Subject: Donald Duck gets a Knowledge review From: cq To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 12:35:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a Friday funny that's strictly for the birds ... click here (audio file) slonet.org/~rloomis/bloduck.wav

Subject: PS it's his EYEballs he's talking about (nt) From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 13:14:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... isn't it?

Subject: Meditation and rehabilitation of prisoners From: Dep To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 11:11:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This web site provides information on the Vipassana Meditation Technique, as taught by S. N. Goenka. Vipassana is a universal, scientific method towards purifying the mind. It is the practical essence of the teachings of the Buddha. http://www.vri.dhamma.org/ The following web site shows the effect of Vipassana Meditation on quality of life, subjective well-being, and criminal propensity among inmates of Tihar, a maximum security jail in Delhi. Reformation of the offender is being regarded as an ultimate aim of the prison sentence. Rehabilitation of the criminals has become one of the most important objectives of the jail authorities. Apart from the criminal aspect, many inmates manifest mental disorders in prison as a result of stresses of incarceration. The stresses behind the bars include separation from their family members, over crowding, sensory deprivation, exposure to a high-density of hard-core offenders, and a variety of uncertainties, fear, and frustrations. The period of trial is of great stress to the individual. Loss of social status, uncertainty of outcome of the trial, fear of punishment, staying in an unusual place like police station or jail, and financial upsets, also harass the individual. If the trial period is prolonged for months or years which is very common, then the undertrial's mental condition usually worsens. The hard life in the prison further aggravates the situation. Psychological factors such as frustration, hostility, and feelings of helplessness might be the cause or the consequence of criminal behaviour and in some cases, both. Prison reform measures should lead to some reduction in inmate's feelings of hostility, helplessness and other negative emotions. An unfavourable attitude towards law may also be responsible for criminal behaviour and needs to be corrected in the course of reforms. On many occasions it is the feeling of alienation from the mainstream life which results from a misfit of individual goals with cultural norms and it might result in criminal activities. Since Vipassana is believed to be a technique that facilitates deeper psychological introspection and to bring about lasting behavioural changes, it was considered worth while to assess some of these changes in a scientific manner. Vipassana is being practiced in Tihar jail as a prison reform measure with the ultimate goal of prevention of crime and reintegration of prisoners into mainstream society following their discharge from prison. The main aim of the study was to investigate the effect of Vipassana meditation on Subjective Well-Being and Criminal Propensity of Tihar Jail inmates. The study has been conducted on both male (adolescent) and female inmates. Also one of the goals was to see the overall psychological bearing of Vipassana meditation on prison inmates. Vipassana is a genuine non-sectarian methodology for mind control and purification. The question arises could Vipassana work in prison. Prison life is a cursed life. In traditional sense, it is the worst life in every sense. It blocks the overall unfolding of personality. It takes away freedom from the individual. For the inmates life inside prison is bizarre, torturous, painful, unhealthy, suffocating and slave like. The purpose is to make prison life better, to add a humanistic dimension to it, to help the inmates introspect and examine themselves and possibly understand the purpose of life better. Vipassana as a meditation technique is dedicated to fulfil these higher goals of life. It is believed that Vipassana has a great role to play in transforming prison life. The positive impact of Vipassana on various aspects of mental health and personality has been reported in a number of studies and it was therefore expected that similar results would come in the case of inmates. The dimensions studied were “well being, hostility, hope, helplessness, personality, psychopathy and in the case of psychiatric disorders, anxiety and depression.” It was followed by another study, which was carried out in April 1994 on 150 subjects. The sample consisted of two groups: one group of 85 subjects who attended a 10 day Vipassana course and the other group of 65 who did not. The dimensions studied were anomie, attitude to law, personality and psychiatric illness. - Immediately after the course, the subjects were found to be less hostile towards their environment and felt less helpless. - The psychiatric patients, constituting about 23% of the total sample, reported good improvement in their anxiety and depressive symptoms. - Subjects without any psychological symptoms also reported improvement in the form of enhanced well being and a sense of hope for the future. - Their sense of alienation from the mainstream life, though unchanged immediately after the course, was found to be lower after three months. - The follow-up evaluations at three and six month intervals revealed further improvement on many of these dimensions. A series of research investigations have revealed that there are many beneficial effects of yoga, which would help in the stress management (Selvamurthy, 1993). Yoga and meditation can contribute positively to various cognitive processes, including perception and in turn, on subjective well-being, quality of life and criminal propensity. Chandiramani, Verma, Dhar, and Aggarwal (1994) have also studied the psychological effects of Vipassana meditation on Tihar jail inmates. They report that Vipassana brought significant improvement in psychological parameters like sense of hope and well-being. There has been considerable reduction in the neurotic predisposition, hostility and feelings of helplessness reported by the prisoners. Mahendram, Kumariah, Mishra, and Baroohi (1998) have observed that Vipassana is effective in reducing tension headaches. Chaudhary (1999) investigated the effectiveness of Vipassana meditation, as a technique of stress management and reformation among adolescent prisoners. In her study, Chaudhary reported that both state anxiety and trait anxiety reduced significantly among adolescents who had done the Vipassana course. She also reported that there was a decrease in aggression among undertrial prisoners who had undergone Vipassana course. There was an increase in the feelings of positive emotions such as, hopefulness, self control, conformity, and compassion, after practicing Vipassana, as compared to non-practitioners of Vipassana. Vipassana meditation courses have been found to bring out many positive changes in the behaviour of jail inmates (Shah, 1976; Unnithan & Ahuja, 1977; Hammersley & Creganj, 1986). On the basis of clinical experience, Chandiramani et al (1995) have stated that mild to moderately severe neurotic cases of anxiety, depression and adjustment problems show complete recovery as a result of Vipassana. They also reported that there was considerable reduction in the neurotic predisposition, hostility and feelings of helplessness reported by the prisoners; while the sense of hope and well being were enhanced, following Vipassana courses. On the basis of the above review of research, Vipassana has a significant positive effect on the quality of life, subjective well-being, and criminal propensity of prisoners. http://www.vri.dhamma.org/publications/tihar.html It has been scientifically proven that Vipassana Meditation has helped rehabilitate dangerous prisoners in the most notorious maximum security jail in India. Jim, do you honestly think you could get these kinds of results from a book on evolution?

Subject: Re: Meditation and rehabilitation of prisoners From: Me again To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 11:49:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They'd probably get better results if they engaged their prisoners in genuine rehabilitation programs, like counselling, teaching the prisoners a trade or engaging them in handicrafts. Unfortunately, I doubt they have the funds for that in India, so they're stuck with meditation. Just like we're stuck with you:):):)

Subject: Any religion has that effect, silly From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 11:33:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Any religion tames the savage beast. Big deal. As for evolution, the way you talk about it is quite funny. You're afraid to learn about it, afraid to read about it, not interested in even talking about it ... but it sticks in your craw nonetheless. Ignorance is bliss, eh Dog?

Subject: emperors new clothes From: jon diener To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 06:48:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have been puzzling over the following paradoxes that have been presented on this site. 1. The expremies appear to put more of their focus on Maharaji then premies do. They spend more time thinking about him then do premies. 2. The exes reflect on and mull over all the Hindu and other religous trappings that most premies left behind decades ago or never paid much attention to even then. My conclusion is that we premies have been remiss in our devotion. You exes have the right idea. We premies need to bring back all these religous ideas and think much more about them as you all do and we need to start thinking about the Master alot as as you all do. Just kidding. Anyway, its been fun and instructive for me dialogueing with you all. But, i feel its runs its course. I do thank you for allowing me space to be here and good luck on your journeys. JON

Subject: Re: emperors new clothes From: cactusjack To: jon diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 11:45:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jon, From your first post you played a transparant little game. Some honest decent people did try to engage with you and have a reasonable intellectual discussion. Your last post is a cynical slap in the face for those people. You are a lot less smart than you think you are. Your last post says nothing about premies or exes but quite a lot about how you treat people. But but as luck would have it you might have stumbled close to the essence of the whole buisness. Exs or premies --who has learnt the teachers lessons well. Who has really followed the master. I personally, over a period of years have carefully studied and observed the teacher. What has GM taught me? 1)Acquiring a whole bunch of money and spending it on myself is just great. Thanks GM for that. 2)Screwing blondes is fun. Well I kinda knew that --- but its good to have the teachers approval. 3)Smoking pot is fun. Again I sort of worked that one out myself-but what the hell all teachings can't be totally original. 4)Ditto-havind a drink. 5)Look after your family and make sure they are well taken care of. Don't abandon them and run off after some old Guru. 6)Have a great car. Actually I used to have an old banger but after GM mentioned how smooth his new BMW was I thought I should try it --- --He was spot on -I love my BMW. 6)Live in a nice place. Brilliant advice. My life brightened up when I moved out of the bad neighbourhood premie house and into a beautiful smart area of town. 7)Be arrogant, be the boss and don't go around kissing other peoples feet or arses. I have modelled my life on GMs and it works--I am happy. Wise up and try it sometime. p.s reply if you want to but as I am going on holiday and as G.M. taught me not to care a f*ck about anybody, I may not reply. CJ

Subject: Following Maharaji - Great Post, CJ! From: JHB To: cactusjack Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 13:10:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Welcome CJ! If this is your first post, I hope you will hang around and write some more:-) John.

Subject: Re: emperors new clothes From: I couldn't resist:) To: jon diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 11:04:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course exes spend more time 'thinking' about m-prem than premies do. That's because a 'premie' by the very definition of the word is incapable of any rational or critical thinking about their master. They can only fantasize about him, stuck as they are in their shameful idolatry, but they really can't think about him. Oh, they might pretend that they're capable of rational thinking on the subject, just like they pretend at everything else. And in the end, that's just what they're left with - a pretend existence.

Subject: Cowardice with a pleasant face on it? From: Jim To: jon diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 10:23:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, We all know what's happening here. There is no way in the world that this conversation has 'run its course'. In fact, it was just starting and you know it.

Subject: PS -- final advice (undiluted version) From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 10:32:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It might have made sense to believe the spiritual crap you do a thousand years ago when there was no science to explain much of anything. A hundred years ago, you might have been forgiven for being so lost in the 'humanities' that you overlooked science. Now, though, it's unforgiveable. It's shameless, in fact, to believe as you do and to know nothing at all about evolution as you most obviously don't. That kind of ignorance is unjustifiable and thus you really have only yourself to blame for being so ignorant and confused at this stage in your life. By the way, what happened to Ronnie?

Subject: Jon... From: AJW To: jon diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:03:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, I hope you're not going to run off without answering the questions I asked you below. In case you missed them, here they are again: Do you believe that there is such a thing as a 'Perfect Master'? Do you believe that the patterns and colours you see when you press your eyeballs have some deep, meaningful, significance (it's your true self for example)? What are the negative, and possibly harmful aspect of belonging to a religious cult, for example the Moonies or Hare Krishnas? Looking forward to your reply Anth the Moonie

Subject: Re: premies From: Jethro To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:49:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anth, Even acknowledging your questions is 'mind' to a premie. Has it ever occurred to you that premies actually LIKE premal's behaviour? I think all the 'true seekers' have left. I was thinking recently(yes Anth I DO think sometimes)about my former friends who brought me to m and k whom I admired so much. I used think their jokes about women were jokes, but actually they were not and I see that they like prem's masogynism. I tried recently to get premies (and others) to sign a petition against SaiBaba. Guess what, they deleted me. Anyway, I still think my snot tastes great, Love to Dot Jethro

Subject: give it up, Anth From: gerry To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:25:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Although those are very good and legitimate questions, I've yet to see a premie who has the guts to honestly answer them. I admire your persistence, though

Subject: Yes, well thank you Jon From: gerry To: jon diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 06:58:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You have stimulated some great discussion. Jim so kindly and diligently pointed you in the right direction and I do hope you take the time to read some evolutionary psychology. Your prescientific fantasy stuff of Mother Love and Father God are food for another era.

Subject: More on Hans and his guru From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 09:43:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here’s an excerpt of a private conversation I’m having with an ex who left Rawat and went to some other Radhasoami/Sant Mat branch in the early days. “In fact, I too conversed with Bhagwan Giani Singh, initiate of Baba Sawan Singh and secretary of Kirpal Singh, who in the early eighties confirmed that Maharaji's father had been an initiate of Hazur but due to some scandal had left Beas.” That confirms what we’ve already heard about Hans leaving his guru and starting his own group. Hans ahs definitely been an initiate of the Beas RS/SM branch. I'm trying to know more about it .....

Subject: Re: More on Hans and his guru From: Tom To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 08:23:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David Lane once informed me he heard from Giani Ji that Hans had taken initiation from Sawan Singh (guru of Kirpal Singh, Charan Singh, Darshan Singh, and Jagat Singh). It may be helpful to remind ourselves that in India multiple initiations are very common. Best evidence to date seems to suggest that although Hans may have taken initiation at some point, Sawan Singh clearly was not his primary guru. The 'teachings' of Hans and Prem Rawat are very different from Sawan Singh's anyway.

Subject: Hans Mix From: Jean-Michel To: Tom Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 09:25:12 (PDT) Email Address: ² Message: I guess he made his own mix out of what he grabbed here and there.

Subject: Re: Hans Mix...yes From: Jethro To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 09:47:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and that way he could clain lineage from RamaKrishna and RahdaSoami or some such bolloxology.

Subject: Coagulated in the process From: Jean-Michel To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 10:00:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess ......

Subject: Amaroo-September 3,4,5,6-2002 From: Sulla To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 09:14:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Subj: Amaroo September 3,4,5,6 2002 Date: 6/17/2002 11:57:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: mailinglist@elanvital.org (Elan Vital) Maharaji has accepted an invitation to attend a four-day international event at Ivory's Rock Conference Center, Queensland, Australia from Tuesday September 3 to Friday September 6, 2002. Everyone who has received the techniques of Self-Knowledge is warmly invited to attend. Information on this event is now posted on the Amaroo website http://www.amaroo.org

Subject: Re: Amaroo-September 3,4,5,6-2002 From: Dar Shan To: Sulla Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 16:55:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The darshan collection bins were down a tad at the last event. Bring more money folks, the Leaders article did not bring in what was forecast. Damn those rich CEO guys, doing their research and all. There will be more darshan lines than the last event. Donate often.....that is all.

Subject: Re: Amaroo-September 3,4,5,6-2002 From: D. Votey To: Dar Shan Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 02:15:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As I write I am selling my own grandmother in order to give give and give again. Jai D.

Subject: Neville-any plans for it yet? nt From: la-ex To: Dar Shan Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 21:52:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: oh I gave him LOTTTTS of ideas for it. From: 10 yr spurned aspirant To: la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 01:44:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you can stock up on video cartridges for your camcorders for THIS baby. heh heh heh

Subject: My beliefs are the truth! Honestly! From: Peter Howie To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 01:53:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi all, I put this on Symposium - I feel somewhat conflicted about two forums. Anyway - here's a real ironic thought twist. If this forum is a cult - then Symposium is a breakaway cult. That makes F7 the religion and them the cult. And people who have been here and gone over there are those types with funny names - you know those who fall out so badly that they become anti-whatever -their previous-belief. Anyway - all the best with these ideas. My beliefs are the truth The truth is obvious The truth is based on real data The data I select is the real data Corollary: The data I don't select is not worth bothering about. This means that the way I see to world predicates the data I select - which means I see what supports my view of the truth, or how the world works. I don't see and don't value and don't give even weight to things I don't like. This is also called human nature. It assists me and others to make enough sense of the world so that we don't have to recreate it from scratch on a daily basis. It is impossible to have intimacy and dialogue when both parties insist on being seen, understood and appreciated first. It is called a Mexican standoff in Australia - probably an Australian standoff in Mexico. 6 shooters at high noon stuff. Anyway - this is my contribution to the onging discussions. And my beliefs are the truth, and are based on real data and, by gum, I'll be the one to show you the real data not some other lunkhead!!! Cheers Peter Howie Brisbane, Australia

Subject: Tricky business, objectivity [nt] From: Neville To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 05:58:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject:   From:   To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 08:13:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: www.oz.net/~drek/pics/dancetits.jpg

Subject: Let's talk about me and Re on Symp From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 12:43:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry's blocked the thread here about me and RE so why don't we take it up on Symp? Anyone interested, that's where I'll talk about it further.

Subject: Well, it's a question of respect, Jim From: Lesley To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 16:16:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What are you going to do now, lol.

Subject: Over on Symp, answer you, I will [nt] From: Jim To: Lesley Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 16:17:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: And me too From: Moley To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 13:53:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is the second time in a fortnight or so that I have logged on after being away to find someone posting inflamatory and OT stuff about me here. Loaf - please don't feed trolls. And I won't email you. Seeing as how you didn't email me, but instead chose to go on here. Talk to me in public please. On the Symp. As Gerry must be sick of dealing with OT posts. Not to mention everyone else. And what has Nige got to do with it?

Subject: Knowledge reviews From: The Falcon To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 07:25:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ridiculous idea or what? (this one hasn't taken give it another shot!) Answers and experiences please!

Subject: Re: Knowledge reviews From: Bob schmitz To: The Falcon Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 02:06:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: End of the 80s somewhere in a French coast town. i remember the incredible 1920s architecture with hand painted ceilings in the hotel. It was quite small scale. Although hardly involved for many years, a chance for a 'personal' review from the guru himself was hard to pass up. The circumstances were proper for a good concentration, so at the end of the day I was in a peaceful state. What I thought was weird was that one was not supposed to use a beragon anymore. I clearly had not the type of muscle in my arms which could hold up doing the sound technique,so I heard a lot of rumbling from muscles transmitted to the ears. The explanation of why this change was that it was more natural this way. Hard to buy. Premies are so used filling in the blanks: People around me did not want to discuss it or the ones that did: We immediately invented that this way a connection between important acupuncture meridians was established, by which k. would (finally) work! We also decided that it would be politically incorrect for m. to mention this.... The spirits around me seemed very high. This ended rather abruptly when m. delivered his final speech, with a lot of stupid wordplay jokes about an ass, both meaning donkey and rectum. How weird that m.,who had actually been present quite some of the time supervising (?)the meditation obviously did not catch up with its elevating effect! Of course you never know for sure: 1 perhaps my peaceful feeling was only a limited stage of a greater scope, less limited. 2 perhaps m. wanted to shock us (although I thougt this was not smart timing even from a divine perspective) 3 most of the people present were at such a low level that the satsang was appropriate for them. At the time I very much wanted to see m. as a teacher. His speech planted a lot of drips and doubts in me. I did continue to meditate for a while. Something else happened during this event: During my ashram years I was looked down on a lot, because of absent mindedness caused by LSD and ADD. I asked m. a question about absent mindedness and practising k. He replied and actually said something that I was not crazy.. This did heal a lot of pain and caused a great deal of respect from those in the community who were always picking on me. During the following 2 months of involvement i did enjoy this change of attitude. After that period m started to elevate himself more and more, and a sort of mahatma did a fundraising tour, and that was enough. This was my last bout of involvement. Just over a year later it was finally time to exit. I did so by revealing the techniques to some interested. It was the time of my divorce, because the often violent and abusive marriage was only stable when we were both on the fringes of the cult.

Subject: Re: Knowledge reviews From: Vicki To: Bob schmitz Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:26:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for taking the time to write this post. I too remember his taking away the baragon saying if we were without one, we wouldn't practice! The knowledge review I was in was in Snowmass, Colorado. The elevation was high; it was nearly impossible to breathe. We broke out into little rooms so he could oversee them. I remember there was a big deal being made that this was the first time in a bazillion years that the perfect master had personally given a knowledge review, and something about the big wheels turning us all in the right direction. I found out that one of the Mahatmas, Charanand maybe?, was given knowledge by Shri Hans personally. All the people he had given knowledge to had the right techniques all along. It was all so strange. But at the time, I was in it without questioning a thing, and the rational didn't phase me at all. I did always think his goofball potty jokes were weird. And his obsession with bodily functions. I know now, thanks to EPO! I only wish I'd known it all back then. Saved me quite a lot of money, it would have indeed.

Subject: Re: memory lane.. From: Bob Schmitz To: Vicki Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 11:08:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How many hours did you sleep on a beragon? For me it must have been thousands. Once I reade an interview with the Dalai Lama about meditation. he said that it is very stupid to meditate longer than you can concentrate, because it creates the habit of inattention,which is,like all bad habits, hard to break. I think m. has capitalized on the difficulty for many of us to get down to business (which would be, from the start, sitting down and practice the techniques). It always amazes me that in many 'groups' there is not this reluctance to 'just do it' which has been so characteristic for premies. But then, there was this excuse, this next best thing, which gradually became the one and only thing: the devotion stuff. rather do service a whole night than really meditating an hour(especially when already severely sleep deprived). If anybody had experiences, it sure were'nt the ashram premies. Only very few premies had this ability, and also very few mahatmas.

Subject: Re: Knowledge reviews From: Inside Edition To: The Falcon Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 21:09:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, I thought it was a real big deal (at the time) to FINALLY be getting a review from Ratwat himself. Nice to now know he was stepping out for a smoke between techniques.

Subject: Reviewing What? From: Gregg To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 20:11:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hadn't seen M for a very long time. Then I went to a Knowledge Review. You would think that would be a review of...about...well, something to do with 'Knowledge,' right? Hmmm. First of all, what is Knowledge? Sorry. That wasn't the issue. What was covered in the K. R. session was the techniques. The simplest techniques in Hindudom. So what's to review? Not much. You'd think M would pretend to transmit something during these sessions. Believe me, if he had pretended to do something like that, he audience would have gone apeshit. But, instead, he just went over the rules and went out for a break whilst we practiced the same techniwues we'd practiced for years. Sad, really, that GMJ could not even pretend to be a guru. After having claimed to be God.

Subject: The fact is that he's From: Jethro To: Gregg Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 20:32:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: bored shitless. he odes to kee[ up the interest. For most premies it's just an excuse for more darshan. I went to one knowledge review with him in the 80s. Almost everybody there was peeking at him walking around when they were meant to be doing the techniques. You know, it's like being given the password to RE and using it. How could anyone resist? Cheers jethro

Subject: Re: Knowledge reviews From: PatD To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 13:44:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So it wasn't bullseye 1st time for you then? Joking apart,I remember a k review with the greater etc in the early '90's,when he explained that it wasn't necessary to put your tongue all the way up.Just resting it as far back as you could go was sufficient.Lots of piss taking about old premies,who'd cut whatever it's called underneath,in order to do it the old way. I was taken aback by that,but as my involvement with the whole thing by then was on the level of fuehrerkontakt/see old mates....a bit like sex tourism without the sex,I brushed it aside as just one of good old Prem's human foibles. Little did I know then that the guy had always been one foible short of the 7 deadly sins all his life.

Subject: Moley, Nigel and Heller From: Loaf To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 04:16:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It has come to my attention that Moley has been letting Jim Heller use her password to access Recent Exes for nearly a year. If either Nigel or Moley want to get in touch with me to talk about this, it might be in their best interests. I think a full explaination and apology is needed. It is the behaviour of a shit.

Subject: Re: Moley, Nigel and Heller From: Richard C. To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 07:37:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In view of the above revelation by Loaf, I would like to ask the following questions concerning the recent postings by David Aspinall: a) Does the FA of the time now regret his decision to leave these threads, and the poster concerned, open to public strutiny for some days, instead of doing what common sense demanded, and delete them immediately as being inconsequent to the business of this Forum? b) Do all those people who sprang instantly and unreservedly to Moley's support on these occasions, without probably knowing anything of the facts of the situation concerned (a private relationship), now regret their impulse to react instinctively as a group against the perceived interests of one of its members? c) Is there not an issue of natural justice here? d) Is this present situation now an indication that it is time for some persons on this Forum to desist generally and forthwith from lambasting perceived opponents with immediate questioning of their integrity, honour, and abusive (sometimes obscene) language, and to return to an earlier practice of confronting opposing views with proven fact, reasoned argument and sometimes restraint in the face of provocation? Is this not the better way to win the high moral ground in such situations? Richard C., who isn't a premie, abandoned it years ago with massive relief, doesn't know David Aspinall from Satpal, but who greatly respects the work of EPO, and who recently has been dismayed at the fall in its behavioural standards.

Subject: Off Topic...Richard C... From: Cynthia To: Richard C. Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 08:28:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And in the wrong thread to boot! Btw, the above 'revelation by Loaf' is an allegation right now. It'll be worked out. Also, this is not the place to post about personal and private familial matters about anyone. Who's David Aspinall? I never heard of him until he posted a couple of times recently. It's posts like yours that make this forum stink. Who are you to jump in here without any real explanation?

Subject: I agree with Cynthia From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 08:44:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Question to Jim From: Mike Finch To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 04:43:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim I remember a while ago that we had a discussion (or was it an argument? No, I think it was a genteel discussion! Several in fact) about RE. My assumption, based on what you wrote, was that you did not know what was being said in RE. My question is: At that time, were you actually reading RE, so that you knew all about it? Or can you not remember? Just curious. Take care -- Mike (note that I have closed the gaps between the ends of my sentences and the exclamation or question marks.)

Subject: Re: Question to Jim From: Robyn To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 04:57:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He has been reading since last September Quite sure there will be years worth of justifications Jim is in my life to teach me how to deal with the lowest of the low on this earth Good job Jim Robyn

Subject: right to privacy From: Vicki To: Robyn Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:16:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: This thread has all the makings From: gerry To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:29:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: of a huge protracted personal pitched feverish emotional fight, and that's bad for business. Chuck and Pat have kindly assented to allowing their forum as an outlet for this discussion. Here's the link: The Symposium

Subject: my experiences and reflections From: jon diener To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 22:03:29 (PDT) Email Address: jdiener@gilanet.com Message: I have been reading the ex-premie web sites for a few weeks now and I feel a desire to speak my personal truth and understanding (or lack it depending on your point of view) I received Knowledge in 1971 and lived in the ashram from 72-76. I am currently a lawyer part-time and have a small farm. I consider myself undogmatic, willing to analyze and think and with an open mind. I had no religous or spiritual training or xperiences prior to meeting Maharaji`(other than psychedelic drugs and the Grateful Dead, if those count !) I also have sought understanding and truth in forums and means other than Maharaji since receiving Knowledge. I have considered the words of the ex-premies, I feel, with an open mind and listened for what truth might be there. What I come back to and what I believe is the real bottom line are the experiences I have had with Maharaji. These experiences were not religious fervour ( I am not a religious sort of person) or mentally induced experiences. They were palpable and for me, unquestionably real experiences in the sense that feeling the heat of the sun, or a wave of grief when my father died, or hurt when a lover spurned me, etc. were real experiences. Although my experiences with Maharaji were of a somewhat different character. Putting them into words is not so easy in the first place and particularly when faced with the skepticism that I anticipate. But I’ll try to put a few words down here: when with Maharaji personally, at events or in some of the few brief personal encounters I had with him, I sometimes felt a sort of radiant joy that would envelop me and would give me a sense of enjoying and appreciating the grandness and uniqueness of life and of myself. Sometimes the joy would be so strong and pervasive and nourishing that I would call it bliss. Sometimes I had a sense of the innate perfection and magic of life. These were experiences. They were not mental constructs. And while they were clearly within me it is clear to me also that they were awakened by Maharaji. They happened in my contact with him. They also happened somewhat at satsang and occasionally when I practiced the tecniques. Now as to Maharaji claiming to be God, and the whole guruworship thing: I lived in the ashram and went to India in the heyday of what ex-premies have negatively labeled as “guru-worship”. I remember contemplating in those days whether Maharaji was “God” or what his relationship to God actually was. I also remember him saying he was not God.(And of course, we might want to think about just what we mean by “God” anyway. What God is to you may not what God is to me.) I never felt compelled to think of Maharaji as God by him or by the mahatmas or anyone else. My take on it then was is pretty similar to now. What I thought then was that he was a channel of divine feelings and the consciousness of what is divine. That he was attuned to the sorts of feelings and understandings that God is associated with, but he was not the Creator of the Universe. I remember his equating God with the phrase satchitanand or just energy, which was clearly a state of mind and not an authority figure. And for God’s sake, Lord of the Universe, you tell me what a Lord is: something above a vassal in feudal times ? Somebody from the House of Lords ? What we meant or at least I meant when I sang that song, was someone with a great power to unlock some mysteries of life and of the Universe, someone who could show me the magic that is woven into this Universe, that was the “Lord of the Universe” for me - not some God who could, by his very thought, create human beings or dissolve planets. If anyone was thinking about Maharaji like that, then you liked that idea. It was certainly not inherent in having Maharaji in your life or having Knowledge. Translating profound experiences into words and mental constructs is a tricky business and I believe Maharaji may have, in part through his Hindu upbringing, interpreted the guru-devotee thing in ways that led people into religious sorts of thinking. But I also remember him quite clearly doing the opposite, emphatically stating that Kowledge was not a religion, that it was about an experience and that our ideas about it were not it. I always felt it was inherently my responsibility to understand what he and the Knowledge were about rather than latch onto concepts or words he said and think that I must find all meaning there. That is following scripture and creating religion. However, I made mistakes with Knowledge and Maharaji. I projected unsatisfied longings for a parental figure onto Maharaji. When I realized I had been doing that I owned it and worked on my painful relationship with my parents. I also realized that I had been too reliant on the ashram setting and that if this was a real means of enlightenment, it could not be so limited to a prescribed setting. So I left. Incidentally, I have a tape from the mid-seventies in which Maharaji talks about the ashrams as hospitals where someone beat up from his travails in life could go to sort of cool out and get some balance, but then should go out again and experience the world rather than just stay in the protected environment. I believe I avoided other sorts of life experiences that were necessary for my growth by focusing so exclusively on Knowledge and Maharaji for some years there. But, I never felt Maharaji asked me to do that. What I feel is that man-woman relationships for one, my difficult relationships with my family members of origin for another, how to fit into society at large were issues I wanted to avoid and would have done so in some way or another with or without Knowledge. I remember being sort of relieved when I moved into the ashram about the sex thing since I was having a lot of troubles in that area anyway. I want to also say that for some expremies who were caught up in a religious or unsatisfying sort of relationship with Maharaji and Knowledge, I can understand your needing to move back from the whole thing to get some perspective. I can understand that your need is to experience life without any of your prior mindset. But to throw out the baby with the bathwater and deny that you had any real experiences with Maharaji at all seems to me to be a form of denial. Perhaps it is very difficult to reconcile with some of your negative feelings. Perhaps it makes sense to resent and rage at someone whom you were dependent on in an unhealthy way. I did a lot of that with my parents and maybe it helped me individuate. But there came a time when I needed to see that much of my blame for them was coming from my own insecurity and fears of the responsibility and the freedom of being an independent actor in life. I know some of this sounds sort of like I know better than you and I don’t really have such a high opinion of myself like that. I suffer and struggle and learn lessons in very hard ways. I think that the experience Maharaji awakened in me was very difficult to assimilate given all my conditioning, emotional scars and generally my inclinations towards negative emotions. It has been a tremendous challenge to know about a state or pure joy and be struggling with all the negative feelings I have struggled with hopelessness, rage, self-hate, etc. etc. There have been times when I raged at Maharaji for making life sound so simple and joyful and holding out the notion that happiness is attainable when my life was so opposite that. But little by little I have been making my way and I appreciate the experiences I have had with him. They are a basic part of my understanding about what is possible and what I want in life. JON DIENER I have been reading the ex-premie web sites for a few weeks now and I feel a desire to speak my personal truth and understanding (or lack it depending on your point of view) and lived in the ashram from 72-76. I am currently a lawyer part-time and have a small farm. I consider myself undogmatic, willing to analyze and think and of an open mind. I had no religous or spiritual training or experiences prior to meeting Maharaji`(other than psychedelic drugs and the Grateful Dead, if those count !) I also have sought understanding and truth in forums and means other than Maharaji since receiving Knowledge. I have considered the words of the ex-premies, I feel, with an open mind and listened for what truth might be there. What I come back to and what I believe is the real bottom line are the experiences I have had with Maharaji. These experiences were not religious fervour ( I am not a religious sort of person) or mentally induced experiences. They were palpable and for me, unquestionably real experiences in the sense that feeling the heat of the sun, or a wave of grief when my father died, or hurt when a lover spurned me, etc. were real experiences. Although my experiences with Maharaji were of a somewhat different character. Putting them into words is not so easy in the first place and particularly when faced with the skepticism that I anticipate. But I’ll try to put a few words down here: when with Maharaji personally, at events or in some of the few brief personal encounters I had with him, I sometimes felt a sort of radiant joy that would envelop me and would give me a sense of enjoying and appreciating the grandness and uniqueness of life and of myself. Sometimes the joy would be so strong and pervasive and nourishing that I would call it bliss. Sometimes I had a sense of the innate perfection and magic of life. These were experiences. They were not mental constructs. And while they were clearly within me it is clear to me also that they were awakened by Maharaji. They happened in my contact with him. They also happened somewhat at satsang and occasionally when I practiced the tecniques. Now as to Maharaji claiming to be God, and the whole guruworship thing: I lived in the ashram and went to India in the heyday of what ex-premies have negatively labeled as “guru-worship”. I remember contemplating in those days whether Maharaji was “God” or what his relationship to God actually was. I also remember him saying he was not God.(And of course, we might want to think about just what we mean by “God” anyway. What God is to you may not what God is to me.) I never felt compelled to think of Maharaji as God by him or by the mahatmas or anyone else. My take on it then was is pretty similar to now. What I thought then was that he was a channel of divine feelings and the consciousness of what is divine. That he was attuned to the sorts of feelings and understandings that God is associated with, but he was not the Creator of the Universe. I remember his equating God with the phrase satchitanand or just energy, which was clearly a state of mind and not an authority figure. And for God’s sake, Lord of the Universe, you tell me what a Lord is: something above a vassal in feudal times ? Somebody from the House of Lords ? What we meant or at least I meant when I sang that song, was someone with a great power to unlock some mysteries of life and of the Universe, someone who could show me the magic that is woven into this Universe, that was the “Lord of the Universe” for me - not some God who could, by his very thought, create human beings or dissolve planets. If anyone was thinking about Maharaji like that, then you liked that idea. It was certainly not inherent in having Maharaji in your life or having Knowledge. Translating profound experiences into words and mental constructs is a tricky business and I believe Maharaji may have, in part through his Hindu upbringing, interpreted the guru-devotee thing in ways that led people into religious sorts of thinking. But I also remember him quite clearly doing the opposite, emphatically stating that Kowledge was not a religion, that it was about an experience and that our ideas about it were not it. I always felt it was inherently my responsibility to understand what he and the Knowledge were about rather than latch onto concepts or words he said and think that I must find all meaning there. That is following scripture and creating religion. However, I made mistakes with Knowledge and Maharaji. I projected unsatisfied longings for a parental figure onto Maharaji. When I realized I had been doing that I owned it and worked on my painful relationship with my parents. I also realized that I had been too reliant on the ashram setting and that if this was a real means of enlightenment, it could not be so limited to a prescribed setting. So I left. Incidentally, I have a tape from the mid-seventies in which Maharaji talks about the ashrams as hospitals where someone beat up from his travails in life could go to sort of cool out and get some balance, but then should go out again and experience the world rather than just stay in the protected environment. I believe I avoided other sorts of life experiences that were necessary for my growth by focusing so exclusively on Knowledge and Maharaji for some years there. But, I never felt Maharaji asked me to do that. What I feel is that man-woman relationships for one, my difficult relationships with my family members of origin for another, how to fit into society at large were issues I wanted to avoid and would have done so in some way or another with or without Knowledge. I remember being sort of relieved when I moved into the ashram about the sex thing since I was having a lot of troubles in that area anyway. I want to also say that for some expremies who were caught up in a religious or unsatisfying sort of relationship with Maharaji and Knowledge, I can understand your needing to move back from the whole thing to get some perspective. I can understand that your need is to experience life without any of your prior mindset. But to throw out the baby with the bathwater and deny that you had any real experiences with Maharaji at all seems to me to be a form of denial. Perhaps it is very difficult to reconcile with some of your negative feelings. Perhaps it makes sense to resent and rage at someone whom you were dependent on in an unhealthy way. I did a lot of that with my parents and maybe it helped me individuate. But there came a time when I needed to see that much of my blame for them was coming from my own insecurity and fears of the responsibility and the freedom of being an independent actor in life. I know some of this sounds sort of like I know better than you and I don’t really have such a high opinion of myself like that. I suffer and struggle and learn lessons in very hard ways. I think that the experience Maharaji awakened in me was very difficult to assimilate given all my conditioning, emotional scars and generally my inclinations towards negative emotions. It has been a tremendous challenge to know about a state or pure joy and be struggling with all the negative feelings I have struggled with hopelessness, rage, self-hate, etc. etc. There have been times when I raged at Maharaji for making life sound so simple and joyful and holding out the notion that happiness is attainable when my life was so opposite that. But little by little I have been making my way and I appreciate the experiences I have had with him. They are a basic part of my understanding about what is possible and what I want in life. JON DIENER

Subject: Jon, a couple of questions... From: AJW To: jon diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 06:35:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, It's nice to see a premie stick around and answer a few questions. Often they fire off a salvo and run off to the fridge for six months. I'd like to ask you a couple of things about what you believe. Do you believe that there is such a thing as a 'Perfect Master'? Do you believe that the patterns and colours you see when you press your eyeballs have some deep, meaningful, significance (it's your true self for example)? What are the negative, and possibly harmful aspect of belonging to a religious cult, for example the Moonies or Hare Krishnas? Looking forward to your replies. Anth, who's had a few experiences and reflections too.

Subject: Re: Jon, a couple of questions... From: Jon Diener To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:01:03 (PDT) Email Address: jdiener@gila net.com Message: Anth: I feel like my time on this site is sort of up. If you want to email me these questions, i put my email address on some of my first posts, I'll respond to you privately and to any others to the extent time and interest allow. JON JON

Subject: see, what did I tell you, Anth [nt] From: gerry To: Jon Diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:27:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: my experiences and reflections From: The Falcon To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 02:51:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jon, I have answered your response to me below but just wanted to say that Maharaji said 'I am the perfect master' at least once at Alexandra Place in London, 1973. (J-M, please look out as I am dredging up a pal's archive, it's all there!!!) I remember it well, the whole stage had been constructed from building materials stolen by the WPC ashram who also made a good living stealing the lead off roofs, particularly church roofs.rendering unto God what is God's, they said at the time.( I'm not saying who because they are mates). The event was like the Nuremberg Rally with James Last in accompaniment, sorry that should read Bhole Ji, who was more into James Last than Maharaji at the time, even dressed like him. The greatest punishment that Mata Ji ever inflicted on Bhole Ji was when she took away his James Last albums, perhaps that is why he went back too India with her, yes, now it all makes sense! Sorry about the trip down memory lane, coming soon- snorting coacine with Raja Ji, never got to puff with 'the master' though, mind you I'm too X-rated even for him. When you have read my post in the thread below please respond. all the best

Subject: Lead off church roofs. From: PatD To: The Falcon Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 13:30:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes,I heard that one in passing,along with many more. So don't be shy,let's have the information.Information is the main reason I keep on with these forums, as I can't be bothered with the deconstuction of spirituality stuff,except now & again, We've had the corporate culture Rawat revelations from Dettmers etc,but the early days set up ...well that's a mystery isn't it? Seems like no-one has ever come forward to explain how donations to DLM(UK)went to an entity called WB.Stores.Ltd,& so on & so forth. I know it's tricky with old mates,I've got a few myself,but the ins & outs of how Guru Maharaj Ji set himself up in London with the aid of dope dealers,rock&roll business peripherals & general wide boys has yet to be written. I can't do it as I was too far away from the action to hear anything but the rumours.

Subject: Hey Jon, remember me? From: Jim To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 12:36:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, Don't you remember? You and your then-wife Ronnie met Deborah and me when we first moved to L.A. Met us at that tiny, little satsang thing in Hollywood, I believe. Ronnie turned us on to the 'He', 'She' and 'We' books which I enjoyed then (Hillman? James Hillman?). I think you even had us over for dinner once, or maybe it was the other way around. We had that townhouse on King's Road in West Hollywood? You were already in law school at 'SC, I believe, and were in third year when I started. That is essentially what I remember about you on that level. Otherwise, I recall you as very serious and kind of quiet, almost morose, quite honestly. I recall that you used to play guitar and I invited you to jam with me once but you begged off on the grounds that you were 'working on' yourself and such indulgences were distractions and counter-productive. Do you remember that? Jon, you summarize the basis for your continued faith in Maharaji as follows: What I come back to and what I believe is the real bottom line are the experiences I have had with Maharaji. These experiences were not religious fervour ( I am not a religious sort of person) or mentally induced experiences. They were palpable and for me, unquestionably real experiences in the sense that feeling the heat of the sun, or a wave of grief when my father died, or hurt when a lover spurned me, etc. were real experiences. Although my experiences with Maharaji were of a somewhat different character. I think, however, that if you look closely at this you'll see this justification extremely wanting. First, it's just wilfull on your part to say your experiences were not 'mentally induced'. Even IF one could somehow replicate whatever you're calling your experiences in some sort of scientific experiment wherein you had no idea what to expect, the fact is that's not at all how you came by them and thus you're simply unable to say to what extent your pre-conceptions and conditioning affected both what you experienced and how you interpreted it. No, that's just wishful thinking on your part. The fact is, scientists can now replicate the 'divine' experience by simply stimulating certain parts of the brain. Check out the link which includes this passage: Pioneering TMS researcher Michael Persinger, a neuropsychologist at Canada's Laurentian University in Sudbury, Ontario, is doing even more astounding work. By stimulating specific areas in the right hemisphere of the brain, he is able to induce mystical states of consciousness, giving some subjects the experience of encountering God. In scientific terminology, he uses a specific, precisely timed, repetitive signal - one dubbed the 'Thomas Pulse' - to create a 'sensed presence' in the test subject's brain. Some volunteers have reported feelings of pleasant detachment, while others have broken into a panic, convinced the test chamber is 'hexed'. And some have had direct experience of the divine. Persinger is convinced that naturally occurring electromagnetic fluctuations could be responsible for paranormal experiences like ghosts, UFOs and mystical apparitions. Some have argued, on the basis of Persinger's work, that religion itself could be electromagnetic in origin - and the transcendent experiences like those recounted by saints and mystics can be recreated with electromagnetic pulses in his laboratory. Besides that, though, your analogies don't work, I think. Feeling the heat of the sun is an interesting one because I guess there might have been a time when we knew it was up there but didn't know at all what it was. We could feel its heat but might have misunderstood what even that was. Science has helped us put that all together. There's no such science that I'm aware of that even begins to support Maharaji's claim that there's a secret fountain of happiness within, that God's waiting to show it to you, etc. (unless, of course, you want to talk about the pineal gland and sine wave chapter in Who is Guru Maharaj Ji? :)). And the other examples are just examples of feelings. Knowledge is presented as much, much more than a feeling. What you really need to do, I think, is expand your frame of reference. Read some science, if you haven't already. Read some evolution, for one thing. The whole idea that the breath is conscious is a very naive pre-scientific superstition that flies in the face of all we know about who we are and how we got here. You should also read the Indian Background section of EPO when you can. It's at: http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/indian.htm Maharaji, like his brother, like their father, like their father's many competitors, like their father's guru, like their father's guru's many competitors, is just trotting out the same drivel that's overwhelmed India for hundreds if not thousands of years. Worshipping one's breath, even thinking it's conscious, might have seemed inspired and incontrovertibly appealing once. It's just supersition, though, and makes no more sense than worshipping one's blood. Once you see through the teachings, you can see the man better and won't have to contort your good mind into such bizarre and unsatisfying shapes to try to reconcile the impossible. Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation www.erowid.org/spirit/devices/devices_article1.shtml

Subject: Re: Hey Jon, remember me? From: jon diener To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 21:12:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah. I thought I knew that name, but coldn't place you Well youre right I was pretty morose and serious in those days. On the other hand, I thought then that you were kind of lost in your head and out of touch with your feelings and your heart and frankly you still seem to be. I apologize for being so frank when you have been rather friendly to me here in cyberspace. You could pass it off to just my premie nonsense. Anyhow I do remember you played Morning Dew and your wife was very pretty. Yes, it was at your house on King's Road that we had dinner.

Subject: That's interesting From: Jim To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 14:54:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Morning Dew for sure. Yes, Deborah (not Deborah Rose who used to post here!) was pretty and yes I was in my head alright. But lost? No, Jon, I don't think so. I was just beginning to ask the questions I'd stifled in the ashram for all those years just before I met you. I was thinking, looking around, getting my feet wet as a person who could actually enjoy my mind, rather than fear or distance myself from it continually. You know, it's funny. When we first moved to LA, around the time Deb and I met you and Ronnie and shortly after we'd both left the ashram in Calgary, I borrowed two books from my dad's place: The Peoples' Almanac, Volumes One and Two. Ever seen them? Filled with tons of neat, capsule histories, curiosities, profiles. Just a grab bag of stuff which was then quite timely as the books hadn't been out long. I devoured those suckers! Like a thirst sponge I just ate up all this random, interesting stuff of the world. I remember sitting around some nights giddy with excitement that, hey, this is my time to choose to use however I damn well pleased. This was my apartment (and Deb's of course) and I can sit here, I can sit there, hey I can sit anywhere! I can even -- get this -- buy myself a whole other chair and sit there if I wanted. I could sit anywhere! It was a pleasure to be able to be a person again, Jon. If you call that feeling being cut off from my heart, go for it. I know that I was just then beginning to extricate myself from an ugly mind-control cult and it felt great. I'm sorry that you weren't able to get out as easily but I have no doubt whatsoever that if only you could see -- and feel -- what it's like over here, you'd be exhilarted too. Freedom after enslavement is like that. Now, here's a little potentially insulting speculation for you which I hope you can take in the non-malicious spirit intended. You know those books I mentioned, those James Hillman books? Remember how I said I really liked them then? Well, I have to say that my opinion's changed radically about a lot of that myth-based psychological speculation and theory. It all seems -- or a lot of it seems -- like finger-painting to me now. You can just swirl that stuff around and around and around -- forever, but you never actually get any sort of great, true picture of reality, just a lot of glistening, pretty paint on everything. I think that some of your spiritual speculation, the stuff your mind feels compelled to indulge in as you try to rationalize your continued fealty to this laughable cult leader, is like that kind of psychological gunk generally. It's a fun game but a real time-waster, I believe. Know what I mean?

Subject: Re: That's interesting From: jon diener To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 20:29:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well... truth is I didnt and dont know you all that well and perhaps you were experiencing a new found freedom which I took as being in your head. However, as for me indulging in speculation. Not so.Not so. The stories or ideas I have been talking about resonate very deeply within me and articulate in an expansive way the way I experience existence. Its like seeing the ssame world I see but from a wholly different angle, and with a much broader overview so that I instinctively recognize what I am hearing about, although there is much new information and perspective. I certainly did not think these things to maintain a relationship with Maharaji. For one, I have been reading the Books I mentioned since the mid 80s, long before I had heard any of the revelations about Maharaji which you find so damning of him (and which I don;t). For two, if anything, the truths in these Books brought Maharaji into question as much as they support him as they bring out truths which Maharaji does not much recognize or consider. However, I do agree with you that many concepts and ideas such as those Jungian books He, She It or whatever can become tiresome and simply mental games. I am no longer a voracious reader of 'spiritual' books. I rarely read any of that type these days with the exception of the books I have been referring to.

Subject: Oh no! That's the biggest mind-fuck of them all! From: Jim To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 20:57:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, I didn't recognize the name but did a search and realized that you're actually talking about 'The Right Use of Will', one of the most extreme, toxic, new-age tracts of all time. I actually had a girlfriend in Hawaii when I lived there before coming to Victoria who was into that book and, swear to God, it almost drove her nuts. I mean like really, dark, middle-of-the-night breakdown time. Here's the intro from the book. CLASSIC instant disconnect of one's critical faculties if you buy into it. Like some sort of secret, potent Kung Fu pressure point, it'll put your mind out in two seconds flat -- IF you're naive enough to buy into it (sorry!): If this book is for you, you will know it from these few introductory pages. Realize it is meant to affect you and is not meant to be just a mental exercise. If this book is for you, it will bring forth emotional release. You need to allow this response without harming yourself or others. The unconditional love of the Spirit for everything that exists has been understood on Earth for quite some time. This, in fact, has been called Divine Love. Now there is a need for another understanding on Earth: that of Divine Will. Most people on Earth have made a separation between the Spirit and the Will. They have felt their own Will was not acceptable; that to love the way God loves, they must eliminate their own feelings and opinions and do what they have imagined is the Will of God. An understanding is needed here: the Will of God is not in opposition to the Will of the individual. Because of the separation that has been made in the consciousness of so many, the Will has been excluded for a long time from participating in the evolvement of the Spirit. A definite lag exists on Earth between the evolvement of the Spirit and the evolvement of the individual Will. It is now time for each Spirit to recognize, accept and evolve this other part of itself. Each Spirit is part of the Divine Consciousness and each individual Will is part of the Divine Will. Each person must take responsibility for his complete being, and not for only a part of it. The Spirit must accept its own Will and evolve it in a loving way rather than a punitive, non-accepting or unloving one. The Individual Will expresses itself as feelings. When the Individual Will feels the loving acceptance of its own Spirit, it cannot fail to come into alignment with the Divine Will. God has given each individual part of His Consciousness with which to be aware of himself, and part of His Will with which to experience himself. Everyone now wishing to remain on Earth must accept the whole being and discontinue the denial of the part of the self that experiences the Earth. and here's some of the commentary: The Right Use Of Will (RUOW) Material is a series of 8 channeled books received by Ceanne DeRohan over the last 16 years. In these books, God describes how creation came into being and the true nature of the Original Cause, which was how the Mother was denied her expression by God and literally smacked out of heaven. It was this primal event which has created all of the problems we see reflected in our world and in our relationships today. These books are very intense and difficult to process. The cosmology they present can be very challenging. They were designed to trigger our deepest fears, terror, and rage so that emotional clearing can occur and bring us into a state of healing. God and Mother have plans to move together now and we must be ready, by vibrating within a place that does not contain any guilt or denials of any kind. He suggests that this is done by having loving intent to heal by having the Spirit (Father) meet the Will (Mother) in the Heart, centered in the Body. We highly recommend these books to anyone who has already been consciously working on their emotional body. I also recommend them to Christians and/or those with Christ Consciousness. And finally, I recommend them to anyone who is aware and looking for solutions to this world's problems. This is entirely serious, insidious poison. Now that I know you're into this, Jon, I'd start praying for you if I weren't an atheist. This stuff is terrible. Jon, I said before that you should read some Dawkins. I think you most definitely should do just that and get some grounding in science with respect to how we really got here (hint: it's got nothing to do with elves, fairies or any of the other fantasy figures that crazy book pitches as real beings -- or as real as anything else is in that murky, new age world of 'relative truth' this channelled garbage festers in like a dirty bug). I think you also need to read a very important book for you and that's The Guru Papers by Kramer and Alstad. I'm not kidding, Jon. You're drowning in the worst new age morass I know of if you're reading that stuff and buying it on its patently manipulative terms. Oh boy! The Right Use of Will www.dap.nl/DeRohan.html

Subject: Quotes from The Guru Papers From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 21:18:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, Here is a review of this fascinating book: The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad Reviewed by Kathy Glass in Synapse Don't let the title's timely but coincidental connection to recent events in Waco, Texas, fool you into seeking more sensationalism or avoiding this book for fear of it. The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power goes far beyond an analysis of power structures in religious cults to decode authoritarianism in its more subtle and pervasive formsin values, ideologies, religions, love, and daily life, In fact, this is where it all gets interestingand very close to home. The Guru Papers is a powerful and important book with the potential to shift readers minds in a deep way. Authors Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad are onto something bigpossibly even the root of human error. This new collection of essays take the guru/disciple relationship as a starting point for unraveling the thread of authoritarianism as it is interwoven and disguised in most arenas of human interaction. Though extreme, the guru model illustrates well the workings of authoritarian power that occur less overtly in many other relationships and contexts. Insightful analytical excursions into religion and morality, dominance and surrender, fundamentalism, satanism, addiction, love, and spirituality ferret out the authoritarianism inherent in much of our cultural (and hence psychological) framework. In its wide-ranging discussion of historical and contemporary social structures, The Guru Papers shows that although authoritarianism may have once held evolving social structures together, it has become a key factor in social disintegration today. This may be easier to observe in political systems and other institutions (particularly those blatant violators of human rights) than in the worldviews, values, and conditioned responses we each live so closely with. Kramer and Alstad are relentless in their mission to 'unmask' authoritarianism in all its various guises. The book's tone is urgent, because they feel the future of humanity is in question. There is no more time to bounce from one presumed authority to another looking for answers. On every levelpersonal, familial, institutionalthere is breakdown and uncertainty as to the validity of old ways of thought and action. The authors attempt to show that on all these levels of social malfunction, authoritarianism supports and is at the core of the old way, and it impedes the emergence of new ways to handle problems from within the old framework that created them, and this includes our growing ecological crisis. The good news is that the human species isn't inherently inept or doomed to extinction. Instead, our problems are the product of authoritarian conditioning at the foundation of our morality and thus our civilization. When we see this clearly in ourselves, we can be liberated from it. This process of seeing and moving away from the influence of authoritarian power structures may hold the key to our survival. Broad critiques of modern human society (its problems and moral underpinnings) are commonplace. We all know religious issues are unresolved and that justice does not prevail. So many problems can be traced to abuse of authority. The Guru Papers differs from the usual dismal and impersonal litany not only in its basic optimism that we can overcome our collective troubles, but in its innovative examination of the 'inner authoritarian'the mechanism of control within each of us that enforces morals and guides behavior. The inner authoritarian is programmed by external authorities and operates from the beliefs and ideologies we are exposed to. Whenever we fail to question what we've adopted from these authorities, we allow others to control us. And here are some quotes culled from it for the ex-premie site: Quotes from The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad 'One of the longest experiments in history, the approximately 3,000-year-old Eastern ideology of Oneness, was first developed in the Upanishads. . . . The failure of its renunciate morality to diminish self-centeredness is a powerful statement that something is amiss. . . . It is our contention that this morality has failed not because there is something wrong with people, but because the framework constructs ideals that are impossible to achieve, thus setting people up for failure and self-mistrust.' 'The ideal of enlightenment at first blush seems completely innocent of human corruption because it is defined as being totally selfless. Yet it is this sacrosanct concept of perfection that allows authoritarianism to manifest, and indeed flourish.' 'Monotheism with one God on top is obviously authoritarian. The authoritarianism embedded within the Eastern ideology of Oneness is less obvious. . . . Whereas monotheism makes the revealed Word of God sacred, Eastern religions make presumed enlightened beings sacred. Thus the concept of enlightenment brings authoritarianism at the personal, charismatic level (gurus, masters, avatars, and buddhas).' 'Accepting selflessness as the highest value is where the insidious authoritarianism of the old order unwittingly seeps into many modern paradigms that attempt to be new.' 'Are gurus...filling deep needs and thus inadvertently pointing to trouble spots and lacks in the fabric of our culture, as well as revealing the depth of our conditioning to want authorities and mistrust ourselves?'(p.32) '...Behind much of the appeal of such authorities lies the primitive and essentially childish hope of an external and magical answer to the existential problems and fears around living and dying. The guru/disciple relationship is a formal structure of extreme authoritarianism. It thus offers a quintessential exemplar of control and surrender, displaying mechanical processes that reinforce predilections toward submission.'(p.32) 'THE GURU PAPERS critiques the guru/disciple liaison because it is a clear-cut example of the old, no longer appropriate paradigm of spiritual authority. It is not that we doubt that some who are considered gurus have deeper insights than their followers. Yet even with the best intentions, assuming the role of spiritual authority for others sets in motion a system of interaction that is mechanical, predictable, and contains the essence of corruption. Another purpose of this book is to show that corruption is not simply the failure or weakness of a specific individual, but is structurally built into any authoritarian relationship, and less obviously, any renunciate morality.'(p.35) '...Asserting that one human being fundamentally knows what’s best for another is authoritarian. If this is accepted, it sets up a chain of inevitable relational patterns that are detrimental to all players of the game.'(p.36) 'Now through media images, leaders of all sorts can charismatically control far more people than ever before, without having any personal connection with them'(p.43) 'The need to appear right when presenting oneself as a spiritual knower is greater than in any other arena because knowing is what makes one essentially different from seekers. Admitting any fallibility not only removes one from that exalted place, but makes it difficult to compete with other presumed knowers who do claim infallibility.'(p.47) 'The ostensible reason for fostering surrender is it detaches followers from certain deep conditionings presumed to be obstacles on the spiritual path. But it does not detach them from one of the most insidious and powerful conditionings of all- the predilection to look for an authority that one can trust more than oneself.' (p.50) 'A number of gurus have made statements to the effect that disobedience or disrespect of the guru has...severe negative spiritual consequences...One even said that such disrespect can bring thousands of lifetimes of pain and suffering. Whatever else is involved, it should be obvious that fear and threats are being used here for control.'(p.67) 'When magic lies at the base of authority, no matter how elevated the people appear, they are engaged in perhaps the oldest ploy of authoritarian mind control.' (p.68) 'To maintain mental control it is necessary to undermine self-trust. This is insidiously done by removing the ways people can build trust in themselves.'(p.73) 'Cults need a continuous stream of recruits and potential converts to reinforce the belief that they’re 'where it’s at'- the vanguard of spirituality on the planet.'(78) 'What most proselytizing groups face is how to sell their beliefs without appearing to do so. Recruiting is therefore always done in the name of helping or doing some kind of good....to care about others is to get them to join.'(p.79) 'When dealing with others who are less certain, simply having certainty gives dominance.' (p.80) 'When the popularity and power of the group plateaus and then begins to wane...the apocalyptic phase enters and the party is over...'(p.80) 'The attitude of benign superiority toward outsiders characteristic of the expansionistic phase dramatically shifts when the group turns apocalyptic. It is the outsiders who will receive the brunt of whatever cataclysm the guru claims will come.' (p.81) 'The glorification of work always involves improving the leader’s property (the commune or ashram), increasing his wealth, or some grandiose project.'(p.82) 'The potential for violence and abuse in an authoritarian cult is always there, not only because whatever the leader says goes, but also because outsiders are made into 'the Other,' which has always been used to justify violence.'(p.83) 'Both gurus and disciples use hierarchical relationships for power. Everyone on the hierarchy gets their feelings of power and specialness from where they are positioned.' (p.85) 'authoritarian hierarchies are propped up with an authoritarian worldview and morality. No matter their stated rationale, their main purpose always becomes self-perpetuation, which inevitably corrupts them.' (p.86) '...proselytizing and advertising are cut from the same cloth. The enormous attention given to appearance leads to a concern for packaging rather than what’s inside the package.'(p.88) 'Gurus do give special attention to those with wealth or power; having celebrities in one’s entourage increases coffers, influence, and membership.'(p.89) 'In the realm of sexuality, the two prevalent ways control is exerted are through promulgating either celibacy or promiscuity...both serve the same function: they minimize the possibilities of people bonding deeply with each other, thus reducing factors that compete with the guru for attention.' (p.92) 'Celibacy does allow one to maintain a certain kind of control of one’s energy and emotions. It also conforms with images of purity. Therefore, it is far easier for a guru to gain and maintain power if he is celibate - or pretends to be.'(p.92) 'Gurus who preach celibacy while secretly engaging in sexuality present sex as an esoteric initiation ritual or advanced spiritual exercise that must be kept hidden... But it is the lie, not the sex, that’s the real issue. The lie indicates the guru’s entire persona is a lie, that his image as selfless and beyond ego is a core deception.'(p.95) 'The standards of purity necessary for the role of guru must bring unconscious repression and filtering mechanisms that ensure deceit and hypocrisy around self-interest,'(p.106) Being a guru '...creates a feedback-proof system where the guru always needs to be right and cannot be shown to be wrong - which is where learning comes from.' (p.107) 'Why would even the most realized of beings want people to become reliant on his wisdom instead of their own?' (p.108) 'The myriad scandals around sex, money, and power that have tainted so many gurus are not surprising, given the structural corruptibility of the role.' (p.113) The...'guru role makes it extremely difficult to escape the traps of power - the ultimate trap being in the end, gurus lose their humanity.' (p.114) '...The ex-disciple’s world has turned on its head: What the guru and group presented as unconditional love was conditional upon accepting their authority; the egoless guru was found to be on a manipulative, even crass, power trip. For people who surrendered totally to a guru and thus experienced passion more deeply than ever before, seeing 'The emperor wears no clothes' can be devastating. So it’s no wonder people have tremendous resistance to anything that causes them to doubt the veracity of the authority.' (p.152) 'The most extreme form of mental control occurs when the authority is trusted completely and becomes the center of one’s identity. Sadly, society and parents insidiously put out messages from childhood on that others know what’s best. Many people are deeply conditioned to expect and hope some outside agency, power or person will solve their problems. Letting go of expectations or even wanting this is difficult, partially because what one is left with is oneself and all of one’s limitations.'(p.154) 'True healing can be accelerated by understanding the deep mechanisms of what happened, and of authoritarian dynamics in general. Then people can be more confident they won’t be taken in again.'(p.154) ********** The book is all about what the authors call 'authoritarian thought structures', institutions or teachings that undermine a person's ability to think for themself, to use their critical faculties properly. Although it doesn't deal with either Maharaji or TRUOW specifically, it does address issues relevant to both. There's some excellent analysis of The Course in Miracles which parallels TRUOW in many respects. Save yourself, Jon. Quotes from The Guru Papers www.ex-premie.org/papers/gp_quotes.htm

Subject: Dear Jon.... From: Pat W To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:00:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I want to also say that for some expremies who were caught up in a religious or unsatisfying sort of relationship with Maharaji and Knowledge, I can understand your needing to move back from the whole thing to get some perspective. I can understand that your need is to experience life without any of your prior mindset. But to throw out the baby with the bathwater and deny that you had any real experiences with Maharaji at all seems to me to be a form of denial. Perhaps it is very difficult to reconcile with some of your negative feelings. Perhaps it makes sense to resent and rage at someone whom you were dependent on in an unhealthy way. I did a lot of that with my parents and maybe it helped me individuate. But there came a time when I needed to see that much of my blame for them was coming from my own insecurity and fears of the responsibility and the freedom of being an independent actor in life. ......thanks for your thoughtful contributions. I definitely fall into the category of person that you describe as 'needing to move back from the whole thing to get some perspective' and also am someone who am quite ready to admit that I find my experiences with Maharaji 'very difficult to reconcile' with some of my 'negative feelings' and yes it has made some sense to 'resent and rage at someone' on whom I was 'dependent on in an unhealthy way'. That was well put. I wanted to point out that I feel that Maharaji really did foster and encourage us (maybe I should stick to 'me') to be dependent on him in an unhealthy way. Your implication seems to be that it was us who aspired to an unhealthy dependence for various reasons. Coming from a Christian sort of upbringing I certainly had my fair share of pre-conceptions about the Lord and devotion etc. but in my opinion, at that time Maharaji, if anything, encouraged us to make comparisons with him and past Avatars. He may have said he wasn't God or Jesus sometimes, but he clearly did NOT mind people seeing him this way in the least. My impression has been that he encouraged it, but differentiated himself slightly from past Masters usually by implying that he was the Greatest Manifestation yet. The way I recall things is that he played upon our pre-existing religiosity and sincerity to make us feel very privileged and awestruck that we now had this singular opportunity to be a disciple of the greatest living Perfect Master and he would constantly remind us that we should not 'blow it' and all this kind of talk (which is basically intimidating controlling language). Also the system which he set up was geared by him to make us surrender to him in every possible way. Perhaps it makes sense to resent and rage at someone whom you were dependent on in an unhealthy way. I did a lot of that with my parents and maybe it helped me individuate. But there came a time when I needed to see that much of my blame for them was coming from my own insecurity and fears of the responsibility and the freedom of being an independent actor in life. Now I wanted also to mention that I was fortunate enough to have had a very secure, loving, stable upbringing and whilst I may have had many teenage insecurities about plunging into a world where I would be responsible and free, I don't believe I was trying to avoid 'the World ' or to seek a cosy alternate loving family. Maharaji indeed seemed to offer an alternative life of devotion where one's only responsibility would be to follow his Agya and where one's personal choices and freedoms would be effectively surrendered. But to me that was not an altogether appealing prospect - in fact it was quite daunting and hard to accept- but there was no real way around it. If you listened to what Maharaji was saying closely at the time, he was quite clear in his instruction that if you were sincere (which I was in spades) then you should do everything to separate from the world and dedicate your life to him in the ashram. Even if you were not single and free - you were encouraged to become so for the very reason of dedicating your life. So I did so somewhat reluctantly but in good faith. I say reluctantly - maybe 'sadly' is a better word because I felt I was missing out on many things I had been looking forward to doing -like playing music, dating girls, having kids etc. Basically I put my life and other aspirations on hold - and moreover I understood that this was to be a life-long sacrifice. Which of course it turned out not to be. Before I received Knowledge, at 17 I was actually very excited by the prospect of living life to the full and although I gained some benefit from practicing Knowledge (at the time when I was yearning for a deeper experience on which to build my life and make life decisions) it was a considerable sacrifice (at least that 's what it felt like) to give up the things I had wanted to do, to live according to the standards and rules that M demanded. Now, if my experience in the ashram had resulted in me feeling and becoming a more rounded, fulfilled, happier person then maybe I would now judge that the sacrifice had been worthwhile. Bit it didn't! Unfortunately, I found the ashram experience boring and frustrating and full of infectious dysfunction and pettiness. There were so many positive, interesting things I wanted to do and was frustrated about, but I confess, I really believed that Maharaji wanted me to be there and I had faith that the outcome would be worthwhile - that's why I stayed as long as I did. Notwithstanding that M really bullied us about even questioning being there. It was a very high pressure environment in the late seventies. So I can't escape the fact that whilst Knowledge initially enriched my life, the effect of dedicating it to Maharaji had the opposite effect. To conclude, it is simply not possible to trust someone who has put you through all this, and yet shows no concern afterwards. It is impossible reconcile one's former devotional love for someone who apparently receives criticism, even if it given with sincerity (as it is in my case) with scorn or simply will not address the problems people have had in the process of giving so much of their lives to him.

Subject: Re: my experiences and reflections From: AV To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 08:58:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..... in the heyday of what ex-premies have negatively labeled as “guru-worship”. you see you just gave the game away...IT WAS guru worship and we knew it!..that was the path my friend...why call it 'NEGATIVE LABELLING'?? It is what it is. you also say: 'But to throw out the baby with the bathwater and deny that you had any real experiences with Maharaji at all seems to me to be a form of denial.' No to deny IS denial (duh!) but people who had experiences are'nt denying them, they are trying to reconcile them with M's behaviour as an individual, clearly this has led to anxiety and trauma for many of us....we believed that he was who he implied he was , and the role he perpetuated. Why is this so often passed over by people who post here?? If you give up the part of your rational mind to the belief that M is THE living embodiment of 'the almighty on earth', then find out he is , well.....read the stories, then you are faced with the task of rebuilding your sentient mind, heart and soul piece by piece; for me, it may take the rest of my life, who knows. you refer to M as 'someone whom you were dependent on in an unhealthy way.'.....so how would you propose a healthy way to be with someone who DEMANDS your dependance?...surrender the reins of your life to me, and I will give you peace? how would you recommend someone should respond?, if you believe, and are exhorted to believe that M is Lord, what other possible interpretation could you place on such a statement, 'agya' even, than to completely throw yourself on his mercy? you say; 'there have been times when I raged at Maharaji for making life sound so simple and joyful and holding out the notion that happiness is attainable when my life was so opposite that. ' well, that's because I haven't ever met a person for whom life ever was that ideal state, certainly not close to the camp of the Lord...where all was stress and fear of blowing it, not just bliss and redemption. Tho' I had some sweet times also, many did. . We have all had our epiphanies, and I'm sure those of us that have had those visions thru' K value them, but they are a colour on the palette of life, and what we paint in our time here is not constrained, and cannot be limited to the realms of the divine alone. There is pain, physical and mental; anguish, grief, passion, playfulness, rage, all elements of the human condition. Many of us saw K as a way to ascend the negative aspects of life, and merge into a feeling of sublime unity, but we need support and real care and understanding. And if a baby was thrown out with the bathwater, it was the baby of our abilty to accept life in the raw, as it is, day by day. Even now, confronted with difficulties I try to run and hide, go back to my comfort zone, because I've been made so afraid of the big bad world it's taking me every shred of energy to try and trust again, to NOT see this world as a meaningless abode of ignorant people who 'DON'T KNOW', to not feel a pain and unreconcilable longing for a state of being which is pure and loving, and without which life is unbearable. with love.

Subject: Jon, one major point From: Will To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 07:46:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, There is a lot to respond to in your post. But at this moment, I would like to make just one major point that I hope you will ponder. First, thanks for using your name. Why can't the other premies who post here do that? But to start my main point, I strongly urge you to further investigate what is known about all the gurus and cults present in the world today and in the last century. You can easily do this on the web, there are several good sites about gurus and cults. You will get a more complete picture about cults and how the Rawat cult fits into the picture. Being a conduit for wisdom and love-feelings is one thing, and we can all do that honorably with each other to some extent, but the dynamics of cultism is something else entirely, and we must distinquish between the two. Believe me, everything you say about Maharaji has been said countless times by the devotees of every master out there, and there are literally hundreds. Maharaji is guilty of every single cult error there is, and not just in the 70's, but now. I see that you know about Rajneesh and others, but you favor your own guru too easily. I think you deal with the issue of the Master as God in the only logical way that a student of Rawat can. But it is obvious to me, from what you say, that you have accepted a certain major falsehood. You sometimes say 'Maharaji and Knowledge' as if that were a singularity. And in your experience and in your habitual thinking, the two are tied up together. But this is the central lie of the guru and cultism. Once the teacher can get the student to make this connection, all of cultism then follows. A true teacher would NEVER set himself up as the source of divine grace for his students. And what is the harm? The harm is that we should look toward the true source with gratitude and humility, but it is a giant mistake to look toward another mortal human being with that gratitude and humility. Any human being who sets himself up in this manner is a fake, a usurper of the power of life. He then set himself up to be served as only the Truth should be served. At the Knowledge session we are instructed to see the teacher as the giver of our own inner experience. A greater blasphemy than this does not exist. Yet, people do fall for this hook. All of Rawat's students give him the credit for their inner experience. The more that a student gives Rawat the credit for what lies intrinsically within him, the more devoted to the teacher he becomes. Eventually, every good thing that the student feels, the teacher gets the credit for that, and every bad thing that the student feels, he gives himself the credit for that. Thus, the more the student follows the guru, the less self power he gathers. You, yourself, have expressed this, although in a rather mild way. Again, Jon, I can only urge you to investigate and to ponder further. From that one lie, the guru spells failure for his students and his own mission. Take a good look at Prem Rawat's public image, and what kind of prospects he has in this world. And then take a good look at how you and other premies are pursuing life's truths. You will see a great narrowness in your efforts, a narrowness that the universe does not share with you. There is a grand separation in you as long as you connect yourself to another particular human being as your Master/ teacher, and to his particular mission in the world. By attempting to connect with the human teacher, you are inadequately connecting with YOUR OWN POWER. You will never fully self-realize. And that was idea, remember? Rawat and his students will never be anything other than a very minor cult, scorned by society for all the right reasons: the fundamental lie of the guru and all the cultism that follows that lie. You say that you travel to a city far away that you don't like because the good feelings from Rawat are worth it. And you relate to him only as a "helper" along the way, not your Master. Well, that is certainly not what he says about himself. And this is putting him on the level of a drug or any other stimulus from outside of you. One thing that every ex learns is that the good feelings we feel around Rawat are available to us even when we divorce ourselves from him. I don't know if you will believe me, but I still feel that good feeling of Holy Name even when I'm shouting "Kick the guru to the curb!" It was hard for me to make the break, just a few years ago, but I don't miss him at all. All the good stuff is still with me, as it always was. We exes don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, if you define the baby as being our own heart, but it you define the baby as those four techniques, then go ahead and drown that baby and you can still connect. That's what we want, right? We want the connection. Remember, never say 'Maharaji and Knowledge' as a singularity. Never say 'Rawat and Self-Knowledge' as a singularity. Thanks for posting.

