Subject: Fakiranand From: The Falcon To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:32:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: not sure why my previous posts have disappeared (been censored???) but would like to ask what people think about Satpal showing up in Leicester this weekend with his bhajan budgerigar- Fakiranand. Is it just me that thinks it wierd?

Subject: Sorry, thought you were Catweasel From: gerry To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 13:21:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Musta been the accent. I don't censor posts but I delete spam. Sorry, my call, my mistake. It would help if you introduced yourself a little because it's only polite and we get a lot of feral Aussie varmints around these parts.

Subject: Aussie Varmints From: PatD To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 14:04:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..what do they know about what happens in an obscure hall in Leicester,England? I'll wait.

Subject: Re: Sorry, thought you were Catweasel From: The Falcon To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 13:48:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what accent? The second post may have seemed wierd but was in response to Spartacus who has not yet replied. I will post more later and introduce myself although Mike Finch and Patrick Wilson know me. Regarding my earlier comment on rabbits, no offence to Nottingham Bunny but I do love to eat rabbit (with a red wine sauce and polenta) but would not want to kill them, unlike M.

Subject: You now have introduced yourself:) From: JHB To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 13:53:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Falcon, Just by saying Mike and Patrick know you is enough of an introduction:) BTW, do I know you? Welcome! John

Subject: Re: You now have introduced yourself:) From: The Falcon To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 14:00:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yes we met at the last London latvian evening.

Subject: Re: Fakiranand From: PatD To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 12:52:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I saw your earlier post,& the reference to the uzis. Didn't have time then to respond. Why did you say that? I knew a premie,nice guy but totally spaced out,who went to the wrong hans jayanti(Satpal's)in India during the '80's. After he'd realised his mistake he ended up backstage trying to get out,& was escorted away from the festival grounds by armed men. Freaked him out a bit.

Subject: Re: Fakiranand From: The Falcon To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 14:04:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: just a joke.I was recently invited to meet Fakiranand in order to 'put me back on the path of Truth' I would not want to close my eyes anywhere near him. Hammers in the 70s and God knows what in the na(o)ughties.

Subject: Naughties - good one Falcon From: Richard To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 14:15:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Welcome Falcon. Interesting relevations concerning Fakiranand. I received K from him in 1972. I think he would have made a Great Soul (or at least a great guy) had it not been for his misguided zealotry. Whoever even nudged him toward attempted murder should be held responsible. After all, not a leaf moves without Satguru's agya at his former level of devotion. That's a funny one, calling the 2000's the Naughties. Hadn't heard that before. Richard

Subject: Re: Naughties - good one Falcon From: The Falcon To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 14:22:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: my money is on Raja Ji but we will never know. Mind you RJ always had good charlie, he used to roll into town and say 'queen's head or eye in the pyramid?'(Pound or dollar to roll up) what a freeloading wanker

Subject: just a joke. From: PatD To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 14:08:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....I'm on a very short chain these days.

Subject: Re: just a joke. From: The Falcon To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 14:18:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a limitation of this medium I'm afraid. It does not surprise me re; your pal and the guns in India. They have all that property to protect after all, that is my ultimate conclusion to the Indian guru business-LAND!

Subject: I also thought it odd that your post was deleted From: JHB To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:38:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .... although your second thread was a little esoteric! How did you know it was the same person? Did you recognise him after all these years? I don't think it's so weird. When I worked in the City in London people would switch banks, so why not switch employers if your employer is a guru? It's only business after all:) If the switch of allegiances is confirmed it is worth adding to the Fakiranand account on EPO. John.

Subject: Fakiranand gone over to Satpal? From: PatC To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:36:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting. What posts of yours disappeared? I haven't seen any by you before. You may have typed them into the wrong box. Nothing's been deleted from the forum in weeks.

Subject: I saw them earlier Pat NT From: Jethro To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 12:36:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Fakiranand in Satpal's camp for many years From: Carl To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 12:34:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (I tried to delete the question mark from my subject line.) There is no question; Fakiranand had switched years and years ago, basically around the time of the big family split, if I'm not mistaken, or not long after. I saw him in India in the late 70s and early 80s, associated with Satpal's Manav Dharm organization, or an early incarnation of same, and again in the U.S. in the 90s when he was presumably doing some Satpal-related propogation to the Indian communities in CA and perhaps NJ.

Subject: Pat - the posts were here From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:40:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There were two threads started by Falcon - the second was a little weird, so maybe Gerry deleted both without checking the first, which had a couple of responses. John.

Subject: A posting from JG From: Jethro To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 23:28:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just found this posting from someone called recent-ex to a premie called Spydoc(I think that is David Roupell or another lemming). This post has gone unanswered, as similar ones have in the past. Perhaps some present student of Prem Rowatt or even Prem Rowatt himself could afford the rest of the world(or at least me) an answer. Anyway here's the post from 25th May 2002: A person proclaims: 1)to be the most powerufl incarnation of god of all time... 2)that he will rule the earth as a king.... 3)that the entire world will realize that he is god.... 4)that an unimaginable paradise awaits us, if we all will serve him, and literally bring the kingdom of heaven on earth....the lion will lay down with the lamb.... 5)he will teach you how to always be in a state of bliss, which he supposedly is in...(now we know better...) 6)tells his followers to reject all 'worldly' pursuits, while he gets lost in pursuit of all of them, including acoholism, addiction to wealth,power etc... Well, I could go on all night long with the great statements that maharaji has made, all of them lies, manipulations or deceptions etc... His satsangs resemble bin laden and hitler's and if you don't believe that, read some of the original ones...like the peace bomb, on epo... Now you are telling me that new people would not want to know a bit more about this stuff?... If this stuff is no big deal, and doesn't bother anyone, why was it removed from ashrams in 1982,why is it hidden so carefully, and why are m and ev so scared of the original documents that are on epo? A person proclaims: 1)to be the most powerufl incarnation of god of all time... 2)that he will rule the earth as a king.... 3)that the entire world will realize that he is god.... 4)that an unimaginable paradise awaits us, if we all will serve him, and literally bring the kingdom of heaven on earth....the lion will lay down with the lamb.... 5)he will teach you how to always be in a state of bliss, which he supposedly is in...(now we know better...) 6)tells his followers to reject all 'worldly' pursuits, while he gets lost in pursuit of all of them, including acoholism, addiction to wealth,power etc... Well, I could go on all night long with the great statements that maharaji has made, all of them lies, manipulations or deceptions etc... His satsangs resemble bin laden and hitler's and if you don't believe that, read some of the original ones...like the peace bomb, on epo... Now you are telling me that new people would not want to know a bit more about this stuff?... If this stuff is no big deal, and doesn't bother anyone, why was it removed from ashrams in 1982,why is it hidden so carefully, and why are m and ev so scared of the original documents that are on epo?

Subject: Cult Leadership 101 From: Gregg To: Jethro Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 09:55:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think Prem Pal must have been passed out on the divan clutching an empty flask of Remy St. Martin when the Cult Leadership 101 class was meeting. There has got to be a better way of dealing with embarrassing moments from his past like the 'Peace Bomb' satsang than hiding it in the closet and, even worse, somehow blaming his misguided followers for his crazy bombast. Spin, Prem Pal! Explain why such over-the-top rhetoric was appropriate for those days. That wouldn't be too hard. Turn it into a positive, is what some of the better spinmeisters would probably argue. Pretend you knew wht you were doing all along. Burning old copies of 'And It Is Divine' (what a clunky name!) and blaming Avatar worship on misguided Westerners (did we write the words to Arti?) is just plain stupid.

Subject: It's so EASILY explained... From: Andrea E. To: Gregg Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:37:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Prem Rawat was just a BOY when he gave the "peacebomb" satsang. Besides, all little children are prone to exagerating things when they tell stories. And I think his mother let him eat far too much sugar, and you know how that can affect children, don't you? And really, be honest now. Have you ever met a 12 year old that DIDN'T think they were God in a bod? I have not. And anyway at that age, kids will often joke around, it's called "just KIDding" for a reason. Jeez, don't you guys have any sense of humor? Probably not, because you're in an Ex-Premie CULT. All the COOL students got the jokes right away. Really, what the heck did 12 year old Maharaji ever do to YOU? I think you ex-students should be ashamed of yourselves, picking on a mere child. I think this should be investigated legally, as you are probably guilty of child abuse. To make it even worse, your attacking a child that doesn't even exist anymore! Poor 12 year old Maharaji, can't even defend himself against your vile accusations because He's all grown up now. You all should be ASHAMED. And Maharaji/Prem doesn't need to take any kind of a "101" course, because He is the MASTER. If you would just SHUT UP and LISTEN to the Master, like a good student SHOULD, you wouldn't have all these troubles you keep going on about. Sheesh! As for the lyrics of Arti (a fun little Indian Halloween-type song), that was a cultural misunderstanding, which Maharaji/Prem solved, by turning Arti into elevator music. If some of the old students of the Master happen to remember the lyrics and sing along, it's hardly Prem's fault, is it? Anyway, it's POETRY, you cretins are totally lacking in subtly, aren't you? I don't know of a single modern SYNCRONIZED PWK who would admit to believing the lyrics of Arti literally. Not a single one. (My brother isn't syncronized, so he doesn't count). Oh, and as for "clutching a flask on the divan", I'd like to remind you that He can do whatever He pleases, because He is You-Know-Who, giving You-Know-What. You seem to have forgotten that. No wonder you don't understand anything, and keep filtering out the good. Quite sad, really. Andrea E. :), Who no longer uses her last name, because she lives in absolute TERROR of the Ex-Student, Ex-Premie CULT, with their abusive, question-mongering ways. :O

Subject: Re: It's so EASILY explained... From: Jean To: Andrea E. Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 12:20:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Andrea, you're sooo right, i FEEL how much are these ex-people nothing but utter loosers. You ARE so right! When You-Know-Who is giving You-know-What, and when You-See-What-You-See and You-know-What-You-Know, one is right to Think-What-One-Thinks. (I don't know what the translation of this very french joke sounds like). LOT of fun, hope to read more of this right stuff in the middle of the mud of these deluded sad folks here :)) Jean

Subject: Re: It's so EASILY explained... From: Jean To: Andrea E. Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 12:20:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Andrea, you're sooo right, i FEEL how much are these ex-people nothing but utter loosers. You ARE so right! When You-Know-Who is giving You-know-What, and when You-See-What-You-See and You-know-What-You-Know, one is right to Think-What-One-Thinks. (I don't know what the translation of this very french joke sounds like). LOT of fun, hope to read more of this right stuff in the middle of the mud of these deluded sad folks here :)) Jean

Subject: Andrea, would you staighten this dude out please? From: Andy Daverdson To: Jethro Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 06:17:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean,like I'm just a cannabis encrusted 70's fossil who likes to bliss out at the lotus toes while grooving on the latst prem-rawat music video of watching hundreds of poor indian peasants feet as he march towards the real 'feet', if you can dig where I'm coming from, but hey dude, there's an explanation for all of this, it's just that I don't seem to have it , but my sis, Andrea, she'll explain it, like pronto, cos she's a PAM, or at least a wannabe PAM, who hangs with some REAL wannabe PAMS in upstate NY, and like she's even got a website that considers this and considers that (and considers everything, except the truth about prem, but hey, what the hell, go figure...), and she's got cats and dogs and a nice, comfortable house and a hubby too....whoa, my sis, she's really something, so I'll let her reply, cos she's synchronised and clear, amd me, well, I'm just too busy tuning my piano and rolling a nice big fat doobie for the speaker and our next recodng session, where he might even be compassionate even if he does hear some loud feedback, and well I'm just too blown away by THAT experience to go further, so Andrea, sis, some 'sang please?.....

Subject: Andy , maybe I've missed something From: Jethro To: Andy Daverdson Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 07:27:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but what is this nice big fat doobie for the speaker? Is doobie American slangor Australian English? What does the speaker do with doobies?

Subject: Doobie doobie doo - enhancing Knowledge From: PatC To: Jethro Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:02:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Andy, like many thoroughly modern PWKs uses doobies to enhance Special K. Knowledge goes better with drugs, doobies, joints, splivs, Paxil, Zoloft, Remy Martin etc. ''You can't fit K into your life. You have to fit your life into Knowledge. Knowledge is everything. It's not a hobby or something you do on the side. It's ALL you should do. You can't just do K when you want to. K is something that you do all the time. If you see K as the ultimate experience then how can you fit it into your life to suit yourself?'' Does anyone remember Rev Rawat saying that over and over again for the first ten years at least? I just got this email from a friend in Oz. Stop Press: Premies enhance the Ultimate Dozens of premies in Brisbane (nearest city to Amaroo) are presently visiting an channeler named Alexis who, by virtue of some very nifty hand movements, gives their 'energy body' a major workover. Premie visitors include an instructor. Amaroo's management have booked in too. This is more than one of the fads which swirl through Australian premiedom like schoolyard crazes. (Remember kombucha tea? Hypoglycemia?) The Alexis experience, according to attendees, 'enhances the experience of Knowledge'. It seems extraordinary that the Ultimate could be enhanced in any way - but it appears to have happened. Meanwhile, two hours down the Pacific Highway, the heavy dope-smoking by northern NSW premies - including M's most fanatical defenders on the web, an instructor, and the majority of the rest - continues apace, mostly for the same reason - to say to add a bit of extra juice to the Knowledge of all knowledges. Knowledge Plus, anyone?'' I replied: The same thing is happening here. You name it - and the prems are into it - ''emotional body massage therapy,'' ''radiant light therapy,'' ''aromatherapy,'' ''psychic readings'' etc. The local City Contact even has another meditation teacher and has said to me that he prefers going to his yoga meditation classes rather than being with other premies as the 'vibe' is better. That doesn't even take into account some of the less New Age therapies that the premies are getting into up to and including heavy boozing and the newest ''mood enhancing'' pharmaceuticals. I guess K doesn't even work for those who have been doing it for nearly 30 years. It certainly hasn't worked for the cult apologists who have spewed their bile on these forums for years. No one can accuse them of having ''good vibes'' or being kind and loving.

Subject: Doobie doo where are you? From: Neville To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 13:11:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember premises always being into everything going--if there was something weird, occult, eastern etc then premises would be in it up to their third eyes. Perhaps they were attracted to the weird. Or perhaps they were just card-carrying suckers (seems plausible). Neville

Subject: Re: enhancing Knowledge From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:14:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny PatC, but your post reminds me that many of us first opened our doors via pot and hallucinagenics. Once the doors were swung wide, the road company of Satguru Has Come marched right in. So it's only logical that, in order to keep the M&K dream alive, it would be helpful to throw oneself out of whack with chemical enhancement. For others, the occassional event keeps That Place within inside buzzing. Richard, far out man

Subject: Aum Shinrikyo Cult Still Has Appeal From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 22:50:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why Japan's Terror Cult Still Has Appeal For a cadre of loyalists, the group that released poison gas fills a spiritual void That's the headline and intro for an interesting article in The current Time Magazine. This part is worth mentioning. Asahara's group, which in 2000 changed its name from Aum Shinrikyo ('Supreme Truth') to Aleph (the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet), endures because its most loyal followers can't let go of their devotion to Asahara and his teachings. Hmmm, sounds remarkably similar to TPRF and PR. I'm not insinuating that M/PR is up to sarin gas terrorism but the above sentence certainly rings true. One follower says: 'I can't really figure it out, but there is a part of me that still hopes he can save me. I still want to believe in him'. Attention premies / pwsk: If you ever find yourself thinking like that, please take a hard look at why you believe in M/PR and ask yourself is he worthy of your trust. Why Cult Still Has Appeal Asahara's group, which in 2000 changed its name from Aum Shinrikyo ("Supreme Truth") to Aleph (the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet), endures because its most loyal followers can't let go of their devotion to Asahara and his teachings.

Subject: What do you expect from the land of Shota Kon? From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 02:42:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Shota Kon is a form of anime/manga/hentai (cartoon pornography) which depicts children being sexually mutilated. It is very popular on the internet and no I will not describe it. It's as disgusting as the Shinrikyo Cult. There is a cancer at the heart of Shinto (a primitive animism which infects the Japanese soul) that is as sick as Hinduism or Islam.

Subject: An ex returns to the cult From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 16:12:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Uptil now I have been taking Deborah's posts from LG to Symp for Jim to read as he is blocked from LG. I didn't figure they were interesting to most exes because they were mostly about her hatred for Jim. However her latest two posts are more like cult apologism and I would like to see what other exes have to say about them. Perhaps she could get a job with Prem's PR team. So here they are. --- --- --- -- Deborah to Catweasel 6-8-02 Cat, How did they make it from the 70's to the present without going through the '80's and the '90's is what I want to know. Nobody at the ex-forum seems to be able to do the math. I rec'd K in 1980 but all my friends were the early '70's crew and they all embraced the change. What are these exes talking about and how come it took them over 25 yrs to figure out Maharaji changed his public discourse. I know that the answer has to do with a loser, never was anyone-never knew Maharaji, Pam envying ex who left that long ago and is pathetically stuck in that time-warp. New exes come along and buy up the whole disgruntled enchilada not realizing those concepts were personally handled for them decades ago. Weird eh? Why don't the exes at least talk about their own life rather than battle demons of complete strangers? cheers, deborah, who is only a one-post woman today --- --- --- --- --- Deborah to Carlos 6-9-02 I'm being honest-most exes are not and if they had experiences that were more real, they wouldn't be saying the stupid sad sack shit they do. Most of those are from people who either were so rigid and socially stunted at the time, (and I know some of the exes who never say those comments and non-coincidentally, were'nt stunted) or they are in denial of the changes they flowed with until they got brainwashed by a loser's story. Now, anybody with a clue could tell who's story that was I was referring to in that comment. Interestingly, all the exes who were hip NEVER make the type of allegations that I criticize. And I was no less ambitious than any premie to get darshan, I just was bold, and not dwelling in 'rightous little premie-land ' enough to act on it. That's the only difference. Wouldn't they like to think that they had the real thing and I didn't? Their imbecile responses attest to the opposite. Like I said, not all the exes. Some of them were very current, and embraced change. Dermot's description is mutually exclusive. An ex-premie cannot say those statements and have been hip and devoted at the same time. Impossibility. They would have been miserable and bitter and confused and lost and that would undoubtedly have hindered their expereince. Ironically, the exes who had the most significant experiences or darshan related history have the least hangups about stories like that. There's a good reason. They know for a fact that assertive premies got what they wanted. Many premies sat around feeling sorry for themselves, waiting for some magic invitation. And if you weren't hip or confident and able to play it cool, you didnt' get invited to the big house or around M. That's a fact. Think about which exes say what? Think about which exes don't say the same what? Speaks for itself. Cheers, deborah, who can't believe how frantic the exes retaliate when confronted with honest history

Subject: Re: An ex returns to the cult From: Bob Schmitz To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 01:41:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It has been 6 months since I last posted here. I have gone through very hard times being deported from the US, where my kids still live. Funny how one compensates, in my case I have immersed myself in optical theory, with a lot of math, which is, believe me, not my naturally favoured subject. It is just too painful to touch the feelings. It made the forum seem very irrelevant. Once in a while I lurked, but part of the problem was that I use a small 14' monitor now, which shows really small print. What does not help either is the slow dial up connection. But seing this thread I just had to react. Sure I can imagine someone drifting away from the forum, just like I have been doing, because of a shift of focus, different company or computer problems. What seems to me really WEIRD is that anyone having been around here for a while actually returns to the cult. What on earth are they thinking???? Can anyone explain any of this? Has someone ever done this themself? (i am not talking about premies drifting in and out of the cult but real exes) There is only one scenario I can picture; like my sister converting to Islam before she remarried Bob , now living in Holland

Subject: hello Bob From: PatC To: Bob Schmitz Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 02:05:38 (PDT) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: I know a little about what it was like for you and I am sorry that it turned out the way it did. This whole Deborah episode is such a long story - maybe you'll figure it out if you stick around. It's too late and I'm too tired to explain right now. I hope you are well and prospering.

Subject: Dermot's explanation (from LG) From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 02:12:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know if this makes it any clearer. I'm mostly reposting this as Jim cannot read it because he is blocked from LG. Dermot to Carlos Subject: So what do I think, Ccarlos?? Message: Well first off, I really wanted to leave once I’d finished chatting with WH, as I have a lot on just at the moment. However, as you ask what do I think, perhaps this is a good time to make plain a few things. Better to say what I think and to stand up for some basic values. Values I hope are common to Ex’es, prems and non-Prems alike. Though lately I’ve been mostly avoiding Deborah’s posts …..the posts of a troubled (IMO) individual in Western Canada don’t really affect my life , my views, my peace of mind or my “anything” really…when I do read them I usually find them hilarious (in the “totally absurd” sense, that is) and feel pity for her. The pity doesn’t translate into respect though. Nevertheless, no one can deny that she’s often been the centre of attention recently. I personally think she revels in being an “issue” and feels a bit put out when she isn’t. So, with that in mind, I’ll address the “issue” with a few of my own reflections. Then I’ll drop it because, as I’ve just pointed out, to me she’s not that important an issue to spend too much of my time on. Though it’s probably best to get some stuff off my chest. Anyway, Carlos, I notice on f7 you state that Deborah has real “class” as she once made a mistake about you and subsequently apologised. Well yes she did. I wouldn’t really call that “class”, I’d just call it normal. Just something a person should naturally do. Also, I know for a fact (100%, absolutely certain, no doubt about it , it’s all in the archives sort of fact) that , as in many other instances, she was first prompted by fellow Ex’es to face her mistake. I was the one (and I think other Ex’es too) to post on the forum and inform her that she’d made the mistake and should perhaps re-consider her position regarding you, Carlos. The instance I’m thinking of is when she attacked you in typical blunderbuss fashion, laying into you beyond all levels of reasonableness and, to top it all, actually got you mixed up with someone else! On another occasion, when she wanted to publicly diss a Premie on the web ( Sheldon Jaffe?) she was also advised to opt for decency and caution rather than some over the top action. I think she already realised this but still Ex’es were willing to advise her. Again, on this very forum (LG) down below you’ll notice her over the top “hitmen” language and talk of “taking them out” concerning Maharaji and Jagdeo. You’ll also notice Nigel politely pointed her in a more reasonable direction. So why point all this out? Simply because it reveals something very interesting, IMO. Those awful “pathological” Ex’es were the ones willing to point her in a different direction when she was veering beyond basic human values into realms beyond decency.This when she was still on the Ex’es “side”, so to speak. In contrast, sadly, she’s allowed full rein here. Not only that, it seems she’s positively encouraged to spew out whatever flows from her unchecked mouth. I think only one Premie, Lou, once voiced disquiet about the appropriateness of encouraging her. Perhaps he recalled the death threats to Maharaji/Jagdeo. However, Cat soon squashed that one. Any friend of an enemy is a friend of mine? Cat’s defence? People are allowed to change? In his heart of hearts , though, surely he knows the pattern of her behaviour hasn’t changed. Only her targets. The big difference now, though, is there are no longer any Ex’es to keep her excesses in check. Indeed, as some now are pointing out, those big macho OZ voices are silenced in her presence. Through her manipulative ways ( the same manipulation, no doubt, that got her those front seats and made her scorn her fellow Premies who just took things as they came) she basically rules the roost. Quite pathetic to behold really. To change tack slightly…I’d like to make something plain. If anyone befriends Deborah, well that’s fine by me. Personally I try to take people as I see them. I don’t feel too comfortable with factionalism. No doubt I’ve sometimes annoyed some folks on these forums and some have annoyed me. I don’t like to hold permanent grudges though. I’m always prepared to let bygones be bygones. Sometimes I lapse from this but, deep down. I prefer any difference to just be philosophical as opposed to personal. With Deborah though, sadly, it seems my patience has just run out. I tried my level best to communicate with her when things first started to take a turn for the worst but she firmly brought the curtain down. Jim also, for a long time tried to communicate with her (defend her, even) till again the curtain came firmly down. So too did many others but the curtain came down. Her new “enemy” had to be treated accordingly. It seems she’s never happier than when she has a “group” to hate and a “group” to manipulate. Sorry, that’s all I can see and it isn’t at all pretty. I simply can’t find anything to respect in her. That’s quite unusual in me, believe me. Maybe she’ll change, who knows? As it stands, though, after my time on these forums she is the lone single person I just no longer have any time for. Sad but true. Finally, that other issue. Did Deborah threaten to have Pat C killed? To some it’s a big issue and to others a non-issue. Me? I made up my mind a long time ago. I believe Jim is telling the truth and Deborah is lying. Plain and simple. She’s already on record as originally stating that a “verbal” threat is different and of a lesser order (really?) than a “written” threat. The clear implication being that she made a “verbal” threat but it didn’t really matter. This, by the way, was before Jim made public the full extent of the threat but it was clear he and Deborah both knew something “big” had gone on in their phone exchange. Also, does Deborah have a track record in this regard? Well just look at the threats dished out to Maharaji/Jagdeo. Given her natural responses to her “enemies” would she likely make such a threat to Pat C via Jim? Yes, I think so. Is it likely that Jim would fabricate something so extraordinary? No. I know what a lot of you Premies think about Jim and in my political discussions with him I’ve, at times, also been exasperated and pissed off. Still, unlike many of you Prems, I hold him in the highest regard and just do not think it is remotely likely that he’d just cook up something like this. No way. I’m amazed at how a lot of Premies have weasled out of this one. It’s so “in yer face” and obvious. Deborah is allowed to lie about this , that and the other and she’s allowed to spew this , that and the other but as Maharaji is now clear of any of it, then Premies remain mute. Dear oh dear, eh? Anyway, that’s all I’ve got to say Carlos. That’s what I think. Yes I try as best I can to be fair and gentlemanly. Sometimes I fail and say things I really regret. But do I regret having no respect left for Deborah? Nope. If she changed, maybe I would too. As it is, I’m no longer interested in her over the top deliberations. That’s just how it is. No doubt the feeling is mutual but I certainly won’t lose any sleep over that fact. Anyway, Cheers Carlos Time for a break now …. Catch ya later Dermot --- --- --- --- --- --- --- - And Carlos' response (including a gratuitous dig at Jim) was: Carlos-I hear you, Dermot. But Deb and I both felt she turned around about me not from the 'you are wrong about Carlos' remarks she got from several of you but from my not flaming her back but instead responding to each of her flame posts with an essentialy calm rebuttal. Maybe I'm wrong about that. And if it were anyone than Jim reporting the 'threat', maybe I'd buy it as something spoken in heat where she went too far. I haven't caught him in the lie direct, but do I consider him capable of it, to protect himself from losing face, or to advance his agenda? Damn straight I do!!! And he's used the lie indirect many times. One example that you may even have noticed yourself ... have you seen how he tries to divine my motives, is CONSTANTLY claiming some kind of 'admission' on my part? And frequently the context of the very post he is quoting from makes his interpretation impossible. And on the 'Deb threat/ no threat issue ... in some posts he flat says he has witnesses; in other posts it sounds like he had none. And until yesterday when Cynthia made me an apology I don't feel she owed me, Deb was one of only 2 exes who'd flamed me who EVER apologized. The other was gerry when he made a false accusation against me (not maliciously, he thought I'd done something to him I hadn't done.) But he didn't apologize until proof he was wrong was put on the BB. She apologized cause she found out her attitude was wrongly aimed. I think it would be good for Deb to take the next step in her withdrawal from exdom, and quit trying to have fun by poking at you guys. I think any engagement with you guys leads her into internal issues she hasn't resolved yet. But that isn't my business. What is my business is to say that in personal corespondance with me OFF the BBs I've seen the changes in her, the lessening of rage in her life, the increase in 'I' statements and looking at her part, & the lessening of 'you' or 'them' statements and assigning blame to others. It's been a gradual thing and she backslides when she gets involved with Jim or PatC, etc., but, guess what! in a fair number of eMails when she was at her most upset with exes and especially Jim, PatC and gerry, she never ONCE breached confidentiallity, not even of people she dispised and thought had done that to her. So my opinion of her is a bit different than yours. Which is OK; we just need to find things to talk about where we can get something out of it, rather than topics we'd just be at loggerheads about. If you come back, which I'd welcome if you ever wish to.

Subject: You make me sick, Carlos From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 02:30:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a disgusting snivelling Uriah Heep creep of a culthead you are, Carlos. You really revolt me. You said: ''...she never ONCE breached confidentiallity, not even of people she dispised and thought had done that to her. So my opinion of her is a bit different than yours.'' Deb sent all of my confidential emails to Roupell, you braindead two-faced lying hypocrite - it's all on record on Symp. You better wake up fast, Carlos. Either that or you are fully awake and are simply ignoring your conscience. How can you sleep at night having to live with so many lies? Especially all the lies you tell yourself.

Subject: Pat, PMFJI but you forget that From: Jethro To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 04:37:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bhaktis are expert at self-anaesthetism. He thinks it's all about seeing god everywhere. They make up the required lies to support 'their own truth'. Deviancy at it's lowest.(moonies and hare krishnas call it divine deception...aty least the admit it's deception). Also, if anyone's read the Ramayana, by Valmiki (not Tulsidas' version ), it is clearly explained that whatever a bhakti says becomes the Truth and when a bhakti sneezes the holy name goes out in 21 different directions. Carlos probably has convinced himself that he is doing a real service. These bhakti types are the most dangerous, because when they finally crack they go bananas. At least catweasel and roupell somewhat admit and know what scumbags they are. They like Rowatt BECAUSE of the type of person he is, ie a liar, bully and mysoganist...particularly the mysoganism which seems to be characteristic of quite a few Oz prems I have met. all the best Jethro

Subject: This one's a real corker... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 00:10:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From Deborah to Jerry: June 5, 2002 Jerry, But it's limiting to try to keep focused on a single point and as far as I'm concerned, boring. Well Jerry, The point is that the 'point' is merely the vehicle, not the experience itself. That's why so many (most?) premies use to fall asleep under those blankets. That could be for several reasons. 1. They meditated when they were tired, ie before going to sleep 2. Being woken up to meditate against their own will. People who are spiritual seekers normally accept discipline willingly as a means to fullfil spiritual goals. Many premies accepted the discipline begrudingly. That was one good reason for the ashrams to close. 3. They were not sure what the hell they were doing and never admitted it There was nothing there that interesting to keep them awake. Well, they probably didn't achieve the experience but just the process of the techniques if they considered it non-interesting. I don't experience it every time but go through the motion of the techniques, however, I am available for the experience by going through the techniques. The worse that happens is that my mind calms down, and my intention to focus on what i real gets practice. Gee! That is an achievement in itself. The discipline of going through the techniques is paying off for me since I've meditating again because it is getting easier to slip into that state and I am having it more often. One doesn't have the experience just because they philosophically believe they don't need a guru to have it. One has it, because they have it. And you don't have it because you can argue successfully about it, either. I don't get it while I am posting or watching television or talking on the phone. I get it when I am beyond my mental state and engaged in meditation. I sometimes can feel the 'holy name' surge outside the ritual of the techniques and practicing meditation brings that about more often as well. I don't know how you can speak for other premies' experience or for boredom. How do you know if they were focused or thinking about their premie lot in life or worried if they were 'getting it' or whatever? I do understand how you can speak for yourself, ,BTW, but not them. And did you find your successes in meditation boring, or are you thinking about your non-successes? cheers, deborah, who is not sure what you're actually saying or mean Now here's a woman who has a serious globalized thinking defect. She tells Jerry, and everyone else that they cannot speak for everyone or anyone else, yet she does it constantly. This is called talking in absolutes. It's a mental defect in thinking and has nothing to do with education or intellect. It's a problem in the thinking process. I don't believe she sees this in herself. This is clearly someone who doesn't have a clue about anything that happened to those of use who entered the cult in the early years and spent years in ashrams. Clueless, dangerous thinking, but clueless nontheless. A pity..

Subject: I just re-read that and - yeah, clueless it is From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 00:38:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I feel kind of guilty saying this because it's unkind but she reminds me a bit of Joan Apter in her two hour satsang era. I hereby dub her Deborah the Winger.

Subject: Re: talking in absolutes From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 00:21:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cyn, I found the expression 'talking in absolutes' interesting....I sort of get it, could you expound? I'm up against something that sounds like that coming at me from someone at the moment, it's very distressing because it's as if they are talking unquestionable truths at you without considering what they are saying could even be remotely debatable..... could you please help me out on this. Love AV

Subject: Speaking in absolutes From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 10:09:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV, Talking in absolutes is something I learned about because I used to do it on occasion. By on occasion, I mean a part of me had this flawed thinking process. It was often used in anger. Absolute thinking is also tied into globalized thinking. To stop doing it one must become aware of it and then reframe the thought process. Globalized thinking is when someone uses their opinion, good or bad, but usually bad, and broad brushes everything with that opinion. Eg., Every man in the world is bad because.....fill in the blank; all woman have been abused because....fill in the blank; all ex-premies are being put through thought reform by Jim Heller because he is a bully:) These statements aren't logical, nor true and honest statements. They are based on incorrect thinking. The words and phrases 'always, never, every, all the time are used when speaking in absolutes. Speaking in absolutes is when someone uses their opinion and states it as fact, often using the above-mentioned globalization of thought. It's flawed thinking. All men are not bad because some are abusive, for instance. Every one of Maharaji's followers is not bad because a few are cybertrolls. Everyone in the world is not an asshole because there are a few assholes in the world. In relationships of all kinds (intimate, employment, friendships, parent/child) talking in absolutes is common. 'You never take out the garbage.' 'You never are nice to me.' 'You always ignore my needs.' 'You always lie to me.' Those words, the 'nevers and always,' are absolutes. It's easy to get stung by them because they are stated as fact, and using them is hurtful to people because it places the recipient in a double bind. There's no argument for 'never, all the time, or always,' because the person speaking in absolutes believes in what they are saying. I guess this can be connected to cult thinking. 'Maharaji is always there for me.' 'Maharaji never lies.' 'Maharaji loves everyone.' All these are the absolutes Maharaji has repeatedly stated over years in his cult. After a while a premie will believe that what he says is true. In his case, though, I believe strongly that narcissism is involved and there's no questioning a narcissist who is unable to see anything about themselves as questionable or injurious. Learning to substitute these absolute words with 'perhaps, maybe, in this one instance, in my opinion, etc.' helps to recognize that the absolute words and phrases are false and illogical. In those phrases the truth becomes lost and the absolutes become 'globalized.' As I said, there was a part of me that used this defect in thinking as a protective device for me when I was a child. I won't go into the details of that because they are private. It took me a long time to reframe how I say things in this regard. My husband was a tremendous help because he would observe me whenever I would behave and think that way and call me on it. But it was my therapist who named it for me and taught me how to stop and correct the flawed thinking process inside my head and how I expressed myself to others. It wasn't an easy thing to accept about myself, but once I could step back and see how incorrect, and unfair some of my thinking patterns were I was very eager to change. That's the wonderful part of being human. We can learn about our flaws and choose to change them (or not):) It's not surprising that you and Pat have felt, as the recipients of this kind of thinking and speaking, the affects of it but were not able to put a name on it. I hope this explains. Because I am aware that I once had a part of me that used this flawed reasoning, now when I read Deborah's posts her globalization of all ex-premies as being 'whatever she chooses to say'' and expressing it as fact, is glaringly transparent. Learning about myself and this type of thinking and speaking was also part of growing up and becoming a mature adult...I hope this helps. Cynthia

Subject: Thanks Cynthia From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 14:05:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your post helps explain why, in recent years, I have bristled when someone uses an absolute. I am just not confortable with absolutist thinking because it smacks of bigotry and because it is arrogantly preposterous. Unless of course one says The sky is NEVER made of tuna fish which would be true. (Just had a tuna salad for lunch). I hear examples every day. Nobody ever talks about ... translates as I'm the only one intelligent enough to talk about . . . MPR loves to use that one. ALWAYS have faith in god. NEVER delay in attending sastsang. DON'T put off until tomorrow what you can do today. CONSTANTLY meditate and remember holy name. Richard, always right (except when I'm left)

Subject: Re: talking in absolutes From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 00:43:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When Cynthia said, ''It's a problem in the thinking process,'' I felt that I knew exactly what she was talking about but, like you, I would like her to elaborate as it is interesting.

Subject: Deborah is Bazza (or maybe Rob..) From: It's obvious, really To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 19:59:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but in tights (and uptight): Clue: Think about which exes say what? Think about which exes don't say the same what? Speaks for itself. Scintillating observation or what. QED.

Subject: They sound the same because....... From: PatC To: It's obvious, really Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 00:46:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''It's a problem in the thinking process,'' as Cynthia said. It's called ''telling so many lies for so many years that you can't tell the truth anymore syndrome.''

Subject: People of no importance From: Sir Dave To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 17:07:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think the to-ing and fro-ing on these forums is over magnified and it is not really what's going on. The net isn't real life and what is expressed on these pages isn't necessarily what's happening in people's lives. Playing out dramas on the web is only that - drama on the web and a waste of time, in my opinion. I mean, it doesn't have any relevance at all although it can be mildly interesting for a day or so. There will always be loudmouths and people who believe they are very important and yet what have we here? A few forums with a few people and a few loudmouths letting loose. Most people, I'm sure, don't give any credence to the online battles between premies, exes and ex-exes. They will come and read what they want to read about Maha and then quietly stop their credit card donations and nobody here will ever know about it. I have exed part of Wales in the last few months and yet none of it has shown up on the net because it was all done by post or by word of mouth. It's easy to shout your mouth off on the net but most of such shouting is of no importance or relevance to what is really happening amongst premies and exing premies, in the real world.

Subject: Exed part of Wales!!! From: JHB To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 02:02:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Congratulations, Dave! I hope you weren't speaking too LOUD while you were doing it. Also, if any parts of EPO are written too LOUD please let me know and I'll turn down the volume:) Whispering John.

Subject: Re: Exed part of Wales!!! From: Sir Dave To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 04:05:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well part of Anglesey, actually. Llanfair Gaerwen Pwllgwyngyll and surrounding area. John, if you read my post again you'll see I was refering to Deborah's post that Pat put up here.

Subject: Your post says no such thing From: JHB To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 10:14:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, Why can't you see that your post is totally unclear about who are the loudmouths you refer to? You also appear to belittle all debate between people who post here. Of course, you will answer that you didn't intend your post to mean that, but with a little more care in your use of language, you could avoid these misunderstandings. Did you get my email about searching zip files? John.

Subject: Honestly, how could you believe Dave here? From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 13:11:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's all a meaningless game to him, remember? Ones and zeros. No reason to be honest. Honesty's for real people in the real world -- maybe. Dave, once again you're lying your face off and, no, you won't admit it because that would take real world integrity. I'm completely with Cynth et al. on this. There's no way in a million years that you were referring to Deborah and Deborah alone and your attempt to pass that lie on us is offensive. Jim The Church lady according to Dave who says that I should take that description as a compliment

Subject: Generalizing... From: Cynthia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 23:58:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think the to-ing and fro-ing from these forums are not over magnified. What is over magnified is your ego. You can be so condescending and that really sucks. You do you think you are? You are not the big ole cybergod you used to be. And you've aided in the recent backlash created by Deborah who joined forces with the very trolls who attacked you publicly including your daughter. Sometimes you can be a real asshole, David. Go back to your little website and talk about the weather and boobs with your cybersex girls. You're starting to really disgust me. Talk about hypocracy.

Subject: Generalizing indeed From: Sir Dave To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 03:56:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought you weren't talking to me, Cynthia. Now have I ever said an unkind word to you? No, never. So why the venom for me? You needn't answer.

Subject: To: David... From: Cynthia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 10:24:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David, I am sorry I lashed out. I have no excuse for calling you an asshole. The reason I did is because I have felt insulted by your reducing what is said on this forum to a binary code. Also, I was having terrible insomnia and was feeling angry. You were the recipient. It was missplaced anger in this instance. This is not an excuse, but a reason--there's a difference. I guess I don't understand you anymore. Enough said. Cynthia

Subject: Don't apologize From: Jim To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 13:27:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave's playing games as he always does when he gets confronted on something stupid he's said. That's why he didn't ask you to respond. He knew exactly what you were talking about.

Subject: Re: People of no importance From: Moley To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 19:44:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The net isn't real life and what is expressed on these pages isn't necessarily what's happening in people's lives. Playing out dramas on the web is only that - drama on the web and a waste of time, in my opinion. I mean Well why bother to post this then?

Subject: Re: People of no importance From: PatC To: Moley Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 21:35:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Precisely, Moley. Dave keeps saying it's only 0s and 1s and unimportant but he also keeps thinking his opinion counts. Maybe we should just all pack it in and let people email Dave since he has just deprogrammed the premies of Wales singlehandedly. Perhaps he should stick to talking about ''gels'' bazooms on his own forum, ''How's the Weather?''

Subject: Talk about taking my words the wrong way From: Sir Dave To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 00:23:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't see what's offensive about my post. I was talking with Deborah's post in mind. I mean, if you want to see me as an enemy or something, well go ahead but my post does not imply that.

Subject: Liar! From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 13:14:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Quit playing us for fools.

Subject: You were talking in absolutes From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 00:51:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I knew that you were talking about Deborah but I also know that you are so used to talking out of two sides of your face that you sent your usual mixed message. It's a pity that you are so snooty and condescending, dear knight, because, when you aren't, you can be so astute.

Subject: oscars From: laffing girl To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 14:47:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i have been reading the forum for a couple of years and don't want to post or anything but recently i was talking to an old friend who has also had enough of all the crap and apologised for ever taking me to satsang in 1975 i said i would email something that i had saved but have now lost does anyone remember a spoof list of oscar nominations to prem pal and the usual suspects? i laughed so much the first time i read i only just made it to the loo if anyone can tell me where to find this or link it on the forum she can have a good laugh too i have searched the best of and the archives but no luck thanks in anticipation

Subject: Are our kids really immune to gurus? From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 12:14:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Read my story before clicking on above link. It's been said here by several people that our kids will never fall for the Hindu guru con-game because they are smarter and more skeptical than us. I'm beginning to doubt that. Last week I told the story of a professor at Stanford University who had briefly fallen under the spell of Shri Shri Ravi Shankar. She escaped because she was a particularly independent-minded woman in her late thirties. Last night a friend of mine, another professor at Stanford (philosophy) brought two of his graduates to dinner. One grad is off to Harvard to do her PhD. The other is going to MIT to do a PhD - both in psychology. Now these are the sort of people with whom you can have a real conversation. Last night we talked about Socrates, Epicurus and William James which of course led to religion and I put in my two cents worth about my brush with gurujism. Well, the psychologist who is off to MIT told me that his parents who live in Australia have just gotten into a Hindu guru, Mata Ji. His parents are my age and he is my son's age - twenty-something. I laughed and said I was not surprised as my generation seemed to be real suckers. We talked about how I had fallen for it because of psychedelics. Then he surprised me by telling me that he had checked out Mata Ji and had come away convinced that there was something very real there and that he was going to follow it up. I was shocked and asked him to keep in touch with me by email and let me know what happens. I also let him know in no uncertain terms what I thought about Hinduism and especially gurujism, charisma, staging, suggestion, psychological conditioning, brain chemistry etc. I told him to read EPO. I think I've got my work cut out for me for a long time to come. I can't believe that educated people can fall for this stuff. Ex-premies are uniquely positioned to educate people about the dangers of Hinduism and gurujism in particular. Maybe he will get his whole psychology dept studying EPO. I hope so. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi www.geocities.com/jai_shri_mata_ji/

Subject: Re: Are our kids really immune to gurus? From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:01:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I believe the answer is absolutely yes. I found this article on Rick Ross's website. Cults are infiltrating vulnerable young students. They are not only neo-eastern type gurus. The other type of thought reform are the many motivational speakers and the 'human potential movement.' These people and organizations have obtained mainstream fame and use that influence by getting corporations to have employee trainings. The url to the humam potential movement on the Ross site is: http://www.rickross.com/cgi-bin/htsearch Cults on Campus www.rickross.com/reference/icc/ICC252.html

Subject: Did you mean ''no?'' From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:14:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Me: ''Are our kids really immune to gurus?'' You: ''I believe the answer is absolutely yes.'' Judging by the link you posted, I'd say you meant ''no, our kids are not immune to gurus.'' It's very scary. Most of us early premies dropped out of university and were not on the whole very educated. In fact it seemed to me that most of the early premies were quite uneducated and had spent a lot of the time they should have been studying taking drugs instead. But most of our kids' generation seem to go to university and STILL they are not immune to snake-oil salesmen. If I didn't have a conscience, I'd invent a religion and get rich quick.

Subject: Yes...I meant...NO... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 12:28:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, didn't get much sleep last night...most definitely a no.

Subject: no From: Susan To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 21:29:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, at least not polygamous ones who claim to find gold plates in New York says that Jesus came to Missouri and start the fastest growing cult in the US.

Subject: Are the Mormons the fastest growing cult? From: PatC To: Susan Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 00:55:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wouldn't be surprised. They offer an alluring Reaganesque fool's paradise to certain retro type kids. But how could any rational person believe all that Latter Day Saints' crap about Jesus hovering three feet above the ground and...oh boy? I wonder is it any better than the Holy Roller nonsense. The LDS are a bit more civilized but so distorted as people - cramped, stifled Kens and Barbies. They are a political/economic force to be reckoned with in California. Scary stuff - much worse than the other major religious force here - the Roman Catholic Church.

Subject: Hari Krishna is back From: Jerry To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 18:30:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You can see them with regularity in New York in the East Village. And they're not old geezers trying to make a comeback, either. They're as young as we were when we became premies. Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna, Hari Hari, Krishna Krishna.....

Subject: I kind of take them for granted From: PatC To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 01:19:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We get all sorts of eastern religion adherents in the restaurant, turbans, long robes, pointy hats, bald zenists, saffron haris - I love 'em all. Some are as bats as the fruits, nuts and vegetables that I serve but they are all kind and sweet. But but but - there is something wrong - always. Mostly they have stopped studying western thought probably for the same reasons that we did - disillusionment with the Socratian/Epicurean foundations of western civilization. This Hindu crap really is atavistic. Why would westerners want to go back to what basically amounts to a form of fancy animism? Why not study Socrates or Epicurus? Instead of Buddhas eightfold path, why not revere Epicurus' eight precepts? Don't fear God. Don't worry about death. Don't fear pain. Live simply. Pursue pleasure wisely. Make friends and be a good friend. Be honest in your business and private life. Avoid fame and political ambition. I guess Epicureanism sounds so boring compared with finding the ecstasy of god-realization. It's the quick-fix catch - instant gratification. Some people grow out of that. Some people never fell for it. I sure did. There's no better Epicurean than a reformed hedonist.

Subject: Re: Are our kids really immune to gurus? From: Neville To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 15:55:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: None of us are immune to anything. I often think of Albert Speer and Martin Heidegger--intelligent men fooled by Hitler and Nazism. A lesson to us all... Neville

Subject: Re: Are our kids really immune to gurus? From: PatD To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 13:30:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....yeah I can believe all that.Once one starts thinking & knowing one realises that it's impossible to get to the bottom of everything,& then the seductive spiel of these people kicks in. I can show you something beyond your dreams etc....forget trying to be a renaissance man...that old possibility is gonzo. Didn't click on the link. The REALLY important question for up & coming snake oil merchants. Are gurus immune from the attentions of neanderthally challenged parents ? My kids are lucky,they ever fall for one of these guys,that guy is going to have to spend ALL his/her ill gotten gains on just maintaining...you know,that sooooooo simple thing.......breathing. Dat's de troof mon.

Subject: Does M make ALL K decisions? From: la-ex To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 07:37:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm asking this question because of a curious thing that I heard M say a few years ago in Wash. DC. This was probably 2 years ago, in the summer... there was a tour and I was on the east coast in the DC area and went to see him for one last time. I knew that I was already ex-ing, but figured, what the hell, let's see fatso one more time to see if he says anything worthwhile. (He didn't, in case you're wondering..) BUT, he did say something very interesting, and I would like to know if others have picked up the same thing over the last few years... He was talking bout things changing (of course, making it look like an evolutionary thing, not a massive 'clean up' effort, thanks in large part to the revelations on epo), and he talked about a person receiving knowledge. He said that he disagreed with the 'new process'...that he was from the 'old school', where the aspirant had to commit to knowledge and the master, then get it. He implied that in the 'new school', the aspirant could get knowledge after some process, but didn't have to make the commitment that they would have had to do in the old days. The argument he seemed to be citing was one that goes like this-'how can I commit to something,until I really know what it is?' In other words, let me have the knowledge, and then when I see what it is, I can commit to it, if it really is so great.... This was in contradiction to the old school, which said -'commit first,on faith, and then you'll see how great it is'..... ANYWAY, here's the point.... M made it very very clear that he opposed this new approach, but would go along with it..... So the question is, is there some sort of group of premies that advises him on how to present it? He made it very clear that he didn't agree with this new 'MO', but would go along with it.... Has anyone else heard him say something like this, or heard PAMS talk about this? It definitely came from hs mouth, and definitely seemed to indicate that the decisions for the 'new approach' did not come solely from him, but from others, and that thy were 'overriding' his opinion.... Anyone heard similar things? (I think this is an interestng and important point,,,)

Subject: Just a minute From: Sir Dave To: la-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 17:32:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've come to the conclusion that Maha is a total bullshit artist and the minute anything he says is considered to be important or have meaning, is the minute people start getting confused.

Subject: Precisely From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 01:22:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sometimes you are so damn astute.

Subject: K decisions-a bit more clarification From: la-ex To: la-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 13:23:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's the point I was trying to clarify: In the DC ramble-logue, M alluded to the fact that there were new changes underway, relating to the entire K-process. I think it was primarily in relation to the new, improved Auto/Self/DVD/ knowledge that he thinks will be the answer. In his description of it, he alluded to the fact that it would go a certain way, that he didn't entirely agree with it, but would go along with it.... This was different than M criticizing premies work....this was M saying that a new direction was being taken, but that he didn't agree with it, but would tolerate it. It seemed to indicate that the decision came from a group of people, and that in some way his input or perspective on it was being over-ridden. Does anyone think that was the case? Is there a group of premies like Alvaro or Tim Gallwey etc. who advise him on stuff like this? He would never admit it publicly...I'm just wondering if anyone thinks there is such a group. ALSO, in the same talk, he alluded to the fact that a group of people advised him to read some 'spiritual/new age' pop literature to get 'more with the times'. He said he thought about it, and decided not to read the books that were recommended, and was glad he didn't. Do either of these ring any bells? They would seem to indicate that M isn't the Big Boss he makes himself out to be....

Subject: Oh, he is From: Francesca To: la-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 23:23:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's just a new way to hedge your bets and have someone else to blame. Only in this case, he's blaming them in advance. He's really not responsible, you see. He only calls all the shots. He's also basically saying that he has to lie to people to sell his product. He's really 'old school,' but he's going to sell it like he's 'new school.' More bait and switch. Tiring. Same old, same old. --F

Subject: Translation From: PatC To: Francesca Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 01:29:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''I would really like to demand that you chop off you head and leave everything to me in your will before I give you the Special K but we live in the 21st century and we're not allowed to behead people in Malibu so I have (sigh) had to adapt to modern times and do a fucking stupid auto-K DVD which is just so outrageously unlike anything that my blue ancestor Krishna did - why it's just so technologically advanced and I'm so damn excited about myself I'm practically peeing my pants with pride at how far we've come since Shri Hans smacked manmuts' brains out with his walking stick... yadda yadda yadda....'' The guy is full of crap. Like Dave said, the moment you take anything the idiot says seriously - you're in trouble.

Subject: Whose really running the show? From: Inside Edition To: la-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 19:49:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, there ARE a group of trusted rich Malibu PAM's who 'advise' him (Tim Gallwey, Valerio and Alvaro Pascotto, and by the way, Mrs. A. Pascotto is the head of the new Prem Rawat Foundation)- and there are others (head mahatma Ira Woods) - but how can you really 'advise' when you are scared to death of pissing-off the Boss, and getting banished from the inner circle? Jean-Marie Bonthous (he whose name cannot be mentioned here) got 'fired' after the San Yisidro fiasco, and it took years to get back in. But there is only one person running the show in Malibu - the living lord of the universe!

Subject: Re: Whose really running the show? From: Crispy To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 07:28:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This whole thread has prompted me to revisit the Narcissistic Personality Disorder article (orginally posted a few months back by Cynthia). The tips at the end on how to deal with/handle a narcissist would be helpful for Pascottos, Galleys and other present-day PAMs! :- Here they are:- FIVE DO's/DON'Ts - How to Avoid the Wrath of the Narcissist: 1) Never disagree with the narcissist or contradict him 2) Never offer him any intimacy 3) Look awed by whatever attribute matters to him (for instance: by his professional achievements or by his good looks, or by his success with women and so on) 4) Never remind him of life out there and if you do, connect it somehow to his sense of grandiosity 5) Do not make any comment, which might directly or indirectly impinge on his self-image, omnipotence, judgment, omniscience, skills, capabilities, professional record, or even omnipresence. Bad sentences start with: 'I think you overlooked... made a mistake here... you don't know... do you know... you were not here yesterday so... you cannot... you should... (perceived as rude imposition, narcissists react very badly to restrictions placed on their freedom)... I (never mention the fact that you are a separate, independent entity, narcissists regard others as extensions of their selves, their internalization processes were screwed up and they did not differentiate properly)...' You get the gist of it. THE TEN DO's - How to Make Your Narcissist Dependent on You If You INSIST on Staying With Him 1) Listen attentively to everything the narcissist says and agree with it all. Don't believe a word of it but let it slide as if everything is just fine, business as usual. 2) Personally offer something absolutely unique to the narcissist which they cannot obtain anywhere else. 3) Also be prepared to line up future sources of primary NS for your narcissist because you will not be IT for very long, if at all. If you take over the procuring function for the narcissist, they become that much more dependent on you which makes it a bit tougher for them to pull their haughty stuff - an inevitability, in any case. 4) Be endlessly patient and go way out of your way to be accommodating, thus keeping the narcissistic supply flowing liberally, and keeping the peace (relatively speaking). 5) Be endlessly giving. This one may not be attractive to you, but it is a take it or leave it proposition. 6) Be absolutely emotionally and financially independent of the narcissist. Take what you need: the excitement and engulfment and refuse to get upset or hurt when the narcissist does or says something dumb, rude, or insensitive. 7) Yelling back works really well but should be reserved for special occasions when you fear your narcissist may be on the verge of leaving you; the silent treatment is better as an ordinary response, but it must be carried out without any emotional content, more with the air of boredom and 'I'll talk to you later, when I am good and ready, and when you are behaving in a more reasonable fashion'. 8) If you are a 'fixer', then focus on fixing situations, preferably before they become 'situations'. Don't for one moment delude yourself that you can FIX the narcissist - it simply will not happen. Not because they are being stubborn - they just simply can't be fixed. 9) If there is any fixing that can be done, it is to help your narcissist become aware of their condition, and this is VERY IMPORTANT, with no negative implications or accusations in the process at all. It is like living with a physically handicapped persona and being able to discuss, calmly, unemotionally, what the limitations and benefits of the handicap are and how the two of you can work with these factors, rather than trying to change them. 10) FINALLY, and most important of all: KNOW YOURSELF. What are you getting from the relationship? Are you actually a masochist? A codependent perhaps? Why is the relationship attractive and interesting? Define for yourself what good and beneficial things you believe you are receiving in this relationship. Define the things that you find harmful TO YOU. Develop strategies to minimize the harm to yourself. Don't expect that you will cognitively be able to reason with the narcissist to change who they are. You may have some limited success in getting your narcissist to tone down on the really harmful behaviours THAT AFFECT YOU, which emanate from the unchangeable WHAT the narcissist is. This can only be accomplished in a very trusting, frank and open relationship. ALSO OF NOTE: The onset of narcissism is in infancy, childhood and early adolescence. It is commonly attributed to childhood abuse and trauma inflicted by parents, authority figures, or even peers.

Subject: Hole in one, IE [nt] From: PatC To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 01:32:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Each way bet From: Peter Howie To: la-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 16:10:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is all an approach that lets him have K-lite on toast as well as sending the clear message to the old timers that the old truth is really still the truth after all. So now anyone can decide for themselves what MJ is saying. Point here, take the words literally and he says 'Try it and buy it' and point here and see the hidden meaning and implication and look at it this way and he's saying 'I'm still the old style guru after all'. Cheers Peter

Subject: I think that the impression he likes to give [nt] From: Loaf To: la-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 15:37:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Does M make ALL K decisions? From: Loaf To: la-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 10:04:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes I too have heard him 'play dumb' or play 'passenger' in the face of opposition. He likes to tease people into thinking that things are out of his control... at Harrogate a few years ago he said (of some videos in which he and his daughters had had a considerable influence) 'I dont know what all THAT has to do with Knowledge'.. which was exactly what the audience were thinking. This double bluff puts him on the side of the Premies, both struggling against the beurocrats upon whom all mistakes can be blamed. Peter Lee said to me once 'He aint so humble offstage' and its very true. At my Instructor Conference he made it very clear that he was in charge ... But clearly only when it suits him - and when the shit hits the fan.. it suits him better to shift the blame onto his shit covered fans.

Subject: Re: Does M make ALL K decisions? From: michael donner To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 11:08:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i have never experienced that m was not in charge...always ready to blame and shift blame as stated above. he is very comfortable playing fast and loose with the truth as it suits him, from my experience...and ...as peter lee is quoted above saying, 'off stage he ain't so humble'.

Subject: Re: Does M make ALL K decisions? From: Vicki To: michael donner Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 11:34:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The last time I saw Raja Ji, he talked about Maharaji not being the humblest of people, infact quite the opposite. But that of course is the master's prerogative. And then Maharaji popped up saying how former Masters were egotistical. He said it in the context of, and this is the jist of it, this wasn't how he was.

Subject: Re: Does M make ALL K decisions? From: JMcG To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 04:52:42 (PDT) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: Whilst agreeing with Dave and Pat (above) that M is full of it, and not to be believed on any subject (anyone who can forge his own lineage can do anything), and with Peter H’s good observation of the mixed message (IMO M’s most popular and potent weapon), for the record, what Mike Donner says of his day is true with bells on now: M decides everything. He has advisors and PAMs telling him things - but he is at liberty to ignore them and frequently does. M decides what goes on the road signs at Amaroo (minor), and how and where millions of dollars are spent (major) - and everything in between. For instance, Yoram - the guy who raises the money - will say to M: ‘M, we just can’t afford that.’ M will say, ‘Yes we can.’ (This in part explains EV’s ballooning debt situation.) Watch the PAM body language around M: faces like rabbits in the spotlight; bodies tense and edgy, terror frequently just below the surface; long, forced laughs. The PAM’s motto, even more than the grunt premie’s, is: ‘Tremble and obey.’ John

Subject: Re: Does M make ALL K decisions? From: Thorin To: JMcG Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 05:44:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John Tremble and obey Yesterday I listened to 90 mins or so of the 1977 Portland Co-Ordinator conference tape (as preparation for digitising). Even then (when M was just 18 years old) it is clear that this trembling and obeying feeling was very much in evidence. Amongst all the humour and bonhomie, Maharaji's message was crystal clear. Service is surrender and surrendering to Guru Maharaj Ji, surrendering to God (his words) was what was required. There was a palpable air of fear amongst the audience when Maharaji said this. Somewhere along, one co-ordinator voiced some doubts as to the direction of propogation (pracher). The poor co-ordinator just wanted to have Maharaji's clearer direction on this issue. Sheeesh Maharaji just blasted him, told him to go do some more meditation and, through that, he will understand what is required. I felt really sorry for this poor premie - he must have suffered deep anguish. Another instance is a co-ordinator who wanted some feedback from Maharaji about being a co-ordinator but not being in the ashram but being a 'householder'. Once again Maharaji's response was illuminating. Basically 'householders' were a burden and should 'step aside'. Unbelievable. Maharaji compared life after K to Heaven, before K to hell. Lots of other stuff was mentioned. He talked quite a bit about the initiator selection procedure and how he was intimately involved in this process. He used, as an example, of how Nick Seymour-Jones and Peter Ponton went through the IDP program but disqualified at the last hurdle by himself because they did not live or had ever lived in an ashram. I am not surprised to hear that Maharaji still takes all the decisions - he started young! Bests Thorin

Subject: Anyone going to Vancouver? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 17:09:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is there anyone here who's planning to go to Vancouver this Wednesday? Let me know... jimheller@shaw.ca Thanks

Subject: Core Consciousness From: Peter Howie To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 16:45:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi again. I've been reading amongst the neuro-everything - cognitive neurobiology, neuro-anatomy etc. One author Antonio Demasio - wrote a book recently The Feeling of What Happens - he has a nifty split of consciousness. Between core consciousness and extended consciousness. Core consciousness is the consciosuness that allows us to be and operate in the present moment - extended consciousness is all our memories, feelings sense of self etc - the 'who we are' bits. My conjecture at present is this: Is this core consciousness, this aspect of our functioning that keeps us in the moment - the part that all these religious groups including MJ, is this the aspect of our functioning that they are all after for us to be in. That is - for us to function in the moment only, to be present only. Or to put it another way, and this is my fun bit - to be like a dog or other animal that is pretty much in the present as well. To leave behind the evolutionarily fantastic aspects of our consciousness and return to an earlier evolutionary moment. This is different from the reptilian brain ideas which are pretty fruity. Anyway - I quite like it. MJ and his apostles asking us to return to an earlier evolutionary epoch. Hope this idea is useful Peter Howie Brisbvane, Australia

Subject: Re: Core Consciousness From: Jerry To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 18:03:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is this core consciousness, this aspect of our functioning that keeps us in the moment - the part that all these religious groups including MJ, is this the aspect of our functioning that they are all after for us to be in. It's interesting that question needs to even be asked. You'd think Maharaji, being so 'clear' because he's the 'master', would leave no confusion in our minds what he's talking about. The only masters (if that's what they are) I've come across who are clear on the subject of consciousness are zen buddhists. They're pretty clear on what their philosophy is concerning consciousness. To them, core consciousness, awareness in THIS moment, is the only thing real. Somebody should ask them how real it is in non-rem sleep when it's nowhere to be found. Anyway, yeah, that's what they encourage. BE AWARE. Be in tune with core consciousness, be mindful of it. Maharaji's a different story altogether. His is a hodgepodge of consciousness and idol worship - just be conscious but remember how important the master is because after all he's god in a bod who is clear about everything under the sun but just be conscious and remember the master who's everything you want to be but just be conscious. The two don't seem to fit together, do they. Amazing how it sells. Or to put it another way, and this is my fun bit - to be like a dog or other animal that is pretty much in the present as well. Yeah, but are they conscious, John? Science remains undecided. I just think this eastern philosophy of consciousness is akin to Descartes realization, of his being, wrapped up in his famous statement, 'I think, therefore I am'. Descartes, like his eastern counterparts wanted to touch absolute reality, so he started with the premise to 'doubt everything', but he couldn't doubt himself, that he was. The same with the eastern philosophers. Consciousness is a fact. It can't be doubted. It is. And focus on it can help clear the mind and ease concerns that plague it. Some people, apparently, even have superb mystical experiences through adroit focus on consciousness, something I myself have never been able to acieve. I like daydreaming and fantasizing too much.

