Subject: Mini Latvian report From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 08:25:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bolly, Thorin and me met up for a mini Latvian the other day, which was brilliant. We had a great lunch and talked and talked for hours. Thorin is just as you'd all imagine - tall, dashing, handsome, witty, erudite... Actually it was great. (And Thorin really is handsome - age has not withered him!) The instant camaraderie from having read each other so often on the forum - I'd thoroughly recommend it to anyone contemplating meeting up with forum regulars. Lots of food for thought, too - subjects raised which haven't necessarily been discussed in great detail here, and subjects too deep to be properly covered even in the several hours we spent in each others' company. Actually one thing we all felt was how refreshing it was to be able to discuss all this openly, in real time, face to face. It made us realise just how little of one's true feelings were ever really discussed (openly) during the years of cult involvement. That little phrase 'leave no room for doubt in your mind' forces premies into an invidious postion where they feel that to express any 'doubt' (I'd now prefer to call it 'true discernment') to one another is not only the betrayal of a commandment but holds the added danger of 'corrupting' your friend. So you keep quiet and don't express things until you're not even sure if you feel them or not - a sort of dissembling, and psychologically very unhealthy. It's one of the factors that tends to keep cults going. So to be able to say all the things we said was refreshing in the extreme, and felt wonderfully healthy, open and free. To AV and Anthony and anybody else who wants to join us next time - in a few months maybe? Please try and make it; it's definitely worth it! Love to all, Livia

Subject: Trying to evaluate PPs attendance From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 01:51:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm having an email conversation with someone who'd like to have some details. Here's what I've answered him/her. Any comments ? +++++++++ Hello !! >I was wondering about something. Do you have any idea just how many premies are still attached to Prem Pal Singh? In Western countries: I'd say somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 persons are still more or less interested by PPS in Europe, same figures for the US (very likely only half of it), and a few hundreds, maybe a bit more, here and there in other areas. These figures include 70-80% of people who would only show up when PPS comes in their city. I guess you should consider that only 20% of the global figures are firm believers and regularly come to events (watch videos, financially participate etc). In India and Nepal: The programs' attendance has also shrinked during the last decades. There were definitely over 100,000 attendees in the 70s for big events, and maybe only half of it or less these days in India. Nepal: maybe 10,000-20,000 From what I understand of the mentality in India (and Nepal), most of these people go from one guru to the next guru every year, and it's very likely that he has only a few thousands that he managed to keep in the fold there. The area of Kanpur seems to be one of the most 'active' these days, for some reason I don't know. > And do you have any idea how many ex-premies there are? We've figured out that about 100,000 persons have been initiatiated in Europe in the past 30 years, and also 100,000 in the US during the same period of time. Maybe he's initiated a few 100,000 in India and Nepal during the same period of time, usually between 10,000 and 20,000 every year in the past 10-15 years. > How many would you say are in your larger circle? You make your calculations. It's difficult to know where people are at. I've witnessed myself that many people who come to attend programs mainly come for social reasons, nostalgia, feel reassurate when they can't really make a break from their belief, shake hands etc Same thing for ex-premies: most people leave for good and don't want to be associated anymore with premies or ex-premies. There is not much left of the glorious past !! Except for the TV channels he managed to set, his broadcasting company, his marble 'residences', hundreds of luxury cars, his yacht, his private jet and immense wealth ! Cheers Jean-Michel

Subject: A rough rule of thumb From: PatD To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 07:40:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A quick float down memory lane gives me 30 names of people I knew/know well enough to be sure of their allegiance. 7 left as hard on anti-M monmots 21 drifted away without really talking about it 2 remain & will probably be at today's toefest(both of them have stopped giving donations) Assuming 40,000 initiates in the UK,if I've done my sums right that suggests just under 3000 left here,not many of whom are still prepared to put their hands in their pockets. Unscientific.....but a reasonable guess which could even be a touch on the high side.

Subject: One thing's for sure From: Jean-Michel To: Quiet! Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 02:54:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is what's in this report: EV Prop report/Europe not so much outdated IMO.

Subject: Paypal kept telling EV organizers: From: anon To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 12:59:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He used to tell us at closed door meetings: r.e. propagation and participation: 'America is falling off the map.' -- Paypal Rawrat And that was back in the 1990s!! The bogus cult numbers are heavily padded with the same small groups of the same people counted at each program, every week, and then tabulated monthly. In India, the numbers at outdoor events are 'guesstimates' of passersby, the curious, and the superstitious flock of sheep. It should come as no surprise that some of the tabulators by day are also Arthur Anderson - Enron type creative accountants. Cooking the numbers, and probably cooking the books. Yes, the cult is falling off the map...

Subject: The cult is over From: Cal To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 09:43:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you call the 'information line' in Northern California USA, (510-464-3081), which is advertised on the EV and ELK websites, the recording says that there are NO MORE video or satellite programs available in Northern California, so if you are 'interested' try calling back some other time and, otherwise, tough shit! They do advertise going to Australia, but of course I don't think non-PWKs are even allowed in. So much for speading knowledge to anyone interested. What a joke. The Maharaji cult is SO OVER, it doesn't even pretend to do propagation anymore. No wonder the premies/students/PWKs are depressed and don't want to talk about it. Who would?

Subject: Open letter to 'John Francs' From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 00:09:05 (PDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: John, You sent the following to the EPO mailbox, where you questioned whether I would have the 'guts' to publish it. I then tried, from three different email addresses, to send the reply I repeat below, thanking you for your mail and inviting you to discuss these issues further. All three replies were rejected saying that your address was not accepting mail from those addresses. As there is no way you could have known all three addresses, it is clear to me that you did not wish to read any replies. If this is true, it is somewhat hypocritical to talk of having 'guts'. If your inability to receive replies is an honest mistake, then I am still open for an email discussion - get in touch. Anyway, here's your mail:- --- Johnfrancs@aol.com wrote: > I am sickened by your expressions of grievances > against Maharaji. > I have know him personally for 30 years and he has > alway been helpful and > kind to me. > I have never asked him for anything because he said > and still says that what > you are looking for is within you. This I know to > be absolutely true. I > found my own joy and happiness within me and > therefore I don't ask for > anything from anyone. > > Maharaji's private life is his own affair. > You have published the blue-prints of his house. If > you did that to me and > put in danger my family and my children, I would be > extremely unhappy and > would be forced to take some action to protect > myself and family. > You seem to be no better than terrorists. Is this > what you are? Is this > what you want to be? > What gives you the right to do such a heinous act? > If it was up to me I'd have you arrested. > > > your grievances must be about feelings you have > within yourselves and out > of ignorance you appear to be lashing out at someone > you accuse of being the > cause of your pain. > This is a cowardly thing to do. Nobody is causing > you pain except > yourselves. Please recognize that, and be brave and > deal with it. > Then leave the rest of us alone to enjoy in peace > what we want to enjoy. > Perhaps you really believe we are all fools. When I > say we, I mean all those > who enjoy listening to Maharaji and practising the > techniques of > self-knowledge. How insulting it is to us. > You are the fools. Can't you see, you are spending > all your time focusing on > Maharaji, thinking about him, talking about him, > writing about him, spending > time on the internet etc etc. > It's a kind of obsession. > You would be better off being obsessed with finding > feelings of peace and > love inside of yourselves. > > > Get yourselves lives. Be for something. > > I would like to know about your private lives. > Neville seems to be very well > set up with his place etc. > John Mcgregor.....who is he. Someone whose Ego got > too big by the sounds of > it. > Get help! But please leave the rest of us > alone. > > Lets see if you've got the guts to publish this > without changing it to > somehow support your obsessional hatred of Maharaji. > > Just for your information: As far as I am > concerned, in all the 30 years I > have know him, Maharji has never done anything to > break the bond of trust and > friendship and love we share. > My reply follows:- John, Thank you for your honest expression of your emotions regarding the EPO website. I do appreciate the time you took to do that. I was surprised you apparently weren't willing to receive a reply, but hopefully you will read this. Now that we have started this exchange, perhaps you could put your emotions to one side for a moment and rationally respond to the grievances published on the website. I have repeatedly tried to get Maharaji and Elan Vital to correct any inaccuracies on the site but they have failed to do so. I'm sure you will agree if you reread the allegations that they are quite serious, and with your long personal aquaintance with Mr. Rawat, I'm sure what you say will be of value. In particular, I have a collection of tapes from the late 70's where Maharaji repeatedly demanded complete devotion to him personally. I of course believed him but I wonder what your view was? I look forward to continuing this exchange. John Brauns (address available on request, or by doing a 'Whois' on the website domain name)

Subject: JHB, it's just another hit and run driver NT From: Jethro To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 01:49:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: How deep is my love? From: Jethro To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 20:33:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have just had a sort of exchange with 'Sam' over on LG. It turns out that this person is the person brought me to m&k. It also turns out, from what he has said, that he has been present on these forums for some time and I would summize that he has also posted, under various aliases, probably one of Roupell's or catweazel's(they are all 'chums'). This Sam is also married to Lee Marges, the Australian honcho/instructor who told me about the 'fuck you video' maharaji made. I have to say that I feel really shocked and disappointed that this person was not willing to communicate to me earlier. I find it really creepy that he could just watch me posting all this time without any response. I had always hoped that he wasn't really cultified,but now I am convinced and feel like I have just lost someone really close......only , as he says, I lost him years ago. Yes Sam, I am heart-broken. I should have taken note of your state of mind all those years ago when you fucked with my head on that early acid trip. I have no intention of going into any character assasination, this has to do with the exiting process. When I read his post, basically telling me that 'I chose to walk', I remembered what it takes to be a premie in that the type of one-pointedness prem really wants, I remember that feeling of being totally focused on Him. It can make you feel really really good(high?), I remember that...but given the chance over again I would still choose to 'walk' and be with the rest of the human race. I am happy to be in the world AND of it. I am also glad that I CAN be hurt again. Anyway Sam, thanks for responding.I will now move on from the hope of restoring our friendship. Enjoy your life with Prem. I will sorely miss the 'who I thought you were'. Love Jethro

Subject: Re: How deep is my love? From: Livia To: Jethro Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 13:32:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jethro, I've just had a look at your thread with Sam......hmmm, not nice. This seems to be the result of being in a cult and having friends who are fellow cult members - are they your friend because they just genuinely like you, or is there a large element of co-cultdom? It seems to depend on the level of fundamentalism involved. A fundamentalist cult member will find it very difficult if not impossible to continue relations with someone who has left the cult. I think this is probably true of all cults. In the Jehovah's Witnesses, this breaking off of relations with ex cult members is even built into their constitution, so to speak - it's truly horrible. In my home town there are quite a few Jehovah's Witnesses (I'll call them JW's.) Strangely, the group here seem to be quite 'hip' - they wear fashionable clothes, like good music and possibly all come from 'alternative' backgrounds. I've come across quite a few of them over the years and in a lot of ways they are quite like premies. Every now and then, someone will leave and the whole cult turns against them, completely ignoring them and treating them as if they never existed. Sadly, the ex JW's take it in their stride because they already know it will happen. It must make for very strange dynamics in their friendships. Then if the ex JW returns, it's all as if it never happened. With premies I do think it varies. I've told a friend I'm no longer a devotee of M and after initial shock she has decided it shouldn't affect our friendship, and it hasn't. But with others I'm not so sure this would happen. Premies reading this who feel they would condemn their friends for walking away should think long and hard about the true meaning of friendship. After all, what are you - premies first and then human beings? Or human beings first? If you don't consider yourself a human being first and foremost, then think long and hard. Please. And Jethro, I do think it's basically fear that makes some premies condemn ex-premies. And fundamentalism stems from fear after all. Love to you, Livia

Subject: Peanut Butter cups anyone? From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 13:54:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi I was testing the anyboards forum to see if MP3 files can be uploaded. It can! Click on the above link for some pretty amazing stuff. Including Maharaji saying, in his own words, that he is God. Thorin Premies are a burden to Maharaji www.anyboard.net/soc/culture/symposium/posts/91.html

Subject: His generosity with our money knew no bounds ... From: cq To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 11:55:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's what 'God' said: 'So it's like, there's that fine line. To me - we have to be missionaries, because that's what we are. We have to be freelance volunteers. We don't have to ask anything of this organisation. This organisation will ask a lot of us, and that's what we have to be prepared to give - all the way. You can do your service, that is fine. I am married, you know, it's not like I am against marriage. But the point is - are you being a burden? If you are being a burden, then gracefully - step aside. And you can, you can do more in your community, as an individual premie, than maybe you can even do as a co-ordinator if you wanted to, because nothing is impossible. But if any way you are a burden, step aside. Now that's the whole thing - a lot of people would like to ... y'know - get paid, and it's just like - it's such a tricky situation. And doing things like that - I'm just individually taking care of it. And I'm dealing with every problem as individual (sic) as possible. I'm not trying to bear a flat line on that. But that is the way I have to reason things. Everybody here is a volunteer. Now you look for two dollars and fifty cents a week from Divine Light Mission - well this is missionary money. This is ... this is ... this money that comes in is for God's purpose, it's for Guru Maharaji's purpose, it's for propogation purpose. And it gets wasted on some peanut butter cups, y'know, it's just not worth it. And that's the way I look at it. But in some cases, it's almost like - you have to do it. Where you have to pay a certain person this much amount. Certain cases - it's just ridiculous, y'know. Certain cases you can get by and ... you're still OK.' Verbatim transcription of Maharaji's address at the Portland Co-ordinator conference of 1977. transcription here www.anyboard.net/soc/culture/symposium/posts/98.html

Subject: Havng listened to it From: Sir Dave To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 13:25:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji sounds like a cheap fraud. God? - ha ha ha! How did I ever get hooked into all that?

Subject: Re: His generosity with our money ... From: PatD To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 12:42:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the transcription,as we're still running steam powered computers here in Warwickshire. Strip out the 'Godhead giving direction' notions(couldn't be done at the time)& you're left with the blatant 2 bit hustler & bully boy. 'So it's like, there's that fine line. Never an explanation as to how to stay on the right side of it. But if any way you are a burden, step aside. Never an explanation of what being a burden means. And it gets wasted on some peanut butter cups, y'know, it's just not worth it. And that's the way I look at it. Finally the truth,'it's all mine because that's the deal,I'm the master & you're the slaves'. What a cockroach,no wonder he wanted all this stuff burnt.

Subject: Re: His generosity with our money ... From: cq To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 12:57:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: should I mention that he says: 'a lot of people would like to ... y'know - get paid' then he quibbles about the princely sum of 2 dollars 50 cents a WEEK! If ever there was a MahaRADGY, then Prem Pal Rawat HAS to be the 'KING' - of CHEAPSKATES! (Mind you, in his own mind, he still thinks he's cooler than Frosty the Snowman.)

Subject: cheers, worked fine NT From: jethro To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 20:05:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Am I hearing things? From: Sir Dave To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 19:57:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did the guy asking the question of Maha really say he had one and a half children? Actually this is just the usual Maha money talk. He was refering to the burden being premies who were being paid (as community co-ordinators) when the money could be going to him. It must have been so sad for him to have seen that money going to someone else.

Subject: You heard what he said, Dave From: cq To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 12:36:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess by saying that he had 'one and a half children' the premie who asked the question meant to imply that he'd had one child and the other was 'on the way'. But you guessed that? As for the 'usual Maha money talk' - well, yes, it was usual for us premies back in the 70s to think that any money spent on anyone but the Guru was wasted. But I guess that was part and parcel of the whole 'devotion and surrender' trip we'd bought into. If any 'true' premie had access to ... financial resources (i.e. money) - it wouldn't have been considered to be their money any more, had they obeyed Maharaji's agya and joined the ashram. And he talks about begrudging $2.50 a week for peanut butter??? Jeez, what a skinflint! IMO, history will record that the Maha simply had youth, inexperience, and a 'nothing to lose' mentality' on his side when he embarked on fleecing us, in the 'name of the Lord'. Suckers we were, no doubt. Innocent, wishful, gullible, mostly honest (if you don't look to closely at the members of his inner sanctum) - yup, all of that, but suckers we (the more honest ones) were at heart. The puzzle is how he still manages to pull the wool over the eyes of his new converts - despite his attempts to burn the books about his past. And despite the attempts of EPO and the various forums to awaken the fledgling suckers that are about to find themselves on the road to dependency on this 'non'-guru! It's a thankless task, ain't it?

Subject: I don't think he is From: Sir Dave To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 13:19:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think Maha is pulling the wool over any new converts eyes. He's hardly getting any new converts in the west at all these days and the ones he does get leave the fold after a short while. I mean, there's only so many times you can watch a video of the same guy saying the same thing and there's only so many knowledge reviews you can sit through hearing the same techniques given, yet again.

Subject: Vancouver 1977 Co-ordinator? From: Thorin To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 13:08:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What I would be really interested in knowing is who the Vancouver (acting) co-ordinator was in 1977 who had, what Maharaji describes, as a 'problem'. Also what this guy actually thought of how Maharaji dealt with his 'problem' - apparantly via Mike Dettmers. Where is Jim when we need information he is likely to know :) Thorin

Subject: Re: Peanut Butter cups anyone? From: Tim G To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 16:12:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin I got the message 'couldn't open file as data was in a bad or damaged format' regards Tim

Subject: Thanks Thorin From: Nottm Bunny To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 16:00:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I dont think I will throw away all of those seventies tapes just yet............... Bunny

Subject: from peanut butter cups to gulfstreams From: Brian Smith To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 15:42:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: multi million dollar yachts, homes, cars, helicopters and other luxurious toys. The peanut butter cup $2.50 cent a week monologue was circa 1977, Maharaji/aka prem rawat economics have changed in a very big way since then

Subject: Re: Peanut Butter cups anyone? From: NikW To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 14:27:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thorin, Thanks (I think) it certainly worked, very weird experience listening to THAT voice after, for me, 24 years. Not too sure I want to repeat it. But I like the trick of just chopping a file extension off to make something work. Nik

Subject: 'Smoke and Mirrors' is Satguru(BS#2) From: La-ex To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 12:52:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A follow up to BS with a Buzz.... It struck me today after attending a Unitarian church service in which the minister gave a wonderful talk on the varieties of religious/spiritual experience, how utterly vapid and bankrupt the M/K trip is..... First of all, the minister talked about the literally hundreds or maybe thousands of 'paths' to be found worldwide, each having given some group of people an 'experience' at one time or another.....obviously no one holds an exclusive patent on 'inner experiences', and these experiences cannot be measured, qualified or verified by anyone other than the subjectve viewpoint of the individual. Second, the pursuit of 'an experence' without an ethical framework in ones life can lead to disastrous results....(anyone we know?) Third,the person 'preaching' must be doing the 'practicing', or how else do they even know it's possible for others? (I wonder how many days in m's life he has practiced for an hour or more?) Fourth, in the realm of 'inner experience', there are literally hundreds of different types of 'experiences' that people have had and tried to describe, all of them different, and sometimes very unalike in nature... Fifth, if ones inner spiritual life is not lived, shared and brought out into the 'world', via some sort of service to humanity, it becomes narrow, introverted and ultimately inconsequential...(sound familiar?) If it is not 'challenged' in the outside world, how will it survive? There are more of these points to be made, but at some point I realized that M's whole trip is so much 'smoke and mirrors'... Yes, we used to think that 'peace and bliss is satguru', but it now seems closer to 'smoke and mirrors is satguru' (master).... The entire knowledge trip is based on M, and when M is exposed for the fraud that he is,it gets very difficult to keep it going.... In fact, the only way it can keep going is for M to lie more and more as he engages in denial and evasion, and for the premies to 'look the other way' and 'sweep it under the carpet' more and more in order to keep the dysfunctional game alive... So we now have 'Lie and Deny' from the master and 'Sweep or Weep' from the student.... But the stage presence goes on, and maharaji can still get away with one thing: He still plays the 'warm fuzzy' stage persona, and premies still like to lap it up. It's good for g-business.(guru-business) It keeps the customer satisfied by keeping the myth alive(along with a buzz for reinforcer), and keeps the customer coming back for more....(not so much different than rats, cheese and a cage...) The master gets more empowered(and wealthier) in his role as provider of 'that experience', and the customer gets more entrenched as unworthy, but eternally greatful 'recipient' (beggar).... It all rests on a myth, with a sometimes powerful group experience, and carefully planned and polished, but never questioned or examined, stage act..... When premies finally see through the man, the myth and the act, they will realize that all of the wonderful so called 'mystical experiences' that they have read about and wanted are available to anyone, and probably have been for as long as people have been around.....in fact, I have had more 'peak' experieces since I gave up the M/K treadmill/ratrace, and a better quality of life to be sure.... Although I started out 30 years ago in search of these experiences with M at center stage, it is now quite clear that he is a detriment to anyone who wants to fully live, love and grow to their fullest potential. I believe that he has known this for most of those past 30 years, but due to greed, deception, lust for power, personal addictions and lack of any authority figure in his life to question him, he has continued to deceive premies and the few aspirants who remain......

Subject: Shouldn't it be 'pissed and blitzed is Satguru?' From: gerry To: La-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 15:33:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent post. La-Ex. Sorry about the lousy joke...

Subject: Tomorrow is Brighton.. From: Anthony To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 09:35:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Having overcome the urge to cancel out, I will be going to Brighton tomorrow. Anyone who was at Nottingham last summer will be aware of how the agenda was, in fact, formulated by the revelations of EPO. How else could one understand the violations of history registered in the 30 year retrospective 'Passages'? Maharaji's subsequent statement on the Elan Vital website that he never said he would bring peace to the world? Also, Glen Whittaker's immediately following desperately cack-handed attempt on the Elan Vital website to revise premie history to whitewash out anyone from pre-1980? 'Never in the annals of religious revisionism was so much asked from so decent a follower by so unscrupulous a Master?' Will I be the only one to assess Maharaji's discourse as an attempt to answer his critics? In particular, will he address the following: That, instead of hedging with rubbish that values don't count because they are culture-bound, a true Master will always endorse the simplest all-embracing value statement to 'Love God with all of our heart, soul and mind, and our brother as ourself?' And also, finally, make clear that the human mind is not the enemy? In other words, differentiate between the true gifts of objective reason and personal conscience, and merely mind on over-drive which is the problem. In facing up to these points, he might win back some of his questioning congregation. Maybe it's too far gone.. I'll wait and see. I'll certainly shake hands, however, with any of you guys I see there. Best wishes to all, Anthony

Subject: Re: Tomorrow is Brighton.. From: Bolly To: Anthony Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 07:38:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anthony Sorry you couldn't get to the mini Latvia, next time I trust we'll see you. Thanks for going to Brighton today I will be unable to attend as I have to listen to some paint drying. Only Joking it's dry already, but I am not up to makng the trip due to other commitments. Enjoy the presence and remember to breathe, Love Bolly PS 250 miles from here puts you up north or summat, look forward to hearing of your blisssfull day

Subject: Re: Tomorrow is Brighton.. From: AV To: Anthony Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 14:17:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your clear post, let me know how it goes; I went to Nottm, I must have missed PASSAGES. I particularly liked your bit about mind on overdrive , bit more humane than 'the evil one upstairs'. AV

Subject: The Elusive Blondes From: Anthony To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 08:57:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been following EPO and Forum 7 (with a great deal of admiration) seriously since the beginning of this year. One point I've never solved, however, is the question of Maharaji and the blondes. In his depositions, Michael Dettmers narrates arranging premie women to meet Maharaji in hotels after Events. However, he has said in his phone conversation with Mike Finch's friend: 'Any other weaknesses? 'Apparently for blondes!' It's apparently general coinage here that Maharaji has indulged in sexual misbehaviour with a series of blondes. As this is a serious allegation, could I therefore ask the following: 1) Why none of the said victims has come forward with a deposition? 2) Can anyone supply an instance of the same happening, either directly, or as an anecdote from a known source? I realise that the consequences of having experienced such a possible violation could be extremely traumatic. However, the lack of substantiation of this bothers me quite greatly. Can anybody now furnish direct evidence of this, or anecdotal evidence from persons they know to substantiate this? Somewhat worried, Anthony

Subject: Blonde, Brunette, Auburn... From: Cynthia To: Anthony Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 10:47:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Does it really make much difference what color the hair was? I know we've referred to these women as 'the blondes' a lot, me too. Now it sounds demeaning to me. Especially when you click on a any joke page in the internet universe and they have a section for blonde jokes. Yes, I love those jokes, too, but maybe if our reference to them didn't have this 'blonde' slant when talking about them one of them might talk about their experience. I personally don't care about Rowat's gear or his performances. I look at the whole thing as a power and exploitation situation and hope these women, if ever they came here to post, would feel comfortable to discuss their feelings (and not feel compelled to give the dirty details) without being called 'the blonde,' or someone who fucked Maharaji. Think about it...if it were you...how would you feel reading this thread? :):) Cynthia

Subject: Some evidence for you From: JHB To: Anthony Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 15:32:22 (PDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: Anthony (and Carlos), The brother of one of the women Maharaji took advantage of wrote to me as webmaster, and confirmed the story previously published by a third party on the forum. I tried with appropriate sensitivity to get him to persuade her to tell her story, but understandably, she was unwilling to do so. To me, it is remarkable than any of Jagdeo's victims have spoken out, and it would be equally remarkable if any of the 'blondes' spoke out in public. Dettmers has proved to me that he is an honorable man, and has potentially damaged his own professional reputation by speaking out. His other allegations which have been confirmed by Donner and Mishler are damaging enough, and no one is denying the many times confirmed account of Maharaji's long standing affair with Monica. What possible reason could Dettmers have for lying? John.

Subject: Re: Some evidence for you From: Peter Howie To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 02:08:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another aspect, On this forum we have had people who have been fucked over by Mj but no-one so far as I know that has actually fucked him. Now I put this forward with mild trepidation - but I am aware of a rather peurile facination with the subject - what this would mean is that I would want to know - even if I never asked - what he was like - does he have a big dick, did he perform well, was he a looser etc. Now I'm not really interested - but anyone who posted as per this discussion would be open to questions of that sort. It would tap into the desire to humiliate and degrade MJ. If he was a looser in bed as well as in other ways all the better. Anyway - my two bobs worth. Peter Howie Brisbane, AUSTRALIA

Subject: Re: Some evidence for you From: gossip mongerer To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 04:05:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Apparently the reports were of the unfavourable variety. Hope that answers your question

Subject: I don't even want to think about it... [nt] From: Neville To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 02:45:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The Elusive Blondes From: Carlos - To Anthony To: Anthony Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 13:28:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A deposition is a formal statement, transcribed or videoed or taped, given under penalty of perjury, with an attorney asking questions that the person being deposed responds to. None of the assertions on EPO are anything like that. What you probably meant was 'depositions'. Except that those, too, are given under penalty of perjury, which nothing on EPO is. So assertions, or accusations, or perhaps rumors or gossip might be more accurate terms for you to use.

Subject: Re: The Elusive Blondes From: AJW To: Anthony Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 09:17:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anthony, I reckon any elusive blondes, who have been screwed by the Captain, are entitled to their anonymity, unless they choose to go public for reasons of their own. Why humiliate them further? Dr Anth.

Subject: Re: The Elusive Blondes From: Carlos - To Anth To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 13:35:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree that if anyone who was a one night stand of M's, or had a longer sexual relationship with him before or after his marriage doesn't want to come forward they should not be pressured. But when A and Susan found the courage to come forward about Jagdeo, which I think would probablt require more guts to do, people like me are going to take the very absense of coroberation of Dettmer's claims to have been a panderer for M as an indication that he is probably lying about that, which makes his other unsubstantiated claims more questionable than they otherwise might be.

Subject: Re: The Elusive Blondes From: AJW To: Carlos - To Anth Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 06:01:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, First, I don't doubt Michael Dettmers' integrity. What reason do you have to do so? What reason does he have to lie? What evidence do you have to show that he is lying? Do you know him personally? Has Rawat come forward to deny anything Michael has said? Why not? What upsets you so much about what Michael told us? When somebody tells you something, do you not believe what they say unless it is confirmed by a second witness? What's the problem here pal? Anth the immaterial witness.

Subject: Good-bye Carlos From: gerry To: Carlos - To Anth Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 15:02:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Carlos, you call Mike Dettmers a liar? You're the biggest liar and cult apologist to pass this page in quite some time. Here we have Michael Dettmers, making statements in public which would be libelous if untrue, and would cause Michael plenty of trouble with nothing to gain in return. It doesn't even make sense for him to be lying. His life is transparent, he is responsible and accountable yet you are making a judgement on his honesty based on what? You, on the other hand, make this ridiulous claim about seeing Maharaji as a "ball of light" for all four days of Millenium 73. I say horseshit. You are either psychotic or lying. Or both. In any case you are not anyone to be judging Mike Dettmers. What do we know about you? Nothing other than you are a cult member and your life is a wreck on almost all fronts. Compare that with Dettmers. You come out way, way short, Garble. You've worn out your welcome. Beat it. You're blocked, pal. And if you want to talk with me about this, tell your buddy at Life's Grate to unblock me...

Subject: Re: The Elusive Blondes From: Livia To: Carlos - To Anth Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 14:25:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A few months ago on this forum, I remember one of the regular posters saying they were personally acquainted with one of these blondes. Apparently this woman had been very upset because the morning after the night in question ahe was effectively ignored by Maharaji. The regular poster tried to persuade this woman to post, but she didn't want to. Either this poster made it up, or they didn't. I can't remember if it was a poster who still posts here - some posters drift away when they feel they have settled in their minds the issues they wish to settle. I'm not of the opinion that exes are in the habit of coming here and making things up, although of course there's always the possibility I could be completely wrong. I just somehow doubt it, firstly because there have been so many instances of further substantiation of stories that originally seemed unbelievable, and also because it seems to me that for the most part, the people here are in the business of talking about what really happened, rather than the official version of events. Why are you of the opinion, Anthony, that the whole thing might be a fabrication? It reminds me of CPG wanting concrete proof of the road accident in India and Jagdeo's misdemeanours. Livia

Subject: To Livia From: Anthony To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 00:20:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Livia, I wasn't suggesting anything was a fabrication, only saying I'd never found any evidence particularly relating to blondes. Now you've furnished me with some, which is quite convincing. I have no problem at all accepting what you say. Thanks for telling me. Anthony

Subject: Re: To Anthony From: Livia To: Anthony Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 08:08:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anthony, thanks for your response. I just found it slightly odd that you should be suspicious, that was all. Maybe I'm too quick to believe reports, but I remember once hearing something about a politician - it was second-hand info, unsubstantiated etc, but had the ring of reality to it - to me. I mentioned it to a couple of friends and they found it hard to believe. Years later it all came out officially and turned out to be just as I had heard it. As someone said above, Dettmers' reports just seem to have the ring of truth about them; why should he lie? He stood to lose a hell of a lot of friends by coming out with what he did - but he has stood by it and there has been no official denial of it from anyone, and no attempts to sue. I think we just believed that M was superhuman and had impeccable integrity for just a bit too long. Best to you, Livia

Subject: politicians From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 09:25:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia re the second-hand story about a politician. Might this be the story about two Tory cabinet members? Er when they were in power that is? xoxo Thorin

Subject: Re: politicians From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 13:08:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin! It was about Michael Portillo! And seriously, no one believed me at the time. And it was also about John Major and the catering manager Claire Latimer - and nobody believed that either. People still don't. Livia

Subject: July 19 1966 From: bill To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 19:26:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is the date all those glorious years ago when shri hens fell in the shower, hit his head, and died. Prem, the son who thought he was god, I mean yes he thought he was god, but first thought his dad was god, views july 19 as a big day in his life. No telling what he thinks this year, but he does notice the day and gives it at least a passing thought. It probably is the day of the year when he has in the past reflected on how his own lordship is proceeding. Put on the crown, slipped into a mala naked, cognac in hand, flute in the other, 'dance dance dance' playing on the speakers --- -- reminds me of a movie clip I saw tonight, just a couple minutes long, but it was Tom Hanks, floating on a makeshift raft made out of shipping trunks, adrift at sea, the ship had sunk, there was an unconcious girl sleeping on the raft, he found supplies in one of the trunks, a radio worked, a song was on, and so he started to dance. Our lord's ship has sunk, the raft is small, but hey, it IS July 19, dance dance dance IS a toe tapper, I bet he did a spastic dance like tom hanks.

Subject: Re: July 19 1966 From: Jethro To: bill Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 22:25:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was facinated by all that stuff. I heard m talk about it and heard how during the period from July 19th -July 31st, that voice came to him 3 times telling him that he was the one to continue. Also, how he told everyone to stop crying and that 'Don't you realise that guru maharaj ji never leaves you'. After his 25th anniversary-in-the-west thing(I was still a premie then in 1996), he said in an interview that when his dad died he cried for 3 days. I found this a bit disconcerting as I had read every publication by DLM and Elan Vital where he said the opposite.....now he was coming over a normal human being???? .....this was probably one of my first drips. I probably told myself that this was a test or lila or some other excuse. I am not sure how prempal lives with himself, knowing that he has lived completely off the backs of others. He must have some humanness left somewhere...mustn't he? ......His silence is staggering and speaks volumes. I expect he is still lord in his own world.

Subject: the 25th anniversary From: janet To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 10:42:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: how odd. i should have remembered being there, but i don't. was it held in long beach? or somewhere else?

Subject: Re: the 25th anniversary From: Jethro To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 19:12:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wasn't there but I have a copy somewhwere of the newspaper produced for it.

Subject: Re: July 19 1966 From: Vicki To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 06:16:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I never heard about Shri Hans slipping in the shower. Infact, not that long ago, in the past couple of years, Maharaji talked about that final day, saying that Shri Hans woke and wasn't feeling so good. He told Mahatmas, maids, whoever, to go and prepare his meditation room. Shri Hans toddled in, sat in cross legged pose and quietly passed from this world. No one knew when he had because that would have meant peeking into his room. Eventually somebody had to and there he was, perfect meditation pose but no longer in his body. And the rest is history, or is it?

Subject: The soap/shower story is bullshit From: Observer To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 13:54:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Repeated by Bill and has as much substance as his previous DNA story. The fact that anyone swallowed it tells you a lot. If you want to believe 'the worst,' true or not, that's all you'll see. Good for those who question this sort of nonsense.

Subject: I agree From: Jethro To: Observer Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 19:32:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: questioning is good. So do you believe that Hans was saved from drowning bu a giant hand that pulled him out of a river? Do you believe that mataji had a dream about hans and when she woke she drewhim and gave the picture to herfather who recognised hans when he gave a satsang program, approached hans and told him of the dream, after which hans married her? Both of these are recorded in official DLM publications. Do you believe them? I'm just curious, I certainly did for many many years.

Subject: Re: The soap/shower story is bullshit From: Thorin To: Observer Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 14:11:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Observer, you said Good for those who question this sort of nonsense Oh yes I did question all sorts of nonsense and only one conclusion was apparent. Have you, deep down, posed some serious questions? Just wondering? cheers Thorin

Subject: Re: July 19 1966 From: janet To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 10:46:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that version you heard is lifted straight out of the life of Hans's guru. it didnt happen to Hans, but they recycled it for him, since it sounded so good. you can look for it on EPO in the indian history section. curious for my own sake: how did we learn of the soap in the shower, anyway? who told it? how did it come out? i wonder when prempal found out?

Subject: yes and it continued to say From: Jethro To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 06:48:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that they put his body upright in the car so that the premies wouldn't know immediately that he died. They would just think he was meditating. I don't know about the slipping on the soap thing. Anyone??

Subject: So was it Soap or Samadhi??? From: La-ex To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 12:13:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, that is quite a large difference, isn't it? Of course, we were all fed the 'Samadhi' version for decades where the great yogi shri hans left the world in 'perfect peace'. Now we have the 'alternate' story.....the 'Soap' version, in which he falls on a bar of soap in the shower and hits his head and dies..... So which is it?......Soap or Samadhi? And how about the subsequent 2 weeks or so, where M was: 1-crying all day, or 2-hearing mysterious voices telling him he was 'the one', or 3-poclaiming himself the new 'satguru', whle mahatmas representing different factions battled it out in the porverbial 'smoke filled room' in the ashram, each trying to get their guy to be the next satguru...(Candidates were: prempal,satpal,mataji,or just promote the whole thing as a sort of 'yoga brothrhood' type of deal, with rotating 'heads' from time to time (Prof. Tandons idea?)) Has this 'succession' thing ever been put in it's own category on epo, with all of the dfferent versions addressed? Wouldn't it be interesting to ask M to give his 'final answer' to the whole thing?

Subject: It had to be soap.... From: PatD To: La-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 14:37:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....what a lila.

Subject: succession From: Livia To: La-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 14:29:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I go for number 3. No proof, but it just seems the most likely, somehow. But there's no way of knowing unless someone who was actually there is prepared to come forward and relate the actual truth rather than the official version. Livia

Subject: I heard that the one witness From: Jethro To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 19:38:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: was run over by a little podgy kid with a bumfluff mousetache and then some other geezer took the fall.(this is a joke......probably) Still within his own cult prem has made the lineage thing irreleveant. Prem says 'Don't tell me what I said yesterday'.

Subject: BS with a Buzz (The graying of premies) From: La-ex To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 21:58:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After attending a party with about 70-80 people, about 20 premies in attendance, I had the following ruminations about premies and PayPal Rawat..... Most premies are from the 'old days' having received knowledge during the waves of propagation in the 70's...... They are getting old, and most of them looked pretty well shop worn, and worse than a lot of other people I know who are the same age.... Most of them were not in good physical condition, have had troublesome lives and kids, and have neglected taking care of themselves in the emotional/psychological realm, while running all over the globe for decades following Rawat and Co., and dabbling in assorted 'new age' schemes that always seem to peter out after a few months or so... The men looked bald or gray, out of shape and there certainly weren't too many over-achievers present. The women looked old for their age, and most had been through a number of strange, drawn out relationships, with kids from many different relationships and involvements... A rag-tag group, if I ever saw one.... Although I was glad to see a few old acquaintances, I was so relieved to not count myself as one of them anymore. The premie presence brought up that old line from the C,S& N classic 'Suite:Judy Blue Eyes', in which Steven Stills sings 'You are living a reality I left years ago. It quite nearly killed me'....so true, at least for me.... A few things seemed to stick out: 1-M is talked about sparingly, and only amongst people who are considered to be practicing premies. 2-Nothing is said of any value about M or K, in stark contrast to the old days when premies were dying to speak the glories of the perfect one....even if they were full of spiritual concepts back then, at least there was a tangible enthusiasm, as compared with now, which seems somber. 3-Very little, if anything is shared, except when the next program might be, with a pathetic little smile acknowledging how 'beautiful' it will be...sorry, but I'd rather have my bliss here and now within myself than wait for the corpulent one's next visit to partake...come to think of it, wasn't it always supposed to be here and now and within me? Hmmm....How and when did that simple idea get hijacked by a fat guy on stage waddling around with flowers and a flute he can't even play, pretending he's Krishna? 4-Most of the premies looked old and worn out, and hardly any kind of 'bliss billboard' or 'walking advertisement' for knowledge, which M likes to say they are, although they are not supposed to talk about it, for fear of blowing it when they get those 'warm, fuzzy feelings'.... 5-None of the remaining premies wants to turn over any rocks to discover any scandals....the concept of 'mind' is still relevant, and the epo type allegations are not wanted....most of them seemed like they just wanted to keep the good old premie belief system, and get the occassional buzz once or twice a year, and leave it at that... 6-I think that the recent 'propagation effort' of the last few years has left many doubts in the minds of premies, mainly because it went absolutely nowhere...actually things have gotten worse, and premies don't like to talk too much about it, but just silently wait for the next darshan fix.. This led me to wonder....what, exactly is left? Certainly not satsang, except M's.... videos are so boring and predictable, and no new person can fathom why premies keep going back for more each week... Certainly not service, except in preparation for an 'M' visit... Premies can give money, but I have found more and more premies getting reluctant to shell out their hard earned cash for nothing in return.... Meditation? Most premies I know don't do it regularly and don't have any extraordinary experiences with it... Changing the world? What a joke! Waiting for the new direction? None that I can see, except for M going around in circles in denial. What I think premies have is BS (Belief System) with a Buzz. They still get a buzz when seeing M on stage. Coupled with the premie belief system (which is amazingly intact but not acknowledged in so many premies, until you talk with them for awhile), it gets a lot of them through the night. A buzz with a belief system. A belief system with a buzz. Incorporated within that belief system is the belief that you can never have these experiences without M.... You need him, and are lost without him. He alone can give you what you ultimately need. When I left M, I realized that he was actually preventing me from having the life I wanted, although he had guilt tripped me into believing that I needed him more.... What a relief to leave...

Subject: the song is 'You don't have to cry' From: minor correction To: La-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 11:31:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: not 'suite: judy blue eyes'. aside from that, your observations parallel mine at the final program i walked away from, in santa monica in april of 2000. i wonder--did we use up our ration of energy too early in life, doing all that stuff as early devotees, and burn out before our time? could that explain the washed out look of premies today? do normal people conserve that, by not knocking themselves out trying to convince themselves and everybody else of some hyped up beleif? janet

Subject: It goes with the territory From: Brian Smith To: minor correction Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 12:06:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Someone once said, 'Youth is too good a thing to be wasted on the young' I know that when I was younger I had an incredible amount of energy, but no real direction. Oh I eventually got a grip on it and made good of myself, but the typical dilemma of being young and impressionable is what to do with ones life. What probably hooked me into the cult in my youth was that here was a cause that I could focus on. Here was something profound and good, a higher calling if you will one that I could support my entire lifetime. If energy is allocated over a lifetime I hate to think that I blew such a big wad of my energy on the cult. There are far better causes to be committed to in this lifetime than feeding the ego and lining the pockets of a false guru. The problem with getting older is that I now have plenty of direction but much less energy to fund my projects and commitments. Not to mention the health challenges, aches and pains that go with the territory of age, I am in my mid fifties now and I am beginning to see my share of them. Brian who still has a full head of hair and it's only 10% grey, feeling a little more energetic today

Subject: Right On! From: Brian Smith To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 13:19:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The last couple of years when I was active the cult (I exited 2001) I observed many of the same similarities you pointed out in your post. The once light, enthusiastic and joyful energy around the whole prem paypal rawat movement has digressed into a subdued and heavy secretive vibe. Where the satsang rooms were once brimming with the evenings declarations of love and enlightenment (albiet somewhat misguided) this phenomnena at least was an energizing and unifying factor. In contrast the evenings video events of today now commence anticlimatically and people file out zombie like glassy eyed with an auru of deadened resignation about them. Nobody goes anymore, except for the same old, same old and maybe once in a while a stray aspirant but that is not enough evidence to warrant anything special is going on. As my grandfather used to say 'even an old and tired hog rutting around in the muck will root up an acorn every now and then' If this was all that it was supposed to be as they said it was back when, where are all of the people? where is the joy? where is the love? Any fence sitting premie only need to go to one of these things either local or otherwise to come to the same conclusion. The supporting people left are hanging on to a desparate illusion, an illusion that has not now nor never will come to fruition. many are so deeply invested in it they can never let it go and get off it. It was a fine dream to dream while it lasted but the time has come to face reality and admit that the rawat just cannot pull this LOTU, bring peace to the world, guru, master thing off. Not at all like the promise of the peace bomb, the revealer of truth, the perfect master, keeper of the perfect knowledge etc. Brian who is thankful for the wisdom that I have gained through the years that allowed me to see the way out

Subject: Re: Right On! From: Richard To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 13:56:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right on brother, right on! Power to the people! Those video snooze-sang gatherings are somber and devoid of the humanity that drew us in. What can possibly be the attraction other than catching the mahabuzz as LA-ex puts it so well. A friend, who was actually seeking a teacher/master, came to one of the introductory videos and was intrigued. She tried to attend a non-intro night and was told it was for PWK only. She smelled secrecy and cultishness and just walked. As she so aptly put it 'What do they have to hide?' Good to see your words of wisdom here, Brian. The Class of 2001 is doing great and I hope you are doing well yourself. Richard

Subject: How to restore your hair From: Disculta To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 11:27:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello friends, I have been wondering why my hair is still such a good color after 50, and now I realize it's because I left the cult 18 years ago. Maybe we could market this to premies! Who cares about the LOTU if you can restore your hair? love Disculta-popping-in-a-bit-nervously-after-long-hiatus

Subject: Re: BS with a Buzz (The graying of premies) From: Vicki To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 09:55:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brilliant post. Very succint and on point. It leads me to believe we weren't/aren't "premies" but paying customers. At least people like that Anthony Robbin's character are upfront about it. Maharaji sells knowledge while claiming it's free, then keeps charging for it via devotion, participation and donations. When his customer base dries up, he uses premies to seek out more, revising and honing the come on lines, revising and honing the background history. But what a deal! Less premies to manage with bigger incomes. Yep, come to think of it, Leader's magazine was a brilliant move for what he wants.

Subject: But la-ex........ From: The Falcon To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 01:29:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you know that PHASE 2 is just about to happen and then the lion really will get to shag the lamb (or something). O ye of little faith! Joking aside the above is a good post and I have to agree when I look at my premie friends, most have now left but some remain, tired and disillusioned but feeling 'special'and always ready for the 'drug' of choice- a programme. Personally it is great to be back in the 'maelstrom of seething humanity' and not feeling one of the chosen ones. That is the biggest hook that Maharaji uses. all the best

Subject: Forget discernment... [nt] From: Neville To: Not GreyetDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 03:04:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What a load of bollox From: hamzen To: Not GreyetDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 02:58:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You believe nothing my arse. For a start off you believe auto-k is special, and you believe the prawn is special, jeezus you couldn't have 2 bigger belief systems for a start, and start scratching and we'd see you're riddled with them Reality, what a joke..

Subject: I believe auto-k is special? From: HamfisteDoc To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 22:00:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I do? Well well well. That's news to me ;) But there again, it's all just a big bunch on fairytales over here isn't it Ham? I'd suggest less Eccy's - they don't replace the seratonin you know. P.S. You better read this quick - I notice your petulant and cowardly FA is removing any posts which expose the bullshit that makes this place the Channel No 5 of forums. :)

Subject: Thanks for the quote but I already have. From: The Falcon To: Not GreyetDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 01:32:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but David if you ever want to be bound again I can put you in touch with some dear dominatrix friends of mine. Perhaps Cerise could be coaxed out with a little enforced feminisation? all the best

Subject: Re: Greying and Easing the Way From: Nik W To: The Falcon Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 16:20:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi La-Ex, Your post is a bit like a 'foreign report' for me - I haven't seen premies in a group since 1978, so your descriptions are quite exotic to me. Reading other's reactions helped me see how 'peculiar' my own first reading was, so on the grounds that this is from someone whose been in purdah for 25 years I've got this speculative comment. -- Having been losing hair for a decade and what remains is becoming devoid of pigment - I can take with amusement, the shared onset of decrepitude that affects us all. However, hair loss, greying and a spreading waistline are minor challenges to ones state of being; my perspective is formed by having had a chronic health impairment for over 15 years and I don't think that this early 'decrepitude' can be laid at the door of Rawat or my involvement with DLM. Of course from certain Psychoanalytic and Psychotherapeutic view points all physical ailments have their roots in the psyche - to which my answer is - Would Freud have considered he had developed a conflicted Id, if one kneed him in the groin ? I suspect not. I think that there is a 'problem' with making a critique of any group of people on the basis of their apparent physical, emotional or intellectual state - the important question is not, I would suggest, What have they achieved ? but How have they survived ? That large numbers of premies have led problematic, chaotic and low achieving lives, is not surprising - the very nature of what DLM offered in the early 70s attracted a large number of damaged, unstable and confused people, they (we ?) inevitably led damaged, unstable and confused lives - unless some amelioration of their (our ?) internal difficulties, was achieved. That K, DLM/EV and Rawat did not provide an absolute cure for psychological distress is an obvious truth; a more difficult question is whether any aspect of K, DLM/EV or Rawat provided amelioration of the psychological distress of premies. As I've said in a previous thread - for me K and DLM provided an anaesthetic, having lived the last third of my life with constant physical pain I have an acute awareness of the need one can have for anaesthesia. Did Rawat or DLM offer a life free of pain ? Was enlightenment to include freedom from physical discomfort and mental anguish ? I genuinely don't know now what was being offered - I took the anaesthetic and the straight jacket that K and DLM offered me, it killed the psychological pain of my early life and provided a safe place to be. Of course all of that is relative - there may have been better choices for me to make, better places to grow up, better everything but I have never in the intervening 30 years been able to divine what sources of better that were available to me. The deal however with anaesthetics is that they tend to be addictive, a craving remains long after their usefulness has passed. That a lot of older premies may have the demeanour of long term Prozac users is perhaps not surprising, because the impetus to keeping taking the medicine is the same. Being old, grey and unlovely only increases the for, as someone said above - the need for the drug of choice. I vote addiction to be added to the cohort of predisposing psycholgical states,endemic amongst premies. Nik Nik

Subject: M's liability From: Nottm Bunny To: Nik W Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 15:09:49 (PDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Hi Nik, Of course the blame for low achievement cannot be completely laid at Maharaji's feet when you consider the starting point of many of those/us who got sucked in. However, the point at which many premies are at now is a sad reflection on the promise inherent in his precious gift 'where one spark of this knowledge lands it will make it perfect'. I feel strongly that had he only spoken the word, such was his influence, many of those lives could have been improved considerably. Saddest of all is the substantial contribution to mankind that we could have made collectively and that was sacrificed to his growing greed for luxury and power. My God, when I think of the difference we thought we were going to make to the world! The articles from the early seventies recently published on EPO were very poignant in this regard. Bunny, who escaped after many, many years with youthful dreams and enthusiasm intact - and some time left to realise them.

Subject: Re: M's liability From: NikW To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 02:44:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi NB, Yes absolutly. Let's just say I have some 'issues'(deliberate use of psychobabble !) with responsibility, culpability and blame. Glad the dreams and enthusiasm are intact, and I hope you've found some rewarding and deserving place to nurture them. Nik

Subject: Re: Greying and Easing the Way From: PatD To: Nik W Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 18:16:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That K, DLM/EV and Rawat did not provide an absolute cure for psychological distress is an obvious truth; a more difficult question is whether any aspect of K, DLM/EV or Rawat provided amelioration of the psychological distress of premies. I got into the Bollixshwar world out of curiosity not distress...that came later & as a consequence,so I can't answer your question from a personal perspective.We're on opposite sides of the looking glass. It's an ill wind though,& I'm pleased that you took the money(so to speak)& ran. Maybe you could tell us how you did it.

Subject: Re: Greying and Easing the Way From: NikW To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 02:36:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That K, DLM/EV and Rawat did not provide an absolute cure for psychological distress is an obvious truth; a more difficult question is whether any aspect of K, DLM/EV or Rawat provided amelioration of the psychological distress of premies. I got into the Bollixshwar world out of curiosity not distress...that came later & as a consequence,so I can't answer your question from a personal perspective.We're on opposite sides of the looking glass. It's an ill wind though,& I'm pleased that you took the money(so to speak)& ran. Maybe you could tell us how you did it. --- Hi Pat, A full answer to your question would be rather long and I'm not sure I have the confidence to attempt that just now. The short answer is 'I haven't done it'. It is true that I haven't paid my Guru Tax in over twenty years, but that makes me a bad premie not an ex premie. I have lived much of the intervening years with an internal commitment to K and to (my image of him) M. In a recent thread here somone saliently observed that Exiting was a process not an end - in my case the process has been somewhat ossified. It might be said that I exited 25 years ago, I just haven't realised it yet ! (wry grin) Thanks for asking though. Nik

Subject: Residual Belief in GMJ From: PatD To: NikW Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 12:59:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been convinced for ages that there must be many thousands of people,once initiated,who now & then wake up in the middle of the night thinking,'shit,have I blown it infinity wise because I never really got it together with the Incarnation'..... I sometimes wonder about the value of this forum...then someone like you comes along to prove that the value is inestimable. All the best.

Subject: Summat to read from R Steiner(1910) From: Bryn To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 14:23:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The ancient Oriental entered into his dream-like thinking more from the rhythmic life of feeling than does the man of the present age. The Oriental experienced for this reason more of the rhythmic weaving in his life of thought, while the Westerner experiences more of the logical indications. In ascending to super-sensible vision, the Oriental Yogi interwove conscious breath with conscious thinking, in this way, he laid hold in his breath upon the continuing rhythm of cosmic occurrence. As he breathed, he experienced the world as Self. Upon the rhythmic waves of conscious breath, thought moved through the entire being of man. He experienced how the Divine-Spiritual causes the spirit-filled breath to stream continuously into man, and how man thus becomes a living soul. The man of the present age must seek his supersensible knowledge in a different way. He cannot unite his thinking with the breath. Through meditation, he must lift his thinking out of the life of logic to vision. In vision, however, thought weaves in a spirit element or music and picture. It is released from the breath and woven together with the spiritual in the world. The Self is now experienced, not in connection with the breath in the single human being, but in the environing world of spirit. The Eastern man once experienced the world in himself, and in his spiritual life today he has the echo of this. The Western man stands at the beginning of his experience, and is on the way to find himself in the world. If the Western man should wish to become a Yogi, he would have to become a refined egoist, for Nature has already given him the feeling of the Self. which the Oriental had only in a dream-like way. If the Yogi had sought for himself in the world as the Western man must do, he would have led his dream-like thinking into unconscious sleep, and would have been psychically drowned

Subject: Re: Summat to read from R Steiner(1910) From: PatD To: Bryn Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 16:55:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Christ! I keep forgetting that the new age mumbo jumbo has a long pedigree. Madame Blavatsky,Krishnamurti,Yogananda,Aleister Crowley... & now this load of old bollocks which makes as much sense as 'merrily,merrily,merrily,merrily,life is but a dream'. Here's an extract from a writer whose understanding of the relationship between East & West appeals to me much more: Er petticoat was yaller an er little cap was green, An er name was Supi-yaw-lat --- -jes the same as Theebaw's Queen, An I seed her first a-smokin of a whackin white cheroot, An a wastin Christian kisses on an eathen idol's foot: Bloomin idol made o mud What they called the Great Gawd Budd Plucky lot she cared for idols when I kissed er where she stud! On the road to Mandalay.... Rudyard Kipling.

Subject: More Kipling From: JohnT To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 00:48:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice one, PatD. Here's some more no-nonsense from Kipling, from We and They. All good people agree, And all good people say, All nice people, like us, are We And everyone else is They: But if you cross over the sea, Instead of over the way, You may end by (think of it!) looking on We As only a sort of They!