Subject: p.s. to Jon From: Will To: Will Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:33:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, I responded to your post here before I read your post below in which you give a defense of Rawat's objectionable activities and you recommend a series of books that describe the imbalances that occurred in the early part of creation. Having read that post I now realize that you are in a whole different head-space than I thought, specifically, you are a nut! BTW, approximately how many people were in attendance at the Pasadena program?

Subject: Re: p.s. to Jon From: jon diener To: Will Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 21:01:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Afte reading your first post, I thought you a rather intelligent sensitive individual. Having read this post I now realize that you are in a whole different head space than I thought. Specifically, you are a closed minded intellectual dwarf. Do you really believe God has always been perfect and it is just we humans that are so dysfunctional as to rape, kill and rob each other on mass thoughout history. Open your mind fellow. Or is it you only believe that God is male ? Or perhaps, you don;t believe God existed in any way we can know about or if He/she does exist we couldn't know about or understand God's existence prior to the existence of humans. If so, you are quite limited in what you are willing to consider or think about. However, I do realize these ideas are soemwhat difficult to work with. On the other hand, I did laugh when I read your post calling me a nut. I ought to tell you about God and the Divine MOther's early attempts at a sexual relationship. Then you'll really know have some thing to call me nuts over. I think there were about 2500 to 3,000 in Pasadena, but thats just a guess.

Subject: Re: p.s. to Jon From: Will To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 06:55:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No hard feelings! Thanks for answering my question about the attendance at Pasadena.

Subject: God and the Divine Mum From: Livia To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 03:44:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your ideas about God and the divine mother - um, how did you find this out? I mean, did God tell you what happened or did somebody else? If so, who? And what are that person's credentials? Come on, you've got to be more specific if you really don't want to be considered a nut. Did you read it somewhere? Who wrote the book? Maybe the person who wrote it was totally nuts!!! If you want to be taken seriously here, um, I think it's probably not a great idea to throw ideas around like God and the divine mother having sex at the beginning of creation, without being able to explain that this is more than a quaint and frankly mad idea you've picked up from somewhere. Well? Livia

Subject: Re: God and the Divine Mum From: jon diener To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 08:09:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, You are absolutely right. However, revealing the source of my information may only make matters worse. Nevertheless, there are a series of books written by a channel who currently lives in Santa Fe, N.M. by the name of Ceanne DeRohann. These books are quite unabashedly channelled from God Himself who talks about His early experiences with sex and many, many other things. I wouldn't have ever believed it myself except for the fact that after reading the first book and those thereafter, they rang so true and contained such amazing information, that frankly I think the Big Guy in the Sky did channell them.

Subject: Re: God and the Divine Mum From: Thorin To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 08:38:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon Ahhh now things are neatly falling into place! Yes it sure is fun creating nice little stories and how we all fit into them (hey look at my name - straight out of middle earth) but do you really really believe in the Land of Pan/Pangea? No really!? Honestly? :) If it is books that inspire you please read The Blind Watchmaker, or if you have already, please re-read. warmly, Thorin

Subject: The Blind Watchmaker? Exactmente! From: Jim To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 15:22:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, You could do no better than to read some Dawkins. Honestly.

Subject: Could you be more specific, Will? From: PatC To: Will Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 12:33:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said to Jon: ''Having read that post (his apologism for Rawat's immorality) I now realize that you are in a whole different head-space than I thought, specifically, you are a nut!'' Could you specify what kind of nut please? :C) I think that's the first time I've ever seen you lose your patience with someone. You're so trusting. Jon's post reeked of insincerity from the start so his spin doctor post for Rawat's immorality came as no surprise.

Subject: Re: Could you be more specific, Will? From: Will To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 12:41:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Pat, Well, the nuttiest part was about God and the Divine Mother being all fucked up and confused when they started the creation, and how even today's Perfect Masters still have some unbalances as a result. With premies like that, who needs ex-premies?

Subject: I can't tell anymore, Will From: PatC To: Will Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 13:30:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Since Roupell started playing games here, I can't tell if premie apologists are joking, believe their own crap or are simply out to lunch.

Subject: the Candy Bar of Bliss From: Gregg To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 06:49:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for taking the time to type up yr thoughts, Jon. As you know, ex-premie stances on mystical experiences are all over the map. Some see them as delusional synaptical dysfunctional trips, others (inc. myself) still actively pursue them. As one whose dalliances with the spirit dated to a decade before premiedom and two decades after leaving, I do have opinions about how Prem Pal fits into all this. First of all, the 'realness' of experience. Yes, but it would be a mistake to draw all kinds af assumptions from this perception. The relationships between perception, thought, emotion, reality and Reality are nuanced and infinitely complex. Simplicity reigns, ultimately, but not on a human level. I had experiences of this sort too, but as JHB points out, setting is important. What you believe is important. And it is important to look at the whole truth about Maharaji. Who is he on an emotional level, on the level of social justice, all these things that are part of who we are, who we are striving to be as members of the human community? Lastly, many of us who post here are not angry. We'd just like PWK's and aspirants to be honest skeptics as well as devoted followers. Blindness is never a good thing. Hey, I have a guru, and I'm always asking myself if he's a fraud or not, cuz I never asked those questions with M, and that wasn't good. Turns out doubt doesn't diminish real experience. 'Never leave room for doubt in your mind.' !!!!

Subject: Re: my experiences and reflections From: Sir Dave To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 04:44:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, you only have to look at the Japanese fans of English football team Captain, David Beckham, to see that they too are experiencing joy and unalloyed bliss, while watching the World Cup in Japan. You believed Maharaji was the Lord, so you had an experience of same. This happened to me too for a while. If you believed Dame Edna Everage was God incarnate, you'd no doubt experience something powerful in her (his) presence too Maharaji did finally own up when he said that darshan worked because we believed it would.

Subject: jon, don't forget-- From: janet To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 02:15:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you are speaking to us. we were all there. we did it too. we had experiences. we had feelings.we faced all the same kinds of struggles that you did, and worked thru them as you did, in our own ways. you need not address us as if you are apart from us, or as if we never 'really' had the experience. of Knowledge. we did. that's why we're here. myself, i grew tired and more and more offended over time as I saw and heard and felt maharaji and his surrounding crowd display anything but what should have been the likely outcome of what knowledge promised, was sold to us as being based on. I felt myself getting pushed farther and farther to the edges, getting more and more alienated at each new encounter, with the way the organization morphed over time. I date back to 1973 with this, and i hung on by the skin of my teeth until 2000, whenfinally I realized that it wasn't me who had left him, --- it was more truthful to say that i realized that he had finally left me! and yes, i went thru a period of confusion and hurt and anger as I then had time to look at all the things I had put beleif into for those 27 years, but I gave myself space to let what was worth keeping afterward, emerge. some days i yearn to go all the way back to how i used my mind before I met premies and MJ. I don;t think i can. and strangely enough, sometimes when i give up yearning, the very best of what i remember happening in the best times with premies, suddenly comes out, and I'm feeling it and watching it with people who have never had Knowledge or known the premie world. but all the good I can remember, and all the good I have ever heard anyone describe experiencing--and i now add yours to my collection of such accounts-- none of it mitigates or excuses the bad, that has been happening and still is, to this hour, that we know for unarguable fact comes form him. it does nothing to mitigate what jagdeo did to kids and where that still stands today. it does nothing to address the secrecy, the hypocrisy, the harm. it does nothing to make up for that bicyclist that died under the wheels of his car in india, from which he ran and dishonestly left another to take the rap. it does nothing to mitigate his alcoholism, drug use, unfaithfulness, usery of women he bedded and then wouldn't see afterward. it doesn't come close to addressing the way he has fed off the energy, labor, money and time of others and then put himself up as if he did something to deserve having it from them. the list goes on, Jon. i basically give someone a lot of rope, and then go along to see what they do with it. the good ones use the rope to do something constructive that benefits one and all admirably. the worthless ones always hang themselves with it. the evil ones use it to try and hang someone else. but it's a magic rope. even when they try to, it still ends up hanging them, becuase it knows who it's supposed to hang if they attempt to do that. truth will out, Jon. strength of character will prove itself. and pleas egive this a thought or two' yeah, wouldnt you feel like he does, if you were born into the life he was? never have to get a job, never have to obey thelaw, never know how the 'little people' live, be worshipped from birth and have absolutely no one deny you, refuse you, punishyou, make you tow the line, never know what normal, ordinary life is?? I think a real test would be to strip him of all his comforts and luzuries and set him in a place where he could not reach any of the things he is accustomed to, and then see if he has what you sensed as that joie de vivre. maybe his plane could go down in rough seas and he'd survive the wreck on an island, like in survivor. maybe he could go to prison and serve an ordinary sentence among the general population inmates. maybe he could come down with something terminal and awful with a long prognosis until death--something like paralysis, or cancer, or parkinsons--something slow and progressive that would rob him of all his faculties inexorably but not kill him yet. and then both we and he could see what kind of stuff his real mettle is made of. take away all the booze, the money, the nicotine, the THC, the sex, the fame, the power, the panache, put him completely cut off from all that he lives with and always has. and then see what becomes of him..

Subject: Could you send me a copy of the tape? From: JHB To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 01:58:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, I am the webmaster of www.ex-premie-org and in spite of what many say, I do try to present a balanced view on the website. If you could send me a copy of the tape where Maharaji talks about the ashrams, I will make sure the passage you quote is printed alongside Maharaji's other pronouncements about the ashrams. Regarding the rest of your post. Your position hinges on whether the profound experiences you had were somehow initiated by Maharaji. No one here doubts that such profound experiences happen. Most here, including myself, have had them. There have been many discussions about how such experiences appear to be inspired by Maharaji, and for me the mosat likely explanation is simply our readiness to have the experiences, and the situation we found ourselves in where he was the focus of our attention. I think the killing argument against any uniquely divine power in Maharaji is that followers of other gurus report exactly the same experiences as you, and use exactly the same argument to supprot the divinity of their guru. It's an interesting phenomenon, worthy of further study, but not, in my opinion a reason to dedicate your life to another human being. And then lets look at the human being. From many independent reports he is a heavy drinker of alcohol. He regularly smoked cannabis. He has a mistress, as well as having numerous affairs. Even if he had some divine power, would you want to trust him? John.

Subject: Re: my experiences and reflections From: hamzen To: jon diener Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 23:18:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well having taking a similar line to yourself, although having had less 'cosmic' experiences around gm, and been down the grateful dead and acid route too, and picking up on the vibe of your post have some empathy with where you are coming from, but think you are naive about consciousness. I have met any number of people over the years who had different gurus from meher baba to sai baba to rajneesh who have had similar intense experiences around their guru too. Now how can that be if their heads aren't involved in those expereinces, and that leaves out followers of the nigerian guru maharaji who nicked gm's package wholesale and has followers experiencing exactly what you are talkin about. Did you also know about the spot in the brain that when a magnet is placed over it, produces direct experiences of god? Check out persinger for startas on google. There is no other way to put it, but you are being very naive. It's the problem with our generation, we were so naive about consciousness we assume that experiences are what they appear to be. And anyway what's so wrong in admitting that set and setting can have a profound effect on us? hamzen who still has a wicked time meditating on the k techniques, which by the way are bog standard raj yoga techniques and not at all unique to gm, who still gets that intense light ting around people and that deep satsang vibe too, even though I think gm is a pile of shit.

Subject: Re: my experiences and reflections From: jon diener To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 01:47:22 (PDT) Email Address: jdiener@gilanet.com Message: You were into the Dead? Its funny ... I was living on Wall St. outside of Boulder when Maharaji came there. So there were hundreds of hippies wandering around and hundreds of cars on this remote dirt road where me and maybe half a dozen other people lived when I came home one night.. so I went over there the next day and there was a vibe that was so high and good that my first thought was the Grateful Dead are here. It actually took me a few minutes to figure out that that wasn't the case. But the fact is I have met devotees of Rajneesh and I never got a feeling they had anywhere near the kind of experiences I had with Maharaji. I also don't preclude the possibility that another guy is alive who can turn on people like Maharaji does. But noone I have read about or heard about from people tells me so. Although I think Ram Dass's Maharaji may have been something quite special. And I think Werner Erhard openned a lot of doors for some people at a certain level. I think youre right that higher conciousness is not the sole property of Maharaji. I'll take inspiration and help on my path however and wherever I can get it. Maharaji has been the most reliable and best source I have found. I shouldn't need external help you may say. Well I haven't come to that understanding yet. It seems like I do need something more than what I can muster. At least for me, I am trying to break free very some very deeply ingrained and painful patterns. If it appears someone can aid me in this, yeah. Besides I enjoy Maharaji. As unpleasant as it is to drive 12 hours to L.A. (and be in L.A.) to see him, I enjoy the feelings I get enough to warrant it on that basis alone. Maybe being naive is really just not being cynical.

Subject: Re: my experiences and reflections From: Sumray To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 03:32:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As a former devotee of Rajneesh, I can say the same thing. When I used to meet premies, I thought their version of bliss was just a copy of Osho's bliss. Anyway as far as I can remember we were proud to have bought him 17 Rolls Royce's, you premies always lied. It's all guru-related ego Jon. The best freedom is leaving any of these cults. Be master of your own experience, no need for God or gods or power houses(ha ha that's a good one, both Maharaji and Osho used to use that one). Don't mean to take the piss, but I just can't help it. S.

Subject: Go on! Take the piss, Sumray From: PatC To: Sumray Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:33:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I always thought you guys were so much more open, happy and self-confident than us poor downtrodden premies but I was convinced that you were deluded. :C) Thnaks for your input.

Subject: Hey! another ex-sannyasin? :) From: cq To: Sumray Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:22:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Was Sumray your sannyas name? thinks ... how to ask if it was Swami Sumray or Ma Sumray? OK, here goes: Erm, ... excuse me for asking, but are you a man or a woman? Whaddya mean 'Yes'? ;) Bests Chris (formerly Swami Prem Tusheer)

Subject: Swami Prem Tusheer? From: PatC To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:34:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is Tusheer the Hindi for tuchus?

Subject: I think Bhagwan just wanted me to sit down From: cq To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 05:49:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: as in ... 'Oi, you - tush 'ere'. PS what's 'tuchus' mean?

Subject: Tuchas is Yiddish for tush [nt] From: PatC To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 11:48:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Naive? Just an excuse From: Jethro To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 02:14:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Maybe being naive is really just not being cynical.' No it's just an excuse for not seeing what is happening. No doubt you are one of those people who walk on by when someone is being raped or beaten up in the street. You are following someone who allows his closest to rape and misuse their positions. Anyway like HE once said, 'those who are not for me are against me' (I think he lifted that from Jesus Christ).

Subject: Couldn't agree more, Except From: Tim G, To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 01:22:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't do the meditation thing anymore. I HAVE thrown out the baby with the bathwater....and find that life is just as magical and ten times more spontaneous. I see that nailing down the potential of life to a few measly techniques, a Master (so-called) or a set of beliefs insults the magnificence of the universe. There is also the whole issue of m's lack of personal integrity and his supreme arrogance and lack of empathy with those close to hi m that makes me wonder has he ever experienced this bliss he whines on about. I'm sorry, but to me he is clearly a businessman in the spiritual market. With a big grin. Tim P.S. Hi Hamzen. Any news on the remix? I've got an engineer/musician from Brixton staying who is teaching me Logic Audio.....back to school. Brilliant fun and quite head-wrecking

Subject: Leaders Article From: Just wondering To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 17:12:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have seen the article on TPRF site, it seems to be cut off mid sentence. Has the remainder of the interview been posted here? or EPO? or elsewhere?

Subject: Re: Leaders Article From: Richard To: Just wondering Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 08:31:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here are the other 4 pages of the Leaders 'interview' forwarded to me by a FOF (friend of forum). They are PDF files viewable with Acrobat Reader available free from Adobe's website. Each page is about 1mb. Warning, do not operate machinery after reading as it will make you drowsy. http://64.45.46.159/lead/L168.pdf http://64.45.46.159/lead/L169.pdf http://64.45.46.159/lead/L170.pdf http://64.45.46.159/lead/L171.pdf

Subject: Mitch and Will Revisited From: Peter R. To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:26:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In his interview on Online Noetic Network Mitch Ditkoff makes a very strong and quite poetic case for the value of the experience of Knowledge given by Maharaji. While acknowledging that this requires some effort to sustain, he has, however, no hesitation whatever in describing this state as divine: 'Most of us are living in a very linear and logical mental state, doing the commerce of the world and tending to all that makes the world go round. There is another dimension which is free of all the habits of mind…. That experience is referred to in every single religion since the beginning of time. Every path, regardless of its name or teacher, is about turning within to the core of being…. The qualities, in my experience, of this inner place are all divine.' In his riposte, Will says: 'To me, mind and spirit and consciousness are not distinqishable (sic), so I don't make a distinction. Even my most 'deepest' meditation experiences have been mental states. Whenever somebody tries to distinquish (sic) a state of being vs a state of mind, I doubt the validity of what they are saying. And whenever somebody talks about the very 'CORE of being,' I get suspicious!' He goes on to say: 'However, I have experienced states of mind that are unordinary and beyond the usual, quite beyond the usual. I know what states of mind that LSD can produce, for example, including the complete absence of ego and a much larger than usual perspective.' One assumes here that even while in deepest trip, Will still retained his personal consciousness enough to observe the happening, thereby viewing it later as an extraordinary but definitely mental event. This causes me to wonder what Will would regard as a spiritual event. Would one have, for example, to enter the classic yogic state of samadhi described over the ages, in which the individual consciousness is reportedly dissolved into the superior power to such a total degree as no longer objectively to exist? I have never heard any reports of practicing premies or ex-premies ever undergoing the latter. Maybe they do exist (hidden away in nursing homes, totally fused out, inner circuitry incalculably blown?), but I think I doubt it. The above considerations highlight, however, the cardinal semantic difficulty which bedevils much discussion of K even between long-time ex-/practitioners. How can we ever know whether an experience is of the spirit or of the mind? IMO, however, I do believe that there are conditions in which we are truly experiencing spirit, while with full and total consciousness. Some of my profoundest experiences of such type actually pre-date hearing of Maharaji, and I'd like to mention them here to find out whether anyone else experienced anything comparable. (Please forgive this being a longish post, but I can't find a reasonable way around this..) In the immediate years before encountering Maharaji, I lived abroad, teaching English to foreigners. After finishing teaching one day, I went to the local café to relax. Quite suddenly I experienced an incredible feeling of beatitude. My mind felt released from surrounding barriers of thought, and I sat in total clarity, as though atop a warm fountain streaming inside of me, removed from the thoughts which continued to throw themselves up and fall away again. The effect lasted two or three hours, and I left it only with great reluctance when some of my students appeared, and I was compelled to return to the usual yapping consciousness. Over the following days, as a lingering after-effect remained, I pondered hard a paradox which had presented itself inescapably to me: Though the outside world had problems, I had always thought myself free in my mind, not realising that the finite reasoning mind was in fact a type of prison itself. The café had been another, realler world, in which I had felt much more wholly myself, free from the walls of the mind which constrained me. I began to see my own condition something like someone on an ocean voyage, who has wandered from the deck down into the depths below, into the boiler room or the chart room, where the computer gadgetry and so on lay, and become totally beguiled. The fascination was such I believed that to be the voyage itself, rather than the rushing sea, the widest, clearest skies, the most refreshing perfumes of the winds above. One or two days later I was in the British Council Library, and selected a book on Mysticism, about which I knew nothing, but looked interesting. Taking it home, I found the self-same experience described to my café one, but in terms of the mystical quest of the ages, wherein the individual returns to the Godhead or source by transcending the individual everyday ego. I found this extremely confronting but invigorating, feeling that perhaps for the first time in my life I was embarked upon something really essential, and which, I was starting to feel, I could not escape even if I wanted to. I had taken LSD a couple of times, and other substances at uni, but merely from peer-pressure, and this furnished me now with no useful guidelines. I felt somehow that the present journey hadn't the faintest relationship to such former occupations, and evoked memories of a much earlier era, intimations of childhood unity with surroundings, the special relationship I had enjoyed with many natural sensations, before my whole attention had become absorbed into my mental labyrinth. In the following months, I had further repetitions of the same café state, unpredictable always as to where and when, though deeply sought, and thought endlessly about consciousness and what our own internal limitations were. I was experiencing a lot that was good. Teaching university students was inspiring, and at times I felt driven to plot out short stories and notes for my eventual novel.. Simultaneously, however, I was feeling some alarm. That I had allowed myself to become enmeshed in questions I couldn't resolve, where the answers that came to me were not of my own volition, and more like a Jungian play of synchonicities. Finally, one night, I was in my flat, lying restlessly awake, my mind flooding with imagery and endless speculations. Eventually I gave up all pretence at sleep and paced the room. I then found myself back in the new world, as though I had crossed some endless but magical sea. Totally wondrous..One part of me was undoubtedly paranoid, however. I then heard a quiet internal voice which said to me absolutely clearly: This is the Kingdom of God. You have sought it everywhere else, but it was inside you all the time. I felt exhilarated but extremely perplexed, wondering: How can this be the Kingdom of God, if I am inside myself? I then saw a vision of a giant goblet, with a connecting line to a much smaller version of itself. I understood then that the larger represented the endless Self, while the smaller was my own limited one, connected together, but in essence one and the same. The following day I called in sick, left my students to their own devices, and took a long walk in the woods outside town. I felt I had travelled through an inner black hole into some miraculously new time-space parameters. I was thinking, sure, but experiencing all sensations with a totally renewed vitality and awareness. Everything fitted together in a way it hadn't for ages. Only one thing bothered me: not being able to give a name to the new area of consciousness I had discovered. And then the word came to mind most easily - my Soul. The land in which the Infinite touched my finite smaller being was my Soul. The Soul known as an everyday concept to people some centuries before, but in my case so covered in patina by mental preoccupations, the sad existentialisms of the times, and burdens of over-learning to be choked over with weeds and indiscernible, until it had perhaps decided to rediscover me. When receiving Knowledge, I believed this was a key to uniting, to an extremely benevolent and non-destructive extent with the soul within, and to harmonising the rational thinking process with the deeper soul to achieve the necessary internal integration of a human being. I don't know if this posting strikes any harmonies with anyone else, but it's what came to mind when reading Mitch and Will's very interesting offerings.

Subject: Re: Mitch and Will Revisited From: Thorin To: Peter R. Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 13:33:50 (PDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: Dear Peter As one samadhi seeker to another :) I very much enjoyed reading your journey (pre K). Many thanks for taking the time to write that very personal journey. The cafe 'timeliness' was truly scintillating (and I mean that). I very much look forward to hearing from you again. What I would personally like to know about very much (sincerely) is if you managed to harmonise the rational thinking process with the deeper soul to achieve the necessary internal integration of a human being - as you so eloquently put it. I, for one, believe this is fully possible and that we all have the required tools to achieve this. I would also go on and state, quite postively, that without the shackles of guruism that it is far easier, richer and more rewarding. However, even after I have just pinned my flag to the mast (as it were) I am sincerely interested to know what your perspective is and your journey post K. I want to listen to you. Warmly, Thorin

Subject: Something plus nothing equals something From: Jim To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 13:39:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Peter As one samadhi seeker to another :) I very much enjoyed reading your journey (pre K). Many thanks for taking the time to write that very personal journey. The cafe 'timeliness' was truly scintillating (and I mean that). I very much look forward to hearing from you again. What I would personally like to know about very much (sincerely) is if you managed to harmonise the rational thinking process with the deeper soul to achieve the necessary internal integration of a human being - as you so eloquently put it. I, for one, believe this is fully possible and that we all have the required tools to achieve this. I would also go on and state, quite postively, that without the shackles of guruism that it is far easier, richer and more rewarding. However, even after I have just pinned my flag to the mast (as it were) I am sincerely interested to know what your perspective is and your journey post K. I want to listen to you. Warmly, Thorin --- If there is no 'deeper soul' you can still get your 'integrated' human being. Something plus nothing still equals something.

Subject: Re: Mitch and Will Revisited From: Pat W To: Peter R. Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 18:14:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When receiving Knowledge, I believed this was a key to uniting, to an extremely benevolent and non-destructive extent with the soul within, and to harmonising the rational thinking process with the deeper soul to achieve the necessary internal integration of a human being. Same for me...I think now though that the wonderful experiences we had, so to speak, 'through Knowledge' were more due to our own sincerity and intentions rather than some 'blessing' from Maharaji himself. In other words we empowered hm as a mirror - and got a bit too carried away in the process. Being taught meditation by M was so inextricably mixed up with agendas about how to follow him -doing service and satsang etc. and going to see him all the time - I now feel that a lot of what I opened myself up to in that trusting state was simply unneccessary and in the long term, a distraction from the initial catalytic good effect I experienced (which was largely the experience I had before guiltily feeling that I had to follow his demands to 'surrender') . Otherwise why would I at 25 (8 years on from receiving K aged 17) find myself incredibly confused about why I had become a renunciate monk and undeniably experiencing a LESS beatific sense of union with the beloved God of my childhood as a result of obeying and listening to the so-called Lord incarnate's Agya. You talk about rational thinking, and I agree that one would dearly hope and even assume that the mind would work better when 'soaked' with experience of what we call 'soul' or God. I tend to think Maharaji's influence was initially beneficial in that through meditation and a sincere attitude one could undoubetdly amplify within oneself all these deep aspirations and good feelings. This is where the trust in him was formed which I now feel was dangerous. Externally Maharaji was making all sorts of suggestions and demands that in retrospect really seemed to be more about us kowtowing to his own authoritarian agenda than him being the loving teacher who would guide us to become the conscientious, rounded, integrated human beings that you and I no doubt aspire to being. After all, even Maharaji would seem to have made a number of mistakes and be a pretty troubled person himself, if the stories of his long term alcohol habits etc. are to be believed. There are 2 reasons why I have come to question the 'authority' of Maharaji and his trustworthiness in this rather important matter of my soul. I hasten to add that Maharaji has not satisfactorily answered these questions for me yet. Firstly I grew to feel extremely uncomfortable with the cold-often inhumaness that I saw around me, as a result of, what I saw as, people believing this idea that one's ego and personality and the conscientious maintenance thereof, is a distraction from the process of Knowledge - of less importance than just practicing Knowledge zealously. In other words many of us surrendered our 'minds' as instructed but what Maharaji gave us in return was a very moulded and unnatural group think. I was very unhappy and confused about that and felt a sense of loss in my life. M's answer- 'It was all your fault - you guys got the wrong end of the stick- screwed up.' An apology? Nothing so far has reached my ears. Secondly, Maharaji himself seems such an ego-centric and transparent person in many ways, that one can't help feeling that he has possibly more to learn about being a rounded human being than oneself. At the very least he probably did back then as a spoilt school kid. This is where some confusion and then resentment comes in about how he took advantage of our youthful sincerity and trust, our and filled our neccessarily 'emptied buckets' with his favourite Indian ideas about there being a Perfect master and the whole attendant devotional style religion that he grew up in, with all it's intimidation and medieval hierarchy and hipocrisies. I resent that he imposed that on me because it turned out to be a an unpleasant dead-end. I mean, he has now cut some of that stuff from the agenda but I was always uncomfortable with it from the start. Did he ask me for my advice then? No way..we basically had to bottle our own intuitions and ideas about how to behave, and instead waste years of our lives acting out his flawed plans for us. Especially if you lived in an ashram. All this presumably just to satisfy his vision of himself as being in command and with the dubious benefit to us that our personalities and conscience (and actual lives) were dying from lack of attention. Oh..and one can't forget of course, that we empowered him, not just with megalomaniac confidence in himself, but also a huge amount of money. Money which he has invested (thanks mainly to the good advice of premies) and is now beyond rich. What is telling is that he appears to think that life simply owed him this fortune and describes himself variously as 'an investor' or 'inventor', 'pilot' or 'business-man'. with apparently little acknowledgement of the sacrifices that we all made doing 'service'. Maybe he is too comfortable and has literally bought his currently enjoyed position of unnaccountability. M's answer to all this -'If you don't like it -Walk.'

Subject: Good point about the money, Pat From: Livia To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 15:35:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's a good point about the money, Pat. He basks comfortably in his millions, denying that he was ever 'God' and yet he must know that the money was donated to him by people who sincerely believed he was divine. Premies just wouldn't have given money in such huge amounts for his comfort and enjoyment if they thought he was a mere mortal - no way! However much they enjoyed the meditation - no way! 'He's the best - he must have the best' was the driving force behind all those direct donations. Plus there's the unsavoury rumours we have heard that some of the money donated for propogation ended up in his cffers... It doesn't bear thinking about, any of it. There's such powerful proof of his cynicism here. Rake in the money on the strength of premies' belief that you're the Lord. Years later, deny that you were ever the Lord, blame the very concept on the premies, but keep the money! And the poor innocent premies out there still don't believe he enjoys that stuff for its own sake. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Ho hum. Love, Livia

Subject: And good point, Liv, re homeopathy From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 15:38:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was an excellent analogy.

Subject: Re: Mitch and Will Revisited From: wandering frog To: Pat W Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 19:20:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent post, Pat. Very well put. A must-read for all culters. Many thanks.

Subject: Re: Mitch and Will Revisited From: Will To: Peter R. Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 15:03:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Peter R, Thanks for your remarks. Are we going to hear the rest of your story, post-Knowledge session? I've learned here that people came to Knowledge for different reasons. I think the 'types' of premies have been delineated here by somebody a year or two ago, something like: (1)those actively searching for the transcendent, (2)those who were attracted to the saving-the-world-message of early DLM, (3)those who were attracted to the loving community, (4)gopi types, (5)utter nut cases, etc. Personally, at this point, I can't understand how the enlightenment seekers could still follow Maharaji since he never really talks the way that you yourself talked just now. He even goes so far as to forbid questions about enlightenment in his meetings with his students. And I really don't think that practicing Knowledge really advances a person toward the type of enjoyable consciousness that you describe. So did following the guru and the practice of Knowledge promote your experience, or hinder it, or what? As for your question about what I would regard as a 'spiritual event', I think I will say that the God term that I like best is Universal Mind, meaning that the universe itself has a physical and mental side to it just as we little creatures do. So mind and spirit to me have no distinction even at the highest level. Eating a pineapple would therefore qualify as a spiritual event. In other words, I think the word 'spiritual' is problematic at best, always potentially misleading, and ultimately meaningless. As for the Rawatian distinction between the 'mind' and 'Knowledge,' I find such a teaching to be horribly simplistic, no better than Saturday morning cartoon depictions of the angel and devel atop a person's shoulders. Mind, spirit, and body should never be pitted against each other. This is the religious scourge which has generously supplied humankind with an endless supply of needless suffering. You ask if others have had unsolicited peek moments or days. I remember times in my childhood when the beauty of nature would make me swoon, and then I was left with a peaceful 'clarity' of thought, able to laugh at people's problems, including my own. These episodes often happened on days or in places that are not ordinarily considered especially beautiful, such as a simple brick road and a few old bare trees on a gray day in November. Which brings us to the subject at hand, the guru, which you didn't quite get to. My opinion is that Guruism is for people who have very little regard for themselves and the world they live in, and who think there is something better that they are supposed to attain. Guruism actually supplies zero TRUE benefits for anyone, including the guru, certainly not the benefits advertised. The perceived benefits are on the level of drug taking, which is not to say they are absolutely worthless; the benefits are just rather minorly worthwhile, mostly imaginary, and prone to all kinds of dilemmas. Gurus should be scorned and laughed at. Students should all walk. What do you think?

Subject: Thanks to PatW and Will From: Peter R. To: Will Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:12:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi,Will, Thanks to yourself and PatW for your replies. I haven't got immediate time for a more fulsome reply. However, would it be possible to have your email addresses for possible future correspondence? Best wishes to both of you.

Subject: Re: Thanks to PatW and Will From: Pat W To: Peter R. Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:49:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sure Peter...my email's patrick@patrickwilson.com Anytime

Subject: Re: Thanks to PatW and Will From: Will To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 10:20:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PR - My email that you should use is willwilliams38@hotmail.com, although I don't check it everyday. Pat - I enjoyed your post, stated in a way that everyone should at least be able to understand even if they don't concur.

Subject: Re: Mitch and Will Revisited From: The Falcon To: Peter R. Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:58:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I really enjoyed your post and have experienced similar epiphanies through meditation (so-called knowledge, zazen, cabbala, mindfulness, Taoist alchemy) exhaustion, acid and, the big one, DMT. Life is the only teacher.(No guru necessary)

Subject: 'Watergate: Legacy of Secrets' Tonight OT From: Cynthia.....FYI To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 12:56:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For anyone who would like to revisit the Watergate-Nixon debacle there's a special on tonight at 10:00 on Discovery Channel. I saw Ben Bradley, David Frost and others on Larry King last week. Apparently there will be out-takes from the Frost interview with Nixon. Today's the 30th (I think) anniversary of the June 17th Watergate break-in. I think Deep-Throat is Henry Kissinger. http://dsc.discovery.com/schedule/episode.jsp?episode=23783000 Watergate on Discovery dsc.discovery.com/schedule/episode.jsp?episode=23783000

Subject: Maharaji and the God experience From: Jerry To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 09:49:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was wondering about SHP (you remember him, doncha?) and the many debates I had with him about Maharaji. Of all the premies that have posted here, I think SHP was the most troubled by the inconsistencies of what he experienced with K and the allegations of Maharaji's private behaviour. SHP is one of those guys who really believed, or believes, that with Knowledge you get to see God. I was wondering about this. I, myself, don't find myself in a predicament over learning about Maharaji's less than exemplary lifestyle because I never had any great breakthroughs practicing K. I certainly neve saw God. To me, there's nothing divine about M. I've never experienced anything that would lead me to conclude there is. But what about people who have had profound spiritual experiences with K? That's got to be a mindblower. If you feel that you've established a consciousness of God as a result of practicing K, how do you deal with the allegations found on this website? How could someone who you believe showed you God possibly be guilty of what he's been accused of? SHP went to extreme rationalizations to explain this conflict, digging into scriptures for examples of other holy men chosen by God to spread his message but not being of the most exemplary character themselves. Personally, I don't think he ever really convinced himself of his arguments, though he did give it his best shot. So, what about the rest of you? If you've had a really profound experience with K where you've felt, just as promised, that you've beheld the glory of God, how do you reconcile the fact that Maharaji's the guy who gave you the tools to have such an experience?

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: Bolly To: Jerry Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 08:03:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As a devoutee I had plenty of blow yer mind moments. Out of curiousity I adopted the mindset the other day prior to cleaning the bathroom. You can switch into that mindset and have that light as air sensation, or any other at will. Just believe only believe. On an earlier thread Livia reffered to the various ways people responded to satsang depending on how prepped up they were for the experience. She made some very good points there. As I say just believe it works but do you want it to? I personally lke lfe with all the flavours. Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: Livia To: Jerry Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 05:38:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My view is this: some people are more prone than others to having 'other-worldly' experiences when they practise the techniques of Knowledge. Some people I know have had their minds completely blown when they sit to meditate. Others have experienced very little or nothing at all. I have no idea of the reasons for this. I was shown the techniques before receiving K, during a period when I was investigating and questioning it. Driven by intense curiousity, I sat and practised them (all at once - didn't know any different) and had my mind completely blown. I felt as if I was being propelled into some other world - very 'cosmic' and wonderful. I only did this once. A few months later I received K properly and had much less of an experience. Stuck with it and often had very beautiful experiences but only sometimes anything as powerful as that first time when I was taken completely by surprise and when I didn't yet believe in Maharaji. As for experiences around him, obviously experiences of this kind can be induced by intense belief or longing. Maharaji himself apparently said darshan worked because we wanted it to. The ex Rajneesh devotee Sumray said above that they always felt that their experience reigned supreme over ours! My experience with the techniques before receiving Knowledge says something of the power of going inside for some, with or without Maharaji. If I had had that experience in the Knowledge session I would have been utterly convinced of Maharaji's divinity there and then. As it happened I became convinced more slowly, over the subsequent few months. What does this tell you? It certainly tells me something, with the benefit of years of hindsight. Do you not see that it's far too simplistic to say that because M 'taught' you the techniques of Knowledge and you have had experiences in meditation and around him, that that makes him necessarily special in some way? The bare facts are that one of Maharaji's devotees showed you the techniques. You then presumably had wonderful experiences - but so did I, before being 'properly' initiated. You have had beautiful experiences around Maharaji - so did I - after hearing endless descriptions of who he might be! I haven't heard of many 'disbelievers' who on finding themselves in Maharaji's presence have felt very much, if anything. I took lots of people to see him when a practising premie and a number of them came away saying they felt nothing, including my parents and a number of close friends. For some reason the word 'auto-suggestion' springs to mind... Don't be so quick to assume anything - anything at all. Livia

Subject: Bliss is good for cleaning toilets From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:29:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another good analysis, Livia. I liked what Bolly said: ''Out of curiousity I adopted the mindset the other day prior to cleaning the bathroom. You can switch into that mindset and have that light as air sensation, or any other at will. Just believe only believe.'' Once you get out of the prison of concepts that Rev Rawat trapped us in, you see that you can have any experience you want, any state of mind you wish. You want bliss? Have it? You want a clear mind? Have it. You want misery? Have it. Well, I don't indulge in the misery stuff anymore but bliss is good for cleaning toilets.

Subject: Genesis was dyselexic From: AJW To: Jerry Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 03:41:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jerry, Genesis couldn't spell very well. The Universe was really created in 7 days by a giant Dog, not God. This has lead to all sorts of serious misunderstandings over the centuries. Than the muhan

Subject: Aha! So that's why there's so many trees (nt) From: cq To: AJW Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 05:46:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Aha! So that's why there's so many trees.

Subject: They should have been streets Chris (nt) From: AJW To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 06:59:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: tn

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: jon diener To: Jerry Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 01:07:50 (PDT) Email Address: jdiener@gilanet.com Message: I want to take a crack at a challenge from some of you to reconcile Maharaji’s “immoral” conduct with his being a Master and so forth. With respect to his having sex with women other than his wife, I say this: I believe that sex in a world of fully evolved and enlightened people would be understood very differently than it is in our society. I think that monogamy is a necessary form of relationship for most of us who are learning about opening up, intimacy, trusting and loving someone else. But I also believe that if I and others around me had learned the lessons and evolved on those issues, it would open up the possibility of having sex with more than just one intimate partner. Whether this is where Maharaji is at with it I don’t know, but I suspect at least he is way farther in that direction than you or I. Secondly, and this relates all across the board on the “bad conduct” complaint, it is very comforting to think of a Master or Maharaji in particular as a “perfect person” who personifies everything wholesome and good. However, my understanding of the evolutionary state of mankind and perhaps the universe is that it is in a state of healing deep spiritual splits and wounds which occurred in the early stages of Creation. In fact, that God and the Divine Mother if you will, were deeply confused and fucked up when they first became aware of themselves, met and tried to establish a relationship, before they even began creating fragmented spirits such as you and I. (There is a remarkable set of books which explains all this if anyone is interested, ask me.) That these imbalances are beginning to heal in us, but noone on Earth is free of them or perfectly healed as of yet. Thus, even someone with what I consider to be the prowess of Maharaji as far as experiencing states of joy and conveying that to others in a master-student relationship has imbalances and problems. I also think that doing what Maharaji does is an almost superhuman feat in the face of all the opposition within people and vibrationally on the planet the constant travelling and having to deal with so many people. I think it is almost unnatural and therefore if he needs some alcohol to be able to handle this task, I say so be it. It is clear to me from my experience of him that his alcohol usage has not prevented him from awakening deep heartfelt experiences in people or feeling joy himself. As far as smoking dope, I see nothing problematic with that at all. As to Maharaji being mean or uncaring to his staff or premies, first of all my personal encounters with Maharaji, limited and dated though they were revealed none of that. But, perhaps more importantly, Maharaji is compelled to rely on and interact closely with many other people to be able to do what he does. That’s just what his job requires. Some or a lot of these people may well be obnoxious and idiotic. Receiving Knowledge and particularly getting into high levels of the organization does not imply that one is a nice person or that one is free from idiocy. So if Maharaji call them idiots behind their backs, that is all right with me. I do the same thing too. I don’t confront people who are being idiots to their face, except in some circumstances, because confronting people like that often emeshes you deeper with them in the very idiocy you were not liking in the first place. Nevertheless, I will vent my frustration with people when I have the chance to with someone I trust. I don’t know enough about the JagDeo thing to say much. However, I do want to say this: I do not see Maharaji as a leader or a CEO of a group. That is a very secondary role he may find himself in. What he does is, not to belabor the point but, is to catalyze the Knowledge experience and wake people up to a higher vibration and to joy. As noted above, on the scale he does this, this is such an impossibly difficult task, that I give him some leeway in not also manning the helm of every problem that comes up in his organization. But again, even if this genuinely reveals an instance of irresponsibility on his part, that does not mean he is not the gifted and powerful teacher, which in my experience, he clearly is. Rather it means he is not perfect. Maharaji never claimed to be perfect. He said that Perfect Master meant that he could teach perfection and that is an experience which he did teach me. It is not a state of perfect behavior or conduct. I think our need for him to be a perfect role model is our own problem or lack of understanding. But bottom line is that if you do not have a deep sense of appreciation for Maharaji and what he does, if you cannot or do not FEEL what he is about, then of course, this is going to look like a damning confirmation of your perspective. And there is nothing that can be further said from my perspective that would have any meaning to you, so ‘nuff said’. JON jon diener

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: Jerry To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 15:57:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's an interesting theory, Jon - the more evolved you are the more likely it is you'll cheat on your wife. 'But honey, I can't help it if I'm the pinnacle of evolution! Stop being so neanderthal!' Uh, huh. I'm sure that will go over big with the women of the world. But here's my philosopy: Higamus, hogamus, women are monogomus Hogamus, higamus, men are polygamous Whatever. Let's move onto the theory of how our 'divine mother' and Dad created the world. The fact that you believe in this theory only shows me how gullible you are. So I have to see you in that light when you talk about your experiences with M&K. I don't see a sharp, discriminating mind at work here. Sorry. I also think that doing what Maharaji does is an almost superhuman feat in the face of all the opposition within people and vibrationally on the planet the constant travelling and having to deal with so many people. A very, very, very, very minute percentage of the world's population turn onto Maharaji, Jon. A little perspective, please. As far as smoking dope, I see nothing problematic with that at all. What if you preached against it, and then smoked it behind peoples' backs, as Maharaji has done. Not long ago a satsang where Maharaji was denouncing smoking pot was posted on this forum. Nobody knew at the time, except his inner circle, that he was getting stoned regularly. Liked to blare Peter Frampton while he was at it, so I hear. Receiving Knowledge and particularly getting into high levels of the organization does not imply that one is a nice person or that one is free from idiocy. I don't think too many ex-premies would disagree with this, Jon. It still doesn't mean Maharaji wasn't a prick. But because you've placed Maharaji on such a pedestal, of course you're going to see him as being in the right and the PAMs (People Around Maharaji) as being idiots. That's just a result of your idol worship as far as I'm concerned, your love for the cult leader. I don’t know enough about the JagDeo thing to say much. However, I do want to say this: I do not see Maharaji as a leader or a CEO of a group. Well, whether you see him as that or not, that's what, effectively, he was, Jon. He dispatched his mahatmas. When he said 'jump', they asked 'how high'? They were at his beck and call and they served wherever he commanded them to. You extrapolate from that if Maharaji knew about the accusations concerning Jagdeo. Maharaji never claimed to be perfect. Bullshit. I distinctly remember him encouraging us to be perfect, even as the master 'is perfect, really, really perfect'. Maybe you never heard that, but I did. And it stuck. It's just one of those things I'll never forget hearing him say. Jon, maybe you have felt something perfect, and if you have you're obviously right, a person doesn't have to be perfect, himself, to be a catalyst for that experience, as I believe Maharaji has been for you. But you seem to be denying the role you've played in this experience. You compare Maharaji to the sun, and the heat of it. I'm not so sure this is true. Everybody feels the heat of the sun. Not everybody feels joy and happiness in the presense of Maharaji. Why do you suppose that is if that joy and happiness radiating from him is an objective force, as is the heat of the sun.

Subject: Oh Boy ! From: Brian Smith To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 08:02:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, You are in a cult, a cult that pretends like it is not a cult. I hear loud and clear your apologist views neatly wrapped around the story that you bought to fit the circumstances you have chosen to accept. Your whole post is an arguement in favor of the limitations and rationalizations that you are so deeply invested in to keep the big myth alive. Why don't you just come right out and say it Jon, you really do think that Maharaji is the Lord of the Universe. A supernatural divine incarnation far above us lowly fragmented humpty dumpty spiritual cretins that only he can put back together again. Go ahead admit it, bottom line you think he is the lord don't you? or do you dare say what you really believe deep down inside? At least if you came clean I could respect your authenticity for your commited stand in the matter. Instead you dance. The problem is you can't be completely open and honest about your true feelings because the core of the issue is so inauthentic and corrupted by secrets and lies you cannot even stand up to declare and announce the good news that the savior of mankind is vibrating amongst us. Vibrating a little stoned and tipsy at times to relieve the stress of saving all of us lost souls but nonetheless the purveyor of joy and awakening for it. Why hold back on a message as important to the world as this Jon? Shout it loud and proud the lord is on this planet. Or is it as obvious to you as it is to me how ridiculous it all sounds and actually is? Either shit or get off the pot Jon

Subject: Re: Oh Boy ! From: Richard To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 21:34:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well said as always, Brian. I'm just catching up on this on topic thread and really enjoyed your input. Really good to see you here and very happy to read your health report is looking up. You are in my thoughts often. I'm still up for that project you asked about, too.

Subject: Oh Boy From: Brian Smith To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 13:51:38 (PDT) Email Address: bgsmith@teleport.com Message: Hi Richard, I will have to get up there to see you some time, or you can come here we are not that far from each other. Thanks for you words of encouragement and kindness throughout, email me for detailed update

Subject: Is it harder for smart guys like Jon? From: Jim To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 15:37:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It isn't just because Jon's a fellow lawyer (and 'SC alum!) but I know that Jon's a smart guy. And nice, sincere, thoughtful. But look at the confusing monkey he's got on his back! Poor guy. Jon, Brian is SO right. You will feel a million times lighter when you finally connect the dots. Guranteed. By the way, if you want to talk: jimheller@shaw.ca Where are you practising these days, anyway?

Subject: lawyer question real interesting From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 05:11:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim's asking Jon about his law practice triggered a real significant drift of question, for me... Think about this. 'those who love sausages, or the Law, should never witness either one being made' Laws are hashed out and arrived at, and changed over time. They're pretty much arbitrary. They aren't universal, all across the board, with all cultures, societies, governments or groups. theft in a muslim country dictates that your hand be cut off. theft in america results in mere jail time, and maybe a fine. heresy in the middle ages could get you torn on the rack, burned at the stake, excommunicated from the empire. today, no one cares at all. really. look at the pedophile priests.nothing is bad enough to get your religion to kick you out or take your life anymore. so let's think about law, and lawyering. it seems that the law is whatever people say it is. and they can change their minds and change the laws [the rules] anytime. and lawyering doesn't concern itself with the rightness of the law, only with whatever it says for the time being. a lawyer can play prosecutor as well as defender. it doesnt much matter. Law is looked at as a game of winning and losing. It's not all that concerned with absolutes. a good lawyer can argue either side of a question. thats pretty damned inconstant. a passionate lawyer can enter into the spirit of their case with zeal and True Belief. environmental lawyers certainly do. Or one can be cynical and cut and dried and do what pays the bills and not care what the issue is, as long as one gets paid. The case of the EPA vs shell oil vs the superfund is such a case. shell decided it would cost them less to filibuster and stall in court for years and years, than to ultimately own up to the staggering cost of cleaning the rocky mountain arsenal land. utterly unconcerned with doing what was right, they decided to go with whatever was cheapest. their lawyers didnt say a peep about representing them. this raises some hard questions about the veracity of the mind of someone like Jon. he has made it his life work to be able to accept ANY system of arbitrary rules, anywhere, and adopt a mask of persuading for them. that's what he earns his money for doing. the particular list of rules is unimportant. whatever it says today is what he'll get up there and argue for. could be to kill a man in the electric chair. could be to save him from it. could be to save the environment. could be to avoid cleaning it at all costs. could be to cut off a thief's hand. could be not to. whatever the actual rule is, that's what he picks up and uses. it doesnt trouble him that was was Ok yesterday is a crime today, and might not be, wherever he is, tomorrow. what is legal today, here, now, might be illegal over there, when you're there tomorrow. he doesnt care. to him, there is whatever the rules say he's being asked to argue for this client, in this case, in front of him. and this means that being asked to be a premie, having walked into the myth of all the rules and temporary beliefs and causes and explanations that arbitrarily reign in the group of maharajiism, regardless of how absurd or unbalanced or unfair, no matter how fantastical or illogical or stretched they are, and with no mind to the reality that what was absolute truth in the 70's, peculiarly was no longer so in the 80's, and transmogrified even more blatantly in the 90's--none of this stops him in the least, and makes him ask if there isnt something wrong with all this. it seems to me a mental life of convenience. it seems to me morally corrupt and lazy, to make oneself available, to be such a thing, so facilely, and for hire, no less! my father once confided to me, with pure disgust, that 'all doctors are whores: you pay em enough, they'll do whatever you want em to.' and it would seem to be true of these other aspects of humanity, that one would think would have some sense of right and wrong, of what's real and what is not. but it turns out, not so. we use the Law to take from people their freedom, their money, and their very lives. we use it to dictate to them what they can do and what they can't, and where and when and with whom--and then we turn around and change it. and ignorance of the law is no excuse. ! this said, and in this light-- jon's long, wordy presentation for maharaji and what he believes about him, are nothing more than what attorneys do. it isnt any more binding, personal, real or consistent than any lawyer at their craft. the rules are founded on quicksand, the arguments defending them are wind, both presenters are schooled in representing either side of society's feelings about it-- so how can what he claims, be taken in any form at all?? there is no foundation, nothing permanent to any of it, when seen this way. it makes one look foolish in the extreme, and not to be trusted, in the final assessment. is right and wrong a game? is truth for sale to the highest bidder? are the rules not really the rules? how can Jon face himself, knowing all this is so? He lives looking at it every day! How can he stand it? Wouldnt you think that practicing the Law, he would be among the first to realize that the law is levelled for everybody, or it's pointless? Lady Justice is blindfolded. Her sword cuts clean and cuts everyone alike with the same blade. Except that it doesn't. You would think he would see the inconsistancy, be troubled by the obvious inequalities, the now-you-see-it, now-you-don't whims of the history of the laws. Maybe that blindfold is more treacherous than we first thought. Maybe it isn't meant to symbolize equal justice at all. Maybe it portrays the willfull blindness one has to swallow, in order to stay in, play the game and survive. Because to take it off, Seeing too clearly, means one has to get up, walk out, and leave.

Subject: Righto janet, lawyers deal with consensus reality [nt] From: Dep To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:56:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: 'Reality' is a word best left for others, Dog [nt] From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 10:18:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What a load of nonsense! From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 15:20:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, Janet, you're wrong. The law is not at all that arbitrary and lawyers, at least as far as I can see, are not less ethical for any reason than other people. Nice try, though.

Subject: appreciate your kindness there JH From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 02:31:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i expected you to rip me. thanks for not. actually, I have powerful admiration for the lawyers who are ethical, dedicated, beleive in their clients and only work for causes theyfeel are just. i get twisted inside out, having to witness the work of the opposition, when the truth is known and they refuse to budge from picking a victim and hanging them for the sake of making a case and having someone to accuse of being guilty. or alternately, for taking the money and working for the side who is clearly in the wrong, but has the funds to obfuscate and dodge consequences for a long time. i guess my late night angst came out. actually, my entertainment habits these days run to the tensest, most dramatic portrayals of law and medicine that i can find. written by real lawyers and real doctors. so what does that tell you about me? and those of you who can stay in the craft and not walk out--you must have something i don't. for that, i have to salute you. you succeed where i could not. and yes, i know--our law process isnt perfect-whether in making law, enforcing it, adjudicating it, interpreting it or using it--but it's the best of what we can do, in the face of life and human behavior. it's better than anarchy. ani do find it profoundly satisfying to read the various opinions and judgements, and how they were reasoned . it fills a deep need in my mind for meticulously arriving at what is right. so I'm not as anathema as i probably sounded, up there. i just find the flaws and the failings too disheartening and frustrating.

Subject: OT it's the last day of creation.... From: The Falcon To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 08:00:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and all the creatures were gathering to try and figure out what they were, a rabbit was talking to a snake. The rabbit said'What do I look like?' to which the snake replied, 'Well, you're covered in grey fur, you have a white bib, buck teeth and big floppy ears', 'Great I'm a bunny rabbit' said the rabbit to which the snake replied, 'What do I look like?'. The rabbit looked at the snake and said, ' Well, you have an oily skin, speak with a forked tongue and have no ears at all', 'Fuck', said the snake, 'I'm a lawyer' Sorry Jim, Jon, Marianne but irresistible!

Subject: Re: OT it's the last day of creation.... From: jon diener To: The Falcon Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 08:12:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey thats a good one. made me laugh out loud.

Subject: Re: lawyer question real interesting From: Vicki To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 06:59:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janet, Hi, how are you? Things going better for you and your son? I was wondering if you ever thought about going back to school?

Subject: Hitting the nail on the head From: The Falcon To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:51:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I asked Jon some key questions below and as yet have not had a response, however, another good premie friend of mine who is a major lifer/church lady was asked recently 'Do you think Maharaji is the Lord of the Universe?' He answered, ' I don't think, I know!' Nothing new there then.

Subject: LOL ! Brian! From: gerry To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:01:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I see you were up late last night. The idiot calling you at 8:30 in the morning was me. Sorry! I loved this part: ...you cannot even stand up to declare and announce the good news that the savior of mankind is vibrating amongst us. Vibrating a little stoned and tipsy at times to relieve the stress of saving all of us lost souls but nonetheless the purveyor of joy and awakening for it. Our Wobbly Lord! I hope Jon catches on...

Subject: Hey Gerry From: Brian Smith To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 18:02:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Its good to hear from you, no matter what the time. I am obviously feeling better and back in the trenches once again. Thanks for your help with the generator it is working like a charm. I will call Asap

Subject: JON-a coupla questions for you... From: la-ex To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 07:38:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1)You talk of a seeming 'sexual utopia' that may be possible between more evolved or enlightened people, and also imply that maharaji is more evolved than us in these matters... Respectfully, I beg to differ.... When you read about Michael Dettmers accounts of essentially 'pimping' for maharaji,does that seem to indicate the 'utopian relationship' you are talking about? Especially when he cheats on his wife and children to do so...disregards his marriage vows (that he loved to show us on video).. And when he dumps the women and won't speak to them after the fling? Most of these women were in the ashram, where they had not engaged in sexual relationships for years, and were forbidden to do so, for life, by him! He then screws them, dumps them, and leaves aides like MD to deal with the mess? Is that 'enlightened behavior'? How about the pain and suffering he has caused those women, the premies who have to deal with the mess, his wife, and his children, who now know that the entire world can read about their hypocritical father and bizarre family? 2)Concerning alcohol or drugs, you seem to be OK with it, if that's what he needs to do his job... a-doesn't this seem hypocritical, as he is preaching to the premies on the one hand to stay away from such substances, and telling that they don't need them and they are harmful to them (if you doubt this, check out the Atlantic City tapes) while he is not only doing them, but becoming addictded to them as well? b-And why would he ever need drugs/alcohol anyway, if knowledge is so great? Wasn't his whole message that you only needed Knowledge to get high on life? That knowledge was the answer, and the only true high worth going after? And shouldn't he as teacher, be setting the example, to show that it can in fact be done? 3)Can you talk about the fact that he is such a hypocrite who refuses to answer any of these very real questions from his most loyal followers? Does he owe them an apology or explanation? 4)Do you see how he is hurting his followers lives right now, as he encourages them to troll for aspirants, never tells the followers about his 'dark side', and then lets them take the potential hurt, embarrassment, pain and possible social and financial losses as these potential aspirants discover these disturbing things and confront premies and other related people with them? Shouldn't he have the class and guts to 'level' with his followers and tell them what kind of mess he is pulling them into, and let them decide for themselves if they want to get into this debacle or not? What kind of man so shamelessly lies, deceives and hurts people, especially his followers who have literally given him his fortune? Does ANY of this ring true for you? Are you willing to acknowledge ANY of this? If so, WHAT? If not, are you willing to look inside yourself and try to understand why you cannot confront a known liar? The silence from the premies only makes it worse for him, and them....wait and see....

Subject: rationalising behaviour From: Livia To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 06:14:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, you have just done what I have noticed homeopaths sometimes do. A homeopath prescribes a remedy. The person gets better. The homeopath puts this down to the remedy working. A homeopath prescribes a remedy. The person does not get better. The homeopath puts this down to extreme imbalances in the person. This way homeopathy remains unchallenged and the patient's own weaknesses are seen as the reasons for the failure of homeopathy to cure. In the same way, suppose Maharaji had no apparent personal flaws. He remained faithful to Marolyn. He didn't need to drink alcohol or smoke dope. He treated his devotees with obvious love and kindness both in and out of their presence. He appeared to manifest qualities of wisdom and enlightenment. Premies such as yourself would (I presume) see this as simple evidence that Knowledge worked. The master of Knowledge lives an exemplary life - I really couldn't see any premie having a big problem with that. The reality, though, is different. Maharaji doesn't lead an exemplary life. He is unfaithful to his wife, treats his lovers with something less than respect, drinks rather a lot, smokes dope and doesn't always treat the people who love him with love and respect. Premies such as yourself have no problem with any of this either. So: homeopathy - cure - fine. homeopathy - no cure - fine. Maharaji - (hypothetical) exemplary life - fine. Maharaji - non-exemplary life - fine. In the case of the believer in homeopathy the assumption is that homeopathy works. All the facts around this, even when homeopathy fails to work, are interpreted in such a way as to protect the central hypothesis - that homeopathy works. In the case of the believing premie, the assumption is that Maharaji is special in some way and has the power to enable the experience of Knowledge in his premies. All the facts around this, even when Maharaji behaves in a manner that demonstrates that he falls short on personal integrity, are interpreted in such a way that protects the central hypothesis - that Maharaji is special etc. The homeopath believes in homeopathy no matter what. The premie believes in Maharaji no matter what. The homeopath ends up having to distort and spin in order to protect his belief. The premie ends up having to distort and spin in order to protect his belief. In the end, integrity, honesty and simple common sense become the casualties and neither the homeopath or the premie can see it. One can only wonder just how much homeopathy can fail, or how 'undivine' Maharaji can become before they start losing their core followers. All this says one hell of a lot about people's need to believe, and the lengths they will go to in order to protect and rationalise their belief. Livia

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: The Falcon To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 02:54:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jon, I too had many of these contact highs around Maharaji but I would like you to consider this set and setting;- Post-'60s we were very open, enthusiastic, dedicated to both World Peace and Enlightenment(still am)and the'doors of perception'had been well and truly blasted off their hinges, let's just call it susceptibilty. Exactly the same as dating - 'wow she's gorgeous!' you say but your friend says 'no she's not' 'Maharaji is the one' says you but your friend says 'No it's Rajneesh whose the one'(It is also amazing that we can fall in love/lust with someone who turns into a monster-perception eh?) Vivekananda said that charisma can be produced and I tend to agree, having met many performers who have on and off stage personas, funny most of them took stimulants too, it must go with the territory of performance(-see Maharaji. The most charismatic person I have ever seen was that poor brood-mare for the UK royal family- Princess Diana, she glowed in the dark, why?- because she was greatly loved by millions, if not by her husband and his frightful family, particularly The Queen Mother (they just got the smell of piss out of Buckingham Palace- took weeks) C.G.Jung called this phenomena - projection. In my experience the 'power', 'grace', (remember that as it seems to have been forgotten about-no more guru kripa as it's bad for business)'baraka' , call it what you will, works perfectly adequately without a belief system about Maharaji or any other flavour of guru. My goal was always for enlightenment and peace and harmony for mankind and although it sounds kind of quaint and naive in the 21st century I will persist in both endeavours with the help of Life- the only teacher. I am sure none of us ever wanted a belief system or another religion but even in the face of your declarations to the contrary that it was you've got. I am well out of it and still having 'that experience'. Some questions to conclude;- Do you think that Maharaji is the source or has anything to do without your personal experience? Do you believe in Maharaji's grace? Are you appalled by his renowned profligacy and non-existent contribution to society (with the one exception being his small donation to the earthquake victims of Gurjarat)? Do you still kiss his feet, is so why? all the best

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: jon diener To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 20:55:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In answer to your questions Falcon, I don't think I would have had the experiences I had through my relationship with Maharaji if I hadn't met him. I think he is a catalyst for those experiences. I would not say he is the 'source' of those experiences. I believe that what Maharaji does in this regard is somewhat magical and not explainable in normal logical terms. You could call that Maharaji's 'grace'. If you mean some Godlike power to make things happen (other than what I have mentioned) on the physical plane which he has no apparent control over, then I do not believe in that. However, I will say that he has at least one one such unusual power which is connected with the Holi celebration. Since an explanation this would be probably enemtha (right word?) to many ex-premies, I will spare the details. Im sorry I dont know what proifligacy means and my dictionary is not in the cabin/office Im sitting in. I take it has something to do with his sexual activity. No I am not appalled. I don't condone it either and it is cause for some concern depending on whether Dettmers take on it is all right on. I think maharaji makes a rather large contribution to society. That he does not give money to charity is not something that appalls me. Let me say that the concerns raised by many of you exes are not something I just poo poo. I think they are legitimate questions that you all raise. I think it is good to understand Maharaji is not a perfect actor and may have flaws. However, my ultimate conclusion about him is, as I have written about, different than yours. As far as kissing maharaji's feet, I have not had formal darshan for many years. In my half a dozen or so darshan experiences in the past, I believe I kissed his feet only once. I don't regret having done so in the slightest. It is a bit of an intimate thing to be discussing with an unknown audience on the Internet and particularly with exes. I will say that my kissing Maharaji's feet was not, in my mind or my experience or in Maharaji's mind because we had some good eye contact afterward, a sign of the much feared by exes, subservience to Maharaji. It had nothing at all to do with that. IN many ways,in that particular darshan experience I felt very much in a common rapport with Maharaji. His expression and communication with me had nothing to do with him being bigger, more or higher than me. It had alot to do with the two of us sharing something we both felt was very special. (If any of you want to attack me on this I will be disappointed. It will indicate that I cannot be vulnerable and straightforward on this site.)

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: la-ex To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 09:25:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon D: First of all, my hat's off to you as a premie who is unafraid to come into the 'wolves den', so to speak, and dialog with some exes...it shows courage and a willingness to be open minded, even if it does disobey agya and premie beliefs... I was just wondering if you would consider responding to my above post 'a coupla questions'... Also, What concerns me is the 'belief system' that premies buy into concerning maharaji as some sort of 'perfect master', which is never defined, but always includes the assumption that maharaji cannot and should not be questioned.... Coupled with that admonition from a supposed 'divine' source (m), is the belief that m has consistently repeated that there is no ultimate moal code that need be talked about or followed, seemingly because every culture and religion has wildly different versions of such a code that could never be reconciled.... However, when you combine those 2 beliefs (don't question the master, and there is no moral code for him to follow), it provides a potent force to easily manipulate followers with.... Do you agree with this? Do you see how it harms many people, and effects everyone involved, including m himself and you? I'd be curious to hear your response, esp. since you are an attorney and have presumably been trained to think and understand all sides of the story... Thanks... PS: You've got some WILD concepts going on about God.....are you seriously believing in these, or do you just 'play' with them as a sort of hobby? Reason I ask is that although you must be an intelligent and objective person to be a practicing lawyer,you seem to be able to chuck all of that out when it comes to the spiritual realm....it also seems that you do that with the 'maharaji belief system', although I doubt that you think at this point that you even have a 'MBS'....comments, rebuttals?...just curious, and thanks for being here...best of lck...

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: jon diener To: la-ex Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 20:57:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Im gonna express a little bit of anger here towrd the exes here. And let me say I find some of you quite interesting and intelligent and appreicate your willingess to give me space to expresss here. However.. The concept of agya is so outdated that I am suprised you are so hung up on it. Noone I know who is a premie has said anything about agya since the early seventies. And even then I knew noone who was laboring under agya, or if they were they didn't mention it. I certainly never received agya or wanted to ask maharaji for it. A freind of mine was appointed as GEneral Secretary of an ashram once by Maharaji, but I didn't see that as 'agya' Many of you are so hung up on rules and religion and afraid of Maharaji as some sort of authority figure, it is hard for me to understand. (I can hear the religion drums beating in some of your heads already, 'it was guruworship and he demanded it of us and I was victimized.' I say bullshit. I always felt like I was doing just what i wanted to be doing when I lived in the ashram and when I no longer wanted to be there, I left. In the years shortly after I sometimes felt like some of the ashram life was a denial of parts of me. (It was also a very good expereoince in a lot fo ways.)I never felt like Maharaji caused the denial part at all.I chose it. I never thought Maharaji would not like me leaving the ashram. I dont think he cared one way or the other. I think he was glad if I was having a positive expereience of KNowledge, in the ashram ir anywhere else in the world and thats about the extent of it. The truth is there are no rules in life or in the 'world of KNowledge'. (Of course, there are consequences to unloving actions and there are different choices which can be considered more or less loving and/or more or less unloving.) I feel like many of you exes gave Maharaji way too much power and gave up way too much responsibility in feeling and determining what was right for you and what wasn't. Maharaji did not make you do that. You did it. I was listening to him and to the mahatmas and all the satsang and I did not think Maharaji had assumed responsibility for my life at all. And thats not because I am a terribly responsible or enlightened person either. I'm not. I just never fell into that particular muisunderstanding or confusion. 'Maharaji made me do it.' Bullshit I say. 'But he said...' Bullshit. Take responsibility for what you did or didnt do and stop blaming the convenient 'authority figure'. 'But he said we should listen to our Guru Maharaji... and surrender our lives....' So why did you think you should do that ? Anyway, surrender for anyone who is really thiking about it is clearly not, 'Ill do just what you say to do.' it is a letting go to something and to me, clearly an inner experience of opening up and dropping barriers. I mean JOhn Denver wrote a song about surrender didnt he. HE wasnt talking about following anyones agya. all enough of this rant. Ill shut up and let you religous folks get all over me with your religous ideas about Maharaji. Thats kind of paradoxical. You guys are the exes but you are obsessed with religous ideas,while I am a premie and am not.

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: The Falcon To: jon diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 00:20:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That is the usual premie pattern here, enter politely and sincerely and swiftly blow their tops when questioned. Don't kid yourself, agya is alive and well, ask any PAM (the name may have changed but the principle has not). In fact it is agya not to read this site, you rebel, you! I was never a 'religious' premie either but don't tell me that there wasn't enormous pressure on any premie who was not a parent to move in the ashram because I witnessed this time and time again in UK, saw marriages dissolved and people shipped all over the country at the drop of a hat. I think you have a very selective memory which has shrunk to fit the revisionist bullshit. In conclusion let me say that we are not that far apart in outlook, merely that I don't look through guru-coloured glasses anymore and I have the courage to say exactly what I have seen without the need to revise history. Maharaji's 'mission'has failed although it will drag on until his death, no doubt, with ever-dwindling numbers of ageing has-beens who remember 'the good old days' when both questions and satasng were allowed. I am not that bothered about him but I do care about sincere souls still wrapped up in his little web and so converse frequently with premie friends who are leaving in droves. All the best The Falcon (thrown out the bathwater but kept the baby)

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: jon diener To: The Falcon Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:11:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey it wasnt that swift. I dialoogued for quite a while before blowing mine. Anyway, I don't deny that there was quite a bit of dysfunction going on in the old days. its just that I don't see Maharaji as responsible for it. I know my ideas of detachment and emotional denial for example were ones I chose to take on after reading the Gita and simply because they appealed to me as good ways to cope with life at the time. That I may have considered this part of KNowledge and Maharaji was my doing not his. But, I think we may not that far apart either. Best to you too.

Subject: Jon, it's clear you have no answer... From: la-ex To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 21:50:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Isn't it? I ask you questions, and you answer none of them. As for agya, when maharaji says 'Never doubt the master. Never doubt the purity of the master'.....isn't he telling you not to doubt him? To blindly accept and not question? When he says 'don't ask me questions', and your silence, rather than an honest questioning, allows the deception that deceives so many to go on and on, don't you feel dishonest and sleazy? Don't you feel unethical for allowing such dishonesty to continue, when you know that so much is hidden from potential new people? Do you see how 'following the master' brings you into the same pile of sleaze that he is in? Are you afraid to question or confront maharaji? BTW, I'm not 'hung up' on any sort of premie religion, and was a regularly practicing premie from 1971-1999. However, you've got religious concepts coming out your ears, and they are quite obvious.... And we would all love to hear about your inside information on maharaji's divine holi power, if you'd care to share....

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: The Falcon To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 08:15:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: call me impatient but would you please respond to my thaks but post below?

Subject: To Jon re Maharaji and power From: Livia To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 04:23:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look, Jon, we all kissed his feet, or most of us did, so no one here's going to have a problem with you admitting you did that. My beef with you is that you seem so sure that your experiences of Knowledge are somehow induced by 'his grace'. You also say he has at least 'one unusual power' connected with the holi celebration. And in other posts you imply he's not the Lord, never was. So how about being more specific? If he's not the Lord but as you suggest, has some special power, can you not bear to consider for one moment that that apparent power is a reflection of the power given to him by those who intensely believe in him? We all know about projection. And some of us know how it feels to be on the receiving end of projection. Most of us have had the experience of someone being madly in love with us. For that time we can do no wrong - they see us as almost perfect.. Unsurprisingly we are affected by their emotions, feelings and projections and feel transformed ourselves as a result. Sometimes we feel as if we are walking on air, such is the power of projection when it is directed at us. Imagine for a second the position of Maharaji. He has been projected on all his life, including by his own mother and brothers when he was little, and all his father's followers when Shri Hans died - thousands upon thousands of them. He then came to the West and was immediately thought to be God on earth by more thousands - Westerners this time. He was surrounded by premies who hung on his every word and spent their lives longing to be near him. Can you imagine this? Can you imagine how this would affect your development as a normal human being with normal desires for women and the things of this world? So as well as trying to fulfil his father's agya, he uses his power to bed women who wouldn't have looked at him twice if they hadn't thought he had divine stautus. And he acquires wealth that he probably wouldn't have come anywhere near if it hadn't been for the fact that the premies thought he was God. And you think that because he seems powerful and because odd things happen around him, that that power necessarily comes from him? Have you read anything of other gurus and the apparent powers they have? Sai Baba? Thousands were totally convinced that Sai Baba was an incarnation of God. (Millions still are, in fact.) They would go to their graves swearing that magical, mystical things happened around him. Now it seems he was a common child abuser and rapist all along and his magical manifestations total foolery. And some of his followers will attempt to rationalise the rape and abuse, such is their need to hang onto their beliefs about him, just as you are doing now with your attempts to rationalise Maharaji's alcohol abuse and exploitation of female devotees. Oh, and lies and denial of what went on in the past. Jon I'm afraid you're in so deep you're in danger of never seeing it, and throwing your life away on faith in a tin god. You needn't give up meditation - a lot of us here haven't. But get real - Maharaji isn't who you think he is, and sadly never was. He has no power other than what his devotees give him, and that is fading away fast. But you're probably just not ready to see it - yet. Livia

Subject: well said, Livia (nt) From: The Falcon To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 08:03:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: thanks but.... From: The falcon To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 02:26:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you didn't really answer the questions. I am pleased that you have had the courage to come here in defiance of agya and want to reassure you that not everyone here is hostile to you, howver, I woiuld like to point out that we have been where you are now but you have not yet been where we are now and from this perspective life is vastly improved, the experience of ' whatever you want to call it' is undiminished, in fact enhanced without a cumbersome belief system of any kind (including scientific)and there is genuine humility (not disussed here-ever) because we know we are not special in the way that Maharaji told us, in fact humility , with the exception of subservience to 'the master', is not a premie trait. we have re-joined the human race. some points re; your response. * everything in Life ia catalyst if we are open. * it is not anathema to explain your experiences or interpretaion of them here (see above-we have been etc.).unusual powewr in Holi? try me!! * what is 'somewhat magical'? * profligacy = willy-nilly spendthrift, it ahs nothing to do with sex unless the money is spent on mistresses and whores. * pray tell of the 'rather large' contribution, and don't say peace because peaceful is not an epithet that can be applied to premies and I do know many! ( Mind you there are the fine examples recently of Deborah and Selene-fabulous creatures that they are, straight out of Shakespeare!!) * I thought you were a class of '72 premie like me and yet you say you only kissed his feet once-sorry I don't believe you although I am interested in learning what is in Maharaji'smind, how did you learn that one? Darshan is not intimate by the way, in fact it is very public. I think he is addicted to worship, great addiction to have but I am unsure of the outcome karmically. So would you do 'it' again, if so, why? kissing someone's feet is a subservient gesture and if you don' believe me I am going to book you a session with a dominatrix friend of mine who will teach you a lesson, you naughty boy. She already has lots of lawyers foe clients. (Down JimBoy!) keep communicating, all the best.

