Subject: VISIONS - ARCHIVES (from below) From: Gail To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 16:49:42 (EDT) Email Address: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com Message: The 30-year works of Maharaji in film, audiotape, videotape, still photography and text are stored in the archives. You can bet Prem has copies of everything he has done! Archives are documented and preserved to be used over again. (AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN--YES WE REPACT THIS JUNK INTO VARIOUS COMPILATIONS TO BE SOLD AS THE LATEST VERSTION OF TOP HITS! Back in 1998, almost every video was a new extract of some old rehashed junk. Much material is deteriorating due to the ravages of time. Particularly the film and video produced prior to 1990, much of which is in jeopardy and some of the video material from 1986-7 has been found to already be shedding oxide. Why do they care? They already tried to recall all the old stuff anyway. Remember? We were asked to send in any old AND IT IS DIVINE mags,WHO IS GURU MAHARAJ JI, old video tapes, and any other crap that might be incriminating. Even though restoration has begun, in the last year 22 original masters (including some events and two interviews from 1971) had already deteriorated and are lost forever. Is Prem pretending that he has lost videos of himself parading around as THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE. Geez, Maharaji, you should have come EPO. We have lots of this garbage. Tell us what you need. We'll be glad to send it to you for a CONTRIBUTION. However, Maharaji we only have three of the 20 programs you did in Kissimmee, 1978 which we will be glad to send you a copy of. Why didn't we get to see most of these?. Was it because you were drunk for most of the 'event' or was it because of the preposterous claims you made? Archiving is a huge undertaking. The first step of extensive sorting and inventory of materials has been completed. The older archives are now being kept in a film and video vault. It is climate controlled, providing ideal conditions for the best preservation of media elements, and monitored for heat, smoke, fire, flood and intrusion. We are especially concerned about the intrusion aspect. Some of this material is highly controversial and meant for X-rated eyes only. Technology now allows us to convert historical records to digital and maintain them. Cataloging and data base design are projects now being planned, but are dependent on the level of contributions. Of course, Prem doesn't really need any achives if his message is all the same. How come he's not selling tapes of himself at 13-35 in their entire unabridged version?

Subject: What's the deal these days? From: Gail To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 15:15:34 (EDT) Email Address: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com Message: I checked the Canadian site and there are no contact people left. I took the liberty of sending Phyllis Brown a get-well-soon card at Elan Vital E-mail headquarters. How about George Legere? Is he still on the premie dole? Getting donations must be harder around Canada. As far as I know, the cult members (all four of them) are still holed up in their rat holes watch satellite broadcasts of their Lord. I see that Visions has stopped selling trinkets, or have they gone underground. What's going on in your neck of the woods?

Subject: My neck of the woods? From: Cynthia To: Gail Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 15:29:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gail, As far as I know here in Vermont nothing is going on. Lots of premies got their own dishes so they probably just stay at home and watch Prem Pay Pal Rawat. My neck of the woods? It's fucking snowing today. April 28th, buds are out and trying to bloom and it's flipping snowing. Now that's getting old.:( I want spring. Gee, I guess I'm bored.... Cynthia

Subject: Cults on TV - TV Rawat From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 07:59:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Beside the maha, do you have an idea of how many cults OWN a channel in these various places ? Who, where, how many ? What the cost of the ‘free’ Viaccess card provided by Elan Communications ? How does the system work ? Suggested donation ? I’m into writing an article on the issue.

Subject: Re: Cults on TV - TV Rawat From: Thorin To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 08:18:46 (EDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: J-M This info is for the Euro braodcasts. I don't know about the Dish network in US or what they do do down under. The Elan Communications channel boadcast on Hotbird 13 East. When it first started (as Visions) you needed a Viaccess card. Since May of 2001 Elan broadcasts as Free To Air and no longer requires a conditional access (viaccess) card. Previously, I think you had to pay something like €20 pm. Elan still reserves the 'right' to broadcast encrypted (i.e. viaccess). I had a look on various other satelites broadcasting across Europe. Found Maharshi (can't remember the channel title but prob under their University banner or somesuch). Actually Elan is very tame compared to Maharshi (or whatever they call him these days). They go on and on about the Vedic sciences, with lots of charts, world governments blah blah. All of the presenters are sharply suited fellows with the exception of the main man who continues to be garlanded like he was in the 60's. Yes there are many other 'cults' broadcasting - if you count the countless number of religious channels. Some Islamic channels broadcast via multi-channel languages (incl French, English etc). one channel in particular (sorry can't remember name) has this real neat middle-east chap who speaks impecable English giving guidance to his devotees about the right lifestyle. Usually catch him justifying the different roles that men and woman have in life. Ha! And of course the USA bible-thumping, happy clappy channels. Thorin

Subject: Re: Cults on TV - TV Rawat From: Jean-Michel To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 10:20:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks. Do Jehovah Witnesses also have their channel ? What about Moon and other evangelists ?

Subject: Re: Cults on TV - TV Rawat From: Jean-Michel To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 14:12:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's the name of the TM/Maharishi's channel ? Do Elan Communication issue a Viaccess card to anybody asking for one, or do you have to be on the EV lists etc ?? They say it's 'free', but nothing about it.

Subject: Re: Cults on TV - TV Rawat From: Thorin To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 15:58:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: J-M Re Elan Communications. It is free-to-air. That is all you need is a dish pointed to the the relevant satelite, a digital receiver and thats it. No lists to join, no cards to get, no permissions to get. Hey even ex-premies can watch it if they really want to. But I must tell you that the content is vacous, mind-warping, and denuded of anything worthwhile. The channel seems to feature some Indian guy, who is getting rather long in the tooth, seems to have a serious skin problem but is great in remembering Hallmark card contents. Beyond that the channnel contains some new-agey supermarket type music and a pulsating thingy in the bottom right hand corner indicating that even non-English listeners are welcome. :) Nope never seen any Jehovah Witnesses TV channels. They seem to concentrate on books, booklets, newpapers and the like. Rev. Moon has a large collection of various websites but does not appear to broadcast regularly via satelites. They do seem to do a lot of web-casting and occasionaly book satelite time (I think to broadcast multiple weddings). Thorin

Subject: Maharishi via satellite From: Richard To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 15:31:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's Maharishi channeling Maharishi. :) Maharishi via satellite www.maharishi-india.org/worldwide.html

Subject: Only Mahas on TV ? From: Jean-Michel To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 17:07:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is totally surrealist !!!!!!!!!!

Subject: Jim has wayy too much time on his hands From: An Observer To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 17:45:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Pussy, you're chopped liver From: PatC To: An Observer Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 04:47:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like I said to ''James'' aka ''Quiet's mate'' below - I wasn't born yesterday. Sure you're using a couple of IP numbers BUT your slip is showing in a thread below. I'm sure you know what I mean. If any other ex IT sleuths are interested in this I will show them what a creepy little weasel you really are. Roupell said in his post re Amaraoo: ''If you can't be real with Prem - who can you be real with?'' It appears that you guys can't even be real with him with your fake egalitarianism - just one of the guys; your buddy (who me - brown-nosing?). So, I don't expect any cultweasels to be real when participating on the ex forums in a synchronized fashion. If you aren't a cult spin doctor, as I've said before, you sure are one fanatically dedicated dude. Do you think you are getting special brown-nose er sorry brownie points for being so committable er committed? Are you one person, a committee - the Borg? Don't you feel sick sometimes with the complicated deceit you have to endure all the while striving to be ''simple'' as His Holeyness advises?

Subject: No way J'ose From: Catweasel To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 17:19:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Notme junior. I dont have the time or the inclination. Conspiracy theories - again? Give me a break Pat....

Subject: Cat.... From: Cynthia To: Catweasel Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 17:45:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Go back to life's grating on you. Go meditate and get clear. Didn't you just see your Master? Are you emulating him? It shows.

Subject: And you? [nt] From: Cynthia To: An Observer Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 18:26:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Jim has wayy too much time on his hands From: AV To: An Observer Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 17:48:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, is it because you haven't got time on your hands that you didn't bother to answer my response to your post below...?

Subject: You're right! :) [nt] From: Jim To: An Observer Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 17:47:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: then get a hobby other than putting people down From: An Observer To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 17:49:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Jim is showing you true brotherly love From: Gail To: An Observer Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 23:11:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Believe it or not, Jim actually cares about you more than Prem ever did. He does great charity work here--true service. In all liklihood, you have had more interaction with Jim than you ever had with Prem. Jim's friend committed suicide because of his involvement with Maharaji. Jim doesn't want that same fate to befall you when you find out Maharaji is a fraud. I'd say that's pretty noble!

Subject: Jim's dirty little secret From: PatC To: Gail Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 04:04:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All joking aside......I know Jim uses humor to disguise his huge heart. But premies don't see that because they are so used to Rev Rawat's fake gushy sentimentality. Jim's dirty little secret - he's a good guy (which is why I never understood the ''Jim is a Bully'' campaigns that were launched here by three or four ex-premies several times during my tenure - but I'll let sleeping lady dogs lie.) When I first saw that the premies who ''participate synchronizedly'' on our forums cannot see his altruistic and philanthropic nature (albeit camouflaged,) I wondered if they were clever enough to deliberately pretend to misunderstand him but then I realized that it was probably because they are so ignorant of any form of love except that of the blowhard braggard puffed-up pompous pretentious two-faced Rev Rawat. Rev Prem's dirty little secret - he's an irresponsible greeeeeeeeeeeeeedy little piggy - oink oink all the way to the bank.

Subject: An Observer seems to be obsessed by Jim From: Alternate Observer To: An Observer Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 18:06:12 (EDT) Email Address: none Message:

Subject: Get yourself a name, observer [nt] From: Livia To: An Observer Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 17:56:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: To Liv: His Name.. From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 18:07:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: is Raven.... as in Raven bores....

Subject: Re: then get a hobby From: AV To: An Observer Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 17:51:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: to whom are you talking?

Subject: Visions has a new hobby From: gail To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 16:07:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The 30-year works of Maharaji in film, audiotape, videotape, still photography and text are stored in the archives. You can bet Prem has copies of everything he has done! Archives are documented and preserved to be used over again. (AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN--YES WE REPACT THIS JUNK INTO VARIOUS COMPILATIONS TO BE SOLD AS THE LATEST VERSTION OF TOP HITS! Back in 1998, almost every video was a new extract of some old rehashed junk. Much material is deteriorating due to the ravages of time. Particularly the film and video produced prior to 1990, much of which is in jeopardy and some of the video material from 1986-7 has been found to already be shedding oxide. Why do they care? They already tried to recall all the old stuff anyway. Remember? We were asked to send in any old AND IT IS DIVINE mags,WHO IS GURU MAHARAJ JI, old video tapes, and any other crap that might be incriminating. Even though restoration has begun, in the last year 22 original masters (including some events and two interviews from 1971) had already deteriorated and are lost forever. Is Prem pretending that he has lost videos of himself parading around as THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE. Geez, Maharaji, you should have come EPO. We have lots of this garbage. Tell us what you need. We'll be glad to send it to you for a CONTRIBUTION. However, Maharaji we only have three of the 20 programs you did in Kissimmee, 1978 which we will be glad to send you a copy of. Why didn't we get to see most of these?. Was it because you were drunk for most of the 'event' or was it because of the preposterous claims you made? Archiving is a huge undertaking. The first step of extensive sorting and inventory of materials has been completed. The older archives are now being kept in a film and video vault. It is climate controlled, providing ideal conditions for the best preservation of media elements, and monitored for heat, smoke, fire, flood and intrusion. We are especially concerned about the intrusion aspect. Some of this material is highly controversial and meant for X-rated eyes only. Technology now allows us to convert historical records to digital and maintain them. Cataloging and data base design are projects now being planned, but are dependent on the level of contributions. Of course, Prem doesn't really need any achives if his message is all the same. How come he's not selling tapes of himself at 13-35 in their entire unabridged version?

Subject: Re: Visions has a new hobby From: AV To: gail Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 16:20:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is a joke , right? burying information (the new dirty word), revisionism, and preserving the past at the same time, providing there are sufficient 'contributions........any body make sense of this? BTW, was M really pissed at Kissimee? (or kissed at Pissimee?)... Is THAT why I felt so f******g weirded out? Elvisly yours, AV

Subject: Re: Visions has a new hobby From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 16:57:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember a bad night at Kissimee, but don't recall if it was 78 or 79. Maharaji yelled at us all night and told us we were all useless, or words to that effect. A lot of people cried and got upset and quite a few left. Is there a new theory about his pique that night, then? Love, the barren old hag

Subject: Livia--you are right - 1979 From: Gail To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 17:17:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yup. I made a mistake about the year. Kissimmee, 1978 is the right year.

Subject: Re: Visions has a new hobby From: AV To: gail Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 16:19:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is a joke , right? burying information (the new dirty word), revisionism, and preserving the past at the same time, providing there are sufficient 'contributions........any body make sense of this? BTW, was M really pissed at Kissimee? (or kissed at Pissimee?)... Is THAT why I felt so f******g weirded out? Elvisly yours, AV

Subject: NO JOKE -CHECK Visions--archives new hobby From: Gail To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 16:47:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Analyse this -- CD SPEAKS! (from LG) From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 17:19:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Every few years or so (no exaggeration!), CD deigns to speak. He's done so again. Here, from LG, are the words of a premie: [Jerry]: So what is he a guide for? Who needs him if he's not Perfect Master, if he doesn't have the power to reveal God? [CD]: There are those who question, question, question. And then there are those who listen and learn something. Note the unique commingling of Kung Fu 'Grasshopper' talk and Empire Strikes Back Yoda. I still think it would sound better if he did it right, maybe something more like: 'Those who question, question, question, there are' but that's just me. CD cannot, will not, EVER have a real discussion. Swear to God. Any of you newer people don't believe me, he's in rare open (for CD, that is) form on LG. Go try it. He will not, cannot do it. So that's why he hates questions. They're the pesky bait that he knows is just there to lure him out of his rabbit hole. Funny in the extreme, then, when he invokes the spirit of Socrates of all people a little further on! I have found Maharaji to be a good teacher. He discusses a subtle and difficult subject. I have not always understood what he said, not always believed what he said or not always liked what he said. Yet overall I have learned valuable lessons from listening to him. And practising K has opened my awareness to something beyond typical thinking. Well you can say that again, CD. He's opened your mind to cult thinking, buddy! You know, the kind where you don't even want to look in there because you've been told not to? That one? Anyway, if CD were a regular human being saying what he said there, you'd rightly think he's opened the door to all sorts of interesting questions. Like what exactly has Maharaji said that he didn't like? Or understand? Hey, what did Maharaji say he didn't BELIEVE? And after all that, what's left in Maharaji's words that make him a good teacher? What were his valuable lessons? Listen, I would just love to see any of you -- AV, Livia, Bai Ji, Boli Shri, or any of the other new people try to ask him any of this stuff. It's like talking to the Sphinx, you'll find. But, please, try ... prove me wrong. Hell, I don't mind. It's all entertainment. I don't think it can be proved that M is good or bad for you. The debate will take place but there will not be any winners. People who appreciate M as a teacher have usually understood something that is worthwhile to them. Yeah its a personal thing. A personal revelation. Not something completely explained in a book. The bottom line of what M has taught is look inside yourself and find answers in an experience. Some people will never beleive that such an experience is real. Some people understand that experience. Yes, it is too simple and eludes logic. But the foundations of our existence eludes logic. I have said many times that scientific theories and explanations are only models for an infinite reality that can never be comprehended with our ideas. The best scientists and mathmeticians know this. People knowing a bit about the subjects often don't. This, of course, is a COMPLETE and, by now I'll say wilfull, aberration of how and what scientists think. Complete. If logic was of no use there wouldn't even BE any science. No, CD is a liar herre and he knows it. One more reason why he won't -- never, ever, won't -- defend his ideas in debate. I read the other day that Pythagoras was starved to death after being forced to take refuge in a temple in his old age. Socrates was condemned by righteous intellectual type people. Certain ways of viewing the world are often not understood or welcome. Yes, and what a bizarro world this is, isn't it, when someone can use great, vibrant, courageous and persistent minds as poster boys for the biggest 'Know Nothing' scam of all time? Shameless, isn't it? The very last thing in the world that CD would ever even think of engaging in is a Socratic dialogue. How dare he even mention his name, the worm! The world today is in a chaos of ideas. These conflicting ideas are not leading to a better life for people. At this time I feel that the message to feel peace inside in a simple experience should be welcome news. We will not debate our way to 'peace'. That seems pretty obvious. This is CD in his Klattu ('The Day the Earth Stood Still') costume: 'Greetings, earthlings, I come in peace....' Can you imagine a world of CD's? I guess it's like imagining a world of Heaven's Gaters or any other cult members. People whose goal is to avoid thought scare me. It's such a compromise of human nature it feels like a betrayal or something. Pod people like CD can smile because they are in 'smile' mode. 'Are we not men? We are premies!' Jerry, you say M is a fraud. Fine, to you he is. To others he is a valuable teacher. We will disagree and each go with what our personal experience has been. I hope that people will find that there is a common unity and peace beyond ideas. Jerry, if one day in your meandering in the arrid desert you come upon a little boy, and you ask that little boy, he will show you the secret of peace beyond ideas. Until then, go and be with yourself. (I can't say 'go with peace' because peace is not yours. To have peace you have to be like the Sphinx. You're not even trying.)

Subject: Re: Analyse this -- CD SPEAKS! (from LG) From: Bolly Shri To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 10:26:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, Could you clarify something here? Aperantly M has never read a book, I don't want to go into the issue of adolescant males and their lack of reading at this juncture,but I do wonder about these great thinkers he so often quotes. Is it the case that in being surrounded by yes men and women, who would not wish to diminish him while in his company none of them has had the temerity to inform him that a few loose quotes from the back of a cereal packet doth no an insight into the philosophy make? When I read in an earlier posting how the anointed one never read a book and put this fact with the nodding dogs he is surrounded by it went some way to explaining why his diatribes have become increasingly meanmingless over the years. I assume that during his catholic school days he was like me made to read a little.

Subject: Re: Analyse this -- CD SPEAKS! (from LG) From: Unspecified Neville To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 20:13:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I recall that at the Alexander Palace Guru Puja in London in '73 there were giant paintings hanging from all the pillars, supposedly of previous Perfect Masters. One picture was of Socrates, although how such a rationalist can be associated with the abandonment of mind defeats me. CD's comment, that Socrates was 'condemned by righteous intellectual type people' is a side swipe at thinkers, but CD is employing an unjustifiable spin: my information is that Socrates was actually condemned by a bunch of politicos trying to defend Athenian democracy. CD is twisting history to support his anti-mind stance. Neville

Subject: One should not speak ill of the dead. [nt] From: PatC channeling his dead mother To: Unspecified Neville Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 04:08:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Amaroo Day 3 (Final update): Bovine Dung From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 14:23:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here is the updated version of the report we've previously seen. Just a few comments: A matter of proportion As with all our Amaroo 2002 reports, what follows is an informal account which in no way reflects the full scope of the event. THE MORNING OF SUNDAY, 21 APRIL It was yet another captivating day to hear Maharaji talk. 'The preciousness of each breath,' he said sublimely, ' does not diminish with quantity.' That's sublime? Uh oh, looks like we're in for treacly-servility-on-a-stick again. It's a field report from a real Happy Clapper. Amaroo can be a noisy place - the early morning cacophony of bird song; but it can also be a quiet place - never more so than during events when the lingering silence of nature that spreads across the land is somehow amplified by the quiet concentration of thousands of people listening to Maharaji. On this, the last morning of the event, he talked about one of life's cruel ironies: that we take the ones we love the most for granted. 'Ultimately,' he said, 'we care for them the least...' Hm, could he possibly be referring to the wife he's humiliated for years by his quasi-open relationship with his mistress, not to mention other pecadillos with fish-farmed premie women or is he, rather, talking about his mother and siblings? Whoever he's talking about, it's a very telling high mark of cynicism that not everyone can relate to thankfully. Kind of like the guy who comes up to you says 'You know how nasty it gets when you've been up on a four-day bender on every drug you can find and you start to lose it so bad you can't even TELL when you're driving, let alone IF you're on the right side of the road?' Sorry, Maharaji, no I DON'T know what you mean. But we have to understand the value of the person who is 'kind enough to remind us that today is precious, so special. Not that it is going to unfold, but just that it is happening.' It was not important what you called this person – guru, satguru, master or teacher. Ah yes, true love indeed. Forget your OTHER loved ones. You never really loved them that much to begin with. Now your guru, satguru, whatever you call him, HE's a different story. 'Somebody criticises every one of them: 'Master reminds me of the slave days.' 'Teacher reminds me of the classroom…'' 'It is not as through the names creates the person. The person has to be there first.' Wrong! The concept was there first, everything else is just filler. That's how HE got there, after all. Big fat conceptual gaping hole when Shri Hans died and all the lost little premies are wandering around like the little chickie in the kid's book, 'Are You My Mother?' only it's more like 'Are You My Satguru?' He described how we are in awe of architectural marvels such as the Pyramids and the Taj Mahal, but 'do not have the eye' to see the wonders of the whole creation. 'Nobody looks at people and says what a great accomplishment… People don't realise it is the people who made the Pyramids…' Facile! Not worthy of further comment. Wrong in all directions. Wrong in fact, wrong in inference. 'Each one of us is living our life on this earth, wanting from the depth of our heart to be happy, from the depths of our heart to be content…' But 'who can remind you of that real responsibility' to find that happiness? So many people are keen to remind us of our many other responsibilities. And people say to me: 'What about the practicalities. I am torn.' THE REAL GEOMETRY OF JOY In response, he talked about the geometry of joy and the golden rule of proportions used by the great architect Frank Lloyd Wright in many of his works. It was important to establish the golden rule of proportions in our lives by remembering what is important, and making that a priority. Oh great! That's what I needed! A new, completely forced and useless metaphor to add to all the other completely forced and useless metaphors he's given me for the past thirty years. Yes, the Geometry of Joy, why didn't I think of that? Just goes to show, we're not all cut out to be gurus, or satgurus, or masters, or whatever you want to call them ... He advised that we don't be too hard on ourselves: 'Do not try to change the nature of your forgetting.' Ah yes, only the guru can bore you to tears in JUST...THAT...WAY... turning whatever boring homily or truism inside out or upside down, just for the hell of it. Yes, I know, this is the stock and trade of every dumb-ass sermon in every dumb-ass church on any given Sunday. But who does it best, eh? Credit where it's due ... Our minds tell us that we must never forget and thus do not offer an easy avenue out of such dilemmas. 'I've thought about this,' he said. 'And we do need to forget.' The same way as with a computer if we don't clear the hard drive it will eventually stop working.' Again prioritising our lives was the key. 'Write a note in the notebook of the heart, so that it will come up again and again. That is what love is all about. It is not a static thing. It needs to live. It needs to breathe. It is not a picture on the wall; it is something very real.' Hey that's brilliant! The Notebook of the Heart! And to think that I almost listened to those assholes at work trying to guilt-trip me for leaving them to finish the project while I came here -- again. What do they know? Well, tell you what. I'm just going to make myself a little note here in my Notebook of the Heart to show them just how incredible this all really is ... I know! I'll show them that Leaders Magazine article! 'Appreciation of Knowledge has to be there every day,' he continued, 'so does appreciation of that person who reminds us. Without that person Knowledge would just become a static thing.' Have you ever known anyone like this? Who spends all this time reminding you how you have to, above all else, keep appreciating him? Couldn't be a ... CULT LEADER, could it? No, that'd be too weird ... Returning to proportion he cautioned that because we have a limited amount of energy we have to ration it. The best advise is to say to yourself: 'What is important?' 'The art is not to rescue yourself from being angry – that's impossible. The answer is to rescue yourself before you get there – that's possible.' He used the analogy of Indian irrigation: 'They have to channel the water to their fields. They cannot move the canal. It is too big. This is what you have to do. This is your time, so now you have got to dig the channel so that you can drink the water.' Just another coded way of justifying stonewalling his critics, no? We come empty-handed but we don't have to leave empty-handed. 'What a powerful statement that is,' he said. ' I think about that so much.' Again the cosmological question, what the hell is he talking about? Door prizes on the way out? His salvation? What? Now is the time, he went on, to channel that water bring forth and raise those crops, to extract and receive. 'This is what you are good at. You are good at receiving, so receive. You are not so good at giving.' No, bud, that's YOU, you're talking about, with that not so good at giving thing BOVINE DUNG He described how he has coined a new and 'polite' phrase to replace the harsh description of all the nonsense that gets talked and passed along as authoritative information. To roars of laughter he introduced the audience to 'bovine dung.' Here's why I even bothered -- 'roars of laughter'????? At this completely nothing -- why, it's not EVEN a joke, it's not even a smile, it's, it's, it's worse than a lame pun, it's ... it's NOTHING!!! And it elicited ROARS of laughter?? He talked of two kinds of party. The first he described as an 'assortment of bovine dung.' Here, some people find it difficult to talk and have to break down their inhibitions by drinking because 'being sober they would never be able to do it.' Now, really, what would HE know about THAT? It makes them unconscious so that they can spend their time exchanging bovine dung. Don't tell me. I bet every time he said that, yeah, that's right -- ROARS OF LAUGHTER .... The other kind of party is going on within, and no liquid is required to break down any inhibitions, going there makes you conscious. What a brilliant illustration! He explained that the words we use such as service inhibit us in his work which is now global and breaking the boundaries of culture and how liberating it would be to break free from them. We don't want to be like the person who is driving a car while looking at the speedo and not out of the windows – and then after the inevitable accident, he justifies himself by saying: 'Well, I was driving at the speed limit.' We have to take a fundamental approach – 'to help in any which way I can.' Not: 'I have to do service…' 'Most importantly for the first time,' he explained, 'Knowledge is being offered. Before it was not being offered, you got lucky.' In Sri Maharaj Ji's day, people literally used to camp out where he lived because they knew that he would return there. 'All the words we are creating are inhibiting us. For a long time it was just Maharaji, I don't care what they call me. Don't just latch on to a new name. Modernisation is just to change the world. We don't want to modernise Knowledge. We don't want to make Knowledge more palatable; it is already palatable… 'We need to unstick ourselves from all the barriers we have created.' Yeah, like your history, your track record, your promises, prophecies, threats ... all them damn barriers. 'If you feel comfortable with Knowledge and have a wide palette of materials available everyone can take an interest in telling people or giving them materials.' I'm signing up. Anything with all those resources just has to be good ..... THE AFTERNOON EVENT Done. It was a truly 'lovely' afternoon In the heat of the afternoon sun, 3,000 people sat on the grass in a field - in absolute silence. They were awaiting the arrival of Maharaji - who had promised to come and hold a further 'interactive' session. Some were contemplating the things they might tell him about if they had the chance.. Others were contemplating something a little deeper - and more private stilll. You could almost taste the tranquility in the air - were it not already so sweet with the scent of eucalyptus bark from the trees on the edge of the clearing. And then, a golf buggy drew up silently - and Maharaji, resplendent in red casual shirt... walked straight up to the makeshift stage and began. One of the first people to take the Microphone was Maria from Vancouver. She explained how s he had never spoken to Maharaji before and her friends thought this was odd. He said: 'Well, now you have spoken to me!' She replied: 'Yes, now I can tell them we are really tight.' Raising what was to be the topic of the day, she spoke of her endless longing to speak to - and be near to her teacher. Maharaji asked her if she liked the feeling of longing. She said, 'I love it!' Next came an elderly lady from Japan who invited Maharaji to visit Japan. Maharaji complimented her on her English and then pointed out that he had so many places he wanted to go - and so many places he had not been to for such a long time. He went on to speak about how well the Portugese were doing for getting so many new people interested. He spoke of how 'political' it could become in a country when people fall out with one another. He spoke of the games we get caught up in: It is too easy to complain. Don't climb over people's heads. Work jointly. He described his aviation team... and how important it was for people to work together when flying. Likewise, he said, the area of propagation was no place in which to go making mistakes! Then he told a story. Once, a master was going for a walk. He heard cries of 'help, help!' He saw a man, caught up in a thorn bush. Ripped clothes. Crying help. The master untangled him and took him home. He gave him new clothes (his old ones were shredded.) The man was grateful. He ended up getting Knowledge. But then one day, he started getting into all his concepts. So the master said: 'OK, go to the jungle and get me some berries.' And then, again, it is 'help, help!!!' The master said: How come you got caught here. He said: 'I could free myself but you gave me those clothes and it would have torn them.' The master said: 'Never mind the clothes. They are like concepts. You need to be FREE! And so it is with us: we think we are immune from concepts - but we are none of us are invulnerable to fallling out with one another. A guy from Miami asked Maharaji if he could come and retire at Amaroo. Given the ages of some of his students, Maharaji said that he had been giving the subject of retirement some thought A young lady also from Miami stood up at the back. She said she would likke to get closer to Maharaji- so he invited her to come sit at the front... which after a little persuasion, she did. She said she had no family - but to her, Maharaji is everything. Maharaji described himself as being like a river, moving fast. He said there is never a dull moment around him... Later this proved very true as Gail from Melbourne said hello and Maharaji said G'day in reply. She told Maharaji about her kids, her friends, her plans to leave Melbourne and her dog, a border collie who doesn't like to wash.... much to the amjusement of all. The laughter continued when Maharaji started speaking to an English woman, who was true to the stereotype having difficulty expressing what she wanted to say. He said that she wasn't English - that was a language - but British - and that everything was 'lovely'. A truly British sort of word, that kept on being repeated and repeated topeels of laughter. And it seemed tobe quickly adopted by people of all nations as they walked away from the campground in the lucid air of a brilliantly clear dusk.

Subject: You missed it, Jim From: New-Age Redneck To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 20:06:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, this one is OBVIOUS: '...On this, the last morning of the event, he talked about one of life's cruel ironies: that we take the ones we love the most for granted. 'Ultimately,' he said, 'we care for them the least...'' He's setting himself up for retirement. To insure an 'adequate' income, he's guilting the premies into making sure they 'care' about him. After all, didn't he deliver on every single promise he made?

Subject: I flunked geometry... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 16:15:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, Here's Frank's quote: Architecture is the triumph of Human Imagination over materials, methods, and men, to put man into possession of his own Earth. It is at least the geometric pattern of things, of life, of the human and social world. It is at best that magic framework of reality that we sometimes touch upon when we use the word 'order.' - Frank Lloyd Wright, 1930, 1937 P.S. Architects have their own ''cult-speak'' :)

Subject: Re: Amaroo Day 3 (Final update): Bovine Dung From: Dermot To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 15:49:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Appreciation of Knowledge has to be there every day,' he continued, 'so does appreciation of that person who reminds us. Without that person Knowledge would just become a static thing.' Have you ever known anyone like this? Who spends all this time reminding you how you have to, above all else, keep appreciating him? Couldn't be a ... CULT LEADER, could it? No, that'd be too weird ... Bingo! 'We need to unstick ourselves from all the barriers we have created.' Yeah, like your history, your track record, your promises, prophecies, threats ... all them damn barriers. again...Bingo! The guy is clearly a self-serving, waffling simpleton who just so happens to know a good opportunity when he sees one. Curiously, he still has some adherents who think he's the wisest guy on the planet! That's showbiz folks! :)

Subject: You have no sense of humor, Jim From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 14:38:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''...fish-farmed premie women?'' That'll keep me giggling for the rest of today.

Subject: Blonde fish, I assume. [nt] From: The Other Neville To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 16:11:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: This wasn't funny either, Jim From: gerry To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 15:44:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: '...when Shri Hans died and all the lost little premies are wandering around like the little chickie in the kid's book, 'Are You My Mother?' only it's more like 'Are You My Satguru?' hehe

Subject: Is this stuff funny or what? (OT) From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 13:45:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ted Danson (Cheers) is playing the 'medium' James Van Praagh in a movie and they both appeared on Larry King the other night. Danson's a full believer, which is kind of funny in a completely pathetic kind of way. At one point, Van Praagh starts taking calls. The results are hilarious. Really, anyone who can't see the sleight of mouth tricks below must not be looking. What do you think?: KING: You'll see it Sunday night April 28 and it concludes Tuesday night April 30. We'll remain with James Van Praagh and we'll take your calls. We go to Ontario. Hello. CALLER: Good evening, Larry. Mr. Van Praagh. My mother's passed away now. It has been four years. I was wondering if you might be able to tell me perhaps maybe if she's trying to get in touch with me some way? VAN PRAAGH: I will tell you something. I want to ask you, on your wall is there a picture that fell off the wall? Or that's loose and came down? That you remember, a frame that you picked up off the floor? CALLER: In the living room? VAN PRAAGH: Or a frame that fell down on a shelf or living room that came down on the floor. Because I'm being shown -- I don't know why I'm being shown this on a wall with a lot of pictures. You understand? And a lot of family photos, too. I'm seeing them altogether. One of them came down or fell off. CALLER: Well, there's a table where they fall off sometimes. VAN PRAAGH: I want to ask you, did you pick up the frame or picture that fell over? That's what I'm being told that she was there pushing some picture over that fell down. That's what I'm being told. KING: The mother was? VAN PRAAGH: Uh-huh. I want to ask you was there a facility you had to put her in or take care of her? CALLER: No. She was just in the hospital. VAN PRAAGH: The hospital. I don't know -- well, a facility is a hospital. I'm also being told that also I feel like two days before she passes over, she's completely out of it. CALLER: Yes, she was, yes. VAN PRAAGH: Completely out of it and didn't know where she was. But this picture thing is coming like pushing a picture down or picking up a frame. I want to tell you there's a small dog there with her. I don't know what this means. CALLER: There's a dog that my daughters walk every day. He's down the street a couple of doors down. VAN PRAAGH: I don't like that. It's a dog that's passed over. It's not a dog here, it is a dog that passed over that greets her when she comes into spirit. KING: All right. Thank you. To Clearwater, Florida. With James Van Praagh. Hello. CALLER: Yes. Larry? For your guest, James. VAN PRAAGH: Yes, ma'am. How are you. CALLER: I'm very good. Thank you. Good to talk with you. We lost our father about 19 months ago. Of course we're all very sad but we'd like to know if there's any unfinished business he'd want us to do? He was just that kind of person. And how he is. VAN PRAAGH: Are there three in the family by the way? CALLER: Yes, there are. VAN PRAAGH: Three of you get together. Two females and a male, that's what I'm looking at. This man shows me a lot of military. CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: That was a big deal to him. He's having a reunion, reunited with people that were in the military with him. I like the water with this man, I like seeing the water, being around the water with him. I don't know if it was the oceanfront, but I see water with him. I'm going to tell you I feel it was a heart condition also. So now why he has a heart problem? CALLER: No. VAN PRAAGH: Who has a heart, chest condition. CALLER: No, he didn't. VAN PRAAGH: Hold on. Was there someone in the family that went for a cardiogram. CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: Who was that, please? A brother or something? CALLER: A sister. VAN PRAAGH: Would you tell her it's going to be OK? I feel she is worried about the heart and this cardiogram didn't -- it looks like she has to go back for another one. KING: That has nothing to do with the dead person, right? That's picking up something else, right? CALLER: He is worried about that? VAN PRAAGH: Yes, he's concerned about her. And he's telling me to let you know that she'll be OK. But it feels like it is not finished yet. But the heart thing, do you understand that? She has to go back in and finish it. CALLER: How about my mother? Anything for her? VAN PRAAGH: I'm going to tell you something very much. I don't know if your mother has headaches, but there's something about her head that he's talking to me about with your mother. The head area he's talking about with headaches. CALLER: Head area. OK. VAN PRAAGH: I just want to tell you that this man comes to your mother a lot. He comes behind her. I don't know what that means... KING: When you say like headaches, what are you hearing in your head to say headaches? VAN PRAAGH: I'm getting a thought of headaches. And I'm seeing this lady and behind her head. KING: Do you see the man? VAN PRAAGH: No, not in that situation. KING: Sometimes you do? VAN PRAAGH: Sometimes I very clearly do. KING: Even though it is a spirit. VAN PRAAGH: They're very real, solid people. KING: Rochester, New York. Hello? New Hampshire, I'm sorry, go ahead. CALLER: I lost my husband in March of '99. I'd like to know if you could tell me something about him. Thank you for the privilege to be able to talk to you. Like a prayer being answered. Thank you, Larry and James. VAN PRAAGH: What is your first name? CALLER: Janet. VAN PRAAGH: When I tune into your voice, I'm going to tell you I have to give what I'm getting. I want to tell you it feels like there's some medical problems going on here recently with you. CALLER: With me? VAN PRAAGH: Yes. Do you understand that? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: Because I want to tell you that there's concern about you with medical problems and seeing two different doctors. You understand that? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: I want to tell you that there's a specialist that you just recently saw, do you understand that? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: This man that is your husband, I believe he is, I am just telling there is two men behind you. He's helping you with this situation. I don't know why I'm going to your knees or legs. Did he have problem with the knees or legs? CALLER: Lately I have. VAN PRAAGH: There's some problem with leg or knee, which needs to be looked at again, but that is one thing. The other medical thing is something different. You know that. But be careful of the knee area. CALLER: All right. VAN PRAAGH: I'm going to tell you something, there's two men there. One must be your father. Because there's two men coming in strongly. I also see a Jim or Jimmy person also. I'm going to tell you something to do with -- it sounds strange. Who collects rocks? CALLER: Who collects rocks? VAN PRAAGH: Boulders or rocks. I don't know what that means. If your husband had a rock in the house or rocks or collected something with rock collection. Geology. KING: Thank you, ma'am. We're back with James Van Praagh and don't forget the story of his book, 'Heaven And Earth' will be on CBS Sunday and Tuesday night. Tomorrow night on this program, King Constantine, the king of Greece in exile in Great Britain. Don't go away. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: James Van Praagh reminds me that this movie is based on his first book, 'Talking to Heaven,' and how it all started on this program, right? You came on this show. VAN PRAAGH: That's right, December of '97. We had 6,000 printed initially, because they didn't believe in the book. The publisher said nobody will buy a book about talking to dead people. I said, it will be a number one best seller. I'm a psychic. I know these things. Listen to me. And after your show, thank you, God, Larry, it went to 600,000 within three months. And now it's, gosh, 30 different languages around the world, millions of copies. (CROSSTALK) KING: I know when you were first booked, I thought what the heck is this? VAN PRAAGH: What the heck is this. KING: Winterhaven, Florida, with James Van Praagh. Hello. CALLER: Hi. How are you tonight? KING: Hi. VAN PRAAGH: Good. How are you? CALLER: Fine. VAN PRAAGH: How can I help you? CALLER: I lost a daughter in 1987, and I'd like to hear from her. KING: How old was she? CALLER: She was 15. VAN PRAAGH: Was this cancer condition at all? CALLER: No. VAN PRAAGH: Was it blood related? CALLER: No. VAN PRAAGH: How was she killed? CALLER: Hit by a car. VAN PRAAGH: What's her first name? CALLER: Christy. Her first name or mine? VAN PRAAGH: No, her first name. CALLER: It was Christy. VAN PRAAGH: Let me ask you something, because I don't -- you know, I just get what I get and I can only give you something that I get. Was there a baby born after she passed over, in the family? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: Because this might sound very strange to you, but she wants me to tell you that she's a guide for this baby. I don't know if it's a brother's baby. CALLER: There's been three. VAN PRAAGH: OK. Does the brother have a baby? CALLER: Let me see -- there's been four girls born since her. VAN PRAAGH: OK. Well, there's a baby there that the brother has that she's a guide to also. I'm going to tell you that someone in the family is a teacher, OK, or wanted to go into teaching. All right? I'm going to tell you that this girl -- she forgives the person that did this to her, very much so. And I'm telling you she's telling me she came to your dreams just recently? CALLER: I very seldom remember my dreams. VAN PRAAGH: Well, she said she's been in your dreams. And I also see a kitten. And I don't know why I'm being shown a cat or kitten. But I don't know if she had a kitten or a cat? CALLER: I called her cat. Those were her initials. VAN PRAAGH: OK. Well, maybe why she's showing me this. But that's what I'm being given you. I'll tell you right now, she's there at night a lot around you in your dream state. I'm going ask you also, did you have a little vegetable garden when she was alive? CALLER: Her grandmother did. VAN PRAAGH: OK. And is her grandmother in the spirit now? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: OK. She's talking about helping her with that garden. Do you remember her helping with the vegetable garden? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: You remember that? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: With tomatoes and carrots, and she's talking about helping grandma doing this. She's with this grandmother, which must be your mother or something. CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: She's connected with her with you. CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: OK? I'm going to tell you something also. I don't know if there's a watch of hers you have and also a locket of some sort, but she's talking about that. I also want to tell you one more thing. Is there a footstool in your house? CALLER: No. VAN PRAAGH: Well, who puts their feet up? She helps someone put their feet up with a pillow underneath their feet. I don't know if she's helping grandma, but she's showing me putting a pillow underneath someone's feet. CALLER: May have been my mother. VAN PRAAGH: I think -- would you check that out? KING: OK. I thank you. Boy. Brownsville, Texas, hello. CALLER: Good evening. KING: Hi. CALLER: Hi. I had a cousin who passed away five years ago. She was taken away very quickly. And I was just wondering if she had anything to say to me or my sister who took it very hard. VAN PRAAGH: Well, you know, just because you want to contact someone doesn't mean that person is going to show up. So I got to tell you that first of all. And what I do is just tune into -- the way it works is I tune into your voice and whatever happens happens. I'm going to tell you something which I pick up around you, too. This might sound very strange. But I feel there's a man who committed suicide. And I don't know if your association with this person is through the school days, like a classmate of yours. And I want to go back a little bit, but I feel there's a man here who committed suicide. And I'm seeing it done with pills. OK? CALLER: With pills? VAN PRAAGH: Yeah. Now, do you have a younger brother at all? CALLER: Yes, I do. VAN PRAAGH: Would you please ask him if that's an association he has with suicides. Because he's talking about a younger brother of yours and a connection with him. And there's a suicide here. I'm sorry, but I have to tell you that. The message is to give his mother -- and I get the name Michael. CALLER: Yes, that's my brother. VAN PRAAGH: I'll tell you, he's telling me to tell Michael about a suicide. He'll know who he is, this man is, because he went to school with him. Now it's all coming in. CALLER: He said to tell my brother? VAN PRAAGH: Yes. CALLER: OK. VAN PRAAGH: And would you tell Michael to tell this guy's mom that he's all right. CALLER: OK. VAN PRAAGH: OK? CALLER: OK. VAN PRAAGH: And a message for the mother, too, from him. As proof, validation, would you please -- he's telling me that the mother just recently bought a new brush for her hair. It might sound strange to you. But if you please give that information, she'll know that's from her son. That little bit of information. Do you understand? The new brush. Tell Michael. Thank you. KING: We'll be back with James Van Praagh and more calls after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: James Van Praagh, Ted Danson with us earlier. The film, 'Living With The Dead' will air Sunday night, and conclude on Tuesday night on CBS. Tomorrow night, King Constantine of Greece. The next caller is Brunswick, Maine. Hello. CALLER: Hi. KING: Hi. CALLER: I had a brother who was shot in 1994. And in the beginning they said that it was suicide, but when my family -- we all went down to Texas, and then they said that it was -- they didn't know if it was murder or suicide and he was also robbed. Can you tell me if -- VAN PRAAGH: I feel there were two people involved here, and I feel there's a name Robert which is involved here. I don't know what that means. CALLER: No. VAN PRAAGH: No, do you know the murderer who murdered him? CALLER: Well, the kid was like 23. VAN PRAAGH: Do you know his name. CALLER: It was Sean. VAN PRAAGH: Who is the Robert involved? CALLER: I don't know. VAN PRAAGH: There's a Robert involved in this also. CALLER: Really? KING: Was he murdered? VAN PRAAGH: I feel he was murdered. I also feel there was money involved here. And I feel some drugs involved here, I really do. You know, your brother -- God bless him, but I don't think he wasn't telling you honestly... CALLER: My brother was a contractor in Dallas, Texas. And when our family all got down there, he was robbed of jewelry in a strong box. He was a major contractor and he made a lot of money building. VAN PRAAGH: Yes, I think that he had another lifestyle, also. I don't think he -- but it seems when he portrays -- KING: Is he telling you this? VAN PRAAGH: I'm feeling this, on an intuitive level. CALLER: Really? VAN PRAAGH: I'm not feeling him here. I'm not picking him up at all. I'm just telling her what I am feeling psychic intuitively. But I'm not feeling him. But I'm telling you that I know that this man led two different lives. And I really feel this way. And was he married once for a brief period? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: A very short period. Because there's something about this, I don't know why. CALLER: Yes. KING: Now I am amazed. Thank you, ma'am. When you pick that up, from where? Like you picked up that he was married for a brief period. From where? VAN PRAAGH: Well, it's energy. KING: Did he say to you that he was married for a brief period? Did a voice come into your head? Explain it to me. VAN PRAAGH: Well, you know, many times when I do this. I'll have spirits next to me or in front of me, and they'll talk to me, I'll get it very strongly. Or other times I'll just tune into on a psychic level, an intuitive level, which means this energy. I tune into her voice and I pick up these things. With him, I did not feel him next to me, saying this to me. It was something I was picking up. KING: Infeld (ph), Connecticut. Hello. CALLER: Hi, Larry. I love your show. Hey James. VAN PRAAGH: Hey, how are you? You have great energy. CALLER: Thank you. VAN PRAAGH: A lot of movement around you soon, but it feels like a move soon very much with you. CALLER: Really? VAN PRAAGH: Yes, geographically. I don't know feels like it. KING: What's your question. CALLER: My question is I lost my mom last year, and my daughter about ten years ago. And I was wondering if they're together. And I also wonder if it was my fault that I lost my baby? KING: How old was your daughter? CALLER: She was stillborn. VAN PRAAGH: Yes. You know, it was not your fault that you lost your daughter because that was a divine plan for her. She had to go through that. That was not your fault whatsoever, so you should not do that to yourself. Anybody who has had that experience, that situation, really should realize that it is not your fault. There's a bigger plan here OK? I want to tell you that I feel a mother around you and your sister, but there is also another lady there. And a man there. I really have to tell you that. I think there's a twin somewhere in the family, as well. OK? CALLER: A twin that has passed or... VAN PRAAGH: I don't know. I'm being told about twins in the family. CALLER: My sister has twin daughters. VAN PRAAGH: OK. There are twins in the family. And these people are around the twins. CALLER: Oh, good. I'm so glad. VAN PRAAGH: All right. Like guides of some sort to them. There is artwork. Someone is starting to do artwork. CALLER: I'm going to enroll my son and my niece in art. And my brother is a graphic designer. VAN PRAAGH: Well, that's art. They're talking to me about doing these things. I want to tell you that you're a wonderful person. You have a very good heart, a very big heart. And you're a healer. Also, I want to tell you that if you started playing the piano you should go back to it. CALLER: I want to learn to play. VAN PRAAGH: Well, I'm being told by your mom that you need to go with that piano, because she's been pressing you to do the piano. Do you understand that? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: And just a couple days ago you did something with a piano music or looking at a piano. And you thought about either playing it or calling someone about that. CALLER: Yes. With my little boy. VAN PRAAGH: Do you understand that? Just recently that happened. That is what she telling me here. KING: Good luck, dear. That was great. Now, Pittsfield, Massachusetts. Hello. CALLER: Hi, Mr. Van Praagh. VAN PRAAGH: Hello. CALLER: Nice talking with you. I lost my mom in December '97, my dad in January 2000. I was wondering if you... VAN PRAAGH: I'm going to tell you there's somebody here with a cancer condition. Was it your dad? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: Because I feel cancer. And I feel lungs, also. I feel with him also, it could be emphysema at one point, too or trouble with his lungs breathing. CALLER: The lungs it was my mother. VAN PRAAGH: Well, I am getting lungs and trouble breathing here. I also want to tell you that these two are very connected. I don't know. Did you say they passed very closely in time? CALLER: Two years apart. VAN PRAAGH: One of them had a brother over there who met them when they passed over. Hadn't seen this brother for a very long time, OK. CALLER: Yes. That would be my father, he had a couple brothers. VAN PRAAGH: Well, there was a brother there for a long time. He hadn't seen him. He was very impressed -- he was very happy to see this guy. Your father, by your way, didn't believe in this sort of thing. Very skeptical of this sort of thing. But he is a true believer now. A name Joseph comes in also or Joe. And that's interesting, very strong in front of me. CALLER: I don't know who that is. VAN PRAAGH: Did you have to give your mother medications? CALLER: Did I have to give her? VAN PRAAGH: Who gave her the medications. She's telling me that there were medications that she had to receive. CALLER: She did have a lot of medications, nothing I gave her directly. VAN PRAAGH: But there was a schedule of medications she had to get. Every hour. She had to receive medications. I also want to ask you is there a box of hers you have, a jewelry box? CALLER: No. VAN PRAAGH: Who has a box of hers, like a jewelry box of some sort? CALLER: Oh, god, I don't -- I don't know. KING: We are running out of time. VAN PRAAGH: Well, I'm being shown it, and it has flowers on it. KING: Do you like this power you have? VAN PRAAGH: No -- yes and no. I like it when... KING: Brought you fame? VAN PRAAGH: That's nothing. That comes along with bringing the word out to people. The healing I can bring to thousands and thousands of people, and help to remind them who they really are as a spiritual being. That's the greatest part. The negative part of it is, you know, it is hard to be this responsible. KING: James, as always. VAN PRAAGH: Thanks Larry. KING: He started here. James Van Praagh, the famous spiritual medium, best selling author. The new book is 'Heaven and Earth: Making the Psychic Connection,' written after September 11th. And he starts his own syndicated show this fall. And the story about him with Ted Danson airs Sunday night and then Tuesday night on CBS. We'll tell you about tomorrow night and the weekend after these words.

Subject: Gullability, quantified From: The Other Neville To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 16:17:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: British scientist Sue Blackmore once went out on the streets with some dice, tested people's ability to calculate chances and asked them about their superstitions. She found a direct relationship between superstition and an inability to calculate chances. Like, for example, the chances that a picture once fell off a wall. The UK, no-placard Neville

Subject: Re: Gullability, quantified From: Cynthia To: The Other Neville Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 18:21:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim and Neville, Neville, why do you keep calling yourself the ''Other Neville?'' You were here first and the Aussie Neville doesn't post here. Reclaim your name, Neville! :):) Jim: how the hell did you make it through that program? Were you rolling on the floor laughing? I couldn't take more than a click on to see who Larry had on (as usual) and passed right on by. Tom said, 'who's on Larry King?' and I said 'oh one of those beyond the grave guys.' Tom hates Larry King, but I like him. I couldn't figure out why King had the guy on. The Danson movie explains it. I hate those fucking 'other side' guys. They're so obvious. Plus they make money on folks who believe in them. SIcko stuff...

Subject: Reclaiming names From: The First Neville To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 19:40:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not only is there some Aussie doing dramatic things at Amaroo, but a UK football player called Neville is grabbing headlines because of a broken bone in his foot. Whichever direction I turn I'm being upstaged, dammit. Signed:...some Neville or another...

Subject: It gets even worse From: PatC To: The First Neville Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 04:13:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Neville Brothers www.nevilles.com/

Subject: So, What's Left? From: AV To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 13:32:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just been flipping thru' some posts I'd missed and something pretty obvious suddenly struck me; what's left? what is there to do for the pwk? you can't contact EV and get any sensible info, there's no video events, the last ones I attended were snoring contests; there aren't any communities as such, so there's no camaraderie or get togethers, no premie celebrations on a local level as in the past. So what is there to tell people? Do you need a script? If people go to see M, the first thing they'll do is follow it up with a visit to the net to get some background, and if they find EPO, to whom will they address their questions, and what answers will they receive? You can't bury the past , you can't undo history, even if you want to re-invent yourself, there isn't a carpet big enough to sweep the dirt under. So what is there? an experience....yes, certainly; but where does it take you, what is the endgame, to worship M? despite the revelations that have been made. I'll say it again; If you place someone above question, you place yourself beyond reason, and if reason cannot find you, what is the value of your realisation? So whats left?

Subject: A few scraps for the loyal table dogs.... From: la-ex To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 10:29:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John Miller once told me that he liked to think of himself as one of maharaji's house dogs. He told me that he and John Hmpton used to sleep on the floor at m's residence sometimes and fetch him certain things during the day....said it made him feel like m's dog, and he liked that feeling.... However, what's left? Actually, still a few goodies for Pay Pal Rawat and the dogs... He can do his events in India, and get the 'royal treatment' that he thinks he deserves, that he gets nowhere else....so he's got the 'Indian festival thing' for morale boosting twice a year...funny how he likes to put the Indians down so much, but loves their devotional hoopla and their refusal to call him on his shit, because he's still 'lord' over there.... Also, he's still got amaroo, which I think he will preserve at all costs, if you think about it.... -land where he can do his projects,and promise instructors retirement at, although I know of at least instructor who told him politely that amaroo was the LAST place on Earth he wanted to end up in his retirement... -still a cash cow, even if it does take about a milion per year to keep it up.....if he does 2 programs a year, and only gts 5,000 premies between the 2 programs, if he can make $1,000 bucks off each one through registration, rentals, food, darshan donations etc, that's 5 million he just pulled in....add to that, maybe 2 'special' meetings each year for the 'big donor' list, and that's maybe 500 people at $2,000 each, so there's another mllion, just for he upkeep... He's still got the gulfstream V, and he can always tell the big donors how essential it is, with all of the terrorism stuff thse days... You know he'll keep the jet... He's got his malibu mansion, probably all paid in cash by the book company... He says he could retire today if he wanted to, so you know he's got millions in some sort of hard to access account...... He can call 'quickie' programs, and premies will pay huge entrance fees that they don't questiion, because they seem him only a few times a year anyway... So, I think the maha has it just like he wants it, at least on the material plane... Premies will still fork over millions per year....amaroo is where you can 'really' play with the lord... Regular fixes are dished out on the dish, for those who cannot afford methadone treatments... He's distanced himself from the organization, and any possible laswsuits (he hopes), and has high priced lawyers to protect him if need be.... So, he's still got a few poor suckers for devotees....indian festivals and amaroo to play lord at...some cash coming in....a few toys... He's been roughed up, but there's still a few suckers with enough money to keep the game going on, at least for now.... Now if he could just get rid of that damn EPO site, supress speech a bit more, revise history, get rid of the wife, and dust off the old Krishna crown and flute that he can't play, maybe, just maybe, he coul bring back the good old days, kinda like the way some of these old 60's rock bands make a comeback tour.... Naah, too risky...as long as the money's flowing, and monica,good cigars and cognac is around, he's gonna keep on trying to bring that good old fashioned world peace to the thirsty....

