Subject: Pope addresses abuse by priests From: Pat W To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 17:59:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just saw on the News that the Pope has made some public announcement condemning paedophile priests. Good for him. I didn't see the whole clip but it immediately reminded me of the Jagdeo furore. Isn't this the sort of statement that possibly many premies and ex-premies would be heartened to see Maharaji deliver? Such responsible articulated concern from a leader goes a long way to garner real respect - if it is clearly genuine. By the way, let me take this opportunity to add my voice to those expressing support to Neville, who it seems, has had the guts to champion the feelings of many in his lone stand at Amaroo. I think it would be appropriate to commision a painting of him, portrayed in his gallant action, to be hung in the corridors of the EPO building.

Subject: The EPO building and politics From: JHB To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 19:00:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patrick, in his very serious piece on religious paedophiles, said this:- I think it would be appropriate to commision a painting of him [Neville], portrayed in his gallant action, to be hung in the corridors of the EPO building. Yes, of course Neville's painting should be hung somewhere in the extensive corridors, but the current spat is about the order in which the paintings of Scott, Jim, David, Brian, Katie, and Jean-Michel should be hung on the wall of the Georgian curved staircase to the reception rooms on the second floor. As current webmaster, my own portrait awaits my retirement, so I cannot comment on its placement, although the central position at the top of the stairs is in need of 'filling out'. Joe, who claims to have retired, also has claims on the prime sites, as do many of our illustrious posters. I think the committee has some hard decisions to make. John.

Subject: From cynical ex-Catholic... From: Cynthia To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 18:14:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat W, I think it was a dog and pony show. Cardinal Law didn't have to resign. They take care of eachother and are probably most concerned about the gold they'll have to cash in for the next wave of victims. They've all screwed up really bad but the Vatican and the Holy See have so much power and everything is so secret. My speculation is that it was a preliminary meeting about who will be the next Pope. Papal Politics. Very sad bunch. Cynthia

Subject: Re: From cynical ex-Catholic... From: Pat W To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 19:02:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm sure Papal politics sucks as much as any politics and that your cynicism is not misplaced. The Pope's public statement about abuse within the Chuch had to be done though. Better, I say, to have at least addressed the issue publically than not to have done so. Just mentioning it will have drawn more attention to such problems which should of course not be further ignored. The Pope was probably forced into having to address the subject by the RC equivalent of premie advisors- after all he is, unlike Maharaji, largely a lone figurehead for a massive religious movement - not a self-proclaimed Master or such like. Now Maharaji certainly doesn't think his Organisation / Foundation (or whatever you want to call it) has problems which need to be publically aired. What a difference! The Roman Catholic church is a cult which has evolved over hundreds of years and which has had to become socially integrated to survive. Interestingly, some religious students actually are these days recommended to study Maharaji, and the Indian tradition that he comes from, as a very good example of religion in it's infancy. Witness 'The birth of a Religion' sort of thing. Maharaji could be said to be following the later script quite well, but somewhat prematurely for a Master, by adapting and appealing constantly to society for acceptance - watering down the hard-line etc . The transition from cult to acceptable religion is perhaps defined by the concessions to society that the leader(s) make. Maharaji is kind of unique as a Spiritual Master figure in that he does not seem to be heading for the great Sacrifice - Crucifiction - Ascension- Battle - Confrontation with Evil etc. He would maybe rather compromise and become less controversial - or would he? He rejects the influence of premie advisors and resents a scenario where he becomes answerable to, or representative of others. He sees himself more and more as in control of his own ship. This aspiration has brought him time after time into conflict and friction with premies who maybe disageed with or sought to influence him. At least when he has achieved that lofty position as 'Captain of his own ship' we can expect him to be fully responsible for any mistakes that he makes - for there will surely be no-one else to blame in that event.

Subject: 'Very bad karma' From: Marianne To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:42:38 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: So after he got done with a hard day's work non-violently and peacefully picketing and protesting Captain Rawat's event at Amaroo, Neville rang up an EV PR person who had given him her name and number. She told him that what he was doing was 'very bad karma' and that the Captain knew about what he'd done and was very upset. Great work there, Neville. Why on earth would a solitary, peaceful act of protest be 'bad karma'? Because it's directed at the Lord of the Universe, that's why. You know what Rawat? Bad karma comes from greed. It comes from taking money from millions of people and converting it to your own use, under fraudulent pretenses. It comes from allowing your employee, Mahatma Jagdeo to travel the world, sexually abusing children. It comes from refusing to compensate those children, who are now adults, and who still suffer from the abuse your employee perpetrated upon them. Bad karma comes from falsely portraying your background in your website, in an ongoing attempt to fleece more people. Neville, from the sound of it, you have devoted your life to highly laudable pursuits, and should be congratulated for those efforts. Keep up your good work with the aboriginal community and as an environmental activist. I admire what you have done. Marianne

Subject: They could have given him the Black Spot From: Jim To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:54:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Marianne, this karma threat is so telling, isn't it? Next time, if this ever happens again and Amaroo isn't turned into one big Dya's Playground in the meantime, it'd be nice to at least get a video camera out there with Neville and whoever else braves the winds of bad karma.

Subject: Re: They could have given him the Black Spot From: The Other Neville To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:41:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Braves the winds of bad karma.' That's gotta be a song title. Probably by the Scorpions. The non-Aussie, non-heroic Neville

Subject: SHOULD HE MAKE A POLICE REPORT? From: salsa To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:26:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'bad karma' sounded like a threat perhaps?

Subject: Not for that, salsa From: Marianne To: salsa Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:29:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The bad karma remark was just stupidity.

Subject: Bad karma... From: Cynthia To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 18:08:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is that like 'instant karma gonna get you...' line from John Lennon. Funny, isn't it, that Prem Pay Pal (btw, notice how all the post-2002-Amaroo PWKs and premies now call him endearingly 'Prem?') was reportedly upset by one lone picketer of the Year: Aussie Neville who stood strong against the hindu 'karma' warning. I wonder if that PR person was afraid because Prem Rawat was upset? And if no premies noticed why are the usuals denying all stories told here? Hmmmm....just interesting questions going through my mind. Cynthia

Subject: Being on a first-name basis with the Lard From: Gail To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 19:10:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Things are really looking up in the Kingom of Premiedom aren't they. Imagine calling the Lard by his first name. The leftovers are truly blessed. How can the LOTU possibly top this. This is just tooooo much. Check out the questions and answers: Q - Oh Prem! Oh gosh. My heart's pounding. It's fantastic to see you up close and talk to you after 31 years of following you around. Do you think you could come to London, Ontario to do a program? I wrote the words to the tune of 'Side by Side' to invite you some five years ago but have heard nothing. Do ya remember seeing seven middle-aged women who had abandoned all reason and dignity to become your puppets? We worked on this production for days and had it professionally edited. It went like this: Well we ain't got a barrel of money. Maybe we're goofy and funny But we're singin this ... you get the gist, Prem? A Well, ah, eeeeeek. I'll have to consider that around the same time I give that elderly lad a ride in myyyyyy jet. ___________________________ Q Yessiree Prem. It sure is nice getting to know you on a personal level after all this time. No more maddening crowds getting in my way. No more instructors to listen to (they gone to the ex-premie forum 7). No more poor folk begging at the doors. One person who used to be your devotee said he realized the Prem Pal and K were for rich folks the very first he saw the new sales tables back in 1996. Of course, he couldn't keep up with the travel expenses so he had to give it up (like smoking). How come you don't subsidize the poor folk like you had us do for your Indian premies back in 1979? A Well, ah, eeeeeek. It would interfere with my work. __________________________________ Q. But didn't you say, Prem, 'When I call, you come?' These guys can't afford to. A. It's all a divine lyela. Don't worry about it. I've never lost a premie yet. Q. Prem, are you really the Lord? A. I never claimed to be the Lord. I sat under the LOTU banner bcause it was the only clean place. (wink, wink) As Lord Krishna once said, there will be darshan tomorrow.

Subject: Marianne - see my question below re juveniles [nt] From: Dep To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 17:03:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hi DD- death row, meditation, etc From: Marianne To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 17:48:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: DD: Here's the short answer. I am not part of the anti-meditation camp. If meditation works for people, that's fine with me. DD, kids/people who end up on death row have so much going on in their lives that meditation is the last thing that is going to help them. They are typically in such a state of life long crisis from having been horribly abused in unimaginable ways that they are living literally from moment to moment. Their mental functioning is so impaired that they usually can't hold down a job, a home, or meaningful family relationships. Usually every aspect of their lives is nearly or completely out of control. Solving the problems that these folks have so they don't end up harming others takes concrete action -- not telling people to do something to calm themselves down. They need proper food, a stable place to live, people they can depend on, and help taming the demons in their heads and hearts. Suggesting that meditation might be an antidote for these folks is sort of like Marie Antoinette telling the starving of France to eat cake. As for the meditation teachers, well, after witnessing what Rawat has done, I'm pretty skeptical. The only person I've seen around EPO who found a teacher he can recommend is Gregg. I believe there is far more to be realized from working in impoverished communities, and volunteering to help people in a concrete way, that allows me to find peace. Endless navel gazing or paying attention to my breath is an exercise in self absorption which doesn't have any meaningful effect on the outside world, as far as I can see. Marianne

Subject: Re: Not for that, salsa From: Gail To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:42:16 (EDT) Email Address: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com Message: Speaking of karma, isn't it a damn shame that it probably is a fairy tale. Would it be nice to imagine Maharaji burning in purgatory for a thousand years (justice for the millenium of peace he promised us) followed by an incarnation as a dung beetle. (God knows we ate a lot of the shit he shovelled. It's time the shoe were on the other foot.) Yodel aheeeuwwww. Why not e-mail me again. It's the right account. If that doesn't work, try .ca.

Subject: You deleted my post but From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:34:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you still have that ''Kiss my ass'' logo on the forum. My post was not breaching copyright but the logo is. Plus the logo is not serious or polite. There's some major contradictions here with the forum moderators.

Subject: Thoughts on the 'Arse' Logo From: Pat W To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 18:17:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The 'Arse' Logo is not a great idea in my opinion either... It's inflamattory in an unsubtle way. Don't get me wrong - I am a huge fan of caricature but I am not entirely sure that it is a suitable 'banner' for this particular forum. No doubt the logo reflects the owner, Gerry's and some others feelings but not nevertheless, I would suspect, necessarily the sentiments of the majority of people who approach this place as a 'rare resource' for frank and 'sincere discussion' if you will. I would have thought a more diplomatic front would be far preferable and I would go so far as to say that I view the Logo as a small but effective step in the wrong direction. It could marginalise the contributors to this place. Not a very welcome result surely?

Subject: Re: Thoughts on the 'Arse' Logo From: JHB To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 18:28:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Although I suspect it's not such a big deal, I agree with you Patrick. My thoughts in this kind of situation are with the wavering premie who finds this forum and is afraid to read. Before they even get a chance to read they have to see a parody of their Lord's latest artistry. I really don't know for certain, but it may put them off dipping their toes a little further into life without the neuromasturbation teacher. But then again, using this term that I came up with might also put off the fledgling ex-premie, so who can say for certain? John

Subject: Re: Thoughts on the 'Arse' Logo From: Cynthia To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 18:19:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree. It's very funny but temporary was good. Geeze, I just noticed it's gone... Btw, there are a lot more 'breast' men than 'ass' men on this board:)

Subject: I'm a two faced hypocrite From: gerry To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:35:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

Subject: Right, that's it - I'm outta here! From: Sir Dave To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:58:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thou infectious tardy-gaited lewdster.

Subject: actually they are breasts right? From: bill To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:24:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: I'm a two faced hypocrite From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:42:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm glad I missed it. Thanks for deleting. No offence, Sir Dave, wrong board for that stuff.;)

Subject: Re: I'm a two faced hypocrite From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:41:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm glad I missed it. Thanks for deleting. No offence, Sir Dave, wrong board for that stuff.;)

Subject: Oops, two posts, one to delete... [nt] From: Cynthia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:13:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: That Thread, not post. From: Tonette To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:04:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was a thread which consisted of a link which pornogized Life's Great. Not my taste, I didn't even think it was funny. And to make the cake, Mili did the very same thing in another thread with forum seven. Frankly, I do not want to see my posts here linked to headings where my words are substituted for smut. I don't see how bastardizing anyone's words is anything other than offensive. You don't have to be serious nor polite here. But if the FA allows threads and posts to lower to the level of childish pranks, offensive and vindicitive in their nature, I would exit immediately stage right. That sort of stuff is counter productive to the information and dialog which should and does occur on this forum and others. It's the substance that belongs on AG. There is a stage for that sort of mentality. I think the 'Kiss my ass' logo pretty much sums up Ralwat's opinion of himself towards others. Nothing offensive in that. And the word ass is a far cry from cocksucker, fucking, ect. I'm glad your thread and Mili's was deleted. I'm sorry if you have your feelings hurt or if you feel like it was unfair. I really am because I like you Sir Dave. Tonette

Subject: Right that's it - I'm back again From: Sir Dave To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:59:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Childish pranks are my hobby, Tonette. Like it or not, there'll be more.

Subject: The shit hits the fan From: Neville To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:21:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If John Macgregor is right about Amaroo, and numbers are down 37% on last year, that’s a hell of a drop. Let’s assume for a moment this figure is truly representative. If we call devotee numbers 100% in 2001, a quick compound interest calculation shows: 2001 100% 2002 63% 2003 40% 2004 25% 2005 16% 2006 10% 2007 6% 2008 4% 2009 2.5% 2010 1.5% 2011 1% So, at the current rate of recantation, by 2011AD M will be left with only 1% of his 2001 numbers. Now, M can do sums just as well as us, and if this fall away is really attributable to the work of EPO then we can expect a counter-reaction from M soon. I’m serious. The effluent is about to hit the air conditioning. The CAC attack may well be chicken feed by comparison. Which is why I’ve stopped leaving my e-mail address at this site. (Personally, I think we’re seeing the tail end of a decline that started at the Houston Astrodome. Whatever happened to Rennie Davis, BTW?) Neville (not the heroic Australian one)

Subject: Re: The shit hits the fan From: Mili To: Neville Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:36:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You forgot that the numbers could be a little down this year because of the 'War against Terror' and increased concerns about airline security. In view of that there was a pretty good Int'l turnout this year, IMO. Compare that with the forecasts (and apprehension) that the tourism industry has been having for this season. Actually, numbers don't mean a thing, y'know. Life's afoot for EVERYONE.

Subject: Re: The shit hits the fan From: The Other Neville To: Mili Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:08:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, extrapolating from one statistic is a dodgy business. Naturally, I want to be alive to see M reduced a lonely, isolated man, his delusions all on show, reminiscing about the good ol' days of Guru Pujas to a few, remaining loyal idiots. He's on course for that. Let's face it--his project is over. He isn't going to reach the world with knowledge etc. He's been marginalised. The non-Aussie, stay-at-home, no-pasteboard Neville

Subject: Numbers don't matter From: Sir Dave To: Mili Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:30:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A few hundred here or there from a world population of six billion is irrelevant. What does matter is that Prem Rawat's self knowledge club does not appeal to the vast majority of people in the world - only to a very, very tiny minority of people. Nobody can relate to his philosophy or his actions. I'd thought that would be obvious by now. He's onto a loser.

Subject: How would it look if it WERE a cult? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 19:14:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm thinking that if Maharaji really were a cult leader, his interaction with his followers would reflect that. But how? Well, for one thing, I think that they would travel great distances -- unreasonable distances, in fact -- to be with him. Who else but a cult leader could persuade people to drop all other responsibilities and fly, at great expense, to some far-off, isolated spot just to look at him and maybe hear his voice again? That's one thing. What else? Well, I think that when these people did get together, they would place very little, if any, importance on their interaction with one another as all eyes would be pointed in one direction, at the cult leader. Thus, they would await him silently, perhaps, maybe even in prayer or meditation. Each person would believe that they enjoyed some sort of magical connection to their cult leader and they would prepare individually for his appearance with that fantasy in mind. What else? How about how they act when he finally arrives? If the guy's a cult leader I would expect a few things from the audience. For one, a completely excessive fawning and gushing, like but not identical to what pre-teens express for their movie and music idols. Of course if this were an adult audience, I'd expect a somewhat muted version but fawning all the same. Thus, if the guy's a cult leader I would expect him to make tepid jokes that would leave his audience roiling with laughter. I'd expect them to approach him with great reverence, perhaps even trepidation, only to utter the unfathomable nature of their devotion and love for him. I would also expect that neither he nor they would ever once suggest that there should be some natural limit to either that love or its expression. That's what I would expect if he were a cult leader. Anything else? Yes. I would expect that the cult leader would touch on a few classic points in his address: 1) That his followers have been given something rare and that they alone can cherish and respect its value. No one outside this group could ever understand. 2) That he, the cult leader, offers invaluable assistance in pursuing each audience member's goals, those goals being, essentially, learning to even better appreciate the cult leader! This assistance was critical and could only be effective if the individual recipient allowed no doubt or other mental estrangement to interfere. He or she must approach the leader with complete innocence and trust. To that end, reflection upon or discussion about the past is complex and problematic. As a general rule, it does NOT engender simple innocence and trust. Thus, it's to be avoided. 3) That his assistance was such that it would ALWAYS be needed. Forever. That's just the way it is. Don't ask why, that's just the way it is. Thankfull, of course, the cult leader is so [.......] (wonderful, loveable, beautiful, etc. (fill in the blanks), it will be okay to spend the rest of one's life depending on him so. It's really all too beautiful for words. 4) That the audience would bear a certain level of tension before the cult leader's address and that he, to ecult leader, would play with that tension in one of several ways. If he was happy, he would defuse it with light pleasantries which, as explained above, always elicit an over-reaction from the audience. If the cult leader was unhappy, he might threaten or cajole. It just depends. 5) That the meeting would end with the various audience members feeling that something very special just happened, something so special that it was worth anything and everything to be there. In fact, they shudder at the thought that somehow they might not have come this time. Relieved that they did, though, there'd be a certain levity or relief in the ranks as they then disperse, go home and await the next siren call. I'd expect all that from a cult leader meeting his followers. Wouldn't you? ***:)****:(***:)***:(***:)***:(***:)***:(***:)***:(***:)**** Below, is another report from Amaroo (from ELK, of course): It was a truly 'lovely' afternoon This report from the afternoon 'interactive session' will be followed by an account of the morning event in the next couple of days In the heat of the afternoon sun, 3,000 people sat on the grass in a field - in absolute silence. They were awaiting the arrival of Maharaji - who had promised to come and hold a further 'interactive' session. Some were contemplating the things they might tell him about if they had the chance.. Others were contemplating something a little deeper - and more private stilll. You could almost taste the tranquility in the air - were it not already so sweet with the scent of eucalyptus bark from the trees on the edge of the clearing. And then, a golf buggy drew up silently - and Maharaji, resplendent in red casual shirt... walked straight up to the makeshift stage and began. One of the first people to take the Microphone was Maria from Vancouver. She explained how s he had never spoken to Maharaji before and her friends thought this was odd. He said: 'Well, now you have spoken to me!' She replied: 'Yes, now I can tell them we are really tight.' Raising what was to be the topic of the day, she spoke of her endless longing to speak to - and be near to her teacher. Maharaji asked her if she liked the feeling of longing. She said, 'I love it!' Next came an elderly lady from Japan who invited Maharaji to visit Japan. Maharaji complimented her on her English and then pointed out that he had so many places he wanted to go - and so many places he had not been to for such a long time. He went on to speak about how well the Portugese were doing for getting so many new people interested. He spoke of how 'political' it could become in a country when people fall out with one another. He spoke of the games we get caught up in: It is too easy to complain. Don't climb over people's heads. Work jointly. He described his aviation team... and how important it was for people to work together when flying. Likewise, he said, the area of propagation was no place in which to go making mistakes! Then he told a story. Once, a master was going for a walk. He heard cries of 'help, help!' He saw a man, caught up in a thorn bush. Ripped clothes. Crying help. The master untangled him and took him home. He gave him new clothes (his old ones were shredded.) The man was grateful. He ended up getting Knowledge. But then one day, he started getting into all his concepts. So the master said: 'OK, go to the jungle and get me some berries.' And then, again, it is 'help, help!!!' The master said: How come you got caught here. He said: 'I could free myself but you gave me those clothes and it would have torn them.' The master said: 'Never mind the clothes. They are like concepts. You need to be FREE! And so it is with us: we think we are immune from concepts - but we are none of us are invulnerable to fallling out with one another. A guy from Miami asked Maharaji if he could come and retire at Amaroo. Given the ages of some of his students, Maharaji said that he had been giving the subject of retirement some thought A young lady also from Miami stood up at the back. She said she would likke to get closer to Maharaji- so he invited her to come sit at the front... which after a little persuasion, she did. She said she had no family - but to her, Maharaji is everything. Maharaji described himself as being like a river, moving fast. He said there is never a dull moment around him... Later this proved very true as Gail from Melbourne said hello and Maharaji said G'day in reply. She told Maharaji about her kids, her friends, her plans to leave Melbourne and her dog, a border collie who doesn't like to wash.... much to the amjusement of all. The laughter continued when Maharaji started speaking to an English woman, who was true to the stereotype having difficulty expressing what she wanted to say. He said that she wasn't English - that was a language - but British - and that everything was 'lovely'. A truly British sort of word, that kept on being repeated and repeated topeels of laughter. And it seemed tobe quickly adopted by people of all nations as they walked away from the campground in the lucid air of a brilliantly clear dusk. Hm ......

Subject: Re: How would it look if it WERE a cult? From: Ben Lurking To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:13:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, How could you ever disprove that magical unique connection, its like a board stretcher, a fantasy to all but those that believe and confuse belief with fact. Ben

Subject: Re: How would it look if it WERE a cult? From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:40:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee, I never thought about it but you may be onto something. M just might be the leader of a cult. You think maybe we should warn the current premies? :) Nice analysis, Jim. Glad you are recovered from the flu or so it would seem. Funny, but nowhere in the report from ELK does it mention the presence of a former follower with a sign. M probably just created him to test their devotion. Such a master, eh?

Subject: He's an abusive jerk From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:38:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As per your usual, a wonderful read. Well thought out, well written, to the point. Thanks. The EV posting is the usual cult dribble but one thing did jump out at me. 'A guy from Miami asked Maharaji if he could come and retire at Amaroo. Given the ages of some of his students, Maharaji said that he had been giving the subject of retirement some thought' Well that sums up some of my worst fears for the people still inmeshed in Maharajism, Ralwatism, or shall we say Premism, he's going to try and take everyone willing for all that they are worth. Retirement with M at Amaroo? This is just so telling. I see another ashram debacle coming or worse. And you can better believe the arrangement will be constructed so there will be no recourse towards M when this too, will be another 'experiement that didn't work.' I tell you that little dittie from EV chilled me to the bone. I wish Chuck would post his Amaroo Realty Guide. I can't find the link or I would do it myself. This portion of the interaction is extremely sad. 'A young lady also from Miami stood up at the back. She said she would likke to get closer to Maharaji- so he invited her to come sit at the front... which after a little persuasion, she did. She said she had no family - but to her, Maharaji is everything' She wants to get closer not physically you fat buffoon, but closer on a human level. How about inviting her over for dinner with you and the PAMS or something? For someone who professes to know all the working of the human heart, you sure are an ignoramus Prem. Then again, if she was a blond, a young one at that, maybe he just wanted a closer look. Monica must be showing some mileage by now after all. And this, 'One of the first people to take the Microphone was Maria from Vancouver. She explained how s he had never spoken to Maharaji before and her friends thought this was odd. He said: 'Well, now you have spoken to me!' She replied: 'Yes, now I can tell them we are really tight.' How sad that someone would consider and accept such a shallow exchange as qualifying as being 'tight' or close to someone. Talk about low expectations. Lastly, the final line of EV's description of the 'interaction.' 'they walked away from the campground in the lucid air of a brilliantly clear dusk.' If they knew half of what Ralwat is and what he has done they would 'walk away.' And honey, the only thing lucid was the air, certainly not the participants, they got that right! I'm a bit surprised that EV would not doctor up this little narrative describing M's 'interactive session.' It's so appallingly wierd, describes M ability to make fun of people and leaves one with the impression of a bunch of desperate souls grabbing at the cloth of his designer 'red' shirt. Too strange. Warmly, Tonette

Subject: It's gone too far... From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 20:44:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: when the man won't wear pants in front of his devotees! 'And then, a golf buggy drew up silently - and Maharaji, resplendent in red casual shirt... walked straight up to the makeshift stage and began.' Of course, Cat will respond, 'He *was* wearing pants, red ones, and they were great, and then he bought everyone ice cream!'

Subject: Hi Mickey - ot From: Gail To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:26:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi: Are you still in Panama? Good to hear from you.

Subject: M. Pharisee From: Gregg To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:37:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mickey...just a strange little note...you reminded me of a time in a bar in Richmond, Indiana. My friend and I ran into a visiting professor, a composer (whose music sounded both modern and martial), who was totally drunk and thus felt free to tell us about his secret passion...Hitler. Yeah, he was a German-American Nazi. Anyway, he went on and on about the Nazis and Hitler. He told a story about how, when a group of Germans were being pummeled by Allied bombing, Adolf Hitler personally sent a couple of trucks to the poor dears with steak and...ice cream. Whatta guy.

Subject: Read 'White Noise' From: Jim To: Gregg Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:44:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Weird novel by Don Delilo about a professor of Hitlerology. Reminds me of this. Good book, by the way.

Subject: Open Letter to Dr. Ron Geaves From: Google Search To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:40:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: FYI -- In a Google search for 'Dr. Ron Geaves,' the 'open letter to Dr. Ron Geaves' on the EPO website comes up number one. Does anyone think this might encourage Dr. Geaves to respond to the letter? Google Search is not holding her breath.

Subject: A threat to Deputy Dog From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 14:48:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm thinking of sending you a copy of Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker .... .... pretty scary, huh? :)

Subject: Jim, I'm warning you! From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:17:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I appreciate your concern. That book is probably quite expensive and I’m warning you, you just might get a 'God' book back in return. Are you prepared for that? And if you insist, please send me one of your CDs and I’ll send you one of mine. If I had the money, if I was independently wealthy, I would be quite willing to send you the tuition for the Landmark Forum. If there is one thing that has defined me over the last few years it is the Landmark Forum. And pluuueeezzze, it’s not a cult. It’s a very effective training. And once you do it (it lasts for 3 days) you go home and never hear from those people again. Believe me, you’ll get 'nothing' from this training. It will even help you to see the value of K. How does the following from The Book On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are by Alan Watts, fit into the Blind Watchmaker paradigm? 'If the world went on and on without rest for ever and ever, it would get horribly tired of itself. It comes and it goes. Now you see it now you don’t. So because it doesn’t get tired of itself, it always comes back again after it disappears. It’s like your breath: it goes in and out, in and out, and if you try to hold it in all the time your feel terrible. It’s also like the game of hide-and-seek, because it’s fun to always find new ways of hiding, and to seek for someone who doesn’t always hide in the same place. God also likes to play hide-and-seek, but because there is nothing outside God, he has no one but himself to play with. But he gets over that difficulty by pretending that he is not himself. This is his way of hiding from himself. He pretends that he is you and I and all the people in he world, all the animals, all the plants, all the rocks, and all the stars. In this way he has strange and wonderful adventures, some of which are terrible and frightening. But these are just like bad dreams, for when he wakes up they will disappear. Now when God plays hide and pretends that he is you and I, he does it so well that it takes him a long time to remember where and how he hid himself. But that’s the whole fun of it – just what he wanted to do. He doesn’t want to find himself too quickly, for that would spoil the game. That is why it is so difficult for you and me to find out that we are God in disguise, pretending not to be himself. But when the game has gone on long enough, all of us will wake up, stop pretending, and remember what we are all one single Self – the God who is all that there is and who lives for ever and ever. Of course, you must remember that God isn’t shaped like a person. People have skins and there is always something outside our skins. If there weren’t, we wouldn’t know the difference between what is inside and what is outside our bodies. But God has no skin and no shape because there isn’t any outside to him. And though I’ve been talking about God as 'he' and not 'she,' God isn’t a man or a woman. I didn’t say 'it' because we usually say it for things that are not alive. You may ask why God sometimes hides in the form of horrible people, or pretends to be people who suffer from great disease and pain. Remember, first, that he isn’t really doing this to anyone but himself. Remember, too, that in almost all the stories you enjoy there have to be bad people as well as good people, for the thrill of the tale is to find out how the good people will get the better of the bad. It’s the same as when we play cards. At the beginning of the game we shuffle them into a mess, which is like the bad things in the world, but the point of the game is to put the mess into good order, and the one who does it best is the winner. Then we shuffle the cards once more and play again, and so it goes with the world.' Alan Watts expresses how I feel about God and the Universe far better than I could. Take care, =)

Subject: Deputy - if you have gone to Landmark........ From: Nottm Bunny To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 17:36:23 (EDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: .....................You have just walked from one big CON to potentially an even bigger one! I only had to walk into the reception area of one of their recruitment evenings with a friend, hear the hype coming from the glazed but blissful face from one of her colleagues to sniff CULT!!!!! Needless to say, I walked straight out and took her with me. I believe the guy who founded Landmark is the same guy who started EST. Please check out http://www.rickross.com/groups/landmark.html Bunny P.S. Here's a sample: 'Landmark itself is a racket' February 21, 2001 By A Forum Graduate I recently completed the Forum, and went to the first 'Forum In Action' class last week. I have some concerns about the organization, and have decided not to continue with landmark. The following is my letter to the 'group' (we gathered into small 6 person groups at the meeting). Just wanted to let you all know that I'm not going to be continuing the Forum In Action series. I learned a lot about myself in the forum, and thought it was a powerful experience, but just think it's time to move on. Why am i not continuing, you might ask? Well, I feel in order to continue with landmark, I will have to relinquish independent thought, like for example, being able to make the claim that Landmark itself is a 'racket.' Now I know you might respond to that by saying that's MY racket, but not even being able to question the organization of Landmark makes me wonder what kind of organization it is. Researching the roots of Landmark, one wonders how much trust you can put into an organization with such a checkered past. Allegations of income tax evasion, domestic abuse, etc. Even if these were false claims, the way I see it, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it just might be a duck. I think landmark is a 'racket' because it is a paradox in and of itself. There is no way to question it, because every time you try to, it's dismissed as being your 'racket,' your problem. It's a catch 22. I also think that there is mind influencing going on here. Not necessarily brainwashing, but a definite influencing of how to look at things. And for every 'breakthrough' and every 'transformation,' the hand that's attached to that shoulder you cry on is getting closer and closer to your wallet and address book. How many of you are doing the advanced course? How many are bringing friends tonight? In your relationships with others outside of Landmark, have you noticed an 'us vs. them' dichotomy developing? How do you feel about me now? I'm not as close as I may have once been, right? Have you noticed yourself defending landmark as not the way I claim it is? But I'm still the same guy right? Why should it matter if I continue with this or not? Aren't people entitled to their own opinions? I think that one can actually distance himself from others who aren't interested in this 'technology.' Now what kind of thing is this, really? If the person you are trying to enroll doesn't want to 'buy,' how do you explain the rift that is almost always created? What makes you so right? Just because I like basketball and one of my friends doesn't, that doesn't mean she's in the dark, or enrollable to the sport. Shouldn't someone have the right to choose? And shouldn't you accept them whatever their choice? How long do you plan on being a part of this organization? When do you think you will 'get it?' I asked this question to the woman leading the action series last week. And what was her answer? 'Never,' she said. So what are you paying for? What are you devoting your time to? When is enough enough? How many courses will it take for you to figure out your 'rackets' and winning formulas? Some people are still finding new rackets to this day, and have devoted their lives to landmark. Some people are going to be a part of this until they die. If you want to devote your life to this, consider the following: There are nearly 60 landmark courses and infinite volunteer opportunities. if you want, you can easily spend the rest of your life with Landmark. You can get that fix. Isn't it the fix that you are craving? The fix that this organization provides? Isn't it just another racket? Except this racket has a name--Landmark. I challenge you to consider the possibility that Landmark itself is flawed. And seeing that imperfection is the very thing that can help bring back your independent thought, your reason, and in some ways, your mind. OR Landmark Training 'Cost Me My Job' Contact/February 17, 2000 By Peta Woodhouse and Marita Vandenberg A Wellington man says he sank into a deep depression and changed his behaviour so radically that he lost his job after completing a Landmark Education course. Aaron Cohen says he felt good about completing the first course run by Landmark - which encourages people to get out of their comfort zone, take risks and achieve goals. But the second course left him feeling ''the most depressed I have ever felt in my life.'' Mr Cohen was one of more than a dozen people to ring Contact after last week's story on Government agencies funding staff to take Landmark's personal development courses. A Landmark media spokesperson Sharon Spaulding said from Utah that people could not blame Landmark for things that go wrong in their lives. People exercise a choice in how they use the skills learned through Landmark courses. While the American-based international organisation has a low profile in New Zealand it has been dogged by controversy overseas because of its intense teaching methods and strong recruitment drive. Several government agencies including the prison service, health providers and at least one local tertiary institution have funded staff to take courses. The entry-level course called the Landmark Forum involves three consecutive 15 hour days of training during which many participants reach an emotional state called ''transformation.'' Mr Cohen says he became so disillusioned with Landmark Education that he failed to turn up to the third course for which he had paid a deposit. He says the course put participants into a vulnerable state by allowing them little time to eat, drink or even go for toilet breaks. ''We were made to feel very uncomfortable if we even left the room to go to the bathroom. A lot of people got more and more emotionally shot as the course went on.'' Mr Cohen says Landmark's assertiveness training influenced him to tell his employers at the time that he was ''unhappy with what was going on'' and to try to do things which were beyond his ability. He says he was fired as a result of his radical new behaviour. ''The course made [me into] a 19-year-old bad decision maker,'' he says. Ms Spaulding said in response to repeated criticism that participants felt pressured not to leave the room that people were able to go to the toilet. ''But we do tell people if they leave at times other than during breaks we can't promise they'll get the full value of the course.'' Ms Spaulding strongly rejected claims that Landmark participants were required to enrol others in courses. Sometimes participants were over- enthusiastic - but only in the same way that anyone who had seen a good film might insist a friend go and see it. Another caller, Alvin Ralph, says Landmark Education put his partner under so much pressure she came close to a breakdown. He says that pressure also caused the breakup of their relationship. Mr Ralph participated in a number of courses and his partner became a trainer. He thought the Forum was so good he paid for his three sons to go on it. But as he carried on with the courses he disliked the pressure being put on people and the mix of ''praise and put down.'' He said his partner was taking time off work just to memorise ''pages and pages.'' ''I had to ring them in the finish [and say] 'if you don't pull her out of this course she's going to have a breakdown.' '' Mr Ralph said the courses were ''quite good'' and there was some mending of family relationships. ''Most people who do the courses believe it to be good value.'' But he said getting involved in training others was ''a different story''. Yvonne Collin went on a course two years ago and says she came away with ''real concerns about the pressure and emotional manipulation. ''If my taxes are going to pay to put people through it then I'm concerned.'' What you learn in the end is that the only meaning in life is the meaning that you give to it, she said. She says her concern was not so much the message Landmark offered, but the pressure put on people. ''It's the business side of it that disturbs me.'' Ms Collins said she was still getting calls six months after doing the course. Another caller, Jeff, said he'd been urged during the Forum to phone his father and fix their relationship. At one point he said around five people stood next to him urging him to call his father again after his father had not wanted to talk. ''In the end my father said 'I think you are being brainwashed Jeff and should get the hell out of there'.'' At the end of the course there had been a ''real frenzy'' to sign people up for the next course, he said. Ms Spaulding responded to questions about information supplied to intending course participants. She said there was no formal prospectus outlining exactly what would happen during the course or details about the qualifications and backgrounds of the trainers. But a great deal of literature was made available including a study from Harvard University, she said. ''We get almost no requests for refunds. We have a 95 per cent customer satisfaction rate.'' Anyone who had a problem with what Landmark offered could work through a complaints procedure which involved speaking to the person responsible for that particular area of training.

Subject: I'm curious, Dep From: Lesley To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:32:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have come across this idea that God is playing hide and seek before, I even have some friends who really believe this, they will seriously assert that they are God, and anybody who doesn't agree, and give a knowing smile, doesn't really know where it's at. What I find so strange about this idea is how can you square away a world view that contains such a callous God, with the more traditional view of God being compassionate. To say that it's okay because he is doing it to himself is ludicrous. Like me saying I'll strip my left leg of flesh bit by bit, in one centimetre pieces, and massage coconut oil into my right leg, but it's okay because I'm doing it to myself. This is what I am curious about, doesn't it give you a chill right down your spine, doesn't it make you feel even the teensiest bit uncomfortable to seriously entertain the idea that you were made by an all powerful entity who suffers from boredom, likes playing games, and is quite happy to torture you, and what is more, it is your fault because you are doing it to yourself? In his first bestseller, The Selfish Gene, Dawkins makes an interesting statement about God. He is talking about ideas, and the way that they replicate themselves. Sorta looking on us as hapless host minds for errant idea bacteria. And he is pointing out that when one idea is accepted then often another idea piggybacks in on the first one. Such as the idea of God being piggybacked by the idea of Satan. Nobody likes to admit it these days, God's alive, Satan's dead, but Dawkins is right about that. It seems to me that this 'God playing hide and seek with himself' world view is yet another attempt to rationalise away the question of why we experience suffering if God is so bang up beaut. Reminds me a lot of how premies try to rationalise Rawat's behaviour and still retain Maharaji as their chosen one....now wasn't it a lot better, a lot more sensible, to just get rid of your belief in 'Maharaji', and along with it the need to rationalise his behaviour as acceptable in a saviour?

Subject: Just another creation myth From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:50:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, Thanks for Landmark but don't worry about it. CD's not finished but I'll let you know. God book -- why not hold off on that for a bit? But The Blind Watchmaker is yours if you promise to read it. No, it's not expensive, as I bet you can pick up a used copy yourself if you wanted for under $10. But, say yes and I'll send you one. You'll have to email me your address of course. Seriously.

Subject: Jim, this might explain things! From: Dep To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:54:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Again, from The Book On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are by Alan Watts: 'I have sometimes thought that all philosophical disputes could be reduced to an argument between the partisans of 'prickles' and the partisans of 'goo.' The prickly people are tough-minded, rigorous, and precise, and like to stress differences and divisions between things. They prefer particles to waves and discontinuity to continuity. The gooey people are tender-minded romantics who love wide generalisations and grand syntheses. They stress the underlying unities, and are inclined to pantheism and mysticism. Waves suit them much better than particles as the ultimate constituents of matter, and discontinuities jar their teeth like a compressed air drill. Prickly philosophers consider the gooey ones rather disgusting – undisciplined, vague dreamers who slide over hard facts like an intellectual slime which threatens to engulf the whole universe in an undifferentiated aesthetic continuum. But gooey philosophers think of their prickly colleagues as animated skeletons that rattle and click without any flesh or vital juices, as dry and desiccated mechanism bereft of all finer feelings. Either party would be hopelessly lost without the other, because there would be nothing to argue about, no one would know what his position was, and the whole course of philosophy would come to an end. As things now stand in the world of academic philosophy, the prickly people have the upper hand for some years.' Still want to send me that book? =)

Subject: Re: A threat to Deputy Dog From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:05:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, Can you be more specific? What happened? Who said you threatened Deputy Dog by saying you'd send him a copy of the Blind Watchman? Did I miss something?

Subject: Re: A threat to Deputy Dog From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 18:12:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia! I don't know if you're joking or not - it's hard sometimes when you can't see someone's face. Anyway, I think Jim's just having a bit of fun trying to get Dog to read the book. In fact I think I'm going to have to go and buy it myself. I probably still need a bit of an overhaul in the spiritual concepts department. I'll let you all know how it goes. Livia, off on a spending spree

Subject: :):):) [nt] From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:09:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re smileys [nt] From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 18:59:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: DOH!!!

Subject: An Ex-Premie Folk Hero is Born From: John Macgregor To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 12:33:02 (EDT) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: As suspected, the mystery man at the gate of Amaroo yesterday with the protest sign was local resident, DLM founder, former Australian WPC Chief, environmental activist and ex-premie Neville Ackland. Neville rang me tonight with details of his exploit - which, quite naturally, he found rather challenging inasmuch as he did it all alone in a sea of nearly 3000 premies. Neville’s large sign read: MAHARAJI: I GAVE YOU MY HEART. YOU BROKE IT AND DIDN’T CARE. From time to time he would flip it over to reveal the other side, which read: MAHARAJI: MASTER OF DECEIT, LIAR, COWARD AND FOOL. I DARE YOU TO FACE ME, IN OR OUT OF COURT. Neville’s strategy, he said, was to get Maharaji to sue him for defamation, whereupon he would be able to air his and other ex-premies’ grievances in an open courtroom. Neville appeared with his sign at Amaroo’s front gate at 3pm yesterday (Sunday). First up, he reported to the police stationed at the gate, and conferred with them on what their rules were, so he could avoid breaking the law. He spent the best part of an hour showing a policeman copious materials he had printed off the EPO website. ‘The policeman’s eyes,’ he said, ‘nearly popped out of his head.’ As all the premies at this time were inside the site, making their way to the program, he then went over to a born-again Christian parking attendant, who was reading his Bible under a gumtree, and shared his views and the EPO materials with him as well. Apparently the chap was highly supportive. At 4pm a paid (outside) EV PR consultant drove up, having been alerted to Neville’s presence, and began a discussion with him. Neville said the guy became (at least outwardly) very sympathetic after he explained his feelings. Next on the scene was an elderly American gentleman with a ten-gallon hat. (This is where it gets a bit surreal.) The American, who was accompanied by a lady a few years younger, stated that he was not a premie, but had been personally invited to the event by Maharaji. It turned out that he had been one of Maharaji’s flying instructors. Then the paid staff began leaving the site in buses: Neville dutifully displayed his sign to them. First to appear from the program itself was one of the attending exes I mentioned yesterday. S/he gave Neville a big hug, and told him the program was ‘the same old shit’, and they exchanged phone numbers and agreed to catch up. Next, as hundreds - indeed more likely thousands - of premies began leaving the site (all thru the front gate) after the last program concluded at about dusk, Neville again displayed his sign prominently. He naturally got catcalls - tho nothing too aggressive or obscene. As this sea of often antagonistic people swarmed past Neville, the elderly gentleman came up with his lady and stood on either side of him, to express solidarity. It turns out the old guy was himself active in the environmental movement in his home state, where he had sometimes been marginalised by the majority. ‘I know what it’s like to be lonely,’ he said, as he observed Neville amidst an ocean of often hostile premies. He said repeatedly how much he admired what Neville was doing. Fearing that someone might bother or threaten Neville, the old guy and his lady stood shoulder to shoulder with him the whole time - till the numbers began to dissipate. During this lengthy period several things happened. Firstly, Neville talked ten-to-the-dozen to the couple about what he saw as Maharaji’s misdemeanours. (No-one who knows Neville will be surprised to hear this: he is an excellent talker.) The PR consultant came over and took copious notes of the conversation. By this time it was fairly dark, so the area was floodlit. The light near Neville was switched off, so the premies leaving the site couldn’t read his sign. However this had the effect of drawing most people close so they could read it: it was assumed that this was an official EV sign conveying important information. So not many people missed the message. The old guy, who knows Maharaji well, took photos of Neville and his sign, and promised he would give them to Maharaji. Another cop came up and asked Neville if he intended to come back tomorrow. Neville had been forewarned by the first cop that this (for reasons that are beyond me) would be against the law - ‘expressing an intention to obstruct lawful pedestrian traffic’ or somesuch. Neville (truthfully) said no. A gigantic and very annoyed premie appeared - Neville said he’d never seen anyone so large: nearly seven feet - and said: ‘This is most inappropriate!’ But he was pacified and sent on his way by the old American guy. ‘The premies were terrified,’ Neville reported. ‘In that situation you realise that you do have a lot of power. It was a very liberating experience.’ Neville went home and celebrated the day with a bottle of champagne. After unwinding a little, he rang an EV person who had given him her number at the gate, and had asked him to call her. He’s forgotten her name for the moment - but said she has been a ‘front row type’ for many years. The woman said that what he was doing was ‘very bad karma’. Neville said not to worry: he was sure Maharaji would not get to know about the protest at the gate. ‘Oh Maharaji knows,’ the woman said. ‘And he is not happy!!’ At 10.30pm the phone rang: it was a very supportive EV person, Keith Brewster (Keith was in the Adelaide ashram with Neville and I in the 1970s) wanting to set up a meeting between Neville and some EV people next morning. Neville said Keith’s friendly and supportive approach made him realise ‘that premies could be good people’. Neville said he wanted to talk to Maharaji personally. Keith said he didn’t think that would be possible. So Neville suggested Valerio and Jan McGregor. Valerio was the chap whom M sent to Australia in early 1998 to sort out the Amaroo Mutiny. At the end of the Mutiny, all the malefactors, including yours truly, had buckled under Valerio’s influence, and admitted the error of their ways. All except Neville, who stood firm - loudly and publicly - with his objections to the way EV and Amaroo were run. He was of course marginalised permanently. Anyway, next morning (i.e. this morning) at 9.30 Neville appeared as arranged at the Amaroo gate, and spent ten minutes telling the cop stationed there of Maharaji’s failings. He was then ushered into a meeting with Valerio and Jan McGregor - Keith was also present. (Jan is the former manager of Amaroo, and is now, if I’m not mistaken, working in the PR area.) Neville began by telling Valerio: ‘I was here to protest, and to challenge Maharaji to take me to court for defaming him. My beef is not with you, but with Maharaji, who spiritually violated me.’ Valerio replied: ‘I can only talk to you about your problems with me - you did ask to see me. I don’t have anything to do with these other issues.’ Neville responded: ‘Well the “other issues” go to the core of my complaint. However, you did manipulate me in a meeting after the Amaroo Mutiny.’ (This is when Neville’s marginalisation was set in place.) ‘Maharaji is not God’s bootlace, and the fact is he led us to believe he was God. Just as I want [Australian Prime Minister] John Howard to apologise to generations of Aboriginals for what white culture has done to them, so I want Maharaji to apologise for the damage he has caused premies. The aspirants are still not told about what really goes on in Maharaji’s world. ‘And with the local community in this region you have dug your own grave. The heightened security and the chronic secrecy about this place have turned the whole area against you. ‘My goal is to get Maharaji out of Amaroo, and then out of Australia, permanently. 'I regard this meeting as a ceasefire in a war. If we can’t negotiate terms, I will continue with my campaign.’ They didn’t negotiate terms. After 35 minutes Valerio had had enough, and began looking at his watch. The meeting concluded. Neville spent another 35 minutes on the way out conversing with yet another cop on the gate, and showing him all the stuff off EPO. Neville is, as he expresses it, ‘in the lion’s mouth’. He lives near Amaroo - having moved there from another state in the mid-1990s to do service. He has not been a part of the exoduses of premies in Brisbane and northern NSW, having reached his conclusions about M and K by himself, through many years of close-hand observation and thru reading EPO. So he is very much alone out there in the bush. It would be nice if exes here showed him a little support. He has no Internet connection right at the moment. However his phone number is 07 5463 5687 (or 61 7 5463 5687 from overseas). His postal address is: Neville Ackland MS 461 Kalbar Queensland 4309 Australia (He gave me permission to publish these.) Particularly valuable would be printouts from EPO, and other materials that anyone has. The ever-intrepid Neville wants a team to join him at the next event. He has a lovely property on the edge of a national park (I’ve stayed there often - it’s a beautiful part of the world), with a huge caravan and plenty of extra sleeping accommodation, plus a campsite for tent-pitchers. (The place is set up professionally for groups of guests.) Neville wants to conduct another ‘legal and peaceful protest’ at Amaroo. He suggests that exes from other parts of Australia and the world come and stay with him at event time. He envisages that, as well as doing the protest, people will have a holiday, and engage in constructive activities such as sign-making workshops. His basic aim is to get Maharaji to listen to ex-premies’ grievances and to respond. As well as EPO materials and the like, I’m sure Neville would be open to friendly letters, phone calls and marriage proposals. He is good-looking, with an excellent physique from all the outdoor work he does on his farm, and his hobbies are... Oh look, maybe I’ll leave that for another post. Best Regards, John

Subject: To Drug Squad From: Neville via JMcG (dictated) To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:14:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was expecting this. DS, you can do your worst. I wanted to protest at the April event, and suspected an attack of this sort might occur. So right now I’m feeling good about myself. I can do without the stress of a 12-foot marijuana plant amongst the tomatoes whilst I put myself in the spotlight. If I really want to smoke I just have to go over to my mate’s place. I must confess I’m an old hippie at heart. I only drink on special occasions, and I do enjoy a smoke with my mates. Alas in my younger days I was a bit of a larrikin. But being a single Dad to a 13-year-old son has taught me the value of discipline. So Mr DS, do what you want. I’m okay about it. I might do the same to you if I were furious, and didn’t stop to think about it. But I would regret it, because it would be a deliberate personal attack on someone who was most probably once a friend. Ideally, attack my message to Maharaji. The message was not directed at premies. My plan is clear and upfront, as I explained to Jan, Valerio and Keith. I feel I have been spiritually violated by a corrupt man, who claimed divinity, taught bhakti yoga, the yoga of devotion, and total surrender to the guru, claimed exclusive rights on four meditation techniques, and had a Dad in the business. When it looked like telling people they had to surrender every day - and give all their money - wasn’t working any more, Maharaji recalled lots of evidence and changed his image. How can Maharaji explain how one can be the saviour of the planet and perfect master one minute, and a ‘simple teacher’ with the gift of Knowledge the next? Of course this sounds preposterous, because it is. Nevertheless, he didn’t need to explain it to us premies, because we knew, didn’t we, that he was still our Guru Maharaji, Lord of the Universe, in disguise? Our little secret has developed into a culture of self-deception at Ivory’s Rock Conference Centre. Faithful old premies are often very sincere in their commitment to Maharaji. I acknowledge your sincerity, and understand what it’s like to have your sincerity rudely affronted. (By a dangerous man like me.) My accusations are serious and defamatory - directed at Maharaji, not premies. I want Maharaji to admit it’s been a balls-up and retire, that’s all. He has forced my hand by surrounding himself with security, and being unapproachable. For me personally, I want to confront injustice wherever I find it. Maharaji is only one of my projects. Oh, by the way, I’m up the second drive on the right down Mt Greville Road. There’s a Ned Kelly helmet for a letterbox, and a big sign on the tree that says: REFUGEES WELCOME Fools rule Our leaders are liars So you can’t miss it. Maybe phone first to make sure I’m home. So, no hard feelings. Hi to everyone on the ex-premie forum, and thanks for the support. And thanks to John for taking down this letter. Neville PS: I apologise if the policemen, the PR person or the elderly gentleman are embarrassed by the fact that, in telling my story to John, I inadvertently involved others.

Subject: MATES? From: silvia To: Neville via JMcG (dictated) Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:59:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: courageous being:ALL POWER TO YOU AND WHOEVER MAY JOIN THE PLAN! Do you drink mate?

Subject: I'll drop a note, my hat's off to him! From: Tonette To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:48:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: BTY, about the marriage proposal, can you tell me how old he is? His body is in great physical shape, okay. How's his teeth? Just kidding about the mail order man idea but in concept (oh no, not a concept screams my cult addled brain) an actuality that has worked in the past, only it was mail order bride. Reminds me of the story behind the movie, 'Piano.' Thanks for your post. Interesting and juicy. Regards, Tonette

Subject: AND YOU JUST COOKED HIS GOOSE From: The Drug Squad To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 00:59:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh we know what his hobbies are Macgregor. you silly twit you very silly twit

Subject: who is afraid of rawat??? From: salsa To: The Drug Squad Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:09:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that is what he wants us to feel. Screw him and all his zombies. THE STORY NEEDS TO COME OUT! My 15 yrs old son LIKES MAHARAJI/RAWAT, just because his stupid father is still a premie. How many poor people have to be sacrificez, their lives wasted in stupid dreams to satisfy his greed??? ENOUGH RAWAT, ENOUGH!

Subject: dont worry salsa, From: bill To: salsa Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:35:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your 13 year old likes his dad, wait, just a couple years from now, dad will be an alien to him. It cant be stopped. He will find his own way.

Subject: Another page from the cult playbook From: Marianne To: The Drug Squad Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:19:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee Drug Squad, I guess you are more concerned with someone smoking a couple of joints than you are with the sexual abuse of children committed by Mahatma Jagdeo, the employee of DLM/EV and Rawat. You certainly have your priorities straight! Thanks also for threatening Neville in this manner. Whenever you guys do this stuff, you just show how deeply mired in cult think you are. Making these kinds of threats and throwing this kind of dirt at someone who simply stood with a sign criticizing your master is exactly what the people around Jim Jones did to the folks who dared leave Peoples Temple and expose Jones' craziness. This is also what the Scientologists do to their critics. Yes, better that a thousand people should stand around fawning over a greedy hasbeen like Maharaji than working to protect the rights of aboriginal people. Yeah, right. Marianne

Subject: Re: Another page from the cult playbook From: david m To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:00:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right on Marianne...Your response is right on target...I really do not understand how this bull crap still exists...talk about burring you head in the sand...Peace...david m david m

Subject: Re: Another page from the cult playbook From: david m To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:00:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right on Marianne...Your response is right on target...I really do not understand how this bull crap still exists...talk about burring you head in the sand...Peace...david m david m

Subject: Thanks for saying that, Marianne [nt] From: Cynthia To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:14:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: You are interested in hobbies? From: Nottm Bunny To: The Drug Squad Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 03:22:11 (EDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Would you care to know more about some of the hobbies of the Speaker, sorry, Foundation Director and his children too? Were you involved in CAC also? What happened to the bliss and all that love? Bunny

Subject: does he need a computer? From: bill To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 19:39:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How much money per month does internet time cost there?

Subject: Anyone know? From: bill To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:30:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does he need a computer and is he poor? Having been a festival site worker for years would leave me to believe he has little for himself. He IS someone who should have access to the forum since he is such a squeaky wheel. He needs to vent. And he does have a long history of involvement. Does he type?

Subject: Question John... From: Cynthia To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:20:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Was the elderly man with the 10 gallon hat named Charles? If so, I knew him. Nice to hear about his solidarity but why's he still friends with Prem Pal Rawat? Great Report...exciting!

Subject: M has a friend? From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:21:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's big news. There was only one other non-premie that I was aware M was friendly with. Joe Gould, owner of the Kittredge Building in Denver was DLM's landlord. I recall M treated him like a father figure and maybe even a business mentor. The only social interaction M ever talked about was how he answered a question from one of his fellow flight school students. The guy, breaking the ice, asked 'So why do you always wear suits to class when the rest of us dress casual?' M's cozy reply was 'Because I can afford to.' Ha ha, the Captain sure is a joker, let's invite him out for drinks after class.

Subject: Re: M has a friend? From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:12:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember the video that Prem Rawat said that thing about 'I can afford to.' Weird. Nice social skills in the world outside himself. And a 'resplendent casual red shirt.' I never saw a resplendent shirt before, any guesses? Nice to talk to you Richard.

Subject: Of COURSE He does... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:10:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... He has MILLIONS of friends all over the world, friends who's names He doesn't even know, but He loves them anyway. And YES, He even has friends who don't have That Understanding, even though it does make them "like" dead people. Is there some special rule that says The Master can't have friends who are "like" dead people? You ex-students can be so silly sometimes! Catweasel has been patiently trying to let you know how wonderful the event really was, but you just can't hear him, because you are all to busy filtering out the good. We ALL have a wonderful friend in Catweasel, but you ex-students just don't appreciate him. Poor Kitty, you do try his patience sometimes! I somtimes wonder why he or I, or dear Mili or others even bother trying to communicate to you people at all. You just WON'T shut up and LISTSEN! :| No, you just want to wallow in unhappiness by insisting on asking pesky questions, which do you no good at all. Doesn't ANYONE appreciate the BRILLIANCE of The Master, in having a question and answers session, without the questions? As Prem explained so simply, people need ANSWERS, not questions! You never hear any other so-called "spiritual teachers" saying anything like that! I think Prem is really just too profound for the world, which explains why he is so underappreciated. And let's face it, NO ONE can tell fart jokes like The Master! Andrea Eriksonn, Who thought the event was DIVINE, and who was NOT in the communal showers with Pauline (only in your DREAMS, Dickie dear! b)), and who thought that Neville person with the sign was really quite rude, and who also knows that if he would just SHUT up and LISTEN, he wouldn't have those conflicts. :)

Subject: What a positive Spin with From: Cat To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:19:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: more than a little deceit you put on such a sad and isolated action. Quite frankly Neville's action was irrelevant to attendees after a wonderful event. Simply most people saw it as a little forlorn and sad. John ,you cant spin us, we were there. People were kind to Neville, that is all. Old friends greeted him but nothing more was going on. And the guy in the Hat? Well I'm sure some-one wanted to watch over young Nev; what do you think? Just my guess. The fact is John, apart from a bunch of about 5 or 6 people that you have been mentioning ,every-one else was overjoyed with the events. It does you little credit to twist things like this. You begin to look like a propagandist who will say anything to score points. PS;Is Neville going to charge rego? You could have a 'meeting' to find out?

Subject: Re: What a positive Spin with From: goshala To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 20:41:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: your writing reads like gossip.You seem to need the feeling that people are moving away from Maharaji in droves to support your own point of veiw. Is'nt it about time you dropped the term ex-premie. Who wants any label,be it premie, non-premie or ex-premie. What is the point of all this energy being used to continually point out all Maharajis so called failings. People do and are benifiitng from their contact with him and when they feel it is not working anymore they move away by their own accord. Of your many years of contact with Maharaji can you honestly say you never benefited in any way?

Subject: Re: What a positive Spin with From: The Other Neville To: goshala Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:55:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: About as much as I benefited from having my house robbed. The non-heroic, non-Australian Neville

Subject: To Goshala From: Will To: goshala Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:40:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Goshala, I am not John and maybe John will answer you directly, but in the meantime I would like to address your question. You write some explicit questions, but there is a general implicit question behind them all. You seem to not understand the motivation behind the struggle against Prem Rawat by some of his former students. Your main point is that there is a benefit provided by Rawat to some people, and it is best to let that benefit happen and just walk away if it is not personally beneficial. I beg to differ about your assertion of benefit. First, though, I must acknowledge that I agree with you that there are some benefits to pursuing truth in one's life, so premies may receive that benefit, but that benefit is an entirely natural outcome of being alive and learning life's lessons. However, the harm of following a supposed Master who is a savior figure and joining his personality cult is very real. At first, the harm may not be evident, and indeed, all current members of cults believe that they are benefiting. May I give you an extreme, but very real, example? The Heaven's Gate cult was lead by the Master named Marshall Applewhite who explicitly taught that he had the access to the true knowledge. All his followers thought they were benefiting, but 39 of them ended up commiting suicide expecting to land on the Hale-Bopp comet as it flew by. Ok, maybe premies are not quite that far out, and who knows, maybe all the Heaven's Gate people are living happily ever after on Hale-Bopp, but the point is that we must be very vigilant about being led astray by false teachers. Prem Rawat is a false teacher because he doesn't have the true Knowledge or the power to bestow God's grace on anyone, yet he allows people to kiss his feet thinking that they are receiving God's grace. This is insane, and you should stop kissing that guy's feet. You should quit ignoring all the facts about Prem Rawat that have been gathered here and face the fact that he is a very typical false savior figure. Now you may not personally agree with my assessment, but I hope that now you at least understand the ex-premie viewpoint and would now naturally understand why we would want to fight against Prem Rawat instead of just going away quietly with our tales between our legs, pun intended. Hope that answers your main question.

Subject: Re: To Goshala From: Gail To: Will Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:18:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Will: Your post make me spit my coffee all over the keyboard. Thanks for the laugh: Goshala: Are you that former seventeen-year-old instructor who could only say, 'Oh my gosh, Maharaji!' Indeed, this forum is not gossip. Many people are moving away from Maharaji. The term 'premie' was conveyed upon us by our Lord Maharaj Ji. Now that we are no longer one of his flock, ex-premie is a good term because its easily identified by anyone who was in the cult. Some folks, you must remember, left Maharaji decades ago, but the brainwashing number he did on them is still strong (sort of like a non-practicing Catholic) who still believes the whole diatribe and feels guilty for not attending church. Maharaji has many failings. His biggest one is his pompous parading around as the Emperor of Divinity when, in fact, he is the emperor with no clothes. The only benefit of cult belief system and an avatar (Maharaji) is that people do not have to face themselves or others. Why do you think mothers in labour are encouraged to follow their breath--TO BLOCK OUT THE PAIN. That is the only thing the techniques do. There is nothing wrong with using the techniques as a crutch upon occasion, but they certainly don't give you a bird's eye view of GOD. You mention ' when it's not working anymore they move away by their own accord.' How, my dear Goshala, can 'it' not work. We have the four aces--satsang, service, mediation, and darshan. Tell me you don't believe that Maharaji is the Lord of Lords, King of Kings to this day. It doesn't work, Goshala, because it never did. It was each of us, releasing our feel-good brain chemicals at the sight of our Lord in just the same way dogs can be trained to salivate. Some people just get tired of lying to themselves a little sooner than others. Haven't you noticed that it takes more and more effort on your part for less and less bliss (endorphins). In fact, in may well be that we severely depleted our endorphin supplie on Maharaji and his crud. You don't get high on medication. You get high on the idea of being with Maharaji, Lord of the Universe. That's the benefit--being one of the special, chosen ones. It's sick.