Subject: TYPO ALERT From: The Falcon To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 02:53:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and seem to lack the premie hysteria (is that a new technique?do I need a Knowledge review?)of Deborah and Selene.

Subject: Re: Try again From: The Falcon To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 02:56:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: should read -with your personal experience. please reply as you seem very pleasant and lacking the usual premie hysteria see above TYPO ALERT for you know who.

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: The Falcon To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 14:01:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the breakthrough comes when one knows that any experience has nothing to do with anything outside of one's Self (nothing to do with gurus)

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: PatC To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 12:54:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sandy seemed to disappear soon after seeing through Rawat. When I talk to Chuck and Andy about this stuff they don't comletely understand. Chuck got K-lite from a ''meditation teacher'' and soon afterwards we left premiedom. We watched the occassional video and went to see Rawat now and then and carried on meditating. Chuck never experienced god in M and K and humored me when I used to say that I did. He would put it down to my poetic soul. Andy got K because he saw that Chuck and I enjoyed it but he resented what he called my ''fireworks'' satsang. He never saw Rawat as anything but another preacher man and never could stand him. Both Chuck and Andy are pretty stubborn and just kept doing their thing inspite of the fact that I was a full-blow gopi. They simply tolerated their old hippie Hindu pal. I did see what I thought was god in Rawat and K. I was a darshan addict for the first ten years because of the hit that I got from Rawat. It was only when we finally went back into premiedom two years ago that I began to doubt his godshipness. Watching videos still made me feel great but seeing up close how he ran the cult gave me the creeps. I solved my dilemma about not liking him and still thinking that he was the master by deciding to turn against him EVEN IF he was. I never saw him as the big kahuna, the creator. My Hindu brain at that time did not think like that. I saw all of creation as god and guru as the one who revealed that all of creation (including him and me) is god and therefore he was greater than god. Those first few months of 'defying'' the holiest revealer of god were not easy but I knew that I had to do it as Rawat was so obviously an immoral man. Now I realize that it was all emotions and imagination but I really did see M and K as god for 27 years. Even when I first started reading the dirt on EPO it didn't bother me too much as I figured that Rawat was just a human being who happened to be the torchbearer of the most holy K tradition. What really galled me was that he would act real chummy and ordinary on stage and videos but then run his cult like a dictatorship. I figured that, if we were all god, then democracy was the way things should be run. It was the lack of democracy, openness and accountability which drove me out. Once the loyalty to him is broken then you are free to think about K any way you want. When I first exed I still thought of K as god but I no longer do. It is not easy for true believers to make the break and I hope I don't forget how scary it was and lose my sympathy for the agonies that newbies suffer.

Subject: A good Question From: Brian Smith To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 12:45:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, what about the rest of you? If you've had a really profound experience with K where you've felt, just as promised, that you've beheld the glory of God, how do you reconcile the fact that Maharaji's the guy who gave you the tools to have such an experience? --- This is a very good question, and I have to admit that there were moments where I did have some truly profound meditation experiences. Experiences at that time which I attributed to maharaji, then believing that he was the true incarnate of the lord of the universe. I don't care how the EV Pr people revise this message,(the lord of the universe spin) it was one that was completely perpetrated by the cult which M allowed by his deference to the concept. When asked point blank if he was the lord he would coyly respond ' why don't you ask who told you that why they are saying this about me. A slip and slide non answer, an artful dodger leaving the truth lurking behind the shadows of mind manipulation and the relative experience of some ancient dated meditation techniques. This is where the rubber meets the road and where my confusion, illusion began and my ultimate freedom of it all ended. The meditation techniques will provide the impetus for an experience of self potential, that I have discovered for myself and I have no problem with. It is when they are tied to the emotional enslavement of a master devotee relationship where everything is dependant on the teacher and nothing is credited to the student that the experience breaks down and limits one's potential for self discovery. When I exited, I began to realize more and more my own self discovery process, with no strings attached, no dependant issues on another human being, no emotional ties to a master teacher or false premise. As far as m being the guy to give me the tools, he did not, he says himself that he doesn't take anything out of his pocket. I was on my way with my own tools to fulfill my journey of self discovery long before he came along. He was but one step along the path, a long step that ultimately stiffled my growth as a person of honor and integrity. I compromised many years believing and pertetrating his myth. Now I am free and I am experiencing more than ever quite by myself the fruits of my own self discovery unpolluted by the Rawat Rot.

Subject: Re: A good Question From: Thorin To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 14:57:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A good question - and indeed a remarkable answer Brian - many thanks. Please write lots more and real soon ..... warmly, Thorin

Subject: Re: A good Question From: Brian Smith To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 03:31:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thorin, thanks for the kudo's, and you definately will be hearing more from me in the near future as I recover my strength. I have been a regular and active participant here since my exit early 2001. I have been out of pocket for the past 4 months or so due to critical health issues compounded by serious side effects as a result of the treatment that I was undergoing but have recently discontinued. For me your question of crediting m with providing the tools for the experience provokes an inquiry into the validity of rawats integrity. A matter which I find to be of upmost importance when one allows oneself to be purported as the lord of the universe. My first reality check (or drip) came to me just 6 weeks after recieving knowledge. I was staying in New York getting ready to depart for India in 1972. I was handed a book published circa early 1900, this book graphically illustrated all of the alledged secret meditation techniques that m claimed ownership of. I was amazed because the book actually explained the techniques in much clearer detail than the mahatma I received k from or m ever did in or out of the knowledge session. As a matter of fact there were even a few more techniques covered than we were revealed via the rawat method. As I said the publication was a much more comprehensive and throughly depicted illustration of the meditation techniques we were revealed but without the devotional hooks. Now one would think as the alledged owner of the techniques M, would be the one with the clearer understanding, but the book explained things much better with no strings attached. This was my first drip that something was remiss, or that there was a fly in the ointment. I really should have listened to that still small voice inside that said something is wrong here, there is no mention of a perfect master requirement to experience these, no ownership or lineage to the rawat family. No need to lay down ones life devoted exclusively to a guru, teacher, master, or as it turns out a bhakti guru disciple worship relationship. Instead, I banished the fledgling questions from my mind, and like a good cult member never leaving room for doubt, I boarded the plane for India and simply let myself slip farther into the abyss of robotic devotion. The blind acceptance of the myth regarding m's linage and the comraderie of the cult was a good antidote to the voice of reason and logic that kept dripping away little by little over the years. Then one day I finally awoke to a waterfall of reality rushing through my being cleaning out the corruption of years of ecrusted cult corrosion. These drips are what I have now come to realize as the true 'little drops of mercy'. Had m been forthcoming and upfront with what he was doing which was just passing on a version of eastern philosopy accentuated by a few meditation techniques which may stimulate a response perceived as a spiritual experience, I would be fine with that to this day I think. But no... he rode in on the coat tails of this lord of the universe road show. A role that he has revised and revamped over the years as each incarnation wears thin or is peeled back by those of us who see through the flimsy veneer. This is where I take issue, the man has no integrity, he has no honor and he refuses to accept responsibility for his actions by setting the record straight. He slinks around reverting and rewritting his name revising his image to whatever the traffic will bear re-incorporating his organization. Then he acts as if he is coming clean by feigning responsibility for the previous incarnation and/or organizations activities claims or misdeeds. All the while winking and nodding to the dwindling flock to keep those cards and letters coming into you know who. This guy is so slimy even his own mother disowned him, and that incredible action alone should have been a major drip which I failed to question more vigorously. A mothers love is one of the strongest forces in anyones life and to lose that, particularly at such a young age begs serious questions as to the man's character. I have given up hope on the idea that rawat will ever find the decency to acknowledge his responsibility for the falsehoods and apologize to so many of us whom he lead down the path of his deception. Rawat is throughly corrupted, totaly sold out, completely engrossed in his own dysfuntional greedy grubbing quest for the almighty dollar. I do not expect M to ever change his method of operation, so I did what is best for me and what I alone have the power to do. I changed myself and got out even after buying in heavy for 29 years. Hopefully that may ignite a change where someone else who needs it might see it or hear it and be empowered to do the same.

Subject: Are we synchronized, Brian? From: PatC To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 12:59:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You hit the nail right on the head. How are you? I hope you are doing as well as you sound - pretty feisty.

Subject: Yes ! From: Brian Smith To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 22:58:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am feeling better, thanks Pat. That is since they took me off the Chemo two weeks ago. In short it wasn't working, it was only making me more miserable and weaker, I will privately email you a progress report with a full prognosis. As for being syncronized, only in the commitment to break free and help others get out of the cult if they are willing. I am gradually regaining my strenghth and vitality, I am slowly detoxing that poison treatment out of my system. I look forward to being more present here on F7 as my energy returns. And no, for the record, I am not in any danger of checking out permanently in the near future. I am going to be fine as long as I do not overextend myself, watch my diet, exercise regularly and just basically take care of myself. You have been through a major health challenge yourself and overcame it and I intend to follow your example. Say hi to Chuck and Andy, I will be checking in later with you off the board

Subject: great to see you back, Brian From: Livia To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 15:00:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Brian, It's great to see you back here, and great that you're coming through all the treatment. You're sounding good and very much back on form. Wonderful. While I'm here I just want to say how much I appreciated the kind things you said to me here a few months back - you really helped me through a difficult patch with it all. Love to you and wishing you a most speedy recovery. Livia XX

Subject: Thanks Livia From: Brian Smith To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 21:10:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is good to be back and feeling better, I hope that I continue to improve healthwise. I have greatly appreciated your contributions here as well over the past few months. I checked in regularly but just did not not have the energy or stamina to write or even think clearly. The horrible treatment they had me on (Interfon/Ribivirin) turned me an mental basket case riding this incredible roller coaster of emotions. I am just starting to emerge from the shadows and feel human once again. Thanks for your kind thoughts too Love Brian

Subject: Absolutely fabulous From: PatC To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:22:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was worried about the chemo right from the start but did not want to dampen your hopes so I said nothing. Hope and determination are essential. It's what pulled me back after ''dying'' in surgery and near total organ failure from septic shock when everyone else thought I was going to die. Yes, please fill me in by email. Lots of love to you.

Subject: Good God! From: Gregg To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 12:29:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jerry. Speaking as an ex-premie, my short answer to this would be that Maharaji was NOT the guy who gave me the tools to have such an experience. My belief at the time that he WAS the architect of my spiritual experiences, combined with my overactive imagination and suggestiblity OR my mystical sensitivity (your choice) contributed to the visions and tremors and whatnot I experienced ocaasionally during my few years as a Lover of God/Guru. Even in the early days, though, as a premie, I heard some things about M that didn't jibe with even a very loosey-goosey formulation about how an Enlightened One would act. And believe me, to be as powerful as he said he was (and even a run-of-the-mill guru had to - at the very least - not be a pathological liar), an Enlightened One he must be, not just a 'meditation teacher.' For a smart guy, I sure was dumb about this, though. I used the same old rationalizations to keep my Mind at bay...the ways of the Lord are inscrutable to mere mortals such as myself, it's all a game, the truth lies beyond appearences, etc. etc. The simple truth that my Guru was a fraud (whether well-intentioned or not can be debated)was a thought to be squelched at all costs. After all, I had 'the Experience,' didn't I? That is the ultimate fallback justification, the one my single remaining premie friend gave to me when I gently doubted the Purity of the Master. 'Can you deny the power of the Word?' she said. Well...it's not quite so simple, premie ji. Truth is truth...you must eat it whole.

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: AV To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 10:10:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: SHP????? a name would be nice, then i'll tell my secrets

Subject: SHP = Sanford Pass [nt] From: Jim To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 12:11:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Come on, Jim From: Jerry To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 12:25:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like AV knows a Sanford Pass from an SHP. If he didn't know who SHP was to begin with after all the time he's spent posting here, what difference would it make if a name was suddenly attached to his initials? Who's 'AV' to talk about names, anyway? I wonder if he isn't just trying to be funny.

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: Jerry To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 11:14:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't follow, AV. Is that your real name, BTW?

Subject: Hi Guys.... (Mostly OT) From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 17:33:55 (PDT) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: Hi friends, Just got back to sunny California after 3 weeks in the soggy but lovely British Isles and popped in after my extended and continuing absence to say hello to everyone. At the end of our trip, my partner Kevin and I met with Joy, Thorin and another ex-premie in London Friday night for a last-minute 'mini-Latvian' event over Indian food and Carlsbergs. A grand time was had by all. We mostly laughed hysterically about our premie careers and the ridiculous crap we believed, and even Kevin had a good time, despite never having received the holy knowledge, nor ever kissing the lotus feet. Thorin convinced me that I should post something about our trip and I must say it was splendid. Not once during the entire trip did I see any evidence whatsoever that anybody but a few thousand dwindling, aging, cult hangers-on from the hippie era have any interest in the former Lord of the Universe. But I saw plenty of evidence that ordinary people are fascinating, open, and are expressing more humanity than I usually ever saw among premies, most of whom would step on your face if it meant an opportunity to get closer to the lotus toes. We also got the chance to see both England and Ireland electrified by World Cup football games most Americans, me included, cannot even understand. It is ironic, because the USA team was/is apparently doing well but most Americans have no idea the event is even happening. We arrived in Cork to ghostly empty streets whilst Ireland was scoring against Cameroon, only to see people pour into the streets in a sea of green and Irish flags after the game was over. We watched England beat Argentina in a pub in a tiny village on the coast of the Dingle Peninsula. While the Irish were not openly cheering for Argentina, I got the distinct impression they wouldn't have minded if England had lost. [That prick Cromwell really fucked Ireland and I guess the Irish haven't completely forgotten about all that, even though it was a long time ago.] Kevin and I, both of English/Irish ancestry, were rooting for both England and Ireland, but kept discreetly quiet there. We watched a room explode with screams in a pub in Ballydavid when Ireland tied Germany, and in a gay pub in Gallway (yes there are some there and this one was full of men, women and kids) we yelled with everyone there when Ireland went 3 nil against Saudi Arabia. Must say though, Gallway became a bit of a drunken mass later that day. We couldn't think of any event, except perhaps a tragic one, that has any similar uniting effect in the United States. It was fun to be a part of it over there. For anyone interested, the itinerary was: 1. The 18th Century frozen. Bath -- my favorite city in England (Roman baths, the Royal Crescent, Paladian architecture); 2. The English magical mystical/ ecclesiastical/Cathedral tour -- Stonehenge, Avebury, Wells, Salisbury, Glastonbery, etc.; 3. Death by Quaint: The Cottswolds (Stow-On-Wold, Snowshill, Broadway, Chipping Campden, and the super-sweet clotted cream fudge); 4. The Wild Wales Tour: The Elan Valley (with the most incredibly beautiful Victorian dams you ever saw), the Beacon Brecons, St. Davids, Tenby and Pembrokeshire staying on an organic farm, and the overnight ferry/party from Swansea to Cork; 5. The core of our trip was a 6-day, 100-mile hike around the Dingle Peninsula in Ireland. Spectacular does not describe it. Trekking through ancient stone habitations, walls, sheep, ogham stones, circle forts, Guiness, the musical sounds of Gaelic, and music, Guiness, music, Guiness, music. Yeah, we were tired by the end, but it was incredible and I would recommend this to anyone. And it is absolutely true the Guiness tastes great in Ireland and awful everywhere else. 6. The final week was the West of Ireland, music, Guiness, Irish crosses, Guiness, on to Dublin, James Joyce, the 'tart with a cart,' music, Doolin, and our delight in finding a California-style organic, vegetarian restaurant, and occasionally a really strong American-type cup of coffee, but, thank God, there are no Starbucks in Ireland. And we ended with the mini-Latvian back in London with my old friend Joy and two other exes before returning home. Anyhow, it's great to see EPO and the Forum going strong, and to see such smart, articulate and thoughtful people continuing to participate here. I'll be disappearing from here again, but I'm sure I'll be back eventually at least just to check in. Here's wishing the best to all of you. Please feel free to email me, and if any of you are ever in the Bay Area, please let me know. Joe [Who is a little sad because I heard Ireland lost to Spain in one of those strange 'sudden death kick' thingys, which somehow does not seem very fair.]

Subject: Aw bugger From: hamzen To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 22:59:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Would have been really good ta meet ya. Sounds like you had a wicked trip though Re the world cup, never a truer word, one day you yanks will realize it's all one world and you'll join the rest of us, and realize it's not all about winning befgore getting involved

Subject: Not about winning? From: Joe To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:36:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Ham, I would have liked to meet you too. Maybe next time. If the world cup really isn't about 'winning,' you might tell the populations of England and Ireland about that. From what I could tell during my visit, they seemed to think winning, for the teams from their respective countries, was 'all' it was about, or at least at the very top of the list. :) Everyone did seem to be good-natured about it, though. Also, note that despite the admittedly aggressive nature of American football, I don't recall I have ever heard of American football spectators killing each other in the stands, unlike what sometimes occurs in your part of the world. :) But like I said below, I think part of the reason soccer isn't a bigger deal over here is that it's harder, if not impossible, to fit in television commercials in a game which has no time outs. If there were money to be made on it, we probably would be getting it on network TV. Also, if the American networks reactions to the Olympics are any guide, which constantly inform us how many more medals the US is winning than anybody else, I'd actually be a little concerned about what might happen if it became a matter of national pride that an American team do well (win) in the World Cup. Perhaps we, and the world cup, might be better off if Americans just be concerned about whether New York or San Francisco is heading to the Superbowl. Just some thoughts.

Subject: Re: Hi Guys.... (Mostly OT) From: Thorin To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 08:27:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: See Joe, didn't I say that writing that stuff was going to feel good. It sure read good! :) Hope the flight went well? It was great putting a face to the voice - and what a gruff voice you have eh? (joke!). And meeting up with Joy and Kevin was a real ....um ... joy. I really liked the way Kevin went out of his way of not only understanding, to him what were, total strangers but also responding to that in such a thoughtful manner. Joy's disarming candour about things was very refreshing. Thanks for prompting that meeting. Now, what with your great writing skills and fresh journey material, you should go on and write up a Tourist Guide to Offtrack European Sites. Go on! - I am sure it will get into the top10. cheers, Thorin

Subject: Thanks Thorin From: Joe To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:21:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thorin, Yes, it did feel kind of good to sum up the vacay. It was also great meeting you. You looked almost exactly as I thought you would. The flight home was fine, but flying West makes for a very long day. Yes, both Joy and Kevin are sweethearts. (I think I will keep both of them.) :) I don't know about travel writing, but it does seem like a good job, doesn't it? Thanks again. It was great seeing you on Friday and thanks also for that other excellent help you provided a few months ago. All the best, Joe

Subject: Hi Joe (OT) From: Cynthia To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 07:55:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm glad to hear you had such a great vacation--it sounded fantastic. I miss you here...pop in from time to time:) Love, Cynthia

Subject: Hi Cynthia... From: Joe To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:22:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks. I always enjoyed your sincere and thoughtful posts. I might pop in, but probably not for awhile. Take care, Joe

Subject: Hi Joe. (ot) From: AJW To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 07:46:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Joe, Sorry I missed you on your hop over the pond. Sounds like you had a good time. I was in London at the weekend, very briefly, to see a Daniel Johnson gig. Do you know his stuff? Something that surprises us over here is the lack of attention you're giving to your football team in the World Cup. They are doing exceptionally well, and have made it through to the quarter finals. The whole world is applauding them, (football is the 'World Sport'), but nobody in the States seems to be taking much notice. Friday morning, Britain will be at a total standstill during the match against Brazil- and I'm sure Brazil will be the same. All workplaces, schools etc make arrangements for everyone to either come in late, or come in early and watch the match on the premises. Oh yeah, Cromwell persecuted Catholics everywhere in Britain, not just in Ireland. British and Irish history is an inseperable blend of religion and nationalism. There have been times, for example, when the Irish republicans have fought alongside the Ulster protestants against an English Catholic king- two causes with a common enemy. Anyway, enough blibber blabber Anth half-Irish historian, raconteur, wit, and bullshitter.

Subject: Hi Anth From: Joe To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:31:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anth, Too bad we didn't get to see you in London. Yes, the football enthusiasm over there, and the almost total lack of it over here is very interesting. I heard some discussion about how Americans tend to be interested in sports that originated here, and soccer is truly an international sport. I'm not quite sure why that is. Also many, many kids play soccer in the USA (just about all my neices and nephews play on teams with leagues, etc.), but by the time they get to college the vast majority switch to baseball, basketball or American football, because that's what is most popular here, and where the money is. Plus, I have a sneaking suspicion that the way soccer is played, without time outs allowing for commercials, that there wouldn't be the money in it, because there is no room for commericals, which drives the sports industry here, and hence not as much commerical interest. Just a theory. Yes, for being in power for such a short period, Cromwell was sure responsible for an immense amount of destruction in both Britain and Ireland. For destroying the glorious stained glass in the Charter House in Wells Cathetral alone, he should be condemned to eternal damnation. :) To the Irish, Henry VIII was bad, but Cromwell was so much worse. All the best, Joe

Subject: Re: Hi Guys.... (Mostly OT) From: bill To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 00:25:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Joe, great to read about your travels ! While you were gone, the Judi Bari case, she was injured in a govt car bombing, she was with Earth First, her estate and the other injured person were awarded either 2& or 4& million and the AP story that came east completely dissed her and covered up the story. It is quite amazing how much the media spins us. My readings of macro finance have led me to those that make the case that the desert storm war was about 2 basic issues, defanging iraq, and killing off the Yen and its huge threat to america and europe financial power. I had heard way back when about the diplomatic meeting that led to saddam thinking the us was saying they would not get involved in 'local' issues, it was a wink and nod to saddam to go ahead and he claims to this day that the meeting was an american trick. The oil price hike hit Japan hard, and combined with yen selling by the west, and bad advice from the west, toppled the mighty power the yen had at the time. The land value of tokyo alone was as much as all california. The japs could have bought the world if they had been smarter. The japanese were of course billed 20 billion for the war, and so was the saudis and even the hapless kuwaities. Many in the middle east now think that desert storm was a geopolitical trick and they may indeed be right. The Japs are in a real fix now and have no real options but to support the supremecy of the dollar. The euro boys also support the dollar as it is in thier interest for numerous reasons. You are interested in political issues, I think the fundamental driver of american actions is doing whatever it takes to keep the dollar as the reserve currency of the world, at this time, the primary aim of the fed is keeping real estate prices in a state of inflation, they hope steadily, and interest rates will go down if needed for that, and 30 year mortgages will change to 100 years when and if that will help. Derivitives and off shore (but acually located in New Jersey) dealings are allowing massive losses to not be accounted for until...well, perhaps never, and as long as the world will accept our debt for thier products, the credit machine will keep creating debt to sell. In the effort to have a global economy as designed by, well, in the tightest nutshell, power and money hungry men, the haves are frankly at this point winging it in uncharted financial waters at the macro level and the twin threats of sabatoge by kooks, and by the bigger threat of the world tiring of selling america products while buying our debt in return. The global economy has been built so america centric that any real downturn in our credit creation capacity will cause tremendous upheavel and dramatic bad problems for billions depending on the present system. It is really that precarious. The level of slight of hand that the central bankers are using right now is completely unprecedented and the rules of 1990 and before are just flat out different now. There is massive spin in this area, and, may they succeed, but greenspan is trapped, they have bet the ranch, if inflation starts to take off, he cant use the interest rate hikes to kill it because the credit markets couldnt take it now with the new design. He alluded to the dillema recently quite frankly but obliquely at the last central bankers meeting. Inflation could topple the confidence in the fiat currency (among other threats like I mentioned above) and then he (wish I had the quote here) but he admitted it would be a very big problem. Heck of a time to live ! What a show this is. But you know, the way the corporations are going, disaster tho it would be, maybe the future mapped out by the WTO and the IMF really should not manifest as the kingdom come on earth. Nothing short of collapse would stop it, and I can see 3 threats that are looming that could take it down. Without slight of hand and derivitives and central bank dollar swaps, and the mighty credit creation machine and other financial manuverings, the twin towers would have brought down the show all by themselves. To me the wildest show on earth is watching the central bankers and the credit market mechanisms fudging and patching and inventing new measures to keep the game working. It is a confidence game. Take some time to think about what if's.

Subject: Judi Bari/Darryl Cherney From: Joe To: bill Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:40:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bill, Yes, the verdict against the FBI and the Oakland police was terrific. $4.5 million should make people notice. The jury was deliberating when I left for Europe and I didn't find out the result until I got home Saturday. Judi Bari (whom I actually got to meet once) was a truly amazing person. It's sad that she died of cancer before the trial was completed. But she actually gave testimony in the trial via videotape made before she passed away. Daryl Cherney, however is still around. [As an aside, only one FBI agent was acquitted and that agent was represented by, guess who, my firm, which only represents truly innocent people:)] All the best Bill, Joe

Subject: Re: Hi Guys.... From: Richard To: Joe Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 22:32:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Welcome back, Joe. Sounds like a truly wondeful and memorable trip. Makes me recall why I loved my trip to England and Scotland in '87 and makes me want to go again. As you say, there are smart, articulate and thoughtful people continuing to participate here but your astute and insightful posts are definitely missed. Don't be a starnger. Richard, FOJ (friend of Joy)

Subject: Helloooo Richard From: Joe To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:44:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, We didn't make it to Scotland this trip, but maybe the next one. Thanks for your nice comments, and I'm sure I'll be around some time in the future. I'm hoping people will email me if anything 'big' happens. Joe (Also a FOJ, and also a 'FOD' (Friend of Dorothy) or is that also 'FOJ?' (Friend of Judy? :) )

Subject: Welcome home! From: Marianne To: Joe Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 18:14:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's a big hug! So glad you and Kevin had such a great time. Your description of Dingle makes me miss Ireland! Talk to you soon. Much love, Marianne

Subject: Hugs to you too From: Joe To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:46:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought about you when we were in Cork. I already miss Ireland, too. One of my favorite places in the world, to be sure. We came back with a huge cache of CDs from the Doolin area. We've been listening to them ever since.

Subject: Glad you made it back safe & sound From: Joy To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:24:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was, as the Irish might say, great gas to meet up with you and Kevin over here! And meeting up with Thorin was also truly memorable, he's a wonderful guy folks, and the 'other ex-premie' who shall remain anonymous was also great fun to see as well, it having been at least 22 years since I last saw him. To me, one of the down-sides of being an ex and never attending programs is not getting to see people you weren't particularly close to and so haven't kept in touch with, but still have fondness for. It's sad not being able to see a lot of the premies ever again (but a small price to pay for getting M out of my life for good). So this felt like a little bonus. Your descriptions of England and Ireland makes me miss it too, and hell, I'm still here! As Marianne says, glad you had such a good time, it was great to see you in such great form, and I guess all I have left to say is 'GO USA' (and also Go England!). Love, Joy

Subject: Hey Joy From: Joe To: Joy Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 14:10:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, we made it back safe, but how 'sound' we are others will have to judge. :) Maybe USA v. England in the final? No way. I'm sure Brazil will be in that one! Joe

Subject: Rev. Rawat's sermon in Portland, 1977 From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 14:06:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For some reason or another the ‘Mission’ felt able to publish tapes of various co-ordinator meetings where Maharaji supposedly let his hair down and told it how it is. Buried amongst a ton of other stuff I found this gem that took place in Portland sometime during 1977. By the grace of modern science this is now up online. (well half for now – the rest later). For once the audio quality is good. Hmmm I wonder why there was no copy write message on the tape? From listening to these MP3 files you will readily see why the Mission asked (pleaded) for this stuff to be either returned or destroyed. Some notes I took whilst listening to this historical artefact. - As expected the general tone of the meeting was generally friendly with various episodes of laughter, interspersed with embarrassed silences when M turns on his full SatGuru powers – whatever that may be. - M states quite clearly that the ashram is the background of the community - Service is surrender, we are the servants of the Lord, we should not chit-chat, we should lead a life of service, satsang and meditation - If we are properly surrendered we should allow ourselves to be dictated by GMJ - In time we will truly understand the true nature of "Arti". - Time is running out, the purpose is to surrender to GMJ, to obey his agya, we need to shake this world - Heaven starts after receiving Knowledge, Hell exists before receiving Knowledge. Knowledge is God - In answer to a question from a co-ordinator who is married with children, Maharaji says that married people are a “burden”, we have to be missionaries, and if we are a burden we should “step aside”. - Money raised is for God’s purpose, it is for Guru Maharaj Ji’s purpose - In answer to a request for clarification on previous closure of an ashram Maharaji strikes back real fast “Obey Guru Maharaji Ji’s Agya!” The tape also includes M joking about Mike Dettmers (about Mike’s claim that if you jumped up high enough you could travel whilst the earth moves down below!), the voice of Barbara Kalodny (sp?) recounting her travels “on the road” as well as Premlata playing around with the mike. Anyway well worth the download, part of the history of the mission – the history that Maharaji has tried to bury. Hopefully the rest of the tape will go up shortly. Oh, and by the way, the full Mishler tape in MP3 form is also up - previously only part of it. Can be found here: http://www.ex-premie2.org/download/Mishler/ Thorin, the archivist ..... Portland Audio Files www.ex-premie2.org/download/portland_1977/

Subject: The context of 1977 From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 15:51:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for putting this up, Thorin - I haven't listened to it yet but your quotes from it are very interesting in the context of its time - 1977. 1974-1976 was the time around and after Maharaji's marriage, when all the premies started falling in love with each other and moving out of the ashram. It was quite a 'spacey' time, especially from summer 74 onwards, after Copenhagen (for us Europeans). Suddenly in 1977 Maharaji appeared to pull the reins in again, although this time the emphasis was much more on surrender. Before, it had been mainly on meditation and realising Knowledge. Apparently the context was that he was worried about the drying up of donations after his marriage. Mishler was trying to persuade him to come clean that he wasn't the Lord, but he was against it, apparently fearing that the donations would dry up even more if he did this. Hence the sudden emphasis on surrender and the need to move into the ashram. Ashram premies bring money in of course! I remember that time as rather dark; the joy seemed to disappear and was replaced by a sort of heaviness as Maharaji urged us over and over again to dedicate our lives, with the thinly veiled threat of dire consequences if we didn't. The flavour of the linked audio will probably make a lot more sense if one listens to it fully aware of the context of 1977... Love, Livia

Subject: Re: The context of 1977 From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 16:22:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember that too ,I think it was at Miami he once again 'offered the gift of devotion '

Subject: Thanks, Thorin. [nt] From: PatC To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 02:46:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The actual Date From: Brian Smith To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 23:38:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: something is eating my posts From: Brian Smith To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 00:15:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Something ate my above post Ocrober 11th 1977, it was my birthday, I attended the event and I managed to convince myself that Rawat came just for me as a divine personal lila for my very own special occasion. I blocked the fact that there were several hundred others there who factored in their own illusions for the same purpose. I was under the ether of the cult and the spell of Rawat back then and I could mold the circumstances to fit the story and support the illusion's and fantasy's perpetrated by both influences. Brian... who ultimately realized that in the case of rawat and the cult, ignorance is bliss, truth is just truth and it only hurts when one hangs onto ignorance

Subject: October 11th 1977 From: Brian Smith To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 00:10:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Great work! Clear as a bell From: Jim To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 16:37:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Thorin, I'm just now hearing the last bit which I tried to play for Laurie but she's fallen asleep. Don't worry, though, I keep waking her up for the good parts. My favorite bit is where he suggests that disgruntled, or 'confused', premies get together with initiators and just vent as there couldn't be any substance to any of their concerns and once they start talking they'll realize that too. Well what a difference a few decades makes! Now the tables are turned and Maharaji couldn't -- and won't -- ever dare inviting such questions or criticisms. How could he? He's overwhelmed with unanswerable facts and he knows it. He's running scared in a way we wouldn't have dreamt of back then. Thanks much, Thorin. How'd you get the sound so clear?

Subject: Re: Great work! Clear as a bell From: Thorin To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 06:19:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, you asked, How'd you get the sound so clear? Original tape was in relatively good condition. Beyond that use of Cool Edit Pro with noise reduction, Sound Forge and NxtEncode. Hey maybe Visions would like to employ me for their archive project - my rates will be ...... competitive! Reduced rates if they allow me to take copies of their stuff. I bet the security at the archive project is tighter than Fort Knox - just in case there are PWK wavereres there. Just wait till you hear side B of Portland, more gems. Will upload soonish - just waiting for webspace space. Wonder if some brave person wants to transcribe this stuff?

Subject: Rev Rawat's sermon in Pasadena? From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 10:53:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1: If God is perfect, He is always at peace and cannot become angry or upset at anyone or anything because only an imperfect being can be disturbed in these ways. Likewise, if God is perfect, He doesn’t need or want anything from anyone since if He did need or want anything, He would not be God but an unhappy and imperfect being. 2: Death is nothing to us; once the body and brain decompose into dust and ashes, there is no feeling or thought, and what has no feeling or thought is nothing to us. 3: This is the height of pleasure: to be free of all pain and discomfort in both the body and the mind. When this pleasure is present, all pain, of both body and mind, is absent. 4: Illnesses which cause excruciating pain last only a short time and then you are free. Illnesses which cause mild pain may last long but it is possible to live in such a way that the pleasures of life far outweigh the discomforts. Either way, pain is nothing to fear. 5: It is impossible to be happy without also being wise, honorable and honest, and it is impossible to be wise, honorable and honest without also being happy. Happiness is so dependent upon the practice of wisdom, honor and honesty that being negligent in just one of these will lead to nothing but trouble and sorrow in life. 6: Absolutely anything which will keep you from being harmed by people is good and right. 7: Some men and women want to be famous and well-known because they think that this will make their lives safe and secure. If fame brings safety and security, it is good and right to want to be famous; but if a famous life brings more trouble than an obscure life, it is foolish to want what is actually bad for us. 8: There is no such thing as a pleasure that is bad in and of itself. What is bad are the unpleasant consequences that can result if you do not use your head when deciding on which pleasures to pursue and which to avoid. 9: If every pleasure lasted and affected the entire body and not just one or two parts, there would be no difference between one pleasure or another; they would all be equally desirable. 10: If the things which bring pleasure to licentious men and women freed them from troubled minds, that is, if such a life freed them from the fear of God, the fear of death and the fear of pain, and if those things further taught them how to rationally manage their desires, we would find no wrong with these men and women; they would have reached the height of pleasure and would be free of all bodily and mental pain, which is the beginning and the end of all evil. 11: If our peace of mind were not disturbed by superstitious ideas about comets, falling stars and other types of astronomical phenomenon, or by the thought of death (which is really nothing to us), and also by our lack of understanding of the limits of pain and how to rationally manage our desires, we wouldn’t have any need to acquire a thoroughly scientific understanding of nature. 12: An individual cannot be free from the most disturbing fears about the universe as long as he lacks a thoroughly scientific understanding of nature and instead believes in legends, parables and myths. So without a thoroughly scientific understanding of nature, one cannot reach the height of pleasure. 13: There is no point in working hard to achieve physical safety and security from those who can harm you if your peace of mind can be easily attacked and destroyed by fears and anxieties that result from an unscientific understanding of why nature works as it does in the sky, in the earth, or anywhere else in the universe. 14: While some safety and security from others might possibly be obtained if you were to amass great wealth and power, safety, security and tranquility would more certainly be yours if you simply lived a quiet and simple life withdrawn from the world. 15: Understand that true wealth is having what you really need for a happy life and you will find out how easy it is to be completely satisfied; mistakenly believe that wealth consists in possessing all that one could possibly imagine and dream up and there will never be an end to your toil and sweat. 16: By continuously managing the most important matters of life according to the dictates of reason, the wise man or woman constructs a lifelong defense against misfortunes and troubles and seldom suffers from them. 17: The honest individual has more peace of mind than anyone; it’s the dishonest man or woman who always has some reason to worry and feel anxious. 18: As soon as the height of physical pleasure has been reached by the satisfaction of bodily craving, there is no greater pleasure beyond that to be enjoyed; one has reached a plateau that cannot be surmounted. At that point, one can vary the type of pleasure; one cannot increase the intensity. Mental pleasure also has a natural limit which cannot be surpassed and it is this: the peace of mind that results from the rational understanding and pursuit of pleasure and a thoroughly scientific understanding of those things which used to fill the mind with fear and trembling. 19: An immortal life would not provide an opportunity for any more pleasure than this mortal life does. A rational understanding of happiness makes clear the fact that the height of pleasure is attainable here and now, in this life, and it cannot be surpassed, even if one could live forever. 20: If there were no natural limit to pleasure, it would take an eternity to satisfy the infinite number of desires and wants that one could imagine and dream up. The mind, however, is able to discover the natural limit and height of pleasure; it is also capable of freeing us from all fears of any life after death so that we do not need, want nor fear eternity. Therefore, even if the time has come for us to depart from life, we can approach our final rest with the absolute confidence that we have enjoyed all of the pleasure that it was possible to enjoy. 21: The individual who learns what the natural limits of pleasure are knows how very little is actually required to satisfy his or her needs and have a happy life and how easy it is to obtain it. Therefore, it is unnecessary to spend one’s life struggling and slaving away. 22: In all decision making, the criterion should be the ultimate goal of life which we have set before us and the no nonsense facts of what we actually know and experience (rather than what others wildly imagine): if you stray from this rule, you will be overwhelmed with doubt and confusion. 23: If you deny or dismiss all of the no nonsense facts of what we actually know and experience, there will be nothing left to serve as a criterion for judging anything, even those views which you state must be false. 24: Absolute confidence in determining what is true and what is delusional is only possible if you learn to clearly distinguish between those ideas which are based upon the no nonsense facts of what we actually know and experience and those ideas which have their origin in the imagination and nothing more. In other words, if you give the same authority to the imagination and your inner feelings that you give to the no nonsense facts of what we actually know and experience, you will never be completely sure about anything, as there will no longer be any criterion left to remove your doubt and confusion. 25: If you do not keep the ultimate goal clearly in mind whenever you must decide whether to pursue or avoid a particular pleasure or pain, but decide according to some less well thought out criterion, your behavior will not be consistent with your principles. Of course that's not Rawat's sermon. It's THE PRINCIPAL DOCTRINES OF EPICURUS (341-270 BC.) Rev Rawat probably talked about himself and his toys and reminded everyone to breathe as usual. The premies probably left feeling nicer than they did when they went in but the feeling will soon wear off and they will be left with nothing much else to go on except yearning for the next time they see Rev Rawat. Meanwhile people are still learning something useful and wise from Epicurus who lived 2,300 years ago.

Subject: Thanks, Pat From: Carl To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:39:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This sort of well-reasoned, rational and practical philosophy always has appealed to me. Also, Marcus Aurelius and other Stoics; there was a Cleanthes, and much later, Plotinus (Swiss?), (not to mention Lao Tzu and also some of the Upanishad writers . . . lot's of food for thought and deep reflection). Thanks for posting all that. No wonder the current premies are starving for some real substance. They're being fed a steady diet of cotton candy concepts. So sad.

Subject: Smells kinda funny, Pat From: Gregg To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 19:23:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, PatC, I had my suspicions that this didn't have the telltale odor of Rawatism halfway through #1, but #5 was the clincher: he talked about wisdom, honor and honesty being necessary to happiness. When, as any good premie knows, receiving the Gift of Knowledge and practicing secret devotion to the Living Lord are the only things one needs to be happy. Wisdom is pretentious, honor is a myth, and honesty...well, things change, don't they, and words are meaningless, really, so... Anyway, this Epicurus guy...he's not on the Perfect Master list along with Kabir and Jesus, is he? I thought not.

Subject: Re: Rev Rawat's sermon in Pasadena? From: PatD To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 12:51:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes,I was just starting to get around to disentangling myself from Catholic cultural antagonism towards the likes of Epicurus(& Marcus Aurelius)when along came the blockbuster godball of them all saying, 'can all that stuff,what you really need is an exctasy cult with its roots in the old stone age.....& I'm your man'. Like a fool I fell for it,but I wouldn't've continued for so long if there hadn't been a criminal conspiracy around the greater than god to keep the facts of what was really going on from the hoi polloi. Must go now to bathe the children ready for school in the morning & then cook something really tasty.

Subject: Devoted for life...and beyond From: Bart To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 09:28:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Am sure most premies are devoted to lard for life and would be more than willing to follow him where ever he may be even in the after life. Back on Forum V someone said there's a special place in hell for a guy playing god and deluding people out of pure greed. Most premies would be glad to follow their degenerate master straight to hell. And like someone said down in a tread below, for certain premies that's just what they deserve. I remember seeing a movie a long time ago where a cult leader was in jail and his followers were still cheering him on. Cult mind fuck runs pretty deep. Here's a comment about the LG forum, I read a post here yesterday that said they delete anything that is not 'positive', it's like put on a happy face no matter what, true sales man talk. And premies do have something to sell, that their knowledge has made them so happy, superior and fulfilled, truly above everyone else. Yeah right.

Subject: a link for aspirants and K-lites [nt] From: anon To: Bart Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 14:00:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: http://www.ex-premie.org/best/pathalley3.htm http://www.ex-premie.org/best/pathalley3.htm www.ex-premie.org/best/pathalley3.htm

Subject: Put on a happy face :) From: PatC To: Bart Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 10:40:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Too true Bart. Of course that time of passing on is fast approaching for many premies most of whom are now 50 something and fast succumbing to the ravages of time. Here's Carlos' account (on LG) of his attendance at the Pasadena event this morning: Earlier today I got to enjoy the event. From the 18th row, in the most central block of seats, an almost perfect location! And I did nothing to get a good seat other than be one of the ones who registered on-line within an hour of the 'window' opening. The security measures were not onerous, and I had a bag with me (containing items I might need due to one of my health problems). M was sweet and funny by turns. I had a little trouble with my attention going all over the place at first; I was overtired from not getting home till after 3 AM the noght before. But his inspiration soon lifted me up, and when the event was over I left with one of the strongest reactions to being in his presense I've ever known. I waso gone that I found and spaced out 3 rides before I hooked up with some guys from San Diego who dropped me off at home in Orange County (a medicine I use to help control the symptoms of 1 of my health problems has a side effect that affects my vision badly enough I am unable, for now, to renew my driver's license. Hence no car; rides or public transit).

Subject: Statistics From: Douglas H. To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 02:55:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi. I received Knowledge back in 1986, and have in fact had very little to do with the world of premies since. I still practice the four techniques, however, and might watch a borrowed video a couple of times a year on average. I've never been a highly sociable person, and certainly not in the spiritual sense. I happened on ex-premie.org quite recently, quite by accident, and was intrigued by some of its revelations. I subsequently got into peoples' journeys, and did a bit more research on White Pages. As I have a statistics-based degree, certain facts were immediately evident to me. The first was that, of the circa 160 people listed, roughly 95% (possibly more) received Knowledge in the years before 1980. Those who received it later numbered maybe 10 at most, and were practically all from the early 80's. The second was the quite disproportionate ratio of former ashram premies to non-ashram premies. As Knowledge has been available in the west for almost exactly 30 years now, I would ask myself, therefore, whether the cross section of views and experiences contained on this web-site are typical of the generality of recipients of K over this period. Because of the seemingly disproportionate number of ex-ashram premies, I would also wonder whether they are representative of the majority of people who received K in the 1970's. As far as I can gather, persons receiving Knowledge these days do not have to accept Maharaji as anything other than a teacher and inspiration in their practice, which was virtually the same as in my day. Indeed, I have found that I benefit from a regular practice, without much reference to Maharaji or EV whatsoever. Is it not possible that a great deal of people are in fact doing likewise? Respectfully, Douglas Henderson

Subject: Re: Statistics From: AJW To: Douglas H. Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 08:08:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Douglas, Statistics can be interpreted in many contradictory ways. Out of all the people who joined the Rawat's cult, in the UK, about 40,000, less than 4000 of them show up to see him when he appears in the country. When I attented cult events, I used to estimate the attendance myself, by counting blocks of seats- and the fact is, attendances and membership of the organisation has been declining for many years. This decline has been constant, since Rawat first started his cult, but numbers of people leaving, for certain periods, were replaced more quickly, so overall membership rose for a while. This is no longer the case. OK, let's look at the preponderance of 'old timers', like myself, who have told their tales on EPO. I'd guess most people quit pretty soon after the initiation ceremony. Nobody knew them, so they weren't really missed. This has been the case since the 70s. People who join and leave quickly nowadays, as then, quite simply, don't have much to write about, 'Er...my friend took me to a couple of videos, then this woman poked me in the eyes and told me to do it every day, but it was just a waste of time.' Who wants to write, or read stuff like that? People with most motivation are indeed old-time cult members. We wasted a lot of time and energy. But you may not be aware, that Rawat surrounds himself predominantley with old-timers. I know lots of them personally, and they are all quite devoted to Rawat as a 'Perfect Master'. Are you aware that many people see Rawat in this way Douglas? Have you, for example, ever been through a 'Darshan line' to make a donation and kiss Rawat's feet? And Douglas, what's your view of Rawat. You don't seem to have told us your personal thoughts on the man? Do you believe he is the 'Living Perfect Master', like Jesus? Or do you believe he's just a 'teacher', like when you go for piano lessons? If so, do you treat him like one? Anth the old-timer- 'Ah but I was so much older then...'

Subject: Re: Statistics From: Livia To: Douglas H. Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 04:48:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can see what you're trying to say. However, there's a big problem here that you either haven't recognised or haven't acknowledged. Those of us who received Knowledge in the early days, i.e. pre 1983, were led to believe that Maharaji was no less than the Lord incarnate. If you find this hard to believe, read the many direct quotations on EPO to that effect. Speaking from my own personal experience, I recall sitting in front of Maharaji on many occasions as we sang 'The Lord of the universe has come to us this day' as he beamed back at us approvingly. He donned a 'Krishna' costume and danced before us on more occasions than I can remember. (Krishna was an incarnation of God in Hindu mythology.) He said that the perfect master was a manifestation of God in human form and then said 'and as a matter of fact I am perfect master.' No one who was there would have thought for an instant that Maharaji took that role reluctantly. He seemed to relish it and would sit for hours after programmes as we all filed past to kiss his feet. He blew a breath at us called 'holy breath'. If you have any doubt about any of this, read EPO. Now he implies that he never was any of that, and that the very idea was inculcated by his mahatmas (instructors) who were steeped in Indian concepts. He also suggests that we loved the whole Hindu 'trip' and were also responsible for the idea that he was God. Nothing could be further than the truth, I'm afraid. As far as any of us here have heard, he has taken absolutely no responsibilty for allowing the belief that he was God in human form, or divine. On the contrary, he has passed the buck and blamed the whole thing on others. The facts are clear. He once put himself across, implicitly or otherwise, as God. Now he doesn't. And oddly, he has never explained why he tolerated us believing he was God, if indeed he never was. And to add to the confusion, he still allows premies to kiss his feet, still says Knowledge doesn't work without him and in a moment of supreme irony allowed the tune 'arti' to be played during a video whose whole agenda was to refute earlier allegations of him being God. The words to the passage of arti played include: 'You are my mother, you are my father, you are my brother and you are my friend. You are riches, you are wisdom, you are my all, my lord to me.' If he really wanted premies to completely abandon any ideas of his 'divine status' why would he allow that tune onto the video? Wouldn't he want to get away from all that completely? So I'm sorry but it just ain't that simple. If he never believed he was God then why has he said nothing about how uncomfortable he must have felt when we were all treating him as if he was? If he once believed he was God but now doesn't, why has he explained nothing of the process whereby he gave up the belief that he was God? And if he always believed he was divine and still does, why does he pretend now that he isn't, and ridicule the people who ever helped him put the idea across? Something isn't right, my friend, and if you can't see it then either you are disingenuous in the extreme or you need to go back and study EPO again and think about this whole thing a little more deeply. As for the meditation, yes it works just fine for some, and many of the ex-premies still practice it. However, the premies tend to think that the meditation doesn't work without faith in Maharaji, but if he isn't divine then this really doesn't make any sense, does it? So what is going on and who is kidding who, exactly? Livia

Subject: great post nt From: Susan To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 20:55:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Precise as usual, Livia [nt] From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 11:38:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Whitewash From: Jim To: Douglas H. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 12:43:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here is a recent 'Expression' from the cult member website, Enjoying Life with Knowledge: Soon... I'm preparing to receive Knowledge, and everyday is better than the next. I hope my opportunity will come soon, but I am not worried, because I have faith that it will all work out for the best...thanks to Maharaji. Until that amazing moment, I will continue to enjoy every moment of my life and appreciate every breath... Lara Masri Beirut, Lebanon This woman did NOT live in an ashram in the seventies.

Subject: The whole 'teacher' thing... From: Chuck S. To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 14:03:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I helped with our local video library, and with video events, and was a member of our local committee, which dealt quite a bit with propagation. While M. is intoduced to new people as a teacher, it's pretty clear that he is also being presented as more than just a mere teacher. There is a whole series of color coded videos, in which this subtle distinction is expanded apon. M. in no uncertain terms declares himself to be not a teacher, but a Master, with all that entails. Quite different from the intitial introductory videos. K-Lite is just the same old Bhakti Guru-worshipping Knowledge, presented in a bait-and-switch way. It starts out with a much less heavy, lighter, ashram-free window dressing, but leads to the same place; Devotion to the Master. People may argue about how effective this approach is, but it's pretty clear to see to anyone who looks at the whole process objectively. It's not a process I WANTED to see, but when I stopped making excuses and just looked at it, there it was. It bothers me a bit when people go on about M. being just a teacher now. In the company of premies, he's denied this many times, and premies who are honest with themselves know this. The 'Teacher' schpiel is for aspirants and outsiders. Who is kidding who? K-Lite is just an easier (but disingenuous) path to that same goal; bhakti guru worship. Real teachers don't require you to be devoted to them for the rest of your life. And they LIKE you to ask questions, they don't tell you not to ask them! ())

Subject: Very astute observations, Douglas From: PatC To: Douglas H. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 10:00:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Back in the good old days, those who took M and K seriously moved into ashrams and gave all their time and money to Rawat. Some of us did not but still tried to serve him by supporting him financially and propagating K etc. The price we paid for not moving into the ashram was the knowledge that we were less than the perfect premies that Rawat demanded. It was with the blood, sweat and tears of the original 70s premies that Rawat built his personal wealth. You said: ''Indeed, I have found that I benefit from a regular practice, without much reference to Maharaji or EV whatsoever. Is it not possible that a great deal of people are in fact doing likewise?'' Perhaps not a ''great deal of people'' but some. They too need to know that Rawat built his empire out of unpaid labor. They too need to hear about the casualties created by Rawat's irresponsibility towards ashram premies. By the time you got K, Rawat had gotten his millions and adapted his act to the west - all at the expense of his original followers. So what if some people benefitted from K? They could have gotten the techniques from many meditation teachers most of whom have not made millions from their students and lived like lords of the manor while their students starved and neglected themselves and suffered - some to the point of suicide. Rawat has done that in the most selfish and arrogant way and that's why I criticise him. Just because you and a few others have benefitted does not let Rawat off the hook for the countless lives he has damaged.

Subject: Re: neglected themselves and suffered From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 10:52:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: good reality check Pat, how come no-one on LG or from EV PRF even scratch the surface of the 'casualty' issues; I wonder how many long standing PWKs whether stll n the fold or exes or 'sitting on the fencers' have balanced and normal emotional lives, free of depression, anxiety etc. I wonder what a REAL statistical survey would show up; like how many people felt M was really there for them when life's little traumas came along? or was it their blind belief that kept them going, more a testimony to their strength of character than anything else. Or how about some positive stories from LG about REAL EVENTS where M has intervened and brought support and kindness...not the imaginary world of speculation. Does anybody know any REAL statistics, like how many people come to receive K per year, what social group distribution is represented, how many stay, what level of support do people feel is there, or is missing. What kind of 'progress curve' could you draw for the dissemination of K over the last 30 years in the west. What are the opinions of long serving PAMs and instructors like Pete Dawson, Charanand; do they have any comments or words of encouragement for those disillusioned by reports of M's behaviour behind the scenes? Where can anybody go to get a TRUE picture of the world around M, then and now.......does anybody really know what time it is?

Subject: Premie suicides From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 11:18:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yesterday I was reading about the knighting of Sir Michael Phillip Jagger. Harold Pinter, the playwright, was also honored with some queenly thingy. That made me think about Harold Pinter's nephew whom I knew. He was 16 when he came to live in our commune in Hackney. That was around 69-70. Like most of us in the commune, he got K a few years later. He killed himself in 1980 after struggling for years and failing to ''realize Knowledge.''

Subject: Too Bad From: Lumia Nights To: Douglas H. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 07:01:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Those who dove deep into the silence found the secret waiting for them..Those who understood the ancient Buddhist saying,'If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him', no problems arose. Remember how he begged us to discover the answers ourselves with the methods provided till he was blue in the face. With all the hero worship, no wonder he 'surrendered' to the Hollywood game and rides it out to this day. Man, you just gotta do it yourself, ain't nobody can do it for you, no matter what the charade...Too bad about all this.

Subject: Re: Too Bad From: Neville To: Lumia Nights Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 18:18:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So you’re saying that people who committed themselves to the point of abandoning their entire lives so they could obey M 24 hours a day weren’t diving deep? Ashram premies weren’t diving deep? That years of dedicated SS&M wasn’t diving deep? Was he begging us to 'discover the answers ourselves' when he said 'Leave no room for doubts in your mind' and preached endlessly about not trusting our intellects? It’s bullshit, Mr Lumia. You can dress it up in all the cute Buddhist aphorisms you like. The only secret you’ve discovered is the incredible human faculty for self-delusion. We speak to you of premie suicides—and, yes, we all know at least one—and you reply 'Too bad'. Gee, you are SO compassionate. And we DID do it for ourselves in the end, Mr Lumia—we got the fuck out. Neville

Subject: Re: Too Bad From: Lumia Nights To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 08:02:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I say again; Those who wanted hero worship, those who didn't listen, those who didn't recognise that the Lord they sought was deep within and to get there they had to face themselves and take responsibility got the results they wanted. The commitment was to the journey within, you heard him say it over and over again. NOT to 'abandon their lives' but to embrace it. Once again, too bad. The ashram remained a personal choice; if one felt that this was a good thing to promote their growth, it was offered not forced. Look, I'm NOT defending M, he blew his mission by accepting the overwhelming external focus of hero worship and its financial rewards. He will see the results of his actions as well. The victim mentality you support has no basis in compassion. Pity maybe, but not compassion. The techniques are a way into your life, not a way out. It is compassionate to offer help and guidance which is how it was presented in the beginning, it is not compassionate to 'victimize' or brand that help as a way to escape one's life. As in alchemy, the search was not for 'gold' but for enlightenment. As so many others did, and THIS is where the pity comes in, you missed it...and that's too bad. Compassion is presenting a way, a method to further one's path by effort. pity is watching someone place the responsibility on an external focus and expecting, once again, another person to drag the chain for you. Suicide has many causes and reasons. It is not for me to understand its causes. A time-tested method was offered; you either did it or you didn't. NO sense blaming the messenger. Save us your support of 'victimhood' and get to work; you might like the results after all.

Subject: Cult-Speak... From: Cynthia To: Lumia Nights Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 11:41:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To Lumina Nights: I say again; Those who wanted hero worship, those who didn't listen, those who didn't recognise that the Lord they sought was deep within and to get there they had to face themselves and take responsibility got the results they wanted. The commitment was to the journey within, you heard him say it over and over again. NOT to 'abandon their lives' but to embrace it. Once again, too bad. The commitment was not only to journey within, it was taught that Guru Maharaji Ji was the ONLY way to gain access to that journey--the only access to merging with HIM. I was an ashram premie and one of the sisters killed herself. You say ''too bad?'' That's pathetic. What do you know about how much effort we exes put into ''it?'' What is ''it?'' Following Maharaji's agya? I happen to know many, many ashram premies who put everything into ''it.'' When I became a member of Prem Rawat's cult, I was indoctrinated to believe, to know--that he was the embodiment of a greater than god human being on earth. To me, that was spiritual abuse. He did it, not the premies we were. The ashram remained a personal choice; if one felt that this was a good thing to promote their growth, it was offered not forced. Bullshit! The ashram was a personal choice within the framework of cult programming. Maharaji and all of his initiators at that time drilled into everyone's head and mind that ashram life was the ideal way to 'realize knowledge.' Maharaji encouraged people to cut off all of their outside world relationships. He placed demands upon premies that selfish and abusive on his part. I helped run a divorce mill right in DLM headquarters in Miami Beach to assist people to be free to join the ashram, in order to supply free labor to Prem Pal. Some of these people had children. Don't talk about something you have no information about, or are too stilted in your thinking to admit. And yes, Maharaji knew about this divorce mill. Look, I'm NOT defending M, he blew his mission by accepting the overwhelming external focus of hero worship and its financial rewards. He will see the results of his actions as well. Yes you are defending Maharaji. And it wasn't 'hero' worship. It was worship of how he, Maharaji, presented himself to all newcomers, which was that he was the Lord of the Universe. Give me a break. He spoke about himself in the third person, and also referred to himself and his residence as 'divine.'' He danced in Krishna outfits, now what does that connote? The victim mentality you support has no basis in compassion. Pity maybe, but not compassion. The techniques are a way into your life, not a way out. It is compassionate to offer help and guidance which is how it was presented in the beginning, it is not compassionate to 'victimize' or brand that help as a way to escape one's life. Pure cult speak. As in alchemy, the search was not for 'gold' but for enlightenment. As so many others did, and THIS is where the pity comes in, you missed it...and that's too bad. Missed what? We discovered we were in a cult--that's the basic premise here. Maharaji didn't care one tiny bit about whether or not anyone became enlightened, whatever that is. He used people to quench his insatiable need for worship, obedience, and wealth. Compassion is presenting a way, a method to further one's path by effort. pity is watching someone place the responsibility on an external focus and expecting, once again, another person to drag the chain for you. Suicide has many causes and reasons. It is not for me to understand its causes. A time-tested method was offered; you either did it or you didn't. NO sense blaming the messenger. Save us your support of 'victimhood' and get to work; you might like the results after all. Who's ''us?'' Have you ever been up close and personal with Prem Pal? It's clear you are a true believer and can't find fault in anything Maharaji does or has done in the past. You certainly don't know much about those of us who built his wealth as slave workers so many years ago. He is the messenger all right, the leader of a personality worship cult. He has a lot of explaining to do, as do you. Your thinking is strange. I know of people who comitted suicide as a direct result of their rejection because of the mind-fuck by Maharaji. They were told they weren't good enough devotees. I know people kill themselves for many reasons, but the percentages are high in this cult, and I place the blame right at Maharaji's feet. Cynthia

Subject: Re: Cult-Speak... From: Lumia Nights To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 14:54:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look, I'm not defending this guy, ok? He has a lot to answer for and he'll pay in the end, no way for him to escape his actions or the suffering he has caused. I recieved K in 1971 during college. I was a philosophy major and got real good at stripping away the bullshit and taking the essence away. I heard 'Here are the tools, do it' so I did. That simple. I lived in the ashram for 2 years as well and saw what you saw. I left when I'd seen enough. I kept my center and used the techniques as a defense against the BS from ALL sides. I had no problem breaking the vows. He didn't mean it, so neither did I. There were lots of signs, lots of blatant power trips, easy to see. I didn't let ANYONE near my center; you could say I ripped him off, which I did with no remorse or guilt. I went on with life, used what I had learned and discovered happiness and contentment. I meditate every day with no thought of M and it's wonderful. You know, I hear this thing about 'the best years of my life were wasted'. THAT'S pathetic. Some folks learned how to let go of self-induced suffering and discovered the moment, timeless. This is NOT cult-speak. Are you that far into your suffering that ANY shade of inner happiness is automatically 'cult-speak'? C'mon Cynthia, You know better. Wasn't there anything good that you took with you? I'm really on your side with this, I saw it too. Maybe I just protected myself a little more...I'm sorry if I seem unsympathetic, but we all had a choice; you have to admit that. PS: That's Lumia, not Lumina...

Subject: Re: Cult-Speak... From: Cynthia To: Lumia Nights Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 05:23:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know what you mean by 'he will pay for it in the end.' Does that mean he's going to hell or something?:) Why is it pathetic to feel angry that the years of my life that could have been used to get over my emotional disorder (years which I needed) were spent burying it in Maharaji's world? I don't live a victim's life anymore. But one thing you must remember and it's this: Perpetrators of deception and abuse and violence are the ones who MAKE victims--not the victims. I'll tell you a story. Several years ago I was a member of a foundation called 'Vermont Psychiatric Survivors' (VPS). This foundation was created to educate people with emotional and mental health problems about how to be a good consumers of the mental health care industry (how not to get ripped off by it as well as find competent help) and to provide free group counseling in various regions of our state. They had a bi-montly newsletter. Let me back up. A guy from my town kidnapped a woman from my town, raped her, beat her in the head with a tire iron and left her for dead (completely naked) in the National Forest in the middle of the night. He had stalked her and let all the air out of her tires--he knew her and planned the attack. She found some young campers in the forest and they got her help before she died--and she lived. Years later, after this offender was convicted and sitting in prison he submitted an article to the VPS newletter writing about how victimized he felt by the prison system and how many emotional problems he had that were not being addressed. They published it. When I saw it I said, ''This is foul and ridiculous and should never have been printed. Here's a guy who brutally raped and nearly killed a woman, creating a new victim, a new mental health care consumer, and now he's complaining and looking for sympathy?'' Everyone on the board agreed with me that it was a mistake to give that man a voice. So remember, I consider myself a survivor not a victim. I know the difference between the two. Good for you that you never really believed that m was the lord, but many of us did. Good for you that you haven't felt victimized. That tells me you never invested much in the cult or m to begin with, so good for you. What else can I say? I don't even know who you are. Cynthia

Subject: Cult-Speak...gobbledegook, Cynthia. Well said. [nt] From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 12:05:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: agreement with reservations From: The Falcon To: Lumia Nights Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 08:11:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting post, Lumia Nights. It reads well and I am in agreement with you on many points but mainly that Maharaji blew his mission, I genuinely think he was a 'golden child' but someone must have kissed him (feet perchance?) because the prince turned into a frog, whoops! I am certain that he is addicted to worship and money. I maintain the connection to what you refer to as 'the Lord within' (sure as shit ain't nowhere else!)

Subject: Re: agreement with reservations From: Lumia Nights To: The Falcon Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 08:16:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Roger that, Falcon. Too bad he took advantage, but also too bad people did not take advantage either. PS: Had a beautiful meditation last night; didn't 'focus' on anyone...

Subject: I'm glad I read that, Neville [nt] From: PatC To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 01:17:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Statistics From: An interesting test To: Douglas H. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 06:38:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You may not be able to do this since you did your own thing despite M's wishes but those who were around can, Make a list of all those people who were initiated into M's secret cult that you knew. Disregard their status in the slimey cult, disregard their living condition and disregard their reason for leaving. Most people who have done this find that about 90% are gone. The why doesn't matter anymore than that of a math teacher who fails to communicate the proper instruction to 90% of his students. The number is much to large to ignore. The numbers joining the cult after 1980 are very, very small compared to 'the golden age' of the 70's but it would be interesting to isolate that group and see if the 90% failure rate is still present

Subject: Re: Statistics From: Jerry To: Douglas H. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 05:04:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As far as I can gather, persons receiving Knowledge these days do not have to accept Maharaji as anything other than a teacher and inspiration in their practice, which was virtually the same as in my day. Yeah, there is that 'keep in touch' bargain you have to make with the 'master', isn't there? I guess you didn't pay much heed to that. Good for you. You just took the Knowledge and ran, from what I can gather, without falling for Maharaji's line that without him there's no 'clarity'. The question that comes to my mind is why did you receive Knowledge, at all, if you don't make 'much reference to Maharaji or EV whatsoever'? It seems to me that if you're unimpressed by the man and his organization, it would follow that you'd be uninterested in receiving K, as well. How did you disassociate the two?

Subject: Re: Statistics From: D.H. To: Jerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 05:45:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From the limited amount of service/participation I was involved in, I found it more beneficial to avoid e.g. setting up programs with a lot of wound-up people who would argue and knife each other over the millimetric placing of chairs in rooms. It seemed to me then that people were so hung up on petty pieces of dogma and the annual mantric party line that they often forgot the most down to earth realities - that K was about feeling love and relaxation inside, and providing a channel for this to the outside. I felt that the truer devotion was internal - to strive just to relax and be with the feeling, and other things like propagation would follow quite naturally, through the employment of good sense. Maybe I was too sensible, maybe I just hadn't got the plot. I certainly found Maharaji himself very inspiring. He always seemed to me to be urging us to stick to the clarity inside and use our common sense and rationality, and not to get mixed up in endless mental extrapolations. This to me seemed the real message, and I thought it was because many people had hurled away their common reason that most problems arose. I certainly never felt that was what he meant by controlling the mind. I always thought he meant to balance the functioning of the mind with the restfulness of spirit. That's what attracted me in the first place. It's how I have always regarded meditation since.

Subject: One more question, D.H. From: Jerry To: D.H. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 14:15:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You say you've found Maharaji inspiring. Do you believe the allegations on this website about him - his drinking, womanizing, the hit-and-run affair? If you do, will you continue to find him so inspiring?

Subject: Re: That's what attracted From: AV To: D.H. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 07:25:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, I have to say I agree with your sentiments... what I have found most numbing and depressing is stumbling upon the revelations on EPO which categorise M's own dysfunctional private life; the beacon I set my compass by for thirty years had itself ended up on the rocks. if you know anyway past this stage , I'd dearly like to know; practising K was never easy at the best of times. love.

Subject: I don't believe any of this From: Sir Dave To: D.H. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 07:23:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For somebody who claims in his first post to have had no association with Maharaji or premies since receiving knowledge, you seem to know an awful lot about things. You even know the current buzz words. Did you make the name ''Douglas Henderson'' up?

Subject: A great thread IMO, I believe this From: Dep To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 08:28:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sir Dave, I know a lot of people like 'Douglas Henderson.' Remember, K Lite has been around for about 15 years. Doug knows the current buzz words because - of his own admission - he watches 2 to 3 videos a year. I for one, think his statistics are accurate. The really angry exes are people like Jim, who lived in the ashram, and gave the best years of their lives away to Mr. Rawat. I know a few people like Douglas. They stayed on the fringe, they benefited from Knowledge, and they still practice. Receiving K was a positive experience for them. They honestly don't have much of an emotional charge around Mr. Rawat. Many have also dabbled in other consciousness changing practices such as yoga, the martial arts, or The Landmark Forum. While it is possible that Mr. Douglas is a shill, I think that what he is saying is essentially true. =) BTW, Happy Father's Day to all the dads out there.

Subject: Re: A great thread IMO, I believe this From: bill To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 23:11:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the HFD Dep, Depends what you are after in life I guess. If we lived 300 years, we would have time to stall and drift. Best to pursue things you want, and if one of them is understanding life here, knowing the more full story about the guy yammering on about truth helps you decide wether you want him in your ears at all. Dabbleing in 'conciousness changing' isnt limited to the groups you mentioned as you know, folks try everything to alter things for the better. Or to get some result. Alcohol is quite popular, but -what really are we after and why is it hard to get it- are the issues that the rawat clan dont deal with although they pose like they do. So, they and other groups that line up to 'help' us with this are actually blocking our pursuit and wasteing our limited time with thier non answers. So, I guess Douglass might want to review what he is trying to accomplish, and if he is wasting time or just killing it. Or hell, some things are poison to one and not to another. That doesnt excuse the fraud, just depends on the level of hell Douglass was in before. Hey, sleepwalking is popular, destructive dreaming is too, depends what you want in life I suppose.

Subject: I'm glad I read this too, bill From: PatC To: bill Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 01:22:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rawatism, Hinduism and all the other isms from India are very glib but your post was nice and deep.

Subject: Knowledge Lite premies... From: Chuck S. To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 12:14:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I first started to post on the forum a year and a half ago, I noticed there were not many ex-premies of the 'Knowledge Lite' variety. I was curious about that, because K-lite is the catagory I fall into. There were some threads about it on FV. It seems at least one lady who had recieved K in 1986, stumbled on EPO and was horrified; she had no idea about the history of M & K. I imagine that many other have come accoss EPO, but didn't bother to post. It's also possible that many of the K-lite premies didn't have such a strong emotional attachment to Maharaji, and simply drifted away. If he is 'just a teacher' to you, and nothing more, it would make it easier to walk. It would be interesting to have more solid statistics, but where can one get such information? Just going by my own experience, it seems to me that: 1.) Most the members of our local commitee were people who recieved K in the '70's. All except myself, myself and one other were K-lite people, and we found the attitudes of the '70's premies to be unflexible and strangely, unquestioningly servile. We left, most of the others remained. 2.) At most of the events I attended, most of the premies seemed to be the '70's crowd. There were some younger people, perhaps grown children of '70's premies? But there were not a lot of them. 3.) Judging from what people here have been saying, it seems that most of the volunteers who are currently on committees and actively involved in 'syncronized participation' and 'propagation' are mostly premies from the '70's. There may be K-lite premies too, but they seem to be in the minority. If anyone has information to the contrary, it would be interesting to hear from them.

Subject: Re: seemed to be the '70's crowd From: AV To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 14:32:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Apart from some obviously well dressed and well to do Euro prems and AmPams, I am not aware of a swell of new recruits...it all seems to be the same ol' wreckin' crew I grew up with...