Subject: Hey, La-Ex From: Gail To: la-ex Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 10:55:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How are you doing in all this? Are you still involved on the surface? Are there still a ton of premies in Malibu ready to do Prem's bidding? Have you been over to the rez to serve sandwiches lately? What's the general morale of the local yokels?

Subject: Sri Chinmoy, of course. From: New-Age Redneck To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 20:09:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh wait, I think he's dead..... well there has to be SOMEONE that can be my guru, right? What if we had a world and no guru came? :)

Subject: Re: So, What's Left? From: Gail To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 13:48:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From what I can gather, Prem Pal is strategically planning to tap a new market--WORLD LEADERS. He will always have a few people from the old days around that he feels somewhat obligated to. For the most part, he is hoping the masses will slowly disappear and people will get on with their lives without blaming him too much. It was touching to read Cat's suggestion that I talk to some people who went to Amaroo. He doesn't realize that I was barred from every being involved again back in December, 1998. The door is not open. Soon, only a few will be involved at all. Who will hang around for satelite feeds and camping trips with Maharaji once a year? The cult is leaving the the premies. The train has left the station. It's all so sad. I feel badly for everybody, and most of all myself. It's not at all like I imagined in the early 70s. I figured the millenium of peace would have started by now and we would perpetually be in nirvana. 'I pick you up and I let you go. I pick you up and I let you go. One day, I will pick you up and never let you go!' What about it, Prem. We are all still waiting.

Subject: Let me qualify From: Gail To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 22:18:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I no longer have any religious beliefs, but I miss the ideas at times. There is no god for me, no reincarnation, no heaven, no hell. I don't disbelieve either. I don't know. I read that it is healthier to believe in a superior power, but I can't make myself. I miss having this magical, unseen force orchestrating my life. I've got to do it all myself now. You know, take responsibility for my own life.

Subject: ''I miss the ideas at times'' From: PatC To: Gail Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 04:24:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, it's not easy being alone. When I was a little kid our village showed a movie every Saturday night in the town hall. They played the same music before the movie for donkeys' years. It was a big band LP (yes, I am dating myself - it was circa 1952) - all instrumental versions of forties ballads. One of the pieces is my favorite song of all time. Many years later I eventually heard the words to the tune - ''Someone to watch over me.'' I do miss that feeling. PS My second favorite song of all time is ''La vie en rose.'' :C)

Subject: Re: ''I miss the ideas at times'' From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 05:43:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Pat, Maybe someone does watch over us, who's to say that ain't true; I like to think so.....maybe something wonderful still is going on like we all felt...this could be a storm cloud. We pinned that feeling on M, maybe there's a change of script.... ps old songs...I love 'stranger in paradise'....

Subject: ''Strange-looking parasite'' From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 13:00:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Unfortunately I ruined that song in my crass youth. A friend and I used to see how we could changes the words of songs into something silly. I came up with: ''Hold my gland, I'm a strange-looking parasite.'' But the tune is still great. Well, if there is someone to watch over me, I feel sure he/she/it isn't petty and doesn't really mind if I ignore it and don't get my tits in a tangle about it. Anything smart enough to to create a universe isn't going to stand on ceremony or need to be worshipped or have dumb religions surrounding it. ''Love is a many splendid thing.... Two lovers kissed In the morning mist And the world stood still.'' I always wondered why Rawat did not get us to sing real love songs to him instead of ''Rock me Miragey.'' Now I know. He's not classy and his idea of love is cheap and tawdry. ''Some enchanted evening You may see a stranger. You may see a stranger Across a crowded room.....''

Subject: Evening, evening, evening, ...... From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 16:21:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .... evening, evening, evening, evening, evening, evening, evening, evening, ..... 'Someone chanted 'Evening'' I'll get my coat....

Subject: Re: Evening, evening, evening, ...... From: AV To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 16:25:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and I'll start the car.. 'I'm just sitting on a duck in the bay......whistle whistle' :@)

Subject: Re: ''Strange-looking parasite'' From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 14:36:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We did 'I'm a stranger with parrot's eyes', How about.. 'I threw a custard in her face'... still get chills from 'Laura' btw

Subject: ''Stranger with parrot's eyes'' From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 15:17:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, I'm a sucker for all those old love ballads. I'm off to work now. Have fun.

Subject: ps. old songs, Je ne regrette rien [nt] From: PatD To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 12:13:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I am not waiting for Prem Pay Pal... From: Cynthia To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 17:15:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gail and AV, Here's a poem by Lawrence Ferlinghetti which I discovered with I was seventeen. (I didn't read Seventeen Magazine) B) I Am Waiting I am waiting for my case to come up and I am waiting for a rebirth of wonder and I am waiting for someone to really discover America and wail and I am waiting for the discovery of a new symbolic western frontier and I am waiting for the American Eagle to really spread its wings and straighten up and fly right and I am waiting for the Age of Anxiety to drop dead and I am waiting for the war to be fought which will make the world safe for anarchy and I am waiting for the final withering away of all governments and I am perpetually awaiting a rebirth of wonder I am waiting for the Second Coming and I am waiting for a religious revival to sweep thru the state of Arizona and I am waiting for the Grapes of Wrath to be stored and I am waiting for them to prove that God is really American and I am seriously waiting for Billy Graham and Elvis Presley to exchange roles seriously and I am waiting to see God on television piped onto church altars if only they can find the right channel to tune in on and I am waiting for the Last Supper to be served again with a strange new appetizer and I am perpetually awaiting a rebirth of wonder I am waiting for my number to be called and I am waiting for the living end and I am waiting for dad to come home his pockets full of irradiated silver dollars and I am waiting for the atomic tests to end and I am waiting happily for things to get much worse before they improve and I am waiting for the Salvation Army to take over and I am waiting for the human crowd to wander off a cliff somewhere clutching its atomic umbrella and I am waiting for Ike to act and I am waiting for the meek to be blessed and inherit the earth without taxes and I am waiting for forests and animals to reclaim the earth as theirs and I am waiting for a way to be devised to destroy all nationalisms without killing anybody and I am waiting for linnets and planets to fall like rain and I am waiting for lovers and weepers to lie down together again in a new rebirth of wonder I am waiting for the Great Divide to be crossed and I am anxiously waiting for the secret of eternal life to be discovered by an obscure general practitioner and save me forever from certain death and I am waiting for life to begin and I am waiting for the storms of life, to be over and I am waiting to set sail for happiness and I am waiting for a reconstructed Mayflower to reach America with its picture story and tv rights sold in advance to the natives and I am waiting for the lost music to sound again in the Lost Continent in a new rebirth of wonder I am waiting for the day that maketh all things clear and I am waiting for Ole Man River to just stop rolling along past the country club and I am waiting for the deepest South to just stop Reconstructing itself in its own image and I am waiting for a sweet desegregated chariot to swing low and carry me back to Ole Virginie and I am waiting for Ole Virginie to discover just why Darkies are born and I am waiting for God to lookout from Lookout Mountain and see the Ode to the Confederate Dead as a real farce and I am awaiting retribution for what America did to Tom Sawyer and I am perpetually awaiting a rebirth of wonder I am waiting for Tom Swift to grow up and I am waiting for the American Boy to take off Beauty's clothes and get on top of her and I am waiting for Alice in Wonderland to retransmit to me her total dream of innocence and I am waiting for Childe Roland to come to the final darkest tower and I am waiting for Aphrodite to grow live arms at a final disarmament conference in a new rebirth of wonder I am waiting to get some intimations of immortality by recollecting my early childhood and I am waiting for the green mornings to come again youth's dumb green fields come back again and I am waiting for some strains of unpremeditated art to shake my typewriter and I am waiting to write the great indelible poem and I am waiting for the last long careless rapture and I am perpetually waiting for the fleeing lovers on the Grecian Urn to catch each other up at last and embrace and I am awaiting perpetually and forever a renaissance of wonder by Lawrence Ferlinghetti It was a favorite poem for many years....

Subject: Re: I am not waiting for Prem Pay Pal... From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 17:38:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cyn Jeez , that fucking beautiful, tears like that I don't mind crying I owe you , big time AV (x)

Subject: Well, good... From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 18:32:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV, It's a poem I've always loved. Ferlinghetti was born in 1917. Older than my Mom. When I bought his small book of poetry when a teen I was hooked. Good tears...are good tears... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Well, good... From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 18:49:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: check out an english poet, John Clare

Subject: Cult Leader From: Ebay Alert To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 09:56:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Couple of 'Who is Guru Maharaj ji' Books up for auction. One is titled 'Cult Leader Guru Maharaj ji' Hmmmm, how did they know it is a cult? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1532476127 Cult Guru cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1532476127

Subject: premie psychology From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 09:13:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Someone below was talking about premies being unable to come clean with psychotherapists, if they ever visit one. It's true. Suppose a premie suffers from a certain amount of disfunction in his/her life, becomes aware of it and decides to have therapy. They are going to find themselves unable to discuss the one thing that is central to their life. The therapist is then unable to develop a complete picture of the person. How could a premie who believes in Maharaji implicitly be able to dissect and analyse his/her relationship with Maharaji with a therapist, who most likely isn't a premie? Strangely, that same premie would probably have no trouble at all discussing the intimate details of their relationship with their partner (if they have one). But to discuss Maharaji with the therapist would feel like an admission of doubt, and a disloyalty to Maharaji, and their reluctance to do this must come from fear. Out of interest, has anyone here had this experience themselves? (I haven't, for the record, but do know people who have.) As a result of this taboo for a premie on telling the whole truth, the therapist will then be unable to understand the amount of worship/projection their client is capable of. This will result in the therapist not being able to help very much, and the disfunction will remain undiscovered and untreated. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: premie psychology From: Mercedes To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 13:14:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia you are spot on, premies do not discuss their relationship with the maja with their therapists it would be so helpful if they did, I know I did and finally I got out of the bloody cult.

Subject: Re: premie psychology From: Peg To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 06:15:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia I have just read this question. I got into therapy in the mid eighties. I never hid the fact that I was a premie, nor did I hide the fact of being in therapy from any premies, in fact there was a whole bunch of premies who did both and it didn't seem to be a problem.Of course there was disapproval from stricter premies. I remember one of my colleagues coming up with the analogy of 'rats under the floorboards' for the stuff knowledge didn't deal with but only transcended I think one of my reasons for entering therapy was the loss of magic and I embraced this new world with quite an evangelical fervour when it seemed to provide a magic of its own. I simply never presented my relationship with maharaji as a problem to be examined so it never was. As you have guessed I never gave away that I thought he was LOTU. I remember once, going to my therapist the morning after a programme, getting carried away and saying something like 'He loves me so much' and being shocked by my therapists response 'don't you mean you experience a lot of love and attribute it to him' I also was confronted again and again on the 'special' position I took which was very beneficial to me, especially when i finally came to ex. I think I could have left at this point were it not for the fact that all my closest friends were premies so it was too hard to contemplate. I became a therapist myself and would often have clients who were in some cult or group or had strong beliefs that they didn't want questioning. Sometimes they would want to look at them and then it would be made obvious. I think I probably had a blind spot here, looking back, and perhaps I missed some opportunities. I am pretty sure that my therapist knew where I was at without me articulating it but I was not giving her the deprogramming job and would probably have walked if she had tried to do it. A therapist only has as much power as we are prepared to give them (a bit like a guru in fact) Peg

Subject: Re: premie psychology nt From: Peg To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 06:14:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: premie psychology From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 10:47:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, You've brought up an interesting issue. I went to a couple of therapists at various times while I lived in Hartford (back in the 70s as a premie) and never told them of my involvement with Maharaji, especially that I believed him to be LOTU. I was embarrassed and afraid to mention it so I kept that information hidden. Very weird in retrospect. I was conscious of not telling. It was a decision I made mixed in with quite a lot of denial. The crux of the matter was that I was suffering. Yet I was still active in SS&M and loving Maharaji. Those two things caused great conflict inside of me. But I don't see how a therapist could have helped more if I told because their job isn't to deprogramme. Worshipping another human being as a god-in-a-bod would have put me in a different light (no pun) for these people. The relationship between client/therapist is difficult enough. I don't see how I could be helped because I had a tiny voice always telling me just to surrender to m. Interesting subject, Livia. In the late 70s Maharaji was heavily promoting ashram life and ridiculting the need for a love partner on the 'earthly plane.' That alone was confusing me but I had a caldron full of problems I didn't even know about at that time. Holding back information from psychotherapists is not uncommon for people. Lots of people for various reasons don't tell their therapists the 'whole picture' of their lives. A good therapist will spot those issues and work around them until the client is ready to deal. When a member of a cult holds back information about their beliefs and involvement I don't know how or what a therapist would do. They might not pick up on it at all; they might notice some 'cult speak' and suspect. My experience is that many shrinks of all shapes and kinds don't know much about cult dynamics anyway. Many therapists are into a lot of juju type stuff themselves, like Reiki, etc. When I finally found my last therapist who took me through ten years with my MPD stuff I had interviewed many, many, many, and that's alot:) of therapists who had too many issues, philosophies, and problems of their own. I rejected them. I remember literally fleeing from the office of a woman 'therapist' in the hills of Montpelier during a terrible snow storm because she kept insisting that 'touching was important for her in her sessions,' as she edged her chair closer and closer to me until our knees were touching. I told her to back off. She was a crazy woman. I literally ran out of her office and got stuck in the snow with my car, got unstuck then, drove away until I came out of my panic. Oh do I have therapist stories! There are some doozies out there. Anyway, thanks for bring up this subject. It's right up my alley. Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: premie psychology From: cq To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 10:31:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's a sad fact that any premie who took 'knowledge' in the 1970s and 80s (maybe even after?) has had to become proficient at one thing - lying. Lying to themselves, and lying about their 'Master'. How else could they ever hope to reconcile the diametrically opposed beliefs that Maharaji planted in their heads - originally that he was the 'superior power in person' i.e. God in human form, then the belief that he now fosters which states that he 'never claimed to be God'? If these people are to have any hope of coming to terms with who THEY really are (not to mention the kind of deal they've tied themselves into with their so-called 'Master') then surely they've got to face up to that fact one day. What fact? The fact that they are capable of lying to themselves. Not that I'm suggesting they need to give themselves a hard time simply because of that realisation (after all, the ability to deceive oneself seems to be an integral part of the human condition), but if they really are to progress and grow as real human beings, and not just some kind of cloned, cookie-cutter cult apologists, then one day they're going to have to deal with it. But how do you deal with fhe fact that you are respecting/following a man who once got you to believe he was the Lord? Then denies it. How can an honest person still trust him? Self-deception can become a habit that has devastating effects on a person's psyche. Once the canker has taken hold, then further self-deception is made even easier. The end result? An erosion of the self that no self-respecting aspirant (however innocent) could have had in mind when they signed up to the Maha's trip. As things stand these days, I don't see how any of the old premies can think of themselves as being true to themselves. They're just chameleons who adapt their identity to whatever role-model the Maha says is currently acceptable. I wonder, - what is it about that kind of psychological profile that needs someone else to tell them who they are and what they should be? (I'm sure it's not a profile that only premies match).

Subject: Re: premie psychology From: AV To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 10:52:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you said 'I wonder, - what is it about that kind of psychological profile that needs someone else to tell them who they are and what they should be?' First you have to believe that you are not who you thought you were (you are not your body/mind etc..) Once you've let that one in, you are pretty much putty ..... I think its easy to see how someone who is vulnerable and lacking in self esteem would be prepared to have the shit kicked out of their ego, and thus would be so susceptable to whatever was put in its' place. Although there may not be 'heavy satsang' for aspirants any longer, the whole thing of 'if you have any questions, just keep listening to the videos' is a subtle way (whether intended or not) of inducing a feeling of the individual being unqualified to voice an opinion or form sensible questions while 'coming to K'... its all about opening up, letting something in, letting down your guard, giving up your personal discrimination; and that means the in the context of the Master /disciple relationship,the Master has to have ; ((((THE PUREST MOTIVES AND INTENTIONS FOR THE HIGHEST GOOD OF YOUR SOUL ON IT'S JOURNEY TO COMPLETION, AND BE ABLE TO SAFEGUARD YOU, PERSONALLY THRU'OUT YOUR LIFE. ))) I believe most people I know thought that was the case when they found M. To recieve anything less is to walk into very dangerous territory.

Subject: Re: premie psychology From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 10:24:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Liv; re-premies with depression /dysfunction etc. from post below: And please don't say 'send people like that to a therapist'....what are they gonna say.?.... 'Well it all started when I found that God had reincarnated with more power than ever before....' 'Well, the entire focus of my life is just to be in that place within inside of me.....' And yes, I have had that experience myself, you feel like you are trying to water down M and K so that you don't sound completely absurd, 'cos if you were the living devotee of the living lord, how come you need a therapist (......Duuhhh..), so you feel you are betraying your Master. snake eating tail again...

Subject: Exactly, AV...! From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 10:55:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You put it in a nutshell, AV: And yes, I have had that experience myself, you feel like you are trying to water down M and K so that you don't sound completely absurd, 'cos if you were the living devotee of the living lord, how come you need a therapist (......Duuhhh..), so you feel you are betraying your Master. It's called denial but lying to oneself works. Your phrase above pins down the problem I had in the 70s. My solution was to join the ashram and bury myself deeper into the deception. Mind you, that did not take away suffering for any long period of time. I didn't realize he was a fake until much later on. Thanks, Cynthia

Subject: The psychology of religious groups From: The Other Neville To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 09:29:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think this kind of thing is common in religious groups. If the current regime is for everyone to walk around with happy smiles then any problems must be your own fault and people can't admit to having them. The Other Neville

Subject: Re: The psychology of religious groups From: Livia To: The Other Neville Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 11:37:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just thinking the other day that to read the posts of Mili, Cat and everybody else on LG, they must all be walking around in a constant state of unbridled happiness and gratitude. But then they wouldn't post there if they were going to admit to anything else, would they? At least in the 70's and 80's I remember some honest and open discussions with other premies about what we really felt some of the time. Maybe premies don't do that any more? I don't know - just surmising. Love, Liv

Subject: Re: The psychology of religious groups From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 12:43:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At least in the 70's and 80's I remember some honest and open discussions with other premies about what we really felt some of the time. Maybe premies don't do that any more? I don't know - just surmising There is an entanglement that current premies feel. They really are geniune in wanting to experience that love, that experience ... and really want to share that experience with others (premies)and do - hey we all did eh? Part of that love of sharing prompts them in not wanting to cause any, and I mean any form of doubt in their fellow lovers and this totally disallows them to express any form of doubt. It all becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy, no doubt, no negativity, no questions. The inner turmoil is hidden. However give them just a tiny, just a weensy opening where they feel comfortable in expressing their questions then out it all pours. In my process of exing I took pains not to 'preach' my new found realisations to other premies as I was painfully aware of the anguish this had caused me. However, I found, that once they understood where I was at and that I would not confront them but was very open to listening then some (not all) grabbed the opportunity with open arms. They felt on safe ground, they did not feel that they would prompt doubt in me - I had crossed that sea of maya (huh!). Interesting dynamics indeed - I think that increasingly the community of pwks will interact with the 'community' of exes. Yes there will be the Cat, Mili, Lou type sparring but this will be increasingly a fringe element. Many thanks indeed for this most thought provoking thread all. Love, Thorin

Subject: Re: The psychology of religious groups From: Cynthia To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 13:39:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, I don't have much personal contact with premies except a family member who is not willing to discuss it. S/he has read a lot of EPO and the Michael Dettmers pieces. Doesn't like the forum but knows I participate here. We came to K/M at the same time, etc... The reason for the reluctance of this person is because s/he's knows that opening the issue would be a big kettle of rotten fish to sort out and s/he's not ready to do that. Has admitted that much to me, by saying 'I'm not ready to look at this stuff yet.' I think it's honest and I accept that. So we agree to not discuss it although I will eek in a little something once in a while during conversations. Given the emotional repercussions that occur once the last drop has dripped I think that many premies hold back until they are ready within themselves to see the real truth about Maharaji. I think this is the case with those who were initiated during the 70s because of that heavy devotional period. Belief is relief sort of thing. Not to mention the heavy guilt trip Prem Pal laid out for everyone, ashram resident or not. Letting go of the belief system is hard. If there's a substantial break in time with contact with the cult (with all the revisions and changes) it is only a matter of time before the doubts overwhelm the beliefs and the exiting process begins. Often I forget that it's been two or three years since I exited. In the beginning it was awful. Some people just walk away. Those who are like my relative know there are deep issues to face and it's not fun. Maharaji has commited serial spiritual abuse and I think that's the big piece of this exiting process which causes so much pain, feelings of betrayal, and anger. It's just easier to ignore it. Eventually, it does creep up and bit one in the ass though. My personal experience was that I becamie very angry at M for betraying me personally. I really thought he knew me. It was a big fat lie.

Subject: Re: The psychology of religious groups From: Thorin To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 15:00:18 (EDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: And a big high to you Cynthia! I see I have much to learn. Agree that that this exing process has to come at a time that suits individuals, a time that makes sense given the depth of the imprinting, especially for those that went through the heavy devotional period you identify (I was an early 70's sucker). I am still pondering over those who simply walked away but did not get a clean exit. Perhaps it was me that required a clean exit, a proper understanding, whilst others can make the break without the 'droppings' remaining. Hmmmmm Love, Thorin

Subject: Re: The psychology of religious groups From: Cynthia To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 15:41:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, I wonder about those that just walk away. I don't think anyone can if they've invested their spiritual belief system into the god-in-a-bod thing without something popping up in their lives that doesn't make sense or causes confusion. Some premies didn't buy into the whole LOTU (I was naive, I thought everyone did:). The relative I mentioned above never got very involved in SS&M on an consistent level yet their belief was that M was Lord. Lila, darshan, seeing him--the whole package was there for this person. Thanks for your input... Cynthia

Subject: is a narcissist?(interesting link) From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 07:37:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here are the 9 criteria. Having 5 of these 9 'qualifies' you as a narcissist... Feels grandiose and self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions) Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply). Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations Is 'interpersonally exploitative', i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted. www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/index.html

Subject: An open and shut case, I'd say [nt] From: The Other Neville To: The Maharaji of Malibu Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 09:09:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: is a narcissist?(interesting link) From: Sorry, here's link To: The Maharaji of Malibu Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 07:41:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: imagine being happy about your daughter joining a cult Interesting site www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/index.html

Subject: Narcissism... From: Cynthia To: Sorry, here's link Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 11:00:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's a site I posted about a few months ago. It's quite interesting and fits Prem Pal to a T, IMO. Scroll down to read 'how to avoid the WRATH of a narcissist.' Best, Cynthia Narcissism www.healthyplace.com/communities/personality_disorders/narcissism/narcissism_defined.html

Subject: Re: is a narcissist?(interesting link) From: Thorin To: Sorry, here's link Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 08:00:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: MoM Thanks for that link - seems very comprehensive. Some time ago I posted the following: Prof. Roy Baumeister of Case Western Reserve Univ. in Ohio did a study of narcissism and came up with the following 'tests' - I'm an extraordinary person - I like to look at myself in the mirror - People should recognise my authority - I wish that someone would one day write my biography - I find it easy to manipulate people - I insist on getting the respect that I deserve - I like to start new fashions and fads - The world would be a better place if I ruled it - I'm more capable than other people. Also Baumeister, in the article, was quoted as saying: 'Narcissists make fairly unpleasant colleagues. They want everyone else to do the drudgery while they take the credit. They crave opportunities for self-enhancement.' 'They believe they are entitled to special treatment because they are God's gift to the world,' 'But these people will shine in times of crisis when they have an opportunity to show off. For example, they are good when a crucial presentation needs to be done.' 'These people make good first impressions. But that soon washes over when people realise that their charm is shallow and ostentatious.'

Subject: This is worth a new thread From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 06:56:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Down below, Gail wrote: ''Cat: Your claws are showing. Where did our peace and bliss and harmony go, eh? I hope you had a good weekend. I confess I have never been as high as I was at programs. I miss the feeling and the nostalga but not the price. You got to see me in pretty bad shape in Amaroo. Longterm involvement broke down my self-esteem in the group although I never would have stood for that treatment in the 'Real World.' I remained hysterical like that for the rest of the 'event.' NOT A GOOD FEELING!" Gail's piece of writing can be added to - what have been your bad experiences at Maha festivals or programs, whatever they're called? I've already told mine before, about the Orlando swamp festival where I was in Hell for seven days. I was baked throughout the day and forced to listen to an endless stream of initiators giving satsang and then every evening until late, my eardrums were assulted by Lord Maha's gibberish, sometimes being screamed at me and worse than this, the final evening; I thought that perhaps if I got closer to the physical presence of the Lord, I would be able to more fully appreciate him so on the final evening, I managed (by stealth) to get to the front, right behind the row of seated dignitories and sat totally confused and freaked out as the Lord once again blasted my eardrums with drivel until it finally ended, or so I hoped but that wasn't to be as he then came out dressed in full flowery string vest and Krishna crown and to the strains of an endless number of Rich Neal hits, the Lord proceeded to wobble about on stage for what seemed like eternity as all around me, premies went wild with delight, waving their arms in the air in true Maha fashion. My seven days of Hell had now reached a climax - I was now totally freaked out and the fat brilliance of the Lord in his flowery string vest was just too much for me at such a close proximity and I slunk away, like a miserable wretch from Hell, to the back of the crowd of ecstatic premies, to go into one of the mobile toilets and hide away in the darkness to have a cigarette. Yes it's true, I walked away from the Lord in all his glory and to make matters worse and to just about seal my fate as a wretch from the darkest depths, the following day Ira Woods gave satsang and said that he just couldn't imagine how anyone could have been present at the festival for the last seven days and not felt something. That was it! I had to leave that minute and even though there was more Mahaness to come, I rushed to Orlando airport and got the first plane to anywhere - anywhere far away from that Hell, far way from those grinning premies... So what's your story? Was it all bliss? Was I the only one?

Subject: Re: This is worth a new thread From: Suedoula To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 11:35:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's mine: While walking to a program in Philly (late 70s, early 80s?) I stepped onto a manhole cover that collapsed (being the naive person I was, I didn't threaten to sue the city) but the thing that struck me was that I was in the path of many other devotees and NO ONE stopped to help me. Ok -- one person did. The rest just watched me pull myself up, crying and filthy, embarrassed and frightened, off the ground. I can only suppose that they didn't want to stop for fear of not getting a good seat. So much for the CIty of Brotherly Love. Oh, and the treatment I got at the first aid area once I got to the hall, was condescending, to say the least. My next drip was at a Miami Holi event when I managaed to get as close to the stage and that huge gun as I possibly could. Once M climbed on the stage and started to spray , I was nearly lifted off my feet by a crowd of South American premies, none of whom spoke English. I could no longer see in front of me and I was so tightly packed in by the bodies of those premies behind and around me that I couldn't move of my own free will. I became claustrophobic and panic stricken. The force of the water was powerful and took my breath away. I could no longer see M for the bodies around me. It was horrible and frightening and luckily someone recognized my cries as ones of fear and not of bliss and extricated me from the crowd. I spent the rest of Holi on a cot and then wandered around WAY far back until I could find the group I came with and make it back to my hotel room. I have also thought with great sadness of making my way all the way to Rome and being too focused on M to realize the true greatness and beauty that surrounded me in that great city. Hope everyone is well, Susan

Subject: Festivals were hell... From: Cynthia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 11:29:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dave, I always had a huge knot in my stomach traveling to festivals. Once I would arrive I felt like a stranger in a strange land. The guilt would set in because I never wanted to do service at festivals because I was tired from travel. I'd wander around in a daze trying to get oriented in the crowds. Never liked crowds and still don't. So I'd sit and suffer through hours and hours and hours of satsang until I thought my head would explode. I never thought these things at the time. I thought there was something wrong with me. It was only at the end of programs that I'd feel a great sigh at getting out of there. I experienced these suffocating feelings during all programs and festivals. In a hall or out in the swamps. That's one of the many pleasures of being an ex-premie. I don't feel guilt about getting money together to attend any events nor do I feel anything about missing them. It's great to be free! Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: This is worth a new thread From: The Other Neville To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 09:05:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, you're not alone. Programs were hell. M's greatest achievement is conning people into thinking this painful nonsense is in any way fun: yet more large-scale suspension of critical faculties. The no-placard, non-Australian (and no broken metatarsal) Neville

Subject: Re: 1. David Smith From: Zelda To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 07:39:30 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: and his goat eyes. I saw him up close after he spoke as he was observing the premies going out the door. 2. Charanands goat eyes when I spoke to him. 3. The premies fawning like gopies in their modern clothes. 4. The undercurrent of understanding that this 'knowledge 'is free but of course one realises that ;donations; are the best /preferred way to show gratitude. 5. Margi looking like a heavy drinker after a long night. 6. Margi getting milage out of inane phrases that imply that everyone else on the planet is worshiping materialism or pursuing happiness in a misguided way. 7. Premies using the same inane logic as Margi . 8. Premies stunted emotional developement due to the fact that Margi has trained them not to feel anything besides 'gratitude' for him . 9 Premies stunted mental developement due to the fact that Margi has trained them not to think . This means they are unable to interact with people.. They can only mirror or reflect back and they try to pass that off as interaction. 10 Premies stunted spirtual developement due to the fact that they are in a state of seige - held in a no-mans land of mindless meditation and projection of superiority. z

Subject: And what about premies' sexuality? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 23:13:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, I guess there's a serious question there but I was just kidding. Just seeing some of the recent videos I have, there's no doubt that premies are easily as sexy as any other group of Happy Clappers. Certainly sexier than members of the pentacostal Church of Jesus Christ the Christ Jesus down the street. Well, there IS one girl that congregation .... Okay, how about table manners? Can premies have good table manners?

Subject: nobody have been laid here for decades, if ever From: aha To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 07:43:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: EVERYBODY I know in 'my' community is single and many were never married; most of the 10 remaining premies in the Detroit area never had serious relationships. All the few premies that got married are now divorced (Gery, Robyn, Kray, Jackie, Bill, George and Silvia)the rest? Well, they have only dreamed of sex; I'm almost sure they never got laid AT ALL. All consider maharaji the perfect lover. ROFL. The perfect blab.... I don't think there are many premies in touch with their sexuality, are there? According to premies we come to the world to find and love maharaji, ONLY. Doomed forever to love ONLY the blab....hmmmm.... I wonder how you ex-premies viewed sex when you were a premie.

Subject: table manners? table grade !!! From: sleeper 786 To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 07:35:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The premie sense of humour? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 17:32:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Between reading the extremely lame joking around that got the premies rolling in the aisles at Amaroo and the extremely lame jokes premies level at me and anyone else who tries to engage them in dialogue, on LG, here or anywhere, I have to wonder, was I that bad when I was in the cult? I mean, so many of us seem to have really nice, sharp humour in us. That's what keeps me coming here as much as anything else. There's just a lot of humour at times. But the premies? For the most part, they seem about as funny as eight year-olds cackling over fart jokes. My theory is that real humour is so irreverent, it arises when you allow yourself to really sit back and consider anything and everything this way or that. I mean, it's wonky. Life's wonky, at least when you're seeing the humour in it. But in order to do that you have to be pretty well free to go where the mind goes. Premies, as we know, can't risk that. Thus, they're left with the safe pablum Maharaji dishes out. And then, of course, their own tepid imitations like Roupell's 'wild and crazy guy' routine. Did he really call Maharaji 'bossy boots'? Oh my!!

Subject: another DISGUSTING post From: An observer To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 18:41:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean, so many of us seem to have really nice, sharp humour in us. That's what keeps me coming here as much as anything else. There's just a lot of humour at times. Oh no! It's not because you are obsessed with Maharaji. Did you ever hear about stand-up comedy. I'm sure there's a comedy club near your home. Get out much? But the premies? For the most part, they seem about as funny as eight year-olds cackling over fart jokes. Ha ha, the problem is you are the butt of the joke at LG and that's why you crying out for attention. Pooo jimmy, widdle jimmmy is being laughed at LG. The premies have a bad sense of humor to make fun of you, don't they widdle jimmy. My theory is that real humour is so irreverent, it arises when you allow yourself to really sit back and consider anything and everything this way or that. Yea! Meditation works the same way. I mean, it's wonky. Life's wonky, at least when you're seeing the humour in it. You're wonky but you're not funny. Explain that! But in order to do that you have to be pretty well free to go where the mind goes. As opposed to be pretty well free to go where the hair on your butt goes. This is unbeleivably lame. Premies, as we know, can't risk that. Thus, they're left with the safe pablum Maharaji dishes out. And then, of course, their own tepid imitations like Roupell's 'wild and crazy guy' routine. What planet did you come from? You never knew anyone funny when you were a premie? What a sad pathetic fool you are. No wonder no one with a sense of humor went anyone near you. And here is a sample of the ex-premie superior humor. Did he really call Maharaji 'bossy boots'? Oh my!! Oh, that was so funny. Oh my!! get it? get it? Oh my!! is the punchline. go with it. Now everybody, pretend that jim's post was hilarious. give it a standing ovation.

Subject: Re: another DISGUSTING post From: wonderfully irreverent mother To: An observer Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 21:28:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If I was Reverend Mother I would take you both over my knee and spank you! BUT I'm not, so I'll do otherwise and give you a quick lecture (read W.o.W). While you're busy rising to each other's bait and blowing your trumpets you make many off-sounding notes which are sweeping generalisations about groups of individuals. Please remember you do not speak for everyone - premie or ex. It is offensive when lighthearted wit spills over into sour sarcasm and then is stated as though they are sentiments shared by all. I don't know (throws hands up in air)... all this testosterone - son, you didn't get it from me - that's all I can say.

Subject: What in the heck is wrong with testosterone??? From: New-Age Redneck To: wonderfully irreverent mother Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 20:14:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look here missy..... without it YOU wouldn't be here, either. :) There wouldn't be any women, if there weren't men, ya know! he he he :)

Subject: Got any extra??? (nt) From: Gail To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 23:14:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: You miss my point From: Jim To: wonderfully irreverent mother Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 21:55:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First, why are you not posting under your regular name? What if we all did that? I don't know, is it really that complicated? If you've got something to say, you should be able to stand up and say it, I think. This wasn't a ransom note, was it? Slipping a robbery note to a bank teller? No one's going to come to your home and smother you with a pillow (well, at least I won't). So why hide? It just looks cowardly. Because it IS cowardly. Anyway, my whole point was indeed to generalize. That was what I was speculating about, the general impact cult membership has on humour. Lots of exceptions, I'm sure, but that was what I was talking about.

Subject: If you don't mind, you just proved my point! From: Jim To: An observer Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 20:58:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The 'jokes' about me on LG are simply flat. They're stupid. They're childish. There's no real humour in them. I can take a good joke but there just aren't any there. And THIS: But in order to do that you have to be pretty well free to go where the mind goes. As opposed to be pretty well free to go where the hair on your butt goes. This is unbeleivably lame. is just what I'm talking about! That's NOT funny at all, but it's trying to be. Yuck! Was it ever any better for you? Ever?

Subject: Re: another DISGUSTING post From: Livia To: An observer Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:20:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What venom there is in premies these days. You can't help but wonder.... Actually there was a lot of humour in premies - a long time ago. I had some fantastic times; can't deny it. But at some point along the line, things turned funny and the truly funny premies began to leave - in droves. Now premies' idea of humour is dirty jokes or laughing at the supposed ridiculousness of exes. Or the peculiar antics of people who haven't received Knowledge. Oh, that anyone could possibly find a richer life outside the premie mindset! One of the funniest premies I used to know now spends his time not being funny at all as his face goes all contorted when he tells me revisionist lies. All the light seems to have gone out of his eyes. You lot would be a lot more convincing if you dropped the contempt. Somehow, self-knowledge and contempt don't sit too comfortably together, know what I mean? Or maybe you don't. Livia

Subject: Yes but are they FUNNY? From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 20:48:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now premies' idea of humour is dirty jokes or laughing at the supposed ridiculousness of exes. Or the peculiar antics of people who haven't received Knowledge. Oh, that anyone could possibly find a richer life outside the premie mindset! i know THEY think they're funny but do YOU? ARE they? Like does someone know any good premie jokes? Maharaji tells jokes all the time. Once in a while he can be a bit funny but not as much as your average stand-up comedian and certainly not as much as a really good one. And what we're seeing now .... these guys are just so .... dull? Example -- think of those good parodies that Joe and others do from time to time. The characters like Andrea Erickson or Pauline Premie. EV, back before it became a non-entity. They're brilliant! But where are the funny premie parodies, even if they're about us? I can take a good joke, I'm sure we all can. But are there any?

Subject: Re: Yes but are they FUNNY? From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 07:48:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, No I don't think they're funny at all! I haven't seen a single premie post on LG or here that has made me feel like snorting with laughter or anything of the kind. I used to think some premies could be witty - some of the London people certainly were. Did you ever hear of someone called Malcolm Livingston? He was a cartoonist and a genuinely funny person. I don't know if he's still a premie. But most of the truly funny premies I knew seem to have drifted off. Their innate perception must have won out in the end, or something. The attempts at humour that I've seen over on LG are staggeringly inept; you're right - no one has attempted to (successfully) parody us or contribute in any way to the humour that appears on these forums. Some of the posts I've read from exes on the other hand has been humour of the highest order, and I really have found myself laughing out loud on occasion. Maybe there should be a section on EPO for 'best ex humour' - because some of it is memorable. If any premie from LG is reading this, head back to your drawing board or don't try and be funny - lame insults just don't cut it I'm afraid. Bests, Livia

Subject: Re: Yes but are they FUNNY? From: James To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 03:28:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, you dont understand the houmour. Its very simple if your an Australian or a kiwi. The jokes are helarious if you understand it. The jokes that you understand meen little to a person who doesnt understand what is ment. Its like, well it is an other language. James.

Subject: Dear little sir Jamesy pie From: PatC To: James Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 04:29:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AKA ''Quiet's mate,'' you do'nt speel much beter than you're mate, matey. I wasn't born yesterday.

Subject: Re: Dear little sir Jamesy pie From: James To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 04:33:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excuse me?

Subject: Re: Livia From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:41:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Liv, I remember some really hilarious times, pretty irreverent too, didn't seem to matter as long as your heart was in the right place. But recently my experiences of things that come out of premies mouths and when anything vaguely (and i'm talking VERY vague) ctitical or questioning is met with a most worrying and inappropriate response; Is there something weird happening out there or what? It is a great concern when people and friends I have known for most of the last 20 years start to come out with quite venomous stuff with hardly any provocation. Rather than goad pwks about cult stuff, it would be interesting to see if any have something generally positive to say about any topic not specifically related to M? sorry P / K; you know , life ,in general, aspirations, hopes / fears, likes dislikes, dreams, anything motivating or exciting. What's there when the banter stops....????? Much Love

Subject: OK, AV, I have to tell you From: Jim To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 20:40:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV, I've got this tiny, tiny, tiny pet peeve with you. So small I'm probably an idiot to mention it. But, well, here goes -- why do you always just adress a person in your subject lines? Okay, you don't do it all the time but ... well, it looks kind of funny or something. Like, what? That post is ONLY for Livia? No, I didn't think so. So why not just keep the same subject line or say something relevant in your own? Now, what'd I tell you? Petty or what? Just a suggestion. Funny thing the kinds of stuff that ends up bugging you. I never would have guessed this might have but obviously it does enough for me to say something. By the way, I dig everything you're saying here. :)

Subject: Re: OK, AV, I have to tell you From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 04:23:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I tend to address my postings to the person whose point(s) I am following on....that way , it's obviously part of the thread, but specific to the person who made the point....like a TV debate where people on a panel speak person to person, but in front of an audience. If I wish to address 'the audience', I start a new thread, make sense?? Good. I'm glad you enjoy some of my stuff, it isn't always easy..

Subject: Re: Livia From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 20:03:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV - we must be online simultaneously. Good point you just made. It's hard to know, actually. From what I can see, the 'drifting' premies seem to have one foot in each world. They are making a life for themselves outside Maharaji's world and pretty much believe in all the values that come with that. But they haven't resolved quite where the Maharaji thing fits in. They still go to see him and have a fairly good time - can even feel quite nostalgic and emotional as old memories are triggered. They feel much the same as they always did when they meditate - either a lot, a bit or nothing. They've put their faith in Maharaji into a compartment labelled 'deal with later'. The premies who are still devout are a different kettle of fish altogether. I've spent time with two of them in the last few weeks and found them very odd. I think they actually find their own life quite odd, because they've taken on Maharaji's world view, which makes it very difficult for them to fully engage with the world or with the culture around them. Because of this, they tend to do what they have to in order to make a living, but then quickly return to the safety of the company of premies, because that's the only place they feel safe and understood. They see everybody else as somewhat lost and deluded and themselves as the only ones who know the truth, but somehow the reality of the premie world doesn't quite bear this out, so they are left with an odd dissonance that they can't quite admit to themselves or share with anyone else either. It's not a good place to be at all. One of the ways they deal with it is to attack exes as a way of convincing themselves that they are, indeed, right in their belief. The stronger the venom, the stronger I suspect the covert self-doubt. The self-doubt is so repressed that they probably don't even consciously realise it's there. It's obvious to anyone looking at them, though. Anyone seen 'Passages'? Wow. Much love to AV and all Livia

Subject: AV From: An observer To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:58:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But recently my experiences of things that come out of premies mouths and when anything vaguely (and i'm talking VERY vague) ctitical or questioning is met with a most worrying and inappropriate response; Confronting someone is not a reason to say a premie is not capable of being funny. What kind of logic is that? Didn't you ever know a premie who was funny? Yes or No If yes, than is jim's theory is lame?

Subject: Re: observer From: AV To: An observer Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 05:02:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: observer, I rek'n the tone of your reply speaks volumes... I wasn't talking in a confrontational manner, just trying with some people to take a broader view, not dissing M at all....but there is, I regret to say, an ingrown toenail of belief that people who have not 'come to knowledge' are lost in a twilight zone where they have no vision of reality,nor are they able to grasp any experiencial wisdom that exists beyond the realm of thought. This stems from a very deep incision made by M to divide the world of 'Knowledge and Realisation' from the world of 'illusion'. So let me ask you a question before I answer yours; If a person, after being devoted to M for most of their post-teens adult life, who meditates regularly and attends events, finds 'the world' a generally hostile place where they cannot feel comfortable, who gets extremely upset over small matters, and generally does not feel capable of engaging in life, and probably couldn't spin a joke, even if money was on the table.... would you consider that to be someone that needed some assistance in 'balancing' their life, and not always reverting to a solitary, inward seeking comfort zone that in over 20 years has done NOTHING to improve their outlook???? If M is a master of perfection, of truth and love, and is (tho' I don't have a problem with this per se) EXTREMELY wealthy, would it not be nice to have a retreat, or skilled councillors, or just some loving support in the form of an understanding helpline, so see help for people with these long standing problems which I BELIEVE are a result of that line drawn in the sand between the world we live and and 'the world of M'? Now that may be thought provoking to a premie, but I wouldn't say it was confrontational, I am enquiring after a solution to a specific problem within a particular organisation, that of depression and dysfunctionality. It exists, believe me. So why should such questioning invoke a 'venemous' response? Why no helpful answers? And please don't say 'send people like that to a therapist'....what are they gonna say.?.... 'Well it all started when I found that God had reincarnated with more power than ever before....' 'Well, the entire focus of my life is just to be in that place within inside of me.....' Come on observer....OBSERVE....LOOK....how would you help? Or maybe you just want to enjoy your club; YOU CAN'T SIT IN A CASTLE AND PREACH PEACE Of course premies are capable of being funny, what Jim was referring to was the accounts of Ameroo, where a fawning version of humour, a parody based usually at the mocking of another person , or mimicking Ms own fondness for dirty jokes, seems prevalent around M and premie events in general. It's a structured humour based on being safe, good comedien(ne)s are not safe, they are dangerous and break new ground, because they offer a new thought, new perspective. They tear down idols. Jim's theory is not lame, he is actually being observant.... you, the observer, have not observed , but jumped in with both feet on both our backs, and made yourself look a little ridiculous in the process. If you want to redeem yourself, you can always tell us a joke, we LIKE laughter here you know!

Subject: Re: livia and AV From: all sewed up? To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 04:08:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you both have done summed up the premie mindset based on your limited contact with them, afraid of the big wide world (while you guys stride ahead and have become highly successful?) Afraid to hear any ctiricism of M or K ? - bullshit, that's all we hear from you people. telling the wolrd what premies think deep down like livia does constantly is a sure sign of someone doing what she hopes premies are doing - trying to desperately convincer herself that she's right. the oinly reason anyone would do that is if they are constantly re evaluating themselves ie: lost! she isn't right at all and doesn't seem at all happy - as for humour - where? cat Is mili dr cd and lou run rings around you gormless LG intruders

Subject: Re: livia and AV From: Livia To: all sewed up? Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 08:37:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Er, where is the criticism of Maharaji exactly? Haven't heard a single word of it coming from you guys. And I never heard a word of it from premies while I was involved with them, which was over a period of 20 years. The only premies I ever heard criticising him were people who were beginning to question the whole thing. They were then regarded as being 'completely in their minds'. A few years ago I was beginning to have some niggling questions about certain things. I tried to express them to premies who I felt might be open-minded enough to enter a discussion. No dice. There was an enormous reluctance to converse in any manner that might involve them having to be critical of him. I gave up, because I couldn't find anyone at all prepared to discuss. It was only when I found EPO that it turned out that there were indeed many, many people who had had the same questions as myself for years, but had been keeping quiet. Are you suggesting that we were all imagining the minefield of attempting to discuss things with premies? For the record, in the last few weeks I have tried to discuss things with several premies and have had the same reaction every time: anxiousness followed by spin of every type imaginable. If there's a group of premies around where you live, openly discussing all their various individual attitudes and opinions, great! I'm glad to hear it! Sounds healthy to me...where are they? Livia

Subject: Re: livia and AV From: VA To: all sewed up? Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 05:49:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: jeez, thansk four puting me strait, wot mussed I hav bin thinnking ?

Subject: Re: observer From: AV To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 08:07:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Still no joke observer? Oh well, just to get the ball rolling: Q. What do you get when you cross a Jehovas' Witness with a Punk??? A. Someone who knocks on your door, then tells YOU to piss off!!! ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho hohohoho...... now your turn.... ;-) ;-)

Subject: Crass Joke--read if you dare From: Prem Pal (your pen pal) To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 09:11:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A woman was concerned with the length of her labia, so she opted for surgery. She decides not to tell anyone due to the private nature of the procedure. Afterward, she receives three roses. 'Doctor,' she rants, 'I told you not to tell anyone!' 'I didn't,' he exclaimed! 'One rose was from me. One rose was from the nurses on your floor to cheer you up. The third one came from Bill the Burn victim. He told me to thank you for his new ears.'

Subject: Re: observer From: Thorin To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 09:11:36 (EDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: AV I always had you down as a serious sort of person. Now I am not so sure. That was hilarious. Thanks I remember when I first got Knowledge I had one of these Jehovas' Witness come to my door. After a couple of hours and lots of tea he was seriously confused about his beliefs. Gawd I tried - or did I mean trying! Also I managed not to purchase 'The Watchtower' Love, Thorin

Subject: Re: THORIN From: AV To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 10:17:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ta!!! We had some Mormon suits call unwittingly at the ashram one day....so we invited them in for tea and a full and frank discussion of the gospels, christian gnostics, the apocryphal texts, missing gospels of the Essenes, Cathars, you name it..... BOY WUZ THAT FUN...

Subject: Re: AV From: Livia To: An observer Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 20:11:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi observer. (Don't you have a name?) Anyway, as far as I see it, premies used to be as funny as the next person, and yes, there were once countless numbers of basically irreverent, witty and humourous premies around. But most of them have walked, because their very quality of irreverance enabled them to see that something was awfully wrong. What you think is humour in the current premie world is the in-jokes that go with being part of a group. Most groups that share a particular mindset tend to share a particular sort of humour, if you can call it humour in the truest sense. (I don't.) I've seen it in groups of New Age people and I've seen it in Christians too. And it's only funny to the people who belong to that particular group. If you think that's humour in the universal sense - well, I guess you're entitled to your view. Livia

Subject: Bossy Boots From: PatD To: An observer Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:06:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Out of the mouths etc. That was a good one.......

Subject: Re: Bossy Boots From: An observer To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:14:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, Could you please comment on the rest of my post. Didn't you ever know premies who are/were funny, or does this not-so-funny clown speak for you, too?

Subject: Re: Bossy Boots From: Gail To: An observer Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 22:58:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Observer: I've known lots of funny premies. One of the best was a guy by the name of Brian Sydall. That guy would have made a superb comedian instead of an ashram brother. People laughed and joked around a lot. We were young. We had the world by the balls. We knew the Lord of the Universe personally. We were the cat's meow! BUT there's not much to laugh about these days if you're stuck in the cult mind set where all natural intelligence has been strip-minded. In the old days, things happened spontaneously. Life is funny when you're living it for yourself. Nowadays, people watch their event at home. In fact, any reasons for staying in a cult/religion have been removed in Prem's group. It got a decade ago. I used to see friends from London, Ontario when I went to Miami. There were no swelling numbers around here (just a handful left). Scripted intros to present videos replaced even that menial task. I gave EPO the script that Padarthanon gave me. I laughed over that, you can be sure. He had us practise the whole thing several times each (no Oscar when we were done). No. Premies are funny anymore. The excitement is pretty much gone. Now there is the hope and dread of the NEXT TIME! The wait between fixes and the scripted lines and the emptiness from not having built an ordinary life that derives satisfaction from ordinary things. There is a fear of running in to ex-premies (folks who used to be your friends FOR REAL--NOT THE IMAGINARY MAN ON THE THRONE). Premies need magic and it's a scarce as charnamrit! WHOSE'S LAUGHING?

Subject: Hello Observer From: PatD To: An observer Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:27:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...we're separated by minutes only,but we're on opposite sides of the moon. You ever read Philip Pullman's 'His Dark Materials'. All the best to you anyway.

Subject: Re: another DISGUSTING post From: Cat To: An observer Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 18:59:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I read on LG where Pat said your sense of humour was really dry and none of the premies got it. Yeah ,so dry ,that the majority of those exposed walk away feeling like a salty crisp. You aren't dry Heller ,you are simply cruel. Pathetic and cruel. And a total hypocrite with a nose like a hoover...

Subject: What I said about Jim's wit on LG From: PatC To: Cat Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:37:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim said to Isabella: ''Well, yesterday was a bit weird, don't you think? Why, if I was the paranoid type I might have almost thought -- now, I know this is going to sound crazy but I DID say 'almost' -- that premies didn't want me talking to you here. Crazy, eh? Like I said, I know that's not really the case but, well, you have to admit the grace, or something just like it, was really shaking this place. I mean, LG was rockin'!'' I thought that was hilarious and posted to Jim: ''You are your own worst enemy, Jim,'' and continued: No one else except me and a handful of other exes understand your wit. It is too dry for pious premies whose acme of humor seems to be Maharaji's scatological and eschatological jokes. How are your haemorrhoids? My colon is fine. Life is great! --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- The last sentence of course refers to the dumb insults that get flung at Jim about haemorrhoids and the homophobic colon/anus insults that get thrown at me. These are meant to be jokes and often evoke hilarity among the premies on LG. Some of Rev Rawat's fart jokes are funnier but not much and your ''Surreal Gym'' joke below was definitely a groaner. :( Now, I'm off to work. Don't have too much fun behind my back.

Subject: Jim's a F**Kwit? From: Catweasel To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 20:56:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think you actually haven't woken up to what is happening. The people who post hereand at LG (in particular) have had enough. The humour is very tongue in cheek and ,well not as literal as the gringo's think. But if you or Heller think you have carte blanche on reality statements - think again - you may well be handed your torch and be banished from the island...

Subject: Cat, what the hell? From: Gail To: Catweasel Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 00:51:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat: Your claws are showing. Where did our peace and bliss and harmony go, eh? I hope you had a good weekend. I confess I have never been as high as I was at programs. I miss the feeling and the nostalga but not the price. You got to see me in pretty bad shape in Amaroo. Longterm involvement broke down my self-esteem in the group although I never would have stood for that treatment in the 'Real World.' I remained hysterical like that for the rest of the 'event.' NOT A GOOD FEELING! That was the final slap in the face for me. Why I left the cult: 1. The Daya's restaurant incident 2. vague answers regarding where the money was going 3. EVs failure to send me a tax receipt for $300 for the Toronto Office Supplies for a program (I was asked to buy them and submit a receipt for tax purposes--someone must have claimed it) 4. Videos being recalled by Prem 5. Scripts from Padarthanand to introduce videos 6. Lack of community 7. Maharaji telling us not to go out on the net (seemed fishy--he really did say that in Miami) 8. Hearing about this site and checking it out 9. Feeling depressed about this site (it felt like I crawled into a bucket that was spinning in circles at mach I when I checked in here 10. Hey! It isn't much better than it was, but I'm not living on a hope and a prayer!

Subject: what videos did he recalled? From: silvia To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 16:01:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: when was that? thanks

Subject: Re: what videos did he recalled? From: Gail To: silvia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 22:14:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He recalled two of them in April, 1998. They were participation videos from Australia if memory serves me correctly. Also, on that note, I was surprised by the amount of editing for videos (live vs. video).

