Subject: I'm not nuts, eh? From: Gail To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 15:20:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have realized that I seem to have fragmented. Maybe this is normal. When I'm talking to myself, sometimes I refer to my self in the third person such as 'She ought to do this.' When I catch nyself, I say aloud, Whose she? Ususally I talk to myself in the second person as in 'Gail you ought to ....' So I guess I'm totally out of it, or are you like this too? I'm serious.

Subject: I'm nuts too From: JHB To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 15:25:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gail, I do this sometimes too. I doubt it matters much:) John.

Subject: I'm so grateful I'm gonna explode!!!!!!! From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 09:05:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Each drop Finally I've learned to count my blessings. You have made me realize and understand some very precious things in my life. Reminders comes in many ways. I am much more grateful now than I ever was before. Thank you so much, my dear master.. .. Kalpana Ellan Penang, Malaysia ********* The reason I was born Eleni Kyriakopoulou From Athens, Greece Last night listening to Maharaji I felt this overwhelming feeling that the reason I was born, the reason I was alive, was so that I could be with him, listen to him and drink the nectar of his presence. My heart exploded in this feeling, in gratitude, in wonderful awareness.

Subject: Without outside From: Dickie Pwickie To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 10:46:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Without outside Dickie Pwickie From the dumpster behind Trancas Market Malibooboo, CA When now I go within inside, I find That Place where you reside. If I can't travel that inside road, I think that I will just explode. Then everything within inside me, Will no longer reside within in me. And everything that I know is real, Without outside will now be I feel. So keep reminding me to breathe I pray, Or all within will be without one day. Without Prem's Self-Knowledge, now hear me shout, I'd be without outside with all my doubts.

Subject: Within Without Within From: Cynthia To: Dickie Pwickie Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 15:33:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard, You like that without onside thing do ya? And don't make fun of me aiamic pent-a-meters::) I'm sensitive. It's from the 'Last Temptation of Cheese and Crackers by Cynthia' Without outside is where I'll be Among the birds and maple trees. It's good to know within inside Was nothing more than Rawat's pride. The master says he lives within He shouts his lies and in that sin My ears snap shut amid his din. The world outside is my abode For there I never will explode There is no reason to implode For Rawat is a simple toad. Then either or and on and on Without outside I see real dawn. Without outside I see him gone.

Subject: Premie memorabilia From: Anandaji To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 21:36:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was cleaning my attic this week and came across a box of premie memorabilia. I quickly tossed it into the throw-away pile, but then retrieved it after a few minutes. I just couldn't so flippantly toss out the remnants of a 28 year odyssey. There are several 'And it is Divine's' and 'Divine Times.' There is a premie songbook and a few posters. The most evocative item for me is a large Millenium poster. 'To Houston or Bust, in God we Trust.' Millenium happened 3 weeks after I received K. What have you done with your memorabilia? Does anyone want this stuff? I read through one of the magazines. Weird. Very, very weird now that I am removed from what I once held so sacred. I think I am suffereing from post hypnotic stress syndrome. Anandaji

Subject: Re: Premie memorabilia From: Jean-Michel To: Anandaji Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 00:27:28 (PDT) Email Address: jmkahn@club-internet.fr Message: Some documents may be worth being included in EPO ! If you think some are, please let's discuss it.

Subject: JM-is this a good idea for epo? From: la-ex To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 05:51:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How about an appeal on the homepage for any old time premies to send in old dlm stuff?

Subject: What EPO needs and doesn't need From: JHB To: la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 09:33:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: La-ex, Between me and J-M we already have a lot of material to back up the quotes on EPO. Most of my stuff is still in England, but I've made arrangements to get my tapes from the late 70's so that I can add to the quotes on EPO. In particular, I think we need a hard hitting selection of 'surrender' quotes. I also have a fair number of magazines from that period. What would be good would be the more unusual, personal, stuff, like letters from Maharaji/DLM, that weren't in general circulation, particularly confidential stuff about DLM/EV organisational and financial matters. Also, recordings of 'restricted' events like ashram or instructor meetings. I don't think we need an ad on EPO. People who have this stuff tend to offer it anyway. To Anandaji, I would say keep the stuff. This was a very important time of your life, and if nothing else it's a reminder of how we are fallable. Look at it occasionally when you feel your ego growing:) John.

Subject: Remember when he was on Merv Griffin? From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 09:44:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have that tape though I don't know what condition it's in. It's a cassette audio tape. Wasn't there also a film or video on that special appearance?

Subject: Re: Remember when he was on Merv Griffin? From: la-ex To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 09:45:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yes, with the sitar music in the backround? also, the congressional speech in the late 70's....wonder who has a copy of that one?

Subject: Ever hear about this Mischler tape? From: la-ex To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 09:41:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A friend of mine said that he heard some tapes from Bob Mischler that caused him to leave around 1980 or so. In it, he said that the reason that m's eyes were so glassy on stage, especially when he had gone bacstage for awhile after his satsang ended, as that the backstage rerigerator was well stocked with champagne. These and other revelations on the tapes cause him to leave. Ever run across these tapes?

Subject: No, can you get them? From: JHB To: la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 10:04:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's clear from the tape with the deprogrammed premies that Mishler had kept quiet for a while after leaving, but then realised it was his duty to tell the truth. So it is very likely that apart from the radio and telephone interviews that he must have given other interviews. So if you, or anyone else, can track these down, I would be very interested in getting them on EPO. John.

Subject: Re: JM-is this a good idea for epo? From: Jean-Michel To: la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 06:04:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who's going to take care of the stocks ? Do you have a place to store all the stuff ? Not talking about the security/safety ....

Subject: Re: Premie memorabilia From: Brian Smith To: Anandaji Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 22:58:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Anandaji, Do not throw any of that stuff away. It might be good to preserve evidence of that old propaganda for the sake of bebunking the present and possible future revisionist positions. Check your personal email, I just sent you a message

Subject: Re: Premie memorabilia From: Marshall To: Anandaji Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 22:12:32 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Hi Anandaji, I have been wanting to get a hold of an old poster that said 'Discover the Sunny Kingdom Through Meditation', on it, it also depicts a shangri-la type landscape as the centerpiece. Got one of those? Heck, I want the posters, cool? Marshall

Subject: Re: Premie memorabilia From: Cynthia To: Marshall Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 08:06:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi All, I have quite a few things that I keep in a box in my office. Every blue moon I look inside; those items can be a real gauge for how far I've gone away from it all. I have many photos, too...

Subject: Next event. From: Sulla To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 20:47:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Subj: An event in Pasadena California, Saturday June 15th. Date: 5/29/2002 7:37:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: mailinglist@elanvital.org (Elan Vital) Maharaji has accepted an invitation to speak at an event in Pasadena California, Saturday June 15th. This event is open only to people from North America who have received the techniques of Self-Knowledge. The location of the event is: Pasadena Conference Center Exhibition Building 300 East Green Street Pasadena, California 91101 This event is scheduled to begin at 5pm. The registration fee will range from $65.00 to $80.00 On line registration will be available starting Friday, May 31st at www.elanvital.org/june2002event Please have your Smart card number available when you register. Seats will be assigned from the front of the hall on a first-come, first-served basis. If you are unable to pay for registration online, you will need to register at the hall. Please be aware that security measures will be in effect for entry into the venue. Allow ample time to arrive at the hall to check in. For updates to this announcement, please check the event website www.elanvital.org/june2002event. This information is also available by calling 310-859-2284.

Subject: Contacted the Conference Center From: John in Pasadena To: Sulla Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 15:05:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and gave them some background info. on the Guru Maharaj ji. The guy was somewhat interested but seemed more concerned to be making a few bucks for renting the place. I sent him a link to EPO and told him that he and his supervisors may want to look into it a bit, anb that the evangelical, snake oil perveyor that is coming to preach is actually the Guru Maharaj ji from the 70's and not the New Age Meditation Instructor of Self-Knowledge Prem Rawat. Time to contact other interested parties, I don't want this A-hole to have a free ride in my town.

Subject: Oky, everyone -- jig's up. Time to quit From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 18:58:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Deborah, the genius 'player' with 'the right intellectual tools' posted this on LG. What do you think? (Well, actually, if she's right I know the answer -- you think whatever I MAKE you think :)). But, besides that, isn't this something? I just can't get enough of this crazy shit for some reason. Deborah Hi Selene, If their image is so important, why they keep going on gossiping, and not about M but other people who used to post on their forum?? Strange behavior. Well that's an interesting dilemma, isn't it? Don't you think they are losing credibility by the hour? The forum is not based on integrity, but rather on hype and a do whatever it takes to keep the hype alive momentum. One criterium for maintaing their indoctrination is to control the flow of information. It's easy to control what information is in, because of the sleaze ball tactics and panic button pushers known as FA's and their insatiable appetite for control. But how do they keep the borders controlled? If people read over here, than they might think criticallyabout their own experiences. For example, I am correcting the great 'Maha demonized the mind myth'. I never bought that shit at F-VII but just didn't argue it into the ground. I did comment once that that wasn't my dilemma but posts like that are not sensational and remain dormant. So, if I counter the revisionist statements in my posts over here, someone may read it and question that perception at F-VII and that is not good. Their logic in this case, is to demonize me for saying anything good and brand it as 'she is just sore' at us. But sore about what? Good question, now they need a what! But the what that has any semblance of truth is 'bad' for publicity because it exposes them for being 'bad'. You see!? They backed themselves into a corner, Selene. The forum relies on conditioning the exes to the Heller philosophy including revised memories and people like us threaten that agenda. Most damaging is the harsh fact that we also threaten the notion that they are the salvation from the 'premie' cult. ooooh, So, if the premies are perceived as nice, and fun, and a joy to be around, than the exes stand out in contrast with their constant angst and anger and escalating hatred. The exes need to fabricate the war, so that their indoctrinated recruits can have somewhere to channel their negative energy. Well supporting the premie forum and arguing with the exes that they take their shit back to the ex-forum takes away their imaginary battlefield where the premies can be used as target practice. This is why Heller and his sidekick bodgies put out the spin against premies. Blanket over-generalized statements are made and demonized. Demonizing is an important aspect of indoctrination. As long as nobody is pointing the finger back at them, they can condition the minds of people who have been willingly around for three decades. . .If a premie points the finger back, they call it 'apologist spin'. But now, an ex-patriot of their forum is pointing fingers (especially the middle one) and that is breaking the structure of dramatic polarity. Hey Selene, notice that Maharaji has never risen to ex-premeie forum bait? We are following his lead Do you think Heller doesn't detest that every moment of his pathetic life? So to Heller, premies are the closest he'll ever get to Maharaji. His goal is to make premies accountable for Maharaji to justify his relentless anger. And the exes follow his lead like sheep. It doesn't dawn on them that the premies don't have to argue for or against anything Maharaji has ever said or done. Their new ex-premie indoctrination overrules that logic. We have undone a very big momentum in other words. If we are part of the Catweasel coven, than we get ensconsed in the 'other' and that can be re-organized intellectually thanks to a little inculcation criterium known as 'cognitive dissonance'. If they stop talking about it, than the new dilemma they have, thanks to people like us, will dissipate. People will also have time to think about the bullshit. So their only choice is to keep it alive. Keeping it alive is inadvertantly taking massive heaps of attention away from Maharaji. Hee hee And so the forum has new life for those doing life because the drama is fresh compared to the 'yesterday's newspaper headlines', but unfortunately the nothing new is turning off those who go for their Maha-is-bad fix. It's a vicious circle. Metaphor is apropos, wouldn't you say?

Subject: Re: Oky, everyone -- jig's up. Time to quit From: Scott T. To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 12:42:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim: Well supporting the premie forum and arguing with the exes that they take their shit back to the ex-forum takes away their imaginary battlefield where the premies can be used as target practice. This is why Heller and his sidekick bodgies put out the spin against premies. Blanket over-generalized statements are made and demonized. OK, I know Deb is supposed to be brilliant and erudite, but isn't she saying that we demonize our own statements? Or am I reading that amiss?? We have undone a very big momentum in other words. Undone a momentum? When a vehicle nears its destination the velocity is decreased because otherwise the momentum would carry it on past. For a passenger to perceive this as a process that *they* initiated is humorous, but would have to be tied to some redeeming quality in order to escape being merely pathetic. And so the forum has new life for those doing life because the drama is fresh compared to the 'yesterday's newspaper headlines', but unfortunately the nothing new is turning off those who go for their Maha-is-bad fix. Why does this sound so much like an 'OxiClean' commercial? Tolstoy it's not. --Scott

Subject: Talk about revisionism!? [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 21:13:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Oky, everyone -- jig's up. Time to quit From: Inside Edition To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 19:41:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'The forum is not based on integrity, but rather on hype and a do whatever it takes to keep the hype alive momentum.' I do believe the same could easily be said about Rat-wat!

Subject: re-not based on integrity From: AV To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 13:16:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The forum never struck me as based on hype, rather the stories of a group of people with very diversr experiences of M and the world of K which they are trying to resolve; some are angry i.e. those personally affected by abuse, or had given up careers and property only to be dumped, some have fond memories of M and cannot reconcile their past beliefs with current behaviour, some are undergoing a major crisis of faith in anything 'divine', some continue to meditate as a road to an inner landscape believed to be a connection to the infinite; there are so many opinions and views exchanged; sometimes it gets ferocious, sometimes very humorous. bottom line is, whatever the view or perspective, people here are pretty sincere, and there is often a lot of love and care taken in providing a valuable free-zone for feelings of a complex and difficult nature.

Subject: David Andersen (on LG) disagrees From: PatC To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 13:08:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, you guys......Wow. I stay away for a few short months and --- -things change radically: Deb--who used to sound & feel like a bitter loon --- is, like, a cool person! I am blown away. Good job. I don't know all the machinations and all the history(the dark exchanges you refer to with Heller, Marianne, et.al.) but it's sweet to feel your kindness, Deb. Hey, Harry: love to hear that shit; testify, brother, testify. What's this about me & Nigel? My short-term memory loss/inevitable senior-monent-itis has kicked in...somebody refresh my cannabis-encrusted neurotransmitters. And, BTW, life IS great. Knowledge is an amazing, powerful tool; Maharaji/Prem Rawat is a beautiful, loving teacher. I've said this before here, but it comes up again and again: Mr. Rawat is a man unafraid to fail spectacularly, process it quickly, and move on. He is my hero in this respect. He's totally fearless about taking risks in the service of his purpose: to place Knowledge in front of as many people as possible globally, with a total absence of 'trips' and cultural baggage --- to offer the highest common denominator to every single human who has an interst, feels a thirst. What a magnificent vision; AND--he's failed his way to immense success. Just like Edison. or Churchill. Or Jesus. Or hundreds of people that were undeterred by failure in advancing their skill level and producing their masterpiece due to the strength of their experience and motivation. Failure, in fact, is only failure, and negative or useless, unless you fail to humbly accept the lesson from it, and move on with joy. Just like any child that's ever been born into this world. How does a baby learn to walk? By failing until he succeeds; by not obsessing on pain or blame; by not being self-important in the arrogant, egotistical way. By knowing life is a beautiful, loving teacher; by acknowledging the magic and mystery that exists in us and around us at all times. Again: life is fookin' great, kids.......xoxoDA

Subject: The Ghost of Satsang past From: PatD To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 14:14:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: somebody refresh my cannabis-encrusted neurotransmitters. I remember GMJ saying once, in reply to a question about where dope fitted into the new world of god realisation, something like..'you see these guys,they're diving in a cove somewhere, they're not part of the plan'. Can't remember the exact words. This Anderson person is a fuckwit.A slave in the service of a greedy little bastard.What's all this failure shit, the perfect master was always right, back when he & I, & you & everyone else who looks in here,were mesmerised. Seems this Anderson's got his knackers caught in the lift door...going up yeah...going down yeah...it's all the same thing man, cause it's the same bellboy pushing the buttons. What a joke.(or maybe it's a lila)

Subject: An interesting discussion from LG From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 16:59:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Will has been talking to the premie, ''Harry,'' on LG. (''Harry'' has been the most articulate and wordy cult apologist on LG since David Andersen stopped posting there.) Will Subject: To Harry, continuing from below Message: Harry, Thanks for responding to my 'very specific question.' I find that you spoke first of your own experience with Prem Rawat and how you are grateful for what he has have given you, which was not specifically what I was asking about. And then, secondly, you mentioned other possible teachers, which again was not what I was specifically wanting to ask about. You make a couple other points that were beside my point, such as whether or not the techniques are original to Prem Rawat, whether there is an actual cost to learn the techniques, and what certain other people who you know have experienced. But then, you do get around to addressing directly what I wanted you to write about, when you say 'there's an obvious semantic dichotomy of how can it be a gift if you already have it?' But you merely state the dichotomy and do not answer my question about what you believe about it. You do seem to be saying that you feel the dichotomy is merely semantic and that there is no real issue here other than the difficulty and limitations of human language. So I beg to differ. I do not think the problem is semantic at all. I think it is a pivotal point and addresses a basic reality and in fact is one of the most important questions a human being should ask himself if he is ever inclined toward following a guru figure. The original question, again, was: do you believe Prem Rawat when he says that the experience of Self-Knowledge has to be a gift from one person to another, from the Master to the student? I will tell you what I think about it, and then perhaps pose the question to you again. There are two 'levels' that one can think about this question. One is the very straight-forward logical level in which the guru teaches the techniques to the student and the student says thank you for teaching me these techniques. Then the student goes and uses the techniques and has a very good experience and the student says, 'boy, if you hadn't shown me these techniques and encouraged me to practice, I would probably have never known this very good experience, so thank you for that!' The gratitude would be of an appropriate level, and I would have no problem at all for a graditude of that sort. But the gratitude would be for the showing of the techniques and the encouragement, not for the experience itself. Here is the point and here is where Rawat and others like him sneak in a grand lie. The gratitude for the experience itself must go to the right place. And where is that? The guru? Should the human guru figure be credited with 'giving the experience!?' This is the point I am trying to make and trying to force you to address, Harry. I shall tell you how I would answer my own question. For my being, I am grateful to the source, the mysterious source, of my being. For the love in my life I am grateful toward the love that exists in the universe. For my own development in my life, both 'externally' and 'internally,' I honor myself and the efforts I have made. I am grateful to all those who have helped me along the way. Now there is another level on which people can think about this question, a more 'spritual' and hypothetical level. When I received Knowledge, it was very clearly to be understood that I was receiving a grace through the auspices of Prem Rawat. The grace came to me through Prem Rawat and his representative. Unfortunately for my case, I received Knowledge from Jagdeo, and I can only think that there really wasn't any grace happening for me through that person, because I can't imagine that divine grace would come to me through such a despicable pervert as Jagdeo. But let us say that I 'received Knowledge' from another one of Rawat's representatives, let's say Michael Parragon. I always detested Michael Parragon's personality. So how could divine grace come to me through some ignorant human being I can't stand? What if Prem Rawat himself taught me the techniques in some video? And what if I really didn't like people who drove drunk and was uncomfortable getting my Self-Knowledge from such a person? The point I am trying to get at is that I want to acknowledge the source of grace in my life, but I want it to be the right source. Even it remains mysterious to me. In my experience and opinion, the guru figure alligns himself with the source of grace in a way that he should never ever do. And the student misdirects his gratitude toward the guru figure because he is too bound by the illusions of human perspective and fails to accept the mystery of life. He directs his gratitude toward a person as if that person were the source. He will use the phrase 'I received Knowledge' from my teacher. But that is the wrong phrase. It should be: 'I learned some techniques of meditation from my teacher.' The actual experience I have of my own Self-Knowledge comes from within me. I have no problem with those teachers of meditation who offer their teaching services and then leave it at that. There is a bit of gratitude, properly directed and in line with the truth of life. The problem with all those gurus who declare themselves the giver of the gift of Self-Knowledge is that they are taking more credit than they deserve. Self-Knowledge is between an individual person and his own Self. A person moves toward his own heart and his own higher self by living his life and learning the lessons that life teaches him. All we are required to learn is how to live honorably, in tune with truth and love. We are not required to unite our limited consciousness with the Infinite, because that would be the Infinite's job to accomplish, obviously. We need only to open our hearts to that power. We can live honorably on the 'outside' and go quietly to our core on the 'inside,' independent of any specific techniques or teachers or rules. That is how it is, and how it is good to be. All people who are alive have the capacity to know the quiet within. And we can share with each other the truth and the love that we know. But it can never, must never, be limited to one person's personality cult. And it should never be considered a gift from one person to another person. That is a perversion. So I ask again, does your own experience of Self-Knowledge correspond to my version, or to the version of Shri Hans and Prem Rawat (as quoted originally below). Do you believe that in order to have the experience of Self-Knowledge and to grow in that experience, must one approach another human being who claims to be the Master of that Knowledge? Do you have to get something from somebody else, as they claim? I think this question is one of the few really defining differences between premies and ex-premies. I think we actually agree with each other on most other counts. That is why I am insisting on this very specific question. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Harry Recipient: Subject: Re: To Will, continuing from below Message: Hi Will, Since you asked, I’ll try again, though I pretty much said what I wanted to say the first time. I’ll try to say it quickly as I have a lot to take care of right now. We have fundamentally different approaches. You feel that a person can and should get wherever they’re ''going'' in their desire to unite with whateveryoucallit on their own, through the natural processes, lessons and realizations that life presents them with. Is that an accurate paraphrasing? You said - ''A person moves toward his own heart and his own higher self by living his life and learning the lessons that life teaches him. All we are required to learn is how to live honorably, in tune with truth and love. We are not required to unite our limited consciousness with the Infinite, because that would be the Infinite's job to accomplish, obviously. We need only to open our hearts to that power. We can live honorably on the 'outside' and go quietly to our core on the 'inside,' independent of any specific techniques or teachers or rules. That is how it is, and how it is good to be.'' Sounds nice (well, maybe the last sentence ain’t so great). My approach is different in the one respect that highlights this discussion. In my life, my heart was opened to that power with the assistance, guidance, care, humor, wisdom and perspective of a guy named Maharaji. Not the formless and unmanifest, not a book or a philosophy. Not ''the Universe'' or unnamed, mysterious forces. Not only do I not reject, shun or deny his help, I welcome it. I feel my association with him, however out of fashion or uncool at any given point, greatly accelerates every bit of what you state and that the more lighthearted, loving, accepting, appreciative and deeply felt state that I crave and love, and he encourages and reminds me about, is the state you’re aspiring to, by your description. You don’t want nor accept anyone’s help? Fine, that’s your call. You don’t like Michael Paragon or believe every bit of unbalanced debris you hear about Maharaji? That’s up to you. Your only reference to him in your post was, ''What if Prem Rawat himself taught me the techniques in some video? And what if I really didn't like people who drove drunk and was uncomfortable getting my Self-Knowledge from such a person?'' I’d say you have a profoundly limited, somewhat insulting, miniscule comprehension of the person who supposedly is a central figure in your long post and questions. Maybe that sounds rude to you but you might take a moment to see how totally you have absorbed the party line of the ex-premies, to the point where you’re probably unaware that you’re insulting my teacher and friend, who I love, know and feel very close to, as you ask me a question. Would you so easily insult someone’s family members or friends? I doubt it. Are you ready to throw out of your record collection all music by artists who were reported to have driven drunk one time 20 years ago? You’d be left with a single Pat Boone album - actually, come to think of it.... As I said the first time, the way you’ve phrased your question is loaded from the start. That’s why I answered each and every component of your question, though you apparently feel that those answers were side trips. So be it. If I were a basketball player who usually shot 6 or 7 out of 10 of my foul shots (here’s where I’m hoping you’re American or Serbo-Croatian) and a basketball teacher (might not even be a player, could be 5’ 3'') pointed out a few key items about my stroke, after which I consistently shot 9 or 10 out of 10, I’d have a similar question facing me. If being around that teacher, for whatever reason, lifts my game those few notches, should I keep him around or stay with my ''natural'' 65-70%? Now, as you suggest, I could thank him, ask him to take off and resume my natural progression. What if my percentage tended to slip back to its former state and when he came around again, it rose back up to 90-95%? Should I accept this, be suspicious, thank him or run away? Is it an insult to me and to the entire course of human evolution that this dude can be the catalyst to kicking my level of play quite a ways up? Is it a coincidence that I almost always feel at the very top of my ''game'' when I’m around Maharaji? What do I mean by that? The love tank fills to overflowing, the laugh tank fills up, stresses disappear, my perspective gets way larger and longer term, my delight in and recognition of the beauty of all existence grows logarithmically. Priorities get organically re-ordered. The preciousness of the time I have becomes far more apparent than in the ''normal'' daily approach. I feel at my very best. In fact, I’ve been blasted right out the top of my tepee more times than I can count. This has occurred over three decades. I take these as a little bit more than signs that my association with this character is of great importance and impact in my life. Nothing and no one else has had this effect on me consistently. You have that effect on yourself? Mazel tov. I don’t. I can use the help. You think it’s a giant placebo effect? I’ll take it. ''For the love in my life I am grateful toward the love that exists in the universe.'' I find that to be a meaningless sentence. Where, in space? I’m grateful for the love I have with people I actually know. I’m a person and I tend to dig the personal. That’s why I don’t feel the personal or devotional love for Maharaji is misplaced, another of your points. When love grows, whoever inspires, triggers or catalyzes it, it floods into all areas of one’s life and everyone benefits: your wife, kids, pets, and friends. How bad or detrimental exactly is someone whose presence or proximity draws your attention to your most beautiful attributes as well as theirs? Compassion and understanding are natural by-products of immersion in that power and beauty. ''I am grateful to all those who have helped me along the way.'' Except Maharaji. Funny, that. ''All people who are alive have the capacity to know the quiet within.'' Yes, and very few of them know how to access it. That’s where a little help might come in handy. Back to what you commented as me finally getting to the crux of your biscuit. ''But then, you do get around to addressing directly what I wanted you to write about, when you say 'there's an obvious semantic dichotomy of how can it be a gift if you already have it?' But you merely state the dichotomy and do not answer my question about what you believe about it. You do seem to be saying that you feel the dichotomy is merely semantic and that there is no real issue here other than the difficulty and limitations of human language.'' Every one of the lovely attributes I mentioned above, all of the tanks (tanks for the memories) we have. We are born with them. Do they tend to grow or fade as we age? Are we getting closer to or farther away from feeling them? Look around, I think the answer’s pretty clear. ''So I ask again, does your own experience of Self-Knowledge correspond to my version, or to the version of Shri Hans and Prem Rawat?'' My experience corresponds far more to Maharaji’s and Shri Hans’ than to yours, though all three of us might express it differently due to many factors, not least being where and when in history we existed. ''The original question, again, was: do you believe Prem Rawat when he says that the experience of Self-Knowledge has to be a gift from one person to another, from the Master to the student?'' Yes, I believe it is indeed a gift that awakens, heightens, reveals and allows us to directly immerse ourselves in the loving, kind, infinite and highly pleasurable beauty that is our nature and was within us all along. That’s a ''dichotomy'' I can happily live with. And no, I don’t think your attempts at getting there yourself by means of natural progression will get you as far, as quickly. But hey, knock yourself out! If you want to get into the microscopic, lingual perusal of every atom, quark and black hole of your question, read my first post again. The one word answer - catalyst. I’ll take the help. Best to you, Will Harry P.S. Do we share the same mother? If so, I believe there are some rather large checks (cheques) awaiting us! --- --- --- --- WardenDoc (aka, Cerise, David Roupell et al) Subject: 'trying to force Harry to address?' Message: There's you mistake pal. If you knew Harry, you'd know that you don't talk to him like that. In fact, you don't force any New Yorker to do anything. But I have a question for you. How the hell did you go from being a simple kiddie sucking happily on a lollypop - to having a tired brain lost in a maze of convoluted and complicated concepts as depicted in your post? --- --- --- --- - Harry Recipient: Subject: Fuhgeddaboudit! Message: Hey! Who you people talkin' to over here? Fuhgeddaboudit. Semantic dichotomy this! --- --- --- --- --- DominitrixDoc Subject: Re: 'trying to force Harry to undress?' Message: If you knew Harry, you'd know that I do talk to him like that. In fact, I can force any New Yorker to do anything. cheers, DominitrixDoc (Deb, who can't resist satire) --- --- --- --- PrudeDoc (Cerise again) Subject: No way Deb, David A has btdt already Message: at the dungpile already. He ripped the thin veneer off Nigel's blimp. It wasn't a pretty site as we already knew. The hyenas went wild as you'd expect. If you exposed Jack the Ripper to them they'd all gather round and praise him as a 'debonaire playboy'. They'd call white black if pack unity was threatened. --- --- --- --- So is ''Harry'' our old friend, David Andersen, brother of Andrea Erikson or is that Erika Andersen? Sure sounds like him. Funny how the premies love their aliases. I guess it's all just maya anyway and it doesn't matter how deceitful one is. ''It's just a game. So what if most people aren't in on the joke? Ha ha hee hee, bolli shree! After all self-knowledge isn't for everyone. But just because we think a Hindu chubster is god and practice some secret techniques doesn't mean we're in a cult. No, the rest of the world is in a cult. Ha ha hee hee, bolli shree!''

Subject: The fascinating dichotomy From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:27:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All day long I deal with people because that's what I do. I'm a people dealer. And some of these people are smarter than others. Why? Because. But you can almost always tell which ones are the smarter ones by how they talk. Why? Because. Harry, sounds smart in that he can turn a cute phrase, dress it up, dress it down. He can catch a joke and send it back. Decent vocabulary, all that. But when you actually read his comments and really think about them, hell, what do you know? The guy might be otherwise smart but he sure is saying some stupid stuff here! But what can you do? Will's doing it, I guess. All power to him. Of course, committed cult members can't see what's what but fence-sitters are a valid enough audience to make the effort worthwhile. And exes can get a savoury laugh out of it all. Nice try, Will.

Subject: The fascinating bottle in front of me From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 21:04:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Most of the premies I know booze or smoke more pot than meditate or combine the two. Nothing wrong with that but - since when is being stoned the same as ''satchitanand'' (pure consciousness bliss?) I wonder why they need to smoke pot before meditating? Could it be that meditation is boring for them without getting stoned? On LG, David Roupell said to Deborah (who has started practicing again): I think my current imbalance is due to cannabis elimination. Does anyone have any experience or data on this? I have stopped smoking recently and am sure that there must be some kind of eliminative reaction happening. I certainly have a headache and feel tired in bursts followed by bursts of energy. If anyone knows the time line on this stuff, I'd dig to know when I'll feel 'normal' again. The hardest things is practice, I used to love a smoke an hour beforehand which tended to focus the mind on deeper more profound things in preparation for the Pilates movements to loosen up and relax before the journey within. Nowadays I sit there to practice and have to endure an hour of bland superficial mindshit before getting close to centering. You know, tiresome thoughts like what to have for breakfast tomorrow or has so and so got off on their trip to Korea ok? Has the book I sent arrived in Tasmania? Did I change the strings on the PRS this week or last week? I dunno, the mind seems to be able to go on and on and on. At least after a good smoke I used to hear this internal loudspeaker system which would address the mind quite clearly with the words SHUT THE FUCK UP! It worked, I would immediately find myselt getting to much deeper levels very fast But my lungs have asked for a cessation and I am willing to oblige them this time. Me again: Cerise said: ''Nowadays I sit there to practice and have to endure an hour of bland superficial mindshit before getting close to centering.'' And that's after close to 30 years of ''practice.'' When will premies ever ''realize K?'' My friend, CT, who is a dear fellow and an unabashed stoned Hippie Hindu, knows a lot more about ''self-knowledge'' for very good reason. +) He's a nice guy but I can't argue with him as it's like arguing politics with Salam - futile. CT does one thousand pranyamas every morning before practicing and is really a kind, sweet and gentle man, one of the few premies I know who is truly happy with K - a lot like premies were 20 years ago. I guess you really have to be stoned to understand M or K (or any New Age nonsense for that matter.) The irony of this is that CT had dropped out, stopped practicing and had not seen Rev Rawat for 15 years when we met 5 years ago. My satsang got him back into meditating and well......I'm not kicking myself. He really is much happier than he used to be since he started making an effort to be positive and optimistic. He calls it K. I call it ''not being lazy.'' CT expounds thus: It is true Carlos, that we are all incarnations of God, as God is omnipresent..that is when we are in reality..how often are we in reality?..only we know and of course the guru...It is just as easy to become tripped up by the finite mind as it is to go beyond it, once the momentum is firmly established...(Energy follows thought...if I think I am screwed up because of what has occured in the past, then the thoughts that follow that enegy are screwy..If I think I am fully elightened, then the thoughts that follow are higher and deeper but still thoughts)...However, when I meditate and go for that feeling of bliss consciousness, If I let it, that sound of the breath will drown out all thoughts...and if in samadhi, then as Jerry Garcia says: It all rolls into one...there is no sound that can disturb my concentration....the music becomes loud enough to drown out all sounds...the feeling is better than the sum of all my feelings...and the light washes over me, the witness, in waves....I am no different than anyone, nor higher...you are right the opposites of higher or lower are merging in what is Self-existant...in fact, I mostly cease to concern myself with other peoples consciousness...all people, places, and things disappear when I enter the 'within' and a Maharaji says, 'the infinite shows up'....it is this infinite state of consciousness that is beyond it all, including lesser states of consciousness...the amount of time(whatever that is) that I spend in meditation, only helps me with concentration, which Pantajali and everyone else says is the pre-requisite to meditation...so in that sense, there is a stage or state...I have also observed that if I practice for a lesser time in earth hours, there is still an experience that my soul longs for...I thank my lucky stars that I cut out all of the distractions to my meditation time (there is that word again...) because if I had not, then I would never be enjoying how the bliss keeps increasing...this mind,which I call mine, which Ramana Maharshi would merely call 'a bundle of thoughts', has gone through various stages, as will all finite minds. In the early stages, it bothers us, such as when we were teenagers...it assults us with all kinds of self-deprecating notions and as Maharaji says, feelings attach themselves to thoughts...so we have that feeling of not being loved or apreciated or understood...then as the mind matures, it realizes that the witness (us) is no longer bothered by the strong language or harsh negative thoughts and it switches to the subtle aproach...'you've been spending a lot of time in meditation these days, don't you think you should back off a bit, otherwise you'll get spaced out...'haven't you seen how we've gone from where I bothered you to where we are now?'...'I mean aren't we friends you seem so much happier and don't I work well in my intuition mode?' Haven't I helped you where once I distracted you?' and all this is true, we do through the process of meditation, become more together in all ways, including mentally. However, we all know that even this subtle process is part of finite mind...still, it is better and we feel better...it is at this point we realize the difference between being better than and better off than...obviously, someone who is 'training' the mind to be their servant is better off than someone who is being let around by a mind that is finite that thinks it is a person...but it is the person with the maturely developed mind who sees the difference...the words 'our betters' faded out with the Victorian era...people no longer think like that...everyone is striving for equality...how much more equal can we get than when we are in deep meditation?...there is only Oneness, or as Maharaji says, there is only you...Because of establishing a deep meditation practice, it becomes easier to create seperation between the divine energy that is the I AM, which is US in reality and everything else that is going on to distract us...I find Sanskrit chants to be invaluable in helping to thrust me into a deeper state of enjoyment...they resonate with the deepest part of my being and propell me into my center, which is the Spiritual Heart or the heart that Maharaji speaks of...they were brought to us by the realized sages over 6,000 years ago and they still hold true today..that is if you or I or anybody wants to experience the deep abiding peace that comes from the mind being still...then, what takes over is what Maharaji calls Self-knowledge...the knowledge that the Self is the reality and the mind is at best a tool which one day is discarded just as one day we will drop the body...there is nothing to fear in this it happens to everybody and it only applies to the finite realm...the true US is infinite and beyond all the limited mind-body games we are playing..it is fun and ok to play but we should try and keep the awareness of the One Consciousness and the One God, even in our devotion to a master..for it is this pure-awareness that the master is leading us to and helping us as Maharaji says 'I am helping you to the awareness of that which is keeping you alive...And here we go again, one more chance which is being offered in Pasadena...You know I have an Aunt who lives in La Canada which is right next door..she has been a blissful Christian all of her life. After I got Self-Knowledge from Maharaji in 72 in Montrose at Guru Puja, I came out to California to let her and my deceased uncle know that Maharaji was here with an ability to reveal this inner truth, which I called the Holy Spirit..they were happy with their religion, which is fine but they did miss the opportunity to see and perhaps talk with, one day, a living master. Now my uncle has passed away and my aunt is in her early 80's....I just wish I had been as clear as I feel now, then, because I may have been a catlyst for someone I love and who always treated me well, to attain this ultimate of truths...I am content to let her have her religion-dependent happiness but I am going for the ultimate happiness... Yogananda said this: 'Neither birth nor death, nor cast have I...father, mother, have I none. Blessed Spirit I am that..I am the Infinite Happiness... peace and love, CT

Subject: Seeking 'true selves' cost our identity From: Gail To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 12:08:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Remember signing up with Maharaji so that your 'true self' would appear? Instead, upon leaving the cult, there is very little identity left. We surrended all our own personal goals and dreams in pusuit of Nirvana. Now, it is very difficult to build a normal life. What's left? Not much! Many talents are now gone from decades of not being used. We worked to support our Maharaji habit. He once stated that the ONLY reason he would work would be to see his Guru Maharaji again.' I bought into that. Instead of having a wide variety of friends, I had only cult friends. Upon leaving, those people are gone. Even relationships with family are gone. My aunt missed my mother's funeral because I told her we would be making a stops in NYC and Miami to see Prem Pal before heading to Nova Scotia to bury my mother. That's right folks--I took my deceased mother along in the Motor Home across the border and all (we had to keep the air conditioning running). My aunt was not interested in this pilgrimage. Maharaji was always first for me! So, after decades in this mindset, I realize that I erased my true identity for what I thought was my ticket to heaven. I gave control and responsiblity over to Maharaji. All those years I should have been building a personal life were spent in his stupidity. There is no quick fix to repair all the damage.

Subject: Re: Seeking 'true selves' cost our identity From: Anandaji To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 21:26:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am finding that the void is beginning to fill with some interesting things. I am feeling more gratitude for real people in my life (not a stupid guru). I am recovering some talents. I like to write and am writing more and more each day, and it isn't just drival. Spiritually, I am feeling much more alive than before. I am basing spirituality much more on what is real,i.e., the good feelings of really feeling connected to friends, family and even strangers. At first (last December) I felt depressed and confused, but now life is opening up. I feel that, despite hitting 58 next week, there is still time for me to recover much of my true identity. Besides, I believe we actually live forever, which, obviously, should give us more time than we need. Anandaji

Subject: Good to know she was cremated... From: Cynthia To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 18:48:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gail, I know how you feel because I sometimes get a glimpse of talents lost, forsaken, forgotten, though I don't let myself dwell there too much. Sometimes self-pity is good though. We're conditioned not to have any. Who can we pity best but ourselves? No one could do better. Yet in my life I cannot linger there for long because there is so much to live and love for. Thanks for reminding me of that quote about 'working to see my goomraji' because that was my total mindset. Nothing was as valuable as seeing him. That was the cult talk at the time not only by him but in satsang that I gave and others gave. A spiritual self-reinforcement regimen. You're right, Gail, there's no quick fix. No panacea for happiness. That's what's gone wrong in our society too. I kept getting these pop updiet ads in my email account so I finally hit reply and wrote in huge letters: STOP TELLING ME I'M FAT!!!! then I clicked send. How would the internet know how much I weigh? It's ridiculous! I cannot tolerate anyone telling me how to be ever again in my life. I suppose that's the benefit or result of learning the hard way about cults. I cannot exert my energies into other spiritual quests either. My new regimen is to not focus on anything that tells me to change and be different. I'm tired of being told by the 1,150,000 available websites about 'teachings' on Google that they can make me better than I aleady am, because I'm good! All are people who want my money to fix me. It's ridiculous. It's so silly and superficial. You have an identity Gail. It may be out of your focus right now but it surely has to be there otherwise you'd be on a coma ward somewhere.;) I hope you got your Mother to her destination on your way back from the program:):) I laughed when I read your post because I envisioned something quite different than cremated... Be well, Cynthia

Subject: And wouldn't we all have done the same From: Moley To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 18:07:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course we would... That's right folks--I took my deceased mother along in the Motor Home across the border and all (we had to keep the air conditioning running). Postponed Birth, Marriage and Death for Rawat! Love to you Moley xxx

Subject: Holi Cow! From: Jim To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:48:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God, Gail, are you serious!!!!!!

Subject: Re: Seeking 'true selves' cost our identity From: Richard To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 15:18:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't recall ever hearing a story so revealing of the depth of programming we were subjected to. We all took detours in our lives to attend to guru puja but yours is the most graphic I've ever heard. The only way I know of to regain our humanity is to engage with humanity. By telling the truth and embracing our family and friends, we can get back on track and love ourselves. All the best to you Gail. Love, Richard

Subject: Re: Seeking 'true selves' cost our identity From: CA To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 13:22:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gail- for what it's worth, I share your bitterness and regret... I find myself in a similar situation in my life, but hey, what are we going to do? I can only wallo in self pity for so long... it's time to breath and be strong, get back up and start walking toward new goals. Life is in progress and there is a LOT left to live. Rejoice that you are free from the bondage of the cult and its leader. At least that's one mistake we won't be making again.. Good luck to you.

Subject: I gotta get outta here... From: PatD To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 12:32:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's right folks--I took my deceased mother along in the Motor Home across the border and all (we had to keep the air conditioning running). My aunt was not interested in this pilgrimage. Maharaji That's got to be one of the worst recollections I've read here.I've got to take a break before I lose my sense of humour.I can see the funny side to your story.......only just.

Subject: She was cremated!!!! From: Gail To: PatD Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:01:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gotcha! However, I did have her tombstone with us. It was supposed to be a trip to bury my mother. She had died five months earlier.

Subject: You got me alright From: PatD To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 12:04:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was seeing your younger self as a cross between Danny deVito & Peter Cushing.....something like that. Naughty!

Subject: Re: She was cremated!!!! From: Jim To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:50:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I should have read this first.

Subject: Was the 'Mutiny' fully explained? From: la-ex To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 07:07:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After reading Neville's poem, with the reference to the 'uprising' in amaroo, and John MCG's reference to it in his original post, I am still not sure what happened there in the late 90's, to cause the 'insurgence'.....did the workers revolt?....were there mobs with pitchforks at the gates angrily demanding something?.... I'm still not sure what caused the 'divine mutiny', and what the response was... Has this ever been fully explained? If so, where? If not, could someone elaborate?

Subject: the Mutiny From: J McG To: la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 06:21:36 (PDT) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: Hi la-ex, I explained the mutiny in my 'trainings' post, now on EPO, if you want a bit of detail. Really, all that happened was that several of us resigned from Amaro's management because of disagreements with the way the place was run. This followed a 'Prague Spring' when some of us in management introduced reforms - such as involving on-the-ground premies in decision-making, and making the minutes of our meetings publicly available. This was quickly crushed. Some of us quit immediately. It was Maharaji who called this a 'mutiny'. Most premies didn't even know it had happened, at the time. Which says something about the group psychology at Amaroo, given that everyone expressed extreme guilt and remorse for their 'sins' in the penitence sessions which were established in the mutiny's wake - i.e. without knowing what these sins even were, for the most part. The mutiny not only led to Valerio's visit (and the penitence sessions where gallons of tears were shed), but, in the longer term, I believe, it may have led to the trainings, which were a kind of mid-life devotional re-boot. Perhaps the mutiny gave Maharaji a little fright. Regards, John

Subject: Hey Bai Ji. From: Tony To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 23:58:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bai Ji.Remember me.Back in Division street Cooge in about 1976.I was your big brother figure.I was best mates with Keith(having the same surname as you)I just read your dilemma on Recent Exes.Would you like to email me and have a chat.if so I will send you my email here on this forum. I look forward to talking with you. Tony W.

Subject: How're you doing, grandpa? From: PatC To: Tony Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 00:26:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If that's you, grandpa, take care of Bai Ji.

Subject: Re: How're you doing, grandpa? From: Tony To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 02:45:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Will Do Pat me ol' mate.How are they hangin'? Cheers, Tony.

Subject: Doing great, thanks. :C) [nt] From: PatC To: Tony Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 09:41:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Oh, this is the problem! From: Vicki To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 13:03:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We took a wrong turn. We were SUPPOSED to be headed for Divine Life not Divine Light! Divine Life www.sivanandadlshq.org/aims.htm

Subject: vomit [nt] From: Anandaji To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 21:47:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Impressive pile! From: PatD To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 13:57:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder how long it'll take them to rebuild it,should Prem fall down on the job of turning the bombs into petals.Shit,it doesn't belong to him,I'm all confused,probably he'll only save his own H.Q.& could you blame him....crisp the usurpers. An unnamed Indian army officer said the other day.....'25 million dead,we can absorb that,but can they'. Brighter than a thousand suns,too right; these guys better get their act together.Time is coming soon.

Subject: My God Can Beat Up Your God From: PatC To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 13:47:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Vicki, Divine Life has a huge following among the Indians in South Africa - more than Rawat's. All these Indian gods in bods are just too much for me. I prefer this guys take on it. My God Can Beat Up Your God by Richard Bamford My god can beat up your god. Do you know his name? Sure you do. He talks to you every day. You could not live a normal life without him. You believe in him, whether you like it or not. Unless you abandon him completely, you cannot deny he exists. My god is a more personal god than yours can ever be, for if you have enough sense to understand these words, my god lives within you. He lives within us all, to some degree. A heartbreaking few cannot understand him, but this is not their fault. The real tragedy is the multitudes who ignore much of his counsel, particularly when he questions your god too deeply. My god has been around longer than your god. He was here before the many other gods that preceded your god. Though you will likely scoff at the notion, my god was the father of your god, as he was to all gods. But that was long ago when he was young and not yet sure of himself. Though many of your god's followers try to hold him down, my god grows stronger and more independent each day. When your god expelled us from paradise for eating an apple, my god taught us to grow our own fruit. When your god forbade knowledge, demanding we live in ignorance, my god created books. When your god smote cities like a tantrum-prone child, my god helped to rebuild them. When your god insisted the world was flat, my god showed his followers it was round, to their peril at the hands of your god's followers. While your god watched in silence as children sickened and died, my god created medicines to make them well. When your god winked and nodded at slavery, my god argued passionately against it. While your god represses half the human race, my god considers woman to be the equal of man. When your god only helps those who help themselves, my god rolls up his sleeves and actually does help until your god decides to join in, and then steals all the credit. When your god inspired great buildings and great art, my god made them possible. While your god says we are all born sinners, tainted before we even draw breath, my god says we are all born innocent; a clean slate with limitless potential. While your god offers dubious allusions of an afterlife, my god provides for us here in this life. While your god makes amazing promises, but offers not a shred of proof, my god performs amazing deeds, and the proof is there to be seen by all. While your god demands blind faith and obsequious obedience, my god encourages questions, even about himself. When your god says 'Thou shalt not,' my god says 'You can do anything.' My god is reason. He does more in a day than your god will ever do.

Subject: Re: Oh, this is the problem! From: Thorin To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 13:45:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Something is wrong here. The Divine Life society has a line up of sages and saints but somehow have missed out on including Prem. On a different point I have promised myself that I would no longer seek out Gurus for my enlightenment. I am no longer sure - the guy who's picture I have linked to seems totally 'above it all'. Off to Rishekish I go ..... warmly, Thorin www.sivanandadlshq.org/images/neemkaroli.jpg

Subject: Re: Oh, this is the problem! From: Dep To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 09:03:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC is right. This is Neem Karoli Baba a beautiful guy and the inspiration behind Ram Dass's book Be Here Now. Unfortunately he died in 1973.

Subject: So, what was so beautiful about him? From: Tonette To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 11:27:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, this well fed Guru, inspired one of his followers to write a new agey book, Be Here Now. I wonder how much of the royalities this Indian Guru, holy man, got via his devotee's donations. What happened to the author? Might have to track him down by his birth name because he wasn't born named Ram Dass. Or did good old Ram just merge with the light or something? Seriously it would be fun to find out. And speaking of enlightened souls, I am having a hard time recalling any good works that Neem left behind in memorial. He did have quite a following, lots of people who would exhale when they needed to inhale, lots of ready hands. So, how exactly did he make this world a better place? It's worth looking at. Tonette

Subject: Richard Alpert From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 11:34:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He had a stroke a few years ago. He lives here in the Bay Area and still gives a few talks.

Subject: Re: Richard Alpert From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 14:16:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jeez Pat is that a fair description of Ram Dass? He was huge in the 60s and 70s and led many people to the Spirit. IMO one of the greats of the 20th century. But in all fairness I wouldn't expect an oaf like Tonette to know that.

Subject: I did a little experiment From: Tonette, the oaf To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 11:13:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just happened to have a copy of the book 'Remember Be Here Now.' In looking at it again and it's comic page layout, remember the drawings?, I had to laugh at myself. How did I ever see anything remotely sane portrayed in this book? Anyway, my experiment. I asked my daughter, age 11, does that qualify for the heart of a child?, to take a look at the book and read a little. So, what did she think? I quote, 'This is weird mom but it's got cool pictures.' 'What is this book about? It looks crazy.' 'Who's this guy? Does he have cancer or something? He looks really sick.' She was looking at a picture of Ram Dass at the height of his cult inflicted thinking. 'This guy looks really mean or angry. Who is he?' She said this when she was looking at the Maharaji. Then I read her the story about when Ram has a virtual spiritual nervous breakdown because he ate a 'couple of english biscuits.' And how Maharaji was able to discern that Ram ate these biscuits by eating oranges while old Ram was weeping her reply, 'What's wrong with biscuits?' I couldn't resist, I did have her audience after all. I pulled out the 'Peace Bomb' satsang. I got to perhaps the third paragraph, her attention was waining after all, she's had enough bullshit for one day, when she said, 'He's lying.' I did not tell her who or what I was reading. I just asked for what she thought. So, what does this prove? Absolutely nothing! But it's an unadulterated perspective from the heart of a child. For me, I know now that for me to align myself and adopt the type of thinking and values illustrated and portrayed in the likes of 'Be Here Now,' made me oh so ripe for the picking by the likes of Guru Maharaji or any number of other charlatans who operate under the guise of 'spiritual.' You supposedly realize that Guru Maharaji is one and the same of what I described. A fraud. So, why do you keep looking for trouble? Have you not learned a lesson? And how can you not equate Ram Das and his Maharaji with just another scam. Beautiful you say? I did a paper for a class I am taking. I explored, researched, and tallied. How many human lives have been lost since our recorded human history to disease, plaque, famine, natural disasters. In other words, Mother Nature, God if you will. Now how many human lives have been extinguished in war? Although wars are economic in nature, the only way to get them fought is by giving them a religious or moral title for the most part. Guess what? Mankind with his agenda is running neck and neck with mother nature. In other words, we are our own worst enemy. But why am I bothering with this post? Now that's what's really nuts. Tonette

Subject: Hey Deputy Dog... From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 16:07:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Did you read my post below to you in response to yours regarding Landmark? You seem to have a real attitude. I don't know you, but why all the insults? Tonette is a professional woman who works very hard, she's smart, savy and I consider her my friend. I don't like your tone. What's your problem? I don't understand. If you want to contribute here, contribute! But don't expect to bring up long lost has-been gurus like Ram Dass, who I was reading as a teenager. I'm curious. What exactly is it that you are searching for? This is a serious question. You're not going to find alternative religions, new-age gurus, nor mass therapy advocates here. Don't you know that by now? With all due respect, you've got me baffled. Care to respond? Best, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Hey Cynthia From: Dep To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 18:25:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I brought up long lost has-been guru Ram Dass in response to an above post from Thorin. To me he is not a 'has been' and I still very much admire and respect the man.

Subject: Why Ram Dass is indeed a has-been From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 18:48:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: While it's true that Ram Dass continues to impress some and even does good, praise-worthy work for the blind in India (what's it called? The Seva Foundation or something?), he is most definitely a has-been in the sense that the millions who admired and respected his 'wisdom' have all pretty much turned their back on his chatty, hindu rehash as naive nonsense. He was, for a brief period, a generation's leader. Now he's a humourous footnote. Yes, he still has a small following. Or, if you don't like that word, how about contingent of people who'll come out to hear him talk, buy his books. But it's a mere sliver of the block he used to impress. Hey, that reminds me of someone!

Subject: To Dep From: Thorin To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 14:47:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Shucks Dep So the guy inspired a few tens of thousands of followers and got some guys to write some books. So what? Where did that lead his followers? Why do you find him so uplifting? Has it helped you, indeed has anything helped you? I normally resist being negative on this forum (or indeed anywhere I go) but to describe Tonnete as an oaf is simply beyond the pale. I have always found Tonette to be one of the most inspired, sane, down-to-earth, rationale persons, a person that is filled with tons of compassion, understanding, humour and intelligence. I could go on but I am sure you get the picture. Get real Dep, examine your mindset, have a vacation, chill out, show some love. But for heavens sake don't be so wrapped up in your little beliefs and adapt such an ongoing aloof tone in 'most' of your posts. This spiritual chauvinism you display really grates. Warmly, Thorin

Subject: Tonette's not an oaf, Dep From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 14:39:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: She's my kind of gal. Alpert's Be Here Now did change my life when I first read it while doing a lot of acid in a commune in Hackney. It also nearly drove me nuts trying to be here now. I got suckered by that one. How can you strive to be here now when you are here now? It also primed me to be conned by a sleazy Hindu guru. I think what Tonette and Jim and I are trying to tell you is that we are already enlightened, already being here now, already quite satisfied with what we've got and don't have the same sort of driven spiritual dementia that drove us all into the cult many years ago. But I doubt if you'll see that because it seems as if you believe that human beings are somehow missing something vital which they have to seek and find instead of seeing that ordinary folk are perfect just the way they are. All this spiritual stuff that you go on about really is only pursued nowadays by stoned hippie Hindus who would be better off getting an education and decent jobs. A lot of us have moved on from the sixties. Have you? Still stoned after all these years?

Subject: Permanent superficiality -- scary, isn't it? From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 16:42:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog cannot see below the surface of anything. Why? Because that would entail thinking, analysis, a more sophisticated and worldy approach to life. Dog's just not there. He's willfully, permanently superficial.

Subject: That's Ram Dass' guru Maharaji From: PatC To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 13:54:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For your amusement - Mark Twain on God: The Bible tells about creation. God did it. He did not call it the 'universe.' That name is modern. His whole attention was upon our world. He constructed it in five days?and then? It took him only the one remaining day to make 20 million suns and 80 million planets and 8 billion galaxies. Darwin was wrong. Man has certainly, obviously, not ascended from any lower animals. He has, quite obviously, descended from the Higher Animals, the apes and primates, to the lower animal that man now is?(stupidly fighting over religious creeds and doctrines?man made). Now I am going to really put a strain upon you. Man thinks he is the noblest work of God. This is the truth I am telling you. Man really believes that. He even hires preachers to tell him so once a week. And very few even laugh. Man, the special pet, whom God has given mumps, measles, whooping cough, croup, colds, asthma, bronchitis, itch, cancer, cholera, typhus, piles, constipation, warts, pimples, boils, corns, tumors, insanity, jaundice, bunions, abscesses, diseases of every organ in the body, but why continue the list??

Subject: Is this your website, Dep? From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 11:51:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just kidding but this guy has got almost as big a smorgasbord of spirituality as you. Actually I just wanted to start a new thread so that I could delete the ****crap below without making the attack on Moley stick out too much. PS Moley - when I can I delete that crap? Is this your website, Dep? www.heartspace.org/misc/teachers.html

Subject: Actually, Phil's an, um ... ex? From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:00:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's his White Pages entry: Servedio, Phil Date: March 19, 1997 Email: philserve@yahoo.com Resides: San Rafael, CA USA Was a premie from: 1975 At age: 20 Premie until: 1985 Premie houses/ashrams lived in: Buffalo, NY 1975 - 1985 Personal web page: http://www.heartspace.org Web page topic: Essays, journals & poetry on spiritual realization,understanding & practice

Subject: Phil's OK From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:43:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I emailed Phil a few years back. Nice enough guy. I think he's enlightened now or something. About time, I'd say.

Subject: Oh my God!!!!! From: Gail To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 12:19:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope this guy finds what he's looking for. He's a seeker for sure! I wonder how many cults he has to join to get the message. I'm surprised he hasn't given up by now.

Subject: No PatC, it is not my website, and . . . From: Dep =) To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 08:53:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I find it very interesting. This guy Phil Servedio seems like a really interesting guy who is living a rich full life getting into what he loves. I have added his site to my favourites. Thanks! Phil has outdone me big time and done way more than I have. In the 80s I started a family and couldn't afford to go gallivanting around India. However, I have read about 90% of the books he recommends and like Phil was hugely influenced by Alan Watts. I also started meditating with TM but have also taken est (aka The Landmark Forum) which he hasn't done. The latest thing I'm into is The Work by Byron Katie. She has a book out entitled Loving What Is which I heartily recommend. Katie feels that everyone is a mirror image of yourself, your own thinking coming back at you. It just goes to prove that there are a lot of interesting and rewarding meditations, philosophies, yogas (raj, hatha, raj, and jnana), and places to visit out there. Maybe that's where many of the exes who have moved on have gone. As M said years ago, 'If you like it fine. If you don't like it walk.' Well, for a 'soul man' there are a lot of interesting and transforming places to walk to and maybe even disappear from. You can light a candle or curse the darkness. Just keep coming home to yourself. You are the one you have been waiting for. =)

Subject: Well since you're here again From: hamzen To: Dep =) Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 13:41:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interested in carrying on our discussion re the racist attacks in oldham last summer? The asian community there were invaded by nasty and brutish combat 18 (a neo-nazi group) football hooliagans from two different teams who would normally fight each other. They decided to call a truce and indulge themselves in a little spot of 'paki-bashing' as they so quaintly call it. Now from your comment re fighting or defending yourself being pointless what would you have done in their situation, just let them walk through that community, maybe torch a few houses, beat up a few pakis? Would you defend your family if they were attacked? It's all very well having sweet and soulful spiritual views, but it only works because you abnigate responsibility and rely on others to deal with the 'messy' situations. Personally that's what I hate about 'spiritual' communities, an inability to cope with the brutishness ogf this world. One of the reasons I left premiedom. In the 70's here we had an upserge of racism also, and while we were all saying how crazy this world is, and letting the racists get away with blue murder, the punks and anti-racists got in there and mixed it, and lo and behold they were beaten, and the racist surge dropped off. Maybe you think it was all our meditating that really saved the day, that and the guru's 'compassion'.. People like combat 18 and for that matter adolf hitler revel in the kind of pacificism you and other new agers and spiritual idealists exhibit.

Subject: Yes, I thought you'd like it.... [nt] From: PatC To: Dep =) Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 11:32:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I don't want to spar with you, however... From: Tonette To: Dep =) Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 09:36:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When are you going to come home? You Deputy. When are you going to realise you have never left? When are you going to get tired of focusing on yourself? Don't you get tired of being full of 'yourself?' Are you that wonderful of company? Haven't you had every waking moment and all those in between of your life to get enough of 'yourself?' To figure it out already? The big 'Truth?' If you want to know what you are really made of study anatomy and physiology. Take a gander at your cells thru an electron microscope. But if you want to know about life and it's purpose extend yourself. Try doing something for someone else for starters. I just don't get you. Is it Arabic or Russian that you are speaking? I mean no offense, truly. Tonette

Subject: Re: I don't want to spar with you, however... From: Dep To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 10:29:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When am I going to come home? Every time I meditate. When am I going to realise I have never left? Well, I actually did leave. I once was lost and now I'm found. When are you going to get tired of focusing on yourself? Don't you get tired of being full of 'yourself?' Are you that wonderful of company? I have a large family that I love and when I meditate I lose myself. Full of myself? I know who I am without my story. Haven't you had every waking moment and all those in between of your life to get enough of 'yourself?' To figure it out already? The big 'Truth?' Depends on what you mean by 'yourself.' I like spirituality and the same kind of stuff Phil Servedio likes. Sorry, don't like golf. If you want to know what you are really made of study anatomy and physiology. Take a gander at your cells thru an electron microscope. Wow! Find myself by looking outside. What a fantastic concept! What I've discovered is that when I tried everything and nothing else worked, the last place I looked was inside. That worked. But if you want to know about life and it's purpose extend yourself. Try doing something for someone else for starters. How do you know I don't? Maybe my posting here is doing something for others. Many have told me they like my posts. You are obviously not one of them. I just don't get you. Is it Arabic or Russian that you are speaking? I don't get you either. I speak English. I mean no offense, truly. . No, and why would I take offence? I mean, why would I take offence when someone insults me?