Subject: Re: To Goshala From: OOPS, I meant To: Gail Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:23:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You don't get high on meditation. You get high on the idea of being with Maharaji, Lord of the Universe. That's the benefit--being one of the special, chosen ones. It's sick.

Subject: Good post! nt From: silvia To: Will Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:16:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: aha

Subject: Errr....Excuse me:) From: Cat To: goshala Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 23:50:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: are you mad? Can you read English?

Subject: Re: Errr....Excuse me:) From: Catweasel To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 23:51:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are you speaking to me or John?

Subject: Re: What a positive Spin with From: goshala To: goshala Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 20:47:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My email was intented for John Macgregor not this person.

Subject: wiseal. hahahahahaha nt From: truth To: goshala Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:17:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: aha

Subject: Re: What a positive Spin with From: Roger eDrek To: goshala Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 23:20:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, goshala, but your message is read by all of us and what you are saying to John you are saying to us as well and I personally believe that you are missing a huge point here and that is that we believe that Maharaji is a fraud and the 'experience' that you talk about is really coming from within and exists without Maharaji who in my opinion is a greedy self-serving asshole who envisions himself as GOD. And don't give me any revisionsist bullshit that claims he has never portrayed himself as God because I was there.

Subject: Hey Cat... From: Cynthia To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:23:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You just got darshan we don't expect you to be thinking clearly. Also, if Prem is so gosh darn great why do you need to be posting here during a festival? Geeze. Lighten up, you just saw your LORD!

Subject: Re: Hey Cat... From: Cat To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:28:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Facts are good.They dispel bullshit

Subject: Re: Hey Cat...How ya doin' From: Gail To: Cat Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:15:51 (EDT) Email Address: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com Message: I hope you are doing well. How's the deprogramming going (just kidding)? I trust there were no lunatic chefs at Daya's to insult the unpaid help, eh? I hope you didn't work too hard this weekend and had a good time (if that's possible). I'd love to talk to you by phone again. You can call me on my quarter. If you do e-mail me, I won't give it out to anyone else. Gail

Subject: If this is 'bullshit' From: Carl To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 18:00:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: why do you care to wallow in it? Why immediately jump into the ex-forum? Methinks you are fascinated with, and not a little intrigued by, the truth spoken here.

Subject: Re: If this is 'bullshit' From: AV To: Carl Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 18:22:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: O! A Rotten eve, ma!

Subject: Re: If this is 'bullshit' From: The Barmaid To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:03:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Too many ? Too quick? A wind up?

Subject: Fantastic story From: Jim To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 14:46:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey John, Great story. I'm keeping this number and will try to say hi to Neville sometime soon. Fantastic!

Subject: Most enjoyable, John. Big thanks, Neville [nt] From: PatC To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 14:43:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Neville you are a star!!!(NT) From: Nottm Bunny To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 13:48:27 (EDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message:

Subject: What a great guy..... From: PatD To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 12:51:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....it takes serious balls to do something like that. I'll send him stuff,though why does anyone need a'workshop'to write a sign? Just being literal & pedantic.

Subject: I don't get it.. From: AV To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 13:34:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't get it.. M could have met the guy and talked, maybe resolved a lot of stuff for a lot of people, what can he possibly gain from a standoff? wounds need healing and divisions mending....you can't send in deputies when it's personal.

Subject: Re: I don't get it.. From: PatD To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 16:07:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't really understand what you don't get. He isn't interested in healing wounds & never has been.He's interested in maintaining himself in the style to which he's accustomed. The divisions he made himself, the better to rule. Why would he want to mend them? The ashes of our old dreams are bitter.I don't think any explanation he could make would be sufficient.No,the only satisfactory outcome to all this,will be when he's pinned up against the wall, having the piss taken out of him by whoever. Time is coming soon.(fingers crossed)

Subject: Re: I don't get it.. From: Gail To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:24:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji's trip can be compared to any illness. Once you admit your addiction (whatever it might be) to your loved ones, you are on the road to recovery. He cannot afford to recover, let alone allow the exs to. It would be the end of his income, and more importantly, the end of his euphoric highs at his 'programs.' He can't affort that!

Subject: Some things are priceless Gail... From: Cynthia To: Gail Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:54:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1. An oppulent home on Malibu bluff - $20 Million? 2. A 101 foot yacht - $7 Million; 3. A Gulfstream V - $40 Million; 4. A wife and a girlfirend - (any wagers?):); 5. Prem Rawat, Head of a Cult and God-In-A-Bod since age 8 - Priceless!

Subject: Re: Some things are priceless, Cynthia.. From: Gail To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:33:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep! That just about sums ($$) it all up. How can he end it all when EV assets will be given to some real charity or non-profit group such as save the hopeless. Imagine maharaji's residence being inhabited by the street scum of California? Can you see his jet being used to fly ill patients in for pro bono work! Of course, we can forget the yacht! Perhaps Green Peace could harness it to encourage bigwigs into leaving their legacies to the whales and seals. Think of the good use the assets could be put to! As for Monica--she could head the New Morality Majority. After all, she might as well put her training to good use. She certainly sold out for her rightful place in Nirvana. Check her resume--Have spent the last 20 years as a purchaser of fine trinkets for God-in-a-Bod. Who wouldn't want to hire her?

Subject: to Pat D From: AV To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:06:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess I was hoping something human might happen.... silly me

Subject: FYI From: Hmmmmmmmm..... To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 12:30:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Non-Profit Corporations Summary: A corporation that has a primary goal of public service and is not intended to distribute dividends to its shareholders. Advantages: Tax-exemption status. Tax-deductible donations. Disadvantages: Irrevocable assets. Subject to IRS approval. Full Description: A nonprofit corporation is an incorporated business which gains tax-exemption by primarily serving the community. Upon approval, the IRS will grant the designation of 501-c3, which means that a specific group has gained tax-exempt status. Tax-exempt corporations are free from paying income taxes. Another great benefit for these corporations is that donations given to them are tax-deductible for their donors. This is a very important part of the 501-c3 tax code, as grants and general donors play a large role in the fundraising efforts of most nonprofit corporations. Shareholders of a nonprofit corporation, as well as its directors, officers, and employees enjoy the same limited personal liability as do their counterparts in other types of corporations. Of course, with all of these benefits, there are certain restrictions: Assets gained by a nonprofit corporation must stay within the corporation. When a nonprofit corporation is dissolved, all of its assets must be given to another 501-c3 organization. A nonprofit organization must pay its paid employees and management reasonable salaries. These salaries are expected to increase the ability of the corporation to benefit the community and are not expected to make up a significant part of its budget. A nonprofit organization may not officially campaign for or against any candidate who is running for office. Glossary: Stock: A certificate representing ownership interest in a specific corporation. Stockholder: A full or partial owner of a corporation through the possession of stock. Tax-Exemption Status: A status recognized by the IRS which is designated as 501-c3. All profits generated by a tax-exempt entity are generally untaxable. Of course, the primary objective of a tax-exempt entity is expected to benefit the community. Unlimited Personal Liability: An owner (sole proprietor or general partner) assumes total responsibility of all debts incurred by his company. That means that his personal holdings, effects, and property are at risk to meet the financial obligations of his business. An owner and his business are legally the same entity. If an owner is married, then all community property of the marriage is also subject to loss.

Subject: belief and rationalisation From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 17:23:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just been reading a book I was given years ago called 'Sai Baba, Lord of the Air'. Never really read it properly before. It was published in 1979 and written by an ex-Baba devotee. He describes his experiences of going for private audiences with Sai Baba, who basically sexually abused him. I can't believe, actually, that this book came out 20 years ago and yet the Baba devotees are only just getting wise to what their guru's been up to. Anyway, this guy, Tal Brooke, describes his feelings when the abuse took place. Obviously he was stunned at first but then his mind quickly created rationalisations, such as 'he's doing it to explode my concepts' or 'he's so pure it can't possibly be sexual' or 'how deluded can I be to possibly doubt him' etc etc. Lots of talk in the book about 'Baba's grace' and coincidences galore brought about by said grace. There's even a transcript of a discourse where Baba claims himself to be the greatest avatar, incarnated at this time to save all.... What was really interesting was the time it took the devotees to see through him, even though he was actually having sex with countless (male) disciples. For years the ones that knew all kept it to themselves. Of course now with the internet it's all coming out and his (Western) devotees are leaving in droves. Obviously the problem is that when you accept a master as perfect, you then go on to rationalise everything they do. When I first looked at EPO I laughed out loud at the very idea that Maharaji could possibly be interested in money for its own sake. I just could not believe it. No wonder Maharaji doesn't like to give Knowledge to anyone until they have suspended all disbelief about him What if the meditation worked without any belief in him? Then where would he be? Premies really need to think this all through, for their own sakes. It actually made me feel quite sad today, to read John McGregor's informant's description of the old premies at Amaroo. It's true. You only have to look at the old premies in Passages - or talk face to face with any old premies today. For the most part, they seem to be quite lost. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: belief and rationalisation From: The Other Neville To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:56:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My favourite line from 'The Lord of the Air': 'As I stood on a street corner reading in Newsweek about some thirteen-year-old wonder known as Maharaj Ji, I suddenly vomited.' Neville (not the Australian heroic one)

Subject: Re: belief and rationalisation From: Livia To: The Other Neville Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 18:05:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know, I saw that. In fact he mentions Maharaji a couple of times in the book. He was in India from 69-71 just when the first Westerners were coming across both Maharaji and Sai Baba. I wonder what Maharaji and Sai Baba think of each other... Love, Livia

Subject: Re: belief and rationalisation From: The Other Neville To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:15:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'I wonder what Maharaji and Sai Baba think of each other...' It would be fun to put them both in a room and watch the outcome. The non-heroic Neville

Subject: Big thank you OT From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 14:08:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for what you said below , re waltz with the witchdoctor, needed that Much love, u saved the day btw

Subject: Hats off to the Witch Doctor, he told From: The Witch Doctor To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:37:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: me what to say and he said: OOO EEEE OOO EEEE AAAA BING BANG BULA WALA WING WANG OOO EEEE OOO EEEE AAAA BING BANG BANG WALA WING WANG In other words, the Perfect Master said absolute nothing of any value, and we gave ourselves over to that. Amazing, isn't it>

Subject: Visions Online gets honest From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 11:04:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Click on the above link. Honesty is the best policy realmaharaji.bravepages.com/Visions/visions.htm

Subject: maharaji (RAWAT) this, maharaji that From: silvia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 14:45:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: is all about him, the egomaniac greedy bastard! HE IS NOT AN HONEST PERSON. Don't you all think that it needs to stop? He deceives people. He makes tons of money for which he should pay taxes. He lives in my country USA and as a taxpayer I have a huge problem with his dirty, irresponsible practices in his sick enviroment. Do you? I said here before, I had a service at a Long Beach event in sales and saw what REALLY goes on. The sales of trinkets, his photos (some expensive as $850), videos, etc., a lot is bought with cash. Also, SEVERAL TIMES A DAY a premie came to collect the cash and believe me, his bag was FULL, FAT OF CASH. This hidding of the cash is going on for decades and the gov. doesn't think nothing of it? What are our testimonies, french fries? Rawat/maharaji is a disgusting person and I hope all catches up with him, soon. The sad things is that little by little, and for many of us over decades, m has programmed people to accept the fact that he makes people dependant on him and weak to pathetic levels and still people stay in the cult, they're afraid to leave, due to all 'threats' the master made....The brainwashing goes to such a deep level that people are willing to let themselves abused by their so called GOD maharaji? The premies I know cannot discussed the subject openly, they make ilogic choices. Having a logic conversation with premies is impossible when it comes to discussing THE LORD. Healthy bunch? What a bondage, and it goes AS LEGAL?

Subject: Amaroo event numbers well down From: John Macgregor To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 09:38:49 (EDT) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: You’ll all be pleased to hear that there was a strong ex-premie contingent at this weekend’s international Amaroo event, which concluded a few hours ago. Several very recent exes were inside, ostensibly doing the premie thing - and gasping in amazement at what a lot of tosh they’d fallen for in times gone by. (They haven’t gone public yet with their defections.) Another ex - who has obviously gone very public - was on the main entrance gate, with a protest sign, and visible to every person who entered the site. I suspect this latter was my old buddy Neville Ackland - certainly the description matched. Maybe someone can confirm. Security was beefed up considerably this year: speculation was that this was because of the “unpredictable” ex-premies, some of whom may be violence-prone. (Of course there isn’t a single known incidence of ex-premie violence, and several the other way - but you never know.) I’ve been asked by EV myself in recent times not to make inflammatory posts on this forum, because they may inspire acts of violence against Maharaji’s person. So maybe this speculation is true. Also, I remember from the dying days of my involvement, at a late 1990s event, being contacted by the head of the PR team to help with information on a particular incident: someone had put hundreds of Lord of the Universe posters of Maharaji all over Ipswich and Peak Crossing - the nearest towns to Amaroo. The information and graphics on the posters (I soon deduced) was straight off the EPO 1970s material. There was a major scramble to track these posters down and remove them - and another scramble to find the culprits. (I’ve since found them - but had no idea at the time.) So I imagine fear of a repeat raid by Ex-premie Guerilla Task Force was another reason behind this year's much heightened security. Anyway, once you showed your smartcard, and proved you’d paid your $A300 registration, you got onsite. Thereafter, all bags had to be checked on the way into the Q & A sessions, which were held in the late afternoons. This took hours, from some reports, and inconvenienced people greatly. Even gopis were heard to whinge - which is a rare thing for a gopi. One ex says: “There was a more serious security presence than at other times. On the way in to the Q and As there were pictures of knives saying “No knives” - though the signs vanished today. And despite the confiscation of cameras, one guy near me surreptitiously videoed the whole event.” Unhappily I didn’t get a report from backstage yet, though I imagine the Backstage Vestal Virgin Subcult swung into action as usual, after meditating and showering of course, to clean every square millimetre that the lotus toes might touch, with small cloths and toothbrushes. (Alright, I invented the toothbrushes, but those familiar with the frenzied cleaning activities of the B.V.V.S. will not find the reference too ludicrous.) For me, the most interesting report was on the event numbers: only 2900 people showed up overall. There were 4600 at the last international event. As I thought it would be, word was hastily put around that this was “only a Pacific regional event. Naturally numbers were down.” This is tosh. The event was open to premies the world over. It was well-advertised the world over. In evidence of this, I’m told three-quarters of the people asking ‘questions’ in today’s Q and A session were Europeans, not people from Australia and its neighbours. There was a significant proportion of Americans onsite. Several of us Aussie exes believed some weeks ago that the event was being officially labelled as a ‘regional’ one, but advertised world-wide, and open to premies from all countries, so that if the numbers fell short it could be said: “It was only really for Pacific locals.” Which is exactly what has happened. At the risk of being repetitious: the fact that it was not just for locals is best demonstrated by the very large Euro-American proportion of attendees. Registration ($A300) was way cheaper than in the past. Indeed you could get in for as little as $1 if you were broke. This should have induced more premies to attend, not less. The chairs in the amphitheatre were much more widely spaced than in the past, probably to make it look like more people were there than actually were. What does all this mean? For a year and a half we here in northern NSW have watched one premie after another drop out of the cult - some quietly, some rather noisily. Last week I was rung by a guy down south who’d received knowledge at (believe it or not) six years old, who’d just found EPO. In the weeks before that it was a procession of people I’d known at Amaroo over the years, all of whom (again) had found or been directed to EPO, and made their exits. On another occasion recently I mentioned my leaving K to a ‘fringe’ premie friend - the only time in my recollection that I’ve raised the subject with a premie, as opposed to having it raised with me. I told her about EPO, and the rest is history - well, her previous attitudes to Maharaji are history. I know the people here in my area who have exited in the last year or two have similar stories to tell, regarding friends or acquaintances. Anyway, the point I’m trying to make is that this has been to some extent the boiling frog syndrome. For some time we’ve all watched the anecdotal reports suggesting a cult in collapse: 1. Our own departures, of course 2. The departures of friends 3. The swelling numbers here on the forum 4. EV’s mounting paranoia regarding EPO and the forum (e.g. CAC, and possibly the recent attempts to discredit Michael Dettmers's memory of past events.) 5. M’s growing concerns about security (Just before I left he announced to a meeting of honchos that he wanted security cameras on every gate throughout Amaroo, and perhaps foolishly allowed the direction to be minuted.) 6. The routine manipulation of Aspirant Session numbers to make it look like more people are asking for K than actually are (If one person attended aspirant events 11 times in three months, believe it or not EV’s figures recorded 11 separate aspirants) 7. Last year’s ‘winds of change’ tour round the planet by an Aussie organiser, to spread M’s message re the dissolution of EV 8 EV’s continuing, drastic financial losses arising from 11/9, and its intractable costs. (For example Amaroo costs $1 million a year to maintain when it’s just in ‘caretaker’ mode - mostly in loan repayments.) 9 The visible fall in attendees at the few remaining video events. However all this has been kind of bitty, and anecdotal. We’ve not till now had a true picture of what the demographics were doing. I suggest that, from today, we do. A fall from 4600 to 2900 is a fall of 1700 people. It’s a 37 per cent decline. The spectacularly successful EPO can take the lion’s share of the praise for this, in my opinion. As can those pioneers here who set it up, and its present webmaster John Brauns, who has done so much to improve and augment the site. Many of us are extremely grateful to you. The guy who rang me from down south last week is too - he read EPO for a few hours, made a decision to delete Maharaji from his life, had one phone conversation with me - and that was it. We won’t be hearing from him here probably, but he is one of the (doubtless) many who quietly slip away, in the direction of a normal life. Another person - an ex-Amaroo chap - has spent up to 12 hours a day (sic.) on EPO in recent weeks. He’s had spectacular changes in his life, and I notice a much more ‘up’ tone in his voice than I’ve heard before. Anyway, what of the remainder stuck in the cult? Well, before the Q and A sessions it was apparently explained by Maharaji that you couldn’t actually ask questions. (“What people need is answers.”) Is George Orwell out there somewhere? Someone stood up and aid she’d used up all her credit cards flying round the world to see Maharaji. He said, ‘That sounds normal.’ ‘I want to be with you for a million years,’ gushed another. ‘All I want to do is be physically close to you,’ said another woman. Maharaji made fun of her by intimating that she wanted to have sex with him. (I didn’t get her hair colour.) Two questions later, a guy asked if he could fly on M’s plane with him as he’d promised him he could 20 years ago. M said yes - which my informant thought was rather callous to the poor woman who wanted to be with him physically, and who’d been sent up mercilessly for saying so. M dodged any tricky premie statements with waffle, piffle and a certain amount of twaddle. I believe a quantity of balderdash and tripe was thrown in for good measure. For example a guy who said he’d ‘been on a rollercoaster with K for 30 years’ got the old verbal runaround: meaninglesss vagaries and a few jokes. Finally, just today, in the Q and A session, someone called Maharaji the Lord. Maharaji did not contradict the statement, nor reiterate the clear assertion on EV’s website that he ‘has never claimed to be God’. ‘The level of devotion was frightening,’ said my informant. ‘One thing I really noticed was that the recent premies still had some life in their voices - clear and strong in some cases. Not so for the old ones.’ The ‘no-questions please’ Q and A sessions were in the late afternoon at Campground A. Premies sat on carpet. The satsangs, and the darshan lines which ensued - not sure how many days darshan happened - were in the mornings, and were very, very hot from all reports. (I guess it was a good thing that the number were down.) The satsangs began at 8.30am, tho gates were apparently locked at 7am. (!) M sat for the first time on a two-seater blue couch - my informant thinks because he’s gotten somewhat larger. ‘He filled most of it.’ How long did M speak in the afternoon? I asked one ex. “Fucking long!” quoth he. “The realisation that he didn’t really have a clue what to say when he got up there - and the sheer inanity of what he said - was the shock for me. He talked how he set up his website, and what an absolute genius he is - and how much garbage there is on the web in general. He said, in so many words: ‘Who needs information anyway?’ In a nutshell, it was a boring program. Security heavily eyeballed anyone who talked. The exes talked a lot, and had a few good laughs at inappropriate moments, so we got eyeballed a lot.” “There were several subtle references by Maharaji to the ex-premie site,” said another ex. Other reports suggest that AC (below) may be right in saying that quite a few of those who received K at this event were young people, which is depressing. My informants stress that all the above is to the best of their recollections. A few details may be awry, but most of it very close to what happened, they believe. More information as it comes to hand. John

Subject: Re: Amaroo event numbers well down From: salam To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 00:31:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't help but reading this. What about stink bombs, did they say anything. Oh I better not say anything otherwise EV or RR may send me the Australian Fedral Police this time. I heared some people were planing to hire the adjoining land and blaste crow sounds, any ideas?

Subject: Were hammers allowed? From: salsa To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 08:55:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Where the instructors' bags also checked for knifes, guns, hammers? The cult is in denial, or the PAMS came up with a need to search everybody just for the show, to make us exes look bad in the eyes of the premies? The most dangerous people are the fanatic devotees who I have heard many of them say 'I would do anything for M'. What actions would a premie justify for the LORD? The biggest example was Mahatma Fakiranand, close to maharaji in those 70s days, who attacked a person with a hammer....so brutally that the attacked person will carry a metal plate in his head, forever. hmmmmm....so, I must reason that the Amaroo search had the intention to make us exes look bad, solely. As you said, there is no violence evidence from exes toward m. No, we ex-premies have now a working brain and we use logic, therefore, we are not dangerous. Who in the hell would dirty their hands, jeophradize their freedom to attack the BLAB? Ridiculous, eh? The active, devoted premies who believe m is GOD are the dangerous ones. How many threats have we received here? Thanksfor the news. Always fun to hear what we managed to escape from.

Subject: Everyone -no exceptions!()) From: Cat To: salsa Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 01:23:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Everyone was checked no exeptions. Tell me , why do you assume the excercise was aimed at you?The whole world is very , very edgy at the moment. Large gatherings here in Oz are all checked. Maybe we just have a safety first consciousness?

Subject: A 'safety first consciousness?' Hahaha From: Cynthia To: Cat Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:10:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee Cat, Just can't get that word 'consciousness' out of your mind, eh? How about conscience? Been thinking about why all you folks would post here after the big tent revival with the Lawd. Interesting. I want to add that I call myself an ex-premie because I have released myself from the bonds of your lying thug of a guru. That means I see through his transparencies and reject him outright. Also, for the record, ex-premies aren't living in the past. It's Prem who is living in the past because he's got so much shit to cover up he's fixed on the past. Fakiranand, Jagdeo, and all Maharaji's lies, lies, lies. Takes a lot of effort to keep all the spin and revision straight. So it really is Maharaji, a pathetic has-been, spinning webs of deceit. If you hate ex-premies so much, why spend your time here after such a Glooorious event? I remember how it felt after a program. Have you crashed yet?

Subject: TOO funny nt ()) From: salsa To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:30:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hahahhahaha

Subject: The best for years... From: Cat To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 02:49:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You and your friends(and surprise ,surprise ,I think I know at least two...) must have been somewhere else. This event was exhilarating.It was a blast...FUN!!! (Remember fun you serious insect?):P Security? Are you kidding ?There was less tha ever . You could walk around freely and without hindrance. OK so there was a process in place to ensure a clean,secure enviroment. You been to anything bigger than a love-in lately John? Say a concert or the Football? Bag inspections are common place in todays enviroment. And did your observers not notice that the Security 'bag searching' were paid professionals? And yeah that one guy ...He reminded me of the silly bugger with the sign outside the railway station with the 'DOOM' sign. Bit sad really. The Knives , Cans and Camera's signs were there everyday. Fine by me, I like the idea of knowing that such items are restricted. I hate the idea of a can in the back of the head ...or a knife from some lunatic. Camera's?Last year they were permitted and honestly I felt like a penguin emerging from the surf at Phillip Island . Way too much Flash!:D There is no such fear specifically that X's will be violent from what I could see.It's simply a general thing. It's a pretty freaky world out there John or havent you noticed - nice up Byron way? It was a great event John .It was really nice to catch up with so many lovely genuine kind people. People who I can say I am really happy to have met and enjoyed in my lifetime. Prem was amusing compassionate and compelling.It was a little warm at times but there was no queueing as you try and describe it. People went early to get the best seats.Really early.They waited quietly and then when the place opened got the seat of their choice. There is no mystery to any of this John. It's not some Conspiracy fiction for most of us. It's a delicious chance to focus on the beauty of our lives and listen to the person who for over 30 years has simply told us to enjoy it - it is a beautiful gift, and it's addressed to you.Pull it out of your funky little wooden box John and have another look - it's alive!!

Subject: Re: The best for years... From: Gail To: Cat Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:52:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How quickly you have changed your master's handle from Maharaji to Prem. When that grows tired, he will become your Pal. Just another in the long list of Sant Ji, Guru Maharaj Ji, Maharaj Ji, Maharaji in an attempt to revise his past. Good grief. He must think that his devotees have no long-term memory left. Cat, I can't believe you're still involved. Maybe you will need a chef to bark at you after a trip half-way around the world to get you to snap out of it. Oh, Catweasel, he's not telling the truth. He never did. Remember the 'Swan' story. I'm telling you--wake up!

Subject: Re: The best for years... From: Lou To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 18:32:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep...it was way cool! i am in Sydney airport now, on my way home...i had a blast sorry to say to all the sour Grapes Club

Subject: What awful company you keep, Cat! From: PatC To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 03:42:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''The Knives , Cans and Camera's signs were there everyday. Fine by me, I like the idea of knowing that such items are restricted. I hate the idea of a can in the back of the head ...or a knife from some lunatic.'' You added: ''There is no such fear specifically that X's will be violent from what I could see.'' To me that means, if the security measures were not for nuts from the outside like ex-premies, then some premies can't be trusted not to stick a knife in your back. I guess all us peace-loving flower-children must have left the cult and only the sharks are left. Actually I'm just kidding. I know most of the premies are relatively sane and decent and that you are just spinning Rev Rawat's growing paranoia.

Subject: Getting more intimate every time, eh? From: JHB To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 03:17:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat, One dream of all premies is to be in an intimate situation with Maharaji. Looks like it's becoming true for all the remaining pwicks. Cat, don't you think it's strange that you need someone to remind you to enjoy life? Since I stopped listening to Maharaji, I find that it comes naturally. Anyway, all the best in your dwindling cult. John.

Subject: genius :) OT From: silvia To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:32:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I will repply soon yoru email about spanish site. c u

Subject: Re: Getting more intimate every time, eh? From: Jerry To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 16:11:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat, don't you think it's strange that you need someone to remind you to enjoy life? I was just thinking that, John. It's weird that premies turn to Maharaji to learn how to enjoy life. How about just doing what you like doing? Of course, turning to Maharaji to find God made sense in a crazy sort of way. Supposedly, God sends his annointed ones to liberate those seeking him. Maharaji was supposed to be just such a person, the Living Perfect Master, the last hope for this age. But premies aren't into that anymore. I wonder why (not really). It's because as time passed they found out it was all bullshit. But instead of just letting go, it's as if they've settled for this lame consolation prize, that if Maharaji hasn't shown us God, well at least he reminds us to enjoy life. Get a life is what you should do if hearing Maharaji yap on about the gift of life is all you want. You've got to want more than that. That CAN'T be all it takes. It just can't be.

Subject: Re: Getting more intimate every time, eh? From: The Other Neville To: Jerry Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:08:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: '...a fanatic is one who redoubles his efforts when he has forgotten his aim.' —George Santayana

Subject: Yes, everyone is gonna get From: Tonette To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 11:20:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A front row seat at last! In fact, I would not be surprised to see M pay the remaining PWK to attend his events. After all, you have to have some filler to show on the videos you sell to the dish. He needs that footage! Naw, just kidding, M is way to greedy to spend one of his dimes to pull off his stunts. If it doesn't make money, he ain't interested! Fondly, Tonette

Subject: Hey fiesty Tonette :D (OT) From: Cynthia To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 16:08:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Tonette+), I'm emoticoning today. It's Pat Conlon's fault. He was experimenting and it was catching. Then I saw a post about some forum and thought is was 'Peachy.'B) Good posts Tonette, I loved them. Did you get my email? I drank more wine than usual this weekend. Had guests, etc...so I hope I made sense.:p Nothing new here except after a week of 85 F.deg. weather it's now snowing and 32. All day. It's georgeous and won't last--poor man's fertilizer Mom says. Everything is closed down 'til summer. The ski areas are dead thank GAWD:C) So how are you? Good to see you here. I've been feeling flakey and fun lately, so don't mind me if I'm a bit goofy. I liked what you said: 'Everybody gets a front row seat.' Funny. I was thinking today about my youngest sister. When she graduated from highschool in 1976 I deserted her in Connecticut and went to a goddamned program instead. It was when my folks were still together and my little sister had it bad living as an only child there. Sometimes when a program happens I think about the many family events I skipped for a fucking GooRoo.}) I think Maharaji, Prem Pal, or Prem, depending on how ''intimate'' one wants to be with his lardship,,,I think he ought to pay us Not To Go To Programs. HaHa. It's only fair. Say, a thousand bucks per program. No fewer than 12 per year. If he's gonna be a freak-show he needs to do a freaky thing like give us money.' ~)~)~) That means I'm serious. Email when you can... Love, Cynthia, and I thought I could start digging garden beds today...grrrrr:|

Subject: Hey lighthearted, OT From: Tonette To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:20:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just read your email. Yes it made perfect sense, you had a blast! Lucky. I could use some fun like that. I didn't think that my posts were that great but I'm glad you enjoyed them. Yes, what a way to look at the GooRoo, he is a freak show! Without a doubt. Do you think you could sit thru a program without several snickers not to mention outright laughter? How about when the audience laughs at some ridiculously unfunny joke? Where's Rod Sterling? Are they still producing the 'Twilight Zone?' Have we got a script for them! I'll mail you. Been digging myself in the garden, you'll be there soon enough. Funny weather Vermont. It's amazing to see the plants I'd forgotten from last summer making their merry way back from winter. My peonies are blooming. The hostas are up and the rose is filled with buds! Gotta do something about the pond, needs a new liner. Now where is that 6'2', 210 lb son? Anyway, I'll write soon. Love, Tonette

Subject: Yes, everyone is gonna get From: Tonette To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 11:16:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Getting more intimate every time, eh? From: Cat To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 04:53:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's how you 'enjoy life' John.I like to sit down and get right to it's very essence - my essence())........

Subject: Re: Getting more intimate every time, eh? From: Jerry To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 16:17:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm curious, Cat. How often do you strike this 'essense' compared to the amount of times you've suddenly found your mind drifting, gently reminding yourself to get back in focus? How many times do you skip meditating because, in all likelihood, you won't find your 'essense' if you do? Be honest.

Subject: Re: Getting more intimate every time, eh? From: Cat To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:22:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mostly every day (find it) and yes I practice every-day - I like it!

Subject: Re: Getting more intimate every time, eh? From: Bolly Shri To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 07:20:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Surely you would like to enjoy YOUR life. It sounds as if what you are happy with now is basking in the glow of some exploitative guru who tells you that to enjoy life you need to revolve around him. But that's so dull . Why not centre your enjoyment around your values and aspirations be an individual with your own dreams it might be fun. To follow slavishly the directives of another persons mind is to deny that you have anything worthwhile within, so what is the point of contemplating your inner self only to see what someone else tells you is there. Hope you gave lots of dosh in the darshan line love Bolly Shri

Subject: Your essence, or a high? From: JHB To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 05:12:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat, Do you have any evidence; other than the fact that it feels good, timeless, boundless, and generally splendid; that what you refer to as your 'essence' is in fact that? I'm sure you know that the human brain can be stimulated to feel all kinds of things, so to assign a fundamental interpretation to those feelings such as 'essence', is quite a serious step. To do so requires, in my view, a little more evidence than subjective feelings. This is a serious enquiry, as I'm open to the possibility that it is possible to directly experience one's 'true self' through a practice such as meditation, but I need a little more evidence than being told that's what it is. Hoping for a serious reply. John.

Subject: Re: Your essence, or a high? From: Cat To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:27:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a strange question. Here is the answer.I felt really good. Normally I feell pretty good, but hey this time I felt really good. Now when I feel really good the last thing I want to do is analyise why(notice my spelling?) Try it John and give that brain a rest....

Subject: Cat, you did the analyzing! From: JHB To: Cat Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 01:50:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat, You did a BIG bit of analyzing when you called what you experience your 'essence'. Can't you see that? I'm saying, by all means analyze, but at least look for some evidence other than 'I feel really good'. So Cat, do you still say it's your essence? John.

Subject: Analysis is paralysis. nt! From: Tim G To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:16:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: T

Subject: Semantics!:D From: Cat To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:13:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know exactly what I mean John...try any word you like but you know what I mean. You never forget.That's both your boon and your burden. You can't fool yourself!:p

Subject: Cat, I am not playing here From: JHB To: Cat Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 03:00:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat, You described what you experience when practicing the techniques as your 'essence'. Now either it is or it isn't. If it is, this is pretty important stuff. If it isn't then your basis for believing in Maharaji goes right out of the window. This isn't semantics, it's at the heart of what we are doing here. For myself, if evidence comes to light that it is our 'essence' then I still wouldn't trust Maharaji, but that's just me. However, if what you experience is just neuromasturbation, then Maharaji is just a teacher of wanking. Would you still want to follow him? John.

Subject: You have forgotten how()) From: Cat..I know()) To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:48:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thimk you are pretty much cerebal...terminally so. Prem said he loves to think. So do I. But I also enjoy feeling the quiet . And as they say about Australia's Northern Territory - 'You'll never ,never know if you never, never go' John; you need to reflect.Give it a little rest.........

Subject: But I have been, Cat From: JHB To: Cat..I know()) Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:14:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat, I have been there, and yes, I enjoyed it. Now I'm simply asking where it was I went. You say it's my essence. I see no evidence of that. I have asked you if you have any evidence for this quite fundamental statement, and so far you haven't answered me. So, Cat, do you have any evidence that what you experience is your essence? John.

Subject: Re: But I have been, Cat From: reflection To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 08:52:12 (EDT) Email Address: n/p Message: jhb. if you have been there, as you say, and you doubt it's your essence, it's positive ; you havent been there. once you know, YOU KNOW, nobody has to tell you, and your intellect shut up, there are no doubts. in my case, i have been in that place of pure love and peace. i have not doubts that is what i am made of, you are made of, and every living creature is made of. im sure. i know. you and the whole world cantell me its not true. it doesnt matter. i know what i know.

Subject: John, don't you know? From: Jim To: reflection Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:21:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: People who know know. People who know don't speak and people who speak don't know and people who know don't use proper punctuation and people who use proper punctuation don't know. Simple.

Subject: I have been there From: JHB To: reflection Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:10:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have been there, and I had no doubts either. But then, I had been told beforehand that such a place existed, and that it was my true self. Afterwards, my intellect ascribed the experience to Maharaji. Now that I have read that such experiences can be triggered in so many ways, I certainly no longer give Maharaji any credit, but I also doubt whether the experience is what I felt it was. Knowing is something that the brain does. I now believe that the experience is something like a powerful sensation of 'knowing' without the thought of the object of that 'knowing'. I may be wrong, hence my repeated request for some evidence other than 'I simply know'. John.

Subject: Re: I have been there From: Cat To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:19:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? It's something you feel, It's irrelevant where it comes from,but only you can feel it. You and Jim are totally cerebal. Adopt a more wholistic approach to your being and you may find your days more satisfying.....

Subject: Re: I have been there From: JHB To: Cat Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 18:33:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? It's something you feel, It's irrelevant where it comes from,but only you can feel it. You and Jim are totally cerebal. Adopt a more wholistic approach to your being and you may find your days more satisfying..... --- WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? It's something you NEED to think about, It's very relevant where it comes from, but only you can think for yourself. You and Reflection have intellect that you are suppressing. Adopt a more wholistic approach to your being and you may find your days more satisfying..... John.

Subject: stions From: la-ex To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 23:00:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks John for that report...its always nice to see the results of the good works that have gone into EPO paying off, with more cult defections each month.... I had a few questions: 1-Can you tell us more about EV's request to you to tone down the 'inflammatory' posts? It seems absurd that they would request that, and I was just wondering if you would share with us how that happened, and what they said to you? 2-Do you know what the sign said that was displayed at the entrance by the ex? Did they try to prevent him from doing it? 3-Can you encourage any other exes who attended to post some of their observations? Any chance anything was videotaped? 4-Any info on the refrences M made about EPO? 5-Other anecdotal info, especially on how the lard is taking this new level of resistance to his bullshit? Observations? Strategies they may be taking? Their viewpoint about EPO and the ex-premie movement? 6-General gossip about lard, pams, family, tours, toy sales etc.... Just curious, Thanks John, La-ex

Subject: The sign probably said.... From: Tonette To: la-ex Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 11:14:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My guess, the sign displayed a message with this sort of sentiment: I got fucked by Maharaji I thought I was having fun Except for the soul eating virus he inflicted me with

Subject: a few answers From: J McG To: la-ex Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 06:04:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi LA Ex, Can't say much about the request from EV, as I keep such contacts confidential at their request. I know it means subscribing to cultish standards. But the option is to burn my bridges, and eliminate trust, and therefore future communication. I regard communication as the most imprtant thing of all, so... The gate protestor is apparently ringing me tonight, so will say more if I learn it. I have encouraged my main source to post here. Whether he does is up to him. Can't be more specific about the subtle EPO refs, as I wasn't there. As to general gossip, background info et al: not much. I'll post excerpts from the below draft policy statement from Amaroo management, relating to M’s 1996 visit. That will give you the idea of the priorities of the place when M's physical form is imminent. Best Regards, John [The RSO is the Residence Support Office, and the Staff Support area refers to the area where Maharaji’s staff lived. I've taken out names so as not to personalise it.] Policy Statement (this is a preliminary draft only). The sole criteria for the up coming Visit and Conference is to ensure the comfort, privacy and enjoyment of the Principal, his staff and delegates during their stay at Amaroo. All the assistance in setting up and running the Visit is deeply appreciated and it is hoped that all helpers recognise their function is as staff only. Front Gate: Front Gate ensures only authorised staff or guests are admitted onsite. All conference staff will require authorisation via _________ and be issued an identification tag by Front Gate. Design and construction staff will not be issued with passes - arrangement will be made on a daily basis in liaison with ____________. RSO Residence Support Office (formerly Front-of-House): Purpose: To support the orderly flow of goods, services and staff to the principal and staff support area. All deliveries for the principal and staff support areas should go to the RSO. The comfort of the client and his staff is paramount - all IRCC staff and helpers should recognise that they are staff, not guests. Caretakers: Will maintain an enhanced perimeter surveillance. Meetings (including Design & Construction) : In general, meetings should be arranged at an off-site location. Before onsite meetings are organised for design and construction, their suitability for time and location must be verified with _____ or _____ in advance. Unless arranged in advance, design and construction staff should not be onsite during the visit. All other meetings on site also require approval. All staff should only be where they are suppose to work and limited to the time required to complete the job. When work is finish, we request all staff to leave the site promptly. Please consider the Principal and his guests first before carrying out any function. It is the supervisor/manager responsiblity to ensure their staff leave the site promptly when their job is completed. Overnight Accommodation: Only by prior arrangement for key staff.

Subject: ()) !996???? From: Cat To: J McG Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:32:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Way out of date. New management John. Remember? You seem to be living in the past.

Subject: Above post is 'A few questions'...nt From: la-ex To: la-ex Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 23:01:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Amaroo event numbers well down From: Tim G To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 18:00:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks John, I don't know how you can manage to stomach one of those events. I suppose it will all quietly fizzle out. It did for me about twenty years ago now, but this forum has provided a very useful service and a very entertaining source of information. The big loosers were ourselves. But maybe it (the cult exoerience) had some use: We met some great people, still some of my best friends in and out (mostly out). We learnt a bit about human nature, the power of suggestion, group dynamics and yes 'self knowledge'. By that last remark I mean that we learnt to watch our reactions to other people's assertations. How it is so easy to rely on other people's 'experience'. Basically how easy it is to con others especially when it comes to inculcating a belief in the invisible. Anyway thanks for your frontline work and greeting to your fellow exs, Love Tim

Subject: Hilarious, no questions? From: Cynthia To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 16:47:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great lengthy report John, thank you. It makes me laugh for him to sit and have a Q&A session but no questions, just his answers. I can just picture him on a big blue love seat LOL! What you reported about the woman in Q&A: ‘All I want to do is be physically close to you,’ said another woman. Maharaji made fun of her by intimating that she wanted to have sex with him. All I have to say about that is WHAT A PIG!!!! Really, now... Thanks again John and also to the other brave exes.

Subject: This is definetly not true From: Cat To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 01:35:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who told you that story John. What actually happened was that the woman in question was joking that she would like to be closer and Prem asked to sit closer down the front! She originally asked him if she could sit on th couch with him..It was really sweet..He said would you like to be closer an d so he said come on down !!She then said she had no family and expressed exactly what Prem had meant to her,and how much she liked him.And OHHH she was very happy! Like I said ,whover told you that John was slightly pyschotic...but then we know that s/he (and I know who it was Johnno) has had a few visits to the Clinic.The other person may well feel a little different to what they tell you. I was watching.Smiled at all the wrong times for your story to fit...

Subject: It was so ugly From: It's True! To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 16:25:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It couldn't have been more horrible! M sat on a couch shooting bunnies in his bathrobe while we stood and swung arti trays. Then he opened a big bag of mail up and proceeded to tear up our precious correspondence to him, right in front of us! His callous disregard and total lack of connection with us was never more evident than when I stood, grabbed the mic, and tried to quote Euripides to demonstrate the depth of my profundity and wittiness and he laughed at me. At my brilliance! I'm so glad our ranks are swelling. I count at least 2 1/2 new posters since late February! Yes, we showed him! We went there and demonstrated how to have a really crappy time, making fun of former friends and loved ones and emerging unscathed by the beauty of the setting and the laughing, grinning fools around us. Triumph!

Subject: What a stupid post From: Tonette To: It's True! Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 10:57:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, a little advice, if you want to be a troll, at least make your post original. You sound extremely stupid.

Subject: That would be funny but for the sad fact From: PatC To: It's True! Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 17:15:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..........that everyone was there for no other reason than to adore their massa. Woof! Down boy. Even sadder that you have to defend him.

Subject: The Simpsons and the cult From: Peter Howie To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 18:54:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I saw an episode of the Simpsons last night where they are all taken over by the Movementarian cult. It is most amusing and as I laughed I was painfully aware about how close to the truth it really was both for myself and for others. I looked uneasily at my partner to see if she found it as amusing as I did or did one need to have been part of a cult to really get the humour. At one level their humour could be considered very sad. At another level - well I am somewhat at a loss. Cheers Peter Howie

Subject: Hank Hill and the cult... From: Cynthia To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 05:32:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Peter, There's a cartoon on Sunday nights before Simpsons on Fox called 'Hank Hill.' A parody of Texas folks and very funny. Hank's grown neice, Lou-Ann (a beauty school drop-out) goes to college and gets sucked into joining a sorority after being rejected by a snooty one and it turns out to be a cult. Girls only and they all have to call themselves Jane and no eating meat. Hank's wife Peggy goes to see Lou-Ann and Peggy gets sucked in too. So Hank rescues everybody (except the original 'Jane') by bringing his good 'ole Texas boys to the gates of the sorority with a few grills and start grilling a lot of big fat steaks. He said ''They caint think straight, they've got no protein.'' LOL Hank deprogrammes them by giving them free hunks of beef right off the grill. A happy ending. And I did laugh harder than my husband. It wasn't as funny to him. I guess one has to have been there... One 'Jane' gets kidnapped by deprogrammers during the show. :) Cynthia

Subject: They just don't care From: Peter Howie To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 20:22:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My memory was that I didn't care if MJ said anything profound I just wanted to be with him. The content didn't matter. And whatever he said I could make some sense of it. It was so open. The only problem was when someone disagreed with me on what he had really meant. That was a tricky point and conseuqently rarely happened. It was quite dreamlike - in that there was an air of unreality and detachment from normal rules. I'm remembering that I was very good at avoiding certain areas of thought to do with MJ while focussing on others. Mind you I still do that - it is often called a 'blind spot'. Blind spots require a fairly decent investment of time and effort. Blind spots also provoke great defensive responses because of the time and investment required. Anyway don't you dare tell me my hair looks like a wig - you - -you - - big nose. Cheers Peter Howie Brisbane, Australia

Subject: But I do - you left something out From: PatC To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 03:50:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''I looked uneasily at my partner to see if she found it (the Simpsons in a cult) as amusing as I did or did one need to have been part of a cult to really get the humour.'' Well, did she or didn't she? You can't leave me hanging.

Subject: Re: But I do - you left something out From: Peter Howie To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 03:59:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: She was amused about 50%. Peter

Subject: Well, thanks! :C) [nt] From: PatC To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:01:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hello expremie festival goers From: Marianne To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 15:43:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John: That was an excellent report. I do thank whomever stood at the gate with the sign. Do you know what it said? Did anyone say anything to the sign holder? Thanks also to the folks who put up the LOTU posters near to Amaroo several years ago. It's funny, it gets the point across, and no harm is done. Can't wait to read those first hand reports from some of the actual attendees. Get out there and do some arm twisting, John. Marianne

Subject: Great report John From: Kelly To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 14:49:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is very good to hear there was such a strong ex-premie presence. So many moles could make quite a mess of those mountains! Well done Neville (or whoever) for standing at the gates. There's nothing quite like an up to date first hand report from the trenches. This makes a very good case for some of us remaining anon to achieve just this. Thanks to all of them for putting themselves through it. Did they do darshan as well? I would have, just to take a good look at him through new eyes. I assume that you could not go yourself because you have come out in such a public way?!? I look forward to your future reports on the event. Keep up the good work! Kelly

Subject: Thank you, John From: PatC To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 13:16:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was better than anything in today's Sunday paper. Many thanks for taking the time to share that.

Subject: Good report John...cheers [nt] From: Dermot To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 10:21:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: a premie shows his true colours From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 08:57:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Want to to hear it straight? I think that it's just a lot of grace that Maharaji hasn't pulled the plug on you when you pulled the plug on him. That's what I think. This is what Mili posted to me over on Life's Great on the great grace debate. It brings to mind born again Christians telling you that if you don't believe what they do, you're destined for hell-fire. I wonder what Mili means exactly? How do they think this 'ordinary human being' can 'pull the plug' on another one who lives thousands of miles away? Wow!!!! I think this exposes what is truly at the heart of many premies' belief system. It's dark, primitive and even ultimately malevolent towards those who no longer share that belief system. With love to all, Livia

Subject: Re: a premie shows his true colours From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 08:19:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now someone's called me a 'barren old hag' over on Life is Growling. Rather suddenly the premies are beginning to come across more and more as rabid beasts and the exes as paragons of sanity. Just what I didn't expect to find when I first looked at EPO. Love to all you rather warm, cuddly people Livia

Subject: he never abandons you From: salsa To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 14:48:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: haahahhahahaha GOD M has compassion and allows you to live....what a retarted person the Lard makes of people! imaginay gods have strange powers, ())lol

Subject: They'd like us to rot in hell From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 13:47:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, Livia, you got what you asked for when you posted that over there. Mili's was probably the most honest answer. You said: ''I think this exposes what is truly at the heart of many premies' belief system. It's dark, primitive and even ultimately malevolent towards those who no longer share that belief system.'' Definitely primitive and malevolent as the CAC attacks attest.

Subject: Re: They'd like us to rot in hell From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 13:52:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: er, not peace and love man, then? pity THAT PLACE INSIDE don't come outside so we can all feel the breeze mm

Subject: Re: a premie shows his true colours From: Vicki To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 09:35:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was told by a premie that the then 'Maharaji' understood what I was going through and his 'grace' would be there to see me through when I couldn't attend a program when taking my mom to chemo. This wasn't that long ago. Add to that Bill Patterson telling the story of Maharaji saying 'Wherever Marolyn goes, grace follows' to drive the point home that grace favored some more than others. There's grace alright. The grace of this universe, the fact that we are living and wired to accept and give love. There's also kindness and there's also cruelty. If you want to argue the freewill theory, that's it in a nutshell for me. It doesn't just come down to the last breath in our bodies. There's power way beyond the one that breathes this body.

Subject: Grace, its not his. From: Kelly To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 15:50:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Vicki, Just wanted to say hello. I've been thinking about you such a lot. I don't know if you have talked much here about your mother's death, which I'm sure has had a profound effect on your life. I know that you have experienced a lot of grace recently through her dying and since. I sincerely hope that no-one here has an argument about the existence of grace.....just the ownership! I have recently watched videos of M circa 1979 talking incessantly about Guru Maharaji's grace...and how it is not even possible to surrender the reins of your life without said grace and without that it is not possible for any human being to experience joy in this life...so there! I think that this encapsulates what I most abhor about MandK, the way he took over the most beautiful, pure and innocent aspects of my sincere quest for the sacred and truthful in my life and made them his own. It's been a challenge ever since to re-examine the same avenues with just as fresh eyes! Thanks for that powerful insight. Kelly

Subject: Hey Kelleeeeeeey...... From: Vicki To: Kelly Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 19:11:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know where your e-mail address has disappeared to in my computer. Drop me a note when you have a minute. I haven't gone into detail here about my mom's passing. I read the forum and every once in a while stick in an annonymous two cents sentence, but only rarely. I just haven't had much energy. I'm really out of balance since all this. I told my husband I really needed to get away and rest and let my brain and body catch back up with each other, but after suspending tutoring for the past couple of months to care for her, I needed to get back on track with the kids. Thanks for thinking of me. I'm in the double whammy second phase and it's definitely harder than the first. She's still very real in my heart though. Very real.

Subject: Re: a premie shows his true colours From: Livia To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 11:06:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It reminds me of a story Maharaji once told, about the new arrival in heaven on his guided tour with St.Peter. Groups of Hindus, Jew, Buudhists, Moslems, and then a brick wall from behind which chanting could be heard. 'Who's behind the wall, then?' asked the new arrival. 'Oh, that's the Christians,' said Peter. 'Why the wall?' asked the new arrival. 'Well, that's because they think they're the only ones up here.' Bring the story up to date by creating another walled compound for the premies. Love, Livia

Subject: Update From: Amaroo Crew To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 00:34:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Beautiful event in Campground A. M on a big couch and the audience spread out on the grass. People were invited to make comments and M responded. All speakers expressed how much they had benefited from Knowledge. Sat under a tree today and watched the people come out from darshan. Someone told me that half the people in the Knowledge session were under 25. Everything is great except Fine Dining which, according to my rich friends, has not been great. AC

Subject: Could you tell me if From: Jethro To: Amaroo Crew Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 00:47:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'darshan' still means that all the pwks walk passed Maharaji in single file and each pwk bows down to kiss his foot. Oh yes and do the pwks still get those free empty envelopes to put money or jewellary in, as they're going in to darshan. And oh oh yes, do thet still get the sweetie afterwards. Are people still allowed to faint?

Subject: Re: Could you tell me if From: Crispy To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:07:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can also tell you what it was like last year at Amaroo 2001: M's darshan line was set up behind shades off to the side (in between the K center and the food/shopping Hub), while the long line extended all around the Hub. Just as you'd approach the darshan shades, you were led through a metal detector tent. As soon as you were through there, bang! there was Mj sitting there with the same bored expression as in his EPO home page pic. Have to say I got more of a buzz from going through the metal detector machine than from kissing his socks. If anyone did faint afterwards, I would think it would have been from the heat. And no, no prasad sweets.... You would have to go buy your own cherry bar at the Hub. And of course, as always, just before you went through the metal detector tent, there were collecting bins for your *offerings* and *love & thank you* messages (2 different bins; the latter probably ending up in the recycling trash).

Subject: Crispy, could you email me? From: Marianne To: Crispy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:26:06 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Thanks.

Subject: Re: Crispy, could you email me? From: Crispy To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:57:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gladly, Marianne - I just sent you a reply. Crispy

Subject: Darshan today. From: Kelly To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 14:52:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Darshan today. second attempt From: Kelly To: Kelly Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 15:12:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know what happenned there, but I obviously hit the wrong key. Just to say, that the last time I did it (i.e. darshan) was India 1998. The new way, which we were coached in by Sampuranand, involves approaching M with your hands either clasped in front of you or in the prayer (Namaste) position, and as you reach M to gently touch or stroke his feet while bowing in front of him. Having said that, in Amaroo 1997, foot kissing was still the order of the day. Contribution boxes were very prominent in Indian darshan lines. Great big letter box type things. Western premies never contributed and also never noticed, I don't think. Indian premies were also given a little package afterwards... Me too because I asked for it! I have one in my hands as we speak, containing prasad. A sealed cellophane bag containing.. A small packet of sugar, a plastic bottle of water (charanamrit) and a little package of the red powder...all from the lotus feet of course. Any bids?? I'll send you a photo. Kelly

Subject: How generous of Prem Pal... From: Cynthia To: Kelly Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 11:11:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A packet of sugar, a plastic bottle of juju water, and a little package of red powder. Is there anything else to say? Grrrrrrrrr.....~)

Subject: Re: Darshan today. second attempt From: Bolly Shri To: Kelly Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 07:43:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sounds divine. I'm green with envy. What is the red powder?

Subject: Re: Darshan today. second attempt From: Livia To: Kelly Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 17:00:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Kelly, hope all's well. Just out of curiousity, what on earth's the red powder? I've never heard of that before. Speak to you soon Lots of love, Liv

Subject: The red powder and the third eye. From: Kelly To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 17:50:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just can't remember the name for this stuff, you know the red mark, dot, tilak?? between the eyebrows...that stuff. Of course, if it has been touched by the holy lotus feet it is superpowered and no longer just a symbolic representation of the light which can be seen within...etc ...etc... it has the power to open your third eye so when you meditate you can see the most perfect picture of his face.....I can let you have it cheap...never been used... mint condition..very reasonable price.. Will talk to you soon, you seem to be doing very OK...inspired even! Kelly

Subject: Re: The red powder and the third eye. From: Bolly Shri To: Kelly Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 07:47:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To make it fair Kelly I think you should have a proper auction. Wow like oh! like I could just put this stuff on my chops and there is the lard in full technicolour. I'm sending you my life savings and some Sainsburys air miles to open the bidding Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Darshan today. second attempt From: AV To: Kelly Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 15:16:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So it's not a hindu trip,then

Subject: Hindu trip? Darshan? From: Kelly To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 15:24:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV, No it's certainly not a Hindu trip, it's about paying your respects and expressing gratitude. At least, that's what my Guru said!! What does yours say? Kelly

Subject: to Kelly From: AV To: Kelly Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 16:50:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In some cultures, people express their thanks and gratitude for the feast by belching vociferously.......what pictures spring to your mind....??? queues of belching premies...well,it's cultural, at least! mmm

Subject: Are people still allowed to faint? From: PatC To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 03:34:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ten bucks says it's no longer cool to faint unless you have heat-stroke or a heart-attack. Foot-kissing's passe. Bowing is in. The envelopes have been replaced with credit card slips and the sweeties by apres-darshan cognacs at Daya's. For premies it's probably really neat, cool and maybe even precious. :p

Subject: Re: The envelopes From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 05:09:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please tell me your kidding, just a little joke , right? please ,this is NOT for real...

Subject: Re: The envelopes From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 13:21:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Envelopes for cash donations are now regarded as uncool. As for for whether or not someone stands next to lotus feet with a credit card machine - I was kidding. I'm sure the credit card transactions all take place before the event.

Subject: Re: Are people still allowed to faint? From: Bolly Shri To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 03:44:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Isn't it called prashad anymore?

Subject: Isn't it called prashad anymore? From: PatC To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 13:28:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In India - yes but ''prashad'' went out of fashion in the west at the same time as Rev Rawat re-invented himself as a cool Malibu dude instead of Balyouguesswhat of the Bolly shrieking sari brigade. I'm sure Pauline Premie still digs through Rawat's trashcan looking for prashad - well, it's all she gets to eat living in poverty in her car on Trancas Canyon as she does.

Subject: Who hired this speaker? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 17:57:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji's first Amaroo address is described on ELK today. As usual, he comes across like a fool. Here are just two little examples. At one point, he gets into this 'complication' bullshit. Like everything else he says, despite its complete vacuity, it's boring rehash of the last time he pretended to have something new to talk about: But he said we have always managed to complicate things. We add layers of complication to life – like weeding out winners and losers. He gave the example of golf – a simple idea of dropping a ball into a whole, but now made so complicated so that there can be a competition. So if all we did was drop balls into holes there'd be no game at all, of course. What is this guy? As stupid as CD and Mili? Really? The effort of being conscious, he went on: 'That's a real challenge., but that is your nature. How could it be any other way. I had to laugh at this mind-fuck. Hilarious, isn't it? The challenge is to be natural which, at the end of the day, is unavoidable anyway. Who doesn't wince when they see this crap?

Subject: I dont wince.. I feel ill ! [nt] From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 01:37:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: I dont wince.. I feel ill ! From: Bryn To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 05:33:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Who hired this speaker? From: Mili To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 18:47:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Boy, you beat me to this one. You guys follow Maharaji more closely than I do I swear.

Subject: Another for the raji-ism list From: New-Age Redneck To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 18:21:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, buddy, you are really quick on the draw. This one belongs in the rji-ism hall of fame: '...'That's a real challenge., but that is your nature. How could it be any other way....' If it's 'natural' it's a challenge? It's a 'challenge' to be 'natural?' Sounds like a 'competition' to me. Hey, isn't competition something that he decries in the sentence before this? 'How could it be any other way....' indeed, how could it? Reminds me of his little ditty about 'the sun going to sleep for the night.' Remember that one? How we are all supposed to be that adle-headed? Just like his, then, 2 year old son? If 'childlike' means 'moron,' then no.... don't care to join that club voluntarily, thank you.

Subject: I don't think you understood it From: Mili To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 18:54:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What he meant was that it is natural for us to be conscious, and to strive to be conscious. It's something all living beings do. Otherwise, something just gobbles you up in the gloom.

Subject: Speak for yourself From: New-Age Redneck To: Mili Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 10:27:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mili: I'm not 'gobbled' up by gloom. It's only those gooroo types that try to tell us we are.... Did you ever think of that? Additionally, I AM conscious (of the real world). If I wasn't, I'd be hospitalized as comatose. Conscious of 'what?' A fantasyland inside where all the pixi's dance and sing with the good gooroo holding back the beasts and goblins inside? I've read better fairytales to my daughter than the one the rawat tries, ineffectually, to weave.

Subject: Re: I don't think you understood it From: Bolly Shri To: Mili Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 03:55:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are you saying that M is telling people that being concious is a challenge? Does being concious involve being awake , alert and aware? If so being concious and a premie is a challenge. To be a premie involves switching off all the faculties that make you human, spontanaety, humour etc. Take alook at Livias posting about premies, so called adults telling crude jokes because the boss man does it. Concious of what are these guys? They have an inability to use thier own critical faculties to discriminate between apropriate and inapropriate behaviour.

Subject: Re: I don't think you understood it From: Mili To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 04:02:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, I think it's more like this - it's a challenege to be conscious, alert, aware. Because if you're not, you get gobbled up. You can see as many examples of that in the natural world as you want. Big fish eat little fish, eagle zooms in on groundhog, snake eats hamster, frog munches on grasshopper, stuff like that. It's really simple and obvious. Give it some thought, you might see what I mean.

Subject: And your nemesis is......... From: Tonette To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 10:45:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So the modern day threat is........that which will 'gobble you up' is, 'your mind' and to further quote the philosophy of M 'the world.' Funny that your mind, your ability to think and doubt, your brain, is the one thing that has evolved beyond the Great Apes and the mighty whale. It distinguishes you from our fellow life forms, as majestic as they are. 'Crown of Creation' and all that rot. Your mind, be sure to tune it out and the awful ugly world in which you live. Shut your eyes, plug your ears, jab your forehead, stretch your tongue, all gestures focus on your reptilian brain. Talk evolution, you follow the path of regression. Consciousness, alertness, awareness involve the higher aspects of using your brain. M however, shows you how to concentrate as if you are a reptile. Then again, I never knew an unhappy reptile. Maybe he has something here after all. So bigger fish eats little fish, lions eat antelope, turtles eat slugs and your point is? Humans kill each other? Humans prey on each other? Well, welcome to modern times. Killing is mostly illegal now but humans are still preying on each other and you, my fellow or madame, have a real big fat leach attached to you. Yes it is really, really simple. Employ some thought, take a look at what you have said, read a little bit on the subject. And embrace the enlightenment you were born with. Frankly, the bullshit ignorance you expound, is akin to a born again Christian stating that 'If you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior you're going to hell.' You are marking time and wasting you life because you embellish and were initiated into a CULT. Good Luck Follow that Grace! Tonette

Subject: To: MILI From: AV To: Mili Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 05:32:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Er.... According to Hindu philosophy, consciousness 'CHIT',is the substance upon which the creation is imprinted. However, the creation and all that dwells in it is therefore just a projection of the creator, and is therefore , in essence, a dream, illusion or 'MAYA'. To be able to percieve the true divine reality BEHIND the illusory veil of MAYA, is achieved not through the gymnastics of the intellect, but through direct perception, direct experience, by total immersion of the individual soul into cosmic consciousness. The experience of the pure and eternal uncreated reality is both supremely blissful, and the is immediately recognised as the ONE ENDURING UNCHANGING TRUTH. Hence JAI SAT CHIT ANAND: (lit.)Hail Truth - conciousness - bliss Conciousnes is dependant on the life force entering our body, we are all concious. The object of our conciousness is either MAYA, illusory reality, based on the transient and malleable, or SATCHITANAND, everpresent indestructable boundless joy. The role of the SATGURU , or master, is to awaken us from the former to the latter, and may or may not involve the use of golfballs.