Subject: I missed it: What's the Daya Restr. incident? /nt From: Carl To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 09:51:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yowza

Subject: You Can Get Anything You Want at Daya's From: Gail To: Carl Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 23:01:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Restaurant except respect ... 1998 - Amaroo I treated myself and four others (Susan D., Susan E, Lynn D. and Anne J.--in case someone wants to call me a liar) to a lunch at Daya's fine dining for $85 per plate. They were very short staffed and the service was terrible. I offered to do serve-us the next day. I worked from 11:00 to 16:15. The second event was starting at 17:00. This Spanish/Portugese? chef, who had just returned from DARSHAN, asked me to bring in all the trolleys (all the other slaves had sneaked away to eat in the back). I told him I had one table left and wouldn't have time for all that. I dragged in one of them for him and finished the table. A fellow slave labourer (British or Australian) suggested that I get two plates ready for us which I did. I didn't know it was against the rules (that's why this guy had me do it.) Apparently, the slaves were supposed to pay $5 for a plate of mac & cheese. I was leaving the restaurant with the plates of vegetables when the chef started shouting that I was a liar (for saying I was too busy to finish hauling in all eight trolley carts) and a thief (for stealing the food). I guess they were planning on reheating the vegetable, shrimp, lamb, and beef for the evening meal at $100 a pop--nothing is too fine for Daya's Fine Diners! Needless to say, I was floored. My preceeding bill of $425 and my five-hour gratis shift more than covered the two plates of veggies. Instead of smashing this man in the face, which is what he deserved, I started to cry and didn't stop for three days (I left Australia with two slits for eyes. I looked like I'd been to bury my daughter insteading of party with my Lord). About 100 people were in the back of Daya's watching the scene. I even had a counsellor chat with me and offer me an apple. Thanks to her even though I lost my appetite. I was very humiliated. DISGUSTING, EH?

Subject: GET LOST CREEP From: Marshall To: Gail Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 00:53:28 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: You are a worm Ropeull. So why don't you go shove a vintage guitar up your phony richboy, moronic, pretentious ass. You likened ex-premies to 'shyte on the bottom of your shoe' Remember dumbass? You got it backwards, but you were close. In the same sickening tirade you used the racial slur 'darkies' isn't that similar to niggers? What is a darkie? Aren't the Rawat's darkies? what the fuck was that all about? Maybe, for all you know, I'm dark skinned you racist jerk! Believe me no one wants your phony sympathy or your idiotic, maverick premie, advice either. Fuck off loser! And yes I AM speaking for the whole damn group, I dare to do that, can you believe it! You are beneath worthless, I feel sorry for your unfortunate daughter, but what can you do, huh?

Subject: oh it's you Marshole From: DR To: Marshall Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 01:26:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he he the poor lonely illiterate who nobody takes seriously but who 'speaks for all'. you wish. Keep screaming son, you'll get it all out one day Envy is the destroyer of the soul you silly fuck

Subject: yea, that's disgusting From: DR To: Gail Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 00:08:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You should have punched the fucker Gail, but I can understand the mindset that stopped you reacting 'appropriately' on that sickening occasion. For what it's worth, people became aware of these and other atrocities and thankfully, the Amaroo of today is a smarter, kinder place. But one has to still be on the lookout, we had some stupid jerks come to the info booth and 'ask' us questions (read, play endless mind games). I told one guy where to get off and then explained my actions to the team, basically that we had the right to get rid of aggressive time wasters as quick as poss. Thankfully, they agreed and I wasn't thown out for 'inappropriate behaviour' he he. I don't subscribe to the holy humble mindless subservience that we thought we should employ in the past to get an experience of something. I may not be as 'wild' as Jim says I try to be, but I behave at Amaroo just like I do at home - unfettered and untamed. I don't try to be a rebel, it is just my belief that M appreciates those who feel at home - wherever they are, including around him. I hope you grabbed a large bag of Pistachio nuts and a bottle of Louis Rhoderer as you left Dayas.

Subject: GET LOST CREEP for DR (nt) From: Oops To: DR Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 00:56:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: z

Subject: GO FUCK YOURSELF GUTLESS TROLL From: AND YOU CAN To: Oops Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 01:19:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PUT YOUR MITTS UP BIGMOUTH

Subject: DR's right Marshall From: observer To: AND YOU CAN Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 03:39:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: your instant home brewed hatred of him (because he comes from a 'different' background than you?) is all too obvious in your hate filled posts. If that isn't dogshit tell me what is. he is not half as pompous as the rest of his breed i can tell you. You never take any notice of what he says but attack on principle because you see yourself as inferior? it looks that way If you weren't so blinded by judgement you might actually read what he's written. It's obvious that 'darkies' means dark mindsets not dark skinned. and he didn't say us exes are all doggie do but the dark stuff is like dogshit and in your case he's is right on the button. You do NOT represent this forum, if you did we would all be in deep doggie crap. You know me but I choose to post this anon because you seem to be inclined to hold grudges towards people and not let go of them

Subject: Yeah, you're an ex alright. Sure you are :) From: Jim To: observer Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 13:48:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I say you're not. I say you're just another premie anonymouse trying to confuse people. And who's to say otherwise? You? HAHAHAHA!

Subject: The cultweasel thinks we were born yesterday From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 13:58:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My theory about why they think they can lie with impunity. If His Holeyness can get away with revisionist lies - so can they.

Subject: Are there other wild guys like you? From: Jim To: DR Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 00:32:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David, First, to answer your question (on LG), I don't practise nearly enough and I do this way too much. Good idea to bring one of my millions of guitars in here, put it on a stand by my computer and noodle at least while I'm sitting here. Second, I guess there must be all sorts of fiercely independent people in your cult now, huh? Sounds like independence is exactly what all those trainings and team-synchronization mind-fuck sessions are designed to foster, right? A bunch of rugged individualists who just happen to like to sit and listen to Maharaji say nothing. Hey, you don't happen to have an ear ring, do you? A tattoo? Too much!

Subject: yea plenty, and wilder From: DR To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 01:41:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No tattoo, earring or any jewelry. I even lost my cignet ring (complete with family crest) when I had my hair cut real short a few years back and used that fudge hair cream which made my ring slip off one day when I was applying it. Good you're getting one of your three guitars out - just sit it on your lap and strum away, it's great watching different posts bring out different styles of riff. Have you tried the modeling amps? I'm using a Johnson JT50 right now. Boy, it sure can cook up some tasty morsels. Since they installed 24bit processors the emulated sounds are indistinguishable from the old vintage amps. You're right about the team trainings et al - the net result of that was indeed a surge in the 'individual' and his or her unique experience - and the right to enjoy and express it the way they choose. Nothing wrong with good teamwork, but of course, there's always those jackasses who vie for senior positions and then abuse the system by formalising it to the point of nauseum (and the appropriate reactions to that.) Maharaji only says nothing to people who are already realised souls and have fulfilled the purpose of their life. We're not all as lucky as you Jimbo, show some compassion.

Subject: Re: yea plenty, and wilder From: AV To: DR Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 12:38:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: 'Maharaji only says nothing to people who are already realised souls and have fulfilled the purpose of their life.' Are you just rolloing out the same old same old, or do you accept that indoctrination? i.e that the individual has this 'soul' which has to be 'realised'.. and that the process by which this is accomplished is in fact, the entire purpose of one's life which may be fulfilled only in this way? and tell me, where did this idea come from? sounds like Hans Yog Prakash to me, do you really believe that? I am dead serious because if you do , it would be interesting to know what steps you have taken in your own life to achieve that, what has helped you on your way? do you feel you have a duty to help others to come to the same awareness as you, and if so, do you feel one has to make any form of personal sacrifice on an altruistic level to assist their own realisation and fulfilment, or is it 'everyman/woman for him/herself? Do you consider M to be the only teacher in the world that can assist the individual to reach the state of realisation, and from your contact with M, has he given any 'hints' as to what followers have achieved that state of being and fulfilled their lives? And on a personal note, do you use any of your own resources to help those not so endowed to get to events where they may be inspired on the path you endorse? Is that important or irrelavent IYO? Is this a good way to show compassion, or should compassion be free of motives aligned to your own beliefs? AV

Subject: Not quite sure I follow you there, Roupell From: Jim To: DR Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 11:59:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're right about the team trainings et al - the net result of that was indeed a surge in the 'individual' and his or her unique experience - and the right to enjoy and express it the way they choose. Well, I was being faceitious and you're pretending I wasn't, but that's fine. Tell me, though, how this works please. I thought that the whole thing about the team trainings was to learn to align one's will -- and voice -- with the team's. You know, to stifle dissent or at least its expression. Were MacGregor and the others who've described this process -- wherein team members are trained to say 'black is white' basically if that's the team consensus -- lying? Please explain because right now, as it stands, it kind of looks like you are.

Subject: Re: yea plenty, and wilder From: Livia To: DR Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 08:15:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: "a surge in the 'individual' and his or her unique experience - and the right to enjoy and express it the way they choose." What do you mean by that, exactly? The right to express one's unique experience to a potential aspirant, perhaps? I thought Maharaji's directive in that particular scenario is to refer them straight to a video of himself. Can you please explain? Livia

Subject: Well, I share Marshall's dislike of you, DR From: PatC To: DR Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 05:05:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You really are quite an unpleasantly phony person. You know as well as I do that there is no reason for you to be participating in a synchronized fashion on the ex forums but you are sooooooooo dedicated. Must be going on five years now - huh? Spin, disrupt, spin, lie, spin, play games. You've got a good Borg er team effort going there, chum, but it's as silly as Rev Prem's little scam. It's based on fear and superstition same as your little Pimple's trip. Is that BO I smell or primitive terror of damnation?

Subject: It's a Heller thing From: Cat To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 08:47:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I still feel just great.I didn't like Jim or his actinities BEFORE Amaroo and I still dont like him or his ways AFTER Amaroo. I think you might find it interesting to talk to a few of the people who went this time.

Subject: Gail, I want tell you ( not Jim :C)) that... From: PatC To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 03:58:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I really appreciate your posts lately. Thanks. You sound tough and cheerful, broadminded and free-thinking. I specially enjoyed: ''Premies need magic and it's a scarce as charnamrit!'' But your whole Bossy Boots post was great and this one too. My hat's off to you.

Subject: Thanks, buddy! (nt) From: Gail To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 23:04:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Move Jagdeo to Malibu? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:31:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's an article regarding Cardinal Law who's just one of the Catholic clergy under attack for essentially covering their own asses (no pun intended!) instead of protecting the kids. The parallel between him and Maharaji is just astounding. Maharaji, as we have every reason to beleive, despite his stonewalling and efforts to lie around the facts, did just what Law did in the emboldened section below. This is like the Twilight Zone:Report: Cardinal Law to take Vatican post BOSTON, Massachusetts (CNN) --Beleaguered Boston Cardinal Bernard Law is expected to be replaced by June and assigned to a new position at the Vatican, a Boston newspaper reported Friday. The Boston Herald quoted unnamed church officials saying Pope John Paul II would move the embattled archbishop to an undetermined post before a scheduled deposition of Law in a suit against the Boston archdiocese. Law has faced increasing public pressure to resign for his handling of alleged sex abuse cases involving priests in his archdiocese. In one case, he moved former priest John Geoghan -- now in prison for molesting an 11-year-old boy -- from parish to parish even though he knew of allegations Geoghan had abused children. Earlier this month, documents showed Law repeatedly transferred the Rev. Paul Shanley, another former Boston-area priest accused of sexually abusing 30 minors. Authorities say Shanley publicly endorsed sex between men and boys. In diary excerpts released this week, Shanley admits having venereal disease and helping young people use drugs. The excerpts were among documents turned over to attorneys representing people suing the church over sexual abuse allegations involving Shanley. 'Much of my life these last few years has been choosing not twixt good and evil, but the less of the two evils ... my God, I've even taught kids to shoot up properly,' Shanley writes. In another section, he says, 'One of the first things I do in a new city is to sign up at the local clinic for help with my VD.' (Full story) On Wednesday, at the close of a meeting between the pontiff, Law and other U.S. Roman Catholic leaders, the cardinals issued a statement saying they would seek to dismiss any 'notorious' priest found guilty of 'serial, predatory, sexual abuse of minors.' The statement did not endorse a 'zero-tolerance policy' -- in which no instance of molestation would be tolerated. Speaking at Rome's Fiumicino Airport on his way home to Boston, Law said he and the other cardinals helped draft the statement, but admitted he had not read the final version. He said he was 'particularly grateful for the [pope's] open talk' during the meeting. 'I thought it was excellent,' he said. 'Very good spirit, very frank, very open.' (Full story) Sex abuse is expected to be a top issue in June at the bishops' general meeting in Dallas, where specific proposals from the cardinals will be discussed. Eight cardinals are scheduled to gather in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Friday for a previously scheduled benefit dinner.

Subject: And check this out From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 14:39:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Priestly Sin, Cover-Up Powerful Cardinal in Vatican Accused of Sexual Abuse Cover-Up By Brian Ross April 26 — A trusted ally of Pope John Paul II has been accused of sexually abusing boys a half-century ago at an elite seminary for the Catholic Church. The alleged victims say the Vatican knew of the allegations against Father Marcial Maciel and chose not to pursue them. In fact, the pope has continued to praise 82-year-old Maciel, a Mexico native, as an effective leader of Catholic youth, despite detailed allegations sent to the Vatican four years ago saying the man was also a long-time pedophile. Maciel denies the charges and said the men made them up only after leaving the Legion of Christ. Maciel is the founder of the little-known but well-connected and well-financed Legion of Christ which has raised millions of dollars for the Church. Operating in the United States and 19 other countries, the Legion of Christ recruits boys as young as 10 years old to leave their families and follow a rigorous course of study to become priests. 'I think Father Maciel is one of the most powerful men in the Catholic Church today and also arguably the most mysterious,' said Jason Berry, author of Lead Us Not Into Temptation: Catholic Priests and the Sexual Abuse of Children. Hidden Abuse, 50 Years Ago Maciel is alleged to have molested some of the young men under his control, some 50 years ago, at the well-manicured seminary and headquarters of the Legion of Christ, a few miles from the Vatican. It is hidden behind high walls and a steel gate that warns of a watch dog inside. 'He pushed my hand onto his penis. And I didn't know anything about masturbation,' Juan Vaca, who was first abused when he was 11 years old, told ABCNEWS. 'And he says, 'You don't know how to do it. Let me show you.' And he gets my penis himself and starts to masturbate me. I was in shock.' Now 65 years old and a psychology professor at Mercy College in Dobbs Ferry, N.Y., Vaca, the former superior of the Legion of Christ in Orange, Conn., says he was one of some 30 boys abused by Macial during his studies at the Legion in Rome. Vaca also told ABCNEWS how he was instructed to bring other boys from their bedrooms to Maciel's room. Vaca said Macial had different boys visit his rooms on different nights. 'In some instances, two were together with him — myself and another one,' he said. Vaca said Maciel rewarded him with special privileges, such as a private meeting with Pope Pius XII, who served as pope from 1939 to 1958. Maciel always assured Vaca he was doing nothing wrong. When Vaca admitted concerns of committing a sin, Vaca said Macial absolved him from his sin 'in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.' He told him not to worry and to forget about it. But Vaca said he could not forget. Eight Men's Allegations Went Unanswered Vaca is not alone. He is one of eight former students, now all in their 60s, who have signed sworn affidavits submitted to the Vatican that they were abused by Maciel. When they were members of the Legion, the accusers were devout followers of Marciel. But for the last eight years, they have been trying to get the Vatican to listen or even acknowledge their detailed allegations of sexual abuse at the hands of Father Maciel. They say they have not heard a response from the Vatican. In 1997, they went public, telling their story to The Hartford Courant, a newspaper in Connecticut. Courant reporters Jerry Renner and Jason Berry, who wrote the story, repeated the allegations to the Vatican, yet received no response from the Vatican. However, later that year, the pope took a step that surprised them. Maciel was appointed to represent the pope at a meeting of Latin American bishops, which Renner and Berry took as a clear signal the Vatican had ignored the allegations. 'He's Untouchable' 'I would say he has the pope eating out of his hand. Who is going to touch him no matter what he does?' said J. Paul Lennon, a member of the Legion of Christ for 23 years, who has since left and has been helping those claiming to be victims. 'He's untouchable.' Lennon said Macial is a master of Vatican politics: 'He's worked with several popes, knows the inner workings, knows monsignors, knows cardinals, knows maybe the men who are really in power, knows that so well, so well.' Then, four years ago, some of the men tried a last ditch effort, taking the unusual step of filing a lawsuit in the Vatican's secretive court, seeking Macial's excommunication. Once again they laid out their evidence, but it was another futile effort — an effort the men say was blocked by one of the most powerful cardinals in the Vatican. The accusers say Vatican-based Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who heads the Vatican office to safeguard the faith and the morals of the church, quietly made the lawsuit go away and shelved it. There was no investigation and the accusers weren't asked a single question or asked for a statement. He was appointed by the pope to investigate the entire sex abuse scandal in the church in recent days. But when approached by ABCNEWS in Rome last week with questions of allegations against Maciel, Ratzinger became visibly upset and actually slapped this reporter's hand. 'Come to me when the moment is given,' Ratzinger told ABCNEWS, 'not yet.' 'Cardinal Ratzinger is sheltering Maciel, protecting him,' said Berry, who expressed concerns that no response was being given to the allegations against the man charged with sex abuse. 'These men knelt and kissed the ring of Cardinal Ratzinger when they filed the case in Rome. And a year-and-a-half later, he takes those accusations and aborts them, just stuffs them.' Maciel Denies Allegations As for Father Maciel, he would not agree to speak with ABCNEWS this week in Rome, although he issued an emphatic, written denial of the allegations, in which he strongly denied the allegations of what he called 'repulsive behavior.' He said the men made up these allegations only after leaving the Legion of Christ. Click here for his statement. 'He has many other things to do rather than appear on a news program,' said Father Tom Williams, who said he would serve as Macial's spokesman. He called the allegations 'patently false.' 'I know Father Maciel very well,' Williams told ABCNEWS. 'I've lived with him for 10 years.' Williams has never asked him about the allegations, but when the Courant ran the story in 1997, Legion spokesman released a statement denying the allegations. Williams said the men making the accusations against Macial can't be believed because they didn't raise the sexual abuse charges in the 1950s when Vatican investigators were looking into other matters relating to Maciel. According to Williams, the Vatican investigated Marciel on counts of mismanagement of funds, drug and substance abuse and drug trafficking. The Vatican pronounced Maciel innocent of those charges and reinstated him as superior general to the Legion. In addition, Williams noted, a ninth accuser retracted similar allegations, claiming he was pressured to lie by the other eight accusers. Those men stand by their story, now an open challenge to both the pope and Ratzinger, who just this week proclaimed there is no place for pedophiles in the church during the Vatican meetings with American cardinals. 'It does not inspire much faith,' said Berry.

Subject: Sex scandal and religion: horse and carriage? From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 14:49:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When you think about it, isn't it rather fitting that sex of all things would be the thing to rock the foundation of all these religions and cults (Sai Baba, Hara Krishna, Muktananda, Buddhists this and that, now the Catholic church and, of course, the Prem Rawat Foundation)? Sex is the ultimate pawn or sacrificial totem for religion. But it's also the ultimate real drive for people exploiting the world for what they can get out of it. However it's used, it's the big gambit. But now, as information flows more easily than ever, in these modern times of legal redress and all that, sex and religion are meeting head-on and religion's losing. I think I'm going to buy an early Madonna album.

Subject: Italy and Spain are the only two countries.. From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:08:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....in the west which currently do not have pedophilia cases pending against priests. They are of course the most Catholic of countries and they also tolerate clerical sodaticism as long as it is only with little boys. Every other European country as well as north America have cases pending. Law need not get his clerical tits in a tangle in Rome as priests fiddling with little boys is tolerated there. They've been doing it ever since Nero fiddled with little boys while Rome burnt.

Subject: O/T From: Hope To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 23:59:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A hockey coach child molester has just got a job in Spain as a Hockey Coach......Are they mad???

Subject: Are they mad??? From: PatC To: Hope Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 04:50:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A hockey coach child molester has just got a job in Spain as a Hockey Coach......Are they mad??? --- Maybe. Cultures of the Sodatic Zone such as Spain, Italy, Greece and the Middle East tolerate male on male pederasty. They may not be mad but they are definitely behind the times.

Subject: Re: Move Jagdeo to Malibu? From: Gail To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 17:09:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Vatican has no choice but to move Law (because he is so grateful and all) out of the country before the real Law charges him with CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE. What do you think, Jim? Who could believe that a sane person would knowingly transfer paedophiles John Geoghan and Paul Shanley from parish to parish. I confess I laughed when I read: a) Shanley publicly endorsed sex between men and boys b) Shanley's diary excerpts 'Much of my life these last few years has been choosing not twixt good and evil, but the less of the two evils c) teaching young people the art of shooting up and d) 'One of the first things I do in a new city is to sign up at the local clinic for help with my VD.'

Subject: What's THIS all about? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:08:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The laughter continued when Maharaji started speaking to an English woman, who was true to the stereotype having difficulty expressing what she wanted to say. He said that she wasn't English - that was a language - but British - and that everything was 'lovely'. A truly British sort of word, that kept on being repeated and repeated topeels of laughter. And it seemed tobe quickly adopted by people of all nations as they walked away from the campground in the lucid air of a brilliantly clear dusk. First, Maharaji's wrong about the use of the word 'english': Main Entry: 1En·glish Pronunciation: 'i[ng]-glish, 'i[ng]-lish Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Old English englisc, from Engle (plural) Angles Date: before 12th century : of, relating to, or characteristic of England , the English people, or the English language - En·glish·ness noun but what's new about that? He's wrong about half the stuff he talks about in the real world. But what's with this english people characteristically having difficulty expressing themselves? Funny, eh?

Subject: Re: What's THIS all about? From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:27:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's abject nonsense. So maybe our passports say British - that's because you can't get Welsh or Scottish passports. England is the piece of land south of Scotland and east of Wales and Ireland, and the people who were born there are at liberty to call themselves English, for the record. 'British' covers the British Isles. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: What's THIS all about? From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:19:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But what's with this english people characteristically having difficulty expressing themselves? Like, Milton, Keats, Shelley, etc etc

Subject: Re: What's THIS all about? From: Thorin To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 07:22:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV In that panthean of excellence you list you seem to have missed out people like Livia and AV :) Also T.S. Elliot warmly, Thorin

Subject: I don't think that From: Sir Dave To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 17:07:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: William Shakespeare had much difficulty expressing himself. Nor Churchill, Thatcher, Charles Dickens, Darwin... etc. They were all from England. However, this purile fascination with the word, ''Lovely''. I did wonder why premies on LG were all using it suddenly. The Prem Rawat fan club has become so ridiculous. I mean, there's no problem people sharing private jokes amongst themselves but to expect other people to see it as anything else other than a tiny cult of immature individuals... Well!

Subject: Re: I don't think From: Gail To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 17:29:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Sir David: Didn't English start in your country? one of the glutteral derivatives of German and well established after the Norman Conquest? I'm just a lowly commonwealth Cannuck, eh! Canadians have a generic accent which makes them easily understood by ESL persons, but the Brits ... sort of like Canadians and their hockey. When it come to the real thing (English) I take it from the horse's mouth, otherwise known as the Queen.

Subject: A brief history of English From: Sir Dave To: Gail Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 21:42:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: English is derived from the language the Angles and the Saxons brought over from Germany and the Netherlands - Anglo-Saxon. So it is Germanic but has had a lot of foreign influences thrown into it. The Romans left their Latin of which some was mixed into the AngloSaxon. There's a lot of French in English from the Norman Conquest, some Danish and Norwegan from the Vikings who came before the Normans and strangely enough, quite a bit of Spanish although that may be because of the Roman Latin that's mixed in. When the Anglo-Saxons invaded Britain as the Romans were hastily leaving in the 400s, the then English people fled to Wales and Ireland and some parts of Scotland and it is reckoned that the Welsh language is the closest language there is to the pre-AngloSaxon tongue that was spoken. So the original language spoken here around the time of Christ would have been closely related to Welsh and was Celtic, since the people living in England then were mostly Celts. The AngloSaxons brought their Germanic language which has been the base language spoken here ever since, although it has changed and been added to over the centuries.

Subject: Re: A brief history of English From: Blondie To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 17:45:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Given that propaganda ain't much liked on this Forum - lets not give over everything to the Anglo Saxon scholars of the last century, whose denigration of the Welsh and Gaelic languages had them prefering Swahili as a contributor to modern English than to admit any Welsh, Scots, Cornish or heaven forbid, Irish influence in the creation of the English language. The Queens English - well the House of Saxe Coburg Gotha - our ruling elite, does indeed have its own language - stultified and strangled, just like a certain image that the English have for the last 150 years promulgated as good emotional health; stiff upper lip and all that. All bollocks of course. Ask anyone in England these days, what makes them English you would mostly get a blank stare. And the writings of Keats and Shakespear - vomitory expositions of aristochratic soft handed gentlemen. To understand English as she is spoken by the natives, and for the best indication of the spirit in which Anglo Saxon, Ancient Welsh and Old Latin got mashed into a tongue that only has rules that are made to be broken, that pathalogically rips off any useful word from any other language, that changes the meaning of words without any good reason, or explanation (and allows very, very long sentances gasp!) read the poetry of John Cooper Clarke or listen to the lyrics of the Jam or Sex Pistols. Oh and the Celts of Eastern England, couldn't runaway to Wales or Ireland -there were people there already who would not have welcomed a trebling of their populations. Some of the post Roman Celts may have been wiped out, but most probably just fitted in with a new regime and a new set of fashions.

Subject: Why I have no respect for Dog From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 15:21:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In a long, ongoing discussion, where I was offering to send him a copy of Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker and he was either avoiding the issue or, when pressed, throwing up Alan Watts' version of the hindu creation myth, he finally posted this answer to my offer: Alan Watts was making a distinction between different types of people. A useful distinction IMO. No, I don't need another theory on how we evolved into human beings. I have enough theories. Unless, of course, you promise me that this theory will: - help me relax and feel better, - improve my health, - help me deal with the day to day stresses of life, and - help with the car payments. What Dog left off his list is 'better understanding who we are and how we got here' I think that should go somewhere between helth and car payments. :) No, Dog is most certainly afraid of KNOWLEDGE -- real knowledge and I can't respect that, especially from someone who feels entitled to offer us his own unsolicited sermons as he himself calls them. Frankly, that looks merely cowardly to me. Dog, just my personal wish, of course, but I do wish that you'd get lost from here. Everyone else that posts regularly is either a current cult member, and we know about them, or an ex who, unlike you, really does want to understand life better. You don't and thus are just a major irritant -- to me anyway.

Subject: Re: Why I have no respect for Dog From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 08:20:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I must say it does look as if Dog would rather not read the book. When he says he's already got enough theories it sounds more as if he's decided how he wants to see it and he doesn't want to budge from that. It's his pregogative to see the world in whatever way he wants, but if he wants to come on and argue with atheists, then he has to be prepared to defend his arguments. It's no good just saying 'it's a feeling' or 'I just know' or 'because I feel it then it's true' or 'the Buddhist books say so'. We all did that for years and it won't do. After all, Sai Baba devotees 'just know' as do the followers of Sun Myung Moon and all the rest. And born-again Christians. And the followers of every religion and belief sytem. We had a serial killer in England named the Yorkshire Ripper who killed prostitutes because 'God told him to'. Dog, if you're reading this, you can only know for certain that you have experiences that are out of the ordinary (if you do), and that make you feel good (if they do). But you can't know for certain what those experiences are, or what they mean (if anything). You can have your private theories that tie up with things you've read, but if you put them into print, people will argue with you, because there's always the possibility that your theories are wrong. And anyway, have you forgotten the old truism 'the more you know the less you know'? or 'he who thinks he knows, knows nothing'? It's just concepts, more concepts, and yet more concepts. Over on LG someone said to me 'it's an EXPERIENCE, it's a FEELING' (as if I were a complete idiot). Of course I know it's all that, and I've been there and all the rest of it. But it's in the interpretation of the feeling and the experience that the trouble starts. Dog has a theory of the universe and doesn't want it shaken. Love, Livia

Subject: That's the way things are, Jim From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 01:09:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I currently have a job that involves reading the internet and it hit me the other day how many irrational beliefs people hold. It's quite staggering. I want to shout at everyone 'Have you actually thought about what you believe?', but there are too many to shout at. But maybe it's worth shouting at Dog. John.

Subject: Yeah, I know what you mean From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 14:36:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Last night had a few friends over and someone starts getting into the 'Hunt the Boeing' hoax. I couldn't find the attached link which I'd seen before, the site where two guys just give a well-deserved bum's rush to this bullshit, so I was left listening to these guys go off on this stuff -- and I did, at time, wonder what this world was coming to. Oh yeah. No, it probably isn't worthwhile yelling at Dog but as long as he keeps showing up where I do -- namely here -- and sermonizes his stupid spiritual stuff, I'll keep reminding him that he was too cowardly to even peak at the scientific explanation for things. Why? Don't know. Maybe it just pleases me to do so. Maybe it's like automatic, kind of. Human nature? Debunking the Flight 77 hoax paulboutin.weblogger.com/2002/03/14

Subject: You are DISGUSTING man From: An observer To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 18:19:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do I have this right? This person doesn't want a book that will tell them there is no such thing as the heart, soul, or conscience is now forced to leave the forum. What do the rest of you people think about this post?

Subject: FA I think this thread should be deleted [nt] From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:36:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why should anyone start a new thread with a personal grudge ? If jim doesnt want to talk to Dep... then he can ignore him.. isnt it better to argue in response to a post or somewhere else ?

Subject: Not a ''grudge.'' Jim knows Dog well. From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 18:58:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf, I talk the same way to SFJim on Life is Great because I know him well in real life. One can be more confrontational with someone you know well. It's not quite the same as some anonymous troll taking personal digs. But I'm staying out of their argument because I don't know Dog - although god knows I have tried. :C)

Subject: Re: Not a ''grudge.'' Jim told Dog to leave From: An observer To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:27:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is not a grudge? He also said he resents him. That is a hateful and psychotic thing to say to someone who refuses to become just like him. Open your eyes.

Subject: Thanks, An Observer. I agree! [nt] From: Dep =) To: An observer Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 00:40:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: So that was 'psychotic', Dog? From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 16:00:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is what you agree with?: This is not a grudge? He also said he resents him. That is a hateful and psychotic thing to say to someone who refuses to become just like him. Open your eyes. Anyone who pontificates about human nature on the basis of every spiritual cliche in the world but who, at the same time, refuses to learn anything about the scientific explanation for human nature, is a measly coward, if you ask me. No, it's not personal. I'd say that about anyone like you. If that's psychotic, sign me up.

Subject: I resent that From: Jim To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:50:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I completely resent your minimizing my conflict with Dep to the level of a 'personal grudge'. How insulting.

Subject: I think this thread should be deleted [nt] From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:31:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Why? [nt] From: Jim To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:32:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Cos its of no interest to me ! [nt] From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:37:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Then don't read it! From: Jim To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:45:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Too Late ! [nt] From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 02:51:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Too bad! [nt] From: Jim To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 15:49:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Jim Why Do you always put Shit........ From: Sir Real Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 15:26:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On People that dont agree with you?

Subject: Quit using my name -- FA? From: Jim To: Sir Real Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 15:59:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Screw off. FA, is there any way of telling who this is?

Subject: Re: Quit using my name -- FA? From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:36:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''FA, is there any way of telling who this is?'' Not really. Hey anonymouse using Jim's handle, pick another handle and stick to it or else your posts will be treated as spam - ie deleted.

Subject: Re: Quit using my name -- FA? From: James is my real name To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 17:05:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But the majority of people call me Jim. Is James OK here?

Subject: Why don't I believe you? From: Jim To: James is my real name Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 11:20:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But the majority of people call me Jim. Is James OK here? --- Why do I have this niggling feeling that you're just trying to confuse people re who's posting? Could it be that that's exactly what you started doing, using my name in a very dull, premie-dull to be exact, way of trying to parody me? And now you're saying that Jim just happens to be your name too? You couln't possibly be a liar, could you?

Subject: Hi James. Yes James is fine From: PatC To: James is my real name Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 18:44:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Using your other handle ''Sir Real Jim'' causes unnecessary confusion. Thanks and welcome.

Subject: How about Surreal Gym? From: Cat To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:02:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I loved that play on words!

Subject: thank you PatC ! From: James To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 18:57:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Kissinger From: Bolly Shri To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:04:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've decided, when Kissinger gets K and voluntarily presents himself to the human rights court in the Hague I'll go back to being a full time right on sister in prems lila. Oh, just realised he's not into that Indian nonsense any more shame.

Subject: Our Prime Minister Saw the Lard From: Gail To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 17:41:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep! Pierre Elliot Trudeau went to see him in Montreal. I saw him there twice, myself, and I heard he was there on another occasion! This was right after he lost his last election to the American rat, Brian Mulrooney!

Subject: pierre ellliot used to be a pothead too From: sleeper 786 To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 07:50:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Leno on Robert Blake (OT) From: Dep To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:06:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ask Jay Leno if Robert Blake is guilty of murdering his wife and he answers enthusiastically: 'Of course, he's guilty. Pull-ease! This is L.A.' Whether Blake will be convicted is another matter. 'They have the murder weapon, the motive, 900 pieces of evidence, 37,000 pages of documents and two witnesses,' said Leno. 'But, hey, this is L.A. You're going to need a lot more than that to convince a jury.'

Subject: I'll be right there with you, B. Shri (nt) From: Gregg To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:44:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: n

Subject: A thoroughly modern PWK in Amaroo From: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 04:20:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David Roupell said on Life is Great premie forum: You pretty much said it all, that's exactly how it was for me and everyone else I know. The most hassle free, easy going, casual intimate, profound event yet at the rock. One of the pointers for me was seeing Cath and George (Amaroo CEOs) a couple of days before the event. They were really blissed out, things were loking good, this meant that all arrangements and organisation was running nice and easy. So it was indeed (I was in the busy information booth every day, no dramas.) I met bossy boots the day before the event and had a thrilling time. I am known for being blunt with him (hey, if you can't be real with him who can you be real with?) and this was no exception. While I was looking at him chatting away in his car I tried to recall some of the hideous things that ex-premies have said about him and ...well, I just burst out laughing. It was like holding a match up in front of a huge bush bonfire, hilarious!! He said 'Oh, I'm that funny this morning am I ? he he' 'No no', I said giggling, 'I was just thinking about what absolute shyte some people say about you!' Everyone cracked up. He laughed, then looked at me in the eye with one of those serious, sincere, slightly sad resigned looks and said... 'They always have - and they always will.' From then on until now I haven't given those daft darkies a second's thought. They'll always be around, like dogshit on your shoe. There was an added scenario that was a blast this time. My 20 year old daughter flew up to Brisbane, received Knowledge on 17th, celebrated her 21st on Saturday and met Maharaji on the Sunday. He chose her first name in 1981 so it was special for her to meet him as an adult. Some of these younger generation 20 somethings are a new batch off the lot, they are so focussed and one pointed towards love and truth, I don't think they know much at all about 'doubt and fear'. Why should they when they've been brought up by people who don't either?!! 7.30 one morning we did the bush walk up to the ridge between the two rocks with 150 people from all over the world, what a gas that was. Everybody chatted like old friends and it was really funny at times. On the last night we had a late night party in the Pavilion and Padarthanand shared some wonderful memories of Aussie old days with the new prems there, Lindsay F, Deni and some others sang fantastic songs, we drank, hugged and made very merry with a bunch of other partygoers. A great ending to another magical, timeless experience of being with the guy who has worked harder than any of us to make it all happen. Cheers Maharaji, I'll be speaking to you again in Sept. I replied: I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post, David. I think it's the most sincere thing you have ever written. Thank you. I got a real glimpse into what took place in Amaroo. I know it was beautiful for you and I honestly don't begrudge you that. Now, I'm going to say something to you that is not PC among exes. I have come to the conclusion that you (and the other premies whom I know personally) have exactly what you always wanted and that it makes you happy. It is good that us disgruntled premies have left and that you now have him to yourselves. The thing is that Rev Rawat's trip should always have been as small and intimate as your recent gathering. The tradition in Hinduism is for the guru to have only a small following so that he can give you all the personal attention needed from a teacher to a student. What is the use of a living master if you can't play with him? The problem is that he did stretch himself a bit thin for nearly thirty years by doing his messianic trip - bigger than Krishna, Jesus and Buddha all rolled into one - you know bringing peace to the WHOLE WORLD etc and some of us (who were never meant to be caught up in a guru cult) got sucked in by the hype. This is what our beef is. Well, we all dropped out and now you have your living master to yourselves and you are welcome to it. Seriously. I don't see you or him as evil or a threat. I don't want revenge on Rev Rawat. I don't hate him or you. I'm just glad that I finally figured out that I was not supposed to be involved with him. But I still feel like making a cheap joke at your expense just to get back at you for being Cerise. You said: ''From then on until now I haven't given those daft darkies (ex-premies) a second's thought. They'll always be around, like dogshit on your shoe.'' Good for you, David, and you really don't have to give any more thought to us ''darkies.'' If you don't like what the ex-premies have to offer - just walk . ;) PS I'm going to re-post your report from the trenches (and my reply) on F7 as I feel that it really is good and very precisely conveys the intimate experience you recently had with Prem. I'm hoping that it will bring exes up to date on the current premie scene. I know you'll get flamed but take it from whence it comes. :C) PPS Some of us seldom get dog-shit on our shoes. We're too conscious/aware/alert/observant. Or maybe it's because I always carry a pooper-scooper as I've got so many dogs. :)

Subject: 'Club Prem' is the BEST! :) (nt) From: Andrea Eriksonn To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:37:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Word from the Bottom of the Shoe From: Gregg To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:02:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, PatC, you've got a point. The PWK's are having a good time, and I don't begrudge them their fun. Maharaji isn't the worst of the cult leaders. He's not one of those guys who're going to lead his followers to mass suicide. Despite being psychologically crippled by his bizarre upbringing, he's not psychopathic. Sociopathic, maybe. The reports from Amaroo were pleasant enough. It kind of reminds me of what folks say about their born-again experiences in Christian groups. The knowing glances, the smugness that comes with knowing your group is saved by a special knowledge, the comfortable security, the smooth syrupy air of spiritual/trance states etc. I know this sounds elitist, but I only wish the PWK's could entertain the possibility that if they would only risk a little more they could really open themselves up to bigger experiences. So much growth can occur when one moves out of one's comfort zone. So, yeah, it must sound like sour grapes and elitist dogshit from the perspective of the PWK's. But in truth, a lot of what we say here is well-intentioned. We used to be premies and have benefitted from stepping out of the coziness of the club into the universe at large...and we'd like to encourage others to do the same. Not to follow us into another exclusive club, because we've all gone into different directions, spiritual, scientific...But freedom is freedom, and being in thrall to Prem Pal Rawat just seems a little limiting to those of us who have moved on.

Subject: more new terminology! From: Livia To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 10:56:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Lots more new terminology to switch over to instantly! Out - programme In - event Out - darshan line In - greeting line Out - Maharaji In - Prem (but that one's old hat now) And that's just in the last few days! Sheesh! Love, Livia

Subject: Rock Campground for overgrown campers From: Gail To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:29:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: [This was the Rock's] most hassle free ....event yet. I met bossy boots before the event and had a thrilling time. I am known for being blunt with him (if you can't be real with him who can you be real with?) BLUNT????? Bossie boots is understated--how about tyrannical dictator with a captive audience who believes he's the Lord! This is real? I [observed] him chatting away . . . and tried to recall some of the hideous things ex-premies have said about him ... I was just thinking about what absolute shyte some people say about you!' Everyone cracked up. Ya, right! Premies only think about their doubts--they don't say them. Prem [gave a] serious, sincere, slightly sad, resigned look and said... 'They always have [criticized me]- and they always will.' Gee, I wonder why? Maybe it's because his LORDSHIP is a fraud. Maybe it's because he fleeced us for tons of money and 2.5-3 decades of our lifetime. We did the bush walk 150 people from all over the world. What a gas that was. Everybody chatted like old friends and it was really funny at times. This is exciting? He's from the ROCK--or under it! Maybe David's mother wouldn't let him go on organized camping trips as a youngster so he has to do it now as a senior! We had a late-night party in the Pavilion and Padarthanand [talked about the good ol' days] and we [drank, hugged and made merry]. This is because the new days suck! The throng was electric back then. It'hard to muster up the same exuberance after 30 years of lies, revisions and nothingness! Nowadays, drinks are required to elevate the mood--SSMD just don't cut the mustard with Prem's new partygoers! And, lest we forget ... Another magical, timeless experience of being with the guy [Creator] who has worked harder than any of us to make it all happen. 'Not a leaf moves ...' and 'Only Goomraji makes thingS happen.' Magic alright! The only magic going on at Rock Campground for Overgrown Campers is: SEE YOUR DOLLAR? NOW YOU DON'T! SEE YOUR DOLLAR? NOW YOU DON'T!--Watch for snakes and eat the pasta, bow and scrape, it's the MASTA...

Subject: Re: more new terminology! From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 12:11:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Out - Satguru, Guru, Lord, Maharaji In - Bossy Boots Out - Divine Light Mission, Divine United Organization, Élan Vital In - The Prem Rawat Foundation Out - Company of truth, Satsang In - Dish Network broadcast

Subject: Prem love their WARDEN [nt] From: Of course, Prisoners of To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 10:40:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: A throughly evolved cultist From: Tonette To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:29:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There are several aspects of your excellent post that I would like to add my two cents on. However, I unfortunatly have time only for a quick reply. I just don't believe that this father, this David Roupell, would indoctrinate his daughter into the confines of M's cult. Appalling! What I am referring to is this: 'There was an added scenario that was a blast this time. My 20 year old daughter flew up to Brisbane, received Knowledge on 17th, celebrated her 21st on Saturday and met Maharaji on the Sunday. He chose her first name in 1981 so it was special for her to meet him as an adult. Some of these younger generation 20 somethings are a new batch off the lot, they are so focussed and one pointed towards love and truth, I don't think they know much at all about 'doubt and fear'. Why should they when they've been brought up by people who don't either?!!' What especially caught my eye was the referance to his own daughter as 'the new batch off the lot.' Despicable, revolting, dispiteous, disrespectful, repugnant referance to his own flesh and blood. And he obviously is as happy as a 'pig in shit' that his daughter has bought for now, committed to, a life of servitude to the worst sort of con, an unkind man, a charlatan. I wonder what her name is? Satganga or Sunita? Did she ever have a chance to make up her own mind since she was brought up in a home focused on one thing as the be-all to her very life. KNOWLEDGE. No doubt allowed, no siree, by Roupell's account. This is the way it is kid. It's true because well, you'll see one day when you get knowledge yourself. I wonder if there was a picture of M hanging over her crib as an infant? Family vacations probably consisted of travelling to events. And mention of her mother is curiously absent. She didn't have a chance. Join or forever never know the most important aspect of your own father. Good grief, I think I'll go vomit now. Tonette

Subject: Have you finished vomiting yet? From: DR To: Tonette Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 01:13:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree, you definitely have some kind of a sickness. Your posts all reek of it. 1/ The new 'batch off the lot' is a general reference to today's 20 something generation, not the new people who receive K. I have many friends with children the same age, my observation has nothing to do with M or K. If you lived in the real world you would also have observed that today's 20 somethings are way way smarter and sharper and less full of doubt and fear than we were at that age. Open up. 2/ None of my three daughters were ever told to go to satsang or receive K. She rang me two weeks before the event and told me what she'd been doing and what she planned to do. It was the most delightful surprise for me (and her equally delighted and encouraging mother). Neither of us have ever laid a trip on any of the kids and they really appreciate that. The other two dig Maharaji but don't go to events or have K. Figure it out. Boy - does that dogshit stink...!

Subject: Ah yes, Satgqanga or Sunita... From: Jim S. To: Tonette Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 10:20:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tonette- I think it was our community coordinator in DC who's daughter was given the 'Sunita' name...and I remember hearing m say at a program that he had just named some poor suckers daughter 'Satganga'....I remember thinking at the time that this really was a cult, and a pretty stupid, lame one at that... It's amazing to hear the 'cat' talk about kids growing up in families that don't have fear or doubt....most premies I know have incredible fear about leaving the guru, and incredible doubts about themselves and their own abilities....10-12 years in he ashram has left some of these people with serious psychological problems that they are afraid to face.....the 'revisionist history' is amazing.... Pat C's comment is right on....the tiny personaity cult that is left is prbably what it should have been all along...I personally am quite OK with premies running all over the world to see and hear the latest jokes and expressions from the guru, if that's what they want....it's just a shame that maharaji didn't listen to a lot of his personal advisors 30 years ago, instead of playing the 'saviour' game for so long, and sucking so many people dry.... When you read some of the premies responses, it becomes so obvious that nothing profound is said, and the fan club aspect becomes sillier and sillier....it makes me wonder why some of these premies don't take 'the light' they have supposedly been shown and put it into their own life, instead of focusing it on the guru....I have one friend you probably remember from DC whose life is a joke, and will freely admit that, but continually runs back to the feet of the master, because he says that m and k are the only things that work for him...pretty pathetic, when you see the results in some of these peoples lives...

Subject: Re: A throughly evolved cultist From: The Other Neville To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 18:54:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Tonette, that's how I felt when the daughter was mentioned. Nauseated. The non-heroic, non-placard-carrying, non-Australian Neville

Subject: To the witty and endearing Neville From: Livia To: The Other Neville Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 20:23:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Neville, you may not hold placards aloft, and you may not be brave or heroic - and you may never even leave your house as far as I know, but you sound very lovable. Big hug to you Liv XX

Subject: Ah, gosh, you're too kind [nt] From: The Other Neville To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 08:53:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yes, good point From: Jim To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:20:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did Roupell encourage her to actually invesigate Maharaji for herself or did he just invite her into the same kind of warm bathwater he's been floating in for years? Interesting, isn't it?

Subject: Re: Yes, good point From: The Other Neville To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 18:57:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Suddenly I find I highly value rebellion against parents. The non-Australian Neville

Subject: Re: A thoroughly modern PWK in Amaroo From: Livia To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:23:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's also noticeable that in David Roupell's description of his exchanges with Maharaji, there are several things going on. His exact word-for-word reporting of everything that was said demonstrates an astounding sycophantism. 'I am known for being blunt with him.' Hmmm! What if David ever had a serious question that contained critical comment? How blunt would he dare to be then, I wonder? But then the occasion would probably never arise, because his projection onto Maharaji goes too deep. And anyway, how blunt, exactly, was his remark to Maharaji? It was abject praise that contained the word 'shyte'. Wow! How bold!!! Then he mentions the hilarity from premies that greeted his words. Wow! Positive re-inforcement from all the premies as well as from Maharaji! It must have been an ego-inflating moment that knew no bounds, really. But those moments are common in Maharaji's world - I remember them well. I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that the premies left are mostly if not all saddled with serious personality problems relaing to issues of self-esteeem, going back to childhood. They probably all had critical, neglectful or absent fathers (or mothers), and have projected all their needs to be loved onto Maharaji. They then imagine that he loves them in the way they needed to be loved, but weren't, sadly, when they needed to be. I was reading an article yesterday about drug rehabilitation clinics and how well the 12-step programme can work. It involves belief in a higher power, and apparently after leaving these clinics a lot of the ex-addicts turn to religion. Either that, or they return to their drug of choice. To a man/woman, they all suffer from poor self-esteem. Premies have similar problems, and have chosen Maharaji to be their 'higher power'. I once knew a premie who became an ex but then immediately joined AA although she didn't have a drink problem. (Strange I know, but there you go.) She had an enormous need for a self affirming group that believed in a higher power. When premies grow up, their need to believe in Maharaji begins to fade. They all suffer from arrested development. Love, Livia

Subject: After the psychology...the philosophy... From: The Other Neville To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:25:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good analysis of the psychology, Livia. I have another take on it the subject: M teaches pantheism, a system within which God is essentially impersonal and every aspect of personality--the ability to love, feel, respond etc--is seen an error, something to be stamped out. (Does this sound familiar? Do you know any premies suffering from triple personality bypass?) I recall Bal Bhagwan Ji (prior to his fall from grace) saying of our souls that, 'The only attribute of atman is that it is attributeless.' This is the picture of the human heart that underpins M's teaching. But it is wrong: we are people, and we need other people. Hence pantheistic cults are, paradoxically, centred around a cult leader (this seems to be the pattern in India, where such a figure is the norm), someone who can put a human face on the harsh, impersonal visage of God. (Non-pantheistic cults also idolise leaders, but I would contend that it is in a different way.) Hence the concept of Darshan. Hence the desperate need to be in M's presence. Hence the exaggerated reaction to anything 'human' M does--the Krishna dance, the weak jokes etc. In a sense, an event like Amaroo is the only opportunity premies have to be human, which is probably why their attempts seem so clumsy: they are very out of practice... The non-Australian etc Neville

Subject: A most enjoyable read, Neville. Thanks. [nt] From: PatC To: The Other Neville Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 04:05:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: After the psychology...the philosophy... From: Livia To: The Other Neville Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:45:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very good point, Neville. You're right; it's bhakti yoga, plain and simple. I wonder how many gurus there are in India claiming to be Satguru? Does anyone have a rough idea? The theory is, though, as Shri Hans Ji pointed out, that the Satguru must be of impeccable character, otherwise the whole thing doesn't work. The premies project so heavily onto Maharaji and are so convinced of who they think he is, that any objective evaluation of his character went out the window years ago, if it was ever there in the first place. Their own characters then become corrupted through the long-term worship of someone who is all too human. it happens over a period of years. This is why, as someone reported here a week or so ago, the new premies are still relatively clear and bright. It's the older ones that have gradually lost the plot through a too-long association with someone who is not what he purports to be. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: After the psychology...the philosophy... From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 10:34:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'the new premies are still relatively clear and bright' hey, they always were; its a few years down the line you need to check'em out......always play the long game; there's no such thing as a quick fix, and certainly no such thing as a free lunch! When you put somone beyond question, you put yourself beyond reason; and if reason cannot find you, what value are your realisations? Luv AV

Subject: How many Satgurus are there? From: PatC channeling Prem Rawat To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 04:19:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You asked: ''I wonder how many gurus there are in India claiming to be Satguru? Does anyone have a rough idea?'' At one of the Q and A sessions (printed up in one of those little booklets) that Prempal held when he was still a little pimple around 72 or 73 someone asked him: ''I've heard that there are many gurus in India who claim to be Satguru. How many Satgurus are there?'' Rev Pimple answered: ''365 - one for every day of the year but I am YOUR Satguru.'' Pure bhakti yoga - primitive rubbish. Belief is relief. We may have been conned BUT our testimony here will make sure that this con is not perpetrated again in the west on such a messianic scale as Rawat's and it's time will soon be up in the east too. I hope. What silly feudalistic nonsense.

Subject: More than enough satgurus From: Richard To: PatC channeling Prem Rawat Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 11:07:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Google turns up more SatGurus than you can shake a forum at. This link is a site featuring 3, count 'em 3 Satgurus. One was even born and raised in California. LOL Here's one glorifying a Sat Guru's Mahasamadhi (a bit ghoolish): http://www.poonja.com/mahasamadhi.htm Satgurus www.gurudeva.org/index.shtml

Subject: Yes, isn't Roupell funny that way? From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:27:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Roupell's a real piece of work with his 'wild and crazy kinda guy' act within the safe nrusery room walls of his cult. You're absolutely right, Liv. His 'I'm known for being blunt' is a farce given the servile attitude he has for the guy. I don't know. Some people actually bought designer, stone-washed jeans and some didn't. Roupell's swagger is as funny as Cat's version is as funny as Mili's is as funny as CD's. They're all comedians in a way. Can you imagine a road-trip movie with the four of them in a car together, perhaps following Maharaji around Europe or something? Oh god, I'm starting to laugh to myself now .... oh no, I'm like really laughing now .... LOL!!!!! :)

Subject: Re: self esteem From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:24:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Could write abook on what you just said Liv, god, the low self esteem thing is set in concrete as a pwk, some terminology substitutes would not go amiss for 'higher power', read 'all-pervading power' maybe. the only way pwks seem to have of overcoming the self esteem thing is by sudden and irrational shifts into anger, aggression , and worse ,full scale manipulation by hi-honchos; why do I say this? because I've seen myself do it over the years, and only recently have started to be like a REGULAR GUY WITHOUT ANY 'HIGHER AGENDA', and you know what, people like being around me more....there's a f*****g suprise huh???

Subject: Addendum - brainwave! From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 10:47:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The personality problems that premies tend to suffer from (low self-esteem, etc) are the reason it is pretty pointless debating with them. They have projected so powerfully onto Maharaji that their need to maintain this projection overrides any foray into rational, objective thought. This need will compel them into a pick-and-mix list of rationalisations from which they will draw almost at random. You can attempt to refute each one with rationality but they will spin and deflect at every turn. I know this, because I did it myself for years, and recognise every argument I hear these days coming from premies. I used to use the exact same arguments myself. The only time it's worth debating with premies is when they're beginning to grow/wake up, and withdraw their projection onto Maharaji. They then begin to become free to examine him as he really is, not how they'd like him to be, which is, of course, the ideal father figure; the father who really loves them, really cares about them, really knows about them (and understands everything else to boot.) This is when the scales begin to fall from their eyes and everything falls into a different order. Premies are terrified of this happening to them, because the scariest thing for them is to learn to live without the imagined but desperately needed total love of a perfect father. Even abused children cling to the belief that their abusing parent actually really loved them; so it's not difficult to see the mechanism at work in adult premies too. Where there is manipulation, the abused child sees love. Where there is indifference, the abused child sees love. Where there is manipulation, the premie sees love. Where there is indifference, the premie sees love, because he/she needs to - plain and simple. The problem facing premies is that unless they find a life outside Maharaji's world, and start making true friends who aren't premies, they are unlikely to be able to break the spell. They imagine that their only true friends are premies and that the only real love they will find in this world is through Maharaji, hence their need to stay where they are. Speaking personally here, the scales began to fall from my eyes when I began making friends with adults in the adult world, who didn't need to imagine that a person they had never met really loved them. They seemed to be leading lives full of humour, intelligence and creativity and they weren't afraid to question and explore. They might not have had grandiose ideas that they had a direct link to the truth, but their lives seemed to reflect something far deeper and more substantial than I was seeing in premies by then. Understandably, I began to prefer their company. Premies grappling with the idea of maybe leaving shouldn't be afraid. The world doesn't fall apart; you don't feel abandoned. The thing you feel is going to abandon you is imaginary anyway. We don't really know what we're here for, but we can go on surmising if we really want to - no one can stop us. And if you love meditation, well, you can still do that too! And if you had great experiences in meditation, well, guess what? They won't be any different, I guarantee you. The alternative is to stay in a shrinking world that lets less and less of the real world in because it cannot afford to. The disbelief you had to suspend when you were waiting for Knowledge is the same disbelief you need now, to recover and develop the sense of who you really are. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: Addendum - fabulous (nt) From: Gail To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:40:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Wonderful! Great letter to pemies for EPO!nt From: Jim S. To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 10:32:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: WOW [nt] From: Loaf To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 14:07:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Very insightful post there, Livia From: cq To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:59:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And let's hear it for those premies who are slowly realising that the cheese of 'Knowledge' (now cunningly re-marketed as 'self-knowledge') leads directly to the mousetrap of - as you put it so well: 'a shrinking world that lets less and less of the real world in because it cannot afford to'. Does Maharaji still tout the mantra: 'Belief is relief'? Shouldn't that be 'No brain - no pain'? And this insight of yours needs a prominent placing on EPO, IMO: 'The disbelief you had to suspend when you were waiting for Knowledge is the same disbelief you need now, to recover and develop the sense of who you really are' amen to that!

