Subject: in the bosom of the Lord ... From: cq To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 12:53:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How to stay abreast of the competition? Who ter say? www.dreamwater.net/planetqwerty/Images/tprfTitLogo.gif

Subject: now where'd that pic go? From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 14:17:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: www.dreamwater.net/planetqwerty/Images/tprfTitLogo.jpg

Subject: jeezonagerbil... sorry 'bout this folks From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 15:12:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: mama remind me! www.dur.ac.uk/c.q.giles/tprfTitLogo.gif

Subject: Excellent! From: Jim To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 15:23:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good work, Chris. Good improvement on Dave's orange-tips. I wonder if Maharaji's seen this yet? Too funny. But it needs some permanent placement somewhere.

Subject: Excellent? well, dammit, I persevered ... From: cq To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 15:40:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Man you would not believe how much trouble I had getting that pic online. Time to get a new host server methinks (one that can handle not just jpegs, but tifs, gifs and bmps as well). OK. Got there in the end. Now how about this - Divine Light Mission - DLM superseded by Elan Vital Incorporated - EVI. One much the same as the other? I'd say so. OK, time for an anagram: If DLM=EVI, what's that spell? (memories of Woodstock?) I said what's that spell? DLM=EVI ? M=DEVIL !!!!! Ha hahahahahahahhahahhah ... (echoing maniacal laughter) Later ... don't sweat it folks, it's just a coincidence. thinks ... tell it to the Goo!

Subject: New pic of Avatars in And It Is Divine From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:47:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Click on the above link and then go to the last picture which is listed on the left hand menu. These guys are in God consciousness - you can tell! And It Is Divine www.geocities.com/lord_haharaji/Hoho/Gallery/index.htm

Subject: Perfecto! Sir D From: New-Age Redneck To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 12:48:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Shame on me.... I'd never experienced the bliss of those holy personages and pictures..... ohhhhhh, the bliss deep within-inside. I especially liked the 'flying ace' and 'two tier toilets.' They answer two of my unanswered questions: Where are we going, dear M? What do you really think of us, oh lard-butt? Really well done, Dave.... :)

Subject: The 'Glums'? Guy on right is Bhole Ji From: Carl To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 10:47:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The guy on the left is Satpal's oldest son Shradhey Ji. But that is Bhole Ji for sure on the right.

Subject: You're right of course From: Sir Dave To: Carl Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 11:13:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought ol' Bal Bagwan Ji had changed a bit. I'll correct that and also include a good pic of Satpal too.

Subject: being around Maharaji From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 08:47:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought I'd just bring this over from EPO for people to read in case they haven't already seen it. It was in a post from Disculta,(hope you don't mind, Disculta) May 2001. One of my best friends in the world, who wants to remain anon for a little longer, but reads here and will soon post, sent me these e-mails about the experience of being an instructor for Maharaji. After the first one, I asked his permission to post it, and he sent me the second, plus permission. Warning, this is powerful stuff: First letter: 'There was a lot I liked in 5. Talk of the goings on at Amaroo made me feel a bit ill. The whole vibe of a middle school prom and the jealousies and social hegemony spured on by position and power plays... Yech, my attachment to that crap is still pretty strong, and was in fact a useful tool in extricating myself from the cult. The goings on at instructor trainings brought up more sucky feelings in me than I could stand. Some of it was truly terrible. Once, during a heated disscussion over the value of Psychology, during a break, a particular instuctor approached me at lunch with the most venemous look on his face. He started yelling at me in the lunchroom projecting his life's hate for anything smacking of self examination, targeting me out of his belief that I was one of those secretly against Maraji because I dealt with such things in my personal work. (In the conference, Maraji bit Psych. and anyone who practiced any form of it in the ass pretty hard.) Now this guy had his opportunity to vent years of hatred on me, somehow missing the fact that we're in the same room together, ostensibly for the same purpose. A lot of people were castigated at that conference, anyone who dealt with ' the mind' OOOOga booooga! Funny, the one forum letter talks of how regimented the programs and speakers had become... That was Loring Bakers -and a number of others- greatest criticism of me as an instructor; that I was too much myself, too much of me was in the presentation! (maybe that's because I cannot get up and speak to anybody like an automaton!) Whew, I can still feel my anger over that! Well, in fact, a lot of the anger I developed over that kind of poop gave me the strength to split. I wish your latvian get together was at another time, later in the summer.' Second letter: 'I guess the point of my expressing it is, how ironic it is that M. who speaks eloquently of how things fit together so beautifully in nature and life, seeks in his own personality, to divide and conquer in order to control. While trashing the study of psychology, and denigrating anyone involved with it, he created a division amongst the instructors that demonized those who had inclinations or experience there, that created deep levels of mistrust. In fact, his personality, like anyone's, was obviously run by the same defense mechanisms we all have. And like most, he seemed oblivious to them. All this was going on around the time of great family difficulty, as it was apparent in his sarcastic remarks that he and Marolyn were having problems. I believe that it was recommended that they get counseling. I think he resented that. Thus, all Psychologists were 'bad'. Pretty basic stuff. Actually, in hindsight, I remember - between bouts of anger that he would do that - feeling both surprised and sad that the 'Lord' would have a personality so riddled with defensivness. What was he so insecure about? But I dismissed all that quickly, feeling guilty myself for even attempting to understand the 'divine personality' in the same terms as I would anyone else. A number of other instructors however, came up to me and let me know they felt M. was dismissive and in fact needed help, and were talking to someone close enough to him to see if he could be convinced to receive counseling. Many others of course saw that as crass arrogance, and I was too confused by my own unwillingness to admit that what I was seeing was true. I was too insecure myself in M.'s presence to trust my own intelligence. Therefore, I denied and denied, casting myself into a terrible inner turmoil. I cried at night sometimes, to ease the pressure of fighting within myself over the seeming contradictions I saw. How can his behavior be so ... well, petty? I could understand him having emotional concerns and relationship problems, but to project them amongst his instructors and set them against eachother to fight and act out his own problems? That seemed so like the behavior exhibited in the unhealthy family structures of abusers and alcoholics. The secrets, (there were many) the need for M to be fawned over, (a lot!) the parties and such where the competition to be M.'s favorite, or have him notice you was indescribably thick as custard... It made me sick. In fact, after a while of being exposed to it, I hated being around him. My internal pressure increased the more I witnessed his petty behavior and felt the emotional competition among the instructors, the 'family' of M.'s world. Once, I won a contest – I scored highest on an instructor test - and won the 'opportunity' to have lunch with M. I couldn't eat. I couldn't talk to him. He seemed to dislike the whole thing as much as I did. It was all so contrived. There I was, in front of all the other Inst. having jumped highest over a stick, now getting the reward of sitting, with a few other notables, at M's table. People all around the room would turn around to look, as if for that one hour, I was a movie-star, the envy of everyone in the room. Along with the others at the table, I tried to make some small talk to 'open the door' and try to get comfortable. M. was disinterested, stared off in the distance - was somewhere else - and I felt like a big idiot. The whole thing, the pretense of it all was revolting. So I scarfed down my food, got up and left.It took every ounce of courage in me to walk out of that room. Every eye was on me. I had forty five minutes or so of 'bliss time' left, and I walked out on it, walked away from the Lord. The struggle within myself was tearing me apart. Were my perceptions correct? Did M. act like an insecure middle school bully, a hurt child not able to admit to his pain, afraid to simply show everyone his vulnerability and admit it like anyone. Were the other people in the room just being themselves, or was I right in sensing the dysfunctional family dynamics I felt was rampant there. Was I just full of my own shit? Was it all just my projection and I just couldn't handle it? I went outside and broke down, sobbing in disgust and bewilderment, unable to admit that the whole gathering looked and felt like the worst nightmares of my childhood, something I vowed never again to participate in for the rest of my life. Now, here it was again, as the answer to my prayer to serve God. I was heartbroken. At that evening's party, while M was surrounded by adoring women waiting on him hand and foot, lighting his cigarettes, pouring him drinks, and he enjoyed himself by making the guys do stupid humiliating things. Again, I questioned myself. Am I just jealous? Is it that I really want those girls to be fawning around me? Again, the same nausea overwhelmed me and I went back to my room. I wanted to be an instructer. I believed in knowledge, but I was deeply disturbed and afraid inside, because I was so confused about M. I juggled that pain for the next three years, giving talks and avoiding M. as much as I could. Yes, if you want, print this.... I feel too sick to my stomach even now to continue writting. More later... Disillusioned.' I think it all adds up to a clear picture, in the light of Bob Mishler's tapes, and in a way also in light of Maharaji's character and his own seeming confusion over his sense of identity. Love to all, Livia

Subject: Good grief!!! From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 14:31:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good grief!!! Thanks again to Disculta's friend for telling his difficult and troubling story. I recall this was posted some time ago, but alongside Dettmer's take on TPRF and Mishler's observations in 1976, a sharper picture of M emerges. I remember rationalizing M's behaviour with clever aphorisms such as: The closer you get to the flame, the hotter the fire and a favorite in Miami, The most powerful winds are closest to the calm eye of the hurricane. Calm eye indeed! Now his abusive behavior seems pathological and cannot be rationalized by any sane person. No wonder he dissed psychotherapy so much. To act as he has, he is obviously sitting on a powder keg of anger/grief and simply can't face it. Richard, amateur therapist

Subject: Is this in *BEST OF FORUM*??? From: RichMandrake To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 14:04:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It Definitely Should Be..Right Up near the TOP..a Beautiful..Powerful..Sincere...Sickening Post...

Subject: It's on EPO/yacht/forums [nt] From: Livia To: RichMandrake Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 17:51:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Whow! Around Maharaji ALL IS HELL From: salsa To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 11:52:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: thanks livia for posting this here. Amazing how the stupid, greedy asshole tortures people. Maharaji doesn't understand much of the 'world' ....and he is yet to be surprised by us....further. I hope we hear more from the instructor. very powerful stuff. At that evening's party, while M was surrounded by adoring women waiting on him hand and foot, lighting his cigeretts, pouring him drinks, and he enjoyed himself by making the guys do stupid humiliating things.... nice master of truth. that is the truth of life, aha. EAT SHIT MAHARAJI, YOU LOSER. YOU, PATHETIC BEING!

Subject: Re: Whoa! Around Maharaji ALL IS HELL From: Marshall To: salsa Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 13:17:00 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Disculta, This is kind of interesting to me '...making the guys do stupid humiliating things...' If you are around to read this Disculta, what, pray tell were the stupid humiliating things he had the 'guy's' do, while he, so to speak, monopolized the attention of all the ladies. This is so nauseating, like Disculta more or less said, What's up with all the childish, highschool, popularity contest vibe. How base!

Subject: Re: Whoa! Around Maharaji ALL IS HELL From: salsa To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 18:44:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i am not disculta.

Subject: Huh??? From: Marshall To: salsa Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 19:01:15 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Hello? Disculta is the person who was in instructor training at Amaroo. The person who I was refering to in my post. The same person that Livia quoted from in her post. The same person who witnessed the 'women pouring drinks for gmj while he humiliated the guy's' that you refered to in your post. Get it. Capiche? Do you agree with CPG about my mental ecumen(sic), or something?

Subject: The Prem Rawat Foundation From: Michael Dettmers To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 09:16:57 (EDT) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: I’ve had a chance to reflect about the Prem Rawat Foundation and here is my take. When I was managing things for Maharaji, I came to the conclusion that he needed to became independently wealthy (independent of the need to live on fundraising and gifts, that is), if he really wanted to fulfill his mission as the benevolent giver of Knowledge to anyone who was interested. Even though he insisted that Knowledge has no price tag, followers ended up paying financially and otherwise for as long as they were trapped in his cult with its interpretation of Knowledge -- namely that it can only be realized through surrender to the Master as expressed in gratitude and participation (formerly referred to as devotion through service and financial support). Therefore, with the assistance of professional advisors and a great staff, we developed and implemented a strategy that was designed to make him independently wealthy. Once this goal was achieved, my presumption was that he would no longer need to do any fundraising whatsoever. He could use his money to pay for everything he wanted, whether personal or connected with giving people Knowledge. Of course, the seed money for creating this financial independence came from the gifts bestowed upon him from thousands of his devoted followers, but especially from those who owned businesses and gave him a stake in their various enterprises. The fruits of this strategy began to manifest at the time I left, so I know it had the potential to make him fabulously wealthy. Once freed from the need to engage in never ending fundraising, he could get rid of the DLM/Élan Vital type organizations he always detested and, in doing so, put his past behind him and re-invent his identity. Although he embraced that aspect of the strategy that was designed to make him personally wealthy and would do away with the need for Élan Vital, he was ambivalent and uncertain about how to re-invent his personal identity for fear that, if he weren’t Maharaji, who would worship him and give him money. I can only assume that he finally came to the conclusion that people in the West are no longer interested in the ‘surrender to the guru’ approach to spiritual enlightenment, and he began a process of systematically reinterpreting his past. Of all the lies and revisions that were put forth over the past few years, in this regard, I don’t believe Maharaji was ever comfortable with the attempt to justify his legitimacy as a bona fide guru by expounding upon the purity of his lineage. Maharaji doesn’t really believe that he was appointed as his father’s successor or that he inherited his father’s mantle. He often made the point to me that “no master walks in another master’s footsteps,” and that “a master has to make his own way.” Consequently, I believe that he has secretly resented that his accomplishments (as he sees them) were never fully recognized as the fruits of his own efforts and abilities. Instead, they were diminished because they were seen as achievements by a divine or supernatural person. In other words, his ego was bruised because it was trapped in a role he both relished and resented, even though it was the role and all that that implied, especially in the 70’s and early 80’s, that brought him the undeserved love and financial rewards that he squandered, abused and manipulated for his own selfish ends. We now learn that he has dropped the title “Maharaji” and has created the Prem Rawat Foundation. Assuming that he has amassed considerable wealth, I think this move is somewhat predictable. Having lived in the USA for so many years, I think he now fancies himself as a successful entrepreneur who has made it on his own a la Bill Gates. He has decided to shed the pretense of the guru charade and present himself as the benevolent giver of a gift he now calls “self-knowledge” through his newly created Foundation. In this new interpretation, he does not need to be Maharaji to lend legitimacy to who he is and what he does. He is Prem Rawat, a successful investor, inventor, and entrepreneur who employs some of his wealth to help make the world a better place. To that end, he has created the Prem Rawat Foundation in much the same way that many self-made men create Foundations to further some noble cause and, in doing so, leave behind a legacy. Will it work? I doubt it. As long as he continues to deny his past, and fails to act responsibly and accountably for the harm he has caused others, his past will continue to haunt him. Strangely, he continues to proceed as if the internet doesn’t exist or matter. His efforts to silence his critics by attacking them personally and shutting down internet sites that expose the blatant lies and revisionism he is promulgating about his past identity and the source of his wealth, have failed miserable. If anything, his critics will only become more vocal. If Maharaji were acting sincerely and authentically, before reinventing his persona as a public figure, he would first come clean with all of the people who believed in him and accepted him as he once presented himself. He would do this in open forums where he engaged in genuine dialogue, taking full responsibility for the negative consequences his assumed role as Maharaji produced in peoples lives, without fear of admitting his mistakes and apologizing for them. As an independently wealthy person, he would set up the Prem Rawat Foundation and appoint a Board of Trustees to adjudicate any legitimate claims brought forward by people who suffered financially and otherwise by following he, whom he now admits, is not, and was never, who and what he claimed to be. But, of course, Maharaji will never admit his mistakes, nor will he ever be proactive in righting the wrongs he has committed. Just look at how he has handled the Jagdeo matter. By proceeding as he is, he is simply perpetuating his role in life as a master con artist who has, once again, assumed a new identity to perpetuate his fraud.

Subject: My responses to your questions From: Michael Dettmers To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 12:44:05 (EDT) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: Some of you have asked some interesting and challenging questions to which I will offer my considered opinions without any pretense that what I have to say is the truth of the matter. Let me also say that I agree with jerry’s comment that my posts are not, and should not be considered, on a ‘higher plane’ than anyone else’s. Janet wants to know if my “team of advisors set him up so well, so self sustaining, that even if everyone deserted him right now, and all financial support ended, today, that he would not feel any financial change, no loss, no damage, thanks to how his income was set up?” I don’t know what his actual wealth or net worth is today but, in theory, her assumption is correct. Having said that, I take no special credit for helping Maharaji become independently wealthy. The real credit, if that is the correct way to characterize it, goes to those who supported him in big and small ways for so many years and especially to those who gave Maharaji a stake in their successful business ventures and, in doing so, made themselves and their shareholders, including Maharaji, wealthy. My team and I simply facilitated and organized this process. To cq and others, let me assure you that there was nothing illegal about this, and Maharaji paid whatever taxes were due on the proceeds. I considered this approach a better alternative to the never-ending fundraising campaigns with the accompanying need to distinguish between gifts to Maharaji, and donations to Élan Vital. My objective was to help Maharaji fulfill his stated desire to make Knowledge free with no financial strings attached, either before or after. cq: also wonders how my insider status could be “useful in making sure his current financial incarnation of 'The Prem Rawat Foundation' DOESN'T qualify for tax exemption.” Whatever my insider status was, it has long since become outdated. Financial and legal structures are not static, but evolve with changing times, requirements, laws and circumstances. I am quite certain that, as Maharaji’s wealth increased, so too did the means by which it is structured. But I have no reason to believe that he and his advisors, some of whom are the same people I worked with, would do anything illegal. Regarding the Prem Rawat Foundation, I don’t know what its legal structure is or is intended to be. If, however, it’s stated aims and objectives meet the standards for tax exemption, and if its administrators abide by those guidelines, there is not much anyone can do to prevent it. For me, the issue surrounding Maharaji’s accumulation of wealth is an ethical, not a legal, issue and, in many respects, the ethical issue extends beyond his accumulation of wealth. However pure and honest his intentions may have been when he began his mission, I presume that being worshiped and having his every whim obeyed from the time he was born must have warped his psyche. By the time I left, Maharaji was imbued with cynicism and arrogance, exacerbated, no doubt, by his excessive drinking. He appeared unmoved and without any appreciation for the tremendous amount of genuine love, care and devotion that was directed towards him. He simply took for granted that it was his due to be worshiped and showered with money. If anything, his attitude was that his devotees were not grateful enough for the opportunity to serve him. It was with this in mind that I came to the conclusions I did regarding his motives for creating the Prem Rawat Foundation. He sees himself as the center of the universe and everyone else is just a pawn in his game. Lesley asked what I thought and felt “about the way a false front was presented to the bulk of premies over how their donations were used, did you clearly realise this was happening at the time?” Maybe I’m naďve, but I always assumed that premies knew, for the most part, how their gifts and donations were being used or squandered, depending upon your perspective at the time. The residences, cars, and planes were on public display, and many premies were involved in building and/or maintaining them. Certainly the premies who gave Maharaji a stake in their businesses did so willingly and with the full knowledge that he was free to do with the proceeds as he liked. I understand that he has attempted to keep his $7 million dollar yacht a secret (an asset that was acquired long after I left) but presumably it was purchased with his own money and not the proceeds of any special fundraising drive. Of course, the x-rated stuff was kept secret, but then, how much does a case of cognac cost compared to a jet or a yacht. cq says I “seem to be saying that the way PR has gone (Prem Rawat, that is) is the way (I) wanted him to go, ie to re-invent himself.” I never recommended that Maharaji re-invent himself by dropping his title and reverting to his legal name. I felt strongly that he would be more effective in communicating his message if he dropped all of the trappings of guru worship and engaged with people more openly, fostering dialogue and understanding, rather than pontification on high as a diving oracle. Livia asked: “I distinctly remember him saying that there was always a 'satguru' in this world. Are you now saying he never even believed this in the first place??? And if he doesn't believe he is part of the 'lineage', then by what authority does he feel he can forbid the premies from revealing the techniques to anyone they like, when, as he must know, they can be found in books?” In the beginning, I’m sure that he bought into the orthodox notion about there always being a satguru in the world, that his father was the satguru before him, and that he is now the living satguru or master. It was an identity that he learned to embody from the time he was born. However, by dropping his title and creating the Prem Rawat Foundation, he is declaring that he no longer intends to be bound by that tradition. It's as if the Queen of England decided to abolish the monarchy, live on her accumulated wealth, and offer her services to England as a goodwill ambassador. That’s fine, but how did she accumulate her wealth in the first place, and what responsibility does she have to explain herself to her former subjects about her decision? Obviously, some will hail her decision, others will be disappointed, some will be angry or confused, but all who supported her and bowed to her deserve and will demand an explanation. Many, no doubt, will also demand an accounting of her finances and accumulated wealth because she was entitled to them only as the rightful heir to the throne, not as an ordinary citizen. Likewise, Maharaji is free to do what he wants, but he has an ethical responsibility to explain his actions and account for the wealth he accumulated while posing as Maharaji. I wouldn’t hold my breath, however, waiting for him to act responsibly in this matter.

Subject: ... say WHAT??? From: cq To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 14:36:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, you say that you '... have no reason to believe that he and his advisors, some of whom are the same people I worked with, would do anything illegal'. The death of the bicyclist in India (which none of us knew about until you reported it here) may have been an accident, but the way M and his honchos covered it up WAS illegal wouldn't you say? Yet you have 'no reason' to believe he those around him would do anything illegal? Elan Vital has claimed exemption from US taxes for many years, based on the 'religious organisation' status that the IRS afforded them. Yet for at the last couple of years, that same 'religious organisation' has been benefiting financially from that exempt status, while presenting a totally different story to the public who line their pockets. The Maha says that knowledge 'is not a religion ... has nothing to do with spirituality', yet happily goes on fronting an organisation that claims to the taxman to BE a religious organisation. Now tell me that ain't illegal.

Subject: Re: ... say WHAT??? From: Michael Dettmerws To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 15:45:47 (EDT) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: Mike, you say that you '... have no reason to believe that he and his advisors, some of whom are the same people I worked with, would do anything illegal'. I was specifically referring to me, my team, and the lawyers and professional advisors who were involved in structuring and managing Maharaji’s financial affairs. Of course the hit and run accident was illegal but you can be sure that his lawyers and financial advisors in the USA and Europe were never made aware of it. The cover-up was orchestrated in India by Sampuranand and his co-horts. There were always plenty of premies around Maharaji who were ready to bend the rules in order to serve him, and many often did. Too much of my time, in fact, was spent cleaning up such messes. As for Élan Vital violating its tax exempt status, well good luck if you want to pursue that issue. As I’ve indicated several times in the past, Élan Vital was audited by the IRS more than once when I was involved and each time it satisfied the auditors that it was operating within the rules and regulations that apply to a 501C3 type organization. Perhaps that has changed since I left, but I would be surprised if it has. Maharaji and the Directors and Officers of Élan Vital have too much to loose if they were prosecuted for such violations.

Subject: Uh oh -- maybe Dettmers IS a plant! From: Jim To: Michael Dettmerws Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 15:51:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji and the Directors and Officers of Élan Vital have too much to loose if they were prosecuted for such violations. Where'd THAT premieism come from?! :)

Subject: Re: My responses to your questions From: Livia To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 14:02:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Michael, for your answers. I feel a bit clearer now; your final point is spot on - he should absolutely explain, apologise, and either donate to charity or use for the spreading of the Knowledge most if not all of his wealth, if he truly believed himself to be just an ordinary person with a unique message. I wonder why then, if he is now just an ordinary person, he would oppose people revealing the techniques? His point previously was that they don't work 'without his grace'. If he has now come to the conclusion that he is an ordinary person, then grace has to go too. The meditation would then work in exactly the same way with or without Maharaji as a teacher, wouldn't it? You see, he's still trying to have it both ways. No more 'perfect master' concept, but exclusive rights over the teaching of Knowledge. Just who does he think he is, I wonder? It still doesn't really make any sense, however you look at it. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: The Prem Rawat Foundation From: janet To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 05:55:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As always, welcome--and warm regards to see you here again. Michael-- You have unfailingly come here with your unique insight that no one else has had. Whatever the news you bring, it is always, far and away, on a plane above whatever else we receive here, to ponder and discuss. Your comments in this new post , at least for me, are completely changing my lifelong conception of the man. Perhaps you and Bob Mischler were the only two men ever to stand that close to him, and not be totally blinded by the glare. Your revelations about his views regarding his father's role, and the lineage going back earlier, and especially about his declarations that ' a master never follows in another master's footsteps', are really putting me in a brown study from which I find it hard to move beyond. This changes so many things... It seems to me that this is a guy who was born into a family business, and in his own evolution as a person, took that business and used it, with overweening ambition, to make it a means to get everything he wanted to have in life. What a strange and illustrative tale, of using whatever life gives you to work with. Strange too, because purportedly, Shri Hans said of his son, when the boy was tiny, that 'one day Sant Ji will take my message to the whole world'. It makes me wonder, was that just hyperbole, or did Hans have some kind of precognnition about that? What you are saying describes someone who began life as his father's son, but as men will do, peeled away and grew out into his own man, while strangely retaining his father's order to 'take what I have shown you to the world'. And here he is, still doing it, in ways his father never could: he is still fulfilling that command of his long dead father. He is on satellite TV, viewable by anyone who has Dishnet. They can learn of him that way, and come. He gets himself in to Leaders magazine, a vehicle conceivably capable of getting what he does into the hands of world leaders, at the very highest echelon. And thereby, again, fulfills his father's first, last and interim orders, to 'take this to the world'. It truly gives one pause, to absorb. And all the while, he has operated on his own drive, his own hungry ambition, his personal appetites to serve himself, whatever the desire. He got expensive, fast, rich cars. He started drinking at 13. He got wahtever he asked for. He got rid of his mother by the time he was 16 and then he married a blonde, busty american stewardess. He learned to fly. He acquired a home in malibu, and in England at Reigate, and Miami, and any other land he wanted to have a home to go to. He started having children at 17. And when he tired of his wife, he started having trysts with whoever caught his eye, and dispensing with them like used napkins. He could rake in 250,000 american dollars just by sitting down and letting people file by for a couple of hours. He could say whatever he wanted to, whatever he felt like, whatever came to mind, and have it be worshipped and craved like it was scriptural revelation. No one and nothing could stop him. And still he wanted more. And he got more! Michael, are you saying that you and your team of advisors set him up so well, so self sustaining, that even if everyone deserted him right now, and all financial support ended, today, that he would not feel any financial change, no loss, no damage, thanks to how his income was set up??? ... ... ...that's something to think hard and long about. That changes something we have believed here for a long time. Michael, what does he think about Knowledge? I mean, he, himself: What does he really think of it? Does he have any actual regard for it, value it in itself? Or is it just something to be controlled and used, as a means to pull people in? Does he regard it like a product, like something he makes and distributes, the way, say, Bill Gates regards Microsoft code, or the Medellin regard cocaine? I wonder wheher he believes in it, or whether he thinks it's the family business he sells around the world, the way a son, born into a rug merchant family, would accept selling rugs as his lot in life, but pour all his ambition into it, to hustle and deal and get where he wanted to in life, by using it. to make fortune upon fortune? It's so strange to contemplate the ramifications of what you're telling us, from your unmatched position of closeness to him, when you were his righthand man. I can actually see some kernal of truth to the idea that he had to work against the tide of all the indian cultural trappings, being brought over to the west with the entourage of his mother, and his family, and all his father's mahatma's, some of whom went ahead of him..and having to work within that for the first several years, as he didn't know anything else, but quickly saw that life was better in the west, and then fell to machinating on how to pull things from the indian way over into the Rich American Way. And never asking if it was better for the people out there who believed in him, who were listening to him. Only aiming at making it better for him, and his ambitions. And if he really does take seriously this order to take Knowledge to the whole world, to get it to every strata on earth before his life is over, then he is either the maddest megalomaniac the world has seen in our lifetime, or he really was born to do what his father presaged about him in childhood. It is truly strange, and i can't pull away from staring at it. Does he have any belief in Destiny? Did he ever say? Do you have any sense of who he thinks he is? Or what? This new piece of yours is deeply disturbing and provocative for me. It is setting me to thinking about things, and about him, in a way I didn't expect to have to debate with myself. It is so strange. It seems that we are irrelevant to him-- Which makes me ask, then what IS relevant to him? Does he really think Knowledge can save the world? Is fulfilling that driving ambition really his centerpoint? What is it that is the fire that makes him do what he does? Is it ego? Is it belief? Is it just fortune and money? What would he do if the money vanished? If it stopped coming in? What would he do? What would become the centerpice of his life if faced with that? Would he still try to push Knowledge anyway? What do you think, Michael? Do you have any responses or insights to these, Michael? Janet Schwartz

Subject: You're overdoing it, IMO From: gerry To: janet Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 10:51:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Although Michael's post are sterling, I think this nonsense about his posts being on a 'higher plane' is insulting gopi-ish horse whappy. Many others here have contributed just as significantly as Michael has and I rather dislike your statement. As for the rest, well I don't understand your confusion or fascination. OK, maybe the fascination, like craning one's neck to see an auto accident, but not the mystic junk you seem to be piling on it. The Filament is not 'fulfilling his destiny' in some precognitive manner set forth by his father. And Janet, the 'purportedly' in your quote about Prem taking the K to the world' is the key world. It's most likely made up propaganda like the rest of the Super K bullshit. You give the whole thing way too much legitimacy with your starry eyed wonder and amazement. Quite frankly, the whole thing is not worth that kind of headspace if you ask me. It borders on infatuation. I can't help but feel you still believe a lot of this guru/knowledge/god happy crappy and I think that is to your detriment.

Subject: Re: You're overdoing it, IMO From: Livia To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 13:44:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry, the reason that some people including Janet and myself are utterly bemused today is that as far as we were concerned, Maharaji did genuinely believe that he was satguru, whatever. We based our whole lives on it, for Christ's sake. To then hear that he had other ideas while still purporting to be the satguru should be disquieting to say the least. I don't think being disturbed by this latest revelation means one still believes that he ever was a 'perfect master'. Obviously he isn't and never was. It's what he thought as opposed to what he said at the time that is key here, and I for one think it does matter. However, Mike's latest post seems to suggest that he did believe it in the beginning, and that's certainly how it seemed to me. It would be interesting to know when he began to question it, though. If he was recommending surrender at the time he no longer believed in the lineage, this is going to make a lot of people even angrier than they already are.

Subject: Janet's above questions for Michael From: Livia To: janet Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 07:48:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was going to post some of the same questions, but Janet has said it all and more. Your post, Michael, has started some very serious re-evaluations off in my head, and to quite honest, it's all pretty disturbing. Actually I will ask those questions, so here goes. 1 What, exactly, did Maharaji truly believe himself to be? 2 What, exactly, did Maharaji truly believe the Knowledge to be? 3 What, exactly, does he believe himself to be now? 4 What, exactly, does he believe the Knowledge to be now? I appreciate that you may not know the answers to questions 3 and 4, because you haven't been involved with Maharaji closely for some years now. However, I feel that a lot of us here would appreciate your answers to questions 1 and 2. The point is that back then, say from 71 - 83, we all know that he repeatedly claimed to be the "Perfect Master". He also used to state that there was always a 'Perfect Master' in the world, and that he was the current one. He used to ask for total surrender to himself, especially in the years from 1977. This tended to support his claims to be the 'one true perfect master'. He also used to state that the Knowledge was the 'one true Knowledge'. Even at Nottingham in 2001 he said that this is the 'only Knowledge'. In your post above, you imply that he wanted to break away from the mould set for him by his father. But if he was a different kind of master, what exactly did he think he was? Did he think he had supreme powers? And if he didn't, what in his mind justified his demanding total surrender? Why did he ever say things like: 'When a premie dies and God comes to claim him/her, Maharaji will be there saying 'No! That one's mine!' ' My head is completely boggled. Please clarify, Mike, if you possibly can. With love, Livia

Subject: Good questions From: Nigel To: janet Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 07:48:40 (EDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: I'd be interested in any answers Michael feels like giving. meanwhile, Janet, with regard to just one paragraph... Strange too, because purportedly, Shri Hans said of his son, when the boy was tiny, that 'one day Sant Ji will take my message to the whole world'. It makes me wonder, was that just hyperbole, or did Hans have some kind of precognnition about that? I would dismiss the second possibly out of hand (not believing in precognition). As for the first - yes - it could be boilerplate hyperbole on the part of Shri Hans. My preferred take on it, though, is that that this particular 'memory' was fabricated later in support of Prem's guruship claim over Bubblegumji's. As was that nonsense (Prem's own claim) about Prem hearing Shri Hans' voice at his father's funeral appointing him his successor. In guruland you can get away with saying whatever you like for as long as people are prepared to believe you.

Subject: The Perpetual Revisionists Foundation [nt] From: Dermot To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 01:42:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Superb analysis, Michael From: Happie Frenchie To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 18:45:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The King of Con's past is bound to boomerang back in this face, that is the sole consolation I see to his dismal propensity to always reinvent history. The more he denies his past, the more the elastic is being stretched backward, and when it will fly back in his face, the damage will be all the greater. The weak spots in his armor are his ego and his greed. And as they say, you can fool some of the people, some of the time, but not all of the peope, all of the time. Rawat, it's only a matter of time before your fall. And the sooner it will come, the better it will be -- unfortunatly it will leave thousands of sincere and good people laying in the dust, whose only crime is their naiveté and their inability to see you for what you are : a con man with no heart and no ethics.

Subject: Re: The Prem Rawat Foundation From: Livia To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 18:26:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of all the lies and revisions that were put forth over the past few years, in this regard, I don’t believe Maharaji was ever comfortable with the attempt to justify his legitimacy as a bona fide guru by expounding upon the purity of his lineage. Maharaji doesn’t really believe that he was appointed as his father’s successor or that he inherited his father’s mantle. I find this part of your extremely interesting post (thanks, Michael) quite mind-boggling. To think that down all those years he didn't really believe that he was part of that lineage... Why, then, was Swami Swarupanand recently mentioned on his website? Why did Maharaji mention the lineage as recently as in Nottingham, England only last year? I'll dig out the quote and post it tomorrow. I'm sorry, none of this is making sense. I don't disbelieve you at all; after all this whole thing is so full of lies, revisionism and cynical volte-faces. I just can't understand how he could possibly expect any further devotion/gratitude without seeming to remain part of this supposed lineage. I distinctly remember him saying that there was always a 'satguru' in this world. Are you now saying he never even believed this in the first place??? And if he doesn't believe he is part of the 'lineage', then by what authority does he feel he can forbid the premies from revealing the techniques to anyone they like, when, as he must know, they can be found in books? Why should he, as a 'self-styled' master, believe that he has some special power to make the Knowledge work? Love, Livia

Subject: what I recall about giving money From: Susan To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 19:11:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't give much money. I was a teenager. I gave a lot of time in 'service'. But I do recall clearly that premies were told to address gifts to the Guru to 'Prem Pal Singh Rawat' and that this was strongly encouraged. These gifts were clearly for his upkeep and toys, not the mission. Other checks were to EV or Divine Light Mission...I recall less requests for those actually. But it was a long time ago. It was never a secret he liked expensive toys and expected premies to support his lilas. None of this excuses anything. Just makes me sick I bought the whole trip.

Subject: great post (nt) From: Susan To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:43:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: A question for Michael From: Lesley To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:37:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember, not so many years ago, responding to my father's remark that Maharaji was getting rich out of us by replying that Maharaji came from a wealthy family, and had become richer out of his own separate and independent business efforts. This lie is commonly accepted as the truth amongst premies, and the fact that Maharaji has a seven million dollar yacht is not commonly known amongst premies. Those premies, nonetheless, are the ones that have been donating money consistently for thirty years. Rawat made use of your efforts to amass his own wealth, thanks for having the guts to say so. Your contributions to this forum have done a lot for me personally, to allay the hurt I have felt at realising how conned I have been, because you make the effort to post it, because you are being straight and evidently care. I do have a question, though, one I have wanted to ask you for ages. What did you think, how did you feel about the way a false front was presented to the bulk of premies over how their donations were used, did you clearly realise this was happening at the time?

Subject: Yeah, but Mike ... From: cq To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:24:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, but Mike ... Look, I do appreciate the fact that, in the last couple of years, you've spilt some revealing beans about the Maha, but you seem to be saying that the way PR has gone (Prem Rawat, that is) is the way you wanted him to go, ie to re-invent himself. Well, like you say, if he'd own up to his past abuses of power and influence, it might just be possible for someone (not him though) to re-package the knowledge/meditation techniques in a way that didn't rob them of their credibility (which is what he HAS done, over the decades). All he needs is a charismatic 'silent partner'-type accomplice/spokesperson, one who nobody has ever heard of before, and one who has no provable link with him, to present the meditation to a whole new generation - this time without the sordid history of the dependence-promoting/personality-worshiping fixation that he has hankered for in the past. But, rampant egotist that he is, he's put his own name up there in lights, as in 'The Prem Rawat Foundation', which any punter with half a brain will do a net-search on before deciding one way or the other as to whether he's genuine/trustworthy/credible or not. I guess the TRUE premies (who believe that the benefits of spreading 'Knowledge' are more important than any leader's ego, just might be tempted to start sharing that 'Knowledge' themselves. Poor premies! - it'd be a moral dilemma almost worthy of St Peter - whether to deny their Master, in preference to going about the task of propagating 'Knowledge' in a way that MIGHT have a real impact on the world, instead of just readers of 'Leaders' magazine. What's Rawat hoping for? That some world leader's going to declare him to be the real Messiah after all? That's an cultural Armageddon I wouldn't want to hang around for! PS, I know you have a lot of inside gen on how Rawat's financial empire was set up, some of which could be useful in making sure his current financial incarnation of 'The Prem Rawat Foundation' DOESN'T qualify for tax exemption. Or would that be a breach of the non-disclosure agreement you apparently signed with him/DLM/EVI? If so, isn't that tantamount to harbouring a criminal? Tough question, but someone should ask it. Regards, Chris

Subject: Chris, please email me From: Marianne To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:37:44 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Talk soon.

Subject: Bang on the nail CQ.. and Mike?? From: Moley To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:34:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PS, I know you have a lot of inside gen on how Rawat's financial empire was set up, some of which could be useful in making sure his current financial incarnation of 'The Prem Rawat Foundation' DOESN'T qualify for tax exemption. Or would that be a breach of the non-disclosure agreement you apparently signed with him/DLM/EVI? If so, isn't that tantamount to harbouring a criminal? Sorry Mike, no stress meant. But you must see what this means.

Subject: Two questions Mike... From: Moley To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 15:55:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Therefore, with the assistance of professional advisors and a great staff, we developed and implemented a strategy that was designed to make him independently wealthy. Very interesting. Can you give us more detail on this? Of all the lies and revisions that were put forth over the past few years, in this regard, I don’t believe Maharaji was ever comfortable with the attempt to justify his legitimacy as a bona fide guru by expounding upon the purity of his lineage. Maharaji doesn’t really believe that he was appointed as his father’s successor or that he inherited his father’s mantle. He often made the point to me that “no master walks in another master’s footsteps,” and that “a master has to make his own way.” Consequently, I believe that he has secretly resented that his accomplishments (as he sees them) were never fully recognized as the fruits of his own efforts and abilities. Instead, they were diminished because they were seen as achievements by a divine or supernatural person. Ditto - very interesting. He doesn't believe that his legitimacy comes from his daddy??? His achievments were diminished because they were seen as achievements by a divine or supernatural person. Even more interesting. Kinda tips everything we once believed on it's head - no? Gawd. I bloody wish we could sue the b**t**d

Subject: Blimey... Ok, premies, what do you think..? From: Nigel To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 15:37:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I reckon that, deep down, die-hard premies have been hanging on to this long-conditioned notion that 'Maharaji' (RIP - now Prem Rawat) is still, in a nod-and-a-wink kind of way, living incarnation, god-in-a-bod, future saviour of the whole of humanity etc... The combination of the new ordinary-bloke-self-made-Prem 'foundation' and M.D.'s interpretation/explanation must make that particular rationalisation extremely hard to sustain in these latter days. Interesting times..

Subject: That's what makes them 'saints.' From: New-Age Redneck To: Nigel Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:07:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nigel: '...in these latter days...' Ok, ok, really baaaaaaaddddddd joke.

Subject: Do you shag while posting? ot From: Marianne To: Nigel Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:01:13 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Hi Nig and Moley! How are you? Wot, did one of you head to the fridge for another bottle of chardonnay, and the one left in bed turned on the forum?!! Write and tell me how you are. Many hugs, Marianne

Subject: Well..um..actually...er... (blush) From: Nige To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:08:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well. let's just say you might be surprised (or not.. ..your speculative vignette carries a measure of truth. Spoons works best, we reckon.) Hugs and stuff, Nig and Moles

Subject: Spoons work best?!??! OT From: Marianne To: Nige Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:15:26 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Just how do spoons work best? Do tell. Perhaps this is an 'other forum' topic. Or email. Oh,I got your number during those visits, Nigel! xxxxooo to you both -- so glad you are happy, Marianne

Subject: Of course!!!! One can look over the From: New-Age Redneck To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:15:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: other's shoulder while they are posting in tandem. Makes perfect sense to me.... :) Nige, I hope you guys are having a ball..... no pun intended.

Subject: Re: Of course!!!! One can look over the From: Marianne To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:19:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: oh this spoon business is way beyond this Catholic girl. I think the fires in hell were stoked after these posts!

Subject: Stoked for the hot-tub From: New-Age Redneck To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:53:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nah, what you thought was the fires-of-hell was just my hot-tub flames burning down to fine embers....... so I can spoon my wife in warm water...... Sorry, I musta used just a 'few' too many logs. he he he :)

Subject: Re: PRF From: Gail To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 15:33:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanx for the great read.

Subject: Good to hear from you like this, Mike From: Jim To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 15:07:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great post, like the others said. Two things, though. I think that both yours and Mishler's hopes and plans for Maharaji to clean up his act and re-invent himself were, frankly, a bit 'optimistic'. I don't think he could ever salvage any legitimacy from his particular legacy or history. He was an eight-year-old Lord of the Universe and either that was bunk or it wasn't. Very, very difficult for anyone turning that sow's ear into anything. MAYBE if he jettsioned the whole Knowledge thing altogether and just tried to become some sort of inspirational speaker or something, based, perhaps, on all the special insights he gained as a worshipped avatar, or something like that, it might have worked. But to take that same special sauce and try to say it's still special but not quite that special any longer .... forget it. It never would have worked. Maybe he even sensed that. Two, do you think if I got you a little seed capital you can set those balls in motion for me too? I promise I won't do anything too extravagant. :)

Subject: Re: Good to hear from you like this, Mike From: Bolly Shri To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 06:11:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, seed capital is only peripheral to the game and generally not even essential. The art of being a succesfull con artist is to convince others that your 'product' is worth supporting. I suggest you study objectively other con artists, oh! whoops thats whats happening here isn't it. There are negative aspects to it, being phoney, not knowing if people love you or the persona you sold them etc. Are the rewards worth the trip maybe prem pal alias maha alias lord alias satguru will post here and tell us, and maybe pigs will fly. Love and jai to all

Subject: Jim will want a Gulfstream in nothing flat From: Susan To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:43:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I myself think that design at the divine residence with the glass that goes into the walls so there is nothing in between you and your ocean view sounds 'divine'. Michael can you help me too? I would never want to live in Malibu though. Not my style at all. IF I were a super wealthy leader ( what about that quote he wanted to be neither a leader nor figurehead?) I'd choose some hidden away oasis.

Subject: Who's the bigger fool From: New-Age Redneck To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 14:41:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: EXCELLENT Michael and thank you! Now comes the question.... and it really hurts to think about it: Who is the bigger fool? The twerp that said he could 'show me god' or the twerp (me) that believed him. That really is all that I had ever really desired. Such a simple request. Who would have guessed that so many greedy ass_oles would respond to that desire. Not just M, but the whole lot of them. Every single power hungry 'religous leader' on the face of this earth is guilty of it. Every last one of them.

Subject: NAR, you're still kind of slow, aren't you? From: Jim To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 14:57:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who would have guessed that so many greedy ass_oles would respond to that desire. Isn't that like writing 'moth_rfucker'? Just kidding ... about you being slow, I mean. AFter all, it's not as if you ever followed a teenaged Lord of the Universe or anything, is it? :)

Subject: Jim, you are too kind :) From: New-Age Redneck To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:12:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and observant, too :) Slow? Well, uh, ye.., well, er ahhhhhh.... shut up and deal da cards. :)

Subject: Thanks, Michael From: PatC To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 14:09:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: If Maharaji were acting sincerely and authentically, before reinventing his persona as a public figure, he would first come clean with all of the people who believed in him and accepted him as he once presented himself. He would do this in open forums where he engaged in genuine dialogue, taking full responsibility for the negative consequences his assumed role as Maharaji produced in peoples lives, without fear of admitting his mistakes and apologizing for them. If you tell a lie and get caught out and immediately apologise, it is not too hard to eat a bit of crow. If you don't fess up but instead tell another lie to cover up the first lie, it get's harder to come clean. The more lies you tell the more you have to lie otherwise the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. His house of cards is a pack of lies. He even tells lies that he doesn't believe himself if he thinks it will work (such as the ''lineage'' which, as you mention, he always derided.) The other thing of course is that the 4,000 diehard western premies who still prop up his house of cards believe (because of what they perceive self-knowledge to be, ie god) that Rawat is ''You Know Who.'' If he came clean he would loose ALL of his western premies and they would all turn on him. He can't come clean without losing everything he has including his money and status. Very nice to hear from you. I hope you are well. Best wishes to you.

Subject: M said privately... From: J McG To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 08:11:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...(and wistfully?) in recent times: 'I could be one of the two or three wealthiest men in the world if I chose. But I have chosen to do this work instead.' (And eschew worldly wealth, presumably (-: ) Which kind of supports Michael's analysis of his self-image.

Subject: Yes, J McG, I'd heard that From: PatC To: J McG Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 13:22:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: M said privately...(and wistfully?) in recent times: 'I could be one of the two or three wealthiest men in the world if I chose. But I have chosen to do this work instead.' That was told to me by our local industrial-strength church-lady. At the time I just thought it was church-lady gossip on a par with, ''M has the biggest (insert your own fantasy here;)) in the world.'' I did hear him say once (to all gathered at an event) that he could just walk away from us and go and be a pilot and that he actually preferred that to being the Master but that he did the Master schpiel because he chose to. Adoring applause. I know two pilots and neither of them are as rich as Rawat. I guess he chose the Master-schpiel because it's more lucrative that piloting.

Subject: Bill Gates is Maha's Guru From: Marshall To: J McG Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 11:00:46 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: What a joke. 'One of the two or three wealthiest men in the world if I chose' But he chose his 'work' instead, how magnanamous of gmj. You know of course why he doesn't have the courage to say the FIRST richest, of course. That's because that honor will cetainly go to Bill Gates for the rest of all of our natural lives including Ratwatt's. Bill Gates' fortune is so immense and untouchable that even Ratty knows better than to compete with him(Gates). In the mahas world where only $$$ really counts the true 'Boss' is Bill Gates, and supposedly goo is a computer expert(?) hahahaha.

Subject: Thanks Michael From: Richard To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 13:54:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Extremely well thought out and articulated as usual. I have certainly been curious what M's former close aides, like yourself, think about the latest organizational reincarnation. I am especially curious after listening to the moving phone conversation with the late Bob Mishler during which he explains why M was not worthy of worship in 1976. The parallels to today are remarkable. From what I know of you and Bob, I am struck by the similarities in both your and his initial passion in serving M and later compassion for M in light of his failings. Apparently M relied on Bob, Donner, yourself and others for the true human beings that you are as well as your organizational skills. For that reason and others, his retreat from his own humanity is quite ironic and continues to astound me. Thanks again for your unique perspective.

Subject: Re: The Prem Rawat Foundation From: bill To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 13:30:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Micheal, This morning I was briefly in the Hartford Public Library where an ex works who has never come to epo. While there, the INFLATION theory of the universe. The universe inflated unimaginally fast from a speck during the first trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a second, then slowed down due to gravity and congealed like jello while continueing to expand. Well, thats what they said. Next read was an article in Atlantic Monthly. Only because it was a report on saddam hussien. Their info was one thing and thier analysis of him was another. Like you, the author made a educated guess on what makes him tick like he does. I think both you and that author would benefit by reading about narcisist behaviours. I did and it sure seems to cover all the elements of guys like prem and saddam. At the core. rawat fits it in the true classic way of one who started in childhood. I see JOE didnt post yet, so I will cover something I am sure he would. Any chance of details on that origional structure of investment you and company put in place? I know Mike Donner is a bit ticked at you for setting him up so well, but I have at least one of your 1977 satsangs and hey, devotees are devotees and we all were thinking alike at that point and all of us did our best to set the bum up.

Subject: TRUE: I just pucked. From: Silvia To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 10:23:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How can ANYBODY deny people like me, who put so many years to follow a deceitful 'master', the right to be angry and to want retribution? I am just starting to realize, to understand in what way he got me trapped. He is accountable. I have 400 videos to prove it! Thanks for your guts to tell the truth. silvia

Subject: Good, hockey is a fine alternative to M From: New-Age Redneck To: Silvia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 17:53:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well said, Silvia! You're darned skippy it's your RIGHT to be angry! Now.... go out there and start pucking! Hockey is a fine sport! :)

Subject: Right on Silvia xx [nt] From: Moley To: Silvia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:11:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: It's very strange From: Dermot To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 03:38:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that none of the Premies on the LIG forum seem inspired or enthused enough to discuss the latest offering from Maharaji.....the tprf.org site. You'd think the place would be buzzing with views, discussions etc and that they'd all come out of the woodwork and share their inspiration or whatever. Instead it's as if the site didn't exist. Wasn't it Cat or someone who mentioned a few weeks/months ago that something stupendous was coming along.....some great interview in some exalted mag....and how it would pretty much alter existence as we know it or something:) (Aye Captain, it's life but not as we know it Jim hahah) If the man himself and his fantastic new web site isn't a springboard for discussing the fantabulous topic that is ....LIFE IS GREAT!!!! then what is? I guess Premies think a FORUM is the last place to actually discuss stuff of interest and relevance.....what the hell eh?.....if Prem Rawat is looking and acting more and more like Rev Syung Businessmoon.....it's all an illusion anyway.... Row the boat, row the boat, row the boat upstream merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily....Life is but a dream (and GREAT).

Subject: Re: It's very strange From: Sir Dave To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 06:26:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The only difference is, Rev Moon has a huge following and is by his own admission, the Lord of the Universe, unashamedly so because when he was released from prison, he was crowned Lord of the Universe in a private ceremony. I think that Prem Rawat's Leaders article and his foundation web site are all backfiring because any outsider can clearly see that it's a Rawat worshipping cult. You see, the premies and the Maha are so attuned to the Avataar/devotee relationship that they can only express that in web sites or articles. They do not understand that to the ordinary person, such worship looks bizarre and most peculiar and unnatural. People don't want to live their lives relying on or worshipping a guru. They want to be independent and free to be their own guru. The bit I've read of the Leaders article reads like some tacky self improvement scam. ''This man can show you peace'' will not work in today's world and people are very wary of such claims. Now if it had been a book about how to get inner peace, that would have been different and people would buy it because they'd have the whole thing under their own control. The Prem Rawat Foundation site is just another Enjoyinglife/ElanVital clone. The slide show is a killer! By the way, is that Glen Whittaker grinning in the first sequence, on the right hand picture at the front in the middle?

Subject: Gratitude v worship From: Livia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 07:45:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They do not understand that to the ordinary person, such worship looks bizarre and most peculiar and unnatural. Spot on, Dave. I showed 'Passages' to my (non-premie) partner, as he was curious and I wanted to see what his reaction would be. He watched it all the way through and was what we in England called 'gob-smacked' by it. He felt the spin was more than tangible; it was blatant. He clearly saw it to be a personality cult, and that was without seeing any actual pranaming. He also thought the premies interviewed looked mentally ill. Another of the videos I've recently watched contained several shots of premies pranaming, and for the first time, something about this made me feel distinctly queasy. The way the premies sit, focussing their attention raptly on Maharaji's face and his every word. The way they leap to their feet the moment he looks like leaving. Of course, I did all these things repeatedly for years upon years, but now to see it objectively leaves a very odd impression, to say the least. The premies do sincerely believe that he is God. If they thought he was just a teacher of a great meditation for whom they felt immense gratitude, they would not behave like this. This is worship, clear and simple, and any premie who tries to deny it is lying through their teeth. Has anybody asked a premie whether they worship him or merely feel gratitude for what he has given them? It would be interesting to hear how they answer. I think I'll try it, and report back. I'd hazard a guess that the answer will be 'gratitude'. From a mindset of worship, it's not surprising that premies like R2 and co find it so impossible to be objective. Even the eminently reasonable sounding CPG is obviously finding it difficult to entertain a single critical thought about Maharaji. 'Gratitude' doesn't pre-empt critical thought. Worship does. Premies reading this should think carefully about what they feel for Maharaji - gratitude or worship? They are not the same thing. Love, Livia

Subject: LIVIA;Gratitude v worship From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 17:21:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Liv, seems like people feel whatever is the given word of the day; now its 'gratitude'......use ta be 'devotion', same game , different name. Love to know what people really thought, in words of their own choosing.

Subject: Re: LIVIA;Gratitude v worship From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 18:00:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV, they don't know what they really think and they don't know how to choose their own words any more. I spoke to a premie on the phone a few weeks ago when all the latest changes were starting to happen. I asked her what she thought about it, and her response was that it was 'all really beautiful'. I thought to myself: 'Yeah and if he'd said he was tripling the organisation, calling himself Guru Maharaj Ji again, reopening the ashrams and telling us all to 'give satsang' again, you would say that was all really beautiful too!!!' My mistake was not to say it. I wonder what she would have said? I'll try it another time. It could be a good way to get a premie to see/admit to themself that they see Maharaji as perfect in everything he does. Or not, most likely. Love to you, Liv

Subject: Addendum From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 08:15:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Any premie taking the time to contemplate whether what they truly feel for Maharaji is gratitude or worship, should then consider this, if the answer is worship. What are you doing, worshipping someone who has amassed a vast fortune on the back of premies' donations, even using offshore bank accounts to safeguard this vast fortune? What are you doing worshipping someone who has acquire a $7 million yacht from premies' donations? Could this Ł7 million not have been better used towards the work of spreading the Knowledge? Wasn't Shri Hans Ji's agya (command) to Maharaji to spend his life dedicated to spreading the Knowledge? For what reason could he possibly not have used these handsome resources towards the purpose for which he says he was born? Consider this too: why do you think the existence of this $7 million yacht has been deliberately hidden from the premies? And how about this, in case you're thinking that these items were bought using money specifically donating to Maharaji for his own use, rather than for the purposes of propagation? 'I testify that everything Maha spent during my time in his office was paid for from fundraising for propagation, I mean everything. Birthday presents for his kids of $45,000, everything. Cars galore ...etc etc But then again I'm a bitter ex so it must all be lies... ?????? Steve Mulley Residence gofor, Maharaji's office employee, West London Community Co-ordinator, Residence Security, Maharaji's escort driver, Darshan Security, Aspirant Co-ordinator, Maharaji's bringer of breakfast, friend of Maha's cook. Ex mug' ' My view, for what it's worth, is that if you immediately conclude that Steve Mulley must as a matter of course be a liar, then you do indeed worship Maharaji, no mistake. And a by-product of that is that as far as Maharaji is concerned, you have completely taken leave of your critical faculties. God help you. Livia

Subject: Re: Addendum From: Gail To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 15:32:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi there! I really enjoyed that post. When was the post from Steve M. first published (I'd like to read it all)? I don't come around that often anymore.

Subject: Re: Addendum From: Livia To: Gail Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:51:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gail, I found it on EPO when I looked up references to the yacht. It was in a forum archive. (Type in 'yacht' etc. where you do a search.) Yes, it blew my mind a bit too. I wonder if this Steve ever posts these days? Love, Livia Love, Livia

Subject: Re: It's very strange From: Op To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 06:57:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sir Dave Don't forget that it is the intention of Ratwa (sp?) in due course to publish a book which will be sold in leading bookstalls around the world. This was highlighted as a future endeavour in the 'Yoram Weiss Happy Hour' a few months back. I guess that Ratwa will try and emulate Deepak Chopra and the fantastic sales that Deepak had in his self-help books. Mind you I wonder what content Ratwa's books will have? Very much doubt they will contain details of the meditation techniques or the need to worship the massa. Stripped of these two things, what do we have left? A cult that simply funnels money to one man, a cult that perverts the course of justice, a cult that seeks to minimise individuality whilst creating a deeply non-democratic hierarchy (x-rating)- an empty shell. Op

Subject: Are you Opie or Old Premie? From: JHB To: Op Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:52:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or someone else? When I first started posting here there was an 'Old Premie' who, if my memory serves me right, shortened her name to Op. Is this her, or, as seems more likely, Opie, who is too busy right now to type the 'i' and 'e'? Just a short note to illustrate the confusion caused by changing names or using similar names to existing posters:) John.

Subject: Re: Are you Opie or Old Premie? From: Opie (soon to metamorphise) To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:34:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John Yes sorry about that. Jim also brought the possible confusion to my attention earlier today. Did not realise that there was an Old Premie in the olden golden days (Forum 1?). I am Occasional Poster is .... Nah forget it - moniker change coming up real soon now. Just like PR from M :) Occasional Poster - not living up to his moniker.

Subject: Maybe you could become RIP... From: Bai Ji To: Opie (soon to metamorphise) Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 03:59:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Regular Interesting Poster !

Subject: Re: Maybe you could become RIP... From: Opie (soon to metamorphise) To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 04:15:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Bai Ji :) Good idea and many thanks for the vote of confidence. I would dearly love to use my real name and just be done with that, but for reasons many know, I feel I can not. It is a real shame that many people feel that they need to protect themselves from possible attack from the cult and their apologists. A certain event very recently relating to someone else unfortunately reconfirms my fears. I post in my real name on various other forums (not related to M, EV,K ...) and it feels natural. Anyway enough of me hijacking this thread, I wish you well in your current endeavours, your posts displays lots of clarity and love. Love, moi

Subject: Would love to have his book.. From: Oprah To: Op Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 07:50:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: on my show. Maybe get him to stop by to plug it (like the plugs of hair in the back of his head). How could a book by him possibly sell? without some sort of public plugging by him or others. Of course the media and intellegencia will research the man and discover EPO et al. I can't wait for the book.

Subject: Re: It's very strange From: Correction To: Op Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 07:47:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My earlier post contains a factual error - I apologise to all readers. Of course the cult does not funnel money to one man alone, this funneling also includes such 'high-ups' such as Raja Ji, gentle brother of two living Satgurus - Sat Pal and Prem Pal. Op

Subject: To recently 'retired' Élan Vital and Visions people From: Richard Rogers To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 20:27:08 (EDT) Email Address: richard@rogers-graphics.com Message: To all of those people who will be displaced as a result of the demise of Élan Vital and cutbacks at Visions, my sincerest good wishes. I imagine you were extremely dedicated and cared about your service positions a lot so you may now be a little disoriented. I send you love and hope the very best for you always. In 1979, when Shri Hans Productions (later SHP and Visions) moved to Agoura Hills, I was let go because I was neither in the ashram nor married. I was told this by someone who fibbed about his marital status in order to stay acredited. If I had either gotten married or separated from my girlfriend and moved into the ashram, I could have continued doing service. My service meant a lot to me but not enough to lie to myself about what I really wanted. I loved my girlfriend as I still do and we've been a couple now for 24 years and married 18 years on April 1 (really). In 1979 we moved to Miami thinking we would be able to 'plug in' on the 707 project. Again, the door was slammed in my face. I was told that my talents could be of use but if I wanted to do service, I would need to be married or move into the ashram. This at a time when DLM was running a divorce mill so valuable skills could be fully utilized on 'The Project'. Many relationships were destroyed as a result of the pressure to be in the ashram. It hurt to be excluded from the full time service I was familiar with but I am grateful I didn't cave into the pressure. This story does have a point. I see similarities between the 1979 break up of DLM International Headquarters in Denver and the dissolution of Élan Vital and Visions today. I am sure many of you are left in difficult career, financial and emotional disaray but this cloud may have a silver lining for you as it did for me. When the doors to service slammed shut for me, other doors of opportunity swung wide. After some menial waitron jobs, I got back into design work and have run my own advertising/design company since 1980. At a time when many premies were working 60 hours a week at DECA and living in the Broadripple or worse, I healed relationships with family, put together the resources to buy a house in Miami and got married. In other words, it was not so bad to be left out of the service cycle. I learned to be more self reliant, creative and gained much needed self confidence. I hope you will be as fortunate as I have been. I know some of you personally and sincerely care about you. My email address is above if you care to drop me a note. With great respect, love and good wishes, Richard Rogers

Subject: I'm sorry about this From: Sir Dave :p To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 19:55:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but try as I might, I can't see it any other way. (Click above link) Click here to see if you agree www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=anythinggoes&id=504.542666734662329

Subject: particularly nasty weather ... for tits ... From: cq To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 12:20:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Tickle his arse with a feather' ;) www.tprf.org/intro.gif

Subject: My buddy, Mr.eDrek was right... From: TED Farkel To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 22:42:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Howdy folks, long time no see, but possum and coon hunting's mighty fine down here at the TRAC Center these days, and while ole TED Farkel's still a devoted DVD /Auto/Self Knoweldge premie, er, supporter of the Lving Perfect Master, er , Speaker,.....well I am tempering my 'all weekend video fests' at the garage with the boys and the foamies and all that, with a might bit of fine hunting now and then.... well I digress, I spose...but anyway, Jes wanted to tell you that them divine pair of tits were inspired by my esteemed business associate and good friend/mentor on the path of truth, Mr. Roger eDrek, and his 'boob site'. Now the lords, er, Speakers brother,the Raja, confided in me on his last trip down her to Alabama, that he and his brother Prem did kinda, and I stress here, KINDA, get a kick out of the 'boob site', but I susect that was after quite a few cognacs and a dooby or two with the inner circle boys late at night at the rez in kangaroo land... Once again my hats off to Mr. eDrek and the boob site... G'nite all, and cheers too, TED Farkel

Subject: And here they are From: Roger eDrek To: TED Farkel Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 12:46:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: need I say more? The Lords big ones www.oz.net/~drek/dance_dirty.html

Subject: eDrek! ot From: Marianne To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:03:36 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: How are you? Marianne

Subject: Re: eDrek! ot From: Roger eDrek To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 23:46:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll try to write to you when I can, but right now 'they' are watching me and anticipating my every move.

Subject: Them's bigguns..... From: New-Age Redneck To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 14:43:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Subject: The tits are all mine, Dave From: Jim To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 20:29:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, Dave, but I was all over the tits right from the start. But then Cq came up with Hitchcock ... and THEN he came up with Rolls Royce. We've moved on, Dave but you're still stuck on the tits, I see. Well that kind of sucks.

Subject: No these are all mine, Jim From: Sir Dave To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 20:32:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: With big nipples on www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=anythinggoes&id=4539.2285100831712

Subject: You winey loosers!!! From: Dickie Pwickie To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 20:43:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All you guys ever do is lie and spread hateful gossip about my master. Maharaji came up with that logo when he was only 3 years old and Rolls Royce and Alfred Hitchcock stole it from him. But you wouldn't know that because you are too busy with your hateful agenda of trying to make everyone think like you. And now you lot are gonna argue about who thought his logo looked like human mammalia first. You just never got it did you? I suppose you'll want your brilliant (hah) observations to be nominated as **Breast Of Forum**. (rim shot) If you ever once tried to think with your heart instead of your mind, you would see that it is soooooo obvious that only one as masterful and compassionate as Maharaji could have come up with that logo. And it's Only By Compassion that he doesn't sue your collective asses. Respectfully yours, Dickie Pwickie (aka RR)

Subject: I know, I'm scum From: Sir Dave To: Dickie Pwickie Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 21:08:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All I can see is a pair of tits. Just shows where my head's at, doesn't it. Oh God, I wish I could be a pure premie like you instead of a low-down pervert who can only think of women's breasts. Prem Rawat's right, you know; his self-knowledge isn't for everybody. I should never have received it. It was those crazy Mahatma's faults...

Subject: Don't take it so hard, Sir Dave From: Dickie Pwickie To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 21:21:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Come on, Dave. Don't be so hard (heh-heh) on yourself. Just because you never got it and dedicated like I did, there's still hope. The door to The One Foundation is always open. Back in the day many brothers would say 'I'd give my left nut to do direct service'. Well, guess what? I not only gave my left nut, I took 'em both off with a sharpened tongue scraper one night. I'm glad I did too because, even though the closest I ever got to direct service was sweeping a driveway that he may have driven on, at least I don't sitting around thinking about breasts and disgusting things like that. Besides, I'll sound great along with the other castratos when we sing arti at Amaroo. The Master's gift just keeps on giving.

Subject: Mishler's phone call now on line From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 17:59:36 (EDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: Bob Mishler's phone call with two recently (at the time) deprogrammed premies is now on line at:- http://www.ex-premie2.org/download/Mishler/ To download the files, right click, and select 'Save Link As...' Many thanks to the ex who has converted the tape (and battled with the quality of the tape housing!). Another ex has kindly promised to transcribe the exchange, which is of reasonable quality, so for those who do not want to download the files, the text will soon be on EPO. John.

Subject: I've got an old Lou Schwartz shirt! From: That's so exciting! To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 17:59:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We can test it for DNA!

Subject: Great Stuff, John From: RichMandrake To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 13:24:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank You, John, for putting this on EPO. I only vaguely remember Bob Mischer as a skinny guy in a bad suit that would come by every once in a while to rally the troops. These short tapes...while not going into too much more detail about Maharaji's Deceits than has already been shared, shows Bob Mischler to be a transparently kind, concerned, sane and loving human being. A Beautiful Guy...Even though at the time, he was being villified by Maharaji and the Premies, this tape displays his obvious concern for the recently deprogrammed ex-premie he was talking with...At the end of the tape he tells the new Ex-premie that he is late for an appointment, but that he doesnt feel he had covered everything that needed to be covered and invited the ex-premie to call him again anytime...Are there any more tapes of these future conversations, John?>>..It such a shame he died before he could publicly fully expose MahaRawat....Good work, John!!

Subject: Re: Mishler's phonecall: tech help needed From: Livia To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 09:03:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excuse my techno-ineptitude, but can you please explain in terms explicable to an idiot how exactly to listen to/save this recording? Also, will it take up a lot of memory? Would it be possible to save it to a floppy? Does it (as it seems to) take a vast amount of time to download it all? Aarrgh!! Help!!! Thanks.... Love, Livia

Subject: Re: Mishler's phonecall: tech help needed From: Op To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 09:27:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Liv The files are in MP3 format, Windoze media player should fire up when you double click on the relevant file you have downloaded. To download right mouse click on the file on epo2 and then 'save taget as', save to a folder you want this great stuff to be placed in and then double click the file. Yes the files are rather large (approx 31 megs in total)but I am sure you have lots of disc space on your computer. Also I am sure plenty of memory to actually run the file. You don't need a lot of memory anyway. I would suggest you get a download manager (e.g. GetRight) to help in downloading the files. Also assume you do not have to pay for your internet connection on a pay-as-you-go basis. Any problems just shout, but not too loudly :) Love, Op

Subject: Re: Mishler's phonecall: tech help needed From: Livia To: Op Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:56:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks sweetie. You didn't say whether it can all be saved to a floppy, though? And once you have downloaded it all, do the files stay on your computer, using up memory? Or should you delete it again once you've heard it? (I'm fairly new to computers.) Will call/email you v soon. Love, Liv

Subject: Re: Mishler's phonecall: tech help needed From: Sir Dave To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 20:41:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Each file is around 5 megabytes, which is too big to fit onto most diskettes and certainly not the old floppy 5 inch disks. If you download the file by right clicking on the link and then left clicking SAVE TARGET AS (saving it to a suitable folder on your hard disk) then after you've downloaded it, it should be playable by double clicking on its icon but only if you have the program RealPlayer installed. Well maybe it will play in Wondoze Media Player too, I don't know. You'll need about 5 megabytes of hard disk space per file you download. Don't worry about memory, that's a different kettle of fish.