Subject: Re: Core Consciousness From: Peter Howie To: Jerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 04:20:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your thoughtful response. Its interesting the way your response has unfolded. The same author Antonio Demasio wrote an earlier book called 'Descartes Error' where he showed through neuro anatomy et al how the body actually provides a feeling background and that consciousness without feelings/emotions is very feeble. He is quite scathing about how there has been this historical division between thinking adn feeling. He works hard utilising a lot of hard data to show that they go together for a person to function at all. In fact one of his examples is about the person who can't decide between two dishes in a restaurant and seesm to get stuck - you know the one MJ used to ponce on about. Well it turns out the guy had a brain lesion that meant his emotions and feelings didn't work. So ultimately making a rational decision deviod of feelings is impossible beause there is no ultime rational reason why a person should have one dish or another. Same with the whole of life - without emotions/feelings (Demasio uses them differently but a bit picky for now) we are unable to make decisions because most decisions need a larger vision, purpose, sense of purpose and that rational stuff doesn't do it alone. Anyway I now think more along the lines of 'I am therefore I think'. Cheers for now Peter Howie Brisland, Australia

Subject: Right on Peter From: Sir Dave To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 17:51:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think you should write a book or something. It would certainly help clear away some people's cobwebs.

Subject: Re: Core Consciousness From: AV To: Jerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 02:56:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My own understanding all those years ago was along the lines of: conciousness exists because of an energy, a primordial potential which allows us to be. We are subject to the effects of conciousness; i.e. our cognitive powers, interpretation of information about our 'outer universe' gathered through the senses; we are also party to to other 'subdivisions' within the realm of consciousness; those dependant on time, i.e memory, projection of past events onto future possibilities, and altered states; trance, dream, drug, mystical etc. where normal waking reality and 'normal' perception of the world around us are replaced with an enhanced view, a higher vision. one of the big 'selling points' of knowledge at the time was the idea that , although we are concioius, we are not directly aware of what is actually making us concious. The example frequently given was that of a movie projector; the light (conciousness) is projected the the film (the mind) to produce the picture we watch (the manifest reality). To be able to turn our awareness away from the 'projection' we need a tool, i.e. knowledge , to re-focus our awareness on the light(source of conciousness itself). This in itself is a very plauysable model. what it doesn't include is the vast moral issue of surrendering power of all one's personal discrimination and rationality to a 'master', through whom, and ONLY through whom the application of those tools, those techniques actually work. if we were having an experience of the source of our conciousness, it was referred to as Guru Maharaji's world, to be with that Lord within. in recent times, the terminology has been supplanted; 'that place', 'that gratitude' etc etc. This would mean that conciousness is not just individual , but universal; that somehow we are all connected in this 'primordial vibration', and it is the master alone, who is at one with that vibration, and thus the only being capable of bringing other beings into attunement with, essentially , his own self. This falls neatly into line with the Christian belief of Christ as the 'Word made flesh', where the 'WORD' is the primordial vibration, source of pure conciousness, and the promise that 'as I AM, all men shall be'...and in Hinduism, Krishna's declaration in the Gita about the devotee who constantly fixes his mind on him eventually comes to (merges with) him. It is my conviction that this is the core beleif of most people who came to knowledge in the early years of M's arrival in the west. It was very clearly put across by some pretty amazing (great souls) who were around at the time. Certainly to me it all made sense at the time.

Subject: Sorry, Peter From: Jerry To: Jerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 18:29:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought I was talking to JohnT there for a moment.

Subject: Help needed with premie music... From: Chuck S. To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 13:39:47 (PDT) Email Address: chuckS1981@bootbox.net Message: My sister and her husband recently have flown out from back east to visit the Bay Area. My sister brought with her a cassete tape of Premie Music that Francesca had given her about 20 years ago, when my sister was visiting me just after I had recieved Knowledge. The tape is a real blast from the past. The tape is titled 'Songs of Love'. Does anyone remember any of these songs: I Will Give Up My Life The Only Treasure In My Life In Your Eyes You Are Real I Need You I Am A Begger Until You Are The Only Thing I See I Depend On You Calling To You I Am Weak Closer To You Simple Song Unless I Know I Love You King Of Hearts Every Little Bit Awaken You Are The One Make Me The Dust Of Your Feet The Sweetest Call My sister never became a premie, but she liked the music quite a lot. I expect many people did, there were a lot of talented premies making music back then. Our local musicians often performed live at Satsang gatherings, and it added 'good vibes', a real element of warmth and community that touched a lot of people. I want to transfer this music onto CD, but have never tried this before. I know how to record from cassette to .wav files on the computer, but the recorder built into win98 has a recording limit of 60 seconds. I have NeroBurning software, including NeroWave Editor, but the .wav editing controls seem as complicated as a rocketship to Mars, and it also has a time limit I can't seem to adjust. Also, the sound quality of the tape has deteriorated, and I want to know if there is anything I can do to enhance it? Do any of you more technical minded folks have some suggestions? Could you point me in the direction of some web based resources that might help a recording newbie like myself approach a task like this? Thank you.

Subject: Chuck, I will own up .. From: Francesca To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 17:53:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... to having been one of the singers and guitarists on that tape and to having penned these devotional nuggets from that bunch: The Only Treasure In Life You Are Real I Need You Until You Are The Only Thing I See Calling To You I Am Weak Closer To You Simple Song Unless I Know I Love You I think that's it. Oh dear, I hope I don't start remembering some of the lyrics. Aaahhhhhhh.... Simple Song was supposedly sung all over the premie globe. It was written in 1973 and got picked up by others when I sang it at international programs and pre-Millenium events (not always from the formal stage). It got sung so much in a town in Ireland that my Irish friend in LA in the mid-70s was surprised to find out I'd written it and not the girl who always sang it at satsang. There was a bunch of musicians in the San Francisco Bay Area (San Francisco, Berkeley, Oakland and Palo Alto) that played, sang and wrote almost all the songs on that tape. There was a premie from Palo Alto that did all the recording. It's a blast from the past to hear that your sister still has it. Yikers. Memorex will bite ya in the posterior when ya least expect it. F

Subject: Yes, the sincerety .. From: Chuck S. To: Francesca Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 11:43:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The sincerety did come through. My sister loved that tape, even though she never became a premie. I found the lyrics of some of the songs too "grovelly" to be completly comfortable with, yet I liked the MUSIC and SINGING, and just accepted the groveliness because, well, they were so SINCERE. I'm not really familiar with what kind of music they are selling now. The last CD of premie music we bought was in '97, I think. It was One Foundation, with songs like: Weeping In My Joy Brand New Love How Can I Ever Stop Lovin' Times Within Your Love Paradise Fire In My Heart The Need For Love You Saved Me Message Of The Heart Loving Is Where We Start The last time I heard the song "Teach Me Devotion", the line that goes "...and make us all one" was changed, to something more PC, like "...and make us all feel love". I think there were a few other changes too. I'll bet the really grovelly songs have all been eliminated. When we were doing the committee meetings, we were discussing how to make video events more appealing. Several of us wanted live music and song. The idea was always scuttled by our Industrial Strength Churchlady, who insisted we could have any RECORDED music we liked, as long as it was from the list of offically approved songs. It was exactly that sort of "dead", controlled vibe we were trying to break up, but it was hopeless. Spontinaity was not what it was all about. You could do anything you wanted... as long as it was what Maharaji wanted. And the Churchladies, who attended all the trainings, knew what that was, and were on the committees to insure that THAT is what happened. Hence the fanatical insistance on "unanimity". Unanimity insured that the committees couldn't move forward unless they eventually gave in to the Churchladies. What happened to the sincerity? It's been replaced with Knowledge Propagation Packets.

Subject: Once again, bait and switch From: Francesca To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 12:33:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chuck, Love that one -- grovelly! PERFECT! That was it. Makes me squirm to think of my own old lyrics. If it weren't for the sincerity, I wouldn't be able to listen to any of it ever again -- mine or anyone else's. It's that same kind of ridiculous desperation that's in regular mainstream love songs -- 'I can't live without your love,' and all that romantic stuff I cannot stand, and don't, for a moment, believe. 'I'm nothing without you' -- I mean, take all the lines from many sappy top 40 hits and American country music and you have the worst bunch of whimpy, whiny expressions as you'd ever want to see. No wonder I went 'punk' when I first moved out of the ashram. But the premie wimpiness was one step up the scale -- sacrosanct, divine wimpdom. Now that you mention it, that was one of my drips -- the music. I used to play music at satsang all the time, for years, and so did many folks I knew in the various communities I lived in. I was music coordiator for a while in LA in the late 70s, making sure that there were musicians available and present for all the larger programs and the small satellite satsangs in ashrams and homes. In 1983 or 1984, before I moved from the Bay Area, the mandate came out about the types of songs that could be played at satsang, and the satsang format. It was a major drip because the grovelly premie music (along with the grovelly premie satsang) was now taboo. And we clearly weren't being trusted, even after being told what the deal was, not to express too much personal devotion. Most of the time, coordinators that had begged us to play their favorite songs now told us to leave the guitar in the case, or conveniently never found the time to call on us for a song. The whole thing was just bait and switch, because all the same devotional, kissy-foot principles were still at the root of it, as well as the mandate to adhere to the latest satsang and PR formats mandated by Rawat through his instructors. As it got more and more phony, nothing but taped music, no more satsang in homes, meeting rooms in neutral places such as banks, folks wearing business dress and suits, to only initiators or certain annointed trainees giving satsang -- well, by some point in 1985 after we moved away, we were 'outta there' as far as the community in our area as well. We'd visit the Bay Area around that time and of course go to satsang with our friends (I mean, premies didn't know how to do anything else on a Saturday night). Usually if it was insider 'premies only' satsang it was some initiator or other explaining the latest attempts at the deception, and the most recent directives from Rawat. At that point, my husband and I walked away after some Sally Reeder pep talk on the latest new reorganization/revisionism and agreed that it was a 'Simon Sez religion.' All this contrivance and instruction just reaffirmed the fact that it was phony, phony, phony. Love, F

Subject: The New Coldness... From: Chuck S. To: Francesca Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 13:58:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's interesting that they didn't just tell you to stop playing the grovelly songs. They stopped live music and individual satsang, because they didn't want them competing with M. All attention was to be focused on Him. This New Coldness pretty much broke up the San Francisco Community, which used to be enourmous. Pat and I attended a video event in an expensive hotel room in the late '80s. Hardly anyone was there, and it was sterile and boring. The community had dissapated along with the warmth. Premies often complain that what is said here is often about the events of the 70's, and that we don't acknowledge the changes and 'improvments' of the 80's and 90's. But that's just not true. Sure the 70's stuff get's discussed, but there are many people who'v posted here who've left in much more recent times. Pat and I only left a year and a half ago, after doing a lot of sycronized participation, which forced us to really look at what we were dealing with. The secrecy and control freakiness. The contrast between what aspirants are told, and what comes later. It made me feel like a liar, I HAD to look at it, and ask questions. All this emphasis on being synconised and controlling everything and forbiding spontinaity. The Atlanta Training Video was the final straw. Talk about COLD. It certainly wasn't anything like what the aspirants were being told. If the so-called changes made in the 80's and 90's had been sincere changes, it may have made a difference, may have added some credibility. But it was just window dressing, it's still the same old devotional kissy-foot bhakti guru worshipping eastern religious cult it's always been. It's just the same old book with a new cover. It's PAINFULLY obvious, to anyone who is willing to look with complete honesty. Fran, calling it a 'Simon Sez Religion' is really just being too darned NICE. -)

Subject: Well, I'm pleased because From: PatC To: Francesca Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 00:48:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......the copy that I had was stolen when I lived in the Haight. I still haven't figured out how a copy got to the ashram in Durban where I played it all the time 76-78. I must say I didn't listen to the words much but to your voice which was just gorgeous.

Subject: Don't know what was around in 76-78 From: Francesca To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 01:23:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The stuff Chuck is referring to was recorded in Berkeley-Oakland-SF in about 1980-81. All I can think is that we were so damned SINCERE that some folks that were not premies were taken by that, and didn't judge how wacky the concepts were that we were espousing. There was an LA Premies tape from the mid-70s with a bunch of different people on it including me and Beckon Gently, a group I was a part of. Anything else with me on it was unofficial and I probably don't have copies myself. And back in the days when it was very hard to duplicate tapes some of my tapes were never returned by people who 'borrowed' them so there ya have it. Have no idea what was on that tape in Durban! But it did give us a connection many years ago. --F :-P

Subject: Re: Help needed with premie music... From: CD To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 14:01:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CD Creator by Roxio is the most popular software out there for recording music onto CDs. CD Creator Chris

Subject: Adaptec = Roxio, Thanks From: Francesca To: CD Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 12:46:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Chris. The Nero Burning Program is supposed to be good as well. Not sure if the Roxio software (or Nero) has recording capabilities as far as creating .wav files from analog files played in real time into the computer -- but I've never checked my CD Creator software. I use it for burning all the time, though. My Turtle Beach sound card (really old hat but still kickin') came with its own proprietary software, but I bought CoolEdit 2000. Some of the Soundblaster cards come with Sound Foundry, and some cards come with Cakewalk. Without using the right software for recording, folks on a MiniDisc bulletin board I used to post on several years ago would complain that the Windoze operating system limits you to 60 seconds of recording. Of course, there may be a setting in the Roxio/Adaptec software that will do the same thing as Sound Foundry, CoolEdit, Cakewalk, Goldwave, etc. Bests, F

Subject: Thanks CD... From: Chuck S. To: CD Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 11:30:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I will check out that link. Regarding this blocking business. I'd like to offer a suggestion. If you unblock Jim from LG, I will unblock Deborah from Symposium. That way, if there is an argument on LG that you don't like, you can tell them to take it over to Symposium, and your forum doesn't have to become a battleground if you don't want it to be. Would that be at all helpful?

Subject: Pat and Chuck - wld u pls block CD? From: Jim To: CD Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 16:06:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As CD's blocked me from LG it seems only fair that he not be able to read the ex sites, don't you think? Thanks, Jim

Subject: he just helped us didnt he? From: oh jim give it a rest To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 04:33:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: honest to god , jim. must you base the entirety of creation out of your ego?? the guy just answered chuck with what he was looking for. he didnt come over to trash you or anyone else. would you quit it already? not every thing is reciprocal tit for tat.

Subject: Who asked you? From: Jim To: oh jim give it a rest Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 09:39:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: honest to god , jim. must you base the entirety of creation out of your ego?? the guy just answered chuck with what he was looking for. he didnt come over to trash you or anyone else. would you quit it already? not every thing is reciprocal tit for tat. --- Listen, coward, you're not the one blocked, are you? So what's it to you?

Subject: I just said that to him on Symp From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 16:18:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just posted to CD on Symp: ''By the way I am thinking of blocking you from F7 until you unblock Jim from LG. I would also ask Chuck to block you from here. I really think Jim is entitled to see the slanderous posts Deb makes about him on LG. So how about it? Unblock Jim and I won't block you.'' Should we wait for his answer or just block him?

Subject: Give him a couple of hours, maybe From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 16:49:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Give him enough time to respond, perhaps. He might as well know why he's blocked if that's how he wants to play it.

Subject: Unrealistic expectations From: Peter Howie To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 04:44:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi all. I've been reflecting on the unrealistic expectations that are being generated at times by myself and others on this forum. That is the hope of an expectation that MJ is likely to do anything different from what he currently is doing now. I've been thinking how hard it is for me to cough up to simle human transgressions such as getting angry or losing my temper with the kids or another person. How hard it is to accept the times when I am simply mean or stingy or completely self absorbed to someone else's detriment. Anyway this is all a pre-amble to suggesting that for MJ to change his tune he would just about have to be a good a premies conceive him to be. He would have to be a very remarkable person. And he isn't that type of remarkable person. He probably will never be that type of remarkable person. What is remarkable is that I might have the hope that he will. I think it is a cruel and slightly masochistic idea to imagine that MJ will change his tune, become humble and apologise. It is about as unreal as imagining that he was god. Perhaps it is a vestigal hope from all those years of projecting good things onto him? Anyway - there is a good story in the front of the dale carnegie book 'How to win frineds and influence people' still the best book on communcation even after 70 years and a lot of competition. Anyway the story goes of a gangster who has just killed a policeman who interrupted his necking with a girlfriend. So there he is holed up, wounded, shots everywhere, hundreds of police - and he write a note in which he says 'I have a heart that wants to help others' or semething equally sentimental. Carnegie's point was that if a hardened criminal and murderer feels they have done no wrong we had all better get out of the blame game. Not that blame doesn't have its place but it is a good point. I've been working with people who function well, influence heaps of other people and who can be as blind and crappy as MJ is. Anyway these other people come around pretty quick. They don't take 30 years. Anyway these are semi formed thoughts and some of you may have some additional ideas. Peter howie Brisbane, Australia

Subject: This is a good thread From: Francesca To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 12:51:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Peter, You've been making some great contributions lately and starting some good threads! I don't always post but I've been reading some of it. Thanks and best wishes, Francesca

Subject: A wonderful point ! From: Loaf To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 11:01:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hello pete You say : for MJ to change his tune he would just about have to be a good a premies conceive him to be which is quite an exceptional point... expectations of M changing are delusional (IMHO) - but there is still immense value in holding a 'mirror up to nature' in order to help people 'de-throne' the internal idolised figure which years of programming and soft focus have implanted. I was thinking the other day about why M shows up for aspirant meetings and K sessions... apart from all the usual implications of needing to be worshipped and even a 'passion for knowledge' (irony intended) - It occurred to me that by implanting his face and presence at every possible opportunity.. he associates himself with tremendous feelings of gratitude which he can milk for the rest of his life. high status event (K session) + warm fuzzy feeling + M's face = gratitude = ££ cash $$ Its a simple and tangible equation. A friend of mine was at a K session with M a couple of years ago. He had no particular feeling about M until the K session.. when he was deeply touched that at one point (during technique no 1) he lowered his arms, and opened his eyes and M offered him some cushions. That simple act, with all the implications of 'master doesnt HAVE to do any of this' somehow made him feel that M was 'alright' and not after his money.... so he gave some.... and then some more... But (sorry to digress.. as soon as I get in the satsang chair I start ranting !)I agree that M cant change. What can happen is that people can re-assess their internal projected M... and actually that is the one that is the issue for me. The antics of PPSR are not of any importance ... save that they are of purient celebrity watching tabloid interest (healthy) and that the de-bunking of my relationship with a perfect but mythical Guru puts my entire relationship with humanity and with myself on a better footing. Heroes are not healthy... not when they stop people seeing the reality and the beauty of the relationships around them. A lot of the emotional displacement and aloof smugness and seperation of premies.. is Not actually down to the technique of K as I originally thought... in fact I think K makes you MORE sensitive..but its because Maharaji works as a phantom lover. By his presence he validates the Premie.. and the higher they build his throne, the more priviledged/blessed the premie can feel... ok so a fat short Indian man in wrong coloured shoes offers you a cushion... big deal ! PWSK, lets start taking maharaji for granted. Lets stop making a fuss of him and let him get on with it. Spreading K is not such a big deal... he just milks the gratitude tooo much because he knows that his future income depends on it. Points make Prizes....

Subject: Re: A wonderful point ! From: blondie To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 15:22:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Pete, I was begining to feel as much a non belonger as an ex as I was a premie.

Subject: Hi blondie From: Marianne To: blondie Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 17:49:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello there blondie. Your post touched me. You are a recent ex, aren't you? I think you'll find that most everyone here went through a lonely time in the weeks, months and possibly more, after leaving the cult behind. The importance of the forum (and of all of the Journeys posted on EPO) is to show that there are many ranges of experience and reaction to both involvement in the cult and and the process of extricating ourselves from it. Keep reading and you will find exes whose experiences are similar to your own. I hope you've found some exes near you or through email who can lend an understanding ear when you need it. A belated welcome to you. Look forward to more of your contributions. Marianne

Subject: Say, Peter... From: gerry To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 11:43:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Could you take a look at this link and tell me if you recognize any of these people as premies? Thanks. Is there a premie in the house? www.mbcconsultancy.com.au/who.htm

Subject: Re: Say, Peter... From: Livia To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 14:57:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Has this link been shown on F7 before? Because I've definitely seen it before, just a few weeks ago, but can't remember if it was here or on LG. If it was posted as a link on LG that pretty much tells you what you need to know. Livia

Subject: Re: Say, Peter... From: Australian Securities Commision To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 14:16:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Extracted from ASIC's database at 07:08:55 on 10/06/2002 Name M'S BUSINESS CONSULTANCY PTY LTD ACN 071 972 239 ABN 66 071 972 239 Type Australian Proprietary Company, Limited By Shares Registration Date 28/11/1995 Status Registered Locality of Registered Office South Melbourne VIC 3205 Jurisdiction Australian Securities & Investments Commission These are the documents most recently received by ASIC from this organisation. Page numbers are shown if processing is complete and the document is available for purchase. Received Number Pages Description 20/05/2002 017526707 42 309A Notification of Details of a Charge 04/02/2002 07197223L 3 316L (AR 2001) Annual Return - Proprietary Company 30/01/2001 07197223K 3 316L (AR 2000) Annual Return - Proprietary Company

Subject: Re: Say, Peter... From: Peter Howie To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 16:24:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thety don't ring any bells but I get why you are asking. Cheers Peter

Subject: Re: Say, Peter... From: Pemie Spotter To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 12:51:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All premies, although I dont know about Ray Cooper . Not heard of him.

Subject: So which one is Catweasel From: PatC To: Pemie Spotter Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 12:59:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Catweasel's Internet Protocol number traces directly to that website. Either he uses a computer there to post here or he uses their business internet service provider.

Subject: Re: So which one is Catweasel From: SNEAK To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 07:39:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: JEREMY COLLIER (JEZ). Ex uk premie. From the North of England now resident in Australia. Involved in Security since the mid to late seventies. Not too bright , rather thick skinned. Blindly loyal as are many of the security boys. Down to earth 'unspiritual type' , into sports more than any yogi antics. A real gameplayer.

Subject: Re: So which one is Catweasel From: SNOOK To: SNEAK Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 22:39:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: TONY RELLIAM (TON') Ex UK premie. Billiards enthusiast. Cheeky sense of humor and ultra competitive. Thinks (knows)he's a good looking chap. Favours redheads and British ale. Ribald humour and Italian food. Involved in boating and some sort of motor design. A real knave.

Subject: Is Jez into horse-racing? [nt] From: PatC To: SNEAK Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 09:54:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yes Patrick -tennis too From: Sneak To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 11:22:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Catweasel From: Peter Howie To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 16:49:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Most interesting. I had another further look at the whole site. I don't recognise anyone but then again last time I went near the joint I hardly recognised anyone - and some of them recognised me. This link to CW is most delightful and I wait with biated breath. Boy, what a cheesy name. Great if you can get away with it. Cheers and I'm off to watch Spider Man at the Golden Wing section of the movie theatre - you know - recliner chairs, served food at pre-determined time etc. I'll look in when I get back. Peter Howie

Subject: Golden Wing section? From: PatC To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 00:53:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How much does the Golden Wing section of the movie theatre cost? It sounds great but do they still play the sound as loud as they play it in the scum of the earth section?

Subject: Re: Golden Wing section? From: Peter Howie To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 04:26:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It costs $25 on weekends but you can get in on a standbye cost of $14 weekdays mostly mornings. They have two cinemas - one with 24 seats the other with 30. Only the latest movies. Sound is OK - I couldn't tell that it was too loud. The movie was great and I am such a sentimental clod that I cried quite a few times. They are also licensed. Hot food as well. I left with a very distended stomach. I also went on my own which is wonderfully decadent. My partner and I stopped going there because we ate so much and it costs $7 at our local - but such decadence. Ahhhhhhh! Cheers Peter

Subject: Re: So which one is Catweasel From: Pemie Spotter To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 15:03:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Must be the business owner wouldn't you say.

Subject: Re: So which one is Catweasel From: PS To: Pemie Spotter Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 15:22:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh and by the way don’t be fooled by that little ol’ web site, the folks there are all either commission only sales people or have a full time job and would not have done one hours worth of true consulting in their life. A bit of chest beating I’m afraid. But you have found the home of the cat and his & her friends.

Subject: Who's the boss? From: PatC To: PS Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 16:14:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Which one of those guys owns the business?

Subject: Re: Who's the boss? From: PPS To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 16:39:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Michael and Marna own it/run it.

Subject: Michael Nelthorpe? From: PatC To: PPS Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 00:56:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Others have said that CW is was Michael. Does CW's peculiar online persona match at all? Poor Pussy. It was only a matter of time before his cover was blown.

Subject: Re: Michael Nelthorpe? From: Ring In To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 01:11:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Michael has a history with the gee-gees. So with all the tipping CW's been indulging in it seems probable he's a contender. In fact even money on Michael.

Subject: On Second Thoughts....... From: Ring In To: Ring In Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 01:21:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....CW seems to me to be an amalgammation of various people. Either he's got people feeding him information or they're taking it in turns to post.

Subject: CW an amalgam of people From: PatC To: Ring In Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 10:00:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Recently CW has been fairly consistent but for the longest time it was like talking to Jekyll and Hyde - you never knew exactly which face he would show - nice or nasty. Also the actual writing styles would change drastically from boorish and full of typos to sane and legible within minutes. I always wondered if it was more than one premie. Seems like MBC may have a few Lone Ranger PWKs.

Subject: Re: CW an amalgam of people From: Peter Howie To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 13:51:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi there, I concluded that CW had a mental illness. His ealier posts - year or three ago - really indicated some interesting pathology - what I don't know. Another option was alcohol but that idea wasn't mine. I finally concluded like you and many others here that we were all fine sport for him. Now and again I could enter his strange world - his openness to salam and a few other seriously unbalanced people was quite touching. His writings on LG are positively positive compared to a few years ago. The idea of a pastiche is an interesting one - I'm not convinvec but it is very decent hypothesis. My interest waned and now I figure he will be revealed in the fullness of time. Unfortunately the picture is not nearly clear enough. I'm suspicious from it. Bugger! Now my curiosity is somwhat up again. Peter

Subject: CW claimed to know you, Peter From: PatC To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 15:52:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Didn't he seem to know a lot of details about your participation in some service project? Can you recall if Michael or Jeremy were involved. When I first encountered CW, he said he was a Brit living in Oz and was extremely nasty and vicious to me. Later he denied having said he was a Brit and his viciousness was not quite so psycho. It will all be revealed in the fullness of time. Hey, these guys are Hindus. Don't they believe in karma?

Subject: Re: CW did know me From: Peter Howie To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 16:23:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep he did know me. The dilemma from my point of view was that while he knew about Brisbane and a bizarre company set up to deal with too many premies that came to fast track MJ's palace(company called Cityscape) where we happily worked in conditions at times not unlike what happened at DECA, anyway while he knew about that he didn't know about my Sydney and early canberra life. Anyway he knew me here in Brisbane. He knew the others that worked with me. He seemed to live in the ashram yet at the same time not to live in the ashram. This happened because there were pseudo ashrams and there where ashrams where non-ashram premies lived due to service requirements. He knew me better than I knew him because ashram premies had a higher community profile - gave satsang more often, ponced around more often, acted like slaves more aften, ignored or seemed one up to community premies more often. Anyway the photo has stimulated my memories but I can't really nail it down. I've entered a more flexible state from seeing them. RE: Jerry or Michael: I can't recall who was whom. I've been stimulated by the name Michael and will let my unconscious chew on it for a while. If it is who I'm stimulated to consider it is then I'm no better off. All I can remember is that that person strongly resisted being dominated by anyone even MJ. He was quite a scary dude to a humble, celibate, meditating premie. But we also had a positive relationship which comes through at certain times in his posts to me. Cheers Peter

Subject: they're an ugly bunch From: janet To: Ring In Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 04:44:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm sorry, but the website is ugly, they're ugly, and cat's long history of wasting our time and attention on his superfluous crap is ugly. all in all: ugly== i wouldnt consult these people as to whether there was toilet paper stuck on the bottom of my shoe!

Subject: Finally, something we agree on. :C) [nt] From: PatC To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 15:55:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The unborn creed of Maharajism From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 07:58:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dunno about anyone else but I am glad that I find the world a sane, happy place, that I was born, I live in lightness and don't have tears running down my cheeks. It seems that some premies feel the need to feel the opposite. I guess this is prompted by Maharaji constantly prattling on about thirst, hunger, the evils of the mind, maya and him being the 'unique' solution to these ailments. Thanks for the advice Maharaji - I walked! Found on ELK Diana Sajovec: Longing birth From Tolmin, Slovenia Oh my wellspring, you're giving me my love, my dearest, my beloved. When day after day, I'm surrounded, with this crazy sad world, then my longing birth, to the light in my darkness, to the voice in my silence, shines and whispers to me. Oh thank you, for being with me, for your guiding light, for your caressing whisper, and for my grateful tear, which slides down my cheek. Oh how could I rejoice, within myself, without you?

Subject: Re: The unborn creed of Maharajism From: Cynthia To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 10:27:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, Oh how could I rejoice, within myself, without you? I galls me that with all the revisionism that's gone on and Maharji's denial of ever saying, implying, etc., that he was the living lord of the universe and greater than GOD, that ELK publishes this stuff which confirms, for me, anyway, that some premies do in fact believe in Prem Rawat's divinity. They can't see the trap but it's clearly there right in those few words. Cynthia

Subject: The filter of maharajism From: la-ex To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 07:29:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK, I know he's the FILAMENT these days, but he also used to talk about the 'filter', remember....some people strain out all the good, and see only the bad, some people strain out the bad, and see only the good....something about coffee, something about tea, I don't know, how did we ever believe that drivel and think it was wise?...beats me...I guess what baffles me even more is how any middle aged person could ever go and hear any of that stuff today and get anything out of it, but I'm digressing here... What's interesting to me about these ELK droppings, is that if outrageous stuff is said about m in a positive way (even to the point of proclaiming him LORD, which he denies, but then doesn't deny, but then does....go figure...)it's included and they will say 'that's just how this particular person feels about m'.....we're just posting what one particular person happens to feel about m.... However, if anyone were to put anything negative about m,or contradictory, and could even prove it by referring to his own quotes, do you think it would ever make it to ELK? Funny how the FILTER works, isn't it? Maybe he should call himself the FILTERMENT from now on...

Subject: Revising the past From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 07:00:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder how pwks currently feel about their heartfelt contributions being used to restore archive material that largely shows Maharaji proclaiming himself to be The Lord Incarnate or better? Surely they must know that there is an iceball in hell's chance of them ever seeing this stuff again. Unless in the revisionist style of 'Passages'. Perhaps current followers believe they are doing Service for future historians in understanding late twenty/early 21st century bankrupt belief systems? Much like the discovery of the Nag Hammadi scriptures related to Gnosticism. Lets see - perhaps the 'Prem Rawat archives of Maharajism'. Just wondering Warmly, Thorin Dead, never to be seen again scrolls www.visionsinternational.org/archive.html

Subject: Re: Revising the past From: Bolly Shri To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 13:21:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Old Lordy may be missing a trick here. As he gazes past the inner circle of followers he will see that retro is highly marketable. My teenage daughter and her cohorts wear the clothes, listen to the music etc of the era m first graced us with his presence. They have more drugs, drink etc. so it might take a while before they start looking on Indian mysticism as a seam worth mining. They won't want a 'self knowledge tutor' in a corporate package. They'll be looking for the technicolor version with dancing gods in satins and silks. So before he shoves all that memorabilia into the outer reaches of room 101 the marketing men should do a little research. LOL Bolly

Subject: restoration has begun... From: Even though To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 07:39:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...in the last year 22 original masters (including some events and two interviews from 1971) had already deteriorated and are lost forever. HHMMMMMM!! Which interviews, I wonder. Could it be the ones where Prem Rawat discusses the fact that he is greater than god? or the one where he says that he is the incarnation of God? LLLLOOOOOOOSSSSSSEEER We're not buyin' that crap, asshole

Subject: Re: Revising the past From: PatD To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 17:09:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I notice that they're heartbroken over the loss to natural causes of a film made in 1971. That's got to be the one featuring the 'Rainbow Gypsies',a hippie dance troupe caught in true underground movie style with their bollocks hanging out of their loin cloths,gyrating at the feet of the 13yr old incarnation. You ever see that one Thorin? I think it might've been pulled in '73/4.

Subject: Yo England !!!!!!!!! From: Jeff Hirst To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 06:45:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We did it again......

Subject: Re: Yo England !!!!!!!!! From: Ian To: Jeff Hirst Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 11:16:07 (PDT) Email Address: ian.johnson33@ntlworld.com Message: yea who's the perfect master now???

Subject: We kissed his foot better! From: Nige'n'Moley To: Ian Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 16:00:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (Beckham's, of course..)

Subject: Pam Payroll From: Vicki To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 05:45:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A lot has been mentioned about PAM's on the payroll. Does anyone know how much money they make?

Subject: Malibu's Rich PAM's From: Inside Edition To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 19:58:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Many of the hard-core Malibu PAM's are wealthy (Gallwey, the Pascotto brothers). It was reported here that Bonthous bought Eddie Van Halen's multimillion dollar home right down the hill from the Malibu divine residence. The PAM's probably pay him, out of extreme gratitude, of course!

Subject: Another ace, IE From: PatC To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 01:38:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The only PAMs left are the big donors. The salarymen lifers like Whittaker and Woods aren't really PAMs anymore but they live in hope that one day they will be re-admitted to the Inner Circle of the Malibu Mob.

Subject: Re: Pam Payroll From: Carolina R To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 10:00:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It wasn't much for undrlings. I remember my dad leaving the DECCA projcet and moving us becuase we didn't have enought to live on.

Subject: A friend of mine worked for M From: Tom To: Vicki Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 10:03:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He worked on the yacht, was paid a straight fee through one of the corporations and was given a 1099 at years end to deal with taxes, social security and other bennies on his own. He felt privledged just to be able to clean the master's toilet. He lives in S. Fla. now, I will try to ring him sometime.

Subject: Re: A friend of mine worked for M From: gerry To: Tom Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 11:52:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Tom, Always great to have new posters showing up! So when did you receive the special 'K' ? Been 'out' long? Give us the riff, you know, the regular chatty stuff we're always eager to hear about new folks and their trip with Rawat. So welcome, and feel ree to introduce yourself. It's only good manners and helps build credibility, too. :)

Subject: Paltr tablescraps from the lord's table From: la-ex To: Vicki Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 07:53:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: About 4 or 5 years ago a semi-PAM (pre-pam, partly-pam,semi-pam,...) told my friend that m had told a small group of pople that did the 'nuts and bolts' work of the organization (he was a bookkeeper) that if they stayed with him for the long haul, he would eventually give them a free place to live at amaroo, and a small stipend to live on... My friend's impression was that it was extremely meager, subsistance level of wages, and proably a small apartment in some condo to be built at the amaroo site, which I have been told, is pretty uninhabitable for much of the year....quite a reward for serving paypal your entire life.... Another friend who I regard as one of the most dysfunctional monks I have ever met, described the people at ev and visions in LA as people who work literally all the time (24/7, besides eating and sleeping) and get paid either nothing, or close to minimum wage...even HE couldn't understand them, and said they were for the most part, a sorry bunch of people who looked completely lost without the next 'word from the master'.....I always thought of my friend in that way, and to here her talk about the other premies, was mind-boggling to me.. But there is a contingent of people who literally do not know what to do with themselves if they are not plugged into m....they generally need to live near one of his residences, and feel completely lost without him....i's so sad, pathetic and wierd when you see or talk to them sometimes... What's also so reveaing is the way that m gets certain people to continue to serve him.... He verbally promises them this retirement income, but it was not in writng....think about it....they will have to continualy work for him until HE decides they can retire....if they ever want to do anything else with their life, he can say that they left him not the other way around, and then deny them any income...so, basically, they are bound to him and dependent upon him, even physically,until the day they die...if they ever leave, the deal is off, and if they stay, they will work until they drop, and live in some sort of housing provided (and potentially taken away) by m..... As usual, m holds all the cards, and everything favors him, at the devotees expense... I sometimes wonder how many cult apologists like Erica and David Anderson would want to live this way.... I know one instuctor, Julio Castro, who told m to his face that he did not want to live at m's 'retirement village' in amaroo....h said that m looked hurt when h told him that, but Julio said that he's a city type guy, and didn't see much to do in the outback with the kangaroos and wallabees....

Subject: do not receive... From: Those in his immediate employ To: Vicki Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 07:45:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the fair amount that they could get if they were in the public sector, such as ones valet (butler-or buttler in this case), co-pilot, yacht captain and crews, engineers, chauffers. But as someone says below: they get to pranam (kiss ass) and be in the presence of the Perfect Master. What else could one ask for? Oh, yeah, right, sorry, forgot about paying rent and buying food.

Subject: Re: Pam Payroll From: Cynthia To: Vicki Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 07:36:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Vicki, Payroll for PAMs? I don't have a clue, but based on my experience, it can't be very much.:)

Subject: Re: Pam Payroll From: Bolly Shri To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 07:24:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But they get all the nectar they can drink and plenty of yesterdays prasad. LOL Bolly

Subject: Excuse me Tonette From: Beragon Ki Jai To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 21:04:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just read the off screen threads and noticed that you had replied to me.Yes that was the Neveille that I was enquiring about.I thought as Neville is not a very common name that it may have been him. Cheers BKJ

Subject: Neville, the one I think you are asking about.... From: Tonette To: Beragon Ki Jai Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 22:05:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Neville I was referring to has just started a thread dated 6/6 with the subject line titled, 'How to embarrass God.' You can give him a greeting there, see if he remembers you, what not. Neville is an unusual name but I get the impression there are two here. Regards, Tonette

Subject: Thanks tonette (nt)... From: Beragon Ki Jai To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 17:00:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (nt)

Subject: Well, I for one, am totally outraged! From: gErRy To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 12:10:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And sorta flattered, I guess. For the past three weeks, by the Grace, I've been the lucky recipient of multiple telephone harassment calls most every weekday, usually during the daytime. What the heck, maybe Liz Walker is still angry about my not showing up at the eight grade make-out party after she had bicycled all the way from Slate Hill Road. My parents wouldn't let me attend the party that night, I mighta got a hard on or something... Anyway, do you think it's the CULT? Maybe it's THE GOVERNMENT !!! After all, I did recently read the Federalist Papers online and I do read Rense.com from time to time. Am I getting paranoid here? The premies think I am over at LifesGrate, well, at least that shining beacon of integrity Carlos, WHOM I SUSPECT GAVE THE CULT MY TELEPHONE NUMBER, thinks I'm paranoid. Oh forget it. I'll just call Dr Laura...

Subject: Re: Well, I for one, am totally outraged! From: Carolina R To: gErRy Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 08:55:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry, Do you have *57. Oh, seems to me there's an add on the TV for a device that zaps telemaketing & harasssing phone calls. You can bye it at Radio Shack. CR

Subject: no caller ID? From: janet To: gErRy Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 04:06:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: if you can hang in ther till january, there's a new law going into effect that you can use to get your name blocked from all telemarketers and autocallers. it's already in effect in the midwest and a full 90% of the populace put their name on the list in the attorney general's office, not to be harassed. the fines for breaking it are steep. dont you have an answering machine that can screen your calls with some truly obnoxious message to deter all but the most earnest callers who can wait thru it to touch base with the real you? that's what i do, and i have hella fun doing it, too. you could also get a second distinctive ring number on the same line, and only answer the distinctive ring.

Subject: It might be a pissed off telemarketer.. From: Tonette To: gErRy Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 02:40:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A pissed off telemarketer? I doubt it. Someone(s) who have gotten their nose out of joint, that's for sure. It's alot of bother to harrass to the level you are being targeted. Have you dissed any women lately? Befriended any un-balanced people, persons? Are you posing a threat to a cult? Yes, to both of the previous questions. I've seen many people come thru this forum and it's related links. In fact, there are some people who post here currently, a few and in recent times past, who are 'not quite right.' Get my drift? It could be practically anyone! The real question is, do you feel threatened? Face it Gerry, you are front and center, hit me with your best shot, FA of a very destructive, disruptive, public forum which operates daily to dismantle the infrastructure of a multi-million dollar a year cult. Cult and truth do not mix. How dare you facilitate an avenue in which the truth is told. You are directly identifiable as someone who is diminishing the cash flow! Not only to Maharaji but to all those who are on board with him. Translate that to long term PAMs. Maharaji's periphery is composed of individuals who really have given their all. In fact, they have nothing else. The zealots, fanatics, the truly surrendered. They have nothing to lose because they gave it away a long time ago to the Master. You, however are threatening their very survival, livelihood. The cash stops, Maharaji retires. He's already hinted at this scenario. His Pams, if they don't keep his trip going, don't produce the results he demands, are going to have to look for different jobs. Can you imagine them looking for jobs with the skills and education they acquired while working for EV? EV doesn't even exist anymore! Gonna list M as your employer and list him as a referance? And if you did, who's going to answer the phone? Send back the evaluation? Huh? I really don't think Carlos is responsible. I make that assumption from how he has posted here. I think it may be someone(s) far more malicious. Call me paranoid then. Whatever. Someone who is willing to go to alot of trouble. Alot! I think you should change your number after you involve the police and phone company. Please take care, I appreciate greatly what you do as FA. Now I have a different angle, it's not only what you do, it's a bit of a risk. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: you lied to me you find it hard to From: Carlos-Gerry, I understand that since To: gErRy Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 14:40:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: trust me,but I did NOT give your # to anyone.

Subject: OH, OK for chrissake From: gerry To: Carlos-Gerry, I understand that since Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 14:47:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Let me think....my big lie... I KNOW WHAT IT WAS!!! THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS SANTA CLAUS !!! SORRY TO BREAK YOU THE NEWS... ("break you the news," is that dutchy or what?) ON TO THE NEXT SUSPECT... CD!!! I gave CD my telephone number, BUT, BUT, NO SAY IT AIN'T SO, I CAN'T BELIEVE IT, DID, DID, DID DID CD GIVE THE CULT MY TELEPHONE NUMBER? christ, that's dutchy too. How about "did CD give my telephone number to the cult?" Oh yes, better. --Gerry the "throw me over the fence the wire cutters...

Subject: Extra! Chris Dickey Confesses From: gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 15:16:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: his secret admiration for Jim's arguing style. It's all in a secret undisclosed email I won't share with anyone. He also claims he would never give out my telephone number. OKee Dokee WE'RE BACK TO CARLOS THEN!!! CD is off the hook. Until the FBI report comes in, that is.

Subject: Re: Extra! Chris Dickey Confesses From: Gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 23:39:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Easter Bunny told me he's your phone stalker! But I'm not sure if an afadavit about a fairy tale critter would help ypu. What do you think?

Subject: naive, gerry. Your last name has been From: Carlos-For a conspiracy fan, you're sure To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 15:18:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: in lots of posts. The state, and the part of the state, that you live in has, too. Plus you've given your # to a bunch of exes, each oif whom could have pasesed it on. Yet you seem to feel only a premie you gave it too could You and PatC, and maybe with the helpof others, do a pretty good job adminestering this site. But you, personally, aren't the brightest light bulb in the candellabra, are you?

Subject: Listen, shit-for -brains From: gerry To: Carlos-For a conspiracy fan, you're sure Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 15:26:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There are three ex-premies who have my telephone number which is UNLISTED AND NOT GIVEN OUT BY THE TELEPHONE COMPANY IN ANY INSTANCE I trust the exes implicitly but you and your kind are the worst sort of trailer trash spiritual parasites on the face of the planet. And I'm a lot fuckin' smarter than you are pal, but that's not sayin' much, is it? Christ, look at the mess you posted. You sound--and look--some someone who's DD. Get lost before I boot your sorry ass outta here.

Subject: Re: Listen, shit-for -brains From: DD To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 20:33:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There are three ex-premies who have my telephone number which is UNLISTED AND NOT GIVEN OUT BY THE TELEPHONE COMPANY IN ANY INSTANCE I trust the exes implicitly but you and your kind are the worst sort of trailer trash spiritual parasites on the face of the planet. And I'm a lot fuckin' smarter than you are pal, but that's not sayin' much, is it? Christ, look at the mess you posted. You sound--and look--some someone who's DD. Get lost before I boot your sorry ass outta here. --- GeRrY, I hope this DD you are referring to isn't me, Deputy Dog. I have better things to do than making crank calls. My sermons are annoying enough. =)

Subject: Oh BTW, Dog, did you call Gerry a troll? From: PatC To: DD Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 10:31:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On LG you said that Gerry was an F7 troll and should go back to his kennel. That was so hilarious since you were talking on LG where the majority of posters are anonymous trolls.

Subject: A troll? Gerry can post wherever he wants! From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 13:00:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On LG you said that Gerry was an F7 troll and should go back to his kennel. That was so hilarious since you were talking on LG where the majority of posters are anonymous trolls. --- PatC, I think I would have recalled that. You find that post. Not my style at all.

Subject: Dog calls Gerry a troll on LG From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 13:11:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog Recipient: gerry Subject: Personally I think you are a classic F7 TROLL Message: who should fuck off back to the kennel Dog calls Gerry a troll on LG www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&id=10599.55843287149

Subject: Re: Dog calls Gerry a troll on LG From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 13:35:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog Recipient: gerry Subject: Personally I think you are a classic F7 TROLL Message: who should fuck off back to the kennel --- PatC, First of all I have never referred to my self as 'Dog.' I have used Deputy Dog and Dep but never Dog. Second of all, compare the browser of the LG message with the browser of this message. I ahve posted the LG browser below. They are different. Third I neither use nor have I ever used a Mac. Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.14; Mac_PowerPC)

Subject: It's tough being anonymous, Dep. From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 13:38:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Other people can use your handle and it forces you to defend yourself.

Subject: Re: It's tough being anonymous, Dep. From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 07:21:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Other people can use your handle and it forces you to defend yourself. --- PatC, Other people could use your handle too Pat. All in all I was taken aback by your accusation, as I have always felt a connection with Gerry, despite all his macho posturing. There is only one thing I want to say to you Pat, '. . . in quietness and in confidence shall be our strength.' I feel a sermon coming on . . . somebody stop me please! =)

Subject: It's not Deputy Dog From: gerry To: DD Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 07:34:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: DEp, In PC circles here in the states, 'DD' means developmentally disabled, which we used to call 'retarded.' But if the shoe fits... :)

Subject: What power and morality! [nt] From: Carlos-Threats've never impessed me. To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 15:36:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: they're called insults--sheesh what a dufus [nt] From: gerry To: Carlos-Threats've never impessed me. Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 15:46:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Carlos, piss off... [nt] From: Cynthia To: Carlos-For a conspiracy fan, you're sure Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 15:22:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I have one word for this From: Richard To: gErRy Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 12:36:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: F*****G SCHMUCKS! OK, it was 2 words so sue me. Assuming it's not an over-amped aluminum siding salesman, it sure is bizarre what zealots will do in the name of their religion. The power of zealotry is seductive to the weakminded. Can you say "arrested development"? I've made my share of prank calls but I was like 10 years old at the time. Richard, who doesn't have Prince Albert in the can but would let him out if he did.

Subject: i've never heard you talk dirty b4.. From: janet To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 04:13:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: oo richard...It's quite a turn-on! wow. i dont think ive ever seen you display your cojones like this before. I'm getting warm all over! it's really true--you CAN be sexy after 50. there's hope for me yet! ooo do it some more. i love it when we shatter our nicey nicey cult conditioning. it's so liberating.

Subject: Re: i've never heard you talk dirty b4.. From: Richard To: janet Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 10:17:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh Janet you are just too funny. How would you feel if I used the 'C' word? Here goes . . . CULT! Damn, I feel great! How does that make you feel? ;) Richard, who for a long time found it difficult to use the 'C' word because I didn't want to believe I was in a cult

Subject: Re: i've never heard you talk dirty b4.. From: janet To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 13:32:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AND: it's a four letter word, too. talk dirty to me, richard?... say all those forbidden four letter words. prem is a four letter word. so is feet cash mind scam agya arti guru holy name is 2 four letter words elan PPSR and the beat goes on...

Subject: Re:More 4 letter words From: Richard To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 20:08:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK, you're really gonna get it now. Lila TPRF Prem Maha RuGu And now some 5 letter words: Grace Bliss Satgu Rawat

Subject: it's called Bolloxology NT From: Maureen Lipman To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 01:09:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Love your posts, G+R From: Tim G To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 14:02:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But what the fuck are you talking about? Been reading Raymond Chandler recently and it's increased my appreciation of the language...you guys seem to have your own too. Keep it coming . I'm all ears Yours quizzically Tim

Subject: Love your posts, G+R From: Tim G To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 14:02:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But what the fuck are you talking about? Been reading Raymond Chandler recently and it's increased my appreciation of the language...you guys seem to have your own too. Keep it coming . I'm all ears Yours quizzically Tim

Subject: I'll try to explain, Tim From: Richard To: Tim G Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 14:19:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tim, Gerry has been getting numerous calls from parties unknown. He thinks they are from PWKs hassling him because of his high profile as an EX. My comment about aluminum siding salesmen refers to those generic annoying unsolicited sales call - typically at dinner time here in the colonies. These days it's usually a hot deal on long distance phone service. Septic tank miracle cures are also popular in rural areas like where I live. 'Do you have Prince Albert in the can?' is an example of a prank phone question to a store clerk. Prince Albert is a type of tobacco that comes in a can. If the store clerk says 'Yes, we have Prince Albert in a can.', the prankster says 'Well, you better let him out before he suffocates.' 'Is your refrigerator running?' is the question a young prank caller might ask the unsuspecting randomly dialed person who picks up the phone. When they say 'Yes' the prankster says 'Well, better catch it before it runs away!' Very funny if you are a pre-pubescent boy with time to burn. So I was equating the mentality of a childish prank caller to the mentalality of the PWK zealot harassing Gerry (assuming it is a PWK that is hassling him.) Then Gerry related a true story about someone from Sears trying to sell him aluminum siding and Gerry goofing on him by asking for purple that certainly (hopefully) doesn't exist. Hey, maybe the PWKs are right, I really should get a life. Richard, who answered a prank collect call from Hardwar in 1972

Subject: Is your refrigerator running? From: gerry To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 12:46:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the the email, Richard. Like I said, publicizing this is my best defense for now. Sears did call the other day trying to sell me siding. When they asked what kind of siding I have now I told them 'purple.' It went down hill from there and the poor thing finally hung up after telling me I could probably get 'purple' at any Sears retail outlet. You don't think...naw, Sears wouldn't go to all the trouble these guys obviously have just over purple, would they?

Subject: Re: Is your refrigerator running? From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 13:18:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry, This has been going on for quite some time now. Of course I think it's someone from the cult. Who else would bother? I think it's disgusting. Have you considered changing your phone number--if you've already reported this harrassment they'll change it for free. That's what I've been told by my phone company. I know it's a hassle but at least the calls would stop. Purple...I love it! Cynth

Subject: right, that a premie is bugging gerry. From: Carlos-Unfortunately Cynthia is probably To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 14:48:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Both Sir D and I have suggested to him that he work with the cops and his phone company in trapping the jerk.

Subject: You're a hypocrite, Carlos... From: Cynthia To: Carlos-Unfortunately Cynthia is probably Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 15:16:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why are you here, anyway? When I read your posts on LG you talk about our 'pathology' as if we are the ones stuck in a cult. You contradict yourself often. You are really full of shit. Furthermore, tell your new GuruDeb that she speaks in absolutes. She globalizes everything she says. That's a mental defect. Like ''nobody has any trust in them (meaning the ex-premies) anymore.'' She constantly does this as if it is a given that when she thinks something it logically (in her mind) follows that everyone thinks the same thing. Talk about pathological. You're a guru worshipper. Hit the road, Bubba. Cynthia, who is sick of you and all the premies who can't find enough in goomraji's meditation so they are still searching in other cults. If Prem Pay Pal is the end of the search, why are premies on LG looking to improve the techinques of knowledge given by the one and only Prem Pal Rawat?

Subject: Re: You're a hypocrite, Carlos... From: Carlos To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 15:31:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are entitled to your opinion. And I think that you did bust me on my 'pathology' crack. If I offended you, or any other ex, my apology. It was wrong of me to join Deb in her satirical attack on you guys. But hypocrisy? I've jumped premies who crossed the line. I've busted myself, and apologized, when I crossed the line> Can you say that? Can anyex who hasn't become an ex ex, other than Brian & Katie? What makes it morally OK for you to indulge in actions you say are morally wrong for others to act out?

Subject: Satire, Carlos? From: Cynthia To: Carlos Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 17:01:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Carlos, Let's be clear about this. What Deborah says on LG is not satire. She doesn't know how to write satire, although she thinks she does. Deborah's good at private jokes but her attempts at satire are laughable. What Deborah does is manipulate people, including premies. Very transparent machinations on her part. And Carlos? You can't see what I am doing. You can't even read what I write because your thinking is blurred by the cult. You can't see that, but it's true. What I write here is about being spiritually abused by Prem Pal Rawat. And contrary to Deborah's and other LG premies belief, I don't live as a victim. Deborah thinks she has some intellectual tools which give her special abilities. She calls all of the ex-premies every sort of name and refers to us in a strange and illogical way. Btw, how do you know who is posting there? It's become quite weird, with some people using many aliases. Anyway, don't judge my moral fiber and I'll leave you alone, too.

Subject: Re: Satire, Carlos? From: Carlos To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 21:24:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll happily agree to a truce, Cynthia. You have a namesake who I happen to love, my 1st wife's oldest daughter. So it feels wierd to have a 'Cynthia' pissed off at me for stuff she'd never get into. And I meant my apology; for someone to get into slinging barbs at people, whatever the motive, as I did, who talks about trying to realize and revere God in all beings, as I do, is wrong. And I cop to that.

Subject: To Carlos... From: Cynthia To: Carlos Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 07:25:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Carolos, I admit I was too quick to lash out at you and for that I do apologize. Yet I have a difficult time believing your sincerity when I read the things you write and the company you keep on LG. I don't live in a place where I ever see any premies. I spent so little time in the Vermont communities that I probably wouldn't remember more than two and we never really became friends, although they are wonderful folks. My experience back in 1997 with the premies in Vermont and at programs I attended in Boston was that everyone was flat, uninspired, and unfriendly. I don't think that the presence on LG represents every premie, however LG is representing premies in general by virtue of being a premie forum. So it doesn't look too great for premies in general based on the LG crowd. Hell, I have a sister who is a premie although she isn't involved with Rawat at all. We agree not to discuss the cult because our relationship as sisters and friends is much more important to us than Prem Rawat. And the way the premies on LG talk to and about exes with such a hate it does reflect badly on the whole premie population, however small that has become in the past few years. I like to post on Symposium on occasion. Every time I post there Roupell stalks me and makes nasty remarks, insulting my intelligence and whatever filth is flowing through his addled brain at the moment he reads one of my posts. Roupell has addmitted on Symposium that he never misses one of my posts; he uses me as an opportunity for participation I think, through his hit and run crap which is most definitely addressed to me. So it's the likes of the 'Doc,' Catweasel, Mili, and now Deborah (who is now equipped with some special intellectual tools) who anger me a lot. Why do I read LG? I don't trust Deborah (I never did) and find it interesting (and angering) to watch her spin her current mindset about ex-premies being a cult who she claims are practicing thought reform. She now speaks with so much ''authority'' about the practice of knowledge it's laughable. She also demands that everyone defer to her. I have yet to read one confrontational post to her by a premie. Why? My guess is that they've witnessed her ability to rip people apart with her angry words. I'm not out to convert and deprogram premies, Carlos. I'm only here to read and help folks out if appropriate. I haven't even been posting much here because it's spring here and I'd rather take advantage of the beauty of my surroundings outside (spring and summers are quite short). I was joking with my husband on the first day of spring. I said ''Time to start getting our winter wood supply.'' It's pretty accurate.:) I digress. If I ever posted one thing on LG I know I would be attacked--just for posting there--so I resented your showing up here suddenly. Anyway, just watch out for Deborah. When I read her post saying that those of us who received knowledge and lived a disciplined ashram life did so with a grudge it really pissed me off. While telling others not to speak for everyone, she continuously speaks as if she has some secret power to know how everyone feels, things, and lives. Btw, when I lived in the ashram I was a churchlady. I never broke the rules and I adored Maharaji. I was a gopi, Carlos. For Deborah to imply that I didn't experience anything by her broad generalizations is truely disturbing. Therefore, yes, I am angry about the behavior of the premie contingent on LG. The agenda there is transparent and that is to attack, attack, and attack--below the belt, too. That's why I jumped all over you yesterday. You said: And I meant my apology; for someone to get into slinging barbs at people, whatever the motive, as I did, who talks about trying to realize and revere God in all beings, as I do, is wrong. And I cop to that. Frankly, I find that remark condescending, Carlos. I can't make you change and be different, but to imply that you have some kind of superior place in the scheme of this world by virtue of your association of Prem Rawat is demeaning. That's my speil. Good luck in your life, Cynthia

Subject: Hi Cynthia From: Jethro To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 01:24:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you say' I can't make you change and be different, but to imply that you have some kind of superior place in the scheme of this world by virtue of your association of Prem Rawat is demeaning. ' This guy is a self-made bhakti. What can you expect except severe cognitive dissonence !!!!! This weasel kisses the feet of a paedophille protector. You are very generous in trying to be reasonable with someone who has given away his reasoning ability. To quote my dear deceased father, these people will have a rude awakening...that is if they have any humanness left. I am sure you are not fooled by carlos's fluffy front. At least roupell and the cw-entity don't try and be anything but muti-faced scumbags of the lowest order and show their contempt. all the best to you Jethro

Subject: Re: Hi Jethro From: Cynthia To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 07:44:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your kind words, Jethro. Carlos has proven that he can spin on a dime, notice his tone right in this thread. The premies who post on LG are quite an unusual bunch. In the last few weeks they've posted links to known cults, such as Enkankar, Landmark Forum, Ching Hai. They also discuss at length how to improve the Maharajism meditation techniques, which I find so weird. If Prem's the perfect master I guess he isn't fulfilling their needs after all. I guess they can't go to him and ask for advice because he doesn't take questions...some teacher;) All of this is testament to the failures of Rawat. So, so weird looking at it from the perspective of a former gopi. I don't expect much from that crew. The backlash is strong, however, and I am not afraid of them at all. Roupell tries to make me feel afraid of him through his nastiness to me on Symposium. Now I just laugh because he's so transparent. So is Catweasal and Deborah. I don't say this in a feeling of superiority, but getting out of the cult does change one's perspective dramatically! Best to you, Cynthia

Subject: Too many excuses Cynthia From: Docwatch To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 04:25:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''I like to post on Symposium on occasion. Every time I post there Roupell stalks me and makes nasty remarks, insulting my intelligence and whatever filth is flowing through his addled brain at the moment he reads one of my posts. Roupell has addmitted on Symposium that he never misses one of my posts; he uses me as an opportunity for participation I think, through his hit and run crap which is most definitely addressed to me. So it's the likes of the 'Doc,' Catweasel, Mili, and now Deborah (who is now equipped with some special intellectual tools) who anger me a lot.' Listen here woman. I don't care if you are a multi dimensional paranoid skitzo panda bear or what - but when you start telling bare faced lies about me, well...here it is back at you babe ;) For future reference I avoid all your posts like the plague unless they are tagged onto one of mine. YOU are the stalker Fortunately, the threads on Symposium speak very clearly for themselves and prove that you tell bare faced LIES about me here on F7 because you think I can't get here. Never set that delusion in concrete. I notice you coughing up coy grovelling excuses for your appalling behaviour towards others in this thread. Will this episode get one too? I will start holding my breath for your apologetic backdown...... NOW

Subject: Re: Too many excuses Cynthia From: Cynthia To: Docwatch Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 06:25:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't lie. You're confusing me with another woman--one who posts on LG. And here's the link to where you stated you never miss one of my posts. And Roupell? You're not exactly in a position to be considered credible. I'll have to look up some tag to lay on you. Oh, I've got it! Foot Kisser with no Morals. FKM Disorder. I never miss... www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=louella&id=1989.342625438726

Subject: Re: To Carlos... From: Carlos To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 14:59:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You quoted me as saying, 'And I meant my apology; for someone to get into slinging barbs at people, whatever the motive, as I did, who talks about trying to realize and revere God in all beings, as I do, is wrong. And I cop to that.', which I did say. But you said, 'Frankly, I find that remark condescending, Carlos. I can't make you change and be different, but to imply that you have some kind of superior place in the scheme of this world by virtue of your association of Prem Rawat is demeaning'. My attempt to realize God in all beings has nothing to do with M. I picked it up in my 1st flirtation with Buddhism, when I was 12, years before anyone in the west had even heard of him. And I didn't mean to sound condescending in my apology. I gave you reason to be mad at me. There are, no doubt, some exes who have mental conditions, just as their are bongo premies. But to hurl that kind of insult at you as a group was wrong, oeriod. Perhaps even more so because it was done in jest. And it was wrong besause it was wrong, not because of any behaviour patterns I may be trying to live up to; that's irrelevent, here. I hope this time I don't sound condescending. By the way, Your apology is accepted, but I don't really feelyou owed me one.