Subject: I didn't insult you, no I didn't. From: Tonette To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 10:56:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I asked questions and you answered them sort of. And I did mean it when I said I meant no offense. I have no idea what makes you really tick. You're such a complex quagmire of spiritual concepts. There's lots of people that make the world go around. You impress me as the type of person that if we were looking at a sunset together a conversation might go like this: Tonette: Look isn't that sunset beautiful? The sky is so purple! Deputy Dog: Oh yeah, it is beautiful but the sky is pink. BTW, what is your real first name? And how did I insult you? What was it that hurt your feelings? Tonette

Subject: Re: I didn't insult you, no I didn't. From: Dep To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 14:08:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I asked questions and you answered them sort of. And I did mean it when I said I meant no offense. I have no idea what makes you really tick. You're such a complex quagmire of spiritual concepts. There's lots of people that make the world go around. You impress me as the type of person that if we were looking at a sunset together a conversation might go like this: Tonette: Look isn't that sunset beautiful? The sky is so purple! Deputy Dog: Oh yeah, it is beautiful but the sky is pink. BTW, what is your real first name? And how did I insult you? What was it that hurt your feelings? Tonette --- Tonette, No you really didn't insult me. You couldn't do that. You did confuse me though. You see people like Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Nanak, Socrates etc. have all said that the truth is within. Then you came along and said it could be seen outside in a microscope. Then I thought 'Gee maybe Tonette's right and Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Nanak, Socrates etc. are all wrong.' And I did have a moment of confusion, I must admit. If we were looking at a sunset together a conversation might go like this: Tonette: Look isn't that sunset beautiful? The sky is so purple! Dep: Yeah, I've gotta run because I don't like hanging out with people like you.

Subject: Whatever. Oil and water will never mix. From: Tonette To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 09:29:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Dog, Christ, what is your first name at least. Deputy Dog seems so juvenile! Anyway, what I meant by suggesting you take a gander into a microscope is in fact, that if you want to see the real inside of yourself, take a look at your cellular self. After all, that is another way to look inside. It's all inside of you, perfectly orchestrated, recently evolved. It's all there, already. These spiritual masters are not selling anything new. And frankly, how can you credit the likes of Jesus, Budda, Lao Tzu, ect., ect., ect.? Ever meet them? Trust the translations do you? Don't you think some of their words might of been just a little changed over the years to suit the agenda of the leaders at that time? History has more enlightened souls than carter ever had little liver pills. So, where is the Jesus of today? Who is the latest Lao Tzu? I'll tell you who. It's people like Maharaji, the Catholic Church with their 'holy pope,' Ram Dass and his ugly fat guru, that's who here. And they feed on and prey on the likes of you. Never stop looking for that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Sorry you don't like people like me. Kinda limits your horizons now doesn't it?

Subject: Like I said -- MAJOR disconnect happening From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:05:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog cannot for the life of him understand how blindered he is. What would be truly interesting, if the world cared that much, if Dog wasn't just another 2/3 finished life in a world of almost six billion more, would be to actually force him to learn something outside of his stupid scriptural stuff. Some science, is what I'm thinking. But, alas, that won't happen and Dog will continue to sleepwalk through this forum like Sweet Pea in an old Popeye cartoon.

Subject: study anatomy - does navel-gazing count? [nt] From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 09:44:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: PatC, I thought you liked meditation? [nt] From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 14:10:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: No, Dep, I don't like meditation From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 14:46:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I love meditation. BTW, Scocrates never said anything about ''looking within.'' I study Greek history and philosophy and have never read that. Of course Socrates left no writing and all we know about him is what Plato wrote about him. Now please point out where Socrates says that. Is it in Plato's Symposium? Yes, Buddha and the rest of the Indian imbeciles you mention did say that. Do you know what they meant? All they meant was that your happiness is up to you and not someone else - including socalled masters.

Subject: Re: No, Dep, I don't like meditation From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 18:38:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I love meditation. BTW, Scocrates never said anything about ''looking within.'' I study Greek history and philosophy and have never read that. Of course Socrates left no writing and all we know about him is what Plato wrote about him. Now please point out where Socrates says that. Is it in Plato's Symposium? Yes, Buddha and the rest of the Indian imbeciles you mention did say that. Do you know what they meant? All they meant was that your happiness is up to you and not someone else - including socalled masters. --- Socrates never said anything about 'looking within?' Didn't he say 'Know thyself?' Doesn't that mean the same thing? On the other hand, maybe Socrates, Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu were all superficial and suffering from a MAJOR disconnect? PatC, I wouldn't be posting here if you hadn't asked if the Phil Servideo website was mine. (BTW Phil is also also suffering from a MAJOR disconnect.) So don't encourage me PatC. And I know that my happiness is up to me because I have never asked an Indian imbecile to meditate for me.

Subject: No, Dep, it's not the same From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 19:33:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You: ''Socrates never said anything about 'looking within?' Didn't he say 'Know thyself?' Doesn't that mean the same thing?'' Of course it does not mean the same thing. If he had meant ''look within'' he would have said so. He said ''Know oneself.'' In Plato's Alcibiades I and Alcibiades II, Socrates is having a discussion with his lover, Alcibiades. Alcibiades was a teenager when he first fell in love with Socrates. He was gossiped about by the Athenians because he had pursued the older man and had not been pursued by him as was the custom. He had in fact been rejected by Socrates when he was a boy and that had hurt his reputation as a teenage stud. Socrates was in fact not much interested in the Athenian penchant for pederasty. (Plato used the love of Alcibiades for Socrates as the epitome of true love - the ''marriage of true minds.'' From this we get the ideal of ''Platonic'' or pure love.) Alcibiades was also the scion of one of the wealthiest families and had to take his place in the ruling class. It was probably because of Socrates influence over the sons of the ruling class (they followed him around the agora and hung on his every word) that he was condemned to death for ''corrupting the youth of Athens.'' Also he didn't fancy little boys and criticised men who did. And all the good old boys did fancy youths so Socrates was hated by the establishment. In the following dialogue between Socrates and Alcibiades they are talking about Alcibiades' pending responsibility as one of the ruling class. There is a long discussion where Socrates questions the young man about how he can ever rule if he is so ignorant and probably knows less than those whom he has rule. It is an exhaustive inventory of Alcibiades ignorance. Finally they reach that part of the discourse wherein Socrates says those famous words (which really are not too cosmic I'm afraid.) All that Socrates is doing is deflating Alcibiades' ego, showing him that he is ignorant and unfit to rule. SOCRATES So is there anything of the soul more divine than this, which is concerned with knowing and thinking? ALCIBIADES There isn't. SOCRATES Then this part of her is like the divine, and one looking into this also comes to know the divine, and thus would especially know oneself. ALCIBIADES Apparently. SOCRATES And do we agree that to know oneself is to be sensible? ALCIBIADES Certainly. SOCRATES So then not knowing ourselves nor being sensible are we able to know our own belongings bad and good? ALCIBIADES How could that be, Socrates? SOCRATES For perhaps it appears to you impossible that not knowing Alcibiades it's possible to know that Alcibiades' belongings are Alcibiades'. ALCIBIADES It's impossible, by God. SOCRATES Nor even that our belongings are ours, if we don't know ourselves? ALCIBIADES How could we? SOCRATES And then if not our belongings, not the business of our belongings either? ALCIBIADES Apparently not. SOCRATES And whoever is ignorant of one's own belongings, would also probably be ignorant of others', and if of others' belongings, then of others' business. ALCIBIADES What then? SOCRATES Then one will also be ignorant of the state's business. ALCIBIADES Necessarily. SOCRATES Then such a person could never be a statesman. ALCIBIADES Of course not. SOCRATES Nor an economist either. ALCIBIADES No. SOCRATES Nor will they know what they're doing. ALCIBIADES They won't. SOCRATES And won't the ones not knowing make mistakes? ALCIBIADES Certainly.

Subject: Socrates, the poster boy for 'Prickly' From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 20:31:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some time ago Dog posted some junk from Alan Watts about how people were 'gooey' or 'prickly'. The former feel, the latter think. Something like that. Dog explained how, seeing as he's gooey, he doesn't have to know anything. (Oh, besides knowing the unknown, or the unthinkable, or that which cannot be explained, or the peace that passeth all understanding, etc.). Socrates, however, was the complete epitome of prickly. He wanted to know and he wanted to use his mind fully to find out. He enthusiastically explored whatever 'scientific' knowledge there was in his day and questioned everything. Dog's exploitation of that ambiguous phrase flies in the face of each and every one of Socrates' dialogues.

Subject: It's spiritual Pokemon From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 12:12:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A friend's kid used to be totally into Pokemon. The ad slogan is Gotta collect 'em all! or something similar, referring to the caché of accumulating all of the 250 characters available. Similar to the Beanie Baby fascination. In this guy's case, one guru wasn't enough so why not collect 'em all? When his awakening comes, he'll be multiple ex-ing big time.

Subject: Re: It's spiritual Pokemon From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 12:35:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just loved the picture of the Jain master, Muni Sushil Kumar, with the Post-It note over his mouth. :P And his time with Da Freejohn: ''One of the most important events was the beginning of the unraveling of the causal knot on the right side of the heart...'' Perhaps he should have used a granny knot.

Subject: Re: It's spiritual Pokemon From: Bolly Shri To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 08:45:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! Are you the PatC that was not posting again for awhile? so you need help exiting the exes huh! LOL Bolly

Subject: His site gives EPO a good review! From: cq To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 09:09:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Surprisingly enough, that guy's site has links not only to M's homepage but also to EPO! About which he has this to say: 'ex-premie.org, an excellent resource site for former devotees of Guru Maharaji. In addition to the usual pro-con polemics, it gives an analysis of the historical background of the tradition from which Maharaji emerged.' link here www.heartspace.org/misc/links.html

Subject: Most of the anti-cult websites... From: Cynthia To: cq Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 16:16:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Most of the cult awareness websites have a link to EPO where ever DLM/Maharaji/EV/ are mentioned. I guess they are impressed by the great efforts of the people who have so diligently put the site together.

Subject: This is an anti-cult website??? From: cq To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 04:10:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Phil's put together an extremely impressive personal website there, but no way could it be described as an anti-cult website! Have a look (link above) and see what you think. www.heartspace.org www.heartspace.org/ www.heartspace.org/images/Indra_r15_c26.jpg

Subject: Dalai Lama From: Chris McGillon To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 06:17:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Platitudes of the Dalai Lama Curious, even disturbing, is the way so many non-Buddhist Australians blur the lines between respect, reverence and worship in their attitudes toward the Dalai Lama. Critical reflection on the man and his message hardly seems to figure in their estimation of him. This is not entirely the fault of the Dalai Lama. His visit to Australia last week was not a promotional tour and he is adamant that he is not in the business of seeking converts. Indeed, the Dalai Lama consistently cautions people against switching from their religion to his or believing that they can fully understand even the meditative traditions of Buddhism without a strong background in Buddhist practice and theory. But you don't have to become a devotee to nonetheless be taken in. The Dalai Lama seeks to excite the 'innate spiritual nature' of people so that they might choose kindness and affection in their relations to others rather than anger, hatred or the temptation to exploit. Christian church leaders promote the same message, but when they do they tend to be ignored or scorned, whereas the Dalai Lama is regarded as a welcome breath of fresh air. This is partly because his approach is intuitive rather than discursive, inclusive rather than exclusive, gently encouraging rather than reproachful or overly instructive. With the Dalai Lama one seems to be getting the essence of religious insight without the froth and bubble of dogma and doctrine or the hard and fast rules of moral behaviour. The trouble is that when religion is leeched in this fashion of too much content, all that is left is platitudes - or worse, banalities. Take the Dalai Lama's answer to a question put to him at the National Press Club in Canberra on Friday about his views on euthanasia. Like abortion, he said through an interpreter (thus choosing his words carefully), 'these are very complex issues on which it is very difficult to make generalised statements because the individuality of each context would be so different that it is something that needs to be judged - the merits of its decision - based upon context by context'. You would get more enlightenment than this listening to Lisa tackle a moral dilemma in an episode of The Simpsons. In fact many of the Dalai Lama's comments on international problems and their solutions - the sort of complex issues on which he is prepared to make generalised statements - tend towards the naivety of a primary school pupil at an end-of-year speech night. When children talk about the need for more caring and sharing in the world, adults smile knowingly - which is to say that we, unlike they, appreciate life's complexities. Ironically, when the Dalai Lama says the same thing, we call it wisdom and applaud. The other part of the Dalai Lama's appeal is his exoticness. He is unusual, as well as untypical, which is interesting in itself but also means he represents something people can dabble in without understanding too much about it and thus having to be fully challenged, engaged or, dare one say, committed. The Dalai Lama, of course, plays down his distinctiveness and for this he can and should be criticised. He claims to be just another ordinary human being but nothing could be further from the truth. How many ordinary human beings are believed by millions of people to be the living emanation of the Buddha of compassion? How many have won a Nobel Peace Prize (as the Dalai Lama did in 1989)? How many ordinary human beings are global celebrities with a global network of powerful and influential friends? How many hob-nob it with movie stars or have had Hollywood genuflect before them as the Dalai Lama did when Martin Scorsese made Kundun in 1997 - a film that was virtually an authorised biography of the Tibetan leader? The Dalai Lama's popularity in the West says much about its need for heroes, its search for meaning, its longing for those things (holiness, integrity) that seem to be missing from many of its institutions. And yet Western culture stands for just about everything a Buddhist is supposed to renounce. The relationship, in other words, is intriguing and as it develops it may benefit both sides in ways that can't now be imagined. But nobody is going to get too far unless each party is frank with the other and dismissive of mere pap.

Subject: Platitudes of the Maharaji of Malibu From: PatC To: Chris McGillon Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 10:51:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Curious, even disturbing, is the way so many Australian premies blur the lines between respect, reverence and worship in their attitudes toward Maharaji. Critical reflection on the man and his message hardly seems to figure in their estimation of him. This is not entirely the fault of Maharaji. His visit to Australia last month was not a promotional tour and he is adamant that he is not in the business of seeking converts. Indeed, Maharaji consistently cautions people against switching from their religion to his or believing that they can fully understand even the meditative traditions of self-knowledge without a strong background in watching videos for five months. But you don't have to become a devotee to nonetheless be taken in. In fact many of Maharaji's comments on international problems and their solutions - the sort of complex issues on which he is prepared to make generalised statements - tend towards the naivety of a primary school pupil at an end-of-year speech night. When children talk about the need for more caring and sharing in the world, adults smile knowingly - which is to say that we, unlike they, appreciate life's complexities. Ironically, when the Maharaji says the same thing, we call it wisdom and applaud. The other part of Maharaji's appeal is his exoticness. He is unusual, as well as untypical, which is interesting in itself but also means he represents something people can dabble in without understanding too much about it and thus having to be fully challenged, engaged or, dare one say, committed. Maharaji, of course, plays down his distinctiveness and for this he can and should be criticised. He claims to be just another ordinary human being but nothing could be further from the truth. How many ordinary human beings are believed by millions of people to be the living emanation of Krishna?

Subject: The first time I saw your face From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 06:16:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Out of interest, does anyone recall ever taking someone to see Maharaji for the first time where the introducee was utterly entanced by Maharaji in the way that premies often/usually are? And by this I don't mean someone who has listened to large amounts of satsang or whatever, and has already formulated an idea about him - I am talking about a merely curious person. I am asking this because I remember taking a number of people to introductory programmes and then being bemused by their reaction to him - they generally didn't particularly take a liking to him. Two friends came away saying they were most unimpressed. Another friend asked him a question during a question and answer session and was dissatisfied with the answer he gave her. And another friend didn't like the way he 'shouted' and appeared to 'patronise' the audience. They all came away pretty turned off and with no desire to repeat the experience or take it any further. In contrast to this, a number of other friends who had already listened to a large amount of satsang, liked what they saw and mostly did wish to pursue things further. At the time I rationalised this by telling myself that the first group just 'weren't ready' or 'weren't open enough'. However, another explanation and one that occurs to me now, is that one's appreciation of the live experience of Maharaji is very much coloured by the ideas one already has about him. It does seem odd to me that someone of, according to premies, so much wisdom and understanding of life etc should be so unimpressive to the 'lay' person. What does anyone else think? And has anyone else noticed the same phenomenon? Love, Livia

Subject: Re: The first time I saw your face From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 14:48:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My wife's mother accompanied us to a program with M at Avery Fisher Hall in New York. Quite the venue. Somehow we were given seats in the first few rows. Her most exciting moment was being ushered to her seat by Michael Nouri - now that really impressed her. Later we asked The Question 'So what did you think?' Her wise reply was: 'He's just like Billy Graham.' LOL Another time my parents visited me during a Kissimmee program. I proudly walked them through the encampment whereupon they were panhandled by a premie. Then M arrived in his Jeep Wagoneer to a hearty round of Bhole Shri's. Much later they told me: 'With all the problems at Jonestown, when we saw that scene we were very worried.' Gotta trust those first impressions. Another time Sondra Ray, a spiritual seminar leader, came to see M in Miami. Her response was well, er cosmic man. She said: 'As soon as he walked out my Third Eye just opened right up.' I'd say a little wish fulfillment was going on there.

Subject: Re: The first time I saw your face From: Marshall To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 10:59:45 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Livia. I was born in 1967 to two young idealistic hippie style parents. They divorced when I was 3 or 4 years old. My father got into gmj and then managed to get my mother into it too. Then my father got a new 'old lady' and got her into gmj too. Meanwhile my mom went through 3 consecutive relationships with local premies, eventually remarrying a devoted lifer premie. I myself was 'given' knowledge at age 7! Really, how stupid. Anyway the point I am making and have made before is that I was dragged along into the gmj cult, basically with no choice. Unlike Abi and some other young premies I've heard from, I thought it was weird and didn't really like it from the start. When I got old enough (10-12) to form my own opinions I openly denounced and ridiculed the whole stupid thing, especially the fat, greedy guru, for the next several years until I gave up throwing pearls before swine, to co-opt one of the premies own sayings. I was always embarrased and shamed by my parents involvement in what I saw as a kooky 70's hippie cult that was totally at odds with my early 80's punk aesthetics. When I was dragged along to Houston. Miami, Kissimee, etc. I hated it. I still remember the idiot looks everyone had on their faces as they listened raptly to rawats rambling, incoherent, insulting barrages. I felt genuine fear and hatred that so much delusion was taking place with my parents part and parcel of the whole enchilada. I still can't believe anyone could be foolish enough to fall for gmj or any of the other 100 or so avatars spread round the world. I'm not sure how this all ties into this thread, I think I went off the track, oh well, whatever. Cheers, Marshall

Subject: Marshall - your journey From: Marianne To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 12:30:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marshall. I am always struck by how your posts cut right through the bullshit. I think the experiences of kids in the cult, who were dragged through it by their parents, are especially enlightening. I really wish you'd take the time to write your journey because I think it would be a great addition to EPO. Marianne

Subject: That post's good for starters [nt] From: PatC To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 12:40:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Blimey ,Marshall... From: Livia To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 11:39:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marshall, I just read your account and am somewhat reeling. Had no idea you'd been through all that and that it was as bad as that for you... Was there ever a time when you had a good time with it? It's awful that you were coerced into receiving K when it was still being given to children because I do recall M stopping that at some point. And congratulations to you for being able to detach from and see through all the brainwashing and finally make a new life for yourself, as I hope you've been able to do. Love to you, Livia XX

Subject: Blimey indeed From: Disculta To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 13:20:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ditto what Livia said, Marshall dude! Amazing what you went through! You came out of it rather articulate, I must say. I especially loved this description of MJ's holy company of truth: 'rawats rambling, incoherent, insulting barrages' Yes, I did bring people to see MJ. My mother came to the Royal Albert Hall with me one time. She wasn't very impressed, but of course I took it to be because she had already formed beliefs about him (negative) in accordance with the theory stated above. Someone I sort of revered when I was half-exiting but still 'proud' of MJ came to see him at the Miami Convention Center in 1984 and I remember suddenly seeing him through her eyes. Jeezus, it was embarrassing. She was into spiritual stuff, and I realized as he was speaking that he clearly wasn't. love ktd

Subject: From the cult's First Class email From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 18:58:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Monday, 27 May 2002 12:09:PM Pac Participation Info From: Linda Pascotto - US Subject: Info re:TPRF To: Pac Participation Info Hello again. Hope everyone is doing well looking forward to the next events, I’m sure! I’m writing to you now as a board member of The Prem Rawat Foundation. I’m sure most of you have seen the beautiful website @ tprf.org and are taking advantage of ordering the available Leaders magazine and reprints, as well as creating your own individual booklets from Maharaji’s discourses. Many of you have expressed a desire to help The Prem Rawat Foundation. Here are a couple of ways your assistance can make a significant difference. 1. Financial support to TPRF will allow the required funding to produce the variety of materials Maharaji intends to create. 2. Networking with friends and co-workers (even those without Self-Knowledge) is invaluable to help find skilled personnel in many areas. Some examples of help that will be needed in the (very near) future: 1.Experienced translators for a wide variety of languages, including some in which Maharaji’s message has not yet been translated, e.g., Arabic 2. Professional expertise in all areas of communication, e.g., journalism, creative writing, editing, publishing, film, video, photography and other related fields 3.Graphic artists/designers It would be wonderful if we could be proactive to find the financial support and skills that are needed. Since there are far fewer people on First Class than previously, please pass along this information to whomever you think will be interested. Hope to see you soon! Warm regards, Linda Pascotto

Subject: Same old, same old From: Happie (but irate) Frenchie To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 11:29:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, Pat I'm glad to see yu weren't away too long from this forum ! Anyway, nothing in Premrawatdom ever changes, does it ? Same rethoric, same calls for capital, freebie work by experts in their field... It is sickening ! Enough already ! Irate Frenchie

Subject: Re: From the cult's First Class email From: Bolly Shri To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 07:27:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that, I am right now offering my services as a translator of Bullshit into English. How wonder full to have this opportunity. LOL Bolly

Subject: Re: From the cult's First Class email From: Thorin To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 06:41:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The 'First Class' post from Linda emphasis the focus is now on The Prem Rawat Foundation and increasingly away from Elan Vital. Something really stinks here. Increasingly I feel that the emergence of TPRF is connected with the new policy statement re sexual harassment that Elan Vital that has put up. I had a look at some of the Elan Vital sites and see all of them (except Duo in India) now carry the sexual harassment policy notice. However nowhere on the TPRF or Maharaji.net sites is this new policy statement made. (Maybe I missed them.) I wonder if this is to do with the fact that these sites are so closely linked directly with Maharaji? Elan Vital however, it could be argued, was simply an organisation created by his followers and was not directly sponsored by Maharaji. I think that Maharaji (after taking legal advice) is simply cutting his losses. There seems to be a recognition that the past problems can no longer be 'wished' away, as he has tried to do for years, rather he now seems to be placing a ring-fence around the problem and walking away from it. It is like building fire breaks. In order to mitigate a far worse firestorm, simply burn away some of the good stuff and, hopefully, when and if the storm begins to engulf the existing edifice the new creations will survive. By having Elan Vital alone making the policy statement Maharaji can simply state that it was his followers all along that created the mess and that they have to sort it out. He attempts to be seen as blameless. I think it is entirely plausible that Maharaji (and his advisors) consider that it is highly likely that over the coming years there will be more and more people wanting restitution for damages that have been caused. Also, they probably figure that such claims will arise from other causes in addition to damages caused by sexual harassment. For example the wholesale giving away of trust funds, the medical damages caused by the Deca project, the career impairment caused by living in ashrams, the suicides - the list goes on and on. This is all pure speculation of course, I have no inside knowledge as to the true motives, and my speculation is based on what I see only. It is akin to the Catholic Church (and remember in the USA Elan Vital is a church) forming a new organisation for the faithful where new funding is out of the reach of potential claimants. If the Catholic Church were to do this it would be viewed wholeheartedly as being deeply cynical and simply a ploy of putting resources beyond legal reach. I can't see the Catholic Church ever doing this as some ethical standards still exist within that church. Obviously I may be totally wrong about the motives of Elan Vital and Maharaji. This, after all, is only an opinion. Perhaps there are different reasons for the revisionism we have seen lately and that Elan Vital/Maharaji have set aside a pool of funds that will be sufficient to meet all potential future liabilities. Hey maybe some bright and alert PAM had the foresight of buying an insurance policy for such risks? Please someone tell me that I am wrong in my opinions and that the Elan Vital/Maharaji motives are benign in all respects. A direct post from Linda Pascotto would be helpful. Warmly, Thorin

Subject: tell me that I am wrong in my opinions From: PatC To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 10:56:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No. Why should I? Your opinions were very plausible. Sorry.

Subject: Re: tell me that I am wrong in my opinions From: Thorin To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 14:12:06 (PDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: Thanks Pat What pisses me off immensely is that even if Elan Vital acknowledges wrongdoing in particular cases they can simply turn around and say there ain't any cash in the kitty to pay. It will all have gone, especially as time progresses. What I think should happen is that the Board of TPRF (which includes Linda, who I hear is an honourable person) should be composed of several more people, some of which are ex followers of Maharaji and some that have nothing to do with ever having receiving Knowledge - dispassionate citizens if you like. The TPR Foundation should be endowed with, say, $35 million (a fraction of M's wealth), which would be used for past restitutions as well as future good works. The Board of TPR Foundation should make decisions of what resources are spent and on what. I think that the TPR Foundation should only gain its tax exempt credentials on this basis. To gain its tax exempt status in any other way makes mockery of fair play. Just a naive thought. I bet the 'other' foundations (e.g. Bill Gates ....) have a proper democratic process. Thorin

Subject: Thorin,a interesting idea for TPRF From: la-ex To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 15:19:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why not write up your proposal, and snd it to pay pal and epo...have it stand on the epo homepage as a challenge to pay pal to 'do the right thing'.....his 'no response' response would speak volumes in and of itself..

Subject: Re: Thorin,a interesting idea for TPRF From: Thorin To: la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 05:31:03 (PDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: Wow la-ex, your post is now way out of the live posts, it was only by chance while chewing over this sandwich I have in my hand. Yes indeed I have thought of doing exactly what you suggest but not so sure where it would progress beyond a 'mark in the sand' Lets go offline on this - email as above Thorin

Subject: Re: From the cult's First Class email From: Bolly Shri To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 07:33:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin I'm not absolutely certain on the details but I believe all employers are obliged to have a policy on sexual harrasment. The place to check this is employment law via Hansard or similar. I'll try and get around to it but parliamentary publications are really tedious and one has to be in the right frame of mind to plough through them. LOL Bolly

Subject: My 2 cents From: Jean-Michel To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 02:19:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Networking with friends and co-workers (even those without Self-Knowledge) is invaluable to help find skilled personnel in many areas. Looks like propogation/recruitment is now on tried on the Internet. Word of mouth never worked, I guess Internet will never work either. Professional expertise in all areas of communication, e.g., journalism, creative writing, editing, publishing, film, video, photography and other related fields All gone ? What happened ???? Leave propogation to non premies ? What a joke ! Give us money, we'll hire people (like Leaders magazine) to do it for you, as you're unable to do it, in spite of 30 years of 'learning' the 'teachings' ..... creating your own individual booklets from Maharaji’s discourses. That's pathetic !!!! Why don't they encourage them to read EPO ? The best of Prem's teaching is already there !! The ship is sinking.

Subject: Here's another 2 cents, JM From: la-ex To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 10:02:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe we should borrow a page from their playbook.....instructions of how to make a 'propagation' handbook from the EPO site, with favorite essays to include...would make good late night reading for any aspirant, I'm sure....would also be interesting to see premies reactions to some of the 'golden oldy' satsangs of yesteryear...

Subject: Re: proactive From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 02:05:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OMG! they have started to use the 'P' word... ((((( shiver )))))

Subject: Why far fewer first class participants? From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 23:19:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Since there are far fewer people on First Class than previously, please pass along this information to whomever you think will be interested. Why is this? Notice she doesn't simply say fewer, but far fewer. I can think several possible reasons:- 1. They have deliberately reduced the number of participants to make it more exclusive. 2. They have deliberately reduced the number of participants to improve security and prevent leaks to the ex-premie community. 3. Participants have excluded themselves due to other demands on their time. 4. Participants have excluded themselves due to renouncing Maharaji as their teacher. If the correct answer is 2, then this thread proves the exercise was unsuccessful. What is the official explanation, I wonder? What is interesting is the matter of fact way she says it, so there must be an official explanation. Anyone know? John.

Subject: Another reason From: Richard To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 08:39:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 5. They now charge a monthly fee to have the priveledge of participating in First Class. I heard this from someone who was receiving FC but didn't want to shell out the $ to keep getting it. This person is also a #4.

Subject: Re: Another reason From: Moll of Mole To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 12:21:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, this is true , you now have to pay a fee to stay on First Class.

Subject: Re: Why far fewer first class participants? From: Moll of Mole To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 03:45:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is the reason 2. They have deliberately reduced the number of participants to improve security and prevent leaks to the ex-premie community.

Subject: Thanks, Moll From: JHB To: Moll of Mole Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 03:51:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Looks like they'll have to reduce the circulation even more. Do you think Prem can be trusted not to leak stuff here? John.

Subject: This part is very revealing From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 19:27:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some examples of help that will be needed in the (very near) future: 2. Professional expertise in all areas of communication, e.g., journalism, creative writing, editing, publishing, film, video, photography and other related fields 3.Graphic artists/designers What has happened to all of the loyal and dedicated people who were previously 'employed' by Visions and Dunrite? Told to get 'outside jobs' to create 'participation opportunities' for the new creative types, including 'even those without Self-Knowledge'? My best wishes go out to those who were down-sized by the make-over from EV-Visions-Dunrite to TPRF. I've been there, done that, designed and then bought the T-shirt.

Subject: Re: This part is very revealing From: Pat W To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 04:06:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Again Richard..so true. I hope you don't mind but I am sending this to a premie I know who is booked for a 'training' soon. I am including the message from Linda and your comments. Dear.... Someone posted this 'First Class' message from Linda Pascotto on the Internet. Richard Rogers' reply resonated with me. Richard used to be heavily involved with Divine Publications or something in the USA etc. He was a longstanding PAM (Premie around Maharaji) as far as I can see, and appears in pictures alongside Maharaji during the Seventies. Somebody else's comment was 'Talk about re-cycling people'. I think the sad and kind of offensive thing is that we have seen with each re-shuffle of M's image and the attendant reshuffling and dismissal of various people doing different services -that those people who offered all their time and services to help Maharji are very unceremoniously put out to pasture. There's always this call for more 'skilled personnel in many areas' but what happened to all the people who used to do all this stuff. In the case of people like .... and ..... - and many others - you could say they just got burned out and were 'put out to pasture '- but why does it have to be like this? In any healthy- functional organisation those people who work for it are not neccesarily so used and spat out as it were. There seems to be a pattern that premies are milked of their skills and then rather callously dismissed and forgotten, rather than treated with care. All this seems again to point towards Maharaji being really so consumed with his agenda that he doesn't mind walking over peoples feelings. This could also be said to apply to the ashram premies who gave up everything and yet are offered no explanation or care when M decided they were simply a financial liability -as many witnesses have reported was the sole reason he closed them. I think it is very telling that despite Maharaji 'marching on' and being concerned always with impressing a new audience, that behind him there is this trail of people with misgivings whom he really doesn't care to talk to or help come to terms with what he was on about during their 'time'. They seem for all the world to be kind of dead assets to him. I thought that I'd share this with you this because it seems that it may in some way be relevant to the 'training session' you are attending shortly. Do these guys want feedback from old premies or not? Does anyone care that the 'revisionism' that apparently goes on in these trainings is offensive to many who gave up their entire youths to OBEY and serve M only now to be told they were 'getting in Maharaji's way' etc. Love Patrick

Subject: Me too, Patrick... From: Cynthia To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 10:11:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Patrick, You can feel free to use my name if you want in corresponding with this premie. I was a Deca throw-away. Like Richard, I never considered myself a PAM, but I did work closely with Maharaji for a year at DECA and when I burnt out, both physically and emotionally, I was kicked out. I was put out to pasture by being transferred to another ashram when I was supposed to rest and get well. Within four months I was forced to seek employment. I had more income earning potential than the other sisters, and the community coordinator and initiators who discussed me knew that. I trust your judgment and have no fear of the cult, whatever it's name is now;) So much for shelter! Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Me too, Patrick... From: Pat W To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 11:30:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Cynthia, I will pass on your comments for sure. Anyone else want to add some more??

Subject: Sure Patrick From: Richard To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 08:01:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I really feel compassion for anyone who 'gave their all' only to be swept away in a restructuring. These dedicated people are left to flounder while The Prem gets credit for doing away with those terrible unsychronized organizations that get in his way. Until the next time it happens and people realize they were just dust at the feet after all. BTW: if I ever need a ghost writer for my memoirs, you da man. Even though I designed publications for 7 years and had some close encounters of the Satguru kind, I've never thought of myself as a PAM. As far as sharing my observations, go for it. I recently shared the thread on loss that was begun by Anth with several premie friends. They were amazed at the beauty and compassion and it got them to revising their opinion of all us 'Winey Loosers who just never got it'.

Subject: Re: This part is very revealing From: Joy To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 01:24:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard and Patrick. Perhaps I'm out of sync and out of the loop, but what's Dunrite? Is this something Divine Light Mission/Elan Vital eventually became? (Oh, and let us not forget SHIP, Shri Hans International Productions, of which we were a part.) It sounds like someone's megalomaniac power trip to me. (e.g. everything must be 'done right' to my orders and specifications) I guess TPRF is even more 'top down' sounding, no room for anyone else's ideas or opinions there, that's for sure.

Subject: Re: This part is very revealing From: Disculta To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 06:44:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just popping in to say a quick hello to you Joy! E-mail me! And I agree with Richard and PatW that Prem's discarding of used people is absolutely Dunwrong! I went through it with the closing of IHQ in 1976 and observed the whole thing again as a DECA volunteer. Quite disgusting. Human rights violations in fact. love ktd

Subject: Dunrite From: JHB To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 03:49:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dunrite has been around for a while and is the video/media company that is, I believe, partly or wholly owned by Maharaji's offspring. Its uses include syphoning money legally from Elan Vital by charging exorbitantly for the video production from programs. John.

Subject: Re: Dunrite From: Try This To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 08:02:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Quite the professional sounding company Dunrite www.dunritegroup.com/homep.htm

Subject: Re: Dunrite From: Blondie To: Try This Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 12:52:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A neat bunch, their proud of their relationship with Andersen Consulting - evidence shredders extrordinaire. Practically every other Business on the planet removed any reference to Andersen months ago.

Subject: Talk about recycling people... [nt] From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 20:21:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: A Cult-Spotter’s Guide #1: ‘Teachings’ From: Nigel To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 15:18:10 (PDT) Email Address: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: For the last four years, for my sins, I have been 'teaching' university students - an activity which involves the sharing of facts, theories, arguments, ideas, questions, speculations, hypotheses, advice, instruction and guidance. One form of information exchange I never deal in, however, is the ‘teaching’. Participle as noun. ‘Teachings’ are the exclusive province of personality cults, ‘spiritual’ groups and Deputy Dog and have sweet FA to do with education or learning. I just ran a Google search for the word ‘teachings’. The first ten results thrown up were: - Spiritual Teachings... - Metista: Spirituality And Shamanism For American Mutts... - Tendai Lotus Teachings- Welcome... - Teachings Of The Buddha... - Dharma Teachings... - Teachings of Swami Sivananda... - SpiritWeb: Spirit Teachings... - The Teachings of Silvanus... - Teachings of Bodhidharma... - The Michael Teachings -- Resources, Channeling, and Spiritual ... A pattern, you might say, seems to be emerging… But what is a ‘teaching’, anyway? Try this, from ‘Krishna Consciousness: The 'Science' of Self-Realisation’: > In April 1973, during a long morning walk at Venice Beach, in Los Angeles, Srila Prabhupada [founder of the International Society for KRSNA Consciousness] turned to the subject of modern science and scientists. With philosophical rigour, profound common-sense, and disarming frankness, he exposed the narrow-mindedness and illogic behind the scientists' commonly accepted theories about the origin of life. [!!!!????....] Dr Singh: Of course, so much is being written about Darwin's theory. In any library there are hundreds of books on his theories. Srila Prabhupada: Do they accept or reject them? Dr Singh: Generally they accept him, but there are some who are very critical. Srila Prabhupada: Darwin speaks about the evolution of the species of life, but he has no real information about spiritual evolution. He knows nothing about the progress of the spirit soul from lower forms of life to higher forms. He claims that man has evolved from monkeys, but we can see that the monkey is not extinct. If the monkey is the immediate forefather of man, why is the monkey still existing? Dr Singh: Darwin says that the species are not created independently but are descended from another. Srila Prabhupada: If there is no question of independence, how can he abruptly begin with a certain species? He must explain how the original species came into existence. ... Dr Singh: Weren't all the varieties of animals existing from the beginning? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Simultaneous creation is verified by the Bhagavad Gita. ... Mike Robinson [BBC interviewer]: Can you tell me what you believe - what the philosophy of the Hare Krsna movement is? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna Consciousness is not a question of belief; it is a science. > And so it goes on – (the two short planks don’t even get a reference..) But the idea that Krsna Consciousness is not a question of belief; but it is a science is a prima facie ‘teaching’. As are all the preceding batty statements made by the guru. For any public declaration, no matter how daft, to become a ’teaching’ it merely needs to be uttered by an authoritative, or authoritarian voice – that of someone whose words have been accorded a special status by a consensus of two or more would-be followers. In this respect, with all 'teachings', the source is more important than the content.. If you or I were to go around informing people that ‘the sky is blue’, this would be a simple statement of fact. When a great soul utters those same words, we have a ‘teaching’, possibly a profound one. When Mr Prem Pal Singh Rawat of Prem Nagar and Malibu, (aka. 'Guru Maharaj ji') declares that 'seeds are dead', (but eggs are not) they might as well be just that, for all the devotee cares. He could with equal confidence declare that the sky is green. Or if I say: ‘stay near the rich man’s door, and accept his blows. He may be pleased one day and give you his favour’... .. this would be merely a piece of useful advice on my part. When the same words are spoken by a certain Shri Hans Ji Maharaj of this parish, we have another ‘teaching’. And 'teachings' deserve and demand deference. You could almost define a 'teaching' as 'whatever it is your guru happens to say next'... So although a ’teaching’ might involve the sharing of facts, theories, arguments, ideas, questions, speculations, hypotheses, advice, instruction, guidance or gobblegook, none of these elements, in themselves or in combination, comprise a 'teaching'. (And few, if any, of those terms are ever employed in a cult environment, anyway. 'Teaching' is always a safer and more certain descriptor for a guru's thought-bubbles) What is required is the willing suspension of disbelief when your spirit guide holds forth. And ‘teachings’ are the exclusive property of the cult leader. They are not formulated via discussion, democratic process or committee. Rather, they are handed down, small, but always perfectly formed, by the Wise One. They may later be revised, a bit different, but still perfectly formed, often without warning, but only by the Wise One. And when the Wise One's pronouncements are repeated by others within the personality cult, they remain the Wise One's ’teachings’ rather than mere beliefs or ideas of the Wise One which others happen to share. In this respect, ‘teachings’ are the antithesis of scientific knowledge - the latter becoming public property (ie. everybody’s and nobody’s) as soon as a theory or idea has been verified and accepted - whatever its source. All-comers may then pile in with their own research and ideas and will develop that theory further. A collective, rather than autocratic enterprise, and one which serves humanity as a whole. Not so with 'teachings'; 'teachings' are top-down, and ever more shall be - oh! ‘Teachings’ also contain hidden depths of meaning. If you or I were to declare that ‘happiness is an inner experience’, we would mean all that those words imply - but no more. But when a living saint breathes life into the same phrase by way of a ’teaching’, he/she reveals a quality of insight that goes ‘beyond words’. And so whenever the rival schools of guruland appear to share a ‘teaching’ (as with the above quote), only one’s own guru holds the copyright on the meaning behind the words – the rival gurus being, for the most part, upstarts and pretenders - hidebound, ritualistic and dogmatic, lacking that essential 'understanding', or whatever. How do you know that? - Well you don't really know that, but you sort of just do know that, you know..? That is not to say one cannot respect the 'teachings' of other spiritual guides. Of course you can - er, if you really must. Some new-age freelancers rumble about like loose cannon, constructing for themselves hybrid philosophies by cherry-picking the bits they like from any number of teacher's 'teachings'. But - crucially - none of those teachers or 'teachings' will have encouraged them to do that: ie. to look to the 'teachings' of others for complementary sources of enlightenment . Quite the opposite, in fact. Babaji does not endorse, nor even acknowledge the existence of Andrew Cohen, and vice-versa. 'Teachings' were never intended for maverick students. Which brings me neatly to the next point for the cult-spotter: teachings are self-referential.. They create an enclosed universe of concept and jargon which will not boldy go beyond its own final frontiers for inspiration, information or confirmation. I have only mentioned spiritual cults up until now, but this present example would apply to any number of fringe medicines, crank diets and psychotherapies. It is the supreme definition of a cult, be it Freudian, Breatharian or Aetherian, that its 'teachings' will establish a standalone frame of reference: a Jonestown or Waco of the mind. With their compounds out in the intellectual desert, happily isolated from science and common sense, 'teachings' will flourish and grow - running riot like mutant brambles, never challenged, questioned or cut back to manageable size. (Or, better still, rooted out and burned..) Because 'teachings' are non-negotiable. They are to be accepted and/or followed. In their frequently colourful and idiosyncratic ways, 'teachings' will incorporate a natural philosophy (ie. how the world is) with a moral philosophy (how we should live in that world). With the former, the guru's thought-waves are solemnly channelised, recorded and passed on as if irrefutable 'fact', be they banal truism or egregious bullshit. This kind of 'teaching' is to be accepted rather than discussed or queried. The latter form of 'teaching' involves advice and instruction on how we should go about the daily business of living our lives, cooking our food, going to the toilet and getting ourselves up to heaven in time. Perhaps 'commandment' might be a more fitting term than 'advice', here, since to decline that advice is perceived as a rejection of the 'teachings' as a whole. Follow, or be damned. Because 'teachings', finally, are an all or nothing proposal. To accept but one of a guru's 'teachings' is, de facto, to accept the lot. You might as well, since you have already bought in and compromised your integrity. The acceptance of, or adherence to a 'teaching' is not about validating or agreeing with a particular idea, philosophy or sentiment. It is, rather, a function of accepting the authority of the teacher rather than evaluating his words. To reject out loud just one of your guru's 'teachings' will more than likely lead to your own rejection by, and possible ejection from, the 'company of truth'. Oh yes - I nearly forgot - 'teachings' are about the truth, and don't you forget it. If somebody - anybody - tells you they follow the 'teachings' of 'x', 'y', or 'z', you are onto a pretty safe bet that they are in a cult. I prefer teaching.

Subject: Nigel, I don't respond to your posts anymore From: PatC To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 15:43:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Because I know you just want to pick a fight wiht someone and I can never find anything in your posts to argue with. Here are the 16 Reasons Why God Never Received Tenure at the University 1 He had only one major publication 2 And it was in Hebrew 3 And it had no references 4 And it was not published in a refereed journal 5 And some even doubted that He wrote it Himself 6 It may be true that He created the world, but what has He done since then? 7 His cooperative efforts have been quite limited 8 The scientific community has had a very rough time trying to replicate His results 9 He never applied to the Ethics Board for permission to use human subjects. 10 When one experiment went awry, He tried to cover it up by drowning the subjects. 11 When subjects did not behave as predicted, He often punished them, or just deleted them from the sample. 12 He rarely came to class: He just told students to read the book 13 He has his son teach the class. 14 He expelled His first two students for learning too much. 15 Although there were only ten requirements, most students failed His tests. 16 His office hours were infrequent, and usually held on a mountain top.

Subject: i thought you were gone forever, Pat... From: Nigel To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 16:55:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe you are immortal, after all :) Word of advice: about two or three years back I became somewhat embarrased about the number of times I said I was quitting the forum forever, or for a few weeks. So I did a new year's resolution post to quit quitting the forum forever. So far, so good. I highly recommend it. Bests to you, Andy and Chuck - feeling hungry right now, thanks to emotional disturbance caused by ex-ex-Moley husband person. Gonna fry up some swordfish in a minute (before shagging Moley senseless). Got some very nice red wine too. Actually, Moley's on the phone to the lovely Marianne as I type this post. I remember a while back John K (former regular ex here) saying that the forum was 'a community of sorts, and you have to value community wherever you happen to find it'. I agree. The friendship and supportive communications Moles and I have received today from many here has been amazing. I never knew such empathy and closeness in the cult days, that's for sure. And having met in real life over two dozen of you sad 'loosers', I can only wonder whether the presence of wank-artists like Rawat on this planet might (inadvertantly) make for closer relationships between former followers than they might have had, had they never signed up. Probably (no, definitely) not - it's just a matter of getter older, wiser and valuing stuff that actually matters, I reckon. And nobody needs a cult for any purpose.

Subject: Forever? From: PatC To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 17:41:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not forever. I will have to stop posting (but just reading and doing troll patrol) for a few months as hopefully I will be busy with the good publicity we have recently had. The problem with posting is that this joint is, as you say, a lot like a community and you could spend all day socializing. Not posting is like being a wallflower. I need to be a wallflower for a few months but definitely not a party-pooper. This place is a great experiment in global community. Some of the most adventurous, altruistic and original people joined the cult and then left it. The remaining premies seem to be ..... well - not very brave or pioneering, in fact quite frightened and defensive.

Subject: Happy hols then, but... From: Nigel To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 18:04:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Somehow I don't believe you will actually take that break, however necessary it feels :) (And I, for one, hope you don't) Gotta go - Moley got me some new underwear today from the Oxfam shop...

Subject: FA - please delete thsi post From: Nigel To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 18:00:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It has fuck all to say about anything, and I would not wish the good name of the forum to be forever tarnished by my mishandling of a computer keyboard. (for that is what has seemingly happened - this is just an edit of a formerly blank post). Ta.

Subject: Ignore him Pat - cock teaser From: Moley To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 18:15:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Need I say more/ (Oh but what a cock!)

Subject: Nigel and Moley go down in history From: PatC To: Moley Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 18:39:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One day your public shagging on this forum will be immortalised by CAC. The one big advantage of letting it all hang out (like Moley's knickers on F7 washing line) is that you can never be blackmailed coz you've got nothing to hide. Well, some of us might as well have a webcam linked to the forum. :C)

Subject: Re: Nigel and Moley go down in history From: Moley To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 19:22:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: True, true and true. And believe me if we had a digital camera, we'd use it ;)

Subject: I didn't mean ''go down'' like that! [nt] From: PatC To: Moley Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 19:34:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Brilliant teaching, Nigel! From: Richard To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 11:37:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice analysis. 'Teaching' is another word that takes on heaviosity in order to give credence to a particular set of beliefs. It's not just an opinion, it's a genuine Teaching so it must be real. Thanks for the teaching. I feel grateful so where do I send may appreciation?

Subject: Bravo, brilliant analysis (nt) From: Happie Frenchie To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 11:22:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Congratulations once again.. From: PJ To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 04:08:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: on drawing me away once more from my work to read yet another of your endless (usually very entertaining) posts. Over the last few months my humdrum existence has been lightened for hours daily by the latest offerings from regulars like Jim Heller, Pat Conlon and yourself. Now I can't resist raising a couple of points which spring to mind. The first, quite simply, is that, while you are denouncing 'teachings', i.e. enclosed, self-referencing volumes of instruction, do not your own theses also really form one? Atheism, Darwinism, science.. Have you not, on abandoning the boat of late 20th century New Religion merely leapt back one hundred percent into the closed (and often miserable) scientific paradigm which preceded it (actually precipitated it all)? The amazing thing in your world of endless theorizing and abstraction is that quite literally nothing and no one else, however harmless, and perhaps fun, gets any look in whatsoever. ‘Fringe medicines, crank diets and psychotherapies’ are linked with (boxed into an example which includes) Jonestown and Waco. They should preferably be 'rooted out and burned..' Can you please explain why, for heaven’s sake, homeopathy, acupuncture, reiki, aromatherapy deserve this full Torquemada treatment? If you don’t like them, just leave alone. They keep a few people happy, and aren’t exactly lethal. This attitude bears an uncanny resemblance to some of the statements of Shri Hans quoted by another poster below (spiritual or atheist, it’s the similar mind-set which is striking). Also, IMHO, to a witchfinder.

Subject: Thanks, everyone - and to PJ.. From: Nigel To: PJ Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 05:41:33 (PDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: I appreciate any kind of feedback when I do a long post and am glad most of it has been positive (as yours has been, in part, PJ). However, you have asked me some questions so I'll do my best to answer them. Now I can't resist raising a couple of points which spring to mind. The first, quite simply, is that, while you are denouncing 'teachings', i.e. enclosed, self-referencing volumes of instruction, do not your own theses also really form one? Atheism, Darwinism, science.. No, of course not. That's exactly the point I was making when I said science was the antithesis of 'teachings'. Science, for me, is (usually) honest about the basis for the beliefs it incorporates, and these are evidence-based and its methodology and findings are open to, and inclusive of anyone with the basic skills to carry out research or put forward a hypothesis. An important distinction, I think. There are no scientific gurus (even Darwin) whose theories might not crumble if the right kind of contradictory evidence emerged. (I don't see this as likely to happen, though certain aspects of his original draft of evolutionary have been revised or removed, eg. his belief that 'Lamarkian' inheritance might also occur in addition to Natural Selection. He had, at that time, no way of knowing either way. Post-Mendel and post DNA it is clear now that Lamarkism is a non-starter. But such is the way science progresses.) As for atheism, how can non-adherence to any way of thinking comprise a teaching or belief system? I don't believe in fairies or unicorns either, but that, for me is simply a sensible default position. certainly not a closed-system And those non-beliefs would be open to revision if the right kind of evidence for the existence of fairies or unicorns showed up. Have you not, on abandoning the boat of late 20th century New Religion merely leapt back one hundred percent into the closed (and often miserable) scientific paradigm which preceded it (actually precipitated it all)? I certainly hope so. I don't find science to be either miserable or closed. The amazing thing in your world of endless theorizing and abstraction is that quite literally nothing and no one else, however harmless, and perhaps fun, gets any look in whatsoever. I actually find it enormous fun researching and writing about paranormal and irrational belief systems. I don't know what you mean, precisely, about 'nothing and nobody getting a look in'. If you mean I should be prepared to accept as valid ideas and systems which are, at best, merely unfounded beliefs and, at worst, dangerously manipulative cults, then, no - they don't get a look in. Why should they? But I'm happy to examine their 'teachings' and then comment on them (as I have here). Others present seem to be glad that I have - and so do you. What's the problem? ‘Fringe medicines, crank diets and psychotherapies’ are linked with (boxed into an example which includes) Jonestown and Waco. They should preferably be 'rooted out and burned..' Read me carefully and you will see I was talking figuratively - 'a Jonestown or Waco of the mind', ie. a hermetically-sealed off belief system flourishing in its remote compound. That's all. I was not remotely comparing Freud with Jim Jones, or whatever. Can you please explain why, for heaven’s sake, homeopathy, acupuncture, reiki, aromatherapy deserve this full Torquemada treatment? I gladly could and would like to, but I'm not sure I have time right now. Maybe I'll do it on the Symposium in due course. If you don’t like them, just leave alone. They keep a few people happy, and aren’t exactly lethal. No, perhaps not, but all of them depend on the exploitation of gullible minds. Sorry, but that's how I see it. This attitude bears an uncanny resemblance to some of the statements of Shri Hans quoted by another poster below (spiritual or atheist, it’s the similar mind-set which is striking). Also, IMHO, to a witchfinder. Don't be ridiculous. What do any of these fringe/spiritual practices have to fear from anything I have to say about them? If they cannot stand up to a bit of objective skeptical scrutiny then heaven help the lot of them. Cheers, Nige

Subject: Thanks for the reply... From: PJ To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 08:19:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the reply, Nigel. I don't think you've really answered the points. But I think you've shown the readiness to discuss, which I've felt has been absent from your stuff for a while. You've got a good take on things which shouldn't become besmirched by doctrine, which seems to me has happened too much recently. I'll prepare a reply, but it may take a couple of days, owing to work. I'll look forward to talking more, however. Very best wishes. PJ

Subject: Let me through, I’m a Reiki healer..! From: Nigel To: PJ Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 14:09:47 (PDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: (sorry - couldn't resist - I have been saving that one up for the right moment..) Thanks to you too, PJ, and best wishes etc. I have no problem with discussing any of this stuff. Trouble is, people so rarely challenge the things I post (apart from inarticulate trollsters) that the opportunity almost never arises. I like it when it does. If you don’t mind, PJ, I’d like to ask you a few questions, now that I’ve done my best to answer yours… 1 - Suppose I were to start a small, private consultancy, calling myself an ‘acupuncturist’, then invented an appropriate-looking therapy which involved sticking in needles at random body locations (albeit being careful to do no physical damage), and charged the regular, some would say extortionate, fees… Would you consider my practice to be ‘harmless fun’? 2 - Suppose I were to start a small, private consultancy, calling myself a ‘Reiki healer’, then invented an appropriate-looking therapy which involved sweeping my hands gracefully around random body locations (albeit being careful to cause no psychological damage), and charged the regular, some would say extortionate, fees.. Would you consider my practice to be ‘harmless fun’? 3 - Suppose I were to start a small, private consultancy, calling myself a ‘homeopath’, then invented an appropriate-looking therapy which involved prescribing my own patent, overpriced sugar pills - a bit of playful pendulum-swinging, perhaps. On top of the regular, some would say extortionate, fees.. Would you consider my practice to be ‘harmless fun’? These are not trick questions – and they go right to the heart of the reasons for my supposed ‘Torquemada’ technique (somewhat OTT characterisation there, methinks). If you could answer these questions when doing your considered reply we might have shared terms of reference for a fruitful discussion. I hope so… Best, Nige

Subject: Holy COW! Did I ever laugh at that one!!!! From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 17:13:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nigel, That was so funny I just KNEW I shouldn't spoil it by reading your post. Great line. I'll use it as soon as I get a chance. I don't know if this helps or hurts ( a bit of both, I figure) but ... Help! Help! Is there a doctor in the house??! My husband's energy is out of alignment! Quick, please, let me through! I'm a Reiki healer .... HO HO HOOOOOO!!!

Subject: Ditto Jim LOL- Imagine the cartoon! [nt] From: Moley To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 17:53:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: No - imagine the casualty ward... From: Nigel To: Moley Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 18:28:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Blood everywhere etc...

Subject: Yeh - sorry I can only do distance From: Moley To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 18:32:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: healing. I haven't done my Reiki Master course yet (only 250 dollars for a weekend course). So stem your own blood flow in the meantime.

Subject: Hemostat, nurse! ASAP! From: PatC To: Moley Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 18:43:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''Sorry, doctor. I can't find a hemostat but I've studied aromatherapy. Would a geranium do? Oh wait - here's a hemostat but I've been using it as a roach holder. It's a bit grungy. Maybe if I rubbed it with this crystal.'' ''Don't upset your karma, nurse. The patient just bled to death.''

Subject: Would a geranium do? LOLOLOL [nt] From: Mo;ey To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 19:18:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: We're aiming the rocket at Mars From: PatC To: Mo;ey Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 19:41:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''Where's the astronomer? We need to check our calibrations.'' ''The astronomer went home with food poisoning from the cafetaria but Mavis the char-lady knows astrology. Would that help?'' ''Sure, but we'll have to update her star-charts because they're 2,000 years out of date and Mars is about 30 million miles away from where she thinks it is.'' Now I must go bath and dress for dinner. Tonight I'm wearing this little fishnet number. And you - I suppose, like Marilyn Monroe, just Chanel No 5?

Subject: Buddhist 'teachings' etc. From: Joy To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 01:30:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Nigel. Absolutely brilliant post, I agree. For many years post-cult I proudly abstained from all forms of packaged spirituality. Then around 1992 or so got into the Tibetan Buddhist tradition for about five years. My 'teacher''s talks were always referred to as 'teachings' in the most reverential (and cult-like, I now see in retrospect) way possible. Tibetan Buddhism makes no bones about the bhakti yoga side of itself, touting 'guru-yoga' as one of the highest forms of practice. At least in that respect they're honest, unlike alot of these other shysters who just dazzle you with it and ensnare you and hope you can keep up the dance long enough for them to make a good living out of it. I'm so grateful to be living my life now free of gurus and teachings of all sorts (now there's gratitude for ya). A post like that is so much more enlightening than any guru ever was! (Ever consider becoming a guru yourself? There'd be good money in it!) Love to you and Moley, Joy

Subject: Scientology From: Neville To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 02:22:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Ever consider becoming a guru yourself? There'd be good money in it!' As L. Ron Hubbard appreciated. Neville

Subject: Re: A Cult-Spotter’s Guide #1: ‘Teachings’ From: Pat W To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 01:07:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're points are very relevant Nigel. I have been having similar ruminations myself. Morphic resonance perhaps? I am going to send your post to a few people I know as a part of our ongoing debate. I am also going to show it to a fellow I know who is enamoured of the teachings of the Hare Krishna movement!

Subject: Re: Morphic resonance From: AV To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 02:11:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hey PW, sound like a lift from a PCM 91 manual, geddouta that studio boy, your brain is becoming a giant plug-in! btw, did you make Am'roo? you posted u were going, but must have missed your impressions. B good AV :-)

Subject: Re: Morphic resonance From: Pat W To: AV Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 03:11:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry AV....that bit about Amaroo was my pathetic idea for an April Fool. It was on April 1st.

Subject: Anyone else actually read this ... this thing? From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 17:53:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nigel, This is one fantastic post. You know, usually when I see a long Nigel post I just kind of wait and see what others might say. If they cry 'BEST OF' I might take a look. Or if a cultweasle spits at you with that extra spurt of venom, well, I might just read the whole thing. I mean, we're busy people over here, Nige. It's not like the old world, I'll tell you that. But this one I more or less found all by myself. And what a proud little boy am I! I wonder, will anyone else notice this post, perched as it is so high above the best forum real estate? The bold text should be excerpted as a primer of sorts. So no one has to do what I did and read through the whole thing. Hey, I'll do that for you!