Subject: One man's mumbo jumbo... From: Loaf To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 22:43:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... is another man's fitted kitchen' Loaf 2002

Subject: Another Kipling Gem.. From: Anthony To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 02:34:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'We're poor little lambs who've lost our way, Baa! Baa! Baa! We're little black sheep who've gone astray...' etc. Many people know the Whiffenpoof Song, which was a favourite of air-crew in WW2, and featured in the Cary Grant film 'Monkey Business' before it. How many know that the original was written by Kipling? 'Gentlemen Rankers' talks of soldiers who were originally officers, endured a fall, and are now forced to serve in the ranks with the hoi polloi, comparing their illustrious past with their present shame.. Anthony

Subject: Fine, fine....I liked it! From: Bryn To: Anthony Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 11:13:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought it was 'insightful'. Wont be doing that again in a hurry! Love Bryn

Subject: Re: Fine, fine....I liked it! From: Thorin To: Bryn Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 12:17:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Bryn Between you and me I also liked it. The quote from Rudolf Steiner does raise, in my mind, some significant questions on cultural differences between the east and the west. Questions that relate to how one approaches meditation (or whatever form of centering one chooses). I guess the stereotype of the western culture is rationality and eastern culture of, as Steiner says, dream like thinking - perhaps of irrationality. I don't think the dividing line is as simple as these stereotypes but there is some merit in, perhaps, exploring this aspect and how this relates to the export of Maharajism to the west and our reaction to it. I do think that the need to be rationale has led to the mass exodus from the cult in the west whearas, by all accounts, pwks in India (and Malayasia etc) are not so troubled by the various disclosures that have been made about Maharaji in recent years. After all, in India, there is a strong historical tradition of following Guru's and part of the overall Hindu theology. However back to Steiner, I have not read any of his stuff for many years but did find then, and confirmed in the quote you gave, that he tended to adapt a slightly idiosyncratic way of writing and often coined some bizzare sounding stuff - like 'conscious breath'. Defies rationale analysis but yet does point to something intrinsic. Like what is it that moves somebody emotionally and, perhaps spiritually, when seeing a beautiful flower or listening to a great piece of music? Perhaps even meditation? Talking about meditation - several months ago someone posted a great piece from some Rinpoche fella and his approach to meditation. The piece was so beautifully put, gave very clear guidance and was absent all mumbo jumbo of perfect masters, devotion and the attached BS. Pity I did not save that post. all the best Thorin

Subject: Steiner, Jung et al From: moldy oldie To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 14:58:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi there The thing to remember about Steiner is that he wrote in German and that the translations of his work into English make his writings come across as cumbersome and heavy. I have been told that it sounds better in the original. Also its worth mentioning that Steiner and his contempories including Jung Eagner and an earlier generation of German philosophers in the mid 1800s are the true pioneers of the new age and not Californians. They rejected christianity and tried to rediscover their ancient pagan religion of Wodanism and in the process got into spirituality, meditation, nature and sex. Unfortunately for them drugs and rock and roll had not yet appeared on the scene. I read a fascinating book about all this called the Jung cult. It turns out that the goal of Jungian therapy is to achieve a state called individuation and the only person who has achieved this lofty state is Jung himself. Sound familiar anyone? Bye

Subject: Re: Steiner, Jung et al From: PatD To: moldy oldie Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 16:48:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks,I never knew that. Weren't the Hindu holy books like the Upanishads & the Gita translated by Germans at the beginning of the 19thC,then from German into English? I always wondered why the nazis chose the swastika as their symbol,it seemed so obscure,but maybe it wasn't after all(if you lived in Germany)

Subject: Re: Steiner, Jung et al From: NikW To: moldy oldie Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 16:40:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi moldy >It turns out that the goal of Jungian therapy is to achieve a state called individuation and the only person who has achieved this lofty state is Jung himself. Sound familiar anyone? < Yes, but Jung provided a basis for understanding human distress and ways of addressing that distress without any requirement for a personality cult or a demand for perfection. Was Jung perfect ? No ! Is psychotherapy perfect ? No ! but it does offer a means by which individuals who are in psychological distress, can be helped toward a psychologically healthier state. Of course Jung's work should be challenged, but on the basis of providing something better - not on the basis that the man was another fallible human who was overly lauded by some of his supporters. Oh I admit it I like Jung OK ! Symbolically Nik

Subject: Very useful utilities/PC (OT) From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 08:58:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A couple of very useful utilities if you're using a PC: 1/ Outlook Express Backup, available at: http://www.genie-soft.com/default.html Backup all your data, if your an Outlook Express user (emails, newsgroups etc), on any support. My advice: make the backup file on your hardrive, and THEN copy it on your backup media - ZIP or CD. 2/ CacheX, available at: http://www.mwso.com Manage your browser's cache (MSIE or Netscape), delete old files and folders, etc 3/ 95 System Backup, if you're a Win 95/98 user: http://www.genie-soft.com/default.html Enables you to restore your configuration if your system crashes and you if have to reinstall windows (which usually happens once or twice a year). Don't forget to make a copy of your backup on a removable support.

Subject: Cehck your system's security (ot) From: Jean-Michel To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 06:43:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: or not so OT. Check your system's (and firewall's) security at: PCFlank.com Looks like my new firewall is excellent ...

Subject: Maharaji's upbringing post From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 06:02:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Help! I started reading a post last night about Maharaji's upbringing - it said that he was always being hit by his older brothers and that he has said he used to just wish he was somewhere else. I had to leave it halfway through as was going out and now I can't find it anywhere! My computer's being very slow today and I can't possibly trawl through every thread looking for it, so if anyone remembers where it is, could they please tell me, or repost it up here! I can't remember who wrote it or what thread it was in, but I don't think it was very far down. It was extremely interesting and looks as if sheds light on what it must have been like for him as a possibly quite traumatised child - mindboggling because I'd never thought about him in quite that way before. Please, somebody, find it! Livia

Subject: It's OK, I've found it From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 06:25:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's OK, I've found it, it was Cynthia's post in the narcissism thread, and very interesting it is too! Love, Livia

Subject: Re: Maharaji's upbringing post From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 06:17:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia It was from Cynthia, only a few posts down below. Here is the relevant text with link as above. xoxo Thorin His family was clearly violent and extraordinarily dysfunctional. He was living with Shri Hans who was adored by his nuclear famly and the closest worshippers, along with the masses who adored and deferred exclusively to the Shri Hans. I pity the child Prem who has said that he dodged his violent older brothers who fought constantly and often violently. I would venture to speculate that the father was absent during much of m's early developmental years of childhood (age 1 to 5) which added to the mix of dyfunction within the immediate family which was a setting that was ideal for M's becoming an NPD. Maharaji has said that as a little boy he'd sit in the corner wishing to get out Sibling violence www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=gl&id=4358.39590318454301

Subject: Re: Maharaji's upbringing post From: Jerry To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 12:12:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Boy, did he ever get revenge! I bet his brothers never dreamed he'd one day be satguru, eh? I wonder what they must have felt when they first got the news... 'Can you believe pop made that little runt the satguru? Boy, are we fucked! There's gotta be some way we can work around this...' Heh,heh,heh. I guess his oldest brother eventually DID, didn't he, when HE became satguru with all rights to DLM. That'll teach the runt to mess with big brother.

Subject: They used to throw BRICKS From: Jean-Michel To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 08:22:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: at each other when fighting. I remember PR telling the story, to illustrate how bad it used to be with his brothers. Maybe it's printed in a satsang somewhere. y

Subject: Re: They used to throw BRICKS From: Livia To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 11:58:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The more you hear about it, the more of a dysfunctional family it seems to be. And given Shri Hans' propensity for beating people with a stick - well, perhaps he used that stick on his family too. From my own observations, siblings aren't usually all that violent towards each other unless someone's being violent towards them. Beyond the normal nip and tuck that goes on with most if not all siblings, children learn actual violence from their parents. I'll never forget a time I was sitting with a father, his 2-year-old son and 1-year-old daughter. The son did something which irritated the father - the father slapped the boy across the face. The bot then immediately turned to his baby sister and slapped her across the face. And once I was in a shop with my son who was then 3. Another boy ran up to him and hit him across the head - for no reason at all except that he was there. The father ran up to the boy, whacked him hard and said: 'Don't hit!' My guess is that those boys were regulalrly hit, with the result that the older ones took it out on the younger ones. Prem, being the youngest, probably came off worst. (I'm beginning to feel quite sorry for him!) Maybe all that explains some of his propensity for bullying. Who knows. Livia

Subject: Re: They used to throw BRICKS From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 12:18:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now now Livia Don't start on the subject of bullying! See above link. xoxo, Thorin The serial bully www.successunlimited.co.uk/bully/serial.htm

Subject: It was the 30th Anniversay Satsang... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 12:11:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi all, Thanks Livia...I was going to mention the brick-throwing but forgot. When I tried to go back to m after a long hiatus :) I saw a video of the 30th Anniversary Gala satsang in Long Beach (I am 99.5 percent sure it was at Long Beach). I wasn't at the program but I clearly remember him talking a lot about his family, including the brick throwing. How his brothers threw a brick through a the windshield of a very expensive car, which was good because they were aiming at eachother! It was one time he seemed to open up a hair and talk about his real life with Mom and Dad. Then he went on to make his major point which was to distinguish himself from his nuclear family; he so much as said and definitely implied that the whole family wasn't holy implying HE was the only one who was holy. I only feel sorry for the child. Given his behavior after his marriage and becoming a father (which I consider the advent of adulthood) it has always been his responsibility to recognize his behavior. His own behavior. He doesn't seem able to do that. Hmmmmm.... OT: Btw, if you folks decide to discuss this more I'll bow out because I'm very triggered about the child abductions (can't watch any of it on tv--too many newsbreaks). They found a little girl in California, five years old, raped and murdered. Big, big Sigh.... So, I'll just avoid the thread. If I read something that I remember a satsang about I'll pipe in. I've been having panic attacks for a week now--Phew...I'll be okay, it happens sometimes. It's good,very good that the recent abduction stories are being given so much publicity because it's an eye opener and will alert parents not to panic but to get educated and to educate their kids. 100,000 children are abducted by strangers in the U.S. every year. The other 200,000 are by known people, usually a parent in a spousal dispute, etc... So here I am, without children, panicking. I'll get over it:( Love, Cynth

Subject: Bricks, holy family and shri hans From: la-ex To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 12:30:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, I remember the 'brick satsang' at the 30 year anniversary bash...I was there, and m was 'pooh-poohing' the idea of the 'holy family', by saying that at one point in their regular fighting, that a brick had flown through a window, I believe....(my take was that m was trying once again to disown the past by bringing up silly examples that would get a laugh or two, but not venture into anything that had real merit in discussing....however, by bringing up harmless examples like that, he could claim to have 'talked about' those sort of issues, by making light of them...) I think that m also said at that program, sarcastically, about himself, that he used to 'Mr. World Peace', but wasn't anymore.... I took that, later on, to be his excuse for an apology to the premies for leading them on with his 'saviour of mankind' schtick that he used for decades to lighten their wallets and feather his own nest... Does anyone remember the satsang (I think it was at the last Long Beach program in the late 1990's) where m talked about shri hans and his strange ways? M said something about shri hans's strange behavior,(my feeling was that he was saying this in reference to some allegation about shri hans or something....maybe something had been on ep[o at that time...) Anyway, when we returned from a break, the first thing he talked about was that shri hans 'had his ways', but was still amazing nonetheless.... I never knew what he was referring to, but it must have been some negative story that was circulating about his father at the time... It was couched, as usual, in the perspective that shri hans was so far beyond us all in his wisdom and understanding, that mere mortals such as us would never be able to comprehend his 'ways', even if seemingly strange.... As far as bricks go, I would wager that paypal and satpal had an intense sibling rivalry growing up, as evidenced a few years later with the different factions of the family business.....I'd say that one of them threw the brick at the other, with poor bhole ji and raja ji in between.....I'd say maybe it was our very own Paypal, rather than Satpal who probably threw it, looking at the personalities of the two....

Subject: The more you know ,the more... From: PatD To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 18:40:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....you get pissed off. Throwing bricks at each other & the little shit only mentions it 30 yrs later,when the memory of the holy family has safely faded. Yeah,they saw us coming alright. Now that Bal bhagwanji has evolved into Satpal & has a photo on his website of him with Sonia Ghandi(the builder's daughter from Collegno who married the handsome Air India pilot)& various other potentates,one has to think..........What? The ex 'Lord of the Intellect', wasn't that BBJ's title back in the dim & distant,has put in a stint as Minister for Telecommunications in an Indian Gov. in the '80's. Time heals all wounds,money & power are hand in glove.....there's life in the old firm yet. That's just a guess,not an attempt to construct a conspiracy theory.

Subject: No sympathy for the devil From: Marianne To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 21:41:29 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: I find these stories of the Family Rawat to be very interesting, because they give insight into Rotwat's present and past behavior towards family, and premies. But while his childhood upbringing gives insight into his early psychological make-up, to my mind, it does not excuse his abusive and destructive behavior towards family and premies. This guy claims to have the patent for eternal happiness and permanent peace in this self knowledge crap. He has amassed a multi-million dollar fortune, and all the expensive accoutrements that go along with it. If he really did have the ultimate answer to peace and harmony, why doesn't he practice it with those closest to him? Since he has all this money available, why doesn't he invest it in psychological counselling which will help him to behave consistently with the philosophy that he espouses? As far as I am concerned, his abject failure to use his financial assets to address his own inter-personal short-comings - the product of an abusive, bizarre childhood - says everything about this person. He's perfect. The rest of us are wretches, who can never attain what he has. I'm just glad I saw through this fraud when I did. Marianne

Subject: Bricks stories From: Jean-Michel To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 13:03:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've heard it 1st time during some instructors meeting I guess. That was the context you've very well explained.

Subject: luvly post from symp II From: mahatma ji To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 03:47:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a sweet child you are... Re: Re: Chinese Proverbs... -- Cerise Post Reply Top of thread Forum Posted by: Marolyn 07/16/2002, 20:32:27 --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Edit Butter wouldn't melt in your mouth I'm sure. I'd LOVE to hear your jokes, I'm sure they are very funny, witty and amusing, just like yourself. I'm a former Instructor for Maharaji. I'm retired now, but I have many happy memories, and He really wasn't so bad, you know. Don't listen to the unhappy ex-students, they don't know what they are talking about. I have a recipie for 'special' brownies that I'm sure you would enjoy. Sincerely, Marolyn Intyre, former instructor, who knows it was never as bad as the false memories of the confused ex-students make it out to be. Uploaded file Modified by Marolyn at Tue, Jul 16, 2002, 21:42:58 Post Reply | Recommend | Alert Where am I? Original Top of thread Previous | Next | Current page Replies to this message Thank you, it's so nice... --- Cerise ( 2002-07-16 21:50 ) My dear... --- Andrea E. ( 2002-07-17 17:05 )

Subject: hmmmmmmm From: moldy oldie To: mahatma ji Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 15:26:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marolyn, you would see things that way after all as an instructor you would have had far far more contact with students then M did and in fact you would have been his most effective tool in those pre video days. Of course you don't think he was that bad, if you did you would have to accept your own role in playing around with other peoples lives. Anyway, doctors retire so do plumbers and baseball players. What you did was pure garbage, perhaps you should rather say that you are a reformed instructor like a reformed criminal or alcoholic who promises herself not to do it again. yours grumpily

Subject: It's better... From: Chuck S. To: mahatma ji Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 10:08:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...with photos. with photos... www.anyboard.net/soc/culture/symposium/posts/64.html

Subject: To AV From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 09:17:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV, Thorin, Bolly and I are meeting up on Saturday for lunch - any chance you'd like to join us? It'd be brilliant if you could come! Please email me at liviadowte@hotmail.com If you're worried about anonymity at this stage, you can very easily set up a Hotmail account in any name you like - it just takes a few minutes - but you probably know that anyway. Hoping to hear from you... Livia

Subject: Re: To AV From: Anthony To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 12:25:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, You sound such good people I'd like to meet you too. Probably being nosey. Anyway, I think I live about 250 miles away. Best wishes anyway. Anthony

Subject: Re: To AV From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 11:01:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: how kind of u to invite me, I am in a hectic period right now, but will see if I can get away...thank you! AV :)

Subject: Re: To AV & Anthony From: Thorin To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 04:43:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV Sincerely hope you can make it tomorrow. I believe you are in London as well - happy to take you to the meet with Livia and Bolly; it's not too far. Please mail me on thorin@sent.com soon if you are able to get away tomorrow. In any event would be very pleased to receive your emails at any time. (in whatever form or substance you choose). Anthony: Please do email either Livia or me any time. cheers Thorin

Subject: Re: To AV & Anthony From: AV To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 06:24:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, be great to meet you all....actually I'm trying to free up the weekend, but it's looking very tight. If I miss y'all, have a super time and I'll see yuz soon. x

Subject: Re: To AV & Anthony From: AV To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 06:24:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, be great to meet you all....actually I'm trying to free up the weekend, but it's looking very tight. If I miss y'all, have a super time and I'll see yuz soon. x

Subject: I cannot log into Forum 8 From: Francesca To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 12:14:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've tried several times over several days, to submit a name and a password, but it keeps giving me error messages. It actually has the cheek to have me rate software I cannot figure out how to use. There is an option to save a password, but I don't like to have computers save passwords. Gerry, could you possibly post instructions on how to join Forum 8 for people who do not find it intuitive, or perhaps post instructions on Forum 8 itself when someone goes over there. I'm usually not stupid with computers but I find it either malfunctioning or counter-intuitive from my POV, to say the least. Thanks for your assistance. --F

Subject: You are welcomed to... From: Chuck S. To: Francesca Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 11:31:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're welcomed to give Symposium II a try. I've configured it to be as simple as I could make it. You can post without logging in and choosing a password, but if you login and create a password, it will auto-fill your name in when you post, and you won't have to login again unless your internet connection breaks. 'Login' is different from 'Registration'. Login allows you to pick your name and password, and start posting. Registration is a more complicated process, requiring email authentication, and I've turned that feature off. I wish to keep it simple. On Symposium II I've also set the software to expose multiple aliases, so there will perhaps be less trolling possible (there are ways of getting around this feature, but they are difficult and tiresome :) ). The forum also allows posting of media files such as .jpg, .gif., .mid and .wav files. It could be a lot of fun. ()) I hope you and others will give it a try.

Subject: I will and thanks Chuck! From: Francesca To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 10:34:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll print up your e-mail for starters. xoxoxo F

Subject: and I can't even read it (nt) From: The Falcon To: Francesca Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 12:33:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: F8 is on hold for a while [nt] From: gerry To: The Falcon Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 12:50:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thanks Gerry! From: Francesca To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 10:35:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought I was really on Mars. Well, on second thought ... maybe ... Oh, nevermind! F

Subject: Slide Shows From: Aisha To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 10:31:52 (PDT) Email Address: nomadpalace@hotmail.com Message: I have two Hans Jayanti slide shows ... does anyone want them 'for the records' ... otherwise I intend throwing them away ... happy to post them within UK. Contact me at hotmail and they are yours.

Subject: Slide shows From: Vicki To: Aisha Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 14:06:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Which one's are they?

Subject: Beliefs and escaping the cult From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 15:43:47 (PDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: I've been thinking about the purpose, if there is one, of these discussions amongst people leaving Maharaji's cult. One subject that has arisen repeatedly is the beliefs people have retained from the cult, or from before they joined the cult, or that they have embraced since leaving the cult. Some people retain some of the beliefs held by cult members, such as the 'divinity' of the meditation experiences. Some have new age beliefs. Some believe in astrology, while others embrace traditional beliefs such as Christianity or Buddhism. Should the discussions here try to challenge those beliefs? I suspect not too strongly. It's not that they are not susceptible to challenge, or that they do not indeed invite challenge from enquiring minds. It's just that the reality of our existence is that we choose to adopt beliefs because the strain of keeping an open mind is too great. I suspect that applies to each and every one of us. So what can we hope for from these discussions? Information about Maharaji and our lives believing in him, for sure. Challenges of the beliefs we held as cult members are also healthy. As for the rest, challenging beliefs is healthy but it is unrealistic to expect this forum to be able to find ultimate truth, or that the contributors put themselves forward as explorers in that search. I suspect many of us are tired from our battles in the cult, and simply need to rest now that we're out. So to my opinion of the purpose of these discussions - let us help people escape the cult, and respect their choices of beliefs afterwards. Challenge them politely, by all means, but keep the search for ultimate truth to a forum where the participants agree that there are no sacred cows. Anyone want to start such a forum? I've got a few ideas about breaking down the mental links between desire and its gratification that I'd like to throw open to challenge.... John.

Subject: I know the truth ... From: Marina Tsvetayeva To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 23:00:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: posted by JohnT I know the truth -- give up all other truths! I know the truth -- give up all other truths! No need for people anywhere on earth to struggle. Look -- it is evening, look, it is nearly night: what do you speak of, poets, lovers, generals? The wind is level now, the earth is wet with dew, the storm of stars in the sky will turn to quiet. And soon all of us will sleep under the earth, we who never let each other sleep above it. by Marina Tsvetayeva, 1915. Translated by Elaine Feinstein

Subject: And in my heart, the memory From: Boris Pasternak To: Marina Tsvetayeva Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 02:02:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And in my heart the memory Of your face will remain forever And now the hard heart of the world Is not my business.. Poems of Zhivago

Subject: Yes out with that baby! From: Bryn To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 11:40:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: M's meditation does nothing but displace your uncertainty to a different arena. Before K you wonder about what is 'around' you. After K you wonder about what is 'inside' you (or you should do if you are not brain dead). Of course you are told only 'mind' asks questions about K etc, so I suppose the novelty of that idea helps hype the techniques into gateways to heaven. Strange but true, before K at least when you were looking at the world 'outside' you had a clear identity of yourself as a spectator.You knew you were confronting things that were questions, and you were the confronter/questioner. After k and the hype that accompanies it, you don't know where you are! You end up somehow thinking that you are looking at yourself! Its bollocks! And then because you are convinced what you are looking at is holy and you are looking somehow at yourself too, therfore you must be god- or something. QED! Whaaa? Either way the idea surely is to know what you are looking at. I don't recall M ever going anywhere near issues like these in his discourse, and I listened for twenty five years. 'That' experience is all he could hint at. 'That' feeling inside. Stay with that feeling. Hell PP, EVERYTHING is a feeling inside eventually, why 'that' one particularly? Sorry Prem but you were too vague. I used to think it was subtlty and wisdom, but now I know you were bluffing. Thanks, but I'm sorting it out myself. Without mumbo jumbo, breath mysteries, after-image phenomena and cringing devotion to fudge it all together. Love to all Bryn

Subject: Throw the baby away. From: AJW To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 03:58:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, I don't think there's a clear line that you cross when you leave the cult. Of course, there is that beautiful moment when you're conscious mind admits what you're into- and you say 'I quit', but for me, the process of leaving started before I consciously left, and has continued ever since. One of the more subtle chains to Rawat seems to be the 'Knowledge', which, as premies azre told, is an 'experience'. This appears to be no more than Maharaji's bullshit- God tastes of snot etc. So, what I guess I'm saying is that we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. Because it isn't a baby, it's a load of beliefs about patterns in the eyes, sounds in the ears, breathing and snot. I don't see this as anythything different from the crap we were fed about the Perfect Master, Satjyuga etc. Anth, living in the material world.

Subject: Re: Throw the baby away. From: Livia To: AJW Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 05:19:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There seem to be many differing views amongst us at to what the experience of Knowledge was or is. Some, like yourself, see it as an emperor's new clothes thing - nothing there, just some neurological/physical thing that doesn't really mean anything at all. Other people feel they definitely had/have an experience of some depth and meaning. Incidentally, I think it would be a great idea to have another forum to discuss all that stuff, although I feel it can easily happen here too, and often does. To go back to the experience - speaking personally, the jury's somewhat out. I most definitely can't say it's nothing, because I've had many experiences of a beautiful peace, and then coming out to face the world with a feeling of real happiness bubbling up inside me. I've also had many experiences of coming out of meditation feeling grumpy and possibly worse than before I started! I wonder if its true value is in whether it inspires you to treat people any differently? Like if it inspires you to treat people with more genuine respect and concern for their welfare, then it must be some kind of a good thing. But if it makes no difference to your social conscience or whatever, then its probably a mere calming device with no other intrinsic value. 'By their fruits shall you know them' was one of Jesus' (apparent) more apposite remarks, and I really don't see why premies should see themselves as immune from this consideration. If a premie practises K to the best of his/her ability and then goes around lying, cheating, stealing and generally being a pain in the neck to all around, then to what purpose is he/she practising K? A totally selfish one, which can in no way be a particularly good thing in my estimation. On the other hand, if the practising premie is a generally better, more loving person than they were before, and happier too, well it can't be doing too much harm. The sticking point in all of this is M because I do think focus on M detracts from other aspects of a premie's life, to generally detrimental effect, although the premie is unlikely to be able to see it at the time, only sense it in some deep-down way, like a lot of us here did for years before coming across EPO and then having everything fall into place. So I think practising the meditation without M could be a good thing, if it makes you more giving, creative etc. But if you've been doing it for years and find that it doesn't, then it's probably best to pack it in and quit wasting your time. Livia

Subject: Re: Throw the baby away. From: AJW To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 09:07:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, I don't think meditating makes you more creative- it's probably the opposite. Same with giving. I'd say giving things away makes you more giving (including your time) and creating things makes you more creative (painting, playing music, etc). I don't buy this meditation stuff any more. Anth (and don't forget more time for sleeping too. MMMn. Goodnight.).

Subject: 'M' offends me... From: gerry To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 08:17:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK call me a grouch, but this residual repect for the cheap hindu used mantra salesman now know as 'Prem' by refering to him as 'M' or 'Maharaji,' tends to loosen the contents of my gastropod and force said contents into an descending trajectory through open space. Even our pal Prem knows his days as 'great king' are over. I propose calling him Rawat or RawRat or other such diminishing diminutive. But then I'm a bit of a crank about such things...

Subject: Re: 'M' offends me... From: Livia To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 12:06:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry Gerry but I'm going to keep calling him Maharaji or M. In fact I even get irritated spelling it Maharaji because the original name was Guru Maharaj Ji and I was always suspicious of the perpetual changes to his name. The recent further changes to Prempal Rawat and then Prem are altogether beyond the pale as far as I'm concerned, and the premies' eagerness to embrace each new name without question sticks in my throat. I'd have thought M is just a quick, useful abbreviation. Even if it is short for 'great king' in Sanskrit or whatever. Livia

Subject: Agreed. It's useful shorthand. [nt] From: Neville To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 03:10:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: 'M' offends me...I kinda like... From: la-ex To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 20:01:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I kinda like the 'PayPal' nickname, just because it seems to fit so well, especially in contrast to 'SatPal', the other former Rawat Perfect Master......doesn't it just seem to say it all?....pay me and I'll be you pal.....all together now, Bolie Shrie Satgurudev Maharaj Ki Jai!.....Hansa Bansa Ki Jai!.....PayPal Ki Jai!.....

Subject: I know what you mean From: gerry To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 12:35:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The name changes a are weird, aren't they? I just can't call him by an honorific name. But did ya like the 'used mantra salesman' line?

Subject: Re: Throw the baby away. From: Neville To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 05:30:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do ends justify means? Is living a lie okay if it works for you? Personally, I think we should aspire to brutal honesty and live with the consequences. We should value truth for its own sake. Without a respect for the truth dialogue is pointless. Neville

Subject: I agree Neville (nt). From: AJW To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 09:08:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: i truly appreciate this JHB From: janet To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 12:25:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is the first truly compassionate insight I think I've seen on these boards since i came here two years ago. The things I really want to root out of me are the unhelpful cult programmings that I absorbed over the years in order to stay a premie, but I do not want to forsake the things that proved themselves true and reliable even while enduring the damaging habits that premiedom inculcated in me. I too have found the assaults upon my longlasting realizations to be tiresome and excessive. I feel that we are organic creatures who flow and grow in ways that defy formula, dogma, theory or dictates, and that no one ought to have to defend what they are, as if anyone had the perfect template of what we all ought to be. all beleifs are ad hoc working tools for the time and place, and like a cripple's crutches, they ought not be yanked forcibly out from under the person if that is what they need in order to get along the road as they are. one can offer something better, or demonstrate how it works, but not force it upon, or destroy what the person presently uses. there is good medicine and bad medicine, and i think we ought to recognize the difference. there is everything from the physical to the chemical to the mental, emotional and yes, spiritual, and the only criteria ought to be whether it works and does the person good. when i spoke about there being no sacred cows, i did not mean to employ ridicule, scorn and wanton destructiveness, i simply meant that no topic should be afraid to be broached, mentioned, explored or avoided, that anything ought to be speakable about. and the clear difference between the person and the topic should be kept separate. every PERSON is valid by their mere existence. what they believe or espouse is a matter of choice at a given point in time, and can change according to new information, understanding, realization or experience. and none of us knows in advance when and how that will happen, for anyone. so attacking the person is never right. taking up discussion of the particular subject, is. even with the disabled, the person may only wish to receive a particular kind of help with a particular thing, and the rest, they may manage by themselves in their own way, and not want any help with it. so 'helping ' them when they do not want or need it wil not be welcome or useful. thank you for bringing this up in the way that you did. i am grateful for its attention. it needed to be asked.

Subject: To find this kind of discussion From: It is so wonderful To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 15:09:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: happening on this forum. Thank you for taking the time to express yourselves in a way that many of us can relate to.

Subject: The Tribes of Prem and Ex-prem From: Sir Dave To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 16:59:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your last sentence threw me because I don't know what it means. What does, ''I've got a few ideas about breaking down the mental links between desire and its gratification that I'd like to throw open to challenge'' mean? I don't know what mental links there are between desire and its gratification. Does anyone? Surely it would be different in different people. And what do you want to throw open to challenge, exactly? I once read the book by Desmond Morris called ''The Naked Ape''. It brought the human race back down to earth because he describes us as creatures who are hunter gatherers in evolutionary terms and yet we are trying to come to terms with the modern world which is alien to our stage in evolution. Many belief systems and religions are substitutes for tribal leaders or elders. We would naturally live in small tribal groups with well known leaders and wise elders in our natural hunter gatherer habitat. Much of what modern humans do is to create or sustain some kind of tribal behaviour or lifestyle. So sport, nationalism, work, religion and ethnic identity are instinctive tribal identities which satisfy the tribal urge within us. Premies and Maharaji are a classic case of a tribe with a leader and elders. So no matter how small the group becomes, the tribal identity will remain and all the more stronger if the group shrinks. The ex-premie online presence is also a kind of tribe. It is pretty leaderless though although it does have a very strong group consciousness which is essential in any tribe. The group consciousness is based on our years spent in a common activity and belief system. However, I firmly believe that most ex-premies leave the loose knit tribe of ex-premiedom and form their own tribes or join other tribes that have little or no contact with the Tribes of Prem. That is the healthy way to go, I believe and is also the reason why ex-premies appear to leave the Tribe of Ex-prem and wander off after a while. Of course, there are always going to be the tribal elders like yourself who remain to administer the tribe. Maybe you are a tribal leader too.

Subject: sidebar OT for sir dave From: janet To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 12:31:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the silly thing about that theory is that it is couched as if anyone but humans created 'the modern world', or for that matter, the ancient one and al the history in between! who the hell do you think did it, if not us, humanity? ain't no one here but us humans, dave! it's all us. was then, is now, and unless we get taken over and farmed by aliens, it surely will be up the road! who else but us built the 'modern world'?? honestly --- !

Subject: Slow evolution From: Sir Dave To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 13:55:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Evolution is very slow and nothing much has changed physically or mentally in humans for over a million years or more. We are physically and mentally ''wired'' as hunter gatherers because it took millions of years for us to reach that stage and we're not going to just change in a few hundred thousand years and certainly not in the tens of thousands of years we've been spreading ourselves around the globe. So Desmond Morris's ideas are not far fetched or sensational but are based on pretty standard zoological science, in which he is well versed. Of course the human race has changed since the agricultural revolution but the basic raw material of humans is the same now as it was a million years ago. Evolution is too slow for that to change in a few millennia. In the future there will be a more rapid change due to genetic engineering and that will be in our own hands.

Subject: accretive evolution From: janet To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 14:50:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's more than that, dave. it's cumulative and accretive, and no amount of genetic engineering is gonna be able to alter that significantly. we are as old as the dirt. literally. we are built from the ground up. consider the brain: we have the reptilian stem and backbrain, the middle mammalian brain for emotions, territoriality and all things mammal, and then we have the forebrain, with logic, abstraction, future imagining, delayed gratification and all the attributes that humans can employ that we believe animals don't. we don't dispense with the older brain structures. we build on them. but they are vital and impossible to do away with. consider human embryology. from an egg and a sperm, thru the first cell divisions, to the first differentiation of the three layers, which progrssively specialize to become the skeleton, the muscle and the skin. consider the stages of the embryo, which goes thru the entire spectrum of evolution from one cell to finished human, in less than a year. consider stem cells, which can become whatever the surrounding structure tells them to replace. our evolution is encoded into every one of us. our biology is impossible to edit out of our natures. morris's ape is pretty superficial, when you step back and take a bigger look. and genetic engineers, i personally beleive, are deluded in their naive beliefs that they are gonna rewrite it all with a snap of the fingers. but we made the modern world, not apes, not aliens, not dolphins and whales and gods or goddesses. my persona;l view is that we need to drop this stubborn delusion that we can get out in front of our own natures and somehow control the world. biology is stronger than thinking. biology will always win, at the end of day, and at the end of the eon, as well.

Subject: Some mistakes will be made From: Sir Dave To: janet Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 17:39:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janet, you wrote: ''my personal view is that we need to drop this stubborn delusion that we can get out in front of our own natures and somehow control the world. biology is stronger than thinking'' Well that's exactly the point I've been making - we have not changed biologically since the first species of Home Sapien Sapien started wandering the globe. If you could take any one of those early men or women, as a baby, and bring them forward to our own time, they would assimulate into our world just as easily as we do. They'd be just as intellegent as we are and in no way ''primative'' as we believe them to have been. Genetic engineering will eradicate many diseases and produce stronger humans. Perhaps more intellegent ones. That's my prediction. Of course, some mistakes will be made along the way.

Subject: Fast forwarding into the future From: JohnT To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 06:12:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Evolution is very slow and nothing much has changed physically or mentally in humans for over a million years or more. We are physically and mentally ''wired'' as hunter gatherers because it took millions of years for us to reach that stage and we're not going to just change in a few hundred thousand years and certainly not in the tens of thousands of years we've been spreading ourselves around the globe. So Desmond Morris's ideas are not far fetched or sensational but are based on pretty standard zoological science, in which he is well versed. Of course the human race has changed since the agricultural revolution but the basic raw material of humans is the same now as it was a million years ago. Evolution is too slow for that to change in a few millennia. In the future there will be a more rapid change due to genetic engineering and that will be in our own hands. --- No offence Sir Dave, but I'm afraid that (afaik) although your ideas are broadly right, the timescale is, uhhh, out of kilter. My understanding (and I know the scientific evidence is still debated) is that anatomically modern humans -- people like us -- evolved in southern Africa, perhaps as long as 250,000 years ago. Mind you, the first bipedal apes appear in the fossil record much further back in time. Last I knew, a seven million year old fossil of a bipedal ape had been found. (It's worth being clear that biologically and evolutionarily speaking, humans are a species of ape. Humans in the broadest sense -- hominids -- are just apes that are adapted to walking on two legs. That gives a better view, and leaves the hands free to carry stuff. Evolutionists think that's why bipedal apes survived and continued to evolve.) But although anatomically modern humans have been around for at least 150,000 years and maybe as long as 250,000 years there are some very strange absences from the archaeological record. Evidence of using fire is there throughout -- hominids were using fire even before anatomically modern humans appeared. And the same is true of simple tools. What is missing is evidence of tools made from more than one substance. Incredibly, it seems that early modern humans just did not think about lashing a flint point onto a spear until comparatively recently. Strange, but the archaeological record is pretty clear. Early humans used simple stone tools but the technology developed achingly slowly through millenium after millenium. Nor is there evidence of Art and Ceremony. Yet some 40,000 or 50,000 years ago there was a cultural revolution. Complex tools were made by combining diverse materials. Bodily decorations; cave and rock art; ceromonial burials of the dead; all appear in the archaeological record about that time as well. This time is called the Neolithic Revolution. Somehow I suspect that a group of modern people brought up in isolation would not take 100,000 years or more to think up the idea of making tools from more than one material, or to come up with the idea of making pictures or other art. It is strange that the skeletons of people from the Neolithic look no different to those from tens of thousands of years earlier. For it seems undeniable that a change in the quality of human consciousness underlay the astonishing acceleration of Cultural Revolution that occured then -- and has continued to this day.

Subject: Re: Fast forwarding into the future From: Sir Dave To: JohnT Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 07:29:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But do you agree that such changes in consciousness are learned changes by each and every generation and not inherent in the genes? The changes and culture being passed on to one's children and so on and so forth. I still think the Australian Aboriginies are a good example of a stone-age people that proved to be the equal of modern man, once they learned what we took thousands of years to accumulate. Aboriginies drive cars, work on computers and do engineering, equal to the white Australians. The sudden change in early man is a mystery. However, man's great asset is his ability to pass on what he has learned to the next generation. So even a simple thing, once learned by one person can be passed on to all other members of the tribe and their offspring and remembered for all time. Other animals are not able to pass on such learned behaviour so successfully. I suspect our close-knit tribal groups would aid us in retaining and passing on information over the millennias. I think the cultural revolution of which you speak is the accumulation of learning, being passed on to each new generation, suddenly mushrooming (or snowballing) when it reached critical mass. Yes the learning process was achingly slow, just a few learned and passed on items in a millennia or so - and yet eventually, the sum total of the learning, together with good communication and teaching within tribal groups, would eventually hit a point where it really took off.

Subject: I don't know From: JohnT To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 00:01:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But do you agree that such changes in consciousness are learned changes by each and every generation and not inherent in the genes? Of course I accept that the Australian Aboriginies are a good example of a stone-age people that proved to be the equal of modern man. Theirs was a was Neolithic culture -- it is famed for its symbolic representations in rock art, body painting amd ceromonies. And they made complex tools and products by combining many materials. And you could be right that the change of human consciousness evidenced by the Neolithic Revolution was entirely cultural. But let's try a thought experiment. Imagine the Science Fiction scenario of a party of infants somehow marooned by a freak space accident on a distant planet who somehow survive into adulthood, but without *any* cultural inheritance. Hard to imagine, I know, but play along with the idea! Would you expect that these people and their descendants would take about 100,000 years or so to get round to lashing a flint to the end of a spear; or to develop weighted nets for fishing; to invent the bow and arrow; or representational painting? Perhaps, but I am not so sure. I'm sure we both accept that we are bipedal apes, shaped by the same evolutionary forces as all other animals. Too, neither of us imagines that chimpanzees (and, similarly, our most ancient bipedal ape forebears) have the same quality of consciousness as modern people, including modern hunter-gatherers. Modern science does not understand consciousness, or how it arises, but it seems very likely that a conscious experience is accompanied by particular brain processes. A change in the workings of the brain affects our experience of being-in-the-world, our conscious awareness. Accept all this, and one consequence is that genetically influenced changes in brain functioning have (at *some* stage in our evolutionary history) affected what our conscious experience is like. *Maybe* such a change underlies the Neolithic Revolution. Maybe our earliest (pre-Neolithic but anatomically modern human) ancestors did not have the same kind of self reflective awareness as we have. An awareness that enables us self-consciously to develop tools and painting. It's not impossible. And it would have conferred a highly significant survival advantage. Such an evolutionary step would have spread through the population like wildfire, but leave no trace in the fossil record that we can currently detect.

Subject: Whoops! Upper Paleolithic *not* Neolithic [nt] From: JohnT To: JohnT Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 02:53:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Slow evolution From: NikW To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 15:20:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, Evolution may be relatively slow but Science ain't - its time you added to your reading - Desomond Morris's work was shallow and pop 30 years ago - he's produced nothing significant since (last seen on a Cable TV Pet Show). There are vast volumes of published work on human physical, inellectual, psychological, cultural and technological evolution - all of which puts Morris into the shade. The numbers of anthropoid fossils found since Morris wrote the Naked Ape has more than trippled the total then known- we now have gentics - the most recent work gives mitochondrial Eve at 130,000 years BP and the modern human Adam at a mere 70,000 years BP. Dave I don't know if your ancestors have not changed much in a million years but I reckon mine have doubled their brain size, put on about 40 cms in average height and gone from a largely sign based language to complex vocalisation and the extraordinary abstraction of communication that we are using here. I'm not an accademic, I don't have access to special resources but I take an interest in various areas of science - the developments in Genetics, Anthropology, Archaeology, Ethology, and Ethnography that are relevant to your view point, are readily available. I don't see how it helps to reference a proposition to writings that have long been surpassed. One of the challenges to 'cult' thinking is science - and science has never been more available. By all means tell me I'm talking bollocks - but please do so by quoting Richard Dawkins or some other serious scientist, not some has-been populist hack. Nik

Subject: Re: Slow evolution From: Neville To: NikW Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 00:31:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Agreed, Nik. I haven't yet studied evolution, but I've studied a lot of related topics as part of my current BSc. course. It's clear that humans evolved at a surprising rate (2 million years is fast) and it seems likely we are continuing to evolve. Sir Dave has quite overlooked the massive environmental changes since, for example, the agricultural revolution (we went from hunter-gather to farmer) and the probable knock-on effects. Cave paintings--and presumably a sense of the aesthetic--first appeared circa 40,000 years ago. We are changing, and probably faster than ever before. Neville

Subject: Sorry. I meant 'Neolithic Revolution' [nt] From: Neville To: Neville Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 05:25:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Why? From: Sir Dave To: NikW Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 16:08:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't want to quote Dawkins. Why should I. I prefer to think for myself rather than just rely on other people. I just happen to agree with Desmond Morris on this one. If you were to put a group of modern civilised human beings with no technical or agricultural knowledge, into the Amazonian Jungle for a few generations, with no contact with the outside world and no books or records from the outside world, you'd have a hunter gatherer society within a few decades, very similar to the Aboriginal tribes that were found by Captain James Cooke in Australia. Modern day Aboriginals are just as intellegent and civilised as Western people and yet just a few hundred years ago they were living the hunter/gatherer tribal lives of which I speak. That is proof enough for me.

Subject: Re: Why? From: NikW To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 01:58:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, OK, I resign from the argument. If the evidence and argument of others is not significant unless it fits in with your 'thinking for yourself' you are the arbiter of truth. I can't say that I find the gospel according to Sir Dave particularly appealing but then what works (IMO) about F7 is that the egocentric self assuredness of the premified mind is consistently put up for challenge. Nik

Subject: Proof enough for you From: JHB To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 17:07:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, As I said above, people naturally adopt beliefs, and it's unfair to use this forum to challenge them. This forum is here to help people reject Maharaji, and you have done that. The discussion/forum I'm talking about would be for people who would require a little more proof of propositions than you do. I wish you well:) John.

Subject: Fast evolution From: JHB To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 15:13:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, I disagree. I think it's possible for our minds to participate in the evolution process, and thus speed it up. I know this sounds like science fiction, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that the mind can change quickly to adapt to the environment our own minds have created. I don't think it will require genetic engineering to speed up evolution of the human race. I think it's already happening. That was rather avant-garde wasn't it? John.

Subject: Bacteria power. From: AJW To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 09:11:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, The only we we can speed up evolution is to have children at a younger age, and for them to have their children younger. This is why bacteria is the most advanced lifeform on earth, because it breeeds, and hence evolves, really quickly. The internal workings of a bacterial cell are incredibly souped up, supercharged, and much more advanced the cells of us mammalian breeders. Anth, reading a book on genetics.

Subject: The mind can't evolve From: Sir Dave To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 17:20:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Only the brain can evolve in the literal, biological sense, through natural selection. We don't pass on any mental genetic material (none exists) to the next generation but we do pass on our brain biology or a mutation of that. Are Australian aboriginal brains inferior to European people's? I think, given the same level of education as Europeans get, the Aboriginal's mental and intallectual capacity is exactly the same as its European cousins. That's proof enough to me that we are at the same stage of evolution as our caveman ancestors. The Australian Aboriginals were considered to be primative hunter/gatherer tribes-people when they were first encountered - much the same as European early man in the Pleistocene Age. And yet they soon showed that they could learn all of the complicated concepts and ideas that modern European man had learned. Modern man's great knowledge is relearned each and every generation. It is not built into babies when they are born and it is certainly not passed on genetically.

Subject: Re: Fast evolution From: NikW To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 15:44:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: JHB, I think your Fast Evolution should have had first reply to Dave's million year grind but we were obviously composing at the same time. The psychological disjunction that Dave refers to is the subject of much debate amongst psychologists - some would agree we adapt, others take the view that the suppression of our 'natural instincts' in an 'modern' society is the cause of many psychological ills. The question is what constitutes 'natural' as I think Janet has identified, and what constitutes 'modern'. I'm not too worried what the scientific 'truth' might be - I just do not want to see discussions on K, PR and DLM/EV based on the sort of rubbish that has supported the crap over the years. I could say something really naff, like 'its all about process, not results' but I wouldn't dream of doing so. Actually before I got side tracked by Dave's tribes, I was going to disagree with your proposition about another forum - but having read Janet's most excellent two replies - I think I'm persuaded differently. But I am a new poster here and certainly wouldn't want to see any dilution of the f7/f8 presence. Nik

Subject: I don't think we are tribes now From: JHB To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 16:15:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ex-premies, and premies to a lesser extent, have a wide range of beliefs, and a small shared past. The differing beliefs distinguish us, and of course have caused some conflict. What I'm trying to say is that adopting beliefs is normal, probably healthy for most of us, and certainly, in my opinion, fulfills a need. Searching for truth, again in my opinion, requires the willingness to allow all our beliefs to be challenged. Most ex-premies, I suspect, are unwilling to go through this, having just survived the self-challenge of our belief in Maharaji. So I'm thinking of starting a forum for the discussion of truth, where every will be fair game for shooting down. Anybody up for it? John.

Subject: the normal way the mind functions From: janet To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 12:57:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: if you have ever raised a child or observed one as it grows, the baby has experiences, takes in raw data about the world around it, and gradually forms concepts, and then beliefs, about it, as it happens again and again.these devices are the natural way the mind forms generalities, that explain and group raw experiences, and draws working rules from them. periodically, the brain reorganizes its raw material, from just living, and creates or realizes a new category, or a new, larger system that explains previously filed, and new unfiled experiences, and makes larger connections between them. concepts and beleifs are supposed to happen, in the course of ordinary intelligence and growing. and anyone who has experienced a radical event like being robbed, raped, burglarized, having a home burn down, having someone close to them die, being shockingly and utterly betrayed, can attest to, the mind then undergoes a radical shift, a stsate of unfunctioning shock, in which everything has to be questioned and reorganized, in order to absorb and reintegrate the meaning of the new, unexpected, previously unknown experience. all of this is normal. even the abnormal is a normal part of life, and the mind, the brain, the psyche, has means for handling it and finding it a place. meaning is real, but volitional. what a thing means, differs for each person. a rock is just a rock. but we each decide what a thing means, and that can change. we assign meaning. things in and of themselves don't have an innate meaning. our experience with the thing is what leads to what we associate with it, and what meaning it comes to have. and later experience can change and alter what meaning it has for us. one of the reasons it was so hard for us to 'live' what we were told to be as premies, is because we kept being told what to think, all the while our innate minds were already taking in life and arriving at our own private normal, natural conclusions of what to think. and no one else can do the work in our own brains, for us. one brain to one person. that's how the organism operates. so what our own brains were deducing and telling us, was at odds to what we were being told by others to think. and it didnt work. it never will. no one can think inside your mind, for you. only you can. the later stages of experience come out as wisdom. you arent an expert until you not only know how a thing will work, but you know all the ways it won't work, because you've tried them and made all the mistakes there are to make, about it. i think enlightenment might come after wisdom, but I'm not there yet. I can't say I have seen it all, just yet! that's probably the ultimate arrival at the Single Generality that one finally can see in Everything.

Subject: Nice post, Janet.... From: JHB To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 14:16:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .... does that mean you would support a no sacred cows forum?:) John.

Subject: Re: I don't think we are tribes now From: Bolly To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 04:42:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: JHB Hi By that do you mean that as m proved to be a charlatan you feel it is worth looking for ultimate truth elsewhere? Bolly

Subject: Re: I don't think we are tribes now From: JHB To: Bolly Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 10:53:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bolly, No - I don't think 'ultimate truth' has any meaning. I suspect all we can hope for is to identify the things we believe in that are false, and then see what's left. As ex-premies we recognise how difficult it was accepting that our belief in Maharaji was false. It seems that most of us who post here also no longer believe that the experience of 'Knowledge' is anything more than brain activity, although certainly a significant number still believe it is something special, such as our 'true selves'. Others embrace other beliefs which I am sure they will not wish to argue about. For many, holding on to a relatively harmless belief is more comfortable than continuously going through the process of finding out that cherished beliefs were false. What I'm saying is that the evidence over the years on these forums is that some people do want to examine beliefs to see if they hold water, and I was wondering if having a forum where no belief is sacred would allow those who want to argue, like me, a place to do so. So I don't think it is worth looking for ultimate truth, but I do think it is worth trying to identify what is true and what isn't. John.

Subject: EPO totem of the tribe From: Jean-Michel To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 07:08:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John and me and a couple of mysterious others are the priests. I just hope they won't sacrifice the priests in their evolution's process. I like the theory anyway .... makes lot of sense to me!

Subject: Re: The Tribes of Prem and Ex-prem From: NikW To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 03:36:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dave, 'Premies and Maharaji are a classic case of a tribe with a leader and elders.' - Well that's maybe how it pans out now but it was a pretty weird arrangement to have as your Tribal Leader - a 13 year old boy. Your analysis is too reductive as to the complexity of 'tribe' but if your starting point is Desmond Morris it would not be surprising if a rather banal conclusion was reached. In human pre history 'the tribe' is something far more than a mere coming together of common interests - it is the crucible of shared artistic expression, of the regulation of morality, of the development of politics, the formalisation of warfare and social domination and everything else that we might term - culture. I like this Forum - but to place it as a tribe in some archaeo anthropological sense is absurd and an insult to what Tribes are and were. The Naked Ape, like so much else of its contemporary New Ageism, for all its pretensions depended on reducing distant cultures both geographic and historic to cartoon proportions. DLM/EV was far too derivative of pre existing thinking and so wholly uncreative in its own existence to develop any kind of distinctive culture. I think it's so devoid of character and internal energy that I'm not evenhappy with its description as a cult; an analogy with a somewhat inept, and in this effect, fraudulent, mutal assurance business seems to me to be the best organisational description of PRs (and ours ?) legacy. Nik

Subject: Re: The Tribes of Prem and Ex-prem From: Livia To: NikW Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 04:20:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually Nik I thought Sir Dave's interpretation of the premies as a tribe to be very interesting. Don't just chuck it out! Shared artistic expression - think back to the early days if you were there. We had Shri Hans Graphics from where the artistic found a place in which to express themseleves in a visual sense - even if it was in the context of a somewhat lurid publication. We had countless bands, notably The Anand Band, Blue Aquarius, One Foundation and the Apostles to name but a few. A lot of these bands contained extremely talented musicians and for a while the inspiration really did flow and some great songs were written, particularly by the like of one John Pring and many others. We had actors - Living Waters in the UK and dancers - Krishna Lila in the USA, who presented some rather lovely plays and dances. For a while there really was some creative expression. Then you mention the regulation of morality - again, yes. In the early days meat, fish, eggs, alcohol and drugs were forbidden and thousands of us complied - for a while anyway. A lot of premies didn't touch meat again for decades. Many premies still don't, and I know one who although now an ex still doesn't eat eggs - old habits die hard. Sex was outlawed in the ashram and thousands complied with that too. To a large extent, again particularly in the early days I think a lot of premies really did try to keep to what they saw as 'high moral standards'. We tried to lead what we thought were 'spiritual lives' and the ideal was to live as lovingly and as selflessly as possible. The development of politics - well obviously in primitive tribes you don't have democratically elected modern-style political parties. Politics in a cruder and more basic sense means power and the use of it, and within the premie world there were certainly power politics with the inexorable rise of the 'honcho', the 'elite' instructors, the perceived higher status of the ashram premies as compared to the 'householders', the community co-ordinators etc. There was politics alright. The formalisation of warfare and social dominance - a harder one to find an exact parallel but how about premies' perceived superiority to every other 'spiritual' group around to the extent that we labelled all the others cults but thought that we alone had access to the truth? The way some of us would engage in arguments with Christians and others in an attempt to 'bring them to Knowledge'? So to see us as a tribe is no way absurd. Obviously in a primitive sense, yes, but I don't think Dave was trying to compare us to a primitive tribe anyway. And a tribe doesn't have to be primitive (and historic) to be termed a tribe, surely? More on all this later Livia

Subject: Re: The Tribes of Prem and Ex-prem From: Sir Dave To: NikW Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 04:14:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was talking about the tribal instinct which is in everybody. Your words about tribes, thus: ''In human pre history 'the tribe' is something far more than a mere coming together of common interests - it is the crucible of shared artistic expression, of the regulation of morality, of the development of politics, the formalisation of warfare and social domination and everything else that we might term - culture.'' If you transpose that description onto the tribe of Maharaji then I think you'll find much of it fits quite nicely. However, the tribal instinct is far simpler than that. The evolved tribal instinct was set long before we could read or write or do anything more sophisticated than hunt animals and gather roots and berries. It was a basic necessity for survival over the millions of years before we got smart and started making tools and houses and feeding ourselves with agricultural produce. We can romanticise about tribal histories but basically it's a gut instinct in all of us and it's a strong instinct that stems from the need to survive, just as fight or flight, sex or food is. Humans will always group into tribes of some kind. I was merely stating that obvious fact.

Subject: Lack of a distinctive culture in EV [nt] From: Neville--good point about the To: NikW Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 04:08:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Sectarian and Tribal From: NikW To: Neville--good point about the Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 13:13:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave-: You can't have it both ways, either you are using Morris's evolutionary tribal reference or you are not. Tribal spirit means what ? the tendency for people to group around a common interest ? If that is the answer then your argument becomes circular. I think what you are suggesting has more to do with sectarianism than tribalism - the tendency for those who refuse to engage with others who have differing views, to go off in the company of those who share their views, for the purpose of mutually supporting each others prejudice. I do not share your view on the nugatory nature of ancient tribalism but then I don't think much of Morris's Naked Ape - we're pretty damned hairy and instead of Desmond's reductive stance I'd prefer to look in the other direction and see our ancestors and genetic cousins as hairier people. One thing I never liked about the PR world view was the Christian bequest of a humanocentric Universe, I tend to chatter my teeth aggressively when I come across it. Goes with my heavy eye brow ridges. Livia -: Your elaboration has the merit of completeness - but I find it far too neat. Firstly you miss my point about DLM/EV etc. having no unique culture ( Neville approved, thanks Neville !). Yes there were artists and singers and all sorts of creatives, but the culture they expressed was not one produced by the collective or even partial genius of DLM/EV etc., all that was expressed had been brought in from the outside. For all the spirit, energy and soul of premies, plus no doubt in many cases real personal talent what was produced was an embarrassing melange of Christian happy clappy and sub Hindu tabla rattling with a backdrop painted in disco gel bubbles and an acid enhanced glow. Yes DLM was a departmentalised organisation - so is any Ford factory,that does not make Ford a tribal society. And in fact such departmentalism is rare even within present day tribal societies, the only significant division being male hunters & warriors, and women not hunters or warriors; every one makes music, everyone - if there is figurative art, makes art, everyone builds, everyone cooks, everyone cares for children. Departmentalism is a function of industrial societies - DLM /EV has more in common with Ford than any ancient tribal people. I do agree that DLM would fit into Desmond Morris's naff and puerile theorising but my point of disagreement with Dave is that the actuality of the tribe in human evolution is far more than Morris reduced it to. My experience of DLM (lets exclude K and PR just for the moment) does seem to have been different from yours Livia. The level of parochialism in UK DLM, the pre-eminence of London and within London, the unseen hierarchies, produced quite different experiences for different premies. All of the creatives that you mention have little meaning to me, all of the departments had little relevance to me ever - and I think that applied to the general population of premies that I encountered. If DLM had been a tribe we - the great unwashed would have been much more part of what was going on but vast numbers of us weren't, we were satsang fodder, service fodder, donation fodder. I'm not complaining - it's what many of us wanted - a psychological welfare system; turn up and be doled out satsang, service and the opportunity to part with dosh. This lack of involvement would never be sustainable amongst a tribal society. In fact the only real parallel for DLM/EV is feudalism, every one centred around a lordship, some sat at high table some consigned to the stables or hovels against the castle walls, no one daring to break the set up for fear that something worse would replace it. Apologies if this is harsh in tone - it aint meant that way but to suggest that anything related to DLM/EV has the breadth, strength or value that has been provided to human evolution via our tribal past, is to grant PR's vehicles something that they never possessed. Nik

Subject: DLM/EV and feudalism From: Marianne To: NikW Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 19:25:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Nik. In fact, the similarity between feudalism and the way the cult was/is run has been discussed here before. Especially the relationships between the lords and the serfs. Marianne

Subject: Re: DLM/EV and feudalism From: NikW To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 07:01:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marianne, I tried searching on feudalism and serfs, but nought came up, but I can certainly see it as a big part of the DLM/EV experience. Having thought about it a bit more I think my experience is more of DLM/EV being something Industrial, its tempting to describe it as Corporate but I think that's too sophisticated for what DLM was about. The best model I can think of is late 19th Century 'factory' organisation, it provides for the division of labour, the separation of roles, the creation of hierarchies -Overseers and Mangers, with the Family Owners at the top. But perhaps I'm just giving a context to my Ludite tendancies. Nik

Subject: Re: Sectarian and Tribal From: Neville To: NikW Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 14:32:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Given the sheer breadth of talent/ resources available it would have been truly astonishing if DLM had not produced a lot of good music. My impression--and I would need this confirmed by people who stayed in the cult--is that this burst of creativity dropped off after the early 70s. It seems to me that a fatigue set in quite rapidly. Neville

Subject: Sir Knight has the links! From: SlobaDoc To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 22:40:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: between desire and gratification. That I can guarantee!! Why, just the other day he posted a link on the forum and I spent many interesting hours digesting and desiring until, a short time after arriving at just the right website, I found true and real gratification. ;) My only advice is to make sure a box of tissues is handy while surfing. =)

Subject: To answer Falcon's question From: Janelle To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 14:45:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Falcon, I said I made my last post here but I had to answer your question. I posted here because I am an ex-premie. I happened to make a comment about money & contributions (which was true - I've seen the books many times) and the swords of paranoia from the 'real ex-premies' slashed me a thousand times. I guess you (not you personally)don't recognize that the 'cult' that is constantly referred to on this forum is more alive in the ex-premies than with the PWK's. You just went from one cult to another. But this one is filled with resentment, hatred and negativity, and when I see the amount of time that some of you spend here, all I can say is that life is flying by - do something constructive with it. Sounds like you already wasted enough of it in a cult. No need to bother with a response - I won't be reading it.