Subject: Re: Mishler's phone call now on line From: Sir Dave To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 06:08:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's brilliant. I just downloaded the first file and it's most enlightening, particularly where Bob Mishler is saying why he finally came out and spilled the beans. I can't see how premies can ever now say that the Mishler interview transcript is a fake. This is great historical evidence and I'm glad that this piece of history has been captured for all to hear.

Subject: The tapes were found in Arafat's office From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 15:44:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very serious and respectable people, I'm sure, have complained that the tapes are yet to be 'authenticated'. :)

Subject: Absolutely wonderful and powerful. Thanks JHB! From: Richard To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 19:18:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right now I am close to tears, having just listened to the late Bob Mishler speak about M. I knew Bob as a top shelf devotee but I am stunned at what a beautiful, compassionate, caring and generous person he was. It is obvious hearing him speak that he really and truly cared about all the premies and especially cared about M. Some details for those who can't listen to these incredible recordings. - Bob talks about his concern for M and how his habitual drinking was killing him. He describes the fainting spells that were diagnosed as resulting from psychosomatic stress. - He talks about how M agreed to change things in early 1976 but backed out of the agreement later. This and M's similarity to Jim Jones' meltdown is why Bob left. - Describes M's behaviour as the "antithesis of what M teaches". - Tells how he would bring concerns to M, such as the fact that the ashrams were making people inept and not stronger. On this and other matters, M did not care about the consequences, refused to deal with it and instead got drunk on Cognac. - Describes M's pschological abuse of Marolyn as an example of his 'my way or the highway' absolutist approach. (Shocking and sad.) - He is amazed that premies continue to find a reason to believe in spite of M and they should take a look with a rational mind and question their faith in him. (Some things never change.) - Bob concludes that he feels sorry for M and there will be no happy ending for anyone involved. (Wow!) In 1976 when Bob and others high up in DLM left M&K, I asked someone who knew what was going on to tell me why they left. His comment was You don't want to know, it's just food for your mind. It was kindness on his part, not wanting to upset a true believer, but it became a type of Zen koan for me. Now years later Bob's words are indeed food for my mind and my heart as well. I only wish Maharaji had the courage to listen to one of his closest followers speak about him with such obvious compassion for him. I can't help but imagine what might have been had he listened then.

Subject: tech help on a mac richard? From: janet To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 06:36:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the directions to PC users above are useless to me on a mac, for getting to these phone calls. how do i do it on a mac? how bout an old mac, say a 68K, with OS 7.5.5? can you remember back about 5 years? hope so. we po folk hafta use the low end machines.

Subject: Re: tech help on a mac From: Richard To: janet Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 11:55:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 68K ! ? ! Wow, vintage Mac indeed. I'm not a Mac geek by any stretch but, on my G3, the MP3 sound clips play with QuickTime, Real Player or I-Tunes. Those are free downloads if your Mac and system can deal with them. Check the link for a free Quicktime download. Once QT is installed and configured with your browser, when you click on an MP3 file, QT will launch and the clip will play. Otherwise, you can hold down on the link and dowload each file to your hard drive and then open within QT. Not sure how to set up QT for WebTV. And, like with M, memory may be a problem.;) Good luck. Hearing Bob speak about M is worth the effort. Quicktime for OS7.5 www.apple.com/quicktime/download/

Subject: My email to Leaders (to David Schner) From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 14:10:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Mr. Schner, As a former follower of Prem Rawat (a/k/a Maharaji) , aware, as I am of his absurd history as the teenage Lord of the Universe and Saviour of Mankind, I was shocked to see the outrageous puff piece you've written for him. Actually, I've only seen half the article as that's what Rawat is previewing in the media section of his new website, www.tprf.org . Naturally, no other interviews accompany yours as Maharaji has fearfully avoided the media for almost 30 years now. Although he once courted as much public attention as possible, directing his cult to inundate the media with one public relations campaign after another, it all came to a crashing halt on November 10, 1973. On that day, Maharaji held at press conference at the Houston Astrodome. His cult, then called Divine Light Mission, had rented the hall for what Maharaji had promised to be the 'most significant event in the history of mankind.' In fact, he called the three-day program 'Millenium '73' and told all who would listen that he was actually 'inaugurating a thousand years of peace' for all humanity then and there. Scenes from that press conference are captured beautifully in a scathing PBS documentary entitled, fittingly, 'The Lord of the Universe'. Reporters from the Time, Newsweek and other media tried to interview the 15 year-old 'Perfect Master' who began the scrum by petulantly complaining that the media was not cooperating with him sincerely enough. He was indeed bringing peace to the world but it would help (go figure!) if he had their assistance. Instead, however, the press wanted answers. For example, the press wanted to know about the incident a few monhts earlier where some of the guru's followers had attacked a prankster who'd thrown a cream pie at him. The cult members, including one high-ranking 'mahatma' (i.e. saint or holy man) had smashed the man's head in with a hammer and left him for dead. Maharaji squirmed under that question as he did the others. He lied and evaded questions throughout. By the time it was over, he looked more like a spoiled teenager about to cry than any Saviour of Mankind. That was his last interview. In the intervening years, Maharaji and his cult have undergone various window-dressing campaigns but the content never changes. Make no mistake, such is their indoctrination that his followers still believe that Maharaji is some sort of deity made flesh, no doubt about it. To this day, they still sieze the opportunity, whenever he grants it, for them to kiss his feet or otherwise worship him. Here is a sample quote of some of Maharaji's earlier, more candid self-descriptions: 'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ...... When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, ....But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth. Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing... So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light. And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith.' Over the years, Maharaji has hurt many, many people. For a sense of the complexion of the harm, please refer to a website run by former followers like myself who seek to hold Maharaji accountable for the betrayed trust of hundreds of thousands: www.ex-premie.org When I first saw that Maharaji had finally dared to grant an interview I couldn't believe it. How could he possibly deal with his notorious past? How could he explain the gross wealth he's accumulated as an alternative to bringing 'world peace'? How could he explain himself at all, really, in light of his infamous history? Unfortunately, when I started reading your piece my questions were answered. I don't know if you were somehow duped by some followers of his or if you even count yourself among them but this article is, I'm sorry to say, shameful. Maharaji is a man with an unspeakable past. His father was a cult leader and he was placed on the throne on his father's death and that's about it. Soon after the Millenium mess I described above, the family had a torrid rift and Maharaji's brother set up shop HIMSELF as the 'avatar' (God made flesh), in direct competition. The entire sordid affair reads like a bad Tom Robbins novel which I, and a number of other unlucky folk, were captured in. Your piece, however, props him up as some sort of vague, new age corporate Music Man of some kind. I wonder, are you that cavalier about your magazine's reputation and credibility? What's so strange about the article is how glaringly bereft of content it is. Here is a fellow who supposedly has the answer to the world's deepest, perennial questions and yet nothing is explained about how in the world he achieved such a vaulted state of wisdom other than to say that 'self knowledge' was a passion around the household when he was growing up. You make it sound like Ozzie and Harriet only instead of music or fishing the family enjoyed enlightenment together. The actual questions and answers are amazing in this regard. Whoever is asking the questions, perhaps you, does ask some fairly basic, straightforward questions, but Maharaji simply side-steps them, one by one, making a complete mockery of the process and, necessarily, the magazine as well. For example, when asked how it happened that he was speaking to hundreds of thousands of people at age eight, a perfectly good an interesting question if there ever was one in this weird affair, he sidesteps it all, saying instead: 'I really feel it is a gift. I can't imagine how all of this would have been possible otherwise. It's a wonderful opportunity to come from the heart and to address the very simple nature of us all.' Simple, maybe, but not stupid. But what kind of an interview is that that allows such non-answers? What kind of a magazine would publish such drivel? Maharaji's even worse when he's espousing some of his too-simple-for-words cult 'philosophy': How do you define success? The way I see it, if you don't feel successful within yourself, then it doesn't matter how successful you are on the outside. There is always going to be a distinction between the two. Even if you are the CEO of a big corporation, you have to come home, and what happens then? You may have a big office, a lot of power and a range of awards, but when you come home you're just yourself. You need to be a success there too. Ultimately you can be exceedingly wealthy and still be happy and satisfied, or not have a penny to your name and be equally fulfilled. Once you draw the distinction between you and everything else, it's very easy to see that outward success is not what really matters. This drivel wouldn't even make publication in your average laundromat new-age yoga flyer, yet you've printed it, ostensibly for the sophisticated and important readership you market to. I simply can't believe it. Last week I brought my concerns to the attention of Darrell Brown in your office. Mr. Brown advised me that the article was a combined effort of yourself and the Maharaji people themselves. He told me he knew nothing about Maharaji personally and, after I directed him to some of the same background materials I'm showing you, and spoke with him later, he noted that Maharaji certainly had a 'nefarious' past. I asked him and he promised to send me a copy of the entire article as I was only able to read the first half on Maharaji's site. He also said that he was concerned about the possible impact this piece could have on Leaders and would stay in touch to discuss the matter with me further. Unfortunately, Mr. Brown did not do so and returned none of me emails or messages throughout the rest of the week. I can only surmise that, however your magazine published this, what's done is done and you have no interest in drawing any further attention to the article. I believe, however, that, unless you're somehow involved with Maharaji to begin with, if you were to actually familiarize yourself with the man and his background, take some time and review some of the background materials, you would appreciate some of the serious issues that enshroud this cult, like so many others, in controversy. For example, Maharaji has allegedly sexually exploited followers and has, in particular, protected a known pedophile, another 'mahatma', for years. As you can see with the catholic church and other religious institutions, cults, what have you, these chickens are only now coming to roost. How will Leaders look if Maharaji's cult is likewise exposed? You have given a very underserving man an uncritical platform to attempt to establish credibility that he will never deserve. I implore you, therefore, to take the extraordinary step of allowing for some sort of counterpoint to the Maharaji article. A response, in other words. Mr. Brown advises me that you don't run a letters section so this would be the only feasible way to offset some of the gross misconceptions Maharaji was allowed to foist on your readership. Finally, I would ask that you would do what Mr. Brown did not and that's send me the article in its entirety. I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience. Sincerely, Jim Heller Phone (250) 360-1040

Subject: great letter! (nt) From: Susan To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 19:14:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Good Jim!! Very Good! From: Sulla To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 14:47:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Your posts are Pathological Jim From: Reality Check To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 01:01:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are a bloody joke, strutting your stuff around, here arrogantly speaking for other people. Meanwhile, none of us have ever heard of you before this forum. Why do you never talk about yourself? We all heard of Michael Dettmers and Michael Donner and a few others who post here. But Jim Heller? Doesn't ring a bell. Help us out here Jimbo, will ya? Where did you come from? What was your service? Where? How many times did you speak personally with Maharaji? What did you discuss and why? You owe the readers some answers. Michael Dettmers' experiences with Maharaji belong to him, not you. What a joke it was to read you fill in details of the accident that he could hardly remember. Desperate is more the word. I don't want to sound presumptious, but it's like you are jealous and needy, and for strange and bizarre reasons, seek to live vicariously through other people's experiences because you never got over being a nobody with nothing to show because you never got it than and you don't have it now. Does anyone else wonder why the magazine stopped responding to his emails and calls?

Subject: This is just too stupid to ignore From: Jim To: Reality Check Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 21:16:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've gone back and forth on ignoring this post (other than just dismissing it like I did last night) but, sorry, it's just too stupid for words. The implied premises are funnier than hell. I just have to say something. You are a bloody joke, strutting your stuff around, here arrogantly speaking for other people. Meanwhile, none of us have ever heard of you before this forum. Why do you never talk about yourself? We all heard of Michael Dettmers and Michael Donner and a few others who post here. But Jim Heller? Doesn't ring a bell. Help us out here Jimbo, will ya? Where did you come from? What was your service? Where? How many times did you speak personally with Maharaji? What did you discuss and why? You owe the readers some answers. I would just love to see you spell this argument out for us. Am I right in assuming it's something along the lines of only former PAMs have the right to speak out against the madness? Something like that? You stupid fool, I never said I was anything but your typical ashram premie in the seventies. I've talked about myself lots here. No mystery. I'm an open book. But what the hell does that have to do with anything? It's not as if I'm saying that I, Jim Heller, have the inside dope on Maharaji this way or that. What's wrong with you that you'd get so confused like that? I can only assume that your misdirected criticism's evidence of some emotional tension or something. Do you feel okay? Or do you feel like you're flailing? By that I mean posting gibberish in reaction to something quite possibly unrelated to what you're even talking about? For your sake I almsot hope so because, really fella, your posts are so off the mark you better have some excuse. No one should be so unintelligent. No one. Michael Dettmers' experiences with Maharaji belong to him, not you. What a joke it was to read you fill in details of the accident that he could hardly remember. Desperate is more the word. Do you actually care what happened or not? Tell me we're both interested in the truth of the matter and then we can sort out how best to deal with it. Fact is, you're just looking for any excuse possible to keep your stupid cult-soaked head in the pee-soaked sand beneath your feet. I mean, what other possible excuse could you have for saying something as stupid as that? Dettmer's experiences 'belong' to him? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Do you see me writing my autobiography and expropriating them or something? Those of us who have our heads on straight here -- not you, obviously -- are just trying to sort of a few facts is all. What's wrong? Haven't you ever done that? I don't want to sound presumptious, but it's like you are jealous and needy, and for strange and bizarre reasons, seek to live vicariously through other people's experiences because you never got over being a nobody with nothing to show because you never got it than and you don't have it now. What comes through loud and clear, what's so amazingly laughable, is your own projection that this time up close and personal with your ugly, fat cult leader is something any of us would even think of valuing anymore. Like, I swear, it took me a moment or so reading your post to get it. That's how far beyond the pale you are. Does anyone else wonder why the magazine stopped responding to his emails and calls? Very simple, really. Either the magazine, or somepart of it, knew what a ridiculous whitewash they were doing on one of the silliest cult leaders of the seventies, in which case the guy I talked with (only one), Darrell Brown, paid me some lip service knowing full well they'd served their purposes -- making a little money or helping this cult somehow -- and would never send me the article or want to do anything about it, or they were hoodwinked, like he said, in which case, they still might quite understandably see no percentage in doing anything that would embarrass or scandalize them further. By the way, what did you think of the article? Can you believe it's come to this? Your ugly cult leader with a completely fake, frozen smile glaring out over empty text in a stupid vanity publication because he's been afraid to face the real world for thirty years? What'd you think about that? :)

Subject: Spot-on, Jim. From: New-Age Redneck To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 13:04:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Doesn't this moron realize that, as a lawyer, you are pretty good at gathering evidence? Pretty good at following the line-of-evidence, no matter where it may lead? Pretty good at putting the story together in some logical fashion, from available evidence? Pretty good at determining a 'motive' from evidence, alone? It's kinda like your job, right? This guy seems to think that gathering evidence is the same thing as 'manufacturing' evidence. I stand by my statement below.... he's a pompous ass with a small set of genitals. I determined that last bit from available evidence (there ain't much..... he he he) :)

Subject: I'm glad you took the time,Jim From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 02:39:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You've got the patience of a saint, as I've said before, to answer this cultweasel stuff. Actually, if this anonymouse isn't deliberately and maliciously pretending to misunderstand you, then I feel truly sorry for this person as its thought-processes seem really lacking in logic. I've given up defending myself because I figured that either I am being maliciously set up or the poster is so insane that they cannot understand simple English let alone common sense. Whatever the cause of these guys' twisted perceptions, the fact is that they have a really skewed sense of reality and are obviously in a cult. It's impossible for them to see things the way ordinary folk do. It's really tragic.

Subject: Ahhhh... a premie apologist From: New-Age Redneck To: Reality Check Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 18:04:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pathetic, just pathetic. Are you a shrink? Where do you get your shrink credentials? Where have you served as a shrink? Have you done shrink duty with Jim? What did you discuss and why? How many shrink sessions have you ACTUALLY had with Jim (in person)? You didn't want to be presumptious????? For someone that didn't 'want' to do something, you sure made a poor effort at carry-through, didn't you? What a pompous ass..... you MUST be a shrink! Jim, in my not-so-humble opinion, is a clear thinking guy who has never made himself out to be anything other than what he is. While I may disagree with him (and YES, I have vehemently disagreed with him), that doesn't mean that he is some adle-headed dolt. It means that he is a clear-thinking person with whom I disagree. Clear thinking is just that..... CLEAR! Whether you agree or not! Of course, trying to explain clear thinking to a premie-apologist shrink-wannabe is about the most adle-headed doltish thing 'I' could ever attempt to accomplish.

Subject: You are Pathological, ARSIE From: Gail To: Reality Check Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 11:24:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim has mentioned he was a rank-and-file premie. He has very sharp mind and is an excellent writer. Furthermore, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that Maharaji is reinventing himself again. Why has he had to reinvent himself and the name of his organization so many times, RC? Could it be he's running a cult. I've heard of Jim. He was one of a few very helpful people who made it possible for me to extricate the cult faster. Stop defending this turd, the Lard of the Universe. We were all there. We know the truth. I quote someone??? 'We came, we saw, we lost! YOU GET REAL!

Subject: What, you escaped the cyanide in Jonestown? From: Marianne To: Reality Check Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 09:12:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah Roupell. Very nice work this post to Jim, calling him pathological. I think I'll go back into my old files and get some quotes from Jim Jones, screaming to his devotees in the jungles of Guyana about the pathological former Peoples Temple who were so unfairly attacking him. You and your pals ripped this page out of the cult playbook. You are so predictable. Keep it coming. Marianne

Subject: Maybe you're right about Jim, JHB From: PatC To: Reality Check Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 02:50:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In a post below you said to CD: ''I know the party line at LG is to paint Jim as some off the wall ex-premie fanatic who has lost the respect of the vast majority of other exes, but you have until now stayed out of that. It is now clear that you are part of this campaign, possibly the ringleader(?).'' Till now I had always thought of the premies' truly puzzling reactions to Jim as mentally-defective cult apologists' responses to Jim's pretty ordinary run-of-the-mill, ''just the facts please'' straightforwardness. You know the vampire response to garlic or is that daylight? Yet they seem to think that he is devious. Now I'm beginning to think that their subconscious vampiric reaction to Jim's garlicky honesty may also be devious. This post of Roupell's above to Jim sure sounds like a ''campaign'' given Cerise/Marolyn/Et Al's track record. Is this guy dedicated or psycho or bored or stoned or drunk? For god's sake he should be in Amaroo doing service. Oh, sorry, I forgot service is only for the suckers. He's one of the enlightened chosen few. Sieg Heil! (I noticed that you also picked up on his cultic elitism on LIG, John.)

Subject: It ain't me Babe From: DR To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 09:46:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But hey Pat, if you are happy thinking it is. Ok. I'm through protesting that I'm not this person or that, to be or not to being so and so and so and so. It's gotten out of hand and I guess, in a warped kind of a way it is a little flattering that you can't seem to get me outa your head. Like you, I'd love to know who some of these Unix guys are but I guess they'll reveal themselves when they're ready. If you think for a second you'd realise that DR doesn't need to paint his face anymore, I amuse and abuse quite happily under my own logo - you folks couldn't loathe me much more so what have I got to worry about? But I thought you knew my style a bit better. The post above is not even close to my way of doing stuff. I play with Jim, not question his so called credentials. I don't give a rats arse what his service or position was. He has his fame now and we're all basking in his glory. Right?! The other anon unix posts? , well, like I say, I am extremely curious about that because there are definite similarities between those posts and my way. I bloody well hope it's not being done deliberately so I get all the flack - ???? not impressed anon dude! We had dinner with Glen, DL and several others tonight. Shitloads of laughs about how you folk seem to think he and I are the only people worth gossiping about or attacking, other than cat. Yea, I'm off to Amaroo tomorrow morning. The party goes large. Dermot's right, we prems don't talk very much anymore on the forums. What's there to say? The Leaders article was a nice piece of sweet smelling puff pastry publicity blurb, no big shakes, no-one I know cares one way or the other. I couldn't. But it is highly amusing watching big Jim being humbled by their recognition of him as a one slipper short of a wardrobe kind of guy. And it's equally amusing noting your gushing and enthusiastic back patting, it's as if you all secretly know the guy has made an absolute tit of himself, but no-one wants to admit it. So like a failed politician's support group it's all 'well done, great speech, jolly good stuff, that'll show em'. I know it's going to sound very boring but, I think I have run out of steam forumwise and if I kept posting it would merely be a running around in circles like a lot of long time posters are now already doing. We've had some great fun and nothing's changed so it's time to cruise on. Besides I've been flat out in a sea of guitars and amps (of which I received three this week). Must admit I feel a touch guilty being so shamelessly indulgent, but once I've gotten some decent sounds out of them and found one or two I want to stick with I'll send the others off to good homes and grateful recipients. Anyway, my ancestors worked very hard for my money, so I feel it's my family duty to completely enjoy it. The new digital modeling amps are now taking a firm hold of many guitarists imaginations and I have to admit, the good ones with 24 bit and 32 bit processors and 44.1 AD/DA sequencing rates are superb in their ability to mimick the best amps of all time. But as Pat W says, the best sound he's ever taped is a Marshall stack miked up in a broom cupboard! But wait til he hears my Johnson Mirage!!!! Glen is in sparkling form and so are the other OS prems that have arrived on these lovely shores for the party of the year. I'm really not sure what kind of a difference the forums have made to anyone's life really. None I'd venture if we are brutally honest about it. We all know that anyone who gets their self esteem or kicks off an internet site is already in deep shit so it doesn't matter if they believe they've been helped or not, belief is enough for some. Others prefer experience which, unfortunately can't be talked about in this type of medium. I'll call in and have a look after I've gotten over the party. But.... it's all so predictable - you guys will be saying 'it was a load of crap, a con, a farce, a failure, a sick cult in full swing, a blatant money grabbing excercise' - etc etc F7 Posters will outdo each other to splutter whatever sounds appropriately nasty and snide and convincing. Unfortunately, if you weren't there, then there's absolutely not a snowflake's chance in Pat's kitchen that you'd even be remotely close to knowing what the experience was like for anyone that was. See how tired I'm getting trying to point out the obvious?? ZZZZzzzzzzzzz,,,,,............. . . . . .

Subject: Not trying to be you Babe :) From: Reality Check To: DR Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:54:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: DR, Apologies mate, wasn't trying to anonyclone your posts. Last night seven of us were enjoying a martini soiree and we couldn't stop laughing at jimbo's increasingly pathological posts. He is awful and irrelevant to almost everyone who posts here, and never or can't speak for himself. We are not 'apologists' but a mix of people who still practice knowledge or have stopped practicing knowledge for personal reasons. A married couple, my neighbours and never received knowledge come over for dinner and joined the fun. It's not like everyone here are sick to us, mate. Some people we know or did know once upon a time. We just think jimbo is the worst of the lot and shocked at the posts praising him. You said we will out when we are ready. I think not, but won't speak for others. This is not a trustworthy enviro. We can communicate civilly with each other, with respect and friendship left intact. Wouldn't have it any other way. Enjoy the party of the year DR.

Subject: Thanks RC From: DR To: Reality Check Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 20:23:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I appreciate that. And hey, I don't blame you for staying anon! There are some highly unsavoury beasts in this neck of the woods. Yea, occasionally when I'm on the net and there's a few folks here we also do what you guys do. It can be hilarious! At first I was a bit wary because some people said things I wouldn't have, yet it was my browser which showed up. Then someone reminded me where and to whom these posts were going and I realised it didn't matter anymore. Now, I better scram...there's a party to attend!!! :) Keep the bastards honest dudes... D

Subject: Are you sure... From: Jack Abbott To: Reality Check Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 19:38:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you're not in a circle jerk instead of a martini soiree? There's enough of you for a circle and you're defnitely a fatuous jerk. Back to spinning in my grave.

Subject: IS that the fourth technique? From: New-Age Redneck To: Reality Check Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:50:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a '... a martini soiree...' ????? Well, I for one fully approve.... since that is the first technique that actually does anything. Guess what? You don't need his 'grace' for the old ethanol-based stuff to work, either. In fact, instead of showering M with gratitude for something that he didn't even invent (I think the egyptians were the first to do beer), why not just save it for a few more martini's? Make sense? Yes? I KNOW.... show your gratitude to the BARTENDER!

Subject: Hi Redneck, where have you been? [nt] From: Livia To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:57:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Gallivanting the universe From: New-Age Redneck To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 19:58:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for asking. I've been a busy astrophysicist, lately. Not to mention, I've been a very busy UNIX-geek, as well. I was doing some heavy telescope time on the big island, so I was out of touch for a few days. Flew back to AZ on Saturday and haven't been quite normal, yet. I hate traversing time zones..... My old body just doesn't like it much. Actually, come to think of it, it never did like it much.... he he he.

Subject: Not trying to be you Babe :) From: Reality Check To: DR Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:53:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: DR, Apologies mate, wasn't trying to anonyclone your posts. Last night seven of us were enjoying a martini soiree and we couldn't stop laughing at jimbo's increasingly pathological posts. He is awful and irrelevant to almost everyone who posts here, and never or can't speak for himself. We are not 'apologists' but a mix of people who still practice knowledge or have stopped practicing knowledge for personal reasons. A married couple, my neighbours and never received knowledge come over for dinner and joined the fun. It's not like everyone here are sick to us, mate. Some people we know or did know once upon a time. We just think jimbo is the worst of the lot and shocked at the posts praising him. You said we will out when we are ready. I think not, but won't speak for others. This is not a trustworthy enviro. We can communicate civilly with each other, with respect and friendship left intact. Wouldn't have it any other way. Enjoy the party of the year DR.

Subject: Just NOT credible,,,,, From: Dermot To: Reality Check Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 22:26:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Id have loved to have been at your soiree and just check the 'reality' there. Really, you have nothing to say about the truly absurd vanity website tprf.org. Nothing to say about how absurd Rawat is getting as he ages. Yet there you all are so DETERMINED to attack a post of Jim's. A post that clearly explained to a journalist (if he is a journalist)Rawats history of perpetual revisionism culminating in this latest pathetic shot....tprf. Also, like so many of you shallow minded, narrow minded snipers not one of you had the guts or good manners to peek out of your anonymouse hole! So from there you attack a guy who for years has revealed his name, email and phone number for all to see.A guy who has always made known his ashram premie experience and never tried to hide or embellish it. Martini soirees, ha ....party of the year (I guess you mean scamaroo huh?)..ha. A bunch of sniping jerks, nore like it. .....what a joke......as I said above.....pathetic.

Subject: Goo-bye, and don't forget your blankey From: New-Age Redneck To: DR Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 14:52:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Going around in circles???? The only thing going in circles is so-called premie logic. You 'think' you are spiralling upwards. You are just playing on the gooroo's version of a sit-and-spin toy. Going nowhere. I'd say 'good luck,' but to say that would require me to acknowledge that you are not totalling wasting your time or that there is a snowball's chance in hell of you guys attaining enlightenment. So.... I won't wish you good luck, DR. Instead, I'll say WAKE UP! Tell me, how close to enlightenment are you, now? You really 'should' know. Unfortunately, I KNOW the answer..... no closer than when you met the googoo. Not a single centimeter.... not one.

Subject: You're missing the point, DR From: Neville To: DR Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 10:47:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Those digital modeling amps sound interesting, but since I don't play live much these days I think I'd prefer something rack-mountable that I can DI into the mixing desk. This site isn't about kicks. It is about the power of the internet to link scattered people. We're all carrying a piece of the mosaic, and as the picture is assembled so M's position becomes more and more insecure. I really hope other premies are as complacent as you--it will make our end of the job easier. Neville

Subject: Yea, I would too, From: DR To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 20:16:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: if I didn't play live I'd use a M Boogie triaxis, no worries. But it's fascinating hearing the little combo sound like and old Matchless or an AC30 as well as shredding Mesa Rectifier! I'm not compacent Neville, I just know that the love of the heart suffers under no rules. Can't be touched.

Subject: Bet it goes right up to 11 From: Neville To: DR Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 05:53:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Boogie triaxis? I must check that one out. 'Can't be touched.' Yeah, that's what I thought, once. We'll see. Sounds like famous last words to me. Neville

Subject: What's your favorite amp for arti? From: Jim To: DR Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 20:29:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You crack me up, Roupell. Always trying to show us what a wild and crazy guy you are when the fact is you've tethered your life to a little piggy cult leader, like Maharaji. Sorry dude, that's the epitome of COR...NY!. Indeed, you share more in common with the Ivettes and Janices of the world than you do your favorite 80s shredder. Why? Because, when it's all over, even Roupell takes his shoes off and lines up quietly to kiss piggy's feet. No joking then, dude. That's God in that ugly little body and you just want him to keep you so close to him, don't you?

Subject: Oh, I'd plug in the 100 watt VHT Pitbull 4X12 From: DR To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 21:05:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually Jimbo I spend most of my time trying to appear like a normal, middle aged, classy, sensible man who enjoys the respect and love of his peers. I usually blow that little charade when I have a few too many champagnes and become a gallivanting lush who 'loves' everyone in a rather embarrassing and sometimes sickening way. I don't try to 'show' you anything here as I'm not in the least bit concerned with your opinion of me. I note your description of Maharaji has reached a new level of infantilism. Hope it isn't as a reaction to your rather telling failed public spectacle of late. ho ho

Subject: AFRAID TO COMMENT ON THE ARTICLE ITSELF, ROUPELL? From: Jim To: DR Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 23:14:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Note that not a single one of you premies has even said a word yet about the interview itself. Not a word. You'll snipe away at us, laugh at our efforts to figure out how the hell any journal on earth (besides Cult Leaders Magazine) could print that empty garbage and why. And, of course, you'll try to deflect the conversation off-topic however possible. BUT NONE OF YOU HAVE SAID A WORD ABOUT THE ACTUAL ARTICLE ITSELF. Am I right to assume that you're simply embarrassed by this bit of corporo-sleazo-shlock? That even you can't believe that Maharaji could be such a whore? You know, it's funny but the last time Maharaji did something to try to lie his way out of his past it was through the EV Frequently Asked Questions. Hilarious, wasn't it, you premies trying to blame that box of lies on 'EV', as if Maharaji didn't mix the paint AND throw it on the canvass. As if he didn't stand back afterwards and say 'yeah, that'll do'. But this time, ha ha ha, those are his words dancing around every question, avoiding the truth at every juncture. Those are his words making a mockery, in fact, of the very notion that someone might hope to seriously engage him in anything like a conversation. No, he proved himself ever the cult leader in more ways than one in that piece. And I, for one, know that you can see that too. As can all your other premie friends. No wonder you'd rather talk about something safe like me of all things. Too bad the topic's irrelevant. You poor, poor fool. You poor,poor fool ...... Here, have a happy :)

Subject: How about the Rawat Riler EX-P? [nt] From: DO To: DR Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 21:21:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: That was pretty pathetic, man [nt] From: Jim To: Reality Check Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 02:44:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Make that 'stupid', pretty stupid, man [nt] From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 02:45:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: ...and your posts are pathetic, pal. [nt] From: Dermot To: Reality Check Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 01:53:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Your strategy is transparent From: JHB To: Reality Check Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 01:17:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The cult's strategy in trying to counter ex-premies is so transparent. We've had the it-aint-so and pleaseconsiderthis 'reasonable' approach. We've had CAC and the EPO attacks. And now with one voice you have obviously agreed to attack Jim's character at every opportunity. Well, Jim's character isn't the issue here, Prem Rawat's is. Jim tried to devote himself to Maharaji as I did, and many others, on Maharaji's direct instruction as self proclaimed 'Superior Power in Person'. Maharaji has to answer for this. John.

Subject: Re: Your strategy is transparent From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 02:58:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, they've also continue to attack you and Gerry and Marianne and me among others. Did you see Roupell's post to Katie on LIG saying he only tolerated her if she was humble? The Borg want everyone else except themselves to be humble. After all they are the chosen people. They can't stand strong individual voices. We are deviants because we are not one with the Borg. Sieg Heil! Grovel at the lotus feet. Oh yea baby. Do it to me one more time.......

Subject: Why wait for answers? How about...? From: la-ex To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 23:56:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How about this idea? This story is getting bigger all of the time...as the talking heads on tv would say, 'it's got legs'.... (or as maharaji used to say, first a man has 2 legs, then gets 4 legs, then 8 legs etc....however,I digress) This new wrinkle with the 'leaders article', in such sharp contrast to his prefvious PR attempts, and how they were framed compared to now, is such a great study in the attempted 'remake' or repackaging' of the cult, that it in itself is becoming a story worthy of media attention and scrutiny. Or at least some university prof. or grad student would find it all fascinating to say the least...Nice thesis, perhaps?) Coupled with all of the CAC attacks, shutting down of epo, m's websites and re-writes....it's pathetic, sad, digusting and funny all at the same time..... Also, some of Mischlers audio tapes, with Marianne' Jonestown experiences, plus other pams speaking out more and more... Should someone be coordinating an attempt to write all of this up for some curious reporter to pick up on, an carry the ball a bit further? Michael Moore? 'A new age Woodward and Bernstein?' Pat Robertson's law school? Some radio station?

Subject: How about. the LA Weekly..? Rolling stone? From: Zelda To: la-ex Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 02:39:10 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Your idea makes sense. It is the kind of story that people would read because Malarky had a big public presence way back when. Almost everyone reacts with 'Oh THAT guy! I remember him the teenage guru! So what ever happened to him?' The LOVE to hear he has turned himself into a corporate 'tax exempt ' type and lives the life of luxury at the expense of his followers. Some publications would be willing to publish a rebuttal to the leader story. I keep saying- one or 2 of the exs should go on Sally Jesse Rapheal or ? with their own personal story. Not as representatve of the EX movement - but a personal story of the tribulations of belonging to the cult. They could make a plug for EPO for viewers who are families of people being sucked in by the cult. An Anthropolgy student could get some miles out of it.

Subject: Re: My email to Leaders (to David Schner) From: CD To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 16:32:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, You have the credibility of a disgruntled jerk. The proof is in your own posted words over the last few years. How soon can we expect to see insults hurled at David Schner? The pattern is well known. Start out polite and implore for the extraordinary, get a bit argumentative, drop the gaurd and turn the corner to nasty. CD

Subject: Very funny, CD From: Jim To: CD Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 17:47:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess that's what it looks like from your brain-damaged perspective. Like some other exes, not all, I grant you, but any who have actually tried to talk with you, I have indeed lost my patience with you. What you're afraid to look at though, my extremely pathetic friend, is what happens on your side of the conversation. Do you really think it's normal for me to only be able to maintain a civil demeanour for so long but then, like Tarzan squeezed into a tuxedo, I just start grunting or something and have to cast off the threads and swing through the trees? You make it sound that way. 'Civil discussion's only good for, say, five or ten minutes with Jim. After that, I have no idea why, the guy just loses it...' Is that what you think? The fact is that I, like other, hopefully like a lot of others, don't like evasion, don't like lies, don't like deception. I react to those. You, as every single interaction you've ever had in all the years you've been posting proves are either too afraid or too stubborn to have an honest discussion. For the life of me, I think you don't even know what they look like anymore. As one of the first -- and chronic -- premie posters you, along with Mili, are responsible for setting a low, low, unbelievably low, standard for honesty and openness. Mili acted like a thug at first -- threatening to assault people, lying to Usenet to try to get us shut down, even telling premies what they could or couldn't talk about on the first premie forum ('no debates about who Maharaji is or isn't, clear?!). You acted brain dead. Like today, in fact. And so we've seen a whole slew of witnesses -- for the most part, victimsreally, of one kind or another -- tell truth after truth about Maharaji's corruption. From the Mikes to MacGregor to the Jagdeo victims, to so many others. And you, you stupid little weenie, have been completely impotent as a human being to do or say anything. Instead, you do your safe, little Microsoft Certified Engineer programming gig, where you probably don't even have to interact with people, and make more money than you know what to do with. So you buy guitars and live your lonely life, CD, his very uninquisitive girlfriend, his beer and his guitars. And you 'run' a pathetic cesspool called, ironically, 'Life's Great'. The same cesspool which yielded live 'YOUR TIME IS UP' HELLER' death threats against me about which you refused to do anything. The same cesspool where you cajole others to talk about your silly, glazed-eye, drooling-from-the-corner-of-your-mouth topic, Life being Great, as a way to stop them from talking about anything else you can't handle -- like life being real, say -- but when asked to say something yourself along those lines, you wait, and wait, and wait ... and promise to come up with something .... we wait some more and finally, you spit the same cookie fortune you've had stuck in your craw for years. Instead of starting a conversation on this imaginary topic of yours, which was what you berate others for not doing, you can only say: The problem is exactly that we do not take it seriously. We are the thirsty fish in the sea. Yeah, I've gotten extremely frustrated with you over the years. I'm used to dealing with human beings. I don't know what you are. Do you?

Subject: Threats, CD? From: New-Age Redneck To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 13:15:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Guys in the 'callbook' shouldn't throw stones, right CD? I'm surprised you still come here and spout your cult-drivel. dih-dih-dah-dit dih-dih-dah dah-dih-dah-dit dah-dih-dah dah-dih-dah-dah dah-dah-dah dih-dih-dah

Subject: Very funny, Jim From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 18:55:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In this post to CD and the one to Carlos on LIG, your prose has soared to new heights. The muses must be gracing you. :C) Of course your scintillating wit may be lost on the recipients but I have thoroughly enjoyed it. What is most amazing is this: cultists see you as this vicious monster while the rest of us see you as the epitome of sense and sensibility.

Subject: Chris, you've dropped your guard From: JHB To: CD Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 17:13:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chris, I know the party line at LG is to paint Jim as some off the wall ex-premie fanatic who has lost the respect of the vast majority of other exes, but you have until now stayed out of that. It is now clear that you are part of this campaign, possibly the ringleader(?). OK, Chris, a couple of things you need to understand. Jim still has a lot of credibility here. Also, Jim is just one guy here, not some sort of leader, so even if your pathetic campaign actually worked (which is very unlikely), it would make little difference in our resolve to ensure that the truth about Maharaji gets told. Why don't you address Jim's mail and answer it point by point? Or maybe address the 14 objections on EPO? And why did you delete my post on LG expressing how great life is when you face up to the truth no matter how painful it is? John.

Subject: Are you mad? From: Nigel To: CD Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 16:59:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You have the credibility of a disgruntled jerk. I notice you didn't wait to drop any gaurd [sic], or turn any corner before doing the nasty bit, yourself, Chris. Why not print out this exchange of posts and show a few non-cult friends and ask which shows greater credibility, and which sounds like the rantings of a disguntled jerk. You're batting out of your league here. At least try arguing a point if you want to offer a meaningful criticism. Otherwise I suggest you stick to the LG sandpit, where, I imagine, the readership is rather less discerning.

Subject: Great email/letter Jim [nt] From: Dermot To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 14:43:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: excellent jim From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 14:27:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: there is one question i was going to email mr schner, but thought I would run it past you all first... I wonder if he could tell us where, and when the interview took place, (if at all), who organised it, who'se initiative it was, who approached Leaders from elan vital/prem rawat's office. Most importantly.. did ANY money change hands ? I doubt if they have a readership though... just unaudited distribution. I wonder if it is ever even printed in any numbers, or just a nice way to sell advertising space in a vanity mag.

Subject: I wonder if he'll read it From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 14:25:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''....are you that cavalier about your magazine's reputation and credibility?'' I'm still not convinced that the mag has any reputation and credibility. In fact I'm still not convinced about anything at all to do with it. Perhaps it sits in the waiting rooms of freshmen Congressmen (the more savvy pols probably toss it out or it never gets past their secretaries) to impress their constituents but does anyone actually read it? I still think the targeted audience for the interview is the IRS. It was concocted so that Rawat can send a copy with his application for tax-free status for his new Foundation. I no longer smell fish only. I also smell rats. It sure would be nice to find out ALL about this.

Subject: I agree Pat.. very good point. [nt] From: Loaf To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 14:29:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Oh I hear you guys From: Jim To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 15:04:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I share all those same speculations and, at this point, expect nothing. Still, I had to write it. You know .....:)

Subject: Re: Oh I hear you guys From: Ben Lurking To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 15:47:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder if we good buy a small ad in leaders -some nothing ad, that would give us the opportuinity to buy the subcribers list and send or email your letter to all of the subcribers. I need to find one of these rags and see what the ad rates are. ben

Subject: the smallest add is a full page... $17000 ! From: Loaf To: Ben Lurking Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 15:54:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The psychology is, sell em a HUGE ad, or a flattering Advertorial.. and they are not going to want your magazine to be a fake (cos then they would look stupid).. anyhow the minimum is a full page. And as their circulation is 'unaudited' it means that they provided the information themselves... so it means nothing. Lets find out WHO in the US Government subscribes... or maybe its one of those freebies that never gets out of the cellophane wrapper.... IF it is ever printed and distributed at all !

Subject: Re: the smallest add is a full page... $17000 ! From: Ben Lurking To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 10:53:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the BPA shows there is no charge for the magazine - its advertiser driven, which drives editorial content. The have to verify that the subcribers are in the groups they say they are once a year.

Subject: continue the contact ,Jim From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 15:44:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you might suggest that they take an unprecedented step, in their history, and publish a followup in their next issue, or send out a letter in the interim, to all their 'subscribers/recipients', explaining that they have discovered that they were deceived, and wish to advise their readership of the material that has come to their attention, in the wake of publication. Something along the lines of their wishing to take the lead, in amendimg any misdirection that the article might otherwise cause trusting readers, saving them considerable losses that readers might incur, by making donations to the fraudulent foundation. Perhaps they might even wish to print a supplemental report, making public the material they have since uncovered about Rawat, which promises to be a far more fascinating article than the original piece was, to the readership. I defer to your established position as our spokesman to them, though I myself would address their editor in these words, if I were in a position to communicate with him. I don't have his email or land address to do so. And cannot read the adobe PDF document on the website, in order to fully absorb the flavor of the piece, as it appears at present. I intend to speak with my father about this magazine, as he was one of the figures they might have featured a few years back, and he may be able to tell me how the publication is viewed in the circles it is sent to. PS, Jim: if you have issues with the fact that this comes from me to you, try to forget that it's me. this is not a personality contest. this is too important for that. Let us press on. Janet Schwartz 310-399-3329

Subject: I doubt if they have readers Janet... From: Loaf To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 15:57:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and my suspicion is that they very well know this. My guess is that the mag exists to generate revenue from advertisers... and the advertisers (and its highly likely Mr Rawat paid) are the only people who will read it.

Subject: Re: I doubt if they have readers Janet... From: JHB To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 17:30:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and my suspicion is that they very well know this. My guess is that the mag exists to generate revenue from advertisers... and the advertisers (and its highly likely Mr Rawat paid) are the only people who will read it. --- Why would any advertiser pay $17,000 for an ad if they weren't certain that the ad would reach the intended audience? John.

Subject: who is the audience ? From: Loaf To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 05:52:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the articles are written NOT for examination by a discerning and educated audience, but for the subject's own approval. Who then are they writing for ? Whether or not the mag is printed and distributed, the main focus is on the advertiser... and I bet nobody gets an article written without money changing hands or adverts in place. So... if no self respecting high-powered executive would be seen dead reading the stuff (EXCEPT about himself)... $17000 seems like a waste of money anyway... the ad space is sold on the Assumption that 35000 unaudited distribution = a high % of high quality readership. Well... I am suspicious.. since nobody (not us, nor an advertiser) can Prove or double check the UN-Audited figures... lets assume the worst.

Subject: $17,000 is peanuts From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 13:41:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I spent that in one year on advertising when I first started my business 6 years ago. In fact most businesses budget 10% of their annual gross profit for advertising. Admittedly that was ten percent of my first year not month. But a business like my next door neighbor (a fancy crab and cocktail joint) which grosses 8 million a year can spend $66,000 per month. Most of the ads in Leaders are from billion dollar corporations. $17,000 for them is petty cash and they don't really care how many people really see the ad. It's probably also peanuts to The Pimple Rawat Foundation. An ad also lets you publish some vanity piece of your own. The mag doesn't have to pay writers, gets free copy to fill its pages and all the hustlers, hucksters and conmen are happy. The little guru-worship bash in Amaroo next weekend will probably gross 4 million and that's practically free and clear since there are no labor cost for the slave work-force oops volunteers.

Subject: Loaf and Ben Lurking re: Leaders From: Richard To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 16:08:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A lot of this and more has been covered thoroughly in at least the 4 threads listed below. A couple of points: Leaders is distributed free to a targeted demographic of about 35,000 corporate and world 'leaders'. There are no subscriptions. The circulation is audited by BPAI which is an independant and reputable publishing industry auditing firm. Without the audit, no serious advertiser would go near it. I'm not saying it's not a vanity publication - after all, much of PR and politics is about vanity and trying to convince others what you say about your self/company/product is true. Witness ENRON as an example of PR gone very bad. The $15 - 17K ad rate covers all publication costs and, presumably, nets a profit. Otherwise they would not continue publishing. That ad rate is high for a trade journal (specific to one field) but quite low when compared to Time, Newsweek, etc. that are read by millions. Getting a mailing list from Leaders would be impossible short of buying the company. http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=gl&id=4764.8235976505124#THREAD http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=gl&id=11553.83624161735#THREAD http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=gl&id=14099.671207835407#THREAD http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=gl&id=13578.8077255893989#THREAD

Subject: get another corporate rag to rebut or- From: Zelda To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 16:17:41 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: if someone can get the list of Leaders recipients- a rebutttal could be posted to a few key people.

Subject: That Leaders article is here From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 22:51:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As you may know, the Prem Rawat Foundation has a web site and has access to the leaders article about Mr Rawat on the site. Click the above link to see it. The Leaders article www.tprf.org/media_press_room.htm#leaders

Subject: He's turning into Sun Myung Moon! From: Nigel To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 17:06:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I swear that with every year that passes, his appearance and personal style resemble the big boss Moonie ever more closely. I am trying to imagine old those old-time long-term premies - the ones with the radical, non-materialistic, hippie tendencies struggling to hold down their vegan lunches.

Subject: Re: He's turning into Sun Myung Moon! From: Livia To: Nigel Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 18:47:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The whole look of the Prem Rawat Foundation website gives me the creeps. The omissions, the omissions..... When you think of what things were like in 72 - the warmth, the enthusiasm, the idealism - some of you may not agree with me but that's how it seemed to me at the time. And now, yes, the comparison with Sun Myung Moon is very apt. I thought the same thing when I looked at it earlier today. Weird, just weird. Love, Liv

Subject: You Brits aren't as dumb as Janet thinks From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 03:12:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (Just kidding, Janet. I know you didn't mean that.) Nigel: '' I swear that with every year that passes, his appearance and personal style resemble the big boss Moonie ever more closely. I am trying to imagine old those old-time long-term premies - the ones with the radical, non-materialistic, hippie tendencies struggling to hold down their vegan lunches.'' My oldtime premie pals that I got K with have put their idealism into environmentalism. They're all extremely green almost to the point of being like Ms Butterfly or whatever the name is of the green church-lady who perched in a tree for two years. For Rawat they reserve a less idealistic devotion - almost subdued and awkward. I could write an essay about this phenomenon because it almost ubiquitous among my old LOTU days' friends. Livia said: ''The whole look of the Prem Rawat Foundation website gives me the creeps. The omissions, the omissions..... When you think of what things were like in 72 - the warmth, the enthusiasm, the idealism - some of you may not agree with me but that's how it seemed to me at the time.'' Damn right there was ''the warmth, the enthusiasm, the idealism'' back in those days. It was ours. Rev Leech Rawat fed off it. And yes, of course he looks like Moon. In fact he looks more like Moon than Moon does. He also looks more like Chairman Mao everyday.

Subject: huh? where did i say that? wha? From: janet To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 05:29:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i have zero idea what you are tagging that comment to. are you looking at mike finch's post about the college in indiana? or what? seriously Pat. where did I insinuate that brits are dumb? I don't think that in the remotest. that's just plain weird! to all you brits, from me--you're unfailingly cool, every man (and woman) jack of you. altho you well know some of your countrymen can turn out to be positvely dotty at times. but that's another longstanding tradition i wouldn't change either. british eccentricity is a phenomenon in itself. ya gotta love it. I;ll take it any day, over, say, german perfectionsm???

Subject: I was teasing you, Janet From: PatC To: janet Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 13:51:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought your faux pas was hilarious. Honest - just teasing. :C) Britain vs the Real World www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=gl&id=1702.35688872403659

Subject: This slide show proves it's not a cult From: Sir Dave To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 08:37:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Click the above link and wait a bit while the slide show loads - it'll convince you that it's not a cult. It did me and I'm outta here and back to Prem Rawat land. Click and wait a bit for show www.tprf.org/

Subject: Re: This slide show proves it's not a cult From: Neville To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 08:39:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right! It's not a cult. It's a game show!

Subject: Are you feeling generous? From: Sir Dave To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 23:10:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well I don't know about you but I've just donated $100 dollars and feel really blissed out about it. It's so easy. Just type your credit card number and Bob's your Uncle - instant release of your funds. Click the above link and then click Giving on the left hand menu to give to The Prem Rawat Foundation. Donate to a worthy cause http://www.tprf.org/media_press_room.htm#leaders

Subject: Re: Are you feeling generous? From: Op To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 05:54:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Prem Rawat says that each expression of gratitude will be tax deductible. I guess that means that gratitude is now measured by money. I always thought that gratitude was a state of heart, an expression of thankfullness. Obviously I was wrong. Seeing that I am dead poor, have negative cashflow, all my credit cards have been withdrawn and my creditors are hounding me I guess I am no longer able to feel gratitude. Oh well there goes another human being that will be unable to squeeze past the pearly gates of heaven when the time comes. :) Shame really - but what the heck I am sure that Prem Rawat will still find many to dance in his heaven, to dance to his cash tune. Op - feeling a bit sarcastic and ironic today, also anger

Subject: to Opie. From: AV To: Op Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:55:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't worry mate, there are a lot of people who get queasy when they see 'inner peace' and 'outer wealth' toppings on the same pizza. Hope the cash situation improves....all that positive thinking and visualisation stuff can help too, energy follows thought etc. etc. AV

Subject: Being mean and petty From: Peter Howie To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 02:34:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The PR art work for that site - a few thoughts. It could well be meant to have parralells to the RR symbol for Rolls Royce or at least I can see the parralell. However it actually reminds me of the graphic used to portray Alfred Hitchcock - you know the head, tummy in sillouhette. Howevere this one is a really wierd sillouhette. Any guesses? Once I saw it like AH I couldn't see it any other way. Cheers to being mean spirited now and again Peter Howie Brisbane, Australia

Subject: Looks like a pair of tits to me From: Sir Dave To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 07:30:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you mean that logo on the grey background, it looks like a pair of tits to me. But maybe I'm not pure enough to see the real message behind the logo - that must be it and I should be ashamed of myself.

Subject: Being mean and petty From: Peter Howie To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 02:31:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The PR art work for that site - a few thoughts. It could well be meant to have parralells to the RR symbol for Rolls Royce or at least I can see the parralell. However it actually reminds me of the graphic used to portray Alfred Hitchcock - you know the head, tummy in sillouhette. Howevere this one is a really wierd sillouhette. Any guesses? Once I saw it like AH I couldn't see it any other way. Cheers to being mean spirited now and again Peter Howie Brisbane, Australia

Subject: Is there an illegal use here ? From: Rolls Ken Hardley To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 04:30:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well if there is any parralell of the RR insignia or representation there of, Some Lawyer (is there a lawyer here?) should contact BMW or VW, Im not sure who owns the logo. RKH esq

Subject: You know what, Rawat? From: Marianne To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 23:58:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Leaders magazine also goes to US Senators, like Dianne Feinstein, who was a city official in San Francisco when Jonestown happened. I am sure she will be interested in the comparisons from one of her constituents.

Subject: Re: You know what, Rawat? From: Ben Lurking To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 04:04:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder if Rolls Royce might think the foundation is infringing on thier trademark, I am sure that they would in no way want any market confusion if the real rawat was known. Its a blatant rip off of their logo. But from a sales and marketing perspective why give a free gift to poor shcmucks when you might be able to land a few whales who need some tax deductions and rawat would never need to fish again, imagine what would happen at amaroo if some ceo wanted to come - he is deinfetly changing his marketing focus and going whale hunting - I imagine all the poor loyal premies will soon be forgotten. Ben

Subject: Rawat looks like shit... From: Cynthia To: Ben Lurking Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 09:10:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder why he chose that picture? It's awful. That slide show reminds me of the old 'cinerama' movie theaters. Yucky

Subject: shit looks natural! From: i beg to differ To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 05:31:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you can;t say that about rawat, can you? see? shit wins. janet

Subject: Airbrushed shit isn't natural [nt] From: PatC To: i beg to differ Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 15:24:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: shit looks natural! LOL! [nt] From: Cynthia To: i beg to differ Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 11:12:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Parallels? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 19:11:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What must Rawat think when he reads articles like the one attached? It closes as follows: 'The church concealed the truth about this priest for decades, moving him from parish to parish, without any thought for the children,' Farnell said. 'There are going to be other victims out there. A pedophile does not just do this once.' Pedophile shell game latimes.com/news/local/la-041302chaplain.story

Subject: Is this healthy? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 18:13:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Amaroo I wouldn't mind losing several things in my life, but I cannot lose Amaroo now. It is so far away, yet close to my heart. All travel can be lonely but going there is a**** and long journey inside. There is no place like Amaroo. In Amaroo each event is unique. I remember myself at a happy party there, and I know that it is the right place for me now. Ivete Belfort Mattos Sao Paolo, Brazil From ELK, of course.

Subject: I only have one question From: New-Age Redneck To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:04:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: WHO ARE THESE POEPLE? The rhyme isn't, the meter sucks and you can't dance to it! I give it a zero!

Subject: 'Amaroo' - Plagiarism - can I sue...? From: Larkin To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 18:39:14 (EDT) Email Address: Larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: The Ballad of Amaroo An event's coming up down in eastern Australia They're setting much store by its profit or failure So unfreeze those assets, skip bail, jump parole Reschedule, reprogramme, remortgage your soul For a seat near the feet of your Lord and Creator Who after the vids will be steaming on later Buoyed up with Dutch courage to outline your goal - as pewks from all nations cry 'Oui, oui! - Jawohl! Yes, it's all going down up in Queensland this autumn With trinkets and mugs (like the mugs who just bought ‘em) Amazing - just four hundred bucks registration then spare some loose change for that ‘special donation’ Plus eight hundred more for a tent near a ditch Tho' bugs and mosquitos might cause you to itch But if snakebite should ail thee, you won't feel a thing 'Tis a precious experience (and just a big sting..) Amaroo, Amaroo They’re turning the screw To furnish the needs of Prem Pal, Satguru Come bruces, come sheilas The shearing's begun! See him fleece the whole flock In the bright morning sun.. They’ll tell you it's sultry in sunny Australia So watch out for snakes and respiratory failure But should you go down with a heat-stroke attack, Don't worry, they'll soon have the shirt off your back.. 'til refreshed and reborn in the makeshift canteen You'll then get to sample the no-star cuisine And if at this point you’re not feeling so ill Just wait till you glance at the size of your bill.. So wear a wide hat, splash on factor 19 Stay out of the sunlight and keep your nose clean For unseemly behaviour is not tolerated (Except when you’re Prem or his chosen x-rated) So while at the bar don’t get carried away or shout ‘Bhole shri satg’rudev fatso ki jai!’ You'll be out on your ear with the lessons you've learned When you look in the mirror you’ll see you’ve been burned.. Amaroo, Amaroo Yes he’s summoning you! Let us furnish His yacht with that solid gold loo.. Come bruces, come sheilas The shearing's begun! He’ll fleece the damned flock, Take the money and run.. The event's been and gone - was it such an ordeal? Did somebody murmur they got a raw deal? - a fistful of soundbites, some 'Happy New Breath' 'This Love..' 'This Creation..' 'This Life..' (but no death ) And you’ve heard it before, still you’ll listen again Provided it comes from that prince among men? That jolliest of swagmen, his jumbucks in tow Move over Ned Kelly – Prem Pal! - way to go! Once felons transplanted with ricketts and scurvy Did build a great land in a world topsy-turvy Believe me, those founders knew not how to steal... (But ‘it’s not about money – it’s just what you feel’..?) Well the Daintree is heaven, Port Douglas a joy There’s Darwin and Melbourne [Hi, Mel!] and Perth and Fitzroy There's Cairns, Coonawarra and Woolloomooloo But you emptied your tin out in wild Amaroo.. Amaroo, Amaroo hear it calling to you It’s time to get ready, It’s time for Phase Two! Come bruces, come sheilas Take leave of your mind While hope springs eternal – right up your behind !

Subject: There's a song there somewhere From: Sir Dave To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 23:41:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I left my heart in Amaroo-oo Amaroo on my mind Let's go - to Amaroo-oo Only, twenty four hours from Amaroo Amaroo-oo-oo for ever...

Subject: Here's one From: Dickie Pwikie To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 01:53:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Get Me To The Amaroo on Credit to the tune of Get Me to The Church on Time by Lerner and Loewe for My Fair Lady. I'm gettin' darshan in the mornin', Ding dong my mind is gonna fly. I'm getting darshan in the mornin', To The Prew Rawat Foundation I'm gonna tithe. Just pull out the stoppers, Cause he'll be telling woppers, Just get me to the Amaroo on credit!!!! original version www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Glade/7438/GetMeToTheChurch.html

Subject: Gerry, is that really necessary? From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 18:16:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I see that not only is the brain-dead troll who goes by the name 'Q...et' banned but the word 'qu..t' is too. Is that really necessary?

Subject: :) [nt] From: Jim To: ***************** Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 19:03:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: New Web Site Announcement From: sulla To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 18:09:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Subj: New Web Site Announcement Date: 4/10/2002 12:00:55 From: mailinglist@elanvital.org We are very pleased to be able to update everyone about a new web-site. The Prem Rawat Foundation web-site is now available at: http://www.tprf.org Visions and Elan Vital in the US, and other similar organizations, continue to support Maharaji's work of making his message available worldwide and warmly welcome this new development.

Subject: Live in US ashrams when they closed? From: Marianne To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 15:49:59 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: If so, please email me. I'd like to chat with you about it. Marianne

Subject: Anyone know Stacy Anne Adams ? From: Mike Finch To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 10:35:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I got this email some days ago from someone called Stacy Anne Adams. It's probably genuine, but being a little paranoid I wonder if anyone else here got it ? If so, has anyone taken any action on it, or spoken to the lady ? If no one else got it, how and why did I get it ? My name is Stacy Adams and I am a college student in Indiana. I am writing a research paper on cults and I was wondering if you could answer just a few questions for me. If not, I totally understand and apologize for bothering you. What drew you to the Divine Light Mission? Did you know someone that was already a member or did one of the members approach you? I've read that meditation was a daily part of your teachings and I am curious if you still practice that or any other techniques of spiritual nature that they emphasized. I am also trying to understand if the experience of being in a cult or extreme religious group deters people from religion. So, are you personally involved with church or any religious organization, and if so, which one? I appreciate your time and any help you can give me. Take care... -- Mike

Subject: i went to college in indiana From: janet To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 15:50:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, if you feel like it, forward the mailing over to me. I went to highschool in indiana and college for several years there, and had friends who went to other indiana colleges. Maybe i can probe this a little bit and see if it's genuine. there are some things i can ask, that i would be able to filter from real world experience, that you would not, being in Britain as you are. I'm either Jai_Choix@yahoo.com or mensabrains@webtv.net

Subject: Re: i went to college in indiana From: Mike Finch To: janet Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:47:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Janet Thanks for your offer to intermediate, but I emailed her and have got no reply, so I think that is the end of that. By the way, although I am English I live and work in Massachusetts. I also emailed you, but the email was returned as undeliverable to the email address you gave in your post !! Take care -- Mike

Subject: Britain and the real world! LOL From: Nottm Bunny To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 18:07:32 (EDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Janet You wrote 'there are some things i can ask, that i would be able to filter from real world experience, that you would not, being in Britain as you are.' It's a shock to me, after all this time, to learn that Britain isn't in the real world!!! I don't think that is what you meant, but it did read like that. Anyway, it made me laugh. BTW, Mike is from Britain but he's living in the States, presumably in the real world. Bunny:) PS Janet, I don't think it's a good idea to post your phone number publicly on this site which you have appeared to have done on your message to jim. There are some dodgy lurkers, never mind posters here at times as you know.

Subject: Posting phone numbers... From: Nigel To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 15:09:09 (EDT) Email Address: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Hi Bunny, I have posted my phone number numerous times on the forum and nothing but good has come of it (eg. calls out of the blue from many forum pals...real-life meets etc.) I think I would only be wary of doing it if my kids lived with me and there were a risk of heavy-breathers or premie psychotics on the other end of the line. But that hasn't happened yet and, anyway, Moley would have their goolies for garters if they tried anything.. Cheers, Nig

Subject: Our phone number.. From: Nige and Moley To: Nigel Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 15:15:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (0)151 281 3493 (Outside UK, leave off the zero) Give us a call, anyone who feels like it. (Premies included)

Subject: Yes but.............................. From: Nottm Bunny To: Nige and Moley Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 16:59:04 (EDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: .....................you are the dodgy Posters! Bunny:)

Subject: Re: Britain and the real world! LOL oh god.... From: janet To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 05:34:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yeah, it does come out sounding a little 'off', doesn't it? you know i meant, being as britain is a long way from indiana, and i wouldn't ordinarily expect a brit to have firsthand familiarity with the colleges of indiana. oy.

Subject: Re: Anyone know Stacy Anne Adams ? From: PatC To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 14:10:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've gotten emails like that but not from Stacy. I figure it's because I post my email address here and on the EPO White Pages. I always respond by referring them to EPO and apologising for not having the time to do their research for them. She doesn't sound like a net-nut but who's got the time to answer every email from strangers in detail?

Subject: Re: Anyone know Stacy Anne Adams ? From: ?? To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 12:33:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you could ask her for more details about her college program etc.,,, what school, what course, prof's name etc....

Subject: Re: Anyone know Stacy Anne Adams ? From: Cynthia To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 11:32:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, Did she give you an email address? I didn't get anything, but if ou've ever posted your email here it's easily obtained from searching the archives on EPO. Also, are you listed with your email in the EPO white pages? If she's genuine and is researching cults it's likely she has been reading EPO and the forum. Otherwise...I don't recognize the name at all.

Subject: The Epistle of Prem From: Rev John Hammond-Smyth To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:36:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And it came to pass that the Children of Prem had become few in number and the Lord didst worry in his kitchen, for the payments on the luxury yacht were due and the gifts and sacrifices that were offered unto him were not enough to even pay for the mooring in the harbour. And the Lord sayeth - Mine children are poor, like the creeping things that mine servant diggeth up in mine garden and though mine children laboureth day and night in between conferences, these delegates are of no use to me for mine glory doth outshine their sacrifices. And his brother who is Raja spake unto him, saying - Behold, I have seen a great wonder, for I have seen an scripture that is written that the wealthy merchants may read thereof. If thou wouldst write an epistle therein, the wealthy tribal leaders shall learn of your glory. And the Lord celibrated in his living room with a new bottle of holy water of Cognac and didst open the box of Havana cigars and didst say unto his brother - Thou always come up with the goods, which is why I keep you here. He that surrendereth his mind unto me shall stay in mine kingdom and sitteth in the front row of mine conferences and laugh at my jokes. For surely the measure of a delegate is his sacrifice unto me, and he who cannot sacrifice more than one thousand talents hath no need for a smart card and shall never dwell in the promised land of Amaroo. And the Lord sent forth his scribes unto the land of Leaders and they didst speak to the elders therein and didst prepare an holy scripture. And the Lord didst read it and saw that it was good. And the Lord sayeth - Verily, it is written that mine kingdom is not for everybody but for they that hath eyes to see and ears to hear and bank accounts to be emptied. And the children of Ex-prem rose up with one voice saying - This scripture is an abomination and the publishers thereof shall rue the day they spreadeth the word. For surely they that readeth the book, knoweth a good scam when they see one. And the children of Ex-prem didst write upon the holy tablets of Forum 7 and didst speak of many abominations that the Leaders wouldst know of the scam. And the boy David sayeth - He that gaineth the whole world yet forgetteth the plight of one small child, surely hath no place with the leaders of men.

Subject: thanks Rev (nt) From: Susan To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 18:28:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Rev it up, Rev...brilliant haha From: Ddermot To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 14:45:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Joy of Joys, King of Kings, the rev's back, yeah! From: hamzen To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:02:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a pleasure, AND on a Sunday. Is this a temporary resurrection Rev, I do hope not. I never did tell ya Rev, but it was your posts I looked for with pleasure when I first arrived, the only one who saw it as it was and could walk into the darkness all around with pride, right on rev, and keep those bass boxes booming.. Wonderful.

Subject: Thank you and thank you all From: Rev John Hammond-Smyth To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 07:38:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thy clarity and gratitude doth overwhelm me and moveth me to make an covenent unto this place, that I will write more upon these holy tablets in the future.

Subject: Right on Rev, more fighting talk From: hamzen To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 15:17:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It would also be nice to have a picture of you in your cell, you are still in your cell no? I would just hate to think it's some bright and breezy imposter on the make after a few pints, don't forget the dark shit rev eh!

Subject: and pass the basket From: praise the Loud To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 14:45:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: truly truly i say unto you, before the cock crows, ye shall deny me thrice! and he who was struck blind by a light greater than ten thousand suns while on the road to damascus did regain his sight full and clear, and they that did gather at the seventh forum saw a great wonder, for when the seventh seal was opened, they looked and saw that behind it, lay nothing! and a great murmur like the sound of many waters went up from the crowd, saying 'he hath deceived us, and is no Savior! and he who sold his Knowledge for thirty thousand pieces of silver, went out from that place in disgrace, and hanged himself. And in the Day of Judgement, he was cast into the pit of the fiery furnace, to burn forever and ever, amen.

Subject: Halle-freakin-lujah, Rev. [nt] From: Richard To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 23:43:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The Epistle of Prem From: Happie Frenchie To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 13:42:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Amen.

Subject: Oops, I forgot... From: Happie Frenchie To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 13:45:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Praise the Lard.

Subject: SUPERB!!! lmao nt From: Silvia To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 13:42:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: rOFL

Subject: LOL-a 'keeper'...nt From: Best of..... To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 12:35:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The Epistle of Prem From: Are you really a vicar? To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 11:05:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Forgive me if I'm completely barking up the wrong tree but are you a real Rev and did you ever live in London? (I think I once met a devout Christian with your exact name, but it was a long time ago)

Subject: Thou art forgiven From: Rev John Hammond-Smyth To: Are you really a vicar? Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 01:07:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thou barkest up the wrong tree. Verily, there have been many here who claimeth to have met me, which is a wonder in itself since I am a figmant of the boy (Sir) David's imagination.