Subject: The really good parts of Nigel's post From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 17:57:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here, I've carefully re-posted the stuff worth reading: For the last four years, for my sins, I have been 'teaching' university students - an activity which involves the sharing of facts, theories, arguments, ideas, questions, speculations, hypotheses, advice, instruction and guidance. One form of information exchange I never deal in, however, is the ‘teaching’. Participle as noun. ‘Teachings’ are the exclusive province of personality cults, ‘spiritual’ groups and Deputy Dog and have sweet FA to do with education or learning. I just ran a Google search for the word ‘teachings’. The first ten results thrown up were: - Spiritual Teachings... - Metista: Spirituality And Shamanism For American Mutts... - Tendai Lotus Teachings- Welcome... - Teachings Of The Buddha... - Dharma Teachings... - Teachings of Swami Sivananda... - SpiritWeb: Spirit Teachings... - The Teachings of Silvanus... - Teachings of Bodhidharma... - The Michael Teachings -- Resources, Channeling, and Spiritual ... A pattern, you might say, seems to be emerging… But what is a ‘teaching’, anyway? Try this, from ‘Krishna Consciousness: The 'Science' of Self-Realisation’: > In April 1973, during a long morning walk at Venice Beach, in Los Angeles, Srila Prabhupada [founder of the International Society for KRSNA Consciousness] turned to the subject of modern science and scientists. With philosophical rigour, profound common-sense, and disarming frankness, he exposed the narrow-mindedness and illogic behind the scientists' commonly accepted theories about the origin of life. [!!!!????....] Dr Singh: Of course, so much is being written about Darwin's theory. In any library there are hundreds of books on his theories. Srila Prabhupada: Do they accept or reject them? Dr Singh: Generally they accept him, but there are some who are very critical. Srila Prabhupada: Darwin speaks about the evolution of the species of life, but he has no real information about spiritual evolution. He knows nothing about the progress of the spirit soul from lower forms of life to higher forms. He claims that man has evolved from monkeys, but we can see that the monkey is not extinct. If the monkey is the immediate forefather of man, why is the monkey still existing? Dr Singh: Darwin says that the species are not created independently but are descended from another. Srila Prabhupada: If there is no question of independence, how can he abruptly begin with a certain species? He must explain how the original species came into existence. ... Dr Singh: Weren't all the varieties of animals existing from the beginning? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Simultaneous creation is verified by the Bhagavad Gita. ... Mike Robinson [BBC interviewer]: Can you tell me what you believe - what the philosophy of the Hare Krsna movement is? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna Consciousness is not a question of belief; it is a science. > And so it goes on – (the two short planks don’t even get a reference..) But the idea that Krsna Consciousness is not a question of belief; but it is a science is a prima facie ‘teaching’. As are all the preceding batty statements made by the guru. For any public declaration, no matter how daft, to become a ’teaching’ it merely needs to be uttered by an authoritative, or authoritarian voice – that of someone whose words have been accorded a special status by a consensus of two or more would-be followers. In this respect, with all 'teachings', the source is more important than the content.. If you or I were to go around informing people that ‘the sky is blue’, this would be a simple statement of fact. When a great soul utters those same words, we have a ‘teaching’, possibly a profound one. When Mr Prem Pal Singh Rawat of Prem Nagar and Malibu, (aka. 'Guru Maharaj ji') declares that 'seeds are dead', (but eggs are not) they might as well be just that, for all the devotee cares. He could with equal confidence declare that the sky is green. Or if I say: ‘stay near the rich man’s door, and accept his blows. He may be pleased one day and give you his favour’... .. this would be merely a piece of useful advice on my part. When the same words are spoken by a certain Shri Hans Ji Maharaj of this parish, we have another ‘teaching’. And 'teachings' deserve and demand deference. You could almost define a 'teaching' as 'whatever it is your guru happens to say next'... So although a ’teaching’ might involve the sharing of facts, theories, arguments, ideas, questions, speculations, hypotheses, advice, instruction, guidance or gobblegook, none of these elements, in themselves or in combination, comprise a 'teaching'. (And few, if any, of those terms are ever employed in a cult environment, anyway. 'Teaching' is always a safer and more certain descriptor for a guru's thought-bubbles) What is required is the willing suspension of disbelief when your spirit guide holds forth. And ‘teachings’ are the exclusive property of the cult leader. They are not formulated via discussion, democratic process or committee. Rather, they are handed down, small, but always perfectly formed, by the Wise One. They may later be revised, a bit different, but still perfectly formed, often without warning, but only by the Wise One. And when the Wise One's pronouncements are repeated by others within the personality cult, they remain the Wise One's ’teachings’ rather than mere beliefs or ideas of the Wise One which others happen to share. In this respect, ‘teachings’ are the antithesis of scientific knowledge - the latter becoming public property (ie. everybody’s and nobody’s) as soon as a theory or idea has been verified and accepted - whatever its source. All-comers may then pile in with their own research and ideas and will develop that theory further. A collective, rather than autocratic enterprise, and one which serves humanity as a whole. Not so with 'teachings'; 'teachings' are top-down, and ever more shall be - oh! ‘Teachings’ also contain hidden depths of meaning. If you or I were to declare that ‘happiness is an inner experience’, we would mean all that those words imply - but no more. But when a living saint breathes life into the same phrase by way of a ’teaching’, he/she reveals a quality of insight that goes ‘beyond words’. And so whenever the rival schools of guruland appear to share a ‘teaching’ (as with the above quote), only one’s own guru holds the copyright on the meaning behind the words – the rival gurus being, for the most part, upstarts and pretenders - hidebound, ritualistic and dogmatic, lacking that essential 'understanding', or whatever. How do you know that? - Well you don't really know that, but you sort of just do know that, you know..? That is not to say one cannot respect the 'teachings' of other spiritual guides. Of course you can - er, if you really must. Some new-age freelancers rumble about like loose cannon, constructing for themselves hybrid philosophies by cherry-picking the bits they like from any number of teacher's 'teachings'. But - crucially - none of those teachers or 'teachings' will have encouraged them to do that: ie. to look to the 'teachings' of others for complementary sources of enlightenment . Quite the opposite, in fact. Babaji does not endorse, nor even acknowledge the existence of Andrew Cohen, and vice-versa. 'Teachings' were never intended for maverick students. Which brings me neatly to the next point for the cult-spotter: teachings are self-referential.. They create an enclosed universe of concept and jargon which will not boldy go beyond its own final frontiers for inspiration, information or confirmation. I have only mentioned spiritual cults up until now, but this present example would apply to any number of fringe medicines, crank diets and psychotherapies. It is the supreme definition of a cult, be it Freudian, Breatharian or Aetherian, that its 'teachings' will establish a standalone frame of reference: a Jonestown or Waco of the mind. With their compounds out in the intellectual desert, happily isolated from science and common sense, 'teachings' will flourish and grow - running riot like mutant brambles, never challenged, questioned or cut back to manageable size. (Or, better still, rooted out and burned..) Because 'teachings' are non-negotiable. They are to be accepted and/or followed. In their frequently colourful and idiosyncratic ways, 'teachings' will incorporate a natural philosophy (ie. how the world is) with a moral philosophy (how we should live in that world). With the former, the guru's thought-waves are solemnly channelised, recorded and passed on as if irrefutable 'fact', be they banal truism or egregious bullshit. This kind of 'teaching' is to be accepted rather than discussed or queried. The latter form of 'teaching' involves advice and instruction on how we should go about the daily business of living our lives, cooking our food, going to the toilet and getting ourselves up to heaven in time. Perhaps 'commandment' might be a more fitting term than 'advice', here, since to decline that advice is perceived as a rejection of the 'teachings' as a whole. Follow, or be damned. Because 'teachings', finally, are an all or nothing proposal. To accept but one of a guru's 'teachings' is, de facto, to accept the lot. You might as well, since you have already bought in and compromised your integrity. The acceptance of, or adherence to a 'teaching' is not about validating or agreeing with a particular idea, philosophy or sentiment. It is, rather, a function of accepting the authority of the teacher rather than evaluating his words. To reject out loud just one of your guru's 'teachings' will more than likely lead to your own rejection by, and possible ejection from, the 'company of truth'. Oh yes - I nearly forgot - 'teachings' are about the truth, and don't you forget it. If somebody - anybody - tells you they follow the 'teachings' of 'x', 'y', or 'z', you are onto a pretty safe bet that they are in a cult. I prefer teaching.

Subject: Jim, the wise guy... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 20:18:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After I read Nigel's entire post I did the same Google search. There are 1,150,000 possible sites under ''teachings.'' Of all the good and insightful points in Nigel's post I liked his last line best: ''I prefer teaching.'' That says to me that Nigel also prefers ''learning,'' which indicates a lifelong enterprise not limited to one person's teachings but always going forward to find something new and stimulating every day. What a great observation Nigel. One little letter ''s'' makes so much of a difference.

Subject: Nigel's post for the New World businessman From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 18:05:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you don't want to read through all of Nigel's post -- and who could blame you? -- here are the salient parts: The source is more important than the content. 'Teachings' are the exclusive property of the cult leader. 'Teachings' are top-down, and ever more shall be. ‘Teachings’ also contain hidden depths of meaning. None of those teachers or 'teachings' will have encouraged ['students'] to do that: ie. to look to the 'teachings' of others for complementary sources of enlightenment. 'Teachings' are self-referential. 'Teachings' are an all or nothing proposal. 'Teachings' are about the truth.

Subject: Definitely my last post - a gorgeous guru From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 18:31:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As long as there are ''teachers'' out there teaching their ''self-referential'' nonsense, I guess you, Nigel, me and many other ex-premies and ex-other-gurujists, will be posting way, pulling them to pieces in a way that only former cultheads can. This guru, Sri Sri (yes two sris are better than one) Ravi Shankar (no not the sitarist) is much more refined and more educated than Balyouguesswhat - still young, handsome and has a much classier gig than Rawat's. He lives here in Silicone Valley quite a lot. There is a large Indian population down in the South Bay because of the computer industry. But Sri Sri has also attracted quite a few 20 and 30 something New Age Americans who are lot more preppy/yuppie than us old crusties from the sixties. He even holds classes at the prestigious nearby Stanford University. He also has a big following in South Africa - not only among the Indians. Why am I mentioning him? Read his website first and then come back and I'll tell you. Now, see? Didn't I tell you he was handsome, young and much less sleezy sounding or looking than Prem? Well, last night an Indian woman from South Africa (who now lives in Silicone Valley) came to dinner. I ended up talking to her for an hour after we closed - about life, the universe and everything including our former gurus. It turns out that she had taken Sri Sri's ''Art of Living'' course. Everything went fine in the beginning for her. It was interesting enough to keep her attention but then she was invited to attend the private ''satsangs.'' Then came the real story. As she said, ''The meditation was fine. The people were great. They were really nice and friendly but I started to see that they were mesmerized by the guru - all gushy and thanking him for everything as if he was god.'' ''Just like my guru,'' I said; ''it's bhakti.'' ''Yes, that's what they called it.'' I won't write about our whole conversation as most of it is OT (we had a lot more in common as fellow South Africans than as former guru-suckers.) But let me tell you more about this woman as she is fascinating and I think her story explains why she didn't swallow the gurujism. Her parents moved from Punjabi to Tanzania in the fifties when it was still a Colony in the Commonwealth. Her grandparents had been Hindus but had converted to Bahai. She was born in Tanzania and raised Bahai. When the former Colonies expelled the Indians in the seventies most went to the UK and some to Canada. Her parents moved south to Botswana. (Botswana is a kingdom encircled by the Republic of South Africa. Eventhough Botswana is nominally independent - as are the other two kingdoms surrounded by South Africa, Lesotho and Swaziland - it as much part of the Republic politically and economically as the kingdom of kwaZulu is.) Anyway, she came to Chicago to do her Master's degree. There she met a man from Atlanta. He was married with kids and a staunch Baptist from a very conservative Christian African-American family. Well, they are now married and I met him last night - a real old-fashioned Southern gentleman. Her family completely accepted him when she took him to visit them in South Africa. However the other Indians in her parent's hometown did not. His family is very uncomfortable with her. She is not Christian, not black, a professor at Stanford University and a radical feminist - she teaches women's studies and is doing a doctorate thesis about the lives of South African tribal women who do not go to school but remain in the tribe. (More than half of the blacks in South Africa still live the traditonal tribal lifestyle.) BTW, eventhough she is a leftie, we agreed that Islamic fundamentalism stinks. Anyway, to cut a long story short, she obviously could not fall for a guru being too independent-minded. I had to explain to her (it was embarassing) that I was not so lucky as I had been so discombobulated and ignorant 30 years ago when I got suckered. I look forward to hearing a lot more of her story. I also want to ask her a lot more questions about Sri Sri. We spent most of the time talking about South Africa of course. PS Sri Sri Raving Shagger looks like a drip to me. Maybe I am just becoming prejudiced against Hindu gurus. But, hearing that westerners are still falling for this crap, has made me realize that I'll be posting criticism of this eastern mumbo-jumbo until I see the last Indian guru's cremated holy ashes floating down the sacred Ganges. Prem does not have a monopoly on my antipathy towards gurujism. They all stink to high heaven.

Subject: Re: Definitely my last post - a gorgeous guru From: Vicki To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 10:19:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I never fully understood 'bhaki' so I put it in Google....holy smokes there are dozens of sites. This one was rather concise and telling. I can't believe I was doing 'bhaki' for 28 years and didn't have a clue. I thought it was something new and quite sane, I mean what else would one do for the Lord Incarnate? It ALWAYS comes down to that one point....living manifestation of the lord. Bhaki www.ramsjb.com/talamasca/avatar/yoga1.html

Subject: Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, I heard that one before:) [nt] From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 20:26:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: to PatC From: Bolly Shri To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 06:04:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry it's difficult to stop posting, but you know you like it. Did you ever encounter a guy (non premie when I knew him ) named Phil Singer in your neck of the woods? Looked abit like Frank Zappa.

Subject: Sorry, Bolli. No, I don't know him. [nt] From: PatC To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 09:57:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Poem From: Neville Ackland To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 05:05:17 (PDT) Email Address: primemover@hypermax.net.au Message: Hi everyone. It’s Neville Ackland here. I wrote this poem, I don’t know the first thing about poetry and I’m sure it doesn’t follow the rules. Nevertheless, I hope you all enjoy it. It’s dedicated to my mum who died with a broken heart, a result of Maharaji’s demands on me and my belief in him. Sincere thanks to all the ex-premies who wrote and phoned immediately after my protest at the gates of I.R.C.C. on Sunday 21 April 2002. I have written Maharaji a letter which is quite confronting. I will post it on ex-premie.org as soon as I have time. Here’s my poem, hope you like it. By Neville Ackland It was ’72, I was 21 on a quest for the truth all starry-eyed. Along the way I met a man a boy in fact, who seemed so wise. He told me of a dream come true, a dream I’d dreampt myself one day. He said he’d be my God for me, a guru to surrender to. I prayed to God, could this be true? Is this the answer to my prayers? From my soul the answer came, the consciousness of bliss is here. So surrender to I surely did and when I did, I did some more. Then at last came my reward, to live a life to serve the Lord. To please him was my only need, he smiled at me and I saw God. I told my friends, what could they say, Divine light shone on my stage. My mother lost her only son, abandoned for a greater cause. Broken-hearted, health was failing, alone she turned to face the wall. She died this way, no compromise. I prayed for her to know the truth, that I was right and she was wrong, Maharaji was my living proof. A surrendered soul knows it’s home when resting at the Master’s feet. He was my Lord, he told me so, my spiritual journey was complete. The years went by, the mission grew, confusion reigned amongst the bliss. The Ashram’s closed, we never knew, this was life, and life was this. But the Master’s game had just begun, he became our God, in suave disguise. Only premies knew the truth, it became a sin to criticise. An image change is what he said would do the trick and make his day. I’m now a teacher, not a guru, and you’re my students not my slaves. Satsang service meditation all were changed to suit his whim. No more dancing, no more Krishna, to mention guru was a sin. The premies were his faithful children, at father’s feet they laid their heads. To keep the secret of the master was our duty, a solemn pledge. An explanation wasn’t needed, we all knew his secret plan, avoid the media and detection, the Lord of Lords was just a man. Behind the scenes he was our saviour, he looked so good in new disguise. So cool, so funny, such charisma, and now it seemed, so worldly wise. The dashing pilot, the super jet, the mansions cars and all that stuff. He deserved it, but didn’t need it, he needed no one including us. Massive projects he demanded, money was his greatest tool. When useless spending came to nothing, he played it cool, we played the fool. As time went by it became apparent, the boss’ plans were sometimes mad. We were only being tested, the doubting Thomas went underground. There were problems, and problem premies, those who were close to him, the privileged few. They protected their own interests, and the boss’ secrets grew and grew. Now there was a mega mansion, and Amaroo, a world away, became the focus of attention, not all was well, such fateful days. Some brave souls, within their prison, knowing where their motives lay, tried to take the reigns of progress, their cause was crushed, their spirit slain. One fateful day amid the madness, the penny dropped, at last I saw, Maharaji, master of deception, my heart broke, I smiled no more. Catatonic devastation, seething anger, revelation, my child shattered, nothing mattered, frightened friends head for the door. I begged forgiveness from my mother, dead and buried long ago. Ten thousand hours of consultation before the pain began to go. Spiritual crisis, all faith shattered, confrontation overload. My life’s focus all in tatters, God is dead…religion sux…Oh no! Alas for guru, lord and master, it was too late to patch the leak. Grief and anger, heartbreak sorrow, were met with silence, disbelief. He made it clear, the parent raged, how dare they think and speak their mind. It’s either my way or the highway, no one dared to cross the line. Shock and horror, children crying, fathers angry, we are failing, surrender further to the lila, we live to love another day. Criticism from the airwaves, information party time. Accusations in the real world, from those he thought he’d left behind. Haunted by that hunted feeling, looking for a place to hide, the man withdraws within his fortress, to play the game of mastermind. Things not getting any better, millionaire fat men aren’t the go. Support is leaking, it’s very messy, the mop brigade runs to and fro. Whilst he’s got his faithful premies that come for miles to kiss his feet, it’s easy to forget his worries, till next he looks in disbelief. The internet in all its glory kept his soldiers up all night. As dawn broke the truth was spoken, the master’s ears were filled with fright. Under cover, in the moonlight, the phantom struck, confusion reigned. Churches, councils, business leaders, all were caught up in the game. Meanwhile in the local town his reputation got around. Letters flying, spray paint splattered, leaflets littered on the ground. They called the police and blamed the Christians, Peak Crossing seethed with discontent. 5000 leaflets, the town was covered, the phantom struck with shrewd intent. 3000 premies, Sunday evening, the sun was setting on Ivory’s Rock. The lord had spoken and they were leaving, nothing prepared them for the shock. Someone boldly on the roadway, holding high a sign that read, “Maharaji, master of deceit. You broke my heart, you didn’t care.” The message made it loud and clear that in the court he would appear. He dared Maharaji, stand and face him, called him liar, coward, fool. The premies fled into the darkness, no one dared break the rules. Gone forever the hurt chid victim, in its place a new man born. No more fear, no more anger, the phantom’s friend was 10 feet tall. Secret’s out, his cover blown, the police and press are next to know. Amaroo will soon be over, the lord of lords will have to go. And as for you, Maharaji you gutless little shit, the game is up, your cover blown, it’s time for you to quit. Amaroo is surrounded, there’s no place left to hide. You always were the god of nothing, a victim of your foolish pride. My heart bleeds, for the premies so trapped within your snare, for when you fall, so will they be crushed by their despair. When next you choose to come to town, there’s one thing you can bet. I’ll be there with bells on, you ain’t seen nothing yet. Dedicated to the memory of my mum. You were right, I wish you could be here now.

Subject: An epic poem to be sure! From: Richard To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 09:30:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neville, Right on brother! Yours is an epic poem that tells it like it is. Your mum would be so proud of you for having the courage to blow against the wind of conformity. Thank you for sharing your words of passion. Gone forever the hurt chid victim, in its place a new man born. One of the rewards of speaking one's truth is to become one's self. Earlier word of your exploits at Amaroo elevated you to mythic hero status hereabouts. I propose that, henceforth, any similar protest of an M/PR event shall be known as Neville-ing! All the best, Richard

Subject: Organised protest From: Pat W To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 01:28:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice one Neville. I was thinking about Neville's lone stand with sandwich board or whatever, at Amaroo. I am beginning to think that some sort of routine organised protest at Maharaji events worldwide would be a worthy cause even if only a few brave souls could muster up the courage. What we need is some sort of globally organised protest of this nature isn't it? I was thinking of all the 'apt' slogans that could be paraded. (probably deserving of a separate thread, no?) Hamzen asked below if anyone in the UK would be interested in some peaceful protest action during M's forthcoming visit to the UK (a friend emailed me this:Brighton is to be the unlucky recipient of Fatboy Not Slim on 22nd July followed a day later with an introductory programme at The Barbican. The church ladies have been asked to raise £35 per seat for the latter to cover costs. Ha bloody Ha! So, basically if a premie takes 2 guests they are £75 lighter!!) This set me thinking about organised protest and how it really would have an effect.What have we got to lose after all, according to Shri Hans we're all going to hell in a handbasket anyway - we might as well throw in our lot with Neville and really make a stand for the underdog. He who criticises both God and Guru is liable to croak like a frog for thousands of lifetimes together. If Lord Shiva (the Destroyer) becomes angry with you, Guru can save you. But there is no one who can help you, if Guru becomes angry. One should never go against his Guru, for Guru is both father and mother. He who thinks Guru Maharaj Ji is a human being is blind. He will remain very unhappy in this world, and death will not relieve him of his sufferings. Know that no one is superior to the Guru. If someone thinks the Guru is a human being, that is his misfortune. He is of dull intelligence like a bull without a tail. The entire world knows that Guru is greater than God. Shri Hans

Subject: Brilliant, wonderful, thank you! From: Francesca To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 22:18:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you Neville, for telling your heart-wrenching story. Johnny Mac has told us of your bravery and your good heart. Peace to you, my friend, Francesca

Subject: In a nutshell...bloody brilliant Nev!!!nt [nt] From: Chris & Carla To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 18:26:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What DO you call that little funny feeling From: Jim To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 16:27:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that you get at the base of your spine when something really moves you? Anyway, pretty powerful stuff, Neville. It took me a moment to realize that you're the guy John MacGregor told us about. I tried to call you a couple of times but you weren't in. Great work on that. I'm sure your mother would be proud. Jim

Subject: Superb! From: Marshall To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:34:47 (PDT) Email Address: non Message: Hi Neville, You are wayyyy coool (so is the other Neville). What can I say? Great poem! Also, your 'one man stand' at Amaroo, is the stuff legends are made of! Have a Good Day, Marshall (b)

Subject: Thanks Neville.Please post the letter asap.nt From: la-ex To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 08:44:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: True poetry. Banjo would be proud!nt From: Bryn To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 06:29:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Banjo would be proud!nt From: PJ To: Bryn Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 09:42:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Let's hope it's better than Banjo. Ist line of the original Waltzing Matilda : 'O there was a swagman camped by a water-hole' (transformed by his editor into : 'Once a jolly swagman camped by a billabong...')

Subject: Banjo was good! Banjo was deep!nt From: Bryn To: PJ Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 01:48:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The jumbuck was the Real Aussie From: PJ To: Bryn Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 02:56:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The phrase 'waltzing Mathilda'(originally Mathilde) comes from the German, Mathilde being the overcoat or blanket of German soldiers, worn across the chest. Banjo didn't even know a water-hole was locally called a billabong. It seems to me the jumbuck is the real hero in this, as he is the only genuine Aussie in the business. Obstreporous POM Actually - this is said in jest. I've liked (mythical?) Aussies since seeing a film years ago called Forty Thousand Horsemen, about Anzacs during the war - all in floppy bush hats, with Lee Enfield rifles. Can you recommend any good material on Banjo? I've always loved Waltzing Mathilda. Started playing it on my piano yesterday after reading your post. I've no idea why they never made it the Oz national anthem. Cheers.

Subject: A Banjo P. cult? From: Bryn To: PJ Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 03:33:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear PJ, I am no literary expert on ol'Banjo. I was given an anthology of his poetry two years ago for my birthday. Eventually I read some, then all of it! I liked it a lot. Call me old fashioned etc. It does have something to it. permit me: 'A kind of wry, gritty, maleness, individual, competetive, yet somehow vulnerable in the face of destiny' Yech. I don't like talking about poetry. Most poetry is too much already imo, let alone using it to generating more shite. I don't know of any stuff 'about' the man BP. But I do like and respect Nevilles poem above. Very much. it is definitely Banjoesque! Love Bryn

Subject: Banjo - not good but Great From: PJ To: Bryn Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 08:48:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Bryn, Banjo wasn't good - he was fucking great! Forgive a POM for mildly talking the piss, after years of the reverse direction. 'A kind of wry, gritty, maleness, individual, competetive, yet somehow vulnerable in the face of destiny'. Yeah - for sure! It also does apply to Neville Ackland - in spades, or, as you guys underneath might say, 'with bells on'. If you like good colonial stuff, however (take this from an effete pom, if you like) try Robert Service. He's all about the Yukon gold rush in 1899. One of my ancestors made the big trail from Darwin to the Fields, dug out his stash, avoided the claim jumpers, made it back to home, and bought a big house in, would you believe - Manchester?? That's an enormous joke in pom terms. Love,PJ

Subject: Re: Poem From: Bolly Shri To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 05:48:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neville A. Your poem says something isn't that what a poem is for? There are people who cared about me who are dead now and the opportunity to say anything is gone. My mother died about twenty years ago, I feel like she is in my life, having learned about her and the things she cared about in the years since then. What you did at Amaroo was admirable thank you LOL Bolly

Subject: soz! BETTER than one(nt.) From: AV To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 03:36:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Two Worlds? are they batter than one? From: AV To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 03:35:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: after a bit of an unkind gut reaction to JA's thingy below, I wanted to write a whole schpiel about the whole idea of retreating to an 'inner changeless world', as some kind of remedy for having become God's victim and ending up in a universe where, dammit, things are just sooooo fucking unreliable.... you get where I am heading, This is a real biggy, because I (and many others) are reaping the side affects of accepting the: CHANGELESS, 2 MUTABLE, 0 score system of human experience. Nature yields infinite beauty, infinite variety, and that is mimicked by our attempts at creation, the arts. Everything GOOD about life is inexorably bound to the constantly changing patterns around us; how drab to watch 'identi-clouds'! Yes it is 'good' to have a place of inner rest to return to, but I can't remember two meditations ever being the same? So how come we became caught up in the embrace of a thought sytem where a changeless reality was lauded as the ultimate, the pinnacle of human experience, and change was a product of the demon maya? 'A Change is as good as a Rest,' anyone?

Subject: Re: Two Worlds? are they batter than one? From: Thorin To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 12:21:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks AV, for the thought provoking thoughts The stillness of the raging river ... The stillness of the dance .... The 'flux' of life ... The movement of a pond ... All to be grabbed and immediatly let go off. Spontaneous moments of love. The wandering ancient mariner perhaps? All a bit hippy-trippy, I know, but their is no pursuit, IMO, our destination is the start. And yes change is as good as a rest. Things are soooo beautifully unreliable......yet we trundle along. Love, Thorin ps lets batter the worlds into one :)

Subject: Changelessness takes a battering From: Disculta To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:50:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And I couldn't agree more, AV. It's such an emperor without clothes, this obsession with changelessness. The entire universe is in constant movement, and the only way I've found to get any sense of stillness has been to keep moving. Certainly sitting with rod-like spine trying to be 'still' and trying to 'stop the mind' and such static practices all seem like desperate resistance to the teeming, lively way of things to me these days.

Subject: Re static practices From: AV To: Disculta Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 14:32:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: static is OK when the pressure of being THE ONLY PLACE TO BE has been removed stllness s beautful also by contrast to the teemng; they need each other do you think? like a flame needs to be fanned by the wind to make it brighter. But with the rigid rule, the flame cannot bend with the breeze and is extinguished. Love AV.

Subject: Re: Re static practices From: Disculta To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 16:49:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, AV, you're right. I was being static in my adherence to dynamism! ;–)

Subject: To Disculta From: AV To: Disculta Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 02:00:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........breeze xx

Subject: Peter Pan and Never Never Land? [nt] From: Jim To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 08:55:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yeah wots so great about changeless? From: Bryn To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 05:29:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good queston AV, how come? We certainly DID embrace the embrace you mention. I think the 'psychodynamic' theories of religion offer some insight. Freud, for all his oddities, gives some wonderously lurid accounts of human potential to jumble up identity, sexuality, God, infantile terrors, secret desires, passion, organic body functions etc. It's a swamp I'm still mapping and expect to be for a while. All respect to him I say, though I don't think a conventional interpretation of him works. You have to add a bit of mystic creativity to make it all live I think. For some reason I was born megalomaniac, and joining the elite of the immutable god people was fatally attracive to me. I really wanted to be an angel I spose-wierd thought now. I'm into Wilfred Bion at the mo. He's regarded as whacky and esoteric, but he doesn't half say things. Mr. B describes change as neccesserily 'an explosive' phenomenon. Once something genuinely new emerges into the system, the system is destined to be blown apart by it, and knows it! So leave no room for doubt in your mind or take the consequences. That's a possible answer for the above . How about the triumph of substance over form? Sheer desparation of soul demanding fixity at any price? Denial of ones own will, or ones will being so damaged/distant as to be considered unuseable or unrecognizeable? Simply side with the mighty flow (everywher y you go-o-o)and LO! you are 100 percent Gracemeister,cruising and slaloming between the lilas-all powerful! Wow I believed that one! Jesus has a lot to answer for on this one too, him being ALL loving, superman, never properly born and never actually dying etc. Thanks for the question, love Bryn

Subject: Re: Yeah wots so great about changeless? From: AV To: Bryn Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 07:56:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cheers Bryn, I believe (no, delete that..) I KNOW there is an experience of what FEELS like a changeless loving energy, but i've never been immersed in it for long enough to find out... given that it's a possibility, the TEACHING and/or INSTRUCTION from the one who put you in touch with that realm of conciousness needs to offer ONGOING support of how to reconcile that inner world with the challenges of day to day life without becoming withdrawn and reclusive. One of my MAJOR concerns was always that M advocated this idea of 'Living in M's World' with all the implied remarks about 'only one REAL boss' (re-employers, losing jobs by disappearing to events) , only one REAL family, etc etc. M was (and I assume still is..) secure in his 'Ivory Tower', not that he appears to be a particularly happy bunny, soooo sad considering the potential for good at the beginning, while everbody else , with the exception of a few wealthy honchos and PAMs have to 'cope' with the changes. But it the fact that the over-emphasis on the 'changeless state' rather than a natural balance was always hammered into my head from a great height has, years later made me anxious and fearful of change; never looking for the adventure of broadening horizons, but always scurrying back to the comfort zone , unwilling to face or deal with life at the sharp end. This is where my work has been, trying to heal this tendency, among others. How disabling. BTW, nothing wrong with angelic aspirations once in a while, a pair of sturdy wings can come in very handy...extrememly 'elegant' also!

Subject: Love From: Disculta To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:55:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV, you said: 'I KNOW there is an experience of what FEELS like a changeless loving energy, but i've never been immersed in it for long enough to find out.' I want to agree with this, in addition to what I said above. I can get down with the idea of there being an always loving energy behind it all. (Did you notice my contemporary use of 'get down with, btw - my teenage stepkids are here!). Always loving doesn't mean the same as changeless. I think the idea of changeless has been created in resistance to a sense of loss. I could go on and on about this, actually, but I won't. Love to you and thanks for this better-than-coffee chat. ktd

Subject: Joan Apter interview on K-lite From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:29:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is a vague, nebulous interview a premie recently did with longtime (former?) PAM, Joan Apter, for his vague, nebulous website: The Journal #7 - Joan Apter: No Longer a Luxury Here is another conversation I had with someone examining inner experience. Joan Apter is a licensed massage therapist, living in Woodstock, NY ONN Joel: When I talk to people about inner experience, they may say 'Yes, I know what you are talking about -- intuition, inspiration, and deep feelings.' But this is not what I mean. What do you find within yourself? Joan Apter: I find nothing! [laughs] There is so much outside. What I find delightful about going inside is that there is so little. It's the ultimate slowing down and quieting to focus within. The real question is how to focus within. Living in this community, I see many different ways of approaching the realm within. ONN Joel: How is your way of going within different? Joan Apter: What they have in common is a sincere desire to quiet the mind. People can say 'I quiet my mind by going into Nature. When I am out in nature, I find peace.' They have a point there, don't they? Some people say 'I find it when I am doing my work and concentrating. All of a sudden I go to another dimension of not thinking. I feel peace there.' That has validity too, cause the idea is to quiet the mind. The way that I've been shown also quiets the mind, takes me to a place of no thought, where I am not in the realm of thought or emotion. That is a very precious possibility. When I go within and practice the techniques of Knowledge I am looking for the same thing. Do I always achieve it? No. Have I experienced it? Yes. The possibility is an experience of what it is that keeps me alive, which actually sweeps me into itself and I am no longer in the realm of the mind and things, thoughts, highs, lows, good, bad, and all that. ONN Joel: I find that quieting my mind is not even necessary. I'd say there is something else within me besides thoughts, something which I can hold firmly on to. It may be more difficult when my thoughts are noisy but I can still hold on to it. Joan, what has your teacher had to do with your experience? Joan Apter: Well, if it wasn't for my teacher, I probably wouldn't want it as much. Because it was my teacher who gave me a glimpse, through his passion, of what is possible for me. I never even knew what is possible until my teacher sang me his song. We all have ideas of what is possible. He made it possible for me to even imagine longing for a place of love. ONN Joel: How is the inside realm different than the outside? Joan Apter: In the outside realm you have to put people on hold and talk to three people at a time while you are thinking about your plans for tomorrow, and thinking about preparing for tonight's class. The outside realm is all about multidimensional busy-ness. On the inside realm all you have to do is open up and enjoy and receive. Be thirsty, like a sponge. I would prefer for the outside realm to be more like the inside ... but it's not. ONN Joel: Do you find that your inside experience conflicts with the outside realm? Joan Apter: It's a question of reality. You live your life on the outside world, coping as best as you can with all that's there in front of you -- while keeping the filled feeling on the inside. I think the goal is to do them both at the same time. But, to tell you the truth, it's very tricky. ONN Joel: Why is it tricky? Joan Apter: Because it is hard -- hard to stay feeling full and grateful and satisfied from within and fight the fires around you. I find it very, very challenging. But I don't think, 'I prefer the inside and resent the outside world.' I want to be in a place where I am grateful. So it's tricky. ONN Joel: Has your outside life changed since you began to look within yourself? Joan Apter: The outside life is always changing. You have to cope with it. The outside world is always the same because things always change! Nothing stays the same. My inside life? There's something that is constant. Being aware of the inner world has made me more patient and sometimes I have a better sense of humor. But only if I don't take things too seriously. That's asking a lot, for me to not take things seriously, to realize that there is a constant inside and not sweat the small stuff. ONN Joel: Do you think that a feeling of constancy inside is something everybody can have? Joan Apter: Oh, yeah. Everybody already has that constancy. It's just a question of finding a way to hook into it. I am very aware that I've been given a gift that sets my practice apart from chanting and rites and external things. Maharaji gives such a streamlined and elegant path. I feel very grateful about that. ONN Joel: 'Elegant' -- That's the perfect word. He made it obvious that the way to go within is simply to go within. And he showed me how. That's elegance. Joan Apter: I think it is critical at this particular time to find a way to go within and practice a connection. We are going to need more and more to have people who really have something to offer. In order to have something worthwhile to give to the world, we need to find it inside. It is no longer a luxury for people to find a connection with their inner self. We have to find it. It's a must. It is worth the effort and it makes a big difference in the quality of life. The Online Noetic Network www.wisdomtalk.org/index.html

Subject: Why is this nauseating? From: Bryn To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 06:20:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....I mean it's full of good intent, and no-one is actually saying anything problematical about anyone else, but to me it is ...well, foul. I suppose it's because it is such a perversion of language, and the individual's use of language.. All the way through I can hear the influence, down to the phrasing, vocabulary, direction, nuances etc of his Holiness and the patterns of 'HIM'. THEIR thinking is almost completely absorbed into the thinking of Prem, but not quite! And its awful to hear this clumsy hybrid of individual and Master lumbering about. Please can we have one or the other folks? I couldn't be bothered to analyse any more. It is so depressing to read this stuff. 'Life-ers' is a word that comes to mind. Get rid of the baby, the bathwater, the tap, the plumbing and the entire house for god's sake, it's your only hope! Love Bryn

Subject: Re: Why is this nauseating? From: PatD To: Bryn Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 13:42:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's satsang,that's why it's foul & nauseating. Not your honest to god(sorry)straight up praise for the Bollixshwar & nazi rantings about surrender,that the lady was fond of delivering in front of thousands in the past,but it's still satsang. Yeah, you're right, she's got life for sure. Your mention of good intent reminds me of that old saying....William Blake?...'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'.

Subject: Disturbing thing for me is. From: Peter Howie To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 19:18:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The disturbing thing for me is the question 'Has your outside life changed since you began to look within yourself?' It is disturbing because she could not possibly answer this question anymore. For her being without knowledge is a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. Most of her life has been with MJ. And guess what... she doesn't answer but does a great sideways answer. Lets face it, her and most of the lifers of MJ are really unable to say what life is like without MJ because they have had little or none for many decades. Oddly it is this 'life with knowledge' time that many have that we can utilise as our comparison now that we are 'out' - much like we did when we received K. Ironic huh! The other thing that is disturbing is that she is saying very little -there is little real positive appreciation going on in that interview. Sure it is pro-MJ but it is not really very significant from someone who has been in for years and years and years. When was her epiphany due. Its a bit late really. Cheers for now Peter Brisbane, Australia

Subject: ''I find nothing''----finally a shred of honesty [nt] From: bill To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 16:52:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: more like a shred of bullshit hit From: la-ex To: bill Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 08:42:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, it is nice to see some premie finlly admit that what they find is nothing when they go inside... A few things come to mind when I read JA's drivel: 1)What is the difference between m's 4 techniques and and other meditation that is is supposed to help quiet the mind? Is that all he's offering now? A way to quiet the mind? It' a far cry from the original offering. Do I smell 'bait and switch'? 2)What happened to the 'kingdom within', with lights, sounds, vibrations and divine smells/tastes? Is it possible that no one ever experienced anything like that on any consistent basis, apart from some sort of random experience or wishful thinking induced momentary high? And because no one ever got the 'permanent residence' within, it's now advertised as nothing? (Kind of like 'Seinfeld' was a show about nothing, Pay Pal is a guru about nothing, with a meditation about nothing, and a teaching about nothing...?) 3)What is special about pay pal now is not that he has some sort of 'special powers' as the living perfect master, but that he can inspire you to go within. No mention is ever made of the original claims, when he exhorted us to 'shout it from the rooftops', that the perfect one is here, with full power and in full glory. Wasn't he supposed to sweep us all into the satyuga, from the kaliyuga? 3)Joan Apter is so full of shit, it's pathetic. She should go back and read her bullshit in 'Who is GM?', confront herself and gm, and apologize to the premies, especially the ashram ones, and work on a way to help them heal the maharaji-induced problems in their lives rather than cover them up, or pretend they never happened. Joan and pay pal deserve each other.

Subject: Re: and work on a way to help them From: AV To: la-ex Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:06:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Really!!! More than a few instances I found my self at the receiving end of her spiritual/emotional blackmail cosh. She's not the only one, I guess we took in turns, but she sure relished her reputation and standing. Thought those superpams were too good to be true......she could be talking about a new aromatherapy oil....how dilute can something get before it loses ALL it's taste.

Subject: Re: Joan Apter interview on K-lite From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 14:25:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1 'I never even knew what is possible until my teacher sang me his song.' aaah, so when I thought you were off meditating for hours at a stretch, you were actually having f*****g music lessons! 2.'He made it obvious that the way to go within is simply to go within. And he showed me how. That's elegance.' no it's not, it's instruction, get a dictionary. 3. 'sometimes I have a better sense of humor.' true, I find you hysterical. 4. 'On the inside realm all you have to do is open up and enjoy and receive' simple, innit! that's why premies are all so relaxed , humane and open. spinspinspinspinspspinspinspinspinspinspin grittily yours

Subject: Glaring contradictions? From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:56:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How come she refers to going to a 'place' within which is beyond emotion and yet she tries to maintain a feeling of gratitude in the result? How come she claims that we already have 'constancy' but we're just not constantly connected to it? Did she say 'tricky'? Hm..... :)

Subject: It's just too'elegant' for your mind, Jim.nt From: la-ex To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 13:05:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Keep going, premie ji -- almost there! From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:11:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From ELK: The distinction If I can't draw a distinction, between my ignorance and my Self-Knowledge, the only thing that remains to me, is my experience and understanding about my self And this was nothing before I started to experience and understand my master's teaching Stojan Svet Postojna, Slovenia

Subject: Wait, there's more! From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:15:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joyful, heartfelt ship Stojan Svet: From Postojna, Slovenia My body is my only garment. So with what will I identify, when I undress? My memory, as well is a part of my transparent clothing, So to what will I cling, when I lose it? At present my breath is clinging, to my dear heartfelt feeling. It is the only thing that's not in vain, This joyful ship is all that now remains, to me...

Subject: Late Review... From: Artie and Camilla To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 18:42:36 (PDT) Email Address: artieandcamilla@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Artie Snipes: Ok, we'll move on and talk about what's new in the poetry world. It seems the ever-prolific Stojan Svet has been attracting critical comment with his/her latest slim volume. Cynics sometimes remark that so much modern verse is essentially just prose – often bad prose, in fact, poorly-executed and with an embarrassment of ill-conceived and half-hatched metaphor - yet with a few random line-breaks thrown in to give it that 'look and feel' of a poem, but at the same time giving us a hint that perhaps irony is the name of the game. It's that whole nudge-nudge-wink-wink-so-bad-it's-good experience we have talked about right here before. What did you make of this, Camilla? Camilla Proust-Nugent: Well of Course Artie, 'random' line-breaks are the New Black - as this Slovenian Peasant implies in his Post-post-modern Discourse... My body is my only garment. So with what will I identify, when I undress? How Fluid, how articulate a Hint of irony yet subtly placed so euphorically (even, may I say, mesmerically) Under- Stated I am (as the discerning Listener may have noticed) deeply (neigh profoundly) moved By this Balkan peasant's appropriation of the lyric-iambic pentameter- form as A Derrida-like deconstruction of the ‘idea’ of the 'Body' How brilliant - Stojan (may I call you by your first name even though I haven’t shagged you yet?) you have uncovered (éxcuse le pun) what we all know, but deny – that the body Is not ‘there’ when we undress… Artie: Ahem..yes..ha-ha. I think most of our listeners and viewers know where you are coming from there. Well, some of them, anyway… Loved the disjointed style – see your point. Very…well.. very. But – hmm – I think our mail-bag might see one or two complaints about the ‘peasant’ reference. I think you have to bear in mind that the Balkans are very much not a cultural wasteland – not least, some would say, since Susan Sonntag and one or two other brave Western souls took drama, art and music to war-ravaged Sarajevo even before the last Serbian sniper had folded his rifle. So did I detect a note of class snobbery there with the peasant reference..? But, anyway, in the poem we have quoted, I was particularly taken by the phrase ‘my transparent clothing.’ Not being a Slovenian national myself (if you didn’t know – never been east of Watford - ha-ha), I have to admit to a certain uncertainty about Mr/Ms Svet’s gender. Transparent clothing might help us out a little here, no? Sexual ambiguity being what it is and everything… Camilla (on phone to agent - who is this moron? Look- can’t you find me an even semi-articulate creature to talk to?) Yes – well, where am I Coming from ? As if You would Know, you cretin. The point is, surely, that transparent clothing is a metaphor for the Sails – ‘I am sailing, I am Sailing’ ( as that great poet T. S. Elliot once Wrote - and he at least did NOT inhabit a cultural ‘Wasteland’) This joyful ship is all that now remains, to me... Joyfu L Shi P (Oh Stojan – I want you now) Artie:: Er… hmm. Well – quickly, before we go over to Theatre Roundup, perhaps I could add my tuppenceworth. Seriously, Camilla, don’t you ever get the teensiest bit pissed off with all this solipsistic, heartfeely, ‘breath is me, me is life, life is heart, heart is breath, life is life, life is nice’ shite..? Haven’t we been here before? No doubt it's endlessly interpretable subtleties it will ring a bell with many in your own circle, Camilla. But is it real life in the sense that people with, say, backyard lavatories would understand it? Camilla Yes, uuummm well, tuppenceworth worth – you said it … At present my breath is clinging, to my dear heartfelt feeling. Stojan, Yes, Yes, cling .... aaahhhhhhhhhhh!

Subject: Hampstead snobs...grrr :) From: Dermot To: Late Review Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 19:00:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hahaha...great stuff. :)

Subject: Re: east of watford From: hamzen To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 01:01:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If they came east of watford they'd be eaten alive There's already a hoxton square designer flavour getting too close to romford as it is, well they're into ilford now, having colonised leytoinstone Ahh let's see em at the moon & stars in romford high st, it would be hilarious, although not as hilarious as stovjan or whatever his name is turning up there next romford underground june 15th dermot, expect you there, I'll be playin some dubby stuff first up, then dj 3form will be doing plenty of braziliasn d&b, it really would be good to see ya's, and the vibe is sweet sweet sweet as they say

Subject: Re: east of watford From: Dermot To: hamzen Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 08:14:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It'd be good to make it to that shindig Ham. I've noted it. This time of year is always topsy turvy though....supposed to be chaperoning my Mater to and from Welwyn Garden City/Southampton though I've 4 brothers and none of us are sure who's doing what and when.All I know is my younger bro is bringing her down from up North.I could well be in WGC but i think there's a direct train....anyway we'll see. I'm about to head for Cornwall soon too as I'm trying to find a decent flat/house to rent or mortgage in Penzance/St Ives/Hayle area..or at least Exeter/Plymouth way ...depending if Broadband has stretched to the tip of Cornwall:) Can't stand this BT Anytime for much longer, too slow. I'll do my best to make it though.....June 15th. Cheers Dermot

Subject: Dermot - you have psychic powers OT From: Camilla To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 14:17:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Blimey. I've just spent the last hour doing web searches for mortgages, then thought I'd mosey on over here to see if anyone had responded to my rather scintillating (if I say so myself) post that I did with my partner in crime. Anyways, said partner and myself are highly likely to be in London on June 15th - so maybe I'll get to meet you in 3 dimensions! Best Moley (ooops, I mean Camilla)

Subject: Re: Dermot - you have psychic powers OT From: Dermot To: Camilla Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 20:42:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sure thing Moley, if I'm around. I'll get to meet most people eventually.....whenever that is. Sorry about that personal shit the Dave fella posted above....I'll say it a second time.....JERK :) Cheers me dear Dermot

Subject: It makes you wonder From: Marshall To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 16:36:39 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: It seems like a lot of the strangest poems on ELK come from Slovenia. Kinda makes you wonder what's going on in Slovenia? Where is Slovenia? Isn't that a former soviet province?

Subject: European Geography From: JHB To: Marshall Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 16:46:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It seems like a lot of the strangest poems on ELK come from Slovenia. Kinda makes you wonder what's going on in Slovenia? Where is Slovenia? Isn't that a former soviet province? --- Slovenia is a former Yugoslavian province. Although Tito was 'communist' he definitely wasn't Soviet, and almost brought Yugoslavia to war with the Soviet Union by defying them. And in spite of preventing war between the Serbs and the other ethnic groups within that artificial state for 50 years, he was a right bastard. Anyway, the Slovenian poems are all from one sad premie. John.

Subject: Small, cultured,relatively prosperous From: Dermot To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 17:49:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....and supposed to be a nice little country, to boot. I think it was the first(?) to get out of that Yugoslav turmoil and go it alone, wisely keeping out of all the bloodletting. It's also aspiring for EU membership.

Subject: I like this one, it's very .... zen From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:28:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My body is my only garment. So with what will I identify, when I undress? Very much in the style of 'What was my original face before I was born'. My memory, as well is a part of my transparent clothing, So to what will I cling, when I lose it? After unclothing my body, and losing my memory, what am I? What is left? No, this is good stuff. At present my breath is clinging, to my dear heartfelt feeling. Hang on, I've lost my body, which includes my lungs, so what's this breath thing? Shit I can't remember. It is the only thing that's not in vain, This joyful ship is all that now remains, to me... Ship? What's a ship? Where am I? What am I? I seem to remember wanting to know this once, but it's so foggy. Something to do with a young boy from India. I was a young boy once. Did I tell you nurse? We used to play football in the park. An old Indian gentleman used to watch us. Gave us sweets. I'm so tired now. I was thinking about something. The truth. Nearly found it.... I think.... but it's all too difficult to remember. Falls into a merciful and final sleep.

Subject: LOL .JHB! and...(ot) From: Bryn To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 04:36:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gongratulations on your nations triumph in the Eurovision. Haven't rung Drake yet but will. love Bryn

Subject: Re: I like this one, it's very .... zen From: AV To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 14:48:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: HOMEWORK: Write a short poem in the style of the mystics (Rumi, etc.) ... rustle rustle rustle rustle rustle rustle.... mmmmmmm...... 3 out of ten, see me after class.

Subject: Tittering to myself :) :) :) [nt] From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:32:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Turning a blind eye is a western tradition From: Peter Howie To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 05:14:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi all! Things are moving along. This has probably been posted and discussed a blillion times its just that I thought of it recently so for me it is new and original - if such a thing exists. Anyway - I've been reflecting on the propensity for our cultures to turn blind eyes to crooked deals going on. The Catholic church has been responsible for appalling things for nearly 2 thousand years and it still has adherents. All the arguments against MJ are true for the catholic church as far as I can see. I can't see one MJ argument that doesn't follow for the RC church. And there are plenty more as well that the RC church has thet MJ hasn't yet risen too or is likely to rise too. Starting adn conducting wars for instance. Anyway the other churches have been as bad at different times so there no excusing them either. I mean a church that is created in order to allow a King to remarry and keep more money, amongst other things. Henry the 8th and the Anglican church with now the British Queens being the head of the church. Yeah right! What all this means is that as a culture we (meaning the largely western mobs)have been long programmed to take abuse and keep asking for more. I mean these church things have enormous wealth, enormous political strength yet they are cults based on a dead jewish carpenter. I turn on TV and heard someone talking about how the world was created 6000 years ago. So it is now at all surprising that premies remain premies. Or that PAMs remain or that X rated premies remain. After all, people close to the pope and cardinals know what goes on. People read daily of neglect and abuses by the church here in Australia and they remein faithful. So for premies to remain premies. Not so surprising. Christians remain christians. Our culture doesn't have a broad education that creates robust independence in thought and spirit. Thats it for now cheers Peter howie Brisbane, Australia

Subject: A western tradition, or a human condition? From: Chuck S. To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 11:26:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All the major religions of the world began as 'cults'. And what is a major religion, but a cult that has established itself? The cult leader dies, a bunch of rules get made, and the cult seems less threatening without a living leader, so it becomes a religion. Religions like Catholisim and the Mormons have living leaders, but they are elected or picked via processes within those institutions, they don't just appoint themselves. Within those institutions, there is some accountability, however imperfect. All the major religions of the world often have cults existing under the general umbrella of the organization. For example, The People's Temple was a registered member of the Association of Methodist Churches. There are charasmatic cults existing inside the Catholic Church. There are Mormons who still practice polygamy, in defiance of the Main Church. In India, as the Rhadasoamis have become more mainstream, they have created a board or council that requires gurus to adhere to certain standards. Gurus like Maharaji and his father who don't fit those standards are 'cults'. In India, cults are more prevelant because anyone can suddenly declare themselves as guru. Cult isn't a dirty word there, it's much more common and taken for granted. Even in the west, cults find a niche in which to thrive. I think you make a good point Peter, that when it comes to people's religious beliefs, they seem quite willing to make irrational excuses and look the other way, in ways they would never do in other areas of their lives. I was literally told this by one of the members of the Participation Commitee I was working with, when I complained that we were wasting time and money on things that achieved nothing; I was told that sound business practices were the sensible thing to do in ordinary life, but in the realm of Knowledge, doing what the Master wants us to do, no matter how seemingly wasteful, was more important than what we think is common sense. It seems that rationality and sacred cows have a hard time existing side by side.

Subject: Re: A western tradition, or a human condition? From: Livia To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 06:17:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just found a book I must have had for years called 'Shopping for a God'. It's about cults and makes a lot of references to Maharaji. It's written from a Christian perspective but still makes a lot of reasonable observations. It talks about Maharaji's money, and the fact that he originally put himself across as God, then said he wasn't, and then said he was again! It even says that a lot of people couldn't take what amounted to blatant revisionism back then, and left. I must have read this book but it obviously had no effect on me whatsoever because I was a devoted premie at the time. Now of course the book seems to be talking just plain common sense. Why couldn't I see it then? But I just couldn't, and didn't. From the point of view of a devoted premie, the revisionism and lies and denial around the Jagdeo issue are mere trifles and irrelevancies when held up against the enormous conviction they feel. It's easier for them to bury their heads in the sand than to deal with the uncomfortable truths they would have to face. Same with the Catholic Church, Sai Baba and any other religion or belief system. There are people in Germany (not many, but they exist) who still believe Hitler was the best thing that ever happened to Germany. Belief systems, especially when inculcated at a young age, are incredibly difficult to shift. And when a belief system such as the one we took on is accompanied by an experience that can make you feel peaceful and happy, it's even harder to shift because it gives the belief more weight. Take away the belief, though, and you can't help wondering how much effect the experience would have. And take away the belief and no one would accept the lies and revisionism for a second. This is the power of belief to corrupt. Livia in a somewhat ponderous mood

Subject: Would it be worth it to .... From: la-ex To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 08:47:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: put quotes from that book on EPO?

Subject: quite possibly [nt] From: Livia To: la-ex Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 02:35:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Buddhist vipassana meditation From: Dep To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 21:21:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Buddhist vipassana meditation is also called insight meditation or bare attention. Adopt the roll of the witness. Don’t evaluate or judge your actions and thoughts; merely note them and let them be. Stop trying to change, resist or ignore things; just get up into the stands and be a spectator. You can transcend your mind by experiencing it directly. Here's how: - Get comfortable and close your eyes. - Just register thoughts and states in the present. - Don’t think about your thoughts, merely note them. - Let your mind wander and observe how it works. - Be present to your story. - Accept what is for you. - Embrace your experience. - Take your finger off the repress button and watch your thinking, listen to what you are saying to yourself, feel your feelings. - See, hear, and feel what is there for you. Do this for about 20 minutes day and you will experience that opening of the mind and arrive at the jewel of emptiness.

Subject: A Buddhist funny From: Richard To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 20:39:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Q: What did the Buddhist say to the hot dog vendor? A: Make me one with everything. www.northernsun.com/nsm/images/1680OneWith.jpg

Subject: Re: A Buddhist funny From: AV To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:11:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: arfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarf LOL

Subject: Re: A Buddhist funny From: cq To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 09:18:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... so the vendor of hotdogs (secretly a Boddhisattva?) makes him one, and asks for payment. The guy gives him a $10 bill, and the vendor walks away with it. 'Hey, where's my change?' shouts the guy after him. The vendor shouts back: 'Don't you know? Change comes from within ...' boom, mani padme om, boom.

Subject: Nirvana u look, the less u see! From: AV To: cq Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:14:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: That's a real LOLOL! [nt] From: Cynthia To: cq Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 10:40:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: like joan A said, ''nothing'' [nt] From: bill To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 16:53:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Pantheism (again) From: Neville To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 00:36:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I find I'm not much interested in being empty, tho' I can see the attraction. But, on a more generalised note: Religions worldwide have recognised that selfishness is the fundamental human problem. Legalistic religions (Judaism, Islam) deal with this with laws to control selfishness; Christianity's approach is the transformation of self (being 'born again'); the 'eastern bloc' approach (Hinduism, Buddhism--and, incidentally, M's shtick) is the annihilation of self. So at the root of Buddhism (which is, after all, just radical Hinduism) is the same impulse: the view that the self is something to be eliminated as maya, distraction, and its techniques amount to complicated and spiritualised ways of committing suicide. Hence my disinterest. Practice what you wish, but be aware the path ultimately leads over a cliff. Neville

Subject: So what is your schtick, Neville? From: PatC To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 02:18:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You've dropped little interesting tidbits in here and there but have never elaborated. I'm curious about your take on it. You write well so I'm sure it will be interesting to a lot of us. Just call me nosy.

Subject: Re: So what is your schtick, Neville? From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:56:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Me too Nev; the sinister thing about forms of meditation practice is the inherent rejection of yer actual everyday normal waking conciousness as on OK place to be. If there is ' a subtle energy which is pleasant and rewarding to experience', and one can feel it by, basically, shutting the fuck up for a while, then no harm?? But boy ,sometimes that comes with so many hooks it can seriously, and I mean SERIOUSLY screw up the fragile balance of the mind.

Subject: Yeah. I'd rather watch the flowers grow. [nt] From: Neville To: AV Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 10:07:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: So what is your schtick, Neville? From: Bolly Shri To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 06:54:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I read yesterday PatC that you were taking a break from posting. Obviously you can't resist and it is becoming an addiction. I sent the check to GodsRus and am expecting enlightenment soon if not later. LOL Bolly

Subject: Re: So what is your schtick, Neville? From: Neville To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 03:51:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, Nosy. You might call me a student of religion, as ever since I got out of DLM (yes, it was that long ago) I've kept an eye on religious phenomena. But my personal conviction is that no-one equals the authority of Christ. One of the things that disabused me of M was reading the New Testament and finding out what it *actually* teaches (as opposed to what premies said). I found it contradicted M at every point. But I also found a level of authority that nothing has ever equalled--and I include things like the Qur'an and the Bhagavad Gita in that assessment. As far as I can see, Christ is the only horse in the race: if he wasn't a genuine invasion of the divine into our world, then no-one is. That certain institutions have twisted his teaching into the diametric opposite of the original intention is another issue entirely. Sermon over. (Well, you asked.) Neville

Subject: Christ, I thought so From: PatC To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 10:29:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I picked up a whiff of old-fashioned christian values reading between the lines of your posts. One day when I have more time hopefully we can have a real conversation about that. I regard myself as an atheistic Anglican (I like the morals and the culture but not the theology.) Mickey the Pharisee has chided me for that. Mickey is an Epicopalian priest. Re-evaluating our christian tradition also helped me see through the primitive crap like Hinduism and Maharajism. Like you, I prefer to just watch the flowers grow. :C)

Subject: Re: Christianity and Christ From: Tim G To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:04:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I seem to remember that H.L.Menchen said something to the effect of 'There would have been a lot less trouble in the world if there had been a decent lunatic asylum in Jerusalem 2000 years ago'. I can't help but agree, with all due respects to J.Christ as another fellow human being of course. Religion and belief has done untold damage to millions and seperated people from the actual experience of their lives by introducing some conceptual goose chases adorned with inviting goals and rewards. That's MY halfpence worth Dear Cyberfriends!