Subject: This 'Janelle' is a fake From: gerry To: Janelle Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 14:57:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This post by 'Janelle' is the last straw for 'her.' This person has posted under other names and when they start using flaming phrases like 'this is a cult,' 'too much anger, negativity,' etc., you can pretty much be sure this is a deliberate distruptor and ex-premie or not, doth earn the name 'troll.' So once again please don't feed the trolls and I'm blocking this one. Thanks for your kind consideration.

Subject: sycophantism/narcissism From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 12:27:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been reading this book about Picasso and Dora Maar and all the people around them; unsurprisingly there are sycophants everywhere hanging on Picasso's every word, which seems to turn him into a bit of a monster. Anyway, it got me thinking. Here I go again on another psychobabble rant - don't say I didn't warn you - this time it's about about sycophantism and narcissism. Are they two sides of the same coin? A number of posts over the last few months have dealt with the preponderance of narcissism, both in Maharaji and in premies. There is a brilliant website that describes the attributes of narcissism, and how it can lead to general dysfunction, particularly in relationships - a problem disproportionately common in premies. A lot of premies can most certainly be described as narcissists. They often suffer from low self esteem and the path of Knowledge gives them a brilliant opportunity for indulging in narcissism: the hours of focussing on one's 'self', the dwelling on one's own 'relationship with Maharaji' and the preoccupation with all of this, often to the detriment of other pursuits. And sitting comfortably with all of this is an enormous amount of sycophantism towards Maharaji, who is seen as in some way 'ideal'. Does the drive towards intense projection (leading to sycophanism) generally stem from low self esteem? I think so. Does narcissism (the need to fill oneself with supplies of approval from outside) stem from low self esteem? Undoubtedly. Is there a tendency in many premies towards narcissism and self obsession accompanied by an almost teenage sort of hero-worship? I should say so. Comments, anyone? Livia

Subject: Re: sycophantism/narcissism From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 09:00:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a bona fide personality disorder so I hesitate to agree that a lot of premies have this. There may be traits which mimic the disorder but it's difficult to know who is a real narcissistic personality, other than the leader of the cult, without knowing each cult member individually. It's a disorder which is most difficult to cure through any means because an individual with this disorder is so self-absorbed they believe the world revolves around them and they crave adoration. In Maharaji's case or in the case of any personality cult leader this craving for adoration is brought to extremes. I don't think this is true about premies. Perhaps there are a few, but I think it's very important not to label people with personality disorders which require a professional diagnosis. The traits which I've observed here during the past few years indicate to me that premies suffer from cult programming (which obviously has reduced self-esteem to zero) because of the demand for focus outside themselves toward another human under the guise that they are focusing 'within.' That 'within' is also an attempt to surrender to the outside individual, which becomes a double bind and turns the devotee into an mindless and confused individual with belief systems that are clearly warped as a result of extended exposure to the cult leader. The component of cult programming cannot be disregarded when examining the narcissistic cult leaders and their followers. It seems very clear that Maharaji has this disorder and I believe it started long before he became Perfect Master as a child. His family was clearly violent and extraordinarily dysfunctional. He was living with Shri Hans who was adored by his nuclear famly and the closest worshippers, along with the masses who adored and deferred exclusively to the Shri Hans. I pity the child Prem who has said that he dodged his violent older brothers who fought constantly and often violently. I would venture to speculate that the father was absent during much of m's early developmental years of childhood (age 1 to 5) which added to the mix of dyfunction within the immediate family which was a setting that was ideal for M's becoming an NPD. Maharaji has said that as a little boy he'd sit in the corner wishing to get out. What that little boy grew up into is another subject altogether. He's been an adult for a long time and is consequently responsible for his behavior which as we know is far less than perfect. I think it is safe to say the cult leader indeed has NPD. In trying to understand what happens to a person upon entering, accepting the religion, and becoming a full-blown cult member, I don't believe narcissistic traits fit well into this model. I can't see how it would ''work'' for a congregation of cult members to also be narcissistic. Perfectionism is a trait of many other disorders which cannot be eliminated in this discussion. Drug and alcohol addition are models of those who require perfectionism. Perfectionism is a taught behavior and within the Maharajism cult perfectionism is taught by Maharaji to his devotees in order to keep premies in their place. This involves thought reform, demonizing the mind and ego, teaching followers to lose their personalities. If self-esteem was low before entering the cult surely this brings a fully programmed devotee to ground zero in the self-esteem department. I believe you have written some interesting ideas on the connection between sycophantism and narcissism, however, I do caution you not to broad brush the premies with a personality disorder as serious as NPD. It's important to leave that to the professionals. I understand the connection you've made, but don't agree. Love, Cynthia Narcissitic Personality Disorder www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe07.html

Subject: Addendum to Livia... From: Cynthia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 13:51:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My post above is meant in no way to discount your observations and please don't let my opinions get in the way of a vigorous discussion of your initial post. Love, Cynthia

Subject: To Cynthia From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 04:45:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia - thanks for your kind remarks, and please don't worry - I didn't feel you were discounting my observations at all. Actually I should have expressed myself more clearly by explaining that by narcissism I didn't mean the full-blown personality disorder, but rather, tendencies in that direction. I think we've probably all got leanings towards one or other disorder - it's what makes us all unique after all! And some of us tend more towards narcissism. I think probably Maharaji has it to a pathological degree and possibly some of the premies have tendencies, which are fostered and encouraged by the self-obsession and sycophantism they get into re Maharaji. In fact I think any latent narcissisim could even be made worse by years in the cult, as premies seem to be encouraged more and more to focus on him and on themselves, to the implicit downgrading/exclusion of other relationships and pursuits. Not healthy. So please don't worry Cynthia - I did make it sound as if I was referring to the full-blown disorder as described on that website, and I hope this clears up any confusion! Love to you, Livia XX

Subject: Hey Cynthia From: Vicki To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 10:00:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you have any information on what happens to children of narcisstic parents? How it affects them?

Subject: Children of Narcissists... From: Cynthia To: Vicki Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 11:32:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Vicki: I just found this link. Aside from my personal experiences which you all know too way much about anyway, :) I just found this website which asks adults questions about their parents. When I did a Google search using narcissistic parents + children I came up with many sites for 'adult children of narcissistic parents.' I also found this other site ' http://mentalhelp.net/books/books.php?id=1127&type=de It's a review of a book by Nina W. Brown entitled Children of the Self-Absorbed. Nina Brown's book appears to be a self-help book for assisting those with narcissistic parents in determining if, in fact, they have narcissistic parents, then goes on to explain how to cope with the parent(s)s. Sounds interesting, but I've already read too many of these books. I have many links on psychology for quick reference, but I don't read this stuff too much anymore. The Questions on the Invisible Ones: How do you feel when you are with your parents? Do they devalue you in some way, perhaps subtly? Do they make you responsible for their well-being? Do they make you feel guilty because you do not live up to their expectations? Do you feel as though you do not exist? Do you wish that you were somewhere else? Do you feel 'taken-over'? Are your opinions discounted? When you speak about yourself is their immediate response a focus on themselves...perhaps they tell you about a similar happening to themselves... and that is more important than what is happening for you. Do you feel that you have to agree with everything they say? These questions describe what difficulties such children face living with a narcissist. Funny (odd) this thread is here now. I've been having bio-Dad dreams this week. This morning I woke myself up by yelling really loud to him: THAT'S QUITE ENOUGH!!! Pretty good, I think. Now my subconscious is telling him off...a good sign. Love, Cynthia The Invisible Ones www.n-courage.net/Narcissistic%20Parents.htm

Subject: Re: sycophantism/narcissism From: cq To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 06:39:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You've hit on a connection that very few others appear to have recognised (if an internet search on the words narcissist and sycophant are anything to go by). The narcissist is said to love him/herself. IMO, the term needs further definition: i.e. the narcissist loves whatever they imagine to be a reflection of their projection of true self. To this end, submission to a figurehead like the Maha satisfies both the sycophant's sense of inferiority, AND the narcissist's need to associate with someone they imagine to represent a superior ideal they'd like to identify themselves with. This idea needs work.

Subject: Re: sycophantism/narcissism From: Livia To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 11:26:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cq, yes, yes YES!!! I'm glad you've picked up on the connection between the two apparent opposites, because it's been taking shape in my head over the last few days - since I've been reading the Picasso book in fact. Actually I'm just finishing the book now and to my relief the author realises how much he's been used by Dora Maar and how sycophantic he's been towards her, and has just written her a letter in which he attempts to reclaim his dignuty and sense of self. Needless to say he never hears from her again. The usual response from a narcissist who never ever cared about you in the first place. Hard not to see the parallels....and yes, the idea definitely needs some work! Love, Livia

Subject: To cq - addendum From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 11:28:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh and I forgot to mention - and this ties up with your post - Dora Maar is obsessed with the idea of perfectibility and is in fact deeply 'religious'. Hmmm. Livia

Subject: This might be interesting ... From: cq To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 08:36:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: haven't had time to delve into this much, but the attached bulletin board has some posts which appear to touch on some aspects of narcissism and submissiveness - if not sycophancy. "Biological Narcissism Bulletin Board" (!) members5.boardhost.com/ABenis/

Subject: and the thrill of seeing my 'name' in print From: Narcissism To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 00:25:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I certainly wouldn't want to be abnegating any apposite propinquities.

Subject: Sounds painful, Narcissus From: cq To: Narcissism Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 11:07:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You mean your doctor hasn't advised you to have your apposite propinquities abnegated yet? ;)

Subject: Re: sycophantism/narcissism From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 14:05:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Liv, this is a sketch reply; i had been thinking about a connected matter, that of 'projection', so I don't have time to dovetail it into your thread succinctly, but a few sequitur ideas were: If one accepts the notion that the divinity we percieved within M was a projection, then it exudes in two forms. 1. the projection of our desires onto M. i.e. we needed a savior /father figure/ cosmic being with all the answers so badly that we superimposed those qualities upon the form of M. Thus when he acted 'out of character' (booze etc), we freaked out, because that wasn't part of the pallette of qualities we projected; he suddenly became a mix of everything we wanted and everything he already was! The two constructs were in conflict and we fled in confusion....or 2. We projected that part of ourselves which was truly 'divine' upon M, because we were unable to percieve it directly within ourselves. In this sense, M acted as both catalyst and mirror, to give us a stronger sense of what we already were, but were unable to recognise. When we learned of M's dysfunction we again freaked, because our requirement of him was that he only miorrored those parts of our being that we considered sacred and hallowed; we didn't need to be reminded that we could also be drunk, abusive and arrogant. Narcissts and sycophants are mutually supporting a false image of an ideal that may only exist in mythology; the 'perfect being' and the 'adoring devotee', each projecting the desired image upon the other for the survival of both. But the real world is a different place, ultimately false images fall, or to be more prosaic, every one's shit smells the same.

Subject: addendum From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 12:42:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Think I should add that the thing that got me thinking about all of this was the author's (one James Lord) almost pitiful low self esteem and desperate need to be loved/recognised by these two people he attributed with virtually divine qualities - Picasso and his one-time mistress (and fellow artist herself) Dora Maar. He hangs onto their every word as if it is some kind of divine utterance. He is desperate to spend as much time with them as is humanly possible, insinuating his way into their company by any means fair or foul. He describes to his friends in great detail everything either of them ever says to him. He cravenly tries to serve their every whim, in order to cull favour. And in reality he is terrified of both of them, and terrified more than anything else of losing their approval. Of course all of this is incredibly common in premies. Oh and by the way, they both play with him like a toy. In a way it was hard for them not to, although ideally they should have resisted the (all too sadly human) impulse. The trouble was, he saw himself as nowhere near their equal, so what could they do with him? On the other hand, Francoise Gilot, another mistress of Picasso's, had a healthy self esteem herself. She wasn't particularly impressed by him although she loved him - she was too healthy herself to treat him as anything other than human. In the end she left him - because he had treated her badly. She valued herself too much to stay.

Subject: Re: addendum From: NikW (Previously Blondie) To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 16:40:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Narcissim certainly, it provides a psychological bunker where the hurt and damage psyche can hide. K, M, PR, DLM, EV all provide(d) ready material to support the bunker that any messed up kid, shattered hippy or other late 20th century lost soul, felt they had to construct to ensure psychological survival. The knowledge (sic) that I, in the private world of meditation can still be a perfect soul, so different from all those mundane beings outside, is an addiction I fear I will never break. M was The Man, and I needed just a single hit for a life times supply of anaesthetic. Cue - The Clash 'its hateful, but I'm so grateful to be nowhere'. Nik

Subject: The Clash!!! From: hamzen To: NikW (Previously Blondie) Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 16:01:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Blimey, someone without reptilian retro music taste here, if still retro, shurely some misstake. And not a bad choice of quote, and source. How far did you get beyond the clash Nik, like your posts by the way, quite spunky.

Subject: Re: The Clash!!! From: NikW To: hamzen Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 02:19:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hamzen, Glad you liked the posts. Spunky ??? 'fraid I feel anything but !!!. After leaving the ashram and trying to live like a good premie (in the world - all that maya !) in '75, I eventually ended up working in the Red Cow in Hammersmith circa 76/77. Pretty much every night the pub was filled with 300 leaping and spitting punks; for me the Clash were a later sophistication, my true nature was revealed at a double bill of 999 and The Vibrators -still bloody annoyed after 25 years though, that I missed The Jam's first night, that gig even got a mention on their first album. Beyond all that with the economic and emotional demands of parenthood I've not progressed much in musical taste, Nirvana having impressed me most but I never got over Kurt's encounter with a doubled barrel, though I've listened to Korn now and then. I've an offspring who tortures me with Craig David - but I find singing Dylan at her a good counter. Nik

Subject: Re: addendum From: Bolly To: NikW (Previously Blondie) Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 17:00:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Blondie well well, Addicted? Never break away? Bunker? Are you saying that you feel trapped? Well take a look around make a little move then another. It's a big world lots to do with all that time you'd have to play with if guru stuff wasn't cluttering up your life. Regards Bolly

Subject: Narcissists Bunker From: Nik To: Bolly Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 02:08:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bolly, No not trapped - nor have I had the Guru stuff cluttering up my life - until reading at Ex P and here some months ago I had not had any contact with PR in over two decades, to my knowledge I haven't met a pemie, ex or otherwise since 1979. I used the image of the bunker to describe a place of psychological dependency - which is what I view WHAT I MADE of K and DLM. I could also sum it up in the phrase 'you can take the boy out of the Ashram BUT you can not take the Ashram out of the boy.' As a messed up kid, I had good reason to seek the sanctuary that K provided, the trouble with sanctuaries is that they rarely provide a rebuilding process that enables one to leave. The anaesthetic purpose of Hindu religous practise is frequently understated but in India it is precisely this use that is so attractive - the escape from a life of material discomfort to a non material place of endless love etc. etc. The Western premies bought into the ego boosting (mother's milk to the narcissist) road to the elevation to God Head promise of K. However what many of us took primarily, was the oportunity to escape the horrors of our internal worlds and our failures in the external world, through the self hypnotic anaesthesia of meditation and the relationship avoiding, devoteeship. For me the negative power of K has nothing to do with the determinate pressure of 'a cult', it is the personal addiction to a false, internalised state for which there is no balancing philosophical challenge provided by the 'guru', co-devotees or wider society. It is notable I think that most of those who post as exes have managed to develop identifiable significance in their lives - challenges by way of careers, homes and multi faceted ways of living. By definition perhaps, there are few premies - exed or not whose lives have been full of failure, unhappiness and poverty who are either willing, or able to post on the net. If K and the symbolism provided by PR provide an anaesthetic to a miserable life, it sureley requires an heroic effort to give that up. My guess is that of that generation of PRs 'burnt cookies' - the vast majority are carrying around their K bunker as a place of last retreat from the difficulties of their lives - it's not Amaroo or EV or whatever that keeps most of us (who were anyway semi detached from early on) linked into the K/PR value system - it's the pain and discontent that drove us into it in the first place. Thanks for your acknowledgement Bolly - the blond hair went years ago - so I'd quite like to forget my silly joke - if you'll all let me. Nik

Subject: Re: Narcissists Bunker From: PatD To: Nik Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 04:40:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nik Some very interesting points you bring up there. It was noticeable to me at the last few 'events' I attended that some of the premies had reverted to being hippies,not that I'm bothered,but more significantly maybe, that no one seemed to have that once so common blissed out look. On the plane from London to the '96 Rome jubilee bash I was sitting next to a guy who looked like rip van winkle fallen asleep at a Greatful Dead concert. We were nearly there before we recognised each other from a premie centre around '73. He immediately pulled out a spliff & wanted to fire it up in celebration but I persuaded him it wasn't a good idea. We went around Rome a bit together,me wearing a suit,we got some strange looks,especially when he asked me to buy him(I speak the lingo)an hallucinogenic cactus from a market stall. That guy will never buy a computer.

Subject: Speaking of bunkers From: Neville To: PatD Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 14:22:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A question for those trained in psychology: Is there not a *masochistic* component to DLM/EV/PRF, rather like that attributed to the German people under Hitler? Neville

Subject: Re: Speaking of bunkers From: Vicki To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 10:08:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't have any trained background but you certainly hit the nail on the head in my opinion. The last few programs I attended before jumping ship a year ago, I was seeing it more blatently. At first I thought it was just the odd occurance, but then when whacked by the finance people during service stints, it was quite obvious something was amiss. The more I looked around, the more masochistic the atmosphere seemed to be. There was a real mean spiritedness amongst the EV people and locals who thought they were big wig wannabe's. The nice ones who didn't act like that stuck out like sore thumbs. They became the minority. Even the lady who is head of PPRF was the nicest, in how she came to the community and treated the premies with respect. The crack in the armour came when she was disussing outside professions. Raised a big red flag. But in the corporate world, it always comes down to the CEO, the big cheese. He/She sets the tone for the entire organization. Always.

Subject: FA- Spam Alert. Where's the pooper scooper? nt From: Tonette To: Djuro Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 08:08:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Re: FA- Spam Alert. Where's the pooper scooper? nt From: HOOVER To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 14:45:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: HOPEFULLY FOLLOWING YOU

Subject: Re: FA- Spam Alert. Where's the pooper scooper? nt From: Disinfactant To: HOOVER Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 20:22:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right on. The smell of the T is truly awful

Subject: And you cannot spell. From: Tonette To: Disinfactant Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 08:59:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Knowledge sure has turned you into one stupid SOB!

Subject: who...where? From:   To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 08:27:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not sleeping here, Tonette, but I am pulling most of the watches myself these days. Seems like my top wrangler sign up with another outfit outta San Francisco. Just can't keep 'em on the chapparal these days.

Subject: Dermots post reveals all! From: Bryn To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 03:05:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Permit me to express my enthusiasm for Dermot's insights by reposting him up here in the spotlight. Hope this isn't an infringment of some kind.Bryn. HE WRITES: Just recently.The absurdity of it all. Not superficially or anything, it really just occurred to me- the whole tragicomic upbringing Prem Pal must have gone through. Born into a weird, fanatical, bunch of zealots –a mongrel mix of Hinduism, Sikhism and ShriHansism with a bunch of pink robed MaDhatmas thrown in for good measure. Hundreds of thousands of Indian Hindus adding Shri Hans to their pantheon of Gods. Prem Pal going to his Western, Catholic school- just another kid on the block until he gets back home and sees his Dad whacking some Premie or some Manmutt with a big stick whenever it turned him on to do so. Attending Ginormous events and put on stage like some Victorian freak show act. Then as he gets to his early teens hankering to leave home and explore the world including it’s sex, drugs and rock & roll. I can relate to that, I couldn’t wait to leave home at 16 and move down South and try a bit of this and a bit of that. So there he is in the West speaking his Ind-lish till it slowly turned into American. Being revered by a bunch of travelling pink robers and a growing flock of stupid hippies…moi to be included….just a young kid looking for a buzz but just so happened to be “The Lord of the Universe” too. All this time you just can’t help but sympathise with the kid and what a weird, weird trip he was born into. From the start he was used to churning out boring , bog standard, Hindu based Satsang but as he got to the West he realised he had to change it. His ulcer, his drinking, Mishler advising him to sort himself out and come clean…his dithering and then his hankering again for plain old total adulation. Gradually, he gets more Westernised and yes his accent becomes bearable and yes he develops a little bit of charisma and he finds out it’s enough for him to just wing it and build some real wealth in the process too. He gets married to an older woman at 16. Hahaha, it keeps on rolling in it’s weird fashion. Somewhere along the line, though ,the sympathy becomes mis-placed. He’s had his chances to come clean and admit so much but instead he twists and turns but always careful to use a nod, wink and innuendo so that the die-hards in the West and the Indians back home still have a suggestion of “Lila”. Still can carry on….he and his followers forever needing each other. No one really prepared to look at the whole crazy farce with fresh eyes and let go of the pretence. Besides, there’s still a buzz (of sorts) to be had ….maybe there is something in it they convince themselves ….Master and devotee afraid to let go of each other and face the vast universe alone. Why bother? It’s safe where they are. He exhorts them to be always grateful, they aren't used to anything else. Real reflection? Real questioning? It's far easier to leave no room for doubt. It's gone too far to contemplate change ....even if it's change for the better. Healthy change. Change that would be good for Prem Pal as well as his Premies. And no one has hardly noticed that the bog standard Hindu Satsang has evolved into Western New age bubblegum-speak. ….and life rolls on …..soon be time for Amaroo.

Subject: Re: Dermots post reveals all! From: Jerry To: Bryn Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 13:09:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Somewhere along the line, though ,the sympathy becomes mis-placed. You said it. I'll never feel sorry for Maharaji. Do you think he feels sorry for HIMSELF? Hahahahaha!

Subject: What's fascinating to me is this.. From: La-ex To: Bryn Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 08:44:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The whole thing depends so much upon your belief system concerning M, which then creates your frame of reference..... For instance, from Dermots description of M as a mere mortal with an unusual background coming of age at a unique time, the story is interesting, strange, amusing, sad etc. The story makes a lot of sense, and ultimately paints M as a strange sort of character...greedy, deluded, opportunistic, confused,sad, pathetic, a victim in some respects,also funny and human at times....but ultimately as some sort of 'spiritual Michael Jackson' who is to be reprimanded and pitied more than anything else...a victim who eventually victimized his followers as well, and continues to 'wing it' to cover his past and keep the money rolling in, in some sort of sad, pathetic dysfunctional way... On the other hand, if you believe the 'Lord' version of M, none of this applies... He is the Master, you are the unquestioning student. Life works the way the Master says it does. Anything that contradicts this is either- 1-Mind 2-Doubts 3-Lila So basically, it all works the way M says it does. Anything that deviates from that standard formula,gets put into a category created by and for M to deal with it... And if at some time in the future M needs to revise history, he can recreate a new video with premie 'stars' to revise it...of course that video will only be shown to the faithful and not be available to the general public to dissect and deconstruct it... The 'Lord' version puts a magical haze over the whole thing and has no need for critical examination. The 'regular' version paints a much different story.

Subject: Yup. Thats the whole issue.. From: Bryn To: La-ex Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 02:39:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...Is he or isn't he? 'Is you is or is you aint my baby?' (old song) Personally I have grown up and am of the 'one body, one identity' school of thought. I have suffered too long with bids for partnership from Jesus, Muther, Fatha, Guru Ji, plus assorted fantasy identities of my own creation. It's a relief to be steering my own ship. It is a fascinating issue I agree La-ex. The point you start from in the early phase of the relationship is all-defining I think. Thereafter it seems self perpetuating. Those early moments..and then its twenty five years later! Ho Ho Ho. If I was a premie now, I'd stop. love Bryn

Subject: (with apologies to Louis Jordan - 1944) From: cq To: Bryn Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 06:52:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (with apologies to Louis Jordan - 1944) Is you is or is you ain't my baby? The way you're actin' lately makes me doubt. (are) you ...still my baby-baby? Seems the flame in your heart's done gone out. A guru is a creature that has always been strange Just when you're sure of one He goes and makes a change ...'

Subject: Thanks for that cq.(nt) From: Bryn To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 04:26:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: gh

Subject: to cq From: AV To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 10:21:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: or....'if youre so smart, how come you aint rich?' L.Jordan AV (still scratching a living, like the rest of us chickens....fish fry anyone?)

Subject: Well, if it's any consolation From: cq To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 10:59:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'when you ain't got nothin', you got nothin' to lose' - Bob Dylan. Actually, I wonder if anyone's been both sides of the tracks - i.e. rich and then poor, (or vice-versa) and regretted it? One thing's for sure - being born into money (like the Maha perhaps?) doesn't make you smart. And being poor doesn't mean you're necessarily dumb (unless you're dumb enough to give all your earning potential away to a 'master' like M!).

Subject: In the middle From: PatD To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 12:26:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I knew someone whose father was rich beyond the dreams of avarice until he was 15(early '30's)....then he went from a mansion to a flat in New York & a job in a bakery,his father having abandoned the family after following the market down to hell....then many years later courtesy of WW2 he ended up in England & had a son who grew up to marry the daughter of a guy who was rich beyond the dreams of avarice...........that man was extremely seriously fucked up. Just going off at a tangent.

Subject: Re: Well, if it's any consolation From: AV To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 11:04:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I liked the line: 'freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose' lose your marbles? :)

Subject: as it happens, yes ... From: cq To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 12:30:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I did 'lose my marbles' for a while. But, having opted out of both premiedom and Rajneeshism, I think I've managed to recover at least a few of them ...

Subject: Re: as it happens, yes ... From: AV To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 14:49:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: glad to hear it....Im not sure mine were ever in the same place at one time for long enough to make an impression! ....don't let a pound of your own eels writhe in gravy......

Subject: to AV From: Bolly To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 08:59:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Haven't been here for a few days, how are things? I just saw your reply to a post from a few days back. For what it's worth remnding myself not to meditate is more rewarding than being a zombie in the fold. When you have time contact me through the usual channels. The kettle is on, and the doilys are ironed. Look after yourself love Bolly

Subject: Bolly, meditating doesn't From: Anthony To: Bolly Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 01:58:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: automatically make you a zombie. A good meditation in the morning is uplifting for the rest of the day. Also, if you want, you can go to the pub with a clear conscience and drag your consciousness down again slowly, because you've got some slack. It's not a choice of being either a gopi or a gardener. I have a good meditate, feel pretty good (in touch with my soul a bit more than usual), then space out beautifully. Enjoy the piano (I like playing Piaf and Kurt Weill). And keep the doylies ironed. Cheers, Anthony

Subject: Re: Bolly, meditating doesn't From: Bolly To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 08:17:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anthony, Glad you enjoy a rich and varied life. Do you really play Piaf and Kurt Weil? that would be good to hear. I am not a piano player but feel obliged to keep the keys excersised as my children are disipating thier talents and neglecting to practise. It may be true that there is a space between gopi and gardener, there are though only twenty four hours in a day. You may find doing the techniques m taught you to be of value in your life. Whether it has been in mine is debatable. Perhaps some people are temprementally suited to centring themselves that way. Apart from m I doubt that any other spiritual guide (I use that term with reservations) would ask all followers to perform an hour or two (I believe when I joined the cult it was one in the morning and one at night) of 'meditation' every day regardless of other commitments. During the past few years several traumatic events unrelated to each other or to the cult have occurred in my life. Meditation was of no relevance and as there were exhausting tasks to attend to it took up time that should have been more usefully used in sleeping etc. Some people dangle bits of expensive wire hanging on polished sticks into rivers and call it fishing , it occupies an afternoon and gives scope for reflection. Premiedom and I think secret meditation does not integrate in the wider social sphere, it's practitioners when the need to belong is most acute. For me work colleagues and friends outside the cult never m were of great value in seeing me through some very harrowing situations. On the road to recovery the whole set up seemed extraneous to any meaningfull engagement in lifes great tapestry. Each to their own love Bolly

Subject: Re: Bolly, meditating doesn't From: AV To: Bolly Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 13:43:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bolly, I too had similar experiences of traumatic times in my life when premies and m were about as much use as a chocolate fireguard. It was my 'non-spiritual (so called) friends who actually came to the rescue.....more than one occasion i have bee EXTREMELY close to the edge and the Premie I was with at the time (an instructor on the other occaision) were in a little world of their own; a totally insensitive self-absorbed bubble, where my own cares were an irrelevance. Incidentally, if you want to chill out at the piano, some impressionist stuff is v. cool and not too technically taxing; Satie's Gymnopodies are accessible and rewarding, if a little familar. I use meditation now the way I would a prayer; maybe in the early hours of the morning if I awake at 3 or 4, just nice to rest with my spirit in the wee small hours. Love AV

Subject: Re: Bolly, meditating doesn't From: Bolly To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 16:13:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV Hi When I say I don't play the piano I mean beyond page 13 of Teach Yourself I'm lost. I love listening to others playing especially when they really enjoy what they do and do it well. I grew up in a house full of noisy people and books, my musical knowledge is patchy I have though played with the idea of taking some lessons. I know some exes feel meditation is of value and respect what you and Anthony say. As a lone parent the idea of any space between sleep and total immersion in the work of survival was lost for me for many years. You and Anthony say that centring oneself can enhance what follows. Neither of you specify if it's the fingers in the eyes tongue down the throat ritual that is your meditation of choice. Several people have reffered in other posts to experiencing light music etc. irrespective of allegiance to M and K. As the user/owner of a mind/brain/psyche I have experienced a range of states brought about by a variety of impetus. When practising k in the prescrbed way in cult environs a shared experience was presumed and we all smiled acknowledging our special situation. Outside cultdom we carried our treasure with a smug self satisfaction and would share the source of our great gift with those we deemed able to apreciate it. Having spent more time outside than inside cult circles in recent years I feel that we were totally deluded. Not just that this particular circus was corrupt. I and everyone else on this forum have no way of knowing how much or how little the actual practise of meditation affected our lives. What I do know from my own experience and from talking to others is that the k inner journeys are pretty mundane when put along side some others. When I focus on an activity such as gardening I am engaged in mind body and spirit in a way that evolves. The more I understand the more there is to learn, for me that holds true for everything in life. Periods of quiet contemplation are reccomended in all worthwhile persuits. K to me is not a worthwhile persuit, the person who first introduced me to k n m left the cult quite quickly. When I told him I was joining it he said he'd left because life was an interesting journey and practising k went by a direct route to an end point, but that the real point was the journey and exploring the interesting detours along the way. What Loaf said about all the good things falling down a hole in the premie psyche resonated strongly for me. The other night I was listening to a review of the film Amen about the popes collusion in the holocaust, one woman said something complementary to Loafs observation, that religions suck out the random goodness that is scattered through humanity and nullify it. That is not totally verbatim. That is what I feel happened with us. So many posts testify to the fact that for most of us sharing the good things life can offer was a major motivation in joining that circus. I will never practise those techniques again as long as I live on principle if for no other reason. Love Bolly

Subject: to B:centring oneself can enhance what follows From: AV To: Bolly Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 14:53:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: can't remember saying that

Subject: Re: to B:centring oneself can enhance what follows From: Bolly To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 04:37:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV, Sorry I was paraphrasing, what you said was you meditate in the wee small hours, and I assumed this meant that this gave some benfit to the daily round. Maybe I missunderstood. Love Bolly

Subject: to Bolly From: AV To: Bolly Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 03:13:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not sure what benefit meditating ever gave to the daily round , in the very beginning it was a blast off high in the honeymoon days; incredible. As I became more embroiled in the premie world, it was a discipline, like part of a religious practice, with the invisible rod of agya ready to thwack me if I wavered. Some days were very floaty woaty, others intense freaky; I can't find a constant in there to relate specifically to K. But over the years I became very ungounded, idealogical and at times not wanting to be part of life in the main. Now, I guess I still find a need for a spiritual connection in my life, a part of me has always been like that, which is why I came to K among other reasons, hence my moments to be still and open up to whoever whatever that is out there that listens to prayers. ps. satie is not difficult, niceand slowly does it, even if you can only manage a few measures. Love, AV

Subject: Re: Maharaji From: Djuro To: Djuro Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 06:23:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not master, but fraud!!!

Subject: Re: Maharaji From: ex ladu eater To: Djuro Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 19:09:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To paraphrase Winnie, never have so many sacrificed so much for receiving so little.

Subject: The light still shines From: Jeff To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 21:15:19 (PDT) Email Address: jefflyttle@gilanet.com Message: I am totally confused how such Knowledge can be destroyed by Mind. Have practiced with Tibetan teachers and all respect the Nineth Gate. MJ is Satguru, no doubt, have seached the world over and he is a high Teacher. At the moment of death, I choose the inner Light and the toenails of my Satguru.

Subject: The baloney still blinds [nt] From: Francesca To: Jeff Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 12:06:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Recurring Premie Theme, Death From: Tonette To: Jeff Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 09:02:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We are all gonna die! Oh no! Ever hear the concept that if you didn't get totally comfortable with and 'one' with 'the light' while alive, while in a human body that when you died you would never be able to cross into infinity at the moment of your death? Guess you still subscribe to that, eh? So happy toenail sucking. Whatever. Maharaji's 'The One.' Nothing else matters. Have a nice death.

Subject: Jeff, you're in a cult. From: AJW To: Jeff Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 05:47:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jeff, You're in a cult, just like the Moonies. The stuff you wrote is cult crap. I hope you escape soon. Anth, who was once in a cult too.

Subject: Re: The light still shines From: Bolly To: Jeff Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 08:33:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I choose the inner light and toenails of my satguru!!! Didn't they tell you at the k session you have to give up dropping acid and put the money saved into the gurus pot of gold? What purpose exactly would the toenails have in your strange pre death ritual? Please don't say you'll kiss them I don't have a bucket handy. Heading for the other place where they have all the good tunes, Bolly

Subject: To Jeff with compassion From: The Falcon To: Jeff Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 04:25:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your post (almost) moved me to tears of compassion that anyone in the 21st century could actually maintain that belief structure, and that is what it is - nothing more. I beg you to really examine what you have said and what conditioned you to believe it. Have you studied the substance in the brain called tryptamine? I suggest you do, it occurs throughout nature but is released in humans at birth and death, with the exception being the shamanic use of Ayahuasca and DMT. There are no toe-nails , Jeff but you'll be pleased to know there is an ocean of light.What you won't be pleased to know is there is no Maharaji (well not differentiated anyway). This may seem a bit of an obscure post but do your own research, that is if you can still activate your critical facilities, maybe also have the courage to sample Ayahuasca and DMT (not at the same time though). It will blow away the cobwebs of belief for sure.

Subject: HelloFalcon, excellent post From: TXP To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 09:54:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The toenail thing used to be talked about by charanand. He said things like true devotees get the vision of the Lotus toenails and also cry cold tears of devotion. A good hit of DMT would clear Jeff's head and he could re-own his own bliss. I couldn't agree more. See you next time. Love TXP

Subject: Mind From: Dave Punshon To: Jeff Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 23:57:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jeff I absolutely love my Mind, and relish being in it, it is wonderful. My Mind does not destroy knowledge, it gains knowledge through study and practice. Perhaps you have decided that your Mind is a destructive force, and that is your choice. Dave

Subject: to Jeff From: AV To: Dave Punshon Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 03:52:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: so what is it that decides to sit down and meditate, is that mind? or what tells you that you've sat long enough, is that mind too? where does discrimination come from, that allows you to make cogent decisions about every aspect of your life? stood on the edge of a street full of traffic, you want to run across, but a little voice says, 'no, it's not safe, wait'...is that mind? See, nobody REALLY knows what mind is, no more than REALLY knowng what knowledge is; what we DO know is that some pretty severe concepts were planted in our brains which demonised THE MIND and glorified THE KNOWLEDGE. Do you any idea how counterproductive that is to true realisation? How can you achieve this theoretical state of ONENESS with a divided self, and, for the record, how can you destroy a knowledge which M describes as imperishable? A chisel is a chisel, under the instruction of a great craftsman it can wield the power to create works of great beauty, with poor direction is can equally create a mess. How do you percieve the world of premies and M? what are they bringing to the world, to society; how do you see the fruits of self knowledge manifest outside of the occaisional event? Do we have an object of beauty out there for all to see? I'm not criticising your view point, I'd like to see how you see it and why.

Subject: Jeff, the mind itself is not From: Anthony To: Dave Punshon Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 01:48:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the problem. You need your mind. Your consciousness is indissociable from your mind. The need is to differentiate between the good functions of mind and the detrimental ones. Good rational objective thought is a gift, and indispensable to a healthy being. It can never be a handicap to spiritual understanding and growth. It grows along with true spiritual growth, hand in hand, performing its proper function of separating the wheat from the shit. The detrimental aspects of mind, negativity, constant overactivity and analysis, will-sapping regurgitation, are the problem. Practising meditation is most definitely beneficial in harmonising out the latter. Harmonising, not suppressing. Best of all is to have a positive life attitude and direction, plus a strong moral attitude. Knowledge without morality is being a spiritual whore. You start by fucking yourself up, and then everyone around you who will permit you. Mind is great fun (when positive and healthy). When you were under your meditation blanket, how often did you bliss yourself to tears with your mind giving you outrageously beautiful satsang? Why, over the years, hasn't Maharaji made the above distinctions more clearly? Why hasn't he, and doesn't he talk a bit more about morality? Why, nowadays, in his satellite broadcasts, does he seem to be talking more about unimportance of values? That they can vary from one side of a stream to the other, when everyone knows that this is the most total bullshit? These are things to put into perspective. If you're going to practise Knowledge healthily, bear these things in mind. Sometimes Maharaji's meaning has to be fleshed out with some basic common sense. If it still hangs together, then practise and enjoy.

Subject: You're putting me on, right? From: Jerry To: Jeff Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 13:13:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At the moment of death you're choosing the toenails of satguru? That's poetic, right? Actually that's pretty fucked up. Just what do you think they're made of? Hope you're not disappointed.

Subject: Re: The light still shines From: PatD To: Jeff Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 10:29:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am totally confused how such Knowledge can be destroyed by Mind. I'm totally confused by how such gibberish can destroy the mind. I'm not really though.....present an unverifiable proposition(Rawat is some kind of Incarnation)allied with a difficult to get meditation which does 'something'& supposedly 'proves' it, discourage any kind of rational analysis.....oh,& very important this,make sure that 95%+ of your following doesn't have a clue about the way you live your life. I mean is it just me? Maybe I'm a'looser',but when I 1st looked into the wardrobe sitting in front of me & found the carefully hidden christmas presents,I just had to stop believing in Santa Claus. Whether or not the presents are crap is beside the point,although in my view they are definitely cheapo ticky tacky,but then I've never been through gate no.9,except at an airport. I'll bet you missed out the Western Isles of Scotland on your worldwide search. The Wee Frees would soon put a stop to you fiddling with yourself in the cause of enlightenement, & you'd have to have your washing out before 7.30 on a Monday morning to boot. Might give you an interesting new perspective on the'religious'life. Anyone who follows Rawat after finding out about the man behind the stage show is,in some way,a moral defective. That's YOU.

Subject: light still shines, despite your ignorance From: cq To: Jeff Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 09:54:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'At the moment of death, I choose the inner Light and the toenails of my Satguru'. 'at the moment of death' Uh huh ...that comes to all of us ... 'I choose ...' Oh rilly? Well, presuming that choice is an option at the moment of death, you still seem to be persuaded that Maharaji is the 'Satguru' and it's his toenails (thinks ... why this foot-fetishism in Hindi society?) that you'd prefer to identify with the Atman's (assuming 'God' has toenails). Well, each to his own. But I don't particulary want to be spending my afterlife (if such an existence occurs), obsessed with ANYBODY's toenails, not even my own. What kind of brown-nosing subjection to authority have you projected onto your 'Maharaji' anyway ??? OK, such 'atheistic' thinking might be abhorrent to you ... to you ... (thinks, who am I posting this to?) Oh, for fuck's sake. It's you, Jeff. bASTARD! (;) You got me that time).

Subject: Re: The light still shines From: Neville To: Jeff Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 02:25:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What actually happens is that faith in MJ is destroyed by a *functioning* mind. Such a mind has the discernment necessary to examine his long history of drunkeness and adultery and realise that this person cannot possibly be in any way divine. Neville

Subject: Re: The light still shines From: reflection To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 17:33:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: we all have a long way to go.......... nobody is perfect. but something perfect lives inside everyone.

Subject: Have you heard the story... From: Cynthia To: reflection Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 13:12:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...about the guy who died and never came back to tell us if he saw the toenails or the tunnel or the light? Me neither.

Subject: i have! the light From: janet To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 13:12:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: is there, but no toenails. guaranteed. are you listening, Jeff? no toenails. maharaji does not exist in the Other World. He does not exist on the Other Side. all the way up to and including the God Plane, he does not exist. he is no one, he is not what he claims to be, is nothing to anyone. i have had extensive contact with the Other Side. I have researched it. I have interviewed those who went and came back. I have had longterm relationships with those who are there now. i have had longrunning communication with those who Never Descended Into This Physical Plane of Experience and abide in the higher planes by choice, affinity and assignment. maharaji is not what you have been told he is. break out. if you meet the buddha on the road, kill him. he is the final obstacle to your real enlightenment.

Subject: Re: Have you heard the story... From: reflection To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 17:17:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: no , Cinthia, i havent heard about yhat guy you mention.- but i have seen that light, and im alive

Subject: I've been seeing light since I was 7... From: Cynthia To: reflection Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 19:26:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...When I was a child I would dissociate and see light. I never knew what it was because I was being molested. I found it nifty to look at even when I wasn't being molested. When I received knowledge I saw the same light. When I mentioned that to the premies, right after my knowledge session, they said it wasn't possible. But, I know it was the same thing. There's nothing special about it...and definitely no Master needed is needed to see it. It's a brain thing. I can close my eyes in a lighted room out in daylight or in the dark and I see a lot of light in my head. And I don't have to do any techniques. Sometimes I look at it and sometimes I ignore it. It has nothing to do with Maharaji. Btw, my name is Cynthia with a y....:)

Subject: Re: I've been seeing light since I was 7... From: Reflection To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 07:48:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia with a Y... .- first let me tell you that my heart feels for you.... no child should be ever abuse.- no living creature should be ever been abuse, and that show me how ignorant we, humans,are, of the holiness of life.- yes, i agree with you that we dont need a technique to see light. and i also know that i dont get much by seeng light.- only when i became one with that light i experienced infinite love and peace, and i understood exactly what he was talking about.-

Subject: For the record, Reflection... From: Cynthia To: Reflection Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 08:08:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...It's weird talking to someone named 'Reflection.' But that's not the point of my subject title. Btw, I sincerely hope you don't consider yourself a reflection because you are a real human being, not a reflection of anything or anyone. You are a unique individual as all people are born to be. My point: I don't mention my childhood abuse to elicit sympathy, but thank you for your kind words. I do it because it puts in context where I'm coming from. Most importantly, it's a mission in my life to educate people about child abuse because it is so rampant all over the world. That said, I don't believe that being a devotee of Maharaji gives anyone the exclusive awareness of the 'holiness of life.' The only things I worship now are in nature; they are abundant around me. Maharaji only needed to tell you about the light once, you don't need him to tell you over and over and over, year after year after year. That's where your mind will help you on your own; if you can separate yourself from him in your mind, you will come to understand what I mean by this. I live in a place that is so beyond beautiful I can't stand to leave it. In fact, many Vermonters take their summer vacations here in the state by going north or south...we love winter too. Everyday I am surrounded by the sounds of wild creatures of all types and the breath-taking beauty of the Green Mountains where I live. Just yesterday I was outdoors tending my garden and I heard a flock of wild turkeys gobbling their way through the forest floor--I couldn't see them, but their call is distinctive. I also heard our black bear (we're her neighbors not the opposite) calling to it's cubs. Nature is a wonderful thing to worship--not in a religious way, but simply being in it. That's where I find my peace--not through a light in my head. Cynthia

Subject: Re: For the record, Reflection... From: nidia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 12:00:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hi, Cynthia, btw, my name is nidia, and i enjoy your sincerity.- i know that many humans have arrive to the same understanding of holiness of life though difenrent ways, never said that MJ. was the only one .... that's why im not a cristian, i grew up listening that jesus was the only way.... this is open for a lot of discussion too, which to me is a waste of time.- i did enjoy a lot your picture of your life in nature.- after living for many years in cities, for me now the moment has arrive to do something i always wanted to do.- i have a land in a virgen montain -very southamerica- in a lake district, and finally, with my son help, we have built a wooden house.- and im ready to move south.... at 50, this is a great adventure, to live more in contact with nature, and simple people.- a, in a place where people dont lock their doors.... and where life follow the natural rhythm.- the outside is important, i believe in going where you feel more comfortable, but i also know the outside can change any moment. to me , my real refuge is in that love inside,

Subject: Hello Nidia... From: Cynthia To: nidia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 08:18:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Nidia, Thank you for your kind words. I wish you the best in your move to South America. Your land sounds wonderful and as you slow your pace of life and life becomes more simple (which isn't for everyone, I understand) you will find so much more peace in yourself. I do want to acknowledge that what I experience about nature and my surroundings takes place inside of me--how else could I feel it? One of the reasons I chose to live in Vermont is because I do love the subtle changes which happen in nature as well the dramatic changes in seasons. Winter can be very cold and hard, but it is so much fun once it begins and also beautiful. To watch autumn begin in a place where there are billions of trees which change to indescribable colors, it's difficult to drive my car without stopping and staring at the mountainsides (or have an accident trying to do both)! It's very funny when autumn begins here; everyone wants to predict when the foliage will peak, that is, when all the leaves will reach full color then fade and drop. The big joke is no one ever knows or can predict it not even the scientists. Many of us say 'the trees know, the trees know, stop predicting and enjoy it!' This happens every year...and when the dark days of winter get brighter every day, watching the naked grey and brown trees sprout buds into leaves and seeing everything come to life in every shade of green imaginable is beyond explanation. It is said (but I don't know who said it) that many people when they reach middle age will return to their place of birth. When I lived in Florida I hated it. Too hot, too many weird bugs and other animals. I was pulled back to New England, the place of my birth. I feel contentment here. Nidia, the love that's inside of you is yours to keep--it belongs only to you. I've discovered that as I live my life I enjoy all of the emotions that I feel. They vary, too. Sometimes I feel sublime, silly, serious, in love; sometimes I feel sad, lonely, and angry, too. Mostly I feel peace because where I live the land can never be developed in my lifetime. I live on a private road that has no traffic because not many people even know the road exists and it's a dead end: I am at the end. I hear nothing but birds and animals and the wind as it rushes through the trees. Sometimes when it's very windy, the trees sound like the ocean or a river rushing in a spring thaw. I have everything I want, right here. I know someday I will die or my husband may go first, but I don't fear that, either. I don't expect anything in death and I have no beliefs about what happens at death. I welcome all the feelings that life presents to me, including grief. Laughter and tears to me are the same. The rediscovery of the feelings and love inside myself and living my life as fully as possible, without any strings attached to anyone, has been an experience of true freedom. I don't worship any person, I adore my husband but don't worship him, I adore my cat, Nina, (who is actually human:)), my four sisters, my 80 year old Mom, my large extended family and of course, my friends who all make up the happiness in life. The acceptance and experience of the inside and outside changes is what makes me feel human again since leaving Maharaji. I won't tell you to stop believing in him, that's your life choice. But I can tell you that since I have severed my ties my life is much more clear, rich, bright and beautiful. Thank you again--you sound like a wonderful woman. I hope you post again. Best wishes, Cynthia Gracie Vermont, USA

Subject: Re:to cynthia From: nidia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 10:08:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i read several times your post.... the way you describe your feelings and your place is so beautifull that touches many strings inside.-really glad to know you walk this planet....

Subject: Re: Hello Nidia... From: nidia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 09:54:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hi cynthia..... i just saw your post today, -2 days without computer...- . i hope you'll get this one .when i read your post, it was almost like reading something that i had experienced myself.- your desciption of miami brought me memories of my ten hot humid, sweated years in that place.- i live now in a place very similar to uours, with 4 seasons, beautifull colours in the fall, and crispy white winters..... but my place is not in a dead road, but in a 6 storey building full of little cages ... where humans live.- i should not complain, because it'safe and clean, but i miss the music of the cipres in my mountains, the always green winter, the music of nature.- even my dog is in argentina... at least it's in good hands, my older son takes good care of her.- i really would like a friendship with you, interchange of experiences , if you like, i can give you my email.... hoping to hear from you again.. nidia

Subject: Hi Nydia! From: Crispy To: nidia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 17:12:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Nidia, good to see you here! :) ;) One thing I like about this forum, too, is that so many different understandings, variations, shades and degrees of understandings are freely bounced back and forth, and absolutely, you choose your own stance for yourself. I like how you revere the love and if you want to keep the teacher, then absolutely, I respect your choice. You know I've left and no longer want to keep Mj as my teacher. I've discovered it's true - one CAN separate the experience of meditation from Maharaji. Having left, I see it's the same feeling as always - while I was a premie and AFTER leaving premiedom as well. Except for one thing - it feels freer and more closer to home than ever because I see it was MY experience all along, and will always be mine to enjoy (however/whenever/whatever I wish to do with it). Like making a landclaim, or buying my own house after paying rent all my life - it's a wonderful discovery. The experience you're talking about is yours alone. You can be glad you feel it and place your OWN value on it, but Mj has no mastery or captainship of it in any way. Entrusting it to someone else's guidance actually diminishes your own personal freedom, power and ownership of it. And to keep it in perspective in another way, we could have found the same techniques from many other sources. It's not solely Mj's speciality or domain! Allowing it to be his domain and credit is the first step towards turning into a personality-worshipping cult, the very thing we blinded our eyes to and the last thing we ever wanted. Why I don't need to keep him as a teacher is also basically the same as not needing to hear over and over again what I already know so well by now. The beautiful feelings can't be forgotten. We're not idiots, Nidia. We've learned our grade lessons - no need to stay in the same class every year of our life. Besides, I don't need anyone else telling me how to put on my favorite dress, over again and over again and over again..... Nidia, you're a wonderful person with a strong and loving heart, and not like some premies who do set personal discrimination and values aside. Of course, I won't think any less of you for keeping Mj as your teacher if that's what you feel! Warmest, 'Crispy'

Subject: Re: Hi Nydia! From: nidia To: Crispy Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 18:38:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nice post crispy.....

Subject: Re: I've been seeing light since I was 7... From: Reflection To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 07:48:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia with a Y... .- first let me tell you that my heart feels for you.... no child should be ever abuse.- no living creature should be ever been abuse, and that show me how ignorant we, humans,are, of the holiness of life.- yes, i agree with you that we dont need a technique to see light. and i also know that i dont get much by seeng light.- only when i became one with that light i experienced infinite love and peace, and i understood exactly what he was talking about.-

Subject: The Emperor's New Clothes From: Livia To: reflection Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 10:19:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sure I expect we've all heard that story. So what? Have you heard the story about the Emperor's new clothes? Don't expect you'd find it relevant, though, as you're sure you can see the clothes. Those old stories were compelling, though, weren't they? I loved them, and they certainly helped maintain the myth. Lots of other cults use the same stories, to the same effect, no doubt. Livia

Subject: Re: The Emperor's New Clothes From: reflection To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 17:23:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hi, livia.- when i look inside, there are no clothes.- to me Maharaji - or the person that can teach me- points always the same direction. inside.- if i look at the person who points, i'll never understand.- where are you looking at?

Subject: To Reflection. From: The Falcon To: reflection Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 04:10:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Exactly, no-one needs to look at Maharaji or where he points as Life is doing it all for you! You are right, there is no need to look at the person who points. I know I have re-interpreted what you really meant but just try it on for size (take the blinkers off first). It is all within us- no 'master' required - just be your own.

Subject: Re: To Reflection. From: reflection To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 07:57:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yes, life gives us everything, and life gave me the need to look where mj was pointing at.- it was -and is- GOOD

Subject: Re: To Reflection. From: Bolly To: reflection Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 16:39:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reflection, In your life you felt a need to look, m (debatebly) showed you something good. Thank him and keep looking. This life you have is yours you can accept things on a trial basis. What m claims to have given is not his to give. Your life is yours, an open mind is more rewarding than a closed cult. Take care of yourself don't become part of some one else's game. M is the leader of a cult he has no interest in you other than that you help maintain his circus. Take care, Bolly

Subject: Re: To reflection From: The Falcon To: reflection Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 08:32:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK, keep the blinkers on, I thought what I was saying wouldn't fit. You completely missed my point and that took some doing. You really don't need a 'master'. A real live example for you; this weekend I sat with a dear old premie friend who said to me, 'Are you going to see Maharaji in Brighton?' 'No', I replied,'I don't need a 'master' and he has nothing to teach me' He looked mildly surprised and then recounted how he had a deeper experience of meditation when he was not 'in touch' (when he was travelling)and how he had been feeling for many years how the whole belief system and bullshit ideas (see above, toe-nails of Satguru at the moment of death-no I'm not laughing at Jeff and I am not devoid of compassion)around and about Maharaji, and obviously coming from Maharaji, were spiritually stunting his growth. I then informed him of the reasons (see wwww.ex-premie.org)why Maharaji is not worthy of worship (devotion- call it what you will but that is what Maharaji wants and is certainly addicted, to plus the money, of course).Within an hour he was no longer a premie and all his natural intuition, instincts and common sense were restored. This was not de-programming per se, merely two friends talking with equal respect and from the heart. This is all so easy, no guru, no method, no teacher! but.........plenty of experience-Light, Music, Nectar, primordial vibe, the whole shebang and then some, life is getting better all the time with less overheads.

Subject: Re: To reflection From: n.-reflection To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 12:24:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hi falcon. i guess i have never been a *premie' in the conventional concept of most 'premies' around me. in fact, i never even thougt of me as a 'premie' - i never experienced for MJ what most expremies or premies did for him, .- this site really amaze me. the experience of expremis amaze me. this is part of the process to clean concepts and ideas that are not.- i admire expremies that can say no to so much bullshit.- so, i accept you as a person who doesnt need a teacher -and i use the word teacher instead of master, because master , to me , has to much connotation of reverence-.- Can you accept that im a student and i have a teacher? there are many like you.- there are many like me- can we be friends.- or if not friends, at least.... not to step in each other toes..... and i dont mean when we are dying.....