Subject: Another perspective for Mili From: Crispy To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 11:34:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mili, thanks for sharing that. I also spent many premie years learning about and appreciating being conscious. However, there's just one misconception I overlooked. The illusion actually starts with thinking one needs Knowledge in order to be conscious. Since taking the daring move to test that one, I've delightfully found it to be not true at all. It was a delusional, short-visioned mistake to attribute something natural and universal as belonging under the domain of the world of Knowledge. all the best, Crispy

Subject: Re: Another perspective for Mili From: Mili To: Crispy Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 11:41:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Err, sorry, but I think you got that wrong, too. The way it works is, you have to be conscious in order to practice Knowledge, not the other way around. Just my experience - I am not trying to make you look stupid or anything like that.

Subject: Re: Another perspective From: Crispy To: Mili Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 12:07:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you have to be conscious in order to practice Knowledge... Well in that case, I guess I misread you, sorry. So that would take me back to something like I need to be alert, awake and aware in order to meditate. I'll agree with that - it was either spinning thoughts or sleepiness that I often grappled with in meditation. So what's new.....? Yawning Crispy

Subject: Re: Another perspective From: Mili To: Crispy Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 15:45:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right on, dude! Meditation is best when you are alert. Naturally alert. I like to meditate in the afternoons, or evenings before I go to bed, but the best ones that I've had were the early morning ones. It's really great to do it at daybreak. The mist lifting, birds singing, and the sun slowly coming up make a wondeful backdrop. It just seems like the natural thing to do. I've even purchased a small bit of land and a little wooden house so that I could do it unencubered by the cacophony and chaos of the city. I go there every weekend that I can. The real challenge is to be centered and carry the peace and stillness with you in the midst of the daily chaos. I am working on that.

Subject: Re: Another perspective From: bill To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 00:15:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi MILI, I am studying the ugly end of things these days, I find it revealing. Not sure I will be doing a good job talking about it tonight, Allow me to wing it briefly. You said 'The real challenge is to be centered and carry the peace and stillness with you in the midst of the daily chaos. I am working on that.' The area I am talking about is, WHAT IS that thing that provides the 'challenges' and why. That is a huge area and I think is worthy of discussion because it is a reality, no one can avoid it, it is damn smart and intent on doing its job, no one is able to triumph over it, at least not us, and it makes the newspapers read like they do. Labeling it MIND or something does not help us understand it, and ignoreing it and dismissing it or half understanding it is not in our favor, and coming to half baked conclusions about life is our fate if we dont get a clear picture of the problem maker. I think. Anyway, it is late, good night Mili.

Subject: Re: Another perspective From: Mili To: bill Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 03:06:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bill, You're talking about the problem of evil, right? I haven't figured that one out yet, but I've been doing some research on it just like you have. The best explanation that I've come up with so far is that evil comes from unconsciousness. Check out what Leibniz thought about it: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz-evil/ Mili

Subject: I was being facetious From: Crispy To: Mili Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 21:38:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I apologize for the flippancy of my second reply, but it's your 'blind spot' at 5:00 that I'm on about. Being conscious is another term that has been given so many double and triple meanings. I think your thread started with your understanding that Mj was talking about how it's natural to be conscious, yet we must strive to always be conscious. But when you think about it, when you start striving for something that comes naturally, the 'naturalness' of it instantly dissipates. In a way, it's an example of what's been termed a 'dissonant mental backflip'.

Subject: Re: Crispy / Mili From: AV To: Crispy Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 03:20:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Crispy, I agree with: .......when you start striving for something that comes naturally, the 'naturalness' of it instantly dissipates. ...... That's one of the areas I always found created so much tension and angst, when M used to state HOW SIMPLE, HOW NATURAL etc this experience is, and then then proceed on a tack that made you feel like you had to spend every waking hour, every last drop of blood to achieve it; sort of like, preaching food to the starving , but with attitude. If you can meditate Mili, and have a beneficial experience, there are few people who would deride that, certainly not me. I think the 'caveat' is not to drawn hard conclusions about the periphery of meanings attributed to knowledge. For example, you mentioned the challenge of bringing that peace into the hustle and bustle of every day life, yet you have a meditation retreat in a cabin that a lot of folk would die for! You are very fortuneate in that respect. But in my experience, (and I'm not saying this is general, it's personal)I have rarely witnessed knowledge coming into the world at large. Meditation is all about feeling and focus, agreed? We sit and using the techniques to focus us on a particular aspect of our internal landscape, we try to feel something there. And after a period of time, if you are lucky enough for your thought processes to slow down and your body not to start acheing, the experience we call 'knowledge' (self) starts to effuse into our conciousness. So returning to the world , if , say, something comes at you that would make you angry, if you are still in that nice warm cocoon of K, where does that anger go? Have you transcended it? or has is actually been repressed, stored in another compartment of your being , only to burst out in an un-natural manner another time? I really am talking from experience here, and could go on with many examples, but I think you get the picture. in the same way we have to FEEL K, we have to FEEL all else around us and act appropriately at the time. Stored up undealt with emotions are incredibly destructive energies to have lurking around, and for some people, trying to paste over a natural response to a situation because you are trying to keep your focus on the inner stillness can actually backfire. But if your practise can open up a well of love and clarity that you can greet humanity with, honestly, with no intent to be 'above' the next person, then I would say that is good. But it has to be real, faking it never did, nor ever will count out there.

Subject: Re: Crispy / Mili From: Mili To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 04:54:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, it has to be real. Knowledge has definitely made me feel good about life in general. And I agree with you, stuff shouldn't be repressed. However, awareness can be useful in that regard, too. If you're aware of your needs then you can do something about them. For me, meditation has been an anchor in a psychological sense. I don't see myself any different from the next guy in terms of anger, fear, guilt and stuff. But, focusing on the breath does provide calm and clarity in the midst of the turbulence of emotions and affects. I find it useful, at least. In the metaphysical sense, I've never seen it as a vehicle to strive for some 'higher' state of consciousness, or to achieve some state other than what I already am. Rather, I see it as a means to be aware of what already is. The depths of it are amazing.

Subject: You're brilliant, AV From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 04:23:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There were so many things that I enjoyed in your post. You said: ''....when you start striving for something that comes naturally, the 'naturalness' of it instantly dissipates. That's one of the areas I always found created so much tension and angst, when M used to state HOW SIMPLE, HOW NATURAL etc this experience is, and then then proceed on a tack that made you feel like you had to spend every waking hour, every last drop of blood to achieve it; sort of like, preaching food to the starving, but with attitude.'' Yes, that's the primitive superstitious religious nonsense of someone who consults an astrologer. It also happens to be good for business. Hold out the promise of eternal bliss but instil fear of failure. You: ''If you can meditate Mili, and have a beneficial experience, there are few people who would deride that, certainly not me. I think the 'caveat' is not to drawn hard conclusions about the periphery of meanings attributed to knowledge.'' Absolutely. In fact some people get nothing out of it which makes me think that it's so subjective that tugging their earlobes forty times a day might work better for some. The other funny thing is that, as soon as I gave up Rawat, I began to get ''that feeling'' (which I call ''feeling great'') spontaneously. Most of my ''not feeling fine'' had to do with his little religious mindfuck game. You again: ''So returning to the world, if, say, something comes at you that would make you angry, if you are still in that nice warm cocoon of K, where does that anger go? Have you transcended it? or has is actually been repressed, stored in another compartment of your being, only to burst out in an un-natural manner another time?'' Anger, frustration, irritability have to be dealt with in practical ways. Sure I can have a lot of fun looking at my ''internal landscape'' but I also know that it has no practical use other than to make me ''feel fine.'' It won't solve problems. It won't avoid difficulties. It certainly won't give you good health, more money or peace of mind. In fact meditation combined with Maharajism can cause mental problems. Mental problems have to be dealt with separately and specifically. But Rev Rawat has ignored not only his own mental problems but those of his students. While he has been rattling on with his nonsense for 30 years he has failed to notice that he and the premies do have some unfinished business. Rawat and his Knowledge definitely do not offer any practical, sane and sensible way to deal with living in this complex and beautiful world. Sadly, most of us who have only left recently know that many premies have very real mental problems that they are not addressing and even sadder - many of those mental problems would disappear if they ditched the Maharajism religion with it's carrot of bliss and stick of fear. Rev Rawat is just running another crazy religion.

Subject: Re: Crispy / Mili From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 04:07:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV, Well said. I was just posting something under Neville's post down below and come back to read this one of yours and find we are saying basically the same thing. I'm realising here that it isn't the meditation that's the problem (although I know a lot of exes would disagree!). It's the mindfuck around it that comes directly from Maharaji and causes so much confusion for premies, although they would claim that they're not confused, of course. It's the idea that if you're experincing anything other than 'that peace', whatever, you're in your mind. Yuck!!!! It's crazy. The problem with seeing life through knowledge-tinted glasses is that you end up at odds with yourself, having problems with experiencing genuine, clean emotions when emotional responses are actually sometimes appropriate. Maharaji stresses that it's all about inner contentment, but contentment is a state you need to earn, in my view, through wise living. And the practise of Knowledge doesn't in itself lead to wise living. You only have to look at the dissonant lives of so many premies to see that. 'By their fruits' etc. It's all rather sad. Love to you, AV Livia

Subject: ..and you're brilliant too, Livia From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 04:39:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''I'm realising here that it isn't the meditation that's the problem (although I know a lot of exes would disagree!). It's the mindfuck around it that comes directly from Maharaji and causes so much confusion for premies, although they would claim that they're not confused, of course.'' All this has to be said finally because any premies who are leaving the cult only now have stuck it out for so many years because they did get something out of meditation. Some of them aren't going to ditch 30 years of an investment. Others may never have liked it and only did it as part of the religion of Maharajism. Some people may dump it altogether. Well, I'm a creature of habit and enjoy my routines. I enjoy meditating and always have but I have made sure to do whatever it takes to ditch ''the mindfuck around it that comes directly from Maharaji.''

Subject: Re: I was being facetious From: Mili To: Crispy Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 02:57:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How about * it's natural to strive to be conscious *. That ring a bell? I mean, it's pretty obvious to me. And you can do something about it, don't tell me you can't. You can avoid stuff that makes you unconscious. In fact, consciousness seems almost to be a synonym for life. We all want to live, not die, right? We *strive* not to die. We avoid hazardous situations like hell. And consciousness definitely seems to be a big asset in the survival kit. Do you think it's not natural to strive to avoid pain, to avoid death? It's like when you're on the road, driving your car. You've got a better chance of getting to your destination if you're alert and paying attention to the road, than if you're dead drunk or something like that.

Subject: Re: to Mili again From: AV To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 06:23:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mili, Interesting ideas abound! The point is , we cannot avoid pain, avoid death, BEING 'CONCIOUS 'WILL NOT DO THAT FOR YOU!!!! (REPEAT MANY TIMES!!!!!!!). In fact, real peace and wisdom comes into your life when you realise that seeking some 'insurance policy' for protection against the inevitable is as absurd as a snake eating its own tail; you are devouring the very 'thing' that you are, if you accept that you are an 'infinite being residing in a human body;' what is there to insure against? And you can't always avoid hazardous situations, flying could be seen as hazardous, stress-bound jobs in the city can cause heart attacks. Whenever I have tried to meditate to overcome an anxiety, It has almost always made it worse, like putting it under a magnifying glass; add to that the premie fear of failure, and you have a serious syndrome on your hands. At that time you need another tool from the box, a realisation that your worst fears are in fact your only enemy, and that a trusting acceptance of the fortitude of your own endurance in the face of adversity will prevail, and that fear is actually very close to excitement, the promise of a new adventure into the unknown, something to be enjoyed. BTW, if you are alert and paying attention to the road, where is your conciousness, on your breath? the road? both? the guilt that you aren't focussed enough? the bliss that you are? I am not knocking you , Mili, really, I just shudder and twinge a bit at generalisations, esp.around M/K. Human nature is so, so complex, and we are all so very very different. And BTW, I don't strive not to die, I am mostly concerned with survival, keeping a roof over my head, and trying not to let my mind get any more f**ked up! Here's another thing, a lot of the time we actually strive to be unconcious, of our surroundings, the world, our feelings; thats why we drink, get lost in music, drive fast cars, even sex ; the french call the orgasm 'le petit mort'..(little death), I believe at times we may actually want oblivion, which is the catch 22 of meditation!! : is it conciousness and total awareness we are seeking? or oblivion, dissolution into the infinite, a sexless orgasm of the spirit? Food for thought, but only if you are into thinking, I guess! With Love.

Subject: To all of you..... From: Crispy To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 15:04:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks AV, PatC, Livia! Thanks for beautifully illustrating what I so miserably only sketched and unsubstantiatingly, barely touched on. AV, I really liked what you said with ''...in the same way we have to FEEL K, we have to FEEL all else around us and act appropriately at the time. ...trying to paste over a natural response to a situation because you are trying to keep your focus on the inner stillness can actually backfire.'' And: ''....Whenever I have tried to meditate to overcome an anxiety, it has almost always made it worse, like putting it under a magnifying glass; add to that the premie fear of failure, and you have a serious syndrome on your hands..'' PatC said ''... funny thing is that, as soon as I gave up Rawat, I began to get 'that feeling' (which I call 'feeling great') spontaneously....'' Livia, you added '...contentment is a state you need to earn through wise living. And the practise of K doesn't in itself lead to wise living.....'' Likewise; – I can't reassure Mili and other premies enough..... It was a very liberating discovery to make after leaving premiedom behind. My fear of losing touch with that feeling if I left Knowledge was a groundless fear. The feeling still remains with me, without Mj's guidance and my striving studious efforts to maintain any super-imposed standards around something that's just naturally there without any *devoir(s)* attached at all. Contrary to popular premie belief, the whole ‘strife' around it actually contaminates it. It's such a huge relief. Love to y'all, The ‘DudETTE' Crispy

Subject: Re: To all of you..... From: AV To: Crispy Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:11:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: MWAH!!!!! ;@)

Subject: Re: To all of you..... From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 07:13:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And a big 'MWAH!!!' back, AV; you're lovely. And PatC and Crispy too. I was thinking, I wish we all lived in San Franisco and we could mosey along to PatC's and Chuck's restaurant for a gargantuan meal. 'Twould be lovely, no? Lots of love and kisses to y'all Liv XXXX

Subject: More premie intellectualjism From: gerry To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 21:59:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What he meant was that it is natural for us to be conscious, and to strive to be conscious. OKayeee...we are conscious, yes. Do we have to strive to be conscious? Noooooo. It's something all living beings do. Well Mili buddy, do ants strive to be conscious? Do bacteria? Otherwise, something just gobbles you up in the gloom. So, if you don't strive to be conscious, then 'something gobbles you up in the gloom?' Do tell more, dear Mili, please this is getting exciting...

Subject: Re: More premie intellectualjism From: Mili To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 22:31:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's really simple, Gerry. Those lifeforms that aren't too good at being conscious get gobbled up by those that are. That's why you don't see them around anymore. Okay, that's only my theory, I concede that. But it does make sense to me and I am looking forward to working out the ramifications of it further.

Subject: 2 British tourists gobbled up.. From: Hal To: Mili Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 14:08:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's really simple, Gerry. Those lifeforms that aren't too good at being conscious get gobbled up by those that are. That's why you don't see them around anymore. Okay, that's only my theory, I concede that. But it does make sense to me and I am looking forward to working out the ramifications of it further. --- by crocodiles in Africa recently Mili. Obviously by your criteria of the most conscious gobbling up the least ? Well? You very rudely told me , as if you speak on behalf of all the premies there to get lost as no one wanted to speak to me. I was irrelevant I think you said. What are you doing on this forum? Do you feel welcome here . I wish you'd bugger off as you are IMO a fascist, brainwashed cult member with only an agenda of intimidation towards exes. Piss off back to that boring little forum . Life grates.

Subject: Re: 2 British tourists gobbled up.. From: Mili To: Hal Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 15:54:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Hal. I'm just paying a return visit from Jim, Gerry and Livia that's all. Won't bother you here for long, don't worry. I have better things to do. Yeah, I've heard about the two British tourists. Who hasn't? :) Again, they were the ones who slipped up in not being alert enough, and Mother Nature took its toll. The crocodiles do seem to be a hardy species. They've been around for much longer than we have, and if the climate doesn't change or the demand for fancy shoes and ladies purses doesn't go up, they probably will be here for a long time yet to come, too.

Subject: Re: 2 British tourists gobbled up.. From: Hal To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 15:55:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mili, I apologise . You are welcome, as you've just instigated and participated in one of the most interesting threads I've recently read. Thanks for your input and thanks to all the others. I find that threads which involve premies and exes often make for the most fascinating discussions both here and at LG. Come on face it Mili , wouldn't LG die without some ex input?

Subject: Re: More premie intellectualjism From: gerry To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 22:54:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now I get it, Mili. Those beings that are better at being conscious beings are being rewarded with other beings who are being served up as pate to the superior beings. Good theory. Get working out those ramifications!

Subject: there is FREEDOM milli From: silvia To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 20:45:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Otherwise, something just gobbles you up in the gloom.' Honestly milli, I don't do that, I dont live in a gloomy state ANYMORE. That in fact is a characteristic of being a premie, what the master transforms you in; a gloomy, needy, weak in many or all (?) areas person. Whar is wrong with being just a human being? Nobody is happy all the time.... (lol) and if u are, you are missing lots of other very good emotions. Flat, perhaps?

Subject: Re: there is FREEDOM milli From: Mili To: silvia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 22:34:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry Silvia, but I just don't know what you're talking about and how it could apply to me, honestly I don't. I am just as human as you are, with all the ups and downs and the emotions, and all the rest of it. And I get to practice Knowledge and listen to Maharaji as a bonus. Well, at least I see it as a bonus. You obviously don't.

Subject: Mili, The bonus... From: Mirror To: Mili Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 05:27:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you refer to, is getting your mind conditioned into thinking that you are actually benefitting from what you do; and the more years you have invested into this, the less willing your mind will be to lift the veil and undo itself from this conditioning. The benefits you experience did not become available to you as a result of practicing M's teaching, nor are they less available to anyone outside of M.'s cult. It would be a cruel world if this were so. Your belief in the origins of these benefits will remain firmly in place, for as long as you allow M. to tell you that these benefits are derived from listening, practice & participation, and you (consciously or unconsciously) allow yourself to believe him. It is fear from jumping into the unknown, and test the benefits of life as it already is, pure and simple, without any teacher or instructor, that keeps you in your comfortable dreamworld. The real bonus will not be yours for as long as you decide to dream on. The real bonus will be Rawat's, the moment he cashes in another one of your credit card debits. With love, Mirror

Subject: Re: Mili, The bonus... From: Mili To: Mirror Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 06:48:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee, thanks for the unsolicited advice o great, wise and compassionate soul. I am quite comfortable to stick to my 'dreamworld' for the time being, thank you.

Subject: I rather liked that Speah... From: Cynthia To: Mili Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 00:18:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NOT! Had any foot darshan lately? Mili, Mili, Mili, he's telling you not to bother having any balls because he's got them all and he's cheating by dropping them in the holes and the premies are running around picking up the balls all over the 18 hole course and bringing them back to him after kissing them (the balls). Maharaji's trickiness is still amazing to me. He wants premies to feel trapped in the belief of your need for him. He's telling you the only way to be conscious is to focus only on him. Then he gives you a slight or heavy dose of charismatic electricity in the 'line' and ZaP! you're good for another six months. You can think for yourself, Mili. This phrase of yours ''I get to practice Knowledge and listen to Maharaji as a bonus.'' is pure cult-speak, Mili. He's convinced you of your dire need of him when he gives you nothing. Like Pat Conlon has said ''He's selling bottles of air.'' I like that. Think about that, Mili...and enjoy the program. If you've kissed his feet recently you might as well be happy about it.

Subject: something just gobbles you up in gloom From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 04:02:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jeepers creepers! Where'd you get those peepers? :D Sorry Mili to join in the gangbang but you're a sitting duck. You said: ''What he meant was that it is natural for us to be conscious, and to strive to be conscious. It's something all living beings do.'' That really is good. It perfectly describes Rev Rawat's religion. Strive for something that comes naturally. He's selling bottled air as they say in the classics. You qualified that statement with what sounds like a bit of quasi-Darwinism: ''Those life forms that aren't too good at being conscious get gobbled up by those that are.'' That's good too. A real truism straight from the book of Maharajism on a par with ''the breath is precious.'' Then you said: ''Sorry Silvia, but I just don't know what you're talking about and how it could apply to me, honestly I don't.'' Well you said that ''something just gobbles you up in the gloom'' and Sylvia said that the ''gobbling glooms'' are something that she and many other ex-premies including me have testified disappear once you leave the Maharajism religion. The ''gloomy gobblers'' are a direct result of ''striving for something that comes naturally.'' It's a mindfuck, Mili.

Subject: Re: re: Hot air From: Jethro To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 04:55:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'He's selling bottled air as they say in the classics. ' Do remember being able to buy Beatle-breathe? When I lived in Jerusalem, there were people selling wood from the cross of Jesus's crucifixion. There are always more mugs.

Subject: There are always more mugs From: PatC To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 13:39:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, he sold mugs too with ''Remember to breath'' painted on them. :C)

Subject: Re: There are always more mugs From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 13:48:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: now.....that really had better be a joke.......;~)

Subject: ''Breathe'' mugs a joke? Nope! From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 13:54:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They cost twenty bucks a pop.

Subject: Re: ''Breathe'' mugs a joke? Nope! From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 15:00:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what next? 'Write' notepaper? 'Spend' banknotes?......no come on Pat, you ARE taking the piss?...please say yes, I don't mind, just for me, go on....crap, it's true isn't it....jeeeez

Subject: Pat: 'Breathe, you mugs!' surely? From: AV To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 15:08:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Please stop posting, AV :C) [nt] From: PatC - I have to go to work now To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 15:18:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: A quote from Mili about 'grace' From: jethro To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 15:58:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Now, you can read all sorts of metphysical stuff and fantasy into the word 'grace', but in a practical way, it is his grace that makes it possible because it just doesn't seem to work without doing it the way he says it should be done. ' Isn't this the real crux of the matter. Premies DO believe that Prem Rowatt IS the source of 'that experience'. Mili has almost admitted it in the above statement and I do congratulate him. If only more premies were more honest about this belief, maybe a real dialogue could take place here.

Subject: By his grace, magic, etc., etc.... From: Cynthia To: jethro Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 17:13:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am really starting to dispise the phrase ''knowledge working or not working'' take your pick. Knowledge doesn't work (whatever that means) without Maharaji or Prem Pal (is that like Pay Pal?) because he says it doesn't work without him. I think premies talk about his being the Lord Incarnate a lot more that we think, at least among themselves. I did. Even in the late 90s. So, now the Amarooo darshan is kicking in and Prem Pal is juju-ing the premies right out of their minds. That's what I think.

Subject: I feel the need for some really bad poetry :) (nt) From: New-Age Redneck To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 17:17:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: the maharagi.org site for a few seconds:):) [nt] From: Cynthia...Just go to To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 17:21:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I wrote a poem about trout fishing, once :) (nt) From: New-Age Red-ink To: Cynthia...Just go to Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 17:29:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Well, spill it out...I love trout [nt] From: Cynthia To: New-Age Red-ink Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 21:20:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I can't find it... I think it's From: New-Age Redneck To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 10:32:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: on my wife's computer. If it is, I'll replay that horrific dity for all to marvel.... It really is THAT bad! bleccchhhhh he he he

Subject: Bad Trout Poem........... From: Tonette To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 11:36:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah the lake, the river that runs so pure, so deep, Like the Knowledge my Master does sure do reap Lives a fish, so cold, so slimy, so deft That he evades the lure I surely do heft. With a heart so enamoured in ichthyology My master masquerades in the colors of the rainbow Seemingly beautiful but becoming peculiar When examined under the sun's true light The trout you see is so like I know, I know, really bad poem but hey..... Love, Tonette

Subject: I like rainbow trout... From: Cynthia To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and your poem. LOL! Made me really laugh. Love, Cynth

Subject: Stuffed with onion, garlic and lemon.+) [nt] From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 04:31:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: j

Subject: Re: about teachers From: CD To: jethro Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 16:47:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some people follow a teacher and get good results. Others follow the same teacher and don't. Who knows? And by the way this does not just apply to M as a teacher and his students. Also, if anybody will read 'Think and Grow Rich', they will find many unusual ideas that many people have prospered from and others have found to be without merit. So it goes ... Maybe the unusual is what makes life interesting! CD

Subject: A prime example of why you're such an idiot, CD From: Jim To: CD Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 16:53:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some people follow a teacher and get good results. Others follow the same teacher and don't. Who knows? And by the way this does not just apply to M as a teacher and his students. Also, if anybody will read 'Think and Grow Rich', they will find many unusual ideas that many people have prospered from and others have found to be without merit. So it goes ... Maybe the unusual is what makes life interesting! CD --- Only a simpleton or someone pretending to be one -- take your pick! -- would reduce the question of 'grace' to whether or not a 'teacher' got 'good results' with certain people. You're either playing games or really do suffer from some mental defect. Which is it?

Subject: yes, we disagree From: CD To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 23:15:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: >Which is it? We do have our differing opinions. I will stand by what I wrote and your reply as a prime example of our different viewpoints. You want to rant in public about your opinion of me, fine. My opinion is that you are not as smart as you think. You seem to think that you alone have figured out what true logic is. Ha! I bet you like Napolean Hill - g. Oh, you don't - g. But, those 'Guru Papers', they really have the answers - g. CD

Subject: Who, grace hopper? From: New-Age Redneck To: jethro Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 16:43:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Only kidding.... Two questions I would have for Mili: (1) What does 'work' mean, in this context? Does that mean liberation/enlightenment? If so, then it doesn't 'work' no matter whose rules you follow or which way you do it. (2) What does 'way it should be done' mean? Given that Ratwat has changed the rules more often than most people change their underwear.

Subject: kma is back however... From: blush To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 06:27:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can it be stored elsewhere so I don't get busted?

Subject: Who art thou Oh shy and retiring one? From: Gerry To: blush Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 11:08:11 (EDT) Email Address: gkl1@techline.com Message: Yes, I'll park it somewhere else and thank you!

Subject: Know anything about Charles Cameron? From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 02:12:20 (EDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: Author of 'Who is Guru Maharaji Ji'? Is he an ex? Where does he live (don't post his address here!!!)? That sort of thing. Many thanks. John.

Subject: Re: Know anything about Charles Cameron? From: Bodhi To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 18:01:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I saw him at the event, wearing a pith helmet.

Subject: I called him when I lived in L.A. From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 19:08:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can't remember how it happened but someone I knew knew Charles and suggested I give him a call in the late eighties just to kind of sound him out on Maharaji. I did and spoke with him for a while once. He just danced in and around everything. Quite pompous actually, now that I think of it. Obviously, he didn't know what to think himself then but far be it from Mr. Bullshit Medicore Poet to have the decency to simply say so.

Subject: Re: Know anything about Charles Cameron? From: Dep To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 11:00:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Author of 'Who is Guru Maharaji Ji'? Is he an ex? Where does he live (don't post his address here!!!)? That sort of thing. Many thanks. John. --- He is an ex. See 'Where are they now' on Roger's House of Maharaji Drek.

Subject: Many thanks, Loaf and Dep [nt] From: JHB To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 12:50:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: here is his homepage biog From: Loaf To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 04:38:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/ChasCBio.html

Subject: I'd like to meet him... From: gerry To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 11:21:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He looks like a fun guy and at ease with himself and his life. Funny, when he writes about his life work in his bio blurb, there's not a mention of the Filament of Malibu, unless I missed something. Of course, that's only natural. Who wants to trumpet their bad judgement? I would bet he's thoroughly embarrassed and ashamed of ever having promoted that greasy little con man, Pimple Rawrat.

Subject: I'd like to gob on him... From: PatD To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 18:52:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..one who walked away having shouted the loudest. But there you go. One size doesn't fit all.

Subject: Update From: Amaroo Crew To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 00:02:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: M spoke at the amphitheatre yesterday and said......... the same thing as always 'There is something beautiful within' but with new analogies and jokes. We had an event this morning starting at 8.30. It was just like India with hundreds of people working through the early morning mist. Darshan was next and once again showed just how much some people value Knowledge and the one who showed them. The weather's hot, the food's much better than last year and every thing's running very smoothly. AC

Subject: Maybe he'll From: Dermot To: Amaroo Crew Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 00:41:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: show you his tits, if you're lucky :)

Subject: Culpability - me ? From: blondie the troll To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 17:53:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, This is my first posting here, its rather long and probably expresses views which may irritate regular posters, in the face of such presumption I will not complain about the nature of any responses. Really what follows is a set of questions that concern me, which I am asking out loud and more in the form of statements than questions; still I would like to see others' 'answers'. The last set of responses to CPG was certainly interesting, the one from Cynthia dealt with the Jagdeo/abuse issue and it seems to me this raises a profound problem. I have no wish to minimise the pain experienced by any human, whatever the agency of that pain BUT the approach requested by Cynthia 'that all abuse is to be treated as being of the same singular awfulness', leads to the impossibility of understanding or getting to grips with any abuse - it is all 'too awful'. I think this is especially relevant because the general sense of the accusations against M (PR) is that he has abused, his power, position and his wealth and therefore is an abuser of people. The effect of the 'all abuse is the same' - 'its all too awful' equation allows those who may share responsibility in an abusive situation to escape attention, especially the attention of self criticism. This process is starkly demonstrated when children cause terrible harm to other children and is particularly pernicious under UK and US laws, where children charged with violent crimes are treated by the justice systems of both countries as though they were adults. In the US, minors who commit murder can be executed, although sentence is delayed until they reach adulthood (sick or what ?). In the UK until recently, children who committed murder or manslaughter could be tried as adults - a fate that happened nine years ago to two ten year old boys. In this case not only did the failure of the adult world to protect a toddler (the boys victim) but the adult world failed to protect two abused boys from their own violent instincts and then exposed them to the full hatred of a hostile society via a public trial. This whole process saw two messed up little kids 'take the rap' for the failures of a whole society and the neglect of numerous adult individuals who were in a position to protect both the boys and their victim. For me this has ramifications which affect how I see the judgements that can be made about M (PR). A feature about DLM in its early days was the huge number of very young aspirants for K; I am sure that there was no other - at least in the UK - meditational, consciousness raising etc. organisation [cult if you like] which attracted so many 15, 16 and 17 year olds. Taken from a purely sociological perspective this age specific membership had to be connected to M's own age at the time; and here is my greatest quandary. What was my responsibility of care as a then 16 year old to a then 14 year old ? In the 30 years since I received K, the position of children in British society has changed. A vital piece of legislation, succinctly called The Children's Act was passed by Parliament some 15 years ago, together with the adoption of the European Convention of Human Rights into British Law, children now have a raft of protective legislation. Any child, even a foreign national, spending time in Britain, is covered by that protective legislation. There is no way that anyone could be treated as M was in the period 1970 -74 without British law being invoked. Everything from the requirement to provide education to the limiting of time in 'public performance' would today prevent a 14 year old being used as M was in the promotion of DLM. That M, legally as a minor - a child, was placed in an extreme and abusive situation, seems to me to be unequivocal, unless that is he really was imbued with some profound spiritual strength which took him beyond the normal consciousness of an adolescent. If it is contended that he was simply an ordinary kid in an extraordinary situation then all of us who participated in the creation of DLM or the cult or the myths that accrued to M, are contributors to the abuse of Prem Rawat. After all, who is less responsible, me for offering my devotion or M for asking for. If DLM and all that followed from it was something bad, then the guilt can not just be put onto Prem Rawat, nor onto Glen, or Milky or Saph; every premie who gave up their personal responsibility and laid it all on a 14 year old kid, has something to answer for.

Subject: Re: Culpability way beyond that From: janet To: blondie the troll Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 07:18:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We have spoken here on the forum in the past of maharaji having grown up in a bizarre environment and how he is as much a victim as we who have been his followers are. You can't be born into a situation where you have thousands of people bowing and scraping, hovering and worshiping your every move, and grow up ordinary. You can't be thrust into the spotlight and pushed out in front of millions of sobbing worshippers at the age of 8 with your father dead, and be ordinary. You can get every whim you have satisfied by sycophantis who regard you as God incarnate, and still grow up with the kind of innence, humility and willingness to learn typical of a child. You're way beyond spoiled at that point. You become a monster. And a male child with no father to rebuke him, teach him, model to him, deiscipline him, and communicate to him what being a man is about, is going to grow into incredible arrogance, cruelty,greed, the very worst of human male nature unmodified. But we were told what to think of him, by he himself. and he was told to think that by others who soaked him in it from birth. So the abuse goes back to before him. I didn't have any notions of 'finding the perfect master' before I encountered Premies. I was sold the idea by traveling shills who presented it to me as a package: they had the product already, but they had to create an artificial need within me before I would buy the belief that I needed something and that they had what I needed. I blame him for posing to me. I also blame those who made such a monster of him. But if we, here can free ourselves from the victimization, now that we are grown adults and have seen quite a bit of life, then he is not exempt from the expectations of age and maturity either. He can recognize that he was used, abused, and was the victim of an unnatural upbringing, and he, too can choose to exit the cult and firmly decide to learn what an ordinary, unspecial, unworshipped, un supported, everyday life is. So I grant you that another maharaji could not happen under today's laws, and thta what he lived thru was a form of abuse to subject a young teenager to, but i will not back off from my stance that if we were abused and recognized it, and pulled ourselves out to recapture normal lives, then he is capable of the same. the difference between us and him is that he doesn't want to. And he is past old enough to wake up and realize that he was used and abused. And is still using and abusing the people he conned years ago. Shri Hans and Mata Ji are both dead. There's nothing he or we can do about that. They inculcated the beliefs into him. But there's plenty he can do to end the habits and discover how to have a healthy, normal life, neither abusing others nor permitting oneself to be used or abused. Until he does so, I will not accept the stipulation that all of us carry the blame equally, because some of us have thrown off the burden placed upon us. Some of us have gone back and made amends for our bizarrely abusive behavior while thinking we were doing good, according to the cult. He has not. He is still living in a world of use and abuse--by him on others, and as long as he will not let go of it, of him by others.

Subject: The Emperor has no Clothes From: Lesley To: blondie the troll Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 17:31:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I first discovered epo, I read something written by AJW in which he likened the 'Maharaji' story to the children's story about the Emperor with no Clothes. It had an impact on me, he was right. As I went about the process of claiming responsibility for myself, the first thing I did was publically renounce my belief in Maharaji. I consider that in doing that, I ripped the little piece of clothing that I was placing on his, er, story, offa him. The second thing was that I persisted in looking at the whole thing, including how my belief in Maharaji had impacted on other people, such as family and friends, and doing what I could to make good. You can't change the past, but you can cop to it. And there, I reckon, my responsibility for the charade stops. I do not take responsibility for being already primed to accept a saviour, I do not take responsibility for being so credible. The first is a problem the whole species has, and, imo, is nothing more than an emotionally based difficulty we have in processing our early childhood beliefs, when there was indeed a saviour, our parents. The second is just the way we are, that's how we learn to stick the peas in our mouth not our ear. You ask 'Who is less responsible, me for offering my devotion or M for asking for it'. What about asking yourself 'Have I ever demanded people's devotion, have I ever told people that their happiness is dependent on their devotion to me, did I then confound their attempts to sort out the truth of the matter, did I sit in a chair and let people pay for the priviledge of kissing my feet?' Well, as a child I remember playing the game where you stand on the highest available object and chant 'I'm the King of the Castle, get down you Dirty Rascal'. Didn't really like that game then, and I don't like it now. All Rawat had to do was honestly confess his doubts about his 'divinity' when he had them. But he continues to play his flirty dirty game to this day, that sucks.

Subject: Children Act, get realRe: Culpability - me ? From: Bolly Shri To: blondie the troll Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 17:27:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Blondie love, you are living in a fools paradise. In England we have the children act and the human rights act and the go to bed with a story and a glass of hot milk act and asenior member of Her Majestys Govt. will come round to your house and supervise prayers. We have these laws because lots of vulnerable people are abused by those they depend on for survival. To compare the DLM early 70s circus to say the death of Victoria Clambie or any other child starved and beaten to death is ridiculous. I have as a parent , felt that how m was marketed in the early days was slightly sick. BUT the pampering of an Indian Princling was not the sort of incident that led to a review of our child care laws. This came about on a tide of cases of gross neglect and a recognition that existing law left victims with no access to justice. Your guru is not a child now and is able by status of education and wealth to make an informed apraisal of his behaviour and decide whether or not his actions are honoable or even honest.

Subject: Bolly Shri and Leslie, thanks... [nt] From: Cynthia...Loved your answers To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 18:27:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: My response to Blondie... From: Cynthia To: blondie the troll Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 12:45:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Blondie, why do you call yourself a troll? I want to respond to your post mainly because you mentioned my name. You did raise some interesting points but I think you mixed up the issues about abuse. You said: The last set of responses to CPG was certainly interesting, the one from Cynthia dealt with the Jagdeo abuse issue and it seems to me this raises a profound problem. I have no wish to minimise the pain experienced by any human, whatever the agency of that pain BUT the approach requested by Cynthia 'that all abuse is to be treated as being of the same singular awfulness', leads to the impossibility of understanding or getting to grips with any abuse - it is all 'too awful'. I think this is especially relevant because the general sense of the accusations against M (PR) is that he has abused, his power, position and his wealth and therefore is an abuser of people. I was referring to all child abuse but child sexual abuse in particular. My beef is that too often those without proper information about child sexual abuse think a genital rape must occur to validate that a crime is sexual abuse. I understand all too well that a genital rape by a grown man of a 7 year old little girl causes much more physical and emotional suffering than fondling, however; my point was to again emphasize that all child sexual abuse is hurtful, bad, and criminal. I believe that anyone who neglects their child by withholding food and basic sustenance and especially emotional love (parental bonding in infancy and early childhood) and personal support is abusing a child. Verbal and emotional abuse is rampant in our society because some ignorant people don't consider (their) children humans but possessions. Any hitting, spanking, etc. is wrong. Many parents think spanking is okay, I don't. Violence begets violence. I think by hitting a child the parent is out of control not the child and I know there are parenting skills which can be learned and used to avoid ever hitting a kid. You think premies abused little Sant Ji but IMO you have it mixed up. If anyone abused little Sant Ji, it was his family starting with his father, mother, brothers, and all those around him in India before he got to the west. I wasn't there so I don't know. Maharaji has spoken in public about bricks flying and a lot of fighting within his childhood home. He has spoken about hiding in corners to avoid the fighting. Not being there to see it I can't comment. Sounds like abuse to me. His parents placed the child Maharaji into a position of great power as Lord of the Universe and that itself is abuse, IMO. That doesn't let Maharaji off the hook, however. Premies could not have abused Maharaji just because he was under-aged when he came to the west. Maharaji was made the leader of a cult, a long-standing family business. If that action in and of itself was abuse, again--the abusers were the adults closest to him--his family. It appears from so many reports by ex-premies that Maharaji was quite the abuser himself at an early age. He humiliated people because he was conditioned to be the 'Godhead' of the entire universe. Narcissism begins in early childhood and Prem Pal, now in his 40s continues to behave as he did from the day he stepped onto western soil-worse actually because he is all grown up with resources (lots of money) to help himself now if he indeed feels abused. I see him now as a privileged brat unable to acknowledge anything he has ever done wrong. Try to ask him about the Jagdeo issues personally...I doubt he would respond. I don't believe any premie abused him because we truly believed Maharaji was the Lord Incarnate, all powerful, and could read our minds. Once I was programmed or brainwashed into the cult I gave up my capacity to see anything but Maharaji as Lord. My goal in life became to please his every wish and obey his every agya. He never appeared to be a child or teenager--quite the opposite. He appeared to be in complete control of everyone around him who would adore him and give him money and things upon demand. It's absurd to say that those who worshiped and adored him abused him. Maharaji was doted upon constantly, deferred to always. As he grew into a teen, then to an adult it is obvious he has become a fully blown power freak. I only take responsibility for saying ''yes, I'll go to that thing called satsang to check it out.'' It didn't take long for me to sign on to the cult-think, i.e. become programmed or brainwashed. Once I reached the point of ''knowing Maharaji to be my lord'' I gave up my freedom of thought, which was required by Maharaji as LOTU or Perfect Master in order to be connected to him 'within inside.' I was programmed and all logic and free thinking flew out the window. Premies didn't abuse Maharaji by worshipping him. He received the treatment he required of premies which was obedience and worship. He may have been placed into his role early on but not by premies in the UK or anywhere else in the west. How does a brainwashed cult member abuse the leader of the cult? Age doesn't matter. Jim Jones was preaching to his 'playmates' at a very early age and also killing small animals in his boyhood barn for special affects. This caused those children to fear him and revere him at the same time. As Jones grew older he used the same tactics of fear and his need for adoration to control the People's Temple members. Do I think those boyhood friends of Jim Jones were abusing Jones? Absolutely not. Did Jones' followers abuse him when he was a young adult? Absolutely not. Maharaji's brand of abuse is quite similar to Jim Jones'. Look what Jones did. Maharaji consistently has used his power position to instill fear and damnation of those who would ever leave him. Now that he's adult he's attacked those of us who reject him by using his premies to attack us. Maharaji's position of power makes him complicit in covering up the abuse inflicted by Jagdeo. Jagdeo was an agent of Maharaji and DLM and was placed into another position of power by Maharaji. Jagdeo abused that power by hurting children often and badly. Maharaji owes those now grown children money (and lots of it) for refusing to act to protect the children of his premies. I protected my mother and younger sisters when I was as young as 14, and I'm no perfect master. I also didn't anyone to help me, including the police. I didn't even have the ability to drive. It was I who always fought back against my abuser to protect those more vulnerable than me. I have never heard or seen Maharaji doing that. Now that Maharaji has everything on earth a person could possibly want it's time for him to fess up, pay up, and stop covering up. Sincerely, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA

Subject: ****BEST OF FORUM**** (Cynthia) [nt] From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 18:50:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: perfect!!!!! nt From: silvia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 15:26:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: aha

Subject: Your response to Blondie is perfect [nt] From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 14:00:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Good first post, blondie. One question though: From: cq To: blondie the troll Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 12:40:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good first post, blondie. One question though: where does the buck stop then? With Shri Hans?

Subject: No- culpability Him From: Marianne To: blondie the troll Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:02:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Blondie: Well, when you posted your question you it would be controversial. Your analogy of M to juveniles who are executed in the US is right up my alley. I defend people on death row and am uniquely qualified to respond to your analogy. Please read the Best of Forum. There's a post there which responds directly to this issue called Compassion or Condemnation. There is no comparison between juveniles on death row and Captain Rawat. The juveniles who end up on death row were horribly abused, physically, emotionally and perhaps sexually. They had no way out of those lives. Rawat has lived a life of luxury since he was a child. He has had every asset imaginable available to him to sort out whatever happened to him in his family. Instead of doing so, he has abused others, turned a blind eye to the sexual abuse of children within his cult, and chosen to deny compensation to those children because it would reduce his own wealth. He has nothing in common with juveniles on death row in the US. No, the time came years ago for him to take responsibility for his own actions, and those under his employ. He and those around him are the ones responsible. Marianne

Subject: Marianne - Juveniles on death row From: Dep =) To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 11:16:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marianne, I agree. I’m sure that many of the people that end up on death row have had a difficult past. My question is, do you think that we can rise above our past or do think that humans are just like stimulus -response billiard balls completely tied to the past? Everything that happens to us is recorded in our minds and these recordings filter our present experience. They do it irrationally too. Does the name Pavlov ring a bell? I mean, what does ringing a bell have to do with salivating? My point is, don’t you think that Mr. Rawat, the Maharishi, people like Bo Lozoff and even lesser local meditation and yoga teachers are doing a valuable service by helping people to transcend their 'story' about it all. Don't you think that meditation is valuable in that it allows people to put their past into the past, and experience silence, if only for a few minutes a day. IMO the whole purpose of mediation is to improve our lives by temporarily shutting up the 'drunken monkey,' so we can see how it really is, that is, unfiltered by our past recordings. Don’t you feel that the world would be a much nicer place if people could regularly extricate themselves from their mental conditioning? You regularly make nasty comments about PR, but how do you feel about meditation and meditation teachers in general? =)

Subject: World a nicer place From: AV To: Dep =) Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 14:01:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don’t you feel that the world would be a much nicer place if people could regularly extricate themselves from their mental conditioning? BUT DOES MEDITATION DO THAT? SOME EVIDENCE COLLECTED FROM MANY SOURCES WOULD BE NICE,OR DOES MEDITATION AS A ROUTINE WITH ALL IT'S EXPECTATIONS JUST BECOME PART OF THE CONDITIONING, EVEN IF THE RESULTS ARE PEACEFUL (IF YOU GET LUCKY)

Subject: Well said, Marianne. Thanks tons. [nt] From: PatC To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 04:54:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Culpability - me ? From: kg To: blondie the troll Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 00:56:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't believe you are being insincere as Pat C might suggest. It's useful to look at other angles. I want to reiterate something I posted further down 're. Benevolence'. It's time to be responsible and for me that means blowing the whistle on the lie. I was one year older than M. I made what I thought to be a conscious decision. My responsibility. I wanted what he promised, regardless of the strings attached. Does age have anything to do with it? I learn to be a parent as my children learn to be the child of that parent. Children, bless them, can be very powerful beings. To be honest I no more know how to be a responsible parent than they know how to be a responsible child, I just know how to try. However, I do not let my children or myself get away with not taking on responsibility for not learning, changing and growing, acknowledging errors and apologising for playing mind games. We all make mistakes but I don't believe that children or adults may turn the other cheek. As a seven year old I knew where my responsibilities lay in being open to learn and be honest. It doesn't always seem as though it's in your power to exercise that responsibility but M. as a youngster was very aware of his domain of influence. He knew what he was talking about. It has nothing to do with age.

Subject: Maybe you're right, kg From: PatC To: kg Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 01:14:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After I read your post (and others below) I thought about it and perhaps you are right and blondie is being sincere.

Subject: to Blondie From: AV To: blondie the troll Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 22:09:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's an interesting viewpoint: just to clarify, are you saying that M as a minor was being used as a puppet figurehead for the organisation then known as DLM, and therefore all those involved in the advancement of the goals of the organisation are somehow complicit and what came hence? here are a few semi-rhetorical questions to consider: 1. was M's 'peace bomb' satsang scripted by his elders, or were those words of his own inspiration, and those who were inspired to act subsequently to establish his mission following what they believed to be direct command from the superior power in person? 2. Do you feel that M's position as a minor was , if you like, acceptable as he was under the guardianship of his mother, who I believe was head of the mission at that time, and his elder brother. For want of a better word, a family endeavour? The sentiment at the time was that each member of the family represented a particular aspect of the 'divine being', with M as the figurehead because he had been the one to whome his father had passed on the mantle of responsibilty to succeed him as satguru. M overthrew this structure when he married Marolyn, and sent the rest of his family (with the exception of Raja ji) packing, and I think many would endorse the view that he, having made that step, had assumed the entire mantle of power and responsibilty for the whole organisation and it's intended operation in the west. In response to your last statement: 'the guilt can not just be put onto Prem Rawat, nor onto Glen, or Milky or Saph; every premie who gave up their personal responsibility and laid it all on a 14 year old kid, has something to answer for'. Do you recall; 'Come to me and I will give you peace, surrender the reins of your life to me and I will give you salvation...' As far as anybody coming to K then was concerned (70-74), M was not a kid, he was the Lord, and you had better give up your responsibility, otherwise you wouldn't get peace...M had told you that. After 74, he was married, an adult, and soon had children of his own. I'm sorry if I appear to be obtuse on this, but '74 on , surely M was an adult in charge of adults doing adult things. Before then (and I confess I am ignorant of precise legalities) I assumed he was under the guardianship of his own family who spoke as one voice. I know posting here for the first time is very difficult, I've been really nervous myself; it can feel like speaking the unspeakable; which ever way you slice it, there is something here that needs to be resolved that doesn't stand up to being swept to one side; there are issues here that affect our 'collective internal and unwritten sense of what is wholesome and human'....no one here is 'preaching their own trip' for self gratification, many are angry beyond comprehension, others have had their hearts and minds brought to the edge. I hope and pray that these uncomfortable feelings you , I and others have felt will find their salve in time.

Subject: Re: Culpability - me ? From: PatC To: blondie the troll Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 18:56:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's your point? Sure we were all complicit in OUR own involvment but you seem to be obliquely suggesting that we were also a bunch of child-molesters because we ''used'' little Pimple Rawat when he was barely out of diapers. That's nonsense. Also the ''tone of voice'' of your post doesn't ring sincere - it's sounds phoney like a little mind-game. In fact it sounds totally abstract and theoretical. Is this supposed to be helpful to someone? Who?

Subject: Re: Culpability - me ? From: Bolly Shri To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 15:06:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC, are you implying Blondie is a sibling of CPG? Do CPG and Blondie attend the same brainstorming PR sessions?

Subject: I don't know Bolly From: PatC To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 16:23:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was my first impression - but then I have an allergy to waffles and baloney. :C)

Subject: Re: Culpability - me ? From: Neville To: blondie the troll Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 18:45:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Agreed. As a premie I was lied to; but I willingly abandonned my critical faculties and accepted these lies. I now recognise that there were ulterior motives in this acceptance. Then having accepted things I knew better than to believe, I compounded my error by attempting to persuade others of this viewpoint. I can't speak for other people, but I recognise my culpability. M may have spun a bunch of lies--for his own ulterior motives--but I was a willing participant. Neville

Subject: Re: Culpability - me ? From: Cynthia To: blondie the troll Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 18:16:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have a guest at the moment but I intend to respond to your post soon. Regards, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA

Subject: Let her Rip, Cynthia... From: Bai Ji To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 18:45:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was livid when i saw this. You have got to be fucking joking!!!! I shall await your informed and appropriate response with antici........pation.

Subject: Re: Let her Rip, Cynthia... From: Cynthia To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 19:03:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bai Ji, How are you? I've been very remiss in my email correspondence. As I said, I've got a guest right now. Right now my hubby and his friend are dancing to the Stone's 'Sympathy for the Devil' in my living room (Tom and co-workers and boss took off the day to go canoeing in the Mad River today, so they are three-sheet to the wind) and it's only 7:00pm EST! I want to respond, or say I won't be responding, when I am in a more sober state of mind. Be well, email me sometime and tell me how you are... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Swing that Arti tray Cynth... From: Bai Ji To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 19:08:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and have a few brews for me. How am I? See my response to gerry down below 'Hi Gerry, Thank you Sir' I'm hanging in there. Lots of Love Bai Ji XXX

Subject: Re: Swing that Arti tray Cynth... From: Cynthia To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 21:31:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, I didn't swing any Arti trays. Not last night. I did sleep through an earthquake. I guess my insomnia is over for now (PHEW)! I've always had bouts--this one was long. Hang in there, especially this weekend because of Amaroo. I used to have weird feelings when Prem Rawat had programs nearby during the time I started questioning him. Also right after I exited and fully rejected him. Normal reaction. Read those books and you'll be taken to the wonderful place inside --- your mind! I'd love to see Australia but I wouldn't want to be with him. Not anymore. Love and a big hug, Cynthia

Subject: THE STARS From: AV To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 14:12:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Any o' you new age scientists out there got any info, perspectives on the massive planetary alignment happening this weekend; and if so, is Ameroo a coincidence, or does M plan his events with the aid of an astrologer? Very curious on this one, anybody ???

Subject: Re: THE STARS From: John Macgregor To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 08:07:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: M has an astrologer in India. In 1997 he got the manager of Amaroo to phone the astrologer up, and ask him for an auspicious time to officially open Amaroo's new Knowledge Hall. This was duly done. Those of us who had contributed to the building of the hall (marginally in my case) had a daytime gathering with M on the steps, where repartee was exchanged between M (at the top of the steps) and the rest of us (arrayed below). E.g. Maharaji told us not to throw our beer cans all over the site, to which the awestruck ones below roared with prolonged laughter. None of us were allowed in the building - tho we gathered on the steps for a group shot with M. Monica (the official photographer) captured the moment, and we all subsequently bought copies of the photo. That evening (I think it was the same day - very close anyway), at about 8.30 in the evening, the hall was officially opened by M, with a very small group of PAMs - maybe half a dozen. (Not being a PAM, I wasn't there.) I heard he cut a ribbon - tho can't confirm that part. Anyway, this was the time dictated by the Indian astrologer. Whatever you think of M and K, the hall is one of the most beautiful small halls in the world, IMO, thanks to the design skills of the late Nick Seymour-Jones, and Chris Brown and his dedicated crew. In Australia astrology is the second religion of the majority of premies, BTW. John

Subject: Re: THE STARS From: Livia To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 08:40:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How interesting that astrology is the second religion of the majority of premies in Australia. It's probably because they know M believes in it. In England a lot of the male premies love telling crude jokes, especially misogynistic ones. They never used to, but began doing this when they found out M does it. In fact, I've spent time with two (devout) male premies recently, both of whom started spouting unfunny crude jokes at me. Extremely weird but sadly understandable. I suppose all this mindlessness goes with the territory of being a devotee. Shiver. Love, Livia

Subject: To LIV, re: shiver From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:44:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'They never used to, but began doing this when they found out M does it' I may get flamed for this from the realists out there, but I wondered when I heard about M being heavily into alcohol, depression, outbursts, tarot etc, that somehow (oo ee oo ee) premies that were so focused on him were somehow getting, dunno, 'psychically imprinted' with his personality traits. I noticed how some very sensitive and focussed on M pwks that had always been pretty straight and balanced would really get out there after a coupla drinks too many, then came the tarot stuff, astrology, psychic readings, all stuff that had been looked down upon in the past. I would never have thought something so whacky, but it does seem a very strange coincidence, maybe just a sign of the times. The jokes thing is very weird too, almost like you had to be like that to be talking in the right code...doesn't really wash tho', does it?! What do you reckon? nuts or what? Much love to you L, AV

Subject: Re: To LIV, re: shiver From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 12:11:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, it's not a coincidence - you're spot on. Too many years as a devotee tends to remove your ability to be yourself or even know who you are....the very opposite of what we originally thought would happen. This very devoted premie I spent time with recently seemed obsessed with his Applemac computer as well as telling dirty misogynistic jokes ad tedium. I wonder if he believes in astrology and does the tarot too? I'll have to ask him! God this is so weird the more you think about it. The premies are too unsure of themselves to follow their own likes and dislikes. The ones who retain their sense of who they are are the ones who begin to drift because they can't stand what they see in Maharaji's world. Then they dare to look at EPO and a year later they look again and then...bingo! I wonder if any of the female devoted premies tell misogynistic jokes? I wouldn't put it past them... Lots of love to you too AV Liv XXX

Subject: Asrtrology, misogyny and MACs From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 13:41:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh boy, Livia and AV, you could be describing four of my closest premie friends (who live in the UK BTW.) Two of them even took up smoking and drinking which amazed me because they never had before and of course they all have MACs. Having been out of premiedom for 15 or so years until 2 years ago, I had no idea why until I found out about Rawat's personal life on EPO. The misogyny is absolutely rampant among the anonymous Australian male trolls who have posted here. Astrology is also the premies' second religion here in California but their misogyny is carefully hidden as it is not accepted here. And thanks John Mac for the astrologer info. It seems that Rawat is a superstitious fool.

Subject: Re: Asrtrology, misogyny and MACs From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 18:33:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I used to know a premie well - he was the most fervent vegetarian. He utterly despised people who ate meat. He made his own tofu and went on to run a vegetarian restaurant. Then he heard that Maharaji ate meat. Lo! My premie friend was no longer a vegetarian but feasted on beefburgers. He then began accusing premies who clung to their vegetarianism as 'stuck in their concepts.' I'll come up with some more examples soon - they keep springing to mind. Love, Liv

Subject: Don't be deceived From: Marianne To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:05:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV: Sorry, but this was the kind of garbage that was promoted about the comet Kohoutek when the Millennium festival happened in Houston. It was a total failure. Don't get sucked into these things.

Subject: Hi Marianne OT From: Cynthia To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 21:19:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How are you? I've been busy, you? Email me sometime when you have time... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Thanx for the reality check Marianne! (nt) From: AV To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 05:03:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (nt)

Subject: Heaven's Gate From: PatC To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 05:00:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Don't get sucked into these things.'' But didn't those Heaven's Gate cultists want to be sucked into a comet? :C)

Subject: Saturn opposite Pluto /Jupiter opposite Chiron Chart From: RJC To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 22:18:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For those who are interested, this weekend, Saturn will be opposite Pluto and Jupiter will be opposite Chiron. See chart below Years ago I heard that Maharaji had his tarot cards read every week. Most of his ilk are pretty superstitious. Because he is so lost in his own deceptions he is forced to rely upon a universe and possibly a creator about which he knows nothing. Such ego-maniac types quite often suffer bouts of paranoia and depression during periods when things aren't working well. Often these types resort to astrologers and other so-called seers of the invisible because their own lack of awareness and self knowledge become blatantly obvious. Tho they be masters of manipulation they also remove themselves from their intuition, a gift only available to those who are humble. He may have an astrologer but it is unlikely that an astrologer would advise having any kind of important gathering during such a classically malefic planetary alignment as Pluto opposite Saturn. The most significant of these oppositions is the Saturn opposite Pluto which has been present overhead all during the 9-11 events. It has been foreboding prior to the events in lower Manhattan during the final washout of the Nasdaq and seeming collapse of global economy from the mid to late summer and continues to be ominous now with seeming un-solvable problems in the middle east. Mythically, Pluto the God of the Underworld is placing an intolerable strain upon the forces of status quo represented by Saturn. The structure of things is crumbling as in earth quake and volcano. Primordial forces will not be restrained by crustal formations such as societies and political correctness. It is a time of continuing explosive change. We will not see relief from this aspect until mid-summer. Chiron opposite Jupiter, mythologically suggests that there is also stress placed upon efforts to mend or heal the many societal and cultural open sores upon the face of this earth at this time. It is a time when a reasonable man or woman gives up hope. It is a time when the likes of the false leaders ultimately destroys. It is a time when the Hitlers, Mussolinis, Jim Jones, Stalins, Sadam Husseins , Maharajis, (or whatever they want to be called now ((Rattwats or whatever)) and all others who attempt and succeed in their deception of the masses for their own polical or financial gain are often overthrown by the very forces which originally empowered them.   Any other questions?

Subject: Hmmm...a 5.1 EARTHQUAKE hit upstate NY... From: Cynthia To: RJC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 13:12:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't feel anything but I slept in this morning. A 5.1 in Plattsburgh, New York is quite unusual. Geezum Crow! Upstate NY Earthquake www.thechamplainchannel.com/news/1409428/detail.html

Subject: Re: Hmmm...a 5.1 EARTHQUAKE hit upstate NY... From: Crispy To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 18:40:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia, We felt it here in Ontario as well. I just found out this afternoon its epicentre was Plattsburgh NY - omagawd. It was no great shakes like NAR has seen - just a 20-second tremor here - but things were shaking enough in the room to wake me up. Then I dozed back into sleep land and started 're-dreaming it' as a major slit in the earth at the side of our house. The house was rolling lightly & gently onto its side, and I was wondering how I could climb UP through the window at the top of the room with one arm loaded with clothes... 'she came out thru the bedroom window' - kind of like escaping Mj's sinking Titanic... Cheers, and welcome back, Cynthia. Hope you folks in Vermont are okay?! Crispy

Subject: Re: Hmmm...a 5.1 EARTHQUAKE hit upstate NY... From: New-Age Redneck To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 13:49:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NO biggie...... :) Cynthia, I've slept through 5's before, too. I'm sure PatC and Joe can put the exclamation point on that one.... he he he. If you want a really wild ride, try timing a visit to kilauea when it begins a 'new' episode. Now THAT's entertainment.... he he he :)

Subject: No, NAR, I don't sleep through quakes From: PatC To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 14:51:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I live almost on the San Andreas fault which, at this latitude, is in the ocean not far from my house. I'm one of those people who feel even small ones. One of my bookmarks is the seismic activity website and sure enough, sometimes even if I only get a ''sinking feeling,'' it turns out to have been slippage in the fault - 2 point something. I enjoy quakes since we don't get thunderstorms here. ''Foot massage'' as the happy cows say in the California Dairy Board commercials.