Subject: Apologies in advance From: Peter Howie To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 05:23:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Couldn't help myself as I just sent another new post. I guess that you have noticed that your justification for the church is the same one that Catweasel uses to seperate his experiecne from EV. An why does what Chirst have to say have to be divine? What can't it be human in a context that requires spruiking the divine? Why is all worthwhile human endeavour seen as divine? Somewhat rhetorical but respond if you have time or inclination Cheers Neville peter howie Brisbane, Australia

Subject: Re: Apologies in advance From: Neville To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:00:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Peter. I'm not familiar with Catweasel's arguments. (What’s 'spruiking'?) I *think* this is an answer to your post: I've thought for many years about how something as clear and plain as Christ's teaching could result in the ghastliness of church institutions and certain appalling inhumanities, and it has lead me to see 'religion' itself as a fundamental human corruption that will always rise up if given a chance. I'm a Christian who *hates* religion. This is not actually a paradox. After all, who was it Christ called, 'a nest of snakes', 'whitewashed tombs', 'liars like your father', and 'hypocrites'? (And that was just the warm-up.) The woman caught in adultery? A tax collector? No, this verbal machine-gun he reserved exclusively for the *religious people*. In every culture there is some manifestation of this disease—with its piety, traditionalism, legalism, institutionalism, mindless, neurotic ritual and so forth. To my mind Christ hated religion, Christ’s teaching is fundamentally anti-religious, and the history of Christianity is largely a fight by those with some genuine spiritual sensitivity to escape the rising walls of religion (and they always rise). Martin Luther and the Reformation is a large-scale example of a frequent, smaller-scale phenomenon. (I remember noticing how quickly DLM became 'religious', instituting rituals such as the singing of arti. The version we sung actually had a line in it about how rites and rituals were useless.) Could Christ have been merely human? Was he (as Melvyn Bragg put it) just a failed apocalyptic? Personally, I don't think such an interpretation explains the phenomenon of Christ--it doesn't add up. I can sympathise with anyone so fed up with M's bullshit they want to find purely human solutions, but I am also too aware of philosophy and human limitations--that without access to something transcendental nothing we do has any lasting meaning or purpose. Without such a connection to the transcendental we are just like Galilee fishermen, fishing to live, living to fish, net result (no pun intended) zero. Then Christ came and said, 'Come with me, I will make you fishers of men.'—and that (mixing metaphors) was another ball game entirely. Neville

Subject: Re: Apologies in advance From: Peter Howie To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 16:25:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your thoughtful response. Spruiking - what a vegetable grower does in the marketplace to sell their wares. What ads do on TV. What trolls do here on this site. Firstly - Catweasel's argument. 'Its just me and MJ. The premies and the organisation are all bullshit. It is just me and him. So therefore everything on this forum is just another version of the stuff to be ignored or had fun with and doesn't have anything really to do with MJ and the real inner story. (imagined self saisfied sigh!!!)' For your second part - and I ask/present this in the spirit of the discussion we have started. Which from my end is presenting you with my conundrums/challenges and you responding with how it looks from your neck of the woods. Well first up - yes I largely concur that it is more a human condition than just a western one. I was thinking western because I started with catholosism and I don't like to be too much of a cultural imperialist. The question remains is why do you need to find meaning? Now I don't mean that in a silly manner. I myself like, and at times need to find meaning. I ask it because I have come across many people who have no need to find meaning. My wfe for one. Now in the days when I was a premie I would have put this down to their not being spiritually advanced enough to even ask the question. Now after many years in adult education I've discovered that there are people who are balanced and happy and are not obsessed with meaning - even after having money, secutrity and other needs met. So the question is - why do you seek or require meaning. And to allow this question to stay with you awhile. If you have the answer too fast then simply ask 'why do I believe that...?' to your next answer. I've also found many people who want to make a lasting contribution to 'humanity' or the 'greater good' and these people are very inspiring and non-religious. Cheers for now Peter Brisbane, Australia

Subject: Re: Meaning From: Neville To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 01:13:22 (PDT) Email Address: nrbarnes@btopenworld.com Message: Hi, Peter. Your question is a good one. Meaning is important because without it nothing we do has any point. I can turn around the question: Why bother to get up in the morning? Even, why bother to take another breath? What will it achieve? The vast bulk of our activities relate to blind biological imperatives—even some of most cherished feelings are revealed as mere biology. We may as well be algae. Is this good enough? I know lots of people who have apparently happy lives without addressing this issue, but then again if you look at the ministry of Christ there is a pattern. He would confront these same people and (a) show that there *is* some *one* thing around which their lives revolve (money, family, popularity, religious standing etc), (b) reveal this as a false god, because it is finite and thus cannot deliver meaning, then (c) present himself as the 'proper god', the link to the transcendental by which lives can be made meaningful. So part of the answer to your question is that we all almost certainly *do* look to something in our lifes to give it meaning. I don’t think any of us—consciously or not—can actually keep going without some apotheosis, a cornerstone to our existence. There *is* some reason why we get up in the morning. Secondly, this apotheosis is inevitably limited, a false god, probably a self-delusion, unworthy of our commitment. Neville

Subject: Re: Meaning From: Peter Howie To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 20:06:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi again, I'll persist a bit longer. You said 'Meaning is important because without it nothing we do has any point. I can turn around the question: Why bother to get up in the morning? Even, why bother to take another breath? What will it achieve? ' I see this as a preference for looking at life through the window or perspective of 'meaning'. Now to lay my cards on the table - I can completely get with what you are saying - and it is my preference - otherwise I swouldn't have been able to stay with MJ so long (13 years). But I do challenge ou to consider that 'meaning ' is not th only worthwhile lens to look at the world from. This is my challenge as well. 'The vast bulk of our activities relate to blind biological imperatives—even some of most cherished feelings are revealed as mere biology. We may as well be algae. Is this good enough? ' It could also be that there are certain temperaments of a biological nature that also include 'the search for meaning'. Which could mean that the search for meaning is a biological imperative. Much of what you say, while I agree with it, is still asked and posed through the lens of 'meaning'. If 'the lens of 'meaning' is considered just that. A lens - a way of looking at life - a way of looking at the world, as one of numerous 'ways' of looking at the world. So in that sense it has an element of tautology. Cheers and I hope this is useful for you because it sure is for me. Peter Howie Brisbane

Subject: Re: Meaning From: Robyn To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 18:38:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Peter and Neville, I have so enjoyed reading this thread so far and wanted to thank you. I come to certain theories on things and when I find a similar practice or belief in a religion I am attracted to it and check it out but no one has ever seemed to fit me overall. Still I find that my coming to conclusions that then also show up as parts of religions speaks to, at least, the universality of some basic premisses(sp) which facinates me also. I lean toward there being no god in particular but more of a consensous of nature. I don't really think about it, just lables anyway. I agree with you Neville about religions. I call it the institutionalization of something that started out good but is then, in an attempt to preserve it, is so structured as to cut off the life giving, changing air. It then becomes ridged and pron to the very things it preaches against, judging others, greed, whatever, in the structure of the organization. I can't stomach it. As for meaning, I try to live the best I can. That is very simply said but can be very challenging and difficult also gratifying and clicking right along timing wise. At the end of your posts, Peter, I have been amused by your Brisbaine, Austraila. I thought of a way to counter this myself. Love, Robyn Countrybumpkinville, USA :)

Subject: Re: Meaning From: Neville To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 02:18:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I doubt very much if a quest for meaning can have any biological origin. Indeed, at least one theory of aesthetics says that our sense of beauty is a Darwinian mechanism designed to divert intelligent minds from dwelling on the issue of meaning--so sunsets and mountain ranges provide a fake sense of meaning that can keep us going even when our intellect tells us it is pointless. The quest for meaning must be a function of the mind, or even, perhaps, the soul--it might be evidence of our spiritual natures. Certainly, the question of meaning is a particular perspective to take on life, but should we then regard it as a purely relative matter? I don't think so--I think it is a universal human problem. To put it another way: take what perspective you like, it will still show that we are in deep sh*t. Neville

Subject: Re: Meaning From: PatC To: Neville Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 14:01:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Our Meaning in Life by Richard Carrier Isn't life pointless? Why should the atheist bother? It's all just going to end anyway, right? How does the atheist's life have meaning? The mere fact that consciousness exists, that some person exists who can see and know and create and manifest everything good for others and find happiness in living, is the most astounding thing of all. It does not matter if it is brief, for merely the opportunity itself is priceless and our being here, to acknowledge it, to study it, to know it, and to love it, gives the universe meaning. If we did not exist at all, then the universe would indeed be pointless, but since it becomes meaningful the moment we come to know and appreciate it, our lives share in that meaning and become the most valuable thing that can ever exist. From a point of view outside of time, everything, past and present, exists eternally: our lives sit forever like pearls on a string of time. What we do with our life, what we make of it, how we enjoy it, can never be taken away. It becomes a part of what exists, adding to it's value, like gems in a purse. The sages have said it for millenia, and it is true. It really is love that is key: love of learning, love of doing, love of others, love of ideals, love of country or cause, anything, everything, is the foundation of meaning. If we lacked that, we would be miserable and our lives pointless even if we lived forever. Even if we droned on with praises for a supreme being in heaven for all eternity our existence would be superficial, trite, unsatisfying, and ultimately a torture. Thus, the key lies in finding your loves and pursuing them, manifesting that love in defiance of a universe that won't. What is worth loving? The potential of humanity, the power of reason, the comfort of another's love, the pursuit of knowledge and truth, the beauty and joy of human experience, and the nearly unlimited power of the human will to endure almost any hardship or solve almost any problem. And that is just the short list. How many wonderful people do we know, or could we know if we sought them out, who are worth loving, loving merely for the fact that we wished there were more of them in the world, and that they alone would give us a meaning to live? Even when I look at something magnificent in nature, the stars, the wilds, the musculature of a sea lion, the beauty of a nebula, I think to myself 'How fantastic!' How pointless that beauty would be if I didn't notice and appreciate it. How valuable I am because I can. Immortality is inconsequential in this equation. We have no ground to fear death, for death is the end of fear itself, and what is to fear in that? We live for only one reason: because we love life, all of it, any of it. And if it disappoints us that there is not enough happiness in the world, not enough goodness, we can contribute toward rectifying that, and that is what gives our lives meaning. The more good things we can create or teach and thus leave behind for others, the more lives we can light up with our company and companionship, the more precious our short existence will have been, and the more satisfied we will be that we used our bank account of life well, and thus deserved our measure. I have faced death on a few occasions, and yet I was always calm and accepting. On the one hand I knew I would no longer have any worries or pains when I no longer exist, and on the other hand I had lived a good life and done some small good, things that would never have been had I not existed at all, and my short span of knowing, enjoying, loving it all was well worth it. By making the universe that little bit brighter and more meaningful, my own life had value and meaning as a consequence. For those who want to know more about how one can be happy in the face of death, I always recommend Bertrand Russell's The Conquest of Happiness. It was written for a social climate that has changed somewhat, but the fundamental ideas are universal, and well-put. I also always recommend a twenty-four-hundred year old epistle that remains as poignant today as then: Epicurus' Letter to Menoeceus. Avid readers might consider a wealth of other things that might be worth looking up. E. D. Klemke has also compiled numerous essays on the subject in his book The Meaning of Life, and previous authors have also touched on the issue here on the Secular Web: see Keith Augustine's Death and the Meaning of Life, and James Still's Death Is Not an Event in Life (to which Christian critic Kevin D. Huddleston responded in Afterlife and Meaning). In addition to all this, on love I have written more myself, in Of Love, Brunettes, and Biology. And I have written more on the reasons to live a moral life in Does the Christian Theism Advocated by J.P. Moreland Provide a Better Reason to be Moral than Secular Humanism?. Others have recommended the essays of a man who really looked into the Abyss and addressed it more honestly and directly than any other: Albert Camus, especially The Myth of Sisyphus. But when you seem trapped by depression, you are probably as unwell as you would be with a dangerous flu, and the reaction should be the same: to seek medical help. The cure often requires a professional touch. Therapy can help you discover (or rediscover) what you love about life, and to come to terms with your fears. For example, an atheist, Dr. Albert Ellis, is the father of REBT (Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy) for the treatment of depression and other problems. On this matter, David Burns has written a book for the layman called Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy that comes highly recommended. However, sometimes the emotions that torture you are a chemical or other biological malfunction and thus need medications to correct, and thus professional diagnosis should always be sought when things get bad. If you feel you need a counsellor with a secular perspective, you can seek a referral through the American Humanist Association or the Humanist Society of Friends. But even as you seek help, also keep in mind home remedies that supplement the professional. Eat well and exercise. Take long walks in nice places. Take up a cause you feel good about and work to help others in some way that comes easily or comfortably to you, do any sort of good works. And above all, seek to maintain a happy, social interaction with other people. Studies have proven that people with a cause they care about and who have even a small but enriching social life live longer, happier, and healthier, and if it's good for your health it's good for your mind. For I can summarize all of this in one sentence: a healthy mind in a healthy body, pursuing and manifesting what it loves, is the meaning of life.

Subject: Re: Meaning From: Robyn To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 18:24:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'It really is love that is key: love of learning, love of doing, love of others, love of ideals, love of country or cause, anything, everything, is the foundation of meaning. If we lacked that, we would be miserable and our lives pointless even if we lived forever.' This is beautiful Pat. I know you can't be just who you are here but this has become so forgien from the PatC I know of here. How does that mean spirt fit into this. No one is perfect. I know. Love, Robyn

Subject: I've been meaning to talk to you, Robyn From: PatC To: Robyn Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 19:10:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, that essay by Richard Carrier is great. Now, let's talk. When you and I first met, we got on well because we did not know each other well and yet had a few things in common. Then we hardly talked at all for over a year because you seldom posted here. I don't know if you have read the things I posted during the past year. If you think that I have suddenly changed from being the friendly person you first met into someone who is ''mean spirited'' you are mistaken. In the past month or so, since I chastised you for attacking Jim (a highly respected and well-loved contributor to the forum) in defense of Quiet (a silly anonymous malicious troll) I have watched your behavior on the forums and observed that you are only here to socialize. You seldom know what is really going on and seldom actually seem to read anything other than chitchat. There's nothing wrong with chitchat but that's not all that's happening here. I'm not going to explain my behavior to you let alone try to make excuses for it. I don't think I need to make excuses for what you perceive as ''mean spiritedness.'' I know that I was simply being blunt and honest but I was also aware of a lot more than you were. I'm here because I share the same distaste for Rawatism (and other New Age nonsense) as Jim, Nigel, Moley, Patrick W, Marianne, Cynthia and a host of oldies and newbies. You seem to be here to chat with anyone who is ''nice'' to you. Those are such disparate agendas that I doubt if you and I will ever see eye to eye about our involvment on the expremie forums. In fact I think there's a lot of stuff you and I would not see eye to eye about. That doesn't mean that I don't think well of you or won't be kind to you. But kindness can be very misplaced when it is simply strewn everywhere indiscriminately as I think you would wish it were. I don't care what your history with Jim is. The fact is that he and I agree about how to use our time here in this little cyber-world. Your agenda here doesn't bother me. It's just that I don't simply like ''killing time'' on the net but prefer to stick to the subject which is to discredit not only Rawat but all that Hindu mumbo-jumbo. When you attacked Jim you basically attacked the purpose of my presence here. PS I enjoyed your description on LG of having darshan and how that drove you away from the cult when you saw that Rawat's eyes displayed only boredom and annoyance or something like that.

Subject: Robyn misunderstood From: Marianne To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 19:54:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat and Robyn: Of course I cannot speak for Robyn. But I do know her in person and in ways that others here do not. I also know Pat and his family. I do not think Robyn has an agenda. She's a caring person who has tried to stay above the fray in my opinion. She is a good and strong person who has had her share of difficult and demanding experiences in her life, with her family. It seems to me that those experiences, like the rest of us, inform her reactions here and on other forums. She is my valued friend. My history with her is a good and positive one, and I am glad to call her my friend. Marianne

Subject: Re: Robyn misunderstood From: Robyn To: Marianne Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 04:06:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Marianne, Thank you, your post brought a tear to my eyes. Ditto. :) Pat, Maybe I did ask how you reconcile your mean spiritedness to your post above. I really meant to point it out to you to consider. You see I really try to LIVE my LIFE by those words and that means here and there, everywere. Wether it is easy or hard or wether I am happy or annoyed with someone's post I read. No excuses. I am far from perfect but that is what I strive for. I don't wish you ill either but I am extreemly leary of you and am relieved that I never had the time to open up to you in the past, which I meant to do in email. I have had a very intense few years. Things are improving and settling down and I can even say that the worst thing I ever faced in my life has turned around to be almost a blessing a year later. All of these things in my life have kept me from contributing what you think of as valuable posts on my part and have also kept me from reading all of your or anyones posts here still I keep some sort of connection to the people on these forums. They have been some part of my life for 5 or so years. Belive it or not I do have substance, I am just doing something about my cause which is not m, in my physical life which also takes a lot of time. So I am also kind. Too me that is a plus. Love, Robyn

Subject: Sorry, Robyn From: PatC To: Robyn Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 10:15:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How can you waste time (yes I value my time) blowing air kisses and talking trivial nonsense to Mili, Catweasel and the other anonymous trolls on LG knowing full well that these people either did or know who is responsible for CAC and meanwhile you attack Jim and me defending them? As I said - you may be nice but you're naive. You said: ''I am just doing something about my cause which is not m...'' If discrediting M and K is not your cause, perhaps you could explain what it is that you are doing on the forums because it sure seems like all you really want is to chat and socialize with anyone who is nice to you. Well, those cultweasels that you're chatting to are fakes and actually vicious if you only took the time to look at what they have done to disrupt the forum and attack new posters and spread disinformation and cult propaganda. You may not realize this but, by cozying up to them, you are in fact giving them credence and undercutting everything that I stand for. How can you bear to keep such unethical company as those cult apologists? As long as you're chumming around with people who have done nothing but play games and tell lies on the forum, I can't respect you. Sorry. Of course I'm also sorry to hear that you have been living through difficult times but none of us are immune to troubles.

Subject: Re: Sorry, Robyn From: Robyn To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 14:48:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, If I am a waste of your time then why do you spy on my posts and report back to Jim and try to tell me what to do and how to live my life. You'd save hours right there. Not only have those people never wronged me or been cruel to me but you have been vicious to me but to others also, as I mentioned before and then say your sorry, not to me of course and excuse your behavior because you were drinking, whatever. I find that type of behavior untrustworthy for myself. I don't know anything about CAC full well at all and how in god's name could I know that if they didn't have anything to do with it that they know who did? Maybe I am naive although a lot less over the years but I would rather stick to my own beliefs, that love is the key, and be burned a few times but get someplace I want to be eventually and be able, still to respect myself and my methods. I am honest with premies about my feelings about m & k. I don't try to please them with my thoughts and they don't tell me what to do. I have many, many, ex-premie friends also. I didn't have a bad time in the cult and although I support the truth being there for its own sake and though I learned a lot from the information available, it is not and never has been my main focus. I have learned a lot about people in general and myself in particular writing here and I don't apologize for that to you or anyone. If I am so horrid then lable me a troll and block me. Different stokes for different folks. I won't waste anymore of your time and please don't waste anymore of yours by spying on me or trying to get me to live my life according to your rules for me. I am more then sure you'd feel the same about my possible rules for your life, right? Robyn

Subject: Your over-reacting, Robyn From: PatC To: Robyn Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 15:55:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You: ''If I am so horrid then lable me a troll and block me.'' Who said you were horrid? Not me. I said you were nice but naive. You're over-reacting in an emotional way and putting words in my mouth. Sorry I only label real idiots as trolls. You don't quite fit the job description. And I only block malicious disruptors. Again you don't qualify. You definitely are a decent person which is why I am bothering to sort things out with you. If I thought you were unethical and deceitful I would not be bothering to talk to you. You again: ''If I am a waste of your time then why do you spy on my posts and report back to Jim and try to tell me what to do and how to live my life. You'd save hours right there.'' Again you are twisting my words either deliberately out of passive-aggressiveness or you really are not paying attention to what I said. Nowhere did I say you were a waste of my time. I said I was not here to waste my time chatting to cult apologists as you are. You may not be wasting your time for all I know. Perhaps you don't have anything better to do than blow kisses at cultweasels. I don't spy on you. I read every single post on all the forums. I find everything about expremies fascinating including you. I reported what you said back to Jim because he cannot read what you post on LG as he is banned and you were talking about him behind his back. I'm not telling you what to do or how to live your life. Once again you are putting words in my mouth. I don't care what you do here but don't expect me to keep my mouth shut if what you do here affects my credibility or purpose. I don't care that you cuddle up with cultweasels. That's fine by me except when it affects me as your defense of Quiet did. (It led to the entire Debacle.) My only beef with you so far is that you seem to be fuzzy thinking, bear grudges against Jim which none of newbies understand, attack him and then me because I agreed with him. You admit that you don't know everything that is going on (you know nothing about CAC - ask Marianne) and yet you came out of left field attacking Jim and then me because we were questioning a malicious troll. If you examine how that led to this, you will see that you were wrong to butt in but you have not yet apologised. If you simply apologised for poking your nose into something that you knew nothing about and using it as an opportunity to get in a silly dig at Jim for supposed past grievances, I would accept it and you can go back to chatting with Mili on LG without any criticism from me. Also it would help if you stopped making up stuff about Jim outing exes on LG, that would help too. Or better yet - why don't you just spell out your objections to Jim so that us newbies can understand where you're coming from. Getting in digs at him with the cultweasels on LG doesn't make you look nearly as good as you claim to be. Am I right in suspecting that a lot of your current view of me is colored by the fact I do not like your friends such as Selene, Salam, Deb, Mili et al?

Subject: Give me a break From: Jim To: Robyn Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 08:12:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Blubber blubber blubber You attacked me for nothing re that stupid troll Quiet, you never apologized, you sidled up with that completely viscious, little nutcase, Deborah, when she started slamming the forum and now you're bleating about what a good person you are, blah blah, blah ...... What a joke!

Subject: Re: Give me a break From: Robyn To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 14:59:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are an idiot! I never attacked you!!! You are so thick, hopeless. I warned someone I didn't know about opening up to you, something I'd do for anyone. I did nothing wrong so why would I apologize? I haven't sidled up to anyone you fool. What is wrong with you? You are wacked yourself! You think because you say something endlessly that it will make it true or make you believe it is true or maybe others who read you and don't know about the situation themselves? You are acting like my youngest did when she was 12, she is turning out well though so hang on, maybe there is hope for you yet!

Subject: Re: Give me a break From: Jim To: Robyn Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 16:37:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Robyn, OF COURSE you attacked me! It happened on AG where I was, once again, trying to explain to Quiet why some of us who'd bothered to try to communicate with him were of the mind that he was untrustworthy. That's when you burst in like a screaming banshee warning him not to 'open up' to me because, as you put it, I had outed many people before, was simply untrustworthy and -- now I may be wrong about this and the post, hell, the forum isn't there to check any longer -- I was simply a 'bad person' to boot. And you think that because you were saying that to Quiet, not me, you weren't attacking me? How precious. As for 'sidling up', well, Robyn, do you know what I meant by that? Perhaps not. 'Sidle' in this context means: to go or move with one side foremost especially in a furtive advance I couldn't say it any better than Pat has. Read his posts. He's completely right. THINK for a change, Robyn.

Subject: Thanks, you response to Jim tells me From: PatC To: Robyn Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 16:25:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ........everything I need to know. You definitely don't like Jim. Fine by me although I am curious about how you became so prejudiced against him. So prejudiced that you told an anonymous troll (whom you admit that you did not know) not to open up to Jim. Jim was trying to get the truth out of Quiet and you in effect told Quiet not to be honest with Jim and thereby encouraged him to continue dissembling. Telling someone you have never met before to distrust Jim and to continue deceiving him because you don't like Jim is no insignificant act. You must really hate Jim to do that. I can't understand why because I have not seen Jim say anything bad to you since I have been here. So, it must have happened a long time ago before my time. Does it have something to do with your friendship with Katie and Katie's dislike of Jim or did Jim say something nasty to you personally? Judging by how you over-reacted to and twisted the words in my post to you, I wonder if you have also misunderstood something that Jim once said. I can't understand your anitpathy to him. He is blunt-spoken, yes, but he is also sincere, honest and very conscientious. I would really like to know what caused you to hate Jim. Please explain.

Subject: Re: Robyn misunderstood From: PatC To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 20:23:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree, Marianne. She was not around when Quiet first turned up and had no idea why Jim and I were suspicious of him. But she did poke her nice nose into it and got it put slightly out of joint. No big deal - we all get humbled here occassionally. I know Robyn is nice but she is also naive. I'm sure she would not be as nice to Pat Robertson (and other ignorant fundamentalist christians who thought that her daughter was a sinner) as she is to Quiet, Catweasel and all the other cult apologists who have disrupted and spread disinformation on these forums.

Subject: Alright! I love that stuff! From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 21:49:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Far out, Dog! I was just reading up on Theravada Buddhism myself today. What a coincidence. Here's something you might be interested in. Pretty well has all the concepts in one, simple place. For beginners, I guess: IS THERAVADA BUDDHISM FOR ARAHANTSHIP ONLY? By U Silananda Although Theravada Buddhism is known more widely than before nowadays, there are still some misunderstandings concerning it. There are still people who believe and say (or rather write) that Theravada is for Arahantship only. Before we talk about this subject, we must understand the meaning of the word arahant. According to Theravada Buddhist teachings, an arahant is a person who has reached the fourth and highest stage of enlightenment. All those who have reached this stage are called arahants, worthy ones. Worthy of what? Worthy of accepting gifts from devotees, because gifts made to those persons bring abundant results. According to this definition, all those who have reached this stage, both disciples and Buddhas (and Pacceka-Buddhas also), are called arahants. There are numerous places in the Pali Canon where the Buddha is referred to as arahant, see for instance the formula of homage which Buddhists say everyday: 'Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammasambuddhassa!'; observe also the statement in the Mahavagga of Vinaya Pitaka, 'There are now six arahants in the world', i.e., the five first disciples and the Buddha. But arahant is also used to refer to the disciples only, and it is in this sense that the word arahant is used hereafter in this article. According to Theravada teachings, there are three kinds of beings who have reached the fourth stage of enlightenment: Buddhas, Pacceka-Buddhas, and Arahants. Arahants are also called Savakas or Disciples; they are subdivided into Aggasavaka (the Best Disciples), Mahasavaka (the Great Disciples) and Pakatisavaka (the Ordinary Disciples). All of these beings are enlightened persons, but their quality of enlightenment differs from one another. The enlightenment of the Buddhas is the best, that of Pacceka-Buddhas is inferior to the enlightenment of the Buddhas, but is superior to the enlightenment of the Arahants, and the enlightenment of the Arahants is the lowest of them all. Buddhas can ‘save’ many beings, or rather they can help many beings ‘save’ themselves by giving them instructions, but Pacceka-Buddhas do not ‘save’ beings because they are solitary Buddhas and do not teach as a rule. The Arahants can and do ‘save’'beings, but not as many beings as Buddhas do. And the time required for the maturity of the qualities of these beings differ greatly. To become a Buddha, one has to fulfill the Paramis (necessary qualities for becoming a Buddha) for four, eight or sixteen Incalculables and 100,000 worlds cycles; but for a Pacceka-Buddha the time is only two Incalculables and 100,000 world cycles. Among the Disciples, for an Aggasavaka, the time required is one Incalculable and 100,000 world cycles, while for a Mahasavaka, it is only 100,000. But for the Pakatisavaka, it may be just one life, or a hundred lives, or a thousand lives, or more. It is important to note that once a person becomes an arahant, he will not become a Buddha in that life; and since there is no more rebirth for him, he will not become a Buddha in the future either. In Theravada Buddhism one is not forced to follow the path to Buddhahood only, but is given a choice from among the paths mentioned above. So a Theravada Buddhist can aspire for and eventually reach Buddhahood; indeed he must be determined to fulfill the Paramis for the long, long time required for the fulfillment of Buddhahood. Or if he so desires, he may aspire for Pacceka-Buddhahood, or one of the states of Arahantship and suffer in the round of rebirths for the time required for his particular choice of the path accumulating the necessary Paramis and ‘save’ as many beings as they can. So a Theravada Buddhist is free to choose what suits his willingness to go through the round of rebirths and suffering. In brief, a Theravada Buddhist can become a Buddha, or a Pacceka-Buddha, or an Arahant according to his choice. So Theravada Buddhism is for all three paths and not for the path to Arahantship only. Here comes another question: If a Theravada Buddhist can choose any path, why is the attainment of Arahantship so much talked about in Theravada Buddhism? It is because only very few can become Buddhas. As you know (if you have read so far, of course), an aspirant for Buddhahood has to undergo a lot of suffering for a long, long time in the round of rebirths making sacrifices no other being even dreams of; and there can be only one Buddha at a time in the whole world, so that the appearance of a Buddha is very, very rare. Therefore, for every being to aspire for Buddhahood is impractical; it would be like all native citizens of the United States trying to become a President of the United States. Moreover, the purpose of becoming a Buddha is to ‘save’ beings or ‘help beings save themselves.’ But if everybody were to become a Buddha, there would be no beings for a Buddha to ‘save’–please note that Buddhas do not need any instructions from anybody–and so the original purpose would not be served. On the contrary, to become an Arahant is very practical, and millions of beings attained Arahantship during the time of a Buddha. That is why, in Theravada Buddhism, beings are encouraged to try to become Arahants which is practical rather than to become Buddhas which is not so. But as stated before, beings are given freedom to follow the path of their choice in their endeavor for attainment of enlightenment. After all, what is important for all beings is to get free from suffering in the round of rebirths no matter which path they choose. Still another question: Are there Theravada Buddhists who aspire for Buddhahood? We are glad to answer in the affirmative. But since not many of them are on record, we cannot say how many. At least there was a king in Myanmar during the Pagan Period who built a pagoda and dedicated it to the Dispensation of the Buddha. In that pagoda he left an inscription where he clearly declared his aspiration for Buddhahood; and almost all kings of ancient Myanmar considered themselves to be aspirants for Buddhahood. There are also authors of religious books, mostly monks, who mentioned their aspiration for Buddhahood at the end of their books. So, we can say that there are not a few Theravada Buddhists who aspire for Buddhahood. Actually, it seems a little complicated. But, hell, that doesn't mean I don't love it! :)

Subject: I wanna be a Buddha!!! From: Dermot To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 22:21:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In brief, a Theravada Buddhist can become a Buddha, or a Pacceka-Buddha, or an Arahant according to his choice. No second or third best for me thanks..... Do you think in 2 or 3 thousand years time (a few thou years is always good for the resume) 'Dermotism' will be a major world religion? Well, if i start inventing some complicated theories and various paths to follow but also offer some simple med techniques too, then it should be a synch. Anyone here want to be a part of my Sangha? I warn you now though I'm a complete spiritual bullshitter.That's your last warning! From now on I just talk the business...... LIFE, DEATH AND PERFECT ATTAINMENT BY LORD DERMOT (2000 AD) Dear struggling human souls......especially those with Visa/MC/Amex. ............................................... Just goofing.....no offence to the spirtitually inclined:)

Subject: It's a good night for it ,D..! From: AV To: Dermot Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:03:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: TONIGHT: The full moon, Vaisaiki, festival of Lord B's birth and enlightenment, you synchronous little thing! :)

Subject: I know, I know... From: Dermot To: AV Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:27:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Once you reach my level of attainment things just automatically fall in place....It's like the Grace of the Universe just flows through me....no more cycles of birth and death or any of that boring shit.... ...wanna get involved AV? (Repeat: all major credit cards accepted) :)

Subject: Re: I know, I know... From: AV To: Dermot Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 14:37:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know, I really FEEEL how you are just come from, like, that place, and it's like, so amazing that we all have this incredible opportunity to just , like, well, understand means, like , to stand under, geddit?, so, like, that bliss can just flow into my empty cup, because , its like, that MIND has just keeps taking us all away from that simplicity, and If we all just let go, yeah! that's it!! just really let go of all that STUFF, then it's like, that holy vibration which has like ,created this whole universe, and God too!!!, because it's like is says in the Gita....(((((((((KKKKRRRRUUUNNNCCCHHHHHH)))))))..... tick .. tock .. tick .. tock .. tick...........

Subject: Dermotism? Is that a skin disease? :) [nt] From: JHB To: Dermot Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 22:59:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Used to be..I've REVISED it now:) [nt] From: Dermot To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:14:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: This was in response to your earlier post From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 22:19:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As I said in my earlier post, this guy Silananda is full of shit and you are a coward because you won't do The Landmark Forum. Too bad you are too yella to take the The Landmark Forum. Now that's Theravada Buddhism for beginners. No, you'd rather spend your time hanging out on a beach in Costa Rica than exploring human consciousness. Too bad! You rather stay down in one little corner of life where you can play it safe.

Subject: Us Bbuddhas don't need Landmark Forums, Dep :) [nt] From: Dermot To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 22:27:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Why I won't take Landmark Forum seriously From: Jim To: Dermot Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 20:55:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1) It won't explain in clear terms what it offers. 2) It won't explain in clear terms how it works. 3) It won't explain in clear terms how it has the authority to teach what it supposedly offers. 4) The test of success is so nebulous it just cries out for some test to screen out suggestibility (Did you get the big hit? Did you? Did you really??). Wake up, Dog.

Subject: Jim, did you know that Werner knew... From: la-ex To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 08:56:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the secret to the universe? A friend of mine took EST, back in the early 70's, when Werner Erhard was teaching the trainings by himself. After an excruciating 4 day training in which my friend had to endure: 1)staring at a 50 foot photo of Werner in front of the stage all weekend long... 2)no bathroom breaks.. 3)being called an 'asshole' all weekend long... He was told that at the end of the training, that Werner himself would tell everyone the secret 'meaning of life'... Of course, everyone waited anxiously until the final moment... At the end, Werner proceded to go up to each individual participant in the auditorium and whisper 'the secret meaning to life' in each persons ear. The secret was: THERE IS NO SECRET! And that was it.....they 'go it'....

Subject: The Landmark Forum, a Testimony... From: Cynthia To: la-ex Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 10:33:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Landmark Forum is another cult. It's listed on the Rick Ross website (link above). Here's an interesting story from a woman who attended. There's lot's of information on the Ross site about EST and Landmark. I left after the second day www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark37.html

Subject: Cynthis, someone always walks out From: Dep To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 14:47:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: . . . but 70% of participants say it was one of the most valuable experiences of their lives. Not bad for $350!

Subject: Re: Cynthis, someone always walks out From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 09:38:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, It's $350 for the first round. Then if you want to go further it costs more and more and more. If you don't 'get it' the first time you can pay another $350 and do the same thing over. I don't believe that mass or large group therapies of this type are healthy for anyone. I read a lot about these types of enterprises and my first and last response and impulse is 'run away as fast as you can.' There's no panacea to life's problems, Dep, whether or not you pay for it in cash. Anyone who tries to tell you they can instantly fix you, repair you, ask for 'confessions,' restrain you through fear, keep you for hours in a room with little or few breaks, tries to reframe your thinking processes with loaded language is a cult and has ulterior motives. That's not just my opinion but the also the opinion of many experts on cults after examining the effects of mass therapy groups. Why do you need someone else to validate the Landmark Forum for you? This organization has it's roots in EST. I can't condone it. I reject it outright. And some of those who left before the entire program's end have reported serious detrimental emotional and mental side effects. My stomach tightens just thinking about the training (it wasn't Landmark) I went through several years ago. It was a horrible experience and I didn't walk out. The only reason I didn't walk out is because I was afraid to because it was sponsored by my new employer at the time. I don't know what you are searching for Dep, but don't lay it on me. My red flags are waving high on this one and no thank you. If you are having difficulty leaving the Maharajism cult, why look to another cult? Do you really believe you need to be repaired by strangers? That $350 would be better spent, IMO, by finding a reputable, licensed cult exit counselor, Dep, because you do sound confused and unable to accept your life outside of the Maharaji cult. I'm sorry if I sound so blunt, but please don't bring this shit here as if it is innocent and harmless because it's not. I wish you well in your life, Dep, but I think you're still searching for something that doesn't exist. My only recommendation for you is to look at EPO, click on links and go the the reFocus website. There are many resources to help you understand why these groups are dangerous for your health, as well as resources for you to understand the dynamics of leaving a cult. You might want to consider reading Snapping by Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman. It's an eye opener. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964765004/ref%3Dase%5Frickross/104-4564986-6107114 Cynthia

Subject: To Cynthia. From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:20:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (((((((( SHIVER!!!! ))))))) I was invited to one of these....instinct smelled a rat ...Love to U AV

Subject: To AV...Good for you... From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:44:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: SHIVER is right! Good for you and your ''red flags!'' Love, Cynth

Subject: Stonor, I've been a Buddhist for about 7 years! [nt] From: Dep To: Stonor Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 22:22:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Prem Rrawat gets benefit of the doubt From: Dermot To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 20:41:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But not a 5 star rating:) I think this persons site has been put up here before....he keeps it's updated as Maharaji has been updated to Prem Rawat. Anyway, if you're searching for a new guru to deliver you from darkness to light...take your pick:) Divine Bullshitters www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/RatingsD.htm

Subject: Fantastic - check out this link! From: Disculta To: Dermot Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 21:49:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Dermot mate! This provided me with an hour of cracking up in front of my computer. I'm busy, but I keep clicking on more and more gurus... checkitout people

Subject: So many gurus, so little time. From: Richard To: Disculta Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 22:26:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Way guru-vy arti on the Sat Pal site. It's got that Goo-Goo Ju-Ju working, baby. Don't forget the words of Shri Postie: Just let Bhagwans be Bhagwans! and Any Pal of yours is a Pal of mine! Ananda Kanda Ki Jai! www.manavdharam.org/index.html

Subject: Re: So many gurus, so little time. From: AV To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 15:20:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just let Bhagwans be Bhagwans! very funny! new song for ex-es; 'I DID IT MAYA WAY' LOL, luvvit!! and as for swinging arti trays, remember, shri hans are better than one! :-)

Subject: Jeeeeezus Richard! From: Disculta To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:44:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a shock! I click on your link and this loud arti music appears in my room! Not being an MP3 person I have actually never heard music come out of my computer before. I almost fell to the floor in pranam, I was so surprised!

Subject: Re: Jeeeeezus Richard! From: Mahatma Coat To: Disculta Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 12:20:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ooooh, my dear Disculta Ji, you are be having the - how you say in West - ecstasy flashback. The door is always open back to the Satguru. It makes mahatma ji so totally blissing out to hear you are wanting to do pranam to Lotus Feet of Living Lord. Arti is arti and just a pretty song unless it is been singing to Balyogeshwar Sant Ji Maharaj. Oooops! My lovely assistant has been clicking my mouse to help me hear this arti and I am shocked to see imposter fake guru who pretends he is son of Shri Hans Ji Maharaj. Wait til I tell Sant Ji - he will just be freaking out. We all know there is only one Living Perfect Master and it isn't Sat Pal or this Jeeeezus Richard person either. Bhole shri satgurudev Maharaj Ki Jai!!! Mahatma Coat

Subject: I can't wait to follow his kid From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 22:56:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just looking at these guys you know they're thinking 'Boy, did I ever luck out!' www.manavdharam.org/news/photo_gallery/vaisakhi_2002/pages/vaisakhi_18.html

Subject: Dearest Morolyn aka ( Durga Ji) From: Bai Ji To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 18:00:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I must admit that when I first saw you , you were amongst one of the greatest attractions to my young mind. You had such a beautiful definition of M and I had such a Longing in my young life to persue all of the noble ideals that he portrayed. You were the epitomie of class and devotion and I respected you accordingly. Since my dissolution with all of this I would Dearly love to hear you input, as it was You who impressed me most with your devotion and integrity. I realise you are under a huge pressure to remain silent and I in no way wish to jeopardise you. Having said that please find a way to save us all from the hell thaT we now all endure , due to the "Code of silence"

Subject: Re: Dearest Marolyn aka ( Durga Ji) From: Bai Ji To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 16:06:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OOps, Sorry, don't know what happened to the rest of my post!

Subject: Re: Dearest Marolyn aka ( Durga Ji) From: Vicki To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 20:30:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, can you repost your thoughts? I was disappointed because this definitely struck a cord with me. I couldn't relate to the whole druggy early premie stage, or the Indian trip, but somehow Marolyn,as Durga Ji, made it seem okay. She glamorized Indian fashion and mannerisms, she brought chic to her Western wardrobe in comparison to the funkiness of the early seventies. I mean, it was an expensive class act the whole way. Her sincerity and radiance made him look good. She was like the moon reflecting the sun, as he alluded to many times about master and devotee. The stage act was great, it lent creadence to the whole circus. Face it, she and the kids made him look real good, but they always credited him, always had that deferring body language.

Subject: Excellent observation, Vicki From: PatC To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 01:46:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And I agree - I would like to hear the rest of Bai Ji's train of thought. How about it Bai Ji? What went wrong with your post was that you typed some of it into the ''Link Name'' field by mistake.

Subject: Re: Excellent observation, Vicki From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:07:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I first was introduced to M&K he was already married. The first movie I saw was the (can't remember the title) one made of their wedding, running on the beach, and holding Premlata. All the Hartford premies loaded up into cars and drove down to the New Haven Community who had the film. They played it over and over and over.... That was a very big attraction to me inasmuch as I saw him as a more 'normal' person being married and all. I also thought that Marolyn had much more class than Maharaji. I frequently wonder what she really feels now, so many years later, so much has happened since they married. Many gopi's were so envious of Marolyn's position, married to the Lord. I know one premie (my sister) who was excessively jealous and could never understand 'why her and not me.' My sister is very beautiful, tall and blonde. Whenever I talk to her now I try to gently say that she's lucky it wasn't her who ''got'' to marry HIM.

Subject: The Wedding From: PatD To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 12:16:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was a major 'test' for me. I couldn't believe that a guru could get married,& particularly hated the ultra low rent ruffled shirt he wore with his dinner suit.I guess I put it all down to a lila beyond my understanding,& a lesson in not being so snobbish...something like that. I did see the incongruity of myself(celibate)watching a film of the incarnation running along a beach,with his wife's tits bouncing in slo-mo,but dismissed it as mind. The hook was,& always has been,the'experience which only he can give'.Everything he has ever done to suit himself(that's everything),may make him superficially more attractive to a different group of people than the saps previously ensnared,but the bottom line is now as ever. ME ME ME ...love me....YOU YOU YOU...fuck you. As for Marolyn,I don't suppose she feels too much beyond the deep pile carpet beneath her feet.

Subject: I still have the movie From: Vicki To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 13:21:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: somewhere or another. The case cracked and I never did get around to having it put in another one, but the footage is still clear.

Subject: that movie is a treasure From: Susan To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 20:09:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Save it, if there is any way to get a copy to Jim or to an ex who would know how to make it into something we could clip here a play a clip. That movie deeply entrenched me too. The new baby, see her Premlata. Yes, at least back then the wife and kids outshown him like a thousand suns. The cult might have shiveled without them.

Subject: Make a video! From: Jim To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 19:52:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vicki, I need to see that slow motion stuff again. Got to work something out my system. :)

Subject: Re: Make a video! From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 20:02:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, what the hell was the name of that thing? It's title escapes me at the moment. Preserving on video would be good.

Subject: was that it (nt) From: 'Family of Love' To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 20:13:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Knowledge Resource Center From: Marshall To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:54:08 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Hi Everyone, Here is something I came across on my mom's computer that I thought might be of interest. Note all the increased opportunities for 'participation', especially financial participation. As always, a big push for money, but... 'knowledge is free!' and 'Maharaji never asks for money!' hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!! Knowledge Resource Center Mailing address: 11664 National Blvd., Suite 325 Los Angeles, CA 90064 Many of you requested that we send a summary of what was covered on the conference calls we had with Ira Woods as guest speaker, on March 1 and March 4, 2002. These are the topics that were covered and a brief summary of the information given: Latest Local Developments City Contact Eve Hollander spoke about the fact that since Elan Vital downsized, we were no longer connected with them financially as in the past, and had to organize in some way for legal and financial purposes. We were advised to form an Unincorporated Association and the local Westside team chose the name Knowledge Resource Center, which is now legally our operating name. This enabled us to get an IRS Social Security number and a bank account under this name. This change also meant that local expenses for continuing to provide local events have been greatly increased. In addition to the cost of renting the room at the hotel for the weekly satellite broadcasts, some of these other additional expenses are: 1) Liability Insurance that had to be purchased (to protect us in case a volunteer or guest at an event should become injured and sue us) at a cost of $900.00 per year. which was purchased through the generous loan of a team member, whom we pay-back monthly; 2) Paying all mailing and other communication expenses; 3) Paying a share monthly for area-wide expenses to maintain the phone line and storage of equipment used at large events. The hope was expressed that we could even increase the number of aspirant and introductory events we offer, and that support for this was needed both financially and in volunteering time. For more information on financial and/or participation opportunities, you’re welcome to contact Eve Hollander at 818-341-6379. Propagation-related Activities in the Westside Area Eduardo Guinzburg, who is our Aspirant Contact in this area spoke about how the Aspirant and Introductory events are offered to provide information and help Aspirants and those preparing for Knowledge grow in their experience. He then mentioned that from time to time we also organize Practice Sessions for those who have recently received Knowledge. Eduardo presented the following statistics about how many people received Knowledge specifically from this area: From 1997-1999, a total of 12 people; in 2000, 6 people; and in 2001, 14 people. As far as attendance goes, we were excited to learn that over the last 12 months 71 people were introduced and 67 interested people attended our local video and satellite events. Therefore, propagation is definitely on the rise on the Westside. Currently, there are 25 Aspirants in this area alone, and the hope was also expressed that we would be able to offer more events for them and for those whom we would introduce to Maharaji’s message, so that eventually more and more people could get ready for receiving the gift of Knowledge. Ira Woods Ira Woods then spoke, expressing that he knew there were a lot of new things happening “behind the scenes” and although he hasn’t heard about it yet, he has all the information he needs at this time which is that Maharaji has a passion to do something and we can watch it unfold. He expressed that Knowledge is not an institution, not an organization, but has Maharaji, who understands it, can impart it, and can help anyone to connect to it. Ira expressed that we all need to recognize that Maharaji does not need to offer Knowledge at all – has no contract to do this – but does it because he wants to. And, although Maharaji’s way may change from moment-to-moment, the techniques of Knowledge have not changed, nor has the fact that this experience is between each individual person and Maharaji. Opportunities for Local Participation Scott Polenz, who is a member of the Knowledge Resource Center team, then spoke about local participation. He expressed that there were numerous opportunities now for people to volunteer and support events on the local level. He spoke about the increased need for financial support now that we are independent, and could be made: 1) Directly at the satellite or special events by cash, check, or money order; 2) By mailing checks or money orders to the Knowledge Resource Center address (above); 3) and by arranging for credit card or automatic withdrawal payments. He then spoke about participation and the fact that there is an increased need for volunteers now. He stressed that the time anyone would want to offer can be as little or as much as they are able to offer and that some can be done from home, such helping maintain our mailing list database and other computer-related projects. Scott then extended a warm welcome to anyone who would like to participate with us in being able to offer more special events. For more information on financial and/or participation opportunities, you’re welcome to contact Eve Hollander at 818-341-6379. Upcoming Events Scott mentioned two local area events: Aspirant Event with Sherry Weinstein – March 6, 2002 Update: At this event. 35 attended, including 5 Aspirants and 3 interested people. Introductory Program with a Guest Speaker -- March 16, 2002 – 7:00 p.m. Scherr Forum Theatre, 2100 Thousand Oaks Blvd. / Thousand Oaks To Help Financially Support The Knowledge Resource Center Please mail check or money order to KNOWLEDGE RESOURCE CENTER mailing address: 11664 NATIONAL BLVD. / SUITE 325 LOS ANGELES, CA 90064 Your support is greatly appreciated

Subject: Re: Knowledge Resource Center From: Blondie To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 14:57:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What the hell are they Insuring against, $900 buys a lot of cover - or do the premiums include provision for being sued for psychological harm ?

Subject: $900 buys a lot of cover From: AV To: Blondie Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:26:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: really! I had to get PLI one time, it was about 25 bucks on top of my norm. and covered up to 2 mill! S'funny, the money thing never really got to me personally, but as I experienced progressive difficulties with practice / relating etc over the last 10 years, I started to notice that the ONLY communication I ever got from EV related to money: tax free donations blah blah blah.. nothing about help / support / integration.....just money money money. weird that I never really noticed it in that way before...I always assumed they were desperate and strapped for cash... but you would have thought once in a while the topic would change to: 'if any of you folks out there are having a tough time, we are organising a relaxed and informal retreat with..........to give you an opportunity to open up and let us know how we can help with your progress in K'.....or some such. I guess it was always assumed that an endless one way diet of vids and the occaisional program (soo sorry, event!)should have been all we needed. there more distance I allow myself to look at this whole trip, the more totally bizarre it appears, but whatever meditation was supposed to do for me thru' all those years, I do feel a great sense of natural peace coming back into my life, and the awareness of the gentle energy within the breath comes as a pleasant and welcome guest,rather than an uptight and forced discipline that gave me most days a headache.

Subject: Re: Knowledge Resource Center From: Cynthia To: Blondie Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 15:00:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just thinking that $900.00 doesn't by a lot of coverage at all. It sounds pretty inexpensive to say the least. And I am an former insurance woman. I would doubt that the Knowledge Resource Center has reported sexual or psychological or spiritual abuse to be included as part of their liability coverage. ;) Ummmm...it is a cult, after all. Cynthia

Subject: Re: Knowledge Resource Center From: Blondie (got that wrong then) To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 15:05:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I stand corrected. Was going by UK rates, obviously a different world.

Subject: responsibility From: david prothero To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 11:27:32 (PDT) Email Address: david.prothero@virgin.net Message: this is all rubbish-whether or not maharaji is a trickster,we are responsible for our own lives,and to blame a fraudster for our own misjudgment is not acknowledging the real cause of our condition-the gazelle that isnt wary enough gets eaten,and if we have been eaten, it is not the lion that is to blame-the whole web site is an exercise in blaming something other than ourselves for our own lack of discernment. As a pilot,I know that my mistakes are mine alone-any other attitude makes me at best a victim, and at worst,dead!

Subject: I suppose... From: AJW To: david prothero Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 03:56:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this is all rubbish-whether or not maharaji is a trickster,we are responsible for our own lives,and to blame a fraudster for our own misjudgment is not acknowledging the real cause of our condition-the gazelle that isnt wary enough gets eaten,and if we have been eaten, it is not the lion that is to blame-the whole web site is an exercise in blaming something other than ourselves for our own lack of discernment. As a pilot,I know that my mistakes are mine alone-any other attitude makes me at best a victim, and at worst,dead! --- Hi, Do you think if somebody gets robbed on the street it is their fault for not avoidng the mugger? Do you think that victims of crime are all responsible for their condition, and that the criminals are completely blameless? Get real pal. If someone goes around cheating, lying and conning people, the person committing these acts should take some of the blame, not just the victims. Anth, victim of society.

Subject: Re: responsibility From: AV To: david prothero Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:43:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yeah, but a pilot under instruction has to trust that the flying instructors have impeccable credentials....everything has to be done by the book, then there are no mistakes, no need for blame, and people qualify as safe and reliable pilots. I am suprised that ,as a pilot,your comments are so short sighted....you know where your trust has to be before you're allowed to go solo.

Subject: Re: responsibility From: Bolly Shri To: david prothero Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 06:42:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As a pilot? I thought you were a dentist. A lot of people going into DLM were less self assured than you were then or ever. In the time I knew you self doubt was never a major feature of your take on life. Thinking about it I'm surprised you were ever sucked into it at all. I'm writing this on the assumption that you are Dave the dentist formerly of Camden Town and Balham. Have a good day

Subject: A flying dentist? - not NT From: PatC To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 10:37:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please, Bolli, you are making it very hard for me to stop posting. :P

Subject: A flying dentist? just filling in! From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:05:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: - or his crowning achievement? From: cq To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 04:15:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: which for some dotty reason reminds me of these famous non-compliments: 'your teeth are like stars - they come out at night' 'when I look into your eyes, time seems to stand still' (or rather: 'you've got a face that would stop a clock') ;) and one more groaner: - Did you hear about the Buddhist who refused his dentist's Novocain during root canal work? He wanted to transcend dental medication.

Subject: Big Groan.... From: Cynthia To: cq Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:46:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and a laugh!

Subject: Re: an amalgam of both? From: AV To: cq Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 07:59:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: To cap it all ... From: cq To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 09:59:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A colleague at work is getting married soon, so I sent him these timely reminders: REMEMBER: A woman has the last word in any argument. Anything a man says after that is the beginning of a new argument. A woman worries about the future until she gets a husband. A man never worries about the future until he gets a wife. Men are like fine wine. They start out as grapes. It's a woman's job to stomp on them and then keep them in the dark until they mature. Then hopefully they'll turn out to be something a woman would like to have dinner with. Any married man should forget his mistakes. There's no point in two people remembering the same thing. Q. What is the difference between men & women? A. A woman wants one man to satisfy her every need. But a man wants every woman to satisfy his one need!

Subject: Re: Wisdom, by gum! From: AV To: cq Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 14:46:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: have you read 'Men stand in Bars, while Women Shop in Tescos' ?, by the same author of the new anti- cheap GM meat campaign; 'a shilling for ham that blinds you'

Subject: A bridge to nowhere! From: Richard To: AV Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 08:51:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You look down in the mouth so brace yourself for this one, I can't retain myself . . . It's sort of kind of like That Special Filling you know?

Subject: above not NT :C) [nt] From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 11:20:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Of course it's all rubbish From: Sir Dave To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 20:27:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but you've pretty much admitted in your post that Maharaji is a trickster. .. Dave

Subject: You make no sense... From: Cynthia To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 14:55:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I could pick apart every sentence in your post but I won't waste my time on you.

Subject: Are you the Lord's co-pilot? (nt) From: Inside Edition To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:32:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What an idiot you are From: Marshall To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:22:55 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: I feel sorry for your family, if you have one. Your philosophy(?) makes me ill. I don't understand people like you, thank god. Why do some people insist on blaming the victim?

Subject: Pilot culture doesn't impress me. From: Bryn To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:17:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry David, Taxi driver, stripper, social worker.. fine. But not another cocky pilot please. I mean why do they always have to work it into the conversation. Congratulations on your occupation. Now what about your state of mind? Love Bryn

Subject: Alert! Very scary attitude! From: Pat W To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:52:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's an afterthought. Our esteemed pilot friend says ; 'whether or not maharaji is a trickster,we are responsible for our own lives,and to blame a fraudster for our own misjudgment is not acknowledging the real cause of our condition-the gazelle that isnt wary enough gets eaten,and if we have been eaten, it is not the lion that is to blame' Of course the Lion is to blame for the Gazelles death. If Gazelles had the chance, the first thing they'd do is punish that rotten old Lion for taking advantage of their naive little babies. Also can you think of any society on earth where fraudsters are NOT brought to justice because their abusive behaviour is considered natural and therefore tolerable? Can you see how your metaphor, which clearly casts Maharaji as the Lion -the fraudster as far as the Gazelles are concerned - does not have any healthy relevance whatsoever within the society in which we live other than to promote a very uncivilised, retrograde ideal, where the the strong prey on the weak? Is that the staus quo which you would like to prevail? Do you think it's OK to take advantage of others weakeness? Do you practice this yourself?

Subject: Re: responsibility From: Pat W To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:19:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this is all rubbish-whether or not maharaji is a trickster,we are responsible for our own lives,and to blame a fraudster for our own misjudgment is not acknowledging the real cause of our condition-the gazelle that isnt wary enough gets eaten,and if we have been eaten, it is not the lion that is to blame-the whole web site is an exercise in blaming something other than ourselves for our own lack of discernment. As a pilot,I know that my mistakes are mine alone-any other attitude makes me at best a victim, and at worst,dead! Is your pilot training really so incomplete as to leave you with such a myopic viewpoint? If someone launches a missile at your 'plane are you trying to tell me that you'd not stand a better chance if you'd been warned that there was a missile toting maniac waiting for you beneath your flightpath? If your 7 yr old daughter was raped by someone would you have said that her lack of discernment made the rapist innocent? Of course not. If you were robbed would you just throw up your hands and say -'I should have been more wary 'or would you take the robber to court so as you could see the likes of him removed from society and so that you could get your goods back? Anyway the simple mistake you are making is that we're not denying our lack of discernment for falling prey to anything. Blame also means 'to find fault with someone' so I don't see that because one finds fault with Maharaji that inherently means that one is denying one's own former naievety. They are two separate things. The fact is that any sane person will agree that Maharaji has SOME responsibility for his actions and since he puts himself in a position of trust and so he's fair game for those who feel he abused their trust. Care to defend your comments further because I think I just wiped the floor with your logic and you're looking like one dumb pilot. Pat W

Subject: A simple question for you Dave... From: Whoa, Dave To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 11:36:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you are flying your plane, and you listen to the flight control tower implicitly (I am assuming that at times, they know more than you do about how and when and where to land your plane,and that in your relationship to them as a pilot, you need to trust them...) and they give you faulty advice, but you follow it because you trust them,and the plane crashes because you lisened to their faulty advice..... Who's fault was it? Yours?

Subject: Re: A simple question for you Dave... From: Moll of Mole To: Whoa, Dave Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:43:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you are flying your plane, and you listen to the flight control tower implicitly (I am assuming that at times, they know more than you do about how and when and where to land your plane,and that in your relationship to them as a pilot, you need to trust them...) and they give you faulty advice, but you follow it because you trust them,and the plane crashes because you lisened to their faulty advice..... Who's fault was it? Yours? --- In his gurunesses world if something goes wrong it is your fault no matter what happens and no matter what you are told. It is truly a sick world.Have you EVER sat in front of his largeness and heard him say 'It was my fault that this did not go the way I wanted it to', no no no, it is always the coordinators or the instructors or someother poor shmuck. Fuck him and his self-righteous arrogance. Moll

Subject: To Chris Bray From: Pat W To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 06:33:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chris, I read your posts down below and was impressed by your words how crucially important a part this forum and EPO has played in exposing possibly one of the worst examples of abuse that has come to light so far within the organisation. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that : What's truly 'shocking' is that a meditation which was lauded to be the Knowledge of all Knowledges, to give lofty transcendence over mere human desire was, and still is, powerless to inhibit the dreary lust, and perversion, of its most favoured practitioners. It is absolutely clear to me that your daughters request to be excluded from further discussions is rightly to be honoured. However I just wanted to add my voice to those others who have expressed that it is plainly of considerable importance and 'an appropriate agenda' for EPO to continue to offer the other victims a public voice and provide some sort of public warning notice. I totally agree with Jim that EPO should put as much detail as possible about the child abuse incidents that were perpetrated by Jagdeo whilst carefully changing names where appropriate. I would have thought this would be an acceptable course of action to you and your family who must realise more than anyone that the matter is not truly closed until a) all the victims have had their say and b) Maharaji and premies stop saying one thing whilst they are doing another. You add: Think also of the mileage this forum has had out of this issue. It has been one of the spearheads, as I understand it, of the ex-premies' attack on Maharaji. I understand there is a feeling of disappointment, even, apparently, bitterness, that one of those sharpest of spearheads has been neutralised. But this is only the way it seems. The spear has done it's work. If you are willing to acknowledge it, the wound is there for all to see. The wound in the side of Maharaji's orgnisation is that statement on their website asking for anyone with a complaint regarding sexual abuse or harassment to step forward. Yes, you have yourselves to thank for that. But equally you have to thank Abi. She fought for that. I was there. And, and you might not like this, you also have to thank genuinely concerned and sincere premies within Elan Vital. That statement on their website is a major step forward, for Elan Vital and for ex-premies both. Why? Because on the one side it's an admission of fallibility and on the other it's, at long last, an avenue for righting wrongs. And that's major, isn't it? That spear, believe me, well and truly found it's mark. What do we want to do, go and pick it up and throw it again? And aain? And again? Well, I think you must appreciate that Elan Vital are not necessarily going to be the first port of call for Jagdeo's other victims who seek assistance, despite EV's kind web offer. Therefore, yes, I see a real reason why EPO should pick up whatever spears it has in it's arsenal and continue to throw them, as you put it, whilst there is still dysfunction and denial going on in the name of Truth and the abuse goes on. As I mentioned down below, whilst a lot premies might acknowledge that Jagdeo did abuse kids, they apparently are largely very unaware of the extent - and despite EV's webnote many still just see it as a one off case that has no bad reflection on Maharaji or Knowledge. There's a lot of denial I sense about this matter - Especially, I think you will agree, regarding whether Maharaji had any responsibility. And since we are both apparently agreed that it is 'truly shocking' that people who are trusted as 'Teachers of Truth' like Jagdeo (and I might add - Maharaji himself) can abuse their position, has it not occurred to you that this kind of thing may still be going on? I would say that it is very likely since one of the hallmarks of premies - who widely believe that their Master himself is beyond 'normal morals and ethics' - is a huge disparity between their lofty talk and 'experience' and their everyday actions. Premies follow their Masters example and feel little or no responsibility towards the world around them and so suffer little conscience about taking all it has to offer but giving nothing back. It depends if you have an agenda, I suppose. I don't seem to have one. I haven't reached a point of anger yet. Speaking for myself, I absolutely have an agenda. Anger has played a part for sure, but also there is a huge issue of conscience, and a sense that it is simply doing 'the right thing' to confront the wrong that has festered within the Cult for so long - head on. Also if anyone can talk about the pitfalls of being a premie we can...We did it. I would go so far as to say that I, who again like you, walked the walk, practiced the Knowledge, bought the doctrine, surrendered my life from the tender age of 17, feel that I have a public duty to put aside my fear and reticence, and to share my experiences and realisations - within an open discussion if possible - so that others do not fall into the same trap as I did and waste a large part of their lives. So we, who were there have a social responsibility. If we don't feel it then we are not fully integrated social human-beings yet. At 45 with 2 small children I at last am realising that I can play a part towards the healthy evolution of my fellow man. Ex-premies are perfectly qualified to criticise Maharaji and try to make him see the Light! Further more, it is very satisfying to find a way to resurrect some true value from our largely highjacked past (that served to benefit Maharaji much more than us). She does not want to feel there'll be this kind of boiling furore ever behind her. For at least one very good reason. It reminds her of Jagdeo. Yes, that's one good reason I know. But does she want to deny the past? That is not the way forward for her or any of us surely? Like I said, she doesn't have to pay attention to the boiling furore that IS and ALWAYS WILL BE behind her as long as she has her memory, but she surely has to come to terms with it and move on. That is what we are all trying to do here. Her abuse was much a much worse case than most, but we all feel grossly abused too and we, unlike her, have not once had the reassurance or 'closure' of any kind of acknowledgement from either Maharaji or Elan Vital. In fact quite the opposite - we have been at best ignored and at worst, demonised and scorned. So whilst I am in full sympathy with your family I would urge you not to be so keen to bury the past that you concern yourselves overly with others need to carry on talking about it! Rest assured JHB and all of us here will be absolutely prudent to do the right thing. Feelings are probably running a little high at the moment on all sides but I am confident that good will prevail.

Subject: Re: To Chris Bray From: Chris Bray To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 23:56:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Pat and thanks to everyone who responded, including, I think it was someone called Bill, who saw straight through to my essence. He called me an idiot. So thaks for that and thanks for being here. Just to reassure you all, though, that neither Abi nor I have any wish to bury the past. Elan Vital and Maharaji's agenda but not mine. Please, please, carry on talking about it (but without naming Abi!) Because I know it has a domino effect. Abi read Susan Haupt's post and found the courage to come forward. And now someone I know, because Abi did it, has likewise found the courage and already contacted Elan Vital regarding her own sexual abuse. Yes, I am still processing things, and expect to be doing so for a long time to come. Just to set the record straight, Jim S., the fact is, I never posted before this last week, about my meeting with Maharaji or anything else. So I never said I absolved him from all blame. Nor did I say I was ready to start over with a clean slate. I guess someone else must have posted their impressions of what I might have thought. (Or I suddenly thought, posted in my name. Is that possible? If you could find reference to 'my' posting I'd be very interested. But absolving Maharaji from all blame, how could I? Nor do I think he was as ignorant of this issue as he makes out. In fact I heard the other day that he knew many years before, possibly as early as the 70s because someone heard him discussing it. That's another reason why the Jagdeo issue should not fade. Maybe that witness will one day become an ex-premie, or even now have the guts to say what he knows. As for Jagdeo ever been found, I doubt it. It's in Maharaji's interest for him to remain lost. Who knows what Jagdeo might have on Maharaji. Plus Jagdeo's existence gives the lie to Knowledge. He's living proof that, very far from flying above the 'jungle' of the world, in Maharaji's analogy, both of them are in fact down there totally immersed. So thanks again for all you said and recommended. Cheers, Chris

Subject: My apology From: Tonette To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 08:38:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have no idea if you're still reading here. I don't know if you have read what I wrote to you in the thread you started down below. If you haven't, don't! I am frustrated and impatient while I wait for some justice, any justice, to come to Maharaji and all those associated with him who have perpetuated crimes. I watch while this saga continues. Label me an angry ex-premie. Whatever. But it is that anger that I directed to you in a most unfair way. I said some insensitive, unfair and misdirected words to you. Well, I'm eating those words now. I feel pretty awful about what I wrote to you. I am sorry. Tonette

Subject: Chris-this is what I remember.. From: Jim S. To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 09:02:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember a post on EPO, in which you talked about meeting with maharaji in amaroo, and he was crying, as he talked to you as one father to another....you were touched by it, and seemed to be convinced that it was sincere... If you didn't post it, it might have been Abi, posting it soon after it happened...I'm sure it was not an 'imposter' posting....I think it was Abi, making refrence to your meeting with m... Best wishes..... Jim S.