Subject: Re: The Emperor's New Clothes From: Livia To: reflection Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 03:48:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have no problem with looking inside - there's a nice peaceful place there - but what does it have to do with Maharaji? Why do you think he has the authority call himself a teacher of self-knowledge? And what makes you think the 'Knowledge' is anything more than four techniques by which you can go within and experience something that seems sometimes quite profound? I had that experience as a child, and I had it while trying out the techniques before I officially 'received Knowledge'. The whole Maharaji phenomenon is a personality cult. Going inside is fine. But it never had anything to do with him. This is where the delusion is, and this is where the Emperor's new clothes are. Livia

Subject: Re: The Emperor's New Clothes From: reflection To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 12:39:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: livia. you have a very good point, and the truth is i like sometimes more to relate to expremies than to premies, because most expremies are not so blinding fanatics.- your post reminde me of one experience i had as aspirant. i had experience already that place, and when i told a so called 'PREMIE' . that i knew what MJ was talking about, he laughed at me, and told me , condescending, that was imposible, because i didnt have the tecniques.- at that moment i knew that he had no understood what i had.- and i dont mean i felt supirior, inferior, more or less.- it was a fact.- he had a concept that i dindt have.- another example of 'premies' understanding.....my dear friend, quadriplegic, wanted knowledge.- most ashram premies told me that she could never have k because she could not use her hands, that is, she could not do the 'tecniques' - i knew by my experience, and by MJ - that the only requesite was to be alive- she received k, and had -still have- great experiences, in her bed, the place she has spent the last 35 years of her life= to me it is not black and white.-

Subject: Re: The Emperor's New Clothes From: Livia To: reflection Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 12:56:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your reply, reflection. (Don't you have an actual name you can call yourself?) Yes, what you say is right. I read a great book once called 'Cutting through spiritual materialism' by Chogyam Trumpka. It was about how bogged down one can get by thinking one knows something that other people don't know, and how damaging this can be. It's actually very difficult for premies not to think they know something other people don't know, and sadly the premie world is rife with smugness and arrogance, both of which are the antithesis of true clarity, awareness and love. The trouble is that is has become a cult, and probably always was one, although none of us here saw that when we first got involved, otherwise we would never have got involved. I think most of us received Knowledge out of a genuine desire for enlightenment, whatever we thought that was, and because we thought that if everyone received Knowledge it could lead to world peace. All that now seems a distant dream. There is still a place inside that one can sometimes get to, and as I said earlier, can feel quite good and quite profound. I have no idea what that place is and no longer have any wish to define it. I also have no wish for a master who has feet of clay, or indeed for any master at all. I think following a master for too long keeps you too subservient which isn't ultimately good for the purpose of fully growing up. Best wishes to you Livia

Subject: Hi Nydia! From: Crispy To: nidia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 17:12:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Nidia, good to see you here! :) ;) One thing I like about this forum, too, is that so many different understandings, variations, shades and degrees of understandings are freely bounced back and forth, and absolutely, you choose your own stance for yourself. I like how you revere the love and if you want to keep the teacher, then absolutely, I respect your choice. You know I've left and no longer want to keep Mj as my teacher. I've discovered it's true - one CAN separate the experience of meditation from Maharaji. Having left, I see it's the same feeling as always - while I was a premie and AFTER leaving premiedom as well. Except for one thing - it feels freer and more closer to home than ever because I see it was MY experience all along, and will always be mine to enjoy (however/whenever/whatever I wish to do with it). Like making a landclaim, or buying my own house after paying rent all my life - it's a wonderful discovery. The experience you're talking about is yours alone. You can be glad you feel it and place your OWN value on it, but Mj has no mastery or captainship of it in any way. Entrusting it to someone else's guidance actually diminishes your own personal freedom, power and ownership of it. And to keep it in perspective in another way, we could have found the same techniques from many other sources. It's not solely Mj's speciality or domain! Allowing it to be his domain and credit is the first step towards turning into a personality-worshipping cult, the very thing we blinded our eyes to and the last thing we ever wanted. Why I don't need to keep him as a teacher is also basically the same as not needing to hear over and over again what I already know so well by now. The beautiful feelings can't be forgotten. We're not idiots, Nidia. We've learned our grade lessons - no need to stay in the same class every year of our life. Besides, I don't need anyone else telling me how to put on my favorite dress, over again and over again and over again..... Nidia, you're a wonderful person with a strong and loving heart, and not like some premies who do set personal discrimination and values aside. Of course, I won't think any less of you for keeping Mj as your teacher if that's what you feel! Warmest, 'Crispy'

Subject: Re: Hi Nydia! From: nidia To: Crispy Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 18:38:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nice post crispy.....

Subject: nidia/reflection From: Livia To: nidia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 15:27:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Nidia, are you the same person as reflection? You both write in the same way using a lot of lower case letters. If you're the same person, please choose one name and stick with it to avoid confusion; I think it's requested at the top of the forum page. If you're not the same person, apologies. Out of interest, when did you receive Knowledge? Livia

Subject: Re: nidia/reflection From: nidia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 18:40:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: same.- 1978

Subject: Re: nidia/reflection From: Livia To: nidia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 05:11:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Nidia, I respect your attitude about the whole thing, and it's refreshing to have premies like yourself and Carlos here who don't seek to drag exes back the 'the fold' but have genuine respect for other people whose views and interpretations may differ to their own. Many exes here still meditate and many don't - it's not often really an issue for argument here these days. The argument, when there is one, is when premies hold Maharaji up to be an indisputable master of Knowledge. I personally have no issue with any premie who still loves Maharaji but respects the postion of exes who cannot find it within themselves to feel the same way any more. There are even premies over at LG who will claim that any ex who no longer loves Maharaji could never have understood or experienced the Knowledge in the first place - which to me is the mindset of a fanatic and a fundamentalist. People like yourself and Carlos are helping to create a more genuinely friendly communication between premies and exes, which I for one feel can only be a good thing. I have one close premie to whom I have 'come out' as an ex, and after initial shock on her part, and at that point I was very worried about losing her frienship - after all she has been a very close friend for 30 years - she decided that I was still me and that our friendship was too meaningful to crumble on this issue. And it hasn't. Other exes have been less fortunate and have had friendships capsize completely, which I think is a tragedy, and makes you wonder how deep the friendship ever really was on the part of the premie who decides to blank his/her friend. Thank you for being here and keeping an open heart. All the best to you, Livia

Subject: Re: nidia/reflection From: nidia To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 06:24:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hi livia. before mj, after mj is gone, before k, before techniques, we are alive, we are breathing... . i hold to that, and i enjoy talking to others -mj or not mj involved- who have an open heart.-

Subject: Re: The light still shines From: Carlos - To Jeff To: Jeff Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:28:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As a practicing premie and an unrepentent bhakti who still reveres our Master I would be glad to respond to your post. But this is not the proper forum; I can't give you a real, heartfelt response without speaking about Maharaji and Knowledge in ways that would be offensive to the FA of this forum, and OT to it. Go to Hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum , commonly called 'Life Is Great' and start a new thread. Ask for me in the subject line. On that BB I can respond without it being OT or offensive to the BB.

Subject: Carlos...by all means... From: Cynthia To: Carlos - To Jeff Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 06:54:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Carlos, By all means, feel free to discuss you're feelings about Maharaji here. It is not off-topic at all.

Subject: Re: Carlos...by all means... From: Carlos - To Cynthia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 14:26:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know the stated topic allows for that. But from the reactions I've seen from numerous exes I can only conclude that the CONCENSUS (sp?) topic and the official topic are not te same. At least, it would seem unreasonable to flame people just for posting proM beliefs, feelings and understandings. Yet that is the common response to premies who post here. Less to me than to most, which I believe is because my actions, over a fairly long time now *9 months?) has shown you guys that I really have no desire to 'bring you back', do respect your absolute right to have a position different than mine and no desire to offend you. I'm sure you wouldn't flame me. If you got mad at me, you might sort of cuss at me a bit ... but that isn't the kind of flaming I'm talking about; and since we've gotten to know each other a bit I don't think I'd get you mad at me anyway. But thanks for the invite.

Subject: Re: Carlos...by all means... From: Cynthia To: Carlos - To Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 08:57:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Carlos, So then, you understand why I don't post on LG (except in times of weakness when I read there and get angry). Yeah, I do cuss a lot, as I said, my husband tells me I've got a foul mouth and he reminds me of it a lot. I am working on curbing that part of me that can't resist swearing. But I do enjoy it sooo much!! Be well, Cynthia, Goddamn it! ;)

Subject: Re: Carlos...by all means... From: Carlos - To Cynthia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 13:51:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I believe I do understand why you rarely post on LG, except when your buttons have been pushed. I'd wish to see you post there, from time to time, just to drop of a note about something neat ... but I will happily recognize your privilege to post where you care to and not try and talk you into it! Best wishes to you, too.

Subject: Such 'Knowledge' ... From: Stonor To: Jeff Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 21:28:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: can NEVER be destroyed by Mind ... but can (as I understand it) be destroyed by Brain. One of the problems for me with seeking spiritual guidance elsewhere, or anywhere, had to do with the subtleties of language... Who would choose the toenails of anyone while dying?!!! Anna

Subject: you mean Brian and not brain, right? From: monty p. To: Stonor Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 05:04:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: weird Maharaji quotes From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 15:44:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think this is the time to start posting a list of weird and wonderful Maharaji quotes along the lines of the 'you can be experiencing Knowledge and still carry out immoral acts at the same time' quote. These priceless words actually give a semblance of an idea of who he really is, between the lines and behind the facade. A friend told me yesterday that he said something particularly unpleasant about neighbours and how to deal with them. Then there was the quote below about things being much better now that we don't have to bother with silly concepts like morals. Any actual, verbatim quotes, anyone? I expect the particularly unpleasant ones will be from the last 10 years or so - the era in which he seems to have given up any pretence of being 'spiritual' or Knowledge being any sort of inspiration to goodness or altruism. (Perish the thought) Livia

Subject: Well he never said he was GOD From: Dermot To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 22:01:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he just said he was greater than God ....'Guru is greater than God' ....modest fella really....no meglomanic grandstanding with Prem Pal....not a bit of it.

Subject: This is a crucial theme From: Anthony To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 02:30:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been worried over the last 20 years that Maharaji almost never talks of moral values. (I remember him once saying 'just be decent', which sums things up neatly). But he usually says completely nothing, and merely exhorts people to practise Knowledge ever more energetically. If you've already got some strong moral context from earlier training or upbringing, things are relatively O.K. You just take for granted 'to be decent'. There are many premies, however, who are completely relieved to cast morality and consideration for others aside, as if it did not matter. These people are looking pretty forlorn these days, as their lives have not only not prospered, but fucked up quite complicatedly. If we combine this with Maharaji's exhortation to avoid mind (instead of making a clear distinction between the beneficial and detrimental aspects of the thinking process), then you end up with a lot of fucked up people. Maharaji has had the duty to make all these points clearly over the years, to prevent massive confusion in many of his followers. He should start doing so now to clear up the mess. Failure to do so is going to make things a great deal worse. His willingness or otherwise to do this is going to be the rock on which his life's mission will either survive or break into pieces.

Subject: Re: He should start doing so now From: AV To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 03:59:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: which could involve teaching by example......

Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM***(Anthony) From: Livia To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 03:55:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well put and very clearly said. Something I've been trying to find the right words for for ages, and you did it. Fabulous. Best to you Livia

Subject: Re: ***BEST OF FORUM***(Anthony) From: Jim S. To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 09:07:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Exactly, and very well put. When I wrote my letters to M/EV, that was the entire gist of the letters. It is the lack of ethical conduct, and premies willingness to accept it and not question M, that has led to so many of these problems. These problems now threaten premies lives, as they are left in the following dilemna: 1-M demands that they follow him, and not question him, or his motives (or his 'purity')... 2-It is proven beyond a doubt that M has lied, deceived, and manipulated the premies for ages now. 3-These abuses by M are obvious to an intelligent new person, who can and will see them for what they are. 4-M encourages premies to spread the word about him and K. 5-As premies blindly follow M to propagate,THE PREMIES will take the heat on the front lines, as new people (sadly, usually those closest to them, such as family, friends, neighbors, business assocates etc.) will see these obvious hypocrisies, and see through them easily and quickly. Premies responses to simple, honest questions from new people will only make them and M look foolish and cultish, and show clearly that they have something to hide or revise. 6)Premies lives ultimately suffer by following their beloved Master, as their lives are affected adversely by his lies. These lies are things that he clearly knows will hurt them,but he is afraid to reveal this, as it will cause most of the premies to leave him, and we all know that the entire thing is based on HIM, and the premies devotion to him. Ultimately, it is Maharaji himself who will derail and self destruct the whole thing. He is selfishly demanding uncritical devotion to himself from the premies. This unquestioned loyalty will hurt their lives. He knows this, but will not act on it, because doing so will put him out of business. I think the real question is: 1)Does M tell the truth NOW, and basically end the whole game NOW. OR 2)String the premies along, cover up, revise, deny, and hope that the few remaining 'true believers' hang with him and bring in a few more believers, hopefully rich... So far, I think it is obvious which direction he is taking... I am writing him a letter along these lines now... He is hurting many, and living in denial about it...

Subject: Re: ***BEST OF FORUM***(Anthony) From: JIm To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 08:49:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Sin and Suicide From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 12:00:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia How about: If there is a definition of sin - if there is one - then it definitely applies to the place of ever leaving that Love, of ever forgetting that Love, of Guru Maharaj Ji. and And if we forget who we really are, if we let go of Guru Maharaj Ji and really forget who we really are in the true sense of the word, then that's almost like committing suicide, that's almost like dying. You want more recent stuff? Occasionally I dip into the EV 'broadcasts' - (more like narrow casts) - have no fear Rotwat's discourses are still peppered with total garbage. I will try and get some stuff for you - unless I die of boredom first. Love, Thorin 1978 Garbage www.ex-premie.org/papers/may8th1978.htm

Subject: Re: Sin and Suicide From: Bolly To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 14:43:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thorin Hi You are an extremely patient person, I will be sending some other gems for your perusal forthwith. Please don't expose yourself to that stuff too often remember what happened the first time you soaked up his words of wisdom. Love Bolly

Subject: To Bolly From: Thorin To: Bolly Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 15:35:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yo Bolly Please do not consign things to consigna yet. Chat with friends and be available. I am trying to clear diaries but nothing certain. xoxo T

Subject: Re: To Bolly From: Bolly To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 16:52:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, When I say something is on it's way I mean it is at some point this year. I have a pile of stuff heading for the post office, just have to get around to it. Love Bolly

Subject: God & His wife at play From: PatD To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 13:34:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And I was just playing in the sand. I just took a fistful of sand ... I took it and dropped it back on the beach and I said - 'I just changed the whole universe; the whole structure of the universe. Universe is not going to be the same again.' And Marolyn was right next to me and she said, 'Oh yeah, but that's always happening.' I can hardly believe that I ever gave credence to someone with the truly Napoleonic ego & the Reader's Digest intellect neccessary to say something like that in public,& expect the audience to swallow it & clap. Shit,I forgot,I used to be a cult member.

Subject: Re: God & His wife at play From: Bolly To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 08:44:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Readers Digest intellect? I think you are under estimating the readers of that esteemed publication. Love Bolly

Subject: Life's like that!! (n.t.) From: AV To: Bolly Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 14:11:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: God & His wife at play From: Livia To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 04:32:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He should have listened to Marolyn. She sounds as if she was a bit underwhelmed by him at that moment.. Livia

Subject: Re: weird Maharaji quotes From: Djuro To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 07:24:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are wasting your time following such a degenerate like Prem Rawat.

Subject: Re: weird Maharaji quotes From: Observer To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 16:56:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There you go, Livia. This is the ex-premie forum in a nutshell. You print a 'quote' which isn't actually a real quote, rather a bit of free-floating detritus that someone with a charge built up vaguely remembers, inaccurately and out of any context, spun to make Maharaji look ridiculous, which you believe solely because it supports other bits of silliness that you've unquestioningly digested and fallen for. Just a game of Telephone. Then you ask for similar 'quotes' to further your agenda. Kind of similar to the cheapest political campaign tactics that you would never fall for. You can't possibly be this gullible and easily fooled in other areas and relationships of your life, one hopes. I suppose it fills the time. The real deal is so much greater and more valuable than this gossipy tripe. To each their own.

Subject: To Djuro and observer From: Livia To: Observer Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 08:28:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I knew when writing the above post yesterday that premies would appear and claim that I'm muckraking, but sorry, nothing could be further than the truth. What got me thinking about this over the last few days was hearing a few things that set off bells ringing. And yes, obviously I've heard and read all the apparently 'good stuff' Maharaji has come out with over the years. We all know that - it's why we all received Knowledge in the first place. But what you people seem utterly unable to even contemplate is that Maharaji was born to the life he has led. He was born into a family with a father who was 'Satguru' and a mother who first worshipped his father as Lord incarnate, and then himself from age 8. Have you ever thought about the long-term effects of being worshipped by everyone around you including your closest family from the earliest possible age? The amount of imprinting and conditioning this must have involved, to the extent that he obviously believes it himself? And have you ever dared to face the possiblity that he may very well be nothing divine at all, just conditioned from a very early age to believe that he is? It wouldn't be the first time this has happened, particularly in the East. The reason I asked people to print actual strange quotes was because I have been beginning to build up an actual picture of the actual man behind the facade, from some of the things he has said over the years. And I'm not looking for vague ideas of what he's said, but actual quotes plus context if that helps, so there can be no argument about validity or meaning. We all know the stuff he says that make him seem like a master, but he says some pretty odd things too, that paint a different picture, and premies need to rise above a certain naivety that they seem subject to, in order to discover the real truth of the man. If they have the courage. Livia PS I was once close over a period of time to a member of Maharaji's immediate family and saw at first hand an enormous and undeniable amount of dysfunction. (My faith was unshakeable in those days, so I relegated what I had seen to the "back burner" because it didn't compute.) Dysfunction does not normally occur in healthy families, so think about it. Or dare you not go that far? Has that 'leave no room for doubt in your mind' obliterated your discernment? It's still doing its job, then.

Subject: interested in the dysfunction From: janet To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 14:58:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: would you please describe what you saw, livia? it would shed alot of understanding for those of us who weren't there in person to witness it. why protect the family member? it's all part andparcel of the phenomenon. name names.

Subject: Re: interested in the dysfunction From: Livia To: janet Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 15:32:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not protecting the person concerned, I'm protecting my own anonymity, which I'm still retaining as I'm still not ready to come out to the hundreds of people who probably know me and read this on a regular basis. Cowardly maybe but there it is. And I expect there are many others here who have been witness to the same type of Rawat family general weirdness. Believe me, they are one weird family - unsurprisingly! Livia

Subject: I thought the VERY same thing, Livia, From: Dermot To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 20:54:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just recently.The absurdity of it all. Not superficially or anything, it really just occurred to me- the whole tragicomic upbringing Prem Pal must have gone through. Born into a weird, fanatical, bunch of zealots –a mongrel mix of Hinduism, Sikhism and ShriHansism with a bunch of pink robed MaDhatmas thrown in for good measure. Hundreds of thousands of Indian Hindus adding Shri Hans to their pantheon of Gods. Prem Pal going to his Western, Catholic school- just another kid on the block until he gets back home and sees his Dad whacking some Premie or some Manmutt with a big stick whenever it turned him on to do so. Attending Ginormous events and put on stage like some Victorian freak show act. Then as he gets to his early teens hankering to leave home and explore the world including it’s sex, drugs and rock & roll. I can relate to that, I couldn’t wait to leave home at 16 and move down South and try a bit of this and a bit of that. So there he is in the West speaking his Ind-lish till it slowly turned into American. Being revered by a bunch of travelling pink robers and a growing flock of stupid hippies…moi to be included….just a young kid looking for a buzz but just so happened to be “The Lord of the Universe” too. All this time you just can’t help but sympathise with the kid and what a weird, weird trip he was born into. From the start he was used to churning out boring , bog standard, Hindu based Satsang but as he got to the West he realised he had to change it. His ulcer, his drinking, Mishler advising him to sort himself out and come clean…his dithering and then his hankering again for plain old total adulation. Gradually, he gets more Westernised and yes his accent becomes bearable and yes he develops a little bit of charisma and he finds out it’s enough for him to just wing it and build some real wealth in the process too. He gets married to an older woman at 16. Hahaha, it keeps on rolling in it’s weird fashion. Somewhere along the line, though ,the sympathy becomes mis-placed. He’s had his chances to come clean and admit so much but instead he twists and turns but always careful to use a nod, wink and innuendo so that the die-hards in the West and the Indians back home still have a suggestion of “Lila”. Still can carry on….he and his followers forever needing each other. No one really prepared to look at the whole crazy farce with fresh eyes and let go of the pretence. Besides, there’s still a buzz (of sorts) to be had ….maybe there is something in it they convince themselves ….Master and devotee afraid to let go of each other and face the vast universe alone. Why bother? It’s safe where they are. He exhorts them to be always grateful, they aren't used to anything else. Real reflection? Real questioning? It's far easier to leave no room for doubt. It's gone too far to contemplate change ....even if it's change for the better. Healthy change. Change that would be good for Prem Pal as well as his Premies. And no one has hardly noticed that the bog standard Hindu Satsang has evolved into Western New age bubblegum-speak. ….and life rolls on …..soon be time for Amaroo. Cheers Dermot.

Subject: Hey Livia From: Vicki To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 12:00:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brilliant post, as always. You bring up a good point about his mother worshipping his father first then him. I wonder about that. The way the story goes, she had a dream about marrying Shr Hans, her father had his picture drawn, he sees Shri Hans face on a poster, tells him about his daughter's dream and the rest is history. So, if there is any accuracy in this, did she worship him as Satguru or only as her husband? I remember Maharaji saying once that his mother was very strict Hindu and she always had holy religious types in the house. On Shr Hans passing, evidently there was a holy man quoted here or on EPO that said Mata Ji herself wanted to take over the Road Show. Plus his elder brother thought he was entitled as first born son. So did she really worship little Sant Ji as perfect master or simply knew who was the biggest draw for bringing in crowds? Obviously for her to leave and go with the brother, she couldn't have truly believed he was a perfect master. Just these little inconsistencies that we were spoon fed as gospel truth, that our trusting little souls bought into, and we never questioned. They make me wonder what was really on the up and up. Not much apparently!

Subject: Re:The 'holy' family From: Livia To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 04:23:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great post, Vicki, and you bring up some interesting points. It would indeed be illuminating to understand the whole context of Maharaji's upbringing and propulsion into role of Satguru. As you say, we were spoonfed the idea that M was the contemporary of a long line of Pefect Masters of which Jesus, Buddha etc were part. Some of the masters were promiment and great religions stemmed from their teachings, and most must have been obscure, or so we all saw it at the time. But was it ever really that simple! I've even read somewhere that the official story of the 'transmission' after Hans' death is very open to interpretation. There was apparently some argument about whether it should have been M or Bal Bhagwan Ji and M was more popular with the devotees so the decision was made that it should go to him. The 'voice' story then being a later addition to firm the whole thing up. Oh dear. And we swallowed it all without question... Yes, Mata ji's defection was suspiciously sudden and then never really spoken about or understood. Just that she was 'stuck in her Hindu concepts' or whatever. But surely someone living so close to the whole thing as wife and mother of two incarnations wouldn't get in such a muddle? And poor old Bhole Ji - such a devotee of M's one minute, and then off with his mum the next. It would be interesting to know the exact story of what happened at the time of Hans' death, from the memory of a detached observer who was there at the time. Facts, real facts, to clear up forever the myth that lives on in the minds of premies - or have they left that all behind because it was always a load of Hindu concepts anyway? Duh? But then how did he become a master in the first place in that case? Lo, what a muddle! Love, Livia

Subject: If you don't like this forum... From: Cynthia To: Observer Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 20:03:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...you don't have to be here, Observer. Plus, Rawat isn't the real deal. That's the point, whoever you are.

Subject: I've read transcripts of Rawat's .... From: Stonor To: Observer Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 19:36:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: talks, and they are detritus. You don't need quotes, you don't need anything except to look at what he has said ... flotsam and jetsam floating on the sea he says he will save you from. He's a wreck himself. Just listen, if it doesn't hurt your head and heart too much. I find much better nourishment for my conscience and soul from other sources.

Subject: Re: I've read transcripts of Rawat's .... From: cq To: Stonor Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 09:21:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'You don't need quotes, you don't need anything except to look at what he has said ... ' erm .. excuse me? (Anna, I was honestly surprised to see you're posting here again. I guess now that Jim has apparently gone, you feel once again qualified to add your voice to the ex-premie 'consensus', if such a thing exists). Trouble is ... if you want to be seen as part of some kind of 'anti-bully' brigade (if that's what we really are - I think anti-conman brigade would be a better description) that has Maharaji aka Rawat in its sights, you'd better do better (now there's a title for a song, if ever I heard one) than your offering quoted above. Really. Shucks. Jings. Honestly. Good grief. etc. (OK so I post pissed here from time to time. If that's your reason for the lapse of ... whatever it's called, then fair do's. Heaven forfend that I should called a hypocrite (though occasionally it might be true). Think about it. Chris.

Subject: Hi cq! From: Stonor To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 10:41:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hmmmm ..... well, sounds like a bit of 'overkill' up there - my deepest apologies for offending your sensibilities in some way. What I meant was transcripts as opposed to short quotes, but I agree that it was poorly written ... sometimes I don't bother to read things over properly - thanks for drawing it to my attention. As for the rest - not sure at all what you're saying. I don't intend to be 'part' of anything in particular. Usually I don't post here anymore, although I have from time to time when I read something that I react to - the degree of which varies according to my mood. Hope all is well with you! Anna

Subject: Re: weird Maharaji quotes From: Neville To: Observer Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 17:41:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look, Observer, we pull out quotes by the hundred that are recorded in black and white in old copies of 'Six Lane Freeway' etc, and have M and premies deny to our faces that M ever said any such thing. That's why the word 'revisionism' is so popular on this site. So don't accuse us of spinning rumours. Personally I'm only too aware of the danger of building mere rumours into propaganda and I have no intention of paying attention to anything not properly substantiated. Take a look at the EPO site and you will see a great deal of careful investigation with many eyewitness accounts, documentary evidence etc. The call for M's own words to be held up to scrutiny is perfectly reasonable. (And utterly damning.) Neville

Subject: My personal favorite From: gerry To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 15:51:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rawat quote: Suck the rat! You love Coca-Cola!

Subject: Context! We need context... [nt] From: Neville To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 17:42:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: It was an ashram meeting w/Ratwot, Neville... [nt] From: Cynthia To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 20:01:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: It was an ashram meeting w/Ratwot, Neville... From: Thorin To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 14:40:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia Yes I believe it was the Miami ashram late 70's sometime. I have often sought out the actual tape of the coca cola rat satsang. I suspect it was a big drip for many. Anyone got the tape? Thorin

Subject: Re: It was an ashram meeting w/Ratwot, Neville... From: Cynthia To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 19:21:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, I remember the satsang but can't remember where it was. It was somewhere in Florida :) because I was in Miami when it took place. I can only picture the ashram meeting at Kissimmee during the time I was at DECA in Miami. So much happened back then and so fast, it's difficult sometimes for me to remember the exact date of that particular meeting. Best, Cynthia

Subject: having doubts From: cat To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 01:01:03 (PDT) Email Address: luni_cat61@hotmail.com Message: thank you for your site. I have recently been introduced to Maharaji by a new friend and after searching fruitlessly for a master who gives me the power and tecniques that will work I thought Maharaji could be the answer. One of the reasons is that after being involved in the Sannyas Community I am drawn to the fact that in all the Introductory videos Maharaji says 'I don't want your money, you couldn't afford what I'm offering.' When does this demanding money that i'm reading about start.And who decides and how when I am ready for knowledge, The friend told me I can come to one day of an upcoming event but i'm not ready for knowledge yet?

Subject: Searching for 'Power' from a 'Master'? From: cq To: cat Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 07:38:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi there Swami (or are you a Ma?) Cat. 'I don't want your money, you couldn't afford what I'm offering' Well, speaking as an ex-premie (early to mid-70s) and ex-sannyasin (1977-80), one thing I've found both the Maha and Osho (or Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, as he was called back in my day) to have had in common is this: As so-called 'Masters', both allowed themselves absolute impunity from facing up to any kind of responsibility their actions/message had on their followers. Rajneesh, whenever he found that the ideas he was currently promoting conflicted with or even totally contradicted any message he'd previously given, would (quite cleverly - or should that be 'deviously'?) attempt make a virtue out of his 'inconsistency', and would imply that the desire for security/consistency was only for prisoners of social conformity, and had nothing to do with being around a 'true Master'. This strategy succeeded for him in that it persuaded his sannyasins to allow him carte-blanche to do and say anything he wanted. Whether wise, sensible or even honest was beside the point. The price of this kind of 'freedom' is indeed more than most can afford. It begins in the gradual process of disempowering yourself (even though it feels like the opposite). Your own judgement is subtly but consciously ignored in favour of obeying the constantly changing dictates of a so-called 'Master' (who often is nothing more than a scoundrel, albeit a very charismatic one). Slowly you start to lose yourself on a slippery slope that, unless you're very fortunate to escape, will plunge you into a gradually accelerating whirlpool of losing (at first) your own ability to discriminate, then whatever sense of morality you once possessed, then your personality, and finally your mind, if not your soul (whatever you like to see that as). Although Maharaji has none of the sophistication of Rajneesh (and believe me, old Bhagwan could spin a literary spell or two!) the result of becoming dependent on either of the two is much the same: the loss of your true self is the same loss, regardless of who encourages you to lose it. Maharaji, however, is much easier to see through. True, no-one can really afford what he and Rajneesh and many of the other so-called 'Masters' are offering. But Maharaji's ability to deceive is far less subtle than Rajneesh's. I mean, when he says 'I don't want your money', ... I mean ... really! Why does he accept it then? I could go on, but I've got work to do ...

Subject: The Sannyas Community? Smells like another cult. From: Tonette To: cat Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 07:34:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, whomever you are, all you have to do is go to 'ex-premie.org' to read all about our sick little dying cult. The documents are there, the first hand accounts. It's quite black and white to the rational person. But what rational person is out looking for a 'Master?' You've been fruitlessly searching you say? For a Master? Well, I guess you two deserve each other. Oh the power, the truth, the techniques that will work! Yeah, the techniques work allright but what's really interesting is observing people like you who come begging to be duped. I guess you don't think much of yourself, I take it you are confused and don't think much of anyone else either. Haven't found your niche. Don't have much going for yourself. Well, has Maharaji got the medicine to make that all better. He's got the blinders, the earplugs and the mental distraction that you will never have to deal with your personal shortcomings ever again! Got tired of the Sannyas cult, well, here's another! Go for it dude! The only money involved is what it takes to register for a one hour program, $60.00 or the twice yearly voyage to Australia and Amaroo's registration, $400.00 plus food. Amaroo is an on going voyage, a never ending Mecca. You gotta go at least once, and more if you consider Maharaji your Master. The Master will tell you what is needed in order to tap his power. But you know that already. You like cults. You obviously have a hard time standing on your own two feet. Pity really. Good luck, Tonette

Subject: Re: Tonette From: Observer II To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 21:40:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice lady Tonette. You've really got a way of making a guy feel welcome.

Subject: To blunt for you? Oh well. From: Tonette To: Observer II Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 06:30:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sugar the words, dilute the message. Sugar them to a nice cozy level of political correctness, gentle stroking as to not 'hurt' anyone and you have not said anything at all. Can't see what has been said because of all the smoke. Besides, this individual has already made up his/her mind. Notice all the response and dialogue to this thread. Now note the poster's response to all the replies. I see one, just one. Naw, your criticism of the way I posted to cat is just the same sort of spam started by the one who authored this thread. Very little, if any, substance to your reply to me, and certainly much fear. Why are you are afraid to even use your first name? Have a nice life, Tonette

Subject: No but cold, uncaring and just plain rude From: ObserverIII To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 01:41:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but I have observed from your other posts that you find it impossible to be otherwise, you seem to pride yourself as a nasty vindictive type always on the attack, hope my observations are wrong

Subject: Sorry about that, NOT. From: Tonette To: ObserverIII Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 09:33:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah cyberspace. The typed word with so much thought and feeling behind it. Non-verbal communication, no social cues, facial expressions, voice inflections, so one sided, in lapsed time. Well, you are wrong Observerlll about me. I am none of the above. Vindictive, nasty nor hateful. But then again, whom am I even talking to? Are you related to Observerll? Twins, sisters, family members, friends? Or are you one and the same? See you think it perfectly allright to criticize me and yet, you are playing this little game. There's no substance, again, to what you wrote to me. Your identity keeps changing, and you feel justified in typing these one line messages that guess what? Are hateful, vindictive, and nasty. Looked in the mirror lately? Kinda hard to work on your real self when you spend all your time pursuing a mirage, isn't it? I don't care what you think of me. You're laughable. So insincere. And invalid. If you want to get to know me stop on by sometime, otherwise leave me alone. I have no issue with you. I want to hope that you are not another cult addled moron. Gee, was that a nasty response to you? If you took it as such I have one thing to say- too fucking bad. If you don't like what I write, then don't read it! Duh!

Subject: Oh dear From: ObserverIII To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 20:29:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: my observations were not incorrect anyways, I'm hoping one day perhaps to see a post from you that contains a glimmer of happiness or joy. but I sure won't be holding my breath

Subject: Another response, sooooo communicative, NOT From: Tonette To: ObserverIII Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 07:53:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll tell you my joy, my loves, share my life with you, only if you go first. It seems to be a recurring theme with you, something you accuse me of, a hateful bitch. Yet, you do not know the first thing about me. I think it only fair, after what you have posted to me, if you make the first plunge. Tell me a little about you. Why, for instance, are you reading the forum? Are you a premie, an ex or what? Then again, you may just be insincere, spamming me with no intention of real communciation, be that what it is, on a cyber forum. Communication? The forum? It's a vehicle, the forum is lots of things. Spam is one of them, as you so clearly illustrate. So, Observerll or lll, the ball is in your court. Put the money where your mouth is. Besides answering my other queries, are you one who not only likes to hold their breath but also makes it the purpose of your life? You're silly and transparent. But most of all, you're dishonest. Tonette Thanks for the chuckle

Subject: Re: having doubts From: Richard To: cat Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 18:42:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And thank you for sharing your story, cat. As others have suggested, there is quite a lot of valuable information collected on the EPO website which has a link from this site. Read over some of the basic background, the 14 Objections, as well as the Best of Forum pages. Also take a look at how current followers spend their time and conciousness at Life Is Great forum. The path offered by Maharaji, who now refers to himself as Prem Rawat, is about devotion to him in exchange for an indefinable experience. Part of that devotion is called 'Appreciation' which translates into giving one's time in 'Participation' and money or other resources as gifts of 'Gratitude'. I respect and honor your seeking something meaningful in your life, but I suggest you see the whole picture and then make an informed decision. All the best to you, Richard Life is Great www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum

Subject: www.enjoyinglife.org [nt] From: Cat, check out To: cat Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 17:36:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: who posts 'my personal favorite' From: cat, the gerry in the thread above this To: Cat, check out Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 17:49:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: is Forum Administrator for 1 of the ex premie forums. His behaviour in that post is pretty typical for him, not some rare outbreak. Which may give you an idea how much to rely on the objections to Maharaji voiced by exes.

Subject: How about ... From: Stonor To: cat, the gerry in the thread above this Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 19:22:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: non-anythings who never bought into the guru trip, but have had a lifelong spiritual path that has included learning these K techniques without the 'dogma' (not that I liked them nor practiced them much as part of my meditation), which has been very satisfying, even if much more demanding? Anna (Stonor is one of my family names :)

Subject: Re: having doubts From: Cynthia To: cat Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 14:55:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, I would recommend you change your alias because Catweasel is a troll here who often goes by many variations of Catweasel, including Cat. It you do change your alias, please let us know that's it's you (Cat) doing it in order to avoid confusion. About money and Maharaji. Maharaji has an insatiable lust for money and he receives it in small and large amounts from around the world. The first way he gets money is to hold an event or program. His representative companies charge high rates to get to a program for premies (PWKs) and for aspirants if they are allowed to go. Then you get knowledge. After that there is much pressure to donate money. He has all sorts of manipulative ways of getting money into the coffers of organizations or companies that were formed in which he has stock... and then it goes to him. There a lots of cash receipts that go unreported especially when he has Darshan lines (when a devotee goes before him to kiss his feet or bow before him). Many who do this ritual also give cash in envelopes or cards. Maharaji or Prem Rawat, has accrued much wealth (millions of dollars) from his followers over the past 30 years. I gave regularly before and during the time I lived in the ashram. He has confidential fund raising campaigns when he wants a new yacht or jet or Rolls Royce or a new palacial residence. Usually these are promoted by individual representatives of Prem Rawat who go on tour and speak to premies only, begging for money for this or that new expensive toy or project which M wants. He lives an oppulent life but when he came to the west, first to the UK, then the U.S. he didn't have any substantial money. He became a multi-millionaire on the backs of his followers. And it's a lifetime commitment, because frankly, it's a personality cult. I you want to dedicate your entire life to Maharaji (Prem Rawat) and not give money, you still will be hooked into a cult either way. It's your decision to make; I advise you to run as fast as you can from both your new friend and this cult. It's not worth it and Maharaji's meditation techniques don't have any special magic to them just because he says so. It's a lie. I wish you the best and hope you don't listen to the spin that Catweasel and Janelle have placed below. It's a cult. Not a meditation group, but a cult. Please be careful and feel free to post here if you feel the need. Best, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA

Subject: Re: Cynthia having doubts From: Janelle To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:20:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What kind of spin are you talking about? Cat asked a question - I simply answered it from my perspective. Maharaji does not ever receive money from holding a program - where you were misinformed on this matter I don't know. You speak with so much conviction, yet none of it is even remotely true.

Subject: And your reality is, Janelle? From: Tonette To: Janelle Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 08:55:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Geez. Talk about being in the dark ages! The question raised and pinpointed by you is, money. Where does M's wealth come from? I guess you must be one of those people who received knowledge via DVD or something. You maybe believe that M achieved his wealth because he's such a savy investor? Yeah right. Look at the sister web site here, ex-premie.org. Take a gander. I'll highlight a little what I saw first hand; while I was in the cult. 250,000 dollars received in unreportable cash via darshan lines in the 70's and early 80's. Darshan happened regularily 4 or 5 times a year. Family heirlooms donated when someone entered the ashram. Trust funds, land, ect. This BYW was a requirement for entrance. A jet plane, equipped with gold toilet,(no expense was spared) bought by and labored on by his students. Then abruptly sold, to the Maharashi, you know, another cult leader, the TM guy, for millions. A house and land in Malibu. I remember quite clearly the plea for funds so M could buy an additional 6 acres, in 1980 or thereabouts, because he needed to prevent anyone from building houses near his home. Cost? The troll for dollars? What his minions were sent out to collect? 250,000 dollars. The funds needed for an upgrade on the fuel tanks on his other jet? 200,000 dollars. Money you say? He doesn't have programs because of funds? Do the math. A one hour program, 60 bucks, in a hall seating 5,000. Hall, hotel costs, 15,000 dollars, maximun. 60 times 2,000 premies = 120,000 dollars. Get with it girl! He doesn't have to give darshan anymore! Do five or six of these programs and he's free and clear! And we haven't even mentioned his 'investements.' What a laughable question you propose regarding your comment on spin. Perhaps you should have your little trip, the wonderful world of your Master, stop spinning in order to take a realistic look and face some facts. Yeah it's not true allright. None of it. Tonette

Subject: money from programmes From: Livia To: Janelle Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 08:56:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What on earth do you mean, Maharaji does not ever receive money from holding a programme? What were all the envelopes for at the entrance to the darshan tunnel? I used to put money into them myself, and I remember us being specifically requested to give money, as Maharaji 'wanted money', not the things we used to give, such as pieces of fruit, flowers or treasured personal possessions. I remember this, Janelle, I haven't cooked it up

Subject: Very true, Livia... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 09:03:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...Hi there! Plus, I would buy fancy swan or lotus flower cards to write my love letter to him and then place the last of my traveling money in them because I believed that he wasn't worthy of those plain white envelopes! He was the Lord, as you know;) Love, Cynthia

Subject: me too, Cynthia From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 10:36:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia, thanks for your kind stance towards me down below (in response to CPG). Yes, I too used to buy beautiful cards with nice envelopes because I felt plain ones wouldn't suffice. What premie world did Janelle live in, I wonder?! Another thing, the very fact of better seats for big donors should be enough give anyone pause for thought. Donating big bucks is absolutely no sign whatsoever of strength of devotion. To a very rich person, a few thousand dollars isn't a lot. To a poor person a few pounds/dollars is a lot. Surely the proportion of one's wealth that one donates should be the relevant factor? Like the widow's mite story in the Bible, which always made a lot of sense to me. Maharaji has no way of detecting how much of people's disposable income they're handing over, so to give front seats for big donations has always sucked in my view. I once heard that Maharaji objected to the same premies always sitting at the front, and I thought 'oh, good', but at the last programme I went to, there were all the same honchos down at the front and I thought 'uh-oh, plus ca change...' And now it turns out it's the big donors who get those front seats. Eugh. Love to you, Livia XX

Subject: Prove it... From: Cynthia To: Janelle Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 06:26:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janelle, Janelle, just look at his life-style... How did the GulfStream V get purchased or leased? That's at least a $30-35+ million jet if you include the avionics and believe me I know from personal contact and experience with Maharji that he loves to have the best state of the art avionics in his aircraft. Jet fuel is expensive and so is maintaining a jet at any airport. He also has a helicopter and other aircraft and he has a pad to land the copter at his Malibu residence (which btw, his neighbors don't like)--I don't have the link right now but the town of Malibu rejected his request for more take offs and landings at his Malibu residence (it was published the LA newspaper). How did Amaroo get purchased and developed? How does he buy and maintain his expensive automobiles? I've seen many of them, they're not Hondas or Fords. Where did the money come from to by a 107 foot yacht that costs $7 million dollars? Why does he need a 107 foot yacht, for propagation? How does he have the ability to purchase, maintain, and keep the Malibu blufff house and all of his other homes around the world? The list goes on and on. Make no mistake, Maharaji is continuously upgrading and renovating these residences because he's never satisfied--he has an insatiable thirst to obtain material things. Oh, I forgot, how does he afford to have all of his computer equipment and a recording studio in his home? How does he pay for this? The money cames from somewhere and continues to come in because he was in no way a multi-millionaire when he started out in the U.S. and he's didn't obtain his wealth from working. I know that some people don't give money, but you can't say there is never an ongoing request and pressure for donations. I know there is because I've been premie. Don't forget that, Janelle--I was a premie and I'm not just a persona non grata on this message board--I was privy to a lot of secret information; I was not a PAM, but I have personal knowledge of how Maharaji works. You seem to think I have no experiences of Maharaji's way of life and his method pf doing things. Oh, but I do know, Janelle, I have a lot of experience in this area. Even when I was still a true-believing but non-practicing premie and had no contact with Maharaji or the communities (when there were communities) I received personal phone calls for donations of $100+. Out of the blue. And it was specifically for his jet--so I was told. If premies don't have money to give then they give their services for free or for a small stipend. Some of these people are professionals such as attorneys and accountants, others pick up pine needles on his driveway, make his meals, clean his homes, wash his expensive clothes--the list goes on and on. I have another question. With all his wealth, why is he charging premies $20 for a copy of the free magazine Leaders? Just go to his website, it's right there... Why does such a rich man need to charge his followers money for a vanity piece in a free magazine? Don't treat me as if I don't know how Maharaji operates because I do, Janelle, it's you who is misinformed. So if what I say isn't true, you have to prove it because I was there. Cynthia

Subject: Re: Prove it... From: Janelle To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 08:14:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You want me to prove that the tax deductible donations made out to elan vital as registration fees for the programs did not go directly into Maharaji's bank account so that he could buy yachts and mansions, recording studios, etc? Don't you think that a man brilliant enough to con intelligent people for 30+ years would be a little smarter than that? You can't tell me that money is being squeezed out of poor unsuspecting suckers. People give freely because they believe in him. You did for how many years? Weren't you having some kind of experience to justify your contributions? Didn't you believe in his mission? Why does that make you so angry? Because he is rich? Why don't you go on a crusade against baseball players - $10 million to 50 million a year just to play a game. How fair is that? I got a Leaders magazine for free - I didn't know they were for sale.

Subject: Re: Prove it... From: Cynthia To: Janelle Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 08:58:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was in the same personality cult as you are. You can't see it because you are in over your head, you're programmed and practice Maharajism, which he has made into a religion. I don't have any particular interest in whether or not you want to be in Maharaji's cult. That's for you to decide. And yes, we were suckers. We were young, programmed, gave up our free will (the mind) and worshipped someone who doesn't deserve the status of Lord of the Universe. Btw, I'm not happy that professional atheletes get paid the millions they get for playing sports. I don't even like sports. But last time I looked they weren't asking people to devote their lives to them and allowing them to kiss their feet as Prem Rawat does. And I'll bet you they donate a lot more to charities, set up bona fide foundations to help those less fortunate than they are. When the earthquake hit in India last year, Maharaji gave $5,000.00. Now that's plain old pathetic. He pays more than that for a watch or a suit. Why am I angry? I don't live in anger. This is my response to the cult-thoughts you write here and yes, I am indignant about this. I am also very indignant about how Maharaji failed to protect the children of his premies from Jagdeo, the pedophile. As for Maharaji's brilliance, well, Janelle, he's a brilliant conman. He brilliant at using people. He's not brilliant at being a decent human being, and that, is one major issue that's discussed here. He hates premies. But if you've only known his stage persona through going to programs and watching videos, you know nothing about him. He's a user and he's using you right now as you try to protect him. Can't you see that?

Subject: My last post. From: Janelle To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 11:31:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not trying to protect him - I'm just stating some true facts, just as you think you are. I guess my devotion was never as real as yours was, and so my hatred can never be as intense. I'll just take my 'cult thoughts' off of this forum for it seems to genuinely upset you. That was not my intent. Best Wishes.

Subject: before you go,Janelle From: The Falcon To: Janelle Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 08:50:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: of course you weren't trying to protect him, just your own belief systems! (which you really don't need) Why were you posting here anyway? I'm intrigued. all the best

Subject:   From:   To:   Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 14:28:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: It's not about hate... From: Cynthia To: Janelle Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 12:59:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's not about hate, Janelle, it's about opening ones eyes and mind to see the truth about Maharaji. You didn't upset me at all. I didn't feel upset while I was writing what I wrote--but I tend to be a bit intense at times. However, you seem to be upset by the word 'cult.' I don't know how to describe what Maharji does other than 'cult.' And the point is, the amount of devotion doesn't matter to Maharaji, it's the money he wants, not you. Maharaji has always pitted premie against premie in the matter of who's more or less devoted to him. Ever try writing to him? Ever get an answer? That you can't read my posts because I happen to be an intense person or feel indignant about the time and money I wasted on the guru, isn't your concern. Don't leave on my account. By all means, keep talking if you so desire and I'll just stay away from you. It wasn't my intention to give you the impression that I am filled with hate. Anything that I wrote above to you is really a reaction to what Maharaji has done to every premie. But it's your life and if he makes you happy--fine with me. Sincerely, Cynthia

Subject: :'From your perspective? .... From: Stonor To: Janelle Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:32:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How big'is your perspective that you can state it as 'truth'? As a 45 year-old who has attended many 'spiritual' programs over many years, I can assure you that Maharaji (isn't it now Prem Rawat?) charges A LOT for the little he gives you. But that's just my perspective. (I'd be willing to mention names, if you insist) Anna (Stonor is one of my family names)

Subject: Never Leave ROOM for Doubt!! From: CATWEASEL!! To: cat Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 01:30:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: THAT NAME IS TAKEN!!:p

Subject: Re: Never Leave ROOM for Doubt!! From: cat To: CATWEASEL!! Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 03:09:20 (PDT) Email Address: luni_cat61@hotmail.com Message: THAT NAME IS TAKEN!!:p --- is the name cat or catweasel taken? - if cat is taken what do i do about it?

Subject: Re: Never Leave ROOM for Doubt!! From: Catweasel To: cat Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 06:41:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I suggest you pick another. You would probably not enjoy the aggravation of using anything like my name or what is often shortened to. I would not be the most popular poster around here:)

Subject: Never Leave ROOM for two cats in the yard From: PollDoc To: Catweasel Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 21:11:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat - not be the most popular poster around here?? That's a fuckin' matter of fucking opinion mate!;)

Subject: Re: Never Leave ROOM for two cats in the yard From: Stonor To: PollDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 21:32:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David, I appreciate your current infatuation with html, but your post is UGLY in content and presentation. I thought you had a bit more class ... I know you have the potential. Anna

Subject: Apologies Anna From: SubdueDoc To: Stonor Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 21:53:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I realised my post was a little overdramatic and went back to make some edits. Unfortunately, it seems that if one opens another post before going back to one's own, then the edit door is shut. At symposium today I edited FIVE times before finally leaving a post. It's great! I feel one can really get a good grip on the message once one sees it up on the boards - and then make the necessary fine tunings from there. It appears easier on some boards then others. Alas, my shameful extravagance is now here for all to see.... and judge :( Doc - who has been appropriately HTML'd =) But still thinks Cat is more popular than he thinks - and they'll admit ;)

Subject: 'than', not 'that', David :) (edit incomplete :)... From: Stonor To: SubdueDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:05:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But thank you for your apology ... melodrama has never rubbed me the right way ... and I agree that Catweasel is much more popular than most will admit ... even I have had some interesting interactions with him on rare occasions and I bear absolutely no grudge against him at this point, no matter what he is motivated to post from time to time. Thanks for bothering to respond! :) Anna

Subject: But it says 'than' From: BadgrammerDoc To: Stonor Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:28:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't get it at all. After your completely correct correction (CCC) I went to try and change it... And the damn thing let me! This is despite me having been all over the place since posting it. Doc - who completely does not understand how the edit software turns itself on and off at will.=)

Subject: Good! From: Stonor To: BadgrammerDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:37:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It only 'doesn't let you change it' if your ISP has changed since you posted it ... which for me, with a high speed connection, means everytime I get off/get online. :) Haven't you been around a little longer than I have? ... now that I think of it, maybe not.

Subject: But... From: Not around longDoc To: Stonor Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:45:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I haven't changed my isp or even left the forum. I was reading and posting to Sir Dave over the page and never went offline. I do get cut off sometimes due to local cyber traffic but I don't remember that happening in the last half hour. Doc - who doesn't remember anything he does after half an hour.

Subject: So, there you go ... From: Stonor To: Not around longDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:50:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: no problem whatsoever to edit your post! :) What DOES Knowledge do for you if your conscious memory is so short term?

Subject: So, there you go ... From: Stonor To: Not around longDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:50:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: no problem whatsoever to edit your post! :) What DOES Knowledge do for you if your conscious memory is so short term?

Subject: err..... From: AnswerDoc To: Stonor Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 04:33:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It allows me to experience having no memory at all! I really dig that :) Doc - who was always into getting out of it ;)

Subject: MIAOW!!!!!! [nt] From: Tibbles To: Catweasel Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 14:19:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: to cat, NOT catweasel From: gerry To: Catweasel Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 07:15:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi cat, Yes, the rawat group is a cult and yes, they will soak you for constant donations once you've received the Special K. Why not save yourself a lot of time and money and learn the techniques from the ex-premie website. They will 'work' just as well and you won't have to waste your life, money, times and talent an a stinky personality cult. Also, this Catweasel fellow is a dyed-in-the-wool cult member and has been a constant disruptive and very negative influence on our discussion board. I'll try to dig up a picture and name of this goof ball later. Don't worry about him.

Subject: You may wish to reconsider From: Catweasel To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 06:28:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Listen stupid ,put whatever you like up.You think I'm so casual? I'll use a Goverment Department ISP next time.....

Subject: Re: to cat, NOT catweasel From: Janelle To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 13:05:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Cat, Donations are a way to support Maharaji's work if you choose to, but definitely not manditory. I have not given nor have I been asked for any money in years. There are meetings held occasionally for people who are interested in tax deductible donations, usually by invitation only. It is a very low key thing.

Subject: Re: Janelle From: Vicki To: Janelle Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 18:20:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janelle, I don't know what community you are from, but your experience definitely is not the norm. I was a premie for 28 years, yes 28, until nearly one year ago. I speak from personal experience. Frequently I was called to attend special video events with a special guest speaker. These always were people who were big in Elan Vital fundraising. We even, on some occasions, had to pay not only the expenses for the special hall they wanted, but their expenses as well. Only on two occasions did they pay their own way. Aspirants were specifically not invited. It was felt they shouldn't have to be in on fundraising. Fundraising is actually not the correct term. Yes, funds were wanted on that occasion, but what was really wanted was bigger monthly donations. If you've never seen the monthly donation envelopes, they come with your name on the label, and on the inside undercover there are boxes to check for turning over stocks, bonds, etc, as well as bequething funds upon death. Every event I've been to, the pressure was there to contribute. Contribution booths are staffed. Maharaji himself addresses this, only under the heading of 'participation.' Participation means donating cash, as well as free services. Mostly cash. So if you, Janelle, do not live in a community where this is constantly brought up, then I can only assume that you were one of the people considered dead weight by EV. There are statistics galore pinpointing where the contributing premies are. But the BEST part about contributions and participation is the 'large donor' category. If you give lots of cash, then you get invited to sit up front in the best seats. You will also get invited to gatherings that are hush hush except for other large donors. You will have a special table to pick up your 'seat card' ie ticket, at events. They don't want large donors in line with average premies lest the little secret gets out and there's anarchy at the event. I worked the area many times at events where "seat cards" are picked up by the attendees. We were given scripts to read verbatem, word by word, telling people how to pay for their cards, as there was no indication who paid and who didn't in advance. If people had already paid, we were then specifically told to tell them how to make an additional contribution. There was ugly pressure from the table where the money was taken because people were not forking over more cash. Infact, people were getting indignant even being asked if they had alread "donated" for their seat card. I had EV people screaming in my face because they weren't getting more money. It is told that there is never enough money to cover event expenses. When the math is done correctly, there is not only enough money, but surplus as well. Of course the "Speaker's", as Maharaji is referred to, fees are a well guarded secret so he and Elan Vital or the PPF can claim he doesn't charge for events or knowledge. Technically that might be true, but when expense tally hundreds of thousands of dollars, then he wouldn't need to be "paid". So tsk tsk Janelle, obviously you are not up to status quo as far as donations are considered, which is fine. But don't go telling this aspirant that there is no pressure or that money doesn't dictate where you sit in relation to Maharaji or how you are treated by Elan Vital, because it definitely does matter.

Subject: You speak from personal experience? From: StatDoc To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 21:37:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Phew! Hell, that's a relief, we thought for a brief moment that you might be speaking about the experience of all those people who were so unmercifully ripped off by the cult gestapo fundraisers over the years. Perhaps you could let us know which community you have been talking about? We will contact cult officials in the area and have the offending money grabbers hauled before the Area Commandant, with possible Court's Martial proceedings to follow. Not one person in the community of 300 where I live is ever pressured for cash. Funny that. It is entirely a voluntary thing for those of us with more money than others, to contribute to the infrastructure of events in this part of the world - as in any other part. Your post was deliberately and provocativly biased, full of untruths and entirely misleading. EG: 'There was ugly pressure from the table where the money was taken because people were not forking over more cash.' Do you mean the cattle prods and discreetly revealed shoulder holsters were NOT enough persuasion? 'They don't want large donors in line with average premies lest the little secret gets out and there's anarchy at the event.' Bollocks! I always line up with the plebs and they don't begrudge me a favourable ride at all. Hell, I pay for it! You make it all seem so sordid and nasty... But by golly... Why ain't that in the least bit surprising??!!

Subject: Re: You speak from personal experience? From: Vicki To: StatDoc Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 08:19:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Why ain't that i the least bit surprising??!!' ______ Not surprising at all. EV people and those doing service have always treated the big contributers with kid gloves. Wouldn't want to stop those bucks from coming in now would they? Why don't you get on the other side of the fence and do some service in the trenches, then you can see what really goes on. Until then you have no facts from which to speak.

Subject: Re: You speak from personal experience? From: FactfulDoc To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 22:57:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, I served my time in the trenches I can assure you. Please don't make hasty assumptions in order to prop up a failing argument. :)

Subject: How much money have you given m over the years? From: Stonor To: StatDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:17:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember reading stories about how generous towards m you've been over the years with your family's considerable wealth ... he never wanted it? Anna

Subject: Re: How much money ... From: Carlos - To Stoner To: Stonor Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:48:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It may interest you to know that M got offered money to reveal K on more than 1 occasion. The largest amount I heard of, back wnen DLM was still in debt to the tune of $3 million over the Mikkenium event. His turning it down was 1 of the things that freaked Bob Mishler out and caused him to leave M. That story I got from someone Mishler told it to, still fuming, the day after it happened. We talked about how wierd it was for Mishler to not trust M enough so that, in his doubt, he could fret about how we could get the money together.