Subject: Brava, Livia - **Best Of** From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 12:43:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a wonderful essay on the PWK to Ex conundrum. You have really said it so well and compassionately. Your post communicates much care for our fellow human beings who are still doing the Gu-Gu Ga-Ga. I know your words will be of help to many who are afraid to let go of the rotten branch they've clung to for so long. BTW: Did you and AV know each other before posting on the forum? You two carry on very deep and meaningful conversations that I always enjoy reading. It's as if you've done that for years. It's good to see you and other relatively recent arrivals bring fresh ideas to keep the forum interesting. Richard

Subject: Re: Brava, Livia - **Best Of** From: Livia To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 20:19:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard and thanks for your kind words. I always love reading your posts too and always like it when you're here - in fact, I think this forum has been a fantastic read lately - a heartfelt thanks to everyone. XXXX Mwah!!! No, AV and I haven't met and I agree, we do have great conversations -sometimes we seem to be working through very much the same stuff. AV, if you're there and you live in England (do you?) it'd be great to meet up sometime and chew all this over in person - with maybe Opie (oops - Thorin!) and others. What do you say?! Love again, Livia

Subject: Class of 2002 From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 21:49:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You, AV, Thorin and a host of others make up the EPO Class of 2002 because all of you started posting around the same time. Or maybe you began late last year, whatever. I have a lot of affection and affinity for the Class of 2001 that I started posting with. Pat C, Chuck, Brian, Marianne, Francesca, Cynthia and myself, among others, all started posting around the same time. Like you, I look forward to seeing these people in person one day soon. Hey, I've almost forgotten about the 30th Millenium Reunion in the Astrodome. This time we'd probably be able to do a better job of filling it with former followers in contrast to the cospicuous no-shows in '72. Hotels this time so no one has to sleep on the floor of the Peace Plant. It would be soooo cool to have Rennie Davis give the keynote address. Richard, dreaming

Subject: Can we rent Amaroo for a Latvian do? From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 04:30:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ivory Rock Conference Center is supposedly available to be rented for conferences by non-cult folks. Perhaps we should reserve it for a weekend so we can have an international Latvian bash. But it sounds like Anth, Nige, Moley et al need to organize another UK Latvian night for all the new pommies to meet each other. Meanwhile closer to home we could always have a Left Coast bash in San Francisco or maybe Portland since that's halfway between the Pacific Northwest contingent and the SF bunch. We can invite the poms if they promise not to drink us under the table.

Subject: Next Latvian event: SF, August From: Marianne To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 13:08:28 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Since the next Latvian Night is being discussed, it appears a poster from across the pond -- whose identity will remain anonymous til the plans are certain --- will be visiting San Francisco in August. Looks like that will be the next get-together on the west coast. Interested attendees should email me. Marianne

Subject: Re: Next Latvian event: SF, August From: Richard To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 14:18:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Postie, Mahatma Coat, Dickie Pwickie and I will all be there. ;) Richard

Subject: promise not to drink us under the table. From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 07:48:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: FAT CHANCE!!!!!!! :~)

Subject: Re: Can we rent Amaroo for a Latvian do? From: Thorin To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 07:34:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC We can invite the poms if they promise not to drink us under the table An acknowledment at last from a yank (or are you Suid Afrikanse?). Every time I go over to the States I always wondered why the natives there seem to sip their booze so slowly and then want to go home so early. Weak livers eh? Love. Thorin

Subject: Re: Can we rent Amaroo for a Latvian do? From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 08:28:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's the Californian teetotal thing. They're all super concerned about their health. (I think it's different in New York.) Apparently people in LA someimes get told off for smoking out of doors!!! Didn't know they thought of us as heavy drinkers though! (But I suppose a lot of us are.) Love, Liv

Subject: Yanks are puritans From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 13:11:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jennifer Saunders (of ''Absolutely Fabulous'') was asked if she would like to live in Hollywood. She answered: ''No thanks, the people are nuts. They all belong to AA, don't drink, don't smoke so they can live forever but they live on an earthquake fault-line where they could be killed any minute.''

Subject: You know Livia, From: Tonette To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:18:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I read all your posts when I can, when I have time. I have come to a conclusion. You really are an awesome woman. Love, Tonette

Subject: to Tonette From: Thorin To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:35:09 (EDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: Tonette Ya gotta believe it - Livia is really an awesome woman - whoever she is. To think that we live in such a topsy-turvey world where premies can call her a 'barren old hag' and say that she is lucky that M has not 'pulled the plug' on her is truly unbelievable. I am sure that Livia (and you to Tonnete) have brought much clarity and wisdom to fence-sitting premies. In fact several people who read F7 but do not post have said to me how much they enjoy reading Livia. Long live the power of love and clarity. warmly, Thorin

Subject: Re: to Tonette From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:03:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You lot are sweet, you really are. I can't tell you how much I've appreciated you all these last months. I would love to meet you all, I really would. Through this forum I have been able to slowly unravel a 30-year mindset....and it's not over yet. We need to have a big, big party one day! Lots and lots and lots of love to all of you great people Liv XXXXX

Subject: Time for another love-fest From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 04:42:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Last year in May, the class of 2001, had a love fest. Jim was even infected and made friends with several premies like Andrea Erikson or was that Erika Andersen? Postie ''came out'' as Richard and we all began to post our pics. Part of this had to do with a little campaign that I ran to get people to post under their real names which is what distiguishes us from the paranoid anonymous premie trolls. Unfortunately it backfired and our pictures were published along with some hideous lies on CAC. As a result I no longer encourage people to be as open about themselves as I am BUT I still think it was worth it as the cult is not to be feared. It really is a silly little outfit not worth worrying about. They can't do much harm. The world of premies and exes is very small and insignificant to the rest of humanity.

Subject: You know Livia, From: Tonette To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:15:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: No more than a club From: Sir Dave To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:33:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and now I can see why I never liked those Maha events. I did not fit into the club. So why is it marketed as more than a club? Why is it sold as The Truth? It really is just a social club for people who worship Maharaji Prem Rawat as the Living Lord. It has got nothing to do with meditation and that's just the pretence to get new people to join. So when people do join they will eventually realise they've been deceived. Or maybe they will also believe Mr Rawat is God and stay in the club. The trouble is, Maharaji Prem Rawat rules the lives of the members. Personally, I think it pathetic that people's lives are centred around Amaroo once or twice a year and seeing Maharaji. But then I never could make myself a fan, even though I tried, many times. The Prem Rawat fan club. That's all it's come to. Definitely not something that people are going to want to join and no saving the child from crawling into the fire or declaring to establish peace in the world? No way. The whole thing has become, dare I say it, so pedestrian now. If you don't like Rawat, his stage act and his hypocritical philosophy, you won't become a member. Nothing to do with truth or knowledge. Nothing to do with universal love...

Subject: Re: A thoroughly modern PWK in Amaroo From: Bryn To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:17:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Pat, What a good exchange. You are spot-on right (imo) when you say small is how it should always have been, and DR is obviously charmed and inspired by his relationship with M (P?). Love and peace to all. It is striking how DR feels free to comment on those who have removed themselves from his beloved, in terms of 'dog shit'. I can get it though. I saw some premies the other day and immediately went in to 'observe' mode.It wasn't long before detatchment had turned into antipathy. I soon realised that I had developed a fullblown religious hatred for these two innocent folk, based around my feelings of how spiritually deluded they were! I don't see many pwsks and these two I spotted in a restaurant. As you say, Exs, well me at least, simply no longer belong with a guru, but I think exs and pwsks still share in common a ferocious desire to define themselves as being part of some elite group of 'knowers'. I'll admit to it, it has been a major theme of my life to date. Nice post. Thanks, Love Bryn

Subject: Newbies From: Doubt To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:34:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think they know much at all about 'doubt and fear'. Why should they when they've been brought up by people who don't either?!! They have been told over and over and over.....have no doubt. They were brought up by people who were told over and over and over....have no doubt. I was told over and over and over......have no doubt. I researched my doubt and discovered EPO and this Forum and after 2 years of listening to premies and rawat say.....have no doubt....over and over and over.......I walked away. I am glad for the ones who stay and have no doubt in their minds, no doubt that rawat is the one true master of our time, the perfect master (which is what he called himself when I attended his events and videos). I recently read his interview in Leaders magazine and he has personally answered my doubts. Thank you Mr. Rawat, Maharaj ji, Perfect Master, Meditation teacher of self knowledge, or whatever your title is this week, thank you for your sincere candor and coming out (as it were) from hiding from the 'press'. Can I look forward to hearing more from you soon in a more popular press article? I doubt it.

Subject: No Doubt About It! From: Gail To: Doubt Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 17:20:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are lucky to have doubts. We don't believe all the advertising we hear about a car (and that junk is gov't regulated) so why wouldn't we have doubts about the guy who claims to be THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE (kind of tough to prove false advertising here). Congratulations on maintaining control over the rest of your life. If you are curious about the Four Hindu Techniques Prem Rawat has stolen and packaged as his own SELF-KNOWLEDGE, check them out on EPO--much ado about nuthin' really!

Subject: Welcome, Doubt. I welcome doubt! :) From: PatC To: Doubt Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:22:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Leaders article really showed Rev Rawat's true colors. I'm glad I'm out of it and that you are too. Welcome.

Subject: They always have, and they always will From: JHB To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:32:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So said Prem Rawat to David Roupell at Amaroo. Well, he's right - there have always been people who saw through his con, and those who were conned will ensure that the truth about him is available to prevent others being conned. Of course premies will interpret this as meaning that the Perfect Master has always had his critics, every time he has come. But this demonstrates one thing, in that it is clear how inward looking the cult is. Maharaji once said that we were all standing in a circle looking in, but one day he will ask us all to turn around and face the outside. Not sure what he meant but I assumed he was talking about some big propagation push in the future. Well now it's become a private club with a strict membership process, and is even more inward looking. I believe that many at Amaroo had a beautiful experience, but I also believe that many were there out of fear, and would prefer to be out once they know there's a real choice that doesn't involve damnation. Also, the cult is now totally hedonistic. The fact that everyone there had a good time is justification, in the minds of devotees like DR, that the cult is a good thing. John.

Subject: Re: They always have, and they always will From: The Other Neville To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:31:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes: hedonism. Another interesting take on what has been going on at Amaroo. The non-Australian, non-heroic, non-placard carrying, stay-at-home Neville

Subject: Catch the part about having a few drinks first? From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:34:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Was it Roupell or Cat who talked about having a few drinks before settling in for some of Maharaji's satsang. I know I must sound like an old purist or something but, well, can you imagine walking around Amaroo with a big, fat copy of Hans Yog Prakash lecturing drinking premies like an ultra-orthodox jew in Tel Aviv? But what? Are they going to start having cocktail waitresses serve drinks at programs now? Maybe young Miss Roupell can get a job there. What colour's her hair?

Subject: Hey Mr Twister! From: Cat To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:05:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was a few drinks at the end of a long day. You dont approve? Yeah sure...

Subject: Apologies on that one From: Jim To: Cat Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 23:33:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I looked again and see that I was wrong. I thought I'd read something about having a beer or so before Phlegm came on the stage but I guess I was wrong. It was after. My sincere apologies. :)

Subject: Jim, now that's funny! From: Gail To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 00:36:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I pray for reincarnation, so I may be reborn with your brains and wit and my good looks. I roaring here. Phlegm. Poor Cat! That one's tough to beat. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Subject: Groan... From: Cat To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 15:16:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To me it's just more dribble from a very unfunny man. It's actually quite juvenile Gail. Yeah the guy is Quick as a whip....not;)

Subject: The ''spirit'' of Amaroo came out of bottles [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:39:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: So what did you do under that blanket? From: Moley To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 19:11:56 (EDT) Email Address: Moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: O.K. confession time you lot... Just curious as to what we all did whilst under the blanket, grappling with our beragons (who invented them anyway?). I'll go first: 1: In most sincere mode, genuine attempts to transcend 'mind'. These consisted of sincere finger-poking exercises (in my eyes, honest). 2: Almost sincere efforts, i.e. writing 'poetry', 'divinely inspired' - no. don't ask. 3: Not very sincere efforts at all, mostly involving writing shopping lists/planning dusting and hoovering. 4: Not sincere at all, involving very unspiritual fantasies about other premies (always came to no good if propped up in bed at the time).

Subject: I got bored shitless [nt] From: The Other Neville To: Moley Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 18:39:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: True story From: Richard To: Moley Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:19:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In the early 70's, a premie friend was meditating on the roof of 1263 Josephine Street in Denver. It was summer and he was using a sheet over him. He described how he was really getting into 'word' when his whole conciousness was flooded with light. This lasted for a few minutes and then he heard a voice calling to him. 'Hey you down there, are you OK?' He pulled off the sheet and there above him was a police helicopter with spot light on him. They apparently thought he was a body wrapped in a sheet. LOL!!! BTW: the blanket/sheet thing was so the uninitated wouldn't see the secret techniques. I was reprimanded by WPC at Montrose because I was flagrantly practicing out in the open while uncovered.

Subject: Re: True story From: Livia To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:33:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I once knew a premie who was meditating in LA one day when he started to have the most extraordinary experience. Everything was vibrating and he was filled with the most extraordinary sensations of his life....... Then he heard shouting and the pounding of feet. He lifted his blanket and saw scenes of utter panic all around him. 'Holy shit!!!' he exclaimed as he realised what was happening. 'It's a ****ing earthquake!!!' Love, Livia

Subject: Seriously? Okay but it's a little blunt. From: Tonette To: Moley Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 10:13:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If it was in the morning I usually went back to sleep. I've never been a morning person. Funny how my Knowledge of God was not able to transcend easily my nature. If it was at night, I patiently waited under my blanket for my devout husband to finish so I could seduce him. No, it didn't always work, usually he was too 'tired' from meditating! Did anyone ever wonder about the blanket scene? Now, was the blanket used so non-premies would not see the techniques or was the blanket devised so premies could jolly well do whatever they wanted to while under it? Lots of day dreaming, some sleep, numb arms, patterns from my eyes, crickets when I plugged my ears, sore tongue, that's what I remember. Meditation, one of the things I never got the hang of although I did try. Some here swear by the experience. I have never seen the value in it frankly. I remember very well when M altered the light technique. Hubby came home from knowledge review and informed me, since I did have knowledge after all, good news, Tonette, you don't press your eyeballs anymore and proceded to show me the revisions in all the techinques. I thought well thank god for that, you won't be risking a retinal detachment any longer by squishing all the aquaeous humor out of your eye. Praise the lord! I tried knowledge 'lite' version, the revision. Still didn't work for me. It was 100% boring! Another fun post that cuaght my eye. Take care Moley and happy nuptials! Love, Tonette

Subject: re: the end of eye gouging From: John G To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:11:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Tonette, The fat boy made us all promise not to tell anyone about the change in the light technique and it is true you are not a morning person

Subject: Re: So what did you do under that blanket? From: Bolly Shri To: Moley Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:18:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Moley, I think dusting and hoovering are both universal divine experiences. I too contemplated these activities along with composing shopping lists and poetry which were of a similar quality to each other. More recently my meditation has been on planting schemes for the garden. These are extremely blissfull and I am thinking of starting a religion based on the concept of the inner gardener. Anyone wishing to find the gardener within can join for a small fee and see me from a great distance . I promise to blame the weather and a lack of faith for any experience falling short of absolute bliss. Jai and compost, Love Bolly

Subject: Re: So what did you do under that blanket? From: janet To: Moley Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 05:23:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: shut out the world and went far, far away. except to get riled and indignant if someone else in the room or out in the street made annoying noise. then I wasted time being pissed at them until I could gather up my wits and get back on the stick . literally. got in the habit of not being able to go to sleep unless it was from the blanket first. still sometimes do it to this day out of sheer conditioningL when I find I can't settle down and go to sleep, or when I wake up but can't get the body to move yet, I haul myself upright to sitting half lotus, pull my shawls [I still have them after 23 years, I sleep with them] over my head like the virgin mary[it makes me feel holy] and sit there like a lump with my eyeupturned and closed until I geel coalesced enough to either get up and make it down the hall to the bathroom, or I fade far away for god knows how long, and later if I rouse just enough to realiZe I've been sitting like that for a long time, I can lie down again and sleep for real without my mind terrorizing me like it sometimes does in the twilight between lying down and actually going to sleep. this last has been a serious phobia at times. I developed a new ptoblem in 1981 after being forced to take Navane, an antipsychotic, when my father trapped me in a mental hospital for 9 months. I had never had a fear of heights before the stay. the Navane induced a bizarre compulsion in me when I stood near windows on high floors, that made me feel overwhelmingly like I desired to shatter the glass and jump out. I had to stay away from windows and keept o the inner rooms to head off any possibility of acting out this strange new urge. I only had to take the stuff for 3 weeks before they dropped it, but the fear permanently became part of my subconscious and conscious. Ever since then, in the twilight wile sinking into sleep, I get these terrifying flashes outta nowhere of myself falling out of the sky from airplanes or skyscrapers or cliffs, and I can't shut them out. They utterly destroy my peace. The only thing I know to do to wipe them out is to sit up and pull my shawls over me and 'go away' as described above. I was taking zoloft for 2 years for anxiety attacks, and it didn't stop these invasive bursts that came at me when I was least in a state to get out of them. never ever did anything under the blanket but meditate, fume, or pass out and go away. PS--my cats love the shawls. they knead and tread them when they crave comforting. they all fight with each other, but every one of them thinks the shawls are theirs alone. I bought them in the Krishna temple gift shop in Miami when my son was an infant, intending to use them as slings to carry him in. That idea never quite worked out, but they became my meditation shawls, bed jackets , and all purpose security rags instead.

Subject: shaking rythmically? From: Moley did you see my blanket To: Moley Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 23:25:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At least I think that is what you are hinting at!

Subject: Re: So what did you do under that blanket? From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Moley Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 21:08:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tried to meditate, and on the rare occasion actually had an 'experience.' But most often I drifted a bit or fell asleep. I did my share of list writing, too.

Subject: Oh! And it wasn't a blanket From: Mickey the P To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 21:12:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was a cheap Indian print bedspread from Pier One Imports in San Jose, California. I did have a fine berrogan, with padded armrest and the table leg unscrewed from the armrest for easy packing. I have no idea what ever happened to that thing; probably went the way of the many framed photos cut out of 'And It Is Divine.'

Subject: Re: Oh! And it wasn't a blanket From: bill To: Mickey the P Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 21:45:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I tried once to use a sheet, about 3 minutes into it I didnt like the air quality. That was it for a cover. Too bad I wasnt quick with discarding the bad air out of rawats mouth.

Subject: Bad air quality - no kidding From: Moley To: bill Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:44:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All those sheets, blankets, throws, shawls etc.... maybe we were all just oxygen-deprived. Explains a lot. Gawd knows how we had enough air to make that blanket shake rhythmically :)

Subject: Re: Bad air quality - no kidding From: Bolly Shri To: Moley Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:50:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That blanket shaking happens a lot if more than one of us is gathered in his name under the covers.

Subject: Re: Bad air quality - no kidding From: Moley To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:57:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1+1=11... isn't that what he said?... the mind boggles!!! :) :)

Subject: Will the real god please sit down… From: Nigel To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 17:08:38 (EDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Lower down we were talking about how M (sorry, ‘Prem’) could make next year’s Amaroo even better than this year’s ‘best ever’ event. And I was thinking about one of the UK’s most popular and irritating TV programmes called Stars in their Eyes’. The format is simple: a parade of wannabe pop-stars each get five minutes to emulate some established act – the winner supposedly being the best lookalike/soundalike. It has to be said, however, that in many cases the performances are at least as good as those of the heroes they impersonate (the only true indicator of quality being those cases where the original artist had a measure of creative talent or originality which sets them above being mere talented stage performers in the first place). And was also thinking of this UK TV pop quiz (Never Mind the Buzzcocks) where the best round is the one where some faded has-been from a decade or two ago – maybe the guy from Mungo Jerry or Kajagoogoo – lines up in an identity parade to see whether the contestants can pick them out from these similar-looking nobodies. Potentially very humiliating for the stars involved, but it certainly makes you like them more for their willingness to confront the possible ignominy of no longer being recognisable as stars.. And I also remember changing flights in Singapore a while back and seeing Maharaji, right there in the departure lounge. Seriously, this guy was truly M’s double: the facial features, the figure, skin-hue, gut, designer suit… everything. I naturally did a double-take before realising the ‘real’ M would never subject himself to mingling with ordinary business class travellers who don’t even own their own planes, let alone fly them. (But if this guy were to turn up at Amaroo and wander about, he could have an absolute ball with premies fawning and grovelling right, left and centre.) That was my first time in Asia and I quickly realised how Prem’s kind of physical features in that part of the world are fairly commonplace, and having spotted this first lookalike, soon started noticing them all around me – not exact matches like this first guy was, but pretty close. (I am perfectly aware that Asians or blacks see white westerners as tending to look alike, more so than we do – just a familiarity thing) I know I have proposed a similar experiment before (can you tell real M from Fake M?) - but more in the sense of can you tell a Master’s bullshit from a non-Master’s? But anyway, wouldn’t it be interesting – nay, hysterically funny - if Prem teamed up and vied with five or so dead ringers and they did a joint Amaroo stage act? It could be part entertainment and part science .. think about it: The thing is, unlike with Stars in Their Eyes, Prem has no conspicuous creative genius that would distinguish him from his imitators. Can you imagine the poetry round? The bajan singing event? The funniest / most humiliating gags at the pewks’ expense..? The climax, of course, would be where they all come together, don Krishna-garb and snake around the stage in a Madness-style, wobbly conga line… And picture the multiple darshan scenario: six luxury air-conditioned armchairs randomly ordered in a blue tunnel, their incumbents wearing sacks on their heads for added anonymity, identical tooters luxuriating on identical cushions… ‘So tell us premies - which of these heavenly hooves belong to the THE LOTUS WITH THE MOSTEST!!? Whose toes ooze the kosher juju juice? Then picture the elimination round as the rejects leave the stage, one by one, ushered off to a chorus of ribald jeers… If I were a practising premie I would honestly love this sort of thing. Who wouldn’t? Aside from the fun factor, there would be the sheer joy of affirmation in being able to witness the authenticity of the divine shining like a precious jewel among dull pebbles; to feel the uniquely cosmic presence of the REAL incarnation of God amongst the upstart nobodies. To be able to prove to myself, once and for all, that the ‘presence’ of the Master goes way beyond any conditioned biofeedback process or projection on my part. Or would I..? The truth is, I honestly believe if anyone were to look the part, walk the walk, talk the talk, learn to ad lib and ramble in that characteristically unstructured way, run the odd Self-Knowledge session, they could easily master being a Master, and in so doing capture the sum total what Maharaji is - ie, a a stage act and nothing more. Admittedly a stage act which, by now, is well-honed (how could it not be?) and guaranteed to press certain emotional triggers within the audience; but a stage act nonetheless - learnable skills. There would be no special mystery ingredient to distinguish the real from the imitation (or I challenge any premie to explain what that ingredient might be). One day Prem will die (not a threat – just a fact of life) and, inevitably, someone will step into the lotus boots and learn the part. I imagine at that moment the average pwk will experience the greatest inner turmoil of their devoteeship: persuading themselves that such a mystery ingredient had indeed been passed on in some miraculous ‘transfer of knowledge’, to use Prem’s phrase from this week’s Amaroo. Fact: Charlie Chaplin once secretly entered a Chaplin lookalike contest and came third! But at least Chaplin - actor, scriptwriter, singer, composer, all-round creative genius - was way more than a mere performer. Closer scrutiny of the contestants in questions would have rapidly established him as such. More to the point, even without those added qualities, he was ultimately just an entertainer with no pretence to being anything more than that. Unfortunately premies have no yardstick for evaluating the scope of their own favourite entertainer’s messianic delusions. And they risk – at their peril - sharing those delusions by imagining Amaroo to be anything more profound than a (very expensive) stage show.

Subject: If belief is relief ... From: cq To: Nigel Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 14:10:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If belief is relief ... (as apparently the Maha says, though in my day belief was seen as a cop-out: the 'knowledge'/experience of 'God' being preferential to any belief-system) ... but, of course, it isn't 'Knowledge of God' any more, it's just another belief system. Which, for your average premie simply means: 'No brain - no pain'

Subject: Great post, Nige From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:36:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent, really. And John's point was interesting too. That Charlie Chaplin thing's amazing, by the way.

Subject: a far better ruse: From: janet To: Nigel Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 05:57:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good raw concept. But for better PsyOps impact, i think it would have even more impact, if rather than try to invite him to be a willing participant, wouldn't it be even better to start quietly searching in asia, auditioning for 'dead ringer' doubles of him? take out ads all over asia with pictures of Mj and the caption ' Do you look like this guy? Do your friends think you could be him? We need you' and then explain to the candidates who answer, that this is to be both a practical joke, and a serious challenge to the cultists beleifs? train the winners to impersonate him to the maximum degree-- with videos to capture his mannerisms, his speaking voice, etc--and then one by one, quietly set them loose to walk Amaroo at festival time, all over, go anywhere they like, act the part, and create absolute havoc for security, the guests and the Man Hisself? Doppelgangers everywhere. He would literally see himself coming and going. Imagine the rumors. The conflicting reports. The confusion. Especially if when Prem was actually out there himself and saw one of the doubles getting the mobbing and sycophancy treatment, and no one noticed him yet. And then when they did, the confusion and hesitation. This could be soooooooooo good.....what a bomb to drop, to prove the point.

Subject: Oh yeah! That's FAR BETTER!! From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 14:17:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're a genius, Janet! :)

Subject: Re: Will the real god please sit down? From: Richard To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 18:07:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good one, Nigel. When stripped of the stage aura, could M still draw the adoration of the faithful or would they they reject him as a fake and worship the postal clerk from Patna or mechanic from Beijing? If you see the Master on the road, would you know it was him or would you have to be told? I know for myself that, in the beg-ning, the extreme focus on one young boy from India certainly made him more believeable. When I mentioned GMJ's golden, glowing skin to my world-wise Brit grandma her reply was 'In the East, there's lot's of people with skin like that.' Sure, grandma but he's the SatGuru! She knew the truth.

Subject: Stage Presence From: JHB To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 17:28:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great Post, Nigel. Of course he would never subject himself to this, but your post reminded me of something I've noticed about stars that survive. It seems to me that they get better at being stars. I've noticed this about singers and comedians that I didn't particularly like. After 20 or so years, they seem to shine on stage, with a confidence that I guess comes from knowing what they are doing. Even though the content of their entertainment product is still not to my taste, I grow to admire their style. I don't quite know what this has to do with Rawat who I am sure I'll never see again (unless it's in court), but I'm sure it fits in somewhere. John.

Subject: My Momma Knew Better, too! From: Gail To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:55:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I went to see the Lord in NYC in 1974 for his birthday (although Prem never showed up) along with Terry, Anne, Gwen, and Simon. I'd been going to cult meetings for about four months at this point. Due to carbon monoxide poisoning, and the non-stop drill of my premie friends, I proudly announced that Guru Maharaj Ji was the 'Lord' to my mother. Needless to say, she was mortified. The worst of it was that she sent me there due to a cablecast program she'd seen about the four techniques. She thought it sounded interesting. Little did she know that insteading of gaining some wisdom she would be losing half her daughter (begruding duty to visit my mother after that). From that point on, until the day she died, she begged me to leave the cult. If only I could tell her I had!

Subject: Sneering contempt of Maharaji. From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 11:26:38 (EDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: I briefly dipped into an Elan Communications broadcast the other night and realised why so many PWKs adapt such a high handed and contemptuous attitude to non-premies and in particular ex-premies. This stems directly from their (and previously our) conditioning that Maharaji placed on us through his warped and very frightening view of the world. Maharaji was speaking about how dead people just prior to their burial were prepared in such a way to be presentable to relatives and friends. In his usual jocular manner he described in detail the methods of how this was done and concluded that that this was an absolute waste of time seeing that the person was dead and had no further use blah de blah. Presumably he was saying all this to make the apparent grander point that there was something more precious in life than looking after the dead and that people ought to focus on these higher things (presumably gratitude to him). This was all said in his usual sneering and contemptuous manner using pregnant pauses to make his point. I think we all know how he does this. As usual Maharaji received the typical applause from the audience thanking him for his great clarity and profundity - although I must say the applause was slightly muted on this occasion. For me this is a typical, but perhaps extreme example, of the utter contempt and hatred he has for so many things that we hold precious. In this example the fact that we pay respects to the dead is to acknowledge the beauty and compassion that that person has brought too many and to honour their memory. Also to assist us in the loss we suffer - a loss that is genuine and by undertaking this grieving process (with all the symbols that Maharaji sneers at) we are able to overcome that loss and to grow into fuller human beings. All Maharaji was able to display was disrespect and shallowness. No love, no compassion, no understanding - just sneers. Truly shocking. Now I am sure we can all come up with many other examples of how much Maharaji detests this world, its various cultures and endeavours but one thing is clear that this does and that is it conditions his followers to adapt a similar sneering, contemptuous and frightening worldview. A worldview that only allows for inclusion of his belief system and excludes all else. A sad state of affairs. Love, Thorin

Subject: Re: Sneering contempt of Maharaji. From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:26:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sneering and contemptuous - you are spot on. Add arrogant to the list ('we are the only ones to possess self-knowledge') and premies end up even more unpalatable than born-again Christians. I spent some time with a premie not long ago who was talking about an aspect of a primitive culture he visited recently. He spoke contemptuously of this particular traditional custom, and it was glaringly obvious that his view stemmed from his premie mindset. In other words, he said exactly what he thought Maharaji would have said. It showed such an arrogance and an ignorance of history that some of the other people in the room (not premies) were left somewhat stunned. How strange that the thing that was supposed to have set us free has ended up trapping people into an extremely damaging mindset. Love to all, Livia

Subject: re: damaging mindset. From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:39:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I recently invited a life long dear friend and pwk to look at a creative project with a 'devotional/religious' theme; 'as long as it does't involve any of that god crap', was, in part, the response. ((((((((((!)))))))))))

Subject: A glaring example of what he's really like From: Tonette To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:17:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just take a gander at how he treated his own mother. Shunned her for years, she never knew her grandchildren by him, probably didn't even make any sort of ammends even after she was old and sick. Ah but it's all about the heart and knowing ain't it? Yeah right. He really is the worst sort of person. I'm not talking arrested developement nor selfishness, the core of M's heart is full of hate. How can he dwell so continually on how awful this world is and human beings in general unless that is how HE thinks and acts. You hit the nail on the head with your post Thorin. Well said indeed. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: well put (nt) From: Susan To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 23:22:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Great post Thorin. Yes, utter contempt From: Moley To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 18:44:28 (EDT) Email Address: moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: for human emotions.... I can't count the number of times god-in-a-bod poured utter scorn on our 'ordinary' human feelings. What utter shit. I remember (Hans Jayanti Rome '77) a premie couple whose baby had just died. They were smiling for Chrissake - and who can blame them - rationalising like crazy that all was fine and dandy cos the 'Lord' was on the planet. Ironic, really, what a lot of rationalising premies have to do to 'get out of their minds'. Love Moley

Subject: Re: Great post Thorin. Yes, utter contempt From: Bolly Shri To: Moley Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:29:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well put Thorin. Moley thats's not just sad it's sick.

Subject: relationships From: silvia To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 15:04:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How many times maharaji has talked BAD about human relationships? I remember many in the 26 years i was in the cult. Always saying that the oNLY relationship worth of having is with him!!! maharaji, you know what I feel for you: ROT IN HELL, IF THERE IS ONE, FOR ETERNITY, BASTARD!!! hi thori

Subject: Very true From: Sir Dave To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:17:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and one of the main reasons why I found it increasingly impossible to follow Maharaji until my final exit in 1983 was because of his contempt for all things that ordinary people hold dear. He really is a most horrible man and I could not bare to listen to any more of his contemptuous drivel beyond '83. It is beyond my comprehension how people these days actually enjoy listening to him and following his every word. But as they say in Yorkshire; "There's nowt so queer as folk."

Subject: Re: Very true From: Livia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:05:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God, Dave, it's so good to read this stuff. It's exactly what I was feeling at that time. I used to try and discuss it with premies and they would usually say it was all in my head. They's say you can do whatever you want in your life as long as you practise Knowledge. But I would say 'but why does Maharaji have to rubbish everything else if that's the case?' And as your Master, you would just wish he would acknowledge the value of different aspects of the world, like literature, art, music, you name it. But he never would. It was all secondary, and explicitly (or implicitly) rubbished. I think this attitude of his has been very confusing for premies, because if they find themselves engaging with the world with any enthusiasm, they are left either with confusion or with a sense of guilt. But the world of Maharaji is too narrow and life-denying to have enough to offer, so the premies are caught between a rock and a hard place. Love, Livia

Subject: LIV re:, like literature, art, music, y From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:18:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe apart from the odd book (Milky)and the endless New Age Elevator Music, there ain't been much manifestation of THAT GRATITUDE thru' the arts....I wonder why, no I really do, I'm genuinely stumped on that one.....

Subject: I'll tell you why people listen now.. From: Loaf To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 04:29:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he talks with utter confidence. He appears confident and happy in the face of lifes great mysteries He offers not an answer to the big questions, but a way to avoid them, which removes the need for an answer. He talks of a knowable proof and about trusting yourself. He appears to be life affirming. It feels good to be 'open' to his company because he is funny, successful and seems happy. He talks about an answer to a lot of niggling doubts and problems He knows how to expertly 'play' an audience. He is also skilled at alarm-bell avoidance.. like a cat-burgler he can charm and carefully avoid triggering off alarms by NEVER addressing particular issue, but Always addressing the context. (This is a blind spot which we have... we are unused to having our CONTEXT addressed... we tend to deal with life as a series of events, but he places these events in a context to which we have NO comparison. This wrong foots us.. and becomes a self-serving prophesy.. the more we accept his context (Cos we never had one of our own, not conciously) the more events will prove him right. This seems to me to be a good point. (Although I say so myself).

Subject: Re: I'll tell you why people listen now.. From: Dep =) To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:42:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay Loaf, How do you explain this. There was a guy who came around to the small community I was in who seemed really lost and out of it. He was poorly dressed, grubby, paranoid, hunched over, shifty-eyed, and I heard through the grapevine that he was on welfare and receiving counselling for something or other. He watched videos for well over a year and I could see gradual, positive changes in him. He became more relaxed, friendlier, cleaner, more confident and moved a little faster. Then one day I saw him and had to look twice to see if it was the same guy. He had received Knowledge and he now looked entirely different. His was much better dressed in a sort of hippie/preppie style, his posture had changed and he had a twinkle in his eye. It was amazing. The scientist in me had seen it happen. It wasn’t a matter of my opinion, it was objective observation. I had seen this guy change, and to my mind his transformation was nothing short of miraculous. How do you explain or devalue this? That’s why I can’t find myself hating PR or ridiculing K because I’ve seen it work! Okay, time to rip the old Dog.

Subject: Re: I'll tell you why people listen now.. From: Livia To: Dep =) Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 08:44:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I used to know a woman who was a complete wreck until she discovered Jesus and gave him her heart. She then became this radiant being, overflowing with love and strength. She would hold forth at meetings about her miraculous conversion and convinced many that she was a 'woman of God'. Does that mean Christianity's the truth then? Livia

Subject: Superficial and gullible beyond words From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 14:54:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're constantly amazing me with your lack of insight, Dog. Constantly. Do you actually think that any church group in town couldn't claim the same 'success stories'?

Subject: Re: Superficial and gullible beyond words From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 01:14:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, you are a sick man.

Subject: I'm NOT a knocker !!! From: Loaf To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:49:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I would never devalue something like that. BUT explaining is NOT devaluing !!! A fundamental thing which Maharaji taught me.. 'the ordinary IS miraculous' which I now see the truth of : If the ordinary is Miraculous then the miraculous = ordinary = miraculous ! So understanding or examining the psychological and social foundations of GRACE is NOT to devalue it... but to allow my MIND to be filled with light. I thought you'd understand. Let us consider now your redeemed friend : There are good influences in a persons life which are not entirely magical... having an interest in life, in FEELINGS, having Maharaji as a supportive and inspiring teacher... meditation... all these things can mean a LOT to someone. They did (and still do) to me ! I am not making a direct comparison, but ANY faith can move mountains. Troubled and depressed people also get religion and they and their fellow Christians applaud their transformation as proof of the power of Jesus. Is it Jesus ? Or perhaps something they have done between them. A crutch is all well and good... but there comes a time when continuing to use it will actually do you harm. Its OK for me to move on. I do NOT hate or knock Maharaji, he is a partof my life... but also the process of analysis and examination which I undergo now is exceptionally healthy for me. No 'mind' problems.. no doubt... no barriers, just the flow and patterns of life and information, and the steering of an inner 'sense' which responds, reacts and adapts to inspiration from my fellow explorers. I have no vested interest in any club... I wish Maharaji all the best, and am in NO way against him.. i am simply sharing my perspective as freely as is my right and priviledge. I benefit enormously from many peoples perspectives in my life.. maharaji's as well as the exes... and I feel free to take courage, hope, inspiration and meaning wherever my heart and mind find it. I wonder why you think me a knocker ? was I not fair in my analysis of Maharaji's undeniable and immense charm ?

Subject: Deppie didn't mean you! [nt] From: Christina -) To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 14:58:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Deppie didn't mean you! From: Dep To: Christina -) Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 00:49:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf, Christina is right. Don't take it personally. If anyone I was referring to Jim. Christina you are like a guardian angel. A true angel you are. If you don't mind my asking, how old are you? =) =)

Subject: I understand and agree with you, Dog From: PatC To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:03:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Almost the exact same thing happened here with an aspirant named Rainbow. In fact Cosmic Traveller posted last week on Life is Great to celebrate Rainbow's first year birthday of having K. This guy also was on welfare (still is) and the church-ladies were very reluctant to take him seriously as an aspirant. He also has improved a lot but he still dresses hippie not ''hippie-preppie'' (what IS that BTW?) M and K have obviously been a positive force in his life. You said: ''That’s why I can’t find myself hating PR or ridiculing K because I’ve seen it work!'' Well, I don't hate Rev Rawat and I still enjoy meditating BUT I do not agree with you when you say, ''I've seen IT work.'' What you and I have seen in these two old crusties is THEY have started to work. Maybe not real jobs - but at least they have started to make SOME effort and not sit around depressed and apathetic on their bums all day long on welfare. It is their effort which has improved their lives. Sure Rawat provided the hope and inspiration. That's why I won't knock premies - because some people are not self-motivated and do need someone to inspire them.

Subject: to Dog From: Thorin To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 12:05:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Dog I know your post was addressed to Loaf, I hope you don't mind me jumping in. Your objective observation (your bolding) is based on a fallacy, the fallacy that you believe that M and K was the direct cause of this guys improvement, which no doubt occurred, no one would argue with you on that. I would put it to you that this guy, through his own self-motivation, picked himself up by his own boot straps. The context he used was watching videos, receiving the meditation techniques and going from there. There are many other contexts that this could have happened. I can't remember when you took Knowledge (I did in early 70's), I do remember many poorly dressed, grubby, paranoid, hunched over, shifty-eyed people coming to M&K and getting the improvement you speak of. However it is clear that is was through their own motivation that they made the step-change. Question for you? Do you believe that the self-serving, delusional thinking and narrow belief system that M displays is healthy for his followers in the long run? I personally don't think hating PR or ridiculing K is what is happening here. What is happening here is understanding the dynamics of cults, what damage cults can do and providing a forum for rational discussion and, hopefully, assisting others who no longer feel comfortable in following Maharaji. Love, Thorin

Subject: Re: to Dog From: Dep =) To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:45:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your thoughtful response Thorin. You said, 'However it is clear that is was through their own motivation that they made the step-change.' Well my answer to that is, 'So what!' They got better didn't they? Who cares how it happened. You also asked if I 'believe that the self-serving, delusional thinking and narrow belief system that M displays is healthy for his followers in the long run?' Doesn't work for me, but hey, whatever turns you on. Thanks Thorin.

Subject: Re: to Dog (again!) From: Thorin To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 15:02:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog You said: Doesn't work for me, but hey, whatever turns you on. What's that meant to mean?! Does anything justify the means? Really?! There is a moral and ethical dimension here that absolutly has to be considered. I hope you will. Here is a man that has shown over and over again that he cares not one jot about morals and ethics (witness his behaviour on the Jagdeo situation, his walking away after killing someone, his.... no you go and read EPO once again). Can it be justified that people follow a man of such shallow integrity? A man that only serves himself (and the sycophants that he surrounds himself with). Now don't get me wrong, I don't hate him, in fact I feel truly sorry for him as he is totally trapped and there is absolutly no evidence whatsoever that he may change. Do you not consider the possibility that by following him, and adjusting oneself to his worldview, that one can be tarnished in a negative manner? It is not only about me, mine, I and myself and that experience - it is also about understanding something more. I hope you 'get it'. warmly, Thorin

Subject: Re: to Dog (again!) From: Dep To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 00:35:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog You said: Doesn't work for me, but hey, whatever turns you on. What's that meant to mean?! Does anything justify the means? Really?! There is a moral and ethical dimension here that absolutly has to be considered. I hope you will. Here is a man that has shown over and over again that he cares not one jot about morals and ethics (witness his behaviour on the Jagdeo situation, his walking away after killing someone, his.... no you go and read EPO once again). Can it be justified that people follow a man of such shallow integrity? A man that only serves himself (and the sycophants that he surrounds himself with). Now don't get me wrong, I don't hate him, in fact I feel truly sorry for him as he is totally trapped and there is absolutly no evidence whatsoever that he may change. Do you not consider the possibility that by following him, and adjusting oneself to his worldview, that one can be tarnished in a negative manner? It is not only about me, mine, I and myself and that experience - it is also about understanding something more. I hope you 'get it'. warmly, Thorin --- Thorin, I think that most premies (I may be wrong) relate to Maharaji (I mean Mr. Rawat) on the level of meditation. On that level, there is no entropy, no right and wrong, no morality. It's beyond all that. They don't relate so much to the man, as they do to their inner experience. Mr. Rawat's behaviour is not divine but their experience of their own inner purity is.

Subject: Re: to Dog (again!) From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 08:58:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog that's completely wrong. I know some extremely devoted premies who have hardly ever meditated, yet they adore Maharaji with a fervour that is almost fanatical. And for the premies that do meditate, if their experience really did give them wisdom, they would easily be able to see that it doesn't come from him but from themselves. It wouldn't lead them to have feelings for him. Their feelings for him are closely related to the fact that they have decided he is something truly special - if not God in human form, then something along those lines. The sycophantism says it all. They don't relate so much to the man, as they do to their inner experience. How can you say that, Dog? If that were true, why do you think they travel all the way to Amaroo so they can hang on his every word? Please get real! Love, Livia

Subject: Another keeper, Loafie. Fabulous! From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 04:55:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you save your posts - well some of them.

Subject: gmj hates books From: Marshall To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 00:56:57 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: I read that gmj once said that he tried to read a book once and became bored with it and threw it away. Then in the same tirade he put down movies and all fiction in general. Can you imagine? Prim-pal is such a bore!

Subject: Re: gmj hates books From: Livia To: Marshall Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:13:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AArrrgh!!! He hates books! So of course the premies I talked about a while ago who mysteriously seem to echo Maharaji's tastes in Applemacs, dirty books, astrology and tarot cards probably reject books as part of the same syndrome. Unless he liked books, of course, in which case you'd catch them all reading avidly. One massive aspect of culture rubbished in one fell swoop by this 'teacher of self knowledge.' I know he used to take a dim view of modern art as well, but don't know if this is still the same case. I have certainly noticed that when you talk to a premie about any aspect of culture, many of them will do a quick mental check - 'What does Maharaji think about this? Does he approve?' before they answer. Oh dear, it's very sad. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: gmj hates books From: Thorin To: Marshall Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 05:59:41 (EDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: and pretends to be very knowledgeable about various subjects. Often I have heard him spout off on subjects that I have a good understanding on. He always shows a very thin understanding and most often gets the wrong end of the stick. Then to cap it he uses his limited understanding to conclude something significant about life and this world. And the merry dance continues with the PWKs feeling that they are useless, have understood nothing, prompting a false sense of gratitude to the massa. It is all so connived and transparent. Love, Thorin

Subject: HE didn't seem to hate movies From: Hal To: Marshall Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 02:35:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hypocracy is his speciality though.... We hired a cinema , the Odeon in Elephant and castle , London, so that he could watch Star Wars 17 without being contaminated by ordinary human beings. Around 20 premies with him and the kids. We also hired his favourite Hollybood Indian films, from the film companies direct so he could watch them in his home cinema. Anyone remember going to the circus on Hansi's birthday? We hired the whole circus for a private performance!

Subject: Re: HE didn't seem to hate movies From: Livia To: Hal Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:56:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Things seem to be coming out about how worried Maharaji gets by the idea of being 'contaminated' by ordinary people. Echoes of Michael Jackson? Maybe it's something that can happen to people when they're treated like a god, as Jackson pretty much was for a while. Does anybody here have any first-hand experience of this aspect of Maharaji? Love, Liv

Subject: Yes I was there From: Jethro To: Hal Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 06:23:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Only the ashram prenmies and 'very special' community premies were allowed to come. Georgr Blodwell was in the act there somehwere. And so was prem in his godfather suit. all the best Jethro

Subject: Re: Yes I was there (circus?) From: Thorin To: Jethro Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 06:43:29 (EDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: Jethro Only ashram and special community premies? I too remember being there at the circus with Hansi all dressed up - what a gas that was. However I never was in the ashram not was I a special community premie - I always kept on the fringes. For the life of me I can't remember how I got an invite or indeed when or where this happened. Any ideas? Also do you remember the time we all went to the Brighton auditorium and had Leslie Crowther the comedian do his stand up show with M sitting in the front row? If I remember correctly some relation of Leslie Crowther (his son?) was a premie. Thorin

Subject: Re: Yes I was there (circus?) From: Thorin To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:06:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I may have got the Brighton event slightly wrong. I was just chatting to someone and he said that M may not have been there. In any event it was a 'celebration' of M's birthday or somesuch. Leslie Crowther GuruPuja! :) Thorin

Subject: Re: Yes I was there (circus?) From: Bolly Shri To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:48:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was Brighton in the early to mid 80s, I remember because I had to trail a pushchair through the the place with my youngest ( I PUKE AT THE THOUGHT i EVER TOOK MY OFFSPRING TO ANY OF IT ) Nicholas Parsons who is a very witty and urbane gentleman led the birthday fest. Premie offspring were given trinkets as Christmas presents from the Lord. None of them got a plane or anything dangerous as they were too little to fly alone, so just a few dinky cars and dollys etc. I recall it was more lucky dip than presents from uncle prem. Strangely now you mention it I can't remember if God was there either, and it's the sort of thing you'd expect to notice isn't it? Love etc. Bolly

Subject: Recollections and memory From: Thorin To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:25:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bolly, sheesh my memory really is failing me. yes it was Nick Parsons. I got all my comedians mixed up. Same thing with Maharaji, Mahaheshi, Sai Baba, Osho and Free John. All comedians the lot of them. Re offspring. There was a strong consensus at that time that any child born to a premie was truly blessed, would have a fast-track to realisation of K and become pure devotees. Do you remember listening to satsang from children who received K at a very young age (some below 10 years) - we all got very inspired in our cult impregnated days. Amazes me that so many children made it through those dysfuntional times with many going on to lead normal lives. One exception I know of however was very sad - ultimately led to his suicide after many years of trauma. A recollection for another time perhaps but directly connected, in my mind, with the imbued sense of irresponsibilty that was around the cult and that we all immersed ourselves in. Love, Thorin

Subject: Re: Recollections and memory From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:33:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you remember him once saying: 'All my mothers are hand-picked?' I used to think about the premie mothers who had abandoned their children or had them taken into care, or were quite honestly irresponsible parents, and think 'Duh????'

Subject: Re: Recollections and memory From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 10:47:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Liv Nope don't remember M saying that but he spouted so much drivel that I am sure I filtered that out reasonably well. :) But you do raise an important point about irresponsibility. There was a sense (still is?!) that to be irresponsible was a responsible attitude to take as it demonstrated our surrender to Maharaji. The surrender that would allow M to take care of things (not a leaf moves ...) and by his grace (sore point for you I know) our worldy cares would be solved. We could absolve ourselves of these - and greedily did. No wonder so many careers were either broken or not started. Back to children. I once was invited to help out for one week various premie children on a vacation they had at Torpoint (the Premie School that AJW started). That was a brilliant week with much love and joy. However I was struck by how so many of these children (about 30 in all at the time) had very strange attitudes, were sorely dysfunctional and simply craved to have a fair orderly structure around them. I knew many of their families, the parents of whom by and large spent their lives (and their borrowed money) trawling one M event after another. No wonder huh! Love to you Liv, Thorin

Subject: Metamorphosis From: Thorin (ex OPIE) To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 11:22:52 (EDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: Due to recent confusions with a historical poster name OP (Old Premie) and OPIE who sometimes abbreviates to OP a new phantasm Thorin is transmutated today from OPIE. +) Of tales of yore the mission of Thorin will be to find and retrieve the lost treasure that was snatched by the dragon of Malibu and bring it all back home. Thorin will continue to take lessons from braver and wiser souls with a similar path. Thorin, in fact, is not a phantasm but a real life simpleton who is known by many inhabitants of this land, the land of F7 where truth and wisdom prevail. :D Love, Thorin

Subject: Thorin Oakensheild? From: janet To: Thorin (ex OPIE) Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 06:03:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he of the Dwarves of Middle Earth?

Subject: Re: Thorin Oakensheild? From: Thorin To: janet Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 06:06:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: snap! love, Thorin

Subject: Reminds me of Noggin the Nog OT From: Moley To: Thorin (ex OPIE) Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 18:46:41 (EDT) Email Address: Moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Where are you Loafie??

Subject: There and back Again From: Loaf To: Moley Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 00:53:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here I am Moley ! Hows ya keeping ? Loafie formerly known as Ian Warburton

Subject: Re: There and back Again From: Moley To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:37:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Keepin' fine. Off to Mole and Ratty's place today - again! Catch yer next week for a cuppa? Moley formally known as Moldy Warp formerly known as Mad.

Subject: Re: Metamorphosis From: Richard To: Thorin (ex OPIE) Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:53:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And we will be thorin' to new heights together.;) Always good to see what you have to say Thorin formerly known as Opie. Richard formerly known as Postie

Subject: Prashad From: Thorin To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 04:15:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ahhh Richard who channels Postie, Postie who is infinitly realized and has merged with the void of nothing. I did in fact receive the prashad of half-eaten tofu burger that Postie in his infinite kindness sent to me at Anacapa View Drive, Malibu CA 90265. Thanks for organizing that. I have, sadly, forgotton Postie's ten-fold path to nothing and continue to be attacked by the sharks of maya. :) Love, Thorin

Subject: Re: Prashad From: Postie To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:03:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Postie is saying that he/she appreciates your attitude of gratitude and has a shark repelling mantra for you. The sharks of maya are not real, they're just part of my crazy mind. The sharks of maya are not real, they are illusion and one day I'll find. . . My ability to laugh, love and feel, the humanity I once left behind. Ho! Merely repeat the special mantra 100 times morning and night and the sharks of maya will become sacred sushi. Richard, channeling Postie the 8,000 year old co-dependent alcoholic

Subject: Re: Prashad From: Thorin To: Postie Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 15:16:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Postie Many thanks for those kind words. Of course I will now immediatly adjust my whole (hole?) life to your needs. The mantra you give truly is the fast-track to the infinite nothingness (well maybe a bit of alcohol but lets keep mum about that eh?!). My previous message to you was slightly incorrect. I said attacked by the sharks of maya. Of course I meant attracted to the sharks ... But in your infinite kindness I have no doubt (as you have removed all doubt) that you will lead me to that infinite place - a.k.a. drinking establishment! Yours in the sublime Thorin

Subject: Keeping mum From: Postie To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 16:53:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thorin, You are among the very few who have understood my words of hope for humanity and for that, I am grateful. Now, as far as keeping mum. I agree with you that the best way to keep mum happy is to give her a bit of the holy spirits on a regular basis. If GMJ had understood this delicate point, perhaps he could have kept the family together. As far being attracted to the Sharks of Maya. Postie always says, follow your perversions eerr, I mean bliss. Yours from the afterworld and this one, Postie as channeled by Richard

Subject: Psychiatric HOTLINE From: Operators standing by To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 01:45:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hotline! If you have ADD press 1 now. Hello, and welcome to the Psychiatric Hotline. If you are co-dependent, please ask someone to press 2. If you have multiple personalities, please press 3, 4, 5 and 6. If you are paranoid-delusional just remember, you don't trust me, so whatever you do don't press 7. If you have turrets stay on the line and swear at our representative. And thank you for calling the Psychiatric HOTLINE

Subject: Re: Psychiatric HOTLINE From: Patient pending To: Operators standing by Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 03:25:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear mr siykiatrist, apart from ther sixmonthly doses of darshan i have a helpless dark meaninbgless life like the people ,on this forum. In fact every five months I think of joining them in their hate and meanspirited attacks on the memories they can't let go of. then i get darshaned and get blissed out and just feel love. am i aepsecially graced or lucky? Or are thes epeople evil and they will never get joyful again except when they drink lots of wine. i don't drink or take drugs so do you think maybe i should drink at the five month period or would that make me join this group. I like them as lot but they are not like children enough for me, tghey have forgotten they had fun one time and i don't believe they have any fub in their lives at all, except stuffy aduylt conceptual intelectual sort of fun where they nod their wise heads in agreement about some irelivant thing or other. My question to you I guess is, um....