Subject: By the way, Carlos From: Jim To: Carlos Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 20:22:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who do YOU think's lying? Me or Deb? And why?

Subject: Re: By the way, Carlos From: Carlos To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 23:55:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't know enough to feel entitled to an opinion, jim. But, so as to not seem to be dodging, if your version is not factually accurate I would believe you could have lied whereas if her version was factually accurate I could believe she had mistake. I could also buy different interpretations cpuld be behind your current feud if it turned out you both were factually accurate. Jim, all of this is just off the top of my head- you just aren't important enough tome for me toput any work into it. Now, if Deb had asked your question, I'd be willing to put in an hour or 2 of research. Before she left your fold and got away from your influence she recognized some of her treatment of me wasa bit over the top and was able to apologize for it. That's called class, Jim. Something you might discover in the next life if you are lucky, IMO.

Subject: But that doesn't work, Carlos From: Jim To: Carlos Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 10:03:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't know enough to feel entitled to an opinion, jim. But, so as to not seem to be dodging, if your version is not factually accurate I would believe you could have lied whereas if her version was factually accurate I could believe she had mistake. I could also buy different interpretations cpuld be behind your current feud if it turned out you both were factually accurate. Jim, all of this is just off the top of my head- you just aren't important enough tome for me toput any work into it. Now, if Deb had asked your question, I'd be willing to put in an hour or 2 of research. Before she left your fold and got away from your influence she recognized some of her treatment of me wasa bit over the top and was able to apologize for it. That's called class, Jim. Something you might discover in the next life if you are lucky, IMO. --- Carlos, You say that if Deborah's version isn't 'factually accurate' you could believe she's mistaken but that doesn't work. There's nothing to be mistaken about. Either she threatened Pat like that or she didn't. Deborah is insistent that I'm making it all up, that it's my 'sociopathic scam' or something. She's completely lying and it's the way she's lying that shows you all you need to know about her. Think about it.

Subject: Re: But that doesn't work, Carlos From: Carlos To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 14:32:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For once you almost, IMO, have a point. Either she made a threat, or at least something that sounded like a threat, or she didn't. However I've seen you forget comments that you msde, or at least deny that you made them. If she was angry and said something for effect she could forget having done so just as easily as you did. I'd call that a mistake. You probably wouldn't, but you are in the middle of the dispute. And, again, I don't know enough to have an opinion and don't want to find out. I don't much care what is done to an abuser like you.

Subject: You can say THAT again!! From: Jim To: Carlos Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 16:31:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For once you almost, IMO, have a point. Either she made a threat, or at least something that sounded like a threat, or she didn't. However I've seen you forget comments that you msde, or at least deny that you made them. If she was angry and said something for effect she could forget having done so just as easily as you did. I'd call that a mistake. You probably wouldn't, but you are in the middle of the dispute. And, again, I don't know enough to have an opinion and don't want to find out. I don't much care what is done to an abuser like you. --- Very interesting, your admission that you don't want to know the truth about this. Why? Because you don't want to have to accept the fact that Deborah is a such a viscious little liar. No, Carlos, it is far from possible that Deborah forgot the threat. For one thing, it wasn't just a passing comment. She said it with cold, seething determination and I reacted immediately. We went back and forth for a good couple of minutes and it all ended with me virtually screaming at her to withdraw the threat -- she paused, there was a good, fat moment of silence, and then she finally took it back -- and telling her that, for one thing, it was exactly that kind of ridiculously over-the-top inflammatory speech that had caused her troubles to begin with (to some extent) and, for another, that I would never talk with her again if she said anything even remotely like that. No she remembers it alright. Besides, she unwittingly conceded as much when I first warned her that I would tell the story if she didn't stop whining about the relatively trivial comment Gerry had made and which she was screaming bloody murder over and threatening to go to the cops. That is, she said that Gerry's threat was worse or really counted or something because it was written. Whatever she had said, Deborah declared, was only 'verbal' and so couldn't be construed as a threat anyway. Laughable logic, laughable law. No wonder she's been afraid to talk with me directly ever since! Instead, she continues to call me a 'sociopathic' liar knowing full well that she, not I, is pulling the scam on everyone. But boy does she ever have you guys wrapped around her finger! For example, as soon as she heard that Roupell opined that he couldn't see me lying about this, she started bleating about how he was just kidding. Roupell came over to Symp to categorically, emphatically deny that he was joking in the slightest. And of course he wasn't because it wasn't a joking kind of thing. He asked what happened, I explained, carefully trotted out all the evidence (except for something from my witnesses) and my explanation and he stated, unsurprisingly, that it looked like I was telling the truth. He'd like to hear Deb's side of the story, sure, but, again, he didn't think I was lying. But the really funny thing is that he's afraid to tell Deb that! Instead he lets her go on and on puttign words in his mouth, claiming without any reason but her own blustery spirit of denial, that he didn't mean it and he's afraid to say anything!

Subject: Re: You can say THAT again!! From: Carlos To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 01:30:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I stopped reading after the first paragraph when you again MISINTERPRETED my motives. You are still batting 000 at guessing were I'm coming from. 1st, the negative spin you tried to use by calling my comment an admission ... that's probably just your conditioning as a defense lawyer, but it feels like a sleezy tactic. 2nd, in the very next sentance I TOLD you why I didn't want to know more; how could you miss it, stupidity or manipulaativeness (if there is such a word)? For other readers who missed because of your misdirection, and for you (just in case it was stupidity or bias induced blindness), you are anabuser. Therefor you are not worthy of 1 second of my time. When I pay attention to you it is for one of three reasons: 1) you are being outrageous on something where I don't care to see an abusive personality be allowed to act out without opposition (frequent), 2) I am having pity on you (frequent), or 3) you have managed to push my buttons somehow (less frequent than it used to be). I'm still praying for you in the healing circle every Sunday that I make it to the Gathering of the American Indian Church, by the way. Which is almost every Sunday now that I've moved back into Orange County. You clearly need help as badly as ever, IMO.

Subject: No one's gonna fall for that, Carlos From: Jim To: Carlos Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 10:54:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No one's will believe you when you say that the reason you don't care who's telling the truth is that you don't care what happens to 'an abuser' like me. Rather, everyone can see that you're just unwilling to see Deb for what she truly is. But hey, you're not the only one. All the LG premies and their friends are in the same boat. You're all so happy that Deb the Puffer Fish has swum over to your side, if you want to look at it that way, that you're afraid to say anything that might piss her off. Really, I'm just having so much fun with this. First, I asked her new ex-ex or anti-ex or whatever you want to call them. Dave was the only one with the balls to admit that he thought Deb was lying but then he's not on the greatest footing with her either for other reasons. Selene wouldn't touch it. Robyn wouldn't either. Salam started to look at it but got cold feet. As for the premies, they really don't want to say anything. Deb the Puffer Fish is their pride and joy. They're hardly willing to hold her accountable for anything, not when they've seen how paranoid and testy she is. Cat won't touch it, no way. Roupell started to but after Deb learned that he said he didn't think I was lying (but wanted to hear her side), he backed off and allowed her to crazily dismiss him saying that as a joke. What a coward he turned out to be, though! He came over the Symp to forcefully argue that he wasn't kidding but he's afraid to say that to Deb's face and thus she continues saying he didn't mean it and he won't correct her. You're transparent, Carlos.

Subject: Dear Carlos, the truth is always simple From: PatC To: Carlos Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 01:04:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Carlos, you may or may not understand all the ins and outs of the ''Debacle'' but I doubt it. You seem to read almost everything on all the forums. I could point out instances where you have made that quite obvious. Of course I have also seen that you have a very selective consciousness. I guess it has to do with your theory, which you recently propounded on LG, that human consciousness filters out 99% of the information so that we are not overwhelmed. No doubt you were referring to Aldous Huxley's theories in ''The Doors of Perception'' but his theories have been debunked and relegated to the file marked ''wild imaginings induced by psychedelics.'' But no matter what the cause, it is very apparent to anyone who has followed your career on the premie/ex forums that you have a selective intake of information and that your ''filters'' are set at a rather high threshhold. Either willfully or because you are ''challenged'' in the doors of perception area, you often fail to see what is obvious to everyone else. I realize that it is convenient for you (and your fellow apologists, CW and DR) to now forget that Deborah was once one of your worst detractors. I'm sorry to say this but I think you are being extremely deceitful in your answer to Jim. I find it hard to believe that you do not know that Jim has stated unequivocally that Deb told him on the phone that she wanted to get someone to kill me. Jim has two witnesses to that phone call. Deborah not only denies this but has done some real jiving around it. In fact it is the main subject of most of her posts at present. All she does is villify Jim in post after post. She smears his name in much the way that that other pathological game-player, Roupell, attempts to smear me in post after post. All that Jim is asking is: do you think he is he lying or is Deborah lying when she says that Jim is lying? Couldn't be simpler. And I know that you know the answer but it is an inconvenient answer. Let's see you squirm out of this one. You don't have any fancy hindu words like unrepentant ''bahkti'' to obfuscate with this particular piece of inconvenient information like you can with Rawat's avoidance of responsibility for the manslaughter of an innocent Indian premie.

Subject: Re: Dear Carlos, the truth is always simple From: Carlos To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 14:52:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC, there have been times when I have read virtually everything on the (at the time) 3 maine BBs that have drawn people who are or were involved with M, LG, AG &f5. I have been reading progressively fewer & fewre posts since about the time F5 morphed into F6. So I really didn't know Jim was asking me about an on the phone rather than on the boards threat. I can see Jim setting up a false threat, including suborned false witnesses. I can see Deb saying something in anger she didn't mean beyond the heat of the moment. I can't see her making a credible threat. So there is astraight answer. By the way, maybe you missed them, but in at least 5 posts I've commented that Deb and I 1st corresponded when she was defending Jim when he was in one of the most verbally abusive (on his side) exchanges he has ever had with me, that she went over the top in his defense, that she later realized it and apologized & we became friends. Jim, to my knowledge, has only apologized to 1or 2 of the exes he abused, and even then only when a lot of exes were pressuring him. She was not under pressure to apologize to me, in fact she got some flac from some exes over it. And this was while she was still an ardent ex, before she became the 1st 'ex ex'. So, despite her going over the top when she gets pissed (which I seem to remember Katie doing, tho for much shorter periods, and her never getting grief over it like Deb does), I respect her while I find Jim to be worthy only of contempt. Think he'll ever grow up enough, develop enough class, to own up to his mistakes, his abuses, and amend his behaviour? I don;t.

Subject: That's very funny, Carlos From: Jim To: Carlos Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 16:48:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Talking with you about anything substantive is like walking through a barnyard. I have to be careful where I step because your, um, stuff is all over the place. Oh sorry, Carlos, did I abuse you again?? :) So you can actually see me lying about this, can you? Based on what? As for Deb, it hardly matters if she said it in a moment of anger and didn't really mean it. Hell, I have no idea how much she meant it right there and then. Maybe she doesn't either. But that's hardly the point. I've always said that, at least by the time I hung up the phone, I was satisfied Pat wasn't really in danger. Well, for one thing, she'd retracted the threat. For another, I knew how Deborah is a sorry, little middle-aged woman with pretty much nothing in this world. I helped her out not once but twice when she was about to be kicked out of her apartment because she was waiting for her next student loan and couldn't pay the rent. And although she loved to talk about how she was soooooo tight with this 'heavy' person and that, I already knew that, in all likelihood, she was exaggerating either their importance and / or her relationship with them. After all, everyone I introduced her to had that same, invariable reaction. They'd humour her while she button-holed them and nattered on endlessly, all wide-eyed, over-amped, in-your-face, frozen smile ... get the picture? So I hardly thought she was in any position to actually carry such a threat out even if she meant it. No, Carlos, sorry bud but I'm not lying. But go ahead and even try to get Deborah to talk about this. Go ahead, I dare you! Ask her what, if anything, really happened. Ask her if there was a phone call, perhaps. Did she say anything? She'll rip your head off! LOL!

Subject: Debbie the Dominatrix does LG From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 01:00:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I got to hand it to her. She has all the premies on LG eating out of her hand. They are terrified of her. Has she got them p --- y whipped.

Subject: Pat, your patience seems unending!!! From: Jethro To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 02:57:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't you know that Bhaktis believe that facts have nothing to do with truth(or should I say Truth). It is the ultimate spirtual masturbation. I think Carlos really knows that prem is just another deceptive lying con-man, but can't let himself see it because it may mean that he has to face his true-self or is it True Self or is it just simply 'the facts'? Sheesh, I thought myself a bhakti for some years. I saw Him behind everything. When all the stuff cameout about his silence on his employees perforning unsopeakable acts, I was absolutely certain he would speak up and clear up the matter, after all I heard him say that he could unzip the sky and make all non-pwks float above the ground if He wanted to and wasn't there something about a Father not letting His children enter the fire. Cheers for now Jethro

Subject: Pat, does it ever occur From: James To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 02:05:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: to you to shut up occasionally? Any reasonable outsider would think you were mad to go on incessantly about the ins and outs of these situations. Sometimes a dignified silence says a lot more than a million ever more convoluted words. If someone's behaving badly, just let them tie themselves up in their own knots, and reasonable public opinion will see through the truth of the matter without your eternal sermons.

Subject: And who may I ask are you? From: PatC To: James Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 10:39:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, your message summed up in your phrase, ''a dignified silence,'' makes me think that you, like Rev Rawat, would prefer that I keep quiet. Now, wouldn't that be convenient?

Subject: Re: By the way, Carlos From: Carlos To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 23:55:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't know enough to feel entitled to an opinion, jim. But, so as to not seem to be dodging, if your version is not factually accurate I would believe you could have lied whereas if her version was factually accurate I could believe she had mistake. I could also buy different interpretations cpuld be behind your current feud if it turned out you both were factually accurate. Jim, all of this is just off the top of my head- you just aren't important enough tome for me toput any work into it. Now, if Deb had asked your question, I'd be willing to put in an hour or 2 of research. Before she left your fold and got away from your influence she recognized some of her treatment of me wasa bit over the top and was able to apologize for it. That's called class, Jim. Something you might discover in the next life if you are lucky, IMO.

Subject: To: Carlos... From: Cynthia To: Carlos Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 15:47:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Carlos, And I didn't mean to sound condescending in my apology. I gave you reason to be mad at me. There are, no doubt, some exes who have mental conditions, just as their are bongo premies. But to hurl that kind of insult at you as a group was wrong, oeriod. Perhaps even more so because it was done in jest. And it was wrong besause it was wrong, not because of any behaviour patterns I may be trying to live up to; that's irrelevent, here. The problem Carlos is that I don't see it as 'in jest.' Maybe it's the limitation of cyberspace. I certainly hope by your statement ''you as a group'' was a reference to the ex-premies, not my MPD. I am really not part of any group here or within myself. I am one whole person for Christ's sake. None of us here are in a ''group.'' That's the whole point. Of course, some of us have posted here over a couple of years and know each other but Ex-Premie-ness isn't a group. Quite the opposite. That's the problem I'm having right now with the spin going on at LG. And where the rubber meets the road, right here on F7, being part of a 'group' is quite unsavory to me and others, too. Furthermore, Deborah is not joking. She is quite serious. And if, by some remote chance she is joking, then she needs some serious talking to because she is saying things that just are not true, both about herself and her perception of this forum and ex-premies. Especially her perception of herself. That, IMO, is quite disturbing. Well, thanks for the apology. I know you're not a bad person and I am a bit tired of the games premies are playing these days as a result of EPO and this forum. They are serious 'games' that need to stop. I ask you, if premies are so satisfied with Maharaji and Knowledge, then why is EPO and the forum such a threat? Maharaji does say, after all, that you must have faith in him. I don't, but premies should, if they really want to be premies. Cynthia

Subject: Re: To: Carlos... From: Carlos To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 02:23:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, 'you as a group' referred to the exes. I know you've been flamed over your condition before. That is, in part, why I feel so bad about having offended you with a cutting remark about ex mental healh. I do see people who have left M and who come to F7 as a group, Cynthia. It quacks like a group, it waddles like a group, it swims like a group; to me, it's a group. But I know that it is a group of individuals. And I respect your desire to be acknowlegded as an individual. I will attempt to do so. About Deb - I don't want to get into that with you, especially during a period where we seem to be establishing a basis for civil future discourse, and especially since I'm 'coming from behind', so to speak, since this series of posts happened because I went over the top and offended you!

Subject: You want to hear from my witnesses, Carlos? From: Jim To: Carlos Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 13:19:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Carlos, I love the way you've tried to dismiss anything I say because, as we all know, I'm such a liar. (??) You've also suggested I'm not above 'suborning' false evidence. Yes, Carlos, of course. (??) Anyway, we all know that you are just trying to avoid dealing with the blatant truth which is that Deborah is a viscious, unrepentant and despicable liar about this. But how would you like to hear from my witness(s) directly? I can arrange it and will IF you promise to consider their story fairly. Do you?

Subject: What a mealy-mouth. Be a politician, Carlos [nt] From: PatC To: Carlos Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 02:33:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hey, maybe 'Carlos' is really 'Garble' From: gerry To: Carlos Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 15:41:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or maybe his twin brother. Garble is a mystery: Is he a foreigner with only tenuous grasp of English? Is his brain addled by some powerful drug? Does he suffer a serious mental debility? Is he typing wearing a catcher's mit? Garble's rampant typos, malapropisms and seemingly aggressive use of execrable grammar can't be explained merely in terms of poor typing skills or the lack of a spell checker. Even non-English speakers generally do a better job of punctuation grammar and capitalization, and Garble is all the more puzzling because if one goes to the trouble of wading through the muddle of his messages a discernable idea will usually emerge. For example, in a forum discussion about a painting he might say, 'Sorry the picchr the har is wrog. The culir. I liike the lips bot teh Paintng is sucs'. When attacked for his random capitalization Garble might respond, 'oPS i HITTED THE CAPDLOCK'. Not surprisingly, he drives Grammarian and Nitpick absolutely nuts, but he is utterly impervious to any sort of correction and if their attacks persist he will sign off in a huff with something like, 'yuor forum si stupef. bYE!' CAUTION: Garble may be Net Rat. www.winternet.com/~mikelr/assets/Garble2.jpg

Subject: nah carlos is way more cogent From: janet To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 04:24:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i got into perusing the entire gallery of caricatures that this comes from , last night. a good laugh and a deadeye ringer for every one of us. we're all in there. i heartily recommend that all of us read them, for comic relief, every time one of these things mushrooms here and consumes all our vital intelligence for a while. and nah, garble isnt carlos. salaam could be. but carlos is a different character altogether. i bet he could figure out which one he is for himself. now, back to our regularly scheduled conflict:

Subject: Re: nah carlos is way more cogent From: Carlos To: janet Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 14:47:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the comment, Janet. I'd say thanks for the compliment, but being cleare than Garble isn't really saying much. I do also try and give you guys the respect any human deserves, tho I ddo fall short there sometimes. Especially with Jim. Don't know why I let him push my buttons, oh well.

Subject: Re: Hey, maybe 'Carlos' is really 'Garble' From: Carlos To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 16:29:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, there is always hope while you have a sense of humor! But I'm not this 'Garble' person, if there wqas anu seriousness under the jape.

Subject: You're a good sport, Carlos... From: gerry To: Carlos Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 16:35:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the 'joust.'

Subject: I'LL MAKE MINCE MEAT OUTTA HIM!!! From: gerry, yes and when I find the guy To: Carlos-Unfortunately Cynthia is probably Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 15:04:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Carlos, do you know your newly aquired habit of writing messages in the 'name' box and the 'subject' box is not only annoying and not very clever, it shows disrespect for your audience, imnsho, bud. And learn to spell, sheesh, that's pretty rude too, in these days of spellcheckers. You've got people asking you if English is a second language for you. Personally I think you are so addled by the gooroo and the cult, your brain more closely resembles Swiss cheese than coherent little bundles of grey matter all happily working together in synchronicity...

Subject: For you, that was polite. From: Carlos To: gerry, yes and when I find the guy Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 15:40:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So at least here, on your forum, I'll comply. I admit I'm a poor speller. And I type directly in the post. If there is some way to spell check here, I'll happily start using it if someone would instruct me. And good luck finding the phone hassler, sincerely.

Subject: Spell check, PLEASE! Is there one here? From: Tonette To: Carlos Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 01:30:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're not the only one Carlos. My spelling can suck at times, not to mention grammer and punctuation. What's a dyslexic, 'I always hated English,' too busy learning Math and Science, person to do? Let's put it this way, I ain't no English major although I know a good book when I read one. My writing is laughable when compared to some who post here. My posting might be a tad better if there was a spell check. Alas, there isn't. The best you can do is 'cut and paste.' I obviously don't do that, too much trouble. You would have to compose in word perfect then transcribe, cut and paste, into a post. So Carlos, you are not alone in your shortcoming. You're not the only one who has come across this obstacle, spelling, grammer, ect. Who are you? I've never seen you post before. I take it you are a premie. Gerry thinks you gave out his home telephone number but you are here to say, emphatically, you did not. Why don't you just call and tell Gerry that? Beats the hell out of cyber words. Why does Cynthia think poorly of you? Ah, too many questions on my part perhaps. I don't read everything, don't go to Life's Great, ever. I take it that is where you like to hang out. What's your story? Why do you still enamour Maharaji? Do you? Answer if you like. Would love to hear your thinking, journey, Sincerely, Tonette

Subject: Hi Tonette... From: Cynthia To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 10:33:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I do apologize to everyone here for my nastiness to Carlos. I have really been trying to keep the recent split and creation of factions away from Forum 7. Basically, because I was a part of the original argument weeks ago and because I am ridiculed on LG as well as on Symposium (which is Chuck's forum) to the point that I wouldn't dare to post on LG even if I was so inclined, I had a hair trigger reaction to seeing Carlos's post. He's a premie who posts regularly on LG. Sometimes a very nice person but unpredictable. Again, I don't wish to tarnish this forum which I think is the best it's ever been, by bringing the continuing saga here. That's about it. I read LG because I am interested in the spin that goes on there about us ex-premies and F7 being a cult. That's Deborah's current rant. Sorry if I upset anyone here, I'll try to be good;) Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Spell check, PLEASE! Is there one here? From: Carlos To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 02:54:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tonette, your politeness is like water to a thirsty man. you said, 'Who are you? I've never seen you post before. I take it you are a premie. Gerry thinks you gave out his home telephone number but you are here to say, emphatically, you did not. Why don't you just call and tell Gerry that? Beats the hell out of cyber words' I rarely post here. The exes who are open to sharing a premie without trying to save the poor deluded fool are few and far between, and this is not a site where it would be apropriate to dump satsang at you guys. So I don't, and that rarely leaves me a reason to post. Yes, it would probably be better if gerry and I could have talked stuff out, but I not only didn't give his phone # away, I didn't keep it. You asked, 'Why does Cynthia think poorly of you? '. Oveerall I think she dislikes the fact that I am an unrepentant bhakti. Specifically, before Deb became the 1st ex ex she and I became friends. I joined her in a farce, she's into pointing out her negative views of exdom these days thru posts she regards as satiracale and ironic.And my contribution to one such thread was offensive to Cynthia. I have apologized to her, for it was wrong of me to speak barbedly of exes in general, rather than specific exes of whom I might believe it, when I have proclaimed my desire to realize God in all mankind. (Even Jim; he's taken the place of Richard Nixon as my examle of 'God's even in him'). But I don't think she will forgive me rapidly. She's been attacked by quite a few in that area, including by exes. And I was ut of line, so why should she forgive me? She did propose a truce, which I thought was gracious of her. you asked, 'What's your story? Why do you still enamour Maharaji? Do you? '. I'd be more than happy to share my story with you ... but this is not an apropriate place for the parts of it that really have substance. I can give you some of my background, tho. I got K in '73, in Grand Rapids, Mi., thru Parlokanand. I founded DLM of Puerto Rico; the first ashram there was a condo my family owned till about 5 years ago. Besides helping bring the 1st 400 PR premies to K, I've brought about 40 or 50 people to K myself. I've sat in on a dozen or more K sessions; translated for Charanand when he revealed the kryas to some central Americans once, in LA. I've never been what you guys call a PAM, but I do have a personal involvement with him, tho we have never (yet) had the kind of external, 'real world' relationship I'd like. I've been in a paint fight with him, but we haven't pklayed chess yet. Which answers the am I still into him part, doesn't it. Hope my going on in some length didn't gross anybody out; I did avoid any preaching or gushing, at least. Can't really go into 'why' tho, Tonette, without definately going over the line. Best regards. Maybe we can figure out some neutral spot if you want more of my story, or the why. I'm open to that.

Subject: How to Embarrass God From: Neville Ackland To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 01:37:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: HOW TO EMBARRASS GOD by Neville Ackland PART 1 Published on expremie.org June 2002 Hi everyone It’s Neville Ackland again with an update on what’s been happening over the past few years in the area around Ivory Rock Conference Centre (I.R.C.C.) The correspondence you see below was sent to I.R.C.C. management and Maharaji just before events in 1999 and 2000. At least 20 copies of all letters were sent to local councils, the police, media and most businesses doing regular work at “the Rock”. These letters were anonymous and as a result their credibility could not be confirmed by recipients. Nevertheless their content verified what a lot of people already knew or suspected and I.R.C.C. became an even greater cause for concern in the Ipswich, Peak Crossing, Boonah area. Conversations I had at the time and since with contractors, council officials, public service staff, and local religious leaders who received the information reinforced the fact that “everyone knows about the cover up and no-one trusts what anyone says out there” (at Amaroo). One high-ranking public servant confided that “the department is very worried that the whole thing will blow up in our face”. Contractors were even more direct having acted as sources of information for many years. Many I spoke to were “pissed off” that they were being “lied to” and did not trust the administration as far they could kick them. They were happy to take their money though; despite being appalled at the “incompetence” described as “ unbelievable” by one truck driver. Massive projects he demanded, money was his greatest tool. When useless spending came to nothing, he played it cool, we played the fool. (excerpts from Nev’s poem, expremie forum 7, 27/05/02) At the same time (over the past three years) every event was pre-empted by the distribution of thousands of leaflets (see below). Some were put under doors and in letterboxes, although many hundreds were scattered throughout Ipswich, Peak Crossing and Boonah. A church elder told me that “every church from north Ipswich to Boonah was inundated with leaflets - even in the toilets”. The Peak Crossing school was leafleted on two occasions. My son’s friend picked up about 50 in the shelter sheds alone. Simultaneously graffiti appeared in the driveway of the Peak Crossing General Store, on the road, bus shelter, etc, whist in Ipswich bridges were defaced. Council workers were slow top remove most of it and rude words like “False PROFIT at Ivory’s Rock Conference Centre” and “Maharaji piss off” and “the gooroo is back”, “god is here” etc were all obvious as people drove to work the next morning. On one occasion when leaflets were distributed and property was defaced the police were called and a local’s name suppled to them by I.R.C.C. management. Not only was he very upset, but so were his friends and neighbours. Maharaji's name was mud according to the gentleman concerned. “The phantom” wasn’t caught, nor were “ the concerned group of Christians” identified. Under cover, in the moonlight, the phantom struck, confusion reigned. Churches, councils, business leaders, all were caught up in the game. Meanwhile in the local town his reputation got around. Letters flying, spray paint splattered, leaflets littered on the ground. They called the police and blamed the Christians Peak crossing seethed with discontent. 5,000 leaflets, the town was covered the phantom struck with shrewd intent. Maharaji had been outwitted (not that it takes much). I spoke to the Harrisville police recently and they asked me to try to do something about the graffiti. I reassured them that I would, so no more defacing of public property, OK? Of course I’m the prime suspect. After all, who else lives nearby, is a political and environmental activist and has the guts or gall to do such things? If there is someone else out there that fits the description, I’d like to meet them, we’d make a great team. Anyway, the days of leaflets, anonymous letters and graffiti are over. The police would appreciate this and have my full support. It’s now time for stage two of the public awareness campaign. When next you choose to come to town, there’s one thing you can bet. I’ll be there with bells on, you ain’t seen nothing yet. As you will see later on, I am about to celebrate my “coming out” with lots of fun activities. Wherever Maharaji owns property, holds programs, video events or whatever, he is vulnerable - no more so than at Amaroo. Legal advice has it that I can protest in certain ways when and wherever I want, without obstructing anyone or causing a nuisance. I’ve had a lot of experience at rallies and was active at at S11, the blockade of the World Economic Forum in Melbourne in 2000. I’ve seen what an impact a few signs and a megaphone have to draw attention and embarrass world leaders. I have a great megaphone and heaps of sign making material. I also have lots of good ideas I’ll let you in on over the next few weeks. A meeting between myself and someone I.R.C.C. management fears greatly is scheduled very soon. If successful, the agreement that stems from this alliance will probably force Maharaji to abandon his activities at I.R.C.C. It will definitely prevent him from using it without great embarrassment. My heart bleeds, for the premies so trapped within your snare, for when you fall, so will they be crushed by their despair. At this point I’m reminded that what confronts Maharaji confronts premies. I expect a great deal of upset will result from my actions. I’ve already been threatened and “they ain’t seen nothing yet”. So when they do see I expect the shit to hit the fan. In regard to this I’d like to reaffirm that it is not my aim to upset premies. My aim is to expose Maharaji and prevent him from indoctrinating new members into his insidious sect. He’s a big boy now. It’s time he leaned to look after himself. If he’s offended, let him defend himself. After all he acts as if he has all the power. So let’s see him use it. So dear premies, keep out of this please. This is between Maharaji and Neville Ackland and may the best man win. SURRENDERING THE INTELLECT The fact that you believe he’s a spiritual master and a great guy is sadly irrelevant. By surrendering your intellect and trusting above all in faith, you have deprived yourselves of the choice to discriminate openly and objectively, as have all religious zealots. Religion, taken to extremes is truly a curse. A surrendered soul knows it’s home when resting at the Master’s feet. He was my Lord, he told me so, my spiritual journey was complete. Once the intellect is surrendered it’s too dangerous for the mind to contemplate it may have made a mistake. The only defence left is denial. Denial is mental disorder so common it is considered normal. The whole world is drowning in denial of one kind or another, a symptom of a lack of conscious awareness. Perhaps the greatest of all human dilemmas is how hard it is to wake up to reality whilst unconscious. The best we can do is to dream on. For human beings to evolve we must become conscious, not just dream we are awake. Our inherent awareness is more often than not drowned out by the many voices in our head that try so hard to deny and protect our vulnerability to help us cope. What motivates us is the survival of our stable datums, belief systems upon which we depend, or so it seems to us. Alas the opposite is true – to thrive rather than just survive we must own our vulnerability instead of looking for someone else to take care of it, we have to learn to look after it ourselves. Religion teaches dependence, the cosmic parent child relationship. The whole world has to grow up, fat chance? I live in hope! The premies were his faithful children, at father’s feet they laid their heads. To keep the secret of the master was our duty, a solemn pledge. Personality cults provide the perfect opportunity to surrender the intellect to the master. Our intellect is a key factor in looking after our vulnerability, hence we remain dependent. The dependent child must defend their parent. Or to be more specific, their belief (faith) in their parent. What choice do they have? It’s only by continually examining and re-examining our beliefs with a burning passion for the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth, that we will ever be free and even then our freedom will never be complete. The profound, dare I say cosmic, dimensions of this journey into conscious awareness cannot be adequately described it’s a “personal experience” (sound familiar). DELUSION Delusion is our constant companion. Many of us are ruined by the time we are adults, programmed to accept without question the unacceptable on so many levels. The process of becoming wise becomes a process of unlearning. We would all be better equipped to make decisions about the existence of God, and who deserves our respect, if we made understanding ourselves our purpose of life and let everything else be revealed in the light of that understanding. Sincerity, although a beautiful virtue and quintessential to our humanity, is no measure of the value of anything. I’m sure Osama Bin Lade is sincerely devoted to Allah. To please him was my only need, he smiled at me and I saw God. I told my friends, what could they say. Divine light shone upon my stage. FEELINGS Trusting our feelings is often a risky business, especially if we don’t understand the complicated dynamics within us that give rise to the feelings. Adrenalin rushes triggered by the belief that our spiritual destiny is being fulfilled are often interpreted as divinely inspired. Experiences deemed spiritual can be taken as proof of the existence of a God or that someone is indeed God’s messenger. In reality, ecstatic feelings (I call them the woo woo phenomena) that some take as an indication of spiritual progress (hence we are on the right track), have regularly occurred throughout the lives of some of history’s most deluded religious/spiritual nutcases. Jai Sat Chit Anand – truth is the consciousness of bliss – means you’ll be blissed out when in the true consciousness, and one could be forgiven for believing that the closer we get to our goal, the more blissed out we become. The blissful woo woo feelings many of us experienced at video events, when Maharaji was around and in meditation, were a product of our sincere beliefs and convictions, simple-mindedness and surrendered intellect. Not much different to what’s probably happening in the hearts and minds of millions of religious and spiritually dedicated folk around the world. FAITH Spiritual crisis, all faith shattered, Confrontation overload. My life’s focus all in tatters, god is dead… religions sux…Oh no! Faith, the foundation of most spiritual and religious belief systems, begins with faith in God. The faithful then adopt all sorts of dogmas and doctrines, priests and shamans, according to what they had been taught and accept as true. Faith in this context may be an act of intellectual suicide. Faith demands no correspondence will be entered into. It is the ultimate cosmic security blanket and justifies complete denial of our rational mind. For those fortunate enough to regain their intellectual independence (as in the case of some ex-premies), hope replaces faith lest we sink forever beneath the waves of darkness and despair. One fateful day amid the madness, The penny dropped, at last I saw, Maharaji, master of deception. My heart broke I smiled no more. INTUITION Intuition is an intriguing intangible phenomenon that sometimes indicates that things are not what they seem. Alas the feeling is only as clear as the understanding of the person on the receiving end. Most recent research suggests our unconscious mind has already made the decision nanoseconds before we know it. The motto here is don’t trust your intuition automatically. Subject it to the scrutiny of the sceptical intellect, good luck. STANDING ON OUR OWN TWO FEET, OR, WHAT IT’S LIKE TO BE LEGLESS The feeling (belief, faith, and irrefutable fact) that we are being looked after by God or some inner force is one of the greatest comforts a human being can have in their life. It’s common to most religions, sects and new age spiritual philosophies. At the risk of being the all time spiritual party-pooper come born again atheist, I submit that there is little evidence to back this most popular and important belief. To make things worse, I put forward the view that many of us (not all by any means) are so insecure we can’t imagine life without our cosmic comforter. To doubt God’s sanity is one thing, many people will agree, but to doubt we are being looked after and will continue to be looked after, forgiven and saved from the nothingness of the dreaded long sleep, is another. After all, this is surely the road to nowhere (how did that song go? Was it Talkingheads?) leading to the abode of the lost soul, communist, atheist, cynic, or worse, the ex-premie. To stand on our own two feet and take responsibility for ourselves may be in the end the battle cry of the true spiritual warrior. We needn’t worry though, not many will rush in were angels fear to tread and the pursuit of truth – at any cost - will remain a realm of the disowned self. Catatonic devastation. Seething anger, revelation. My child shattered, nothing mattered, frightened friends head for the door. What a jumbled confusion of misunderstandings we human beings are. How difficult, sometimes impossible, it is for us to see ourselves, and how many of us want to. Nevertheless, for those who are mentally stable enough to walk the plank and jump into the void empty-handed it’s bound to be the most liberating experience of our lives. Oh dear!…I’m having one of those inspirational adrenalin rushes again, you know? Those amazing personal spiritual experiences that cry out to us that we are on the right track and all we have to do (as Leunig says) is keep on going…or perhaps I’m deluding myself yet again. I’m sadly resigned to the likelihood that few premies will ever read this and even fewer will understand just how profound these words are or act upon them. The devotee doesn’t comprehend independent thought, critical analysis or liberation of the mind. The devotee belongs to Maharaji. The devotee does devotion, that’s all, so if the devotee reads this it won’t make sense. I acknowledge that there are quite a few people with knowledge who haven’t surrendered the reigns of their life. Perhaps they are not premies (lovers) yet, despite having received the techniques. Perhaps you can save yourselves, get out while you can and rescue your seeker of truth, I hope so. This is the letter I intend to post to Maharaji immediately to formalise my challenge to him. Mr Rawat My name is Neville Ackland. I’m your worst nightmare come true and the greatest threat to your divine status and corrupt regime that you have ever encountered. It’s my intention to expose your many secrets, lies and cover-ups. In particular your brain washing techniques experienced by me directly and described by John McGregor (expremie.org Training Sessions “Mindfuck”). Your attempts to intimidate your innocent followers into total submission are disgusting. The evidence is overwhelming and can be confirmed by many ex-premies. Your actions are those of a very sick mind. Authorities here in Australia are shocked by the testimonies they have read and locals in the Peak Crossing area are equally upset. Your investment here in Australia is hanging by a thread and I intent to cut it. I predict you will be exposed to such a degree that it will be impossible for you to continue your scandalous activities at I.R.C.C. Over the next few months, your greatest fears will be realised; your worst nightmares will come true. Burning with indignation. (Not) yours sincerely Neville Ackland. Secrets out, your cover’s blown, The police and press are next to know. Amaroo will soon be over, The lord of lords will have to go. And, as for you Maharaji, you gutless little shit, the game is up, your cover’s blown, it’s time for you to quit. Amaroo is surrounded, there’s no place left to hide. You always were the god of nothing, a victim of your foolish pride. I must admit it appears I’m waging a one-man campaign and a rather aggressive one at that. In fact, I’m a team player, when there’s a team to play with that is. So if there are any Australian ex-premies out there that would like to join me, I’d love to hear from you. It might be best if you phoned – 07 5463 5687 – any weekday evening. Computer skills would be greatly appreciated. There will also be hundreds of stamps to lick, letters to be posted and phone calls to be made over the next few months. Any ex’s living in the Brisbane/Ipswich area that would like to be instrumental in brining local video evenings to an end (legally) should also contact me. When it comes to waging an aggressive campaign, I must admit that’s my style (when the cause demands). Head on confrontation, no mercy, take no prisoners, scary Aries stuff. On the other hand, I’m a big sook, regularly overwhelmed by feelings of empathy. I’m also a sucker for small furry creatures, damsels in distress and, once upon a time, a thirteen-year-old guru, god realisation, and the golden age. On a more serious note, if there’s anyone out there having trouble extracting themselves from the sect or assimilating into the real world who would like a shoulder to cry on, someone to talk to, or better still, a great way of landing on your feet, contact me any time. I can highly recommend a system of self discovery called voice dialogue devised by Drs Hal and Sidra Stone. It’s certainly done a number on me. Nev ATTACHMENTS (letters and leaflets) (If the pictures on the leaflets do not show up correctly please contact me directly I have plenty of spare copies) The following letter was sent to Maharaji in 1999 and was included in the package of information sent to business and community leaders. To Mr Rawatt, I represent a small group of Christian-minded people who are very concerned about your activities and your connection to the Ivory’s Rock Conference Centre ( IRCC ). We believe you are a fraud, deceiving many thousands of people. Our mission is to prevent you from continuing the deception by exposing and embarrassing you until you decide to retire. We were recently introduced to www.ex-premie.org and have spent many hours reading the documents, testimonials and quotes from your discourses. We challenge you to answer the following questions: Why did you say? 'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come, the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now it’s your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth. When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, ....But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth. Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing... So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light. And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith.' So Tulsidas says that he bows down to such a Guru Maharaji, the Master, who is really Hari (Supreme Power) in the form of man. So the main thing to understand here is that he bows down to the feet of that guru whose utterances, whose expressions are able to illuminate. And what is that which is illuminated by his words? It is the heart which is illuminated. His words are able to sever and dispel the spidery web of illusion, infatuation and ignorance. This I have seen myself and realized in my own heart. Yes, in my heart!' (Excerpt from M’s discourse at Shri Sant Yogashram, New Delhi, India - November 9, 1990 - Published in : ‘Life Force’ Volume 7, Issue 2, April-June 1991 - by : Divine United Organization, Shri Sant Yogashram, Shahurpur, Mehrauli, New Delhi 110 030, India). To be in manual or automatic is not up to you. It is your part to play. I am the gear box. In first surrender, there are four gears. In second surrender, there are only two gears. That depends on me what gear I want you to work. Everything depends on me. Not even a leaf moves a millimetre without my wish. (Guru Maharaj Ji, March 13, 1971) Look it's beyond liberation. It's beyond all those things. Beyond all concepts. In this lifetime, we have the opportunity to realize, to be with GURU MAHARAJ JI. Be it not GURU MAHARAJ JI - You know maybe they didn't call him GURU MAHARAJ JI - Maybe they called him Lord, anything to be with that power. To be with that thing. To be not infinite. And yet to be with the infinite. To be here as individuals. And yet to be able to be next to the person who is everything, GURU MAHARAJ JI. The Lord all powerful..... (Malibu Ca, June 11, 1978) 'Do you need me? I am with you. You can't see me, though I'm the light that allows you too see me. You can't hear me though I talk through your voice. You can't feel me, though I'm the power that works in your hands. I'm working within you though you ignore my paths. I'm working though you don't recognize my work. I'm not a strange vision. I'm not a mystery - only in absolute silence beyond the personality that you seem to be; and then only like a feeling and like faith. Still I'm with you, still I hear you, still I can answer you. When you need me, I'm with you and I help you. In the moments in which you think you only find yourself, I'm with you. Even in your fears. Even in your pain, even when you meditate and when you don't meditate. I'm within you and you're within me. Only in your mind are the problems of 'mine' and 'yours', but still only with your mind you can know and perceive me. Empty your heart of ignorant fears because apart from your personality, in between, I will be with you. By yourself, you cannot do anything, but I can do everything. Though you cannot see the good - The good is there. Because I am there, because I have to be, because I am everything. Only in me the world has meaning. Only when you are in me, the world will take it's true shape. Only because I am the law, in which rests the movement of the stars and the growth of each living cell. I am the love that is the fulfillment of the law; I am safety; I am your peace; I am everything. Though you fail finding me, I never fail finding you. Though your faith in me is insecure, my faith in you never vanishes. Though you give your faith and love senselessly to others, My love is only for you, because I know you, because I love you.' (Guru Maharaji Ji, Speaking to IDP Group - February, 1982) 'And there is only one path: to become a devotee, to completely dedicate, to completely be dedicated and to completely let go of this life...And the only reason for this existence is to be a devotee. And the only thing that ever happens is devotion. And this mind, body and soul are focused on one thing and that is devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji.' 'A devotee will follow their Guru Maharaj Ji wherever Guru Maharaj Ji goes and not be involved in anything else.' Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace is that power that pulls you out....Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace is that power that saves a being. And only when we become a devotee, only then are we even capable of receiving that Grace.' 'And the ones who deserve it get it. When those devotees those beings who have recognized their Guru Maharaj Ji, those beings. And once I was just reading that statement of Kabirdas. And he says, 'PEOPLE WHO CONSIDER GURU MAHARAJ JI SOMETHING ELSE ARE DEFINITELY BOUND TO HELL.'' THERE'S NO IF'S, AND'S AND BUT'S ABOUT IT.' 'And what do you want for Christmas?...Nobody thinks about why Jesus came into this world. Nobody thinks of that: what's really true of Knowledge, why Jesus came as Guru Maharaj Ji for those devotees, revealed Knowledge to them, gave them that experience. Nobody remembers that. Because Christ came. His purpose, was for sat chit and anand. What he came in this world for, what he revealed in this world, was this Knowledge, that love, that devotion...For a devotee it's always Merry Christmas because there is never a time in this world when Guru Maharaj Ji isn't here.' But I mean the devotee's prayer to Guru Maharaj Ji always is, 'Oh Guru Maharaj Ji, YOU ARE ALL-POWERFUL, you are all merciful. Save me. Give me that help that I need in my life.' Christmas Satsang, December 25, 1979, as published in THE DIVINE TIMES, January/February, 1980. For many years, it appears you played God to a gullible audience. The evidence is irrefutable. You continue to play God to those closest to you and demand all the privileges of the God you pretend to be. All this is kept from aspirants. They have no idea what they are buying into. What offends our group is that you deceive many well meaning sincere people who are searching for a profound spiritual experience. We find this kind of deception particularly obnoxious. We realise we can’t hope to influence the opinions of many of your committed followers. Instead, we intend to embarrass you into selling IRCC and retiring from public life, thus saving aspirants from the cult and giving followers an opportunity to live their own lives. Our plan is to distribute PR material that includes some of the offending quotes. Enclosed are samples that will be used at our discretion. Letters will be sent to media, local authorities and religious leaders. Mr Rawatt, we are advertising on your behalf free of charge. Roll up, roll up come see the one who once claimed to be greater than God. Your mistakes have caught up with you, Mr Rawatt. Please consider selling IRCC and retiring. The next letter was sent to over 20 community and business leaders along with copies of all other correspondence. To Whom It May Concern: We represent a small group of Christian-minded people who are very concerned about the activities of the organisation which owns and runs the Ivory Rocks Conference Centre ( IRCC ). This organisation is now known as Elan Vital Inc. previously Divine Light Mission and is under the control of Mr Prempal Rawatt known as Maharaji to his followers. We believe Mr Rawatt is a fraud and that he is deceiving many thousands of people worldwide who believe he is some sort of messiah with a special spiritual gift (‘Knowledge’ ). We were recently introduced to a website established by disenchanted ex-followers of Mr Rawatt ( www.ex-premie.org ). From it, we have discovered disturbing information regarding the history and methods of the cult. We have included some examples to illustrate our concerns. We are very unhappy that Mr Rawatt is still trawling for new members within our community. Young people mostly who are looking for some direction in their lives. They are indoctrinated into the cult by viewing carefully constructed video presentations based on Mr Rawatt’s discourses. The gift of ‘Knowledge’, 4 secret meditation techniques, and Mr Rawatt’s salesmanship constitute a powerful attraction. The seekers have no idea what they are getting into. The original ‘path of devotion’ to him as the ‘Perfect Master’ and claims that he was ‘greater than God’ have been deliberately hidden. This strategy no longer works for him. He now presents himself as a humble teacher ( with the most secret gift ). Yet to his closest followers he is still God. IRCC has a substantial presence in the Ipswich region. Over the years there has been considerable contact and interaction with local government and the community. We do not realise what a dangerous cult we are dealing with. When it is discovered that a scandal is taking place in our midst it may attract media attention that the local area can do without. We believe Mr Rawatt and the IRCC are under great pressure from disenchanted cult members. Falling attendances, massive debt and management problems beset his organisation Elan Vital. What should we as a community do about this problem? Begin by searching the ‘maharaji’ sites on the internet for proof of what we are saying. Acknowledging the fact that there is a problem is the first step. The problem will only be solved when Mr Rawatt and his organisation leaves this area for good. What offends our group most is that Mr Rawatt deceives many well meaning sincere people who are searching for a profound spiritual experience. We find this kind of deception particularly obnoxious. This letter has been sent to many people in various positions of responsibility in our community. To be perfectly honest, we as a group just don’t know what else to do. Please give this matter your sincere attention. Many copies of this letter were sent to Maharaji a year after the “Concerned Christians” letter. It was also included in the package sent to community and business leaders. Mr Rawat, It’s Cult Busters Anonymous here. We have great pleasure in informing you that stage one of our mission to embarrass and expose you is now complete. You will no doubt be dismayed to hear that all the business and community leaders we chose to send the ‘To Whom It May Concern’ letter now know the truth. Your cover is now blown, you are now naked, the king with no clothes. The media, all the major religious organisations and many of the companies I.R.C.C. does business with have also received copies of the letters (enclosed to refresh your memory). We note with some amusement that someone has been distributing handbills (in large quantities apparently) to every church and school in the local area. Our spies at I.R.C.C have informed us that this caused quite a stir. Do you have any idea who would have done such a thing? Apparently the back streets of Peak Crossing were littered with them whilst you were here last. If this was a public relations campaign by some of your misguided followers we can assure you it has backfired. The Christians of the Ipswich and Fassifern areas are very offended. No doubt you were made a fool of and we know first hand that everyone is talking ( enclosed ). We are about to embark on stage two of our mission. Our numbers have grown and our contacts are more numerous. From now on we will have regular meetings and plan an ongoing sustained campaign aimed at making it impossible for you to return to Australia. If you do we will know, no matter how hard you try to sneak in and we will be ready with thousands of handbills, posters, letters and a few other tricks up our sleeves. We hope you feel very uncomfortable knowing that many of the business and government departments that do regular business with I.R.C.C. now know the truth (for many, their suspicions have been confirmed ) and that tongues are wagging from Boonah to Ipswich and beyond. Cult Busters Anonymous. This leaflet was first distributed in 2000 and then in 2001 and 2002. An estimated 5,000 were produced. WANTED (Sorry, the pictures didn't come out and the leaflets have lost their format, but the words will give you an idea) Guru Maharaji “LORD OF THE UNIVERSE” LAST SEEN AT IVORY’S ROCK CONFERENCE CENTRE HE DECEIVED THOUSANDS OF YOUNG PEOPLE INTO BELIEVING HE WAS THEIR SAVIOUR. HE BECAME A MULTI MILLIONAIRE AT THEIR EXPENSE. HE CONTINUES TO DECEIVE BY NOW CLAIMING HE IS A SIMPLE MEDITATION TEACHER AND DENIES EVER SAYING HE WAS GOD. HE REFUSES TO ADMIT RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE DAMAGE HE HAS DONE TO SO MANY INNOCENT LIVES. HE CONTINUES TO ENTRAP THE MORE GULLIBLE AMONGST US. HE IS CURRENTLY ESTABLISHING HIS INTERNATIONAL HEADQUARTERS AT IVORY’S ROCK WITH GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE. HE MUST BE STOPPED! Ivory’s Rock Conference Centre Mt Flinders Rd Peak Crossing, Qld 4306 Ph: 07 5464 8200 First Distributed in 1998 and 1999. Appeared to be produced by premies advertising, as was done back in the 70’s. Caused a lot of confusion. THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE GURU MAHARAJI IMPARTING THE GIFT OF KNOWLEDGE AT IVORYS ROCK CONFERENCE CENTRE “…I have come to the world with full powers. Accept my words accept me. I will give you knowledge” “Surrender the reins of your life to me and I will give you such peace as will never die” “I swear on the Bible I will bring peace to this world” Ivory’s Rock Conference Centre. Mt Flinders Rd Peak Crossing, Qld 4306 Ph: 07 5464 8200

Subject: Excuse me Neville From: Beragon Ki Jai To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 17:08:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you remember me Neville?I came up to you at the last program at Amaroo and introduced myself as a premie who had been an ex premie,then a premie again,then an ex premie and now a premie again?You said that that was a first perhaps?Anyway I thought I would say g'day and wish you well.Neville you must have balls the size of elephants to do what you did in the face of such opposition. Good onya, BKJ

Subject: with admiration, nev- From: janet channelling sinatra To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 04:37:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a song my parents used to play on the victrola when i was a little kid: 'Once there was a silly ole Ram thought he'd bust a hole in a dam. any one knows a ram can't bust ahole in a dam, but he had high hopes, he had high hopes, he had high, apple pie-in-the- sky hopes, so any time you're feelin sad and you're feelin bad just remember that Ram! OOPS, there goes another hole in dam!' go, Neville, go!. how can we help? he's got another stronghold, just up PCH from me... I satellite mapped every square mile of it from my house to his...?

Subject: that's hole in THE dam.. From: janet To: janet channelling sinatra Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 14:15:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: just a small correction for meter and parsing

Subject: Embarrassing God From: Lesley To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 14:39:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: His servant, great soul, Mahatma Adharanand revealed the Knowledge of God to me in London, May 1973, and then he said: Now that you are a premie, a lover of God, every word that you speak must be satsang, if not you will come back as a frog croaking. Every action you take must be in service to Guru Maharaj Ji, Revealer of this Knowledge, if not you will come back as a dog on all fours. And every breath that you take, that you do not remember Holy Name, you are crucifying Christ.

Subject: Re: How to Embarrass God From: gerry To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 12:34:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I like it. What a great template for me. Great job Neville, just feckin' fantastic, man!

Subject: Jesus,what do you eat for breakfast? [nt] From: PatD To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 11:15:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: How to Embarrass God From: Der Manigmunt To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 03:08:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We thank Neville for his openness and we shall do the same, yes it is true we hate the press more than anything and we also hate the fact that the department of immigration may hear that we will be putting on a festival in a couple of months and inviting overseas members to join us a month or so early to carry out voluntary work that we call service. This is ofcourse is illegal but it is ok in the name of the lord. We think that you are wrong about the local trades people. We know that they have all done a search on their computer and have confirmed for themselves that this place is owned by overseas investors and not by any principal speaker who has no input at all in how this place is run. Well some times he suggests that it would be good to plant a tree here and put a road there, but you see he has no direct connection with our principal client elan vital who is spending millions of dollars here because ...............................well we are not sure why they are spending millions and millions of dollars here because we have lost our script and so now we will hire another consultant to tell us why they are spending sooooooooooooooo much money. Please drop by Neville for a cup of tea, you are always welcome. der manigmunt

Subject: Training, anyone? From: John Macgregor To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 23:39:30 (PDT) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: From Tim and Valerio's client mailing list: 'Tim Gallwey and Valerio Pascotto, IGEOS will present a four-day 'Working Together' workshop with a fifth day for those interested in coaching teams. The workshop will take place near London, from July 27th to July 30th, and July 31st. The workshop addresses the fundamental human issues contributing to performance, learning, and enjoyment at work. The goal of this workshop is to enable each participant to make a shift toward being more purposeful and effective in a team environment. If you would like to find out more please log into: http://igeos.net/workshop.html Hoping to see you at the workshop. All the best, Tim Gallwey Valerio Pascotto' The above is being targeted at German clients - many of whom have already enlisted or attended in the trainings/workshops The German government makes all trainers sign a declaraion to the effect that they are not engaged in cult activities - so trainers don't use their trainings as the 'thin end of the wedge' to recruit people to cults. One should perhaps wonder if such a declaration has been made in this case? John

Subject: I'd need a lobotomy first. From: Crispy To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 07:50:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A lobotomy would make it more *palatable* for me. (Hey cq, how much does a lobotomy cost?!) Either that, or a few of the Borg wires readjusted in my brain. I forgot how to not think for myself. I forgot how to rely on Big Daddy for all the answers. My cover-up, deceptive, whitewash spin skills need honing. I need to practise my 'friendly smile'. I need to brush up on the current, correct 'lines'; - no wait, better yet, find the video with *You Know Who's* responses in it! My Idiot Programme is unravelling, and I forgot where the Run-Home-To-Maha button is. Before I have my 19th nervous breakdown, I need my yearly reboot to be able to 'more purposefully and effectively' play follow-the-leader again. And what a purposeful and effective leader - mistake after mistake after mistake..... Can't believe he still thinks his absurd trainings will help him (it never helped us) - another big mistake, huge. ANOTHER training!?! Uh, I don't think so. Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather have a colonic! John, that's a good policy to have - a declaration that the training is not a cult recruitment session. But knowing good ol' EV/PR, they're always ready with some spin up their sleeves.

Subject: Re: I'd need a lobotomy first. From: AV To: Crispy Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 05:35:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd rather have a full bottle in fronta me than a full-frontal lobotomy.....?

Subject: LOL!! Me 2, 4 sure :) [ANT] From: Crispy To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 12:05:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (Almost No Text) PS: how do you put italics in the Subject Box?

Subject: a lobotomy? From: cq To: Crispy Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 09:13:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a full frontal lobotomy? er ...(hic)... probbly more exshpensive than the full fottle in brunt of me … er, I mean (burp) ... the full bottle in front of me. Is there shomething I've forgotten?

Subject: Re: a lobotomy? to CQ LOL From: Smiley face to CQ To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 10:28:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the laff cq Thorin www.poddys.com/jokes/Cartoons/smileyface.gif

Subject: Just go to the Training... From: Cynthia To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 10:18:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No surgery needed, but it'll cost ya plenty, but make it through the Trainins Sessions and there ya go...instant lobotomy!;) Cynthia

Subject: LOL, yea, shomethin' like that... From: Crispy To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 10:18:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Then all y'have t'do is try ‘n remember not to forget to follow the fool in front o' ya. It'll be a freefall - full throttle fun ‘n folly for all :C) But not for free - first I gotto' find a buyer for my frontal lobe - asking price: US$2700 signed Blishfully Ignorant Again...... (I lost my identity as well as my mind) PS: can I borrow some money? I'll pay ya back, promise ;)

Subject: Training don't come cheap From: cq To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 04:50:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Working together' workshop and 'Team coaching' day registration fee: US$2,700 Only 'Working together' 4-day workshop registration fee: US$2,300 Deposit only: US$1,100 Remainder of 'Working together' workshop and 'Team coaching' day registration fee after deposit: US$1,600 Remainder of 'Working together' 4-day workshop fee after deposit: US$1,200 All prices WITHOUT accomodation!