Subject: Why on earth ... From: StonOr To: Carlos - To Stoner Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:56:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: do I have trouble believing this ... is it because the meditation techniques called 'Knowledge' are already public knowledge, to the extent that I have learned them all in various $10 to $15 per hour and a half yoga classes over the years ... along with many more techniques and practices? Or is it because I remember that the Beatles taught me that money can't buy you love, let alone spiritual development. I can't believe you posted this Carlos!!!!! It's a joke! Anna

Subject: No joke, Anna From: Carlos - To Ana To: StonOr Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 23:37:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We'd just pulled off something that must have impessed the hell out of the bussinessman who wanted to buy Knowledge. We'd just pulled off, about 6 months earlier, the largest civilian airlift in history. We'd leased 38 jumbo jets, 747s, to make it easier for premies and aspirants from around the world to come to the '73 Hans Jayanti, Millenium. We'd also got discounts for premies at the local Houston hotels. 40,000 rooms were rented under those discounts. Those stats are solid, Anna. They were made available to me cause I was still Treasurer of DLM of Puerto Rico when I got them, in late Dec. 73 or early Jan. 74. I can't swear Mishler didn't lie to the girl who shared it with me, cause I have no proof. But I know she told me the truth, the way we talked about it, the way she was puzzled about Mishler's being pissed about something M had done .. there is no reasonable doubt possible, Anna. And there would be no reason for him to lie. She was an ashram resident, the gopi type. If he'd wanted to impress her he certainly wouldn't have faked being steamed about something M did.

Subject: No but Glenji Did!!! From: SatgurusponsorDoc To: Stonor Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:38:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm sorry Anna, but like Shri Mahatma Carlosji I can't give you a real, heartfelt response without speaking about Maharaji and Knowledge in ways that would be offensive to the FA of this forum, and OT to it. But now we are on speaking terms. What about a date? I can meet you a little time before my upcoming flogging on the weather station. But only if you promise to 'dress' for the occasion. I presume you know of the event I'm talking about ;)

Subject: Re: No but Glenji Did!!! From: Carlos - To Doc To: SatgurusponsorDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:58:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for what, I think, you meant as a compliment (unless you were being sarcastic, I can just never tell with you, Doc!). But I don't yet, and probably never will, even if I'm given a 1,000 more lives, be entitled to the honorific 'Shri' or the title 'Mahatma'.

Subject: Alright then From: Docji To: Carlos - To Doc Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 22:46:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are a cybermahatma - a new breed of spiritual warrior, bringing peace and light and truth to the masses - in this case the cybermasses. You are now known (in my brain) as... Shri CyberCarlosji or... Shri CarlosCyberji :) :) :) ;) I'll have to consult the CCCC* to confirm which one will become official. *CatCovenCyberCouncil

Subject: Re: Alright then From: Carlos - To Doc (OT) To: Docji Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 13:45:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tho not a member of the Coven, I am aquainted with a number of their Members, and believe I can legitamately calaim the friendship of one. Further, I understand the basis of their power, which is, of course the root of their claim to Power and Authority. Therefor I will bow to the decision of their Council. All I ask is that, in the event that they agree with you, please have them also state in their ruling the fact that a CyberMahatma bears about the same relationship to a real world mahatma that a cyber Avatar bears to a real world Avatar.

Subject: Pranam MahatmaCarlosji From: Docji To: Carlos - To Doc (OT) Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 23:13:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I will convey your message of wisdom and clarity to the CC. :)

Subject: Pranam MahatmaCarlosji From: Docji To: Carlos - To Doc (OT) Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 23:12:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I will convey your message of wisdom and clarity to the CC. :)

Subject: Blatant evasion!!!! From: Stonor To: SatgurusponsorDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:48:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gotcha big time! :) Let me tell you, Daveji, there are people in this world I would devote my life to, but m is definitely not one of them. And no premie I've ever spoken with ... via email or in person, has ever given me even the slightest impression that Maharaji and Knowledge are anything at all worth pursuing. A date? My schedule is getting more and more hectic ... when will you be in Montreal? I promise you that I can 'dress' for any occasion ... whether suitably or not! As for the event you refer to ... I doubt that it will be in the fashion column of any newsrag.

Subject: Blatant TAX evasion you mean!!!! From: AnnaGotchaDoc To: Stonor Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 22:42:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh Anna, you're so funny :) Yea you got me. I sure ain't gonna start talking about my international financial transactions of the last 30 years - in a chatroom! Dumb I may be at times, but catatonic? I don't think so. K and M are NOT worth pursuing. It doesn't work like that. It's very simple. You call - they come. I guess I'll see ya at the weather channel where I'm up for a floggingg. Doc - who was 'Gotchadbigtime' by AnnaStoner ;)

Subject: Question, Doc... From: Cynthia To: AnnaGotchaDoc Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 11:48:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If Maharaji claims that none of his representative organizations through the years, such as DUO, DLM, EV, and now Prem Rawat Foundation is not a religion then why does he get tax free status as a charity or a foundation? And EV was a legally registered religion under the incorporation laws of the United States, plus most of the other counties. What's the explanation? I know you have information about tax laws, being that you are a trust fund 'kid.':) Cynthia

Subject: Different answer than Doc's From: Carlos - To Cynthia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 14:09:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not every church is part of a Religion. Not when you are talking about churches recognized as such for tax purposes. I'm a member of such a church, the American Indian Unity Church. While our weekly Gathering has some of the qualities of a church service, the Oral Tradition of the Sioux Nation, even including some of the rituals practiced by American Indians that we do would have to stretch the definition to be called a religion. In fact, Little Crow, who is an expert in the field of Indian Studies (he was a Professor in AmerInd Studies at CalState (Long Beach) for many years), states categorically that the Lacota/Dakota Sioux do not have a religion but have, instead, what could properly be called a world view. Yet we are a church, in order to 'legally avoid, not illegally evade' taxes. The quote, incidentally, is from a US Supreme Court judge. The Complete quote is 'It is almost the duty of every American citizen to legally avoid, not illegally evade, taxes where ever they can so do'.

Subject: Answer, Cyn(thia) From: TrustfunDoc To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 23:16:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's just about simple economics really C. When one has an 'income' that is not channelled through the normal government placed organisations, one naturally minimises the amount required to give to them. All our family friends and aquantances do it, the basic argument is simple... ..'Why give the Government money to give to Lockheed to build more missiles so they can pulverise the world into more pieces - when you can share it amongst your family and friends?' What's the point of donations to anyone or anything going straight to the Government? No point at all. The Government, in it's wisdom, recognises certain organisations that they deem need not be subject to the level of tax that commercial enterprises are. So they allow them exempt status. But worry not - the rules are very strict and strictly enforced. I dunno how you feel about that, but at least I know I can sleep soundly knowing that my recent donations will definitely be going towards the solid gold plated hub caps for M's new Lexus 480L rather than to the Australian Government to spend on getting some silly British warship off the rocks it crashed into near Lord Howe Island. ;)

Subject: In response to Vicky From: Janelle To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 21:02:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have also had Knowledge for Twenty something years, and I don't think I was ever considered a dead weight by Elan Vital. I contributed when I could, and was often in charge of fundraising in my area. In recent years, my mother-in-law has needed financial help, so we stopped contributing to Elan vital and give the money to her instead. Nobody ever came to me and asked why the contributions have stopped, and I still get good seats at events. I can honestly say that there has never been any pressure on me to contribute. I did it because I wanted to. I never gave to Maharaji personally because it always seemed his lifestyle was very extravagant. I have heard alot of people here comment on how they gave out of guilt - but those are your issues, not his.

Subject: You BAD premie. Disobeying Agya! From: cq To: Janelle Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 08:13:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You naughty, naughty premie, Janelle! You mean you gave Maharaji money, despite him saying (as Cat quotes above) that he doesn't want your money? How could you do that? - I mean - forcing him to accept something he doesn't want??? It's all the premies' fault, really it is. ;)

Subject: to Janelle: your issues, not his From: AV To: Janelle Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 00:58:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, I had knowledge from way back also. the money thing was never really an issue personally, but there certainly was calls for donations at events. I remember a Rome festival with Joe Anctil on stage getting a load of plastic buckets passed round like tupperware collection plates! Early on, it seemed cute, M was Lord, and because there was nothing we could ever do to repay him, the purchase of a flash car or two seemed a pretty innocent device to focus our devotion; the giving was actually a gift to US, because it provided the boon of service. In later years, that pattern had become embedded into premie life, and few had any idea of the extent of M's material possesions. In the community, before they crumbled, there was ALWAYS some kind of call for money, it was an inexorable and accepted part of premie life. Most of had a picture of poor EV personnel trying their damndest to maintain M's touring schedule on a shoestring budget, hence the overinflated prices for merchandise at events etc. In the ninetees when EV mailshots became regular, it stands out in my mind now that no mail ever EXCLUDED a request for money; coupled with stuff about opportunity and gratitude. Nothing EVER in terms of support or communication channels for premies with difficulties, the sort of thing you may well expect from an organisation that appears to offer something that never perishes, and how that may impact on a life that does. But as I said, it all seemed so much part of, and perhaps an extention of that which we innocently entered into in previous years, that no alarm bells ever rang. You can't see the whole picture from the inside. There certainly does appear to be exclusive large donor events, and it wasn't until I heard about it from a friend of a premie who qualifies, that I actually became aware of the practise. I too only contributed when I wanted to, but always felt bad that I never threw everything I had at the lotus feet, falling upon the mercy of the Lord to sustain me. So if presenting yourself as Lord induced those dilemmas into anyone's life, surely the issues are his?

Subject: Re: to Janelle: your issues, not his From: Janelle - to AV To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 11:06:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If presenting yourself as Lord induced those dilemmas into anyone's life, surely the issues are his? Good point AV. I always tried to keep my focus off of the money. I receive mail from plenty of organizations which offer nothing to me personally, but are constantly soliciting for donations. We all realize the expense involved in M touring to the extent he does. All I'm saying is that $ collected thru programs by Elan Vital has never gone to M personally. His personal finances are a whole different thing - funded by businesses, investments & large donors who choose to donate large sums of $. Why shouldn't they get good seats at programs. People who do service & don't donate anything also get good seats.

Subject: HEY EVERYONE JANELLE SAYS From: Vicki To: Janelle - to AV Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 12:13:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ' All I'm saying is that $ collected thru programs by Elan Vital has never gone to M personally. His personal finances are a whole different thing - funded by businesses, investments & large donors who choose to donate large sums of $. Why shouldn't they get good seats at programs. People who do service & don't donate anything also get good seats' ____________________ How many people here got good seats during the years and years of doing service? I certainly never did, and I spent my own money putting myself up in hotels to do pre-event service. Janelle still believes the information posted on the Maharji sights that his income was always and is now a seperate issue. Janelle, he made his money off of the darshan donations, the premie donations, and premie businesses'. He has shell corporations that hide his assests and keep him from paying outrageous taxes. And he does make money off of events under the title of 'expenses'. So unless you personally have your hands on the business books or the free flowing cash, you have nothing to back your claims with.

Subject: HEY EVERYONE - gang mentality!! From: IndividualDoc To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 23:59:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: oh whoopeedo EVERYBODY .....let's all have a good laugh at Janelle shall we? No wonder there is scorn and contempt for F7 posters. It's just like a girly school bitchfight isn't it? Trying to get everyone onside to humiliate someone else. Ever noticed 'Vicki' that the ONLY people here who are respected are those who speak only for themselves and have no need to get the crowd on side to help gain the upper hand over someone else? As for this obscenity... ''you have nothing to back your claims with' Would you care to provide some proof of this??? 'He has shell corporations that hide his assests and keep him from paying outrageous taxes.' Yea, I'll bet you can Doc - who had hundreds of front to third row seats over the years without paying for them.

Subject: Re: HEY EVERYONE - gang mentality!! From: Livia To: IndividualDoc Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 09:44:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In the light of what you said here to Marianne last week, and the way you've flamed many many people, both here and at LG, who were just writing about their observations and feelings that didn't agree with yours.....well, I think you're just about the last person with the right to accuse Vicki of bitching and bullying. Janelle has been trying to defend the indefensible by claiming that Maharaji has never added to his personal coffers through programmes and even you must know that's blatantly untrue. Sometimes people come here and talk such twaddle it's hardly surprising they elicit an irritable response. Grow up, Doc. Livia

Subject: I used to believe that stuff too... From: Chuck S. To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 18:28:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...until I made some inquiries. Many non-profit organizations make their books and tax records public, to show their doners where the money goes, and thus encourage donations. It is not strange or uncommon to make such information available when asked. I made two such queries, explaining that I was a long-time doner. I was told in no uncertain terms that there were no such public records to see. If there is nothing to hide, then he should hide nothing. If there is nothing to hide, then lets see the financial records. But no. The premies are instead told 'Never doubt the purity of The Master', and not to ask Maharaji questions. That is supposed to be enough. Maharaji has the proof of what's what, and he's not sharing. It's not hard to guess why.

Subject: Re: Janelle From: Carlos - To Vicki To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 18:54:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At the recent Pasadena event I was in aprox the 1st ten rows. Yes, I pre registerred and paid my $65 or so. That is the first time I've been able to pay in a year or so, tho, cause of $ problems due to my health problems. I've gone to programs free more often than I've paid, I've never been a big money doner, tho I'd like to be one day, yet I've had 1st row seats, been in the Close seats more often than the 'nose bleeds'. How cxome this doesn't jibe with your version? I'm telling the truth, and I don't believe you are intentionally lying on trhe parts I think you are wrong about. (I once saw the Presedent of EVInternational (Tim Gallway's brother in law, haven't been able to remember his name for some reason) scold someone cause they'd tried to get some bucks out of someone, so I know people sometimes did that and it WASN'T with any official OK (tho people may have claimed it was). So I'm really asking if you have an explanation for the discrepancy.

Subject: Ho ho ho, 'Janelle' From: gerry To: Janelle Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 14:25:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Donations...a very low key thing. Yes, and I'm Santa Claus.

Subject: Re: Ho ho ho, 'Janelle' From: Carlos - To gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 16:00:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tell me, gerry, where the rumors that you lived at theNorth pole ever true? And what about the elves, are they real?

Subject: Re: Ho ho ho, 'Janelle' From: cq To: Carlos - To gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 08:21:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Carlos, it's been a while since we crossed swords (on Life's Great I think it was - about a year or so ago - something about you encouraging people to donate to Maharaji...) Anyway, hello again. Did you know that the image of Santa Claus that kids around the world know and love was invented by the Coca-Cola Co. around the turn of the 20th century (i.e. the late 1890's). And that the image of the Second Coming of the Lord that Rawat grew rich on was invented in the late 1960s by Prem Rawat's mother - Mata Ji ... with the adolescent complicity of her family. To think that some people STILL encourage their kids to believe in that kind of thing!

Subject: Re: Ho ho ho, 'Janelle' From: Carlos - To cq To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 14:28:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wouldn't say we've 'crossed swords', as I don't recall you ever having been abusive or improper in your behavior towards me. No, I didn't know about Coca Cola and Santa. But the aproach to M that he desecularized is part and parcel of Hinduism. Now, I'm not trying to get into a debate with you about if he dsecularized things or committed revisionism. But when the High Priest of the Hindu Temple in Ceylon (Shri Lanka) where Ravana supposedly performed his offerings to Brahma that supposedly pleased Him enough to grant to Ravana the powers Rama had to overcome to defeat him, which is usually considered one of the 5 or so Temples most important to the Hindu faith, claimed M to be an Avatar in 72. Which indicates that it was Hinduism, not his mom, that was the source for the aproach to M you credit her with. Just in the interest of accuracy, and in the belief that assertions should not be unsuported.

Subject: please expand on this, Carlos From: cq To: Carlos - To cq Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 05:52:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Carlos, in those self-same interests you mention (i.e. 'in the interest of accuracy, and in the belief that assertions should not be unsupported') - would you mind saying who this 'High Priest of the Hindu Temple in Ceylon' is, or was? I've spent some time in Sri Lanka, and the country is predominantly Buddhist. Admittedly the Tamil Tigers have been influential in trying to get recognition of rights for Hindu settlers (predominantly from Tamil Nadu in southern India) for over a decade now, (a fact, or rather a war, which I'm sure hasn't escaped your attention) - but this is the first time I've heard of Rawat's name mentioned in the same breath as Sri Lanka. I know he was said to have connections with the (mostly late, since that appalling incident a couple of years ago) Nepalese Royal Family, but, as you say, 'in the belief that assertions should not be unsupported', could you please give some evidence of authenticity for saying that: 'the High Priest of the Hindu Temple in Sri Lanka ... claimed M to be an Avatar in 72'. Names? dates? location? Please.

Subject: Re: please expand on this, Carlos From: Carlos - To cq To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 14:21:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I learned about it in 73 when I was in Puerto Rico, and don't believe I ever had physical documentation. The best I can provide you with at the moment is only the type of stuff EPO routinely accepts as adequate, which is one of the things I routinely twit JHB and you guys about. So my apologies; by my own standards all I really gave you was the atribution of a claim I got from a 2nd or 3rd party. My ownly excuse isn't a very good one, either. I didn't realise I was using a stronger word to back my assertion than was justified. There was no intent to decieve. If I remember I'll ask Billy Faichild or Vannessa the next time I see them, and report back if I get more information. I am relatively sure it was one of them or Elisha Perez. And if it was Elisha, I've pretty well given up on ever seeing him again. If I can find the time I'll try and do some research to identify the temple; I may be able to come up with it that way. On Nepal, I knew we had a connection to the gentleman who was the jeweller to the court (he was connected to Rheika Dasi, a very dear friend of mine, which is why I know). Are you saying that one or more of the royal family was purportedly premies?

Subject: cq, I vaguely remember From: Jethro To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 11:20:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: being told about this priest when I came in 1974. He was a Hindu priest who got K. There was also at least one priest as is documernted in the book 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji'. I believe that there are still copies in existance even though they were ordered burned in the 80s. (Anyway were there any premies who did not claim m to be the avatar?)

Subject: Re: cq, I vaguely remember From: Carlos - To Jethro To: Jethro Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 16:52:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jethro, the way I got it, from a premie (I believe Vanessa who got Japan started, or Billy Fairchild, who got Jamaica started, or Elisha Perez who helped get Japan, Columbia and Puertu Rico started) who got it direct from the High Priest, he was NOT a premie, just a Hindu priest. Which still doesn't mean the claim was accurate, that wasn't why I brought it up. It just goes to show that the stuff brought over in the early days along with K was Hindu baggage that Mata Ji took advantage of, not crap that she invented out of whole cloth. There was also a premie Elisha knew who went to Taiwan and lived in a Buddist monastary there whose abbott decided, based on the way the guy practiced and the effect on him that his practice had, I guess, that his teacher had to be a living Budda. Again, the point is NOT to push my beliefs at you guys. Just to bring out that a lot of the things weren't as black and white in the 70s as you sometimes make them, loke the Hindu 'Satchdabar' crap being invented by Mata Ji. It wasn't.

Subject: Carlos (sort of OT) From: Jethro To: Carlos - To Jethro Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 21:41:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not sure of I've asked you this before, but were you the Carlos who was head of DLM in Israel 1973/4?

Subject: RDoesn't it all sound silly now? From: gerry To: Jethro Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 16:34:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Avatars, Hindu priests, masters, gurus, what a load of bollocks, if I can say bollocks, that is.

Subject: Yes it felt almost strange From: Jethro To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 21:59:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: writing that stuff, but I have to say that I was more into it than Carlos. Sheesh at one time I used to see 'His' face behind loads of people(without any drugs)and couldn't understand how everyone didn't realise that The Lord is here. I remember meeting my teen-hood friend David Passes soon after getting k(74) and was chuffed to find an old friend who was a premie. I was even more chuffed to hear from him that 'it would be all over by the 80s'(ie everyone would know He is here). Being brought up Jewish, (ie strictly monotheistic, no-form-god), I found that worshipping prem, helped me understand Xtians'love of Jesus(even though I new that I had the true devotion) etc etc. I just loved it when He wore that crown and the malas etc. Still I am told now that it was dream just like Bobby Ewing's death. Videos like Satguru has Come were just a creation of mind and didn't really happen. bye for now Jethro

Subject: Organized religion and meditation From: Dep To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 17:22:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Meditation and shamanism are feared, forbidden and even condemned by orthodox religion. Why? The threat is ultimately political. Personal experience makes people suspicious about dogma and propaganda and they become difficult to control by force of 'authority.' People in touch with their original nature, people in touch with direct experience, lose interest in serving those that rule them.

Subject: Re: Organized religion and meditation From: Jerry To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 17:15:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Meditation and shamanism are feared, forbidden and even condemned by orthodox religion. What religions would those be? My understanding is that Christian based religions, at least, have acknowledged meditation as a good centering practice. Of course, any talk of gurus being Christ incarnate are verbotten, though. People in touch with their original nature, people in touch with direct experience, lose interest in serving those that rule them. Meditation isn't the only way that people achieve a deep sense of their 'original' nature. Many mystics in Islam, Christianity, and Judaism claim the same thing. Are you saying that only through meditation can people come to a sense of self. There's a long line of mystics that beg to differ. Anyway, I think meditation is as much bullshit as you think organized religion is. And the clowns who brought meditation to the west have screwed it up for most people if any benefits were to be had anyway. It's not as if any of these gurus came here with just meditation to offer. I don't think I have to tell you what they wanted in return for it. Much more than any organized religion asks for.

Subject: Re: Organized religion and meditation From: Dep To: Jerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 20:06:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My understanding is that Christian based religions, at least, have acknowledged meditation as a good centering practice. Well it depends on what they mean by meditation. I asked a priest about meditation once and he thought it meant thinking nice thoughts. I've been out of the Christian loop for about 25 years but if some Christian religions are beginning to acknowledge meditation as a centering device, good, that is a step in the right direction. They better start doing something new because many mainline churches are beginning to empty out.

Subject: Re: Organized religion and meditation From: Bolly To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 08:42:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Many mainline churches are beggining to empty out? Bit like guru worship sessions I mean self knowledge lessons, so much of a muchness huh.

Subject: Re: Organized religion and meditation From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 08:25:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, there has been a tradition of contemplation and meditation from the third century on, especially in the Eastern church. In fact, the tradition can only be found in the mainline churches; your ?experiential churches? consider such practices to be demonic. Are you totally unaware of centuries of Contemplative Orders? Have you ever heard of Hildegard von Bingen, St. John of the Cross, Theresa de Avila? Centering prayer, the Jesus Prayer, and the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises are just part of a long tradition of meditation and contemplation in Christianity. However, none of these involve touching one?s eyes, inserting digits in ears, or the other practices of the so-called Knowledge.

Subject: Re: Organized religion and meditation From: Jerry To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 11:43:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And don't forget the rosary beads, Mickey. My personal favorite. I really should have become a catholic monk instead of a premie. I would have fit right in. Unfortunately, I thought Maharaji might be the risen saviour, so where else was I to go but to the lotus tootsies? Silly me, or so today's 'wiser' and more 'evolved' premies would have me believe. The fact that I actually thought that maybe, just maybe, Maharaji might be Jesus Christ, himself, come again. Where do I ever get such ideas?

Subject: Re: Organized religion and meditation From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 14:15:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Where did you get such ideas? Well, there was a lot of whispering going on to the effect that Maharaj-ji WAS Jesus Christ AND the greatest incarnation of God to ever walk the planet! Of course, we should not have listened to such talk. Maybe we're the guys Dep is talking about, the guys who didn't get Knowledge!

Subject: (dis?) Organized religion From: bill To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 17:53:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: HI Mickey, Thanks for the reply, by the way, reading your posts way below, I see you work with some really poor folks as well as other levels of society. 3 out the 4 boys I have have just started making money and I reccomended that they take 10% and give it to just that level of poverty that you deal with. How about if we send money and items to you to give out? You are a busy guy so I dont want to drag you through a subject you are not really iterested in, or a subject that you feel may have meager merit... There seems to be a constant cloud around the affairs of men and we are not able to work out the issues and or even solve the dilemma of how to present the workings of god in life to the next generation. They always inherit a world where some factor keeps the place in a turmoil. That leaves me with two questions, WHat reason for the turmoil? And to properly answer that, I first need to know what causes and keeps the turmoil intact in spite of the attempts by humans to bring order. Any guesses?

Subject: You looking for Satan, Bill? [nt] From: Neville To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 02:06:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: You looking for Satan, Bill? From: bill To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 16:37:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Neville, I did post way below to you twice actually, once, somehow it didnt make it, the second was a basically a copy of the above. I may be the only one here interested in this end of things, which is ok of course, but I am stuck there and I will need to see it somewhat clearer before I can move on. The forces we deal with in life that are bigger than just the next guy are facets of one overall strategy employed by the overall power to --- --- - well my previous guess was --- -that the power is primarily interested in creativity. I would like to see the elephant if you know what I mean. Not just a part. I settled for the rawat family nonvision and am somewhat driven to see this life as honestly as I can percieve it based on the evidence, and of course conjecture. But, conjecture based off the evidences and limits I see us humans encountering. The forum has been very helpful over the years with all the subjects folks have contributed. I tried to nutshell it as much as possible in the above post, heck, it isnt demonology, or something revelations based, but life based. The design here sure isnt random based, we are in a tight control here. Even with all our free will, We are severly monitored. The evidence for that is a few things, the big one is how no one is allowed to escape the problem maker. No one can go from success to success to success. Not even one person escaped the notice. I would like to understand that a bit more. Very realist stuff.

Subject: Re: You looking for Satan, Bill? From: Neville To: bill Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 04:11:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Statistically, some people *do* avoid the problem maker, but their numbers get increasingly rare going-on-zero as you approach the wee small end of the probability curve. As evidence for outside interference it isn't convincing. We're all in competition, with our environment and each other. That explains the bulk of our problems. The Christian position is that 'God scourges all those that he loves'--that God tests and grows us--but that presupposes a relationship with God. My personal conviction is that life is not so much about creativity (although I am a writer and musician) but about relationships. The issue of Satan intrigues me because of the Christian perception that he is the 'ruler of this present world'. If so, he may be doing a good job, since we can look back over at least the last thousand years and see steady improvements in the human situation. Neville

Subject: Re: You looking for Satan, Bill? From: bill To: Neville Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 18:58:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Neville, I will have to restate the interference issue. I will post to you in some thread near the top in the coming days. Have a good weekend Neville

Subject: Re: Organized religion and meditation From: Jeff To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 20:11:17 (PDT) Email Address: jefflyttle@gilanet.com Message: First time here at ex-premie site. Am curious, but so far am happy I can see the old pics and rmember all those happy days. Practicing Knowledge has kept me alive through all the bad times and do not understand how anyone can prefer conceptual chaos over experience of the inner Light that MJ showed me 30 years ago. Am student of world religions and have found thousands of references to this Knowledge in all scriptures. What's the complaint?

Subject: This isn't the Ex-premie site, Jeff From: gerry To: Jeff Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 20:54:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That would be www.ex-premie.org. Hey well, welcome to our discussion. There's a lot of ground to cover for a newbie and you can quickly come up to speed by reading the 'real' website. I really appreciate your using your name and leaving an email address and do understand it can be a quite unsettling finding out the truth about Prem Rawat and his Maharaji cult. Yes, many religions talk about an inner experience when one turns his senses, well, inward. Few here would deny that. The devil is in the interpretation of this highly subjective experience. Of course most of these religions have there roots in a pre-scientific time before we understood much about psychology and brain functioning (which is not to say we don't have a long ways to go in these directions.) Look, Jeff, I didn't 'practise' Knowledge for thirty years (it's self knowledge now, btw and he's Prem, not Maharaji now)and I also survived a lot of bad times and feel very happy and fulfilled without devotion to another person or spiritual practise, so I don't really get your point. But that's what this forum is all about: clarifying the issues around our involvement in this cult and getting to the truth about ourselves and our illusions about Prem Rawat, Knowledge and his brand of hindu guru worship. Hope you have your seat belt fastened, fella! EPO www.ex-premie.org

Subject: Re: This isn't the Ex-premie site, Jeff From: Carlos - To gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 17:59:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One of the most coherent, even handed posts I've ever seen you publish, gerry. Reminded me of why I tried to get to know you off web, lo, those many months ago! (What, 8? 9 months ago?) Keep that up and you moght have more luck seducing us over to the dark side, grasshopper! (To thouroughly mix metaphors...) Best wishes.

Subject: Re: This isn't the Ex-premie site, Jeff From: Stonor To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 21:06:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gerry! I agree with all your points, although I'm not sure about the 'pre-scientific time' stuff! I've survived many things most people would call nightmares or horror movies without any formal religion or religious practices, let alone a 'guru' like m! Maybe Jeff was just wondering why Deputy Dog suggested that meditation was taboo for mainstream religion ... which does seem like a fairly extreme stretch for me too! :) But, like you, I don't understand how Jeff (hi Jeff, would welcome your comments! :) could suggest that m or whoever he calls himself from year to year, could have had any personally concrete role in helping him through life. And I'm glad you've sent him to EPO - it made a huge impression on me when I was wondering. Love to you, Patty, Sophia and the cats! Anna

Subject: Hi Stonor (OT) From: gerry To: Stonor Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 21:57:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Alas, Sophia! I think I'm gonna have to resort to chemicals on that girl. I have given her several baths but the aphids still stalk her relentlessly. Speaking of, I just had a wrestling match with Uncle Spunk in the (newly installed) bathtub and I'm not sure who won. Still counting scars. Just kidding, he's very good about it actually, as long as he doesn't see me get his towel out beforehand. But I'm still up to outsmarting a cat, at least I think I am. And who's Patty again? :) OH my live in girlfriend! Doin' great and relieved to be out of school for the summer. I can't even begin to imagine what Dep is on about. He's way over my head. I leave him to you. You'll have to tell us your Freddy Krueger stories sometime...

Subject: Hi Gerry (OT) From: Stonor To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 21:58:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know if you read my reply/post at Weather about it, but I have an excellent Rodale book on plant problems and I'd like to know if you've turned over all the 'stones' wrt Sophia. If ants aren't involved, which doesn't seem at all likely if you've brought her indoors, and strong hose spray doesn't get rid of them sufficiently, dormant oil would seem to be the next step, as opposed to chemicals. Is Uncle Spunk the hairless one? I'd love to meet him one day! I'm glad that others have taken on Dep, because the first time he passive aggressively tried to get me to try 'Knowledge' a few years ago was enough for me ... besides, he still won't talk to anyone who hasn't (officially) received 'Knowledge' no matter what he says ... the evidence is in the way he won't talk to me - don't know what his 'rationalization' is, and don't care. :) Glad to hear that Patty's doing well - a live in girlfriend for as long as you two have been together would automatically be 'common law marriage' in Quebec! Send her my love! I've already told everyone here (then) a number of my 'Eddy Krueger' stories, and this conversation is already OT!!!! (and they're really not a lot of fun for me to reguritate, unless there's a reason) Drop by the Weather ... Hugs, Anna

Subject: Hi gerry, let me explain From: Dep To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 11:16:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't even begin to imagine what Dep is on about. He's way over my head. I leave him to you. Gerry, My post was in response to the series of exchanges I had with Marianne about teaching meditation in jail to rehabilitate and change prisoners (see posts on S. N. Goenka sucessfully teaching Vipassana in Tihar Jail in India). I also had a series of rather nasty exchanges with Mickey the Pharisee who, as a clergyman, feels that a nap is better than meditation. My point is that organised religion is more concerned with using rules, concepts, guilt and fear to control behaviour, rather than empowering people using meditation. IMO you can either empower people through meditation and by doing so turn them on to their own strength; or you can control them with rules and regulations and threats of hell if they don't behave appropriately. My point is that organised religion has gone the external control, dogma route, which works only up to a certain point. Meditation is superior. IMO it is more productive to listen to your heart, your inner voice and be truthful to yourself rather than some clergyman/policeman, some external authority telling you what to do. All our concepts and mental conditioning limits us. Meditation allows us to get in touch with our innate inner purity so we will react to situations appropriately and even to use our mind when appropriate. Having people go within is the best way to rehabilitate and change people. With meditation people become a living example of the Ten Commandments rather than obedient slaves to external masters like jailers or clergymen. It is better to empower rather than overpower. So that’s what I’m on about. Hope it is not over your head.

Subject: Uh-oh, the jig is up! From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 12:12:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know, Dep is right; in fact, in the third year of seminary we are all required to take a class titled: Keeping the Truth from the Masses. It is a very important class and teaches clergymen how to boss people around and prevent them from finding their true selves through applying pressure to their eyes, inserting their thumbs in their ears, breathing until they are snoring under their blankets, and, of course, drinking post-nasal drip and telling themselves that it is nectar. I?ll tell you, nothing frightens me more than the thought that someone will start meditating and think for themselves, because I remember how individualistic and non-conforming those premies were; they weren?t the kind of people who would repeat the same banal statements over and over just because their guru said them. In fact, if I?m in the pulpit and I see someone start to rub their eyes, I scream ?STOP THAT!!!!? because I know they just might see the Divine Light and it would be all over for me! It is possible that not everyone accepts Dep definition of 'experience.' Some people, even some folks here at this site, don't exactly think that the so-called Knowledge is much of a 'spiritual experience.' And there are people in the world who experience what they call God through orthodox or organized religion. Now, if only I could convince myself that activating my optic nerve was a profound spiritual experience, I could finally understand the Bible in the same manner as Deputy Dog. Those of you who remember the cartoon Deputy Dawg may recall that the primary character was dumb as a post and a bit of a hot head. Of course, those premies who led the CAC attack, and of course, their Guru are all living examples of the Ten Commandments. Whoops, there I go, bossing people around again!!!

Subject: Re: Uh-oh, the jig is up! From: Neville To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 17:23:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is addressed to Mickey because I don't bother with Dep any more. It has to be admitted that there is a major anti-institutional thread running through the New Testament, and that, by definition, this thread is anathema to religious institutions. Christ's attack on the Pharisees and teachers of the Law was comprehensive. It was a diverse attack on a diverse phenomenon (or syndrome) that seems to mark every religious tradition. The characterstics of this syndrome include legalism, traditionalism, ritual, piety and self-righteousness (and probably others). Christ's greatest enemies were not the Romans, but the *religious* people. Christ promised freedom to those who 'continued in his word', and my experience has been that this freedom is not political but spiritual, and consists mainly in freeing oneself from the religious nonsense (you can add sacramentalism to the above list) that has accreted around Christianity. Thus, personally, I maintain close relationships with Christian friends, but do not go to church; I engage in no rituals that I am aware of (I do not take communion) and live according to just two laws (Love God and your neighbour as yourself). Comments? Neville

Subject: Re: Uh-oh, the jig is up! From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 08:25:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neville I would agree that there are passages in the gospels which are anti-institutional, but they do not appear in Paul?s writing, which pre-date the four canonical gospels. However, references to the sacraments of baptism and the eucharist appear in the Pauline epistles and it is stated that Christ instituted both sacraments. The Christian faith has been corporate from the beginning, with small communities in different cities forming from the start. Even those who attempted to pursue the faith in an individualistic manner, such as the Anchorites and Stylites of the third century ended up coming together in communities. I think the idea that ?where two or three are gathered in my name, I am in the midst of them? is what church is all about. The idea that Jesus is revealed in the breaking of the bread dates to the beginnings of the faith. It?s true that the institution of bishops and deacons, and later presbyters, are later additions, and the charismatic or ?Spirit-directed? churches ended with the Montanists of the second century. But even these charismatic communities had the sacraments and rules. The document titled the Didache (from the first century, around 70 CE) establishes a eucharistic prayer and gives rules for how traveling prophets and charisma tics are to behave. Of course you should ?love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength (the Shema) and love your neighbor as yourself, but I think that you miss an important aspect of the faith by ignoring community and the two sacraments. That is just my personal opinion.

Subject: Re: Uh-oh, the jig is up! From: Neville To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 09:19:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I made it clear that I maintained relationship with Christian friends, so I am in no way ignoring the community--it's the institutional side of things that I can't stand. (And I really can't stand it--the theatricality, the pious voices, all the faking of the numinous.) It's my belief that there has been a steady incremental intrusion of religiosity into Christianity. While Paul was not explicitly anti-institutional he did expend a lot of energy attacking one of the major symptoms of religiosity, namely legalism. His instruction for organising meetings was minimalist in style. And communion: can you answer the single simple question: what does it do? As far as I can see it does nothing. It's the only time Christ seemed to lapse into anything like ritual behaviour, and I'm convinced (therefore) that it must be a misinterpretation. 'Do this in remembrance of me'--as if I need wine and wafers to remember Christ. The early church did not practice it as a ritual, but as a meal. When I eat a meal with my Christian friends there is an experience of koinonia that verges on the tangible. We call it 'communion', but can one point to any experience less like communion--with anyone--than the isolated taking of bread and wine in the communion ritual? The truth of communion is that no-one seems to really know what it is about, and thus cannot possibly know how it should be practised. An illustration: I could be facetious and say 'I took it in 1978—will that do?' What does our theology tell us about the necessary frequency of communion? Probably nothing, because we do not know its function. Luther, Zwingli and Calvin could not agree on its meaning. We have no idea if we are doing it 'right'. It all looks to me like a question of the glasses you wear. If you wear religious glasses you see a precise ritual (with a supernatural outcome) you must engage in or your soul is in danger. If you look with theological glasses you see a bunch of OT symbols and links, blood of the New Covenant and so forth. (What was the New Covenant for if not to spare us all the legalistic and ritual elements in Judaism?) If you try to look without any glasses at all you see…what? I see a man having a meal with his friends. Two or three (NOT many) gathered in his name…that's intimacy, and that might be what it's all about. Neville

Subject: Clarifications From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 11:35:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you don't think that I support legalism; I think that compassion is what is important in religion. As for Communion, I don't believe your immortal soul is in danger if you don't take it. I was responding to your comments regarding ritualism. For me, the eucharist is a symbol of unity, and in participating I am united with all those in who shared the bread and wine in the past, and those who share it now, and those who will share it in the future. As a historian of religion and as a liturgist, I am well aware of the fact that it is supposed to be a dinner, and personally I try to re-introduce those elements to the sacrament. Regarding frequency, there was a time when it was required that all Christian partake of communion once a year. As a priest in the Episcopal Church, it is the center of our worship so I take it at least three times a week, but I don't think that is important, what is important is why one takes it. I have nothing against ritual; I see it as theatre. Ritual for ritual's sake is meaningless, but if one understands the symbolism involved, I think that ritual presents certain theological truths (such as the unity of the Body of Christ) in a manner which can touch one deeply. Since I am a priest I obviously am able to accept certain aspects of the institution which are more difficult for you. You asked for my comments regarding your practices and I gave them.

Subject: Re: Clarifications From: Neville To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 14:43:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fair enough, Guv. …But I've got to say, another my pet hates is symbolism. I mean, why bother with symbolic acts? (It's 4.00am and there's a flood in your kitchen. So we'll send you a symbolic plumber?) The term 'symbol' is seductive. It sounds so good and proper, until you examine it. Yeah, the theological truth might be touching. So tell me this truth. To hell with symbolism. Who needs it? (There could be an interesting debate on this topic.) IMO ritual is a corrosive disease. It starts as 'symbolic acts' or 'theatre' sanctioned by church authorities; it ends as full-blown superstition. You must be aware of how easily the meaning is lost and the 'symbolic act' becomes an end in itself. It's best not to get on that road at all. I realise your position makes certain demands—from what I hear your work is worthy of the utmost respect. However, these issues—the religious theatricality and so forth—are the things that alienate the people that I know; major reasons why for so many people Christianity is not an option. As someone who has found Christ's teaching and example to be extraordinary and unique this is a frustration. I want people to realise that Christ directly opposed religiosity. Which is why I give ritualism (and various associated isms) both barrels at every opportunity. To my mind they're cancers. Neville

Subject: Re: Uh-oh, the jig is up! From: Carlos - To Neville To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 18:07:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: While we disagree about M & K we seem to agree about much of Christ's message as reported in the Bible, and about organized religions.

Subject: Re: Uh-oh, the jig is up! From: Neville To: Carlos - To Neville Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 02:10:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, Carlos, what do you think Christ's message was? (In passing: I see nothing wrong with being 'organised'. That is not the issue.) Neville

Subject: Re: Uh-oh, the jig is up! From: Dep To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 13:34:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know, Dep is right; in fact, in the third year of seminary we are all required to take a class titled: Keeping the Truth from the Masses. That is ridiculous! It's not deliberate like that. It's more a case of the blind leading the blind. Anyway, that was my experience in seminary. It is a very important class and teaches clergymen how to boss people around and prevent them from finding their true selves through applying pressure to their eyes, inserting their thumbs in their ears, breathing until they are snoring under their blankets, and, of course, drinking post-nasal drip and telling themselves that it is nectar. I agree totally! It would be bad for business. That’s why the Pharisees had to do away with Jesus. I’ll tell you, nothing frightens me more than the thought that someone will start meditating and think for themselves, because I remember how individualistic and non-conforming those premies were; they weren’t the kind of people who would repeat the same banal statements over and over just because their guru said them. Got me there! Many premies were conformists but many meditated and got and continue to get great benefit from it. In fact, if I’m in the pulpit and I see someone start to rub their eyes, I scream “STOP THAT!!!!” because I know they just might see the Divine Light and it would be all over for me! I agree. An experience of God beats a concept of God every time. That’s why the churches that are full these days are the more experiential ones, like the Pentecostal churches. IMO the Sabbath should be a day for letting it rip and letting off steam, not for listening to someone drone on and on. The menu is not the meal. It is possible that not everyone accepts Dep definition of 'experience.' Some people, even some folks here at this site, don't exactly think that the so-called Knowledge is much of a 'spiritual experience.' And there are people in the world who experience what they call God through orthodox or organized religion. Not everyone got Knowledge. And IMO, the people who experience what they call God through orthodox or organized religion are few and far between. IMO they are mostly caught up in the conceptual level, though many are good and well-intentioned people. Now, if only I could convince myself that activating my optic nerve was a profound spiritual experience, I could finally understand the Bible in the same manner as Deputy Dog. Those of you who remember the cartoon Deputy Dawg may recall that the primary character was dumb as a post and a bit of a hot head. Dogs are usually loyal and I am loyal to the experience of Spirit. On the other hand the Pharisees were more loyal to man made concepts and rules. Meditation even lets me cool off my hot head. Of course, those premies who led the CAC attack, and of course, their Guru are all living examples of the Ten Commandments. That’s why I’m not so hot on Mr. Rawat these days. Whoops, there I go, bossing people around again!!! That’s one of the perks of your job isn’t it? The only place where humans are the same is in the nothingness of meditation. We will always have different concepts, even different Christian concepts. Witness the so-called Christian violence in Northern Ireland and the Catholic Inquisition where people were burned to death because they wouldn’t obey the thought police. The nothingness of meditation, the spaciousness of the Spirit is where it is at IMO. That is where G-d is. I see meditation as the ultimate form of worship. You see it as snoring under a blanket and drinking post-nasal drip. You are entitled to your opinions. Would you allow me to have mine? I don't think so.

Subject: Re: Uh-oh, the jig is up! From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 08:23:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, I would love to know where and when you went to seminary. I would love to know if it was one of those RC high school seminaries or if you were working on postgraduate work. You never tell us anything about yourself, you simply make your statements, throw in some verses from the KJV, and then hide. It would be so much easier to take you seriously if I knew anything about you. You can read my journey under the name Michael Dresbach. Why don?t you tell me something about yourself, where you live, what you do, etc.? I find it interesting to read that you think that ?Not everyone got Knowledge.? Since you appear to associate the so-called Knowledge with the Holy Spirit, I am curious as to why you think that the spirit by-passed so many of us? Was it one of those incidents of us not being sincere enough? Did we not have enough faith? These are the arguments I have heard offered by Faith Healers and Televangelists (all proponents of experiential religion) when miracles don?t happen. I didn?t experience the so-called Knowledge as a gift of the Spirit, so I must not have been sincere enough, or perhaps there was un-confessed sin of which I was unaware; there must be *some* reason. I did spend several years practicing, and I was open to the experience, but it just wasn?t there. Dep, I was raised in one of those ?experiential? Pentecostal churches. It was spiritually and intellectually stifling. They were just as controlling as the Divine Light Mission. In fact, when I was a Premie, I always associated the accusation ?You?re in your mind? with the Evangelical Christian phrase ?You?re back-sliding.? The experiential churches have many of the hallmarks of cults, and some of them actually are cults. They have charismatic leaders who demand total loyalty, and questioning is heavily discouraged. I encourage questioning in my church, I encourage study wherever it may lead. I really don?t tell people what to do. My sermons don?t drone on and on, either. I encourage people to discover what ever it is God is calling them to do, and I encourage them to help others and to work to bring about the Reign of God. My problem with you, Dep, is that you bought what passed for theology in DLM hook, line, and sinker, and you will twist texts in order to prove it, much in the manner of charlatans like Benny Hinn. I can not stand by while you take the texts I respect and distort them, it?s not right. I don?t doubt your sincerity, but no matter how much you may want to believe that ?thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me? is a reference to the kundalini, it just isn?t there. You are forcing interpretations on to the text. The Bible is not a book containing hidden references to meditation. There are plenty of Eastern scriptures which do contain such references; perhaps you should spend you time studying them and quoting them. It might be a better use of your time. Yes, you can have your opinions and beliefs, but anytime you take the texts and distort them, I will challenge you.

Subject: What about the shamans ? From: NikW To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 15:21:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So Dep what's the thing about shamanism ? are you saying Guru = Shaman ? or is it that in your distaste for Prem Rawat you now see meditation as conferring the quality of Shamandom onto the meditator ? It was one thing for us as premies to adopt a stripped down form of Hinduism - after all it was offered by a Hindu, acting within a Hindu tradition but to start claiming shamanism as your/our own, is philosophical and cultural theft. The Shaman is no simple creation of spiritual insight, it is a way that required(s?) not only a prolonged and often harsh immersion within a particular environment, it also required a close involvement with a village or tribal community whose respect was necessary to confer power to the Shaman. There has never been within any of the DLM, EV or whatever incarnation of PW's promotional vehicle, any evidence of a moral commitment to either the natural world or to any sense of external community. The easy revisioning of K into 'self k' shows just how individual centred the PW philosophy always was; Dep if you now want to claim that K leads to a deep connection with the natural world and with human communities perhaps you should point to the evidence, after all there's been 30 years for this to happen.

Subject: Re: What about the shamans ? From: Dep To: NikW Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 19:58:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NikW, The only reason I mentioned shamanism is that shamans, like meditators, value and trust their own experience. That is where it's at for them. They don't go by the book. Shamans go into a trance using dance, drugs, whatever, and interpret their personal experience. The scholar learns more each day while the mystic unlearns more each day. People who go by the book usually mistrust personal experience. Matthew 13:18-23 18: Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19: When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20: But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21: Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22: He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23: But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Matthew 23:13 13: But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Subject: Re: What about the shamans ? From: NikW To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 06:17:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep Yeah, Sure Mat. 23.13 I', quite happy with that, but I think you misunderstand shamanism. Unlike the lone meditator, the Shaman has numerous exterior references, not only the myriad stimuli of the natural world - but each and every member of the community to whom the Shaman has responsibility to and care of. The Shaman gains power, respect, maybe even spiritual growth - on the basis of serving people and their spirits - who does the meditator serve ? What are the meditators external references ? Who does the meditator set up as his/her examiners of his/her spiritual growth ? Unlike the Shaman, the meditator developes(?) within a closed Universe, a reality that can not be challenged from the outside. In a society lacking cohesion, commonality or community, its not surprising meditation is a favoured way of spirituality, but its dishonest to claim it to be equal or equivalent to a wholly different tradition. Prem Rowat promoted K on the basis that it was equivalent to Christianity, Buddhism etc. etc., this was a neat package for us of the New Age generation - but it was not honest. Something may be called Cola, this does not mean all Cola's are the same (cue Atheistic interpretation -'they're all expensive sugary crap that rots yer teeth') Sorry Dep I'm sure you're a sound person but if you are going to defend the K techiques, or other meditation I think you need to go back to basics, and kick the old DLM eclectic crap into touch. NikW

Subject: 'Organized' religion has never taken ... From: Stonor To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 19:40:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: such an extreme stance wrt meditation to my knowledge, in fact, I have spent a number of evenings doing 'Christian Meditation'. They have nothing 'against' it, they just don't promote it to the 'masses', and to some extent, they're right ... they'd lose their 'audience', because most aren't interested in the 'spirit' these days, let alone meditation. You're sounding paranoid and reactionary. Ever read 'The Cloud of Unknowing', or experienced it? Or how about Thomas Merton's work? No meditation in mainstream religion? Surely you jest. I had a friend over today who practices Vipassana (but cheats and moves;), and meditates on Kwan Yin.

Subject: What the hell are you talking about, Dep?... From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 19:01:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, Enlighten me please. I don't understand you at all. And btw, sorry for my crude post to you but you are a very frustrating person about whom I know NOTHING. But I shouldn't have said those things they were not nice. I have a potty mouth and I'm working on it. I have nothing except your posts which don't make much sense to me and I know nothing about your life. Why don't you talk about yourself instead of 'the self?' Be well, Dep, Cynthia

Subject: What a great answer you got from Dog, Cynthia From: Tonette To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 07:13:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why do you bother? Actually, I think Dog is probably gay and doesn't know it or is incrediably afraid of women. Definately afraid of those that ask him to rationally explain his statements of 'universal truth.' Take, for instance, my wasted effort at communication with him in the not too distant past. Deputy Dog, who has yet to use his first name, because he is a coward, made some statement, in capitals no less, 'Energy = Love.' I asked him a very simple, direct question about his belief and you know what I got? A scathing, insulting, ignorant and juvenile response. It didn't surprise me really. Deputy is the perpetual adolescent. The years in the cult have taken their toll. Arrested developement. So come to him with the understanding you are dealing with a child, a spoiled one at that. Console him, manipulate him, and never ever take away his little game. It's just a game to him. And do not waste too much time with him. You're not playing by his rules after all. How dare you ask for any depth! Just my two cents. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: Re: What a great answer you got from Dog, Cynthia From: Cynthia To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 19:36:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Tonette, I know I owe you an email :o. How are you? Yeah, I've pretty much given up on Dep. He doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. He's got a black and white thinking process and can't hear what others say to him. His mind is closed. I'll email you soon Love, Cynthia

Subject: I think you summed it up, Tonette [nt] From: Neville To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 09:21:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: To ex-EV members From: Brother Brahman-Atmananda To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 17:00:33 (PDT) Email Address: drdaryl@yahoo.com Message: Please tell us why do you think EV is a cult and why you think Maharaji abused his guru authority http://pub27.ezboard.com/benlightenmentcenteredkriyayogamessageboard this is a new message board Message Board pub27.ezboard.com/benlightenmentcenteredkriyayogamessageboard tourguide-california.com/pictures/Enlightenment.jpg

Subject: I clicked on your link and ... From: cq To: Brother Brahman-Atmananda Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 09:31:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I clicked on your link and ... ... the first thing I was met with was: QUOTE Make a Contribution :: Direct Payment -or- Accept Offer | View Contributors | FAQ We currently have $0.00 in our chest. Beloved Devotee, this message board is for you. Its ad free trial will expire in a few days, meaning there will be annoying ads that will just pop-up once you go from one forum to the other and from one topic to the other. Help us maintain this board ad free and also assist our Brahman-Atman Yoga® Ministry by donating some money in our Community Chest. Thank you! ENDQUOTE Er ... thanks, but I think I've been conned once or twice before ...

Subject: Re: To ex-EV members From: Ex-EV member To: Brother Brahman-Atmananda Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 05:13:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To answer your question read http://www.ex-premie.org/ If you don't get your answer, then please tell us how he did not abuse his position and I will go back.

Subject: Piss off ®.... [nt] From: PatD To: Brother Brahman-Atmananda Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 17:38:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yeah? PatD? How Come... From: Cynthia To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 18:57:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What do you think about this guy? I don't want to waste my time;) Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Yeah? PatD? How Come... From: PatD To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 12:32:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know....he says he's a satguru,and putting the ® symbol after all that brahmanand bollix got up my nose.

Subject: Oops! From: Cynthia To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 19:57:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To tell you the truth, I didn't read the page much...and definitely didn't see the symbol. Thanks!

Subject: Re: To ex-EV members From: Cynthia To: Brother Brahman-Atmananda Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 17:10:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Brother, That's a pretty photo. Why do I think that Maharaji and his organization is a cult? That's quite a big question. Have you read ex-premie.org (EPO)? The link is at the top of this page. What is your interest in requesting that we post at your website? Are you familiar with what a personality cult is? If you are not familiar with what a personality cult is then I recommend that you also click on links on EPO, go to reFocus.com or org (it's on EPO) and read that cult awareness site. I would be willing to post on your message board to explain my personal reasons regarding Maharji's cult, but first I need to have a feeling of trust and it would also be helpful if you could specify which message board on your site is the most appropriate on which to post. Or, when I have time tomorrow I will be happy to respond here (as I suspect other ex-premies might) but because I have guests this weekend I don't have the time. Be well, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA

Subject: Ron Geaves Lecutures on Maharaji From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 12:14:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In addition to appearing in a false historical account of Maharaji in the 'Passages' video put out by his "new religion" cult, Dr. Ron Geaves seems to have developed somewhat of a carrier of going around the world speaking on the Maharaji cult and how it has "adapted" and "evolved." Whether he discloses that he, himself, is a member of the cult when he does this, I don't know. For example, a couple of weeks ago in Salt Lake City, Utah, Dr. Geaves apparently appeared on a panel discussing the following subject: From Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital: An Exploration of Change and Adaptation Ron Geaves (Chester College, UK) Actually, Dr. Geaves was just part of a 'panel' in Morman-town. One of the other members of the very same panel with Ron discussed the following: Family, Religious Authority, and Change in the Hare Krishna Movement E. Burke Rochford, Jr., (Middlebury College) Hmmmm. You might have reconsidered that, Ron. Somebody might think Maharaji was leading a cult like the Hare Krishnas. Ron, you might be endangering your front-row seat if you continue with this. Dr. Ron is appearing on another panel at a conference on 'new religions' in Denmark in September on the following subject: Ron Geaves: Globalization, Tradition, Charisma, and Innovation: the Dynamic Tension between Iconoclasm and Institutionalization in the Teachings of Maharaji Hmmmm, again. A 'new religion?' Maybe this is a talk in which Dr. Ron continues on about how Maharaji got rid of all the 'hindu trappings' like the darshan feet-kissing ceremony. Ooops, he still does that, doesn't he? One wonders how Dr. Geaves will describe what Maharaji's "teachings" actually are, and what point in time (before or after massive revisionism) he will chose to pick them. Would love to hear both of these discussions. I wonder if Dr. Ron will give me copies of his talks. Also, according to Dr. Ron's website, he has the following publications that would make very interesting reading: Geaves, R.A (June 20-23rd 2002) 'From Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital: an Exploration of change and adaptation, Centre for the Studies on New Religions, The 2002 International Conference Minority Religions, Social Change, and freedom of Conscience, University of Utah: Salt Lake City Geaves, R.A. (April 2002) 'From Totapuri to Maharaji: Reflections on a Lineage (parampara)', Cambridge Does anyone have any idea how to get copies of any of this? Wouldn't it be fascinating to see how Dr. Ron describes the history of Maharaji and his organizations and how he deals with the "lineage" issue? I think it would be.

Subject: This line's a killer From: Sir Dave To: Joe Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 11:15:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ron Geaves: Globalization, Tradition, Charisma, and Innovation: the Dynamic Tension between Iconoclasm and Institutionalization in the Teachings of Maharaji What the hell does it mean? I thought ''dynamic tension'' was what Charles Atlas taught to turn seven stone weaklings into muscle men. There is none of the above in Maharaji's teachings. It's clearly just an excuse for propogation. But Ron, don't forget to tell them about the time you were ill in India and Maharaji told you to ''leave your sickness in your blankets'' and come and eat a curry. That'll bring the house down.