Subject: for dwelleth there not From: Not entirely a figment To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 15:14:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for many a year, upon the Hill of Malibu, in Mansion of the Master, he who was known as a sycophant of The Oily one? and was he not also named John Hammond? And were we not also sore afflicted, and our labors increased, by his accomplice,the cruel and enslaving David Smith, whose name we also remember? yea, thou harkest truly, and thou combinest them well, for all to remember, unto the end of thy days. Let it be a sign and a lesson to all who assemble here, lest ye end up like them. And when ye hear the name ,'John Hammond-Smyth' let ye rejoice and give thanks, that thou didst escape that trap and reclaimed thy freedom, while yet thou lived!!! [sorry, sir dave, and everybody--it's just me. (Janet). I got carried away. it was too good. nevermind. just ignore me and just keep on telling the story....lol! I'll come back to church for this! hells, yes!.]

Subject: Interesting From: Sir Dave To: Not entirely a figment Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 07:07:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's an interesting angle, the John Hammond, David Smith thing. Maybe that's why so many people think they know the Rev.

Subject: Re: Thou art forgiven From: Cynthia To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 12:52:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And remember when I guessed it was you?:):) The Rev John-Hammond Smyth has been sorely missed upon these pages of the exiters and and cast-outs of the greatest lard who has ever inhabited this earth. Thank you Reverend. Amen and pass the mashed potatoes.

Subject: Amen [nt] From: Rev John Hammond-Smyth To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 07:04:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: want to be part of child abuse coverup From: Leaders certainly don't To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 08:17:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: not with the current climate and publicity the Papists are experiencing. I'm sure those that are made aware of the situation would no longer want to receive LEADERS.

Subject: About chilling out... From: Happie Frenchie To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 22:19:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, everybody Please, don't jump on my case, but I feel Pat W is right about the paranoďa that is sometimes diplay here (see his post about 'chilling out' below in Marianne's thread 'Who are you CPG ?'). But first of all, here's a bit of background about me : I used to post here years ago - Forum I or II, I believe - under Happy and Living in Paris, and I explained then who I was and why I left K. As for my new pseudo, the reason is simple : there was another Happy, people used to confuse us, so I changed it slightly - actually, Happy doesn't seem to post here any longer. I must remain anonymous because there are people who are close to me who are very involved in the upper-ish strata of EV or PRF, or whatever the name 'du jour' of the King of Con's organization may be. I started posting back here about two or three weeks ago and made the naive mistake of starting a thread last Saturday, under 'Prem, the busiest man on earth' (far, far below). I got scathing answers from Pat C and Janet who took me for a 'cult apologist' - I really can't see how, but anybody can make a mistake - and to my great sorrow, the bickering went on and on. Concerning CPG, I don't know who he is, and I don't care. The point is, I fail to see how his question to Michael Dettmers about the cyclist could be so threatening that it would induce that much suspicion. If the guy is a 'cult apologist', that's his problem. If he begins to have doubts about M, but is not entirely convinced that he's a fake, well, I find that understandable. Delusion is a drug. It takes time to wean oneself off it. Pat and Janet's reaction to my 'newness' here and anonymity got me thinking (nothing personal against them, but frankly, it shocked me). Remember how some of you used to be when you were a full fledged premie, in the ashram and all ? Because if you don't remember how you were, I certainly do. You - please, I'm not singling out anyone here, it's just the way most premies were then - used to drive me crazy with your heaviness, your righteousness, your bigotry, your fervor verging on hysterics. I received K in 76 but refused to join the ashram. Why ? Because I didn't want to give up my car, my paychek, my apartment. Because I didn't want to live in a monastery. Because I loved my work and didn't want to stop doing it so I could be sent wherever felt needed. Boy, the flak I got ! And I was suspicious to the 'good premies' because I didn't 'fully commit' and accept M. as 'the Lord' (I was and still am an atheist). I remember Doctor something (a shortish guy from DC, I believe, Ed, maybe ?) who was an initiator. He gave me this whole spiel about me not surrendering my life, the all 29 yards, to 'the Lord'. Not to mention Arthur Brigham, in Boulder, who laid his trip on me as only Arthur Brigham could. What I'm trying to says is, let's not demonstrate the same zealousness, righteousness and intolerance toward people who post here with questions or doubts concerning the fraud that is M. -- or even to some of those premies who come here to defend him. As a matter of fact, Michael Dettmers'answer to CPG was very cordial and straightforward. Of course, you and I know those premies are misguided, but put yourself in their shoes. If Internet and a forum like this one had existed 25 years ago, most of us at the time would have defended M just as those premies do now because we too were misguided and tragically fooled by him. The target here, it seems to me, is to expose M for the King of Con he is, not to blast the average premie who, or course, defends him -- or simply can't believe what he's reading, because, let's face it, it's a mind blower. We used to be that premie. Unless someone shows any real aggressiveness and abusive behavior towards what is done here, or insults the integrity of someone's account -- like Susan's horrid experience with Jagdeo -- or blatantly supports M in his lack of concern for the damage he has inflicted to his followers or his revisionism, maybe it would be better not to pull the gun on him or her too fast. It's very off-putting. I know, this is the kind of reception I got last week-end. Thank you all for reading this, Happie Frenchie

Subject: I agree , H Frenchie From: Tim G To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 03:03:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that, Intelligent response in my book. I do get irritated by the over the top reposts here to 'waverers' poking their toes in the water. Those that protest too much are often those that need to convince themselves or are carrying on a kind of reverse fanatacism. let's face it we used to lambast others with 'satsang' partly to maintain our own belief. OK, of course this is a free speech forum....so ultimately it's 'each to his own. Nice one Frenchie Regards Tim

Subject: Thanks, Tim (nt) From: Happie Frenchie To: Tim G Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 07:12:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: About chilling out... From: Jim To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 23:33:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi HF, Your post last week confused me as it apparently did PatC. As you guys discussed, it's ambiguity left me, and I guess Pat and others, wondering where your sarcasm was directed, at us or Maharaji. It looked like you two cleared it all up easily enough but then Pat made the point, way too sharply, in my opinion, that anonymity can't help but contribute to the confusion. I mean, that's true and all but once he knew what you'd really meant, I don't see why he had to snap at you like that. Perhaps he can explain. Janet just goes off like that, now doesn't she? She just loves to pontificate -- even if its about pontificating. She never apologizes either, which is kind of funny. Must be something in the water. But, HF, there are a couple of things going on here and one is trying to figure out who we're talking to and where they're coming from. Sometimes people get harrassed a bit because their sincerity's in question more so than anything particular they say. For example, CPG. I question his sincerity a bit but others, Gerry and Marianne, for instance, have already decided that they think he's here on a false basis. I don't know, Gerry's notorious for jumping the gun like that. For the life of me, I can't see anything that sets CPG apart from the average premie who shows up here. Yes, if you really think about it, he's certainly insulting, calling us all whiners who haven't taken repsonsibilty for ourselves, that kind of thing. But that's just garden-variety premie shit. If that's all he were saying, I'd have no time for him. But he's also asking some good questions and, like you, I can't think of any good reason to dismiss him out of hand. My antenna are out with someone like that. I think of timing, look at the context of their posts, try to consider what -- or what not -- they have to say about themselves, but I'm not going to slam the door on them so long as there's some apparently meaningful dialogue. Other premies, however, don't deserve anything like that. Take R2, for instance. Now here's a guy who lies straight up front. He's most certainly one and the same as another out-to-lunch premie who posted here before, Turner, yet he lies about that. How can you help but feel disdain right off the top when you're played like fools like that? You can't and Turner, sorry, R2, who, by the way, reminds me entirely of my old ashram buddy Jack Tuff, same well-expressed, uptight, cold-as-ice bullshit (indeed I think they're all one and the same, and you can probably throw a Nil in there too, if you want), deserve(s) no respect whatsoever as a result. Likewise Harry. People like these aren't posting in good faith. They simply aren't and deserve no particular welcome here. But I think it's a far, far stretch, HF, to try to analogize our arguments with these many stripes of people, some no more real than The Night of the Living Dead ghouls, to the righteousness we wrongly felt as die-hard premies. This is mainly a problem of identifying who's who in the shooting gallery and, as far as ideas go, this is most definitely a shooting gallery. Arguments for, argumetns against .... hey, it's fun, isn't it? Kind of. Unavoidable anyway. I must say that people like Pat and Gerry, who A this F, are the ones who have to do the dirty work, cleaning up detritus like that weirdo from Australia who was most definitely not what he claims, 'quiet' (I don't even know if that word shows up here, which is kind of strange). He pretended -- most definitely pretended -- to be somethnig he wasn't and these guys had to deal with it. Likewise, incomplete strands of human DNA like, **** (which I KNOW won't show up ...D***o, being the name). If these guys didn't maincure our lawn there wouldn't be any. Weeds like Q and D, and who knows who else, would completely take over. In your case, though, I do think you got a bit of a rough shot from Pat, I must say. It's far from true that by posting anonymously you forfeit any claim to a civil reception. I'm sure he didn't mean that. That's clearly not how he treats people generally.

Subject: Night of the Living Dead From: Happie Frenchie To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 06:43:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, Jim You are entirely right and I can't help but laugh about ' the incomplete strand of DNA' and your analogy concerning those people with 'NLD' ghouls. The image is scary but so funny. And of course, all too appropriate. And yes, the exchange is fun, I must admit, but I'm not sure I'd want to volunteer to be the target in this shooting gallery as you put it. You guys are way too good shots. But fun it is (some posts are just too hilarious for words). By the way, what means to 'A this F' ? I don't know the expression. Love, Happie -- and laughing -- Frenchie

Subject: A this F = Administer this forum [nt] From: JHB To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 15:46:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Well said, Jim. Apologies to Happy From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 03:42:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't apologise for my first post to him because I was responding to one of those ''no name'' posters. When I found out that it was Happy, I immediately realized that I had misinterpreted his sarcasm (which I at first thought was some facetious nonsense by an anonymous premie game-player.) But I can't apologise to Happy for that first angry post because I was not responding to happy but to a ''no name post.'' Then Happy got on his high horse which was completely foolish considering that it was his ill-considered action (posting with no name) which led to the misunderstanding in the first place. Then I got on my high-horse and over-reacted for which I do apologize to Happy because what I have read of his sofar has made me think that he's one of the good guys. So, sorry, Happy. I'm definitely not sore at you or anything like that and hope you aren't sore at me.

Subject: No hard feelings, Pat From: Happie Frenchie To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 06:20:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course not, none whatsoever. For all I know, if I was living in San Francisco, we would know each other and be best of pals. As I wrote to you then, I did understand the reaction, but I found the way it was expressed was unecessarily scathing. However, I'm not confusing it with the person you are. From your many posts that I have read here, you seem genuinely caring and you have a great sense of humor. And I thank you very much for posting to me on this thread. It does make me feel a lot better. As far my sarcasm is concerned, what can I tell you ? I'm French ! Besides, I really can't see any other way to be toward the King of Con (a great bilingual pun -- of which I'm rather proud. Just kiding ! And if you take the 'of' out, you're left with King Con... but I digress. The big furry gorilla is way more loveable than the lardy Malibu Fraud. He was an ape of integrity, which can't said about the ex- 'living munster'' (munster is a French smelly cheese) Love, Happie Frenchie

Subject: Re: No hard feelings - great From: PatC To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 13:04:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My only excuse, Happy Frenchie, is that I read your sarcastic post late at night after I got back from the restaurant and was feeling grumpy with sore feet and an aching back. But, then mon dieu, you jumped on your huffy French high-horse and so did I. I'm quarter French and you know we love to fight with everybody. Or is it just the French Huguenots from Provence? I know Parisians think the southerners are hotheaded barbarians. :C)

Subject: By the way, Pat... From: Happie Frenchie To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 15:02:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That explains it, especially if it was a French restaurant ! By the way, what I find hilarious in all of that is that not only did you mistake me for a 'cult weasel', but also for a guy... I'm a girl ! Hence the 'ie' in Happie and Frenchie... as in petit- petite, cheri-cherie and son on. Granted, you needed a crystal ball to guess this one ! But that's something a French woman could REALLY be sore about : to be called a weasel is one thing, but a man.... Of course, my apologies to the people of the male persuasion ! I love you all dearly...

Subject: By the way, Petite Grenouille From: PatC To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 19:12:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Happie Frenchie, I'm tres gaie so I treat men and women the same. But, I am pleased to find out that your are a woman who will stick up for yourself. I like tough women. My restaurant has a French name (family name) but the food is South African.

Subject: Re: About chilling out...rmember it's a cult From: gerry To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 23:28:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What I'm trying to says is, let's not demonstrate the same zealousness, righteousness and intolerance toward people who post here with questions or doubts concerning the fraud that is M. -- or even to some of those premies who come here to defend him. Happy, I don't think we really do. The mistake you made was that you should have re-introduced yourself and said you changed your name so people would recognize you. Things have changed after the CAC atack. It's a whole new ballgame now. Did you know a premie called the chief of Police in my town and that Marianne was getting calls to city officials in her town about her job? And Jim has been harrassed also. Other people too. We need to scrutinize these people carefully; christ, we even had a cult mole as FA of this forum for a while! (bazza)

Subject: Re: CAC attack From: Happie Frenchie To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 07:02:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Did you know a premie called the chief of Police in my town and that Marianne was getting calls to city officials in her town about her job? And Jim has been harrassed also.' Hi, Gerry No, I wasn't aware and I find it appalling and down right reprehensible. And you are right to react strongly against people doing that. I agree with you and it's in my post (' Unless someone shows any real aggressiveness and abusive behavior towards what is done here, or insults the integrity of someone's account -- like Susan's horrid experience with Jagdeo -- or blatantly supports M in his lack of concern for the damage he has inflicted to his followers or his revisionism'). I will never find any excuse whatsoever for people doing that kind of thing. Under any circumstances. Another thing. Excuse my ignorance, but what does 'bazza' means at the end of your post ? Happie Frenchie

Subject: Re: CAC attack From: gerry To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 14:23:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'bazza' is the nickname for a FA of the ex-premie forum who was either undercover or went back to tthe cult. But that's a can of worms we don't want open again. I don't know many details as I wasn't involved at the time.

Subject: Re: About chilling out...rmember it's a cult From: Marianne To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 23:31:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Happie, asking people where and when they got knowledge is something I often do when they first arrive on the forum anyway, so I don't see what the big deal is about it. And since CPG claims not to be very involved, I hesitate to see why these questions are such a source of concern.

Subject: Hi, Marianne From: Happie Frenchie To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 07:07:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're not targeted here, and I apologize if I made you feel like you were. Asking questions is cool, but there are ways of doing it, that's what I was trying to say. Happie Frenchie

Subject: Thanks Happie From: Marianne To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 08:58:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No problem. People are entitled to criticize or have other opinions about what is said or what approach is taken here. Thanks for your concern about CAC. Marianne

Subject: $7 Million Dollars Worth of Serenity From: Bai Ji To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 18:01:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Salutations to All my Dear Ones here. This yacht had to be one of the major Drips (thanks Anth) for me. First of all, I had no Idea that it existed until I read here. Second as stated below, what possible use for propogation did it serve. Unless as I said earlier it was the prototype of the Famous GMJ Boat that was going to take us across the Worldly Ocean of Maya to Obtain the Supreme Goal, Jai Dev, Jai Satguru Dev. Still, have not yet received my boarding pass for that little Suaire (m Shroud) SEVEN MILLION FUCKING DOLLARS! And here was I trying to save every dollar and cent of Premies hard earned money to spend wisely on items needed. Endless hours of care taken to not be wasteful. I didn't see too many other people around me going to such lengths. Then he spends SEVEN MILLION DOLLARS ON A YACHT? Good reason why it's not General Knowledge in the Premie Community. Do the math, what purpose does this serve? There is the argument of course that M only deserves the best. Durga Ji herself used to waffle endlessly about this... 'Sometimes I just look at Guru Maharaji and I go 'Man, he's SO classy!' Raja Ji and Guru Maharaj Ji are so beautiful together, you know. Today Raja Ji left to go to New York, because the premies there are having a retreat, and there's going to be about 3,000 premies I think. And he's going to fly there and take a chopper there. And he was all excited, you know. He just - he's really wonderful. He goes, 'I just want to go First Class. Everything just right.' And Maharaj Ji just arranged everything so beautifully for him, you know. Really perfectly. And it's so like, he always wants Maharaj Ji to just look beautiful, and have the finest things - which we all do. And it's like, Guru Maharaj Ji does too, but that isn't his goal. You know, it's not like 'Oh, I have to have these shoes, and....' It's just like, that's our opportunity, you know. And when I see Maharaj Ji - by his Grace that we've been allowed to maybe get him a really beautiful pair of shoes and a beautiful suit and a nice watch, and he just looks so magnificent, I just feel like 'Oh, man!' Non-premies, they just don't understand. They just don't understand. Because you tell a non-premie, like my mother, for example, how beautiful Maharaji is, she goes, 'Come on!' You know like, 'He doesn't look like Gregory Peck,' or something. And it's just so funny to see their face, because it's just like, man by Guru Maharaji's Grace, I'm so lucky, because I see him as the most beautiful human being. Because he IS. It's a concept that comes through and says 'Oh well he's not six feet two, and he doesn't da da-da da,' you know. And it's so beautiful to just look at him and melt. Taken from 'The Gateway to His Heart, His Feet' Denver Colorado, Sept 3rd, 1977. Some Things speak for themselves. P.S. Don't let the date fool you. Things have only escalated since '77 I am here to tell you that M's comfort reigns Supreme above and beyond Propogation. Unfortunately, it always has and always will be the dominant factor. Ask Marolyn. (who has access?) ask Daya ask Hansi ask Wadi ask Amar ASK PATRICK McCRACKIN! ASK CRAIG W Who Knows these guys? A lot of secrets are kept by the PAMs

Subject: Jet set ascetisism was confusing From: Jim To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 23:58:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That satsang really reminded me of a certain premie disconnect that really bugged me over the years. If we were renunciates, which, despite whatever former or current marginally-involved premies might say was, in fact, the name of the game (how do I know? Because HE said so, that's how), then why did we ever care about worldly quality for anything? Anything? A big one for me was how I looked. Reasonably vain like most people, I imagine, I've always cared about my looks. I don't know; I just wanted to look okay, I guess, you know? I mean sex was out. I knew that. I'd given my life to Maharaji so that was just Mr. Mind trying to beguile me with meaningless trinkets and throw me off my pursuit of the real jewels deep within. Yeah, I was down with that. But I still wanted to look good. And, worse, I still responded to beauty in women no matter what. I couldn't help it. I had to look, I had to feel that attraction, I just couldn't stop it. Normally, the drill was, a new beautiful girl showed up, either as an aspirant or maybe, holy cow, transferred in from some other ashram, and the trick was to just do a lot of satsang, see them as sister, find some fake pre-pubescent mechanisms for safe interaction. In my last years as a premie that wasn't working anymore and, god forbid, I started to 'fall' ...... Anyway, it all came to a head when I'd look at such beautiful women like Claudia and Marolyn back in the day. Just gorgeous, weren't they? And everything, just like Marolyn says, classy, elegent and cool. And for what? To be renounced and avoided? Tell me, don't you think that Maharaji was wilfully torturing us a bit? I mean, he flaunted that pleasure, that worldly comfort. Why? **************** As for the boat, the best part of the story is that Maharaji was secretly buying this extravagant toy at the very time he was sending his key fundraisers out into the communities to squeeze premies once again for whatever they could donate to the regular cult machine. Not an honest bone in his body, I'd wager.

Subject: Re: Jet set ascetisism was confusing From: Bai Ji To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 03:40:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As usual Jim, you are right on the button. My life as a Dog has been solely aimed at one purpose. My purpose had Integrity, Sincerity and Commitment. Unfortunately, His purpose was to take my devotion and utilise it to extract every material gain possible from me. When finally sucked dry and beyond any useful purpose to him and even myself, I was cast aside with no concern for my wellbeing or state of Heart or mind for that matter. My Truest Friend presented me with the biggest drip of all, his indifference to my Lifelong Longing and Devotion. Jim, In the past, there have been times when I have exclaimed aloud in the company of my own presence at your exasperating bloody mindedness re thinking and expressing ideas clearly here. I now relish reading your posts as I see how shabby I have been in taking responsibility for my own thought processes. Discrimination, Logic and Courage to hold things up to the light of Common Sensical evaluation are all joys and strengths that I hope to exercise more and more. Thanks for being fearless. Bai X

Subject: ''My life as a Dog!'' - You are so droll, Bai Ji From: PatC To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 13:39:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said about Jim: ''I now relish reading your posts as I see how shabby I have been in taking responsibility for my own thought processes.'' Yes, he's good at demanding responsibility for our thought processes but I enjoy your posts too because you are so damn funny sometimes in your inimitable way. You should talk to Jim on the phone sometime. I think you will be surprised and tickled. I'm glad to see that you're back on-line and sounding feistier everyday. I hope you are well and strong.

Subject: Re: ''My life as a Dog!'' - From: Bai Ji To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 18:27:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello my Dear Pat C, I hope you are Wonderful and not working too hard... (Impossible in Catering I know) I'm Limping along on my way to freedom. I remind myself of a very sad Dudley Moore. Crying behind a thin veil of humour. Sorry I have been so withdrawn re contact. I am still all over the place. There was a Dear Doggy death in the family also and my sadness was compounded all over again. I bet you're glad you waved at me Now that I have cheered you up no end! Mucho Love to you and yours Bai Ji XXXX

Subject: linda grossa 2 nt From: aha To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 13:48:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yeap

Subject: Re: $7 Million Dollars Worth of Serenity From: Cynthia To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 23:32:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh Bai Ji, I remember that satsang from Durja Ji so well, I thought for a moment you were imitating her--and well! I remember the satsangs Durja Ji used to give. I ate them up for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Who but Durja Ji could I not envy more when I worshipped Maharaji? No one. No more. $7 million for a boat to brag about and use for his own luxury. God knows how much for the jet. And I have a feeling he uses that jet for a lot more than propagation based on the numbers. And all those houses? And the premies who toothbrush clean his rooms? I know, I know, I did it at DECA. At the offices. Just remember this: a family is as sick as the secrets it keeps. Food for thought, eh? A big 'ole hug to you and I hope you're coming along in your process. Love, Cynthia

Subject: Interesting site re cults & persuasion From: Carl To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 16:32:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's an interesting site ( www.influenceatwork.com ) about the current understandings in the field of psychology concerning persuasion and how individuals, organizations and nations both use and are influenced by a variety of techniques of persuasion. There are several sections concerning cults. They are in the 'academic' section. I admit I haven't thoroughly dug around in the site. I heard about it from an NPR interview with the author, Kelton Rhoads. I've just begun to dig around but it sure looks interesting, especially for those of us that have been directly influenced by cult techniques. If this is old news, or if someone has already heralded this site, sorry. I'm finding it pretty interesting, though. Cheers all, Carl

Subject: to Carl re; Cult symptoms. From: AV To: Carl Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 15:24:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a coupla years ago my folks told me; 'when you got involved with the guru, the light went out of your eyes..' too weird , I thought I was shining... (who didn't)

Subject: Blissful little Stepford children From: Carl To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 09:39:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep, trash the old belief system and slam in the new Hindu 'upgrade'. Voila! Instant yogis! Masters of comparative religion! Insufferable little twits!

Subject: Here's a link / nt From: Carl To: Carl Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 16:35:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: http://www.workingpsychology.com/cult.html http://www.workingpsychology.com/cult.html

Subject: Good find, Carl, especially this: From: cq To: Carl Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 10:29:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Nine Symptoms of Cult Influence In the same way that a doctor looks for symptoms to help detect a disease, the following symptoms warn us that a family member or friend may have come under the influence of a cult. Of course, not all of these show up in every case, but they provide a red flag that something may be wrong. No single symptom may be conclusive, but you should be suspicious if you see several of the following symptoms together--and remember that the more quickly cult influence is detected, the easier the rescue. 1 Personality changes: Do you find yourself saying, 'He's a different person,' or, 'I don't know her anymore'? Destructive cults successfully replace their members' personalities with new identities. 2 Dramatic shifts of values or beliefs: Of course, values and beliefs change gradually over a lifetime--but psychological research has shown that beliefs and values are highly resistant to dramatic short-term change. Such radical changes require extreme situational influences such as those provided by skilled cult leaders. 3 Changes in diet or sleep patterns: Cults will often restrict the diet and sleep of members, possibly in an effort to hamper normal, rational thought processing. In addition, the vegetarian diets commonly required by cult leaders allow the cults to feed members cheaply. 4 Refusal to attend important family events: Family members pose a strong threat to the influence of the cult. As such, many cults refuse to allow members to attend family events such as marriages, sick relatives, graduations, etc. 5 Inability to make decisions without consulting a cult leader or guru: One of the signs of dependency upon a cult leader is the loss of personal autonomy. 6 Sudden use of a new ideology to explain everything: Like a harpist playing an instrument with a single string, a cult member uses his or her new ideology to explain the entire world--even when it's wildly inappropriate. 7 Black and white, simplistic reasoning: Underneath all the complicated jargon, you'll find a cult recruit dividing his or her world into 'good' and 'bad'. The shades of grey in which we all live are usually intolerable to a cult member. 8 New vocabulary: Is the person suddenly using complex jargon to obscure irrational or simplistic thinking? (Although this could merely be a sign of attending graduate school!) 9 Insistence that you do what they are doing: Recruitment is one of the first duties a new cult member is given. It consolidates the recruits beliefs while it inflates the cult's ranks. click here for full page www.workingpsychology.com/cultdef.html

Subject: Cults all: Peoples Temple, DLM/EV/TPRF From: Marianne To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:01:02 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: When I left DLM in 1976, I did it alone and figured I was making an individual decision. What bothered me the most was M's increasing focus on amassing wealth and property, while at the same time premies were sacrificing their futures so he could be enriched. But I thought the whole thing was more or less benign when I walked away. Then I was involved in the Peoples Temple/Jonestown trials in San Francisco, and began to see amazing parallels between the organization and devotees. I was shocked. I began my reassessment of DLM/EV at that time. When I found EPO in 1999, the historial comparisons were undeniable. I don't care what the premies say -- I was personally involved in the Peoples Temple/Jonestown aftermath, and the similarities are frightening. I never saw it clearly til then. Marianne

Subject: Er.. maybe? From: Scott T. To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 14:24:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Looks like common sense to me. Where's the big insight? I'm suspicious of anyone selling an influence program, especially if it's built on psychological precepts without sociological grounding. What we're dealing with here is basically the behavior of groups, not individuals. I see the same sort of mistake in dealing with the suicide bomber phonemenon, thinking in terms of mental illness rather than a group dynamic that mimics the symptoms of a mental disease. But I don't know enough about this methodology to really criticize it yet. It may be very well thought through. I'm also a little suspicious of any organization that sells influence methods to the highest bidder, too. Strikes me as bordering on prostitution. Who are these guys, if they're not spooks? But again, I don't know much about them. Just expressing my reservations. --Scott

Subject: Sure, common sense . . . in hindsight From: Carl To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 17:26:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh yes, they may be hustlers, who knows? Most people are hustling one thing or another. But have you looked around the site? There are a number of amusing scenaria or mini case studies, and some of it reminds me how insidious are these techniques of persuasion, and how vulnerable we all can be without a dose of vigilance. It is not a bad thing to be reminded to remain vigilant. Best wishes to you.

Subject: Great links: Cult Education From: Crispy To: Carl Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 12:29:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great links, guys, thank you! I noted the references to Steven Hassan's Combatting Cult Mind Control , and Margaret Thaler Singer's Cults in our Midst , to which I'd like to add my 2 lentils worth as recommended reading for anyone still wondering if Mj and DLM/EV/PRF could be a cult in any way, and if so, what exactly were the mind control dynamics in play that hooked us all. I would credit Combatting Cult Mind Control for catapulting me over the immense exit curve very quickly. It was easy to drop/let go of all the hooks I was still reserving once I was alerted to the dynamics I fell prey to. Even though Hassan draws from his experiences as a former Moonie, there were too many parallels and similarities to premiedom to ignore. It was a real eye-opener and I'd recommend it to anyone still doubting or wondering if they're in a cult. I denied to the teeth for decades that I was in a cult, arguing that I had my own experience - but that was as far as I could see; that kept me hooked and locked right there. I'm also attaching a link that Pullaver posted a few weeks back (thanks Pullaver) for more on this topic. This essay's by an exiter of Siddha Yoga who went on to study cult psychology as well, and centers more around the traumatic abuse aspects of cults. http://hometown.aol.com/shawdan/essay.htm What would REALLY be great, is someone who has left Mj and then studied cult psychology, to write a book on same. ? http://hometown.aol.com/shawdan/essay.htm hometown.aol.com/shawdan/essay.htm

Subject: The way we were ... ? From: cq To: Crispy Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 14:26:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'The hunger for spiritual guidance and religious truth is often what impels people to explore religious groups. Problems arise when the leaders of these groups proclaim themselves to be living embodiments of this truth. The danger of cults lies in the leap one must make, from embracing religious truth, to worshipping a person claiming to be this truth. The danger increases when this person promises salvation, redemption, or perfection, in exchange for money, goods and services. While religious teachers are as entitled as anyone else to earn a living by selling their teachings, the claim that a leader is a perfected master is a common denominator of destructive cults'. Ain't that the truth?

Subject: Re: The way we were ... ? From: Crispy To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 19:38:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Truthful' summation, cq And someone also wrote that the problem with cults is not the lies they tell, but the truths. ....That's partly true, and partly not true: True in the sense that the truisms used are what hook and trap people inside - when anyone can learn/know/understand same without, or outside of, the cult. But false in the sense that the lies are just as dangerous, with the really damaging lie being what they DON'T tell you, or the truth(s) & facts they hide from you. Go figure.... So folks, what you don't know about your cult WILL hurt you. Crispy, mindfucked confusion in the name of clarity

Subject: Catching up From: Jerry To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 16:14:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't check into the forum as much as I once did, but today I've been browsing through the posts and this guy Harry doesn't make much sense to me. He seems to be selective in what he believes and what he doesn't. He 'assumes' Jagdeo is guilty, but sees no reason to believe Maharaji had any knowledge of his actions. This makes no sense because the person who accused Jagdeo of his crimes also says she spoke to Randy Prouty, and Judy Osborne, and was assured by them that they relayed the message. So what is it, Harry? Why would you believe that Susan is telling the truth about Jagdeo, but not about Prouty and Osborne? Do you see where you've gone wrong there?

Subject: Re: Catching up From: PatW To: Jerry Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 16:27:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why this obsession with what people initially believe or don't believe. It takes time to reach conclusions. Let's let these people take their time and treat them repectfully.

Subject: Re: Catching up From: Harry To: PatW Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 18:43:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Patrick, Thanks for your civility. My answer to the questions that sandwich your post is simple and not at all arbitrary: I believe that Jagdeo's abuse of Susan did, in fact, happen. I don't believe that word of his abominations reached Maharaji. This is based on common sense and simple logic. If none of the people in the 'chain' of communication, including people who are doing their level best to smear Maharaji, had heard of this at the time, then most likely neither did he. If you stop trying to make him guilty of anything and everything for a few seconds and look at that simple fact, you might see it. Also, Judy Osborne, who was supposed to be a conduit for this info, doesn't remember ever telling Maharaji. She's a professional midwife of impeccable integrity whose life is dedicated to child health and safety. You don't think relaying that sort of information would stand out to her? I trust her wayyyy more than some of the folks you believe so readily. As much as you might want to make her, me and anyone else who doesn't see things exactly the way you do, Jim (thank God I don't have such a narrow, nasty, shitty outlook on life!), a villainous, cult apologist, we're just people. Mostly very good-hearted, sincere people. People who would NEVER protect or condone child abuse, no matter how many tilaks the perpetrator has on his forehead. Get it? Did he do it? I think he did. Was it relayed to Maharaji? Donner (in charge of initiators) didn't know. Dettmers didn't know. Residence staff didn't know. Unity school teachers didn't know. I was around him a lot. Didn't know. Where's that famous logic, Jim? I'm off for the weekend, boys. I'm sure you'll keep the bonfire burning without me. How's the music, Patrick? toodle-oo, Harry on behalf of Garden Variety, Impotent, Callous, Uncaring Apologists & Trolls for Truth, Perspective & Fairness, LLC

Subject: Jagdeo. From: AJW To: Harry Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 10:13:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Harry, Jagdeo's crimes were reported to Gurucharanand, by one of the victims' father, Judy Osbourne and Randy Prouty. Judy reported back to the victim who told her, and said Rawat knew already about it. Judy never said she didn't tell Rawat. She only said she, 'Couldn't remember.' There was also a report that a conference was convened in Florida, with Maria Isabella, to discuss what to do about Jagdeo. Jagdeo was also discussed at international conferences by small groups of co-ordinators. Harry, if you've been around for a while, you know that premies are afraid to fart without Rawat's permission. In this atmosphere- do you really think all those instructors and co-ordinators who knew about it, actually hid the news from him? Do me a favour. Of course he knew. Jagdeo is his old pal. When the complaints became too loud, Jagdeo was limited to touring in the Far East. Do you think this was all without Rawat's knowledge too? Wake up and smell the coffee Harry. Anth Ginn.

Subject: Nice to see you. Anth From: PatC To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 14:10:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just thinking about you yesterday. Hope you are fit as a fiddle and ready for love.

Subject: Yes, an Nigel the other day -- of course From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 14:56:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's always good to hear from these guys. So many new, good voices showing up and that's great too. Hey, it's all good.

Subject: But where the hell is Moley? [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 19:03:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I

Subject: Re: But where the hell is Moley? From: Moley To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 19:19:50 (EDT) Email Address: Moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Right here Sweetie Pie. Lookin' over ma man's shoulder keepin' ma mouth shut like a good woman. Too busy shaggin' to do much posting... Been looking at FV archives... halcyon days. It's been me and Nige's 12 month anniversary this weekend. And you know all about that. Fancy an email? xxxx Moles

Subject: Holy Cow! That was quick From: PatC To: Moley Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 19:35:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've missed you guys but figured that you were busy. ;) I just hope that you are both healthy. I know that you are happy. I have to go back to the salt-mines and can't stop to have one of our real time conversations right now. 12 months? Time sure flies.

Subject: Re: Holy Cow! That was quick From: Moley To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 15:41:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep, happy. You're bang on the nail aboot healthy! Not so sure on that one.... off to post on Mile Dettmers thread xxx

Subject: I heard she ran off with Bazza [nt] From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 19:16:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yep. always was a sucker for sad bastards [nt] From: Moley To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 19:22:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Catching up From: PatW To: Harry Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 06:36:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Harry...Mike Dettmers personally told me that he got a message to Maharaji about this incident. I suggest that if you want confirmation that Maharaji received it, you might want to contact Mike directly. I am sure Mike will be forthcoming. He is a very approachable fellow. I definitely heard a report that Maharaji was informed about Jagdeo and was annoyed to be bothered.... It was the premies problem. Fact or rumour? Check it out - or believe what you wish. Music's going fine thanks!

Subject: Re: Catching up From: Jerry To: Harry Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 20:18:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Harry, Maybe you're off enjoying your weekend but maybe when you come back you'll discuss this issue more. The question remains why do you think Jagdeo did it but Maharaji never heard about it? What's it about Maharaji that makes him so immune to you accepting allegations about him, but not Jagdeo? Could it be you've placed M on a pedestal that you haven't Jagdeo? Maybe there's not much to lose if Jagdeo is a pedophile, but if Maharaji knowingly protected him, well, that unravels the whole illusion you have in your mind about him, doesn't it? He becomes just another fallible human being. Maybe he can still preach a good line about the inner truth and all but, hey, who can't? Talk is cheap. What matters is the source of that talk, and if it comes from a protector of pedophiles for the sake of keeping up appearances, then Maharaji's not really the guy qualified to be talking all those pretty things you like to hear, is he? He wouldn't be the first one. The devil speaks with a silver tongue, y'know. He sure does.

Subject: The Trouble with Harry From: Jim To: Harry Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 18:49:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Harry, for one who claims to be such a straight-talker you sure depend on innuendo a lot don't you? Are you saying that Susan lied about telling Randy Prouty and about him telling her that he'd tell Maharaji? Are you saying that she lied about her conversation with Osborne a couple of years later? What?

Subject: Harry and his Cal Pal From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 18:56:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you read California Premie guy's answer to Dettmers, he is quite vicious, as is this Harry character. Two peas in a pod cheering each other on. It's quite possibly a premie apologist tag team.

Subject: Excuse me, Patrick From: Jim To: PatW Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 16:45:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, Before your post I was about to post something similar regarding CPG only. I don't think he's necessarily 'suspicious' as Gerry, Marianne and others do. I do think, however, that, like I said, trust is a two way street and, on a simple human level, if he wants maximum assistance, cooperation and respect here, he should pony up with something. Maybe contact one of us regulars by email, maybe tell us a bit more about his past. I don't know. Of course he doesn't have to do anything like that. On the other hand, if he really is sincere and all that, I can't see why he wouldn't want to either. But Harry, Patrick, is an entirely different story. He's a regular, garden-variety cult apologist and Jerry's questions are complete appropriate. Why would he arbitrarily believe Susan about Jagdeo but not about what Prouty told her? It's a great question. Wish I'd thought of it myself. :)

Subject: Who are you, CPG? From: Marianne To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 13:53:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Since you want to know so much from us, just who are you? You say you're just a garden variety premie who is trying to sort it all out. In that case, why are you anonymous? Where and when did you receive knowledge? Who initiated you? What communities did and do you live in? You see, the tactics which 'Harry' has employed in his discussions with you and others here are taken from the cult playbook. You don't know who he is and neither do we. He hasn't given one piece of information about his identity or role in the organization which would allow you or anyone else to suggest what he says is credible. Why do you give what he says any weight whatsoever? Then, to top it off, he attacks Michael Dettmers, without giving any facts to support why he disbelieves him. This is what cults do when people leave the fold and tell the cults' secrets: they try to attack the people they formerly trusted. Take a look at what has happened to folks who left Scientology. Peoples Temple and Jim Jones did the same thing to those who left that group. Anonymous character assassination is one of the main weapons in the cult's arsenal. That's what CAC was all about. This fictitious Harry is just doing the same thing, but in another venue. And let me tell you this: If what Michael Dettmers said about Rawat killing the cyclist was untrue, there would have been a lawsuit filed about this long ago, not only by Rawat but by Randy Prouty too. There are plenty of first hand accounts here to back up the information you're questioning. Start telling us more about yourself and then maybe you won't run into the static you're starting to get. I was skeptical when you first began posting, and then gave you the benefit of the doubt. Today I read everything you've posted. If you came here to find legitimate answers to your questions, you are ignoring posts by people like Jim Sander, Dettmers and Donner, Susan Haupt, and many others. When you credit a ghost like 'Harry' as opposed to these first hand reports, then I have to question your real reasons for being here. Why not tell us more about who you are if you want us to talk about these things with you? If you find my post a touch harsh, I hope that you realize I have come to expect the worst from the cult given their personal attack upon me. I find it hard to understand why you would credit someone who is anonymous and about whom you know exactly nothing in the face of first hand reports by people whose names are public and who have offered to talk to you by email or otherwise. Marianne Bachers San Francisco, California

Subject: Re: Who are you, CPG? From: CPG To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 23:06:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Are you now or have you ever been a premie apologist?' Excuse the the twisted McCarthism humor; you guys have been great. I really do appreciate all the time you all have taken to write to me. You have made me think, challenged my assumptions, and yes, made me laugh. Since I am so new here, I am sure there is a history that explains this kind of paranoia. I just can't guess what it could be. What is an agent provacatuer? Someone who comes on here surepticously to try to win you back? I haven't sensed a murmer of openess to Maharaji here. If I wanted to 'propogate' -something I haven't had any success at or really tried much since '81- I'd have a better chance knocking on my neighbors door. I hadn't thought of the possibility that Jim mentioned, someone trolling to see exactly what you have in the way of proof, then it occured to me- if you had more why would you hide it as opposed to posting it on EPO? I can't think of a single possible reason why you wouldn't. Thee is plenty of other stuff posted there. Anyway, there very well might be reason for this kind of suspicion but it has me stumped.

Subject: Good point, CPG From: Jim To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 23:45:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hadn't thought of the possibility that Jim mentioned, someone trolling to see exactly what you have in the way of proof, then it occured to me- if you had more why would you hide it as opposed to posting it on EPO? I can't think of a single possible reason why you wouldn't. That's largely true. However, an agent provocateur could, arguably, want to verify that there's nothing else up our sleeves, that kind of thing. Who knows, huh? The fact is, over the course of this online ex thing, there has indeed been this kind of spy-vs-spy stuff. Not a lot, mind you, but it's happened. I'd tell you more but, alas, I'd have to kill you. [Lame joke -- can't believe I said it ....]. But maybe, one day, when you're a nice Level 4 Ex-Premie, we'll let you in on some of the briefings. Just preliminary stuff, of course. But something. :)

Subject: the trouble is From: yea but To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 01:55:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: no-one but disgruntled losers take you seriously anymore Jim. You are presently the laughing stock of the Leaders Magasine staff and all self respecting pwk have walked from your room.. And now you're promising to let CPG in on some of the briefings if he becomes a Level 4 Ex-Premie? I'll grant you, he's naive and silly (for being here at all) but even Californians aren't that dumb. Now you'll say 'I was joking about all that.' yea, of course This delusion has become a cartoon comedy.

Subject: I bet you think Pauline Premie is real too. :C) From: PatC to Mr Nonymous.com/Unix To: yea but Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 03:55:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What an idiot; or are you drunk? Jim's jokes are obvious to everybody in the world except for people whose minds are trapped in Rev Rawat's personality worship cult-think - you know - struggling not to have concepts, suppressing judgement and discernment, rationalizing and justifying his irresponsibilty and your solipsism? You give off such bad vibes, bro, that I bet you twitch uncontrollably. What an ugly little weasel you are, Mr Nonymouse. And, even if you think you're only ''playing a game, a role on the net,'' the more you play this ugly little role the more like the persona you will become. Your thoughts affect you. Ugly thoughts such as yours can make you sick. You need to take some meds for that bile. The end (sticking up for Rawat) does not justify the means (being an anonymous whiny weasel.)

Subject: Not at all, just another mask you hide behind From: Mr Nonymous To: PatC to Mr Nonymous.com/Unix Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 01:52:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'she' is someone you trot out when you know you've made a person a touch too wary of you by abusing them completely out of left field for no reason whatsoever. Your introduction to PP is called, sucking up, brownnosing. Your 'excuse' to Happie Frencie btw was laughable...'I only abused you because you had no-name.' errr, ok. funny then that your abuse was centred entierly on what HF was saying rather than his anonymous status. Ah, better not look too close to that embarrassment eh? PP is merely another vain blustering attempt to get people to see the 'wacky loveable' side of Pat C who unfortunately has proved himself to be fraught with bitterness, anger and a resentment that borders on the fanatical when it comes to deriding others who he perceives to be the 'enemy'. So, rather than hope the Californian Premie meets Pauline Premie. Don't touch it CP because that will be a sign you have fallen for the Conbull one time too many.

Subject: Drunk again, Mr Nonymouse/Unix? From: PatC To: Mr Nonymous Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 03:57:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First, get an editor. You are a ponderous and pompous writer and barely literate. Secondly - you don't make too much sense. Are you sure you also are not a figment of the imagination of the creator of Pauline Premie - who, BTW is not my creation as you seem to imagine. Pauline's creator is actually a much better satirist than me? (Satire needs to be dry and I am anything but. I'm a clown. My creation is Thelma.) Thirdly you're so damn gloomy. No wonder you can't see jokes. Lighten up. Be enlightened. Lighten your load. Get rid of that heavy massa on your back. And why aren't you in Amaroo getting drunk with your massa?

Subject: Absolutely not From: Recipient: To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 12:45:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am an editor.....And I only ever get drunk in the company of smart, self confident, highly intelligent men and sassy, hip, smart ,sexy, flirtatious women. That's the only time it's worth it because only then can anything interesting take place. Drunk here on the net??? What the hell for?? now ...if that's the case. (And only you guys who do it ,know that it is the case.) Well that's a real problem. Being drunk here is like being drunk at your local council meeting. In other words.... ....hey dude....It aint that important to do that!!! But yea, I will indeed be getting drunk 'with my massa'. My true wish is that you could be as well, doing the same thing. And I am a little sad that it is not the case. Because it is going to be beautiful ::: SSJMHRJ Circa 2002 Imagine this. That incredible 12 year old has grown up!!!!! Absolutely incredible:) Can you just imagine for a second - the Maharaji that really is as beautiful as you dared to imagine and then feel, once???? And not the fat, greedy, spiteful, dishonest, idiot, fraud foolthat you castforever in stone in your oversped untamed minds? I mean......who's kidding who here? Wasn't it about getting high? And listening to those that rise a touch higher than you? Instead of trying to shoot them down? Well........ Guess who?????????

Subject: Thanks for the sermon, David R From: PatC To: Recipient: Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 13:43:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That post was written in your inimitable style, David. You know - one sentence paragraphs - cutely spaced out over an entire page? Also, thanks for blowing your cover on LIG. You must have been drunk. You first posted there as ''Postal Monitor'' using your Nonymouse/Unix thingy and then posted as ''Postal Monitor'' using your Mac. I guess you're so excited about Amaroo that you forgot how much effort you put into your Nonymouse cover - and ooops - you blew it. You also blew your populist image on LIG badly when you said: ''We are still a mile ahead of so many seriously lost people who are living in this world today.'' You must feel so very superior to the rest of us peons belonging to that elite God-squad er cult as you do. The chosen people; the master race. Sieg Heil! Enjoy your concentration camp-out in Amaroo. Or is a revivalist rally? Whatever - the Nazis also had fun at their rallies.

Subject: Re: Who are you, CPG? From: Marianne To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 23:22:12 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: CPG, you did not have the pleasure of reading the CAC site. As I said in a post below, it accused me of committing crimes and also of being mentally unbalanced. The site caused someone to write to other lawyers in my community and make false criminal allegations against me. The information on the site about me took several pages to print out. Why anyone would want to do this is beyond me. All I do here is post what I think. Perhaps you ought to consider why members of the cult felt so compelled to do this to me, and to the others who were listed on the site. My paragraph of questions to you is a blip on the radar compared to the smear tactics that were perpetrated against the exes who were named on the CAC site. That is what has made me more suspicious about people who post here. If you are genuinely trying to sort out your questions, then I apologize for questioning your sincerity. As for Harry, the manner in which the cult has conducted itself -- particularly by refusing to compensate Abi-- and the lies it posted on the EV website about how the cult was started and about M and his actions, and where his money came from, have led me to distrust everything that comes from someone in the upper echelons, as Harry must be to have access to Rawat. People spent a lot of time 'trolling' EPO and spent a great deal of time and money in order to create the CAC site. So the supposition that someone might be posting here to do the same or some other nefarious thing is a reasonable consideration for some of us. Marianne

Subject: Re: Who are you, CPG? From: Cynthia To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 23:14:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear CPG, It isn't necessarily paranoia on Marianne's part--it's experience. You came here and haven't really told us much about yourself. You could still remain anonymous as some premies and ex-premies do but a bit of information would help us to relate and communicate with you--it helps us all to get a picture of who you are, where you are (not physically), and what you're about. Don't be stumped by ''suspicion' as you said. Many of us have been duped by experts on this board. And it's not McCarthyism either it's more like, who re you? Can you give us a bit of who you are? That's all. Simple questions, easy answers. Like when and from whom did you get knowledge? And the answer isn't Maharaji. When you come and ask questions why is it so unbelievable to also be asked questions? I don't think Marianne is being unreasonable at all. What's the problem with answering a couple of questions that would not in any way compromise your identiy? Best, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Who are you, CPG? From: CPG To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 00:08:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: fire away baby. 9/28/80, San Francisco, CA Rich Neel. Rejected a month earlier in Santa Cruz where I lived by Rich Neil also. In the girls ashram in a townhouse , I forget the street, off of 7th ave I think, going over the hill. 3 others I think in the K session, one was named Matthew, forget the others. But why would someone who hasn't received knowledge even be hear? I can't imagine anything more boring if you hadn't received K. Like some tawdry two bit soap opera...only I care and so do all of you. here is more to get Pat and Chuck thinking: Chuck would recognize me and me him, I don't remember what Patrick looked like. i met them at Michael L's house, i think we had another friend in common, Jim F (RIP), and lets just say when I met them at Michaels house in '82 0r soI don't think any of us were living like ashram premies, especially me.

Subject: Now I'm really curious... From: Chuck S. To: CPG Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 14:37:12 (EDT) Email Address: cmsprague@bootbox.net Message: I lived in Michael's house for a while, with a third person as well, Mathew. I received Knowlede with Jim Furman, on christmas eve of 1981, at the boys ashram on up on Miraloma street. In our Knowledge session there was me, Jim, and a young Japanese tourist couple, who had come to San Francisco for their honeymoon, and had been disappointed by what America was like. They met one of the ashram brothers who could speak Japanese, and they ended up getting K before going back to Japan. If folks here seem paranoid of new people who are anonymous, it's not suprising. In the past, many times, new anonymouse people appear suddenly, as doubting premies, to get us to stop talking about things like the Leaders Article. They try to get us to talk about ourselves, then some of the quotes are taken out of context and reprinted on a CAC site. For example: Someone may mention that they had a parent with a drinking problem. Later on a CAC site appears, and the drinking problem is quoted, and used as evidence that this person comes from an alcoholic family, and has a substance abuse problem himself. It's a dirty little game. One person even posted here as 'Cerise', a teenage girl of a premie couple. 'She' had everyone believing her, till she got real ugly, and told Abi, one of Jagdeo's victims, to stop whinning, that she didn't care if Abi got raped by a herd of wild bull elephants. Turns out 'Cerise' was a 45 year old man from Austrailia. Like Cynthia explained, people just want to know what you are about, that you are sincere at least, not just distracting us or baiting us for information. As she explained, you don't have to give up your anonymity. If you could confide in someone via email, people here might trust you more. There are folks here who have been posting anonymously for years, while letting folks know by email who they are. So your name needn't be mentioned on the forum at all. I'm not trying to pressure you, I'm just letting you know that is an option for you.

Subject: Re: Who are you, CPG? From: Marianne To: CPG Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:40:04 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Hello again CPG. Thanks for this information. I appreciate it. It looks like you probably know most of the SF ex premie crew. If you are indeed in the Bay Area, perhaps some of us could get together and talk face to face. Marianne

Subject: Get Pat and Chuck thinking? From: PatC To: CPG Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 04:33:22 (EDT) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: Did I dream it, CPG, or did you make one post that had upper-case letters? I know, don't nag - your shift key's bust. Chuck and I talked about you walking home from work tonight - but there are two people who fit the bill and we can't be sure which one you are. If ever you feel you need to tell us who you are or just when you feel ready to let us know who you are, email us. So far I've been in two minds about you. I don't think you are a game-player like Mr Nonymouse/Unix who tours all four forums making snide remarks. There are about a dozen of these trolls (that's chatroom slang for unpleasant and intrusive assholes) who creep around taking digs. For instance on the premie forum, Life is Great, the anonymous trolls constantly make homophobic remarks about me and say even worse things about poor old Jim. ;) Anyway, the trolls have caused a great deal of antipathy here and suspicion. I think creating suspicion and disrupting discussion is their role. This is a tactic that has been developed and is used by Scientologists. At first I could not believe that premies would actually do what they have done on this forum. As low as anything CAC did. I was convinced that some evil ex-premie (or at least one with an evil sense of humor) had invented these anonymous premie trolls to make the premies look bad - you know like Pauline Premie who is a real gopi and lives in her car and had to sell her kidney to get to Amaroo last year and well - I'll let her tell her own story. b) You said: ''Here is more to get Pat and Chuck thinking: Chuck would recognize me and me him, I don't remember what Patrick looked like. i met them at Michael L's house, i think we had another friend in common, Jim F (RIP), and lets just say when I met them at Michaels house in '82 0r soI don't think any of us were living like ashram premies, especially me.'' Yes, this is what narrows it down to two people and I won't say more as that's your prerogative. You don't remember me because that was 20 years ago and I was blindingly beautiful and I'm not joking. Michael L now lives in Arcata but we have stopped communicating since I left the church of His Holeyness Saint Rawat whose purity should never be doubted and who should never be criticised. Jim F (RIP) was my (god I hate this word) boyfriend at the time I met Chuck. (Jim and I were travelling in Europe when I realized that I'd left my heart in SF with Chuck and I flew back immediately.) I met Chuck through Michael L whom I first met the year before when came to brunch in my garden in the Haight with Matthew that time M came to SF at the new Davies Symphony hall. It coincided with my birthday (the year before the volcanic explosion of Mount St Helens had happened on my birthday) and I felt that Matthew had given Michael to me for a birthday present. (It was all lila and grace you know.) Michael got K and we had a whirlwind romance that lasted until the next July when we drove to Miami to see M. Michael and I finally parted in Lafayette Park in New Orleans on the way there. Then Michael found Chuck and told me to give Chuck satsang because that's what I did in those days as Chuck was curious. Chuck got K a few months later. Enough gossip! You probably also know Francesca, Joy and Joe who post here on occassion. Joe was CC in SF and Fran and Joy lived in that ashram where you got K. Was it Clarendon Circle off Laguna Honda Boulevard which is what 7th Avenue becomes west of Twin Peaks? No, I don't think you're a game-player. I've smelled whiffs of sincerity in your posts. Mind you there is a fairly thick layer of fuzziness overlaying it. Or is the fuzziness just laziness and cowardice? Nah, I don't think you're lazy or scared just testing the waters cautiously. At least I hope you aren't playing games. One of the big criticisms that the cult apologists have made of exes is that we are moralists and still have christian ethics. That's why exes don't understand Rev Rawat and why we get our tits in a tangle when anonymous cult trolls muddy our pristine streams of thought on this illustrious forum. Have fun here. I hope you get to meet Pauline Premie. :C)

Subject: Re: Get Pat and Chuck thinking? From: CPG To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 11:41:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My shift key comes and goes; if i go to Key Caps and flail around it'll usually come back for awhile. Still gotta take it in; its been this way for months. Getting sidetracked on who I am but wanted to give you guys something. No I don't think I know most of the people you mentioned, or Marianne or anyone else on here, although maybe I would recognize them. I see Michael L at events every now and then. Thats too bad you guys don't speak just because you don't agree; maybe its him for all I know. Jim seemed to pull away from M in the mid 80's and I don't think ever fully came back, if at all. We never talked about it that much. I loved him dearly as a friend and miss him, even though the stuff he was into that worked for him I thought was pure crap and a fraud. What is the name of your restaurant? Just curious; maybe you don't want to post it here which I can understand. I don't know who Harry is; I had a wild guess but he is on the east coast. I haven't had the amusement of meeting Pauline Premie yet, but I hope she is fake cuz thats pathetic. I know some people like her and I feel sorry for them. I want to shake them and say get a life, wake up. I don't say this much here cuz my flame retardant is getting a work out, but I don't consider my relationship with M as being in a cult. I agree it looks like it was at least much closer in the 70's (wasn't there). BUT, I know plenty of premies who DO seem like they are in a cult. Contradictory? No. Its the way they view knowledge and M that I don't share and that repulses me. I wouldn't have lasted in the ashram a day. I used to get lots of disapproving looks from the ashram premies. It amused me later when I heard the stories that it wasn't all celebacy in there.

Subject: Come to dinner - my treat From: PatC To: CPG Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 13:21:55 (EDT) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: Bring the missus and we're kid friendly too. I don't like to mention the restaurant here because it was targeted after CAC. Ask Bill Crolius or Rick Penn for the info if you don't want to email me for it. Or ask Danielle. She's been several times. I know you don't think of yourself as being in a cult (neither did I) but, in my book, simply having a Massa means that someone is having an affect on your life and that you cannot think independently. It's not so much an external cult as an internal one. The simple fact of putting another human being above you means that you are compromising your independence of thought. But really it is more of a religion nowadays than a cult. The reason why I call it a cult is because it is a personality cult but the external trappings smell more like a church - complete with church-ladies of both genders. Well, it's registered with the IRS as a church eventhough Rev Rawat keeps saying it's not a religion. BTW Have you attended one of those KITS thingies? What do you think of having to be trained to speak about happiness from your heart? That was what made Michael L and I fall out. He wanted me to go to one of those. I told him that it sounded like Scientology ''trainings'' and that it was a cult. He didn't like that.

Subject: CPG, have your read this? From: Jim S. To: CPG Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 01:03:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Have you read the posts by John McGregor from Australia on the home page of the epo site? If you have not, please do so, if you are really seeking more info and answers. I would suggest that you contact John if you have more questions-it seems that he writes from a lot of first hand experience. All the best, JS

Subject: Can you all chill a bit please? From: Pat W To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 16:21:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: why are you anonymous? Where and when did you receive knowledge? Who initiated you? What communities did and do you live in? Excuse me but CPG sounds to me like he just wants some answers and is naturally struggling to believe what he reads. I actually don't see any reason to ask this fellow for all these 'credentials'. What is this.. the Spanish Inquisition?! I'm really sorry if I've missed something but from what I have read so far, it sounds like CPG is as sincere as anyone. Anyway so what if he isn't? It's no big deal is it?? Maybe it's just me but, as one who has been around this forum for ages, I'm still absolutely none the wiser as to why people have to be so hugely mistrusting of one another. There's enough paranoia in the world already without getting embroiled in it here. (Sigh)

Subject: Re: Can you all chill a bit please? From: AV To: Pat W Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 17:25:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'I'm still absolutely none the wiser as to why people have to be so hugely mistrusting of one another. ' Patrick, Maybe peoples Trust accounts are a little overspent around here, are you suprised? Once bitten twice shy,as they say: over-reaction and paranoia probably equate to fairly normal, given what has gone before! Hope this finds you well AV

Subject: Re: Can you all chill a bit please? From: Marianne To: Pat W Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 16:27:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hullo Pat. Yes, I can chill a bit and tried to at the end of the post. I have a different reaction to his posts and felt free to say so. He's free to ignore me if he so desires. Marianne

Subject: Re: Who are you, CPG? From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 15:42:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He reminds me somewhat of Shroomanada, a premie from San Diego, I believe, whose real name was Mike Fronke or something. He pretended that he was an open minded guy 'who enjoys knowledge and loves to hear M speak.' He got his history of Late Antiquity from such famous historians as Hugh Lyn Cayce and used other worthwhile sources in his attempts at debate. Of course, I could be way off base here, but he does remind me of that moron. They always come back for more.

Subject: Re: Who are you, CPG? From: bill To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 23:35:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mick the P, Where or when did the story of the fallen angels make it into the christian view? Your take on the comment 'the devil knows not for whom he works' please.

Subject: Bill, e-mail me From: Mickey the Pharisee To: bill Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 00:53:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bill, Why don't you e-mail me at mgdbach@hotmail.com and we'll discuss your questions; they seem just a bit off topic here.

Subject: Re: Bill, e-mail me From: bill To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 16:58:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mick, I just about never go to my email, Hate to be pushy, but I dont care about the thread subject, and here you are, and if you are worried about someone chiming into a conversation between you and me here, dont worry, I will stop any assaultive type posts to you. The questions are by no means off topic, lead to a bigger analysis, and might be of interest to others anyway. Have you been pounded on here talking about your interests? Probably, but that doesnt matter, it was past, let it go and just please discuss the 2 subjects and more with me. There is room on this forum.

Subject: Hi Bill... From: Cynthia To: bill Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 23:47:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How the heck are ya? Love, Cynthia (in her right mind again):):)

Subject: Re: Hi Cynthia From: bill To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 16:51:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia, You know, we all have relatives and freinds that we see not on a daily basis. There is nothing wrong with using your rights to some privacy to ask the inner freinds to make themselves available only on sundays. I know separate parts can represent parts of us, and as challenging as the task is, be intergrated back into a common union. The work may take years, or decades, but there is nothing to stop you from instilling some disipline into them. They may try to help, but let them know that they are to follow some schedule. Maybe during the weekday of Wednesday or so. Leaving you free for the weekend for just your family and yourself. If they wait for just a certain day, they may have something of value to say. There is no way they can be of use daily. No one can. Moderation is best. Also, insist that they make thier points in a cheerful way. Like others in your life, insist they maintain some respect for your need for love and respect. We all need that and certainly those around us cant deliver that consistantly, others have to trouble us because that is the way it is for everyone in life. However, you can demand that from inner folks. They are not bound by the human nature like you and I are. So, if you define the rules, inner folks have to obey. They may have thier part to play, but they are not to take over your life. They will cooperate. Maybe their vote to kick you off the forum was not such a bad idea, Depending on what you read here, it can tip us into negativity if we dont watch it. Best to stroll on the sunny side of the forum if possible !

Subject: That is it exactly... From: Cynthia To: bill Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 09:55:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bill, That's actually quite close to how one manages parts inside. Once I got the picture of who everyone was (which took years) management of cooperation is the job with me as the boss. None of the parts are supposed to come out in any circumstance other than in communication with me. It's very weird and bizarre. The reason I've been able to bounce back is that I've spent years working on cooperation inside and it doesn't take very long to get everything in order. Gee Bill, you'd make a great therapist for MPDs. I mean it. One thing about it that's difficult (especially early on in the 'process') is that all parts have to be honored regardless of what they have to say or reveal. Reframing thoughts, working through particular memories is very hard but I'm pretty much finished with all that work. In my case, many of my 18 parts are fragments and don't take over. None of the parts can be 'cast out.' Integrated, yes, but not rejected. The only exception to this is something called a 'negative introject,' which is not a part or alter, but more like a tape loop which, again in my case, was continuous verbal abuse similar to the perpetrator's. Right now I am feeling happy and whole again. Thanks for caring... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: That is it exactly... From: bill To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 13:48:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia, I read up on this some time ago as I saw it was part of your life. Heavy abuse is a prime contributer. I was hoping my post was not destructive in any way, I am relieved that is wasnt. What the heck, you know, I might suggest a new part to emerge, one who focuses on hmmm, what can I do that would be special to this person in my life, what can I do that would make the day of THAT person in my life, what little thing could I do that would really enrich THIS persons life, small, just a touch, but would work. That is my secret endeavor these days, but you know, it takes some effort to spend the moments to focus on this person or that and come up with something. If you can get a part or parts of yourself involved in those kind of actions, and ideas, they as well may start to really like playing that role also. Might make for some real resolutions also !

Subject: About Chilling out... From: Cynthia To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 22:39:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think of all people here Marianne doesn't need to be told to ''chill out.'' Marianne is the most respectful and restrained of all who post on this forum. Always has been that's why I respect her and her instincts so much. Let it ride. It's all right. She may be onto something here. Maybe not, but time will prove it out. I trust Marianne's ability to read people even on this limited cyber-venue.:) Cynthia

Subject: My take on the Pie in the face From: NFM To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:51:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My take on a most regrettable incident concerning a Mr. Pat Halley of Detroit and a Mr. Pal Rawat of Malibu. My Guru, when he was a young child, use to watch movies by the 3 Stooges. One day he saw a movie where they threw pies in each others face's. He found that quite funny so he then ordered pies to be sent to the Ashram. He then pleasured himself by throwing pies in the face of his premies and his Mahatmas. One of those Mahatmas could well have been Fakiranand though this, as is much of this, strictly conjecture. The sad part of this is that this spoilt child did not know that he was incurring karma, the thing that he laughs at, as do many, and that keeps much of the world going. Time would pass and karma would gradually unfold. The Guru would go to Detroit and a Saint called Halley would struggle to resolve a Karmic problem that my Guru had, of which their may be many. This Saint Halley only noted the ease with which it all happened and how everything worked out perfectly to achieve, what he thought, where his ends. He would throw a pie of shaving cream in the face of my Guru who would tell his premies that it did not taste good, thus clearly showing evil intent on the part of Saint Halley, as oppose to Karmic resolution. It would all have ended quite well if the story had stopped here and my Guru had accepted the will of God, however like most of us my Guru refused to accept the will of God. Instead of accepting the will of God he conjectured about 'Knowledge' which he knows a great deal about. Unfortunately his conjecture was wrong, as was the conjecture of many premies, and filled with ego and pride a thing that is death to a Guru and premies. In this he made a big mistake as he well may have made in other things, though who among us can cast the first stone. Now the tragedy unfolds. Filled with anger and a sense of righteousness, for he was convinced that an attempt had been made to poison him, he ordered the Saint Fakiranand to damage the person who did this dastardly deed. I note damage instead of kill because this Guru is capable of the quality of Mercy (I truly believe this) if not compassion. Saint Fakiranand had been busy doing a most beautiful thing and had garnered much trust because of this from persons who he did not know well. He was quite capable of controlling a person by his personal persona and 'Knowledge', which he had given to many. Using 'Knowledge' the Saint Fkiranand disarmed the Saint Halley. Using what he had used many times before, that is 'The Natural Curiosity about Knowledge' and this most beautiful experience, he was able to get to Halley's room. Saint Halley's motives for allowing Saint Fakiranand into his room makes no difference for in Saint Fakiranand mind he will justify the denouncing of his Guru to Saint Halley by his delusions about Saint Halley's duplicity when ,in fact, he is probably only looking at his own duplicity. Using the very darkness required to give 'Knowledge' and using the vary form or position of an initiate he was able to further disarm Saint Halley. The last demonic twist in this drama. Using the very instrument to aid in the practice of knowledge, an instrument to help one to greater peace, to lead one to greater joy and bliss, using this beloved instrument of the good if not the Godly, as a weapon he crushed Saint Halley's skull. Thanks only to the Compassion of Medical Doctors, Saint Halley lived. The Irony of this all is, as I am sure many know, that Saint Fakiranand doing this to please his Guru will undoubtedly be spurned by his Guru for both legal and other reasons, much as a women who has been undone by a Man is spurned by that very same man, who after undoing her finds her less then enjoyable. Ah!! isn't love grand. It gets worst, undoubtedly the use of a bragen as a weapon will deprive Saint Fakiranand of the use of a bragen ever again and the use of 'Knowledge' may well deprive him of ever receiving 'Knowledge' again. The loss of Saint Fakiranand life from some skull injury, which I believe karma will require, will be small punishment compared to the previous observation, if it be true. His only hope is that Saint Halley does not forgive him, as a Christen Saint might. We can all hope for a Merciful Guru if not a God. The only reason I write this is it seems that St Peter was involved in this in some way, which I don't understand.

Subject: Re: My take on the Pie in the face From: janet To: NFM Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 05:17:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i agree. and saint halley does forgive the whole thing. his vision is indeed the greater. st peter simply told saint halley it was not his time yet and he came back. i f your take holds true, will prem die by a car accident, and get bounced several yards thru the air into a ditch? will he get snowed by a con greater than himself and lose everything to that other? will he get seduced by a female he worships and then be dropped and forgotten by her? maybe all the karme ha can't discharge in this life will be stacked up and saved for him and he will get to live it all in his future lives. or he will get to live it all as he dies and faces his life review. if the reports i spent the 90's studying hold true, as he dies, he will have to experience every last thing he made others experience as a result of his acts in this life, both the good and the bad. that means he gets to feel from the vantage point of the experiencers the lives of all the suicides as well as all the samadhi's. and then face a tribunal in the afterlife and sit in the dock while anyone who wants to be there gets to testify about him and his fate, based on what he did to them and anyone else they know of. I plan to be there with bells on. how bout you?

Subject: It was a hammer not a beragon From: Sir David To: NFM Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 13:57:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and the intent was to kill. Pat Halley was left for dead. Miraculously he survived.