Subject: Chris, I just knew you were a great guy From: PatC To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 02:07:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't worry about bill (with a small b - yes, don't ask) as he may have had his tits in a tangle that day. :P You said: ''And now someone I know, because Abi did it, has likewise found the courage and already contacted Elan Vital regarding her own sexual abuse.'' Please advise this friend of yours to hire a decent lawyer and file a police report before dealing with EV and the likes of Valerio Pascotto. I'm sure you know what I mean. You again: ''Just to set the record straight, Jim S., the fact is, I never posted before this last week, about my meeting with Maharaji or anything else. So I never said I absolved him from all blame. Nor did I say I was ready to start over with a clean slate. I guess someone else must have posted their impressions of what I might have thought. (Or I suddenly thought, posted in my name. Is that possible? If you could find reference to 'my' posting I'd be very interested.'' Jim S, like bill made a mistaken observation. Perhaps he is thinking about Abi's post about your meeting with Rev Rawat. BTW, both bill and Jim S are good guys too and they do have real names and use them here (unlike the anonymous Australian cult apologists, CW and DR, who used to pop in to sneer an snipe - well you missed them. If you had posted last week before they were blocked, they would have been all over you like cockroaches with supposed dirt like they did with John McGregor.) You again: ''In fact I heard the other day that he (Rawat) knew many years before, possibly as early as the 70s because someone heard him discussing it. That's another reason why the Jagdeo issue should not fade.'' Very interesting indeed. You added: ''As for Jagdeo ever been found, I doubt it. It's in Maharaji's interest for him to remain lost. Who knows what Jagdeo might have on Maharaji. Plus Jagdeo's existence gives the lie to Knowledge. He's living proof that, very far from flying above the 'jungle' of the world, in Maharaji's analogy, both of them are in fact down there totally immersed. Very true. Jagdeo was in on the scam from the get-go. You're just brilliant, Chris. Thanks tons.

Subject: To Dermot From: Chris Bray To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 00:09:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Dermot, I would frankly be distressed if anything I ever said stopped you posting about Jagdeo or in any way hindered your right to free speech. As for Abi, it's her name that she wants left out of things. Cheers, Chris

Subject: ***LET'S DROP THE NAMES RIGHT NOW**** From: Jim To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 15:54:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Perhaps all future references could be to A.? And you, my friend, my want to post as Chris B. or C.B. or something like that, no?

Subject: I have been Lolling From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 01:13:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It has been ridiculous to note how often XXX's name has been posted (I prefer xxx)since requesting anonymity and privacy. JHB should simply remove the name from EPO, but NOT the story - and simularly it would be nice if someone went through the forum archives (and this one) and simply replaced the name with A. or X or whatever. I wholeheartedly agree with Jim and posted to this effect days ago. The Danger in removing whole posts/stories is that the impact of X's tale is buried... exactly what would make Jagdeo's life easier (and M's). BTW Jim can you tell us any more (privately to me by email if needs must) about who received a financial settlement from EV/TPRF and on what terms ?

Subject: Re: To Dermot From: Dermot To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 08:17:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's what I figured your position was Chris....glad you've made it clear. Cheers Dermot

Subject: Thanks for saying that, Patrick From: Lesley To: Pat W Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:50:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am somewhat hesitant to add my voice because I am not personally involved in anything to do with Jagdeo or his victims and their families, but I am an ex premie. In particular, thanks for saying this: 'Her abuse was much a much worse case than most, but we all feel grossly abused too and we, unlike her, have not once had the reassurance or 'closure' of any kind of acknowledgement from either Maharaji or Elan Vital. In fact quite the opposite - we have been at best ignored and at worst, demonised and scorned.' I find it interesting to note that victims of sexual abuse through the Anglican and Catholic churches are now coming forward and decrying the tactic of paying money in exchange for their silence. It seems money is good, but if it comes at the expense of their voice, it is not enough, not enough for peace. I will admit, I credited Rawat with more intelligence than he has. I assumed that the invitation for people to step forward was good lawyering advice recognised and acted upon. It makes sense to assess the size of the problem, and the cost of it. And the more people they sign up, the fewer there are who might speak up and embarrass them. Can he buy his way out with our money? Having said all that, I will add that I empathise greatly with Chris and Abi and their wish to get off the front page, and of course first things first, I respect their need for privacy at this time, but I do not see why this means that the past must be erased from EPO, I feel strongly about this. Lesley Veale

Subject: Re: To Chris Bray....gently From: Jim S. To: Pat W Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 07:15:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Chris- First of all, you have my great respect for doing what you did. I 'left the fold' a few years ago, and wrote some letters to the community members in my community, and to m and ev as well.... I did it, not because it was an easy or enjoyable thng to do, but because it was the right thing to do, and my conscience compelled me to do it. The responses and lack of responses and denial were so revealing. You seem to be engaged in a similar situation. I wanted to make one point here, and to make it gently, as I know that you and your family have been through a lot. Also, as a recent ex, you must still be processing things and going through all kind of scary/exhilarating moments and realizations, as the past unwinds and becomes more clear. Additionally, you seem from your posts to be a very fair and kind man. I remember reading your posts about seeing maharaji personally in amaroo, and how you were so impressed by his apparent sincerity, and it seemed that you were ready to completely absolve him from all blame and start over with a clean slate, so to speak. Sometimes I am too nice, and too ready to let people start over with a clean slate. I wonder if the same might be true for you as well. I have caught myself doing this at times, and realize that I need to stand up for what is true, and for myself as well. I see many premies avoiding hard difficult choices right now in questioning their master, mainly because doing so would bring up so many uncomfortable feelings and shatter so many long held paradigm myths about the man and his position in their lives. While I am not suggesting 'piling on' the case of those who are critical of maharaji, I also would not suggest that he be let off easy, without fully explaining and accounting for the obviously immoral acts he has engaged in. What is needed is fairness and justice...sometimes I think that many premies are hesitant to stand up for what they think they deserve, especially if means confronting someone, and especially confronting maharaji. Lots of that conditioning still exists in us, even after we leave or adopt a different perspective. I think there is a lot going on now, and feelings and unerstandings may emerge in the future as more time passes, and possbly more people step forward. I would not be so quick to absolve maharai from all blame...I think that is exacly what he wants....on the other hand, I wouldn't make an obsession of going after him....I do think he needs to stand and be accounted for by telling the truth, and I think it is THAT which we need to press for..... We can occupy the moral high ground by asking for the truth to be told, but we must also be ready to stand up repeatedly to maharaji and the people who represent him, if and when we are ridiculed by them, lied to or manipulated by them, or we see obvious distortions and deletions promoted by them which revise history in order to escape responsibility for past actions that have been harmful.... I hope the point was made gently....it's something to think about, at least... Warm regards to you, Abi and the rest of yor family It has touched me to read your posts, and see the communication between all of you. Best of luck, Jim Sander

Subject: Re: To Chris Bray....gently but truly From: janet To: Jim S. Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:33:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: dear chris-- I would like to add my voice to patrick's and Jim's here, to say that even with all the things on the table so far, there are some aspects of this that we ought not lose sight of. I am having some of these driven home painfully upon myself, just now, again and again, by acts my own son is committing. He is very ill, mentally, and has taken off on a sociopathic spree that has been playing out for the last month. During this time, he has repeatedly assured me of things that I took on faith as being just as he said them to me, and I have been repeatedly shocked to find out shortly later that they were barefaced lies. These were things i invested money and time and belief in, only to have my sincere investments in belief cruelly voided, again and again. I tell you this, by way of gently indicating that we may all be up against this same behavior in our attempts to get real communication and fair closure with maharaji, jagdeo, and all of his organization. anyone can put out a PR release to make things sound and look good to the public. that doesn't mean a thing. what matters is how people are treated when they do approach with a grievance and ask for recompense and just action. actions speak louder than words. you know this. i know that the reason I have believed my son every time he has said such assuring words to me, is because I WANT to believe the best of him, for him, about him. It makes me feel hopeful that things are getting better. But things are not. I was believing that since tuesday, he had voluntarily gone to a live in program at ahouse for others like himself, and was getting three hot meals a day and his meds and had 24 hour staff to go to. In fact, the truth was very different. I have just learned this morning that a short time ago he was arrested, while terrorizing a woman he thinks loves him, stalking her and trying to open the locks on her house after ranting for hours on her property, thinking he deserved to be inside her house by divine rights. and so my naive hopes were again brought back to stark reality. all the years we were premies, chris, we ran to anesthetized ourselves constantly, with soothing, hypnotic, childlike assurances that all was beautiful, that this was it, that all that nastiness didnt really exist, that the world was Maya and only the master's words were real. that clinging to the belief in escape will continue, long past the day of exiting. we spent decades immersed in it, running to it at every chance, wanting to believe in it, longing for peace. that habit will linger, long past the day of renouncing, and it will get you at times you don't see coming.it was a practice. in thought, in speech, in belief, in act, in choice. and we sought to keep ourselves with others who kept the same. that's not a pattern you break overnight. consider how much we want to believe in the good. consider any form of advertising. any form of promises. any form of PR. any form of spin control. manipulation of public and individual belief is a fabulously highly paid science and art, now. people will pay anything to get the public to believe what they want them to. It is not a crime to trust someone or believe them. It IS a crime to misuse that trust, to fool it, to knowingly and intentionally mislead it for any purpose. consider that jagdeo is still at large, with access to still more children. consider that there is a suit filed in india by DLM/EV india, making a grand public posture of show, to go after Jagdeo and bring him to justice. yet it is conspicuously questionable as to why DLM/EV claims they haven't been able to find him. consider that jagdeo is a man whose life has been maharaji and knowledge for decades. consider that he was reported in africa since the suit was filed and posted on the india EV website. consider that he is nobody, anywhere in the world, except among premies, and people who follow maharaji. consider the global network of the organization, the world over. doesn't it strike you as extremely unlikely that EV could not locate him yet? i don't think your daughter has to keep her name in the story, but i do think that the impact of her story, of what happened to her, ought to be kept out there where others can know. she need not even look in or distress herself by checking in. she can leave that behind her and go back into her own life. as others have said here, the names can be changed to protect the innocent, but the story ought be told for the public good. the guys posted above me are also telling you the truth, when they counsel you that there are early stages of leaving, and later stages. it is wise to leave a lot of room for how you will evolve and mutate and metamorphose as the days go by. you can't tell from today, what you will think in a year, in two years, and beyond then. none of us knows what people here might share with you, in email, on this board, or in person, that will modify your evolution again. we can, however, tell of how we ourselves changed over time, after we ourselves left. that much we do know. a poem by omar khayam comes to minf: 'the moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on... nor all your piety, nor all your wit, can stop nor change a word of it'. this business of wanting to go back and wipe out all traces and references to something that well and truly happened,--this is wishful thinking. one of the intentional strengths of the internet was designing it precisely so that information would be disseminated out in as many places as possible, so that it would not be possible to wipe it out and eliminate it. before the internet, the printed medium was much the same. something might get out into print, and it would become impossible to call back every existing copy, to eliminate the knowledge completely. how many individuals have had to face this state of affairs? consider madonna and her ill advised nude photos before she got famous. or the Miss America who was similarly deposed for her photos, discovered after her crowning. consider richard nixon, who was disgraced out of the most poerful position on earth, labored to the end of his life to redeem and restore his name, died with full honors, and then now again, the silenced vaults of his actions are now opened to the public, 25 years after the act? It is truly not possible to call back what has already gone before. as they say, 'you can't change the past'. it lives. it is known. and it has power. and you truly can not control everything. you can not control what people say, or think, or talk about. the wish is understandable, but it is not truly possible to do in a free will society. the best you can do is accept it and grow with it gracefully. abi can remove herself from the turmoil and live peaceably away from it. she need not put herself where it will afflict her. but it is unwise to try to wipe out the past. after all, it's the only thing that we have to go on. the past is the only factual thing we have that has ever happened, isn't it? when people tell me to quit living in the past, i apologize and remind them that it truthfully is the only thing i know. everything i ever found out, happened there. and yet, still, I am fooled and taken in by things people tell me they are going to do in the future, and i believe them. and live to rue another day when it turns out not to be true.

Subject: Thanks Janet...Good one.... [nt] From: Cynthia To: janet Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 14:38:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: very well said, Patrick From: cq To: Pat W Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 07:11:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... and as Chris Bray himself said, regarding Revisionists: the past isn't something you can take to a laundromat. Let me first say that I'm fully in support of Abi's request to have her name removed from any articles/posts regarding Jagdeo's sexual abuse of children (which, since he isn't behind bars, or even receiving treatment as far as one can tell, could well be continuing). Removing all references to her name is something which, as Jim has suggested, could easily be achieved by replacing it with a suitably incognito tag such as 'witness x' or whatever. But that doesn't mean that ALL pertinent information she has divulged about this criminal (and his accomplices, of whom Prem Rawat has to be the most visible) should be removed from EPO. Surely some consideration has to be given to the other victims who suffered at Jagdeo and Rawat's hands, and who could themselves (at some future time?) gain support and perhaps even the courage to press charges against that child molester. Anonymity has often been 'dissed' on this forum. But this is one instance where it IS valid - insofar as it would be an attempt to protect a victim from further unwanted consequences of that abuse. To that end, the replacing of Abi's name in those posts would NOT be revisionism as such, simply for the reason that the nature of the abuse that took place would not be altered one jot. As for Rawat, it will forever be a major blot on his copybook, and one that he'll have to live with the consequences of, as long as the truth about his shady past is freely accessible on the internet (or elsewhere). IMO, the 'spear' analogy that Chris Bray used is not only emotive, but inaccurate. Nonetheless I respect his motives, and his position, coming, as it does, so soon after the trauma of exiting from Maharaji/Rawat's so-called 'kingdom'.

Subject: where is EV reference? From: Livia To: cq Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 10:38:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm probably a complete dunderhead here but I've just hunted all over the Prem Rawat site and the EV site and can't find any reference to abuse and/or how to report it. Where is it, because it certainly aint obvious, well, not to me anyway... Livia

Subject: EV's offer is NOT sincere From: JHB To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 15:52:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, EV's concession is a small step in the right direction, but a very small step. It's under 'About Elan Vital' and then in very small print, 'policies'. Even on that page there is a prominent menu on the left, but 'policies' is missing. I doubt I would have found it without being told, and you and BT below have posted here saying you couldn't find it. It is clear EV is not being sincere in their offer, otherwise it would be highlighted on their home page, not tucked away in a disused toilet under the stairs. John.

Subject: Re: EV's offer is NOT sincere From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 16:03:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: definitely my last post. :P EV's offer basically is a way to tempt premies who have been abused to come to them and settle for money and sign a confidentiality agreement rather than come to EPO and the forum and spill the beans.

Subject: Re: EV's offer is NOT sincere From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:18:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think is a legal CYA thing (cover your ass) for those who don't know CYA. Any organization in the US whether private for-profit or non-profit is required by law to post sexual harrassment policies prominently in the workplace. A website isn't a workplace but this obsure notice of policy is neatly buried on the EV website. This is too similar to the Catholic Church's hotline that abuse victims are enouraged to call. I think victims should go to the police.

Subject: Victims should go to the police not EV [nt] From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 10:13:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Victims should go to the police not EV From: Vicki To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 03:28:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's called 'Open Door Policy', a standard corporate trick to give them a heads up on possible litigation and time to get their defense/offense legal maneuvers in motion. If they can con the reporting party into letting them 'handle' things, the better for them. It's such a nasty con because victims are most vulnerable and they exploit this vulnerability even further. Beware, be very very aware, this is no ordinary bear.

Subject: Re: where is EV reference? From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 10:49:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The policy is stated as follows: POLICY AGAINST HARASSMENT Elan Vital has a strict policy against sexual harassment or other forms of sexual misconduct. If you have been subjected to any form of sexual harassment or abuse by anyone associated or formerly associated with Elan Vital or other similar organizations, please contact Elan Vital’s General Manager at P.O. Box 6130, Malibu, California, 90264-6130 or at generalmanager@elanvital.org. Complaints will be responded to promptly and treated seriously.' This is tantamount to the Catholic Church's 'hotline for victims of abuse,' IMO. Cynthia http://www.elanvital.org/policies.html About EV, Policies www.elanvital.org/policies.html

Subject: Everything's Gone From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 04:09:34 (PDT) Email Address: sirdavid12@hotmail.com Message: The Anything Goes Forum plus my other sites have been removed from the web. This is due to my own personal and health reasons and not because of any person online. AG had outlived its use and was past its sell-by date. I should mention that I have been somewhat appalled by how online communication has developed and don't really feel a part of it. I think there's better things to do than spend time arguing with people one doesn't know in real life about things which are irrelevant to ones own life. The internet can be a very useful tool and information medium but I feel that things can get out of hand and one can spend too much time putting energy into a fruitless task. I also don't like the way in which words are used to insult other people and this is all the more abhorent when the people concerned don't even know each other. Someone once said, ''The internet is an interesting waste of time'' and I'd agree that that can become the case if one isn't careful. It's been very useful though in showing people who the real Maharaji is and I'm glad I've played a part in that. I'm also glad that through the net, I've been able to find news of former friends and even though the news wasn't always good, I am glad I got the information, for which I am grateful. The Great Worldwide Linkup is still online and I think it serves a useful purpose. However, when the curtain falls on one's own particular act, one must take a bow and then leave the stage. So good luck to all you people who I've had communication with. I might still post something now and then on one of the forums. Just don't hold your breath though. Anyone can email me at sirdavid12@hotmail.com if they want. Cheers, Dave.

Subject: Everything remains From: Richard To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 22:37:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sir David of Cheddar, All you've done to bring truth to light will remain for all of us who've known you through these pages. You've always been full of wit and wisdom and never cheesy. :) I've enjoyed your company of truth. Peace and good health to you and yours. Richard

Subject: Re: Everything's Gone From: Jennifer To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 14:44:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sir D, God, I loved your story about guarding the cheese. That was a Best of the Forum, for sure. Enjoy your life, no pun intended! Jennifer

Subject: What about 'The Secret Garden'? From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:01:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just the other day,you announced that you were starting a new password-protected forum called 'The Scret Garden'. Is that gone too?

Subject: Re: Everything's Gone From: CD To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:38:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, it is a major nuisance that people can not contribute their viewpoints without attacking or being attacked. The on-line experiments seem to indicate that that is the way it is. Certainly anyone can now start up new on-line forums to offer new types of meeting places. David has done his share and now other people have the chance to give the experiment a go. There is always hope that good can arise from the muck. But it won't happen without giving it a good go. Cheers, CD

Subject: Re: Everything's Gone From: Pat W To: CD Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:23:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CD, I would say that this forum is a major success, because, despite having to have put up with it's fair share of 'muck', people still use it to engage in thoughtful, civilised discussion. Also the agenda here is quite clearly to discuss matters of principle about Maharaji and Knowledge. In short there is a real need for this place to exist -it is not the brainchild of one person - it is the response to a wider need. It has become the silently elected 'official' meeting place for ex-premies for the time being in a way. Even if Gerry packed this place up tomorrow I am absolutely certain that another Ex-Premie forum would be started and up and running within days - functioning as the focal point for the many people who really need to talk about this stuff or just read and resonate with the revolution of risque 'ex-premie' thinking. If anything I think those other forums have lately been providing a place where people apparently can bitch to their hearts content about the dynamic of this forum and various persons here. As far as I'm concerned I'd far rather they griped there since the discussion here is really going somewhere whether they like it or not and whether or not they can't see beyond the personalities that they would like to fight with ad nauseam. If any good is being achieved by these forums my medal would go to this place for championing the cause of the weak and weary who don't fit into Maharaji's world. By the way 'Life's Great' here too you know. Welcome.

Subject: Re: Everything's Gone From: michael donner To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 09:13:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: thanks sir dave for hanging in there are long as you have and for contriibuting as much as you have. be well. enjoy more fruitful adventures!

Subject: report from the lost colony Dave. From: bill To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 06:09:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: HI Sir David, Speaking of 'everythings gone', Here is my morning reading from the financial world over here across the pond. I would call this post 'everything's going'. How long depends on various things, but we should live to see it. I hope you will make another forum for you to do for some selective invitees. I would like to continue to read your mad ramblings. Champion tax cutter and ardent “supply-sider” Arthur B. Laffer provided an interesting commentary, Keep the Dollar Strong, in Monday’s Wall Street Journal. From the opening paragraph: “...The value of the dollar is moving center stage in policy debates. The basic issue is whether the U.S. economy is benefited or hurt by the extraordinary strength of the U.S. dollar in the foreign exchanges.” We’ll take exception immediately. The issue of whether a strong dollar is helpful to the economy or not would have been meaningful debate a few years back, and we would have argued forcefully for policies protecting a sound and stable dollar. But the issue is today basically moot, as dollar strength or weakness has been left in the hands of market dynamics. We owe several trillion to foreign-sourced lenders and it is they who will now dictate the exchange value of our currency. The time to protect the soundness of the dollar was back when the U.S. financial sector began to create dollar claims in gross excess; claims increasingly accumulated abroad. We don’t remember the likes of Art Laffer, Larry Kudlow, or other proponents of “king dollar” being very helpful on the policy front when it mattered. Actually, they were too often leading the cause of misunderstanding, making a mockery out of analyzing the processes that have for years worked quietly to put our currency at today’s significant risk. From Laffer: “Americans invest in America merely by accumulating capital. But foreigners can only invest in America by moving goods to the U.S. in exchange for claims on U.S.-located assets. More simply, higher returns in the U.S. induced foreigners and Americans to move capital to the U.S., causing an international capital surplus for the U.S. A larger U.S. capital surplus is one and the same as a larger trade deficit. It’s as simple as that.” But it’s not that simple, and Mr. Laffer’s analysis has actually been quite flawed. First of all, Americans and foreigners “invest” in American assets using basically the same means: liquid dollar balances. Domestic investors don’t trade “capital” for securities. Rather, they generally exchange bank and money market fund deposits. Similarly, foreign financial players don’t call Goldman Sachs and say, “I have 100 containers loaded with DVD players arriving in Long Beach next week that I’d like to trade for that hot convert deal you’re bringing to market.” Foreigners use liquid dollar balances also, and we would argue that most exporters of goods to the U.S. likely exchange dollar balances at home for their local currencies, leaving these dollar-denominated claims to be accumulated by financial players quite removed from commerce and goods trading. As the dollar today sinks and our trade deficit is poised to widen, it is even more nonsensical to hold to this boom-time fallacy that foreign financial flows (“capital surplus”?) are the cause of our trade deficits. Foreign flows should be recognized as more generally the “effect” of the recycling of domestically generated Credit excess. It is an inarguable fact that we have been running unmatched current account deficits, while accumulating unprecedented foreign liabilities. Any use of the word “surplus” is inappropriate at best. It often appears the bullish consensus goes out of its way to confuse this basic issue. That unrelenting trade deficits can be painted as a sign of economic health goes far in illuminating the power nowadays of economic spin. The key to better understanding these processes is to focus on how dollar balances are created. Specifically, new financial assets come into existence through the creation of new financial liabilities – through the lending/Credit creation process. We can avoid the chicken or the egg dilemma by directing our attention to the U.S. financial sector and recognizing the key borrowing and lending mechanisms. Since we have been in the midst of unprecedented domestic Credit creation (new financial liabilities), additional dollar balances (corresponding new financial assets) have been created in great excess. There is a common misperception that the exchange value of dollars previously created by the Fed is the current concern, when in fact the critical issue of dollar vulnerability involves various dollar-denominated claims created in gross excess by myriad financial institutions and market participants. Largely, these claims have been created through the intermediation of American consumer and corporate borrowings. In the case of U.S. households, we have found it advantageous to take on additional mortgage and consumer debt, while at the same time funding retirement accounts and playing the stock market. As is evidenced by the $2.5 trillion increase (44%) in broad money supply during the past four years, dollar balances have accumulated throughout the U.S. financial system. As one would expect, this enormous consumer-lending boom has fostered over-consumption. Household borrowings have financed unprecedented trade imbalances, with current account deficits mushrooming to surpass $100 billion quarterly. Consequently, unprecedented dollar balances have also accumulated throughout the global financial system. These dollar balances, by their very nature, are a means of payment for dollar denominated assets – real and financial – and by and large return to the U.S. financial sector (where they originated) in exchange for U.S. financial claims (to purchase securities or accumulate bank/money market deposits). The ongoing accumulation of financial claims – domestically and internationally – is the residual of unrelenting Credit excess, and using the terminology “capital surplus” is silly and only unnecessarily confuses a most important issue. We will admit to being rather intrigued by the timing and content of Dr. Laffer’s article. For a number of years we have had to listen to the erroneous analysis that our trade deficits were a sign of economic health, caused by what were trumpeted as sustainable foreign capital inflows. It pained us to listen. We’ll cut to the chase a bit by highlighting his concluding sentences. “Higher returns abroad and lower returns in the U.S. mean reduced U.S. capital inflows, lower U.S. trade deficits, and, yes, a weaker dollar. If the U.S. wishes to maintain our leadership role in the world economy, we’ve got to proceed undaunted in our pro-growth agenda. Just talking about a strong dollar won’t cut it. In the words of Nobel Prize-winning economist Robert Mundell, we need tight money and tax cuts -- and then we’ll have prosperity, asset appreciation, employment growth, and a strong dollar.” Dr. Laffer is either incredibly naive, surprisingly misinformed, or possesses one heck of an optimistic soul. If our goal was to maintain our leadership role in the world economy, we should have been more mindful of how much we borrowed and how it was spent. We should have over the years also been champions for a stable global financial system committed to addressing and rectifying imbalances. As the leading instigator of excess, we did nothing of the kind. The consequences of years of unsound financial boom today leave the U.S. system virtually assured of enormous state and federal deficits and vulnerable asset markets. There will be no tax cuts. Previous extreme Credit and speculative excess render the U.S. system acutely fragile. There will be no “tight money.” The highly leveraged U.S. financial sector would buckle. The Fed today sees little alternative than to bet the ranch and run with an extended period of extreme accommodation. There will be no strong dollar. There is a price to be paid for previous gross excess. Whether they realize it or not, the Laffers, Kudlows and ardent “supply-siders” are in the process of losing the battle, and there will be many casualties. They were given an incredible opportunity and blew it. The pendulum will now swing the other way, and they will likely become great finger pointers. We will be in only greater need of economic statesmen. We were for tax cuts, responsible deregulation of the real economy, and free markets. The problem was that the whole exercise became all about ideology and little about sound economics. They readily accepted an unharnessed Credit system. It was fun to believe in painless economic miracles, but now we are left with the reality of a huge mess. Booms breed brilliance, but going forward it will suddenly seem in very short supply. The irony of the damage done to the cause of free markets by its most vocal proponents recalls George Orwell’s Animal Farm. We do not expect historians will be kind. Sure, there were clear policies for nurturing a boom, but absolutely no parameters or even a willingness to address the potential for problematic excess. It regressed into little more than intellectual economic fascism. Not only was it branded contemptible to consider systemic vulnerabilities, it was outright heresy to contemplate it could all end in a huge bust. Somehow it was lost that lower taxes and business deregulation were only the “means” to stimulate the sound investment necessary for the “ends” of stable and sustainable growth. There is no magic elixir, although at times many seemed to take on the persona of snake oil salesmen. Along the way sound economic principles were thrown out the window. There was absolute refusal to recognize that over borrowing and consumption might go to extremes, and that these held potential risks as covert archenemies of sound and sustainable prosperity. There was seemingly never a concern for the nature of borrowing (financing consumption or investment) or the composition of economic output. Growth for the sake of growth, as reckless borrowing and spending became the hallmark of economic success. There was blind disregard that Credit and speculative excess – and resulting monetary disorder – are anathema to an effectively functioning free market pricing mechanism. To question the soundness of the boom was to be an enemy of the faith. The financial system was cut completely loose, with little regard for what should have been obvious consequences. Using George Soros’ terminology, “market fundamentalism” took hold in our thinking and policymaking. Just keep the faith, ignore Credit excess, and disregard rampant speculation. Trust that Wall Street acting in its best interest was in the system’s best interest. Trust that management was to act on behalf of their shareholders. Whatever it takes to get stock prices higher is what’s for the good of the “system.” Dangerous asset inflation became, in the words of Larry Kudlow, “wealth creation.” Have faith that the accountants will be accountants and rating agencies rating agencies, instead of entrepreneurs in an environment with ultra easy money providing fortunes for the taking. It became an article of faith that leveraged speculation is the epitome of “efficient” contemporary financial markets. Just believe that derivatives are a modern financial miracle. Never question the faith. A runaway Credit system and wildcat finance were sold as a great victory for deregulation, free markets, and a New Paradigm of “efficient” finance. Enormous trade deficits and the dangerous accumulation of unprecedented foreign liabilities were sold as the wondrous benefits of free trade, globalization, and American might. Apparently, we were forced to over borrow and consume because foreigners were desperate for our dollars to buy our securities. They dumped goods upon us in their quest for our stocks and bonds. All the while, the “fundamentalists” had absolutely no tolerance for opposing views, choosing instead to fashion creative propaganda to convince the public that there really was such a thing as a perpetual free lunch. Even gross excess entailed no cost. Even today, we are encouraged to just keep borrowing and spending. The most frustrating aspect for us has been this ardent determination to ignore the long history of Credit and speculation-induced booms turned painful bust. Yet, the obstinacy against learning from more distant history has only been surpassed by the fanaticism of distorting more recent financial fiascos. It’s been a pathetic case of crafting every potential valuable lesson into a “how to” book for making the same mistakes but only on a much larger scale – “The Idiots Guide to Reckless Excess,” or “Financial Debacle for Dummies.” The Japanese experience with a runaway Credit system, rampant asset inflation, and a Bubble economy was used as propaganda supporting the superiority of the American brand of Capitalism. Throughout, we were conditioned to hold unwavering confidence in the Greenspan Fed. Alan Greenspan learned from Japan’s experience that, above all, never let the boom end. The “hot money” component of the Mexican collapse was conveniently ignored, as the speculators quickly learned that if they were all crowded into the same market (especially if they were accompanied by the major U.S. institutions), the Fed, Treasury, IMF, etc. would be swift with bailouts. A grander collapse caused by a “hot money” exodus from SE Asia was cleverly construed as just comeuppance for the iniquity of “crony capitalism.” Again, instead of addressing the danger of Credit-induced financial and economic imbalances and wildcat global finance - as well as examining the true source of the mushrooming and increasingly destabilizing “hot money” and the potential for this powerful virus to infect the U.S. - the emphasis remained creating propaganda glorifying the supremacy of the American system. Rather than responding to repeated warning signs of a malfunctioning global financial system, it became a case at home of nurturing overconfidence, as well as a reckless determination to push only more firmly on the accelerator. It too often seemed like a case of inviting the hot money speculators to play at our casino, assuring them that we would wine and dine them, while protecting them from the harsh treatment they had suffered at the hands of others. Emerging economies would solve their monetary problems by adopting an Argentine-style U.S. dollar currency board regime or, better yet, completely dollarize. Rules were made up as we went along, even if they made no economic sense whatsoever. That we have witnessed wild financial excess, increasingly unstable markets, and conspicuous economic imbalances should be absolutely of no surprise. That we have made few friends in the process is similarly no mystery. But it is difficult to believe that we are so far into this process, yet the consensus view holds staunchly that things are fine and it’s business as usual. The more vulnerable the system, the more extreme the Fed’s accommodation of further excess. We are then told how resilient and strong are underlying fundamentals. Our passions have been running especially high because of our conviction that the current course is certain to turn what would have been a deep recession into a protracted depression with risk of financial collapse. So we have Dr. Laffer and others trumpeting the “we’ve got to proceed undaunted in our pro-growth agenda.” At the same time he calls for a strong dollar. But the dilemma today is that our acutely fragile financial sector and hopelessly unsound Bubble economy require enormous continued rampant Credit excess. At the same time, indelible monetary processes direct finance specifically to sectors demonstrating an inflationary bias. Finance floods into the housing sector and races to fuel consumption. The system is geared up to create additional financial claims, while little economic value is added in the process. “Undaunted” and content to stay the course? Pro-growth or pro-Bubble? And we expect our foreign financiers to look kindly upon all of this? Relative returns on U.S. assets are today increasingly unattractive, rendering our trade deficits problematic (as they have not been during recent years). Interestingly, Dr. Laffer admits, “Things have changed. The tech bubble, and every other asset bubble, has burst.” Unfortunately, this is a case of wishful thinking, as the Fed and U.S. financial sector ensured that a collapsing technology Bubble only fueled greater Bubbles in mortgage finance and throughout the U.S. Credit market. The problem with disregarding Credit and speculative excess is that they have a proclivity of running completely out of control if not squelched. Instead of squelching, we nurture. The serious dollar crisis commences when these larger Bubbles begin to deflate. We will then likely face the risk of a run on dollar assets. Do foreign players sense that that the Fed sees little alternative than a desperate attempt to inflate its way out of trouble? What troubled me most as I read through Dr. Laffer’s article was not obvious disregard for reality or the weak analysis. Rather, I had the sense that I was reading the initial salvo of what we fully expect to be an ongoing battle with historical revisionism. We will admit to being on guard for a contemporary version of Milton Friedman claiming the “Roaring Twenties” boom was sound – that mistakes were only made later. I can hear it now, “If only the U.S. had stuck with its strong dollar policy and the Fed would have instigated “tight money,” continued U.S. prosperity would have been assured.” The 1990s will be painted as the golden age of U.S. capitalism. And how could the Fed, the administration, and Congress all have made such a mess of things starting in 2002? We view misanalysis and obfuscation as to the causes of The Great Depression as partially responsible for the “Roaring Nineties.” Continued obfuscation of the dangers of Credit and speculative excess is a disservice, and we are ready... We have been amazed with “analysis” that wants us to believe that the various SE Asian and emerging market economies erred when they “devalued” their currencies. Devalued? They individually suffered post-Bubble runs against their economies’ financial assets and currencies, and central bankers were rendered absolutely impotent by brute market forces. Enormous foreign liabilities had accumulated during the halcyon days of boom and faith in miracle economies. But when booms waned and a non-miracle reality led the “hot money” and fearful domestic wealth holders to panic, central bank foreign currency reserves were woefully inadequate to meet the demand of legions of sellers. But this is precisely the risk associated with accumulating large foreign liabilities, and why central bankers should act strongly against ongoing trade deficits and guard against speculative financial flows. Those here in the U.S. so determined to ignore these crucial issues during the boom have made a critical analytical blunder. Almost without exception, when previous booms began to wane, foreign central bankers appreciated the risk of a flight out of their countries’ financial assets and currencies. They generally acted aggressively. Interest rates were increased, in many cases dramatically, but to no avail. The damage had been done during the previous boom. The dollar’s performance will not be determined by prospective policies. Rather, we must wait to better gauge to what extent the holders of our foreign liabilities accumulated during the boom are held by long-term investors, as opposed to “hot money” speculators. We must hope that foreign investors remain confident in the underlying economic value of assets supporting dollar claims. We must fear that they will look askance to the continued creation of financial claims as diluting their stake in limited U.S. economic wealth-creating capacity. We must hope that financial players have not borrowed excessively in foreign currencies to finance holdings of higher-yielding dollar assets. Such dynamics are inevitably prone to illiquidity and financial accidents. We are left to fear that dollar risk lies in wait somewhere in the murky world of derivatives, as it did throughout SE Asia, Russia and elsewhere. It should be recognized as absolutely unacceptable that our nation’s financial security today hangs on such a fragile balance. That we just don’t know our position- that we must ponder the possibility that we may be at the edge of financial abyss is a travesty. Sound policies simply would never allow our nation’s financial position to be so vulnerable. I would like to hear the Laffers and Kudlows of the world admit as much. The bottom line is that the Fed is today impotent to create the true economic wealth that would lend support to this fragile edifice of dollar financial claims. Instead, the Fed remains trapped in a losing game of aggressively manipulating short-term interest rates, assuring marketplace liquidity, and protecting the wide spreads that so entice the financial speculators. And monetary processes ensure only a greater gap between dollar claims and true economic wealth creating capacity. Perhaps Dr. Laffer will eventually get his way with “tight money.” But be careful for what you wish for. For now, extremely low short-term rates keep the leveraged speculating game working. But if this game falters, the Fed may at some point find itself in the same boat as other central bankers. The Fed may be forced to raise rates in an attempt to keep the hot money from turning cold on dollar assets. We do agree completely with Dr. Laffer when he states, “Once a weak dollar catches hold, it tends to be reinforcing.” But that’s precisely why it must be the Fed’s number one priority to protect the stability of the U.S. financial system and the soundness of its currency. It is not the Fed’s role to blindly stimulate growth and to go to extreme measures to forestall corrective recessions. Downturns are a critical and necessary aspect of sound and vibrant Capitalistic systems. As we have witnessed first hand, central bankers’ mistakes beget bigger mistakes, and it is incumbent upon our policymakers not to risk catastrophic error. Well, we’re in the midst of one. We also agree that the trade deficit will narrow, although we are anything but sanguine as to the circumstances that will force this necessary adjustment. In the near-term, a faltering dollar and continued rampant domestic Credit excess provide a potent combination for escalating deficits. We suspect that market sentiment has changed, and fears of spiraling deficits will work to reinforce currency weakness. It is this type of dynamic that holds potential for an inevitable crisis in confidence.

Subject: That post deserves a serious response From: Sir Dave To: bill Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 20:35:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but don't expect to get one from me!

Subject: Love your fun Sur David [nt] From: bill To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 16:47:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: This forum From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 11:39:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you have ever participated in any other online forums (whose topics are serious) you will have seen that disruptors (known as trolls) are not tolerated. Sure, some heated arguments take place and even fights and hurt feelings. Why, even on Andy's orchid forum there was once a real battle. People flame each other on the other forums I go to (opera and ancient Greece) and can be quite vicious and insulting. On the computer geek forums that Chuck frequents people are pretty blunt to each other and have zero tolerance for stupidity. In fact on no serious adult forums are anonymous snipers, intruders who have no business there or disruptors tolerated to the extent that they have been here. When I first came to the forum a year and a half ago I was astonished by the dysfunctionality of it. Two or three obviously nasty and misanthropic people were tolerated or humored just because they were exes. I cut them the same slack as the oldtimers did out of solidarity. No other adult forum on the net would have put up with it. I put it down to the oldtimers' loyalty to any ex regardless and also to the fact that Catweasel and other obvious cult disruptors were constantly fouling the atmosphere and making the environment so toxic that the oldtimers had stopped noticing the stench. (If anyone wants to know what I'm talking about - just take a look at the premie forum, Life is Great.) I became so inured to it that I got sucked into the dysfunctionality of it to the extent that I had sleepless nights chasing cultweasels around defending Deborah (who is now posting darshan stories on LG and blowing air kisses to her former enemies) not to mention her numerous emails per day all screaming Block him! Delete him!. This would not have been tolerated anywhere else on the net. I took it for granted because the cultweasels introduced such a mental sickness into the proceedings that I felt that it was natural, given that we were up against a sick cult. There is a big difference since I took a stance against the cultweasels and especially since I blocked them last week. I just got sick of them all pouncing on new posters. They would have been all over Chris Bray like cockroaches. Of course all I have really done is block them from posting under the names with which we are familiar. The cult monitors don't post. They read and analyse and will try again I'm sure. But the dysfunctionality of some of the exes had given these guys a foot in the door up till now. Now that the most obviously disturbed exes such as Salam and Deborah(sorry to be so un-PC but I can't be bothered to split hairs - I'm sure you know what I mean even if you don't agree with me) have marginalized themselves, the atmosphere of the forum is clearer and I don't think people will fall victim to cultweasels as easily. At least the sickness will stick out starker against the backdrop of sanity. This has been happening slowly but surely anyway. To cut a long story short, all I know is that the glimpses I have caught of the diehard cult mentality (Cerise, CAC, Catweasel, Glasser, the attack on EPO) has made me realize that these people are definitely not the Shiny People Cult. They're clever, ruthless and rotten to the core. I would not put it past them to plan an elaborate, sick and twisted scheme to discredit EPO and the forum. I'm not going to get my tits in a tangle about it though as I am too busy (praise the lord we have been very busy lately - well busier than last year - still not back to our former turning people away busy) because I still think the best way to handle any disruptions is to basically ignore them when they start planting the seeds of discord and then block them as soon as you figure out all the IPs they use. This will be my last post for a while. I'll still be here to help Gerry with the janitorial work but I will have to stop making posts as I won't have time to respond. But my take on it is not to take the cultweasels too seriously. They love that. Let's face it - M and his cult are very small fry. The premies absolutely love to be taken so seriously as they are by us. Most of them are so insignificant in reality. I will stop hounding Salam about the recent anti-ex website because I don't know if I am on a wild goose chase or not but that does not mean that I will stop being skeptical of him. He still has not answered my question about doing that site. He has made stupid jokes about it and hemmed and hawed. If he's really just a plain old nut then perhaps he is just enjoying the attention. Nuts like Salam and Deborah love getting attention on the net. In real life they are ignored, feared or laughed at so they go online to get attention. One day I'll move on and someone else will be helping to FA. Meantime I just hope to keep the forum sane. If it goes back to the way it was with Salam inanely shouting Rawat sucks and Deb screaming her imbecilities all over the forum, then I will know the cult has won. And the weapon they used? Create an atmosphere where such dysfunctional behavior is accepted. As long as I am around Deborah and Salam and the known cultweasels are blocked from here. If you want to read their rants, go to LG or AG. The forum is currently a sane, sensible, friendly and adult environment. The cultweasels may come back through another door but meantime have some good clean fun.

Subject: Re: This forum From: Bai Ji To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 15:11:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Pat, Thank you for your sane, intelligent posts. First and formost though, thank you for the help you afforded me. It is through you, and people like you here on this Forum, that insight and healing become available to hearts that are breaking. Please consider hanging around as I know I speak for more than myself when I say that you shall be sorely missed. Love Bai Ji

Subject: I'm here Bai Ji From: PatC To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 15:55:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I will be reading and cleaning up troll poops but I need to step away from posting as I don't have the time to respond.

Subject: Re: I'm here Bai Ji From: Bai Ji To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 16:06:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Darling, this is good to know. XXXX

Subject: you'll be back From: Roger eDrek To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 11:05:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: not that I want you to neglect your business or anything, but you're posts are always a good read. Yet, the Forums can be quite exhausting and debilitating when they go awry.

Subject: You deserve a well-earned break Pat From: cq To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 07:19:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You deserve a well-earned break Pat. It's not often I voice my support for the behind-the scenes 'blood, sweat and tears' that must go into maintaining a very public forum like this, but now seems to be a pertinent time. You've not had a break for ages, it seems (remember that old saying which goes: 'not since granny got her tits caught in the mangle and whitewashed the ceiling'?) Bests to you and Chuck, Chris

Subject: Re: This forum From: bill To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 06:25:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi there Pat C, I came sailing in a couple days ago from my work world and posted my missive from the outfield and it must have not had the tweak and mirth I thought it had. Oh well ! Hope it didnt go down the wrong pipe or anything. I probably should have aimed it all at James or just not hit 'post reply' I have been a bit surprised at the thirst for engaging many folks here have. Good ex's reading trollclown posts and responding in detail. I know some folks in 3d that are happy to torment without end, and well, we got some here. Maybe they are raging alchoholics. Hell, one of them may be rawat ! What else does he have to do? He must blame us for the demise of his revenue stream. He must blame us for ruining his chances for a great re-emergence. That crown is waiting, and he wants to wear it in public again. I bet he does post here sometimes. You might have talked to him !

Subject: bill's lost post From: gerry To: bill Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 09:51:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:09:29 (PDT) Original: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 01:18:29 (PDT) Posted by: bill --- --oh Pat, Recipient: PatC Email Address: Not Provided Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; AT&T WNS5.0; .NET CLR 1.0.2914) Subject: ''Jim, Nigel, me....'' aint atheists Message: Just evidence based. If there is evidence, and the evidence allows for something, then only that something is validated. I never did get to read what secret Deborah revealed about Jimmie, but my guess was that it was that Jimmie dons that box on the forehead and bobs in front of a jewish shrine once in a spiritual blue moon. Your cancelled checks to bal bhagwan Ji when you were trying to cover your spiritual ass since the split in 74 really was a shocker, but pales in comparison to your recent habit of falling to your knees after clicking ''post reply'' and nailing another diatribe against god on the forum. Such behaviour, while practised in other forms by lawyers, is simply reprehensable when done by you as you push yet another ex off the cliff to non-belief. Comon, fess up, your mouse pad is really a bible. (edit this message) (Printer Friendly Version) (Send To Friend) Your Name:

Subject: bill's lost From: billorn To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 18:02:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, I try to kid with Pat C because he makes me laugh. But I dont really measure up to 'tits in a tangle' or some of Jimmies wicked lines.

Subject: bill did you know... From: gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 09:56:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Someone has recently used your name on a post which threaten violence towards you-know-who. I deleted the threating post and blocked the IP. Five minutes later I received and e-mail from Bjorn (that's right bjorn, it traced right back to you and had your name and email address on it you stupid ass) which contained a virus.

Subject: please explain nt. From: Ulf To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 14:21:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Gerry...please explain... From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 10:20:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been trying to get Bill to email me for months. I knew him in Hartford long ago. We were friends. What's going on? please email me sylviecyn@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: Gerry...please explain... From: bill To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 18:05:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: HI Cynthia, Yahoo bought Rocketmail long ago and tried to get all of us to shift to Yahoo. Now they just dont allow me to that email and suggest I get a Yahoo email. Which I havent done yet. And it has been a couple months! Nice that it is summer again yes? Flowers and trees abloom. Its great.

Subject: What does this mean, Gerry? From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 10:16:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, I don't understand. ???

Subject: Re: What does this mean, Gerry? From: bill To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 18:05:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, it means I still love you Pat C.

Subject: Good, I thought you got your tits in a tangle :P [nt] From: PatC To: bill Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 11:21:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: This forum From: Bolly Shri To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 03:59:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your posts have been informative amusing and helpfull to me. Thank you and good luck with everything LOL Bolly

Subject: Re: This forum From: bill To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 18:34:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bolly Shri, Lucky for you that you werent here during my first years on the forum when ALL my posts were incoherent blabber from a guy typeing sideways on the couch trying to untangle my brain from 20plus years of gopidom. I dont think you want to hear my latest view on life as it contains ridiculous elements like god, devil, pawn-like humans who are crippled by design in order to be manipulated by the aformentioned god and devil game playing bastards. Jesus said 'the devil knows not for whom he works', well, doesnt matter if he himself was divine OR a fake, his comment does have merit. Lots of folks are interested in figureing out if there is a god or not, and why, if there is, why are the humans the way they are and why is the god issue such a mess. The only thing I can figure is that we are in the fix I mentioned above. I used to think the hindus, when they talked about god, and said there is the creator, destroyer, ect, that the destroyer was you know, death. But now, I am wondering if a proper translation oh hindi would reveal something more like this. 'The destroyer, bothers you all life long and makes sure no man has it made. He is the one that puts the lie to the idea that god is all love. He is the one that has it in for every single man and woman and wont let a one of them just have a successful life without some pound of flesh being removed. Also, the destroyer wont let you off the hook even if you dedicate your life to god in any manner or religious practice you were raised in. Cant hide under gods coattails from the destroyer ! Any attempts to understand god are quickly screwed up by the destroyer so that what is left is a mess that is garunteed to not stand up to the light of day without swallowing some things that you really cant believe. THe destroyer tailors the religions so that they blame god for everything because everyone overlooks what the darkness says. Which is...... I say the darkness tells no lie.

Subject: yes but From: hamzen To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 18:31:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: sure it makes the forum clearer and less messy, but it also has a hint of ban the bongoes that we all remember so well from premiedom, ie they're in their mind, blah de blah. The problem is that I suspect all of us involved in the cultish side of gmj dom had a mental health problem of some sort or other, if not a high %. We were too sensitive for this world, or we wanted to be happy all the time, or we wanted not to have to think for ourselves, or we had father issues to resolve from our childhood, or we wanted happy endings for everyone, all signs of mental health issues. When you then add the leaving, after decades in many instances, then is it surprizing there are larger mental health issues. Now I'm not advocating that we should be a mental health support group, that should be done professionally and we don't have the funds, but I am saying that this issue seems to have been left out of the equation in recent discussions. More than once recently, and I've been avoiding this fight like the plague, I've seen people with I suspect serious ussues being referred to as nuts, gaga, out to lunch, not exact quotes but exactly the vibe. Having worked in areas professionally where mental health issues were a key component I know how unhelpful such an approach should be, apart from my own experience a couple of times of strong depression. Comments like that can be unbelievably wounding, and can cause serious aggravation of the condition. And if you are one of those people who thinks there are 'loonies on the loose', then I suggest you thank your lucky stars that you got out of the cult without these kind of problems and step back a bit. Surely otherwise by getting sucked into stuff you are displaying exactly the same lack of discretion and discrimination others are being accused of. Maybe also a serious naivete if you thought you could support people with such issues and then be surprized if they react in unexpected ways. Just playing devils advocate here Pat to fill out the picture. Ohh and a shame if you are leaving from posting, that spiritual thread was out of the conlon top drawer in my opinion, a strong return to form, and the pat c I know and love.

Subject: No, Ham, I don't buy that at all From: Jim To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:51:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ham, Many times over the years people have suggested that something we were doing here was reminiscent or reflective of the cult programming we endured. I've never found any merit in any of those arguments and, with all due respect, this one's no different. Any group eventually faces issues of maintaining order that allows it to function properly. So what if the cult had its own version of disruption problems and its own way of handling them? Big deal. The cult also raised money. Does that mean that any attempt by Gerry, Chuck or JHB to defray costs by asking for donations has a 'hint' of the cult about it? The cult also sought publicity. Does that mean that anything we do in that regard has the 'hint' of the cult about it? The cult had some strong voices (well one in particular). So does that mean that any strong voices here suggest a 'hint' of cult? The cult had consensus on certain matters (to say the least!). Does that mean any consensus here has the 'hint' of cult about it? Honestly, I've never seen a single thing we say or do that even comes close to a being a 'hint' of cultishness. Nothing. I imagine that there are other former this or former that groups in the world. My guess is that very few, if any, have the hint of cultishness about them. We're no different except for the thing we're former members of happens to be a cult. Now sure, if we started worshipping Nigel, say, and called him our fearless leader and deferred to his judgement without question, any of that kind of stuff, then, for sure, one could rightly say we were taking on some of the traits of the very cult we condemn. But I haven't seen one iota of that. If you think you have, please explain and we can talk about it further. Of course such criticisms are in fact a blight on your heart but, if you have them, smoke 'em. It's your life, after all. If you want to take those risks, go for it. :)

Subject: God, I must be an awful communicator From: hamzen To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 17:17:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, you're line of thought was not on my mind at all. I was coming from a couple of very different angles. One that maybe we don't seem to be any where near as aware of the mental health issues involved for people leaving the cult, and two because of that when people do arrive here with more serious issues of that nature I don;t think we handle them as well as we could. Because we don't realize the seriousness of these issues I think we try to do too much support of an unqualified nature, and when they backfire, because we are in too close, and we are out of our depth, we react to protect ourselves which just exacerbates those problems. Maybe because of my work experiences I have been much more wary of contact with people here who might have those issues, whereas I suspect others have done more support behind the scenes for certain individuals, and been out of their depth. When those contacts then go awry there are large problems, and the natural defence reactions then kick in on both sides. My comment re bongoes was relating to the last part of the process, the labelling and name calling, which from the other side, whatever their behaviour, just exacerbates their condition, which for individuals who are already in an overly sensitive state, creates wounding of a nature a lot of us would find hard to imagine. That I suspect is part of the reason they then go way over the top. Maybe Pat is right and I'm not very good at communicating in this format, since my comments also seem to have been misread by Cynthia too. I thought Pat seemed to get my point, but maybe even there ... dunno will have to re-read his post.. From another tack, and hopefully you'll be cool with this. But I've kjnown people here who just cannot perceive what a good hearted bloke you are, probably way too good natured in real life. This misperception happens I suspect because they misread your probing as a control mechanism, and not as I perceive it as a way of rooting out the ingrained cult thinking we all unconsciously left with, like some root canal infection which only radical surgery can remove. This leads to those regular situations we have seen here where those who are more sensitive feel like they are on trial, and you misread their defensiveness as a cover up because you either never felt, or can't imagine what it must be like to feel that sensitive.

Subject: I'm feeling a big 'whatever' well up within inside From: Jim To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 13:28:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, Ham, but I looked again at your first post, the one you thought I misperceived, and I don't think that's what happened so much as I just focussed on one part, the 'hint of the cult' part, in my reply. Too bad because there was all sorts of other stuff to disgree with too! :) For one, I completely disagree with the notion that a high percentage, possibly even all, premies had mental health problems and that's why they became premies to begin with. Sorry, Ham -- poppycock, on that one. Yes we were fools who wanted to be happy all the time. BFD. That's not mental illness so much as being susceptible to someone who might promise to take you there, ie naive. I've seen mental illness, as have we all, and it's not that. As for people bristling or recoiling at 'probing' here, mine or anyone's, well, I see that mainly as a feature of this fast, written medium where our conversations, especially disagreements, easily take on the look and feel of legal interrogatories. If I were still spiritually inclined and bent on protecting those beliefs no matter what, frankly, I'd be nervous posting here, Jim or no Jim. There's always someone who's going to ask for proof about things and spirituality doesn't do well at all under that scrutiny. If we were all just hanging out it wouldn't show, it might not matter. Who'd even know? But this medium is like an instant debate form that fits over every statement and that's probing indeed, I think. No way around it unless, of course, you have an agreement to just not argue.

Subject: You're a great communicator, Ham! From: JHB To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 13:14:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great post Ham, crystal clear, and appears to be a good explanation for some of the dynamics on these forums. Certainly I can see that the defensiveness we feel when our posts are challenged could be taken to extremes, including imagining malevalent motives in the challenger. John.

Subject: Re: God, I must be an awful communicator From: Bai Ji To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 17:32:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Hammi (hope you don't mind my premature familurisation) I tend to agree with your obsevation about 'my' over sensative reaction to posts. I am in a deeep state of distress and welcome all and any intelligent and heartfelt posts to create a sounding board for me to bounce off. May I say that I am also in A Crisis mode and need love and support at this time. I am failing and have no other avenue than herePlease be forgiving and accept my level of failing as such. Time will prove me strong and a warrior worthy of the fight. Love Bai Ji XXX

Subject: Call me eccentric...:) From: Cynthia To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:09:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Hamzen, First let me say that there is no way that this forum or EPO could or should, IMO, take on the task of addressing serious mental health issues. One reason is because of the limiting format of a internet forum. The other is liability. I can't imagine any professional placing themself in that vulnerable position. You probably would agree with that. For the record, I have discussed in private with Pat the pitfalls of name-calling using terms related to emotional and mental health. In the U.S. at least, consumers of the mental health care industry (and it is an industry) have worked to remove the stigma of the labels given to us by health care professionals. The labels I'm referring to are the ones given as diagnoses, not 'loonie, insane, neurotic, crazy,' etc., you get the picture. I've been out front about my emotional disorder, DID, MPD, call it what you want. But because it is a very misunderstood label, I've taken my share of verbal abuse by the other side of the fight, i.e., the Deborah alliance or whatever it is. At the beginning of the fight I became enraged and called some of these people bad names, but only once referred to the particular label which Selene has reported here on the ex-premie forum. After my initial rants I backed off and did try to have some communication with these individuals, particularly Deborah, but received explosive, name-calling, insulting, and nasty retorts. So I've given up trying to communicate with her and the rest. Everyone from the ex-premie forum who tried to have a civil discourse with her has received the same treatment, including Marianne, who has stayed out of the fight. Deborah broad-brushed all ex-premies as a cult and has apparently returned to the Maharaji Cult. On AG and LG, each of these individuals with the assistance of certain anonymous and regular trolls here has contributed to a 'hate Cynthia' campaign by starting ridiculous threads about MPD, re-naming me Cyanide or Cynanide, and having great sick fun about multiple personalities. So be it. I can take it, I'm a strong person. I think it's childish and immature, but they've done it and I've moved on. Besides the fact that I like Pat and Jim, one reason they hate me is because I challenged Salam on AG to come out of his homophobic closet because of various nasty comments about Pat's sexual orientation. He claimed he didn't know what homophobia was so I explained. What resulted was another thread of gay-bashing at Pat's expense, which was insulting to me as a human being, not because of my association with Pat Conlon. The gay hate campaign was allowed by Dave on AG and he even joined in while he had a warning at the top of the forum telling people that it was not acceptable. I really didn't understand that. He called it innocent fun?!? Dave took on this disgruntled group of ex-ex-premies as a cause of some sort because the women, in particular, were complaining to him of being abused verbally by Pat and Jim. But Dave wasn't fair about it. Because I've never been a regular poster at AG, Dave took on a protective role for 'the other side' as it were, and when I asked him about the verbal abuse and name calling against me right there on the AG board, he brushed me off. I told Dave I thought he was practicing a double standard and that was that. I stopped posting on AG and LG except for the occasional response when I read them using my name in an insulting way. Every time I tried to enter into a civil conversation on AG I was ganged up on, called mental health types of names and was essentially ostracized. This type of posting on both the LG and AG forums led me to the conclusion that these people were actually playing a type of evil mind manipulating game and I refuse to participate. I have watched this happen over the past weeks and it is surely a sick thing happening. But these are middle-aged adults, who, like me or anyone else, is responsible for how they behave, what they say, and for taking care of themselves if they do in fact have a serious mental or emotional malady. Your concerns about the mental health of premies and exiting premies are valid. I have those same concerns too. I don't think by having a strict policy of banning anonymous and known trolls is the same as excluding anyone who comes here who happens to be labeled as mentally ill and presents certain behavior because of a particular disorder. There are support references on EPO with links to reFocus, and other anti-cult sites which are helpful to those who may think they are in need of private outside counseling. I make it a point to make a link here when I sense there is a problem not being addressed by an individual, in order to point them in the direction of real world help. There is also RE which new exiters can apply to. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) is one prominent affliction that can and does happen frequently to exiting cult members. Dissociative disorders, too. So I think that when viewing the entire picture of 'the fight' and the reality of how this forum is now operating is important to take into consideration. We've witnessed a distinct division. I don't believe that any newly exiting premies can say when they come here they are automatically dismissed as insane. What I've seen especially lately, is that they are welcomed and encouraged to post if they choose. I think what's gone on in the past few months has been a healthy thing overall. When I come to this forum I know I won't be ridiculed or demeaned because of my particular mental health label. It did happen in the distant past, but that is water long gone under the bridge and I now see this forum as flourishing with new exes having good conversations. Best, Cynthia

Subject: Back to communication classes for me From: hamzen To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 17:36:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynthia, obviously I'm not very good at communicating. My reply to Jim, although personal to him in parts, really covers my main point, which is that we try to be overly supportive when people, especially of a very sensitive nature arrive here and/or are particularly unaware of mental health issues which is why I suspect we have these regular explosions here. Re the professional treatment, I couldn't agree with you more. I think we should be much more wary of either bridge building or criticizing peoples stances here, and should be much better at reading between the lines when people arrive here. And that is because I think we seriously underate the mental health issues effects of cultdom, and focus more either on emotional support, or conceptual deconstruction.

Subject: Re: Back to communication classes for me From: Cynthia To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:11:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Ham, Call me dense.:) I know my reply to you didn't address your point. I think we should be much more wary of either bridge building or criticizing peoples stances here, and should be much better at reading between the lines when people arrive here. And that is because I think we seriously underate the mental health issues effects of cultdom, and focus more either on emotional support, or conceptual deconstruction. I think we agree but I want to be sure I understand you. Are you saying that someone who had an underlying mental health issue prior to life in the cult which may have been suppressed by being in the cult, and upon leaving the problem becomes exacerbated by the additional mental/emotional difficulties of the actual leaving part? I know what reading between the lines means but I'm not sure what you mean when you said that in this context. This medium of communication is quite difficult. Tone of voice, eye and facial expressions and body language play a huge role in normal human communication. I'm sure misunderstandings occur because of the lack of our ability to see and hear eachother. I also believe that the emotional/mental affects of being in a cult, especially for those who were in for many years, is under-estimated. I wonder how we can remedy our approach to premies coming here to reflect a sensitivity to this. I've also noticed the cultural/language/idiom differences between say, the Brits and Americans, or the Brits and me. This became glaringly obvious when I was reading the Brit humour thread. There were so many of the jokes that I just did not get because I don't understand the idioms. This is a good and important subject.