Subject: Re: Statistics From: Mirror To: Douglas H. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 03:07:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, I'm a post-ashram-era premie too. That is eighties, so the ashram problems never ticked me off. What did though, was the endless fundraising that went on and on and still is the main focus of the cult to this date. Believe me, M is not interested in your regular and devoted practice. He wants your money. If you're not practicing regular 'participation', you are not an interesting cult-member to him. Oh and do you really believe foot kissing and arti ever went out of fashion? I swear they're still doing it! Good thing you have always decided what is best for you without listening to M's advice. Keep listening to yourself! Keep your money in your own pocket and make sure it is put to your enjoyment, not his. Mirror

Subject: Forum gossip for those who can't keep up From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 01:07:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I love it. I confess the main thing that keeps me reading the premie/ex-premie forums is the gossippy nature of it. Many of us knew each other in the past and now. I particularly enjoyed this thread on LG. It's probably only interesting to other forum yentas who follow this interactive soap opera. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Posted by: Catweasel Recipient: All Subject: Let's be straight about this;) Message: Over at Hell (F7), where I choose not to post, I read a rant from Patsy that myself and David are frightened of Deborah... That is really bordering on the delusional. I hold no fears of Deb or anyone else here or there. I have great respect for Deb's courage to actually admit that she was hoodwinked by the likes of Heller and Conlan and to demonstrate that she has a working functioning intellect and can think for herself thank you very much! It should be obvious to anyone who looks that there is a well orchestrated and planned campaign by the so-called X's to discredit and denigrate any percieved pockets of opposition to their plan for world domination. In itself that explains why JHB,Jerry, Moley Dermot et al all feel the need to come over here and save us from ourselves. Well I have a little message for them . 'DONT WORRY!!' we are fine over here 'Life is Great!' And here is my positive message 'Ice Creams for everyone!' CD , I think you need to identify how things get a wriggle on before you slash and burn. We are all Cyndi Laupers really, we just want to have fun !!! And for those who feel like providing an alternative report to Hellers nonsense on Vancouver, please do!! We will be all eyes! (I really get a chuckle out of Jim's description of his conversation with that little Morgan guy.) Hey Jim, everyone thinks your a standup guy! Yeah? --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Posted by: Deborah Recipient: Catweasel Subject: Justification for the little mind-games Message: what is staggering is that some of them may even buy that. But remember my friend, they are not brainwashed and suffering from cognitive dissonance. No, not at all. Saying that you and Doc are terrified handles what little possible cognitive thinking may seep through the crevices of their intellect. God forbid they ask themselves, 'Why can she get along, when we can't?' Or, 'What is she saying or not saying, that makes her able to be friends?' They might even entertain the possibility that Doc and Cat are not out to GET US. If people over their ask themselves these type of questions, the well oiled machinery of 'group think' breaks down. Their brain-dead plot aims to create opposition where there is none. You see, Doc and Cat aren't really getting along, no, they are terrified. Whew!!!! What a relief, now they don' t have to think. And the beauty is, nobody has to even come here. They leave links off the forum and do everyone the favour of coming here for their them. Nice of them, eh? And they paint the picture any way they want. They throw in some lies to thicken the sauce and voila!! Spoon fed reality served on a platter. Everybody dig in! The 'group think' apparently broke down for a few exes that they consciously know of. And they fear that possibility happening to anyone else. The orchestrated attempt is obvious, I agree. But well? I know seven years old that could do better than they do. Their lies are embarrassingly transparent and their revisions hopelessly brain dead. Having gooney birds like Cynthia coming over with her not-dealing-with-a full deck remarks is the symbolic of how aimless, and well, 'stupid' they are. But to be caught with your pants down over and over again is this side of pathetic. What's even more pathetic, is that the come here and mindlessly pull down their own pants in front of everyone. A premie, well churchlady, told me that nobody has questions any more, just comments. And the comments are all about how dangerous and sickening the environement has become. The whole shebang backfired on them. That's why I've been laughing, I knew it was just a matter of time, and I alerted a few people to the facts and had them watch. Knowing Heller's obsession and the stupidity of the bodgies to have no recollection of their previous post's spin, that they would hang themselves and save me the problem. I'd say it worked like a charm. cheers, deborah, who is making you an offer to do what I tell you from now on so that nobody gets hurt --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- - Posted by: Peter Howie Recipient: Catweasel Subject: Irony Message: Hi there, I made a note over on the forum about the irony of having forums that thrive off each other. They are after all rather like mirror images, only the content is different. Systemically they are identical. It is true that having someone to fight with is a great way to get inspiration and togetherness going. It works here and it works there. And now we both spend time quoting and commenting on each other. Irony is all I can think of. If I was more depressed I might say pathetic or sad. But I feel pretty good, so ironic it is. Neither of us forums, have much going on when there isn't a fight or someone trying to get a fight going. Of course, at other times individuals keep it chugging - e.g.Neville, John, Jim etc with well thought out considerations or stories of escapades or interesting chats. I need a Dettmers with some new juice to keep me going though Jim's escapades were fun. I think the last time I remember seeing you was in Canberra - you were driving some type of supercharged V8 with a girlfriend and I was in my trusty old blue truck and celibate and jealous. We had a fake burn at the lights. I only stayed in Canberra for a couple of months and you were there for only a few weeks visiting as I recall. Anyway I remember your sense of humour and a fight we had over a truck In Brisbane in the early cityscape days. You won. Peter Howie Brisland, Australia --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- - Posted by: Catweasel Recipient: Peter Howie Subject: No this is a different kind of place:) Message: Umm what? Here is the rub Pete - we dont want to fight argue or construct myths. Point One I have never owned a supercharged V8 ,and have only been to Canberra over the last 5 years on business. Point Two I never fought over anything at Cityscape Peter. I didn't have to.Point Three I do have a sense of humour. But you must be confusing me with some-one else. Remember;you are in cyberspace and many things are possible.And sometimes the drones at F7 eat what they are fed. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- - Posted by: Peter Howie Recipient: Catweasel Subject: Different but still the irony Message: Hi again, If my fantasies about you don't connect with reality I'm not too worried but you did say I would be surprised when I worked it out. Just about whoever you really are will be a surprise simply because I will have created so many fantasies about who you could have been by that time. Your first point - whether you want to fight argue or construct myths or not - you and others here are nevertheless doing that from where I read. The fights are with exs (either present or in spirit) - whether they are simply responses from your point of view or not doesn't matter. You definitely argue with exs on F7 and with them here. And you create myths about people on F7 and those who post here - just as you are a myth as well. I mean you would have to have been one of the main protagonists of the 'Jim' myth(cold, heartless, closed minded, relentless, etc). Just as at one time he would have been one of the main developers of the catweasel myth (ruthless, mindless, disruptive, stupid). You can call yourself a cyber-identity or something else - but it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to call you a myth. So intention has little to do with it really. I probably have confused you with someone else just as you have confused me with the identity of a person who lived more than 20 years ago. I contain that identity but have definitely moved on and expanded. As I imagine you have. Anyway - the irony continues in that on this forum I could, at a stretch be considered a troll much as you are considered one over in F7 land. Cheers again Peter Howie Brisbane Australia --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Posted by: Catweasel Recipient: Peter Howie Subject: Re: Different but still the irony Message: Peter, you did know me but I cant say I fit the profiles thus far. You may notice I haven't been near F7 for months. I am not blocked but I think it has turned into something quite rabid that needs little comment to find a perspective. Here is different. House rule seems simple. Talk about life, yours and what is interesting , good or breathtaking. But X's want to fight. Wont get a positive response then will it? As for identity? Irrelevant -like you said ,20 years on and we are in Cyberspace - who cares? --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Who cares? What an arrogant attitude! Even Cindy Lauper would care if she had been a premie. PS Oh, okay - this post was mostly for those who are blocked from LG, namely Jim. (I know how much you hate been gossipped about behind your back. I bet you wonder if they dis you on RE.) PPS I was thinking about starting another tradition - an annual rant against anonymity and an exhortation to be bold and fearless. I'm still convinced that anonymity - like timidness and secrecy - is not good for the soul. :P Oh, here's the gossip about me on ''How's the Weather:" --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Posted by: NevaLander Recipient: A blond with paint ... Subject: Re: I guess that means .... Message: Been trying to determine if BIG is bigger than just a big. Like BIG BIG troubles or big big troubles. How about BIG BIG TROUBLES? Is it bigger than big big troubles. I would say this is a bigger troubles than most of all the other big troubles BIG TROUBLES Virus bug of PatC is simple really. We will not be discussing the real motive behind this bug, though it will if you like, but this is only a brief summary which I will call Introduction to Nastiness. It goes like this. It’s vital that you have the desire to consolidate your position. This has manifested in you acquiring the tools that will allow you to be into the position of power consolidation. For example, our confused FA [confused because he doesn't know if he is Dave ot Dave, but that's being off topic] is in such a position. He can read all sort of information about us, but he has not got the PatC virus. The PtaC virus becomes active when the FA becomes delusional and starts thinking he [notice most FA are males] is a replacement for god. In this state, the FA enters into a trans, he becomes holly and affirms this on his forum. The state of this trans is to serve the specific purpose of emptiness that the FA feels. Remember, the act of being an FA is highly dubious and questionable. The FA carries on with his soapy opera until someone pokes him in the side and this is where the PatC virus kicks in. The person possessed by the PatC virus infected person becomes in desperate need to figure out who has poked him, that also implies that the state of holiness is shed and the real villain manifest himself. Of course the consequences to this phenomena are very well documented and you may refer to them. But you should consider yourself lucky because you have the antidote for the virus. uuoommmooowaahhh [that is the sound of me kissing the screen]

Subject: Who? Me steal posts from LG? Little old moi? From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 16:11:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Posted by: Deborah Recipient: Peter Howie Subject: Re: Irony Message: Hi Peter, Although I could say that is true that the premies at LG fed off the debates and posts from F-VII several months ago, it is not so today. The climate has changed dramatically and the exes refuse to acknowledge that. The discussions have been very inclusive and M or K is optional. Meanwhile, exes come over and continually antagonize the posters and actually ridicule posts where we are getting along with other. What do you think the 'Cat and Doc are terrified of Deborah' absurd slur means? To add to the absurdity, they claim that the forum is boring unless they come here because all they know is fighting. Well the forum hasn't been boring till they get here, it has been harmonious. Nobody fights with anyone anymore. The exes have thrived on stealing posts from here because their bate is not bitten on their own forum. It's like they don't want to be responsible for their own opinions. Nope!!! Might have to account to it. What's the solution to them? Prey on the posts here, and bring it triumphantly over to their respective lairs, and allow their fellow wolves to rip it apart. That seems to be all they know. Like Cat said, people here do not want to fight and have discouraged the exes from posting here unless they have something worthwhile to say. They have been told that their negative opinions are not wanted. Now, that is a little different from egging people on and debating them, isn't it? But the exes can't post without criticism of M or K. They don't consider any other topic worthwhile. And the exes that have given up the battle and decided to treat people here with respect and human kindness regardless of their beliefs and practices have been maliciously ridiculed and even cyberstalked. I have been the target of an on-going revision of history andactual events and now even a ludicrous libelous accusation committed by Heller. That is the epitome of sickness and ample reason why nobody should ever be encouraged to give their real name unless they are willing to kiss ass over at F-VII for the rest of their life. I would like you to consider giving up being an accomplice to cyberstalking Catweasel. The intentions are not playful by any stretch of the imagination. If you knew that innocent people were being reported to police stations and accused of cyber disruption of their forum and accused of CAC, would it change your mind? Well, that is how fuckin sick and evil some of them are over there. So it is not only unkind, unnecessary, and actual un-netiquette to do what you are doing to Cat on behalf of the exes, it is dangerous. However, I do think it's great that you have the honesty and integrity to call F-VII on it's game-playing shit. It's amazing how much denial exists over there. But stick around, and you will see that you spoke too soon for the people over here. cheers, Deborah, who really hopes you reconsider the Cat cyberstalking campaign --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Posted by: Mili Recipient: Deborah Subject: Re: Irony Message: I can't believe that the vindictive son of a bitch is actually taking you to court (over what??). Like, what does he hope to accomplish by that - punish you for leaving the 'X' fold? Send anyone who disagrees with him here a message, like 'you are next'? And Gerry reporting Carlos to the police for supposedly conspiring to harrass him by phone. That's sick. Phew. Talk about silencing the opposition by hook or by crook! They're gonna reap what they sow eventually, if you ask me. These people have obviously got nowhere to hang out except on the Internet, socially speaking. They are self-imposed outcasts. That's why all this forum shit is so important to them. You hang in there, Deb. Take care. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Posted by: Deborah Recipient: Mili Subject: Ooops, you read it wrong Message: Hi Mili, What I have to do is costing me attorney fees. I have to be prepared for whatever is going to happen. And I was advised not to do anything without speaking with an attorney. This may or may not go to court. However, I am prepared to make statements and take as many polygraph or truth determination tests as necessary. Sorry to get you upset. It probably wasn't worded correctly. But in the event that I do go court, it will take a serious amount of money which I have to be preapared to earn, let alone spend. I am willing to take on extra employment in order to foot the bill. But shit! that is money that could be paying off my student loan or giving me some of the necessities I've put to the wayside to get through school. The whole thing pisses me off. So when Peter says that Heller condemnation is a myth, he is seriously mistaken. cheers, deborah, who wishes it was a myth but knows better, unfortunately too late

Subject: Is Deborah just trying to get money from people? From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 16:55:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mili, What I have to do is costing me attorney fees. I have to be prepared for whatever is going to happen. And I was advised not to do anything without speaking with an attorney. This may or may not go to court. However, I am prepared to make statements and take as many polygraph or truth determination tests as necessary. Sorry to get you upset. It probably wasn't worded correctly. But in the event that I do go court, it will take a serious amount of money which I have to be preapared to earn, let alone spend. I am willing to take on extra employment in order to foot the bill. But shit! that is money that could be paying off my student loan or giving me some of the necessities I've put to the wayside to get through school. The whole thing pisses me off. So when Peter says that Heller condemnation is a myth, he is seriously mistaken. cheers, deborah, who wishes it was a myth but knows better, unfortunately too late This is getting pretty funny, as in weird, I must say. Deborah, as I've said before, is penniless. She borrowed a few hundred bucks twice from me just to keep eating and not get kicked out of her room (in a youth hostel) while she desparately awaited her next student loan installment. At one point, another ex had sent me some money which I was holding onto for something or other. Turns out I never needed it but before I could send it back, Deb talked that person into getting me to give her, Deb, the money instead of returning it. Why? So Deborah could use it for the 'documentary' she was going to do on Maharaji. When the other person agreed, Deb hounded me for it and complained when I didn't give it to her 'immediately'. It was $200 U.S. Now, honestly, I'm sure Deb did, then, intend to actually do a documentary on Maharaji. No reason to doubt it (her being the 'player' that she is, and all). But is there any one of us so naive as to believe that Deborah who, no kidding, used to complain to me regularly about not having enough money to even feed herself properly, actually set that money aside in some sort of 'documentary fund'? Well, we all know that Deb no longer feels any animosity towards Maharaji. In that case, the documentary project's over. Who wants to bet that she hasn't yet returned that contribution? You know, I may be completely wrong here. Maybe she HAS returned it. :) Anyway, point is, Deborah's now making all sorts of noises about the arduous 'legal fees' she's going to need to deal with my supposed false report about her threat to have Pat killed. Am I the only one that sees an obvious pitch for handouts? I can't say it any stronger. Deborah's a liar. She most definitely threatened Pat and I'm more than willing to get my witnesses to post something to that effect if anyone's interested. Or email me, perhaps. Or something! This woman's lying and I want everyone dealing with her to know that, oh yes I do.

Subject: fuck you heller you fucking piece of shit From: Selene To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 20:38:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: no one talked me into anything fuck you

Subject: Whatever From: Jim To: Selene Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:24:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Quit making a fool of yourself. The fact is you did start spassing on me (kind of like you are now, I guess :)) to give it to her for her 'documentary'. You say you even got it back? Good for you.

Subject: Re: fuck you heller you fucking piece of shit From: Selene to Heller To: Selene Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 20:39:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I got paid

Subject: fuck you heller you fucking piece of shit From: Selene to Heller To: Selene to Heller Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 20:41:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd rather burn the 200 bucks than have you keep it

Subject: Re: fuck you heller you fucking piece of shit From: Selene to Heller To: Selene to Heller Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 20:41:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You disgust me.

Subject: fuck you heller you fucking piece of shit From: Selene to Heller To: Selene to Heller Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 20:42:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: don't be writing checks your ass can't cash oh and fuck you

Subject: fuck you heller you fucking piece of shit From: to Heller To: Selene to Heller Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 20:43:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: shut up about this story you didn't tell the correct version

Subject: fuck you heller you fucking piece of shit From: Selene To: to Heller Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 20:48:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No place TO tell the correct version How nice for you you loser piece of shit fuck you

Subject: Enough spleen, Selene [nt] From: Livia To: Selene Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 14:38:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The rest of this story's on Symp too :) [nt] From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 15:19:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Is Deborah trying to get money? Yes. It's sad From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 01:41:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I do understand your concern - ''This woman's lying and I want everyone dealing with her to know that, oh yes I do.'' - and I sympathise. But she is more than a liar. There is something very sad happening there and I get pangs of conscience sometimes bringing her posts over here for you to read because you can't. I hope that any decent person has also seen that. The only people dealing with her right now are the LG premies and don't expect any of them to agree with you. Either they are such accomplished liars themselves like CW and Roupell or they are like Carlos - in two minds about lying because AA says you mustn't. (I sometimes think that he may even have a conscience. His dilemma must be painful.) But basically it's the enemy of my enemy is my friend thingy.

Subject: Are people trying to get money? From: oh no! To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 20:47:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: imagine trying to get money!

Subject: Bring it on, Deb -- hilarious! From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 16:23:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Deborah's being ridiculous. What's she talking about? Suing me for reporting that she threatened to have Pat killed? That's hilarious. Look, is there a single person here who believes her and still doubts me? Would you like to hear from my key witness? She is unabashedly, clearly, brazenly lying. You bet she is.

Subject: They're paranoid, Jim... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 19:56:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When CD posted his red letter warning on LG about being and talking nice to eachother he also started deleting posts. I posted asking if that includes Deborah's nasties. I didn't post my name but they know it's me. I got another nasty MPD reply from 'kettle' and I didn't get it. LOL on me! They posted something like (that deleted it so fast I never kept it!) 'And what about Cynthia's 18 nasties' obviously referring to my 18 parts. I thought they were talking about 18 posts! When they clarified it for me I had a good laugh on myself.:C) There was an exchange (no fighting) and someone posted under 'black' (get it? the pot calls the kettle back--that was very original!) and 'MPD...' making accusations of my nasty posts on LG. Anyway, I was very nice and civil and Carlos was supportive. I admitted I have an agenda which is to support the ex-premie movement, but only in the capacity of posting on F7 and I wouldn't be posting on LG because I don't care to. These posts have been going on over a day or so, btw. Then bing, today they all got deleted. This leads me to believe that Deborah is now playing the pity me role because she needs money for professional legal advice. There's an atmosphere of paranoia there and personal vendetta. It's weird, very weird. I know CD hates my guts, but I posted honest answers to questions and everything. Oh well, I won't be posting there anymore. I believe Deborah is nervous about the fact she is lying about the threat. Where the rubber hits the road you have witnesses. She's probably spending so much time saving posts, phew...very strange. That's my opinion only.:)

Subject: They're playing games From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 01:57:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CD, Roupell and CW email each other. They've said as much in passing. Deb now emails Roupell - including sending all my emails to her to him. My prime suspects for CAC are Roupell and CW. It's got their authorship written all over it. They are now milking Deb for all she's worth and she's obliging - probably even askingthem for legal advice etc. Of course she won't get any money from them. That's what's sad. She's a bit out of touch with reality. Meantime they've gotten a lot of info to fuel their paranoia and help them in their crazy mission against exes. Of course Roupell and CW are really not all that heavy. Their main weapons are lying and playing games. She fits right into their little scheme. Only thing is - are they street-smart enough to know that she's as big a grifter as they are? PS I read that 18 nasties thread. If you've got qualms (as I do) about bringing gossip over to F7 for Jim to read, you can always post it on Symp aka the Gossip Column. :P

Subject: Re: They're playing games From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 07:50:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I never kept a copy of the posts in that thread and it's no big deal anyway. The premies, especially CD, want people to talk about the miracles of this life. Too culty for my taste and they don't want to have discussions about anything besides nicey nice stuff;) I'm not surprised it was deleted--I did answer that anonymouse honestly and politely, though...

Subject: Re: They're playing games From: Catweasel To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 06:26:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I recieve no Emails. I send no emails. And thats pure crap in sum total Pat. Who you kidding Pat ? You think youre dealing with the CIA? Lots of Love and Confusion for you Catweasel

Subject: Cat From: Dermot To: Catweasel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 07:48:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What are you doing here? One minute you say it's 'a boring afterthought' and the next you're here. I guess you're here to counteract lies eh? But then that's what JHB says and does over in your cesspit. When he does you use multiple aliases to tell him to have some respect and 'piss off' fuck off' or bugger off '...hmmm bit of double standards there methinks. While you're here though....did you listen to that Portland shit Thorin kindly provided? The Personality cult still lives on I see but this time 'Agya' 'Divine Residence' 'Total surrender to GM' and all such bullshit mentioned at Portland isn't dared mentioned today. Still, you're still allowed to think it though, yes? And your comment to Peter Howie is a real howler...'things are going to change' .....how many times do you say that Cat? Last time was before the publication of the LEADERS piece wasn't it? You were promising some huge shift in the Universe when a leading biz mag was going to profile Rawat....yes? Ho hum eh? The only thing that would constitute real change, Cat, is if Rawat comes clean about his 'sycophants recruitment enterprise' but as we all know he hasn't got the guts for that so NOTHING will change. You'll be postponing present reality for the thought of an Amaroo event in future.....you'll go and drink yer beer/ kiss the feet...and he'll be milking everyone one of you for what it's worth. 'Things are gonna change' ? What , another biz mag'interview' or something? What a joke...... :) Dermot

Subject: Neville Ackland-need your email addr.? From: janet To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 13:43:34 (PDT) Email Address: Jai_Choix@yahoo.com Message: hi nev. you didnt post your email address. kudos to your campaign in Oz. another gonzo Aries friend of mine (who was an aspirant for 10 years straight, and repeatedlywas refused the techniques because he was diehard street rebellious, and would not make himself over in the corporate EV image to be accepted) was discussing hs ideas of how to embarrass public figures with me, this morning. He likes the absurb street theatre school of protest. He voiced some pure gems that i think you're gonna love, that would be soooooo doable at amaroo. it's really too bad we can't arrange for this particular one at pasadena tomorrow, but there's plenty of time to get it set up for OZ. it would aslo work wonderfully well in the UK, if anyone's curious to hear it. these scenarios he comes up with are harmless but hysterically funny for their satire and devastating public attention, especially if someone alerts the media beforehand to capture the chaos for the news. think ken kesey's merry pranksters. if you're interested, email me and I'll relay his wicked ideas for these public embarrassments. you can use em at your discretion. for that matter, all the rest of you can do likewise. one of these ideas would work great in Canada too. it would just be too hard to setup for pasadena tomorrow, on such short notice. but these ideas are too rich not to be tried out.

Subject: Re: Neville Ackland-need your email addr.? From: Neville Ackland To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 03:15:51 (PDT) Email Address: primemover@hypermax.net.au Message: Hello Janet Great to hear from you, can't wait to hear your ideas on how to embarrass M. My email address is as per this message. Kind regards Neville Ackland

Subject: Do premies support of Sai baba? From: Jethro To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 02:32:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Over on LG, I puit up the peteition to sign about Saibaba and it was deleted. I would have thought that exposing a person like that would make life greater for those abused and their families or do they see some similarity? Oh yes, just one more thing. An early Ameruican PAM oonce told me that circa 71 when m first came to the USA, the Saibaba foundation were kind enough to let their centres be used for satsang. Anyone know anything about this?

Subject: What's good for the goose From: PatC To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 01:52:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think all cults are sticking together more nowadays. The Scientologists even rent themselves out as consultants to other cults having to deal with the problems of former cult members (''apostates'' in the anti-ex lingo.) I saw your post and one or two responses by premies before they were deleted and it looked like they were uncomfortable with an attack on another guru. Too close for comfort.

Subject: Too close for comfort... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 09:06:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was going to respond to Jethro about the removal of the petition. My first reaction was that it is too close for comfort for obvious reasons related to Jagdeo. Beyond that however, my guess is that the premies felt it would set a precedent to comment on Sai Baba. I could almost see wheels turning...'if we approve of this petition, next week they have one here about Maharaji and Jagdeo..' and all of the implications of discussing that can of worms. It's Life's Great, after all, and very off-topic.

Subject: Here's something to feast on From: Jerry To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 23:08:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's some pearls from Deborah over at Life's Great. The exes have proven to me how unreasonably terrified they ae of critical thinking. And the sick little defamation and constant revision games clearly illustrate to what extent some of them will go. It's a bloody joke to call the premies not ciritical thinking when the crowd here is a mix bag of mixed ideas. And everyone at F-VII tows the party line or gets berated or banned. cheers, deborah, who also agrees with the constant critical remark Ya, sure, Deb. Socrates had nothing on you.

Subject: More from Da Borer on LG From: PatC To: Jerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 10:59:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Posted by: Deborah Recipient: Catweasel Subject: You got a point there Message: better that, than a pointy head like JHB So, are they singing TAPS at F-VII yet? New recruits? exes thrown overboard? volunteers jumping shit, er ... I mean jumping ship? So Cat, do you support the idea of CD getting an assistant? I agree with Doc and CD that it's a good idea to have another forum to handle the bullshit slinging from F-VII. THat could be done while maintaining a fun forum. And keep this forum for inspiration and worthy posts only. sounds like a good compromise. But whoever suggested that the posts defencding the revision, lies, defamtion and gun polishing threats should be done on the forum of initiation hasn't been observing the critical thinking control fear-based games of the exes. THe ban anyone who dares questions or addresses their heneious posts. It's not like there's a great audience, but still the correction to that crap needs to be aired. I busted Heller so good and exposed his tangled lies and proved he was nothing but a LIAR. But, you already know that. cheers, deborah, who is signing off forum for her Friday night -- but wishes you Aussies a great day and fun-loving Saturday night

Subject: Re: Here's something to feast on From: Bolly To: Jerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 05:04:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Deborah? So returning to the fold, this devotee is now able to assess the state of mind of exes huh!? One thing I am curious about, in the bible there is more rejoicing over the one sheep who has strayed and returned than over the ones who stayed at home. So did Deborah return to the lotus feet to be greeted with fatted calves and plenty of plonk? Is she now more precious to her lord having seen the error of her ways? Just curious, Bolly

Subject: Re: Here's something to feast on From: Thorin To: Jerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 01:42:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Huh, maybe I am being dumb or something. I thought Deborah use to post over here as a 'rabid ex' denouncing all things about Maharaji and being very critical about the lack of thinking process that pwks had. Maybe Deborah has become elevated in her critical thinking that we all look forward to? Pwk -> Ex -> Pwk -> what next? Maybe my thinking process is strictly 2-dimensional whereas Deborah's is multi-dimensional. Thorin

Subject: My quarterly anti-Recent Exes rant From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 11:15:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nothing better to do so I think I'll rant against the Recent Exes forum for a moment or two. This rant will be in the form of questions: 1) How many posters are there on RE? 2) How many of them never post on F7? 3) How many posters on RE will never post on F7? 4) How many posters on RE who will never post on F7 still enjoy all the benefits of reading this forum with its disclosures, insights, opinions, etc. without offering anything here in return? 5) Have there been any interesting disclosures, insights, opinions, etc, on RE worth reading but which we regular folk won't ever see? 6) And this was all for what again?

Subject: RE Forum From: Anandaji To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 22:43:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am one who posts more frequently on RE than F7. I read F7 just as often as RE, but don't post as much. For me, RE, is similar to a 12-step group or group therapy. After I discovered EPO last December, like most of you, I would guess, I felt quite confused and depressed. There is a place for 12-step or therapy groups. There is a place for RE for similar reasons. I have felt listened to there and supported. It has been vital to my healing. A basic rule in 12-step and other such groups is confidentiality. What is said there, stays there. Perhaps for some such 'therapy' is unnecessary, but for me it is. To suggest that RE is elitist in some way is an unfortunate misconception. There are some wonderful and gifted people there; angels, if you will. They seem to be gifted in that regard and it appears their nature to welcome, nurture and support. I am deeply indebted to them. I do not wish to compare RE with F7 in any way that places one above the other. That is silly. They both serve a vital service to us. I read F7 almost every day. For me, it is a source of news and ideas. I am guessing that as I move on in my recovery, I will become an increasing participant in F7. F7 also suffers from its own success. It has become so popular that message threads often disappear off the screen in a day or two. There are so many messages to read there that I have difficulty keeping up. Fortunately, in RE there are far fewer posters, so it is also nice in that regard. Anandaji

Subject: Yeah, but .... From: Jim To: Anandaji Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 13:05:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't you ever feel, right in the middle of a discussion there, that it it's a shame the rest of everyone who posts and reads here -- exes and premies alike when you consider all the lurkers -- will never read whatever you or someone else is saying? People tell stories about the cult? Don't people on RE ever tell stories? What happens to those? Nothing. They're buried in a secretive faux 12 step meeting room. Great.

Subject: Disappearing off the screen From: JHB To: Anandaji Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 03:19:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anandaji, This forum holds 700 posts. It takes over a week usually for threads to disappear. Are you aware of the 'view all' feature? I agree pretty much with your analysis. I only complain on RE on the rare occasions when something is said there that I really feel should be made public. Usually it is. John.

Subject: 3 forums is enough for me From: PatC To: Anandaji Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 00:56:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course I'm curious as hell to read RE too but I guess that's because I'm a very public person. I know that there are some people who are much more private than I am. Thanks for explaining, Ananda Ji. Great post.

Subject: Re: 3 forums is enough for me From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 13:46:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have concern about the 12 steps. Only because of the higher power thing. Big sigh...I have to respect what these people are doing despite my curiousity. Three forums are enough, and I'd love it if LG disappeared, too. It's too weird. See my post over there in response to 'MPD and 17 personalities'...I wrote it in all sincerity not sarcasm. I doubt too many will 'get' it though. I regret the day I started telling people about my DID/MPD or whatever you call it. RE is going to stay. I'll trust that it's not being injurious to anyone and mind my own business...

Subject: Re: 3 forums is enough for me From: Anandaji To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 07:22:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Obviously I have experiences with 12-Step groups. 14 years of sobriety. The groups were absolutely indespensible to my getting sober. With the thing about the 'higher power,' the beauty if the 12-stop deal is the ever-present phrase 'God as we understood God,' leaving it open to any interpretation one wishes. As a premie at the time, that was important to me, of course. AA can become cult-like for some people, though. But, thanks in large part to the supportive community, at least somewhat similar to RE, I was able to go through the changes I needed to. Anyway, I am sober and it is better than being drunk. As far as RE, we are all different. I am largely a very private person. Perhaps that is because of being in the cult. I am not sure. Others are obviously more extroverted. We are all different. For me, I find a greater comfort zone in RE. That doesn't mean that RE is better or F7 is. It is just that there are two forums. Like Chevys and Fords. A

Subject: Re: 3 forums is enough for me From: Cynthia To: Anandaji Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 11:15:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anandaji, My only experience with AA was when I had to drive a friend to meetings. She got popped for DWI, lost her license. Vermont is so rural most times it was a 35 to 55 round trip to get to meetings. So I went to meetings. I said what the hell, I'm here and have to wait, I'll go. The folks in the places we went were very Christian and they were quite preachy. The Native American's of the Dawnland Center in Montpelier are all Northest Woods Indians (their ancestors have been traced back 10,000 years!). They revised the steps to adapt to their Abekaki and Micmac religious traditions which were less intense about the higher power thing. I walked out of several AA meetings and waited in the car outside the church (that was another trigger for me too) steaming because long timer AA redneck guys were blantantly sexist. I was so glad I didn't have to stay. Whatever works to get sober I say--my only reservation about AA is the religiousity of it, vis a vis, one must go for your lifetime, which AA folks do debate. That's how I feel about it. I know that some people are more private and even shy so I understand the need for privacy, I really do. I'm an open book.:):( I'll tell you one thing though, I regret ever revealing my emotional illness in public. It's something to think about for anyone who is 'diagnosed with a label!' So I wish you well and thanks for letting me know a bit about your experience in RE. As I said in other posts here, if it's helping people in a healthy way, great. If it's a gossip room, I want to join;) Just kidding...I don't think it's a gossip room. Be well, Cynthia

Subject: Re: 3 forums is enough for me From: Carlos To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:09:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynthia, I'm sorry you got preached at by Cristian AAs who didn't understand their own program. AA doesn't have rules. All we have are 12 Steps, 12 Traditions and 12 Concepts. The tradutions are to guide us in our behavior with others, especially in terms of group behaviour. When you got mistreated, the jerks were breaking 2 of the Traditions. Tradition 3 holds that NO conformity beyond desiring to stop drinking can be required for one to be a member of AA. Clearly this leaves no room for prosletyzing about any particular faith or spiritual aproach. But it is spelled out in what we call the 'Long Form' of the Tradition, and in our book the 12 & 12. And far too few AAs even study the Big Book and the Steps, let alone anything else! Also, because earlier groups that were helping drunks recover ceased to exsist after trying to be come everything to everybody, we developed our 5th tradition, which suggests we must have a singularity of purpose, that being to helop each other get and stay sober. Many AAs realize this means people should share about other addictions in the other 12 Step fellowships rooms. Fewer realize that this means religion should be preached in the churchs, too. It is OK to talk at an AA meeting about drug use or religios use as part of our history, but it doesn't sound like that was what happened to you. All I can say is we are a society of sick people trying to get or stay well, and apologize to you.

Subject: The cyber hug factory From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 01:57:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know I like a good hug occassionally in real life but some people need them all the time - even if it's only cyber hugs. Do I need an emotikon to make that observation kinder and gentler?

Subject: Thanks, BTW From: Anandjai To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 07:26:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat --- I remember you as the first person to acknowledge me when I first posted here on New Year's Eve. I had only a few days before stumbled upon EPO and had begun my re-awakening. I timidly wrote my first message here and a while later you wrote a response. Later, you encouraged others to acknowledge me and other new arrivals. I never said 'thanks,' so I am now. Thanks! Anandaji

Subject: You're welcome, Ananda Ji From: PatC To: Anandjai Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 10:59:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know this forum is a big and chaotic place. I'm glad that I caught you when you arrived. I hope you are doing well and starting to feel stronger and healthier everyday. You arrived exactly a year after me to the day. That first year was rough for me. Well the first six months were not easy and then, just as I was beginning to feel relaxed about being out of the cult, the CAC attack took place and that was scary for a few months.

Subject: And I forgot to add.. From: PW To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 19:01:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....that there are some things that even I would post on a private forum but would NOT post here, such as the contents of a private letter which I deemed to be nice to share with a few people whom I trust and not all the premies who are undoubtedly reading this forum. I would have sent you a copy of that post but I think I only have your old email address. Actually I have noticed that JHB in particular has posted on RE encouraging people to express themselves to the wider audience of this forum when and if they feel they can. It is clearly very helpful to share insights, disclosures and opinions to a wider group and this is certainly going to continue to happen.

Subject: Re: My quarterly anti-Recent Exes rant From: Pat W To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 16:01:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, Having looked in there on and off since it started I would say it has a real value and the advantages of it's 'exclusivity' outweigh the disadvantages. So... 1) How many posters are there on RE? Quite a lot. I've noticed that there is a recent rise in people applying - these are people who have read EPO and want to discuss things privately. I see that quite a few applicants say that they have read this forum and find it too hot for their sensitivities at this time. They do not state whether it is their intention to never post here - just not for the time being obviously. 2) How many of them never post on F7? I think there must be 3 or 4 . I'm afraid this is not a definitive answer. 3) How many posters on RE will never post on F7? As I said, they haven't elaborated on their intentions with regard to posting here in the future. 4) How many posters on RE who will never post on F7 still enjoy all the benefits of reading this forum with its disclosures, insights, opinions, etc. without offering anything here in return? All of them probably since there's no obligation to post here and anyone can just read and glean away.. that's partly what's so good about this place IMO. 5) Have there been any interesting disclosures, insights, opinions, etc, on RE worth reading but which we regular folk won't ever see? There have been a few interesting disclosures going on there, just like there are going on in thousands of private conversations all over the world - which you (and I) won't know about either. My observation is that anything really significant soon finds it's way over here if it's OK with the person it comes from. Of course some people are saying things in strict confidence to the RE readers. I don't think there has been anything that would be of any real revelation to you so far actually. There have been some stories about M's kids and such-like- but only the usual teenage stuff- drink and drugs. You did miss one really hot report from a girl who had been to bed with Maharaji -full of details about his ...Nah, I won't go there...just kidding :-) 6) And this was all for what again? There are evidently an increasing number of premies (maybe even soon some who have read one of your windscreen flyers) who go to EPO and then maybe this forum and who genuinely need to talk with like-minded people. They are not though, by any means, all willing to talk in a public chat-room about Maharaji and some find the flaming too hot to handle. The private forum caters to their needs. I must say that I have noticed a distinct increase of applicants in the last few months. I would call it a 'distinctly more regular trickle.' RE obviously maintains it's privacy by membership and caters for applicants (who want some assurance that they are going to indeed be in an exclusively sympathetic environment) by exercising a little vetting I.E. existing members are invited to vote someone in who, from what is known of them, (usually a personal recommendation or simply their own email request) seems like they are not going to be a problem. Some RE's are not up for the intensity of questioning that occurs here or they are simply nervous about the public nature of the forum. Some probably don't want to be restricted to being anonymous . There's been no 'shouting' on RE...and it's working very well as far as I can see so far. Some people who have been excluded from membership maybe feel misjudged. I guess that's understandable - I'm trying to put myself in their position to see how I'd feel. It's hard to say - I'd like to think I would be philosophical. Incidentally I don't personally know about who has been rejected - I havn't got involved in those decisions, although I have indeed expressed approval for a number of applicants. I generally bend over backwards, even here, to be polite and kindly even when I'm confronting someone's views that I may think are abhorrent. That's the approach that works best for me. So I guess that as someone who is relatively uncontentious in this area I qualify as a 'not-so-recent-ex' . If I got on someone's case and upset them at RE I would not be surprised if I got the unceremonious boot - and I think that would be the appropriate way to deal with me! I hasten to add that, whatever the case, I don't consider RE as a manifestation of Katie's or anyone in particular's personal agenda. That may or may not be a factor - I don't really know or even care about that. It's not really what's happening now even if it was once. It's not important. We've all seen disagreements and 'in-fighting amongst exes over the years. That's natural and perfectly acceptable. We're not about to agree on everything. I've had my own share of run-in's a few times regarding how things were run, as you may remember. I don't believe that these are issues that I should allow to impair my judgement about the sites primary functions. I would be the first to admit that I have had some personal issues but I try not to let them get blown out of proportion. Pat W

Subject: 'Like-minded people'? Oh my! From: Jim To: Pat W Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 16:36:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And just how do these people get their like minds, I wonder? Thanks for your answers, Patrick, but I'm sorry, I find the implication inherent in that one phrase of yours chilling.

Subject: Re: 'Like-minded people'? Oh my! From: Pat W To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 16:58:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I said: There are evidently an increasing number of premies (maybe even soon some who have read one of your windscreen flyers) who go to EPO and then maybe this forum and who genuinely need to talk with like-minded people. You replied: And just how do these people get their like minds, I wonder? Thanks for your answers, Patrick, but I'm sorry, I find the implication inherent in that one phrase of yours chilling. They get their like-minds because they are all have in common the desire to consider and talk about their doubts about Maharaji. In all other respects their minds are most likely quite dissimilar. I don't believe that you are not be able to make this distiction Jim. Tell me you're not. If you are suggesting that people who talk confidentially (like they do on RE) are in danger of becoming mental-clones or brain-washed then you're dreaming. Look - the world is full of clubs of like-minded people doing all sorts of things privately from discussing flower arranging to exing from some religion - do you think they are in danger of becoming too like- minded? Do you find them chilling too? How about if I substitued the word 'sympathetic' to 'like-minded'? Would that make you happier? Since all you can do is raise this impish question (which suggests that you know the answer and yet won't say) and then interject with your mysterious conclusion that the gathering of like-minded people at RE is somehow 'chilling' - I would ask that you clarify. I for one haven't a clue what you're driving at. Perhaps you've been reading too much George Orwell lately. I dunno.

Subject: Re: 'Like-minded people'? Oh my! From: Bolly To: Pat W Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 05:12:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Flower arrangers hardly form a secret or private group. It's an activity specifically aimed at public display. You mean private like the Freemasons and such surely?

Subject: Re: 'Like-minded people'? Oh my! From: PatW To: Bolly Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 06:07:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wrote: Look - the world is full of clubs of like-minded people doing all sorts of things privately from discussing flower arranging to exing from some religion - do you think they are in danger of becoming too like- minded? Do you find them chilling too? Bolly replied: 'Flower arrangers hardly form a secret or private group. It's an activity specifically aimed at public display. You mean private like the Freemasons and such surely?' My point was that people have private meetings of all sorts which may range from something as innocuous as flower arranging to something more similar to RE may be like support group for recovering Catholics or something. The Freemasons are another example of a private/secretive group, yes. The main comparison I was drawing with RE was the privacy aspect. My mother belongs to a private flower arranging group. They are very secretive about their latest displays - not wanting the next Parish to get wind of their next dislpay for the Sunday service. They're fiercely competetive these flower arrangers you know. They are very protective of their trade secrets. Even I am not allowed to their meetings.

Subject: Yes BUT information is critical here From: Jim To: PatW Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 13:11:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If flower arrangers want to get secretive, it's probably because there's too much information floating around in their world (i.e. trade secrets). Our burgeoining wealth here consists of the information we didn't know, never had, in the cult, the stuff Maharaji wants to keep private. It also consists of the insights and opinions we all have, such as there's any value in them which others can enjoy. To the extent that any of that stuff gets stuck on the secret, private forum, we all lose out a bit. I mean everytime someone posts something really valuable there, don't you ever think how unfortunate it is that that's one comment that will never see the light of day?

Subject: Why not call it 'The Like-Minded Exes Forum'? From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 19:32:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe that's the solution. Call it 'The Like-minded Exes Forum' perhaps. Or maybe 'The Civil Exes Forum'. That way like can attract like and we can get on with things properly. Whenever a new like-minded or civil ex appears, they can apply for membership so they don't have to mix it up unnecessarily with the, ahem, 'public' forum. I mean, if you had a chance to send your kid swimming, would you send him to a public pool if there was a nice private one in the neighbourhood? Would you send them to a public school if you could afford better? No, public forums have their places. They're just not for everyone.

Subject: Yer All Fucked Up From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 20:39:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We got civil here. That ain't the issue. The issue is 'private.' We don't do 'private' here. This here is 'public.' RE does 'private.' And that's just fine with me as long as people acknowledge we do 'civil' here as well.

Subject: this is painful From: blondie To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 06:58:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I keep reading here, trying to grasp some sense of what ex premiedom is actually about; the sense I have of f7 v Ex Premie is that there's a competition as to who is purer. On one side there's the 'oh so right on' champions of f7 exposing the evils of the cult, on the other the free masonary of Ex Premie. Mind you as I'm not up to the mark to make the grade as an Ex Premie member - a fence sitter, and therefore merely resentful at being a failed aspirational I will have to wait until I can adopt a more truly pure concious before I can understand. Er I think I've been through this before. Oh shit !

Subject: What are you talking about? From: gerry To: blondie Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 10:09:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: f7 vs Ex-Premie??? What's that mean? Purer than whom? There's no such thing as Ex-Premie Mason. This 'oh so right' shit? What's that? You come in here, don't introduce yourself, and start in criticising 'oh so subtly.' I think you are a troll and I will be keeping my eye on you, blondie.

Subject: God, Gerry! From: Jim To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 11:48:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can't you tell? He (she?) means 'Recent Ex'.

Subject: Re: God, Gerry! From: God Gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 09:15:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: blondie meant that, huh? Why don't these people just talk american then. That irony crap is for elitists and other british class snobs (you know who you are.) Do I need an emoticon?

Subject: What about the spiritual aspect? From: Jim To: Pat W Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 17:35:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: By the way, I forgot to mention my other criticism of RE. Is there not a commonality amongst the posters there in that they're all still 'spiritual'? (I say 'still' because I assume that, by definition, all ex-premies were such when we were in the cult). I understand that that's a big part of the forum's identity. If that's true, then I'm concerned that there's an unnecessary and, yes, potentially harmful commingling of the notion of being a recent ex and maintaining some, if not all, of one's spiritual beliefs.

Subject: Re: What about the spiritual aspect? From: Pat W To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 18:04:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: By the way, I forgot to mention my other criticism of RE. Is there not a commonality amongst the posters there in that they're all still 'spiritual'? (I say 'still' because I assume that, by definition, all ex-premies were such when we were in the cult). I understand that that's a big part of the forum's identity. If that's true, then I'm concerned that there's an unnecessary and, yes, potentially harmful commingling of the notion of being a recent ex and maintaining some, if not all, of one's spiritual beliefs. --- No. That is definitely not the case. It is not on the agenda at all to be 'still spiritual.' As I keep saying - civility is the requirement.

Subject: I'm not following you From: Jim To: Pat W Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 17:20:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I said: There are evidently an increasing number of premies (maybe even soon some who have read one of your windscreen flyers) who go to EPO and then maybe this forum and who genuinely need to talk with like-minded people. You replied: And just how do these people get their like minds, I wonder? Thanks for your answers, Patrick, but I'm sorry, I find the implication inherent in that one phrase of yours chilling. They get their like-minds because they are all have in common the desire to consider and talk about their doubts about Maharaji. In all other respects their minds are most likely quite dissimilar. I don't believe that you are not be able to make this distiction Jim. Tell me you're not. If you are suggesting that people who talk confidentially (like they do on RE) are in danger of becoming mental-clones or brain-washed then you're dreaming. Look - the world is full of clubs of like-minded people doing all sorts of things privately from discussing flower arranging to exing from some religion - do you think they are in danger of becoming too like- minded? Do you find them chilling too? How about if I substitued the word 'sympathetic' to 'like-minded'? Would that make you happier? Since all you can do is raise this impish question (which suggests that you know the answer and yet won't say) and then interject with your mysterious conclusion that the gathering of like-minded people at RE is somehow 'chilling' - I would ask that you clarify. I for one haven't a clue what you're driving at. Perhaps you've been reading too much George Orwell lately. I dunno. --- Patrick, you say that the RE members 'get their like-minds because they are all have in common the desire to consider and talk about their doubts about Maharaji.' But how does that make them different from the rest of us? Flower arrangers might most definitely create a forum to discuss their common interest. So might people 'exing' from some religion. But I thought that's what we had done by creating this forum (and its predecessors). Wasn't it? I guess I'm not impressed that there are any unique, releveant issues of interest to even the most recent of exes that wouldn't also interest the rest of us. After all, what does an applicant to RE have to go by beyond the name 'Recent Exes'? Sorry, but I find the whole setup insulting, quite frankly. The idea that truly recent exes need a special, secret place to communicate outside the earshot of those of us who started this whole damn thing and keep it going one way or another irks me. I've never hidden that fact and don't apologise for it either. By the way, as a point of interest, your response to my post is uncharacteristically defensive, almost churlish. When your own posts have been severely scrutinized, almost harshly at times, sometimes, even by me, I admit, you've demonstrated the patience of Job. But here you seem to bristle rather quickly. Funny, eh?

Subject: Re: I'm not following you From: Pat W To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 18:02:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patrick, you say that the RE members 'get their like-minds because they are all have in common the desire to consider and talk about their doubts about Maharaji.' But how does that make them different from the rest of us? That doesn't make them different. What makes them different is that they want to talk in private and only with people who are civil. Flower arrangers might most definitely create a forum to discuss their common interest. So might people 'exing' from some religion. But I thought that's what we had done by creating this forum (and its predecessors). Wasn't it? Yes, but this is a public forum and is very open to incivility. There's a plain difference. I guess I'm not impressed that there are any unique, releveant issues of interest to even the most recent of exes that wouldn't also interest the rest of us. You're right, the issues are the same and are just the sort of things that interest you and I. After all, what does an applicant to RE have to go by beyond the name 'Recent Exes'? Sorry, but I find the whole setup insulting, quite frankly. The idea that truly recent exes need a special, secret place to communicate outside the earshot of those of us who started this whole damn thing and keep it going one way or another irks me. I've never hidden that fact and don't apologise for it either. RE was not intended as a personal insult to you or the first wave of 'internet exes' . It is the current response to the expressed need of 'truly recent exes' for a separate, private place where they can unload their feelings to sympathetic ears and talk with like-minded people. :-) If you are insulted then maybe you are immoderately concerned with your own feelings when it might be better to exercise more empathy for these people's needs. Isn't that a priority? And do you not appreciate that these people are not making an insulting statement to the founders of the ex movement? By and large they express appreciation for the efforts of you and the rest. They just want to talk in a private forum. All civil exes are welcome- you included. By the way, as a point of interest, your response to my post is uncharacteristically defensive, almost churlish. When your own posts have been severely scrutinized, almost harshly at times, sometimes, even by me, I admit, you've demonstrated the patience of Job. But here you seem to bristle rather quickly. Funny, eh? Sometimes you would try the patience of a saint Jim!

Subject: Um, Patrick, I think you're wrong there From: Jim To: Pat W Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 18:14:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: RE was not intended as a personal insult to you or the first wave of 'internet exes' . In fact, RE was indeed created by exes who felt at odds with some of the rest of us either because of personality conflicts, differences over spirituality or, in the case of Runamok who was one of its first FA's and perhaps one of the guys who started it, belief that the exes were themselves a cult and I was their leader! No kidding. Run wanted a place to bitch about me and that was about it. So since then we have a forum whose name beckons to all recent exes. They're invited to join a secret group which, if you're any reflection, can't help but feel SUPERIOR to the rest of us because you're all so wonderfully 'civil'. I'd imagine that half the posts there are just pats on the back. Am I right? :)

Subject: Re: Um, Patrick, I think you're wrong there From: Pat W To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 18:43:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In fact, RE was indeed created by exes who felt at odds with some of the rest of us either because of personality conflicts, differences over spirituality or, in the case of Runamok who was one of its first FA's and perhaps one of the guys who started it, belief that the exes were themselves a cult and I was their leader! No kidding. Run wanted a place to bitch about me and that was about it. So since then we have a forum whose name beckons to all recent exes. They're invited to join a secret group which, if you're any reflection, can't help but feel SUPERIOR to the rest of us because you're all so wonderfully 'civil'. Runamok never posts there. There's no vibe of people feeling 'Superior' because they are civil and 'secrecy' is not so apt as 'private' to describe the goings-on. I'd love to carry on but it's 2.35 pm here and my eye-lids are drooping. I can answer all your suspicions but I'm too dog tired now- I'm so sorry. Bed calls. Later.... I'd imagine that half the posts there are just pats on the back. Am I right? No...Look, can't you just agree with me and I can go to bed..pleeeeese?

Subject: Go to bed? Now??!! We just started From: Jim To: Pat W Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 19:09:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patrick, my partner and I here know how much you want to help us out and we've just got a few more questions for you. Patrick! Wake up there, pal. Patrick, come on, Patrick, just a few more questions. You can sleep when it's all over. We'll make sure the guard doesn't disturb you. We;ll even move you down the cell block where it's a bit quieter. Get you another blanket even. Patrick! Wake up, Patrick! Shit, Tom, I think this is getting pretty hopeless. The guy's slurring his words so much I can barely understand him. Is any of this gonna hold up in court? Maybe we should just let him sleep. Well, I'll try him again... Patrick! Okay, this is ridiculous. Let's move him back to his cell and start again in a few hours.

Subject: Re: Go to bed? Now??!! We just started From: PatW To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 19:25:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're not going to believe this but I'm still here..Listen..you lost OK? I had the last word . It better be anyway - I stayed up till 3.30 to get this one in...

Subject: OK, I lost -- go to bed! :) [nt] From: Jim To: PatW Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 19:28:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hooray! Thanks! nt From: PW To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 19:36:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Like-Mindedness...PatW From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 17:32:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know what like-mindedness means in the context of RE. I know what it means to me in the context of a cult. I don't want to blurr the two. If I assume that by like-mindedness you mean that you all on RE are in agreement that you want the privacy and confidentiality available on a passworded forum in order to be able to discuss very personal issues, then fine. I have a hunch that's just what's happening. I don't think that I object to the confidentiality. However, for some of us exes--not all, but some--the existence of anything confidential may be construed to be secret, which has it's connotations. Semantics can be obscured on this format. I do believe that there are those who may be too fragile to post here. I know I'm a loose cannon at times and I empathize with someone who may want a slower, easy going format. Kind of like when FM radio first came on the air way back when...no pressure. (I'm not being sarcastic, btw):):) Best, Cynthia

Subject: And now, walking up to the microphone From: Lesley To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 15:26:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: we have Lotus Eater, she has just discovered her Lord is a Lard, and is trying to clear her throat, littered with the debris of disuse, and say something intelligible...... 'Unaccustomed as I am to public speaking', and facing an invisible crowd which includes people she has shared her life with for the last few decades who are likely to go off like faulty grenades if she uses a word wrong, the next time she sees them; a crowd which includes people who are as hurt and confused as she has so recently felt, and a crowd which includes a deal of suspicion as to whether Lotus Eater is dinky di, or meretricious troll..... In answer to your question why, I suggest that a confidential forum, away from premies, has a lot to offer the exiter. It is over two years now since I learnt the 'awful truth' about my guru. I have had such a need to talk it through, I could have bored a continent given half the chance. Um, riffling through my file, woefully fully of holes, but, er, here's one of my early recent exes posts: Rationality and emotionality. Have you ever tried telling a young girl you don’t believe in fairies? My guess, if you have, is that the response you got was one of gentle concern, and the question, perhaps, 'Don’t you believe in magic, then?' I recently read a book (Gallileos Daughter by Dava Sobel) which highlighted the psycholgical split in our thinking. When Copernicus first said that we go round the sun, not the sun round us, it was as if we went ‘errrrr’. You can imagine how it must have been, it must have seemed to contradict the very evidence of our senses, after all we had watched the sun rise and set every day of our lives. It seemed to take off slowly, Copernicus was able to publish, even though, at that time books were okayed by the Church; but then, Gallileo turned up and said we can use our ability to think logically to make sense of the evidence of our senses and determine, at least from our necessarily limited perspective, what is the truth of the matter, and the evidence mounts up that we go round the sun. Now we had a problem; here was a man, devout believer in God, Catholic to the end, saying that we were not the centre of the universe, which was the current belief of the day. This, because it was specifically bound up in the relationship we had developed with our omnipotent God, directly challenged our deepest convictions. It appears, from Dava Sobels book, that he struggled with the dilemma to the end of his life. Well, in my estimation, we’re still struggling. Gallileo may have sat down and tried to resolve it, but in many other countries inquiring minds had the bit between the teeth, and they were not about to sit down and talk when a whole new approach to understanding life was firing. And those who disliked the loss of authority and certainty reacted badly. To me, it seems that we put it in the too hard basket, and have been attempting instead to learn how to tolerate mutually exclusive beliefs in one living body, something we have approached with all seriousness, dedication and inventiveness, and a marked lack of success in terms of happy healthy living. Naturally enough, we have used the tools at hand, our own innate abilities, such as compartmentalising, bonding, trickery, in ways that hurt, because we have turned them on ourselves, constituting, really, self abuse. I have come to the conclusion that this is a bad idea, I think we are one organism enveloped in skin, and it is not our rationality and emotionality that are mutually exclusive, just some of the ideas we have picked up. And, boy, do we have some silly ones. For instance, why does a man buy a beautiful large tract of land, rip it to pieces, subdivide it into the smallest pieces he can, then go home, get out his trowel, and work in his garden??????????????? I do not think we have an easy road ahead of us, and maybe we will go down in a ball of smoke trying, we know from our own personal journeys into reintegration how hairy it can get,……and we also know how good it feels. Still want more, Jim? lol, all the best, Lesley.

Subject: Great book but what's your point? From: Jim To: Lesley Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 16:38:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, Lesley, you lost me. What's your point?

Subject: see what I mean From: Lesley To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 21:04:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My point in the Rationality v Emotionality post is that pre copernicus, knowledge was not divided from belief, the priests said we were the centre of the universe, and so did the scientists. And I am suggesting that the results of not resolving that dilemma have produced an effect on the way we are, and I have to get off line,.....thanks for asking, though!

Subject: Now I see ... but disagree From: Jim To: Lesley Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 21:23:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK, Lesley, I follow you now. Funny, though, that's not what I got from the book at all. I was struck with the strongest impression about how unredeemingly terrible religion is and how valiant Galileo was in taking the first brave steps to extricate his mind from its stranglehold. In other words, I don't see any 'unresolved dilemna', not now anyway. The church was a powerful, ignorant oppressor. It cast a dark, dark cloak over its subjects but, fortunately, perhaps inevitably, reason and science pierced holes in that cover through the thoughts and words of Galileo. That's what I got from it anyway (besides a fascinating insight into Italy then and the amazing character of Galileo's daughter). Anyway, may I ask, do you have a larger point relevant to my criticism of RE?

Subject: Re: Now I see ... but disagree From: Lesley To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 14:39:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ok, that last post was a bit scratchy because i only had a short time, now, coffee beside me..... Jim, call me dense, but the only actual criticism you have made that I have picked up on is that you consider recent exes to be a place where you won't have your spiritual beliefs questioned, and yet that is all I have done there, question my own. You expressed a concern that it's existence meant that some posters would be huddled off in a corner rather than contributing here, imo, that doesn't happen. I know there is a bit more to this that I have not addressed, I cannot do so because I am just me. My point about Recent Exes was just that a private forum versus a public forum gives the new exiter a place where they can talk without giving offence to their premie friends, people who they have shared a large portion of their lives with. It's not instead of, it's as well as, and probably has done the same for me as many others have got through developing an email correspondence with other exiters. Because it moves at a much slower and more considered pace, it gave me the chance to write such posts as the one above, which even I, and I wrote it, had to scratch my head a bit over to remember what I was on about. Two years on, and I have gotten much more pithy. Here is an extract from a recent letter I wrote: ....told me that he did tell you about Mr Rawat, aka Maharaji, who was the golden child Satguru, come with more powers than ever before, Guru Maharaj Ji, ' Surrender the reins of your life to me, and I will give you such a peace as will never die', Lord of the Universe who first came to the West, from Hardwar, India in 1970, complete with malas of flowers around his neck and a Krishna crown. Okay, okay, I know it sounds too ridiculous for words, but it is a trap that many many people of my generation fell into. I was eighteen years old, an innocent, I had no comprehension that a person would lie about something as serious as being the latest living messiah to hit the planet, sole fount of God's Love. When you think about it, it is not that unreasonable either, what with Jesus Christ an' all, we are expecting a second coming, aren't we, and from acid we had learnt that there was more to this god stuff than church on Sundays. And, of course, we did it to eachother, with our sincere belief. I'm sure if Rawat had come up to me personally and told me he was the Messiah, that the problems I had were because I was missing a live connection to God, which he could provide, I would no more have believed him than I did a friend who told me he was Jesus, and he ended up giving away everything he owned, um, including his clothes. Which is quite different to Rawat who has lived high on the hog out of the money, right down to gold plating on the toilet bowl in his jet. I understand now, it is quite a traditional family business in India. But, he didn't tell me personally, he left that to his followers, his organisation. I had no idea that when he sat on stage and talked, it was a stage show, any more than the person to the left, or the right of me, we thought he spoke the truth, and we listened. The best way I can describe it is like a splinter of superstitious thinking, in the end it broke me apart. From the point at which I discovered that if you just trusted, you were rewarded with a feel good experience, the experiencing of which, I was being reliably informed was the purpose of my life, and, though it didn't quite fulfil the bill of goods I had originally signed up for, nonetheless smelt of it; and I had accepted that any shortfall in perfect bliss was entirely due to me, not the precious Master and his perfect Gift, I was up shitcreek without a paddle, just didn't know it yet. Obviously, I have done a lot of reading, talking and thinking in recent times, and have broadened my perspective. I realise that this splinter of superstitious thinking is not just the preserve of one guru, or eastern religions, or even all religions. It seems to me that underlying the need for a god is nothing more nor less than the feeling first generated as a baby for one's parent, that has remained unchanged despite the change in reality, ie adulthood. There seems to me to be mounting evidence of a direct corollation between how real, how much your life is actually involved in living the lie, and the damage sustained. Putting it in Catholic terms I mean a nun living in a convent might develop stigmata, or a ready conversation with God and the Devil, whilst a member of the laity who only goes to mass at christmas time, is merely hampered by the superstitious strain of thinking. Accidentally, I got directed to a site on the internet set up by people who are ex followers of 'Maharaji, Lord of Love', www.ex-premie.org, where I discovered the 'awful truth' about my guru. There are such sites for most of the different cults, if you go looking. I think they are very helpful for people exiting cults, you will find people who know exactly where you are coming from, it makes things easier to work out if the people you are talking to are familiar with the details of your particular trap...... So I think you can gather from that, Jim, that I largely agree with what you said in your above post, but, what struck me in reading Dava Sobel's elegant book, was the effect that his discoveries had on Gallileo. It must have been a very exciting time to be alive in terms of understanding life, much as it is today, being in contact via the written word with other inquiring minds, even in other countries, but horror of horrors, what was turning up challenged the accepted wisdom of the day which, (and this is central to what I am on about), was arbitrated by the same institution that arbitrated matters of faith. Poor old Gallileo must have felt like a cat whose has spent the entire night hunting, and now, tired but triumphant returns home and with love and loyalty drops the mouse on the table, only to get into trouble for it. My guess is that when I wrote Rationality v Emotionality, I was pissed at some development proposal that was going through, a regular occurrence when you live in an area that still has more grass than concrete. The question I am addressing, though, is how come a person can have such opposed values that they can look at a magnificent tract of land, hundreds of acres, trees, water, history, and bring in the bulldozers, kerb and gutter it into the smallest possible pieces, knocking down almost every tree in the process, totally focussed on making as much money as possible and completely ignoring such things as aesthetics, or the comfort of the people who will be living there, and what will happen to their sewerage. And then go home and indulge an eye for beauty in his garden. Why is it like this, why not subdivide that land into large enough pieces that it is not totally destroyed, that the number of people living on it are not excessive, how come a developer does not put a monetary value on having a clear and happy conscience, it is not a lack of vision, or he would not enjoy his own garden. It occurred to me, that apart from the more often quoted reason of greed, that we have compartmentalised 'practical, logical, concrete requirements' from 'conscience, happiness, human comfort requirements'. And instead of reuniting these interests, which, imo, are not mutually exclusive, have developed a sort of balancing act of dysfuntions where the warriors of consumerism, the bullies, are enabled by the 'leave it to God, turn the other cheek', Church. Since discovering that my rawatworld view was wrong, I kinda felt like I was eighteen again, I remembered all the questions I had, things like well if life is sacred, and animals are alive, why do we kill them, and does a carrot really scream when it's pulled. Painful as it is, I rather think that it is in looking at such questions, that we can heal the rift between belief and knowledge.

Subject: No, I don't buy it From: Jim To: Lesley Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 12:22:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Lesley, I don't buy the need for any truly recent ex (as opposed to people like Patrick W, Fran or JHB who just happen to have be 'Recent Exes' because that's the name of the secret club they've joined) to have to post in a separate, private forum. Any concern they have to not be dissed, etc. by their premie friends can be accomplished by posting anonymously which worked just fine for people before RE. The benefits to this approach are many. On is that the person doesn't settle into unnecessarily prolonging their identity as 'recent ex'; everyone here, including of course all the not-quite-yet-exes lurking out there, can read what they have to say and they can, as well, interact with a broader cross-section of people. It's just richer from a human interaction perspective. Honestly, did you know that the real reason Recent Exes exists, the reason they never advertise, is that the forum came about as a protective harbour for spiritual beliefs on the basis that members there promise to not challenge or probe such beliefs? Is that spelled out to applicants or new members? Or is that just the tacit group understanding that all truly recent exes pick up on their own? The other thing I resent is the idea that this self-appointed group of people (exes who happen to cherish their spirituality and don't want to argue about it) deserve to call themselves some sort of welcoming committee for people leaving the cult. Who appointed them? You know it wouldn't be so bad if the recent exes truly did treat that forum as a stepping stone to full, regular involvement here for people who want to post as exes. But they don't. It's seen as an alternative forum. Helen, the FA, for instance, has made it clear, as have others, that they have no interest in posting on this forum. That's their home. They like it better. Whatever. But why should actual recent exes be invited to join something that's so intentionally cut off from the rest of us? As for your substantive comments about the tension between faith and reason, what can I tell you? It's a struggle for all of us who've had feet in both boats. But this is every bit as good a place to discuss those issues as the misnomered, private and secret 'Recent Exes Forum', I know that much.

Subject: In fact, I'm angry now -- Change the name already! From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 12:36:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Boy, there I go again! Now I've gotten myself all angry. I am really bothered by the whole set up. EPO advertises a forum for recent exes but really it's a forum for people who want to get away from the regular, open forum for one reason or another. Call it 'The Grudge Forum' perhaps. The 'Holier Than Thou Forum'. Just don't advertise it as a natural stopping place for anyone leaving the cult. That's bullshit.

Subject: Re: I'm angry now -- Change the name already! From: Vicki To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 06:44:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been thinking about this thread and have re-read it several times. At the risk of getting lambasted, I have to say you're wrong in your assumptions. And maybe that's what is aggravating for you as a lawyer who is used to full disclosure. Your studious mind won't rest until you have all stones uncovered. But there is something that I haven't seen mentioned. If I missed it, I'll stand corrected. EPO is what counts. People only land on either forum from EPO, unless something out of the ordinary happens. They then have a choice, public vs private. It is up to them which avenue to pursue. F7, being public, affords people a chance to read first and decide second. Recent ex'es, by it's very nature, is a slower road to take. For some folks, it is a necessary road. Either they don't want premies, especially EV monitors to read their posts, or they are timid. Either way, both forums use privacy. How? Everytime someone on F7 says, 'E-mail me if you wish to talk more privately', public posting has ceased. Many times I have seen a discussion leave a thread after this invitation. I've respected the person's choice as needing to talk out of the public eye, for whatever the reason might be. The real nuts and bolts is EPO. After EPO comes the support, which is what F7 and Recent Ex'es offer. Support, debate, conversation, comradship, etc. It's what we all need exiting. One's cup of tea might not be another's. Your career involves putting yourself on the line publicly everyday. Not everyone else can. They either don't have the nerves or inclination. For them it just isn't possible. Instead of arguing who's right and who's wrong, shouldn't we be congratulating each forum for having standards which aim to help anyone who was ever a devotee of Guru Maharaji and consequently suffered from it?

Subject: Is that fair? From: Jim To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 08:58:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So the forum doesn't matter? Well that's convenient for an RE member to think, I guess. Alleviates any burden one might have of any lingering social responsibility or anything vis-a-vis lurkers, etc. Tell me, is it not the norm for RE members to read F7 and to get whatever pleasure, information, entertainment from it? That's just not reciprocated, right? And I'm supposed to think what again, Vicki? There's a bullshit mixture of things here, I'm afraid. Recent Exes evolve from people who aren't yet ready to post in public to people who aren't naturally inclined to do so. Could that have anything to do with the fact that the majority of the old-timers on RE have turned their back on F7?

Subject: Re: Is that fair? From: Vicki To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 09:31:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: See, Jim, you are a lovely person, who I personally enjoy, but here you've twisted my words. I did not say the forum didn't matter. What I did say was people end up on either forum from EPO, unless some quirk happens. Do I think people post on Recent Ex'es and not post here? Yes. Otherwise you would have had an even more hot debate from them. If you think F7 is 'pleasure, information, entertainment' value, then maybe you aren't thinking in terms of recently exiting people who are too devestated to be thinking along these lines. Lives are shattered after the expose on EPO. Maybe we need to rethink just what we, as in all of us, want to do here. Aren't you one of the first people to have started the forum or am I wrong? Wasn't it started so people could talk to each other and feel some sort of compradship, like vets back from a war? I don't know what old timers have 'turned their backs on F7', but even if they did, what difference does it make? There's lots of wonderful new people that post here. And there's lots of wonderful 'oldtimers' that post here. It's just who prefers what flavor. But the main reason either of these exist is to put Rawat and knowledge under the spotlight and our association with him, is it not? And how many times have you e-mailed with F7 posters from a thread that the rest of F7 doesn't get to see?

Subject: Re: Is that fair? From: Jim To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 12:01:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: See, Jim, you are a lovely person, who I personally enjoy, but here you've twisted my words. I did not say the forum didn't matter. What I did say was people end up on either forum from EPO, unless some quirk happens. Sorry if I distorted your meaning but I took your saying that EPO is what counts as a way of saying that the forum doesn't. You didn't actually say that and the meaning's different. My apologies. Do I think people post on Recent Ex'es and not post here? Yes. Otherwise you would have had an even more hot debate from them. Yes, well that's what concerns me. If you think F7 is 'pleasure, information, entertainment' value, then maybe you aren't thinking in terms of recently exiting people who are too devestated to be thinking along these lines. Lives are shattered after the expose on EPO. Yes, lives are shattered. But that's just one facet of the process, even for new exes. Anyway, who's to say they can't and won't get every bit as much sensitive reception here as they would on RE? See, I resent the implication that somehow RE's 'nicer', staffed with careful, loving professionals for all your recent ex-premie needs. What a myth! Maybe we need to rethink just what we, as in all of us, want to do here. Aren't you one of the first people to have started the forum or am I wrong? Wasn't it started so people could talk to each other and feel some sort of compradship, like vets back from a war? Right on both counts. I don't know what old timers have 'turned their backs on F7', but even if they did, what difference does it make? There's lots of wonderful new people that post here. And there's lots of wonderful 'oldtimers' that post here. It's just who prefers what flavor. It only makes a difference in that new posters, especially tentative lurkers, might take their first hesitant steps posting on RE, largely because of the name. When they do, they're welcomed into a forum that has a number of people who have, for various reasons they would gladly explain, I'm sure, if you asked them, stopped posting here -- or, if they post, posting very rarely here as they don't really consider it their 'home'. So that's the example recent exes get. See the problem? But the main reason either of these exist is to put Rawat and knowledge under the spotlight and our association with him, is it not? Yes, indeed! So tell me please how a secret, private forum accomplishes anything in that regard? And how many times have you e-mailed with F7 posters from a thread that the rest of F7 doesn't get to see? That's different. Forum posters share the goods here unless there's some good, specific reason to not. Email behind the scenes doesn't stop that.

Subject: Re: Is that fair? II From: Vicki To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 14:20:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, here goes. Point 1) Thank you. I always knew you were a gentleman, just a stickler for every shred of truth. Point 2) I also think posters on Recent Ex don't read F7. That's why they don't post here. I'm also inclined to believe that perhaps people who used to post here don't post anywhere but prefer the occasional e-mail with those they consider close friends now. Point 3) It's not an issue of Recent Ex'es being staffed by nicer, sensitive people. It's an issue of privacy. Many times I've backed off from discussing something because I don't want the EV monitors to have access to it. F7 is filled with many different personalities, and therefore will always provide the gamat of responses. It can be fairly daunting for someone who's in the whirlwind to hit the first key. Maybe f7 needs to offer in glaring big letters the opportunity for a newbie to talk privately before posting. Or if it's there, make it even more obvious. Hell, you scared the crapola out of me once and it was an 'old poster' who calmed me down and explained what a puppy dog you really are! 5) Perhaps this is where the hard feelings are, in assumption to what could be said. The benchmark of both forums should always be integrity. Just as when Moley was attacked here, and F7 nipped that in the bud. The purpose of Recent Ex'es isn't to discuss personalities other than Rawat, is it? 6) The purpose of the two forums are to be support, are they not? Support for the individual. Some people can take group therapy, and some people can't. It's not that they will say anything especially different, it's just that they don't do well in group settings. If it takes a more private setting for someone to get well from being in Rawat's world for the majority of their life, then that's what's important. It's to put our association with him under the spotlight for ourself first and foremost, otherwise the individual ceases to be important. And I think we all had lifetimes of that under Rawat's spell. 7) I disagree. E-mails from threads on F7 are a way to take the topic into a private space, pure and simple. It's helpful and necessary at times for sanity. 'Sharing the goods' is well and good, and can be enormously helpful, but not at the expense of the person. It's an assumption to think that goods are shared there that aren't eventually shared here. Just by the revelation identites can be exposed that put people at risk in their private lives. Until they are able to take that course of action, it is advantageous that everyone has a place to go. I would hate to think there's someone out there in dire need that needs support but is paralyzed and couldn't get it because of their need for privacey. And I hope I got the numbers corresponding correctly because I am hopeless at cutting and pasting on this format. I would like to add that your pursuit of uncovering the truth is valuable beyond belief. With time and patience, you may see the fruits of your labors from those that when braver and stronger will venture over and make that first tentative public posting.