Subject: Los terremotos From: Mickey the Pharisee To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 18:17:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I was in California, I always seemed to be near the epicenter of the big northern Californian quakes. I was in Morgan Hill when the big one hit there in 1984 and was in Scotts Valley when the Loma Prieta quake happened in 1989. When Mona and I were in Costa Rica a few years ago there were several quakes every week. The woman we were staying with was surprised that quakes didn't bother us, but we explained that we were Californians and it was normal to us. I like the foot massage idea! Very few quakes in Panama, but we have great thunderstorms!

Subject: Hola, Padre From: PatC To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 19:08:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You lucky devil. I miss thunderstorms. Grew up watching them every night coming on from the ocean while the adults sat and sipped sundowners. Of course Loma Prieta was more than a foot-massage. I also enjoyed it but couldn't say so because too many people were killed or homeless. Hope you're fit as a fiddle and ready for love.

Subject: That's the one, Mickey From: New-Age Redneck To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 18:24:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for joggling my brain. The Loma Prieta quake (89) was the one I was trying to remember. I thought it was 90.... isn't space/time the first thing you lose when you're going senile? Must be.... :)

Subject: Quakes and Floods and Fires...O/T From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 17:03:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat, The CA Dairy Board have the happy ladies saying a quake is a 'foot massage?' That's hysterical. I laughed out loud at that. My friend up in northern VT, (called the Northeast Kingdom) gets up very early for work so he was awake and up when the quake hit. His old dog Duke was lying on the floor and lifted his head up during the shaking and then went back to sleep. You gotta know this dog:) I slept through a 500 year flood in the Village where I used to live. The road was filled with people, all under my bedroom window watching the brook and Mad River cresting with blasted out septic systems and big propane tanks raging by. They were wondering if they should wake us but decided only if there was an official evacuation order!LOL! When I looked out the window to Main St. (this is a small village, mind you) I could see the water above the bridge (now this within 40 feet of my house). When we got outside everybody was making fun of us for sleeping through a 500 year flood. It did immense damage. FEMA actually came. It took huge old boulders in our old swimming hole in the Mad River and moved them effortlessly. Then an inn in the Village caught fire and again, it was within 75 feet or less of our house. The only thing that woke me up was the fire pumper truck right under our bedroom window. It was the biggest and most frightening fire I ever seen. The Village. Everytime Tom and I remember living in 'The Village' we think of that old series ''The Prisoner.'' Patrick McCoughan (sp?) We have all the episodes on tape. Every one from public TV. Be seeing you, Cynthia

Subject: Please stop posting on weekends :C) From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 19:11:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm trying to eat lunch, feed the dogs and take a shower in 15 minutes before going back to the salt-mines. You must be a heavy sleeper. :)

Subject: Re: Please stop posting on weekends :C) From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 21:37:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, My insomnia went away. Plus (and don't tell him I said this) Tom is the most jumpy sleeper in the world lately. It feels like an earthquake all night sometimes. We have fun with eachother talking in our sleep. I can talk to him sometimes when he's sleep talking. He got up early yesterday and leaning over in bed I touched his arm and said ''I made a cake for you in my sleep.'' I never bake. I like to cook meals not pastry.

Subject: But baking is real bliss From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 04:20:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We bake fresh bread everyday which is the most luxurious thing I could ask for. Also Tipsy Cake, Hawerkoek, Melktert and Dutch Chocolate cake with strawberry preserves and chantilly. But bread's the most important to me. Have you ever tried baking bread? You'll never look back. Our customers just gobble up our fresh bread like those gloomies just gobble up silly Mili. :'( I just discovered Chuck's emotikon page and I am experimenting with new ones. Hey, if they're there - use 'em!-)

Subject: Re: But baking is real bliss From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 05:25:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know baking is blissful. I have done a lot of bread making in past years. I like to make pies, but one reason I don't bake a lot is that I end up eating too much and my weight goes up. Tom was a baker in 'The Village' where we used to live at an ''old European and Vermont style General Store.'' Quite a place. He'd bring home pastry, cookies, cakes, and of course fresh baked bread. Just the smell of bread in the oven is heavenly. I must get back into it again, I keep telling Tom I'm going to but haven't in years.:)

Subject: Awwww, c'mon From: New-Age Redneck To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 15:11:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just tryin' to have soem fun..... You guys get earthquakes all the time (I know, I was homeported in Long Beach for awhile....) Actually, I got to see your fine city from my ship after the last big one in... was it 90? It's so long ago..... The ship I was attached to pulled in and we fed/housed the homeless folks for awhile, to get them off the streets and into a safe place. Wait a minute..... Are you trying to tell me that you can tell the difference between the moving of earth and .... uhhh.... the earth moving? (when it's a 5 or less? :)

Subject: See above to Cynthia From: PatC To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 19:12:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're making me late for work.

Subject: I know it's no biggie... From: Cynthia To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 14:04:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi NAR, I know folks on the west coast will laugh at a 5.1, but it was felt as far away as Baltimore, MD. A friend of mine just told me he felt it up in Vermont near the Canadian border where he lives. Me? I was sound asleep, LOL! :)

Subject: Ok, I'll be serious.... :) From: New-Age Redneck To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 15:19:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The very first time I was in a quake, Guam then Philippines, it was unnerving and exciting at the same time. Neither was very large, numerically (I think the one in Guam was a 5 and the PI was a 6 point something), but they sure got my attention..... :) The two biggest quakes I experienced in California were the Landers quake and Big-Bear quake back in ...ahhhhh .... I think it was 92??? Well, that was exciting..... The very biggest was, in fact, on Kilauea on the big island. Of course, there I was actually AT the epicenter.... so exciting wasn't exactly the word I used..... more like E-Ticket at Disneyland! Plus the plumes of lava flying out of the rift at puu'o'o' added some spectacular visual effects..... to say the least! We kinda got outta there...... ahem.... rapidly :)

Subject: Re: Saturn opposite Pluto From: Zelda To: RJC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 23:26:51 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Hi Do you know of an online ephemeris that shows the positions of Chiron ? Also- my Siderial ephmeris shows Moon,Venus, Mars, Sat and NN in degrees of 4, 10,16,18 and 23 Taurus respecively with Pluto in 22 Scorp.-- on April 30 - with Jupiter 16 Gemini, which looks interesting with what you say re Chiron I dont know what all that means but sombody mention Vortex? put the beer in the fridge Z

Subject: It means, you lucky dog you From: New-Age Redneck To: Zelda Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 16:47:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It 'means' that you get to see a sight that won't repeat again for quite some time. Take advantage and go look at it. Vortex, shmortex.... the only vortex of consequence around here is the one produced by a flushing toilet. Does your go to the clockwise or counter-clockwise? :)

Subject: Chiron Verlag From: RJC To: Zelda Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 23:39:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Amazon.de OR Chiron Ephemeride 2000-2050

Subject: Thanks RJC! [nt] From: Zelda To: RJC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 00:07:05 (EDT) Email Address: none Message:

Subject: Planets aren't stars :) From: New-Age Redneck To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 14:29:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV, planets aren't stars.... that's a beginning :) It was probably a co-inky-dink that amaroo was scheduled for the same time frame as this, rather lengthy event. It'll last about a month in the western evening sky. My perspective? It's really pretty. As with all other ...ahem .... major planetary alignments, this one will have absolutely zilch effect on the ozone layer, my grandmother's hives, tidal forces, the man-in-the-moon, animal behavior or spiritual endeavors.... Unless, of course you can find the correct corresponding vortex site in Sedona :) :)

Subject: Re: Planets aren't stars :) From: AV To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 16:16:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I found an interesting vortex in Encinitas once, but she refused to give me her number.......BTW, you shouldn't poo poo astrology, for a lot of people Mercury in Uranus is a very painful experience.... Planets??? Stars???......they're all so far, far, far away.... (fade in Hubble telescope shot to background music of Taverner's 'Protecting Veil') Be in awe of the universe my man, be in awe! (or whaaaaa??) PS hope granny found a cure for those hives.

Subject: A one-way tick to K-Pax From: Prot To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 16:24:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The intergalactic laxative will take you from here to Mars ... It think it is time for the big BM to head on out!

Subject: A one way trip to infinity... From: Cynthia To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 16:48:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I came upon this quite by accident. I was searching in Google under Prem Rawat. Had some time and came upon this NASA 'send you name to the stars' project. Scroll down to Rawat. Then click on the site map and see the pretty stars that follow your cursor. It must be magic. Gee, I feel positively irreverent today... Love, Cynthia in 85 F deg. all week in April in VERMONT! And it's snowing on Sunday--shit, the buds, the flowers, all tricked! Prem Rawat on Chip 2 www.jpl.nasa.gov/stardust/overview/microchip/names2r4.html

Subject: Oh, my gawd! From: New-Age Redneck To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 17:04:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not only is HIS name on it..... mine is, too! Does that mean that I'm permanently spacey with..... him? Gaaaaa yecch! Wait a minute..... Dr. Tim is riding along....... I'll be ok.... really.... I will....

Subject: Oh, my gawd is right, NAR! From: Cynthia To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 18:09:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought it was cute. I'm sure there are plenty of non-cult leaders listed on both micro-chips so don't worry. And you can't go wrong with Dr. Tim:);)

Subject: Hey what happened to the ass cheeks? From: Gerry To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 09:51:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Somehow, the logo for my new Foundation, the Kiss My Arse Foundation, has disappeared from the web. Chris, me lad, where is thy wondrous creation? Now add to my woes, I've been banned from Life's Grating and the cult has been flooding my mail with virii. Oh, the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune...

Subject: Re: Hey what happened to the ass cheeks? From: blush... To: Gerry Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 23:47:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: whoops. I thought seeing as it made its way to the top of the page that you had copied and pasted the graphic. It was sitting somewhere it shouldn't have been and I didn't want to get busted. I can send the file, but where? hey, but how come I can still see the image? Is it my cache? Ms. Paranoic not-Telling.

Subject: Easy now, keep breathing and look at these From: Roger eDrek To: Gerry Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 22:41:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Holy Rollers www.oz.net/~drek/dance_dirty.html www.oz.net/~drek/grafix/walking_tits.gif

Subject: Ger...I bet they didn't like it... From: Cynthia To: Gerry Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 16:25:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My first thought when you put The Kiss My Arse Foundation Logo up there was Gerry is in for some viral emails. Also, they probably didn't think it was funny;) I bet the whole cyberstalking gang is having a meeting at Amaroo right now talking about YOU, GeRrY. Just because YOU have no respect or gratitude for Prem Pal, The Rawat their lord.

Subject: Not just Gerry:) From: JHB To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 17:15:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My first thought when you put The Kiss My Arse Foundation Logo up there was Gerry is in for some viral emails. Also, they probably didn't think it was funny;) I bet the whole cyberstalking gang is having a meeting at Amaroo right now talking about YOU, GeRrY. Just because YOU have no respect or gratitude for Prem Pal, The Rawat their lord. --- My collection of virus infected emails has been boosted today as well. I haven't thought of a good use for them, but I've kept every one! John.

Subject: Re: Not just Gerry:) From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 18:11:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, As long as you take a few aspirin or motrin you'll be fine. Maybe you can place all the viruses in a nice basket and send them back. ''Return to Sender, Address Unknown''

Subject: Please put it back nt From: Gail To: Gerry Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 16:25:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Oh really??? From: New-Age Redneck To: Gerry Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 14:35:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm sure you are aware of this, gerry: If they are flooding your email with viri-ridden attachments, it's a felony under U.S. law. It's, also, pretty easy to prove. Add to that, the FBI is really getting pissed with this kind of activity and don't have any sense of humor when it comes to prosecuting it and, me thinks, we have a winning combination. Give the local FBI a call, they will treat it like terrorism, automatically.

Subject: Why EV was doomed From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 00:23:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I received the following from one of those many moles burrowing under my garden:- Miami Synch Team Proposal September, 2000 (as revised at meeting on 9/16/00) Purpose, Function and Responsibilities of Synch Team Purpose: To support M's work in the Miami area Function: To represent all the service areas - To have communication with and feedback from all the service areas To synchronize all the service teams To have regular meetings To have ongoing team assessment Responsibilities: Create action steps based on input from service areas and the community Make decisions for the operation of the community Oversee operations of the community Planning (events, meetings, etc.) Synchronize with national teams, as needed Who is on the Synch Team? A grouping of service areas is listed below. Representatives from each of these service areas will be members of the Synch Team. We recommend that each area designate both a representative and a 'co-representative/back-up' who will also attend meetings of the Synch Team. 1) Propagation, including Introductory/Spreading Knowledge team, aspirant team, follow up team and instructors 2) Events (non 'public' functions), includes program managers, productions, translation, headsets, hotel liaison, video scheduling, logistics, facility, catering 3) Events ('public' functions), includes PR, video library, Visions, MC's, assistance (ushers, security, safety, medical), information, information phone lines 4) Finance, includes accounting, contributions, fundraising and resources. 5) Operations, includes communications, database, phone tree, and statistics Additional members of Synch Team: 6) National event team liaison 7) Human Resources team liaison Elan Vital contact team (formerly called 'City Contact' team) (More will be discussed about this below.) How will members of the Synch Team be determined? The members of all the service areas as grouped above will meet together. Talk to each other about your teams. Do some role assessment and team assessment. Determine who could best represent the whole area. Determine a co-representative. We propose that a 'Facilitation Team' help with this process. This team will work with the areas so that everyone understands what we are doing and feels part of it. This team will only function until the Synch Team is identified. Once the Synch Team is in operation, it will do its own ongoing team assessment. Guidelines for Synch Team Commitment Qualifications: 'right person for right job' bring your strength excellent communication skills Represent your service areas, no personal agenda Develop job description Provide opportunities for training Regular team assessment to facilitate growth, change, moving forward Rotation system Each person can only represent one of the main service areas (for example, one person cannot represent both the propagation group and the finance group, etc.) Purpose, Function and Responsilibity of 'Elan Vital' contact team Purpose: To maintain and protect the PR, legal and financial status of Miami as an Elan Vital city Function: To be part of the Synch Team, but with specific duties. Responsilibities: Maintain the legal and PR standards for every written document and action of the community. Maintain the financial solvency of the community Communicate information from Elan Vital to the community Supply statistics and other requested information to Elan Vital Follow the guidelines in the 'City Contact' Guide Book How will members of the 'Elan Vital' contact team be determined? Some members of the Synch Team may fulfill some of the duties of the Elan Vital contact team. Other people may be identified who are not on the Synch Team. If that happens, those people also become part of the Synch Team. The Synch Team will assume the responsibility of identifying who will be on the 'Elan Vital' contact team, with input from Elan Vital as needed.

Subject: Re: Why EV was doomed From: Sir Dave To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:01:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I tried to read it all and take it in but my attention was drawn away to go and watch some paint dry.

Subject: Re: Why EV was doomed From: Bolly Shri To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 06:39:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: wHAT ARE THE HOURS AND PAY SCALE, PENSION AND SICKNESS BENEFITS?

Subject: Synch Team Job Description From: JHB To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 00:26:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sadly, it's probably too late to apply, but here's the job description for the sink team reps:- JOB DESCRIPTION OF SYNCHRONIZATION TEAM REPRESENTATIVE The following service opportunity is available for someone to enjoy in Miami: 1) Represent a service group. (Each group is comprised of several service areas.) Serve as a communication link between this group and the synch team. 2) Have an in-depth familiarity with the nature, operations and needs of each service area within the group that you represent. 3) Attend all synch team meetings, where you will represent your service group. If you cannot attend a meeting, you will have a co-representative who is just as current on all matters as yourself to attend. 4) Have regular meetings / communication with your group's area managers: - to be able to have an ongoing assessment and knowledge of the needs and effectiveness of each area that you represent. - to accurately communicate these developments to the synch team. - to relay information from the synch team to the different service areas you represent. The above will require a real commitment of time and energy.: Regular meetings will be at least monthly, if not weekly or more, in addition to your ongoing communication with the service areas in your group. Because it may require several weeks to have effective teamwork between yourself, your group and the synch team truly develop, it should be understood that this is not a short-term commitment. If you find that you do not enjoy the service, it will be your option to leave, provided there is someone trained to replace you. Because you will be representing and communicating the needs and understandings of both the synch team and your service group to each other, excellent communication skills are required: one -on-one in meetings electronically It will also be your responsibility to stimulate ongoing self-assessment by the people within your service group; (Do they enjoy what they are doing? How can it be improved? Do they have the time, skill and interest? Do they have input regarding how effective their areas are in helping propagation?)

Subject: Go Sink Team Go Sink! From: Anandaji To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 01:20:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am a chauffeur. I haul corporate types around. I either listen to them talking on their cell phones or to each other. The word 'team' has certainly emerged as the corporate strategy du jour, hasn't it? What was it last year: 'relationship marketing?' That's where a company actually acknowledges that if you develope a (more or less) two-way relationship with the client that you will sell more stuff to them. This versus the previous strategy of jamming it down their throats. Duh! Anyway, it was difficult to read through your above message as I became increasingly nauseous; no offence to you, of course. But perhaps in the future you could issue a warning: WARNING: THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE MAY MAKE YOU PEWK. My God, but it has all plummeted from the early days of lotus flowers, garlands and arti. Synch team. BAAARRRRRRFFFFFFF

Subject: Waltz with the Witchdoctor From: Neville To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 06:41:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I’ve got a question. I’ve been constantly surprised, both in the posts here and in the 'Journeys', at the number of people who say that knowledge works—that whatever M’s foibles, the meditation techniques are effective. For me meditation was utter boredom unrelieved by the slightest transcendental experience. Now this could be a case of different strokes for different folks, but consider this scenario: A witchdoctor gives a bogus cure to a number of patients. By nature alone one third get better, one third stay the same, and one third get worse. At this point the well-documented placebo effect kicks in and the ones who get better attribute the cure to the witchdoctor. The next step is for the witchdoctor to bring all the 'placebo positives' together, and scatter/ isolate the 'placebo negatives'. The placebo positives all shout with one voice, reinforcing the witchdoctor’s authority, and the disgruntled negatives are effectively drowned out. (This is not theory, but something I have witnessed operating in the context of 'alternative' medicine.) The scattering of 'negatives' is what has happened to us ex-premise, until the Internet permitted us to link up and compare notes. (In the 27 years since I left DLM I encountered not one single person who went through my experience—until I found this website.) So I raise the question: do the meditation techniques actually do anything, or are they just a placebo? Are you a 'placebo positive' for whom an hour of watching fish in a tank would have the same calming effect? Do you really need meditation? Could you contemplate dropping the practice for a few weeks as an experiment? (I think it was Tonette who relayed how meditation seemed the most important thing in the world, until one day it was dropped and it was found to be completely superfluous.) I don’t want to trample on anyone’s self-esteem, but meditation is part of M’s hold on premies—for many people it seems to have been the crucial evidence of his authority. I would like to see it roundly condemned as a waste of time, but I seem to be in a minority. Your comments? Neville

Subject: Re: Waltz with the Witchdoctor From: Livia To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 03:53:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good point Neville, about negative placebos. I know some people found it easier to feel something in meditation than others. I came out of my Knowledge session slightly disappointed - suppose I was hoping something of cosmic significance was going to happen. After a few days, though, something did happen, which was that I began to experience some of the feelings I remembered having as a child. I do remember life feeling a lot more magical at times, and often feeling as if I had gone somewhere quite deep. But there were also countless times when I sat there with thoughts just spinning round and round and getting nowhere. I don't actually think it's the meditation that's the mindf***. It's the belief system around this particular meditation. Meditation is known to be beneficial. I know there are exes here who would disagree with this, but there's scientific proof of its beneficial effects. I saw an article in a national paper the other day about meditation being used in a school here and the way it calmed the children down and stopped them being unruly and aggressive with each other to a quite astonishing degree. I don't think it was the meditation that was ever the problem for premies; it is the belief system around it. It's the demonising of the mind and it's Maharaji's (apparent) world-view that is so flummoxing for premies. He apparently criticised the internet the other day for being 'full of information'. Er, yes, Maharaji. He devalues so much that is obviously of intrinsic worth and meaning. He belittles the efforts of so many to live rich and meaningful lives. He appears to trivialise so much that is of value, and I think this impacts very damagingly in premies' lives. This was the thing that cause me to begin distancing myself from Maharaji's world. I began to meet non-premies and noticed that their values were often considerably deeper than the trite values of premies, who thought themselves to be so deep and knowledgeable. And the more you move away from Maharaji's world, the shallower and shallower it turns out to be. He trivialises, they trivialise. He mocks, they mock. He self-aggrandises, they self-aggrandise. And the most ironic thing of all is that while all this is going on, Maharaji is secretly acquiring all the trappings of the world he claims to be above. Maharaji's approach to the world is cynical because he is cynical. And because of their association with him, the premies can't help taking on his values. This is why they seem so weird and dissonant. The meditation is completely separate to all of this, and could well be beneficial. The trouble for exes, especially recent exes, is that it carries to many connotations. Probably best to leave it for a while, clear your hed of all the nonsense (it takes a while) and come back to it later, if it ever genuinely made you feel good. Or do a different one. Whatever. Or take up something else altogether. Whatever helps you to live life consciously, wisely and creatively. That's my view for what it's worth. With love, Livia

Subject: Beautiful Liv, please keep reminding me From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 14:05:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Waltz with the Witchdoctor From: kg To: Neville Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 00:22:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On occasion profound things happened and otherwise it had the 'stilling' effect BUT it didn't make a difference. Choosing to think and behave differently and consciously is far more useful and powerful. That has brought me meaningful and constructive happiness, direction and insight. Meditation I now view like I would a joint, tab of acid, schooner, walk in nature.... its a personal choice none of which taken on their own amount to much more than what they are.

Subject: oxigenation nT 9)) From: aha To: Neville Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 13:13:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Negative placebo From: Anandaji To: Neville Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 01:35:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A great question, Neville. Really one to ponder. Unquestionably, the premie placebo effect was enormously powerful and I was right there declaring that I had found ...'this wonderful place inside.' Up until last December, just before I was rudely awakened upon stumbling upon EPO, I was meditating regularly. I wasn't getting much out of it, so I went to see M in Miami hoping for a tune-up. I was still very much in the positive placebo, though I was feeling depressed about this and a lot of stuff. I don't know how long it would have taken me, if ever, to overcome the positive placebo. Since December, I have only meditated a few times. When I did, it was actually quite intriging, as I allowed, as if to be rebellious, my mind to just chit chat away. That is the hardest thing for me to stomach: that for 28 years I actually thought my mind was the enemy. I kind of want to experiment some more with meditation, but the whole affair has put a really bad taste in that inner space. Instead, I have been re-channeling energy to making money, falling in love with my wife and family and excercising. I would rather spend an hour doing any of that before heading back into the attic to sit on my arse and smell incense. I don't know if this is what you were asking exactly. But I like your image of the negative placebos being conveniently scattered to the point of being harmless until this miraculous Internet brought them together. Anandaji

Subject: Re: Waltz with the Witchdoctor From: Bolly Shri To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 07:41:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I like the way you put that. Maybe it does maybe it doesn't. It has always acted as one of the great internal guilt inducers, if you experience nothing it is because (a) you are not submitting yourself in a suitably humble way (b) even though you just did 97 hours solid service a little lila is in order (c) you are in your mind. In your mind is the most effective one for shutting up the doubters, In your mind was the other end of the spectrum from ms divine lila. In the early days of sitting under a blanket I often fell asleep and never saw the divine donut of light that 100% of true devotees saw. In an effort to reach those heights I submited to plenty of rigorous service or cheap labour as I've since come to recognise it. I never did see the great donut and have since questioned whether confectionary is an inate divine state. I do on occasion see light though I do not practice the techniques. I often saw this as a child while drifting off to sleep. And as for being in my mind, recently I have acknowledged that thinking, the great DLM no no is a source of great pleasure. I can't imagine what I was thinking when I agreed to limit it as an activity of central importance in my life. So think on Neville, maybe grow your nails now you're not scratching out your own eyes, perhaps it works perhaps it doesn't. What does it matter. Enjoy the other things you have time for now the blanket has retired. Like thinking does it work as well as a glass of wine with good friends Enjoy Life keep breathing love etc.

Subject: For as long as I live From: Dermot To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 22:35:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll try to keep breathing:) .....I think I'll pack it in when I die though :)

Subject: That's funny, Dermot! NT [nt] From: Anandaji To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 01:36:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Waltz with the Witchdoctor From: maria To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 07:37:00 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: ...it seemed to me that in the early days after I received K it was something to look forward to and I thought I had an 'expereince.' As the years rolled on nothing much was happening, and the last few years were completely blankety blank of blank zero happening meditation wise. I would say that when I was younger and busier perhaps, it seemed that meditating was the excuse to escape from my duties whatever they were, but then also my duties were all crammed into a much shorter space of time because I was trying to cram in 1 or 2 hours worth of meditation! But the final blow was when I really began to have a very strange and uncomfortable time meditating with those techniques in the last year or so in which I was still a premie. It was horrible, absolutely hideous feeling when I did it which greatly encouraged me to stop it. Been happier and stress free without the nagging of 'having to meditate more and better' (as nothing was ever good enough then) and glad to say life is fab without any of it. Maria

Subject: Update From: Amaroo crew To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 05:35:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The camp ground is full. KS for about 100 yesterday. Everything is looking good. AC

Subject: Thanks for your report from the trenches From: PatC To: Amaroo crew Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 14:19:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hope it's not too muddy and dirty.

Subject: Oh, it's so totally cool here! From: Dickie Pwickie To: Amaroo Crew Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 17:16:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Amaroo Crew, Good to see you are solid enough in That Experience that you are unafraid to post amongst this batch of burnt cookies. I am having sooooo much fun here in Amaroo. My Pioneer accomodations are quite nice. And, by the grace, that poisonous snake just slithered away from me. Must have felt the power I was feeling being so close to the Source. What area are you guys in? I'm over on the end near the sister's shower. You know, the one with the extra ventilation that allows a quick peek? Funny, but I was walking by the showers as I do several times a day when I just happened to see Pauline Premie and Andrea Erickson taking a shower. What was so beautiful is that, even though I only glanced over there once, it looked like they were saving water by using the same stall and were even helping each other lather up. Isn't that sweet? M has taught us to be soooo loving and compassionate with each other. It's just so really and truly beautiful. Still hoping The Speaker will be giving us that Special Opportunity to pay our respects tomorrow. Wasn't Arti just so cool last night? Let's meet over near the PAM smokers' area later, okay? Synchronistically yours in the One Foundation, Dickie Pwickie

Subject: Re: Oh, it's so totally cool here! From: bOLLY sHRI To: Dickie Pwickie Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 06:44:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OH! BROTHER i CAN JUST FEEL THE LOVE OOZING FROM HIS FEET AS i READ YOUR DIVINE POSTING. KISS THE FEET FOR ME JAI SAT

Subject: Sorry Bolly - no can do. From: Dickie Pwickie To: bOLLY sHRI Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:38:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hear your deep longing to be close to the Foundation Director. I would love to, errr, pay respects of gratitude for you Bolly, but that just doesn't work. Hey, you must be one of those early 70's hippies that the Foundation Director saved from the drug culture. In the past, one could imagine anything but these days, each Student has his own Experience. You can't have my Experience and I can't have yours. My Experience is mine, all mine. I, me, me, MINE!!!!!! And it's just so, you know, beautiful to be synchronized with The Speaker's wishes. So start saving now for the next Amaraoo Opportunity. Many of the fine Students I've talked with say they don't miss the extra kidney at all and sharing one with others is both humanitarian and, like, totally paid for the trip. BTW : Love your name Bolly Shri. Did your parents call you that or did M name you when he named SatGanga, et al? Hey, gotta go. Mahatma Coat said he was going to show me the special Chillum Technique. Says he showed it to The Foundation Director when he was 12. Cool! Yours in the One Foundation, Dickie Pwickie

Subject: Re: Update From: Sir Dave To: Amaroo crew Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 11:39:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's fantastic.

Subject: Can anybody help me From: Loaf To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 01:31:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is a sincere and open-minded question.. so please no HUGE jokes at my expense ! The other day I looked at mahaharaji.net and selected the 3 minute quote slide show... and apart from getting irritated at the lack of punctuation... I got all mellow and blissed out. Certain thoughts are triggers to me, to a state of contentment... and Maharaji's words and sometimes premies remind me and bring to me a state of calm which has been my 'home' or 'default' for nearly 20 years. Now... I know that there are people lined up to throw their shoes at me and demand that I get out of the satsang chair... but I cannot deny the presence of good feeling when someone speaks softly to me, and reminds me that 'this life is precious' It is still effective. I am certain that I have a LOT in common with Premies... in that the words of The Master can at times lull me into a sense of attractive childlike trust and calm. (bear with me folks !) Thats what a good storyteller does... he captures the attention... and then leads it. It is in the rhythm and the pauses, in the tone and the pacing, aside from the meaning that we find ourselves 'transported'. I love being told stories. In fact I work with arguably one of the greatest British storytellers.. Oliver Postgate.. and in his voice as he narrated Bagpuss, the Clangers, Ivor the Engine and Noggin the Nog whole generations have found time to stop. I know this.. because they write letters to him. Being in a position on stage where you can command the attention of many people is an art - taking that attention and directing it towards a 'feeling' is a very powerful and captivating act. It has a lot to do with what you DON'T say, to do with the signals you DON'T give... assume that everybody in the audience is your friend, and they will be. Give them no reason to reject you from their psyche... and they wont. Serenade, seduce and lead them to a 'shared set of assumptions' and they wont doubt you. This Life. This Breath. Speak with authority and raise no points of objection... and people will believe you. I was contemplating Mike Dettmers' post the other day... and it dawned on me that IF Maharaji had said 'hey guys I am a fucked up individual like the rest of you... but I can play a role for you if you like'... then the relationship that aspirants' have with him wouldbe remarkably different. Would Knowledge still 'work' ?, Would gratitude and grace still appear to flow ?... but instead there is an element of deception. The central issue that has emerged for me out of the revelations of M's private life is that somehow I believed he was as he appeared to be. I was never allowed to see that it was a performance. Never encouraged to UNDERSTAND what was going on... simply to trust. And trust is a beautiful thing, I think that the beief that we had in Maharaji (and that many still have) is a CREDIT to them. Its easy to be cynical... but in this day and age to have something/someone you believe in.... its kind of sweet ! I can hear the cries of 'yes its kind of deficient too !' - but lets just pause for a moment and honour that part of the human spirit which is able to GIVE itself to the most unlikely of causes.... despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. 'The willing suspension of disbelief' is the very magic of childhood, of theatre and of fiction. But 'willing' is an important word. When we go and see a play, we 'KNOW' its not real... but for those few hours, we can forget the edges of the stage... for the same reason they make cinema screens big, so that we can forget our peripheral vision and enter an imax state of belief in what we see. When a storyteller tells us a story .. we 'know' its not real, and yet we lose our selves in the plot and the telling of it. When maharaji tells us about 'this life', it places us very comfortably at his feet, and it feels strangely familiar. Like home. The way you do when somebody is listening to you. But we are never encouraged to UNDERSTAND why this is appealing, and why he plays this part ...(to the believer it seems) ... so well ! We are never encouraged to comprehend the mechanics of the staging and the role we (and he) play in this suspension of disbelief, and the creation of a new shared 'realm'. I am not saying that this 'Field of Assumptions' is without value... not at all, in fact I am steadfastly reluctant to abandon mine for the horrible hard edges of modern life ! BUT It is important for me, as a Westerner, to seek the edges of my field... for they too are the TRUTH. Maharaji constantly lures people away from the edges of their field into the middle... but unfortunately, all around the edge are your family, your friends, so many psychological 'moderating factors', artistic and theological 'dis-chords' ... that actually the nearer the centre of maharaji's world you reach, the further you are from yourself. Exactly the opposite of what was wanted. The advantage he has over the 'edges of the field' is that he speaks with one voice. he can control and command, he does not fight for attention. The TRUTH however, is at the edge of the carpet, and the really interesting thing, for me, is to reconcile, to understand and to expand my field of vision so my enjoyment of the play NOT in having the wool pulled over my eyes, but in having the scales lifted from them. Dream the dream by all means Amaroo - but your context is far more beautiful and inspiring than your content alone. Its a trick folks.

Subject: Surely you're talking about inspiration From: hamzen To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 18:46:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Know for my self that until I was getting really deep inspiration from elsewhere I was fucked. The very definition of premies if you're being generous is suspension of disbelief. That was the secret for me, and I suspect any other person who's addicted to good vibes, anything that inspires your 'faith' without the 'surrender' of the total sort 'he' requires will trigger and release. And in the releAse you are past the point where that ole gm seduction works. Maybe a bit simplistic but it worked for me bigtime.

Subject: spot on hammy ! [nt] From: Loaf To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:55:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Feelings and their sources... From: Chuck S. To: Loaf Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 14:46:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: "Certain thoughts are triggers to me, to a state of contentment... and Maharaji's words and sometimes premies remind me and bring to me a state of calm which has been my 'home' or 'default' for nearly 20 years." Even now there is a certain state of mind I can slip into quite easily, where I can think of Maharaji in a calm, peaceful way. I can read his satsang, or see a video, and certain words and phrases can evoke a peaceful feeling. I call it my "Premie Heart", and I've found I can still slip into it easily like a comfortable pair of old shoes. I think it's due to a kind of "conditioning" you go through as a premie. It's dangerous when it happens subconsiously, but once you become aware of it, I don't think it's dangerous. When it happens subconsiously, you can fall into the trap of thinking it's special juju from the Goober, when in fact it's a variety of things; conditioning, nostalgia, imagination. I once read satsang about the breath by someone who was not a Premie. This person was not even teaching any kind of meditation. I got high from reading her satsang, it seemed even better than Maharaji's. So much for special juju. I still enjoy those kinds of feelings, but in more constructive ways now, without having to make excuses or do mental backflips, or send checks to anyone. Even though I can still slip into that comfortable old pair of shoes, I can now see that they have holes in them. So I've stopped wearing them, and now I don't get sand in my shoes anymore. That's a lot more comfortable. :)

Subject: yep... thanks Chuck [nt] From: Loaf To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:57:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Can anybody help me From: Livia To: Loaf Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 04:28:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf, that was a brilliant and actually rather moving post and I for one am certainly not going to laugh at you. In fact, I think anyone here who has similar feelings should feel that it's safe to express them here without fear of ridicule, because if we can't be honest how can we understand or deconstruct? I had similar feelings on watching that slide-show - I think it was probably the way the pictures silently faded in and out, plus the way it triggered all the old memories. I was watching a Maharaji video recently (I watch them periodically to see how my feelings are changing) and it showed the beginning of the darshan line at Orlando. I remember it well because I was there. The premies were walking along slowly (or the sequence could have been in slow motion). The soundtrack was an incredibly moving One Foundation track of the particularly emotional variety. It would be hard for any premie not to be moved by that particular sequence as it was portrayed in such a way as to cause maximum impact. Good film-makers can do that. I mentioned that I was there at the time. Yes, I was in that darshan line, but on that paricular occasion I wasn't feeling 'that feeling'. I would hazard a guess that I wasn't unique in that respect but that a good proportion of those extremely devoted looking premies in that darshan line were actually feeling as flat as I was. And then blaming themselves for feeling flat. OK so some of them were feeling huge waves of bliss and love, but how many of us dared to be really honest at that time? The point I'm trying to make is that it's easy to portray a beautiful feeling in a film. You also make the point that Maharaji is an effective speaker in that he understands how to use pacing. You're telling me!!! In one extract I was watching, (of Maharaji speaking) I noticed that he paused at one point for what seemd like an interminably long time. I rewound it to count exactly how long, and it was all of 19 seconds. Think about it, 19 seconds. That is one hell of a long pause. It made me wonder whether he had been studying certain techniques, because it is certainly an extremely attention-holding device. It would be interesting to analyse other techniques he uses - it's an interesting subject. You say that that premie trust and willingness to believe in something is kind of sweet, and yes it is. But as you aptly point out, it's the quality and the reality of what you believe in that in the end is what counts. In the case of Maharaji, I really do think that the flaws in his character impact on the characters of those that believe in him. What you believe in is what you ultimately become. But maybe it's safe to believe in the peaceful feelings you experienced in meditation, if they were/are real for you. Love, Livia

Subject: thanks Livia From: Loaf To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 04:16:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Livia The meditation was conciously secondary to me to the buzz of maha chasing. As you can see in my badly contructed meandering post, what started out as a question quickly turned into an analysis of my own dilemma ! But the question of Knowledge remains... within that practice, I, occaisionally, over a period of 18 years, popped through some barriers. Aside from the usual 'stillness/peace and fireworks (or Not) I remember once or twice finding something so subtle and quiet, but so unarguably ME that it regressed me to childhood. It was such a shock. And things that maharaji had said actually made sense ! '..and suddenly you find...just yourself, wise, just as you are, stubborn , just as you are.. and a fundamental acceptance starts to grow' IT was TRUE ! It felt very very good to have him as my teacher... and I miss him. I think I am still in love with what he was (for me...this is not an objective statement about his nature, but a subjective one about his place in my life) and so it is easy to get wooed... but like hamzen (and Chuck and Pat and Mike and Bryn and all dem wise souls) have said...its inspiration ... which I STILL need. I am THIRSTY for inspiration, for hope for experience and for an influence in my life which will take me beyond my perspective..and yet Iat the same time I am distrustful of authority and wouldnt let a fookin' Guru anywhere near me !! Maharaji was like a tuning fork for me...its just that now I have to play by ear without tuning myself to his monotone key. I am restringing myself, and tuning my strings to a variety of sources... and somehow they are all sounding ME. But at times its unnerving..its a bit like getting dressed without a mirror !

Subject: Re: to Loaf From: AV To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 05:13:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Totally relate to your post, I am on an 'inspiration quest' myself, and yes, I too 'popped thru' the curtain' on more than one instance, if you do find anything that moves you, maybe you'd post it here? warmly, AV

Subject: If it's inspiration you want then.... From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 04:49:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....start inspiring others. Also I get high with a little help from my friends notably Chuck and Andy even if they don't like my fireworks satsang. :C) The answer always has been - just do it. No need for broken hearts. You're a great read but I still think you need a daddy or at least a dirty old man to de-romanticize you. b)

Subject: i agree pat.. BUT From: Loaf To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 07:44:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I say things like 'I think I am still a little bit in love' .. it reads a bit 'heavier' than I intend it. On a deep level, but subtly, there is a part of me that was mesmerized by his function. I never saw M as a 'daddy' - certainly he is not much older than me. Instead it was a bit like having an redeemed and risen and idealised brother. I like to help other people too pat... BUT with my 'role model' having been a subtly abusive one, the temptation to start building a throne/stage/pedastal for myself is irresistable ! So, in order to 'help' I think the best thing is to get out of the way ! I dont want to create a 'risen Loaf' on high, for people to be stunned by... although that is the charismatic and egotistical pattern which maharaji manifested inside me. That is why I have more time for counselling and listening than I do for the blissful rantings of the terminally certain... no matter how comforting ! The certainty I (we) need to find is my (our) own. Other peoples certainty hi-jacks our inner doubt, and so eventually they (Maharaji)usurps a role which is intended for our elder selves. And yet... as i try and live without a role model - as I dress myself internally in all ignorance of what I will look like...life becomes NOT a matter of performance, but of certianty and courage. I am understanding more of the effects of the maha years the more i let them effect me... by which i mean I need to go back and conciously re-experience the highs (and the lows) in order to reposition my psychology in the light of new understandings. It isnt healthy for me to either deny the good times, or to wallow in them and get re-stuck in a dysfunctional relatonship with a phantom golden child - what I need to do is to go back to those familiar places, keep myself company as I re-empathise with my premie self, but my older, wiser self will be there as a point of reference - whereas at the time I only had maharaji. Its almost like rescuing an 'inner child' - turning back time and returning to walk myself out of a maze which at the time seemed to be destination in itself. I wouldnt have missed being an EX for all the tea in china ! Having been a premie actually was the picture frame, the context and the setting for a later journey. As I said.. it appeared to be a destination.. and that is the Trap.. but it is simply a component part in an ongoing journey. The Amaroo 'Journey's end' is a trap and an illusion. Blissful, yes... but long term death.

Subject: The Risen Loaf? From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 13:58:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I sure didn't mean for you to become a guru when I suggested inspiring others. There's all sorts of things you can do for people to make them feel nice. :) If someone is interested in meditation though I will definitely show them with the caveats that I mentioned to Dep Dog below - the consciousness of bliss is not truth or god. It's just bliss.

Subject: I want to be a Guru ! From: Loaf To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 14:45:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Its a terrible compulsion... oh it starts off all friendly enough, sociable even.. but sooner or later I have to establish my status... I will be nice to people, but sooner or later I have to test to see how much gratitude they feel.... and from there on its downhill... foot kissing, service... there is no limit to the bad habits I have learned ! I understand pat... no worries.. i am just enjoying the sound of my own typing :0) Please send your donations to : Friends Of People Around Loaf THE FOPAL FOUNDATION UK

Subject: NO.... send your money to From: New-Age Redneck To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 17:07:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rednecks Of Foreign Legions The ROFL :) Foundation USA

Subject: what about FOPAR ?(Feaux pas) [nt] From: Loaf To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 01:32:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: No, I've got it.... FUBAR :) From: New-Age Redneck To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 12:04:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not sure if you've heard this one or not, Loaf. Here's the 'new' definition: it's 'Fucked Up Being Around Rawat' Yes, the FUBAR foundation for all us brain damaged survivors. Send your donations to: FUBAR USA/UK

Subject: i am WELL FUBAR !!! From: loaf To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 12:31:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Deeply Fubar ! I need co-ordinating ! Help !

Subject: But I know you're only half joking :C) [nt] From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 14:54:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: about 89% joking actually... From: Loaf To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 15:56:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but you cant be too careful !

Subject: OOOPS duplicate From: Loaf To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 07:44:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OOOPS duplicate post Yikes and crikey !

Subject: Re: Can anybody help me From: Mike Finch To: Loaf Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 01:54:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Loaf I personally make a distinction between a warm fuzzy feeling that is nice but goes nowhere, and a warm fuzzy feeling that is profound and is a vehicle for taking me somewhere, making me wiser in some sense. Or more precisely, there is a spectrum of warm fuzzy feelings ranging from these two extremes. Of course, this is purely subjective, and it is my own judgement that decides where on this spectrum any particular warm fuzzy feeling lies. You mention stories as an example. There are certainly some stories that are fun to read, and absorb me for the time I am reading them, but I do not think they affect me in any profound way. Other stories do affect me in a profound way - I find them challenging and inspiring, and I think differently, and possibly more wisely, as a result of reading them. As far as Maharaji's stuff is concerned, certainly in the past it was a warm fuzzy feeling that I thought was very profound, and I endowed it with fundamental life-changing wisdom. Some of it was, actually. I am not sure if it would give me a warm fuzzy feeling at all any more. However, let's assume it would. The difference is that now I would place it on the 'nice but going nowhere' end of the spectrum. That is my off-the-cuff response to your post, at 2am in the morning !! Back to bed now. Take care -- Mike

Subject: Its true Mike ! From: Loaf To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 03:23:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: its the 'going nowhere' element of the K package which kills the urge to inspect it... cos it doesnt stand up to inspection. Not these days. In my vague and rambling way I was coming round to the conclusion that the area worthy of inspection is the fringe of the warm fuzz - where it actually laps up against the culture, psychology and context of our psyche... but if you descend into the warm fuzz, then all is lost ! Very few ever came back intact... except for the exes who, as modern day explorers, fight their way out of the fuzz with the blunt shears of half-remembered logic. The storytelling analogy was partly from the realization that the content of what maharaji says these days is almost negligable... what has the effect is the use of words, the phrasing and the context. The content of his message does not bear inspection, but its effect upon his audience does. All the best Mike

Subject: Its dem Techniques! From: Bryn To: Loaf Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 04:27:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The techniques, they make you stupid. And if you already are stupid they send you to sleep. And if you are already mentally asleep they kill you. And if that part's already gone they render you one of the living dead! And if that's not bad enough you have to pay for the priv.and conspire to sell it to others. And ALL of this due to total lack of instruction. 'Are we not men?' 'No we are premies' . Good morning all. I'm feeling a little extreme today as the 'It cost me TWENTY FIVE YEARS TO FIND OUT' syndrome is biting. I console myself with notions of Karma, some of which are standing the test i'm pleased to report. Love to you Bryn

Subject: Oh BD... its very true From: Loaf To: Bryn Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:59:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I treat the techniques like a plunge pool now.. if ever I want to be 'still' I wizz through them in the wrong order. That way I avoid the eye of the dark Lord. Whatever happened to us bryn ? I feel weepy !

Subject: BD ... I expounded more in my Livia reply :0) [nt] From: Lof To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 04:18:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: meditation begins in the form of the master From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 04:17:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For 20 years part of you expected to feel like that whenever you heard the words of the master. We opened up a channel to him into our hopes and wishes. This is a big thing for those of us who stuck it out for 20 years or more. We surrendered to him and let him charm us but I haven't really deconstructed my actual connection with him yet because I am currently so indifferent to him. Your post was once again excellent, confessional, experimental and often uncovering new thoughts for me. I know I was complicit in the emotions of hope and joy and manufactured many of them myself. There is no doubt that it was fun to have someone to tell us nice fairy stories to soothe and lull us to sleep. This story-teller had one over most tellers of religious fairy tales though. He had a ''knowledge'' which most of us thought was our direct line to god. Just knowing in the back of our minds that he was the giver of the gift of the knowledge of god was enough for make us suspend all judgement. That whole god thingy is the key to his juju. That's why, no matter how much he has revised his message from the one he inherited from his father, he has never quite abandoned the promise of god and slips it in between the ''breath is precious'' stuff to this day. It's all about god so who would not feel nice if that's what you hope for? Belief may be relief but it's not a cure.

Subject: Barrrrrfffffff! From: New-Age Redneck To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 20:32:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did you have to quote that 'form of the master' stuff, PatC? Man, no class.... :) I just love it when he says something to the effect, 'breath is precious.' Well, there's a DUHHHHH! To air breathing animals, I'd say breathing is pretty important. Yeah.... yeah.... pretty important. What is this guy, the 'master' of the obvious? We thought this garbage was a deeeeevine insight? Everybody smile blankly and shake your heads up and down..... c'mon.... I'm not the only idiot in this crowd... c'mon, do it for me.... :) I wonder, has anyone made up a list of maraji-isms of the simplistic/obvious order? You know, like 'breath is precious'.... stupid-obvious statements like that? This could be cathartic, if we haven't (even if we make some of them up.... he he he). Here, I'll start with a paradox.... 'Life is like my Rolls....'

Subject: Re: Barrrrrfffffff! From: Bolly Shri To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 06:54:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Life is just a bowl of cherries I think that was in Spain 1978

Subject: Re: Barrrrrfffffff! From: AV To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 07:27:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: common sense is very uncommon anyone?

Subject: ''breath is precious'' From: PatC To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 03:39:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''I wonder, has anyone made up a list of maraji-isms of the simplistic/obvious order? You know, like 'breath is precious'.... stupid-obvious statements like that?'' I thought Rev Rawat bought his old saws from Hallmark or did I get that wrong and he writes the old saws for Hallmark? BTW He's changed his Monica er sorry moniker to Prem Rawat from Maharaji. You don't have to spell his religion ''maraji-ism.'' Maharajism will do fine. I was just wondering today how you got mixed up in this guru business. Talking to you on the Symposium has been like a breath of fresh air after having to watch my pees in queues (as we discussed b)) for the year and a bit since I first started posting here. It's easier enough to understand how I got mixed up in it - I was a flowerchild acid-head but you.....how the hell did you get mixed up in all this gurujism? I'd love to know your premie story. Please.

Subject: LOGO From: AV To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 16:00:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Picture this: web logo design team production meeting : M at table..centre , as in 'last supper painting'. Left; 6 design execs , collective thought bubble: ' jeez , it looks like tits!!!!!(biting hands to stifle laughs...) Right; 6 marketing execs , collective thought bubble: ' jeez, it looks like someones butt!!!!!!(stuffing hankerchiefs in their mouths to stifle laughs...) One guy (J.Udas esq) running for door: 'I'm outa here...' M: 'nice work guys.....cognac anyone??'

Subject: ROFL nt From: salsa To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 13:17:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: aha

Subject: rOFL nt From: salsa To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 13:16:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: LOGO From: JHB To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 09:28:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV, Just thought I'd reply to say that I enjoyed your post, and that you raise a serious point about the likely inability of those around Prem Rawat to constructively criticise him. We have seen here that premies have difficulty in seeing any fault in him. This must be true for those around him as well. I've just thought that maybe your scenario is wrong. Maybe the two groups couldn't even conceive of the logo looking like anything insulting! John

Subject: to JHB From: AV To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 13:13:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah, but you overlooked that 'trickey mind'.....I mean , if you stood next to a big shot at a corporate event, and they let rip with a giant fart, where would your inner (and mischievous) child be at that moment.......pee ing its pants, I reckon!!!

Subject: Livia's query from Life's Grating From: Grace? To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 11:29:25 (EDT) Email Address: gerry@don't do it.com Message: I stole it, so sue me... I was wondering, having been away from premies for a while now. Could any premies here tell me what their view is these days on the existence of 'grace' as a phenomenon? In the old days (I received Knowledge in 1972) Maharaji constantly referred to something called his 'grace', without which Knowledge wouldn't work. This 'grace' came from him. As an ordinary human being, I presumably don't possess a 'grace' which I can bestow upon other human beings. My interaction with other people only takes place through direct contact or through indirect methods of communication such as the telephone, writing letters or the internet. The premie view of Maharaji these days apparently is that he is a normal human being. He is no longer claimed to have divine or superhuman powers. Maharaji himself no longer claims himself to be anything other than an ordinary human being who is also a teacher of 'self-knowledge.' Fair enough. OK, the Knowledge consists of four techniques of meditation, which when practiced, can induce an experience of peace, a higher consciousness, 'the zone', or whatever you like to call it. In the past, this experience apparently occurred only because of Maharaji's 'grace'. Without this factor, the Knowledge was supposed not to work. Premies promise on receiving the Knowledge not to reveal the techniques. People keep this promise for decades. However, if Maharaji no longer claims to be more than an ordinary human being, which would then mean he can no longer claim to bestow any 'grace', why do premies still feel that the Knowledge would not work in exactly the same way without any belief or faith in Maharaji at all? If an ex-premie were to reveal the techniques to someone who wanted to meditate, what does a premie think would happen? There are two possibilities. (a) The experience of Knowledge would not take place. "B" The experience of Knowledge would take place. If your answer is (a), then you must believe that the 'grace' factor does indeed exist. You must then necessarily believe that Maharaji is more than human in some way. (He, however, no longer claims to be. How do you square this up?) If your answer is "B" then the grace factor does not exist. This would correspond with Maharaji no longer claiming to be anything more than human. If, then, Maharaji is not more than human, and grace does not exist, then why does he still insist that the Knowledge can only be passed on/taught/revealed by him? Why would any premie here believe that the Knowledge still only works when revealed in the above way? Why would any premie here believe that someone sitting down to meditate on the same techniques for one hour daily would experience something different to what a premie experiences? I am genuinely curious as to current premie views on this, and would be grateful for any well considered replies. If anyone responds with a torrent of abuse or cynical invective of any description, I will only draw the conclusion that he/she is incapable of logical thought. And if no one replies, there will be only one conclusion to draw. With regards, Livia

Subject: Benevolence From: Bai ji To: Grace? Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 18:35:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, My you're in fine posting form. Pretty powerful stuff that Grace. As I am in the process of exiting, I do not consider myself to be 'Stuck' in the past as some premie apologists have stated as an excuse for the 'old thinking' that forms the basis for many objections to Earthman Pig Sprawl (Prem Pal Singh Rawat) The indelible foundation that forms the basis of long term devotees and Pam's is this often unspoken indoctrination. I know this First hand. If you came along and received knowledge in the early eighties on, or were a fringe premie then you may have the excuse that You never were so deluded as to buy all that crap. But believe me, this sort of thinking was and is considered by those in the know (Pam's/Managers/Ceo's/ex-rateds Industrial strength church ladies etc)to be lacking in true understanding of what was/is really going on here. It's like when dealing with contractors in conjunction with an Event. You have your PC spiel to make it all look business as usual, no cult here. But underneath you are just tongueing for the helicopter to land and get that Darshan. Definitely Not explained truthfully to the uninitiated. (They wouldn't understand...) Grace has the equivalent effect of keeping you roped in to M. Carrot being the good shit that happens Stick being the withdrawl of same. Nasty psychological gymnastics are executed to maintain a lifetime of this. Fear Shame Guilt Low Self-Esteem are the Foundations for this type of Joy, Bliss and Devotion. The insidious thing is that premies still caught are like junkies in need of a fix. Without the yearly or six monthly injection of Darshan, they themselves admit that life is devoid of any real highlights. The practice of K held some intermittent tangiable experiences. Over all it was pretty much a non-event. The times that I sat for four hrs a day on a regular basis provided some equilibrium, but I am not sure that it wasn't equivalent to the 'Good Dog' syndrome, whereby I was freed from my feelings of unworthiness and the relentless obsession of remembering Him with every Breath and doing Enough to deserve Grace. 'Without the Guru (Maharaji/Prem Pal Singh Rawat?)we cannot receive Knowledge (self knowlege) nor achieve true discrimination. Without the Guru (see above) there is no salvation, for without His Grace we are as good as dead. Without the Guru we are in the hands of death, suffering and remorse.' Hans Yog Prakash 'Guru Maharaj Ji is such an ocean of Grace, what shall I say of Him? How is it possible to understand Him? No ordinary person can sing about the love within him, about the love of Guru Maharaj Ji; only a true devotee of Guru Maharaj Ji can sing about it. If you do not obey what Maharaj Ji says, what is the use of your living in this world? Rather you should die of shame! Now Guru Maharaj Ji has come. Whenever He came before, you did not accept Him. Now I have come again to reveal the Knowledge, and still you do not understand me. Why don't you realize? Why is this curtain of darkness shadowing you? Kaliyuga will come to an end and Satyuga will start and people will listen to me and act accordingly. Do you think it is a joke? The great leaders think that I have come to rule and yes, they are right! I will rule the world, and just watch how I will do it. Even the lion and sheep will embrace each other. Has there been such a king before? Krishna was not such a king. Rama was not such a king. There were lesser powers in Ram, there were lesser powers in Krishna, but I have come to the world with full powers. Accept my words, accept me. I will give you Knowledge. If you mistake my meaning, if you mistake a single word of what I am saying, I will not forgive you. Those who are shameful or bothered about social respect ask for forgiveness. I do not bother about social respect. I do not feel shy of anyone because I have entrusted the reins of my life to Guru Maharaj Ji. Therefore, dear premies, the time has come. See how peace will be established in the world. There will be peace on earth. That peace which disappeared shall prevail again. It will come, and once again the world will undertand. So listen to me and act accordingly. Bow down before Guru Maharaj Ji! Oh, blind humanity, you are like those blind men who tried to visualize the elephant by feeling it. You have become like a horse blinded by blinkers. You have been blinded so much that you are lost in illusion. The world has blinded you in such a way that the blinkers of illusion are now around your eyes. You have been blinded and are now lost in the circle of illusion. Love flows from the Lord who has given me wisdom; will He not also give me strength to establish peace on this earth? How will He not give? I have complete faith in Guru Maharaj Ji. And the tears that I am shedding on His anniversary are not because I remember Him, or because I feel sad. They are because of the power I carry with me. Right now, I feel such a power in me, I do not know where it has come from; I feel as if I want to shake the world. Soon I will leave my studies and spread the Holy Word of Guru Maharaj Ji throughout the world. How will the world not receive it? To every single child, I will reveal this Name. I will give you such a thing, such a Name, that you have never received before in your life. But come to me. Why do you hesitate? Mira did not hesitate. When she was given poison to drink and was told it was nectar, she drank without suspicion, so trusting was she in the Grace of Guru Maharaj Ji. If Mira had hesitated, definitely she would have been killed; but she was not at all troubled by pride or how her social position would be affected. She had sacrificed her whole life at the Lotus Feet of Guru Maharaj Ji, and this is why she did not die. The poison that was given to her became nectar as she drank it.' Excerpt from Peace Bomb satsang. Holy Fuck Batman! This all used to be music to my ears. I wanted to be that One True devotee amongst Millions of one true devotees. He doesn't even want to know what I am going through after Years of 100% Faithful Devotion. I finally got a Clue. Love Bai Ji

Subject: Re: Benevolence From: kg To: Bai ji Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 00:13:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember that 'splatsang'. It was a favourite that sent shivers up my spine. I wanted that boy to shake down the world with his grace. I wanted it to be true. It seemed that no one was saying stuff like that ever. But I had young inexperienced ears. If it were true it meant that I could be free. I would no longer feel lost. I didn't have to identify with the suffering in the world. I could believe that it's all 'lila' and there's nothing to do but smile and be happy. Some people can do that, some can't. That's a whole 'nother big discussion. To me M is the guru of greed. He appeals to a belief that people are greedily desparate to be saved. It makes me think of that expression 'every person has their price', the point where you go against your convictions and thereafter you have need to justify your turning point. I reckon Livia's question is spot-on. For me there's only one answer that doesn't send my head spinning like Reagan's on the Exorcist. He is full of it - pea soup. His veges are rotting big time. It's easy enough for me to work out why I thought I needed saving, but then why SSM? I gave away my responsibility. I believed. I did that much. But he begged, he cajoled, he demanded, he threatened... Despite the aspects of great beauty and promise in humanity and what's left of the same in the natural world, I see that things are none too healthy on the planet and I wonder if there is the distinct possibility that chunks of humanity are kissing the wrong arse. Maybe should be kissing our own arse goodbye. But no. It's time to be responsible and for me that means blowing the whistle on the lie.

Subject: The Toxic Cup of Devotion From: Lesley To: Bai ji Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 17:27:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Without the yearly or six monthly injection of Darshan, they themselves admit that life is devoid of any real highlights.' Hi Bai Ji, it's good to hear that strong voice of yours singing out. Welcome to the world where premies tell you you are a fool or worse for having believed stuff that they in fact still believe. It's pretty shattering, isn't it, to realise the perfidy of the Malibu Cuckoo. Good fun kicking that dirty feathered cowardly slob out of the nest, though! Much love, Lesley

Subject: Re: The Toxic Cup of Devotion From: Bai Ji To: Lesley Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 18:04:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dear Leslie, I am glad to hear that I am sounding strong, maybe my sanity is slowly returning after all! What a Rip-Off.... Love to you and Bill XXX

Subject: great post, Bai Ji From: gerry To: Bai ji Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:51:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excuse the cheerleading but that was a snappy post. The quote-that was the 'Peace Bomb' satsang, right? It's really quite frightening to think we believed this demented stuff. The part with Mira drinking the poison thinking it was 'nectar' is almost a Jonestown type prefigurement. I'm so glad Rawrat toned it down at least.

Subject: Hi Gerry..Thank you Sir. From: Bai Ji To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 18:42:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah the second quote was from the Peace Bomb satsang. I'm glad the Mira/Jonestown thing was evident. The thing that galls me the most, amongst Many mosts, is the insistent way that we are always to blame for any fuck ups, while He is the cornucopia of all auspiciousness. If Mira had doubted for one moment then she would have been killed..Her Fault. But as her surrender and Faith were so great she was deserved of Grace and lived..His Mercy. Fucked if you do and Fucked if you don't really. Either way you're drinking Poison. Reminds me of mentally retarded God worshipping, Mysogynist tribes who set a life threatening Trial to see if a woman has been unfaithful. If she lives , she is proclaimed innocent. If she dies, who cares she was a slut anyway. Sort of how I feel I was treated by M. Ostracised and abandoned to maintain the status quo. Years of berating myself when things didn't flow as I must not be surrendered,devoted,humble enough. At the same time having my valuable human feelings belittled and trampled on by grasping ladder climbing acolytes. combined with the Triple Lutz and Indy Grab/Sailfish of remembering Him with every breath and constantly praying 'In my Heart' for Him to keep me safe at His Lotus Feet for Ever. Phew it's tiring just trying to include it all in a sentence, never mind trying to live this dissonant shit for 28 years. So it's off to Psych Ward for a little while to have my neurones rewired. Where, by the way, I shall no doubt run into several other people claiming to be the Living Perfect Master. There's no escape really, they're everywhere,they're everywhere. 'Tis funny cos in life I would never humiliate myself with another human being this way. It is tantamount to being a boyband fan(atic) Unrequited,projected love/infatuation does not a healthy Real relationship make. How embarrassment! And any psychiatrist worth their salt would tell you that having a relationship with someone who is unavailable to you on every level (except the one in your Head/Heart)is what is called an unhealthy Disfunctional Delusion. Especially now that He is just he, a normal poison (Done in a NY accent, soft s) How can we have a magickal grace filled connection with him. Shot himself in the not so divine foot of clay if you ask me. Well that's enough of my wounded bitter tirade, fer what it's worth. I really just wanted to say Hi Ger and Thanks for being here, all. Love Bai.