Subject: Peace Bomb From: John Macgregor To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 23:26:02 (PDT) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: Have insomnia tonight, so thought I’d write up a little post. Have just been re-reading the Peace Bomb on EPO, (and weeping tears of joy of course - as did the premies in Delhi all those years ago). I noted a few of things. Firstly, that Maharaji uttered a prophecy which subsequently came true - in his first sentence, no less: ‘In this age which is coming, everybody will have his desserts.’ And within a year he had gone to the West and become addicted to Baskin-Robbins icecream. So there you go. Less cosmically, and comically, I had it pointed out to me by an ex-premie friend that the Peace Bomb is abnormally articulate, by M standards. I don’t just mean that the syntax hangs together for a change (tho it does), but that its ideas are cogently expressed, without excess verbiage, repetition, inane jokes, circularity, vagueness, logical dodges and the like. Three years later, at his next mega-gig (or would-be mega-gig), Millennium, Maharaji was reduced to: 'We all drive cars, and if you run out of fuel, that's it - you got to hang around somewhere and stop and get some fuel. If a battery goes dead, that's, it. If something goes wrong with the engine, that's it. So it seems that apparently something is guiding something else, and something is guiding something else, and something is guiding something else, and then something is guiding something else. And it's just like seems [sic] to be a series of things in this world that are making one or the other thing go.' From cogency to drivel in three years. Perhaps the Peace Bomb was not merely translated, but ‘polished’? Does anyone know whether Charles Cameron or the like got their hands on it, did a rewrite, and turned it into Maharaji’s Gettysburg? Here’s another bit: ‘See how peace will be established in the world. There will be peace on earth. That peace which disappeared shall prevail again... Why is this curtain of darkness shadowing you? Kaliyuga will come to an end and Satyuga will start and people will listen to me and act accordingly. Do you think it is a joke?’ Well, yep. The Satyuga thing is interesting. According to the mahatmas - and M, apparently - the last Satyuga happened tens of thousands of years ago. Trouble is, the entire Indian subcontinent was at that time, like most of the rest of the world, populated only by sparse bands of hunter-gatherers. There was not even Hinduism then, let alone a Satyuga. The leading scholar of Hinduism, Chadahury, is emphatic that Krishna (unlike Jesus) was not a historical figure, BTW. ‘Place the reins of your life in my hands, and I will relieve you of your suffering. First, be capable of giving the reins of your life to me, then give them. And if I do not give you peace, I will give them back to you.’ We actually had to take them back, but I guess one shouldn’t get too hung up on the details. ‘The great leaders think that I have come to rule and yes, they are right! I will rule the world, and just watch how I will do it. Even the lion and sheep will embrace each other. Has there been such a king before? Krishna was not such a king. Rama was not such a king. There were lesser powers in Ram, there were lesser powers in Krishna, but I have come to the world with full powers.’ I don't even know that it's legal for a lion and a sheep to embrace one another. Jim, what's the case law on this? Anyway, I think that should have been ‘the lion and the lamb’. But what the heck: may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. The above is basically a pinch from Shri Hans, who, I seem to recall, told the Indian Parliamentary leadership - and even the President, I think - in a public speech, that he had ‘all 64 divine powers’. I think it was something like ‘Ram had 16, Krishna had 32, but I have all 64.’ (I don’t think he was invited to too many parliamentary receptions after that.) Does anyone have a clue what these divine powers are? Throw lightning bolts? Raise the dead? Create new galaxies? Heal the sick? Hold your breath for twenty minutes without turning blue? Make Claudia Schiffer appear at your bedroom door? If Maharaji consulted one of the several premie psychiatrists in disguise, and told them he had once believed - and announced to large crowds - that he was the most powerful manifestation of God in human history, I wonder what would be the diagnosis? John

Subject: Funny you should mention it, From: Tonette To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 00:56:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In my vain efforts to talk with Deputy Dog I did pull out the old 'Peace Bomb' discourse/satsang in comparison to what he was saying about Ram Dass and the book, 'Remember, Be Here Now.' I had my child look at the afore mentioned book and I was able to read to her about 25% of the peace bomb satsang before she gave her conclusion. At age 11 she unequivocally stated, 'He's lying,' in referance to the Peace Bomb publication. Her reaction to the book, 'Be Here Now'? She thought Ram Dass looked ill and his Guru looked mean. So there you have it, from the heart of a child, 'He's lying.' I did not tell her from whom or what I was reading in referance to the Peace Bomb publication. We played a little game. Like 'hide and seek.' It's a coinicidence you should mention this particular discourse. The discourse that helped to launch Maharaji's crediability and mission to the unsuspecting, idealistic, shell shocked (thank you Vietnam), white, middle class, quasi educated, available youth here in the 'West.' Did I mention youth? And yes, Maharaji's words have been doctored. They were doctored when translated from Hindi to English. They were doctored when the family business presented him to his followers. Otherwise, taken in it's merit, the words from the 'Peace Bomb,' are that of a genius, or a child prodigy. Experience and history has shown neither one of those proclamantions to be true. Maharaji is not a genius and has yet to fulfill the very words he spoke. In fact, he's forgotten all that. He's adapting, metamorphising continually in order to keep his game alive. I enjoyed your post. I only touched on one aspect of it, the edited words of the Peace Bomb discourse. I agree. This satsang was revised, edited, and spinned in order to capture the audience and potential followers- us. The 'west,' rich when compared to the resources, even today, offered in India. Warmly, Tonette

Subject: John, that was hilarious From: gerry To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 13:01:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The great leaders think that I have come to rule and yes, they are right! I will rule the world, and just watch how I will do it. Even the lion and sheep will embrace each other. Has there been such a king before? Krishna was not such a king. Rama was not such a king. There were lesser powers in Ram, there were lesser powers in Krishna, but I have come to the world with full powers.’ This is good stuff. Wasn't there a poster to go with this? Now that I'm Rawat's new publicist in the US (good choice on Neville for Oz, btw,) I need details, details... LOL

Subject: Editing From: Richard To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 08:52:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent point, John. I have always assumed GMJ's early hyperbole was scripted by his brother Bal Bhagwan Ji (Sat Pal). From 1973 through 1979 I was involved with US DLM/EV publications such as Divine Times, And It Is Divine and Élan Vital. Although I did not personally edit any of M's words, I know for a fact that they were transcribed verbatim and then edited. Grammer, pronunciation and syntax were changed to make it more readable. Rambling sentences were smoothed. Uh's and er's were also edited out. The only way to verify this would be to listen to a tape or watch a video while reading the edited version. Richard, a hummin meglolis from the bigning

Subject: 64-bit processor From: Gail To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 07:09:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, John. The 64 powers Maharaji refered to was his two networked, 32-bit-processor Macs. He never did tell us what his powers were, but we know: 1) Lie 2) Cheat/Deceit major 3) Steal thoughts, ideals, decades of time, money and life blood from trusting followers 4) Have intelligent slaves to siphon off the money 5) Yada Yada Yada I hope Amaroo escheats to the Australian Government for enterprise crime. I'm sure some worthwhile cause could make good use of the facility.

Subject: Re: 64-bit processor From: janet To: Gail Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 04:53:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: funny you should pick up on this. last night when i read that quote of shri hans, it flitted thru my head that the exponential curve [ 1,2, 4, 8, 16, 64..]sounded an awful lot like the way processor power and memory doubles every so often in computer land. if that's the case, then old hans is WAY outta date. we done leaped into the megs an tha gigs, and we is heading into terabytes, any day now. ole prem pal must be crippled back in the wooden box age [if you know Apple history, you know that the first Apple was built in a wooden tray by steve Woz. you oughta see it in the online museum!] hee hee. all 64, huh? my IIsi has more RAM than that. oh wait. Ram had only 8, didnt he?... maybe when God really does come back, we'll know him by his Google... excuse me. i meant goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo... gle

Subject: Re: Peace Bomb From: rgj To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 06:19:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On the other hand, http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/home.htm

Subject: A most enjoyable read. Thanks, John. From: PatC To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 00:40:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You: ''I had it pointed out to me by an ex-premie friend that the Peace Bomb is abnormally articulate, by M standards. I don’t just mean that the syntax hangs together for a change (tho it does), but that its ideas are cogently expressed, without excess verbiage, repetition, inane jokes, circularity, vagueness, logical dodges and the like.... ''From cogency to drivel in three years. Perhaps the Peace Bomb was not merely translated, but ‘polished’?... ''Does anyone know whether Charles Cameron or the like got their hands on it, did a rewrite, and turned it into Maharaji’s Gettysburg?'' Well, it was sure much more ''scriptural'' and dignified than his later English satsangs. I have also thought that it have been ''embellished'' by Hindu writers and later ''polished'' by English translators. But, while it may sound less imbecilic than the car, plane and watch drivel, it actually is still nonsense - a bit like a precocious Mormon fledgling practicing his missionary zeal. It only makes sense if you believe the Hindu religious crap. ''Why is this curtain of darkness shadowing you? Kaliyuga will come to an end and Satyuga will start and people will listen to me and act accordingly. Do you think it is a joke?'' Yes.

Subject: John!!You have made a mistake From: Jethro To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 23:58:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ‘The great leaders think that I have come to rule and yes, they are right! I will rule the world, and just watch how I will do it.' This musr be a lie since prem and his students say emphatically that he is not a leader. It is obvious that some ex-premie made uo that peace-bomb satsang. It is also obvious that prem doesn't have special money-raising,foot-kissing, sessions. Only someone who was a leader and considered divine would do something like that. Oh yes,amd all those videos showing prem in a jewelled crown, asking for complete surrender and devotion were made by ex-premies. Especially that one showing hundreds of people kissing his feet. How much did the exs pay the extras for that movie? Everyone knows that prwem is most generous with his riches. He almost bought several newspoapers from that poor vendor, but did not, as prem didn't want to interfere with the vendor's spiritual development. Have you ever seen a greater understanding? Isn't it obvious??

Subject: A copy of a confidential e-mail From: David To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 14:32:05 (PDT) Email Address: Aspinall@operamail.com Message: Hi Pete, I've read none of the forum but just (only) got an e-mail from the moderator, named Ching, or something. He has lifted the ban so that I am allowed to rebut. But rebut what ? I couldn't read the thread 'cause I was barred and, now I'm debarred, virtually all the thread has been deleted. (So there's nothing new there then.) I don't know what they were saying about me - I couldn't read it. Didn't I ask you to collect it into a text file for when I got back ? Where is it ? A forum I read (for indoor gardeners) barred a single person once. I think they were named 'Jigsaw'. The forum still rumbles on over whether it was correct or not. From the description I understood I'd say that the person was probably schizophrenic. I don't think he ever 'outed' a bully on that particular stone circle bulletin board - whereas I was outing two, hence the vigorous reaction. 'Stop beating me up emotionally', was what I was saying - and that's not even about gender - it's simply about power. Forum VII is the only address I had for Mad (aka Moley)- and you can see why - 'please give me my kids back'. It's not the sort of thing a person wants to hear, is it ? Dave Blastitude www.blastitude.com/6/

Subject: Red rag to a bully, perhaps..? From: Nigel To: David Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 18:05:42 (PDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Mr Aspinall, you wrote: . I don't think he ever 'outed' a bully on that particular stone circle bulletin board - whereas I was outing two, hence the vigorous reaction. 'Stop beating me up emotionally', was what I was saying - and that's not even about gender - it's simply about power. Forum VII is the only address I had for Mad (aka Moley)- and you can see why - 'please give me my kids back'. It's not the sort of thing a person wants to hear, is it ? I will try to keep this brief, because, as others here have noted, this is not the place to air personal grievances. More important, it is not the place to publicly harass, insult and frighten a former partner of yours who (in case you were not counting) you were divorced from a mere twenty-five years ago. (The Queen's last jubilee.) How dare you now accuse Moley (or Mad, as you call her) of trying to 'beat you up emotionally' when she has not attempted any form of communication with you since you disowned your daughters several years ago - and wrote them (and Moley) letters to that effect. You talk as if this were about ‘power’. Moley has no power over you – nor does she want any. As for 'please give my kids back'... Again, in case you weren't counting, your 'kids' are now aged 26 and 28, respectively, and are thus nobody's property but their own to give ‘back’. Please go away and leave Moley alone, and at the same time, give me a pretty wide berth - for everyone's benefit. Capiche? Your past relationships are none of my business, unless or until you make them so. And anything you now do or say concerning Moley or me, is very much my business. I am sure you can understand that. And give the good people of this forum a break too. Their responses to your previous thread post spoke volumes, and have been saved. Your unprovoked and extremely insulting comments about Moley - which are now on permanent record - were not welcome here, nor will they ever be. We have not asked for you to be banned from this forum, but it is extremely unlikely that the FA's will put up with your present off-topic and libellous contributions. And neither will I. And I certainly don't need your pity regarding Moley, re. your supposed ‘feeling sorry for me’ (good grief..!), not to mention that our current lives are none of your damned business – not that mine ever was. Capiche? Moley and I have been in love for over a year now and will remain so forever. I have no need for patronising comments on my behalf from strangers. Nigel

Subject: Re: Red rag to a bully, perhaps..? From: Carlos To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 21:30:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't pretend to know the facts or the issues, Nigel. But your post moves me. If things are as you make them sound, it was perhaps the most noble post and one of the most principled stances I've seen on the web.

Subject: Well thanks, sort of... From: Nigel To: Carlos Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 17:28:35 (PDT) Email Address: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: ..Carlos, But I am having difficulty squaring what you have written here with that little rant you did over on 'Life is Great' in response to my post to CD to silence the premie gossips posting obnoxious and undeserved snide remarks about a number of people I care about - and about whom they know nothing - zilch - bugger all. (Nor need to know) No, you don't understand the issues involved - and I didn't intend that anybody here or over there should even know about them, so don't hold your breath for an explanation. We didn't invite any of this stuff to be aired in public and I have so far merely restricted my responses to correcting factual errors that might otherwise cast Moley in a bad light amongst exes here or the aforementioned gossips - that 'no smoke without fire', sort of assumption people make. (I have promised myself never to post on LG again. I just looked in today and truly the place resembles a mindless, troll-infested hell-hole. I don't know how you can stand the place...) And please don't try and drag me into any kind of personal spat you might have with Jim over something 'supportive' I may have said in his favour way back whenever. I don't post on forums to fight personal battles (though I will always argue a point forcefully if I feel strongly about it). That my views coincide with Jim's on many, if not most, issues must be pretty obvious (but maybe not Chomsky or the middle-east) but I don't see the relevance of your comments over there to anything happening right now. Maybe my above post has helped clarify a couple of things for you. Great if it has. But that wasn't my intention. And nice as it was to be described as 'noble' and 'principled', I wouldn't really see it that way. More a case of protecting one's own - as I imagine you or anybody else might do in similar circumstances. Nige

Subject: How can you waste your time on that fool? From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 22:51:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, Nige, not Carlos, Chomsky! Not wanting to start an unnecessary political fight here, I'm linking to a post on Symp with a National Post column today that wonderfully skewers that man I like to hate. No, not Maharaji, the other one. :) Good post to Moley's ex, by the way. But how can you talk to someone like that anyway? Anyone who disowns his kids and then bitches that they don't visit regularly is an idiot. For this guy to think he's got the moral high ground here is preposterous. No, again, I'm not talking about Carlos, I mean David! :) Manufacturing Dissent www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=louella&id=14208.998506476654

Subject: Dissent needs no manufacture... From: Nige'n' Moley To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 20:25:58 (PDT) Email Address: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Jim, You don't half link to some crap writers. You have done this before, I seem to remember (Brian Appleyard...?) I will freely admit that Mr Chomsky might have talked some crap in his time - though I haven't seen it (basically - my high opinion of him stems mostly from his linguistic stuff plus, politically, some in-depth interviews of his I have read and admired. So am not exactly an expert like Joe) But this guy you have linked to is so badly written and poorly-structured I could barely get past three paragraphs (never mind almost choking on my multiple splutterings of 'kneejerk reactionary crap writer person'). Which was actually Moley's phrase. So over to Moles... That wos him - this is me - excuse me! I never said that! But - well - that link (albeit skim-read - it's 4 am here) was full of jingoistic right-wing shite. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with right-wing ideology per se (quote from Nige, 'at least in terms of its punctuation, which is often surprisingly good...'). As Dennis Potter used to say, he used to get up in the morning and not know if he was left- or right-wing - even though he was, of course, totally left-wing. Or something like that. :) What is your beef with Chomsky BTW? My uni tutor hates him too - but he's a cultural theorist and a post-Marxist fer Gawd's sake. And, re: your other point - no, you are right, you can't really talk to someone like that. Talking to myself really, for my own sake, as was Nige, for his sake. Best Moles

Subject: David From: Moley To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 18:23:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear David, I have not ‘beaten you up emotionally’. And anyway, even if I had, you beat me up physically enough times, so call it the 'karmic' universe (or some other such spiritual cult bollocks). You had pretty much unlimited access to the girls when they were little. When they were teenagers I left you and them to get on with it. Now that they are thoroughly grown up, your relationship with them is none of my business. You disowned them. What, pray tell, am I supposed to do about that? Leave me alone. And tell that recipient of your so-called 'confidential' email, that premie Pete, to ‘fuck off’ from me and quit meddling in affairs that concern me. If he has any shred of personal integrity or, for that matter, common sense,left. (PS Apologies to the admins of this forum who must be sick of reading this stuff)

Subject: Apparently the wrong Pete From: Moley To: Moley Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 15:56:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or so he tells me. Not Pete W. but Pete J. (methinks).

Subject: Indoor growing? From: Marshall To: David Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 17:49:14 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Yeah! 'Indoor growing forum' What exactly are we growing indoors, David? Skunk #5 x Northern Lights?

Subject: Could we just drop this, David? From: PatC To: David Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 15:51:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This public forum was never the appropriate place to air your private grievances against Moley. Now, if you wish to air your grievances against Rev Rawat, you are most welcome. BTW I was the person who deleted the entire thread which you started originally as this was not the proper place to post it. Could we just move on now please and drop this whole subject? Thank you. Patrick Conlon, San Francisco.

Subject: PatC, a request please From: Joy To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 12:47:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Could you, if you have it still online somewhere, e-mail David a copy of my post in that thread? I think he needs to see it. How are ya, BTW? I'll be having dinner w/Joe in a week's time after his epic journey in Ireland. Love, Joy

Subject: Hi Joy From: PatC To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 13:11:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, I didn't keep a copy, Joy. It was good. I'm sorry I didn't keep it as it would have been the perfect response to post now. I'm fine thanks and I hope you are fit and happy. Be sure to drink a toast to all your pals in SF with Joe.

Subject: Thanks, PatC From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 18:45:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There never is a time and a place for such posts as David A's. Even if there was such a place it sure isn't here. Thanks for stating the obvious you Haight filled looser! Richard, who will eventually make it to SF to meet you and Chuck in 3D

Subject: We'll roll out the red carpet. [nt] From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 00:43:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: And quite a spread it is... From: gerry To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 14:57:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patty is still insisting I take HER there soon. She can't stand to miss out on any fun and has been bugging me for weeks now. I should have kept my big mouth shut!

Subject: Re: A copy of a confidential e-mail From: 'Ching' To: David Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 14:57:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, you are an insulting bastard, aren't you Dave? Got anything cogent to say before I 'blast' your worthless ass back in to cyberspace?

Subject: Re: A copy of a confidential e-mail From: Cynthia To: David Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 14:55:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David, I don't know you and I don't understand what you're about with posting this email. I think it's inappropriate for you to be posting about personal and private matters that concern your ex-wife and your daughters. I think I understand a bit about where you're coming from from my own life experience. But this is a public forum about exiting the Maharajism cult. Yours is not a topic that I wish to see discussed here. Before you bad-mouth your ex-wife and daughters, perhaps you might consider talking to a friend or a professional in real life in order to resolve those issues which you have about your personal and private matters. Otherwise, unfortunately for you, because I and many others here like Moley, your behavior probably won't be tolerated on this particular forum. This isn't a gardening forum, David. It's a forum for discussing serious issues about cult exiting. Please be assured that I am not trying to put you down. I simply believe that this is not the place for you to air your grievances, about which, most of us are ignorant. I do hope you find happiness in your life without resorting to airing information about your daughters here. They are your daughters, after all. Sincerely, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont USA

Subject: P. Halley's 3rd letter and From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 01:54:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat Halley's Third Letter to ex-premies and a summation of the whole issue Murder Attempt in Denver Now on EPO. Thanks to Swami Suchabanana, Will, M Donner, Pat Halley et all

Subject: Pat Halley/ Fakiranand From: Mike Finch To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 10:38:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi EPO WebMasters I like the EPO page detailing this episode, and Mike Donner's stuff, but I think you should for completeness put some of Nick's posts in there. If you remember, several times Nick has posted that in the months between the pie attack and the Millenium event he was driving Fakiranand in Switzerland. This shows that right after the attack Fakiranand was still a trusted Mahatma, doing the usual Mahatma tour, but just not in the US. And if he was put on a flight from US to India, he clearly got off it in Europe and stayed there for a while. -- Mike

Subject: Re: Pat Halley/ Fakiranand From: Jean-Michel To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 14:12:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK, we'll update the page Thanks for reminding me !!

Subject: Re: Pat Halley/ Fakiranand From: Nick To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 00:25:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jean Michel If you need any reminder of the details I gave in previous posts about Fakiranand's stay in Europe, do contact me. Nick

Subject: Check the updated version From: Jean-Michelm To: Nick Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 02:10:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Murder attempt in Detroit and email me if needed JM jmkahn@club-internet.fr

Subject: Not Denver, but Detroit! From: Jean-Michel To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 06:16:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just fixed my mistake: Murder Attempt in Detroit

Subject: Where's your Kingdom Prem? From: PatD To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 17:07:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who the fuck are you anyway? One million people gathered together today in London,of their own volition,to celebrate the Queen of England's golden jubilee.Now this woman has never promised to show anyone God within(unlike your own good self),has never stated that she can turn the bombs into petals,in fact has never promised anything except what she promised when she was crowned,which was that she would serve her people. Remember that word Prem,'serve',you made a big deal out of it & a shit load of bread you little bastard. Time was when you were tipped for the top job,& I don't mean the poxy queen of england but the Lord of the Universe.So what went wrong? Something did for sure & guess what,it was you. You never were up to the job because you never believed it yourself,not deep down. You knew your dad was a bullshit artist who slipped bhang into his devotees late night drinks.You were a nasty little retard as a teenager who fed his earnest followers laxatives,& a grotesque monster in later life who got even more followers to do up a clapped out jet.Then you sold it to that other god botherer the maharishi. I know who you are ; you're the little kid who's achieved his lifelong ambition of being a pilot. You stink.

Subject: Prem Rawat has a golden toilet From: Sir David To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 18:04:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: While HRH Queen Elizabeth II has a golden carriage.

Subject: Re: Prem Rawat has a golden toilet From: Bolly Shri To: Sir David Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 03:14:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think this truck has a built in commode Love etc. Bolly

Subject: Whoa, bro...lets do some hash. Andrea? From: Andy Daverdson To: Sir David Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 20:23:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like whoa, dudes, like we're all on the same team here, right, bro? I mean like it's so far out that we can follow the lord of the universe, er, the 'speaker' of the universe, have our own little religion on the side, smoke some dope and drink some hash flavored chai....I mean c'mon bro, you can't do that in the lutheran church, right?...not even the Unitarians will let you do stuff like that, so, I mean it's so far out that we can all get high and be with the living satguru, right? So let's all get on the same page and get high with our lord, OK? Hey listen, dudes, I know some really far out dudes who live in malibu and I think they've even seen the golden comode where the divine hiney plants itself from time to time, and I mean, if you play it cool, like really cool, maybe I can get you inside the rez one day, and who knows, maybe you can get a peek at it, OK?..maybe even do some service, and clean it for 'you know who', so he can do you know what'... So let's stop the petty squabblng, and get blitzed with the satguru, OK? Andrea, how about a little backup here for your bro... Give us some good old heavy 'sang, with a little cosmic guilt thrown in, ok? Later, dudes....stay high....and...testify... Andy Daverdson

Subject: To the Forum monitor... From: Andrea E. To: Andy Daverdson Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 17:15:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To the forum monitor, Glenn, or whoever monitors this forum for Prem Rawat: I would like to note for the record that I am not resposible for what my brother Andy says or does here. I have tried everything humanly possible to make him syncronized, but he is incorrigable. I know that Prem Rawat also has a brother and other relatives who gave him lots of problems, so I hope he won't hold it against me for having an unsycronized brother. I would really like for my husband and I to be invited on one of those seminars with Prem on the yacht Serenity, and I don't want to see my chances of that happening ruined because of an unsycronized brother. Please, PLEASE keep that in mind in your report! Your's in That Understanding, Andrea E. :) Who isn't using her last name anymore, because she's AFRAID of the Ex-Premie CULT! :O

Subject: Sis, how bout that heavy 'sang?? From: Andy Daverdson To: Andrea E. Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 18:15:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Andrea, loosen up baby.... I know you don't hang with me and the other cannabis encrusted old timers, and you're busy up there in upstate NY with the gardening, and dogs and cats and kids and that website and all, but can't you help out your bro once in awhle? We need a little right on, testify type of satsang now, and you're our girl....c'mon, you can belt one out, just have some trust in the perfect master... Andy I don't pretend to be sunchronized with EV, but I am pretty tight with our lord on the cognac/dope/babe front...I mean we be tight, me and prempal.... Later, sis, got to roll a big fat one to send up to the rez for a party tonight...Mike Nouri may be here with some blondes....

Subject: great read on LG.Can someone link it? From: la-ex To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 15:16:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In a very recent post from Will to Carlos and Harry, Will makes some very interesting points about surrendering to the 'almighty', vs. surendering to the 'filament'(paypal).... Can someone bring it over, or link it? I thought it was excellent...

Subject: Here it is From: vicki To: la-ex Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 15:35:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Carlos, I liked your three questions. Why would you think I wouldn't like your post? I know what I write here does sound like mental masturbation. I have no problem admiting that, but that's because I realize we all go through such stuff in our heads. My 'version' of Knowledge, when I practiced it, was what could be called the Upanishadic version, especially the Katha Upanishad and the Chandogya Upanishad, very much in line with your three questions. Harry, You get more interesting all the time. The specific personal interactions with Prem that you speak about do paint a very appealing picture. I myself do not have any such experience to call my own. I hear about a very opposite type of interaction, posted on the negative site recently - about the words that he said to Ron when Ron wrecked the golf cart (I wish you had broken your fucking neck). So that's quite a contrast for me to deal with. You have grown a bit weary (and maybe a bit wary) of our conversation, so I won't push it. But do allow me to make just one rejoinder here, about the relinquishing of power. You brought up sex, which is certainly apropos. Love involves the relinquishing of separateness, and this is, indeed, what we are talking about here. Remember in Long Beach 1997 when the question came up about continuing all night long. Prem said: 'We're not having sex here.'? So the point that we concur on is: the play of union comes in degrees. I have never had the opportunity to submit to Prem Rawat's will, say he wants a television to be purchased and brought to a certain location, and he tells me so and I comply. (I know somebody who has done that). Most premies have only had the opportunity to submit to Maharaji's will in the practice of Knowledge as he prescribes it, which is different than Prem Rawat's will. I think you will grant me the distinction. But the relinquishing of will that I really mean to talk about is what happens when we die, or when we meditate. I shall tell you Will's technique of meditation. I only have one. First you must promise not to reveal it to anyone else, since it is mine. Be alone in a quiet room, sit and close your eyes and become quiet, ask for help, (not with words), ask for love, (not with words), relinquish your power to the power that is living you. You will notice that my technique is different from the recent version of #3, where the teacher pushes the student on a swing. Such an image is the stuff of good poetry, but not the inner reality. The teacher does not push that swing and it is not to the teacher that that specific relinquishing (or gratitude) goes. I trust you will still grant me the distinction. Meher Baba, the Avatar, (or one of them), said that 'when one gets Divine Knowledge, one not only feels oneself in every one and in every thing, but one then actually lives the free life of God. A Master can give this Knowledge any moment, providing there is sufficiently deep and strong connection with him, or there is complete surrender to his will.' Is that the path of a premie? Surrender to Prem Rawat's will? Surrender to Maharaji's will? Relinquishing our power in that particular way, by joining that stage and playing a little part in Rawat's group of followers, synchronizing our individualilty with the other bit players, and all the other things he has tried to train his students to do? And this is our difficulty, you and me both, whether you care to admit it or not. Surrender to the power within and/or surrender to the Avatar, the Master, the human guru figure, the teacher. Is it the same act of reqlinquishing? Are both acts equally authentic? The guru says that surrendering your will to him is the same as surrendering your will to the Higher Power. You paraphrased my take on all this as being a person who wanted to 'get there' on my own, by my own efforts, without any help. That is such an incorrect rephrasing. I DO want help, all the help I can get. In fact, that is the essence of my practice. I don't want to do it on my own, as if I could consentrate so hard that I would pop into the Infinite, or that I would do such great service that the Lord would reward me. No. Quite the contrary. I only want to relinquish the power that I don't really have anyway. And I only want to get to where I am. When you die, according to some people, there are three or four or five doors, kinda like that old game show 'Let's make a deal.' The doors are closed and you can't know what is behind them until AFTER you choose one. They are marked Jesus, Buddha, and Prem Rawat, nos. 1, 2, and 3, etc. So the person is standing there, his teeth chattering in fear. Which door to pick? I might end up with a lovely dining room set or a big pile of donkey shit. But that's not really how it is, I don't suppose. Rather, I think, there is only one door and it doesn't have any markings, and you don't have three or four or five choices. You only have one choice, whether to go quietly or struggling. That's my practice of meditation. Voluntarily putting myself in that space where I have no choice, only to go quiety with surrender or to struggle with the human mind's ignorance. Prem Rawat says that he is not the power source, but that he is the filament. Without him, the filament, no one gets light. But that still puts him inside of me. And that is false. Simply and utterly false. He is not the filament. We each have our own filament. My filament was inside me before Prem Rawat was born. That is the lie of guruism. We must live authentically. Authentically to ourselves. I cannot submit my will to Prem Rawat's will because I do not live close enough to him. Even if I did, I cannot submit because I don't particularly like the four techniques and I don't really consider them his property. Even if I did, I can't submit because he's just a human being. I can't be a premie because I can't authentically submit. Enough. To him. Later.

Subject: Re: Here it is From: bill To: vicki Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 14:39:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: '''And this is our difficulty, you and me both, whether you care to admit it or not. Surrender to the power within and/or surrender to the Avatar, the Master, the human guru figure, the teacher. Is it the same act of reqlinquishing? Are both acts equally authentic? The guru says that surrendering your will to him is the same as surrendering your will to the Higher Power''' That is a qoute from the post. Priests and lots of others have tried the ''surrender the will:: idea and unfortunately, the whatever aint biting. there is no one that takes you up on that attempt to surrender. The message is, no one DOES get taken up on that attempt to surrender. So, what does that mean? Well, fer one thing it means we are supposed to stop thinking like that and get on with playing the game of life as it is really set up. There ARE rules !! Dissmissing or missing them doesnt change that. I agree, the poster is thinking, but this needs groking by him

Subject: well said, Bill From: Lesley To: bill Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 16:03:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How can you surrender your own will to your own will. If you are going to sit down, you can have as much faith as you like, it does matter if there is actually a chair there, behind you, or not. However you slice it, the reports coming in indicate that people are falling down to the floor, not ending up on a chair.

Subject: Surrender, liberation, and the noetic experience From: Will To: Lesley Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 08:35:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bill and Lesley, My post was originally on LG and I was speaking to practicing premies, two in particular. Now, over here, I feel I should explain my position since Bill seems to be making a point in contradiction to mine, concerning the way that people try to make this 'surrender to the will of God' thing happen. A couple years ago a child who had been born into a cult died, I think in Massachusetts. The child died of malnutrition, which was forced upon that child by a supposed revelation from God through one of the women cult members. The leader of the cult had earlier instructed all the followers to throw away their eye glasses; and so forth. Well, I'm certainly not advocating surrendering the will in such a ridiculous manner; nor do I think that the human will should be surrendered in our daily lives, whether to a guru or to God or to whatever. No, we should live the specifics of our lives by our own will. Afterall, my name ain't Will for nothin'! And I don't think God really cares if I purchase a blue Volvo or a silver Saturn. (Of course we should align our will with the good, as we see it). Many religious people do live by philosophies and beliefs that are extremely, extremely foolish. But in two cases only do I think the act of surrender has value, death and meditation. The case of death needs no comment, hopefully. As for meditation, the act of meditation IS an act of surrender or it is just another futile attempt at getting something you think you are lacking. Many premies practice Knowledge as if there is something to gain, some sort of transformation to happen. Prem Rawat himself advocates that his students surrender to him and allow their 'seed to grow into a tree,' a lifetime commitment to getting some sort of benefit. This practice is in direct contradiction to surrender. Many premies have wisdom about life, but then they end up going through the motions of 'practicing Knowledge' in a very naive way, thinking that when they force themselves to practice when they don't want to, then they are surrendering. Hogwash! Or they think they are doing 'service' when they give Prem Rawat money. Such an effort to 'practice Knowledge' is mere religion and not surrender at all. Such a surrender can never happen in a cult setting, or really can happen at all in the arena of daily life. The very choice to adhere to a particular, very defined path is the opposite of surrender. (Please note that I am not saying that all paths are to be condemned - no, any chosen path may be of SOME benefit to anyone, but the benefit is social and emotional and intellectual and cultural, and must be understood as such). The new premie website ONN Journal will possibly be a bit interesting, because premies are invited to write about their own experiences of the 'noetic' just as the editor has done. The noetic experience is so obviously not the property of Prem Rawat and his very minor cult. The interviews published so far show how premies try to speak in universal terms about the 'Knowledge of all knowledges' and then apply it to the four techniques that they sometimes fit into their schedules. As if! As if the thing that humanity needs so desperately is those four techniques and Prem Rawat videos. Rawat tries very hard to advocate the thing that has no definition but then he defines it by his very own teachings! He will never bring the 'Knowledge of all knowledge' to the world, as he says he wants to do, as long as he attaches it to himself and a very narrow religious system. Surely he will realize someday that he is in the way of truth, not the way of truth. He will stop saying 'this Knowledge is MY Knowledge.' And when/if he does, he will liberate his students in the only way that he is really capable of liberating anyone.

Subject: where there's a Will, there's a way From: Lesley To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 13:42:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Will, I guess I see it this way: at the time when a premie realises they've been had, that they had believed in Maharaji, and it turned out to be a sideshow, one is presented with a major crisis, which reaches way beyond which cult you got stuck in. I well remember the moment in time when I turned my head to look up at the blue sky, and tremulously allowed my questioning to reach the basic childhood level of 'God's in Heaven, and all's right with the world', I wondered if I would ever feel safe again! One of the most fundamental premises of, um, religion, is that you should align your will with God, or even surrender your will to God. So, as meditators, we sat there and learnt how to ignore ourselves, our thoughts and our feelings, fooled into thinking that it was the purpose of our lives to feel 'that feeling', and we paid a price, that of loss of an individual sense of self. I find it ironic that the stick behind the 'don't worry, be merry' carrot of meditation is getting ready to face death, and I also perceive that concept to be dangerous as well as foolish. I do so because I got caught by it when I had a health crisis. I discovered I had such a severe allergic reaction to a common insect around here, the tick, that the next bite would likely prove fatal. So, though generally healthy, I had to come to terms with the idea that the next time I scratched an itch, I could have about two minutes living left. In a number of ways, we do have times in our lives when the chips go down, I reckon it is way helpful to have your head screwed on at those times, and meditating your way into a state where you don't feel responsible for whether you live or die, it's in 'God's Hands', is definitely not helpful. Funnily enough, the best part of losing 'God's in Heaven, and all's right with the world', was that my fears shrank to human proportions. I was no longer dealing with an eternal timeframe, a spot in Heaven to claim, damnation to avoid, of any style, Rawatian, Hindu, New Age, Christian, or parental! Um, I really don't think a quick fix like Rawat letting everyone off the hook is possible. Just think what he would be facing at that juncture, signed confession pinned to his chest, though I agree it would be really nice if he did. ps, I do like your posts, Will, LG or not, they are always a good read.

Subject: The Attleboro Cult... From: Cynthia To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 10:31:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was in Rhode Island visiting relatives when this story was exposed and reported. It was in Mass. I also saw a television special about what these people did. Here's a link that explains a lot about what happened and is continuing. Very sad story. The reason the baby died was because the mother was forced to starve herself and couldn't breastfeed it. Later, it was discovered that the cult had legal guardianship of all the children. They continue on today. It was particularly striking that all of this was in the newpapers when I happened to be visiting--Attleboro isn't far from RI and both states are quite small. They also found other children buried elsewhere. One former cult member got custody of his children (the father of the baby that died). He was afraid they were too brainwashed to want to be with him but once he got them in his car, they were overwhelmed with joy. That's the good part of the story. This father deprogrammed himself and fought very hard to get his kids back. Extremely closed cult with bizare practices. So sad... Attleboro Cult on Rick Ross Site www.rickross.com/groups/attleboro.html

Subject: Vancouver Event From: Y.B.A. Pwick To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 14:13:49 (PDT) Email Address: YBAPWK@tprf.orgy Message: Got yer SmartCard? You can register now for an Event in Vancouver, BC. Only $85US / $130CN for an amazing opportunity to hang with the PR for two whole hours! Special Prasad not included. Vancouver registration www.mediaranch.ca/conference/

Subject: of upcoming events? From: Where is the list To: Y.B.A. Pwick Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 04:46:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can no longer find them on EV sites or PR site. Is everything still hush hush until the final minute? Is he coming around anywhere else here in Canada, Montreal, perhaps?

Subject: Montreal, June 29th From: Back Door Telegram: To: Where is the list Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 08:11:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Details and registration info provided at your local Secret Society video events only......

Subject: Re: Montreal, June 29th From: Thank you To: Back Door Telegram: Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 07:47:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We will provide advertisement for his arrival. See your local Montreal papers for info.

Subject: You want a list? From: Richard To: Where is the list Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 09:33:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You mean an actual list of events so people could plan more than a week ahead of time, book bargain flights and arrange for vacation time? You can't be serious. That would be too easy and just like the real world. What do you expect? He's only been doing events for 30 years now. The last few events I attended in the late 90's I found out about on an earlier version of this forum - not joking. The announcement from Élan Vital was usually in my mailbox when I got home AFTER the event. M once said something to the effect: It's not good if the premies have too much time to think about whether they want to go to an event or not. Too little time is just enough time. Keep 'em in a state of anxiety and then do a program with no lead time. Creates excitement and spontaneity for the otherwise bored middle aged premies. Such lila, such surrender, such arrogance.

Subject: Re: You want a list? From: PatD To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 17:24:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The last few events I attended in the late 90's I found out about on an earlier version of this forum - not joking The guy who told me about the upcoming(July 22 Brighton,posted here)had only got a vague rumour,said it was London,didn't know the date,& had forgotten that I'm an ex. Actually, like a lot of premies he isn't computerised & so doesn't know that one can find out all this useful info. from the comfort of one's own armchair. I thought of giving him a bell so he could put his affairs in order....save himself the mucho hassle & expense of getting to the feet at the last moment....then I thought,naaah. That's all part of the fun,shame to spoil it.

Subject: And after a while ... From: Francesca To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 12:10:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... such disinterest. What a drip that was, seeing the manipulation and how stupid it all was. I just stopped caring. Like I'm really going to go to my boss and say -- I need three days off from work next week to go see my meditation teacher. It's so important, and yet I'm given so little notice. And it was such an ODD request, in the context of the rest of my life. And I of course have to book the most expensive flights going to get there. Yeah right, sure, uh huh. After a while I started looking around and smelling the coffee -- seeing that other organizations plan major conventions 6 months to a year ahead of time, and often have them at the same time every year. I no longer felt that Maharaji and EV were special, I felt like they were all clueless. From the massa on down. And yes, very ODD, in the context of the rest of my life. --F

Subject: Re: And after a while ... From: Richard To: Francesca Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 12:26:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, good to see you Francesca. When I had to get a dreaded outside job in Denver, I worked as a waiter at the Magic Pan in Larimer Square. The wait staff was about 1/3 to 1/2 premies. During that phase of a program every 19 days (1976?), the manager called a special meeting. He said: 'OK, all the gurus meet on the patio.' LOL. He proceeded to explain how difficult it was to cover our jobs when we'd run off en mass (pun applies) every couple of weeks. Further, referring to our annoying habit of quickie Satsang at work he said: 'There's something weird about any religion that you need to tell each other how beautiful it is constantly.' Yes, I know this happened many years ago but the way M treats his followers hasn't changed. You want to attend an event, you drop everything and pay the bills later. I know people who are still paying off bills after going to Amaroo several years ago when M decided he couldn't be bothered to show up as promised. For them, the drip was a downpour.

Subject: I got fired because of that 19-day thing From: Joy To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 06, 2002 at 12:56:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard. I got fired in 1976 from the only 'real' job I ever had during my 9 years as a premie, at the Straight Creek Journal newspaper in Denver. I got a job there typesetting with Marsha Willis when I left the 'shram in that space-out year. Those guys hated Maharaji but loved Marsha. They used to trash M regularly within my hearing. They got freaked out when Marsha and I both took off for those stupid devotional programs that started up in 76 and were held every 19 days, so they couldn't get their paper published on time (they were a weekly). I wonder if that paper's still going? Any ex's in Denver know? And I wonder whatever happened to old Ron & Madill who used to run it, I'd sure like to invite them over to EPO if they're still around. P.S. Richard, e-mail me, long-time, no hear.

Subject: Re: And after a while ... From: Thorin To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 14:00:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There's something weird about any religion that you need to tell each other how beautiful it is constantly What a gem!! LOL Thanks for that Thorin

Subject: oops, duplicate NT From: Richard To: Francesca Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 12:26:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NT

Subject: to AV From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 12:19:13 (PDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: Dear AV Just wanted to finalise plans on possibly meeting up and jollying along to the upcoming 'events'. Perhaps you could email sometime (as above) and make contact. Please do use a screen name (using yahoo, hotmail or whatever). No pressure whatsoever to 'come out'. Total discretion absolutly assured. Love, Thorin

Subject: Another anti-expremie site by Garble From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 01:28:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another anti-expremie site by Garble www.geocities.com/exitism/exitism/just.html

Subject: Re: Another anti-expremie site by Garble From: Mickey the Pharisee To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 05:29:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee Pat, why do you even bother to post this crap here? It seems to me that we only find out about these goofy sites when someone directs us to them. Does anyone other than exes even see these things (well, I guess there's the bunch on LG)? I think that it is Salaam again, using stuff from Deborah's 'Intellectual Tool' box.

Subject: Sorry, Mickey, but it was worth it From: PatC To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 11:01:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You provided my first laugh of the morning when you said: ''I think that it is Salaam again, using stuff from Deborah's 'Intellectual Tool' box.''

Subject: About Salaam? From: Gail To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 07:58:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought he was an ex. Hasn't he been posting here for years?

Subject: Re: About Salaam? From: PatC To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 09:40:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought he was an ex. Hasn't he been posting here for years? --- Yes, it's a puzzlement isn't it? Deborah was an ex too and now she's singing the praises of the master on LG. Go figure.

Subject: I would have to give it a 'D' From: Zelda To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 03:54:24 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: wow that one is a collectors item. What is Catholic Exism and is he for or against it?? It seems like the 'premis' is something he likes......... This has to be the work of one person. A group of people would never ok such a mess . The puncutation is so twisted that it makes it seem like what he is objecting to is what he approves of. it appears to be translated from another language into pidgon English. It needs to be re written so it makes some sense. Otherwise it is not doing much for the anti-ex movement. I suggest that a few of them get a committe together and have editorial email sessions so they can get a proper page that is readable and makes some sense. good effort but I would have to give it a 'D'

Subject: On second thought From: Zelda To: Zelda Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 04:15:47 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: now I get it. some ex made that page - the 'copycat' Pink Thing -as a way to discredit the so called 'anti-ex' movement. If another incomprehensible Pink thing was released it would make the whole Pink Movement loose credibltiy!!! good thinking! it was very well done

Subject: The Mysterious Garble From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 01:39:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Mysterious Garble www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame80.html

Subject: Re: The Mysterious Garble From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 04:23:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: *quiet* was obviously a Garble then. Love, Livia

Subject: Drug laced Prasad From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 16:25:40 (PDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: Does anyone here know or suspect that food or drink from Maharaji given to premies was laced with drugs without the premies' knowledge? Just asking:) John.

Subject: too bad I missed out on it !!!! From: trollo To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 02:57:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Drug laced Prasad From: An Observer To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 20:38:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This forum is more hilarious than the comics...when you run out of topics you simply make up your own....and others gladly join in with their own diahrea of make-believe. get a life guys...

Subject: Let me explain, and then you can judge me From: JHB To: An Observer Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 09:02:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I received information through private communication that such a practice may well have occurred. If it is true that Maharaji did this, then it is a serious allegation, and deserves wider publication. If it is not true, then fine. As webmaster of www.ex-premie.org I would need corroboration before I could publish such an allegation. I cannot think of any other way to try to get that corroboration. Can you? John.

Subject: Re: Let me explain, and then you can judge me From: PatD To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 09:42:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There was stuff you could get sporadically via the ashrams in the very early days. A kind of brown goo which came in a gaudy can with Hindi script on it.You took a teaspoonful & dissolved it in hot milk to make a nighttime drink;a bit like horlicks. If it had dope in it the quantity wasn't sufficient to be noticeable,but it sudddenly wasn't avaiable anymore, the reason being given that Customs&Excise had objected to its importation on the grounds that it did contain cannabis. Maybe this is what your correspondent is referring to? I'm pretty sure we called it 'prashad',but I can't remember for certain.

Subject: That wasn't dope From: Disculta To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 20:58:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was an ayurvedic remedy that the Prem Nagar ashram used to manufacture, called Chyavan Prash. Mmm Good stuff! The Maharishi organization still makes this stuff.

Subject: Re: That wasn't dope - but it was delicious! From: cq To: Disculta Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 10:04:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One of my best memories of ashram life was the occasional spoonful of what we called Charan Prash (spelling or pronunciation must have been 'received' as it were!) What's more, I've just discovered it's still available - but not in that pretty (though occasionaly rusty) tin it used to come in (see link above). Dope in it? I doubt it. Apparently it's one of India's Dabur Research Foundation's best selling products. the "dope" on charanprash www.indiamart.com/pravekkalp/chyawanprash.html

Subject: Musli Kand Sveat From: PatD To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 13:01:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That must've been the ingredient that got up the excise men's snooters. Typical of premies : you never could get a straight explanation for why even the simplest & most innocuous things ever happened,or in this case,had stopped happening. Sorry to admit it Disculta,cq,& Carl;I never much cared for the stuff myself,but then not being in the ashram I suppose I wasn't on the same level of sensory deprivation as you guys. I preferred Horlicks,chocolate biscuits,&(sob)the occasional spliff.

Subject: When I was at Prem Nagar From: Carl To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 20:51:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I used to eat that stuff by the spoonful. You could buy a big can of it for not too much money. (It was rupees, after all). It was extremely rich tasting, very herbal, sweetish, a bit gritty. My mood did get slightly elevated, but not at all stoned as one would by toking hashish. It was called 'Chavan Prash', or something similar. Chavran? Charvan? Something like that. I clearly recall the story being widely circulated about M dispensing dope-laced lhassi (sp?). They were SO lucky, those that got into that bit o' lila. That was the thinking.

Subject: One thing for sure From: Jean-Michel To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 09:55:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: is that the chai in the Indian camp (Santyogashram) used to put me in a strange state (high) I never got anywhere else ..... That was in the 80s and 90s. The westerners were not allowed there, but I'd go nevertheless because of my 'service' in that area.

Subject: Re: One thing for sure From: PatD To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 13:33:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah well,we can't even get to the bottom of what he's got up to in the west,let alone India. Lightly drugging his followers wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

Subject: Think it's funny, eh? From: Was There To: An Observer Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 20:48:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The stories told here are true because we are unafraid to tell the truth. Quite different from your make-it-up-as-I-go master. In this case, these stories reveal much about the person we put our trust in and you apparently still do. Speaking of make believe, it's amazing how any person in their right mind can believe the revision Mr. PR is putting out these days. Glad you are so amused. PR is screwing with you as you laugh.

Subject: Re: Drug laced Prasad From: Richard To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 18:06:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Stories were often told about GMK giving some of the first Western premies Bhang (sp?) which is a yoghurt drink laced with hashish. If you consider ExLax a drug, then I was given drug laced prasad. Myself and some other premies were hanging out in the NY ashram the night before the Jumbo flight to India in 1972. GMJ was in the building and we were hoping to have darshan. Mahatma Rajeshwar gathered us in one room for 'special prasad'. We could hear GMJ giggling in the nearby kitchen. Rajeshwar came out and with great ceremony gave us each a dolop of 'prasad'. Later we learned (and independantly verified) it contained a lot of chocolate flavored ExLax - a laxative. How shall I put this delicately - IT WORKED!!! Actually it must have been therapeutic because I never got sick in India. Such a joker that boy guru was.

Subject: I sure think so in one case From: bill To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 16:37:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: remember that guy milky who bugged rawat to make him 'one' so rawat did for a day. I am sure if we ask the milk one, if he had something to drink or eat in rawats house or anywhere where rawat had access, we would find out that yes he DID eat or drink something. And it was ACID <^>

Subject: Hard prashad From: Disculta To: bill Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 18:36:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I travelled with Sulakshna Bai who told me tales of MJ lacing prashad with stones in India. People got very ill. What a lila! Har har har. I swear this was a big drip for me and I left but 10 years later.

Subject: Chillies in the eyes From: Livia To: Disculta Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 04:34:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Along similar lines, does anybody remember similar stories from the residence in London (Woodside) when Raja Ji used to rub raw chillies into premies' eyes? Can you believe it, I used to think those people were privileged. Hmmmm. Thinking about it now in light of what's been said about bullying, we were setting ourselves up to be perfect victims for bullying - no wonder the Rawat family couldn't resist. And we called it lila and thought the people it happened to were graced. And I expect there are premies still out there who would feel graced, like "trollo" above, perhaps. Livia

Subject: dope prasad From: John Macgregor To: Disculta Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 19:26:34 (PDT) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: I have one report (written about in the 'Pam' posts) that dope cookies were ubiquitously handed out in the early 1980s at Maharaji's Mehrauli, Delhi, ashram, after a program - Holi I think. According to my informant, 'Everyone was passed out for three days - Westerners, Indians, mahatmas'. I can ask more about this if anyone's keen for more detail. NB: I don't know if the above was done 'without premies' knowlege'. I suspect they knew what they were eating. Tho one 'shri' (Australian argot for 'super-devotee' or 'deeply religious type') did leave Knowledge over the incident. Now to another topic: Did I hallucinate a satsang by Marolyn at one of the Kissimmees wherein she described talking to an Indian premie who told her he'd seen Maharaji manifest in a tree in India? (Whilst he was out watching his sheep, I think.) Marolyn knew M to have been with her in Malibu at the time of the supposed manifestation, and told the premie, 'Maharaji doesn't do things like that.' Later (she said) she told Maharaji about the story. He said: 'Yeah. It happened.' Does anyone else remember that satsang by Marolyn? John

Subject: Re: dope prasad From: Vicki To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 06:25:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember it told by Charanand. Two premies were arguing vehemently and supposedly he came down a tree to intercede. Does anyone remember a program in L.A. where the entire building starting bouncing? Maharaji was supposedly on his way from the residence when he stopped. RajaJi asked what was wrong to which he replied 'I feel like I'm already there.' The whole place was whooping and hollaring like it was holi. Then a punch bowl arrived from the residence with this yellow, milky stuff 'prasad', and it was an instant high. So if he's just an ordinary fellow, what's with prasad, and what's in it? The contradictions are many.

Subject: if it was LA From: janet To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 01:12:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and the bldg was bouncing, did it ever occur to anyone [DUH] that there was a temblor rolling through the area???????? i swear--so stuuupid! chalk it all up to maharaji and never once glance over to check if an earthquake had passed thru on the sensors!! honest to god, how dumb can you get? I once went to an L A program in some ornate theatre in the wilshire district--probably the wiltern theatre, now that i know the city so much better--this was 1975--for which a bunch of us had cooked down a san pedro cactus and drank it to see if we'd trip, like someone promised we would. sorry to report, seeing maharaji while i was high on psychedelics actually killed off any sense of the divine or grace or lila or anything remotely feeling like the woozy otherworldly state we went to darshan to get. that should have told me right there that he was bogus and it was all self induced. sorta like ' the camera never lies'. in my normal state, i could spin myself into any fantasy i wanted to attain, but with the chemicals in my system, -well, theres no talking to or fooling or proseletyzing to a chemical, is there? it's not human, so it can't be fooled with words and promises. i shoulda taken the sign. but no, i was just disappointed that MJ didnt wow me like he usually did, and i attributed it to my 'impure' state.

Subject: Re: if it was LA From: bill To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 14:48:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember the JOhn M G story, Janet, I may have missed a post by you lately, did you update us on your son? Please do, I am going away for a few days, but If you do post, Ill see it. Hope you are well and he is OK !!

Subject: Re: dope prasad From: trollo To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 02:55:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yeah, I remember that satsang...maharaji still does things like that, he is often manifesting himself on this forum !!!!!

Subject: Re: dope prasad From: Gail To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 20:41:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, John. I remember that lie!

Subject: another great story From: Will To: Gail Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 08:00:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was asleep in the ashram, after nightly satsang and meditation. Somebody came to wake me up, saying Mahatma Ji wanted to give us special satsang. I went down and sat among the other blurry-eyed renunciates. Jagdeo was in the mood to tell stories. Maharaji had manifested himself to Jagdeo one night, wearing a beautiful new blue suit. Maharaji asked Jagdeo is he liked the suit, and of course Jagdeo did. Maharaji astrally flew back home. There were other stories that the great Jagdeo reserved only for us special ashram devotees, but I've forgotten them. One premie woman could also astrally project herself. Once she flew off to visit Maharaji with her silver cord trailing behind her. Maharaji, in the flesh, noticed that he was being visited astrally. He turned and said to her: 'What are you doing here?' He told her to go away.

Subject: Re: another great story From: bill To: Will Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 14:45:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I lived with someone who had quite a few of those astral thingees with our favorite rawat. SOme of them were remarkable, yes she was on drugs, Demerol, but hey, that god feller is a shapeshifer if he is in the mood.

Subject: Jagdeo From: JMcG To: Will Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 06:22:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reminds me that I heard stories, too, about Jagdeo in Sydney 'seeing' Maharaji - just about daily, I think - in parks, city streets, etc. Combined with his interest in children, it does make you wonder about his mental state. J

Subject: Lots of updates on the Best of page From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 09:25:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Best of Forums page Believe it or not, there are now 226 links on that page, including the Best of M Dettmers section !!

Subject: One of the best ever-is it here? From: la-ex To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:28:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was recently reading a post from the esteemed 'swami suchabanana', in response to a man who's wife is a 'lifer'.... It is one of the best descriptions and responses I have ever read... I was wondering if someone could bring it up again to the epo forum from the archives..... Also, is it in the 'best of' section....it realy tells us a lot about mr. rawat, and I think would be quite an eye opener to any lurking premies out there... Can anyone bring it up here?....I'm a computer luddite still... Date of post: Friday, May 4, 2001 at 7:16:31 Subject: tough, but true; the process may be hard but FREEing...

Subject: Such's post: From: Crispy To: la-ex Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:29:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for pointing this one out, la-ex. I had never read it before and indeed, what a great post it is (was). Thanks much, Such... Forgive me for re-posting your old wonders, but I also think it deserves a re-visit. Who knows, maybe some other newbie like myself will still benefit.... PS: Such's response is 'Tough, but True......' http://www.ex-premie3.org/archives/archive.cgi?arch=20010512b http://www.ex-premie3.org/archives/archive.cgi?arch=20010512b

Subject: and now for the link: ...! From: Crispy again To: Crispy Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:35:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: http://www.ex-premie3.org/archives/archive.cgi?arch=20010512b www.ex-premie3.org/archives/archive.cgi?arch=20010512b

Subject: Best of forum ever ? From: Jean-Michel To: Crispy again Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:56:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's already in the best of page Ending this ... Should we elect it for the Best of Forum Ever section ???

Subject: 'd say yes, here's why... From: la-ex To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 08:59:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think that the post from Sloeburn, with Such's reply, cover a great deal of ground....it crystallizes so much of what went wrong with the m movement, all of the hidden stuff we never knew, all of the ' cheat and deceipt', that so-called 'worldly' stuff that we thought we were getting out of by joining up with m....it is an incredible expose that if read by anyone, would certainly get them thinking twice about their involvement with m, and especially about giving paypal any more money to continue his abusive behavior with.... I think it is a great 'teaser', which would certainly encoruage any reader o go further and read more posts... I would vote for a 'best ever' category.....I would put Sloeburn, plus Such's reply only.... Stuff like this is what makes the epo site so potent, and really affects m's attempts to troll for converts...

Subject: Re: Best of forum ever ? From: Crispy To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 08:20:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bonjour, Jean-Michel. That's great that it's already in the Best Of page. As you can see, I still have much of the archives and Best Of's to catch up on, so I couldn't really pick it out yet as one of the 'limited select' or Best Of Ever. But this post certainly covers almost all of the crucial aspects so clearly - an exemplary summation.

Subject: More votes ? (nt) From: Jean-Michel To: Crispy Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 09:04:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll think about it .....

Subject: Scraping the bottom of the barrel?-ONN From: la-ex To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 07:51:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Has anyone read some of the ONN interviews over on LG? What continues to amaze me is how premies reach for superlatives t describe the k experience, and the more they do, the sillier it gets. For awhile, they all wanted to be poets, a la maharaji. Now its the superlatives, like 'subtle ad spectacular' at the same time....or peace can be 'rockin and rollin'...Joan A. calls it 'elegant'...another premie calle it 'exquisite'.... Isn't this all rather silly?....why not just say that once in awhile after hours of practicing ordinary techniques of meditation, your mind slows down bit, nd you feel a little bit different..a bit more peaceful?..... I think they come up with the superlatives to still convince themselves that it really is the 'knowldge of all knowledges' and that maharaji is 'you know who, giving you know what'.... Problem with this strategy is that while it keeps THEM beieving their own hype and away from confronting questions, it only looks stupid to potential new recruits, and quite disappointing to them if any one of them does get sucked in and tries the techniques... Isn't it interesting how the 'k experience' has gone from: 1)1970's-4 divine experiences within, with literal experiences of light brighter than a thousand suns, celestial harmonies,the cosmic primordal vibration, and an LSD-like mysterious nectar that was powerfully intoxicating.... 2)1980's-the zen like 'nothing experience',where maharaji would pride himself on getting people to realize that there was nothing inside, but peace....the 'nothingness' was it.. 3)1990'-poetic descriptions....a nice way to go when you realize apart from a few high experiences at festivals, most premies don't experience anything in meditation except for a little slowing of the mind....why not do poetry, no one can argue with it,and hey, it's YOUR own experience, right?...maybe m really is having an exerience like that, I guess I better keep on trying harder... 4)2000-Superlatives for the experience..kind of like poetry.... Isn't it interesting that no one EVER specifically says WHAT it is that they are experiencing, except that it's impossible to describe it?

Subject: Describing 'the experience' From: Inside Edition To: la-ex Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 21:19:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: la-ex, Apparently it is impossible to describe THE ULTIMATE FUCK-OVER while you are still in the middle of it. Once you get out of it, it's easy to describe, as we've certainly seen here. IE

Subject: Re: Scraping the bottom of the barrel?-ONN From: Livia To: la-ex Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 07:57:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm just waiting for a premie friend of mine to ex so that I can get her to admit that she was making it up when she said she saw Maharaji's face in meditation in her Knowledge session. Somehow I always felt she was bullshitting although I suppose you can't be sure. After all I once saw Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck in a mandala, clear as day, so I suppose anything's possible. It was 1975 at the time, so I guess that would tie in with your timescale thing above.. Did anybody here see ever Maharaji's face in meditation, out of interest? Love, Livia

Subject: Re: Scraping the bottom of the barrel?-ONN From: Jethro To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 21:30:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Livia, Many devotees of many 'gurus' have reported the same thing,ie they have seen the face of their master 'inside'. I am pretty sure that David Lane talks about this in his own research on all the Rahdasoami gurus. That's one of the things that used to really wind me up when I was propagating k. I used to meet with these devotees of false masters(ie anyone who wasn't m), who often came out with more cosmic stories than m. If you can get a devotee of saibaba to open up, they will tell you much more incredible stories than seeing sb inside. Charanand used to tell us that the highest vision a devotee could have is one of the holy golden lotus feet. I wonder if he is still peddling the same stuff or if new pwks are given this image. Cheers jethro

Subject: Seeing MJ's face From: Disculta To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 18:40:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I travelled with Mahatma Umesh Dhar around Spain in the seventies. He had a whole obsession with Jesus, and also said he had been seeing light with eyes open ever since a dramatic experience in which MJ appeared floating in light in his room during meditation. He taught that the 'real' meditation was to sit, eyes open, staring at a photo of MJ until he manifested. I did it for hours and hours, and it definitely put me in some wild places, but they were hypnotically induced by staring. And I didn't see his face inside. I heard reports at the time when Jagdeo was giving K that he told everyone they must see MJ's face in the light, then asked how many did, and it was a fair percentage. Hmmmm...