Subject: No it was a Crowbar I guess? From: NFM To: Sir David Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 19:25:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Even back then, everyone knew From: Carl To: NFM Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 00:58:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: it was a ball peen hammer. Well, that was the shocking and whispered detail. I daresay many found it funny or deserved, such was our allegience to the Lord.

Subject: Halley does not agree From: NFM To: Carl Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 13:03:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You people clearly have not read what you should have. http://www.ex-premie.org/best/bof12042000173904.htm

Subject: Fakiranand tried to murder Halley ... From: cq To: NFM Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 13:17:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... and whether your comments are meant to be ironic or *what* (I really can't tell) there's only one word for your post: sick. I sincerely hope you find the help you need.

Subject: Re: Fakiranand tried to murder Halley ... From: NFM To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 13:06:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your comment reminds me of a movie I once say about Viet Nam a war I was in. Talking about sick on this site is like giving away speeding tickets at the Indi 500.

Subject: So who's the charming new visitor? From: gerry To: NFM Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 14:15:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Care to introduce yourself, NFM or do you just want to write weirdo posts and snipe at people?

Subject: Good by You Win From: NFM To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 19:25:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry for the post. I am only here to see the pictures of Maharaji morphed as a women. It is so funny and so indicative of intelligence and your subtle understanding of women. Your love keeps shinning through. If you wish to do me a favor you will bar me from this board and I will consider it an honor, so we will both be happy. If you do not wish to do me a favor I will try to show more discipline and, knowing the glories of renunciation, not have anything more to do with this board. I assure you I chastise myself for going here as much as you may wish to chastise me. Don't fool yourself, the only reason you posted was to provide some sort of punishment that you feel is necessary to continue the glories of your work, and I am sure their are other sites that would do the same. I do not regret any thing I have posted but that is a personal observation which I am sure you are not interested in. However, I am obliged (before I go) to thank you for three things. Halley's letter John Macgregor's posts Michael Dettmers posts Halley's letter I am very happy to have read. I think the other two are mostly true. The truth I try always to be grateful for, no matter what the source, for it is so rare, as you people constantly prove. If Judas himself provided me with the truth, I would hope that I could see it and be grateful for it. I hope you will not send my EMail address to anyone for I get enough spam. If you don't do this I will not try to use a proxy to post here and debase myself even further. Maharaji has done me much good and I am grateful. I will show that gratitude by never posting here again. NFM

Subject: The mind boggles From: Jim To: NFM Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 19:37:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hwo could you find Dettmers and MacGregor true, or even 'mostly' true as you say, and still have anything to do with Maharaji? Just amazing, the power of cult indoctrination, isn't it?

Subject: CHerritee From: AV To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:46:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: how does an org get charitble status? is it really that easy? seems a bit of a push-over, n'est pa?

Subject: M. DETTMERS- MORE INFO RE: CYCLIST From: CPG To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 00:30:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Michael We haven't met, i dont believe. I am a premie, read seeker of truth, not accepter of party lines of anyone. Please check threads below if you would like to know more about me. I came here because I am concerned about a couple allegations made here about Prem Rawat. As I have stated, while I enjoy knowledge I feel very strongly that I do not want to be associated with someone committing acts which I consider immoral. Since I consider M a human being as opposed to god-in-a-bod, and consider things people do in private their own business, my concerns rest on three very serious issues; the cylist, his knowledge of Jagdeo's crimes, and the CAC attacks. As you will see if you read my posts, I am a very practical and logical guy who doesn't jump to conclusions, nor do I stick my head in the sand (thats why i am here). The alleged cyclist incident is unique among the 14 issues presented on EPO, in that it is the allegation of one person only, you, which is not corroborated. As you will see if you read, i have been stressing the need for evidence and more people to come forward in the issues that concern me in order for me to find the truth here personally, and i am sure many who read here will agree (although most of the posters here seem to accept your version as is). Please understand; i don't distrust you, neither do I know you, and I don't blindly assimilate anyones version of something so important to me without more information. This is why I wholeheartily support Jim's call for a statement from Randy Prouty. Therefore I respectfully request the following information from you, in order to substantiate your version of events for me and others- - date and location of the cyclist accident - names of other members of the multi-car entourage - you stated an investigation ensued in which a houseboy took the rap. This means there must be a police report. Have you made attempts to get a copy of this most-likely public document; any suggestions how we can obtain one - death certificate of the cyclist - any newspaper article about the incident The witnesses must number in the manys; the documents are all public especially in the case of a death should be readily available -in most countries at least Any or all of this information would not only satisfy my questions, but I am sure you realize would thoroughly discredit M for this alleged act of moral weakness. Thanks for your help in this, I really appreciate any help you can provide.

Subject: Good Post CPG From: Here's lurking at you To: CPG Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 19:25:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: keep thinking for yourself. it's a big problem for the exies here to have someone challenge the posted word. tip? go to the other forums and see what they post look at what they say at anything goes and life is great . . . . . it may shock you, these people are not what they say they are

Subject: venom at other forums From: Livia To: Here's lurking at you Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 08:38:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Lurker, I've looked over there too and feathers fly for sure. And a lot of the sneering, vitriol, character assassination and sheer venom is coming straight from the keyboards of those oh so contented, peaceful and fulfilled premies. Funny, that. With regards, Livia

Subject: By the way, CPG, what about YOUR credibility? From: Jim To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:57:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I must say, it's also happened here that various premies have posted posing as 'waverers' just to flush out what we've 'got' so to speak. When are you going to connect with one of us, perhaps, in email so at least someone can relate to you as a real person? Trust isn't a one-way street, is it?

Subject: Re: By the way, CPG, what about YOUR credibility? From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 12:36:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree with Jim and Marianne. And I've about had it with CPG and definitely with 'Harry.' My guess is that these aren't new posters at all, but premie retreads on a fishing expedition. I think it's time for both to take someone into their confidence with their real names. Otherwise, I believe we are just getting jerked around again. Their sudden appearance to derail the 'Leaders' thread might be coincidence, but then again it's a page right out of the old cult troll playbook.

Subject: The CAC attack From: Marianne To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:08:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CPG, pardon me for being a bit cynical about you and your posts. I find your back and forth with 'Harry' -- who is anonymous and whom you seem to believe above those of us who post with our real names and locations --- to sound staged. Funny you both showed up at the same time to banter back and forth with each other. This discussion sounds like something cooked up by the folks at DLM/EV/now PRF. Having said that, I am taking your posts at face value. You said you were concerned about the CAC attack. Why were you concerned about it? That it was unseemly? Filled with lies? Designed to provoke attacks on people who are using the net criticize Captain Rawat? I was the only woman listed on the CAC sites. I am an attorney. I was in the cult for 4 years -- in the early '70's, when I was 16-20. I lived in the ashram and was a peon premie. For what possible reason could these people be going after me? Because I say the cult is like Peoples Temple and Rawat is like Jim Jones? The CAC people blackmailed Sir Dave by putting his daughter's photo on their site, and made him take his sites down in order to get it removed. Is that right? Unlike Rawat, none of us have made ourselves public figures -- something he has done once again by putting this profile in LEADERS. The CAC site said that I worked at the San Francisco Public Defender's office, and gave a link for people to write there and complain that I am a cyberstalker -- a crime under California law. In fact, I do not and never have worked at that office. A premie took it upon himself to write numerous emails to that office and make criminal allegations against me, even after being advised I did not work there. This is cause for a lawsuit under California and federal law. When the CAC site went up, Joe Whalen made a post and sent a letter to EV threatening to sue, because we believe that the site was encouraged by EV and Rawat. I also made a post threatening suit. A few days later, the site disappeared. Those are the facts about what the cult will do to try to protect Rawat. Nasty business. Marianne Bachers San Francisco, California

Subject: My response From: Michael Dettmers To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 06:57:42 (EDT) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: Dear CPG, You ask some very good questions. 1. Date and location of the cyclist accident: Although I clearly remember the incident itself, I do not remember the exact year and date it occurred. It took place sometime between 8:00AM and 10:00AM on a road somewhere between the ashram outside of New Delhi and the airport. Maharaji was flying the 707 at the time, so it must have occurred in 1982 or 1983 following a 3 or 4 day event, probably a Holi Festival in April or a Hans Jayanti Festival in November. 2. Names of other members of the multi-car entourage: Besides Maharaji, I only remember with certainty that that Randy Prouty and Sampurnanand were present. Please accept that this incident took place about 20 years ago. In the late 70’s and early 80’s, I traveled all over the world with Maharaji and that included countless multi-car convoys from place to place with entourages that varied. Consequently, I can’t be certain about all of the people who were present in that particular entourage. 3. Have you made attempts to get a copy of this most-likely public document; any suggestions how we can obtain one - death certificate of the cyclist - any newspaper article about the incident: I have made no attempt to secure these documents, but they must exist. Perhaps Maharaji’s organization in India has a record of the financial settlement they made with the cyclist’s family. Sorry I can’t be of more help. Nevertheless, I stand by my claim that this unfortunate incident did take place. Perhaps, in time, some other witnesses to the event, or those who became involved in its cover-up, will come forward. By the way, I hope I have made it abundantly clear that, although I have reported extensively on Maharaji’s excessive drinking, he was not drunk when this accident happened. It was the kind of unfortunate accident that could happen to anyone. Most people, however, do not have the financial resources nor a group of accomplices who are willing to lie in order to cover-up what was a hit and run incident following vehicular manslaughter. I reported this accident in the context of the Jagdeo situation to demonstrate that Maharaji is capable and willing to lie and cover-up any situation for which he is unwilling and/or afraid to take responsibility. Michael

Subject: perhaps kelly can ask deepak to look From: janet To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 05:33:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: karen ringrose in the UK, known as kelly here, has ties with deepak, the head of the delhi compound in india. i would bet he had to do some kind of business after that incident occurred, and probably could rmember or find out who handled the details after maharaji left india. he could identify which festival it was, maybe where the death had to be filed, that kind of thing. kelly, you up for this? finding these details out helps us too, as whatever we can nail down can go up on the site to add more weight to our present information.

Subject: Re: My response From: bill To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 23:33:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Micheal, I havent forgotten your posts about our potentials. I felt one night that I was ready to discuss it but I didnt have the time that night and the next day I realized that needed more time to stew about it. Thanks for your patience.

Subject: Thanks Michael From: CPG To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 16:33:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your prompt response, I do appreciate it. I must say I am very inimpressed on this particular issue. Although it sounds very possible to me. And I don't understand why Prouty wouldn't deny it. I will email him at his link below. For all my doubters attacking me anew- I am not making any statements such as Dettmers or Harry, so I don't see how my credibility is an issue. I get attacked for respectfully asking questions of verification? hmm...anyway i don't mind revealing myself to certain people but i will not post my full name on an open forum like this..wouldn't on any. don't really care what anyone thinks about me, if you read my posts it should be apparent i am not trying to change anyones mind, just trying to get info. Instead of responses by most i get questions about others issues, many of which i have stated how i feel about. This tells me that while many here are sincere, many are not interested in the truth, only condemnation, with no variations from the ex- party line. Do you have to take all issues here at face value to be an ex? Sounds like the same lack of free thought you condemn premies for. Harry? i stated i don't believe anyone on here blindly INCLUDING harry. I asked harry to verify his assertions; no one else did. CAC- deplorable; I will be emailing a PAM friend of mine to find out what he knows; I'd like to find out who did that and expose them. Unlikely , yes. yacht- sounds like a helluva boat. Its not my money that bought it, thats for sure. A few of my ex-clients are worth way more than M and they happen to be cheap sleazy assholes who I wouldn't trade places with for anything. Money doesn't impress me. I know the issue is if it came from donations. More later; gotta work off site today. Tonette: you are still a sweetheart, i have been called much worse than silly on here. Thanks all for your input, thoughtful as well as paranoid and vicious.

Subject: I'm confused, CPG From: Jim To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 19:40:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your prompt response, I do appreciate it. I must say I am very inimpressed on this particular issue. Although it sounds very possible to me. And I don't understand why Prouty wouldn't deny it. I will email him at his link below. Try as I have, several times now, I can't make sense of your response. What are you saying? What do you mean you're 'inimpressed on this particular issue'? Do you mean unimpressed with Dettmers' allegation or with Maharaji's behaviour? Which? Likewise, what do you mean when you say you 'don't understand why Prouty wouldn't deny it'? Too many negatives in there or something. Could you explain yourself more clearly please? I'm glad you're emailing him. Please let us know if and how he answers. For all my doubters attacking me anew- I am not making any statements such as Dettmers or Harry, so I don't see how my credibility is an issue. I get attacked for respectfully asking questions of verification? hmm...anyway i don't mind revealing myself to certain people but i will not post my full name on an open forum like this..wouldn't on any. don't really care what anyone thinks about me, if you read my posts it should be apparent i am not trying to change anyones mind, just trying to get info. Instead of responses by most i get questions about others issues, many of which i have stated how i feel about. This tells me that while many here are sincere, many are not interested in the truth, only condemnation, with no variations from the ex- party line. Do you have to take all issues here at face value to be an ex? Sounds like the same lack of free thought you condemn premies for. Hold on there, cowboy! First, there is a way that even an ostensibly questioning premie can be nothing but an agent provocateur. Some goofball calling himself****, for example, tried posting a little while ago asking us for all the credible evidence we had of illegal acts perpetrated by Maharaji. Clearly, you can see that that's the kind of thing a premie in the service of the Lord Himself might ask as well, for various reasons. Anyway,**** wasn't trustworthy and got the bum's rush. We've been doing this for a few years now and, yes, I guess we start to develop a certain sense of 'Predar'. Yes, we get it wrong and don't all agree but we've been attacked, tricked, you name it. What else would you expect? Some new people engender eruptions of wariness, some don't. You've gotten a mixed reception so far. Whatever, eh? This should all sort itself out in time if you're legit, we're legit and everyone's being honest with each other. But as for 'party-line', consider what I told Harry earlier. The whole world outside of the very carefully protected walls of your cult thinks, without doubt, that Maharaji is a joke. Is that a 'party line'? Or is that just an unavoidable conclusion in the face of oeverwhelming evidence and common sense. See, most people don't give Maharaji any credit for anything more than being the heir to a guruship, like some people inherit car dealerships, who came to America, got laid, got rich and made a complete fool of himself. 'Party-line'? Yeah, the same way we all believe there's no Santa Claus, I guess. Harry? i stated i don't believe anyone on here blindly INCLUDING harry. I asked harry to verify his assertions; no one else did. Good for you. Do you expect a reply, by the way? CAC- deplorable; I will be emailing a PAM friend of mine to find out what he knows; I'd like to find out who did that and expose them. Will you share that info with us if and when you get it? How will you feel if and when you don't? Unlikely , yes. yacht- sounds like a helluva boat. Its not my money that bought it, thats for sure. A few of my ex-clients are worth way more than M and they happen to be cheap sleazy assholes who I wouldn't trade places with for anything. Money doesn't impress me. I know the issue is if it came from donations. That's a BIG distinction, CPG. A BIG distinction. More later; gotta work off site today. Tonette: you are still a sweetheart, i have been called much worse than silly on here. Thanks all for your input, thoughtful as well as paranoid and vicious. Sure.

Subject: my take on the cyclist, skip if you don't care From: CPG To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 23:58:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Let me clarify my last comments for Jim and others. I am very unimpressed with the credibility of this PARTICULAR issue. I don't know Dettmers from Jack, but to not be able to name the date, place, any others out a motorcade, of what, dozens? He wants to discredit M but no readily available documentation? What about the victim? no one tended to him in the midst of the 'chinese fire drill'? who was he/she? what did he/she look like? No one else out the motorcade has come forward in 20 yrs? I witnessed a death also, about the same time; early '82. It was just as sudden, yet I could tell you the time, date, location, who was there, I could sketch those i don't know, what I was wearing, what she was wearing, I could draw a detailed floor plan of the room I had never been in before that day or since. It is imprinted on my brain as a photograph or video like the birth of my kids; I know I won't forget it until the day I die or my mind goes. And my family always kids me about my bad memory. I also don't see why Prouty wouldn't issue a statement. But there are many possible reasons other than the the total accuracy of this account. ' Maharaji used to be a woman and fathered a child by Chuck' by CPG..has exactly the same credibility to someone who doesn't know any of you...like me. Please post that on EPO. I am not saying it didn't happen...it might have. Or it could be total fabrication, or exaggeration, partially true, or confusion, or memory impairment, or true...I don't know. What has me aghast is...neither do any of you. Yet you repeat it and state it as fact. It is an allegation of one man unconfirmed and should be identifed clearly as such if credibility is at all important to you. Yet it is listed in your 14 facts. What has touched me is I have met some very real and caring and good hearted people here...Pat and Tonette to name but two...most seem to have their own reason for detesting M...those two I can't argue with, for them; they just aren't important to me. My questions don't seem to be important to them. But what amazed me most is no one reacted to this incredulous lack of information on this PARTICULAR issue. In fact..how long have you all been here, years? No one has attempted to contact Prouty in this time? Doesn't anyone want to make sure this is the truth/? i have been here only days and someone posted his email address. What I am saying is: wouldn't you all agree that we want to be unfettered, uninfluenced free thinkers? You can agree to all other of the 14 points, plus have your own reasons for disliking M that no one could argue with, but i haven't heard anyone diverge one iota from the 14 point party line. In fact i have been critised and roundedly accused of espionage for not caring about most but demanding evidence like apparently no one else has on the others. I know you arent all apolgists or party line thinkers...come on...no one has wondered about this PARTICULAR issue? I will again summarize my other concerns outstanding to save the others for flaming me as a total apologist; - Jagdeo..this is the most important...the acts I believe...two accounts and they ring true. The man was in service to M for a long period of time while these acts occured. Several have reported guards on J. People but not M reportedly told directly. No one has come forward to confirm they knew that I have heard. Would love to see some evidence from either side; guards, Prouty, 40 teachers interviewed. I don't know yet. -CAC deplorable acts and I d love to help expose whoever was responsible. This kind of crap is inexcusable. Harry has said Ex's attacked premies too. Is this true? Still doens't condone EV attacks, and i want to look into who did this on the EV side. The other stuff frankly isn't as important to me as I have explained earlier, although I can completely understand it being reason alone for others. Remember, I came in in 1980, after the heavy indian stuff, but also 2 years after Jonestown, so i knew damn well I wouldn't drink the Koolaid and was always on the lookout for it. Cheers to all

Subject: Re: my take on the cyclist, skip if you don't care From: Livia To: CPG Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 10:49:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi CPG, You say that if Dettmers had really witnessed this death in India he would most certainly remember the date, occasion etc. I'm not sure this is entirely true. Think about it. If it isn't true, Dettmers must be making it up; after all, he says he was there when it happened. To me it seems an odd tale to make up. I was in India in 1972. A whole lot of us piled into buses and travelled from Delhi to Maharaji's ashram in Hardwar. A number of incidents happened on that journey - I remember people talking about them when we arrived. Apparently one bus knocked down and killed a horse; another bus ran over and killed a man. Yet another bus was suddenly boarded by a group of soldiers wielding guns. The point is that the traffic is crazy and chaotic in India, or certainly was then. A lot of pedestrians are killed, a lot of crashes occur. If you, like Dettmers, had been there repeatedly, and an incident like this took place, you would certainly remember that it happened, but it is certainly not inconceivable that you would forget the exact occasion. I think this is true even if Maharaji was involved in the incident, and the incident had had a deep effect on you at the time. Dettmers certainly seems to recall the details vivdly - who changed car with whom, and what happened re compensating the man's relatives. The only thing he seems to have forgotten is the exact year it happened. You seem to take this as suggesting that he has invented the whole thing. An extremely close friend of mine died unexpectedly one day after I had spent the weekend with her. I was traumatised at the time, but if you were to ask me the date or year, I wouldn't be able to tell you. 1979? 1980? 1981? Couldn't say. It was more than 20 years ago, and all I can tell you is that it was one of those years. The event itself, however, is vividly imprinted in my brain as if it was yesterday, and I still shed tears over it sometimes, even today. With regards, Livia

Subject: Re: my take on the cyclist, skip if you don't care From: PatC To: CPG Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 05:22:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CPG, I'll let Michael Dettmers explain for himself why his memory is vague but I know him (he had dinner in my restaurant not so long ago when he was in SF - BTW, why haven't you been to dinner chez moi?) and I like, trust and respect him. Like Jim, his written words here do not convey his warmth and menschness, his uBuntu. I know that many things happened to me inside of the milieu of Maharaji that I only have strange surrealistic memories of. I was high as a kite anytime I was in that milieu and also confused. I know Chuck never went through this coz he got K round about the same time as you but the fact is that the vibe was so hyper and exciting at times that only certain details spring to memory. It was often chaotic at the hub especially if you were trying to ''do service'' with a bunch of other guys who were just as high and spaced out as you. For many of us old-timers the first decade was a lot like an acid trip. The funny thing is that of all the ''14 objections'' this one most upset me. As I said to you, I left the Church of Saint Rawat the Flying None of this and none of that but I can smoke dope and fuck and eat meat while you poor suckers masturbate in ashrams and eat lentils three times a day. I didn't really care about all that because I always broke the rules myself anyway. But doesn't it bother you just the teensiest bit that Dettmers and Donner have corroborated each others' accounts of Rev Rawat's use and abuse of premie chicks - well only blond ones of course? See, the sex doesn't bother me. Who am I to judge? I love it but the abuse of the master/student relationship does bother me. Do you think that those poor chicks (starry eyed Pauline Premies who had to sell plasma to get to Miami) had much say in the matter or were they only too pleased to blow Balyouguesswhat? My guess is that they would have not ''played rude'' ( as they say in South Africa) with Rawat's cock if they didn't think that he was the Lord of the Universe. You said: ''Pat and Tonette to name but two...most seem to have their own reason for detesting M...'' I don't detest His Holeyness. I just don't like, trust or respect him. You asked: ''Harry has said Ex's attacked premies too. Is this true?'' Listen, bud, I know where you live and, if yu're playing games with me, I'll follow you home and break both your knee caps and set your house on fire. Oh, jesus joy of man's desire, I better mention that that's a joke or else Mr Nonymouse/Unix will report me to Mr Glen ''Whitewash'' Whittaker. (He's the guy who wrote the lies on M's first website.) Seriously, no! Duh! Just ask Harry what he's talking about. He's talking crap. BTW, do you know ''Harry?'' He's also another California Premie Guy. Yes, I am an FA here and can see who's posting and from where by tracing IP numbers.

Subject: Flailing= thinking? From: CPG To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 13:26:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think if you read back and trace the path i took to get to those comments you could hardly describe it as flailing. I hope and encourage Mr. Dettmers to respond. I asked him specific questions and he had answers to none; by not knowing the date and place of this alleged incident or other witnesses it is impossible to verify. I have no specific questions to go back to him with or I would. I careful listed all the possibilities above as they logically are; those can't be argued with but I am sure some will. I address problems with logic; emotionally based thinkers tend to get really upset with me; we are all different. I agree my experience could be different from anyone elses re; death and memory. My main point , and NO ONE has commented on this, is that you all accept his allegation as fact, at face value, and no one has apparently attempted to verify his version in these few years. Thats what bothers me. Somehow I thought this was a forum where freedom of thought and expression was encouraged, but i keep pushing up against this accept-all-or-you-are-scum-get-the-hell-out party line logic. Pat you and others have been very tolerant. But come on people, wouldn't it strike you all as strange to meet a sizable group of people and find all agree 100% to the exact same issues, 14 plus cac and others, and NO ONE will diverge? Not even a 'well yeah i was never that sure about that one' . This is getting spooky. How did you spell out thhe Twilight Zone theme again? I have absolutely no idea what, if anything happened. If i had to guess i would guess that at LEAST part of it is true, which would be one explaination why there has been no response. Even if he stayed on the scene and took full responsibility he wouldn't like the incident coming out. I think all of us, anyone who is or has been associated with M, and the rest of people for that matter, have to decide if they are going to be independant thinkers or stick our heads in the sand, not looking at all the possibilities and deciding for ourselves. My wife won't even read this stuff; many of you get extremely upset and attack me if i raise another possibility or question the accepting culture in here. I have found it extremely liberating to give all these issues a fair reading, explore, and think about issues i haven't thought about in 20 years. And i thank all who have been talking with me for helping that process in me. I haven't talked this much about some of the questions here, or my exp with knowledge for that matter, in a long long time.

Subject: Re: Flailing= thinking? From: Cynthia To: CPG Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 14:27:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi CPG, I believe that Michael Dettmers has told the truth about the cyclist incident in India. Have you ever worked very closely with Maharaji? I did when I was at DECA. Many things happened at DECA that were illegal and I can tell you information about these illegal acts, but I couldn't give you a precise date. The reason I ask about this is because when a premie is working closely around Maharaji, every day, day after day, his agya (orders) are excessive and one does it 'right away.' People lose sleep in order to fulfill his requests (which he tended in my experience to pile on and on). He also would get angry if his requests were not done to his specific idea of perfection (which isn't possible) but that's another story. For instance, while I was at DECA during the spring of 1979 a premie was smuggling B707 specifications out of Boeing in Seattle. Everyone involved in receiving those photocopied documents knew it was illegal but it was being done as a request of Maharaji and the project directors. I was one person in particular who received these boxes which were shipped on commercial aircraft straight from Seattle to the Miami airport and rushed to the tiny Hialeah, FL facility. Boxes and boxes filled with proprietory specs which by illegally obtaining them saved the ''project'' a lot of money by not purchasing them directly from Boeing. These documents were received by me and a few others. I can see myself opening the boxes. I can see myself photocopying the specs and preparing them for the folks at the hangar who needed them, as well as for Maharaji himself. I remember having a fleeting thought go through my mind to the effect 'this is illegal--oh so what-- this is for Maharaji (who I worshipped as Lord of the Universe--truly). For the life of me I could not give you dates. All I know is that is was probably sometime between May and July of 1979. I was no honcho, believe me. I was a worker bee (for free I might add)--no salary for the ashram premies. And the only reason I can give you those dates is because I was only down there for a year, and know approximately when the document smuggling was going on. I never was a bona fide PAM as was Michael Dettmers. He's reported that he worked around the clock 18-20 hour days fulfilling Maharaji's demands--for years. When one is sleep deprived dates can get blurred. Especially I believe in Michael's case because he was very close to Maharaji for a long time and must have been in many situations similar to the entourage of cars, the same type of senario as when the cyclist incident occurred. Do you see what I mean? Believe me, when Michael Dettmers first posted here I was one of the most cynical about what he reported. I have since found him to be intelligent, level headed, and honest. Besides, why would he make something like that up? He would have nothing to gain by making it up. Understand CPG, that sleep deprivation does blur memories of dates. Add that to the intensity of being around Maharaji 24/7, I am not a bit surprised that he can't give you even a year. Given the many, many other things Michael has witnessed around Maharaji during the years he worked closely with Maharaji it doesn't surprise me a bit that he doesn't remember the date of the cyclist accident. I hopes this helps you to understand how difficult it is to be around Maharaji in the capacity of taking his direct orders (agya). It's stressful beyond comprehension. Best, Cynthia

Subject: Re: worker bee From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 15:05:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cyn, It reminded me of many things reading your post; particularly the service-burnout-under-direct-agya stuff. Whatever stance one my take on M, whether an ex, premie or waverer, there was definately something that carried one thru' those times. I recall a time when all my usual trappings were stripped away, and I was broom pushing for a couple of days, then this incredible experience came over me; saturated in light in what I guess you could call a state of 'divine rapture' (there go those quotes again). This is not sit down meditation,I was on the move; a similar experience happened to me on the subway (tube) about a year after K. The point is , in those times with those experiences occuring to many people, it was such a completely unreal frame of reference in comparison to normal everyday life, that a lot of goings-on that would seem truly bizarre today would never have been questioned. And I know as you do what that energy can be like around M; every one is pushing way beyond their personal envelope and all kinds of stuff goes down. I think that's the credibility gap faced by people like CPG (no disrespect) who post here; they are possibly unaware of what it is like to have your entire being 'stretched' beyond the norm, beyond the limit; to go beyond the resistance of the individual will, the limitations of conventional boundaries. In that 'expanded' state however, the conciousness as a 'substance' is extremely malleable,and exquisitely vulnerable to impression. Hence there are possibly a number of people who post here who have experienced that, that are having to come to terms with a great deal in the light of a more detatched and humanitarian viewpoint,and whose reactions, by default,will be in another universe to those moths who have never flown into the flame. A lot of courage goes un-noticed here, methinks. Warmly, AV

Subject: I agree with you, CPG From: PatC To: CPG Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 13:37:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''My main point , and NO ONE has commented on this, is that you all accept his allegation as fact, at face value, and no one has apparently attempted to verify his version in these few years. Thats what bothers me.'' That's why I don't keep repeating allegations that I know nothing about. However, as I said, I know and trust Dettmers and believe whatever he has told me to be true. However, as I have also said before, none of these allegations are all that important to me. I left Rawat because of his lies. For instance: before you got K, Rawat used to say that, if premies left K, they would rot like a truckload of veggies and go to hell. A few years ago I heard him say with his own lips: ""I never said that if you leave Knowledge that you will go to hell. Others may have said it but not me.'' He also has lied about not saying that he was greater than god, Krishna, Buddha and Jesus all rolled into one with a cherry on top. He blames the mahatmas for arti and darshan. Remember how they had to tie him to the throne to force him to let us kiss his feet? :C) That truckload of rotting veggies has haunted many a premie who has drifted away and caused some to kill themselves. My biggest indictment against Rawat is that he said things in the past that damaged and destroyed people. He needs to apologise for that.

Subject: Hasty, unreasonable, arguably flailing From: Jim To: CPG Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 00:55:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Let me clarify my last comments for Jim and others. I am very unimpressed with the credibility of this PARTICULAR issue. I don't know Dettmers from Jack, but to not be able to name the date, place, any others out a motorcade, of what, dozens? Perhaps if you did know Dettmers, not only would you have some personal sense of his basic credit-worthiness, but you'd also appreciate the unique role he played in the cult during those years. He was Maharaji's number one man, no question. This is significant in this situation for several reasons. It explains, first, what he was doing in that motorcade in the first place. Obviously. In context, it also explains why this fast shot out to the Delhi airport was perhaps one of several he travelled with Maharaji just like it. The date confusion makes sense too. Mike, a fairly tight-lipped person to begin with, or at least occupationally so due to the nature of his service then, like the others involved, kept this to themselves, I'd imagine. He wasn't interviewed about it for Elan Vital, let alone the Delhi Times. It was a confusing, fleeting and ugly accident that it sounds like the whole party left from immediately with only some sticking behind to deal with the cyclist and the cops. Mind you, I don't want to put words in Mike's mouth. Maybe he remembers something more of those kinds of details. Ask him. He wants to discredit M but no readily available documentation? God, you sound like a Holocaust denier. First person testimony ain't worth shit, where's the documentation? Can you hear that in yourself? What about the victim? no one tended to him in the midst of the 'chinese fire drill'? who was he/she? what did he/she look like? No one else out the motorcade has come forward in 20 yrs? Well, everyone was in this stupid cult you see .... What would you expect? Are you really that surprised that, even if some person wanted to speak out, say they left the cult at some point, that they might not think it was in their selfish interest to do so? Can't you concede that, at minimum, Dettmers is either extremely reckless with his own personal safety or possibly downright brave to finally tell this story? Where's that consideration in your supposedly fair analysis? Or do you think that intimidation has known no place at the feet of the master? I witnessed a death also, about the same time; early '82. It was just as sudden, yet I could tell you the time, date, location, who was there, I could sketch those i don't know, what I was wearing, what she was wearing, I could draw a detailed floor plan of the room I had never been in before that day or since. It is imprinted on my brain as a photograph or video like the birth of my kids; I know I won't forget it until the day I die or my mind goes. And my family always kids me about my bad memory. Entirely different circumstances, sounds to me. You were in a room. Dettmers wasn't even in the car that hit the cyclist (an accident that likely had minimal impact on that car anyway). Didn't you think of this before you passed judgment so hastily? Look at you, CPG. You start asking about this incident and Dettmers, who rarely posts here normally, must ahve been lurking, or maybe someone (not me) emailed him and --poof! -- he's there at your command. You claim to be unsatisfied by his answer, too many ends left hanging, but, instead of just asking him to continue the dialogue, allowing you an opportunity to maybe squeeze some more details out of him, you close the book and render judgement. Tell me it isn't obvious that you, California PREMIE Guy, weern't just praying that there wasn't enough here to force you to rethink things. Go on, ask Mike again, for God's sake! Either he's got more, some contextual stuff at least, or something like that, or he doesn't. Scared to really find out? Sorry, just asking. :) Another thing, by the way, different between your incident and his -- was your death a secret? His was. I also don't see why Prouty wouldn't issue a statement. Or Maharaji, for that matter, huh? Or is he above it all? Not exactly. Check out the -- oh, sorry, they took them down, didn't they? EV put up some FAQs that were specific answers to specific allegations against Maharaji that were clear lies. Maharaji's also specifically answered the Jagdeo allegations, to some extent at least. Why would it be beyond all expectation such that you can't even mention it, to wonder why Maharaji wouldn't deny such a heinous allegation from his former top assistant? And Prouty? Good question. Don't let it go. Dettmers is libelling him as well as Maharaji beyond question -- if he's lying. Dettmers has some money, apparently. He's not without pockets. Suing his defamatory ass might be just the ticket to kick this hornets nest of virulent anti-guruism were it belongs, don't you think? Tell me that that wouldn't be a whole lot mor eeffective than simply grinning and bleeding, which is exactly what Maharaji's been doing since we started airing his dirty laundry like this and asking the right questions. I gave you credit above for commenting that there's no perceivable advantage we'd have hiding embarrassing information about Maharaji. That was a good point. Well, I would expect you to likewise concede to me that there's no possible advantage that Maharaji would have in not taking the bull by the horns and really knocking the wind out of our sails but for good. Dettmers also alleges that Maharaji used to get him to pimp premie girls for him. That and more. More than enough excruciatingly defamatory material -- if it weren't true. Please, tell me how stonewalling is in any way advantageous to Maharaji becuase I, for one, can't see it. But there are many possible reasons other than the the total accuracy of this account. Start telling me what they are for all the reasons above, please. ' Maharaji used to be a woman and fathered a child by Chuck' by CPG..has exactly the same credibility to someone who doesn't know any of you...like me. Please post that on EPO. Now you're sounding stupid. Control yourself. I am not saying it didn't happen...it might have. Or it could be total fabrication, or exaggeration, partially true, or confusion, or memory impairment, or true...I don't know. What has me aghast is...neither do any of you. Yet you repeat it and state it as fact. It is an allegation of one man unconfirmed and should be identifed clearly as such if credibility is at all important to you. Yet it is listed in your 14 facts. First person acount by someone with everything to lose coming forward with not a word of denial from the accused. That's strong, especially if you factor in good character on the accuser's part and a consistent pattern of lies and stonewalling on the accused's. Anyway, CPG, do you want to know or not? If you do, I suggest that you keep talking with Dettmers. :)

Subject: Re: Hasty, unreasonable, arguably flailing- yep From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 05:33:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I especially liked this bit, Jim: ''....instead of just asking him (Dettmers) to continue the dialogue, allowing you an opportunity to maybe squeeze some more details out of him, you close the book and render judgement'' It those damn ''filters'' Erica Andersen described. You know, the filters that premies have to use to screen out the contradictions.

Subject: Yes but why do you care? From: Sir Dave To: CPG Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 00:55:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you want to follow Maharaji then nothing written about him here should make any difference to you. Very few people here (and certainly not I) have any interest in trying to pursuade people not to follow M and be premies. Whether M killed a cyclist has no bearing on the matter, neither does Maharaji's drinking or refusal to accept some responsibility in the Jagdeo paedophile crimes. None of this matters one iota because if you want to follow Maharaji and be a premie, you will be and if you don't want to - you won't. For this reason, your statements mean little to most ex-premies because most ex-premies don't want to be premies and follow the directions of Mr Rawat. They don't believe he speaks anything of any value or has any credibility. He's a nothing, a nobody. I can see the difference in people who post here. Some people are posting with the view that Maharaji is something, somebody of value and you fall into that catagory. If that's the way you feel then you should have no need to fish around trying to find obscure bits of information about the man. Surely you don't base your relationship with Maharaji on mere hearsay? So, for someone who obviously sees Maharaji as someone special, why are you fishing around looking for proof? What does it matter? Who cares? Either he's special or not. I think he's not. Not even worth thinking about. But you may continue to believe he is special for as long as you want. Nobody will or can stop you.

Subject: Good point, Dave.... From: Jim S. To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 12:21:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The basic conclusion I have come to is this: 1-If you have outgrown mr. rawat & co., and have seen and heard one too many wierd thngs that don't add up, EPO can help tremendously in extricating yourself from the cult. You can get information here that rawat would never let you know about, you can find out about the 'other side of rawat', and find help in deconstructing his mindfuck in gneral.... The truth WILL set you free....(just wondering, should that quote be somewhere on the epo homepage?) 2-If you have not outgrown mr. rawat's personality cult, you will stay, bcause you need to stay. People who need to stay may be a bt curious, but will never let most of this stuff really sink in too much, although I do suspect that many of them may be 1-2 years away from a possible exit. I perused epo for a few hours one day, and never returned for about a year. At that point (a year later), it really made sense. It takes awhile for this to sink in, and awhile for a long term premie to really come to grips with the fact that they have been deceived as much as they have... I think what got me the most was not the scandalous stuff, but reading rawats old satsangs, contrasted with his new image....it was enough to want to make me throw up...also, seeing how the premies found a way to rationalize it all was a huge red flag for me...

Subject: Good points, Dave and JimS From: PatC To: Jim S. Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 13:49:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim S said: ''I think what got me the most was not the scandalous stuff, but reading rawats old satsangs, contrasted with his new image....it was enough to want to make me throw up...also, seeing how the premies found a way to rationalize it all was a huge red flag for me...'' Yes, the scandals did not affect me personally and are abstract. What did affect me personally was the bare-faced lies that Rawat published on his own website. His original website did more to disillusion me than EPO. What an insult to our intelligence and total disrespect for our history.

Subject: May I help for the date? From: Jean-Michel To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:04:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm one of the few western premies who had been invited (they were a few dozens of us) at the 1st international event that happened at Santyogashram in the early 80s. We slept in sleeping bags, and on the ground under some tents reserved for us, near the location where the tents for the westerners used to be in the 80s and 90s. M ride a horse through the campground on that year, there are picture of the event somewhere on epo. And he gave a small darshan during (rather after) a small storm in front of the gates of the residence's garden, seated on an armchair on the ground of the road. Maybe there was a carpet under his feet, I don't remember. If the accident happened on that year, I still have my old passport and can find the dates of the event.

Subject: That's silly, CPG From: Tonette To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:00:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please don't take offense because I called you silly. I do not mean to insult. However, you have said in so many words, wisely I think, that you do not altogether trust the information one reads on the internet, forum and EPO included. There is no proof, hard evidence. So, assuming Michael Dettmers is reading here and does post to you how are you going to know it's really him? What's to say that I don't decide to script out a reply to you using Michael's name? All that aside, I want to thank you for responding to my post below and that was a nice compliment you gave me when you said I sounded like a beautiful mother. I do wonder if we are on the same page when examinig morals and ethics. i always understood morals to mean living by your principals of right and wrong, your behavior. Ethics describing your understanding between right and wrong, knowing the differance between right and wrong. So morals, behavior, directly illustrates one's ethics, definition. That said, do you think M's behavior when addressing the rape of children by his initiator Jagdeo, when it came to light was morally correct? Let's give M the benefit of doubt. Let's assume M didn't know until Abi's father met with him at Amaroo 2 years ago. So M has had two years to compensate Abi and let's face it he has the means to do so, and has not. What does that tell you about his ethics as well as his morals? A further step. If you were M and had just found out that you had employed and supported a paedophile, would you not use your organization to seek out other victims in order to help them? That sounds like a right move to me. Has that happened? Nope. In fact, EV said that Jagdeo was living in retirement in a small village in India. Would you not use your resources and influence to bring him to justice? So, CPG, the cyclist incidence is your new focus. Hell, anyone can accidently hit someone with their car. Why is this a big deal? It just illuminates another aspect of M, he's a coward. And I wonder. Besides harbouring a rapist of children, shirking responsibility for an accidental death, laundering money, just what else has he done that we are not aware of? You'll not get your proof here I'm sorry to say. Where will you find it? By adding 2+2 and using your common sense since you're not likely to get the time of day from your master. Good luck. And be so very careful. Tonette

Subject: You've got something in a nutshell From: Sir Dave To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 05:09:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Where you (Tonette) wrote regarding the Jagdeo child abuse case: ''If you were M and had just found out that you had employed and supported a paedophile, would you not use your organization to seek out other victims in order to help them? That sounds like a right move to me. Has that happened? Nope'' This is one of the most damning things against Maharaji and his organisation - his lack of movement to help the victims of Jagdeo's paedophile crimes. I believe none of them have even been offered any constructive help but have simply been harrassed to ''shut up'' and go away. Even the Catholic church moves swiftly to help child sex victims when its own paedophile cases come to light. Instead of help, the whole thing is brushed under the carpet while Maharaji plans his next ridiculous campaign to get money from potential wealthy clients in that "Leaders" magazine.

Subject: The church is just as bad From: Jerry To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:23:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Even the Catholic church moves swiftly to help child sex victims when its own paedophile cases come to light. The Catholic church is just as much concerned with it's image as Maharaji is with his. For years, decades, and even millineum, I'd bet the church as been a sanctualry for pedaphiles, and knowingly. If the scandal had never reached the headlines, and action was DEMANDED to be taken, we never would have known about it. Before than, any allegations of child abuse were quickly hushed up and payoffs in the millions were made so nobody would ever know about it. Don't give the church any slack, Dave. They're just as much unconcerned with their victims' plight, as compared to their image, as Maharaji is.

Subject: Re: The church is just as bad From: Cynthia To: Jerry Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 14:04:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jerry, You're right. The RCC would never have gone public if not forced to to so. Here on the east coast it's been in the local news as well as national because of all the Boston cases. Cardinal Law of Boston has been asked to resign for harboring pedophile priests for years. The Attorney General of Vermont has demanded that the Archdiocese of Vermont submit the names of all priests who have offended against children in Vermont so they can review the cases. The RCC spokesman said that they didn't think it was necessary to go back as far as 1937 (there is an allegation of sexual abuse from back then) and the AG of Vermont replied by saying ''We want ALL the names of priests now--when it happened doesn't matter to us. These guys are going to answer for their crimes.'' Our state legislature is working on removing any statutes of limitation on child sexual abuse cases. One reason is that it affects a person for their whole life (potentially). I have complained a lot to legislators that statutes of limitation on any sex crimes should be left open, just a murder crimes are. This issue has busted wide open within the RCC. As I said many times before, Vermont is a forerunner in the US in stopping sexual abuse and child abuse of all kinds for the last ten to fifteen years. The result of that is you hear about a lot of cases. That doesn't mean the abuse has increased, necessarily rather that it is being brought to light. April is Child Abuse Awareness month (nationwide?) in Vermont. They want to flush these guys out and make sure, whatever their age now, that they answer to the criminal justice system here. It's very serious business. Personally, I am gleeful about the RCC's exposure now. It's long overdue. Now I'm waiting for the Native American children who were stolen from their parents as recent as the 1950s and '60s and placed into orphanage-type schools, and abused by (Jesuit) priests and nuns. Now that's another can of worms for the church. This ain't gonna be over soon. Good! Good! Good! Telling is the taboo so finally something is being done. Phew! Cynthia

Subject: thanks Cynthia From: Susan To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 19:57:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: reading all the headlines lately about the Catholic Church and child abuse all I can think is how similar it is. I have long wondered since Jagdeo became a traveling initiator in what I would guess to be ( well, at least he seemed a lot older than most of the premies) if he wasn't using the cult to run from trouble in India. I hope that whatever caused the cult to sue him in India and acknowledge that he is a pedophile has ( at the same time sort of slapping Abi and I in the face )....we admit he is a pedophile but not what those two say was what I read...hmmm... anyway, I hope he has been stopped. That was really the thing I have wanted since 1977, just to have the peace of mind that he has been stopped for good.

Subject: Hi Susan... From: Cynthia To: Susan Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 23:06:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Susan, You are one person who gives me faith in humans. You're so good. I'm not like you at all--I get nuts over this issue. I don't seek revenge but I get very angry about child abuse in all of it's forms. It just drives me wild. (Don't worry, I'll be good here):):) Do you know how old Jagdeo is now? I'm curious. It doesn't really matter. According to Jim, pedophiles kind of 'retire' as they get old but that's not necessarily the rule. I hope you're doing well. It's good to see you posting here. The weirdest (but not most difficult) thing about child sexual abuse is the denial don't you think? Why would an adult make something like this up? It's absurd when the denial comes rushing at you like a river overflowing after a spring thaw blowing over you like you're a dispensible person. That makes me so angry. It's absurd and frustrating especially because you know you've told the truth. I think right now that the victims of the RCC priests might be feeling quite good to finally having some validation. The validation is important because of the flow of denial. Money's good but the validation by the public must be overwhelmingly helpful in getting the last residues of shame out and gone. Susan, it's good to see you here. I believe you and it was never your fault. I suspect you know that by now. Lots of love and a big hug, Cynthia

Subject: Failure to pay abuse victims = GREED From: Marianne To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:51:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The whole reason Rawat does not want to pay anyone who has been harmed by his organization or his employees is that it will take money out of his pocket, pure and simple. Marianne

Subject: Bad investment ! From: Jean-Michel To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:03:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't understand why he's so stupid. Any new from the 'crazy mexican' ? He didn't call me, nor did I !!

Subject: He's home now --ot From: Marianne To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:10:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey there. He's home now. He had a great time in his travels though. His time in Paris conflicted with your vacation.... Maybe next time. Will we see you in SF any time soon? Marianne

Subject: Precisely, Dave [nt] From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 05:53:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: He's not silly. He's earnest. From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:31:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At least that's my hunch but you are right, Tonette, that it is silly to expect to trust a post on the internet. The net is full of anonymous people some of whom even pretend to be others. But, if you've learned over time to ''hear someone's voice'' as those of us who are regulars have, then you can be fairly sure of what's being said. For instance - those of us who have seen Michael Dettmers post over a period accept what he says. CPG hasn't read enough of Dettmers' stuff to trust his voice yet. He's being a bit silly to expect that Dettmers is reading the forum. Most exes don't read it all the time. But sofar I trust CPG and feel that he is being more earnest than silly and I hope that, for his sake, Dettmers is reading the forum.

Subject: Wait a second, 2nd reply to you Pat From: Tonette To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 04:23:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't flame him did I? If I did, I sure didn't mean to. I was being forthwrite and honest but I do sound kinda harsh. Shit. Tonette

Subject: 2nd reply to you. Tonette From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 04:43:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, you didn't flame him. I thought you were great. I've just finished responding to him below. His answer to you was terrific. He's a good guy but so are you. Your responses to him have been very kind and goodhearted.

Subject: Oh yes, he's very sincere From: Tonette To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 04:05:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't doubt that for an instance. He's got questions that he WANTS answers to. The cyclist instance is just one of them. But, (why is there always a but?), CPG has stated several times in the threads below, that he just doesn't trust information on the internet. The Dettmers writings are on EPO, front and center. The Jagdeo affair, letters from EV, Abi's and Susan's account, etc are on EPO, front and center. So if Michael is not reading here at this time and does not post, is CPG never going to be able to resolve his issues? We are obviously not enough, what's on EPO is not enough. I am worried about this individual. He seems like a good person and most importantly, he has young children. Call that a paranoid statement if you like. It's not that I think anything is going to happen to his kids. I just hate the idea that M is not only able to influence an adults behavior but gets secondary exposure and perhaps influence because children are present. That's completely repulsive to me. So, that's why I wrote what I did. Good to write to you Thelma, I mean Pat. (little joke there) If I'm ever within 100 miles of you I warn you, I'm going to call, get directions to your place and meet you and Chuck. I do hope CPG gets a reply from Michael. There's always email. Isn't Michael's address somewhere here? Love, Tonette

Subject: Re: Oh yes, he's very sincere From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 04:21:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Too funny I just finished posting to you in your response to CPG below. What a brilliant essay you wrote. I won't say what I said to you except it was a treat to read. CPG is questioning for different reasons than you and I did. We both left because it was obviously a cult. He's worried about the details.

Subject: We think somewhat alike, me thinks From: Tonette To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 04:49:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I wrote to CPG about myself and my family I thought 'I finally wrote my journey.' It's high time I did that and added it to EPO. There's some to add, it is desperate need of grammer and spell corrections but what you read is my journey, in a nutshell. Funny you should say that in your post to me below. It's exactly what I thought. The forum is lots of things. Therapeutic is one of them. Sorting things out. Understanding what happened to you and why. The more one is able to untangle the web of Maharaji's world and it's hold on you, the easier it becomes to see the reality of what he really is. God Pat, it's hard for me to express what you said means to me. Feels kinda cosmic or something. Definately a warm fuzzy! Love, Tonette

Subject: I've known that for a while [nt] From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 05:52:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: While you are waiting for Michael... From: Gail To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 00:54:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi there! Do you think it's odd that Maharaji is reverting to his given name at this stage of the game. Do you realize that he has changed his title from Guru Maharaj Ji to Maharaj Ji to Maharaji to Prem Rawat??? He's also changed the organization's name for times. If you check out the cult check list, you may find that it is common for cult leaders to reinvent themselves and their organization. Do you remember when he pretended to be GOD-IN-A-BOD because I certainly do. It doesn't get any more immoral than that. We followed a fake. Would you please address these issues.

Subject: I didn't become an ex instantly either From: Mirror To: Gail Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 09:53:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course it is important to point out all issues related to M and the cult, but in most cases one doesn't become an ex overnight. It takes a while before we feel strong enough within ourselves to let the entire momentum of premie-conditioning collapse. It starts with noticing some inconsistencies, what follows is questioning as the mind slowly releases its natural functions of inquisitiveness and curiosity. After some research a very uncomfortable feeling arises.....: doubt! Of course it happens a little different for all of us, but give the guy a break. He will address all those issues in his own time. Like you had to become 'ready for knowledge', you have to become 'ready for reality' as well... Mirror

Subject: Don't make me barf From: Jerry To: Mirror Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:32:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like you had to become 'ready for knowledge', you have to become 'ready for reality' as well... You mean, like when you were thoroughly brainwashed? Is that what you mean about being ready for Knowledge? God, I remember that phrase, now, and it makes me sick. Ready for Knowledge. What a crock, eh? Yech!!

Subject: Another consideration , CPG From: Livia To: Gail Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 04:20:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear CPG, Here's another consideration. (There are so many.) What is your opinion of Maharaji's acquisition of the $7 yacht? Do you really think that if his priority really was the propagation of Knowledge, he would be spending an amount like that on his own luxury and comfort? If he had an extra $7 to play with, why did he not use it for propagation purposes? After all, apparently only 200 people received the Knowledge in the USA last year. Is this really an efficient and intelligent use of resources? Think about this carefully, while you wait to hear from Michael Dettmers. With regards, Livia

Subject: Re: Another consideration , CPG From: Jerry To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:34:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What is your opinion of Maharaji's acquisition of the $7 yacht? A 7 dollar yacht?! Where can I get one? You're not talking about one of them little bathtub doodads, are you? Because I want the real thing.

Subject: Maharaji's $7 million yacht... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 06:53:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, That was a funny mistake! Now that he wants to be called Prem Rawat I'm feeling comfortable calling him Maharaji again. Snotty, aren't I? One thing that has always bothered me about his yacht is that instead of using the dollars spent on his own luxury he hasn't used the money to compensate Abi and other victims of Jagdeo. That's the insidious part for me. It's always I-Me-Mine for Maharaji. Of all the things Maharaji has required for his personal life-style he won't budge to acknowledge the victims. Maharaji is so wrapped up in himself that he probably thinks by ''gracing'' Abi's father with a private meeting was enough. It's not. There is something he could do today as Marianne said so well down below. Whether or not the yacht is paid for is immaterial to the discussion. The compensation due the victims is long overdue. Love, Cynthia

Subject: I meant SEVEN MILLION DOLLARS! [nt] From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 06:29:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Oh! From: Jerry To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:37:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Damn. Too bad. I thought there was some kind of great special going on. Oh, well.

Subject: (LOL!) [nt] From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 09:27:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: If he had an extra $7 to play with From: PatC (LOL) To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 05:57:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If I had an extra $7 to play with I'd go to the movies. Haven't had that kind of money since 9-11 and I'm serious.

Subject: A Seven Dollar Yacht? From: JHB To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 04:51:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think Livia may have accidentally omitted the word 'million' a couple of times from her post:) John.

Subject: I'll have three please From: Sir Dave :p To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 06:42:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Business is picking up and I'm flush.

Subject: Maharaji's New Foundation is Disgusting! From: Gail To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 21:15:46 (EDT) Email Address: GCmacdougall@yahoo.com Message: The Foundation provides information to organizations wishing to invite Maharaji to speak. Ya, right! There is only one organization--his! Granted, it is hard to know what its called this month? (albeit, DLM, DUO EV, Visions, and the new financial Foundation) He implies that anyone can have his motivation spiel anywhere in the world for free. He offers [his message] free to the ...[ truly brainwashed]. [They] can express their appreciation to the Prem Rawat Foundation via credit card and cheque. The Prem Rawat Foundation has applied for tax exemption. If he gets tax-free status on this one, you can bet that the other junk will disappear just like DLM. Oh boy! He's reinventing himself again like the coward he is! Why can't the PWICKS see this new agenda for the fraud it is! How can he say his junk is for free! His house was built for free by his premie slaves. Nothing in the LARD's WHIRLD is free.

Subject: Re: Maharaji's New Foundation is Disgusting! From: Ben Lurking To: Gail Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 14:32:05 (EDT) Email Address: benlurken@aol.com Message: Maybe it is time to ask the IRS why this guy keeps needing all these tax exempt organizations - can these requests be appealed by the public - any of you lawyers out there know A-

Subject: Re: Maharaji's New Foundation is Disgusting! From: Livia To: Gail Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 04:31:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anybody know if there are two separate channels for donations these days - one for propagation and one for Maharaji's personal use? Or does it all come under the same bracket? And while on the subject, does anyone have any concrete proof that money donated for propagation purposes (previously EV, presumably) ended up in Maharaji's pocket? This connects with my point to CPG above, which I think is a point worthy of consideration. If Maharaji's chief concern really was the propagation of Knowledge, why does he not feel the compulsion to forward large amounts of what is given to him to this purpose? Love, Livia

Subject: Leaders Magazine is dragging its feet From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 18:09:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You'll recall that as early as our first conversation on Saturday, Darrell Brown promised to send me the article. It's now Thursday and, despite several emails and a couple of phone messages, nothing. It's not the time itself -- what's a few days between friends? -- but the fact that on Monday, the second time I actually talked with him, he specifically promised to send it that day and, like I say, I've called and emailed since. Calls aren't taken, not returned, and neither are my emails. Oh well ....... We just need to get a copy to look at, don't you think? Sooner rather than later? Someone else, I think perhaps La-Ex, actually has a copy already, right? Would it be too much to ask you to email me one? jimheller@shaw.ca Obviously, this doesn't bode well for Leaders taking any initiative in dealing with this ridiculous article responsibly. Oh well, if that's the case -- and I hope I'm proven wrong -- I'm sure their magazine will garner the credibility warranted by printing such a silly piece in the first place. And all I wa trying to do was help .... :(

Subject: surprise surprise From: Well well To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 01:26:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God you are naive Jim Heller. Do you have any idea how many calls from cranks, loonies and disgruntled readers editors get on a daily basis? Obviously not. Sorry to break the news after your much applauded 'coup' but let's settle back down a bit. Jim, the Leaders staff regard you as a joke, a silly, slightly hysterical, unhappy, disillusioned guru gobbler(sic). They have as much intention of giving you the time of day - as you do to looking in the mirror and seeing the impotent loser standing there pretenting he is Hunter S Thompson. a tip - Best not to brag too loudly until you get a real result. Now, what will you do? Ahhh so predictable...so, so predictable You'll rubbish the Leaders Magasine! Wow, so original!! Yes, you'll bark and blurt and rant all about it being a fraud, a lie, a greedy manipulative organ of Satan himself. gee you must have been popular at school.

Subject: Bullshit, Roupell From: Jim To: Well well Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 01:34:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You weren't listening on the other phone, were you? I know. I can tell. :)

Subject: Re: Bullshit, Roupell From: Ben Lurking To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 12:47:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, This is a trade rag for lack of a better word - subcription of 35,000 world wide, figure probally 20% of the mags go to different people at the same address, if 25% of the subcribers actually read it thats maybe 9,000 people in the world that will read this article, probably morelike 3-4000. This is a real niche magazine funded by advertisers - somebody used some real 'editorial capital' to get the article written, must be one of the advertisers that rawat buys from. Is he portrayed as a religous leader?

Subject: Not Roupell. It's the Nonymouse? Unix Borg thingy From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 05:40:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, of course it could be Roupell. Who knows since it's anonymous. All I know for sure is that it is a cult clone; the Akashic Borg; the OM police; those who have a MASTER! Oooh wheee; ooh wheee or however the Twilight Zone tune goes.

Subject: Re: Leaders Magazine is dragging its feet From: Ben Lurking To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 15:42:29 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Jim, This magazine is free to the qualified subscribers, which means the advertisers are paying the bill. Look at the qualifications for a free subcription, do you think qualified as a religous leader or a business leader? most of the subcribers are in finacial industires which means they are probally looking for leads A- DEFINITION OF RECIPIENT QUALIFICATION Qualified Business recipients include Chairman, Vice-Chairman, President, Chief Executive Officer, Managing Director, Director General, General Manager, Managing Partner, Director, Senior Partner, Executive Director, Chief Operating Officer, Chief Financial Officer, Treasurer, Controller, Pension Fund Manager, Vice President-Finance, Senior Information/MIS Executive & other Senior Corporate Executives. Qualified Government recipients include President, Prime Minister, King, Queen, Prince, Emperor, Premier, Amir, Grand Duke, Paramount Ruler, Sultan, Governor General, Chancellor, Minister, Ambassador, Commissioner, Secretary, Chairman, Senator, Representative, Military Leaders, Member of Parliament, Diet and other Senior Executive, Legislative and Judicial Officials. Qualified Labor recipients include Union President, Secretary General and other Senior Labor Executives. Qualified Education recipients include University President, Chancellor, Director, Chairman, Dean, Rector and Other Senior Administrators. Qualified Religion recipients include Pope, Dalai Lama, President, Ayatollah, Patriarch, Rabbi, Cardinal, Archbishop and other worldwide religious leaders. ID Number L030P0J1 Circulation Claim 2001* Total Audit Average Qualified: ____________________________ 35,239 Qualified Non-Paid: _____________________________________ 35,239 Qualified Paid: _________________________________________ – Post Expire Copies included in Paid Circulation: ______________ NC** Average Annual Order Price: ______________________________ NC** *NOTE: 2001 data is unaudited. With each successive year, new data will be added until five years of data is displayed. **NC = None claimed 10. PAID CIRCULATION DATA NC** Average Annual Subscription Order Price for the Period Required (includes promotional incentive value, if any) 4 Issues Per Year NC** All Single Copy Sales Prices for the Period NC** Renewal Rate of Paid Subscribers (Optional) Leaders Magazine / June 2001 www.bpai.com

Subject: Re: Leaders Magazine is dragging its feet From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 09:29:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What about the possibility that Darrell Brown is a premie? It seems perfectly plausible to me. That would explain how the article got through in the first place, wouldn't it? Just speculating of course. Livia

Subject: Clearly a Vanity Rag..it Soul.. From: RM To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 00:31:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Purpose is to present an IMAGE of Elitist Success and Relevance. Thus any public disclosure of their blunder in promoting the One who the Creator Preserver and Destroyer so recently bowed their heads To....Captain Rawat...would blow their Image as the Elite and Creditable Publication they are apparently pretending to be. The very attempt at rectifying their mistake would only draw attention to their negligence in featuring The Former Lord God in his New Incarnation as Sly Dog and Master to the Very Very Wealthy. Because they have virtually no public exposure, Im certain that they feel somewhat secure that there is nothing that We the Ex-Premies of the Captain can do to publicly expose their mistake. They Are safe from scrutiny..as long as they dont choose to scrutinize themselves..which they're NOT going to do..obviously..Thus Jim..They've obviously decided just to STONEWALL..you/us... Alas...unless someone here can think up a possible CONSEQUENCE to them for not at least editorially retracting Captain Rawat's Propaganda piece.. Can anyone suggest a possible consequence we could credibly suggest to LEADERS???.. If so then what remedy (such as an editorial retraction/or??) might we ask them for that would mitigate the implementation of that consequence??? Im all Ears....

Subject: Hello RM From: Marianne To: RM Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 14:21:39 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aolc.om Message: Hey there. How are you? How are you doing? Drop me an email if you like. Fondly, Marianne

Subject: Tell them this. From: Bryn To: RM Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 06:38:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Leaders' discretely trumpets that it is a key influence on the ruling elite of the entire world.We have to take them at their word or they would be fraudulently selling nothing at all. So perhaps the more egalitarian low brow press should be given the opportunity to break the sensational news to there oppressed paranoid readership, of the discovery of the existence of a secret magazine that controls every aspect of our daily lives on our planet. I expect 'Leaders' might then modify their description of themselves: 'oh well actually were just a little old private magazine really'. And so cast a doubt on the very effectiveness of the service they are purporting to provide. Just a thought, love Bryn

Subject: 'Leaders' responsibility.... From: one idea To: RM Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:19:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A few thoughts: 1-If enough people complain, would Leaders post their questions and concerns to maharaji for his response? They could then post the critics questions along with m's answers in the next issue. (Makes sense, but somehow I don't see them doing it) 2-If 100 Senators and 435 House members receive Leaders, shouldn't they know that the publication they have sitting in their office has just published an entirely dishonest piece about a cult leader? Do they want to be associated wth a magazine that would publish such a misinformed piece about a man who has conned so many around the world, and refuses to deal with it? Are there subcommittees on cults? M spoke before Congress once in the mid 1970's. I remember the video, where he talked about the 'invisible hand of god' guiding the US.... Are there particular senators (Lieberman?) who might know more about cults than others, and how to deal with them? Shouldn't these leaders know the truth about the Leaders article? E-mails don't generally mean much to them, but letters, especialy hand-written ones do.... Anyone want to spearhead a letter writing campaign?

Subject: Talking of M's influence on politics: From: cq To: one idea Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 12:07:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A few months ago, Joe posted an article from the New York Review of Books, called BLISSING OUT IN HOUSTON By Francine du Plessix Gray Here's an excerpt from the excerpt (I've boldened some of the text that deals with the opinions of some of the premies interviewed re the US government of that era): November 9th 1973: Maharaj Ji at his first and only press conference: 'I would be very happy if the press could cooperate with me because if peace is established on earth, you will get the credit! And that would be really fantastic and far out, because this is what we really need today, peace!' Reporter: 'What about your Rolls Royce?' Maharaj Ji: 'If you're going to feed a child this morning he's going to be hungry again this afternoon all a Rolls Royce is is a piece of tin. If I gave poor people my Rolls Royce they would need more tomorrow and I don't have any more Rolls Royce to give them.' He sits a few feet from us in his white satin duds, alternately smiling, pouting, and baiting us. There is a faint mustache on his imperious, round brown face. The press has tried to check out a rumor that he's really nineteen going on twenty, and has faked his passport as a lila, to get more attention. Reporter: 'Are you the son of God?' Maharaj Ji: 'Everyone is the son of God. None of you ain't the uncle or aunt of God.' Reporter: 'Are you God?' Maharaj Ji: 'I am a humble servant of God.' Reporter: 'Then why do your devotees say you're God?' Maharaj Ji: 'Why don't you ask them?' Someone then asks about the Detroit incident, which led a reporter to be hit over the head with a blackjack by a man from the Divine Light Mission. The Maharaj Ji's aide says let's pass on to a more relevant question. Mayhem occurs, everyone at the press conference wanting to know more about the incident. (See the accompanying box.) The conference is shortly thereafter terminated. Ken Kelley, covering the events for Ramparts, reports that there's an astrological prediction that the Guru's testicles will descend tomorrow, on the third day of the Millennium. 2 PM: The best seats in the Astrodome have been reserved for the premies' parents, for Divine Light is big on family solidarity, on healing the Sixties' generation gap and getting parents and children together again. However it is very difficult to talk to parents as most of them have requested not to be disturbed or interviewed. 'Some of them are a little embarrassed,' a premie explains. In the electric blue-and gold-walled luxury loges where the parents sit, an elegant woman with a Kenneth hairdo and a Bonwit Teller raincoat is trying to communicate with her teenage son, who sits eyes closed, blissed out by one of the mahatmas' speeches. 'It's a charming show, darling, and I love their color schemes, it gives me ideas for my living room.' 3 PM: I talk to Gary Girard, who was the very first American to receive Knowledge and has been personal secretary to the Guru. He tells me that he first went to India in '68, when he was selling macramé belts on street corners and shooting dope all over Australia and the Far East. His father is a well-to-do California businessman, and Gary started the Asian dope circuit right after high school.Gary has a grandiose vision of the impact Maharaj Ji is already having on the world: 'I assure you that the President of the United States is on top of everything the Guru is doing. I'm convinced that the President of the United States just loves this because he simply can't deny the humanitarian work Maharaj Ji is doing.' 'Do you consider Nixon a humanitarian President?' 'Nixon has served the people well,' Gary answers. 'He only does what he can do. It's not his fault that he has a mind which doesn't function properly.' 'Why are there so few black premies in the United States?' 'Black people are not interested in Maharaj Ji because they're not interested enough in themselves.' 'What is your notion of equality?' 'Equality is not how much you have but same-sightedness, unity of vision, which is what we have.' The next premie I talk to is a forty-three-year-old architect, formerly employed by Frank Lloyd Wright, who also sees Nixon as 'without fault' because 'when people are corrupt they produce a corrupt leader. It's the people's fault.' Larry Bernstein had been waiting for Maharaj Ji since 1949, when he read a prophecy by Edgar Cayce which said that in 1969 a boy born in the foothills of the Himalayas would lead the world. Larry received Knowledge because 'my destiny is to be infinite.' Larry is the designer of the Divine City which the Divine Light Mission is planning to start building next year. It will be suspended between the two cliffsides of a great canyon and will have a hall for satsang large enough to seat 144,000 people (a figure from the Book of Revelation). There will be no money or currency of any sort in the Divine City, people will take out whatever they need from the stores and in 12,000 years, Larry says, there will only be saints on earth, everyone will possess cosmic consciousness. November 10 3 PM: Paul Krassner of The Realist has challenged Rennie Davis to a public debate, and Davis has accepted. I take a few notes. Resolved: That Davis has copped out to turn kids away from social responsibility to personal escape. Davis: Ever since I've returned from India I've felt the hope, the incredible joy which I think can await us all. I have realized that the hopes of the Sixties are going to be fulfilled in the Seventies, that the Sixties' generation of peace is going to finally peak . We grew up at a time in the Sixties, with the new left, when we saw we were inspired to not start with a blueprint or philosophy or doctrine . Only a commitment to process and to learning to control the process. In the same way, Divine Light Mission is an experience that's being offered and you can't draw judgments on it until you've had the experience. The Maharaj Ji gives us an experience of the mystery of life, of the purpose of creation, of God. Krassner: I find that the Maharaj Ji is the spiritual equivalent of Mark Spitz . I'm interested in knowing the status of Rennie's love life. I hear that it's okay for mahatmas to have sex but not for the premies. Davis: In the ashrams we practice celibacy to suspend confusion . We see that sex is not only for pleasure but for bringing another soul into the human body so it can come to realize Knowledge. Krassner: It's natural for the kids to turn to the Second Coming of Santa Claus . Davis: He's no Santa Claus. He's the Lord. His trip is our trip . When I decided to receive Knowledge I felt the light technique was questionable but then I saw this incredible light in the center of a circle in the middle of my forehead a diamond was there spinning and spinning and getting larger and larger and then the divine music a heavy roar for a while then dinnnnnnnng, every fiber of my being began to vibrate an incredible wave of bliss shot through me then my mind began to play this incredible rock and roll, Bam boum boum boum boum. Krassner: This is like being with CREEP . Did the Maharaj Ji give Richard Nixon a secret contribution? Davis: Yes-he gave Richard Nixon his life. click here for full article www.ex-premie3.org/archives/archive.cgi?arch=20020219b#P_11275.62313954360

Subject: why not write a satire From: Zelda To: one idea Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 04:05:07 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Someone could write an article that doesnt dispute the Leader one. I dont know where such an article could appear but it may be effective to turn this vanity thing against him. It could confirm that yes the successful Prem What is none other than the boy guru of old and yes this is how he made his fortune- by dressing up, claiming to be god, and 'encouraging ' devotees to donate money to this or that organization- but the 'knowledge ' was realy for free.!! An article that tells the truth - but with the 'vanity' slant intact instead of wrtiten as a rebuttal. Let him steep in his own slick businessman juices - Magazines might print it if it doesnt overtly put Prem What down - but gives the rest of the truth in a 'Vanity' light Any reader with half a brain would assess that Maraji is a sharp businessman cum Speaker. I

Subject: Let him steep in his own slick businessman juices From: PatC To: Zelda Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 05:55:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Any reader with half a brain would assess that Maraji is a sharp businessman cum Speaker.'' That's Maharajism in a nutshell. But seriously - that's a good idea - ''Let him steep in his own slick businessman juices.'' Enough with the juices already! :C)

Subject: Ooops. :) [nt] From: Zelda To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 06:28:34 (EDT) Email Address: none Message:

Subject: Re: Leaders Magazine is dragging its feet From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 19:41:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why am I not surprised? It's a vanity rag run by hustlers for other hustlers. Puff!