Subject: That looks like a step backwards, I'm afraid From: Jim To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 20:28:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: With time and patience, you may see the fruits of your labors from those that when braver and stronger will venture over and make that first tentative public posting. Vicki, Please see my post to Lesley which was meant for you as well. I'm sorry but I see this whole notion of the extremely sensitive recent ex as something of a creation serving the purpose of those who wanted a separate forum for other reasons altogether. I'm not saying there isn't a lot of loss, confusion and anger involved in leaving the cult; I'm just saying it's as liberating as it is debilitating and nothing that we can't all talk about. We did it together for years and that was just fine. In fact, everyone benefitted. New exes had a whole panoply of reactions to get something from. Old exes enjoyed the interaction on a number of levels, much as I'm sure the old exes on the Recent Exes forum do now and, perhaps just as importantly, not yet exes, i.e. lurking or even posting premies, got something from that as well. What a shame, then, to lock these guys away with people who will never really encourage them to leave RE behind and share their insights and experiences here as those people themselves, like I said, don't like it here for their own, personal reasons. But, having said that, I'm willing to drop it all. After all, what do I know? :)

Subject: Re: That looks like a step backwards, I'm afraid From: Vicki To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 06:19:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Evidently you have known a lot. You are like a little boy who started a club and is mad because someone else started one as well. This is not the purpose of either of these forums. If you think they are, then you are missing the real point. It is to help people, many who have given over half their life, in devotion to Maharaji regain some sanity. You treat it as if every posting must have a winner and a loser. This isn't a court of law. Living with knowledge is a vast vista of grayness. You want to read every person's posting about their experience for what purpose? You are out and have been out for years. You have a career and could have had marriage and children, if you so chose. Your life is not in shambles after waking up thirty years later and thousands and thousands of dollars lighter. You are not on the verge of a nervous breakdown. So tell me again, for what purpose do you need to read someone who is in dire distress post's? So you might get a new, inside piece of detail? You keep treating people exiting like a new piece of evidence to prove your point, once again, counselor, and you are doing the very thing the cult did over and over and over, exploiting individuals. Grow up and get over the fact that people don't want to post on F7 for their own reasons. These aren't sandboxes where children play and one reigns supreme over another. These are lifelines to people when they are in their darkest hours.

Subject: Blimey Jim From: Lesley To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 15:21:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You do like plenty of blood on the carpet. Actually, I think I'll go and put the kettle on now...I guess I'm not averse to a bit of bloodletting either, and I do like to get to the bottom of things. I really do not like my involvement with Recent Exes being characterised as membership of a club any more than I like premies saying the same thing about my involvement with this forum. I can, and only do, answer for myself. Initially, I did not apply to RE, having just crawled out into the public arena, I had a strong desire to stay there, I like what you say about the richness of a broader human interaction. There is a certain ironic humour in you now explaining the value of anonymity to me, at the time there was a lot of talk about NOT being anonymous. I was pretty quick to lose the anonymity, and do not regret it, I immediately felt the benefits of getting my feet on the ground, but as soon as I did, I did also come under a certain amount of local pressure. And that takes a certain amount of time to sort yourself through, you gotta remember how fragile and vulnerable you feel at that time. There were times when I relied, RELIED on reading your posts, Jim, and I also very much needed those welcoming, understanding words from KatieH. I was very vulnerable, and the point came when I needed to look after myself, and a decision I made was that continuing to try and talk on forum 5 was damaging my self confidence, so I stopped. As I still needed to talk, I applied to RE. As far as I'm concerned, within the parameters of what it is, and with consideration for the other participants, I am entitled to make a forum where I contribute what I want it to be. And that is what I did. On a smaller, quieter, private forum, I stopped feeling marginalised, I got what I needed, and if recent exes is inhabited with people who are primarily there because they don't want their spiritual beliefs dissed, which is entirely NOT what I found, then I must have been pretty painful company, here's another of my posts (see how I'm proving you wrong, Jim, in saying that there isn't an interactive value to RE): .....I have been thinking a lot about the religious aspect of society these last few days. You said that we joined the cult for a lot of different reasons, I'm not so sure about that. Yes, in a myriad ways our circumstances, character and vulnerablities were different, and maybe we did join for a variety of reasons, but the reason why we found ourselves in a cult, the 'how it happened' is largely the same, imo. It seems to me that many people come to the conclusion that Maharaji is fake, carefully peel him off, but don't wish to question their underlying childhood beliefs. And it is those inherited childhood beliefs that are, imo, the reason why we all joined. We are overwhelmingly, globally, a society of god believers. In the same way a premie will say that it is your choice whether you believe in Maharaji or not, whilst privately thinking that maharaji is the centre of the universe and if you don't know that you're stuffed, and an ex premie will say, no this is not optional, it is not a real choice, there is a fact here that cannot be ignored, the fact is that Maharaji is not the centre of the universe, this is wrong, it is a lie; a god believer will say that it is your choice if you believe in god or not, whilst privately thinking that god is the centre of the universe and if you don't know that you're stuffed, and an ex god believer will say, no, this is not a real choice, it is a fake explanation, it is wrong. And we were all god believers, that was the receptor that was ready and waiting to accept the bait. Dismantle that receptor and what relevance does the words of a preacher have? Maybe they can delineate the problem, but without the basic 'belief in god' receptor, their 'solution' looks facile, fake and superstitious. In my opinion, you can believe and believe as much as you want, and indeed have an experiential result from practising your beliefs that has a certain effect, but facts is facts, you can believe as much as you like that there is a chair right behind you, but when you commit yourself to that belief and sit down, it becomes germane whether there actually is a chair there or not as to whether you end up on the floor or not. Personally, I think we pay a huge price for making such a massive assumption a 'matter of choice', instead of answering the question, is it true or false. Just like we supported eachother's belief in 'the world of knowledge'; as a society, through all the religions, we support eachother's belief in god. Back to the subject at hand: I am not trying to sweep history under the carpet, just speaking for myself and what I have found. But, Jim, surely you must understand that sometimes softly softly catchee mousie.

Subject: I stand corrected From: Jim To: Lesley Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 16:19:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Lesley, Ever since my last post, I've had some misgivings. Rather than saying 'Change the name already' I should have said 'at least' -- 'Change the name at least!' :) Okay, so you posted a general challenge about spiritual beliefs. Good for you (no sarcasm there). But I bet that post didn't exactly spark a robust discussion, did it? I've been told several times that one of the hallmarks of RE is what I've described it to be -- no one challenges others' spiritual beliefs (or, if they do, they do it ever so mildly, one would hardly notice.) So what happened when you posted that? My guess is that you were tolerated but not encouraged. Am I right? Or am I inviting you to violate RE's pledge to secrecy? Sorry about that. :) You say you don't like to see your involvement in RE characterized as membership in a club but, like it or not, Lesley, isn't that exactly what it is? Private application process (not all make it, by the way) and secret interaction? F7's not like that at all. You're right, in a way, that I'm inconsistent re anonymity. I do discourage it generally but I understand how new posters, new exes in particular, might need that level of comfort. Over time, though, that might change. In any event, anonymity takes care of the problem. There's no need to hide in the closet and whisper. (Sorry! :)) Finally, why do you say you felt 'marginalized' here? What's THAT about?

Subject: Robust discussions From: Lesley To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 14:32:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't really come round that often anywhere in my experience. I would imagine you have found the same thing, though I guess courtroom experience must be a whole new ball game. Well, I guess I will have to divulge my membership in another club then, it's even called a cult for heaven's sake, it's the Terracotta Cult, membership slowly growing, dollars and admiration gratefully accepted, no public interface, just word of mouth......eek....what have I become, what's happening to me, get that hamster out of my cereal bowl. No, really, Jim, why use the word secret to describe a private forum any more than you would use it for anything else of a similar nature. Secrecy to me implies that you are hiding information from another that rightfully should have that information. I do realise that not speaking up can create a situation where there is an implication of secrecy, and I have done all I can to correct that. Wot's the marginalisation all about?, mainly, I reckon a matter of mathematics. If you have a strong voice, not a quiet one, then if you enter a room with a hundred people in it, or a room with fifteen people in it, it won't make much difference to you. But if your voice is fairly quiet and slow, it makes a big difference. In, and of itself, that is not so serious as it can feel to an exiter. I think I described it here once as open heart surgery, the deepest issues of trust are being touched on, not to put too fine a point on it, I would say that my emotional state was pretty similar to a young child, including the obstacle of not yet having learnt to talk properly, just being ignored is enough to make one feel marginalised, and in a room of a hundred people that is going to happen, it is just mathematics. Do you have a serious enough objection to a private forum that it outweighs the value of a more compatible arena for people at a time like that? From my perspective, this has been a great conversation, in the having of which, a lot of the concerns we have both expressed are being answered. So, to express myself emotionally, with all the horrible inappropriateness of a raw new exiter, something I figure I can get away with here, because it is something we all can largely understand and relate to, you have earnt my affection, Jim, with your stand for people, and for commonsense, I have personally benefitted from it, and do not forget.

Subject: Let's not baby each other, shall we? From: Jim To: Lesley Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 20:13:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think I described it here once as open heart surgery, the deepest issues of trust are being touched on, not to put too fine a point on it, I would say that my emotional state was pretty similar to a young child, including the obstacle of not yet having learnt to talk properly, just being ignored is enough to make one feel marginalised, and in a room of a hundred people that is going to happen, it is just mathematics. Do you have a serious enough objection to a private forum that it outweighs the value of a more compatible arena for people at a time like that? Lesley, I barely know either your or Vicki but I honestly respect you both. You're both intelligent and well-intentioned and, most importantly, you both say good things about me regularly enough which, of course, is a good thing. :) But I'd be patronizing you if I didn't tell you that my eyes roll upwards some(looking for what, I don't know) when I read your florid account of recent ex hypersensitivity. I'm sorry, but I'm reminded of the Darshan Recovery Rooms trend in the late 70's. Suddenly, premies had found a whole new layer of fragility to be sensitive to and woe unto he who'd raise an eyebrown about it all. Lots and lots of recent exes disengaged from the cult with the assistance of EPO over the last many years and they always managed long before there were any protective, yes secret and private, harbours, let alone operating rooms, for their shelter. But, whatever eh? It's not that big a deal one way or the other really and I've had my say. The Recent Exes Forum can continue to attract recent and un-recent exes; they can continue to post there for years, I'm sure, at which point they won't even be able to relate to posting over here. They can continue to watch whatever conflicts arise here with premies or even amongst ourselves as other peoples' affairs that don't really concern them and everyone can be happy.

Subject: Well, Jim From: Lesley To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 00:46:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just have you have never walked a mile in my shoes, I have never walked a mile in yours. My guess is, though, that at some time in a person's life, assuming it is long and varied, a time comes when they feel fragile again, maybe several, next time it happens to you you will remember what it feels like.

Subject: clarification From: Lesley To: Lesley Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 15:49:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just realised my last comment is easy to misunderstand. So, to put it bluntly: in my experience, if you have some unfinished business, if you want to communicate with someone who does not want to communicate with you, before anything else you have to concede them that right not to talk to you, then you can address the reason for the situation and maybe negotiate a way forward.

Subject: Yes, clarification indeed From: Jim To: Lesley Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 17:07:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How about this for some real clarification? 'The Recent Exes Forum is a collection of exes who share one of three common attributes: either they're recent exes and want to post in private where no premie (or potentially uncivil ex-premie) might respond; or they're spiritually-oriented and want a place to post where no one's going to needle them about anything they think; or they're pissed off and angry at some or several of the posters at F7 and want their own private forum. The term 'Recent Exes' gives the forum its greatest justification so that's why we're keeping the name. This way, truly recent exes are bound to apply and, when they do, we can show them how much nicer life is here than on F7. Why, if they're like some of us, they might never choose to leave! So why not leave the anti-cult efforts and all that nasty business to the less civil types who seem to thrive on such frisson? Join RE (if you can!) and have the best of both worlds. You can lurk and enjoy anything you want on F7 but for real quality conversation, you can thumb your nose at it!' Maybe that'd be a better intro, huh? :)

Subject: What's positive about questioning stuff... From: Cynthia To: Lesley Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 16:16:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Leslie, That was a post and a half. Thanks for that. I am beginning to see something positive coming from even questioning the existence of a private forum. Some of you have come out and told that you post on RE. That helps about the 'secrecy' issue. I'm not suggesting we are provided a list, either. I see that you who do post there are people I trust. I don't particularly care if I'm ever discussed there because--I simply don't care. If anything, I hope RE folks learn from my mistakes posting here! Reading your posts, Leslie, I do see that you are dealing with your growth out of the cult and that you are benefitting from RE. That's good enough for me. Although I still have a problem with 12 steps.:) But that's me. Best, Cynthia

Subject: twelve steps From: Lesley To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 13:43:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Agree about twelve steps, from my perspective that is swopping one monkey on your back for another, I think one of the first steps is to acknowledge a higher power in your life.....I have never had a problem with alcohol so I can't really comment, but.... From what I've observed, and I have been contributing to RE for about eighteen months, it really is not a place where other people get talked about behind closed doors, but I do not want to have my involvement there characterised as membership in a club, I can, and do, only answer for myself. Thanks for your kind comments, Cynth, all the best, Lesley

Subject: Let new exes have RE, for feck sake! From: Marianne To: Lesley Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 20:18:45 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Jeez, is this really a debate, Jim? New exes want a cyberplace where they can sort out their emotional/spiritual/familial crises away from public scrutiny???? Let them have it for as long as they need it. Who cares what they talk about? Isn't the important issue that they have a place to find themselves after years of cult involvement? My impression of RE is that it is a place for new exes or fence sitters to express doubts they have been fearful of admitting for years. What is wrong with providing a nurturing environment for those questions and concerns to grow? Leaving the cult behind is a process, and can involve family, friends, jobs, community, etc. It is a different process for everyone. So what if people need privacy in order to solve their multi-faceted cult issues? I say let people resolve these issues in their own ways. If RE helps them extricate themselves from the clutches of the cult, more power to RE and its participants. Leave people who are in the vulnerable stages of departure alone! Marianne

Subject: Re: Let new exes have RE, for feck sake! From: Jim To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 20:38:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jeez, is this really a debate, Jim? New exes want a cyberplace where they can sort out their emotional/spiritual/familial crises away from public scrutiny???? Let them have it for as long as they need it. Who cares what they talk about? Isn't the important issue that they have a place to find themselves after years of cult involvement? My impression of RE is that it is a place for new exes or fence sitters to express doubts they have been fearful of admitting for years. What is wrong with providing a nurturing environment for those questions and concerns to grow? Leaving the cult behind is a process, and can involve family, friends, jobs, community, etc. It is a different process for everyone. So what if people need privacy in order to solve their multi-faceted cult issues? Two things. First, RE is NOT a forum for recent exes run by recent exes. Hardly. It's a forum for anyone who doesn't want to post on F7 or who also wants to post somewhere private run by long-time exes with a grudge against this place. Isn't it? Second, my impression of RE is that it has some recent-ex issue dialogue like you're talking about. But, like I say, it's also just an alternative, secret, private forum for any ol' ex who doesn't like this place. That's what recent exes are invited to join. I don't like it. But hell, Marianne, it's not THAT big a deal. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it and probably won't mention it again for a few months. :) I say let people resolve these issues in their own ways. If RE helps them extricate themselves from the clutches of the cult, more power to RE and its participants. Leave people who are in the vulnerable stages of departure alone! Well, how could I argue with that? In principle, I don't. I just think there's a commingling of interests and agendas that drive our -- may I say 'companion forum' or is that too presumptuous of me? -- that should be straightened out. Whatever ...

Subject: Who cares? From: Marianne To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 20:46:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If new exes need to talk in private, who cares? I really don't care if someone has a grudge against me or F7 and needs to talk about it privately on RE. We both have more important things to worry about in our personal and professional lives. Posting on F7 can be baptism by fire for a new ex and someone who is not cybersavvy. If they need to test the waters before they decide to jump into F7, fine with me. Jimbo, you did your great deed for the forum by going to Vancouver. Great work! I guess Deb didn't get her first row seat, huh? Anyway, let's leave the RE folks to themselves. Marianne

Subject: Can I ask you something? From: Jim To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 20:58:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hypothetically, say there's a recent ex -- an actual one, as opposed to a member of the secret, private forum of that name. Say they lurk here for a while and then decide they'd like to join in. But they're a little timid, hesitant, maybe for several reasons. It doesn't have to be anything 'deep' necessarily; might just be the inevitable nervousness of joining any forum such as this. So what do they do? They see that they can apply for something which, quite literally, has their name all over it. So they do and, hopefully, they're accepted and they join in. But what are they joining? Well, they're joining a group that consists of two kinds of people, I imagine: true, recent exes like themselves and people who, for whatever reason, choose that forum over this one. So that's where they settle. Great. New blood, new people, we never meet them. They can lurk and benefit from all that's said and done here but that's a one-way street. For how long? Indefinitely, I'd imagine, in some cases. Query: Are new posters to Recent Exes encouraged at some point to join the open forum? By who? The people who left it behind? And you don't see a problem with that?

Subject: Can I answer? From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 22:31:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Query: Are new posters to Recent Exes encouraged at some point to join the open forum? By who? The people who left it behind? Yes, I do the encouraging on a regular basis, just as you do you your complaining here on a regular basis. As I've said before the majority do post here. The only one of your concerns that has, in my opinion, any merit is the possibility of revelations about Maharaji being posted there and not here. On the very rare occasions when this happens I encourage the poster to post here. To the best of my memory, they always have. John.

Subject: May I ask a question? From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 02:33:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim has some very valid concerns. He said: ''Say they lurk here for a while and then decide they'd like to join in. But they're a little timid, hesitant, maybe for several reasons. It doesn't have to be anything 'deep' necessarily; might just be the inevitable nervousness of joining any forum such as this. ''So what do they do? They see that they can apply for something which, quite literally, has their name all over it. So they do and, hopefully, they're accepted and they join in. ''But what are they joining? Well, they're joining a group that consists of two kinds of people, I imagine: true, recent exes like themselves and people who, for whatever reason, choose that forum over this one.'' Perhaps the name should be changed or a new intro written. Right now it really has a loaded message built into the title. Also the oldtimer exes who post there and are involved need to declare themselves as you, Patrick W, Lesley and Francesca have. It's not the need for privacy that bothers me. I would have joined it before diving into this joint if I had known about it but I didn't find out about it until after I had been disembowelled (and sincerely welcomed) on F5 a few times. But there is an unnecessary secrecy surrounding the oldtimers who are involved and a less than transparent administration. I know who the FA is and trust that person completely as I trust you and the others I mentioned above. All honorable people with no doubt the most altruistic intentions - to provide a place for newbies to get their feet wet. Perhaps it needs to be retitled simply as a password protected forum. I still think the best solution is to scrap it and post in the place of the intro an admonition to newbies to read the forum and Journeys and find someone to email. That person will then informally introduce the newbie to others. With the emphasis on informality. Putting an intro on EPO announcing a ''recent ex'' forum is a bit loaded and formal. Having then to endure the ordeal of not knowing whether one will be rejected or not is not what I wish on a newbie. It's fine once you're in but getting in is too formal and too much like cult crap. If the initial purpose of RE was to protect newbies from cultweasels, then that reason no longer is valid as Gerry pointed out. This joint is jumpin', civil and troll free.

Subject: Here is my distilled objection From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 08:45:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Basically it's this. Recent exes post there because, supposedly, they're 'not ready' for the regular forum yet. Yet the place is run by people who, for one reason or another, don't post here themselves. So what kind of example, by word or deed, are they ever going to set for those same actual recent exes to make any sort of transition and start posting here? They're not. Therefore, recent exes are invited to join a private, secret forum, not as a stepping stone to more general interaction with the rest of us but as what may well be a permanent alternative. Okay, so John urges them to post good stuff on F7 if it arises. Fine. But who urges them to just join in the discussion here? Certainly not the RE members who've already turned their back on this forum.

Subject: You misunderstand me From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:24:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, You said:- Okay, so John urges them to post good stuff on F7 if it arises. Fine. But who urges them to just join in the discussion here? Me. I don't just ask them to post the good stuff. John.

Subject: Re: You misunderstand me From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:26:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What are you saying? That you urge them to post the bad stuff? Or that you urge them to post generally? Or something different?

Subject: Are you stupid? From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 01:44:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You asked who urges RE members to post here generally and I said I did. If that's not crystal clear then I don't know what is. I'll tell you one thing though, if this forum gets clogged up with fucking threads like this one, I would cease urging anyone to post here, and remove all links to this forum from EPO. Having said that, I think good sense will prevail, and the subject matter of this forum will return to discussions about the cult. John.

Subject: Even Richard says RE is misnamed From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 11:13:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have absolutely no objection to privacy. Vicki is right - you live and work in a very public arena, as I do, and we're used to being scrutinized and having to be accountable to strangers. Most people are not. It's not the privacy that I object to. (As Vicki also mentions - a lot of private emailing also takes place.) My objections are to the name and to the application process. The name sets it up as being too official sounding and the application process is too much like applying for a cult SmartCard. I probably don't have a real solution but, like you, I do see that there is a problem.

Subject: Here is my distilled approval From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 09:54:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Many have lurked but few are posting. Of the tens of thousands of people who have rejected M&K or PR&SK, only a tiny fraction have ever posted on F1 - F7. The vast majority of Ex's or Posties (post-K) know M&K is not for them and that's all they want or need to say about it. I am pleased with my involvement with the ex fora and give credit to my lurking and posting for helping me recycle into freedom. That doesn't mean this format is for everyone. Of those who have acessed info on EPO or fora, I believe most have chosen to incorporate what they've learned here and on EPO and continue on in life. Some have chosen to engage in conversation on RE. Some carry on in-person conversations over coffee without ever feeling they need to share it with the world via F7 or the private RE. And why should they? I had dinner with a former pwk recently and they had never heard of the DECA debacle for example. That info further underscored their belief that M&K had devolved into incessant fundraising which is why they had quietly exed years before. This person has no interest in F7, RE or any follow up conversation with me. Fine, no problem. I'm here if they want to chat. F7 will hopefully be here if they want to discuss concerns in public, RE is there if they want a private conversation. By the way, I do think Recent Exes is a misnomer. The name alone has discouraged me from applying even though I've thought of joining in there. Still, it's another venue for discussion and that far outweighs the naming issue. As far as revelations, there are facts about GMJ/MJ/M/PR that we will never know. The people who know those facts must decide for themselves what, where, when, how and with whom those facts are shared. Meanwhile, they have to live with it until they can't hold back any longer. It's a matter of personal preference and comfort zone that allows anyone to speak out against M&K in their own particular way. I would not be suprised or offended to discover dozens of formal or informal chatrooms similar to RE. In fact, I would be glad to know more people are talking about their experinces in whatever way they wish. Richard

Subject: Really? From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 12:09:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I would not be suprised or offended to discover dozens of formal or informal chatrooms similar to RE. In fact, I would be glad to know more people are talking about their experinces in whatever way they wish. Sure, let's all do this. I'm going to start my own private, secret atheistic forum but, just for fun, I'll call it 'The Long Time Ex Forum' as that may attract more people. I'll stop posting here for some reason or another and hope that enough people join my club so we can have at least one or two decent conversations. Public forums are for amateurs and patsies! :) And yes, so what if there's not much going on for anyone else to read. If no one else cares, I'm sure not going to lose any sleep over it.

Subject: Re: Really? From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:04:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think public forums are for public people, private forums are for private people. There's more than one way to skin a cult but I'm definitely not encouraging splintering of F7 into minute and marginalized factions. I'm simply encouraging all curious former followers or current followers to keep talking about what it meant/means to them and the impact on their lives. Through honest conversation, the truth takes shape. Even LG proves the K experience is no help in becoming a better person. A careful reading reveals no profound truth but at least by talking amongst themselves and proving nothing, other PWK will start to wonder if life with MPR really is great after all. Richard, who has secret password protected conversations with himself and shares the revelations with strangers on the street ;)

Subject: Re: Here is my distilled approval From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 11:59:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi All, My two pennies here. Now that I know who the older exes are that post on RE, I feel better about it. John said he encourages people to post here. At least there are folks on RE who can help people who are going through painful stuff, are confused, grieving, etc. Give encouraging words, a gentle nudge with the mindfuck unwind. Recent exes who are freshly out of the cult (especially those from the 70s era) are sometimes quite fragile, and even shy. I'm not shy. Plus, ask me anything (almost:) and I'll tell you honestly. Others aren't like that...sometimes I envy the more discreet among us here. I do agree with Pat that the name might be changed to something like 'Support for Exiting Premies--passworded forum,' as well as more explanation about it on EPO. Basically, I don't care if I'm discussed. I dove right into F4 and hit my head on the cement floor. But I'm resilient :) and I have had good experiences in coming back, leaving mad, and coming back here to F7. I have a big mouth. So I like it here. Like Marianne said, let them have their privacy forum... Cynth

Subject: By invitation only.... From: Voyeur To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 12:52:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It reminds me of the late 70s when they had 'intellectual satsang' - it was 'by invitation only'. I, of course was not invited. Must have had something to do with my East End upbringing which might have come out and pierced the pretension even though I can put five letters after my name (apart from the swear words!) Plus ca change.....

Subject: Re: By invitation only.... From: Pat W To: Voyeur Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 16:16:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It reminds me of the late 70s when they had 'intellectual satsang' - it was 'by invitation only'. I, of course was not invited. Must have had something to do with my East End upbringing which might have come out and pierced the pretension even though I can put five letters after my name (apart from the swear words!) Plus ca change..... --- I remember 'Intellectual Satsang' - I probably didn't go. It didn't bother me. There's little comparison with what's going on with RE . RE is not for people who are intellectual at all. It's for people who don't feel comfortable on a public forum. You want to join - go ahead. My guess is you don't want to. Have you got a better idea of how to admit these people to a private forum who want to chat civilly and yet keep trolls at bay?

Subject: the door is always open From: gerry To: Pat W Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 17:34:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Have you got a better idea of how to admit these people to a private forum who want to chat civilly and yet keep trolls at bay? Patrick, we talk civilly here. I zapped the trolls. You guys can come back now. All's clear. Allee Allee in free.... You can even talk about spir...nah, fergit it.

Subject: Re: the door is always open From: Pat W To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 18:13:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes I know Gerry- -you're doing a great job of ejecting trolls but the fact remains that this forum is public- not private. I suppose I am a pretty major supporter of this forum - I think EPO should indeed have a public forum -and although this is your forum so to speak- in effect it is the public forum that has come to be associated with EPO. Good. All power to you. There is most definately room for a private forum also associated with EPO, as is exemplified by RE. They both have different and relevant roles. The existence of one is no threat to the other either. Actually it's clear to me that the vast majority of ex-premies very much appreciate and understand this.

Subject: 'Intellectual satsang'? Really? Where? From: Jim To: Voyeur Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 12:57:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is the first I ever heard of such a thing. Don't tell me they were talking quantum this and that, synergy, paradigm shifts and wholistic emergence and stuff? Sorry I missed it. Yes, it does sound like that, doesn't it?

Subject: Re: 'Intellectual satsang'? Really? Where? From: Voyeur To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 13:39:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: West London as I recall....but it was never advertised, just a small group of those in the know. I think the usual Oxbridge types got together. As I said I was never invited so I don't know what they talked about.

Subject: Re: 'Intellectual satsang'? Really? Where? From: Livia To: Voyeur Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 03:58:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On reflection after the initial pique that I never knew about it - it was probably created for those premies with half a brain amongst us who just couldn't stomach any more drivel of the 'it's so beautiful' variety. The Oxbridge types obviously had a nose for each other and picked each other out. Most of us, though intelligent as I'm sure a lot of us were/are were probably just too stuck with jargon of the 'far out' type to be of much interest to them. I can totally understand why they did it - it must have been an attempt to utilise their potentially wasted intellects. Not surprising that it soon got stopped. The powers that were would have found it totally unacceptable, as intellect virtually spelt 'mind', that old devil. Livia

Subject: Re: 'Intellectual satsang'? Really? Where? From: The Falcon To: Voyeur Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 21:34:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike Finch, Angus Jenkinson (see white pages) and Jerry Ravetz ( a professor from Leeds(?) University)were part of it and as I recall it was all very cosmic, highly scientific and most enjoyable compared with the usualsimpering. I wonder what happened to Jerry, anyone know?

Subject: From: To: Date Posted: Email Address: Message:

Subject: Re: 'Intellectual satsang'? Really? Where? From: Anandaji To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 22:21:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In our community we used to have 'Adult Satsang.' In fact, my wife and I started it. There were a group of us older householders who had trouble relating to some of the ashram premies. We had kids, jobs, etc. So I started Adult Satsang. We didn't have an alter. We didn't sing Arti. We sat in a circle and went around so that everyone had an equal chance to share satsang. It actually worked very well. AFter a time, though, word came down from somewhere that it would no longer be allowed. Do you think I was ahead of my time...or behind? Anandaji

Subject: Re: 'Intellectual satsang'? Really? Where? From: Voyeur To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 14:23:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One of them writes on this forum...but I'm not naming names!

Subject: Can you define 'Intellectual Satsang'... From: Cynthia To: Voyeur Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 14:45:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that a premie posts here giving intellectual satsang, or an ex? Intellectual satsang could be defined in many ways. Hmmmm....

Subject: Re: 'Intellectual satsang'? Really? Where? From: PatC To: Voyeur Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 13:41:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It also took place in a house near the PoP on Sat afternoons. I never went although I was invited.

Subject: Blimey O'Reilly From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 14:23:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Blimey, to think all that was going on and they never told me! And I thought I was an intellectual. Honest, guv, I never knew. In England, no matter what world you're in, even the premie world, class will always out. Boggled, Livia

Subject: The Class System From: Voyeur To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 15:38:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought about writing that but thought that it may be taken as being paranoid. But it is true.

Subject: My Two Pennies... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 11:33:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, The biggest problem I now have with RE is that I recently read somewhere on one of the other forums--LG, Symp, or AG in it's previous incarnation (can't remember which) where Stonor mentioned that she is/was/had been posting on RE!!!!! What the F**k?!? I didn't make mention of it at the time because there was already a big fight going on. So I am very curious as to WHY Stonor would be allowed entry to a recent exes forum (if that is true) when ex-premies have been denied entry. (Actually, it was probably due to her friendship with Katie, but that still is no reason to allow someone who has never been a premie on that board). Is this true JHB? I'd really like to know.:) Cynthia

Subject: I don't know, Cynthia From: JHB To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 14:01:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynthia, The RE FA's email address is on EPO. Why not write and ask? I have never seen Stonor post on RE, and I would certainly question her presence there if she did. John.

Subject: That's nothing -- how about Salam?? From: Jim To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 12:21:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I heard Salam was a member too! LOL!!!!

Subject: Salam??? Christ on a Christmas Cookie~! [nt] From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 12:22:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Now that takes the cake, Cynthia From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 11:45:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If it is true that Sronor posts there then it confirms my suspicions that RE is simply Katie's private Jim-free forum. Sheesh!

Subject: No Stonor on RE [nt] From: Francesca To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 14:20:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thanks Francesca... From: Cynthia To: Francesca Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 14:50:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Fran, How are you? Thanks for the information. I hope RE is serving a good purpose. You know me...I am often have questions about things that seem secret. I do understand a need for a confidential forum so I'll leave it at that. Hope you're well, Cynthia

Subject: Yes I'm doing From: Francesca To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 16:16:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for asking. :) Same for you -- hope all is well. Francesca

Subject: Re: Now that takes the cake, Cynthia From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 12:13:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am 99.9% sure that Stonor mentioned that she posted there at some point. The reason I remember it is because I became quite angry to find that out. I should have kept the post. You know, a few years ago I was a poster on RE. At that point it was mainly people discussing private and personal issues about their lives. Now? I haven't got a clue. But Stonor?? What the f**k would she have to contribute? And why? Sheesh is right!!!

Subject: Is Deborah a member? :C) [nt] From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 13:02:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: No [nt] From: Francesca To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 14:21:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: And Salam? [nt] From: Jim To: Francesca Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 14:39:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: He doesn't post there ... From: Francesca To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 17:01:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am not privy to "membership lists." Your 3 questions are up. Sincerely, The genii

Subject: Funny, I'd heard he did From: Jim To: Francesca Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 17:22:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, Fran, I know you wouldn't lie or mislead me about this. Must be my mistake, I guess. :)

Subject: I am not an authority here From: Francesca To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 21:56:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've only been on RE for a certain time period. Someone that you are in contact with could have seen posts that I didn't. I currently do read it often, just as I read this Forum often. But I am not comfortable answering questions about who does and does not post there, since it is up to people who post there to say whether they do or not, or to remain silent on the issue. But I did not want people assuming that stuff goes on there that doesn't go on there. At least not while I've been reading it. But I don't want to jump into a discussion on this. It's a dead issue as far as I'm concerned. I should have kept my big mouth shut. --F

Subject: Well if he IS a member u shld be concerned From: Jim To: Francesca Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 13:15:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If Salam IS a member you should be concerned, I should think, especially if you're assuring posters there that they're posting in private. Salam's gone snake, hasn't he? Put up that 'Cult of Exism' site, didn't he? Not the kind of poster -- or lurker -- you want, I'd imagine.

Subject: Re: Well if he IS a member u shld be concerned From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 13:49:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I trust the folks like John and Francesca to be able to ensure that privacy is honored. Other than that, it's out of our control. I can accept that and have no interest in being there. Why don't you apply and see what happens:)

Subject: Aren't we curious... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 14:57:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat and Jim, Between the three of us we'd make a great private investigation firm. I'm curious about RE. If Stonor did in fact post there it was probably when Katie was the FA. I think what bothers me about it is this: it reminds me of the Aspirant Program I went through. And it was called just that. Instead of going to nightly satsang we aspirants went into a room with the most clear of premies and listen and ask questions (which were answered very well in the context of cult programming). I don't think that's what's going on in RE but not knowing, the mystique of it all, I think that's what makes me question it. If it's helping folks who are too fragile to post here, I'm all for it. If it's a private gossip chat room, then I want to join.;) Love, Cynth

Subject: Re: Aren't we curious... From: Pat W To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 16:39:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If it's a private gossip chat room, then I want to join I think RE has definite potential as a private gossip chat room ...I recommend you join! The emphasis at RE is on CIVILITY. I think that is the only criteria. Incivility is the main reason that all the public forums seem to degenerate into flame wars. All this suggestion of RE being somewhere where a certain type of talk is favoured or required - 'quasi-intelectual' or whatever- is simply un-true. The keywords there are tolerance and civility. I guess that is the only thing you have to prove. That to me does not remind me of the knowledge process at all - that was about being talked at by people who had the agenda to get you into Maharaji. The agenda there is simply to civilly discuss the experience of 'exing' (for want of a better word) - maybe also to offer encouragement. You may rest assured that the only people who object to RE are either premies, or exes whose civility is judged insufficient by the majority of the people there. NB. Not by a panel of 'clear' people in charge. RE is democratic as is demonstrated by the fact that members are invited to 'vote in' applicants as I explained above.

Subject: So that means ..............(??!) From: Jim To: Pat W Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 16:51:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You may rest assured that the only people who object to RE are either premies, or exes whose civility is judged insufficient by the majority of the people there. Because I object to RE -- and have from the start -- it follows that my civility is judged insufficient by the majority of the people there? What a happy coincidence! And may I also infer from this that if, by chance, I were to get hit by a great, white light that knocks me off my horse or suffer a stroke perhaps and change my mind and support the idea of a secret forum (which advertises for 'recent exes' but really is just another, albeit private, forum for plain, ol' regular exes like you too), that the majority of the people there will then automatically judge me sufficiently civil? Well, one can always hope and pray, I guess. Most interesting. By the way, is Salam a member? :)

Subject: Re: So that means ..............(??!) From: Pat W To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 17:28:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And may I also infer from this that if, by chance, I were to get hit by a great, white light that knocks me off my horse or suffer a stroke perhaps and change my mind and support the idea of a secret forum (which advertises for 'recent exes' but really is just another, albeit private, forum for plain, ol' regular exes like you too), that the majority of the people there will then automatically judge me sufficiently civil? I was coming to that...I think that if you really want the answer to that you would have to apply. 'changing your mind and supporting the idea of the forum'- although that might be a step in the right direction does not mean you are suitably civil. The requirements are that simply you are demonstrably committed to being civil. If you are - I will vote for you as I'm sure others will. You are generally perceived as a very important contributor to all these discussions - the only habit of yours that some (not all) people find terminally alienating is your very demanding style of arguing , which although valid here and in many other areas of society, is not a sensitive enough approach to these RE's who want to avoid being subjected to a cross-examination at this stage. If you could bear to do that then the majority at RE would undoubtedly vote you in. Could do you not do that? It's really a matter of communication skills in my opinion. I could go on but it's getting late.

Subject: Thanks but no thanks From: Jim To: Pat W Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 17:50:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patrick, I'm sorry but the whole notion of a discussion board where one isn't free to press issues as they arise is very uninviting to me. Civility? I'm there -- usually (no one's perfect, eh?). But no 'cross-examination'? Forget it. Thanks anyways. :)

Subject: Re: Thanks but no thanks From: Pat W To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 18:36:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patrick, I'm sorry but the whole notion of a discussion board where one isn't free to press issues as they arise is very uninviting to me. Civility? I'm there -- usually (no one's perfect, eh?). But no 'cross-examination'? Forget it. It's possible to have a discussion without cross-examining people isn't it? I have to say that when I post at RE and here for that matter, it is usually not so much to discuss but to express something I feel strongly about. However I think there is even a way of questioning people, pressing issues, if you will - which is tactful and civil. I am in no doubt that there is plenty of civil disagreement at RE. 'Cross-examination' however does not really belong in the RE discussion board just as it would not be welcome in many other private forums. The very word implies that someone is bound to listen whilst someone has a special right to press questions. There is a certain loss of freedom implicit in that word as is demonstrated by the fact that it is generally used within the context of a court room where the cross-examined is not at liberty to leave. People who go to a discussion board for support do not want to be cross-examined . Alternatively eople who want to be cross-examined and to cross-examine others - go to a debating board. You might not want to go to RE for these reasons but you will of course be missing out on the interesting reports etc. It's up to you - if you want to be involved you have to accept that there's no cross-examining allowed. I can't change that rule!

Subject: Cross-examination under the lights! From: Jim To: Pat W Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 19:03:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patrick, We're verbal beings and the Maharaji trap we fell into was a verbal one. I don't care how much people talk about ineffable experiences, Maharaji got us with words. Just think of the nightly indoctrinations we endured or, even better, the long satsang marathons we suffered during the repentance phase in the late '70s. So is it really so bad that we finally push each other to say what we mean and mean what we say? I don't think so. Do you? And isn't that really the only kind of 'cross-examination' we're talking about? You, for example, have been virtually grilled here at times for some of the stuff you've said. Remember? All those early quasi-apologies for Maharaji when you were still working through that stuff? To your great credit -- no, I mean that sincerely. I have nothing but respect for you over this -- you might have flinched but you didn't run away. You didn't flail either. You thought, and talked and thought and talked. We all benefitted from your public process here. But there were certain times when you were definitely under the gun, philosophically-speaking. I don't think that could have happened in a 'non-confrontational' environment. Do you? See where I'm going with this?

Subject: Words count only for 7% From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 17:51:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We're verbal beings and the Maharaji trap we fell into was a verbal one. I don't care how much people talk about ineffable experiences, Maharaji got us with words. Jim, I disagree. Apparently, it's not what we say, but how we say it that makes the difference. According to SCIENCE (i.e., The Journal of Counselling Psychology), only 7% of our communication is the words, while 55% of the impact is body language (especially facial expressions), and 38%is the tone of voice used. So communication is much more than the words we use. Body language and tonality make an enormous difference to the meaning and impact of our words. For example, tonality and body language will determine whether the word 'really' is a simple recognition, a threat, a sarcastic put down, or a delighted realization. That's science Jim!

Subject: When was the last time I called you an idiot? From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 18:45:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As if you even know what we're talking about. You don't.

Subject: Gee, thanks for sharing Jim!!!! [nt] From: =) To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 19:39:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: no--it's self-examination From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 02:46:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, if someone ispetitioning to9 speak at RE, they've already realized that the whole house of cards has come down. You don;t need to hammer someone when they are already in a state of loss or grieving or sorrow for something they have realized is gone and over. RE is not like here. here is premies vs ex's. here is ex's vs ex's. this is a contentious arena refuting the cult's devices in the clinches. RE doeswnt need to be that, because anyone asking to go in is convinced already. but having realized it was false, one needs time and opportunity to voice all the other things in one's life-and psyche- that follow from that realization. those things don't need to be challenged, anymore than a widow grieving needs to be badgered and pressured to face that her husband is dead and buried. there is nothing for it but time and acceptance and adjusting to the change. why do we have privacy at all, Jim? why do we have locks and window shades and bathrooms? why do we wrap our correspondence in sealed envelopes? why do we have passwords to use our computers? would you rather it were a world where no such practices were allowed and everything HAD to be public? have you ever walked in a country where such custom is the norm? what is it about you, that it bugs you so much, when poeple choose to handle their processes without you? how would you welcome another you, if there was one, if they came hounding and badgering and stalking YOU, the way you obsess about extracting what you want out of others?? could you stand being pursued by a You? how long would you tolerate it? at what point would you snap and punch their lights out to make them leave you alone? wouldn't you feel that your own intelligence and faculties could sort out and assess what you were realizing, just fine, without some external and self appointed inquisitioner bearing down upon you relentlessly, goading you to produce the answers that would satisfy them? you DO rather come off like you're the Inquisition. comfy chair or not. golden rule, Jim: if you want to enjoy privacy for yourself, you HAVE to grant others the same. that's the true meaning of having grace. not the divine kind. the basic kind that any of us can display.

Subject: Maharaji Got Us With Words...! From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 20:34:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, We're verbal beings and the Maharaji trap we fell into was a verbal one. I don't care how much people talk about ineffable experiences, [Maharaji got us with words.] Emphasis added. Just think of the nightly indoctrinations we endured or, even better, the long satsang marathons we suffered during the repentance phase in the late '70s. So is it really so bad that we finally push each other to say what we mean and mean what we say? I don't think so. Do you? And isn't that really the only kind of 'cross-examination' we're talking about? ******* Jim, I'm with you, Maharaji got us with words. No debate about it. Those words expoited us in many different ways. Everyone has a different way of expressing our words. I was glad to finally talk to you on the phone. Since then, I wish people could hear your tone of voice. I also wish that people could hear my tone of voice and see my facial expressions. I talk a lot with my face. I never learned how to play poker;) So apply for RE. Satiate your curiousity and play by the rules set forth. What's there to lose? PatW just dared you to enter into RE with the condition of being civil by standards set by the participants of that private forum. Take it or leave it. Btw, when was your last quarterly anti-Recent-Exes rant? Did I miss it or am I blind? Face it pal, there are those of us who want to rant and rave and swear and just feel like slapping someone's face and say ''SNAP OUT OF IT.'' But that's not a humane way of dealing with folks who have sensitive feelings. So let RE be.

Subject: Re: Cross-examination under the lights! From: Pat Knackered W To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 19:32:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patrick, We're verbal beings and the Maharaji trap we fell into was a verbal one. I don't care how much people talk about ineffable experiences, Maharaji got us with words. Just think of the nightly indoctrinations we endured or, even better, the long satsang marathons we suffered during the repentance phase in the late '70s. So is it really so bad that we finally push each other to say what we mean and mean what we say? I don't think so. Do you? And isn't that really the only kind of 'cross-examination' we're talking about? You, for example, have been virtually grilled here at times for some of the stuff you've said. Remember? All those early quasi-apologies for Maharaji when you were still working through that stuff? To your great credit -- no, I mean that sincerely. I have nothing but respect for you over this -- you might have flinched but you didn't run away. You didn't flail either. You thought, and talked and thought and talked. We all benefitted from your public process here. But there were certain times when you were definitely under the gun, philosophically-speaking. I don't think that could have happened in a 'non-confrontational' environment. Do you? See where I'm going with this? Yes I see where you're going and I repeat,I am not arguing that there is no place for this sort of cross-examination here - just not on RE. OK? By the time I was ready to talk here I was prepared to be challenged and I wanted to have my integrity questioned because I was confident that I would only benefit from that process. Maybe if RE had existed back then, or sooner, I would have got involved even sooner than I did - like when I wasn't brave enough to voice my doubts in public. Do you get where I'm going with this? BED

Subject: Quit posting! I'm trying to sleep! :) [nt] From: Jim To: Pat Knackered W Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 19:34:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Me too!...I talk in my sleep [nt]) From: Pat W To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 19:39:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Why I don't post on LG From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 01:28:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A few months ago Scott T wrote about the importance of open discussion and dissent in breaking up cult-think. It made me look at LG with fresh eyes. I saw that the premies did not always agree with each other but that they rallied around and ganged up on any ex who posted there. I wondered what would happen if exes did not post there. Would they begin discussing their disagreements more openly? I stopped posting there because I was their favorite patsy. Then Jim was blocked. A few exes continued to post there but the level of premie vs ex antagonism went down. And the premies seemed to argue with each other more - in a healthy, assertive way. I will continue to stay off of LG and I hope that the premies continue to argue with each. They are not allowed to argue with each other in the cult and must always arrive at a concensus compromise aka ''unanimity'' in their group undertakings. I also hope that CD keeps hosting LG and does not switch it off as he has threatened because it is never on topic which is that Life is Great. Perhaps he would keep his forum on topic if he called it the ''Let's Argue and Gossip and Be Like Normal People Forum'' instead of the mealy-mouthed platitude he's called it and which he seems to think will make people happy. And finally a premie has challenged CD on his new policy of deleting off-topic posts. There's hope for at least some of the LG premie regulars. WH (a regular premie poster) askes CD: Subject: Deleted Posts Message: CD, I was looking for the posts between Dermot and me in the thread 'Simple Awareness' way below (under Jerry's post - 'Re: I think those premies missed the point') but they're gone. Since I can't believe that you go around randomly deleting posts, it would be highly appreciated that you explain the reason why you deleted those I'm referring to. Thanks, WH --- --- --- --- --- --- - CD replied in his usual impenetrably obscure style: --- --- --- --- --- --- --- I know it takes time to forumate thoughts which are presented here. Please save your text in case it is deleted so that you can repost it if you feel it is worth shareing I hope that people will not give up and share what is truely positive in their lives so we can all benefit. The thread started by Dermot had accumulated a variety of stuff, some of which was turning into a mess and causing a disturbance on F7. I don't have time to selectively remove stuff and don't want to be a judge or selective censor. Some posts are obviously antagonistic only for that purpose. This place was not meant as a location for people to debate the merits pro or con of their current beliefs in a mean spirited or righteous manner. This place was meant for people to share what is positive in their lives. The policy as of today is to remove posts which instigate distruptive conversation as the sole purpose of the post. If people have nothing else to offer here then that will be it. (Ed: Sadly, it's possible that WH will back down without a fight as has happened so many times in the past. Will he - quite justifiably - have a hissy this time?) Of course Deborah has her say. As irrational as her posts can be at least she has introduced an element of upfront assertiveness but, let's face it, she who must be obeyed and has all the premies like Catweasel and Roupell terrified and eating out of her hand would like to rule LG with an iron rod. Deborah Subject: I agree with you, Cat Message: Hi buddy, I have observed a tremendous shift in the quality of the posts by premies. And their effort to be civil to everyone and to post pleasant, fun, and unbiased spirtitual posts is obvious. It is very clear that all oppositions and fights involve an ex. And it involves an ex who has come here for the exclusive purpose of lying, revising, or stirring up dissention. They thrive on aggression and opposition. If we won't go to them, they steal the posts and create debates about them at their cyber sties. Do these people ever come here with pleasant posts, ever? Do they have a reputation of being considerate, tolerant or respectful? When was the last time? When was the last time two premies or regulars or never prmeies or ex-exes started a fight here? I can't think that far back. The cause is what needs to be addressed at this point, not the effect. I also see the cup as half-full, not half-empty. The positive changes to the forum should not go un-noted. This forum and its regulars have proven beyond a shadow of doubt that their motives are honourable. The exes have proven beyond a shadow of doubt, that harmony over here is threatening to their agenda. Shit!! When people get critized and cyberstalked for getting along, you know something is seriously wrong. This forum is not an extension of F-VII, a point the exes refuse to acknowledge. They are revengeful that they are not controlling this forum. And so coming here and starting fights is a way to keep control of the environment. I think this place could use a forum janitor. That would help CD who has other things to do with his time, and it would help keep the doo doo off the lawn. But the antagonistic posts cannot be tolerated, while the defense of them critized. cheers, deborah, who believes the solution is in front of our noses

Subject: Re: Why I don't post on LG From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 08:21:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know how I feel Pat. Just let Bhagwans be Bhagwans is my usual stance. If premies want to gather and tell each other how wonderful their lives are because of PR & SK, no problem. My philosophy is generally laisez faire. Of course, I do not condone the attacks which have been made. The thing is, upon occasional visits to LG, there appears to be absolutely no affirmations of appreciation going on. Only an ongoing rant about how awful Ex's are. What self respecting premie (oxymoron?) would subject themself to that? Dialogue is impossible in such situations so why bother? Best leave them alone as they speak volumes about the influence of PR&SK in their lives. Richard

Subject: could I have LG link please From: Beragon Ki Jai To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 03:25:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am stuffed if I can find Life is Great on any of my search engines. Thank you Pat.

Subject: Re: could I have LG link please From: Thorin To: Beragon Ki Jai Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 03:42:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There you go BKJ I usually get there by clicking on the Symposium link, then clicking on Maharaji Watch Web Directory and scrolling down to the LG link. It's not my favourite forum so I have never added it to my favourites list. I like to keep down on the clutter. :) LG www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum

Subject: Re: could I have LG link please From: Beragon Ki Jai To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 23:04:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jolly decent of you Thorin.

Subject: Re: Why I don't post on LG From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 02:01:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat, Well, I did post a couple of times this week but I am most unwelcome there so won't put myself through the trouble anymore either. It's not worth it because with GuruDeb there guarding the gates the probability of being trashed is 100%. One can only take so much of that before it wears thin. Chris said to WH: I know it takes time to forumate thoughts which are presented here. Please save your text in case it is deleted so that you can repost it if you feel it is worth shareing I hope that people will not give up and share what is truely positive in their lives so we can all benefit. What he's basically saying is that if people are in their minds (thinking, analyzing, confronting) forget about it. So it is still the old premie cult conditioning but now it's 'post only nice chit-chat.' Can't rock that boat... Interesting. Weird. Troubling. Not surprising.

Subject: Exes are trolls on LG From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 10:06:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The definition of a troll is someone who disrupts a chatroom and introduces irrelevant topics. I resent it when Roupell or Catweasel and other anonymous premie apologists come over here. They are entitled to feel the same way about us going over there and being apologists for EPO. Look how civilized this joint has become since they were blocked. I'm hoping the same happens on LG. Not all premies are malicious cult apologists. They are not allowed to talk in the cult so, hopefully, the freedom of the net will loosen their tongues and eventually their minds.

Subject: Just because Roupell likes to cross dress . . . From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 19:47:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: . . . is no reason to attack him personally!

Subject: Sorry, been told that's Ru Paul [nt] From: Dep To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 21:07:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: You're weird. I need to talk to you From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 02:03:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Have you read all of Doris Lessing's books? She also suffered from the madness that English people get in Africa. At least read ''The Good Terrorist.'' Although you might not realize that it's a satire. Sigh.

Subject: That is ridiculous, Pat From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 10:55:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, really now! First, exes are hardly guilty of introducing irrelevant topics on LG. Second, although, strictly speaking, 'apologist' doesn't have a negative connotation, it's sure picked one up over time such that I don't think it's fair to use it this way. But the main point's the first one.

Subject: Now, Jim, we'll have to agree to disagree From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 11:32:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You: ''First, exes are hardly guilty of introducing irrelevant topics on LG.'' The topic of LG is supposed to be how great life is. I don't know exactly what that means but I think CD wants it to be like Enjoying Life. So, obviously, nearly everything we say over there is irrelevant because most exes don't subscrible to that type of mush. You: ''Second, although, strictly speaking, 'apologist' doesn't have a negative connotation, it's sure picked one up over time such that I don't think it's fair to use it this way.'' Actually I would not call myself an ''apologist'' of anything except common sense. I was using the word to describe exes the way premies perceive us over there - for instance when they accuse JHB of pushing his agenda. You: ''But the main point's the first one.'' Yes, but they're linked. Because we are perceived as proselytizing for EPO over there we are regarded as introducing irrelevant stuff. It's just a little experiment that I'm doing since reading Scott's theory about free speech undoing cults. We can always invite the premies over to Symp for a fight. BTW, WH caved in. Pity. I was hoping he would stick up for himself a bit more. He said to CD: If you had taken a better look at the thread in question, which is still there, the interaction between Dermot and me was much more constructive and respectful than tons of 'mean spirited and righteous' posts on this forum. I didn't contribute much here but whenever I did was positive and polite, not 'instigating disruptive conversation' as others consistently do but never deleted. Quite the opposite, my intentions were always to establish short-but-sweet constructive communication. It's your forum, CD, of course. This will be my last post. I was posting only occasionally because a while back a friend sent me to this forum asking me to present posts of a premie who could contribute positive views about M and K, though my life is full of human interactions and spend very little time on the computer. People I interact with (including premies, exes and non) are grounded and real, so no more waste of time for me on this forum. Goodbye! --- --- --- --- --- -- And our Gerry said: I've had some moderate success in maintaining the focus of forum seven and I believe CD is on the right track. I also agree with WH that his posts were positive. What works for me at F7 is quick deletion of posts which I believe are intentionally disruptive or just plain spam. Sometimes I go down in flames for a deletion decision and I believe Chris got off to a rough start with a good policy. Give CD another chance, WH. Lord knows you are a sane and needed voice around here, IMO. It takes a little time to develop the right 'touch' for deleting posts effectively without hurting the conversation. Also, I don't hesitate to block deliberate disruptors (Chris gets to define that term for himself, as it's his forum.) Of course, blocking isn't effective for truly determined disruptors.

Subject: No way ...AND ... Gerry said THAT?! From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 12:20:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, I'd agree with you completely if I accepted the premise that the purpose of the forum is to talk about how 'great' life is in which case all discussions about Maharaji would be arguably off-topic (or not ... it's all so vague, after all). But I don't. The forum is a forum for members of the Maharaji cult to talk about their cult and its leader. CD's in CD land but even he doesn't take himself seriously. He knows LG's for Maharaji-related issues. Of course it is. He's just being typically obtuse and evasive to suggest anything less than that. Therefore, exes starting or contributing to discussions about Maharaji are completely ON-topic. As for whether or not CD's on the right track, no way. He tolerates complete flaming pile-ons, as he did when I was talking with Isabella, and even allows blatant, in-your-face death threats such I received. Worse, he arbitrarily blocks people as a form of argument. Now if CD were to say that LG was limited to nothing but favourable commentary about the cult, yeah, I'd agree, any one of us would be out of order posting there. But CD's not about to say that because it would look ridiculous. What kind of intelligent discussion can have any credibility if only 'positive' commentary's allowed?

Subject: Re: No way ...AND ... Gerry said THAT?! From: Carlos To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 13:28:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, your idea of discussion seems to be debate. And not all BBs are for discussion, be it debate style or other. And the point you miss or ignore is that you don't have the right to decide what a BBs topic is unless it is your BB or the BBs owner gives you that right. So your claim that exes doing the anti M thing on LG is OK because 'CD's in CD land but even he doesn't take himself seriously. He knows LG's for Maharaji-related issues. Of course it is. He's just being typically obtuse and evasive to suggest anything less than that' is an example of denial at best and a demonstration of manipulative justification at worst.

Subject: That's absurd From: Jim To: Carlos Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 14:00:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Discussion's discussion. We all know what it means. It includes debate, agreement, what have you. The relevant topic on LG is Maharaji. CD's problem, and yours as well, apparently, is that you only want one-sided discussions. Why don't you just admit that? Denial, perhaps? Is that it, Carlos? Are you in denial (not just a river in Egypt, you know!). Or is this just an example of your manipulative justification -- at its worst!? Glad you finally got home, though. That sounded like a real ordeal, getting out in public, going to a cult meeting, getting so befuddled that you couldn't think straight, then finally getting a lift. Good for you!

Subject: Maybe CD's confused but I'm not From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 13:00:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You: ''Therefore, exes starting or contributing to discussions about Maharaji are completely ON-topic.'' Maybe CD has not made himself clear (I think that's impossible) but the premie posters have. Their topic really is praising rawat and K. We're off-topic because we dis rawat and K.

Subject: Quit smoking that shit, Pat From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 13:13:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, The topic's Maharaji basically. I won't accept that opinions expressed on that very topic are somehow off-topic because they're critical. That's a semantic pretzel that's hard to take seriously. After all, what would happen if a premie were to suddenly say something the least bit critical of Maharaji on LG? Would he or she then be going off-topic? That's absurd. Now, I'm not saying it's not possible that there be a topic like 'All the things you like about Maharaji'. In that case, I guess anything you disliked about him, or maybe were even neutral about ... or maybe loved, not just liked, might be off-topic, but then that's ridiculous. Anyway ..................................... Pretty quiet today, huh? Maybe I should go read a book or something. Do some legal research. Go for a walk. Put away my laundry. Go out to the lake (it the sun comes back out). Or sit here and try to find something to argue with you about. :)

Subject: They've been discussing Meditation tips... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 14:43:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi There, Been raining heeah all week. Much needed acid-rain has arrived in torrents causing flooding north and west of me. Lyndonville in the NE Kingdom and many other towns up theah a flooded out. People can't get to home for the road blocks. Right after corn plantin' too. And people have had dry wells for over a yeeah... I digressed. They've been talking a lot about the practice of meditation and discussing tips on LG. I am from the ex-orthodox practicing-ashram-premie school of thought-f**k. The premies are now talking about how to improve techniques, e.g., CT's 1000 breaths before even beginning a formal sit-down. This seems strange to me. Has Prem ever given the go-ahead for bending the rules and embellishing? Interesting to me is observing the way these are discussed. Some still use hindi terms to refer to breath. Some make direct or vague references to a direct connection to Maharaji. Is it me? Am I thinking incorrectly about this? I don't remember ever feeling free to alter the techniques of knowledge because I was taught that K was taught only by M and that's agya. Comments?

Subject: Yes, the ashram premie in me rankles From: Jim To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 15:05:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are they really messing with Knowledge like that? Why, that's sheer sacrilege! What I find interesting about LG as I understand it to be from the various clips I've seen is that the premies will not / cannnot dig. They're just happy to be in the audience and they have no interest at all in looking backstage. Thus, they won't discuss their beliefs, let alone the differences in their beliefs, with one another. Everything's soft focus. merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

Subject: Quit taking pot shots at me From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 13:39:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, I can't argue with you because I've got to go to work. I'm already late. I'm just doing an experiment. I would like to see CD take his idea ad absurdum. :P

Subject: Even though it's called Life's Great... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 12:28:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The url says: blah, blah...premieforum! But again, I've been ostracized and even CD has been nasty to me so I'd rather just read...and post an occasional thing here and there. Roupell guaranteed that I WOULD be abused if I posted there. IMO, CD will never be able to control the atmosphere there. After all, premies aren't supposed to give satsang anymore. And Roupell really, really, really, really scares me!!!;)

Subject: Roupell.... From: PatD To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 18:02:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ........is a 5th technique merchant,but a true believer all the same. I don't know whether you read the little conversation I had with him on Symp., but it's clear to me from that,that he's someone who would laugh if their arse was on fire. What's also clear is that the modern devotee is the '70's reject devotee given the chance to make it finally to the feet. What a cunning little fuck is Prem. Don't be scared of people you're never going to meet,wait till they come through the door. I don't suppose the doc is going to book himself onto the next flight to USA. Very damp & muggy here in Warwickshire,68 & no sunshine. All the best : Pat Dorrity

Subject: I'm glad I caught your post, PatD... From: Cynthia To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 20:51:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm shakin' in my slipper socks. I have so many weapons just from my tool box, sewing box, and kitchen, no one would get out of my house alive. Plus I'm a big-boned woman with lean muscle, especially in my thighs. Involuntary Slavery...Involuntary Slavery....Who sang that? I think it was 'Voluntary slavery.' I'll ask Tom. You know what I'm afraid of right now? I'm afraid that in the morning when I go outside in my 'jammies that I'm going to be face to face with a black bear. That's the extent of my fear. Roupell? I'd spit in his eye and he'd fall over like a leaf on a branch in late autumn. It's been raining a lot here too. It should not be. It is supposed to be in the 75-80f range and with low humidity. Rain is predicted for the rest of the weekend. Ummmm...is this the Weather Channel forum? How's the weather?

Subject: CD should change the name From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 12:34:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe Positively Prem's Pals (TM) I'm going to follow Cynthia's direction and read LG once in a while, but not post. I got told to 'fuck off' for my last efforts.

Subject: Positively Prem's Pals (TM)...LOL! [nt] From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 12:36:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Why I don't post on LG From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 02:01:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat, Well, I did post a couple of times this week but I am most unwelcome there so won't put myself through the trouble anymore either. It's not worth it because with GuruDeb there guarding the gates the probability of being trashed is 100%. One can only take so much of that before it wears thin. Chris said to WH: I know it takes time to forumate thoughts which are presented here. Please save your text in case it is deleted so that you can repost it if you feel it is worth shareing I hope that people will not give up and share what is truely positive in their lives so we can all benefit. What he's basically saying is that if people are in their minds (thinking, analyzing, confronting) forget about it. So it is still the old premie cult conditioning but now it's 'post only nice chit-chat.' Can't rock that boat... Interesting. Weird. Troubling. Not surprising.

Subject: ATTENTION LONDON EX'S!! From: Joy To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 00:27:50 (PDT) Email Address: joyfenwick@onetel.net.uk Message: Spontaneous mini-Latvian announcement! The famous (or perhaps I should say infamous) Joe Whalen (aka Joe and JW) of San Francisco will be passing through London tonight on his way back from a walking holiday in Ireland and Wales and I will be meeting him for dinner at an Indian restaurant in Kensington. He mentioned that he'd like to meet up with any Forum ex's who'd be interested, so if anybody around London is not otherwise engaged this evening and would like to stop by between 6-8 and say hello or have dinner or a drink, we'd be glad to see you! Nigel and Moley were going to attend, but decided at the last minute it was just too far to drive all the way from Liverpool for dinner :( We'll be at the Kensington Tandoori, 1 Abingdon Road, which is about four or five blocks west of the Kensington High Street underground stop, on the same side of the road. Perhaps if you're planning on coming you could RSVP to my mobile so we can alert the restaurant if a crowd is going to come (07754 472015). Hope to see some of you there!! Love, Joy

Subject: Hey Joe! Hey Joy! From: cq To: Joy Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 08:15:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Would have loved to meet up for a meal. If there's a next time, why not email us a fortnight or two before? It would have made an excellent excuse for the Latvian nite we haven't yet had this year! Enjoy. Chris

Subject: Tell Joe Hello for me... From: Cynthia To: Joy Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 12:38:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...and please tell him he's terribly missed here, I mean it! Love, Cynthia

Subject: Curry in a hurry! From: Mahatma Coat To: Joy Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 07:52:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jai satchitanand dear Jwa, So really, sister ji. You will be having such a blissful gathering. As my old friend Rajeshwar Ji always says Meeting without eating is cheating! And a big hello to that old manmat Joe Ji. If only he is seeing Prem Rawat of the famous and especial Prem Rawat Foundation, he would be just blissing out like old mahatma ji. Mahatma Coat, remembering that your gulab jamens are the best

Subject: My adventure at the Vancouver program From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 08:45:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As it happened, I was over in Van most of the last two weeks doing a murder prelim. God, what a great city this time of year! Walked with some friends around the seawall, Stanley Park, English Bay and up through Yaletown for three hours Tudesday night marvelling constantly at how beautiful it was. Anyway, my prelim ended yesterday morning which gave me just the time I needed to pick up my friend Colin's girlfriend, Honor, who I was bringing back to Vic and who was more than happy to join me for this bizarre little detour into midle-aged cult land. We had the EPO home page printed and fitted onto a single letter-size sheet of paper, wrote on it: IT'S TIME YOU KNEW THE REAL STORY! and: CHECK OUT EX-PREMIE.ORG and: IT'S TIME TO DOUBT THE 'PURITY OF THE MASTER' and copied three hundred in flourescent green. We grabbed a couple of falafels and latkes and drove out to the hotel near the airport. Laurie wanted to come but was stuck in Victoria on business. Too bad, she missed a real circus alright. I'd already called the hotel manager and told him what was cooking. Turned him on to EPO which he perused and explained to him why I wanted to be there. He was bemused at the prospect of having rented out his ballroom to a real live cult but of course there was nothing really he could do about it. Nor did I expect him to. I just wanted to establish a rapport with the guy who I knew the cult would be asking to kick my ass off the hotel premises as soon as they saw me. It worked as when the goons really did make that move, I asked to speak to him, the got him and he just laughed with me at the whole affair. In fact, all the hotel staff we spoke to, everyone but the cult members themselves, had a hard time taking this 'event' sponsored by 'Northwest Events' seriously. Of course not. So Honor and I get there around four, four-thirty, and many of the people are already inside. We stand by the doors, someone must have recognized me or something, or maybe just caught a glimpse of the two, extremely casually-dressed people standing outside the lobby doors not trying (then) to get in and the security guys all started whispering and pointing at us. At this point I'm wondering how this is all going to go down and why in the world I brought Honor. I mean there's this girl with her half of the flyers getting some of the meanest looks I've ever seen ... and for what? My middle-age vengeance story? But, not to worry. It actually turned out to be a lot of weird fun. I'm sure Honor wouldn't have missed it for the world. I just wish Laurie could have been there too. We decided to drift over to the main lobby where the registration tables were. Chuck Young who I hadn't seen in about 20 years and who was looking pretty overheated in an over-stuffed suit came up to me just to say 'Hi Jim. Too bad the event's completely full.' which, of course, was a lie. I just smiled and said how happy I was to see him too and we drifted away. We ended up following this trickle of lost souls to yet another part of the hotel for people who hadn't registered but who wanted in. It was hilarious. Remember the scene in the Lord of the Universe video where everyone's swarming the Knowledge tables at Millenium? It was kind of like that only a lot smaller and a lot older, more tired. A line formed outside this small, inside office where people were being screened by an instructor to see if they really had Knowledge. I'd forgotten to prepare Honor for this so I showed her the techniques right there in the hallway, in between handing out the odd flyer or two. But we both knew she'd never pass muster ('many are called' and all that). Besides, Leon Hawrylenko, now being wonderfully important organizing this gate-keeping for Noah's Ark, saw me. No hi or anything. are you kidding? I said something to him but you'd think he owed me money or something, the way he turned away. Oh well. This was one of my 'big brothers' when I moved into the ashram 28 years ago. He got my a job where he worked, we were together day in and day out. Now I'm a pariah. Oh well. This woman started talking to us. She'd had knowledge for 20 years and knew beyond question that no one connected to EPO could have possibly had a 'real experience'. She also knew that Honor and I were feeding our 'negative currents'. I couldn't stop laughing. I ran into Mike Smith huddled outside that office too. Mike never pays to get in, has never given Maharaji a dime and has probably gone through this humiliating cattle call consistently for the last three decades. Honor and I knew the gig was up in terms of our getting in to see the actual cult leader himself but as we were leaving we hard the negative currents woman bitching, quite loudly, about how 'they've never had their databases in order for the last twent years!'. She claimed that she'd registered and that her good friend, Sid, (who I was supposed to know -- she'd mentioned him earlier to us during our lecture), who was actually organizing this whole thing could vouch for her. In other words, she wasn't really like the premie riff raff waiting to be screened like dirty, smelly refugees at Ellis Island. As we walked away we returned her warning about negative currents and walked back to the main hall. Honor couldn't believe it. This was a cult, a real live cult and that woman, for all her airs, reminded her of an in-your-face junkie down at Main and Hastings. This was starting to get fun. Where to now? Well, at this point we decided to put flyers on everyones' windshield. We weren't going to get into the hall and it just felt kind of awkward standing around hoping to catch someone's eye when they went in. The cars would be a good place to start and we could always get more flyers printed across the street if need be. We did a few strips of cars but then went back into the hotel to try to gain access to the inside parking there and maybe even get our extra copies printed right there in their hotel business centre. Big mistake that was as the crowd was in the hall and the security guys had nothing better to now than chase us around trying to kick us off the premises altogether. That's when I called for the manager. Just as he showed up, though, the same old security guru Neville had apparently met at Amaroo showed up and brushed the suits away. Shook my hand, introduced himself as Morgan Smith. Honor and I had already decided to retreat to the bar for a drink while we were waiting for the program to end so we could hand out our leaflets and good ol' Morgan and his partner, Denise, bought the first round. What a character! (more later)

Subject: And now .. the REST of the story From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 15:19:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Morgan is, by his own frank and regular admission, a dirty old man and he couldn't stop flirting with Honor. He did pause long enough to ask me what EPO was all about and to tell me how wrong he thought the premies were to stave off my efforts to inform the public. After all, that's all we were doing. Honor's line was a simple one. She knows nothing really about the cult (or at least didn't until yesterday) but she said it all when she said we were just there promoting 'open mindedness'. How ironic given how proud we early premies were of our 'open minds'. But that wheel had definitely turned and 'open mindedness' was a rare commodity at the Executive Airport Inn. Except for Morgan Smith, that is. Morgan wanted the goods so I gave him a taste. Told him about Jagdeo and the bicyclist, two examples of Maharaji's essential lack of character. I knew this guy had his own unique relationship with his 'client' and didn't invite comment, really. What was he going to say, after all? But he seemed to really like us, kept talking about taking me and Laurie to the Amazon (don't know what he's got in mind for Honor), and offered as well to place some leaflets for us inside on one of the information tables. Obviously, he had no idea what he was really dealing with or was just working us a bit -- who knows? -- but he did get the goons to back off, leaving us to stand on hotel property so we could hand out our flyers as people emerged from the cult meeting. Morgan and Denise told us how much they liked Neville too. Morgan takes credit for saving Neville from getting punched out. Neville, if you're reading this, I know you said something about this guy but I can't remember what. Did he really intervene like that? Was it necessary? After a while, Scotty, our old X-Flies drummer who'd since moved to Vancouver and who'd come over after work to see if he could see a real, live cult leader, but who didn't because he doesn't have Knowledge, but who sat with us anyway at the bar, left to go home, Morgan went back to hang with the goons and Honor and I took up position. We waited. And waited. And waited. At one point, this Fijian East Indian guy (lots in Van) came over with his little baby in his arms. He was waiting for his wife, a premie of five years, who was certain that they new car they'd won was a gift from the guru. He spoke about how his wife was just completely gaga over Maharaji and watched videos daily. The baby loved Maharaji too and when I started to say a discouraging word she began to cry. We tried to start saying how much we loved Maharaji (even though he's a complete fraud) but the child was no fool and kept on wailing. The guy had no beef with Maharaji 'cause he liked the words, all that love stuff. I pointed out that Sai Baba, another Fijian Favorite, also talked like that even as he'd whack his male devotees off in the name of spiritual refinement. Whatever, he liked Sai Baba too. Finally, the program ended and the crowd starting shuffling, ambling, drifting, crawling, tip-toeing out. Oh my god, do I look that old too? Well, if I do I don't want to know about it. This was spooky, all these nicely-dressed, middle-aged fruit flies modestly tipsy on their master's rotten peaches. It was unseemly. They had nothing really to say to one another. They were just .... drifting. No, not particularly happy, not unhappy, just kind of ... drifting. Honor and I most respectfully (what else?) handed out flyers, at least to the extent we could. Some people took them, many did not. Some returned them. One brother told me to shove it where the sun don't shine. I chased him down for an argument but he backed off. I wanted to argue with a premie and was starting to miss the forum. Sigh... One woman came running up to Honor to whisper 'God Bless You! to which Honor replied that she'd love that but He wouldn't let her in to see Him because she didn't have Knowledge! Things got a little rude in places. We had a few flyers thrown back at us with complementary commentary. Some guy crumpled one up into a ball and hit me on the back of the head. Some other guy ripped all Honor's flyers out of her hand and a few other Indian guys started milling around her making her feel a little uneasy. That's when she suggested we leave and, seeing as pretty much everyone had left already (no twadry, over-priced trinkets at this one), our work was done and we started to go. But not before a few big hugs from a couple of long-time-no-seers like Debbie (Maha) Price or Richard What's-His-Name. Judith Wells came up and asked me most rudely if what I was doing wasn't rude. I told her it wasn't and she started to laugh with me. Sylvia from Vancouver gave me that oh-so-haughty cold shoulder, almost as dismissive as Chuck Young. What a pompous creep he turned into. I was pleasant as a plum throughout. Carlos, you should have seen me! I think even you, in your over-the-top hypocritical self-righteousness would have been proud to know me. Mind you, I'm probably twisting something by even mentioning your name. I'll await your correction but, if I may, I'd like to say, right here, right now, that I think I represented the online ex-premie and premie community admirably. I know you couldn't be there, Cat, etc. but I was there for you. We're all one, you know. There was a moment. Peter MacDonald walked by wheeling some woman, clearly not his wife, in a wheelchair. I offered a friendly 'hi' but he just kept on walking. That's when I ran up to him and said ... well, first you have to understand. Peter was a completely dysfunctional jerk who lived in the Calgary ashram with me just before I split. As I was walking out the door, he threatened me with a life of emptiness along the lines of the devotee who goes to the river to get the water blah blah blah. The premie equivalent of the black spot. Cursed forever. So when Pete blew me off like that I got angry. I ran after him, stopped him for a moment and said 'Pete, I just want to remind you what a complete asshole you were to me when I was leaving the ashram. The guilt trip you laid on me then was unconscionable. And now look at you! Still stuck in this dwindling band of Shakers. Good for you, asshole! Like I say, Carlos, you would have been proud. Oh yeah, Caroline from Van was sweet as pie but Reena from Calgary, getting off the airport shuttle, could only look at me askance. What are YOU doing here? Yes, nice to see you, too, Reena. Did you miss me all these years? And then that was it. Like I say, Honor was starting to feel a bit scared and we'd already infected the bulk of the crowd with our neural neutron bomb. Whether they took a flyer or not, whether they read the site or not, it's now clear to all the premies in this neck of the woods at least that, while the Hare Krisnas might not care anymore, and while the Christians might not either, there's a whole now breed of critic who think's it's worthwhile to bother shaking this middle-aged baby crib and that's Maharaji's own former followers. AND they know there's some sort of website. Sure, a lot of people told me they've already seen it. Well, that's good. That's called infection. Honor had her own astute observations and said she'll post them herself when she can get near a computer. I can't wait. She was so on the whole point of doing this. But I'll let her explain that. But on the ferry we bumped into a couple of Victoria premies (there are, altogether, just a few, of course). Phil Bowslby looked completely pitiful and out of place in his Salvation Army suit. He was so nervous as we sat down he first started meditating on us and then took out paper pretending to do cartoons of us. He wasn't doing anything but avoid eye contact. Junas -- bitch! -- got up the moment we sat down and told Phil she'd meet him in the car. Did I say 'bitch'? BITCH! Mike Smith and John Martin hung around. I asked them about the program, were there any highlights, that kind of thing. They both said it was great. Someone had apparently -- get this -- told Maharaji they loved him! Maharaji then said that wasn't enough, there was nothing special about him. He didn't want to be put on a pedestal; we gotta learn to love one another. (Jot that one down and put it someplace you won't lose it!). I said that's all fine, I guess, but how does it jive with his darshan line at Amaroo a couple of months ago. John then told me it was a scientific transfer of energy as if he didn't understand how that fact complicated his earlier answer. Honor and I could only laugh.