Subject: Re: This line's a killer From: Neville To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 17:28:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Dynamic tension' was also a term used by the fictional religious leader Bokonnon in Vonnegut's 'Cat's Cradle', the central theme of this book being that a religion that consisted entirely of lies could still be useful. However, this may be largely a coincidence... Neville

Subject: Re: Ron Geaves Lecutures on Maharaji From: Cynthia To: Joe Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 19:09:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Joe, This was discussed here recently and the only thing I can think of to get transcripts would be to contact his--oh my god, I just looked up and saw the Middlebury College guy, E. Burke Rockford, Jr. It's summer, but I'll try to contact him Joe. Middlebury College is over a mountain pass, 45 miles away. I'll call him up and don't worry, I am a very savy phone person and present a professional demeanor:D I think I just might hook you two up. The drive there is a breeze in the summer. Hmmmm... I email you about it. Love, Cynthia (nice to see you here, Joe)

Subject: 1down,1to go...(an asp.bites the dust) From: La-ex To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 09:28:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: True story from about 6 months ago. I was shopping in a health food store and ran into the fiance of an old premie buddy of mine. The guy is a premie from the old days...he 'endorses' M heartily, and will tell anyone he feels comfortble with, about M, and encourage them to receive the big K...... This is curious to me, because I know that he never attends programs or videos, doesn't meditate on any regular basis at all,doesn't do any service or give any money, and goes to a large program with M about every 4 or 5 years..... so basically, this guy does not practice in any regular way that M says you need to (attend videos, practice one hour a day minimum etc.),yet he encourages others to get into it.... His fiance has been an aspirant for about 5 years now, and is sick of getting rejected for the big K, sometimes after travelling to other countries to hopefully receive it.... She was obviously wavering in her commitment to getting K when she saw me. She also thought that I was still a premie, and therefore asked me for some advice or perspective on her situation. The 'deprogramming' took about 2-3minutes, in the produce section... I asked her if she was 'in love' with M, as that seems to be a requirement, and if she was interested in being in this devotional love relationship with him for the rest of her life.... She said NO. I asked her if she liked the people in the organization or the organization itself.... She said NO. I asked her if she wanted to attend videos and programs for the rest of her life. She said NO. I asked her if she was ready to accept M as her spiritual master and never question 'the purity of the master'..... She said NO. I asked her if her boyfriend practices regularly, or seems to have any joy or happiness that other regular people don't seem to have... She said NO.(in fact, she said he was somewhat depressed, but never did anything about it) I asked her if she thought the premies they knew had any special happiness that other people don't seem to have. She said NO.(and in some cases, quite the opposite) I asked her if she thoght the videos gave her anything she couldn't get from other sources... She said NO. (and that, in her words, they were BOOOOOORing...) I then asked her if, in her heart, she really wanted to do this whole thing with M and K.... She said NO. I then told her that my advice was for her to follow her own heart. I gave her the EPO website, which she eagerly wrote down. She thanked me profusely, and said she felt a weight had been taken off of her shoulders. I asked her if she thought the avocados were any good in the produce section where we stood. She said NO. We parted. She felt better. I felt that I had done some service. One down, one to go....

Subject: Re: 1down,1to go...(an asp.bites the dust) From: AV To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 09:36:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Aaah, but you might look back in years to come and wonder: ''what would have happened if I HAD bought the advocado??'' mmmmmmmmmmm.....greeeen

Subject: ** Support Neville's Amaroo Protest! ** From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 03:15:44 (PDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: Neville Ackland will be repeating his protest at the gates of Amaroo during the August event. In addition to the activities already announced, he will be hoping to present a petition to Maharaji. Details of the petition as well as a link to Neville's earlier protest are on www.ex-premie.org. Please take the time to express your support. If you know of anyone with an email address but no web access, then please email them asking them for support. Anyone with an email address but without web access can email me their details. Name, Country, and any message for Neville or Maharaji are all that's required. If you know of anyone without any internet access, please ask them if they want to support this, and email me their details. We have less than three weeks to get as many people as possible to support this, so all efforts are appreciated. John. Petition to support Neville's protest www.ex-premie.org/pages/form_petition.htm

Subject: Not August! (nt) From: It's early September To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 19:55:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I was misinformed:(:) [nt] From: JHB To: It's early September Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 12:02:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: ** Support Neville's Amaroo Protest! ** From: cantwaittomakemysign To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 15:10:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, you to can travel all the way to australia and stand like a wacko in front of the gate holding a sign. Now, instead of traveling to see M for enjoyment, learning, and pleasure, or finding something else to make you happy, you can spend the same amount of money and stand at the gate holding a sign, wallowing in your bitterness and hatred. Put down premies while they laugh at you and shake their heads sadly. Sounds like a lovely vacation...for bitter people with nothing posiitive in their lives.

Subject: Re: ** Support Neville's Amaroo Protest! ** From: Cynthia To: cantwaittomakemysign Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 21:21:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We're not going to Amaroo silly, we're supporting someone who lives there. And it's not bitterness and hatred toward premies. It's an effort to get Maharaji to answer questions. Remember those, Catweasel? It's to raise awareness about Maharaji's duplicity and gee, is that why you're here? To make your comments in defense of Maharaji while we know that YOU'RE in a cult? Don't worry, nobody's going to be hurt. It's a peaceful protest. A freedom to demonstrate. Are your sensibilities being threatened? Good. It's about time.

Subject: Re: ** Support Neville's Amaroo Protest! ** From: Salam To: cantwaittomakemysign Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 18:19:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: at least the camping is free. Plus it makes a nice free holiday.

Subject: Please sign the petition! From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 06:49:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, This is a great idea. I've just submitted mine twice (my mistake)--sorry. For those of you who post anonymously here, it doesn't mean that you can't come forward with your real name on this petition. This is a real opportunity to show the world what Maharaji has done and continues to do as a cult leader. I encourage everyone to sign to show that Neville Ackland is not a 'lone' protestor. Truth to Power! Cynthia, The Revolution Just Might Be Televised! Yeah

Subject: Three ideas for amaroo... From: la-ex To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 15:48:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1)A number of people talked awhile ago about a 'pro M' sounding website link that might direct premies to EPO. If premies hear abut 'ex-premie' anything, they may be inclined to avoid it. One good title was: 'Maharaji: Revealing the Truth' Maybe cards or posters could be made with that sort of title on them. 2)How about an 'Ask Maharaji a Question' sign, in which anyone can write a question to M and have it forwarded to him through Neville? All sorts of interesting things might come from that one. 3)Can anyone videotape this? A digital video tape would be easy to put on the site, and would make great watching, I'm sure. It would be priceless to see premie reactions to a protest. It could later be put into some sort of 'Michael Moore' type of 10 minute documentary for epo or other interested venues.

Subject: Its all relative.... From: AV To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 01:31:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: two Gurus walking on opposite banks of the Ganges; one shouts across; ' guruji..how, I beg you, do I get to the other side?? ' 'swamiji!' he replied, 'but you ARE on the other side!'

Subject: Another exs' website From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 22:39:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Behind the TM facade Quite interesting.

Subject: Does anyone remember this time(1978?) From: La-ex To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:22:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There was a time between the infamous Tucson, Arizona program and the hastily arranged Philadelphia program in 1978. M had heavied people out to the MAX at the Tucson program, telling premies he didn't want their beat up cars, he wanted their lives. He berated everyone, even telling the saintly Gurucharanand that he had wasted 2 hours of his life by watching a movie. M also said (to instructors) that because of the premies failure to propagate knowledge, all of the bad prophecies would now come true, and that he couldn't save the planet now, because of the premies failures (naturally). Premies left depressed, freaked out and distraught after this. Supposedly the program the next month in Philly was to calm things down, due to the number of premie freak outs. The reason I mention this time is because it gave me one of my early 'drips', although I probably regarded it as 'mind' creeping in at the time... What happened was that all of the instructors that were touring told everyone that it was M's 'agya' that an able bodied premie should be in the ashram, period. Extremely heavy satsang came from Alan Imbarrato,Randy Prouty,BrianMcDermott,John Hampton, John Knight, etc. etc. EVERY one of the instructors swore that Maharaji himself told them to tell the premies to move in the ashram. When this caused considerable confusion and pain, Maharaji then told the instructors that they were all confused and had told the premies to move in the ashram, AGAINST his wishes. Maharaji completely reversed himself, did a 180, and blamed the instructors for not getting his message right. One of the instrctors said that M called them all back and blamed them for giving the heavy satsang about the ashram (and thereby causing the cofusion), even though it was HIM that had authorized it.... Does anyone else remember this particulr era, especially in the USA? Just curious, not sure why I'm asking, but I do remember it being a major mind-fuck for me, because I knew an instructor pretty well, and believed her version of the story, which automatically unercut the M version....(and him)

Subject: Re: Does anyone remember this time(1978?) From: DJURO To: La-ex Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 07:07:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sure,I remember this time, and you, of course!!!

Subject: Re: Does anyone remember this time(1978?) From: Mike Finch To: La-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 08:42:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember it well. There was a coordinators conference right after, in a smaller theater, and the main auditorium had a Rolling Stones concert. I wanted to go to the Stones concert, and even this wish freaked me out - prefering the Stones to a privileged and small meeting with the Lord. Of course, I didn't go to the Stones, and the meeting's MC (I think it was Joe Anctil) laid into us about how we were so lucky to be with the Lord, and we should not even look at the Stone's concert audience, with their wild ways and appearance etc. Of course, I did look, and remember wondering whether I was really with the Lord, or whether these cool looking guys n gals where having a better time ? (My jumble sale suit made me look like a scarecrow - the ultimate uncool compared to the Stone's audience - and it was soo hot outside the theater a/c). This was juxtaposed with all the ashram stuff too. It was a small drip for me, although I plugged it up and soldiered on for many years. Thanks for reminding me. -- Mike

Subject: Re: Does anyone remember this time(1978?) From: Peter Howie To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 22:28:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Goes to show how different experiences can be. I had a great time (in premie terms). I was building the backstage stuff - a house bigger than the one I was livning in at home. I 'really connected' during the show - and went away more determined than ever to be dedicated etc etc etc. It wasn't a drip for me it was another weld. I remembered it for many years and projected personal connection into everthing MJ said and did.. I don't remember him dancing at Tuscon at all - must have been a later program. However we were singing the Rich Neal dancing song for a long time and at some point he got up and did the 10 finger, 'I come with full power' wand waving thingy and headed off. The storied that make up this world are remarkable. cheers peter

Subject: Yes, I remember it well From: Joe To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 16:17:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember the era very well. The darkest of the dark in the cult. I recall Tucson, I recall he was 'heavy' but by that point I don't think I was really listening anymore. I just learned to shut off my brain and let his rambling comments waft over me. Nothing he said was ever worth remembering anyway. I do recall 1978 as heavier than 1977, and 1979 even more so. I recall M said that if you made it through 1978 with him, you would always be with him, and that 1978 was going to be crazier than that evil, mindful, hedonistic year, 1976. Yes, I remember the era, but I didn't make the connection you did: M also said (to instructors) that because of the premies failure to propagate knowledge, all of the bad prophecies would now come true, and that he couldn't save the planet now, because of the premies failures (naturally). Who did you hear this from? I know Disculta said she 'did service' after the Tucson program for the Initiator meetings with M, and that the Initiators looked 'shell shocked' from how heavy and abusive M was in thos meetings, so this fits. This is the first time I have heard this? Details, details, please. EVERY one of the instructors swore that Maharaji himself told them to tell the premies to move in the ashram. Was it really that explicit re that ashram? I DO agree that after that program the campaign began to harass and guilt-trip every available premie into the ashrams, but this is the first time I heard that the Maharaji's directive regarding this campaign began at the Tucson program. Randy Prouty certainly told me this, and I think others did as well, but I don't recall him saying it was at Tucson that the directive was given by Maharaji. I don't recall when he said Maharaji had told him this. Premies left depressed, freaked out and distraught after this. Supposedly the program the next month in Philly was to calm things down, due to the number of premie freak outs. Really? The Phildadelphia program for for that purpose? Who told you this? That program, later in 1978, occurred as M was leaving for Europe on a tour. It was the first time he did his 'fat naked dancing' routine in the USA. It was shocking and profoundly revolting at the same time, and it would have been hysterically funny if I had actually allowed my 'mind' to look at it. When this caused considerable confusion and pain, Maharaji then told the instructors that they were all confused and had told the premies to move in the ashram, AGAINST his wishes. Really? This must have been years later, because at least through mid-1980, the ashram pressure was on full bore, and Maharaji was doing ashram meetings, including with ashram applicants, to sweeten the deal. It made the ashram premies and aspirants feel special that they got these special meetings, when the other, lower, householder premies, didn't. This was also the period of extreme fundraising pressure on the ashrams, many darshan lines with pressure to give money, and the raising money for the 'world tour' which really was his big plane. One of the instrctors said that M called them all back and blamed them for giving the heavy satsang about the ashram (and thereby causing the cofusion), even though it was HIM that had authorized it.... Can you say who said this? I think this is SO important for these people to come forward and talk about this. It really would help a lot of people. Why can't they say this publicly?

Subject: please answer this question, la-ex! From: Livia To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 14:29:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi la-ex, a while back you wrote a post where you mentioned that Maharaji had once said that a person can meditate on the Knowledge and still perform 'immoral acts' - or something like that. Can you remember when/where he said this, and what the context was? You said he probably said it to justify whatever it was he was up to at the time... Anyway, more info on this would be appreciated, as it would help to clarify things even more. Thanks Love, Livia

Subject: Screw you guru's wife OK From: Jean-Michel To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:21:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rawat senior (or some other authority I don't remember) wrote somewhere that a good diciple can screw his guru's wife and still be OK. My question is why would a guru's wife want to be involved with a mere mortal?

Subject: Re: Screw your guru's wife OK From: Thorin To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:42:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: JM Might the reference be from epo as follows: Paravrajita Ma Yogashakti, in her commentary, says that, I quote: 'Yoni Mudra is the most important and secret of all practices. Although all the secret practices of yoga are mentioned in the yogic literature, people do not pay heed to them.' How great value is attached to this practice is explained in stanzas 37-38 (these are quite funny): 'Yoni Mudra is the most secret and is unapproachable even to Devas. It is advantageous even if it is practiced only once a day. Samadhi is attained by him who practices and masters it well. Sin does not stain him who practices Yoni Mudra, even if he be a murderer of a Brahmin, destroyer of a baby in a womb, intoxicator or has indulged with his Guru's wife.' Perhaps this is why Rawat never taught Yoni Mudra?! roflol :) Beyond Sin? www.ex-premie.org/papers/medtech.htm#YONI

Subject: Re: Screw your guru's wife OK From: Vicki To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 15:26:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is it? Yoni Mudra www.healthlibrary.com/reading/yoga/yonimud.htm

Subject: One thing Rawat's learned OK From: Jean-Michel To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 03:14:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, thats' the quote I was refering to !! Thanks.

Subject: I meant 'your' guru's wife ! From: Jean-Michel To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:22:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: sorry !!

Subject: Re: please answer this question, la-ex! From: la-ex To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 22:40:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia- I don't remember the exact quote or program where M made the statement about the knowledge/morality issue, but here goes: I know it was in LA sometime in the mid or late 80's.....it was a one day program I believe.... M was having a flirtatious exchange with some new female premie who asked him if she could come up to the residence for tea....M was putting on a sort of charm and told her after a while that 'she was making him nervous, as he was a married man'.....of course, this brought the house down with laughter as M honed his skills on being a part time comedian....personally, I thought it was hilarious, but little did I know that M was having lots of affairs by that time, and that his entire schtick about maintaining fidelity in his marriage was a crock of shit... Somewhere in his rambling monologe he mentioned that the experience of knowledge had nothing to do with morality, and that someone could be doing something quite immoral, and still be experiencing knowledge... He added that that particular nugget of wisdom was sure to 'blow a lot of concepts'.... Looking back on it, I see him as taking about himself more than anything.....

Subject: to La-ex: morality and knowledge From: Livia To: la-ex Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 06:46:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that, la-ex. So according to M, knowledge has nothing to do with morality, and someone could be doing something quite immoral and still be experiencing knowledge. Well that just about says it all in my book. And for that I suppose I'd be seen by premies as being 'stuck in my concepts'. I seem to remember Maharaji saying years ago that if you were experiencing knowledge you couldn't do anything bad (for want of a better word) because you were in a place of truth, consciousness and bliss. But now it appears that 'experiencing knowledge' has no bearing on your behaviour. This would then explain why premies are capable of so much infidelity (causing pain), scamming, wheeler-dealing and all the rest of it. It would also go some way towards explaining why premies are so comfortable with the lies that accompany the revisionism. So what, I wonder is knowledge exactly, in Maharaji's book? If it isn't spiritual, if it doesn't necessarily make you into a better or more moral person, what exactly is its apparent value over and beyond making you feel 'good'? Is it now a sort of Prozac without popping a pill? And if it isn't that, then how? After all, Prozac apparently makes you feel really good, but it aint spiritual and doesn't modify your behaviour. It's something that makes you feel good but doesn't go as far as making you give a toss about anyone else, which seems to be the size of knowledge-lite. While I'm on the subject of appalling quotations, how about the idea of us compiling a list of dubious ones? I was talking to an ex on the phone just now who told me Maharaji's philosophy on neighbours, and believe me, it aint nice. And I'm sure it raised some guffaws of laughter, as his 'not nice' quotes usually do. Ho-hum. Love, Livia

Subject: Morality & K: killing cats... From: Crispy To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 10:31:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia and everyone, I don't know exactly where to plug this in, so I hope it's okay here. This thread spurred my burning recollection of another example Mj gave that I just can't help but add to the pot here. It was at a progam, late 80's/early 90's, can't remember exactly when/where, when Maharaji was describing how it's not so important what we do with our lives but our priority should always be to be in that experience. We can be in the worst place on earth, but it would be okay if we were conscious and practising Knowledge. The example he pulled up was a conversation he had with a premie who was sent to an island in the South Pacific with the specific job of curbing the rampant cat population there by killing off all the cats. Maharaji said, 'Really, you kill cats?! Well, as long as you're experiencing Knowledge, then you're in the right place.....'

Subject: Re: Morality & K: killing cats... From: Livia To: Crispy Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 11:55:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Crispy, Hmmm that's interesting - killing cats, huh? I think Maharaji has definitely been sidestepping any issues of ethics/morality/conscience for many years now. I think it's been a deliberate move away from all that, possibly seen by himself and definitely interpreted by premies as being the destruction of unnecessary concepts. I recall a time when Maharaji said there were some jobs premies shouldn't be doing, such as working in a slaughter house. I think he also once said arms manufacture wasn't a great thing to be involved with either. But now that's all by the by, and anything, anything goes as long as you're experiencing Knowledge. You'd think he might hint that if you were truly experiencing Knowledge, you might not actually want to do anything that directly caused harm to either humans or living creatures in general, but this doesn't seem to come into it these days. Out of interest, does anyone know the real reason for the shift? To be honest, I find it slightly chilling and from recent conversations with a couple of premies I've seen that all this has filtered through to them in a not particularly pleasant way. In other words, some premies, especially of the particularly devout variety, seem more cynical than I've ever known them to be, with a disturbingly uncaring attitude to other people's fate. This seems to come directly from what they're picking up from M; it's weird, all of it, and amounts to something very akin to 'I'm alright Jack'. Lovely! Love, Livia

Subject: Re: to La-ex: morality and knowledge From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 09:30:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wasn't there the one about how if you were in holy name, you could drive through traffic at 100 miles an hour without hitting anything? circa 73/74 vintage I believe. And Central hall about 'this Knowledge is sooo perfect that wherever it hits it makes that perfect also'.... well I guess that's OK then.

Subject: A few more, Livia.. From: La-ex To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 08:14:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember M once explaining why you couldn't treat everyone as your self, according to christian values (basic 'golden rule' stuff), and his example was that if he did try to treat his neighbors like he would treat himself, he would have to buy all of them rolls royces as well, and he wasn't about to! (actually, WE would have been paying for all of those rolls for the neighbors, with him getting the credit..) This is a clean version of the old Rodney Dangerfield story in which Rodney said he couldn't treat his neighbor like himself, because that would mean he would have to jerk off his neighbor as well, which he didn't relish doing..... An interesting thing a premie told me about a year ago shed some light on this knowledge/morality debate... He said that M had said recently that he didn't teach people how to be spiritual, but 'how to get in touch with themselves', and this 'baggage free' version of knowledge was good because all of those 'morality concepts' that were gone, unlike other paths....

Subject: This explains his mentality beautifully, La-ex... From: Cynthia To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 10:53:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember M once explaining why you couldn't treat everyone as your self, according to christian values (basic 'golden rule' stuff), and his example was that if he did try to treat his neighbors like he would treat himself, he would have to buy all of them rolls royces as well, and he wasn't about to! (actually, WE would have been paying for all of those rolls for the neighbors, with him getting the credit..) What a mentality--I never heard that one. Was he serious or was it meant as a joke? The Golden Rule Maharaji style. Man, he is so shallow when it's low tide his head's still under water and that's where the water meets the sand. Phew!

Subject: more odd quotes From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 11:00:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what was that in his satsang where he said something along the lines of?: 'you don't just wake up one day, buy yourself a Rolex and say 'I'm a Master' (((((!!!!!!!))))))

Subject: Re: more odd quotes From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 14:17:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, you wake up one day, decide you're a Master, then spend a while convincing people you're the master they've been waiting for, then tell them you need lots of money to spread the thing you're teaching, then siphon off large portions of the money to buy yourself more Rolex's than you could have ever dreamt of. No, it doesn't happen overnight, but with perseverance you get there in the end. Ever hear of the man who set up a totally phony cult, just to see how many followers he could amass? He found loads! Anyone with a bit of on-stage charisma could do it. Livia

Subject: Re: more odd quotes From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 15:07:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: mmmmmmmmmm... A

Subject: Re: Does anyone remember this time(1978?) From: Vicki To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 13:13:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was at this program. I can't remember these particulars. I do remember Daya being a small baby, and Marolyn holding her on stage when all the music was going. He didn't dance and so she later asked him why. 'Because you didn't ask me' was the reply. She recounted this in her satsang on stage the next night. So she asked and he danced that night. I just remember going hoping something magical and earth shattering would happen to me in darshan but it didn't. I remember looking around thinking everyone but me must be having some great experience at the program.

Subject: Re: Does anyone remember this time(1978?) From: Carlos - To la-ex To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 12:28:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At that point in my life I hung out with instructers regularly. Yet I never heard about the caos you are talking about. And I was at Tuscon, driving vips who needed transport aroung, including instructers. I was at every discourse M gave there. And I didn't hear any of the heavy, negative stuff you ascribe to him. Nor do I understand why you call it an infamous event. Hell, it was a nice program, but it wasn't speccial in either a positive OR negative way, IMO. Certainly there wasn't any talk different in kind to the kind from what happens after ANY event in the 3 communities I was in for 2 or 3 days, or in my home community, during the 6 months afterwards.

Subject: To Carlos (OT) From: Cynthia To: Carlos - To la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 14:42:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Carlos, You know, I appreciate your opinion that I am welcome to post on LG, but frankly, I'm not wanted there. I know you won't comment on what you think about the particular individual(s) I posted to, but having a limitation on the subject matter is too close to censorship, IMO. I have no intention of posting there, and I hadn't read that board in a couple of weeks...it's pretty boring to me. I find that it's very strange that those who believe in Maharaji and consider themselves his students are still looking for other ways to satisfy themselves. I don't understand that. Also strange to me is when certain posters there link posts to known cults, such as Enkankar, EST, etc. I'm not ranting on you here, and thank you for your support, but I think you misunderstand me. I have a wonderful husband, four wonderful sisters, a great Mom, a cat, a house filled with plants, which is one of my hobbies, an aquarium, and I live on a dead end private road in the Green Mountains of one the most beautiful and pristine places in this country. It's so quiet here all I hear are animals and birds. Just the other day Tom and I were outside and heard what sounded like a baby crying, but really loud (and a bit different). Well, it turns out the black bear who lives near us is a Mom. Bear cubs who cry for their mothers sound eerily like a baby, but very large. I've haven't seen the bear and don't want to knowing now that there are cubs involved, but I've heard it barking to it's cubs. I see beautiful hawks and am waiting for some Ospreys which I know nest in this area, as well as a pack of grey wolves. I hear all kinds of animals every day. And I have no real complaints in life. Sure times get tough, but I'm a survivor and my husband is my best friend and wonderful to me: since 1981! And I do talk about the things I in life that make me happy. For instance, gray squirrels. When we moved up to Vermont from Connecticut in 1988, there were only red squirrels. Over the years the more large, and bold gray squirrels have migrated up here. We love to feed birds and we get a huge variety of georgous ones but these gray squirrels have been incorrigable in raiding our feeders. Tom wanted to shoot them, but I talked him out of it--as did one of our friends (plus, I don't like guns in the house). So we got a 'have-a-heart' trap and he's been relocating the squirrels farther away from any housing and deeper into the woods where they have plenty to eat (they have plenty here, but what's better than fresh birdfeed)?:) One night Tom made the mistake of leaving the trap out (don't want to be catching any skunks!) and I was up late and heard some commotion and shined a flashlight out one of our large windows overlooking the yard toward the forest and there were two racoons, younguns' raiding the baited trap. It was hilarious...the more I shined the flashlight on them, they looked at me as if to say 'thanks for the food.' One shoved it's plump body all the way into the trap but it's hind legs were sticking out of the trap. So it's simple things like that that make me happy. I am not about to be restricted by LG as to what I say, and after reading LG yesterday, it appears that certain folks there are still talking about how terrible us ex-premies are and blaming US for THEIR behavior...so, thanks but no thanks. Besides, there is one particular individual there who ripped me a new one, calling me scum among other things this person knows nothing about. That individual is not a nice person at all...this was yesterday after I made one small sarcastic remark, for which I apologized...sooo...it's best I stay away...and not even read the stuff there, because, as I said, they are still talking about things other than "Life being so great.'' Best, Cynthia

Subject: Re: To Carlos (OT) From: Carlos - To Cynthia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 20:16:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think I misunderstand you. I just happen to feel that if you could ignore Catweasel, Deb and the DR (cause I think you've had problems with all 3 of them, not just the 2 you chose not to name; in this kind of thing I don't feel anonymity is an issue, but if respecting that was why you chose not to name them, why, good for you! Respectful behaviour is always a plus, IMO.) I do regret the problems you've had with them, and, if I thought I could influence tyhem some way other than by example I'd try to do so. No, I think you'd help raise the tone of the joint thru the on topic posts I believe you could write if you cared to. And I don't think having a focus, a particular topic the BB has chosen to have is anywhere near censorship. It's just the focus CD, LG's owner, thinks is worth the time and work that being a BB operater involves. Perhaps I can make my view clear this way. You'd agree with me that JHB's putting only anti-M stuff on EPO is OK, wouldn't you? He has no obligation to put anti Scientology stuff there, or pro-M stuff. That isn't the purpose of the site. His putting stuff there with a pretty narrow (1 topic, and only from 1 slant)focus, is TOTALLY OK because that is the purpose of that site. Same thing with LG; CD feels that perspective on life is worth sharing and promoting, and that is why the BB is still there. I agree with you that some of the links seem pretty stange things for premies to put there. But few premies who post there seem to have the single pointed focus I do.

Subject: Re: To Carlos (OT) From: Cynthia To: Carlos - To Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 22:22:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just read another of Deborah's posts in response to my last one on LG in which I apologized for disrupting your LG forum. It's quite nasty and completely off the wall as far as understanding what I say. I replied point by point and was ready to push the post button and stopped myself. I said, no, I'm not getting sucked into her inability to be civil and her convoluted black and white thinking. And I certainly don't want to elicit another diatribe toward me--no way. I take responsibilty for setting her off by posting one sarcastic phrase twice: Yup, you're an Angel, Deborah. I know she hates me to her core and I provoked her. She's a very confused person IMO. I don't hate her. I pity her. You know, Carlos, I find it quite humourous that you would say that I've had problems with Deborah, Roupel and Catweasel. Catweasel has been an anonymous troll here for years. Roupell revealed his real name, but not before he came here for quite some time posting under fake names and causing a lot of disruption. Just last week he lost his temper so he hasn't stopped coming here to abuse and reveal his true nature, which is quite nasty--he has his justifications just as the others do. You seem to imply that it's just me having 'problems with these people.'' That a joke, Carlos. They started coming here long before LG ever existed and LG was set up by an Ex-Premie! Don't you see that? Btw, I mention their names now because you guessed correctly who I was speaking about. I didn't omit their names out of respect because I certainly do not have any respect for those individuals, nor feel the least bit inclined to protect them. And protect them from what? They're here all the time, except Deborah who may be reading, but is blocked. Why would I ever want to protect people who constantly abuse me every time I post over there? Quite the contrary, Carlos, I wanted to protect those exes here from any of them who might come here in retaliation for what I posted over there so you kind of blew it for me.:( I didn't want the exes here to be subjected to their sick rendition of fun and games. Frankly I have never seen such meaness since I left bio-Dad. And that's who Ms. Deborah reminds me of, sad but true. Maybe that's why she tempts me when I read her very confused posts; perhaps I just can't resist becoming angry or sarcastic. I'll have to consult my friend, Doktor Freud about this. Plus, I wanted to respond to your post to me on LG, but not there. Hence, the purpose of this OT conversation here. I also don't find any sense of purpose at LG other than to be a chatroom for premies or pwks, whatever you folks are called now. The purpose of EPO is to reveal the facts about Maharaji's life and what he's done with his devotees. The purpose of this forum is to talk about our experiences being former devotees of Maharaji. I and others have posted many things about cults right here. On EPO there are links to cult awareness sites, but EPO's purpose is not to discuss cults in general. One is quite enough to handle and we have first hand experience. So that's about it. I'm very glad I didn't post again on LG. I don't have time in my life for it. Oh, one more thing, Carlos. Why don't you tell Deborah, Catweasal, and Roupel about what you really think about how they treat people? Why not? Are you afraid of them? Cynthia

Subject: Re: To Carlos (OT) From: Carlos - To Cynthia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 04:44:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1st, sorry I 'blew it' for you. That possibility just didn't occur to me. 2nd, I know they have tangled with others. 3rd, I never thought you were protecting their anonymity out of respect for THEM. I thought respect for the principal of anonymity was possible. 4th, I know LG was started by Sir D, with a different name and approach - but he passed it on to Chris. And it is now as it is now, not as Sir D envisioned it. Finally, perhaps the biggest thing for me to respond to. I behave the way I do because of where I am right now. In the 1st 6 years I was with my 2nd wife, a lot of the lessons about life I learned had to do with not stirring up shit to no purpose. Her son was ADD complicated by what is called 'oppositional and defiant disorder (ODD). He saw I gave his mom enogh backing that she could (and did) start standing up to him. He also thought I was stealing her love for him away from him, which was nonsense but a very real fear of his. He acted out in terrible ways. Destroyed a fax machine of mine. Beat up a dented fender of one of my cars with his aluminum baseball bat when his being dramatic by threatening me with it didn't work. Destroyed closths of mine, mostly shirts. All that was in the 1st year. It got better after that, but he was touchy till he died. I learned to tty and pick my battles. The lesson was reinforced for me in the what? 8 months or so I've been posting here, on AG turned Symp or on LG. I let Jim get under my skin way to often. And just like with my late step-son, to oppose his will guarenteed escalation. So I don't confront them cause I waste energy stirring shit up where it isn't likely to do any good only when someone gets under my skin, pushes MY buttons. I working on it, just like you refraining from posting your response to Deb. But I don't think either of us exercises restraint (when we suceed in doing so) because of fear of anyone. I know I don't. And I'd be VERRRRY suprised if you do.

Subject: Thanks Carlos (OT) From: Cynthia To: Carlos - To Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 06:23:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for your honest answer Carlos. I didn't know about your step-son--I've very sorry you had to go through that. So I don't confront them cause I waste energy stirring shit up where it isn't likely to do any good only when someone gets under my skin, pushes MY buttons. I working on it, just like you refraining from posting your response to Deb. But I don't think either of us exercises restraint (when we suceed in doing so) because of fear of anyone. I know I don't. And I'd be VERRRRY suprised if you do. You've hit the nail on the head with this one. There are times when I don't exercise restraint especially with my swearing and sarcasm. Unless it's done in jest, sarcasm is simply another passive-aggressive exercise in futility. And without tone of voice, swearing (especially by me) could very easily taken the wrong way. My own husband tells me I have a potty mouth too much sometimes:) He tells me it's ''very unbecoming.'' I should listen to Tom more, he's a wisened 50 year old, never been a premie. As for people getting under my skin, well, you're correct on that one too--with regard to Deborah. So I do want to try to exercise restraint and be less aggressive and definitely less negatively sarcastic. After all, it started over one, five word sentence! Not worth it. Sooo...I want to bring this particular discussion to an end now. Have a great weekend, Carlos. It's a picture perfect day--low 70s, no humidity, and bright--a #12 on the Vermont weather rating scale, which only goes from 1 to 10.... Cynthia

Subject: accepted. Best wishes. [nt] From: Carlos - To Cynthia - End of discussion To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 14:58:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Tucson is a blurr for me... From: Cynthia To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:51:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I only remember being very hot, I remember beautiful sunsets and kissing his feet, but I cannot remember his satsang there--but I was recovering from a horribly failed relationship--I'm not naming the boyfriend anymore. I was not in the ashram yet but at Philly program I ate his performance up whole. Actually, quite the opposite to what Susan said below, his Philly performance brought me deeper into my belief he was Lord Incarnate and I couldn't understand why anyone who was single would NOT join the ashram. So I did. If I remember correctly, Maharaji stated quite clearly on the last night of his performance in Philadelphia that He was the Lord first person singular. I can't seem to find it on a tape, I might have written the words down in my gopi journal, but his satsang on the last night blew me right into gopi-ism. I'll try to find the quote. I might be mistaken about it being at that particular program in Philadelphia when he stated he was GOD but for some reason I remember it being there. Just a few weeks before that, we had a regional retreat at Quinnipiac College in Hamden, Connecticut. Hartford, New Haven, NY, NJ, Providence, RI premies attended along with several initiators. There was a phone feed I believe from Patterson, or maybe M himself to the retreat and elsewhere around the country, announcing the Philadelphia program. By then, I had totally submerged myself in devotion and meditation so I felt completely resolved of that bad relationship and was eager to get into the ashram. After all, it was the advice of Charanand to my 'boyfriend' to surrender completely to Maharaji, end the relationship and forget about life outside the cult.

Subject: the retreat From: janet To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 03:58:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: how odd. i should remember that retreat. i was in new haven, getting more pregnant by the day, from early summer 78 until late august, when i codged planefare from the father of my baby in order to get back to denver before the due date. the father stayed behind in new haven to see the philly program and then rejoined me out in denver. maybe the retreat happened after i flew off. we were on the east coast for the day of the tuscon program, listend to it by phone feed. but the retreat you speak of, I have no recollection of it. and i should, since i was in new haven and hamden and branford and parts surrounding.

Subject: Re: the retreat From: Cynthia To: janet Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 10:01:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Janet, How are you? Yup, that retreat definitely happened. I find that sometimes ex-premies post about things that I don't remember. Then my memory is jogged a bit and the whole thing comes back to me. I don't remember much about the Tucson program other than the fact it was late July and oppressively hot. But I remember the Philly program very well. Odd that.

Subject: Been part of organizers' conf From: Jean-Michel To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:31:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that happened after the Tucson program (I attended). I'm having a hard time remembering details. I was surprised being invited, and was living in the ashram at that time.

Subject: yep From: Susan To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:27:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was one of the 'freak outs'. Actually, in Philly was my fnal freak out, when he came out in the Mala. I just looked around and saw a cult instead of brothers and sisters and a very dumb weird scary cult leader doing an embarassing dance. But all you say is true. I heard all about that and I was in the Ashram at that point, though I think my drips turned to a rainfall the day I joined the Ashram and saw how nuts it all was.

Subject: A conversation with a student From: TXP To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 04:30:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Travelling around Somerset(UK) last month, I met a 'student' of Maharaji's who told me he recived knowledge in the early 90s. He told me that he made 3 promises to prem when recieving knowledge from prem himself directly, to give it a good attempt not to reveal the techniques to anyone to keep in touch He also told me that Maharaji told him not to speak to old premies. When I suggested that it sounded like Maharaji didn't want the new students to know his past, this student told me that he liked revisionism. Also when I asked this student if they would reveal the techniqies to someone, he said he would. Not much devotion there. Seems like Maharaji is keeping all the older premies to keep his coffers cashed up. Keep up the donations oldies.It pays for your ticket to heaven. TXP

Subject: Re: A conversation with a student From: Livia To: TXP Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 14:23:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God that's so weird, Maharaji telling the new premies not to talk to the old premies. I've heard about this before. For a start, it's somewhat insulting to old premies - the implication that they're not worth talking to, ostensibly because they're stuck in their concepts or whatever. (But who planted those concepts there in the first place, huh?) I mean, how else would a gullible and eager new premie read this? If he/she has just received Knowledge they've just been watching loads of videos, listened to loads of spin, and are going to be well primed. The reality, though, is obviously a lot murkier. For the sake of his credibility with the newer premies, Maharaji must wish the past had never happened, hence his telling premies to destroy all the old publications etc. How naive, to think that they would! What I don't understand is how premies don't see the blatant dishonesty and covering up that's going on here. And the irony is that if he had come out and said that he was mistaken in the past, due to his upbringing, culture, conditioning and all the rest of it, but that the Knowledge was still worth practicing as a good, effective ancient meditation, and that he would still be happy to be our teacher - well, who knows what would have happened? Probably nothing like the mass exodus that is occurring today. Honesty, Maharaji, is always the best policy, and this is something that you clearly fail to see. Livia

Subject: Re: A conversation with a student From: Bolly To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 03:47:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi all If he said he was mistaken, but the meditation was OK? Have been thinking about this, along the lnes of meditation being so alien to your average westerner, that it has served to divert us from things we normally engage in, as a means of improving situations. How often when things are a bit difficult have others castigated themselves with the thought 'it's because I don't meditate enough'. How many hours are lost in a premies life to the feeling 'I should be meditating'? He could come round to my place and personally apologise and I still wouldn't have those moments from my life back. I also doubt that frequent meditation is an aspect of any Eastern mystical life, to be practised as part of a calorie controlled lifestyle. More when my arms are not aching, love Bolly

Subject: to Bolly From: AV To: Bolly Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 06:43:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bolly, your post certainly rung true; I think it's STILL such a knee-jerk reflex for me to 'go inside' when the going gets tough: the result of years of this have tended to make me want to back away from actually dealing with situations /obstacles/challenges, because 'it's just this crazy world', as a consequence in mid life, I'm just starting to learn what it means to be strong, to see situations through with a semblance of attention to detail, to be more open with regular people that I would have considered 'too gross'.....it's so ironic that K, which we believed would unite beings in a common thread of love, has in so many instances caused division, separation and social isolation. (I haven't forgotten our date with a tea-bag btw, not a good time at the moment, take care xx):0) AV

Subject: Re: A conversation with a student From: Vicki To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 15:52:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, so don't talk to the old premies from this day forward? Have I got that right? Who but the 'old' premies were devoted enough to pay for the outrageous Vision subscriptions for the aspirants to watch? -Or the rent of the hall, etc? -Or the printing of schedules and invitations? -Or the instructor tours? Or spent their unpaid time in what amounted to part time jobs coordinating all this hoopla either by being community coordinators or the person who cleaned the hall or did the calling, or or or or.....the list goes on. 'Old premies' indeed! Maharaji should shut up and tell the new people that he owes his entire fortune, standard of living, and position of flying Captain to the 'Old premies'. He was nothing when he came to this country financially or statistic wise.

Subject: Re: A conversation with an idiot From: Marshall To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 14:32:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, One time gmj said to his devotees in the early nineties, that they were a, 'Bunch of burnt cookies' and that he intended to 'bake a new batch of cookies.' You would have to be such an idiot to ever listen this asshole. There is no sanity involved with following such an obvious jerk as maharaji. It defies all reason. Low self esteem? Is that it?

Subject: Re: A conversation with an idiot From: Livia To: Marshall Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 16:28:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marshall. Jesus Christ almighty, who in God's name burnt the cookies then? Cookies don't exactly go and burn themselves without some source of heat there somewhere. Mind you, he's still happy to take donations from burnt cookies. Has he ever tried to explain that? Weird, huh? Love, Livia

Subject: Maharaji has no Gratitude... From: Cynthia To: Marshall Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 16:04:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marshall and all, So the fatboy doesn't want new premies talking to old premies, eh? Well what a slap in the face! Was it not the so-called 'old premies' who built his empire for him, working for free, donating huge sums of cash so he could live an oppulent life? Well, that does it! I'm never speaking to him again!:) What an asshole he is...

Subject: See you in 50,000 years From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 00:42:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The KEO Project Leave a 4 page message for your remote grand grand grand ... children!! I'm fascinated by this stuff...

Subject: It begs the question From: Sir Dave To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 15:53:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why 50,000 years? Civilised man has only been around for 10,000 or more years. Certainly not 50k years. I would have thought just 1,000 years would have been enough. I mean, after a few millennia, who's going to understand our (by then) ancient languages?

Subject: CALLING ALL EX-PREMIES From: Cynthia-Repost from F8 Neville Ackland To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 09:20:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Note: Neville posted this on F8 and I thought it would get much more exposure here for ideas and responses: Hi, it’s Neville Ackland back online and preparing for a “one man” protest at I.R.C.C. For ex’s who didn’t read John MacGregor’s report on my sign waving protest at the I.R.C.C. front gate in April, here’s an update… On the last afternoon of the three day event, as nearly 3,000 premies left the site, I held protest signs proclaiming MAHARAJI MASTER OF DECEIT: LIAR, COWARD, FOOL. I DARE YOU TO FACE ME IN OR OUT OF COURT...MAHARAJI I GAVE YOU MY HEART YOU BROKE IT AND DIDN’T CARE. The objective was to embarrass Maharaji and callenge him to confront his critics. Also to increase awareness amongst premies that accusations are being made. The protest was very successful. The police and local government authorities have become more involved and are well informed and I’ve made contact with more locals. Extensive leafleting and graffiti in Peak Crossing and Ipswich (despite being a jailable offence) reminded everyone that all is not well at I.R.C.C. Maharaji is attending an event from 3-7 August 2002. This time I intend to be there “with bells on” every day. Press releases and flyers are almost complete. Documentation is arriving regarding Ipswich council’s complicity in the deception and cover-up that Maharaji has perpetrated at I.R.C.C. THE “HAVE YOUR SAY” COMPETITION Sign making has become a way of life – I’ve completed quite a few. I’m looking for ideas and invite all ex-premies to enter the competition (for the best sign) and post it here as soon as possible. The criteria are: the message should be directed at Maharaji, not premies; and 10 – 15 words to fit on a 1 metre x 1 metre sign. You supply the words and if your entry is judged the winner not only will it be displayed prominently at I.R.C.C. you will also receive a beautifully bound copy of the 75 page press release complete with photos of the demonstration and YOUR SIGN! If there are enough entries there may be a second and third prize. SO, COME ON, GET YOUR MESSAGE IN PRINT. I’ll include a copy of all entries posted here and any expressions of support and include them in the press release and on the information table (with your permission). At ground zero on 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 August my intention is to represent as many ex-premies as possible including, I assume, those who have moved on and won’t find out about the protest in the near future. To protest corporate greed by waving signs and chanting slogans is easy compared to protesting directly in front of old friends and associates who at best no longer wantto have anything to do with you and at worst feel deep resentment towards you. The repercussions for the protester go far beyond the I.R.C.C. front gate confrontation, especially when many ex’s are hurt or upset in ways that make confrontation extremely difficult. Historically, cult leaders’ corruption has been finally exposed by the media and government investigation with information provided by ex-members of those cults. Seldom have ex-members blockaded HQ enmass, attracted the media and forced the villain to admit his sins. It just doesn’t happen like that. By protesting as a lone protester and representing ex-premies both formally and more impact rather than being dismissed as “just one disenchanted sect member”. Although I can’t divulge logistics or details on the scale of the protest, I can assure the ex-premies I represent that it will be peaceful and I will abide by the law. I’m indignant, not angry. So I am confident I can be relied upon to conduct myself responsibly. Once again, thanks to those who have helped boost my self-esteem (an essential ingredient when cooking up a plot like this). And girls…have patience… I’m having more photos developed post haste. Oh, by the way Tantra – was that clothed or unclothed, with the sign or without the sign? Can you be more specific? Happy days! Neville.

Subject: Can anyone explain the... From: la-ex To: Cynthia-Repost from F8 Neville Ackland Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:36:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ipswich Council's part in the IRCC coverup, or misuse of the amaroo property, if there is one? Very curious...

Subject: Neville Ackland knows... From: Cynthia To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:39:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...but I don't. Maybe you can find out what his email address through Gerry?? I get the impression that Neville doesn't want to reveal too much on the internet about this aspect of IRCC. Cynthia

Subject: Re: CALLING ALL EX-PREMIES From: An Aspirant To: Cynthia-Repost from F8 Neville Ackland Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 03:59:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here is the card I would wave, were I able to attend. 'I'm an aspirant. Knowledge is Free. Why am I not allowed in?' Is there something I'm not supposed to know? Like the local videos I used to attend that were for people with what was called 'knowledge' back then. I was only able to attend videos for aspirants and introduction videos. Come on, I mean we all know Maharaji (oops, sorry) Prem Rawat, will sit in a chair and allow the people who have already received the gift of 'self-knowledge' to line up and kiss his ass (oops, sorry) feet. We all know what goes on, it is nothing different than any event except for the foot kissing. So why are aspirants not allowed to come and listen to their 'Perfect Master'? Here's another card: 'What have you got to hide? Come out here and talk to your ex-followers.' Chicken shit, slushee vendor. I am sure security will be stepped up a notch. Best of luck, Cynthia.

Subject: Sorry but... From: LogicDoc To: An Aspirant Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 01:41:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's merely a matter of logistics. There are over 17000 aspirants and many more uncounted in Asia minor. There simply isn't room to have an event open to all pwk and aspirants. The Ampitheatre only holds 5000 at present. All the deluxe tents were booked within a week and now all the pioneer tents have gone so, for aspirants it's a matter of patience. But hey - knowing that won't stop your 'witty' vitriole will it? ;) Doc - waiting with extreme patience for complete 'ex'odus to F8

Subject: This isn't witty but From: Sir Dave To: LogicDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 16:49:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have to comment on what you wrote, Doctor, because it's quite laughable. All that land out there in Amaroo and there's not enough space to squeeze in an extra 12,000 people? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Did you know, that the whole of the world's population could quite comfortably fit onto the Isle of Wight (near Portsmouth, England)? That's a fact.

Subject: yea, ha ha dave From: Doosiedoc To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 23:14:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't think you were that silly.... Read Cat's post again, I couldn't be bothered dealing with such idiocy

Subject: Dead right it isn't witty Sir Goof From: RealDoc To: Doosiedoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 23:55:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Only mad dogs and Englishmen would attempt to camp in South East Queensland with absolutely no facilities to accomodate them.... Like the brave knight I suppose? By the way...who's pretending to be me (above) ?? Please desist, they're confused enough over here already! ;)

Subject: That's nonsense and you know it From: Sir Dave To: RealDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 06:53:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All it needs is a few more portaloos, a few big tents, just like the old ''festivals'' in Florida. What about Woodstock, eh? We are stardust...

Subject: You are so thick From: BadenPowellDoc To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:18:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: on the ground in dear old England. Very crowded. So it may seem an easy solution for a huge place like Oz - to just plonk a whole bunch of people on a big campsite for a festival a la Woodstock. But it ain't! Woodstock was private property for starters. As is Glastonbury. They tried that style of event and then asked the council if they could expand the numbers for the next one. NO. Things at publicly listed conference centres have to be totally legit and up to scratch with all local Government requirements. And man, they can be petty!! Only because it's them that gets sued if something goes wrong in their jurisidiction. Oh, by the way - thanks for the subtle link to the Brit websites the other day - I was err...'distracted' for some time ;)

Subject: Pervert! From: Sir Dave To: BadenPowellDoc Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 03:25:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That link was purely for educational purposes. There was no need for you to go to the homepage and see all those pics. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Subject: Correct, Dave... From: Cynthia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 07:08:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Even though I didn't like the site you linked to over on Symp, you did give a warning about it's content...and I appreciate that.

Subject: I wasn't deadly serious there From: Sir Dave To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 16, 2002 at 03:52:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: aren't all Australians perverts?

Subject: The more you eat the more you.......... From: Cat To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 18:14:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Dave Another 12,000 people are a huge legal responsibility in Oz. The Organizers would have to be able to idicate a viable effluent programme(ie Where would all that doodoo go over 5 days, what water would be available, what food,and what shelter is provided. Covered by statute..Local Goverment Act) If population increase is not a problem why not just let the Chunnel refugees all in and let the old dart start to resemble the Empire it once was - at home!! Infrastructure Dave, Infrastructure!

Subject: Re: Sorry but... From: An Aspirant To: LogicDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 05:57:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: THanx for the logistical analysis. I am glad that there is someone out there that is 'in their mind' and able to statisticly and quantitatively answer my question regarding the fact that aspirants are not welcome. Now for the second half of the question: What is there to hide? Is it the foot kissing thing I have heard so much about? Patiently awaiting your logical answer.

Subject: Not hidden, just personal. From: Davodoc To: An Aspirant Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 08:21:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There's no protocol set. My youngest daughter met M a few months ago in the line. She looked at him and said 'hello'. No more. She said it was just really beautiful to be able to get that close and personal. It's not a hidden secret, just very special and accorded special treatment. It couldn't be more respectful of the privacy or each individual. I know when I start getting close to him I become less interested in what's around and , frankly, the less distractions the better at that time. I think the little meeting we each have with him is managed very sensitively and sensibly by all concerned. I have a lot of respect for the people who help organise all that stuff while the rest of us are larking about the Pavilion like we're at Bultlins Holiday camp. Hope you get to go there some day Asp, it's a pretty cool place for a party. :)

Subject: Keep Spinning your stuff, Doc...:D From: Cynthia To: Davodoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 08:56:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No protocol! I just love your posts now. You are doing good work here. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK, DOC...I'M HAVING A GREAT TIME READING YOUR POSTS!!!:D Please don't go away.... Cynthia

Subject: Re: Sorry but... From: Vicki To: An Aspirant Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 08:00:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, if you buy into this statistical excuse, then that would mean when you do receive knowledge, there still won't be room for you at Amaroo. NO, the reason you aren't let in is simple. You will see and hear and do things that were never told or shown to you in the velvet covered videos you are watching now as an aspirant. Once you have knowledge, that's it. You'll get to go and kiss the feet of this person who claims never to have claimed being the lord. So why would anyone want to kiss someone's feet if they are just an average teacher of self knowledge techniques? Feet kissing has been going on since he arrived on western soil. Watch some very old videos. Ask some 'old premies' if you have the courage. They have them stashed or better yet, ask some old ex'ers. The perfect master's feet are supposed to be lotus, as in above the maya of this world whilst standing in it. They are supposed to be the source of all love. Read the words to arti. Arti is also sung at Amaroo. They don't want you to read the words until you have gone through knowledge session and supposedly understand that Maharaji while having to claim being merely an ordinary human being, is more than the average human being. Good luck. Be prepared to have your life hijacked for the next thirty years.

Subject: Not allowed in? From: Cynthia To: An Aspirant Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 09:59:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, Aspirant, I certainly hope you know that if you still are aspiring to get Knowledge or self-K, you're in the process of entering a cult. Is there something I'm not supposed to know? Oh yes, there's a lot Rawat doesn't want you to know. And that's the process of indoctrination. First you see 'introductory videos,' then you express a 'desire for Self-K' so you're allowed to view aspirant videos. You're not allowed to go to Amaroo because there is a so-called secret about who Rawat's followers think he is, and that's the Lord Incarnate. That's why they kiss his feet and give him their money. Don't worry about me, I'm not going to Australia. I wouldn't pay one tiny penny to see that creep, even if I could afford the trip. I simply placed this post here from F8, so that it would get more exposure for ex-premies to give Neville Ackland some responses... That said, I highly suggest you read Ex-Premie.Org (EPO). The link is at the top of this page. I was a 70s premie and lived in an ashram, then I worked for Maharaji at his secret DECA project, which was launched because he wanted his own airplane. I worked in the Design Dept. so I spoke with and saw Maharaji every day. He's nothing special, believe me, and you can get meditation techniques elsewhere that are much more effective than the ones he claims to own. But, if you do want the Maharaji/Knowledge techniques, they are also on EPO. They're not ''revealed'' there just there. You can learn them by just looking at the page which has pictures and avoid getting involved in a personality worship cult, which is simply what Maharaji runs. The other piece about not being allowed in is that Maharaji likes to create a aura of mystery about himself, thereby making aspirants think there is something extra special about this secret...an aspirant might go further into the cult in order to be allowed in...so they can find out the mystery about ''not being allowed in'' and becoming a full-blown cult member. I advise you to be very cautious in your aspirations with Maharaji. It is a cult and a very bad one at that. Save yourself a lot of grief and go elsewhere for meditation. Self-Knowledge is not the panacea to life which Maharaji says it is. When I was an aspirant in 1975 I attended my first Hans Jayanti Festival in Florida (the celebration of Maharaji's father and dead Perfect Master- November 9th) and back then aspirants were allowed to do the foot kissing thing. It's pretty creepy, don't you think, to find a teacher who wants adoration and his feet kissed, or being bowed down to (pranam in Hindi). And, belive me, it's never free. Best of luck to you, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont USA

Subject: Re: CALLING ALL EX-PREMIES From: Observer To: Cynthia-Repost from F8 Neville Ackland Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 12:06:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 3,000 people had a great ol' time and you waved a sign. Woo woo.

Subject: The Front Row Looms. From: AJW To: Observer Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:12:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 3000, 2999, 2998, 2997, 2996, 2995, 2994, 2993, 2992, 2991, 2990, 2989,... You'll soon be on the front row Observer. Hang on in there. Anth, this must be the silver lining.

Subject: Big deal Observer From: TXP To: Observer Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 04:36:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The very Rev Moon has more than 3000 cheering him as did Adoph Hitler. Face it, your in acult just like Saibaba and tha jKare Krishnas who are now being exposed for the abusers they are. In spite of prem's revisionism the trith will be out. Now go back and bury your heads in the sand. TXP

Subject: 3,000 People.... From: Cynthia To: Observer Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 15:01:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...worshipping a conman and a fraud. I pity your closed eyes and conscience. Kiss his feet or bow before him, sing devotional songs like Arti. Give money to support Maharaji's narcissistic, mega-egotistical, selfish, and insatiable desire for living the oppulent life... And one hero speaking out against this fraud. I call Neville courageous, a hero, speaking truth to power. Now we're going to get in on the action from afar... WOO WOO, what a sorry excuse for a human being is Maharaji

Subject: Not very observant are you? From: JHB To: Observer Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 12:38:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Perhaps you could give us your observations on Maharaji's illegal use of the IRCC land, Maharaji's support of Jagdeo and Fakiranand's crimes, Maharaji's failure as a husband and father, Maharaji's need for alcohol and cannabis, and Maharaji's insatiable desire for symbols of wealth. That would show us how observant you really are, Observer. John the observant.

Subject: Re: Not very observant are you? From: Observer To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 00:16:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Exactly, JHB... He's a crack whore who's busy encouraging molestation and violent assault when he isn't busy being detested by his children and wife, shooting at small animals and chasing an army of invisible blondes. Uh huh. Or perhaps, you've fallen, hook, line and sinker for a huge load of exaggerated, twisted crap in an Internet chat room that requires regular infusions of new (actually, usually heavily recycled) meat to keep boredom away from the door. Ever considered why any of the people who've regularly spent time withe guy in the last 20 years haven't jumped in and supported any of the stuff you're peddling? The bollocks content is enormous. And everything essential and of any importance is conveniently and predictably left out. Snarky, catty, tabloid, harsh, highly selective, inaccurate, time-wasting bollocks. Repeat it as much as you like, you're still discussing an invented character. Speaking of observation, exactly how many areas of his life, that you've so neatly dissembled and assassinated, have you actually witnessed or observed? You, JHB. Any? And you're talking about his family life and kids as if you have the slightest connection with reality? These are your own observations? Thought not. Hope you enjoy your summer, just the same.