Subject: Yes, from Perfect Hamster to Perfect Gerbil! [nt] From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 23:04:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: A marvel of economy From: gerry To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 20:15:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well said, Pat. They'll want to keep their heads down on this one and hope it all blows over. The last thing they want is controversy or criticism.

Subject: Re: A marvel of economy From: bill To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 22:27:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, they are another victim of the rawat family scam. Cant really blame them for dreading the results of this fiasco. Folks could lose jobs ect. I am sure the one who steered them to the rawat mess is in hot water. It would be interesting to know who that is and how they pulled it off. Well it gives the lord something to read as he sits in his Mala and Crown in his royal dressing room. Glass in the other hand, cigarette waiting in the ashtray. Think he gets the mahatmahooker whats her name to give him oral while wearing the crown? You know, maybe we should do a poster size copy of my poster size photo of senor rawat in crown and mala and send it to the staff of leaders mag, maybe AFTER a couple months and thier stress level is down. They would laugh. Once they knew that they had survived this disaster.

Subject: Oh Lard, great idea, bill LOL From: gerry To: bill Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 23:30:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I bet the poster would be up in the lunch room for months, that is, if they have a lunch room. Do Leaders have lunch rooms? I can see the whole scene in the dressing room, bill you smutty guy: crooked crown, a little grin on Rawat's face (like the one in the double darshan photo) and all the huffing and puffing...

Subject: LET'S CALL THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER THEN !!! From: gErRy To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 18:28:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: just kidding...

Subject: Re: LET'S CALL THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER-seriously. From: janet To: gErRy Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 00:27:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: two can play that game. and include the shame and deception that he just pulled on LEADERS magazine. there's nothing the hoi polloi love so much as hearing when the pompous get caught with their asses out. leaders have servants . and servants read the enquirer. there's nothng like using one hand of the media to force the hand of the other.

Subject: LET'S CALL all our Senators and U.S. REPS... From: Cynthia To: janet Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 07:05:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Seriously. If they receive Leaders they should be informed about whom their reading. In fact, I frequently call my national representatives. We only have one Congressman, Bernie Sanders. I'd bet he'd be very interested in someone like Maharaji who has for years been living practically tax free on the cult members. Yes, I'll do it today. Any suggestions for what should be said are most welcome. I'm serious. If enough folks in Congress are called or emailed, they might ask their interns to dig it out of the trash to take a look! Cynthia

Subject: That's democracy in action. [nt] From: Neville To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 12:22:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Seems good to me From: Sir Dave To: janet Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 05:24:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I still think that's a good idea, Janet. I got lost when the recent fight over the National Enquirer got going and still don't understand what it was all about. The National Enquirer is also sold in Britain, by the way, in huge numbers. Many people read it and it does have a better reputation than ''Weekly World News'' or some of our own comics.

Subject: Re: Leaders Magazine is dragging its feet From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 18:13:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's the incredible re-appearing wall of silence.... are we shocked? are we dazed? are we astounded? patterns, patterns, pretty little patterns.

Subject: Challenge to any premie who knows Prouty From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 17:15:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As I mentioned in a thread below, Dettmers' account of Maharaji killing the cyclist in India does have at least one likely witness (besides Maharaji, I mean), and that's Randy Prouty. Here's Dettmers: In the early 80’s, following a festival at the ashram outside of New Delhi, India, Maharaji and his motorcade were traveling from the ashram to the airport to board the 707 for America. Maharaji was driving the lead car and I was a passenger in the front seat of the car directly behind his. All of a sudden, I saw a man riding a bicycle pull out in front of Maharaji’s car. Seconds later the man went flying several yards into the ditch. He died instantly. Randy Prouty, who was traveling as security in Maharaji’s vehicle, frantically ran to the car I was in and instructed all of us to get out of the car and find a place in the other vehicles that were part of the motorcade. Maharaji and the people in his car quickly transferred to the car I was in, and we all sped to the airport. Sampurnanand stayed behind to deal with the situation which he did by having his houseboy take the wrap. In the investigation that ensued, the houseboy stating that he was the driver of the vehicle who hit the unfortunate cyclist. That explanation, plus a heft cash settlement to the victim’s family, enabled Maharaji to quickly put the incident behind him so that he could get on with the business of bringing peace, love and joy to the rest of humanity. I urge anyone reluctant to take Dettmers' word on this to ask Prouty themself. I'd imagine he can't be that hard to find, can he? Yes, I know he's a PAM and all that but it's not like he's the Lord of the Universe, is it? Why not just take a moment and ask him? Fair? *********************************************** ..... annnnnnnd, while you're at it, you might want to raise this matter with him as well. Susan Haupt, who, like Abi, was molested by Jagdeo, wrote the following letter to Maharaji. Notice how, here too, Prouty shows up: July 19, 2000 Dear Mr. Rawat, My name is Susan Haupt. I am the person known as “Susan” who has made public on the ”Ex-premie Website” my experience with Jagdeo when I was a teenager. I am writing to you now in response to claims made on your Élan Vital website in a new section called FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions). In response to the question “Has Élan Vital covered up alleged past improper behavior?” you state that “We are aware that some opposing sites make allegations in particular against one individual concerning events alleged to have happened 25 years ago. This kind of behavior, if true, is completely unacceptable to Élan Vital and we would be as appalled as anyone if this was found to be true. The only information we have comes from postings on these sites. We were able to contact two individuals who made these allegations and asked that they help shed light on what happened but as yet have received no cooperation from them. As it stands Élan Vital has still received no direct information from any of the alleged victims and to date no complaint has been filed with Élan Vital or with any authorities”. Mr. Rawat let me assure you that twice in the past I have reported what had happened to me and what I knew about Jagdeo. First to Randy Prouty and secondly to Judy Osborne who both allegedly now claim “no recollection” of the conversations I had with them. So naturally, I feel insulted that you think I am unwilling to come forward with a complaint, nor do I have any trust that Élan Vital really wishes to seriously investigate this matter. However, I still have deep concern that Jagdeo may still be molesting children, despite his advanced age, and if reporting this matter a third time might allow you to finally stop him, I shall do so. Although I am now 38 and happily married with three children, in 1977, I was a 15-year-old premie living in Miami. I had been very involved with the Divine Light Mission for the previous two years and had received knowledge from Mahatma Jagdeo in January 1975. I was very sincere in my commitment to “Guru Maharaj Ji” and when I sang arti I believed every word. I also lined up with the other premies to receive darshan. I believed I was a part of the greatest miracle of the perfect master incarnating on earth to bring Knowledge and peace to mankind. I point this out now because, had I not believed these things, I might have dealt with what I knew about Jagdeo differently. How I dealt with what did happen is something I regret tremendously. To understand what happened, and how it happened, one really has to recall the common premie beliefs of that time. These were beliefs that you were obviously well aware of and promoted. I went to satsang nearly every night, meditated morning and night, and attended every festival I could. I believed you were the perfect master, superior power in person, my Lord, my satguru. I believed you to be a benevolent, kind, messiah-like figure. So in 1977, I was 15, when Jagdeo returned to Miami, I was thrilled because, as my initiator, he was special to me. He also seemed to have a special fondness for children. At my knowledge selection and session, several young girls with flowers in their hair sat at his feet. At this time in DLM, Mahatmas were treated with great respect, and certainly it was an honor for these girls to sit facing the crowd, at Mahatma Ji’s feet. Everyone knew he seemed to love children. In 1977, he invited me, then 15, and another (edited for privacy) to the Venetian pool in Coral Gables. I felt honored. An ashram premie brother drove us there (I do not remember his name). While we were in the pool, Jagdeo rubbed up against me over and over. He did this especially in the caves there. But, I did not think too much about it, I thought it was accidental. When we returned to the ashram (edited for privacy) and I were alone with him for the first time. He began singing songs and shouting “Bhole Shri Satguru Dev Maharaj Ki Jai” a lot. We would sing and cheer with him. After each song or cheer he would hug us. At first it just seemed like we were expressing joy over being premies and the fact that Guru Maharaj Ji, the living perfect master, was here and we were his devotees. But, these hugs evolved into something else. Each time he would hug us, his hands would end up on our breasts or buttocks. I would try to wiggle out of these hugs without being obviously disrespectful to him. I could not believe it was happening. I questioned my own judgment. I thought maybe in India people did not know not to touch these areas, I thought maybe Mahatma Ji was so “pure” that he did not know. But he was trembling each time he touched us. (edited for privacy here too, but this section of the letter makes it clear that I knew of worse incidents of abuse than what happened to me) also told me that the other girls at my knowledge session had experienced some level of molestation from him, as they refused to go near him and called him “nasty”. I was very upset about this and I knew that it had to end. I was certain as to the correct way to end it as well. I had to let Guru Maharaj Ji know. I did not even consider telling my mom, a non-premie, or the police. Not only did I not want to embarrass Guru Maharaj Ji by telling, I also genuinely felt that telling you about this situation was the ultimate way to find justice. I loved and trusted you completely, but you were not terribly accessible to the average premie. I knew Randy Prouty fairly well from his days as a community coordinator in Miami in 1975. I thought highly of him and he had personal access to you. I felt that telling Randy would be the best way to let you know. So, when Randy came to Miami in 1977, I told him what had happened (edited for privacy here but I did make it clear to Randy that there was worse abuse and more victims than just myself). Randy said “You did the right thing to tell me,” and that he would tell you. I trusted Randy, and Guru Maharaj Ji. I felt I had done the right thing. I was very aware that if Jagdeo did this over the span of two years to several children in Miami, that it was likely he did this wherever he went to many children. But I also felt that, in telling Randy, I was giving you the information you needed to stop him. Later, I saw that Jagdeo seemed to be still traveling as an initiator. I even saw him in the entrance to a darshan tunnel. It was very disturbing to see a child molester as one of the people greeting people as they came in. I hoped that maybe you had a guard on him. Now, a few years later, when I thought about what I had seen, Jagdeo in the darshan line tunnel, Jagdeo at festivals, the idea that he had a 24-hour guard seemed ludicrous. I wondered if perhaps Randy had never told you as he said he had. Perhaps, he had downplayed the seriousness of it. One day I was watching a talk show and the topic was child sexual abuse and pedophiles. It was emphasized that these people never get better. Of course, I thought about Jagdeo. At that point, I decided to tell my story again. I knew of Judy Osborne through some premie friends. I was very involved in natural childbirth education and knew Judy was Marolyn’s midwife. I thought perhaps a woman, and a midwife, would understand how serious this was. I do not remember if I called her or wrote her, but somehow I got a message through to her to call me. She did, and I told her the story. I want to emphasize that I did not tell her I had ever told Randy, or anyone, about Jagdeo before. I did this because I wanted the issue presented to you again. I thought maybe with all the publicity about pedophiles, the seriousness of this situation would be recognized. Judy was very respectful and caring. I felt she did understand that this was important. She called me back about a week later and said that she told you, and that you had heard about this before, and was glad it was “not a new incident.“ How did I feel? One thing I felt was guilt for not trusting Randy. Obviously, Randy had indeed relayed my story to you. I said to Judy, “Yes, I had told Randy years ago when it had happened, but I thought he must not have told you as nothing was done that I could tell.” Judy seemed a little annoyed that I had not told her about telling Randy. She said, “Randy is a good guy, of course he would have told Maharaj Ji”. I felt it was out of my hands. I do not know if I considered telling the police at that time. By now, I had two small children, no means of supporting myself, and a husband who worked at DECA. I also still could not imagine why you would not do something about Jagdeo, if only to protect yourself. Frankly, I still do not understand that. Over a decade later, I was remarried and living happily in California. I had not thought much about you or premies for many years. But, when I got online and discovered the wonders of a search engine, I thought, “hmm .whatever happened to the Guru .” and I found “Ex premie org.” When I relayed what had happened regarding Jagdeo, I was quickly put in touch with another victim, Abi. Abi lived in England when she was molested by Jagdeo much worse than I was. My worst fears about him were true; it was one thing to suspect he molested children all over the globe, now I knew it. This was very upsetting to me. Given this background, I’m sure you will understand why I feel insulted by the statement on your website that you have contacted the two victims who refuse to speak to you. To make matters worse, Glen Whitaker’s insulting letter denies that I ever reported this before when indeed I have reported it twice. So why on earth am I writing to you now? Frankly, I have grave doubts that this letter will effect any change whatsoever. But, I do care, very much, that wherever Jagdeo is, children are in danger. I do want to do what is right and I do not trust your organization at all. Frankly, I do not trust you either. I have many bitter feelings; both about how the issue of Jagdeo was handled and about the years I spent worshipping you. Mr. Dettmers, whom I have found to be a very honorable man, states that how the matter of Jagdeo was handled was uncharacteristic of your response to other similar events of sexual misconduct among the Mahatmas. Even as a rank and file 'premie” I had heard stories which support this statement. If there is some possibility that my reporting this again will this time lead to a response which can allow me some closure on this issue, I would welcome that. I would appreciate it if you would kindly acknowledge that you have received and read this letter. Because I have continued wariness and mistrust of your organization, I am hesitant to invite you or your representatives to call or write me directly. If you would contact Mr. Dettmers with your response I would be more comfortable with that. If you have, however, any questions about this matter, which I can answer, I certainly would consider making myself available to answer them. It would be very necessary though, if this were to occur, that I protect myself from further instances of an inability on your organization’s part to remember what I have reported. Sincerely, Susan Haupt Perhaps you might like to ask him about Susan too. It's entirely possible that Dettmers and Haupt are both playing a very, very sinister game here and that they're doing it at the expense of Mr. Prouty. That would be terrible. In fact, I would expect that, at the very least, once he's had a chance to recover from the shock of being falsely implicated like this, Mr. Prouty would want to issue a public statement or something. His name is being seriously sullied otherwise and, seeing as he's not the Lord of the Universe and maybe not even a Leader, as such, I can think of no reason why he'd want to stonewall like this. Anyway, please, if you see Prouty at Amaroo, ask him. Hm?

Subject: Re: Challenge to any premie who knows Prouty From: CPG To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 17:58:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you jim. This is the kind of approach that makes a whole lot of sense to me. We need all the information possible on an issue like this, premies and ex's alike. I don't even know who Prouty is, but there must be someone who knows how to contact him. If these statements regarding him are lies, he should have the courage to stand up and say so. Ignoring specific allegations such as these does not help.

Subject: email for Randy From: Directory Assistance To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:12:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CPG, You might try emailing Randy Prouty at the link provided. But there is very little chance that Randy will answer any of your questions. By the way, Prem Rawat is not exactly a fan of enquiring minds, especially among his faithful. So, what the hey, go for it! I say. World Associates

Subject: World Assoc. From: Opie To: Directory Assistance Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 12:48:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Re World Associates Very interesting link indeed. Had a read of their Form 10KSD. Seems that World Associates is a 'blank check' company endeavouring to be engaged in some very interesting activities. What caught my eye was that on Nov 8th '01 World Associates issued 120k shares to 'Welke Vermoegensverwaltungs' and although it referred to a footnote the actual footnote was not given. 'Vermoegensverwaltungs' means Asset Management in German and often used in Swizerland or Liechtenstein as part of a company name. Recall that these countries often house off-shore funds and where the true identity of ultimate benefiecieries are hard to come by. I found no public record of Welke Ver.... Call me suspicious but how come World Associates are issuing shares to a European asset manager where public disclosure is likely to be very low. Particularly in the light of other shares issued by World Associates where a reasonable level of information is given on why the shares were issued. Might there be some form of connection between Welke Ver... with Prem Pal's offshore assets? Just wondering .... OP

Subject: Re: World Assoc. From: Moll of Mole To: Opie Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 18:17:37 (EDT) Email Address: mollofmole@loveable.com Message: Opie, The guru’s off shore assets (UK house, South American apartment, Australian house, the land content of Amaroo, cash, stock and other paper assets) are held by Myrine Investments based in the Channel Isles. It is a private company and the directors are not pwks nor related to the organization. His guruness has arms length control. Moll of Mole

Subject: Myrine Investments From: Bai Ji To: Moll of Mole Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 19:11:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dearest Moll, I have often searched for Myrine Investment data on the google but have always failed to find anything. How and where did you get Channel Isle info and what did it disclose about Amaroo in particular? Love Bai X

Subject: can you email me? nt From: Moll of Mole To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 23:05:41 (EDT) Email Address: mollofmole@loveable.com Message: gh

Subject: CPG, will you reply to my post below From: Tonette To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 21:12:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's not currently on the loaded message list. You have to click 'view all' in order to be able to access it. Our conversation in the thread started by Jim dated 4/8. Thanks, Tonette

Subject: Here you go CPG! From: Marshall To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 17:49:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're always talking about 'proof' 'hard evidence' etc. Do you know Prouty? Can you contact Prouty? Prouty said he doesn't recall Susan reporting to him about Jagdeo and his little problem. I wonder if he'll recall 'running frantically' to get a houseboy to trade spots with maharaji after a hit and run(nearly), homicide/manslaughter. I have a funny feeling that if it had been me who tragically hit and killed an innocent local on a bicycle with my late model euro sedan, I would still be rotting in a New Dehi prison!

Subject: Holi 2002 From: Manav Dharam To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 14:04:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, premies, once again Holi has been celebrated. But who is that little guy right in the middle!?! Looks like little brother. Naw, can't be. www.manavdharam.org/news/photo_gallery/holi_festival/pages/holi_2.html Holi 2002 Holi photo

Subject: what is 1,00,000 ? From: bill To: Manav Dharam Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 22:37:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Looks like big bro does funny math like his little lord brother premmie rawat. 1,00,000 people were at the lords eldest brothers birthday. No 50. He is STILL wearing the same glasses he did when he was 21. They are a really bad choice. Oh these lords.

Subject: A lakh From: Mike Finch To: bill Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 08:59:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In India, 100,000 is called a lakh, and is often written 1,00,000. When reports of Maharaji's (sorry, PR's) India Gate program in 1970 were written in the west, a common mistake was to translate 'lakh' as 'million' - so that whereas 'tens of lakhs people were there' might have been correct, 'tens of millions' certainly wasn't. -- Mike

Subject: A crore From: Voyeur To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 19:24:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And of course you know that a crore is 10,000,000....when doing business in India I always wrote out the figures to save confusion.

Subject: Old wine, new wineskin....get real prem. From: la-ex To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:14:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So now we have the 'premrawat foundation', which will serve the purpose of bringing the new 'auto-dvd-mahatma mac-vhs-knowledge' to the hungry and thirsty masses of people in the world, who are lost and don't know themselves, but will once they stick their fingers in their eyes and ears and follow their breath while swallowing their tongue....hmmmm....really? Didn't we see this with DLM, DUO, WWA, EV, and now the PR (can't help but smirk at the double entendre there...)Foundation. And we had indian mahatmas, then instructors, then no instructors, then instructors, then videos at community halls, now dvd knowledge sessions etc etc. Prem, when you will wake up and smell the coffee? Premies, when will you wake up and smell the coffee? We've all been there, done that, and it doesn't work. The problem is not with the wineskin, its with the wine....it's sour, and doesn't give you what you've been promised it will....it's not getting you bubbly and high anymore-a hangover is closer to it.... Another facelift will not help the rotting structure of the cult.... What will help is one thing:The truth...the truth about the whole thing, and this is the last thing that your master rawat wants to talk about, or wants you or anyone to know.... It's also the only thing that can help you deconstruct this mess you are in..... Take your pick: 1-follow the master blindly 2-find the truth for yourself Isn't it ironic that in 'Passages', m's latest revisionist history attempt to calm the premie minds, premies claim once again that m did not really say all those things about his own divinity, and than at the end, they play the instrumental version of arti? This is absolutely no different from the early days, when m would say that 'god himself will come to spread the true knowledge'....reasonable people would then ask him if he was talking about himself, and thereby calling himself god.....he would reply that he was 'just a humble servant of god'......and then go off and have the mahatamas instruct the premies on how to sing arti, and go through darshan.... It's the same 'bait and switch', and 'wink and a nod' approach today.... To the public-'No, I never said I was god'... To the premies-(a wink and a nod, implying that they really know who he is, it's just that he can't tell the 'world'...) Great subliminal conditioning with the instrumental arti, but with the epo watchdog service, it's not working too well anymore.... How stupid can rawat get? How much more fear can the premies live under? Old wine. New wineskin. Doesn't work.

Subject: Re: Old wine, new wineskin....get real prem. From: To la-ex To: la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:56:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You have to admit, though, that the new PR Foundation has gotten off to a great start. Promoting the Knowledge of all Knowledges in a magazine for CEO's is a such a novel approach. Got to give the guy credit for originality. I mean, what other Perfect Master has thought of this type of approach? There's all kinds of parallels between the concerns of CEO's and the concerns of practicing Knowledge. Let's see, for one, there's..., uh, success, yes, success in enjoying life. Maybe some premie in Israel will forward a copy to Sharon and Arafat. Maybe Rawat should go to Israel himself, him being the Master with the true secret for peace and happiness and all. I do have just one little doubt, though, (shame on me), didn't Maharaji say he wasn't a leader? Seriously, one thing that Prem Rawat doesn't have is any real respect in the world. The only respect he gets is from his own small group of sycophants who he has has very little regard for. I really think Rawat would be more happy if he were the head of a world-class business venture. But hey, once those other 220 leaders get a glimpse of what Rawat is really like, he will become a laughing stock. This is a serious miscalculation on his part. He's trying to enter a world that will definitely reject him entirely.

Subject: I'll say it's a miscalculation From: gerry To: To la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 13:20:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now that Rev. Rawat has chosen to take this debate into the public arena with the very public mass mailing of his propaganda, I no longer feel any moral compunction against taking our (my) argument AGAINST Rawat Inc. public, with some mailed information dissemination of my own. And I have some very clever ideas for 'propagation' that Mr RawRat might not like. He should have stayed hidden in his Rat Hole

Subject: Prem Rawat is the real looser(sic)hahaha From: Marshall To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 13:24:50 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: How will this saga end folks? Stay tuned!

Subject: Harry, you make me mad From: Will To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 10:44:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Damn, Harry, I can't stand it when people do what you've done in your post called 'A few facts' from yesterday, now far below. I don't know how often we are going to have to hash out this Jagdeo business, but people like you keep obscuring the known facts. You insist that neither Maharaji nor any of the people in 'organizational positions of authority' were informed about Jagdeo and that nothing was known until 20 years later when EPO published the story. We KNOW that what you claim is entirely wrong. Abi's father told Charnanand in 1985. You know what Charnanand's position was (and is). You claim that nobody you know of knew anthing about this. Well, la de da!!!! This website has been visited by several people who DID know and were told to never let Jagdeo out of their sight. You say that you worked quite a bit with Jagdeo in the 70's and early 80's. Well so did I. I had the unpleasant experience of listening to him tell cosmic stories in the middle of the night about how Guru Maharaj Ji appeared to him in astral form. I received Knowledge from the jerk - supposedly God's grace to me coming through the lotus feet of Guru Maharaj Ji. But the point to remember here is that Abi kept the story secret from her own father until 1985, well after the 70's and 'early 80's' that you were involved. We can't go on YOUR experience. What you claim to be 'a few facts' are just your very limited personal perceptions. You also claim that Jagdeo had no special status. Totally incorrect. As late as two years ago he was living the life of Riley in the Delhi ashram, waited upon hand and foot. How many instructors have been treated as well as Jagdeo throughout all these years? Only a very, very small number. I do not doubt that Judy Osborne is a nice person, but she obviously did not treat the situation with Susan the way she should have. No question that she should have done more, much more, herself. You also claim that 'any instructor who engaged in inappropriate behavior of any kind were relieved of their duties before a single follicle could grow back on their shaven heads. This is a fact.' Hardly! It's a farce. What about Padarthanand? He's still a top associate, despite the fact that he has engaged in plenty of sexual 'inappropriateness.' What about Fakiranand? The whole lot of them are very imperfect people. You whimper about never getting a fair hearing here. What a pansy! Go ahead. We are all willing to hear what you have to say. Just don't post some absolute nonsense and then disappear without anybody ever knowing who you really are. For heaven's sake, if you have some points to make about the bullshit that has been published here, please be SPECIFIC. Where's the bullshit among the 14 objections? Tell us! Go ahead! We will gladly retract anything that is incorrect. The basic problem that a devoted premie has in thinking about all of this stuff is that they have already come to a conclusion, that Maharaji is their Perfect Master, and so their minds attempt to color all the information to correspond with the painting already estabished as a given. Any colors that come along that might mess up that nice picture, they try to change the color to adapt. But the mind must be free to paint the colors bold, in the true color, in the hue and tone and value of reality. This is why premies will fight to the last minute to try to claim that Prem Pal knew nothing about the crimes of Jagdeo until 1999. Because that particular color really makes a Dorian Gray of their whole belief system. Finally, Harry, you say that you would like to see Jagdeo tried for his crimes. Ha! Do you think Mr. Prem Rawat would like to see such a trial happen? No way. That is the last thing that he wants.

Subject: Re: Harry, you make me mad From: CPG To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 14:45:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i for one was shocked but pleased to read harry's post.-excuse my broken shift key please-. shocked because its the first non-ex post i have seen here...pleased to get more input. even more pleased that a non-ex...i assume...would say what they believe to be true. this is a first for me personally...maybe happened before i came on here. while i agree with marianne to an extent, the most important thing for me personally is when did m know about jagdeo and what did he do about it. if he knew early on and kept him on with inadequate protection this was very wrong. id have to agree that putting myself in m's shoes, even if he didnt know until '99, if what i read is true i would feel some responsibility since someone more or less in his employ committed these acts. is there any direct info about what m said to abis father/ has he posted on here/ from my perspective you are all words on a page...i can feel the human beings behind, but i wouldnt blindly trust any of you, including harry. i am going to go back and reread jagdeo info before i say much more, less i be trashed for missing something. this is very very important to me, thats why i keep pushing for more info. i have spent 21 years with this man-you all know how that feels. to me this isnt a rehash...as much as many of you believe all that is written about this issue there is very little documentation, and a lot of opinions. here is my suggestion; harry- if you really care, hang in here with us. can you document your friends interview of those 40 people and post their names, with his and hopefully your own. many have reported jagdeo being covered by people...does anyone have names of any of his watchers and can they provide statements, especially as to who instructed them to do so. can the letter from charanand to abis father from '85 be scanned and posted on epo...this would be solid proof the char knew and at the very least condemn him for his inaction. i know to many of you this kind of evidence seems unneccessary. to me it is the only way to resolve conflicting reports. much thanks to all who take the time to respond.

Subject: Back to you, CPG From: Will To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 15:18:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, California Premie Guy. I understand your need for information, but we will not be able to try the whole case here and collect all the witnesses. There are many people who do not want to come forward, including Charnanand and most of those 40 people, I would imagine. The letter that Charnanand wrote in 1985 was directly to Abi, not to Abi's father. Abi has told us that she threw the letter away, and that she now regrets having done so. At that time, she had no intention of being public or legal about this incident. But it would be mighty interesting at this point, wouldn't it!!! I think Abi told us that mostly the letter was about trusting in Maharaji as her true father. As far as a trial ever happening and the question of Jagdeo's current whereabouts, I myself can only assume that Prem Rawat considers it in his own best interests that Jagdeo be hidden away and never come to justice. I am convinced of two things: (1)a trial would implicate many people close to Maharaji and a jury in the West would have no trouble understanding the dynamics of a personality cult and would be able to see through any claims that Prem Rawat was entirely unaware of the situation, and (2)if Rawat did want Jagdeo to be found, he would have all kinds of devoted students out there looking for him and they would find him quickly. But I suggest that there is no such search going on by the Prem Rawat Foundation. They are looking for Jagdeo just as much as OJ is looking for Nicole's and Ron's real killers. (A very direct parallel here is what the Catholic Church did for years with their pedophiles - namely, allowed them even more access). Perhaps, (dare I say it), this is a matter that we inform ourselves about through our intelligent view of the available evidence, but also with our hearts. It's a pretty easy call, for me, on either front.

Subject: Re: Back to you, CPG From: CPG To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 19:24:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Its not an easy call for me however. Not about Jagdeo; it seems clear there is enough to at least indict him, and i hope this has been done as harry reported. But if M knew about, didn't take adequate measures, and either looked the other way or protected him. Why can't we assemble whatever documention there is here, and reach out to those who might know something to get statements? Anyone from either bias who really wants to know the truth would welcome that. Without it we are all making judgements and convictions of m. rawat based on very few second and third hand , non conclusive observations and conjecture. Where else in anyones world would this be appropriate/. enough to be conerned, yes, but not enough to conclude. The facts simply aren't uncovered. Strong opinions, yes. Like it or not, believe them or not, but there are alternate explainations. i loved jims call for a statement from Prouty, for example. Why not pursue all avenues of more information, even if you already detest the guy/. for those that do detest him, getting solid information on this could ruin him.

Subject: Re: Back to you, CPG From: gerry To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 20:34:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Once other victims of Jagdeo hear there are other victims talking about what happened to them as children, I believe these victims too will find the strength to speak out. Numerous studies show how damaging these childhood rapes are and I can only imagine how difficult it must be for the victims. We have to get the word out, I agree. Do you have any ideas how you can contact other victims? Anyone knowledgable about pedophiles know that the victim numbers typically range into the hundreds and Jagdeo had access to children for years and years. How about it CPG, are you willing to ask around in your community? These victims deserve recognition, an apology and reparations. Surely you can't deny that???

Subject: The evidence is solid From: gerry To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 15:18:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We have rape victims telling us first hand what Jagdeo did to them. What more do you want? And Rawat was told about this decades ago. Of course he was! How absurd to think the Captain didn't know about this. But he chose to ignore it, hoping it would go away, just like the catholic church chose to do. Case closed. You've been duped and if you continue to support Rawat, you are as corrupt as he is.

Subject: Re: The evidence is solid From: Neville To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 19:47:16 (EDT) Email Address: nrbarnes@btopenworld.com Message: Hey guys, let's give CPG a break here. He's got a lot to take on board. If he finds we're right then he's heading straight into major disillusionment--remember what that feels like? It sounds to me like he'd doing his best. Let's cut him a little slack. Neville

Subject: YOU ARE TALKING TO THE ALL POWERFUL OZ From: gerry To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 20:02:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey guys, let's give CPG a break here. He's got a lot to take on board. If he finds we're right then he's heading straight into major disillusionment--remember what that feels like? It sounds to me like he'd doing his best. Let's cut him a little slack. Neville --- Neville, Yes, I'll go easy on him and try not to make him sputter too hard. But please, it's my style, my character, my, my public image that's at stake here. You aren't asking me to sacrifice that are you?

Subject: Re: YOU ARE TALKING TO THE ALL POWERFUL OZ From: Neville To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 06:32:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee, Gerry, if I didn't care about individuality I'd still be a premie. Be yourself, by all means. Neville

Subject: Re: The evidence is solid From: CPG To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 19:31:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah, the 'either you believe me or you are one of them' argument. i don't buy anyones party line, including yours; i think for myself. Excuse me, but thats crap, and would you ever accept your illogic about anyone you cared about/. no one is arguing that jagdeo shouldn't be tried. But to implicate Rawat because ' how could he not have known' is like something from a backwards medieval kangeroo court. I'd be in prison along with half of my generation if thats all it took to get at the 'truth'.

Subject: Cpg, what about... From: Marshall To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:12:37 (EDT) Email Address: none Message:

Subject: Re: The evidence is solid From: gerry To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 19:54:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah, the 'either you believe me or you are one of them' argument. i don't buy anyones party line, including yours; i think for myself. Excuse me, but thats crap, and would you ever accept your illogic about anyone you cared about/. no one is arguing that jagdeo shouldn't be tried. But to implicate Rawat because ' how could he not have known' is like something from a backwards medieval kangeroo court. I'd be in prison along with half of my generation if thats all it took to get at the 'truth'. --- I don't have to 'implicate Rawat' for anything because I believe that as we continue to talk about this Jagdeo case and it becomes more widely known, more witnesses WILL appear and the lawsuits will begin. I believe the person ultimately resposible in this case will indeed be Prem Rawat and it will of course, be Prem Rawat who eventually pays damages. So naturally, the outcome of all this falls on Rawat, even if he says he didn't know about the abuse, which I think is a lie, btw. These are just my opinions and I love it when you pwsk's get all goosey like that.

Subject: Brilliant comparison! From: cq To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 13:48:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dorian Gray - whose portrait hid all his hideous hidden traits, while the man himself appeared to others as the epitome of all that was good. Was the artist a premie? stfrancisprep.org/departments/english/images/dorian.jpg

Subject: PS the artist a premie??? I'm losing it! (nt) From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 13:59:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PS the artist a premie??? I'm losing it! (nt)

Subject: Answer Harry ,or be invalidated! From: Marshall To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:58:25 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Yes I agree 100% with you Will. Harry, Answer the questions Put forth in the huge CPG thread below or retract your lies, or hopefully both. At least respond to this thread, or if not, then you have proved that you are nothing more than a revising, lying impotent, apologist for Prem Rawat, and no one should, or will ever take you seriously in any of your anonymous disguises again, if they ever did. How can someone so callous and uncaring of fellow humans can even exist is beyond me. I was talking about 'Harry' there, but I realised Prem Rawat has Harry beat by a country mile at being callous and uncaring.

Subject: What, is my parking up? From: Harry To: Marshall Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 19:26:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Answered below, Will, and they are not lies. They're just not what you want to hear. It's no wonder that lots of people who could shed light on some of these things take one look at this place, roll their eyes and split. Sorry, but it's true. At the very least, I'm taking a little time and offering my observations. The readers can decide if I know what I'm talking about. Take it or leave it. Try lowering your adrenaline level a little bit and read it again. If you're too blinded by your current crusade to see any other perspectives, I can't help that. I've read and listened openly to this shit over a few years and occasionally, I feel like I should say something. The idea that charges, however wild, that go unanswered achieve the status of reality is pretty ridiculous. As far as not responding as quickly as you'd like, I don't have the time or inclination to sit endlessly in a chat room dedicated to slamming someone I know and love, hitting the reload button. If anyone's at least willing to give a fair listen, fine. If not, I hate wasting my time. I'm sure you do, too. Harry, on behalf of Impotent, Callous, Uncaring Apologists for Truth, Perspective & Fairness

Subject: harry, before you go... From: gerry To: Harry Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 20:13:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can you tell me which of the 'charges' we ex-premies make that have reached 'wild' status? I don't want people to roll their eyes and split. I want them to stay here and chat. Many people with knowledge, after a careful reading of the evidence have come to the difficult and heart-wrenching conclusion that Rawat is indeed a fraud. You come at your own pace of course, but what about those 'wild charges?' Can you be more specific?

Subject: Rawat's responsibility TODAY From: Marianne To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:55:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very well said, Will. Harry, why isn't Rawat doing something today to compensate Abi? All she and her father have gotten from Captain Rawat, Valerio Pascotto, and others is the run around. He knows now the enormity of the abuse she suffered. Why isn't he compensating her for it? And you Brad Griffin, director of the new foundation. The Brad I knew was a very decent and caring person. Why aren't you seeing that Abi is taken care of? I cannot believe that the person I knew way back when would be other than boiling mad about this having happened to a young child. You are now in a position to do something about it -- something meaningful. You were compensated when you nearly lost your life. Well Abi's situation is no different. She's struggled to survive in the face of horrific abuse perpetrated by someone she and her family trusted. All she's gotten is the collective back of the hand since she and her father went directly to Rawat about it. Please do something about this. Marianne Bachers San Francisco, California

Subject: Re: Rawat's responsibility TODAY From: Marshall To: Marianne Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:57:44 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Exactly! Perfect, Marianne. Perfect.

Subject: PROPAGATION From: AV To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 04:06:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anybody know about what is REALLY happening with propagation these days? I see things here about DVDs etc. but as I cannot see any evidence of even loosely structured premie communities where videos etc. used to take place, I wondered how any momentum is generated? Are there still functioning video and tape libraries? How do people 'get into the loop' if there are no instructor visits / selections. I mean, if someone new came along to see M,where would they go? apart from the internet that is? Where is the human link in the chain?

Subject: and the importance of Lila From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:06:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Once we accepted the idea of lila, all changes could easily be explained. This concept was an important concept in a religion that was not a religion that outwardly(though supposedly inwardly) freed us of our concepts. If you get my drift. 'it's not in the words' was another very important concept for us to accept. This allowed THE SPEAKER to tell us the earth was flat one day and round the next and easily covered up the fact that he didn't have a clue really. Sometimes now, it seems that Mr. Rawat was just running a marketing program called 'Start your own Cult' and lila was an integral part. Many of the anti-cult websites reveal this marketing program under characteristics of a cult, who is vulnerable to a cult, etc.

Subject: Re: PROPAGATION From: Bai Ji To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 04:54:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Welcome to the Forum AV, I have read your recent entries with interest. Are you an ex PAM? Your insightful, finger on the pulse views would intimate that you have/had direct immersion in the world of 'Servicio' Well enough to make you intelligently bitter and cynical. Re: Propagation? Video Library Home delivery is now fully available to all. For a small nominal fee ,(which I might add does only cover mailing costs in my community) It's still basically up to the die hard Go-pee's to do the do. 'But only if you want to' Which is the clause to remove all responsibility from the Heirachy and place it firmly where it belongs , on the Victims..errr I mean devotee. I myself, (redundant) am freshly RAW and in the Ex Preemie nursery taking all the self indulgent nursing I can get. (Read pretty fucked up) I have lots of love and support her though. Hi guys, I hope to be back on line soon. I think of you all often. Hope you're all OK too. Hey Cynth and Livia. XXXX Bai Ji

Subject: Re: PROPAGATION From: Livia To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:08:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bai Ji Glad you're still hanging on in there - hope all's as well as can be expected if not totally better yet!! Will email you v soon Lots of love, Livia XX

Subject: To:Bai Ji From: AV To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:36:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanx B Bitter and cynical?? really?? I was hoping to be dispassionate, oh well, guess if it's there, better out than in....from my perspective , I feel sad, raw, and have this weird spaced feeling in my head, and get upset easily. I accept the term 'premie' in its literal sense, as a lover of truth, of all that is essentially good and wholesome; thus I will always be a premie. However there is the Question ( and a pretty big question ) of the blind acceptance of everything M says or does to be 'of the TRUTH'. It would be wonderful to think (as many did) that there is a person in the world who is a constant well of inspiration and true guide toward the eternal in whom we can take shelter and direction. If that we so , how extraordinary, how amazing!! But there are stories of damaged lives and wounded hearts, financial excesses, that seem to become more profligate by the day, and until I see or read something that addresses this in a simple straighforward, human way, then the bold-underlined question mark will remain stamped on my head. I read Glen's internal memo to Ros, and it seemed more a case of how can we get some diversionary tactics and damage limitation in place, than attending to the casualties. In the light of all this, current words of truth from the master have a decidedly hollow ring, even if you are lucky enough to glean any sense from them, which I have to say I can't. This is a great sadness, because I used to be so inspired/uplifted, but the teamwork posting (for example),left me feeling that I'd been listening to a random word generator...were it not so, my friend, were it not so.

Subject: Sad Raw Spaced and Upset.. From: Bai Ji To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 16:30:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanx B Bitter and cynical?? really?? I was hoping to be dispassionate, oh well, guess if it's there, better out than in....from my perspective , I feel sad, raw, and have this weird spaced feeling in my head, and get upset easily. I accept the term 'premie' in its literal sense, as a lover of truth, of all that is essentially good and wholesome; thus I will always be a premie. However there is the Question ( and a pretty big question ) of the blind acceptance of everything M says or does to be 'of the TRUTH'. It would be wonderful to think (as many did) that there is a person in the world who is a constant well of inspiration and true guide toward the eternal in whom we can take shelter and direction. If that we so , how extraordinary, how amazing!! But there are stories of damaged lives and wounded hearts, financial excesses, that seem to become more profligate by the day, and until I see or read something that addresses this in a simple straighforward, human way, then the bold-underlined question mark will remain stamped on my head. I read Glen's internal memo to Ros, and it seemed more a case of how can we get some diversionary tactics and damage limitation in place, than attending to the casualties. In the light of all this, current words of truth from the master have a decidedly hollow ring, even if you are lucky enough to glean any sense from them, which I have to say I can't. This is a great sadness, because I used to be so inspired/uplifted, but the teamwork posting (for example),left me feeling that I'd been listening to a random word generator...were it not so, my friend, were it not so. --- Are you my long lost brother? No Seriously... It Hurts doesn't it? I concur with all you have said. Recently I have discovered how blazingly ANGRY I am. I thankfully have most of these revelations in the privacy of my own company. Screaming obscenities at inanimate objects that won't commit to lying on flat surfaces and such. Scare myself honestly.... But I recognize the displacement and just try and go with it for now. No choice relly. I am not an angry aggressive personality type normally, well not to my knowledge, I have been deluded before though. Yeah, a few Fucking Answers would be nice and maybe an APOLOGY for LYING to us about taking us across the Ocean of Maya in HIS Boat, was that what Serenity is for? Never got an invite to sail on that one though. Good to read you and Lots of Love Bai XXX

Subject: To Bai Ji From: AV To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 06:34:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Long lost brother?? Dunno....but a thought with warm feelings is always welcomed with open arms down here in hobo flats! Adding to Tonette's post below, I bought a mountain bike, ride and cry in the countryside, laugh and scream out loud occaisionally.. not at M, funnily enuff, just to get these buried feelings out. Don't know what I feel about M, just go sorta blank... BTW, God ain't gone, Nature ain't gone, people who love you just as you are ain't gone, what can I say....healing is real and it lasts forever. AV, with warm thoughts to you.

Subject: Mind-Body Connection From: Tonette To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:37:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Bai, Let's face it M did nothing to us physically. It's the psychological and spiritual rape that he's guilty of. The lies and the deceit. The mind fuck. That is a bitter pill to have swallowed and far harder to recover from that letting your body mend a broken bone. At this point, would an apology really mend this injury? 'Oh gee guys, I'm so sorry.' Did a 'sorry' help mend Abi when she got one? Nope and for me it is all too late for that. Besides why would I believe it? Coming from Maharaji? Would you? The anger is good. Screaming at inaminate objects yes. Try throwing something. Get a few old pictures of M and make a dart board! The mind body connection is one of the least understood sciences. But I think there is an avenue to heal the mind through the body. I'm not talking meditation. And this is something I know a little about but not enough to steer you down the right avenue. If you have the inclination and resources I would try accupuncture. Massage with reflexology. Some yoga and sweat your buns off exercise. I hope you don't think me a flake for suggesting these things but anything that accelerates vomiting M and his influence out of your system can not be a bad thing. Of course you'll never forget the lesson we have all learned. I hope this helps and you know you are not alone. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: Thanks Tonette and AV, Good Advice (nt) From: Bai Ji To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 17:03:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Premies profiled in LEADERS article From: Inside Edition To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 23:27:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A friend of mine received his copy of LEADERS today. His report: The current 202 page issue of LEADERS table of contents lists 35 interviews with (primarily) corporate leaders (none of which has ANY author) as well as a list of six (what sure appear to be paid) 'special reports' on EDS, Ernst & Young, Active International, Chubb, ADC and Prem Rawat Foundation. Six people associated with self-knowledge are profiled in this eight page spread: 1. Richard Cooper, senior vice president - Grubb & Ellis Co. (global real estate services). Involved since 1971. 2. Neil Evans, exec. director - National Workforce Center for Emerging Technologies. (Microsoft CIO - '83 - '94). Involved since 1974. 3.Marcus L. Munger, PhD - senior scientist - R&D - Lockheed Martin. Involved since 1972. 4. Dr. Sandy Hewitt - director - Business Excellence, Rolls Royce. Involved since 1975. 5. Lauren Evers - CEO - Intellikey Labs - DVD testing. Involved since 1997. 6. Dr. Giulio Cossu - director - Stem Cell Research Institute, Milan. Involved 'only recently'. Rawat's interview says NOTHING. Example: HOW DOES THE PREM RAWAT FOUNDATION OPERATE? Our focus is not really on the organization itself as much as on what we do. The organization is a tool that is flexible enough to change with the needs of the times. What we do is greater than the sum of all the elements of the organization, and this approach has to be maintained. A lot of young people are now participating, and it's wonderful to see the wide spectrum of people involved in the work, the old mixing with the young. How about: HOW IMPORTANT IS IT FOR YOU TO MAINTAIN A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PERSONS TO WHOM YOU SHOW THE TECHNIQUES OF SELF-KNOWLEDGE? Well, it's up to the people involved. If they want to pursue the relationship, they can. It's up to them. My favorite, the end-quote: FINALLY, WHAT IS YOUR OWN PERSONAL MEASURE OF SUCCESS? If I can keep satisfying my passion (his 'work'), that is success for me.

Subject: in case you missed prev.post From: Kerry To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 01:44:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: TPRF carries a sample of the article - cites the interviewer as David Schner (Leaders president). I thought it interesting but probably coincidental that John W. Teets who is the International Chairman of Leaders has a Gulf IV - isn't that the type of plane M. has?

Subject: Re: in case you missed prev.post From: He'll meditate on it To: Quiet`s mate Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:20:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Mitch's journey and white pages entry From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 18:01:13 (EDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: Mitch's journey is here, and the White Pages are here. Maharaji is either the real thing or full of sh..... I agree. John.

Subject: John, could you please change my email? From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 20:29:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just realized that that old, old one's up. The current email is: jimheller@shaw.ca When you get a chance. Thanks, Jim

Subject: Done [nt] From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 18:26:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thanks ...and a suggestion From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 20:12:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, I was thinking, perhaps 'premie house or ashram' is too restrictive for the white pages. Many lived in neither. Wouldn't 'community' do the trick better?

Subject: Prem Rawat coming to London ???! From: Opie To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 17:19:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look what just arrived in my inbox! It seems that the dear London Pwks have sent in an invitation to Prem Rawat to come to London and, it would appear, that Mr Tawar may even Grace the London PWKS. Elan Vital are saying 'The afternoon at LSE Bankside will be a chance to see how we might help support such an event.' I guess they mean free labor and lots of money contributions. It will be very interesting to see what 'spin' is put on the recent makeover that Prem wishes the pwks to believe. I am very tempted to attend for old time sake - anyone care to join me? Liv? london area email: april 2002 A day of inspiration and information You are invited to attend an afternoon event on Sunday 28th April from 2pm-5pm at LSE Bankside, 24 Sumner Street, London SE1 (very near Tate Modern). You may know that Maharaji has been invited to London to do an event this summer where we would have the opportunity to invite guests. This would be a London (or London and Southeast England) event and not a national project. The afternoon at LSE Bankside will be a chance to see how we might help support such an event. Of course there will be videos, etc as well.

Subject: Look, this is important... From: Neville To: Opie Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:08:32 (EDT) Email Address: nrbarnes@btopenworld.com Message: ...because M's strategy is one of rebranding. We need to know what the current party line is, or we wind up fighting yesterday's battle. (This is what premies constantly contend about us.)I don't think I can get to London, but someone should find out what the mood is now in DLM aka EV aka PRF. (Apart from the galloping self-delusion, which we already know about.) Neville

Subject: Re: Look, this is important... From: Opie To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:25:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Apart from the galloping self-delusion, which we already know about. Pictures of wild but tamed horses come to mind! LOL yes I agree it is v. important - lets see if I have the stamina to sit through 3 hours of devotional vids and cultspeak. Diary permitting. OP

Subject: Re: Look, this is important... From: Neville To: Opie Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 08:05:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good grief! Three hours? I was contemplating some spiritual espionage but the thought of all that cr*p again is definitely scary. Do your worst Evil Dr M, torture me if you must, but please, no more bloody satsang. I guess I'm not cut out to be a spy... Neville

Subject: The London Latvian Mafia From: JHB To: Opie Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 17:51:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We will be there, at least in spirit. When we moved to London from Leeds in 1980, we were still dedicated and tried to find service and a community in London, but it never happened. After my marriage broke up in 1991, I renewed my dedication, but there were only video events and the regular Yoram Weiss 'give us your money' events. Attending a preparatory meeting for a tprf leader event sounds like the motivation I and the London Latvian mafia need. John the preparing my ieroci:-)

Subject: Re: The London Latvian Mafia From: Bolly Shri To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:16:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh! gosh Oh! golly, bliss and stuff, Oh! dear will I be able to attend and see the lard. You see guys I'm not sure I'm a PWK, I only got the ultimate experience in 1972, which I practised with a degree of diligence on and off for years. In the 1990s there was a knees up in Nottingham, and the devotees told me our main man was giving k reviews, and that we had to do this review I think there was an upgrading of techniques, like how to really close your mind and and open up your bank account to a universe of bullshit. Anyway the long and the short of it is as I only have bog standard ultimate truth and not new improved k with crunchy bits and extra vitamin k plus am I a true PWK? Am I maybe a retro PWK, like a reliant robin or something? Remember when K was a simple thing, and all you had to do was talk bollocvks? Love to all

Subject: Re: The London Latvian Mafia From: Op To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:50:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bolly Shri Am I maybe a retro PWK, like a reliant robin or something? Nope, you were always a Rolls Royce - Rawat, for his own ends, damaged the goods on the way. We are all now undergoing a vintage restoration job - and it feels real good! Re: Knowledge Reviews. I think that one main reason that these were given so actively was the potential legal considerations Rawat felt there was in showing old style light technique and the damage this may cause to eyeballs. This was changed at some point involving less pressure on the eyeballs. Funny how little explanation was given why the old style was no longer de rigour. Bests Op

Subject: Re: The London Latvian Mafia From: Livia To: Op Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:12:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gulp - were there threats of legal action, then, because the early light technique was potentially damaging? Love, Liv

Subject: Eyes From: Op To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:35:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For the life of me I seem to remember seeing some references to this somewhere. Had a quick look on EPO but could not find any references. It may have been somewhere else. Will look for it again later unless someone else can come up with the link. Don't think there were any actual threats of legal action, just maybe the possibility. Love, OP

Subject: Re: Eyes From: PatD To: Op Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 14:43:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I posted something about this ages ago,having remembered a skit on a BBC world service radio show I (partially) heard once. It seemed to be suggesting that pressing eyeballs was potentially dangerous according to some report. The exact line I remember was this(in a gormless dope head accent) ' yeah man, yeah, I can see the light...must be going blind'. I tried various places to find out more but failed. I think the show was called '2 cheers for February'; it was monthly, the name changing accordingly,& was satirical, based on whatever had been in the news the previous month.

Subject: IEROCI? From: Opie To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 04:47:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: JHB ieroci? International Event Reception - Outside Counsel Included? Nope you got me stumped! Cheers Opie PS BM nearly done.

Subject: IEROCI? - It's Latvian:-) [nt] From: JHB To: Opie Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 10:32:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: IEROCI? - It's Latvian:-) From: OP To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:30:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John Don't think you need any selaha or even tillhygge - ya just gotta be in dat place man.:) OP Ps - Swahili / Swedish this time.

Subject: Re: Prem Rawat coming to London ???! From: Livia To: Opie Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 17:44:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yup, having not been to see him since about 1997 I would be quite curious to see what he and the whole thing is like now. If it's on a date I can make it, I may well go. Anyone else interested? God, this is ironic. The whole place will soon be filling up with exes instead of premies. Or the premies will all have turned into exes. Whatever. However you look at it, it becomes more farcical by the moment. It could be fun to go together, all us Brits on Forum 7. Love, Liv

Subject: Re: Prem Rawat coming to London ???! From: Bolly Shri To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:23:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sure if they@ll let me in and the date fits with my schedule

Subject: To LIV Re: Prem Rawat coming to London ???! From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 19:13:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: could be interesting Liv, specially after being clued in re EPO etc. just to sit and listen as a 'regular guy' and try and figure out what the message of the moment is.......be dead funny if it's all the exes that are wearing the big smiles tho'!!!!

Subject: Darshan line count From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 15:45:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was reading a thread below about darshan lines and the envelopes that used to be handed out, and was recalling that at one festival I was given the service of counting every single person that went through the darshan line. I was given a little clicker thing for the purpose. Does anybody know why this counting went on? Was it because Maharaji just wanted to know the exact headcount as a way of taking stock? Or, and now I really am getting cynical, could it have been so they/he could work out how much the average premie was donating into those white envelopes? Just wondering. Love, Livia

Subject: Statistics/Money From: Observer To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 16:14:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji has always had an anal obsession with statistics. So, your boring 'service' to count those going to the darshan line was probably because Maharaji wanted to know. It inflated his ego if the numbers grew. Now, with numbers shrinking, he requires strange counting gimicks to make the numbers look larger (-- there are reports of how counts are to be made of those attending video events in the most convoluted fashions, which results in counting the same person several times), etc. that fill no other purpose. In the late 70s and early 80s, Maharaji often netted up to $(US) 250,000 for a few hours work having his feet kissed. By that time, Maharaji made it known he wanted cash and no more other 'gifts' which were useless to him, not that he gave them away, he just got warehouses in which to store them.

Subject: Re: Statistics/Money From: Livia To: Observer Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 16:54:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks. Incidentally, the programme I was referring to was in 1978, the era in which you say he was netting $250,000. Amazing, really, to think it was as much as that. $250,000 was a lot of money in those days. Out of interest, do you know what happened to all the stuff that was stored in warehouses? If there were toys (for his children, perhaps?) why on earth were they not given to needy children I wonder? But then of course, no cause was ever considered as having any worth if it wasn't.....need I go on. Love, Livia

Subject: Some thoughts for Dep, and others ... From: cq 'GNOTHI SEAUTON' To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 15:06:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This injunction was carved into the lintel at the Temple of Apollo at Delphi: 'GNOTHI SEAUTON' 'Know Thyself'. The Oracle at Delphi, known as the 'Pythia', once declared Socrates the wisest man on earth. This because he was famed for declaring that he knew nothing. The four techniques of meditation that Rawat has mixed and matched are a poor substitute for true self-knowledge, and his arrogance at claiming to be a 'leader in the field of self-knowledge' marks him out as the opportunist charlatan he is. No doubt people will learn something from coming into contact with him, though. Learn not to surrender to charlatans, at least. 'We must dispell our glamours'. - excerpts from Djwhal Khul/Alice Bailey books Here are the names of some glamours: 1. The Glamour of Destiny. This is a glamour which indicates to the one whom it controls, that he has important work to do, and he must speak and work as destined. This feeds a pride which has no foundation in fact. 2. The Glamour of Aspiration. Those thus conditioned are completely satisfied and preoccupied with their aspiration towards the light and rest back on the fact that they are aspirants. Such people should move on to the Path of Discipleship and cease their preoccupation and satisfaction with their spiritual ambitions and goals. 3. The Glamour of Self Assurance. This is the belief that the disciple regards that his point of view is entirely right. This again feeds pride and tends to make the disciple believe himself an authority and infallible. This is the background of the theologian. 4. The Glamour of Duty. This leads to an over emphasis on if the sense of responsibility, producing lost motion and the emphasis on the non-essential. 5. The Glamour of Environmental Conditions. Leading frequently to a sense of frustration, or futility of importance. 6. The Glamour of the Mind and of it's efficiency and it's capacity to deal with any or every problem. This leads inevitably to isolation and loneliness. 7. The Glamour of Devotion. The man or woman thus glamoured sees only one idea, one person, one authority and one aspect of the truth. It feed fanaticism and spiritual pride 8. The Glamour of Desire with it's reflex action on the physical body. This leads to constant fighting and turmoil. It negates all peace and fruitful work and must some day be brought to an end. 9. The Glamour of Personal Ambition. There are many other glamours, both individual and worldwide, but these will serve to indicate a general tendency . A deep distrust of one's reactions to life and circumstances, when such reactions awaken and call forth criticism, separativeness and pride, is of value. These qualities are definitely breeders of glamour. They are occultly “the glamorous characteristics”. Ponder on this. If a man can free himself from these characteristics, he is well on the way to the relinquishing and dissipation of all glamour. I am choosing my words with care in an effort to arrest your attention. www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/image?lookup=Perseus:image:1990.36.0049&image=1

Subject: Of editing. From: I took the liberty To: cq 'GNOTHI SEAUTON' Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 18:47:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you are not offended, but I loved your ideas. FOR THOSE ON A SPIRITUAL PATH The Glamour of Destiny. One believes (s)he has important work to do, and must speak and work as destined. This pride has no foundation in fact. The Glamour of Aspiration. One is satisfied and preoccupied with aspiration towards the light and prefers to remain an aspirant. Move onward to the Path of Discipleship and relinquish spiritual ambitions and goals. The Glamour of Self-Assurance. One believes that his/her religious point of view is entirely correct. This feeds pride and causes the individual to believe him/herself to be an infallible authority. This is the background of the theologian. The Glamour of Duty. This leads to an over-emphasis of the sense of responsibility, producing lost motion and the emphasis on the non-essential. The Glamour of Environmental Conditions. This leads to a sense of frustration or futility of importance. The Glamour of the Mind. One believes that his/her intellect has the capacity to deal with any or every problem. This leads inevitably to isolation and loneliness. The Glamour of Devotion. One sees only one idea, one person, one authority and one aspect of the truth. It feeds fanaticism and spiritual pride. The Glamour of Desire. One experiences a physical reflex reaction that leads to constant fighting and turmoil both internally and externally. It negates all peace of mind and fruitful work. The Glamour of Personal Ambition. The ambitious one leaves a terrible wake. Consider the world's leaders and the havoc they create. There are many glamours on many levels and they are fueled by separateness and pride. Under their influence, one may mistrust personal reactions to life and circumstances, when these reactions awaken self-criticism and evaluation. If one can relinquishing his/her glamours, (s)he is well on the way to a happier existence.

Subject: Well, there's liberty for you From: cq To: I took the liberty Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:39:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, there's liberty for you. But they're not my ideas. They're excerpts from Djwhal Khul/Alice Bailey books (as I think I clearly mentioned). And I'm only mildly offended at having to correct you on that point. Whether you choose to edit them (or to plagiarise them as your own) is a matter for your own conscience. I don't suppose the late authors will be making too much of a fuss (though their publishers might). Personally I think the originals said what they had to say quite adequately. I don't agree with all the ideas put forward, but my post was only intended as starting point for discussion. Which may yet happen. We'll see. click here to go to the website I found those ideas on (http://www.dangerangel.org/glamour.html) www.dangerangel.org/glamour.html

Subject: Re: Some thoughts for Dep, and others ... From: nfm To: cq 'GNOTHI SEAUTON' Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 19:04:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The body depicted in the above post has many similarities to the body that I have and many persons have. I would however not say that the mind of the person who posed for this statue does, for that would be an assumption, a conjecture, I could not make. I know that even a simple thing like, writing in the first person, was not used until St. Augustine, so clearly the mind has changed greatly over the centuries. Even such a simple thing as a zero would most likely not have been known to the person who posed for this statue. I would submit that what ever version of 'Knowing thy self' one wishes to talk about, to be important to me, it must incorporate the same level of universality as does the depiction of this body contain. What ever practice might help me in the endeavor of 'Knowing my self' must also incorporate that level of universality, if it is to truly address the question of 'why' my mortality. This should be clear to anyone, for mortality is most clearly related to my body. The 'Practice' you disdain so fits these requirements and my expectation. The universality of this 'Practice' has been noted in the orthodoxy of expremie.com, of course as an observation about 'Maharaji's' lack of originality, but noted none the less. I must note that in some areas, like the body, originality may not be very important. It is fortunate that the person who posted this did not use some Indian depiction of Krishna or Gonash for they would have had four arms each containing some item, of interest to historians, if not to the persons who post in this group. I do not have four arms nor have I ever seen a person with four arms yet I am still interested in why these ancient statues have four arms. I wonder if any one might know the answer to the riddle of four arms, who posts to this site? I hate to burden you with this for I do realize that you probably don't care, however it does not require a response if in your ocean of not caring you would find this a burden. NFM

Subject: Arms and the man (!) From: cq To: nfm Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 07:43:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The image in my post above was that of the God Apollo. Whether a life-model was used in its creation, I don't know. The image here is of Kali: The link above contains the following explanation of her four arms, (though bear in mind that a great many of the Hindu pantheon share the same attributes - all except Krishna, who I've never seen represented as having any more than the standard issue of 2). Kali's four arms represent the complete circle of creation and destruction, which is contained within her. She represents the inherent creative and destructive rhythms of the cosmos. Her right hands, making the mudras of 'fear not' and conferring boons, represent the creative aspect of Kali, while the left hands, holding a bloodied sword and a severed head represent her destructive aspect. The bloodied sword and severed head symbolize the destruction of ignorance and the dawning of knowledge. The sword is the sword of knowledge, that cuts the knots of ignorance and destroys false consciousness (the severed head). Kali opens the gates of freedom with this sword, having cut the eight bonds that bind human beings. Finally her three eyes represent the sun, moon, and fire, with which she is able to observe the three modes of time: past, present and future. This attribute is also the origin of the name Kali, which is the feminine form of 'Kala', the Sanskrit term for Time. Another symbolic but controversial aspect of Kali is her proximity to the cremation ground: O Kali, Thou art fond of cremation grounds; so I have turned my heart into one That thou, a resident of cremation grounds, may dance there unceasingly. O Mother! I have no other fond desire in my heart; fire of a funeral pyre is burning there; O Mother! I have preserved the ashes of dead bodies all around that Thou may come. O Mother! Keeping Shiva, conqueror of Death, under Thy feet, Come, dancing to the tune of music; Prasada waits With his eyes closed ... Ramprasad (1718-75) More info on other multi-limbed deities here: Brahma: http://ikashmir.org/Gods/God12.html Durga: (who has 18 arms!) http://ikashmir.org/Gods/God1.html PS What was that about "my ocean of uncaring?" Kali in Hindu mythology www.hindupaintings.com/kali.htm www.exoticindiaart.com/artimages/db09.jpg

Subject: does that help explain? From: fore -warned is fore-armed To: nfm Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 04:35:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: janet, being a smartass with a hint of truth. we are all about being fore/four armed, here. why, look right down there just above your wrists! there they are! your forearms! see? you have been fore -armed all along.

Subject: There was a famous pickpocket From: PatC To: fore -warned is fore-armed Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 21:12:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In Durban when I worked in a pharmacy opposite the Indian bazaar there was a famous Indian pickpocket known as Four-arms because he was so nimble. His MO was to talk excitedly all the while patting and frisking you with what appeared to be all four of Shiva's arms. More seriously - the oldest depictions of Shiva show him leaning on a baragon. In one hand is a flower, in another a seashell, in another a star. On the palm of his fourth hand is written Om. This supposedly depicts the four aspects of meditation. Flower = nectar. Seashell = music. Star = light sometimes known as jyoti or star. Om = the holy name.

Subject: Lila and money From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 07:18:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just thinking, it's funny that whenever Maharaji changes anything, like getting married unexpectedly, or deciding to call mahatmas initiators, then instructors, or closing ashrams, then re-opening them, then closing them again, or DUO, then no DUO, or premies not giving satsang any more, or instructors not giving Knowledge any more, or gratitude instead of devotion......the list is truly endless. The point being, that whenever Maharaji changes one of these things, premies gulp (or not) and think 'Maharaji's lila' (1972-1982) or 'Wow! Another beautiful change!' These changes, some of which have been quite radical, tend to be interpreted by premies as 'forcing us to abandon our concepts and remaining open to each moment as it comes', or 'Maharaji refusing to be kept in a box' - whatever. The interpretations are also endless. One thing springs to mind, however - the one thing he has never played around with or changed in any way: the acquisition and maintaining of his fabulous wealth. You only have to consider it for a moment to see what a dichotemy there is here. Why has Maharaji never abandoned this fabulous wealth? He could go on and acquire it all over again, but why has he never abandoned it, not even once? When he has played around with every other single thing in his world? Can any premie here come up with a convincing explanation for this? Livia

Subject: Re: Lila and money From: premie To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:36:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Uh , well ,its like you see umm.I don't know what to say really but you know it's like it's sort of like all about love you know like ... that most beautiful experience and well... what was the question you asked ?

Subject: To LIV re:Lila and money From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:48:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ' yeah because he really is the lord and he owns it all anyway, it's just an illusion that you actually give anything, it's his grace that he allows you to express your love in such a personal way; plus there is of course the exclusivity of major donor events for the glitterati......' I thought you knew this? (upper case optional where applicable)

Subject: A Hieroglyph... From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:14:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'EIMDHIWNAMM' Even In My Darkest Hour I Will Never Abandon My Money Even though it should read ' Your Money! '

Subject: Other Forums From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 04:42:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Other Forums The Anything Goes Forum is a forum to talk about anything you like. It is completely uncensored and can be a wild and bizarre place at times but also funny. The Symposium is a forum for discussing things like politics and the Universe. It is very occasionally moderated. The Premie Forum Is also called ''Life is Great''. This forum is for premies but other people join in.