Subject: Mick Jagger's Faceof the barrel?-ONN From: Tim G To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 15:15:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, but there was a very earnest, serious, suited premie in Dublin who was jealous of all the reported sitings of m in meditation. After many arduous hours under the blanket the light formed and guess who materialised in it's midst? Mick Jagger.

Subject: Re: Scraping the bottom of the barrel?-ONN From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:06:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Liv thn premies greatest desire was to see M's face 'in the light', but the likelyhood of a self-created experience would sort of make a claim, well shakey. now if someone had k, saw M in the light but didn't know who it was 'cos they'd never seen a picture or had darshan, ( and I've heard of this stuff happening with gurus) then THAT I'd like to have explained by you keen metaphysicians out there in cyber-bliss!

Subject: Explanation From: Disculta To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 18:44:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't have an explanation, but such things definitely happened. I was in South America, touring around in 1975, and sometimes we would go to a new village and some person would show up who had had a vision of MJ prior to knowing he existed. Then he saw a flier or something and came to the ashram and recognized it. This happened more than once. Also, I have a friend who actually reads here and is an ex-instructor (and ex-premie) who had such an experience prior to Knowledge. His explanation is that cosmic things do happen, but that you still don't necessarily need to give your power away to them. They're not always the ultimate truth guiding your life. Love, a Keen Metaphysician

Subject: Baby's face archetype From: Jean-Michel To: Disculta Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 01:18:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I also have a theory. Rawat's face shape is very much baby-like of a certain type - round and symetrical, like the one they've used to advertise soap for decades, and other instances. I'm sure some people are facinated by that archetype. Believe it or not, there is a 'divine' baby-child master in east Africa some place, who has almost the same face as Rawat's. I don't recall his name, I've seen his picture on videos' covers somewhere in a shop.

Subject: Re: Baby's face archetype From: Lesley To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 01:50:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There's something in that. I saw the results of a study done on what made a face beautiful and symmetry was most important and for beautiful as opposed to handsome, wide cheekbones and rounded face.

Subject: Re: Scraping the bottom of the barrel?-ONN From: Vicki To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 08:41:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, but my neighbor upon seeing Maharaji for the first time in Long Beach, before receiving Knowledge, flipped because she had seen a vision as a child. She never knew what it was until seeing M onstage. It was one and the same. She's left anyway. After last year's Amaroo, she said he was too dark and something wasn't right.

Subject: Sort of like an Adult Santa? From: Gail To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 12:56:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Upon seeing Maharaji for the first time in Long Beach, before receiving Knowledge, my neighbour flipped because she had seen a vision as a child. She never knew what it was until seeing M onstage. It was one and the same. It probably triggered a feeling she had as a child and she transposed that feeling to the Lard. It might be likened to wanting Santa back after you know there's no such thing! Did anyone here have a Deja vu on the night our Lard danced late and our body heat vanquished the fog overhead [all night long hustle with our drunken Lard]? That could be attributed to heat stroke, lack of protein, or an interesting group-think phenomena. Who knows? It was a blast at the time, dancing with Krishna and all????????

Subject: hre' my take on that 'vision' thing From: la-ex To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:41:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If that is true, that your neighbor had a vision in childhood, and lo and behold, it later tuned out to be true, when she saw m, that it was one and the same person.... I think it has nothing to do wih m, but everything to do with HER... If the vision was correct, it simply was a preview for her of something she would be getting into later on in her life....the 'vision' had nothing to do with m 'giving' it to her, simply that it foreshadowed something that would happen to her....premies love to attribute these things to m, but isn't it really something that just happend to them? I have had lots of thse premonitions...many came true, but what I have learned is that just becaue I had the 'vision', it doesn't mean that it was all good....I used to think that because I had the vision, it had to be from some divine sorce, and was foretelling some wonderful exerience...experience caused me to temper that belief with the understanding that-1)the visions come to me, not from anyone else...2)the future experiences that they refer to are not always good or positive experiences-sometimes they are terrible experiences....the vision didn't put a judgement on the experience, I did...

Subject: Re: hre' my take on that 'vision' thing From: Vicki To: la-ex Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 13:10:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was definitely a vision, right down to the color of his tie, suit and stage. I don't know that she attributes it to M giving it to her, she just had it. What amazed me is she saw through it on her own, not like me who needed EPO. I always excused weirdness as not coming from him, but the premies. Should have known better.

Subject: Re: hre' my take on that 'vision' thing From: Crispy To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 12:35:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Re dreams as premonitions: Vicki and la-ex - interesting story and take. I find the whole subject interesting. Can't say I ever saw his (or anyone's) face in the light, but a few times (out of wanting) I would try to pick out his visage in some of the patterns of light. And some came pretty close, too. But my take is this was another form of ‘projection' or ‘reading' something that's going on in myself, like a conscious or subconscious desire, into something else unrelated. Have you ever noticed sometimes all of a sudden thinking you're seeing someone's face everywhere, or you frequently pick up on a similarity, or you see and hear the name everywhere. Is it that a cosmic message is trying to be sent to you, or is it just that because that person, or issue, is/has been currently prominent in your thoughts and emotions, that that's what you start to notice around you more than you normally would. It's not that the reminders weren't there before, but it's your Projection picking up on them more than usual (?) Another friend who majored in psych in university studied dream analysis. (All my friends seem to be psychs; another one did a thesis on cults!(*). (Excuse the Blow Hard Via Friend!). He said often the subject of our dreams are projections of something going on inside us. Similarly, how we look at others is often colored by our own emotions, hopes and expectations. Again, I never saw m's face in the light, but I often had darshan dreams. I'm leading into one in particular that I had at a time when I was starting to question the credibility of things like ‘grace', and ‘special personal messages'. In one of my favorite dreams, I was back in my home town, going into the empty church hall to practise the organ. Mj was there already, sitting up at the /organ in his dodhi whites, playing Bach's Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring so sweetly. Every phrase of it was filling me up with emotion. I awoke remembering all the details and feeling as if it were vivid and real. That same morning ascending the elevator to my office, Jesu Joy was playing over the Muzak system!! My tendency normally is to brush this off as meaning nothing. But I couldn't help but recall the emotion I felt in the dream, and tears welled. Even though to me it felt real, a real emotion, I think it was another example of the power of projection, and how people all too often mistake it as meaning something special by reading their desires into it. Telling this reminds me of a very different reaction I had upon actually seeing Mj play the keyboards at Amaroo last year. This time in reality, my reaction was not beautiful emotions. His very stagey presentation of his ordinary-talented, one-man concert only exposed his ''look-at-me-what-I-can-do'' colors, which soured the whole picture. The person in front of me was swaying in ecstacy, but I could not relate any more. I'd outgrown it. (And it's not jealousy speaking here, believe me.) Any more thoughts on this? Any more takes on projections, dreams, visions, etc? (*) PS: Re the person who had written a thesis on cults - her advice to me was to take the good I've learned from the cult and move on.

Subject: Re: hre' my take on that 'vision' thing From: Livia To: Crispy Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 16:35:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Something that springs to mind is the mass visions of those Catholics, when they all 'saw' the Virgin Mary's face manifest to them somewhere - I forget where, sorry to be so vague! It was either in Portugal or in Spain or it could even have been in South America, I really can't remember where. Anyway, it was a very well-documented occurence and those people were positive they saw the Virgin Mary's face appear to them. And what about all the 'occurences' of holes appearing in peoples' hands and blood flowing from them? People would swear that these things actually happened, just as premies would, and do. It must have an awful lot to do with intense focus and desire, although the neurological explanations are unclear. The point is, though, that they are no way peculiar to premies, thereby negating any proof of anything as far as premies are concerned. Love, Livia

Subject: Coincidence From: PatD To: Crispy Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 14:25:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Happens all the time, but there is no meaning to it.(or at least none which is accessible) Just last week I was reading a book when my 7yr old daughter burst in through the door from school. She was singing dooby doo dah ,dooby doo dah,at the exact moment that I was reading this line : 'the hills of the northern edge supply three underground rivers in the area known as Dobe-/Du/da after the names of two permanent waterholes'. For sure there's more to heaven & earth & all that, but Rawat remains forever a low life regardless of the signs & portents. Up against the wall motherfucker.(Rawat,not you)

Subject: Could be..... (OT a bit) From: Crispy To: PatD Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 08:11:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Could be these phenomena happen a lot. Hi Livia, I also vaguely remember hearing about that somewhere. The first flash questions I had 'Were they all Catholics?' 'How come we never hear about the Virgin Mary appearing to Buddhists monks (for example)?' The Virgin Mary would also know that her son, Christ, hated established religions and never intended to start another, namely Christianity. So why would she be partial to showing herself to Catholics? Which is why, again, I tend to lean to the explanation of 'projection of one's desires'. Could that have been an example of mass projection? And hey there PatD. Also my brother and I would be amazingly 'in tune' to each other's thoughts when we were younger (not so much now). We'd often have the same concurrent reactions/thoughts and could often guess each other's next game moves. We tested ourselves once with a 3rd person who asked us to think of a color, tell it to only him, and we'd nail the same color most of the time. I thought maybe we might have the same genetic map in our brains?! And yes, of course these phenomena are not exclusive to premies. But there's a bit of the doubting Thomas in me. I mostly take such unexplainable visions or messages with a few grains of salt - 'Hm, interesting, maybe, but wait and see what time reveals'. On the other hand, intuition is something else though that I do think is underrated. I don't mean to go off on an OT sideline subject here that I know squat about, but to bring it back, something has to be said for wariness of projecting one's hopes onto someone/something else, especially onto such a powerful, charismatic character as Maharaji! In a sense, our projection onto him has actually fed that power, and very mistakenly so, as we've seen how he has taken that power and corrupted it on such an immense scale. And Lesley, if Mj's face ever appears to you now, just stick up your middle finger at it and keep on walking! :) This reminds me of a Woody Allen short (Oedipus Wrecks, from New York Stories), where his mother's face is permanently fixed in the sky above Manhattan, yakking away verbal abuses to Woody. Cheers to y'all, Crispy

Subject: I once saw his face in the clouds From: Lesley To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 15:17:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How interesting, it makes me wonder if emotional cognition isn't a bit of a two way street of time and feeling, particularly if the emotion being triggered is from a time of infancy. Maybe deja vu comes from this happening at a closer remove, and visions at a further remove, timewise. From what I understand the workings of our memories is quite complex, and it is occurring to me that your friend's memory of her vision is a potent feeling from the past being triggered and producing a memory with visual details that are coming from the present, like the way a computer will complete the image with the best it can come up with if you try and make it print at 300 pixels an inch when it only has 72 pixels per inch of information in store. When Rawat gets up on stage and presents himself as our father, and the audience believes him, the lie that is happening presents our cognitive abilities with a conundrum we do attempt to resolve. Wotcha reckon?

Subject: Even once is too much [nt] From: bill To: Lesley Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 16:40:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yes, I agree From: Lesley To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 00:50:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had attended a satsang a year previously in Brighton, 1972, where I was reliably informed that Guru Maharaji's Knowledge was the pearl within the oyster of this world. I had been given a leaflet in the street, and my guess is I might have seen that poster that was around in 1973, with blue sky and clouds and a rainbow, my vision bore a striking resemblance to it. Oh yes, and I was coming down from an acid trip..........anyway it wasn't too much later that I was sitting at the feet of Mahatma Adharanand poking my fingers in my face.

Subject: Lesley, your post has a life of its own. From: Richard To: bill Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 18:49:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your subject "I once saw his face in..." appears to have cloned itself. I tried to post after yours but that phrase appears in multiple after my post. Weird.

Subject: Lesley, your post has a life of its own. From: Richard - 2nd try To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 19:02:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (Couldn't edit my above post) Your subject 'I once saw his face in...' appears to have cloned itself. I tried to post after yours but that phrase appears in multiple at the end of the thread. Weird.

Subject: weird is right From: Lesley To: Richard - 2nd try Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 00:33:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I opened my post just now and it seems normal, huh?

Subject: Re: weird is right From: PatC To: Lesley Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 01:17:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now, look what you've done, Lesley. I take one day off and you've made the forum all trippy. :P

Subject: Hey, wow, cosmic!!!! [nt] From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 04:10:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Oh, it's gone. [nt] From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 16:37:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thank the invisible elves From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 17:43:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I got rid of it because it took up so much space.

Subject: To John in Pasadena From: Will To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 07:21:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please email me at willwilliams38@hotmail.com Thanks.

Subject: The more I see of premies... From: Bryn To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 05:43:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..(and I am perfectly aware that they are not to be called premies anymore), the more I realise what the main event is. It is the Clark Kent syndrome. Beneath my ordinary exterior, I am the possesser of the secret insight. I carry the real thing. Others believe, but I know. And the root of my wisdom is my recognition and acknowledgement of the subtle and secret guidance of....The One.(Him) So I am a channel to the others, to ...The One, to themselves. I am special.I must be responsible and true. Holy Shit! The above is totally discernable, and based on recent observation (admittedly only of males). Oh premies premies, give it a rest will ya! Also: When talking to a prem who has just heard of your treason,heresy and dereliction of duty, you only have a one sentence window of opportunity in which to put the case for your defence. After that the nodding and pitying 'uh-huh-ing' cuts in. It has to be a short sentence too. The one liner I have evolved goes : 'Yes well Maharaji turned out to be a myth.' Its neutral, over before it's started, off-balancing, monosyllabic and effective. I recommend it. Love to all Bryn

Subject: Superfeet From: Scott T. To: Bryn Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 12:58:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reminds me of the 'Superfeet motto: 'Hidden Power!' I got a nice hat from them once.

Subject: Yeah, thats it.'hidden power'nt From: Bryn To: Scott T. Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 01:52:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The more I see of premies... From: Loaf To: Bryn Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 06:18:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hello BD My line is 'if maharaji knocked on my door right now, I would call the police' Its such a massive tabloid shift that they laugh... and say 'Really ???' I suppose it gets their attention.

Subject: Really? From: Disculta To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 02:56:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean, I think it's a great line, and I wish I had someone to use it on, but would you really, Loaf?

Subject: Re: Really? From: Loaf To: Disculta Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 03:15:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: almost definitely not. It all depends on how cute he looked. IF he looked like a large aggressive speckled toad I would probably be more hostile towards him than if he turned up all humble and said 'I want to be completely open with the world, and to expose my innermost psychology and vulnerabilities - would you make a documentary programme about the entire process and film my psychotherapy sessions.. here is a million dollar budget but you have entire editorial control... and here is the remainder of my estate (retaining a modest sum for personal income) for the establishing of a trust fund for people who have been damaged in cults or directly through my behaviour' I think then I would put the kettle on and make him a cup of tea.

Subject: Ahhh From: Disculta To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 21:20:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for clearing that up, Loafji. He'd probably prefer cognac to tea. Take care mate.

Subject: The only site for both premies & exes From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:05:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There's some new posts there which may interest you. (Click on the above link) The Great Worldwide Linkup www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/8154/

Subject: Re: The only site for both premies & exes From: King David To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:31:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's fabulous SD. A lovely practical and friendly operation. One thing that struck me as particularly wonderful was that 90% of the posts were from beautiful premies looking for old and cherished friends or those trying to get back in touch with the, well, whatever it is that we guys do at gatherings. I was tempted to immediately write to all the 'premies please contact me' posters but then realised that if they REALLY want to get back in touch - then the grace will automatically facilitate that eventuality, as it did with all of us in those wonderful old halcyon days of yore. :)

Subject: Re: Pams as friends From: Jethro to LOAF et al To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 00:31:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf says about Peter Lee in a thread below “He never has asked how I am since. None of the Premies who were aware that I was having a bad time have EVER asked how I am doing. “ Pams’ and wanna-be-a-pam-again types lives are a breed of their own. I didn’t know Peter Lee. I only met him once when he came to stay at my ashram(Stockwell, Sth London). He was off on some mission for m with another premie. I did give them a block of Toblerone as a gift for their journey which was accepted…..but they did not utter any words such as ‘thank you’, because they knew(like I did) that the chocolate was really from m. Does anyone remember when Bob Heywood crashed a vehicle he was driving in the way to a festival? Bob ended up in hospital for several months and had serious head(brain?) surgery. I think he was unconscious for several months and was certainly near death. Anyway, Ron Geaves was in that vehicle (he was unhurt) and when I asked him what he did after the crash, he said that he brushed himself down and went onto the airport to go see M. No mention or concern for the others. In fact, he gave me the impression that he didn’t even make a phone call to an ambulance. He didn’t even mention Bob. (A bit like the story of m breaking Gary Gerrard's nose) When Bob spoke to me about the accident and the months following, he told me that he spent all t he time with M(internally) and that he loved his relgion with his satguru. I think this disease is called Narcisssim. Jethro

Subject: Ron Geaves Cruelty From: Loaf To: Jethro to LOAF et al Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:33:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ron's heartlessness was learned by example. He told me a story of when he was at the residence with M in Rome in the mid 70s. There was a 'long standing joke' with M about Ron's inability to drive. One day Marolyns parents and other people were coming to the res and a huge picnic had been prepared and put on a golf buggy to be driven down to the beach nearby. Ron thought it would make M laugh if HE arrived driving the buggy... so he started to drive it... and tipped it over into a ditch. M apparantly rushed up and asked Ron (who was feeling VERY guilty) 'Are you OK ?' Ron's heart burst with gratitude that M would be concerned about Him and not the food 'Yes Mahraji, thankyou' M replied : 'Pity, I wish you'd broken your fucking neck!' and marched off. (A good answer I think !) BUT the cruelty came over the following weeks when Ron found himself shunned by the PAMs and fallen out of favour. Nobody would speak to him any more. He said it hurt, but showed what Premie friends were all about. Cruelty it seems and self interest are learned by the company we keep.

Subject: Fits well with my abuse theory From: Jean-Michel To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 02:45:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Deception being at the core of it, to be able to 'climb' the ladder of Rawatism's hierarchy, you need to have a wide tolerance to abuse, as a potential victim, or as an abuser. There may be some exceptions - some people Rawat maybe respects - for intellectual, financial reasons or possible blackmail. Maybe he's a bit more cautious with them, out of interest.

Subject: Re the abuse thing From: Disculta To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 04:32:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anyone know the details of the social science experiment where people were easily made to give other people painful electric shocks. As I remember it, there were a group of students who were on one side of the glass, operating some kind of electric shock system, perhaps in answer to right or wrong answers from the people on the other side of the glass. The experimenters instructed the subjects to shock the people on the other side, which they did. Actually, they didn't - the ones on the other side were in on it, and they acted as though they were in agony. The real experiment was to see if the people giving the shock would override their own natural response to people in pain when told to do so by an authority. This experiment, which I may have gotten a bit wrong, is often cited as an explanation about the concentration camps and a proof of the incredible power of authoritarianism. I am amazed at the abuses I suffered and perpetrated when I was a premie, especially in the ashram. Once, when I was in the ashram in Spain, and I was the coordinator, there was someone who wanted to join. I told her she couldn't wear make-up (it was in the manual). She was really pissed off and went back to the Yogananda scene she had been in before. I remember her ranting about our obsession with a little thing like lipstick, and thinking 'it's her that's obsessed.' Har har. You should see the glossy lips on me now! love to all

Subject: That experiment From: Joy To: Disculta Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 00:40:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Katie! The experiment you're referring to was done in 1963 by Stanley Milgram, and is a very famous one, along with the Stanford Prison Experiment, in which volunteer men were locked up (chosen for their peaceful political views!) and some got to play prisoner and others the guards; in this one the guards ended up exhibiting extreme cruelty. I've seen actual video footage of the Milgram experiment and it is very chilling — a man administers what appears to be a fatal dose of electricity to someone just because he is told by the experimenter to do so. You watch him wrestle with his conscience and then go ahead and do it. Goes to show how easily the human mind is controlled and manipulated. (I learned all this from my Open Univ. psychology course!) Gee, borderline sounds like me! When I was a young child and would get fed up with my mother nagging me, I would say to her (in all seriousness): 'You go away . . . . . me come wiff you!' In other words, get lost, but not just yet. I also think it was my desire to participate in any adventure that may be on the go, and the prospect of her going off somewhere interesting was too good to pass up without wanting some of the fun. Hope you're well, glad to see you're on F7 in the middle of the night. Did you see any of the Queen's jubilee celebrations on TV? Quite something. Lotsa luv, Joy

Subject: Re: Fits well with my abuse theory From: Livia To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 04:27:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The name Joan Apter springs to mind. I've heard that she somehow manages to have quite a tempestuous relationship with him, in that she speaks her mind (up to a point) and argues with him on certain issues, and he apparently respects her for this. Or so I've heard. It ties up with the idea of him being basically a bully. Bullies only respect people who stand up to them - no one else, and I mean no one. Having read a lot of stuff about narcissism over the last day or so I'm coming to the conclusion that M could indeed be an extreme narcissist. One of the sites I posted a link to down below (the 2nd one) comes out with an interesting theory that people become narcissists as a result of having never really been listened to or recognised as an individual in childhood. They then spend their whole lives looking for this recogntion. Now in Maharaji's case obviously it's a whole other ballgame as he was brought up in an extraordinary situation with a father who probably had very little time for him in a practical sense apart from anything else, plus a lot of other people around projecting all this stuff onto him, including own his mother and all his brothers! What happened to the real Prem Pal the child in all of this, one can't help wondering. I mean, what sort of childhood was that! Well, obviously not deprived in a material sense, but did he ever get the individuation we all need? Undoubtedly not. A bit like being brought up as a prince and then being thrust into kinghood part-time at the age of 8 and fulltime at the age of 13. No wonder a part of him has never really grown up. No wonder he's a bully. No wonder he drinks. No wonder any of it, really, when you think about it. And us? Well they say narcissists are drawn to narcissists and while I wouldn't dream of speaking for all of us here, as there are probably as many reasons for being drawn to M and k as there are premies - there are probably a few narcissists amongst the premies too. People afraid of genuine intimacy - hence the scores of dysfunctional relationships and disproportionate numbers of broken marriages. People with a need to feel superior - 'I have the Knowledge and you don't!' People with a desperate need to be loved, hence the extraordinary almost masochistic suffering of some of the PAMs - I could go on and on. Love Livia

Subject: Narcissists From: Disculta To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 04:40:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, You said 'they say narcissists are drawn to narcissists.' The way I've heard it, a more common ghastly enmeshment is that borderlines are drawn to narcissists. There's a whole book about it which I haven't read. There were (are?) definitely quite a few people who would be classifed as 'borderline' or at least 'borderline borderline' ;–) especially among the very devoted. There was an article in Psychology Today last year suggesting that everyone has a small dose of the various categories of mental illness defined by the D.S.M.V. or whatever it's called (basically the Psychiatrists' Desk Reference). I think it's pretty interesting to read and check out what all your friends are (heh heh). I found I was in most categories, actually , in homeopathic doses, so to speak. Anyway, borderline is a VERY interesting category. One way of sound-byting it is that a borderline is a person who says or acts like 'I hate you, don't leave me!' Ever felt that way towards MJ? love to all

Subject: Re: Personality Disorders From: Livia To: Disculta Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 04:50:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Disculta, all very interesting. Apparently there are about 10 main 'personality disorders' - all listed in a big fat book whose name I forget - 'twould be an interesting read for sure! The theory goes that we all have bits of most or all of them to some degree, it's when one (or two or more!) predominate to an extreme degreee that you're in trouble and may need therapy or whtever to try and sort it out if you want to function without messing your life up. Are you saying, then, that 'borderline narcissists' can get worse if they attach themselves to a narcissist? Arrgh!! By the way, do you live in England? If so it would be nice to meet/talk. I always find what you have to say on psychological stuff very interesting! Please email me if you have time: liviadowte@hotmail.com Love, Livia

Subject: Re: Personality Disorders From: Disculta To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 05:06:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, No I don't live in England, although I was born there. I'm in California, up with insomnia in the middle of the night, at the same time you are posting, doing my occasional 4 am forum visit. There's a category called Borderline Personality Disorder that is almost the opposite of Narcissistic P.D. These two opposites sometimes attract each other in relationship. I've had borderline clients and friends, without knowing about the categorization, and it helped a lot to learn about it, even though I used to be strongly against all categories. One of the things a therapist friend told me about 'borderlines' is that they are the ones whose THERAPISTS commit suicide (rather than being suicide risks themselves). It's a sort of joke, but only sort of. I've experienced certain borderline people as having a refusal to take any responsibility for their own actions or feelings, and a high level of skill at manipulating others to take care of them. If you say no to a borderline, they may freak out and attack and blame you. If you say yes, they can make you feel useless. I can imagine how the dependence pattern might interface in some cases with a narcissist who says he's God and the only one who can really take care of you. If I come to the UK this year I will post something on F7 and see if I can get together with you and others. love ktd

Subject: Re: Personality Disorders From: Vicki To: Disculta Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 08:34:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This brings up some very interesting questions. Let's speculate for an instant that Maharaji being the youngest son, was babied but not particularly taken interest in, what with all Shri Hans travels and Mata's other interests. So there he is, this little tyke, with not an average IQ, and he sees who gets the attention. Children are very savy about who gets attention. He wasn't the designated one. The oldest brother in the Indian culture is the big cheese. So the passing of Shri Hans happens and there is chaos. Little Sant Ji sees an opportunity for the ultimate attention. He says he heard 'voices', there was supposedly a letter from Shri Hans that is any one's guess if it really existed. And then the rest is history. He's 'divine' until the split. How can one be the Lord and then not?[

Subject: Excuse me Neville. From: Beragon Ki Jai To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 21:59:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are you the chap that I spoke to at the recent program at Amaroo.I came up to you on the last night of the event and said hello to you.I told you that i had been an ex premie,then a premie again,then an ex again and now I had returned to the fold again.I am obviously quite fickle. Cheers Beragon KI Jai.

Subject: The ex with a sign out front? From: Tonette To: Beragon Ki Jai Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 00:47:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are you talking about the Neville who was protesting M's last event by holding a sign right outside the gate of Amaroo? The sign said something to the effect Maharaji had boken his heart. Is that the Neville you mean? Because I think there are several Neville's here. Let me know. Ta for now, Tonette

Subject: Re: Excuse me Neville. From: Gail To: Beragon Ki Jai Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 20:44:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow! Many cult members join another cult to fill the void. You are a rare bird! Good luck to you!

Subject: Re: Excuse me Neville. From: Barogon Ki Jai To: Gail Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 22:19:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you Gail.

Subject: Deception causes pain From: oldRichard To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 07:06:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I used to post here some years ago at the outset of my 'coming out' as Richard but I am happy to settle for oldRichard. I am moved to post again by the poignancy of Bai Ji's recent communications. I too, more than anything, wanted to serve my 'Lord' and to have the privelige of being with the Master. You can say what you like but that was what I signed-up for and I gave my all for nearly 20 years. Never, in all that time, was I disabused of the notion that my devotion was misplaced. Never, in all that time, was it ever suggested that I was psycho or had missed the point. NOW, however, it seems that I was wrong. In conversation with premies, it turns out that it was me who got it so badly wrong in thinking that M was anything other than a motivational speaker. When I suggested that I actually signed up for 'devotion to the living incarnation of God, there was a faintly embarrassed silence. This denial of events is, I suggest, the source of much pain. Bai Ji, I received knowledge from you in North London in 1971/2 and, despite everything, the day remains engraved on my mind. Your gentleness, kindness and devotion inspired me more than anything. The fact that we were both conned hurts me still and I will have to live with that. But what hurts me more is that old friends who went through the same time with me now want to re-write history and say that it was never so. Thanks for everything Bai Ji and especially for reminding me of my aspirations. Love oldRichard

Subject: Re: Deception causes pain From: Bai Ji To: oldRichard Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 16:30:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank You Dear old Richard for your kind words. I am not the Bai Ji you received the Knowledge of all Knowledges from. Or the Bai Ji that lives with and cooks for M. I was always a Bai Ji in my own heart and hence my Forum nom de plume. Non of this detracts from the feelings of betrayal that I feel. Where is He now in my deepezt darkest hour? Take Care OR XXX

Subject: Name Confusion #42 - Bai Ji From: JHB To: oldRichard Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:21:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, Welcome back. I haven't spoken to premies for a long time apart from on forums, so I am genuinely surprised that they deny the devotional days. I wonder if they are just trying to say what they believe they are supposed to say? BTW, I don't think Bai Ji was ever someone who taught the techniques of knowledge. I think it's just her pseudonym here. John.

Subject: He's thinking of Prakash Bai maybe..... From: PatD To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 12:47:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......a much older than average mahatma.I never knew then that her dressing all in white meant that she was a widow. Looking back she certainly seemed to have 'it' in a less dangerous form than the others. What I mean is,the milk of human kindness was there. Probably dead now.

Subject: Prakash Bai Ji From: Sir Dave To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 18:18:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Prakash Bai Ji (who gave me knowledge) left Maharaji, I think in the seventies and as far as I know, returned to India guruless. Since I was only nineteen when she gave me knowledge, she may have been younger than I thought then, maybe just in her thirties or early forties. She could still be alive now, somewhere in India. Since I received knowledge from a Mahatma who left Maha, maybe I never really officially received it. She did say at the time that the techniques were all to be found in books.

Subject: Re: Ashokanand Ji From: Livia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 03:45:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh dear, maybe I never received it either! Ashokanand showed us excerpts from Zen Flesh Zen Bones describing the techniques, as part and parcel of the Knowledge session. He then went off with Bal Bhagwan Ji two or three years later and then tried to convert us away from Maharaji! Hey maybe none of us exes here ever really received Knowledge! How many of us received it from a mahatama who then went manmat? Love Livia

Subject: Hmmmmm... From: Marshall To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 14:12:25 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: I think you may be on to something here Livia. I 'got' knowledge (self-knowledge?), from the worst of the lot, Jagdeo! Yuck! I don't remember much about it. As I've mentioned before, it was probably lucky for me that I am a boy, since Jagdeo doesn't seem to like raping little boys, just little girls.

Subject: Or what about Fakiranand - any takers? [nt] From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 07:34:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I was nailed by Fakiranand From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 09:42:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pun quite intended. After all, Fakiranand certainly hammered satsang home. I kind of admired Fakiranand for his intensity - up to a point. After all, it was passion and intensity that I was after. No light-weight namby pamby Jesus on the cross religion for me. No way. Squeeze my eyeballs, Mahatma Ji oh great soul, and show me the light brighter than a thousand suns and I'll be willing to cut my head off if that's what GMJ asked of me. Fair exchange for the K of all K's. Really a shame his master didn't cool F's jets a bit and tone down the zealotry. It's a tragedy that he thought he was doing what his lord would have wanted when he tried to murder Pat Halley (or far worse, just following GMJ's or RJ's agya). Silly mahatma ji for taking all of GMJ's hyperbolic rhetoric literally. No wonder M wants to conveniently ignore his flamboyant past if it includes such colorful characters of his own creation like the Beggar of Bliss.

Subject: Me - Mohani Bai,she walked too [nt] From: PatD To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 09:19:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Prakash Bai Ji From: Richard To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 20:00:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Prakash Bai is the mother of 3 premies: Sunanda, Jumna and Sushiel. Some time in the late 70's she was re-married to a younger premie named Curt and they were living in Miami. I may be inaccurate on the details but Joy or others may know for sure. Wonderful to think she may have found a life beyond M.

Subject: Re: Deception causes pain From: Richard To: oldRichard Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:13:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good to see you again oldRichard. I suppose you could also be considered Richard the First! I was Postie for awhile and finally came out of the fog as Richard a year ago March. There was another Richard posting for awhile who is a premie. He chose R2 as his nom de forum after my understandable objection. Funny how we got it wrong all that time, eh? What the hell were we thinking when we imagined GMJ wanted to be worshiped as the Ultimundo God in a Bod? I guess it was all those magic mushrooms and/or reading Be Here Now that made us soooo confused. :) I hear strength in your words and a nod to the beauty and intensity we brought to the party 30 years ago. Overcoming the deception and pain allows us to see that our passions are still alive and it's great to share them. On we go, Richard - who was Postie and now I'm glad to have a brother named Richard

Subject: We've all been abused by the maha From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 05:09:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 6 months ago I’ve got news from a French fence-sitter that was reading EPO like mad. I remember him quite well, as he was a part of my worst memories of the old DLM time. He had been seriously abused by me – I’m going to tell you how – and he was still very much resenting what happened. I was quite glad to get news from him (even though I was quite embarrassed because of my role in what happened to him), we talked about various issues, and we had a long exchange on what happened on that day where I threw him out of the ashram, acting on behalf of the French NC of that time, namely Charles S. I didn’t throw him out physically, but verbally signified him that he had to leave on the spot, and I guess I used very strong words to make him understand he had no option. The poor guy had no place to go, he was probably broke. You can imagine his situation. And I remember my feeling that day : I was doing this against my feelings, feeling very bad about it, finding all the excuses - I was on some ‘divine mission’, doing this for M etc. I wasn’t myself in the ashram anymore at that time (some time around 1982-1983), but I was involved as an assistant of the NC, helping for various tasks. I guess the poor guy wasn’t wanted anymore in the ashram for some reason I don’t know, and the NC didn’t have the guts to do the job himself. And honestly that was my worst memory of that time. Like one bad thing you did once in your life, and feeling bad about it all your life every time you think about it. I thought the issue was over now, and didn’t think much about it since. But I got news from him recently, through a common friend, and started thinking again about that event that happened about 20 years ago. How come that I got to do something I hated AGAINST my own feelings, and then felt good about it, with some guilt feelings, and considering I did something bad on that day – with the excuse I did it ‘for M’, that was ‘service’ etc ? And finally it downed on my : I’ve been abused. I did something against my feelings, with NO (human) consciousness at all …. How come I did this ? ? ? ? ? How is it possible, that in the name of ‘service’ for the highest cause, you get to abuse someone else against your own feelings (I don’t doubt there are some people doing that kind of thing and have pleasure doing it – this was NOT and is NOT my case) ? Now this is something what took me a long time to understand. We do have a consciousness, we do have an ethic, we do have values, there are things we like and things we don’t like, things we want to accomplish in our lives etc. And what happens when you get the supreme k – the k of all knowledges – even before as a matter of fact, you get programmed in that mode whilst you’re an aspirant – or you never get the ‘knowledge’ ? You learn that consciousness is the feeling you get through the experience of meditation – satchitanand , bliss or whatever you call it, that you have to let your feelings aside to be able to ‘serve’ your master, that you have to empty your bucket in order to get the experience you’re running after, and you finally enjoy being a brainless ‘servant’, ‘student’ or a synchronized team member of the so-called ‘master’. You REPLACE your human consciousness with nothingness. Serving the ‘master’ becomes your criteria, in order to ‘experience’ that so-called ‘knowledge’. And this is when you become an abuser in a system where everybody is abusing everybody. There are all sorts of abuses you’re a part of. The most innocent ones, and the worst ones. This is the name of the game. The most innocent ones : giving or getting money for M’s (or EV’s) needs – whatever they may be – when you know they really don’t need it. Organizing the beautiful video or special events where nothing is going to happen, where other abusers are going to read their scripts and so on. You know it, you don’t like it, but you still do it in spite of your feelings. When you listen to people and the master talking about things they don’t know, and you hate listening to such stupid things. When you’re persuaded to do things you don’t like, and still do it in the name of ‘service’. This IS abuse, you’re abusing people at every level, and you’re being abused at every level. I guess you can list lots of other abuse situations you’ve been involved in. Countless I guess. The worst ones : forcing premies or aspirants to do things you don’t like and they don’t like, against everybody’s feelings. This IS ABUSE. And I guess you can list lots of other abuse situations you’ve been a part of. You KNOW it, you still do it or did it, YOU’RE ABUSING PEOPLE – or you’ve been abusing people, YOU ARE ABUSED or you’ve been abused. It took me about 5 years to understand the process that’s been at work in me since I’ve been involved in the maha’s ‘knowledge’. And this clearly an abuse process. Replace consciousness by the Rev. Rawat’s knowledge, and you’re ready for any abuse. He thrives on this.

Subject: good post JM [nt] From: bill To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 16:41:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: We've all been abused by the maha From: Vicki To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 09:16:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Isn't it interesting that ex'es feel guilt about the inhumane treatment while, those still in not only do not feel guilt, but still perpetuate to an even greater degree more devestating abuse?

Subject: Re: then I'm proud to say: From: janet To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 06:28:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: thinking on your clear definition of things you did in the name of service, against your own feelings and ethics, by that definition, I am proud to say that the one time I was handed a bona fide service from IHQ, after guru pujha amherst--to run the Shelter at 1607 Race St in Denver until a new housemother and housefather could be found to step into the shoes of Bill Snow and Annie, who were both struck down by physical impairments after the festival and couldnt return to denver until they were well-- by your definition JM, I accepted the assignemnt of service when asked to, but I made irrevocably sure I did not perpetrate the pattern of abuse i had witnessed in the ashrams already. I did away with the chore roster and the assigned duty sheet. I told everyone to do whatever they saw about them that needed doing, and to do it as they felt it should be done. Everything was volunteer, and only to be undertaken if you wanted to and were moved to do it as a labor of love. And that place shone, for the time i was the head of things. Someone hand carved a sign for the lawn. someone else dug and planted a garden of veggies. every day a different cluster of friends wanted to make breakfast of lunch or dinner for the whole house. some industrious fellow cleaned out the basement and set up a complete workshop, all organized and inventoried, and whatever needed fixed, he took in and turned back out good as new. I never had to tell anyone to do anything. People just saw something and did it, of their own impulse and did it beautifully. I really was disappointed when they finally sent elliot brye down to take over in september. She had to do it the Official Way, and the list went back up and the doleful Order was reinstated, and I was summarily told to leave. Used up like toilet pap then cast off as trash. And before i left, i found Elliot sweeping the stairs one afternoon, obviously not happy and seeming to be wrestling with herself about something inwardly, and i stopped to ask her what it was. I had some of the highest, best moments of m life in Knowledge during that period of running the Shelter, and her sadness and wistfulness seemed odd. I wuld have only been too pleased to keep the job for her, and let her go do what would have made her happy, if i could have been permitted. But she sighed and resolutely turned back to her sweeping, as if it was a sentence she must serve out, and she gave me some thin speech, more to convince herself than me, about how the answer to whatever bothered her must be in either ssatsang, service or meditation, so she was trying each one in turn, until she found what worked. I thought that was a pathetic response to whatever it was that was troubling her, but after all, according to the Official Dictum, I was no longer welcome anymore, and was to be getting on out the door. so I left her to her sweeping and headed on out to my next bizarre chapter in DLM. it felt a little like 'see here, now--you people are having too much fun at this. we can't be having that. you need to suffer more and experience more pain, so you will surrender. we cant be having all this love and radiance and good cheer. back to work! eebee saYS SHE WAS THERE THEN. MAYBE SHE CAN CORROBORATE WHAT IT WAS LIKE BEING THERE UNDER MY 'REIGN'. i thought it was pretty good. but I'm only one person. i would welcome another perpective from anyone who was there during the same time, to see if I'be got it skewed or pretty much acurate. it was great, once the control freak attitude was removed from the picture.

Subject: oh yes, we are such poooor saps, pity on us please From: trollanand To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:52:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thanks trollanand you give From: Jethro To: trollanand Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 03:01:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: us the perfect demonstration in premie courage. It is called 'hit and run' taught to you by your master.

Subject: and the webmaster.. From: trollo To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 02:48:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: gives an example of exes courage..I am amazed my above post was NOT deleted...right on, chaps!!!

Subject: Hey look at it this way, From: Tonette To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 20:07:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your point is right on the money about the abuse process that is immeshed in and a part of Maharaji's cult and Maharaji. What a fascinating way to look at it. However, perhaps what happened with the scene you outlined above; throwing this guy out of the ashram, was not in fact abuse, did you ever consider that perhaps, you did him a favor? I wouldn't beat myself up over it. It's not like you murdered someone or raped children. But it is so true when you write, 'you REPLACE your human consciousness with nothingness. Serving the ‘master’ becomes your criteria, in order to ‘experience’ that so-called ‘knowledge’. And this is when you become an abuser in a system where everybody is abusing everybody. There are all sorts of abuses you’re a part of. The most innocent ones, and the worst ones. This is the name of the game.' You are absolutely right. I had never quite thought of it in this way. Kinda reminds me of the 'grace race' to be in M's limelight or to appear as a worthy devotee. Oh some of the stuff that went down! I remember being given 2 weeks notice that my husband and I had to move out of a basement apartment we were renting from a premie couple. They sold their house, packed their things and told us to move. I thought gee, this is kinda sudden, thanks for the notice. Why are you moving to Florida all of a sudden. Ah, well, we're going for service. Oh really, what are you going to be doing? Ummmmm, can't tell you, it's a secret. Oh. Well, nice knowing you and what a great friend you've been, NOT! How about the welfare mother who sent in a chunk of her monthly welfare money to her lord. The abusive thing about this was, she had a 2 year old girl who needed food, clothes and medical care. You had parents abusing their own children and not even realizing it! Fondly, Tonette

Subject: We've all done things.... From: PatD To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 14:02:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......we aren't proud of,& by'we'I mean everyone alive who has ever thought about how to live 'righteously', but realises eventually that it's a losing battle....perfection in human affairs isn't possible...the best one can do is to be on guard. Rawat's terrible & unforgiveable lie is that he can shortcircuit the human condition.That through his mere existence it's possible to have human relationships,touched with divine love,where shit doesn't happen. My old mother told me he was the anti-christ 30 yrs ago,& whilst I don't go with that particular view of the world,I can now see what she was getting at. The man is a prostitute: 'power without responsibilty,the prerogative of the harlot down the ages'. It's not that you had to fuck someone over in his service is the awful thing,but that being in his service was supposed to put a stop to people being fucked over. I wish I hadn't found moral philosophy such a boring subject when I was 19. He,or anyone like him ever seduces my children,I don't give a fuck,I'll swing.

Subject: Yes, it's ironic From: Tonette To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 07:59:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What you wrote: 'It's not that you had to fuck someone over in his service is the awful thing,but that being in his service was supposed to put a stop to people being fucked over' When I first got into K it really was a unity of people, thru an expression of love that originated from 'within' thru the techniques of meditation. Oh how it was! Unity, compassion, elevation, purpose. But that asshole M trashed it! He really did. He took the dedication, intellect, and spirit of all who wanted to live this reality and twisted it into an utterly hideous cult. Can you imagine, minus the megalomania imposed by M, what all of us could of really done? What we would be like now? How we would of bettered ourselves and the world? The talent, the intent, and resources were all there. What a waste. What an incrediably sad story. It's tragic. We got fucked, we became somewhat unkind to each other thru his direction and management, the potential and what we were becoming was stopped. Why? M never realized the real wealth he had you see. He quickly grew tired of us and all that we offered and focused on the almighty buck. He continues to do so to this day. I'm sorry to use the F word but it escapes me what word would be a more concise summary. That really hit home for me Pat what you wrote. How true it is. Actually, it made me cry. The loss. The waste. And I'm with you, if anyone harms a hair on my children's head you had better watch out. You'll have me to contend with. I don't imagine anyone would mess with my 6'4', 245lb lineman son at age 17 unless they were crazy. My daughter however, that's a different story. She's eleven. I would do more than swing and I would get away with it. BTW, your mother was right. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: Re: We've all done things.... From: Cynthia To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 17:13:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not proud of behaving in a superior way to premies who 'didn't get to' be around M. I was a pretty strict church lady while in the ashram. I put people off with my 'from the mount satsang' which was condescending to those who weren't in the ashram for whatever reason. None of my beeswax. But that didn't stop me. Oh no. I talked... I also stole money from the community fund when I was assistant community coordinator in Gainesville, FL. I must confess. But only when I needed something Clinque, like make-up or moistourizer (sp?). Never more than $10.00. I needed to indulge. Once in a while a blouse on sale:( The important thing is to remember to forgive ourselves. Now I live a healthy and moral life. No thanks to Prem Rawat. Love to all, Cynthia

Subject: Forgiveness From: PatD To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 14:12:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I forgive everyone who did my head in back then & I'm not saying that out of some sort of touchy feely emotion,but out of the recognition that we were all in the same boat,even though some were closer to the captain than others. I spent my time in steerage & cordially disliked most ashram premies whilst feeling guilty(on & off) for not being of their number. It's only since EPO that I've been able to see the big picture(I know that's obvious,but it needs to be restated again & again),after all you can't put yourself into someone elses shoes unless you have the information about what really happened. Rawat's spiritual pyramid scheme certainly seems transparent now,but back then we were 'one in the spirit',even though the elect were more in the spirit than the 'community' premies. I must say my very 1st impression of the forum was'Christ,ashram premies,I'd forgotten they existed,& here they are again shouting & raving'.....Then I began to understand. I'm not sure we can forgive ourselves;some of the things I've done make me cringe with shame when I remember them(thankfully not too often),& I just hope that others will forgive me. We'll bear the scars forever but will be all the wiser for them.Of that I AM sure. It's a public holiday here for the Queen's Jubilee & the road outside is quiet,the kids are on holiday in France with their Aunt,the wife has gone to sing Land of Hope & Glory with her friends from work,& as a cool & golden early summer evening fades,I'm going downstairs to read a book. That's peace & freedom.(God bless her majesty)

Subject: Re: We've all done things.... From: Vicki To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 09:00:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So Cynthia, if you tallied up a salary for what you did at Decca, what would it have been? A hecka of a lot more than a bottle of Clinique and a blouse!

Subject: Re: We've all done things.... From: Cynthia To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:08:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Vicki, I had to giggle when Tonette said 'you wore make-up in the ashram?' I don't feel a bit guilty. Many of us wore make-up in the ashram in Miami. There were many California girls of the PAM type there who work silk outfits--ashramers, too. But my skin is very sensitive to the sun and without make-up my skin would have fried in Florida. My skin is so sensitive I cannot even wear titanium ear rings. I can't wear gold or silver or any metal around my neck or wrists. Even beads give me a rash. I loved Clinique products and used them prior to ashram life--they really made my skin so clear and nice. Ah...my youthful skin. That's one thing Maha didn't get. I inherited good skin--if I protect it. My maternal grandmother had peaches and cream skin into her 70s. I digress... Deca work, wow! If I calculated the regular hours, i.e., 8 to 5, usually seven days per week, it would be a lot of bucks, plus interest times the number of years past, 22 years! It would be a much larger amount if I put in for the overtime pay at time and a half! Not just the Saturdays and Sundays, but the 24 to 72 hour gigs doing slavery for Prem Pay Pal. DECA's a sore spot for me and I like people to discuss it here. There were so many premies there working for free or a small stipend. Anything for darshaaaaan... Oh yeah, again, I knowingly handled illegally obtained photocopied documents. Boeing 707 specs smuggled out of Boeing in Seattle for Maharaji and his Boeing 707. Being in a cult will make people do anything for a bona fide;) LOTU. That, I regret, because normally I'm a Whistle Blower not a conspiratorial, secretive type of person. Ten bucks here and there from the Gainesville community? BFD. Btw, that blouse was borrowed from me by a sister who volunteered to wait tables at the lard's birthday bash in Miami--the one with entertainment and a sit down meal. I never got to wear it once and she got salad oil all over the front. Pisser. ;) Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: We've all done things.... From: Jethro To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 03:05:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'I put people off with my 'from the mount satsang' which was condescending to those who weren't in the ashram for whatever reason.' That was because prem always told us(ashram premies) that WE were the ones that gave our lives to Him and NOT the others. Love Jethro

Subject: You wicked person, you, you, From: Tonette To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 23:20:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You wore makeup while in the ashram?????? And stole $10.00!! Maybe more than once?? And you bought a, a, a, I'm just so shocked I can hardley speak, bought a BLOUSE???!!!!! Cynthia, this completely changes my opinion of you. Prem, I hope you're reading this. Make a hard copy, put this confession on your website. It throughly substantiates and illustrates that the ex's here were never true premies to begin with. psst. want to hear what I did? I stole money from divine sales at the Kissimee Festival, 1979. Best service I ever had. For three blissful days I sold pictures of the divine family, and they were expensive too. Had no problem showing up and getting into that service! I pocketed about $30.00 a day. I figured I deserved some wages which I figured was about 5% of what I sold. And there was the question of gas money to get home with. I wasn't going to rely on 'grace' to solve that little dilemna. I completely forgive myself. Giggling here Tonette

Subject: Well said, J-M and thanks! From: Richard To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 11:04:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your thoughts on the abuse cycle are well thought out and heart-wrenching as well. Just stating what you have will, hopefully, allow you to release the old guilt surrounding your actions long ago. Thanks for having the heart to tell us. Richard

Subject: Very well said, Jean-Michel From: PatC To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 10:18:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you sent a copy to our mutual friend. I know that I did things as community co-ordinator that I now regret and hope that I will also have the opportunity to apologize one day.

Subject: Re: Very well said, Jean-Michel From: Jean-Michel To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 13:39:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Apologizing to him for this abuse, and the reflection I had on this particular event had a very powerful effect on me. I wish other persons who've been in position of power in EV/DLM or anywhere else to have the same opportunity.

Subject: Re: Very well said, Jean-Michel From: Jean Valjean To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 09:48:44 (PDT) Email Address: jeanvaljean2@free.fr Message: Thank you JM for you telling this story. It helps me a LOT. As a matter of fact i did answer you email but it did not go thru as i got some technical bugs with my messenger (OE AND Nestcape). It strikes me now how abuse was and still is the keey word for the dynamic that was/is going on in youknowho's 'world' and i clearly remember that i KNEW it! I dit put all the blame (as HE was) onto the organization people. Very little did i understand this was coming from the top. I do say again this is over now for me and as someone said earlier, this is no big deal and i suvived it. To speak about it is very healing though and that puts an highlight upon all the others abuses i have been thru as a victim or abuser. Quite uneasy it is to express all my very feeling in english, and to make it short, i am not a fence-sitter anymore. I jumped into the maya. And it is SO beautiful!!! Hope to see you when i go to Paris.

Subject: Thank you too From: Jean-Michel To: Jean Valjean Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:06:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your post moved me to tears, really. You know what ? I'm expecting the persons who've abused me in the cult to apologize. Maybe I'm dreaming a bit .... I won't tell names, but there are definitely some persons I'd like to hear apologies from.

Subject: Re: Thank you too From: Jean Valjean To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 00:45:31 (PDT) Email Address: jeanvaljean2@free.fr Message: You are dreaming JM, no one wants to remember, to say the least, and I think this is quite normal. Life goes on and I see our discussion here like a chance as an opportunity for us to unknot some knots, which is very rare and rewarding. The chances were very remote for us to be confronted with this topic. Thanks to the internet and EPO, which is very funny and interesting, at least here on the us forum. As i told you, i did put the blame on the organization people for all the incompetence and hierarchy syndrom that was going on in youknowhozworld, and you can imagine what kind of thinkings got me about you when reading your posts (very angry ones moreover) for the first time on the french forum, me as a faithfull devotee. Satan in comparizon would be a pretty gentle fellow. But the strength of pure information did the job. This is why HE is so frightened with the press and free information. No on should see what is going on behind the curtain, which is not THAT awfull, but just plain regular lapse into vulgarity.

Subject: I hope it helps him From: PatC To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 13:43:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll email him soon and talk about it. Thanks again, J-M.

Subject: Re: I hope it helps him From: Jean Valean To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 09:52:09 (PDT) Email Address: jeanvaljean2@free.fr Message: YES, it helps a lot. Thank you

Subject: good post, J-M From: Roger eDrek To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 09:29:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: it certainly did begin with emptying one's self out, didn't it?

Subject: Responsibility and the limits From: Jean-Michel To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:14:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The problem boils down to how far can you accept doing things or hearing things you don't agree with for the sake of your faith ? I did this, in spite of my feelings, because I was blinded by my faith, but that doesn't undermine my responsibility in what happened. That's the worst thing I did whilst in the cult I guess. But there are countless situations I've been a part of where we've been consciously lying to people, or organizing things 'in the way M wants it', knowing there was something wrong in doing so. I've been in countless situations where I've watched people who were in charge - and under M's 'agya' - do the most unethical or stupid things. And I never said: 'that's enough, I can be a part of this anymore'. I shut up. I remember one time in Rome (late 80s I guess) I guess, when I was doing some service with one of M's personnal assistants (one tall Australian honcho I don't remember his name, working with Ray B.). And the guy was doing a big mistake, jeopardizing the whole assigned seating system. That was a big issue that day believe me. I first undid what he'd just done, putting the things back straight - according to the complicated plan. He noticed what I did, abused me verbally, and did it again the way he wanted it - in the name of the superior consciousness he was pretending to have. Of course the whole seating system collapsed because of what he did. I heard M was furious about it. Not talking of the hundreds of premies who did service in the seating system, that was useless at the end of the day - the huge amounts of money spent uselessly etc. I remember the feeling I had being a part of such an absurd thing. That didn't make me quit. I finally decided to quit in 96-97 when the cup was full, partly because the main people responsible for abuses cases were back to power - or promoted - in the organization, and I din't want to be a part of it anymore. It took that much .....

Subject: Re: We've all been abused by the maha From: Vicki To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 06:15:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Main Entry: 1abuse Pronunciation: &-'byüs Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French abus, from Latin abusus, from abuti to consume, from ab- + uti to use Date: 15th century 1 : a corrupt practice or custom 2 : improper or excessive use or treatment : MISUSE 3 obsolete : a deceitful act : DECEPTION 4 : language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately, and angrily 5 : physical maltreatment synonyms ABUSE, VITUPERATION, INVECTIVE, OBLOQUY, BILLINGSGATE mean vehemently expressed condemnation or disapproval. ABUSE, the most general term, usually implies the anger of the speaker and stresses the harshness of the language . VITUPERATION implies fluent and sustained abuse . INVECTIVE implies a comparable vehemence but suggests greater verbal and rhetorical skill and may apply to a public denunciation . OBLOQUY suggests defamation and consequent shame and disgrace . BILLINGSGATE implies practiced fluency and variety of profane or obscene abuse . Yes, I'd say the word 'abuse' is very appropriate. Courageous post Jean-Michel.

Subject: Re: We've all been abused by the maha From: Pat W To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 06:46:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good post JM..I agree completely. Vicki...would you mind telling which dictionary you're using? It sounds rather useful.

Subject: Dictionary From: Vicki To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 16:13:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just pop the word dictionary in google and several show up. This one is easy to use. M-Webster www.m-w.com/home.htm

Subject: Through the ages... From: Neville To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 15:33:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...religion has often had this effect, of confusing intelligent and sensitive men so that they act with cruelty and stupidity. It's a familiar story. It's one of the reasons I'm a Christian who hates religion. Neville

Subject: Caution for email virus from me From: Roger eDrek To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 23:09:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Somebody is masking an email that pretends to come from one of my personal accounts at ISP oz.net. Do not open the attachment because it might be a virus. This is really bullshit. And you sickos out there need to stop this crap.

Subject: It's not just you, Roger From: JHB To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 01:06:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've had many email viruses that at first glance appear to be from various ex-premies, but the return address is always different. As I've said before, they really are wasting their time as I'm properly protected. John.

Subject: Re: It's not just you, Roger From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 01:24:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's why I only post a web-based email here. I get at least one a day and sometimes more.

Subject: Just got one From: Tim G To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 15:36:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just got one from a certain 'Moldy Warp'! Thank God for NORTON

Subject: Re: Just got one From: PatC To: Tim G Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 15:58:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've had several purportedly from Moldy and one from Kathy Barragon. LOL.

Subject: This is deliberate targetting From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 16:27:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Most viruses spread 'innocently' in that the person spreading the virus doesn't realise it as they have also been infected, and the virus software picks up addresses from the person's address book. But enough of the viruses I've received recently, appearing to be from ex-premies, could not possible have been spread that way. Someone is deliberately trying to make us think that these emails are coming from people we trust. AS I SAID BEFORE, THESE PEOPLE ARE WASTING THEIR TIME! To the perpretrators, why not put your energy into defending your master rationally? John.

Subject: Come now John, that's the only real service left From: Tonette To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 20:45:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Since Maharaji purports to be so computer savy, as well as a musician, poet, pilot, self knowledge teacher and his credentials do impress the beautiful, rich and powerful readers of 'Leaders Magazine,' surely you can't begrudge a few bothersome devotees trying to gain attention and impress their master with their ability to seize the ex cyber world by sending e-mail viruses. It's one of the few real services left for them. No more video's to show, no more trinkets to buy, no real agya except to send in that check. Premies were always high energy. If he's not going to give them a service well, left to their own devices, they'll make one of their own. And using the computer might get them an invite from the Master himself. Perhaps, they dare to dream and hope, my master might want me to show him how I did it! Take care, Tonette

Subject: Tonette you too funny! LOLOLOL [nt] From: Cynthia To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:27:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: a theory re:Randy Prouty, et al.... From: Matlock To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 07:53:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is just a theory, and perhaps a cynical one at that, but we ARE dealing with prem rawat, a man who will do just about anything to preserve his power base and financial income..... So here goes..... 1)Randy was privy to two of the most damning and controversial pieces of informaion to date: a)the 'hit and run' bicycle incident in India b)the 'non-reporting' of jagdeo sexual abuses He may also know about plenty of other stuff, both from first hand experience, and other incidents that he may have heard about, from good sources... 2)People have repored that Randy was not in the 'inner circle' for a long time, and was supposely living with his girlfriend, and selling real estate on the coast of NC, or something like that... 3)In the last few years, he and girlfriend move to the malibu area....supposedly she was offered an 'inner circle' position, and Randy somewhat reluctantly went along, but is also close to the action now.... 4)THEORY: Could it be that Randy knows a lot, is mentioned a lot on epo, and that prem rawat has asked hm and maybe other former pams to come around again, maybe in a limited way, to bring them closer to the fold, rather than farther away, and thus be less likely to 'talk' like some of the other former pams have done? If it looks like he or any other pam might spill some damaging info, you bring them closer with the promise of a little dashan and inner circle action to keep them on your side, rather than going farther away and possibly talking... What do you think?

Subject: Re: a theory re:Randy Prouty, et al.... From: Vicki To: Matlock Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 09:17:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The adage 'Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer' just might apply. In this case, it might be potential enemies.

Subject: Lets play guess the PAM From: Loaf To: Matlock Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 08:37:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean... its hardly a shocking revelation that maharaji uses people... the question and the shock is 'how far does he go ?' I remember that 'to be used by M' was my earnest prayer for many many years. I wanted to belong to him and be used by him. PAMs would like me for my fresh faced enthusiasm and sometimes (perhaps) try to 'educate me' by telling me that 'its not all roses at the top' I remember distinctly long conversations with Ron Geaves and others (whos confidence I would not break since they are utterly dependant upon Maharaji for their livelihood.) They ALL at some point or another had come to the disappointing realisation that maharaji didnt givea fuck about anyone else. One PAM told me many times how it was clear to them that Maharaji didnt give a fuck about anybody else. 'He doesnt care for ANYONE, except his family'. This PAM felt used, abused and spat out by M, the problem being that there is nowhere else to go. They told me many times that M wasnt very 'likeable' and that the humble and sweet guy you see on stage (we are in the 90s now before you all start shouting and throwing shoes)is an 'act', and yet in the same breath they would say how 'NOTHING in their life mattered to them as much as their personal relationship with Maharaji' His company confers status, approval, self esteem, financial security and the attendant pre-programmed bliss. So the prouty manipulation you propose is not far fetched at all. As my friend the PAM said to me ' Maharaji sees people as toys to play with and use, and when he is tired of you he just throws you away.' Can anyone guess who my PAM is ? Post your guesses.

Subject: Glen Whitewash Whittaker? [nt] From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 11:14:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hey, that was my guess! From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 11:31:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But I decided not to bother posting it. Hey, Glen, if you're reading this, does it feel good to have people thinking of you! John.

Subject: nope.. not Glen try again From: Loaf To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 12:45:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Glen told me once that he read some anti-newspaper articles in the 70s and got confused for a short while. Glen has always seemed extremely caring and fair (in my dealings with him)- and although his converstions have been at times been healthily disrespectful of Maharaji the idol - I cant imagine him speaking critically of maharaji's attitude to the premies... Glen is much more likely to say 'hes the lord and if thats the way he wants to play... ' Nope its not Glen... but someone else very close to M in the 1970s and early 80s...