Subject: Do you follow the news? From: JHB To: Observer Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 02:25:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Observer, There are many things that I believe that I do not have first hand experience of. Although I am healthily sceptical, I do believe most of what I hear on the news, even when it's reporting events in countries I've never been to. Like the news, the content of www.ex-premie.org is based on first hand reports from reputable witnesses who have risked their own reputations to provide the accounts. As you appear to believe these accounts to be incorrect, perhaps you could give some evidence to back up your beliefs, and to explain why the people who have reported Maharaji's behaviour are mistaken or lying. Anyway, no one has ever reported that Maharaji uses crack, only alcohol (heavily) and cannabis. You accuse me of leaving out anything essential and of any importance. I assume you mean the experience of knowledge and devotion. Well there is no evidence that the experience of knowledge is anything more than the effects of unusual sensory practices on the mind. If you have any such evidence I sincerely would like to hear it. The experience of devotion is a cleverly engineered con trick to separate you from your money and to boost Maharaji's insecure ego. Was there anything else essential and of importance? John.

Subject: More Brit press cuts! From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 10:18:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why a God kept me waiting ..... and more press cuts. Including: 'Nothing tatty' for boy Guru A little earthly problem for the Divine Guru By Wendy Hughes Teenage Guru He believes in the trendiest gear, the fastest cars. He watches 'Man from Uncle' on TV. And six million worship him as the Divine Light. By Andrew Fyall Why a God kept me waiting By the Rev. John Lambert Vicar of Cuffley, Herts. Guru sect to show accounts By David Woodhead Disciples plead 'release cash' By our Staff Correspondent in New Delhi The 'boy god' with a taste for ice cream... and the good things of life Back in Britain today - the guru with some questions to answer about his wealth... and a smuggling riddle

Subject: The Vicar of Cuffley's apposite remarks From: Livia To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 14:58:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm reposting this excerpt here for people who haven't managed to trawl through all those articles. It's really interesting. 'Why a God kept me waiting By the Rev. John Lambert Vicar of Cuffley, Herts. When this poor parson went to meet God he tried to bunk out of the back door. The Rolls-Royce was ready, complete with disciple and a blanket to shroud his head. The Guru Maharaj Ji was not pleased to see the parson and only stopped to talk to me because I barred the way to his gleaming car. He had the sense to see that knocking down a Rev. gent in his own parish would not be good for his image as the Perfect Master. All this took place in his caravan in Tolmers Park Scout Camp at Cuffley, Herts, where nearly 3,000 devotees waited patiently for his wisdom before going to Alexandra Palace to attend his Festival of Love and Wisdom. But he would have run out on them to escape meeting me if he could. All his promises, and he did make them, would have gone by the board because I can only conclude he was afraid. Questions from a journalist and in this case a seriously interested and sympathetic member, were not welcomed. Which was a pity because what he and his movement teaches has something to say to our world and is something the majority of churches are afraid to face. The young people who follow him are gentle, considerate and well behaved. As I write, hundreds are passing my front door, yet there is no litter or unnecessary noise. The scouts and ramblers make far more mess! Their camp is disciplined, clean and moral. Babies are there. I took one couple with a five week-old child to the camp in my car. Americans, Frenchmen, Jews and Arabs mingle in the same tents, bound by a love of the Master and the search for truth. Ex-drug addicts are thick among them as well as the people who have freaked out of the rat race. Many had come through the churches but were disillusioned by what they found. Mary, Arthur, John and Hamish were people I would be glad to count as friends. This article will hurt them because they believe so much in The Man. He is their Messiah, their god, their saviour. I feel a rat trying to say to them, and the countless other young people who may come to think likewise, that in my opinion he is a fraud. Ten minutes talking to a man who has tried to dodge you is not long. But my confrontation left me frightened and depressed. It began loaded with apprehension. The small group of the faithful held their breath and the guru was ill at ease. Gradually his confidence grew as he realised I was not going to verbally maul him and the answers became slicker and more packed. There was little logic and constant evasion. The anomaly of a Rolls-Royce for the Perfect Master did not trouble him. 'It is the gift of love from my disciples and I will not offend them.' The suggestion of giving it away to help the poor who were around him did not register or impress. To be fair, many a bishop and a Pope has made the same mistake and lived the same lie. I asked him about this. He replied: 'It is one's attitude to them that is all important. My car and my clothes are not attached to me by safety pins.' I asked him if he was really 15 - or 19 as some people allege. 'My passport records that I was born in 1957, so I really cannot understand all the fuss.' Was he embarrassed by the presents and the wealth he displayed? 'It is as loving to receive as it is to give.' Five minutes after my interview he appeared to his followers - with all ideas of premature departure presumably forgotten. As he addressed them he said how he was criticised for the Rolls-Royce which, anyway, was falling to pieces. The faithful laughed. Someone who suggested that Hare Krishna was a guru of equal standing was unceremoniously thrown out. So what is the secret of this phenomena? Why has it happened? Two events that lie outside the movement have contributed. One is growing disillusionment with the materialistic world. But oddly enough his followers have got to have a materialistic god which they can see, touch and handle. Probably what is more damning is that the church is failing these young people. Many came to it for love, but found only ethics, dogma and taboos. The compassion of Jesus was seldom present in the so-called houses of God. We who are Christians, whatever our denominations, ought this weekend to go down on our knees in an act of penitence for the way we have betrayed these people and exposed them to such spiritual danger. In the second instance it is possible these days to make 'a silk purse out of a sow's ear.' Good management and publicity, have made pop stars from deformed tonsils. This man is cleverly managed. The secrecy around him is part of his greatest appeal. Though he denies being God, he is aware he is allowing a cult to be built up around him as a deity. Brick by brick he fashions the pedestal that sets him above mortal man. How strong this is can be seen from the fact that because I have actually spoken with the Master some of his disciples - who have never got close to him and will not be allowed to - want to touch me and called me blessed. Much of his teaching is modelled on Christ and only an expert would detect the subtle differences. All heresies, and this is a heresy, have been distortions of the truth. Fortunately, some good can come out of evil and there is charisma ... this magnetic appeal that draws. It is manufactured, the man has not got it in himself. It is where this well end that the real test will lie and for people like Mary, Arthur, John and Hamish it will end in disillusionment and pain.' I know the man is a Christian and he is obviously biased against someting he sees as non-Christian, but at the same time I thought he made some apposite observations. And I find the last paragraph very poignant. Love, Livia

Subject: A poignant passage From: Livia To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 14:40:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'The financial set-up of the Achnacloich ashram was explained by the secretary at that time, Mr. John Dewhurst. 'Eight of us are working,' he said. 'Jobs are hard to come by here, so most of us do timber contracting work. The two housemothers don't have jobs. 'I suppose we send between £150 and £200 a week to headquarters in London. 'They send us back £40 a week for the ten of us to live on.'

Subject: My Two Farourite: From: Gregg To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 21:21:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This one, for it's pure poetic Zippy-ness: Shinding by jet for a fat-faced 'God' And this one, for an illustration of the tres formidable francais saying, 'plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.' (The more things change, the more they stay the same): 'In fact the teaching from the platform was contradictory, vague and often trivial - though this did not seem to concern the followers.' The only difference in Prem Pal's speaking style that I can see is that he used to be more contradictory and trivial; now he is mostly vague.

Subject: Oops. I meant Favourite. (nt) From: Gregg To: Gregg Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 21:22:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: There you are again mate From: Hey Glen To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 14:55:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You were shmoozed right in there with the little fella' were'nt you? Doing his accounting and all. Stop on down the pub and we'll buy you a pint mate.

Subject: Great resource there, J-M. From: cq To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 10:31:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: old die-hard premies might like to think this should all be 'swept under the carpet' as it were. But I bet at least a few of the newer converts will find their eyes opened by this stuff. BTW, a joke: Maharaji's Malibu mansion gates are in need of repair. So three ironmongers, a premie, an ex-premie and a non-premie, arrive at the pearly gates where the Maha's waiting. M greets them nicely but quickly gets to the point. 'As you can see, my gates are in need of repair. I want a quote' The premie ironmonger looks at the gate and replies, 'Hmm, OK, $200 for the material, and because I'm a good premie I'll do it for free' The ex-premie ironmonger says: 'Look, this needs to be done properly. $500 for the work, $200 for the materials, and $100 compensation for how you screwed me by pretending to be god-in-a-bod back in the 70s and 80s. That makes 800 bucks. Can´t be fairer than that' The non-premie carpenter takes M to one side, and says 'I'll do it for $1,000.' M says 'What? 1000 dollars? how do you figure that?' 'Well, 400 for me, 400 for you and we'll let the premie guy do it'

Subject: Pedophilia in the Maharaji Cult From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 09:46:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Has anything happened on the Jagdeo affair? Last I heard, Elan Vital was pretending to be pursuing a lawsuit against Jagdeo in India, but wouldn't even say whether they knew where Jagdeo was, or whether he had been served. Plus, there were reports that Jagdeo was living happily in EV ashrams in India until quite recently. Maharaji's organization appears to have taken no visible effort to contact any other victims, of which there are surely many, or take any responsbility for Jagdeo's molestation of children over a period of years. I think it's important that we not let the cult slide all this under the carpet and hope it goes away. One thing we might do, is to email the 'Prem Rawat Foundation' at feedback@tprf.org and ask about the status of the Jagdeo investigation. You could also forward a copy of your email to news organizations or other interested parties. Be sure to include the www.ex-premie.org address, because that's where one can get the background on the sordid Jagdeo affair.

Subject: Re: Pedophilia in the Maharaji Cult From: AJW To: Joe Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:20:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Joe, I went to the police again recently, to press them on what they've been doing about Jagdeo. But it's not something I want to discuss here. The affair has a way of rearing it's ugly head when you think it's gone away. The fact remains, there was a cover-up, and there's only one person in a position to have authorised that. Nobody has cleaned the mess up yet. The fish head under Rawat's sofa is still stinking. Anth the Supergrass.

Subject: Re: Pedophilia in the Maharaji Cult From: CPG To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 17:06:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If true, the allegations against Jagdeo are reprehensible and deserve to be looked into. However, with only ONE victim coming forward out of the hundreds of thousands in contact with Jagdeo over the years, this sounds very difficult. How does one contact other victims if they don't come forward/. And lets make it clear there were no allegations of complicity by Maharaji in this alleged crime as reported by the one alleged victim.

Subject: More than one victim. From: AJW To: CPG Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:23:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There have been more than one victim who has come forward. I've been in contact with four of them personally, and have heard very disturbing reports of other victims. I've also spoken to an ex-national co-ordinator who told me that Jagdeo's crimes were discussed by small groups of honchos at conferences in the late 80s. And as a result of this, Jagdeo was eventually restricted to touring Asian communities in the Far East. What is your interest in this CPG? Anth Ginn.

Subject: Re: More than one victim. From: CPG To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 15:50:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, I spoke with four guys the other day who have been to Mars. But they won't come forward. Come forward means to publicly make your accusation, without hiding or passing messages through a third party. Anything else just isn't credible. Drawing conclusions on anything less is medieval. In the US one has the right to face their accusser. Would you like to be branded as something despicable based on rumor from unnamed sources/ Because of this approach this issue won't pass the snicker test to any independent thinker.

Subject: Bollocks From: AJW To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 05:50:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CPG, So what are you saying here CPG. Because their names are not published here it didn't happen? Or am I a liar? Or are they lying? Or maybe it did happen after all. Get you head out your arse CPG. The sun is shinning out here, in a world where paedophiles are condemned, not defended. Anth Ginn

Subject: 'independent' thinker From: Dermot To: CPG Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 18:25:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that's hilarious. I take it your thinking is completely 'independent' of your obesciance to Prem Pal, yeah? You're just this 'independent' totally 'un-biased' seeker of the facts .....nothing at all to do with an attempt to ensure your master is free from criticism. Of course not. Only people who criticise Prem Pal are warped aren't they? Not folks like you. Like if your daughter told you she'd been raped by someone ...how could you possibly believe her? ....after all she's just SPEAKING to you....she'd probablty think she'd been to MARS too ....silly girl. You'd need DNA evidence, a host of witnesses and film footage first wouldn't you? Especially in your good ole USA ....THE BASTION OF TRUTH , JUSTICE AND THE AMERICAN WAY.Well actually, only if your precious Prem Pal was remotely conected to the tragedy I suppose....I guess you'd give your daughter a break....sort of like, the benefit of the doubt......if anyone but Prem was at risk of falling off a pedestal. So, mr/mrs/ms 'Independent' thinker you've conceded there's been one victim and you know how devoted Jagdeo was to his M A S T E R ...YES? at least I know how devoted he was ....like a dog actually.....that's how devoted.... (I came across him a few times and even had an argument with him over some matter un-related to his raping escapade(s). So what does your fine 'independent' brain think Prem pal knew about Jagdeo? And how many years ago did he know it ......just this ONE victim that you agree on that is.....ahhhh I see this M A S T E R knew fuck all!!! Right.....all these people were informed including that other lapdog Charanand BUT the M A S T E R knew nothing.It's like a miracle aint it? Sort of defies all reason doesn't it? Kinda like your great US presidents. Nixon ....Reagan....ah how convenient......how/why should the top man know ANYTHING about NAYTHING untoward? Just like Prem never knew that Fakiranand was still on duty in Switzerland doing his Masters 'propagation', so soon after bludgeoning a mans head with a hammer. Now you have a problem here. Your MASTER was interviewed by the press on this occasion (yup there IS film footage of that ) and he's ON RECORD saying 'he'll deal with it!. Now between me and you...what do you reckon a good way of dealing with it would be? Turn the lunatic over to the American authorities OR send the lunatic to propagate in Switzerland, to mingle with Premies and non-Premies alike? Bear in mind that it's a FACT that Fakiranad was sent to Europe and his driver at the time (a very honest guy....whom I know personally) has the whole story and the leaflets advertising him ,dates etc. But it's PREM PAL we're talking of here so I guess you'll get round those unfortunate FACTS somehow. Independent thinker my ass. Fuck off with your bullshit.

Subject: Re: 'independent' thinker From: CPG To: Dermot Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 09:28:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excuse me please for disturbing you, for letting a stream of light and truth enter your dark and dank little burrow. I know you were all comfy in there wallowing in your own shit, so I'll just let you get back to your anger and misery, you sarcastic, sad little wretch. Maybe someone else will will pick up the thread with the guy with the hammer, 30 years ago for gods sake. Get a life, then try enjoying it, its nice.

Subject: Go rot From: Dermot To: CPG Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 12:25:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: away with your amoral, greedy, greaseball, master ...sycophant. My life BEGAN when I saw Rawat clearly....I pity you......almost.

Subject: I was a litle over the top From: Dermot To: Dermot Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 13:45:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: with that 'go rot' post ....nevertheless you still annoy me with your supposed 'critical independence' when it's plain as night is day you're desperate to do a whitewash job. Easier to insult and leave than talk about Fakirand and Rawats role in that tragic crime AND his role in Jagdeos crimes too....it all mounts up and points to someone who puts his IMAGE before what is truly RIGHT.

Subject: Oh but there is evidence of complicity... From: Cynthia To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 21:42:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ONLY ONE VICTIM? How dare you say that! How many must there be? A. was seven, yes 7 years old when Jagdeo raped her and he didn't use his finger if you catch my drift. And even if he ''only'' used his finger, it is still an unimaginable heinous crime against an innocent child. Do YOU have any children? Know any? Just notice a seven year old girl next time you're around children and imagine a grown man raping a seven year old little girl. There is nothing worse that could happen in anyone's life, girl or boy. Where is your sense of decency? Where is your conscience? Educate yourself! There are people who have information that Maharji did indeed have knowledge of these rapes and other sexual abusive acts upon children of his premies. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. He knew it all and you just don't want to believe it because you're so in love with him. Well, I'm bursting your bubble, CPG. He knew everything and CHOSE not to do anything about it. He is and was too engrossed in himself to care. And guess what? He doesn't give a shit about YOU either! Wait until you realize that one. And you lurk here with no name, no evidence to the contrary, and say ONLY ONE VICTIM. Well, whoever you are, one victim is one too many. What's wrong with your mind? Have you been brainwashed? Do you believe Maharaji is above the law. He knew...he knew and he knew...and did NOTHING! Children were raped! Are you out of your mind? Children were raped! If you have evidence he didn't then prove it. Or contact him to have HIM prove it. You won't get an answer because he's a complete coward with no sense of morality or conscience. I plan on writing him a letter very soon about this matter because I've just about had it with you cult apologists who care more about a fat-ass guru than little kids who were abused at the hands and genitals of that maniac, Jagdeo, Maharaji's agent, employee and close associate. Tell me, why was Jagdeo guarded after these allegations came out during the time they happened? You have some nerve minimizing the rape of a 7 year old little girl for the sake of a no-good, creep of a cowardly man (if you want to stretch the definition of 'man') who you worship, namely, Guru Maharaj Ji, a/ka/ Prem Pal Singh Rawat, Malibu, California, among many other palaces (which we paid and slaved for). Fuck you very much. Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA -- who are you?

Subject: Re: Oh but there is evidence of complicity... From: CPG To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 08:13:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here we go again with the profanity, and opinions and anger presented as facts. Name any other victim please than the ONE who has come forward. Remember, 'A', the second alleged victim withdrew her account and all asked all material related to her be withdrawn from EPO. I am concerned about this issue too; i looked into it quite a bit a few months ago and after reading all of the material could not find the name of more than ONE alleged victim. So lets be clear about this and not blow angry smoke to try and cover it up OK/ It doesn't fool anybody.

Subject: Like I said CPG From: AJW To: CPG Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:28:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like I said CPG, I have spoken personally, face to face, to four victims of Jagdeo. I have no intention of publishing their names here. But as you seem to have an active interest in the matter, maybe you could ask your premie pals about a meeting that supposedly took place in Miami, around the late 80s, early 90s, to discuss what to do after Jagdeo had sexually assaulted the child of an Indian instructor. Somebody told me Maria Isabella was at the meeting. I'd like to know more about this. Anth Ginn

Subject: Jagdeo's Pedophilia and Maharaji From: Reprise from John MacGregor To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 11:17:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Even Glen Whittaker, who hasn't strayed from the reservation in 30 years, believes Maharaji's refusal to deal with the Jagdeo's sexual abuses years ago - when he was given the opportunity - was a grave miscalculation. Both he and Mark Winter are very pissed at M for this, as they had to pick up the PR mess years down the track - a mess M could have prevented by exercising some responsibility several years ago. Running an 'apologise and explain' PR exercise for a master who shelters a child molester is hardly the kind of dream service for which these extremely sincere guys joined up at the start of the 1970s. I've known Glen since the early 1970s, and he is a decent, friendly guy. He'll probably be manning the bridge on the good ship EV as it sinks beneath the waves in about 2005, such is his loyalty to M. But he is nevertheless disappointed with M over this affair. And if Glen's disappointed, you can imagine how others feel. Glen believes that Jagdeo did commit the sexual abuse he is accused of - though he personally didn't know about it before the revelations of the last two years. Others did, however. Jagdeo's crimes have been known about within EV, and by Maharaji, for more than 20 years. For instance there was a high-level meeting about Jagdeo's sexual abuse of children in 1980. Jagdeo appeared to have abused the child of a premie (a woman) then living in Florida. The woman was extremely wound up about it, and the instructor Maria Isabella - among others - was brought in to try and deal with her. Then as now, Maharaji had a very direct control, and a very thorough knowledge, of the activities of his instructors. In fact he controlled this aspect of his organisation more closely than any other. It's inconceivable that Maharaji was not aware of Jagdeo's activities then. But he chose not to act, beyond having the matter hushed up. The seachange finally took place when the revelations on EPO became too hard to ignore - especially in the UK. On January 22, 2000, Glen Whittaker wrote an official EV UK communication to Deepak (DUO India chief), informing him of the basic facts, and inquiring as to Jagdeo's whereabouts. It was realised that the Jagdeo 'problem' had the potential for unraveling things badly in the UK, because Maharaji's fingerprints were all over the cover-up. The revelations on EPO and the forum re Jagdeo's sexual abuse were the PR emergency of the decade for EV. I think what's happened since then is fairly well-known by people here. I'm fairly sure the civil action in India was devised as a 'blind' - to pacify critics with the appearance of action, and to reduce the chances of Jagdeo ever having to appear in a British courtroom. Glen wasn't involved in having the Jagdeo story suppressed in the Express - though he wasn't exactly on the side of the angels either. (When others found out about what Maharaji had permitted to happen, they left the cult - they didn't stay on to defend the indefensible.) EV's current read on the evil exes is that a kind of impasse has been reached: damage has been done, but there's not much more they can do, with Jagdeo in India. He'll never be allowed to set foot in the West again of course.

Subject: Re: Jagdeo's Pedophilia and Maharaji From: AJW To: Reprise from John MacGregor Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 04:06:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that informative post John. Everything you say corresponds to what other, unrelated accounts have told us about jagdeo and the big cult cover-up. Glen knew about what was going on at least four years ago, because I wrote and told him. They were personal letters, so I never published his replies. Then in November 98 I published my 'journey' on EPO, and he contacted me about he allegations officially. The letters are on EPO somewhere. Take care Anth the jigsaw

Subject: Re: Jagdeo's Pedophilia and Maharaji From: CPG To: Reprise from John MacGregor Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 12:19:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One guys completely unsubstantiated opinion. One guy I don't know from the guy who keeps emailing me get rich quick schemes. A guy who apparently had no personal knowledge of the crimes or M's knowledge of them. He talks about others having had to know. Internet story telling. Just the facts maam. Only there dont seem to be any. Only fifth hand stories and opinions from people who obviously despise Maharaji. What a joke.

Subject: you are seeing only what you want to see From: Susan To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:56:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Listen, it is HELL to come forward and tell the truth about this and get called a liar about one of the most painful things that ever happened to you. Both A. ( who has not said it didn't happened, just asked to have it off the web ) and myself know of other victims. The one I know has no intention of ever coming forward. We have discussed it. But what Jagdeo did to her was truly horrible. As I have said before his line was 'your clothes are your MIND, take off your clothes' do you think a 12 year old faithful, very believing young premie girl can deal with that without extreme pain forever? We who know of other victims owe more to those who do not want to come forward. Why would they , to be attacked? I know of at least 4 girls in seventies Miami who were molested or attempted to be molested by Jagdeo. I did report it, twice, but of course as we all know, no one I reported it to recalls. This is the truth. I am sick of it. I have done enough. I have said before I have no intention of suing anyone as I got away from that MONSTER before he could do much. But he did A LOT worse to his younger victims. IF you think they aren't out there you have huge blinders on. I also know EV knows of some of the other victims, maybe there are confidentiality agreements or maybe their parents are premies still or maybe people who it was reported to don't see fit to come on this board and report it. But that is the truth. Jagdeo was a MONSTER. Also, why would EV be suing him in India and saying he is a pedophile and then denying the truth of what A. and I say in the same press release. ( Like yes he is a molester but those two are wrong?) Anyone who reads that should get a grip. My biggest regret is I reproted Jagdeo to initiators instead of the police. But of course I would never have done that then, I trusted Guru Maharaj Ji and knew he would stop him. I was a 15 year old who believed at the time with all my heart.

Subject: Hi Susan. From: AJW To: Susan Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:34:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Susan, It's disgusting the way these creeps from the cult are constantly protecting Rawat's paedophile pal, and trying to discredit his victims. What a sorry mess of misguided, mindless, morons they are. Hope all is well with you and yours. Anth the nusiance.

Subject: Re: you are seeing only what you want to see From: cpg To: Susan Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 12:51:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I never called Susan or A a liar; personally I believe Susan and have to agree there were PROBABLY more victims. What I am responding to is the way others in this thread and elsewhere on here take there anger against M and convert it to 'facts' in this case. The fact is- there is only one victim willing to come forward. This makes it no less a horrible crime for this and any other victims, but to extrapolate from this a whole culture of pedophilia is pure fantasy. I have yet to read any evidence of complicity either.

Subject: To CPG on Jagdeo, Maharaji and moral corruption From: Livia To: cpg Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 07:14:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look CPG, I was a premie when I first heard about Jagdeo's paeodophilia. I read that he had abused several premie children, and knew for a fact that nothing official had ever been said about it, as I would have heard, being on the mailing list and having received every official communication for decades. My immediate feeling was an 'oh no' as simple common sense told me that if the information is out there on the internet, Maharaji must also know about it. So my first feeling was, if Maharaji knew about it before me (it had been on the internet for at least a couple of years before I read it) why had nothing been announced about it? Surely, if Maharaji was a genuine teacher with good ethical standards, the first thing he would do would be to send a letter to all the premies saying that these terrible facts had come to light. He would then announce that Jagdeo had been reported to the police, stripped of his instructor status and dealt with appropriately. He would also request all victims to come forward so they could be apologised to and compensated in some way. It doesn't matter how you look at it, CPG, anything less than that is totally unacceptable. Maharaji, as Jagdo's master, is absolutely not in a position where he can abnegate responsibility for Jagdeo's actions. That does not make him guilty of paedophilia himself - obviously not. But as Jagdeo's master the onus is most certainly on him to deal with the situation. If all this hadn't come to light, I would probably still be a practising premie. It was after finding out about Jagdeo and realising that Maharaji hadn't acted appropriately, that I began to doubt him. I never had a moment's doubt before that. And any premie who hears about Jagdeo and Maharaji's lack of appropriate action needs to look seriously at their own conscience, or lack of it. If they feel Maharaji has done nothing to cause them to doubt him, then they have lost their own essential moral and ethical sense. Their belief in him has superceded it, leaving them in a moral quagmire where anything goes - if Maharaji does it. I came to my senses at that point and for the first time began to see Maharaji as he really must be - a deeply flawed person whose own moral sense is seriously lacking. His desire to maintain his apparent credibility and 'keep up appearances' has overtaken any compulsion to 'do the right thing'. And what kind of person does that then make him? Not, absolutely not what we all thought he was, period. And you, CPG, just can't see it, because you have been too corrupted. And quite frankly I find that scary. Livia

Subject: Re: To CPG From: CPG To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 15:18:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tunnel vision ...take off the blinders, baby. You are so immeshed in your own view you can't see the illogic of it. You totally agree with 'Us' or you are a scary demented person. Maharaji is a god in a bod, the perfect being; anything less and he is scum. The world ain't black and white, there are many shades of grey, and these absolute and extreme conclusions based on inuendo and rumor are infantile.

Subject: Re: To CPG From: The Falcon To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 09:54:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: please stop! the facts, that's facts, are this (and well documented) Jagdeo raped and indecently assaulted young girls throughout his tenure as the representative of Maharaji in the West (and wherever else. Maharaji was told, did nothing and said nothing to avoid compensation claims (in my opinion). How you can come here against the agya of your guru and attempt to deny, revise and question this is appalling! It takes a lot to rile me but you have succeeded. Little comfort to your conscience, however. Get a life (of your own) and have some consideration and compassion for the victims of this monster mahatma of your guru. Where is your fucking heart, premie with emotions in suspension!!!???

Subject: Re: To CPG From: Livia To: CPG Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 15:24:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look, CPG, your total inability or downright refusal even to contemplate that there may have been a cover-up speaks volumes. Rational, discriminating, thinking and aware people generally sense when it's the right time to smell a rat. Irrational, non-discriminating, unclear and unaware people tend to miss the truth of a situation. This is because for one reason or another they have lost the reason, discrimination, clarity and awareness they were presumably born with. Membership of a cult has a tendency to remove one's reason, discrimination, clarity of thought and awareness. One may join a cult in all good faith, unable to see the fact that one is joining a cult. One may even join a cult without knowing it's a cult, in the sincere hope of increasing one's awareness. Sadly however, years of cult membership tend have the opposite effect, replacing awareness with a sort of fundamentalism. This fundamentalism can even pose as 'increased awareness' but it's fundamentalism alright. It just doesn't feel like it when you're in the middle of it. One of the attributes of fundamentalism is the inability to see the possibility of any fault in one's chosen leader. In this way, Moonies have total faith in Sun Myung Moon, the Rajneeshis had total faith in Bhagwan and Sai Baba devotees have total faith in Sai Baba. Moon has links with far-right organisations, Bhagwan oversaw a murder and used his devotees for his own sexual pleasures and Sai Baba has sexually abused young boys and men for decades. Thousands upon thousands of devotees of all three of the above had total faith in their masters, even after finding out what had been going on. Some of these devotees are seeing the light and realising that their masters were charlatans. Others can't see it and cling to the belief that their master is/was perfect. I have a Sai Baba devotee friend who just cannot believe the abuse allegations around her master; her fundamentalist need to believe is too strong. I also know premies who have heard all the allegations about Maharaji and just cannot believe them; their fundamentalist need to believe in him is too strong. What would you say to my Sai Baba devotee friend? I'm serious - read the Sai Baba ex site, and then please get back to me. Do you think the allegations could be true? If you were a Sai Baba devotee do you think that you, like her, might have difficulty believing the allegations and may try to look for rationalisations and explanations, as she does? If you go to Google and type in 'ex sai baba', a site will come up 'for concerned ex followers of Sai Baba'. I'd be genuinely interested to know what you think. Livia

Subject: ex premie logic primer- From: CPG To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 18:46:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: EX PREMIE LOGIC PRIMER - everyone must agree completely with the ex party line as enunciated on EPO and this forum - anyone who doesn't agree or questions any aspect of the party line has been brainwashed by The Cult- not the ex-cult, the non-ex-cult. This is a very safe belief system for the persons emplying it; I have seen it employed by many. Eg, I have seen alcoholics use this system- if you drink you are an alcoholic; if you don't agree with me you are in denial. Either way you are in their view an alcoholic, there is no question that their belief system is intact and correct, the only question is whether the person in question is too messed up to see your truth. Talk about a cult. This is a very dangerous belief system and is by definition FASCIST. -look it up if you don't agree with me. Livia, I appreciate your concern but in fact I have looked through all of this stuff extensively because I want to know about my teacher. I have stated my conclusions here; no one was interested because while I accept some of the things said here I don't all. With my belief system and experience of K I can accept M as my teacher even with minor faults. I have seen no evidence or even decent circumstantial evidence of anything more than this. I object to people on this forum mistating others experiences or observations, quoting completely unsubstantiated rumors as fact, and , as in this case, expanding one alleged incident into a culture of pedophilia and a cover up. The cover up is only wishful thinking on the part of those who wish M harm. There is absolutely no evidence of this. ' He had to know' doesn't count. Susan telling someone to tell him 25 years ago doesn't cut it for me. There are far more benign explainations than otherwise, all just as viable. If the purpose of this forum is to enlighten others, meaning with the truth, everyone will be better served by sticking to the facts and claiming your opinions or hopes as just that, not as reality.

Subject: Re: ex premie logic primer- From: Livia To: CPG Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 08:45:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: look CPG, you're still clinging to your abject refusal to entertain the idea that a, there has been a cover-up, and b, you are in a cult. Calling doubters a cult is sublimely ridiculous. Would you call former communists or former born-again Christians who no longer subscribe to their earlier belief a cult? I have a friend who used to be a Jehovah's Witness and is now dealing with very similar issues to ex-premies. All these people are EX CULT MEMBERS, geddit?!! Being an ex cult member and communicating with other ex cult members doesn't make you a member of a cult!!! It's a temporary phase of deconstructiing with the help of others who are going through the same thing, before freeing oneself and moving on. And cults have leaders, by the way. And another thing, you completely ignored my suggestion that you look at the ex Sai Baba site and come back to comment. This would take you five minutes of your time. I asked you to look at the site and comment, as an outside observer, on the allegations of these Sai Baba devotees, who seem disillusioned in the extreme. Well? Livia

Subject: Flawed Logic and Convoluted Thoughts... From: Cynthia To: CPG Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 20:49:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CPG Your post above makes no sense. Especially your attempt at using alcoholism as an analogy. Alcoholism is a disease. You also speak in absolutes. For instance, ''everybody'' must agree ''completely'' with the party line. How would you know about ''everybody?'' Impossible. If ''everybody'' must agree ''completely'' there again you are claiming some special or magical way of having information about all ex-premies (who post here, anyway). I think you're projecting because it's my experience here that many of us disagree with eachother on various issues. I wonder about the evolution by premies flinging back their (your) cultist thought proceses by calling us a cult. It's an interesting 'back in your face' turn of events and is absurd. You can't think clearly or see Maharaji objectively because you've given up your freedom of thought to Rawat. You can't see that you've done this because you already gave it up...you're programmed, locked in, brainwashed, call it what you want, but you're in over your head. Look, when it comes around to child abuse, especially child sexual abuse, I won't stop talking until all child abuse ends. Someone over at LG criticized my first post to you about victim A. Being a survivor of horrific child abuse, I can tell you this: if you've never been sexually abused as a child, it's almost impossible to know what the experience is throughout one's life. It is a wounding of a child that is life damaging. The only way out of it is to strive to heal, whichever way works, but usually it takes years and years of therapy. Furthermore, having worked very closely with Maharaji for an extended period of time, a year, I know that not much happens around him that he doesn't know about or have control over. He's a control freak. He micro-manages. And he has lousy personality. He may be great on stage to you, but behind the scenes, he quite a piece of nasty work. Don't tell me about child abuse until you've walked a day in my shoes. If you continue to be abusive to Livia or anyone else here I'm going to ask that you be blocked. Maybe you need to stop meditating for a few months, not listen to Rawat's videos, get out of touch and see how much better you feel. Then come back and argue that we are the cult. I won't even bother to address your comment that ex-premies are fascists because by saying that you reveal you don't know what fascism is. Look it up.

Subject: Smell the coffee cpg. From: AJW To: cpg Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:38:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cpg, I've spoken to four victims. Ihere is a report of a mahatmas child being abused by him. There are reports that he had special sessions with young children, in darkened rooms at Unity School in Denver and Wringford in England. An ex-national co-ordinator told me his tours were retricted because of reports of his paedophilia. Wherever Jagdeo went, it seems there was a culture of child abuse. It was reported to Gurucharanand, Randy Proudy, and Judy Osbourne. There were all full time officials in the cult at the time. Nothing was done about it because Jagdeo is a big pal of Rawat, the ver imperfect master. Grow up cpg. Anth Ginn.

Subject: Who do you see.... From: PatD To: cpg Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 20:05:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...when you stand & clap the speaker? Then sit & listen to his words of wisdom that you can't remember 5 mins. afterwards. 'Wow,that was great'....'Yeahh right,just the same,it's amazing,he's saying the same thing he's always said'...'Did you hear him say so & so'....'No,missed that one,must've nodded off at that point'....'I know a great Chinese restaurant just round the corner'....'it's amazing to see all these people I haven't seen for ages'.....'who is this guy'...dunno.....'stopped thinking about that'....'do you still meditate'....'I know what you mean,got to get it together'...'I remember when blah blah'....'do you reckon he'll dance again'....'who're those fuckers in the front row seats... 'he's trying to change all that'....'he's the man though isn't he'....'yeah fantastic,let's get a drink'...'nice to see you again'... 21st century satsang,nice & easy. That's not at all the vibe that the greater than god built his wealth on & you know it. The children who were abused by Jagdeo were given into his care by parents who believed that a realised soul,appointed such by the Lord of the Universe,were on the road to bliss & god consciousness under his(mahatma...great soul) guidance. So that turned out to be the wrong way to look at things did it? ...'yeah,the closer you get to the sun the more you get burned'...'those that were 1st shall be last'...'she's got a really good job now & can get to all the events'...'I don't know what to make of him ,but it's nice to see you again'... FUCK YOU cpg, & all your friends.

Subject: Of course people are angry at Rawat From: gerry To: cpg Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 15:09:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Complicity lies in the disputed fact that Rawat was told early on about Jagdeo's uh, predilictions, and Prem chose to look the other way while continuing to send Jagdeo out on 'missions.' You know what, pal? It would not take much, just some time and dedication, to track down Jagdeo's victims. Rawat has the resources to do so and he certainly could be doing a whole lot more to reach out to victims. But I know that's expecting way too much of him as a man. Think about this: if Rawat DIDN'T know about Jagdeo, then he would be doing something about it, if he were an honorable and accountable adult. The facts are looking like he was told by at least two different sources. Probably more and I'd guess they had a lot of discussion about it. But if Rawat did know about Jagdeo and did nothing but shift Jagdeo around, than that's even worse. Either way, Rawat is fucked on this deal and it's his own fault that he's in this predicament.

Subject: It wasn't a culture of pedophilia From: Susan To: cpg Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 13:30:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have not seen anyone say that. In fact, the Hare Khrishna's HAD a culture of pedophilia, where children were sent to GuruKula's ( boarding schools) and tortured. It was my belief when I was a premie that Maharaj Ji cared about children, thus I reported it to him. But without the people I reported it to to back me up, I can't prove anything. There are a few people I told who remember my telling THEM that I had told the two initiators. But the initiators themselves do not remember, or claim not to remember, my telling them. This would not make Rawat 'complicit' until he did not remove Jagdeo from duties, I cannot even imagine Rawat reporting Jagdeo to the police as should have been done. It simply was not 'our' culture at the time. We believed Rawat was the Lord of the Universe, who would be a higher authority to report it to than him. Thus that is who I attempted to report it to, and I still believe got the message. Because of the response of him being glad it was not a new report. I believe Rawat did do something about Rawat, but perhaps he ( like most of people in the seventies and eighties ) thought he could discipline Jagdeo out of it. But that is pure speculation. It is so like the Catholic Church. I am angry too at the Cardinals who protected themselves and their reputations rather than protecting kids. That is complicit, and that is the way he is I believe complicit, how he responded, once he knew. I am not saying he approved. I am saying I think he knew, did something too little, and thought he had taken care of the problem. The culture of the time is complicit too, as we all believed with Rawat's full endorsement he was Lord of the Univierse. He didn't tell us the words to arti were not literal, he did tell us Guru is greater than God, no matter what all the revisionists say , lots of us, myself included, really believed in him, and that he cared, and that he was the Perfect master, or the Messiah of our time. And we all know his satsangs encouraged this. At the time, any quote of his was He said, not he said..... His being LOTU has a lot to do with it being brushed under the carpet for so long. I am sure he did not approve of Jagdeo being a pedophile. I just think he was too cowardly, ignorant or into protecting his own reputation to do anything about it. By the way, thank you for believing me. Every word is the truth.

Subject: Re: It wasn't a culture of pedophilia From: CPG To: Susan Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 15:42:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now that is a clear, rational message. Others have extrapolated far more from your report. 'Pedophilia in the Maharaji Cult' implies to me a widespread problem or cultural acceptance of it, and others have posted those sentiments here as well, stating rumor as fact. As the only victim to come forward, if I were you I would correct them to maintain the integrity of your story. There are many possible scenarios fo M being told or not. Some make him a scumbag, some make him innocent, and most lie in between. Would you imprison a cardinal and dismantle the Catholic Church if he had heard 3rd hand of one incident 25 yrs ago, unverified, had not heard directly from the victim, and didn't follow up as conventional wisdom about pedophiles would dictate in todays world/ Me, I would say in a perfect world he should have handled it differently, but in light of medical thought of pedophilia at the time I wouldn't condemn him for it. On the other hand, these cardinals who knew priests were raping kids, because they came forward directly and severally, then sent the priest out to be near kids again, I would throw them in prison. The point is there is no evidence or even suggestion that anything remotely like this was the case with maharaji, yet many on this forum state that just that is the fact. Those who state this demolish their own credibility and integrity by doing so.

Subject: Re: It wasn't a culture of pedophilia From: Vicki To: Susan Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 23:08:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It just occurs to me that these instructors who simply can't remember must either be lying or have organic memory loss. Why? Because how many children would have come up to an instructor in those days, or even now, and tell them they have been sexually abused by Jagdeo? Wouldn't that tend to shock and disturb an instructor so deeply it is something they would remember for the rest of their life? Unless of course, they followed their conscience, got word to Maharaji and in due course were told either it was handled or to forget about it, and now with the current attitude of revisionism, that it was the victim's fault or fabricated. This is not like being told some simpering gossip. It is earth shattering and mind boggling. Of course they would remember. How convenient to say they can't. Typical legal maneuver. But of course, all's fair in the world of agya.

Subject: The 'I do not recall' Syndrome... From: Cynthia To: Vicki Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 06:36:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Vicki, How are you? After so many official 'I do not recall(s)' coming from the political arena, I've come to believe that people actually might believe themselves when they say 'I don't remember.' It's an odd thing that. Even folks on witness stands or sitting before Congressional or Senatorial Committee, swear under oath that 'I do not recall,' or 'not to my recollection.' I wonder how much the individuals who were informed about Jagdeo really can't recall. It's disgusting. When it concerns an innocent child or the account of an adult survivor of abuse, I think it's beneath contempt for someone to suddenly lose their memory. The person who strikes me as particularly unbelievably forgetful is Judy O. She's a midwife, delivered Marolyn's children. And Marolyn is another big question mark in my mind about who knew what and when they knew it. I'm convinced through a simple hunch that Marolyn has known about this too. I'd like to be proven wrong, but if I'm correct, this means she's truly living in denial. Love, Cynthia

Subject: HI Cynthia From: Vicki To: Susan Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 23:07:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm okay except for sputtering the pollution that has decended upon us with the summer heat. I'm sure you're correct that some people legitimatly "can't remember" when put on a witness stand. Unfortunately, it is also a legal maneuver. Saying "I can't recall" is a cheap cop out. There is no way an instructor or VIP would not remember such a heneous thing being told to them in the context of the time. This was the era of love and peace and goodness. Come to knowledge to escape the maya; not come to knowledge and get more maya than you've ever encountered with sexual abuse thrown in. I firmly believe such a thing would have been so outrageously out of context in the premie world that they would not only remember it, but remember it with surprising clarity. But then again, agya justifies even lying doesn't it?

Subject: I think I said it incorrectly... From: Cynthia To: Vicki Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 07:56:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, I think what I meant to say was that when people say 'I do not recall' they go into a small sort of denial, but know full well they are protecting themselves by using these phrases to lie. I was on my first cup of coffee...sorry:) Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Oh but there is evidence of complicity... From: Cynthia To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:34:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here we go again with the profanity, and opinions and anger presented as facts. Name any other victim please than the ONE who has come forward. Remember, 'A', the second alleged victim withdrew her account and all asked all material related to her be withdrawn from EPO, Gee, CPG, whoever you are, have you never heard the 'F' word before? Well, I apologize. See, I like to swear, that's just me. I don't consider the abuses perpetrated by Jagdeo as allegations. Why? Because I've read A.'s accounts of the rape and I believe her. I've had private email conversations with her and I know she's telling the truth. Why would anyone lie about being so severely abused as a child? For fun? Certainly not for money. A. holds an advanced degree and works for a university. It's not really about money, but when one is so wounded by sexual abuse, the only compensation IS money. Therapy is very expensive and in cases of early childhood sexual assault, it often takes much time to work through the issues in order to heal. I've also spoken on the phone to one other victim and I believe her, too. Also, I am a survivor of incest and sexual abuse as a child--it lasted about ten years from age 2-1/2 to age 13. So this is an issue that is particularly important to me and a subject about which I'm very well educated and informed. That's why I become indignant when someone comes along and speaks without knowledge and information. Gerry is quite correct about pedophiles. They average over a 100, sometimes to 300 victims in their criminal career, so I am willing to bet there are hundreds of victims all over this world who were abused by Jagdeo. It's simply the MO of a pedophile. It's as simple as that. Don't believe me, again, read up. There's tons of material on the internet. You bet I'm angry with Maharaji for covering up the Jagdeo abuses and that anger comes through whenever someone like you comes here and anonymously makes statements that are mindless, especially about the issues of child abuse in all it's forms. Please go to the link I've provided and you'll find quite a bit of information to get started. Btw, PCA-America was formerly called the Committee for the Prevention of Child Abuse. Prevent Child Abuse America was renamed after Vermont's PCA-Vermont which was founded and is run by none other than my own private therapist, a humanitarian who I would compare to Mother Theresa. Someone who has dedicated her life to stopping ALL child abuse. She is a saint if there are saints and she helped me to recover from my childhood. Because of her efforts and successes in reducing abuse in Vermont, she has gained national recognition. She works two jobs: as the Director of PCA-Vermont, and as a private psychotherapist specializing in recovering adult survivors of child abuse. She's told me many times when I've asked her how she does it that the Director job is most challenging and stressful, but the psychotherapy job gives her the most satisfaction and relaxation. She's a wonder woman--a lioness and a lamb. Again, sorry for the profanity... Cynthia J. Gracie Prevent Child Abuse America (PCA America) www.preventchildabuse.org/learn_more/research.html

Subject: Re: Oh but there is evidence of complicity... From: gerry To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 08:24:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know of at least one other victim other than the one we can't mention. She has posted on this board. Other people know the names of other victims as well, although I personally do not. Pedophiles like the one Rawat pampered and protected NEVER have just one or two victims. In his case, with all that easy and 'private' access to children bolstered by his elevated 'spiritual' status, Jagdeo must have had a field day. Undoubtably, he has dozens of victims, all over the world. These creeps don't stop until they are caught and isolated. Like Cynthia said, educate yourself about the issue. One question for you though, if Rawat is the Perfect Master and all, how come he had such a lowlife scumbag like Jagdeo representing him?

Subject: Re: Pedophilia in the Maharaji Cult From: Ang To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 18:15:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'If true'? 'ONE victim'? 'alleged victim'? You asshole. Open your closed and pitiful eyes to what your are protecting and worshiping. The closed-mindedness you exhibit can only be done with intense effort and absolute abdication of self and decency. I feel great pity for all followers of this despicable creature and loathing for him.

Subject: Re: Pedophilia in the Maharaji Cult From: gerry To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 17:54:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You mean VICTIM, asshole, and not alleged. And FatAss paid her off bigtime in case you haven't figured that out for yourself. Hopefully this is only the begning and Lard will go bankrupt compensating his victims. And I'm really sick and tired of you pathetic cult apologists standing up for these creeps.

Subject: Maharaji's Continued Money-Grubbing From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 09:41:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I paid a visit to the website of the 'Prem Rawat Foundation' and discovered the latest attempt by Maharaji to suck even more money out of his followers. As you know, Leaders Magazine did a disgraceful puff piece 'interview' with Maharaji in their magazine, which is given away free to those considered elite enough to get a copy. Actually, the magazine appears to be not much more than a vehicle to get high-end advertising in front of rich people. I would wager that no premie had ever even heard of the magazine prior to the former Lord of the Universe appearing therein and the propogation value is, well, zilch. Anyhow, never one to overlook an opportunity to get money, Maharaji is now offering cult members their very own copy of the Leaders Magazine for a mere $20. Really. $20 for a free magazine. Maharaji, the owner of $7 million yachts and jet planes, is charging $20 for a copy of the damn magazine. You can see for yourself over at the PRF website at www.tprf.org. You know, that's the 'Foundation' that has as its symbol what appears to be the outline of a very buxom woman. I would love to meet the genius who came up with that embarrassing logo. No, wait, I think I know who it might have been, and given what we know about his own sexual behavior, isn't it fitting? Dr. Freud, are you in?

Subject: It's worse than we think. From: AJW To: Joe Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:52:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, I've heard all sorts of rumours recently about the dire finances of the cult. Membership is declining. Income is at an all-time low. The dwindling full-time officials are dwindling even more. Some of them, apparently, have decided to take the money and run. If things get much worse, Rawat might even have to fire a few servants and sell one of the family Ferraris. It won't be long before he opens his luxury used car mart on the Pacific coast highway. Anth the conch. (I hear the sea.)

Subject: Re: It's worse than we think. From: Much WerseDoc To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 08:52:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'all sorts of rumours' ? Oh shit, I thought we was gonna get the juicy facts, man. :( Fuch rumours, what fucking use are they? I herd a rumour that you once taught M's kids. Did you spin them a bunch of rumours too?

Subject: Keep them coming, Doc...:):):) From: Cynthia To: Much WerseDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 08:54:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm loving your posts lately. You are one great cult supporter! Keep talking, Doc, keep talking.....Oh I'm starting to just love you sooo much! Cynthia Gracie

Subject: I'll try Cyn, I'll try :) From: OverworkeDoc To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 08:56:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But it's bloody hard work you know!! I dunno, coming up with new and humorous insights on a daily basis.....trying to be vaguely relevant without being insulting. Well, I'm learning, I'm learning....=) But actually, I think the Doc is a bit like a stale biscuit nowadays. He should either be put back in the oven or fed to the dog.;)

Subject: You're an IdiotDoc... [nt] From: Cynthia To: OverworkeDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 10:38:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Any details Anth?. From: la-ex To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 08:20:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Especially on the 'take the money and run' premies? That one, if true, sounds hysterically funny.... Any details you can share at the moment?

Subject: Re: Maharaji's Continued Money-Grubbing From: Inside Edition To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 20:52:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, Over at enjoyinglife.org there is a prominent announcement that 'seats are still available for much of the current European tour' (surprise, surprise, and gee - why no stop in France this year?), so you have to figure he needs to sell the Leaders magazines to make up the difference! (He probably had to buy 10,000 or so to get the 'interview' planted.)

Subject: The Boobs Logo From: Ang To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 17:55:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow, thanks! I thought I was losing it, because everytime I glance at the computer when my husband is in the tprf site, I keep seeing two large boobs. I almost asked him what the heck he was looking at one night, then I realized it was a very 'loose' interpretation of 'PR'. Then I look at the 'tprf' and have to keep a straight face because my kids always call toilet paper, 'tp', and that is what I think of when I see 'tprf'. Pretty accurate, after all, I guess.

Subject: Toilet Paper Reuse Foundation..TPRF From: Cynthia To: Ang Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 08:54:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Toilet Paper Reuse Foundation..TPRF From: Ang To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 08:59:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ""Toilet Paper Reuse Foundation..TPRF"" --- Thanks for that clarification! I've heard so much about 'clarity', I could puke, but that was helpful!

Subject: Re: Toilet Paper Reuse Foundation..TPRF From: Cynthia To: Ang Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 08:58:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Ang, I think TP is a universal term for toilet paper. What a dummy Rotwat is!

Subject: Re: Toilet Paper Reuse Foundation..TPRF From: Ang To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 09:05:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Rotwat'. That is the best name I've heard for him yet. He seems unable to stick with any one name himself which makes it dificult to konw what to call him at any given time. (Well, I do know, but children might read this.) Rotwat is perfect for the 'perfect master'. Wow, just typing that makes me need to go wash my hands. Bye, and thanks!

Subject: You rang? From: Sigmund Freud To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 09:54:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vell, I will tell what I sink about ziss Rawat fellow. It is ovious from ziss logo you mention that he is truly obsessed with zee breast of woman. I am postulating that ziss individual must be a teenage boy. If he is an adult, then ziss is troubling indeed. Hmmm, he is an adult you say? I've never seen anysing quite like ziss before. Ziss person suffers from advanced megalomania and extreme narcisism. He must have been told from a very young age that he was like God or greater than that even. That trauma coupled with an obvious withdrawal of his Mother's affection which was replaced by adulation of the masses. Ziss worship he interpreted as his Mother's milk and is to this day addicted to it. Further I would suppose he would be drawn to extramarital affairs with an idealized form of woman, say buxom blondes. He probably also is addicted to substances such as nicotine, alcohol and expensive material objects - all in a vain effort to reclaim his lost youth, Father's approval and Mother's love. The only hope for ziss troubled person is to face himself and accept the wounds of his childhood. But I am afraid he is beyond hope. Am I right or am I right? Perhaps if he took a Siggie break instead of a ciggie break, things would improve. :) Siggie the Fraud, er I mean Freud (aka Richard)

Subject: A Question, Doktor Freud... From: Cynthia To: Sigmund Freud Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 10:56:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't you think that Mr. Rawat has developed a transference problem with what you describe as the breasts logo? I really believe it is a Rolls Royce logo. I realize some people believe it is an ass logo, too, so perhaps the symbolic interpretations of these three sub-conscious connections to this narcissistic leader's website presents us with more information about this 'guru' than his followers might acknowledge. It is my opinion that he is both obsessed with large breasts and expensive automobiles, in addition to having quite a large rear end. This must explain the $20 charge for a free magazine Leaders which he offers to his followers. An insatiable thirst for material things, which do include his taste for extra large breasts, excessively expensive cars, and his extra-extra large buttocks. Do you agree?