Subject: I'd be crazy to not respond, Cynthia :P From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 15:53:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Precisely. Yes, I should find a new word to describe the behavior of the people who have attacked you. I can completely understand them attacking Jim and me because we called them on the lack of accountability and evasiveness but you? they attacked for no reason at all and used the most disgusting ways to do it. What word should I use to describe Salam and the baying hounds in his harem that he set on you? Deluded, warped, nasty, ugly? I don't know but I will stop using the word ''insane'' even if I only use it colloquially. :C)

Subject: Re: I'd be crazy to not respond, Cynthia :P From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:03:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, I just read the Margaret Singer article and she calls cult leaders 'wacko' so I guess you can go with that...;)

Subject: Insanity - calling a spade a shovel From: PatC To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 01:31:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not surprised that it was you who tackled me on this subject as it is controversial and I bet a lot of people have said ''ten foot pole'' to themselves when they read my post. I'm glad you raised the subject of insanity. Discussing it has been long overdue. It would have been insane of me to ignore your post. So, yep, I'm back to make one more response because your points are excellent. It was even fairly well-written - probably one of the least difficult of your contributions to understand thus far. Let's face it - you can sometimes sound like a koan - to me at least. But at least you don't shy away from controversy. Okay, I'll define what I mean by insanity. I've labelled a couple of folks with whom I've had fights on the forums as insane, crazy, nuts, loony - you name it, I've said it and I've meant it. I was not using the epithet ''insane'' in the legal sense or even the clinical sense but in a common sense way. Charlotte, the local yenta, a German immigrant who owns two adjacent houses on our street worth nearly a million dollars, lives in one house and stores cardboard, plastic, newspapers, bottles and other rubbish in the other - not for recycling but for plain old hoarding. When I talk to some of my neighbors about her I have to be careful what I say. They are very politically correct in this most politically-correct city in the States. Fortunately with most of my neighbors I can say straight out that I think she's nuts. By that I mean that she is irrational. Her behavior is irrational and nonsensical - hoarding utterly useless rubbish in a half million buck house which could give her an income of 3 or 4 thousand a month in rent. That's stupid. Okay maybe just eccentric. Okay - she's eccentric nuts. One man's meat etc. But my neighbors who've been around for a while also know another side to Charlotte. She really has a very evil streak - her innate German schadenfreude is polluted with a vicious delight in creating trouble, sowing the seeds of discord between neighbors and spreading fear and suspicion with some really ugly rumors. She usually only practices her mischief on the new ones who don't know her well yet. With most of my neighbors we can nod our heads in agreement and say plainly that she is not only eccentric nuts but evilly insane. With my ultra-PC neighbors who have not yet been caught in Charlotte's web of deceit, I have to talk about her cricumspectly. I warn them tactfully: ''I don't want to prejudice you against her BUT be careful. She's upset a lot of people.'' But with the ultra-PC folks who've been around for a while and do know her, well, I can call a spade a spade even with them. We all agree - she's insane. Not just nuts. Nuts is kind of harmless. Insane is harmful. I can't talk about insanity from the clinical psychiatric point of view because I don't like the shrink biz and think most of the people who get into the business do it because they're crazy and want to figure out why. I understand the legal definition but even that has been polluted with psycho-babble, vide the ''Twinkie Defense''of Dan White who assassinated the queer politician Harvey Milk and Mayor Moscone the year after I moved to SF. Anyway, the only way I can talk about insanity is from the moral or maybe common sense point of view. According to this point of view - I am insane for being queer. Not being PC, I agree. Being queer IS crazy. Why would one chose to be queer? It's a ridiculous perversion of a simple biological mechanism for procreation. It's infantile and probably some form of arrested development. You'd have to be nuts to be queer and face a life of being ridiculed and scorned. Okay baby-makers have become more tolerant but not particularly enthisiastic about us poofters. So, yes - I'm insane to be queer. Except, of course the shrink biz decided to back off from calling it a mental disease because there was enough evidence to start thinking that homosexuality is not a choice but may be innate. But I still don't squeal if you BM's criticise me because, from a common sense and moral POV, being queer is crazy. I don't fret about being nuts too much because, as far as I'm concerned, most people are crazy when it comes to sex or money. I mean, isn't the straight male's fixation on tits and Lolita-type pubescent chickies sick? Sex has become an emotionally complex trip and even a recreational sport for westerners. In SF the straights are as queer as the gays. There are more straight private S and M sex clubs in SF than the rest of the States put together. Now to me, S&M is really insane. I do not understand the connection between pleasure/sex and pain/degradation. These guys are nuts. But most of them are not insane. Nuts - well to me everyone is a bit nuts - but nuts is harmless. Insane is evil, ugly, misanthropic, deceitful, sociopathic and, when I've called a couple of premies and exes insane (to their faces not behind their back) I meant it. They are ugly, evil misanthropes, pathological liars, insincere game-players, morally perverted, fear-mongering, paranoid and negative, spreading confusion through their duplicitousness and lack of ethics AND they're irrational, evasive and irresponsible. I could go one but I must go to bed as it is late and I have a busy day tomorrow. You raised so many important points and I would like to address them one by one and may later but hopefully some other brave souls will pick up the topic and run with it. As I said - I would have been insane to not answer your post. Oh, one quickie - I know that I was mentally ill by the time I met Rev Rawat - from a combination of paranoia induced by being harassed and put in jail in apartheid South Africa, being queer in a Nazi police state, taking to many drugs for too long, having one too many mind-bending trips on acid, being depressed for too many years, being lonely and isolated and frightened most of the 8 years I lived in the UK. So yes, I have seen the bottomless pit of hell - it is mental sickness and I was mentally sick for many years. But I eventually decided that I was too poor to suffer from madness or allergies and gave them up as being impractical.

Subject: But that's my point Pat From: hamzen To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 17:52:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: re the woman in your street, you would be much warier of contact with her because you know she can switch so fast. And surely that's one of the points of mental health issues, it's the speed of change that can happen in peoples make-ups that is greatly accelerated compared to more stable periods of their lives. Volatility can be a key ingredient. When you then add in all the cult issues themselves, and then layer on top of that leaving the cult and having to deal with in effect 30 years that can be perceived as a complete waste, or a total delusion and all the regret and loss of hope, you have a highly charged setting to begin with. I have just felt that we have displayed a lot of naivete and unawareness around this topic here, and that has always been here, and I think it's highly dangerous because when it does explode people who are more sensitive will have their conditions amplified and that makes me really sad. Because surely as much as we want to hit gmj and his whole abuse of power, it would not mean much to me without granting the same level of awareness to the psychological damage inherent in his whole culture and the ruinous effects on peoples mental health.

Subject: Real psychiatric problems, Ham From: PatC To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 02:09:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe I was being too flippant. I'll try again. When I was in the cult for the first ten years I noticed that there were some premies who seemed pretty normal (whatever that might mean) or at least had things in proportion and were not particularly odd. But most premies were peculiar including me. There were a few premies who were a bit eccentric but not unhappy and some who did have real psychiatric problems which made them miserable. I had some sort of underlying sanity but also had some real mental and emotional problems. That was in the UK in the seventies. When I returned to South Africa and lived in the Indian ashram, I began to realize that I was a real fruit-cake. The Indian premies were so obviously not burnt-out walking-wounded acid freaks. They were normal. Some had lousy arranged marriages and were unhappy. Some had bad digestion and were chronically grumpy but most were pretty contented and quite ordinary. Rawat drew most of the early western premies from the drug culture. We were the acid pioneers and quite weird and wonderful. His Indian devotees were sort of sane except that they were Hindus and that might have seememd sane to me once upon a time but no longer does. I realize that traditional religions are not often regarded as insanity because they are so unconscious - mere cultural memes - but I now see most religions as crazy crap. Hinduism, Maharajism, bhakti bullshit are not any saner than the stoned nonsense that burnt-out crusties in the Haight believe. So, yes, there may be a higher incidence of psychiatric problems among premies than the general population. Going back into the fold after a 17 years absence from it and seeing what's left of the premies sure made me think so. And, yes, we have had that problem here and have floundered because....well, because most of us are nearly fifty (some of us are even older) and most of us have dealt with our problems, have solved them or are in the process of solving them and function quite well, are reasonably happy and not particularly irrational. So, okay, I used the words insane, nuts, crazy etc colloquially, definitely not in a politically correct fashion and probably inaccurately. When I lashed out at the creepy cultweasels and three of the erstwhile exes, I should simply have said of them that they were LIARS and lacked decent impulses. I should not have used psychiatric words. Using words which trigger a lot of PC reactions is not clever or productive. I was talking about people who may or not have psychiatric problems but they definitely have ethical and moral problems. They're fucking game-playing liars. You seem to be talking seriously and earnestly about exes who do have real psychiatric problems. This is a discussion which has raised it's head a couple of times and I've avoided it because it means talking about my own past insanity and who the hell wants to dwell on the miserable times of their lives? Not me. My take on it is that this is not the place to solve psychiatric problems even for those exes who are qualified to help. It is not the right environment. So, sure, perhaps I have to pick and chose my words more carefully but I don't really believe that. No matter where one turns the real world has to be faced. This is not a rehab clinic. It's simply a microcosm of the real world. Those of us who have had mental problems in the past and sorted them out aren't worried about PCism. But I realise that some people here are still pretty raw and hurting emotionally. I'm not the right person to deal with that as I don't have the simpatico for it. I don't have a solution to the problem that you pose other than to say that people with psychiatric problems should seek professional help. Of course the erstwhile exes whom I have criticised seem to think everyone else is crazy except themselves but exhibit extreme misanthropism bordering on sociopathy. Have you also noticed that the really obnoxious misanthropes are usually also liars? But that's just some particular insincere people I'm talking about and there are sincere folks here who are still hurting and unhappy. So, I withdraw my use of the word ''insane'' and substitute the phrase ''misanthropic, sociopathic, unethical, immoral, game-playing liars'' - but that's such a mouthful. Can't I use the word insane the way I did and substitute the phrase ''psychiatrically challenged'' for the real McCoy?

Subject: Well said, hamzen From: Marianne To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 18:43:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Every single word of these posts about mental health. I agree with you completely. Marianne

Subject: Margaret Singer on cults From: PatC To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 10:17:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for sending me that article, Marianne. I haven't read it yet but here it is. PSYCH SLEUTH on cults www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/05/26/CM67534.DTL

Subject: ^^^A MUST READ ARTICLE!^^^ [nt] From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 11:31:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: PS Anything Goes is gone From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 01:53:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AG, the ersthwhile (dammit, Livia) haven for exes who are bored with the forum and prefer talking baby talk to each other in fake German accents and making poofter jokes, is gone. Actually the AG fruits, nuts and vegetables have gone underground. This morning Sir Dave announced a new password-protected asylum (in both senses) called ''The Secret Garden.'' Praise Allah!

Subject: seems like some exs DO From: Jethro To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 03:48:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: miss being in a cult.

Subject: Good Luck Pat From: PatD To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 14:58:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You've certainly raised the tone here though I wasn't so sure about Thelma,but I liked Thelma because she said fuck you rawat in more depth than I could. Thanks too for your anti anonymity campaign,without which I would still be stuck with a joke persona. You mention the diehard cult mentality. They're clever, ruthless and rotten to the core. That's 100% right. The perfect devotees,the mirror image of their master,the ones prepared to do anything to maintain...... what?......beats me. Still,there're only 3 or 4 of them agin 50 or so of us,& that's only in cyberspace,in the wider world as you say,very few give a flying fuck about the Lord of the Universe. All the best to you,may the rain fall softly on your fields & all that.....love PatD.

Subject: Thanks for your kind words, Pat [nt] From: PatC To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 01:37:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: j

Subject: Re: This forum From: Voyeur To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 11:42:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for all the work you have done here, and more power to your elbow.

Subject: Re: This forum From: PatC To: Voyeur Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 11:50:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was hoping you were making an offer to take over. :P Go on, pretty please. Hope you are well and happy.

Subject: Re: This forum From: Voyeur To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 13:10:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know me better than that......my days of endless thankless toiling service while watching how the other half lived are well and truly over....

Subject: Rumour has it ...... From: PatD To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 08:51:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....that Guru(just call me Prem)Maha etc,will be putting on one of his one man vaudeville shows in London in late June/July. Venue unknown. What a trouper!

Subject: 22nd July From: I hear it's Brighton... To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 07:06:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..followed a day later with an introductory programme at The Barbican. premies have been asked to raise £35 per seat for the latter to cover costs.

Subject: Re: Rumour has it ...... From: Bolly Shri To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 04:13:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Will you give more info nearer the time? I have to get my saris down to the river for laundering, and maybe rob a bank to find the 'donation' Jai Sat etc. LOL Bolly

Subject: Anyone fancy a london demo?..... From: hamzen To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 18:34:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Also thinking of getting some cards printed up, what should be on them, just http://www.ex-premie.org or details as well? Any dates and locations?

Subject: Re: Rumour has it ...... From: Thorin To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 09:17:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rumour also has it that some 'dedicated' premies have also sent personal invitations to PR to put on some 'sideshows' in one or two other locations. I understand that PR has, in his infinite kindness, accepted appearing in these 'small' and 'select' showings. Costs of entry presently unknown but, I am sure, will be mouthwatering. Gee ain't this all dandy - think I may get back on the 'participation' listing. See you at the 'feet' Warmly,Thorin

Subject: ....time for a European vacation (nt) From: Must be.. To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 10:59:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Anyone was wondering From: Just Incase To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 08:47:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Elan Vital, Inc. PO Box 6130 Malibu, CA 90264 Program / Activities Information currently not available in database Financial Info Assets: $0 Income: $0 This organization is not required to file an annual return with the IRS because it is a church Income Money that the organization has received from contributions, grants, the performance of services, etc. GuideStar takes this figure from line 12 of IRS Form 990 or from the GuideStar Financial Statement completed by the organization. These are net figures from which rental expenses, costs, sales expenses, direct expenses, and costs of good sold (lines 6b, 8b, 9b, and 10b on Form 990) have been deducted. If GuideStar currently has neither Form 990 information nor a GuideStar Financial Statement for the organization, the figure is taken from the IRS Business Master File. Income listed on the Business Master File is a gross figure that includes the expenses listed above

Subject: LG is anti-shri hans From: Jethro To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 20:54:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They deleted JHB's post quoting hans. Seems like they don't approve of prem's huru.

Subject: Here's how EPO can help with all of this stuff... From: la-ex To: Jethro Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 07:38:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, it is SO revealing, fascinating, interesting etc., that premies and maharaj himself are uncomfortable with some of the 'satsang' from the master's master... EPO could host some of shri hans best quotes concerning ethics, the teacher/student relationship (some of which is quite bizarre), the supposed powers of the master etc.... Also, all of the dfferent versions of the 'power succession', could be explained and discussed, and perhaps an e-mail could be sent to maharaji's web site asking for his clarification......) I remember at least 3 dfferent versions...1)the voice at the funeral telling him it was his duty to spread knowledge....2)the letter from shri hans with 'salutations to the 4 boys, but 'complete prostrations' to the youngest (Pay Pal)'....3)the 'smoke filled room' version, in which 4 different groups vied for power, including the camps of: a)bal bhagwan ji ji b)mata ji c)maharaji d)proessor tanden and dlm..... These versions could be posted, and e-mails could be sent to bal bhagwan ji (sat pal) and maharaji (Pay Pal) for clarification. Also, the letter could request their perspectve on shri hans 'ethical satsangs'.....

Subject: Re: Here's howEPO can help with all of this stuff From: Jean-Michel To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 07:53:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why don't YOU write it ? Tons of genuine documents are already on EPO. You just need to write an essay on this .... or a thesis !!

Subject: Re: LG is anti-shri hans From: Livia To: Jethro Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 01:31:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes well it's obvious why, isn't it. I found a quote of Shri Hans where he was talking about the crucial importance of ethical integrity in a Master. I posted it over there and everybody ignored it. Unsurprisingly. Shri Hans is inconvenient and I expect they wish he'd go away. The fact is that Maharaji deeply loved him and worshipped him - still does, I don't know. He certainly used to say that he prayed to him and I used to think that the devotion he had for Shri Hans was the devotion he wanted us to have for him. But Shri Hans does keep saying these awkward things - so what do they do? See him as someone who was steeped in traditional Hinduism! But then Maharaji worshipped him! Oh dear, best thing to do is just ignore it and hope it'll all go away. Love, Livia

Subject: Isn't it amazing that From: Jethro To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 01:44:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: premies follow someone who has been given a mission thru 'hearing voices'. 'The voice told me 3 times 'you are the one to continue'....I would have been happy to be a humble premie...blah..blah...blah' Or did I remember wrongly?

Subject: Re: Isn't it amazing that From: AV To: Jethro Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 04:44:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: somewhere I saw posted three seperate quotes from M about how he was passed the 'mantle of power' from SH...the bit about hearing voices was one,in another quote, M said SH left him a letter. I forget the third, but they are all different. I read here an account that M was plopped on the throne after SH died by a mahatma before Mataji could get BBJ up there as the eldest son and natural successor according to tradition....I wonder if this is true..it's all getting a bit apochryphal. But then there's that 'dear children of god, why are you weeping?'..satsang from M, and of course that SloMo shot in Satguru has come when M and SH exchange deep knowing looks..... It seems very strange that LG should delete such postings, because it exposes the heart of the revisionist ethic...considering all of this info is pretty much in the public domain, all the acts of cover ups say more than than the texts they are trying to obscure!

Subject: Yes, whatever happened to channelising? From: Nigel To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 16:53:29 (PDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Shri Hans again (who else? - he seems to be flavour of the day..) The Holy Name should be received from one who himself received it from his Perfect Master, and who is presently Perfect Master in a correct spiritual succession. From ancient times the Perfect Master has channelised His spiritual power to His disciples. Since the Name comes from the same spiritual tradition, it has become very powerful. He who teaches this Name is called the Guru, and he who receives it is called the disciple.

Subject: then new premies now have a new Guru - From: cq To: Nigel Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 04:14:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bow down To Shiba! images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005N5XP.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Subject: Yeah, isn't that something? From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 19:31:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Current premies must ignore the early teachings of both Maharaji and his father, Shri Hans. Those teachings set out the basic program which Maharaji still relies on to maintain dominance and control of his followers but the teachings themselves are verbotten. I mean, I think it's just amazing that neither LG nor ELK would be willing to allow some of this stuff to even sit there side-by-side with other unrelated bits of 'wit and wisdom'. It's incredible. I mean, this is how weird it gets. Maharaji picked up a Kabir fetish from his father. Great. Well, Hans Yog Prakash, Shri Hans entire philosophy in one, neat scripture, has a whole Kabir section. But I'll bet anything that the last thing 'Visions' is going to be selling any time soon is Hans Yog Prakash. Why? Because it states the program far too clearly for Maharaji's uses these days. What program? The same one Maharaji himself carried forth and embellished in his downright scary 'Peace Bomb' satsang. You know, the one where he threatened secular artists with their 'just rewards' once his Peace Bomb finally exploded and he, Maharaji, ruled the world. Now here's the weirdest part. All scriptures seem to have a catch in them that, in meme terms, serves as a survival and reproduction device. The bible, for instance, warns its readers that it is, indeed, the word of God, tries to flatter and cajole them into accepting what it says on face value under some bullshit principle that faith is better than knowledge and then threatens them with damnation should they doubt or turn away. Could you imagine if any other kind of book did that? What if Stephen Hawkings (must be a biologist :)) wrote a new book. Imagine the introduction: This book spells out the latest developments in string theory. It is actually an utterance of God's own wisdom which it confirms beyond any doubt on pages 35 to 38 where it says so in the clearest possible terms. If you have found this book, consider yourself blessed. Indeed, you might as well trust that the book found you because trust, in this context, is all good. Indeed, if you have any doubt at all about anything in this book, the one thing you can trust more than anything else is that that is none other than Satan playing with your mind. Now, did I say 'latest developments'? Did I say 'theory'? Trust me, I am not using those words in their common, wordly sense. In fact, only I know exactly what I mean by them but that's okay so long as you have enough trust (for a definition of 'trust' see page 52). Anyway, now that we've found each other, you know, of course, that there's no turning back. That, dear reader, would be the devil's work. So, enjoy the ride, give me everything and don't eat the brown acid -- until I tell you to, of course. Now what's so weird is that Maharaji and Shri Hans did the same thing. They, too, tried to trap their devotees with strong commands about how to receive their utterances and how not to. Shri Hans went out of his way to explain what a real devotee was as opposed to a fake one (see the quote below re 'Do-your-own-thing' type premies). And Maharaji, in his Peace Bomb emphatically anticipated and dismissed any current or future complaint that that Talibanesque rany should ever be discounted because of his youth. But what's so funny is that the premies refuse to even look at their own cult leader's directions in this regard! Talk about being ginger, skittish, blind-folded, trussed and hog-tied. The cult that was too afraid to look in the mirror. Amazing.

Subject: The bible of de-progammers says this.... From: la-ex To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 07:55:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to my friend who was a premie for 10 years, and an 'exit counselor' for another 10 after that, the sure fire way to keep devotees in a cult is to always mention 2 things, rght next to each other... 1)The promise of great rewards (bliss, nirvana, eternal heavenly after life, etc....)..if you follow the path.... Followed by: 2)The promise of great punishment if 'plan A' is not followed to the letter...(the 'mind' eating you up, sharks getting you if you fall off the ship, eternal hell and damnation, endless lifetimes in reincarnated insects bodies etc....) It's always the juxtaplsition of the 2 great extremes, with the 'master' as the only way out, the only way to get to the obvious good, and avoid the obvious bad... When you think about it, these techniques are used in varying degrees in most religions, terrorist groups, and any group that wants to keep it's followers in line etc.... When you look at the 'peace bomb', it is scary......not so much in that I belive that m thinks that stuff now, but that it does show: 1)how he grew up, and what he thought it was all about.... 2)if he didn't believe it, he sure was ready, willing and able to brow-beat a bunch of poor premies into following him, by believing this crap... 3that all of us who became premies somehow managed to 'overlook' these disturbing satsangs, or 'sweep them under the ashram rug', or something... Can you imagine anyone today allowing anyone they know to get into this, after reading ANY of this, even if it was in the past? Wouldn't they at least want a little bit of information?....(something which Pay Pal is not willing to give ...)

Subject: Channelising JFK From: Moley To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 17:00:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have put Moley in a trance state and used her hands to manipulate your earth devices - i.e. keyboard. I am looking for that peachy letter the previous incarnation of god (and I should know) wrote to me whilst I was in corporeal form. It is somewhere on ex-premie org. Any of you embodied beings know where to find it?? (P.S. George W Bush - get a life.)

Subject: Shri...and...his..shadow! From: Cynthia To: Moley Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 20:10:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I happened to have my copy of Hans Yog Prakash and...btw, the subject title of this post goes to the tune: 'Me and My Shadow' Shri Hans Ji Maharaj When one is in Guru Maharaj Ji's presence, one's hands should be folded and one's speech should be humble and soft. One should never stretch one's legs before Him, but should keep them folded under the body. One should not cross the room in front of Him, and should never even step in His shadow. Shri and his shadow walking off to Malibu..... (once again) (over and over) ;)

Subject: Where in Hans Yog Prakash From: Dermot To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 23:36:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: does it tell you how to pick him up and cart him off to bed when he's pissed as fart on cognac, Cynthia? A bit difficult if your hands have to be folded and you're forbidden to step in his shadow......those x-rated Pams incl Mishler/Dettmers must have transgressed some Divine Law somewhere along the line. :)

Subject: Re: Where in Hans Yog Prakash From: Cynthia To: Dermot Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 23:53:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm just trying to picture someone with their legs folded under them trying to walk across the room and not stepping in His Shadow. Premies, legs folded under, bums to floor dragging Him inch by inch...the sweet stench of surrender...''Pranam Mraji.'' ''Wearsh Mata Ji'' He cries. Four, maybe five premies are tugging, pulling, trying not to smell his stinking drunken potty mouth breath. Lights out. Then the premies, seeing no Shadow, get up and walk away. How many PAMs does it take to put him to bed?;)

Subject: BTW From: Dermot To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 00:06:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hilarious post! 'Wearsh Mata Ji' hahahaha.

Subject: We God forsaken Manmutts,,I don't know:) [nt] From: Dermot To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 23:59:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Irreverent Humour Heals... From: Cynthia To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 00:03:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've always had a problem with authority figures;) I must try to sleep...3:00 am here.

Subject: Shri Hans on being funnier than words From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 14:19:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Stay near the rich man’s door, and accept his blows. He may be pleased one day and give you his favour.

Subject: You're making these up From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 16:14:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He never said this, did he??? John he doesn't know any rich men but is willing to accept his blows.

Subject: Careful there, John From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 16:23:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No I'm not making them up. Straight out of the pages of Hans Yog Prakash. But I'd be careful about accpeting any of those rich mens' blows, John, what with venereal disease being so rampant and everything. :)

Subject: Shri Hans on 'Do-your-own-thing' premies From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 14:12:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The saints divide devotees into two types. The first type is he who approaches a Perfect Master because he understands that he has need of his spiritual guidance. He is called one who believes in his Guru, because he gives his life in service to his Guru. The second type is known as one who follows his mind. He approaches the Guru because he sees that other people are coming to him. Although he has a Guru he continues to follow the dictates of his own mind, and continues to do only those things which he himself wants to do. This is why he is called a disciple of mind, while the other type of devotee is known as a disciple of his Guru Maharaj Ji. Funny, isn't it, how much at odds he is with some of these jokers?

Subject: Shri Hans on attending M's Trainings From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 14:03:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: :):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):( O Kabir, when a disciple doesn’t mind being insulted left and right, the people of the world call him a true devotee of his Guru. :):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(

Subject: Quote of the Day -- Shri Hans Ji Maharaj From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:56:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ********************************************************** :):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):( A disciple who concentrates on making many friends, instead of forging a strong relationship with his Satguru gets stuck in mid way, and never reaches the abode of Truth. ********************************************************** :):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):( Funny, the last Shri Hans quote one I submitted to ELK's 'Wit and Wisdom' page: Lustful women who pay no heed to the words of Satguru, but make a show of modesty on the outside, says Kabir, become bitches who moan wherever they go. didn't make it up on the page for some reason. What's really weird is that I posted that quote on LG too, just like all those Einstein and Kermit the Frog quotes that keep popping up there but it just plum disappeared! Would someone be so kind as to post this new one on LG perhaps? Thanks, Jim who's on house arrest

Subject: Re: Quote of the Day -- Shri Hans Ji Maharaj From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 13:52:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wasn't there a quote from SH in 'Divine Times' about; 'after realising Knowledge, it is the joy of the disciple to forge beautiful loving friendships' or maybe that was Ramakrishna... jeez, all these guys telling me what I should do about friends...waaaaahhh!

Subject: Re: Quote of the Day -- Shri Hans Ji Maharaj From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 13:46:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Posted. I wonder how long it will last? John.

Subject: Thanks -- let me know, huh? [nt] From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 13:48:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Pity Shri Hans...... From: PatD To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 13:25:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......never got stuck in Midway. Surely he could've turned the torpedoes into flying fish. After all, his son promised to turn the bombs into petals.....maybe he's just waiting for the biggie to show us what he's made of. Nuclear war in the subcontinent. I'll bet he's got the Challenger fired up on the runway just ready to get over there & zap Agni out of the sky. Incidentally,didn't someone mention once(maybe I saw it in the archives),that Prem is in possession of some late 19thC book of old gugru's ramblings given him by ShriH,which he has been known to dip into when short of inspiration. That might be an interesting read....all those frog stories.

Subject: repeated hisyory From: Jetjro To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 21:23:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anyone notice that the story about Hazur(the 'first' GMJ)finding his guru by a big hand fishing himout of a river is the same story told of how hans hound his guru.

Subject: No way, Jim... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 13:03:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not banned I'm ostracized. Maybe someone else can post it for you but not me;)

Subject: Abi's request - an update From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:17:02 (PDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: You will recall that Abi requested here that details of her story be removed from EPO for personal reasons. After a short email exchange I agreed to her request, and myself and Jean-Michel are currently complying. Jean-Michel is identifying, and removing or editing, posts in the 'Best of Forum' section. As references to her story abound, we have asked her advice on how far we need to go. I have temporarily removed the Jagdeo pages while I rewrite them. In the meantime, I have replaced the main Jagdeo page with this. The Forum Archives present a more difficult challenge, and I have told Abi that I cannot promise when they will be edited. If you have any questions on this, please email me, as I do not think it appopriate to engage in a long discussion here. John.

Subject: Revisionism From: Satganga To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 23:17:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, delete and change the story. Abi never said what she did. Abi has her father back from M's world, he's no longer a premie. Abi is done with her use of EPO and this forum. By all means take some of the most damning information about M off EPO and from the forum archives. Just remember, the net remembers. Hard drives remember. You can take the person out of a cult but you can't take the cult out of a person.

Subject: Revisionism From: Satganga To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 23:16:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, delete and change the story. Abi never said what she did. Abi has her father back from M's world, he's no longer a premie. Abi is done with her use of EPO and this forum. By all means take some of the most damning information about M off EPO and from the forum archives. Just remember, the net remembers. Hard drives remember. You can take the person out of a cult but you can't take the cult out of a person.

Subject: Re: Abi's request - an update From: Susan To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 22:48:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think it will be tricky to rewrite the page. If one just reads my posts it looks like Jagdeo's crimes were only fondling, not rape. I almost wonder if it would be better the way it stands now. I respect Abi's request. I know when I posted what I did it was very clear with Brian it was NOT retractable. However, I think we care more about Abi than that. I do not need to retract mine but without the context of Abi's it looks like Jagdeo was much less of a preator than he was. We need some wisdom on this, but the vitims come first. I know of another victim similar to Abi who has never been willing to post. I think it is her right, and any victims, not to have to tell the story in public.

Subject: The only thing I'd drop is the name From: Jim To: Susan Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 08:53:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The ONLY thing I'd drop, either on EPO or in any future forum discussions on the subject, is the name. And for that, I'd probably just do the classic thing of using her initials instead of her name. That's how they do it in the courts here when they're trying to protect the identity of a youth whether they be an offender or victim. The story gets told, of course it gets told -- are you kidding? -- but, to respect the privacy of the young complainant (never adult), only the initials are published. So if that's what she wants, fine, all we need to do is refer to her as A., let's say. I am not of the view that a person's story is somehow 'theirs' in the sense that they can determine who can and can't refer to it, especially if it has some greater significance for those who want or need to talk about it. The whole story of A. and how Maharaji lied directly to her father -- looked him straight in the eye and cried crocodile tears, claiming that he had no idea when there's overwhelming evidence that he actually knew about Jagdeo's pedophilia for years -- is extremely important. I couldn't imagine keeping that a secret.

Subject: Re: The only thing I'd drop is the name From: bill To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 06:31:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: agree. Her idiot father probably wants it removed. She wont remove it from her mind this way, and her kid can handle the truth when he grows up.

Subject: Gerry, is above post also a fake bill post? From: PatC To: bill Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 10:23:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is Bjorn using bill's name to post? Please don't delete this till we have time to trace the IP.

Subject: EV Harassment statement missing in action? From: BT To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 22:43:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, when I tried your EV link I found this statement: 'POLICY AGAINST HARASSMENT Elan Vital has a strict policy against sexual harassment or other forms of sexual misconduct. If you have been subjected to any form of sexual harassment or abuse by anyone associated or formerly associated with Elan Vital or other similar organizations, please contact Elan Vital’s General Manager at P.O. Box 6130, Malibu, California, 90264-6130 or at generalmanager@elanvital.org. Complaints will be responded to promptly and treated seriously.' However, two times tonight I went directly to the EV site, i.e., not through your link, and could find the above statement nowhere on the site...not under 'About Elan Vital' or any other of their tabs. I looked because I thought this was a breakthrough...FINALLY -- something, albeit too little, too late. But lo, going to the site directly, the statement is not there, unless I'm doing something wrong to find it. If it's there, it's deeply embedded as far as I can tell. Any explanation? Thanks. BT

Subject: Re: EV Harassment statement missing in action? From: JHB To: BT Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 23:07:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's still there, go to 'About Elan Vital' and click on 'Policies'. It's not on the menu on the left but just under the big 'About'. Now you see what I mean about it not being prominent. John.

Subject: Re: Abi's request - an update From: Nige and Moley To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 17:53:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think everyone will respect Abi's wishes - but only those who are aware of them. Unless they had been reading regularly over the last few weeks, many forum regulars are likely to, innocently, make future references to hers and Susan's stories. Much of the information has entered the realm of 'common knowledge'. I am not quite sure what I am saying here but if, for instance, new Jagdeo victims suddenly show up, it could be very tricky for anyone to subsequently piece together or make refernce to what is actually 'known' and not known. Obviously utmost sensitivity is required - and I can see you are applying that on EPO - but I think it would be very sad for all Jagdeo's victims if a culture of silence were to prevail because of that sensitivity, and - who knows? - the whole thing gets brushed under the Indian rug and Jagdeo enjoys a happy retirement in his apparently untraceble present location. Hmm.. Not advising anything here. Just observing and contemplating the unfairness of it all. BTW, to Abi: We have nothing but the deepest admiration for the way you have conducted yourself throughout all this - and now for your dad, too. Our very best wishes.. Nige and Moley

Subject: Re: Abi's request - an update From: Jennifer To: Nige and Moley Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 15:11:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nige, I do not want to see this get swept under the Indian rug either. At the risk of sounding insensitive to Abi (which I am NOT, believe me) unless there is a LEGAL reason to remove the entire story--for instance, if Abi was paid off by Elan Vital not to tell it, for instance--then I am with Jim. It would be great to be able to change the names and leave the story. Abi does not have to go there and read it, but it could help other victims to be able to read a story similar to what happened to them, and we know there were other victims. Sexual predators don't just do this kind of thing once. If there is a LEGAL reason and the site could be sued for leaving it on there, then of course, it would have to go. Hey, John, I'm just putting in my two cents worth. It's your call, of course. Abi was so brave in telling it in the first place. It just seems such a shame to take it all back. Yeah, Nige, in the world of child abuse, it's all unfair. Jennifer

Subject: Re: Abi's request - an update From: Cynthia To: Nige and Moley Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 09:05:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think it's time to be patient about this issue because of Abi's personal request. I can't take back a promise I made to Abi based on her wishes to not discuss her abuse by Jagdeo. That said, the matter of Jagdeo is not over because of one victim's request either. There are other victims who may come forward in the future. I think time will allow me to sort through this dilemma. I dislike the ''culture of silence'' as Nigel and Moley mentioned above. This culture of silence is an awful reminder of the current Catholic Church sex abuse scandal which never would be a scandal if adult survivors of priest abuse didn't tell and take action. Likewise, EPO and ex-premies assisted and facilitated in speaking truth to power. This is a frustrating condundrum. Children in schools and in homes are taught ''to tell'' when someone hurts them. One reason they are taught this is because silence is a critical dynamic of a pedophile's MO. For the child victim it is a shame-based techique built into the crime itself. I want to be careful to walk the fine line between a particular abuse victim's wishes while acknowledging all others who do have the option today and in the future to tell what happened to them as children while in the cult. To have a gang mentality about this frustrating catch-22 will only serve to discourage others who were victims, IMO. So I have to honor Abi's desire for privacy. It's her life, after all. To examine Abi's motives behind her request would only be speculation at best and I won't do that right now, regardless of the questions I have about it but dare not voice. Nobody said this would be easy. It is a slippery slope for me to walk while I write this post and choose my words carefully. It feels uncomfortable. But for now I must place Abi's wishes first and wait, watch to see what happens next. Cynthia

Subject: I'M ITCHING TO SPEAK From: Dermot To: Nige and Moley Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 22:09:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not so much about Chris/Abi but in response to a Roupell post. I'm itching to speak to speak about Jagdeo, Maharaji and Roupell. I could couch it in terms of a hypothetical situation...........and it's not in anyway disrespectful to Chris/Abi. However, maybe I should bite my tongue and curb my anger,,,,,as the post I have in mind is quite shocking perhaps. I could post it on Daves newly re-instated uncensored/unblocked forum....I've been voluntarily staying off there since Jim/Pat were blocked (though I posted for a while when they were blocked then gave it some thought and blocked myself:) OR I COULD CALM DOWN AND FORGET IT.....LET IT PASS....WHATEVER. Maybe that's the wisest thing to do:) Feedback anyone? ....I have a lot of respect for Abi's request....so?????? Cheers Dermot

Subject: Re: I'M ITCHING TO SPEAK From: Chris Bray To: Dermot Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 02:25:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dermot, I understand your desire to speak out. I don't know what it is you want to say - but I do understand your desire and respect the impulse. That it concerns m daughter's request to be excluded from all further talk of Jagdeo, that much I do know. And that now concerns me. The decision is yours but, personally, I think she has suffered enough. If I had known in the 70s what I know now, Jagdeo would have spent the rest of his life a cripple. As it was, the way it worked out, it was my daughter who, year after year, spent her life as a cripple. Her therapist said it was one of the worst cases of child sexual abuse he had ever encountered. Think about that. This wasn't an itch. This was pain. Think also of the mileage this forum has had out of this issue. It has been one of the spearheads, as I understand it, of the ex-premies' attack on Maharaji. I understand there is a feeling of disappointment, even, apparently, bitterness, that one of those sharpest of spearheads has been neutralised. But this is only the way it seems. The spear has done it's work. If you are willing to acknowledge it, the wound is there for all to see. The wound in the side of Maharaji's orgnisation is that statement on their website asking for anyone with a complaint regarding sexual abuse or harassment to step forward. Yes, you have yourselves to thank for that. But equally you have to thank Abi. She fought for that. I was there. And, and you might not like this, you also have to thank genuinely concerned and sincere premies within Elan Vital. That statement on their website is a major step forward, for Elan Vital and for ex-premies both. Why? Because on the one side it's an admission of fallibility and on the other it's, at long last, an avenue for righting wrongs. And that's major, isn't it? That spear, believe me, well and truly found it's mark. What do we want to do, go and pick it up and throw it again? And aain? And again? If you could meet Abi you would understand, just by the general state of her health, her reasons for requesting what she did. She's had enough. Really, she's had enough. Nothing particularly fine or noble about it. Just human. She wants to get on with her life. She really does. She does not want to feel there'll be this kind of boiling furore ever behind her. For at least one very good reason. It reminds her of Jagdeo. It depends if you have an agenda, I suppose. I don't seem to have one. I haven't reached a point of anger yet. For me, still, it seems to be a kind of purging. Every so often I vomit something appalling up from my premie past and I look at it and say, my God! Did I really swallow that! Yuck! So if you do have an agenda, Dermot, I wish you all the best. Go for your life! But if you can pursue it by honouring Abi's request, all the beter. The truth will anyway out, as my old Mum used to say. Abi's done her bit, hasn't she? Now it's up to anyone else who was ever harmed by Maharaji's organisation to stand up and be counted. Because what's truly 'shocking' is that a meditation which was lauded to be the Knowledge of all Knowledges, to give lofty transcendence over mere human desire was, and still is, powerless to inhibit the dreary lust, and perversion, of its most favoured practitioners. Yeah. Yuck.

Subject: Re: I'M ITCHING TO SPEAK From: Jennifer To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 14:59:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chris, 'that statement on their website asking for anyone with a complaint regarding sexual abuse or harassment to step forward.' With all due respect, what do you think a statement like this actually achieves? Will Elan Vital really address issues now, or continue to stick their head into the sand? If they are willing to negotiate with a victim, do you believe a monetary pay off makes things right? Shouldn't Jadego go to jail instead? Just some food for forum thought. Best wishes to you, Jennifer

Subject: Thanks again, Chris From: PatC To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 10:10:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Think also of the mileage this forum has had out of this issue. It has been one of the spearheads, as I understand it, of the ex-premies' attack on Maharaji. I understand there is a feeling of disappointment, even, apparently, bitterness, that one of those sharpest of spearheads has been neutralised.'' Just to assure you that there is no disappointment or bitterness from me. I was never happy to see Abi's life so openly on display. As important as her story was in showing up Rawat's callousness and selfishness, I still cringed any time it was mentioned. My concern is not that we have lost a ''spearhead'' of ''the ex-premies' attack on Maharaji.'' It may have been the most cruel and ugly example of Rawat's venality but not the only example. However many of us of course are concerned that the cult has once again stooped to blackmail and succeeded in silencing someone to protect Rawat. I will admit that speculation that this has happened is what concerns many of us. Those of us who do wish Rawat to be accountable for the enormous amount of suffering he has caused premies over the years because of his greed and stupidity know that the most important ''spearhead'' really is the accumulated evidence of Rawat's personal immorality and not that of his employees. You again: ''Because what's truly 'shocking' is that a meditation which was lauded to be the Knowledge of all Knowledges, to give lofty transcendence over mere human desire was, and still is, powerless to inhibit the dreary lust, and perversion, of its most favoured practitioners.'' The most favoured practitioner of Rawat's K of course is Rawat himself and he is the most obvious example of it's inability to inhibit his dreary lust and perversion, his own greed and his sexual abuse of his own trusted students. Even worse it shows that the special K that he sells is useless and even morally crippling.

Subject: No problem Chris From: Dermot To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 08:43:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What happened to Abi and yourself and the rest of your family REALLY happened. I can only speculate on a HYPOTHETICAL scenario as if It happened to my daughter....and thus, to some extent myself.However,I'm more than willing to drop that speculation. Given that, I'll obviously respect Abi's request. Somehow or other, M and his org have to face up to a lot of stuff but whether they sincerely will do is doubtful but ya never know! As for Ab and your family, I'll happily never mention her/you again and certainly have no desire or intention to use you all as some propaganda tool.....no way jose. Thanks for your post and best wishes to you all. Cheers Dermot PS somehow, though ,Jagdeo and M still have to be mentioned and held accountable for a lot of stuff regarding Jagdeo....in general or in particular for any victims still wishing their details to be known.That is only right and proper.

Subject: Silence From: Loaf To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 08:13:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Silence is not an option. We have to speak without using the name of a person who has requested anonymity. I am curious about this 'cash settlement' as reported on EPO. Who was it to, and do the terms of it require silence too ? I dont want to interfere in anybody's private life, but matters of public interest remain so, even if XXXX's identity is removed. Lets keep talking.

Subject: Thanks Y'all From: Dermot To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 08:10:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On second thoughts though I'll drop MYpersonal reflections. Suffice to say that I don't think I'd have been as fine and noble as Abi and her family undoubtedly have been had I and my daughter been involved.... I would probably be rotting away in a prison somewhere in India, Australia or somewhere as a result:) Unless I had good people and advisors to restrain my stupid Irish temprement that is:) Cheers Dermot

Subject: There is no group position on this From: JHB To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 05:01:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The fact that Abi made the request does not in itself mean that everyone has to comply. Each person should do what they think and feel is right. My own position as EPO webmaster was a difficult one, and I have no fear in saying that the decision to comply was not as clear cut as some might think. I won't go into my reasoning, but the possibility of leaving Abi's story on EPO was seriously considered. Some will judge me for even thinking that, but that's their decision. So, how do I respect Abi, and yet also respect the truth and history? That's up to me to decide, as it is for everyone else. John.

Subject: Re: I'M ITCHING TO SPEAK From: PatC To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 01:32:43 (PDT) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: How about emailing it to some of us first. :C) Get it off your chest.

Subject: to Dermot From: Livia To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 01:24:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dermot, Please email me too at liviadowte@hotmail.com I've got a couple of things I'd like to say too but would rather not post them on an open forum. And I'd like to know if it's the same thing you'd like to say but feel you can't, if you follow me. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: I'M ITCHING TO SPEAK From: Marianne To: Dermot Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 22:39:13 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Dermot: I know what you are talking about. There's another way to talk about what's bothering you, in a more general way, in a separate thread. Email me now if you want to discuss. Marianne

Subject: Honoring Abi's Request is Important... From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:51:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for an update John. I certainly do hope that everyone will honor Abi's request. The site looks fine... :)

Subject: Ok, honor the request, but WHY From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 07:48:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We all know what happened. And if it weren't for US, it never would have happened. It is the strongest arrow in our quill and now we are 'asked' to throw it away and not use it. Bullshit, I say! rAWrAT WINS AGAIN. LET'S TALK OPENLY ABOUT THIS !!!

Subject: Yep, I see it that way too. From: Tonette To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 17:22:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some of the most blatent abuse by M and his cult minions is going to go poof into cyber space. The energy this forum gave to Abi with support and empathy, poof into cyber space. Abi got her cult addled father back, so to speak. It leaves the rest of us looking like fools. I just don't believe it. Yeah, erase all trace if you can. But you can't erase it from my hard drive now can you? Who cares about those yet to venture here. Hell with it, Abi got what she wanted, now didn't she? Feeling used and abused, Tonette

Subject: Just be patient, Tonette From: JHB To: Tonette Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 13:18:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tonette, Just give me a little time, and then judge the changes to EPO. I do not intend erasing the past, just trying to respect someone who went out on an emotional limb, and wants to rein back a little. John.

Subject: I am so torn about this.. From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 09:24:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry, I really am torn about this new development because I do agree with what Jim states above about the entire history of Jagdeo in the cult. I cannot forget that Abi is a person who has suffered so much and I think if we rip into talking about this, while she has made a request of us not to talk, (Christ this is frustrating) I become a part of mob mentality--I mean for right now. Let the dust settle and see how everything works out. I also believe there are ways to discuss the Jagdeo matter while respecting Abi's wishes. Rawat hasn't won. I don't believe that for one second. For now, I recommend patience....while I sit here feeling gagged.:( Maybe for now venting privately will help...let's not make a person into an agenda. But let's not forget there are others who may tell their stories in the future, either. I'm feeling frustrated and angry, too. Of all things, I abhor silence on the issue of child abuse. Cynthia

Subject: Re: I am so torn about this.. From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 16:54:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My 'heart' tells me to honor Abi's request and my mind tells me others WILL come forward. I would think so, and they too should receive a settlement. This is no different from the catholic church. Rawat should pay up. Maybe we could place something on EPO telling people their rights as civil plaintiffs against the glorious Prem Rawat Foundation. No more silence and we should urge Mr Rawat to do the right thing. Money won't 'make it all better' but it's how we settle up injustices in this country.

Subject: Re: I am so torn about this.. From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 20:44:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry, would you please email me? I lost your address.:)

Subject: Thanks, John From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:54:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The new Jagdeo page looks good. If you want this thread locked just say so but hopefully everyone will understand the need to not discuss this issue and will restrain themselves.

Subject: Hey, I just won one too! From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:06:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just got back from court. A client of mine who was convicted of first degree murder just got a new trial too. Won't talk about it much, can't talk about it much. Only wanted to say that I think this was a completely just decision and I'm happy as hell. Jim Who never likes to brag -- unless, of course, he's got something to brag about :)

Subject: Congratulations, Jim From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:53:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well done. Non-sequitur: Did you see last nights' season finale of Law and Order? Should be compulsory viewing for the European neo-Nazis.

Subject: Thanks and no From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:56:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well done. Non-sequitur: Did you see last nights' season finale of Law and Order? Should be compulsory viewing for the European neo-Nazis. --- What about it?

Subject: Law and Order OT From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:01:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I better not ruin it for you as there will be summer reruns. Basically - some former Green Beret nut decides to start killing Muslims in the US. But I won't tell you the story unless you twist my arm.

Subject: congrats matey and also... From: hamzen To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:17:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: heard from Lee, looks like he's popping over saturday, so finally I can get all the gossip on yer and hold you to ransom, so I'm feeling good about yers too. Looks already like we'll get on fine, and he's well up for a bit of gossip it seems, :) Must feel really good when you win a big one, that's what I hated most about my social services vocation, no real victories, just constantly keeping stuff at bay the best you could. Anyway since we're off topic, loads of great shit happening here, not least the r.u have got a tent in a summer fdestival locally, small scale, but real community based which I love, and we're putting on a multi-media exhinition including graffiti art and web design amongst others later in the year. Definitely a brazilian good vibes summer developing over here, love it. Web site almost finished so I'll either e-mail yer or post as of. Nice one jim, n'joi

Subject: Great work From: Marianne To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:57:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You must be thrilled. If you got a new trial, something really wrong happened during trial. Was it the judge or the prosecutor who misbehaved? Email me with details if you want. Congratulations Jim.

Subject: Darshan Dreams From: Bolly Shri To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:21:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Last night I dreamed I was at Ms place. The missus was out and god was in charge of the kids(quite a few small ones). He put them in front of the telly and went off to get a few cans of lager and some smokes. I came into the room and he grabbed me by the hair and put his hand across my throat. I tried to scream and no sound came out. Then I woke up. At the same venue ( my unconcious) I have had tea with Margerat Thatcher and seen she was human. I'm reflecting now on which one was most scary. It could be a tie. Love and keep off the the stimulants at bedtime, Bolly

Subject: Re: Darshan Dreams From: AV To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:25:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wot wuz Mag's fave T?? Lady Grey??

Subject: Re: Darshan Dreams From: Bolly Shri To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:36:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: British workers boiled alive, where the spoon stands up unaided. Missed your reply about a rendevouz and this machine is running out of time. LOL

Subject: Re: Darshan Dreams From: AV To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:57:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: soz, what's your email?

Subject: Re: Darshan Dreams From: Vicki To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 06:02:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had one not so long ago. M was in town and I went to see him. I politely sat up front, minding my own business, and poof, one of my oldest, dearest longtime premie friends appeared at my side, sent to guard me, watch me, and make sure I wasn't up to evil mischief. I turned to her and said 'I'm here to just listen to what he has to say. I thought the door was always open.' Clearly it isn't. What was so surprising was the attitude from her that she had been convinced I was now a threat of some sort when she's known me for nearly thirty years.

Subject: Colours To The Mast From: Chris Bray To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 22:36:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In 1974, after listening to the sincere testimony of hundreds of premies, I put up my hand for Knowledge and was revealed the techniques. From that moment on, until late last year, my life defined itself within the parameters of Maharaji's world. In order to make the move into Maharaji's ashram I gave away career and real estate, and the respect of my agent, friends and family; everything, in fact, which attached me to this world, this 'maya'. I did this because I had come to believe that Maharaji was the Lord (something we reassured ourselves about at least twice a day when we sang 'Arti') and that consequently this lifetime could most usefully only be spent in his service. (A note for Revisionists: the past isn't something you can take to a laundromat.) The name Maharaji, as we know, translates as Great King. His world is a kingdom. What I found was that its border were, and still are, defined by very real boundaries. The four walls of Video, Participation, Practice and Darshan are as effective a containment as the walls of any monastery. Within those walls, then, I lived and laboured. I never considered a life for myself outside them. My last breath, I prayed, would be dedicated to him. But then, for the sake of my daughter, I stoped practising Knowledge. I did this becase she was engaged in a particular battle and she was losing. There was no one else to fight for her and there was no beter way I could represent her. I knew I had to come out from behind those Monastery walls and see things as she saw them. Then I could fight for her effectively. I had already tried to fight for her from within those walls, you see, and failed pathetically. I had to 'come out'! So little by little, as I wished it to happen, so it happened. It took a while for me to achieve this but then, yes, there I was outside the Monastery walls. For the first time since 1974. No angels, no messengers from the Court of Love came in my dreams to urge me back. Not even Maharaji himself. I was very much on my own. Interestingly, very interestingly, I experienced a lot of fear, even panic. I asked myself where this accumulation of fear had come from and was shocked by the answer. I felt loneliness, too. I had, in a subtle way, cut myself away from brothers and sisters dear to me. But then, little by little, something began to take hold, to grow. I begn to like it outside the walls. It felt dangerous, chancey, like I was skating on thin ice. At first I was scared. Then I said, so be it. I began to feel alive. With that, too, as I started to look around, I experienced a surge of respect at the plain courage and ordinary goodness of people living outide those Monastery walls. I hadn't expected this. With this came a reflexive and profound lack of esteem for myself. I hadn't expected this either. But when I realised my former self-image was being demolished, again I said: so be it. A kind of fierceness took over. Relief, too, because no longer when I met people did I have a secret and superior agenda which I might or might not share with them, depending how 'open' they were. So that's it, really. I felt that it was time to nail my colours to the mast. From time to time I ask myself - it's a useful excercise - if instead of practising Knowledge for the last 28 years I had put the equivalent time, effort and money into tertiary study or Hatha Yoga or basketweaving or whatever, what level would I have achieved? The answer has to be - a very high level. The next question is: then what did I achieve practising Knowledge? Well, poverty, I have to say, for a start. Always making myself available for Participation ensured that. So, in worldly terms, a kind of dwarfism. But also something indefineable, a feeling of pride maybe. That I'd once had the lunacy to abandon everything, to engage myself with something as outrageous as the Divine Light Mission, to cheerfully throw in my lot with hard cases like Mick Locke and John Sheridan and Frannie Wells and Anth Ginn and countless others and follow a boy who declared he had come to bring peace to the world. Those were the days. Now, viewed from without the Monastery walls, I see it differently. I equate the Rawat family with the Windsors, currently occupying the throne of England. Once upon a time I believed Prem Pal Rawat was the Lord. And once upon a time people in England believed in the Divine Right of Kings. It was a confidence trick, of course, but it fooled most of the people most of the time and it very conveniently justified all kinds of crime and misbehaviour. If you have a Divine Right to do something, you can do anything. And if you're on a Divine Mission, it seems, likewise. Times have changed. No one believes in the Divine Right of Kings anymore. We're not that stupid. Yet, amazingly, the Royal Family continues. They adapted. They changed their image. They found a niche for themselves. They call themselves 'The Firm'. To them it's business- of an unusual kind (people still seem to feel the need for them) -but business just the same. And business, let's not forget, makes money. To me, yes, alas, Knowledge is the same. Once outside those Monastery walls it's alarming how susceptible Knowledge is to the most cynical explanation. The fairy tale, once examined, reveals nothing more or less than a family business (of an unusual nature, it's true - but a busness just the same). And business, let's not forget, makes money. There's a necessary journey it seems we all take, from innocence to experience. Then back again to innocence. That second innocence is hard-won. It doesn't come easy. But I feel it's approach. No names, no pack drill. The Creator's love is cast over all. It surely included Maharaji's Monastery, then and now. We played our part, I swear, us many thousands. If there's a vibration, we lifted it. If there's a love, we raised it. We did that, our raggle-taggle army. No denying it. Was our love misplaced? I have to say my sense of it is that it was not. Our focus was Maharaji but only because he seemed to encapsulate, shining up there on his throne like a hologram, our inchoate desire for a world based on love and truth. It made sense that you start with yourself. Nothing wrong with that. We weren't about to invade Poland. We did well that it was in our hearts. That it was in our hearts, yes, we did well. As this will probably be my one and only posting I'm adding the end of a poem about Ulysses, a Greek hero who decided it was time to move on. It's not easy climbing over those Monastery walls and I thought this might give courage to anyone reading this who is, so to speak, straddling the brickwork. So... 'Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world. Push off, and sitting well in order smite The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths Of all the western stars, until I die. It may be that the gulfs will wash us down: It may be we will touch the Happy isles, And see the great Achilles, whom we knew. Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho' We are not now that strength which in old days Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.' That's by Tennyson. And I'd like, as this forum permits, to thank my daughter for obliging me to leave the Monastery and look around and, as she puts, wake up. Thank you,Abi!

Subject: Yeah that's all sweet and nice From: Tonette To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 17:30:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent writing too! Thanks so much. I'm glad to see that you have 'sorted out' your involvement with Maharaji. Kudos. Wonderful. Good luck rebuilding your life. I mean that. It still doesn't change the fact that your daughter at age 8 got raped by one of Maharaji's Mahatmas. It doesn't change the fact that you didn't go to bat for her. It doesn't change history. It doesn't change how you performed as a father. I'm sorry I'm not gushing warm fuzzies your way. Frankly, I take your post as a shallow amends to the very daughter that you did not protect. But your post is so beautiful and intelligent. And you have left the cult. How lovely. Tonette

Subject: OUCH! From: Jim To: Tonette Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 21:16:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God Tonette! I don't know what to say. I'm just reacting ..... I guess the only way I can put it together at this point is to: 1) Accept the fact that Chris is the decent, thoughtful and intelligent person that's reflected in his post; 2) Remember how intense the cult programming was for all of us who took the program seriously; 3) Remember that I'm still at a loss to know exactly what he knew and when. I know that A (we keep talking about dropping her name but everyone keeps using it!) told her father ('C'?) that something had happened and he apparently told the great and trusted saint, Mahatma Guru Charanand. But did C know as much as he knows now? The cult programming might well have made him completely ineffectual to investigate -- that's shame that he can feel but that he can fairly place at the feet of the Master -- but, the fact is, he might not have known; 4) Realize that there's nothing else he can do now to change the past and thus may feel as profoundly as he can about this and thus may well not deserve any criticism as 'shallow'.

Subject: Shit! That was a nasty, mean thing to say. From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 08:03:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Where is my head? More importantly, where is my heart? I don't know him. I don't know what was actually hapening at the time that Abi was raped. He was in a cult that held the Mahatams, instructors, Jagdeo, in the same, or greater esteem, that the Catholic Church elevates their priests. Maharaji was the Pope. Abi has her father back. They love each other. So what if Chris isn't going to hunt down this monster and cut his penis off before stuffing it in his mouth and slitting his throat? The whole treatment of children while their parents were emeshed in Ralwat's world makes my blood boil. I was there, I saw it with my own eyes. But what do I expect? I live in a country, the richest on Earth, where we are number one, or very close to, where the poorest group in our population are children. Where there are 40 million illiterate people. Almost one fifth of our population. Yeah, justice will be served. Us Westerners take such good care of our most innocent, our most vunerable citizens, our future. Right. And Maharaji has no idea what-so-ever, nor anyone within his organization where Jagedo is. Right. It's so unfair. Sorry David got a post from me that was less than welcoming. Tonette

Subject: I almost thought you meant it From: Jim To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:46:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tonette, I think my points were valid. Your sarcasm is so thin in places it's hard for me to tell where you've applied it and where you haven't. Do you even know?

Subject: And now I see you did -- sorry, Tonette From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 22:02:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, Tonette, I really didn't get it at first. Sorry 'bout that.

Subject: Re: Colours To The Mast From: Chris Bray To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 17:50:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All the loving responses, I have to say it, made me cry. Thank you very very much. Now, instead of feeling that little bit lonely, I feel very much embraced. Thanks!!!!!

Subject: Chris and Carla From: Robyn To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 01:54:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Chris and Carla, I sat here reading your posts with tears streaming down my face. Love will set you free, the love for and of your children. I have also taken some honest looks at myself that were inspired by the needs of my children. It is a beautiful dance back and forth sometimes I lead sometimes they do. I wish you all children and parents, love, patience with each other and yourselves and healing. Love, Robyn

Subject: Welcome Chris. What a beautiful letter. From: Crispy To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 08:03:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a mindbender it is to discover what we had held so dear turns out to be false in the end. In this sense, even though I have never met you and Abi, I feel we share the same road. I was deeply moved by your story, and hope you, and Abi, can go on to prove Maharaji wrong by rediscovering and leading your own life without him - fulfilled and undeluded.

Subject: Congratulations. Great dignity. (nt) From: Bryn To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 03:40:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Welcome back Earthling. From: AJW To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 02:38:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Chris, What a surprise to see your wonderful post here. I'm so glad you've managed to step outside the Captain's cult and see the trip we were involved in from another perspective. I've had an inkling on how tough it's been for you through our ongoing correspondance, and I'm really happy you're out of the clouds, back with the rest of us imperfect beings, splashing around on the planet. Well done, and welcome home fellow earthling. Maybe you should drop your agent a line, 'Hi, sorry about that phone call in 73 - I was ensnared in a cult etc... Now, I've got this great idea for a new book...' Take care, Anth, between coffee shops in Brabant.

Subject: Re: Colours To The Mast From: Carla Read To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 00:30:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chris..... Even though I live with and love you everyday, the beauty and profundity of your post surprised and moved me deeply. Twenty-nine years ago at the tender age of 17, I entered into a strange, eerie self containment via devotion to Maharaji (eg.I breathed my way through proceedings around my mother's suicide and didn't feel a thing!) and an invisible but insidious wedge was driven between me and my family. Today I still mourn that loss and know ahead of me is a painfull dislodgement and a long, slow healing. What awaits us, and it has begun, is a conscious embrace of familial love. Human love -in all its imperfection and perfection. For Abi and Dylan, Ivan, Josh,Mischa, Luke, Jess and Grace - all our shared children - the healing begins. 'Tho' much is taken, much abides...' Your Partner in Lunacy, Carla

Subject: Hi Carla From: AJW To: Carla Read Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 02:42:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Carla, Welcome to the Blunderdome. I can almost feel the walls tumbling down from here. Hope you and everyone is well, happy, and enjoying life. You're dead right when you say what awaits is familial love. This is far, far superior to 'Rawat's love', which travels one way only, and gets there much faster if attached to a bank note. A new life begins. Anth, cash prefered.

Subject: Thanks, Carla From: PatC To: Carla Read Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 01:37:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You guys sound like a wonderful family. Best wishes, Patrick Conlon, San Francisco.

Subject: I love you Carla! From: Abi To: Carla Read Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 01:14:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm very proud to have you as my step-mother. The things you said about family made me cry. lots of love from me and Dylan xx

Subject: Thank you Chris,plus a ? for you... From: la-ex To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 19:46:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you so much Chris. Your courage and honesty are obvious and inspiring. Posts like yours help many people, far and wide, now and in the future as well. All of the pieces help put the puzzle together. I have one question for you. Would you be comfortable in sharing anythng about your meeting with maharaji in amaroo? Personal encounters are always interesting and helpful in the process of understanding the process we were in for so long. Of course, if you are not comfortable with this, I understand, but if you are, it can be helpful to others. Congratulations, and welcome home!