Subject: Milky? From: Richard To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 13:03:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is it Milky aka Michael Cole? Or Julian West?

Subject: Re: Milky? From: Loaf To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 15:18:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am bored of this game now. It was dear old Peter Lee, the long time number one driver. I remember when I went to the residence the one time I was XRated and was appalled at the atmosphere of paranoia and fear there. Maharaji was around, but everyone was scared shitless of losing their tenuous foothold on the social pyramid. I was 'told off' for letting M's dogs out by accident (they were dying of thirst on a blisteringly hot day) so I filled their bowl up with water and opened the gate to put it in... one of the little bastards shot out like a turbo charged rabbit and hurtled directly into the main house. I confessed to my terrible crime and was told in no uncertain terms (By Rick Bluestone) that 'they were maharaji's dogs and if he wanted them to die without water that was no business of mine'. He also told me (weighting hiswords with great importance)that 'IF he was asked who had let the dog out.. he would HAVE to say' i remember at the time thinking.. I wonder if this asshole thinks I should be scared. I was sorry if I had broken a rule, certainly, but not frightened of maharaji finding out. This was a HUGE threat to be levelled at me, but cos of my innocent belief that Maharaji was lovely... why would I be scared ? In fact, looking back, the fear at the res was palpable. Sorry I digress, peter Lee shared a flat with me for a few months when he had returned from india. he wasnt a happy chap, having left the US residence some years earlier cos he couldnt stand the atmosphere. He had quite a bad time of it all - went to stay in Delhi at the invitation of sampurnanand but came back to the UK feeling a bit lost and freaked out. Maharaji studiously ignored him - but peter had nowhere else to go and nothing else to do other than to BEG for some service. He just wanted to be with maharaji with all his heart, and yet he would come home from the res and say what a cold hearted selfish bastard maharaji was, and how it was very evident that M cared nothing for the premies, or for Peter, who was jumping through hoops to appeal to maharaji for some permenant service. Pretty soon Peter was put ona salary and sent out on the road, and was feeling more secure and happy. I however started to have a bad time emotionally, and I am sure that something of the atmosphere at the res that day started to unravel the web of blind, unquestioning faith which I had until then. It was certainly the beginning of the end.. for me. I saw a number of things at the res which disturbed me - the poem by apilot which M has 95% copied, the way I was told off, but most of all it was the atmosphere. It felt as if the pemies were unconcious and M was stepping over their bodies.

Subject: I was right From: Sir Dave To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 16:37:36 (PDT) Email Address: sirdavid12@hotmail.com Message: and I had already guessed it was Peter Lee and was just about to say so when I read your post. Peter Lee is one person who has been ''tested'' by Maharaji time and time again, right from the early seventies. Peter wanted to have a relationship with a certain female premie but Maharaji said that sure he could have the relationship but he would no longer be his personal driver. So Peter cut the relationship. Ha, how do these guys do it year after year, watching their lives fritter away on broken dreams and empty promises. What kind of tough love have they become addicted to, even when such love is an illusion? Maharaji never loved them. Peter came into the ashram one day and gave a heavy satsang about how bad things were going to get and how we should practice word and nectar. It occured to me that the satsang came from fear and I realised even then that the guy was just about brainwashed up to the hilt. A mission man through and through and a totally loyal devotee who had willingly given his all. And yet beneath that dark moustache was not a happy man. Here was a man who had been tested and tortured by Maharaji over and over again. There was no smile behind that moustache, only tiredness and fear and dogged loyalty to a mistake that is surely tragic in its implications. Oh what a waste to have listened to Maharaji and wasted so many precious years on an impossible dream. Well nightmare actually. For Maharaji keeps people by a sinister and dark emotional blackmail which is cruel in the extreme and yet hardly perceptable to those caught up in its web.

Subject: great story, Loaf. Thanks From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 16:34:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reading it brought back memories of living in Malibu and the absolutely ugly cut-throat culture surrounding M. Once, when I asked why the vibe was so paranoid, I was told by a PAM who lived at the residence (whose name I don't remember) that it was because all the forces of darkness in the universe converged on M to try to destroy him. But to me it simply had the same stink as the paranoia in managment circles in a corporation - naked ambition and the stench of brown-nosing. Big drip.

Subject: Close Encounters From: Richard To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 16:26:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is certainly ironic, and then some, that the people who have had Close Encounters of the Satguru Kind (unkind?) invariably have a rude awakening. Of course there are exceptions of the Anderson variety but by and large it ain't no picnic. I know at least 2 former live-in PAMs who have no respect for M after having lived under the same roof. Sorry, no names will be dropped but most would know them. In the beg-ning (beg in the beginning?), you can chalk M's behavior up to lila or one of those clever apologist phrases like The closer you get to the fire the hotter it is ad nauseum. The few times I was in M's close orbit when his presence wasn't being orchestrated, he came off as annoyed, bored and mostly indifferent. The only time I saw him as appearing radiant was when I stood across from him in Kissimmee as he was having his feet kissed in a darshan line. Otherwise he frankly seems uncomfortable with himself. If the masses who yearn to be at the feet only knew they are made of clay. For myself, I mostly tended to separate M the guru from Prem Pal the person. That way my BFD experience of the Divine Whatever could never be diminished by what my "limited mind" thought of Prem Pal the bored man-child. Pay no attention to the tyrant behind the curtain. Richard - been there, done that, woke up

Subject: Grisly From: PatD To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 16:14:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As JM said a while back the social dynamic around GMJ is that of a medieaval court. Horrible,& entirely without any point whatsoever. At least the courtiers of the real world kings got half a county for their subservience,but what do you get in rawatworld.....a poxy driving job. It's sad.

Subject: p.s.......... From: PatD To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 16:53:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......forgot to ask you whether he's still into it.

Subject: Sandy Collier [nt] From: PatD To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 15:10:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Pat.. see my Milky post above [nt] From: Loaf To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 15:22:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yikes and payrolls From: Livia To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 06:36:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yikes to all of this about Peter Lee. One can't help wondering how much more people can bring themselves to put up with (and shut up about) when they are finally on the payroll. Incidentally, how many people are on the payroll these days? Apart from the obvious like Bobby Hendry and Sandy Collier, who else? Peter Lee cheered up considerably when he was put on a salary - not surprising because where could he go after 30 years as Maharaji's driver? In fact, where could any of them go after a lifetime's dedication and no qualifications whatsoever? A guaranteed salary would be quite an incentive for any of them to put up and shut up. Love, Livia

Subject: Addendum re Rick Bluestone From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 06:41:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf, was that the Rick Bluestone with a brother, from North London? They used to run a shop called Mr Grumpy's in Camden Town? He seemed a harmless enough guy back in the 70's - I had no idea he was now an x-rated PAM-type living in LA. It all sounds quite surreal... Love, Livia

Subject: More on Peter Lee (and a bit about Rick) From: Loaf To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:09:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hi livia Rick was a cool guy... but when I knew him he was living round the corner from the Reigate residence (this is around 93) and he and his irish housemate (Euan ??) and Peter Lee used to get considerably stoned whenever the opportunity arose. I remember Peter smoked a pipe or two a day.. i remember saying to him one day 'maharaji would never smoke dope' and he almost laughed. Peter, after he left the USA studied photography in college in the UK, but I think he really missed the high life around the res and felt really 'shut out'. He said to me once that leaving the residence staff in the USA was the worst decision of his life, but that his heal;th was suffering. He was weighing about 8 stones (thats 8 x 14 lbs) and desperately unhappy at the res. he said that a lot of the residence staff fought and bickered and that m was not happy. He was also around at the time that maharaji's marriage was in trouble and a counsellor came to the house. I remember his telling me that the counsellor (Dr Irene Kassorla ?)was talking to/working with a group of people (M included) and that they commented that ONE person in the group was not 'opening up'... at which point Peter told me that M stood up and walked out. Peter really is a lovely chap, and i didnt initially want tobreak his confidence (not that anything was told to me in confidence.. in 1993 the idea that information and repeated casual talk could be made available internationally was unthinkable.) i got to know Peter very well. Ultimately, though, I think he was lost without maharaji's endorsement, and like an addict, was compelled to return to the very source of his problems. When you are 50, careerless, unemployable, broke, with a 20 year gap in your CV and no ambition left... except to return to the shelter of an admittedly callous and careless master to BEG for employment.. no matter how menial... the dynamics of PAM's are revealed to be desperately insecure. I got the distinct feeling from my contact with mahraji around this time, and from tales told by various idiots (including Ron Geeves) that maharaji doesnt like premies very much. I got the impression that He finds them weak and needy... exactly the way he wants them. Isn't there something deeply rooted in Maharaji's pattern of getting people to beg you for stuff, and then to despise them for it ? It sounds like there lies an extended infantile tantrum at the heart of what seemed to be infinite grace and wisdom.

Subject: Re: More on Peter Lee (and a bit about Rick) From: Bai Ji To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 17:36:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Peter took me to a little Tudor Pub one day for lunch. He had to take M's Rolls Royce Silver Shadow out for a run and as I was helping at the Res he asked me if I wanted to go for a run. M was in Malibu at the time. I felt like a queen pulling up in the carriageway of the hotel, all eyes checking out the rare expensive vehicle. I have had so little luxury in my life and it was fun to vicariously experience the stares of appreciation from the fellow diners in the restaurant. If they only knew I thought that this was the Lord's car and I was just dust. Years later I was talking with Rick and I asked after Peter and he told me that Peter had been in Malibu and was extremely tired from all his duties and touring around. He apparantly made the fatal mistake of talking to M about this and asked if it was possible to have a break to take a rest. M was quiet and then turned to him and said really angrily 'You know what , why don't you take a break, a permanent break!' and sent him away. Poor Peter was devastated. He felt that he had completely blown it. He returned to England where Rick said he spent his days at the Residence gate/Guest house, watching the cricket and drinking beer, totally depressed. Just waiting for M to acknowledge him and give him a service again. This went on for a couple of years and then Rick said that one day Peter decided to stop drinking and try to get his act together. As the story goes, the next day the phone rang and it was M out of the blue talking like nothing had happened and giving him something to do. He was alive again. Grace, Lila. He told me this and more in response to my sharing with him my longing to serve M personally in my life and he was trying to illustrate that M knows all and to 'Hang in there.' Well I hung in there untill I realised what misery I was in, living my life on the whim of someone who doesn't even know my name or care that I am in pain. A lot of good, beautiful people are hurting this way. Love Bai Ji XXX

Subject: Part of this is a Lie From: Loaf To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 22:09:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: M never rang Peter. Peter went to do a photography course in college, but couldnt get into it. He was having a hard time. He asked Sanpurnanand if he could go and stay at the ashram in Delhi where he did... and nearly went out of his mind with boredom. He returned to the UK in time for the event at Wembley arena. I shared a hotel room with him. M never called him. He was staying with some premies in Swiss Cottage (Toby) and pining for his life with Maharaji (I am writing this without judgement) he moved in with me in a flat of a friend of mine in Knightsbridge which I was renting a room of. I lent him my car and he was happy as a pig in poo.. zipping up to the residence whenever he could be near M - but at the same time hurt and angry and sad about what had happened. His didnt enjoy public speaking, all he wanted to do was serve M personally. He begged and begged ... and eventually was put on the payroll and sent out to speak - pretty much as and when he liked. He spent quite a while on the road.. being looked after in peoples houses, saving his wages up as he realised he had no security for old age. I havnt spoken to him for years... he came to stay in Liverpool at Mum's house shortly after I had come back here in the midst of a breakdown. I really should have said 'No' but I didnt.. I was in a bad way, but tried to hide it. He never has asked how I am since. None of the Premies who were aware that I was having a bad time have EVER asked how I am doing. Tells you a lot really.... fair weather friends.

Subject: Re: Part of this is a Lie From: Bai Ji To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 16:19:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for clearing that up. It just goes to show me that a Lot of what I believed to be True was distorted. I considered Rick to be a sort of PAM and had no reason to doubt him. Especially since it helped maintain my belief that M knew my every thought and intention. I just prayed that one day he would see what a true devotee I was and 'pick me up'

Subject: Rick was manipulative From: Loaf To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 21:59:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Also, as I recalled down below somewhere.. I clearly remember Peter telling me that M was very sweet to him when he decided to have a break. Now, there is always the possibility that Peter was wanting everyone to believe (and himself too) that he had never fallen out of favour and so perpetuating a myth... but I think it more likely that Rick was making up stories in order to make his presence at the residence seem impressive. Who knows....

Subject: Curious about the payroll, would you? From: Tonette To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 22:38:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Loaf, I'm dying with curiousity and I don't mean to sideline this discussion but do you remember how much Peter was paid? I'd like to know what M's 'motivational speakers' were getting at that time. I had no idea they were paid at all. I always thought that that was why they lived off the backs of the communitites they visited and were housed in. What year was this? Anyway, if it's any consolation, I never had much luck with premies as friends either. In fact, I had a few perfectly horrible betrayals from people I thought were my friends first and premies second. One from a best friend I had know since college. And yes, it was related to M's world in several ways. I don't want to go into detail but you're not the only one who experienced premies as fair weather friends. To this day, I still think it interfers with my general trust of anyone outside my family. I gotta know you awhile before I let you in, know what I mean? For what's it worth, I hope you're doing okay. A breakdown, sure will get your attention. They can take a long time to recover from. Not fun at all. I'd rather have a fractured femur, or lose a finger to tell you the truth. Tonette

Subject: i am fine thanks From: Loaf To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 00:45:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Peter was paid (from memory) £ 250.00 a week in 1993/4 - it was basically like a teachers salary. Same for all the full timers I believe, like Peter Dawson. I remember getting the vague impression that there was some slight resistance from Glen Whittaker.. or I may have got that completely confused in my mind and Glen engineered the whole thing. Incidentally Dawson and Lee were rivals for the same job...PD was number one chaffeur in the UK after Peter Lee went on his 'break' and later became M's valet for a while. Peter Lee was therafter employed as a 'back -up driver' and drove the family a lot to the theatre and to events. He would have cheerfully taken peter dawson's job back off him... i remember him commenting one time when he was driving Hansi and Amar following PD driving M that he thought Peter Dawsons driving wasnt very good. Peter Dawson is also on record as saying he would break anybody's legs who tied to take his service off him. Happy days.

Subject: Re: Peter Dawson From: Livia To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 03:58:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Where does Peter Dawson live? In America or England? If he lives in England what does he do when M isn't here? I always thought of him as a rather flat person, although he always used to say he was happy. He was unusual in that he was much older than most of us - probably by about 10 years or so. Sort of from a different generation. He was once an actor and I always felt it was a bit sad that he had abandoned what could have been a good career for him. Actually he did have quite a good, dry sense of humour, but I always felt he was a very hidden person, not as happy as he made out. For someone like him to realise that M is not what he purports to be could be potentially quite devastating as he must be in his 60's by now. Livia

Subject: Re: Peter Dawson From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:24:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I spent qhite a bit of time with Pete, always was friendly if, yes, a little 'dry'....but was disturbed by last encounter when he was needlessly rude and abrupt after another p's genuine question, and kinda cold shouldered me after the event....'don't wan't anyoneone to disturb my focus' vibe.....another good old friend on his way to the zombie plant. :-(

Subject: Frank the gardener From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 04:08:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And while in this gossip mode - although I see it as more than that, although it's interesting for sure but it's also revealing to hear what's happened to people over the years, especially those who were once very close to him - does anyone know what happened to Frank the gardener? I forget his other name (creeping Alzheimers). He was one hell of a devotee. Livia

Subject: Re: Frank the gardener From: Moll of Mole To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 13:03:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Frank Howard, wonderful guy, couldn't read nor write but had the biggest heart, would do any thing for a friend. I saw him a few years back. He was happily married, I think living near Manchester. Still a devotee. Moll of Mole

Subject: Salary details above... From: Loaf To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:12:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Things are coming back to me as I remember. Peter definitely said that Maharaji was very sweet with him when he asked for his break. He said he was kind and thoughtful to him at thattime, and sorry to see him go. Rick Bluestone is stirring things up for effect.

Subject: Got it. Not much money at all From: Tonette To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:48:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But better than what some were paid, which would equate to nothing! Funny how the PAMs who exited early, well not all, nor a majority, ended up much better off financially than the PAMs who are more recently gone. I've read this thread between you guys. Interesting but mostly so very sad for these individuals. But it was all about love. Yeah right. Thanks Loaf, Tonette

Subject: Thanks Bai, Loaf and Tonette From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 00:38:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf and Bai Ji, your writing is always so raw and personal. And I know I am not the only one who loves these stories. This is our history - okay maybe it's really only gossip but it's still scrumptious. I was right there with you. I stopped making friends with premies after 1982 but those first ten years in the cult were heaven and hell to me. I had never before loved any other people as much as I did premies - I mean real love affairs and plenty. The whole UK scene seemed to be so sexually incestuous - everyone was someone else's former lover. It was my intense friendships with premies that kept me in the cult at first. I think I would be just as emotionally raw as you guys if I had had recent love affairs with premies but I haven't for 20 years. All I can say is: thank god I never fell in love or pined for Prem the way some premies did. I loved him the way a good christian Should (in spite of his faults - and it was obvious from day one that he had a few) and hyped up some devotion occassionally but never pined the way Peter did - or I think you do. Dear practical Tonette, I'd like to know the financial details too. The only people on payroll nowadays are family, business employees, lawyers, PR consultants and domestic servants. Instructors are on the way out, in a state of limbo and, in recent years, have had to be financially independent as they were all volunteers. Yes, there are still some true devotees left.

Subject: Hell at the feet From: Livia To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:31:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Loaf, Crikey to all of this. I had no idea. Well, I did, but... After reading all this stuff in the last couple of days it seems increasingly obvious what has happened/is happening to these poor people. No wonder Sandy looked like such a shadow of her former self in the Passages video... From what you say the only explanation can be that Maharaji is in the grip of a serious personality disorder. It's probably of the narcissism variety, and, according to descriptions of narcissism I have read, leads to intense bullying. In other words, he needs devotion/servitude but then despises those who devote themselves/serve him. The devotees are in a terrible trap because of their own low self-esteem which got them there in the first place. They need his approval for their survival and will do anyhting to get it, like poor Anne Johnson, who still apparently craves Maharaji's recognition. It's terribly terribly sad. These people desperately need to get out, get therapy, sort themselves out and get lives, real lives, before it's truly too late. One can only hope that some of them are reading here and have the courage to act. Any premie who still harboured any hope of ending up in close proximity must surely realise by now that it's just not worth it and at best completely avoided. I don't know if anyone here is in close proximity to any practising premies but I had a conversation with one just yesterday who seems totally bemused by the way things are going. He's an active premie of 30 years standing and told me he doesn't like anything that's going on at the moment. He said he just keeps his head down, does his meditation and doesn't even try to comprehend what's going on. Compared to the happy radiant person he was a few years back he now seems disillusioned and cynical. But he still hangs on in there. Not for long I wouldn't think. And he must be representative of many. My God I'm glad I stopped trying to get close to the lotus feet many years ago.... This is a good place to be and the air is fresh. Love to all of you and thanks, Loaf, for these fresh revelations. Livia XX

Subject: Re: Hell at the feet From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 13:04:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ((((((( shiver )))))) Liv, if a crash is gonna come, there's gonna be a lot of pieces to pick up; even now i have days when my head spins, or faced with adversity I start to spontaneously 'go into holy name', other times i feel an anger, uptight , can't trace it, just feels like too much of me held back for too long.... god knows , how all this is going to work out. Love as always.

Subject: Re: Hell at the feet From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 13:36:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV sweetie, yes I have a funny feeling, probably inspired by a rather disquieting conversation I had with a premie of 30 years standing yesterday. Actually he was the disquieted one. He seemed to be all at sea with what on earth is going on - nothing seemed to add up for him and yet he was hanging onto his central belief nonetheless. He probably reflects the views of most premies generally. Meaning - we mustn't make the mistake of thinking the apparently gung-ho attitude of the premies over on LG is representative of the premies generally. I don't think it is. The few practising premies I've spoken to recently seem disorientated and vague; going along with it in the absence of knowing what else to do, really. I think if people like them were to really study EPO in depth, there would no longer be enough to prevent them from jumping. Even if it doesn't happen the first time they look - it's just a matter of time. Especially if they read what Loaf just said above. You couldn't have made it up, really. What a long strange trip it's been... Love to you, Livia XX PS Hey, do you want to meet up and go to the Barbican in July for an incognito bit of darshan along with Bolly, Thorin and me?

Subject: Re: Fell at the heat From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 15:07:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't know how I feel about incognito darshan (!!!), love to see u guys tho', really. Last time I saw peter, he was on a tour revving people up to come to next event: I knew Peter at the beginning, always seemed a lovely giant soul, bit like a divine Elliot Gould in Mash days! When I saw him, he absolutely stank of tobacco, like he'd been left in a packing crate with 200 cartons of Capstan full strength and a bunsen burner... this was supposed to be a sort of introductory-ish local 'do'..and he was going on and on about M in intimate personal detail, his smile etc etc, like a lovesick thirteen year old girl in boy-band heaven, his body language was soooo embaressing, almost bending into himself in simulated 'rapture'...It was really really awful...I felt so sad to see such a great guy turned into a fawning gopi, with no conception of how he might be coming across to potential aspirants....in fact, on the strength of that evening, I would have to say a took a step further away from M and SK. I think you are right about pwks in general, trouble is, any attempt at trying to open up the discussion , not to slag off M, but just to try and help, is met with an unpredictably unfriendly response. Let you know about july; btw, why do you want to go?

Subject: peter public speaker From: Loaf To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 22:28:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hi AV He is not happy speaking at all. It was an additional cruel twist that he eventually got a job 'revving' when that is the last thing he wanted or should be doing. He quite often gets quite drunk before speaking to give himself the courage to do it... and so he over-acts, says all the words and thinks the feeling should follow. Which it doesnt. I wouldnt be surprised if he isnt a severe casualty of M's... a sincere and devoted soul dying of neglect... so close, and yet so far. The thing it all makes me realise is that once your dependency on maharaji gets REAL.... economic as well as ALL the other ways... then you are in DEEP SHIT, and something in him knows this. Denial keeps you afloat for a while...but he knows he is well and truly fucked... and so he has nothing to lose by clinging on. It would take a lot of help, moral and emotional support and all sorts of kindness to help Peter. There are some very troubled people close to maharaji...and they are staying afloat by clinging onto an unstable little man... its not going to make em better.

Subject: Re: Fell at the heat From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 15:29:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV, thanks, and yes the unfriendly response is common. Well, the suspicious response, really, like 'what's the matter with you, reading all that stuff on the net - what's happened to you? you used to be such a devotee!' But one friend I spoke to, after initial hostility, is now ringing me just like before but just keeping off the subject. I'm really glad we're still friends as I do love her. But there are others I am waring of coming out to, for fear of their shock. Oh dear, what a wimp I am. Why go to the Barbican? Well, I haven't seen him since about 1996 or been to any meeting in all that time either and I'd really like to see how it all feels in the light of all this forum participation. I know there could be the risk of stirring up old feelings and longings but I think I'd like to test out the waters, as part of the distancing process. Does that make sense? I want to see where I am with it all, from the perspective of an observer who is somewhere in the middle of the disconnecting process. I don't feel afraid of being sucked in again and don't think here is any danger. What do you think? Do you think it would/could be interesting? Or too disturbing? Or would you rather leave it for now? Maybe I'm crazy. Love to you, Livia

Subject: Re: Fell at the heat From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 03:40:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that Liv... I went to Nottm with much the same feeling, to see how M looked, to see how the prog. 'felt', again I tried to distance myself from the information I absorbed on epo, and at that time I was not aware of some of the darker stories of cyclist incident, drunkenness etc. The first thing that hit me was a huge poster with the words 'Grace' taking up a whole wall, about 25ft high. I thought 'blimey' it's still happening! all those little 'clues' as to M's 'real' identity....the next day I noticed another saying 'speed(!!)', then realised it was an ice skating poster, as was the first.....jeez, are my thought processes ever tampered with. By the end of the two days, yes I was being affected, was being moved, felt 'that place, that feeling'.....but the videos; yecchhh...so self congratulatory, esp his little family of blissbunnies, like to see them live in a bedsit in Dalston and keep up the 'gratitude' thing...I'd feel pretty grateful living in the lap of luxury in Malibu....and that's NOT sour grapes....I just detest people who preach food to the starving. And M himself, sounded like behind all the words and his on stage 'presence' and charisma, there was something kinda...ruthless (?), the bit about 'if you don't like it...walk!!' was a tad chilling. And then there was all the usual protracted, complex, tedious and pernickerty procedure for actually getting IN the hall; queues, desks, interrorgations, line swapping.....what's all that about after 30 years??? hello? money-ticket-seat.?...whats the f*****g problem?... never did get that one; and the lame music, and the lame merchandising.... but still something got thru' to me , that 'otherworldly' feeling and sense of being moved. Its a big bag of worms Liv, a really big, big bag of worms. You really wanna do this?...maybe I should go, but I've heard so much since Nottm, It would be difficult not to be judgemental, I don't like that in myself, I want to see things in an uncolored way, if that is at all possible. Still, we must catch up when of these days, it's still a bit scary for me I guess. Love to you and Bolly and Thorin. (X)

Subject: GRACE and SPEED From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 07:51:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV, all very interesting. What's with all the interrogations at the check-in? Was it to make sure you were really a premie, like asking you where you received K etc? I've always thought that a little pointless in a way because only a little research could get anyone in, if they really wanted to. Yes I know what you mean about the slightly chilling aspect when he says thingsa like 'Walk if you don't like it'. I noticed that on the Nottingham video from last year. That warm, loving soft tone didn't seem to be there. That other-wordly feeling - it's probably associative memories of the feeling you had back then in the early days. Being in that situation again with all those people would certainly trigger off the feelings you used to have - I know it did for me when I went to Brighton some years back. Although I went to Wembley a few years later and it felt completely empty - I blamed myself. Also being with all those people who have the same thing in mind... But I know, it can be hypnotic stuff. I must say I'm curious to see what it's like in the light of all this. I'd like to know if I could just sit there and be objective, if you know what I mean, but it probably just isn't possible. I'd probably feel either slightly lured back in or deeply negative, neither of which would be the best way to spend an afternoon. Plus all the attendant hassles etc. I'd only go if I could go with two or three of you guys and then go and have a really nice meal afterwards or something. Which could be fun, no? Anyway, there's time to decide. Lots of GRACE and SPEED to you! Love, Livia

Subject: LOL Its SPACE and GREED [nt] From: Loaf To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 08:14:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re:GREASE AND SPEYED? [nt] From: AV To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:27:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: GROSS and SPEWED ? [nt] From: Loaf To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 23:27:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: GROSS and SPEWED ? [nt] From: Loaf To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 23:25:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I have heard from a few Premies... From: Loaf To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 22:16:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have heard from a few Premies who are disturbed by the changes... I think the fact that people are getting older brings a certain clarity... and as soon as M breaks the rhythm and tries to re-invent himself, it gives people the opportunity to re-assess. I would be interested to attend just to see how it all works.. I went to Harrogate and it was fascinating to see M's manipulations exposed and very very visible. All the uncertainty the Premies are feeling could play into his hands.. IF he plays it all corporate, with slide shows and crap and TPRF as his pride and joy.. I suspect it would be the last straw for many people who will leave in droves. If he plays it personal... 'Hi Guys.. its still me' he would re-assure them that TPRF doesnt really matter - its still master and Student and he will draw the faithful to him for reassurance. Lets hope he plays it corporate !

Subject: Re: I have heard from a few Premies... From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:38:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf said: ''IF he plays it all corporate, with slide shows and crap and TPRF as his pride and joy.. I suspect it would be the last straw for many people who will leave in droves. If he plays it personal... 'Hi Guys.. its still me' he would re-assure them that TPRF doesnt really matter - its still master and Student and he will draw the faithful to him for reassurance. Lets hope he plays it corporate !'' Please stop giving Prem free advice. He already has used stuff from here for his spin. Let's hope he is stupid enough to value the advice of his paid PR consultants more than your sensible suggestions.

Subject: He'll hedge his bets, as usual... From: la-ex To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 08:22:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK, here's my 2 rupees on this whole thing... 1)He'll go corporate...I thinnk that's obvious with the prem rawat foundation and leaders article... 2)He'll go 'folksy' to try and reign in a few devotes here and there...this will be done though old photos,old stories ad nauseum about the 'early days'..this cantie in the 'old and the new'... 3)'Leak' selected interviews with trusted old timers like Joan 'whitewash' Apter to little unknown publications that offer no opportunity for dialogue, debate or feedback...these 'interviews' can then be collected later in one plce as 'proof' of how evryone loves m and k, and from so many different places as well!!! 4)Keep those dollars coming in one way or another, and make it look special, new and elite if you can....a bit of secrecy spices it up too... 5)Have the ev attorneys ready at all times for brushfires to put out... 6)Stock up on the cognac and stogies...

Subject: Delete me !! Quick ! [nt] From: Loaf To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 03:27:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Hell at the feet From: Loaf To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:56:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Livia.. I dont know if they qualify as revelations, but hopefully the picture makes sense to someone out there. Yes the entire syphon of ambition, which leads thousands of PWSK's into a cycle of social and psychological dependancy on M is apalling.. but ONLY visible from the outside it seems... its almost impossible to break out of wanting what everybody else wants without a good reason... and the only good reason people have to navigate by is personal pain... the very thing which brainwashing and practicing Knowledge surpresses. Peter knows that he was sad and lost and dependant on mahraji - he told me what it was like being residence staff. He would need to be awake before M and ready to leap into action IF called, and stay inthat state of readiness until M had gone to sleep. He said he would have a good day if M said his name, a bad day if he didnt, a good day if M smiled at him, a bad day if he was blanked, a good day if he was used, an awful day if someone else replaced him... Can you imagine the stress that years upon years of that uncertainty place upon the broken heart whilst the entire premie world watches you with envy ? One slip.. one fall from favour and there would be nobody there to help you... rather a queue of replacements focussed on their chance of 15 minutes in the sun.# Its lonely I think... especially when people are only nice to you cos you are PETER PAM LEE. I havnt seen Peter for years, as far as I know he is happy in his place in Maharaji's feifdom.. and I wouldnt want to shatter that for him because I think he needs help of a gentler kind.

Subject: Re: Hell at the feet From: Livia To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 13:46:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, they are revelations - it's the first time I for one have ever heard anything of Peter Lee's real feelings. Everyone living on the rollercoaster of needing Maharaji's personal recognition for their survival should read the stuff about NPD - narcissism personality disorder, and the co-dependence that goes with it. They may recognise something there. I'll try to post the link in a minute. I mean, how could the state Peter was/is apparently living in have anything to do with conscious living, realisation or anyhing else that the practise of Knowledge or closeness to Maharaji was supposed to engender? It sounds like co-dependent masochism of the most damaging kind, and anybody trapped in it needs to get away, for their own survival, fast. No good can possibly come out of it. Actually my heart feels quite heavy today from reading what you've written, and I'm grateful to you, Loaf, for having written it, because it's supplied another piece of the puzzle for me. Really. Love, Livia

Subject: Narcissism & co-dependence From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 14:03:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's the link - hope it works narcissicm - malignant self-love www.geocities.com/vaksam/index.html

Subject: neglect leading to narcissism From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 14:57:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And here's another site I've just found, containing a lot of insight I think - plus a lot of understanding as to how so many of us might have grown up with such a need for affirmation.. voicelessness www.voicelessness.com/disc3/index.htm

Subject: The Emotional Pain of Leaving a Cult From: Bai Ji To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 18:10:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Emotional Pain Of Leaving A Cult The following is how former cult members and members of spiritually abusive systems described how they felt when they finally left their group. This may give you some insight into their pain and why there are no easy answers for them. It Hurts It Hurts to discover you were deceived - that what you thought was the “one true religion,” the “path to total fredom,” or “truth” was in reality a cult. It Hurts when you learn that people you trusted implicitly - whom you were taught not to question - were “pulling the wool over your eyes” albeit unwittingly. It Hurts when you learn that those you were taught were your “enemies” were telling the truth after all - but you had been told they were liars, deceivers, repressive, satanic etc and not to listen to them. It Hurts when you know your faith in God hasn’t changed - only your trust in an organization - yet you are accused of apostasy, being a trouble maker, a “Judas”. It hurts even more when it is your family and friends making these accusations. It Hurts to realize their love and acceptance was conditional on you remaining a member of good standing. This cuts so deeply you try and suppress it. All you want to do is forget - but how can you forget your family and friends? It Hurts to see the looks of hatred coming from the faces of those you love - to hear the deafening silence when you try and talk to them. It cuts deeply when you try and give your child a hug and they stand like a statue, pretending you aren’t there. It stabs like a knife when you know your spouse looks upon you as demonised and teaches your children to hate you. It Hurts to know you must start all over again. You feel you have wasted so much time. You feel betrayed, disillusioned, suspicious of everyone including family, friends and other former members. It Hurts when you find yourself feeling guilty or ashamed of what you were - even about leaving them. You feel depressed, confused, lonely. You find it difficult to make decisions. You don’t know what to do with yourself because you have so much time on your hands now - yet you still feel guilty for spending time on recreation. It Hurts when you feel as though you have lost touch with reality. You feel as though you are “floating” and wonder if you really are better off and long for the security you had in the organization and yet you know you cannot go back. It Hurts when you feel you are all alone - that no one seems to understand what you are feeling. It hurts when you realize your self confidence and self worth are almost non-existent. It Hurts when you have to front up to friends and family to hear their “I told you so” whether that statement is verbal or not. It makes you feel even more stupid than you already do - your confidence and self worth plummet even further. It Hurts when you realize you gave up everything for the cult - your education, career, finances, time and energy - and now have to seek employment or restart your education. How do you explain all those missing years? It Hurts because you know that even though you were deceived, you are responsible for being taken in. All that wasted time ... at least that is what it seems to you - wasted time. The Pain Of Grief Leaving a cult is like experiencing the death of a close relative or a broken relationship. The feeling is often described as like having been betrayed by someone with whom you were in love. You feel you were simply used. There is a grieving process to pass through. Whereas most people understand that a person must grieve after a death etc, they find it difficult to understand the same applies in this situation. There is no instant cure for the grief, confusion and pain. Like all grieving periods, time is the healer. Some feel guilty, or wrong about this grief. They shouldn’t - It IS normal. It is NOT wrong to feel confused, uncertain, disillusioned, guilty, angry, untrusting - these are all part of the process. In time the negative feelings will be replaced with clear thinking, joy, peace, and trust. Yes - It hurts but the hurts will heal with time, patience & understanding. There is life after the cult. Copyright 1985, 1995 Jan Groenveld Email: py101663@mailbox.uq.oz.au

Subject: Actually I think it can be more painful than death From: Tonette To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 02:03:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This part of your post caught my attention: The Pain Of Grief Leaving a cult is like experiencing the death of a close relative or a broken relationship. The feeling is often described as like having been betrayed by someone with whom you were in love. You feel you were simply used. It think leaving a cult can actually be worse than the death of a loved one, or betrayal by someone you loved. At least death is a normal part of life. There's support and understanding from society as a whole. Not to mention your family and friends. Betrayal by someone whom you have loved at least affords you some ability to express your feelings. You can go to that person and say, hey look, you're not my friend anymore, or lover, or brother, ect. because of what you did. This is how I'm thinking and feeling. Leaving a cult however is a different ball of wax. You're denied the access to be able to confront M. Society does not recognize by and large, how damaging cult involvement can be. You'd get more effective help, resources and understanding if you had been a drug addict or ax murderer. I, for one, would feel much relief if M would acknowledge, publically, the farse of his implied divinity. And I would grant him his apology if he then set about to quickly make restitution. He could start with you and all the other children that are some of the most badly hurt victims of his little game. But you're not ever going to get that. They'll not be a final chapter of this ruse on a level which is needed and necessary in order for the spiritual rape to heal completely. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised someday. I hope so. I used to get sad when I reflected on M, the premies, what I thought was my noble and valid spiritual path. Deeply saddened, disappointed that it just wasn't true. Then I found EPO and saw that not only was it not true (knew that) but M had twisted and turned and lied to keep as many people from coming to the conclusion that I had. And here I was just thinking that I had been naive and stupid. I had no idea that I had been raped! Boy was I ever mad! Now my anger and hurt has abated somewhat but there will always be a part of me that has a tarnish on it because of M and his cult. My involvement was no where as great as yours nor at such a young age. I can only speculate what it must be like for you. Time, distance, other experiences will help diminish the pain. I think you know that. Please take good care of yourself. Fondly, Tonette Hang in there Bai Ji.

Subject: I remember it well [nt] From: Neville To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 00:23:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The Emotional Pain of Leaving a Cult From: CA To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:19:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the post Bai Ji... all very familiar feelings I've been going through and, unlike Jerry, deep down I DID buy into the bullshit for 30 years. Slowly I'm regaining my spiritual strength and in time I'm sure new horizons will appear and the healing process will be complete. Thanks again.

Subject: I didn't feel that way at all From: Jerry To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 04:28:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just glad I stopped kidding myself about it. Once I did, it was freedom. And freedom tastes good. Nothing about it hurts. I don't understand these people who are moping about feeling deceived. Deep down you had to know it was bullshit, that you were deceiving youself. That's what hurts. When I stopped kidding myself, the pain of it stopped too.

Subject: Deep Down You Had To Know.... From: Bai Ji To: Jerry Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 20:09:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jerry, You know what? I Honestly didn't know that this was Bullshit. I truly believed in all that Maharaji purported Himself to be. I did not question his Agya. I tried to remember Him with Every Breath. I chastised myself for Every Private thought (Lust/Longing) that wasn't attuned or directed to Him. I prepared for that moment when my Devotion had Proved itself to be such that He would accept me as his True Devotee and bring me into His Orbit. I kept my Home in readiness for a visit that may Never come. My life (dust at His Feet) was His to do with and as such, I begged Daily, and moment by moment for His Grace and indulgence to Bless me with His gaze. My Lifelong wish was that He would recognise my unswerving devotion to Him and bring me into His daily life. Whereby I would be blessed as no-one else. What a Fucking Loony !!! You know, for all of the above, I am generally considered to be quite a SANE person. I doubt my own self. I had aspirations of studying Physics and Astronomy in my early youth. My intrinsic questions of life loomed large. I had such open idealistic acceptance and I had no mechanism for filtering out anything. As so many wise souls have proposed here, I feel I may heve been set up to accept M as a Father Figure even though he was barely older than me. So Now I am becoming aware that I am 'Losing my Religion' The most shattering thing (I believe) that a person can go through. Apologies to those that are going through much worse... I have no home in my scheme of things in the world. I am jeopardising my health through all of this through self medicating. I, after being such a Gopi, have abandoned any belief in a Benevolent Universe. And How Lonely is THAT. STill, after all, I have you guys and snappy repartee, which keeps me sane and laughing. So Give me clues. I wish more PAMS would post. They really have a powerful ability to unconjoure the Myth. I Really Love You All. Bai Ji

Subject: You took a terrible fall, got really banged up! From: Tonette To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 20:58:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The human spirit is every bit, if not more resilent, in it's ability to heal. You may end up with a few scars, perhaps a limp, maybe a deficit you'll have to accomodate for. You have a lot left to give and learn and do. I can tell from your posts you have alot to offer. Don't give up, please. And watch it with the self medicating thing. You don't need any health problems on top of all this. I'm trying to learn a new vocation at age 45, I imagine you would be able to also. I'm sorry I sound like I am preaching. I want you to look up. I want it to be okay soon for you. As long as you keep laughing I'll not worry too much. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: taking the good stuff with you From: Livia To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 01:59:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dearest Bai, The pain you're going through - like someone said below, it practically leaps through the screen. I just wish you were here so I could give you a big big hug. Bai, please don't abandon all hope in a benevolent universe - I somehow still feel in my heart of hearts that the universe is ultimately a good, benevolent place. Suppose I could be wrong, maybe I still feel it because of 30 years of being sure of it. But I haven't begun to contemplate that the universe could be a lonely and possibly hostile place.....I just can't, won't! I know some here have, and can. But I can't. I know my limitations! And I don't think that giving up a belief in Maharaji as Lord and Saviour or even good person necessitates giving up everything else too. I really don't. Someone recently said that they can somehow move on taking with them all the good stuff. One of the hooks for me with this whole thing was the resonances of what seemd to be universal truth. You only had to read a book like 'The Perennial Philosophy' by Aldous Huxley to sense that there's a deep, hidden reality behind everything that we consciously know and see. There are still enormous mysteries to life and the universe that are no more or less with or without Maharaji. There's still love, there are still miracles. There's still depth, there's still magic. There's still the possibility of stunning acts of human heroism. There's still mind-boggling intricate beauty and something close to perfection. And yes there's still the dark side, death, destruction, misery and all the rest of it but even within all that there's the possibility of love and uncommon acts of kindness. And moving away from Maharaji needn't detract from any of that. All that was there before we met Maharaji and it's all still there now. And we have each other too, all us people who went through this experience of believing that this person Maharaji could be everything to us. And thank goodness with this weird tool of cybercommunication we can share the journey with each other, daily if we want, in all its depth, pain, insight, understanding and sudden flights of utterly brilliant wit and humour. Somehow I feel that when you come out the other side of this dreadful pain you're going through giving up belief in Maharaji, you'll find that all the other stuff is still very much there, but actually enhanced and better and even more real than before. Please, Bai Ji, just hang on in there - I suspect it'll all come out OK for you, and probably a lot sooner than you think. Thinking of you lots Much love, Livia XXX PS Will email you

Subject: Brainwashed from Day One From: eb To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 07:29:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bai Ji, Yours is truly a unique perspective, one that makes me happy I was a bongo premie so my kids didn't have to go through 'losing their religion' as you describe. (They cracked up when they saw the LOTU video, but were angry that I took them through darshan lines and made them kiss his feet). I was raised a Mormon, a cult from which some of my siblings still suffer the emotional pain of leaving. As I've said before, Maharaji healed me from Mormonism and EPO healed me from Maharaji. It takes time, but it's worth it--living life without the filter of a cult belief system. Not that life is any easier without the crutch of religion--hell, somedays I really wish I could believe in something, anything. I agree with Cynthia about meditation right after leaving a cult--it felt too weird at first to me because I associated my very breath with Maharaji. Now I'm able to do Mindfulness Meditation without getting the 'dissociative premie experience', but it took about 3 years. eb

Subject: Re: Deep Down You Had To Know.... From: Thorin To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 02:14:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are one fantastic girl Bai Ji! The love you have is awesome, it is route to being whole again, it is the example we all take in walking again in the sunshine. Being made whole again, no more feelings of separation. Thank you. Please write much. Please be gentle with yourself, that precious flower needs growing. Love, Thorin xxx (from sunny London)

Subject: Re: Deep Down You Had To Know.... From: Jean Valjean To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 00:17:01 (PDT) Email Address: jeanvaljean2@free.fr Message: Bonjour, Bai Ji Reading your post, i feel like sending you my best thoughts. And my warm encouragements. Et des pétales de roses sur ton chemin. Jean

Subject: Merci.... From: Bai Ji To: Jean Valjean Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 23:50:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mon petit choux! XXXX

Subject: Good to see you Bai Ji From: Richard To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 20:44:02 (PDT) Email Address: richard@rogers-graphics.com Message: Another fabulous Live Eye report from Guruville. You were here and now there then and speak with touching authority. Thanks for reminding us of what it was like to have insatiable longing to be in That Place. And you know what? I believe you when you say: I Really Love You All. Awhile back you said you'd email me. The door is always open. :)

Subject: Re: Good to see you Bai Ji From: Bai Ji To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 21:20:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mahatma Ji, I thought that I had sent you a seperate post but it got lost in the ether. See my post to Dep Doon below. Love Ya!

Subject: But, Jerry, it was different for Bai Ji From: PatC To: Jerry Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 09:59:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bai Ji got K when she was only a child, 13, and has lived almost her entire life, the past 30 years, in the cult. She has lost much more than just a belief system. She has lost the only friends and family she ever knew.

Subject: Re: I didn't feel that way at all From: Dep To: Jerry Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 07:18:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just glad I stopped kidding myself about it. Once I did, it was freedom. And freedom tastes good. Nothing about it hurts. I don't understand these people who are moping about feeling deceived. Deep down you had to know it was bullshit, that you were deceiving youself. That's what hurts. When I stopped kidding myself, the pain of it stopped too. --- Jerry, You say, 'Deep down you had to know it was bullshit.' Well what do you mean by 'it.' Not the experience of meditation I hope. Surely the BS was the belief system surrounding the experience. The relief and relaxation and spaciousness that is the goal of meditation is priceless IMO. Just focus on that and leave the rest. Take what is of value and leave the rest. The truly wise solution is in improving myself.

Subject: Dear Dep From: Bai Ji To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 20:46:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please forgive interrupting the interruption to my thread. I have the utmost respect for your feelings in all of this. May I ask of you a few small things? Let me preface my questions with a small background of my sensitivities. I, from day one, NEVER questioned my Masters Instruction. As He told me that He had the Key to Enlightenment. I also had such Faith in Him that I followed his Every Direction (AGYA) To Betray this in my understanding was to go against the Word of God. Knowledge, to me was secondary. If I had the Fortune to recognise the Living Perfect Master in this life, and to Totally dedicate my life to Him, then I was THE MOST BLESSSED OF BEINGS. So, here I am , lost and alone, EVEN IN MY DARKEST HOUR, the person that I had prepared my whole life for........ HAS ABANDONED MEEEEEEEEEEE. WHAT THE ??? I'm still hurting. Yeah I know I should get over it!!! Well I'm Fucking NOT. Don't Know the reason. Yes I'm weak, BFD. Ta for all of your sympathy. I must admit, There Is still a HUGE part of me that wants M to ring me up and make it all alright. Shit knows I can sing Anastacia under the table. Bring it on X Bai ji

Subject: Re: Dear Dep From: Dep To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 21:31:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Bai Ji, I can feel your emotion coming through my computer screen and am at a loss for words. The best I can do is ask how you will feel about this a year from now? Five years?

Subject: Re: I didn't feel that way at all From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 11:46:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, you said: The relief and relaxation and spaciousness that is the goal of meditation is priceless IMO. Just focus on that and leave the rest. Take what is of value and leave the rest. The truly wise solution is in improving myself. If the knowledge meditation is 'priceless' then why do you keep exploring other avenues? You have to admit that you've brought many new-age and old-new-age stuff here as an expression of how you are further exploring yourself and your human potential. Who told you you needed all of that? What makes you think that you, as you are now, without M's meditation or any other person's meditation or rituals, etc., is in need of improvement? That's what perplexes me about you, Dep. As you know I don't believe practicing meditation after right after exiting a meditation cult is wise or healthy. That's my opinion and I stand by it. After one has worked out the various feelings of guilt and grief and betrayal by M that some of us have, in fact, experienced as a result of Maharaji's con, then maybe, and that's a big maybe, depending upon your ego strength, meditation might be okay for relaxation and to use to feel balanced and focused. Question Deputy: did or do you still worship Maharaji as Lord? Are you willing to look at the option of improving yourself without another hook? I'm really trying to understand you and you sometimes don't answer my posts. That's obviously your choice. I guess my main point is this: we were born without Maharaji and Knowledge and all the various types of sects and religions, so I don't think we 'need' them after life in the cult. What do you say? Will you answer? Cynthia

Subject: Re: I didn't feel that way at all From: Dep To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 13:03:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia, You ask, 'If the knowledge meditation is 'priceless' then why do you keep exploring other avenues?' Meditation is a way to go within and there are many different techniques such as pranayama, mantra, prayer, mindfulness (vipassana), various Western therapies, and yoga. I do it because it is fun, that's all. I enjoy it. IMO it's more fun than hitting a little white ball with a stick, then walking after it, then hitting it again. (My apologies to all the golfing exes out there.) If you don't want to practice K now, fine. There are other ways to go within. If you never want practice K again, fine by me, that's your choice. You do what feels right for you. Just remember that your experience of K is yours and yours alone. When you meditate there are no cables attached to you. I never really liked all that Lord stuff and felt kind of uncomfortable with it so I stayed away from it. It just never clicked. For me the focus was always on K and my experience of K. I did my best to stay away from concepts and keep my focus on feeling. I've even been an off and on atheist for most of my life which probably explains why I'm so attracted to Theravada Buddhism. When I was in my early 20s I almost died from toxic cynicism and I wasn't really interested in anything until K came along. I agree with you Cynthia. As a proud lone ranger, I don't need sects and religions either. =)

Subject: Thanks, Dep... From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 14:02:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for clearing up where you stand on this. I do appreciate your response and respect your choices in life. I hope you didn't take my post to you as rude or condescending. I was simply interested in knowing how you feel about M. I'm a bit of a worry wart and don't want to see people here or anywhere feeling pain as a result of the cult. Different drummers...etc.... Thanks again, Cynthia

Subject: Chiming in uninvited... From: Pat W To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 13:01:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Personally, I don't have any problem either way...if people want to keep the meditation practices they enjoy and yet want to ditch the crap -that's fine. I would say that taking responsibilty and 'control' of your life back from a guru gives you precisely that option. Remember these Yoga techniques have been done by people for ages without being packaged as some exclusive secret thing - and even if they hadn't so what? Just sort your attitude out I say. I happen to find some real value in meditation - 'post cult' if you will. Besides, if I can redeem anything good from the 28 years I've been in and around this whole thing then why shouldn't I? Having said that, I should add that for some time - maybe a year or 2 - when I was the most 'torn' with doubts about the whole thing - I found that the association of meditation with Maharaji was something that I needed to cut out completely. I believe that to stop doing it while you lose your religion about it is an important stage. It's a bit like after a divorce (not that that I've been divorced yet) but I would imagine that it would be unhealthy and unwise to zoom off looking for wifey number 2 or 3 straightaway. Maybe best to consider why you fucked up before you make the same mistake again. Anway, to be precise, the improvement that I find meditation brings, is that it's a kind of conscious rest moment - and also occasionally I get to a state of restful awareness wherein I feel very blissfully in tune with everything and liable to spout meaningful poetry. It's called getting high. If anyone here finds that distasteful that's too bad. I like anyone to argue that why I shouldn't express that opinion here either. Might I upset - or confuse- some sensitive 'exiter' into running back to the cult? I don't think so. I think exing-premies need to know that they can do this stuff and it doesn't inherently bind them to M in some way. I don't see anything wrong with that, and furthermore I don't want to be scared to enjoy these kind of things just because of the bad experience I had with one particular cult. Clearly many people who are 'exiting' the Maharaji cult might be very well advised to stop practicing meditation whilst they recover their equilibrium - but when is it OK to do it again -if that's what you want? Who's going to tell you when you're 'ready'? Cynthia? Jim? Of course not. Cynthia, you say to Dep that practicing meditation right after exiting a meditation cult is unwise and unhealthy. OK but Dep is also saying that he has the intention to leave all the invalid stuff. I would tell you the same. Are you saying he's not ready because he still has some other new-age beliefs to lose? What's the agenda here? It sounds a bit like there's a tendency for some recent 'ex-premies' to be so appalled at their experiences from being 'a premie' that they just can't imagine that anyone in their right mind could possibly 'play with this fire' without getting burnt. This reminds me...Jim, did you sit down and do that hour's meditation yet. I'm waiting! I currently believe that ex-premies who can rediscover the good side of meditation anew are liable to have a better understanding and balanced view of the cult (and hence be better armed against such things) than those who just deny that there was ever any good in it whatsoever and get all upset if people remind them that in itself it is as innocuous thing to do as anything. After one has worked out the various feelings of guilt and grief and betrayal by M that some of us have, in fact, experienced as a result of Maharaji's con, then maybe, and that's a big maybe, depending upon your ego strength, meditation might be okay for relaxation and to use to feel balanced and focused. This raises the question again as to who's job is it to say when someone's ready to start handling this stuff again? Why be scared of the big bad wolf. Look at it straight on and it isn't frightening at all.

Subject: Re: Chiming in uninvited... From: Cynthia To: Pat W Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 13:57:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat, I agree with you. It's been my experience that if someone is in a place where the meditation perpetuates the association with M then it's not healthy, IMO. Key phrase here is 'in my opinion.':) I don't begrudge anyone who wants to practice any kind of meditation, but I would warn anyone off seeking out new gurus or teachings (re: Nigel's post). I simply haven't been clear about what position Dep was taking on this point. He cleared it up in his post to me and I am fine with that. To answer your last paragraph: This raises the question again as to who's job is it to say when someone's ready to start handling this stuff again? Why be scared of the big bad wolf. Look at it straight on and it isn't frightening at all. I don't think that it's my job to make that judgment at all. I don't believe I have the right to tell anyone what to do or not to do, but I still have the right to point out that if someone is still grieving for M, and hasn't made the separation between the k techniques and finds themself becoming fragmented or having bad feelings, then it doesn't make sense to practice his 'teachings.' That's all, no big deal... Cynthia

Subject: precisely PatW and Cynthia From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 14:04:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What makes you guys such interesting companions is that you are all so goddamed opinionated - the exact opposite of cult-think.

Subject: Re: I didn't feel that way at all From: Jerry To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 10:07:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, I never got much out of meditation, so yeah, to me the 'experience' was just as much bullshit as Maharaji being a 'perfect master'. But you have to understand, that the 'experience' was supposed to be much, much more than a relaxing sensation. Knowledge was supposed to be the means of reuniting with the Creator, and Maharaji as 'perfect living master' was supposed to be the only one capable of providing such an expeience. So yeah, it was all bullshit, 'experience' and 'perfect master' alike.

Subject: Some bought into it major league ... From: cq To: Jerry Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 11:35:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jerry, your viewpoint could well be shared by a large number of people who took 'knowledge' thinking it to suspect from day 1. But there was a (smaller perhaps?) proportion of us who put our doubts/scepticism/common sense on the back burner in exchange for a chance to test whether this 'knowledge' was in fact BS or not - on a more permanent basis. At least that was the intention at the time. Some were semi-convinced, and wanting to test it further, (maybe also wanting NOT to test their semi-formed belief/projection that the Maha was 'God-in-a bod') went as far as to give it all they'd got and join an ashram (as recommended by self-same Maha/'God-in-a-bod') What kind of person does that? What kind of person shelves doubt and disbelief in the hope that maybe ... just maybe, The Kid really IS the Big G incarnate? Well, whether for noble reasons or for ultimately selfish ones, I was one of those many who did go the whole hog and buy into the Maha's world - lock stock and two (empty?) barrels. Nearly three years of my life were spent in pursuit of this ideal. Was it *my* ideal to look for God? I guess the Christian indoctrination that I'd been subjected to in my youth (no doubt by those who thought such indoctrination to be 'in my best interests') made it seem that to deny that the Maha COULD possibly be of divine origin would itself be a sin. Maybe my young mind had been too well sown with aspirations of expectation of divinity incarnate. THAT's where this Hindu guru caught many of us early premies. In the trap of thinking that - as we were taught - if God COULD manifest in the form a second coming, then why couldn't that second coming be in the form that would challenge the most basic of our Westernised prejudices - namely the prejudice that God incarnate must come in a form that we would accept. And in the predominantly racist atmosphere of Britain of the 1970s, the fact that Maharaji was Indian of all things, was indeed a challenge to one of our more notorious national prejudices. Tonight I got an email from someone who posts here occasionally. My reply was spontaneous and off the cuff, but reading it back, it seemed to encapsulate something that I've never yet shared here on the forum. For that reason, I'll include it here, and it reads: Lately I've been thinking - could our collective experience of falling at the Maha's floral footsies have resulted in a large number of us being totally anti-religion? I guess when we project our aspirations of divinity onto another human being who could never live up to being the personification of God (and let's face it - NO human should ever be put on that kind of pedestal) then disillusion is the least of the consequenses we suffer. Some might even define the Maha's game (though he's not by any means the only one playing it) as 'spiritual abuse'. That's spiritual as opposed to mental/physical/psychological, though I know those kinds of abuse also went on (possibly still do) within M's world. If ever there was a diabolical plan to ensnare people by appealing to their religious/spiritual aspirations, then spit them out as die-hard atheists, then the Maha's got it down to a T. It's simply a matter of time. But to believe that, you've got to believe in both a God and a Devil. Maybe we're better off not buying into that whole trip any more. As long as the best things in life can still move us deeply. That's what really matters, for me anyway. I must admit, I don't like the 'victim mentality' that so often seems to go with antagonism to the Maha, as expressed on the Forum. But I also don't like the fact that there are some decent honest, though decidedly innocent (if not gormless/stupid) individuals who are STILL on the slippery slope towards wasting large portions of their lives in pursuit of a goal that can only end in disillusion - for themselves that is, though never for the Goo. I could go on. But it's Friday night, it's a Bank Holiday bonus weekend, the sun is shining, and the pub by the river is calling me.

Subject: I could never get into arti From: Jerry To: cq Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 14:19:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember when I was an aspirant, you had to leave satsang before they sang arti. Then, after I received K, I got to stick around for the ceremony. First we sang it after the K session, with little if any enthusiasm. It was weird. Then, that night I got to see the pros in action for the first time, premies who had been singing it for years. REALLY fucking weird, with that tray of candles swirling around, people clapping, swaying, jumping! Too fucking much man! It was the last time I stayed after satsang. The way I figured it was there was no reason for me to stick around praising Maharaji as the Lord if I hadn't had the 'experience' that would give me reason to believe such a thing. Maharaji said so himself, 'first experience, then believe'. So I stuck with it certain that one day I would have that experience, that I'd awaken and realize God. That's right all you lame ass premies who think such an idea is antiquated. That's why we were in it and that's why Maharaji encouraged us to be in it. Anyway, I wasn't a fly by night like you seem to think, Chris. I gave it what I had for 18 years.

Subject: Andrea E. can really swing that tray From: Dickie Pwickie To: Jerry Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 18:04:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean its just so very beautiful to be in That Place singing arti to you know who, especially watching how synchronized Andrea Ericksons is when her hips move with the music. My feelings are strictly platonic mind you but it really gives me a great Experience way down deep within inside just watching her obvious devotion expressed with every muscle in her divine body. Andrea really knows how to swing it for the Speaker and I love it. Oh yeah! Dickie Pwickie, A complete and total PWK since 1972

Subject: Oh, Dickie... From: Andrea E. To: Dickie Pwickie Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 01:21:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're SUCH a DEAR! I'm just SO glad to see that at least there is SOMEONE here who ISN'T filtering out the good! -) :P :D These horrible ex-students just refuse to remember how fun it all was, and instead just indulge themselves with fake repressed memories of how bad it supposedly was. If they only had just destroyed all the old videos and magazines like they had been asked to, and syncronized their memories to match the Master's new and improved version of the past, they wouldn't be such miserable sods now. The Master could have made it all nice for them, but they wouldn't LET Him. And then they have the nerve to blame Him! :| I've decided not to post here as much anymore, because of the diabolical sub-liminal brainwashing and reprogramming going on in their posts. It really is dangersous, and as unhealthy as asbestos, there should be a law against it. How perceptive of you, Dickie, to call me "Andrea E." in the heading of your post. That is how I'm going to refer to myself here from now on. You see, I've decided to not mention my last name here anymore, because I'm AFRAID of the EX-PREMIE CULT. :o Andrea E. :), Who thinks the ABUSE that happens here is just too much - ex-students asking all sorts of QUESTIONS, it's just TOO CRUEL. Well, ok, so maybe they haven't asked ME a lot of questions (because my Satsang is so powerful, it often can't be argued with), but there is always the THREAT of a question. And that's just as bad! :|

Subject: Re: Andrea E. can really swing that tray From: Cynthia To: Dickie Pwickie Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 19:53:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard, I have two sides to the arti story. You see, I really loved it when I got to swing that arti candle because it also meant I got to spoon out the foot water after everyone pranamed. Oh happy Day! I noticed guys and chicks swinging their butts to beat the band though probably out of sexual frustration. Nothing wrong with that, I watched...:) The whole ashram discipline was bizarre. On the other hand, I hated the length of that song and I didn't know the Hindu words because I think I have a Hindu language block. I just don't jive with that particular language. Arti seemed like it would never end especially at night. Being a self-conscious church lady back then I would never have swung my butt while doing the candle gig, just out of respect for the ghee candle, not to mention GMJ. I was such a gullible gopi when I lived in the ashram I was SHOCKED when I found out some of my fellow ashramers smoked cigarettes. I was a goner. Somehow I made it out... The dancing styles of the arti tray swingers is a humourous memory. Love, Cynthia

Subject: I used to get all emotional at arti From: Livia To: Jerry Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 15:50:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh dear, I used to get all emotional at arti. I used to gaze at his picture and sing the first bit 'you are my mother' and all that, with tears running down my face. And then the long bit - we learnt the Sanskrit words 'jai guru deva Maharaj Ji, vina nahita kari' and on and on it went. I think I learnt the whole thing in Sanskrit at one time. I used to like the English words too - to me they seemed like eternal wisdom and I loved it. Even learnt how to swing that old arti tray. It all seems so long ago now. I still think the intention was kind of sweet at the time. I meant it anyway and I think we all did, or most of us. Love, Livia in a slightly wistful mood

Subject: Re: I used to get all emotional at arti From: Bai Ji To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 20:22:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dearest Livia, Arti was the epitomie of all my Longing. I also used to weep throughout. As recently as 4 months ago I sang it with a Premie friend of mine in my loungeroom, reduced to tears of separation. I even went through the motions of tray swinging and imagining Him sitting there in front of me. I must admit it was the last gasp of desparation as I had been reading F7 sporadically by then. If you are really a glutton for punishment, I shall send you the lyrics to a song I wrote for Him on His birthday. Lotsa Love to you, Keep up the Heroic writing. Love Bai Ji XXX

Subject: Good old Dep Dog... From: PJ To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 08:26:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you're one of the few who talks any sense at all around here these days.