Subject: Life is great From: Livia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:55:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dave I took your advice and visited some other forums including Life Is Great. To my dismay I found a post there purporting to be from someone going by the name of 'Aivil' (Livia spelt backwards, presumably to suggets 'Evil'). Anyway, Aivil said: 'With love, Livia' then 'liar' then 'go away'. Nice! I suppose this means that no ex could possibly feel anything remotely resembling love. The fact is, though, that I frequently do feel very strong feelings of warmth and appreciation for you all when I post here, which then causes me to break out into mawkish expressions such as 'with love'. If anybody has had to reach for the sickbag, please accept my apologies. However, I can't guarantee that I will be able to stop this loathsome habit. I don't expect I'll be going away either. As for the lies, I'm racking my brains but just can't come up with any that I may have told while posting on this site. I'm afraid any lying I have told over the years has occurred chiefly whilst acting as an apologist for Maharaji, especially when attempting to justify or explain his fabulous wealth. Thank God none of us have to lie on his behalf any more! With love, Livia DARN!!! I said it again!!!

Subject: to LIV From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 18:10:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you go ahead and send all the love you want; God knows we need it, and its' real, for heavens' sake.... 'love one another with a pure heart fervently, see that ye love one another.' LOVE (and optional barf-bag..) AV

Subject: To AV From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 09:23:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Phew! I was beginning to worry that you were all out there with your sickbags. Lots and lots of love to you, AV - you are a real sweetheart (I mean it) Livia XX

Subject: A useful tip From: JohnT To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 08:40:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you miss the off-topic chat or inspired lunacy of the Other Forums just bookmark Anything Goes or the Symposium instead of Forum 7. Both Anything Goes and the Symposium carry a good set of links, including to each other and to here. So once you've checked them out, continuing on to here is easy. JohnT - never a premie

Subject: Re: Other Forums-yeah! From: janet To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 05:58:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what happened to the links that used to be at the top of this page? I assigned one f key to this forum and counted on coming here to be able to get right over to the other two when i was done reading here. now they're gone, and I have to go thru all this laborious file riffling to get to my links to the other two pages. is thater a reason the nks were taken out of the header to forum 7??? janet just wondering.

Subject: Re: Other Forums-yeah! From: cq To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 15:59:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janet, if you're ever stuck in that position again (oooh, sounds painful ;)), you could always click on the EPO link at the top of this Forum, then scroll down the homepage of EPO to 'Forums' and click on the link to the Symposium from there. (thinks ... but I never wanted to be traffic cop, honest).

Subject: Re: Other Forums-yeah! From: Livia To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 17:48:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your links don't work, Dave!

Subject: Try these then From: Sir Dave To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 21:28:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The links work on my computer and seemingly on everyone elses. I see you're using Windoze 95 and maybe that's why they don't work since they are supposed to open in a new window. Other Forums The Anything Goes Forum is a forum to talk about anything you like. It is completely uncensored and can be a wild and bizarre place at times but also funny. The Symposium is a forum for discussing things like politics and the Universe. It is very occasionally moderated. The Premie Forum Is also called ''Life is Great''. This forum is for premies but other people join in.

Subject: Re: Try these then From: Livia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:10:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Dave, it works fine now Liv

Subject: Another last resort method From: Crispy To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:18:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When you're on this F7 site, you'll see the url address at the tops of the page ends with who=gl if you switch that with who=louella that'll bring you into the Symposium

Subject: ah! Glasshopper observant! Now pleez answer dis: From: cq To: Crispy Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 14:32:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Q: How many Taoist monks does it take to change a lightbulb? A: Thousands, because Confucious say ... (wait for it) ... many hands make light work. Ha! already.

Subject: Thanks, all of you [nt] From: Livia To: Crispy Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 09:25:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Excerpts from the LEADER article From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 16:31:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here are two paragraphs from the introduction to the ''interview'' with Rev Rawat in LEADERS mag. PDF prevents copying and pasting so you have to type it out. Sorry, I can't be bothered to type anymore. People who practice self-knowledge say that it is precious, and yet Maharaji does not charge for it. When asked why, he explains that he has never seen helping people gain self-knowledge as a commercial undertaking. Far from ''selling'' self-knowledge, Maharaji even concedes that it may not be appropriate for everyone. He cautions that people must choose it freely, be ready for it, and pursue it without obligation. ''This is not for sale,'' he explains. ''It is a gift, in the truest tradition of a gift.'' His work is supported entirely by voluntary contributions and the sale of related materials. Over the years, Maharaji appears to have become more passionate about his work. Despite the growing number of people with a keen interest in self-knowledge, he seems indifferent to fame and has avoided the celebrity circuit frequented by so many others who seek to gain adherents. Others who represent themselves as ''self-help'' gurus tend to achieve popularity by focusing on what people could have or do to achieve external success. Maharaji makes it clear that self-knowledge will not make you a movie star or a CEO, nor will it make you rich or improve your golf game. It may, however bring you the fulfillment that these things alone cannot provide. I won't comment on the truly clumsy writing style or the irritating misuse of commas but a few things really jump out. No mention (since he does not charge for his product) of how he came to make his millions. ''Far from selling self-knowledge, Maharaji even concedes that it may not be appropriate for everyone.'' Right, so only the chosen few will ever have ''self-knowledge.'' I guess the rest of us have to walk around thinking we're someone else. As for ''...the growing number of people with a keen interest in self-knowledge...:'' Well, I guess after 2 million years of not knowing who the fuck we were, human beings finally are interested in finding out who they are - well, actually only a growing number of working-class Hindus are interested which fact Rawat forgot to mention. The rest of us seem quite contented to walk around all day long asking our co-workers and family members, ''Who am I?'' But I guess movie stars, CEOs and golfers really do need self-knowledge since the article is aimed at these super-rich folks. Movie stars I can understand. They have to play so many different characters that I'm sure they sometimes forget who they are and have to have a Hindu guru tell them. CEOs - maybe - they're putting on an act most of the time too and probably need Rawat to remind them who they really are. But duffers? Don't they know who they are? Maybe Rawat is talking about golfers in Palm Springs - you know like Bob Hope, ancient and suffering from senile dementia or Alzheimers. Yes, I guess they sometimes need to be told who they are. My guess is that this article was negotiated to co-incide with the debut of the Prem Rawat Foundation and a copy was submitted to the IRS as proof of Rev Rawat's ''bona fides.'' It is also an interesting co-incidence that EPO was hacked and put off-line round about the time this article was being submitted to LEADERS mag for publication. It also seems to be aimed at premies (via the PRF site) perhaps to further re-inforce the cult revisionism and to boost flagging morale among those who are beginning to waver. It's basically a reaction to EPO.

Subject: Re: Excerpts from the LEADER article From: Jennifer To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:36:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe ex-premies can innundate LEADERS magazine with 'Letters to the Editor' about the Maharaji article. If they are a legit publication, they will print a few of them in their next issue.

Subject: Don't Bother From: Marshall To: Jennifer Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 13:53:56 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: That's a very good idea Jennifer except Leader's Magazine doesn't have a Letters to the Editor section! Great mag huh?

Subject: The Self Knowledge Song From: Sir Dave :p To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 00:19:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Stick yer fingers in yer eyes And say hooray. Stick yer fingers in yer ears And say today. Breathe for fifteen minutes dreaming Of the Maha on a swing, Lick your hard palette some more And you're OK. Singin' eye eye yippee yippee eye Singin' eye eye yippee yippee eye Singin' eye eye yippee Eye eye yippee, The Maha's built a castle In the sky.

Subject: Self Knowledge Song - revised version From: Sir Dave :p To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 04:08:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Stick yer fingers in yer eyes And say hooray. Stick yer fingers in yer ears No not that way. Breathe for fifteen minutes dreaming Of the Maha on a swing, Lick your hard palette some more Call it a day. Singin' eye eye yippee yippee eye Singin' eye eye yippee yippee eye Singin' eye eye yippee Eye eye yippee, The Maha's built a castle In the sky.

Subject: I preferred the first version :C) [nt] From: PatC To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 14:28:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: I preferred the first version :C) From: Jasmine To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 17:20:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think the first version is a bit better than the second one too! Jasmine (David's daughter)

Subject: Hi, Jasmine, from 6,000 miles away. :C) [nt] From: PatC To: Jasmine Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 20:31:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hi Jasmine, from 6,001 miles away. :) From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 21:57:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Any daughter of David's must be a great person. I'm sure you'll agree. :)

Subject: Who is PatC? From: Dep =) To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 23:36:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As for ''...the growing number of people with a keen interest in self-knowledge...:'' Well, I guess after 2 million years of not knowing who the fuck we were, human beings finally are interested in finding out who they are - well, actually only a growing number of working-class Hindus are interested which fact Rawat forgot to mention. The rest of us seem quite contented to walk around all day long asking our co-workers and family members, ''Who am I?'' PatC, when someone askes who you are do you take out your wallet and show them some ID? Is that who you are? =)

Subject: Here's who he is From: Sir Dave To: Dep =) Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 05:05:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC is a vast collection of experiences which bundled all together, make a unique individual. When PatC dies, he'll go off to the big restaurant in the sky where he'll rejoin his dogs and old friends and they'll talk about their lives on Earth. Maybe next, he'll invent a new recipe there, which will be enjoyed by all (especially the dogs).

Subject: Re: Here's who he is? From: Dep =) To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:48:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God forbid Sir Dave, but what if PatC got amnesia? Would he cease to exist?

Subject: Re: Here's who he is? From: Can't remember To: Dep =) Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 07:10:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: No From: Sir Dave To: Dep =) Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:25:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but that would be one of his experiences - forgetting everything. He'd remember it all in the end. Who we are is enhanced by this world. Who we are is added to, by our being here. But I doubt that you believe that, so you can forget it.

Subject: Re: No From: Dep To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:51:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but that would be one of his experiences - forgetting everything. He'd remember it all in the end. Who we are is enhanced by this world. Who we are is added to, by our being here. But I doubt that you believe that, so you can forget it. --- Maybe there is not end to remember it all. Let's not be superstitious here. Let's just use what we know. I've had this argument many time with Jim. Perhaps I'm not expressing myself well and making too many assumptions. But my goal is not to turn everthing into a big nothing. Otherwise I'd just go out and get a lobotomy. I say it's good to use your mind and your heart. To be intellectual and be spiritual. Use the accelerator and the brake. Have as many options open as possible. Be felxible. Use all of ourselves. Not to just stay down in the safe little corner of ourselves but to open ourselves to all that we can. To develop our minds our spirit and our bodies. Would people in touch with all aspects of themselves be more likely to be elegant, and well-balanced, and enhance this world? I'm not asking you to throw out your mind. You need your mind, but not all the time. I don't want to discuss this anymore.

Subject: I hope that was meant to be a silly haha question? From: PatC To: Dep =) Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:24:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep said: ''PatC, when someone askes who you are do you take out your wallet and show them some ID? Is that who you are?'' Of course I have to show people who don't know me my ID. I mean people like traffic cops, bank tellers etc but not for people who know me. If anyone sticks around for a while they'll get to know who I am. I guarantee it. I'm not shy. In fact I'm as easily read as an open book.:C) Of course some people never get to know me because they don't have the nimbleness and stamina to keep up with me or they aren't interested and don't like me. But I'm sure you were being facetious as you were with the last joke you made. Because you sure as hell know that I don't believe in some other secret inner me. b) I'm just me through and through. And there's only one of me as there is only one of you. Unless of course you are suggesting that we are the Akashic Borg or all one in some invisible nothingness. Hoo boy! You have got religion bad if you think that. Eek, sweetheart, I'm unique. So are you. How can any dumb thoughts of old dead socalled saints and other assorted fakirs have anything to do with who I am?:) Sounds like you need a Caribbean vacation, lots of massages, fine wine, some sloppy sensuous sex and good food to get you back down to earth. Did I use enough emotikons? I like them. ;) You know I wish you well but you're awfully unimaginative and a bit cowardly the way you clutch at straws that are water-logged because they have been floating around for so long. Isn't it time for you to go where no man has been before - on your own journey, alone, without all the baggage of old concepts and using your own map not the ideas of long dead fakirs?

Subject: No it wasn't! [nt] From: Dep =) To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 23:01:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Spot on Pat. nt From: Tim G To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 12:35:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Excerpts from the LEADER article From: NFM To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 21:55:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Know thy self' The question has been asked by all intelligent persons, looking at their mortality. Why? People who can not introspect are like animals they have few problems but they are ignorant. Maybe ignorance is bliss but it is not my way. Best Wishes to all. nfm

Subject: Huh? What? From: Tonette To: NFM Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 09:15:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So let's say a retarded individual, IQ of 60, doesn't stand a chance at 'knowing thyself?' Wouldn't classify them as intelligent now could you? Wrong. My brother was retarded but knowing what he was about was not one of his handicaps. What is the recurring fascination associated with Ralwat and his message that centers on the fact of our mortality. Impending gloom and doom. We are all going to die. Yikes! Oh no! Lions and tigers and bears. Can you at least look at this way of perspecting your life and existance and see how disfunctional this is? How damaging to your outlook and your time here and now on the Earth? Please just a peak. Don't you walk around feeling sort of anxious not to mention futile, operating through that lens? Have you ever met a person who can not introspect? Come on now. In fact, I would say such a person doesn't exist. Now that you mention it, when M introspects I'm sure he realizes exactly where he has been and what more he wants to accompolish. Now that's some food for thought. Frankly, I found your post offensive, simplistic and lacking in depth and honesty. It's as if you think you have something to say but in actuality there's nothing there. 'Ignorance is bliss but that's not how you operate,' How do you operate? Focusing on your mortality? You haven't been able to answer the 'Why?' question yet? How old are you? Sounds like I'm reading the script of a wayward, confused adolescent male. What to formulate that little ditto into English? 'People who can not introspect are like animals.' Conversly, introspection causes problems. Obviously the way you do does. I doubt if I will get a reply from you but I will welcome one if you choose to and are still reading here on the forum. Tonette

Subject: I know who I am From: janet To: NFM Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:00:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: would it knock you over to find out that there are a hell of a lot of people who are never troubled by wondering who they are? I have known who I am from minute number one. always had it, always will. maharaji never showed me who i am. for that matter he went out of his way to be sure i didnt find out who he was, either. but -whoopsee--i found out in spite of him. much to his dislike. he is no 'Master of Self -Knowledge. Not of Me and My Self, nor of You and Your Self, nor of He and His Own Self. You want to know yourself? Get into therapy. Join a 12 step group. go skydiving. take LSD have children and raise them. face a terminal illness. get really and truly lost in a landscape you don't know, where you don't speak the language. have a nervous breakdown and live to tell about it. survive a war. there. any one of those ought to keep you busy getting deeply and unshakeably, irrevocably better acquainted with yourself for a good long time. and with everyone else around you, as well. go ahead and pick one and get to it. let us know how it turned out.

Subject: Know thyself? See above response to Dep [nt] From: PatC To: NFM Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:27:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: A Charmingly packaged Spiritual Path From: Lesley To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 18:15:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for the Wealthy Hi Pat, I can imagine Prem Rawat brushes up quite attractively for CEOs. What a convenient philosophy ... if you are not feeling good about yourself, don't look at what you're doing, just meditate, and, when the worries get too much, subjugate yourself to Prem, and you'll feel just fine again. And then, what a compatible Spiritual Leader Prem is, a match made in heaven indeed. Mr Rawat's past history as Guru Maharaj Ji; his video'd flocks of prayerful Indians, enthusiastic Africans, and transported Westerners; even his Krishna costume, holi gun and darshan lines, all become entertaining wallpaper on his holy path to become the number one apologist, excuse me, I mean 'Spiritual Leader' for the wealthy. My condolences, CEO's, it's a tough job, being at the top, but someone's got to do it, eh, and now you lucky fellows have the wise but charming, kindhearted, playful, lovable Prem to hold your hand. I have been having a bit of a laugh at Captain Rawat's latest flaunting of his very thick hide. I mean, is this where the worm turns, is this where the rich and powerful few get hoist on their own petard and start selfadministering the 'opiate of the masses', is Prem the scented worm in the apple of western civilisation?.... or just another Hindu Guru playing a percentages game. Lol, rgds, Lesley

Subject: to Pat From: AV To: Lesley Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 19:17:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NOT FOR EVERYBODY???? Then surely not knowledge of the self? What is SELF? in M's terms. I think most would concede that the SELF is universal to all , and therefore it MUST be for everybody, because it already IS everybody for chrissake!!!!!!!! HOWEVER, (a big however...) some new customers may not appreciate the 'hook' that comes with Rawat, that you become drawn into and dependant on his endgame, however you perceive it. Therefore self-knowledge with a 'hook' is not for everyone maybe? But to say that self knowledge per se is not for everybody is like saying oxygen is not for everybody...anyone with two braincells will see that. UNLESS their ego is flattered by the possibilty that THEY are smart enough to partake of the vine, while the dummies are rummageing for scraps in the garbage. In respect of these new customers 'the foundation' is seeking to attract, does anybody know if M is up on say, philosophy , the humanities, the historical development of world religions, gnosticism, mysticism etc.? How would a debate on that level proceed, I wonder?

Subject: Re: to Pat From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:23:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, I've noticed that too. Maharaji has hinted that Knowledge isn't for everybody more than once over the last few years. The only thing he can possibly mean is that it probably isn't for anybody who can see right through his game at first or second glance. No, it can't be for them, can it? Love, Livia

Subject: not for every body??? From: To Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:35:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah , when did that start I wonder, or more to the point, why??? 'this knowledge is for everyone' was fundamental to the whole approach.. maybe for those who got abused, hacked off, dismissed, ignored in crisis, made too vulnerable to say; 'hey, that ain't right, surely..?' sad, but maybe just not for those guys......huh? love AV

Subject: Re: not for every body??? From: Neville To: To Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 07:55:25 (EDT) Email Address: nrbarnes@btopenworld.com Message: Well, I guess it wasn't for me. This explains a lot--like why I never experienced one microsecond of anything transcendental while meditating, just incredible, unbelievable boredom. Or maybe I just wasn't doing it right. Neville

Subject: Funny you should say that, From: Tonette To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:44:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't have any Earth shattering meditation experiences either. I tried believe me, I did. Zilch, nada, nothing. I did experience bits of sleep, numb forearms, sore floor of mouth, and compressed eyeballs. Does that count? My husband has talked about a few incrediable meditations he's had. Funny how they are so fleeting and can never be summoned at will even though his heart was willing, environment secure, concentration set. And the day after becoming an ex, he has not felt the need nor desire to practice again. That's after 25 years of daily thoughts and tyraids to do just that, meditate. A constant mantra of 'I have to construct my life so I can fit in an hour of maditation.' I'll go simply mad if I don't meditate. Hey, almost sounds like of the five commandments. Constantly reach for that golden ring. Never delay in attending to your experience, and damn everything else, it's not real anyway. Always stay 'in touch' with your Master, have faith. Leave no room for thought in your mind. Oh what was the last one, never put off for tomorrow what you can do today, because you're going to die, maybe today, or tomorrow, but soon and by golly, you just have to trot on down to the post office to buy stamps to put on the envelope so you can send that check of gratitude to The Master. I have seen light. Not while doing the techniques. And the big deal is? Frankly I think the whole scheme is people believing that the hum of their functioning nervous system is something incrediable. Music? Yep, lots of crickets and stuff but you can hear that without plugging your ears. Holy name? Sex is much more deep, literally and figuratively. The love for another goes way beyond the expansion and contraction of one's thorax and the passage of air thru the respiratory system. Nectar, give me a break! The pineal gland does not connect to the pharynx. And unless you're a reptile, has no association with anything higher than a gland. Your saliva for instance is made by a gland. So, you're not alone Neville. And unless you are a retard, which you are not obviously, how could you not do it right? Unless of course, you weren't doing enough satsang and service congruently. That must of been the problem, you bad; in your mind; premie you. That's okay, you can come to hear M anyway and don't forget to participate, ie, money, free labor. Yes you, you low life form, can bask in the presence of the LIVING PERFECT MASTER! You were so lucky! And you helped make M so very happy. In fact, he's still laughing, all the way to the bank! Anyway, I'm just posting and typing and I too am laughing. Kind Regards, Tonette

Subject: Re: Funny you should say that, From: Neville To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 15:32:59 (EDT) Email Address: nrbarnes@btopenworld.com Message: Right--the hum of the nervous system that John Cage heard when they stuck him in an anechoic chamber for a few minutes. M's real trick was psychological--we wound up hypnotising ourselves into thinking we were experiencing something. Like if 51% of an ashram walk around with blissed-out smiles it soon becomes 100%. Call me cynical, but... Neville

Subject: No, I'd call you realistic From: Tonette To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 09:55:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You seem not cynical with all the bitterness and negativity that that term implies. Rather I see you as observing reality. And that word anechoic, thanks, had to look it up (blush) because I had never heard it before. Reminds me of a scene from the movie Altered States made years ago, 1980 or so. William Hurt takes acid and enters a shallow water filled anechoic chamber. He transforms into something that is not quite human. Intriguing movie but it bothered me for some time. Gave me nightmares as a matter of fact. Do I see a connection here? Anechoic, free from reverberations, echos. Could one equate that with****? Meditation, a self imposed internal anechoic state. Altered States, a movie portraying the results of an anechoic chamber. No wonder I had nighmares! And yes, by far, the biggest gripe I have with M is the psychological rape he deliverd so expertly. He has yet to blink an eye. Take care, Tonette

Subject: Hey Cynical... From: Cynthia To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 21:08:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Neville, We haven't met--I've been away for a couple of weeks--long story--don't ask:) Brainwashing or cult programming (chose your flavor) seems very similar to hypnosis. In literature about cults that I've read as well as information on many anti-cult websites the after affects of leaving a cult, especially a personality and meditation cults, frequently leave new exiters feeling as if they are in a trance like state. Many people have reported having that feeling. Both those in the reading I've done and right here on F7. Too bad for us that it was an hynosis that lasted years! Btw, I'm Cynthia Gracie and I live in Vermont. I was born and raised in Connecticut and first hooked up with the cult in 1975 in Hartford. Best to you, Cynthia

Subject: Hi Cynthia From: Neville To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:57:43 (EDT) Email Address: nrbarnes@btopenworld.com Message: Hi Cynthia, I didn't mean literal hypnosis. I was putting forward my conviction that we fooled ourselves (and that this is self-reinforcing when you have a community doing it). I once had the misfortune to encounter a professional con man. He worked by finding out what people wanted, then promising it, and greed would do the rest--blind them to his BS. Charlatan Ji works the same way, by promising what we want--sadly, we all want a little meaning in our lives. In many senses, we created him, created his myth because we wanted so badly for it to be true. I think I had an unusual exit from DLM (this was '75). True, when the foundation of you life is snatched away, you are likely to feel somewhat empty. For me, though, it was a glorious freedom from the accumulating insanity around me. I still wake up mornings glad to be out of it. Neville, UK

Subject: Re: not for every body??? From: Livia To: To Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:50:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, that's right. Very odd, the more you think about it. If it's the Knowledge of the self, and it's inside everybody just waiting to be discovered, how can it possibly not be for everybody? Unless it's only for the people who are capable of suspending all disbelief as they watch video after video in the process of waiting... Hey! Maybe that's why he's started talking about belief! Belief is relief! Funny, that, too. When I first received Knowledge, one of the things that first attracted me was the way he talked about Knowledge being an experience and there being no need whatsoever for belief. It was this that for me differentiated Knowledge from a religion. Now it's all about belief and Knowledge not being for eveybody. Well, waddayaknow!!! Love, Livia

Subject: To LIVIA Re;SELF From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 06:41:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Also Liv, that thing about ' if you are a Christian it will make you a perfect Christian, if you are a Buddhist....da...da...da' In other words; A UNIVERSAL KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH (IMPLIED...OF GOD WITHIN) WHICH TRANSCENDS ALL BOUNDARIES OF RACE, CLASS AND CREED. Why would you buy into anything less if you were a sincere seeker of truth? Today, EV / M seem to have difficulty being truthful about their own past statements, actions and policies; not a very happy state of affairs is it? Ooops , there I go whingeing when I could be getting my life together....... LOVE AV

Subject: Re: To LIVIA Re;SELF From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 06:58:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Whinge, whinge, whinge, that's all we ever seem to do these days when we could be having such a great time experience gratitude and telling it like it is NOW!!! in 2002, not how it was in 1972, or 1982 or 1992.....or even 2001 for that matter - or even last week!!! After all, the nature of truth is that it is an ever-changing phenomenon, well, in Maharji's world anyway! Lots of love to you, Liv

Subject: Rev rawat is just being his usual flakey self From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 21:36:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He's been surrounded by sycophants since he was a toddler. He is trapped in a make-believe world. He has always liked play-acting the part of the CEO. This is just another scene in his movie where he gets to be read by the 35,000 most influential people on earth. The smartest LEADERS readers will immediately recognise Rawat's nudge-nudge-wink-wink spchiel and simply dismiss him as another of the New Paradigm corporate consultants and ''inpsirational speakers.'' He is finally in his right milieu. He may still have a career giving self-knowledge to the leaders of the New Paradigm corporate world. I just knew he wasn't mensch 30 years ago. He's a phoney, game-playing braggard and bluffer and fits right in with the other hucksters of the corporate culture. You said: ''....to say that self knowledge per se is not for everybody is like saying oxygen is not for everybody...'' Yep! He should rather have come up with a better name for his ''product'' because ''self-knowledge'' is a little too easy to parody. Maybe he should have called it ''nothing.'' I hope you're feeling tougher and more cheery today.

Subject: Re: Rev rawat is just being his usual flakey self From: mitch To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 22:50:39 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: You cracked me up!!! When I brought my wife to see Maharaj Ji in Miami guess about 7 years ago she said ' that was a lot about nothing' and I dont think we were watching Sienfeld Yet either.

Subject: to pat c From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:27:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cheers, yes a bit tougher, we all have our ups and downs; I don't like the bad downs tho' tx for support...I shall wear it aiways!

Subject: Well, I was feeling awfully blue too From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:33:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Last week I went through this withdrawal symptom that I had not had before. I suddenly missed being silly and irresponsible just like our former master. Devil may care, carefree and childish. I used to think being silly was being child-like whatever that may mean. Well, there's no lasting peace of mind in being silly but there is in being honest which is what I think a child-like heart really means. I feel much more at peace with myself now that I am no longer associated with someone of whom I was ashamed and embarassed.

Subject: Hey, blues brothers, you two From: Tonette To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:08:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I haven't been following your conversation nor the forum for that matter and this may be totally stupid but I'll tell you a story that might make you chuckle. I warn you it's stupid but here goes, Okay here I am sitting in a Motel 6 in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Gone are the nightly 4 course dinners, gone is the private room, gone is the sweet smell of the ocean since this particular motel has just had a major sewage backup and the windows do not open. My husband has just brought back a $4 bottle of Pinot Noir wine with the accompanying 69 cent ergonically incorrect cork screw. Well, times are tough and now is the time to open that bottle and 'get back to that place.' Hell, M's not real, thank God that we still have wine! So the corkscrew is employed gently but determinely to the bottle. One twist, two twists, and damn the thing just broke off in my hand, leaving me with the blue plastic piece and the steel 'pigs tail' embedded in said cork. Why or why did he not buy a screw top bottle of wine? Because we have class. After all we are in a Motel 6 located off beautiful Interstate 95. So what to do. Not drinking the wine is not an option. I'll swim thru the coldest waters to experience 'that place, that experience.' Do I have my swiss army knife? Nope, airports don't like knives anymore and I didn't risk having to give that up! I know, the solution is so simple, so easy. So while wearing my white top and white shorts with my daughter looking on expectantly, I push the cork down. Ah, what a fine pop, what a fine year, and what a fine spray of red wine all over me. Geez, brought back memories of Holy festival. And certainly elicited that response in my daughter and I. Yes life is sweet and thankfully the wine was fruity and slightly dry and extremely sweet. Cheers you two! Tonette

Subject: And cheers to you too, Tonette :) [nt] From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 13:46:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Self-knowledge wont' make you rich... From: Happie Frenchie To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 18:08:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, but if you sign on, it will make him rich !

Subject: Leaders Article -- Richard Cooper From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 14:00:34 (EDT) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: Hi all. I'm away from the Forum but someone emailed me about the 'Leaders' article, in which Maharaji is 'interviewed.' I just wanted to point out one thing after taking a look at the portion of the article on the Prem website. Richard Cooper is highlighted in the article as a 'Senior Vice President' of Grubb & Ellis as the kind of CEO-type that Maharaji wants to exploit to demonstrate how together his 'students" are. I just have a couple of comments. First, not to take anything away from Richard Cooper, but Grubb & Ellis probably has hundreds, if not thousands of 'Vice Presidents' and I'm sure they also have hundreds of 'senior vice presidents.' So, it's not like Richard is running the company, and he isn't even running the Miami office, not by any means. It's a company made up of real estate agents, mostly in commercial property. Kudos to Richard, however, for being successful in his career. Second, Richard Cooper was known as 'Coops' back in the 70s and 80s in the Maharaji cult. Sometime in the 70s, Richard's parents had him kidnapped and attempted to have him deprogrammed -- I'm not sure if it was by Ted Patrick or somebody else. I think shortly after he was kidnapped old Coops escaped from the deprogrammers and his parents by jumping out of a window and breaking his leg in the process. [This was a notorious story told in satsang and Richard's devotional courage was greatly admired.] I recall Coops with a cast on his leg in the late 70s or early 80s in Miami, and there was some effort to keep his location confidential, lest his parents, who apparently were not impressed by what 'self-knowledge' was doing for him, would try it again. Note that Coops does not mention this incident in his 30-year career with 'self knowledge.' Just thought you would like to know.....

Subject: Re: Leaders Article -- Richard Cooper From: Livia To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:27:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You don't mean Dick Cooper who used to be National Co-Ordinator in England around the early 80's? I think he was Australian. Or am I way off beam here? Love, Livia

Subject: Re: Leaders Article -- Richard Cooper From: Moll of Mole To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:52:38 (EDT) Email Address: mollofmole@loveable.com Message: Livia, There are two Richard Coopers, one is Dic Cooper (rjc) an Australian who was the national coordinator in England in the early 80,s and now lives back in Australia. He’s a great guy and I loved him heaps. The other is Richard Cooper who is from Miami and is the one that would be mentioned in the article. I know Richard a little and he is also pretty cool kinda guy..................from a woman’s point of view that is, nothing to do with his guruness. Moll of Mole

Subject: Richard Cooper (the American) From: Joe To: Moll of Mole Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 13:08:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I believe Richard was originally from Connecticut, and was I think in Denver for awhile. He was in Miami in the early 80s, and apparently still lives there now.

Subject: Re: Leaders Article -- Richard Cooper From: Livia To: Moll of Mole Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 04:22:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Moll, Thanks for clearing up the confusion. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: -Richard Cooper From: Richard To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 16:02:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I recall Richard Cooper as a really nice down to earth kid of guy. Glad his career has continued to grow. Interesting he attributes his success to M&K. I suppose I would have happily done the same a few years ago. I was wondering where you've been, Joe. Thought TPRF and Leaders article had pursueded you to return to the Lotus Tootsies. ;)

Subject: New page on EPO From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 10:06:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: EV PR Team report on EPO and the Forum, and the damage this might do to his work ! Thanks to all for your synchronized work, including Glen and Ros !!

Subject: Nice work J-M From: gerry To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 11:12:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very nice layout, well organized with pertinent links. Quite professional and may I say, quite damning as well! Of course, now you've got a huge job ahead of you reporting on the demise of EV and the birth of "The Foundation." (Don't you just know that's what all the pwsk's are calling it.) It's not easy keeping up such a busy whirlwind as our Lard.

Subject: Help with Spanish Required From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:59:13 (EDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: As most of you have probably noticed, www.ex-premie.org has some Spanish pages (as well as Jean-Michel's extensive French pages), but unfortunately, they haven't been updated for some time. Also, I regularly receive emails in Spanish, and I need help in translating, and replying to them. If anyone is willing to put in some time to help with this, it would be very much appreciated. The minimum I require at the moment is helping with the emails, but much more can be done. Extensive propagation was done in Spanish speaking countries, and these people have the right to know the truth about Maharaji. Anyone who can help, please email me. John.

Subject: Re: Help with Spanish Required From: salsa To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 08:25:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: count on me. i have some time. Email me. silvia

Subject: Have I got the wrong email address? From: JHB To: salsa Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 14:25:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Silvia, I have emailed you with requests for help and you haven't replied. That's why I'm asking here. Send me your address, and we'll try again. John.

Subject: 1979 radio interview with Bob Mishler From: Dep To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 15:40:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Isn’t it ironic that the non-devotional 'Self Knowledge' route that Mr. Rawat is now taking was first implemented by Bob Mishler in late 1975? Too bad Mr. Rawat didn’t accept Mishler’s advice way back then. If he had, he would have saved us all a lot of trouble. =)

Subject: How do you get past the mind, though? From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 21:35:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: See, the problem with that approach is that it still requires complete abdication of critical thinking. You know the thing that insists you get some good, concrete answers to important fundamental questions? Questions like: 1) What exactly is this thing you're calling 'self-knowledge'? 2) Where does it come from? 3) How do you know? Any attempt to sidestep these issues is as insulting to one's intelligence as joining the cult in the first place. And no, 'try it, you'll like it' is not an acceptable alternative to real answers. Mind you, I don't expect someone like you to understand that.

Subject: Re: How do you get past the mind, though? From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 14:44:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1) What exactly is this thing you're calling 'self-knowledge'? Four meditation/yoga techniques? 2) Where does it come from? The techniques or the experience? I believe the techniques come from India and the experience comes from Tierra del Fuego. 3) How do you know? Let's just say a little bird told me.

Subject: Curry comes from India.. From: Nigel To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 17:23:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dep, I am watching you flail here with some amusement (but not just laughing AT you - I enjoyed the Tierra del Fuego moment, I must admit...:) But the thing is, you seem to be deliberately ignoring the core of Jim's points (or otherwise not understanding them). No wonder he gets infuriated. Sure K (whatever that is) comes from India. Sure talking about it is not the same as 'experiencing'. But you could say the same about curry: it comes from India (or at least has obscure oriental roots) - same as k - you can list the ingredients - same as k - but to 'understand' a Hot Madras or a Vindaloo, you gotta experience it - dive in and swim about a bit... fine. Very cool, very satsang... But the gist of your thread seemed to be implying that if M had but listened to Mischler, his subsequent Mastering activitivies would not only have been excusable, but possibly still praiseworthy in their humanitarian, er, humanitarianness? The thing is, even with the Mischler amendment, M would still have been no more than an average chef (or kitchen porter) who happens to know a decent curry recipe but claims curry to be his personal 'gift', and that nobody should get to know that recipe until they were ready to receive the gift. See the absurdity? See what makes every cult the toxic head-fuck that it truly is? I mean surely...

Subject: Re: Curry comes from India.. From: Dep To: Nigel Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 23:25:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dep, I am watching you flail here with some amusement (but not just laughing AT you - I enjoyed the Tierra del Fuego moment, I must admit...:) But the thing is, you seem to be deliberately ignoring the core of Jim's points (or otherwise not understanding them). No wonder he gets infuriated. Sure K (whatever that is) comes from India. Sure talking about it is not the same as 'experiencing'. But you could say the same about curry: it comes from India (or at least has obscure oriental roots) - same as k - you can list the ingredients - same as k - but to 'understand' a Hot Madras or a Vindaloo, you gotta experience it - dive in and swim about a bit... fine. Very cool, very satsang... But the gist of your thread seemed to be implying that if M had but listened to Mischler, his subsequent Mastering activitivies would not only have been excusable, but possibly still praiseworthy in their humanitarian, er, humanitarianness? The thing is, even with the Mischler amendment, M would still have been no more than an average chef (or kitchen porter) who happens to know a decent curry recipe but claims curry to be his personal 'gift', and that nobody should get to know that recipe until they were ready to receive the gift. See the absurdity? See what makes every cult the toxic head-fuck that it truly is? I mean surely... --- Knowledge is also mentioned in the Bible.

Subject: Yes, so is Deputy Dog From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 23:39:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dep, I am watching you flail here with some amusement (but not just laughing AT you - I enjoyed the Tierra del Fuego moment, I must admit...:) But the thing is, you seem to be deliberately ignoring the core of Jim's points (or otherwise not understanding them). No wonder he gets infuriated. Sure K (whatever that is) comes from India. Sure talking about it is not the same as 'experiencing'. But you could say the same about curry: it comes from India (or at least has obscure oriental roots) - same as k - you can list the ingredients - same as k - but to 'understand' a Hot Madras or a Vindaloo, you gotta experience it - dive in and swim about a bit... fine. Very cool, very satsang... But the gist of your thread seemed to be implying that if M had but listened to Mischler, his subsequent Mastering activitivies would not only have been excusable, but possibly still praiseworthy in their humanitarian, er, humanitarianness? The thing is, even with the Mischler amendment, M would still have been no more than an average chef (or kitchen porter) who happens to know a decent curry recipe but claims curry to be his personal 'gift', and that nobody should get to know that recipe until they were ready to receive the gift. See the absurdity? See what makes every cult the toxic head-fuck that it truly is? I mean surely... --- Knowledge is also mentioned in the Bible. --- Idiot!

Subject: Re: Yes, so is Deputy Dog From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 00:14:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dep, I am watching you flail here with some amusement (but not just laughing AT you - I enjoyed the Tierra del Fuego moment, I must admit...:) But the thing is, you seem to be deliberately ignoring the core of Jim's points (or otherwise not understanding them). No wonder he gets infuriated. Sure K (whatever that is) comes from India. Sure talking about it is not the same as 'experiencing'. But you could say the same about curry: it comes from India (or at least has obscure oriental roots) - same as k - you can list the ingredients - same as k - but to 'understand' a Hot Madras or a Vindaloo, you gotta experience it - dive in and swim about a bit... fine. Very cool, very satsang... But the gist of your thread seemed to be implying that if M had but listened to Mischler, his subsequent Mastering activitivies would not only have been excusable, but possibly still praiseworthy in their humanitarian, er, humanitarianness? The thing is, even with the Mischler amendment, M would still have been no more than an average chef (or kitchen porter) who happens to know a decent curry recipe but claims curry to be his personal 'gift', and that nobody should get to know that recipe until they were ready to receive the gift. See the absurdity? See what makes every cult the toxic head-fuck that it truly is? I mean surely... --- Knowledge is also mentioned in the Bible. --- Idiot! --- Jim, I'm going to pretend I didn't see that! You calling me an idiot! Whoooaaaaaa. You are the guy who doesn't know the difference between something and nothing? You are the guy who doesn't know the difference between idolatry and meditation, mind and heart, intellect and intuition, noise and silence? You are the guy who spent 8 looooong years in an ashram who now claims Knowledge is bogus. What an putz! You've been drinking, right?

Subject: Forget it From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 01:08:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't bother, Dog. You're cutting with a very, very dull edge, there.

Subject: Why would I expect anything more from a cartoon? From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 19:38:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I DARE you to try to answer those questions honestly.

Subject: A cartoon? From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 23:19:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I DARE you to try to answer those questions honestly. --- Okay I'll try to answer those questions honestly and I'll take them on one at a time. See, the problem with that approach is that it still requires complete abdication of critical thinking. You know the thing that insists you get some good, concrete answers to important fundamental questions? What? I have no idea what you are talking about. Questions like: 1) What exactly is this thing you're calling 'self-knowledge'? Same thing as Knowledge, same four techniques, same experience, but with a different name. 2) Where does it come from? The techniques come from India and the experience comes from the person practicing the techniques. Am I missing something here? 3) How do you know? Well the techniques could come from somewhere else, I just assume they come from India. The experience has to come from the person doing the techniques, unless you think you can meditate for someone else. Any attempt to sidestep these issues is as insulting to one's intelligence as joining the cult in the first place. What issues? And no, 'try it, you'll like it' is not an acceptable alternative to real answers. Mind you, I don't expect someone like you to understand that. You want me to explain how the techniques work here? Are those the real answers you are looking for? I don't how they work. I don't how a computer works either but that doesn't stop me from using one. If you do the techniques you benefit from them, if you don't do the techniques you don't benefit from them. That's as honest as I can be. I don't know what you are after here Jim, that's why I posted the brash and impertinent reply above. The past is finished and we can't change it. What's is done is done. Maharaji did not take Mishler's advice and IMO things would have been better if he had.

Subject: You ...just ....can't...do..it, eh? From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 23:57:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, You're missing a gene or something. If you honestly, no bullshit, think those are answers, you're missing something. I don't know if it's basic intelligence, what it is, but, if that's your best, there's really no point us talking. Here, let me show you what I mean. Take your first answer: 1) What exactly is this thing you're calling 'self-knowledge'? Same thing as Knowledge, same four techniques, same experience, but with a different name. Now, everyone here knows it's the same thing, Dog. So I don't know what you're trying to prove playing a game like this. Obviously, I'm asking what 'Knowledge' is, no matter what you call it. This is the second time you've side-stepped the question. And people wonder why I have no patience or respect for you! I mean what's your third answer going to be? That it's 'Kriya yoga' or something? What is it? By the way, I'll tell you something else that won't work so please don't even try it -- don't tell me that 'Knowledge is a way to .....' That's also no answer. It still side-steps the pith of the question. Care to try again? Third time: what is 'Knowledge'? ****************************** Second question sees you once again avoiding the issue: 2) Where does it come from? The techniques come from India and the experience comes from the person practicing the techniques. Am I missing something here? Again, we all know the practice apparently originated in India. That's trite. The question 'where does it come from?' is only interesting on a much more fundamental level which is to ask how in the world this fell into the lap of us mere mortals to begin with. If this is the gift of the gods, how did they give it to us? If it's not the gift of the gods, how did we get it? Use your mind, for a change, Dog! Did this come from Santa Claus? Is there such a thing as a God-man, just like Shri Hans used to talk about? See, this all does make sense if you do indeed accept the full on orthodox guru trip as set out in Hans Yog Prakash, as initially taught for a decade or two by Maharaji and as is currently taught by his brother competitor. The problem with trying to take this cute little idea of 'Knowledge' and separating it from that orthodoxy is that it then becomes this completely important ....THING ,,, (oh sorry, that was an Ulfism, those commas like that :)) ... perhaps the most important of all, divorced from all science, all history, all social context.... ... it's like it becomes its own self-perpetuating mind-fuck without the guru. Yes, indeed you're missing something here. You're missing a healthy, inquring mind. ******************************************* 3) How do you know? Well the techniques could come from somewhere else, I just assume they come from India. The experience has to come from the person doing the techniques, unless you think you can meditate for someone else. Well, because you trivialized the second question and didn't really answer it, the third might indeed call for an answer like yours. But if you dealt with the second one properly, the third is fascinating. No, it's not just a matter that it came from India. Dog, can you, even for a thought experiment, pretend that you were a scientist? Or a historian? Imagine how a person who honestly respected their mind -- sorry, no slight intended, I'm just being honest. You don't respect your mind or 'book learning' as you've made abundantly clear -- imagine how you'd deal with these questions in THAT frame of mind?

Subject: Oh well here goes nuthin since he won't From: hamzen To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:31:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: make the effort. 1. It's a state of mind found through many routes that leads to an entranced state, which is absolutely gorgeous, can unify your sense of self, and increase your appreciation of how magical it can be to be alive. Over here the two obvious corollories (sp?) are the psychedelic route, and the sporting route. It requires deep committment, a passion, a high level of concentration, and a high level of relaxation. When it works it leads to enhanced states such as sportsmen and entertainers know as 'being in the zone'. It almost certainly is kicked in by chemicals in the brains, probably the synapse chemicals, almost certainly increased levels of serotonin, but quite likely other chemicals too. These patterns are quite likely to have evolved over long periods of time because evolutionary speaking they have benefits for the species. We enjoy those states when they happen because they are quite addictive, because of thew good feelings they produce. Drugs of choice around the world, when freed from social and more especially religious constraints, mostly favour states that are similar to those sought by raj yoga, taoists, shamans etc but with more humour and less pomposity involved. The different techniques for triggering these states probably evolved over time when people realized they were possible to be experienced by altering the circumstances of ones life. We know that physical exercise, food regimes, can also trigger similar states, as can falling in love.

Subject: Re: Oh well here goes nuthin since he won't From: Dep =) To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:58:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: make the effort. 1. It's a state of mind found through many routes that leads to an entranced state, which is absolutely gorgeous, can unify your sense of self, and increase your appreciation of how magical it can be to be alive. Over here the two obvious corollories (sp?) are the psychedelic route, and the sporting route. It requires deep committment, a passion, a high level of concentration, and a high level of relaxation. When it works it leads to enhanced states such as sportsmen and entertainers know as 'being in the zone'. It almost certainly is kicked in by chemicals in the brains, probably the synapse chemicals, almost certainly increased levels of serotonin, but quite likely other chemicals too. These patterns are quite likely to have evolved over long periods of time because evolutionary speaking they have benefits for the species. We enjoy those states when they happen because they are quite addictive, because of thew good feelings they produce. Drugs of choice around the world, when freed from social and more especially religious constraints, mostly favour states that are similar to those sought by raj yoga, taoists, shamans etc but with more humour and less pomposity involved. The different techniques for triggering these states probably evolved over time when people realized they were possible to be experienced by altering the circumstances of ones life. We know that physical exercise, food regimes, can also trigger similar states, as can falling in love. --- What is Knowledge? The Knowledge I was referring to is four meditation techniques, revealed by one person to another, that can lead you to the state you so well describe above. Does that satisfy you hamzen?

Subject: Re: You ...just ....can't...do..it, eh? From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 00:45:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Since you don't like my answers, why don't you answer these three questions then. You will obviously prefer your answers to mine. Go ahead! 1) What exactly is this thing you're calling 'self-knowledge'? 2) Where does it come from? 3) How do you know?

Subject: No problem From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:24:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Since you don't like my answers, why don't you answer these three questions then. You will obviously prefer your answers to mine. Go ahead! 1) What exactly is this thing you're calling 'self-knowledge'? 2) Where does it come from? 3) How do you know? --- 1) A set of meditation techniques purported to trigger a direct experience of God. Because God's God, the meditation techniques purportedly only render the experience with God's knowledge and consent. Because the meditator is himself supposedly a manifestation of God, the experience supposedly reveals that 'true nature' to the meditator in an experience of nirvana or samadhi wherein, again only if God consents, he transcends identification with his illusory separate self and 'awakens' or reidentifies with God. This is called 'God realization'. All of this is pre-scientific and, in fact, wrong. What 'Knowledge' really is is just a grab bag of meditation techniques that allow one to turn the mind away from its regular activities. There is no path, no enlightenment, no God-realization. There is nothing 'noble' or 'sacred' about the experience. That's all superstition. It's akin to a mental massage and that's about it. 2) Beats me. I don't know where or how people first thought this up but it's obviously superstition as nothing about it comports with the real world. 3) Science and common sense. But, remember, and this is the key thing. I'm not a proponent of this thing, you are. I don't need to know what it is or how it got here. You do. The world's full of superstitious beliefs and practices. This is just another. If you want it to be more you have to explain it and, if you're tossing the guru out the window, then you need something to replace it. That was my original point. Talking about Knowledge without guru is like talking about prayer without God. It makes no sense.

Subject: Re: No problem From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:07:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What 'Knowledge' really is is just a grab bag of meditation techniques that allow one to turn the mind away from its regular activities. Agreed! There is no path, no enlightenment, no God-realization. There is a path in the sense that things happen or develop in time. Learning to play hockey or do anything is a path. Enlightenment could mean simply getting used to the peace of having a mind turned away from its regular activities. God realization depends on what you call God. Some say God is a transcendent state of peace and harmony. Some say God is a paranoid guy with a beard, who lives in the sky. How do I know? Through direct experience of that state! Now talking about bizarre superstitious claptrap what's this 'if you're tossing the guru out the window, then you need something to replace it.' What???? How about a state of clarity where the mind turns away from its regular activities? How about clarity, emptiness, wiping the slate clean. Way back in 1974 I joined a group that did meditation, not a personality cult. you say, 'Talking about Knowledge without guru is like talking about prayer without God. It makes no sense.' I say that makes no sense. You are confusing meditation with idol-worship. There is nothing 'noble' or 'sacred' about the experience. That's all superstition. It's akin to a mental massage and that's about it.

Subject: answers Jim Heller From: Albert Einstein To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:11:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Albert Einstein - ''There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as if everything is.' 'My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.' 'The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.' 'We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality.' 'The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.' Jim Heller - ' All of this is pre-scientific and, in fact, wrong. What 'Knowledge' really is is just a grab bag of meditation techniques that allow one to turn the mind away from its regular activities. There is no path, no enlightenment, no God-realization. There is nothing 'noble' or 'sacred' about the experience. That's all superstition. It's akin to a mental massage and that's about it. 2) Beats me. I don't know where or how people first thought this up but it's obviously superstition as nothing about it comports with the real world. 3) Science and common sense.' It strikes me that old Al (who was known in his day as a fair-to-middlin' scientist) wouldn't be overly impressed with Mr. Heller and his tiny outlook, blowhard methodology and flaccid perspective on life.

Subject: Re: Big problem(for Dep Dog) From: Marshall To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:07:53 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Hahahahahahahahahahahaha lolololololol Thanks for the laughs Jim(and dep dog) Tonite forum 7 is a real gas, with calif guy down below and dep dog up top. This is too much. ciao

Subject: For fuck sake dep From: hamzen To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 17:23:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You haven't truly understood zen one iota have you, I seriously think you've been a jabbering premie for WAY TOO long, somebody ought to tape your mouth up for a cuppla months and you'd learn the biggest lesson of your life. I know what your talking about, know where you're coming from and you give that space a really bad rep. OK so you feel a bit exposed and vulnerable about it all at the mo now you're no longer fully up rawats arse and the instant new age babble he induces so easily, but really. Start chopping some wood or something and get ghrounded, and stop being so scared you're gonna lose the magic that you're defensive around it.

Subject: Re: For fuck sake dep From: Dep To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 23:45:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You haven't truly understood zen one iota have you, I seriously think you've been a jabbering premie for WAY TOO long, somebody ought to tape your mouth up for a cuppla months and you'd learn the biggest lesson of your life. I know what your talking about, know where you're coming from and you give that space a really bad rep. OK so you feel a bit exposed and vulnerable about it all at the mo now you're no longer fully up rawats arse and the instant new age babble he induces so easily, but really. Start chopping some wood or something and get ghrounded, and stop being so scared you're gonna lose the magic that you're defensive around it. --- Gee thanks Hamzen, I don't understand zen. I'm giving that space a bad rap. I'm feeling exposed and vulnerable. I used to be up Rawat's arse. And I'm defensive because I'm scared I'm going to lose the 'magic.' Has it ever occured to you that maybe Jim's questions make no sense? Please read my reply to him. And I'm not scared I'm going to lose the magic. I gave up hope years ago and it works just fine.

Subject: Re: 1979 radio interview with Bob Mishler From: michael donner To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 19:31:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the rub back in 1975 was all about money. they why things were being presented to m back then included m as basically the head of the church with a salary....with very strict seperation of DLM money and expenses and truely real dedicatons of love in the form of cash to m. all that made m feel very boxed in potentially. now of course, he is indeed independently wealthy and could easily live on his significant investments...thanks in large part to the care michael dettmers took in arranging this for m at m' request/agya. so, its possible that he could even operate the new foundation very legally and with clean separation of funds...and even get a large 'salary' from the foundation...not to mention of course that the foundation will rent the plane and homes for all his trips that are foundtion related....and of course all he ever does is foundation related because that is all he lives for, right. generously giving of himself, his time and total concentration on his work of spreading this knowledge to so many millions each and every year. how many people received knowledge (outside india) in the past years?

Subject: Donner reply From: Foundation for Abi To: michael donner Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 05:54:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Remember when it was brought up on the forum about creating a foundation for survivers of cult abuse whereby Abi could have a platform to get her message out as well as, offer some constructive help for other survivers? It was brought up a couple of times and now voila! Maharaji has a 'foundation'.

Subject: Dettmers too.... From: Susan To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 18:34:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: suggested a non devotional approach....the way I recall what he said it sounded like a cross between a retreat and spa for premies/pwk's to rejuvenate. Spa? okay...skip the K review for me. The thing is though, Prem ( do those around him now call him Prem?) has to face his past head on. He just can't Hakuna Matata it. If he is ever to have any credibility, and I say it is just far too late for that, he has to face his critics point by point and make a lot of apologies and explanantions. It will never happen.

Subject: Re: Dettmers too.... From: Marshall To: Susan Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 20:08:24 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Hi Susan, Who is Hakuna Matata, sounds Hawaiian. Take Care, Marshall

Subject: Lion King Tune From: Tonette To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 05:10:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Timon to Pumba when they first found Simba half dead in the desert. Hakuna Matata, what a wonderful phrase. Hakuna Matata, ain't no passing craze. It means no worries, for the rest of your days, it's our problem free, philosphy, Hakuna Matata. Pumba sings: When I was a young wart hog, I could clear the savanna after every meal. I'm a sensitive soul, though I seem thick skinned, and it hurt that my friends never stood downwind. And oh the pain, thought of changing my name and I got downhearted every time that I farted. Pumba, not in front of the kids. Oh sorry. Hakuna Matata. No worries, no responsibilities. In many ways exactly how many premies act. Living life with blinders on. Great tune, you should check it out. Written by Alan Menken and Tim Rice. The whole soundtrack is exceptional, my daughter still listens to it. It's an African phrase, although I do not know what country specfically it originates from. Cheers, Tonette

Subject: France Bock From: Mitch Greenberg To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 12:35:59 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: When I received knowledge in Montreal, 1977 There was a beautiful and innocent angel named France Bock. I was very shy and she would encourage me to spend more time at the Ashram. I witnessed her thru the years, doing service Crying for Maharji Ji etc etc After the closing of the Ashrams I always wondered what would have happened to her. I heard that she was asked to stay at Maharji Ji house to help with the kids, but that something did happen. I thought maybe she saw him as just a person , not the Lord. I do not know if something else happened. Would really help me to know, or find out about France. Thanks www.gemdat.com

Subject: I remember France From: Jim To: Mitch Greenberg Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 01:17:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mitch, Sorry things are a little rough for you now. It won't stay that way. In fact, it really won't take you all that long to get your land legs and, once you do, you'll feel better than ever. Strength in mortality, that's what I say. :) Yes, I recall France. She was sweet. God, it's been so long. I just remember her from when I lived in Ottawa, late 70's. If you really want to know and no one has recent info on her here, email me and maybe I can help you figure out the right contact. Or something. Hang in there, Jim

Subject: Re: I remember France From: mitch To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 12:07:12 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: Hi Mitch, Sorry things are a little rough for you now. It won't stay that way. In fact, it really won't take you all that long to get your land legs and, once you do, you'll feel better than ever. Strength in mortality, that's what I say. :) Yes, I recall France. She was sweet. God, it's been so long. I just remember her from when I lived in Ottawa, late 70's. If you really want to know and no one has recent info on her here, email me and maybe I can help you figure out the right contact. Or something. Hang in there, Jim --- Thanks!! Thought would be great to talk to her again, and get her views also. I already feel quite better. have not really practiced for years (sometimes meditate) did not realize how I still was thinking 'maybe i will have to go back and maybe i left ....' I have been going to church a lot with my wife and those thoughts were popping up a lot. After reading about things that truly show MJ as just another person on quite a big trip makes it a lot easier to open up in church I was always seeking God and pretty sure learned some things thru those years if nothing else, met great great people think that is what i missed not mj but the other great souls

Subject: Leaving Maharaj Ji From: Mitch Greenberg To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 12:29:36 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: If anyone out there is from Montreal and is going thru same depression to find out that our doubts were really reality. Maharaj Ji not being the Lord but just a human who manipulated and messed up our lives. please reply. Need to share this anger and disgust. I used to day dream, 'what if he is just this guy and how twisted that would be' After reading some articles, I find out that is the fact. By the way. I am from Montreal but have been living in Florida (parkland) for almost 20 years thanks for the quick replys www.gemdat.com

Subject: Re: Leaving Maharaj Ji From: Cynthia To: Mitch Greenberg Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:31:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Mitch, Feeling anger is a normal reaction to realizing (phew) finally that goomraji lied, conned, and betrayed each of us personally and collectively. Vent your anger here because we understand the anger. This is the place to express it. It might be scary at first but you'll soon feel better. Then, of course, there is the sadness but it doesn't last forever. Welcome out! Cynthia Gracie Vermont, USA

Subject: Re: Leaving Maharaj Ji From: mitch To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 16:59:11 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: Thanks! www.gemdat.com

Subject: Re: Leaving Maharaj Ji From: Deena To: Mitch Greenberg Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 22:11:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Mitch...it has been ages since I checked out what is happening here. I left 4 years ago, Jim knows best what I went thru because he was there for me. It gets better with time...much, much better. I don't envy what you have to go thru now though. You do have your self to look forward to...something you can't have when you are involved with Maharaji. By the way, I knew France in Ottawa in 82-83. Remember that you are not alone, that there are lots of people here that care.

Subject: Re: Leaving Maharaj Ji From: mitch To: Deena Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 12:10:17 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: Thanks!!! you guys/gals are great!! www.gemdat.com

Subject: Re: Leaving Maharaj Ji From: Pullaver To: Deena Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 00:42:13 (EDT) Email Address: pullaver@yahoo.ca Message: Hi Deena. I think that I know you and lived briefly in your house in Hull after I left the ashram. Pls drop me a line at the e-mail address above.

Subject: Welcome Mitch From: Tim G To: Mitch Greenberg Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 18:55:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't Worry Mitch...it's great to get out of the trap... it might take a liitle while and it might take friends and/or counsellors... but it is the beginning of a freer life for sure. Best to you Tim

Subject: Re: Leaving Maharaj Ji From: Livia To: Mitch Greenberg Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 09:36:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi to you and welcome. It's really not easy disengaging from a mindset that has linkered us for 20-30 years. The main thing is, you're not alone, and as time goes on you'll feel less and less alone as things begin to fall more and more into place in your thinking. Look forward to hearing more from you as and when you feel like posting. With love, Livia

Subject: Re: Leaving Maharaj Ji From: mitch To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 12:17:02 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: Will have to have a big reunion one day We all can say what we are now doing etc etc know this is what this group is about, but in person would be fun. Hey I will chip in some. Our business is finally taking off Funny I used to send checks to MJ and my wife wrote something nasty on one of the memos and someone in security called me to ask if were a threat or something i said something like 'She loves Jesus and really cant understand this' I used to wonder why someone so into MJ would never hook up with someone who would encourage them into knowledge and so into Jesus She really helped pull me out of there So guess that someone up there was looking out for me after all She understands when i tell her I am very open to God but if i feel in any way manipulated or controlled by the church I will reject it , because I will compare it to Elan Vital. take care!!!!!

Subject: Welcome back From: Tonette To: Mitch Greenberg Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 05:41:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes anger, depression, hurt, embarrassement (sp?), disjointed and delusional thinking, spiritual rape, arrested developement, ect are some of things you might feel. However, you have this to look forward to: Freedom, clearer thinking, new relationships that stand to be much healtier since they won't be justified thru the cult seive, a better understanding of love perhaps. I could go on and YOU will go on, this too shall pass. It gets easier and at some point you will laugh I hope. Take care. If it gets too hard getting some counseling is nothing to be ashamed of. Regards, Tonette

Subject: Hi, Mitch From: PatC To: Mitch Greenberg Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 15:37:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Need to share this anger and disgust.'' I hope you find another real live ex-premie in Montreal to talk to person to person but meantime we're all here for you and that's mostly what we all talk about too. Good luck.

Subject: Re: Hi, Mitch From: mitch To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 19:52:45 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: Thanks to all , who have replied so quickly.

Subject: Re: Hi, Mitch From: Bolly Shri To: mitch Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 10:10:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Mitch, A couple of months ago I was introduced to this site, It has been a lifeline for me. I don't have continuous access but just knowing that I'm not the only person who can't see the divine for the crap, is such a relief. At the present time I don't know very many exes in this area, but I feel like being able to communicate through this site is a real help. All those times you want to question Ms activities and the Stepford wives just blank you are over. On this site they acknowledge that your perception of reality is the truth. Good luck with finding your Montreal 'soul mates' and have a happy life in the real world.

Subject: Re: Hi, Mitch From: mitch To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 12:29:10 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: It has been a great relief to find out it is a real and actually quite a nice world. A lot of problems these days 9/11 problems in Mideast But my personal life is great!! Fourth kid just born two weeks ago. Business has been struggling so was wondering how we buy them shoes, barbie dolls you know the essentials but things are turning around for us. even more since i got more into a local church and finally realizing that returning to MJ is not an option I used to go to church and get really confused There is one God, but where do i focus MJ, Jesus, Judaism (note name greenberg) i prayed a lot for God to guide me the right way. Things are getting a lot clearer and this site sure helps me narrow down options I still believe humans need some kind of focus point You can just believe in God and that is great but realy brings a rush to think he walked on the earth at one point and think of him as a friend and a father. Not for everyone, but i personally need that That is why i was so drawn to MJ I basically lead my life very in the world now used to play drums professionally, now run a software company. Married but always hurting my neck looking at pretty woman. Hey they were the reason i never could live in an ashram even though i really wanted to. But I am the type that realy needs to have some connection to God I believe there are many ways to do that. I am leaning towards accepting Jesus, but dont think i will ever be one to say you either accept or go to hell that seems very manmade to me (some will argue) sorry to get so into religion but life seems to be smoother with some kind of belief in God Something that was in me since i was a kid, even without my parents pushing anything on me. i better get back to work bills to pay bla bla bla again you guys are great

Subject: Welcome, Mitch From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 16:42:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please feel free to share your story as it unfolds. Finding someone to talk with in your area will be rewarding. Plus there are a lot of people here who have been where you are and your words will be heard and responded to.

Subject: Re: Welcome, Mitch From: mitch To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 13:45:55 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: thanks again

Subject: Re: Welcome, Mitch From: bill To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 21:31:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mitch, If it is any consolation, he managed to avoid his own mom for 17 years till her death. Then he woke up to the fact that he was stalled in some day dream and to this day 10 years later, he still hasnt managed to find enough guts to face or figure out reality. He is still an alchoholic if we are to believe one of the poems on his own website that had a line that said 'One day I will be sober'. He would find the first step in AA impossible to reach. The dreadful state of mind you get when finding out for sure that prem rawat is not what he led us to believe, demanded us to believe, is a nightmare I hope you somehow are able to keep shorter than I took. Your task is big, and you have to insert a reality based view in place of the one prem rawat gave us. Different people seem to take different routes from this point and you have not typed enough for us to know how to talk to you at lenght. How about telling us about your time with m. When did it start? Where? Did you live in an ashram?

Subject: Re: Welcome, Mitch From: mitch To: bill Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 16:47:00 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: You asked for it, this is going to be a book but what the hey how often do you get to tell your MJ life story Around 1971 When I was bout 17, I first started hearing about MJ I was still going to school but already playing drums professionally in Montreal. I heard of him from some fellow musicians and people i knew in school (wagar high montreal) About 3 years later, I was about to move to Toronto to hit the big times, when I met up with the Bass player Allan Friedman. He told me not to go to Toronto and join up with his band. I did (BAD BAD MOVE) Well we started to practice up at this farm that the guitar player rented, and tada pictures of mj all over the place and no signs of hamburgers - just vegies before you know it i am at the outside program in orlando and crying after first time i see MJ come flying in in his helicopter (hooked - oh oh) couple of months later i do make my trip to toronto and get in a great touring band (not Rush sorry) 3 years pass and i am now in a great band that gets a record deal I am super happy at this time, but quite often think about MJ and how i need to get in touch with my spiritual side (Very strange drummer - having the time of his life and he is still seeking God) Well the leaders of the band demand too much up front money from think it was A&M record co and deal is trashed band breaks up and i end up jamming at some clubs in montreal and of course there are the mj guys again I decide this is all a sign and lets finally go get knowledge (I also play hockey with the bass player who is telling me how if i receive knowledge i will be even a better drummer a better goalie and see star wars in my session bla bla bla) So I start hanging out at the Ashram This is where I meet the famous France Bock and now really get hooked, because she is so nice to me and so is everyone else. Now guess who is head of my little Aspirant group Peter Detmers (Mikie's brother) and another beautiful angel Nicole , plus my initiator is Nadine. If you went on a computer data base and said White drummer, who loves woman seeking knowledge who is the best instructor to match this guy Nadine would come up She should have been singing with Stevie Nicks or my girlfriend Def free spririt And Peter plays guitar, the greatest guy you would want to meet I did not have a chance 5 weeks later I am just about to receive knowledge totally into the whole thing and i get a call from the percussionist in the band that blew the recording contract He tells me that X musicians from April Wine and some other pretty known Canadian groups just got a recording contract and lost their drummer They are an Emerson Lake and Palmer type of band and he knows I am\ a perfect fit They want to fly me to audition and if I am as good as this other drummer is saying I start recording immediately. I decide this is God testing me\ Do you want to have peace and salvation or do you want something as petty as fullfilling your lifelong dreams. I decide on knowledge I almost give Matt a heart attack he is yelling at me over the phone 'are you nuts!! you worked and sweated for the last 10 years in hopes for this opportunity!!! how can you turn it down I even asked Nadine for advice and I dont think she told me to not drum she said something more like you are a drummer, be a drummer you can receive knowledge at a future session But for some reason (and can only blame myself) i stuck to knowledge - maybe i was already brain washed or lost some of my big ego and confidence that you would need to win an audition like this I sold my drums, received knowledge and went to Rome 1977 about one week after the knowledge session. I then moved to miami to live with my parents so that i could save up money while working to buy another set of drums at this point wanted to still play But I was never the same To play drums in a rock band in front of a lot of people you have to have ego and confidence Trying to be humble and not there did not work with being in a rock band i played on and off for about 5 years but again never at the same level Myself, Sonia Ball, and some others got to play for MJ at the montreal and toronto programs around 1982 and 1983 Those were very nice times When the Ashrams closed I thought it was very strange and felt very bad for people I knew for the past 5 years. \Was wondering what they would do when suddenly out on the streets without a career etc etc Then returned to florida to go back to school and take up computers Slowly faded from knowledge and would just go to programs in miami until about 2 years ago As per my other emails, I have started to go to church with my wife and kids more often, and often when feeling really good about Jesus, would think 'what if i had the chance to be with the living master and blew it' I told my wife of this problem and even the minister They understood that even if there was 1% chance that God was here again in a living form you would have to check it out. But I always had doubts about MJ and when i read stuff about him drinking, smoking, having affairs, made me realize that the image I had of him in my doubts were real. The stuff about his instructer molesting those kids is the most shocking I told Donna, Those Catholics hiding the stuff about their priests is bad but they are not pretending to be GOD Even when I was with MJ I sometimes thought of Jesus. I used to wish he was more like Jesus and sometimes even believed that MJ was GOD but that i did not like that GOD who seemed to be just on a big power trip. I wished he would just go away and let me just worship the GOD that as a child I felt was so loving, and my friend and my father. MJ would make me feel so small and lost in such a big universe that it was sometimes totally devastating. During the 5 years that I was very active 1977-1982 I wanted to kill myself countless times and attempted to in 1981 I took a whole bottle of something that my dad needed for his heart condition I was found in a coma, they pumped my stomach The doctors told my parents that i took enough to kill a horse and were shocked when i came out of the coma about 2 days later I told friends that I had a surfing accident but I dont think they bought it. I was so lonely that I just wanted to escape the pain. I did not know what the Real God has in store for me A beautiful wife and four kids and a life of hopes and dreams.

Subject: Most interesting tale, Mitch From: PatC To: mitch Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 15:07:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I enjoyed reading that and it compliments your Journey. Thanks.