Subject: Re: Psychiatric HOTLINE From: The Foundation Leader To: Patient pending Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 11:10:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you have doubts squeeze your eyes. If you still have doubts, put your thumbs in your ears. If you still have doubts, stick your tongue into your brain. If you still have doubts, imagine I am your special friend pushing you in a swing. If you still have doubts, come to Amaroo and blow a month's income. If you still have doubts, post on a forum for my former followers and try to convince them to see the world the right way - MY WAY. If you still have doubts, just walk and shut up.

Subject: Anyone want to go to the zoo? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 18:57:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If anyone wants to see a bunch of premies acting like monkeys, take a look at Life's Great. I've been trying to have a civil discussion with a premie named Isabella but, for some reason, the monekys, er I mean premies (I just have to get that respect thing happening!) are going bananas. :)

Subject: And Double standards From: Cat To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 22:05:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You dont want us over here stuffing up your pretty little site. What gives you the right to bring your bucket of crap into our loungeroom. You got a problem with flies in the kitchen or something? It's too boring over here so you have to come over and throw your do do everywhere. Learn some manners you moron.... (PS: I have pretty well avoided this site for a long time with minmal posts so dont throw that at me.) :D

Subject: Get real From: Jim To: Cat Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 22:45:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My 'bucket of crap', as you call it, was a civil discussion which Isabella herself was more than happy to participate in. No one stops premies from same over here. Mind you, that's something that you wouldn't know because civil discussion's beyond you. Funny, isn't it, that Isabella herself said most of you guys weren't very intelligent or mature: Generally, no, [online premies generally] do not exhibit the kind of intellectual maturity and intelligence I'm proud to associate with. You sure proved her point in spades today, didn't you?

Subject: You're FULL OF SHIT From: Heller To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 00:16:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My 'bucket of crap', as you call it, was a civil discussion which Isabella herself was more than happy to participate in. BULLSHIT! You're discussion was NEVER interrupted. You were told to 'fuck off' and 'get lost' AFTER you flamed premies in the same thread at LG You, Heller, are a pathetic JOKE You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you.

Subject: Funny but that's just SUCH a lie .... From: Jim To: Heller Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 00:47:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very funny, Cat. But anyone reading the threads can see what really happened. How's the bliss, by the way? Sorry, I got so caught up in my own affairs I forgot to ask. :)

Subject: Re: Funny you are the one who lies .... From: not Cat To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 01:21:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the threads read what they do because everyone reading the board saw your sicko game and ridiculed you. unbeleivable, how silly you look lying post after post no one is stopping Isabella from answering your post. she tried to warn YOU that you wouldn't get away with it. and you didn't, deal with it jimbo poor poor jim -- too bad you are such a fool better luck next life

Subject: RU a complete moron not Cat? From: Moley To: not Cat Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 18:53:14 (EDT) Email Address: Moley@redcrow/demon.co.uk Message: Dontya know your guru has pronounced that there is no 'next life'. Keep up, won't you.

Subject: Easy, Cat, easy From: Jerry To: not Cat Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 15:43:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're losing your essense.

Subject: Get away with what? From: Gail To: not Cat Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 11:37:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Would you please explain the following: Isabel tried to warn YOU that you wouldn't get away with it and you didn't. Deal with it, Jimbo! What does this mean? What didn't he get away with? Better luck next life. What does this mean? Reincarnation? Prem Pal now says that there is no reincarnation!

Subject: Re: Get away with what? From: Catweaseel To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 14:43:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It simply means that Jim is an ignoramus who thinks he can hector ,abuse and trash the Life's Great site with impugnity.. As for the next life ,who knows; but if there is none we are are offering him nothing - Get it? We simply dont like him . Period Cheers The Cat(Who did not contribute the above(ie;Not Cat))

Subject: Re: Cat--Get away with this From: Gail To: Catweaseel Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:35:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (519) 660-6578

Subject: Next Satguru? From: Thorin To: Catweaseel Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 04:56:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat you said: As for the next life ,who knows; but if there is none we are are offering him nothing - Get it? We simply dont like him . Period I don't get this. If there is an afterlife you presumably would be in a position to offer him something, but may choose not to. However what I find intriguing is your use of the word we - who exactly are you referring to here? Do you mean yourself? If so are you the next chosen Satguru? How did this come about? Or perhaps some form of EV or PRF committee that decides who gets re-incarnated based on some vague criteria. Please clarify. Thorin

Subject: Re: Next Satguru? From: Cat To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:09:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We are the people contributing to LG.Simple . Now try being less dramatic and a little less stupid...

Subject: Thorin's got bigger cajones than OP:C) [nt] From: PatC To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 04:58:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Sorry, Cat From: Jerry To: Catweaseel Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 15:47:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Didn't see the 'not' Cat. Too bad. I thought I had a pretty good joke there about losing your essense..

Subject: With what? I'll tell you... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 14:31:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's all very simple. You see, this "Jim" person is trying to get away with asking QUESTIONS. And really, that's so mean, and rude, too. Questions have no place in The World of Knowledge. That is why Prem Rawat insists that asprirants no longer have questions about Knowledge before they can recieve His Gift. Anyone who agreed to recieve this Gift, must have agreed to no longer have questions about it. You ex-students can't just change your mind, and decide 10, 20, 30 years later, that you DO have questions after all! That's CHEATING. Catweasel simply points that out, ever so kindly, and gently. He is such a good friend to premies, and he could be such a good friend to you ex-students too, if you would just SHUT UP and LISTEN. Andrea Eriksonn :), Who, like The Master, knows that people don't need questions, they need answers. And only the right ones, that's why we need The Master. What a Friend we have in Catweasel... www.geocities.com/listen2yerheart/catweaselgoodbad.htm

Subject: Re: With what? I'll tell you... From: Bolly Shri To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:55:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for sharing that with us . some of us forget that without his grace we would just be grovelling around in our minds. I'm just off for a lobotomy any one care to join me? Love in this life and the next, Bolly

Subject: Belief is relief? From: cq To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 14:18:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Belief is relief? i.e. 'no brain, no pain?' Sounds like the aftermath of a lobotomy, no? Thinks ... Do the lobotomised know they've been lobotomised? Does a cult follower know he/she's a cult follower? Can a con-artist like the Maha afford to think of himself as a con-artist? That's it, premies - no brain, no pain!

Subject: deluded you NT From: silvia To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 15:05:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: aha

Subject: Hilarious! :) [nt] From: Jim To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 14:35:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hi Cat--You're still here From: Gail To: Cat Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 22:24:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have pretty well avoided this site for a long time with minmal posts so dont throw that at me. I have avoided this place for six and eight months at a time. Strangely enough, every time I'm here, you're here! You even posted this weekend from 'the land.' I can't believe you still believe it! How do you do it? He's not even the Lord anymore. Why hang around?

Subject: This is MY CREDO about Premies From: More Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 21:27:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I want you to know what I think about premies. :) The premies have a problem if theydon't like me. :) See, it's not me :) Why I think Premies are SCUM www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&id=7313.9945366694632

Subject: Re: Anyone want to go to the zoo? From: Jim sample from LG To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 21:15:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is an example of how civilized I was trying to be: Me trying to be sweet www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&id=5318.418563384194

Subject: Re: Anyone want to go to the zoo? From: Jim sample from LG To: Jim sample from LG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 21:19:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's me :) one post later I am always a nice guy. And YOU know it! Why don't the premies praise me the way YOU guys do? They are so stupid ~) Here's me getting nicer www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&id=13033.852473936553

Subject: Re: Anyone want to go to the zoo? From: And yet ANOTHER sample To: Jim sample from LG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 21:41:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim is having his first real discussion with a real premie can Jim get sweeter in the next posts? keep reading and see Hi, don't laugh at me, I'm still new to nice www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&id=11414.5865232903597

Subject: What is your problem? From: Jerry To: And yet ANOTHER sample Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 16:05:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Everything has to be sterile to you, doesn't it? Otherwise it's offensive. Not everybody feels that way about it, whoever you are.

Subject: You be the Baboon?;) From: Dr Doolittle To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 19:26:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You seem to like throwing your shit at the visitors?())

Subject: That's a joke From: Jim To: Dr Doolittle Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 19:52:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To the contrary, fool. I was trying to have an adult conversation with Isabella. You guys can't handle that, apparently.

Subject: Duhhh? Yes it is:)Mr Monkey Do do From: Dr Doolittle To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 21:12:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sure , that's right! And I can talk to the animals!:P

Subject: Amaroo, Day 2, Updated report from ELK From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 16:36:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Below is an updated report from ELK on Day 2 at Amaroo. An invitation to come as you are Another crystal clear, hot Queensland morning. Maharaji talked of the potential of this life and that unique, individual invitation that we have all received to experience joy, gratitude and fulfilment. As well as the thirst that propels people toward tranquillity and contentment, he explained that each one of us has an invitation to a party. But it was very important to carefully read the invitation, because there is no dress code, only the words: 'come as you are'. Of course, if you happen to have a mind filled with unanswerable memories or questions for Maharaji, 'as you are' is certainly not appropriate. 'It is about being fulfilled,' he said, ' feeling joy, being in that beautiful ocean of tranquillity, being filled with gratitude, not with fear ,nor with jealousy and anger. That's two gratitudes already now. Sounds like it's more a matter of 'come as you are, so long as its filled with gratitude, etc.' 'Not to be filled with ignorance but with Knowledge.' The path to Knowledge is the thirst we feel for it, and without it Knowledge would mean nothing. Every day, he went on, there is an invitation to 'turn within. And every day you can do that.' Come as you are so long as it's filled with gratitude and thirst ... Feeling fear is completely unnecessary, he went on. 'You don't have to live in fear. The fear is only there because of the unknown. Know that one thing that makes all the unknown insignificant and you need not feel fear... Come as you are so long as its filled with gratitude, thirst and no fear .... 'Concentrate on what is good. The gift of breath is better than all the bad things put together. So, logically you have nothing to fear. Come as you are so long as it's filled with gratitude, thirst, no fear and you're prepared to concentrate on what I tell you to... 'Those who mine the mine of breath get to keep it all. Everything that comes out - you get to keep it all - not yesterday and not tomorrow, but you get to keep that joy... Fill your bowl with that and be thankful. 'The possibility of Knowledge has been opened to you... Remember 'got to practise' reverses a trend, because up till then it is 'lose, lose, lose', but when you begin to practise it is 'gain, gain, gain'. Come as you are so long as its filled with gratitude, thirst, no fear and you're willing to concentrate on what I tell you to. Don't think about the past but taek my word for it that, until now, you've done nothing but lose, lose, lose...... YOUR UNIQUE SIGNATURE 'Get to know this breath... The way you become happy is completely unique to you. Nobody else has ever become happy that way and nobody ever will. It is your unique signature. People are different because they experience joy in a unique way. People complain that following M undermines one's individuality but did you know that everyone's breath is unique? They're like fingerprints, really. No, seriously, go look it up. .....:) So please accept the invitation. (It takes a master to remind us to accept it.) The challenge is to come as you are and that is my job to make sure that you do...' Yes, it takes a Master to remind you of something only the Master knows. But what makes a master a master to begin with? Ah, we won't ask those questions ... He described how people claim that they can gain Self-Knowledge by themselves. He likened that to kids emulating an adult's ability to read. They sit down with a book perhaps holding it upside down pretending to read, but they just make it up and no transfer of knowledge is actually happening... Again, who the HELL does this guy think he is anyway? God or something? :) He asked why search for fulfilment when it is well known where it resides - within. However, people just want to search regardless of this. Must be part of that pesky coming-as-you-are thing ... 'Come to the one who can show you and you don't need to search.' He had started the morning's talk with the analogy of a sculptor, who takes a piece of rock which already has a shape embedded into it and chips away until that beautiful form emerges. Why not just get right to the point and compare himself to God creating Adam and Eve? I see a parallel to that in my life. For that beautiful shape of tranquillity to emerge in our lives it is not a question of creating anything, but rather of taking away the unwanted bits that we don't need any more and that are hampering the existence of that which needs to be. To realise the gift we have been given does not entail fighting or winning or losing, but just allowing the beautiful shape within us to emerge in the serenity of our breath. But all along remembering to just come as you are. Of course you won't be allowed to LEAVE as you are but, well, that's what cults are for, right? The afternoon event Maharaji came out to meet us this afternoon in a large sloping field, known as Campground A. Within minutes he had somehow embued the whole scene with the feeling of having a chat with him in a comfortable living room. He talked about the new website of the Prem Rawat Foundation and how more and more material would be coming available on it. 'We are cleaning up all the wonderful stuff that has been spoken.' He explained how it is possible to take the quotes on the site and make your own individually tailored book - for yourself or friends. The overall approach he said was 'message oriented'. He was also using professional actors, who read for talking books, to voice over his own quotes. Too funny, eh? Who's he gonna get? Charleton Heston? Dame Edna? He was planning both a European and North American tour, he said. And in India he was going to choose 20 cities which he would visit every year provided they could maintain their standards of propagation and public events. There would also be a chance for new cities to come on line. Of late he had only been doing events in Amaroo, but said he wanted to start visiting Melbourne and Sydney again. Of the satellite broadcasts, he expressed that 'we have not explored the possibilities yet.' Even as a premie I thought it so strange that we spent all this time and money travelling to see him only so he could talk about his future travel plans. Something empty and circuitous about this. On the topic of telling people about Knowledge, he said: 'The most important thing is that premies have a comfort factor with Knowledge. When you have that comfort factor, propagation will happen.' Comfort covering for your many revisions of the past, etc. You're dreaming, big boy. As far as the people who spoke directly to him, it was a really big day for Gordon Day. He told Maharaji in a bold as brass Ozie way that he thought of him so much and wanted to make sure that Maharaji thought of him too. Then, he said, I figured out a way - my initials are G.D. - Gordon Day - the same as G'Day, so every time you are in Australia and greet anyone with a G'Day - you'll remember me... And what did Maharaji say: 'I do remember you. G'day.' Oh my Gawd, this is soooooo embarassing, even to read! Saying that to Maharaji required being 'bold as brass'??! PUKE! And fawning all slithery-like over Maharaji's nothing answer??! PUKE AGAIN! A person from Israel put it to Maharaji that Knowledge could help bring peace in the war zone that is now the Middle East. The reply: 'You give me too much credit. They have been going at it since way back when... People need to understand that there really is a bigger sense of purpose in this life... People fight because they legitimise it. In our rationalisations we have picked ourselves clean. We have created causes that are 'greater than human life'. The balance has been upset and gets more and more upset.' This was the guy who declared he'd establish peace in the world, the father who couldn't stand to watch his children crawling to the fire ... A woman talked to him about giving up hope. And he responded with passion and encouragement: 'You cannot give up on hope. Hope is a gift, we have been given. Hope makes us look for Knowledge. Hope makes aspirants look for Knowledge. Hope will allow them to receive Knowledge... Hope makes you practise every day... Hope is in the seed and that is what wants to grow.' Empty bullshit. Hopefully (no pun intended) this woman won't be among them but, really, how many premies over the years also 'lost hope' and hurt or killed themselves as a result? Passion, my ass! He left us all with the hope that tomorrow he would bring us more of the same. Sorry I missed it.

Subject: Re: Amaroo, Day 2, Updated report from ELK From: Happie Frenchie To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 16:17:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, Jim Geez, reading that much inanities in one single post (I'm talking about the update from Amaroo, not your comments of course !) made me sick ! Truly, you have to brainwashed to a pulp to stand this empty hogwash coming out of Rawat's mouth ! Same old shit. The more I read, the more I congratulate myself for having stepped out of this stupid trap leading to nowhere. I'm amazed that he never comes out with anything new to say, and that people can listen to him for 30 years and still be in awe of that emptiness that passes for wisdom. I've had more interesting revelations while reading the back of a cereal box. Such cheapo-sleazo rethorics. And people are buying it... When will they wake up and smell the coffee -- or the rat, in this instance ? Best regards, HF

Subject: The theory of guaranteed followers From: Sir Dave To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 22:14:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am flabbergasted and amazed that people enjoy going to listen to this drivel. I now think my ''theory of guaranteed followers'' is now proven beyond all doubt. The theory goes like this: Whatever trip someone plugs to the masses, there'll always be some people who will think it's the best thing since sliced bread and follow that trip and enjoy it. It's a guaranteed statistical phenominon. If there are enough people who hear the message, there'll always be some people somewhere who get into the trip. I find Prem Rat's words to be empty, hypocritical and repugnant and his philosphy the same. However, some people lap it up as if he's handing out something magical. Such people are beyond my comprehension and might as well come from Mars, for all I can relate to them.

Subject: I'm Going Back to Maharaji...umm..Prem... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 18:07:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was superb Jim. I laughed so much I pictured all of us regulars sitting in the audience and laughing in all the 'wrong' places...LOL! You nailed this one good! Love, Cynth

Subject: Re: I'm Going Back to Maharaji...umm..Prem... From: Ken Fletcher To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 19:37:33 (EDT) Email Address: kences@nobbys.net.au Message: That was superb Jim. I laughed so much I pictured all of us regulars sitting in the audience and laughing in all the 'wrong' places...LOL! You nailed this one good! Love, Cynth --- Cynthia, please write, regards going back to Maharaji

Subject: Don't worry Ken... From: Cynthia To: Ken Fletcher Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:59:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You couldn't drag me within 100 feet of him. Unless, of course I was guaranteed some answers! Best, Cynthia

Subject: Re: I'm Going Back to Maharaji...umm..Prem... From: JHB To: Ken Fletcher Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 03:06:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ken, I'm pretty certain Cynthia was joking in the subject line. BTW, weclome to the forum! John.

Subject: Re: I'm Going Back to Maharaji...umm..Prem... From: Bolly Shri To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 11:21:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm coming with you sister, sounds amazing this stuff. Who would have had the insight to come up with such an amazing thing? Just remind me now it's breathing right? Like air goes into your lungs and air is expelled. What a guy . Can't wait to kiss those tootsies

Subject: Re: I'm Going Back to Maharaji...umm..Prem... From: Cynthia To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 11:55:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bolly, Sure, the more the merrier! I am so particularly, like, grateful to Prem Rawat for setting up that new Foundation. It really brings that experience right back to me! And the Leaders article clarified so much of my nasty mind's confusion. And I am humbled before his holy lotus feet. I alwaysk new he's get around to changing things so premies would be oh so much clearer about him and his great mission. Prem. It's so like him, to, like, you know, um, get intimate with his PWKs. I giggle just thinking of the intimacy. Prem. Not Prem Pal, just the simple ''Prem.'' Oh he's just so like, humble. The Prem I love www.lileks.com/institute/gallery/ads/prem.html

Subject: Re: I'm Going Back to Maharaji...umm..Prem... From: Bolly Shri To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 11:21:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm coming with you sister, sounds amazing this stuff. Who would have had the insight to come up with such an amazing thing? Just remind me now it's breathing right? Like air goes into your lungs and air is expelled. What a guy . Can't wait to kiss those tootsies

Subject: Well, Jim, you've done some brilliant posts.. From: Nigel To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 17:31:48 (EDT) Email Address: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: But then you do this one. I guess we all have our off-days..;-) No, seriously this is one of those *****BEST***** type thingies, I reckon. And let us not overlook the import of this fragment: He described how people claim that they can gain Self-Knowledge by themselves. He likened that to kids emulating an adult's ability to read. They sit down with a book perhaps holding it upside down pretending to read, but they just make it up and no transfer of knowledge is actually happening... In one brief paragraph he does the full I-am-the-uniquely-appointed-magical-juju-giver stuff... Like it's yesterday once more. I bet the premies' heads are spinning right now trying to marry up the Prem Rawat Self-Knowledge Foundation shite with this unambiguous messianic pretense. Hmm, Who IS Guru Maharaji..?

Subject: Thanks, Jim for reports from trenches From: PatC To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 20:38:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''He described how people claim that they can gain Self-Knowledge by themselves. He likened that to kids emulating an adult's ability to read. They sit down with a book perhaps holding it upside down pretending to read, but they just make it up and no transfer of knowledge is actually happening...'' Yes, that bit is so obviously the revised version of the newly evolved and re-invented Prem Rawat's former Maharajism: ''Only the master can save you from the spider's web.'' Well, I suppose it is progress - from imaginary spider-webs to kids playing at reading. Maybe the California sunshine is finally chasing his Hindu cobwebs away. Nah - they're just designer cobwebs now. As Matilda Johnson says in the classics: ''Who DOES he think he be?''

Subject: Re: Well, Jim, you've done some brilliant posts.. From: AV To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 17:58:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They sit down with a book perhaps holding it upside down pretending to read, but they just make it up and no transfer of knowledge is actually happening... very very very simple question....... how do you transfer something that's already 'within inside of you'?????? please??????

Subject: for Goober's voice overs... [nt] From: I vote Julia Childs To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 17:03:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: for Goober's voice overs... [nt] From: I vote Homer Simpson To: I vote Julia Childs Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 06:09:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Julia Childs, Dame Edna, what's the diff? [nt] From: Jim To: I vote Julia Childs Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 18:30:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Julia's sexier [nt] From: Julia's Fan To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 20:37:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: ExCUSE me??! From: Jim To: Julia's Fan Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 20:47:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Julia Child is downright dowdy, dude. Like she has no figure to speak of, she's just so big. No, it's Dame Edna hands down! Dame Edna up close and personal www.xs4all.nl/~alife/dameedna.htm

Subject: But what about Evita Bezuidenhout?... From: Chuck S. To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 13:24:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... she has better legs. South Africa's most famous white woman... www.evita.co.za/

Subject: Re: for Goober's voice overs... From: Nah, Lisa Simpson To: I vote Julia Childs Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 17:06:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Ahhhhh, feet! [nt] From: Homer To: Nah, Lisa Simpson Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 06:29:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: eeexxelent, Smithers.... From: Montyanand To: Homer Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 07:23:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Amaroo, Day 2, Updated report from ELK From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 16:56:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NOW I get it, we come as we are, providing 'as we are' fits a speciful check list of criteria to hear M talk about how we have an opportunity to come and hear him talk about the next time we can come as we are to hear hime talk about the next time we can come as we are to hear him him talk about.....

Subject: Re: Amaroo, Day 2, Updated report from ELK From: Gail To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 16:52:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks! For a second I felt a little wistful. Geez, what we missed out on this weekend! Do you think Prem would take me back or is the dower is open?

Subject: Questions to JM concerning French forum From: Will To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 16:22:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: JM, I've seen on ELK that Maharaji is again planning a tour of Europe this year. If he visits France, it will be very interesting. How is the anti-cult movement developing there? Also, any comments on the recent win by the extreme right in your presidental run-off election? Aussi, une question un peu sensible, peut-etre: en lisant le forum Francais, je n'ai pas compris un post par les Argants. C'est vrai leur problems a la maison and au travail? Est-ce que ce sont les resultats du movement anti-cult? Expliquez cette histoire en Anglais ici, si ce n'est pas trop personnel. Merci.

Subject: Re: Questions to JM concerning French forum From: Jean-Michel To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 05:10:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How is the anti-cult movement developing there? I wouldn't say there is so much of an 'anti-cult' movement here. I'd say that authorities (all political sides includes) are very much concerned about this threat to democracy, and that cults are carefully monitored. The press usually covers most incidents related to cults, and I'm glad to announce a new article in the latest issue of the Combat magazine (April 2002) about EV. The whole article should be online any time on their website: Combat Issue #27 ENQUETE - La secte Elan Vital : banale entreprise de méditation ? Gilles Alfonsi - Jean-Michel Kahn Au service du gourou Maharaji, la branche française de la secte Elan Vital tisse méticuleusement sa toile, dans une totale discrétion. Révélations sur ses forces actuelles, son organisation interne et son mode de fonctionnement. I don't know if Rawat intends to play guru in France next time he comes to Europe, I'd be a bit careful if I'd be him: he might again have the police on his tail, and the media waiting for him. Also, any comments on the recent win by the extreme right in your presidental run-off election? There is absolutely no chance for Le Pen to win, but the situation is very interesting in the sense that lots of people had lost any interest in elections and political issues, and that's a good shake for them I guess. The situation is also the result of the lack of courage and responsibility of most politicians here. About the Argant posting on the French forum: why don't you talk to them ? She's an English teacher. But I doubt you'll understand more than I do. They definitely have a problem, but not related to m&k IMO.

Subject: Re: Questions: to will: French From: janet To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 04:32:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Je me suis croix que la source des problems des Argents, au moins comme ils des pensent, sont imaginaire. J'avias parlé avec l'un, et l'autre, et enfin, je pense qu'ils avaient créée un idée 'paranoid' en regard de leur situation domestique. Bien: peut-etre il y un soupçon de verité a l'influence de le loi nouveau, et des gens locales les associent avec les 'cults', mais j'avais conclu qu'il n'y a rien que nous pouvons faire pour lui. Ils ne pensent pas de leurs habites, ou leur coutoumes étranges, en contrate aux autres. Je me pense qu'il y a beaucoup des raisons pour quoi ils sont en reçevant de çes evenements. Si tu es dans un 'cult'--alors!-- c'est evident, a tous le monde--sauve pour toi! Oui? C'est vrai? C'est vrai. janet pardonnez mes erreurs avec le 'keyboard americain' sans accents.

Subject: Re: Questions: to will: French From: Jean-Michel To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 05:15:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is also my opinion. They're seriously paranoid, and worsen their problems and situation because of this. Instead of being able to seek and find help from skilled professionals, they alienate themselves when they link their problems with their involvement in EV and an imaginary hassle by 'anti-cultists'.

Subject: Paranoia From: Jean-Michel To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 05:23:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It just happens that I have clients who are jews. They have big problems with their neigbours because of their cats that they let run wild in other peoples' properties. Instead of dealing with this simple problem, they think that people are 'against' them because they are jews, and because they are racists. They're in such a paranoid state you can't imagine. They intend to emigrate to Israel (with their cats), thinking they'll find peace there ! I doubt it.

Subject: Re: jewish cats From: Happie Frenchie To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 16:00:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are they gonna have to circumcise their kitties ? Bisous HF

Subject: Re: jewish cats From: Jean-Michel To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 16:39:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess so. They didn't allow me to castrate them !!!!!

Subject: Je voudrais savoir l'adresse URL? (nt) From: Forum en français? To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 10:29:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Je voudrais savoir l'adresse URL? (nt) From: Jean-Michel To: Forum en français? Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 10:56:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: La voilà !! Le forum francophone !

Subject: L'URL du forum grenouille From: Jean-Michel To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 10:57:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Le forum

Subject: pour les deux, J-M! (nt) From: Merci beaucoup... To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:21:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: pour les deux, J-M! (nt) From: Merci beaucoup... To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:21:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Please respond: Did you believe PREM was From: Gail To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 16:20:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1. omnicient, omnipotent and omnipresent at any point in your affiliation with his organization? 2. Did you think he could snuff you out as quick as a wink? 3. Did you believe he was the superior power in person? 'There is no shame in taking a human body. Even the creator takes a human body.' 4. Did you believe him when he said he had to be careful when he danced. When he raised his arms worlds were created and when he lowered them, worlds were destroyed. PLEASE TELL ME IF YOU BELIEVED THIS STUFF. Am I the only stupid sap who believed these lies?

Subject: Re: Please respond: Did you believe PREM was From: Inside Edition To: Gail Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 00:07:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Absolutely! That's what I was looking for and that is exactly how it was sold to me, by Rawat and his mahatmas (circa 1973). That is also what the 'true devotees' believe today. I KNOW - I was one of them!

Subject: Long thread - no premies... From: Nigel To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 20:04:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..interesting. (if you discount DR's non-answer lower down) You would think this kind of question right up their alleyway going, as it does, right to the heart of their whole worldview and belief system. Exes - though possibly embarrassed - are happy enough to come clean about what they believed when instructed to by Rawat. Premies it would appear feel somehow uncomfortable with the question. Could it be they are also embarrassed because it is what they STILL believe? Alternatively, they no longer believe the omni-everything line, but haven't come up with a coherent alternative framework for explaining their ongoing devotion. Here is one thread where Mili's, CD's and Cat's input would actually be welcome - if they answered honestly. But where are they?

Subject: You are not alone From: PatD To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 15:28:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's something I wrote for my own amusement ages ago when I was trying to get faster at typing, & trying to remember those long ago days when God Incarnate first put His feet on England's green & pleasant. I never posted it,but this thread seems like the right place. Coming out of the Palace o’ peace one evening I bumped into an old friend, ‘S’, a guy I’d known since we were at school together and who had jumped into the whole trip feet first whereas I was much more hesitant(and full of guilt as a consequence). He was in the WPC by then and I hardly ever saw him. Sharp suit,blissfully pink,no time for more than half a minute of chit-chat before the imperative of satsang kicked in.Then he got buttonholed by some bigger cheese for a minute or so. He comes back, ‘ I’m under agya , got to go directly to the residence,but there’re no cars available, here’s your service for tonight, gimmee a lift.’ We set off blissfully . Then he says ‘I can probably get you in.’ Wow, grace has descended on me, the divine is finally calling me to his side. Going up Park Lane Mind started to set in badly. What exactly is the etiquette for meeting God in his own house. What do I do if he offers me a cup of tea. Is it possible to have a normal conversation with someone who can read your thoughts and so on and so forth. I tried to start an oblique line of questions, but just got back satsang and ‘you’ll be alright’. Getting closer and unease was turning to fear. He’d know of course that I’d refused to kiss his feet after the K session, he’d know I still smoked the odd cigarette & had a pint or two with non premies.Coming up to the turn into Woodside Ave ‘S’ had gone into a holyname coma when the sky was suddenly lit up with vivid blue flashes . Had to be a sign .I nearly died. We park and I feel like I’m in a dream , one of those really bad ones where you can’t get away from what’s chasing you because you’re moving in slo-mo. The house was guarded by 4 or 5 guys and in the driveway someone was welding bits of a car chassis, that explained the blue light, but then it was through a set of french windows into a room with about 10 people in it ,all sitting bolt upright deep in meditation. I just knew that God would come in there for a spot of satsang before turning in for the night & that the odds that he would ask me to give it were horribly short. I couldn’t give satsang at the drop of a hat at the best of times…..but in front of the one who could read my soul, who would know that part of me regarded him as a horrible little cunt despite valiant efforts at suppression. No, it was too much, I was on the point of a nervous breakdown. I tried meditating but it didn’t seem to be working when the door opened and there he was accompanied by 3 blissful goons. My mind briefly wondered why anyone needed bodyguards to keep them company around their own house but I shut that down pretty quick . The relief, he was laying into some German guy for having followed him to London despite having been told not to. Then he split. I got out of there past the guys still welding. Mind felt sorry for the neighbours. Found a pub that seemed full of light & chatter even though it was really dark and smoky. I was anonymous again. A total stranger in a shabby suit said ‘ alright lad’ and walked on not expecting a response. Normal again…but that wasn’t good enough, one had to rise above the mundane, normal was maya, I’d blown it again with God. I’d sinned against the Golden Doughnut. I should’ve been under a blanket looking at GMJ within......

Subject: phew!! From: AV To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 19:29:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Please respond: Did you believe PREM was From: Bolly Shri To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 11:32:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You mean it's not? Beleif is a funny thing. I'm sure I took it on trust, as I find it hard to believe people are lying deliberately. Even thirty years down the line i'm often shocked at how gullible I am. Love to all

Subject: Good questions From: Richard To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 11:29:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee, I had to think about this awhile. Very difficult to say these 30 years on. 1. I'm sure I entered the road company of SatGuru Has Come with some notion of GMJ's all-knowingness. A personified blend, if you will, of Stranger In A Strange Land, Christian mythology, Autobiography of a Yogi, Be Here Now and Siddhartha. Having primed the JuJu pump with psychotropic drugs, for sure I was not exactly approaching the subject matter in a scholarly manner. More like, Far out man, acid is dead. Long live the Sat Guru! Bow-legged trees, sack o' rude doves, etc. 2. No. 3. Vaguely, I suppose. See #1. 4. No. By that phase, I had been around M enough to view him as just a VSPWLOBJ - Very Special Person With Lots Of Bhakti Juju. I got over it though. ;)

Subject: Okay, here's mine From: Tonette To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 11:08:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1. Briefly but with a heafty dose of doubt. So I guess that means not entirely. Do these have to be yes/no answers BTY? 2. Nope. I heard premies lament on this subject in sat sang often although I wasn't present when M dropped this little bombshell, thankfully. 3. Nope. Although I had great personal admiration for him. I even speculated that he might be a genius. Now how ridiculous is that? Just as ridiculous as thinking he was 'the superior power in person' certainly. 4. Nope. And I remember hearing him say that. I do know that it sure put me in my mind though. I thought I was going nuts. Guess I was nuts not to exit immediately. Gail you know about cults now. We were all saps and we were all prisoners of Maharaji's little world. I'm more embarrassed than anything frankly. Take care, Warmly, Tonette

Subject: The four questions... From: Chuck S. To: Tonette Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 13:53:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I too would have to say 'no' to all four, although I might have entertained #1 when I was really stoned ()). But I didn't get the heavy ju-ju of the 70's, I got Knowledge Lite in the eary 80's. Maharaji was presented as this wonderful teacher who just showed you how to be aware of something you already had. Knowedge was pitched like a beer commercial, "Try it, you'll like it". I got sucked in by the simplicity of it all, plus the Haight-Ashbury premies were such fun to be with. I was told by M's instuctors to not listen to (take seriously) the "Hippy Premies", who were so poetical and colorful in the way they talked about Maharaji. Knowedge was much simpler than all that. I got sucked in by the simplicity, and the premies. It all seemed so harmless. But then over the years the "teacher" became The Master, and the Knowledge we all supposedly already had became His Gift, which only he could give. All this creepy stuff seemed to be creeping in, stuff I never agreed to when I got K. There was always something going on that seemed to be unspoken, and towards the end, when I got involved in Participation and Propagation, I saw a big difference between M&K as presented to aspirants (the version I related to the most) and M&K as regarded by the 70's premies, and the way Maharaji talked about Himself and K. in the color coded videos that were for premies with That Understanding. It seemed like two different versions, and the first was just a stepping stone to the 2nd. When I was finally able to put all the pieces together... well, I agree with you, Tonette. Embarrased is the word that best describes what I feel.

Subject: I got knowledge in September 1976 From: Tonette To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 03:17:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I was in the aspirant phase late spring and summer 1976 I was not exposed to the Lord of the Universe crap. The premies I knew, loved and lived with in Annapolis, MD were pretty low key. There were 7 of them and three of us aspirants. Mostly we lived quite harmoniously with each other. The premies were loving and kind. Needless to say it was not an ashram nor did it aspire to be one. It was a premie house and a fairly relaxed one at that. Satsang was informal to say the least, mostly it was us asking what Knowledge was like. Did the premies sing arti? Nope. Did they meditate? Yes, they did. Service? Well since we were the community, us 10, mostly they sent money when they could. Very little devotional stuff was displayed outwardly and satsang was not the fire and brimstone variety. There was a framed (8x10) list of the commandements which had a small picture of M pasted at the top sitting on the mantel of the fireplace. That's it, one picture of M and a somewhat innoculous one at that. This was the time period right after Mischler resigned and the program I went to in Rhode Island that summer was quite reserved compared to the festivals that were to follow. There was darshan of course which took all of about two hours to do since it was such a small (one day) program. I went thru darshan at that program. Thought I'd see what all the hype was about. At that time aspirants could go thru darshan. So, I thought I'd experiment and see what happened if I did pay my respects. I wasn't going to kiss his feet, no way, that's wierd, I was just going to bow and place my head on his feet, that in and of itself was wierd enough to me. But the goons who man the darshan line were quickly moving it along so I actually never touched him. Darshan was always like that, you got exactly 1.5 seconds in front of the master. Ever notice how M never looked at the person actually before him? Maharaji would almost always be looking at the people approaching him. Anyway, that's how I got sucked into the cult. Knowledge, I thought, was a meditation that showed you your inner energy, your soul perhaps, would allow one to evolve spiritually. By January 1977, the heavy devotional trip returned, full force, and more deadly than ever. And I remember wondering, what exactly have I gotten myself into. Cults are insidious, you don't realized you are innoculated, you don't realize that your thinking has changed, you don't realize your behavior, outlook, and even your speech has changed until it's too fucking late. And how much awareness was there late 1970's as to what exactly is a cult? And exactly how much ability would an 18 year old girl have in recognizing that the Guru might actually be a real con? No, we are all prime for the picking. Aw well, what the hell. Life has gone on for me and I enjoyed very much your story to me. Thanks! Fondly, Tonette

Subject: The insidiousness of cults... From: Chuck S. To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 15:03:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've often heard premies talk about 1976 as being a wonderful year to be a premie, sort of like a "Prague Spring" in the world of Premiedom. Living in a house with premie friends who weren't fanatics could be very nice, I'm sure. The premies I knew in the Haight-Ashbury where I got K were mostly not fanatics either, they were politically incorrect and irreverent about any of the religious aspects of M&K. At any satsang gatherings, if the talk turned to money they would disperse very quickly. I wish I had picked that up from them. ;) But you are so right about not realizing you are being sucked into a cult. It's as if you open the door to let in one thing, but all this other stuff squeezes it's way in, without you even realizing it. I remember reading about cults prior to becoming involved with M&K. I didn't undertand how anyone could be so "stupid" as to become involved with a cult. I believed that certainly, that would never happen to ME, I could not possibly be in a cult. No way! ()) I hadn't realized how subtle cults could be. Say "cult" and everyone thinks of Jim Jones, but his cult was very extream. Yet because of the secrecy, it florished for years (began in the 1950's), and wasn't widely recognized as a cult until after the Jonestown tradgedy. Even when Jones had been exposed in the media in San Francisco (pre-Jonestown), many people had refused to believe it. The Peoples Temple had done so much GOOD in the community; it was a member of the Association of Methodist Churches. How could it be dangerous? Premies naturally compare that cult with what they are experiencing, and of course take comfort in the many differences. I know I did. But Jones was CRAZY. A truely "successful" cult doesn't kill it's members! I sincerly doubt that Scientology, the cult with popular movie star members, is going to end in anything like Jonestown. But does that mean they don't lie, keep secrets, bilk people out of money, and otherwise abuse their power over their members? Of course not. And it's the same for Rawats gig. A cult doesn't have to be "just like" Peoples Temple, in order to abuse it's power and decieve and hurt people. Cult members don't have to be stupid or creepy, they can be perfectly nice, intellegent people. Reading up on cults generally, from sources other than EPO, helped me to understand all this, but accepting the realization still took time; it wasn't what I wanted to hear. I didn't WANT to be involved with a cult, in any way, shape or form! I kept looking for evidence that it WASN'T true! If I had become more heavily involved with Participation and Propagation, like I did before I left, I might have smelled the coffee and left sooner, but being on the fringe for so many years, it was easy to be duped. Admitting that I HAD been duped, was hard. I didn't WANT it to be true, so I resisted it for two years. But eventually it just became easier to not resist it. The excuse making and mental backflips were becoming more tiring than just owning up to the fact that I had been decieved; it was just easier to bite the bullet and admit it. That was unpleasant, but of course now I'm glad it's over with. I feel like I've claimed a part of myself back, and stopped allowing myself to be cynically used, while still honoring the feelings that made me interested in M&K in the first place. I feel more whole, more like myself, and that makes it easier to enjoy life, without struggling.

Subject: ARe you serious? From: Jim To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 17:50:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've often heard premies talk about 1976 as being a wonderful year to be a premie, sort of like a 'Prague Spring' in the world of Premiedom. Chuck, you got k in the early 80s, right? And this is how they were referring to '76 already? Too much! In the couple of years starting late '76 (at the international coordinators meeting in Essen, Germany, to be exact, where Maharaji completely reinstated a Thousand Days of Over-the-Top Devotion) we denounced '76 with unmitigated dispatch. We were like chinese dissing the cultural revolution. Well, as we've seen, the winds have blown this way and that and back again in this cult. Crazy.

Subject: Did I say 'Premies'...? From: Chuck S. To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 04:08:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think that should have been: I've often heard ex-premies talk about 1976 as being a wonderful year to be a premie, sort of like a 'Prague Spring' in the world of Premiedom. Just forgot to type that prefix. Actually, I never heard much about the heavy devotional stuff from premies at all. The only stories I heard about from the seventies were about bliss, Dugaji and M's Marriage, bliss, Darshan stories, bliss, cute Indian stories, bliss, wonderful festivals, bliss, yadda yadda yadda. And all mixed up with tarot cards, astrology, pshycic new-age fun and nonsense. And it all made sense, especially if you were stoned. ()) That was the Haight in the early 80's.

Subject: You forgot to mention....... From: PatC To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 04:58:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ............my ''fireworks'' satsang! :C)

Subject: Re: The four questions... From: Richard To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 15:25:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I saw a big difference between M&K as presented to aspirants (the version I related to the most) and M&K as regarded by the 70's premies, and the way Maharaji talked about Himself and K. I really relate to that Chuck. I had left M&K for 6 or 7 years when I attended an intro event with M in Seattle in the mid-90's. It was soooo simple and I thought 'Oh, yeah this is what I came for in '72.' Then there was a K review with M and I really enjoyed it. So M had left all the worship stuff behind and was finally being just a teacher. Next comes Long Beach and I was totally floored. I thought it was soooo simple and all about my personal experience. So what's with the Divine Mall, instrumental Arti and other devotional songs from 70's - 80's, and those weird slo-mo Bhakti porno videos featuring M and a pulsing trance beat? Oh, I get it - the old bait-n-switch routine. I asked friends 'What's with the big D (devotion) again?' The replies were vague mumbles so that was it for me. I would have had no problem at all continuing with M&K and sending friends to check it out but it all seemed so dishonest so I walked again. Yeah, I gave K a chance. Two chances in fact.

Subject: Double messages and dishonesty...... From: Chuck S. To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 16:49:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're exactly right, Richard. In the end, it was the dishonesty surrounding the whole thing that made me feel tainted, and forced to make a choice. While some of what I experienced with M&K was enjoyable, there were far too many mixed messages, and seeing how it was being deliberately perpetuated was too creepy. Admitting that I'd become involved with a cult was really hard, and unpleasant too, but undertanding what happened, how it happend, and how it was continuing, helped me untangle myself, while still honoring the positive feelings I had that attracted me to it and kept me in it's orbit for years. Enjoying life IS a worthy goal, but now I can do that in more positive ways, without having to hide from ugly facts, make absurd excuses, or compromise honesty. Life is even more enjoyable with your integrity intact, too.

Subject: Re: Please respond: Did you believe PREM was From: Livia To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 09:52:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I believed it all, every single last bit of it, for 30 years. Didn't we all? Love, Livia

Subject: to LIVIA From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 13:17:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or if you didn't you felt so overwhelmingly compelled to do so, you would set about destroying that mind, those doubts etc.....do you remember ' better a bullet in your head than a doubt in your mind'......wish I'd remembered that when Caution was posting. Love AV

Subject: In general, yes. From: Bryn To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 04:53:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not as specific as to the arms up and down thing. I certainly thought his 'dancing' was significant on an occult level. But yes indeed I thought he was some kind of exceptional 'incarnation'. The whole idea was never directly addressed and fed on vagueness. He was a 'Master' to me whatever that was. Pathetic. Love Bryn

Subject: i did. for years. [nt] From: janet To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 04:34:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I did From: Susan To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 01:43:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: though I do admit having trouble with Mr. mind over it all...but I was told in my K session mind would cause doubt, and they were right! I had a terrible awful mind that plagued me with terrible awful doubts that only satsang service and meditation had a chance of relieving me from.

Subject: Yes,no,Oh yes and variation of From: Moley To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 20:58:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Definitely Yes to no 1 As for no 2 - Well I thought he would never sniff me out (oops,typo, I mean 'snuff') as I was his devotee doomed (with hindsight) to endlessly reincarnate as such. Yes to no 3. As for no 4: Well I believed that when he danced he was Krishna and I was Rada (or however you spell it)... i.e. he 'manifested' himself to each of us individually as our own personal Krishna. (Gawd, how daft does that lot look when written down!)

Subject: Yes, no, yes and maybe From: PatC To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 20:12:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I only believed number four when I was high as a kite dancing with him in Kissimee but I did believe that very powerful juju flowed from his hands when he ''blessed'' us just before leaving the stage. I also believed he could see right into my soul when I went through darshan. BTW I never thought of number two (snuffing us out) because he was after all all merciful and compassionate and overflowing with selfless kindness. Yes, and contrary to what we think - he actually hates being obscenely rich - it's a horrible burden that he has to bear.:C)

Subject: Re: Please respond: Did you believe PREM was From: ok I will To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 20:04:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you're the only stupid sap I know who believed your own fears what an complete idiot

Subject: Roupell the rule is stick to one handle [nt] From: PatC To: ok I will Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 20:17:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: ionlylivetobreakrulesyouknowthat From: Llepour To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 20:22:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: howarya pat? I saw some friends of yours last weekend. hope to see your smiling face next time

Subject: Thanks, David - but stick to one handle From: PatC To: Llepour Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 20:49:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ESPECIALLY YOU! The worst multiple alias culprit in the annals of the ex-premie forums. In fact you are so clever and tricky that you can even write backwards. I'm fine thanks, David. How are you? Who'd you see? Do you think they would still want to be friends with me? Nah, I'll never go to see Rev Rawat again. You know I never really liked him. I liked Special K and tolerated him until I no longer could or needed to. Now, play fair - stick to one handle, DR. If you want to write a parody or something under another name - fine - but don't take digs at people anonymously, please. It's just not nice or kind.

Subject: Oh yeah, Mr. Bad Grammar Coward?? From: Jim To: ok I will Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 20:13:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What did YOU believe? Care to admit any of it? Or were you one of the many, many premies who were just waiting in the seventies for the Prem Rawat Foundation?

Subject: Gail, are you nuts? From: Jim To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 19:19:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You actually believed that stuff? You must have been the only one. You haven't told anyone this, have you? Holy cow ....

Subject: Re: Gail, are you nuts? From: Gail To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 11:46:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know, I know! They're coming to take me away ha ha, he he, ho ho, to the land where life is beautiful all day long ... So much for sanity, eh? I loved your post, Jim!

Subject: OMG, I still can't read your post Jim From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 10:52:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: without laughing out loud. I've been chuckling every time I think of your twist. It's too funny. Thanks, Tonette

Subject: Okay... From: Cynthia To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 18:16:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1. Of course, silly! Yes|D 2. Any time he wanted. Yes~) 3. I thought Guru Maharaji Ji was greater than all past masters had been. He was not the 'son' of God. He was the embodiment of GOD. Yes.:) 4. I loved when he danced. What's the emoticon for extreme embarrassment? One thing he used to do that made me even more programmed as a gopi was when he left the stage (regardless of his attire) he would waive his hands palms out to the premies which I was told meant he was 'blessing' us. YES

Subject: Well, actually... From: Nigel To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 17:45:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (1) YES (2) YES (3) YES (4) YES... well sort of - if I could first make sure he actually said that, but if he did then, sure, yes - WOW - of COURSE I believed it. So did Catweasel. We were supposed to believe him, no? What's the point of having a Master if you can't trust a word the fucker says? Nige Longhurst (BSc first-class Liverpool..!)

Subject: Revisionism From: Lesley To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 17:28:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess you know the answer to your own question, of course you are not the only one, I might have missed the one about him having to be careful how he waved his arms, but I got the one about 'the problem you have is because you are not connected to God, I have a way to make that connection.' Belief is not just a question of a person's stated opinion. It seems to me that some people decide, when the water has gone cold, to just refill the bathwater, and they never get around to looking at the baby and making a decision whether to chuck it or not. More fool them, we're not the ones still kissing Prem Rawat's feet.

Subject: Special Offer!!! From: Not Spam To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 11:32:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: New Product! Now available for all premies who are in the process of exiting! Have you recently been to Amaroo? Have you gone through the darshan line? Are you slowly coming to the conclusion that the lotus feet are in fact swamp feet? Are you wiping your lips frantically trying to get off the smell of guru-feet-stink? Not to worry! We have developed a new product that is designed exactly for the purpose of removing guru-feet-stink. Apply our lotion once a day for a few days and voila, no more swamp stink. Can also be apply to foreheads and hands and any other body parts which may have come into contact with the fake lotus feet. Once you have erased all smell from yourself you will be able to return to normal society without fear of offending your fellow man (or woman). Your lips will be free to kiss more appropriate objects. If you act now, we will also send, free of charge, our unique herbal formula for counteracting all the long-term effects of charanumvrit and prashad. Cleanse yourself of the guru once and for all!!!!! Awake refreshed and alive, ready for a new day.

Subject: I'll need my cut, of course From: gerry To: Not Spam Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 11:55:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I smell a winner! I applaud your entreprenaurial spirit and will only be kindly requesting a judicious ten percent...

Subject: Ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-changes... From: Gregg To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 10:31:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (Talkin' about my g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-generation) The hallmarks of cults have been extensively documented here - the doubt-squelching, the 'specialness' of the Knowledge, the us-vs.-them mentality, the guilt-tripping, the fundraising, the heavy personal investment, and, of course, the charismatic (!?!) leader. Here's another one for the books which you can observe in most of the contemporary cults: they are always implementing changes which are perceived (as everything about the cult is to the members) as extraordinarily significant. Look at Da Free John, who changes his name as often as his underwear. When this nasty enlightened mess of bad habits went to the hospital with a heart attack/panic attack, it was reframed as yet another 'teaching event.' Or how about the seriously zany L. Ron Hubbard, with his peripatetic yachtmanship, getting kicked out of port after port until he followed Ambrose Bierce and Judge Crater into a mysterious death. And all this imbued with saintly significance by his many devoted tin-can-grabbing bootlickers. And then there's Rajneesh - oh, sorry, Osho - who made the India-to-AmeriDollar move later in his career than most Hindus, only to devolve into some of the weirdest cultmania in recent memory. Every word, motion and Rolls-Royce of his was Cosmically Significant to his sannyasins, of course. And now we come to Maharaji. Knowledge is secondary to the dynamics of the cult, of course. Everybody knows that the four magical techniques are just four among thousands of medition techniques available to anyone with an Internet connection or a library card. If Maharaji decided to teach TM-style mantra meditation instead, the dynamics of the cult would be unchanged. The single important thing that keeps people involved with the path of 'self-knowledge' is that they believe Prem Pal Rawat is a magical being who personally intervenes in their spiritual life. Of course, this simplistic fantasy gets old after a while, hence all the changes. All the changes in propagation methodology, devotional trappings, names of the guru, and, especially, the all-important festivals serve the purpose of keeping the faithful interested. This recent interactivity is the latest fad, and certainly an interesting one to us cult-watchers. From our point of view it is more than a little pathetic. (PWK states her unwavering gushy servitude, M makes small-talk jest). I mean, this is all about spiritual growth, yet devotees are forbidden to ask questions about spiritual growth? How weird is that?! But to his followers, still kissing his tootsies after all these years, this new twist to an old story is truly thrilling. To them (and remember, we used to be 'them!') it is the manifestation of the Master in their lives, not a last ditch effort to keep a healthy cash flow from drying up. Thank you, Maharaji, for keeping us entertained. I wish you'd consider disrobing and dancing around with your flute again. That was some mad kinky shit!

Subject: Maharaji's Flute! From: Moley To: Gregg Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 15:56:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you, Maharaji, for keeping us entertained. I wish you'd consider disrobing and dancing around with your flute again. Well, I've never heard it called that before.

Subject: Oh THAT. No, he calls that his penny whistle [nt] From: Jim To: Moley Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 01:31:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Penny the Premie I presume? [nt] From: Moley To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 09:57:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yeah, bring back the pantomine dame.. From: Nige To: Gregg Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 15:33:13 (EDT) Email Address: nigeetc.. Message: Great post, Gregg. Well said, indeed.

Subject: Re: Ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-changes... From: Jim To: Gregg Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 15:10:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gregg, This is an excellent post and an important point although, I'm not sure it's universally true. I think that cult's sometimes don't change at all and settle into some very fixed positions so long as they don't hve to change to cover for changed circumstances (e.g. failed prophecies, uncloseted skeletons or important defections and the like). But when they DO change, it's just as you describe.

Subject: The Unchanging Moon From: Gregg To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 15:41:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're right, Jim. As a matter of fact, when I wrote the above, I was thinking the same thing...especially in regards to Reverend Moon. I don't follow him very closely - the Heavenly Father is just plain stodgy and not very much fun to follow. But my understanding of the cult is that it still follows the same book/doctrine as it always has. Now David Berg and the Children of God (aka The Family)...there's a cult you can sink your teeth into!

Subject: My personal fantasy... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Gregg Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 14:31:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Things are becoming so much more 'personal' these days in the World of Knowledge. I'm hoping that Maharaji, I mean, Prem Rawat, will start dancing again, only this time wearing just His Krishna Crown, His Mala, and a thong. In my fantasy, we all get ripped on conac while He dances, and we stuff $100.00 dollor bills in His thong! That would be SO intimate and personal, and truely a win-win situation for all concerned. I hope He considers it! :P Andrea Eriksonn, Who is not in a cult and is so glad to have a Master who is such FUN. Prem is just full of suprises!

Subject: Re: My personal fantasy... From: Jerry To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 16:38:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm hoping that Maharaji, I mean, Prem Rawat, will start dancing again, only this time wearing just His Krishna Crown, His Mala, and a thong. Naw, just the crown, nothing else. In the background will be playing Joe Cocker's You Can Leave Your Hat On. you've heard that, right? take off your coat, real slow take off your dress, yes yes you can leave your hat on.