Subject: Gee, Bai Ji... From: Cynthia To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 23:58:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wish you well in your temporary habitat. Please email me if you want to hear my good hints about how to survive it:) Your posts in this thread are poetry. Beat poetry real cool, Lady Bai. I'm not poking fun at you I feel so happy to read your anger and have the added pleasure of your gift with words. I had forgotten the story of Mira Bai. 'My heart burns a hole in the sun' Waiting for her Maharaji living in poverty every day. I adored that poem yet forgot the poison part. Hmmmm.... The peace bomb satsang was scary to read again. Not bad scary more 'holy shit I followed a fake live guy as Jesus come again and he's a son of a bitch.' I gave it my best shot and I was a good church lady ashram nun. I never broke my ashram vows I waited to see him. It's so puking sick. You sound good... Take care of yourself and remember you're the boss;) Love, Cynthia

Subject: Yes, Bai Ji is a poet like Lesley From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 04:30:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe the Aussie women have to become poets to handle the men like Catweasel, Cerise, Quiet et al. Poor old Mira Bai. The poison came before she was finally roasted alive in a hollow iron pillar surrounded by a bonfire. Some of those Hindu saints sound worse than Saint Catherine of Hungary who used to lick the sores of lepers. Ptuiy! Ain't religion grand?

Subject: What a great question! From: Michael Dettmers To: Grace? Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 09:03:09 (EDT) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: My experience of “grace” came most powerfully and consistently while doing service for Maharaji. During my many years of service, I was often confronted with what seemed like impossible situations. When all of my efforts hit a brick wall, miraculously an unexpected door would open which saved the day. I attributed that miracle to Maharaji’s grace. In time, based on countless such instances, my faith in Maharaji and his grace was so strong that I really understood what people meant when they said that faith could move mountains. By faith, I am referring to my confidence that I could overcome any obstacle with Maharaji’s grace either directly or through unexpected coincidences that I can’t rationally explain, but nevertheless occurred time and time again. That is why breaking out of a cult can be so difficult. On the one hand you have an experience you can’t deny, and on the other hand, you can’t forever sweep under the carpet the lies and deceit you also witness without living in unbearable tension and confusion. I have since come to a different understanding about the phenomenon Maharaji called grace. For me, and many others, it is a universal phenomenon that is the byproduct of focus, belief and commitment. When an individual or a team of people come together around a common purpose around which they are absolutely committed, focused and aligned, I have experienced that the same miraculous coincidences occur. Joseph Jaworski writes beautifully about this phenomenon in his book “Synchronicity: The Inner Path of Leadership.” Maharaji calls it “his” grace because he is the organizing principle, or energy vortex, around which all of his followers focus their attention. In truth, he simply tapped into a universal phenomenon and claimed it as his own. In doing so, he used this phenomenon to enslave others through his insistence that Knowledge could only be realized through devotion and surrender to him. If Maharaji were not so selfish, greedy, and ignorant, and if he were truly open to learning, he might have adopted what Jaworski refers to as “servant leadership.” This is conscious leadership whose primary purpose and intention is to help people realize their full potential so that they can make a positive difference in their own lives and the lives of others. But then again, that assumes that Maharaji has something to offer other that the privilege of worshiping him. Since he doesn’t, his only real option is to keep repackaging his same old racket.

Subject: Re: What a great question! From: bill To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 01:14:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Micheal, You said ''This is conscious leadership whose primary purpose and intention is to help people realize their full potential so that they can make a positive difference in their own lives and the lives of others'' I find the words 'full potential' to be a good nutshell term for the subjects I seem obsessed with. Not that I am sure I am ready to tackle the subjects, and they are related to your posts which I have planned to repost, the efforts to reach full potential have forced me to face some obstacles that seem to define the boundries of my 'full potential' possibilities. Pat C. said I seem pessimistic when I discuss this subject, and I had to check myself when he wrote that because, he WAS kind enough to give feedback, and he is insightful, I figure I had a tone of gripeing about the limitations, not that I think that is all that out of line ! The limitations ARE plenty troublesome, and also, imprison us. Well, that STILL sounds pessimistic ! But I am also looking for the positives in our dilemma. Sorry this post is so clipped, What I am building up to say, and I am ahead of myself, is that I cant find a way for us to make the level of transformation hoped for by movement you mentioned. They certainly get my vote for proposeing a smart course of action for us all to take, but my (not actually pessimistic!) analysis leaves me pessimistic that the limitations we are under will allow us to advance ahead like hoped for by the academic/visionary types that you mentioned in your posts. There, I said it, didnt know how or when I would. I know it is skimpy, but it is late, and I will fill in the details includeing excerpts from your posts in days ahead. Allow for gaps in the days ! By the way, your post above was interesting and helpful.

Subject: Re: What a great question! From: Michael Dettmers To: bill Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 09:18:42 (EDT) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: Bill, Please e-mail me at dettmers@gylanix.com Thanks, Michael

Subject: ok [nt] From: bill To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 17:01:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: But I like your pessimism, Bill From: PatC To: bill Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 04:50:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not all of us are born to be cheerleaders. I'm not unaware of the difficulties in life that you speak about. I actually do have a pessimistic streak. Anyone who knows me well will tell you that I can be very melancholy sometimes. I just don't like feeling blue all the time though and fortunately I have a short attention span :C) and something always comes up that makes me see things through rose-colored glasses once again. But I have a great deal of simpatico for pessimists.

Subject: and I like those rose colored glasses ! From: bill To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 17:17:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know, I would always get melancholy about 2 ro 3 days after smoking pot. If you smoke, that might be the melancholy reason why. One way out of melancholy perhaps is to live with more people ! A rough way out for sure ! But it makes me weave and dodge so much murphys law that I am kept too busy to have smooth slow melancholy, it is more of crashing highs and lows. well, the mix IS crazy here, 13 year old boy (enough said) !, 21 year old boy with bipolar and a new pit bull that I fought against having, I lost the fight over the dog to the 2 adult women here, one, an 80ish alcoholic mother in law that in a moment of weakness, and after a couple years of lobbying by my wife, moved in with us, and , a young possibly gay 9 year old. I call him my lean mean fighting machine fairy. (not out loud of course !) hey, whatever, he IS the best one here. Perhaps now you will applaud my pessimism as IT IS better than my other option, which is to be suicidal ! How about chiming into the bill/Mili conversation that might be happening up near the top. Always like your imput in any thread Pat C :)

Subject: Re: and I like those rose colored glasses ! From: bill To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 17:21:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: fergot to mention the 25 year old boy and his new bride, at least he has moved in with her now ! However with the 65% divorce rate folks are into these days, ooops ! there is that pessimism again !!

Subject: Re: What a great question! From: Bolly Shri To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 07:21:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: See also Manufacturing Consent, Noam Chomski's film on propaganda.

Subject: Re: What a great question! From: Jim To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:54:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: See also Manufacturing Consent, Noam Chomski's film on propaganda. --- Don't bother.

Subject: Yeah, but Michael From: Joe To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 19:29:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Michael, I came back from my self-imposed exile from the EPO world to read your very interesting post, which in some ways is similar to my experience, but I interpret it somewhat differently. In addition to the phenomenon of 'belief focus and commitment' that results in what sometimes seems as fortuitous or even 'miraculous' solutions to problems, it might also be that you had a certain level of competence and perseverence that allowed you to see those doors open and continue on until they did. Instead of giving yourself the credit, it went to the lotus feet. Like Woody Allen said, 90% of success is due to just showing up. Plus, the pheomenon of 'grace' and the way it becomes another form of cult mind control, is largely built on the cult of attribution in which positive events (either due to random occurrence or the effort of oneself or the love and caring of others) are attributed to Maharaji and his 'grace' and negative ones never are. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy in which Maharaji always comes out on top looking like a benevolent, loving and powerful master. The shear lunacy of this is something one only sees after becoming an ex-premie and seeing that 'miraculous' events and experiences are no less frequent after one has rejected Maharaji and his mythical 'grace' and, in fact, one sees that one's life experience and self esteem improve post-Prem because one no longer has to blame one's own mind for the 'down sides' and miseries of life that occur at least as often to premies as they do to anyone else. But what is so peculiar about the supposedly divine grace of the perfect master is that it is expended on something as minuscule as giving a high to his followers or giving them a nice 'experience' once in a while. One would think there might be bigger things for Maharaji to bestow that power upon rather than busying himself with letting the grace flow to give a nice feeling or a good result to a premie. But then maybe that power of grace is dong this for premies because he is making up for previous Perfect Masters being so distracted and stingy with the grace during the Holacaust, or the potato famine, or, say, the entire fourteenth century.

Subject: What a great answer, Michael! From: PatC To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 13:13:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rolf Dobelli writes: ''Joseph Jaworski was a practicing litigator when he learned about the concept of the 'servant leader.' Inspired, he left his legal practice and created the American Leadership Forum (ALF), which trains corporate leaders in using the servant-leader model. Synchronicty, which recounts Jaworski's journey, aspires to novelistic drama, and in fact, Jaworski describes the tale in terms of the traditional literary hero's quest. While not exactly the labors of Hercules, anecdotes in which Jaworski talks his way out of a mugging and meets his wife by passing her in an airport are entertaining, but less informative than the author might hope. The book contains a lot of New-Age jargon and collective-consciousness sermonizing. Nevertheless, for managers who want to be something more - leaders - we [...] recommend Synchronicity not as a useful how-to, but rather as a business leader's inspirational biography.'' If you and Dobelli could get past the New Age stuff, so can I. I will read it because I have experienced what you wrote ''is a universal phenomenon that is the byproduct of focus, belief and commitment.'' For me focus and commitment are like a flashlight and a machete which cut through the jungle of confusion. Needless to say, the only thing I believe in anymore is common sense. Joseph Jaworski www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1576750310/103-6558042-2899834

Subject: Re: What a great question! From: Neville To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 11:45:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Superstition and accident manifest the will of God.' --C. G. Jung These experiences of 'grace' are not unique to premies. I recall reading Tal Brooke's 'The Lord of the Air', which is about his discipleship with Sai Baba (and his ultimate disillusionment). There, too, there were instances of apparently miraculous grace. It seems to me to be a phenomenon associated with faith and expectation--perhaps a willingness to see the miraculous, combined with an inability to assess coincidences objectively. Whatever its source, it is surely responsible for convincing many people of M's divinity. Neville

Subject: Dear Mike and others From: AV To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 11:21:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's a very revealing perspective: I know so many instances from my own life and those of friends of unimaginable coincedences; When I started to question some years back, I was pretty freaked out; still am on a lot of levels as I had personal experiences of M in the early days which were truly magical, gentle and caring. My life was pretty much in turmoil some years ago, stories about M were starting to trickle thru', and I wondered why all the people I knew that were still close around to M were so WEIRD; no straight look in the eye contact, dismissive, apparently unable to say more than a few sentences without some direct or oblique ref. to something M said or did, often rude and prone to rabid arguments about such life changing stuff as whose house was suitable to show a video in ..(enjoying life????? when????) There were some friends who were really really sweet too, but I guess that is their nature.... Still I made the effort to get in touch, went to an event, which was beautiful in a way, as I got to see some very old friends who seemed OK with it, and that kinda re-framed my fears in a 'well,maybe its a phase I'm goin' thru' , but the magic really is still there' kinda way. I bought a video intendented as a 'soft approach' introduction from M, sat in his lounge in shirtsleeves, something I could give to friends (like.... what could I ever say without screwing up...). At first I felt all those familiar soft and cosy-toes feelings inside, then it was really odd, as the presentation progressed I thought, my god, he's just waffling!...then immediately felt this panicky sense of guilt for even THINKING such a dark thought. so I left it and came back to it again........same thing. It wasn't like I was sat there , poised to criticise, I really wanted it to be like it used to, rapt (and wrapped) in the familiar cocoon of 'grace'. It didn't happen, I was unable to get this thing out of my head that after the first minute or so,he wasn't saying anything, it sounded and felt so empty, and for me that was scary; what was happening to me? or M? or both maybe. I couldn't help but notice a statue on his mantlepiece behind him; of Don Quixote , chasing a windmill....there was something synchronous about that image , M, and my brain!! Later , I tried going to local events, but each time something odd happened, video cancelled, location moved, once the gearbox in the car exploded, and I was left at the roadside. In my mind, I figured that I was experiencing 'anti-grace'...some unseen hand keeping me from the lotus feet as punishment for my doubts, another (kinder) voice telling me to get my head out of this destructive assumption, maybe I was being protected from something that wasn't right for me. Eventually I made it to a video... I was quite distraught inside following a period of quite intense personal loss, and really wanted be open and benefit; I sat down and M was saying; 'it doesn't take long to make a tomato sauce, but it takes a long time to make a tomato......there was a very long pause, M was looking like he had just revealed some essential secret of life on planet earth......then he repeated it.......another long pause, small smile appearing at corner of mouth as if inviting me to experience some domino theory zen awakening......then he paused AGAIN for a long time, then repeated it a third time. I sat there like I was a walk-on actor in a very very bizarre movie....here was the man I had revered as THE EMBODIMENT OF TRUTH talking about tomatoes, and my life was falling about it's ears. Yes , it would be WONDERFUL if people could be instructed and encouraged to reach their full potential, were not here for very long after all.....yet so many premies seem stuck and dysfunctional...myself included in many respects. Is this because of 'cult mentality'?, I started to wonder whether practising K long term, (lets face it, they are yogic disciplines) without constant monitoring and one to one instruction, together with a careful evaluation of mental and psychological side effects, could actually be harmful in some way. What do you think? I thank the recent round of posts, there's been some very sensitive and caring viewpoints put forward, its soooo appreciated not to feel alone in this.

Subject: Methadone conventions From: Dermot To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 22:25:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....tomatos ....hahaha a couple of enjoyable, readable posts there AV..... straight from the heart as well. :) :)

Subject: Anti-grace and other animals From: Disculta To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 14:40:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV, Your post was so interesting that it actually got my fingers to move without my conscious control to respond. ;–) I was touched by your description of the sincere effort you're making to sort your way through the seemingly contradictory stuff that seems to be par for the course in being with, and then not with, the Lard. I loved your phrase 'anti-grace' and I could really relate. When I was leaving (lo these many years - 18 to be precise!) I went through a similar confusing experience of having a series of apparently significant and synchronous situations and events that were just like the train that drove me into the cult, yet now they were driving me out. For example, when I was on the inbound train, I was wondering around Amsterdam consciously and deliberately looking for 'truth' - having found myself mysteriously uprooted from home, on sabbatical from university, left my boyfriend etc. pulled by some attractive force that I couldn't identify. Since I had been raised by atheist physicists, I wasn't exactly beating down the doors of the spiritual masters either! A woman passed me on the sidewalk and I stopped her, because she was so radiant. I was trying to 'get it out of her' but she would only tell me that when I returned to England, I should go to 4 Alba Gardens. Since this was a few minutes from my mom's home, I went to visit my mom, and one morning I got up really early and walked all the way to 4 Alba Gardens. Twelve years later, in 1983, after full ashramic and married-fulltime-service immersion, a similar series of compelling events drew me away from MJ. Like you, I was strongly programmed by now to believe that this was my mind, and my 'doubt,' etc. But it was the same exciting feeling that I couldn't deny. I think one thing that helped a lot was a conversation I had with Loring Baker, a honcho/instructor I'd done a lot of service with. I was trying to get him to understand the new things I was getting into, which he was basically implying were all 'my mind.' I said, 'but Loring, the same feelings that brought me towards MJ are now taking me towards these new things.' He didn't get it apparently (since he's still in the cult I believe), but I heard myself and it really helped. I think what helped me a lot was that I was leaving for a combination of reasons: First, I was excited by many new things I was exploring that weren't Knowledge and MJ. And the people involved in them didn't seem to be suffering from the desperate 'unsaved' syndrome that we used to project on non-premies. In fact they were much happier. Palpably. Second, MJ started to put down the very things I was getting involved with. In retrospect this stupid cultocentricity on his part was the grace of God (or is it focused intent?) because it absolutely enraged me. Specifically - and I'm sorry to repeat this story if you've heard it before - I was exploring therapy and emotions and belief systems and ways to unravel and clear stuckness. Lots of us Miami premies were exploring this stuff in 1983/4 and having great, liberating experiences after years of suppression and cultic frozenness. Then word came down that Maharaji said he 'didn't want his premies mucking about in their own garbage.' It was really clear to me that he was completely intimidated by anything that didn't center on him, and also by anything that might confront levels of stuff that he definitely didn't want to confront - he was already an every-day-alcohol-user by then, although I didn't know it. Of course he didn't want premies doing therapy or other inner explorations. It doesn't take long to bust the illusory bs once you give yourself permission to feel how you really feel. I was working professionally with quite a few premies, and sort of half-in/half-out myself. In one week, I was asked to help with two suicidal premies. In both cases, they were going berserko because of the changes in the ashrams (I think it must have been the time when they were peremptorily closed). In one case, I actually had to get the knife out of a person's hand that they were threatening to kill themselves with. The biggest conflict for this second person was that they had just heard this pronouncement that MJ didn't want premies doing therapy. After that I got inspired to write Maharaji a long letter - 13 pages - challenging him to take responsibility for the effect he was having on his premies by closing doors by which they could get help when they badly needed it due to his actions. Since I had done service in the mail-answering office I knew where to send my letter, and sent it registered and never got a reply. This made leaving a lot easier for me - the combination of lots of really good new stuff, and the negative feeling I was getting towards MJ as I saw his real personality emerging. I didn't even know any of the really shitty stuff about him until a bit later. I think it's really good to find new experiences of any kind that are fulfilling while exiting. Life is overflowing with them, especially once you can stop lying to yourself about how blissed out you are, and that MJ is the real patent-holder on tomatoes. Thanks for sharing your great stories AV and all of you, love Katie Darling

Subject: Re: Anti-grace and other animals From: AV To: Disculta Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 16:21:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cripes, Katie, we probably tripped over each others smally shoes in the hallway of Alba Gdns! I remember that 'inbound train' stuff too; Like walking into the bookstore to buy 'Rolling Stone' magazine and walking out with a copy of the Upanishads (!) In fact I started spouting spontaneous 'satsang' even before K, all about how there was a primordial energy from which the universe sprang and how all the saints in all the scriptures described it blah blah blah...a regular little Mr. Natural (Robert Crumbanand) . . . Boy , there sure wuz something going on then...I guess we had some really Golden days. Last local premie vid. i went to, there was about half a dozen people or so, all looking , well, phased. A sort of , 'don't interrupt my connection, I couldn't bear to leave THIS PLACE' vibe. Anybody coming thru' the door for the first time may well have thought they'd walked into a methadone convention... Yet those opening shots on TPRF home page are painful for me, I know how deep and real that feeling feels, and I also know how suicidal it can make you feel to be shut out from 'THE LORD'S PRIVATE PARTY' thats why I pray to God to show me what's real around here...you can't always trust feelings: How many of us have fallen for someone we believe to be our eternal soulmate / lover /angel-friend.....then years down the line they turn into psych-bitch-from-hell, or maybe they were all along; or someone you had discounted and taken for granted, but had condemned as 'un-spiritual' actually turns out to be the only person who is really there for you when the doo doo really does intercept the air-conditioning??? Funny thing, human nature, and our so-called 'instincts and intuition' That's the hardest part, knowing what to trust. That's why I love nature.... a tree can't f**k with your head (unless of course you're Mr. Unlucky Lumberjack of the Year...) Oh, well, more later. Must get back the the sauce 'alla Napolitana' Ciao Bambino...

Subject: Keep this for your Journey, AV From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 13:20:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I certainly could relate to everything you said and I'm sure a lot of us longtime premies can. Thanks. This was on the nose: ''I wondered why all the people I knew that were still close around to M were so WEIRD; no straight look in the eye contact, dismissive, apparently unable to say more than a few sentences without some direct or oblique ref. to something M said or did, often rude and prone to rabid arguments about such life changing stuff as whose house was suitable to show a video in.....'' Amen.

Subject: Two graces From: Mike Finch To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 11:16:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Mike, good post as usual. I think, however, there are two different meanings to the word 'grace' as used by a premie. The first is as you and Crispy describe, a sort of good luck coincidence when things seem to go your way, or a synchronicity when some group with a common purpose finds that things just fall into place, and the common goal is achieved in a seemingly miraculous way. Like you, I often used the expression 'that was Maharaji's grace' when something particularly fortuitous happened. But I think the sense that Livia used the word, and certainly the sense that I did in my posts just below, is different. It is that Knowledge will only work if you have that connection with Maharaji, which we also called grace, but meant by it some mysterious factor X that originated only from Maharaji, and which make the 4 Knowledge techniques work - rather like a bit of yeast that will make an otherwise dead lump of dough rise up. It is in this second sense that you get to what it really means to be a premie. A premie might or might not experience or believe in Maharaji's grace as an outside influence, rearranging the world around them; but if they did not believe in Maharaji's grace as an inner connection making the Knowledge alive for them, then I don't think you could really call them a 'premie', as I have stated below. -- Mike

Subject: Um, I think there were five actually From: Jim To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 13:56:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1) The grace by which the Lord of The Universe, Maharaji, created, sustained and destroyed everything. Everything. Nothing happened without it. Not a leaf moved, etc. 2) The grace by which Maharaji made Knowledge Knowledge and not merely some techniques one could read in a book like Zen Bones or get from another, i.e. false, guru or even a rogue premie of all things. Maharaji embued his official conduits (mahatmas a/k/a initiators a/k/a instructors) with this grace and it was automatically running until he specifically cancelled their service. This is the one Livia's asking premies about. 3) The grace that was always waiting, kind of semi-automatically, like a reserve supply or something, and which would kick in once someone exerted the right kind of effort, did the right service/satsang/meditation dance, followed the Master's agya, put out that effort, demonstrated that sincerity, just really practised Knowledge properly. This notion of grace was of some sort of over-drive function or something that kicked in, like I say, semi-automatically, providing one was otherwise driving properly. This was the grace that would enable you to climb over the wall even though it's 600 hundred feet tall and you're just a lowly ant or the grace that would get you through the sound barrier even when it seems like you're flying as fast as you can and your jet's shaking like crazy, etc. 4) The kind of grace that the Master awarded as a boon or special gift just because he was all love and wanted to. No rhyme or reason, really. Like winning a lottery. 5) The kind of grace wherein the Master hears the abject cries for mercy and forgiveness from the now terrified, dessicated and frightened devotee who really deserves nothing but who, thank God, did one right thing in his life and that was find the right Master to begin with. The devotee cries for help and, even though he hardly deserves it, the Master, who is all love, will come, yet again, to tow his crazy ass out the ditch or whatever. He won't be billed for this Grace but he may, if he remembers, drop a little something in an envelope next time he has an opportunity to express his appreciation and gratitude. These all overlap, of course, but I think they really are five distinct facets of the same mythical power.

Subject: Are you sure its the 4th?.... From: la-ex To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 19:43:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to the Heller Book Of Premie Grace, the 4th grace is: A boon or special gift, for no rhyme or reason....like winning the lottery.... Hmmm....with all due respect, I would think that the 'fan belt satsang' would only be an example of the '4th grace', if we are talking about the 'big maha' definition....in other words,it might be an example of grace#4, if 'the big M' was providing it.... like you said for, no rhyme or reason, just because he's the lord of love, and nothing moves without his grace etc....etc... However, if one takes the 'little maha definition', then it might not be an example of grace #4.... I might suggest that grace #4, be divided into #4a and #4b.....one would indicate that the 'BIG MAHA' was at work, and the other one would be a 'little maha' type of grace (could also be known as 'I'm just a speaker' type of grace).... 'THE BIG MAHA' grace#4 would be reserved for the really big, cosmic type of stuff, where the poor premie actually finds the fan belt on the side of the road, seemingly supplied to him by 'that power'... 'the little maha' grace #4b, would be reserved for 'speaker' type of grace, or 'regular guy' type of grace, where perhaps the speaker gves you a little extra bliss on the side, after a doobie or two and a glass of cognac at the rez... So, in the interests of keeping it straight, should we expand grace#4, into #4a and #4b, to account for the 2 different Mahas?... What do you think Jim? Should we open it into a forum discussion? Could eDrek shed any light on it?

Subject: Or is it just satsang, not grace? From: la-ex To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 19:47:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On second thought, is 'fan belt satsang', just a certain type of satsang, and not any type of grace at all? Hmmm....not sure....

Subject: Are you sure its the 4th?.... From: la-ex To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 19:42:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to the Heller Book Of Premie Grace, the 4th grace is: A boon or special gift, for no rhyme or reason....like winning the lottery.... Hmmm....with all due respect, I would think that the 'fan belt satsang' would only be an example of the '4th grace', if we are talking about the 'big maha' definition....in other words,it might be an example of grace#4, if 'the big M' was providing it.... like you said for, no rhyme or reason, just because he's the lord of love, and nothing moves without his grace etc....etc... However, if one takes the 'little maha definition', then it might not be an example of grace #4.... I might suggest that grace #4, be divided into #4a and #4b.....one would indicate that the 'BIG MAHA' was at work, and the other one would be a 'little maha' type of grace (could also be known as 'I'm just a speaker' type of grace).... 'THE BIG MAHA' grace#4 would be reserved for the really big, cosmic type of stuff, where the poor premie actually finds the fan belt on the side of the road, seemingly supplied to him by 'that power'... 'the little maha' grace #4b, would be reserved for 'speaker' type of grace, or 'regular guy' type of grace, where perhaps the speaker gves you a little extra bliss on the side, after a doobie or two and a glass of cognac at the rez... So, in the interests of keeping it straight, should we expand grace#4, into #4a and #4b, to account for the 2 different Mahas?... What do you think Jim? Should we open it into a forum discussion? Could eDrek shed any light on it?

Subject: Grace major and grace minor From: Jim To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 23:19:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: La-ex, The question might be, did Maharaji consciously do the fan belt thing or was that residual grace accessible to any who had the devotee's easy access to the semi-automatic reserve we all experienced so many times? Likewise, the flip side of these benedictions were the Lilas, or tests, major and minor. That is, Lila Major would be Maharaji consciously testing you. Lila Minor would be the 'universe' testing you on his behalf. Something like that. Was it murky? Hell no, it was spiritual!

Subject: You understand Gurujism better than Rawat.:C) [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 18:55:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Bbringing it all back home, Jim From: Dermot To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 14:22:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That sure brings back a lot of memories....all those graces....now we're all alone and graceless.... ....and don't go into one about my recent Israeli posts or anything :))

Subject: Yep, good analysis] From: Mike Finch To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 14:07:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yes, grace and lila perhaps? [nt] From: PatC To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 13:22:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Two graces...yep Mike From: Dermot To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 12:53:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A Premie over on LIG (Isabella)has just testified to the grace of which you speak. An incompleteness of the K and it's techniques without the 'connection' with M. Cheers Ddermot

Subject: more thoughts re grace From: Crispy To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 12:03:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My previous post was singly-aspected; but I also recognize the other two contexts you, Livia and MD have mentioned as well. MD also touched on the kind of 'group dynamics' that happens in working organizations - I see it every day at work. Team thinking, team support and unification of purpose seems to facilitate an additional dimension in results. I find myself grasping for vision, or restraint maybe, to not lose myself totally in the momentum. Maybe I'm touching on something else.. Maybe Michael could expand if he's referring to something else more specific? As for your and Livia's question re does the Master's grace give the techniques validity/speciality/authencity? I can only share what I discovered myself AFTER exiting. I'll probably get jumped on here, but here it is. I stopped meditating after exiting to sort out my feelings about it all, but sometimes found myself when sitting quietly or lying down, falling into/going with some of the techniques - each time only one for maybe 10 minutes. And what I felt from them was exactly the same as before exiting. I also felt the same in a recent buddhist meditation session. And it sounds, by description, similar to what other meditators experience. This showed me the experience, should I still want to feel it, was always with me, mine, and will always be mine to do with what I please. I don't need to continue as a premie, sign up with another master/teacher, let alone stay at you know who's feet to validate it - I can claim it as my own. I could've walked with the techniques the day after my K session. Could it be that this grace was a term used in hindu bahti yoga to lock students in devotion to a master? And it was never necessary? It was just another superfluous concept flowing from the ‘land where concepts flow like rivers'? I choose myself to take off that gas mask; the air is clear and uncontaminated as is without belief in master's magic manipulatively lopped on top of it.

Subject: Re: more thoughts re grace From: PatC To: Crispy Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 14:15:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I first exited I told my closest and longest premie friend and she said: ''I'm glad you aren't giving up K but are you sure K works without M - the master?'' I answered ''yes'' at the time but have since changed my mind. K is the techs PLUS M. Bhakti yoga is all about igniting love for the master in the premie. This love makes the experience of K happen. Old wondering saddhus in India who do not have a guru use cannabis to ignite their love because they too know that without love meditation is dry and boring. But, in the end bhakti yoga is for peasants whose lives are bleak and ugly and the guru is the only source of love and beauty in their miserable lives. I prefer wine and opera myself.

Subject: More grace regarding thought...(a new gace?) From: la-ex To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 09:10:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All this talk about grace...kinda makes me long for the good ole days, when goomaraji's grace, a honey oat bar and a spiffy 5th hand suit from the basement of divine sales in greenwich village was all you needed to get by and to get high... It's very interesting to hear these different 'grace discussions'... I think that a 'Q&A' section, maybe combined with a 'Now and Then' section would be very illuminating in helping decontruct the 'premie paradigm'.... BTW, where did 'fan belt satsang' fit into all of this? Was that a 6th type of grace, or a second type of satsang?

Subject: Um, that'd be No. 4, I think :) From: Jim To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:56:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Um, that'd be No. 4, I think :) From: Crispy To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 15:10:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They all overlap to a certain degree, it would be hard to place the fanbelt type in any one particular. by 'fanbelt' grace, I was referring to strokes of basic good luck, the kind that premies loosely thanked GRACE for when things went their way or worked in their favour while winging it. i.e. ' don't worry if it doesn't look feasible, we've got grace on our side or 'haven't got my flight booked, don't have the money to pay for it, don't know where I'll be staying, but by grace, it'll all come together' i.e. the most IDIOTIC context of all... , can't believe I believed in it, if even for only the first year or so...

Subject: Re: more thoughts re grace From: Crispy To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 16:28:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi PatC , yea, I'm following. It's too bad premies forget that the feeling state, their love, is/was always their own. Meditation may be a way to reach that state, but premies forget it's not the only way and Mj has no exlusive ownership of it. Have to say, it's not my favorite way any more either. To put it more strongly, bhakti yoga has actually fallen off the bottom of the list of desirable methodologies altogether. I've always felt love for something or someone or other at different times in my life, aside from K. The feeling state I've always had. A lot of other things besides meditation put me in touch with my own feeling state, my humanity, my ability to love and understand. And yea, something as simple as a good ale and soul-purging music will do it for me, too. A few other things as well ;) It's such a relief to be able to enjoy life untethered by the master/student dysfunction. But ‘falling out of love' with Mj I hope has taught me a bit about ‘projection'. It's a real art to see the world as it really is, without projecting through glasses colored by emotions, beliefs and hopes. Cheers to ya' PatC - hope you're doing well. Crispy

Subject: Hi Crispy Critter From: PatC To: Crispy Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 18:53:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm doing fine, thanks and it certainly looks like you are too. I'm glad you chose to add your voice to the forum. The joint is jumpin'.

Subject: fanbelt grace From: Crispy To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 10:36:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Someone also posted awhile back on this - what exactly is 'grace'. For premies, it was a minor miracle of sorts that helped you in a certain purpose, like a stroke of good luck, and sorely, mistakenly, attributed to Maharaji. Example: driving along a road, my car breaks down, but I happen to chance on a discarded fan belt on the side of the road that will replace my defective one perfectly. A delusion of thinking the world is revolving around me? or the stars are aligned in Crispy's favour that day? But what about the poor guy off whose car that lost fanbelt fell? Maybe he's the one in the fatal accident you read about in the paper the next day. Thanks Michael, I've just added Jaworski's book to my reading list - sounds like it would be an interesting read... Cheers.

Subject: Premies dont have views on M+K.nt From: Bryn To: Grace? Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 04:36:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Livia's query from Life's Grating From: Mike Finch To: Grace? Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 17:07:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good post Livia. For the past 30+ years a premie has, in my opinion, been defined by this: someone who believes that for the Knowledge techniques to work, you must be in receipt of grace from Maharaji. This alone explains most of the behavior of premies around Maharaji; for if this fact is true, you will do practically anything to keep this channel of grace open, or to get more of it somehow. Like Jim said below, I think your questions are unanswerable. I look forward to seeing a premie try. -- Mike

Subject: IMO not so Mr. Finch From: Dep =) To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 20:19:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good post Livia. For the past 30+ years a premie has, in my opinion, been defined by this: someone who believes that for the Knowledge techniques to work, you must be in receipt of grace from Maharaji. This alone explains most of the behavior of premies around Maharaji; for if this fact is true, you will do practically anything to keep this channel of grace open, or to get more of it somehow. Like Jim said below, I think your questions are unanswerable. I look forward to seeing a premie try. -- Mike --- Sorry Mike, I beg to differ. You say that, 'a premie believes that for the Knowledge techniques to work, you must be in receipt of grace from Maharaji.' What? Call me an anomaly if you wish, but I never believed in that superstitious childishness and I know others who feel the same way I do. The experience is a physiological reaction to specific meditation techniques. That's all it is! What are we here, a bunch of irrational 16th century Indian peasants who believe in witchcraft? I stuck around for the community and for the inspiration, and that's all. =)

Subject: Re: IMO not so Mr. Finch From: Livia To: Dep =) Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 03:56:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dog, Out of interest, when did you actually receive Knowledge? Because in my experience, just about everybody who was around from the early 70's onwards except those on the fringes maybe, who would tend to drift off in any case, believed in the existence of Maharaji's grace. That's what kept us there. It's what made so many of us attempt to dedicate our lives. And as Mike Finch says above, it's the long-held belief in it that makes it so hard for so many premies to disengage. I put that post over there to see what premies make of the discrepancy between the idea of Knowledge not working without Maharaji, and Maharaji's new identity as an ordinary person. I wanted to see if any of them could see the inherent contradiction, but so far not a single premie has answered. Actually I might post it again in a little while, and ask you lot over here not to post underneath it (please!!!) I think it'll look a lot more effective if it just sits there, alone and unanswered. Speaking for itself, maybe? Love to you all, Liv

Subject: Catweasel and Quiet are in Amaroo From: PatC - What premies, Livia? To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 12:58:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Catweasel and Quiet are probably in Amaroo. They both disappeared last week. In fact they are probably sharing a tent. David Roupell went to Amaroo soon after. Yes, for some reason most premies post from Australia. Interesting isn't it? The only premies left are the Nonymouse thingy who insults people, usually Jim, and Isabella who is debating with Jim on LIG and whom I think has balls in more ways than one. SFJim, Carlos and Cosmic Traveller are all Hindus and they probably think your post is blasphemous. You may have to re-post it soon after they all get back from Amaroo when they're all sweetness and light before it wears off after a week and then they go back to being weasels again.

Subject: If you want to be formal then it's Dr. Finch From: Nottm Bunny To: Dep =) Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 02:18:14 (EDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Dog, You are most definately in a minority on this one, certainly with vintage premies. It is M's 'true identity', his divine power and grace which are the key to why thousands of otherwise intelligent premies have been mentally and emotionally locked into him for years. Even for the doubters and the waverers it is one of the final big fears: 'What if M really is the Lord after all?' Of course they still believe it. Why else were penniless premies still trying to get to Amaroo, making an effort they have never invested in the quality of their living standards? They could wait for the video if inspiration was all they required. No, they want the grace of Darshan above all else. What else could justify M's living standards, behaviour etc, etc. If you look the evidence is endless for this premie mindset. Bunny

Subject: Re: If you want to be formal then it's Dr. Finch From: Dep To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 15:17:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bunny, Yes, I know I was in the minority. I actually felt guilty for not going along with the crowd. I actually thought there was something wrong with me for not believing all the grace and Lord stuff. I thought that maybe I was too cynical, not appreciative enough of K, too egotistical, self centered, lacking in faith, bad. They were the difficult times for me. I guess I put M under a pedestal, along with the rest of the human race. And when people would talk about getting a job, or finding a $20 bill on the ground, and say it was because of Maharaji's grace, it was like they pushing my laugh button. How could God be a human being? If God takes human form, what happens on other planets? On the planet Zerko, is God 500 feet high with 3 purple egg-shaped heads the size of Greyhound buses? IMO god is the formless energy within us all. IMO the best image for God is 'nothingness.' I've been a Buddhist all along and only recently found out. Thank God!

Subject: Get real From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 16:26:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, You certainly entertained the belief that Maharaji was indeed God in Human Form just like the rest of us did. To your credit, you didn't throw yourself in whole hog like many of us but you were completely open to the possibility that Maharaji was the Lord. You're full of shit if you're trying now to say that even then you thought there was nothing special about the guy, that he wasn't the avatar and that such things don't even exist.

Subject: Re: Get real From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 22:53:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, You certainly entertained the belief that Maharaji was indeed God in Human Form just like the rest of us did. To your credit, you didn't throw yourself in whole hog like many of us but you were completely open to the possibility that Maharaji was the Lord. You're full of shit if you're trying now to say that even then you thought there was nothing special about the guy, that he wasn't the avatar and that such things don't even exist. --- Jim, You are right, I entertained the belief that Maharaji was indeed God in Human Form and I was open to the possibility that Maharaji was the Lord. I thought there was something special about the guy and in fact still do. But come on, GOD! The force that created billions of galaxies showing up in an 8 year old kid. You gotta admit, that is a bit of a stretch.

Subject: Re: Get real From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 23:11:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What are you trying to prove here? That you knew all along that M was lying when he said he was God? Forget it.

Subject: Re: Get real From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 09:30:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe he thought he was God. So did a lot of other people like David Koresh, Werner Erhard, Sai Baba, Sat Pal ect.

Subject: Perhaps Dep never was a premie From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 03:51:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A day or so ago I read where he said that he never went to any of the big festivals and in fact hardly had anything to do with Rev Rawat unless he came to wherever Dep was living. He never lived in an ashram. He hasn't said if he ever got involved in doing service. He has said he never gave money and hardly ever meditated. And just a while ago he said he was always really a Buddhist and does Vipassana. I think Dep never was a premie. So, what are you doing here, Dep? Perhaps you should be on a Buddhist Vipassana forum since you don't seem to have been a premie well not like us mere mortals were you know and you sure aren't adding much to this discussion except for a few smug New Age sermons. Since you so coyly dropped a hint that you were born in Africa and then snubbed my request for more info even privately by email, I do not have the time of day for you. You are a pompous windbag and a phoney. Not mensch. Bugger off you drip.

Subject: Re: Perhaps Dep never was a premie? From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:31:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A day or so ago I read where he said that he never went to any of the big festivals and in fact hardly had anything to do with Rev Rawat unless he came to wherever Dep was living. He never lived in an ashram. He hasn't said if he ever got involved in doing service. He has said he never gave money and hardly ever meditated. And just a while ago he said he was always really a Buddhist and does Vipassana. I think Dep never was a premie. So, what are you doing here, Dep? Perhaps you should be on a Buddhist Vipassana forum since you don't seem to have been a premie well not like us mere mortals were you know and you sure aren't adding much to this discussion except for a few smug New Age sermons. Since you so coyly dropped a hint that you were born in Africa and then snubbed my request for more info even privately by email, I do not have the time of day for you. You are a pompous windbag and a phoney. Not mensch. Bugger off you drip. --- Jeez Pat C, Wait a minute! What the hell has got into you? Let me just address a few falsehoods in your letter. Where did I say I never went to any of the big festivals? I was there, and Jim will vouch for me. He saw me there. Where did I say I hardly had anything to do with Rev Rawat unless he came to wherever I was living? Where did you hear this crap? Was it from Cadaver? True I never lived in an ashram and didn’t do much service, but where did I say I never gave money and hardly ever meditated? I am a meditator and have always valued the experience of K. I only just realised in my heart of hearts that I was really a Buddhist and I now do Vipassana, K and some mantra. I am a premie in the sense that I am a lover of TRUTH not a party line. I am a 'no name brand' premie, the best kind of premie, because I respect people on other paths. Hell I’ve even had civil discussions with a woman who is a Jehovah’s Witness. So, what am I doing here? Good question. Maybe I’ve outlived my stay. But some people like my smug New Age sermons. I was not born in Africa. I was born in England and was raised in Africa. And I’m sorry you feel snubbed by my not e-mailing you, but I want to protect my anonymity. I do live with card-carrying premies you know and an e-mail is really an e-postcard. If I e-mailed you the CAC guys could easily track me down and embarrass my family. My wife does not want me posting here. Sure I’m a pompous windbag but I like to think I have integrity. And whenever I see someone attacking Knowledge I will always step in and defend the experience. And your last comment “Bugger off you drip,” was a bit much don’t you think? Have you been drinking grain-based alcohol? Maybe you should take your own advice and switch back to wine. PatC, if you want me to get lost and never post here again, just say so, and I’m gone.

Subject: Am I supposed to believe this? From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 13:28:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''If I e-mailed you the CAC guys could easily track me down and embarrass my family.'' Do YOU even believe that? Is there some new software that can do that? That excuse was also insulting. What happened, Dep, is that I always thought that you are a drippy excuse-maker but didn't say anything until you left Rawat. Now that you are no longer handicapped by Maharajism, you're fair game. Perhaps I got some facts a bit wrong but I got one thing right - you think you are so much more spiritual and cleverer than us because you didn't fall for Rawat's crap the way we did. You yourself have protested thus for months. You say you are here to defend Knowledge. Fair enough. Go for it. Good luck but you're such a fuzzy and unoriginal thinker that I doubt if you will insprire too many peeople. Was I drunk when I wrote that last night? Maybe. I had had a glass of wine. In vino est veritas, I guess.

Subject: Re: Am I supposed to believe this? From: Dep 8) To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 13:56:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You think you are so much more spiritual and cleverer than us because you didn't fall for Rawat's crap the way we did. I didn't fall for it completely, not because I was more clever or spiritual but perhaps because I was more cynical and paranoid. And BTW e-mails do get around and people can tap into other people's computers. Remember the CAC attack? I hope this excuse is not too fuzzy or unoriginal for you. And even Gerry liked my sermon, not to mention Christina.

Subject: Re: Am I supposed to believe this? From: Livia To: Dep 8) Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 08:06:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, you're saying you didn't fall for it completely. Did you say anything at the time, then? Because I knew premies way back (a handful) who also didn't quite believe he was the lord, but they also had the courage to come out and say so at the time. If you didn't say so at the time, why not? In fact, I have a very close friend who genuinely stopped believing he was the lord long before the revisionism started. He still meditated and went to programmes, though. I was of the view that if he wasn't the lord, then the Knowledge couldn't have that extra special quality that my friend still attributed to it. We used to argue about this a lot, because I still believed he was the lord. Knowledge being special = M being superhuman. I think you're afraid of the embarrassment of admitting you believed it just like nearly all of us did. Come on, come clean - did you admit openly that you didn't believe he was the lord, and if not, why not? Livia

Subject: Re: Am I supposed to believe this? From: Dep 8) To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 11:57:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, you're saying you didn't fall for it completely. Did you say anything at the time, then? Because I knew premies way back (a handful) who also didn't quite believe he was the lord, but they also had the courage to come out and say so at the time. If you didn't say so at the time, why not? In fact, I have a very close friend who genuinely stopped believing he was the lord long before the revisionism started. He still meditated and went to programmes, though. I was of the view that if he wasn't the lord, then the Knowledge couldn't have that extra special quality that my friend still attributed to it. We used to argue about this a lot, because I still believed he was the lord. Knowledge being special = M being superhuman. I think you're afraid of the embarrassment of admitting you believed it just like nearly all of us did. Come on, come clean - did you admit openly that you didn't believe he was the lord, and if not, why not? Livia --- Livia, I did not say much about it at the time because I didn't want to rain on anyone's parade. Most people seemed happy with the 'lord' concept. Why make waves. I personally found the concept alien but was willing to give others space to experience K the way they wanted. Why not? Whatever turns you on, live and let live . . . chacun a son gout. I either didn't have the courage or the desire to make a scene about it. It seemed kind of irrelevant too since the meditation worked, so why bother. The techniques stand on their own without concepts. I had also done TM for about a year prior to K and had got used to relating to meditation as a technique. The TM people BTW went out of their way to remove all 'lord' concepts from the meditation. They present it as an exercise or discipline and have been quite successful in the meditation business. What with his construction company, his aruvedic herb and medicine company, astrology and jewellery business, advanced courses and his universities, I think at this point the Maharishi is worth billions. I went to programmes to see M, to hear satsang, and to meet friends. On several occasions I did admit openly that I didn't think the concept of lord was relevant or necessary for K to work, and that it was antiquated, alienated most people and in my experience (with my non-premie friends anyway) actually hampered propagation. And because I was strongly censored for saying so, at one point even banned from giving satsang, I eventually learned to shut up. Maybe that's why I can't stop popping my chops here on EPO, because of all those years of enforced silence. Hopefully I'll be able to shut up soon. Jim and PatC will be pleased. =)

Subject: You answer Livia and snub me - again! From: PatC To: Dep 8) Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 04:38:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Hopefully I'll be able to shut up soon. Jim and PatC will be pleased.'' Bullshit! I can't get enough of you. I just wish to god it was something original and brave not someone else's words and ideas. Honest, Poochie, I don't want to shut you up. I want you to start shouting instead of whispering the words of old dead farts.

Subject: Re: You answer Livia and snub me - again! From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 11:20:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Hopefully I'll be able to shut up soon. Jim and PatC will be pleased.'' Bullshit! I can't get enough of you. I just wish to god it was something original and brave not someone else's words and ideas. Honest, Poochie, I don't want to shut you up. I want you to start shouting instead of whispering the words of old dead farts. --- PatC, hate to disappoint but I'm not that creative.

Subject: Fair enough, Dep From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 13:30:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''...hate to disappoint but I'm not that creative.'' As long as you understand that I have no desire for you to ''shut up'' or go away. Just the opposite in fact but of course I won't shut up either and will nag you whenever you start shovelling all that old religious shit.

Subject: You like Khalil Gibran don't you? From: PatC To: Dep 8) Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 14:09:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rev Rawat used to quote this bit in his Gibran days. Remember the bit about (I don't remember it too well) there being two cups of life or something like that? A cup of sweetness and cup of bitterness and how most people drink all the sweetness first and then have to drink all the bitterness in one go? And that we should always drink a little from each cup as we go along? Well, I gave you only sweetness till now. I'm going to give you a really hard time for the next few months. :C) You said: ''And BTW e-mails do get around and people can tap into other people's computers. Remember the CAC attack? I hope this excuse is not too fuzzy or unoriginal for you.'' Yes emails get around but they usually go to the address to which they are sent and no one can get into my computer as I have a firewall. No I don't remember the CAC attack at all. I blocked it out after my business was attacked because they put all my personal info on it. I dont know if your excuse is original but it sure is fuzzy. You really should email me. The only bites you'll get from me are megabytes. Okay groan. I hate puns too.

Subject: Re: You like Khalil Gibran don't you? From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 23:31:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC, Firewalls are crap, especially for a well-funded bunch a fanatics like the CAC folks. Please understand that I prefer to stay anonymous and speak only on EPO. BTW it was Tanganyika. And no, I don't particularly like Gibran. I'm returning to my roots and reading more Alan Watts. You know the old C of E. Check out this Alan Watts kick in the ass from The Book On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are. 'Because an individual is now so largely defined as a separate person caught up in a mindless and alien universe, his principal task is to get one-up on the universe and to conquer nature. This is palpably absurd, and since the task is never achieved, the individual is taught to live and work for some future in which the impossible will at last happen, if not for him, then at least for his children. We are thus breeding a type of human being incapable of living in the present -- that is of really living. For unless one is able to live fully in the present, the future is a hoax. There is no point whatever of making plans for a future which you will never be able to enjoy. When your plans mature, you will still be living for some other future beyond. You will never be able to sit back with full contentment and say, 'Now, I've arrived.' Your entire education has deprived you of this capacity because it was preparing you for the future, instead of showing you how to be alive now. In other words, you have been hypnotized or conditioned by an educational processing-system arranged in grades or steps, supposedly leading you to some Ultimate Success. Nursery school, kindergarten, elementary school, secondary school, university, graduate school, family raising, business, profession, first sales promotion meeting, sales manager, vice-president, president, and then retirement, that really ultimate goal of being able to sit back and enjoy the fruits of your labours. But when that day comes, your anxieties and exertions will have left you with a weak heart, false teeth, prostate trouble, sexual impotence, fuzzy eyesight, and a vile digestion. And then you die.' Sad isn't it? This is what happens when you live alienated in your ego, chasing the carrot. Meditation helps you connect and be here now. Here’s another one. 'Idolatry is not the use of images, but confusing them with what they represent, and in this respect mental images and lofty abstractions can be more insidious than bronze idols.' =) =) =) =) =) =) =) =) =) =) =) =) =) =)

Subject: Oh god, Dog. You asked for it From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 04:35:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: See, I think Jim is a saint for trying to save scorpions like you. You have the subtilty of a sledge-hammer and won't know what the hell I'm saying there; will miss the double irony and not even notice the joke. I don't have the patience to argue with you or any sort of motivation. I think you are an arrogant, smug and ignorant man who thinks you have some special spiritual knowledge that us poor egotists don't - that we are floundering in our minds and never get to understand and accept the joys of being a human being. Do you honestly think that you are enjoying life more than Brahms, Einstein or Britney Spears? That you know something that they don't? Most arrogance is a direct result of ignorance. It is you are floundering. If you are so enlightened then DO something enlightening for the human race. Your words are not that inspiring. They are simply the result of turning your spiritual smorgasbord of Buddhism, Maharajism and all your other religions jisms into your own special cosmology and yours is boring but so was my personal religion, cosmology, spiritual concept. Oh, I thought it was facinating and would bend anyone's ear who would listen. One day, if I have the patience, I will write a confession to you which will include a description of my cosmology up until about a year ago. If anybody here agrees with me that you are arrogant because you think you've got all the answers, just wait until they see what an arrogant idiot I was. Like you I really thought that I knew what was what and had a special knowledge that others didn't. Before you come back at me and say that I don't know what I'm talking about, take this into account. I meditated for two years on three of the techs before I got K and then did the techs for the next 28 years. I can count the number of days that I did not do it on two hands. I've always loved it. I still do it and still enjoy it. What it is for me now simply is relaxation. I feel exactly the same thing that I felt before I left M but I don't think about it with his spiritual concepts or the concepts of Alan Watts or Buddha or anybody else. I feel nice and relaxed thanks and I don't need to say anymore about it. You however think, as I did up until a year or so ago, that you're experiencing something that others have described in spiritual terms - soul, god, the primordial vibration whatever. How do you know? How can you ever know what anyone else is feeling. You're assuming that everyone else wants to feel what you're feeling or even that they can. Feeling is not thinking and can't be put into words. If it could we would compare notes the way we do with thoughts. But we can't. Poets have struggled since Homer to put feelings into words. Painters have sometimes succeeded and musicians more often. Rawat packaged (he was following a long Hindu tradition) a little revivalist religion - feel good, satchitanand, truth is the consciousness of bliss. It's no different from snake-handling. The latter also get very high in the snake churches. It's all religion but anand/happiness isn't the truth and it isn't god. It's just happiness/bliss. Nothing else. I say that you are unoriginal because all you ever do is use Rawat's Maharajism or other religious stuff to tell us that you are in touch with your soul and that us poor egotists are trapped in our minds. Who the fuck wants to listen to that crap? You sound like a New Age Oral Roberts. Perhaps you should try working as a strip-o-gram guy. You'd make a lot more people happy than you do by preaching to them. I said ''you asked for it'' because I was trying to hint to you tactfully that I could say this to you privately but, since you insist that this public forum is the only way you will communicate with me, I let you have it. You're being awfully silly and making a lot of assumptions. Maybe you were lucky enough to have never been ''in the cult'' as we were but it sure sounds like you're in a cult of your own creation right now. Want to start from square one? BTW Tanganyika is now Tanzania as I'm sure you know. I'll check out the Watts book you recommended but the bits you cited sound boring. I've heard of it but dimissed it because it sounded like the same old time religion - you're gonna die so get your tits in a tangle, tremble with fear and repent. Of course the New Age version of ''repent'' translates to ''be here now'' or ''don't worry be happy'' or ''remember your breath.'' It's never something sensible like ''Go to your public library and check out The Blind Watchmaker'' or ''read Plato, Shakespeare and Locke'' or simply ''get an education.''

Subject: Wow, Alan Watts .. where can I find that? From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 23:46:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, This sounds like an incredible discovery. I know I read a book by some other Alan Watts which was also called 'The Book: The Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are' but that was decades ago. I read it at York University for my 'Man in Search' class. The final exam was an essay answering 'How Should We Live?' based on course materials. I drew a picture of a guy sitting on a toilet and underneath wrote: John Blazina Now I've seen ya' Sitting in the loo John Blazina Does it mean ya' Like to take a poo? John Blazina was my tutorial instructor in the class, not the prof -- he was some big shot humanitarians guy whose name I can't remember. Anyway, I was one of two people in the entire section to get an A. Great book, by the way.

Subject: Re: Wow, Alan Watts .. where can I find that? From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 00:23:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, This sounds like an incredible discovery. I know I read a book by some other Alan Watts which was also called 'The Book: The Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are' but that was decades ago. I read it at York University for my 'Man in Search' class. The final exam was an essay answering 'How Should We Live?' based on course materials. I drew a picture of a guy sitting on a toilet and underneath wrote: John Blazina Now I've seen ya' Sitting in the loo John Blazina Does it mean ya' Like to take a poo? John Blazina was my tutorial instructor in the class, not the prof -- he was some big shot humanitarians guy whose name I can't remember. Anyway, I was one of two people in the entire section to get an A. Great book, by the way. --- Gee thanks Jim, Shock Treatment anyone!!!!

Subject: THREE LEGGED STOOL ANYONE? From: AV To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 04:13:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't remember the exact wording , but M presented for along time (and recently, to the best of my knowledge), the image of a three legged stool, the legs being M, the 'student', and K. It was something like; The Master and the Student without K, is just like a religion based on faith alone, but no experience, The Student and techniques of K alone is like a cold science / empty, and the Master and knowledge alone is like 'the best kept secret in the universe'..... (I put the last bit in quotes 'cos I remembered that well, the rest is approx..) Hence the image of the three legged stool, each need to be there to keep it upright, else it falls over..etc. etc. I mentioned before on the forum that I listened to an old tape of Yogananda.. (feeling freaked and in need of something to make sense of all that is going on after 30+ years of following a prescription to realisation ..) He talked about 25% student effort, 25% guru's help and 50% God's Grace.....it was kind of comforting to hear the Creator's name mentioned after a long leave of absense...it was always implied that M WAS 'that being'...thus only HE was needed alongside your own efforts to make K work. Whichever way you slice it, there seems to be a neccesity to have the revealer of the techniques embedded into your life's path to make the experience 'come alive'. I am always keen to read experiences of those who never bought heavily into M, but have practiced K with good effect over the years. I have more to say on this in response to OPIE'S post above, later on this. There are things we learn in life that are intinctive, walking etc. Other skills require a teacher, reading etc. There is no shame in accepting the long term role of a teacher for K, but a Master implies that he is the master of that subject. If you needed a tooth pulled, you wouldn't be bothered if the dentist was having affairs or driving expensive cars, you just wanted the bad tooth OUT! But a Master of TRUTH, of INNER PEACE, you would maybe expect (and excuse me if I sound old-fashioned here), his personal life to reflect the values attributed to the practice of K. What has been so utterly DEVASTATING for those coming here, is to learn about M's private behaviour and how it pisses on the bonfire of reasonable expectations. So polite question ; taking all to really intense stuff out of the picture for a moment (extreme wealth, Jagdeo, etc).. Just as a person, divine or not; would it be a requirement of the role of MASTER to exemplify the state of being he promises K will let YOU achieve in his OWN life; or is he like the dentist, skilled at a specific task which has no moral interface into his own behavior?

Subject: Re: THREE LEGGED STOOL ANYONE? From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 04:53:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just as a person, divine or not; would it be a requirement of the role of MASTER to exemplify the state of being he promises K will let YOU achieve in his OWN life; or is he like the dentist, skilled at a specific task which has no moral interface into his own behavior? Shri Hans Ji Maharaj said as much; I found the quote on EPO and posted it here once. I'll go and find it again and post it below. I doubt Maharaji would say his father was ever talking out of his hat. Love, Liv

Subject: Re: IMO not so Mr. Finch From: Mike Finch To: Dep =) Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 21:58:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The experience is a physiological reaction to specific meditation techniques. That's all it is! Well, it may be so, but that is certainly not the belief of a premie. Of course, there are several definitions of what exactly a 'premie' is. The most obvious one is that a premie is someone who has been shown the four techniques of Knowledge either by Maharaji directly, or by someone who has been authorised directly by Maharaji to do so. A question for you: If a person was shown the four techniques of Knowledge by someone other than Maharaji, and that someone had not been authorised by Maharaji to do so, would the person who now had the 4 techniques be a 'premie' ? Let's assume it was well taught, in other words that the unauthorised teaching was as precise and complete as the authorised. If you say 'yes', then you are using the word 'premie' in a sense that is quite different from what Maharaji or his followers mean by it. Over the years I have encountered several scenarios where a premie gave Knowledge to others without Maharaji's permission, and Maharaji has made it quite clear that the recipient of the Knowledge techniques in those circumstances is not, in his eyes, a premie - in fact that person would not be deemed to even 'have Knowledge', since although they know the techniques, they do not have that connection with the Master etc which makes them premies and have Knowledge. Either you know this, or if you don't you are so far away from the mainstream of premiedom that your opinions are just your opinions, and carry no weight. And yet if your hypothesis is correct - that the experience is a physiological reaction to specific meditation techniques. That's all it is! - then a person who picked up the Knowledge techniques from someone without Maharaji's authority, provided it was well taught, would be in exactly the same position as someone who learnt the techniques from Maharaji or his delegate. I personally believe that this is the case, but certainly neither Maharaji, nor any paid-up follower of his, would accept that this is the case. -- Mike

Subject: Don't whitewash the past, Dog From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 20:55:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know you and I know the community you were in and I know that, at best, you didn't know for sure what to think. None of us did. We were all here and there, shifting around from time to time, on a spectrum of faith. Yes, you too. Of course, you, like many marginal premies did what you could to stay at the far end of the spectrum but you didn't know for sure. That's why you went along because you just didn't know. That's why you sat through all that heavy, heavy shit we endured. All that late 70s crap, those '19 Day' programs. Those marathon satsang retreats. You and me, bud, in the same satsang hall .Hell, sometimes the shit was even coming out of my mouth, but you were listening! :) I'll grant that you obviously gave your doubts a lot more room than us ashram losers but there's no way in a million years that you could ever persuade me that you did not believe in the myth of 'grace' etc. No way, Jose!

Subject: JIM, SPEAK FOR YOURSELF From: Reality Check To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 00:42:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey you, Your impoverished existence as a premie is YOUR history. There are plenty of people whose truth is much closer to Dep's, thankfully. Your lack of depth on any topic is astounding. Good job Dep, glad to hear a honest perspective on the topics of Maharaji and Knowledge. I look forward to reading of your posts.

Subject: Get a name or get lost, stupid cult coward From: Jim To: Reality Check Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 11:12:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who do you think you are? Obviously no one you're too proud of. Dog was fudging the past and he admitted it. I know because I know Dog, lived with him in the same small community for years. Yes, there are plenty of people who would whitewash the past like Dog tried to do. Funny, isn't it?

Subject: Re: Don't whitewash the past, Dog From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 21:43:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know you and I know the community you were in and I know that, at best, you didn't know for sure what to think. None of us did. We were all here and there, shifting around from time to time, on a spectrum of faith. Yes, you too. Of course, you, like many marginal premies did what you could to stay at the far end of the spectrum but you didn't know for sure. That's why you went along because you just didn't know. That's why you sat through all that heavy, heavy shit we endured. All that late 70s crap, those '19 Day' programs. Those marathon satsang retreats. You and me, bud, in the same satsang hall .Hell, sometimes the shit was even coming out of my mouth, but you were listening! :) I'll grant that you obviously gave your doubts a lot more room than us ashram losers but there's no way in a million years that you could ever persuade me that you did not believe in the myth of 'grace' etc. No way, Jose! --- At its height, I believed in grace maybe 20%. But then again I didn't go to any 19 Day programs or attend marathon satsang retreats like you did. In fact I only went to satsang when I wanted to. Even when they were saying that if you jumped off Maharaji's boat you would be attacked by sharks, I was joking around that that was shit. I have always believed in God, a personal God. Maybe that's what saved me. You are right! There was a spectrum of experiences around M at that time. Don't think of yourself as the standard. I know people who received K, practised for two months, and then went back to the bar. You were in the ashram at the extreme end of the spectrum, while I was 3/4 of the way over at the other end. Just reading your post now gave me an glimpse of what you went through. Whoa! But looking back you always seemed pretty happy, at least in the mid 70s.