Subject: Re: Colours To The Mast From: Jenny To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 16:53:53 (PDT) Email Address: None Message: Dear Chris, I write with tears in my eyes. Such was the power, humanity and spirit of your very moving post. Through your words I looked back at those monastery walls that I too have scaled, after a stint at straddling the brickworks. Touched beyond measure for the journey you undertook, and so eloquently described. Testament that the love, aspirations and hopes believed to be housed and defined only behind those walls are not lost, but in reality have a much broader context and arena than the court of the king we believed was the only way. Tennyson's inspiring, sweet words at the end were truly uplifting. Wishing you and your family the best of everything. love, Jenny

Subject: Re: Colours To The Mast From: Gallowa' Hills To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 14:47:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: god bless you Chris

Subject: Thank you so much, Chris From: Richard To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:38:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Chris, You have given a voice to the incredible empty place inside that once could move mountains. You do us all a great honor by speaking so eloquently of the part we played and the love we still share. Our passion and humanity can never be stolen - thank you for reminding me of that. The love you express for your daughter is touching. I am spending a week with my 95 year old father who is recovering from a broken hip. The bond between a parent and child is truly great and I am so happy that I can be here for him as he was for me. To love and be loved is wonderful indeed. I am sobbing as I read your beautiful words. I hear the pain of your difficult decision, I am outraged at Abi's betrayal, I grieve our collective betrayal and I mourn my dear dad's loss of mobility. I feel so much compassion right now and it is wonderful. Thank you and all the best to you and Abi. I respect Abi beyond measure and now I can say the same goes for you. Richard Rogers

Subject: Comments and a question From: Pat W To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:21:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Firstly to Chris if you're there. It's always inspiring to hear from somebody who has made a stand for their conscience, especially under your circumstances. So thank you for taking the time to nail your colours to the mast...it had to be done didn't it? To Abi: Your father's true colours shone through in the end and I'm very happy for you both. A general question (since Chris has indicated that might not be posting here again) - please forgive my ignorance but - is Chris Bray the same gentleman who I heard Maharaji met with personally at Amaroo a while ago? There is a premie rumour around here that Maharaji sort of apologised to him for Jagdeo's behaviour and set the matter straight (in his own mind one can only presume). Certainly some premies are impressed that this meeting demonstrates that Maharaji has shown 'sufficient' concern about the Jagdeo incident and so the matter is sort of 'closed'. If this is true though, then clearly Chris was pretty unimpressed with Maharaji's sincerity on that occasion. I'd quite like to tell those premies who are dismissing the Jagdeo scandal as 'dealt with appropriately' by the Master that despite Maharaji's condolences to the victims father, he and his daughter have not been impressed enough to continue following him. So is Chris the gentleman who met with M or was it some other victim's father... please someone?

Subject: Re: Comments and a question From: Cynthia To: Pat W Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:55:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Abi has requested that we don't discuss this issue anymore. Please don't start a new discussion about it. I hope I don't sound rude but it's Abi's decision. Thanks, Cynthia

Subject: The horns of a dilemma From: PatD To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 13:05:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree with both you & PatW.I won't say any more.

Subject: Cynth, check email [nt] From: Jim To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:59:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Colours To The Mast From: CA (aka Coming Around) To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:44:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As one who is just in the process of rubbing my eyes and waking up from a 30 year trance, I thank you for your inspiring post.. I hope you continue to post... besides getting it out for your own benifit, it truely helps people like me that are just coming to grips with the fact that life does go on without M & K, and I'm sure that in time,the initial emotions I'm experiencing (bitterness,emptiness, regret, etc.) will be replaced with the joy of living life without the chains of devotion to someone who sucessfully played (as you put so well), a 'confidence trick' on me. Best of life to you and your daughter.

Subject: That's the most moving post I've ever read here From: hamzen To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:24:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And I am so pleased for you both that you were able to make the transition. But I'm especially pleased for Abi, you so deserve this abi. Chris you're courage and honesty is very inspiring, and your analysis of the dynamics of the transition spot on. Big up to you. Very very heartening, and proves yet again the value of this forum to me.

Subject: Courage beyond measure From: Marianne To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 08:47:27 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Chris: The courage and strength you and Abi have displayed is incomparable. Congratulations on reclaiming the closeness of your relationship with each other. My admiration for the two of you is boundless. Much love, Marianne

Subject: Hey, I thought you were blocked! From: Jim To: Marianne Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 08:59:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My admiration for the two of you is boundless. Dangerous cult tendencies showing there, Marianne. The Committee requests that you tune into your rear, left molar for further instructions. :)

Subject: Re: Colours To The Mast From: Cynthia To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 08:39:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Chris, Thanks for talking about your new life without Maharaji. Thank you also for making the choice to defend and uplift your wonderful daughter Abi. Considering the circumstances, what you have done is unique and rare. You had extraordinary obstacles to overcome to reach this place of understanding and I thank you so much. Abi has her father back...nothing is more wonderful than that. Best to you and love to Abi, Cynthia

Subject: A Father.... From: Dermot To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 08:10:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Glad to hear you've extricated yourself( with Abi's help) from Rawats personality cult Chris. Very best wishes to you, your daughter and your grand-son. Cheers Dermot

Subject: Gentle powerful words From: Carl To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 07:51:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chris, your words carry such a depth of feeling. All who wander for years within Rawat's house of mirrors -- the mad 'monastery' -- and live to escape it, (and escape it to live) will have their own epic journey to relate. You have touched a deep chord, and I hope you will continue to post, to share your insights as you tell your story. Yes, we took a long detour, giving away our best intentions, our earnest and eager innocence toward a greedy horder upon whom we projected our yearnings. I agree that our sincerity itself was beautiful but, in my opinion, it was indeed quite misplaced. We never needed the middleman, and fell for the 'confidence trick', and kept ourselves in thrall out of a subtle cosmic dread. And I say 'epic' without irony. Each person who cherishes something of integrity and decency and intelligence and compassion can't help but to be on a journey toward the deepening of these qualities. It sums to a love of life, and of whatever/whoever brought us here. Who are royalty? Not the Windsors, nor poseurs such as Rawat. A long time ago I found this quote by John Ruskin that I cut out and put in my wallet, to reflect upon from time to time: 'He only is advancing in life, whose heart is getting softer, whose blood warmer, whose brain quicker, whose spirit is entering into living peace. And the men who have this life in them are the true lords or kings of the earth -- they, and they only.' I certainly hope you will continue to bring your valuable perspective to this discussion. It will free many. Best wishes, Carl

Subject: Thank you Dad From: Abi To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:56:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Dad, I think you are wonderful, strong, brave and wise. Lots of love from me and Dylan XXXX

Subject: Thanks so much! From: Will To: Abi Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 07:07:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks so much to Abi's Dad!!!! Be well, Abi!!!

Subject: love to you both [nt] From: Loaf To: Abi Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 04:31:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hi Abi From: Kelly To: Abi Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 04:00:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How nice to see you here as well, I have been thinking about you so much but have not wanted to intrude. This is such good news, I'm so pleased for you. Lots of love Karen

Subject: How wonderful to see you here To The Mast From: Kelly To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:44:26 (PDT) Email Address: karen@ringrose.org.uk Message: and even more wonderful that you have woken from the cult trance and stepped outside the momastery walls. Great analogy. Thank you for that beautiful and very moving post, I am just so glad for you and Abi that you are out. Please give Abi my love, and very best wishes to you for you future as a free man. Karen

Subject: the scales have fallen from your eyes From: welcome out, Chris To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 02:58:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: it's a big world, out here, is it not? freedom is bracing. breathtaking vistas, uncharted territory, of the self, of the world. we made it, so we belong in it. to see you here, today, like this, is a tremendous blast of courage and morale lifting for me, in a way you could never have known you would be. that your daughter would bring forth this strength, this risk, from you, has massive impact on me. as one parent to another, I ask you not to go from us. please--say more. I am listening. i am drinking in your words, your realizations, your courage. i need to hear them right now. I am going thru a terrifying passage myself, with my son. he is leaving me. it is changing my entire world. listening to you, taking such vast steps away from your set life of 26 years, for the sake of your daughter, pours into me the will to also accept facing such vast changes for the sake of my son. stay on and say more, Chris. this is powerful and needfull stuff. I must pay attention and grip onto this. please do not go. thank you for coming. your timing , speaking these words on this day, was meant to be. Janet schwartz mother of stepan hurlburt

Subject: Re: Colours To The Mast From: Bolly Shri To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 02:58:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you, what you wrote resonates with a current difficulty I am having with my offspring. Exiting the cult has enabled me to start the process of rebuilding damage that took years to create. Thirty years building your life on someone elses dream and carrying your children into it is a hard thing to reconcile with ones concience. What you said about the Windsors is very true. I think they sustain it with an acute awareness that were they to slip from entertaining the masses with their pecadilloes and foibles, we might well notice they stole all the good land for themselves and their cronies. I hope things continue to improve for you, as they have for me through throwing off the yoke of subservience. Love and good wishes, Bolly

Subject: Re: Colours To The Mast From: Gail To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 06:15:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you so much for your post. It is very inspirational.

Subject: To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield From: PatC To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 01:11:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you Chris, from the bottom of my heart. I can't tell you how moved I was to read your post. You brought tears to my eyes many times not least because of your wonderful old-fashioned chivalrousness but because of your way with words and...well, I'm speechless. What a wonderful man you must be. If I believed that there was any way to send you love I would. ''Was our love misplaced?'' you asked and answered; ''I have to say my sense of it is that it was not. Our focus was Maharaji but only because he seemed to encapsulate, shining up there on his throne like a hologram, our inchoate desire for a world based on love and truth.'' You're well out of it, Chris. Welcome back to the human race where such ideals are valued by the people who matter and good riddance to a really creepy ''Monastery'' where all that seems to matter anymore is the superstitious nonsense surrounding the ''Master.'' Thank goodness so beautiful a person as you escaped. Thank you for telling us.

Subject: Bright, beautiful colours! From: Francesca To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 23:02:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you so much for your well-stated and heartfelt post. Much love to you and Abi. Francesca

Subject: Re: Colours To The Mast From: JHB To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 22:53:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chris, I have tears in my eyes reading this. Well done. John.

Subject: Absolutely beautiful post! From: Jim To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 22:51:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chris, Now I know where Abi gets her smarts. Truly wonderful post and thanks oh so much for taking the time to express yourself here. I hope that you stick around because you just sound like a neat guy to get to know a bit. I really like Abi and have gotten to know her a bit, as have many of us, not just on the forum but also through email and the odd phone call. Chris, if you would ever like to email me I'd be grateful. I feel like I actually know you somewhat through Abi and wouldn't mind talking with you if you're willing. Thanks again, Jim Email's jimheller@shaw.ca

Subject: Bravo Chris, Love to you and Abi XXX(nt) From: Bai Ji To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 22:45:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Bravo Chris, Love to you and Abi XXX(nt) From: AV To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 01:33:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank u soooooooooo much, a post I would be proud to read to anyone...how strong love is.

Subject: Respect From: Vicki To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 05:56:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You have my heartfelt respect. To come to the aid of your daughter, to not let an entire kingdom stand between you and her, is incredibly brave. She is a most wonderful person and she has a most wonderful father. May the rest of your life, her life and your grandchild's be filled with true love, true joy and true happiness. The love of a family is indeed a great gift. Thank you for sharing.

Subject: Welcome Chris and Carla From: John Macgregor To: Vicki Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 05:22:30 (PDT) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: Welcome aboard Chris and Carla, You won't regret it for a second. Great posts. Love, John

Subject: RIP. Stephen Jay Gould (ot. I guess..) From: Nigel To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:21:43 (PDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Truly I am cut up about this. It was only last week my co-founder of Friends of Charles Darwin told me in the pub that Gould was probably terminally ill... If you haven't read any of his essays, please do so. If you haven't read any of his books, then try 'The Panda's Thumb', or, especially, 'The Mismeasure of Man'. Truly brilliant. Who knows, they might even stay in print longer than the collected satsangs of Shri Hans... Sorry, but I am in tears right now. Seriously. I will do a longer post in the next couple of days. A proper attempted tribute. Along with Dawkins, this guy changed (possibly saved?) my life from terminal cult-think forever. 'Science is not a heartless pursuit of objective information. It is a creative human activity, its geniuses acting more as artists than as information processors' Amen and RIP. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1999000/1999341.stm

Subject: Fitting tributes - better than.. From: Nigel To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 04:41:49 (PDT) Email Address: NIgel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: ...I could do. From Steven Rose and Steve Jones in today's Guardian. No, I don't know whay the hell you have to be called 'Steve' to become an acclaimed biologist, but there you have it - just one of those things, I guess. ('Nigel's, I have noticed in drama and fiction, tend to be prats, toffs or bastards). BTW: I like the bit about 'Darwin wars' where Steven Rose makes the often-missed point that Gould and Dawkins, both Darwinians through and through, agreed with one another on far more than they disagreed. Guardian obit www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4418543,00.html

Subject: Re: RIP. Stephen Jay Gould (ot. I guess..) From: Scott T. To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 21:56:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nigel: I heard it was abestos poisoning that led to cancer. Very sad. I dunno. I see something very profound in the laws of probability and statistics, but felt his insights and explanations were clear and invaluable; even if they don't particularly resolve all the deep questions about the origin and course of 'life.' I also don't agree with his conclusions about the *place* of man in that cosmology, but removing from the agenda those cherished beliefs that simply *can't* be true is worth a lot. And he was spot on about baseball. Batters aren't worse just because the last 400 hitter was 55 years ago. It's just that the game has 'tightened up' so that the variance is smaller. No way would Ted Williams or Rogers Hornsby or Ty Cobb be hitting 400 today, even in their best form. But the mean batting average is right where it was in 1900. Hasn't moved a bit. --Scott

Subject: Sorry for you, Nige From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 18:09:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nige, I just could never get into any of his stuff but if you really think it's worth the effort, I'll try again. Which? Sorry fo you, Nige.

Subject: It's ok - the moment has passed.. From: Nigel To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 14:35:21 (PDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Actually, given the fact he held two professorships and had that publication record etc., I'd say SJG had as happy and fulfilled a life as anyone could reasonably hope for. Which books? Hard to say, really - it's a matter of taste but I like his books of essays a lot (eg. 'Panda's Thumb' and 'Bully for Brontasaurus'). I wouldn't recommend anyone attempting to read 'Wonderful Life' though, unless they are obsessively fascinated by Pre-Cambrian fossils. Actually, I am just sad that another great popular scientific communicator has gone - like Richard Feynman and Carl Sagan, not so long ago. Always a shame - there are so few of them who do it well etc., against the massed ranks of Creationism, pseudoscience, new-age garbage. They should all be treasured whilst still around, I think. More important - they left their mark and in a very real sense are still with us.

Subject: NB: Stephen Jay Gould From: Nigel To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:51:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Typed in haste, I corrected the spelling with the post editor, but it doesn't appear like that on the forum index.

Subject: Random cruelty of godless planet From: Moley To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:08:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: or divine wisdom of all-seeing, all-knowing creator - take your pick.

Subject: OK 'God' (AKA Rawat !?)- so you exist do you? From: Moley To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:35:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well I guess it makes perfect sense that you do. As you are the 'Superior-Power-in-Person' you can then do what the hell you like - can't you? Who are we to protest, we are all equally disposable, and none of us can know your grand fucking plan. Well, bully for you and fuck off - I'd rather do without you.

Subject: After the shock comes courage From: Vicki To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:28:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When a premie finds there was more going on than just stage behavior, usually shock is the first reaction. I've been surprised by those that excuse the behavior. One sorta Pam, and connected to Pams, said that she knows all this, initiators know all this, they don't get it, they don't get M, they get screwed up if they think about it, and instead just listen to satsang and practice the techniques. They go to programs and Amaroo, but they don't understand the bizzar behavior, nor particularly like it. It makes one wonder, then, why one wouldn't disentangle theirself? An interesting phenomenom occurs with parents whose kids I have spent time with. They pay huge amounts of money to go to an exclusive private school that is poorly run, with bad curriculum giving their children inferior academic abilities, the teachers wave favoritism around, the school politics further a caste mentallity among the parents and children, the kids are in crisis and the parents on the edge of nervous breakdowns, yet they stay. Why, I constantly ask, would they pay for such abuse? Because they can't tear themselves away from the perceived exclusive environment, and that only 'losers' leave or are forced out. The parents that finally have had enough of their child being hurt call it quits, even if their social standing suffers. It takes an awful lot of honest courage to extricate one's child and one's self from a dysfunctional, unhealthy environment. It wouldn't seem so, but it does. Those that stay, feel somehow they can't manage without these schools, their entire social image is tied into them and they have become completely dependent on these structures, despite the harm to their children. The amazing thing is, most were well meaning parents who only wanted a good education for their child, whether they could afford it or not. After they are out for a while, and experience a healthy academic environment, they can't believe they tolerated one minute of abuse towards their child, or were part of the parent pta hierarchy, vying for top billing. The crux of the matter is, it takes grit and fortitude to get oneself out of an unhealthy place no matter where it is.

Subject: ...or Denial From: PW To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:08:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that Vikki. It strikes me that the reason that many premies accept Maharaji's less delightful personality traits and behaviour, even though they may be uncomfortable about it, is that we are all probably more creatures of habit than we care to imagine and so premies are simply not in the habit of questioning the Master. I think that the main area that these premies have maybe not given much consideration to (unwisely), is the much bandied postulation that a master's private behaviour is not a criteria by which one can make judgements about the efficacy of his teaching. I was considering this the other day. I have a very old friend (from school actually) who scorned all my attempts to impress him about Maharaji and Knowledge when I first became a premie (1974) but who for some bizarre reason decided that by the early eighties, that Knowledge and M was the way to go. Whether he consciously or subconsciously 'waited' for Maharaji to tone the whole trip down or not before joining up I cannot say. All I know as that he missed out on the period when Maharaji was making much more life changing demands on his followers whether it be through the intimidating tone of his former satsangs (as exemplified in Kissimee), the more Indian style philosophy and trappings, (Arti, pranaming, etc etc.) the need to surrender to Him, (Ashrams) or the general encouragement to make sacrifices to serve Him and dedicate every moment to practicing Knowledge, seeing Him etc. So this friend is a great example of someone who has 'Knowledge Lite' as it has come to be known. I, on the other hand, have a totally different experience and was subject to quite different demands. From 17 to 25 I believed that I should give up meat, drugs and alcohol and sex largely because Maharaji had defined those 'renunciations' as being sort of requisite standards of behaviour if you were really serious about 'Realising Knowledge' or following Him. My pal was not co-erced or 'encouraged' to do any of those things and consequently has no personal regrets. Try as I might I simply cannot forgive and forget that Maharaji re-awakened and played on the fears and beliefs that I had accrued from my 'middle-class Christian upbringing' (which I had been making a fairly good job on my own of rejecting up until he came along) and in effect burdened me with a load of stuff that I did not need and subsequently have had to unload through my own efforts. My friend seems to have been impressed that it was somehow my, and the early premies fault that we somehow created this more Indian religious cult and therefore have only ourselves to blame for corrupting the innocent Maharaji. He simply has bought the wishful thinking that we misinterpreted and corrupted Maharaji and his message and are now the whining losers. The point of all this is that now my friend really does feel that his Master's private behaviour is IRRELEVANT TO HIS PERSONAL EXPERIENCE whereas I of course have been at the receiving end of some of Maharaji's mistakes and so naturally cannot say the same. The disturbing thing though is that my friend is aparently so besotted with his 'personal experience' that he seems to be entirely incapable of any empathy towards people who got a raw deal. To me this is just another example of the fundamentally savage and selfish nature of human beings. The question is 'To what degree is it Right or Wrong to ignore someone's faults because one feels that the good they do outweighs their bad effects?' I expect we could all think of lieterally dozens of people who we could apply this to and we would probably in truth realise that we encounter this dilemma quite frequently in our daily relationships. My answer to this problem generally is to make sure that my involvement with such people is not contributing in any way to their 'Negativity' as I perceive it. In short I feel compelled to avoid any interaction with them which may encourage or be perceived as endorsing or empowering their bad behaviour. Also, when I feel that I have a fair chance of successfully communicating with them or indeed others who know that person, with regard to the errors of their ways I will generally do so if I think I can affect a healthy change. In the case of such a person who is also doing something I admire or is giving me something I enjoy or that enriches my life, but who does other things that I dissapprove of, I will make a distinction and support them ONLY in the things that they do which I deem positive or harmless and if I can, dissuade them from their other wrong-doings. As premies we clearly saw Maharaji as someone with massive redeeming qualities because we were prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt for many years. So, in my opinion, what has changed is that I have gradually made the 'ethical' choice to make a distinction between the things that Maharaji says or does that I approve of and those that I don't. I don't think that I, personally, have ever launched into a 'Carte Blanche' criticism of Maharaji where I have sought to demonise his every motive and character trait. To the contrary I have been quite careful to criticise only those things that I perceive to be his faults. Frankly I do the same for my best friends. I would say that my persistence in writing here has actually quite a lot to do with the degree of care and love I had for Maharaji over the years. Something in us wants to change our loved ones if we find fault in them. Often we are frustrated in our attempts. I detect that frustration in a few premies I know who have been around a long time. There are indeed things about Maharaji that they dissapprove of and, as we can see by Premie Nobody's post the other day, they occasionally voice criticism to Maharaji himself. At the end of the day however I don't think they have confidence that they can, through their mild demonstrations, hope to affect much change in Maharaji and so they simply just give up or do not bother. If others suffer they will maybe express some empathy (as a number of PAMs have done with me) but will basically hold to the un-idealistic notion that Maharaji is NOT for everyone or more callously, that 'to make an omelette involves breaking a few eggs'. To my mind it is essential that ALL those people who are in positions of power over others, whether through a process of democratic election or through their own charismatic effect, are subject to right and just criticism of their behaviours which adversely effect others. Even if Maharaji has changed and is now a perfectly harmless 'Leader' should he rightly be allowed to remain unnaccountable for his past errors of judgement? I don't think so. I think that Maharaji is essentially guilty of not fulfilling his part of the bargain to take care of people who put themselves in his care and entrusted their well-being both spiritually and materially to him. With regard to the former he owes those, like us who simply find his behaviour and ever-changing 'Agya' confusing, some clear explanation and even apology. To the latter, who gave their time and money he may be could be successfully argued to owe some material recompense, since, certainly in the case of the ashrams, his stated plan was that people were committing themselved there, into his care, for life. I'm not holding my breath on that one. If it was even partly his mistake to accept these peoples great sacrifice, it is little wonder that it should be perceived as hugely insulting and devastating in terms of respect and trust, that whilst offering them no recompense or apology (for side-tracking them from earning their own livings) he continues to benefit and flaunt the invested fruits of their very labours in a most arrogant way and to add salt to their wounds... brags about the astuteness of his business acumen to have attained such wealth - to all intents and purposes as if he were trying to create the impression that he was the most honourable and clever of self-made men. Even Toad of Toad Hall's naive self-pride pales alongside Maharaji's image of himself as some sort of super-brilliant person who excels in everything he does. Possibly the most telling proven dissonant fact about Maharaji's life OUGHT to be, that he has been so clearly embarassed enough about his private life and confusions, that drove him presumably to alcoholism, that he actively sought to hide select parts of it from his followers. In short his eagerness to cover up the seamier-side of his private life proves that he himself KNOWS that that side of his behaviour was hypocritical and dishonest. At the very least he was ashamed of his weaknessness whilst wanting to be perceived as a man of inner strength. I personally was told by a PAM prior to meeting with Maharaji for the first time, that I should not speak about the things that I 'might' see around Maharaji's private life because premies might find it confusing. Personally I didn't see anything particularly untoward at the time and was mildly surprised that he even mentioned it, but I can now see that Maharaji's privacy was guarded vigorously for the very reason that he knew he was sometimes behaving very hypocritically. The bottom line is that a dishonest and hypocritical teacher or leader can under NO circumstances be deemed as trustworthy and is by definition a danger to his pupils. Or is there a circumstance where there is an exception to this rule? Well, with a leader like say Clinton, who was dishonest about his sexual habits, there is the big difference that he was not preaching celibacy and of course the fact that he had the decency to publically apologise and confess his dishonesty and acknowledge it's innappropriateness. Nevertheless, it behoves all teachers and leaders to demonstrate that they practice what they preach and have truly earned and will not betray the trust that is invested in them. Finally at the back of every premies mind lurks the concept of 'Lila.' At this point rationality seems to go, once and for all, completely out of the window- which, my guess, is part of the appeal. If the Master behaves badly then it is simply to test the faith of his devotees. This notion basically thereby holds up that 'blind faith' in a particular person is something good - something important to aspire to. Essentially an extremely dangerous notion. I guess that this notion relies on the hope and historical suggestion that there is such a thing as a Saviour of Mankind in the first place, who requires only absolute belief and trust before he saves you. The nearest I've ever got to understanding this theory is that by abandoning yourself and your better reason so totally you might achieve some kind of death of your 'Self' or your Ego and maybe find some 'ocean of consciousness' beyond. In practice it seems that far from seeing a bunch of shining egoless- God conscious 'drops of the infinite ocean' we instead are met with people who clearly have failed to lose their ego's despite their consistent faith, and who instead have rather ill-formed egos which are not carefully developed or checked by an active conscience or sense of ethics -not kept in check by any self-doubt and yet display little reflection of the glorious consciousness of God/ Knowledge of Self which is aspired to. In fact we just see people whose personalities and egos are floundering in a sort of limbo where the only ethics that they can aspire to are those of the Master who's ego and personality are currently preoccuppied with acting out a Lila to test everbody and are subsequently of the off-putting variety.

Subject: As an afterthought... From: PW To: PW Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 17:41:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... to my last post I might add that the premie friend I was referring to cannot bear to discuss the Maharaji matter with me at all now. In fact even though he knows that I have a lot to say about it, he just looks both utterly disgusted and appalled if I even touch on the subject. He has withdrawn his willingness to discuss but there is an unresolved tension when we meet as a result - 'cos secretly he longs to talk. He is one of those premies who, as I said, are so besotted with their PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that they are prepared to let M persuade them that it should remain jealousy guarded and unchallenged. I think that Maharaji has emphasised that this experience is so PRIVATE - supposedly sacrosanct and between YOU and HIM on the deepest level of your heart's longing that he has succeeded in convincing premies that their experience is kind of vulnerable and needs to be nurtured very, very privately or else it could be sort of trodden on by doubting Thomases like me. Hence all the secrecy about the techniques etc... I have to confess that I resent that Maharaji comes along and establishes this private, secret sacrosanct relationship with my long-standing friends which makes them feel they cannot discuss their deepest experiences and longings any more. We used to have a pact to have no secrets! Funnily enough when I was at school , a small circle of friends (including this guy) became very committed to finding God and Truth through every available means - at first through the Christian groups and then Mescaline and LSD! We forged a deep bond and the idea that some Guru would come along and drive a wedge between our communication - forbidding us to discuss or analyse our experiences - would have been anathema. We knew we were sincere and there were no precious secrets. There are only a couple of dear honest brave souls left who aren't scared to discuss their Maharaji relationship. When I was 17 I discovered Premies and was delighted to find generally a brotherhood of souls with the same intentions, honesty and commitment to Truth as myself. Not all, but most premies had an innocent enthusiasm and real sincerity - and certainly none of this 'I can't talk about it -it's too precious - it's between me and my M'raji' dreaminess. We still valued each other and got inspiration from each other. There was even , dare I say, some revolutionary spirit and real brotherly love and maybe some real magic. Few premies still show this openess and fresh desire to move on towards Truth. I used to have literally hundreds of premie friends around here and now, of those that are left who could be described as 'practicing premies' , only a very few will ever be friendly or get in touch. Funnily enough, it's people like Glen and some other of the more old-school premies (who presumably appreciate the earnestness of ex-premies!) who are the most friendly and unthreatened by my presence when I see them. I am actually very warmed by their continued friendliness because it is far from the norm. All the other 'community' premies look at me as some kind of raving Judas I think. They are clearly horrendously threatened and/ or glare at me with utter dissapproval and clenched teeth. You can almost hear the knives being sharpened. I confess I don't particularly miss the premie scene at all, in fact I am really quite delighted to find myself free from having to spend my time in the company of people with pencils firmly embedded up their bottoms... and I can get on with my life better without their uptight influence. Also I feel that their reticence to socialise with me confirms that they have got the message that someone is prepared to champion the cause of Doubt! and that there is truly life after Knowledge and that there's no need to fear expressing your misgivings. Apart from that, I have a bunch of friends who sensibly gave up on the whole thing years ago and there are also actually a lot of quite ardent exes who I see from time to time around here . It's ironic, because sometimes I will have been meditating gloriously and be floating along blissfully without giving Maharaji any gratitude! and I will bump into some premie who will twitch and contort and look so uncomfortable and I will be thinking 'Hey, I'm having that experience you think is so exclusive and is tied up with Maharaji and yet you are more uptight and freaked out than me because you think I can't possibly be 'in that place' - Wrong!' PW

Subject: Two excellent posts from Pat W [nt] From: Livia To: PW Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 04:24:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: But what would you expect? :) [nt] From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 09:02:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yes, we've gotten tired of thanking him From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 10:13:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We just expect him to write excellent posts all the time without any gratitude from us - purely as selfless service. :C)

Subject: Re: Yes, we've gotten tired of thanking him From: PatW To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:39:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ha Ha! yes don't bother to offer me any encouragement... This forum serves me well as a repository for my current ruminations and realisations about Maharaji and Knowledge. I offer them publically not just to get feedback (which is of course welcome) but because I find it very theraputic and stimulating just to write down my constantly evolving thoughts. If anyone else finds a positive resonance in my keyboard tappings or disagrees then that's great. You're spot on though - I don't need any encouragement! Tee hee. Sometimes I am amazed that anyone bothers to read my lengthy, probably verbose, posts. Look..I'm sorry..I just can't help it. I'm just a hopeless, compulsive soliloquist. I think I must have caught the habit from someone...can't think who though...

Subject: Your post was too short From: JHB To: PatW Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 05:11:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I reached the end without having to take a toilet break. John the forgotten what a hill looks like let alone giving satsang on top of one.

Subject: Re: After the shock comes courage From: Livia To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 12:44:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They tell themselves that Maharaji's bizarre behaviour is lila, or whatever the current concept is, or some kind of a test. They also tell themselves that to question it shows them up as being stuck in their concepts of what a teacher of self-knowledge is supposed to be like. I've seen this many times on LG and have heard premies say it too. I used to think it myself! The problem with all that is that one's own ethics and morals become skewed as a result, and then you have to rationalise that too, and so on, and so on, and so on, until you become some weird imitation of the person you once were.

Subject: mid-week humour (totally OT) From: cq To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 09:26:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's an old one, but it's a sweetie: After gaining a small family inheritance, a redneck family was visiting a mall. The father and son were strolling around while the wife shopped. They were amazed by almost everything they saw, but especially by two shiny, silver walls that could move apart and then slide back together again. The boy asked, 'Paw, What's 'at?' The father (never having seen an elevator) responded, 'Son, I dunno. I ain't never seen anything like that in my entire life, I ain't got no idea'r what it is.' While the boy and his father were watching with amazement, a fat old lady in a wheel chair rolled up to the moving walls and pressed a button. The walls opened and the lady rolled between them into a small room. The walls closed and the boy and his father watched the small circular numbers above the walls light up sequentially. They continued to watch until it reached the last number and then the numbers began to light in the reverse order. Finally the walls opened up again and a gorgeous, voluptuous 24-year-old blonde woman stepped out. The father, not taking his eyes off the young woman, said quietly to his son: 'Boy, go git yer Ma.'

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: AV To: cq Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 10:49:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: '' Yorkshire clubbers have recently resorted to using dental syringes to inject Ecstacy directly into the mouth: this lethal practise is know as 'E BY GUM', and should be reported immediately.'' :~) :~)

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for anybody From: Been There To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 22:19:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What do a dyslexic, an insomniac and an agnostic have in common? They stay up all night wondering if there really is a 'Dog'.

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: Neville To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 08:02:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Unless they're dyslexic clubbers. Then they inject F. Neville

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: AV To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:05:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or a rich dyslexic pimp who opened a warehouse...

Subject: or the dyslexic alcoholic ... From: cq To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:06:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: or the dyslexic alcoholic ... ... who choked on his own Vimto

Subject: Re: or the dyslexic depressive.. From: AV To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 13:59:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or the dyslexic depressive with diarrhoea who couldn't decide whether the bottom had fallen out of his world, or the world had fallen out of his bottom..

Subject: or the dyslexic devil-worshipper From: cq To: AV Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 09:39:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... sold his soul to Santa

Subject: would that be giving it some F'in mouth? (nt) From: cq To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 09:13:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: would that be giving it some F'in mouth?

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: Bolly Shri To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:01:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I might try that,

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: Thorin To: AV Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 12:19:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: LOL - hilarious. If that is only mid-week, I eagerly waiting for the weekend humour.

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: AV To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 12:50:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That costs extra!! weekend rates, doncha know old bean ;-);-);-);-) ;~)

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: Thorin To: AV Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:45:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some say I am a millionaire, some say I am penniless. How say you to 10 pence or a used luncheon voucher?

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: AV To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:05:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK u win, this is for a used luncheon vulture Guy goes into a bar and walks up to a woman; He says 'if I give you five bucks, will you have sex with me??' ' Certainly not!!!'... she retorts 'so what if I give you a million bucks, will you have sex then??' 'er...sure'...she says, fussing up her hair.. 'ah, so you ARE a hooker!' he says. 'FUCK NO! ..' she yells...'whatever gave you that idea??' 'well , I thought we were just negotiating a price...' (duh..)

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: Jethro To: AV Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 13:05:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anyone see the IQ test last week? The town with the lowest IQ was Burnley. This was the only town that voted in 2 National Fronters in local elections last week. For non-Brits: this is not a joke

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: Livia To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:57:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A brain and a jump-lead go into a pub for a drink. The brain goes up to the bar to order a couple of pints of beer. 'Sorry', says the barman. 'I'm not serving you. In fact, you'll have to leave, I'm afraid.' 'But why?' pleads the brain 'Well, you're out of your head and your mate here looks as if he's about to start something.' Love, Liv

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:09:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Polar bear goes into a bar, walks up to the bar... 'pint of lager aaaaannndddd..............................................................................................a bag of nuts' 'sure' says the barman, but why the long paws?' xxx

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: Thorin To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 01:50:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Horse in a bar, barman says, why the long face? Quick, we had better take this thread offline, before the FAs get onto our case. Meet you over there --- > Where? < --- - there forget it :) T

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits :) From: cq To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 04:06:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Man goes into a bar with a steering wheel sticking out of the front of his trousers. Barman says: 'Did you know you have a steering wheel sticking out of the front of your trousers?' 'Yeah' says the man, 'it's driving me nuts'. (love that one about the E by gum, AV) :)

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits :) From: Thorin To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 05:00:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cq there does'nt seem to be a great deal of appetite for a spiritual ex forum wheras there is for a Humour Ex forum. Fancy being the FA? best, Thorin PS why was 6 scared of 7? Because 789

Subject: You sound reasonable... From: cq To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 09:44:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You sound reasonable... must be time to up my medication. How about a forum for ex-premie Mensan divorcees from Ealing Broadway who used to work for the BBC and who can touch the tip of their nose with their tongue? Nah, - way too much specialisation. Remember the bosses' first law of management: 'No job is so urgent that you can't find someone else to do it'.

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits :) From: *Lamer* To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 09:21:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some possible lame rules for a future Humour Forum: ( Note: not to be taken seriously) ;) : - 1) Always be sincere, even if you don't mean it. If you stop to think,, don't forget to start again. 2) Do not believe anything you hear or anything you say on this forum. All generalizations are false; and if anyone refutes you with statistics, remember -- 63% of all statistics are meaningless. 3) Re ethnic jokes -- all nationalities will be allowed to contribute, so that the Brits do not dominate. Oopelai ;) 4) Sexual harrassment on this forum will not be reported. However, it WILL be graded. 5) Those who agree with you may not be right, but you can admire their perspicacity. However, if they question your motives, don't force the issue -- get a larger hammer. Try not to threaten to break a critic's limb --- I believe five out of four people have trouble with fractions. (suggested by: Trailer Park Crispy)

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits :) From: AV To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 09:16:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: where do you go to weigh a pie?? er..somewhere...over the rainbow? sorry..:@)

Subject: the cat's whiskers ... From: cq To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 10:43:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Kittens' Maharaji is out on Malibu Main Street one afternoon and he notices a little boy on the corner with a box. Curious he strolls over to the child and says, 'What's in the box kid?' To which the little boy says, 'Kittens, they're brand new kittens.' Maharaji laughs and says, 'What kind of kittens are they?' 'Premies,' the child says. 'Oh that's cute,' M says and he waddles off. A couple of days later Maharaji is out taking a stroll with his pal Jonathan Cainer (his #1 donator) and sees the same boy with his box just ahead. M says to Cainer 'I've gotta check this out' and they both walk over to the boy with the box. M says, 'Look in the box Jonathon, isn't that cute? Look at those little kittens. Hey kid tell my friend Jonathon what kind of kittens they are.' The boy replies, 'They're ex-premies.' 'Whoa!', Maharaji says, 'I came by here the other day and you said they were premies. What's up?' 'Well,' the kid says, 'Their eyes are open now.'

Subject: A forum for spiritual ex-premies? From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 01:18:29 (PDT) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: If you type the word ''spiritual'' into Google, you get 5,920,000 websites. (Try it if you don't believe me.) A whole bunch of them are forums or chatrooms or Yahoo clubs. There are hundreds of spiritual Yahoo clubs. There are Sufi clubs, Zen clubs, Gay Wicca clubs, Tantra clubs, Viapassana clubs, Landmark clubs. In short the net provides a smorgasbord of New Ageism and spiritualism. Some are also about being ex-cult members. One of these is called Recent Ex-premie Forum which I don't know much about. From the little I know, I gather it was meant to be a kinder, gentler forum for traumatised recent ex-premies - a detox or rehab joint. There are whispers that it was started as a password protected forum to exclude people like Jim - atheists, anti-spiritualists and other objectivists - labelled ''bullies'' by the more sensitive spiritual exes. I don't know much about RE but, if you are interested in it, you can email JHB and ask for info about applying to join. But this isn't about the plethora of spiritual websites available to those with that inclination - including the one which caters especially to ex-premies. This is about a question which has been raised several times this week. Is F7 anti-spiritual and therefore unfriendly to spiritual exes? This accusation was levelled by that anonymous site which appeared a few days ago saying that F7 was an anti-cult cult. But for days before that, certain exes who post on the premie forum, LG, have been saying this. In the year and a half that I've been involved here, I've had more emails than I can count telling me the same thing. I nearly even lost a good friend over this issue. So yes, it is a common complaint and I have to honestly admit that F7 is not spiritual-friendly. Deputy Dog has been so hounded by us nasty atheists here that he has had to resort to posting on the premie forum. I find that sad - that certain ex-premies do not feel welcome here and that I have been partly to blame. I don't mean those exes who are bored with the whole topic and no longer interested in talking about it anymore and prefer hunting ducks on AG. They've at least got a forum to cater to their tastes just as those who enjoy talking about politics and other OT stuff have Symp. I feel sorry for those who don't have a ''spiritual'' forum and perhaps don't like the idea of ''joining'' a password-protected club like RE. I'm offering to set up a forum for them. I obviously don't want to be FA. Someone else will have to volunteer for that but I'll do the start-up work involved to get it going. Hotboards can be password-protected if that's what you want and, unlike the klutzy Yahoo club ''email'' format, it would have the same familiar ''forum'' interface as this one. Perhaps Dep would like to be FA. Why am I offering this? Because I am not one to judge others too much. One man's meat etc. If there is a need for such a spiritual forum, I'll help because I can't promise not to be a ''nasty atheist'' on this forum. I'm offering because this forum is probably too polemical and most of the spiritual exes don't like that. They prefer to discuss things in an un-argumentative way. I'm offering to help set up a ''spiritual ex'' forum (and promising to stay off it) because I can't promise not to argue here. BUT I'll argue with anything HERE that I don't like. To me, this forum has to be as wide-open as possible in order to keep it honest. Keeping it wide-open intellectually means that all ideas are discussed. It means no sacred cows. As long as spiritual stuff is posted here, I'll try to shoot it down in flames. Why? Because to me the whole ''spiritual'' shebang is a herd of sacred cows. Since seeing through Rev Rawat and Maharajism, I am totally allergic to spiritual guess-work, theological speculation and subjective assumptions. I have long detested New Ajism and other religions. It was basically discovering that Maharajism is simply another New Age religion, that drove me out of the cult. When I read premies talking about M and K either here or on their forum, it's like fingernails scratching a chalkboard for me. And I feel the same way about all New Ajism. In fact I feel the same way about ALL religions. I cannot stand the business. To me the manufacturers of the ''opiate of the masses'' are not much better than the cocaine merchants of the Cali cartel. So, if you are a spiritual ex-premie, and don't like what I have to say to you about your religion here on F7, then email me and I'll set up a forum for you and even show you how to block Jim, Nigel, me and the other atheists.

Subject: Here is Jim's missing post From: Sir Dave To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:51:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's a simple job finding a lost post, provided you've read it. Just use the history section of your web browser in offline mode and you'll find it so long as it's on your cache. While I disagree with Jim's explanation for being blocked from The ANYTHING GOES forum, I will repost his missing Forum 7 post since it can be done. Here is Jim's missing post: Hi Pat, Well, I just noticed that Dave blocked me again on AG. Seems that Dave will allow Selene, Deb, Salam or himself to say anything, true or not, no matter how ugly, no matter how absurd but he just won't tolerate anyone objecting. Knowing that he's ostensibly asked that no one discuss Maharaji or any interpersonal conflicts there, but seeing that that's exactly what the above-mentioned are doing to their hearts' content, and seeing as he'd just unblocked me, I most gingerly dared to invite these various good folk to join me on Symp to discuss matters. That's all it took, I guess, and I'm blocked all over again. :) Anyway ........ sigh anyway..... It's true, isn't it, that if one of us F7 regulars shepherded and even hosted a specifically spiritual ex-premie forum those who try to somehow dismiss this forum as a 'cult' would lose an arrow in their quiver. On the other hand, however, they have no legitimate complaint to begin with so let's not fool ourselves that anything we do, no matter what, will satisfy them. Their criticism is born of either infantile, emotional reaction to the facts and arguments here or, worse, it's willful and cynical disinformation. I can't see how any rational measure on our part, whatever its nominal symbolic effect, could ever make a difference. If it did, it would only be because certain forum detractors know how silly they're being and would use an accomodation like that as an excuse to 'come in from the cold' so to speak. I mean, don't get me wrong. I don't have all that much against such a forum. I guess I could even agree to bite my tongue and not say anything or ask a single question there because, as you know, the moment that happens, the moment someone dares ask 'Really? How do you know?' the party's pretty well over. We've actually had those threads here on the forum lots. They can be interesting and vigorous, mature debates such as those with Mike Finch last year. In fact, anyone who claims otherwise would do well to find those arguments in the archives and really look them over. I'm not saying they were perfect or that I or others conducted ourselves at the highest possible level of respect and civillity throughout. I don't know about you but I, personally, have never been perfect and talking with Mike, for me anyways, wasn't any exception. Still, the threads are good! They're meaningful. They reflect real, honest discussion between sincere people with opposing viewpoints on some difficult but important issues. No one 'ganged up' on anyone. There were no shrill calls for blood, no rampant bullying or intimidation or whatever other silly claims F7 critics like to trot out. (The latest, I think, is Deborah's claim that we 'inner circle' exes -- ask her for the roster, don't ask me -- use secret coded-language to manipulate and program the poor, feckless souls who happen to read here.) No, those discussions were respectful and, frankly, I think it's a pity that anyone would think they had to find another clearing in the woods to have them as, quite honestly, the only benefit that would bring would be the tacit (or even explicit?) sign at the gate: 'NO HARD QUESTIONS ALLOWED' (or variations like 'QUESTIONS INVITED BUT ONLY TWO PER VISITOR AND NO FOLLOW-UPS!' or 'QUESTIONS WELCOME BUT DO NOT CHALLENGE THE INTEGRITY OF THE OPERATING SYSTEM ITSELF'). Alternatively, we have the threads regarding spiritual topics with Janet or Deputy Dog. Take a look at those too for, in the words of Monty Python, something completely different. In Janet's case, she has, at times, made some absolutely fantastic claims, such as specific, concrete visitations by one or another spiritual master. aliens perhaps. (Honestly, I'm not trying to mischaracterize her claims. That's just how I remember them.) I, for one, invariably challenged her perceptions. Why? Because, perhaps like JHB, I, too, don't want to miss out on heaven and eternity. If they're out there, point me in the right direction and I'll start waving too. :) However, all I can do is use my mind and follow my thoughts sincerely. I long ago realized that the one bit of advice I must always scrutinize with as much vigour as I can is that which urges me to not follow my mind because, as I learned in my experiences in a certain cult I joined, ionce I've taken that advice, I'm no longer even 'on my own'. Where am I? Hell if I know. So, yeah, invariably I would try to test Janet's extraordinary claims as strongly as I know how. She, however, didn't like to play. Now here's an obviously smart woman, verbal and articulate, who loves to talk about things generally. She comes here making such extreme, important claims and ...what? She doesn't expect to be challenged? Janet grew silent each and every time I asked. Thus we were unable to explore further any possible alternative source for her 'visions', the possible association they just might have with her schizophrenia, choice of reading material, friends, environment, anything. Yes, there are those threads too. Then there are the threads with people like Dog who, as you can see, has a very significant mental disconnect with respect to his basic 'assumptions' as Livia called them. You can see from his post that Dog is still inclined to preach his best advice and worldview as strongly as feels in any one moment. Yet he adamantly refuses to even look at where he came from intellectually or the efficacy of any of his current ideas. Ask Dog and he'll tell you he has no ideas. I can't help but wonder, therefore, why he'd want a spiritual ex-forum at all, seeing as there's really nothing to discuss. :) And yes, I admit it, those discussions with Dog are far from pleasant. Yes, I've told him I have no respect for him, his attitude and yes, I've told him to get lost. Hey, what can I tell you? I'm human. Sue me. Better yet, get Deborah to sue me. :) I jut can't tolerate that kind of wilfull blindness, especially from someone, like Dog, who argued with us for literally years here before even accepting that Maharaji just might not be a valid guru after all. (A null set for me in any event). Life isn't the safe little candy box w ewant it to be. We found shelter at the feet of the Lord of the Universe, Shri Satguru Dev Maharj Ji and 'knew' that we were saved from loneliness, death and despair by the precursor to the primordial and self-effulgent Prem Rawat Foundation. But, it turns out, we were wrong. Now we're stuck facing reality all over again and, sorry, but there are no guarantees that reality's going to satisfy all our desires, assuage our fears and concerns, like spirituality always promises. And yes it does promise that. In one form or another, even the buddhists have a program to 'make it all okay'. That's the whole point. This isn't some children's story book. We're not at the back of the north wind. We're not in Narnia. We're alive -- in this world -- and I, for one, want to know what that really means. And yes, if my mind can't get it, I'm not going. I've already seen that show. Enough of that.

Subject: Thanks much ... but ........?? From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 17:03:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: While I disagree with Jim's explanation for being blocked from The ANYTHING GOES forum, I will repost his missing Forum 7 post since it can be done. What part do you disagree with? Is it not the case that you are letting Deborah, Salam, Selene and yourself of course discuss me, Pat, the forum and the exes in general, regardless of your current stated prohibitions? Is it not the case that I posted three posts since you unblocked me, one to you disagreeing with your claim to Zelda that none but her and Salam care about his (false) accusation against Pat re Zelda? Is it not the case that I also posted once to Selene and once to Deb, both times acknowledging that you apparently didn't want any fights on AG and thus inviting them to debate their various lies, as I call them, on Symp? Hm?

Subject: This explains it From: Sir Dave To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 17:26:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No Jim. The ANYTHING GOES forum is now for discussing anything else but you, Forum 7, Maharaji, factions or anything of that nature. It is for discussing things that are irrelevant to premies and ex-premies, such as the weather, horse racing, betting, alternatives to meditation, cooking, knitting, cars, hamsters and any other number of nice unrelated-to-maha subjects. It can also be used for humour or even Gerry's fantastic conspiracy theories. I'm moving it away from any of the feuds and ex v ex battles or premie/ex-premie divides. Such things are now strictly off-topic. This is how I've always wanted it to be. The forum needs a rest from you Jim and you need a rest from the people and related arguments. Well, you can continue those arguments but please, not on The ANYTHING GOES forum. And that goes for anyone.

Subject: I don't believe you From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 18:03:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't believe you at all. That is, I don't believe that you are a fair arbitrer of this or any related issue. In the brief period I was able to see AG again I noticed that all sorts of people were talking about the forum, exes in general, Maharaji for sure and me as well. But I join in in small part relative to all that noise and you blocked me again. Like I said, I don't trust you. As far as I'm concerned, there's a whole conversation on AG right now all about this and you're right in there laughing your head off.

Subject: Re: I don't believe you From: Sir Dave To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:47:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why don't you ask Pat? He'll vouch for me.

Subject: Re: I don't believe you From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 07:50:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why don't you answer my questions?

Subject: Re: I don't believe you From: Sir Dave To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:05:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have answered your questions. You just don't like the answers.

Subject: Re: I don't believe you From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:08:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hardly. You didn't answer them at all.

Subject: Re: This explains it From: gerry To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 17:48:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: DAve, I could read only about one quarter of the cached stuff and couldn't find Livia's original post. Could you possibly have a look? It was in this thread. Not sure of the title, 'Exes suck and they are unreasonable louts' or something like that. :)

Subject: No can do From: Sir Dave To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:45:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't open Livia's post so it's not on my cache.

Subject: Oh, and just to be clear From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 17:05:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is it also not true that in each case where I did say something to Selene or Deb or you I was merely responding to current threads and things they'd said, rather than start something myself?

Subject: Go for it Patsy From: Moley To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:01:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: haven't read the rest of the thread... but it seems like a good idea to me... a kinda half-way-house between FV11 and Recent Exes. A place where disenchanted wavering premies can explore their 'inner states'. Block the atheist bastards - that's wot I reckon :). No, but seriously, give the people what they want. Only way to go, realistically :)

Subject: After a long-term run with the devil From: Gail To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 13:05:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: how could an ex-premie have one spiritual cell left? Think about it. Even if there is a GOD, do you really think that it cares about teeny tiny human beings? Please. As one of the billions of life forms on this planet we are lucky to eat every day. However, if there is such a thing as reincarnation, I'd like to come back as a man. I want to look like Freddie Prinze Jr., have the wealth of Bill Gates, the intellectual abilities of Einstein, the power of the US Bushwacker, the heart of St. Christopher and the ruthlessness of Atilla to wipe out my enemies.

Subject: ...Warren Beaty's fingertips... [nt] From: Woody Allen To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 07:31:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: I'd like to come back.... From: Fairy Godmother To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:38:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: dddddrrrrriiiiiiinnnnnnnnngggggggggggg (( harp gliss )) and so you shall....! AV ...dressed as fairy godmother and feeling a tad self-concious

Subject: Gail my list would be different From: hamzen To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:25:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Definitely as a woman, probably a lesbian when need be, and definitwely to be born in britain again, in around 25-30 years time. I'd also add that I also woundn't mind not having more than a couple years break in between innings. Understand your choices I think, they have some logical consistancy, but don't you, errr, think that they are all a bit visible, out there, you know in your face, where's the chillin zone when the media is on you 24/7, you got more courage than me girl I can tell ya !!!! ...................;) Re the god thing, with you all the way, different flavours maybe, I suspect you went off on more of a god one than me, so yeah flavours different, but yeah otherwise bigtime. I still do believe periods of flow can be generated by a positive attitude, at an intensity not reachable otherwise, and I mean absolutely no spiritual there. If there are any oddball and unexplainable effects amonghst that then I reckon it's us connecting through the quantum level in some way, the word singularity is coming to mind, not sure what it means though, probably a complete irrelevance, any dictionaries out there? God as a concept I am neutral about, see it as a complete irrelevance, for me, whatever, who can be a 100% sure, so until I get incontrivertible proof, and I don't just mean 'god's talking to me' through whatever means. When you know a persinger magnetic helmet can bring you directly face-to-face with god, on a totally reliable basis, and you're right there while that magnet is over a specific spot in your brain, for me that justs posits so many question marks....

Subject: Multidimensional post there, hammy From: gerry To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:53:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think Gail was exaggerating a bit, though. When you know a persinger magnetic helmet can bring you directly face-to-face with god, on a totally reliable basis, and you're right there while that magnet is over a specific spot in your brain, for me that justs posits so many question marks.... Is god a state of mind? It's beg'ning to appear that way. Weird, huh? Hey did you ever get to gander at that spoof pic I did on his Majesty's love knob?

Subject: Nope, comes up as a missed link From: hamzen To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:01:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh and good multidimensional I hope ;) :) I reckon it's a mac thing, cause Barry's links here used to do the same thing and I don't have probs on any other forum I visit, and all the pc'ers seemed to see them. And hey gerr, while on a techie trip, could you fix my reply to jed? I edited it, and when you open it up the changes show, but in the thread list it stays the same, just me?

Subject: The editor won't work that way From: gerry To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:07:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I ran into this problem recently myself, Ham. There's nothing we can do about it. It's a hotboards thing. Sorry.

Subject: Ces't la vie From: hamzen To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:17:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do follow my link in my reply to ebb down below, think you'll enjoy! Oh and just in case you missed my edit, good multi-dimensional I hope ;) :)

Subject: wow....that was just great From: Jethro To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 13:10:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: can I quote you on that? Jethro

Subject: Fee-Fi-Forum From: Gregg To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 12:26:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There are definitely good reasons for starting such a forum, PatC, and I would probably post there. I might be a little less inhibited in discussing matters spiritual. But I haven't been the victim of much flaming here. I've even admitted to having a current spiritual teacher without having you or Jim or anyone tell me I'm an idiot. (Well, I've been put down a couple of times in the last two or three years, but I haven't taken it personally.) I think the discussion between the spirit-struck and the materialists has been pretty healthy for the most part, and a clear demonstration of the various paths one can take after breaking free of the insidious Rawat Doctrine. Interesting issues brought up on this thread. I'm undecided about whether, all things considered, it would be a good idea, but, hey, that's a Libra for you. Not that I believe in astrology or anything.

Subject: Excuse me Pat but why can't From: Jethro To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:16:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a 'spiritual ex'go to one of the 5,919,999 websites you mentioned above. (I have excluded recent exs since it is an exclusive club just like premies. ) There are some incredible clubs out there, where people without anything to sell will discuss everything about meditation. I even met nectar-tasters out there...and guess what they never heard of m or secret initiations. Anyway, just thought I 'd tell you that, IMNSHO, I think you'de be wasting good time setting up such a forum. Let them, whoever they are, do it themselves if that's what they want. Chow for now, maybe see u soon in SA Jethro

Subject: whoops sorry jed, shoulda been for pat (nt) From: hamzen To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:37:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ah, whah

Subject: Jethro, you got it in one From: PatC To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:35:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why can't a 'spiritual ex'go to one of the 5,919,999 websites you mentioned above. (I have excluded recent exs since it is an exclusive club just like premies. ) There are some incredible clubs out there, where people without anything to sell will discuss everything about meditation. I even met nectar-tasters out there...and guess what they never heard of m or secret initiations. Anyway, just thought I 'd tell you that, IMNSHO, I think you'de be wasting good time setting up such a forum. Let them, whoever they are, do it themselves if that's what they want. Chow for now, maybe see u soon in SA Jethro --- That was precisely one of the subtler points I was making. But you'll miss me of you go to SA. I'm in SF, USA. :C)

Subject: You do realize he's on the pull (ot) From: hamzen To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:44:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thinks he offering you a holiday in South Africa Pat, he's a very rich man you know!!!!!! And who knows, maybe more if it went that way, he's quite experimental you know!! And you get to get your roots cleaned, could be interesting. :)

Subject: Definitely BEST OF From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:54:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And that's not nepotism unless a ''marriage of true minds'' counts. But, as Nigel pointed out below, unfortunately as soon as two or more exes are gathered together in rational agreement, they are branded a cult by - well, you know who. Not only Janet's alien ascended masters and Dep's ''nothing is something and something is nothing'' (or whatever his latest koan is) but most of spiritualism cannot stand up to the question: ''Really? How do you know?'' As you said: 'NO HARD QUESTIONS ALLOWED' (or variations like 'QUESTIONS INVITED BUT ONLY TWO PER VISITOR AND NO FOLLOW-UPS!' or 'QUESTIONS WELCOME BUT DO NOT CHALLENGE THE INTEGRITY OF THE OPERATING SYSTEM ITSELF'). Yep, it begins to look a lot like Rev Rawat's Question and Answer sessions - you know the ones where no questions are allowed. But I am sincere in my offer. Only Janet has accepted so far. Dep feels happy to post on LG and AG. But, as I pointed out, I can't finance it. Who will? And no one has offered to FA it yet either. As for as being blocked/unblocked/blocked from AG. Methinks you were perhaps using a different computer which got you past the block and now Sir Dave has blocked that computer too. He never intended to unblock you. Who cares? (Unless you want to read a whole thread about Sir Dave and Salam putting their ''cocks in a woman's ass.'') AG really is not ony inconsequential but also ''meaningless and trivial'' in the words of some gate-crasher over there. :P:C)

Subject: BEST OF NOTHING -- IT DISAPPEARED!! From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:49:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, what happened? My post is gone!

Subject: Re: BEST OF NOTHING -- IT DISAPPEARED!! From: Zelda To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:54:40 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: I noticed your post is gone and also my reply to you. I cut and pasted the announcement of your blocking on AG and pontificated about a spiritual forum.... Thought pat may have blocked me.... but couldnt figure out where your post went. Maybe somebody doesnt like me talking to you.. Zelda

Subject: Here's what happened From: Jim To: Zelda Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:30:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Zelda, I just talked with Gerry who did in fact delete your post and mine. He was too busy right now to post an explanation himself but he authorized me to explain what he said and why. I'm sure he'll add further when he gets a chance. Yes, Gerry deleted your post. He got mine by accident in the process. He apologized to me but, sorry Zelda, not you. Here's why. First, some background. Gerry's the subject of some ugly harrassment, in all likelihood from one of the cult members, perhaps someone like Roupell, Cat or who knows who. Someone's been using their computer to call his phone every fifteen minutes for the last two days! Can you imagine? Every fifteen minutes you have to answer the phone just to hang it up again. Hour in, hour out. Great, eh? Why do I accuse one of the cult members and, in particular, one of the LG crew? Because Gerry's number is unlisted and the only people who have it beside a few exes, family and some of their close friends and colleagues, are CD and Carlos. Carlos, I believe, would only have it if he has Call Display as Gerry called him once, he says. But CD has it. Who he might have given it to is a good question. I'd ask him myself but 1) I don't believe anything he tells me; and 2) he probably wouldn't answer. Anyway, it was against that backdrop that Gerry read your post. He tells me that it was completely insulting to the exes but rather than repeat the third-hand summary, I can tell you this. Gerry acknowledges that, were it not for the harrassment he's currently dealing with, he might have not been so quick to pull your post. In fact, he said to tell you that you could post it again -- or post whatever it was you said -- insult the hell out of us :), and we can just argue about it. As for my post ........ SHEEEEEEEIIIITT! Oh well. :)

Subject: Re: Here's what happened From: Zelda To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 17:04:05 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: oh Wow . Too bad Jerry has to put up with that . Cant he do some computer stuff to find out who is doing it? Anyway I understand I think... I dont know what was so insulting to the exs. It was critical but not insulting.I just said they on the whole are not objective enough to allow discussions about spritual subjects to happen- without chiming in. And that in the past the guys on patrol considered it their job to annialate any discussions about newage/ sprit ect....And that has been a weakness on the forum And that I thought that Ex premie has become to be associated with EXSpirtual Ex premeis. And that Exs in General - (and I mean all exs not just F7 loyalist) dont know how to stay out of such conversations when they dont agree with the content. AND that I thought it may work to have 2 new forums 1- for discussion amoungst people who agree about the existance/need for spiritual / self developement and want to have conversations. and 2 - another forum for DEBATE about the topics. Ie- whether god ixist and whether aromatherapy really works and if astrology is a science or bunk That way the people that want to discuss and SHARE about their expereinces can do so in peace and those that want to Dissassemble can do so unfettered. Oh ya- and I said I dont think it is a good thing to discuss spiritual experience wholesale and I would rather talk about astrrology and or wierd healing practices. I said something else real important but I cant remember what it was...... Oh right I said the AG posters want to play and were not interested in resolving anything.now . And that the only way I could see to resolve all the garbage was to have a facilitator and allow evidence to be brought forward so that people could admit failings, mistakes ect. But for that to work both parties would need to interested in resolution and it doesnt appear that XYZ from AG are interested at all cause they would rather play and are getting milage out ot the 'opposing forums/anti-ex ' thing- which they now say is 'beneath them.' Which I find interesting because it would have been so easy for Salam to prove his accusations. The fact that he didnt bother proving them tells me that he is more interested in raising dust than actual facts. He enjoys getting people worked up and calling people names. He is useless at resolution becaue he wants to be useless at it. And he thinks that is funny. Feel free to delete this if it is too messy for now.... Zelda

Subject: zelda you nailed it From: janet To: Zelda Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 04:37:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you have clarified precisely what i would have said if i had put up a second post. 2 fora: one for sharing and relating and being able to speak with others in peace, unharassed. another for debate, discussion, challenge and examination. JIm thinks my silences to his challenges mean he stopped me. what he does not get is that he did not 'stop me', rather, i gauged by the aim and tone of his questions that he did not want a serious answer. he wanted to point the discussion at his ego, rather than at the subject. i regarded it comparable to a man scorning the agonies of undergoing childbirth and belittling, mocking and dismissing all women's accounts of living thru same, as if he might ever himself be able to know what it is. no amount of telling him could ever give him the experience. or belief in it. there is no point or use in attempting to replying to,engaging in conversation with a person whose precast conviction not only is ignorant, but categorically identifies his ego with believing it can't be true. if JIm could separate his ego from the questions he asks, and if he genuinely wanted to know if or how such accounts might be so, then i would engage him on it. but he doesnt actually want to know. what he wants is attention on his ego. what you have here, is essentially a message, the messenger who brings it, and the recipient. it is one thing to scorn the message. it is another to scorn the messenger. the one can be worthy even if the other is not. you can scorn both, or neither. but to disregard them out of nothing other than wanting people to view your ego as superior, is dangerous and foolhardy. the message may come again thru a different messenger. or most stunning of all, the event the message, and the messenger were coming to tell you about, may happen to you directly. then you will have no one and nothing left to scorn--and probably nothing left of your ego to hang onto, as consolation prize, either. your scorn is of no consequence to the message nor the messenger who brings it. for them, it is already known. the events, the news in its content, has already happened and is already fact. the only difference is whether it is known to you or not. and if you don't know it now, you will know it in some future moment. jim, could you convince and prove to a blind person what sight is? that it existed? could you show them great artwork, have intricate discussions of one artist's work versus another's?