Subject: Randy Newman, not Joe Cocker NT From: Mickey the Pop Musician To: Jerry Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 17:23:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Yes, the Thong of Tholoman! :) [nt] From: Jim To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 15:11:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: not the thong of thixpence? (nt) From: cq To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 16:08:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: not the thong of thixpence? (nt)

Subject: Replies for all From: Caution To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 10:11:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 24 hours produces the following- Tonette= admits to discrimination Nigel= accuses me of posting as Drug Squad Loaf= maybe becoming Buffy An Aussie ex = equates 'regretable' with 'following the law' Jenny (another Aussie ex)= says 'Neville had no trouble expressing a certain gushing sweetness and softness when it came to knowledge'. Marianne= thinks Neville was head of DLM and WPC in Aussieland Gail= used to think M could appear in her house at any time. Cynthia= brings up Jim Jones JHB= speaks for us all Sir Dave= agrees with Maharaji Vicki= talks about 'bashing someone in the head with a hammer' Congratulations. You patronise a site that spends all its time trying to discredit one human being. You've said enough in 24 hours to damn you all under the same criteria.

Subject: Re: Replies for all From: Vicki To: Caution Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 05:15:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How ignorant are you? No ex-premie, not one, has committed acts of violence such has been committed by premies, including raping children, bashing in a human being's skull, and let's not forget running over the bicyclist. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

Subject: Absolute 100% repulsion From: Marshall To: Caution Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 19:04:48 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: In a way it's a total waste of time, responding to such a brain dead moron as 'Caution', but it's kind of fun in a bizarre and pathetic way. In most ways I am merely repulsed and disgusted by these deranged guru addicts. Part of me however feels pity and sympathy for these diehard Prem-ee's. Face it, what an embarrasing mousetrap to find yourself caught in. Maybe Caution should, in the words of his master, just go back to his 'little rat-hole' and shut up. I think the proper phraseology for the odd behaviour exhibited by Caution and Drug Squad is 'ego protection'. These diehards can't face up to the fact that rawat has made complete fools of them for over three decades and counting. Can you blame them? It must be hard to swallow that kind of bitter pill, although others here appear to be doing just that. Oh well some peoples ego's are more fragile than others I guess. Hopefully Caution will either be able to delude himself for the rest of his/her life or, will find the strength to not go crackers when the truth finally hits home. Sincerely, Marshall

Subject: you damn yourself, Caution ... From: cq To: Caution Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 16:16:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: as an (albeit biased) evaluation of the responses you've received to your post, that was a piss-poor effort on your part. Maybe you're still too defensive to recognise the validity of the opposition's point of view. 'Discredit one human being?' - ah, but don't forget, that one human being, Prem Rawat aka Maharaji, is a human being who wasted many years of many peoples' lives as a result of his pretence to be the 'Lord', 'Saviour', God in human form ... (you remember? or are you one of the relative newcomers to his continued scam?)

Subject: May I caution you not to lie! From: Gail To: Caution Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 16:05:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gail= used to think M could appear in her house at any time. Be honest, or at least answer this please. Did you believe that Prem Pal Singh Rawat was the living Lord (the latest incarnation of Krishna, Budda, Jesus, Mohammed, and others in the God business not mentioned)? Didn't he tell you that 'Guru Maharaj Ji is the al omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnicient being. Hell, he told us he could turn us blue and make us fly at one point in Kissimee (during a drunken stupor). Of course I believed he could show up. The creator in human form can do ANYTHING. If you didn't believe this, why did you hang around? Did you kiss your math teacher's feet, send him/her money, put a picture up of him/her, swing butter candles, drink his/her bathwater, talk about him/her non-stop, obsess about him/her, only associate with people who were like-minded? THE FACT IS THAT YOU BELIEVED AND STILL BELIEVE THAT PREM PAL SINGTH RAWAT IS A DIVINE BEING! Hey, couldn't he still show up in your livingroom? Pleeeeeeaaaaaase! If Prem is just an ordinary guy, why did you kiss his feet last weekend. YOU ARE A LIAR. Many people have done incredible, saint-like things in their lives, and they NEVER ASK OTHERS TO PROSTRATE TO THEM--THEY PROBABLY DON'T EVEN MENTION WHAT THEY HAVE DONE. Maharaji used to promote these fairy tales. 'One day I will knock at your door and pass you your milk.' I used to think he could appear in my house at any time. Wasn't that the point of the Krisna gopi stories and Mira Bai? ALWAYS BE PREPARED FOR THE LORD. He was still flogging this junk five years ag.? After all, Maharaji had come with all 64 powers. Neville was right to get people up. The Lord might appear at any time. John MacGregor ... should realise that encouraging people like Neville can have disastrous results. Such as getting some of the Aussies who recognize him to wake up and smell the coffee. Even the zealots are leaving the sinking ship. What about you, Caution?

Subject: I've said nothin' so far From: Moley To: Caution Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 15:43:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But: You spluttered, You patronise a site that spends all its time trying to discredit one human being. Nothing intrinsically wrong with that. Think Jean-Marie le Penn, think Milosevitch... Anyway - what do you think you were doing to Neville... hardly crediting him, were you?

Subject: I assumed - didn't 'accuse'.. From: Nigel To: Caution Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 15:37:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Perhaps you are not 'Drug Squad'. Fine. Whatever. If you don't have the courage to post under your own name when making repulsive character assassinations you can't expect anyone to take you seriously, or care what other aliases you have used. Your tactics are as pathetic as Drug Squad's - and I stand by every other word of my post lower down. You are one sad sack of shite, 'Caution'. Nigel

Subject: I OBJECT ! From: Loaf To: Caution Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 14:02:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nearly becoming Buffy is a wonderful thing for a man at my time of life.

Subject: quit crying From: salsa To: Caution Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 12:18:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: YOU ARE IN A CULT BABY! Real freedom is very good. You have an imaginary bondage with a greedy, liar guru. Face the truth and grow up! Make yourself a favor, reason, use your logic. I wish you well. silvia

Subject: Throw caution to the wind... From: Cynthia To: Caution Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 11:28:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''You patronise a site that spends all its time trying to discredit one human being. -- Caution And you, Caution, spend all your time worshiping one human being. I give you no congratulations on that, just pity. I also brought up the Scientologists, you forgot to mention that. Poor, poor Prem Rawat. One human being. You must have a lot invested in this 'one human being' for you to be so defensive.

Subject: Hey Caution, From: Will To: Caution Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 10:39:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Caution, In all the responses you got, didn't you find ANYthing worthy or accurate or appropriate or thoughtful or well-spoken or positive in any way? Hmmmm, your first post was entitled 'Please listen.' Did YOU listen? Come on. Let's not kid ourselves. You obviously have come to vilify the ex-premie efforts. This is understandable, given your affiliation with Prem Rawat. You are afraid that something bad is going to happen to Prem Rawat. But I am afraid that your attempts to squelch the ex-premie efforts will be unsuccessful. There really is nothing you can do. Making a post here that blames ex-premies for any possible future negative effects for Prem Rawat is a very lame effort. You might as well stop right now. Prem Rawat has a difficult job, getting people to devote themselves to him as if he were some kind of savior figure. His efforts have been somewhat successful, but he has made a LOT of people quite angry. And he continues to do so. You might as well face it, Caution. The negative results come with the territory. I'm sorry that your little heaven on earth in Australia has been marred with discontent and protest. But you better get used to it.

Subject: O, I. C. A NUT !!! From: Anna Gram To: Will Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 11:42:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: That's it in a NUTshell eh, Caution? From: Tonette To: Caution Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 10:21:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, you don't even make sense, just in case you haven't noticed. Laughable except for the sad fact of with whom you are allied. Tonette

Subject: The best Amaroo event ever From: DR To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 07:10:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's my opinion. So please feel free to use the space below to imprint your own personal mental picture of what it may have been like to actually be there. After all, that's all you have available to you anyway. Pay no heed to tales you might hear. Remember.... 'The Rumour that can be spoken - is not the True Rumour' Thank you, very interesting.

Subject: But not as good as next year's? From: Nigel To: DR Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 16:43:15 (EDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: That's great it all keeps just getting better and better, DR, beautifuller and beautifuller, ever more divinely divine, five more minutes of infinity than last time... Seriously, I wouldn't deny you one of those cosmic moments if I believed it was as good for you as you obviously wish us to believe it was (your need to share this with us - rather than LG, speaks volumes IMO). Devotee goes to revivalist meet, comes home full of evangelical gush is always kinda heartwarming in a Disney kind of way. Very nice indeed and safer than thinking. No, but seriously, DR, how good WAS it, in terms of better than, say, Houston Millenium, Kississimee, Rome? You are right, we have nothing but mental pictures of the whole thing but, fortunately, we have Cat's testimony to the effect that 'Prem' (not 'Maharaji', all of a sudden - as if this could ever be considered a cult!) - was not only 'compassionate', but also 'exhilarating', not to mention 'amusing'. Sounds like a good gig, indeed. Kinda Gandhi meets David Beckham meets Billy Connolly at the pearly gates? (A cynic here might point out that it is piss-easy to appear compassionate, exhilarating and amusing when there is only one microphone and even if godboy just farted into it the audience of acquiescent lickspittles would find that gesture no less exhilarating, compassionate and amusing... I hear the Rev Moon possesses similar qualities - has a pretty large fart, in fact. Michael Jackson, too. But then how about TWO microphones? - maybe with an intelligent ex on the other side of the discussion table - anyone, really: Me, Jim, Moley, Gregg, Lesley, Anth, Livia, JHB, Loafi, Marianne, Ham Jethro, whoever {pick-your-own, we'd all acquit ourselves exhilaratingly, no doubt, in a REAL Q & A} - framing a few honest, non-trick questions to the giver of the Self-Knowledge of all Self-Knowledges? How long would that compassionate veneer last before... what? - What would happen exactly? Wouldn't you just LOVE to see it? - Of course you would! Your guy could only win, surely, in front of that captive audience...) But I am not that cynic, at least for the duration this post. I just want to know in what way this year's Amaroo was better than ever before? And in what ways do you anticipate next year's bash being even better than this one? Thanks, Nige

Subject: evangelical gush Nige? From: DR To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 20:19:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: errr....ok I'm sure your eyes didn't err, lie to you did they? so you filled in the blank space as I suggested? who's a clever boy then!

Subject: Sooooo true! From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 19:50:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Lots of thought experiments shoot off in all directions. What if someone else had the mike and they started telling jokes -- good ones? Like much, much better than Prem's? Well, we know what would happen, I guess. He'd get the mike back and would switch into pious / serious mode so as to avoid the obvious competition. But what if someone else had just done pious / serious and what if they did it better than him too? What if they 'event' went on for a few more hours than anyone wanted? How long would it take before people started walking out? Sneaking out? What if Maharaji got so up close and personal that he was everywhere, all the time, just walking around, doing stuff. Not even holding court, necessarily, just walking around? How long would it take for the celebrity gloss to wear off and for people to think it was no big deal seeing him here, there or anywhere? I remember last year when Laurie and I went to Costa Rica. We found this one neat place where we stayed about a week. First moments there we were overwhelmed by the amazing monkeys and igunanas. A week later, oh yeah, there's another iguana. Ho hum. I can only imagine how exciting they'd have been after a couple of years. Can you imagine Maharaji trying to tell people night after night after night after night after night after night after night after night after night after night after night (I did not copy and paste these, by the way. These are completely original 'night after night's) adter night after night after night, that this was a special night, a special opportunity to come together and really experience that gratitude ..... Hey, maybe that's why Jim Jones got so ....um peckish. Maybe Jonestown could have been averted if they all didn't spend so much time together ..... :(

Subject: very true jim From: DR To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 20:32:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and back to your wonderfully amusing self....(I too stubbed my sore fingers onto every key to produce this masterpiece of interforum communication - but I have yet to reach Jim's standard of comedy - right Jimbo?) Yea, the familiarity factor....I spent nearly three weeks with Maharaji in the 1970's and by the end of it I was as cocky as fuck, strutting around like I was some kind of holy superstar premieji - pathetic. I much prefer being my real self.

Subject: Why are you behaving like a hyena? From: Jim To: DR Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 20:37:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why are you doing what you're doing on LG? Can't you see that if you guys succeed in discouraging Isabella from talking with me you'll have proven once and for all that you guys are a bunch of lost, pathetic little fools?

Subject: Because I enjoy laughing From: DR To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 21:30:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're thinking of someone else Jimbo I have had nothing to do with your conversation with Is Go for it but I'm not interested.

Subject: Re: Why are you behaving like a hyena? From: Sir Real Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 20:59:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Im just copying you jimbo. BUT IM THE REAL JIM

Subject: Re: Why are you behaving like a hyena? From: Jim To: Sir Real Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 21:10:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, Roupell, you're not copying me. What you're doing is proving that premies not only are generally unable to discuss their beliefs they're even so skittish about other premies doing so in their presence, they'll act like foolish, little children if some actual dialogue does occur. Disgusting, really. YOU'RE disgusting.

Subject: I USE A MAC YOU BOZO From: DR To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 21:32:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: boy, you really are losing it

Subject: Not Guilty ! From: Sir Real Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 21:17:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Im not Roupell. So as usual your pissing in the wind.

Subject: Yeah, it was really in tents!!! From: Dickie Pwickie To: DR Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 13:23:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's always intense around my prim pal but this time everyone was in tents!

Subject: You missed out mate. From: AJW To: DR Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 13:23:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, DR, You should have been round our place. You think Amaroo was cosmic? Forget it. We were sitting round the dinner table, when Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Shiva and Thor all manifested at the table and joined us. Jesus turned the Perrier into the same vintage wine he used at the wedding in Caanan, Shiva laid on some superweed from the 3rd Century, Krishna supplied the music and we were away. The night was filled with miracles, cosmic visions, love and bliss, and Buddha told some great jokes over coffee. (It's a myth he's a vegetarian you know.) Anyway, before he left, he gave us all eternal enlightenment and a solid silver Zippo lighter, with his emblem on it. You had to be there. I'll leave a couple of blank lines for you to fill in with details from your imagination. doodle doo dee doo. Amaroo. Forget it pal. Anth the mythological adjustable wrench.

Subject: Did I say Amaroo was cosmic? From: DR To: AJW Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 20:50:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: err, ok.... Anth, maybe you should have dinner with Nige, you both could just imagine that the table was covered with food and wine....and surrounded by lovely maiden waitresses...ahem Spent some time with dear Glen, he spoke warmly of you and dot

Subject: Anth, the mythological cornish wreck From: Lesley To: AJW Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 16:53:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Geez, I hope Thor didn't eat the dog, or smite the dinner table. Thanks for your contributions to the forum, Anth, and not just the laughs.

Subject: Friends for a Lifetime...Ahh.... From: Cynthia To: AJW Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 15:20:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Zippo Lighters www.zippo.com/products/coty/index.html

Subject: The best Cliff Richard event, ever From: Sir Dave To: DR Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 07:41:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: was not the one I was dragged to by my then girlfriend in 1983. However, it might have been the best ever for the middle-aged women who surrounded me as I stood at the back. For fans of Prem Rawat, I'm sure they enjoyed the Maha show. Personally, I never did enjoy any of the ''festivals'' or Maha events that I went to during the seventies and early eighties, despite being an ashram premie for some of the time and always practicing k. I found the events to be complete Hell for most of the time and was only relieved when they came to an end. The Cliff Richard concert I was dragged to was infinitely preferable.

Subject: The best wedding, ever From: Richard To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 10:07:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was in San Diego last weekend at my 62 year old brother's wedding. It was really wonderful to see my 3 brothers, nephew, niece, grand nephew and even a long lost cousin I hadn't seen in 40 years. The gathering was overflowing with love, tears and laughter. I was amazed at how much it reminded me of going to festivals. The anticipation, the plane trip, the hotel, nostalgia, seeing old friends. The huuuuge difference is that the entire event could be attributed to our mutual expression of love for each other rather than some vague sense of attribution to one person. Also there were no smokers standing around enjoying THAT experience afterwards like at M&K events. Love and joy are enough for this non-PWK. When I returned to M&K after a 7 year hiatus, it was precisely because I had missed the sense of community and my old friends. I still enjoy those things and seek out the same friends but in healthy situations. After a Long Beach event or two, the fun I had with friends was increasingly sullied by the obvious devotion demanded by M and his own arrogant posturing. I must say that my brother can be a bit much at times but I can tell him so right to his face and he gets it. Then we laugh about it, hug and say 'Love you man!' Huuuuuge difference. I am so grateful that I didn't spend last weekend doing the GooGoo ga ga in the desert and returning to a $4000 credit card bill.

Subject: Goo Goo Ga Ga in the desert From: Tim G To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 14:58:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice one Richard. I feel a song coming on.

Subject: Re: Goo Goo Ga Ga in the desert From: Richard To: Tim G Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 20:02:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, get a cool back up group doing a doo-wopish chant: Goo Goo Ga Ga, Goo Goo Ga Ga, Goo Goo Ga Ga, Goo Goo Ga Ga. I go Goo Goo Ga Ga over you, I go Goo Goo Ga Ga 'cause ya told me to, I go Goo Goo Ga Ga over you, I go Goo Goo Ga Ga at Amarooooooooooo. Just keep me in for a coupla points, Tim. Or should that be a coupla pints?

Subject: Re: Goo Goo Ga Ga in the desert From: Tim G To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 09:06:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Definately going to work on it. Coupla points/pints to you... Regards Tim

Subject: Go for it, Tim From: Richard To: Tim G Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 10:56:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just save a seat for me at the Grammies.;) Well, it's definitely got a hook going for it. I woke up repeating that phrase over and over and over in my head. Goo goo ga ga, Singin' goo goo ga ga, Uh huh, goo goo ga ga, Yeah, goo goo ga ga, Goo goo ga ga, Shout it, goo goo ga ga. Hmmm, could be the theme song for the next devotional flashback a la 1976 Krishna Crown phase. This time, Prem will be subtler though and wear a diamond encrusted Krishna Crown lapel pin and sell them as a fund raiser for TPRF. Those in the know nod nod wink wink will be alerted to a return to unabashed devotion and will just have to have one. Cruisin' along with a TPRF KC lapel pin humming 'Goo Goo, Ga Ga'.

Subject: How many former instructors are exs? From: Gail To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 21:31:15 (EDT) Email Address: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com Message: I know about Charles Cameron, Michael Dettmers, Michael Donner. Who else? Whatever happened to Elliot Brye?

Subject: a few more.... From: la-ex To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 12:19:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Barbara Kolodney, Mike Donners wife, Bill Patterson, Alan Imbarrato, ...I know there's lots more....

Subject: Let's never forget . . . From: Richard To: la-ex Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 13:32:39 (EDT) Email Address: richard@rogers-graphics.com Message: Barbara Clay was brave enough to walk away from instructor's training and was essentially shunned by M. When dear Barbara was dying, Grace Maas who was also an instructor wanted to go see her friend and was told no by M. She also walked. I know of one other former instructor who actively sends premies to EPO. Thanks to her. (A, if you are reading, we have a mutual friend LH married to JD and we both attended parties at their house. Email me for some laughs.)

Subject: Re: How many former instructors are exs? From: Expremie To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 11:15:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Arthur Brigham, Maria ( who was married to Michael Dettmers) Julie Collette, There is quite a lot of ex instructors.

Subject: Re: How many former instructors are exs? From: anonimus poster To: Expremie Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 11:21:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: try Vic Marsh and from memory 2 part time instructors Who Reportedly arnt practicing Don Hogan and Marian Mole

Subject: Correction From: Art Linkletter To: anonimus poster Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 18:50:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I tell Don. He actually doesn't know that. Sillbugger. He watches Satellite and enjoyed the show at Amaroo. Vic's still in there Where do you dream up these things. Arthur does not support this stuff even though Dettmers has bombarded him with email...

Subject: Re: How many former instructors are exs? From: Info To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:04:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Charles prefers not to be aligned with any 'camp.' The information below about him was incorrecto. These things tend to be far more fluid for many people than one would glean from reading here. Elliot is an active PWK once again.

Subject: Re: How many former instructors are exs? From: Loaf To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 01:32:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: there are quite a few.. Mike Finch, Jean Michel .... I was a part time Instructor I think Anth was too... At least I sat through a week long training with Maharaji... and actually, with hindsight, it is something i recommend every premie to undertake. When he is having to deal with specific issues, with managing a seminar/training and actually TEACH something rather than just Inspire... he falls very short of the mark. He doesnt know what he is doing. Its a combination of high self esteem and a 'trust your instinct' culture where he can say whatever he likes.... but unfortunately, over an extended period and where it concerns organisational or practical matters he just cant cope. It would do him good to go to a community college - that way he would have some of the corners rubbed off him by the other kids. He seems to be too important to follow difficult questions... he is good at the off the cuff rambling, expansive charming (to some) answer, but he cannot bear to be scrutinized. If only he would ask for help !

Subject: Re: How many former instructors are exs? From: Jethro To: Loaf Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:00:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'If only he would ask for help ! ' This really made me laugh..... This really made me cry

Subject: Re: How many former instructors are exs? From: Nottm Bunny To: Loaf Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 04:07:46 (EDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Hi Loaf, Were you at the last candidate conference where everyone was left hanging? Anth was not an instructor. I know at least three additional former K giving instructors who are now exes. Bunny

Subject: PS. Loaf where's that essay???? From: Nottm Bunny To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 20:48:41 (EDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: You can email it if you feel shy. Bunny

Subject: Yes I was at the last one in Brighton. [nt] From: Loaf To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 00:55:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes I was at the last one in Brighton.

Subject: to Nottingham Bunny OT From: Jethro To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:04:31 (EDT) Email Address: jed53@hotmail.com Message: NB Would you mind emailing me at the above email address. Jethro

Subject: wrong heading From: Vicki To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 00:34:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: wrong thread

Subject: A timely mistake, Vicki From: cq To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 15:03:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Timely, because it raises the question: Has Jagdeo, a former instructor if ever there was one (though in my day we used to call them mahatmas) ever declared himself to be an ex? Has Rawat ever denounced him publicly? I don't think so. Then should we assume that Rawat's silence about the child molestation that went on in his name implies that Rawat CONDONES it??? It's about time Mr Rawat addressed this issue. For his OWN good, as well as those who were abused.

Subject: Please listen From: Caution To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 19:50:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Contrary to John MacGregor's hype, Neville Ackland is famous in Australia for one thing, being more than a little nuts. He was the type of premie everyone avoided, an insensitive extremist who listened to no one except himself. When he first arrived in Australia he demanded that ashram premies should get fully dressed into their street clothes as soon as they got out of bed in case Maharaji made a surprise visit. When his demands were not met he claimed he was the only devoted premie in Australia and continued thinking it for years. Dealing with Neville was like playing pass the parcel, no one wanted to have him. His exploits were an ongoing cause of concern and jokes. If John MacGregor can rise above his current obsesssion he should realise that encouraging people like Neville can have disastrous results. No one on this site can predict what will happen when an unstable individual is fed a diet of hate and encouragement. It will be too late to say you're sorry if someone flips out and does something we may all regret.

Subject: And I have more to say...! From: Cynthia To: Caution Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 14:19:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To ''Caution'' You know I have felt very spiritually abused by Guru Maharaj Ji, Maharaj Ji, Maharaji, and Prem Rawat. All four of them. When I thought about Neville's reason for standing alone with a sign among the ''throngs'' of tranced out cult members in Amaroo I remembered how spiritually raped I have felt and how much damage that can do to someone. Go away unless you have something more than idiotic threats to give anonymously as Anth said so well below...8) Go build yourself a baragon--ooPs! Forgot, he changed that too. Thanks Anth...you perked me up|D Cynthia

Subject: Ugh. From: AJW To: Caution Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 13:11:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh dear, Another attempt at character assasination. It's really pathetic that the best these cult droids can come up with are anonymous attempts at personal defamation. The same thing happened when John McGregor first posted. 'Caution', you are a fucking cult moron. Neville sounds like he's got more spirit in one of his pubic hairs than you have in your whole being. You are a paranoid jerk. You're the one who is obsessed mate, not Neville, typing out your pathetic insults behind your anonymity. What are you scared of? Why don't you put your name to the inane, cult bullshit you write? Stop wasting your time being vindictive. Get back under your blanket and poke yourself in the eyes for half an hour. Believe that the pretty patterns are God. Go and get a part-time job and send more money to your beloved Captain Rawat, the Perfectly Plastered. You're in a cult. Cult. Cult. Cult. Just like the Moonies. This has warped your perception and understanding. Leave Neville alone. He's just backed out of a spiritual dead end and is realising his true self. Anth, encouraging Neville and more than a little nuts himself.

Subject: Want to know who I think is really NUTS? From: Tonette To: Caution Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:12:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are premieji. At least Neville woke up and and was able to put two and two together. You however, still credit Maharaji or is it Prem for you, with crediability. Now that is what I would call slighty off balanced, a warped reality. And you have the audaciousness to post here, anonymously, with the intention of discrediting Neville. Why don't you take your line, 'it will be too late to say you're sorry if someone flips out and does something we may all regret,' and apply that little scenario to your megalomaniac, alcoholic, immoral cult leader. I have respect for what Neville did. He was peaceful and focused. The message on his sign was neither mean, violent or insane. You however need to take a good hard look at yourself and exactly who you are defending and why. I think it is much more likely a premie is going to snap, at a program and make a scene. Amaroo had 3,000 premies? Events used to host 15,000 premies. So where did 12,000 of us go? We realized what a ruse M was and got on with our lives. What does that tell you about the remaining 3,000? That by and large they are wrapped tight? Don't think so. I think that the person who should be cautious is you. Not only for what a warped out premie is capable of but what the future holds for you if you continue to validate and align yourself with the creature who calls himself Prem. Tonette

Subject: Re: Please listen From: Bolly Shri To: Caution Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:16:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Golly! Mr. Caution did Australian premies have time to dress and undress in between ssm? All premies not singing from the current hymn sheet are bongo in premieland and I am happy to count myself amongst them. Caution, at the time you are talking about virtually every member of the cult was regarded as bongo by some faction or other. So now denouncing the cult is bongo, keep up the good work Neville and more power to your elbow.

Subject: Did you think Jan Palach was bongo? NT From: jethro To: Caution Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:09:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: fo

Subject: Great thought, how about David Smith? From: Tonette To: jethro Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:16:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is/was he nuts? Grace Wallace? Even Ira Woods for that matter. I listened to those initiators and I even thought at the time, thru my cult haze, that there was something not quite right about them. Tonette

Subject: please f*** off... From: Nigel To: Caution Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:50:15 (EDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: You have the sincerity and integrity of a Scientologist. I assume you also posted as 'Drug Squad' below..? You'll get nowhere with these bully-boy threats and character defamations beyond to illustrate to the disinterested outsider or wavering premie exactly what a cult mindset can do to a person. From what I can see, Neville is ten times the human being you will ever be. No - make that one hundred times. Shame on you.

Subject: Re: Please listen From: Loaf To: Caution Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:03:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello I have no doubt that Neville's couragious (and you have to admit it took a lot of bottle to do what he did, and to post his address afterwards !) action didn’t cause ANY Premies to have doubts….. I can imagine myself leaving such an event, blissed out of my nut... I wouldnt be 'open' to 'rational' discussion with a bongo ! In fact I remember whenever I had taken someone to an event, and I came out afterwards, drunk and blown away by it all.. and they were still wittering on as if nothing had happened.. I used to feel pretty pissed off with them ! It was like : ' I just spent 4 days in the most precious place on earth, with the most precious person on this planet, and life will NEVER be the same again... and YOU are WITTERING ON about God-Knows-What !!- Didnt you learn ANYTHING ???!!!' I remember it well. I was in a bubble - and if anybody dared to prick my bubble, they could be seen as a threat - NOT in a good 'teaching me a lesson' kinda way, but in a 'I cannot tolerate the presence of this JERK' Kinda way. I seem to be writing in High School Americanese today...maybe I am turning into Buffy. My point is, that IF anybody is at risk... Its Neville. Maharaji is not at risk... he has million dollar security and a million dollar ego. Neville has made himself exceptionally vulnerable... that deserves the utmost respect... and it means that the PWSK and aspirants will need to take great care of him. Implied threats like yours will only incite some pumped up bliss-head to do something ... and after all, if Nville isnt really a threat... accomodate him, forgive him, absolve him, embrace him. IF he IS a threat... ask yourself WHY ? Why do people feel so strongly about Maharaji that they might do something silly ? Why do people think that knocking Neville on the head with a hammer would make the problem go away ? Sounds pretty insecure to me. Sounds like a tribe of people, loyal to a very easily damaged man... if the words and deeds of little Neville can rattle your cages, maybe its time to look at what you have become. You need a frame of reference outside of yourself. All of us do. That is why the constant submersion of a person into their own FEELINGS can leave them vulnerable to make un-moderated responses. Knowledge is deeply subjective. The culture of it puts you in a bubble.. and dear God I would have defended that bubble with my LIFE ! Premies Could fly off the handle. Any mob under attack will behave in a offensive/defensive manner. BUT these are not the traits of enlightenment. They are simple human behaviour, and a cult under pressure will naturally behave in a certain way. * Cult = sub culture by the way.... a group with a shared belief system. The threat of Bongo's has always made 100s of service opportunities at events. People like to get busy playing a VITAL role in helping the Master deliver his timeless and ageless message. The whole security game is part of pumping up the importance of what is on the stage… and reducing the status and importance of the bongo. This of course is what makes bongos go ‘Bong’ in the first place.. they hate being marginalized, and so you get the lost voices at events : Those who buy into the myth still say : ‘Maharaji I want to be closer to you’, those who DON’T say : ‘Maharaji why are you so far away ?’ The ‘master has always been here and is always here for YOU’ myth builds Maharaji up into something bigger than he is... but it also unfortunately builds Neville up into a bigger Ravanesque threat. If Maharaji has no reason to play status games..he should listen and think about why Neville is against him. As Maharaji’s chaffeur told me one day : ‘The problem with Maharaji is that he is ALWAYS right.. Even when he is wrong.’ Well done that man. Now, say it to his face.

Subject: What a perfect summation: From: Carl To: Loaf Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 16:00:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is at the root of the whole ego-driven mess that all authoritarian regimes demonstrate, the infallibility of the figurehead: '‘The problem with Maharaji is that he is ALWAYS right.. Even when he is wrong.’' Fear, deep fear, to be seen or challenged as otherwise. Deep fear in the rank-and-file to acknowledge the cognitive dissonance in response to the events surrounding them. And apparently m. rarely, if ever, stops to consider he's made serious blunders of attitude and execution in his 'work'. Well, he has given many people a fascinating picture of what happens to a person given the role LORD OF THE UNIVERSE when virtually an infant. That person never quite grows up.

Subject: Re: Please listen From: An Aussie ex To: Caution Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 22:49:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi all I don't often post here but thought I should respond to this particular post. I knew Neville in the 70s, though I've not seen or heard of him for many years. Yes, he was a fanatical devotee - I doubt he'd deny it. However I don't remember his being 'nuts'. He always had a sweet side which was just as apparent as his desire to encourage all and sundry to serve the Lord. That approach was pretty much par for the course in those days, in the Sydney ashrams. I never got the impression that he was in any way likely to be violent, if that's what you're implying. His brave action on the weekend was consciously non-violent. It sounds to me like Neville has thought about protest in a wide context, and that at Amaroo he took pains to ensure that he was nowhere near doing anything 'regretable,' eg he talked with the police on duty, made sure he was following the law. Plus his post via John McG below sounds pretty sane to me. I hear a gentleness in relation to premies which fits well with the good stuff I remember about Neville. This tendency to demonise anyone who dares to speak out about the pain they've suffered through involvement with 'Prem' is very telling, as well as being sad, in my opinion. Some Australian premies seem particularly good at doing that (although hopefully that's not the majority). I know it would be more convenient if everyone who had a problem with MJ just went away and shut up. It would be more convenient for the Catholic Church if people who were abused as kids did that too. As someone who hasn't taken the sort of upfront stand that Neville has taken, I greatly admire his courage. An Aussie

Subject: Re: Please listen From: Jenny (another Aussie ex) To: An Aussie ex Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:21:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I also don't often post here, and like you felt obliged to respond. I knew Neville in the ashram, and my recollection of him in those days is similar to yours. He was not that out of place when you take into account the time (the '70s), place (DLM ashram) and situation (serving the Perfect Master/Satguru to spread the Knowledge). I never noticed any organizers having an attitude that there was something amiss with him. My perception of him was that he was a bit different than a lot of males, in that like a lot of the females he had no trouble expressing a certain gushing sweetness and softness when it came to knowledge. Reading caution's post I couldn't help but wonder, if he was considered so nuts, and I never heard he was, why didn't those who thought so and had the authority to act do something about it back then. I saw Neville at Amaroo in the late 90's. He was doing service there daily. In fact he had the big job of garbage and recycling. Again if he was thought of as being so nuts and someone to play 'pass the parcel with' why was he given this considerable service with carte blanche to travel all over Amaroo? I also find it telling and am saddened by what seems to be an attempt to personally discredit anyone who speaks out, particularly as you said from a few Australians.

Subject: Re: Please listen - Thanks Jenny From: Gail To: Jenny (another Aussie ex) Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 11:14:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for stating your case. I don't know the guy, so all I can say is hats off to him for trying.

Subject: Thanks for saying that, Jenny [nt] From: PatC To: Jenny (another Aussie ex) Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 04:23:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: So why did Valerio meet with him? From: Marianne To: Caution Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 22:33:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tell me Caution, why did Valerio meet with Neville if he was such a nut case? Your complaints about him could have been made against just about anyone: he made ashram premies get dressed for the Lord right away in the morning? That sounds about right. I bet you never told anyone to wash a floor with a toothbrush for Rawat, or made sure that Rawat ate on dishes that no one else had ever used, or anything similar, right? Neville thought he was the only devoted premie in Australia. Sounds like most premies. In fact Caution, I bet YOU were the most devoted premie in Australia, right? If he was so unhinged, why did he rise to the positions as the head of DLM and WPC in Aussieland? Your overhwhelming fear of a man with a sign says far more about you than it does about Neville.

Subject: Re: Please listen From: Gail To: Caution Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 20:44:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If Neville Ackland is bonkers, he is in good company. It sounds like he conducted himself in a reasonable manner to me. What did he do that was crazy? He demanded that ashram premies should get fully dressed into their street clothes as soon as they got out of bed in case Maharaji made a surprise visit. Maharaji used to promote these fairy tales. 'One day I will knock at your door and pass you your milk.' I used to think he could appear in my house at any time. Wasn't that the point of the Krisna gopi stories and Mira Bai? ALWAYS BE PREPARED FOR THE LORD. He was still flogging this junk five years ag.? After all, Maharaji had come with all 64 powers. Neville was right to get people up. The Lord might appear at any time. John MacGregor ... should realise that encouraging people like Neville can have disastrous results. Such as getting some of the Aussies who recognize him to wake up and smell the coffee. Even the zealots are leaving the sinking ship. What about you, Caution?

Subject: Now they are Prem's Pals.... From: Cynthia: Oohkay, now I get it... To: Gail Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 21:33:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Prem's Pals, Well I was waiting for the ''Neville was the biggest bonker premie of the universere'' spin, it's finally here (Phew) and thanks but it took you a bit too long to be credible. This one is so obvious it's got my sides are a splittin'. Scientologists use covert and overt threats to intimidate those with the balls to tell or talk about the cult. What's your caution, Caution? Jim Jones was an extra special, real-life cutey about intimidating his defectors. Squads as they were called searched ex-Jones followers' garbage, bugged their houses, stalked them. Paranoia was the name of Jones's game. Veiled threats. The Peoples Temple folks thought Jones was the LORD. They called him Father, capital F. Defectors had to go into hiding with different names to become free of the Jim Jones Peoples Temple's harrassment. They lost children and loved ones to the jungles of Guyana because Jim Jones took guardianship of some of their kids, ownership of their property. So what's this here now? You big tough 'Aussie Men' are gonna bring down Neville? What a bunch of wimpy cult members you are and shame on you. One man with a sign. What this about the reaction and 'caution?' Caution: A blinking yellow light.

Subject: And also listen to this From: JHB To: Caution Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 20:08:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Prem Rawat is an unstable cult leader who from early childhood practiced violence on his father's servants. Later, he developed delusions of omnipotence and caused many people to believe his delusions. He failed to protect his followers' children from the rapist Jagdeo, and accumulated obscene wealth while his followers sacrificed their careers, family, and mental health trying to follow his advice. Warnings against such mentally unstable people are welcome here, but this Ackland chap sounds pretty sane from your description, unlike this Rawat bloke. John.

Subject: Hang on a minute Mr Caution From: Sir Dave To: Caution Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 20:06:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd say the Elan Vital premie woman who told Neville Ackland that he'd aquired some very bad karma by his protest, was more than a bit nuts.

Subject: And do what? Rape children? From: Vicki To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 00:37:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or bash someone in the head with a hammer? He sounds positively tame compared to some instructors and EV official types.

Subject: Pope addresses abuse by priests From: Pat W To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 17:59:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just saw on the News that the Pope has made some public announcement condemning paedophile priests. Good for him. I didn't see the whole clip but it immediately reminded me of the Jagdeo furore. Isn't this the sort of statement that possibly many premies and ex-premies would be heartened to see Maharaji deliver? Such responsible articulated concern from a leader goes a long way to garner real respect - if it is clearly genuine. By the way, let me take this opportunity to add my voice to those expressing support to Neville, who it seems, has had the guts to champion the feelings of many in his lone stand at Amaroo. I think it would be appropriate to commision a painting of him, portrayed in his gallant action, to be hung in the corridors of the EPO building.

Subject: And it's about time From: Jerry To: Pat W Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 16:47:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like Maharaji, the pope has known about sexual abuse by priests for years now. He even appointed a cardinal knowing all the allegaitons against him back in 1995. When a priest came forward to testify this cardinal abused him when he was a child, the pope fired him (I'm not sure in what context). I wouldn't say there's anything genuine, at all, about the pope's statements. He just did what any rat would do with his back against the wall, the same as Maharaji will do if it ever comes to it.

Subject: Re: And it's about time From: but will they compensate? To: Jerry Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 17:07:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The EPO building and politics From: JHB To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 19:00:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patrick, in his very serious piece on religious paedophiles, said this:- I think it would be appropriate to commision a painting of him [Neville], portrayed in his gallant action, to be hung in the corridors of the EPO building. Yes, of course Neville's painting should be hung somewhere in the extensive corridors, but the current spat is about the order in which the paintings of Scott, Jim, David, Brian, Katie, and Jean-Michel should be hung on the wall of the Georgian curved staircase to the reception rooms on the second floor. As current webmaster, my own portrait awaits my retirement, so I cannot comment on its placement, although the central position at the top of the stairs is in need of 'filling out'. Joe, who claims to have retired, also has claims on the prime sites, as do many of our illustrious posters. I think the committee has some hard decisions to make. John.

Subject: Where does TED go? the outhouse? From: TED Farkel To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 19:17:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey fellas- Doesn't old TED Farkel get something for all of his hard work at propagation at the TRAC Center? OK, so the 'Holy Family Action Figure Collectible Set' didn't go through the roof like Mr.eDrek and I hoped for, but hey, we banged many an oil drum late into the night with Dave Smith and the Raja, and got right devotional too! Also,'Wet T-shirt/satsang-video/free foamy ' Tuesdays went a long way towards warmin up relations with the neighbors, who can be a might bit tricky down here in Shaft, Alabama... Anyway, if you could honor the Trac Center in some small way, it would be rightly appreciated... Warmly, TED BTW, where IS the EPO buildng? Is it anywhere near the 'Premie Hall of Fame' pavillion I hear they are putting up at Amaroo next year?....

Subject: EPO Builing and Security From: JHB To: TED Farkel Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 19:34:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry Ted, but post Amaroo intelligence tells us that the location of the EPO building at 'Jokas Developments, Limbazi Pagasts, Latvia, LV-4011' has to remain secret. But don't worry, a place has been reserved in the basement corridor for that rather flattering (if I may say so) portrait you sent me. I'm sure visitors will treasure their memories of their visit to the refreshment facilities as a result of seeing Ted's visage. John.

Subject: From cynical ex-Catholic... From: Cynthia To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 18:14:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat W, I think it was a dog and pony show. Cardinal Law didn't have to resign. They take care of eachother and are probably most concerned about the gold they'll have to cash in for the next wave of victims. They've all screwed up really bad but the Vatican and the Holy See have so much power and everything is so secret. My speculation is that it was a preliminary meeting about who will be the next Pope. Papal Politics. Very sad bunch. Cynthia

Subject: Re: From cynical ex-Catholic... From: Pat W To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 19:02:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm sure Papal politics sucks as much as any politics and that your cynicism is not misplaced. The Pope's public statement about abuse within the Chuch had to be done though. Better, I say, to have at least addressed the issue publically than not to have done so. Just mentioning it will have drawn more attention to such problems which should of course not be further ignored. The Pope was probably forced into having to address the subject by the RC equivalent of premie advisors- after all he is, unlike Maharaji, largely a lone figurehead for a massive religious movement - not a self-proclaimed Master or such like. Now Maharaji certainly doesn't think his Organisation / Foundation (or whatever you want to call it) has problems which need to be publically aired. What a difference! The Roman Catholic church is a cult which has evolved over hundreds of years and which has had to become socially integrated to survive. Interestingly, some religious students actually are these days recommended to study Maharaji, and the Indian tradition that he comes from, as a very good example of religion in it's infancy. Witness 'The birth of a Religion' sort of thing. Maharaji could be said to be following the later script quite well, but somewhat prematurely for a Master, by adapting and appealing constantly to society for acceptance - watering down the hard-line etc . The transition from cult to acceptable religion is perhaps defined by the concessions to society that the leader(s) make. Maharaji is kind of unique as a Spiritual Master figure in that he does not seem to be heading for the great Sacrifice - Crucifiction - Ascension- Battle - Confrontation with Evil etc. He would maybe rather compromise and become less controversial - or would he? He rejects the influence of premie advisors and resents a scenario where he becomes answerable to, or representative of others. He sees himself more and more as in control of his own ship. This aspiration has brought him time after time into conflict and friction with premies who maybe disageed with or sought to influence him. At least when he has achieved that lofty position as 'Captain of his own ship' we can expect him to be fully responsible for any mistakes that he makes - for there will surely be no-one else to blame in that event.

Subject: I'm a Catholic victim From: Gail To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 19:38:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I was nine, I was walking with a friend through Pope Pious school yard after hours. The janitor asked us in. This is very exciting for a couple of kids (getting into school after hours). I was sharpening my pencils, but I wasn't the only one. The janitor had unzipped his pants and was rubbing himself against the back of my snowsuit. I quickly made some excuse about having to get home and we took our leave. The other girl and I discussed the scene. I told my mother who promptly called the Mother Superior and the other girl's home. Her mother denounced the whole thing (nice Catholic families don't discuss such matters. I was summoned to the old gal's office on Monday morning. She asked me what happened. She then called me a 'dirty little girl.' She then asked how I could upset my mother with such a lie. I told her to get 'Collie' into her office and I would confront him myself. She refused. I went home devastated. I was deathly ill with Glandular fever and nearly died. Strangely enough, Collie died within three months of the incident while shovelling snow on the church steps. Needless to say, my mother didn't send a donation for flowers for his funeral. Afterward, a lot of garbage came out including a couple of sodomy cases of young boys. Even the church pianist's child had been molested but no one spoke out except my mother and me. After that incident, I began to doubt my instincts. Geez was that what I think it was? How damaging to a child.

Subject: Re: I'm a Catholic victim From: Vicki To: Gail Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 19:57:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Kudos to you Gail for getting yourself away from that man, and for telling your mother. Kudos for her for taking a stand. Imagine how many other children might have been spared had they listened to you.

Subject: Re: I'm a Catholic victim From: Gail To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 20:31:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Vicki. I think the thing that made me sick was not the molestation, but the way the authority figure pretended to doubt my veracity. When something like that happens you really doubt yourself.

Subject: The name of the game is... From: Cynthia To: Gail Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 21:47:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The name of the molestation game is power through authority. If there's anything I've learned about child sexual abuse it's that. And the mindf**k. It is a very sneaky game these predators play. Sorry you had to go through it Gail, Love, Cynthia

Subject: 'Very bad karma' From: Marianne To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:42:38 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: So after he got done with a hard day's work non-violently and peacefully picketing and protesting Captain Rawat's event at Amaroo, Neville rang up an EV PR person who had given him her name and number. She told him that what he was doing was 'very bad karma' and that the Captain knew about what he'd done and was very upset. Great work there, Neville. Why on earth would a solitary, peaceful act of protest be 'bad karma'? Because it's directed at the Lord of the Universe, that's why. You know what Rawat? Bad karma comes from greed. It comes from taking money from millions of people and converting it to your own use, under fraudulent pretenses. It comes from allowing your employee, Mahatma Jagdeo to travel the world, sexually abusing children. It comes from refusing to compensate those children, who are now adults, and who still suffer from the abuse your employee perpetrated upon them. Bad karma comes from falsely portraying your background in your website, in an ongoing attempt to fleece more people. Neville, from the sound of it, you have devoted your life to highly laudable pursuits, and should be congratulated for those efforts. Keep up your good work with the aboriginal community and as an environmental activist. I admire what you have done. Marianne

Subject: They could have given him the Black Spot From: Jim To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:54:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Marianne, this karma threat is so telling, isn't it? Next time, if this ever happens again and Amaroo isn't turned into one big Dya's Playground in the meantime, it'd be nice to at least get a video camera out there with Neville and whoever else braves the winds of bad karma.

Subject: What's a Black Spot? nt From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 11:49:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Never heard that term.

Subject: It's from Treasure Island From: Jim To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 14:39:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is from a summary of the book: Bones is a drunk and a bully; he terrorizes the staff and guest of the inn until Dr. Livesey confronts him. Despite his unpleasant manners, Bones fascinates Jim Hawkins and some of the other residents of the inn with his colorful stories of life on the sea. One day Black Dog, a pirate, appears at the inn, and has a violent argument with Billy Bones, who suffers a stroke afterward. When Blind Pew and the other pirates show up to give Bones the 'black spot', Bones suffers another stroke and dies. When Jim and his mother search Bones' chest for money to pay his bill, they find the treasure map. Don't know if Stevenson just made it up or it's an actual bit of pirate lore but the idea is that by giving someone a piece of paper with a solid, black circle on it, you were giving them a major, death-inviting curse. Just receiving the Black Spot was enough to kill a man. :)

Subject: Re: They could have given him the Black Spot From: The Other Neville To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:41:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Braves the winds of bad karma.' That's gotta be a song title. Probably by the Scorpions. The non-Aussie, non-heroic Neville

Subject: SHOULD HE MAKE A POLICE REPORT? From: salsa To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:26:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'bad karma' sounded like a threat perhaps?

Subject: Not for that, salsa From: Marianne To: salsa Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:29:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The bad karma remark was just stupidity.

Subject: Bad karma... From: Cynthia To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 18:08:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is that like 'instant karma gonna get you...' line from John Lennon. Funny, isn't it, that Prem Pay Pal (btw, notice how all the post-2002-Amaroo PWKs and premies now call him endearingly 'Prem?') was reportedly upset by one lone picketer of the Year: Aussie Neville who stood strong against the hindu 'karma' warning. I wonder if that PR person was afraid because Prem Rawat was upset? And if no premies noticed why are the usuals denying all stories told here? Hmmmm....just interesting questions going through my mind. Cynthia

Subject: Being on a first-name basis with the Lard From: Gail To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 19:10:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Things are really looking up in the Kingom of Premiedom aren't they. Imagine calling the Lard by his first name. The leftovers are truly blessed. How can the LOTU possibly top this. This is just tooooo much. Check out the questions and answers: Q - Oh Prem! Oh gosh. My heart's pounding. It's fantastic to see you up close and talk to you after 31 years of following you around. Do you think you could come to London, Ontario to do a program? I wrote the words to the tune of 'Side by Side' to invite you some five years ago but have heard nothing. Do ya remember seeing seven middle-aged women who had abandoned all reason and dignity to become your puppets? We worked on this production for days and had it professionally edited. It went like this: Well we ain't got a barrel of money. Maybe we're goofy and funny But we're singin this ... you get the gist, Prem? A Well, ah, eeeeeek. I'll have to consider that around the same time I give that elderly lad a ride in myyyyyy jet. ___________________________ Q Yessiree Prem. It sure is nice getting to know you on a personal level after all this time. No more maddening crowds getting in my way. No more instructors to listen to (they gone to the ex-premie forum 7). No more poor folk begging at the doors. One person who used to be your devotee said he realized the Prem Pal and K were for rich folks the very first he saw the new sales tables back in 1996. Of course, he couldn't keep up with the travel expenses so he had to give it up (like smoking). How come you don't subsidize the poor folk like you had us do for your Indian premies back in 1979? A Well, ah, eeeeeek. It would interfere with my work. __________________________________ Q. But didn't you say, Prem, 'When I call, you come?' These guys can't afford to. A. It's all a divine lyela. Don't worry about it. I've never lost a premie yet. Q. Prem, are you really the Lord? A. I never claimed to be the Lord. I sat under the LOTU banner bcause it was the only clean place. (wink, wink) As Lord Krishna once said, there will be darshan tomorrow.

Subject: Marianne - see my question below re juveniles [nt] From: Dep To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 17:03:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hi DD- death row, meditation, etc From: Marianne To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 17:48:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: DD: Here's the short answer. I am not part of the anti-meditation camp. If meditation works for people, that's fine with me. DD, kids/people who end up on death row have so much going on in their lives that meditation is the last thing that is going to help them. They are typically in such a state of life long crisis from having been horribly abused in unimaginable ways that they are living literally from moment to moment. Their mental functioning is so impaired that they usually can't hold down a job, a home, or meaningful family relationships. Usually every aspect of their lives is nearly or completely out of control. Solving the problems that these folks have so they don't end up harming others takes concrete action -- not telling people to do something to calm themselves down. They need proper food, a stable place to live, people they can depend on, and help taming the demons in their heads and hearts. Suggesting that meditation might be an antidote for these folks is sort of like Marie Antoinette telling the starving of France to eat cake. As for the meditation teachers, well, after witnessing what Rawat has done, I'm pretty skeptical. The only person I've seen around EPO who found a teacher he can recommend is Gregg. I believe there is far more to be realized from working in impoverished communities, and volunteering to help people in a concrete way, that allows me to find peace. Endless navel gazing or paying attention to my breath is an exercise in self absorption which doesn't have any meaningful effect on the outside world, as far as I can see. Marianne

Subject: Re: Not for that, salsa From: Gail To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:42:16 (EDT) Email Address: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com Message: Speaking of karma, isn't it a damn shame that it probably is a fairy tale. Would it be nice to imagine Maharaji burning in purgatory for a thousand years (justice for the millenium of peace he promised us) followed by an incarnation as a dung beetle. (God knows we ate a lot of the shit he shovelled. It's time the shoe were on the other foot.) Yodel aheeeuwwww. Why not e-mail me again. It's the right account. If that doesn't work, try .ca.

Subject: You deleted my post but From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:34:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you still have that ''Kiss my ass'' logo on the forum. My post was not breaching copyright but the logo is. Plus the logo is not serious or polite. There's some major contradictions here with the forum moderators.

Subject: point taken From: blush... To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 21:39:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: well it was just a bit of fun, only meant for duration of the thread but lo and behold... it went further. The parody had a point, and like many written points pushed on this forum at times can be really in your face. Crude and sometimes offensive to some people. The moment is now over. Wowsers and subversives make the world go round. Charlatans are parasitic.

Subject: Thoughts on the 'Arse' Logo From: Pat W To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 18:17:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The 'Arse' Logo is not a great idea in my opinion either... It's inflamattory in an unsubtle way. Don't get me wrong - I am a huge fan of caricature but I am not entirely sure that it is a suitable 'banner' for this particular forum. No doubt the logo reflects the owner, Gerry's and some others feelings but not nevertheless, I would suspect, necessarily the sentiments of the majority of people who approach this place as a 'rare resource' for frank and 'sincere discussion' if you will. I would have thought a more diplomatic front would be far preferable and I would go so far as to say that I view the Logo as a small but effective step in the wrong direction. It could marginalise the contributors to this place. Not a very welcome result surely?

Subject: Gerry took the words right out of my mouth From: Jim To: Pat W Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 12:37:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, Patrick, but I, too, was going to tease you almost just like Gerry. I was going to ask if your mother taught you to talk like that? I mean, where are the watercress sandwiches? Patrick, jokes about class-consciousness aside, you must admit that this was an exceedingly sweet little caricature. Better than the breasts because, for one thing, it needs so little work to make such a perfect, new image. For another, the new image speaks directly to the whole pomposity of the Prem Rawat Foundation itself, does it not? He's setting himself out now as some sort of hottie-tottie 'Leader' when really, as we all know, he's just laughing his head off at the gullible. Kiss my ass, indeed. I guess I have to ask you what kind of caricature appeals to your rarified sensibilities if not this? Don't get me wrong, I don't want to fight about it but, frankly, your post seemed so snooty, it almost makes me want to. Can you understand why? Your friend -- with the help downstairs, Jim :)

Subject: Re: Gerry took the words right out of my mouth From: PatW To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 14:58:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, Patrick, but I, too, was going to tease you almost just like Gerry. I was going to ask if your mother taught you to talk like that? We all speak like that around here. Sorry. I guess I have to ask you what kind of caricature appeals to your rarified sensibilities if not this? The issue is not whether I appreciate Gerry's caricature which I have to confess did not make me howl with laughter. What was somewhat abrasive to my delicate sensibilities was the hostile placing of such a joke - which was clearly intentionally highly offensive to premies and at the expense of their Master - at the 'gate' of a forum which is supposed to host and welcome discussion between the two parties. There are loads of people who stay away from this place because it is perceived as too hostile and I am not alone in having some sympathy for them. You might as well rename the forum the 'Kiss my Arse Maharaji ' forum. A joke in Private Eye magazine is very funny because when you buy the magazine you hope to enjoy first rate wit at the expense of people who usually deserve it. I have often thought that it would be even appropriate for EPO to have a section with caricature and parody. Gerry's creations would be an effective step in the right direction there in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to fight about it but, frankly, your post seemed so snooty, it almost makes me want to. Can you understand why? Puke? Look, maybe I do sound snooty and uptight -and that upsets people - but please try and see beyond my unintended pomposity to grasp my point. I think I have one. I also have a slight suspicion that Gerry's joke may have more appeal to Americans than the British who seem to be the one's not so impressed with it here so far.