Subject: ****best of forum*** From: Susan To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 22:41:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It sounds like a very excellent adenture and one I sometimes fantasize about myself. Oh to have the opportunity to look down on him ( I' a fot taller I think) and tell him what I think. I hear there is something coming up in Pasadena soon. Do I have the guts? Or more importantly, wouldn't I rather be at Disneyland.

Subject: Re: And now .. the REST of the story From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 09:44:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, you said, 'They had nothing really to say to one another. They were just .... drifting. No, not particularly happy, not unhappy, just kind of ... drifting.' Well the heck is what's wrong with drifting? Seems like a useful state to have in your arsenal of states. One more place to go, one more option. I like to drift now and then. It's a nice break . . . sailing above the fray. BTW, loved your story.

Subject: Hi Dep, where've you been?en From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 14:03:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dep, you abandoned our conversation down below! Please respond to my last post down there - it was getting interesting! (The one about stories...) Best to you, Livia

Subject: Hi Livia, please give it a rest. [nt] From: Dep To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 19:45:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Sorry Dep, that's not playing ball, really, is it? From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 05:21:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dep, I can hear your exasperation with the thing, but I just thought it was odd that you suddenly abandoned our conversation at what I thought was a key moment. I was looking forward to what you were going to say next and then you vanished. Surely it's not so unreasonable of me to want to resolve the conversation? And why don't you want to? (A tenacious) Livia

Subject: Who's rude here? Livia? Dog? No one? From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 12:30:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This happens all the times, usually when a spiritual-type starts to get cornered. The corneree says he or she wants to drop it and the other person immediately assumes the role, whether they want it or not, of a bloodthirsty predator. Watch it, Liv. The next thing you know they'll be calling you an abusive bully. Query: Do people once engaged in a discussion have no obligation to follow through? What, if anything, do they owe the other side? Is it fair for them to walk away from the game and leave no score on the scoreboard as opposed to playing through to defeat?

Subject: Re: Who's rude here? Livia? Dog? No one? From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 06:36:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes I know, I'm beginning to feel like a bloodthirsty predator and I know Dep wanted to abandon the conversation. The point is, though, that the exchange was concise and pithy, no need for Dep to worry about how to find the time to respond to an endless and complex post. He just decided to abandon it, which left me feeling slightly frustrated, as I felt it was getting really interesting. Oh well... Love, Livia

Subject: FA - lost post From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 14:44:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just checked down there and while it was still there yesterday it's disappeared today. I think it was headed 'stories' and was part of a conversation between Dep & me about concepts of the spiritual kind. Is there any chance you could retrieve it from the (very recent) archives and bring it up here? Thanks! Love, Livia

Subject: Re: FA - lost post From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 01:09:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know what happened, Livia. I didn't see it. Did you check to see that it had been posted after you hit POST REPLY?

Subject: Re: FA - lost post From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 05:25:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The lost post wasn't from the other day, it was from 2-3 weeks back and it disappeared off the bottom. Can you retrieve it and bring it back up here? However I've just read the response from Dep who seems to have had enough of the thing! Hmmm... I still reckon it's worth a go though. Love to you, Livia X

Subject: Re: FA - lost post From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 11:20:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I personally can't retrieve it unless John has put it online in the archives on EPO and then everyone can see it. I don't do the archiving. John does that and the posts are only available once he has put them on EPO. Meantime they're on some computer in Latvia until he has the time to upload them to EPO. Good luck with getting Dep to complete a conversation. I have never succeeded. I don't think he enjoys the give and take of learning from each other and has a closed mind.

Subject: Re: And now .. the REST of the story From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 10:44:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's wrong with drifting? In certain circumstances, nothing, of course. But when you've flown or driven for days or hours to see your spiritual master (who just might be the Lord of the Universe) and have once again harkened to his vague call to square off against the world because you're one of the very few fortunate enough to have the true Knowledge without which life is meaningless, drifting's not quite enough. I'd want a little more myself. By the way, Dog, what would you have done if you were there? Say Maharaji came to your town? Would you go with your wife to see him? And if you did and Pullaver (the other ex who knows who you are) or I were there handing out fliers would you say hi? What would you do? Wink as you walked by? What?

Subject: Re: And now .. the REST of the story From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 18:15:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's wrong with drifting? In certain circumstances, nothing, of course. Great! Say Maharaji came to your town? Would you go with your wife to see him? No!

Subject: Thanks and here's why...... From: la-ex To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 21:25:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First of all, thanks for doing what you did, and sharing it with everyone. I'm sure it was a memorable evening for you, and a good bit of rascally fun too.... But I think the main point there that I think is so good, is that once one person pulls away the veil, and speaks the truth, it starts a ripple effect, and many people gradually start to realize that they too, can think, speak and act for themselves...this includes the questioning of the guru.... This public questioning of the guru is powerful, especially since he doesn't tolerate it, and is clearly defensive and on the run now.... The cracks and drips are becoming more apparent day by day now.....I guess the only suspense left now is when and how will m admit that he has fucked up and needs to retire in some way....well, not admit that he has fucked up, but that he needs to retire... Thanks again for the great work. I think EPO needs it's own special section for late breaking news of the latest exploits of exes at programs....maybe we can have an awards presentation at the end of each year for the best and most unique 'intervention'... I always wonder how much longer he can take it...the booze, the bullshit, the travelling, the deception,loss of revenue,the affairs, the ex movement etc.....I always then wonder who will be his appointment for the next 'PM', and then I just laugh....a really, really big laugh, as I try to imagine any premie gving the next 'PM' all of the divine status they have given m....imagine trying to believe that Joan Apter, or Daya, or Dave Smith, or Padarthanand or anyone for that matter would then be looked at as 'divne' like m is.... Thanks again....it inspires us all... And Neville, what next for an encore..?

Subject: Re: And now .. the REST of the story From: Carlos To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 18:57:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think the part of us where we may, indeed, be all one is the part of us that, as an atheist, I'd expect you to deny having. And I wouldn't be proud of you for just being what you ought to be anyway, polite. But your rescription of your behavior does sound like you stayed within the bounds of civilized behaviour. I'll admit that suprises me a bit. What really struck me was how you, an atheist, were doing what the hard core Jesus freaks used to do. And doing it in a more apropriate way, assuming you told the whole tale (which in this instance I think you did).

Subject: Carlos -- the Moral Conscience of Us All From: Jim To: Carlos Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 19:47:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just joking about representing you in any way, shape or for(u)m, Carlos. But thanks for signing off on my behaviour. You know that means a lot to me, pal. As for the irony that there I was taking over from the Jesus freaks, you're absolutely right. We were talking about that ourselves waiting for the ferry. Obviously, the Jesus freaks, etc. don't give a damn about Maharaji as, Lord of the Universe or not, he's pretty well fallen off the radar screen. But I'm a former follower who's pissed off. That's why I'm there.

Subject: Re: Carlos -- the Moral Conscience of Us All From: Carlos To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 01:15:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, isn't ita little strange to call me names for answering your question? Even for you? And as long as you protest without violence, I've got no problem with it. I did security at a Miami event, early 70's, where the Jesus freaks felt OK to 'stone' us, and a little kid, about 10 if I remember correctly, had to go to the hospital. I vastly prefer your style, as reported. My concern is that your stated aproval of attacking premies could be misinterpreted by some ex or never was to INCLUDE violence. If it happens, tho you will have had a part by a behaviour pattern that makes such interpretations easier for someone carried away by emotions or issues, I don't believe you will have any moral resposability and I am CERTAIN you will have no legal responsability. We are all accountable for our own actions, even somebody who loses it and behaves abhorently and violently to support an agenda. I might feel diferent about your moral responsability if I felt you sanctioned violence. But even with the low opinion I have of you, which I feel you have earned, I don't feel you had any such sick intent. But, since I don't pretend to be all knowing or a mind reader, as you do every time you try to devine my intentions (and thus far have never been right once, by the by), I can only judge you by your actions, not your intentions.

Subject: Give it a break, Carlos, you hypocrite From: Jim To: Carlos Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 13:04:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Carlos, You just can't stop, can you? Really, you are the most insufferably self-righteous person I've ever encountered. Hypocritical, too. I've never even come close to inciting violence against premies. Never. But you hang with a crowd on LG that's threatened to kill me, shoot me, smash my head with with a baseball bat and warned me my 'time was up'? Where was your big protest? Did you email CD and ask him to control the dogs of war? Did you contact the police? Did you say anything yourself to Roupell or Cat, the main known culprits? Those were real threats, Carlos. Even worse, in a way, than the one your friend Deborah uttered to have Pat killed which you say you don't care about. Pure hypocrisy, then, for you to start bitching about me inciting any violence, which I've never done anyway!

Subject: Carlos usurping my title or what?(nt) From: Susan To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 21:37:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: sorry, sometimes people would call me that seriously and it was a title I never deserved, desired or wanted. I am happy to give it to Carlitos.

Subject: The Moral Conscience of Us All From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 01:50:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Congratulations on a job well done! While reading your posts I tried to envision myself going to a program as you did, standing in protest of the cult. I have to say it took a lot of courage--I don't know if I could have done it. One thing that stood out for me as particularly funny was picturing you showing Honor the techniques so she could 'pass' to get into the program. How and where exactly did you do that, in the lobby? LOL! Thanks for all your efforts, gawd you're such a bully... Love, Cynth

Subject: Re: And now .. the REST of the story From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 16:44:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And now, the coveted Neville Award for swimming upstream goes to Jim! All I can say is the truth shall set you free. Anyone who takes the time to read EPO Best Of can decide for themselves. It's the ones who read it and aren't disturbed that worry me. Someone had apparently -- get this -- told Maharaji they loved him! Maharaji then said that wasn't enough, there was nothing special about him. He didn't want to be put on a pedestal; we gotta learn to love one another. As if MPR will ever get off the throne and give a hoot about anyone else but himself. Isn't that precisely what GMJ agreed to do 25 years ago with Mischler as witness and then balked? Similar situation with Dettmers. I'm counting the days until the Krishna costume gets dusted off again. These 'kinder gentler I'm only a teacher' phases are inevitably followed by renewed emphasis on devotion. Darshan and arti at Amaroo, anyone? The above comment from MPR is right out of the script written for him right here on F7. How much has been said here about MPR needing to be more human and how little he acknowledges relationships or emotions? Aah, the new improved touch-feely Satguru. Personally, I believe we here already do care about one another (recent Jello fights notwithstanding). Just go back and read that amazing thread started by Anth about loss. Richard, the touchy feely Ex

Subject: Hi Postie! Spot on! From: Marianne To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 17:48:37 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said. Just wanted to let you know that I am about to take that peptol bismol you suggested.... Fondly, Marianne

Subject: Re: Hi Postie! Spot on! From: Richard To: Marianne Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 18:01:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee thanks, Marianne. It's so obviously amazing that what he says and what he does are so far apart. Oh, puhleeeze take me off this throne and love each other. - Shri Prem Leo Buscaglia Ji You can cancel the Pepto Bismol prescription after all. Don't worry, the Leaders 'interview' is not at all spicey. Extremely white bread and bland as a matter of fact. Guaranteed not to amaze but it will amuse. Best wishes on your project. Richard

Subject: Well Gonzoed Jim. From: AJW To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 12:23:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, That was a great read. A piece of classic 'Gonzo Journalism'. It's hilarious the way the cult reacts. They'll probably set up some special meetings to discuss the new wave of Ex-premie activism. Even giving out a few harmless leaflets starts the cult tottering. Hope all is well with you and yours. Looking forwards to the next installment. Anth resting between matches.

Subject: So who are you supporting? From: JHB To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 14:31:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good to see you here, Anth. When are you coming for a real Latvian night? While I'm still single? Come on Brazil, Ireland, Korea, Japan, and ...... England! John.

Subject: A wife and two kids. From: AJW To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 07:35:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, I'm supporting a wife and two kids (actually, it's not quite like that, and I'd like to change the subject). I've been glued to the competition and am supporting the same as you I think. (UNfortunately Latvia didn't qualify.) Your second sentence makes me wonder if love is in the air? Is that the patter of expensive adolescent trainers I hear in the distance. Anth, looking forward to 2017.

Subject: If you hadn't worn your baseball cap From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 11:14:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .........backwards - you might have gotten in.

Subject: Pat... From: AJW To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 12:28:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat, He should have worn that cute salmon pink dress he went through darshan in, at Amaroo. Mind you- that butch security guy would have recognised him then. Anth the high heels.

Subject: Hi, Anth. Yes, he could have worn drag From: PatC To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 12:58:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some dark suit lawyer type drag might have worked. That little salmon pink number has seen better days.

Subject: At least... From: AJW To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 07:37:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, at least he got the stains out. He's put on weight you know, and it doesn't hang on him so well, (so I'm told). Anthia the malicious gossip.

Subject: Re: My adventure at the Vancouver program From: Pat W To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 10:26:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow...I guess this form of protest is going to become an increasingly common sight at 'events'. That was quite an adventure Jim. The next stage will be...well... how about selling CD's of interviews with the 'Mikes' and others? Ex-premie music CD's!? I guess there's not much that can be done to stop peaceful protest. Way to go! Looking forward to the next installment...

Subject: Re: My adventure at the Vancouver program From: Loaf To: Pat W Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 10:47:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can we have ex-premie merchandising done ? From the 70s Big Kipper Ties to silk knickers and classy mugs with tiny logos on

Subject: Re: My adventure at the Vancouver program From: Thorin To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 08:58:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, what a scream - totally hilarious, so who's got the big cajones now! Thanks! You said more later just as you were were getting into the swing of things with Morgan Smith. I guess 'more later' is Morgan Smith's heartfelt and totally revised thoughts and posts on F7. Hopefully you gave him (and Denise) the link? Waiting with baited breath, Thorin

Subject: More, more!!! From: Will To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 10:30:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: With details.

Subject: well done From: John Macgregor To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 18:18:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: An excellent and entertaining post, Jim. A brave thing to do - and no doubt kind of fun too. This peaceful protest thing is turning into quite a phenomenon, what with you and Neville going at it at different ends of the Earth. Handing out leaflets with the ex-premie-org address really does it all. The longer I stay out, the more I realise that that place is a goldmine. Every week I get an email or phone call from someone I last knew as a premie - and who had in the meantime found EPO and (usually quietly) exited. Spoke to Neville at length this week (it's fairly hard to speak with Neville in any other way (-: ), and he is very keen to do more. Got a phone call last night from a premie I hadn't heard from in 4 years - ex-premie now: he's left the fold without a word to anyone - who tells me the strong tip for the next M event at Amaroo is August 30,31/Sept 1. I suspect that may draw a small Neville support group this time. Anyway Jim, a great effort. Best, John

Subject: How dare he come to your town ! From: bill To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 19:07:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Surely the buzz was Jim Heller Jim Heller Jim Heller at all the security meetings. Was Deborah there? Attending as her non ex status warrents. Great funny lines as usual Jimbo, Your freind will make a nice forum addition when she posts. John Adorney is on digital tv music rotation on the new age channel with a song called 'where would I go' which is acoustic guitar playing that song 'leaving your lotus feet'. I heard it twice so far. And I dont even listen to that channel hardly at all. The grace? Consider posting your leaflets. Thanks for representing us there at the freakish nonsense festival. I guess that was guru puja for the west coast this year. Well, you know, there is no doubt that his majesty knew you were there. He gets to find out all the security news and probably had a pissed off drink in your honor. Your -dareing to squeak- as he once warned us not to do, for all these years, calling his home, his top woman head of elan, all the work you have done here on the forum, all the efforts to contact the former upper dust, and bring them online, ect, thanks Jim.

Subject: Daring to squeak! From: Will To: bill Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 08:55:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bill, That 'daring to squeak' comment sounds interesting. I don't suppose you have the actual quote, do you? Can you at least paraphrase the whole quote and put it into context? Since the early 70's, Prem Rawat surely must have gotten quite used to people doing his bidding, on many levels, without squeaking. This growing opposition to him must be putting him through some changes. Like Jim has done, I think we should continue to squeak. And not only those of us who are firmly exes. If the premies are experiencing discontent and something less than fulfillment, then they should have enough confidence in their Master to expect him to help in some way, and they should say so. I don't believe that even the most self-centered premie can be really content with his or her own meditation efforts and totally unconcerned about the controversial objections that surround Prem Rawat and his image-problem in society. Prem Rawat, if you are indeed a teacher of Self-Knowledge, then do something about this situation of discontent among those of us who have received 'your' Knowledge. There are thousands of us who have received Knowledge, hoping for fulfillment of the yearning of the heart. So be the leader, bring about the harmony and respect and honor that we all were looking for. Do something that will satisfy not just the remaining few hundred that still follow along without squeaking, but address the concerns of those who have expressed their discontent. Continued silence on your part is not the answer. There are still premies who put you on a pedestal, very much so. And while doing so, they put themselves down. I live in a city where you have been invited this summer. I've seen the invitation. The premies describe themselves as coconuts anxiously awaiting you, the sun, to shine on them. Is this the fruits of receiving Knowledge from you?! Becoming a coconut, ever dependent on you as the source. Do you empower your students, or do you just empower yourself? I know these people and I do not like to see them as middle-aged coconuts. If there IS something inherently true about Knowledge, the inner source, then isn't it about time that we see the success that comes from contacting that source within? Isn't it about time that your students become empowered people? Isn't it about time that all the cultish aspects that society can never accept be put aside, not by exes, but by you? After all, what always happens with a guru-devotee cult is the creation of yet another religious system to believe in. We were attracted to the supposed absence of religion that was promised with Knowledge. We were attracted to the ultimate Knowledge that was direct inner experience, that could be shared by all - no matter what faith, and which brings about harmony. Where is that true Knowledge? How is it manifesting? But is there actually something that Prem Rawat can do, to satisfy his critics and to further instruct those who wish to be his students? This is a very interesting question, and I think there are in fact things that Prem Rawat could do. I can think of a few things myself. A willingness to interact respectfully with so-called ex-premies, for a starter. An open dialogue about the past, with no revisionist efforts. Full justice regarding Jagdeo. No arti sung directly to the human guru, but if sung at all, to the power that IS actually the mother and father of all. A true evolution from 'Satguru' to 'teacher of Self-Knowledge' where there is no pedestal, and no pretense of a 'scientific transer of energy' from the guru to the devotee. Many speakers who speak from their own experience, not just 'THE Speaker.' Any others? I'm not saying I would become a student again, but at least I might be able to be friends with my old friends again without there being any hard feelings and religious hang-ups.

Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM***nomination [nt] From: Livia To: Will Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 05:42:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM***nomination From: Livia To: Will Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 05:42:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Excellent Post Will... From: Pat W To: Will Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 12:32:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...my feelings precisely. I wonder if Maharaji could ever show enough concern to make some attempt to talk with people who's 'premie-ness' is wavering or resolutely 'ex'. The guy that Jim described, whose job it was to 'deal' with him at the Vancouver program, maybe heralds a 'soft touch' approach to dealing with critics- maybe this could extend to Maharaji being willing to address the problems that people have coming to terms with what he put them through. Your point about getting some respect back from old premie friends is relevant. M's critics are usually seen as plain wrong or with unjustified complaints. Any concession from Maharaji himself would make premies more inclined to give exes a little more credit. As it is, I have old premie friends who are quite happy to tell me that I never had any valid experience..after all..I wouldn't be saying the things I do if I had really listened to Maharaji all along and had an experience would I? Here's a quote from a recent letter from a premie friend: ÒYou understand nothing you are firmly entrenched in the mind set of 1979 which I guess comes from not listening. I am on a journey of realisation guided by M and itÕs clearly something you know nothing about the great tragedy being you think you know what it is but you donÕt. No wonder people stay away from you.' I feel like telling 'em 'Hey, Maharaji...back me up here..you for one know that I had experience and really listened' Trouble is it's looking increasingly like I am/was the only one who really knew how sincere and 'applied' I was. It's so easy for others to conveniently dimiss one as having had all the wrong motives and thus..no experience.

Subject: 'we never experienced K' From: Livia To: Pat W Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 05:51:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is a depressingly typical premie response to exdom: 'you couldn't have ever experienced Knowledge to feel the way you do.' It's as ridiculous as it is insulting. I've had it said to me on LG a few times and find it patronising in the extreme - just who do these people think they are?! 'Twould be far more reasonable bearing in mind their mindset as premies to say 'you've obviously forgotten the experience you must have once had to stay with it as long as you did...' What they seem unable to contemplate is that we did experience it and still do, even! It's just that we know longer hang onto the belief that we need M for the experience to happen... Have fun in sunny Brighton over the gathering weeks! Love Livia

Subject: 'Hey, Maharaji, back me up here' - LOL! From: Jim To: Pat W Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 12:39:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So right, you guys. Maharaji ridicules us, premies will ridicule us. If he talks with us, they'll talk with us. Ain't never gonna happen though, I'm afraid. Not until Maharaji has better answers than I think he has for all we'd ask him. Perhaps that's part of the problem. His whole shtick, past and present, is really so utterly indefensible, he's best saying nothing. After all, what could he say anyway?

Subject: Here's my guess about Rawat's future From: Will To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 13:40:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's interesting to think about what possible choices for his future that Prem Rawat really has now. It's hard for me to say because I really don't know if Prem Rawat: (a) believes in himself or not (b) believes in Self-Knowledge or not (c) even cares one way or the other (d) likes people or not (e) has narcissistic personality disorder or is totally insane (f) has any clue whatsoever about the real facts of life It's also hard to me to say because what alternatives there could possibly be depends on whether the universe is essentially mind/consciousness manifesting matter or just matter generating the very limited mind/consciousness that we humans know. I really don't know that answer to that question, so I have to refrain from a committed decision here. But my feeling still is that there is intelligent mind generating the manifest world. And I know, of course, that Jim and others feel the opposite. So it is very hard for me to imagine what Prem Rawat would say if he ever came clean, so to speak, and revealed the whole truth about himself as he sees it. But I do see two alternatives. Let's say that there is some sincerity in what he has attempted to be and do as a Master. He could continue to accept and instruct students in a more human way, OR he could retire into complete ordinary humanness and let the remaining premies entirely off the hook. Personally, my guess is this: he will continue to be what he actually is now - a fake Master leading a bunch of ignoramuses nowhere.

Subject: Re: Here's my guess about Rawat's future From: bill To: Will Date Posted: Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 16:51:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your a-f is a good list. You said; ''It's also hard to me to say because what alternatives there could possibly be depends on whether the universe is essentially mind/consciousness manifesting matter or just matter generating the very limited mind/consciousness that we humans know. I really don't know that answer to that question, so I have to refrain from a committed decision here. But my feeling still is that there is intelligent mind generating the manifest world. And I know, of course, that Jim and others feel the opposite.'' I myself have collapsed in front of the withering blasts of the grand poobah of troubles. Our limits and troubles are too smart and personal to be blamed on anything but design. I cannot muster up any sort of theory or offer support for any theory's that dont incorporate our limits and troubles and human nature into thier theory. Seems like most everyone has it wrong to some degree, but any idea about life that does not recognise the dark stuff is too short sighted. We are lucky the evolution boys have put up such a fight for the last century, it has at least broadened the level of argument and provided some smart fun. And it frustrated a lot of know it all religious guys. You know, I agree with Jim that the rawat theory has no sensible options and can only morph into some other brand of time wasting madness and has no redeeming value and can not evolve in any way to gain value. Much like all the other god related groups !!

Subject: Even Nixon never said ''I'm sorry'' [nt] From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 12:46:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Pasadena From: Elan Vital To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 05:06:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ONLINE REGISTRATION will close on WEDNESDAY, JUNE 12 at 12:00 Noon Pacific Time. If you are not registered by this time will need to register on the day of the event. --I am amazed that I received this prior to June 12. The new EV'Sync team is on the ball. And you all thought EV was defunct. Now that's service to the master. Oh, that's right, I am an ex- and I do still receive EV mailings. Hmmmm. Maybe they're not so n'sync.

Subject: I'm gonna go. See ya at the Feet! From: Roger eDrek To: Elan Vital Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 08:47:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've really had a change of heart since all the yelling and screaming that there's been on these Forums. You ex-premies are all a bunch of loosers and from now on I'm siding with the winners. And the real winner is Maharaji, er, I mean Prem. I didn't find out in time to register for Pasadena and I don't have a SmartCard like I oughta, but I know that the Master will see that I am sincere (without wax) and he will welcome me back to the FEET where I can really let it go. I tell ya, I'm gonna be blubbering at this one. It's been a long, long time. Hey, TED Farkel, ya gonna get on up outta the swamps and come see the Lord?

Subject: Re: I'm gonna go. See ya at the Feet! From: Cynthia To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 12:33:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just remember this Roger: if you don't have a smart card you must know when you got K, from whom, and the date. It's very important, doncha know... How are you? Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: I'm gonna go. See ya at the Feet! From: Roger eDrek To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 18:58:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm fine, Cynthia. How are you? Don't know if you'll get this because it's scrolling off. I can't read or post from work anymore because they might be watching me, so I get a little tardy on the Forum, but I have been watching. And, oh my god! Love ya!

Subject: Re: I'm gonna go. See ya at the Feet! From: another ex To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 08:31:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Roger, Since yer headed fer the LOTUS FEET, why not bring us all back some CHARANAMRIT water!!!!! Wow, man....it's been 20 years since I've had a swig of that stuff! Think of it...water actually touched to the Lotus Tootsies. With THAT shit around, mebbe we'll ALL get religion again!!!!!!!!! Don't fail us now, Roger. P.S. If you can't get the real stuff you can make your own!! Here's how: 1) Go thru a darshan line 2) Lick the Lotus Feet 3) Go back to your seat (without swallowing) and spit into a gallon jug of pure distilled water that you obtained earlier for this purpose. 4) Share the CHARANAMRIT with friends. (Can also be used to spike drinks of infidels, in hopes of bringin' 'em back ta th'Lord!!!!!!! GOOD LUCK, ROGER!!! WE'RE ALL COUNTIN' ON YA!!!!

Subject: Hoi Roger From: AJW To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 12:38:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Roger, Hope all is well with you and yours. Are you still living in the back of that broken down van behind the barn, and sleeping with a bottle of Jack Daniels in your hand and a pistol under your pillow? I'm sorry I'm no longer a millionaire computer entrepeneur, or I'd jet over and join you. We could have another night out in Oaklands. Yes, it feels like the lotus feet are calling again. I hear cosmic voices coming from Rawats trainers, saying, 'For fuck's sake come back. Who's gonna pay the rent?' Okay, so the guy never got the lion to shag the lamb, but you gotta admit, he's a goer. Anth the wise-boy.

Subject: Re: Hoi Roger From: Roger eDrek To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 19:00:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know that you've fallen from the mighty, Anth, but I still love you and think the most of ya! Me, I'll be trying the sneak around to get into see the Lard.

Subject: Re: The Lion From: Tim G To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 13:24:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Was it the great W.C. Fields who said ' The lion will lie down with the lamb, but the lamb won't get much sleep.'

Subject: W C Fields? No! - Woody Allen! From: cq To: Tim G Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 13:33:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yup, that was one of Woody Allen's. As is this: 'Yea, I shall walk through the valley of death .... In fact, now that I think of it, I shall run through the valley of death; you get through the valley much faster that way.' W C Fields, (a heavy drinker) was famous for his views on water. Asked why he didn't favour it, he replied: 'I don't drink water - fish fuck in it'. ;)

Subject: Re: W C Fields? From: AV To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 14:04:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he (WC) also said 'never give a sucker an even break' :~)

Subject: Re: W C Fields? From: cq To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 14:23:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he certainly did. But what's it mean? Eh?

Subject: Where the hell is Pasadena? From: gErRy To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 10:05:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They gotta airport big enough to land the EPO jet? I could swing by Alabama, I guess, and pick up Farkel. S'pose you'll be hitchin' agin, eh Rog?

Subject: Re: Where the hell is Pasadena? From: Roger eDrek To: gErRy Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 18:56:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry, it's bad, but not that bad. I'll be taking the Greyhound, of course.

Subject: easy ger-like this: From: janet To: gErRy Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 06:37:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ya come down the pacific coast highway till you hit santa monica. you turn east there at the start of I-10 and take it to go into downtown LA.as you're approaching downtown, there you look for the signs to take you north [ i.e., left- but you have to change freeways so its a trick cloverleaf loop]outta downtown, going up into the suburbs of glendale and pasadena. be careful, traffic's packed, tight and fast. stay very alert navigating lane changes. you'll drive north outta downtown on old roads overcrowded with traffic. you go thru glendale first. then comes pasadena. it's more neighborhood than 'city'. once you hit pasadena, watch for the mall in the middle of town. it'll be on the right. find some parking on the block the mall is on, get out, and the hall is straight across the street, south from the mall. maybe a city block long, altogether, one facing the other. the street is Green street. i know that complex real well. i worked the whole life expo there more than once, and went to the first ever live satellite broadcast of the Lard out of that building a few years back. it's not big. Long Beach is bigger. if you want airport approach, come into burbank or van nuys airport. you'll have to drive over from one valley to the other, san fernando to san gabriel. the reagan freeway crosses from one into the other up at the north end of the SF valley and brings you into pasadena closer to the mall. look at a map of LA for clearer details . me--not driving, i would use the metro and the bus. you angelenos reading--the MTA 181 goes right there.

Subject: I received this notice From: Tom To: gErRy Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 12:56:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This email updates information for the Pasadena event and is for people from North America. If you have already registered online, thank you for doing so. Our plan is to email your seat assignment within the next several days. Register online now - If you know of anyone who needs to register for the event, and if they do not have a computer, there are other options to getting online: most libraries or Kinkos can be used, or you can help register them yourself. Seats for the event will be assigned on a first-come, first-served basis. Traffic: Important update. There is a very large event happening at the Rose Bowl on the same day as our event, and the Rose Bowl is expecting about 50,000 people, so please be aware that traffic could be very heavy. Security: Please remember, everyone will need to pass though a security screening, so be early and do not bring cameras or recording devices as they will not be allowed in the hall. Registration time: On site Registration will be open from 9am till 4pm on the 15th at the Conference center. Smart Card: There will be an opportunity to apply for a Smart Card at the event starting at 9:am on Saturday. Other Events: Please note that there are no other events scheduled for the United States at this time. Travel Arrangements: At this time, Bestway has identified some special rates for flights to the Los Angeles area. Call Bestway at: 800-938-0786 Please stay in touch with the information website www.elanvital.org/june2002event or the info phone line 310-859-2284 for upcoming updates. ________________________________________________________________ Apparently the skeleton crew down at EV is keeping busy with this one US visit by the Guru Maharaj ji. I hope they don't have the same problems they encounter in Vancouver. I'll be the one with the moustache and receeding hairline.

Subject: SaiBaba Petition From: Jethro To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 00:20:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: http://www.petitiononline.com/saibaba/petition.html Public Petition for Official Investigations of Sathya Sai Baba His Worldwide Organization View Current Signatures - Sign the Petition To: All governments, human rights institutions, all religious and spiritual leaders, NGOs, politicians and official functionaries, and the media organizations of all countries. PUBLIC PETITION FOR OFFICIAL INVESTIGATIONS OF SATHYA SAI BABA AND HIS WORLDWIDE ORGANIZATION This Petition is to bring attention to serious allegations of child molestation and homosexual abuse by Sathya Sai Baba at his ashrams in South India, involving many victims there including boys and young men visiting from other countries. Another grave concern is the issue of unresolved murders at Sai Baba's main ashram in 1993. Sathya Sai Baba, an Indian man who claims to be the full manifestation of God on earth, is worshipped by several million followers from most countries of the world. These followers include heads of state, royalty and other well-known dignitaries. In the highest echelons of the Indian government, judiciary, and civil service (IAS) are many followers, including Prime Minister A.B. Vajpayee. Sathya Sai Baba has been charged by many individual victims of his assaults. The world's leading investigative newspaper media have reported on his alleged sexual molestations of numerous boys and young men from all over the world, many of whom were raised to believe that he was God Almighty. Some of the many highly credible personal testimonies can be examined at http://www.saiguru.net or at http://www.exbaba.com/. Certain officials of the Sathya Sai Organization have failed in their moral and compassionate duty by disregarding and not alerting membership to the allegations, thus putting minors at risk in Sai Baba's presence. (In some countries, sexual abuse is taken so seriously that Mandatory Reporting laws exist.) These officials, some being educators and health care professionals, have lacked the moral courage to exercise due care, instead complying with a campaign of secrecy and cover-up, the alleged molestations having continued for at least 30 years. A directive was issued to various high office-bearers in the organization banning discussion of these allegations in the centres. The US State Department is aware of these many allegations of sexual abuse and has a current consular warning in effect for all US travellers going to India, making specific reference to Andhra Pradesh State, where Sathya Sai Baba’s main ashram is located. (see below, 1-) Further, a British MP has lodged questions in the House of Commons concerning possible risk to the children of UK citizens visiting Sai Baba in India. (see below, 2-) UNESCO officially withdrew from an educational conference planned for September 2000 at Sai Baba's ashram under the auspices of the Sathya Sai Organization, citing 'widely reported allegations of sexual abuse involving youth and children ... levelled at the leader of the movement in question, Sathya Sai Baba.' (see below, 3-) In June 1993, Sai Baba passively stood by while six persons were murdered in his apartments in Prashanthi Nilayam independent township, his main ashram, known to be completely under his strict control. After discussions between Sai Baba's officials and the local police, the police shot at close range and in cold blood killed four of these persons. Although Sai Baba reportedly first spoke to the intruders and remained nearby throughout the whole episode, conferring with his officials, he was not even questioned by police or law investigators! Due to their serious inconsistency and ineptitude, the case was taken over from the local police by the CBI, but the entire investigation was subsequently quashed by government order by the intervention of devotees of Sai Baba holding top positions of political power. Thus, no adequate court action was taken and no justice or redress was possible for the victims’ families. (see below, 4 and 5-) In terms of human rights, local governments, as well as the national government of India, are obliged to investigate all well-founded accusations of violations of human rights they receive. To sustain police or judicial inactivity violates the human rights of the victims and turns also the civil authorities into violators of human rights. We appeal to all those who wish that these matters should be properly investigated, and who wish that the responsible persons be made accountable through proper legal process, to PLEASE SIGN THIS PETITION. We especially appeal to all religious and spiritual leaders, NGOs, politicians and official functionaries, and the media organizations of all countries to participate. This Petition is for the benefit of the general public and will be sent to any relevant authority that may forward the Petition. Please see sign-up instructions on the page. The initiators of this Petition (see the Undersigned, below) each left the Sathya Sai Baba cult for various reasons. Some have been active members of the Sathya Sai Organization for many years, others did not hold office in the SSO but were devoted followers. See personal resignation letters at www.saiguru.net SOURCE DOCUMENTATION Source documentation for the above matters is to be found on the Internet at a number of websites, as follows: 1.The US State Department’s warning to citizens travelling to Andhra Pradesh, November 23, 2001: India - Consular Information Sheet CRIME IN ANDHRA PRADESH - Americans traveling to or residing in Andhra Pradesh should also be aware that there have been media and other reports of inappropriate sexual behavior by a prominent local religious leader. Most of the reports indicate that the subjects of these approaches have been young male devotees, including a number of Americans. Although these reports are unconfirmed, American citizens should be aware of this information. Sai Baba is by far the most prominent religious leader in Andhra Pradesh. The actual name was no doubt omitted only because charges have not been laid. 2. British MP Tony Colman’s question in Parliament and letter to Prime Minister Tony Blair and Tony Blair’s reply. (See: http://edm.ais.co.uk/weblink/html/motion.html/ref=886which is linked to the UK’s House of Commons website http://www.parliament.uk/commons/HSECOM.HTM) 3. The International Headquarters of UNESCO issued a formal Media Advisory on September 15, 2000 stating that it would no longer sponsor or take part in a conference it had been due to co-organize with the Institute of Sathya Sai Education (Thailand) and The Flinders University Institute of International Education (Australia). The Advisory said that UNESCO was no longer associated in any way – through sponsorship, organization or participation of any kind – with the conference and that UNESCO was deeply concerned about widely-reported allegations of sexual abuse involving youths and children that had been levelled at the leader of the movement in question, Sathya Sai Baba. (The complete text of UNESCO WITHDRAWS FROM CONFERENCE – Paris 15/9/2000 – can be read on the website www.saiguru.net) 4. The four executed followers, who reportedly only wished to speak to Sai Baba, killed two of Sai Baba’s attendants in a knife fight. Sai Baba later publicly declared that there was no attempt on his life. Commenting upon the murders at the time, the International Chairman of Sai Baba’s Organization and a member of the Sathya Sai Central Trust, Indulal Shah, stated to pressmen: “…the matter is purely internal and we do not wish to have any law enforcement agency investigating into it.” (The Hindu, 10-6-1993). The only possible meaning of this is that the International Chairman of the Sathya Sai Organization would put the perpetrators of such major crimes completely above and beyond the law. This is exactly what has occurred so far. 5. For a documentation of most relevant reports, transcripts, proceedings and related materials on the murders issue, examine the 844-page book Murders in Sai Baba’s Bedroom by B. Premanand (publ. Premanand. 11/7 Chettipalayam Road, Podnadur, 641 023 Tamil Nadu, India). Transcripts and other data can be examined at http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/english.html – under the textbox “Murders” (see especially: “Excerpts from newspaper reports about the murders in Sai Baba's vicinity”). Sincerely, The Undersigned Name Country Period as a follower (from-to) (if applicable) Title or office in the S S Org. (if applicable) Comments 59. Lilian Pike USA 1980 - 1998 58. Lisa Tice USA 1985-2000 Ex-President Gig Harbor Center/7 years 57. false entry voided Bottom of Form 0 56. Newton Barry K. Australia 1994 - 2001 Ex Chairperson Pennant Hills, ex Deputy Chairperson NSW Zone B 55. Sergio Arturo Loyola Michel México march 1976 to december 2001 Composer and singer . Compositor y cantante No se vale que sb este usurpando el lugar del verdadero Dios por quién se vive. 54. Jacqueline Champana USA I have no sympathy for Pedaphiles 53. Ella Evers USA 1986-2000 Have been in various Officers' functions and hosted the Eugene Sai Center for fifteen years I wrote a letter to Dr. Goldstein after hearing about the pedophilia acts by Sai Baba. The Goldstein letter was returned to me unopened. 52. Jon Sutton USA 1986 -2000 Hosting the Eugene Sai Center for fifteen years 51. Sonia Mendoza de Rojas Spain 1990-2000 50. Johannes Aagaard Denmark President of the Dialog Center International (DCI) 49. miriam reinhart USA 1987-2000 President Eugene,OR chapter 1993-1995 thank you for doing this 48. false entry voided Bottom of Form 0 47. Michael Ward Canada/Australia Investigative party with friends involved since 1985 46. Bonita Schmelzer USA 45. Howard Wish USA 44. Bettina Woolard USA 1991 - 2000 SSE teacher and Service Coordinator 43. Seth Woolard U.S.A 1991-2000 42. Steve Woolard USA President of Walnut Creek, CA center for 5 years. 41. Rhonda Eicher usa Fight Evil with Good 40. Corrie Wiersma Holland 1991-2002 39. Tal Brooke USA 1969-1971 Author of AVATAR OF NIGHT Avatar of Night and the Hardback Lord of The Air were released in India by Vikas Publishing exposing Sai Baba's dark side. Avatar of Night is now available on Amazon.com. This 400 page book details my intense experience as a close disciple of Sai Baba who 38. false entry voided Bottom of Form 0 37. Marcia Miller U.S.A. 1984-2000 36. Egon Audhoe Suriname I am against religious delusions 35. Alexander Keilonat Germany 1998-2000 34. Margarita Sanchez Van Dyck Mexico 1984-2000 33. Juan de la Cruz Mexico 1992-2000 32. Marc-André St. Jean Canada Former member of Sai Center in Montreal 31. Dhyani Jo Sinclair Canada. Member and Sai Centre Secretary, 1995-2000. 30. Everett Shocket USA. 29. Barbara Shocket USA. 1980-1990. 28. Sharon Purcell USA . Follower for 32 years. Founder member of Tustin Center, California. 27. Sathya Purcell USA Lifetime follower until age 23. 26. Stijntje Riemersma The Netherlands. Follower for 20 years. Coordinator/Secretary Utrecht group, 6 years. 25. Hortense Quijs The Netherlands 1995 – 2000 Maastricht Group Coordinator 24. Reidun Priddy Norway. 1983-2000. Founder member and Seva Wing Coordinator 1986-1998 23. Robert Priddy Norway. 1983-2002. Founder member/Ex-Chairman of Sai Org. (Oslo Center) and Coordinator for Norway 1986-1996. 22. Barry Pittard Australia. 1976-1999. Former English Lecturer, Sathya Sai College, Whitefield. 21. Shirley J. Pike USA. Ex-President, NC Region: Ex-President Cedar Rapids Center, Iowa. 20. Keith Ord Spain Follower from 1986-1991. 19. Terry Nelson USA Member 1979-2000. 18. Richard Nelson USA . Member 1979-2000 Ex-President Santa Barbara Center. 17. Alexandra Nagel The Netherlands. Follower briefly in 2000, Active in exposé investigations. 16. Glen Meloy USA. Member for 26 years. Member of 1st Advisory Board of the SSB Society for USA. Co-Manager, Sathya Sai Book Center of America in 1974-5. 15. David. J. Lyons USA Follower from 1981 to 2000. Ex-President of the Center of Greater New Orleans. 14. Helen Lewers Australia. Member 1980 - 2000. 13. Marit Larssen Norway. Bergen group Coordinator 1996-2000. 12. Soma Jeyendren Australia. Devotee 1989 -2001. Coordinator of celebrations, Pennanthills Center, NSW. 11. John Hartgering USA. Follower for 10 years. Ex-President/Service Coordinator of Centre. 10. Elena Hartgering USA. Follower for 20 years Ex-Vice-President of Centre and Regional Workshop presenter. 9. Dennis J. Hanisch USA. Follower for 27 years. Founder member and Vice-President, Seattle Center. 8. Lionel Fernandez Mexico. Follower since1967. Centre Chairman May-October 2000. 7. James Albert Danis Canada. Follower for 13 years 'Co-ordinator for Special Programs' - Christmas and Easter Programs at the Vancouver Sai Center and for The English Devotional Group. 6. Andries Krugers Dagneaux The Netherlands. Follower from 1992-2001. Ex-Coordinator of seva wing. 5. Timothy Conway USA Follower for 22 years President of the Sathya Sai Baba Center of San Francisco from 1982-4 4. Stephen Carthew Australia Follower for 15 years Ex-office-bearer in the South Australian Org 3. Dave. G. Brandt USA 1970-1999 USA. Official Contact for Nebraska, N. and S. Dakota. 2. Serguei Badaev Russia. 1995-2001 Ex-President of Sai Org. Moscow Centre and Deputy National Chairman for Russia. 1. Dinara Badaeva Russia. 1995-2001 Moscow Centre Educational Coordinator. http://www.petitiononline.com/saibaba/petition.html

Subject: Re: SaiBaba Petition From: Faithful student To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 07:23:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For Those Devotees Filled With Doubt. Please Read. April 8 2002 at 2:17 PM I have been a devotee of Sai Baba almost my entire life, and I have to say that when I first read of these allegations, they shook my faith to the core. However, after some soul searching I have come to terms with all of it in my own way. I post this message here for devotees who have doubts and are having trouble coming to terms themselves. I hope the words that I post here will give you some direction. Firstly to the devotees out there that insist that these allegations are false, misunderstood, or that we as humans can not interpret the actions of the divine, I respect your devotion, and it is indeed possible that you are correct in your assessment. I say possible because nothing in this world is absolutely for certain, and I refuse to discount the possibility that the arguments made by these staunch believers may be valid. That being said however, I want to address those devotees out there can not determine whether to believe these allegations or not, and are unsure of what actions to take. First of all when coping with ones doubts, it is always best to acknowledge the worst case scenario and work from there. So we must assume that these allegations are true. Yes, the people that make these claims might be misguided, but they may very well be telling the truth. To conquer doubt, we must assume that they are telling the truth. After I had done this, I thought to myself have I wasted my whole life following the teachings of a man could very well be a pedophile? Has all the spiritual searching that I have done been in vain? I felt betrayed, angry, and extremely emotional. Once these feelings passed however, I contemplated all that I had learned from this man. Basically, what it came down to was very simple. Am I better off for having come into contact with this man, Sai Baba? The answer to that question is an emphatic YES. His teachings are truly words to live by. Solely from reading his books and attempting to understand him, I have bettered my life in innumerable ways. I really feel that because of Sai Baba, I am a better person. Even if all these allegations are true, does that lessen the positive effect that this man has had upon me and upon so many others? No, not one bit. Regardless of the truth the positive effect that this man has had upon so many of his devotees is undeniable. So where does that leave us? I find that there are two paths of action that can be taken, but which path to take is a decision that I leave solely up to you. You can set your doubts aside and continue doing the good work that all Sai devotees do. From my personal experience, there truly are many really great human beings involved in the Sai organization and a lot of humane work is accomplished through them. OR if you find that these accusations are too much for you to handle, then I feel you should disassociate from the Sai organization all together. Remember that Sai Baba himself says that true divinity can only be found within oneself, perhaps it is time for you to put aside a physical guru and continue your spiritual quest within. However, whatever path you decide to take, I urge you to remember only the positive things that have come out of your association with Sai Baba. If you only carry with you the positive effects, then none of these accusations or rumors will have the power to hurt you. SAI RAM (The above post was copied here from a discussion site about Sai Baba. It follows the premie logic very well).

Subject: Defending the Master From: Gregg To: Faithful student Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 07:51:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, this petition does mirror the logic of premies who are forced to confront the less-than divine aspects of their master. Here are some of the differences: -The accusations against M are not as sleazy as those against S. OK, it's a matter of degree, but still... In any case, the similarities outweigh the differences insofar as both Avatars have been shown to be merely human, not a bad thing unless you've been trying to pass yourself off as Divine. - Years ago, premies used to use the 'Lila argument' to justify strangely ungodly behavior on the part of their Master. As the Guru-as-Lord paradigm has fallen into official disfavor. this argument remains a private, internal jjustification for continuing to follow Prem Pal. -One justification this Sai Baba devotee suggests concerns the 'many really great human beings involved in the Sai organization and the humane work is accomplished through them.' There is no corresponding 'humane work' in Prem Pal's organization. After buying all the luxury tech Prem Pal needs to feel good about himself, there is no money left over to fund, say, hospitals and schools, as Sai Baba's organization has done. (I'm not trying to defend this fraudulent magician/pedophile, BTW, just pointing out the extremely narcissistic/dysfunctional nature of Prem Pal's group as contrasted to religious organizations who feel the need to justify their faith with good works.) Anyway, on with the Guru Circus! May the best fraud win!

Subject: Re: SaiBaba Petition From: Sai Baba, 2002 To: Faithful student Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 07:34:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The speech of the true Master, from May 2002: (Text of the Divine Discourse delivered by Bhagawan Sri Sathya Sai Baba in Sai Ramesh Hall, Brindavan on 6th May 2002 on the occasion of Easwaramma Day) “All the names and forms are but the manifestations of the Supreme Being who is Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute and non-dual. He is the embodiment of Sathyam, Sivam, Sundaram (Truth, Goodness, Beauty).” Embodiments of Love! Yad Drishyam Thannashyam (all that we see with our physical eyes is bound to perish). It is not only man who is endowed with physical eyes but birds and animals also have them. Even worms and insects have eyes. But what is the use of eyes if we cannot see that which is eternal and changeless? These eyes perceive only ephemeral, impermanent and unreal things. In the world, we find people spending their whole life in mundane activities, perceiving only ephemeral things. Jnana (wisdom) is true and eternal. Only he who has the eye of wisdom deserves to be ist in this desolate village. There is no one who can treat even a simple cold, cough or fever. So many devotees are coming to You. Do not think that all of them are true devotees. Only those who feel the distress of others and try to help them are true devotees. Wealth, scholarship or authority is of little consequence. Sympathising with others in their suffering and trying to alleviate it is the true sign of devotion. One should share the sorrow of others. But this is scarce today. There are people who keep talking at great length about the achievements of their own children but they have little concern for the suffering of others' children. Thousands of devotees come here but it has occurred to none to do something to solve the problems that exist here. It is now left to You. So, You must construct a small hospital in this village for the poor children.' I comforted her and said, 'Why are you disturbed so much over such a small matter? It will be done. But for everything the time must be ripe. A new-born child cannot become a youth all at once; some time is required. Do not worry so much; in due course of time, Swami will fulfil your desire. Try to comfort those who are suffering and pray for their well-being.' Easwaramma was a little upset thinking that Swami was unconcerned and indifferent. But I had this Sankalpa all the time. Mother's wish had to be fulfilled, be it small or big. Any task to help others is My responsibility and so I resolved to undertake this task. Society Needs Selfless Doctors The very next day, I arranged for the foundation to be laid, and within a month a hospital started functioning. There was a doctor named Brahmam. He was a great devotee. He acted in a manner befitting his name. After him, there came another doctor called B. Sitharamiah. He was a great devotee of Swami. He prayed to Me to give the responsibility of the hospital to him. From that day till his last breath he worked in the hospital. You do not see any such doctors with dedication and commitment these days. From the moment they qualify, the sole concern of modern doctors is how much money they can earn. They are prepared to risk even their life for the sake of money. They neglect their prime duty which is healing the sick. They do not want to work in villages. They want to stay in cities and enjoy all the comforts of city life. They want to earn more and more money. What is money? What can it give us? It does not stay with anyone forever. It is transient and impermanent. Money is required but too much money is harmful. Today people are ready to go to any length to earn money. As the proverb goes, man today is ready even to eat grass to gain a rupee. So, a greedy man can earn only grass, not grace. Today we need men of sacrifice in the world. What I want is not your devotion. You must apply your mind to the problems of society and find remedies for them. One should aspire for social welfare. Society today needs the service of self-sacrificing doctors. Doctors these days have large incomes of thousands of rupees per month. But they do not want to do work worth even a rupee. They want to have money without work. Society today needs servants. Only those who truly serve can become true leaders. When a leader looks upon himself as a servant, he renders true service to society. Ideal Motherhood Exemplified by Mother Easwaramma Every gift of God provides man the opportunity to go from Preyas to Sreyas. People are engaged in all kinds of worldly activities. You grow crops, you harvest them, you eat food, you study and acquire various types of worldly knowledge, and so on. If all these mundane activities are performed with a spiritual outlook, then you can enjoy bliss. Performing action with a spiritual outlook is the essence of Atmadharma. If you enquire deeply, you would realise that everything happens not merely because of your personal efforts but by the Will of God. Right from the atom to the cosmos, everything in the universe is driven by God’s Will. Easwaramma breathed her last in this very Mandir. Summer classes were going on in the month of May 1972. She used to come and sit in these classes. Swami used to be amused at her presence and asked her what she followed in these classes. She used to say, 'I am not interested in these studies. I come here to see how the students of Swami conduct themselves, how they obey His commands and how they react to Swami's advice and teachings.' The parents take great pains in bringing up their children with expectation that they may lead a respectable life. Are the children behaving in accordance with the expectations of their parents? They wear new clothes provided to them by their parents, but do they spare any thought for the hardships their parents undergo to procure these clothes? Embodiments of Love! You are boys today; tomorrow you will be men. If your children cause you worry, how will you feel? Will you be happy? No, not at all. All that happens to you in future will be in accordance with your conduct today. Everything is reaction, reflection and resound. Today's good deeds will blossom into good results in the coming time. If you do bad deeds today, you cannot expect to be rewarded with good results in future. If you do evil today, you cannot escape its consequences later. You may become a powerful officer or an employer. But the results of your past bad deeds will always keep haunting you. Keeping these facts in mind, make your parents happy and serve them to your utmost capability. Only then will you find fulfilment in life. What for is man born in this world? Is it merely to roam around and indulge in the pleasures of the world? You should understand that worldly pleasures are not permanent. A true son will see to it that his parents do not shed tears of sorrow. It is not a matter of great celebration when a son is born in a family. Only when he earns a good name in society should his birth become an occasion for celebration. Many parents in their exuberance of joy at the birth of their son indulge in all sorts of senseless celebrations. Such parents spoil their own children. Mothers should keep a close watch on the conduct of their children. Is he going on the right path? Is he working for the welfare of society? Is society approving his conduct? Is he gaining the respect of society? Mothers should keenly observe all this. Easwaramma was very conscious of these matters; she was, in fact, an ideal mother. When visitors came to the house, she would send out her children to greet them properly, to enquire about their welfare and requirements and to offer them a seat in a respectful manner. You scarcely find such conduct anywhere today. Children are well educated, their talents are encouraged, but what for? To earn money? Even a beggar earns money. Money is not the goal of life. When you have a visitor to your house, you should greet him with respect and love. These days you cannot find any such courteous behaviour at all. That is why I often say: You cannot always oblige but you can speak always obligingly. But today's education is making the children veritable demons. There is no humility or friendliness in them. They learn the stuff given in books by rote, go to the examination centre, empty the stuff in their heads on the answer papers and return home with empty heads. Is this education? Not at all. True education is that which is imprinted on the heart of the learners. It should remain unchanged over the years. Such sacred feelings are not to be found in today's students. Everyone pretends to be a devotee without any trace of devotion. What is all this acting for? People learn such false values from cinema and TV, etc., which are ruining them, especially the children. The world today seems to be happy with TV and cinema. But Swami does not approve of them. Are cinema, TV, etc., helping in the redemption of mankind? Everyone should cultivate human qualities and lead the life of a true human being. But there are few such people to be found. There are, of course, a few parents who bring up their children with great love and affection and put them on the right path. Only such parents can be called ideal parents. Their children grow up to be ideal and noble. Ingratitude is the Worst Sin Today people have little sense of gratitude. Even if you get a little help from anyone, you should always remember it. It is unfortunate that people even harm those who help them. Such people are the worst sinners. We should help even those who have harmed us. This is the vow of Sai. No matter if some people criticise or ridicule Me or even try to harm Me, I will always look at them with kindness. I have declared: My life is My message. How many people follow the path shown by Me? If you follow in My footsteps, no harm will ever touch you. Swami is giving free education to lakhs of students. Education in Sai institutions is free up to Ph.D. level. What is the cost of education these days? Even for admission to primary class, many schools charge 20 to 30 thousand rupees. It is in this environment that Swami is giving free education to all His students. The students should remember this with gratitude. It is harmful for them if they do not recognise it. These were some of the truths that Easwaramma taught. When somebody came to see her, she would tell him, 'See how much help Swami is giving to the poor and needy. It is all for their welfare. But some people are not at all realising its value and are not grateful for it. It is not good for them. Everyone should bear this in mind.' She spoke in a gentle and sweet manner to all the visitors. She was a source of great solace to women who lost their husbands in young age. She helped them to relieve their suffering. Ever be grateful even for a small help. Do not be a Kritaghna (ungrateful). Ingratitude is utter cruelty. There is a Mantra in Suryanamaskara,'Kritagh-naghnaya Namah' (salutations to the sun who punishes the ungrateful). What is the significance of this? It emphasises the fact that any help received should be reciprocated to the extent possible. Hurting someone who has helped you will result in losing your eyesight. It is the radiance of the sun that is reflected in man's eyes. All that you see is through the reflection of the sun's radiance. The sun withdraws its radiance from the eyes of those persons who commit the sin of ingratitude. Some people may brush it aside, saying it is a mere Katha (story). Truly speaking, it is not a Katha but a Vyatha (suffering) that an ungrateful person has to undergo. Therefore, we should always be grateful. We should return help for help to the utmost extent possible. Do Charity with Discrimination You should always help the aged and distressed. At the time when this building was being constructed, the Rajmata of Jamnagar prayed to Me to stay in her house. I accepted her prayer and started staying in her house. There was a driver in that house. One day, it was very cold and the driver was shivering as he had no coat or rug to protect himself from cold. My driver came and told Me. I gave him a rug. As he got the rug given by Me, he started crying loudly, saying even his parents had not given him so much love. He lived for quite a long time and stayed with the Rajmata. The Rajmata was also a very considerate lady and used to look after the welfare of all her staff. There are many such needy persons in the world. Whoever it may be, do not make distinction between your people and others. When you see anyone in distress, help him immediately. Education that does not inculcate such values of caring and sharing is not fit to be called education. 'In spite of his education and intelligence, a foolish man will not know his true self and a mean-minded person will not give up his wicked qualities. Modern education leads only to argumentation, not to total wisdom. What is the use of acquiring worldly education if it cannot lead you to immortality? Acquire the knowledge that will make you immortal.' (Telugu Poem) What is the use of such an education? What is the outcome of endless arguments? One thinks oneself to be very learned but this arrogance is the source of one's utter downfall. Students! It is necessary for you to cultivate humility and obedience. There are a large number of people who are in much poorer circumstances than you. You must strive to ameliorate their condition as much as you can. When you help others, that itself is your reward. The scriptures declare: Paropakara Punyaya, Papaya Parapeedanam (you earn merit by helping others and commit sin by hurting them). Hence, always try to be helpful. Do not commit the sin of hurting others. Set an example before young children. This is an important duty of the students today. I have noticed that students today have a craze for going to foreign countries. When they return, they are dressed in a pompous manner and their behaviour is obnoxious. What is the use of wearing a costly dress if your behaviour is mean? There are many foreigners who come here and feel moved to help poor people. But this creates more complications. They are not aware of the conditions here. It is said that if there is somebody distributing money, even the dead will get up and stretch out their hands. So when these foreigners start giving money, poor people run after them. If somebody is hungry, give him food, not money. Similarly, if he is in need of clothes, give him clothes. Indiscriminate distribution of money does more harm than good. People of this country should not run after money. Lead a respectable life. Maintain the dignity of human life. Honour and respect cannot be bought with money. Here is a small matter Swami wants to tell. The other day, a devotee came and told that since My cars had become old, he wanted to replace them with new cars. He brought the cars. Three days passed. I did not even look at him. What is the reason? I already have a sufficient number of cars. I have no desire to move about in fancy big cars. I do not accept anything from anyone. When I was coming here, Srinivas came to Me and said, 'That person is feeling miserable. Please accept the cars.' I told him, 'Do not interfere. He can take back his cars. In fact, I am ready to give My own car. Rather, I will give you two cars; you and he can take one each.' Develop the spirit of sacrifice and set an example before others. I have been practising this since My childhood. If you follow the path shown by Me, you will become blessed. This path will lead you to liberation. It is liberation that is the goal of life. What is Moksha (liberation)? Moha Kshaya is Moksha (giving up of attachment is liberation). You must reduce your attachment (Moha). That is Moksha. Love everyone. But do not trust everyone without discrimination. One who puts his trust wholly in others is headed for ruin. Love all, Serve all. But put trust in yourself. Develop self-confidence. Give up worldly desires. Develop divine feelings and give up worldly feelings. This is the Dharma (righteous path) of humanity. Students! You have been studying in Sai institutions. You have studied well and passed examinations. Take to the right path. Develop good qualities. Love all, hate none. Love even those who bear hostility towards you. This is the characteristic of Sai. There are many who are hostile towards Me. Many ridicule or criticise Me. If they say it aloud, it is lost in air. If they do it internally, it returns to them. None of it will reach Me. Therefore, one should attach no importance to praise and abuse. See to it that love principle is installed firmly in you. This is what Mother Easwaramma practised and taught. Face the vicissitudes of life with confidence. I am never deterred by hardships or obstacles. When there is no defect in you, why should you have fear? Love even those who criticise you. This is the ideal that Swami expects when He says, 'My life is My message'. If you lead your life strictly according to My ideal, you will rise to the same level. Therefore, develop good qualities and help those who are in distress. Good People have a Good Death Mother Easwaramma used to go to the house of Gogineni from Brindavan. On the day of her passing away also, she walked all the way to their house and came back. After coming back, she had a cup of coffee. She used to have Paan (betel leaf). In fact, I Myself used to like Paan in the early days. She was pounding the areca nut in a mortar and was eating it bit by bit. Suddenly she shouted, 'Swami, Swami, Swami'. I called back, saying, 'I am coming, I am coming, I am coming.' She said, 'Come quickly, come quickly.' As I came down, she caught hold of My hands and said, 'You are capable of helping all the people of the world to any extent. But children need more help. You have to transform them. You need not make them scholars. Make them good and virtuous.' Saying this, she placed My hands on her eyes and breathed her last. She had Anayasa Maranam (peaceful death). What more can one desire in life than a glorious death? Bodies come and go. “Punarapi Jananam Punarapi Maranam, Punarapi Janani Jathare Sayanam ” (man is caught up in the cycle of birth and death; time and again, he undergoes the agony of staying in his mother's womb). Birth and death are natural to man. One need not worry over this matter. I called the driver. The body was placed in a van and sent to Prasanthi Nilayam. I sent Ramabrahmam with the body. He was a very good person. He performed all the work assigned to him personally. Ramabrahmam requested Me to go to Prasanthi Nilayam for the final rites. But I firmly told him, 'This is a matter relating to the external world and I have no connection with it. I have seen her and blessed her here. So, you may take her body for the final rites to Prasanthi Nilayam.' Ramabrahmam carried out My instructions faithfully. Gokak and Bhagavantam came and said that the classes were cancelled. I asked them, why. They said, it was because of the demise of Swami's mother. I said, 'What if she is dead? The boys are all alive and so the classes must go on.' Gokak was amazed. He announced that the classes would be held. Everyday I used to go to the classroom at the beginning of the class. The students were anxious whether Swami would come or not. I went to the classroom that day. As I entered, all the children started shedding tears. I asked, 'Why are you grieving? Whoever is born is bound to die one day or the other. So, there is nothing to grieve about.' After that, the classes went on as per schedule. It is because of this self-confidence and courage that I have been able to make everything happen according to My resolve. The father of this body also had an easy death. I had selected some people for interview at Prasanthi Nilayam when he came there. I asked him why he had come there. He replied, 'Swami, I have something to tell You.' I told him to wait until I finished the interview. For Me, all are equal. I finished the interview with the devotees and sent them away after giving them Prasadam. I then called him and asked the reason for his coming. He took out some money from the knot of his Dhoti and told Me, 'Swami, this is all the money I have. With this, You should perform my last rites on the 10th day in a proper manner.' I gently chided him, saying why he was talking about his death as if he knew all about it. He went back and bought four bags of rice for this purpose. Rice was very cheap those days. One could get a bagful for Rs. 20 or so. Besides rice, he bought some jaggery and other provisions. After reaching home, he played with his grandson for some time. Then he called his wife. Men never used to call their wives by their names those days. 'Hey, hey' was the way they used to address them. He told her, 'I have just now seen Swami. I have no worries now.' He then asked her to get him some water to drink. As she gave him water, he breathed his last. “ It is not through performing penance or going to places of pilgrimage or studying sacred texts that one is able to cross the ocean of worldly life. It is only through service to the good that you attain the ultimate goal of life. ” (Sanskrit Verse) Such a sacred end is possible only for people who have earned it in this way. Embodiments of Love! All of you who have gathered here have to take a pledge today. Live a good life. Be ready to help others. Love children, respect elders, respect all according to their status in society. If you live according to these principles, there is no better way of life. Imprint these principles firmly on your heart. Act in a manner so as to please your parents. Only then will your life find fulfilment. You are conducting Bhajans at various places and at different times. But mere singing of Bhajans is not enough. Behaviour and conduct are vital. Bhagawan concluded His Discourse with the Bhajan, Hari Bhajan Bina Sukha Santhi Nahin … - From Bhagavan’s EASWARAMMA DAY Discourse in Sai Ramesh Krishan Hall, Brindavan on 06th May 2002.

Subject: Re: SaiBaba Petition From: Doubter To: Sai Baba, 2002 Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 07:41:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do worms have eyes? My Master says: 'Even worms and insects have eyes. But what is the use of eyes if we cannot see that which is eternal and changeless? These eyes perceive only ephemeral, impermanent and unreal things...' My True Master seems to be an idiot.

Subject: Re: SaiBaba Petition From: Proof Positive To: Doubter Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 07:47:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Proof postive of the True Master's True Divinity. See these pictures, at: http://www.sathyasai.org/pictureinfo/picts5.htm You will be convinced!!!!!

Subject: Re: SaiBaba Petition From: Arti To: Proof Positive Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 07:50:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Start of arti arti www.sathyasai.org/images2001/xmas2001/arathi1-8.jpg

Subject: Re: SaiBaba Petition From: Sai Baba To: Arti Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 07:53:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why I have come. My work www.sathyasai.org/

Subject: Re: SaiBaba Petition From: The future Master To: Sai Baba Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 08:04:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And, finally, my friends, no need to worry, because the Lord will always be with us. Prema Sai www.sathyasai.org/intro/premasai.htm

Subject: oscars From: laffing girl To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 13:11:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: thanks joy for replying to my post i have searched for joe whalen posts and still can't find it i would have thought it would be on the parody /humour list but it's not i'm now like a dog with a bone and want to find it any more ideas? anyone?