Subject: Re: Most interesting tale, Mitch From: mitch To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 23:08:43 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: I read myself after and thought, probably scared some people off. (another nut case) As much as I am against MJ now and feel better since visiting these sites. (great weight off my shoulders or my soul) Realized that me trying to knock myself off was not soley due to my head being messed up by mj. My brother had recently been killed, and I just broke up with someone and could not believe how I could not get over it. Year later and still missing that person. (of course a premie girl) I never ever was so love sick as when with premies. must have been that feeling that they were angels and the concept that they were owned by mj and really un touchable. (we always want what we cant have) But again, that feeling of being so small in such a large universe did magnify everything going on in my head. For some reason, when I came to I was really happy. not like 'man i am still stuck here what happened' I reallly think It was like God gave me a second chance I still stayed with MJ at that point and the times we played for him in the band, was right after that. But within one year i would be back in Florida and just a part time premie (you know meditate once in a while and go to the programs to see him) Donna has noticed how much happier I seem lately. She knows that the combination of me going to church more often and finally getting this monkey off my back has really changed me I am not saying you have to go to church or try to replace MJ I am just doing what I probably would have done if I did not get sidetracked. I am as much into this world as the next guy. But nice to get inspiration somewhere to point me to look up at my creator once in a while and try to love him and feel that everything is not just random hit and miss down here. take care man Gemini's can talk and talk

Subject: Re: Most interesting tale, Mitch From: PatC To: mitch Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:50:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, I loved your story and enjoyed this post of yours just as much. Right now you're kind of hyped up and emotional and your writing is raw and naked. Just fresh and innocent. I don't wish a rollercoaster ride on anyone but I did go through an emotional rollercoaster ride for a few months when I first started posting here. I hope you aren't as vulnerable as you seem. I know you are mensch and I know you know what I mean by that. You'll probably be challenged by the atheists here about your church-going and for god's sake don't mention that you are a Gemini. Those people here who hate astrology hate Geminis the most. Just kidding - but some people here are real sticklers for objective scientific truth. Have fun but please don't get hurt. Okay? It's only the internet. You said: ''I never ever was so love sick as when with premies. must have been that feeling that they were angels and the concept that they were owned by mj and really untouchable.'' Oh boy yes I know what you mean. I bet you broke just as many hearts. You probably would have broken my old sissy/flowerchild heart I bet. Rawat lost a great lover when he lost you. But then he never was interested in real lovers just other narcissists like himself.

Subject: Re: Most interesting tale, Mitch From: mitch To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 12:39:52 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: I really appreciate all that you are saying and totally understand. I am vulnerable - but up for a good email fight. I did notice that a lot of the postings are very intellectual. I am very open but also realize, that I will never know for sure what the hey is going on until I die. And if there is nothing after life, will still not know. (duu dat ith tho thcary) sorry for the mike tyson impersonation - could not resist. hopefully he does not visit this site or I am gonna get my butt kicked. I realize, especially after the MJ thing that there is a 50/50 chance that there is no GOD I can think well if there is a real GOD why did he let me get misled like that. I have tried to rationalize it by thinking maybe I needed to learn about the concept of God taking a human form and why people can worship god thru a form such as Jesus or maybe he let me make my own mistakes so I could appreciate the real truth later. Now you can see why I am a Gemini (there he goes again) Yes Jesus is the way No there is no GOD this is all just random chaos. I could go either way, but feel better when I think there is a supreme being looking out for me and my family. (here comes the ego hey we gotta have ego - kind of fun) Yes I probably broke some hearts also. (I was quite the cutie in my glory days - If you like the drummer boy next door look) Is that why the Ashram girls used to giggle when I would walk by. Shoot if I knew what MJ was up to , I could have had so much fun. Stupid me, respecting their vows etc. (picture me slapping myself in the head) Hey If Donna ever finds out what a flirt I am (she probably knows) and leaves me, I am gonna post my picture and use this for Dating Why not, We all did that a little bit during the Satsang almost every night days Again some of the best people that I have met in my life were from the MJ days. When ever I get nastalgic (sorry horrible Candian spelling again) it is about the premies/x-premies not MJ Another good thing about this site. You can have a taste of the good part, without the thcary part!!! take care Mitch

Subject: I won't bite your ear off but... From: PatC channeling Mike Tyson To: mitch Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 13:26:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....you may get an earful from others. :)

Subject: Leaders Magazine admits they were had From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 11:17:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just got off the phone with Darrell Brown again. He did indeed look over EPO when I sent him the link. I asked him what he thought and his first words were 'Looks like this guy's done some pretty nefarious things'. He agreed that the magazine had been duped. I asked him how he came in contact with the Maharaji virus to begin with (not in those words) and he said some people in the organization knew some people at the mag, something like that, it was a bit vague. Anyway, bottom line is that this was one big Trojan Hamster and they're not happy about it either. I asked him about the copy, how it was produced and he told me that most, but not all of it, was sent up by the Rawat people themselves. I got the impression that some parts of either the article or the interview may have have some direct involvement from someone at Leaders, he said as much, but was vauge on that. [Nice guy that I am, I can always tell when not to push people when they don't want to talk about something. Some of you should learn that too if you want to get along with people. :)] I told him about the discussion here. I was frank. I told him that we couldn't figure out if this was a real publication or what the hell it was, that giving a venal cult leader like Maharaji such an uncritical platform to say nothing much more than 'you are getting sleepy' raised obvious questions of legitimacy. He accepted all that. I told him that we exes were more than ready to do whatever we would with the article but what about them? Wasn't he concerned for his magazine's credibility? He intimated that, yeah, this could be a problem but what could they do about it now anyway? He sounded professional about it all, if I can use that word. He takes some comfort in the fact that their readership really are all these big shots who, he says, know how to read and screen things with smarts and sophistication. He told me that the magazine's run some other controversial people before. They even did an interview with Quadaffi once. I noted, though, that, in that case, everyone at least knew who Quadaffi is, what he's all about, and how he got there. In Maharaji's case, if you actually read the thing, there's absolutely nothing there. I pointed out that here's a guy who, right up front, in the beginning of the piece, claims to know the 'secret of the self' and the source of true happiness, inner hapiness. Short of offering immortality or painless plastic surgery, this was the most grandiose claim imaginable. Anyone even slightly interested in reading further is going to wonder all sorts of things: who is this guy?; why him, now?; how, how him now? -- all sorts of things. Yet, even when he's directly asked for any real information, Maharaji evades and says nothing. As an example, I mentioned the one question where he's asked: You were speaking to hundreds of thousands at the age of eight. Hwo did you find yourself in that type of situation at so young an age? Like Duh! You're damn right that's a good question! But what's his answer? Check this out: I really feel it is a gift. I can't imagine how all of this would have been possible otherwise. It's a wonderful opportunity to come from the heart and address the very simple nature of us all. Yes, Derrell agreed, there's jsut nothing there. The guy's asked a question that could triggered hours of honest, sincere discussion. Instead he says nothing. Indeed, all one derives from this piece, at least the two pages I've seen so far, is that Maharaji can make you happy. Come to Maharaji -- sorry, Rawat -- and he'll make you happy. I asked Derrell if there was any sort of Letters to the Editor section or other form of feedback, but he said not now. There used to be but all they'd get, he said, were thank you notes for the most part so they stopped printing them. But here's what he said. He said that, depending on the fallout from the article, they might consider running some sort of off-setting commentary. Depends of what kind of flak, if any, they get from featuring a laughing-stock cult leader in their magazine, I guess. Now, I got the impression that he was just thinking out loud here. I imagine that what the magazine will really want to do is just keep thieir eyes on the future on this one and hope to hell they can just keep on moving, if you know what I mean. But that is what he said. By the way, I told him, frankly, that I have been and will continue to discuss all this here on the forum. He was fine with that. He also promised to send me the whole article sometime today for futher review. He said a few times that he expects to keep in touch with me, sometime down the road. I imagine that EPO will be getting a few extra hits today from central Manahattan.

Subject: Re: Leaders Magazine admits they were had From: Kerry To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:49:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A little more reading/investigating yesterday revealed that David Schner is credited as the interviewer and John W. Teets (another mason, ex CEO Dial and Viad Corps) who is the International Chairman of Leaders has a Gulf IV - maybe that's the connection.

Subject: Re: Leaders Magazine admits they were had From: calif premie guy To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 01:14:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello all I have been reading with interest and amazement for some time. For perspective : I am a premie (not an ex) have had knowledge for 21 years, have a family and a moderately successful business, MBA degree; most friends and assoc. have nothing to do with knowledge, and I have been actively participating with events until late last year. i practice knowledge most every day, see M as often as i can but only when i can afford it ( which mean mostly west coast events; never been to Amaroo). I am not a PAM (see, I have been learning your jargon), and with the recent changes have been very un-connected with any goings-on (learned about Amaroo and TPRF from EPO). I have gone through a lot of questioning and critical thinking about the issues raised here. i hope i am wrong, but i am guessing no one here wants to hear my thoughts and will immediately flame me, but here goes anyway: I have always felt uncomfortable with the veil of secrecy around certain things in regarding k and M, so appreciate their airing here. Knowledge and information are always good things, as far as i am concerned (this forum is a great example of the power of the internet). But some of the posting here forget basic human decency: respect for others even if you dont agree with them, and giving all the same freedoms you all desire, to pursue what they want of their own free will (yes, free will). What strikes me most about this forum is no one speaks about seeking truth in their lives, seeking inner peace or contentment. This is what brought me and most to knowledge; in the 70's I suspect many were attracted to the community and the security of the ashrams, and this is where i hear most of the outcry, emminating from this period, 30 years later. This is sad. So many talk of the loss of the living situation and the money they gave as opposed to any experience that was either never there or they no longer have. How about some personal responsibility in these areas you guys. If M and k weren't what you wanted, you should have left. if you stayed too long or gave too much, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOU ACTIONS. Brainwashing? give me a break. Ask John McCain or any other POW who was subjected to the best effort at brainwashing in the 60s and 70s if it worked on them. No, it did not. I have never been pressured to give money (in fact i have been able to give very little; I would like to give more because he is helping people). It was never even insinuated that I change my lifestyle or move in the ashram (had girlfriends when I recieved K and was a die hard rock and roller). Plenty of premies told me M was the latest Jesus, the only living lord, but he never did. Some of his early quotes do vaguely imply something divinity. I guess I did believe that at first. all i know now or need to know is he is a kind and compassionate man who gives his all to help people, and he has helped me. This is puzzling to me: so many chastize him for vague things he said when he was 8 or 10 that many of you interpret as him being god or something. He obviously is human. If you all know he is human, why do you condemn him for allegedly drinking, for having smoked pot, for having an affair, for eating meat, for being wealthy??? YOU are holding him to a non-human standard, the standard of a saint, when you say he is not. Dont any of you do those things/? what is wrong with them (i do not condone any affairs but he isnt the first to succumb). What does disturb me is the allegations of the accidental death of the cyclist and Jagdeos alleged child abuse. After reading all on here about those i conclude the following; show us some evidence, or even some witnesses who are willing to come forward and not hide behind someone else. I believe in innocent until proven guilty, and i believe in due process of law. Why are there hearsay allegations coming out only 20 and 30 years later, and on only this forum whose purpose is to discredit M? I tend to believe the Jagdeo behavior, and my sympathy goes out to any victims. More over, if this is true he should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Why hasn't he been/? also lets be clear; this wasn't rape or sex or fondling or nudity but inapproriate body contact, which is abuse and should be prosecuted nevertheless. but again, personal responsibility; the victims should come forward personally, and why didnt they do so 20 or more years ago. Passing a message through an instructor is no way to respond as a a victim of this kind of behavior. And how does this besmirch Maharaji? no one has accused him of child abuse or condoning it; he was never even properly notified. Child abuse is way to common but is a reflection on the individual perpetrator, not his employer or master. The cyclist incident would bother if it was verified, as an indication of weak character. I havent seen a police report posted here to even verify the death and the the person supposedly responsible. These should be very easy to obtain. Why aren't they on the extensive EPO site? It seems to have gone unacknowledged by you all that many of the changes M has recently made are very similar to those requested on this forum, yet where is the acknowledment of this or recognition as a step in the right direction? He seems to have dropped the name Maharaji, he hasnt since he was a pre adolescent made any reference to being anything approaching divinity, he has never asked anyone for money, yet you condemn him for things he said at an age when i was playing with playdough and learning to ride a bike. This says to me many of you arent interested in him changing as you claim, but are interested only in pulling others into the misery you yourselves are in. Are any of you happy, striving to improve yourselves, striving to be conscious, trying to give to your community or to others? for hundreds of thousands of people, these are some of things Maharaji has helped us to have in our lives, all without respect to our age, religion, origin, financial status, and --- without ever charging us a dime or requesting a donation. i know it doesn't work for many people. for various reasons. if it didnt for you 30 years ago, i truly wish you think about spending some time finding something that does instead of wallowing in your own past that you cannot change. I havent fully read the Leaders article, but i immediately did a search and found it to be a legitimate high ened publication, which does not pay for its articles from others. The reaction to this article has i am afraid further eroded your credibility. He is totally up front about what he is doing now, the new website is right out in front with the foundations means of support and includes a section in which to donate of one chooses to. Yet the reaction is to call him names again (really, fat jokes? grow up) and to claim there was some inpropriety involved in the article being published. What reasonable, intelligent person would believe that an exclusive publication whose subscribers include ( check their website) all o f the US senate, house, all US govenors, and most CEOS, would take a bribe to publish such an article, thereby thoroughly discrediting their publication? This would be business suicide. I hate to disallusion you, Jim, but when the author checks EPO he will see a buch of whining, name calling, immature people ranting about M but showing no evidence, much less relevce to what he is doing. He is a journalist, the readers are great thinkers; they will not be swayed by childish name calling; when the look for evidence or proof they will find none. i will continue to monitor this forum for a time, still waiting to see something more than people who never mention the experience, and are only now,30 years later, just starting to get their lives together. I any of the more serious allegations against M are ever proven I would probably disassociate myself with Maharaji, but i would still practice the techniques of knowledge that he so kindly offered to me, because i want to live my life filled with love, peace and joy, and that is what knowledge helps me find in my life. Love to all.....

Subject: Re: Leaders Magazine admits they were had From: Tim G To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 18:07:58 (EDT) Email Address: timgitti@indigo.ie Message: Hi Calif Premie Guy I appreciate your post. I also agree with you about the tone of some of the writings here, I objected myself when I first started reading. But this is a completely open Forum and the very multifaceted nature of it reflects the different places people are 'coming from'. No party line is prescribed with maybe the exception that this is an EX premie forum. Your substantive point about us, if there is an 'us': You say we do not mention the search for inner peace, contentment etc. If you read a little longer you will find that some of us still practice the techniques and benefit fully without the 'Grace 'of the master. Others have moved on to other meditation practices, others do not practice any path or technique. BUT what you will find is the common report that we tend to feel MORE human, alive, in-touch with our lives than when under the yoke of the so-called master. You are lucky in that it sounds as if you are quite remote from the workings of the Rawat Foundation/EV/DLM. A lot of people here gave their whole lives in dedication to Mr Rawat's regimen and eventually got badly stung. I cannot speak for anyone else on the so-called Spiritual front. I can only tell you my experience. Since waking up to the very closed nature of the movement and in particular the personality cult of its leader I have been on a very fulfilling journey. I am happier than ever and do feel grateful for the epiphanies along the way... that come DESPITE my efforts and my beliefs. What I have discovered is that the very effort to achieve inner peace is an obstacle and certainly any belief in a Saviour or Master is at the very least childish and in a sense an insult to the immensity of life . To be awake is the thing and to watch the workings of ourselves and others within and, very definately, without is the beginning of true 'Self Knowledge'. Not the repitition of some mantra or formula or reliance on a teacher. We are the teacher and the pupil. What happens around us and within us is the teaching. This kind of teaching has ethics and compassion. I challenge you to step outside belief and relian ce and see what it is like to live a day without a spiritual crutch. To watch a day that will exhibit the joys and miseries of living and see the marvellous show that is****ly going on while we cloud the sun. So that's my tuppence worth. As to wanting first hand evidence of Mr Rawat's lack of morals and kindliness you only need to read the accounts of several of the people who lived and worked for him for many years... such as Micahaels Dettmers, Donner and the late Bob Mishler. Something tells me the drip has just begun and I wish you lucl and enchantment on your journey Tim

Subject: For Calif Premie Guy From: Tim G To: Tim G Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 20:04:22 (EDT) Email Address: timgitti@indigo.ie Message: Hi Calif Premie Guy You might have missed this because of it's title. So here goes again: I appreciate your post. I also agree with you about the tone of some of the writings here, I objected myself when I first started reading. But this is a completely open Forum and the very multifaceted nature of it reflects the different places people are 'coming from'. No party line is prescribed with maybe the exception that this is an EX premie forum. Your substantive point about us, if there is an 'us': You say we do not mention the search for inner peace, contentment etc. If you read a little longer you will find that some of us still practice the techniques and benefit fully without the 'Grace 'of the master. Others have moved on to other meditation practices, others do not practice any path or technique. BUT what you will find is the common report that we tend to feel MORE human, alive, in-touch with our lives than when under the yoke of the so-called master. You are lucky in that it sounds as if you are quite remote from the workings of the Rawat Foundation/EV/DLM. A lot of people here gave their whole lives in dedication to Mr Rawat's regimen and eventually got badly stung. I cannot speak for anyone else on the so-called Spiritual front. I can only tell you my experience. Since waking up to the very closed nature of the movement and in particular the personality cult of its leader I have been on a very fulfilling journey. I am happier than ever and do feel grateful for the epiphanies along the way... that come DESPITE my efforts and my beliefs. What I have discovered is that the very effort to achieve inner peace is an obstacle and certainly any belief in a Saviour or Master is at the very least childish and in a sense an insult to the immensity of life . Looking for Any experience at all is still part of self interest/ego and there is not much difference if it's God or carpeting that we desire. To be awake is the thing and to watch the workings of ourselves and others within and, very definately, without is the beginning of true 'Self Knowledge'. Not the repetition of some mantra/breath technique or formula or reliance on a teacher. We are the teacher and the pupil. What happens around us and within us is the teaching. This kind of teaching has ethics and compassion. I challenge you to step outside belief and reliance and see what it is like to live a day without a spiritual crutch. To watch a day that will exhibit the joys and miseries of living and see the marvellous show that is****ly going on while we cloud the sun. So that's my tuppence worth. As to wanting first hand evidence of Mr Rawat's lack of morals and kindliness you only need to read the accounts of several of the people who lived with him and worked for him for many years... such as Michaels Dettmers, Donner and the late Bob Mishler. Something tells me the drip has just begun and I wish you luck and enchantment on your journey Tim Feel free to Email me.

Subject: Tim, I guess calif premie guy . . . From: Richard To: Tim G Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 12:09:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: . . . didn't reply to either of our welcoming, considerate and conversational posts because he was too busy arguing with those he perceived as having flamed him. Funny how some premies complain about the unfriendly atmosphere (too much methane?) but ignore overtures of kindness. Too bad as I know both you and I are really nice, compassionate and brilliant guys. :) Hey, but he did say that some of the posters were intelligent so he must be referring to you and I. You in any case. Oh well, I suppose we should busy ourselves doing service by vacuuming the red carpet for the next premie with a few questions and doubts. I have a special feeling deep within inside that there will be more. Cheers, Richard Addendum: I've just read some of the new replies to CPG and am amazed at the intelligent, compassionate and loving words in this thread. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I see beauty here.

Subject: Re: Tim, I guess calif premie guy . . . From: CPG To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 15:46:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard and Tim, and others: i did appreciate both your posts, and all the other respectful and thoughtful ones, of which there were many. I even enjoyed some of the insulting ones. There were so many I couldn't reply to them all but tried to cover my thanks in the other replies. I am impressed by the ordeal many of you have gone through, and all your efforts and thoughtfulness to get through it, each in your own way; that goes for everyone I heard from hear. Thanks folks.

Subject: Thank you, CPG From: Richard To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 16:33:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CPG (as good a nom de forum as any), Thanks for that. I suspected you were overwhelmed at the response you got but I was having a bit of fun with Tim G. I support and encourage people on whatever path they choose as long as it is not harmful to themselves or others. All the best on yours. You sound like a thinking and feeling person so I know you'll make the best choices for yourself.

Subject: Welcome CA PWK guy From: Richard To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 13:23:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean that sincerely. Welcome and thank you for standing up and telling your story as you see it. Very few practicing pwks have done that. You sound sincere and I hope you find the information you need to make a concious decision whether to continue with M&K or not. It is your choice but I think it is vital for you to know all sides of the Satguru to Foundation Leader story. Others have objected to your broad brush (holi gun? :) portrayal of anyone who no longer holds M in awe and reverence. I agree as there are as many different stories as there are posters here. I take greatest exception to your characterization of us being unfullfilled whiners. On the contrary, many of us who are among the thousands of former followers have chosen to fully embrace life rather than hide within a faulty belief system. Many of the posters have families who they care for and who care about them. Many have created successful careers after decades of 'being above all that maya'. Many perform community service and are otherwise engaged with humanity. I, for one, served as a board member of our local arts organization. I have consistently donated my design services to further the arts, eductation and multi-cultural work locally and globally. I love my family and spend most of my travel visiting them. It is wonderful to love and be loved. I certainly don't fault you for thinking M has evolved beyond all that old Hindu junk of the past and improved with time. That is the official word around Élan Vital and now The Prem Rawat Foundation. The package may be new and improved but the content is the same original recipe. Bhakti Hinduism is what GMJ and his father before him was all about. It is precisely what Prem Rawat, foundation leader, is all about today. Knowledge is precisely and has always been about total devotion to Shri Maharaj Ji, Balyogeshwar, Satguru, Guru Maharaj Ji, Maharaji, Captain Rawat, Prem Rawat, you name it. The other officially approved idea is that all of us projected our ideas of divinity on poor Maharaji and now he's broken free of that. If only we weren't so hung up in the past, we would see what a brilliant master he really is. Sound familiar? All the best to you in your continuing journey here on planet Earth. It can be a rich and rewarding journey filled with new awakenings. I have benefited greatly from emotional work, heart awakening and non-attributed meditation. There is more on the buffet than Bhakti Burger. Courtesy tip: Your post deserved a new thread and should not have been inserted in a thread with a different topic. Peace, brother. Richard

Subject: Please don't blame the premies From: Jennifer To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:25:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Welcome, California premie guy. I enjoyed reading your post. I did disagree with you on one point in particular and I'll try to explain why here. Maharaji laid a heavy trip on premies. He said he was the Perfect Master come again. I know you said he never told you this, but he told thousands of others and I have the quotes here. (though retyping them here for the thousandth time is pretty boring, so can I skip it?) Maharaji told people to leave their homes and possessions and families. I think he has some responsibility for requiring, coercing that of his devotees. He required a lot from his followers--remember: Satsang, Service and Meditation? Of course people made their own choice to devote to him or not, but they thought this guy was really the Lord--Jesus come again. Many were seriously devoted to him. They did what he asked to get his love, approval, their own cosmic fullfillment as dictated by him, etc. Maharaji may have 'evolved' but he has never apologized or owned up to his past mistakes. Until he admits he's just a regular mortal dude who once said or thought he was God incarnate, many people he bamboozled (who actually realize this happened to them) are going to be disgruntled. In conclusion, it's not fair to blame premies (or ex-premies) for following someone they thought was the LORD. I realize it's sort of the Elan Vital 'party line' but it just doesn't hold water. Does this point of view make sense to you? I know one such devoted person who ended up committing suicide. Maharaji promised bliss and an ending to problems (yes, he promised that in the 70's and I have the quotes on that, too.) Despite her devotion and following exactly what he told her to do, she did not reach nirvana. If she couldn't get happiness from 'the Lord' who promised this, I think she wondered where it could be found. So she checked out. From your post you don't sound like you are devoted very heavily to Maharaji--just took what you needed and screened out the rest. That's good, so long as you remember that not every premie has that same experience. Some are highly devoted and I believe it's not fair to blame them and them alone for that. Maharaji has responsibility in this, too, whether he admits it or not. Take Care, Jennifer

Subject: To Calif. Premie Guy From: Will To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 10:32:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear CPG, A few points: Your perspective is quite understandable given that you received Knowledge in 1981 or so and that you haven't been to Amaroo or haven't really ever been a PAM, and close to the real action. It's easy to have a very benign view of Maharaji if you only know what he wants you to know, from a distance. The difference between the 70's and the 80's is like the difference between, oh, I don't know, let's say valium and a baby aspirin. My analogy might be a bit obtuse but what I mean to say is that the devotion of the 70's approached the Christians in the Coliseum days whereas the whole scence in the 80's was Knowledge Lite, no big deal. You need to allow the 70's people to have a different view than your's. About Jagdeo, there is plenty of direct evidence from the victims themselves. You need to know more about this issue. Maybe Susan or Abi will reply here, although they have been asked to discuss this matter quite enough already. There was actual rape involved, contrary to your current impression. Prem Rawat told Abi's father that he didn't hear anything about the issue before 1999, but that is an absurd lie. I think you will agree with me completely, once you know all the facts involved. This forum has a rather specific purpose and it is not to discuss the nice ideals of truth and bliss. That is certainly not to say that the exes do not maintain the 'heart' side of life in their personal lives. The reason that many of us are quite interested in the sex, drugs, and rock and roll side of Prem Rawat is that such considerations are important if you are kissing the guys feet and living your life according to his direction. Personally, I wouldn't mind hanging out with such a person, but I don't want to devote my innermost heart to him, either. It seems to me that Prem Rawat is still playing the divine savior game, he just doesn't advertise as blatantly as he used to. Just two years ago, he gave the filament analogy in direct response to the question about his divinity. He says now that he isn't the power station itself (God), but that he is the filament inside every person, without him there is no Light of God for anyone. That's pretty much being the current day Jesus, yes? The point that you make that I really strongly disagree with is when you say you will always practice the four techniques because a life of joy and love is what you want. How narrow! I think you should broaden your horizons, if you don't mind my saying so. Go****ly within yourself, by all means, but approach your own mystery as simply as you can, without formulas. Thanks for posting, and being brave enough to take us all on. Good luck.

Subject: To calif premie guy From: Dep =) To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 10:22:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am wrong, but I am guessing no one here wants to hear my thoughts and will immediately flame me, but here goes anyway: People here do want to hear your thoughts. This is an open forum where people can honestly and candidly express themselves (unlike some of the premie sites.) There is no 'party line' here. But some of the posting here forget basic human decency: respect for others even if you don’t agree with them, and giving all the same freedoms you all desire, to pursue what they want of their own free will (yes, free will). Some of the regulars are a bit feisty and cantankerous, but this is an open forum. Anyone with a computer can join in. There is no censorship here except for deliberate troublemakers and scoundrels like Catweasel (whom I happen to enjoy because he doesn’t take any crap). What strikes me most about this forum is no one speaks about seeking truth in their lives, seeking inner peace or contentment. Some do, some don’t. There are some spiritual exes and I’m one. So many talk of the loss of the living situation and the money they gave as opposed to any experience that was either never there or they no longer have. How about some personal responsibility in these areas you guys. If M and K weren't what you wanted, you should have left. if you stayed too long or gave too much, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOU ACTIONS. Agreed! Plenty of premies told me M was the latest Jesus, the only living lord, but he never did. Some of his early quotes do vaguely imply something divinity. I guess I did believe that at first. all I know now or need to know is he is a kind and compassionate man who gives his all to help people, and he has helped me. What about arti? An instrumental version is part of the soundtrack for the new Passages video. The superior power in person . . . ? He obviously is human. If you all know he is human, why do you condemn him for allegedly drinking, for having smoked pot, for having an affair, for eating meat, for being wealthy??? YOU are holding him to a non-human standard, the standard of a saint, when you say he is not. Don’t any of you do those things? What is wrong with them (I do not condone any affairs but he isn’t the first to succumb. I too don’t expect M to be perfect. What I object to is the hypocrisy and the cover-ups. Read the Mishler interview. If I had know about this stuff back in 1979 I would have left much earlier. Child abuse is way too common but is a reflection on the individual perpetrator, not his employer or master. Agreed. He seems to have dropped the name Maharaji, he hasn’t since he was a pre adolescent made any reference to being anything approaching divinity, he has never asked anyone for money, yet you condemn him for things he said at an age when I was playing with playdough and learning to ride a bike. Re-read some of the DLM publications as late as 1983 when M was 25. What was that you said earlier about TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOU ACTIONS. Shouldn't M? This says to me many of you aren’t interested in him changing as you claim, but are interested only in pulling others into the misery you yourselves are in. Agreed, but this is a rather unfortunate characteristic of human nature and it's not restricted to exes. Are any of you happy, striving to improve yourselves, striving to be conscious, and trying to give to your community or to others? I am. Striving anyway. For hundreds of thousands of people, these are some of things Maharaji has helped us to have in our lives, all without respect to our age, religion, origin, financial status, and --- without ever charging us a dime or requesting a donation. Then where did he get the money for the obscenely extravagant lifestyle from? I know it doesn't work for many people. for various reasons. if it didn’t for you 30 years ago, I truly wish you think about spending some time finding something that does instead of wallowing in your own past that you cannot change. Well said! I have been recommending Buddhist vipassana meditation and the Landmark Forum on this site for over a year. I will continue to monitor this forum for a time, still waiting to see something more than people who never mention the experience, and are only now,30 years later, just starting to get their lives together.. Many here still meditate and value the experience. They just have a problem with M’s character, how the money spent, and the secrecy of the organization that supports him. The final straw for me was EV’s response to Jim Sander’s heartfelt letter. I any of the more serious allegations against M are ever proven I would probably disassociate myself with Maharaji, but I would still practice the techniques of knowledge that he so kindly offered to me, because I want to live my life filled with love, peace and joy, and that is what knowledge helps me find in my life.. I disassociated myself from Maharaji because I no longer respect him and no longer like him as a person. From what I’ve heard about him here I simply can’t watch videos any more. I still practice the techniques of knowledge he kindly offered me. I also do other practises such as vipassana, some mantra meditation, visualisation and affirmation, prayer, NLP, and yoga and karma yoga. I am one who definitely wants peace and love in my life. Thanks calif premie guy for your commendable post. It definitely helped further the conversation here.

Subject: To Dep From: Livia To: Dep =) Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:42:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The final straw for me was EV’s response to Jim Sander’s heartfelt letter. What was EV's response to Jim Sander's letter? Love, Livia

Subject: Re: To Dep From: Dep To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:13:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's in the 'best of.' Here is the URL. http://www.ex-premie.org/best/Jim%20Sander's%20open%20letter.htm

Subject: Thanks, Dep and Marshall [nt] From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 13:37:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: It's in the Best of Forum on EPO From: Marshall To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 04:52:18 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Livia, Jim Sanders two letters to EV, and their one insulting,tepid, response can be found on the best of the forum section of EPO. I just got done reading it, and highly reccomend it. It's among the best things I've ever read around here. I can't believe I missed it last year when it originally was posted.

Subject: To Deputy...RE: Child Abuse... From: Cynthia To: Dep =) Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 16:48:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Deputy, I noticed your remarks to Calif-premie-guy and have to point something out to you: Calif Premie Guy said: Child abuse is way too common but is a reflection on the individual perpetrator, not his employer or master. You replied: Agreed. This is not correct. It couldn't be more wrong. The evidence is overwhelming that Jagdeo, while under the power and agya of Maharaji genitally raped girls and committed other sexual abuse acts on innocent, helpless, children. These were the children of god-in-bod, Maharaji-worshipping premies who entrusted their children to be in the care of Jagdeo, a Mahatma of Guru Maharaj Ji, as he was then known. It's clearly an abuse of power and a crime on the part of the perpetrator but also a terrible abuse of power on Maharaj's part for not stopping it the minute he became aware of the problem. These are criminal acts against children. No excuses for Jagdeo obviously, and also no excuse for Maharaji. No, Maharaji is not off the hook for this. And in this process he also made others become complicit in the crime...read EPO accounts, PAMs have lied on his behalf for years about this. I believe that Maharaji knew about this very early on and is responsible for the actions he did not take to stop Jagdeo's abuse of children. To not act, to allow Jagdeo to continue to travel to other countries and communities, placing other children at risk, to allow him to live freely, knowing other children would have contact with Jagdeo was an horrific act of irresponsibility on Maharaji's part. There's no excuse for this. None whatsoever. It illustrates to me that he didn't care one iota about those children and the parents of those children who are/were his devotees. This is not living in the past. I read a book recently, a novel. One character was a Vietnam Vet who suffered from PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. One quote this character said struck me. He said, ''There's nothing post about PTSD. It's right here, in the present.'' This is true. Based upon the many charges and law suits brought by victims of Roman Catholic priests in recent years and recent weeks, it is clear that anyone who covered up for these crimes obviously is not the perpetrator, but complicit in the crime because of the cover up. High ranking priests in the RCC are now being held responsible for covering up the pedophilic acts of some priests against boys and girls entrusted in their care. Some are being forced to resign. Millions and millions of dollars have been paid out in civil suits to these victims. Legislators are now looking at changing laws regarding religious leaders who turn the other way, and send pedophiles to other parishes. We are talking about life-damaging woundings here. This is serious stuff. In the United States, anyone in a position of power over another person, who has knowledge of pedophiles abusing children is required by law to report this. This includes teachers, guidance counselors, health care givers, and morally, IMO any human being who has knowledge of child sexual abuse. Private individuals like myself take it upon ourselves to report such crimes. And they are crimes. Much discussion is now taking place about these RCC priests and why they were harboured instead of turned over to the police. The responsibility lies at Maharaji's feet because at the time he was ''the Living Lord of the Universe'' and had the power to protect those kids. He chose not to do anything. His only interest was his own self-interest. And what about these children who are now grown? Maharaji has just about told them to f**k-off. Of course the perpetrator is the one who should face criminal charges in the due process of law in the US. Being a co-conspirator is another thing altogether. Yet, anyone in the position of power as Maharaji is and was, is responsible for doing NOTHING. No offense intended....much education is needed on this subject. And the taboo is not the abuse...it's in the telling... Best, Cynthia

Subject: Horror ! Re: ... Child Abuse... From: Kerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 07:51:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I did a bit of back reading today and was very upset after reading Abi's Oct. post which I hadn't read previously. I personally know a number of women/children who were sexually abused. One girl still struggling with the trauma of abuse by a cult leader. Abi's experience is violation upon violation upon violation. It doesn't matter what kind of rational, logical, or otherwise spin that can explain or minimise the horror of the violation. The worst part is the sense of violation continues when outsiders know and do nothing but try to explain or justify the powerlessness of doing anything about it. Maharaji has made himself the powerful figure of human salvation. The leader of premies, the object of their faith and trust. He has declared over and over and over his authority. It is just NOT OK that he declines to acknowledge any of the suffering of any of the premies, past or present. I've heard M. wax lyrical about compassion. This man significantly lacks it. Doesn't the mind boggle when you think of the crime.

Subject: Re: Horror ! ... Child Abuse... From: Cynthia To: Kerry Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:49:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Kerry, Tell me about it. The worst part is the sense of violation continues when outsiders know and do nothing but try to explain or justify the powerlessness of doing anything about it. It's not quite the worst part--the worst part is that the abuse happened at all. But denial does add so much to the suffering of an adult survivors plate of issues to deal with. The emotional and physical damage/wounding done to a 7 year old child who is genitally raped by a grown man is beyond comprehension. One thing I do like to emphasize however, is that any child sexual abuse is horrific. It's also very important to not minimize the suffering of other children who didn't 'happen to be raped.' Their suffering counts, too. I try not to get too graphic about this, but inappropriate touching/fondling is serious, too. Cynthia

Subject: Re: To Deputy...RE: Child Abuse... From: ca premie guy To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 17:02:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'It's clearly an abuse of power and a crime on the part of the perpetrator but also a terrible abuse of power on Maharaj's part for not stopping it the minute he became aware of the problem. ' I agree, IF M new about it and didn't move to stop him. I haven't seen any evidence of this except peoples speculation and reports of messages passed verbally through third parties....this is way to weak for me personally. As an analogy, I would throw in prison all the pedophile priests AND all the bishops or cardinals who send them to new cities knowing they have raped children. This is inexcusable.

Subject: Child Abuse... From: janet To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:58:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you say' I agree, IF M new about it and didn't move to stop him. I haven't seen any evidence of this except peoples speculation and reports of messages passed verbally through third parties' then try this on for size: i was living in denver during those years when the sexual abuse by jagdeo was going on and it was discovered. a ripple went around the community and jagdeo was looked at in a new, strange, uncmfortable light. Maharaji damned well had to have gotten the message unmistakeably, because from then on, 'watchers' were assigned to escort jagdeo everywhere he went in the community. He wasn't allowed to go out alone, go anywhere without the company of his 'watcher' to make sure he went where he was supposed to and didn;t try anything funny. How close was I? I lived across the street and went over into the house to do service there, cooking alongside the man in the second floor kitchen of 1560 Race street. I learned indian cooking tips standing next him at the kitchen counter. Is that close enought for you? I babysat kids who went to Unity School Denver. Is that close enough for you? We all wondered when or what maharaji would do about jagdeo, but we ourselves couldn't do any more than whisper to one another about it and stare at him when he was around, and try to be self effacing little devotees when asked to do something.Gurucharnanand told him. Judy Osborne told him. He sent back an answer with Judy Oborne, in fact that 'he was relieved that it was not a new incident'--therefore clearly indicating that the previous reports had already reached him fully'. I s that close enough for you? Or would it take jagdeo raping your own child or grandchild , neice, godchild, for you to finally have the horrible and gut deep realization that all you had heard was/is true? moving for the moment away from jagdeo, and over to the general sentiments and questions you cite in your first letter above, I want to shine a light on some things in it. Do you have any idea how much your questions in that post are not your own? If a hundred people from the same group appeared on your doorstep or in your mailbox or on your phone, each presenting themselves as just wanting to talk to you from their own point of view--and then every single one of them came out with exactly the same words, wouldn't you note it and want to find out where they all were told to say the exact same thing? what are the chances that a hundred people would repeat the exact same phrase to you and resolutely believe it came from their singular unique thoughts?. I ask you this, to make you aware that your thoughts are not actually your own, though you have been cunningly flattered to believe that they are. Every single person who is still practising Knowledge and considers themselves a follower of mr Rawat, who walks in here and addresses us, always utters exactly, verbatim, the same programmed phrases. But we don't reply to them in the exact same sentences. We really do speak in our own words and our own individual thinking. Becuase we can, now. We have worked hard at ridding ourselves of the loss of our individuality, that the cult so intently programmed out of us. Did you ever watch the movie 'Hannibal'? Were you struck by the scene when he slices the guy's brain and sautée's it in front of him ,and serves it to him as a delicacy? Were you shocked by the guy's blithe and childlike interest in it all, unaware of the enormity of what was being done to him? Eagerly participating in his own consumption and the obliteration of his very existence? I don't believe Maharaji's own cruel, removed amusement and contempt for premies is any different from that which Hannibal was evidencing. Consider it at length. It will grow on you. Its really strange for us to listen, because we really do celebrate the uniqueness of expression and thought here. We genuinely crave to listen to each others unique, new and unheard cogitation about this experience we all went thru. i, for one, would love to hear your genuine thinking, your original comprehension of how you reached this watermark in life, how you view and explain and account for the history up till now, and hear your personal process of working thru it and out of it. we endorse you--but as you. not you as stamped out in Rawat's presses, and suited up in rawat's company suit, and speaking rawat's sales jargon. we want to hear what occurs to you when you stop Acting and are left just with what you really feel. you said something in your post about 'staying too long and not recognizing when to leave'/ I will tell you something more accurate. In my case, I didnt leave Maharaji and Knowledge. He left me. I stayed true to the original goals and ethics i took my vows to, when i gave him the reigns of my life. And I watched him diverge farther and farther from those original vows, until the tie fianlly snapped, in april of 2000, after 27 years. For the first time and last time in my life, I got up and walked out on him, while he was talking. He had sold us out. He made it clear that he didn't want me anymore, and I didn't want him. you wonder why we don't just 'move on'. the reason is in your post as well. you ask why don't we get involved in community? we are. very much so. this, here, is a community...and we do this because we also care about the commnity we were in for so long, as well. some of us here knew each other in the physical world before there was a world wide web and PC's. others, we have only come to know on this forum. but we were all part of a community that we had friends in, had years of experiences in, and are still interested in now, though we stand farther away than we used to, and we are not so blinded by the shine as we formerly were. There are still thousands like us, still stuck, still gulled, still conned, still being taken in, by this dishonest, self serving, secretive, selfish, immoral, uncaring, conniving, grasping, cossetted and undeserving man. we care about that. those are our old friends. we want to see them remember themselves, and take back their power. take back their minds. take back their uniqueness. to have back what is rightfully theirs, that does not and never belonged to him. it was never his to take from them. rawat has never learned what is his and what isn't. it's not too late for us--and you-- to teach him that lesson. that's why we don't just 'move along'. the show is not over yet. that's why.

Subject: I've started a folder just for your posts From: Carl To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:56:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your posts often just blast right out of the monitor and into the gut. Blaze away, fearless lady! You (and Tonette too) bring a lot of passionate eloquence to these discussions, to say nothing of macabre analogies (Hannibal . . . eeesh)! Best wishes, Carl

Subject: ****BEST OF FORUM****nomination [nt] From: Livia To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 15:28:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: **BEST OF FORUM**I 2nd the nomination, Janet's*** From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 21:00:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janet's post deserves to be preserved!

Subject: Brava Janet and shocking! From: Richard To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 12:32:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very well said my friend. I could almost feel your heart opening as you spoke. You well and truly are one compassionate and passionate person. How dare premies say we are all a bunch of winey loosers (sic) who 'just didn't get it'? Loved your riff on Hannibal Lechter - brilliant analogy. For a few minutes I thought you may had been kidnapped by a gang of copy editors because your punctuation and use of caps was so very uncharacteristic. But half way through you snapped out of it. ;) Seriously though. The part about Jagdeo having 'watchers' to follow him around was truly shocking. I was in Denver at the time and don't recall it. Granted, so much dissociation went on that I may have filed it under Lila. Plus, at 1560 Race Street, you were closer to Ground Zero than I. That testimony, with more pertinent details (time frame, etc) should be added to the Jagdeo section on EPO.

Subject: Re: Brava Janet and shocking! From: janet To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 16:55:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I laughed so hard i couldn't read on, Richard. I guess like Salam, if I get mad enough, my years of good english training finally take over and break out. I guess you can tell about where i relaxed, and lapsed back into stream of consciousness typing, huh?...well, my sincere apologies. I get impatient with going back and perfecting my work. Maybe its a rebellion against all those years of being harped about 'attaining perfection'! I mean, screw it! I figure everyone on the net speaks typo by now. You know what I mean! Anyway--as for jagdeo, the whispers were there. Word got around. It was known. I remember hearing it in sotto voce in 1560 and other locales, where I was and Jagdeo was to be staying. His 'watchers' were his escorts. I think they were quietly briefed beforehand, though I don't know to what degree of explicitness. I suppose the people assigned to escort him had a varied range of comprehension and understanding, and those on the lower end of the scale might have had a larger index of denial and ignorance, and so were not as sharp and vigilant as others could have been. I can see this as being how Susan had to suffer the insidious moves jagdeo managed to slip in, while they were in the water in Coral Gables, in the 80's, several years after the first reports got around Denver in the later 70's. Strictly speaking, Jagdeo never should have been allowed to be with children after the first reports got out. I would go into the round room at 1560 and see him sitting there in his dhoti and sportshirt in the evening with a bunch of the kids, suppposedly telling stories or leading a singalong with harmonium and what have you, and I would stand there and give him the eye as if to accuse him telepathically 'How did you get these kids in here around you???! They have no business being in here with you! This is not their place! They should all be home with their mothers and fathers, going to sleep, and not being kept here in this weird environment, having to kowtow to the likes of you! And if there were other mahatmas around, like Rajeshwar or Gurucharnanand, they would be bustling about in their typical personalities, trying to make light of it all and gloss over whatever uncomfortable vibes were present. I wonder if they knew Jagdeo's proclivities, and what they might have said to him or let him know, when they were alone, together, without us around. Isn't it weird? Wonder if they let down their high holy man façades and spoke plainly to their peers, when they were alone together behind closed doors. It's too bad we didn't know then all the techniques we know now, for arming children with the power to inform unwanted adult gestures with a clear and irrevocable NO, and to use their voices and their mobility to plainly inform the perps that they will report them, and to walk away irrevocably from them and not allow them to have what they crave. If only we could have taught the kids what we teach them now. They could have busted Jagdeo, horribly and humiliatingly, all over the community, and ruined his sleazy game forever. as my friend likes to put it, 'it takes a child to raise a village'.

Subject: Re: Child Abuse... From: Cynthia To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:51:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Janet, Well, you said everything I could possible think of in response to CAguy--thanks. Excellent post, btw, Love, Cynthia

Subject: To California Dumb Ass From: Marshall To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 21:37:58 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Come on California Kook You keep complaining about how no one acted strongly enough regarding the 'Jagdeo situation'. Down lower you ask 'why didn't anyone send M a letter?' Are you serious? Even you have to admit gmj is not the easiest person to 'get a hold of' Read the entire story, it's all right there in the best of forum. Somehow you managed to find out partial details of the Jagdeo rapes and the cyclist accident/murder. Why didn't you finish the relevant posts? Do you have A.D.D. or something? Finish the research before you come here and make an ass out of yourself(and by proxy, all PWK's). As far as your slurs against my personal life, which you know nothing about, you couldn't be more wrong. Everything is fine in my life and getting better every day. Sorry to dissapoint you Cal guy but I'm far from 'miserable' and just because I'm not riding a fluffy pink cloud and spouting a bunch of tired platitudes doen't mean otherwise. I'm sick of all this 'Why can't you guy's talk about positive experiences with knowledge, blah blah blah.' This is not the I've got my head in the sand and refuse to recognize reality staring me right in the face website. Sorry. Go away you apologist, revisionist creep. I personally don't care that you are 'turned off' to this website by all the unfriendly vibes Fuck Off, There now THAT'S a REAL obscenity, you looser!

Subject: Re: To California Dumb Ass From: calif premie guy To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 22:15:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How charming. I am sure you are influencing lots of people to leave their pursuit of happiness to be just like you. I have found that those with limited vocabulary and defective mental ecumen tend to resort to obsenities and insults. For your information, all it takes to send a letter is an address and a stamp.

Subject: Re: To California Insulting, patronising guy From: Marshall To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 23:20:06 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Look, you started with the insults, remember? I personally found your first post to be insulting, not to mention patronising and ill researched. So a bunch of ex's fell for your passive aggressive B.S. and treated you with kid gloves. So what? Just because someone calls a spade a spade doesn't make them unhappy, get it? Are you trying to build yourself up by knocking others down? Sounds familiar, PWK's versus People of the world(who aren't in the 'special' club) I don't care if you are charmed by me or not, this isn't a popularity contest. Limited vocabulary? Ouch, I'm so insulted. Gee, what does mental ecumen mean? I had to sell my dictionary. By the way have you had a chance to actually READ any of the myriad(is that a big enough word for you?) testamonies and eyewitness accounts that are all over the place(EPO)? Or do you prefer to just slog through the mud here with all of us disgruntled, angry, quitters who just didn't 'get it'. Also I'm not trying to influence anybody to do anything(unlike you, as far as I can see). I'm just calling 'it' as I see it. Actually at this point I hope you stay stuck in never-neverland forever, and by the looks of things you probably will. As far as calling me foul mouthed, obscene, etc. Duh, whatever!(is that California enough for you?) and, worrying about angry ex's hunting down your family? Absolutely ridiculous. Remember that Kinks tune? Paranoia, Mind destroyer! Wake up and smell the coffee, California guy, before it's too late!!!

Subject: Re: To California Insulting, patronising guy From: ca premie guy To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 23:48:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NO , I did not start insulting you; read back if you forgot already. Yes Id did respond. I have enough street left in me that its hard to turn the other cheek against blatant agressive behavior. This rarely happens because I treat people with respect even if I do not agree with them. I have read through a lot of the stuff on here; some others have been helpful in directing me to other information I might have over looked. All you have done is insult me. People who insult others they haven't met or know through a medium such as this are pure cowards. I learned how to deal with bullies like you in the 4th grade. BOO! ! hehe...you can come back from under your desk now; I won't hurt you. Go away; I am bored with you now.

Subject: Re: To California Insulting, patronising guy From: AV To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:00:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why don't you treat the abused and rejected with respect too, mate? At least find out their pains and causes of pain before you dribble cliches and unfounded suppositions all over the place, and as for Marshall, he's just living up to his name, turning it all up to no. 11 to get thru'........

Subject: Get real From: Jim To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 00:03:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From this post: NO , I did not start insulting you; read back if you forgot already. From your first post: I hate to disallusion you, Jim, but when the author checks EPO he will see a buch of whining, name calling, immature people ranting about M but showing no evidence, much less relevce to what he is doing. 'I did NOT have sex with that woman!'

Subject: Re: Get real From: ca premie guy To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 00:17:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I referred to that comment in a previous post, and apologized if it did offend anyone. I was describing what an objective outsider would see; maybe too harshly. Try and take an objective look at a sampling of the posts here and tell if you see something different. Some posts are intelligent observations; many many contain fat jokes and insults. I am pointing out that with this kind of content no intelligent person will take most of you folks seriously. I am beginning to see most of you don't like you insult-fest interupted for real discussion. I really appreciate those of you who are not like this.

Subject: Re: Get real From: Jennifer To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:44:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'with this kind of content no intelligent person will take most of you folks seriously' You got a point. On the other hand, as an experiment, a couple of days I surfed around the Internet reading various controversial topic forums--religious, philosophical, political etc. (In other words, I didn't bother with home improvement, baking or dog grooming) Each one of these forums that allowed for free speech contained arguments, misunderstandings, personality conflicts and flame wars. It's just human nature and certainly not 'patented ex behavior' as some have suggested here. Hey, guys were even fighting on the Krisnamurti site instead of spending their time experiencing their own reality. Krishnamurti is probably rolling over in his grave right now. snicker. My advice is to read who you want and skip the rest.

Subject: Darshan, do you still kiss his feet? From: hamzen To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:51:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Care to explain why he's still doing darshan? Want to see the quotes from the last two years where he makes it explicit he still sees himself as 'the' master'? Why have you forgotten his speeches where he was explicit in the 70's that he was the incarnation of god, and why haven't you read those on EPO? And for your information re Jagdeo there was rape.

Subject: Experience tells me the exact opposite From: Jim To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 00:36:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been here since the start and have received lots of feedback from objective outsiders, one way or another. Once they understand that we actually, literally WORSHIPPED Maharaji, they most certainly do appreciate the pleasure we take in calling a spade a spade. Face it, we used to call his form 'golden'. Men and women alike swooned over his 'beauty'. He was none less than the Avatar, come to save us from our selves ... it was a real, gopi love-fest. Objective outsiders invariably think that he's repugnant looking and viacriously relish the joy we have in finally saying so given what we went through.

Subject: Calif Premie Guy - What are you doing here? From: Marshall To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:08:39 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Do you have any idea how stupid you look right now? Do you even see any of the irony in all of this stupidity? I really doubt it. Here we are thirty years later, arguing over the internet, something that wasn't even invented yet, back in the day. Did you ever imagine this? When you signed on with 'THE LORD' back in '81? That it would come to this? As you sit back and monitor 'your lame-o thread' responding to every single post obsessively, your objective visitors or whoever, are laughing their asses off at you. Why are you so worried about how 'we' appear to outside, objective, observers anyway? Who are you? Or more precisely who do you think you are? Then, you have the nerve to accuse others of just wanting to insult each other and argue. Exactly what you have been doing all night! So, now you are also a hypocrite. Great. You want to butt heads with Jim Heller? That's crazy! and me as well? To boot! What's wrong with you? You question my 'mental ecumen'? Do you mean accumen, maybe? Get with the program Cal Premie Guy. One more time, Wake up and smell the coffee! Goodnight Sir!

Subject: Calif Premie guy is here From: The Doubtmaker To: Marshall Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 07:19:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: because he has doubts. Doubts about some of the things he has read and heard about his 'master'. Doubts that his 'master' has tried to get him to repress. Allow him to pursue those doubts, allow him to seek the truth. He has made one step on that journey, allow him his pursuit. I believe he will find it here, in and amongst the 'whining' and 'bullying'. Or maybe he'll just stop doubting, as all good premies should do, and go back to the lotus feet of the 'perfect master of these times'.

Subject: Re: To Deputy... Child Abuse... From: Cynthia To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 17:43:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Ca Premie Guy, There is anecdotal evidence that Maharaji did indeed know about the abuse in the past. In any event, he knows about it now and won't talk. A lot have gone on behind the scenes to continue to cover the Jagdeo issue up and Maharaji has refused to answer any questions or come clean about the specificity of what he knew and when he knew it. To me, that is very self-serving and ignores the needs of the adult victims. I'm not here to argue this issue with you. I'm simply trying to point out the obvious. It takes a bit of looking beyond how Maharaji portays himself to both premies and more recently the public. Btw, I've read your posts and hope you are well. Grrrrr....about those RCC priests, for sure! Best, Cynthia:)

Subject: Re: Calif premie From: Neville To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 09:06:11 (EDT) Email Address: nrbarnes:btopenworld.com Message: Calif premie, you sound way too smart to stay on a sinking ship--and it is sinking, relentlessly. That much is obvious to me, and I've watched M over a period of thirty years. Frankly, M's whole project has been dead for a long time--certainly as far as the West is concerned--and is only going to keep moving while the momentum lasts. The Captain needs you, but you don't need him. Get off now, while land is in sight. --Neville

Subject: CALIF PREMIE GUY From: WHY POST NOW? To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 09:03:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And in this thread? Trying to derail the subject and deflect attention away? Me thinkest you are nothing but left over Elan Vital employee or maybe this is your new position with the 'Foundation'? At any rate, I find you completely transparent in trying to run this thread off the page.

Subject: Re: CALIF PREMIE GUY From: ca premie guy To: WHY POST NOW? Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 16:06:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please do not insult your own intelligence. Last i heard there were i believe 3 employees of EV; betcha less now. I don't remotely resemble any of them. I would consider several points I made as somewhat critical of M or EV; if they were going to post something they could do much better than i did. Why now? Why not...i have been reading for sometime and the reactions to the article by attacking the credibility of the magazine was telling to me and prompted me to write. I agree much of it was off-topic directly, and therefore maybe I should have started a new thread. Excuse please my breach of forum etiquit of which I am unfamiliar.

Subject: CA. Premie Guy-I'd like to talk to you... From: Jim Sander To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 08:04:03 (EDT) Email Address: sjimsander@aol.com Message: Hey CA. premie guy- I resect you for posting here,and would seriously like to talk to you in an open, honest way about m and k. I was a devoted, long time supporter for almost 30 years, until I realized many, many things that made me realize what a cult I was really in, and how much had been distorted or hidden from me by m and the organizations around him. Yes, information and the internet are very powerful and important. Ideally, there should be nothing to hide, although in this case, there is plenty that was hidden and is still being hidden. If you want to know more about my perspective, feel free to read my open letters to EV and the NC community in the 'best of forum' section, along with the EV replies. I'd seriously like to talk to you sometime about this, mainly because it negatively impacts so many people lives. These people have a right to know if the 'team' they are on, and the 'captain' of that team have done things that can hurt their personal lives. This is clearly the case, and if you have any doubts about this, I can tell you personally more about it. If you are sincere, and serious about an honest dialog, please e-mail and I would love to communicate further with you. I will be back in touch on Thursday of this week. Sincerely, Jim Sander PS: Your real name would be helpful, although I understand people's need to feel anonymous. Please respond only if you are willing to openly talk, and not solely to advance the 'premie agenda'.....there are very serious issues here that reveal a lot about the man and the people around him....when you do not honestly question these things, and simply go along with them, you are inadvertently endorsing them, which can have serious repurcussions in your life, without you knowing it at first...many people have gone through this (I can tell you numerous personal stories), and it is helpful to know what you are involved with BEFORE you get others involved....

Subject: Re: CA. Premie Guy-I'd like to talk to you... From: ca premie guy To: Jim Sander Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 16:21:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your respectful reply... Id be happy to discuss the issues, here for now. While anyone who knows me will probably recognize me from my post, I'd rather not send my name or email addy to any of you at this point. from there it is one easy step to find where I live with my family, and several posters here sound a bit angry and I wouldn't take that risk. I do emphathise with the pain so many of your feel, and I didn't mean to belitte it as some have said. I was characterizing what an 'outsider' might see when reading this forum. While some of you are respectful and well organized in your posts, others are constantly telling fat jokes and insults and angry tirades. These will never gain anyones respect or atttention. I posted because I wanted to see if there was more on these issues than I have found here...issues that will disturb me greatly if they are true. I believe in freedom: freedom of speech, freedom to pursue what makes us happy as long as it doesn't harm others. I like that you guys are voicing what you think is true, but I don't like that you try to disrupt others from practicing what is true for them. Maybe I have more faith in the abilities of individuals to separate right from wrong for themselves. More later.

Subject: What is that? A curse? From: Jim To: Jim Sander Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 11:17:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I resect you .... ?? :)

Subject: Ex-squeeze me, premie-ji? From: Inside Edition To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 07:42:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS'??!! Might you suggest the same to the living lord of the foundation. Why do you think rawat just reincarnated? It will not work, because you cannot polish a turd.

Subject: To Calif Premie: answer to your post is belowr From: AV To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 07:10:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: to calif premie guy From: PatW To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 05:28:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't have time at this moment to reply to you as fully as I would like unfortunately, but here goes... quickly... Re. Cyclist. and all Mike Dettmers reports. His statements bothered me too and so I called him and asked if he'd mind if we'd meet up to discuss. I felt that in a 'one-to-one' talk I would be able to gauge where he was coming from and if he was telling the truth. I found Mike to be very forthcoming, clear and frankly believed everything he told me - which he has largely reported here. Jagdeo: everybody - including 'senior premies' - recognises that the cases of abuse by him were true. Ask a PAM. Exes being bitter and not pursuing inner peace... Not entirely true. Some are bitter yes. However, one has only to be admitted to the alternate private forum called 'Recent Exes' to witness the continued sincere efforts of people to find Truth in their lives 'post Maharaji'. I still do the meditation techniques and enjoy the feelings derived thereof but I reject the notion that Maharaji's grace was or is a mysterious factor in 'unveiling' the experience nor do I feel that I owe him an enormous debt of gratitude as he has been keen to imply is the case. I am as committed as ever to pursuing, and promoting truth and integrety. 'RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOU ACTIONS' Exactly. The reason I post here is because, as a premie, I had an increasing sense of responsibility towards myself and society to do a thorough reality check on my position with Maharaji. That started off with 'warning signs' - seeing dysfunction amongst premies and then later, recognising that the dysfunction included Maharaji. So Maharaji has great responsibilty and accountability as one who is in a postion of trust, power and influence in my opinion. I believe it can be shown that he has not behaved altogether appropriately for one in such a position. In short I believe he owes some explanation and apology to those who he encouraged to surrender their lives and dedicate the fruits of their actions to him and he, by any human standards, should seek to make some reparation and to help those who have found themselves 'damaged' in their lives, or who basically got a raw deal. At the very least he needs to acknowledge the problems that his past course of action has led to, instead of hopping around re-inventing himself hoping that people will not notice the trail of disillusioned people he leaves behind after each switch. I don't buy the notion that people just can't 'keep up with his brilliant changes'. The Leaders magazine article.... is a good example of how Maharaji, sorry Prem Rawat is constantly changing his image to target and court a new audience. Not six months ago I was taliking with a premie friend who is very 'involved'. He was not a premie until the late 80's and has been successfully impressed that the Indian trips and ashrams problems were all the fault of premies and that Maharaji was never into that stuff. I was appalled at the success that the revisionist campaign had achieved in convincing him of this. It served very well to make him very antagonistical and scornful of me, who gently tried to introduce to him a more correct history- one which I lived through. Anyway I made the mistake of using the word 'Leader' to describe Maharaji (which seemed fair at the time) which provoked a hail of contempt as if I was really out of touch. No, Maharaji is NOT a leader...no, no... Gotta go now...I could go on!

Subject: Thoughtful Post, answer question for me please? From: Tonette To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 05:19:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So you have had K for 21 years, that puts you receiving knowledge somewhere about 1981 or so. I recall that was about the time all the heavy devotional stuff was winding down considerably. In fact, have you ever been through the darshan line? Just curious. But what I would really like to ask: Since you say you have a family I take that to mean you have children. Would you be pleased or would you enourage your child/children to receive knowledge? If so why? I know that's two questions, perhaps 3 or 4 but since you spent so much time with your perspective in your post, I trust you don't mind scripting off a quick reply. Thank You, Tonette

Subject: Re: Thoughtful Post From: ca premie guy To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 16:34:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1980 I received K...still a lot of heavy indian theme stuff in the air...from premies, mostly. Most people I told about K were turned off by this. Yes I have had darshan. I feel a lot of gratitude to M andenjoyed the opportunity to see him close up. Many did not kiss his feet; I didn't feel I had to at all but I wanted to and did. For me it was a show of gratitude and appreciation, although a cultural tradition that is very off-putting to most westerners. My kids are relatively young. They know about M but we never even remotely propose to them that this is something for them. Neither do we hide it. I very much want my kids to be happy, in whatever way works for them. If this is through K, great; if not, fine, as long as they are happy. I really don't care, except I know know. works for me and I have seen it work in others. I have many friends who don't have knowledge and are very happy and I feel no urge to get them to try it. Probably some aspects of the early 70's environment would have turned me off, especially the early treatment of women by Mahatmas as I heard 4th hand or so. Who knows if the pull of the message would have been enough for me to overcome the atmosphere at that time.

Subject: Interesting. One more question please, From: Tonette To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 05:09:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, you're not ramming the idea of needing a master or the likes as a necessity in being happy to your very young and impressionable children. But you don't deny that your children love and idolize you. And I'm sure you try and teach and guide them through your actions, words and deeds. They do look up to you and children have a very quirky way of knowing way more about a parents thoughts and feelings than we realize. And they are perfect little copy cats, especially while young during their formative years. That said, here's my question or two or three. Do they watch videos of M when you play them at your house? If not actively watching, are they in the same room? How about your music CD's of M's music? You guys listen to them in the car or at home? But here's the question I really want to ask. If your adolescent or pre adolescent child came home one day (that day is not as far off as it seems, believe me) and let's say, told you they had just joined the church of sceintology and were very happy, would you be okay with that? How about if one of them became a Muslum and was associating with a mosque that focused on the concept of Jihad as a means to the greasest happiness of all, 76 virgins and an inside track to Allah? Sound cool as long as they are happy? Remember Heaven's Gate and those poor souls 'Leader,' those folks not only seemed happy they were all quite intelligent and successful in the world. Bet they died happy too, as well as drunk and drugged. How would you feel about that? My point here is this, I think you owe it to yourself but more importantly to your most precious children to answer the question about Maharaji that you seem to be inclined to dismiss because of no hard proof. Documents, ect. You seem able to dismiss the satsangs satements he made in front of thousands of people, probably some you even heard with your own ears. Don't believe any of it. You are not in a cult. Maharaji is not a liar. Maharaji is a generous, loving human being who is helping lots of people. He's helping allright. Helping himself to people's money and hearts. He's not a disguised con man. Knowledge is an inner experience of God, my soul. Whatever. After all, it's not important who or what I am endearing, who my Master really is, it's my experience, my happiness that's important. It works for me. Right? Besides without proof, we could be wrong. Listen, you can do what you see fit. Believe what you want. Maybe if you write Maharaji and ask him about this stuff, your concerns about the rapes and cover ups, ect he'll tell you what really happpened. Better yet, email him. That's quick. Or a phone call is probably the easiest. Why not do that and when you get a reply would you be so kind to post it here and straighten all of us out? Someone who's had k for 21 years M must at least of heard of you. And you did do some high level work for him although not in his presence. Yes, best go straight to the source to find out the truth. Good luck and I do hope you are able to sort this all out. You know this but never delay in giving your children a daily hug and kiss. Leave no room for doubt in their minds that you love them. Regards, Tonette

Subject: Re: Interesting. One more question please, From: CPG To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 16:25:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I bet you are a mom, tonette. I probably hug and kiss my kids too many times a day, but thanks. Yes, I want very much for my kids to be happy, but of course not by being involved in something that hurts others or themselves, or anything dangerous, such as drugs or something very risky. I know what you all will say so let me save you the time: m has hurt you...thats why I am here investigating. we dont really watch many videos at home, don't listen too often to CDs (tired of most of them) and when we do it is at night after they have gone to bed usually. We have a couple of small pictures around of M. We aren't at all like what a lot of you probably remember from the 70's: all M all the time, shoving it down everyones throat. Not at all. Many people in my life don't even know about it. We usually watch the weekly broadcasts. when they were at 1pm on sundays (usually my only day off and I spend it with the kids) they started complaining 'not the broadcast AGAIN' so we tape it often and watch it later. Now it is on at 5 so that works better. we do watch it with them around occasionally; they pretty much ignore it. They don't seem to give a hoot one way or the other. if anything it is slightly negative: they didn't like so much when I would go out of town for a few days for an event. I never really tell them much about it; it is totally up to them when they get older. As for them joining some dangerous group or cult : I would always check anything like that out thoroughly, and give them my strong opinion, but when they are adults it will be their own choice. What you suggest is exactly what I am doing here: not only checking out all your allegations but thowing myself in here to dig up even more, like (I think it was) Janet's post. (Thanks for that Janet). Many accuse me of spouting the party line, but believe me, there is no party line about you ex's; no one talks about you at all except with regard to possible event disruption. Can't talk to any premies about this stuff, I have tried some; actually if I am not satisfied by what I find here I will reach out to some others and see what they have to say. So I am here to investigate soley for myself. Once I reach a preliminary conclusion If I feel it necessary I probably will write him about it. I wouldn't expect an answer; he has never contacted me before personally. He probably knows who I am but I have had very little personal contact with him. But if I do that, I would expect to be cut off from doing service if the opportunity arises in the future. At this point I have't yet reached that conclusion. Thanks.