Subject: Extra Senses From: JHB To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 10:52:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janet, You asked, could you convince and prove to a blind person what sight is? that it existed? could you show them great artwork, have intricate discussions of one artist's work versus another's? Are you saying that you have equivalent of an extra sense that others do not have? If so, I see your problem in communicating this. But surely, from what you say, your difficulties in communicating with people like Jim have nothing to do with their egos, but due to this extra faculty you have. It's difficult to imagine a way you could communicate it. It's a bit like the people who interpret the powerful meditation experiences as an experience of their true self or God. I believe I have had comparable meditation experiences but I no longer interpret them that way. But I could be wrong, and these other people are having completely different experiences, so I have asked them if they have any evidence apart from their own feelings, that these experiences are of God, etc. So far, no one has, so I remain unconvinced. You have had a different unusual experiences which from the outside are open to different interpretations. How can you convince us that your interpretation is correct? John.

Subject: Re: Extra Senses -not necessarily.... From: janet To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 02:16:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this is why zelda is right about needing two different arenas in which to converse. I am not interested in going on a crusade to convince anyone else--here, or elsewhere-- about what I saw, heard, felt, perceived, experienced, understood, found out. I had no such beliefs before it happened, and what beliefs I formed afterwards were kind of confused until I went and did a lot of reading, a lot of asking, and a lot more experiencing, reflecting, contemplating and comparing with others. I never had any understanding of 'faith'. the word was a bafflement to me. I had nothing I could think of that seemed to match it. People would criticize me and tell me I needed to have more faith, and i would frown and argue that i couldnt. i had to have proof. i had to see it. you had to show me. I wasn't expecting the experiences that came to me. I didnt have some hope of them, or some preexisting concept of them. in fact, I took a highly suspicious, distrustful, prickly attitude towards the whole phenomenon when the experiences started, and kept that challenging, disbelieving stance a long, long way into it. I went to professionals and asked them to tell me I was having delusions, was having an illness, wanting them to relieve me of the burden of this new information I was receiving, daily. Not a one would agree to do it, much to my dismay. I WANTED it to be not real. I WANTED to have an excuse to push it away and go back to being 'normal'. LIfe wouldn't cooperate with my wants. The experiences kept coming. Not only to me, but people showed up who were having the same experiences; or, once hanging around with me, started having them as well, with or without me. I have never heard of more than one person sharing a hallucination. The literature does not show any cases of such a thing experienced by several people, who can converse with one another perfectly normally, and at the same time, confirm by description, repeating what dialog they hear, relating what they see, feel, smell, taste--taking place in another realm entirely, not tangibly present in the room where they physically are! I mean it, when i say I was rigorously suspicious, and put everything to a test. And much to my frustration, it passed the tests. Let me add this, for contrast: my son has been diagnosed with schizophrenia. He hears voices all the time. so some sharp divergences, shown by my testing, here: I can not hear the voices he says he listens to. neither can any of my friends, nor his friends. yet these experiences I had, which i wanted someone to prove to me were symptoms of illness, so I could be cured of them and go on free of them-- the people who came into my life from that time, EVERY ONE OF THEM WHO WAS CURIOUS, WITHIN WEEKS, COULD HEAR THE SAME BEINGS i WAS HEARING. COULD REPEAT WHAT THEY HEARD THEM SAY, IDENTICAL TO WHAT I COULD HEAR THEM SAY. COULD CONFIRM BY DESCRIPTION WHAT THEY LOOKED LIKE, WHAT THEY DID, WHAT SETTING THEY SAW THEM IN, COULD TELL OF THEIR OWN PERCEPTION, APART FROM MINE. this is not schizophrenia. this does not match any known case history. schizophrenics get compelling commands from their voices. they get maddening accusations, tormenting directives to do things, say things. I got no such thing from the beings who addressed us. not me. us. 'us' includes a young man in college, an old man retired from the CIA, a gay friend who was skeptical, an ex boyfriend who didnt believe me at all until he called me one night in shame and told me he had just had a visitation from one of my 'entities' and wished to apologize to me for having spoken to me in such cruel terms about it previously, included a woman who had known one of the persons while they were alive, and went from casually greeting me and inviting me in, to instant tears when i went to meet her, and she recognized her old friend's presence, accompanying me into the room, unspoken. I went to see her, to find out if this 'visitor was who they purported to be. She knew him personally when he was alive, I did not. So that was another test I wanted to put this to. And it passed. I am not interested in convincing you, or Jim, or anyone else, about these experiences. They happened to me, and to my associates. I was well aware i sounded like i was out of my right mind when all this was happening to me, daily, and I prefaced everything I said with that, to let others know how aware I was. But neither could i deny it was happening, and not just to me. or for me. I did everything I could think of to prove to myself and others that it wasn't true, and it just kept on coming. To me, and to the others. My son's schizophrenia does not work like this. he is incomprehensible to other people. he cannot make himself understood while at the same time, he thinks everyone else understands him as clear as a bell. There is no one who can second or confirm what he hears or feels, in his hallucinations. if you would like, I can bring you a sample of his typical state of mind and his writing/speech, for illustration. you will see the shocking constrast, between what Jim, here, thinks is me, talking crazy, and someone who really is. I think you may have a whole new respect for me, after you read my son's writings. He is schizophrenic. I was not. He is ill. I was not. He is alone inside his world. I was not. He can't turn his off, or tune it out, at will. Mine, I can. so i am not interested in 'proving' my experience to anyone. I am open to telling about it. I am open to comparing notes with others who have had something similar happen. I will speak honestly and as truthfully as I can from how it happened to me. But i am not interested in being used by someone else, for the purpose of aggrandizing themselves on false premises. If these things could happen to me, could come to me, they could happen to anyone. They have happened to others before me, and since. I am honest about what I have seen, and what i have not. When others speak of things they have seen that I have not, I listen. I ask questions. or I remain silent and just let them speak as they will. I don't jump in and make an ignorant sport of trying to rip them down for the simple fact that they have seen something that I haven't. I only speak to what I know. I have the good sense to know what i know, and know what i don't know, and to stay within my own truth. I have the good sense to know what I am ignorant about. And I do not 'believe in' something, just because someone else says they know it. I still remain within what I know, for myself and no more. Not until I know more, and know enough to speak from my own experience. I told you: I don't know what Faith is. I don't know how to take something 'on faith'. the phrase has no meaning to me. I have to see it for myself before I know what it is. If i haven't seen it for myself, I don't know what it is, and I KNOW don't know what it is. You really ought to read what being in my son's head is like. Jim, you would never mock me again.

Subject: Janet, a sincere request From: JHB To: janet Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 16:11:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janet, Speak to your visitors, and ask them to find me here in Latvia, and make themselves known to me, if they have that ability. Give them a message to relay to me. If I receive that message, I'll ask you on this forum what the message was. If it matches, I'll believe you. I know you're not interested in getting others to believe you, but I am. John.

Subject: There are many shades of delusion From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:04:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First, Janet, you start by saying you're not interested in trying to convince anyone of anything but then the rest of your post is an urgent attempt to do just that. Yes, Janet, your son sounds like he's pretty out there. No question about that. And you generally don't sound that way at all. But that's not to say that you weren't labouring under some delusion of sorts when you had the experiences you describe. As for your 'witnesses'? Beats me. Bring them forward, one by one, and let's see what they have to say. There have been many, many cases of people supporting other peoples' delusions -- or even sharing them -- for one reason or another. If I was content with your level of offered proof, I might as well be a mormon. After all, didn't Joseph Smith have a handful of 'witnesses' too?

Subject: here-read this -true schizophrenia From: janet To: janet Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 02:29:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this is a look inside my son's head. this is what trying to listen to a true schizophrenic is. this is not remotely like what my experience was. 'hey poppa, yes i got the pak today, i also, on my way to the gym, got a pak from Ford, inside i discovered a leaping long haired gnome covered in goop the color of which i couldn't pronounce soon i melted away into a breezy forrest grove was covered in tastfully sofeted indirect sunshine complete with long 75 cent words that i didn't have time or ablilaty for , prononciation wasn't even in the cards so i mouthed the secret prayer of the Tibetan book of the dead much of it rhymed with orange, when suddenly a pshco-delic kalidoscopic array, a whole slew, a vast plethora of 99 rainbow balloons consumed us (u were there, Quincie too,) and then... out of the blew , blue a Cajun wind varrying at precisely approximatly 42 cps(cajuns per squadron) these Creol chefs began to dizzy us w/ know how throwing CauTION to the wind u guessed it red hot chili peppers abounding, stone cold soup surrounding gourmet cuisine of the utmost terrificalness music by the COPAHUERA TWINS encompassing kisses from Quincie to me to u to Sarah to Stevei(a) Wonder to Ichabod Crane and back again words oh words we SAIL upon Ruthie sang then Gramadge(a word meaning a BADGE of HONOR for Gramparents) strolled in , pleasantly engaged in each other's eyes when they cought the aroma of the southern fried roast baked stewed simmered toasted soufleted AND! fricaseed(fric-uh-see-ed) what were we talkin' 'bout again oh yaeh, the Cajun Casserole w/ the Latin yAEh!!! finding our selves satiated (the word du jour) and not being able to talk atoll Atoll (swahili for greetings to all Tripping Gnomes of the woode variety whose eyes tell of yonder feilds of glory)   ... we reached for our favourite pak o' smokes pulled out a fine smelling Pual Dergabeard whose aroma was so enticing we eagerly suffused our wholesmeness w/ energetic gravy thrice   descended from Nanook of the Inuit persuasion - of the far North!!...upon inhalation of the sacred herb 'eeeeeeeee' screamed a Forrest Banshee running Pall Mall thru our midst as we chuckled unified annoyance agreeing as Holy Joshua had proclaimed eons ago on the Dionysion plains of Mother AFROca; echoing Genius Gina, 'Phishy Fishy Phish!' the universal creed of all those who, if they do say so themselves, believe that communal PRAYER will allieviate the slovenly confused ones of their propagandanistic ego , ergo our banshee amigo was transformed into a Cosmic Dragon of the Celtic order beyond the material world ...but not too much because, Dear Father, i awoke to find myself in the company of a prince in a cat's body, discovered that the packet of materialistic ford materials told of Part Two: of Wesly and , get this now, his non-fossil fueled Ford Focus equpped w/ a hydogen ion membrane engine designed to carry 14 passengers (i wish) the highlight of the dream was one fellow who told of total enlightenment thru New England real estate right Ren? affirmative'

Subject: That, my dear Janet, is pure bullshit From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 07:52:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just what I expected though.

Subject: Re: Here's what happened From: Jim To: Zelda Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 18:00:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow . Too bad Jerry has to put up with that . Cant he do some computer stuff to find out who is doing it? Zelda, Yes it IS too bad and what, if anything Gerry's doing about it (Jerry's someone else altogether), is something I'll leave to him to discuss if and how he wants. It's disgusting, in fact. But then this is a cult we're talking about. They probably read up on what cults are supposed to do to harrass their critics. Maybe something in Cult Leaders Magazine. Anyway I understand I think... I dont know what was so insulting to the exs. It was critical but not insulting.I just said they on the whole are not objective enough to allow discussions about spritual subjects to happen- without chiming in. What is that supposed to mean? How does 'objectivity' translate into non-involvement? And this is an open discussion board for anyone. What's wrong with 'chiming in' anyways? And that in the past the guys on patrol considered it their job to annialate any discussions about newage/ sprit ect....And that has been a weakness on the forum And that I thought that Ex premie has become to be associated with EXSpirtual Ex premeis. Again, I'd ask you to explain yourself. What do you mean by 'annihiliate'? I don't recall seeing anyone tell anyone else here not to discuss spirituality. What I have seen are lots of questions and criticisms levied at spiritual beliefs. I've also seen people warned not to trot any belief out here that they don't want to risk seeing well-examined. But 'annihilate'? And that Exs in General - (and I mean all exs not just F7 loyalist) dont know how to stay out of such conversations when they dont agree with the content. What the hell??????? Zelda, speak to me! What is this? Why should anyone stay out of any conversations here? AND that I thought it may work to have 2 new forums 1- for discussion amoungst people who agree about the existance/need for spiritual / self developement and want to have conversations. and 2 - another forum for DEBATE about the topics. Ie- whether god ixist and whether aromatherapy really works and if astrology is a science or bunk That way the people that want to discuss and SHARE about their expereinces can do so in peace and those that want to Dissassemble can do so unfettered. I don't know what you mean by 'dissassemble' but what you're asking for is just what Pat's talking about and what RE is apparently (if you can get in and if you can stomach the extreme secrecy). Oh ya- and I said I dont think it is a good thing to discuss spiritual experience wholesale and I would rather talk about astrrology and or wierd healing practices. Well, they're all legitimate topics. Spirituality's a valid topic just as much as astrology, etc. Why wouldn't it be? I said something else real important but I cant remember what it was...... Oh right I said the AG posters want to play and were not interested in resolving anything.now . And that the only way I could see to resolve all the garbage was to have a facilitator and allow evidence to be brought forward so that people could admit failings, mistakes ect. But for that to work both parties would need to interested in resolution and it doesnt appear that XYZ from AG are interested at all cause they would rather play and are getting milage out ot the 'opposing forums/anti-ex ' thing- which they now say is 'beneath them.' Which I find interesting because it would have been so easy for Salam to prove his accusations. The fact that he didnt bother proving them tells me that he is more interested in raising dust than actual facts. He enjoys getting people worked up and calling people names. He is useless at resolution becaue he wants to be useless at it. And he thinks that is funny. Yes, and again, I want to thank you for being a voice of fair, reason in an environment that seems to offer one thing particularly to its visitors and that's the lack of any pressure to be accountable for anything. You were great in that initial challenge to Salam. Good for you standing up to such an ornery piece of work when he's surrounded by his harpies. And yes, I've felt just the same way about some other specific lies these guys are bandying about. Deb claims she never threatened Pat and that I'm lying when I say she did. That's a bald-faced lie. She threatened him so intensely and, like I say, I've got two witnesses, one of whom heard the whole thing, they were that close to the phone. The other just hear my end of the heated discussion where I had to literally scream at her to retract it or else I would be compelled to do something about it. Yet she goes on and on about how 'insanely deluded' I am. Yeah, right! The other is her recent claim that she has 'posts and emails' that prove that the 'inner circle' of exes (whoever that may be) don't want any media attention at all for fear of accusations of libel. That, too, is a lie. Deb is too cowardly to talk with me directly. Maybe she's afraid of that secret brain re-programming we do or something but I did get a chance to ask her to join me on Symp before Dave blocked me again. But no tribunal is going to happen because, for one thing, these guys aren't sincere. They don't really believe what they're saying. That 'playing around' you're talking about encompasses their attacks on the forum too, if you can believe it. Feel free to delete this if it is too messy for now.... Zelda Zelda, honey, you know I wouuld if I could but I'm not an FA here so you'll just have to ask Pat or Gerry. :)

Subject: Re: Here's what happened From: Zelda To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 20:24:02 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Wow . Too bad Jerry has to put up with that . Cant he do some computer stuff to find out who is doing it? Zelda, ***** It sounds like you think it may be premies. I dont think so. The recent Pink thing was the work of ex exs- (i will bet a trillion dollars) so it follows that the trouble Gerry is having could be their doing as well. Anyway I understand I think... I dont know what was so insulting to the exs. It was critical but not insulting.I just said they on the whole are not objective enough to allow discussions about spritual subjects to happen- without chiming in. What is that supposed to mean? How does 'objectivity' translate into non-involvement? And this is an open discussion board for anyone. What's wrong with 'chiming in' anyways? ****What I mean is that outspoken exs here can be Biased against the whole idea of spiritual . Therefore they are compelled to jump in - (interrupt) if a conversation is taking place. By Objective I mean the knack of watching a conversation that is goes against a held belief -and being able to refrain from voicing an opinion so the conversation can take place --- as a common courtesy. That is slightly different than 'Objectivity' . *******Nothing is wrong with chiming in - if you have been invited to particitpate in a discussion. I am sure you can relate to a hypothetical situation. IE- You are having a conversation that seems to be going somewhere that You and the other person like and whammo- from the left comes a post from some ninkumpoop who wants their opinion aired. For example- I was reading your discussions with Isabella and they were good- you were on a wavelength and actually engaged in dialogue and it faltered when the interjections became too rude to ignore. *****So If an ex exploits the fact that this is an open discussion for anyone- then that in practice means that ex can Stop conversation by continual intervention. It amounts to non-tolerance. Face it Jim- there is a attitude of non tolerance here re spirtual stuff. How that feels. And that in the past the guys on patrol considered it their job to annialate any discussions about newage/ sprit ect....And that has been a weakness on the forum And that I thought that Ex premie has become to be associated with EXSpirtual Ex premeis. Again, I'd ask you to explain yourself. What do you mean by 'annihiliate'? I don't recall seeing anyone tell anyone else here not to discuss spirituality. What I have seen are lots of questions and criticisms levied at spiritual beliefs. I've also seen people warned not to trot any belief out here that they don't want to risk seeing well-examined. But 'annihilate'? ********So who puts out the warning??? Where is it.?? And if it is there for all to read- what place does it have on an Expremie forum?? ****What do you mean by your ''What I have seen are lots of questions and criticisms levied at spiritual beliefs. I've also seen people warned not to trot any belief out here that they don't want to risk seeing well-examined.'' Dont you think that is a bit clique-ish?? ******And by Annialate I mean stop discussion by interupting or tripping up a conversation about beliefs by artfully place converstion stoppers in the form of challenges. Dont you see that what you are saying implies that there is a status quo - or set of rules that must be abided by. No - it may not be a command not to talk of spirtuality- but Beware anybody who wants to try. This exclusive attitude- makes it seem that there is a accepted form of behaviour or dogma that is an unwritten part of being an expremie. ITs how it FEELS and it is a legitimate complaint. And that Exs in General - (and I mean all exs not just F7 loyalist) dont know how to stay out of such conversations when they dont agree with the content. What the hell??????? Zelda, speak to me! What is this? Why should anyone stay out of any conversations here? *******Ho . JIM. That is just it. I think that people should stay out of conversations here and allow OTHERS to talk . ******It really boils down to this: What is the Purpose of the Forum? Is it to escort/relate to exiting /fenceline /new premies so they can free themselves from the grasp of the cult? If that is so then it takes all kinds of escorts because premies exit the cult by many different doorways. If all kinds of escorts are not encouraged then it would appear there is an Accepted way of exiting . Any other gets flack. *******Or is the purpose to make sure that they and exs dont get the opportunity to discuss spiritual needs with like minded people? Cant you see that is exclusive in practice? AND that I thought it may work to have 2 new forums 1- for discussion amoungst people who agree about the existance/need for spiritual / self developement and want to have conversations. and 2 - another forum for DEBATE about the topics. Ie- whether god ixist and whether aromatherapy really works and if astrology is a science or bunk That way the people that want to discuss and SHARE about their expereinces can do so in peace and those that want to Dissassemble can do so unfettered. I don't know what you mean by 'dissassemble' but what you're asking for is just what Pat's talking about and what RE is apparently (if you can get in and if you can stomach the extreme secrecy). *** RIght . That is why I posted my post. To point out the shortcomings of F7 ( the lack of tolerance) and BTW to ask 'What is the purpose of the Forum' ***** by dissasemble I mean weaken the flow of a conversation until it falls apart- by interruptioning Oh ya- and I said I dont think it is a good thing to discuss spiritual experience wholesale and I would rather talk about astrrology and or wierd healing practices. Well, they're all legitimate topics. Spirituality's a valid topic just as much as astrology, etc. Why wouldn't it be? **** Give me a break. When was the last time any of those topics were allowed on the forum, with all the touchy feelly new age assumptions ect ect - In Peace --without interference? I said something else real important but I cant remember what it was...... Oh right I said the AG posters want to play and were not interested in resolving anything.now . And that the only way I could see to resolve all the garbage was to have a facilitator and allow evidence to be brought forward so that people could admit failings, mistakes ect. But for that to work both parties would need to interested in resolution and it doesnt appear that XYZ from AG are interested at all cause they would rather play and are getting milage out ot the 'opposing forums/anti-ex ' thing- which they now say is 'beneath them.' Which I find interesting because it would have been so easy for Salam to prove his accusations. The fact that he didnt bother proving them tells me that he is more interested in raising dust than actual facts. He enjoys getting people worked up and calling people names. He is useless at resolution becaue he wants to be useless at it. And he thinks that is funny. Yes, and again, I want to thank you for being a voice of fair, reason in an environment that seems to offer one thing particularly to its visitors and that's the lack of any pressure to be accountable for anything. You were great in that initial challenge to Salam. Good for you standing up to such an ornery piece of work when he's surrounded by his harpies. And yes, I've felt just the same way about some other specific lies these guys are bandying about. Deb claims she never threatened Pat and that I'm lying when I say she did. That's a bald-faced lie. She threatened him so intensely and, like I say, I've got two witnesses, one of whom heard the whole thing, they were that close to the phone. The other just hear my end of the heated discussion where I had to literally scream at her to retract it or else I would be compelled to do something about it. Yet she goes on and on about how 'insanely deluded' I am. Yeah, right! The other is her recent claim that she has 'posts and emails' that prove that the 'inner circle' of exes (whoever that may be) don't want any media attention at all for fear of accusations of libel. That, too, is a lie. Deb is too cowardly to talk with me directly. Maybe she's afraid of that secret brain re-programming we do or something but I did get a chance to ask her to join me on Symp before Dave blocked me again. But no tribunal is going to happen because, for one thing, these guys aren't sincere. They don't really believe what they're saying. That 'playing around' you're talking about encompasses their attacks on the forum too, if you can believe it. *** Well this is one topic we agree on. I too think Salam owes an explanation re this Deb debacle . I have learned however, that Salam makes things up in order to get a rise out of people. I am not sure who is claiming they have emails- but if it is Salam then dont hold your breath. BTW - the only reason I felt I could take on Salam is because basically I trust him. Half the stuff he says and does is to defend who he percieves as the underdog- and oh yes some Jewish thing. He is predictable in that he thinks he is a dirty fighter but he shows his desparation eventually and contradicts himself. PS- Now that you have read all that I want to say that the upper part of my post is something I have recognized for a long time. So lots of it is colored by festering opinion. However, I do think that the recent months have changed the tone of the ex scene and F7 has become a more user friendly place. I think it has happened because the Cult ittself has changed in that there is no denying much of what is on ExOrg. So there is not an urgency about PROVING we are right. I must also say that you are largley responsible for the change in atmosphere and I really respect the way you handle people these days. You dont seem as hot headed as in the past. Now if only you and your goons would back off and allow astrology talk and aromotherpay reciepes the world will be a better place. And oh ya- some meditation and God talk would be nice. Zelda the Libra

Subject: Re: Here's what happened From: Jim To: Zelda Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 21:05:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Zelda, Thanks for your long reply. I've just got a few substantive points to make in response but first, one procedural. You know, last time it was the spelling of Gerry's and Jerry's names. This time it's HTML. Zelda, I'm no pro by any means whatsoever but the italicizing, underlining or emboldening commands are a snap. There's really nothing to them and they may a world of difference in making posts legible if you're quoting someone. Do you know them? Anyway, I think that where you and I disagree most is over the issue of when one's 'trespassing' by joining a thread. I think it's all fair game in an open forum like this. I expect both primary AND collateral comments or questions to anything I say and I think others should too. The moment you want it private, get a room. :) No, seriously, the moment you want it private, take it to email. Otherwise, that's just the nature of a forum. Frankly, I love it and wouldn't have it any other way. Half the fun and/or interest in posting is never knowing what kind of collateral question or comment's coming next. And Zelda, you ain't never going to get any no-comment buffer zone around subjects like astrology. Why? Because people like me just looooooooove to rip into it! I do that in life in general. If someone tells me that they're into astrology (thankfully, fewer people like that all the time, at least in my world), like someone did at this party I went to last week, you bet I'm going to get into it with them. Hell, Zelda, it's fun ... AND I wish someone had done that with me years ago too. I make no apologies for trying to disillusion someone about astrology just like I would make none about trying to disillusion someone about Maharaji. Don't know why, lots of reasons, I'm sure, but that's just me, I've searched my conscience on this many a time and feel good, not bad, proud, not shameful, for the effort. Perhaps if you can tell me why I shouldn't feel that way, I'd change my mind but, for now, I think it's a good thing. Thanks, though, for your compliment. I try not to swear at people anymore but, beside that, I think I pretty well say the same stuff as always. But yes, the forum's great right now. Several great former regulars aren't around now but even they pop in once in a while and that's always good. As for the current regulars, there are so many good, clear voices, it's truly a pleasure to read here. The AG crowd lost their bearings, in my opinion. Oh well, the hard work for them's already done. They're OUT of the cult and they can turn their back on the good work done here all they like. But I know. I was around when Selene first showed up. I know how much she leaned on all of us to get her through the transition. And same for Deb whose first posts were about how much of a basket case she was wandering the streets of Victoria crying uncontrollably, unable to function, so shocked was she to learn that Maharaji wasn't what she'd thought he was. And Salam as well benefitted immeasurably from the work and interaction with the online exes. So they can do and say what they want. Salam can put up as many stupid web sites as he likes. They don't fool anyone with half a brain. And thank you once again for standing up for truth and decency in those arguments.

Subject: Re: Here's what happened From: Zelda To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 22:38:53 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Hi Yes I know how to use HTML but I cant find it as an option when I am on the forums. I will look again. Yes we disagree on stuff and it is too late for me to go into it again. Suffice to say it has to do with freedom of expression ... . And I love party battles about astrology cause it is so easy to illustrate.. And whose to say YOu shouldnt get a room if you want to complain???? HMMM? Just want to say that one of the saddest things for me in the past week or so was to see you and Dave fall out. I get the impression he was really trying to find a way to get some peace established and unfortunately debunked your long association with each other. I dont think this was his intention. One thing to his credit- he has made a clear statement that gay and racial bashing wont be tolerated on AG. That Means that quite a few of his regulars are not getting what they want. I read your long post to him and it made me misty . There is so much history there. Z.

Subject: Re: Here's what happened From: gerry To: Zelda Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 17:15:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, the AG stuff, that's REAL important. I actually thought you wanted to bitch and moan about exes or the forum (silly me!) and there's plenty of that over on AG. And I spell my name with a g. 'Jerry' who posts here occasionally lives back east. I live in McCleary Washington. And you have an amazing memory! You remembered your post almost word for word. Almost as if you cut and pasted it! Too bad Jim's memory wasn't as good! But no, I can't just "do some computer stuff" to find out who is calling me. Do you actually think these people would be brazenly harrassing me if there were any chance the fucking cowards would be caught??? gerry--F7 loyalist and guerilla on patrol

Subject: Thanks, a few corrections From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:44:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The calls are not 24/7 but they have been going on for three days, not two days. I'll get a spate of calls spaced fifteen or so minutes apart, same thing every time. The frequency is increasing. And I'm not sure that I DIDN'T give Carlos my phone number because I very well may have given Carlos my number. I'm not blaming anyone as I can't prove a thing about who it is, but I have reported it. Jim had to ring off suddenly as he got another call so we didn't go over the details.

Subject: Re: A forum for spiritual ex-premies? From: Mike Finch To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 09:20:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat This is very interesting. If you had asked this same question any time over the last 15 months say, since I first posted here, then I would have answered 'Yes, we need a softer, gentler spiritual Forum'. I felt that F7 and its ancestors were throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and that rejection of M and Knowledge should not mean automatic rejection of other forms of meditation and inner searching. But I feel differently now. Although I am practising a form of meditation (very different from Knowledge, of course), and in fact for me it is an important practise, I don't want another Forum to discuss it. I agree with many posts on this thread, that the beauty about this Forum is its openness, and as long as trolls and people who deliberately disrupt are kept out, anything relevant to M and Knowledge should be up for discussion. Although I have not posted here for a while, I am quite comfortable to post about my current meditation practise, and the assumptions behind the practise, and I don't think I would really care any more if any regular posters here did not like that. In fact, I would welcome constructive criticism of anything I say - 'constructive' of course being the operative word. So here I am, having wanted a 'spiritual' Forum for some time, now it is being offered I am saying I don't think it is a good idea ! In any case, too many forums dilute, and I think this F7 should remain focused and concentrated on Maharaji and Knowledge (sorry, Prem Rawat and Self-Knowledge), and issues arising therefrom, and to the extent that my current 'spiritual' practise is relevant to that, I will post, if ever I do again, here. -- Mike

Subject: I remember, Mike From: PatC To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 10:43:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When you first arrived you politely suggested more civility. At the time I agreed with you on the ''civility'' thingy but not on the cause of the incivility. I've always felt that that was a result of exes being so loathe to censor anyone that they tolerated the cult disruptors who created an atmosphere of fear and confusion. The exes reacted by being defensive and nasty and it permeated nearly all other conversations here. So I set out to make it my job to see that the premie disruptors were not tolerated. I've also talked to you privately about ''spiritual'' stuff and pretty much know where you stand on it. Like you, if I post about my meditation here, I expect to be questioned, criticised and analysed. I welcome that but many don't which is why I am offering a spiritual forum.

Subject: Re: A forum for spiritual ex-premies? From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 08:54:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC, Atheists are okay in my book. IMO they would be able to really experience meditation in the way that I define it, an experience of emptiness, meaninglessness, and spaciousness. An atheist wouldn’t have any spiritual concepts blocking or cluttering the experience and ironically would be closer to a Theravadan Buddhist. Meditation in the sense I define it is like having two mirrors facing each other with nothing in between. Concepts get in the way of meditation and an atheist has an advantage in the sense that they are carrying less baggage. It’s just that conflict between Jim and I - and even you on occasion -became rather tiresome. Jim thinks that something is better than nothing; and I think nothing is better than something. That’s a pretty fundamental disagreement. Jim loves to cling to his memories and I see clinging to memories (at least all the time) as an obstacle. I think that Sir Dave is right in that there has been a fundamental shift in the ex mindset. As for Mr. Rawat, the cat is already out of the bag, and there is really nothing more to prove. The truth is out and we can choose to follow him or not. When you struggle against something you reinforce its reality. I would just like to see exes continue on the spiritual path as well as the intellectual path. They were originally attracted to K for some reason. Did you ever have a political argument with someone that went nowhere no matter how long you argued? And then it became tedious. In summary, I didn’t really feel that my contributions were being appreciated or valued here. It’s a tough crowd, you gotta admit, so it took it elsewhere. No big deal! =)

Subject: Brilliant Dep - Thanks! From: Christina To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 10:37:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Meditation is like having two mirrors facing each other with nothing in between.

Subject: Brilliant like a pretty fog, you mean From: Jim To: Christina Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:12:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That sentence sure sounds nice. But does it mean anything? No and that's part of its appeal.

Subject: Re: A forum for spiritual ex-premies? From: Anandaji To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 22:08:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mostly post on the Recent Ex-premie forum. I enjoy this forum as well, but there I feel a bit more comfortable being 'vulnerable' if you will over there. For new arrivals (now six months for me), the Recent forum is a good place. I never heard it described as a 'spiritual' forum, though. But there is more discussion of what people are doing to fill the void there. I love this forum, but there are times when it feels a bit like walking into a pub and asking for milk. Please understand, though, I wouldn't ask for anyone here to change a thing. I still come here regularly, mostly seeking cult updates. Over and out. May the good Lord bless and keep you. Jai Sat chit Ananda. BoleashrisatgurudevmaharajkeeJAY! Remember, peace on earth begins within you. Leave no room for doubt in your mind. Eat shit, dump it in the garden; beautiful flowers will grow. Oh, this experience is so beautiful. Burp.

Subject: You are suffering from a major mental disconnect From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:49:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No other way to say it, Dog. You've got a serious problem with respect to the many issues we talk about here and unless you're willing to talk about them fairly and openly, you're in no shape for the forum. Yeah, that's right. I think you're not up to it. Let me put it this way. In this very post of yours you've said things that are big conversation stoppers / starters (stoppers in the sense that they obscure the original issue and starters in the sense that they most certainly invite fresh scrutiny and consideration.) But you are in no shape to actually have those discussions. Why? Well, as you've said, you're not a 'prickly' person, you're 'gooey'. Discussions, Dog, if they're real discussions, where various opinions are weighed, sifted through and considered this way and that, are, by definition, 'prickly' using your terminology. If you're not amenable to the climate, you should move. Especially when it's a group activity as your 'gooeyness' here (ie your refusal to discuss things rationally) is frustrating to anyone who hopes to engage you rationally and disrespectful to the forum generally.

Subject: You are suffering from a major mental entanglement [nt] From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 21:00:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The first post of yours I could read From: hamzen To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:56:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: with some interest, and in case that sounds like some withering put down to someone, it's just meant as a straight statement of fact. No vaslue judgements ok, yeah, dep, believe it or not? But one thought does spring to mind, to quote you, 'When you struggle against something you reinforce its reality.'. Does this mean that on issues like racism, which is on the rise here in europe at the mo, albeit of a more subtle variety, that the only way to affect it is by ignoring it, care to expand?

Subject: Re: The first post of yours I could read From: Dep To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 19:47:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: with some interest, and in case that sounds like some withering put down to someone, it's just meant as a straight statement of fact. No vaslue judgements ok, yeah, dep, believe it or not? But one thought does spring to mind, to quote you, 'When you struggle against something you reinforce its reality.'. Does this mean that on issues like racism, which is on the rise here in europe at the mo, albeit of a more subtle variety, that the only way to affect it is by ignoring it, care to expand? --- Hamzen, How many wars to end war have we fought? Yin and Yang, you push me me and I push back. Peace comes from people who are at peace. And how to people become peaceful?

Subject: The Fine Line... From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:15:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, There's a very thin line between continuing to practice Knowledge meditation as we knew it in the cult and going through the exiting process then choosing a new spiritual path. It's inevitable that some of us will become atheists, agnostics, decide to follow a mainstream religion, something else altogether, or just nothing. Doing nothing about one's spirituality is okay too. Whatever makes me happy for myself. I think once a premie feels fairly relieved of the programming mechanisms which Maharaji placed in our lives to make the Knowledge meditation a connection to him with Maharaji as the 'proprietor' of that meditation, with all the trappings and obligations that go with that proprietorship, I really don't think it's my business to try to sway someone to not explore meditation. Each of us as individuals brings something different here based upon not only our cult experience but how we live our lives and how our lives have affected the way we view the world now. You have a history that's quite different than mine, i.e., I started posting here after I realized I was an ex-premie (with many bumpy starts and stops). You started posting here as a premie. It doesn't make you bad or me good. It's just a matter of where we started out. Btw, I never followed your and Jim's arguments much because I felt it was between the two of you as individuals, not representative of the entire posting presence on any of these Forums. I have also come to believe that using any meditation right after exiting a meditation/personality cult is not good for one's emotional and mental well-being. I've done a lot of reading on this topic. There is a state within the meditation, whether taught by Maharaji, or Krishna people, or Moon, or anybody who places a hold on one's freedom of thought which I believe keeps exiting premies in a state of confusion. That's my opinion. It doesn't mean everyone has to listen to me or obey me. It's enough we obeyed a guru for x amount of years. I wonder where freedom of thought ended upon entering Maharaji's cult. I also wonder and try to examine in myself where freedom of religion ended too. There was and is a point in that cult when thinking is forbidden and questioning the guru is off limits. There's the fine line. I have come to realize that there was a point in my life that I ignored everything negative about Maharaji I ever saw in person or heard about him because of the contant obligation to surrender myselft to him and his mindf**k. I heard so many stories about Farkiranand and what he did and as recently as 1997 premies were still laughing about ''oh, they got him out of the country fast!'' You see, I think that's the result of mind control. Never question anything about him. There was much controversy about Ted Patrick and his methods--I knew one person whose parents arranged to be kidnapped by Patrick a long time ago in Connecticut. She came back once, then they gave it a second try and we never heard from her again. I don't agree with a lot of what Patrick did when he was deprogramming people from cults, i.e. kidnapping, but I don't completely discount it either. There were many other deprogramming groups that cropped up as a result of Patrick's efforts and they were flailing around and injured people by not having the correct information and tools to be deprogamming cult members. So deprogramming has now become synonymous with Ted Patrick with a very negative slant. Now the deprogramming is referred to as exit counseling. But I have read a lot about this and re-entering the real world and meditating on guru techniques is not healthy at least not in the beginning. That's MY opinion and what has worked for me. From everything I've read about the after-affects of being in a guru worshipping meditation cult, the advice is to try to stimulate one's mind, not continue to block it out by meditation. I think that to use meditation as a means of healing from a meditation cult is counter-productive to understanding where one starts and where the cults begins. It actually is a contradiction. But everyone, again, has the individual choice as to how they are going to do it. I think the reason Jim is so often called a bully is because he has been doing this forum for so long he automatically sees the flaws in someone's thinking process and calls them on it bluntly. It may not be in the manner that someone likes, but I do understand where he's going when he confronts someone about a belief system. Sometimes I think he's too harsh, sometimes I think a person is being too sensitive. Those are the limitations of looking at a computer monitor. To lay the inadequacies of this forum on two or three people is wrong. Many of us contribute to negativity here because negativity is naturally contagious despite the cult. Fights break out but as I have come to know people here I've learned to understand that written words on a screen are a far cry from normal communication. Not being able to look at someone's face, eyes, listen to the intonation of their voice is what limits us in this format. I don't think there should be another forum I think we need to try to work out relationships between eachother here. Or simply agree to disagree. Sarcasm is also another thing I have personally been working on. Its root is from Greek which means the 'tearing or ripping of flesh.' I chuckle when I say this, because I can be very sarcastic and that sarcasm can be just as painful as telling someone bluntly they are missing the point. None of us is perfect. Learning that is also part of leaving Maharaji behind because of his demand that we reach perfection. I think I could have just said we all need more tolerance for eachother and saved myself writing all this, but I've been observing factions and alliances going to extremes and at the center of it all is not spirituality per se, but how we treat others as a humans. We all have vulnerabilities and I want to respect that. I want to progress not digress. I think the disputes happen when the name calling starts, we misconstrue the meaning of a post, and all hell breaks loose. One of the things about me and meditation is that I don't have a problem with anyone practicing a meditation. For me, however, it's been difficult to divorce myself from the connection of meditation (of any kind) to Maharji and the the belief systems in which I became engrained. I think practicing tolerance and learning that I can't make someone change and be how I want them to be is the key to improving this forum Best, Cynthia

Subject: Very astute, Cynthia!! (nt) From: Gregg To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 13:24:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Another BEST! Whole thread BEST OF? [nt] From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 12:00:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: As long as you're happy, Dep. :P From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 10:52:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I still think your posts on AG and LG are going to be lost in space. Would you like a spiritual forum? Would you like to be FA? Have you ever tried to get into Recent Exes? I've never really made it clear to you that I have no problem with your meditating. Hey I do it! What I have a problem with is your cliches. For instance you posted this on AG: Freedom is a state much prized within the realm of civilized society. It is a bond wherewith the savage man may charm the outward hatchments of his soul, and soothe the troubled breast into a magnitude of quiet. It is most precious as a blessed balm, the saviour of princes, the harbinger of happiness, yea, the very stuff and pith of all we hold most dear. What frees the prisoner in his lonely cell, chained within the bondage of rude walls, far from the owl of Thebes? What fires and stirs the woodcock in his spring, or wakes the drowsy apricot betides? What goddess does the storm tossed mariner offer her most tempestuous prayers to? Freedom! Freedom! FREEDOM! Now, to me, that is - well nonsense - er, well maybe it's poetry (''drowsy apricots?'') It sounds like a stoned pot-smoker philosophising to me. Is it a joke? Is it a bird? Is it a plane? :C)

Subject: Re: As long as you're happy, Dep. :P From: Dep =) To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:03:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I still think your posts on AG and LG are going to be lost in space. Would you like a spiritual forum? Would you like to be FA? Have you ever tried to get into Recent Exes? I've never really made it clear to you that I have no problem with your meditating. Hey I do it! What I have a problem with is your cliches. For instance you posted this on AG: Freedom is a state much prized within the realm of civilized society. It is a bond wherewith the savage man may charm the outward hatchments of his soul, and soothe the troubled breast into a magnitude of quiet. It is most precious as a blessed balm, the saviour of princes, the harbinger of happiness, yea, the very stuff and pith of all we hold most dear. What frees the prisoner in his lonely cell, chained within the bondage of rude walls, far from the owl of Thebes? What fires and stirs the woodcock in his spring, or wakes the drowsy apricot betides? What goddess does the storm tossed mariner offer her most tempestuous prayers to? Freedom! Freedom! FREEDOM! Now, to me, that is - well nonsense - er, well maybe it's poetry (''drowsy apricots?'') It sounds like a stoned pot-smoker philosophising to me. Is it a joke? Is it a bird? Is it a plane? :C) --- PatC, That bit is from Monty Python and was written by Eric Idle. It is absolutely hilarious gibberish! The same show includes the Cardinal Richelieu sketch, Inspector Dim of the Yard, and information on how to recognize different types of trees from quite a long way away. No I would not like a spiritual forum. I would not like to be FA. I have never tried to get into Recent Exes. Thanks for asking though PatC. =)=)=)=)=)

Subject: Re: A forum for spiritual ex-premies? YES From: janet To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 04:34:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: when I first saw thsi topic begin, I had hoped to see more substantive and affirmative resposes than I see below. I would say that yes, this forum definitely is anti spiritual and hostile towards anyone who comes here and wants to speak of their actual experiences or convictions or real life encounters with that side of life. I for one have resented the hell out of the crass reception I have met with, when I have lobbed my own life experience into the discussion. i never brought up such topics carelessly. yes, pat, I do think such a forum as you stipulate would be a good thing to have. i asked to join RE and was met with a chilling reaction like unto the shrinking away from a mental patient. it galled. i had emotional issues and personal issues I needed to talk out, and was denied. i think i have proven these last two years that I can hold my own in various arenas with various ground rules. i can add my voice here as well as over at the symposium and jump into the nuttiness at AG as well. I made my appearances at LG, for that matter, what with carlos and that whole chapter. but i have noplace to voice my valid spiritual side, and its getting old. i can speak of it in my favored chat room, but i can't work out my cult issues there. and im gettin real tired of holding it in over here. some of us have had experiences, encounters, chapters in our lives, that deserve a valid arena in which to speak and tell of our history in the spiritual realms. bobby manrodt wouldnt recant any of his, despite any amount of pressure from this forum's self styled 'bullies'. anyone who has gone thru a near death experience and lived again, likewise. there is a dimension to living and dying that no amount of intellectual rationality can reach when it happens to a person, and i get damned weary of putting up with people who think they know it all, swaggering around and cutting down the rest of us who may have lived thru something quite different. so, yes, if you are going to be so thoughtful as to make a place for those of us who would embrace a place where we cant speak openly about what we have lived, in this, I would be there at once. what i witnessed at my mothers deathbed is not fodder for some asshole to get up and shit on, to ridicule me and aggrandize themselves, by. and i hope my sharp words ring out and bring out all the others here who would like a similar forum in which to speak honestly and without an agenda about their/our understandings in this meaningful subject. i say YES. open such a forum. and thank you for articulating the case so well. you got it exactly right.

Subject: Don't blame the questions, Janet From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:56:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janet, You have made some extraordinary claims here regarding various spiritual visitations, etc. and you've also clearly stated that they're not negotiable as far as you're concerned. That is, when you say so-and-so appeared before you (can't recall who exactly but you've cited a few of these 'experiences'), you've just ignored any questions or challenges regarding your interpretation of these impressions. Well that doesn't cut it on a discussion board, Janet. It just doesn't. Those are important and controversial claims on your part and yes, many of us here are skeptical, to say the least. I guess you could enjoy another forum where you talked about these fantastic moments knowing that no one will raise an eyebrow. Too bad you didn't get into Recent Exes. Perhaps you should re-apply. Maybe they'll reconsider.

Subject: So, you wanna be FA? From: PatC To: janet Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:00:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have a similar problem with you as I do with Dep although you are a far more entertaining and original writer. It's the stoned trippy stuff that get's to me but maybe you guys do need a trippy forum to talk about your spiritual stuff. Would you help administer it? Also - there is the matter of money. I won't pay for it and it would have to be financed by the spiritual exes. But, I hear you loud and clear. There are certain delicate subjects that get trampled on here. I guess I'm just not a very delicate flower.

Subject: Re: delicate subjects that get trampled on here From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:55:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've never noticed that Pat ,I was pretty sensitive when I started posting here; said a few wobbly / new agey thngs but was only met with kindness and understanding...and have felt totally supported in a way I never expected. Sure I went thru' guilt and paranoia too, but there's a helluva lot to work thru'. RE sounds like a bit of a club , who's running it?

Subject: Criteria for Recent Exes Forum? From: Cynthia To: janet Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 05:22:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Janet, I do appreciate your feeling of rejection upon being denied access to the RE forum. One of the issues that has always bothered me about that forum is the secrecy surrounding it. Secrecy is one of the elements of being in a cult which prevents members from leaving. While I understand some folks may need confidentiality, I do not understand the great need for so much secrecy. What the hell is the purpose of that forum and how can anyone who is not involved make an accessment about whether or not to even request admittance? This is weird. It seems to me that if there already is a forum, the RE, what is the need for a new one? I now question the criteria for being accepted to that group of posters. I had no idea you were rejected from RE. I think that is terrible. You said: i asked to join RE and was met with a chilling reaction like unto the shrinking away from a mental patient. it galled. i had emotional issues and personal issues I needed to talk out, and was denied. This is unacceptable in my view and downright wrong. Who is screening exes for this forum? Who is the person responsible for making judgments about who will fit or not fit in at RE? This is disturbing news. Steve Q. was also denied entrance into that forum and I was not happy to learn about that when it came up here. No one should be rejected based on information regarding someone's emotional or mental illness. That's discrimination IMO. I though the whole point of RE was to help any ex-premie with personal and/or private emotional and spiritual issues in order to help exit the cult and resolve internal conflicts surrounding the spiritual abuse! I don't understand the need for so much confidentiality. That RE is a passworded forum is fine, but to be screening people without any real explanation is not something I endorse. That's why I thought a spiritual forum wouldn't be necessary--I really thought that the purpose of RE was to help people not to exclude them. Does whoever runs that forum have any accountability to anyone and again: What are the criteria for gaining access to a forum that is sponsored by EPO? I sincerely believe everyone has a right to at least know the purpose of that forum and I'm so sorry you were dissed Janet. I understand well the stigma of having a mental illness and being rejected on that basis is plain wrong! Now I really want to know what that forum is about. Best, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Criteria for Recent Exes Forum? From: JHB To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:52:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynthia (and anyone else interested), The procedure for getting access to the Recent Exes forum is send a request by email to the FAs (email address on EPO). The FAs then do a basic screening process, checking stuff like if the person is an ex-premie, and then put the request to the current posters on the forum. If the current posters are happy, then the person is given access. From the outside it looks mysterious, but as the whole point of the forum is for people to post knowing their posts are confidential, how can it be otherwise? I requested admission because the question arose as to whether it should be featured on EPO. Valid concerns were raised about new people going there and never posting on EPO. I can report those concerns have proved unfounded, and that the action is here. Nothing mysterious happens there. In fact, at times, nothing happens at all, but I think it has value in that it provides a place where people can talk to other ex-premies in confidence. In this regard it's not that much different to email conversations between exes which happen all the time. The issue of rejection is a tough one. Because of the democratic nature of the application process, although secret, some people will be rejected. The FA admitted that Steve's rejection was not handled well, and I believe the process has since improved, in that the reasons that people are uneasy about a specific applicant are now put to the applicant, and I know that some have accepted those reasons, and have recognised that RE is not for them. I have no knowledge of Janet's rejection, or how it was handled. I hope this helps. John.

Subject: Yeah but what about BEFORE you joined? From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:36:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, You're just reporting on what you've seen on RE since you've been reading it. What about before? Ask your fellow RE members.

Subject: Re: Yeah but what about BEFORE you joined? From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 22:48:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I joined there were threads going back a month or two which I read, and nothing untoward was happening. I think someone would have noticed had some wholesale censoring occurred for my benefit. If you're refering to Run's time as FA, then the forum was very different then. He was continually egging other members to discuss the atmosphere of F5. He got booted out, or resigned, but he ended up as being unpopular there. When I joined that first time to adjudicate between you and Run about an argument you were having on F5, I also read the whole thing, and before Run took over as FA, it was like it is now, pleasant and harmless. A couple of times since I rejoined, people have started threads about you, and have been immediately stopped on the grounds that it's inappropriate to talk about people who can't answer back. So what question would you like me to ask other RE posters? BTW, on LG you have been accused of outing people here, when I called the accuser, someone else responded that you outed Run and Nimrod. I can't recall these events. Is it true you outed them without their permission? John.

Subject: Re: Yeah but what about BEFORE you joined? From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 23:02:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Re RE: (funny, huh?) -- just do this, if you're interested. Ask some of the regulars there, if I was being dissed and how badly during the period just before you joined so you could 'monitor' RE regarding the propriety of maintaining the EPO link. Re LG: No, as far as I recall, I didn't out either Run or Nimrod. Not as far as I can recall anyway. Why, did you? :) No, seriously, who's saying that?

Subject: Re: Yeah but what about BEFORE you joined? From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 05:28:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, Robyn accused you of outing people (2 or 3) but can't remember who. Someone anonymous said it was Run and Nimrod. Robyn said she'd get back to me. Re; RE, I'll think about it, but I can't see it doing any good. It certainly hasn't happened while I've been there which is quite a while now. John.

Subject: Re: Yeah but what about BEFORE you joined? From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 08:23:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, Let's drop the RE thing. You know what you've seen and what you haven't since you've been posting there. Let's just leave it at that. As for Robyn's claim, as usual poor Robyn is confused. The only person I ever outed was Vacol (Keith) and that was years ago. What happened was this. Vacol had come onto the forum as a premie who relished the challenge of debating Maharaji's legitimacy. He approached me with flourish and bravado, clamouring for attention and pronouncing his great (and soon to be infamous) clarion call: LET THE DEBATE BEGIN! Well, no sooner had we started, like immediately after, then he began doing the premie snake dance (or was it the premie chicken dance? Can't quite remember.) Simultaneously, he emailed me under his real name, Keith, and, sorry, but I wasn't so sensitive to the Rights of the Anonymous Poster then, having not actually read the Magna Carta for years. You know. Anyway, I was angry. I thought this guy was playing me -- us -- for fools. 'Great debate' my ass!, I thought, and so I outed him as Keith on the forum. And that's about it. Keith since went on to become a petty new age guru in his own right. He might even have a follower by now. And I stayed right here. By the way, please ask Robyn what her current views about her friend Quiet are. Quiet, you'll recall, came onto the scene a few months ago claiming to be a new poster, a recent ex in fact, who was collecting info about all the 'illegal acts' we claim Maharaji has committed. He also said he was an Aussie law student who lived with or shared a computer with five or six other exes, none of whom chose to identify themselves right now. Oh, they had their reasons! On top of that, the only interesting thing about him was that he couldn't spell well enough to run the teleprompter on Hee Haw. Several people, myself included, tried to communicate with him, establish some basis for trust as, on the face of it, he wasn't making sense. What was his trip? His angle? Who knew but one thing we suspected was that he was certainly not what he claimed to be. When he refused to answer any questions about himself directly or with any apparent sincerity at all, Gerry and Pat called him a fake and a troll and blocked him. Robyn, who hadn't been posting for some time, jumped into a thread, on AG I believe, where she warned him in the strongest possible terms to not 'open up' to me as I was a bad, untrustworthy person who had done many terrible things to people over time. This then led to much needless fractiousness between AG posters, a precursor in some respect to the recent Debacle (thank you, Pat), as Quiet, or Q, found friendship and much to talk about with Robyn and a couple of others, namely how bad Pat, Gerry, I and others were to suspect him of being anything other than what he claimed. Quiet loved it. He ate it up. Long gone was any further mention of his initial effort to rally support for the nebulous plan he had claimed to have regarding Maharaji. All Quiet did now was flame me and others, making stupid lawyer jokes and sounding like a ten year old ADD sufferer reacting poorly to Ritalin. Oh that and blow lots of air kisses to his new friends, Robyn, Selene and, of course, that paragon of mental health herself, Deborah. Anyway, it recently came to light that Quiet is, in fact, no law student at all. Indeed, he's not even quiet. He's Twiz (a/k/a Oliver, a/k/a Des Parado a/k/a Phil Garrett). Or, to be more accurate, he's posting from the identical computer as those former 'contributors' to the forum. Twiz who is a mentally unstable ex in Australia who posted on and off under that variety of aliases, none of which he admitted at the time. How did Chuck notice this? Well, Phil's latest worthwhile gesture as a human being was to quit posting as Quiet and start chasing me around everywhere, flaming me with ugly lawyer jokes, under a new disguise as ZB. Phil still has no idea what he did wrong. So, please, John, ask Robyn about her friend Quiet. Is she still worried about the terrible harrassment and suspicion he suffered?

Subject: Robyn attacked you, Jim, From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 10:25:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......and defended Quiet on Chit Chatroom. That's what actually started the Debacle. And thank goodness it all happened because it provided enough agitation to seperate the wheat from the chaff and we now have a sane F7 where game-players are no longer humored.

Subject: Yes, I agree completely -- and John? From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:24:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Discussing this further with Laurie this morning, I now remember that, in fact, it was Drek who 'outed' Nimrod to the extent that, while he was FA and also running EPO and had access to such information, he identified Nimrod as someone posting from an internet cafe in Montreal. This was when Joey, suffering from his own paranoid delusions, began posting as Nimrod to attack Roger relentlessly, accusing him of being a premie 'plant' or spy on the theory that, by ridiculing certain former PAMs on his irreverent site, he MUST have been trying to scapegoat them somehow in order to deflect criticism from Maharaji. Drek couldn't take the harrassment after a while -- there's no talking to someone in that state -- and threw up his hands in despair, giving the wheel, which he'd only had briefly, back to Brian. Brian came down on Drek like a ton of bricks, caustically denouncing him to the core and that triggered the first big fight we ever had as some of us thought that, well, Drek wasn't quite that bad. :) As for Run, Gerry outed him, I believe, when Run exhausted his patience, again with paranoid delusions. In Run's case, he was accusing me of being a cult-leader and using RE to foment that kind of idiocy. Gerry had enough and identified him as Seth from Texas. So what's Robyn saying anyway? Could you please show me?

Subject: Thanks for the history lesson From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:06:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have to go to work soon and don't have the time to go back to LG and reread her posts. But none of them are about you anyway. :C)

Subject: Oh, I lied. Robyn re your outing of exes From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:15:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just found one I had not read. Now I really must go and see if I can get a fair trial for some brown lentil boboti. Robyn on LG: Dear John, I believe he has done it 2 or 3 times but am positive about the first because I was floored, shocked, pissed and felt so bad for the person. A gentle man who must have come to terms with it because he is an ex that got one of those ex-premie cards made not so long ago. He use to post as Anon but there may have been other Anon's at different times, not sure on that. I believe it was before the forum was using Brian's software. I am so bad with time and dating stuff. I can email some people from back then and see. I don't even remember his name and I think I thought he was from Germany but that he was really from England. I am thinking what a horrid memory I have but then I remember obscure facts like the fact that the Statue of Liberty in NY Harbor is 200 feet tall! I will try to get some info on this for you. Love, Robyn

Subject: Yes, well ....... From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:41:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that, Pat, and hopefully your little lentils will avoid the death penalty (although I hear they're in very hot water!). I'm afraid that poor, gentle Robyn is confused again. This time she's talking about none other than our own Patrick Wilson who used to post as Anon and who I used to encourage to post under his own name (this is way back when there were hardly any of us and every stand up name seemed to count somehow). He finally did, thanked me profusely for egging him on and has, in fact, been a strong advocate for crossing that line ever since. Any chance you can post this for me on LG, just for the record, so to speak? Not now of course. Later. Thanks, Jim

Subject: Done [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 16:39:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: A forum for spiritual ex-premies? From: Bolly Shri To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 03:55:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That is so open minded and fair, I think I'll make you my new guru. Just joking, it's not an identity I'd put on anyone.

Subject: Re: A forum for spiritual ex-premies? From: Bolly Shri To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 03:55:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That is so open minded and fair, I think I'll make you my new guru. Just joking, it's not an identity I'd put on anyone.

Subject: Thanks, Bolly. Just send checks to....:C) [nt] From: PatC To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:03:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: A forum for spiritual ex-premies? From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 02:45:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat, You said: One of these is called Recent Ex-premie Forum which I don't know much about. From the little I know, I gather it was meant to be a kinder, gentler forum for traumatised recent ex-premies - a detox or rehab joint. There are whispers that it was started as a password protected forum to exclude people like Jim - atheists,anti-spiritualists and other objectivists - labelled ''bullies'' by the more sensitive spiritual exes. I don't think the original intent of the Recent Ex Forum was to be able to talk about spirituality. I was part of that forum very early on and my experience was that it was a place for those who were having difficulties emotionally and spiritually with the exiting process. It was a place to discuss more personal life issues that were affected by leaving m after a long time. It may have evolved to a place to be away from confrontation now, but I wouldn't know. When I was there the discussions were just about private matters. Because I believe that Maharaji committed spiritual abuse I also feel a bit wary of yet another forum being started for ''spiritual exes.'' I think it might lead to more polarization between exes, vis a vis, the atheists vs. the believers. I still don't know what the answer is regarding those who want to post here about their search for spirituality. I certainly don't want to be preached to about this or that newly acquired journey someone may find which suits them. There must be some middle ground here that can be found to allow for those exes who are not atheists.

Subject: I fixed your italics From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:06:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And thanks for the info about RE. I don't have answers but I do have plenty of ideas. :P

Subject: Re:F7 is not spiritual-friendly. From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 02:43:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, its healthy to have your cage rattled once in a while, who knows, you may discover that YOU have been the prisoner! Open debate can be intimidating for those used to control and censure of speech and thought for so long; in fact , it is the very violence of one's own reaction to an 'anti-spiritual' posting that may be interpreted as a litmus test for one's own dogma. If you don't agree with a viewpoint, say so, and why. That's the benefit of F7: if I were to say I LOVED meditation, and it put me in touch with my soul, there would be those that identified with my statement and those that thought it was a crock of shit... so what! it wouldn't change how I FELT...unless of course, I was faking it... And if I thought it was a crock of shit, then I would be expected to say why, and make sense for all to understand, otherwise I'd just be a loud mouthed reactionary, wouldn't I?! LOVE, AV...(really...there's a LOT of good hearts here, and good minds too; who knows who's right or wrong ultimately, what we understand is contantly in flux, evolving, unfolding...that is part of the beauty, our gift also, I am sure.)