Subject: Re: Don't whitewash the past, Dog From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 21:53:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I won't quibble over numbers with you. The point is that you were whiewashing the past. Don't.

Subject: Re: Don't whitewash the past, Dog From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 21:59:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I won't quibble over numbers with you. The point is that you were whiewashing the past. Don't. --- I was telling you my experience of the past. Is that whitewashing?

Subject: Yes, succinct, clear and unresolvable [nt] From: Jim To: Grace? Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 11:51:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I feel sorry for Maharaji From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 07:20:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Really, I do. Bolly Shri down below said there were some negative aspects to being a con artist like Maharaji. These include not knowing if people really like or love you. I read that and felt sorry for him. I could just imagine him thinking:- Do they really like me or is it just the meditation, or is just my good looks, or is just my money, or is just my figure, or is it just because they believed me when I said I was God? I may not be liked or loved by as many people as Maharaji, but at least I know that those who like or love me really do. Poor Maharaji. John.

Subject: Sorry? Pity? You're joking, right? From: Tonette To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 12:03:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah well, the beauty of non-verbal communication. How can you feel sorry for someone who has shown his TRUE self? Maharaji is everything he thought he was and MORE. He's exactly where he wants to be after spending the last 3 decades acheiving his station. And he has more than his quota of friends in the form of deluded devotees who just think he is just great, to this day. I doubt if the man (only by gender) has any trouble sleeping at night. No, I don't feel sorry for him and I don't feel sorry for those PAM's who should know better and still help him disseminate his lie. I don't feel sorry for his wife. I don't feel sorry for his adult children. I don't feel sorry for Ira Woods. Nor Randy Proudy. Ect., Ect., Ect. You want to know who I do feel sorry for? Not the semi-adults who enrolled in his knowledge experience; the premies but the children of said premies. Especially the children born in the 70's and early 80's. Those are the most undeserving and innocent victims to me. Tonette

Subject: I'm over it now:) From: JHB To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 13:39:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was just a fleeting moment of universal compassion:-) But seriously, you're right about the children, especially those who accepted the conditioning. John.

Subject: Interesting observations, John From: Nigel To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:34:14 (EDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: You could take that one further where M asks himself: given the fall-off in donations and membership in recent years - some of my most loyal devotees among them - how can I be sure that anybody will like, love or respect me in the near future..? Even if he is financially secure, I think there might be a desperate social insecurity/inadequacy which will remain until he finally renounces any claim to being special and allows the world to assess him on his own merits, pure and simple. But 'feel sorry for'? For me, that is pushing it a little - at least until he does the right thing by those he has exploited and conned over the decades. If he publically admits some responsibility for perpetuating his messianic deception and acknowledges the damage arising he will be lucky to retain the affection of more than possibly his nearest and dearest, I reckon. But, as you say, he might at least then be able to know for sure that affection is genuine.

Subject: My difficult with pitying the guy From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 10:50:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Nigel, Aren't you supposed to be shagging or something? I have no idea what that means, by the way, but didn't Moley say you got a job recently as a shagger? Sorry, it's a little murky but I remember ... oh yeah, that's it, didn't the two of you get a contract as shaggers? Am I pronouncing it right? Shagging, right? Something to do with english universities or something? (Hm, or am I confusing you with 'quiet'? Sorry, all confused. Never mind). ANYWAY, like I was saying, it's one thing to sympathize with someone's pain but it's another altogether to feel sorry for the pain that they would feel if only .... If Maharaji were actually conscious of the ugly trap he's in, yes, I'd have some sympathy. Put it this way, if his 'plight' were dramatized in a one-man play and Maharaji was mouthing all these pathetic, drunken guilt-drenched soliloquies, I'd feel something, I'm sure. Like watching Albert Finney as Nixon, perhaps. But Maharaji's still enjoying his ride and I bet he finds more than enough ways to enjoy it daily. It's pretty hard to feel much for him in that case, besides anger, that is.

Subject: Re: My difficult with pitying the guy From: Jerry To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 11:02:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like watching Albert Finney as Nixon, perhaps. That's funny, Jim. Who would you have play Maharaji? Was it you who suggested Gary Coleman a couple of years back? That would be a good one. Somebody also suggested Herve Villaches (sp). You know, the guy from Fantasy Island. 'Da plane! Da plane!' I think he's passed away, but if he was still alive, he'd be my choice, too. I agree about pitying Maharaji. How do you pity somebody who's sitting on top of the world happy with the scam that's made him rich? Not me. But yeah, if one day his conscience gets the best of him and he regrets all the wrong he's done, and publicly admits it, then I could offer some sympathy. Not until then.

Subject: Danny Devito as Maharaji From: Jim To: Jerry Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 11:14:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know if I first suggested Coleman or not. We've done this a few times already -- it's always fun. But isn't Danny Devito a natural? I mean, either him or Russell Crowe.

Subject: Sure, I'll do it From: Danny DeVito To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 12:33:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I might be available. I understand the movie would include lots of up close and personal work with a bevy of blondes. Plus the cool action sequence with the bicyclist in India, and the flashback sequence where I Throw Momma From the Train. No makeup needed. us.imdb.com/EGallery?source=ss&group=0161083&photo=M-35.jpg&path=pgallery&path_key=DeVito,+Danny

Subject: Re: Sure, I'll do it From: Mr. Rawat To: Danny DeVito Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 08:00:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pete Postlethwaite is Satguru Judi Dench is Marolyn in Lord of the Universe not by Tolkein Written by God See it now at all good cinemas

Subject: By the way, this is excellent [nt] From: Jim To: Danny DeVito Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 12:24:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: How 'bout this (late) contender From: cq To: Danny DeVito Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 12:17:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Liberace! www.bobsliberace.com/archive/photos/80s/80image/80p12.jpg

Subject: Cool Krishna drag! LOL, cq From: Liberatin' Ace To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 13:45:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Liberating Flying Ace = Liberatin' Ace = M at 60 in revival Krishna drag. LOL, cq!!

Subject: Greetings From: Amaroo crew To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 06:12:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Greetings from all the happy beavers at Amaroo. The weather's great with a little rain to dampen the dust. All the usual geeks and freaks, saints and devotees. AC

Subject: Re: Greetings From: Salam To: Amaroo crew Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 23:12:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So am curious. What's been going on at Amaroo for the last few days? or is that my imagination? Don't tell me I missed something, did I?

Subject: same old, same old eh ? From: Loaf To: Amaroo crew Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 06:42:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder if he will ever sing again. We can only pray.

Subject: Re: same old, same old eh ? From: Follower To: Loaf Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 07:00:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hope so

Subject: Oh Glorious Field of Joy ! From: gerry To: Follower Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 19:20:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am pleased with Knowledge Alice from Miami writes of the field of joy she has uncovered. I am pleased with Knowledge and with the field of joy that comes with its giver. I love the ability to quote Maharaji's words: 'The remote chances of a boy born in India, meeting people in Australia, and in South America, and North America, and Europa and in Africa. Remote at best! But we have met...in the presence of that master you can feel love.' Indeed! While looking for fulfillment in this world, I waste an incredible amount of precious and limited time. Ooh! I am so humbly grateful that his quote reminds me: 'Even in your darkest hour I will not abandon you.' I want and I need that. Folks, I proclaim that I found my field of joy! There is a place within me that I can go to be in peace and happiness. With sincere gratitude, I swear I didn't change a word...

Subject: Re: Oh Glorious Field of Joy ! From: Salam To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 23:14:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hey Gerry, that's too funny logo up there. hahahahah

Subject: thanks to all From: CPG To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 23:52:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: who took the time to respond to my messages of last week. I think I am kinda checking out of here. Its been a very liberating feeling to check out thoroughly all of the allegations made against my teacher, to look at which would bother me if true, seperate others experience from my own. I never doubted the experience; that I know is real and I will always pursue. I felt it would be curteous to let those who dialoged with me know where I am at. I feel I pretty completely checked out the material on EPO, asked questions and thought a lot about all of your thoughtful replies. As I have said from the start most of the 14 points don't bother me. There is probably at least a kernal of truth in most; probably many are exaggerated or at least colored by other peoples values which are different from my own (eg. citing cigarette smoking as some kind of sin). I think many of these points bother those who expected him to be god-like; if he is accepted as human most could understand or forgive some of these minor personal weaknesses. The early statements re; god-in-a-bod- In those old videos i still see a little kid, one who grew up immersed in that indian culture that accepted the kinds of statements he made until he grew up. I never really bought the literal translation of some of those statements; thinking about it now I don't even really understand what he was trying to say. To me they are statements reflecting another culture that I don't know and can't pretend to understand. When I try to relate it to how I grew up understanding god/jesus, i realize what i believed as a kid doesnt make sense to me now either. it all short circuits for me there, as i realize i know he is special to me and certainly human. I believe and know that god is in all of us and my theoretical understanding stops there. As far as M denying previous statements, I can interpret some of those archaic statements in a couple of ways, some more literal than others. If some of the quotes here are accurate it does seem M hasn't fully addressed what exactly he meant then, but to me it doesn't ring of outright deceit . This really got me thinking but in the end I know the experience is real and this issue doesn't seem important to me. I see him as an indian kid who has slowly weaned himself from the tradition of his culture, trying to remove cultural trappings from his message as he evolves and grows himself. The two serious (to me( allegations were the cyclist and Jagdeo. The cyclist issue was enlightening to me as I already expressed. It seems the lot of you accept one guys allegation at face value. No one has tried to confirm. After the reams of replies I received from previous posts everyone went silent on my analysis of this. Either some of you thought twice but were afraid to post any questioning, or dismissed me out of hand. Either option says to me there is no serious investigation and discussion going on here; this is soley a trash-fest. I felt a little bit 'had' at this point because i came here wanting to know the truth and I don't think that is what most/any of you are about. Anyway, on the cyclist, at the worst case, if accurate as told, Rawat was guilty of a moral weakness in leaving the scene of an accident that wasn't his fault. This on its own is very disappointing but not fatal to my practicing knowledge. One little embellishment on Dettmers part-that instead of leaving, he stayed and did exactly the right thing by staying and provided a generous settlement to the family-would be an alternative that would still explain his reluctance to announce this to the world, as I am sure your new headline would be ' rawat finally admits to covering up killing'. It is equally likely the story is a complete fabrication. Nothing here at all; certainly nothing to abandon my teacher for. Jagdeo is the most disturbing issue because i believe Jagdeo did commit those crimes, and if so they did happen while he was with M. But there is absolutely no evidence of a 'coverup' or complicity or involvement in his crimes. I think in the absolute worse case he heard about the fondling incident -inexcusable but not yet rape-and put security on him which was inadequate. As someone mentioned, if we only knew then what we know now about child molesters...but we didn't 20 years ago...society in general didn't act as swiftly as it does now. I think the truth is probably more likely as Harry expressed- this didnt come to light until 20 years later. To try and imply M somehow condoned this behavior is ridiculous. As far as M compensating the victims; he didn't do the crime. Theoretically I agree it would be nice if he did pay the victims, but the reality is if he paid one person there would be a line to Mexico of alleged victims just as unverifiable asking for payment. He would be financially wiped out before the rest went away, and I am sure this has not escaped those bent on his destruction. If evidence ever comes to light that shows malice or criminal behavior by M in this matter I will be greatly disturbed and reevaluate my relationship with him. I won't do that at this point based only on baseless accusations. The remaining issue important to me that I don't feel I have exhausted is the CAC atttacks. When my friend returns from Amaroo I intend to see what he knows about this, or others if he doesnt. Somehow I have a feeling there is another side to this story. But if the attacks occured as reported, and I believe it, someone did some serious wrong. To believe without evidence that M ordered this I believe is silly. I could see some overzelous premies doing this thinking they are helping him when in fact they are doing the opposite. I hope they pay for it. I want to find out more about what happened because at the least I don't want to have anything to do with working with people who were involved in this criminal and immoral behavior. I can't think of many actions on these ex's part that could warrant a reaction such as this. One thing I have noticed is that a lot of you post here quite consistantly, and on other forums which i have briefly checked as well. While some of you have been respectful with me you seem to resort to insults of M and rehashing of 30 year old incidents. Noting the amount of time I spent here in the few days I posted, I have to conclude a lot of you spend a whole lot of time on here in what is negative activity. I understand the hurt and pain some of you feel, but it makes me cringe to realize so much of your time is spent on negative activity , no matter how justified, instead of something positive for yourself. Negative behavior to others can't help but influence your self. One last note- consider how many of your fellow ex's you are equally insulting with your fat jokes. I wish you all the best and that you are successful in finding fulfillment and happiness in your lives. Patrick and Chuck- I do appreciate your offer of dinner, and If you would still like I will ask Bill of Ric where your restaurant is and stop by and say hello sometime. BTW, I would never have invited someone not actively involved in K to the KIT, although ironically it was the most democratically run group event I have every participated in. Cheers to all CPG

Subject: Re: thanks to all From: CPG To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 22:06:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: wow, cool, all these responses...got busy again with work so i haven't read all but will. A couple quick things, more later; I am so sorry if i sounded insulting Tonette, I really didn't mean to be or thought that I had. I was speaking from personal exp; I have had to go up against people before, it is inherently negative, and I found personally it drained me and I had to turn away often and focus on something positive. There I go giving unsolicted advice again, one of my recurring faults. I do know a little of many of you now and I see lots of value-gawd even in Marshal. Many misunderstood me about Jagdeo..I don't downplay his crimes at all, or downplay non-rape molestation...I have 2 kids for gods sake and a good imagination. Was trying...never mind its not important. Ugly all around. I do think M should take some responsibility. Can't draw a conclusion at this point as to what that should be -yes i will keep monitoring, i know it aint over. But haven't seen anything from Abi's dad at all about what M is doing or what he said. Can't find info either about current status of Jagdeo although there have been reports of his indictment. I'll be asking around about this too. Think fella; what would a brainwashed guy even be doing here.. Oh man...that one guy figured me out...hope he doesn't uncover my role in that JFK thing too... I realized how my posts and others have no lasting importance as I watched my posts rapidly disappear to the depths here. Tip for other spies- to have any effect you have to post constantly. Pat- wouldn't invite someone not active with K to a KIT because if you aren't practicing there is no reason to go and learn about teamwork etc. Yeah the premise was a little weird to me...I'd been invited to trainings before and skipped them. It was actually pretty coolfrom a group dynamics point of view- the fascilitator stepped back after the group decided on ground rules, then the group of 70 continued without a leader of any kind, and it worked great; really efficiently. But that was really just a comment about a democratically run group which was a first for me, around K or anything else. Does anyone here really take Jim seriously. Here I go pissing people off again but he reminds me of a fascist...best defense is an offense rght. Don't hold your breath on that Leaders reply there buddy. They must bbe having a good laugh over you. That was only meant for Jim...I find his approach very transparent. I have absolutely no disagreement with Pat and others who leave for reasons that are just personal differences from my values or needs etc. Same as most of my friends who just cant relate to having a teacher or have no need to go inside. or whatever else it is..big whoop, we still have fun together. More later cheers

Subject: CPG, please, you're not making sense. From: Tonette To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 09:39:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Couple of things if you are still game for giving me a reply. M taking responsibility in some way shape or form for Jagdeo? How about restitution to the victims in the form of heafty checks? Seems like an easy route to me especially when you factor in M's resources. Abi's dad? Besides not being the one who was raped, he is a premie. You'll not see him posting here among other things. Tips for other spies? Lasting importance? Kinda sarcastitic don't you think? Everyone has an opinion and the cool thing about this forum is that you are entitled to your speculation. As far as your importance, I think you are regarded here as very curious and were replied to here with mostly sincere and well-thought out posts. As far as Jim is concerned, I admire the guy. No your comment didn't piss me off. However, from what I have seen here regarding Jim's tenacity and attention to this forum, his participation (M didn't invent this word BTW), his inability to waver on issues concerning M, you ought to appreciate the fact that there aren't a bunch of snivelling, whinning, ex-premie's here. People who do not and will not sugar words in order to avoid a confrontation or hurt feelings. Feelings are what got you into the cult hook, line and sinker. Feelings are so transitory, it's your mind and logic that allow you to function. You are pretending to yourself that you are 'looking at the issue' of all that M has done and is. Nope, you're not. You are not able. You are playing a game with yourself in order to preserve your dignity. That's understandable. Rationalize and twist the facts so that you do not have to admit the truth. 21 years is a big investment of one's life after all. 21 years of empowering a charlatan to influence your life. No, I do take Jim seriously. He is quite quick to the chase. And from looking myself to other forums and from what is posted here to him, I am sick of the never ending troll posts. In fact, it is quite transparent there is an all out campaign to this agenda. Call it a mini CAC attack; Mission Statement: we tried to shut him up and we failed, let's just post anonymously with insults and no further dialog and try to discredit him. That's what's transparent. Anyway, unimportant, insignificant, CPG (joke there), good luck. Have fun raising your kids. And I will say this one more time, be careful. You are in a cult and history has shown us cults are not good for your health. They are dangerous and M is no exception. I enjoyed your posts and your mostly gentle replies. Feel free to drop in any time. Tonette

Subject: What's THAT supposed to mean? From: Jim To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 22:44:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anyone here really take Jim seriously. Here I go pissing people off again but he reminds me of a fascist...best defense is an offense rght. Don't hold your breath on that Leaders reply there buddy. They must bbe having a good laugh over you. That was only meant for Jim...I find his approach very transparent. I don't know what you're saying in general terms. Perhaps you can explain? Fascist? What the hell ...? But as far as Leaders goes, you've lost the plot, I'm afraid. I no more think those guys are going to get back to me or do anything further than you do. But so I tried. What's the harm in that? You know, it WAS possible that these guys were actually sincere and responsible. There were always lots of reasons for being skeptical about that, none greater than the article itself. But what the hell, eh? I contacted thm in good faith and, as you know, they have since stonewalled me and broken the simple promise of sending me the whole piece. What exactly do you think they're laughing about? That I'd be so stupid as to expect some accountability from a magazine? A little, um, er, leadership perhaps? Your cackling rings very hollow, dude. Very.

Subject: Re: thanks to all From: Happie Frenchie To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 15:22:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello CPG, So, if I understand you correctly, as far as you're concerned, M can't do no wrong, and when he does it is either due do youthful folly ('god-in-bod', the Indian cult trip), or it is a fabrication (re. the cyclist's death as reported by Michael Dettmers), or a case of non-accountability (the reports of pedophilia re. Jagdeo) and in all cases it should be minimized, if not dismissed. First, as youthful folly goes, M. was no longer a teen when still claiming to be 'the lord' and 'the Creator'. You just have to go over what he was saying in numerous programs in the 80's (M. turned 20 in 77). As for fabrication re. the cyclist, why on earth would anyone invent such a story ? Do you think, if it was a lie, that M.'s lawyers would hesitate a second to sue M. Dettmers for libel ? My guess is they wouldn't. Besides, if Michael invented that, then why not go a step further and say he invented everything ? Or even that everything anybody has stated here is a pure invention ? As for M. not being accountable for Jagdeo's behavior, sorry, but when you're the boss, the top honcho of any organization, you ARE accountable for what goes on in your immediate staff. That's the name of the game. If you don't want be accountable for what your top management is doing (Jagdeo being top management), than you should quit, because you simply don't have what it takes to be the boss. Not to mention that being a leader means that you are big enough a man to recognize when you are wrong. I can understand that you would love M. - after all, why not, it's you business, your life, and it's to each his own. But I find a bit condescending on your part when you state : 'but it makes me cringe to realize so much of your time is spent on negative activity , no matter how justified, instead of something positive for yourself. Negative behavior to others can't help but influence your self.' I'm not looking to you for support, understanding or approval. Do me a favor, stop cringing about the way I choose to spend my time, whether you find it positive or negative. I respect the way you spend yours, please respect the way I spend mine. As we say in French (maybe it's a universal quote, or from the Bible, I don't know ) : there is no deafer man than the one who doesn't' want to hear, no blinder man than the one who doesn't want to see. Best regards, HF

Subject: Re: thanks to all From: Happie Frenchie To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 15:20:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello CPG, So, if I understand you correctly, as far as you're concerned, M can't do no wrong, and when he does it is either due do youthful folly ('god-in-bod', the Indian cult trip), or it is a fabrication (re. the cyclist's death as reported by Michael Dettmers), or a case of non-accountability (the reports of pedophilia re. Jagdeo) and in all cases it should be minimized, if not dismissed. First, as youthful folly goes, M. was no longer a teen when still claiming to be 'the lord' and 'the Creator'. You just have to go over what he was saying in numerous programs in the 80's (M. turned 20 in 77). As for fabrication re. the cyclist, why on earth would anyone invent such a story ? Do you think, if it was a lie, that M.'s lawyers would hesitate a second to sue M. Dettmers for libel ? My guess is they wouldn't. Besides, if Michael invented that, then why not go a step further and say he invented everything ? Or even that everything anybody has stated here is a pure invention ? As for M. not being accountable for Jagdeo's behavior, sorry, but when you're the boss, the top honcho of any organization, you ARE accountable for what goes on in your immediate staff. That's the name of the game. If you don't want be accountable for what your top management is doing (Jagdeo being top management), than you should quit, because you simply don't have what it takes to be the boss. Not to mention that being a leader means that you are big enough a man to recognize when you are wrong. I can understand that you would love M. - after all, why not, it's you business, your life, and it's to each his own. But I find a bit condescending on your part when you state : 'but it makes me cringe to realize so much of your time is spent on negative activity , no matter how justified, instead of something positive for yourself. Negative behavior to others can't help but influence your self.' I'm not looking to you for support, understanding or approval. Do me a favor, stop cringing about the way I choose to spend my time, whether you find it positive or negative. I respect the way you spend yours, please respect the way I spend mine. As we say in French (maybe it's a universal quote, or from the Bible, I don't know ) : there is no deafer man than the one who doesn't' want to hear, no blinder man than the one who doesn't want to see. Best regards, HF

Subject: Re: thanks to all From: Happie Frenchie To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 15:18:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello CPG, So, if I understand you correctly, as far as you're concerned, M can't do no wrong, and when he does it is either due do youthful folly ('god-in-bod', the Indian cult trip), or it is a fabrication (re. the cyclist's death as reported by Michael Dettmers), or a case of non-accountability (the reports of pedophilia re. Jagdeo) and in all cases it should be minimized, if not dismissed. First, as youthful folly goes, M. was no longer a teen when still claiming to be 'the lord' and 'the Creator'. You just have to go over what he was saying in numerous programs in the 80's (M. turned 20 in 77). As for fabrication re. the cyclist, why on earth would anyone invent such a story ? Do you think, if it was a lie, that M.'s lawyers would hesitate a second to sue M. Dettmers for libel ? My guess is they wouldn't. Besides, if Michael invented that, then why not go a step further and say he invented everything ? Or even that everything anybody has stated here is a pure invention ? As for M. not being accountable for Jagdeo's behavior, sorry, but when you're the boss, the top honcho of any organization, you ARE accountable for what goes on in your immediate staff. That's the name of the game. If you don't want be accountable for what your top management is doing (Jagdeo being top management), than you should quit, because you simply don't have what it takes to be the boss. Not to mention that being a leader means that you are big enough a man to recognize when you are wrong. I can understand that you would love M. - after all, why not, it's you business, your life, and it's to each his own. But I find a bit condescending on your part when you state : 'but it makes me cringe to realize so much of your time is spent on negative activity , no matter how justified, instead of something positive for yourself. Negative behavior to others can't help but influence your self.' I'm not looking to you for support, understanding or approval. Do me a favor, stop cringing about the way I choose to spend my time, whether you find it positive or negative. I respect the way you spend yours, please respect the way I spend mine. As we say in French (maybe it's a universal quote, or from the Bible, I don't know ) : there is no deafer man than the one who doesn't' want to hear, no blinder man than the one who doesn't want to see. Best regards, HF

Subject: of these reactions From: Translation To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 20:26:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You must be either an idiot, a troll or brain-damaged, 'cause you don't agree with our little group. Therefore, you are a defective human being. We know exactly what's going on and anyone who sees things differently or reaches a different conclusion is warped and immoral. We've thrown our best (worst) at you and you still don't see things OUR way. How dare you! We are the apex of humanity, extremely bright, witty and of unblemished integrity. Read us some more! Read us some more and you'll get it eventually, if you dare. Maharaji has nothing! No gifts, no abilities and no vibe. There couldn't be a more drab, ordinary figure than Maharaji. We learned nothing from him. He knows nothing. Especially about 'Knowledge.' It's all about money. Always has been. ZZzzzzzzzzzz.....

Subject: Sorry to frustrate you, witto' anonymousie From: Jim To: Translation Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 21:52:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You must be either an idiot, a troll or brain-damaged, 'cause you don't agree with our little group. You've got things backwards. We say that anyone in their right mind, considering the evidence -- the testimony, the quotes, the documentation -- would agree with us that Maharaji's a worthless cult leader. Many times various exes here have simply implored you jokers to bring some outsiders into this dialogue. Get a journalist to do a retrospective of Maharaji. (And no, that stupid puff piece hardly qualifies). Something. But you guys are afraid of any of that, aren't you? The only reason we're a 'little group' is not because only a few agree with us. It's because no one else gives a damn. But the world's with us, bud, and you know it. Very funny to see you try to invert the truth like that. Therefore, you are a defective human being. Yes! To the extent that your thinking is hamstrung by cult membership, you betcha! We know exactly what's going on and anyone who sees things differently or reaches a different conclusion is warped and immoral. Well, calling Maharaji a cult leader and all that isn't exactly rocket science, is it? It's very, very obvious stuff we're doing here. And yes, anyone who does what CPG did is kinda warped, don't you think? I mean, what's it take to be warped? Not seeing things clearly? Not able to call them straight? Yeah, for sure, that's exactly what you're like. Immoral? Sure, why not? We've thrown our best (worst) at you and you still don't see things OUR way. How dare you! Yup! No apologies. We are the apex of humanity, extremely bright, witty and of unblemished integrity. This is just silly on your part. Some of us are extremely bright and witty, some aren't. No one here is of unblemished integrity, I don't imagine. Frankly, that sounds a bit antispetic and unreal for my thinking. And you sound like you're flailing. Don't you? Read us some more! Read us some more and you'll get it eventually, if you dare. Only if you're lucky, dude. Only if you're lucky. Maharaji has nothing! No gifts, no abilities and no vibe. Well he has something, I guess. We've all got something. One thing he's got is a lot of our money. Another thing he's got is a lot of your faith. A third thing he's got is one sleazy schtick but then I guess that's why he's a cult leader, woudln't you say? There couldn't be a more drab, ordinary figure than Maharaji. He's mundane, stupid in many respects and full of shit. I don't think you could call him 'drab' necessarily. Or 'ordinary'. He's a cult leader, after all! But look at you, for a second! You're reduced to defending him on such tepid grounds. He went from Lord of the Universe, Saviour of Mankind to being someone who isn't drab or ordinary? This is like Custer's last stand, isn't it? We learned nothing from him. He knows nothing. Especially about 'Knowledge.' DUH! It's all about money. Always has been. ZZzzzzzzzzzz..... Sarcasm that obscures issues is of no assistance. Yes, for sure, it is indeed about money at this point. Maybe once it wasn't. Tell me, do you honestly think Maharaji would be perpetuating this charade if he didn't make money from it -- and lots? Do your own thought experiment. How about this one? Maharaji is guaranteed that he can get a full thousand people to not just get Knowledge but to really, really get into it. Life-changes, it's that good. Only catch is that he has to pay, oh, how about a measly $1,000 for each one. What do you think he'd do? :)

Subject: Sorry ! There's an echo in there (nt) ! From: Happie Frenchie To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 15:27:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Bill and Ric From: Marianne To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 13:49:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CPG: Bill and Ric are old friends of mine. We saw each other frequently long after I left the cult behind, when I shopped at Rainbow. Rainbow Grocery in SF is in fact such a successful non profit because of the hard work of people like Bill and Ric. In any event, I am sure they would tell you that we were good friends, and that I am a very caring person. If you do see/talk to them, tell them I send my best. Marianne

Subject: Thanks CPG From: Dep =) To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 13:39:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well CPG, I respect your conclusion. And at least you had the guts to visit EPO and make an informed choice. I agree with you, the experience is real and I hope you continue to pursue it. Maybe one day you'll even catch it. (Just kidding!) Do whatever it takes to keep practicing Knowledge! In order for me to keep practicing, however, I had to let Mr. Rawat go. I believe that humans are not like animals because we have a soul. Like you, I believe that God is within each of us, and we should visit our inner temple once a day. Not all of us, just those who want to. Godspeed! =)

Subject: Dep? From: New-Age Redneck To: Dep =) Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 20:11:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep: You 'believe' that we and animals are fundamentally different? Are you THAT egotistical? Do you think we are THAT special? And we wonder where our general arrogance comes from.... We wonder why there are those that think a place is 'special' because humans have never walked on it. It goes both ways. People hating and those that think people are something extra special. Both sides of the same arrogant coin. We EVOLVED HERE! We belong here.... and NO PLACE is special just because a particular species hasn't trod on it. If we move like nature intended..... our presence in those untrodden lands would be little noticed. BUT NO.... we think we are somhow special, like we were planted here by aliens. Therein lies the ROOT of the problem. We set ourselves apart from nature and evolution. We 'think' we are special. We 'think' we a blessed. We 'think' the world belongs to us because somebody named 'god' gave it to us to use/abuse. Bull-hockey! It's not 'ours,' we are 'its.' We belong to the world and the sooner we recognize that simple, yet elegant fact, the sooner we will stop being arrogant and start 'living' here like every other species. As long as we 'think' we are somehow separate from or better than any other form of life, we will continue to let our arrogance despoil everything we touch. Spiritualism ENHANCES life-abuse, don't you see that?

Subject: Re: Dep? From: Dep To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 23:05:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NAR: Humans are fundamentally different from animals. I don't want to get into that. Over 90% of the species that have lived on this planet are extinct. And I'm not that arrogant to think that we can't be phased out. IMO spirituality is a way to mellow out, and that definitely has survival value. you show me a guy who feels connected and centred and I'll show you a guy who is not gonna cause that much trouble.

Subject: Ok, I will show you.... From: New-Age Redneck To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 11:57:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep: you said, '...you show me a guy who feels connected and centred and I'll show you a guy who is not gonna cause that much trouble....' Osama certainly feels 'connected' to his god. His whole life is 'centered' around foisting his misbegotten beliefs on everyone. Why, because he believes god is on his side. Because he has absolutely no respect for life... HERE! Every single form of spirituality is 'pie in the sky when you die' stuff. It's the FEAR of death that compels people to try to find something, anything, eternal. Fear is the driving factor, religion/spirituality is the result. Cause and effect, very simple. If you weren't afraid, you wouldn't be seeking solace. The only problem is, that 'seeking' of something 'more' has an unintended consequence. It, by its very nature, causes one to disrespect life AS IT IS. The belief in spiritual fairytales becomes more real than what is looking you in the face every single day. That fairytale reality then attempts to become a self-fulfilling prophecy and.... tada.... we tear the world, and everything in it, to shreds because 'others' don't believe in the same fairytale as us or because we think this is some waystation on the continuuum of our spiritual-fairytale growth. Why? Because we are AFRAID! That's it.... period!

Subject: Re: Ok, I will show you.... From: Dep To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 13:26:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NAR, They may be exceptions to the rule, but I think Osama is very much a dogma guy who is not connected on the heart level. There have been horrible atrocities committed in the name of religion from the crusades to 911. They were not comitted by people peaceful people , i.e. people who are peace with themselves and others. May seem trite, but peace will only come about only through peaceful people. IMO you are way off base with this one.

Subject: or as Matthew Parris says so well.. From: PatC To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 13:37:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Belief in Paradise is a recipe for hell on earth by Matthew Parris To anyone but the believer, does it matter whether there is an after-life? Is it anybody’s business but the believer’s? Are we intruding — is it rude? — when we who have no faith question the religious beliefs of those who do? It so happened that I was pondering this at the time when the World Trade Center collapsed. Not many weeks previously I had written for the Times an essay about miracles. Taking the account of a claimed miracle performed by (or through) the late Mother Teresa, and now under investigation by the Vatican, I asked how Roman Catholics could honestly believe such things. Citing by name a list of respected Catholic figures in British public life — men and women of great influence whom I acknowledged to be of superior judgment — I asked, of each, whether they believed that, through the agency of a silver medallion that had touched Mother Teresa’s corpse, God had cured an Indian peasant woman of a life-threatening tumour. When you write about religion you get a huge response from readers. Some were kind, but how quick many Christians are to become poisonous when their faith is questioned, impugning the character or motives of the questioner rather than engaging with the question. I was soon wading through piles of letters and emails, whose analysis will deserve another column for some interesting common themes link the letters. But one stood out. Expressed in many different ways, it amounted to this: ‘My faith may be an imperfect thing, but at least I’m trying, and what I have is my own. To each his own gods. Keep your nose out.’ In other words, those without faith have no right to finger the beliefs of the faithful, because faith is private, and at least believers have a belief, which is more than non-believers do. There are two strands here. First, a person’s understanding of the universe and its meaning is nobody’s business but his own; second, as half a loaf is better than no bread, so some kind of faith is better than no faith at all. Religious belief becomes a sort of possession — like a beautiful painting. Whether or not others share the owner’s taste is their problem, for he does not, by valuing something, force others to do so. The atheist, who cannot appreciate, should envy the believer, who can. And, as I’ve said, it so happens that this was what I was pondering just before those two suicide pilots went in. They had faith, but my atheism does not envy them. Their faith was personal, but very much our business. Their God claims, as does our Christian God, to be the God of all mankind, including us infidels who do not acknowledge him. Their religion, like ours, promises Paradise to those who are faithful to its cause. Now one had better at once make clear that no direct comparison is intended between a gentle and well-meaning Christian’s faith and the perversion of Islam that drove those young hijackers to their savage acts. Or, rather, we may make the comparison, but upon making it we will find that the two are in many respects different. There is, however, an important core common to both. Both faiths claim universality. Both teach their followers that there is another world more important than this one, and that entrance into that Paradise is to be gained or lost upon the judgment not of this world or anyone in it, but of a Being who stands beyond the here and now. Both believe that in a most important sense of the word this world is not real, and that the here and now does not matter. Meaning is elsewhere. Results, in the ultimate, are to be sought elsewhere. Judgment will be made by Another. If I have seemed to claim an absence of faith, then I take that back. I am a great believer in the here and now. I do believe in this world, in this humanity, its present and its future, and in results sought and found here on earth. And that it is we who must judge. I believe that the here and now is good, and worth working to improve; that human suffering is bad, and worth seeking to mitigate; and that life and peace, beauty and plenty, are to be sought as ends in themselves, for ourselves and for those who succeed us. I believe this world and its future matters, matters completely, matters more than anything. I believe this world is real. I know of no other. And I believe in the judgment of the here and now; that we and our fellow-men, in this life and for the sake of this life, can judge our contributions, applying our own standards, derivable from nobody and nothing but ourselves, rewardable or punishable by nobody and nothing but ourselves, rewardable or punishable nowhere but here. The reality in which I believe is not, however, solipsistic; it includes others, including future others. There is nothing necessarily selfish in a belief in the primacy of this life; any more than there is anything necessarily unselfish in the pursuit of Paradise in an after-life. A belief in the visible is a wonderfully steadying thing. The here and now can be horrific, shocking, painful, but if you think it is what counts, then you will so conduct yourself as to mitigate the horror, minimise the shocks, avoid the pain, for yourself and others. You will not lay waste this world in hopes of salvation in the next. You will not fly an aeroplane into a skyscraper. Or, rather, you will not do so unless convinced that others will benefit in this life. That you could benefit in Paradise is not an available outcome. You will not preach to wretched people the evils of birth control in this world, on the grounds that their souls’ salvation is what counts and though their children may starve they will see Glory in the next. You will not incite the poor to stone the poor, and call upon God in Heaven, as Ian Paisley does, as your judge. You will not dismiss real lives, real feelings, real hopes and fears, as a mere chimera, a veil of tears. For is the pursuit of the next life not a corrupter of this one? Is not the doctrine that this world does not matter an invitation to callousness, and the call of the next a call to madness? If we are not to judge by the evidence of our own eyes, then we are quickly in the hands of the mediators: those who claim to have glimpsed the invisible, to see illuminated by divine light what with our own eyes we cannot see, to hear voices we cannot hear, to know reasons beyond our reasoning. As Richard Dawkins said in the Guardian last week, Paradise-seeking missiles are the deadliest of weapons. If God did not exist it would have been necessary for Osama bin Laden to invent him. Godlessness is a humanising force. Matthew Parris is a political columnist of the Times.

Subject: Coodna said it better, myself :) From: New-Age Redneck To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 14:45:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And there it is! By the way, PatC, I've come up with a new chant, based upon my post above, for us new-age-redneck-atheist-metaphysical-naturalists. It's an god-belief exorcism chant..... Yelling: It's the power-of-fear that compels you! (silently: to believe in god) Yelling: It's the power-of-fear that compels you! (silently: to think there's more) Yelling: It's the power-of-fear that compels you! (silently: to think you are eternal). YELLING REALLY LOUD NOW: IT'S THE POWER-OF-FEAR THAT COMPELS YOU! (silently: to believe in fairytales, mistaking them for truth)..... Do ya think it will work? he he he :)

Subject: It stinks, NAR From: PatC To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 16:02:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Aaargh! But so true. Up above I said to you that I was wondering how the hell you of all people got mixed up in this guru crap. I'm still wondering. In fact I'm dying of curiosity. :C)

Subject: I will send it to you in email From: New-Age Redneck To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 16:44:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First, I have to think about that for a bit. My knee jerk answer wouldn't be right, if you know what I mean. I mean, it's easy enough to say, 'I was searching' but that would be pretty shallow. Rather than leave my typical 'book' length post, I'll put it in a email to ya. THat way you can read it at will without worrying about it being archived before you finished it...... he he he Hope that's ok. :)

Subject: Oh No NAR..Please From: Bai Ji To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 19:42:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Post it here. I wantaed to be an asronomer in my former hi jacked life. I believe I read thet you are an astrophysicist. Now there's something that inspires me. Please post your response here, it is enlightening and revealing to see how all differing mentalities and predilictions were enticed by the Holy Grail. Bai Ji (1/2 a parsec to the left)

Subject: To Bai Ji From: New-Age Redneck To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 13:08:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know not what you ask...... :) Actually, I guess I could make a reader's digest version for those that believe me of long-wind..... he he he .... or to protect the guilty :)

Subject: I'll nag you if you don't! :C) [nt] From: PatC To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 19:02:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Your beliefs are firmly grounded in ignorance [nt] From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 16:04:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I dare you to read th

Subject: Re: Your beliefs are firmly grounded in ignorance From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 19:05:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Beliefs exist in the mind. The Spirit is not a belief..... it's an EXPERIENCE!!!! We have a spirit and a mind, and the two things are DIFFERENT. AAAARRRRGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: A challenge of sorts, Dog From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 20:11:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, Why don't you read The Blind Watchmaker and see if it doesn't possiblty 'rock your world' as they say or, at minimum, make it jiggle a bit? Can't hurt, can it? It's well-written and you can get it cheap, even used if you want. Read that book, please, and then tell me how we have a spirit and a mind. I dare you. :) The Blind Watchmaker www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393315703/qid=1019088402/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_67_1/102-4749389-1383300

Subject: Re: A challenge of sorts, Dog From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 20:45:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, Why don't you read The Blind Watchmaker and see if it doesn't possiblty 'rock your world' as they say or, at minimum, make it jiggle a bit? Can't hurt, can it? It's well-written and you can get it cheap, even used if you want. Read that book, please, and then tell me how we have a spirit and a mind. I dare you. :) --- Jim, I appreciate your concern. I too have studied the mind and read books by Wilder Penfield on how our sensory experiences are stored as memory, synapses and all that. I have also studied the physiological effects of meditation, brain wave changes, reduced blood lactate levels etc. I'm sure The Blind Watchmaker is an excellent book and who knows, one day I might give it a read. But have you ever considered looking into The Book of Life? I mean recently? I come home and I'm frazzled and thinking a mile a minute. I sit down and go within, and feel myself becoming calm and centred. The thinking slows, and then there is that feeling of spaciousness and clarity, almost like an anchor. Bach wrote a hymn once called 'A Mighty Fortress is My Lord,' and I can relate to that image. A place within that is peaceful, where I feel connected and safe, smart, good and like who I 'really am.' Can you see the difference between these two states? Do you really think that all you are is the data you have recorded in your brain? Is that all you are Jim? What a stifling and confining way to live. It's not for me. I'm a soul man!

Subject: Time to change your name, Dog From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 21:01:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, Why don't you read The Blind Watchmaker and see if it doesn't possiblty 'rock your world' as they say or, at minimum, make it jiggle a bit? Can't hurt, can it? It's well-written and you can get it cheap, even used if you want. Read that book, please, and then tell me how we have a spirit and a mind. I dare you. :) --- Jim, I appreciate your concern. I too have studied the mind and read books by Wilder Penfield on how our sensory experiences are stored as memory, synapses and all that. I have also studied the physiological effects of meditation, brain wave changes, reduced blood lactate levels etc. I'm sure The Blind Watchmaker is an excellent book and who knows, one day I might give it a read. But have you ever considered looking into The Book of Life? I mean recently? I come home and I'm frazzled and thinking a mile a minute. I sit down and go within, and feel myself becoming calm and centred. The thinking slows, and then there is that feeling of spaciousness and clarity, almost like an anchor. Bach wrote a hymn once called 'A Mighty Fortress is My Lord,' and I can relate to that image. A place within that is peaceful, where I feel connected and safe, smart, good and like who I 'really am.' Can you see the difference between these two states? Do you really think that all you are is the data you have recorded in your brain? Is that all you are Jim? What a stifling and confining way to live. It's not for me. I'm a soul man! --- Why not just call yourself 'See-no-evil'?

Subject: Re: Time to change your name, Dog From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 21:27:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, Why don't you read The Blind Watchmaker and see if it doesn't possiblty 'rock your world' as they say or, at minimum, make it jiggle a bit? Can't hurt, can it? It's well-written and you can get it cheap, even used if you want. Read that book, please, and then tell me how we have a spirit and a mind. I dare you. :) --- Jim, I appreciate your concern. I too have studied the mind and read books by Wilder Penfield on how our sensory experiences are stored as memory, synapses and all that. I have also studied the physiological effects of meditation, brain wave changes, reduced blood lactate levels etc. I'm sure The Blind Watchmaker is an excellent book and who knows, one day I might give it a read. But have you ever considered looking into The Book of Life? I mean recently? I come home and I'm frazzled and thinking a mile a minute. I sit down and go within, and feel myself becoming calm and centred. The thinking slows, and then there is that feeling of spaciousness and clarity, almost like an anchor. Bach wrote a hymn once called 'A Mighty Fortress is My Lord,' and I can relate to that image. A place within that is peaceful, where I feel connected and safe, smart, good and like who I 'really am.' Can you see the difference between these two states? Do you really think that all you are is the data you have recorded in your brain? Is that all you are Jim? What a stifling and confining way to live. It's not for me. I'm a soul man! --- Why not just call yourself 'See-no-evil'? --- The vipassana or insight meditation I'm doing these days is about acceptance. Accepting all your experience, both the good and the bad. Looking at it all. Confronting it all. Why? Because what you resist is what you get. Resistance leads to persistance and re-cereation leads to eration. Accept it, observe it, speak it, feel it and it disappears. And you are left with nothing, no thing, which is really something. Which is clarity. By looking at things the way they are, you get space for yourself. It's like using the clear button on a calculator. If you don't hit the clear button the next calculation will be way off. Vipassana or insight meditation involves looking at all of your self, the good, the bad, and the ugly and clearing it out. It doesn't mean pretending everything is okay. It doesn't mean getting a lobotomy. It means erasing what you don't want by experiencing it, experiencing it out. If you had the guts to take the Landmark Forum that your relatives begged you to, you would know what I mean. But noooo....... So to call myself 'See-no-evil' would be a joke as I have rehabilitated my ability to experience out my mental machinery, my conditioning. I use my mind, it doesn't use me. That's why I'm a soul man.

Subject: Dog, are you afraid to read the book? From: New-Age Redneck To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 19:59:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think that is a possibility that YOU should look into. Fear really sucks, man. I'm not even trying to be insulting, either. It's an honest appraisal of what I'm hearing. Dude, we've read ALL those spiritual books. Well, ok, I'll speak for myself and tell you there isn't an ancient spiritual text that I haven't read. There aren't many buddhist texts (no matter what the age) tha I haven't read. Heck, I've even read the URANTIA book, cover to cover. If you know ANYTHING about that particular book, you know that's a feat in and of itself. I've read them, tried to understand them, tried to assimilate their teachings and tried to act on that assimilation. Why won't you do the same with The Blind Watchmaker? Is it because you are afraid it will shake-your-faith? It just might.... are you up to the challenge? Really? Yes, I think it will rock-your-world. Yes, it is a very concise and accurate account of evolution in a voice that almost anyone can understand. You may even find some good arguing points (for later discussion with Jim and others). But I guarantee this: It will NOT make you hate life. It will NOT cause you to give up on life. It will NOT devalue life or what you think of life. If anything at all, it WILL enhance all of the above. Is life and the origin of life not 'worth studying?' If you say it isn't, I would say that you value life little and that you show it great disrespect for what it simply is..... LIFE!

Subject: Well, Dog, ARE you? [nt] From: Jim To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 15:44:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I guess fear reigns supreme, Jim From: New-Age Redneck To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 13:03:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Given a slight passage of time (couple o' days), the lack of a response (or is it 'bark') would seem to indicate the ole ostrich mentality at it again. I've heard of 'fear of the unknown,' but fearing the 'known' is beyond me..... he he he :) It's unfortunate that those who would seek to change 'our' minds don't have the intestinal fortitude to try their own medicine. That doesn't exactly stike me as 'free' thinking. On to other heights, I guess.... :)

Subject: Yes, he's definitely frightened From: Jim To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 17:09:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog is most definitely frightened. No question about it. And that's EXACTLY why he hasn't answered despite all the other posts he's responded to. Pretty pathetic, isn't it?

Subject: Ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!! From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 21:57:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I suggest a science modern classic that will completely challenge your whole 'mind / spirit' belief and you come back with 'insight meditation' and some other cult for me to check out. You look like a complete idiot, do you know that?

Subject: Re: Ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!! From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 22:04:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another cult for you to check out????????? What the fffffff. You've spun out Jack! Jeeze you are in worse shape than I thought. Get help!

Subject: Like I said -- ignorance From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 19:28:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're pre-scientific and that's the way you like it. Nothing the least bit respectable about that.

Subject: To Jim and Dep From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 05:07:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim and Dep, The above spat was a fantastic read and made me laugh out loud. I love it when you guys fight! I've had more fun reading this forum than I had in the premie world in the days of water-fights when we were all really young. Keep 'em coming! (Love you guys) Livia XXX

Subject: Me too, Livia ! ()) From: Crispy To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 20:32:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've never joined in their fights - I just let 'em to go at it themselves. But I would just LUV to be a fly on the wall in the room if these two ever got together! Yes, Dep, I think that would beat your George Carlin CD anyday ! ;) PS: Jim, you MUST drop by our neck of the woods again sometime for a visit Cheers, Crispy

Subject: To Livia: Join in.... From: New-Age Redneck To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 20:18:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Splash around a bit.... it's genuinely fun. Which 'side' do you tend towards? Are you a Metaphysical Naturalist like Jim and I, or are you a spiritualist? Jim, before you scream, we ARE metaphysical naturalists (I really love that title......) Read infidels.org to see the definition. It's GREAT! I can't claim I found it.... I think it was PatC.

Subject: Re: To Livia: Join in.... From: Livia To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 09:55:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Redneck, I'm just in the middle of working out where I stand with all this stuff, thanks for asking! I was an agnostic before Knowledge, with leanings towards a sense that there might be something. Then spent 30 years believing that there definitely was something, of course. Now? I'd veer more towards Jim's take on things, but the jury's out as far as 'spirituality''s concerned. I think Dep has taken an awful lot of concepts on board and swallowed them hook line and sinker. He probably needs to be more circumspect in the way he interprets whatever experiences he's had. (Are you there, Dep?) I mean, I remember when I first received Knowledge, wondering exactly what the experience would have meant to me had I not listened to so much satang. Would it have meant as much? Would Dep's experiences mean as much to him if he hadn't read any Buddhist books and taken the ideas on board? It's all in the interpretation, isn't it? Love, Liv

Subject: You bet! From: New-Age Redneck To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 11:48:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, yes and yes! I think that if we hadn't had the front-loading prior to having that wonderous 'k' bestowed upon our unworthy selves, we would have seen it for what it was much sooner. Basically a nice way to calm down, nothing more. Personally, I've driven all of this spiritual drivel out of my system because I think it is untrue, but worse yet, it is destructive of nature (and our inherent nature). It tries to set us apart as something special in the eyes of some fanciful creator/god/whatever. It separates us from the 'wonder' that this universe is. That is pure whack-doodle. We evolved here, we belong here and everything living is related to us, in some way or another. Jeez, a banana shares 50 percent of our dna. I saw a quote from bin laden today that said it all, as far as I'm concerned. He said the hijackers 'knew' that god had something better for them than living 'here.' What a pile of crap! It's inherent in ALL religions that they feel this way and it is inherent in every form of spirituality. The total disregard and disrespect for life, itself, is the sole domain of religion and its ilk. Nobody can even come close to proving me wrong on that one (at least, not yet). Their words betray them at every turn and I find it thoroughly disgusting. Why can't we simply 'wonder' at the beauty of life itself. Even if I don't 'live forever,' does that make the experience less valid or meaningful, in and of itself? I think not..... I think it makes it even more 'precious.' I don't need a 'higher' calling to appreciate life, I need to simply LIVE, the best way I know how. :)

Subject: Natural Metaphysicists? :).. [nt] From: Dermot To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 22:41:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Metaphysical naturalists? From: Crispy To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 21:22:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's the first time I heard that term, too. excerpted from infidels.org:- ...nonbelievers dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge, understanding and tolerance. Our goal is to promote and defend metaphysical naturalism, the view that our natural world is all that there is, a closed system in no need of an explanation and sufficient unto itself. We want to uphold the dignity of humanity and to encourage the avid pursuit of philosophy and the scientific enterprise. To disbelieve in the gods, as Emma Goldman wrote, is at the same time to affirm life, purpose and beauty. Cool. How does that differ from the humanists, exactly? I actually went to some humanist meetings while marginally involved as a premie back in the '80s. Question: can a person be a metaphysical naturalist and still derive enjoyment from, say, the 3rd technique (scenario: they were shown the technique by a rogue premie friend who never even mentioned Mj to him/her? or other scenario: say from a breath relaxation session in a holistic practioner's office? (for ex.) with no belief/devotion system attached. PS: this question was similar to the question that SNAPPED me out of Mj cult during the Kit information session. I'd be interested in hearing your answer... PPS: As for myself, I'm far from proclaiming myself a true spiritualist or true naturalist either way - I'm in a many-shades-of-grey mentality right now. Besides, I haven't read The Watchmaker yet, so I may comment further AFTER reading that. Cheers to ya, redneck, Crispy

Subject: Of course! From: New-Age Redneck To: Crispy Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:09:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Crispy (love the name) I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with 'meditation,' as a technique to quiet down a little or to relax. All you are doing is a self-induced change in brain chemistry and activity. Anything wrong with that? I don't think so. It's only when you are front-loaded with the 'spiritualistic' clap-trap that it becomes destructive. Instead of being what it is.... a good way to slow down to a more natural pace, it turns people into meditation 'junkies' searching for some non-existent mana-from-heaven.... oh wait, 'I AM' heaven, earth, all that exists, I've merged with the universe.... blah, blah, blah.... Fear is what 'causes' spiritualism and power-trips are the inevitable result.

Subject: My suspicions, too... From: Crispy To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 15:39:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks NAR. yea, the meditation state, labelled as 'inner nirvana, purity, perfection', etc. etc. that everybody 'praises as such', really is just a feeling state everybody already inherently has. There are many other methodologies besides meditation to revisit it, by slowing down thoughts, brain waves activities. This brings it down to a biochemical phenomena without changing anything. All the special religious and emotional attributions making it out to be something cosmic, and especially some fool saying you can't get to it without me, was never ever necessary. Gurus have taken it way over the line into a deceptive crime by controlling people's lives and actions. Thanks again, NAR; The Watchmaker is next on my reading list. Crispy, cult toasted, the KIT being the spring that popped me out of the toaster, landing me on the pages of EPO

Subject: Glad you sorted all this out. From: Tonette To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 11:14:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear CPG, We are two very different people, obviously. We think completely different, our belief systems, our perspective. But there is one thing we do share, the 'experience' of knowledge and validating M as a ?, gee, what is he calling himself these days? Let's set aside the Lord of the Universe crap (after all he was only 16 and dropped that mantle when he was 25), okay then he was Master and most recently, Prem of the Foundation or something like that. (personally, I think this latest is still evolving) Anyway, he's 45 this year. I guess he's allowed to wind down a bit. I think it fair to say we are pretty much looking at the finished product. Factoring in the male factor, my studies and experience has shown me that people generally are fully mature at age 25, men a little later. So, Prem, or Maharaji, just in case you haven't made the transition yet from Guru Maharaji, to Maharaji, to Master, to Prem Rawatt, is who he is and has been for 15 or 20 years or so. Are these fair statements? So, the rapes his initiator Jagedo did with little girls, however ancient but not ancient enough that the victims are dead nor old women, is something you're able to push under the rug. From your statement, you believe that 'at the time' M didn't know about the penetration. Okay, I'll give you that stretch and a very generous one at that. However, he does know and has known for over 2 years. The fact that this matter did come to light, over two years ago, means that these victims are still hurting. And............ I guess it's not his problem. Can you imagine being worth millions of dollars and not doing something for the victims of this deplorable crime that happened under your watch, by one of your employees? Huh? Words are cheap, we all know that. Actions are what define our character, our intentions, our self. M is very good with the words and so are you. I'll not fling insults to you like you did to this forum in your swansong. Nope, not going to take the bait. I will say a little more about myself because it illustrates the people who post here, in this negative activity. Contrary to what you might think, I am not horribly hurt my M. I was LUCKY! And those who were extremely hurt have mostly moved on. No, the people who post here and come and go, are committed to illuminating the truth about who and what your master is. I do read and follow this forum. New information comes out monthly. New people newly exited need some help, some kind words, some information. I am not a stupid, hateful ex-premie. I am very successful and talented nurse. I am in charge of a 17 room operating room located in Washington, DC attached to a crediable and world recognized medical school. Your categorization of the people here on this forum was offensive. See, this forum provides a public service. It disseminates the truth about M and the behind the scenes activity that most of us were not privy to as premies. The stuff that had you known, at the time, maybe you would of seen a little more clearly exactly what the transformation membership in M's world would inevitably extract from you. Physically, spiritually, and morally. This forum and EPO helps to heal people. Cults can really take it out of you you know. Whoops, guess you don't, not yet anyway. This forum is just one avenue whereby human beings extracting themselves from following M can come for information, dialogue, and love. I guess if I had to put the flavor of this forum in descending order it would be: Love Dialogue Information (after all there is EPO) Anyway, contrary to what you may think, we are far from losers and hateful people engaging in a negative activity. I don't expect nor imagine, you will be able to see that. You discredit the information posted to you personally, from the very person you called for clarification, Michael Dettmers. You discredit and dismiss the information, some of it scanned original documents, on EPO. So, discredit all of us. The experience is what matters. Your experience. The knowledge, the meditation. Without that, what is the meaning to life? What is your validation? Yeah, your life, your experience, the knowledge. Forever grateful, forever enamoured to one who showed you this most beautiful gift. Regardless. To each his own. What are you going to do when your children ask about who and what M is? This is a different world, they will be able to put two and two together by about age 8, 9 or at the latest 10. They will be able to smell Prem a mile away. And what will they think of you and your answer? You can blow us off but you had better start formulating your excuses to them now! You have said in so many words that your mind is made up. I wonder how much of your mind is actually yours any longer. Godspeed, Thanks for your farewell, Tonette

Subject: CPG: not a closed matter From: Will To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 10:41:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CPG, Thanks for letting us know where you now stand. It is very interesting for me. I have a premie friend who I talk with now and then about all of this and there is a lot of similarity in his approach and yours. Some people here are doubting your sincerity, but personally, I do not. I think you are expressing yourself honestly. My impression is that you want to deal with the objectionable stuff, make an informed decision, and then get on with it. But I don't think you will be able to. For one thing, there are some issues that remain unresolved, for any of us, one of which I will mention in a moment. But for another thing, there are always big and small mysteries involved in the practice of Knowledge, (or any other path, for that matter), and these will never be resolved. I could make a list of these 'mysteries,' but we all know them, and by 'all' I mean everybody, not just premies and exes. There is a mystery inherent in human life and we have to come to terms with the not-knowing. Knowledge, as it is presented my Maharaji, in the past and today, is a myth. Real human maturity only comes when we give up such myths, and approach life authentically, without our common silly attempts to adjust it to our own limitations. But, be that as it may, I do want to make mention of the continuing Jagdeo problem. One very big aspect to this, that you should be concerned with, is that Jagdeo is still alive, and Prem Rawat has not done the right thing. In 1999, when Rawat says he first learned about Jagdeo's crimes, Jagdeo was living in Maharaji's Delhi ashram. He was allowed to leave, and the official position of Elan Vital at that time, was that they had no idea where he had gone off to. Prem Rawat, evidently, did not speak to Jagdeo himself about the matter. Hmmmm. Boy, if I were the living Master, I would have had a little something to say to Jagdeo. My point here, is that crimes of pedophilia should be settled in some manner by responsible people. The Catholic Church is now being pressured to bring to some satisfying conclusion the gigantic problem with pedophilia in their priesthood. So, too, the Prem Rawat Foundation should be pressured into concluding the Jagdeo matter in some satisfying way. To pretend to not know where Jagdeo is, to do absolutely nothing about finding him, to publicly criticize Abi, and to try to do everything possibly to sweep the matter forever under the rug is a rotten and despicable thing to do. Jagdeo is an old man and his crimes are presumably over ten years old, but neither of these facts are reason to let the matter rest. One of Jagdeo's victims committed suicide. (I don't know, CPG, if your research uncovered that bit of info). The heart demands justice. It demands truth, and the full disclosure of truth. It demands a love that is simple and honest and free of doubt. It demands a unity that reaches all of life. Best wishes, CPG, whether you stay or go from this forum, whether you follow Rawat or not. But please don't consider the Jagdeo issue a closed matter. And don't consider the desire of the heart a closed matter. We all have more to learn.