Subject: Yes and no From: Jim To: PatW Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 15:32:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patrick, First, the joke was cq's, not Gerry's. Chris, I believe is one of yours. :) Second, yes, you do have a point that some might well be turned off by the joke at the 'gateway' as you put it for these important discussions. But when you say: There are loads of people who stay away from this place because it is perceived as too hostile and I am not alone in having some sympathy for them. you make me wonder -- aloud now -- why you call this forum 'too hostile'? You've often said that, I know, but I, for one, can't help thinking that's the premie in you talking, Patrick. Maharaji, who just the other day had his paying crowd line up once again to kiss his feet in another crazy expression of undiluted cult worship, deserves derision. I think that any fair-minded, informed, even upper class, observer, would agree. This forum exudes that derision. So be it. There's nothing 'too' about it. Indeed, I wonder what you'd expect us all to talk about. I mean, yes, there's lots of room for gentle, sensitive 'I statements' about the travails we experienced, our broken dreams and confusion. There's also lots of room for the kind of careful, thoughtful analysis of Maharaji's 'legacy', such as it is, and other relevant issues. But there's also lots of room for people just being people and expressing their honest hostility to the founder of the Prem Rawat Foundation. Sure, premies have and will continue to fault us for being too this and too that. It truly saddens me to see you fall for that, though.

Subject: Since you mentioned it... From: gerry To: Pat W Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 10:57:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm a little peeved at this reply now that Tim G has chimed in with his concordance. It's inflamattory in an unsubtle way. Don't get me wrong - I am a huge fan of caricature but I am not entirely sure that it is a suitable 'banner' for this particular forum. It's a parody, actually and not really a caricature, and a damn good one if you ask me. As for its 'suitability,' are we such delicate flowers we can't take a little spoofing? I suspect someone's starching your boxers a little too heavily. No doubt the logo reflects the owner, Gerry's and some others feelings but not nevertheless, I would suspect, necessarily the sentiments of the majority of people who approach this place as a 'rare resource' for frank and 'sincere discussion' if you will. 'No doubt' huh? What are you, a mind reader? And as far as the 'majority' view here, how do you know this? Have you taken a poll or even asked around? I would have thought a more diplomatic front would be far preferable and I would go so far as to say that I view the Logo as a small but effective step in the wrong direction. 'Effective?' Now there's a curious usage. Just exactly what are you inferring here, Patrick? I'd really love to hear it. Maybe you hadn't noticed but there used to be wicked and long and ugly internicine battles here to which I put an end. Maybe you haven't noticed but we used to be at the mercy of some of the most annoying and disruptive trolls on the interfuckingnet, and I took care of that, too. I would have thought you'd rather liked being able to play nice nice on our new rational and civil forum. But some people can always find something to complain about, I guess. As I told Jim in an email one week ago, I never intended for the spoof logo to be a permanent part of the introduction. It was a spur of the moment thing. Remember spontaneity, Patrick? Sheesh.

Subject: Re: Since you mentioned it... From: PatW To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 14:16:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's a parody, actually and not really a caricature, and a damn good one if you ask me. As for its 'suitability,' are we such delicate flowers we can't take a little spoofing? I suspect someone's starching your boxers a little too heavily. Your parody may well be 'damn good' and if you think it's suitable then fine. Don't take pay any attention to my boring, uptight ideas. And as far as the 'majority' view here, how do you know this? Have you taken a poll or even asked around? 'suspect' not 'know'. 'Effective?' Now there's a curious usage. Just exactly what are you inferring here, Patrick? I'd really love to hear it. I was inferring that the successful effect of the logo is a step in the wrong direction in that it may put people off posting here. Again, don't let me cramp your style though - I was just voicing an opinion. Maybe you hadn't noticed but there used to be wicked and long and ugly internicine battles here to which I put an end. Maybe you haven't noticed but we used to be at the mercy of some of the most annoying and disruptive trolls on the interfuckingnet, and I took care of that, too. I would have thought you'd rather liked being able to play nice nice on our new rational and civil forum. But some people can always find something to complain about, I guess. As I told Jim in an email one week ago, I never intended for the spoof logo to be a permanent part of the introduction. It was a spur of the moment thing. Remember spontaneity, Patrick? Sheesh. Alright, alright...I'm sorry I spoke. I didn't read that post where you explained your intentions.

Subject: Both of you used 'infer' wrong!!!! [nt] From: Jim To: PatW Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 14:24:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Both of you used 'infer' wrong!!!! From: Pat W To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 15:15:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Jim... yes - it's a common misuse I suppose. This from another source: 'Imply' and 'Infer' are not synonyms. 'Imply' means to suggest or hint: The police implied that the crime was solved. 'Infer' means to conclude or derive from: Since the police implied (suggested, hinted) that the crime was solved, I inferred (concluded) that they would soon arrest the culprit.

Subject: Re: Both of you used 'infer' wrong!!!! From: Pat W To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 15:15:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Jim... yes - it's a common misuse I suppose. This from another source: 'Imply' and 'Infer' are not synonyms. 'Imply' means to suggest or hint: The police implied that the crime was solved. 'Infer' means to conclude or derive from: Since the police implied (suggested, hinted) that the crime was solved, I inferred (concluded) that they would soon arrest the culprit.

Subject: And you all used the word ''wrong'' wrongly :C) [nt] From: PatC To: Pat W Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 17:32:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: :) [nt] From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 18:18:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I looked it up before using it !!! From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 14:27:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: dictionary.com I checked the definitions of both words before deciding 'infer' was indeed the proper word. Musta got it backwords somehow, because "imply" was the word I wanted. I get it wrong even when I look it up. Perhaps Patrick is more trainable.

Subject: Yeah, but you WROTE that dictionary From: Jim To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 14:53:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Infer means 'to derive as a conclusion from facts or premises' Imply means 'to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement' Unless I'm wrong, both of you guys were talking about Patrick's indicating something, not a conclusion he drew. Thus you should have asked what he was implying, not inferring. No?

Subject: No apology needed for speaking your mind From: gerry To: PatW Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 14:21:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was the ah, tonality of your post, I guess, which put me off. And nowhere, or at any time have I considered your ideas as boring and uptight. Quite the contrary. Your batting average as a mind reader puts you in the bush leagues for this year, at least :)

Subject: Yep, it's unsubtle and wears thin.ntLogo From: Tim G To: Pat W Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:12:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I was waiting for the whingers to show themselves From: gerry To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 20:40:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The 'Arse' Logo could 'marginalise the contributors to this place.' does your mother know you talk like that??? Anyway the universe resolved the issue by making the logo disappeared by itself. I replaced the red X with the old donate button. I thought the Logo spiffed the joint up a little while our premie pals were all vacationing with the Guru. You know, have a chuckle at the Knucklehead's expense while nobody's lookin' kind of thing.

Subject: I love that logo. Can't you put it back? From: Gail To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 20:46:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You've altered it. How about changing the colour?

Subject: Re: Thoughts on the 'Arse' Logo From: JHB To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 18:28:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Although I suspect it's not such a big deal, I agree with you Patrick. My thoughts in this kind of situation are with the wavering premie who finds this forum and is afraid to read. Before they even get a chance to read they have to see a parody of their Lord's latest artistry. I really don't know for certain, but it may put them off dipping their toes a little further into life without the neuromasturbation teacher. But then again, using this term that I came up with might also put off the fledgling ex-premie, so who can say for certain? John

Subject: Re: Thoughts on the 'Arse' Logo From: Cynthia To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 18:19:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree. It's very funny but temporary was good. Geeze, I just noticed it's gone... Btw, there are a lot more 'breast' men than 'ass' men on this board:)

Subject: Re: Thoughts on the 'Arse' Logo From: Marshall To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 21:09:07 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Cynthia, You just said; 'Btw, there are a lot more 'breast' men than 'ass' men on this board' This may well be true but I'm just curious. How do you know this? You're joking? guessing? Respectfully, Marshall

Subject: Re: Thoughts on the 'Arse' Logo From: Cynthia To: Marshall Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:41:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just a joke Marshall. At one point the titties were a hot topic re: the logo:)

Subject: I'm a two faced hypocrite From: gerry To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:35:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

Subject: Right, that's it - I'm outta here! From: Sir Dave To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:58:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thou infectious tardy-gaited lewdster.

Subject: actually they are breasts right? From: bill To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:24:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: I'm a two faced hypocrite From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:42:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm glad I missed it. Thanks for deleting. No offence, Sir Dave, wrong board for that stuff.;)

Subject: Re: I'm a two faced hypocrite From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:41:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm glad I missed it. Thanks for deleting. No offence, Sir Dave, wrong board for that stuff.;)

Subject: Oops, two posts, one to delete... [nt] From: Cynthia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:13:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: That Thread, not post. From: Tonette To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:04:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was a thread which consisted of a link which pornogized Life's Great. Not my taste, I didn't even think it was funny. And to make the cake, Mili did the very same thing in another thread with forum seven. Frankly, I do not want to see my posts here linked to headings where my words are substituted for smut. I don't see how bastardizing anyone's words is anything other than offensive. You don't have to be serious nor polite here. But if the FA allows threads and posts to lower to the level of childish pranks, offensive and vindicitive in their nature, I would exit immediately stage right. That sort of stuff is counter productive to the information and dialog which should and does occur on this forum and others. It's the substance that belongs on AG. There is a stage for that sort of mentality. I think the 'Kiss my ass' logo pretty much sums up Ralwat's opinion of himself towards others. Nothing offensive in that. And the word ass is a far cry from cocksucker, fucking, ect. I'm glad your thread and Mili's was deleted. I'm sorry if you have your feelings hurt or if you feel like it was unfair. I really am because I like you Sir Dave. Tonette

Subject: Right that's it - I'm back again From: Sir Dave To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:59:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Childish pranks are my hobby, Tonette. Like it or not, there'll be more.

Subject: Good. Most of your pranks are funny! nt From: Tonette To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 10:28:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: The shit hits the fan From: Neville To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:21:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If John Macgregor is right about Amaroo, and numbers are down 37% on last year, that’s a hell of a drop. Let’s assume for a moment this figure is truly representative. If we call devotee numbers 100% in 2001, a quick compound interest calculation shows: 2001 100% 2002 63% 2003 40% 2004 25% 2005 16% 2006 10% 2007 6% 2008 4% 2009 2.5% 2010 1.5% 2011 1% So, at the current rate of recantation, by 2011AD M will be left with only 1% of his 2001 numbers. Now, M can do sums just as well as us, and if this fall away is really attributable to the work of EPO then we can expect a counter-reaction from M soon. I’m serious. The effluent is about to hit the air conditioning. The CAC attack may well be chicken feed by comparison. Which is why I’ve stopped leaving my e-mail address at this site. (Personally, I think we’re seeing the tail end of a decline that started at the Houston Astrodome. Whatever happened to Rennie Davis, BTW?) Neville (not the heroic Australian one)

Subject: Re: The shit hits the fan From: Mili To: Neville Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:36:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You forgot that the numbers could be a little down this year because of the 'War against Terror' and increased concerns about airline security. In view of that there was a pretty good Int'l turnout this year, IMO. Compare that with the forecasts (and apprehension) that the tourism industry has been having for this season. Actually, numbers don't mean a thing, y'know. Life's afoot for EVERYONE.

Subject: Re: The shit hits the fan From: The Other Neville To: Mili Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:08:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, extrapolating from one statistic is a dodgy business. Naturally, I want to be alive to see M reduced a lonely, isolated man, his delusions all on show, reminiscing about the good ol' days of Guru Pujas to a few, remaining loyal idiots. He's on course for that. Let's face it--his project is over. He isn't going to reach the world with knowledge etc. He's been marginalised. The non-Aussie, stay-at-home, no-pasteboard Neville

Subject: Numbers don't matter From: Sir Dave To: Mili Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:30:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A few hundred here or there from a world population of six billion is irrelevant. What does matter is that Prem Rawat's self knowledge club does not appeal to the vast majority of people in the world - only to a very, very tiny minority of people. Nobody can relate to his philosophy or his actions. I'd thought that would be obvious by now. He's onto a loser.

Subject: How would it look if it WERE a cult? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 19:14:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm thinking that if Maharaji really were a cult leader, his interaction with his followers would reflect that. But how? Well, for one thing, I think that they would travel great distances -- unreasonable distances, in fact -- to be with him. Who else but a cult leader could persuade people to drop all other responsibilities and fly, at great expense, to some far-off, isolated spot just to look at him and maybe hear his voice again? That's one thing. What else? Well, I think that when these people did get together, they would place very little, if any, importance on their interaction with one another as all eyes would be pointed in one direction, at the cult leader. Thus, they would await him silently, perhaps, maybe even in prayer or meditation. Each person would believe that they enjoyed some sort of magical connection to their cult leader and they would prepare individually for his appearance with that fantasy in mind. What else? How about how they act when he finally arrives? If the guy's a cult leader I would expect a few things from the audience. For one, a completely excessive fawning and gushing, like but not identical to what pre-teens express for their movie and music idols. Of course if this were an adult audience, I'd expect a somewhat muted version but fawning all the same. Thus, if the guy's a cult leader I would expect him to make tepid jokes that would leave his audience roiling with laughter. I'd expect them to approach him with great reverence, perhaps even trepidation, only to utter the unfathomable nature of their devotion and love for him. I would also expect that neither he nor they would ever once suggest that there should be some natural limit to either that love or its expression. That's what I would expect if he were a cult leader. Anything else? Yes. I would expect that the cult leader would touch on a few classic points in his address: 1) That his followers have been given something rare and that they alone can cherish and respect its value. No one outside this group could ever understand. 2) That he, the cult leader, offers invaluable assistance in pursuing each audience member's goals, those goals being, essentially, learning to even better appreciate the cult leader! This assistance was critical and could only be effective if the individual recipient allowed no doubt or other mental estrangement to interfere. He or she must approach the leader with complete innocence and trust. To that end, reflection upon or discussion about the past is complex and problematic. As a general rule, it does NOT engender simple innocence and trust. Thus, it's to be avoided. 3) That his assistance was such that it would ALWAYS be needed. Forever. That's just the way it is. Don't ask why, that's just the way it is. Thankfull, of course, the cult leader is so [.......] (wonderful, loveable, beautiful, etc. (fill in the blanks), it will be okay to spend the rest of one's life depending on him so. It's really all too beautiful for words. 4) That the audience would bear a certain level of tension before the cult leader's address and that he, to ecult leader, would play with that tension in one of several ways. If he was happy, he would defuse it with light pleasantries which, as explained above, always elicit an over-reaction from the audience. If the cult leader was unhappy, he might threaten or cajole. It just depends. 5) That the meeting would end with the various audience members feeling that something very special just happened, something so special that it was worth anything and everything to be there. In fact, they shudder at the thought that somehow they might not have come this time. Relieved that they did, though, there'd be a certain levity or relief in the ranks as they then disperse, go home and await the next siren call. I'd expect all that from a cult leader meeting his followers. Wouldn't you? ***:)****:(***:)***:(***:)***:(***:)***:(***:)***:(***:)**** Below, is another report from Amaroo (from ELK, of course): It was a truly 'lovely' afternoon This report from the afternoon 'interactive session' will be followed by an account of the morning event in the next couple of days In the heat of the afternoon sun, 3,000 people sat on the grass in a field - in absolute silence. They were awaiting the arrival of Maharaji - who had promised to come and hold a further 'interactive' session. Some were contemplating the things they might tell him about if they had the chance.. Others were contemplating something a little deeper - and more private stilll. You could almost taste the tranquility in the air - were it not already so sweet with the scent of eucalyptus bark from the trees on the edge of the clearing. And then, a golf buggy drew up silently - and Maharaji, resplendent in red casual shirt... walked straight up to the makeshift stage and began. One of the first people to take the Microphone was Maria from Vancouver. She explained how s he had never spoken to Maharaji before and her friends thought this was odd. He said: 'Well, now you have spoken to me!' She replied: 'Yes, now I can tell them we are really tight.' Raising what was to be the topic of the day, she spoke of her endless longing to speak to - and be near to her teacher. Maharaji asked her if she liked the feeling of longing. She said, 'I love it!' Next came an elderly lady from Japan who invited Maharaji to visit Japan. Maharaji complimented her on her English and then pointed out that he had so many places he wanted to go - and so many places he had not been to for such a long time. He went on to speak about how well the Portugese were doing for getting so many new people interested. He spoke of how 'political' it could become in a country when people fall out with one another. He spoke of the games we get caught up in: It is too easy to complain. Don't climb over people's heads. Work jointly. He described his aviation team... and how important it was for people to work together when flying. Likewise, he said, the area of propagation was no place in which to go making mistakes! Then he told a story. Once, a master was going for a walk. He heard cries of 'help, help!' He saw a man, caught up in a thorn bush. Ripped clothes. Crying help. The master untangled him and took him home. He gave him new clothes (his old ones were shredded.) The man was grateful. He ended up getting Knowledge. But then one day, he started getting into all his concepts. So the master said: 'OK, go to the jungle and get me some berries.' And then, again, it is 'help, help!!!' The master said: How come you got caught here. He said: 'I could free myself but you gave me those clothes and it would have torn them.' The master said: 'Never mind the clothes. They are like concepts. You need to be FREE! And so it is with us: we think we are immune from concepts - but we are none of us are invulnerable to fallling out with one another. A guy from Miami asked Maharaji if he could come and retire at Amaroo. Given the ages of some of his students, Maharaji said that he had been giving the subject of retirement some thought A young lady also from Miami stood up at the back. She said she would likke to get closer to Maharaji- so he invited her to come sit at the front... which after a little persuasion, she did. She said she had no family - but to her, Maharaji is everything. Maharaji described himself as being like a river, moving fast. He said there is never a dull moment around him... Later this proved very true as Gail from Melbourne said hello and Maharaji said G'day in reply. She told Maharaji about her kids, her friends, her plans to leave Melbourne and her dog, a border collie who doesn't like to wash.... much to the amjusement of all. The laughter continued when Maharaji started speaking to an English woman, who was true to the stereotype having difficulty expressing what she wanted to say. He said that she wasn't English - that was a language - but British - and that everything was 'lovely'. A truly British sort of word, that kept on being repeated and repeated topeels of laughter. And it seemed tobe quickly adopted by people of all nations as they walked away from the campground in the lucid air of a brilliantly clear dusk. Hm ......

Subject: Re: How would it look if it WERE a cult? From: Ben Lurking To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:13:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, How could you ever disprove that magical unique connection, its like a board stretcher, a fantasy to all but those that believe and confuse belief with fact. Ben

Subject: Re: How would it look if it WERE a cult? From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:40:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee, I never thought about it but you may be onto something. M just might be the leader of a cult. You think maybe we should warn the current premies? :) Nice analysis, Jim. Glad you are recovered from the flu or so it would seem. Funny, but nowhere in the report from ELK does it mention the presence of a former follower with a sign. M probably just created him to test their devotion. Such a master, eh?

Subject: He's an abusive jerk From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:38:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As per your usual, a wonderful read. Well thought out, well written, to the point. Thanks. The EV posting is the usual cult dribble but one thing did jump out at me. 'A guy from Miami asked Maharaji if he could come and retire at Amaroo. Given the ages of some of his students, Maharaji said that he had been giving the subject of retirement some thought' Well that sums up some of my worst fears for the people still inmeshed in Maharajism, Ralwatism, or shall we say Premism, he's going to try and take everyone willing for all that they are worth. Retirement with M at Amaroo? This is just so telling. I see another ashram debacle coming or worse. And you can better believe the arrangement will be constructed so there will be no recourse towards M when this too, will be another 'experiement that didn't work.' I tell you that little dittie from EV chilled me to the bone. I wish Chuck would post his Amaroo Realty Guide. I can't find the link or I would do it myself. This portion of the interaction is extremely sad. 'A young lady also from Miami stood up at the back. She said she would likke to get closer to Maharaji- so he invited her to come sit at the front... which after a little persuasion, she did. She said she had no family - but to her, Maharaji is everything' She wants to get closer not physically you fat buffoon, but closer on a human level. How about inviting her over for dinner with you and the PAMS or something? For someone who professes to know all the working of the human heart, you sure are an ignoramus Prem. Then again, if she was a blond, a young one at that, maybe he just wanted a closer look. Monica must be showing some mileage by now after all. And this, 'One of the first people to take the Microphone was Maria from Vancouver. She explained how s he had never spoken to Maharaji before and her friends thought this was odd. He said: 'Well, now you have spoken to me!' She replied: 'Yes, now I can tell them we are really tight.' How sad that someone would consider and accept such a shallow exchange as qualifying as being 'tight' or close to someone. Talk about low expectations. Lastly, the final line of EV's description of the 'interaction.' 'they walked away from the campground in the lucid air of a brilliantly clear dusk.' If they knew half of what Ralwat is and what he has done they would 'walk away.' And honey, the only thing lucid was the air, certainly not the participants, they got that right! I'm a bit surprised that EV would not doctor up this little narrative describing M's 'interactive session.' It's so appallingly wierd, describes M ability to make fun of people and leaves one with the impression of a bunch of desperate souls grabbing at the cloth of his designer 'red' shirt. Too strange. Warmly, Tonette

Subject: Re: He's an abusive jerk From: Gail To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 21:01:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why would anyone want to take their pensions and retire to Amaroo? There would be no retirement there. Just work for free and pasta for supper at $7 per portion. Living in tents with your ____ freezing off because Prem can't afford permanet shelters. yada yada yada!

Subject: No money in selling tents, calling Chuck and Pat, From: Tonette To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 11:40:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh there would be lots of 'service' allright but I imagine Ralwat would use this 'opportunity' in order to sell land and sell homes to premie retirees. This would occur right about the time that he is bored and tired with Amaroo and all too happy to unload the financial drain that Amaroo is. Can you imagine the joy and bliss premies would feel. 'Oh he's so wonderful. To live and die on the earth that my master once walked. And we are bound to see him lots! I'll give my everything.' They will buy it hook, line and sinker. Only it won't be quite what they imagined. It will be a living hell and the ultimate scam. And M will laugh all the way to the bank that he frequents in Malibu, California, 4,000 miles away. Gosh, I wish Chuck would post his link to the hilarious but very possible realty page he made. Possible because M is already scheming this very thing. Only time will tell. Take care, Tonette

Subject: Can Retire to Amaroo... From: You Too To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 14:02:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can only wonder if it's even possible to build any kind of homes there, as a community. Would there be enought water available? Isn't Ivory's rock a National Park? There may be environmental restrictions on developing the area much more than what they have already done. Perhaps some of the Aussies could tell us more about that? - Chuck S. Amaroo Acres Estates... www.geocities.com/cmsjourney/MarlaJenningsRealty.htm

Subject: It's gone too far... From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 20:44:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: when the man won't wear pants in front of his devotees! 'And then, a golf buggy drew up silently - and Maharaji, resplendent in red casual shirt... walked straight up to the makeshift stage and began.' Of course, Cat will respond, 'He *was* wearing pants, red ones, and they were great, and then he bought everyone ice cream!'

Subject: Hi Mickey - ot From: Gail To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:26:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi: Are you still in Panama? Good to hear from you.

Subject: Hi Gail From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Gail Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 19:15:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, still in Panama. We will be here for another three years, maybe more if the present regime remains in power in the U.S.

Subject: M. Pharisee From: Gregg To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:37:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mickey...just a strange little note...you reminded me of a time in a bar in Richmond, Indiana. My friend and I ran into a visiting professor, a composer (whose music sounded both modern and martial), who was totally drunk and thus felt free to tell us about his secret passion...Hitler. Yeah, he was a German-American Nazi. Anyway, he went on and on about the Nazis and Hitler. He told a story about how, when a group of Germans were being pummeled by Allied bombing, Adolf Hitler personally sent a couple of trucks to the poor dears with steak and...ice cream. Whatta guy.

Subject: Read 'White Noise' From: Jim To: Gregg Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:44:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Weird novel by Don Delilo about a professor of Hitlerology. Reminds me of this. Good book, by the way.

Subject: Open Letter to Dr. Ron Geaves From: Google Search To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:40:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: FYI -- In a Google search for 'Dr. Ron Geaves,' the 'open letter to Dr. Ron Geaves' on the EPO website comes up number one. Does anyone think this might encourage Dr. Geaves to respond to the letter? Google Search is not holding her breath.

Subject: A threat to Deputy Dog From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 14:48:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm thinking of sending you a copy of Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker .... .... pretty scary, huh? :)

Subject: Jim, I'm warning you! From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:17:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I appreciate your concern. That book is probably quite expensive and I’m warning you, you just might get a 'God' book back in return. Are you prepared for that? And if you insist, please send me one of your CDs and I’ll send you one of mine. If I had the money, if I was independently wealthy, I would be quite willing to send you the tuition for the Landmark Forum. If there is one thing that has defined me over the last few years it is the Landmark Forum. And pluuueeezzze, it’s not a cult. It’s a very effective training. And once you do it (it lasts for 3 days) you go home and never hear from those people again. Believe me, you’ll get 'nothing' from this training. It will even help you to see the value of K. How does the following from The Book On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are by Alan Watts, fit into the Blind Watchmaker paradigm? 'If the world went on and on without rest for ever and ever, it would get horribly tired of itself. It comes and it goes. Now you see it now you don’t. So because it doesn’t get tired of itself, it always comes back again after it disappears. It’s like your breath: it goes in and out, in and out, and if you try to hold it in all the time your feel terrible. It’s also like the game of hide-and-seek, because it’s fun to always find new ways of hiding, and to seek for someone who doesn’t always hide in the same place. God also likes to play hide-and-seek, but because there is nothing outside God, he has no one but himself to play with. But he gets over that difficulty by pretending that he is not himself. This is his way of hiding from himself. He pretends that he is you and I and all the people in he world, all the animals, all the plants, all the rocks, and all the stars. In this way he has strange and wonderful adventures, some of which are terrible and frightening. But these are just like bad dreams, for when he wakes up they will disappear. Now when God plays hide and pretends that he is you and I, he does it so well that it takes him a long time to remember where and how he hid himself. But that’s the whole fun of it – just what he wanted to do. He doesn’t want to find himself too quickly, for that would spoil the game. That is why it is so difficult for you and me to find out that we are God in disguise, pretending not to be himself. But when the game has gone on long enough, all of us will wake up, stop pretending, and remember what we are all one single Self – the God who is all that there is and who lives for ever and ever. Of course, you must remember that God isn’t shaped like a person. People have skins and there is always something outside our skins. If there weren’t, we wouldn’t know the difference between what is inside and what is outside our bodies. But God has no skin and no shape because there isn’t any outside to him. And though I’ve been talking about God as 'he' and not 'she,' God isn’t a man or a woman. I didn’t say 'it' because we usually say it for things that are not alive. You may ask why God sometimes hides in the form of horrible people, or pretends to be people who suffer from great disease and pain. Remember, first, that he isn’t really doing this to anyone but himself. Remember, too, that in almost all the stories you enjoy there have to be bad people as well as good people, for the thrill of the tale is to find out how the good people will get the better of the bad. It’s the same as when we play cards. At the beginning of the game we shuffle them into a mess, which is like the bad things in the world, but the point of the game is to put the mess into good order, and the one who does it best is the winner. Then we shuffle the cards once more and play again, and so it goes with the world.' Alan Watts expresses how I feel about God and the Universe far better than I could. Take care, =)

Subject: Deputy - if you have gone to Landmark........ From: Nottm Bunny To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 17:36:23 (EDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: .....................You have just walked from one big CON to potentially an even bigger one! I only had to walk into the reception area of one of their recruitment evenings with a friend, hear the hype coming from the glazed but blissful face from one of her colleagues to sniff CULT!!!!! Needless to say, I walked straight out and took her with me. I believe the guy who founded Landmark is the same guy who started EST. Please check out http://www.rickross.com/groups/landmark.html Bunny P.S. Here's a sample: 'Landmark itself is a racket' February 21, 2001 By A Forum Graduate I recently completed the Forum, and went to the first 'Forum In Action' class last week. I have some concerns about the organization, and have decided not to continue with landmark. The following is my letter to the 'group' (we gathered into small 6 person groups at the meeting). Just wanted to let you all know that I'm not going to be continuing the Forum In Action series. I learned a lot about myself in the forum, and thought it was a powerful experience, but just think it's time to move on. Why am i not continuing, you might ask? Well, I feel in order to continue with landmark, I will have to relinquish independent thought, like for example, being able to make the claim that Landmark itself is a 'racket.' Now I know you might respond to that by saying that's MY racket, but not even being able to question the organization of Landmark makes me wonder what kind of organization it is. Researching the roots of Landmark, one wonders how much trust you can put into an organization with such a checkered past. Allegations of income tax evasion, domestic abuse, etc. Even if these were false claims, the way I see it, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it just might be a duck. I think landmark is a 'racket' because it is a paradox in and of itself. There is no way to question it, because every time you try to, it's dismissed as being your 'racket,' your problem. It's a catch 22. I also think that there is mind influencing going on here. Not necessarily brainwashing, but a definite influencing of how to look at things. And for every 'breakthrough' and every 'transformation,' the hand that's attached to that shoulder you cry on is getting closer and closer to your wallet and address book. How many of you are doing the advanced course? How many are bringing friends tonight? In your relationships with others outside of Landmark, have you noticed an 'us vs. them' dichotomy developing? How do you feel about me now? I'm not as close as I may have once been, right? Have you noticed yourself defending landmark as not the way I claim it is? But I'm still the same guy right? Why should it matter if I continue with this or not? Aren't people entitled to their own opinions? I think that one can actually distance himself from others who aren't interested in this 'technology.' Now what kind of thing is this, really? If the person you are trying to enroll doesn't want to 'buy,' how do you explain the rift that is almost always created? What makes you so right? Just because I like basketball and one of my friends doesn't, that doesn't mean she's in the dark, or enrollable to the sport. Shouldn't someone have the right to choose? And shouldn't you accept them whatever their choice? How long do you plan on being a part of this organization? When do you think you will 'get it?' I asked this question to the woman leading the action series last week. And what was her answer? 'Never,' she said. So what are you paying for? What are you devoting your time to? When is enough enough? How many courses will it take for you to figure out your 'rackets' and winning formulas? Some people are still finding new rackets to this day, and have devoted their lives to landmark. Some people are going to be a part of this until they die. If you want to devote your life to this, consider the following: There are nearly 60 landmark courses and infinite volunteer opportunities. if you want, you can easily spend the rest of your life with Landmark. You can get that fix. Isn't it the fix that you are craving? The fix that this organization provides? Isn't it just another racket? Except this racket has a name--Landmark. I challenge you to consider the possibility that Landmark itself is flawed. And seeing that imperfection is the very thing that can help bring back your independent thought, your reason, and in some ways, your mind. OR Landmark Training 'Cost Me My Job' Contact/February 17, 2000 By Peta Woodhouse and Marita Vandenberg A Wellington man says he sank into a deep depression and changed his behaviour so radically that he lost his job after completing a Landmark Education course. Aaron Cohen says he felt good about completing the first course run by Landmark - which encourages people to get out of their comfort zone, take risks and achieve goals. But the second course left him feeling ''the most depressed I have ever felt in my life.'' Mr Cohen was one of more than a dozen people to ring Contact after last week's story on Government agencies funding staff to take Landmark's personal development courses. A Landmark media spokesperson Sharon Spaulding said from Utah that people could not blame Landmark for things that go wrong in their lives. People exercise a choice in how they use the skills learned through Landmark courses. While the American-based international organisation has a low profile in New Zealand it has been dogged by controversy overseas because of its intense teaching methods and strong recruitment drive. Several government agencies including the prison service, health providers and at least one local tertiary institution have funded staff to take courses. The entry-level course called the Landmark Forum involves three consecutive 15 hour days of training during which many participants reach an emotional state called ''transformation.'' Mr Cohen says he became so disillusioned with Landmark Education that he failed to turn up to the third course for which he had paid a deposit. He says the course put participants into a vulnerable state by allowing them little time to eat, drink or even go for toilet breaks. ''We were made to feel very uncomfortable if we even left the room to go to the bathroom. A lot of people got more and more emotionally shot as the course went on.'' Mr Cohen says Landmark's assertiveness training influenced him to tell his employers at the time that he was ''unhappy with what was going on'' and to try to do things which were beyond his ability. He says he was fired as a result of his radical new behaviour. ''The course made [me into] a 19-year-old bad decision maker,'' he says. Ms Spaulding said in response to repeated criticism that participants felt pressured not to leave the room that people were able to go to the toilet. ''But we do tell people if they leave at times other than during breaks we can't promise they'll get the full value of the course.'' Ms Spaulding strongly rejected claims that Landmark participants were required to enrol others in courses. Sometimes participants were over- enthusiastic - but only in the same way that anyone who had seen a good film might insist a friend go and see it. Another caller, Alvin Ralph, says Landmark Education put his partner under so much pressure she came close to a breakdown. He says that pressure also caused the breakup of their relationship. Mr Ralph participated in a number of courses and his partner became a trainer. He thought the Forum was so good he paid for his three sons to go on it. But as he carried on with the courses he disliked the pressure being put on people and the mix of ''praise and put down.'' He said his partner was taking time off work just to memorise ''pages and pages.'' ''I had to ring them in the finish [and say] 'if you don't pull her out of this course she's going to have a breakdown.' '' Mr Ralph said the courses were ''quite good'' and there was some mending of family relationships. ''Most people who do the courses believe it to be good value.'' But he said getting involved in training others was ''a different story''. Yvonne Collin went on a course two years ago and says she came away with ''real concerns about the pressure and emotional manipulation. ''If my taxes are going to pay to put people through it then I'm concerned.'' What you learn in the end is that the only meaning in life is the meaning that you give to it, she said. She says her concern was not so much the message Landmark offered, but the pressure put on people. ''It's the business side of it that disturbs me.'' Ms Collins said she was still getting calls six months after doing the course. Another caller, Jeff, said he'd been urged during the Forum to phone his father and fix their relationship. At one point he said around five people stood next to him urging him to call his father again after his father had not wanted to talk. ''In the end my father said 'I think you are being brainwashed Jeff and should get the hell out of there'.'' At the end of the course there had been a ''real frenzy'' to sign people up for the next course, he said. Ms Spaulding responded to questions about information supplied to intending course participants. She said there was no formal prospectus outlining exactly what would happen during the course or details about the qualifications and backgrounds of the trainers. But a great deal of literature was made available including a study from Harvard University, she said. ''We get almost no requests for refunds. We have a 95 per cent customer satisfaction rate.'' Anyone who had a problem with what Landmark offered could work through a complaints procedure which involved speaking to the person responsible for that particular area of training.

Subject: Re: Deputy - if you have gone to Landmark........ From: Dep =) To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 20:06:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Notmm Bunny, Yes I've done The Landmark Forum, and like the vast majority of participants found it to be an extraordinary experience. I often recommend the course here to 'recovering premies.' According to a study conducted by a nationally recognized social scientist and public opinion analyst, 'Graduates of The Landmark Forum report immediate, significant, and unexpected positive shifts in their lives.' That’s not bad for a three-day course that costs only $350. Hell, what’s air fare to Amaroo? According to Landmark 'more than 500,000 people have participated. Over 70,000 people will participate this year. Conducted over three days and a one-evening session in a seminar setting, The Landmark Forum is not a lecture, motivational techniques or therapy, but a powerful, accelerated learning experience. More than seven out of 10 participants found The Landmark Forum to be one of their life's most rewarding experiences.” I guess I was in that 70% as it was one of my life’s most rewarding experiences. The Landmark Forum people are definitely out to make money, but IMO, they provide a truly excellent product and are obviously succeeding in the marketplace. The majority of graduates must feel they are getting their money’s worth or they wouldn’t take advanced courses or recommend it to their friends. It’s doing well. If you provide a good product or service, people are going to want it. But, unfortunately, there is always going to be someone, somewhere, who doesn’t like something. You can’t please everyone. And IMO your fears of it being a cult are ridiculous. You take the course and then you go home. That's it! And I like people who look happy and enthusiastic. Are you that jaded that you don’t? I must admit, however, that I did find the sales pitch a bit too much although I’ve since heard they have toned it down. As The Landmark Forum graduate you mention in your first letter said, 'I learned a lot about myself in the Landmark Forum, and thought it was a powerful experience, but just think it's time to move on.' Great! Take the course and then move on. That's what I did. Nothing wrong with that! How many “powerful, immediate, significant, rewarding and unexpected positive shifts in your life' can you get in three days for $350? Seems like a pretty good deal to me, particularly since they offer a money back guarantee. Check it out. Here is their official site: http://www.landmarkforum.com/landmarkforum.html

Subject: Re: Deputy - if you have gone to Landmark........ From: Nottm Bunny To: Dep =) Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:59:27 (EDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Dog, It may not fit fully into the definition of cult, but I have seen the cult mentality in many of it's particpants. And it definately fits definition of con and hype, re-hashing many well worn techniques some also employed by the likes of Antony Robbins et al. There are a lot of vultures out there ready to pounce on the lost or confused amongst some genuine good guys. One thing all of us should have learnt by now is the importance of discernment. Why don't you at least look at the site I mentioned? Bunny

Subject: Dep, are you for real? From: JHB To: Dep =) Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 20:14:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When did you do the course? After you renounced Maharaji or before? If it was after, don't you think it would be wise to allow yourself a little independent thought for a year or two before handing over money to another self-knowledge org.? John.

Subject: Re: Dep, are you for real? From: Dep To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 10:02:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When did you do the course? After you renounced Maharaji or before? If it was after, don't you think it would be wise to allow yourself a little independent thought for a year or two before handing over money to another self-knowledge org.? John. --- John, I did the course when I was a premie back in the 70s (it was called est then) and had a terrible time of it, because in those days it was conducted in a very authoritarian manner. The trainer insulted and harangued the participants in order to break them down, and as someone who has difficulty with authority figures I just rebelled. Enough of the course must have got through though because I kept thinking about it for years. I did the training again in 1989 (it was called The Landmark Forum then) and finally 'completed' it. They had significantly changed the format and tone of the training at this point, and it was much better suited to my temperament. Remember he story of the sun and the wind trying to make the traveller take his coat off? The more the wind blew the harder he held onto the coat, but when the sun came out the traveller voluntarily took his coat off. It was a bit like that. I did it again last summer (the approach this time was almost courteous) and this time it absolutely knocked my socks off. So a recalcitrant 'cement head' like me, had to do the course three times in order to get the full benefit. It’s okay to take a course if you feel it’s going to help you, isn’t it? Even for a premie. Can't they do something that will benefit them? The reason I so adamantly push The Landmark Forum here is because I see a lot of ex-premies suffering and I absolutely know the course will help them to get their lives back on track. It will IMO accelerate whatever it is they are going through. It will speed their recovery and at the same time enhance the quality of their lives, that is, take their lives to a new positive level. All this for $350. Now having said that, there are certain things about the organization that do turn me off. But the course is great and IMO will definitely benefit exes. In fact I feel it my 'service' to recommend it. And it would be interesting wouldn’t it, if an ex did the training and then reported back their experience here. =)

Subject: Yeah, but what about the book? From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 15:20:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, I urge you to read a cheap paperback book and you come back with an expensive course -- in what, I can only speculate. The book, Dog, the book. Will you read it? You could pick it up so simply, or, if you prefer, I'll send you a copy. Well?

Subject: I'm curious, Dep From: Lesley To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:32:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have come across this idea that God is playing hide and seek before, I even have some friends who really believe this, they will seriously assert that they are God, and anybody who doesn't agree, and give a knowing smile, doesn't really know where it's at. What I find so strange about this idea is how can you square away a world view that contains such a callous God, with the more traditional view of God being compassionate. To say that it's okay because he is doing it to himself is ludicrous. Like me saying I'll strip my left leg of flesh bit by bit, in one centimetre pieces, and massage coconut oil into my right leg, but it's okay because I'm doing it to myself. This is what I am curious about, doesn't it give you a chill right down your spine, doesn't it make you feel even the teensiest bit uncomfortable to seriously entertain the idea that you were made by an all powerful entity who suffers from boredom, likes playing games, and is quite happy to torture you, and what is more, it is your fault because you are doing it to yourself? In his first bestseller, The Selfish Gene, Dawkins makes an interesting statement about God. He is talking about ideas, and the way that they replicate themselves. Sorta looking on us as hapless host minds for errant idea bacteria. And he is pointing out that when one idea is accepted then often another idea piggybacks in on the first one. Such as the idea of God being piggybacked by the idea of Satan. Nobody likes to admit it these days, God's alive, Satan's dead, but Dawkins is right about that. It seems to me that this 'God playing hide and seek with himself' world view is yet another attempt to rationalise away the question of why we experience suffering if God is so bang up beaut. Reminds me a lot of how premies try to rationalise Rawat's behaviour and still retain Maharaji as their chosen one....now wasn't it a lot better, a lot more sensible, to just get rid of your belief in 'Maharaji', and along with it the need to rationalise his behaviour as acceptable in a saviour?

Subject: I'm curious, Dep - me too From: PatC To: Lesley Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 20:33:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Up until a little over a year ago I was a firm believer, like Dep, that there was no god separate from creation; that we were all collectively god; that humans were the crown of creation because we could see that everything was god; that the guru game was innocently part of the maha-lila - in other words I was a Hindu which is basically the idea that God is ''playing hide and seek'' in his creation. Even while believing that, I was sort of an atheist Buddhist in that I did not believe that there was a Prime Cause but that the creation was a reflection of the creator, Consciousness/Imagination, of which we were all part. The purpose of the guru and meditation was to purify one's consciousness until one saw that one's pure mind (unadulterated by maya) was the creator of all of creation. I still flirt with trippy stuff like that but it's beginning to sound sillier by the day - a big conjecture based probably on the fact that humans have being ingestion entheogens such as psychedelic mushrooms for at least ten thousand years. What drew me to Hinduism in the first place was the psychedelic quality of it. Even Indian art is trippy and glitzy. But Hinduism, like tinselly, gawdy Indian art is cheap and empty - especially of ethical humanism which is why all of it's gods, avatars and assorted other fakirs have all been amoral tricksters playing hide and seek in an imagnary playground. So the moral problem - the suffering and evil - is irrelevant to Hinduism. Many exes, including me, seem to be moralists which is what perhaps drove us away from the unethical Rev Rawat and his latest brand of Hindu fairy tales.

Subject: Heavenly tricksters From: Lesley To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 00:06:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Having joined the merry band at the tender age of 18, and accepting the advice that now I had the experience of God, and didn't need to bother with religion, I hadn't thought about it much until becoming an ex. Your post was very nice and clear, thanks, agreed, that about summed up my beliefs too, lol. The moral problem, the suffering and evil, may be irrelevant to Hinduism, but it sure ain't to Hindus. Fortunately, I can laugh, and laugh I do, but sometimes I cry. People's basic sense of security, of love, of peace is not something to be trifled with........ particularly for some silly game of hide and seek to alleviate the boredom of being perfect, what a joke that rationale is.

Subject: Heavenly hucksters and hustlers From: PatC To: Lesley Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:04:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There is only one thing left that sometimes makes me feel real revulsion for Rev Rawat - I mean I'm talking ''mad as hell and wanna get even'' type revulsion - and that is that he was such an empty vessel to pour our deepest devotion into. His whole trip (well he inherited it from a long line of gods in bods) is to capture our love and imagination, hopes and longings and most tender feelings. Knowledge does seem to evoke nice feelings and then he takes those feelings and directs them to himself and attributes the source of them to himself. I'm not talking something abstract here. I'm talking about our most secret hopes. This guru scam really has to stop because I doubt if there is any human being who is meant to be worshipped as god in a bod. No human is responsible or sensible enough to handle that kind of devotion. Guru worship really is disgusting and primitive. I will never forgive him for not realizing (and acting on) this after living in the west for 30 years. Instead he still flirts with premies deepest and most innocent feelings. I am really angry that he did that to me. I don't feel that anger now probably because I'm being public but, in private whenever I'm being introspective and think about his mindfuck, I feel very annoyed. Premies come here and wonder about all the anger that gets expressed. Well, unless they hang onto Rawat for good, they will one day be very annoyed with his silly little game too.

Subject: Just another creation myth From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:50:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, Thanks for Landmark but don't worry about it. CD's not finished but I'll let you know. God book -- why not hold off on that for a bit? But The Blind Watchmaker is yours if you promise to read it. No, it's not expensive, as I bet you can pick up a used copy yourself if you wanted for under $10. But, say yes and I'll send you one. You'll have to email me your address of course. Seriously.

Subject: Jim, this might explain things! From: Dep To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:54:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Again, from The Book On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are by Alan Watts: 'I have sometimes thought that all philosophical disputes could be reduced to an argument between the partisans of 'prickles' and the partisans of 'goo.' The prickly people are tough-minded, rigorous, and precise, and like to stress differences and divisions between things. They prefer particles to waves and discontinuity to continuity. The gooey people are tender-minded romantics who love wide generalisations and grand syntheses. They stress the underlying unities, and are inclined to pantheism and mysticism. Waves suit them much better than particles as the ultimate constituents of matter, and discontinuities jar their teeth like a compressed air drill. Prickly philosophers consider the gooey ones rather disgusting – undisciplined, vague dreamers who slide over hard facts like an intellectual slime which threatens to engulf the whole universe in an undifferentiated aesthetic continuum. But gooey philosophers think of their prickly colleagues as animated skeletons that rattle and click without any flesh or vital juices, as dry and desiccated mechanism bereft of all finer feelings. Either party would be hopelessly lost without the other, because there would be nothing to argue about, no one would know what his position was, and the whole course of philosophy would come to an end. As things now stand in the world of academic philosophy, the prickly people have the upper hand for some years.' Still want to send me that book? =)

Subject: Sorry, I forgot .... From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 23:38:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, What I'd really like to do is have you go out and find it yourself in a used bookstore. If you won't, yeah, I'll send it to you, so long as you promise to read it. Deal? Send me your address and it's on the way.

Subject: Re: Sorry, I forgot .... From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 13:13:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, What I'd really like to do is have you go out and find it yourself in a used bookstore. If you won't, yeah, I'll send it to you, so long as you promise to read it. Deal? Send me your address and it's on the way. --- Jim, I'm re-sending you the following message because I strongly suspect from the above response that you didn't read it. ********************************************************* Again, from The Book On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are by Alan Watts: 'I have sometimes thought that all philosophical disputes could be reduced to an argument between the partisans of 'prickles' and the partisans of 'goo.' The prickly people are tough-minded, rigorous, and precise, and like to stress differences and divisions between things. They prefer particles to waves and discontinuity to continuity. The gooey people are tender-minded romantics who love wide generalisations and grand syntheses. They stress the underlying unities, and are inclined to pantheism and mysticism. Waves suit them much better than particles as the ultimate constituents of matter, and discontinuities jar their teeth like a compressed air drill. Prickly philosophers consider the gooey ones rather disgusting – undisciplined, vague dreamers who slide over hard facts like an intellectual slime which threatens to engulf the whole universe in an undifferentiated aesthetic continuum. But gooey philosophers think of their prickly colleagues as animated skeletons that rattle and click without any flesh or vital juices, as dry and desiccated mechanism bereft of all finer feelings. Either party would be hopelessly lost without the other, because there would be nothing to argue about, no one would know what his position was, and the whole course of philosophy would come to an end. As things now stand in the world of academic philosophy, the prickly people have had the upper hand for some years.' Still want to send me that book? ********************************************************* Get in now Mr. Prickly? =)

Subject: No, I didn't get it -- spell it out From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 14:41:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If your point is simply that you're a 'gooey' person, whatever, eh? As far as I'm concerned, this is just some stupid thing Alan Watts wrote. It has no real meaning to me so what do you want me to do with it? Are you actually using this to say that you're not interested in how we evolved into human beings?

Subject: Re: No, I didn't get it -- spell it out From: =) Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:09:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If your point is simply that you're a 'gooey' person, whatever, eh? As far as I'm concerned, this is just some stupid thing Alan Watts wrote. It has no real meaning to me so what do you want me to do with it? Are you actually using this to say that you're not interested in how we evolved into human beings? --- Alan Watts was making a distinction between different types of people. A useful distinction IMO. No, I don't need another theory on how we evolved into human beings. I have enough theories. Unless, of course, you promise me that this theory will: - help me relax and feel better, - improve my health, - help me deal with the day to day stresses of life, and - help with the car payments. =)

Subject: Where is your answer Mr. Prickly? [nt] From: Dep To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 22:44:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: A threat to Deputy Dog From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:05:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, Can you be more specific? What happened? Who said you threatened Deputy Dog by saying you'd send him a copy of the Blind Watchman? Did I miss something?

Subject: Re: A threat to Deputy Dog From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 18:12:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia! I don't know if you're joking or not - it's hard sometimes when you can't see someone's face. Anyway, I think Jim's just having a bit of fun trying to get Dog to read the book. In fact I think I'm going to have to go and buy it myself. I probably still need a bit of an overhaul in the spiritual concepts department. I'll let you all know how it goes. Livia, off on a spending spree

Subject: :):):) [nt] From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:09:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re smileys [nt] From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 18:59:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: DOH!!!