Subject: Here it is From: JHB To: laffing girl Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 13:19:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Laffing girl, I thought I had replied to your post below, but I must have typed the message and forgotten to post it. Anyway, here is your missing post, although Joe refers to an earlier post from the previous year:- Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 21:02:40 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Academy Awards (Oscars) Message: Okay guys, it's Academy Award time again and so I am reprinting this from last year. I thought we should have our own awards and so feel free to vote for you favorites and please make your own nominations in these and other categories: Best Performance By Rawatt in a Leading Role: 1. The Lord of the Universe (1971-1982) 2. The Humanitarian Leader (1976) 3. Guru, Who Is Greater than God (1970-1985) 4. The Incarnation of God (1972-1980) 5. The Master (1985- ) 6. Meditation Teacher (1990 - ) Best Performance by an Cult-Actor in a Supporting Role: 1. Mahatma Guru Charanand (for pretending to be a holy man and by just making things up that made M sound divine) 2. Mahatma Fakiranand (for his role as Matthew Silver Hammer in 'Pat Halley Must Die' and in 'Mr. Fakir: The Escape') 3. David Smith (in 'I Am A Sadistic Robot for God') 4. Michael Dettmers (in 'That Was Then, This Is Now -- I was The Right Hand of God, or Maybe Just Head of A Swiss Foundation') 5. Arthur Brigham (for his role as 'Mahatma Pompousassanand' in 'The Initiation.') 6. Ira Woods (in'I Not Only LOOK Like a Maniac, I Act Like One.') 7. Jagdeo and Padarthanad (tie) (in 'The Art of Sexual Assault.') Best Performance by A Cult Actress In a Supporting Role: 1. Joan Apter (in 'My Mind is So Evil I Wish His Plane Would Blow Up') 2. Monica Lews (for her roles in in 'The Invisible Mistress' and 'Where's Marolyn') 3. Anne Johnston (in 'Cleaning The Divine Jockey Shorts' (documentary) 4. Linda Gross (in 'Lawyer for God, but I Don't Know Anything') 5. Dayalata Rawatt (in 'Songs for my (Godly) Father') Best Costume Design: 1. Maharaji's hat that looks like a Christmas tree 2. The Mala outfit with the pearls that do not hide the titties 3. The Krishna outfit (red) complete with crown 4. The silk Krishna outfit (white) complete with crown, flute and red velvet cape 5. The Philadelphia Fat Naked Dancing outfit Best Song: 1. Rock Me Maharaj Ji and Roll Me Tonight (with sexual overtones) 2. The Lord of the Universe 3. Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji, Who is the Artist of Creation? 4. Please, Please Please, Teach Me Devotion (and Beat Me too) 5. Dance, Dance, Dance (Rich Neel -- with a special award for putting more words on a single note than thought possible) 6. All Night Long (Dance Number by that short initiator from Michigan who now calls M a fraud) Art Direction: 1. The Swan Motiff at Millennium, including the faucets in M's bedroom 2. That ugly green logo for Hans Jayanti on JM's site 3. Maharaji.org's website, including the swirls 4. Enjoyinglife.org website (Am I Blue?) 5. The throne at Millenium that looked like an ad for the Association of Natural Gas producers Best Picture: 1. Some of the younger, really fat pictures, with special award to SHIP for air-brusing M's zits from his face 2. The 8x10 of Maharaji's feet on a silk pillow 3. The 'greased back' hair look of the early 70s 4. The long hair look of the late 70s 5. Satguru, Your Face Is Like The Sun picture Lifetime Acheivement Award: 1. Bal Baghwan Ji as Sat Pal, I am god too! 2. Mata Ji, in 'My Son Is A Wicked Playboy' 3. Marolyn in 'What Did I Ever See In this Guy?' By the way, since I was the only person in the world who hadn't already seen it, I went to see 'The Sixth Sense' Sunday night (they brought it back for some reason) and I thought it was a great film. Did anyone else think that Bruce Willis looked exactly like Al Gore in that film? John.

Subject: excellent John ! [nt] From: bill To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 23:24:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Here it is From: laffing girl To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 12:12:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: thanks for finding this for me i know she will laugh a lot also thanks for putting it on the best of forum list so others can enjoy it too what was the original post from the previous year? if possible can you tell me where that is also if you can think of any other really funny posts of a similar nature i'm always up for a laugh maybe i'll post someday i like to dip in now and then to see what's going on and am so glad you lot are out there serves him right for messing with us all i recognise many names - those that use thier own names that is i especially like to see how many of the famous holier than thou 'big names' have seen through the crap and got the rest of their lives back although of course i also know that many haven't made it thanks again with love laffing girl - actually i'm no girl i'm 50 plus

Subject: Laffing girl - 50+ - aren't we all! [nt] From: Livia To: laffing girl Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 14:44:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hi laffing girl -- hey eDrek From: Marianne To: laffing girl Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 18:51:11 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Have you been to the House of drek? There's a link on EPO. When I first found EPO, I couldn't pull myself away from the drek site it was so funny. Have you seen the dancing boob picture? Hey eDrek, could you put it up here for laffing girl to see? You could also do a search for Ted Farkel's posts. I don't quite know how to describe him, but his posts are always entertaining. Have fun surfing the sites, and welcome. Marianne

Subject: Re: Hi laffing girl -- hey eDrek From: laffing girl To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 19:34:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: thank you all so much i will but it's late now and I is a old girl innit?

Subject: Best of Forum ever updated From: Jean-Michel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 03:15:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Best of Forum Posts Ever Thanks ...

Subject: Funniest post ever From: Joy To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 00:23:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks John for finding it. This has got to be the funniest post ever produced on the Forum, I was laughing so hard I had to stop eating my breakfast and run for the Kleenex! Joe, you are wicked!

Subject: Her website is still ACTIVE... From: Erika's Secret? To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 11:15:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Supposedly, the www.pleaseconsiderthis.com website was taken off-line, after many of the essays there were copied and reprinted on forum 7 and scrutinized. But it would seem there is still more to consider, for those who have a password. There is a link at the bottom of the main page, inviting people to contact them. I would guess that anyone contacting them, who was judged to be a sincere premie, could be given a password to read the site, without allowing it's contents to be scrutinized by non-believers. But that's only a guess. Does anyone else know more? Please Consider This... if you have a password www.pleaseconsiderthis.com/webstats/weekly/2002/05/19/referrersbydocument.html

Subject: What are you talking about? From: JHB To: Erika's Secret? Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 12:32:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The link you posted is to the site stats which is a standard feature for most websites, and is usually password protected (cf. EPO or this forum). What evidence do you have that the site is anything more than the one page we can see? John.

Subject: Maybe this poster is right From: JHB To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 14:37:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It does appear from confidential information received that there is evidence of life at Erika's site. Let's all hold our breath! Well, it's so precious, we should keep a tight hold of it, shouldn't we? John.

Subject: When two or more are gathered in my name From: Inside Edition To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 20:36:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It also appears, over at Enjoying Life (Around the Planet), that the lord of the universe has accepted the invitation of two people in London to do a gig there. Can anyone confirm that there are only two premies left in London? Oh, how the mighty have fallen - and NO QUESTIONS ALLOWED! I cannot believe I believed all this bullshit for so many years - thank you, exes everywhere, for setting me free!

Subject: Re: Maybe this poster is right From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 15:46:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I noticed the passworded site quite a while ago but didn't think anything of it. It's par for the course. Must have secrecy, don't ya know:) I'm sure Erika (I was going to say Andrea) et al didn't like the excellent analyses that Joe and Jim did while they were on line.:) All the best, Cynthia

Subject: Mitch Ditkoff: The Great Game From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 12:29:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This ''interview'' is from Joel Metzger's Online Noetic Network. Living with a taste of the inner realm gives me a deep inner foundation. I am publishing The Journal because I find it such a dramatic shift in perspective. Many other people feel the same way. Here I speak to Mitch Ditkoff. Mitch works as a management consultant and writer in Woodstock, NY, USA. ** ONN Joel: The Journal's purpose is to give an introduction to the source inside. For me, having an inner reference point makes a huge difference and changes all my priorities. On the outside, we are used to so much, everywhere, all of the time. Inside, one simple point of beauty. A big difference! I don't have specific questions, Mitch, but I'd like to hear what this is for you. Or, as I put it to in another interview: What do you find inside? ** Mitch: Well, I must say that anything I tell you is constrained by words. The experience of what is inside is not about words. The challenge is to elicit the feeling and communicate the essence, without getting trapped in definitions that trigger analysis. The inner experience is free from analysis and free from division, free of interpretations, and free of all of the machinations of the mind. Most of us are living in a very linear and logical mental state, doing the commerce of the world and tending to all that makes the world go round. There is another dimension which is free of all the habits of mind. If you were a child I might describe it as Free Parking in Monopoly or the feeling of a snow day to an elementary school student. This is when suddenly everything becomes expanded and larger than average, simple, sweet, delightful. That experience is referred to in every single religion since the beginning of time. Every path, regardless of its name or teacher, is about turning within to the core of being. This does not mean renouncing or rejecting the world. That behavior is another play of the mind. It is embracing life fully and being stable in a changeless place, free of the ups and downs where we live most of our lives. The qualities, in my experience, of this inner place are all divine. They are all full of love and gratitude and appreciation and caring and joy. One doesn't have to go to a book to learn this. One needs only to turn within. The teacher reminds and inspires the student to continually return to that place within. ** ONN Joel: How would you describe the feeling of embracing your life? ** Mitch: It feels like when my kids stand on the top stair and call 'Daddy!' and they jump and fully expect me to catch them. They are ruled by a faith that is born of experience. That quality of trust enables us to embrace whatever is before us with heart, not just resignation. It feels great! I don't know how to put any words on it. It feels right. ** ONN Joel: Has your ability to embrace increased? ** Mitch: Absolutely. And continues to. I don't think there is an end to it. It increases and then I have my personal drama of forgetting and the dance of waking again and re-experiencing. It is very humbling. ** ONN Joel: What do you aspire towards, Mitch? I don't want the textbook answer, but really what are you going for at this point in your life? ** Mitch: Actually, for me it's about letting go of going towards anything. I fully believe that which I think I have to go towards is already here. What is happening for me is giving up the notion of having to go towards anything. I don't mean laziness or lack of consciousness, but realizing that it is already here. Where I am is it. ** ONN Joel: How does going inside help with that? How has going inside helped you to realize that it's already here? ** Mitch: Metaphorically speaking, it's like opening your eyes. There is the world and if you open your eyes you can see the world and appreciate it more. In the same way, the effort to 'go inside' is like opening your eyes to a world. It is God's world. Inside we find our true selves, our primal state that is free from opinion and debate. It takes some effort to realize what we already have. We must realize that we already have it and there is nowhere to go. At some point we need to stop, pause, and realize that what we want comes from within. It fills one with a great sense of peace and contentment to know that. The struggle is over at that point. The inside war is over once that connection is made. It's easy to give the rhetoric and sound spiritual and philosophical. But it is another thing to actually have that experience. The effort is to pause. ** ONN Joel: I know that some people get scared when the hear the words 'the war is over.' They say, 'But I love the challenges of life!' ** Mitch: Yes, it is a great game. We all like to play games. But if there is a war, it implies something you don't have and want. You go through all the drama of putting on the clothes and getting out the guns and mapping out plans. It all assumes that there is something undone that requires this monster effort. To me, when I sit quietly and contact that place inside of me, the struggle is over. That which drives me gets cleansed and purified. Yes, as long as we are alive we are involved in the world of action. There are things to do here. Yet, what is it that moves us to do them? We can come from a place of wholeness and gladness or from a place of absence and separation. I prefer to come from wholeness. ** ONN Joel: I am amazed how much is missed that is right here, part of life. We are normally looking outside of ourselves -- school, TV, our day-to-day life. Only half the story gets told. ** Mitch: We spend most of our time living in the past or future. Plans can be intoxicating - growing your business, going on vacation, meeting your soul mate, or reminiscing about the past. How many people live in the present? Not that many. Going inside increases my capacity to live in the present. The extra pounds, the flab of future and past, slides off when a person connects with the inside place. The masks of the future and past are no longer operational and you can really be here, which is really the only place to be. We can know success from that inside place. We can be intelligent, awake, energized, grateful human beings, going about our business, playing our roles in this life with greatly increased sense of joy and gratitude. Online Noetic Network www.wisdomtalk.org/

Subject: Re: Mitch Ditkoff: The Great Game From: Bolly To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 04:04:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, That sounds amazing, have you tried it?

Subject: One trick pony From: Bryn To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 14:51:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This man knows one fact: that there is an 'inside' and an 'outside'. That's it. He knows nothing else! All other dynamics are obviously a complete mystery to him. What on earth makes him think he has anything to speak about beyond his one sentence understanding? I think he needs a teacher who is prepared to lead him into a bit of detail! Citing the limitations of human language is such a tired old stunt, and total bolllocks too. Sheesh! Love Bryn

Subject: The completely lost speak. [nt] From: bill To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 14:07:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: joel Metzger From: Susan To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 09:34:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That name is really familiar. Was he is a really bad car accident in the early eighties in Miami? Or am I mixing that up with another name? If it is the same man I am glad he is doing well enough to have the website, even if it appears to be a PWK website I hope he made such a good recovery. I recall him as a nice person.

Subject: Re: joel Metzger From: bill To: Susan Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 14:10:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joel worked on the 707 and his wife did also. In November 97 she was picked up by m as she was walking somewhere. He took her home. He recommended not hitching rides but this time it was ok. She was happy. Joel was injured somehow I fergit, but she left him at some point. I agree, I wish him well.

Subject: Re: joel Metzger From: Richard To: bill Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 16:50:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joel tells the story of his terrible accident on his web site. I remember it well as it happened when I lived in Miami. I also wish Joel well and I'm glad he made it through that difficult situation. As I've requested at other times, please do not harass Joel or Mitch. They have their beliefs and we each have ours. It's MPR & K that need scrutiny. Each of us must make our own choices based on what we know, not based on how much we are badgered. With information posted here and on EPO, many people have chosen for themselves what is best. Richard

Subject: Address Love Letters to: Mitch Ditkoff (info) From: anon To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 22:38:43 (PDT) Email Address: Hermes@Hermes.deus360 Message: Mitch Ditkoff: Sorry, we don't allow people to posts others' personal information and you've just earned yourself a block. Bye, bye. Gerry

Subject: Thanks Gerry From: Richard To: anon Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 08:14:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for proving this forum does not sink to CACtics. I was going to reply to that person's post by asking people to please NOT spam Mitch or anyone else. We were all there once and harassment is disgusting no matter who the harassee is. These CAC fights, Cat fights and ExEx (Dos Equis) fights have become tiresome. I prefer to not engage in those and just let them fizzle out as they will of their own accord. There are bigger fish to fry here. Richard

Subject: Haul out the barf bags From: Vicki To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 15:18:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Really, they ought to be complimentary like a bag of peanuts.

Subject: Descriptions of the 'inner experience' From: Will To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 14:52:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reading these descriptions of 'the inner experience' has made me wonder how I might describe it and what other exes might say. First, I do find Metzger's presentation of his journal to be slightly disingenuous since he is restricting the contents to the premie perspective. This restriction makes the website more about the uniquely pro-Rawat stance rather than really about what is called the noetic experience. Most people who have heard about the noetic experience would say that it is something that can be explored by any person and should be independent of any particular 'path.' I assume Metzger would agree with that assessment, maybe not. Ditkoff even mentions the universality of the experience. Yet, only Rawat students are interviewed so why be coy about that? Call a spade and spade. What these premies are saying about the noetic experience mirrors the sort of descriptions you get from all the other spiritual sources out there, not really different in any way, except when they invariably mention something that sounds quite odd - when they insist that there is a need for constant remindering from the Master to visit this wonderful place inside. I'm sure this sounds quite peculiar to the average person. And this website does seem to be directed to the public at large as a propagation effort, since what is expressed about the Master is obviously narrowed down to what would be palatable to people. Contrast the 'palatability factor' of this website with some of the premie expressions on ELK, which tell it like it really is. This month an aspirant tells how she is sincerely waiting for the experience of Knowledge and she knows everything will work out wonderfully thanks to Maharaji. In the meantime, she is going to be grateful for each breath until that day that she is given the experience by Maharaji. This aspirant has obviously gotten the real message, and learned it well. So the ONN Journal is annoying in its false marketing technique. But, putting this old argument aside, what would I say, I wonder, if Metzger interviewed me about the inner experience? First, I would not call it 'THE inner experience,' as Mitch did, and as so many do. Is there only one experience called THE inner experience? Not in my experience. There are all kinds of inner experiences and they are not divided into mind vs beyond-mind. To me, mind and spirit and consciousness are not distinqishable, so I don't make a distinction. Even my most 'deepest' meditation experiences have been mental states. Whenever somebody tries to distinquish a state of being vs a state of mind, I doubt the validity of what they are saying. And whenever somebody talks about the very 'CORE of being,' I get suspicious! However, I have experienced states of mind that are unordinary and beyond the usual, quite beyond the usual. I know what states of mind that LSD can produce, for example, including the complete absence of ego and a much larger than usual perspective. In meditation I have experienced a state of silent wakefulness that is quite a positive state in that it feels both enjoyable and beneficial, producing a feeling of well-being and inspiration and a feeling of being connected to both higher wisdom and artistic inspiration. I've also experienced a joy that seemed unbounded by the usual boundaries of my individual identity. I value these experiences and have no trouble in remembering their value. I have had them before, during, and after my involvement with what is now called the Prem Rawat Foundation. I sit quietly in meditation as often as I want to. I always have experienced my inner experiences as inherent to my own nature and not dependent in any way on any outside influence, certainly including the influence of Prem Rawat. I agree that there are semantic difficulties. Even my own distinction about the use of the word THE indicating a singularity is really just a semantic distinction. Actually, I can relate to most all of what premies say on this new website, except I think they all tend to go way overboard in their praise of it. It's really just a natural thing that people have experienced for eons.

Subject: very well said, Will From: Nigel To: Will Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 07:19:18 (PDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: First, I would not call it 'THE inner experience,' as Mitch did, and as so many do. Is there only one experience called THE inner experience? Not in my experience. There are all kinds of inner experiences and they are not divided into mind vs beyond-mind. To me, mind and spirit and consciousness are not distinqishable, so I don't make a distinction. Even my most 'deepest' meditation experiences have been mental states. Whenever somebody tries to distinquish a state of being vs a state of mind, I doubt the validity of what they are saying. And whenever somebody talks about the very 'CORE of being,' I get suspicious! Agreed with every word - though I would go further and argue that since 'mind' and 'spirit' are indistinguishable, the latter term is thus meaningless and redundant. As for 'consciousness'..? Hmm, I think that doesn't mean quite the same thing as 'mind' (since there are an enormous number of unconscious mental process going on at any one time), but I'd agree that consciousness is a product of mind, pure and simple - and that mind, in turn, is a product of body. And for want of evidence to the contrary, all euphoric sensations, howsoever labelled, can be directly associated with endorphin states of the brain. And I am always irritated that a special case is made for meditation experiences of the 'going within' variety. Either we are already 'within', or there is no such thing as 'within'. And to say an experience is 'beyond words' is equally daft, since either all experiences are beyond words (eg. the experiences of sex, cigars or cornflakes) or none of them are, and we just recognise that words are convenient labels to help each other understand what we are talking about. Interesting that Mitch Dummkopf was so coy about mentioning his Master, eh? Nige (who is currently enjoying inner experiences of coffee, nicotine and seratonin).

Subject: Inner Secrets From: Gregg To: Will Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 20:08:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, you're spot on, Will. This sort of talk about inner peace is pretty generic...and pretty good, in its own way. Smart people like Mitch can make pretty good sense sometimes. Unfortunately, Mitch knows he is not telling the truth, because people would feel pretty uncomfortable if he really told the truth about how he felt about his Master. Cultists for years have justified this sort of dissembling in the name of a higher truth. If you feel that by giving someone half a doughnut, they will beg you for the other half, than this approach makes sense. And, while witholding the better half of the doughnut (the half with the delicious devotion icing!), you also get the added benefit of feeling the frisson of holding a special secret. Propagation. Heh heh. Good luck.

Subject: Why the embarassment? From: Roger eDrek To: Gregg Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 21:16:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: very good, Gregg. Bottom line is that Guru Maharaj Ji, Maharaji, or Prem is a big embarassment to the cause. Yet, HE is the cause. It's all because HE wants your money and your devotion. Pretty sick and twisted that they can't even be the least bit honest. I'm so goddamn grateful that I don't have to live that lie anymore. The sick lie where I think I'm better than everyone because I have the big, big secret - GOD! And God is Maharaji!

Subject: Roger From: dgeri To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 10:12:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: M, I mean P, loves you

Subject: Why Prem no longer claims to reveal god From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 13:33:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to Dr Strangelove aka Roupell on LG: Look jerry, just for a brief second imagine that you still love respect and admire M, ok? Would you really seriously want him to go around the world in 2002 when things are darker than ever, proclaiming that he can reveal the One true God?? Don't be so damned stupid. You know it's far too dangerous out there for anyone to be doing something like that. I get the picture that you were one of those people in Galilee making sure Jesus made all his claims known to all and sundry. With the inevitable result. I'm very glad M doesn't listen to that sort of 'advice'. You doubt he does either? What is abundantly transparent is that you are in trying your damndest to sow the seeds of doubt in people's minds. As for your insane 'argument'.... Don't be so damned stupid. You know it's far too dangerous out there for anyone to be doing something like claiming to reveal God in this day and age. No doubt you were one of those people in Galilee making sure Jesus made all his claims known to all and sundry (just so it was 'real' for you). You saw what happened to him. I'm very glad M doesn't listen to that sort of 'advice'. Sowing doubt though....That is a crime worse than any of your spurious 'arguments' .

Subject: Re: Why Prem no longer claims to reveal god From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 00:39:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well Pat, I guess sowing the seeds of doubt is a big sin for Roupell. His new excuse for the revisionism is hilarious. The world's too dangerous. No doubt you were one of those people in Galilee making sure Jesus made all his claims known to all and sundry (just so it was 'real' for you). He even believes Jerry was one of Christ's apostles who has reincarnated into a doubting Thomas sowing seeds into the hearts of all those lovely premies on LG. That is one funny post. Yup, he isn't advertising as God anymore because it's too dangerous! HaHaHaHaHa Could it really be that he never was God, never will be, and is too busy doing nothing but traveling around in his jet collecting cash for his coffers? The ''I am not really God'' guru (wink wink) can sail around in his $7 million yacht without fear of being sunk. LOLOL...btw, I watched Investigative Reports yesterday on A&E. It was about Greenwich, Connecticut, where the Skakels lived and Martha Moxley was murdered. They were scanning the coastline there showing some of the yachts there, where some of the wealthiest people in the country live and there was not one yacht as big as Prem Pay Pal Rawat's. There were some beauties, but no 107 foot ones. Honestly, what the hell does Rawat need a boat that big for? To take all his friends out past the three mile limit? Does Rawat really have any friends? I bet he isn't capable of having any friends. I wonder if Roupell ever has been on that yacht. To dangerous to be God...I'm still laughing...

Subject: Re: Why Prem no longer claims to reveal god From: Inside Edition To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 16:58:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'You know it's far too dangerous out there for anyone to be doing something like claiming to reveal God in this day and age.' Oh, right you are! That's why we have to keep it a SECRET!!

Subject: Whoa! Prem is GOD? From: Roger eDrek To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 21:06:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Am I gonna be fucked or what? Nobody ever told me the guy was God. If I had known that I would have never left. Who is so stupid to leave and turn against God? Man, I wish I had known.

Subject: We don't say that in PUBLIC anymore... From: Andrea E. To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 11:13:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You see, our good friend, David Roupell, is SO right. If Prem went around the world telling people that He is God, or that He could show them God, that would be very dangerous indeed! Think about it; people would start to ask QUESTIONS. Every thoroughly modern PWK knows how dangerous those are in The World Of Knowledge. Nothing but food for the Doubtmaker. I mean, DUH! You ex-students can be so thick sometimes. Why do you think we refer to Him as You-Know-Who, giving You-Know-What? It's MUCH safer, that's why. We don't want The Master to get nailed to a cross this time, now do we? Or even nailed by the IRS or the media. Don't you see, there are some things that Prem just CAN'T say in public! It IS a dangerous world out there. A world that asks questions is about as dangerous as it gets! Thoroughly modern PWK's like David and myself know this instinctively. Why do you think aspirants aren't allowed to recieve Knowledge, untill they no longer have any questions? Sheesh! But don't worry Roger, it's NEVER too late to come back to The Master, the door is always open (unless you are Jim Heller or Joe Whalen. I think the door is definitely closed to them.) Andrea E. :), Who posts here occasionally, despite the fact she lives in TERROR of the question-mongering ways of the ex-premie CULT. :o

Subject: Re: Whoa! Prem is GOD? From: Bolly To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 04:17:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now I'm really confused. Was recieving k a path to ultimate truth? Is M god or the revealer of god? What the hell is K and M anyway? If he is god, should such an entity exist we couldn't leave it anyway, as it is all embracing. We also are unlikely to need some self serving spiv to show us the way (back to the father) And what sort of meaningless bilge is 'truth is the conciousness of bliss' anyway. Did everyone get an invite to Brighton? Or is it just me?

Subject: Re: Whoa! Prem is GOD? From: Thorin To: Bolly Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 04:47:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bolly you asked: And what sort of meaningless bilge is 'truth is the conciousness of bliss' anyway. You don't gettit?! Well lets put it this way. Bliss is the conciousness of truth. Err maybe I got that wrong? Lets try conciousness is the truth of bliss. Nope thats not right! Maybe bliss is the truth of conciousness. Awww shucks now you gone and done it - my mind is sllllippiiiiiing away. Phew what a relief! Bliss, bliss bliss. Jai Sat Chit Anand to you sister Bolly. Another difficult question you pose: Did everyone get an invite to Brighton? Or is it just me? Nope it is just you - you for the massa. Noone else counts, it is your own experience, noone else. Be humble at the feet of the massa, it is your own personal invitation, your own salvation. All you have to do is logon, pay £35 or more if you want to, journey yourself to Brighton (home for the destitutes and UB40's) and bathe in that spivvy sublime experience. And don't forget to arrive real real early - God will be imposing very strict security measures - we don't want any non or former seekers intruding on that sat chit anand. Warmly, Thorin R U going Bol?

Subject: Irony of it. Oh the irony! From: Peter Howie To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 18:07:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The irony of there being a group of premies that post over at LG and other places that see the forum as a cult and discuss us in much the same way that we discuss them. With forum heroes and villains. It is really too much. What does it mean systemically. I mean we are their demons. MJ and some of their actions are our demons. Being in a group and having demons - this is all old stuff really. Cheers Peter Howie Brisland

Subject: Re: Irony of it. Oh the irony! From: sivan To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 02:45:05 (PDT) Email Address: sivan28@yahoo.com Message: The irony of there being a group of premies that post over at LG and other places that see the forum as a cult and discuss us in much the same way that we discuss them. With forum heroes and villains. It is really too much. What does it mean systemically. I mean we are their demons. MJ and some of their actions are our demons. Being in a group and having demons - this is all old stuff really. Cheers Peter Howie Brisland --- Hi again Peter, So many thanks to this site and those involved, but when I felt that, I thought...great, I can finally move on...

Subject: Re: Irony of it. Oh the irony! From: Cynthia To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 21:38:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Peter, I is ironical, but I see it more as backlash. The idea of ex-premies and EPO being a cult didn't occur until the ex-ex-premie split happened. It was an opportunity for participation they probably never expected. Yet it happened. Backlash is good. I've thought about this a lot. Without backlash one can't see the transparency of the cult. They have to make a mirror image of themselves in order to survive their delusions. It's something to be expected when up against a cult, it's leader and the people who follow the leader. Best to you, Cynthia

Subject: Demons? From: Gregg To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 19:56:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji always warned us about the mind. Is thinking the mind? Is doubting (never leave room for it!) the mind? Are we exes doomed to live in the hell of the mind? Is our happiness just an illusion? Is there a hell? Does Mahrajism provide an answer to thes questions? Will the premies admit that the answer is yes? And can ex-premies continue on their spiritual path? The answer, is, of course, no. We are hell-bound, as are non-Christians to those who believe in the Christian church. Believers...get a life. There is life outside of your belief.

Subject: Cult-Spotter's Guide #2 - Trance Logic From: Nigel To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 18:02:18 (PDT) Email Address: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: 'Trance Logic' describes a strange mental state demonstrated by 'hypnotic' subjects. It has been defined as: 'a way of thinking during hypnosis that allows a person to entertain as real phenomena, notions and images that are inherently contradictory, such as seeing two people in place of one.' When studying the phenomenon, it matters not whether a researcher is a believer in hypnosis and 'trance states', or a dirty old skeptic (like me), since both schools would agree that it is easily provable that the subject is not actually perceiving what they claim to perceive. (eg. when a subject reports: 'yes, I can see right through you', they will invariably fail to identify what is hidden behind the tester's back.) So whatever is happening must involve the subject either lying about their subjective experiences, or else persuading themselves that black really is white... Trance logic is further demonstrated by the subject's apparent ability, on appropriate suggestion, to hold simultaneously two incompatible points of view, or else to adopt an untenable viewpoint in the face of overwhelming contradictory evidence. The parallel between counterfactual reasoning and a swathe of cult behaviours seems unavoidable. In each case, I think you could safely say the cult member 'entertains notions that are inherently contradictory'. In each case they are about as irresolvably paradoxical as Dr Doolittle's push-me-pull-you trying to win the Derby in both directions at once: Take, for example, (1), The Humility-Autocracy Paradox… The cult leader is celebrated for his shining humility - yet each cult is fuelled by anything from obligatory deference (low-grade gas for 950 cc. cult-engine) to unquestioning obedience (Moonie-grade, high performance machines). The Master neither seeks nor welcomes advice or second opinion. Just serve your humble servant of humanity and shut up… ('I didn't wish or ask for all this power, but now I have got it you will damned well do as I ask...') Similarly, there is the (2) Avarice-Detachment Phenonemon: The Master invariably elevates himself above the petty concerns of the world, far beyond desires for, and attachment to material possessions. The Master is also significantly wealthier than his followers - a wealth directly or indirectly provided by those same followers. ('I never asked for, nor wished for any of these luxury goods, but since you are writing a shopping list, anyway - and in the interests of your own spiritual growth, of course – remember that I prefer the best of everything that money can buy') (3) The Effort-Grace Paradox. Relax and bask in the Master's infinite Grace. He will transport you to his Kingdom of Love as surely as any slow boat to China. If the journey feels bad in any way, or simply fails to get you there, then you have failed to make the right effort to get yourself there. [Moley’s addendum: ‘In the case of Captain Rawat – ‘you can’t steer your own boat; you can only adjust the sails. (Editor’s comment: ‘surely shome mishtake, cos what about that bit about ‘sailing in the wrong direction… who is sailing?… I thought it was the wind… Help – ish there as shkipper in the house. Did someone say ‘kipper’? Yesh please.. get orf my rudder you pervert. Did someone shay ‘rubber’? Yesh please… Oopsh, man overboard … wash it hish fault… did he forget to adjusht his sails?… oh welll never mind perhaps…’ cont. p 342) ] (5) The Do-as-I-Don't Effect. Waco wacko David Koresh's nastiest addiction was the serial seduction (by implicit compulsion) of his male (celibate) devotees' wives and teenage daughters. No contraception involved. Sai Baba, Maharaji, Da Free John and god-bods too numerous to mention have also, reportedly, used their perceived all-powerful status to exploit their followers sexually. Similarly, in regard to drug-taking, diet and lifestyle, all strictures, obligations and spiritual observances imposed on devotees will not apply to the cult leader. (6) Xeno's Paradox Maths students learning calculus often encounter 'Xeno's paradox'. A scenario is presented where a tortoise and a hare are having a race. The tortoise is given a head start, commencing the race from a position halfway along the race-track (call this position 'b', and the hare's starting position 'a'). Xeno's paradox states that the hare can never catch up with the tortoise, because by the time the hare has reached position 'b', the tortoise will have moved on to position 'c', and by the time the hare reaches 'c', the tortoise will have gone further to position 'd' etc..ad infinitum. By a similar flawed logic in the devotee's mind, not even the most conscientious or dedicated of their number could ever catch up with, or overtake the Master (in spite of the above stated 'Do-as-I-don't effect'...) (7) Trusting-the-False-Infallible Loonie Ronald Hubbard spent his latter years aboard his luxury yacht crewed by hearty sailor-scientologists, cruising the shores of southern Europe and North Africa in search of long-lost buried treasure; treasure Hubbard assured his gallant pirates was really there - but of which not one golden ducat was retrieved. (When he got there, the cupboard was bare..?) Similarly, the teenage Guru Maharaji promised to banish all wars and establish peace in this world in his lifetime. (In fairness, this latter guru might have a few miraculous decades left in which to fulfill that promise, notwithstanding that progress to-date appears slow-to-non-existent) But in all such cases, perhaps what is more telling is less the fact that the guru is fallible, after all, but that no mistake is ever admitted, and evidence for the original claim quickly becomes as well hidden as Hubbard’s ancient treasure trove. Meanwhile the devoted minions continue to trust in the Master’s omniscience… ( 8 ) The Commit-Before-Testing Effect All cults see themselves as being above ritual, dogma, or hand-me-down beliefs, instead talking of ‘personal experiences’. Even – some would say - the most hand-me-down cult of the lot, Christianity, deals in such jargon. Evangelicals urge us to have ‘an experience of Jesus coming into our hearts’, whilst in purple-frocked High Anglican / RC communion we may taste the extraordinary sensation of wine transubstantiated into (literal) blood, even as biscuit is verily made flesh. In each case, faith is a requisite first step toward achieving the experience. But without the experience, there is nothing to place faith in. Go figure… (9)The Up-The-'Down'- Escalator effect. Every career cultist sees themselves as ascending a path or staircase, ever upward and onward into the sublime. As long as they keep their eyes fixed straight ahead they will see Jacob's Ladder and feel their feet continuing to ascend reassuringly. But if they glance to one side, they might start to wonder why their surroundings have not changed overmuch – why, in fact, their transcendent experiences are no more transcendent than they were back on the bottom rung. An outsider looking on sees only a damn fool with tunnel vision trying to walk up the 'down' elevator. Ok, I think that should be enough examples for now. The only release from trance logic comes, of course, from a kindly, quiet voice urging them to 'WAKE UP..!'

Subject: Thanks, Nige - another keeper for me [nt] From: PatC To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 12:31:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Cult-Spotter's Guide #2 - Trance Logic From: Richard To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 07:30:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Finally took the time to read this and it was enlightening (pardon the overused expression). You had me at: Trance logic is further demonstrated by the subject's apparent ability, on appropriate suggestion, to hold simultaneously two incompatible points of view, or else to adopt an untenable viewpoint in the face of overwhelming contradictory evidence. Says it all and brings back specific memories of waking from a trance in the middle of Rantsang, as in "What's wrong with this picture? He's saying the right words so why does it just not seem right?" Thanks for taking the time to explore this idea, Nigel. Very well done. In fact, it's a trance-in-mental meditation! ;) Richard

Subject: Re: Cult-Spotter's Guide #2 - Trance Logic From: Bolly Shri To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 03:02:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That is so eloquently put, thank you. Since posting on this site I have given up the habit of sticking my tongue down my throat when nedding to concentrate on something and guesss what? It makes no difference whatsoever to how effectively I perform in any situation, except I suspect some things are done a little better as I am concentrating on the task not some concept of enabling a better outcome. Yours eyc Bolly

Subject: Real good, Nige... [nt] From: Cynthia To: Nigel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 21:45:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Fakiranand From: The Falcon To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:32:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: not sure why my previous posts have disappeared (been censored???) but would like to ask what people think about Satpal showing up in Leicester this weekend with his bhajan budgerigar- Fakiranand. Is it just me that thinks it wierd?

Subject: Fakiranand [link] [nt] From: anon To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 22:42:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: link: http://www.ex-premie.org/best/pathalley3.htm http://www.ex-premie.org/best/pathalley3.htm www.ex-premie.org/best/pathalley3.htm

Subject: Murder Attempt in Detroit, new version From: Jean-Michel To: anon Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 13, 2002 at 02:10:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A real bad thriller: Murder Attempt in Detroit

Subject: Sorry, thought you were Catweasel From: gerry To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 13:21:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Musta been the accent. I don't censor posts but I delete spam. Sorry, my call, my mistake. It would help if you introduced yourself a little because it's only polite and we get a lot of feral Aussie varmints around these parts.

Subject: Aussie Varmints From: PatD To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 14:04:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..what do they know about what happens in an obscure hall in Leicester,England? I'll wait.

Subject: Re: Sorry, thought you were Catweasel From: The Falcon To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 13:48:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what accent? The second post may have seemed wierd but was in response to Spartacus who has not yet replied. I will post more later and introduce myself although Mike Finch and Patrick Wilson know me. Regarding my earlier comment on rabbits, no offence to Nottingham Bunny but I do love to eat rabbit (with a red wine sauce and polenta) but would not want to kill them, unlike M.

Subject: Eating Bunnies From: Nottm Bunny To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 15:25:53 (PDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Now Falcon, I told you earlier, talking like that could get you into trouble! And to everyone who thought the Falcon sounded a little wierd in his earlier post, that was very discerning of you. He is very wierd - as Mike Finch et al will confirm I'm sure. But he is rather lovable too. Bunny

Subject: You now have introduced yourself:) From: JHB To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 13:53:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Falcon, Just by saying Mike and Patrick know you is enough of an introduction:) BTW, do I know you? Welcome! John

Subject: Re: You now have introduced yourself:) From: The Falcon To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 14:00:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yes we met at the last London latvian evening.

Subject: Re: Fakiranand From: PatD To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 12:52:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I saw your earlier post,& the reference to the uzis. Didn't have time then to respond. Why did you say that? I knew a premie,nice guy but totally spaced out,who went to the wrong hans jayanti(Satpal's)in India during the '80's. After he'd realised his mistake he ended up backstage trying to get out,& was escorted away from the festival grounds by armed men. Freaked him out a bit.

Subject: Re: Fakiranand From: The Falcon To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 14:04:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: just a joke.I was recently invited to meet Fakiranand in order to 'put me back on the path of Truth' I would not want to close my eyes anywhere near him. Hammers in the 70s and God knows what in the na(o)ughties.

Subject: Naughties - good one Falcon From: Richard To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 14:15:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Welcome Falcon. Interesting relevations concerning Fakiranand. I received K from him in 1972. I think he would have made a Great Soul (or at least a great guy) had it not been for his misguided zealotry. Whoever even nudged him toward attempted murder should be held responsible. After all, not a leaf moves without Satguru's agya at his former level of devotion. That's a funny one, calling the 2000's the Naughties. Hadn't heard that before. Richard

Subject: He was getting a little wierd From: Francesca To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 16:13:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I almost received K from him in LA in 1973. At the time he seemed brilliant, perceptive. But later that year I was onstage prior to playing music at a program at Louis Armstrong Stadium in the NY area and he was VERY strange. Like a huge naughty child, singing songs, crazy for God. Even as a 'Lord of the Universe' premie I thought he was over the top. It wasn't so much what he was doing -- they couldn't get him off the stage or to cooperate at all as I recall -- it was his whole vibe. It was not much longer after that that I heard he had hammered a friend of my roomates back in San Francisco -- Pat Halley in Detroit. Some of those Mahatmas were fine when they were running the show and everyone was dancing to their tune -- all the premies in awe, great wisdom, yeah, and all that. I think they had a lot of fun being 'great souls' from another culture, enlightening us heathens who were in awe of their spirituality and their whole trip (man). When they had to be part of a 'team,' some of them were nutty as bedbugs and delighted in being impossible. But you are correct -- 'misguided zealotry' and all that. I also heard around the time of the 'holy family' split that Fakirinand went over to the Bal Bhagwan Ji side, as many Indian premies did that could not understand M's marriage to Marolyn. After trying to waste Pat over his devotion to M, I saw that devotion is blind. He could so easily just go over to BBJ's camp over his zealotry and misguided religion. Francesca

Subject: Re: Naughties - good one Falcon From: The Falcon To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 14:22:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: my money is on Raja Ji but we will never know. Mind you RJ always had good charlie, he used to roll into town and say 'queen's head or eye in the pyramid?'(Pound or dollar to roll up) what a freeloading wanker

Subject: just a joke. From: PatD To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 14:08:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....I'm on a very short chain these days.

Subject: Re: just a joke. From: The Falcon To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 14:18:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a limitation of this medium I'm afraid. It does not surprise me re; your pal and the guns in India. They have all that property to protect after all, that is my ultimate conclusion to the Indian guru business-LAND!

Subject: I also thought it odd that your post was deleted From: JHB To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:38:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .... although your second thread was a little esoteric! How did you know it was the same person? Did you recognise him after all these years? I don't think it's so weird. When I worked in the City in London people would switch banks, so why not switch employers if your employer is a guru? It's only business after all:) If the switch of allegiances is confirmed it is worth adding to the Fakiranand account on EPO. John.

Subject: Fakiranand gone over to Satpal? From: PatC To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:36:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting. What posts of yours disappeared? I haven't seen any by you before. You may have typed them into the wrong box. Nothing's been deleted from the forum in weeks.

Subject: I saw them earlier Pat NT From: Jethro To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 12:36:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: I must have been sleeping Jethro From: PatC To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 13:38:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I missed them.

Subject: Fakiranand in Satpal's camp for many years From: Carl To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 12:34:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (I tried to delete the question mark from my subject line.) There is no question; Fakiranand had switched years and years ago, basically around the time of the big family split, if I'm not mistaken, or not long after. I saw him in India in the late 70s and early 80s, associated with Satpal's Manav Dharm organization, or an early incarnation of same, and again in the U.S. in the 90s when he was presumably doing some Satpal-related propogation to the Indian communities in CA and perhaps NJ.

Subject: Pat - the posts were here From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:40:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There were two threads started by Falcon - the second was a little weird, so maybe Gerry deleted both without checking the first, which had a couple of responses. John.

Subject: A posting from JG From: Jethro To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 23:28:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just found this posting from someone called recent-ex to a premie called Spydoc(I think that is David Roupell or another lemming). This post has gone unanswered, as similar ones have in the past. Perhaps some present student of Prem Rowatt or even Prem Rowatt himself could afford the rest of the world(or at least me) an answer. Anyway here's the post from 25th May 2002: A person proclaims: 1)to be the most powerufl incarnation of god of all time... 2)that he will rule the earth as a king.... 3)that the entire world will realize that he is god.... 4)that an unimaginable paradise awaits us, if we all will serve him, and literally bring the kingdom of heaven on earth....the lion will lay down with the lamb.... 5)he will teach you how to always be in a state of bliss, which he supposedly is in...(now we know better...) 6)tells his followers to reject all 'worldly' pursuits, while he gets lost in pursuit of all of them, including acoholism, addiction to wealth,power etc... Well, I could go on all night long with the great statements that maharaji has made, all of them lies, manipulations or deceptions etc... His satsangs resemble bin laden and hitler's and if you don't believe that, read some of the original ones...like the peace bomb, on epo... Now you are telling me that new people would not want to know a bit more about this stuff?... If this stuff is no big deal, and doesn't bother anyone, why was it removed from ashrams in 1982,why is it hidden so carefully, and why are m and ev so scared of the original documents that are on epo? A person proclaims: 1)to be the most powerufl incarnation of god of all time... 2)that he will rule the earth as a king.... 3)that the entire world will realize that he is god.... 4)that an unimaginable paradise awaits us, if we all will serve him, and literally bring the kingdom of heaven on earth....the lion will lay down with the lamb.... 5)he will teach you how to always be in a state of bliss, which he supposedly is in...(now we know better...) 6)tells his followers to reject all 'worldly' pursuits, while he gets lost in pursuit of all of them, including acoholism, addiction to wealth,power etc... Well, I could go on all night long with the great statements that maharaji has made, all of them lies, manipulations or deceptions etc... His satsangs resemble bin laden and hitler's and if you don't believe that, read some of the original ones...like the peace bomb, on epo... Now you are telling me that new people would not want to know a bit more about this stuff?... If this stuff is no big deal, and doesn't bother anyone, why was it removed from ashrams in 1982,why is it hidden so carefully, and why are m and ev so scared of the original documents that are on epo?

Subject: Cult Leadership 101 From: Gregg To: Jethro Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 09:55:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think Prem Pal must have been passed out on the divan clutching an empty flask of Remy St. Martin when the Cult Leadership 101 class was meeting. There has got to be a better way of dealing with embarrassing moments from his past like the 'Peace Bomb' satsang than hiding it in the closet and, even worse, somehow blaming his misguided followers for his crazy bombast. Spin, Prem Pal! Explain why such over-the-top rhetoric was appropriate for those days. That wouldn't be too hard. Turn it into a positive, is what some of the better spinmeisters would probably argue. Pretend you knew wht you were doing all along. Burning old copies of 'And It Is Divine' (what a clunky name!) and blaming Avatar worship on misguided Westerners (did we write the words to Arti?) is just plain stupid.

Subject: It's so EASILY explained... From: Andrea E. To: Gregg Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:37:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Prem Rawat was just a BOY when he gave the "peacebomb" satsang. Besides, all little children are prone to exagerating things when they tell stories. And I think his mother let him eat far too much sugar, and you know how that can affect children, don't you? And really, be honest now. Have you ever met a 12 year old that DIDN'T think they were God in a bod? I have not. And anyway at that age, kids will often joke around, it's called "just KIDding" for a reason. Jeez, don't you guys have any sense of humor? Probably not, because you're in an Ex-Premie CULT. All the COOL students got the jokes right away. Really, what the heck did 12 year old Maharaji ever do to YOU? I think you ex-students should be ashamed of yourselves, picking on a mere child. I think this should be investigated legally, as you are probably guilty of child abuse. To make it even worse, your attacking a child that doesn't even exist anymore! Poor 12 year old Maharaji, can't even defend himself against your vile accusations because He's all grown up now. You all should be ASHAMED. And Maharaji/Prem doesn't need to take any kind of a "101" course, because He is the MASTER. If you would just SHUT UP and LISTEN to the Master, like a good student SHOULD, you wouldn't have all these troubles you keep going on about. Sheesh! As for the lyrics of Arti (a fun little Indian Halloween-type song), that was a cultural misunderstanding, which Maharaji/Prem solved, by turning Arti into elevator music. If some of the old students of the Master happen to remember the lyrics and sing along, it's hardly Prem's fault, is it? Anyway, it's POETRY, you cretins are totally lacking in subtly, aren't you? I don't know of a single modern SYNCRONIZED PWK who would admit to believing the lyrics of Arti literally. Not a single one. (My brother isn't syncronized, so he doesn't count). Oh, and as for "clutching a flask on the divan", I'd like to remind you that He can do whatever He pleases, because He is You-Know-Who, giving You-Know-What. You seem to have forgotten that. No wonder you don't understand anything, and keep filtering out the good. Quite sad, really. Andrea E. :), Who no longer uses her last name, because she lives in absolute TERROR of the Ex-Student, Ex-Premie CULT, with their abusive, question-mongering ways. :O

Subject: Re: It's so EASILY explained... From: Jean To: Andrea E. Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 12:20:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Andrea, you're sooo right, i FEEL how much are these ex-people nothing but utter loosers. You ARE so right! When You-Know-Who is giving You-know-What, and when You-See-What-You-See and You-know-What-You-Know, one is right to Think-What-One-Thinks. (I don't know what the translation of this very french joke sounds like). LOT of fun, hope to read more of this right stuff in the middle of the mud of these deluded sad folks here :)) Jean

Subject: Andrea, would you staighten this dude out please? From: Andy Daverdson To: Jethro Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 06:17:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean,like I'm just a cannabis encrusted 70's fossil who likes to bliss out at the lotus toes while grooving on the latst prem-rawat music video of watching hundreds of poor indian peasants feet as he march towards the real 'feet', if you can dig where I'm coming from, but hey dude, there's an explanation for all of this, it's just that I don't seem to have it , but my sis, Andrea, she'll explain it, like pronto, cos she's a PAM, or at least a wannabe PAM, who hangs with some REAL wannabe PAMS in upstate NY, and like she's even got a website that considers this and considers that (and considers everything, except the truth about prem, but hey, what the hell, go figure...), and she's got cats and dogs and a nice, comfortable house and a hubby too....whoa, my sis, she's really something, so I'll let her reply, cos she's synchronised and clear, amd me, well, I'm just too busy tuning my piano and rolling a nice big fat doobie for the speaker and our next recodng session, where he might even be compassionate even if he does hear some loud feedback, and well I'm just too blown away by THAT experience to go further, so Andrea, sis, some 'sang please?.....

Subject: Andy , maybe I've missed something From: Jethro To: Andy Daverdson Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 07:27:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but what is this nice big fat doobie for the speaker? Is doobie American slangor Australian English? What does the speaker do with doobies?

Subject: Doobie doobie doo - enhancing Knowledge From: PatC To: Jethro Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:02:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Andy, like many thoroughly modern PWKs uses doobies to enhance Special K. Knowledge goes better with drugs, doobies, joints, splivs, Paxil, Zoloft, Remy Martin etc. ''You can't fit K into your life. You have to fit your life into Knowledge. Knowledge is everything. It's not a hobby or something you do on the side. It's ALL you should do. You can't just do K when you want to. K is something that you do all the time. If you see K as the ultimate experience then how can you fit it into your life to suit yourself?'' Does anyone remember Rev Rawat saying that over and over again for the first ten years at least? I just got this email from a friend in Oz. Stop Press: Premies enhance the Ultimate Dozens of premies in Brisbane (nearest city to Amaroo) are presently visiting an channeler named Alexis who, by virtue of some very nifty hand movements, gives their 'energy body' a major workover. Premie visitors include an instructor. Amaroo's management have booked in too. This is more than one of the fads which swirl through Australian premiedom like schoolyard crazes. (Remember kombucha tea? Hypoglycemia?) The Alexis experience, according to attendees, 'enhances the experience of Knowledge'. It seems extraordinary that the Ultimate could be enhanced in any way - but it appears to have happened. Meanwhile, two hours down the Pacific Highway, the heavy dope-smoking by northern NSW premies - including M's most fanatical defenders on the web, an instructor, and the majority of the rest - continues apace, mostly for the same reason - to say to add a bit of extra juice to the Knowledge of all knowledges. Knowledge Plus, anyone?'' I replied: The same thing is happening here. You name it - and the prems are into it - ''emotional body massage therapy,'' ''radiant light therapy,'' ''aromatherapy,'' ''psychic readings'' etc. The local City Contact even has another meditation teacher and has said to me that he prefers going to his yoga meditation classes rather than being with other premies as the 'vibe' is better. That doesn't even take into account some of the less New Age therapies that the premies are getting into up to and including heavy boozing and the newest ''mood enhancing'' pharmaceuticals. I guess K doesn't even work for those who have been doing it for nearly 30 years. It certainly hasn't worked for the cult apologists who have spewed their bile on these forums for years. No one can accuse them of having ''good vibes'' or being kind and loving.

Subject: Doobie doo where are you? From: Neville To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 13:11:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember premises always being into everything going--if there was something weird, occult, eastern etc then premises would be in it up to their third eyes. Perhaps they were attracted to the weird. Or perhaps they were just card-carrying suckers (seems plausible). Neville

Subject: Re: enhancing Knowledge From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:14:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny PatC, but your post reminds me that many of us first opened our doors via pot and hallucinagenics. Once the doors were swung wide, the road company of Satguru Has Come marched right in. So it's only logical that, in order to keep the M&K dream alive, it would be helpful to throw oneself out of whack with chemical enhancement. For others, the occassional event keeps That Place within inside buzzing. Richard, far out man

Subject: Aum Shinrikyo Cult Still Has Appeal From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 22:50:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why Japan's Terror Cult Still Has Appeal For a cadre of loyalists, the group that released poison gas fills a spiritual void That's the headline and intro for an interesting article in The current Time Magazine. This part is worth mentioning. Asahara's group, which in 2000 changed its name from Aum Shinrikyo ('Supreme Truth') to Aleph (the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet), endures because its most loyal followers can't let go of their devotion to Asahara and his teachings. Hmmm, sounds remarkably similar to TPRF and PR. I'm not insinuating that M/PR is up to sarin gas terrorism but the above sentence certainly rings true. One follower says: 'I can't really figure it out, but there is a part of me that still hopes he can save me. I still want to believe in him'. Attention premies / pwsk: If you ever find yourself thinking like that, please take a hard look at why you believe in M/PR and ask yourself is he worthy of your trust. Why Cult Still Has Appeal Asahara's group, which in 2000 changed its name from Aum Shinrikyo ("Supreme Truth") to Aleph (the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet), endures because its most loyal followers can't let go of their devotion to Asahara and his teachings.

Subject: What do you expect from the land of Shota Kon? From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 02:42:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Shota Kon is a form of anime/manga/hentai (cartoon pornography) which depicts children being sexually mutilated. It is very popular on the internet and no I will not describe it. It's as disgusting as the Shinrikyo Cult. There is a cancer at the heart of Shinto (a primitive animism which infects the Japanese soul) that is as sick as Hinduism or Islam.

Subject: Re: What do you expect? From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 10:48:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's very disturbing, indeed. But my point is that there are remarkable similarities between Aum Shinrykio and the Church of the Latter Day Premies or perhaps that should be Crutch of the Latter Day Premies. Filling the spiritual void with odd belief systems appears to be universal. I notice the link disappeared from my first post. Here it is. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101020610-257135,00.html Aum Shinrykio www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101020610-257135,00.html

Subject: Similar but not as deadly - yet From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 13:16:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Asahara is on trial for murdering 12 people in the sarin attack. ''....his lawyers have argued that the attack was plotted and executed by his underlings without his knowledge.'' ''Every move he makes is closely watched by his disciples, wide-eyed men and women who flock to the courtroom because it's the only chance they have to bask in the aura of the man they still consider their spiritual father. 'It was always hard to tell what he was thinking,' says one of them, Hiroshi Araki, trying to explain Asahara's puzzling demeanor. 'He never did what you expected him to.' '' ''By one government estimate, there are more than 10,000 'new religions' in Japan, meaning anything other than the traditional Buddhist, Shinto and Christian sects. There is one group whose leader claims that he doesn't need to eat, bathe or sleep because of his superhuman powers; another outfit worships feet.''

Subject: Re: Similar but not as deadly - ever From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 08:28:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't at all entertain the idea that MPR would resort to such tactics. His modus operandi appears to be one of amassing wealth and adulation in life. The other messianic nutbars like Koresh were obsessed with eternal glory. MPR just doesn't seem to have the depth of conviction for that but I could be sadly mistaken. Richard who worships at Posties' First Church of the Faulty Assumption

Subject: Rajneeshees and Bioterrorism... From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 13:23:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard, How are you? Sorry for neglecting to respond to your posts below. One of the books I've been reading recentlyis Germs by Judith Miller, Stephen Engelberg, and William Broad. The first chapter in the book deals with how the Rajneeshees used salmonella typhimurium to 'sprinkle on the salad bars' in the area in order to make the non-cult members sick during voting time. This is an interesting and scary article about what they did. And man is this guy weird looking or what! Love, Cynthia Salmonella and Rajneeshees members.tripod.com/uforeview/bioterrorism.html

Subject: Re: Rajneeshees and Bioterrorism... From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 13:43:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Again, it was about gaining power - political power to further establish a foothold (pun accepted) in Oregon. Plus they plotted to kill the state attorney and the investigative reporter! Not subtle at all. Thank Goddess we didn't dance all night long. The Rajneeshis did that and apparently whooped themselves up into Bhakti Banzai mode out there on the Bhakti Bonanza Ranch. I'm doing pretty good, Cynthia. I goofed off and got the tomatoes, squash, pumpkins, zinnias and sunflowers planted this morning. This afternoon I'm driving down to the ferry dock for a last look at the baby orca that's been hanging around there. Tomorrow she is being moved into rehab and reunited with her pod next month. Richard, who like the whale, had salmon and not salmonella for lunch

Subject: The baby orca...OT From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 15:44:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard, Glad to hear you are well. I'm doing great except the weather here has been so weird I haven't been able to plant anything outdoors yet. We're getting a lot of need rain this week so I'll be delayed a few more days. Those plants seem to catch up though. And Richard, planting food in your garden is NOT goofing off. Not only is it one of my favorite and most therapeutic things to do, you get to eat what you grow! A truly wonderful thing. I haven't heard about the baby orca. Poor thing. Whales are incredible beings, aren't they? I hope they get her back with her pod. Much love, Cynthia I had never heard about the Rajneeshis salmon

Subject: Re: The baby orca...OT From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 16:40:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia, A 2 year old Orca (Killer Whale) has been hanging around the ferry dock here since January. Her mother died and she apparently wandered off from her pod. My theory is that she followed a sailboat thinking it was mom. She was named Springer at birth and the ferry workers dubbed her BOO for Baby Orphan Orca - aawww cute. Anyway, the whale experts want to try to heal her 'whale pox' and then reunite her with her resident pod off Vancouver Island in July. Each pod has it's own language so it is assumed she will be more comfortable back with her family. When I drove to the ferry dock, there were boats doing a trial run with floating pen, etc plus helicopters and news crews. Most touching was a NW coast Native group dancing, drumming and singing to wish the whale a safe journey. Yes, this is the US but also a very special place I call home. We've grown attached to seeing her swimming about and even leaping out of the water. Cool trick for a 2000 pound mammal. Naturally we are mixed about her 'rescue' and hope she makes it home safely. Attached is a news story. Watch for national media coverage Thursday. Richard, blubbering over saying goodbye to a whale Baby Orca www.king5.com/topstories/NW_061102WANwhalemove.26648a62.html

Subject: Jet Set Gooroo From: Marshall To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 10:33:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree. All ralwat wants, is to get as much wealth, land, material resources, etc. as he can. That's his way to have power. I mean look at him he's ugly, old, overbearing, boring, uneducated, loutish. etc. but... 'He who dies with the most toys wins' That's what life really 'is' S*U*C*K*E*R*S! Right maharaji?

Subject: Don't be envious, remember... From: GooRooGee To: Marshall Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 12:04:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You Too, Can Be a Satgooroo... www.geocities.com/cmsjourney/sc/satgooroo/u2satgooroo.htm

Subject: An ex returns to the cult From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 16:12:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Uptil now I have been taking Deborah's posts from LG to Symp for Jim to read as he is blocked from LG. I didn't figure they were interesting to most exes because they were mostly about her hatred for Jim. However her latest two posts are more like cult apologism and I would like to see what other exes have to say about them. Perhaps she could get a job with Prem's PR team. So here they are. --- --- --- -- Deborah to Catweasel 6-8-02 Cat, How did they make it from the 70's to the present without going through the '80's and the '90's is what I want to know. Nobody at the ex-forum seems to be able to do the math. I rec'd K in 1980 but all my friends were the early '70's crew and they all embraced the change. What are these exes talking about and how come it took them over 25 yrs to figure out Maharaji changed his public discourse. I know that the answer has to do with a loser, never was anyone-never knew Maharaji, Pam envying ex who left that long ago and is pathetically stuck in that time-warp. New exes come along and buy up the whole disgruntled enchilada not realizing those concepts were personally handled for them decades ago. Weird eh? Why don't the exes at least talk about their own life rather than battle demons of complete strangers? cheers, deborah, who is only a one-post woman today --- --- --- --- --- Deborah to Carlos 6-9-02 I'm being honest-most exes are not and if they had experiences that were more real, they wouldn't be saying the stupid sad sack shit they do. Most of those are from people who either were so rigid and socially stunted at the time, (and I know some of the exes who never say those comments and non-coincidentally, were'nt stunted) or they are in denial of the changes they flowed with until they got brainwashed by a loser's story. Now, anybody with a clue could tell who's story that was I was referring to in that comment. Interestingly, all the exes who were hip NEVER make the type of allegations that I criticize. And I was no less ambitious than any premie to get darshan, I just was bold, and not dwelling in 'rightous little premie-land ' enough to act on it. That's the only difference. Wouldn't they like to think that they had the real thing and I didn't? Their imbecile responses attest to the opposite. Like I said, not all the exes. Some of them were very current, and embraced change. Dermot's description is mutually exclusive. An ex-premie cannot say those statements and have been hip and devoted at the same time. Impossibility. They would have been miserable and bitter and confused and lost and that would undoubtedly have hindered their expereince. Ironically, the exes who had the most significant experiences or darshan related history have the least hangups about stories like that. There's a good reason. They know for a fact that assertive premies got what they wanted. Many premies sat around feeling sorry for themselves, waiting for some magic invitation. And if you weren't hip or confident and able to play it cool, you didnt' get invited to the big house or around M. That's a fact. Think about which exes say what? Think about which exes don't say the same what? Speaks for itself. Cheers, deborah, who can't believe how frantic the exes retaliate when confronted with honest history

Subject: Re: An ex returns to the cult From: DeProGram Anand Ji To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 19:46:18 (PDT) Email Address: not given Message: Right On! F those sad ass losers! All you need to be included in the hip assertive darshan crowd is to be self-confident damn it! If you really want to be included in the winners circle it doen't hurt the be a blonde white female, early to late 20's, with a great figure and willingness to go to any extreme to please the Master. Don't hate me cause I'm beautiful darling!

Subject: does she ever mention her lord? [nt] From: bill To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 18:04:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yes, lots of darshan stories From: PatC To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 12:18:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gushing about how she stalked Rawat to get a guru fix etc but mostly she posts about how sick ex-premies are. Here's her reply to Catweasel who had said: Oh well, probably better that they stuff us around than people who have no idea of their devious natures. It's only an illusion that they are stuffing us. (Great expression BTW). They have definitely stuffed themselves with their own bullshit so badly that no spin in the world can get them out of it. However truer words than these have never been spoken about some exes: As well they will do anything it takes to make something fit thier version. Yup! Understatement...might also account for their last statement before the undertaker puts them out of their misery. What are you doing these days? I don't see much of you here. Still banned by the spin loving scaredy cats at F-VII? SympieBoys? Just as well if you are. But I'm sure you're sitting quietly purring in the corners even if you are banned. cheers, deborah, who realizes their bullshit will never end and doesn't want to make their problems my business or reality

Subject: Egad, good I stopped reading her. [nt] From: bill To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 14:14:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: An ex returns to the cult From: Bob Schmitz To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 01:41:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It has been 6 months since I last posted here. I have gone through very hard times being deported from the US, where my kids still live. Funny how one compensates, in my case I have immersed myself in optical theory, with a lot of math, which is, believe me, not my naturally favoured subject. It is just too painful to touch the feelings. It made the forum seem very irrelevant. Once in a while I lurked, but part of the problem was that I use a small 14' monitor now, which shows really small print. What does not help either is the slow dial up connection. But seing this thread I just had to react. Sure I can imagine someone drifting away from the forum, just like I have been doing, because of a shift of focus, different company or computer problems. What seems to me really WEIRD is that anyone having been around here for a while actually returns to the cult. What on earth are they thinking???? Can anyone explain any of this? Has someone ever done this themself? (i am not talking about premies drifting in and out of the cult but real exes) There is only one scenario I can picture; like my sister converting to Islam before she remarried Bob , now living in Holland

Subject: hello Bob From: PatC To: Bob Schmitz Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 02:05:38 (PDT) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: I know a little about what it was like for you and I am sorry that it turned out the way it did. This whole Deborah episode is such a long story - maybe you'll figure it out if you stick around. It's too late and I'm too tired to explain right now. I hope you are well and prospering.

Subject: Dermot's explanation (from LG) From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 02:12:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know if this makes it any clearer. I'm mostly reposting this as Jim cannot read it because he is blocked from LG. Dermot to Carlos Subject: So what do I think, Ccarlos?? Message: Well first off, I really wanted to leave once I’d finished chatting with WH, as I have a lot on just at the moment. However, as you ask what do I think, perhaps this is a good time to make plain a few things. Better to say what I think and to stand up for some basic values. Values I hope are common to Ex’es, prems and non-Prems alike. Though lately I’ve been mostly avoiding Deborah’s posts …..the posts of a troubled (IMO) individual in Western Canada don’t really affect my life , my views, my peace of mind or my “anything” really…when I do read them I usually find them hilarious (in the “totally absurd” sense, that is) and feel pity for her. The pity doesn’t translate into respect though. Nevertheless, no one can deny that she’s often been the centre of attention recently. I personally think she revels in being an “issue” and feels a bit put out when she isn’t. So, with that in mind, I’ll address the “issue” with a few of my own reflections. Then I’ll drop it because, as I’ve just pointed out, to me she’s not that important an issue to spend too much of my time on. Though it’s probably best to get some stuff off my chest. Anyway, Carlos, I notice on f7 you state that Deborah has real “class” as she once made a mistake about you and subsequently apologised. Well yes she did. I wouldn’t really call that “class”, I’d just call it normal. Just something a person should naturally do. Also, I know for a fact (100%, absolutely certain, no doubt about it , it’s all in the archives sort of fact) that , as in many other instances, she was first prompted by fellow Ex’es to face her mistake. I was the one (and I think other Ex’es too) to post on the forum and inform her that she’d made the mistake and should perhaps re-consider her position regarding you, Carlos. The instance I’m thinking of is when she attacked you in typical blunderbuss fashion, laying into you beyond all levels of reasonableness and, to top it all, actually got you mixed up with someone else! On another occasion, when she wanted to publicly diss a Premie on the web ( Sheldon Jaffe?) she was also advised to opt for decency and caution rather than some over the top action. I think she already realised this but still Ex’es were willing to advise her. Again, on this very forum (LG) down below you’ll notice her over the top “hitmen” language and talk of “taking them out” concerning Maharaji and Jagdeo. You’ll also notice Nigel politely pointed her in a more reasonable direction. So why point all this out? Simply because it reveals something very interesting, IMO. Those awful “pathological” Ex’es were the ones willing to point her in a different direction when she was veering beyond basic human values into realms beyond decency.This when she was still on the Ex’es “side”, so to speak. In contrast, sadly, she’s allowed full rein here. Not only that, it seems she’s positively encouraged to spew out whatever flows from her unchecked mouth. I think only one Premie, Lou, once voiced disquiet about the appropriateness of encouraging her. Perhaps he recalled the death threats to Maharaji/Jagdeo. However, Cat soon squashed that one. Any friend of an enemy is a friend of mine? Cat’s defence? People are allowed to change? In his heart of hearts , though, surely he knows the pattern of her behaviour hasn’t changed. Only her targets. The big difference now, though, is there are no longer any Ex’es to keep her excesses in check. Indeed, as some now are pointing out, those big macho OZ voices are silenced in her presence. Through her manipulative ways ( the same manipulation, no doubt, that got her those front seats and made her scorn her fellow Premies who just took things as they came) she basically rules the roost. Quite pathetic to behold really. To change tack slightly…I’d like to make something plain. If anyone befriends Deborah, well that’s fine by me. Personally I try to take people as I see them. I don’t feel too comfortable with factionalism. No doubt I’ve sometimes annoyed some folks on these forums and some have annoyed me. I don’t like to hold permanent grudges though. I’m always prepared to let bygones be bygones. Sometimes I lapse from this but, deep down. I prefer any difference to just be philosophical as opposed to personal. With Deborah though, sadly, it seems my patience has just run out. I tried my level best to communicate with her when things first started to take a turn for the worst but she firmly brought the curtain down. Jim also, for a long time tried to communicate with her (defend her, even) till again the curtain came firmly down. So too did many others but the curtain came down. Her new “enemy” had to be treated accordingly. It seems she’s never happier than when she has a “group” to hate and a “group” to manipulate. Sorry, that’s all I can see and it isn’t at all pretty. I simply can’t find anything to respect in her. That’s quite unusual in me, believe me. Maybe she’ll change, who knows? As it stands, though, after my time on these forums she is the lone single person I just no longer have any time for. Sad but true. Finally, that other issue. Did Deborah threaten to have Pat C killed? To some it’s a big issue and to others a non-issue. Me? I made up my mind a long time ago. I believe Jim is telling the truth and Deborah is lying. Plain and simple. She’s already on record as originally stating that a “verbal” threat is different and of a lesser order (really?) than a “written” threat. The clear implication being that she made a “verbal” threat but it didn’t really matter. This, by the way, was before Jim made public the full extent of the threat but it was clear he and Deborah both knew something “big” had gone on in their phone exchange. Also, does Deborah have a track record in this regard? Well just look at the threats dished out to Maharaji/Jagdeo. Given her natural responses to her “enemies” would she likely make such a threat to Pat C via Jim? Yes, I think so. Is it likely that Jim would fabricate something so extraordinary? No. I know what a lot of you Premies think about Jim and in my political discussions with him I’ve, at times, also been exasperated and pissed off. Still, unlike many of you Prems, I hold him in the highest regard and just do not think it is remotely likely that he’d just cook up something like this. No way. I’m amazed at how a lot of Premies have weasled out of this one. It’s so “in yer face” and obvious. Deborah is allowed to lie about this , that and the other and she’s allowed to spew this , that and the other but as Maharaji is now clear of any of it, then Premies remain mute. Dear oh dear, eh? Anyway, that’s all I’ve got to say Carlos. That’s what I think. Yes I try as best I can to be fair and gentlemanly. Sometimes I fail and say things I really regret. But do I regret having no respect left for Deborah? Nope. If she changed, maybe I would too. As it is, I’m no longer interested in her over the top deliberations. That’s just how it is. No doubt the feeling is mutual but I certainly won’t lose any sleep over that fact. Anyway, Cheers Carlos Time for a break now …. Catch ya later Dermot --- --- --- --- --- --- --- - And Carlos' response (including a gratuitous dig at Jim) was: Carlos-I hear you, Dermot. But Deb and I both felt she turned around about me not from the 'you are wrong about Carlos' remarks she got from several of you but from my not flaming her back but instead responding to each of her flame posts with an essentialy calm rebuttal. Maybe I'm wrong about that. And if it were anyone than Jim reporting the 'threat', maybe I'd buy it as something spoken in heat where she went too far. I haven't caught him in the lie direct, but do I consider him capable of it, to protect himself from losing face, or to advance his agenda? Damn straight I do!!! And he's used the lie indirect many times. One example that you may even have noticed yourself ... have you seen how he tries to divine my motives, is CONSTANTLY claiming some kind of 'admission' on my part? And frequently the context of the very post he is quoting from makes his interpretation impossible. And on the 'Deb threat/ no threat issue ... in some posts he flat says he has witnesses; in other posts it sounds like he had none. And until yesterday when Cynthia made me an apology I don't feel she owed me, Deb was one of only 2 exes who'd flamed me who EVER apologized. The other was gerry when he made a false accusation against me (not maliciously, he thought I'd done something to him I hadn't done.) But he didn't apologize until proof he was wrong was put on the BB. She apologized cause she found out her attitude was wrongly aimed. I think it would be good for Deb to take the next step in her withdrawal from exdom, and quit trying to have fun by poking at you guys. I think any engagement with you guys leads her into internal issues she hasn't resolved yet. But that isn't my business. What is my business is to say that in personal corespondance with me OFF the BBs I've seen the changes in her, the lessening of rage in her life, the increase in 'I' statements and looking at her part, & the lessening of 'you' or 'them' statements and assigning blame to others. It's been a gradual thing and she backslides when she gets involved with Jim or PatC, etc., but, guess what! in a fair number of eMails when she was at her most upset with exes and especially Jim, PatC and gerry, she never ONCE breached confidentiallity, not even of people she dispised and thought had done that to her. So my opinion of her is a bit different than yours. Which is OK; we just need to find things to talk about where we can get something out of it, rather than topics we'd just be at loggerheads about. If you come back, which I'd welcome if you ever wish to.

Subject: You make me sick, Carlos From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 02:30:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a disgusting snivelling Uriah Heep creep of a culthead you are, Carlos. You really revolt me. You said: ''...she never ONCE breached confidentiallity, not even of people she dispised and thought had done that to her. So my opinion of her is a bit different than yours.'' Deb sent all of my confidential emails to Roupell, you braindead two-faced lying hypocrite - it's all on record on Symp. You better wake up fast, Carlos. Either that or you are fully awake and are simply ignoring your conscience. How can you sleep at night having to live with so many lies? Especially all the lies you tell yourself.

Subject: Re: You make me sick, Carlos From: Carlos To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 13:08:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know you and others claim she violated your confidences. I can't affirm or deny your claims. But it seems weird to me that if breaking confidentiality is so easy for her, such a regular part of her behaviour, that she didn't tell me any juicy 'secrets' that she shouldn't have.

Subject: You make me sad, Carlos From: PatC To: Carlos Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 16:03:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Deborah sent all my private emails to her to Roupell who then twisted them and posted them on Symp. She accused me of sharing one email with other premies but the fact is that I told her at the time that I was going to do just that as they were entitled to know how she was dissing them. My theory is that she did not share any juicy 'secrets' with you because she knows that you are not as evil-minded as Roupell. You may be one of the silliest people I have ever met but you are not as evil as Deb or Roupell.