Subject: You're worth more than that. From: Tonette To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 04:55:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am finding this dialog with you most interesting. Yes you are right, I am a mother of two beautiful children. A boy now 17 and girl just 11. Married to their dad for 25 years. He's been an ex now for 2 years after practicing k faithfully for 25 years or so. His final drip was composed from several factors: Partly from reading EPO, the drug and alcohol use he could of cared less about. The wealth, so what. What got to my husband was when he read the accounts written by close people around M, of the lack of basic human decency on M's part. Stuff like M never read the letters sent to him by devotees, in fact, M just trashes them. I'm sure he has someone check to make sure there are no funds inside first. The Jagdeo coverup, Mishler's interview, Deca and the treatment of the premies there, the way in which the ashrams were closed and the callous treatment of those premies, ect. But it all came to a head after a program held on Father's Day in Alexandria, VA. My husband realized that M has never cared for any of his followers. Especially in the way that M has and does claim. He's pulled off the greatest ruse. He's told the worst sort of lies, well into his forties. He's a user and a con and when you stop to think, just what has he done in the way of any good works? See any floors of a hospital named after him? A functioning, working charity that actually delivers a service? See, since M runs a cult, my husband was never privy to any of this information about what M is really like. Just your basic premie trying his best to maintain his experience of k by practicing in the way he was told by the Master. He never believed M was divine actually but did wonder if M wasn't something quite unique. Wondered about exactly what was the experience in meditation. Could never coherantly expain nor understand it but it must be something. Well, my guy has not meditated for quite awhile now and has cut the teter of M's strings from his heart and mind. The change I see in him is remarkable. Me? I received k in 1976 just prior to the Atlantic City program. I had darshan and was so disappointed by the utter lack of experience that I wanted to go thru again. Back then darshan was described by initiators and even M's wife as the 'opportunity' to connect with who M really was. Had nothing to do with gratitude really. M gave satsang and then at the end of the program did his little dance routine with his wife. I thought 'my god' what have I gotten myself into? But it was too late for me. I was living in a premie house, age 19, attending school at this location, all my friends were premies, had just moved out of my parents house. There was just no extracting myself, ect. I married shortly thereafter and attended satsang and events, called festivals, for the next 7 years. I thought k was special and was enabling me to spiritually develope. My drips were many and often and the advise I got was you're not meditating enough. What allowed me to walk away without the help of EPO, nor any ex friends, was two fold. The birth of my son, which caused me to take a good hard look at myself, my beliefs, my direction. I liked most of what I saw but when I added up all the drips I knew that in spite of what everyone was expressing M was not a very nice person. And his little organization certainly hadn't spread k everywhere. In fact, I remember thinking gee, if it looks like a cult, smells like a cult, feels like a cult but you're not quite sure if it acts like a cult you had better step back and wait and see. So I did. I maintained peace in my home with my husband by not challenging too often or too forcefully his continued practice of k. We got on. It wasn't until I came here that I knew for sure, 100%, that I was right. I thought it only fair to give you a little of what I am about since you have been so forthwrite in your replies to me. What I want to point out to you arises from a statement you made. ' I wouldn't expect an answer; he has never contacted me before personally. He probably knows who I am but I have had very little personal contact with him. But if I do that, I would expect to be cut off from doing service if the opportunity arises.' So, you would be cut off, punished if you will, if you dare to ask M an unpleasant question. And you know that M will not give you the time of day, not an answer to either a letter or email. That is not someone I would want to associate with nor help for that matter. Why don't you see yourself as worth a little consideration and trust from your master of 21 years? You're a human being and a valid one at that. Do you think M sees you like that? Do his actions support any evidence that he has any regard for you what-so-ever? And what is the monetary value of the skill that you are donating to M? Your time? Your self worth? Not to mention the time and attention and possibly money M is extracting from you that should be focused on your family, your children. I dare ask what is this service that you value so much? And dear god, CPG, you are entitled, yes entitled, as a human being, to respect, communication and the truth from the man that calls himself your master. You're worth far better treatment. You need answers and if you don't think M and what he is, what he stands for isn't rubbing off on your children, think again. BTY, you can never love your children too much. Get in all the kisses and hugs while you can because there comes a time when you'll have to ask for those. Just wait until you get the drift that they are slightly embarrassed to be seen with you in front of their friends. Best of luck, I hope you will answer this post. Kind regards, Tonette

Subject: Beautiful, Tonette. I hope everyone reads it. From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 04:17:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like you, I left because of personal reasons. To me stuff like the socalled 14 objections simply confirmed my convictions that Rev Rawat was just another fake preacher-man in it for the money. You said: ''So, you would be cut off, punished if you will, if you dare to ask M an unpleasant question. And you know that M will not give you the time of day, not an answer to either a letter or email. That is not someone I would want to associate with nor help for that matter. Why don't you see yourself as worth a little consideration and trust from your master of 21 years? You're a human being and a valid one at that. Do you think M sees you like that? Do his actions support any evidence that he has any regard for you what-so-ever? There's this funny paradox here. You're supposed to have a LIVING master but what good is a living master who doesn't answer his mail? ''But,'' protests the earnest premie; ''the connection is spiritual.'' Well, when a living master doesn't answer his mail, you might as well have a dead one. Well, aren't the dead ''spiritual?'' I don't think you can get more spiritual than dead. :C) I hope you save this bit to add to your Journey: ''Me? I received k in 1976 just prior to the Atlantic City program. I had darshan and was so disappointed by the utter lack of experience that I wanted to go thru again. Back then darshan was described by initiators and even M's wife as the 'opportunity' to connect with who M really was. Had nothing to do with gratitude really. M gave satsang and then at the end of the program did his little dance routine with his wife. I thought 'my god' what have I gotten myself into? But it was too late for me. I was living in a premie house, age 19, attending school at this location, all my friends were premies, had just moved out of my parents house. There was just no extracting myself, ect. I married shortly thereafter and attended satsang and events, called festivals, for the next 7 years. I thought k was special and was enabling me to spiritually develope. My drips were many and often and the advise I got was you're not meditating enough. What allowed me to walk away without the help of EPO, nor any ex friends, was two fold. The birth of my son, which caused me to take a good hard look at myself, my beliefs, my direction. I liked most of what I saw but when I added up all the drips I knew that in spite of what everyone was expressing M was not a very nice person. And his little organization certainly hadn't spread k everywhere. In fact, I remember thinking gee, if it looks like a cult, smells like a cult, feels like a cult but you're not quite sure if it acts like a cult you had better step back and wait and see. So I did. I maintained peace in my home with my husband by not challenging too often or too forcefully his continued practice of k. We got on. It wasn't until I came here that I knew for sure, 100%, that I was right.

Subject: Re: You're worth more than that. From: CPG To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 00:00:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Tonette I t's funny how sometimes you can tell so much from someone by what they right. I get a sense you are a very beautiful person, and a womderful mother. I know your kids are lucky. Some parts are hard to respond to, because the things that bother you are different from what I am trying to get answers to. yes, if M really treats people badly in person it would bother me. I guess it is hard for me to get worked up about that if I haven't experienced it myself, or maybe it just isnt as important as the potentially criminal issues that others have charged. But you really made me think about my reluctance to write M. That was I think my delay in responding; now I know once I get specific questions formulated I will. To know you could be cut off because you raise questions is not right. I don't know if i will get an answer or not. i do enjoy helping, doing service, because the last couple years it really changed, in my experience, from the kinds of frustrating experience i described to Pat. I have done various things, but the last couple years I was in a position of responsibility, nothing really high level, with a new team that was very bright, willing to question assumptions, capable, and efficient. Big change. It seemed like we had a good thing going, but late last year we were all fired or resigned . I can see now that even though we were efficient we were part of a big machine that M didn't want incumbering him. After feeling at loose ends a bit, I realized i still need to do service, even if M doesn't give me the opportunity. There are so many things I would like to help with in my community, like helping schools in neighborhoods where they hardly have enough paper much less teachers. You are right, the value of the time I gave was enormous. I haven't been able to give much money at all especially lately. Things are going ok but money goes to my family first. I haven't given to him directly in years because I figure he is doing a lot better than I am. I know from working in events and seeing all the costs that most events lose money, and EV is lucky to break even on a whole tour, and then only things to a couple large donations. So I try to at least pay my way, but sometimes can't do even that. Bottom line is I have always been very clear about my boundaries there. Even so , when i look back over the last year my business would have been much further ahead if I hadn't been doing service. I think about the only things my kids think about M is that it takes me away from them sometimes, but they know it helps me be happy. We are are very happy, loving family and I thank god for that everyday (not Maharaji). doesnt mean life is always easy; i have enough problems for 20 people, but i am still happy, tho i could do with a lot less stress. All this aside, I do not want to be a part of anything or associated with anyone who hhas committed or is committing immoral acts. Immoral is something each person has to define and i think I have made my value clear. i don't care if he smokes cigaretttes. It is stupid even if it is my teachher who is doing it. Thanks so much...I really enjoy what you have to say.

Subject: You're worth more than that, CPG From: PatC To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 04:40:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're a saint, CPG! And I'm serious. You wrote: ''I do enjoy helping, doing service, because the last couple years it really changed, in my experience, from the kinds of frustrating experience i described to Pat. I have done various things, but the last couple years I was in a position of responsibility, nothing really high level, with a new team that was very bright, willing to question assumptions, capable, and efficient. Big change. It seemed like we had a good thing going, but late last year we were all fired or resigned. I can see now that even though we were efficient we were part of a big machine that M didn't want incumbering him. After feeling at loose ends a bit, I realized i still need to do service, even if M doesn't give me the opportunity. There are so many things I would like to help with in my community, like helping schools in neighborhoods where they hardly have enough paper much less teachers.'' That's why I got involved in the premie committee too. If you're feeling fortunate, you want to share your good fortune with others. I highlighted this bit, ''we were all fired or resigned. I can see now that even though we were efficient we were part of a big machine that M didn't want incumbering him,'' because I would like to know more about that. My take on it is that in 2000 it look like glasnost and perestroika in Rawat's org but it soon became apparent that it was not and that the committees were a failure. Or were they a success? Lenin said that committees were for keeping the idiots busy while you restructured the org and were meant to DELAY not expedite matters. Lenin also said that the end justified the means. I often excused and rationalized M's behavior because I thought the end (sharing K with others) justified the means. Yes, you are right - Tonette and I did question the whole thing for different reasons than you. She and I left because it was obviously a personality cult. You want some hard answers to your hard questions. Fair enough. To each his own. You're a damn saint but I like saints. :C)

Subject: CPG:Don't you GET IT?... From: Jim Sander To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 18:15:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey CPG: To quote you from above: 'If I feel it necessary I will probably write him about it.....I wouldn't expect an answer.....but if I do that, I would expect to be cut off from doing service if the opportunity arises in the future...' You already know the score, but do you REALLY SEE how bizarre and cultish this whole scene is, and how you buy into it? Have you really woken up to the facts, or are you just reciting them? What kind of 'teacher of self-knowledge' does not allow questions? (Would Socrates have taken that approach?) What kind of 'teacher of self knowledge' teaches you to avoid 'doubts', or cut yourself off from an entire part of yourself and call it 'the mind' (with a connotation that it is something evil, like the devil...) What kind of 'master' allows you to serve him, but only if you don't ask him honest questions that might confront him? BTW, your asking of these questions might simply be your only protection from his sleazy lifestyle ruining your reputation.....think about how people will talk about you (most likely behind your back) when you recommend 'k' to them, and they take a spin around EPO for awhile......if he cares about you as a student, wouldn't he address these issues, so that you don't get hurt? If he wants you on the team, why is he 'setting you up' like this? (Sure, he doesn't sit at home at night and plot how to screw up your life, but his absloute and steadfast DENIAL of these issues and REFUSAL to deal with them, potentially hurts you.....as for himself, he's got high priced lawyers to defend himself if need be, but what will he do for you when his denial screws up your life?) What kind of teacher should get your respect when he lies and lies and lies again, only to blame it on other people? (Simply look at old quotes vs. new quotes, and his recent explanation that the Indian mahatmas and 70's premies spread the concepts that he was god.....according to him, he didn't do it, they did it.....but who gave the satsangs with these 'concepts' in them?) Should a liar and manipulator get love or respect, or be worshipped as he still is?( you won't find darshan and arti talked about at too many intro programs,even though it's still practiced by the faithful) Shouldn't an honest person question him on these things? Do you see how his denial becomes your denial when you refuse to honestly deal with it? Do you see how this lack of ethics destroys any possibility for sincere honest people to ever get into this? Do you see how his denial of these things, coupled with the unquestioning mindset of the average premie, produces this bizarre cultish behavior? No one calls him on this stuff, because they are afraid to, and it subsequently weakens their life and morality as well. Premies live in fear of the truth about maharaji.(ex:if I were to write him about this, he might cut me off from service...) WHY would you want to serve someone like this? Just wondering, Jim Sander PS: BTW, none of this is meant to be angry or directed at you personally in a maliscious way, but I do find it astounding that people who claim to be seekers fo truth are scared of it..... all the best to you, and I respect you greatly for even being here...

Subject: Re: Interesting. One more question please, From: Livia To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 17:10:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi CPG, My advice to you would be to check out EPO and read as much as you can there. I did, and it was enormously informative and illuminating. I didn't even discover this forum for a while - I was too busy reading all the archives from the older forums, some of which I found utterly absorbing. Especially read Mike Dettmers, and John Mcgregor - they have a lot to say. And Bob Mishler - ironic to read him now and see what sense he is making whereas when I first read that interview I thought he had totally lost the plot...I guess I was still looking through premie-tinted glasses... And read the 'best of forums' and all the stuff under different subject headings, until you start building up a clearer picture of what has really been going on. All this will take you a while, but I do think it's worth it. Personally I decided it was the only course to take; to become properly informed for the first time, and make up your own mind. It may make you feel quite wobbly for a while, because what you may be doing is deconstructing a mindset that has sustained you over many years. I guess the more you have invested of your life, the more painful it can be. Good luck in your quest to discover the truth. All the best to you, Livia

Subject: rAWAT at 16 approved of this song From: Kilgore To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:13:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and was accepting cash in exchange for the privelege of kissing his foot You said, 'he hasnt since he was a pre adolescent made any reference to being anything approaching divinity, he has never asked anyone for money, yet you condemn him for things he said at an age when i was playing with playdough and learning to ride a bike.'-in 1974 he was 16(not pre-adolescent)when the song below topped the Cult Charts --- --- --- --- --- -- Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy In your heart cherish the feet of Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru In your heart cherish the form of Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru No one should remain in illusion's misery Without Satguru no one is ever set free No one should remain in illusion's misery Without Satguru no one is ever set free Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy To our souls he's the perfect destination He removes the false and grants true devotion To our souls he's the perfect destination He removes the false and grants true devotion Satguru ends the sufferings of birth and death Endless his glory, infinite his praises Satguru ends the sufferings of birth and death Endless his glory, infinite his praises Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy Truth is revealed only be satguru's grace The soul becomes intoxicated by his grace Truth is revealed only be satguru's grace The soul becomes intoxicated by his grace His blessings unfold the lotus of the heart Light appears within and darkness departs His blessings unfold the lotus of the heart Light appears within and darkness departs Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy Satguru is the creator the lord of destiny He is the supreme power and will always be Satguru is the creator the lord of destiny He is the supreme power and will always be Nanak has been given this revelation Without Satguru no one attains liberation Nanak has been given this revelation Without Satguru no one attains liberation Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy In your heart cherish the form of Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru ..... (to fade)

Subject: Re: rAWAT at 16 approved of this song From: ca premie guy To: Kilgore Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 16:42:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee, I was never charged for going through darshan. Guess they missed me. I was so broke I couldn't give a dime. No one turned me away. What anyone gives or gave is there own business and their own responsibiity to do so responsibly. I know several premies with trust funds, btw, who started in the early 70's and are still living well off them today, so they obviously didnt give it all away. At 16 I almost got myself killed 3 times in that year alone from my reckless behavior that I soon changed. I also believed many things I dont today. He was still a teenager. He didn't write the song did he, although he must have approved of it. I choose to let each person decide for themselves about this 'divinity' issue. Personally, for me its a question I can never answer and its not important. But reading that song in the context of the indian culture which influenced it heavily, it is not offensive to me. There are also different ways to interpret many of those words, some not as literal as others.

Subject: Re: rAWAT at 16 approved of this song From: Cynthia To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 17:47:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi California Guy, I had my first ''formal'' darshan in 1975 and many more after that. Just for your information, if someone didn't have a card to give to Maharaji before entering the darshan tunnel there were plenty of people available on the entry way to the tunnel giving out envelopes to premies on the way in. It was assumed it was for cash or checks. That's how is was back then....

Subject: To Cynthia re Darshan From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 19:32:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you know, i'd forgotten about the envelope thing, I guess it melded into the ' just-another-precious-opportunity-to-show-your-love-for-your-precious-Lord ' theme. I never recall giving much, was usually pretty hard up... Always seemed to pass out anyway, or at least get fairly zapped; what was that??

Subject: Hi AV From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:36:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't think we've met. There are a lot of things that surface when others mention them such as the darshan envelopes, certain events during programs, etc. I've been off this board for a bit so I missed when you came on board. I was always pretty broke at the point that darshan lines took place, too. Many premies were but gave anyway. I would always put money in a card for goomraji but it usually wasn't much. All those 'not very muches' added up I'd imagine. Those long drives home were pretty exhausting as I remember--with very little money for food. I have been all over this country and never saw anything but the inside of halls! Best, Cynthia

Subject: Hi Cyn From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 14:29:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: those halls Cy! crap sound systems, revereration narcosis, having to cope with hours of 'heavy satsang' from 'premies who were really devoted and / or had realised knowledge. We must have been pretty desperate i reckon. mind you ( don't work to work the nostagia genes too hard... but) Very early days were very very different; a lot of genuine outpouring, a real tangible current of love, excitement and expectation. And no-one really had a clue about the lord of the universe tag, that was very much in the domain of mahatma-speak, and you know, their english pronounciation was pretty lame at that point; so we were basically just getting off on the vibe ( the way it should be?), and it was a pretty powerful vibe too, as I recall. We had supper in the ashram and literally bolted our food to get there early and find a front row seat, even if it was more often than not on the floor. I tell ya...there ain't NOOO substitute for spontaneous enthusiasm. Fast forward to Lingfield racecourse,wet, cold crying kids in tent City and Durga goddess person guru wifey getting tough and nasty with the soaking numbed out premies for not being worthy of M or K or some such verbal abuse. I stayed there with the family , living offa tinned beans and porridge, on the way out we had M swish past in his Rolls, all decked up in silk suit and raybans. My reaction was one of guilt, for not being in satsang where I should..we had gone for a drive to get warm. On the way home, virtually peniless, we stopped in a cafe just as they were closing, and were given loads of warm food and drink, and they wouldn't take any money from us. I guess we looked a sorry state. When honchos and rich women in full length cashmere coats swishing their way to the front rows and dining in open air bistros near the programs became ' de rigeur'...i really did feel something had been lost; the inborn sense of human equality, the ability to share and care when called for. The abilty to see the potential for the awakening of supreme love and awareness, when the masks really can fall, You can't scream at people to get them to open up. Berries fall from the trees when they are sweet and ripe, before then, the fruit is bitter. The last premie meeting re-propagation etc I attended about 5 years ago, the vibe was as flat as a pancake, everybody looked tired, uptight, like they were all convincing themselves some wonderful new phase was about to happen etc etc. but I felt like a real outsider, like someone would be screening my remarks in case I said something that was just, well, 'not appropriate' Anyhooo, gotta go; the magic is still there, everywhere.

Subject: Re: rAWAT at 16 approved of this song From: ca premie guy To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 18:08:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia Thats how it was in 1980 too until whenever darshan stopped. There were often people at the start of the tunnel with envelopes for those who wanted. I never saw anyone push one on someone. I think I gave him a card first time, no cash. After that I don't think I gave anything. Walked in with no card or envelope and no one said or did anything. Thanks for your other post too; I agree if : he knows allegations against Jagdeo are true or likely to be, whether or not he knew earlier it would seem to me to respond to the victims only would be the responsible thing to do. Given the hostility he has incurrred from this camp, and that most aren't looking for a constructive dialog, I can understand a reluctance to open a dialog, but still....

Subject: Re: Leaders Magazine admits they were had From: AV To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:43:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear California Man, I appreciate your vulnerability to actually standing outside of your own situation and seeing your life and connection with M from a 'helicopter shot' perspective, it is an extraordinarily difficult view to achieve because all of your powers of discernment and discrimination may be called to question. 1..... striving to be conscious, trying to give to your community or to others? for hundreds of thousands of people, these are some of things Maharaji has helped us to have in our lives...... I wonder where this rhetoric has its foundation? One of the points frequently raised in this Forum is that ; YES INDEED there IS an experience called KNOWLEDGE, but it doesn't appear to have any interface into the world or community at large. I have had Knowledge for over 30 years and have no recollection of any officially organised charitable or socially active groups of premies that have with or without the official sanction of EV / M, sought to provide a practical conduit of the experience of K into the realm of the public need. There was a brief attempt at this back in the mid-70s, but since then , nothing to my awareness. I don't think I could be accused of whining or whingeing to say that the physical direction of most premies energy is devoted towards 'completing the loop' with M. That is not to say giving money per se, but on a deeper level,an underlying conviction that M is the only cause and focus worth directing anything to. I could be churlish and trawl up a load of quotes, but I want to make something VERY CLEAR; I do not post here to lampoon M , I have very personal experiences which would make me feel I was betraying an intimate confidence. I DO post here because I see so many damaged people, good people,people that DO want to evolve into conscious , wholesome loving beings, but have had their psychological welfare but a great risk, POSSIBLY due to their long term involvent with M , EV or both. I can't say for sure, but a lot of patterns are emerging... I feel I can quote a couple without betraying their privacy; 1. A sweet girl, very bright very creative, who tried to O/D because she couldn't see any other way of freeing herself from 'her mind' and being 'in that place'......misguided? of course, but that sort of stuff happens when one's awareness is catapaulted into a blissful ectstatic non-physical state, and then for whatever reason , access to that experience suddenly halts. This is some thing I personally struggled with for years. M constantly and emphatically reinforced the ethos that the experience of K was the ONLY place to be in. Don't you remember 'Constantly meditate on the Holy Name'?.....that wasn't cute advice , it was a COMMANDMENT,ok? 2. Another person who spent his last bucks on one of M's projects to the detriment of his health and family, nad was shunned my M when he really needed some contact , after years of service. 3. another sweet and giving person who adores M, considers him to be her calling in life, yet doesn't have the ability at 50 years to re-arrange her room, buy something nice for the home or put her considerable talents into the public domain. 'i will continue to monitor this forum for a time, still waiting to see something more than people who never mention the experience, and are only now,30 years later, just starting to get their lives together.' Quite frankly, California Man, how f*****g dare you!!! There are plenty of people here who talk about the beauty of their experiences; Their agony , and mine , is that they are now party to 'behind closed doors' information which is so contrary that it invokes a crisis of one's entire core belief process, for reasons which are patently obvious. They have been doing nothing BUT 'get their lives together' for the last 30 years.... I see where the fruit of your experience has gotten you personally, judgemental and void of simple human empathy. Just because you have been blessed with what appears to be a fairly safe and sanitised life ( and do forgive me if i'm wrong ), it does not follow that others' paths enjoy such amenable scenery. You said 'Some of his early quotes do vaguely imply something divinity.....' What, you mean like 'when a premie dies and God comes to collect his soul, Guru Maharaji comes and says ' no you don't, that one is mine!'...(approx recollections) or 2 years ago.. 'people go around saying , he thinks he's the all wise one , well as a matter of fact, I AM the all wise one, they just don't have the imagination to see it...' again approx. recollection. The whole nub is , M's stance has always been that he IS the perfect master offering knowledge of the perfection within.... 'this knowledge is so perfect, soooo perfect, that wherever it touches , it makes that perfect also...' Now it is the RAWAT FOUNDATION offering self knowledge...fine but if M IS wageing war against the darkness in the world, why no acknowledgements of casualties amongst his own troops? I am posting here at risk to my own well being, my connection goes very very deep and even considering that I may have been spiritually misled on some level is almost soul destroying. .....maybe it would be better for you NOT to come here lest your dream be broken.

Subject: What??!!! From: Marshall To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 01:51:52 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Dude, you're satanic. The cyclist murder had an EYE witness, Michael Dettmers, you're calling him a liar? Just say that then you coward. Jagdeo? He RAPED! Yes raped, didn't just touch or whatever, at least Two young girls, at least. It's well documented, along with the cyclist story, as you would know if you did your homework all the way, you immoral jerk. The reason it wasn't reported immediately as you say, is because it got buried by Rawats associates. Also there was a lot of fear involved. You are a real sicko, and you give California a bad name. Damn right you're gonna get flamed creep!

Subject: Re: What??!!! From: ca premie guy To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 16:56:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Its easy to spout obcenities sitting there alone in you room behind your keyboard, isn't it. I hope you enjoy the miserable little world you have created for yourself. But thats what freedom of speech is all about isnt it. The burden of freedom of speech is that since anyone can say anything, in order to be believed on factual mattters we must offer evidence, if not proof. One thing I agreed with Reagan on: trust, then verify. A death is one of the easiest things to verify. I don't know Dettmers, so I don't question his integrity, I am just waiting for some kind of verification. Perhaps I missed posts that accused Jagdeo of actual rape; even with that if the others are true he should be prosecuted. Why isn't someone going after him? It wasn't M who is accused of these deeds. If he protected him, shame on him. Someone telling someone else to tell M about this is a very weak way to try to find justice. What if M never got the message? Why not at least write a letter? My heart really goes out to the victims, and I hope they can get past it somehow. But blaming M...they can't even verify that the was told. And to think that some premies close to M would have the power to 'bury' this...stop police departments from investigating, if they were indeed told ...that is ludicrous.

Subject: To: Ca-Premie Guy... From: Cynthia To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 18:03:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi CPG, Here is a link to a very sensitive post by Abi in which she tells about raped by Jagdeo. If you go to ex-premie.org and click on the Jagdeo link, you'll find other information about efforts many people have made on Susan's and Abi's behalf. Warning: It's not an easy read. Best, Cynthia Abi's Account of Abuse ex-premie.org/best/fragmentation.htm

Subject: Re: To: Ca-Premie Guy... From: ca premie guy To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 23:16:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hi Cynthia you know i had read the first part of that, but I must have gotten interupted and forgot to finish it, because I never got to the rape part. I did remember the body contact part. Poor girl...those kids went through a lot. Have any of the other kids come forward from that incident? With a few testimonies Jagdeo could probably be indicted i would guess. Of course they have to come forward because at least in US you have the right to face your accuser. I do tend to believe this story, and am disgusted by it and hope some action against Jagdeo can be taken. I have done a fair amount of reading here; all i saw in terms of Rawat knowing was two people telling instructors to pass a message to him. Is there anyway to document that M knew about this? Besides 3rd party messsages and hearsay. If there is if someone can direct me to the docs I would appreciate it. Thanks cynthia

Subject: Apologist Drift From: Jim To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 00:28:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is something I've seen often with premies. They start off with a certain position that seems reasonable enough. If it turns out X or Y is true, that's it. They could no longer support M in those circumstances. What they never discuss, though, is the big white elephant that's sitting atop of and essentially squishing their so-called 'critical thinking' and that's their psychological predisposition to stay the course no matter what. You can pretend you're indifferent to whether you stay or go and will simply follow the evidence where it takes you but we all know that's a lie. Be honest. Factor in your 'loyalty' or whatever you want to call it. Until then the notion of critical thinking is a joke. Oh, and by the way, looking at your first post again, it's quite amusing to hear you say: Plenty of premies told me M was the latest Jesus, the only living lord, but he never did. Some of his early quotes do vaguely imply something divinity. Only a cult apologist would ever reduce something like the quote I showed Darrell Brown from (Cult) Leaders Magazine as a vague implication of divinity. Here, lest you forget: 'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ...... When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, ....But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth. Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing... So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light. And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith.' Critical thinking, my ass!

Subject: Re: Apologist Drift From: ca premie guy To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:06:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: People with blinders on wouldnt wade in here for more information expecting to come under atttack and abuse, like i have done. i don't remember seeing that quote. Referance please? Date and publication. That is the strongest, least vague i have seen on the subject. The reason the whole issue is vague to me is this: i consider myself and all human beings a manifestation of God. Where is god? in the sky? no, inside every single human being. Therefore, we are all devine AND we are all human. Thats what I believe. Now obviously he is saying he is more divine than the rest of us, if this quote is accurate- 'The highest manifestation of God is Guru'. After receiving knowledge and hearing similar things I put that question in the category of things I will never understand (whether he is or isnt) ; he stopped saying things like that, so did premies, and i haven't thought about it again until very recently. maybe he is, and he is human too ( i never saw him as perfect as a human being, like the rest of us). i am guessing that quote is from the 70's when he was a young kid still steeped in indian tradition. if he was still saying similar things i would most likely have a problem. That he did when he was a kid i can attribute to youthful indescretion. Bottom line on this issue: it doesn't bother me, but i can understand how it would bother others. knowledge works for me and that overcomes a lot of misstatements for me. The issues that have bothered me, and i was right upfront with this, are any early knowledge M may of had about jagdeo, and the cyclist. Show me the evidence! if it exists. Thats what i am here for and i don't care how many people insult me. Point me to it or tell me it doesn't exist. While i can respect that the other 14 points bother many of you, i could give a crap if he eats meat or smoked pot or drinks or has a girlfriend..its not my business...what he shows me works. i have always believed he is human . BUT..as i said before...proof of involvement in a crime as has been alleged here would make me rethink my involvement with his work, which, btw, was at what most considered quite a high level, tho rarely next to him personally. cheers

Subject: CPG: A simple solution for you... From: Jim S. To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 18:30:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You could request that Michael Dettmers and Michael Donner e-mail you with their phone numbers and you could call them yourself, and get their first hand accounts of this stuff, and then see how you feel about it.... After that, you could write a letter to m and ask him to talk about it, although I wouldn't hold my breath on that one...I did it with my open letters and never heard a word from m .....even about the jagdeo abuse situation, which I had first hand circumstantial evidence of from the 1970's.... Best of luck, bro...

Subject: To CPG - more about your concerns From: Will To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:16:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CPG, You say that you are most concerned with the issue of whether Prem Rawat knew about Jagdeo's crimes. You are quite right to be concerned about this. I will try to outline a few facts for you that you may have missed in the archives. You seem to know that Susan told both Randy Prouty and Judy Osborne and that she requested that they tell Rawat. Susan says that both those people got back to her and told her that they had indeed told Rawat. You probably also know that both Randy and Judy now claim to have no memory of this incident. But think about it. How could that be? You're told that one of Maharaji's initiators sexually abused a child and that child wants you to inform Maharaji himself about it. How could you EVER forget something like that? Either Susan is lying or Randy and Judy are lying. We already know that Randy Prouty is very willing to lie about Maharaji to save Maharaji's reputation. Randy was in the car following Maharaji when the hit and run accident happened. Randy immediately went into the front car, which Rawat had been driving, while Rawat went into the back car, which Randy had been driving. They continued on to the airport. (I wasn't there, I'm just pointing out the salient facts to you, as reported here). Surely, if these allegations were untrue, Randy would want to refute them, and he hasn't. So, given the importance of maintaining Rawat's reputation, so to speak, (we could say maintain the illusion of his Perfect Master status), it is obvious that Randy and Judy have more reason to lie than Susan does. Abi's father was informed about the rape in 1985, a few years after it happened. He immediately informed Guru Charnanand. Charnanand wrote a letter of support to Abi. After 1985, Jagdeo continued touring as an instuctor, with continued access to more premie children. However, he was now allowed to tour only the Orient and Australia. Many people were told to keep an eye on him, but were not told exactly why. Many other people were told why. Many instructors knew all about the situation. Certainly Charnanand knew by 1985. How could Jagdeo's touring be confined to one part of the world, and Rawat not know anything about it? We also know that Abi's father met with Rawat last year during the Amaroo program. They met privately on the grounds, and Rawat told Abi's father that he didn't know about the crimes of Jagdeo until they were reported in 1999 on the Internet, (on Ex-premie.org). What are we to make of this situation? Think about it for awhile!!! Does it seem likely that several of Maharaji's initiators would know about Jagdeo, that they would all keep it a secret from their Master? Does it seem likely that all these crimes were being committed by one of Rawat's closest disciples and he remained oblivious for years? Remember, Jagdeo was especially close to Rawat because he had been a follower of Shri Hans. If Rawat were indeed oblivious to all the crimes, which is the best scenario for Rawat, even that situation is quite damning to Rawat in more ways that one, in a spiritual sense and in the ordinary sense. How could he be so clueless and how could so many of his close associates allow him to be so clueless about something as important as one of his representatives fucking little premie girls. I don't know what conclusions you will come up with. I, myself, condemn Charnanand heavily, either way. He certainly should have informed Rawat, and I am certain that he did. To not have told Rawat would have been an outrage. And once Rawat did learn that Charnanand knew in 1985, certainly Rawat would have been furious at Charnanand for keeping him in the dark about the matter. But that can't be the case, because to this day, Charnanand is still Maharaji's top instructor. What must have happened is that Rawat knew about the incidents and used that knowledge to keep Jagdeo securly bound to him as a devotee. It is extremely typical for a guru to overlook sexual improprieties in their top associates, for two reasons. The guru himself is engaged in sexual improprieties, and, the guru has more power over people who have 'sinned' and are now being chastised privately, but not publicly. To publicly chastise the offender would be an embarrassment to the guru himself, so it is kept hush hush. The above scenario, although it is educated conjecture and not proven fact, points out the reason that the guru should be above all objectionable behavior himself. The guru should certainly not screw his own devotees or drink and smoke dope, simply for the reason that this activity could not possibly be good for the student's welfare, and the guru is supposedly devoted to highest good for his devotees. Your lack of concern for Rawat's personal life is extremely telling. Only a confirmed cult member could hold such a cavalier attitude about his master. You are obviously putting aside your own discrimination. This is extremely harmful to you, spiritually. Discrimination and the highest ideals of behavior should be upheld. I hope that you wake up the latent discrimination in your mind and apply it as staunchly as you possibly can. Do not be afraid of makeing changes in your life. The changes will be for the best, I assure you. Good luck to you.

Subject: A few facts From: Harry To: Will Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 19:27:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi CPG, Will and all, Since CPG asked openly and forthrightly for more info, I'd like to throw a few facts into the mix. Some people here have genuinely tried to answer him from their point of view and some have just regurgitated what they've heard, much of which was invented or heavily embellished to start with. Let me start by stating the obvious...Jagdeo's actions, if true, are reprehensible and criminal. I personally believe Susan, in particular. 1. Nobody I know of, who was around Jagdeo at the time, knew anything about this. This includes several of the people who are currently doing their best to make Maharaji look bad. Michael Dettmers- knew nothing about it. Michael Donner, who was 'in charge' of the initiators - knew nothing about it. A friend of mine interviewed about 40 people when this came out in '99, to get to the bottom of it. None of the teachers at Unity School knew anything about it. I worked around Jagdeo quite a bit in the late 70s and early 80s - I never heard a peep about this. And yet, every time a mahatma or initiator engaged in inappropriate behavior of any kind, let alone child molestation, they were relieved of their duties before a single follicle could grow back on their shaven heads. This is a fact. 2. For those like Will, who believe jagdeo had some sort of special status or was particularly close to Maharaji, that's not true at all. I saw their interaction many, many times in private and it didn't resemble the 'special' bond and respect Maharaji clearly had for Gurucharanand, Sampuranand (R.I.P) or Gyan Baraganand. He called them 'Mahatma ji,' and there was always obvious respect from him. He didn't act like that at all with Jagdeo and anyone who observed their interplay would confirm that. The idea that Jagdeo 'had something on' Maharaji is laughable. Where the ball of communication was dropped is anybody's guess. The fact that this info didn't come out for 20 years is a pretty strong indicator that it was never reported, at least not in anything resembling a full-strength version, to Maharaji or any of the people in organizational positions of authority at the time. I know Judy Osborne and she's a lovely, honorable woman who has worked as a midwife for decades and is dedicated personally and professionally to child health. If you knew her, you wouldn't think for a minute she'd lie about this or blow it off. Anyone who has observed Maharaji's interplay and connection with kids over the years knows he'd never condone or support this crap for an instant. 3. It's clear that the majority of the people here believe Dettmers, Donner and Mishler (of all people) and swallow their perspectives, revised and otherwise, as being the Truth. Has anyone here ever put it together that there are MANY, many other people over the years who have spent lots of time in close proximity to Maharaji, who neither agree with nor support their versions and accounts of life around Maharaji? Does that fact register or are those guys the sum total of all wisdom on the subject? I knew all three of these guys, to varying degrees, and without getting too personal about it, let's just say I wouldn't buy a used karma from any of 'em. There are plenty of people whose company you'd probably enjoy a whole lot more, whose observations and conclusions don't match theirs AT ALL. I've tried a few times to offer another view here, based on experience, not conjecture, and have been met with a closed, deaf ear. For the most part, I and many others I've spoken with, feel it is a futile effort to keep typing away in a chatroom to counteract what we feel are fairly ridiculous statements and conclusions. I've had 'alternative views' on this stuff censored off of this page before the 'ink' was dry. CPG said he has read this j'accuse material thoroughly and is wondering if there's more to these stories. In just about every case I know of, there is LESS to these stories than is believed here and some are outright fiction. Much of what I've read here is bullshit or, at best, wildly out of proportion to reality, multiplied by repetition, exaggeration, anger and peer pressure. One of the only things that does ring true is that Jagdeo was up to serious no good 20 years ago though the attempt to 'pin it on' Maharaji, after the fact, is sadly, typical, counter productive and unfair. If true, Jagdeo did these things, not Maharaji. Small difference, I'd say. Last I heard, there was a warrant out for Jagdeo's arrest in India. Personally, I hope he pays for the suffering and confusion he's caused. I'd suggest to anyone to base their assessments of Maharaji (or anyone else, for that matter) on their actual experience and interactions, not chatroom gossip, distortion and obsession. Now back to the real world, thanks for listening. Probably wasting my typing...but I guess I care. Harry

Subject: The people you are calling liars... From: Chuck S. To: Harry Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:14:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... stepped forward with their real names, and made themselves available to be asked questions. Anyone who wishes to refute what they have said are welcomed to step forward with their real identity and do the same. Are YOU willing to step forward with your real identity, and talk about what you claim you know? If not, then why should anyone believe anything you say? What credibility are you offering? An anonymous voice is not accountable for anything it says, and is no more convincing than a ghost.

Subject: You're wrong, Harry From: Jim Sander To: Harry Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 01:02:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Harry- I was at the Unity School in Denver in the late 70's. Were you? Jagdeo had special 'kids satsangs' in the upstairs classrooms, and other places as well. I know this, because I helped prepare rooms for this. Of course, I didn't know what he was really doing in there at that time, but the ritual he went through with the kids there was the same one he did in England with Abi and the kids there. Your smug attitude really bothers me, as I knew and loved many of those kids and their parents. Their parents were very devoted to maharaji at that time...in fact most of them would have done almost anything for him then. Is the way that maharaji treats his devoted followers? I have written to EV and they could care less about what I have to say. What kind of attitude is that? One of my best friends was given the 'service' of watching jagdeo 24/7 at the time. He was told to never let jagdeo out of his sight. He wasn't told what jagdeo had done, just that he had done something terrible, and had to be watched constantly. These are facts, Harry, and I suggest you listen a bit more instead of trying to defend mr. rawat. I'm just curious about a few things: 1-Is Harry your real name? If not, why not post with your real name? 2-Were you at Unity School in the 70's? How can you say that none of the Unity teachers knew about this? 3-What is it that you don't trust about Donner, Dettmers and Mischler, or are you just trying to muddy the waters with false innuendo here? Care to mention and defend any specific problems you have had with them? 4-Why defend mr. rawat with these defenses that don't hold water? 5-Are you willing to publicly dialog with your real name? If not, why not? Just wondering, Jim Sander

Subject: No Jim, I'm not From: Harry To: Jim Sander Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 16:45:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I stand by every word in the previous post. I can't help it if it doesn't support the reverse wishful thinking you appear to be engaged in. Let me get what you're saying straight: you set up rooms for 'kids satsang' (how sick that sounds) and your friend watched Jagdeo? You say you didn't know what was going on in there which would square with what everyone else has said and yet...you intimate that this means people knew about it back then. Which is it? If you or he knew about it why didn't YOU say or do something? If you didn't know about it (join the club) then who told your friend to watch Jagdeo? Donner was in charge of the initiators and he says he knew nothing about it. Explain that. Is it plausible that so many people would have heard nothing about this contemporaneously except your unnamed friend? These are murky waters, indeed, and yet you and other ex-es are more than willing to assume that Maharaji knew all about it AND condoned it. It just doesn't add up. That doesn't make the abuse any less serious but doesn't it make sense to you that the person who was responsible for the initiators would have known or heard something about this? You said - 'Your smug attitude really bothers me, as I knew and loved many of those kids and their parents.' I STILL know and love many of the kids and their parents. I'm sorry if what I wrote read 'smug' to you but this stuff makes me angry. Jagdeo's original crimes (I'm assuming they're true) make me angry and the current attempt to USE them, 24 years later, to tar and feather Maharaji makes me angry as well. I also have a little trouble with people bending over so easily based on stuff they read in a chat room. Sorry, but I think it's a bit spineless. Some of your Qs- 'Were you at Unity School in the 70's?' I didn't work there but I was in Denver and knew most of the characters at that time. 'How can you say that none of the Unity teachers knew about this?' When they were interviewed about this by a lovely, straight-shooting woman friend of mine, every teacher who could be located said that they were unaware of any of this. Believe it or not, there are people who still love Maharaji who are very disturbed about this and would like to get to the bottom of it. If I/we had known then, Mahatma Schmatma, his ass woulda been grass. I don't know of anyone who would have willingly covered for child abuse, not one person. 'What is it that you don't trust about Donner, Dettmers and Mischler, or are you just trying to muddy the waters with false innuendo here?' I'm using great self-control here to not get into bad-mouthing or personalize this too much. I'll just say that while you seem very impressed by these guys, I don't share your view, based on experience. They don't need me to muddy their waters, believe me. If I wanted to go tabloid, I'd have a field day. 'Why defend mr. rawat with these defenses that don't hold water?' Why attack Mr. Rawat with these offensive assaults that defy common sense or logic, based on hearsay and assumptions? Or did your relationship with Maharaji mean that little to you? 'Are you willing to publicly dialog with your real name?' No, I've tried talking to my real name in the past but it never answers. Be well, Harry

Subject: Harry, what are you afraid of From: JimS. To: Harry Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 20:45:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why not answer my last question, instead of giving a stupid wisecrack? How can anyone believe anything you say,unless you state your name and sources? Would you believe any anonymous person on any forum who claims to have information, but for some reason cannot talk realistically about it? That's what you are doing. About Donner and the others-once again you duck the issues. As far as the cyclist story goes, why not ask Prouty what happened? That might be interesting.... Once again, I was at unity school, you weren't. If you read carefully what I said, we were told that the room was for 'kids satsang'. Abi has confirmd that the same pretense and ritual was used in England with her group. My friend was an ashram resident, and part of the security team-he was asked to watch him, and told not to question why, but that it was important. He will verify this. If you really know the person who interviewed the 40 teachers, tell them to contact me and I will tell them quite a bit. EV has never returned my calls, letters or e-mails. What does that tell you? Why not get real 'Harry'? No one will believe you until you step out from your anonymous position and tell us who you are.

Subject: Re: Harry, what are you afraid of From: Harry To: JimS. Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 17:57:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Jim, Why don't we start with a bit more civility? How are you, Jim? I hope life is good for you, whatever your current take on M. Chapel Hill is a lovely area. I've been there and have several pals around there. You said - 'Why not answer my last question, instead of giving a stupid wisecrack?' Well Jim, I haven't seen anything from you that would qualify you for the Comedy Police so I'll just let that pass. I won't use my complete or real name out of concern for the privacy and safety of my family and myself. Some of the people here (accent on SOME, got that?) are quite unhinged and unhealthily obsessed. I've already seen some real-world, extremely ugly behavior on the part of several ex-premies. Some of my friends HAVE posted under their full names and received harassing phone calls, e-mails and McCarthy like inquiries to their co-workers, employers, etc. At the same time, I have great friends who no longer, for whatever reason, like or groove with Maharaji. They don't, however, display the rabid, fang-baring, knee-jerk, absolutist attitude that some of the local denizens do here. That's why. Ok? Whenever I've posted here, I've spoken straight and on topic. No Catweasleisms, etc. Yet several people, Marianne and others, would like to use their little whisk broom and brush me away as a 'troll.' For all the blabber about freedom of speech, it feels like pure fear. If the only statements allowed are those that further the rah-rah anti-Maharaji Pep Club, and that's what you want to hear, and then by all means, have at it. It's all yours. Just don't kid yourself that there isn't a well-defined party line that you're adhering to, which allows no room for other perspectives. You seem to be baiting me to get nastier about the Mikes. I'm trying not to. I'll just say that I neither trust nor admire them. I didn't then. I don't now. I've spent a lot of time with Maharaji and family, left a far better trail than the people you so easily believe, and occasionally feel like balancing some of the more outrageous tripe and exaggerations spouted and repeated here with a little reality check. If that constitutes being an 'apologist troll,' I'll happily keep my mouth shut and go back to my far more harmonious and rewarding life away from here, without the occasional stop-ins. If I get a chance to ask Randy, I will. Who asked your friend to watch Jagdeo? That might tell us something. Someone who will say that THEY knew about this, contemporaneously. Not decades-old vapor. 'EV has never returned my calls, letters or e-mails. What does that tell you? ' First of all, EV is an answering machine with a few part-timers. Maharaji has had minimal input to EV for years, including those FAQs that bothered a few people. As for your letter, I read it and, frankly, probably wouldn't have even responded. At least Kathie wrote to you. If I remember, the jist of it was,' I asked Maharaji what I could do and he said you could host the satellites and we were having a great time hosting and then I read some stuff in an Internet chat room and I will no longer host 'til someone clears up my doubts.' Jim, it sounded to me like you bent right over. Sorry, but that won't get you a whole lot of sympathy. I know reading this stuff over and over is disturbing and I don't mean to make light of it. But either your relationship with Maharaji is important and valuable enough to REALLY get to the bottom of it, or it isn't. It has spine, or it doesn't. 'Why not get real 'Harry'? No one will believe you until you step out from your anonymous position and tell us who you are. ' I'm as real as can be, Jim. I don't care if you believe me. Anyone who really wants to hear the sincerity of the 'voice' behind all this typing can do so. If all you want to hear is the confirmation of the 'worst,' that's all you'll hear. I understand the horrible, sinking feeling that you've been sold a bill of goods. You feel that way now about Maharaji. I think YOU'VE been sold a bill of goods right here. I've had a few friends who got sucked into this place, who then went and saw or spent time with Maharaji and said, 'what was I thinking?' He doesn't even faintly resemble the caricature painted by the fun-house mirror, Bizarro World, consensus 'reality' of this board. There are ways to find out if Maharaji is on the level, beneficent and a strong force for awareness and beauty. Wallowing in doubt, debate and gossip are not among them. Good luck, Harry

Subject: The wrong Jim jumpin in From: Jim To: Harry Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 18:46:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Harry, If you don't mind ..... I won't use my complete or real name out of concern for the privacy and safety of my family and myself. Some of the people here (accent on SOME, got that?) are quite unhinged and unhealthily obsessed. I've already seen some real-world, extremely ugly behavior on the part of several ex-premies. Some of my friends HAVE posted under their full names and received harassing phone calls, e-mails and McCarthy like inquiries to their co-workers, employers, etc. Would you care to particularize this allegation or are you content to just throw it out there unfounded? I guess when your position is one of defending someone like Maharaji you have to chip away at his critics as much as possible but, all I can say, Harry, is that whatever lines of civility have been crossed by exes is nothing compared to what premies have done over the past few years. We've received death threats, real, actual harrassment that would make any of those 'inquiries' seem meaningless by comparison. We've been subject to hacking, CACing and other things I can't even mention. Some day I will, though, believe me. Talk about rabid .... At the same time, I have great friends who no longer, for whatever reason, like or groove with Maharaji. They don't, however, display the rabid, fang-baring, knee-jerk, absolutist attitude that some of the local denizens do here. I see you're trying to broker some sort of live-and-let-live relativism with respect to Maharaji. Is that what you'd afford any cult leader who's finally exposed? What are your views of Sai Baba? Whenever I've posted here, I've spoken straight and on topic. No Catweasleisms, etc. Yet several people, Marianne and others, would like to use their little whisk broom and brush me away as a 'troll.' For all the blabber about freedom of speech, it feels like pure fear. If the only statements allowed are those that further the rah-rah anti-Maharaji Pep Club, and that's what you want to hear, and then by all means, have at it. It's all yours. If your answer to me about believing Dettmers or not is an example, no, you're hardly straight-talking. I still don't know, your expressed 'trouble' aside, if you think he's lying. Do you? Care to finally answer instead of beating around the bush? Just don't kid yourself that there isn't a well-defined party line that you're adhering to, which allows no room for other perspectives. What are the possibilities? If Maharaji was a fraudulent Lord of the Universe at eight what possible legitimacy could he later claim or 'grow into'? If 'party line' means an arbitrary philosophy that's not subject to question, you won't find that here. We've had tons and tons and tons of discussions regarding the level of Maharaji's depravity and wilfull duplicity. We'll probably have tons and tons more because the exes are not unanimous in their views. However, I must say, everything Maharaji has done -- or not done -- responding to us over the last couple of years just makes him look worse. Think EV FAQs. Think all of his web expressions, starting from his first silly website where he pretended he never set himself out as a 'leader' in any sense to his latest sham interview in 'Leaders Magazine'. The 'party line' you object to is the irresistable consensus that any informed outsider would join in sharing regarding this goofy, bankrupt hindu cult. If you premies weren't so afraid of the outside world, you'd meet that same 'party line' at every juncture. Thus, the only interview Maharaji can dare undertake in 30 years is a piece of protected fluff in which he says nothing. You seem to be baiting me to get nastier about the Mikes. I'm trying not to. I'll just say that I neither trust nor admire them. I didn't then. I don't now. So say it. Tell us that you think Dettmers is lying about the cyclist. You just seem so prissy dancing around the question, don't you? I've spent a lot of time with Maharaji and family, left a far better trail than the people you so easily believe, and occasionally feel like balancing some of the more outrageous tripe and exaggerations spouted and repeated here with a little reality check. If that constitutes being an 'apologist troll,' I'll happily keep my mouth shut and go back to my far more harmonious and rewarding life away from here, without the occasional stop-ins. Don't do us any favours. If I get a chance to ask Randy, I will. Who asked your friend to watch Jagdeo? That might tell us something. Someone who will say that THEY knew about this, contemporaneously. Not decades-old vapor. Here's what to ask Randy. Ask him if he remembers Susan. She says they were friends and that he was almost something of a big brother to her. For all I know, though, she could be lying about this. Ask him. Then ask him if he recalls her telling him about Jagdeo molesting her. Again, is this woman lying or not? Let's find out. I'm sure Randy can assist. Then, ask him if he did not tell her that he told Maharaji on her behalf? Again, let's get to the bottom of this. Is Susan's a liar I don't want to have anything to do with her anymore. Not after all this. So, please, Harry, help us out here. But ...IF Randy admits that he did tell her he told Maharaji, ask him if that was a lie. This isn't casual, Harry. Maharaji professed in no uncertain terms to Chris Bray that he had no idea that Jagdeo was molesting kids years ago. Either Randy lied to Susan, or Susan's a liar or Maharaji is. Something's got to give here. Do you care? 'EV has never returned my calls, letters or e-mails. What does that tell you? ' First of all, EV is an answering machine with a few part-timers. Maharaji has had minimal input to EV for years, including those FAQs that bothered a few people. Are you actually saying that he did not see those FAQs before they went up or shortly therreafter and that he had no say whatsoever in their blatantly lying content? Again, Harry, for such a 'straight-talker' you sure leave a lot of ends hanging, don't you? What are you saying? Spell it out. As for your letter, I read it and, frankly, probably wouldn't have even responded. At least Kathie wrote to you. If I remember, the jist of it was,' I asked Maharaji what I could do and he said you could host the satellites and we were having a great time hosting and then I read some stuff in an Internet chat room and I will no longer host 'til someone clears up my doubts.' Jim, it sounded to me like you bent right over. Sorry, but that won't get you a whole lot of sympathy. I'll leave that to you to. Disgusting, in my opinion, but whatever. I know reading this stuff over and over is disturbing and I don't mean to make light of it. But either your relationship with Maharaji is important and valuable enough to REALLY get to the bottom of it, or it isn't. It has spine, or it doesn't. Hey, Mr. Straight-Talker, what the hell are you saying? Spell it out! Are you actually saying that if one values one's relationship with Maharaji, one should take allegations against him very seriously and investigate thoroughly? Or the opposite? What? 'Why not get real 'Harry'? No one will believe you until you step out from your anonymous position and tell us who you are. ' I'm as real as can be, Jim. I don't care if you believe me. Anyone who really wants to hear the sincerity of the 'voice' behind all this typing can do so. If all you want to hear is the confirmation of the 'worst,' that's all you'll hear. I understand the horrible, sinking feeling that you've been sold a bill of goods. You feel that way now about Maharaji. I think YOU'VE been sold a bill of goods right here. You're gonna get to the bottom of everything anyway, right? How? I've had a few friends who got sucked into this place, who then went and saw or spent time with Maharaji and said, 'what was I thinking?' He doesn't even faintly resemble the caricature painted by the fun-house mirror, Bizarro World, consensus 'reality' of this board. There are ways to find out if Maharaji is on the level, beneficent and a strong force for awareness and beauty. Wallowing in doubt, debate and gossip are not among them. Are you saying that Maharaji performs as Maharaji in spite of all the skeletons in his closet? If you think that you sound even close to sincere you're so wrong it's not funny. You, my friend, sound like a snake.

Subject: P.S. to Jim S. From: Harry To: Harry Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 17:59:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is there really that great a difference to you between 'Jim,' 'Harry' and 'Steve?' Or is this a matter of 'position' to you?

Subject: Harry, if you want to help... From: Jim S. To: Harry Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 18:17:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why not tell your friend who interviewed the 40 Unity School premies, and have that person contact me as soon as possible. I have a lot I would like to share with him/her. As for the letters, if you read them carefully, I clearly ask why maharaji contiues to lie about his past statements and pretend that he never said what he said. His lying is far more disturbing to me than the drugs/alcohol/mistress/ abortion stuff, although that is disturbing as well. BTW,ALL of the scandalous stuff has been corroborated by a number of premies that I have known for decades.....I believe them, because thy are honest people.... Even if the scandals are/were not true, I simply cannot listen to, follow, or respect a proven liar, and maharaji has proven that many times over... Are you going to try and say that he DOESN'T lie about his past?

Subject: Are you suddenly leaving, Harry? From: Jim S. To: Jim S. Date Posted: Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 00:30:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm serious 'Harry'. (from now on I'll have to put you in quotes, because I have no idea who you are) 1-Since you believe Jagdeo is a pedophile, will you please tell your friend who interviewed the 40 teachers, to contact me asap? I am serious Harry. Are you? Will you put your money where your mouth is? 2-Would you be willing to meet with me personally sometime in the next 2-3 months? I will be travelling up and down the east coast and west coast, working on a documentary. I'd like to meet you face to face. Are you willing?

Subject: What about MY question? From: Jim To: Harry Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 17:20:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Come on, Harry, do you say that Dettemrs is lying about the cyclist incident or not? And if the answer's 'yes, he IS lying' in what respect is he lying, according to you, and how do you know?

Subject: Re: A few facts From: CPG To: Harry Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 00:06:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks so much for you message, Harry. I am looking for facts; just the way I am; and you relayed your experience which I greatly appreciate. Wish more people who have first hand knowledge of any of these intereactions/people would do so too. I wasn't there back in the day (70's) so I don't know any of these characters. i am awaiting a barrage of challenges; i curiously await. One thing you said that rang true for me is why 3 people out of so many I know have been close to him. I still listen to their versions eagerly, but as they are after all some person I don't know writing something unverified on the internet, prudent person that i am i am still looking for verification. Maybe with Jagdeo and what M knew when, it comes down to he said/she said; but there seems to be little questioning all around of the grotesqueness of the atrocities he committed and that he should pay for it. Can anyone else confirm/substantiate that there is a warrant issued for his arrest? Is this a new development? I presume if it can be confirmed that it will be added to the EPO info. I probably sound like a lawyer or something to some ( i am not) but when it comes to reading different accounts on the internet the way i make a judgement as to credibility is documentation. something, somehow to show M was notified and ignored it, not just that some instructors were told; they might have been too fearful to tell him or a hundred other things could have happened. i eagerly await your response to Jim's question about the cyclist, and thank you again.

Subject: to CPG From: Harry To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 20:11:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My pleasure, though as you can see, the tomatoes are already flying and I just had my shirt dry-cleaned. You said - 'but as they are after all some person I don't know writing something unverified on the internet, prudent person that i am i am still looking for verification. ' Exactly. Stay cautious and try not to make the same mistake some people here have...mistaking repetition for verification. If you made a 'family tree' of the gossip and charges, you'd find that almost all of it springs from the same couple of people and plenty of others are speaking straight out of their ass, with all due respect. I guess that's why they call it hindsight. As to your other comment, CPG - 'not just that some instructors were told; they might have been too fearful to tell him or a hundred other things could have happened.' Again, exactly and very likely the case. And here we are, 24 years later. I answered the cyclist/Dettmers question below, as politely as I was able. take care, Harry P.S. CPG, I'm not going to get hoovered into an endless back-and-forth on this (especially with Mr. Heller) as I don't have the time to get sucked into any black holes at the moment. Just know that I've spoken straight and avoid endless masochistic debates for the sake of your own mental health and the well-being of your heart.

Subject: Bullshit From: Jim To: Harry Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 20:33:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I answered the cyclist/Dettmers question below, as politely as I was able. You did anything but. In fact, you did not answer the question but rather threw mud at it. You talked about Dettmers, talked about Maharaji, talked about yourself, talked about us but you did not say whether you thought Dettmers was lying about the incident, let alone how or why. Tell me, CPG, can you see through this or not? Do you think Harry answered the question? Please explain.

Subject: Re: Bullshit From: CPG To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 20:50:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PS I also don't understand why someone accused of complicity in such a crime -Prouty- wouldn't issue a simple statement here saying it isn't true.

Subject: Try reading one sentence, genius From: Harry To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 20:50:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Based on his reportage of events and incidents I AM aware of, I'd have to say I'd have trouble taking anything at face value from Michael Dettmers.' What aspect of this sentence do you fail to comprehend? The rest is an examination of his modus operandi of about-faces, revisions and hedging. Which aspects of those sentences elude your steel trap of a mind?

Subject: Oh come on From: Jim To: Harry Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 22:13:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can't bring yourself to say it, can you Harry? Q: Do you think Dettmers was lying? A: [These are the only possible answers. Choose one] 1) Yes 2) No 3) Don't know 4) Maybe 5) Don't understand the question So, which is it? I mean, do you concede there was an incident something like this but maybe Dettmers is putting some spin on it? What could that spin be, Harry? Maharaji wasn't really driving?The guy didn't really die? There wasn't a Chinese Fire Drill? No payoff? Talk to us. Don't just throw prissy little hissy fits. Talk to us. :)

Subject: Re: Bullshit From: CPG To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 20:47:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not directly, no. But you can never disprove something if it didn't happen, or you know nothing about it. It is impossible to prove a negative. That is why in this issue the burden of proof is on the accuser. The only was to get past one man's accusation, one who is openly bent on discrediting M, is either a corraberating statement from someone else, ie Prouty, or at least some documentation showing the incident at least occured. Dettmers states that there was an investigation and the houseboy took the wrap. This means there would be a police report in existance; maybe also a newspaper article; certainly a death certificate. If this happened near me I could have copies of all three documents within an hour. I see no reason why someone hellbent on discrediting M wouldn't produce these.

Subject: I'm sorry, you're entirely wrong From: Jim To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 21:41:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not directly, no. But you can never disprove something if it didn't happen, or you know nothing about it. It is impossible to prove a negative. That is why in this issue the burden of proof is on the accuser. The only was to get past one man's accusation, one who is openly bent on discrediting M, is either a corraberating statement from someone else, ie Prouty, or at least some documentation showing the incident at least occured. Dettmers states that there was an investigation and the houseboy took the wrap. This means there would be a police report in existance; maybe also a newspaper article; certainly a death certificate. If this happened near me I could have copies of all three documents within an hour. I see no reason why someone hellbent on discrediting M wouldn't produce these. --- CPG, I'll trust you're speaking in good faith but I must say I don't have much patience for the kind of bias you bring to the table. Harry went out of his way to say that he answered my question and, though you concede that he did not answer it 'directly', even saying that gives him abominably undeserved credit. He didn't answer it at all. He could hate Dettmers and everything he stands for but still not think he's lying. It was a specific, simple question and no, he did not answer it. Period. So what does that make Harry, CPG? Hm? Anyway, as for the rest of your post, I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong. Dettmers' account is first-person direct 'testimony', if you will, and is more than enough to make a case, even to the famous criminal law standard of 'proof beyond a reasonable doubt'. People are convicted in courts in the fairest and most enlightened judicial systems in the world every day on uncorroborated evidence. A witness does not need to be corroborated to be compelling. That quality can derive from other factors and they're replete here if you only think about it. Sadly, I think that most of your thinking is still focussed on goal-tending. This incident happened years ago. In India of all places. Come on, man, do you really think there's going to be a newspaper report or anything of the kind at our disposal? Look, maybe I'm being too hard on you. I'm sorry if I am. I'm a little sick right now. It's court to bed to computer to bed to computer to bed to court -- well whatever. But, if it's of any assistance, I'll tell you why I'm persuaded that Dettmers is telling the truth. First, I've gotten to know Mike a bit in the past two years and the idea of him lying about something like this just doesn't cut it. I certainly don't agree with him about some things but I trust his word and integrity as he's demonstrated it to me in private and not-so-private dealings over this time. Add to that, I've spoken with him personally about this. There was never any doubt, in my mind anyways, that he was telling the truth. Anyway, I'm sympathetic with your desire for as much evidence as you can possibly muster to make your decision easy for you. Right now, if you're being honest with us, you don't know if Maharaji's really SATGURU and we're just whiny, lost sheep or if he's as unworthy of respect as we say. But you aren't ever going to come to terms with the truth here until you're ready to. The evidence is overwhelming on every front. But you have to be ready to follow it.

Subject: Re: I'm sorry, you're entirely wrong From: CPG To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 23:24:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry you aren't feeling well. But don't tell me this is what you are saying cuz this is what I get- goal -keeper = apologist = someone who doesn't accept the whole ex-party line without questioning or goal keeper = apologist = anyone who says something that doesn't support Jim You were my buddy when you thought I supported you... Yes; i have a good friend who served 6 years in prison due to a directed verdict based on a single testimony of a 16 yo girl, later recanted. I t does happen. BUT, I do not believe, in a situation where other evidence is available but not produced. It should be clear by now that I am not seeking to discredit anyone but calling for reasonable confirmation, from BOTH biases.

Subject: Sorry From: Jim To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 23:53:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CPG, I might have been a little harsh and inaccurate there. Sorry for that. But you must appreciate that there is a bit of an apologist trick that we see here again and again. Premies have oh so often asserted their open-mindedness and willingness to accept certain facts as true -- but guess what? There .... just ... wasn't ... enough .... evidence. Oh well, eh? CPG, we've seen premies say this about everything. The simplest, most basic, incontrovertible facts imaginable, such as Maharaji's posturing as the Lord of the Universe, his stated promise to bring world peace or his amazingly dark tirades against 'the mind' and anything even slightly suggestive of individual freedom and expression, have been evaded in this way. Likewise with various skeletons in Maharaji's closets, such as the ones we're curently discussing. Overwhelming proof for any fair-minded person but never quite enough for premies. So, I have to admit, I'm braced for that bias from premies. But I'm aware of that and always try to stay open and respectful to real consideration when I think a premie's giving that to the issues. What can I tell you? If you really think Dettmers is lying, why not ask him yourself? Track him down and talk with him. He's accessible through his website and, though I can't talk for him, I also can't imagine him being rude or dismissive of you in the slightest if he thinks you're sincerely asking. Bottom line, I guess, is that if you're not satisfied with the evidence at hand, do your own investigation. Most premies, sadly, are entirely content to use some apparent weakness in the evidence to avoid the issues altogether. Capiche?

Subject: Re: to CPG From: CPG To: Harry Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 20:32:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Too late; i am sucked in...while it might be hurting my business slightly at the moment it hasn't effected my mental health or heart. This has been a revelation for me tho, and i am enjoying it. I want to know about these two incidents, well three with CAC. Its true this has gone round and round with he-said and conjecture, and that isn't enough for me, but isn't the best way to get at the truth with verifiable facts, or at least more testimonies of experience? For example, if your friend or others did research and interviewed 40 people re; jagdeo, why can't that be made available to someone like me if not posted here? Do you know Randy Prouty? would you be willing to call him and ask him to respond to the accusations against him? a simple written staement will do. i understand and sense a philosophy of ignore, ignore, ignore, and sometimes that is the best one. But in the case of accusations of a criminal and morally questionable nature, doesn't it make sense to make available any information possible to let people make up their own minds? i suppose no one wants to be sucked into an endless dialogue, and i have no illusions that such material would quell that, but such information could easily be provided if available, then let that be the end of it. thanks

Subject: Re: to CPG From: PatC To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 20:58:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well said, CPG. All the accusations against Rawat don't bother me too much because they are not the reason that I left him. Rather I left for ''spiritual'' reasons - I needed a breath of fresh air after the cult secrecy. But, yes, for someone who is interested in the accusations against Rawat, having documentation would be important though I doubt that anyone would actually be able to get hold of Indian government documents. I hope someone who is motivated to do so at least attempts that. As for the charges brought about against Jagdeo in India - they were publicised on Rawat's old website or maybe on EV's site but removed a few weeks later. I forget the exact wording now but the charges against Jagdeo consisited of one sentence in a couple of paragraphs basically smearing Abi and discrediting her. All references were soon removed because the smear job was obvious to anyone with half a brain. BTW, Jagdeo is now a very old man and justice will probably never be done.

Subject: Re: to CPG From: CPG To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 21:12:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Police reports are publically available documents in most countries; don't know about india.

Subject: Police reports are not usually public From: Marianne To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 16:30:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry CPG, this is not true in the US. In order to get a copy, if it isn't in a public court file, you usually have to be a victim, witness or somehow involved in the prosecution of the case. Marianne

Subject: Police reports are public From: PatC To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 21:23:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Police reports are publically available documents in most countries; don't know about india. --- True but I don't think anyone here has a contact in India to get the documents. Police reports are not easy to obtain. Sometimes you need a lawyer to get a warrant from a judge to see them. They are not usually published on the net but that would be one way to search. As I said, I'm not motivated because the accusations aren't important to me.

Subject: A few more facts-Rawat's indifference to abuse From: Marianne To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 02:45:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CPG: Today, the most important issue is why Rawat is not taking responsibility for compensating Abi for the harm she suffered at Jagdeo's hands now that he does know about it. Rawat met with Abi's dad, then still a devout premie, a year ago in Amaroo. A year later nothing has happened. Why? Today he and his organization still owe Abi an apology and compensation. Do you defend this position? Even the Catholic Church is compensating victims for sexual abuse suffered decades ago. Rawat has turned a deaf ear to Abi and her family. How can you justify this position? Marianne

Subject: ***100% Best Of Forum*** Marianne From: Marshall To: Marianne Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:47:16 (EDT) Email Address: huh? Message: Marianne, I love your short to the point, point. One paragraph that says it all. ESPECIALLY: Even the Catholic Church is compensating victims for sexual abuse suffered decades ago. Rawatt has turned a deaf ear to Abi and her family. HOW CAN ANYBODY(PREMIE OR NON-PREMIE) JUSTIFY THIS POSITON! Repeat HOW???!!!

Subject: One question, Harry From: Jim To: Harry Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 20:04:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you think Dettmers is lying about the cyclist?

Subject: From: To: Date Posted: Email Address: Message:

Subject: That's it in a nutshell From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:36:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Perhaps the need for certainty is much greater when you are younger, hence M and Sai Baba's enormous success in attracting young devotees. The trouble is, though, that once you have taken on a world-view and belief system of such all-embracingness, and stuck with it, it becomes hard to shake it off because it so colours how you view the world. And you engage in increasingly weird mental contortions to retain the belief system that has underpinned your life. Exactly!