Subject: An Ex-Premie Folk Hero is Born From: John Macgregor To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 12:33:02 (EDT) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: As suspected, the mystery man at the gate of Amaroo yesterday with the protest sign was local resident, DLM founder, former Australian WPC Chief, environmental activist and ex-premie Neville Ackland. Neville rang me tonight with details of his exploit - which, quite naturally, he found rather challenging inasmuch as he did it all alone in a sea of nearly 3000 premies. Neville’s large sign read: MAHARAJI: I GAVE YOU MY HEART. YOU BROKE IT AND DIDN’T CARE. From time to time he would flip it over to reveal the other side, which read: MAHARAJI: MASTER OF DECEIT, LIAR, COWARD AND FOOL. I DARE YOU TO FACE ME, IN OR OUT OF COURT. Neville’s strategy, he said, was to get Maharaji to sue him for defamation, whereupon he would be able to air his and other ex-premies’ grievances in an open courtroom. Neville appeared with his sign at Amaroo’s front gate at 3pm yesterday (Sunday). First up, he reported to the police stationed at the gate, and conferred with them on what their rules were, so he could avoid breaking the law. He spent the best part of an hour showing a policeman copious materials he had printed off the EPO website. ‘The policeman’s eyes,’ he said, ‘nearly popped out of his head.’ As all the premies at this time were inside the site, making their way to the program, he then went over to a born-again Christian parking attendant, who was reading his Bible under a gumtree, and shared his views and the EPO materials with him as well. Apparently the chap was highly supportive. At 4pm a paid (outside) EV PR consultant drove up, having been alerted to Neville’s presence, and began a discussion with him. Neville said the guy became (at least outwardly) very sympathetic after he explained his feelings. Next on the scene was an elderly American gentleman with a ten-gallon hat. (This is where it gets a bit surreal.) The American, who was accompanied by a lady a few years younger, stated that he was not a premie, but had been personally invited to the event by Maharaji. It turned out that he had been one of Maharaji’s flying instructors. Then the paid staff began leaving the site in buses: Neville dutifully displayed his sign to them. First to appear from the program itself was one of the attending exes I mentioned yesterday. S/he gave Neville a big hug, and told him the program was ‘the same old shit’, and they exchanged phone numbers and agreed to catch up. Next, as hundreds - indeed more likely thousands - of premies began leaving the site (all thru the front gate) after the last program concluded at about dusk, Neville again displayed his sign prominently. He naturally got catcalls - tho nothing too aggressive or obscene. As this sea of often antagonistic people swarmed past Neville, the elderly gentleman came up with his lady and stood on either side of him, to express solidarity. It turns out the old guy was himself active in the environmental movement in his home state, where he had sometimes been marginalised by the majority. ‘I know what it’s like to be lonely,’ he said, as he observed Neville amidst an ocean of often hostile premies. He said repeatedly how much he admired what Neville was doing. Fearing that someone might bother or threaten Neville, the old guy and his lady stood shoulder to shoulder with him the whole time - till the numbers began to dissipate. During this lengthy period several things happened. Firstly, Neville talked ten-to-the-dozen to the couple about what he saw as Maharaji’s misdemeanours. (No-one who knows Neville will be surprised to hear this: he is an excellent talker.) The PR consultant came over and took copious notes of the conversation. By this time it was fairly dark, so the area was floodlit. The light near Neville was switched off, so the premies leaving the site couldn’t read his sign. However this had the effect of drawing most people close so they could read it: it was assumed that this was an official EV sign conveying important information. So not many people missed the message. The old guy, who knows Maharaji well, took photos of Neville and his sign, and promised he would give them to Maharaji. Another cop came up and asked Neville if he intended to come back tomorrow. Neville had been forewarned by the first cop that this (for reasons that are beyond me) would be against the law - ‘expressing an intention to obstruct lawful pedestrian traffic’ or somesuch. Neville (truthfully) said no. A gigantic and very annoyed premie appeared - Neville said he’d never seen anyone so large: nearly seven feet - and said: ‘This is most inappropriate!’ But he was pacified and sent on his way by the old American guy. ‘The premies were terrified,’ Neville reported. ‘In that situation you realise that you do have a lot of power. It was a very liberating experience.’ Neville went home and celebrated the day with a bottle of champagne. After unwinding a little, he rang an EV person who had given him her number at the gate, and had asked him to call her. He’s forgotten her name for the moment - but said she has been a ‘front row type’ for many years. The woman said that what he was doing was ‘very bad karma’. Neville said not to worry: he was sure Maharaji would not get to know about the protest at the gate. ‘Oh Maharaji knows,’ the woman said. ‘And he is not happy!!’ At 10.30pm the phone rang: it was a very supportive EV person, Keith Brewster (Keith was in the Adelaide ashram with Neville and I in the 1970s) wanting to set up a meeting between Neville and some EV people next morning. Neville said Keith’s friendly and supportive approach made him realise ‘that premies could be good people’. Neville said he wanted to talk to Maharaji personally. Keith said he didn’t think that would be possible. So Neville suggested Valerio and Jan McGregor. Valerio was the chap whom M sent to Australia in early 1998 to sort out the Amaroo Mutiny. At the end of the Mutiny, all the malefactors, including yours truly, had buckled under Valerio’s influence, and admitted the error of their ways. All except Neville, who stood firm - loudly and publicly - with his objections to the way EV and Amaroo were run. He was of course marginalised permanently. Anyway, next morning (i.e. this morning) at 9.30 Neville appeared as arranged at the Amaroo gate, and spent ten minutes telling the cop stationed there of Maharaji’s failings. He was then ushered into a meeting with Valerio and Jan McGregor - Keith was also present. (Jan is the former manager of Amaroo, and is now, if I’m not mistaken, working in the PR area.) Neville began by telling Valerio: ‘I was here to protest, and to challenge Maharaji to take me to court for defaming him. My beef is not with you, but with Maharaji, who spiritually violated me.’ Valerio replied: ‘I can only talk to you about your problems with me - you did ask to see me. I don’t have anything to do with these other issues.’ Neville responded: ‘Well the “other issues” go to the core of my complaint. However, you did manipulate me in a meeting after the Amaroo Mutiny.’ (This is when Neville’s marginalisation was set in place.) ‘Maharaji is not God’s bootlace, and the fact is he led us to believe he was God. Just as I want [Australian Prime Minister] John Howard to apologise to generations of Aboriginals for what white culture has done to them, so I want Maharaji to apologise for the damage he has caused premies. The aspirants are still not told about what really goes on in Maharaji’s world. ‘And with the local community in this region you have dug your own grave. The heightened security and the chronic secrecy about this place have turned the whole area against you. ‘My goal is to get Maharaji out of Amaroo, and then out of Australia, permanently. 'I regard this meeting as a ceasefire in a war. If we can’t negotiate terms, I will continue with my campaign.’ They didn’t negotiate terms. After 35 minutes Valerio had had enough, and began looking at his watch. The meeting concluded. Neville spent another 35 minutes on the way out conversing with yet another cop on the gate, and showing him all the stuff off EPO. Neville is, as he expresses it, ‘in the lion’s mouth’. He lives near Amaroo - having moved there from another state in the mid-1990s to do service. He has not been a part of the exoduses of premies in Brisbane and northern NSW, having reached his conclusions about M and K by himself, through many years of close-hand observation and thru reading EPO. So he is very much alone out there in the bush. It would be nice if exes here showed him a little support. He has no Internet connection right at the moment. However his phone number is 07 5463 5687 (or 61 7 5463 5687 from overseas). His postal address is: Neville Ackland MS 461 Kalbar Queensland 4309 Australia (He gave me permission to publish these.) Particularly valuable would be printouts from EPO, and other materials that anyone has. The ever-intrepid Neville wants a team to join him at the next event. He has a lovely property on the edge of a national park (I’ve stayed there often - it’s a beautiful part of the world), with a huge caravan and plenty of extra sleeping accommodation, plus a campsite for tent-pitchers. (The place is set up professionally for groups of guests.) Neville wants to conduct another ‘legal and peaceful protest’ at Amaroo. He suggests that exes from other parts of Australia and the world come and stay with him at event time. He envisages that, as well as doing the protest, people will have a holiday, and engage in constructive activities such as sign-making workshops. His basic aim is to get Maharaji to listen to ex-premies’ grievances and to respond. As well as EPO materials and the like, I’m sure Neville would be open to friendly letters, phone calls and marriage proposals. He is good-looking, with an excellent physique from all the outdoor work he does on his farm, and his hobbies are... Oh look, maybe I’ll leave that for another post. Best Regards, John

Subject: To Drug Squad From: Neville via JMcG (dictated) To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:14:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was expecting this. DS, you can do your worst. I wanted to protest at the April event, and suspected an attack of this sort might occur. So right now I’m feeling good about myself. I can do without the stress of a 12-foot marijuana plant amongst the tomatoes whilst I put myself in the spotlight. If I really want to smoke I just have to go over to my mate’s place. I must confess I’m an old hippie at heart. I only drink on special occasions, and I do enjoy a smoke with my mates. Alas in my younger days I was a bit of a larrikin. But being a single Dad to a 13-year-old son has taught me the value of discipline. So Mr DS, do what you want. I’m okay about it. I might do the same to you if I were furious, and didn’t stop to think about it. But I would regret it, because it would be a deliberate personal attack on someone who was most probably once a friend. Ideally, attack my message to Maharaji. The message was not directed at premies. My plan is clear and upfront, as I explained to Jan, Valerio and Keith. I feel I have been spiritually violated by a corrupt man, who claimed divinity, taught bhakti yoga, the yoga of devotion, and total surrender to the guru, claimed exclusive rights on four meditation techniques, and had a Dad in the business. When it looked like telling people they had to surrender every day - and give all their money - wasn’t working any more, Maharaji recalled lots of evidence and changed his image. How can Maharaji explain how one can be the saviour of the planet and perfect master one minute, and a ‘simple teacher’ with the gift of Knowledge the next? Of course this sounds preposterous, because it is. Nevertheless, he didn’t need to explain it to us premies, because we knew, didn’t we, that he was still our Guru Maharaji, Lord of the Universe, in disguise? Our little secret has developed into a culture of self-deception at Ivory’s Rock Conference Centre. Faithful old premies are often very sincere in their commitment to Maharaji. I acknowledge your sincerity, and understand what it’s like to have your sincerity rudely affronted. (By a dangerous man like me.) My accusations are serious and defamatory - directed at Maharaji, not premies. I want Maharaji to admit it’s been a balls-up and retire, that’s all. He has forced my hand by surrounding himself with security, and being unapproachable. For me personally, I want to confront injustice wherever I find it. Maharaji is only one of my projects. Oh, by the way, I’m up the second drive on the right down Mt Greville Road. There’s a Ned Kelly helmet for a letterbox, and a big sign on the tree that says: REFUGEES WELCOME Fools rule Our leaders are liars So you can’t miss it. Maybe phone first to make sure I’m home. So, no hard feelings. Hi to everyone on the ex-premie forum, and thanks for the support. And thanks to John for taking down this letter. Neville PS: I apologise if the policemen, the PR person or the elderly gentleman are embarrassed by the fact that, in telling my story to John, I inadvertently involved others.

Subject: MATES? From: silvia To: Neville via JMcG (dictated) Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:59:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: courageous being:ALL POWER TO YOU AND WHOEVER MAY JOIN THE PLAN! Do you drink mate?

Subject: I'll drop a note, my hat's off to him! From: Tonette To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:48:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: BTY, about the marriage proposal, can you tell me how old he is? His body is in great physical shape, okay. How's his teeth? Just kidding about the mail order man idea but in concept (oh no, not a concept screams my cult addled brain) an actuality that has worked in the past, only it was mail order bride. Reminds me of the story behind the movie, 'Piano.' Thanks for your post. Interesting and juicy. Regards, Tonette

Subject: AND YOU JUST COOKED HIS GOOSE From: The Drug Squad To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 00:59:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh we know what his hobbies are Macgregor. you silly twit you very silly twit

Subject: who is afraid of rawat??? From: salsa To: The Drug Squad Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:09:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that is what he wants us to feel. Screw him and all his zombies. THE STORY NEEDS TO COME OUT! My 15 yrs old son LIKES MAHARAJI/RAWAT, just because his stupid father is still a premie. How many poor people have to be sacrificez, their lives wasted in stupid dreams to satisfy his greed??? ENOUGH RAWAT, ENOUGH!

Subject: dont worry salsa, From: bill To: salsa Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:35:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your 13 year old likes his dad, wait, just a couple years from now, dad will be an alien to him. It cant be stopped. He will find his own way.

Subject: Another page from the cult playbook From: Marianne To: The Drug Squad Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:19:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee Drug Squad, I guess you are more concerned with someone smoking a couple of joints than you are with the sexual abuse of children committed by Mahatma Jagdeo, the employee of DLM/EV and Rawat. You certainly have your priorities straight! Thanks also for threatening Neville in this manner. Whenever you guys do this stuff, you just show how deeply mired in cult think you are. Making these kinds of threats and throwing this kind of dirt at someone who simply stood with a sign criticizing your master is exactly what the people around Jim Jones did to the folks who dared leave Peoples Temple and expose Jones' craziness. This is also what the Scientologists do to their critics. Yes, better that a thousand people should stand around fawning over a greedy hasbeen like Maharaji than working to protect the rights of aboriginal people. Yeah, right. Marianne

Subject: Re: Another page from the cult playbook From: david m To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:00:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right on Marianne...Your response is right on target...I really do not understand how this bull crap still exists...talk about burring you head in the sand...Peace...david m david m

Subject: Re: Another page from the cult playbook From: david m To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:00:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right on Marianne...Your response is right on target...I really do not understand how this bull crap still exists...talk about burring you head in the sand...Peace...david m david m

Subject: Thanks for saying that, Marianne [nt] From: Cynthia To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:14:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: You are interested in hobbies? From: Nottm Bunny To: The Drug Squad Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 03:22:11 (EDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Would you care to know more about some of the hobbies of the Speaker, sorry, Foundation Director and his children too? Were you involved in CAC also? What happened to the bliss and all that love? Bunny

Subject: does he need a computer? From: bill To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 19:39:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How much money per month does internet time cost there?

Subject: Anyone know? From: bill To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:30:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does he need a computer and is he poor? Having been a festival site worker for years would leave me to believe he has little for himself. He IS someone who should have access to the forum since he is such a squeaky wheel. He needs to vent. And he does have a long history of involvement. Does he type?

Subject: Question John... From: Cynthia To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:20:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Was the elderly man with the 10 gallon hat named Charles? If so, I knew him. Nice to hear about his solidarity but why's he still friends with Prem Pal Rawat? Great Report...exciting!

Subject: M has a friend? From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:21:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's big news. There was only one other non-premie that I was aware M was friendly with. Joe Gould, owner of the Kittredge Building in Denver was DLM's landlord. I recall M treated him like a father figure and maybe even a business mentor. The only social interaction M ever talked about was how he answered a question from one of his fellow flight school students. The guy, breaking the ice, asked 'So why do you always wear suits to class when the rest of us dress casual?' M's cozy reply was 'Because I can afford to.' Ha ha, the Captain sure is a joker, let's invite him out for drinks after class.

Subject: Re: M has a friend? From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:12:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember the video that Prem Rawat said that thing about 'I can afford to.' Weird. Nice social skills in the world outside himself. And a 'resplendent casual red shirt.' I never saw a resplendent shirt before, any guesses? Nice to talk to you Richard.

Subject: Of COURSE He does... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:10:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... He has MILLIONS of friends all over the world, friends who's names He doesn't even know, but He loves them anyway. And YES, He even has friends who don't have That Understanding, even though it does make them "like" dead people. Is there some special rule that says The Master can't have friends who are "like" dead people? You ex-students can be so silly sometimes! Catweasel has been patiently trying to let you know how wonderful the event really was, but you just can't hear him, because you are all to busy filtering out the good. We ALL have a wonderful friend in Catweasel, but you ex-students just don't appreciate him. Poor Kitty, you do try his patience sometimes! I somtimes wonder why he or I, or dear Mili or others even bother trying to communicate to you people at all. You just WON'T shut up and LISTSEN! :| No, you just want to wallow in unhappiness by insisting on asking pesky questions, which do you no good at all. Doesn't ANYONE appreciate the BRILLIANCE of The Master, in having a question and answers session, without the questions? As Prem explained so simply, people need ANSWERS, not questions! You never hear any other so-called "spiritual teachers" saying anything like that! I think Prem is really just too profound for the world, which explains why he is so underappreciated. And let's face it, NO ONE can tell fart jokes like The Master! Andrea Eriksonn, Who thought the event was DIVINE, and who was NOT in the communal showers with Pauline (only in your DREAMS, Dickie dear! b)), and who thought that Neville person with the sign was really quite rude, and who also knows that if he would just SHUT up and LISTEN, he wouldn't have those conflicts. :)

Subject: What a positive Spin with From: Cat To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:19:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: more than a little deceit you put on such a sad and isolated action. Quite frankly Neville's action was irrelevant to attendees after a wonderful event. Simply most people saw it as a little forlorn and sad. John ,you cant spin us, we were there. People were kind to Neville, that is all. Old friends greeted him but nothing more was going on. And the guy in the Hat? Well I'm sure some-one wanted to watch over young Nev; what do you think? Just my guess. The fact is John, apart from a bunch of about 5 or 6 people that you have been mentioning ,every-one else was overjoyed with the events. It does you little credit to twist things like this. You begin to look like a propagandist who will say anything to score points. PS;Is Neville going to charge rego? You could have a 'meeting' to find out?

Subject: Re: What a positive Spin with From: goshala To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 20:41:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: your writing reads like gossip.You seem to need the feeling that people are moving away from Maharaji in droves to support your own point of veiw. Is'nt it about time you dropped the term ex-premie. Who wants any label,be it premie, non-premie or ex-premie. What is the point of all this energy being used to continually point out all Maharajis so called failings. People do and are benifiitng from their contact with him and when they feel it is not working anymore they move away by their own accord. Of your many years of contact with Maharaji can you honestly say you never benefited in any way?

Subject: Re: What a positive Spin with From: The Other Neville To: goshala Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:55:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: About as much as I benefited from having my house robbed. The non-heroic, non-Australian Neville

Subject: To Goshala From: Will To: goshala Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:40:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Goshala, I am not John and maybe John will answer you directly, but in the meantime I would like to address your question. You write some explicit questions, but there is a general implicit question behind them all. You seem to not understand the motivation behind the struggle against Prem Rawat by some of his former students. Your main point is that there is a benefit provided by Rawat to some people, and it is best to let that benefit happen and just walk away if it is not personally beneficial. I beg to differ about your assertion of benefit. First, though, I must acknowledge that I agree with you that there are some benefits to pursuing truth in one's life, so premies may receive that benefit, but that benefit is an entirely natural outcome of being alive and learning life's lessons. However, the harm of following a supposed Master who is a savior figure and joining his personality cult is very real. At first, the harm may not be evident, and indeed, all current members of cults believe that they are benefiting. May I give you an extreme, but very real, example? The Heaven's Gate cult was lead by the Master named Marshall Applewhite who explicitly taught that he had the access to the true knowledge. All his followers thought they were benefiting, but 39 of them ended up commiting suicide expecting to land on the Hale-Bopp comet as it flew by. Ok, maybe premies are not quite that far out, and who knows, maybe all the Heaven's Gate people are living happily ever after on Hale-Bopp, but the point is that we must be very vigilant about being led astray by false teachers. Prem Rawat is a false teacher because he doesn't have the true Knowledge or the power to bestow God's grace on anyone, yet he allows people to kiss his feet thinking that they are receiving God's grace. This is insane, and you should stop kissing that guy's feet. You should quit ignoring all the facts about Prem Rawat that have been gathered here and face the fact that he is a very typical false savior figure. Now you may not personally agree with my assessment, but I hope that now you at least understand the ex-premie viewpoint and would now naturally understand why we would want to fight against Prem Rawat instead of just going away quietly with our tales between our legs, pun intended. Hope that answers your main question.

Subject: Re: To Goshala From: Gail To: Will Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:18:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Will: Your post make me spit my coffee all over the keyboard. Thanks for the laugh: Goshala: Are you that former seventeen-year-old instructor who could only say, 'Oh my gosh, Maharaji!' Indeed, this forum is not gossip. Many people are moving away from Maharaji. The term 'premie' was conveyed upon us by our Lord Maharaj Ji. Now that we are no longer one of his flock, ex-premie is a good term because its easily identified by anyone who was in the cult. Some folks, you must remember, left Maharaji decades ago, but the brainwashing number he did on them is still strong (sort of like a non-practicing Catholic) who still believes the whole diatribe and feels guilty for not attending church. Maharaji has many failings. His biggest one is his pompous parading around as the Emperor of Divinity when, in fact, he is the emperor with no clothes. The only benefit of cult belief system and an avatar (Maharaji) is that people do not have to face themselves or others. Why do you think mothers in labour are encouraged to follow their breath--TO BLOCK OUT THE PAIN. That is the only thing the techniques do. There is nothing wrong with using the techniques as a crutch upon occasion, but they certainly don't give you a bird's eye view of GOD. You mention ' when it's not working anymore they move away by their own accord.' How, my dear Goshala, can 'it' not work. We have the four aces--satsang, service, mediation, and darshan. Tell me you don't believe that Maharaji is the Lord of Lords, King of Kings to this day. It doesn't work, Goshala, because it never did. It was each of us, releasing our feel-good brain chemicals at the sight of our Lord in just the same way dogs can be trained to salivate. Some people just get tired of lying to themselves a little sooner than others. Haven't you noticed that it takes more and more effort on your part for less and less bliss (endorphins). In fact, in may well be that we severely depleted our endorphin supplie on Maharaji and his crud. You don't get high on medication. You get high on the idea of being with Maharaji, Lord of the Universe. That's the benefit--being one of the special, chosen ones. It's sick.

Subject: Excellent reply, Gail(& Will) to Goshallow From: Marshall To: Gail Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 20:11:18 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Hi Gail, That was a great reply to that goshala person(?). As I recall you and I discovered the forum around about the same time, you started as Iola, and you were still pretty brainwashed. Actually you were the first premie I had ever witnessed being de-programmed by this website. Too bad that this website isn't enough for everybody(like CPG...and my parents). Bye, Marshall

Subject: Hi Marshall==It's been four years since I was Iola From: Gail To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 20:29:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks to you and others, I managed to escape this rot in June, 98. Too bad your parents haven't seen the light yet. I hope all is well with you.

Subject: Re: To Goshala From: OOPS, I meant To: Gail Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:23:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You don't get high on meditation. You get high on the idea of being with Maharaji, Lord of the Universe. That's the benefit--being one of the special, chosen ones. It's sick.

Subject: Good post! nt From: silvia To: Will Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:16:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: aha

Subject: Errr....Excuse me:) From: Cat To: goshala Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 23:50:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: are you mad? Can you read English?

Subject: Re: Errr....Excuse me:) From: Catweasel To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 23:51:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are you speaking to me or John?

Subject: Re: What a positive Spin with From: goshala To: goshala Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 20:47:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My email was intented for John Macgregor not this person.

Subject: wiseal. hahahahahaha nt From: truth To: goshala Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:17:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: aha

Subject: Re: What a positive Spin with From: Roger eDrek To: goshala Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 23:20:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, goshala, but your message is read by all of us and what you are saying to John you are saying to us as well and I personally believe that you are missing a huge point here and that is that we believe that Maharaji is a fraud and the 'experience' that you talk about is really coming from within and exists without Maharaji who in my opinion is a greedy self-serving asshole who envisions himself as GOD. And don't give me any revisionsist bullshit that claims he has never portrayed himself as God because I was there.

Subject: Hey Cat... From: Cynthia To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:23:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You just got darshan we don't expect you to be thinking clearly. Also, if Prem is so gosh darn great why do you need to be posting here during a festival? Geeze. Lighten up, you just saw your LORD!

Subject: Re: Hey Cat... From: Cat To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:28:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Facts are good.They dispel bullshit

Subject: Re: Hey Cat...How ya doin' From: Gail To: Cat Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:15:51 (EDT) Email Address: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com Message: I hope you are doing well. How's the deprogramming going (just kidding)? I trust there were no lunatic chefs at Daya's to insult the unpaid help, eh? I hope you didn't work too hard this weekend and had a good time (if that's possible). I'd love to talk to you by phone again. You can call me on my quarter. If you do e-mail me, I won't give it out to anyone else. Gail

Subject: If this is 'bullshit' From: Carl To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 18:00:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: why do you care to wallow in it? Why immediately jump into the ex-forum? Methinks you are fascinated with, and not a little intrigued by, the truth spoken here.

Subject: Re: If this is 'bullshit' From: AV To: Carl Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 18:22:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: O! A Rotten eve, ma!

Subject: Re: If this is 'bullshit' From: The Barmaid To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:03:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Too many ? Too quick? A wind up?

Subject: Fantastic story From: Jim To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 14:46:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey John, Great story. I'm keeping this number and will try to say hi to Neville sometime soon. Fantastic!

Subject: Most enjoyable, John. Big thanks, Neville [nt] From: PatC To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 14:43:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Neville you are a star!!!(NT) From: Nottm Bunny To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 13:48:27 (EDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message:

Subject: What a great guy..... From: PatD To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 12:51:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....it takes serious balls to do something like that. I'll send him stuff,though why does anyone need a'workshop'to write a sign? Just being literal & pedantic.

Subject: I don't get it.. From: AV To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 13:34:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't get it.. M could have met the guy and talked, maybe resolved a lot of stuff for a lot of people, what can he possibly gain from a standoff? wounds need healing and divisions mending....you can't send in deputies when it's personal.

Subject: Re: I don't get it.. From: PatD To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 16:07:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't really understand what you don't get. He isn't interested in healing wounds & never has been.He's interested in maintaining himself in the style to which he's accustomed. The divisions he made himself, the better to rule. Why would he want to mend them? The ashes of our old dreams are bitter.I don't think any explanation he could make would be sufficient.No,the only satisfactory outcome to all this,will be when he's pinned up against the wall, having the piss taken out of him by whoever. Time is coming soon.(fingers crossed)

Subject: Re: I don't get it.. From: Gail To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:24:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji's trip can be compared to any illness. Once you admit your addiction (whatever it might be) to your loved ones, you are on the road to recovery. He cannot afford to recover, let alone allow the exs to. It would be the end of his income, and more importantly, the end of his euphoric highs at his 'programs.' He can't affort that!

Subject: Some things are priceless Gail... From: Cynthia To: Gail Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:54:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1. An oppulent home on Malibu bluff - $20 Million? 2. A 101 foot yacht - $7 Million; 3. A Gulfstream V - $40 Million; 4. A wife and a girlfirend - (any wagers?):); 5. Prem Rawat, Head of a Cult and God-In-A-Bod since age 8 - Priceless!

Subject: Re: Some things are priceless, Cynthia.. From: Gail To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:33:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep! That just about sums ($$) it all up. How can he end it all when EV assets will be given to some real charity or non-profit group such as save the hopeless. Imagine maharaji's residence being inhabited by the street scum of California? Can you see his jet being used to fly ill patients in for pro bono work! Of course, we can forget the yacht! Perhaps Green Peace could harness it to encourage bigwigs into leaving their legacies to the whales and seals. Think of the good use the assets could be put to! As for Monica--she could head the New Morality Majority. After all, she might as well put her training to good use. She certainly sold out for her rightful place in Nirvana. Check her resume--Have spent the last 20 years as a purchaser of fine trinkets for God-in-a-Bod. Who wouldn't want to hire her?

Subject: to Pat D From: AV To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:06:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess I was hoping something human might happen.... silly me

Subject: FYI From: Hmmmmmmmm..... To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 12:30:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Non-Profit Corporations Summary: A corporation that has a primary goal of public service and is not intended to distribute dividends to its shareholders. Advantages: Tax-exemption status. Tax-deductible donations. Disadvantages: Irrevocable assets. Subject to IRS approval. Full Description: A nonprofit corporation is an incorporated business which gains tax-exemption by primarily serving the community. Upon approval, the IRS will grant the designation of 501-c3, which means that a specific group has gained tax-exempt status. Tax-exempt corporations are free from paying income taxes. Another great benefit for these corporations is that donations given to them are tax-deductible for their donors. This is a very important part of the 501-c3 tax code, as grants and general donors play a large role in the fundraising efforts of most nonprofit corporations. Shareholders of a nonprofit corporation, as well as its directors, officers, and employees enjoy the same limited personal liability as do their counterparts in other types of corporations. Of course, with all of these benefits, there are certain restrictions: Assets gained by a nonprofit corporation must stay within the corporation. When a nonprofit corporation is dissolved, all of its assets must be given to another 501-c3 organization. A nonprofit organization must pay its paid employees and management reasonable salaries. These salaries are expected to increase the ability of the corporation to benefit the community and are not expected to make up a significant part of its budget. A nonprofit organization may not officially campaign for or against any candidate who is running for office. Glossary: Stock: A certificate representing ownership interest in a specific corporation. Stockholder: A full or partial owner of a corporation through the possession of stock. Tax-Exemption Status: A status recognized by the IRS which is designated as 501-c3. All profits generated by a tax-exempt entity are generally untaxable. Of course, the primary objective of a tax-exempt entity is expected to benefit the community. Unlimited Personal Liability: An owner (sole proprietor or general partner) assumes total responsibility of all debts incurred by his company. That means that his personal holdings, effects, and property are at risk to meet the financial obligations of his business. An owner and his business are legally the same entity. If an owner is married, then all community property of the marriage is also subject to loss.

Subject: belief and rationalisation From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 17:23:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just been reading a book I was given years ago called 'Sai Baba, Lord of the Air'. Never really read it properly before. It was published in 1979 and written by an ex-Baba devotee. He describes his experiences of going for private audiences with Sai Baba, who basically sexually abused him. I can't believe, actually, that this book came out 20 years ago and yet the Baba devotees are only just getting wise to what their guru's been up to. Anyway, this guy, Tal Brooke, describes his feelings when the abuse took place. Obviously he was stunned at first but then his mind quickly created rationalisations, such as 'he's doing it to explode my concepts' or 'he's so pure it can't possibly be sexual' or 'how deluded can I be to possibly doubt him' etc etc. Lots of talk in the book about 'Baba's grace' and coincidences galore brought about by said grace. There's even a transcript of a discourse where Baba claims himself to be the greatest avatar, incarnated at this time to save all.... What was really interesting was the time it took the devotees to see through him, even though he was actually having sex with countless (male) disciples. For years the ones that knew all kept it to themselves. Of course now with the internet it's all coming out and his (Western) devotees are leaving in droves. Obviously the problem is that when you accept a master as perfect, you then go on to rationalise everything they do. When I first looked at EPO I laughed out loud at the very idea that Maharaji could possibly be interested in money for its own sake. I just could not believe it. No wonder Maharaji doesn't like to give Knowledge to anyone until they have suspended all disbelief about him What if the meditation worked without any belief in him? Then where would he be? Premies really need to think this all through, for their own sakes. It actually made me feel quite sad today, to read John McGregor's informant's description of the old premies at Amaroo. It's true. You only have to look at the old premies in Passages - or talk face to face with any old premies today. For the most part, they seem to be quite lost. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: belief and rationalisation From: The Other Neville To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:56:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My favourite line from 'The Lord of the Air': 'As I stood on a street corner reading in Newsweek about some thirteen-year-old wonder known as Maharaj Ji, I suddenly vomited.' Neville (not the Australian heroic one)

Subject: Re: belief and rationalisation From: Livia To: The Other Neville Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 18:05:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know, I saw that. In fact he mentions Maharaji a couple of times in the book. He was in India from 69-71 just when the first Westerners were coming across both Maharaji and Sai Baba. I wonder what Maharaji and Sai Baba think of each other... Love, Livia

Subject: Re: belief and rationalisation From: The Other Neville To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:15:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'I wonder what Maharaji and Sai Baba think of each other...' It would be fun to put them both in a room and watch the outcome. The non-heroic Neville

Subject: Big thank you OT From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 14:08:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for what you said below , re waltz with the witchdoctor, needed that Much love, u saved the day btw

Subject: Hats off to the Witch Doctor, he told From: The Witch Doctor To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:37:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: me what to say and he said: OOO EEEE OOO EEEE AAAA BING BANG BULA WALA WING WANG OOO EEEE OOO EEEE AAAA BING BANG BANG WALA WING WANG In other words, the Perfect Master said absolute nothing of any value, and we gave ourselves over to that. Amazing, isn't it>

Subject: Visions Online gets honest From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 11:04:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Click on the above link. Honesty is the best policy realmaharaji.bravepages.com/Visions/visions.htm

Subject: maharaji (RAWAT) this, maharaji that From: silvia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 14:45:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: is all about him, the egomaniac greedy bastard! HE IS NOT AN HONEST PERSON. Don't you all think that it needs to stop? He deceives people. He makes tons of money for which he should pay taxes. He lives in my country USA and as a taxpayer I have a huge problem with his dirty, irresponsible practices in his sick enviroment. Do you? I said here before, I had a service at a Long Beach event in sales and saw what REALLY goes on. The sales of trinkets, his photos (some expensive as $850), videos, etc., a lot is bought with cash. Also, SEVERAL TIMES A DAY a premie came to collect the cash and believe me, his bag was FULL, FAT OF CASH. This hidding of the cash is going on for decades and the gov. doesn't think nothing of it? What are our testimonies, french fries? Rawat/maharaji is a disgusting person and I hope all catches up with him, soon. The sad things is that little by little, and for many of us over decades, m has programmed people to accept the fact that he makes people dependant on him and weak to pathetic levels and still people stay in the cult, they're afraid to leave, due to all 'threats' the master made....The brainwashing goes to such a deep level that people are willing to let themselves abused by their so called GOD maharaji? The premies I know cannot discussed the subject openly, they make ilogic choices. Having a logic conversation with premies is impossible when it comes to discussing THE LORD. Healthy bunch? What a bondage, and it goes AS LEGAL?

Subject: Amaroo event numbers well down From: John Macgregor To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 09:38:49 (EDT) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: You’ll all be pleased to hear that there was a strong ex-premie contingent at this weekend’s international Amaroo event, which concluded a few hours ago. Several very recent exes were inside, ostensibly doing the premie thing - and gasping in amazement at what a lot of tosh they’d fallen for in times gone by. (They haven’t gone public yet with their defections.) Another ex - who has obviously gone very public - was on the main entrance gate, with a protest sign, and visible to every person who entered the site. I suspect this latter was my old buddy Neville Ackland - certainly the description matched. Maybe someone can confirm. Security was beefed up considerably this year: speculation was that this was because of the “unpredictable” ex-premies, some of whom may be violence-prone. (Of course there isn’t a single known incidence of ex-premie violence, and several the other way - but you never know.) I’ve been asked by EV myself in recent times not to make inflammatory posts on this forum, because they may inspire acts of violence against Maharaji’s person. So maybe this speculation is true. Also, I remember from the dying days of my involvement, at a late 1990s event, being contacted by the head of the PR team to help with information on a particular incident: someone had put hundreds of Lord of the Universe posters of Maharaji all over Ipswich and Peak Crossing - the nearest towns to Amaroo. The information and graphics on the posters (I soon deduced) was straight off the EPO 1970s material. There was a major scramble to track these posters down and remove them - and another scramble to find the culprits. (I’ve since found them - but had no idea at the time.) So I imagine fear of a repeat raid by Ex-premie Guerilla Task Force was another reason behind this year's much heightened security. Anyway, once you showed your smartcard, and proved you’d paid your $A300 registration, you got onsite. Thereafter, all bags had to be checked on the way into the Q & A sessions, which were held in the late afternoons. This took hours, from some reports, and inconvenienced people greatly. Even gopis were heard to whinge - which is a rare thing for a gopi. One ex says: “There was a more serious security presence than at other times. On the way in to the Q and As there were pictures of knives saying “No knives” - though the signs vanished today. And despite the confiscation of cameras, one guy near me surreptitiously videoed the whole event.” Unhappily I didn’t get a report from backstage yet, though I imagine the Backstage Vestal Virgin Subcult swung into action as usual, after meditating and showering of course, to clean every square millimetre that the lotus toes might touch, with small cloths and toothbrushes. (Alright, I invented the toothbrushes, but those familiar with the frenzied cleaning activities of the B.V.V.S. will not find the reference too ludicrous.) For me, the most interesting report was on the event numbers: only 2900 people showed up overall. There were 4600 at the last international event. As I thought it would be, word was hastily put around that this was “only a Pacific regional event. Naturally numbers were down.” This is tosh. The event was open to premies the world over. It was well-advertised the world over. In evidence of this, I’m told three-quarters of the people asking ‘questions’ in today’s Q and A session were Europeans, not people from Australia and its neighbours. There was a significant proportion of Americans onsite. Several of us Aussie exes believed some weeks ago that the event was being officially labelled as a ‘regional’ one, but advertised world-wide, and open to premies from all countries, so that if the numbers fell short it could be said: “It was only really for Pacific locals.” Which is exactly what has happened. At the risk of being repetitious: the fact that it was not just for locals is best demonstrated by the very large Euro-American proportion of attendees. Registration ($A300) was way cheaper than in the past. Indeed you could get in for as little as $1 if you were broke. This should have induced more premies to attend, not less. The chairs in the amphitheatre were much more widely spaced than in the past, probably to make it look like more people were there than actually were. What does all this mean? For a year and a half we here in northern NSW have watched one premie after another drop out of the cult - some quietly, some rather noisily. Last week I was rung by a guy down south who’d received knowledge at (believe it or not) six years old, who’d just found EPO. In the weeks before that it was a procession of people I’d known at Amaroo over the years, all of whom (again) had found or been directed to EPO, and made their exits. On another occasion recently I mentioned my leaving K to a ‘fringe’ premie friend - the only time in my recollection that I’ve raised the subject with a premie, as opposed to having it raised with me. I told her about EPO, and the rest is history - well, her previous attitudes to Maharaji are history. I know the people here in my area who have exited in the last year or two have similar stories to tell, regarding friends or acquaintances. Anyway, the point I’m trying to make is that this has been to some extent the boiling frog syndrome. For some time we’ve all watched the anecdotal reports suggesting a cult in collapse: 1. Our own departures, of course 2. The departures of friends 3. The swelling numbers here on the forum 4. EV’s mounting paranoia regarding EPO and the forum (e.g. CAC, and possibly the recent attempts to discredit Michael Dettmers's memory of past events.) 5. M’s growing concerns about security (Just before I left he announced to a meeting of honchos that he wanted security cameras on every gate throughout Amaroo, and perhaps foolishly allowed the direction to be minuted.) 6. The routine manipulation of Aspirant Session numbers to make it look like more people are asking for K than actually are (If one person attended aspirant events 11 times in three months, believe it or not EV’s figures recorded 11 separate aspirants) 7. Last year’s ‘winds of change’ tour round the planet by an Aussie organiser, to spread M’s message re the dissolution of EV 8 EV’s continuing, drastic financial losses arising from 11/9, and its intractable costs. (For example Amaroo costs $1 million a year to maintain when it’s just in ‘caretaker’ mode - mostly in loan repayments.) 9 The visible fall in attendees at the few remaining video events. However all this has been kind of bitty, and anecdotal. We’ve not till now had a true picture of what the demographics were doing. I suggest that, from today, we do. A fall from 4600 to 2900 is a fall of 1700 people. It’s a 37 per cent decline. The spectacularly successful EPO can take the lion’s share of the praise for this, in my opinion. As can those pioneers here who set it up, and its present webmaster John Brauns, who has done so much to improve and augment the site. Many of us are extremely grateful to you. The guy who rang me from down south last week is too - he read EPO for a few hours, made a decision to delete Maharaji from his life, had one phone conversation with me - and that was it. We won’t be hearing from him here probably, but he is one of the (doubtless) many who quietly slip away, in the direction of a normal life. Another person - an ex-Amaroo chap - has spent up to 12 hours a day (sic.) on EPO in recent weeks. He’s had spectacular changes in his life, and I notice a much more ‘up’ tone in his voice than I’ve heard before. Anyway, what of the remainder stuck in the cult? Well, before the Q and A sessions it was apparently explained by Maharaji that you couldn’t actually ask questions. (“What people need is answers.”) Is George Orwell out there somewhere? Someone stood up and aid she’d used up all her credit cards flying round the world to see Maharaji. He said, ‘That sounds normal.’ ‘I want to be with you for a million years,’ gushed another. ‘All I want to do is be physically close to you,’ said another woman. Maharaji made fun of her by intimating that she wanted to have sex with him. (I didn’t get her hair colour.) Two questions later, a guy asked if he could fly on M’s plane with him as he’d promised him he could 20 years ago. M said yes - which my informant thought was rather callous to the poor woman who wanted to be with him physically, and who’d been sent up mercilessly for saying so. M dodged any tricky premie statements with waffle, piffle and a certain amount of twaddle. I believe a quantity of balderdash and tripe was thrown in for good measure. For example a guy who said he’d ‘been on a rollercoaster with K for 30 years’ got the old verbal runaround: meaninglesss vagaries and a few jokes. Finally, just today, in the Q and A session, someone called Maharaji the Lord. Maharaji did not contradict the statement, nor reiterate the clear assertion on EV’s website that he ‘has never claimed to be God’. ‘The level of devotion was frightening,’ said my informant. ‘One thing I really noticed was that the recent premies still had some life in their voices - clear and strong in some cases. Not so for the old ones.’ The ‘no-questions please’ Q and A sessions were in the late afternoon at Campground A. Premies sat on carpet. The satsangs, and the darshan lines which ensued - not sure how many days darshan happened - were in the mornings, and were very, very hot from all reports. (I guess it was a good thing that the number were down.) The satsangs began at 8.30am, tho gates were apparently locked at 7am. (!) M sat for the first time on a two-seater blue couch - my informant thinks because he’s gotten somewhat larger. ‘He filled most of it.’ How long did M speak in the afternoon? I asked one ex. “Fucking long!” quoth he. “The realisation that he didn’t really have a clue what to say when he got up there - and the sheer inanity of what he said - was the shock for me. He talked how he set up his website, and what an absolute genius he is - and how much garbage there is on the web in general. He said, in so many words: ‘Who needs information anyway?’ In a nutshell, it was a boring program. Security heavily eyeballed anyone who talked. The exes talked a lot, and had a few good laughs at inappropriate moments, so we got eyeballed a lot.” “There were several subtle references by Maharaji to the ex-premie site,” said another ex. Other reports suggest that AC (below) may be right in saying that quite a few of those who received K at this event were young people, which is depressing. My informants stress that all the above is to the best of their recollections. A few details may be awry, but most of it very close to what happened, they believe. More information as it comes to hand. John

Subject: Re: Amaroo event numbers well down From: salam To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 00:31:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't help but reading this. What about stink bombs, did they say anything. Oh I better not say anything otherwise EV or RR may send me the Australian Fedral Police this time. I heared some people were planing to hire the adjoining land and blaste crow sounds, any ideas?

Subject: Were hammers allowed? From: salsa To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 08:55:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Where the instructors' bags also checked for knifes, guns, hammers? The cult is in denial, or the PAMS came up with a need to search everybody just for the show, to make us exes look bad in the eyes of the premies? The most dangerous people are the fanatic devotees who I have heard many of them say 'I would do anything for M'. What actions would a premie justify for the LORD? The biggest example was Mahatma Fakiranand, close to maharaji in those 70s days, who attacked a person with a hammer....so brutally that the attacked person will carry a metal plate in his head, forever. hmmmmm....so, I must reason that the Amaroo search had the intention to make us exes look bad, solely. As you said, there is no violence evidence from exes toward m. No, we ex-premies have now a working brain and we use logic, therefore, we are not dangerous. Who in the hell would dirty their hands, jeophradize their freedom to attack the BLAB? Ridiculous, eh? The active, devoted premies who believe m is GOD are the dangerous ones. How many threats have we received here? Thanksfor the news. Always fun to hear what we managed to escape from.

Subject: Everyone -no exceptions!()) From: Cat To: salsa Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 01:23:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Everyone was checked no exeptions. Tell me , why do you assume the excercise was aimed at you?The whole world is very , very edgy at the moment. Large gatherings here in Oz are all checked. Maybe we just have a safety first consciousness?

Subject: A 'safety first consciousness?' Hahaha From: Cynthia To: Cat Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:10:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee Cat, Just can't get that word 'consciousness' out of your mind, eh? How about conscience? Been thinking about why all you folks would post here after the big tent revival with the Lawd. Interesting. I want to add that I call myself an ex-premie because I have released myself from the bonds of your lying thug of a guru. That means I see through his transparencies and reject him outright. Also, for the record, ex-premies aren't living in the past. It's Prem who is living in the past because he's got so much shit to cover up he's fixed on the past. Fakiranand, Jagdeo, and all Maharaji's lies, lies, lies. Takes a lot of effort to keep all the spin and revision straight. So it really is Maharaji, a pathetic has-been, spinning webs of deceit. If you hate ex-premies so much, why spend your time here after such a Glooorious event? I remember how it felt after a program. Have you crashed yet?

Subject: TOO funny nt ()) From: salsa To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:30:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hahahhahaha

Subject: The best for years... From: Cat To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 02:49:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You and your friends(and surprise ,surprise ,I think I know at least two...) must have been somewhere else. This event was exhilarating.It was a blast...FUN!!! (Remember fun you serious insect?):P Security? Are you kidding ?There was less tha ever . You could walk around freely and without hindrance. OK so there was a process in place to ensure a clean,secure enviroment. You been to anything bigger than a love-in lately John? Say a concert or the Football? Bag inspections are common place in todays enviroment. And did your observers not notice that the Security 'bag searching' were paid professionals? And yeah that one guy ...He reminded me of the silly bugger with the sign outside the railway station with the 'DOOM' sign. Bit sad really. The Knives , Cans and Camera's signs were there everyday. Fine by me, I like the idea of knowing that such items are restricted. I hate the idea of a can in the back of the head ...or a knife from some lunatic. Camera's?Last year they were permitted and honestly I felt like a penguin emerging from the surf at Phillip Island . Way too much Flash!:D There is no such fear specifically that X's will be violent from what I could see.It's simply a general thing. It's a pretty freaky world out there John or havent you noticed - nice up Byron way? It was a great event John .It was really nice to catch up with so many lovely genuine kind people. People who I can say I am really happy to have met and enjoyed in my lifetime. Prem was amusing compassionate and compelling.It was a little warm at times but there was no queueing as you try and describe it. People went early to get the best seats.Really early.They waited quietly and then when the place opened got the seat of their choice. There is no mystery to any of this John. It's not some Conspiracy fiction for most of us. It's a delicious chance to focus on the beauty of our lives and listen to the person who for over 30 years has simply told us to enjoy it - it is a beautiful gift, and it's addressed to you.Pull it out of your funky little wooden box John and have another look - it's alive!!

Subject: Re: The best for years... From: Gail To: Cat Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:52:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How quickly you have changed your master's handle from Maharaji to Prem. When that grows tired, he will become your Pal. Just another in the long list of Sant Ji, Guru Maharaj Ji, Maharaj Ji, Maharaji in an attempt to revise his past. Good grief. He must think that his devotees have no long-term memory left. Cat, I can't believe you're still involved. Maybe you will need a chef to bark at you after a trip half-way around the world to get you to snap out of it. Oh, Catweasel, he's not telling the truth. He never did. Remember the 'Swan' story. I'm telling you--wake up!

Subject: Re: The best for years... From: Cat To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 19:23:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gail ,his name is Prem. And if I can find your number I will give you a call sometime... He hasn't lied to me

Subject: Re: The best for years... From: Lou To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 18:32:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep...it was way cool! i am in Sydney airport now, on my way home...i had a blast sorry to say to all the sour Grapes Club

Subject: What awful company you keep, Cat! From: PatC To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 03:42:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''The Knives , Cans and Camera's signs were there everyday. Fine by me, I like the idea of knowing that such items are restricted. I hate the idea of a can in the back of the head ...or a knife from some lunatic.'' You added: ''There is no such fear specifically that X's will be violent from what I could see.'' To me that means, if the security measures were not for nuts from the outside like ex-premies, then some premies can't be trusted not to stick a knife in your back. I guess all us peace-loving flower-children must have left the cult and only the sharks are left. Actually I'm just kidding. I know most of the premies are relatively sane and decent and that you are just spinning Rev Rawat's growing paranoia.

Subject: Getting more intimate every time, eh? From: JHB To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 03:17:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat, One dream of all premies is to be in an intimate situation with Maharaji. Looks like it's becoming true for all the remaining pwicks. Cat, don't you think it's strange that you need someone to remind you to enjoy life? Since I stopped listening to Maharaji, I find that it comes naturally. Anyway, all the best in your dwindling cult. John.

Subject: genius :) OT From: silvia To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 15:32:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I will repply soon yoru email about spanish site. c u

Subject: Re: Getting more intimate every time, eh? From: Jerry To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 16:11:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat, don't you think it's strange that you need someone to remind you to enjoy life? I was just thinking that, John. It's weird that premies turn to Maharaji to learn how to enjoy life. How about just doing what you like doing? Of course, turning to Maharaji to find God made sense in a crazy sort of way. Supposedly, God sends his annointed ones to liberate those seeking him. Maharaji was supposed to be just such a person, the Living Perfect Master, the last hope for this age. But premies aren't into that anymore. I wonder why (not really). It's because as time passed they found out it was all bullshit. But instead of just letting go, it's as if they've settled for this lame consolation prize, that if Maharaji hasn't shown us God, well at least he reminds us to enjoy life. Get a life is what you should do if hearing Maharaji yap on about the gift of life is all you want. You've got to want more than that. That CAN'T be all it takes. It just can't be.

Subject: Re: Getting more intimate every time, eh? From: The Other Neville To: Jerry Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:08:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: '...a fanatic is one who redoubles his efforts when he has forgotten his aim.' —George Santayana

Subject: Yes, everyone is gonna get From: Tonette To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 11:20:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A front row seat at last! In fact, I would not be surprised to see M pay the remaining PWK to attend his events. After all, you have to have some filler to show on the videos you sell to the dish. He needs that footage! Naw, just kidding, M is way to greedy to spend one of his dimes to pull off his stunts. If it doesn't make money, he ain't interested! Fondly, Tonette

Subject: Hey fiesty Tonette :D (OT) From: Cynthia To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 16:08:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Tonette+), I'm emoticoning today. It's Pat Conlon's fault. He was experimenting and it was catching. Then I saw a post about some forum and thought is was 'Peachy.'B) Good posts Tonette, I loved them. Did you get my email? I drank more wine than usual this weekend. Had guests, etc...so I hope I made sense.:p Nothing new here except after a week of 85 F.deg. weather it's now snowing and 32. All day. It's georgeous and won't last--poor man's fertilizer Mom says. Everything is closed down 'til summer. The ski areas are dead thank GAWD:C) So how are you? Good to see you here. I've been feeling flakey and fun lately, so don't mind me if I'm a bit goofy. I liked what you said: 'Everybody gets a front row seat.' Funny. I was thinking today about my youngest sister. When she graduated from highschool in 1976 I deserted her in Connecticut and went to a goddamned program instead. It was when my folks were still together and my little sister had it bad living as an only child there. Sometimes when a program happens I think about the many family events I skipped for a fucking GooRoo.}) I think Maharaji, Prem Pal, or Prem, depending on how ''intimate'' one wants to be with his lardship,,,I think he ought to pay us Not To Go To Programs. HaHa. It's only fair. Say, a thousand bucks per program. No fewer than 12 per year. If he's gonna be a freak-show he needs to do a freaky thing like give us money.' ~)~)~) That means I'm serious. Email when you can... Love, Cynthia, and I thought I could start digging garden beds today...grrrrr:|

Subject: Hey lighthearted, OT From: Tonette To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:20:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just read your email. Yes it made perfect sense, you had a blast! Lucky. I could use some fun like that. I didn't think that my posts were that great but I'm glad you enjoyed them. Yes, what a way to look at the GooRoo, he is a freak show! Without a doubt. Do you think you could sit thru a program without several snickers not to mention outright laughter? How about when the audience laughs at some ridiculously unfunny joke? Where's Rod Sterling? Are they still producing the 'Twilight Zone?' Have we got a script for them! I'll mail you. Been digging myself in the garden, you'll be there soon enough. Funny weather Vermont. It's amazing to see the plants I'd forgotten from last summer making their merry way back from winter. My peonies are blooming. The hostas are up and the rose is filled with buds! Gotta do something about the pond, needs a new liner. Now where is that 6'2', 210 lb son? Anyway, I'll write soon. Love, Tonette

Subject: Yes, everyone is gonna get From: Tonette To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 11:16:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Getting more intimate every time, eh? From: Cat To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 04:53:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's how you 'enjoy life' John.I like to sit down and get right to it's very essence - my essence())........

Subject: Re: Getting more intimate every time, eh? From: Jerry To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 16:17:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm curious, Cat. How often do you strike this 'essense' compared to the amount of times you've suddenly found your mind drifting, gently reminding yourself to get back in focus? How many times do you skip meditating because, in all likelihood, you won't find your 'essense' if you do? Be honest.

Subject: Re: Getting more intimate every time, eh? From: Cat To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:22:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mostly every day (find it) and yes I practice every-day - I like it!

Subject: Re: Getting more intimate every time, eh? From: Bolly Shri To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 07:20:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Surely you would like to enjoy YOUR life. It sounds as if what you are happy with now is basking in the glow of some exploitative guru who tells you that to enjoy life you need to revolve around him. But that's so dull . Why not centre your enjoyment around your values and aspirations be an individual with your own dreams it might be fun. To follow slavishly the directives of another persons mind is to deny that you have anything worthwhile within, so what is the point of contemplating your inner self only to see what someone else tells you is there. Hope you gave lots of dosh in the darshan line love Bolly Shri

Subject: Your essence, or a high? From: JHB To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 05:12:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat, Do you have any evidence; other than the fact that it feels good, timeless, boundless, and generally splendid; that what you refer to as your 'essence' is in fact that? I'm sure you know that the human brain can be stimulated to feel all kinds of things, so to assign a fundamental interpretation to those feelings such as 'essence', is quite a serious step. To do so requires, in my view, a little more evidence than subjective feelings. This is a serious enquiry, as I'm open to the possibility that it is possible to directly experience one's 'true self' through a practice such as meditation, but I need a little more evidence than being told that's what it is. Hoping for a serious reply. John.

Subject: Re: Your essence, or a high? From: Cat To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 17:27:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a strange question. Here is the answer.I felt really good. Normally I feell pretty good, but hey this time I felt really good. Now when I feel really good the last thing I want to do is analyise why(notice my spelling?) Try it John and give that brain a rest....

Subject: Cat, you did the analyzing! From: JHB To: Cat Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 01:50:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat, You did a BIG bit of analyzing when you called what you experience your 'essence'. Can't you see that? I'm saying, by all means analyze, but at least look for some evidence other than 'I feel really good'. So Cat, do you still say it's your essence? John.

Subject: Analysis is paralysis. nt! From: Tim G To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:16:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: T

Subject: Semantics!:D From: Cat To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:13:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know exactly what I mean John...try any word you like but you know what I mean. You never forget.That's both your boon and your burden. You can't fool yourself!:p

Subject: Cat, I am not playing here From: JHB To: Cat Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 03:00:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat, You described what you experience when practicing the techniques as your 'essence'. Now either it is or it isn't. If it is, this is pretty important stuff. If it isn't then your basis for believing in Maharaji goes right out of the window. This isn't semantics, it's at the heart of what we are doing here. For myself, if evidence comes to light that it is our 'essence' then I still wouldn't trust Maharaji, but that's just me. However, if what you experience is just neuromasturbation, then Maharaji is just a teacher of wanking. Would you still want to follow him? John.

Subject: You have forgotten how()) From: Cat..I know()) To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:48:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thimk you are pretty much cerebal...terminally so. Prem said he loves to think. So do I. But I also enjoy feeling the quiet . And as they say about Australia's Northern Territory - 'You'll never ,never know if you never, never go' John; you need to reflect.Give it a little rest.........

Subject: But I have been, Cat From: JHB To: Cat..I know()) Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:14:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat, I have been there, and yes, I enjoyed it. Now I'm simply asking where it was I went. You say it's my essence. I see no evidence of that. I have asked you if you have any evidence for this quite fundamental statement, and so far you haven't answered me. So, Cat, do you have any evidence that what you experience is your essence? John.

Subject: Re: But I have been, Cat From: reflection To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 08:52:12 (EDT) Email Address: n/p Message: jhb. if you have been there, as you say, and you doubt it's your essence, it's positive ; you havent been there. once you know, YOU KNOW, nobody has to tell you, and your intellect shut up, there are no doubts. in my case, i have been in that place of pure love and peace. i have not doubts that is what i am made of, you are made of, and every living creature is made of. im sure. i know. you and the whole world cantell me its not true. it doesnt matter. i know what i know.

Subject: John, don't you know? From: Jim To: reflection Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 14:21:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: People who know know. People who know don't speak and people who speak don't know and people who know don't use proper punctuation and people who use proper punctuation don't know. Simple.

Subject: I have been there From: JHB To: reflection Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:10:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have been there, and I had no doubts either. But then, I had been told beforehand that such a place existed, and that it was my true self. Afterwards, my intellect ascribed the experience to Maharaji. Now that I have read that such experiences can be triggered in so many ways, I certainly no longer give Maharaji any credit, but I also doubt whether the experience is what I felt it was. Knowing is something that the brain does. I now believe that the experience is something like a powerful sensation of 'knowing' without the thought of the object of that 'knowing'. I may be wrong, hence my repeated request for some evidence other than 'I simply know'. John.

Subject: Re: I have been there From: Cat To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 16:19:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? It's something you feel, It's irrelevant where it comes from,but only you can feel it. You and Jim are totally cerebal. Adopt a more wholistic approach to your being and you may find your days more satisfying.....

Subject: Re: I have been there From: JHB To: Cat Date Posted: Tues, Apr 23, 2002 at 18:33:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? It's something you feel, It's irrelevant where it comes from,but only you can feel it. You and Jim are totally cerebal. Adopt a more wholistic approach to your being and you may find your days more satisfying..... --- WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? It's something you NEED to think about, It's very relevant where it comes from, but only you can think for yourself. You and Reflection have intellect that you are suppressing. Adopt a more wholistic approach to your being and you may find your days more satisfying..... John.

Subject: stions From: la-ex To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 23:00:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks John for that report...its always nice to see the results of the good works that have gone into EPO paying off, with more cult defections each month.... I had a few questions: 1-Can you tell us more about EV's request to you to tone down the 'inflammatory' posts? It seems absurd that they would request that, and I was just wondering if you would share with us how that happened, and what they said to you? 2-Do you know what the sign said that was displayed at the entrance by the ex? Did they try to prevent him from doing it? 3-Can you encourage any other exes who attended to post some of their observations? Any chance anything was videotaped? 4-Any info on the refrences M made about EPO? 5-Other anecdotal info, especially on how the lard is taking this new level of resistance to his bullshit? Observations? Strategies they may be taking? Their viewpoint about EPO and the ex-premie movement? 6-General gossip about lard, pams, family, tours, toy sales etc.... Just curious, Thanks John, La-ex