Subject: Pat, PMFJI but you forget that From: Jethro To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 04:37:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bhaktis are expert at self-anaesthetism. He thinks it's all about seeing god everywhere. They make up the required lies to support 'their own truth'. Deviancy at it's lowest.(moonies and hare krishnas call it divine deception...aty least the admit it's deception). Also, if anyone's read the Ramayana, by Valmiki (not Tulsidas' version ), it is clearly explained that whatever a bhakti says becomes the Truth and when a bhakti sneezes the holy name goes out in 21 different directions. Carlos probably has convinced himself that he is doing a real service. These bhakti types are the most dangerous, because when they finally crack they go bananas. At least catweasel and roupell somewhat admit and know what scumbags they are. They like Rowatt BECAUSE of the type of person he is, ie a liar, bully and mysoganist...particularly the mysoganism which seems to be characteristic of quite a few Oz prems I have met. all the best Jethro

Subject: This one's a real corker... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 00:10:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From Deborah to Jerry: June 5, 2002 Jerry, But it's limiting to try to keep focused on a single point and as far as I'm concerned, boring. Well Jerry, The point is that the 'point' is merely the vehicle, not the experience itself. That's why so many (most?) premies use to fall asleep under those blankets. That could be for several reasons. 1. They meditated when they were tired, ie before going to sleep 2. Being woken up to meditate against their own will. People who are spiritual seekers normally accept discipline willingly as a means to fullfil spiritual goals. Many premies accepted the discipline begrudingly. That was one good reason for the ashrams to close. 3. They were not sure what the hell they were doing and never admitted it There was nothing there that interesting to keep them awake. Well, they probably didn't achieve the experience but just the process of the techniques if they considered it non-interesting. I don't experience it every time but go through the motion of the techniques, however, I am available for the experience by going through the techniques. The worse that happens is that my mind calms down, and my intention to focus on what i real gets practice. Gee! That is an achievement in itself. The discipline of going through the techniques is paying off for me since I've meditating again because it is getting easier to slip into that state and I am having it more often. One doesn't have the experience just because they philosophically believe they don't need a guru to have it. One has it, because they have it. And you don't have it because you can argue successfully about it, either. I don't get it while I am posting or watching television or talking on the phone. I get it when I am beyond my mental state and engaged in meditation. I sometimes can feel the 'holy name' surge outside the ritual of the techniques and practicing meditation brings that about more often as well. I don't know how you can speak for other premies' experience or for boredom. How do you know if they were focused or thinking about their premie lot in life or worried if they were 'getting it' or whatever? I do understand how you can speak for yourself, ,BTW, but not them. And did you find your successes in meditation boring, or are you thinking about your non-successes? cheers, deborah, who is not sure what you're actually saying or mean Now here's a woman who has a serious globalized thinking defect. She tells Jerry, and everyone else that they cannot speak for everyone or anyone else, yet she does it constantly. This is called talking in absolutes. It's a mental defect in thinking and has nothing to do with education or intellect. It's a problem in the thinking process. I don't believe she sees this in herself. This is clearly someone who doesn't have a clue about anything that happened to those of use who entered the cult in the early years and spent years in ashrams. Clueless, dangerous thinking, but clueless nontheless. A pity..

Subject: I just re-read that and - yeah, clueless it is From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 00:38:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I feel kind of guilty saying this because it's unkind but she reminds me a bit of Joan Apter in her two hour satsang era. I hereby dub her Deborah the Winger.

Subject: Re: talking in absolutes From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 00:21:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cyn, I found the expression 'talking in absolutes' interesting....I sort of get it, could you expound? I'm up against something that sounds like that coming at me from someone at the moment, it's very distressing because it's as if they are talking unquestionable truths at you without considering what they are saying could even be remotely debatable..... could you please help me out on this. Love AV

Subject: Speaking in absolutes From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 10:09:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV, Talking in absolutes is something I learned about because I used to do it on occasion. By on occasion, I mean a part of me had this flawed thinking process. It was often used in anger. Absolute thinking is also tied into globalized thinking. To stop doing it one must become aware of it and then reframe the thought process. Globalized thinking is when someone uses their opinion, good or bad, but usually bad, and broad brushes everything with that opinion. Eg., Every man in the world is bad because.....fill in the blank; all woman have been abused because....fill in the blank; all ex-premies are being put through thought reform by Jim Heller because he is a bully:) These statements aren't logical, nor true and honest statements. They are based on incorrect thinking. The words and phrases 'always, never, every, all the time are used when speaking in absolutes. Speaking in absolutes is when someone uses their opinion and states it as fact, often using the above-mentioned globalization of thought. It's flawed thinking. All men are not bad because some are abusive, for instance. Every one of Maharaji's followers is not bad because a few are cybertrolls. Everyone in the world is not an asshole because there are a few assholes in the world. In relationships of all kinds (intimate, employment, friendships, parent/child) talking in absolutes is common. 'You never take out the garbage.' 'You never are nice to me.' 'You always ignore my needs.' 'You always lie to me.' Those words, the 'nevers and always,' are absolutes. It's easy to get stung by them because they are stated as fact, and using them is hurtful to people because it places the recipient in a double bind. There's no argument for 'never, all the time, or always,' because the person speaking in absolutes believes in what they are saying. I guess this can be connected to cult thinking. 'Maharaji is always there for me.' 'Maharaji never lies.' 'Maharaji loves everyone.' All these are the absolutes Maharaji has repeatedly stated over years in his cult. After a while a premie will believe that what he says is true. In his case, though, I believe strongly that narcissism is involved and there's no questioning a narcissist who is unable to see anything about themselves as questionable or injurious. Learning to substitute these absolute words with 'perhaps, maybe, in this one instance, in my opinion, etc.' helps to recognize that the absolute words and phrases are false and illogical. In those phrases the truth becomes lost and the absolutes become 'globalized.' As I said, there was a part of me that used this defect in thinking as a protective device for me when I was a child. I won't go into the details of that because they are private. It took me a long time to reframe how I say things in this regard. My husband was a tremendous help because he would observe me whenever I would behave and think that way and call me on it. But it was my therapist who named it for me and taught me how to stop and correct the flawed thinking process inside my head and how I expressed myself to others. It wasn't an easy thing to accept about myself, but once I could step back and see how incorrect, and unfair some of my thinking patterns were I was very eager to change. That's the wonderful part of being human. We can learn about our flaws and choose to change them (or not):) It's not surprising that you and Pat have felt, as the recipients of this kind of thinking and speaking, the affects of it but were not able to put a name on it. I hope this explains. Because I am aware that I once had a part of me that used this flawed reasoning, now when I read Deborah's posts her globalization of all ex-premies as being 'whatever she chooses to say'' and expressing it as fact, is glaringly transparent. Learning about myself and this type of thinking and speaking was also part of growing up and becoming a mature adult...I hope this helps. Cynthia

Subject: Re: Speaking in absolutes From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 13:09:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Many thanks Cyn, how do you get someone wth unflinching faith in M to see that 'Maharaji's always always there for me' doesn't equate with hitting the bottle or being unable to cope with 'this world, ' 'that mind' etc.....sheeesh , wot a bag of worms. And then saying...'its because I'm so crazy I cant be in that place M showed me all the time.....'

Subject: Thanks Cynthia From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 14:05:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your post helps explain why, in recent years, I have bristled when someone uses an absolute. I am just not confortable with absolutist thinking because it smacks of bigotry and because it is arrogantly preposterous. Unless of course one says The sky is NEVER made of tuna fish which would be true. (Just had a tuna salad for lunch). I hear examples every day. Nobody ever talks about ... translates as I'm the only one intelligent enough to talk about . . . MPR loves to use that one. ALWAYS have faith in god. NEVER delay in attending sastsang. DON'T put off until tomorrow what you can do today. CONSTANTLY meditate and remember holy name. Richard, always right (except when I'm left)

Subject: you left out this one too From: janet To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 01:23:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: leave NO room for doubt in your mind. absolutes , all.

Subject: leave NO room for doubt in your mind From: Jethro To: janet Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 02:48:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That turned out to be good advice. That's why I HAD to leave him.

Subject: NEVER question the purity of the master [nt] From: Richard To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 06:49:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: talking in absolutes From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 00:43:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When Cynthia said, ''It's a problem in the thinking process,'' I felt that I knew exactly what she was talking about but, like you, I would like her to elaborate as it is interesting.

Subject: Deborah is Bazza (or maybe Rob..) From: It's obvious, really To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 19:59:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but in tights (and uptight): Clue: Think about which exes say what? Think about which exes don't say the same what? Speaks for itself. Scintillating observation or what. QED.

Subject: They sound the same because....... From: PatC To: It's obvious, really Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 00:46:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''It's a problem in the thinking process,'' as Cynthia said. It's called ''telling so many lies for so many years that you can't tell the truth anymore syndrome.''

Subject: People of no importance From: Sir Dave To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 17:07:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think the to-ing and fro-ing on these forums is over magnified and it is not really what's going on. The net isn't real life and what is expressed on these pages isn't necessarily what's happening in people's lives. Playing out dramas on the web is only that - drama on the web and a waste of time, in my opinion. I mean, it doesn't have any relevance at all although it can be mildly interesting for a day or so. There will always be loudmouths and people who believe they are very important and yet what have we here? A few forums with a few people and a few loudmouths letting loose. Most people, I'm sure, don't give any credence to the online battles between premies, exes and ex-exes. They will come and read what they want to read about Maha and then quietly stop their credit card donations and nobody here will ever know about it. I have exed part of Wales in the last few months and yet none of it has shown up on the net because it was all done by post or by word of mouth. It's easy to shout your mouth off on the net but most of such shouting is of no importance or relevance to what is really happening amongst premies and exing premies, in the real world.

Subject: Exed part of Wales!!! From: JHB To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 02:02:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Congratulations, Dave! I hope you weren't speaking too LOUD while you were doing it. Also, if any parts of EPO are written too LOUD please let me know and I'll turn down the volume:) Whispering John.

Subject: Re: Exed part of Wales!!! From: Sir Dave To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 04:05:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well part of Anglesey, actually. Llanfair Gaerwen Pwllgwyngyll and surrounding area. John, if you read my post again you'll see I was refering to Deborah's post that Pat put up here.

Subject: Your post says no such thing From: JHB To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 10:14:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, Why can't you see that your post is totally unclear about who are the loudmouths you refer to? You also appear to belittle all debate between people who post here. Of course, you will answer that you didn't intend your post to mean that, but with a little more care in your use of language, you could avoid these misunderstandings. Did you get my email about searching zip files? John.

Subject: I'd have thought it was obvious From: Sir Dave To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 16:31:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: since I was replying to PatC's post where he reposted a post by Deborah. Got your email and will reply. John, I've given up trying to explain myself in this medium. I talk as I do in real life with the words I use in real life and if people take offence, I can't (or won't) change my style. Now me snooty? Hardly. I mean, just look at the business I'm in...

Subject: Honestly, how could you believe Dave here? From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 13:11:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's all a meaningless game to him, remember? Ones and zeros. No reason to be honest. Honesty's for real people in the real world -- maybe. Dave, once again you're lying your face off and, no, you won't admit it because that would take real world integrity. I'm completely with Cynth et al. on this. There's no way in a million years that you were referring to Deborah and Deborah alone and your attempt to pass that lie on us is offensive. Jim The Church lady according to Dave who says that I should take that description as a compliment

Subject: Generalizing... From: Cynthia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 23:58:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think the to-ing and fro-ing from these forums are not over magnified. What is over magnified is your ego. You can be so condescending and that really sucks. You do you think you are? You are not the big ole cybergod you used to be. And you've aided in the recent backlash created by Deborah who joined forces with the very trolls who attacked you publicly including your daughter. Sometimes you can be a real asshole, David. Go back to your little website and talk about the weather and boobs with your cybersex girls. You're starting to really disgust me. Talk about hypocracy.

Subject: Generalizing indeed From: Sir Dave To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 03:56:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought you weren't talking to me, Cynthia. Now have I ever said an unkind word to you? No, never. So why the venom for me? You needn't answer.

Subject: To: David... From: Cynthia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 10:24:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David, I am sorry I lashed out. I have no excuse for calling you an asshole. The reason I did is because I have felt insulted by your reducing what is said on this forum to a binary code. Also, I was having terrible insomnia and was feeling angry. You were the recipient. It was missplaced anger in this instance. This is not an excuse, but a reason--there's a difference. I guess I don't understand you anymore. Enough said. Cynthia

Subject: Take no notice of me, Cynthia From: Sir Dave To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 16:58:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As soon as anything I write causes offence, just throw it into the dustbin of irrelevance. Now if I really wanted to cause offence, I damn well would and there'd be no mistake about it. But in this instance, put it down to my hastily written post.

Subject: Don't apologize From: Jim To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 13:27:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave's playing games as he always does when he gets confronted on something stupid he's said. That's why he didn't ask you to respond. He knew exactly what you were talking about.

Subject: Re: Don't apologize From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 14:57:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know he's playing games and I resent it. I just don't like to be nasty when it's a result of lack of sleep...I'd rather be clear headed about it:) I am still quite insulted by Dave's dismissing my past questions regarding the AG forum and his alliance with Deborah, et al, and the church lady comment in his post about the demise of this forum. I am also disappointed in his view that we are all 1's and 0's. I didn't realize he could be so arrogant. I guess I have a like/not like relationship with Dave. He's a difficult guy to figure out. But I try to give him the benefit of the doubt. I am so confused... NOT;)

Subject: Re: People of no importance From: Moley To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 19:44:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The net isn't real life and what is expressed on these pages isn't necessarily what's happening in people's lives. Playing out dramas on the web is only that - drama on the web and a waste of time, in my opinion. I mean Well why bother to post this then?

Subject: Re: People of no importance From: PatC To: Moley Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 21:35:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Precisely, Moley. Dave keeps saying it's only 0s and 1s and unimportant but he also keeps thinking his opinion counts. Maybe we should just all pack it in and let people email Dave since he has just deprogrammed the premies of Wales singlehandedly. Perhaps he should stick to talking about ''gels'' bazooms on his own forum, ''How's the Weather?''

Subject: Talk about taking my words the wrong way From: Sir Dave To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 00:23:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't see what's offensive about my post. I was talking with Deborah's post in mind. I mean, if you want to see me as an enemy or something, well go ahead but my post does not imply that.

Subject: Liar! From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 13:14:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Quit playing us for fools.

Subject: Pants on fire From: Sir Dave To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 16:53:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No not fools but really I can't be bothered to explain every written statement just because some people take me the wrong way.

Subject: Can't be bothered? Get lost From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 16:24:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are such a slimey little limey, aren't you, Dave? God, to think I ever respected you!

Subject: No Jim, I won't From: Sir Dave To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 16:39:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have never insulted you besides including you in a ''church lady'' post. You however, do not stop insulting me at every available opportunity. What kind of trip are you on, man? You seem to think it's OK to less loose with insults and expect other people to just accept that and do nothing? Sorry, it's not acceptable to me and if you were to talk to me like that to my face, I'd most likely tell you just what I thought of it - and you. But I'm not going to start a war with you here on the net, though. You're just not worth the trouble.

Subject: More specifically From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 17:58:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, this is why what you say is so patently false. You initially wrote: I think the to-ing and fro-ing on these forums is over magnified and it is not really what's going on. The net isn't real life and what is expressed on these pages isn't necessarily what's happening in people's lives. Playing out dramas on the web is only that - drama on the web and a waste of time, in my opinion. I mean, it doesn't have any relevance at all although it can be mildly interesting for a day or so. There will always be loudmouths and people who believe they are very important and yet what have we here? A few forums with a few people and a few loudmouths letting loose. Most people, I'm sure, don't give any credence to the online battles between premies, exes and ex-exes. They will come and read what they want to read about Maha and then quietly stop their credit card donations and nobody here will ever know about it. I have exed part of Wales in the last few months and yet none of it has shown up on the net because it was all done by post or by word of mouth. It's easy to shout your mouth off on the net but most of such shouting is of no importance or relevance to what is really happening amongst premies and exing premies, in the real world. (emphasis added) But when you were first asked about what you said you claimed (pretended?) that you were only talking about Deborah. Deborah's one person, Dave. Who else were you talking about?

Subject: It's your own fault (and you know it!) From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 11:50:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, You're not honest. You say offensive things -- like the 'church lady' comment -- then you play this whole bullshit game where you do most definitely play for a fool anyone trying to talk with you about it. As I say, you're not honest. I used to think you were but you've now demonstrated several times that you'll say anything to avoid accountability. Am I insulting you? Yes. Is it true? Unfortunately, yes.

Subject: You were talking in absolutes From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 00:51:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I knew that you were talking about Deborah but I also know that you are so used to talking out of two sides of your face that you sent your usual mixed message. It's a pity that you are so snooty and condescending, dear knight, because, when you aren't, you can be so astute.

Subject: oscars From: laffing girl To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 14:47:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i have been reading the forum for a couple of years and don't want to post or anything but recently i was talking to an old friend who has also had enough of all the crap and apologised for ever taking me to satsang in 1975 i said i would email something that i had saved but have now lost does anyone remember a spoof list of oscar nominations to prem pal and the usual suspects? i laughed so much the first time i read i only just made it to the loo if anyone can tell me where to find this or link it on the forum she can have a good laugh too i have searched the best of and the archives but no luck thanks in anticipation

Subject: Re: oscars From: Joy To: laffing girl Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 00:48:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear laffing girl, I believe that post was done by Joe Whalen last year, who posts as Joe (and posted as JW before that). Perhaps you could do a search for Joe's posts, if possible, and it might come up? I remember it also, and it was particularly brilliant. There's a lot of Joe's posts that would be good for an ex-ing friend, he's put up so much excellent stuff over the years. Best of luck to you and your friend, Joy

Subject: Hi Joy. nt From: Tim G To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, Jun 11, 2002 at 17:16:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Joy Good to see you are still reading. Lotsa Love Tim

Subject: Hi Tim (nt) From: Joy To: Tim G Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 00:31:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep, still hanging about now and again (once an addict, always an addict). Will e-mail soon. Luv, Joy

Subject: Hi Tim. Hi Joy. From: Richard To: Joy Date Posted: Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 08:04:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, my name is Richard and I'm a forum addict. Well, it's not really an addiction, it's an obsession for us LWWJNGI - Loosy Winers Who Just Never Got It. We must have been all GooGoo GaaGaa when M took a hard right turn into the thoroughly modern 80's. Yep, we were still having acid flashbacks and actually thought we were seeing the M-ster prancing around in Krishna regalia well into the 80's. Silly us. Richard, recovering in the colonies

Subject: Are our kids really immune to gurus? From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 12:14:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Read my story before clicking on above link. It's been said here by several people that our kids will never fall for the Hindu guru con-game because they are smarter and more skeptical than us. I'm beginning to doubt that. Last week I told the story of a professor at Stanford University who had briefly fallen under the spell of Shri Shri Ravi Shankar. She escaped because she was a particularly independent-minded woman in her late thirties. Last night a friend of mine, another professor at Stanford (philosophy) brought two of his graduates to dinner. One grad is off to Harvard to do her PhD. The other is going to MIT to do a PhD - both in psychology. Now these are the sort of people with whom you can have a real conversation. Last night we talked about Socrates, Epicurus and William James which of course led to religion and I put in my two cents worth about my brush with gurujism. Well, the psychologist who is off to MIT told me that his parents who live in Australia have just gotten into a Hindu guru, Mata Ji. His parents are my age and he is my son's age - twenty-something. I laughed and said I was not surprised as my generation seemed to be real suckers. We talked about how I had fallen for it because of psychedelics. Then he surprised me by telling me that he had checked out Mata Ji and had come away convinced that there was something very real there and that he was going to follow it up. I was shocked and asked him to keep in touch with me by email and let me know what happens. I also let him know in no uncertain terms what I thought about Hinduism and especially gurujism, charisma, staging, suggestion, psychological conditioning, brain chemistry etc. I told him to read EPO. I think I've got my work cut out for me for a long time to come. I can't believe that educated people can fall for this stuff. Ex-premies are uniquely positioned to educate people about the dangers of Hinduism and gurujism in particular. Maybe he will get his whole psychology dept studying EPO. I hope so. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi www.geocities.com/jai_shri_mata_ji/

Subject: Re: Are our kids really immune to gurus? From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:01:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I believe the answer is absolutely yes. I found this article on Rick Ross's website. Cults are infiltrating vulnerable young students. They are not only neo-eastern type gurus. The other type of thought reform are the many motivational speakers and the 'human potential movement.' These people and organizations have obtained mainstream fame and use that influence by getting corporations to have employee trainings. The url to the humam potential movement on the Ross site is: http://www.rickross.com/cgi-bin/htsearch Cults on Campus www.rickross.com/reference/icc/ICC252.html

Subject: Did you mean ''no?'' From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:14:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Me: ''Are our kids really immune to gurus?'' You: ''I believe the answer is absolutely yes.'' Judging by the link you posted, I'd say you meant ''no, our kids are not immune to gurus.'' It's very scary. Most of us early premies dropped out of university and were not on the whole very educated. In fact it seemed to me that most of the early premies were quite uneducated and had spent a lot of the time they should have been studying taking drugs instead. But most of our kids' generation seem to go to university and STILL they are not immune to snake-oil salesmen. If I didn't have a conscience, I'd invent a religion and get rich quick.

Subject: Yes...I meant...NO... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 12:28:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, didn't get much sleep last night...most definitely a no.

Subject: no From: Susan To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 21:29:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, at least not polygamous ones who claim to find gold plates in New York says that Jesus came to Missouri and start the fastest growing cult in the US.

Subject: Are the Mormons the fastest growing cult? From: PatC To: Susan Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 00:55:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wouldn't be surprised. They offer an alluring Reaganesque fool's paradise to certain retro type kids. But how could any rational person believe all that Latter Day Saints' crap about Jesus hovering three feet above the ground and...oh boy? I wonder is it any better than the Holy Roller nonsense. The LDS are a bit more civilized but so distorted as people - cramped, stifled Kens and Barbies. They are a political/economic force to be reckoned with in California. Scary stuff - much worse than the other major religious force here - the Roman Catholic Church.

Subject: Hari Krishna is back From: Jerry To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 18:30:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You can see them with regularity in New York in the East Village. And they're not old geezers trying to make a comeback, either. They're as young as we were when we became premies. Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna, Hari Hari, Krishna Krishna.....

Subject: I kind of take them for granted From: PatC To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 01:19:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We get all sorts of eastern religion adherents in the restaurant, turbans, long robes, pointy hats, bald zenists, saffron haris - I love 'em all. Some are as bats as the fruits, nuts and vegetables that I serve but they are all kind and sweet. But but but - there is something wrong - always. Mostly they have stopped studying western thought probably for the same reasons that we did - disillusionment with the Socratian/Epicurean foundations of western civilization. This Hindu crap really is atavistic. Why would westerners want to go back to what basically amounts to a form of fancy animism? Why not study Socrates or Epicurus? Instead of Buddhas eightfold path, why not revere Epicurus' eight precepts? Don't fear God. Don't worry about death. Don't fear pain. Live simply. Pursue pleasure wisely. Make friends and be a good friend. Be honest in your business and private life. Avoid fame and political ambition. I guess Epicureanism sounds so boring compared with finding the ecstasy of god-realization. It's the quick-fix catch - instant gratification. Some people grow out of that. Some people never fell for it. I sure did. There's no better Epicurean than a reformed hedonist.

Subject: Re: Are our kids really immune to gurus? From: Neville To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 15:55:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: None of us are immune to anything. I often think of Albert Speer and Martin Heidegger--intelligent men fooled by Hitler and Nazism. A lesson to us all... Neville

Subject: Re: Are our kids really immune to gurus? From: PatD To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 13:30:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....yeah I can believe all that.Once one starts thinking & knowing one realises that it's impossible to get to the bottom of everything,& then the seductive spiel of these people kicks in. I can show you something beyond your dreams etc....forget trying to be a renaissance man...that old possibility is gonzo. Didn't click on the link. The REALLY important question for up & coming snake oil merchants. Are gurus immune from the attentions of neanderthally challenged parents ? My kids are lucky,they ever fall for one of these guys,that guy is going to have to spend ALL his/her ill gotten gains on just maintaining...you know,that sooooooo simple thing.......breathing. Dat's de troof mon.

Subject: Does M make ALL K decisions? From: la-ex To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 07:37:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm asking this question because of a curious thing that I heard M say a few years ago in Wash. DC. This was probably 2 years ago, in the summer... there was a tour and I was on the east coast in the DC area and went to see him for one last time. I knew that I was already ex-ing, but figured, what the hell, let's see fatso one more time to see if he says anything worthwhile. (He didn't, in case you're wondering..) BUT, he did say something very interesting, and I would like to know if others have picked up the same thing over the last few years... He was talking bout things changing (of course, making it look like an evolutionary thing, not a massive 'clean up' effort, thanks in large part to the revelations on epo), and he talked about a person receiving knowledge. He said that he disagreed with the 'new process'...that he was from the 'old school', where the aspirant had to commit to knowledge and the master, then get it. He implied that in the 'new school', the aspirant could get knowledge after some process, but didn't have to make the commitment that they would have had to do in the old days. The argument he seemed to be citing was one that goes like this-'how can I commit to something,until I really know what it is?' In other words, let me have the knowledge, and then when I see what it is, I can commit to it, if it really is so great.... This was in contradiction to the old school, which said -'commit first,on faith, and then you'll see how great it is'..... ANYWAY, here's the point.... M made it very very clear that he opposed this new approach, but would go along with it..... So the question is, is there some sort of group of premies that advises him on how to present it? He made it very clear that he didn't agree with this new 'MO', but would go along with it.... Has anyone else heard him say something like this, or heard PAMS talk about this? It definitely came from hs mouth, and definitely seemed to indicate that the decisions for the 'new approach' did not come solely from him, but from others, and that thy were 'overriding' his opinion.... Anyone heard similar things? (I think this is an interestng and important point,,,)

Subject: Just a minute From: Sir Dave To: la-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 17:32:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've come to the conclusion that Maha is a total bullshit artist and the minute anything he says is considered to be important or have meaning, is the minute people start getting confused.

Subject: Precisely From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 01:22:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sometimes you are so damn astute.

Subject: K decisions-a bit more clarification From: la-ex To: la-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 13:23:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's the point I was trying to clarify: In the DC ramble-logue, M alluded to the fact that there were new changes underway, relating to the entire K-process. I think it was primarily in relation to the new, improved Auto/Self/DVD/ knowledge that he thinks will be the answer. In his description of it, he alluded to the fact that it would go a certain way, that he didn't entirely agree with it, but would go along with it.... This was different than M criticizing premies work....this was M saying that a new direction was being taken, but that he didn't agree with it, but would tolerate it. It seemed to indicate that the decision came from a group of people, and that in some way his input or perspective on it was being over-ridden. Does anyone think that was the case? Is there a group of premies like Alvaro or Tim Gallwey etc. who advise him on stuff like this? He would never admit it publicly...I'm just wondering if anyone thinks there is such a group. ALSO, in the same talk, he alluded to the fact that a group of people advised him to read some 'spiritual/new age' pop literature to get 'more with the times'. He said he thought about it, and decided not to read the books that were recommended, and was glad he didn't. Do either of these ring any bells? They would seem to indicate that M isn't the Big Boss he makes himself out to be....

Subject: Oh, he is From: Francesca To: la-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 23:23:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's just a new way to hedge your bets and have someone else to blame. Only in this case, he's blaming them in advance. He's really not responsible, you see. He only calls all the shots. He's also basically saying that he has to lie to people to sell his product. He's really 'old school,' but he's going to sell it like he's 'new school.' More bait and switch. Tiring. Same old, same old. --F

Subject: Translation From: PatC To: Francesca Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 01:29:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''I would really like to demand that you chop off you head and leave everything to me in your will before I give you the Special K but we live in the 21st century and we're not allowed to behead people in Malibu so I have (sigh) had to adapt to modern times and do a fucking stupid auto-K DVD which is just so outrageously unlike anything that my blue ancestor Krishna did - why it's just so technologically advanced and I'm so damn excited about myself I'm practically peeing my pants with pride at how far we've come since Shri Hans smacked manmuts' brains out with his walking stick... yadda yadda yadda....'' The guy is full of crap. Like Dave said, the moment you take anything the idiot says seriously - you're in trouble.

Subject: Whose really running the show? From: Inside Edition To: la-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 19:49:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, there ARE a group of trusted rich Malibu PAM's who 'advise' him (Tim Gallwey, Valerio and Alvaro Pascotto, and by the way, Mrs. A. Pascotto is the head of the new Prem Rawat Foundation)- and there are others (head mahatma Ira Woods) - but how can you really 'advise' when you are scared to death of pissing-off the Boss, and getting banished from the inner circle? Jean-Marie Bonthous (he whose name cannot be mentioned here) got 'fired' after the San Yisidro fiasco, and it took years to get back in. But there is only one person running the show in Malibu - the living lord of the universe!

Subject: Re: Whose really running the show? From: Crispy To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 07:28:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This whole thread has prompted me to revisit the Narcissistic Personality Disorder article (orginally posted a few months back by Cynthia). The tips at the end on how to deal with/handle a narcissist would be helpful for Pascottos, Galleys and other present-day PAMs! :- Here they are:- FIVE DO's/DON'Ts - How to Avoid the Wrath of the Narcissist: 1) Never disagree with the narcissist or contradict him 2) Never offer him any intimacy 3) Look awed by whatever attribute matters to him (for instance: by his professional achievements or by his good looks, or by his success with women and so on) 4) Never remind him of life out there and if you do, connect it somehow to his sense of grandiosity 5) Do not make any comment, which might directly or indirectly impinge on his self-image, omnipotence, judgment, omniscience, skills, capabilities, professional record, or even omnipresence. Bad sentences start with: 'I think you overlooked... made a mistake here... you don't know... do you know... you were not here yesterday so... you cannot... you should... (perceived as rude imposition, narcissists react very badly to restrictions placed on their freedom)... I (never mention the fact that you are a separate, independent entity, narcissists regard others as extensions of their selves, their internalization processes were screwed up and they did not differentiate properly)...' You get the gist of it. THE TEN DO's - How to Make Your Narcissist Dependent on You If You INSIST on Staying With Him 1) Listen attentively to everything the narcissist says and agree with it all. Don't believe a word of it but let it slide as if everything is just fine, business as usual. 2) Personally offer something absolutely unique to the narcissist which they cannot obtain anywhere else. 3) Also be prepared to line up future sources of primary NS for your narcissist because you will not be IT for very long, if at all. If you take over the procuring function for the narcissist, they become that much more dependent on you which makes it a bit tougher for them to pull their haughty stuff - an inevitability, in any case. 4) Be endlessly patient and go way out of your way to be accommodating, thus keeping the narcissistic supply flowing liberally, and keeping the peace (relatively speaking). 5) Be endlessly giving. This one may not be attractive to you, but it is a take it or leave it proposition. 6) Be absolutely emotionally and financially independent of the narcissist. Take what you need: the excitement and engulfment and refuse to get upset or hurt when the narcissist does or says something dumb, rude, or insensitive. 7) Yelling back works really well but should be reserved for special occasions when you fear your narcissist may be on the verge of leaving you; the silent treatment is better as an ordinary response, but it must be carried out without any emotional content, more with the air of boredom and 'I'll talk to you later, when I am good and ready, and when you are behaving in a more reasonable fashion'. 8) If you are a 'fixer', then focus on fixing situations, preferably before they become 'situations'. Don't for one moment delude yourself that you can FIX the narcissist - it simply will not happen. Not because they are being stubborn - they just simply can't be fixed. 9) If there is any fixing that can be done, it is to help your narcissist become aware of their condition, and this is VERY IMPORTANT, with no negative implications or accusations in the process at all. It is like living with a physically handicapped persona and being able to discuss, calmly, unemotionally, what the limitations and benefits of the handicap are and how the two of you can work with these factors, rather than trying to change them. 10) FINALLY, and most important of all: KNOW YOURSELF. What are you getting from the relationship? Are you actually a masochist? A codependent perhaps? Why is the relationship attractive and interesting? Define for yourself what good and beneficial things you believe you are receiving in this relationship. Define the things that you find harmful TO YOU. Develop strategies to minimize the harm to yourself. Don't expect that you will cognitively be able to reason with the narcissist to change who they are. You may have some limited success in getting your narcissist to tone down on the really harmful behaviours THAT AFFECT YOU, which emanate from the unchangeable WHAT the narcissist is. This can only be accomplished in a very trusting, frank and open relationship. ALSO OF NOTE: The onset of narcissism is in infancy, childhood and early adolescence. It is commonly attributed to childhood abuse and trauma inflicted by parents, authority figures, or even peers.

Subject: Hole in one, IE [nt] From: PatC To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 01:32:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Each way bet From: Peter Howie To: la-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 16:10:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is all an approach that lets him have K-lite on toast as well as sending the clear message to the old timers that the old truth is really still the truth after all. So now anyone can decide for themselves what MJ is saying. Point here, take the words literally and he says 'Try it and buy it' and point here and see the hidden meaning and implication and look at it this way and he's saying 'I'm still the old style guru after all'. Cheers Peter

Subject: I think that the impression he likes to give [nt] From: Loaf To: la-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 15:37:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Does M make ALL K decisions? From: Loaf To: la-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 10:04:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes I too have heard him 'play dumb' or play 'passenger' in the face of opposition. He likes to tease people into thinking that things are out of his control... at Harrogate a few years ago he said (of some videos in which he and his daughters had had a considerable influence) 'I dont know what all THAT has to do with Knowledge'.. which was exactly what the audience were thinking. This double bluff puts him on the side of the Premies, both struggling against the beurocrats upon whom all mistakes can be blamed. Peter Lee said to me once 'He aint so humble offstage' and its very true. At my Instructor Conference he made it very clear that he was in charge ... But clearly only when it suits him - and when the shit hits the fan.. it suits him better to shift the blame onto his shit covered fans.

Subject: Re: Does M make ALL K decisions? From: michael donner To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 11:08:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i have never experienced that m was not in charge...always ready to blame and shift blame as stated above. he is very comfortable playing fast and loose with the truth as it suits him, from my experience...and ...as peter lee is quoted above saying, 'off stage he ain't so humble'.

Subject: Re: Does M make ALL K decisions? From: Vicki To: michael donner Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 11:34:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The last time I saw Raja Ji, he talked about Maharaji not being the humblest of people, infact quite the opposite. But that of course is the master's prerogative. And then Maharaji popped up saying how former Masters were egotistical. He said it in the context of, and this is the jist of it, this wasn't how he was.

Subject: Re: Does M make ALL K decisions? From: JMcG To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 04:52:42 (PDT) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: Whilst agreeing with Dave and Pat (above) that M is full of it, and not to be believed on any subject (anyone who can forge his own lineage can do anything), and with Peter H’s good observation of the mixed message (IMO M’s most popular and potent weapon), for the record, what Mike Donner says of his day is true with bells on now: M decides everything. He has advisors and PAMs telling him things - but he is at liberty to ignore them and frequently does. M decides what goes on the road signs at Amaroo (minor), and how and where millions of dollars are spent (major) - and everything in between. For instance, Yoram - the guy who raises the money - will say to M: ‘M, we just can’t afford that.’ M will say, ‘Yes we can.’ (This in part explains EV’s ballooning debt situation.) Watch the PAM body language around M: faces like rabbits in the spotlight; bodies tense and edgy, terror frequently just below the surface; long, forced laughs. The PAM’s motto, even more than the grunt premie’s, is: ‘Tremble and obey.’ John

Subject: Re: Does M make ALL K decisions? From: Thorin To: JMcG Date Posted: Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 05:44:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John Tremble and obey Yesterday I listened to 90 mins or so of the 1977 Portland Co-Ordinator conference tape (as preparation for digitising). Even then (when M was just 18 years old) it is clear that this trembling and obeying feeling was very much in evidence. Amongst all the humour and bonhomie, Maharaji's message was crystal clear. Service is surrender and surrendering to Guru Maharaj Ji, surrendering to God (his words) was what was required. There was a palpable air of fear amongst the audience when Maharaji said this. Somewhere along, one co-ordinator voiced some doubts as to the direction of propogation (pracher). The poor co-ordinator just wanted to have Maharaji's clearer direction on this issue. Sheeesh Maharaji just blasted him, told him to go do some more meditation and, through that, he will understand what is required. I felt really sorry for this poor premie - he must have suffered deep anguish. Another instance is a co-ordinator who wanted some feedback from Maharaji about being a co-ordinator but not being in the ashram but being a 'householder'. Once again Maharaji's response was illuminating. Basically 'householders' were a burden and should 'step aside'. Unbelievable. Maharaji compared life after K to Heaven, before K to hell. Lots of other stuff was mentioned. He talked quite a bit about the initiator selection procedure and how he was intimately involved in this process. He used, as an example, of how Nick Seymour-Jones and Peter Ponton went through the IDP program but disqualified at the last hurdle by himself because they did not live or had ever lived in an ashram. I am not surprised to hear that Maharaji still takes all the decisions - he started young! Bests Thorin

Subject: Anyone going to Vancouver? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 17:09:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is there anyone here who's planning to go to Vancouver this Wednesday? Let me know... jimheller@shaw.ca Thanks

Subject: Core Consciousness From: Peter Howie To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 16:45:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi again. I've been reading amongst the neuro-everything - cognitive neurobiology, neuro-anatomy etc. One author Antonio Demasio - wrote a book recently The Feeling of What Happens - he has a nifty split of consciousness. Between core consciousness and extended consciousness. Core consciousness is the consciosuness that allows us to be and operate in the present moment - extended consciousness is all our memories, feelings sense of self etc - the 'who we are' bits. My conjecture at present is this: Is this core consciousness, this aspect of our functioning that keeps us in the moment - the part that all these religious groups including MJ, is this the aspect of our functioning that they are all after for us to be in. That is - for us to function in the moment only, to be present only. Or to put it another way, and this is my fun bit - to be like a dog or other animal that is pretty much in the present as well. To leave behind the evolutionarily fantastic aspects of our consciousness and return to an earlier evolutionary moment. This is different from the reptilian brain ideas which are pretty fruity. Anyway - I quite like it. MJ and his apostles asking us to return to an earlier evolutionary epoch. Hope this idea is useful Peter Howie Brisbvane, Australia

Subject: Re: Core Consciousness From: Jerry To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 18:03:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is this core consciousness, this aspect of our functioning that keeps us in the moment - the part that all these religious groups including MJ, is this the aspect of our functioning that they are all after for us to be in. It's interesting that question needs to even be asked. You'd think Maharaji, being so 'clear' because he's the 'master', would leave no confusion in our minds what he's talking about. The only masters (if that's what they are) I've come across who are clear on the subject of consciousness are zen buddhists. They're pretty clear on what their philosophy is concerning consciousness. To them, core consciousness, awareness in THIS moment, is the only thing real. Somebody should ask them how real it is in non-rem sleep when it's nowhere to be found. Anyway, yeah, that's what they encourage. BE AWARE. Be in tune with core consciousness, be mindful of it. Maharaji's a different story altogether. His is a hodgepodge of consciousness and idol worship - just be conscious but remember how important the master is because after all he's god in a bod who is clear about everything under the sun but just be conscious and remember the master who's everything you want to be but just be conscious. The two don't seem to fit together, do they. Amazing how it sells. Or to put it another way, and this is my fun bit - to be like a dog or other animal that is pretty much in the present as well. Yeah, but are they conscious, John? Science remains undecided. I just think this eastern philosophy of consciousness is akin to Descartes realization, of his being, wrapped up in his famous statement, 'I think, therefore I am'. Descartes, like his eastern counterparts wanted to touch absolute reality, so he started with the premise to 'doubt everything', but he couldn't doubt himself, that he was. The same with the eastern philosophers. Consciousness is a fact. It can't be doubted. It is. And focus on it can help clear the mind and ease concerns that plague it. Some people, apparently, even have superb mystical experiences through adroit focus on consciousness, something I myself have never been able to acieve. I like daydreaming and fantasizing too much.

Subject: Re: Core Consciousness From: Peter Howie To: Jerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 04:20:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your thoughtful response. Its interesting the way your response has unfolded. The same author Antonio Demasio wrote an earlier book called 'Descartes Error' where he showed through neuro anatomy et al how the body actually provides a feeling background and that consciousness without feelings/emotions is very feeble. He is quite scathing about how there has been this historical division between thinking adn feeling. He works hard utilising a lot of hard data to show that they go together for a person to function at all. In fact one of his examples is about the person who can't decide between two dishes in a restaurant and seesm to get stuck - you know the one MJ used to ponce on about. Well it turns out the guy had a brain lesion that meant his emotions and feelings didn't work. So ultimately making a rational decision deviod of feelings is impossible beause there is no ultime rational reason why a person should have one dish or another. Same with the whole of life - without emotions/feelings (Demasio uses them differently but a bit picky for now) we are unable to make decisions because most decisions need a larger vision, purpose, sense of purpose and that rational stuff doesn't do it alone. Anyway I now think more along the lines of 'I am therefore I think'. Cheers for now Peter Howie Brisland, Australia

Subject: Right on Peter From: Sir Dave To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 17:51:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think you should write a book or something. It would certainly help clear away some people's cobwebs.

Subject: Re: Core Consciousness From: AV To: Jerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 02:56:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My own understanding all those years ago was along the lines of: conciousness exists because of an energy, a primordial potential which allows us to be. We are subject to the effects of conciousness; i.e. our cognitive powers, interpretation of information about our 'outer universe' gathered through the senses; we are also party to to other 'subdivisions' within the realm of consciousness; those dependant on time, i.e memory, projection of past events onto future possibilities, and altered states; trance, dream, drug, mystical etc. where normal waking reality and 'normal' perception of the world around us are replaced with an enhanced view, a higher vision. one of the big 'selling points' of knowledge at the time was the idea that , although we are concioius, we are not directly aware of what is actually making us concious. The example frequently given was that of a movie projector; the light (conciousness) is projected the the film (the mind) to produce the picture we watch (the manifest reality). To be able to turn our awareness away from the 'projection' we need a tool, i.e. knowledge , to re-focus our awareness on the light(source of conciousness itself). This in itself is a very plauysable model. what it doesn't include is the vast moral issue of surrendering power of all one's personal discrimination and rationality to a 'master', through whom, and ONLY through whom the application of those tools, those techniques actually work. if we were having an experience of the source of our conciousness, it was referred to as Guru Maharaji's world, to be with that Lord within. in recent times, the terminology has been supplanted; 'that place', 'that gratitude' etc etc. This would mean that conciousness is not just individual , but universal; that somehow we are all connected in this 'primordial vibration', and it is the master alone, who is at one with that vibration, and thus the only being capable of bringing other beings into attunement with, essentially , his own self. This falls neatly into line with the Christian belief of Christ as the 'Word made flesh', where the 'WORD' is the primordial vibration, source of pure conciousness, and the promise that 'as I AM, all men shall be'...and in Hinduism, Krishna's declaration in the Gita about the devotee who constantly fixes his mind on him eventually comes to (merges with) him. It is my conviction that this is the core beleif of most people who came to knowledge in the early years of M's arrival in the west. It was very clearly put across by some pretty amazing (great souls) who were around at the time. Certainly to me it all made sense at the time.

Subject: Sorry, Peter From: Jerry To: Jerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 18:29:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought I was talking to JohnT there for a moment.

Subject: Help needed with premie music... From: Chuck S. To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 13:39:47 (PDT) Email Address: chuckS1981@bootbox.net Message: My sister and her husband recently have flown out from back east to visit the Bay Area. My sister brought with her a cassete tape of Premie Music that Francesca had given her about 20 years ago, when my sister was visiting me just after I had recieved Knowledge. The tape is a real blast from the past. The tape is titled 'Songs of Love'. Does anyone remember any of these songs: I Will Give Up My Life The Only Treasure In My Life In Your Eyes You Are Real I Need You I Am A Begger Until You Are The Only Thing I See I Depend On You Calling To You I Am Weak Closer To You Simple Song Unless I Know I Love You King Of Hearts Every Little Bit Awaken You Are The One Make Me The Dust Of Your Feet The Sweetest Call My sister never became a premie, but she liked the music quite a lot. I expect many people did, there were a lot of talented premies making music back then. Our local musicians often performed live at Satsang gatherings, and it added 'good vibes', a real element of warmth and community that touched a lot of people. I want to transfer this music onto CD, but have never tried this before. I know how to record from cassette to .wav files on the computer, but the recorder built into win98 has a recording limit of 60 seconds. I have NeroBurning software, including NeroWave Editor, but the .wav editing controls seem as complicated as a rocketship to Mars, and it also has a time limit I can't seem to adjust. Also, the sound quality of the tape has deteriorated, and I want to know if there is anything I can do to enhance it? Do any of you more technical minded folks have some suggestions? Could you point me in the direction of some web based resources that might help a recording newbie like myself approach a task like this? Thank you.

Subject: Chuck, I will own up .. From: Francesca To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 17:53:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... to having been one of the singers and guitarists on that tape and to having penned these devotional nuggets from that bunch: The Only Treasure In Life You Are Real I Need You Until You Are The Only Thing I See Calling To You I Am Weak Closer To You Simple Song Unless I Know I Love You I think that's it. Oh dear, I hope I don't start remembering some of the lyrics. Aaahhhhhhh.... Simple Song was supposedly sung all over the premie globe. It was written in 1973 and got picked up by others when I sang it at international programs and pre-Millenium events (not always from the formal stage). It got sung so much in a town in Ireland that my Irish friend in LA in the mid-70s was surprised to find out I'd written it and not the girl who always sang it at satsang. There was a bunch of musicians in the San Francisco Bay Area (San Francisco, Berkeley, Oakland and Palo Alto) that played, sang and wrote almost all the songs on that tape. There was a premie from Palo Alto that did all the recording. It's a blast from the past to hear that your sister still has it. Yikers. Memorex will bite ya in the posterior when ya least expect it. F

Subject: Yes, the sincerety .. From: Chuck S. To: Francesca Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 11:43:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The sincerety did come through. My sister loved that tape, even though she never became a premie. I found the lyrics of some of the songs too "grovelly" to be completly comfortable with, yet I liked the MUSIC and SINGING, and just accepted the groveliness because, well, they were so SINCERE. I'm not really familiar with what kind of music they are selling now. The last CD of premie music we bought was in '97, I think. It was One Foundation, with songs like: Weeping In My Joy Brand New Love How Can I Ever Stop Lovin' Times Within Your Love Paradise Fire In My Heart The Need For Love You Saved Me Message Of The Heart Loving Is Where We Start The last time I heard the song "Teach Me Devotion", the line that goes "...and make us all one" was changed, to something more PC, like "...and make us all feel love". I think there were a few other changes too. I'll bet the really grovelly songs have all been eliminated. When we were doing the committee meetings, we were discussing how to make video events more appealing. Several of us wanted live music and song. The idea was always scuttled by our Industrial Strength Churchlady, who insisted we could have any RECORDED music we liked, as long as it was from the list of offically approved songs. It was exactly that sort of "dead", controlled vibe we were trying to break up, but it was hopeless. Spontinaity was not what it was all about. You could do anything you wanted... as long as it was what Maharaji wanted. And the Churchladies, who attended all the trainings, knew what that was, and were on the committees to insure that THAT is what happened. Hence the fanatical insistance on "unanimity". Unanimity insured that the committees couldn't move forward unless they eventually gave in to the Churchladies. What happened to the sincerity? It's been replaced with Knowledge Propagation Packets.

Subject: Once again, bait and switch From: Francesca To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 12:33:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chuck, Love that one -- grovelly! PERFECT! That was it. Makes me squirm to think of my own old lyrics. If it weren't for the sincerity, I wouldn't be able to listen to any of it ever again -- mine or anyone else's. It's that same kind of ridiculous desperation that's in regular mainstream love songs -- 'I can't live without your love,' and all that romantic stuff I cannot stand, and don't, for a moment, believe. 'I'm nothing without you' -- I mean, take all the lines from many sappy top 40 hits and American country music and you have the worst bunch of whimpy, whiny expressions as you'd ever want to see. No wonder I went 'punk' when I first moved out of the ashram. But the premie wimpiness was one step up the scale -- sacrosanct, divine wimpdom. Now that you mention it, that was one of my drips -- the music. I used to play music at satsang all the time, for years, and so did many folks I knew in the various communities I lived in. I was music coordiator for a while in LA in the late 70s, making sure that there were musicians available and present for all the larger programs and the small satellite satsangs in ashrams and homes. In 1983 or 1984, before I moved from the Bay Area, the mandate came out about the types of songs that could be played at satsang, and the satsang format. It was a major drip because the grovelly premie music (along with the grovelly premie satsang) was now taboo. And we clearly weren't being trusted, even after being told what the deal was, not to express too much personal devotion. Most of the time, coordinators that had begged us to play their favorite songs now told us to leave the guitar in the case, or conveniently never found the time to call on us for a song. The whole thing was just bait and switch, because all the same devotional, kissy-foot principles were still at the root of it, as well as the mandate to adhere to the latest satsang and PR formats mandated by Rawat through his instructors. As it got more and more phony, nothing but taped music, no more satsang in homes, meeting rooms in neutral places such as banks, folks wearing business dress and suits, to only initiators or certain annointed trainees giving satsang -- well, by some point in 1985 after we moved away, we were 'outta there' as far as the community in our area as well. We'd visit the Bay Area around that time and of course go to satsang with our friends (I mean, premies didn't know how to do anything else on a Saturday night). Usually if it was insider 'premies only' satsang it was some initiator or other explaining the latest attempts at the deception, and the most recent directives from Rawat. At that point, my husband and I walked away after some Sally Reeder pep talk on the latest new reorganization/revisionism and agreed that it was a 'Simon Sez religion.' All this contrivance and instruction just reaffirmed the fact that it was phony, phony, phony. Love, F

Subject: The New Coldness... From: Chuck S. To: Francesca Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 13:58:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's interesting that they didn't just tell you to stop playing the grovelly songs. They stopped live music and individual satsang, because they didn't want them competing with M. All attention was to be focused on Him. This New Coldness pretty much broke up the San Francisco Community, which used to be enourmous. Pat and I attended a video event in an expensive hotel room in the late '80s. Hardly anyone was there, and it was sterile and boring. The community had dissapated along with the warmth. Premies often complain that what is said here is often about the events of the 70's, and that we don't acknowledge the changes and 'improvments' of the 80's and 90's. But that's just not true. Sure the 70's stuff get's discussed, but there are many people who'v posted here who've left in much more recent times. Pat and I only left a year and a half ago, after doing a lot of sycronized participation, which forced us to really look at what we were dealing with. The secrecy and control freakiness. The contrast between what aspirants are told, and what comes later. It made me feel like a liar, I HAD to look at it, and ask questions. All this emphasis on being synconised and controlling everything and forbiding spontinaity. The Atlanta Training Video was the final straw. Talk about COLD. It certainly wasn't anything like what the aspirants were being told. If the so-called changes made in the 80's and 90's had been sincere changes, it may have made a difference, may have added some credibility. But it was just window dressing, it's still the same old devotional kissy-foot bhakti guru worshipping eastern religious cult it's always been. It's just the same old book with a new cover. It's PAINFULLY obvious, to anyone who is willing to look with complete honesty. Fran, calling it a 'Simon Sez Religion' is really just being too darned NICE. -)

Subject: Well, I'm pleased because From: PatC To: Francesca Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 00:48:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......the copy that I had was stolen when I lived in the Haight. I still haven't figured out how a copy got to the ashram in Durban where I played it all the time 76-78. I must say I didn't listen to the words much but to your voice which was just gorgeous.

Subject: Don't know what was around in 76-78 From: Francesca To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 01:23:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The stuff Chuck is referring to was recorded in Berkeley-Oakland-SF in about 1980-81. All I can think is that we were so damned SINCERE that some folks that were not premies were taken by that, and didn't judge how wacky the concepts were that we were espousing. There was an LA Premies tape from the mid-70s with a bunch of different people on it including me and Beckon Gently, a group I was a part of. Anything else with me on it was unofficial and I probably don't have copies myself. And back in the days when it was very hard to duplicate tapes some of my tapes were never returned by people who 'borrowed' them so there ya have it. Have no idea what was on that tape in Durban! But it did give us a connection many years ago. --F :-P

Subject: Re: Help needed with premie music... From: CD To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 14:01:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CD Creator by Roxio is the most popular software out there for recording music onto CDs. CD Creator Chris

Subject: Adaptec = Roxio, Thanks From: Francesca To: CD Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 12:46:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Chris. The Nero Burning Program is supposed to be good as well. Not sure if the Roxio software (or Nero) has recording capabilities as far as creating .wav files from analog files played in real time into the computer -- but I've never checked my CD Creator software. I use it for burning all the time, though. My Turtle Beach sound card (really old hat but still kickin') came with its own proprietary software, but I bought CoolEdit 2000. Some of the Soundblaster cards come with Sound Foundry, and some cards come with Cakewalk. Without using the right software for recording, folks on a MiniDisc bulletin board I used to post on several years ago would complain that the Windoze operating system limits you to 60 seconds of recording. Of course, there may be a setting in the Roxio/Adaptec software that will do the same thing as Sound Foundry, CoolEdit, Cakewalk, Goldwave, etc. Bests, F

Subject: Thanks CD... From: Chuck S. To: CD Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 11:30:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I will check out that link. Regarding this blocking business. I'd like to offer a suggestion. If you unblock Jim from LG, I will unblock Deborah from Symposium. That way, if there is an argument on LG that you don't like, you can tell them to take it over to Symposium, and your forum doesn't have to become a battleground if you don't want it to be. Would that be at all helpful?

Subject: Pat and Chuck - wld u pls block CD? From: Jim To: CD Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 16:06:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As CD's blocked me from LG it seems only fair that he not be able to read the ex sites, don't you think? Thanks, Jim

Subject: he just helped us didnt he? From: oh jim give it a rest To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 04:33:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: honest to god , jim. must you base the entirety of creation out of your ego?? the guy just answered chuck with what he was looking for. he didnt come over to trash you or anyone else. would you quit it already? not every thing is reciprocal tit for tat.

Subject: Who asked you? From: Jim To: oh jim give it a rest Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 09:39:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: honest to god , jim. must you base the entirety of creation out of your ego?? the guy just answered chuck with what he was looking for. he didnt come over to trash you or anyone else. would you quit it already? not every thing is reciprocal tit for tat. --- Listen, coward, you're not the one blocked, are you? So what's it to you?

Subject: I just said that to him on Symp From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 16:18:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just posted to CD on Symp: ''By the way I am thinking of blocking you from F7 until you unblock Jim from LG. I would also ask Chuck to block you from here. I really think Jim is entitled to see the slanderous posts Deb makes about him on LG. So how about it? Unblock Jim and I won't block you.'' Should we wait for his answer or just block him?

Subject: Give him a couple of hours, maybe From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 16:49:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Give him enough time to respond, perhaps. He might as well know why he's blocked if that's how he wants to play it.

Subject: Unrealistic expectations From: Peter Howie To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 04:44:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi all. I've been reflecting on the unrealistic expectations that are being generated at times by myself and others on this forum. That is the hope of an expectation that MJ is likely to do anything different from what he currently is doing now. I've been thinking how hard it is for me to cough up to simle human transgressions such as getting angry or losing my temper with the kids or another person. How hard it is to accept the times when I am simply mean or stingy or completely self absorbed to someone else's detriment. Anyway this is all a pre-amble to suggesting that for MJ to change his tune he would just about have to be a good a premies conceive him to be. He would have to be a very remarkable person. And he isn't that type of remarkable person. He probably will never be that type of remarkable person. What is remarkable is that I might have the hope that he will. I think it is a cruel and slightly masochistic idea to imagine that MJ will change his tune, become humble and apologise. It is about as unreal as imagining that he was god. Perhaps it is a vestigal hope from all those years of projecting good things onto him? Anyway - there is a good story in the front of the dale carnegie book 'How to win frineds and influence people' still the best book on communcation even after 70 years and a lot of competition. Anyway the story goes of a gangster who has just killed a policeman who interrupted his necking with a girlfriend. So there he is holed up, wounded, shots everywhere, hundreds of police - and he write a note in which he says 'I have a heart that wants to help others' or semething equally sentimental. Carnegie's point was that if a hardened criminal and murderer feels they have done no wrong we had all better get out of the blame game. Not that blame doesn't have its place but it is a good point. I've been working with people who function well, influence heaps of other people and who can be as blind and crappy as MJ is. Anyway these other people come around pretty quick. They don't take 30 years. Anyway these are semi formed thoughts and some of you may have some additional ideas. Peter howie Brisbane, Australia

Subject: This is a good thread From: Francesca To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 12:51:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Peter, You've been making some great contributions lately and starting some good threads! I don't always post but I've been reading some of it. Thanks and best wishes, Francesca

Subject: A wonderful point ! From: Loaf To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 11:01:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hello pete You say : for MJ to change his tune he would just about have to be a good a premies conceive him to be which is quite an exceptional point... expectations of M changing are delusional (IMHO) - but there is still immense value in holding a 'mirror up to nature' in order to help people 'de-throne' the internal idolised figure which years of programming and soft focus have implanted. I was thinking the other day about why M shows up for aspirant meetings and K sessions... apart from all the usual implications of needing to be worshipped and even a 'passion for knowledge' (irony intended) - It occurred to me that by implanting his face and presence at every possible opportunity.. he associates himself with tremendous feelings of gratitude which he can milk for the rest of his life. high status event (K session) + warm fuzzy feeling + M's face = gratitude = ££ cash $$ Its a simple and tangible equation. A friend of mine was at a K session with M a couple of years ago. He had no particular feeling about M until the K session.. when he was deeply touched that at one point (during technique no 1) he lowered his arms, and opened his eyes and M offered him some cushions. That simple act, with all the implications of 'master doesnt HAVE to do any of this' somehow made him feel that M was 'alright' and not after his money.... so he gave some.... and then some more... But (sorry to digress.. as soon as I get in the satsang chair I start ranting !)I agree that M cant change. What can happen is that people can re-assess their internal projected M... and actually that is the one that is the issue for me. The antics of PPSR are not of any importance ... save that they are of purient celebrity watching tabloid interest (healthy) and that the de-bunking of my relationship with a perfect but mythical Guru puts my entire relationship with humanity and with myself on a better footing. Heroes are not healthy... not when they stop people seeing the reality and the beauty of the relationships around them. A lot of the emotional displacement and aloof smugness and seperation of premies.. is Not actually down to the technique of K as I originally thought... in fact I think K makes you MORE sensitive..but its because Maharaji works as a phantom lover. By his presence he validates the Premie.. and the higher they build his throne, the more priviledged/blessed the premie can feel... ok so a fat short Indian man in wrong coloured shoes offers you a cushion... big deal ! PWSK, lets start taking maharaji for granted. Lets stop making a fuss of him and let him get on with it. Spreading K is not such a big deal... he just milks the gratitude tooo much because he knows that his future income depends on it. Points make Prizes....

Subject: Re: A wonderful point ! From: blondie To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 15:22:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Pete, I was begining to feel as much a non belonger as an ex as I was a premie.

Subject: Hi blondie From: Marianne To: blondie Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 17:49:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello there blondie. Your post touched me. You are a recent ex, aren't you? I think you'll find that most everyone here went through a lonely time in the weeks, months and possibly more, after leaving the cult behind. The importance of the forum (and of all of the Journeys posted on EPO) is to show that there are many ranges of experience and reaction to both involvement in the cult and and the process of extricating ourselves from it. Keep reading and you will find exes whose experiences are similar to your own. I hope you've found some exes near you or through email who can lend an understanding ear when you need it. A belated welcome to you. Look forward to more of your contributions. Marianne

Subject: Say, Peter... From: gerry To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 11:43:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Could you take a look at this link and tell me if you recognize any of these people as premies? Thanks. Is there a premie in the house? www.mbcconsultancy.com.au/who.htm

Subject: Re: Say, Peter... From: Livia To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 14:57:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Has this link been shown on F7 before? Because I've definitely seen it before, just a few weeks ago, but can't remember if it was here or on LG. If it was posted as a link on LG that pretty much tells you what you need to know. Livia

Subject: Re: Say, Peter... From: Australian Securities Commision To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 14:16:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Extracted from ASIC's database at 07:08:55 on 10/06/2002 Name M'S BUSINESS CONSULTANCY PTY LTD ACN 071 972 239 ABN 66 071 972 239 Type Australian Proprietary Company, Limited By Shares Registration Date 28/11/1995 Status Registered Locality of Registered Office South Melbourne VIC 3205 Jurisdiction Australian Securities & Investments Commission These are the documents most recently received by ASIC from this organisation. Page numbers are shown if processing is complete and the document is available for purchase. Received Number Pages Description 20/05/2002 017526707 42 309A Notification of Details of a Charge 04/02/2002 07197223L 3 316L (AR 2001) Annual Return - Proprietary Company 30/01/2001 07197223K 3 316L (AR 2000) Annual Return - Proprietary Company

Subject: Re: Say, Peter... From: Peter Howie To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 16:24:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thety don't ring any bells but I get why you are asking. Cheers Peter

Subject: Re: Say, Peter... From: Pemie Spotter To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 12:51:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All premies, although I dont know about Ray Cooper . Not heard of him.

Subject: So which one is Catweasel From: PatC To: Pemie Spotter Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 12:59:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Catweasel's Internet Protocol number traces directly to that website. Either he uses a computer there to post here or he uses their business internet service provider.

Subject: Re: So which one is Catweasel From: SNEAK To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 07:39:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: JEREMY COLLIER (JEZ). Ex uk premie. From the North of England now resident in Australia. Involved in Security since the mid to late seventies. Not too bright , rather thick skinned. Blindly loyal as are many of the security boys. Down to earth 'unspiritual type' , into sports more than any yogi antics. A real gameplayer.

Subject: Re: So which one is Catweasel From: SNOOK To: SNEAK Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 22:39:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: TONY RELLIAM (TON') Ex UK premie. Billiards enthusiast. Cheeky sense of humor and ultra competitive. Thinks (knows)he's a good looking chap. Favours redheads and British ale. Ribald humour and Italian food. Involved in boating and some sort of motor design. A real knave.

Subject: Is Jez into horse-racing? [nt] From: PatC To: SNEAK Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 09:54:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yes Patrick -tennis too From: Sneak To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 11:22:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Catweasel From: Peter Howie To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 16:49:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Most interesting. I had another further look at the whole site. I don't recognise anyone but then again last time I went near the joint I hardly recognised anyone - and some of them recognised me. This link to CW is most delightful and I wait with biated breath. Boy, what a cheesy name. Great if you can get away with it. Cheers and I'm off to watch Spider Man at the Golden Wing section of the movie theatre - you know - recliner chairs, served food at pre-determined time etc. I'll look in when I get back. Peter Howie

Subject: Golden Wing section? From: PatC To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 00:53:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How much does the Golden Wing section of the movie theatre cost? It sounds great but do they still play the sound as loud as they play it in the scum of the earth section?

Subject: Re: Golden Wing section? From: Peter Howie To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 04:26:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It costs $25 on weekends but you can get in on a standbye cost of $14 weekdays mostly mornings. They have two cinemas - one with 24 seats the other with 30. Only the latest movies. Sound is OK - I couldn't tell that it was too loud. The movie was great and I am such a sentimental clod that I cried quite a few times. They are also licensed. Hot food as well. I left with a very distended stomach. I also went on my own which is wonderfully decadent. My partner and I stopped going there because we ate so much and it costs $7 at our local - but such decadence. Ahhhhhhh! Cheers Peter

Subject: Re: So which one is Catweasel From: Pemie Spotter To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 15:03:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Must be the business owner wouldn't you say.

Subject: Re: So which one is Catweasel From: PS To: Pemie Spotter Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 15:22:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh and by the way don’t be fooled by that little ol’ web site, the folks there are all either commission only sales people or have a full time job and would not have done one hours worth of true consulting in their life. A bit of chest beating I’m afraid. But you have found the home of the cat and his & her friends.

Subject: Who's the boss? From: PatC To: PS Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 16:14:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Which one of those guys owns the business?

Subject: Re: Who's the boss? From: PPS To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 16:39:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Michael and Marna own it/run it.

Subject: Michael Nelthorpe? From: PatC To: PPS Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 00:56:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Others have said that CW is was Michael. Does CW's peculiar online persona match at all? Poor Pussy. It was only a matter of time before his cover was blown.

Subject: Re: Michael Nelthorpe? From: Ring In To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 01:11:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Michael has a history with the gee-gees. So with all the tipping CW's been indulging in it seems probable he's a contender. In fact even money on Michael.

Subject: On Second Thoughts....... From: Ring In To: Ring In Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 01:21:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....CW seems to me to be an amalgammation of various people. Either he's got people feeding him information or they're taking it in turns to post.

Subject: CW an amalgam of people From: PatC To: Ring In Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 10:00:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Recently CW has been fairly consistent but for the longest time it was like talking to Jekyll and Hyde - you never knew exactly which face he would show - nice or nasty. Also the actual writing styles would change drastically from boorish and full of typos to sane and legible within minutes. I always wondered if it was more than one premie. Seems like MBC may have a few Lone Ranger PWKs.

Subject: Re: CW an amalgam of people From: Peter Howie To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 13:51:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi there, I concluded that CW had a mental illness. His ealier posts - year or three ago - really indicated some interesting pathology - what I don't know. Another option was alcohol but that idea wasn't mine. I finally concluded like you and many others here that we were all fine sport for him. Now and again I could enter his strange world - his openness to salam and a few other seriously unbalanced people was quite touching. His writings on LG are positively positive compared to a few years ago. The idea of a pastiche is an interesting one - I'm not convinvec but it is very decent hypothesis. My interest waned and now I figure he will be revealed in the fullness of time. Unfortunately the picture is not nearly clear enough. I'm suspicious from it. Bugger! Now my curiosity is somwhat up again. Peter

Subject: CW claimed to know you, Peter From: PatC To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 15:52:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Didn't he seem to know a lot of details about your participation in some service project? Can you recall if Michael or Jeremy were involved. When I first encountered CW, he said he was a Brit living in Oz and was extremely nasty and vicious to me. Later he denied having said he was a Brit and his viciousness was not quite so psycho. It will all be revealed in the fullness of time. Hey, these guys are Hindus. Don't they believe in karma?

Subject: Re: CW did know me From: Peter Howie To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 16:23:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep he did know me. The dilemma from my point of view was that while he knew about Brisbane and a bizarre company set up to deal with too many premies that came to fast track MJ's palace(company called Cityscape) where we happily worked in conditions at times not unlike what happened at DECA, anyway while he knew about that he didn't know about my Sydney and early canberra life. Anyway he knew me here in Brisbane. He knew the others that worked with me. He seemed to live in the ashram yet at the same time not to live in the ashram. This happened because there were pseudo ashrams and there where ashrams where non-ashram premies lived due to service requirements. He knew me better than I knew him because ashram premies had a higher community profile - gave satsang more often, ponced around more often, acted like slaves more aften, ignored or seemed one up to community premies more often. Anyway the photo has stimulated my memories but I can't really nail it down. I've entered a more flexible state from seeing them. RE: Jerry or Michael: I can't recall who was whom. I've been stimulated by the name Michael and will let my unconscious chew on it for a while. If it is who I'm stimulated to consider it is then I'm no better off. All I can remember is that that person strongly resisted being dominated by anyone even MJ. He was quite a scary dude to a humble, celibate, meditating premie. But we also had a positive relationship which comes through at certain times in his posts to me. Cheers Peter

Subject: they're an ugly bunch From: janet To: Ring In Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 04:44:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm sorry, but the website is ugly, they're ugly, and cat's long history of wasting our time and attention on his superfluous crap is ugly. all in all: ugly== i wouldnt consult these people as to whether there was toilet paper stuck on the bottom of my shoe!

Subject: Finally, something we agree on. :C) [nt] From: PatC To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 15:55:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The unborn creed of Maharajism From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 07:58:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dunno about anyone else but I am glad that I find the world a sane, happy place, that I was born, I live in lightness and don't have tears running down my cheeks. It seems that some premies feel the need to feel the opposite. I guess this is prompted by Maharaji constantly prattling on about thirst, hunger, the evils of the mind, maya and him being the 'unique' solution to these ailments. Thanks for the advice Maharaji - I walked! Found on ELK Diana Sajovec: Longing birth From Tolmin, Slovenia Oh my wellspring, you're giving me my love, my dearest, my beloved. When day after day, I'm surrounded, with this crazy sad world, then my longing birth, to the light in my darkness, to the voice in my silence, shines and whispers to me. Oh thank you, for being with me, for your guiding light, for your caressing whisper, and for my grateful tear, which slides down my cheek. Oh how could I rejoice, within myself, without you?

Subject: Re: The unborn creed of Maharajism From: Cynthia To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 10:27:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, Oh how could I rejoice, within myself, without you? I galls me that with all the revisionism that's gone on and Maharji's denial of ever saying, implying, etc., that he was the living lord of the universe and greater than GOD, that ELK publishes this stuff which confirms, for me, anyway, that some premies do in fact believe in Prem Rawat's divinity. They can't see the trap but it's clearly there right in those few words. Cynthia

Subject: The filter of maharajism From: la-ex To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 07:29:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK, I know he's the FILAMENT these days, but he also used to talk about the 'filter', remember....some people strain out all the good, and see only the bad, some people strain out the bad, and see only the good....something about coffee, something about tea, I don't know, how did we ever believe that drivel and think it was wise?...beats me...I guess what baffles me even more is how any middle aged person could ever go and hear any of that stuff today and get anything out of it, but I'm digressing here... What's interesting to me about these ELK droppings, is that if outrageous stuff is said about m in a positive way (even to the point of proclaiming him LORD, which he denies, but then doesn't deny, but then does....go figure...)it's included and they will say 'that's just how this particular person feels about m'.....we're just posting what one particular person happens to feel about m.... However, if anyone were to put anything negative about m,or contradictory, and could even prove it by referring to his own quotes, do you think it would ever make it to ELK? Funny how the FILTER works, isn't it? Maybe he should call himself the FILTERMENT from now on...

Subject: Revising the past From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 07:00:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder how pwks currently feel about their heartfelt contributions being used to restore archive material that largely shows Maharaji proclaiming himself to be The Lord Incarnate or better? Surely they must know that there is an iceball in hell's chance of them ever seeing this stuff again. Unless in the revisionist style of 'Passages'. Perhaps current followers believe they are doing Service for future historians in understanding late twenty/early 21st century bankrupt belief systems? Much like the discovery of the Nag Hammadi scriptures related to Gnosticism. Lets see - perhaps the 'Prem Rawat archives of Maharajism'. Just wondering Warmly, Thorin Dead, never to be seen again scrolls www.visionsinternational.org/archive.html

Subject: Re: Revising the past From: Bolly Shri To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 13:21:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Old Lordy may be missing a trick here. As he gazes past the inner circle of followers he will see that retro is highly marketable. My teenage daughter and her cohorts wear the clothes, listen to the music etc of the era m first graced us with his presence. They have more drugs, drink etc. so it might take a while before they start looking on Indian mysticism as a seam worth mining. They won't want a 'self knowledge tutor' in a corporate package. They'll be looking for the technicolor version with dancing gods in satins and silks. So before he shoves all that memorabilia into the outer reaches of room 101 the marketing men should do a little research. LOL Bolly

Subject: restoration has begun... From: Even though To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 07:39:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...in the last year 22 original masters (including some events and two interviews from 1971) had already deteriorated and are lost forever. HHMMMMMM!! Which interviews, I wonder. Could it be the ones where Prem Rawat discusses the fact that he is greater than god? or the one where he says that he is the incarnation of God? LLLLOOOOOOOSSSSSSEEER We're not buyin' that crap, asshole

Subject: Re: Revising the past From: PatD To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 17:09:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I notice that they're heartbroken over the loss to natural causes of a film made in 1971. That's got to be the one featuring the 'Rainbow Gypsies',a hippie dance troupe caught in true underground movie style with their bollocks hanging out of their loin cloths,gyrating at the feet of the 13yr old incarnation. You ever see that one Thorin? I think it might've been pulled in '73/4.

Subject: Yo England !!!!!!!!! From: Jeff Hirst To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 06:45:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We did it again......

Subject: Re: Yo England !!!!!!!!! From: Ian To: Jeff Hirst Date Posted: Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 11:16:07 (PDT) Email Address: ian.johnson33@ntlworld.com Message: yea who's the perfect master now???