Subject: Now I'm going graphic... From: Cynthia To: Will Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 12:09:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To CPG: Jagdeo is the most disturbing issue because i believe Jagdeo did commit those crimes, and if so they did happen while he was with M. But there is absolutely no evidence of a 'coverup' or complicity or involvement in his crimes. I think in the absolute worse case he heard about the fondling incident -inexcusable but not yet rape-and put security on him which was inadequate. I've become very tired of the minimization of the distinctions between ''types'' of child sexual abuse. This issue is very close to home to me and I know a lot about it--took the home study course. Whenever an adult sexualizes a child it is not only a crime but a serious wounding of that child. Jagdeo did not genitally rape every one of his victims but that is immaterial. All sexual abuse harms children for life. That means that once sexualized by an adult, their innocence is taken forever, their trust in people is taken, they live in fear. The process of working through these woundings physically and emotionally (and usually in secret) is beyond your comprehension, obviously. If Jagdeo digitally raped a girl or boy, the experience would be very similar to genital rape. Grown men have large fingers compared to the vagina or anus of a small child. If Jagdeo ''fondled'' a girls breasts or a boy's penis that, too, is an horrific crime against that girl or boy. As I said ALL SEXUAL ABUSE wounds a child and steals a child's innocence and cannot ever be given back. Just think about it. Picture it in your mind. Take a look at children in that age range sometime if you don't have kids of your own. Imagine someone attacking a child that small, that innocent, and then come back and argue. I think the truth is probably more likely as Harry expressed- this didnt come to light until 20 years later. To try and imply M somehow condoned this behavior is ridiculous. As far as M compensating the victims; he didn't do the crime. Theoretically I agree it would be nice if he did pay the victims, but the reality is if he paid one person there would be a line to Mexico of alleged victims just as unverifiable asking for payment. He would be financially wiped out before the rest went away, and I am sure this has not escaped those bent on his destruction. If evidence ever comes to light that shows malice or criminal behavior by M in this matter I will be greatly disturbed and reevaluate my relationship with him. I won't do that at this point based only on baseless accusations. There probably would be a line from Malibu to Mexico. Good. To brush this issue off as if Maharaji had no responsibility in stopping it is ludicrous. Hypothetically, if Maharaji only 'recently' discovered these crimes, as was acknowledged in the EV Press Report, there is resonsibility on his part to compensate those now grown children. Sexual abuse is not about sex. It is about power. Maharaji had the followers in his cult to lie for him--that's called covering up. He had people watch Jagdeo who allegedly didn't even know the reason for watching him. Why? Because, true to his form, Maharaji can never be wrong. He is so narcissistic he cannot bear to have anything attached to him which is negative. Well, CPG, Maharaji lives in the real world too. He and his cultic power those 20 years ago was also given to the Mahatmas, Initiators and PAMs who obeyed any agya he gave. The Catholic Church has been covering up sexual abuse crimes for decades. The people who covered it up are not necessarily criminally responsibly, but definitely morally responsible. The priests abused their position of power and trust, the same as the Mahatmas abused their position of power and trust. This power was used by Jagdeo to commit heinous crimes against the kids of premies, of devotees. Not PWKs, not people with auto-knowledge or DVD knowledge, but premies who worshipped Maharaji as Lord. Premies who were quite afraid of Jagdeo's reportedly nasty and demanding behavior, too. Now it's 2002. Maharaji has known about this sexual abuse at least since 1999. What has he done? Nothing. Why? In my opinion because he is a coward. He cannot bear to part with his wealth. He won't put his name in jeopardy. I have said this many times before. What Maharaji has done by not at the very least publicly acknowledging the abuse and calling for abuse victims to come forward is cowardly. It's tantamount to a grown man holding up a child to protect himself from being shot. And here I am, talking to an anonymous person with no credibility. Same with Harry. Who's Harry? Who are you? And who is anyone to judge the degrees of harm done to children and whether or not it's Maharaji's responsibility to do something about it? Where do you get off coming here making a few posts and then writing your 'assessment'? Very audacious, IMO. There is so much controvery about the veracity of an adult sexual abuse victim speaking out. I ask you. Why would someone make such an accusation? For fun? Why would anyone make it up? For the excitement? To ''bring Maharaji down?'' No. They do it because they have suffered and are telling the truth about their abuse and deserve something in return for their lifetime of pain and suffering. What do they deserve? Money. That's just about all that could be given, especially in view of the fact that they were abused within a cult. When a little child reports child abuse the first thing that must be said is ''it was not your fault.'' The people at EV have blamed the victims since 1999--at least. Their implication is that is 'was the children's fault.' Very weak and cowardly, too. Shows me how lacking in moral fiber Prem Rawat and his minions are. And you anonymously come here, read the EPO sight briefly and make a judgment based on nothing except your inability to see through your Maharaji-colored glasses. Oh yes, Maharaji is responsible for compensating the Jagdeo victims. All over the globe where he sent Jagdeo while Jagdeo was working as an agent of Prem Rawat. Just picture what I asked you to picture above. Jagdeo is a pedophile and the proof of that is he arranged 'children only satsangs' and during those sessions, on DLM property, commited violent acts against children. Think, please. Think. Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA

Subject: Well, I've already gone 'caps' on the guy once... From: gErRy To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 12:21:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great post, Cynth, really. Oh yes, Maharaji is responsible for compensating the Jagdeo victims. All over the globe where he sent Jagdeo while Jagdeo was working as an agent of Prem Rawat. Amen!

Subject: Not so fast... From: Nigel To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:53:59 (EDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: It is equally likely the story... [hit-and-run] ...is a complete fabrication. I wish, for your own sake, you would, as Jim suggested, contact Michael Dettmers and voice your doubts to the man you are implying is a liar. Have you thought this through properly? I mean, why, in a million years, would MD risk his own reputation and possible legal consequences from perpetuating a libel of this magnitude. He would have much to lose and nothing to gain. You obviously don't trust the man, but has anything he has posted led you to consider him recklessly stupid? You owe yourself better than this, CPG. I suggest check out Chuck's post below.

Subject: CPG's not trying From: gerry To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 10:54:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He came here to 'shore up' other premies' wavering faith in the Perfect Master of Our Time. He's not here to objectively examine the evidence. He's already drawn his conclusions. He's a faithful cult member with his 'experience' to back him up. He's an insincere coward if you ask me...

Subject: Good point, Nige From: Jerry To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 10:53:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why would Dettmer's lie? What's to gain if he did compared to what he stands to lose? I agree with you. CPG isn't willing to really think this through as far as he should, if he dared, but I'll bet one thing. He'll never look at M the same way again. He'll always be nagged in the back of his mind that he's not being completely honest with himself about what he's learned. That's if he has a conscience, at least.

Subject: To CPG From: Neville To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 07:03:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rationalisation...rationalisation...rationalisation... I guess this is how witchdoctors stay in business. Negative activity? The journeys page is the tip of an iceberg of ripped-off people, people who have lost careers and years of their life, and sometimes their life itself. Now *that* is negative, and for it to come to an end as soon as possible would be a highly positive outcome. The current batch of premies think they are so cool. It's all suits instead of robes, air-conditioned offices instead of damp ashrams, all competence and smiles. It doesn't matter. He'll shaft you, too, and in twenty years you guys will be posting here, complaining about lies and lost lives. Neville

Subject: Re: thanks to all From: Bolly Shri To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 06:59:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why do I get the feeling you are a commitee and not an individual? You claim to have considered all the arguments and on balance feel that M has nothing to anwer for because incidents are ancient history. Fair enough, as far as it goes, but and there always is a but. But supposing you were a fairly low profile humble premie attempting to follow agya as it was once called and in your own eyes failing. You attempt to aproach the person who taught this route to the ultimate experience and his guards block your path. Then you turn for guidance to other followers and they equally deluded but not wishing to admit it say you need service satsang and meditation. And nohing changes only that your child becomes more lost and neglected, I'm talking about a real person here. Her parents tried to help her by removing her from the environs of the cult, oh! lucky woman. Not really the premies rescued her and took her to satsang where she could bask in the vibe and find peace. She died about 15 years ago, well thats quite a long time so what does it matter? It bloody well matters because she was a decent person trying to do what she thought was right and it was impossible. Her child grew up without a mother. A woman who if her circle of friends and supporters had not been a bunch of Steptford wives playing in Ms lila would still be alive and loving and giving today, as she tried all those years ago. We might have some respect for the guy if he just came out and said sorry sometimes. Even the pope is now acknowledging you can't bury the truth without the smell escaping.

Subject: I kinda saw this reply coming... From: Chuck S. To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 05:38:22 (EDT) Email Address: cmsprague@bootbox.net Message: ... when you stopped posting for a while. You wouldn't be the first premie to turn up here, looking for information to refute the allegations against Maharaji, take a quick look through, give a pronouncement that it's not substancial enough, then split. Although as Pat said, you are perhaps one of the politest. When I first told you that I took two years to read through and assimilate the information on EPO, you replied something to the effect that it was an overly-cautious approach. I was kind of taken aback by that. "Caution" had nothing to do with it. Thoroughness did. I worked for lawyers for several years. I have seen many, many depositions, and been privy to many behind-the-scenes work behind trials. I have come to appreciate that, when trying to find out the truth about anything, you have to take the time to do the homework, weigh the evidence, dig for the facts, and sometimes just wait, until more information shows up, more credible witnesses come forward, or enough of the pieces fit together to ascertain the truth. Maharaji and his organizations have been cloaked in secrecy. I know that from my OWN experiences and inquieries. You seem to expect that we should be able to supply you with irrefutable, legal evidence that all the allegations are true, and that if you can't find it here in a weeks time, then probably ALL of it isn't true, and we are just having a hate fest here, wasting our time on negativity. The full truth about anything should be so easy to find. If it were, we wouldn't have been sucked into a cult in the first place. The whole point of secrecy is to make it difficult to find out the facts, and to discourage people from trying. If there were irrefutable legal evidence already, this would be in legal process right now. And let's not forget, the story isn't over yet, it continues. Crimes are committed daily by people who appear to follow the letter of the law. Evidence to the contrary can be hidden. Secrecy, the limiting and controling of information, can be used very effectivly to keep a charade going. The lack of legal evidence is no guareente that all is as you are told it is. Ethics can be breached without breaking laws. There IS such a thing as "credible witnesses". This place is provided for us to talk about what we know. Not all of us left 30 years ago. In just the past year alone I have seen many people post here for a while, then move on. I've heard from many more who never post here, but read. Many more new folks have started posting. You've only looked in on this for a week, and already you are ready to dismiss it as inadequate. When the truth is hidden, it takes TIME to dig for it. We compare our experiences here. We invite others to contribute. Maharaji and his representatives are welcomed, even encouraged, to come here and straighten out any misunderstandings or errors. But they don't. Why do you think that is? Could it be that they CAN'T? I remember Maharaji once saying that, there was a group of people criticizing him, but that it was all a misunderstanding. I thought, OK then, great, explain it. But he changed the subject. For years I waited for him to explain these misunderstandings, but he never did. Why not? The real reason I left Maharaji was not the 14 points, or his sex life or drinking or smoking or any of that kind of stuff. In the end, it was just considering what I KNEW, what I really KNEW, from my own experiences, and watching and listening to him. I took the time to learn, listen, discern, and understand as much as I possibly could. Not just by reading allegations on EPO, but by studying the Indian background, not just on EPO but from other sources, and by reading up on cults, not just what was said on EPO but again from other sources. I gave myself the time to do that, the respect to do that. I allowed myself to ask questions, to feel uncomfortable, and use that discomfort to dig further. I got involved with helping in his organization, I helped with the video library, I watched lots of his videos. I also stayed very true to my feelings, and especially those things that drew me to recieve Knowledge in the first place, and the feelings that kept me involved with M & K for 20 years. I left Maharaji, in the end, because of Maharaji. If even only half of the things said about him on EPO were true, it wouldn't describe the kind of person I would want to refer other people to, in the way M. wants to propagate himself. It wouldn't describe the carefully crafted and edited stage and screen persona known as Maharaji that I felt I had known for so many years. To this very day, I can, within moments really, slip right back into feeling completely sentimental about that stage and screen persona. I'm doing it right now. I can feel no hatred for him at all, and it fits like a old comfortable shoe. I call it my "Premie Heart". It feels nice. The feeling IS real. Buy I don't actually know the guy. He doesn't know me. My feelings for him are the same as those you might feel for a character on your favorite TV show. You feel like you know that character, the feelings you have for that character are real, but in reality, the character itself is fiction. An actor, playing a part. I know you value your feelings; I say don't throw them away. Just be willing to scrutinize the alledged souce, and give yourself time to do that. I think you want to make a snap decision and be done with it, but isn't that a bit like trying to hide from something? It's not like you have to do the complete opposite either; to suddenly chuck it all away. Give yourself time to assimilate; let your understanding grow, and find out what you need to know, without having to sacrifice either your intellectual honesty or your heart (your feeling nature). You should never have to choose one over the other, you have both for a reason. Actually, your arguments sound a lot like the excuses I made, when I first discovered EPO. I read it for about a week, but it started to make me feel ill, so I backed off. I thought about it for a while. I checked in occasionally, slowly read and looked for the answers I wanted. I know you can do the same, if you want to. I could go through your post and try to answer you point by point, but I don't think you are really asking for that. It's not for me to try to convice you of anything. I do wonder though, if your wife is also a premie? I don't recall you saying, but then I don't always read all the posts, forgive me if you've said already. Does she know you've been reading and posting here? Having a premie spouse who is not open to scrutinizing Maharaji and discussing the information here and on EPO can make it very challenging to try to do. I was lucky that Pat was open to discussing it. We helped eachother. Anyway, if you ever do want to talk more, you can! My only advice to you is the same advice the instructor who showed me the techinques gave to me: "Slow and steady wins the race". 20 years later, I can tell you, it's true. Best Wishes, - Chuck S.

Subject: Thanks, Chuck From: Will To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 11:52:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Chuck, for your comments. Yes, the story isn't over yet. I especially like the bold faced comment, because it deserves the highlighting. Yes, indeed, it is the 'desire of the heart' that brings us to the guru and which lead us away from the guru and in the end, allows us the wisdom to forever leave the guru. Maharaji and Knowledge does not succeed in fulfilling the heart, because Maharaji's version of truth is far far too narrow, and its foundation is not firmly on the unchangeable, but steeped in maya, (to use some familiar, and ironic, terminology). If premies really had the guts to live life based on the unchangeable, they wouldn't have any interest in Guru Maharaj Ji, I mean Prem Rawat. The difference between premies and exes is based on our various impressions of an image. You are so right to compare it to a character on a stage or television show. I remember Long Beach 1997 when I fell out of love with that 'stage persona.' I realized that to me, Maharaji was just about 1/2 inch tall. I didn't want to be devoted to somebody who was only 1/2 inch tall to me. Boy, was I unsatisfied at that program! And I knew I couldn't get closer, or more real. I decided I wouldn't go to any more '3 day festivals' where Maharaji was so far away. At that program in Long Beach, Maharaji ironically, and maybe accidentally, spoke of himself in those terms, as playing two separate parts, the part of a father and the part of a master, and how the two parts don't coincide sometimes. (He was talking about a problem with one of the kids). I was shocked to hear this comment. He seemed to be saying the the 'master' part of himself was something that he put on. And it really is. I did attend a small, less festive, program in Chicago, soon afterwards. Maharaji was a little taller, but he was annoyingly unsatisfying. I wanted real water, abundant water, water that was within my reach. Ironic, isn't it, all the analogies that Rawat uses are really valid, but he himself doesn't fit in where he places himself. He isn't the real food, he's just a menu! And that's all it takes. The 14 objections can go either way in a person's head. So what! It's the fulfillment of the heart that really counts. In the 'pinata satsang,' Maharaji tells the story of a little flower who says to the Perfect Master, please unite me with all my friends into one garland and put me around your neck so that I may experience your divine personality.' Can Maharaji tell that story now?!? He wouldn't dare. His legacy will certainly not be one of unity among his students.

Subject: Feelings DO count for premies... From: Chuck S. To: Will Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 15:38:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... which is why I made the comments in bold. My feelings count for me, too! I want to feel good! I feel that good feelings don't have to be discarded. That would be crazy. We have both a feeling AND a reasoning nature. When I was able to disentangle my feelings from the lies and deceptions, I was able to move on and leave the unhealthy aspects behind. The feelings I had that brought me to Knowledge and kept me involved for twenty years were never bad; they just needed to be balanced by my reasoning mind, for my own protection. It's such a relief not to have to sacrifice honesty in order to feel good. CPG's post could have been me talking, one week after discovering EPO. I just didn't post it on the forum back then. We all reach conclusions at different times, in different ways. It's been interesting to hear about how Long Beach '97 was the final drip for so many people. Looking back on it, I can see why. Yet for me it was the begining of some major drips, but didn't scare me off. It WAS the begining of a deeper questioning process for me. Yet I hung in there for another three years, and even became more involved with "participation". The final drip for me was the creepy trainings, the propagation/aspirant process, with it's color coded videos and double messages, and Maharaji himself, especially as he appeared in the Atlanta Training video, which was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. It's worth noting that all those were RECENT events, not stories from 30 years ago. I haven't commented much on John MacGregor's postings about the Trainings, because I've been busy with other stuff. But those posts have been really important to me. They explain SO much. Reading the posts, I could hear the voice of our communities Industrial Strength Church Ladies, who had attended many of these trainings. They often spoke word for word the same things John had said were taught in the trainings. The pretense of having democracy, while insisting on total unanimity in all decisions, was a farce. One Industrial Strength Churchlady could hold up the entire committee indefinitly, untill all agreed to the agenda that had been planned all along. I saw it as a process to wear you down and fit you in, or force you out. Yet many committee members were perfectly comfortable with that. One member even told me that as a businessman, he found my criticisms valid, but that because this work was being done for Maharaji, ordinary standards did not apply. He didn't think that sounded strange at all! CPG seems to have found his participation experience very satisfying. I wonder if he read many of John MacGregor's posts about the trainings? Not to mention the numerous other people who have also posted about this. CPG's idea of "brainwashing" seems to along the lines of the kind that was portrayed in the movie "The Manchurian Candidate". Very extreme, brainwashing totally against a persons will. He's right, about that sort of thing being disproven. What CPG perhaps has not considered is the much more subtle manipulation by various cults, which needs the cooperation of the person being manipulated. The cooperation of the target is needed, they only need to be lured in and influcenced, then manipulated without realizing what is happening. If you can't see the manipulation, then for YOU, it doesn't exist. The manipulating handle, or switch, is your FEELINGS. Knowledge is all about feeling something, and Maharaji is the Master who controls the switch to that. Yet once you have identified the switch, you can control it yourself. I still have those Premie feelings; I just know where the switch is now, and can turn it on and off myself. It's often been said in Maharaji's World of Knowledge, that you need a living Master to interact with. In India, gurus often live in the communities that they serve, and their devotee's have actual access to the guru. With Maharaji, he doesn't know who most of us are, he doesn't answer letters or emails, he doesn't answer questions. He wants his devotees to just shut up and listen. In this case, where is the advantatge of having a Living Master? How is having an imaginary relationship with a fictional stage and screen persona any different from worshiping a dead master? Belief is Relief, as Maharaji himself has said in recent times. In both cases, it's all occuring in the imagination. In both cases, the imagination can produce good feelings that are real. I don't deny the feelings. But the feelings still don't make the relationship real. Imagination is a very powerful thing. A charsimatic leader can capture the imagination and use it to manipulate. Especially when information about him is controlled and hidden, when his teachings are secret and his history constantly revised. I know too, that over my two years of really questioning, I had to reexamine the things that Maharaji has been saying over the years, in the past and in more recent times. It became apparent to me that Maharaji contraticts himself a lot, and that I got into the habit of simply disregarding some things he said, and not trying to make sense of it all, but to just concentrate on the "feeling". It's no wonder premies have a hard time thinking straight about what Maharaji says. Actually looking at what he is saying, ALL of it, not just the parts I was comfortable with, helped me to see what I was involved with, and what a mind-fuck it was. The good bits I enjoyed were available from many other sources, as were the "secret" techiniques. When you look at EVERYTHING he says, his trip starts to seem very self-serving. The Atlanta Training Video confirmed my worst fears about this. It was a dagger in my Premie Heart. Yet, many of the Premies on our local committee found the video wonderfull and inspiring, and recommended it highly! I found it offensive and insulting, even hurtful. Maharaji seemed like an arrogant, disrespectful little jerk. I cried, I really did. I came down with flu and was sick for weeks afterward. I don't know what CPG really needs, for the penny to drop. I can only think that it's an open heart and and open mind, and time. Time to sort out the many things there are to consider; time to let an understanding develop, that includes all information available, not only about Maharaji but also the dynamics of cults and belief systems, and feelings and their sources. Time to separate the wheat from the chaf, and to honor and preserve the good from all his experiences with M & K, and take it with him if he chooses to move on. But in the end only he can decide that for himself. It MUST be his right to choose. All we can do is provide alternate information. The choice will always be his.

Subject: When will the penny drop? From: Will To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 17:41:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A central concept that premies are operating under is the idea that their experience of Knowledge is connected somehow to Prem Rawat. But when you divorce Prem Rawat, your experience doesn't change in the slightest! I guess premies don't believe that. California Premie Guy seems to think that he might leave Rawat some day, but that he will never quit the practice of Knowledge that gives him some kind of good experience, because he says that he knows that that experience is real. But you can divorce the four techniques and still nothing changes! The 'heart' feels the feeling of love, period, and you can't force the issue. You can't stick love into yourself. And you certainly can't stick God into yourself. A strong premie argument is why should I give it up if it is working for me. And even when you know that it isn't working the way they think it's working, there's nothing you can say. It's like a child who loves his toys and thinks he will always love them. Every person has to follow their own path as they see fit, and even though there is a strong urge to argue, it's only what your own voice tells you that you really listen to. People move on only when they are really done cooking. You can't get the turkey cooked sooner by turning up the heat. But still, I must say, it seems to me, reading CPG's latest post, that Prem Rawat takes his students and turns their sword of discrimination into a rubber yardstick of rationalization. CPG mentions the smoking and critcizes exes for acting like smoking is some kind of sin, thus closing his eyes to the obvious implications. If Rawat were really as grateful for his breath as he claims to be, then I hardly think he would defile it with the poisons of tobacoo smoke. The point is that Prem Rawat seems to be more of an ordinary Joe Blow than a pefectly realized drinker of divine nectar. Then they will grant you that Prem Rawat is 'human,' but they continue to hope that there's darshan in Amaroo. Shouldn't the sword of discrimination be coming down here somewhere?

Subject: Wow! Great post From: Tonette To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 11:25:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You negative and frequent poster. You spend ALL your time here! NOT! What a read. Beautiful. And your agenda is????????? Certainly not anything I would be ashamed of. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: To CS From: AV To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 06:56:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just read your post, it helped me immensely with stuff coming up at the moment......thanx v. much

Subject: **** Best of Forum! - Premies please read! ! **** From: JHB To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 06:55:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chuck, This is the finest post to a premie I have ever read here. Thank you. John.

Subject: A few things bother me, CPG From: PatC To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 03:09:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''The early statements re; god-in-a-bod- In those old videos i still see a little kid, one who grew up immersed in that indian culture that accepted the kinds of statements he made until he grew up. I never really bought the literal translation of some of those statements; thinking about it now I don't even really understand what he was trying to say. To me they are statements reflecting another culture that I don't know and can't pretend to understand.'' How can you not buy the literal translation if you don't know what it means in the first place? I think you are being too clever with words here. None of us REALLY knew what he was he talking about but HE knew what he was talking about or so we assumed since he was the master of this knowledge. You're being coy. You also said: ''When I try to relate it to how I grew up understanding god/jesus, i realize what i believed as a kid doesnt make sense to me now either. it all short circuits for me there, as i realize i know he is special to me and certainly human.'' I know that really sums it all up for you and most of the premies I know. He is special to you. That bothers me too but there's nothing I can say to change that because you are hooked to him by thinking that K is god and that god is within you. To me that's just pure religion, belief. There is absolutely no proof that K is anything else but brain chemistry and bhakti-juju. I hope that you one day understand entheogenic research and also study the psychology of the guru business and other revivalist and charismatic religions. Then you said: ''It is equally likely the story (the cyclist manslaughter) is a complete fabrication. Nothing here at all; certainly nothing to abandon my teacher for.'' But you quickly add: ''Jagdeo is the most disturbing issue because i believe Jagdeo did commit those crimes....'' There's not much more ''proof'' about Jagdeo's crimes than there is about the cyclist. Why would you choose to ''believe'' the allegations against Jagdeo but not Rawat? Oh, I know - because Rawat is special to you. You conclude: ''Patrick and Chuck- I do appreciate your offer of dinner, and If you would still like I will ask Bill of Ric where your restaurant is and stop by and say hello sometime. BTW, I would never have invited someone not actively involved in K to the KIT, although ironically it was the most democratically run group event I have every participated in.'' The invitation definitely still stands. I am looking forward to meeting you again. I think you have been the most honest and respectful premie ever to take the time to argue with any of us here. I thank you for that. Will you be having red or white wine with dinner, sir? ooops! Nearly forgot - you said: ''BTW, I would never have invited someone not actively involved in K to the KIT...'' Why? Embarassingly cult-like, like Scientology trainings? PS Yes, there is some negativity here but quite a few of us see contributing to this discussion as a positive thing - something that will add to sum of human knowledge not detract from it. We are critiquing a phenomenon that we experienced first hand and think is a NEGATIVE thing for western civilization and sanity. How can any positivity come from the idea of a ''special person,'' a ''master,'' and a ''special K'' with special secret techniques? Too much primitve juju and nod-nod wink-wink BS (Belief System) mumbo-jumbo. Not sane, scientific and objective. Too much like a scam at worst and a cult at best. Not kosher. Not American. Not open and democratic. That's been my objection. Not the 14 objections as I said before. My objection is that it is a dangerous and primitive religion. PPS I don't like the ''fat'' jokes either. Too silly and sophomoric. But I love Thelma's take on the guru scam.and don't forget to get some Doggie darshan while you're there. :C)

Subject: To Pat re.Thelma's site From: Happie Frenchie To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 15:45:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, Pat I don't know if CPG went to browse thru Thelm'a site, but I did, and it is just wonderful ! I laughed so much when I saw the krishna-crowned pets pix and I cried when I read the tale of that lovely little blind dog who 'made the transition'. But on a more serious note, I read with great interest Faqir Chand's interview and book excerpts that are linked to Thelma's site. There was a man who seemed to be the antithesis of what M is and stands for... yep, a lot to think about there. It would make good reading for those who have questions about M.' endless quest for cash, fame and status, don't you think ? Hope this finds you well. Love La petite grenouille

Subject: To petite grenouille re.Thelma's site From: PatC To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 16:01:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thelma's site was actually done by Chuck, my partner of 20 years, using a character (Thelma) that I invented for another website that I did. I am pleased that it not only amused you but that you found Faqir Chand's ideas interesting. It was Chand's ideas that really made Chuck and I take a another look at Rawat.

Subject: Re: To petite grenouille re.Thelma's site From: Happie Frenchie To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 16:15:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are those your pets ? I'm not kidding, I was really crying when I read the story of your lovely little dog. You see, what disturbed me the most about M, and what made me leave K, was his outrageous arrogance and his total lack of caring and compassion for the little creatures that we all are - not to mention his overt and nauseating display of wealth and greed. And that caring and compassion he so lacks is what I found behing the story of that little dog. It was so humourous, and yet so loving. And you know what else touched me ? That photograph of Fakir Chand at the end of the interview. So little, so old, so humble. I wish I lived in S.F. We'd have so much to talk about ! You see, I was right when I posted to you last week 'for all I know, we could be best of pals.' I'm sure we would be ! A bientot, Petite Grenouille

Subject: Yes, those are our dogs From: PatC To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 17:11:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: None of them are perfect. They were all saved by a friend of mine because no one wanted them; they were sick or old or blind. Marjie the blind one belonged to a homeless person. One of the big things I never liked about M was that he did not like dogs. He always said ugly things about dogs- they were stupid etc. Oh, yes, we will become good friends. I know.

Subject: I LOVE DOG'S! From: Marshall To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 21:30:24 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: I have a woderful dog whom I love so so much. She is 2 last month and I got her on a whim when she was 8 weeks old. I had to teach her how to drink water. My friend(sort of) who is an old school premie, who practices in the traditional old school superpremie style doesn't like dogs either because gooroo puts dogs down. He said that since dogs can't get knowledge they are worthless or something along those lines, like my dog will need to reincarnate as a person eventually so that it can advance or whatever. Question, if rawat hates dogs why does he have them? Does anybody remember that link that G's Mom put on here a few years back where Guru Maharaj ji's dogs were on a web site for movie star dog trainers along side Libereace and Bruce Willis' mutts? That was a crack up, I wonder if that's still there? Whatever happened to the whole reincarnation angle of premiehood anyway? now that I think about it, wasn't that part of it? Must of been those meddlesome mahatma's!

Subject: What about St. Joeseph's Academy, CPG? From: Gail To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 15:19:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji knew what he was say re the LORD OF THE UNIVERSE. He went to a Catholic school for 9 years. He remained a Hindu, but he was taught about the Christain belief system. What about that, eh? He knew what westerners would take that to mean. He knew that if you get enough people to repeat this nonsense it becomes true!

Subject: Yes, important, excellent point, Gail! From: Jim To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 16:22:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's definitely something to remember next time some premie tries to say that all that incarnation of God stuff didn't mean that much considering the hindu context and all. I mean, we all know that anyway, those of us who were there. Or just the documentary proof is overwhelming. But this is yet another layer of inescapable evidence. Thanks.

Subject: If it were a snake it would've bit us From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 17:14:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nine years of Catholic education is more than I had. Another of those obvious facts that I forgot about Rawat. He knew all about Christian messianism and ran with it all the way to the bank.

Subject: Re: What about St. Joeseph's Academy, CPG? From: PatC To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 15:35:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had not thought of that, Gail. Very good. Of course 9 years in a Catholic school would have made Rawat aware of what Jesus the Messiah and the significance of the Second Coming was. Well maybe he would have understood if he were not such an idiot.

Subject: CPG-and the Truth about M. From: RichMandrake To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 02:32:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have to admit...that the strategy that CPG appears to use in his Post Above...would be the Strategy I would use if I was one of Maharaji's Henchman/Loyalists..and I was trying to figure out a way to discredit the many very substantiated allegations of Maharaji's fraudulent and deceptive Behaviors that have been exposed On Ex-Premie.Org. Here is the strategy I would use: Pretend to be a sincerely waivering premie...Further pretend to have serious concerns about some of the Allegations made about Maharaji. ( Make sure that those you have concerns about are the ones which depend on the testimony of the fewest number of people so that the great majority of us do not have DIRECT knowledge of their validity)...Then feign a process of sincere investigation...After this period of investigation...minimize those charges which you cannot directly refute..(such as the 14 objections)..and cast doubt upon those charges that have any possible ambiguity to the evidence..Even if the Sum total of the evidence is overwhelmingly Incriminating (to Maharaji). Ultimately just pretend that what is True isnt..or if it is...its not really important.. All Of this, I would try to do with as cordial a presentation as possible, while pointing out that many of Maharaji's detractors who post here are 'natering nabobs of negativism' who need to get a life. I would most likely do this simply out of the momentum of my own mindless devotion to Maharaji. I might even believe that I was doing the right thing..because, having listened to the voice of Maharaji as my conscience for so long... I can no longer her the voice Of my own true Conscience... Some part of me would know that I was simply being an apologist for the inexcusable...that I was covering up for the Massive Deceit and Fraud that Maharaji had perptrated on Me..and all Premies...But I would also know that there might be some REAL Waivering premies...out there who would read my Post and my absurdly Reached conclusions and substitute my specious reasoning for any real investigation on their Part. Thus keeping them in the fold as dues paying members of the Cult of Prem Rawat. And reinforcing the Denial that keeps me from having to face the truth in my own life. I can not prove that this is what CPG is doing any more than I can prove that Maharaji is not the Lord...but i think the odds are about the same on the truth of both assumptions...good work CPG...

Subject: CPG-and the Truth about M. From: RichMandrake To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 02:32:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have to admit...that the strategy that CPG appears to use in his Post Above...would be the Strategy I would use if I was one of Maharaji's Henchman/Loyalists..and I was trying to figure out a way to discredit the many very substantiated allegations of Maharaji's fraudulent and deceptive Behaviors that have been exposed On Ex-Premie.Org. Here is the strategy I would use: Pretend to be a sincerely waivering premie...Further pretend to have serious concerns about some of the Allegations made about Maharaji. ( Make sure that those you have concerns about are the ones which depend on the testimony of the fewest number of people so that the great majority of us do not have DIRECT knowledge of their validity)...Then feign a process of sincere investigation...After this period of investigation...minimize those charges which you cannot directly refute..(such as the 14 objections)..and cast doubt upon those charges that have any possible ambiguity to the evidence..Even if the Sum total of the evidence is overwhelmingly Incriminating (to Maharaji). Ultimately just pretend that what is True isnt..or if it is...its not really important.. All Of this, I would try to do with as cordial a presentation as possible, while pointing out that many of Maharaji's detractors who post here are 'natering nabobs of negativism' who need to get a life. I would most likely do this simply out of the momentum of my own mindless devotion to Maharaji. I might even believe that I was doing the right thing..because, having listened to the voice of Maharaji as my conscience for so long... I can no longer her the voice Of my own true Conscience... Some part of me would know that I was simply being an apologist for the inexcusable...that I was covering up for the Massive Deceit and Fraud that Maharaji had perptrated on Me..and all Premies...But I would also know that there might be some REAL Waivering premies...out there who would read my Post and my absurdly Reached conclusions and substitute my specious reasoning for any real investigation on their Part. Thus keeping them in the fold as dues paying members of the Cult of Prem Rawat. And reinforcing the Denial that keeps me from having to face the truth in my own life. I can not prove that this is what CPG is doing any more than I can prove that Maharaji is not the Lord...but i think the odds are about the same on the truth of both assumptions...good work CPG...

Subject: Amazing From: Jim To: CPG Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 23:55:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Amazing how negotiable truth and ethics are when you're in a cult, isn't it? Have a good one.

Subject: toldya he's a troll... From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 00:18:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pure cult apologist.

Subject: Premie does not equal troll From: Jim To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 00:33:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry, There's a big difference, isn't there?

Subject: Premie does not equal troll From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 00:45:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sometimes not. I just can't believe anyone can come here, read the material on EPO, ask sincere questions and still have the opinion this guy has. He's gotta be an old premie poster renamed, or a guy sent from the cult to try to influence people. He's gotta be. Otherwise, my faith in mankind has taken another hit...

Subject: I wish he was a troll!! From: Tonette To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 11:32:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God I hope he is. How can a seemingly intelligent, sincere guy/person/human being, come asking questions, seeking information and after getting the kind of reply's he did, not be able to add two and two? I hope he is a troll. The alternative is saddening to me. Makes me want to cry. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: Re: I wish he was a troll!! From: beenreading To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 13:22:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know, I too am sorry to say that there are people just like CPG who can't add two plus two because they've been taught for sooooo many years that two plus two just isn't an equation any more. The brainwashing. Somewhere, down deep in his soul, a spark of this information is resonating as truth and it may be festering and hopefully he'll end up just like the all the ex's because the drips will only flame the spark. A premie I was once close to is in the same place as CPG and CANNOT add the equation - even though it is there in front of him - because he is so brainwashed. Not many other things have made me so sad in my life to see this happen to someone I care about. All of you, count yourselves as lucky people to have made it 'out'. Lucky also to have the experiences you each have - they have shaped you to be who you each are today. I'll keep reading once in a while......

Subject: How lame, CPG From: Marshall To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 01:24:41 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: I don't know what to think of this. CPG raises some semi-valid points, if you stretch it. He can't seem to accept, though, that jagdeo all the way raped at least one little girl, not just fondled CPG, all the way raped. This girl's father talked directly to gmj, directly(one to one). Over two years ago. Nothing has been done about any of this. Nothing is resolved. Nothing! That's my understanding of the facts. Do you understand that CPG? Do you? I don't think so. It was explained to you ad infinitum. Are you still there CPG? Are you listening? Did you bail? As far as wasting time on negative activity. I do plenty, believe me I am very busy and creative etc, I have a very full life. I'm healthy, I have lot's of energy and I don't watch much T.V. I prefer reading and responding here. Some people read novels. Whatever. I know a guy who meditates 4 hours a day, he's an old school premie. So much for your "negative" insults CPG, and Most importantly I don't feel it's negative to discuss and examine what I feel is a lame and declining 1970's personality cult, asshole. If you are even a real person, which I doubt, you are missing the boat, missing the plot, etc. So for the last time wake up and smell the cofee, just kidding,no forget it go back to sleep and sleepwalk through the rest of your life till you die with all your premie pals(pun intended). As far as the fat jokes, the reason that they're ok, is that rawat's the only person who claims to be perfect. Perfect! couldnt he shed a few pounds? Couldn't he? "Not a leaf moves"? Good Day to you sir, Marshall

Subject: Re: How lame, CPG From: Bolly Shri To: Marshall Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 07:48:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right on Marshal

Subject: What's with the Paypal/ Perky logo? From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 22:29:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's up?

Subject: I took a few pointers from the Cap'n From: gerry To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 22:36:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And He says, 'sex sells.' So I thought, 'what the heck, donations have been down lately, why not listen to the Master?'

Subject: But I can't see the graphic [nt] From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 23:13:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What, you don't like tits? From: gerry To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 00:22:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh that explains it. It's a gif which sits on some website in the UK where Chris parked it. I'll park it some where closer and make it a jpg. Manana.

Subject: Clever, but . . . From: Richard To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 13:02:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: With the graphic up there it takes longer to load the page and it pushes the posts further down the page. In fact, I'd prefer to have all the intro text at the top moved elsewhere for newbies to read before posting. BTW: Do you know why the last post in the View All version is always Jim's That's it in a nutshell post? Been like that for awhile. One of those mysteries of the internet?

Subject: That's it in a nutshell From: gerry To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 13:14:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, Jim's post appearing where it does, saying what is says, is proof of intelligent design, if you ask me. I didn't do it, Jim didn't do it, Pat didn't do so god exists. I've been chatting on AG about another page linked to this which could house all the junk I could clutter it with. I could then post a list of rules and regulations 360 million bytes long or maybe post some altered images or something. I think I'll do it. Can you dash me up a quick design?

Subject: Re: That's it in a nutshell From: Richard To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 14:10:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Agree that Jim's post verifies a psycho-spriritual parallel universe with a sense of humor. Can you dash me up a quick design? A design for what exactly? Love to help now but will have to take a rain check (NW joke.) My dad's recovering from hip surgery, my sister is also in the hospital and I'm attending my brother's wedding in San Diego this weekend. Gee, maybe I should have stayed with the idea that I had no family except in the ashram.

Subject: Re: Clever, but . . . From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 13:09:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've suggested to Gerry that he registers a domain name such as www.ex-premieofrum.org and puts it on a separate page. That can be page one of the forum with all the guidelines, technical tips and links. It also enables us to enter the forum into search engines which you cannot do with Hotboards. You asked: ''Do you know why the last post in the View All version is always Jim's That's it in a nutshell post? Been like that for awhile. One of those mysteries of the internet?'' That's our mascot. Just kidding. It's a glitch but a serendipitous one.

Subject: in the bosom of the Lord ... From: cq To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 12:53:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How to stay abreast of the competition? Who ter say? www.dreamwater.net/planetqwerty/Images/tprfTitLogo.gif

Subject: more cheek From: blush... To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 08:53:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: well... if this doesn't work can you tell me how to put up a picture? www.linknet.com.au/trial/kmaLogo.jpg

Subject: Re: more cheek From: cq To: blush... Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 12:29:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice one! How about "The Talking out of my Arse Foundation"? PS - hope all's well in Mullumbimby

Subject: now where'd that pic go? From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 14:17:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: www.dreamwater.net/planetqwerty/Images/tprfTitLogo.jpg

Subject: jeezonagerbil... sorry 'bout this folks From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 15:12:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: mama remind me! www.dur.ac.uk/c.q.giles/tprfTitLogo.gif

Subject: Just about to give milk From: Tonette To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 12:14:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's only natural since the belly is obviously pregnant. Is this some sort of Freudian slip? Did Maharaji get enough suckling as an infant or did his mom do the premie gig and give him too much? I still think that the logo is the referance to his never ending love of Rolls Royce cars. Either way, it really is hilarious! Tonette

Subject: There you go AGAIN... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 21:07:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You naughty ex-students are so disrespectful, trying to make everything Maharaji, Oops, I mean, Prem Rawat, does seem dirty and wrong. Shame on you! However, I think the joke is on YOU this time ()). You see, Prem Rawat isn't a good christian, or even a good hindu. He's not constrained by any such silly belief systems. Therefore, He is free to INTENTIONALLY have a pair of boobies as the corporate logo for His Foundation. He did that because He is FUN. Those of us who are syncronized know and understand this, and are grateful for it, too. WE aren't busy filtering out the good like you ex-student persons. Once again, something you've tried to make seem like a bad thing, I see as a GOOD thing. Andrea Eriksonn :), Who had to close down her own website, 'Please Consider This... not THAT', because of the naughty, disrespectful question-mongering of the ex-students of Prem Rawat. You silly, silly ex-students! Knowledge isn't for people with QUESTIONS! All modern PWK's know that! B)

Subject: You've got a beautiful website, Andrea From: Thelma the Church Lady To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 22:22:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Our mutual friend, Dot Munchbutt, first showed it to me. It really is so precious. Please Consider This... not THAT www.geocities.com/listen2yerheart/pleaseconsiderthisnotthat.htm

Subject: OMG! Hardeharharharh!! nt From: Tonette To: Thelma the Church Lady Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 12:08:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: OK if that's how you feel From: Sir Dave To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 21:28:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Show us yer tits!

Subject: How RUDE... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 21:47:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... but just what I would expect from the 'rotten vegetable bin' crowd. I may be nice, but even I have limits. And no you CAN'T see them, they are only for my husband, and The Master (if He asks), because He is my Lover and my Friend, just like the song says. And don't tell me that He doesn't even know my name, and doesn't want to know. He said that in one of His videos, precisely because it ISN'T important. That was the whole point! If you wern't so busy filtering out the good, you'd see that. No wonder you've thrown away the gift of Knowledge. You were one of those men who wore sari's and was just in it so you could leer at Prem Rawat doing the Wobble Dance! Yes, I'm on to you, you don't fool me for one minute, Mr. Smarty pants, one-track MIND. :|

Subject: OK, I guess but why did they have to be FAKE too? From: Jim To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 21:21:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Even the official Prem Rawat Foundation titties are fake. That's what gets me. It's disturbing, really.

Subject: And YOU, Mr. Hotshot lawyer-MEANIE...... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 22:01:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You filter out the good more than anyone else here. I suppose if He used REAL boobies for His logo, you would be be complaining that He was a pornographer. There is just no pleasing some people. I'm suprised you haven't said "The boobs are as fake as His Knowlege". I'll bet that YOU used to wear a sari, too, didn't you? Don't tell me, I KNOW! You have no idea how much fun Prem Rawat really is! I'm sure He WANTED to have nipples on the logo, but the prudish, uptight church-ladies of Elan Vital probably removed them. They have been spoiling the fun for years, which is why Prem Rawat if finally getting rid of them. I'd say thank God, but I agree with Prem Rawat's advice: "Don't thank God, thank The Master". If Prem Rawat starts to dance again, with EV out of the way, I'll bet you'll be sorry then! Now all you have is that Rude Mr. Drek's site, with the feeble rendering of the Wobble Dance. Not nearly as good at the real thing. Who's "sari" now, eh? :p ()) |D

Subject: Oooooh, Andrea From: Dickie Pwickie To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 11:05:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You tell 'm Andrea. I get such a, you know, Special Feeling in, err uh, That Place when you talk about the Master and nipples in the same post. I really, really, really like this new way of talking about Knowledge. You must have attended a special Knowledge Info Training and I can only pray to go to one soon. Maybe after Amaroo, once I come down from the Darshan high and sell some more of my stuff. Yours in the Foundation, DP

Subject: Too bad Joe wasn't here From: Jim To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 22:33:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The reason I say that is that Joe, I think it's fair to say, is even more negative than me. He's like really negative. But I get your point(s). :)

Subject: Excellent! From: Jim To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 15:23:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good work, Chris. Good improvement on Dave's orange-tips. I wonder if Maharaji's seen this yet? Too funny. But it needs some permanent placement somewhere.

Subject: Excellent? well, dammit, I persevered ... From: cq To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 15:40:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Man you would not believe how much trouble I had getting that pic online. Time to get a new host server methinks (one that can handle not just jpegs, but tifs, gifs and bmps as well). OK. Got there in the end. Now how about this - Divine Light Mission - DLM superseded by Elan Vital Incorporated - EVI. One much the same as the other? I'd say so. OK, time for an anagram: If DLM=EVI, what's that spell? (memories of Woodstock?) I said what's that spell? DLM=EVI ? M=DEVIL !!!!! Ha hahahahahahahhahahhah ... (echoing maniacal laughter) Later ... don't sweat it folks, it's just a coincidence. thinks ... tell it to the Goo!

Subject: More ANAGRAMS ! From: Carl To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 14:57:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know they're sophomoric, but ya got me goin'. So I fired up the old anagram generator and here's a few thought-provoking ones from the letters comprising 'Prempal Singh Rawat': Simpler pagan wrath. Grasp prenatal whim. Warm hangar tipples. Wish-trampler pagan. Earthman pig sprawl. Pagan warmth perils. Pre-pagan sham twirl. Alarming! Harps wept. Satan harp grew limp. Penis warmth gal rap. Gala hrs. entrap wimp. Twerp spin, gala harm. Palm wrath penis rag. Pants whirl rampage. Ralph wets pagan rim. Grin warmth appeals. There's plenty more, but you get the idea.

Subject: Earthman Pig Sprawl ! From: Bai Ji To: Carl Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 21:27:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gets my vote and immediate attention. It reminds me of something Captain good Vibes would call Prem Pal SINGH Rawat. I have noticed that he has ommitted to include this part of his name from the recent revision. Maybe he's just keeping something up his hand stitched sleeve for the next change. Coming to a Cult near you.

Subject: 2 Carl re anagrins! From: AV To: Carl Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 15:49:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm gonna start a band just so I can release an album called EARTHMAN PIG SPRAWL!!! Lineup : 4 bass saxophones, sackbutt, prepared piano, unprepared Hammond, positively scared witless tumba player, 8 counter tenors, several other singers who can't count, a french horn (somebody has to drag...), and two baroque oboes playing in high unison so everbody knows what a minor second should sound like......oh, and lots of ice cream. p.s. Ralph can play bass if his gets rid of his pagan hangup.

Subject: O, the horror, the horror From: Carl To: AV Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 17:59:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You may wish to dub in a choir of adenoidal yodelers, and a troop of beginner bagpipers. I have a friend who knows someone into Tibetan throat singing. That would lend a colorful overtone to the proceedings. And don't forget musical saws. Very theremin-like, a necessary texture for any self-respecting project these days.

Subject: Musical whaaaaa??? From: AV To: Carl Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 04:26:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: are musical saws like musical 'heards?' ((( SFX of moo's to the tune of ride of the valkyries . . . .helicopter shot of last roundup ))) . . . .(I'll start the car....)

Subject: You don't have musical saws? / ot From: Carl To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 05:37:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The artiste bends and variably contorts a premium quality carpenters saw, usually by bracing the small end of the saw blade against the floor and then pushing down from the handle end to bow the saw blade into an arc. Then the artiste applies a violin or cello bow crosswise back-and-forth to the smoother of the two edges of the saw blade (NOT the toothed edge) in much the same manner one would apply a bow to the strings of a cello, say. The resultant sound has pitch definition by virtue of the variable force and angle of arc of the bowed saw blade as controlled by the artiste. The sound is further distinguished by its spookiness, an all-surrounding otherworldly effect with a characteristically smooth portamento between pitches. Indeed, the sound is much like a Theremin and at a fraction of the cost. Folk technology prevails! I believe one could apply instead of a violin bow a percussive implement, perhaps a rubber mallet, against the saw blade to achieve a sound. Next time you're at the hardware store go play in the saw department. The knowledgeable proprietor would be only too glad to help you select the appropriate 'Strad'.

Subject: Re: You don't have musical saws? / ot From: AV To: Carl Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 08:13:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The knowledgeable proprietor would be only too glad to help you select the appropriate 'Strad' A guy I knew went to a garage sale and beneath a pile of oddments found, to his amazement, a Stradivarius and a Rembrandt. He gave the owner a few bucks and immediately rushed off the the big down town antique dealer. 'LOOK AT THESE! ' he cried... 'HOW MUCH ARE THEY WORTH???' ' ...about ten bucks' said the dealer 'TEN BUCKS!!!! BUT THATS A STRAD AND A REMBRANDT!!!' 'Correct...' said the dealer '...but Stradivarius was a lame duck at painting, and Rembrandt couldn't make a decent violin to save his butt!!!!' ((((( D'oh!!! )))) BTW, I do know what a musical saw is, just couldn't get that picture of flying Cows outamy head...

Subject: Speaking of Ralph . . . From: Carl To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 12:56:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PSR = Inept Ralph warm gas. Inept Ralph wags arm. Harm law, inept grasp.

Subject: New pic of Avatars in And It Is Divine From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:47:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Click on the above link and then go to the last picture which is listed on the left hand menu. These guys are in God consciousness - you can tell! And It Is Divine www.geocities.com/lord_haharaji/Hoho/Gallery/index.htm

Subject: Perfecto! Sir D From: New-Age Redneck To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 12:48:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Shame on me.... I'd never experienced the bliss of those holy personages and pictures..... ohhhhhh, the bliss deep within-inside. I especially liked the 'flying ace' and 'two tier toilets.' They answer two of my unanswered questions: Where are we going, dear M? What do you really think of us, oh lard-butt? Really well done, Dave.... :)

Subject: The 'Glums'? Guy on right is Bhole Ji From: Carl To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 10:47:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The guy on the left is Satpal's oldest son Shradhey Ji. But that is Bhole Ji for sure on the right.

Subject: You're right of course From: Sir Dave To: Carl Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 11:13:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought ol' Bal Bagwan Ji had changed a bit. I'll correct that and also include a good pic of Satpal too.

Subject: being around Maharaji From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 08:47:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought I'd just bring this over from EPO for people to read in case they haven't already seen it. It was in a post from Disculta,(hope you don't mind, Disculta) May 2001. One of my best friends in the world, who wants to remain anon for a little longer, but reads here and will soon post, sent me these e-mails about the experience of being an instructor for Maharaji. After the first one, I asked his permission to post it, and he sent me the second, plus permission. Warning, this is powerful stuff: First letter: 'There was a lot I liked in 5. Talk of the goings on at Amaroo made me feel a bit ill. The whole vibe of a middle school prom and the jealousies and social hegemony spured on by position and power plays... Yech, my attachment to that crap is still pretty strong, and was in fact a useful tool in extricating myself from the cult. The goings on at instructor trainings brought up more sucky feelings in me than I could stand. Some of it was truly terrible. Once, during a heated disscussion over the value of Psychology, during a break, a particular instuctor approached me at lunch with the most venemous look on his face. He started yelling at me in the lunchroom projecting his life's hate for anything smacking of self examination, targeting me out of his belief that I was one of those secretly against Maraji because I dealt with such things in my personal work. (In the conference, Maraji bit Psych. and anyone who practiced any form of it in the ass pretty hard.) Now this guy had his opportunity to vent years of hatred on me, somehow missing the fact that we're in the same room together, ostensibly for the same purpose. A lot of people were castigated at that conference, anyone who dealt with ' the mind' OOOOga booooga! Funny, the one forum letter talks of how regimented the programs and speakers had become... That was Loring Bakers -and a number of others- greatest criticism of me as an instructor; that I was too much myself, too much of me was in the presentation! (maybe that's because I cannot get up and speak to anybody like an automaton!) Whew, I can still feel my anger over that! Well, in fact, a lot of the anger I developed over that kind of poop gave me the strength to split. I wish your latvian get together was at another time, later in the summer.' Second letter: 'I guess the point of my expressing it is, how ironic it is that M. who speaks eloquently of how things fit together so beautifully in nature and life, seeks in his own personality, to divide and conquer in order to control. While trashing the study of psychology, and denigrating anyone involved with it, he created a division amongst the instructors that demonized those who had inclinations or experience there, that created deep levels of mistrust. In fact, his personality, like anyone's, was obviously run by the same defense mechanisms we all have. And like most, he seemed oblivious to them. All this was going on around the time of great family difficulty, as it was apparent in his sarcastic remarks that he and Marolyn were having problems. I believe that it was recommended that they get counseling. I think he resented that. Thus, all Psychologists were 'bad'. Pretty basic stuff. Actually, in hindsight, I remember - between bouts of anger that he would do that - feeling both surprised and sad that the 'Lord' would have a personality so riddled with defensivness. What was he so insecure about? But I dismissed all that quickly, feeling guilty myself for even attempting to understand the 'divine personality' in the same terms as I would anyone else. A number of other instructors however, came up to me and let me know they felt M. was dismissive and in fact needed help, and were talking to someone close enough to him to see if he could be convinced to receive counseling. Many others of course saw that as crass arrogance, and I was too confused by my own unwillingness to admit that what I was seeing was true. I was too insecure myself in M.'s presence to trust my own intelligence. Therefore, I denied and denied, casting myself into a terrible inner turmoil. I cried at night sometimes, to ease the pressure of fighting within myself over the seeming contradictions I saw. How can his behavior be so ... well, petty? I could understand him having emotional concerns and relationship problems, but to project them amongst his instructors and set them against eachother to fight and act out his own problems? That seemed so like the behavior exhibited in the unhealthy family structures of abusers and alcoholics. The secrets, (there were many) the need for M to be fawned over, (a lot!) the parties and such where the competition to be M.'s favorite, or have him notice you was indescribably thick as custard... It made me sick. In fact, after a while of being exposed to it, I hated being around him. My internal pressure increased the more I witnessed his petty behavior and felt the emotional competition among the instructors, the 'family' of M.'s world. Once, I won a contest – I scored highest on an instructor test - and won the 'opportunity' to have lunch with M. I couldn't eat. I couldn't talk to him. He seemed to dislike the whole thing as much as I did. It was all so contrived. There I was, in front of all the other Inst. having jumped highest over a stick, now getting the reward of sitting, with a few other notables, at M's table. People all around the room would turn around to look, as if for that one hour, I was a movie-star, the envy of everyone in the room. Along with the others at the table, I tried to make some small talk to 'open the door' and try to get comfortable. M. was disinterested, stared off in the distance - was somewhere else - and I felt like a big idiot. The whole thing, the pretense of it all was revolting. So I scarfed down my food, got up and left.It took every ounce of courage in me to walk out of that room. Every eye was on me. I had forty five minutes or so of 'bliss time' left, and I walked out on it, walked away from the Lord. The struggle within myself was tearing me apart. Were my perceptions correct? Did M. act like an insecure middle school bully, a hurt child not able to admit to his pain, afraid to simply show everyone his vulnerability and admit it like anyone. Were the other people in the room just being themselves, or was I right in sensing the dysfunctional family dynamics I felt was rampant there. Was I just full of my own shit? Was it all just my projection and I just couldn't handle it? I went outside and broke down, sobbing in disgust and bewilderment, unable to admit that the whole gathering looked and felt like the worst nightmares of my childhood, something I vowed never again to participate in for the rest of my life. Now, here it was again, as the answer to my prayer to serve God. I was heartbroken. At that evening's party, while M was surrounded by adoring women waiting on him hand and foot, lighting his cigarettes, pouring him drinks, and he enjoyed himself by making the guys do stupid humiliating things. Again, I questioned myself. Am I just jealous? Is it that I really want those girls to be fawning around me? Again, the same nausea overwhelmed me and I went back to my room. I wanted to be an instructer. I believed in knowledge, but I was deeply disturbed and afraid inside, because I was so confused about M. I juggled that pain for the next three years, giving talks and avoiding M. as much as I could. Yes, if you want, print this.... I feel too sick to my stomach even now to continue writting. More later... Disillusioned.' I think it all adds up to a clear picture, in the light of Bob Mishler's tapes, and in a way also in light of Maharaji's character and his own seeming confusion over his sense of identity. Love to all, Livia

Subject: Good grief!!! From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 14:31:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good grief!!! Thanks again to Disculta's friend for telling his difficult and troubling story. I recall this was posted some time ago, but alongside Dettmer's take on TPRF and Mishler's observations in 1976, a sharper picture of M emerges. I remember rationalizing M's behaviour with clever aphorisms such as: The closer you get to the flame, the hotter the fire and a favorite in Miami, The most powerful winds are closest to the calm eye of the hurricane. Calm eye indeed! Now his abusive behavior seems pathological and cannot be rationalized by any sane person. No wonder he dissed psychotherapy so much. To act as he has, he is obviously sitting on a powder keg of anger/grief and simply can't face it. Richard, amateur therapist

Subject: Is this in *BEST OF FORUM*??? From: RichMandrake To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 14:04:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It Definitely Should Be..Right Up near the TOP..a Beautiful..Powerful..Sincere...Sickening Post...

Subject: It's on EPO/yacht/forums [nt] From: Livia To: RichMandrake Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 17:51:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Whow! Around Maharaji ALL IS HELL From: salsa To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 11:52:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: thanks livia for posting this here. Amazing how the stupid, greedy asshole tortures people. Maharaji doesn't understand much of the 'world' ....and he is yet to be surprised by us....further. I hope we hear more from the instructor. very powerful stuff. At that evening's party, while M was surrounded by adoring women waiting on him hand and foot, lighting his cigeretts, pouring him drinks, and he enjoyed himself by making the guys do stupid humiliating things.... nice master of truth. that is the truth of life, aha. EAT SHIT MAHARAJI, YOU LOSER. YOU, PATHETIC BEING!

Subject: Re: Whoa! Around Maharaji ALL IS HELL From: Marshall To: salsa Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 13:17:00 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Disculta, This is kind of interesting to me '...making the guys do stupid humiliating things...' If you are around to read this Disculta, what, pray tell were the stupid humiliating things he had the 'guy's' do, while he, so to speak, monopolized the attention of all the ladies. This is so nauseating, like Disculta more or less said, What's up with all the childish, highschool, popularity contest vibe. How base!

Subject: Re: Whoa! Around Maharaji ALL IS HELL From: salsa To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 18:44:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i am not disculta.

Subject: Huh??? From: Marshall To: salsa Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 19:01:15 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Hello? Disculta is the person who was in instructor training at Amaroo. The person who I was refering to in my post. The same person that Livia quoted from in her post. The same person who witnessed the 'women pouring drinks for gmj while he humiliated the guy's' that you refered to in your post. Get it. Capiche? Do you agree with CPG about my mental ecumen(sic), or something?

Subject: marshall!! From: salsa To: Marshall Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:47:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you wrote under my message, you replied to it and that is why ia naswered that i am not disculta but salsa/silvia. Silvia, ex-premie forever. have fun!

Subject: Re: Huh??? From: Richard To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 19:08:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wrong. The former instructor trainee is a FOD = Friend of Disculta. Richard, another FOD

Subject: Right From: Disculta To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 19:45:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The former instructor is my good friend, and therefore is indeed a FOD (or a FOK, if you like), as are Richard and many good folks here. I emailed him and told him his letters were on their third printing, like one of the books in Oprah's book club. Maybe he'll pop by here. Hello to all and much love, Disculta (Katie Darling)

Subject: Re: Right From: Richard To: Disculta Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 22:29:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In this case, I'm honored to be called a FOK-head. ;) Richard, LOL at my own joke

Subject: Re: Right From: Marshall To: Disculta Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 20:24:02 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: oops, I over reacted I admit it. The trainee was Disculta's friend. F.O.D. I just got insulted that Salsa thought, that I thought, that SHE was Disculta. That would REALLY be stupid, right? Oh well whatever. What were the humiliating things gmj made the guy's do, anyway? Does anybody know?

Subject: Right ON! From: gerry To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 21:42:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marshall, this was just a linguistic misunderstanding. The spicey Ms. Salsa is an Argentinian beauty for whom English is a second language. :)

Subject: Re: Right ON, Ms Salsa! From: Marshall To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 00:49:49 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: I'm sorry Ms. Salsa, you Argentinian babe, please accept my humblest apologies. Thanks for the lookout, Ger. Later, Marshall

Subject: The Prem Rawat Foundation From: Michael Dettmers To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 09:16:57 (EDT) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: I’ve had a chance to reflect about the Prem Rawat Foundation and here is my take. When I was managing things for Maharaji, I came to the conclusion that he needed to became independently wealthy (independent of the need to live on fundraising and gifts, that is), if he really wanted to fulfill his mission as the benevolent giver of Knowledge to anyone who was interested. Even though he insisted that Knowledge has no price tag, followers ended up paying financially and otherwise for as long as they were trapped in his cult with its interpretation of Knowledge -- namely that it can only be realized through surrender to the Master as expressed in gratitude and participation (formerly referred to as devotion through service and financial support). Therefore, with the assistance of professional advisors and a great staff, we developed and implemented a strategy that was designed to make him independently wealthy. Once this goal was achieved, my presumption was that he would no longer need to do any fundraising whatsoever. He could use his money to pay for everything he wanted, whether personal or connected with giving people Knowledge. Of course, the seed money for creating this financial independence came from the gifts bestowed upon him from thousands of his devoted followers, but especially from those who owned businesses and gave him a stake in their various enterprises. The fruits of this strategy began to manifest at the time I left, so I know it had the potential to make him fabulously wealthy. Once freed from the need to engage in never ending fundraising, he could get rid of the DLM/Élan Vital type organizations he always detested and, in doing so, put his past behind him and re-invent his identity. Although he embraced that aspect of the strategy that was designed to make him personally wealthy and would do away with the need for Élan Vital, he was ambivalent and uncertain about how to re-invent his personal identity for fear that, if he weren’t Maharaji, who would worship him and give him money. I can only assume that he finally came to the conclusion that people in the West are no longer interested in the ‘surrender to the guru’ approach to spiritual enlightenment, and he began a process of systematically reinterpreting his past. Of all the lies and revisions that were put forth over the past few years, in this regard, I don’t believe Maharaji was ever comfortable with the attempt to justify his legitimacy as a bona fide guru by expounding upon the purity of his lineage. Maharaji doesn’t really believe that he was appointed as his father’s successor or that he inherited his father’s mantle. He often made the point to me that “no master walks in another master’s footsteps,” and that “a master has to make his own way.” Consequently, I believe that he has secretly resented that his accomplishments (as he sees them) were never fully recognized as the fruits of his own efforts and abilities. Instead, they were diminished because they were seen as achievements by a divine or supernatural person. In other words, his ego was bruised because it was trapped in a role he both relished and resented, even though it was the role and all that that implied, especially in the 70’s and early 80’s, that brought him the undeserved love and financial rewards that he squandered, abused and manipulated for his own selfish ends. We now learn that he has dropped the title “Maharaji” and has created the Prem Rawat Foundation. Assuming that he has amassed considerable wealth, I think this move is somewhat predictable. Having lived in the USA for so many years, I think he now fancies himself as a successful entrepreneur who has made it on his own a la Bill Gates. He has decided to shed the pretense of the guru charade and present himself as the benevolent giver of a gift he now calls “self-knowledge” through his newly created Foundation. In this new interpretation, he does not need to be Maharaji to lend legitimacy to who he is and what he does. He is Prem Rawat, a successful investor, inventor, and entrepreneur who employs some of his wealth to help make the world a better place. To that end, he has created the Prem Rawat Foundation in much the same way that many self-made men create Foundations to further some noble cause and, in doing so, leave behind a legacy. Will it work? I doubt it. As long as he continues to deny his past, and fails to act responsibly and accountably for the harm he has caused others, his past will continue to haunt him. Strangely, he continues to proceed as if the internet doesn’t exist or matter. His efforts to silence his critics by attacking them personally and shutting down internet sites that expose the blatant lies and revisionism he is promulgating about his past identity and the source of his wealth, have failed miserable. If anything, his critics will only become more vocal. If Maharaji were acting sincerely and authentically, before reinventing his persona as a public figure, he would first come clean with all of the people who believed in him and accepted him as he once presented himself. He would do this in open forums where he engaged in genuine dialogue, taking full responsibility for the negative consequences his assumed role as Maharaji produced in peoples lives, without fear of admitting his mistakes and apologizing for them. As an independently wealthy person, he would set up the Prem Rawat Foundation and appoint a Board of Trustees to adjudicate any legitimate claims brought forward by people who suffered financially and otherwise by following he, whom he now admits, is not, and was never, who and what he claimed to be. But, of course, Maharaji will never admit his mistakes, nor will he ever be proactive in righting the wrongs he has committed. Just look at how he has handled the Jagdeo matter. By proceeding as he is, he is simply perpetuating his role in life as a master con artist who has, once again, assumed a new identity to perpetuate his fraud.