Subject: Dep Dog and you could start From: PatC To: PJ Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 11:41:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a New Age forum for spiritual exes. There are probably more of them than us old atheist curmudgeons. You would be doing a service.

Subject: I don't know, Pat, if... From: PJ To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:36:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you're being serious here or ribald. I like your posts too. I find it very amusing how you often try to faintly excuse yourself for meditating. You seem to find a great fount of love thereby, which you are at pains often to slightly downplay, to avoid besmirching your atheist credentials. For myself, I find meditation to be exactly that - an entry to an inexhaustible supply of love. I don't, however, in the slightest feel that this is at variance with having a very sound and practical approach to life. Sense and inspiration should be blended together in harmony - don't you agree? I don't think you're an atheist at all, Pat (and suspect you, too, know this). It's just how you've previously defined God. To me, God is pure love, which I find in meditation. Love blends perfectly with good sense. I think with your 'atheism' you're really talking belief systems. Why don't you just come out and say it - you believe love is the source of all, and that's why you love meditation. That doesn't make you an atheist. Do you want to say something about this? Thank you for all your often beautiful postings. With best wishes.

Subject: Re: I don't know, Pat, if... From: PatD To: PJ Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 17:46:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To me, God is pure love, which I find in meditation. You're off on a frolic,whoever you are.For myself I find that since stopping meditation(because of its association with a lying gobshite)my relationships with my loved ones have improved no end. I no longer have to try & put a brave face on my irritation when someone interrupts my communion with the inner god,because I don't commune any more. And funnily enough,once the initial shock of realising I'd been suckered wore off,I felt exactly the same 'within inside' as I'd felt whilst wasting my time trying to turn myself into a blissful goon. Whatever love may be,a fascinating question down the ages & one still unanswered,I now know through bitter experience that the notion it can be tapped into like an oil well is bullshit. What's this 'pure' shit? Two words for you pal,the 2nd one is 'off'. Please don't take offence,but then you wouldn't anyway would you,seeing as how you're plugged into the all compassionate.Just look down on scumbags like me & smile that enigmatic smile of enlightenment. ps. what's your opinion on the little fat bastard meditation teacher who used to call himself Perfect Master/Satguru/Lord of the Universe? I've forgotten his name.

Subject: Love is the source of all? From: Jim To: PJ Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 16:12:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Last time I looked, love was an emotion. How does an emotion become the source of all? Or is this also undefineable? :)

Subject: Energy and love are one! From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 18:57:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (Proverbs 16:32, John 4:24, etc. etc.)

Subject: Amen brother. The sun loves me! From: Tonette To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 23:36:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh happy day. All I've got to do is bask in the ultraviolet rays from the largest energy source sustaining this Earth and I will have, find, feel love! And for those dark, cloudy, overcast days, or it happens to be night and I'm needing a dose of love, I'll just stick a kitchen knife into the nearest electrical outlet.

Subject: To Tolette From: Dep To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 19:27:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh happy day. All I've got to do is bask in the ultraviolet rays from the largest energy source sustaining this Earth and I will have, find, feel love! And for those dark, cloudy, overcast days, or it happens to be night and I'm needing a dose of love, I'll just stick a kitchen knife into the nearest electrical outlet. --- I don't see what these comments have to do with the Bible quotes.

Subject: I was not responding to the bible quotes From: Tonette To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 01:15:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My comments were in responce to the heading on your post, 'Energy and love are one.' But since you brought it up, can you explain how your statement, energy and love are one, relates to the bible quotes? Or just explain your thinking, 'energy and love are one.' Tonette

Subject: You could make money out of that From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:50:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If Aken-aten could make a decent living out of a sun-worship cult maybe you could start a ''stick a knife in a plug'' cult.

Subject: Think so? If I was gonna start a cult here's how, From: Tonette To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 06:36:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, you definately have to use the God is energy angle or any variation thereof. However, I think my skills would be far more valuable if I let's say, opened up one's third eye permanently. Yes, a 4mm burr hole smack dab in the middle of the forehead. The highest chakra uninhibited, flowing from and with the energy that surrounds us. A fancy initiation cermony, with lots of local anesthesia. Oh and you could only be chosen if you had adopted a certain prepardness. Like having to grow bangs as a sign. Gotta hide that hole in your head someway, otherwise someone might call the authorities on me. But lucrative it could be. Neurosurgeons charge big bugs for a little drill work. But since I would be the realized one, I could charge double! This could work. Interested in a little side work, Pat? We could skip the burr hole but you would definately need bangs and a robe. Tonette

Subject: Re: Trepanning From: Livia To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 07:32:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's got a name, hasn't it - trepanning? People really do this! I read a whole book about it once, I think it was by Colin Wilson. Although I think the hole is at the back of the head - probably cosmetically better that way - no need to grow the bangs then if bangs don't suit you. Love, Livia

Subject: You're right, trephining From: Tonette To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 08:22:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One of the oldest surgical procedures on the books. How old? I would have to look that up but goes way back. Way before Christ. Actually the first trephinings were done at the top of the head. To let out evil spirits, to relieve agitation, to cure insanity. The interesting thing about trephining is that it's making a comeback! There's a sub culture that belives it is a good method to use for curing depression and a smaller subculture that actually believes it gives spiritual power. I'm not making this up! The hole was/is never drilled at the back of the head. Cerebral spinal fluid would leak out and the Cerebullum is there, the root of our brain that contols hearthbeat and breathing. So bangs are not an option I'm afraid. And we're talking location, location, location with my new cult! Gotta go for the third eye. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: Amen brother. The sun loves me! From: Tonette To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 23:36:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh happy day. All I've got to do is bask in the ultraviolet rays from the largest energy source sustaining this Earth and I will have, find, feel love! And for those dark, cloudy, overcast moments I'll just stick a kitchen knife into the nearest electrical outlet.

Subject: Oh, great, Dog's bible thumping now From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 19:52:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you're going to cite the bible you might as well be courteous enough to quote it rather than send us fetching for these bones of wisdom. That's your job, dog: Proverbs 16:32 He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city. John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. So what was your point? How does any of this religious tripe speak to the issue?

Subject: Welcome, PJ. I was being serious From: PatC To: PJ Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 13:45:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The last time I was talking to Jim on the phone I said to him: ''You do realize that New Ajism is now mainstream. It's in all the women's magazines. We're outnumbered. It's practically a lost cause.'' Atheism is still a dirty word in the USA. Nearly everyone believes in god. The more educated may no longer subscribe to a mainstrean religion but they, like you, believe stuff like ''God is pure love.'' I simply call all non-mainstream religons ''New Ajism'' and there are far more theists than atheists including among exes. So I was serious when I suggested a New Age Forum as I don't have the time or inclination to discuss god anymore. You said: ''I think with your 'atheism' you're really talking belief systems. Why don't you just come out and say it - you believe love is the source of all, and that's why you love meditation. That doesn't make you an atheist. Do you want to say something about this?'' No, PJ, I am not talking about belief systems - by which I think you mean religion as opposed to gnosticism such as K. I honestly don't ''believe'' in Santa or god anymore and I don't care if there is a god or not. It is irrelevant. I may have once believed that love was the source of all - but that's all that was - just another belief system. Love, well, that's the topic of a whole nother essay which I don't have the time to write now but suffice it to say that, eventhough it may only be a biological phenomenon necessary to life as a human being, it is what sets human apart from animals and is therefore to be treasured. I look forward to discussing this with you once I have more time. Does PJ stand for Premie Ji?

Subject: Thanks Pat C for.. From: PJ To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 07:14:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: totally ruining my meditation.:-) I was just beginning when a great Light hit me right between the eyes.. You're always pontificating against New Ajism, somewhat like a dog scratching permanently against a post, trying to rid itself of a worrying tick. Quite disturbing really... I've also watched you, in recent weeks, gushing out 'love' fulsomely by the barrel-load everywhere in sight, sometimes, it seems, to people you've never met in real life, and who maybe appear here as desirable projections of their possibly quite different personalities. Conversely, I've seen you trample people quite mercilessly (I'm excluding the more obviously psychotic), sometimes because they have said something quite innocuous, and just don't fit into your notions of conceived great and good. This to me seems to be quite the whole essence of New Ajism, an unreal, inflated adulation for one's own group, while raising a metaphorical dog's leg to the rest. Quite strange really... Real love is caring for others despite their perceived faults, because you share a common humanity and life spirit. That isn't New Ajism but quite Old Ajism. Cynthia - Greetings, I don't really want to get into who I am, because I don't intend to post here much. I just said that to Pat C above because it had been screaming out at me for some weeks. He most definitely has his good side. Thanks for posting that great poem by Ferlinghetti the other week. I've always liked his work, and took that post as an excuse to go out and get totally inspirationally pissed.. I've got a two page hand-written letter from him, signed Lawrence. (Treasured possession). Dog - Go get 'em boy. Your posts are always uplifting, and dispel the gloom which sometimes accumulates here. Regards to all.

Subject: PJ, you're not the first premie From: PatC To: PJ Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 11:13:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......who has tried to psycho-analyse me on the forums. I know I am an absolute cipher to premies. They can tell that I am a friendly and fairly loving person but they can't understand why it is that I have no tolerance for their religion or their deceitful mental gymnastics. You said: ''I've also watched you, in recent weeks, gushing out 'love' fulsomely by the barrel-load everywhere in sight, sometimes, it seems, to people you've never met in real life, and who maybe appear here as desirable projections of their possibly quite different personalities.'' I take people at face value but I also have no tolerance for insincerity, game-playing and deception. I see that Catweasel is boasting on other forums that he is posting on F7 inspite of being blocked and hinted that he is posting as PJ. Care to comment? You: ''Real love is caring for others despite their perceived faults, because you share a common humanity and life spirit.'' That is pure New Age relativism. I will love someone inspite of their faults if those faults are not truly misanthropic or dysfunctional. I will also criticise my loved ones' faults because I do care for them. Love does not mean tolerating faults. Well, perhaps guru-worship means tolerating faults. You say love is not New Ajism but Old Ajism. I agree but what category does devotional love for Prem fall into? Guru-worship is not part of the Old Age western religious tradition. It is pure Hinduism. When a primitive prescientific religion like gurujism is espoused by westerners - that's New Ajism.

Subject: PJ sounds fake to me... From: Marshall To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 13:27:08 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Pat C. That was quite brilliant, young man. I very much agree with what you've said and would like to add my twopence. I think it is unrealistic to have 'unconditional love'(except with pets), there have to be boundaries and limits or you risk harming your self respect. Self respect is important to me, as is living free from denial. My intuition tells me that PJ is a fake. Probably that awful Roupell chap or one of his comrades. I read in one post a few weeks back where Roupell claims being several forum regulars, including me! What a laugh! I'm sure Roupell would prefer to be me if he could, but fortunately I am me and he is he(idiot). Bye, Marshall

Subject: General Denial From: PJ To: Marshall Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 03:47:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, I'm not David Roupell, nor Catweasel, but I'd be interested to see the reference where the latter claims to be me. PJ are the initials of my name. I don't feel like going into any further details at the moment, as it gives some people the opportunity to immediately shower you with their own preconceptions and use you as a football. If I post more, I'll do it gradually, and about specific issues. Cheerio. (World Cup fever...)

Subject: Re: General Duh From: Marshall To: PJ Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 09:11:37 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Oh uh OK, well if you say so PJ, that's good enough for me. The reasons I had for doubting your honesty was the timing of your sudden and unannounced arrival here co-inciding with several boasts by Roupell and Catweasel of 'infiltrating' F7 with 'new, secret I.D.'s. You've got to be able to see the obvious conclusion one could make there? No? What do you expect anyway with your attitude? A red carpet?

Subject: I'm willing to wait re: PJ... From: Cynthia To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 14:37:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marshall, How are you? I was so shocked to learn you were given k at age 7 that I couldn't reply at the time. I simply did not know what to say. I think that fact alone gives you license to call Pat a young man.:) I don't know anything about PJ because I just noticed the appearance, that's why I asked PJ directly. Truth be told, I didn't even get the premie ji reference. I know folks who have those initials for names. We shall see...(sigh...) The weather is wonderful here! Warm, sunny and no humidity--this crisp New England air is intoxicating. Hummingbirds are back and one 8 oz. feeder attracts dozens all day. I've got to get another. Be well, Love, Cynthia

Subject: Hello, Cynthia.. From: PJ To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 03:36:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm just trying to recover from being confused with both Catweasel and David Roupell. That's good going after just posting a couple of times. I've been following this forum for a couple of months, with great interest. The only thing I don't like about it is the strident polarization that takes place. It seems to me it would work better if it was a place where anyone could come and state their views, without running the immediate risk of being incinerated. I see it really as a continuation of the company of truth of old days (in a secular sense, of course). Life is a continuous unfolding of truth, and it would be good if this could continue in the same company as in the past. Various posters here are old friends of mine.. I left a message for you in my last post to PatC - entitled Thanks Pat C for... His reply is below mine in the ladder. I'm sorry that the face shown in mine is the one with diagonal black eyebrows. I can't quite figure it's meaning, but it looks a bit menacing. I've never done an emoticon, and intended the smiling yellow face.

Subject: strident polarization... From: Cynthia To: PJ Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:08:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PJ, If you've only been reading for a couple of months then you don't really have much background for making judgments. Frequently when new posters come here they have a complaint about the forum. Complaints of all sorts. You have to understand that many exes here have been talking to eachother for quite some time, some know eachother outside of the computer machine and by phone. Some have formed friendships through talking to eachother here for a long time. There's no specific premise here except that Guru Maharaji Ji/Maharaj Ji/Maharaji/Prem Pal is a fraudulent conman dressed up as many things. That's the premise here right from the get-go. You can argue points but expect to be refuted because of this main premise: Ex-Premies. I'm not sure what your phrase 'strident polarization' means in the context of your newness here. Think of it as a room that's inhabited by many people who have exited the Maharajism cult. Everyone is in their own stage of recovery. There are many different types of folks here. There are intelligent, demanding discussions which require the exercise of the mind. Most new people introduce themselves in some way in order to let us understand where their coming from. Given the number of ugly trolls like the Doc (Roupell) and Catweasel and many incarnations of their warped imaginations, I just think you're too quick to judge the reception committee here. Besides, you never said anything about yourself you just hopped in. Can't you at least say when you received K? Think of this: if you walk into a local bar knowing it must have regulars, all of them do, sit down, listen to their conversations for a couple of months, then all of a sudden start talking about how much is wrong with them, well, you'll probably be tossed or ostracized. At the very least asked questions about yourself. This isn't a bar, it's much, much more than that. Frankly, I don't see why ex-premies or premies would come to an cult-awareness site such as EPO (btw, have you read it?) then to the forum, where people are working out the mindfuck of goomraji, and expect discussions about other 'paths to truths.' Especially because if you go to Google, type in ''teachings'' you'll get 1,150,000 possible hits on any guru, meditation lessons, and new age stuff (that's not including the links you find within those 1,150,000 teachings). Enough searching for a lifetime! Don't disrespect the people here please, PJ. And, if you'd like to know about emoticons, click on the Symposium link above and you'll find on that forum page another link to using emoticons. Just take it easy. Get a feel for the place, if it's not for you, then it's not for you.:) Regards, Cynthia

Subject: Who're you calling ''young man?'' From: PatC To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 13:37:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm old enough to be your father. Even if he isn't a fake, he's a phony. Well, to me all that spiritual crap is espoused by phony people. Also I've never understood people who suddenly appear and begin posting anonymously without at least telling us a bit about themselves first.

Subject: true true From: Marshall To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 13:47:42 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Good point, my father is 55. Yeah man, I agree all that 'spiritual crap' has got to go. What is wrong with these people? Low self-esteem? That's what I think. I bet PJ is long gone.

Subject: Re: Welcome, PJ. I was being serious From: PJ To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 02:54:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does PJ stand for Premie Ji? Don't be corny

Subject: Good old PJ. Excellent post! From: Dep To: PJ Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 13:14:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you're being serious here or ribald. I like your posts too. I find it very amusing how you often try to faintly excuse yourself for meditating. You seem to find a great fount of love thereby, which you are at pains often to slightly downplay, to avoid besmirching your atheist credentials. For myself, I find meditation to be exactly that - an entry to an inexhaustible supply of love. I don't, however, in the slightest feel that this is at variance with having a very sound and practical approach to life. Sense and inspiration should be blended together in harmony - don't you agree? I don't think you're an atheist at all, Pat (and suspect you, too, know this). It's just how you've previously defined God. To me, God is pure love, which I find in meditation. Love blends perfectly with good sense. I think with your 'atheism' you're really talking belief systems. Why don't you just come out and say it - you believe love is the source of all, and that's why you love meditation. That doesn't make you an atheist. Do you want to say something about this? Thank you for all your often beautiful postings. With best wishes. --- PJ, I totally agree with your take on Pat. Very insightful. Right on! 'I think with your 'atheism' you're really talking belief systems. You believe love is the source of all, and that's why you love meditation. That doesn't make you an atheist.' Jeez, I wish I'd said that. Keep em coming PJ! =)

Subject: In shock... From: PJ To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 03:53:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Dog, I hope you're still speaking. In the first couple of hours of posting here, I have been accused of being both David Roupell and Catweasel. Hmm. Can I sue for libel? PJ are the initials of my name.

Subject: Re: In shock... From: PatC To: PJ Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 11:08:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PJ, at the time CW dropped his hint, Chuck said to me that he could just be trying to make us suspicious of you. If you've been reading the forum for a while, then you will have seen what the cultheads like Roupell/CW et al do in order to sow distrust and disrupt the forum. The other thing that made me leery of you is your smart-arse remarks and sassy tone of voice. I made the same mistake when I first started posting and got in trouble too. Try landing your plane at a less steep angle. :C)

Subject: The source of it all From: Jerry To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 19:42:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder if it's possible to know such a thing as the 'source of it all'. Now mind you, I think I know what you're talking about, because I've had my moments of wholeness where I felt in touch with the 'source of it all' myself. But from a scientific perspective, just because we feel with our human consciousness that we've touched the source, or vice versa, does that mean we actually have, or do we just think that way? Do you understand what I'm driving at? Is the 'source of it all' really that, or is it just a modern day pagan in our minds? In other words, are we reading it right what we experience in mystical moments? I wonder.

Subject: Re: The source of it all From: Livia To: Jerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 02:24:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The trouble is, it can't be proved. If those 'mystical' moments, whatever they are, inspire us to live with more integity, kindness, love, tolerance etc etc then they're probably a good thing, that's what I think! And if they don't have any effect on our character whatsoever then they are altered mental states and probably not much else. I've read stories of people who have come back from near death experiences and have been transformed by them in a very positive way, and I find those stories very interesting, even inspirational. The relevance, importance and desirability of all these experiences of altered consciousness must hinge on the effect they leave on you. Otherwise what's the point of people reading such significance into them? Livia

Subject: Re: The source of it all From: Dep To: Jerry Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 20:57:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder if it's possible to know such a thing as the 'source of it all'. Now mind you, I think I know what you're talking about, because I've had my moments of wholeness where I felt in touch with the 'source of it all' myself. But from a scientific perspective, just because we feel with our human consciousness that we've touched the source, or vice versa, does that mean we actually have, or do we just think that way? Do you understand what I'm driving at? Is the 'source of it all' really that, or is it just a modern day pagan in our minds? In other words, are we reading it right what we experience in mystical moments? I wonder. --- When we feel we've touched the source does that mean we actually have, or do we just think that way? Are we reading it right what we experience in mystical moments? I wonder. Ram Dass - who has been villified on this site - uses the term intuitive validity to describe the feeling of being at source. Gut feelings and hunches are by nature subjective. You are not just kidding yourself you just know. Ever had one of those? Hard to explain that scientifically. Kids have it and dogs have it. But many of us get so cluttered and entrained with our self talk that our intuition gets clouded over or drowned out. Remember that scene in Star Wars when Luke was told to turn off the automatic weapons system and trust the Force. Many athletes say they perform at their best when they trust their intuition. They just know where the ball is going to be. Many inventors say ideas just come to them in dreams, and many songwriters like Paul McCartney say that they don't write songs they just transcribe them. The song already existed, they just wote it down. I say if we have sufficient facts and we have a hunch to go along with it, we are reading it right. We need reason and intuition, not just reason alone.

Subject: Re: The source of it all From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 02:33:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's all fine Dep, but do you have to read such definitive, 'spiritual' meanings and interpretations into all this? Sportsman call it 'the zone'. Artists, musicians, writers, most creative people have found they can access inspiration better when then they are in a certain state - some people refer to it as the working of the right hand side of the brain. I don't think anyone here would have any problem with acknowledging that extraordinary things can happen when you are in the zone, or operating from the right hand side of your brain or whatever you want to call it. Extraorinary things obviously do happen. But why do some people have the need or inclination to categorise the experience? It's something wonderful that can happen, and it's probably a good thing if it happens to you a lot, particularly if you can act on it to the good. But why the need to put it into a box labelled 'spiritual' or whtaever? Livia

Subject: Re: The source of it all From: Jerry To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 02:54:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, Athletes, musicians, even inventors are all highly trained specialists in their fields. They didn't just develop those skills overnight through intuition, but for those who have had years of training in specific areas, I agree, sometimes thinking about it too much can just get in the way of performance. After all, it's already ingrained in your subconscious as a result of years of training, which I believe is what your gut feelings are about. It's instinct. Just go with that. I agree. Get out of your own way as they say. But mysticism, the sense that your in the presense of the 'source'? That's something different. Yes, it's an intuitive feeling, but it bears closer examination than these other intuitions. I can't help but think if I'm on the right track, or not, in believing I've been touched by God. Something (call it intuiton?) tells me there's something more at play than just what it feels like. But to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if I never get to the bottom of it. It just fades into mystery. Maybe that's all it can ever be.

Subject: Yoda, you're not, after all From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 21:05:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're really Jar Jar Binks, aren't you? Silly, irrational and non-responsive. What about Socrates, by the way?

Subject: Don Rickles, you're not, after all [nt] From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 21:44:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Oh Puleeze, Pat... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 11:52:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A new age forum? Now you've got me laughing. You're being silly, of course, right?;)

Subject: No, I think he was being serious From: Tonette To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 02:39:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat was talking about helping someone set up and have them, the volunteer(s) act as FA of a 'spiritual ex' forum. I thought Janet was interested perhaps. I know Deputy Dog thought it was a good idea. A place where unspiritual oafs like myself would avoid since I can't possibly imagine what I would have to say there. A thread like the one down below with referance to the book 'Be Here Now,' could flourish in all it's splendor with narry a discouraging word. We're talking the sharing of homeopathic remedies to potentiate meditation experiences and accu pressure point identification in order to enhance your oneness. The possibilities are endless for a forum like this. It could spawn a few budding new Guru's. Never know. Wierder things have happened. Take care. I sent you an email, BTW. Love, Tonette

Subject: Exactly, Tonette. I was serious From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 11:59:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know from the email I get from exes that there are more ''spiritual'' exes than us heathens and they may need a forum. Right now they talk on RE and by email to each other. Eventhough I have no sympathy for that sort of stuff anymore, I know that a lot of exes would like to talk about astrology, shamanism and use words like centering, grounding, finding one's heart etc etc. And some would like to channel Mary Jane. But it seems that only Janet was interested and she's a smarty who knows how to set up a forum by herself. I'll help if needed and I'll stay away from it too. I prefer using plain English.

Subject: You serious? From: Jim To: PJ Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 08:31:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you're one of the few who talks any sense at all around here these days. --- What do you mean?

Subject: Sorry to miss you out... From: PJ To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:05:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim. I see you and Dog like Ivan Skavinsky Skivar and Abul Bul Amir, locked in permanent whirling combat til you merge together. I'm glad that Dog usually comes out a little ahead, however, as he embodies some indefinably more humanitarian principle than you. That's not to say I don't like your contributions - indeed, they're one of the reasons I end up here day after day when I should rightly be enmeshed in other projects. They're often brilliant, and I've had many excellent laughs and insights - thanks. It's just that you're a bit - cruel?? And that's why Deputy Dog has more sense than you. With best wishes, however.

Subject: Re: Sorry to miss you out... From: Livia To: PJ Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 16:00:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry to be contentious after my wistful outbreak above, but what do you mean by humanitarian? To be quite honest, I've never found New Ageism to be particularly humanitarian per se - it just likes to think it is, that's all. I think people are either humanitarian by nature, or not. New Ageism doesn't seem to make them so if they aren't already. In fact, to be quite honest, I've met more insufferably pompous, arrogant, self-important, deluded people amonst the New Age fraternity than in any other social group I've ever encountered. Including premies. Behind their soft voices and sweet smiles often lurks spiritual one-upmanship of a particularly loathsome order. Humanitarian? Hmmmmm......narcissitic maybe.... Livia

Subject: Re: Sorry to miss you out... From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 02:32:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia re 'New Age fraternity' Behind their soft voices and sweet smiles often lurks spiritual one-upmanship of a particularly loathsome order. LOL :) You really cut to the chase Livia, brilliant, no fence-sitting here, no hedging of bets - just a full on opinion. Keep em coming. No disagreement from me BTW. Would love to discuss with you, offline, your views of the UK political landscape some time. That would be interesting! Back with full powers I see - hope you are well? Love, Thorin ps Did Postman Pat arrive ok? Chat soon eh? I am away Sunday lunch to Monday pm late.

Subject: Ouch! Nice one, Livia. [nt] From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 16:31:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Uh, okay (?) From: Jim To: PJ Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:15:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim. I see you and Dog like Ivan Skavinsky Skivar and Abul Bul Amir, locked in permanent whirling combat til you merge together. I'm glad that Dog usually comes out a little ahead, however, as he embodies some indefinably more humanitarian principle than you. That's not to say I don't like your contributions - indeed, they're one of the reasons I end up here day after day when I should rightly be enmeshed in other projects. They're often brilliant, and I've had many excellent laughs and insights - thanks. It's just that you're a bit - cruel?? And that's why Deputy Dog has more sense than you. With best wishes, however. --- Let me guess. That 'indefinably more humanitarian principle' is a little hard to talk about, right? But you know what you're talking about nonetheless? Yeah, thought so. By the way, what did the little kid call his older brother when he told him there really was no Santa Claus? That's right. He called him 'cruel'. What do you believe in anyway?

Subject: PJ, are you new here? From: Cynthia To: PJ Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:14:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear PJ, I've never seen your PJ handle before so I'm just wondering who you are. Would you care to tell us more about yourself? Cynthia

Subject: Re: PJ, are you new here? From: cq To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:32:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think PJ doesn't post too often, but he/she has given some honest feedback. Surely that's the criterion of judgement here? (and don't go listening to those idiots who have bought into concept that 'judgement is, because M says so, a bad thing') Let's face it - this Forum *should* (if I can use that tremendously fascistic word ... thinks - tremendously means what?) anyway, this Forum *should* be about people - of all shapes, sizes and affiliations - telling it how it is/seems to them. Shouldn't it? If this public conduit of popular opinion ever becomes a Forum where the people who challenge the 'popular' opinion of its regular posters are consequently censored as being unacceptable, then that's the day that I ... oh shit .. you mean it's 'us and them'? ooops, signed, sealed, delivered, ... pissed on a Bank Holiday weekend ... Chris

Subject: Re: PJ, are you new here? From: Cynthia To: cq Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:42:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's fine with me. I just never notice a PJ posting until recently:) No problem, just was wondering... Cynthia

Subject: What are you talking about? From: Jim To: cq Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:41:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What are you talking about, Chris? How is asking someone their opinion 'censorship'? What are you drinking, by the way?

Subject: My opinions are valid too... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:47:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, I'm getting a little bit tired of not being able to have an opinion here just because I've been a 'regular' here for some time, you? In my most humblest opinion, PJ recently appeared here and I know nothing about this individual. That's why I was asking. Do you know anything about PJ? As for Dep, well, if he would answer my posts, I could have some real dialogue. Maybe:) Love, Cynth

Subject: Opinions From: JHB To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 15:10:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynthia, I'm not sure what you appear to be upset about, but your posts are always readable, and I find myself agreeing with most of what you say, and not seriously disagreeing with anything. I agree PJ should introduce him/herself a little, rather than just stepping in to the Dep/Jim argument, but as always, I'll give him/her the benefit of the doubt. BTW, Dep conceded to me that he has no evidence that his experiences in meditation are anything more than subjective feelings. I suspect he doesn't believe this, but he had no argument to support what he really does believe. But I want to talk about opinions. Sometimes I've noticed people saying they're entitled to their opinions. Well, of course they are. But opinions are worth far more if they are backed up by sound research and reasoning. I think sometimes people use their right to have an opinion as an excuse not to do the research, or to use their ability to reason. I'm certainly not saying you are doing this here, but it's just that the title of your post reminded me of this. All the best, John.

Subject: Re: Opinions From: Dep To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 19:18:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, IMO opinions necessarily take place at the mind or verbal level. Someone has a more convincing or plausable story than someone else, so we go believe them. As you say, 'opinions are worth far more if they are backed up by sound research and reasoning.' But how do you prove something that has no words (meditation) or that is difficult to put into words (music). I guess there will always be people that don't believe in words and symbols. The words 'glass of water' do not quench thirst. Imagine that you had an incredibly powerful sexual experience with your lady, and had to come up with reasons and an argument to prove that it. Could you do it? Would you want to? IMO it's all subjective really. One guy goes to sleep in a traffic jam; while another guy goes into a rage and rips the steering wheel off his car. Isn't it the same traffic jam for both?

Subject: Re: Opinions From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 02:38:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, I think you need to look to your use of the word 'lady'. Really. Call me narrow-minded but to me men who use the word 'lady' instead of 'woman' are in serious danger of being stuck in some kind of (dodgy) hippy time warp. Think about it. Please. Livia (she's no lady)

Subject: Re: Opinions - Livia From: Dep =) To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 14:43:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, You are absolutely right. Such term as 'ladies' and 'gentlemen' are definitely passé. Old fashioned guys like me need a reminder now and then. Thanks! But don't you think 'girlfriend' is a bit much for people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s? 'Spouse' sounds weird too, don't you think. Some people don't even like it when you use 'woman.' For example 'My woman and I went downtown yesterday.' Instead of 'lady' I should have used - partner, or - significant other. How about these substitutes for 'lady' - sexual associate - copulation colleague - conjugal teamate - female companion - oppositely gendered collaborator (Don't you just love the sterile, corporate tone to the last one?)

Subject: new terminology for a new world From: Livia To: Dep =) Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 15:39:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dep, glad you agree with me on that one. But yes, I agree with you that girlfriend sounds a bit young for a woman in her 50's. The trouble is, no new word has arisen for what is, after all, a relatively new phenomenon, when you think about it. People in their 40's and 50's in shifting relationships, I mean. A new word is probably needed, but nothing has come up that really works. I mean, oppositely gendered collaborator - did you just make that up??!! Partner's about the only one that sounds OKish, and even that sticks in the throat a bit, for want of a better turn of phrase, ahem. How about sexual co-conspirator?

Subject: You don't know how to use your mind From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 19:55:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's almost painful watching, Dog. But I guess this is the price of being spiritual these days. You have to settle down to the level of a dullard.

Subject: Further Clarification Re: Opinions From: JHB To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 15:24:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just reread my post, and I haven't expressed my thoughts clearly enough. What I want to say is that I don't think there is ever a need to use the 'right' to have an opinion as a reason for saying something. If we have something to say, we can simply say it, giving our reasons for doing so. It seems to me that by saying this is my opinion, we are cheapening our efforts to establish the truth in the matter. Just my opinion. John.

Subject: Re: Further Clarification Opinions From: Dep To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 20:19:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've too just reread my post, and I haven't expressed my thoughts clearly enough. Facts in themselves have no meaning; it is the stories we make up about those facts that give them meaning.

Subject: Re: Further Clarification Opinions From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 02:42:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Facts in themselves have no meaning; it is the stories we make up about those facts that give them meaning.' But Dep, what if we make up the wrong stories? And why make up stories at all? Why not just enjoy them and appreciate them for what they are - just facts? Livia

Subject: Re: Further Clarification Opinions From: Dep To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 21:49:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Facts in themselves have no meaning; it is the stories we make up about those facts that give them meaning.' But Dep, what if we make up the wrong stories? And why make up stories at all? Why not just enjoy them and appreciate them for what they are - just facts? Livia --- How do we make the stories go away?

Subject: Stories From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 04:34:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: By attempting to really clear your head and realise that's what they are - stories. By reading and considering and investigating other stories than the ones you've imbibed, to help give you the sense that the stories you've accepted as reality may not be the only stories with any apparent validity. By redeploying your innate sense of reason, which we were all born with - for a reason! None of this means you need ultimately abandon your original stories -but you will come back to them - if you decide to come back to them - more informed and definitely humbled. Warmly, Livia

Subject: To Dep re stories From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 04:42:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dep, I posted to you above - are you going to respond? I'd be interested to hear your comments. I won't be able to get back to you till the weekend as I'll be away. All the best to you, Livia

Subject: What about Socrates? From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 15:00:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, What about Socrates? You threw him out as support for your version of 'self-knowledge' but, as Pat painstakingly pointed out to you, Socrates was the exact opposite of you. Socrates was into using his mind and carefully considering arguments, examining, as need be, each and every word for its full implication. Do you now renounce Socrates as being too prickly for your tastes or what?

Subject: Re: What about Socrates? From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 15:05:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This just in from Rick Ross's 'Nothing is Good Enough Site' r.e., The Landmark Forum and Socrates. http://www.rickross.com/groups/landmark.html A Harvard Forum For Self-Promotion? Boston Globe/November 6, 1998 By Alex Beam The Harvard Business School seems to be out of the business of selling $6,000 videotapes with Rosabeth Moss Kanter droning out platitudes like 'Great companies are focused in their approach to doing business.' (They will, however sell you a $495, 30-minute video on 'Managing Future Performance.') Now the B-School has a brand-new bag: flacking for the 'personal development' seminar known as The Forum. The San Francisco-based Landmark Forum came into being when Werner Erhard (John Paul Rosenberg to his parents) sold the 'technology' for Erhard Seminars Training -- est -- to his brother Harry. The Forum, formally known as the Landmark Education Corp., has enjoyed considerable success with the self-actualization crowd, and with the Cambridge intelligentsia. That success is now chronicled in an HBS case study so sycophantic that Landmark has been using it -- improperly, Harvard says -- as a promotional tool. The document, originally written for classroom discussion, is also sold to the public. Last revised in April, it reads like a 22-page advertisement for Landmark's 'breakthrough in paradigm thinking.' Authored by professor Karen Hopper Wruck, the case breathlessly quotes Forum executives who compare their work to that of Galileo and Socrates (!). The study also quotes from a Forum-sponsored Daniel Yankelovich survey of graduates. Surprise! All six veterans of the Forum's weekend training quoted by Wruck loved it! Wruck quickly dismisses critics who call the Forum a cult. The Forum is listed on the Internet FACTnet database of 'cults, groups and individuals that are alleged to be using coercive persuasion mind control techniques,' but they have sued people who call them a cult. In an appendix, she quotes at length from four experts who insist the Forum is not a cult, but cites no contrary opinions. Had Wruck been seeking to find anyone critical of the touchy-feely Forum she needed only to cross the campus and chat with Radcliffe public policy fellow Wendy Kaminer. The Forum is the subject of acidulous commentary in Kaminer's best-selling book, 'I'm Dysfunctional, You're Dysfunctional.' 'If you want to experience or 'process' New Age's heady combination of pseudoscience, religion, and money,' writes Kaminer, 'visit a session or two of The Forum, the new incarnation of est.' In her defense, Wruck told me: 'I understood that it was a controversial company, but I wanted to study a company that directly addressed issues around human behavior. A case study is a pedagogical vehicle, not a position paper or an endorsement.' Harvard has affixed an unprecedented disclaimer ('Please be aware that . . . the school does not endorse this company or any other company') to the document. Mark Kamin, a Landmark spokesman, said his company ordered several thousand copies of the document after it was published. He adds that Landmark signed an agreement with Harvard not to use the case for promotional purposes, 'and we've endeavored to keep that agreement.' When I told him that a recent seminar attendee said the case was being used to puff Landmark, Kamin said, 'I can't guarantee that people who led seminars didn't say, 'Hey, there's this case study.'' So Jim, when are you signing up? VANCOUVER Landmark Education International, Inc. Suite 430, One Bentall Centre 505 Burrard Street P.O. Box 75 Vancouver, B.C. V7X 1M3 (604) 482-8000 Fax (604) 482-8008

Subject: Did Landmark send you, Dog? From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 17:35:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, Just reading over some articles about Landmark it's clear that once you're in, like you, you're pressured to sell the seminar to others. So who's idea was it, anyway, for you to start pitching Landmark here so strongly? By the way, how many people have you tried to take there? How many went? How many followed your footsteps and actually signed up? Do you see your efforts to recruit somehow tied to your own 'progress'?

Subject: Re: Did Landmark send you, Dog? From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 21:34:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, No they didn't send me here. Have had no contact with Landmark since I re-took the Forum last summer. They don't phone or write. I don't hang out with any Forum people either. Just telling you and others about something of value that will help. All my idea I'm afriad. No conspiracy. And how, pray tell, would my efforts to recruit be tied to my own 'progress'? =)

Subject: Re: Did Landmark send you, Dog? From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:55:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Scooby: ''And how, pray tell, would my efforts to recruit be tied to my own 'progress'?'' It would help you to bolster your own faith in your BS (belief system.) That's how. Isn't it obvious that you are preaching to yourself to boost your own faith? That's how all religion works from Maharajism to Landmark. It's a pyramid scheme of BS. The more people you get to believe in your BS the better you feel about believing your own BS.

Subject: Afraid to answer the question, Dog? From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 15:33:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To recap, you touted Socrates as someone who supported your approach to 'Self-knowledge'. Pat then went to some effort to show you what Socrates actually did which was to examine words and ideas as closely as possible, to analyse arguments with as much careful, critical scrutiny as he could. You then ignored Pat's or my questions about how you could ever reconcile Socrates' intellectualy rigour with your own sloppy, know-nothing (literally!) approach wherein you blythely eschew thinking and scientific knowledge as too 'prickly' for someone as 'gooey' as yourself. I then ask you again about Socrates. You then post this irrelevant article about your new pet cult, Landmark, and imply that, because one of the Landmark guys did as you did, invoke the name of Socrates as someone whose philosophy and approach to life supports his own, then he must be answering the original question, i.e. how does Socrates in any way jive with your appraoch? That's not an answer and you know it. You know, Dog, it's one thing to disagree about things here. It's another to waste peoples' time. Now are you going to answer the question or not? If not, perhaps you might ask yourself what right you have engaging anyone in any discussion here seeing as you'll just play the duck when convenient.

Subject: Re: Afraid to answer the question, Dog? From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 21:42:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, I don't know much about the Socrates. All I know about him is that he said, 'Know thyself,' and 'If I know one thing in life, it is that I know nothing.' Or something like like that. I paraphrase. Ask the Landmark people about it.

Subject: What a total goof you are! From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 13:38:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're worse than a cartoon character. How dare you throw Socrates at us without knowing -- or caring -- the least bit about what he's really all about. But the really funny part, the thing that makes you look like the total goof you are is suggesting that Landmark is the place to go to learn about him! Why? Because they used his name just like you did??

Subject: Doobie doobie doo. From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 01:07:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You: ''Facts in themselves have no meaning; it is the stories we make up about those facts that give them meaning.'' Are you stoned all the time or is it congenital. I think I'll call you Scooby Doo from now on. I hear such a disdain and disrespectfulness in your voice (and I'm not the only one) that I am beginning to doubt your sincerity. From now on I will be treating you as a time-wasting troll.

Subject: Re: Doobie doobie doo. From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 21:45:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hear such a disdain and disrespectfulness in your voice. What are you talking about?

Subject: I take it back, Scooby From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 00:52:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After I wrote that I had second thoughts about it. I'm sorry for saying it. Occassionally you come off as so fucking pious that you get my goat. Also I suspect you of playing games with people, not being totally sincere - like you're doing the fifth technique - you know, the tongue in cheek one where you think you know better than someone and are talking down to them? Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong Lawd you gonna miss me when I'm gone Jesus died to save our sins Glory to God I'm gonna see Him again Moses stood on the Red Sea shore Smotin' the water with a two-by-four (The Rock Island Line by Lead Belly)

Subject: About Opinions...;) From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 16:17:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, I apologize if I came across as upset or sarcastic, John, I didn't mean to at all. My writing often doesn't reflect my tone of voice or mood. I suppose I'm feeling a bit feisty today--I can smell soil and grass, and the rain, and stuff after a long winter. I'm not upset or angry at all about this discussion. I love constructive criticism if it is not given in a condescending way. I'm much more sensitive than I come across much of the time. I do agree that when one voices an opinion what follows must be some backup material. It's one thing I am stilling learning. One thing that I love about this forum is the demand for intelligent discussion and debate. I am lazy about this because I never developed the discipline of making references and footnotes. I find it tedious, but I understand that if one wants to be credible it's important to have some backup. What I wrote did not represent my actual mood, however. It was a wonderful and beautiful day here--I'm quite happy. In the world often my facial expressions don't match my tone of voice or my words (it's bizarre, but I work on it). It confuses my husband still... (actually annoys him):). Learning how to converse and debate rationally is one reason I stay here. Good mentors. BUT, I do wish more women would post. I love you guys but sometimes we wimen' need to discuss things too. Well, enought out of me Got to go for now, I'm cooking... Love to you, John Btw, it is zalot here and stunning, to take in so many different shades of green Cynthia

Subject: Thank you, Bai Ji!!! From: Inside Edition To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 21:36:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bai Ji, Thank you very much for posting this. I experienced practically everything that was written, but now I have also experienced that there indeed IS life after the cult, and that what goes around comes around. Thanks again!

Subject: Re: Thank you, Bai Ji!!! From: Bai Ji To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 21:25:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are MOST Welcome IE. Thank you for responding my new friend. XXXX

Subject: Bai JI , sweetie....... From: Vicki To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 01:34:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...PULL UP YOUR BOOT STRAPS AND GET WITH IT GIRL!!! Lest I remind you of my previous motherly nagging of hunting you down like a hound dog and dragging you out into the sunshine. Now listen up, and listen good. You are without a doubt, one of the most talented writers I have ever had the pleasure of reading. Quit self medicating and put pen to paper. Write a friggin' book on all this. Who better? Well, okay, just about everyone here, but you have the gift of gab me dearie. Don't squander it away. Times a wastin'. Get back in college and study again. You aren't too late. I'll tell you what I watched yesterday on television. An older lady started a doggie and music therapy duo for the university teaching hospital here. It was too fantastic. A young boy was in a coma due to brain injury from falling off a rope swing. They held out no hope for him. In came the golden retriever, climbed into bed with him, and he started thrashing around. He slowly came out of the coma. Over and over these animals took away, if only momentarily, the pain of children as young as four in for chemo. The lady was asked why these animals can cause such a response? She replied that animals have the capacity to unlock human emotions and bring about healing. I tell you this because it struck me how self centered the selfless knowledge caused premies to be. Caused us to think nothing else in this world was worthy. Not people, not love, not kindness, unless it was directed only in one direction. I think it made us sick. Your health is a gift. Go visit a cancer ward. Then be good to yourself.

Subject: Re: Bai JI , sweetie....... From: Bai Ji To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 18:14:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are Right. Thank You. Time to get on wid it!

Subject: I'm not nuts, eh? From: Gail To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 15:20:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have realized that I seem to have fragmented. Maybe this is normal. When I'm talking to myself, sometimes I refer to my self in the third person such as 'She ought to do this.' When I catch nyself, I say aloud, Whose she? Ususally I talk to myself in the second person as in 'Gail you ought to ....' So I guess I'm totally out of it, or are you like this too? I'm serious.

Subject: Hell no! You're not nuts. From: Tonette To: Gail Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 02:17:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I talk to myself in the second person occassionally. Especially if I've done something especially stupid. And I'll say outloud, 'Tonette how could you forget this, why did you do that, what were you thinking, ect. My mom used to talk to herself, outloud often. I'd catch her, sitting at the kitchen table, talking to herself. I'd want to know what she was ruminating about of course and she'd usually tell me. It was her way of figuring out a problem, or getting rid of a worry. She said that by talking to herself it kept her FROM going crazy! So you're no more nuts than the rest of us. That's saying something. Right? Or is it? Just kidding. Take care, Warmly, Tonette

Subject: No - and I love your posts. [nt] From: PatC To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 17:12:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: No, you're just fine. From: Marshall To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 14:35:05 (PDT) Email Address: None Message: Hi Gail, I like you, you have always struck me as a kind and funny person, kind of cynical too, but what do you expect? I was there when you first arrived here doubtful, scornful. I'm proud of you Gail, you made it out of a decietful cult. Give yourself a break, everyone talks to themselves, just internally, you were just 'speaking your thoughts'. Anyway take care, treat yourself like a queen! Bye, Marshall

Subject: Re: No, you're just fine. From: Gail To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 19:55:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Marshall. You're a sweetie!

Subject: try this From: janet To: Gail Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 01:14:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: look for books by John Bradshaw in the bookstores, and immerse yourself in anything he has put out about 'Boundaries' and how we lose them, how others break them, and how we can find them again and restore them to the rightful strength they ought to be. if there are exercises given to do, by all means, spend the time with yourself anf do them. expect deep changes as the real you wakes up and emerges. one simple one you can start doing already: every time you catch yourself speaking to yourself or referring to yourself in the third person [she] or second person [you], stop and deliberately reframe what's facing you as 'I'. I want. I think. I see. I know. I need. I feel. I have. I can. deliberately retrain yourself to consult yourself and listen to yourself, as to what is coming out of you, and not refer to anyone else and what they say or think or opine. It will have some unexpected effects, but all good ones. It sounds by your description like you got marginalized, pushed out to the edges, had your right to establish yourself as a valid person, invaded and stamped out, and someone took your rights away unto themselves and imposed their opinion over your natural choices. despair not. the original you is still in there, and all those 'others' are gone now. you can come out now. you can get to know yourself again. it's OK. you're built to work OK without them around. if you wonder and doubt about that?--just review all the things you have learned to do for yourself that nobody can do for you and never can: you learned to walk by yourself. you learned to eat by yourself. you learned to talk by yourself. you learned to read for yourself. you learned to write for yourself. you use a computer by yourself. you can lengthen the list as part of the exercise. keep going. add to it. keep thinking about yourself and what you can do that nobody has to do for you because you can do it yourself. the effect eventually should break whatever hold over you those 'outsiders' got upon your ability to know yourself from the first person, out. not all that surprising you would be noticing this landmark development in your awareness of how you are. by definition, joining a cult means surrendering doing your own knowing/ feeling/thinking and letting someone else tell you what you are. which is bullshit, thank you very much! so leaving it necessarily means discovering how much they invaded your sacrosanct rights to be you and know yourself. and exercises are good. consider it beginners assertiveness training. its a game of illusory 'chicken'. the other person cook you only up until you rise up and spook em back harder. then they quit and shut up and leave you alone so you can hear yourself think. as george zimmer says 'you're gonna like the way you look. I guarantee it.' not that what i have to say about how you look matters beans --- -!!!!!!!! got that? [lol lol lol lol] have fun. and kick out those interlopers. the only one who lives in your head is YOU!! as Ramtha said: no one can do the living for you, and certainly, no one does the dying, either.

Subject: Re: sorry-line correction here From: janet To: janet Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 01:22:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that should have read: its a game of illusory 'chicken'. the other person can spook you only up until you rise up, and spook em back harder. then they quit and shut up and leave you alone, so you can hear yourself think.

Subject: Re: I'm not nuts, eh? From: david m To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 17:52:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gail..hang in there I live in Detroit I must be nuts...seriously i thought your post was compelling..and I too would of done most anything for GMJ..I skipped out on jobs friends family to travel to see him ...Ireally think we were on the same ship...Peace...David

Subject: Actually, you're quite sane... From: Cynathia To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 15:46:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gail: I have realized that I seem to have fragmented. Maybe this is normal. When I'm talking to myself, sometimes I refer to my self in the third person such as 'She ought to do this.' When I catch nyself, I say aloud, Whose she? Ususally I talk to myself in the second person as in 'Gail you ought to ....' So I guess I'm totally out of it, or are you like this too? I'm serious. Gail, Sounds like you may be dissociating. It's a human thing to do and unless it interferes with normal (I hate that word) functioning nothing to worry about. I'm a bit educated on the topic of fragmentation. If you want to discuss this privately, please email me at: sylviecyn@yahoo.com. You're not insane, quite the contrary. But if you do feel seriously fragmented, it can be a crazy-making feeling if it's chaotic. You'll be fine, have patience with yourself. And again, feel free to email me. Love, Cynthia

Subject: I'm nuts too From: JHB To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 15:25:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gail, I do this sometimes too. I doubt it matters much:) John.

Subject: These are nuts (frm Lifes Grate) From: You guys wanna see nuts? To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 17:52:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: LOL Hey, you guys......Wow. I stay away for a few short months and --- -things change radically: Deb--who used to sound & feel like a bitter loon --- is, like, a cool person! I am blown away. Good job. I don't know all the machinations and all the history(the dark exchanges you refer to with Heller, Marianne, et.al.) but it's sweet to feel your kindness, Deb. Hey, Harry: love to hear that shit; testify, brother, testify. (Edotor's note: In all probability the multi-faceted David Anderson is Harry, LOL. What's this about me & Nigel? My short-term memory loss/inevitable senior-monent-itis has kicked in...somebody refresh my cannabis-encrusted neurotransmitters. And, BTW, life IS great. Knowledge is an amazing, powerful tool; Maharaji/Prem Rawat is a beautiful, loving teacher. I've said this before here, but it comes up again and again: Mr. Rawat is a man unafraid to fail spectacularly, process it quickly, and move on. He is my hero in this respect. He's totally fearless about taking risks in the service of his purpose: to place Knowledge in front of as many people as possible globally, with a total absence of 'trips' and cultural baggage --- to offer the highest common denominator to every single human who has an interst, feels a thirst. What a magnificent vision; AND--he's failed his way to immense success. Just like Edison. or Churchill. Or Jesus. Or hundreds of people that were undeterred by failure in advancing their skill level and producing their masterpiece due to the strength of their experience and motivation. Failure, in fact, is only failure, and negative or useless, unless you fail to humbly accept the lesson from it, and move on with joy. Just like any child that's ever been born into this world. How does a baby learn to walk? By failing until he succeeds; by not obsessing on pain or blame; by not being self-important in the arrogant, egotistical way. By knowing life is a beautiful, loving teacher; by acknowledging the magic and mystery that exists in us and around us at all times. Again: life is fookin' great, kids.......xoxo David Anderson or is that Andy Davidson?

Subject: I'm so grateful I'm gonna explode!!!!!!! From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 09:05:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Each drop Finally I've learned to count my blessings. You have made me realize and understand some very precious things in my life. Reminders comes in many ways. I am much more grateful now than I ever was before. Thank you so much, my dear master.. .. Kalpana Ellan Penang, Malaysia ********* The reason I was born Eleni Kyriakopoulou From Athens, Greece Last night listening to Maharaji I felt this overwhelming feeling that the reason I was born, the reason I was alive, was so that I could be with him, listen to him and drink the nectar of his presence. My heart exploded in this feeling, in gratitude, in wonderful awareness.

Subject: I thought it was 'grapeful.' From: WGB To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 04:20:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Which woulda made sense, even if you thought about it. And full of olives and feta. It *will* make you explode. Still, better than drinking the water. *Sam Condon (Bill, of the Wild Goose Cult)

Subject: Life is Grape From: PatC To: WGB Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 12:07:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sam, I just read your conversation with Catweasel on LG. You're banging you head against a brick wall. He knows that he comes off sounding insane but doesn't care. It's all a game to him. He's yanking your chain. But nice try anyway.

Subject: Without outside From: Dickie Pwickie To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 10:46:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Without outside Dickie Pwickie From the dumpster behind Trancas Market Malibooboo, CA When now I go within inside, I find That Place where you reside. If I can't travel that inside road, I think that I will just explode. Then everything within inside me, Will no longer reside within in me. And everything that I know is real, Without outside will now be I feel. So keep reminding me to breathe I pray, Or all within will be without one day. Without Prem's Self-Knowledge, now hear me shout, I'd be without outside with all my doubts.

Subject: Within Without Within From: Cynthia To: Dickie Pwickie Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 15:33:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard, You like that without onside thing do ya? And don't make fun of me aiamic pent-a-meters::) I'm sensitive. It's from the 'Last Temptation of Cheese and Crackers by Cynthia' Without outside is where I'll be Among the birds and maple trees. It's good to know within inside Was nothing more than Rawat's pride. The master says he lives within He shouts his lies and in that sin My ears snap shut amid his din. The world outside is my abode For there I never will explode There is no reason to implode For Rawat is a simple toad. Then either or and on and on Without outside I see real dawn. Without outside I see him gone.

Subject: Last Temptation of Cheese and Crackers - LOL From: Dickie Pwickie To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 20:02:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Far in! Your poem is so like totally kind of, you know, really just so way beyond this incredibly beautiful beauty within inside without which we'd be inside out and down and out. Besides, who cares what ameter you use, pent or otherwise? Why be subject to the boring rules of the Non-Self-Knowledged? It's just all so beautiful and life really IS fookin' great... ooops. Damnit! I just knocked over my bong and wasted some really good bhog prasad weed I scored from Hansi. That's my karma for tokin' and jokin'. D.P. aka Richard

Subject: Premie memorabilia From: Anandaji To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 21:36:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was cleaning my attic this week and came across a box of premie memorabilia. I quickly tossed it into the throw-away pile, but then retrieved it after a few minutes. I just couldn't so flippantly toss out the remnants of a 28 year odyssey. There are several 'And it is Divine's' and 'Divine Times.' There is a premie songbook and a few posters. The most evocative item for me is a large Millenium poster. 'To Houston or Bust, in God we Trust.' Millenium happened 3 weeks after I received K. What have you done with your memorabilia? Does anyone want this stuff? I read through one of the magazines. Weird. Very, very weird now that I am removed from what I once held so sacred. I think I am suffereing from post hypnotic stress syndrome. Anandaji

Subject: Re: Premie memorabilia From: janet To: Anandaji Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 01:33:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: so-- i was not the only one obsessed with reaming out the past in my closets this week! good job! I had a moment like that. I found a poster of MJ in his bare chested mala/krisha gear, i think from kissimmee, the night he danced [ but who the hell gives a fuck]..and at a later point found a poster tube with three posters of the Doors from a different obsessive time in my life. I lingered all of a moment over each, set them aside, went on cleaning, and found out the next day that my room mate put them out with the house trash and the city took them. oh well. BFD i dont feel the slightest wish to have them back. screw it. and more of the same await. i have a barrel full of similar posters i pulled out to go thru, yet. having set the precedent, the rest will be simpler. unless we want to make them an online gallery?

Subject: Re: Premie memorabilia From: Jean-Michel To: Anandaji Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 00:27:28 (PDT) Email Address: jmkahn@club-internet.fr Message: Some documents may be worth being included in EPO ! If you think some are, please let's discuss it.

Subject: JM-is this a good idea for epo? From: la-ex To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 05:51:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How about an appeal on the homepage for any old time premies to send in old dlm stuff?

Subject: What EPO needs and doesn't need From: JHB To: la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 09:33:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: La-ex, Between me and J-M we already have a lot of material to back up the quotes on EPO. Most of my stuff is still in England, but I've made arrangements to get my tapes from the late 70's so that I can add to the quotes on EPO. In particular, I think we need a hard hitting selection of 'surrender' quotes. I also have a fair number of magazines from that period. What would be good would be the more unusual, personal, stuff, like letters from Maharaji/DLM, that weren't in general circulation, particularly confidential stuff about DLM/EV organisational and financial matters. Also, recordings of 'restricted' events like ashram or instructor meetings. I don't think we need an ad on EPO. People who have this stuff tend to offer it anyway. To Anandaji, I would say keep the stuff. This was a very important time of your life, and if nothing else it's a reminder of how we are fallable. Look at it occasionally when you feel your ego growing:) John.

Subject: Remember when he was on Merv Griffin? From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 09:44:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have that tape though I don't know what condition it's in. It's a cassette audio tape. Wasn't there also a film or video on that special appearance?

Subject: Re: Remember when he was on Merv Griffin? From: la-ex To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 09:45:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yes, with the sitar music in the backround? also, the congressional speech in the late 70's....wonder who has a copy of that one?

Subject: Ever hear about this Mischler tape? From: la-ex To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 09:41:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A friend of mine said that he heard some tapes from Bob Mischler that caused him to leave around 1980 or so. In it, he said that the reason that m's eyes were so glassy on stage, especially when he had gone bacstage for awhile after his satsang ended, as that the backstage rerigerator was well stocked with champagne. These and other revelations on the tapes cause him to leave. Ever run across these tapes?

Subject: No, can you get them? From: JHB To: la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 10:04:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's clear from the tape with the deprogrammed premies that Mishler had kept quiet for a while after leaving, but then realised it was his duty to tell the truth. So it is very likely that apart from the radio and telephone interviews that he must have given other interviews. So if you, or anyone else, can track these down, I would be very interested in getting them on EPO. John.

Subject: Re: JM-is this a good idea for epo? From: Jean-Michel To: la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 06:04:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who's going to take care of the stocks ? Do you have a place to store all the stuff ? Not talking about the security/safety ....

Subject: Re: Premie memorabilia From: Brian Smith To: Anandaji Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 22:58:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Anandaji, Do not throw any of that stuff away. It might be good to preserve evidence of that old propaganda for the sake of bebunking the present and possible future revisionist positions. Check your personal email, I just sent you a message

Subject: Re: Premie memorabilia From: Marshall To: Anandaji Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 22:12:32 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Hi Anandaji, I have been wanting to get a hold of an old poster that said 'Discover the Sunny Kingdom Through Meditation', on it, it also depicts a shangri-la type landscape as the centerpiece. Got one of those? Heck, I want the posters, cool? Marshall

Subject: Re: Premie memorabilia From: Cynthia To: Marshall Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 08:06:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi All, I have quite a few things that I keep in a box in my office. Every blue moon I look inside; those items can be a real gauge for how far I've gone away from it all. I have many photos, too...

Subject: Next event. From: Sulla To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 20:47:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Subj: An event in Pasadena California, Saturday June 15th. Date: 5/29/2002 7:37:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: mailinglist@elanvital.org (Elan Vital) Maharaji has accepted an invitation to speak at an event in Pasadena California, Saturday June 15th. This event is open only to people from North America who have received the techniques of Self-Knowledge. The location of the event is: Pasadena Conference Center Exhibition Building 300 East Green Street Pasadena, California 91101 This event is scheduled to begin at 5pm. The registration fee will range from $65.00 to $80.00 On line registration will be available starting Friday, May 31st at www.elanvital.org/june2002event Please have your Smart card number available when you register. Seats will be assigned from the front of the hall on a first-come, first-served basis. If you are unable to pay for registration online, you will need to register at the hall. Please be aware that security measures will be in effect for entry into the venue. Allow ample time to arrive at the hall to check in. For updates to this announcement, please check the event website www.elanvital.org/june2002event. This information is also available by calling 310-859-2284.

Subject: Contacted the Conference Center From: John in Pasadena To: Sulla Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 15:05:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and gave them some background info. on the Guru Maharaj ji. The guy was somewhat interested but seemed more concerned to be making a few bucks for renting the place. I sent him a link to EPO and told him that he and his supervisors may want to look into it a bit, anb that the evangelical, snake oil perveyor that is coming to preach is actually the Guru Maharaj ji from the 70's and not the New Age Meditation Instructor of Self-Knowledge Prem Rawat. Time to contact other interested parties, I don't want this A-hole to have a free ride in my town.

Subject: LA Weekly? New Times? LA Times? From: janet To: John in Pasadena Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 01:43:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: give themn advance notice to do a story about then and now, EPO, the real info. i live here too.let's rip the drunk.

Subject: Re: LA Weekly? New Times? LA Times? From: J in P To: janet Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 04:57:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here are links, I have written them an invite to the event, but have asked them not to do any research on the man (any good reporter will follow up on that-hopefully). New Times: Cut and Paste http://www.newtimesla.com/feedback/index_html?author_email=feedback@newtimesla.com LA Weekly: http://www.laweekly.com/feedback/ LA Times www.latimes.com/services/site/la-comment-metro.story

Subject: You da man, John!!! (nt) From: Inside Edition To: John in Pasadena Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 21:26:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Religion journalist at LA Times From: Informant To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 08:27:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The LA Time's religion writer, Jessica Garrison, recently wrote an article about Scientology. That article was reprinted here, I believe, a few weeks ago. I have just emailed Ms. Garrison telling her about the Prem Rawat Foundation and their meeting in Pasadena in June. I suggested that she look at this website.

Subject: Oky, everyone -- jig's up. Time to quit From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 18:58:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Deborah, the genius 'player' with 'the right intellectual tools' posted this on LG. What do you think? (Well, actually, if she's right I know the answer -- you think whatever I MAKE you think :)). But, besides that, isn't this something? I just can't get enough of this crazy shit for some reason. Deborah Hi Selene, If their image is so important, why they keep going on gossiping, and not about M but other people who used to post on their forum?? Strange behavior. Well that's an interesting dilemma, isn't it? Don't you think they are losing credibility by the hour? The forum is not based on integrity, but rather on hype and a do whatever it takes to keep the hype alive momentum. One criterium for maintaing their indoctrination is to control the flow of information. It's easy to control what information is in, because of the sleaze ball tactics and panic button pushers known as FA's and their insatiable appetite for control. But how do they keep the borders controlled? If people read over here, than they might think criticallyabout their own experiences. For example, I am correcting the great 'Maha demonized the mind myth'. I never bought that shit at F-VII but just didn't argue it into the ground. I did comment once that that wasn't my dilemma but posts like that are not sensational and remain dormant. So, if I counter the revisionist statements in my posts over here, someone may read it and question that perception at F-VII and that is not good. Their logic in this case, is to demonize me for saying anything good and brand it as 'she is just sore' at us. But sore about what? Good question, now they need a what! But the what that has any semblance of truth is 'bad' for publicity because it exposes them for being 'bad'. You see!? They backed themselves into a corner, Selene. The forum relies on conditioning the exes to the Heller philosophy including revised memories and people like us threaten that agenda. Most damaging is the harsh fact that we also threaten the notion that they are the salvation from the 'premie' cult. ooooh, So, if the premies are perceived as nice, and fun, and a joy to be around, than the exes stand out in contrast with their constant angst and anger and escalating hatred. The exes need to fabricate the war, so that their indoctrinated recruits can have somewhere to channel their negative energy. Well supporting the premie forum and arguing with the exes that they take their shit back to the ex-forum takes away their imaginary battlefield where the premies can be used as target practice. This is why Heller and his sidekick bodgies put out the spin against premies. Blanket over-generalized statements are made and demonized. Demonizing is an important aspect of indoctrination. As long as nobody is pointing the finger back at them, they can condition the minds of people who have been willingly around for three decades. . .If a premie points the finger back, they call it 'apologist spin'. But now, an ex-patriot of their forum is pointing fingers (especially the middle one) and that is breaking the structure of dramatic polarity. Hey Selene, notice that Maharaji has never risen to ex-premeie forum bait? We are following his lead Do you think Heller doesn't detest that every moment of his pathetic life? So to Heller, premies are the closest he'll ever get to Maharaji. His goal is to make premies accountable for Maharaji to justify his relentless anger. And the exes follow his lead like sheep. It doesn't dawn on them that the premies don't have to argue for or against anything Maharaji has ever said or done. Their new ex-premie indoctrination overrules that logic. We have undone a very big momentum in other words. If we are part of the Catweasel coven, than we get ensconsed in the 'other' and that can be re-organized intellectually thanks to a little inculcation criterium known as 'cognitive dissonance'. If they stop talking about it, than the new dilemma they have, thanks to people like us, will dissipate. People will also have time to think about the bullshit. So their only choice is to keep it alive. Keeping it alive is inadvertantly taking massive heaps of attention away from Maharaji. Hee hee And so the forum has new life for those doing life because the drama is fresh compared to the 'yesterday's newspaper headlines', but unfortunately the nothing new is turning off those who go for their Maha-is-bad fix. It's a vicious circle. Metaphor is apropos, wouldn't you say?

Subject: Re: Oky, everyone -- jig's up. Time to quit From: Scott T. To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 12:42:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim: Well supporting the premie forum and arguing with the exes that they take their shit back to the ex-forum takes away their imaginary battlefield where the premies can be used as target practice. This is why Heller and his sidekick bodgies put out the spin against premies. Blanket over-generalized statements are made and demonized. OK, I know Deb is supposed to be brilliant and erudite, but isn't she saying that we demonize our own statements? Or am I reading that amiss?? We have undone a very big momentum in other words. Undone a momentum? When a vehicle nears its destination the velocity is decreased because otherwise the momentum would carry it on past. For a passenger to perceive this as a process that *they* initiated is humorous, but would have to be tied to some redeeming quality in order to escape being merely pathetic. And so the forum has new life for those doing life because the drama is fresh compared to the 'yesterday's newspaper headlines', but unfortunately the nothing new is turning off those who go for their Maha-is-bad fix. Why does this sound so much like an 'OxiClean' commercial? Tolstoy it's not. --Scott

Subject: Time to quit... From: Cynthia To: Scott T. Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 15:58:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Scott, and All, We have here a woman who is walking with her high-heels shoes on backwards, heel to toe, and walking uphill in her own vomit. If you could hear my voice you would know I'm not being sarcastic. Yet I can be a bitch--just ask my husband;) I try to keep a sufficiant berth from such manipulative types. You never know where you're going to end up. Probably sliding in the vomit. IMO

Subject: Talk about revisionism!? [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 21:13:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Oky, everyone -- jig's up. Time to quit From: Inside Edition To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 19:41:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'The forum is not based on integrity, but rather on hype and a do whatever it takes to keep the hype alive momentum.' I do believe the same could easily be said about Rat-wat!

Subject: re-not based on integrity From: AV To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 13:16:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The forum never struck me as based on hype, rather the stories of a group of people with very diversr experiences of M and the world of K which they are trying to resolve; some are angry i.e. those personally affected by abuse, or had given up careers and property only to be dumped, some have fond memories of M and cannot reconcile their past beliefs with current behaviour, some are undergoing a major crisis of faith in anything 'divine', some continue to meditate as a road to an inner landscape believed to be a connection to the infinite; there are so many opinions and views exchanged; sometimes it gets ferocious, sometimes very humorous. bottom line is, whatever the view or perspective, people here are pretty sincere, and there is often a lot of love and care taken in providing a valuable free-zone for feelings of a complex and difficult nature.

Subject: David Andersen (on LG) disagrees From: PatC To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 13:08:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, you guys......Wow. I stay away for a few short months and --- -things change radically: Deb--who used to sound & feel like a bitter loon --- is, like, a cool person! I am blown away. Good job. I don't know all the machinations and all the history(the dark exchanges you refer to with Heller, Marianne, et.al.) but it's sweet to feel your kindness, Deb. Hey, Harry: love to hear that shit; testify, brother, testify. What's this about me & Nigel? My short-term memory loss/inevitable senior-monent-itis has kicked in...somebody refresh my cannabis-encrusted neurotransmitters. And, BTW, life IS great. Knowledge is an amazing, powerful tool; Maharaji/Prem Rawat is a beautiful, loving teacher. I've said this before here, but it comes up again and again: Mr. Rawat is a man unafraid to fail spectacularly, process it quickly, and move on. He is my hero in this respect. He's totally fearless about taking risks in the service of his purpose: to place Knowledge in front of as many people as possible globally, with a total absence of 'trips' and cultural baggage --- to offer the highest common denominator to every single human who has an interst, feels a thirst. What a magnificent vision; AND--he's failed his way to immense success. Just like Edison. or Churchill. Or Jesus. Or hundreds of people that were undeterred by failure in advancing their skill level and producing their masterpiece due to the strength of their experience and motivation. Failure, in fact, is only failure, and negative or useless, unless you fail to humbly accept the lesson from it, and move on with joy. Just like any child that's ever been born into this world. How does a baby learn to walk? By failing until he succeeds; by not obsessing on pain or blame; by not being self-important in the arrogant, egotistical way. By knowing life is a beautiful, loving teacher; by acknowledging the magic and mystery that exists in us and around us at all times. Again: life is fookin' great, kids.......xoxoDA

Subject: The Ghost of Satsang past From: PatD To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 14:14:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: somebody refresh my cannabis-encrusted neurotransmitters. I remember GMJ saying once, in reply to a question about where dope fitted into the new world of god realisation, something like..'you see these guys,they're diving in a cove somewhere, they're not part of the plan'. Can't remember the exact words. This Anderson person is a fuckwit.A slave in the service of a greedy little bastard.What's all this failure shit, the perfect master was always right, back when he & I, & you & everyone else who looks in here,were mesmerised. Seems this Anderson's got his knackers caught in the lift door...going up yeah...going down yeah...it's all the same thing man, cause it's the same bellboy pushing the buttons. What a joke.(or maybe it's a lila)

Subject: Here is what I remember From: Brian Smith To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:12:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember GMJ saying once, in reply to a question about where dope fitted into the new world of god realisation, something like.. Hi Pat, I remember rawat answering that question circa 1974 with the illustration of how when one uses drugs to find God it is like crashing a car right into God's living room. 'You can see God in there and he can see you but you can't roll the windows down or open the doors. Even though you can see God and he can see you, you can't get out and he can't get in.' This was another one of his car analogy's that he was so fond of using, he also stated that drugs brought you down and diminished your experience of meditation and that LSD aka "acid" burns. I also remember clearly in Hardwar India Rawat decrying the fact that it had come to his attention that there were premies going out and smoking cigarette's and that he could not imagine why anyone would want to pollute their lungs and he wanted this activity stopped. He was probably smoking marlboro's drinking and using drugs himself when he said those things according to the accounts of some of the inner circle PAM's we have heard from here and on EPO. Rawat is a hypocrite and a pathalogical liar, an irresponsible flake and a phony

Subject: An interesting discussion from LG From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 16:59:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Will has been talking to the premie, ''Harry,'' on LG. (''Harry'' has been the most articulate and wordy cult apologist on LG since David Andersen stopped posting there.) Will Subject: To Harry, continuing from below Message: Harry, Thanks for responding to my 'very specific question.' I find that you spoke first of your own experience with Prem Rawat and how you are grateful for what he has have given you, which was not specifically what I was asking about. And then, secondly, you mentioned other possible teachers, which again was not what I was specifically wanting to ask about. You make a couple other points that were beside my point, such as whether or not the techniques are original to Prem Rawat, whether there is an actual cost to learn the techniques, and what certain other people who you know have experienced. But then, you do get around to addressing directly what I wanted you to write about, when you say 'there's an obvious semantic dichotomy of how can it be a gift if you already have it?' But you merely state the dichotomy and do not answer my question about what you believe about it. You do seem to be saying that you feel the dichotomy is merely semantic and that there is no real issue here other than the difficulty and limitations of human language. So I beg to differ. I do not think the problem is semantic at all. I think it is a pivotal point and addresses a basic reality and in fact is one of the most important questions a human being should ask himself if he is ever inclined toward following a guru figure. The original question, again, was: do you believe Prem Rawat when he says that the experience of Self-Knowledge has to be a gift from one person to another, from the Master to the student? I will tell you what I think about it, and then perhaps pose the question to you again. There are two 'levels' that one can think about this question. One is the very straight-forward logical level in which the guru teaches the techniques to the student and the student says thank you for teaching me these techniques. Then the student goes and uses the techniques and has a very good experience and the student says, 'boy, if you hadn't shown me these techniques and encouraged me to practice, I would probably have never known this very good experience, so thank you for that!' The gratitude would be of an appropriate level, and I would have no problem at all for a graditude of that sort. But the gratitude would be for the showing of the techniques and the encouragement, not for the experience itself. Here is the point and here is where Rawat and others like him sneak in a grand lie. The gratitude for the experience itself must go to the right place. And where is that? The guru? Should the human guru figure be credited with 'giving the experience!?' This is the point I am trying to make and trying to force you to address, Harry. I shall tell you how I would answer my own question. For my being, I am grateful to the source, the mysterious source, of my being. For the love in my life I am grateful toward the love that exists in the universe. For my own development in my life, both 'externally' and 'internally,' I honor myself and the efforts I have made. I am grateful to all those who have helped me along the way. Now there is another level on which people can think about this question, a more 'spritual' and hypothetical level. When I received Knowledge, it was very clearly to be understood that I was receiving a grace through the auspices of Prem Rawat. The grace came to me through Prem Rawat and his representative. Unfortunately for my case, I received Knowledge from Jagdeo, and I can only think that there really wasn't any grace happening for me through that person, because I can't imagine that divine grace would come to me through such a despicable pervert as Jagdeo. But let us say that I 'received Knowledge' from another one of Rawat's representatives, let's say Michael Parragon. I always detested Michael Parragon's personality. So how could divine grace come to me through some ignorant human being I can't stand? What if Prem Rawat himself taught me the techniques in some video? And what if I really didn't like people who drove drunk and was uncomfortable getting my Self-Knowledge from such a person? The point I am trying to get at is that I want to acknowledge the source of grace in my life, but I want it to be the right source. Even it remains mysterious to me. In my experience and opinion, the guru figure alligns himself with the source of grace in a way that he should never ever do. And the student misdirects his gratitude toward the guru figure because he is too bound by the illusions of human perspective and fails to accept the mystery of life. He directs his gratitude toward a person as if that person were the source. He will use the phrase 'I received Knowledge' from my teacher. But that is the wrong phrase. It should be: 'I learned some techniques of meditation from my teacher.' The actual experience I have of my own Self-Knowledge comes from within me. I have no problem with those teachers of meditation who offer their teaching services and then leave it at that. There is a bit of gratitude, properly directed and in line with the truth of life. The problem with all those gurus who declare themselves the giver of the gift of Self-Knowledge is that they are taking more credit than they deserve. Self-Knowledge is between an individual person and his own Self. A person moves toward his own heart and his own higher self by living his life and learning the lessons that life teaches him. All we are required to learn is how to live honorably, in tune with truth and love. We are not required to unite our limited consciousness with the Infinite, because that would be the Infinite's job to accomplish, obviously. We need only to open our hearts to that power. We can live honorably on the 'outside' and go quietly to our core on the 'inside,' independent of any specific techniques or teachers or rules. That is how it is, and how it is good to be. All people who are alive have the capacity to know the quiet within. And we can share with each other the truth and the love that we know. But it can never, must never, be limited to one person's personality cult. And it should never be considered a gift from one person to another person. That is a perversion. So I ask again, does your own experience of Self-Knowledge correspond to my version, or to the version of Shri Hans and Prem Rawat (as quoted originally below). Do you believe that in order to have the experience of Self-Knowledge and to grow in that experience, must one approach another human being who claims to be the Master of that Knowledge? Do you have to get something from somebody else, as they claim? I think this question is one of the few really defining differences between premies and ex-premies. I think we actually agree with each other on most other counts. That is why I am insisting on this very specific question. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Harry Recipient: Subject: Re: To Will, continuing from below Message: Hi Will, Since you asked, I’ll try again, though I pretty much said what I wanted to say the first time. I’ll try to say it quickly as I have a lot to take care of right now. We have fundamentally different approaches. You feel that a person can and should get wherever they’re ''going'' in their desire to unite with whateveryoucallit on their own, through the natural processes, lessons and realizations that life presents them with. Is that an accurate paraphrasing? You said - ''A person moves toward his own heart and his own higher self by living his life and learning the lessons that life teaches him. All we are required to learn is how to live honorably, in tune with truth and love. We are not required to unite our limited consciousness with the Infinite, because that would be the Infinite's job to accomplish, obviously. We need only to open our hearts to that power. We can live honorably on the 'outside' and go quietly to our core on the 'inside,' independent of any specific techniques or teachers or rules. That is how it is, and how it is good to be.'' Sounds nice (well, maybe the last sentence ain’t so great). My approach is different in the one respect that highlights this discussion. In my life, my heart was opened to that power with the assistance, guidance, care, humor, wisdom and perspective of a guy named Maharaji. Not the formless and unmanifest, not a book or a philosophy. Not ''the Universe'' or unnamed, mysterious forces. Not only do I not reject, shun or deny his help, I welcome it. I feel my association with him, however out of fashion or uncool at any given point, greatly accelerates every bit of what you state and that the more lighthearted, loving, accepting, appreciative and deeply felt state that I crave and love, and he encourages and reminds me about, is the state you’re aspiring to, by your description. You don’t want nor accept anyone’s help? Fine, that’s your call. You don’t like Michael Paragon or believe every bit of unbalanced debris you hear about Maharaji? That’s up to you. Your only reference to him in your post was, ''What if Prem Rawat himself taught me the techniques in some video? And what if I really didn't like people who drove drunk and was uncomfortable getting my Self-Knowledge from such a person?'' I’d say you have a profoundly limited, somewhat insulting, miniscule comprehension of the person who supposedly is a central figure in your long post and questions. Maybe that sounds rude to you but you might take a moment to see how totally you have absorbed the party line of the ex-premies, to the point where you’re probably unaware that you’re insulting my teacher and friend, who I love, know and feel very close to, as you ask me a question. Would you so easily insult someone’s family members or friends? I doubt it. Are you ready to throw out of your record collection all music by artists who were reported to have driven drunk one time 20 years ago? You’d be left with a single Pat Boone album - actually, come to think of it.... As I said the first time, the way you’ve phrased your question is loaded from the start. That’s why I answered each and every component of your question, though you apparently feel that those answers were side trips. So be it. If I were a basketball player who usually shot 6 or 7 out of 10 of my foul shots (here’s where I’m hoping you’re American or Serbo-Croatian) and a basketball teacher (might not even be a player, could be 5’ 3'') pointed out a few key items about my stroke, after which I consistently shot 9 or 10 out of 10, I’d have a similar question facing me. If being around that teacher, for whatever reason, lifts my game those few notches, should I keep him around or stay with my ''natural'' 65-70%? Now, as you suggest, I could thank him, ask him to take off and resume my natural progression. What if my percentage tended to slip back to its former state and when he came around again, it rose back up to 90-95%? Should I accept this, be suspicious, thank him or run away? Is it an insult to me and to the entire course of human evolution that this dude can be the catalyst to kicking my level of play quite a ways up? Is it a coincidence that I almost always feel at the very top of my ''game'' when I’m around Maharaji? What do I mean by that? The love tank fills to overflowing, the laugh tank fills up, stresses disappear, my perspective gets way larger and longer term, my delight in and recognition of the beauty of all existence grows logarithmically. Priorities get organically re-ordered. The preciousness of the time I have becomes far more apparent than in the ''normal'' daily approach. I feel at my very best. In fact, I’ve been blasted right out the top of my tepee more times than I can count. This has occurred over three decades. I take these as a little bit more than signs that my association with this character is of great importance and impact in my life. Nothing and no one else has had this effect on me consistently. You have that effect on yourself? Mazel tov. I don’t. I can use the help. You think it’s a giant placebo effect? I’ll take it. ''For the love in my life I am grateful toward the love that exists in the universe.'' I find that to be a meaningless sentence. Where, in space? I’m grateful for the love I have with people I actually know. I’m a person and I tend to dig the personal. That’s why I don’t feel the personal or devotional love for Maharaji is misplaced, another of your points. When love grows, whoever inspires, triggers or catalyzes it, it floods into all areas of one’s life and everyone benefits: your wife, kids, pets, and friends. How bad or detrimental exactly is someone whose presence or proximity draws your attention to your most beautiful attributes as well as theirs? Compassion and understanding are natural by-products of immersion in that power and beauty. ''I am grateful to all those who have helped me along the way.'' Except Maharaji. Funny, that. ''All people who are alive have the capacity to know the quiet within.'' Yes, and very few of them know how to access it. That’s where a little help might come in handy. Back to what you commented as me finally getting to the crux of your biscuit. ''But then, you do get around to addressing directly what I wanted you to write about, when you say 'there's an obvious semantic dichotomy of how can it be a gift if you already have it?' But you merely state the dichotomy and do not answer my question about what you believe about it. You do seem to be saying that you feel the dichotomy is merely semantic and that there is no real issue here other than the difficulty and limitations of human language.'' Every one of the lovely attributes I mentioned above, all of the tanks (tanks for the memories) we have. We are born with them. Do they tend to grow or fade as we age? Are we getting closer to or farther away from feeling them? Look around, I think the answer’s pretty clear. ''So I ask again, does your own experience of Self-Knowledge correspond to my version, or to the version of Shri Hans and Prem Rawat?'' My experience corresponds far more to Maharaji’s and Shri Hans’ than to yours, though all three of us might express it differently due to many factors, not least being where and when in history we existed. ''The original question, again, was: do you believe Prem Rawat when he says that the experience of Self-Knowledge has to be a gift from one person to another, from the Master to the student?'' Yes, I believe it is indeed a gift that awakens, heightens, reveals and allows us to directly immerse ourselves in the loving, kind, infinite and highly pleasurable beauty that is our nature and was within us all along. That’s a ''dichotomy'' I can happily live with. And no, I don’t think your attempts at getting there yourself by means of natural progression will get you as far, as quickly. But hey, knock yourself out! If you want to get into the microscopic, lingual perusal of every atom, quark and black hole of your question, read my first post again. The one word answer - catalyst. I’ll take the help. Best to you, Will Harry P.S. Do we share the same mother? If so, I believe there are some rather large checks (cheques) awaiting us! --- --- --- --- WardenDoc (aka, Cerise, David Roupell et al) Subject: 'trying to force Harry to address?' Message: There's you mistake pal. If you knew Harry, you'd know that you don't talk to him like that. In fact, you don't force any New Yorker to do anything. But I have a question for you. How the hell did you go from being a simple kiddie sucking happily on a lollypop - to having a tired brain lost in a maze of convoluted and complicated concepts as depicted in your post? --- --- --- --- - Harry Recipient: Subject: Fuhgeddaboudit! Message: Hey! Who you people talkin' to over here? Fuhgeddaboudit. Semantic dichotomy this! --- --- --- --- --- DominitrixDoc Subject: Re: 'trying to force Harry to undress?' Message: If you knew Harry, you'd know that I do talk to him like that. In fact, I can force any New Yorker to do anything. cheers, DominitrixDoc (Deb, who can't resist satire) --- --- --- --- PrudeDoc (Cerise again) Subject: No way Deb, David A has btdt already Message: at the dungpile already. He ripped the thin veneer off Nigel's blimp. It wasn't a pretty site as we already knew. The hyenas went wild as you'd expect. If you exposed Jack the Ripper to them they'd all gather round and praise him as a 'debonaire playboy'. They'd call white black if pack unity was threatened. --- --- --- --- So is ''Harry'' our old friend, David Andersen, brother of Andrea Erikson or is that Erika Andersen? Sure sounds like him. Funny how the premies love their aliases. I guess it's all just maya anyway and it doesn't matter how deceitful one is. ''It's just a game. So what if most people aren't in on the joke? Ha ha hee hee, bolli shree! After all self-knowledge isn't for everyone. But just because we think a Hindu chubster is god and practice some secret techniques doesn't mean we're in a cult. No, the rest of the world is in a cult. Ha ha hee hee, bolli shree!''

Subject: The fascinating dichotomy From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:27:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All day long I deal with people because that's what I do. I'm a people dealer. And some of these people are smarter than others. Why? Because. But you can almost always tell which ones are the smarter ones by how they talk. Why? Because. Harry, sounds smart in that he can turn a cute phrase, dress it up, dress it down. He can catch a joke and send it back. Decent vocabulary, all that. But when you actually read his comments and really think about them, hell, what do you know? The guy might be otherwise smart but he sure is saying some stupid stuff here! But what can you do? Will's doing it, I guess. All power to him. Of course, committed cult members can't see what's what but fence-sitters are a valid enough audience to make the effort worthwhile. And exes can get a savoury laugh out of it all. Nice try, Will.

Subject: The fascinating bottle in front of me From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 21:04:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Most of the premies I know booze or smoke more pot than meditate or combine the two. Nothing wrong with that but - since when is being stoned the same as ''satchitanand'' (pure consciousness bliss?) I wonder why they need to smoke pot before meditating? Could it be that meditation is boring for them without getting stoned? On LG, David Roupell said to Deborah (who has started practicing again): I think my current imbalance is due to cannabis elimination. Does anyone have any experience or data on this? I have stopped smoking recently and am sure that there must be some kind of eliminative reaction happening. I certainly have a headache and feel tired in bursts followed by bursts of energy. If anyone knows the time line on this stuff, I'd dig to know when I'll feel 'normal' again. The hardest things is practice, I used to love a smoke an hour beforehand which tended to focus the mind on deeper more profound things in preparation for the Pilates movements to loosen up and relax before the journey within. Nowadays I sit there to practice and have to endure an hour of bland superficial mindshit before getting close to centering. You know, tiresome thoughts like what to have for breakfast tomorrow or has so and so got off on their trip to Korea ok? Has the book I sent arrived in Tasmania? Did I change the strings on the PRS this week or last week? I dunno, the mind seems to be able to go on and on and on. At least after a good smoke I used to hear this internal loudspeaker system which would address the mind quite clearly with the words SHUT THE FUCK UP! It worked, I would immediately find myselt getting to much deeper levels very fast But my lungs have asked for a cessation and I am willing to oblige them this time. Me again: Cerise said: ''Nowadays I sit there to practice and have to endure an hour of bland superficial mindshit before getting close to centering.'' And that's after close to 30 years of ''practice.'' When will premies ever ''realize K?'' My friend, CT, who is a dear fellow and an unabashed stoned Hippie Hindu, knows a lot more about ''self-knowledge'' for very good reason. +) He's a nice guy but I can't argue with him as it's like arguing politics with Salam - futile. CT does one thousand pranyamas every morning before practicing and is really a kind, sweet and gentle man, one of the few premies I know who is truly happy with K - a lot like premies were 20 years ago. I guess you really have to be stoned to understand M or K (or any New Age nonsense for that matter.) The irony of this is that CT had dropped out, stopped practicing and had not seen Rev Rawat for 15 years when we met 5 years ago. My satsang got him back into meditating and well......I'm not kicking myself. He really is much happier than he used to be since he started making an effort to be positive and optimistic. He calls it K. I call it ''not being lazy.'' CT expounds thus: It is true Carlos, that we are all incarnations of God, as God is omnipresent..that is when we are in reality..how often are we in reality?..only we know and of course the guru...It is just as easy to become tripped up by the finite mind as it is to go beyond it, once the momentum is firmly established...(Energy follows thought...if I think I am screwed up because of what has occured in the past, then the thoughts that follow that enegy are screwy..If I think I am fully elightened, then the thoughts that follow are higher and deeper but still thoughts)...However, when I meditate and go for that feeling of bliss consciousness, If I let it, that sound of the breath will drown out all thoughts...and if in samadhi, then as Jerry Garcia says: It all rolls into one...there is no sound that can disturb my concentration....the music becomes loud enough to drown out all sounds...the feeling is better than the sum of all my feelings...and the light washes over me, the witness, in waves....I am no different than anyone, nor higher...you are right the opposites of higher or lower are merging in what is Self-existant...in fact, I mostly cease to concern myself with other peoples consciousness...all people, places, and things disappear when I enter the 'within' and a Maharaji says, 'the infinite shows up'....it is this infinite state of consciousness that is beyond it all, including lesser states of consciousness...the amount of time(whatever that is) that I spend in meditation, only helps me with concentration, which Pantajali and everyone else says is the pre-requisite to meditation...so in that sense, there is a stage or state...I have also observed that if I practice for a lesser time in earth hours, there is still an experience that my soul longs for...I thank my lucky stars that I cut out all of the distractions to my meditation time (there is that word again...) because if I had not, then I would never be enjoying how the bliss keeps increasing...this mind,which I call mine, which Ramana Maharshi would merely call 'a bundle of thoughts', has gone through various stages, as will all finite minds. In the early stages, it bothers us, such as when we were teenagers...it assults us with all kinds of self-deprecating notions and as Maharaji says, feelings attach themselves to thoughts...so we have that feeling of not being loved or apreciated or understood...then as the mind matures, it realizes that the witness (us) is no longer bothered by the strong language or harsh negative thoughts and it switches to the subtle aproach...'you've been spending a lot of time in meditation these days, don't you think you should back off a bit, otherwise you'll get spaced out...'haven't you seen how we've gone from where I bothered you to where we are now?'...'I mean aren't we friends you seem so much happier and don't I work well in my intuition mode?' Haven't I helped you where once I distracted you?' and all this is true, we do through the process of meditation, become more together in all ways, including mentally. However, we all know that even this subtle process is part of finite mind...still, it is better and we feel better...it is at this point we realize the difference between being better than and better off than...obviously, someone who is 'training' the mind to be their servant is better off than someone who is being let around by a mind that is finite that thinks it is a person...but it is the person with the maturely developed mind who sees the difference...the words 'our betters' faded out with the Victorian era...people no longer think like that...everyone is striving for equality...how much more equal can we get than when we are in deep meditation?...there is only Oneness, or as Maharaji says, there is only you...Because of establishing a deep meditation practice, it becomes easier to create seperation between the divine energy that is the I AM, which is US in reality and everything else that is going on to distract us...I find Sanskrit chants to be invaluable in helping to thrust me into a deeper state of enjoyment...they resonate with the deepest part of my being and propell me into my center, which is the Spiritual Heart or the heart that Maharaji speaks of...they were brought to us by the realized sages over 6,000 years ago and they still hold true today..that is if you or I or anybody wants to experience the deep abiding peace that comes from the mind being still...then, what takes over is what Maharaji calls Self-knowledge...the knowledge that the Self is the reality and the mind is at best a tool which one day is discarded just as one day we will drop the body...there is nothing to fear in this it happens to everybody and it only applies to the finite realm...the true US is infinite and beyond all the limited mind-body games we are playing..it is fun and ok to play but we should try and keep the awareness of the One Consciousness and the One God, even in our devotion to a master..for it is this pure-awareness that the master is leading us to and helping us as Maharaji says 'I am helping you to the awareness of that which is keeping you alive...And here we go again, one more chance which is being offered in Pasadena...You know I have an Aunt who lives in La Canada which is right next door..she has been a blissful Christian all of her life. After I got Self-Knowledge from Maharaji in 72 in Montrose at Guru Puja, I came out to California to let her and my deceased uncle know that Maharaji was here with an ability to reveal this inner truth, which I called the Holy Spirit..they were happy with their religion, which is fine but they did miss the opportunity to see and perhaps talk with, one day, a living master. Now my uncle has passed away and my aunt is in her early 80's....I just wish I had been as clear as I feel now, then, because I may have been a catlyst for someone I love and who always treated me well, to attain this ultimate of truths...I am content to let her have her religion-dependent happiness but I am going for the ultimate happiness... Yogananda said this: 'Neither birth nor death, nor cast have I...father, mother, have I none. Blessed Spirit I am that..I am the Infinite Happiness... peace and love, CT

Subject: Seeking 'true selves' cost our identity From: Gail To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 12:08:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Remember signing up with Maharaji so that your 'true self' would appear? Instead, upon leaving the cult, there is very little identity left. We surrended all our own personal goals and dreams in pusuit of Nirvana. Now, it is very difficult to build a normal life. What's left? Not much! Many talents are now gone from decades of not being used. We worked to support our Maharaji habit. He once stated that the ONLY reason he would work would be to see his Guru Maharaji again.' I bought into that. Instead of having a wide variety of friends, I had only cult friends. Upon leaving, those people are gone. Even relationships with family are gone. My aunt missed my mother's funeral because I told her we would be making a stops in NYC and Miami to see Prem Pal before heading to Nova Scotia to bury my mother. That's right folks--I took my deceased mother along in the Motor Home across the border and all (we had to keep the air conditioning running). My aunt was not interested in this pilgrimage. Maharaji was always first for me! So, after decades in this mindset, I realize that I erased my true identity for what I thought was my ticket to heaven. I gave control and responsiblity over to Maharaji. All those years I should have been building a personal life were spent in his stupidity. There is no quick fix to repair all the damage.

Subject: Re: Seeking 'true selves' cost our identity From: Anandaji To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 21:26:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am finding that the void is beginning to fill with some interesting things. I am feeling more gratitude for real people in my life (not a stupid guru). I am recovering some talents. I like to write and am writing more and more each day, and it isn't just drival. Spiritually, I am feeling much more alive than before. I am basing spirituality much more on what is real,i.e., the good feelings of really feeling connected to friends, family and even strangers. At first (last December) I felt depressed and confused, but now life is opening up. I feel that, despite hitting 58 next week, there is still time for me to recover much of my true identity. Besides, I believe we actually live forever, which, obviously, should give us more time than we need. Anandaji

Subject: Good to know she was cremated... From: Cynthia To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 18:48:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gail, I know how you feel because I sometimes get a glimpse of talents lost, forsaken, forgotten, though I don't let myself dwell there too much. Sometimes self-pity is good though. We're conditioned not to have any. Who can we pity best but ourselves? No one could do better. Yet in my life I cannot linger there for long because there is so much to live and love for. Thanks for reminding me of that quote about 'working to see my goomraji' because that was my total mindset. Nothing was as valuable as seeing him. That was the cult talk at the time not only by him but in satsang that I gave and others gave. A spiritual self-reinforcement regimen. You're right, Gail, there's no quick fix. No panacea for happiness. That's what's gone wrong in our society too. I kept getting these pop updiet ads in my email account so I finally hit reply and wrote in huge letters: STOP TELLING ME I'M FAT!!!! then I clicked send. How would the internet know how much I weigh? It's ridiculous! I cannot tolerate anyone telling me how to be ever again in my life. I suppose that's the benefit or result of learning the hard way about cults. I cannot exert my energies into other spiritual quests either. My new regimen is to not focus on anything that tells me to change and be different. I'm tired of being told by the 1,150,000 available websites about 'teachings' on Google that they can make me better than I aleady am, because I'm good! All are people who want my money to fix me. It's ridiculous. It's so silly and superficial. You have an identity Gail. It may be out of your focus right now but it surely has to be there otherwise you'd be on a coma ward somewhere.;) I hope you got your Mother to her destination on your way back from the program:):) I laughed when I read your post because I envisioned something quite different than cremated... Be well, Cynthia

Subject: And wouldn't we all have done the same From: Moley To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 18:07:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course we would... That's right folks--I took my deceased mother along in the Motor Home across the border and all (we had to keep the air conditioning running). Postponed Birth, Marriage and Death for Rawat! Love to you Moley xxx

Subject: Holi Cow! From: Jim To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:48:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God, Gail, are you serious!!!!!!

Subject: Re: Seeking 'true selves' cost our identity From: Richard To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 15:18:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't recall ever hearing a story so revealing of the depth of programming we were subjected to. We all took detours in our lives to attend to guru puja but yours is the most graphic I've ever heard. The only way I know of to regain our humanity is to engage with humanity. By telling the truth and embracing our family and friends, we can get back on track and love ourselves. All the best to you Gail. Love, Richard

Subject: Re: Seeking 'true selves' cost our identity From: CA To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 13:22:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gail- for what it's worth, I share your bitterness and regret... I find myself in a similar situation in my life, but hey, what are we going to do? I can only wallo in self pity for so long... it's time to breath and be strong, get back up and start walking toward new goals. Life is in progress and there is a LOT left to live. Rejoice that you are free from the bondage of the cult and its leader. At least that's one mistake we won't be making again.. Good luck to you.

Subject: I gotta get outta here... From: PatD To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 12:32:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's right folks--I took my deceased mother along in the Motor Home across the border and all (we had to keep the air conditioning running). My aunt was not interested in this pilgrimage. Maharaji That's got to be one of the worst recollections I've read here.I've got to take a break before I lose my sense of humour.I can see the funny side to your story.......only just.

Subject: She was cremated!!!! From: Gail To: PatD Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:01:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gotcha! However, I did have her tombstone with us. It was supposed to be a trip to bury my mother. She had died five months earlier.

Subject: You got me alright From: PatD To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 12:04:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was seeing your younger self as a cross between Danny deVito & Peter Cushing.....something like that. Naughty!

Subject: Re: She was cremated!!!! From: Jim To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:50:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I should have read this first.

Subject: Was the 'Mutiny' fully explained? From: la-ex To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 07:07:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After reading Neville's poem, with the reference to the 'uprising' in amaroo, and John MCG's reference to it in his original post, I am still not sure what happened there in the late 90's, to cause the 'insurgence'.....did the workers revolt?....were there mobs with pitchforks at the gates angrily demanding something?.... I'm still not sure what caused the 'divine mutiny', and what the response was... Has this ever been fully explained? If so, where? If not, could someone elaborate?

Subject: the Mutiny From: J McG To: la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 06:21:36 (PDT) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: Hi la-ex, I explained the mutiny in my 'trainings' post, now on EPO, if you want a bit of detail. Really, all that happened was that several of us resigned from Amaro's management because of disagreements with the way the place was run. This followed a 'Prague Spring' when some of us in management introduced reforms - such as involving on-the-ground premies in decision-making, and making the minutes of our meetings publicly available. This was quickly crushed. Some of us quit immediately. It was Maharaji who called this a 'mutiny'. Most premies didn't even know it had happened, at the time. Which says something about the group psychology at Amaroo, given that everyone expressed extreme guilt and remorse for their 'sins' in the penitence sessions which were established in the mutiny's wake - i.e. without knowing what these sins even were, for the most part. The mutiny not only led to Valerio's visit (and the penitence sessions where gallons of tears were shed), but, in the longer term, I believe, it may have led to the trainings, which were a kind of mid-life devotional re-boot. Perhaps the mutiny gave Maharaji a little fright. Regards, John

Subject: Hey Bai Ji. From: Tony To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 23:58:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bai Ji.Remember me.Back in Division street Cooge in about 1976.I was your big brother figure.I was best mates with Keith(having the same surname as you)I just read your dilemma on Recent Exes.Would you like to email me and have a chat.if so I will send you my email here on this forum. I look forward to talking with you. Tony W.

Subject: How're you doing, grandpa? From: PatC To: Tony Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 00:26:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If that's you, grandpa, take care of Bai Ji.

Subject: Re: How're you doing, grandpa? From: Tony To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 02:45:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Will Do Pat me ol' mate.How are they hangin'? Cheers, Tony.

Subject: Doing great, thanks. :C) [nt] From: PatC To: Tony Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 09:41:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Oh, this is the problem! From: Vicki To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 13:03:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We took a wrong turn. We were SUPPOSED to be headed for Divine Life not Divine Light! Divine Life www.sivanandadlshq.org/aims.htm

Subject: vomit [nt] From: Anandaji To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 21:47:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Impressive pile! From: PatD To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 13:57:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder how long it'll take them to rebuild it,should Prem fall down on the job of turning the bombs into petals.Shit,it doesn't belong to him,I'm all confused,probably he'll only save his own H.Q.& could you blame him....crisp the usurpers. An unnamed Indian army officer said the other day.....'25 million dead,we can absorb that,but can they'. Brighter than a thousand suns,too right; these guys better get their act together.Time is coming soon.

Subject: My God Can Beat Up Your God From: PatC To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 13:47:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Vicki, Divine Life has a huge following among the Indians in South Africa - more than Rawat's. All these Indian gods in bods are just too much for me. I prefer this guys take on it. My God Can Beat Up Your God by Richard Bamford My god can beat up your god. Do you know his name? Sure you do. He talks to you every day. You could not live a normal life without him. You believe in him, whether you like it or not. Unless you abandon him completely, you cannot deny he exists. My god is a more personal god than yours can ever be, for if you have enough sense to understand these words, my god lives within you. He lives within us all, to some degree. A heartbreaking few cannot understand him, but this is not their fault. The real tragedy is the multitudes who ignore much of his counsel, particularly when he questions your god too deeply. My god has been around longer than your god. He was here before the many other gods that preceded your god. Though you will likely scoff at the notion, my god was the father of your god, as he was to all gods. But that was long ago when he was young and not yet sure of himself. Though many of your god's followers try to hold him down, my god grows stronger and more independent each day. When your god expelled us from paradise for eating an apple, my god taught us to grow our own fruit. When your god forbade knowledge, demanding we live in ignorance, my god created books. When your god smote cities like a tantrum-prone child, my god helped to rebuild them. When your god insisted the world was flat, my god showed his followers it was round, to their peril at the hands of your god's followers. While your god watched in silence as children sickened and died, my god created medicines to make them well. When your god winked and nodded at slavery, my god argued passionately against it. While your god represses half the human race, my god considers woman to be the equal of man. When your god only helps those who help themselves, my god rolls up his sleeves and actually does help until your god decides to join in, and then steals all the credit. When your god inspired great buildings and great art, my god made them possible. While your god says we are all born sinners, tainted before we even draw breath, my god says we are all born innocent; a clean slate with limitless potential. While your god offers dubious allusions of an afterlife, my god provides for us here in this life. While your god makes amazing promises, but offers not a shred of proof, my god performs amazing deeds, and the proof is there to be seen by all. While your god demands blind faith and obsequious obedience, my god encourages questions, even about himself. When your god says 'Thou shalt not,' my god says 'You can do anything.' My god is reason. He does more in a day than your god will ever do.

Subject: Re: Oh, this is the problem! From: Thorin To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 13:45:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Something is wrong here. The Divine Life society has a line up of sages and saints but somehow have missed out on including Prem. On a different point I have promised myself that I would no longer seek out Gurus for my enlightenment. I am no longer sure - the guy who's picture I have linked to seems totally 'above it all'. Off to Rishekish I go ..... warmly, Thorin www.sivanandadlshq.org/images/neemkaroli.jpg

Subject: Re: Oh, this is the problem! From: Dep To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 09:03:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC is right. This is Neem Karoli Baba a beautiful guy and the inspiration behind Ram Dass's book Be Here Now. Unfortunately he died in 1973.

Subject: So, what was so beautiful about him? From: Tonette To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 11:27:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, this well fed Guru, inspired one of his followers to write a new agey book, Be Here Now. I wonder how much of the royalities this Indian Guru, holy man, got via his devotee's donations. What happened to the author? Might have to track him down by his birth name because he wasn't born named Ram Dass. Or did good old Ram just merge with the light or something? Seriously it would be fun to find out. And speaking of enlightened souls, I am having a hard time recalling any good works that Neem left behind in memorial. He did have quite a following, lots of people who would exhale when they needed to inhale, lots of ready hands. So, how exactly did he make this world a better place? It's worth looking at. Tonette

Subject: Richard Alpert From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 11:34:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He had a stroke a few years ago. He lives here in the Bay Area and still gives a few talks.

Subject: Re: Richard Alpert From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 14:16:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jeez Pat is that a fair description of Ram Dass? He was huge in the 60s and 70s and led many people to the Spirit. IMO one of the greats of the 20th century. But in all fairness I wouldn't expect an oaf like Tonette to know that.

Subject: I did a little experiment From: Tonette, the oaf To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 11:13:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just happened to have a copy of the book 'Remember Be Here Now.' In looking at it again and it's comic page layout, remember the drawings?, I had to laugh at myself. How did I ever see anything remotely sane portrayed in this book? Anyway, my experiment. I asked my daughter, age 11, does that qualify for the heart of a child?, to take a look at the book and read a little. So, what did she think? I quote, 'This is weird mom but it's got cool pictures.' 'What is this book about? It looks crazy.' 'Who's this guy? Does he have cancer or something? He looks really sick.' She was looking at a picture of Ram Dass at the height of his cult inflicted thinking. 'This guy looks really mean or angry. Who is he?' She said this when she was looking at the Maharaji. Then I read her the story about when Ram has a virtual spiritual nervous breakdown because he ate a 'couple of english biscuits.' And how Maharaji was able to discern that Ram ate these biscuits by eating oranges while old Ram was weeping her reply, 'What's wrong with biscuits?' I couldn't resist, I did have her audience after all. I pulled out the 'Peace Bomb' satsang. I got to perhaps the third paragraph, her attention was waining after all, she's had enough bullshit for one day, when she said, 'He's lying.' I did not tell her who or what I was reading. I just asked for what she thought. So, what does this prove? Absolutely nothing! But it's an unadulterated perspective from the heart of a child. For me, I know now that for me to align myself and adopt the type of thinking and values illustrated and portrayed in the likes of 'Be Here Now,' made me oh so ripe for the picking by the likes of Guru Maharaji or any number of other charlatans who operate under the guise of 'spiritual.' You supposedly realize that Guru Maharaji is one and the same of what I described. A fraud. So, why do you keep looking for trouble? Have you not learned a lesson? And how can you not equate Ram Das and his Maharaji with just another scam. Beautiful you say? I did a paper for a class I am taking. I explored, researched, and tallied. How many human lives have been lost since our recorded human history to disease, plaque, famine, natural disasters. In other words, Mother Nature, God if you will. Now how many human lives have been extinguished in war? Although wars are economic in nature, the only way to get them fought is by giving them a religious or moral title for the most part. Guess what? Mankind with his agenda is running neck and neck with mother nature. In other words, we are our own worst enemy. But why am I bothering with this post? Now that's what's really nuts. Tonette

Subject: Re: I did a little experiment From: Cynthia To: Tonette, the oaf Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 15:41:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow, Tonette, Your daughter's answers are so telling. Children are not easily fooled. Even the great prem pay pal rawat, LOTU, cannot fool an 11 year old girl. She's smart, Tonette, just like you:) Love, Cynthia

Subject: Hey Deputy Dog... From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 16:07:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Did you read my post below to you in response to yours regarding Landmark? You seem to have a real attitude. I don't know you, but why all the insults? Tonette is a professional woman who works very hard, she's smart, savy and I consider her my friend. I don't like your tone. What's your problem? I don't understand. If you want to contribute here, contribute! But don't expect to bring up long lost has-been gurus like Ram Dass, who I was reading as a teenager. I'm curious. What exactly is it that you are searching for? This is a serious question. You're not going to find alternative religions, new-age gurus, nor mass therapy advocates here. Don't you know that by now? With all due respect, you've got me baffled. Care to respond? Best, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Hey Cynthia From: Dep To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 18:25:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I brought up long lost has-been guru Ram Dass in response to an above post from Thorin. To me he is not a 'has been' and I still very much admire and respect the man.

Subject: Why Ram Dass is indeed a has-been From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 18:48:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: While it's true that Ram Dass continues to impress some and even does good, praise-worthy work for the blind in India (what's it called? The Seva Foundation or something?), he is most definitely a has-been in the sense that the millions who admired and respected his 'wisdom' have all pretty much turned their back on his chatty, hindu rehash as naive nonsense. He was, for a brief period, a generation's leader. Now he's a humourous footnote. Yes, he still has a small following. Or, if you don't like that word, how about contingent of people who'll come out to hear him talk, buy his books. But it's a mere sliver of the block he used to impress. Hey, that reminds me of someone!

Subject: Re: Why Ram Dass isn't-and you're out of date From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 20:38:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For a guy who prides himself on knowing the facts and making real life arguments, you're glaringly uninformed and decades out of date. must be because you're Canadian, ey? [ >:) ] let me surprise you. I was sitting in my doctor's office some months back, waiting to be seen, and happened to peruse the spread of magazines fanned out on the waiting room tables. to my great surprise, there on the cover of Modern Maturity--that bastion of the AARP--was a feature cover article on Ram Dass, with him seated on a balcony at his home overlooking a vista of- I believe- Marin County. He was in a wheechair. The interview was headlined as being an insight into his encounter with a severe disabling stroke and how it changed him. So I turned to it, a bit amazed to be reading about him in the flagship of the AARP, of all places. The interview was more revealing and edifying than the pieces that were out during the time when Timothy LEary was dying of prostate cancer. Tim wa a bit of a rascal to the end. Ram Dass was not, by any stretch of the imagination. He spoke- haltingly and searchingly- of how in the first days following his massive stroke, that his conventional physicians originally walked atound his bed speaking of him in the third person as if he was already dead and useless to do anything for. He spoke of how he lay there, unable to communicate in any form but to open his eyes and follow people around the room. He spoke of how it took hi a number of days to get the gaze of one of the personnel and hold it, until the doctor perceived that he was very much aware and alive in there, and far from ready to be wiped off the slate and forgotten. He spoke of his years and years of practice in Accepting things without prejudice, and how it all came to bear in the face of this new and strange turn of events in his life. His attitude played an immense part in both his team of doctors deciding to go ahead with finding him as much help as there could be had, and his own subsequent ability to be patient and untroubled about seeing whether he would regain any use of his body in the period that followed the acute cerebral event that had occurred. The article went on to explain that the medical community came to view Ram Dass's case as a new, instructive area of awareness from which to understand stroke victims more fully, and that they had incorporated changes into their whole general teaching on the matter as a result of watching his progress, and working with him, and observing him working with himself. One thing that stood out was how he accepted the event without the typical anguish and frustration and self pity that many stroke victims evidence in western society. His was an illuminating example, they said, because he didn't try with typical western egotism and hardheadedness to go back to what he was and had before the event,a course pretty much destined for failure, bitterness, anger, misery and ultimate doom. The writers were putting this up before the geriatric community as a deifferent way for seniors to view and consider their own possible encounters with the experience, perhaps to come or already a fact in their lives. Ram Dass spoke of the gentle surprises that accomapnied his slow but definite recovery; a recovery those original attending doctors initially completely wrote off, as not worth even addressing him as a human being anymore in those first days after the stroke took place. He spoke of his own distant amusement at the long gaps in his memory for words, terms, vocabulary, and appropriate expression to verbalize what he desired to tell the writers. Sometimes the right words would come after long silences. Sometimes no words would come forward at all and he had to just smile and shrug and meet the writer's eyes for connection, when the brain could not produce the sought for terms. But he readily acknowleded that sometimes it was so--yet it didn't detract from the human encounter of the writer and he and how the day felt or went. The writer came away deeply impressed and moved by the complete picture, of a man who was finding his own lifelong path taking this profound turn, and still discovering it served him--and therefore others after him-- in ways deeper than he or anyone else had ever forseen. Ram Dass recovered a surprising amount of function the stroke first changed for him. And once he built up enough strength in his rehab program, he turned some of his effort to working in sharing what had happened to him, with other stroke victims and agencies that help them, as the article itself was an example. There was not a single ooo-wee- wooo new ageism or hindoo snake oilism anywhere in the entire interview. --- -- i last spoke to Ram Dass in the auditorium of East High School in Denver, one to one, standing down on the floor of the orchestra pit. It was 1987 or so. I had not kept in the know, with regard to him, since then. This article was my first news of him in 15 years. so to be blunt, and to the point, James: i suggest you shut your impudent mouth, and respect your venerated elders. They've earned it- the hard way. what have you lived through, to compare? I doubt you could show the same rare grace, when your time comes. You should be so fortunate.

Subject: You sound like a Christian Scientist From: Tonette To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 17:02:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Janet, So, good old Ram has something over on the doctors and the rest of the world, unless you're a spiritual avatar like him. He recovered from a stroke somewhat. That is not news. Lots of people have done it. Science and medicine has yet to begin to understand how seemingly dead neurons can transfer their connections and function to other healthy parts of the brain. Please know also that the initial injury of a stoke causes swelling and sometimes creates a bleed. That also greatly affects functioning of the brain in the immediate weeks following a CVA. The slant of this story which I find troubling and which you have qualified as something for medical history is this: 'He spoke of how he lay there, unable to communicate in any form but to open his eyes and follow people around the room. He spoke of how it took hi a number of days to get the gaze of one of the personnel and hold it, until the doctor perceived that he was very much aware and alive in there, and far from ready to be wiped off the slate and forgotten. The article went on to explain that the medical community came to view Ram Dass's case as a new, instructive area of awareness from which to understand stroke victims more fully, and that they had incorporated changes into their whole general teaching on the matter as a result of watching his progress, and working with him, and observing him working with himself.' Well I would hope this facility and it's members would use Ram's brush with death as a 'new, instructive area of awareness,' since this particular hospital didn't even realize he was alive much less how to help him. Yes, they can use lots of instruction, indeed. That is, if you believe what you wrote in the first place. Then there is this little sentance which pretty much lumps all of us rational, everyday type people, into a category which frankly, I find offensive. 'One thing that stood out was how he accepted the event without the typical anguish and frustration and self pity that many stroke victims evidence in western society. His was an illuminating example, they said, because he didn't try with typical western egotism and hardheadedness to go back to what he was and had before the event,a course pretty much destined for failure, bitterness, anger, misery and ultimate doom.' You know, I've worked with stroke victims. That statement is so profoundly unfair and downright ignorant. Let's look for a glance at Lou Gehrig's Disease. Maybe if Steven Hawkins took a few lessons from good old Ram he might stand to make a vast improvement in how he views and considers his own medical condition, I mean encounter. 'And once he built up enough strength in his rehab program, he turned some of his effort to working in sharing what had happened to him, with other stroke victims and agencies that help them.' How noble, how wonderful. Good, I'm glad he did. People after all do need each other. 'There was not a single ooo-wee- wooo new ageism or hindoo snake oilism anywhere in the entire interview.' Really? I guess I'd better learn what that means exactly. No hindo snake oil, no new ageism. Phrases like; accepting things without prejudice, instructive area of awareness, western egotism, encounters with the experience, lifelong path, how the day felt, meet the writer's eyes for connection, sure sounds warped, I mean new agey, to me. I fact it's practically voodoo. And this Janet, what inpired me to post this in the first place. 'James: i suggest you shut your impudent mouth, and respect your venerated elders. They've earned it- the hard way. what have you lived through, to compare? I doubt you could show the same rare grace, when your time comes. You should be so fortunate.' The arrogance of that statement is only equalled by it's viciousness and anger. Take care Janet. You can believe anything you want. Whatever gets you thru the night. Tonette

Subject: Re: You sound like a Christian Scientist From: Dep To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:21:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tonette, What? No bad words about Christian Science?

Subject: Bad words. No, I am trying to talk with you. From: Tonette To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:17:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: These words that I type are trying to relay to you and Janet another view point, mine. They are trying to convey how and why I find certain statements, from both of you ludricous, arrogant, ignorant and dangerous. They are not meant to be insulting. This is a forum for pete's sake! You post here looking for responses, just as I do. You post because you may get to help people, just as I do. You love your family, just as I do. We breathe the same air, share the same body parts, except for the reproductive system, you are a guy I take it and hopefully not neutered. Anyway following me so far? You are looking for a spiritual bullet to top Maharaji. You have no problem dabbling in just about anything. Okay. Fine. Go for it. I hope you find a replacement. But I worry about people like you. You could conceivably end up in a worse cult than the one you just recently exited. Maharaji was benign when compared to some cults we all know about. Benign for you and I when compared to some who post here. There are some seriously hurt people from all age groups, children included. Have I insulted you yet? If so, sorry, there is no intent on my part to do that. I want you to understand something about me. It was not just my involvement with Maharaji's teachings that taught me, that brought me to where I am now. How could it have been? Look at the world. Religion, spirituality yes has maybe fed some poor, educated some children, done good works, notable ones in fact. How is that balanced when weighed with all the wars, confusion and cults it's created? Turn on the news. My Allah is going to beat the hell out of your God. My experience as a nurse. There's some real unfair shit that gets dealt to people that did not deserve it! But life's like that, now isn't it? My journey as a mother. Looking at and watching my children grow into the beautiful individuals that they are has taught volumnes more than any teachings of Maharaji or experiences of K. You have a family you mentioned. Children? Surely you must agree with this point of mine. These are the highlights, the major contributing factors that come to mind when I try and tell you and Janet I have no patience, no regard, nothing but disdain and disgust when I read crap like, Love is energy and Ram Das was something to be admired. But this is a chat board. The worst sort of communication in that, it is non-verbal. So easy to get the wrong impression, so easy to get insulted. So I will not be insulted, nor hurt by your one line sentence to me about bad words. But I do get a very clear message that you are not open to a person such as myself. The conversation is over on your part. Yes? No? But, I will not hestitate if I read something written by you, Janet or anyone for that matter, that strikes my fancy to reply to. Don't worry, I don't post nearly as much as you. Do not read here everyday. I don't know much about Christian Science, not in depth. But from what I've read there's no 'science' to prove it's claims and it certainly doesn't work for the vast majority. Give me an antiobiotic as opposed to Christian Science if I have pneumonia. Chemo if I have cancer. A vaccine if there is a Smallpox outbreak. Frankly the followers, believers of this 'faith' sound almost as nuts as the premies who believe M might be divine. But those are bad words about it. You asked, should I have said nothing at all? Take care, Scott Tonette

Subject: Thanks, Tonette From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 17:24:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Perhaps Janet has never known any stroke victims. Ram was typical except of course everything that happens to these New Ajists is miraculously special and different from us heathens. I'm glad you had the patience to spell it out for Janet. I couldn't even be bothered to read it after the first paragraph. In fact I can't be bothered to read most of Janets' posts lately. She definitely needs a New Age forum where this garbage can go unchallenged. But I'm sure she has already found her birds of a feather on the net - it's full of this kind of crap.

Subject: It's tiresome From: Tonette To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 18:49:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's people like Janet at times and Deputy Dog all the time that make me wonder if they have learned anything from their brush with the cult. And I say brush because unlike so many here, Livia, Bai Ji, Jean-Michael and many others come to mind, they lost so little in the process. Their ignorance and their self serving statements do little to hide the fabric though of who they are as people. Uneducated, angry, self centered. You might be fooled at first as a newcomer but it doesn't take long to see the real mccoy behind these black and white words. I'm tired of it. I've stopped reading her posts too until one appeared in the side line of this thread about Ram Das. Deputy is such a waste of breath to try and communicate with. I had to say something. Imagine touting the AARP as a pinnacle of medical journalism, her defense of Ram as something oh so elevated and her remark to Jim. There is hardly ever a reason to be ugly like that. I hope Janet will take you up on your offer. It's generous of your time and effort. So, I should really be 'thanking you,' Pat. Warmly, Tonette

Subject: BEST OF FORUM From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:06:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And I'm not joking. These two paragraphs are brilliant: ''It's people like Janet at times and Deputy Dog all the time that make me wonder if they have learned anything from their brush with the cult. And I say brush because unlike so many here, Livia, Bai Ji, Jean-Michael and many others come to mind, they lost so little in the process. Their ignorance and their self serving statements do little to hide the fabric though of who they are as people. Uneducated, angry, self centered. You might be fooled at first as a newcomer but it doesn't take long to see the real mccoy behind these black and white words.'' Janet and Scooby are not the worst examples of emotional subjectivism and prescientific irrationalism but they do embody one of the worst aspects of New A Jism - a real disrespect for western civilization's values, language, thought and science. These guys are the Luddites of the rational mind and objectivism. You're so damn ''prickly'' Tonette, I get almost get ''gooey.'' :P:C)

Subject: I'm glad you liked it but 'best of,' no way From: Tonette To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 06:20:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Pat, that's sweet. It actually made me blush. Have you been drinking? Just kidding. I'm really hoping this thread is not too old. I want to hear from Janet or Deputy. Their thinking alarms me in that, and I'll say it again, they learned nothing from the con that they bought into, at whatever level they participated in. I do not mean to trash spirituality, whatever that means to any particular person. No, I really don't. I just can not stomach having to read someone 'singing the praises of' another Guru wannabe, a Guru has been, or worse, a person who is esteemed because he followed either one of the former. Take care, Hope your summer is all that you want and more. Give regards to Chuck for me. Love, Tonette