Subject: My responses to your questions From: Michael Dettmers To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 12:44:05 (EDT) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: Some of you have asked some interesting and challenging questions to which I will offer my considered opinions without any pretense that what I have to say is the truth of the matter. Let me also say that I agree with jerry’s comment that my posts are not, and should not be considered, on a ‘higher plane’ than anyone else’s. Janet wants to know if my “team of advisors set him up so well, so self sustaining, that even if everyone deserted him right now, and all financial support ended, today, that he would not feel any financial change, no loss, no damage, thanks to how his income was set up?” I don’t know what his actual wealth or net worth is today but, in theory, her assumption is correct. Having said that, I take no special credit for helping Maharaji become independently wealthy. The real credit, if that is the correct way to characterize it, goes to those who supported him in big and small ways for so many years and especially to those who gave Maharaji a stake in their successful business ventures and, in doing so, made themselves and their shareholders, including Maharaji, wealthy. My team and I simply facilitated and organized this process. To cq and others, let me assure you that there was nothing illegal about this, and Maharaji paid whatever taxes were due on the proceeds. I considered this approach a better alternative to the never-ending fundraising campaigns with the accompanying need to distinguish between gifts to Maharaji, and donations to Élan Vital. My objective was to help Maharaji fulfill his stated desire to make Knowledge free with no financial strings attached, either before or after. cq: also wonders how my insider status could be “useful in making sure his current financial incarnation of 'The Prem Rawat Foundation' DOESN'T qualify for tax exemption.” Whatever my insider status was, it has long since become outdated. Financial and legal structures are not static, but evolve with changing times, requirements, laws and circumstances. I am quite certain that, as Maharaji’s wealth increased, so too did the means by which it is structured. But I have no reason to believe that he and his advisors, some of whom are the same people I worked with, would do anything illegal. Regarding the Prem Rawat Foundation, I don’t know what its legal structure is or is intended to be. If, however, it’s stated aims and objectives meet the standards for tax exemption, and if its administrators abide by those guidelines, there is not much anyone can do to prevent it. For me, the issue surrounding Maharaji’s accumulation of wealth is an ethical, not a legal, issue and, in many respects, the ethical issue extends beyond his accumulation of wealth. However pure and honest his intentions may have been when he began his mission, I presume that being worshiped and having his every whim obeyed from the time he was born must have warped his psyche. By the time I left, Maharaji was imbued with cynicism and arrogance, exacerbated, no doubt, by his excessive drinking. He appeared unmoved and without any appreciation for the tremendous amount of genuine love, care and devotion that was directed towards him. He simply took for granted that it was his due to be worshiped and showered with money. If anything, his attitude was that his devotees were not grateful enough for the opportunity to serve him. It was with this in mind that I came to the conclusions I did regarding his motives for creating the Prem Rawat Foundation. He sees himself as the center of the universe and everyone else is just a pawn in his game. Lesley asked what I thought and felt “about the way a false front was presented to the bulk of premies over how their donations were used, did you clearly realise this was happening at the time?” Maybe I’m naïve, but I always assumed that premies knew, for the most part, how their gifts and donations were being used or squandered, depending upon your perspective at the time. The residences, cars, and planes were on public display, and many premies were involved in building and/or maintaining them. Certainly the premies who gave Maharaji a stake in their businesses did so willingly and with the full knowledge that he was free to do with the proceeds as he liked. I understand that he has attempted to keep his $7 million dollar yacht a secret (an asset that was acquired long after I left) but presumably it was purchased with his own money and not the proceeds of any special fundraising drive. Of course, the x-rated stuff was kept secret, but then, how much does a case of cognac cost compared to a jet or a yacht. cq says I “seem to be saying that the way PR has gone (Prem Rawat, that is) is the way (I) wanted him to go, ie to re-invent himself.” I never recommended that Maharaji re-invent himself by dropping his title and reverting to his legal name. I felt strongly that he would be more effective in communicating his message if he dropped all of the trappings of guru worship and engaged with people more openly, fostering dialogue and understanding, rather than pontification on high as a diving oracle. Livia asked: “I distinctly remember him saying that there was always a 'satguru' in this world. Are you now saying he never even believed this in the first place??? And if he doesn't believe he is part of the 'lineage', then by what authority does he feel he can forbid the premies from revealing the techniques to anyone they like, when, as he must know, they can be found in books?” In the beginning, I’m sure that he bought into the orthodox notion about there always being a satguru in the world, that his father was the satguru before him, and that he is now the living satguru or master. It was an identity that he learned to embody from the time he was born. However, by dropping his title and creating the Prem Rawat Foundation, he is declaring that he no longer intends to be bound by that tradition. It's as if the Queen of England decided to abolish the monarchy, live on her accumulated wealth, and offer her services to England as a goodwill ambassador. That’s fine, but how did she accumulate her wealth in the first place, and what responsibility does she have to explain herself to her former subjects about her decision? Obviously, some will hail her decision, others will be disappointed, some will be angry or confused, but all who supported her and bowed to her deserve and will demand an explanation. Many, no doubt, will also demand an accounting of her finances and accumulated wealth because she was entitled to them only as the rightful heir to the throne, not as an ordinary citizen. Likewise, Maharaji is free to do what he wants, but he has an ethical responsibility to explain his actions and account for the wealth he accumulated while posing as Maharaji. I wouldn’t hold my breath, however, waiting for him to act responsibly in this matter.

Subject: Re: My responses to your questions From: janet To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 20:33:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First of all-- To those of you who think I am somehow a sycophant toward Michael Dettmers, I want to say that my expressions of absorption don't stem from some particular personality worship or adoration i have for Mike, but that Michael tells us of things he was directly present to witness; from things he actually had Maharaji tell him, to acts he was involved in personally, that had vast impact on the way Maharaji's fortunes went, long after Michael was out of the picture, and that when he brings his comments here, he usually has something to say that is more than bluffing, or hopeful morale-boosting cheerleading, or peanut gallery heckling, or whistling in the dark. While I have given myself over to some of each of those pastimes, while here on the forum, at times, I always remain alert and keen to receive new and substantial information from genuine sources, that takes our dialog here out of the speculative, the theoretical, the intellectual, and raises it up into the realm of the real and concrete. That is what I meant by ' a plane above and beyond the usual'. I did not have anything remotely approaching worship or the divine in mind, you may be assured. And I base my words on the actual impact Michael's posts have upon my thinking, after I have read them and reflected on them. I don't automatically get excited, just because I see his name in the queue. He has to earn his credibility here, just like anyone else. And for those of you who might wonder if the tone of my musings and questions indicates some notion on my part to contemplate doing an about-face, and possibly return to 'The Master': It's not gonna happen. I got what I came for, don't want the rest of it. He's got his, I've got mine, and from here on out, I'm busy with ME. BUT: That said, Michael, there are still some lingering points I put in my first post that beg answers. Would you like to take another shot at these for me? --- --- --- --- : : : : Michael, what does he think about Knowledge? I mean, he, himself: What does he really think of it? Does he have any actual regard for it, value it in itself? Or is it just something to be controlled and used, as a means to pull people in? Does he regard it like a product, like something he makes and distributes, the way, say, Bill Gates regards Microsoft code, or the Medellin regard cocaine? I still have to wonder whether he believes in it, or whether he thinks it's just the family business something he was born into, that he sells around the world, the way a son, born into a rug merchant family, would accept selling rugs as his lot in life, but pours all his ambition into it, to hustle and deal and get where he wants to in life, by using it to make fortune upon fortune. What do you think? What did you observe of him, relative to this question? Do you think he really does take seriously this order to take Knowledge to the whole world, to get it to every strata on earth before his life is over? If so, for what reason [does he intend to do it] Does he have any belief in Destiny? Did he ever say? Do you have any sense of who he thinks he is? Or what? It seems that we are irrelevant to him--not just we, the ex's. We, everybody. We the premies. We, the people. We, humanity. The parable of the sower and the seeds comes to mind. He casts the seeds out in a wide swath and walks on, and whatever takes root and grows, great, and whatever dies and blows away, fine. He seems to just want to get on to the next field, and the one after that, no looking back. Which makes me ask, then what IS relevant to him? Does he really think Knowledge can save the world? Is fulfilling that driving ambition really his centerpoint? What is it that is the fire that makes him do what he does? Is it ego? Is it belief? Is it just fortune and money? What would he do if the money vanished? If it stopped coming in? What would he do? What would become the centerpiece of his life, if faced with that? Would he still try to push Knowledge anyway? What do you think, Michael?

Subject: Corny Cheezball Deluxe From: Marshall To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 01:48:42 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: It's really easy Janet. The answers are... He knew from almost day one, if not from day one, that it was a load of bull. From almost day one rawat's been in it for the, 'money for nothin' and the chicks for free'. He's a corny cheezball deluxe. He started as a wannabe rockstar jesus christ superstar and now he's trying to be the 2nd or 3rd biggest ceo behind Seung Yoing Moon. Gosd Nite, Marshall

Subject: Well double sheesh, Janet From: gerry To: janet Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 20:56:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who ever intimated your imminent return to the Ladus Toes? OK, gopi was a bit strong. And Michael earned his credibility here a long time ago. Your questions do seem to be imbuing this cheap little con game of Rawat's with a lot more mojo than it really deserves. You have a wonderful flair for the dramatic and I rather enjoy it, mostly. But there is no such thing as 'Knowledge' and we all, including Prem Rawat, know that is the truth. Sir Dave sum it up nicely with this post below: "taking anything Maharaji says seriously can lead to confusion. He's a walking, random generating bullshit artist. That's all I need to say on the matter."

Subject: And I enjoyed your economic use of words, Gerry :) From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 22:27:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''Your questions do seem to be imbuing this cheap little con game of Rawat's with a lot more mojo than it really deserves.'' Yep Knowledge porridge and lineage sminniadge. He's finally in his element - LEADERS rag.

Subject: ... say WHAT??? From: cq To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 14:36:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, you say that you '... have no reason to believe that he and his advisors, some of whom are the same people I worked with, would do anything illegal'. The death of the bicyclist in India (which none of us knew about until you reported it here) may have been an accident, but the way M and his honchos covered it up WAS illegal wouldn't you say? Yet you have 'no reason' to believe he those around him would do anything illegal? Elan Vital has claimed exemption from US taxes for many years, based on the 'religious organisation' status that the IRS afforded them. Yet for at the last couple of years, that same 'religious organisation' has been benefiting financially from that exempt status, while presenting a totally different story to the public who line their pockets. The Maha says that knowledge 'is not a religion ... has nothing to do with spirituality', yet happily goes on fronting an organisation that claims to the taxman to BE a religious organisation. Now tell me that ain't illegal.

Subject: Re: ... say WHAT??? From: Michael Dettmerws To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 15:45:47 (EDT) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: Mike, you say that you '... have no reason to believe that he and his advisors, some of whom are the same people I worked with, would do anything illegal'. I was specifically referring to me, my team, and the lawyers and professional advisors who were involved in structuring and managing Maharaji’s financial affairs. Of course the hit and run accident was illegal but you can be sure that his lawyers and financial advisors in the USA and Europe were never made aware of it. The cover-up was orchestrated in India by Sampuranand and his co-horts. There were always plenty of premies around Maharaji who were ready to bend the rules in order to serve him, and many often did. Too much of my time, in fact, was spent cleaning up such messes. As for Élan Vital violating its tax exempt status, well good luck if you want to pursue that issue. As I’ve indicated several times in the past, Élan Vital was audited by the IRS more than once when I was involved and each time it satisfied the auditors that it was operating within the rules and regulations that apply to a 501C3 type organization. Perhaps that has changed since I left, but I would be surprised if it has. Maharaji and the Directors and Officers of Élan Vital have too much to loose if they were prosecuted for such violations.

Subject: is it more like this??-- From: janet To: Michael Dettmerws Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 19:48:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: michael, I know that when laymen find out something is permissable to do from a legal standpoint, nonetheless they/we are often repulsed to find out that it is outrageous from a moral or ethical standpoint. could that be the case here? are you saying that expert lawyers can arrange things to be perfectly 'legal', while, when viewed from a decency or moral standpoint, they also might be keenly offensive? Considering that Maharaji retains Tweed, Millbank to represent his interests in issues legal, I would guess that the things we see him do- and not do-, which we here decry as obnoxious and dishonest to us, would then be framed by his lawyers to be completely acceptable, presented in a court, and crafted to fall well within the written definitions of the Law. And given the stature, experience, expertise and ruthlessness of Tweed, et al, we would have a hell of a time, going up against them in court, and thinking we could lance his empire by legal challenge. [ Here's where I put on my McLaughlin group voice and buttonhole you: 'Michael! Comment?']

Subject: Not in my opinion From: Michael Dettmers To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 06:14:00 (EDT) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: The lawyers and accountants I engaged to help me and my team manage Maharaji’s financial affairs were not shysters. They were experienced professionals with impeccable credentials. None of them were premies nor did any of them ever express any interest in becoming a premie during the time I worked with them. All of them met with Maharaji, often two or three times a year, and respected him. Once we sorted out the initial mess in which Maharaji’s and DLM’s activities were improperly co-mingled (I have written extensively and in great detail about this so I’m not going to repeat myself here) it became obvious to everyone that thousands of premies were, in fact, showering Maharaji with money. From a legal point of view, these were considered gifts, and the IRS concurred with that opinion and upheld that principle whenever Maharaji was audited. Obviously, there aren’t too many people in the world who receive, on a regular basis, gifts from thousands of people all over the world. Maharaji’s lawyers, however, didn’t conjure up that fact. It’s not as if Maharaji were involved in drug dealing and had his lawyers devise a scheme to make the proceeds of this illicit activity appear to be gifts from thousands of his clients. People actually showered Maharaji with money for no apparent reason other than that they loved the bastard. When Maharaji, in turn, invested those funds in the stock market, or if someone gave him a stake in one of their companies, he paid whatever income and/or capital gains taxes were due. There is absolutely nothing sinister, fraudulent or illegal about any of this. In my opinion, it all boils down to one simple question: “Why would so many people shower Maharaji with so much money in the first place?” Answer: because they thought he was special – either god in a bod, Lord of the Universe, Perfect Master, satguru, you name it. That is why the manner in which he has revised his past, and his blatant disregard and indifference to the love and devotion that was bestowed upon him is an abomination.

Subject: Absolutely right, Michael From: PatC To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 13:20:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is the absolute crux of ex-premies' criticism of Rawat's revisionism (and wealth), as you said: ''Why would so many people shower Maharaji with so much money in the first place? Answer: because they thought he was special – either god in a bod, Lord of the Universe, Perfect Master, satguru, you name it. That is why the manner in which he has revised his past, and his blatant disregard and indifference to the love and devotion that was bestowed upon him is an abomination.'' It would have been nice if he had mentioned in his Leaders interview that he got rich off donations from us because he said he was the latest souped-up version of Jesus.

Subject: Uh oh -- maybe Dettmers IS a plant! From: Jim To: Michael Dettmerws Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 15:51:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji and the Directors and Officers of Élan Vital have too much to loose if they were prosecuted for such violations. Where'd THAT premieism come from?! :)

Subject: Re: My responses to your questions From: Livia To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 14:02:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Michael, for your answers. I feel a bit clearer now; your final point is spot on - he should absolutely explain, apologise, and either donate to charity or use for the spreading of the Knowledge most if not all of his wealth, if he truly believed himself to be just an ordinary person with a unique message. I wonder why then, if he is now just an ordinary person, he would oppose people revealing the techniques? His point previously was that they don't work 'without his grace'. If he has now come to the conclusion that he is an ordinary person, then grace has to go too. The meditation would then work in exactly the same way with or without Maharaji as a teacher, wouldn't it? You see, he's still trying to have it both ways. No more 'perfect master' concept, but exclusive rights over the teaching of Knowledge. Just who does he think he is, I wonder? It still doesn't really make any sense, however you look at it. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: The Prem Rawat Foundation From: janet To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 05:55:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As always, welcome--and warm regards to see you here again. Michael-- You have unfailingly come here with your unique insight that no one else has had. Whatever the news you bring, it is always, far and away, on a plane above whatever else we receive here, to ponder and discuss. Your comments in this new post , at least for me, are completely changing my lifelong conception of the man. Perhaps you and Bob Mischler were the only two men ever to stand that close to him, and not be totally blinded by the glare. Your revelations about his views regarding his father's role, and the lineage going back earlier, and especially about his declarations that ' a master never follows in another master's footsteps', are really putting me in a brown study from which I find it hard to move beyond. This changes so many things... It seems to me that this is a guy who was born into a family business, and in his own evolution as a person, took that business and used it, with overweening ambition, to make it a means to get everything he wanted to have in life. What a strange and illustrative tale, of using whatever life gives you to work with. Strange too, because purportedly, Shri Hans said of his son, when the boy was tiny, that 'one day Sant Ji will take my message to the whole world'. It makes me wonder, was that just hyperbole, or did Hans have some kind of precognnition about that? What you are saying describes someone who began life as his father's son, but as men will do, peeled away and grew out into his own man, while strangely retaining his father's order to 'take what I have shown you to the world'. And here he is, still doing it, in ways his father never could: he is still fulfilling that command of his long dead father. He is on satellite TV, viewable by anyone who has Dishnet. They can learn of him that way, and come. He gets himself in to Leaders magazine, a vehicle conceivably capable of getting what he does into the hands of world leaders, at the very highest echelon. And thereby, again, fulfills his father's first, last and interim orders, to 'take this to the world'. It truly gives one pause, to absorb. And all the while, he has operated on his own drive, his own hungry ambition, his personal appetites to serve himself, whatever the desire. He got expensive, fast, rich cars. He started drinking at 13. He got wahtever he asked for. He got rid of his mother by the time he was 16 and then he married a blonde, busty american stewardess. He learned to fly. He acquired a home in malibu, and in England at Reigate, and Miami, and any other land he wanted to have a home to go to. He started having children at 17. And when he tired of his wife, he started having trysts with whoever caught his eye, and dispensing with them like used napkins. He could rake in 250,000 american dollars just by sitting down and letting people file by for a couple of hours. He could say whatever he wanted to, whatever he felt like, whatever came to mind, and have it be worshipped and craved like it was scriptural revelation. No one and nothing could stop him. And still he wanted more. And he got more! Michael, are you saying that you and your team of advisors set him up so well, so self sustaining, that even if everyone deserted him right now, and all financial support ended, today, that he would not feel any financial change, no loss, no damage, thanks to how his income was set up??? ... ... ...that's something to think hard and long about. That changes something we have believed here for a long time. Michael, what does he think about Knowledge? I mean, he, himself: What does he really think of it? Does he have any actual regard for it, value it in itself? Or is it just something to be controlled and used, as a means to pull people in? Does he regard it like a product, like something he makes and distributes, the way, say, Bill Gates regards Microsoft code, or the Medellin regard cocaine? I wonder wheher he believes in it, or whether he thinks it's the family business he sells around the world, the way a son, born into a rug merchant family, would accept selling rugs as his lot in life, but pour all his ambition into it, to hustle and deal and get where he wanted to in life, by using it. to make fortune upon fortune? It's so strange to contemplate the ramifications of what you're telling us, from your unmatched position of closeness to him, when you were his righthand man. I can actually see some kernal of truth to the idea that he had to work against the tide of all the indian cultural trappings, being brought over to the west with the entourage of his mother, and his family, and all his father's mahatma's, some of whom went ahead of him..and having to work within that for the first several years, as he didn't know anything else, but quickly saw that life was better in the west, and then fell to machinating on how to pull things from the indian way over into the Rich American Way. And never asking if it was better for the people out there who believed in him, who were listening to him. Only aiming at making it better for him, and his ambitions. And if he really does take seriously this order to take Knowledge to the whole world, to get it to every strata on earth before his life is over, then he is either the maddest megalomaniac the world has seen in our lifetime, or he really was born to do what his father presaged about him in childhood. It is truly strange, and i can't pull away from staring at it. Does he have any belief in Destiny? Did he ever say? Do you have any sense of who he thinks he is? Or what? This new piece of yours is deeply disturbing and provocative for me. It is setting me to thinking about things, and about him, in a way I didn't expect to have to debate with myself. It is so strange. It seems that we are irrelevant to him-- Which makes me ask, then what IS relevant to him? Does he really think Knowledge can save the world? Is fulfilling that driving ambition really his centerpoint? What is it that is the fire that makes him do what he does? Is it ego? Is it belief? Is it just fortune and money? What would he do if the money vanished? If it stopped coming in? What would he do? What would become the centerpice of his life if faced with that? Would he still try to push Knowledge anyway? What do you think, Michael? Do you have any responses or insights to these, Michael? Janet Schwartz

Subject: You're overdoing it, IMO From: gerry To: janet Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 10:51:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Although Michael's post are sterling, I think this nonsense about his posts being on a 'higher plane' is insulting gopi-ish horse whappy. Many others here have contributed just as significantly as Michael has and I rather dislike your statement. As for the rest, well I don't understand your confusion or fascination. OK, maybe the fascination, like craning one's neck to see an auto accident, but not the mystic junk you seem to be piling on it. The Filament is not 'fulfilling his destiny' in some precognitive manner set forth by his father. And Janet, the 'purportedly' in your quote about Prem taking the K to the world' is the key world. It's most likely made up propaganda like the rest of the Super K bullshit. You give the whole thing way too much legitimacy with your starry eyed wonder and amazement. Quite frankly, the whole thing is not worth that kind of headspace if you ask me. It borders on infatuation. I can't help but feel you still believe a lot of this guru/knowledge/god happy crappy and I think that is to your detriment.

Subject: Re: You're overdoing it, IMO From: Livia To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 13:44:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry, the reason that some people including Janet and myself are utterly bemused today is that as far as we were concerned, Maharaji did genuinely believe that he was satguru, whatever. We based our whole lives on it, for Christ's sake. To then hear that he had other ideas while still purporting to be the satguru should be disquieting to say the least. I don't think being disturbed by this latest revelation means one still believes that he ever was a 'perfect master'. Obviously he isn't and never was. It's what he thought as opposed to what he said at the time that is key here, and I for one think it does matter. However, Mike's latest post seems to suggest that he did believe it in the beginning, and that's certainly how it seemed to me. It would be interesting to know when he began to question it, though. If he was recommending surrender at the time he no longer believed in the lineage, this is going to make a lot of people even angrier than they already are.

Subject: Janet's above questions for Michael From: Livia To: janet Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 07:48:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was going to post some of the same questions, but Janet has said it all and more. Your post, Michael, has started some very serious re-evaluations off in my head, and to quite honest, it's all pretty disturbing. Actually I will ask those questions, so here goes. 1 What, exactly, did Maharaji truly believe himself to be? 2 What, exactly, did Maharaji truly believe the Knowledge to be? 3 What, exactly, does he believe himself to be now? 4 What, exactly, does he believe the Knowledge to be now? I appreciate that you may not know the answers to questions 3 and 4, because you haven't been involved with Maharaji closely for some years now. However, I feel that a lot of us here would appreciate your answers to questions 1 and 2. The point is that back then, say from 71 - 83, we all know that he repeatedly claimed to be the "Perfect Master". He also used to state that there was always a 'Perfect Master' in the world, and that he was the current one. He used to ask for total surrender to himself, especially in the years from 1977. This tended to support his claims to be the 'one true perfect master'. He also used to state that the Knowledge was the 'one true Knowledge'. Even at Nottingham in 2001 he said that this is the 'only Knowledge'. In your post above, you imply that he wanted to break away from the mould set for him by his father. But if he was a different kind of master, what exactly did he think he was? Did he think he had supreme powers? And if he didn't, what in his mind justified his demanding total surrender? Why did he ever say things like: 'When a premie dies and God comes to claim him/her, Maharaji will be there saying 'No! That one's mine!' ' My head is completely boggled. Please clarify, Mike, if you possibly can. With love, Livia

Subject: The trouble is From: Sir Dave To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 20:58:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: taking anything Maharaji says seriously can lead to confusion. He's a walking, random generating bullshit artist. That's all I need to say on the matter.

Subject: Yep. That's it, Dave [nt] From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 22:32:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Good questions From: Nigel To: janet Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 07:48:40 (EDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: I'd be interested in any answers Michael feels like giving. meanwhile, Janet, with regard to just one paragraph... Strange too, because purportedly, Shri Hans said of his son, when the boy was tiny, that 'one day Sant Ji will take my message to the whole world'. It makes me wonder, was that just hyperbole, or did Hans have some kind of precognnition about that? I would dismiss the second possibly out of hand (not believing in precognition). As for the first - yes - it could be boilerplate hyperbole on the part of Shri Hans. My preferred take on it, though, is that that this particular 'memory' was fabricated later in support of Prem's guruship claim over Bubblegumji's. As was that nonsense (Prem's own claim) about Prem hearing Shri Hans' voice at his father's funeral appointing him his successor. In guruland you can get away with saying whatever you like for as long as people are prepared to believe you.

Subject: The Perpetual Revisionists Foundation [nt] From: Dermot To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 01:42:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Superb analysis, Michael From: Happie Frenchie To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 18:45:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The King of Con's past is bound to boomerang back in this face, that is the sole consolation I see to his dismal propensity to always reinvent history. The more he denies his past, the more the elastic is being stretched backward, and when it will fly back in his face, the damage will be all the greater. The weak spots in his armor are his ego and his greed. And as they say, you can fool some of the people, some of the time, but not all of the peope, all of the time. Rawat, it's only a matter of time before your fall. And the sooner it will come, the better it will be -- unfortunatly it will leave thousands of sincere and good people laying in the dust, whose only crime is their naiveté and their inability to see you for what you are : a con man with no heart and no ethics.

Subject: Re: The Prem Rawat Foundation From: Livia To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 18:26:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of all the lies and revisions that were put forth over the past few years, in this regard, I don’t believe Maharaji was ever comfortable with the attempt to justify his legitimacy as a bona fide guru by expounding upon the purity of his lineage. Maharaji doesn’t really believe that he was appointed as his father’s successor or that he inherited his father’s mantle. I find this part of your extremely interesting post (thanks, Michael) quite mind-boggling. To think that down all those years he didn't really believe that he was part of that lineage... Why, then, was Swami Swarupanand recently mentioned on his website? Why did Maharaji mention the lineage as recently as in Nottingham, England only last year? I'll dig out the quote and post it tomorrow. I'm sorry, none of this is making sense. I don't disbelieve you at all; after all this whole thing is so full of lies, revisionism and cynical volte-faces. I just can't understand how he could possibly expect any further devotion/gratitude without seeming to remain part of this supposed lineage. I distinctly remember him saying that there was always a 'satguru' in this world. Are you now saying he never even believed this in the first place??? And if he doesn't believe he is part of the 'lineage', then by what authority does he feel he can forbid the premies from revealing the techniques to anyone they like, when, as he must know, they can be found in books? Why should he, as a 'self-styled' master, believe that he has some special power to make the Knowledge work? Love, Livia

Subject: what I recall about giving money From: Susan To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 19:11:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't give much money. I was a teenager. I gave a lot of time in 'service'. But I do recall clearly that premies were told to address gifts to the Guru to 'Prem Pal Singh Rawat' and that this was strongly encouraged. These gifts were clearly for his upkeep and toys, not the mission. Other checks were to EV or Divine Light Mission...I recall less requests for those actually. But it was a long time ago. It was never a secret he liked expensive toys and expected premies to support his lilas. None of this excuses anything. Just makes me sick I bought the whole trip.

Subject: great post (nt) From: Susan To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:43:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: A question for Michael From: Lesley To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:37:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember, not so many years ago, responding to my father's remark that Maharaji was getting rich out of us by replying that Maharaji came from a wealthy family, and had become richer out of his own separate and independent business efforts. This lie is commonly accepted as the truth amongst premies, and the fact that Maharaji has a seven million dollar yacht is not commonly known amongst premies. Those premies, nonetheless, are the ones that have been donating money consistently for thirty years. Rawat made use of your efforts to amass his own wealth, thanks for having the guts to say so. Your contributions to this forum have done a lot for me personally, to allay the hurt I have felt at realising how conned I have been, because you make the effort to post it, because you are being straight and evidently care. I do have a question, though, one I have wanted to ask you for ages. What did you think, how did you feel about the way a false front was presented to the bulk of premies over how their donations were used, did you clearly realise this was happening at the time?

Subject: Yeah, but Mike ... From: cq To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:24:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, but Mike ... Look, I do appreciate the fact that, in the last couple of years, you've spilt some revealing beans about the Maha, but you seem to be saying that the way PR has gone (Prem Rawat, that is) is the way you wanted him to go, ie to re-invent himself. Well, like you say, if he'd own up to his past abuses of power and influence, it might just be possible for someone (not him though) to re-package the knowledge/meditation techniques in a way that didn't rob them of their credibility (which is what he HAS done, over the decades). All he needs is a charismatic 'silent partner'-type accomplice/spokesperson, one who nobody has ever heard of before, and one who has no provable link with him, to present the meditation to a whole new generation - this time without the sordid history of the dependence-promoting/personality-worshiping fixation that he has hankered for in the past. But, rampant egotist that he is, he's put his own name up there in lights, as in 'The Prem Rawat Foundation', which any punter with half a brain will do a net-search on before deciding one way or the other as to whether he's genuine/trustworthy/credible or not. I guess the TRUE premies (who believe that the benefits of spreading 'Knowledge' are more important than any leader's ego, just might be tempted to start sharing that 'Knowledge' themselves. Poor premies! - it'd be a moral dilemma almost worthy of St Peter - whether to deny their Master, in preference to going about the task of propagating 'Knowledge' in a way that MIGHT have a real impact on the world, instead of just readers of 'Leaders' magazine. What's Rawat hoping for? That some world leader's going to declare him to be the real Messiah after all? That's an cultural Armageddon I wouldn't want to hang around for! PS, I know you have a lot of inside gen on how Rawat's financial empire was set up, some of which could be useful in making sure his current financial incarnation of 'The Prem Rawat Foundation' DOESN'T qualify for tax exemption. Or would that be a breach of the non-disclosure agreement you apparently signed with him/DLM/EVI? If so, isn't that tantamount to harbouring a criminal? Tough question, but someone should ask it. Regards, Chris

Subject: Chris, please email me From: Marianne To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:37:44 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Talk soon.

Subject: Bang on the nail CQ.. and Mike?? From: Moley To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:34:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PS, I know you have a lot of inside gen on how Rawat's financial empire was set up, some of which could be useful in making sure his current financial incarnation of 'The Prem Rawat Foundation' DOESN'T qualify for tax exemption. Or would that be a breach of the non-disclosure agreement you apparently signed with him/DLM/EVI? If so, isn't that tantamount to harbouring a criminal? Sorry Mike, no stress meant. But you must see what this means.

Subject: Two questions Mike... From: Moley To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 15:55:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Therefore, with the assistance of professional advisors and a great staff, we developed and implemented a strategy that was designed to make him independently wealthy. Very interesting. Can you give us more detail on this? Of all the lies and revisions that were put forth over the past few years, in this regard, I don’t believe Maharaji was ever comfortable with the attempt to justify his legitimacy as a bona fide guru by expounding upon the purity of his lineage. Maharaji doesn’t really believe that he was appointed as his father’s successor or that he inherited his father’s mantle. He often made the point to me that “no master walks in another master’s footsteps,” and that “a master has to make his own way.” Consequently, I believe that he has secretly resented that his accomplishments (as he sees them) were never fully recognized as the fruits of his own efforts and abilities. Instead, they were diminished because they were seen as achievements by a divine or supernatural person. Ditto - very interesting. He doesn't believe that his legitimacy comes from his daddy??? His achievments were diminished because they were seen as achievements by a divine or supernatural person. Even more interesting. Kinda tips everything we once believed on it's head - no? Gawd. I bloody wish we could sue the b**t**d

Subject: Blimey... Ok, premies, what do you think..? From: Nigel To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 15:37:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I reckon that, deep down, die-hard premies have been hanging on to this long-conditioned notion that 'Maharaji' (RIP - now Prem Rawat) is still, in a nod-and-a-wink kind of way, living incarnation, god-in-a-bod, future saviour of the whole of humanity etc... The combination of the new ordinary-bloke-self-made-Prem 'foundation' and M.D.'s interpretation/explanation must make that particular rationalisation extremely hard to sustain in these latter days. Interesting times..

Subject: That's what makes them 'saints.' From: New-Age Redneck To: Nigel Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:07:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nigel: '...in these latter days...' Ok, ok, really baaaaaaaddddddd joke.

Subject: Do you shag while posting? ot From: Marianne To: Nigel Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:01:13 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Hi Nig and Moley! How are you? Wot, did one of you head to the fridge for another bottle of chardonnay, and the one left in bed turned on the forum?!! Write and tell me how you are. Many hugs, Marianne

Subject: Well..um..actually...er... (blush) From: Nige To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:08:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well. let's just say you might be surprised (or not.. ..your speculative vignette carries a measure of truth. Spoons works best, we reckon.) Hugs and stuff, Nig and Moles

Subject: Spoons work best?!??! OT From: Marianne To: Nige Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:15:26 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Just how do spoons work best? Do tell. Perhaps this is an 'other forum' topic. Or email. Oh,I got your number during those visits, Nigel! xxxxooo to you both -- so glad you are happy, Marianne

Subject: Of course!!!! One can look over the From: New-Age Redneck To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:15:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: other's shoulder while they are posting in tandem. Makes perfect sense to me.... :) Nige, I hope you guys are having a ball..... no pun intended.

Subject: Re: Of course!!!! One can look over the From: Marianne To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:19:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: oh this spoon business is way beyond this Catholic girl. I think the fires in hell were stoked after these posts!

Subject: Stoked for the hot-tub From: New-Age Redneck To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:53:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nah, what you thought was the fires-of-hell was just my hot-tub flames burning down to fine embers....... so I can spoon my wife in warm water...... Sorry, I musta used just a 'few' too many logs. he he he :)

Subject: Re: PRF From: Gail To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 15:33:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanx for the great read.

Subject: Good to hear from you like this, Mike From: Jim To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 15:07:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great post, like the others said. Two things, though. I think that both yours and Mishler's hopes and plans for Maharaji to clean up his act and re-invent himself were, frankly, a bit 'optimistic'. I don't think he could ever salvage any legitimacy from his particular legacy or history. He was an eight-year-old Lord of the Universe and either that was bunk or it wasn't. Very, very difficult for anyone turning that sow's ear into anything. MAYBE if he jettsioned the whole Knowledge thing altogether and just tried to become some sort of inspirational speaker or something, based, perhaps, on all the special insights he gained as a worshipped avatar, or something like that, it might have worked. But to take that same special sauce and try to say it's still special but not quite that special any longer .... forget it. It never would have worked. Maybe he even sensed that. Two, do you think if I got you a little seed capital you can set those balls in motion for me too? I promise I won't do anything too extravagant. :)

Subject: Re: Good to hear from you like this, Mike From: Bolly Shri To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 06:11:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, seed capital is only peripheral to the game and generally not even essential. The art of being a succesfull con artist is to convince others that your 'product' is worth supporting. I suggest you study objectively other con artists, oh! whoops thats whats happening here isn't it. There are negative aspects to it, being phoney, not knowing if people love you or the persona you sold them etc. Are the rewards worth the trip maybe prem pal alias maha alias lord alias satguru will post here and tell us, and maybe pigs will fly. Love and jai to all

Subject: Jim will want a Gulfstream in nothing flat From: Susan To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:43:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I myself think that design at the divine residence with the glass that goes into the walls so there is nothing in between you and your ocean view sounds 'divine'. Michael can you help me too? I would never want to live in Malibu though. Not my style at all. IF I were a super wealthy leader ( what about that quote he wanted to be neither a leader nor figurehead?) I'd choose some hidden away oasis.

Subject: Who's the bigger fool From: New-Age Redneck To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 14:41:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: EXCELLENT Michael and thank you! Now comes the question.... and it really hurts to think about it: Who is the bigger fool? The twerp that said he could 'show me god' or the twerp (me) that believed him. That really is all that I had ever really desired. Such a simple request. Who would have guessed that so many greedy ass_oles would respond to that desire. Not just M, but the whole lot of them. Every single power hungry 'religous leader' on the face of this earth is guilty of it. Every last one of them.

Subject: NAR, you're still kind of slow, aren't you? From: Jim To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 14:57:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who would have guessed that so many greedy ass_oles would respond to that desire. Isn't that like writing 'moth_rfucker'? Just kidding ... about you being slow, I mean. AFter all, it's not as if you ever followed a teenaged Lord of the Universe or anything, is it? :)

Subject: Jim, you are too kind :) From: New-Age Redneck To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:12:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and observant, too :) Slow? Well, uh, ye.., well, er ahhhhhh.... shut up and deal da cards. :)

Subject: Thanks, Michael From: PatC To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 14:09:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: If Maharaji were acting sincerely and authentically, before reinventing his persona as a public figure, he would first come clean with all of the people who believed in him and accepted him as he once presented himself. He would do this in open forums where he engaged in genuine dialogue, taking full responsibility for the negative consequences his assumed role as Maharaji produced in peoples lives, without fear of admitting his mistakes and apologizing for them. If you tell a lie and get caught out and immediately apologise, it is not too hard to eat a bit of crow. If you don't fess up but instead tell another lie to cover up the first lie, it get's harder to come clean. The more lies you tell the more you have to lie otherwise the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. His house of cards is a pack of lies. He even tells lies that he doesn't believe himself if he thinks it will work (such as the ''lineage'' which, as you mention, he always derided.) The other thing of course is that the 4,000 diehard western premies who still prop up his house of cards believe (because of what they perceive self-knowledge to be, ie god) that Rawat is ''You Know Who.'' If he came clean he would loose ALL of his western premies and they would all turn on him. He can't come clean without losing everything he has including his money and status. Very nice to hear from you. I hope you are well. Best wishes to you.

Subject: M said privately... From: J McG To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 08:11:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...(and wistfully?) in recent times: 'I could be one of the two or three wealthiest men in the world if I chose. But I have chosen to do this work instead.' (And eschew worldly wealth, presumably (-: ) Which kind of supports Michael's analysis of his self-image.

Subject: Yes, J McG, I'd heard that From: PatC To: J McG Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 13:22:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: M said privately...(and wistfully?) in recent times: 'I could be one of the two or three wealthiest men in the world if I chose. But I have chosen to do this work instead.' That was told to me by our local industrial-strength church-lady. At the time I just thought it was church-lady gossip on a par with, ''M has the biggest (insert your own fantasy here;)) in the world.'' I did hear him say once (to all gathered at an event) that he could just walk away from us and go and be a pilot and that he actually preferred that to being the Master but that he did the Master schpiel because he chose to. Adoring applause. I know two pilots and neither of them are as rich as Rawat. I guess he chose the Master-schpiel because it's more lucrative that piloting.

Subject: Bill Gates is Maha's Guru From: Marshall To: J McG Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 11:00:46 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: What a joke. 'One of the two or three wealthiest men in the world if I chose' But he chose his 'work' instead, how magnanamous of gmj. You know of course why he doesn't have the courage to say the FIRST richest, of course. That's because that honor will cetainly go to Bill Gates for the rest of all of our natural lives including Ratwatt's. Bill Gates' fortune is so immense and untouchable that even Ratty knows better than to compete with him(Gates). In the mahas world where only $$$ really counts the true 'Boss' is Bill Gates, and supposedly goo is a computer expert(?) hahahaha.

Subject: Thanks Michael From: Richard To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 13:54:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Extremely well thought out and articulated as usual. I have certainly been curious what M's former close aides, like yourself, think about the latest organizational reincarnation. I am especially curious after listening to the moving phone conversation with the late Bob Mishler during which he explains why M was not worthy of worship in 1976. The parallels to today are remarkable. From what I know of you and Bob, I am struck by the similarities in both your and his initial passion in serving M and later compassion for M in light of his failings. Apparently M relied on Bob, Donner, yourself and others for the true human beings that you are as well as your organizational skills. For that reason and others, his retreat from his own humanity is quite ironic and continues to astound me. Thanks again for your unique perspective.

Subject: Re: Thanks Michael From: e rohm To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 03:52:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: dear richard i agree with you, m detts responce,is as useual correct but when you say that bob m m donner and mike detts provided a humane content for m,thats whitewashing theirs and ours and if not ours my involement; there is more than just the history of m as the great seducer, he di not stand alone , their is a shared history with us the insiders the x rated the orgonisers we the former insides share with m a collective responcabilty for many things that happen , the shape of how thing came to be ; when i read your remarks,it reminded me of a guy at the back of the hall loooking at those in the front row as a liitle special as humane beings they may well be , but fuck get real it just wasent adolf. no offence intended but please think it through

Subject: Welcome to E Rohm From: Richard To: e rohm Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 22:54:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think you may have missed the intent of my post. I certainly did not single out those three people as possessing more humanity and therefore were/are somehow special. My point was that, after listening to Bob's tape and reading Dettmers'analysis of TPRF, I think both Dettmers today and Mishler then, really and truly had our and M's best interests at heart. I sensed an extraordinary level of compassion from both of these men. I also perceived that they truly felt compassion for the person who they had once believed could bring peace. I certainly don't mean to speak for anyone. These are my perceptions only. The fact that these extraordinarily humane people were drawn into M's inner circle (along with the rst of us on the outer circle) makes me wonder how M could then reject his own humanity and refuse take responsibility and climb into a bottle. I believe that many of us, including Dettmers, Donner and Mishler, were drawn to GMJ because of the high ideals he espoused. And so our collective objective was to help M achieve those stated ideals. I was proud to serve alongside those three men and many other men and women who shared those ideals and truly believed M meant what he said regarding bringing peace to the world. I flatly reject any notion whatsoever that any one of those three, or any other premie I know personally, ever for a moment believed they were aiding and abetting a scammer. Those three, who I chose to illustrate my point, have all said that they rejected M when they each concluded he was perpetuating a scam. If they had stayed on, then you could shout conspiracy. Far from being co-conspirators, they each stood tall and have spoken out about how far M has drifted from his stated mission. As for anyone sharing responsibility, I also flatly reject that any follower of M, no matter the level of involvement, owes me anything at all. We were all seduced and the only responsibility I feel is to tell my story and let others tell theirs. The only exception would be if someone knowingly witheld information about something that was damaging to anyone else. This would include knowingly covering up pedophilia. Cheers and welcome to the forum. I hope you continue to contribute.

Subject: Re: Welcome to E Rohm From: e rohm To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 15:57:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: dear richard as ive just pointed out to patc things are slow in the afterlife. yes i've missed the point of what you were meaning...i think or perhaps not. I don't believe m is a complete scammer that is a semantic arguement rather than a moral one, which i have no interest in. I would say however that you seem a thoroughly decent chap and your reply to what may be my brick in the pond approach to communication is commendable. Put me in mind of the chinese maxim - good manners overcome the most irritable of people so thankyou as i have known all 3 people on a personal level i would uphold your comments on their general humanity and i think you missed my point or pat c missed my point i can't remember now whatever age is a wicked thing goebel's was considered an extremely nice man infact quite charming and coined that illustrious phrase - the best form of propaganda is entertainment. We were a very entertaining bunch of people, look how long Joan Apter's Satsang went on for and Michael's wonderful rendition of an aria i have forgotten, that time at the birthday party in Miami. ofcourse not forgetting m. nuries' chameo performance. we all seemed to know what we were doing then, we all seemed to know quite clearly who we were then, now in the afterlife nobody seems to know anything other than M's to blame, and we are all on a home run. Statistically speaking, as i've pointed out to pat c 100% of the people duped are now 100% of the people innocent of the shared responsibility. thats very entertaining

Subject: Thanks again, ER From: Richard To: e rohm Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 17:05:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting points you make. I still think that collaboration in perpetuating a scam only occurs when you KNOW it's a scam. If any of us, M included, knew that path was not true then that person should be held accountable. The responsibility I feel for having contributed to the growth of M&K is that I now must tell my story as I know it. I don't at all feel guilty about my involvement. Had I knowingly participated in lying about M&K, then I would now feel great remorse. That is not the case. We all bought into the high ideal of world peace via spreading K. At some point, we woke up to a new reality and now speak from that awareness. Please do tell us more about yourself as you feel the urge to do so. If you do, consider posting a new thread as this one is getting close to inactive.

Subject: You're so quiet, e rohm From: PatC To: e rohm Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 04:46:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The way you just popped in here out of nowhere was so quiet and your spelling is so atrocious that it will be hard to get anyone here to take you too seriously. Sorry, but it's fact of life. You need to be able to write to get read on the net. I don't agree with you at all. I think everyone from Marolyn on down was conned by the belief that Knowledge was god. If there were any fellow conspirators perhaps you can point a finger at the older Indian mahatmas but I doubt it. I think they also thought K was special.

Subject: Re: You're so quiet, e rohm From: e. rohm To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 11:12:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: dear pat c you are quite right about my spelling something i share with m; dyslexia. i apologise, but contrary to your statement about being read, it solicited your reply. thanks for the advice technology even the simplest seems difficult having been in the afterlife since the night of the long knives. i suppose i could point a finger at hienrich georing and goebbals but speer, well he almost got off due to a pretty speech and the confession to a plot of one against the furher's life; uncolloborated, saved him from the hangman to become the darling of the revissionists e rohm

Subject: Re: You're so quiet, e rohm From: PatC To: e. rohm Date Posted: Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 13:31:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: More advice: Use spellcheck. Modern technology can overcome so many handicaps - even dyslexia. You said M is also dyslexic. Interesting. But what do you mean when you say you have ''been in the afterlife since the night of the long knives?'' Anyway, I still don't agree with you. Rawat appointed himself god. Hitler really was elected in 1926 and his supporters definitely did share in his culpability. Neither did Hitler offer some magical mystical yoga techniques purporting to show one god. Maybe it will turn out one day that some cult honchos were as cynical as Rawat about the scam but I doubt it. We were all hoodwinked by the secret special K juju.

Subject: Re: You're so quiet, e rohm From: e rohm To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 15:28:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: dear pat c things are slow in the after life, hence my response, thanx for the further advice, i can see you could become a source of inspiration to me. From my understanding of Rawat, he was appointed god by others, i don't know many children between the ages of 4 & 6 who appoint themselves god. Or have i missed something? The swastika is a mystical symbol as we all know, tibetan in origin, plus all the other Arian symbols, that went to making a nice night out at Nuremburg, were precisesly the tools of his techniques for purporting to show one god-himself. the point i'm making here is the pursuit of pernicious myths that evolve into a pernicious philosophy that came to fruition in Auschwiz. That we chose to blindly believe and follow and many lives were destroyed in the process cannot be placed at the feet of one man. Surely we were not without choices or without questions. That we choose to believe that kjuju over rode any discriminatery faculty that we posessed prior to initiation is reasonably sad when considered from your point of view that everybody was conned. I can only then conclude that it is a very powerful juju, 100% succesful, infact the most powerful juju known to man or even in the universe. which creates a fresh dilema he who would posess the most powerful juju in the universe, i assume could consider himself the lord of the universe. your call ps-please be kind enough to indicate to me where spellcheck is

Subject: What are you talking about? From: Jim To: e rohm Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 20:18:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Surely we were not without choices or without questions. That we choose to believe that kjuju over rode any discriminatery faculty that we posessed prior to initiation is reasonably sad when considered from your point of view that everybody was conned. I can only then conclude that it is a very powerful juju, 100% succesful, infact the most powerful juju known to man or even in the universe. It was far from 100 percent successful. Are you kidding? Many were called, few were chosen, of those some got out sooner, some a little later and some later still. A small percentage overall are still involved. So was it a powerful con? Sure. Does that mean that its perpetrator was particularly powerful? No. There can be all sorts of reasons a con like this takes off. In this case, it was a combination of the unique flavour of the times, the wonderful set up DLM had started, myth-wise and all in India and, giving credit where its due, the excellent way both Maharaji and his family were able to play the roles of precocious, teenage Lord and his Holy Family.

Subject: I was hoping you'd show up. Phew!:C) [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 03:59:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hi e rohm From: PatC To: e rohm Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 18, 2002 at 16:02:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I do understand your point and I know that I also made that Rawat juju happen for me because I was so desperate and wanted to believe. Perhaps he was appointed as guru but he himself said that he heard voices telling him that he was the chosen one when his father died when he was 8. He also inherited a powerful organization from his father which is what I saw when I first got K. All the holy mahatmas etc. Don't you have a spellcheck program on your computer? If you have a word processor then it will have spellcheck. I really don't mind bad spelling. It's bad thinking I don't like and so far you seem to be very sensible and I have enjoyed your messages. Thanks. I look forward to talking to you more. Take care. Best wishes.

Subject: Re: The Prem Rawat Foundation From: bill To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 13:30:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Micheal, This morning I was briefly in the Hartford Public Library where an ex works who has never come to epo. While there, the INFLATION theory of the universe. The universe inflated unimaginally fast from a speck during the first trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a second, then slowed down due to gravity and congealed like jello while continueing to expand. Well, thats what they said. Next read was an article in Atlantic Monthly. Only because it was a report on saddam hussien. Their info was one thing and thier analysis of him was another. Like you, the author made a educated guess on what makes him tick like he does. I think both you and that author would benefit by reading about narcisist behaviours. I did and it sure seems to cover all the elements of guys like prem and saddam. At the core. rawat fits it in the true classic way of one who started in childhood. I see JOE didnt post yet, so I will cover something I am sure he would. Any chance of details on that origional structure of investment you and company put in place? I know Mike Donner is a bit ticked at you for setting him up so well, but I have at least one of your 1977 satsangs and hey, devotees are devotees and we all were thinking alike at that point and all of us did our best to set the bum up.

Subject: TRUE: I just pucked. From: Silvia To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 10:23:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How can ANYBODY deny people like me, who put so many years to follow a deceitful 'master', the right to be angry and to want retribution? I am just starting to realize, to understand in what way he got me trapped. He is accountable. I have 400 videos to prove it! Thanks for your guts to tell the truth. silvia

Subject: Good, hockey is a fine alternative to M From: New-Age Redneck To: Silvia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 17:53:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well said, Silvia! You're darned skippy it's your RIGHT to be angry! Now.... go out there and start pucking! Hockey is a fine sport! :)

Subject: Red: LOL From: gerry To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 20:58:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was a literal LOL, Red and I didn't catch the typo the first time I read Sylvia's post. :)

Subject: Right on Silvia xx [nt] From: Moley To: Silvia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:11:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: It's very strange From: Dermot To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 03:38:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that none of the Premies on the LIG forum seem inspired or enthused enough to discuss the latest offering from Maharaji.....the tprf.org site. You'd think the place would be buzzing with views, discussions etc and that they'd all come out of the woodwork and share their inspiration or whatever. Instead it's as if the site didn't exist. Wasn't it Cat or someone who mentioned a few weeks/months ago that something stupendous was coming along.....some great interview in some exalted mag....and how it would pretty much alter existence as we know it or something:) (Aye Captain, it's life but not as we know it Jim hahah) If the man himself and his fantastic new web site isn't a springboard for discussing the fantabulous topic that is ....LIFE IS GREAT!!!! then what is? I guess Premies think a FORUM is the last place to actually discuss stuff of interest and relevance.....what the hell eh?.....if Prem Rawat is looking and acting more and more like Rev Syung Businessmoon.....it's all an illusion anyway.... Row the boat, row the boat, row the boat upstream merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily....Life is but a dream (and GREAT).

Subject: Re: It's very strange From: Sir Dave To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 06:26:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The only difference is, Rev Moon has a huge following and is by his own admission, the Lord of the Universe, unashamedly so because when he was released from prison, he was crowned Lord of the Universe in a private ceremony. I think that Prem Rawat's Leaders article and his foundation web site are all backfiring because any outsider can clearly see that it's a Rawat worshipping cult. You see, the premies and the Maha are so attuned to the Avataar/devotee relationship that they can only express that in web sites or articles. They do not understand that to the ordinary person, such worship looks bizarre and most peculiar and unnatural. People don't want to live their lives relying on or worshipping a guru. They want to be independent and free to be their own guru. The bit I've read of the Leaders article reads like some tacky self improvement scam. ''This man can show you peace'' will not work in today's world and people are very wary of such claims. Now if it had been a book about how to get inner peace, that would have been different and people would buy it because they'd have the whole thing under their own control. The Prem Rawat Foundation site is just another Enjoyinglife/ElanVital clone. The slide show is a killer! By the way, is that Glen Whittaker grinning in the first sequence, on the right hand picture at the front in the middle?

Subject: Gratitude v worship From: Livia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 07:45:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They do not understand that to the ordinary person, such worship looks bizarre and most peculiar and unnatural. Spot on, Dave. I showed 'Passages' to my (non-premie) partner, as he was curious and I wanted to see what his reaction would be. He watched it all the way through and was what we in England called 'gob-smacked' by it. He felt the spin was more than tangible; it was blatant. He clearly saw it to be a personality cult, and that was without seeing any actual pranaming. He also thought the premies interviewed looked mentally ill. Another of the videos I've recently watched contained several shots of premies pranaming, and for the first time, something about this made me feel distinctly queasy. The way the premies sit, focussing their attention raptly on Maharaji's face and his every word. The way they leap to their feet the moment he looks like leaving. Of course, I did all these things repeatedly for years upon years, but now to see it objectively leaves a very odd impression, to say the least. The premies do sincerely believe that he is God. If they thought he was just a teacher of a great meditation for whom they felt immense gratitude, they would not behave like this. This is worship, clear and simple, and any premie who tries to deny it is lying through their teeth. Has anybody asked a premie whether they worship him or merely feel gratitude for what he has given them? It would be interesting to hear how they answer. I think I'll try it, and report back. I'd hazard a guess that the answer will be 'gratitude'. From a mindset of worship, it's not surprising that premies like R2 and co find it so impossible to be objective. Even the eminently reasonable sounding CPG is obviously finding it difficult to entertain a single critical thought about Maharaji. 'Gratitude' doesn't pre-empt critical thought. Worship does. Premies reading this should think carefully about what they feel for Maharaji - gratitude or worship? They are not the same thing. Love, Livia

Subject: LIVIA;Gratitude v worship From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 17:21:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Liv, seems like people feel whatever is the given word of the day; now its 'gratitude'......use ta be 'devotion', same game , different name. Love to know what people really thought, in words of their own choosing.

Subject: Re: LIVIA;Gratitude v worship From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 18:00:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV, they don't know what they really think and they don't know how to choose their own words any more. I spoke to a premie on the phone a few weeks ago when all the latest changes were starting to happen. I asked her what she thought about it, and her response was that it was 'all really beautiful'. I thought to myself: 'Yeah and if he'd said he was tripling the organisation, calling himself Guru Maharaj Ji again, reopening the ashrams and telling us all to 'give satsang' again, you would say that was all really beautiful too!!!' My mistake was not to say it. I wonder what she would have said? I'll try it another time. It could be a good way to get a premie to see/admit to themself that they see Maharaji as perfect in everything he does. Or not, most likely. Love to you, Liv

Subject: Addendum From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 08:15:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Any premie taking the time to contemplate whether what they truly feel for Maharaji is gratitude or worship, should then consider this, if the answer is worship. What are you doing, worshipping someone who has amassed a vast fortune on the back of premies' donations, even using offshore bank accounts to safeguard this vast fortune? What are you doing worshipping someone who has acquire a $7 million yacht from premies' donations? Could this £7 million not have been better used towards the work of spreading the Knowledge? Wasn't Shri Hans Ji's agya (command) to Maharaji to spend his life dedicated to spreading the Knowledge? For what reason could he possibly not have used these handsome resources towards the purpose for which he says he was born? Consider this too: why do you think the existence of this $7 million yacht has been deliberately hidden from the premies? And how about this, in case you're thinking that these items were bought using money specifically donating to Maharaji for his own use, rather than for the purposes of propagation? 'I testify that everything Maha spent during my time in his office was paid for from fundraising for propagation, I mean everything. Birthday presents for his kids of $45,000, everything. Cars galore ...etc etc But then again I'm a bitter ex so it must all be lies... ?????? Steve Mulley Residence gofor, Maharaji's office employee, West London Community Co-ordinator, Residence Security, Maharaji's escort driver, Darshan Security, Aspirant Co-ordinator, Maharaji's bringer of breakfast, friend of Maha's cook. Ex mug' ' My view, for what it's worth, is that if you immediately conclude that Steve Mulley must as a matter of course be a liar, then you do indeed worship Maharaji, no mistake. And a by-product of that is that as far as Maharaji is concerned, you have completely taken leave of your critical faculties. God help you. Livia

Subject: Re: Addendum From: Gail To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 15:32:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi there! I really enjoyed that post. When was the post from Steve M. first published (I'd like to read it all)? I don't come around that often anymore.

Subject: Re: Addendum From: Livia To: Gail Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:51:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gail, I found it on EPO when I looked up references to the yacht. It was in a forum archive. (Type in 'yacht' etc. where you do a search.) Yes, it blew my mind a bit too. I wonder if this Steve ever posts these days? Love, Livia Love, Livia

Subject: Re: It's very strange From: Op To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 06:57:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sir Dave Don't forget that it is the intention of Ratwa (sp?) in due course to publish a book which will be sold in leading bookstalls around the world. This was highlighted as a future endeavour in the 'Yoram Weiss Happy Hour' a few months back. I guess that Ratwa will try and emulate Deepak Chopra and the fantastic sales that Deepak had in his self-help books. Mind you I wonder what content Ratwa's books will have? Very much doubt they will contain details of the meditation techniques or the need to worship the massa. Stripped of these two things, what do we have left? A cult that simply funnels money to one man, a cult that perverts the course of justice, a cult that seeks to minimise individuality whilst creating a deeply non-democratic hierarchy (x-rating)- an empty shell. Op

Subject: Are you Opie or Old Premie? From: JHB To: Op Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 16:52:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or someone else? When I first started posting here there was an 'Old Premie' who, if my memory serves me right, shortened her name to Op. Is this her, or, as seems more likely, Opie, who is too busy right now to type the 'i' and 'e'? Just a short note to illustrate the confusion caused by changing names or using similar names to existing posters:) John.

Subject: Re: Are you Opie or Old Premie? From: Opie (soon to metamorphise) To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 17:34:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John Yes sorry about that. Jim also brought the possible confusion to my attention earlier today. Did not realise that there was an Old Premie in the olden golden days (Forum 1?). I am Occasional Poster is .... Nah forget it - moniker change coming up real soon now. Just like PR from M :) Occasional Poster - not living up to his moniker.

Subject: Maybe you could become RIP... From: Bai Ji To: Opie (soon to metamorphise) Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 03:59:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Regular Interesting Poster !

Subject: Re: Maybe you could become RIP... From: Opie (soon to metamorphise) To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Tues, Apr 16, 2002 at 04:15:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Bai Ji :) Good idea and many thanks for the vote of confidence. I would dearly love to use my real name and just be done with that, but for reasons many know, I feel I can not. It is a real shame that many people feel that they need to protect themselves from possible attack from the cult and their apologists. A certain event very recently relating to someone else unfortunately reconfirms my fears. I post in my real name on various other forums (not related to M, EV,K ...) and it feels natural. Anyway enough of me hijacking this thread, I wish you well in your current endeavours, your posts displays lots of clarity and love. Love, moi