Subject: An answer, Cynthia From: Siggie To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 11:28:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah yes. You have obviously taken much notice of zis Rawat person. You have seen subtleties in his character that even I, the great Freud, missed on first inspection of his case. Breasts, buttocks and zee big boy toys. Transference indeed, I applaud your perceptive nature. Furthermore, zee logo itself implies to his followers that, if zay succumb to his charismatic persuasion, zay will nurse at the breast of the Divine Mother and have eternal nourishment. Rubbish, I say. Of course one can only find peace with themself after years of therapy.:) BTW, I am pleased zat you are speaking with me. It was you, I believe, who said I was 'a nightmare for women'. I don't know why you would say that but perhaps we can discuss it over a nice schnapps some time, eh? I hope you wont mind if I smoke a big cigar. Your pal Siggie, who is a shrink but no shrinking violet

Subject: It was the Oedipal Complex, Doktor Freud... From: Cynthia To: Siggie Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 12:05:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Doktor Freud, I must explain why I said you were a 'nightmare for women' and hope you understand. When you were doing psychoanalysis you found that many of your female analysands were revealing much information about incest in their lives, Herr Freud. You wrote a paper with alarm about this frequency in the female analysands' reports of experiencing sexual abuse. Then when your father died you reversed your opinion, especially when your colleagues looked at your paper on this subject and were aghast at your findings and disagreed with you. You then said the women were fantasizing sex with their fathers! You called it the Oedipal Complex which continues to be believed to this day! Don't you realize Doktor, that this set back the treatment of child abuse victims by many decades? I know that part of your reversal on this subject was due to revelations of incest within inside your own family. However, I must slap your wrists ten times for this cowardly act on your part. I am disappointed that it took so many years for psychologists to recognize the Oedipal Complex was hogwash and that you took the coward's way out. But I know and understand you were quite stimulated by cocaine during your adult life and can forgive you this transgression. Thank you for your offer of schnapps, but I'd prefer something less sweet--cognac, perhaps, and of course you may smoke a cigar, if I can smoke a cigarette. We'll discuss it. I do respect your many other discoveries in the field of psychiatry, Doktor Freud, but you erred in your decision to recant about the reality of incest by establishing the Oedipal Complex theory and I certainly hope you're sorry. That is the only reason I would say you're a nightmare to women. Your cautious friend, Cynthia

Subject: Don't you mean Electra complex...? [nt] From: Neville To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 16:12:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Don't you mean Electra complex...? From: Cynthia To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 08:59:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Neville, While the Oedipus Complex does refer to boys, it has been used by shrinks to discount reports of sexual abuse in girls and women. The Electra Complex is another of Freud's theories and concerns penis envy, blaming the mother for castrating a girl, who desires to have her father's children, etc.... It's another of Freud's blunders, but you are correct in that it is closely tied to the Oedipal Complex. Electra Complex www.umsl.edu/~mgriffin/psy302/Simokaitis/electra_complex.html

Subject: Re: Electra complex...? From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 15:54:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Isn't the Electra Complex where young women inexplicably have fantasies of driving 60's Buicks? Or maybe I'm thinking of Venus Envy where young guys imagine they are nude, headless, armless and on public display in an art museum. Richard, too complex for me

Subject: Richard... From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 16:16:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You make me laugh so much. If I could get you together with my husband and his life-long friend, Brian, the three of you would be cracking each other up. Actually, Brian lives in Tacoma. Maybe I can hook you up. He's a very interesting guy--don't want to reveal to much about him here on F7, but he's famous in Tacoma. He and Tom have been best friends since the 3rd grade and have kept in touch all these years. The only reason Brian ended up in Tacoma is because when Tom was young (and stupid) he got married at age 19 and joined the Air Force in 1973 (he never was sent to Vietnam, but did see a lot of body bags arrive at the Air Force base where he was stationed in Tacoma). Brian moved out west, following Tom after Brian had a difficult relationship breakup, and he married there and has actually lived longer on the west coast then back east. He's a unique man. They get going with puns and...it's unbelievable! But, not a complex. :):)

Subject: Punny you should mention that Cynthia From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 17:16:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Two of my brothers and myself were recently in a car together. Man, can those guys pun. And of course I try to keep up. Meanwhile, two of the wives were rolling their eyes and praying the pun fest would end. I also had two comic buddy friends in Denver and when my brothers and I get on a roll (or at least open faced) my wife says 'You guys sound just like when you, Lenny and the other Richard used to get together'. Email me with info about Brian. I am just a few miles from Tacoma with a ferry ride in between. Richard, with a NW complex-shun ;)

Subject: Re: Punny you should mention that Cynthia From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 21:35:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, the wives always roll their eyes because it never stops...but I must admit it's always so enjoyable and funny...like a contest... I'll email you quite soon.... Much love, Cynthia

Subject: Oedipus wrecks From: Siggie To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 12:33:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I sink zat many of my adherents totally misunderstood the Oedipal Complex. I merely intended it as a mythological nod towards a tendency and by no means meant otherwise. Speaking of zee Complex, wasn't zat zee name given to ziss DECA place in Miami? And upon further inquiry, I've noticed photogaphs showing ziss Rawat person learing at his seductively dressed daughter. Don't you think ziss is, how we say therapeuticly speaking, warped behavior? Of course now, it appears he is grooming her to take over zee family business just like he was groomed. What goes around comes around, eh? One more sing (love zat edit feature). Cynthia, you seem so astute in zees matters so I pose another question for you. Don't you sink it rather odd zat a group of grown people would call ziss Rawat person Ze Boss or Ze Client when speaking with zose not involved but refer to him as Dad to each other and even to his face? Freudian Slip, indeed. In fact, zee whole dang closet vass showing. Didn't anyone notice? Many apologies for my inadvertant transgressions and betrayal of women. If I was not already quite dead, I would publicly right zese terrible wrongs. As far as you wanting to slap my wrists - perhaps you could tell me more about ziss most stimulating fantasy of yours. Afterwards, I vill tell you why I luff Jung Girls so much. Siggie, your pal but never a prim pal

Subject: Oedipus wrecks havoc... From: Cynthia To: Siggie Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 14:36:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Doktor Freud, I think you're slipping in your old, or, err, dead age, but the Oedipal Complex was and is used to this day to obfuscate real incest by blaming the victim of child sexual abuse by implying that 'it is not true, but a fantasy,' thereby blaming the victim. Doktor Freud, you may not have been clear about your theory, but your reputation as the ''Father (is that a slip?) of Psychoanalysis'' gave great weight to your Oedipal Complex theory. And for that, I would like to slap your wrists, but I must say by now you're probably too boney to feel anything and I might just take off your hand! My desire to slap your wrist is not a fantasy. Why all this fuss about fantasy, fantasy, fantasy, Herr Freud? It's not a fantasy. If you could stand before me now, I would slap your face but then your head would fall off! Ah, but you are correct; DECA was called the Complex and we referred to Prem Rawat as 'The Client.' Many premies, including myself during my time in Miami/Hialeah, called Prem Rawat 'Dad,' and his wife, 'Mom.' Looking back at those tendencies I do believe it was quite inappropriate but I also called him Lord of the Universe, so which is worse? However, I never wanted sexual relations with him, even though I was quite blonde at the time. I was much to tall for his taste I'm sure and he would never look me in the eyes whenever I was with him...odd, that. I also have seen his daughter dressed up sexual attire while singing to her father and noticed his lurid glances toward her. I agree, Herr Freud, that is VERY warped indeed. Perhaps you could write to Prem Rawat and tell him to stop doing such nasty things. Now, Doktor Freud, I think you should take some time to analyze yourself about your attraction to jung girls as I believe this to be very unhealthy for those girls and not very good for your reputation. You've done enough damage with your Oedipal Complex which is complex enough, why jeopardize your future with such trashy fantasies? Well, I must go offline now, and wish you the best, but you must stay away from those jung girls! Sincerely, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Oedipus wrecks havoc... From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 18:04:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Cynthia. It was fun putting on Siggie's mask and I must say I learned a lot today. Shows what can happen when we play a bit. I think there is much truth in some of our suppositions. Richard

Subject: Me too, Richard... From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 08:57:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks to you too. I love your sense of humor...it's much like my husband's and you're a wonder at making puns... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Kick in the Shins fantasy From: Joy To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 00:56:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Richard and Cynthia, for brightening up my day, I'm in stitches over this thread! Cynthia, you're hilarious (re the slapping of wrists and heads flying off!). For what it's worth, I had a serious fantasy for several years after becoming an ex of wanting to kick Maharaji in the shins. I just kept imagining myself meeting up with him in some manner, and instead of lying flat on the floor and trying to touch or kiss his feet (can you believe we did this to this creep?) I strongly desired to walk up to him and say, 'Maharaji, this is from me for what you did to my life all these years' and give him a good hard kick. Not a slap in the face or a kick in the butt, but a gigantic kick as hard as I can in the leg. Care to analyze that, Dr. Freud?

Subject: Re: Kick in the Shins fantasy From: Siggie To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 06:44:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vell, my dear I voould zay zat your fantasy has deep psychological implications. Yah, perhaps you may need to be in our clinic for some time to undergo treatment. On second thought, ze anzer is quite simple. You were/are really P.O.'d at ziss Rawat. From what I surmise - you are completely justified. Expressing your anger by kicking him in zer leg is obviously an attempt to make him fall to the ground and thus grovel at your feet. Only then will you be free of his grasp. Zo even if ziss kicking and subsequent groveling happens only in your mind, ze result is the same and voila, you are now a free person. I believe ze modern expression is to just kick ze habit. By the way, have you tried Shin Toe Ism? Ze anzer may lie there. :) There is alzo a martial art you could try - Toe Fu. Siggie, who loves a good shindig

Subject: And don't forget Feng Shoey [nt] From: Neville To: Siggie Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 08:51:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Kick in the Shins fantasy From: Janet To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 02:09:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: louise hay in her book 'you can heal your life' has a section in the back about the correlation between trouble in parts of the body and metaphysical trouble in parts of our psyches. there is also a correlation to which parts of the body are ruled by which astrological signs. louise hay says that anything focusing on the shins has to do with issues about not being able to move forward. in astrology, the shins are ruled by aquarius, the sign most focused on the future and the inventive, the new, the scientific and unconventional--with a motive of having to do with benefitting the greatest mass of humanity, not specific people, something like the way NASA's needs end up being used to create new products that are useful to everyone. invention, science, discovery for its own sake, irrespective of persons. so wanting to kick the fatboy in the shins might be indicative of expressing rage and wrath at his holding us back, his antipathy toward individual genius, his stalling a mass of followers in an ancient, backward practice and intentionally deterring them from using their minds, their unique individual drive to explore and invent and question and create with impersonal betterment of the race as their motive. in my first internet incarnation, I was known as 'flawedgenius' which some troll in my first chatroom caricatured into fraudgenius. so perhaps i may answer you under the name --Doctor Fraud Genius thats the best i can give you. it's *something*.

Subject: Dr. Ron Geaves From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 09:31:31 (PDT) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: Hi Everyone, I looked in the archives and found a thread posted by Patrick W. that Dr. Ron Geaves gave some kind of presentation of a paper he wrote on the Maharaji Cult. I read that Patrick, or perhaps another ex-premie, spoke with another academic who attended this presentation and was surprised that Dr. Geaves did not disclose that he was a member of the Maharaji Cult. Has anyone followed up on this, or dicussed this with Dr. Geaves? I also notice that Dr. Geaves has never responded to the questions we raised, as discussed on the EPO website, about his participation in the very distorted video, 'Passages' put out by the cult, as well as his distorted statements therein. A search on Google for 'Ron Geaves' now shows that section of the EPO website as the first entry. Has anyone heard anything more about this? Joe

Subject: Oh Livia! From: Marianne To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 19:03:12 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Livia, could you email me please? Thanks, Marianne

Subject: To Marianne From: Livia To: Marianne Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 05:03:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marianne, I've just emailed you. Love, Livia

Subject: To Livia From: Dep To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 12:52:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, Thanks for your post below. You are obviously a nicer person than I am (I'm serious). Call me naive if you want but I still think prisoners - who after all are human beings just like us - can benefit from meditation. As for Mickey, the more out of touch with Reality anyone seems, the more I marvel at the ingenuity with which divinity hides in order to seek itself.

Subject: I don't feel like being kind to you Dep... From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 09:01:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why don't you try getting your head out of your ass and breath some fresh air...it might get the shit out of your brain. You take up a lot of space here with your crappy ideas, too. Get well, Cynthia

Subject: So long skank! From: Dep To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 18:32:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Come on, Dep From: gerry To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 20:19:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: To Dep From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 15:43:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, thanks for your post above. I don't know about being a nicer person, I just think clarity is really important and genuine kindness of an ultimately higher order than the kind of transcendentalism that doesn't necessarily of itself lead to (genuine) kindness. And I think you know this too, deep down. As for prisoners benefitting from meditation, I don't know. It probably depends on the prisoner and the meditation you're offering. If the report you quoted from came from an organisation that is pro-meditation, I wouldn't be too gung-ho over their conclusions. How about a completely non-biased report? And as someone said below, if you're really sure that meditation can help prisoners, why not set something up yourself? If you don't feel qualified to go and teach them yourself, why not find a group whose meditation you respect, such as a Buddhist group, and see if you can get them to liase with your local prison? You could then possibly visit the prisoners before and after they've started meditating (if they want to take up meditation) and find out for yourself how they've got on with it. I would imagine that it might benefit some but not all - some may be just too mentally damaged and disturbed to be able to focus. It would probably depend on what they're doing time for and how long they've been inside - all sorts of factors, but it could be worth a try, couldn't it? What do you think? Best regards, Livia

Subject: Thanks to the Troll Patrol From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 16:03:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A hearty thanks to the person(s) who just filtered out the trolls. I noticed troll droppings have been swept up. I don't mind someone sharing opinions contrary to mine but these trolls waste everyone's time including their own. I'm certain they will feel justified to run back to Life is So Freakin'Great or whatever their password protected inner sanctum is called and whine about how mean Ex's are. That is if they are even allowed a password over there. If trolls realized that they besmirch Pr's good(?) name every time they pull a prank, they'd stop posting here and go back to pulling wings off flies.

Subject: Trolls on the loose..... From: Ang To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 17:44:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Trolls on the loose....it's kind of like the sewers backing up, isn't it?

Subject: Re: Thanks to the Troll Patrol From: Cat To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 15:53:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Take no credit for my abscence. I am far too busy at the moment to bother with you lot. Besides ,leaving you to your own resources clearly demonstrates what a waste of space you really are Cheers The Cat

Subject: you inflate your importance From: janet To: Cat Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 02:15:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: we weren't referring to you in the remotest. go back to work.

Subject: Thanks for sharing, Cat From: Richard To: Cat Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 17:36:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...but I don't think anyone was referring to you at all - I certainly wasn't. If you need to believe you are constantly in our thoughts, go ahead and amuse yourself. A question: Is it true that arti will be sung and darshan held in Amaroo this September or are those just crazy Hindu rituals from the past? A yes or no will suffice. And if you think this is a waste of space . . . Just Walk!

Subject: Re: Thanks for sharing, Cat From: Miaow To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 02:44:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh but I did and no , this year we are having a 'flying pranam ' contest. Contestants get a good 50m run-up and must be able to land belly first, head down screaming 'Where the Hell is Heller!!!' :)

Subject: Funny one, Cat From: Richard To: Miaow Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 06:56:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Flying Pranam Contest - LOL :) Surely you must know, the Great Heller only manifests himself in times of dire need. As the empire of the former Satguru fades into the mists, Heller has withdrawn his awesome powers of Logic. Perhaps even now he is manifesting in Dick Cheney's world to bring justice there or some other place of irrational behavior. It's been lovely chatting with you (your name here). Do enjoy the flying pranam contest and don't forget your crash helmet as you will inevitably need it.

Subject: Amaroo 2002 From: Inside Edition To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 20:57:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Let's go all the way, premies - charnamrit and prashad for everybody, immediately following darshan and arti!

Subject: Besmirch PR's good name? From: AmazeDoc To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 21:29:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: on Forum seven?? Are you completely crazy?? What do you think this is - a stupid Public Relations war? How far detached have you become from reality brother? Is Brittany Spears your ball park recognition yardstick? This is just the point you miss.... Maharaji's good name amongst bitter fearful doubters? Ha fucking ha!

Subject: PR for PR From: Richard To: AmazeDoc Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 22:22:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You have no idea what you are talking about. I am not in the least a bitter or fearful person. Nor are any of the people I know who post here. Why should I be? I've made choices in my life and taken responsibility for all of them. And through that process, I've learned to live a full and loving life. Too bad that can't be said for PR because it takes a brave and honest person to face oneself and accept what one finds. As for my comment about besmirching PR's name, why in the world would a premie/pwsk/student come here and act like a fool? It can do nothing but reflect poorly on the Guru/Master/Teacher/Foundation Leader. Occasionaly a thinking premie does come by for a chat and I respect them for that because open civil conversation can only make us all a bit more informed. As for your dismissing the importance of public relations (aka PR), precisely why was a PR firm retained by M in the first place if PR hadn't become an issue? And it is laughable to think that the crown jewel of the vaunted PR firm's efforts was a puff piece in Leaders. Now the Maharishi on Larry King Live - that was PR. Of course King does ask real questions that could prove too difficult for PR. After all, he isn't even comfortable being asked if he practices K regularly. Yes, that did happen in Philadelphia which was the last Q&A session held. Bitter? Naah. I just tell the truth faster and have more fun per hour. Richard, who only needs one name because he's secure in life and has no need to constantly reinvent himself in hopes of finding a workable identity

Subject: Well said, Rich From: Scott T. To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 08:34:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, who only needs one name because he's secure in life and has no need to constantly reinvent himself in hopes of finding a workable identity Heh.

Subject: Re: Well said, Rich From: FrankDoc To: Scott T. Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 21:21:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tell me Scott 'Of gargantum intellectual importance' Talkalot... When you are alone with Mrs Talkalot, do you take of your face and reveal your mask? Doc - who knows perfectly well that all the masks here are fake.

Subject: Jolly good Richard From: Docofmanynames To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 00:55:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes. I think you have pretty much convinced us all now ;)

Subject: To Docofholyname From: Richard To: Docofmanynames Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 08:36:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent attitude, David. Now simply send along a substantial gift of gratitude and I will know you are sincere. ;) To be clear, I have no investment in being right about anything I say here. Nor do I care whether you or anyone else is persuaded to see things my way. That would make me the same as a certain authoritarian leader which I no longer respect or have use for. I say what I know and others here do likewise. We each then decide for ourselves what is true for us and how to proceed in life. Happy trails, Doc.

Subject: I'll grant you... From: Well MergeDoc To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 21:38:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, you are certainly more polite and gentlemany than many on these boards. But hey, 'DetectorDoc' can still see a slight, if well concealed agression towards your former beloved in your posts and also a slight but well merged contempt for those of us blind dummies still caught in the divine rat-trap. It's all very well for you guys, who are free, to take pot shots at us still enclosed in the fishbowl. But take my example...how can I escape when every time a cheque from my family trust comes through it all gets blown on ten people's tentsites and fine dining bookings at the rock? Twice a year this happens! Is keeping cult members poor one of the ways cult operatives persuade people from escaping? Maybe I need to investigate other cults. Doc - who will knock on Richard's door for comfort if and when he escapes.

Subject: I'm seriously thinking of blocking 'Doc' From: gerry To: Well MergeDoc Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 07:15:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Because 'Doc' is an insincere, lying, abusive game player and a dyed in the wool gurunoid who's only purpose in posting on an ex-premie forum is to disrupt and distract. Bye, bye Cerise, don't let the elephants trample you...

Subject: Gerry, please don't block the Doc! From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 07:31:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He really is much more of a help to us than a hindrance. I mean this. You know I can't stand this guy, but when I think about it, whenever he comes here he reflects his Master Perfectly! I'm serious...think about it... Love, Cynthia

Subject: BBBrrrriiiinnnnGGGG!!! Mr Lying ;) From: WideBoyDoc To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 01:53:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Time to stop dreaming Trailer Tom Now, awake? Ok. You know very well gezza, that you.... Can NOT Block The Doc And considering the truth of that well known reality...think yourself bloody lucky I am being so polite and amenable these days. However, if you are in dire need of some aggression to justify your dark prejudice....I can change to suit your mood ~) Good for Pat, Richard and the others for recognising a perfectly reasonable and polite poster when they see him:)

Subject: I never said you were polite From: Richard To: WideBoyDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 09:00:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I never said you were polite, but did say I saw a bit of self-directed humor which provides a glimmer of humanity lurking within inside. That is the only reason I chose to break my vow of never conversing with ghosts. I should have stuck with that plan because, in the above post, you reveal much of your true 'character' that lies beneath the thin veneer of bliss. Anyone who posts insults and threats, veiled or otherwise, gets no respect from me. You do appear to be the perfect living example of your teacher's priveledged and smug indifference to matters of basic humanity. I'm sure he's very proud of you. You'll be very happy together as the years go on. And best of luck in the upcoming Flying Darshan Contest at Amaroo. You deserve a first place ribbon. ;) Richard, renewing my vow of talking with the birds instead of ghosts because at least the birds make sense

Subject: true 'character' that lies beneath the From: BoreDoc To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 05:43:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: bliss, mask, veil, pretense yea yera yea, that's the standard stock cliche that you guys all come up with whenever a person asserts themselves around here. What are you guys made of, wet tissue paper? And where in heaven's name did you get the idea that bliss and spirited expression are mutually exclusive? Man, you must be one wild and crazy barrel of fun to hang around ;)

Subject: A few points, DR From: Richard To: BoreDoc Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 08:02:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1. There are no 'you guys', 'you lot', 'you people' or any other imagined coalition here. There are many individuals having as many viewpoints. 2. The fact that people react to your apparent lack of willingness to discuss the topic of this forum in depth could perhaps be indicative of how you come across. 3. Other pwks do come here and talk straight about their EXPERIENCE without feeling a need to treat anyone not enthralled with PR as winey losers. 4. Your consistent pattern of one line insults is what lies beneath the thin veil I was referring to. The bliss thing that you reacted to was simply a gentle barb, nothing more. Wet tissue, indeed. 5. Mixing it up and well placed barbs are part of any healthy relationship. If your friends can't trash you, who can? However, friends are those who have established a trust in one another through honesty and civility. I've seen you exhibiting neither. 6. My experience of spirituality is that it includes bliss, compassion, humor, awe, loss, grief, wholeness and wellbeing. 7. In all sincerity, I wish you well in your path with PR/SK. I was there once and made a concious decision that I no longer wished to follow that path as I no longer respected it's leader. Richard, more fun than a Pioneer tent full of a SK students :)

Subject: Re: I never said you were polite From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 10:45:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard, Good post. I have a personal issue with this troll so please excuse anything I write to him here. He and wonder woman over at LG ripped me a new one very recently and I'm having fun with this very strange, right-hand man to the big Boss by being a cyber-stalking, disruptive troll who has personal agya from you know who to do his dirty work here. I have a mission! But not at LG, oh no...not at Life's Most Grating People. It might be here or at Symp, so bear with me please... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Cynthia, I support you From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 14:47:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: so bear with me please... I support you and your right to arm bears. ;) If he's doing this as a mission from PR, they're both way off the mark. As you said, with posters like that, it's obvious where devotion and SK leads. Richard, unbearably polite

Subject: Your kindness is unbearable... From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 11:07:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have bears on the brain. We've got one living VERY close to us with cubs. Plus we've been talking about them to our neighbors and friends. You are so kind, Richard. I still plan to email you soon. Just want to make contact with Brian first. Much Love Cynthia

Subject: Whale of a tail - OT From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 14:29:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We have been watching teary-eyed as our beloved orphaned Orca whale is being returned from waters near us to her pod in Canada. They put her on a jet catamaran yesterday and expect to reunite her with her family soon. You may have seen this story as it's been covered nationally. She had been hanging around our island ferry dock since January and we enjoyed watching her leap about. Her mom died a year ago and it is assumed she got left behind when the pod migrated and she wandered off. She had some health problems that slowed her down but has fully recovered now. While in re-hab, they played songs of her home pod to help her become more familiar with their language patterns. It will be sweet to see her back amongst similar beings. Richard, a fluke of nature but never a breach of trust

Subject: Whale Link - OT From: Richard To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 14:47:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's a link to the story of Springer the orphaned Orca's return home. There's also a link from that page to one about the guy who she's most comfortable with. They call him the Whale Whisperer for his ability to intuit her situation and calm her. Now if we could just find a Terrorist Whisperer to calm down the zealot suicide bombers, we'd have something. Richard, thinking now this probably should be on Symposium Springer the Orca www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/07/14/orca.rescue/index.html

Subject: jekyll & hydedoc From: PatD To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 15:18:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...does seem to have settled down into being one persona of late,so as Richard says below,let him be. I reckon Mr.Roupell is getting damned close to that ghastly Monday morning feeling....the one where you kind of wake up 10 mins before the alarm clock goes off but turn back over.......then it's BRIIIING. Shit,time to wake up.

Subject: Re: jekyll & hydedoc From: gerry To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 16:37:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: I'm seriously thinking of blocking 'Doc' From: Richard To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 08:08:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't recall ever even replying to DR/Doc before now but, eternal optimist that I am, I recognize a spark of self-inflicted humor in his posts above. Flying Pranam Contest and support of low income pwks were spoofs on the ex viewpoint but funny still. That said, his basic MO is smirky drive-by insults in hopes of minimizing the sting of the truth told here. Come on DR, stop sputtering. You know truth is spoken here and no one wears a mask as you suggest. Who is DR/Doc anyway? And Doc, heal thyself before it's too late, too late. Speaking of self-inflicted humor, in my heyday of Servicing the Satguru, the only way my psyche could survive was humor. Example sung to the tune of Dylan's classic: Oh Murahgee, can this really be the end? I'm stuck inside the ashram, with the darshan blues again. Richard, not giving up the day job

Subject: Re: I'm seriously thinking of blocking 'Doc' From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 07:06:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard, I don't agree that Doc is being humorous although I can understand that there could be a glimmer of humor in his posts. Please don't forget that he is a pal of Prem Pal and they have meetings during which they discuss his tactics about how to disrupt the forum. Plus, he has money so he's quite free to do as he pleases. Also, he's been quite abusive to me in particular. I try to not take the bait, but even when I have written sincere stuff on LG he and the new woman-boss over on LG come back full force with vigorous nonsensical, but vile responses. I wish I could be optimistic as you are in many ways, but on this one, I'd love to see him blocked. He truly believes he's superior and knows how to word things to obfuscate issues. Think about it...;) Love, Cynthia

Subject: To Richard: I Recant! From: Cynthia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 07:33:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just been thinking about the 'Doc' and I think he should be allowed to stay. See my posts above about him to Gerry and to him. He's a great example of a cult member.

Subject: Hey Folks, Try Forum 8! From: Cynthia To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 12:09:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's up and running and not as daunting as some might think. Just log-in, choose a user password and play around till you get used to it. It's cool. Give a try and the best part is that Roupell says he'll NEVER go there! HooHoo! Hamzen and Chuck did a lot of tweaking to make it user friendly. And don't worry, you can't break anything... Love, Cynth Forum 8 www.anyboard.net/soc/religion/maharaji/index.html

Subject: Not as much fun for surfing From: Joy To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 14:35:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It took ages to load on my slightly older Mac (a major drag if you want to check in several times a day), and while colorful and cute, I found it kind of confusing to surf the threads. I guess I'm a 'Forum Surfer', I like to pull up the list and just scroll down till something takes my fancy to read (and oftentimes just reading the titles of posts is as good as the posts themselves). That list seemed sort of too busy to make sense of, perhaps it's the size of the type? It's nicer if the posts can just all sit in a nice, logical row like F7. I hope this isn't going to be the wave of the future and it's just for fun? I like this one better, it's more straightforward, sorry to be a party-pooper.

Subject: have to agree From: Livia To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 14:48:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep, I have to agree. I just can't see the problem with the format here - I think it's great just as it it - simple, clear and ungimmicky. It's easy to load up, easy to see what a thread's all about, quick to scroll down and see what's been happening - I just like it here and if it aint broke why fix it? As long as this forum stays intact though, fine! Livia the Luddite

Subject: I think there are many reasons... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 22:42:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...as Chuck mentioned below. One is money. The other is password protection. I agree that it looks different and has a few gliches. I guess I'm just trying to help out Gerry to get people to at least try it a bit before rejecting it completely. :) Cynthia

Subject: Some important considerations... From: Chuck S. To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 11:38:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There are some reasons for considering another forum host. 1.) Hotboards costs money. Monthy bills can often run upwards of $100.00. Anyboards (forum 8 )is absolutey free. 2.) At various times, forum 7 has been disrupted by anonymous trolls, and various persons pretending to be other people. Password protection would be one way of guarding against this, without requiring the FA to be spending so much of his time doing troll control. Anyboards offers other tools as well that make administration easier. 3.) Anyboards allows media files to be included in posts, such as sound an picture files, and allows customizable icons, and many more customisable features, that make it potentially more fun. Now if anyboards has serious flaws, they need to be talked about. If there are ways to make it better, they need to be done. But even if most folks decide they would rather stay with Hotboards because of it's simple design, I would have to say that there are other forum hosts like this one at Voy.com, that are also simple to use, and offer the same features that hotboards does, without the cost. I like the design interface of hotboards too, but there are other forums with similar designs, and one can get used to them very quickly. So I think there are some valid reasons for at least considering other forums.

Subject: that's true From: Dockingout To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 22:06:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and neither will half the experienced surfers of cyberspace bother with it either. The unexperienced will just get lost immediately. Only a blind fool could not help but notice how ugly and cruddy it is compared even to this el cheap notice board. It's like taking someone using a Mac G5 and putting them back on a ZX80. Only the dumbest ass computer user will cheer. But it will serve to enhance the implosion of the ever Shrinking Violet cult of confusion. So in that sense...It's absolutely perfect!

Subject: sooo stylish as usual, yawn (nt) From: hamzen To: Dockingout Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 14:20:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yea, but point well proved eh? From: StyleDoc To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 21:45:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Truth may be unwelcome..... But it still rings true blue, ...even for the blind and foolish!!:)

Subject: New-old Brit press cuts on EPO From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:03:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Little earthly problems for the Divine Guru A collection of British press cuts 1971-72. Guru Ji Superstar, Boy Guru in Cash Probe, Ji Whizz Kid!, Guru, 14, takes all, Guru's flower power, etc

Subject: Have you read these? From: Hey Glen To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 13:12:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gotta make you think, mate. Maybe it is a cult afterall. 'We understand that he is lord.' Come on now lad, suck it up and bale out while you still have some integrity left. We're pullin' for ye down here at the pub.

Subject: Memories are made of this. [nt] From: Neville To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 09:35:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I love the headlines, J-M...:) From: Cynthia To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:25:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jean-Michel, Thanks for putting these up...the articles are quite telling...

Subject: The Troll(s) From: Cynthia To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 12:53:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To all, It appears that the Djuro Troll has obtained another IP. Please don't feed it...it's fruitless and a waste of time. Thanks! Cynthia

Subject: Re: The Troll(s) From: PatD To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 13:56:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: beats me why these people persist.I mean if they want to carry on believing whatever it is they can't put into words,why don't they just go & do it. The whole point of the internet is putting things into words & connecting people with a common background, who otherwise would never meet, & who in our little corner of it might very well have gone through life thinking now & then,'shit, that little fat god fucker I used to be into,maybe I've blown it with the cosmos,maybe he was the Perfect Master after all',& so on & so forth. No,the troll agenda is to confuse free speech & cover up the reality of the man who used to be the Lord of the Universe. The only technology he's never been able to turn to his own advantage.

Subject: Re: The Troll(s) From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 13:04:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia - online simultaneously I see! Thanks for the warning about trolls such as Djuro - I'm sure you're right really but it's so tempting to try and sock it to 'em.. Glad to see you're on great posting form and hope all's well with you otherwise. Good days on this forum, no? Love to you, Livia XX

Subject: Hi Livia... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 14:21:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yup, it's been good here... I know it's tempting to talk to the trolls, but this one in particular is beyond all communication. Usually it just talks to itself, but once it gets a response, forget about it! Love, Cynthia

Subject: Ah, the sweet maidens... From: TrollslayerDoc To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 21:19:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..of love and light. Dancing and enchanting as always, with their grace and goodwill extending to all mankind from their magical secret garden of Eden. It was many moons ago when the flower children of love gathered in Golden Gate Park in late 1967. So young, innocent, open and pure in heart. To those who have held the dream, I salute you with all my being, my unbeing and all that is that. Alas, for some, it has just been A long day's journey into night. :(

Subject: What has Maharaji Done? From: Cynthia To: TrollslayerDoc Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 10:43:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Eugene O'Neill won the Nobel Prize and FOUR Pulitzer Prizes. What has Maharaji done beside receiving the keys to a few cities and sucking money out of premies? Has he publicly achieved anything or won public attention or recognition of anything he's ever done in his life that comes close to O'Neill? I don't think so. O'Neill died on November 27, 1953. Ignoring his instructions, his widow [Carlotta] allowed 'Long Day's Journey Into Night' to be published in 1955 and produced the following year. The New York production, directed by José Quintero with Frederic March and Florence Eldridge as the elder Tyrones, Jason Robards, Jr., as Jamie, and Bradford Dillman as Edmund, brought O'Neill a posthumous Pulitzer Prize, his fourth. In dedicating 'Long Day's Journey Into Night' to Carlotta, O'Neill had thanked her for giving him 'the faith in love that enabled me to face my dead at last and write this play -- write it with deep pity and understanding and forgiveness for all the four haunted Tyrones.' Of course, it was understood that the Tyrones were really the O'Neills, his father, mother, brother, and himself. Having drawn on his own life experiences in somewhat disguised form to write his earlier plays, O'Neill all but dropped the masks in 'Long Day's Journey Into Night.' The few liberties he took with the history of his tormented family only deepened the impact of what he called 'this play of old sorrow, written in tears and blood.' (My emphasis) From PBS review of the play. Thanks for the compliment Doc. Cynthia

Subject: Pointed us to Alladin's Cave From: DreamerDoc To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 21:54:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Then gave us the key to the door. And then showed us where the treasure chest was sitting. And then gave us the combination numbers. Then gave us a suitcase to fill up and take away. And then, after we got back to our home town - he showed us how to go back and do it all again... ...All our dreams come true!!

Subject: Yup, it's a Cave All Right... From: Cynthia To: DreamerDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 07:28:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's the matter with you other than the fact your head's so far up Maharaji's rear-end you can't possibly see the light of day? Don't think for one second that exes here don't see through your games. You have Agya direct from the Feet? I think so... Well, Maharaji will be de-Feeted soon so keep it up...you are a great example of the true nature of your Lord and by posting here and you're a wonderful help to our cause. Truly. Sincerely. Don't forget, exes now out-number you guru worshippers! By all means, please stay here, you're helping us out quite a lot. Thanks for all your help, Doc, keep right on coming back... I'm so grateful to you, it's like, you know, hmmmm, it's like, you know...you can't put this experience of how helpful you are into to words. Gawd, Life is so Great!

Subject: hey DickheaDoc From: gerry To: DreamerDoc Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 08:55:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ask CD why I'm blocked from his forum, please. And get me unblocked or get lost...

Subject: Gee, you must have limited dreams [nt] From: Neville To: DreamerDoc Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 02:31:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Keeping the dream alive From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 11:48:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice take on an smarmy drive-by comment, Cynthia. Much has been said here about the fact that M capitalized on our ideals and passions for world peace. Much love, focus and many resources were brought to the party and squandered by M on his own vanity. It is up to each person to keep alive their own dreams of fulfillment and helping the world to be a better place. It's still a long day and night's journey into day. Richard

Subject: Journey to the End of the Night From: Anthony To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 01:49:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The haunting title of O'Neill's play, A Long Days's Journey into Night, always reminds me of another: Journey to the End of the Night, by Céline, a French anti-war novel of WW1 (the title is taken from the marching song of the Swiss Guards of the French kings). Back in 1979, I wrote a story about Maharaji, and borrowed Céline's title for one of the chapters. I dug it out last night, to take a look. I still find it beautiful, after all these years, and despite all the revelations since. I can't help but reproduce the chapter in question, as it says a lot about the spirit of the day. Chapter Three: Journey to the End of the Night That night children all over the city lay wakefully in their beds, unable to sleep for a wild expectancy which filled them and told them to be ready for something to happen, though none of them knew exactly what this would be. Doors and windows which might have been left unlocked were fast tonight due to the impression on the city that the bird maker had made that afternoon. People had been frightened and mystified by the events and word of them had spread round the whole of the city so that in a very short time everyone was full of them. The city guard was said to be on the look-out for the stranger to answer charges of disturbing the peace, but so far all searches had completely failed to discover any trace of him. In the meantime the city was abuzz with wild rumours of a stranger who brought model birds to life and had threatened to steal all of the children. People who had not been down at the harbour at the time in question laughed at the fears of those who had, and explained the whole affair as trickery by some master magician. But since all the witnesses clung so fiercely to their story, even the sceptics had become uneasy and thought it wise to lock up tight till the morning. The children lay restively awake, starting at every small sound, certain that the moment of destiny had come. A great silence had settled over the city and the watchman’s bell could be heard faintly chiming out midnight. And then the children heard the fluting of a night-bird that drifted like a pale dream over the city and slipped under bedroom doors or through the cracks in window shutters. Then, rising from their beds, the children dressed in their warmest clothes and cloaks, and, finding house doors mysteriously open, went hand in hand through the crystal-lit streets, brothers and sisters each helping the other and joining with friends, so that from all over town, from the richest to the very poorest quarters, groups of children hurried to follow the bird maker’s call which wove over roofs and through alleys and wide streets down to the quay. The moon cast her radiance over the empty market-place, so that it shone like a white deserted ballroom and coated the dark sea which sighed in carress onto the shore, and rippled down masts and rigging of the ships rocking at anchor like cradles. And the waves danced their whispering dance of the night to the stars, and the stars spilled their light to the square. And there, in the centre of the square, a dark figure casting a long dark shadow across the pale marble paving, stood the bird maker, his flute held sideways to his lips by his arms raised like delicate flowers, his long hair flowing from his slightly tilted head, his cloak swaying in the breeze, and resting on one leg with the other gently crooked across it. The music rose from his flute, a long song that might have come from beyond the stars, and it seemed the whole of the night scene, the market-place, the moon and the stars, were dancing to its tune, and the arriving children were the final actors in the scene, and the bird maker stood there moving slightly, like a statue of a god which has come to life. * * * * * When all of the children were gathered in front of him - some hundreds of them, huddled in smaller groups within the group, little boys and girls in warm woollen smocks and dresses and wrapped in warm cloaks, holding fast to each other’s hands, none of them much older than their eleventh or twelfth year - the bird maker ceased his playing, and, gazing at them began to speak. “I am the bird maker who from the clay of this world makes birds to come forth, and I have come to take you on a journey to the end of the night. This night you will leave behind you everything you have owned in this world - to you it is nothing now and will serve only to weight you from flying. “I am the bird maker who makes birds from those who come to him only with love. This night I open to you my world, because without knowing me you have loved me. Who is ready to leave the world he knows to fly with the bird maker?” To the children it was as if they stood within a garden which included the sea and the sky and the market-place, and that he was the choicest of flowers which unconsciously filled the night with the beauty of his fragrance. They stood in silence poised between worlds, with the step between them already beneath their feet, and yet the decision to cross that step had already been made an age ago, as if all the events of their short lives had been only to bring them here, to a moon-lit square where the bird maker stood silently awaiting their reply. No one spoke, and he, knowing the answer of their hearts, turned his back to them, and they saw him raise his flute to his lips and begin to play. And as he did so, to each child the knowledge of how to fly returned like a mystery we have so long been trying to unravel, when the solution slides into our heads so easily the only surprise is that we did not see the answer before. All eyes were fixed on the bird maker’s raven hair and his cloak which swathed him in folds to his feet. His music played the end of time, and without having realized it, though it was no surprise when they did, the children were flying slowly through the air, passing the marble stairway to the water’s edge, and now out to the open sea. A silence embraced the whole of the city, and looking down below them, the children saw the night watch leaning on their spears and slumped against the walls of their harbour fortress, as if a sudden sleep had overcome them. Over the silent ships they flew, which receded all the time in size till they bobbed at anchor like children’s toy boats, and the city itself was a model of dolls’ houses. The last they saw were the crystal lights on the monstrous stone beasts which sat at the ends of the piers to guard the harbour. And what a poet in a city attic writing by crystal light in the watches of the night might have taken for a flock of wild swans passing between himself and the moon was the children flying to the bird maker’s flute. The children looked down and back and saw a small cluster of lights on a faint dark shore and they looked in front of them and above and they saw only the moon and the stars and beyond them only the limitless sky. The children were lost in the immensity of the night. They had taken the final step. They had entered the bird maker’s world. * * * * * On and on they flew, their hair and cloaks streaming freely and they gripped each other’s hands warmly, so that each child knew he flew among brothers and sisters, though each journeyed alone. And ever the bird maker flew at the head, playing his flute, and the music played out as if it belonged here and spread through space to the distant stars, as if its essence was the light that gleamed from them. They flew straight towards the moon, and what the children had been taught was a dead rock was really the white world of the moon goddess. She sat by a spinning wheel on a crystal terrace in her lunar palace, in her silken dress which swathed her to her feet and her silvered hair flowed to her waist. And her radiance streamed out and through her terraces and gardens with their banks of white orchids and blooms and bowers of crystal and moon lakes such as the children had seen only in dreams and journeyed like a white song to the voyagers of the night. She turned her face towards them and they saw she was as comely as a moon beam with features of delicate ivory and she raised her arms like graceful ivory flowers and cried in supplication to the bird maker: “0 bird maker, bird maker why must you wander? Stay with me in my palace of marble by my fountains of crystal and spin moon beams with me!” But he called back to her, saying: “0 Luna, Luna, I cannot stay. I must fly with the children to the end of the night!” And the night formation passed on. To the children it was easy to fly. Indeed, they had flown before. In dreams they had known what it is to be wingèd, and anyone who has loved with unreasoning love the world of which he is part, he too has flown, and the sky reaches down to raise him. And the children had left behind the people they had been, like taking off a suit of dirty clothes to which we have clung so fiercely for so long, and like butterflies which shed their crysalid home, they spread their wings and dissolved in the bliss of flight. And so they came to the white wanderer, the planet of mystery and beauty, twin soul to their own world, and what they had been taught was a dead rock floating in a pool of emptiness was a world of beautiful mysterious people. They lived in a world of green pastures and laughing blue rivers and green woods and flowers of the fields, and here was freedom such as one might know after a lifetime of hardship and tribulation. White dwellings stood in the fields, beautiful, simple, seamless buildings, and the people wandered in groups along the riverbanks in their simple white robes and their faces beamed purity and happiness. And animals and people played together and the flowers and animals and waters spoke to them in love, and music played through everything and was the love that bound them, and the music played from the bird maker’s flute. And the bird maker and the children flew close to them and they laughed and sang and danced to his music. The children and the people embraced one another and they sang with the flowers and the spirits which dwelt in the rocks and springs. The children knew the people - in dreams when leaving their worldly bodies behind they had travelled here and met old friends, and, waking in the morning they had kept but a mere impression of loving reunion which had dissolved into the day. And the people danced round the bird maker and all the animals flocked to him and the flowers craned their heads towards him and the sprites came out of the rocks and springs, and even the blue waters tried to flow towards him. And they all cried out to him: “0 bird maker, bird maker, why must you wander? Stay with us in our valleys of green and weave the white flowers in the garlands of springtime!” But he said to them gently, as if it pained him: “Alas, alas, I may not stay. I must fly with the children to the end of the night!” And after everyone had bid farewell, the night formation sped away again, and after many a backward glance and wave they turned their faces upward through the boundless sky to the next stage of their flight. And so they came to the ringèd planet, and what they had been taught was bands of fire around a burning ball of’ coloured gas was a never-ending spiral of golden wingèd beings which circled round a world in the process of creation. Here was rock and plant and waters filled with a wish to form into order and the seraphim sang the mystery of glorious creation out of nothing but a thought. And the music that filled their lips was that which poured from the bird maker’s flute and he led the children in wheeling flight ever upward through the circling arcs of wingèd kind and he played the creation of lakes and seas and the separation of the elements and the formation of fertile ground from eroded matter, and the laying down of the stuff of life from chemical and water, and plants thrust forth and covered the ground and separated in the miracle of life into a million growing forms, and virgin fern-lined forest clad what had been dead wasteland and ever the life spread in the ecstasy of birth. And the bird maker swept over the land and a million forest flowers lifted their faces to him and he blew form and colour and beauty into them and their scent was like nectar that filled the air and he played birds in many-coloured plumage to drink of that nectar and to soar in rhapsodic flight. And he placed creatures into the seas and made forest-clung mountains to rise from the plains and folded the ground into luscious valleys to nourish kingdoms of animals, and rivers without end wound and meandered in that first morning in paradise, and he set the seraphim to watch over the land until a man might live there. And the seraphim filled the valleys and hills and with the plants and birds and animals called out to the bird maker, saying: “0 bird maker, bird maker, we beg you to stay. Play into us love so that life will always be with us!” And he raised his flute once more and played love into the hearts of every living thing there. And the love that he played flowed back to him, so that he wept and called: “Forgive me, forgive me, but I cannot stay. I must take the children to the end of the night!” Then with a whirl he led the children in spiralling flight and beneath them white cloud formed and blue sky, and the sun turned her gaze to the new creation and sent out to it mother-light and warmth. On and on and up and up the night formation flew, and the bird maker played the death of stars and the transference of life to others. Mid everywhere they flew the golden armies of winged folk would fly to them and implore the bird maker to stay with them on their home stars. And he, unable to refuse any supplication made to him in love, led the children many times in descending flight and they briefly stayed to dance and sing and the boys and girls were treated as wonderful guests and arrayed with garlands of exotic blooms and they journeyed with the wingèd folk around their stars and saw the magic of their worlds. The wingèd ones would sing to the wonder of the thought which had created them, but when the children asked as to what that thought might be, they would only smile and shake their heads and lovingly say: “Ah, that is a secret which is not ours to tell.” Upwards and upward through the limitless night the bird maker led the children until in the distance they saw a golden circle which glowed like the heart of a fire. Nearer and nearer they flew until the golden light surrounded them entirely and in a breathless awe which filled their hearts, the children knew that their journey was at an end. At that moment the bird maker ceased his playing and turned to them and said with great love, so that all they felt was ecstasy: “Little children, we have come to the end of the night.” They stood at the bottom of a golden stairway that led upwards in greater and greater brilliance as far as the eye could see. Clouds swirled at the sides of the stairway, great white banks suffused with golden light, and more shafts of the same light flowed down the staircase to the children. At either side of the golden stairs, and on the clouds, stood wingèd guides, and light flowed from them as though they were part of it. At the top of the stairway was only light endlessly brighter which merged into a core of white so pure as to transform everything which regarded it into its own limitless perfection. The children resonated to the bird maker’s music which was all around them and which merged with the light so there was no longer any distinction between them. They stood on the shoreline of a country so familiar, as though they had crossed a timeless ocean to arrive back at a homeland they had left an age or a moment before. The bird maker looked at them and his eyes seemed to meet those of each boy and girl present as he gently asked: “Are you ready for the final stage of our flight?” Each boy and girl standing silently before the bird maker felt suddenly so vulnerable, as if to this point he or she had felt at least partially in control of their flight. But after this point there was nothing and they had long ceased to have any ability to control their destiny. This was the point where their only help could be the warm comforting hand of a friend and guide. To their ears then came these magic words: “Do you think I could bring you so far only to leave you here? In love you came to me and that love has bound us forever. Those who give themselves .to the bird maker are his forever and he is in them and they are in him.” Then each child knew he had found his friend and guide. Upwards they flew and plunged into that light, and thereafter there was no they, but only the bird maker, and not even the bird maker as they had known him but only light in which each soul gave up the burden of separation and lost itself in a delirium of ecstatic surrender. And drowning into that sea of blissful delivery was only light and love and music playing. And then there was plunging but gentle descent in which the wind whistled past and darkness through which the stars reappeared and shone with the loveliness of flowers awakening in the morning and the slow reforming of each child from being into thought, and the reborn children entered the atmosphere of their world like the first thought that had ever taken place in the universal consciousness. There in front of them lay the shoreline of their country and the waves of their sea, and in the dawning the tones of sea and sky and field and hill emerged as the first colours ever painted in this, the first day of their creation. The children descended like small balls of light and found themselves seated on a hillside looking down onto the city, whose golden roofs reflected the first rays of the rising sun. The children saw the miraculous rebirth of life which takes place every day with the dawn, and they sat this morning by the bird maker’s feet as if it were the first morning in the whole of creation. Washed of all impurity and sitting in perfection the children heard the bird maker say: “Do you know who I am?” And the children replied: “You are the Thread.” The bird maker looked at them and he had become like a king, stern and proud, one whose word is law, and he said so that the words reverberated through them: “Yes, I am the Thread, and nightly I destroy and recreate everything which exists. When I breathe in I destroy the creation and when I breathe out I recreate it from my love. This night which is turning to day I have taken you into my world because you have loved me with unreasoning love. I am the Thread which joins all things and I nurture my creation with love, and I make my people to know me through the vehicle of love. But what do men do in your world? They have forgotten how to love and so the Thread is lost to them. How can they be so proud? Do they not know that their world survives on love alone? Without it what that is living can survive? To forget how to love is a blasphemy to the whole creation. But the Bird Maker is kind. What is the Bird Maker but love? And when he sees that a world is dying for lack of love and that evil is running over the face of it and slaying his creatures then the Bird Maker comes to save that world for the sake of all the love that is left in it.” Now his expression was totally changed and he looked at them so vulnerably and continued: “It is for you that I have come. You come to me because you love me, and I come to you because you are like my heart itself, and I cannot exist without you. You have flown with me on the journey to the end of the night, and this morning a new world opens for you where you shall fly with me forever. I cannot be with you always in person, but to you, my little birds, I give the priceless gift of internal flight. By looking inside yourselves you will always find me, and though you are in this world you will be in my world within it.” And he breathed on them all four times, and with his first breath they saw inside themselves the golden stairway with the endless white light at the top. With his second breath they heard within them the music of the Bird Maker’s flute. With his third breath they felt the Thread destroy then recreate the universe endlessly in his love, and with his fourth breath they smelt and tasted the nectar which the new-born flowers on the ringèd planet had delivered up to the birds. “Look, listen, feel and drink within yourselves and you will know me and there will be no limit to your flight. But for flight to be possible, four things you must never forget: “The first of these is that love powers all flight. Without love, no flight is possible, and with love flight can be endless. Love is a spoken word from which universes come into existence. And truly, a person in love will do anything to attain the object of his love. Therefore, love me as I love you, and I will cross whole universes to come to you. Secondly, as I have illuminated you, go out into this world. and tell others of the world the Bird Maker has opened up to you. Thirdly, it is by the Bird Maker’s grace that you will fly, and therefore, whatever you do in this world, offer it to the Bird Maker. No one else may know that this is your motivation, but the Bird Maker will know it, and he will lower the sky to raise you up. Lastly, fly always, since if you stop, then this world will reach up and hold you down, as it has always tried to do to those who have striven to remember the Thread. Tell to no one of the journey we have taken this night, until the time is right and I release you from your pledge, but do these things for me and take with you my blessings.” In the newly dawned day, as the light from the sun lit the bright blue ocean waves, and the green woods rustled in the gentle sea breeze, the boys and girls looked at the Bird Maker and cried: “We love you, Bird Maker.” The Bird Maker, smiling like a woman at her adoring lover, said: “I love you too.” The children, sitting at the Bird Maker’s feet, knew that this was the answer to the riddle that the wingèd folk had kept from them. It was the thought from which the whole universe had come into existence. “And now farewell,” said the Bird Maker, “but I will come to you soon.” Even as he spoke, the children fell asleep and woke from beautiful dreams each in his own bed in his own home. Clothes and cloaks hung where they had been placed the night before. Anxious parents peeped round bedroom doors, relieved that their children had not been stolen in the night. Through the bedroom shutters the bright daylight streamed in shafts and the sounds of the stirring city could be heard outside. The children, lying snugly beneath warm bedclothes, brothers and sisters holding hands, listened in awe to the start of the first day of the new world.

Subject: Reading at the barricades From: Headcase To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 05:56:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bolly, an appetiser from 'letters to....': ' I should not even attempt to sermonise,yet I do warn you that if you feel capable of going into 'internal exile' and living against the stream,you can expect some dark nights of -all right-the soul.But to undertake this and then to seek external or invisible aid would surely be to miss the point.A degree of solitude and resignation is necessary to begin with.Some people can't bear solitude,let alone the idea that the heavens are empty and that we do not even succeed in troubling their deafness with our bootless cries.To be an exile or outcast on a remote shore-many minds turn away in terror and seek any sort of cosiness.I can only say that,not only when it is compared to the ghastliness of Eternal Paternalism,the concept of loneliness and exile ans self-sufficiency continually bucks me up.(And one might also,when confronted with this unadorned reality,learn to treat one's fellow exiles with more consideration and respect.But let's not ask for the moon.)

Subject: Question, please. From: Anthony To: Headcase Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 02:38:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm probably pretty ignorant, but can you fill me in with a few details on who Christopher H. is, please. He sounds like some guy who writes for one of the newspapers, but maybe that's Peter Hitchens. It all sounds pretty gloomy and angst-ridden.

Subject: Re: Question, please. From: Bolly To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 06:17:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! Easy to confuse the two I do that all the time. Christopher is an acdemic lefty, Peter is a right wing journo and hater of all things remotely liberal. Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Reading at the barricades From: Bolly To: Headcase Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 07:20:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you Headcase, Solitude is an interesting experience, and gives space for reflection and assimiliation on and of lifes ups and downs. The passage deserves more considered attention than I am able to give it while reading and posting in the public library. Are you going to post a paragraph a day to me? This may work in the short term and during phases when my stamina is high. Other times I may have to put my energy into lifting the onion crop and turning the compost heap. This sort of occupation leaves me physically and mentally tired and inclined to the 'bloody book learning' school of thought. This philosophy is a good one, and incorporates great sayings such as ' fine words butter no parsnips' My academic skills have become shoddy with misuse. When I read some of the postings on this site i realise how flabby and forgetfull I have allowed myself to get. Thanks for the extract, love Bolly

Subject: Uh? From: Sir Dave To: Bolly Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 02:27:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's nice and incomprehensible. This place is becoming like my forum. Well, there's always the danger that it might.

Subject: Knowledge, transmission and DVD From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 05:53:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been thinking about the whole process of becoming a premie and what it really entails. Back in 1972 I had this idea that becoming a premie meant to be mysteriously blessed with some sort of 'transmission' or "unlocking" of Knowledge which occurred in the Knowledge session. After that, one was always a premie whether one practised or not - becoming a 'manmat' if one didn't. This 'manmat' idea was reinforced by people (Maharaji? Shri Hans?) saying that it was better never to receive Knowledge at all than to receive it and not practice it. There was also the famous/infamous satsang of Maharaji's about the 'rotting vegetable' syndrome, the idea being that if you didn't practise Knowledge it would rot inside you - eugh! Being an analytical sort of person even back then I remember wondering at what point the actual 'transmission' of Knowledge occurred. Was it through the entire Knowledge session, Maharaji having empowered the mahatmas/initiators/instrutors in some way? Or did something actually occur at a precise moment in the session, such as when the mahatma revealed the light technique, which necessitated a physical contact? I decided it was probably the latter, but kept an open mind. Knowledge is now given by DVD (!!!), necessitating no physical contact at all, thereby blowing my preferred theory out of the water. Physical contact not necessary! However, something presumably must still supposedly occur in the Knowledge session for the aspirant to morph into a premie on that particular day. Is it the fact that the premie does his/her first meditation on that day? The premie could have done it before if they'd tried out the techniques. What makes that premie a premie after the Knowledge session and not before? I think we're now getting to the crux of the matter. There's only one difference between the tecnnique-practising premie before and after the Knowledge session: belief in and acceptance of Maharaji as master. All those hours of listening to/watching videos pre Knowledge session have one prime purpose over and above the one of interesting a person in fulfilling their life. It is to instil the idea of Maharaji being the Master/custodian of the Knowledge. If Maharaji was merely interested in giving people a method of meditation that could give them peace of mind, all those hours of watching graded videos would be unnecessary. It's the package he wants people to embrace, with himself and the worship of himself at the centre of that package. The Knowledge session is the final and essential step on the journey to becoming a fully fledged member of a cult. Without paticipation in the Knowledge session there is no cult membership, period. What premies have in common with each other is the fact that they have participated in a Knowledge session and accept Maharaji as their master. Aspirants have been extremely carefully screened for years to prevent non-believers sneaking through. Maharaji gets his livelihood and narcissistic supplies of devotion and adoration, to which he has become addicted, from cult members only. He needs cult members for his lifestyle to continue. He does not care one iota for these cult members any more than any other narcissist cares for their admirers. Narcissists do what they need to do to keep their suppliers hooked in, nothing more. Maharaji has found he can keep his suppliers hooked in by a number of means such as: 1 constantly changing things such as the name and style of the organisation, or even his own name, as a way of keeping members feeling that things are constantly happening and moving forward. 2 Making regular appearances to keep members feeling that he cares about them and is teaching them something. 3 Keeping up a constant supply of videos of himself for members to watch, ditto. Without all the above, the members may just find they enjoy the meditation without any reference to himself, and he can't afford to allow this. I now see that it's stretching credulity to breaking point to believe that anything at all occurs in a Knowledge session other than it being the passport to cult membership. Having practised 'the Knowledge' both before and after being a lover of Maharaji I can say in all honesty that the experience is identical. Countless other exes report the same thing. I also tried out the techniques before becoming a cult member and had a very powerful experience. It is somewhat shattering to realise that one was duped into a cult, and the recovery process is long and arduous at times, but I'm beginning to get there. I would urge any premie reading this to think very seriously about what they have got themselves into and ask themselves what evidence they really have that Maharaji cares about their development or in fact has anything whatsoever to do with their experience. If you enjoy the meditation, it works perfectly well without him. If you need a master figure in your life to the extent that you can't bear the idea of giving Maharaji up, then I suggest you see a therapist who understands something about transference. As somebody posted below, Maharaji has no interest whatsoever in empowering you, which should be the goal of any teacher, spiritual or otherwise. Maharaji's interest is only in keeping you hooked in to further his ends, not yours. He needs your projection, your focus, your money - he is dependent on it. Think about it. Livia

Subject: Brilliant, Livia From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 09:28:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is an incredible essay on the K process and especially the K-M (SK-PR) connection. I especially appreciate the way you have elegantly laid out your ideas and leave it to the reader to decide for him or her self. Caveat emptor. As far as there being no K without M, that's the same thing we were told back in the 70's. It's the same deal today but no one is told that honestly. They are told it's all about your experience and give a chance, etc. Best of Forum, indeed. And the best to you, Livia. I really enjoy your insights.

Subject: great post! (nt) From: Susan To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 08:51:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Definitely ***BEST*** From: Katie H To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 07:10:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Livia - A friend of mine told me about your post, and some of the things you said mirrored what I felt as a premie so much that I wanted to thank you for your post. I'm sure there are other people who felt what I felt - sometimes it's difficult for me to remember. And I very much appreciate your clear and logical exposition of what makes an aspirant into a premie. When I was a practicing premie, I had what I thought were some really strange (not to mention embarassing) ideas about the 'transmission' during the K session, but you articulated them well - so well that I don't think they are that strange anymore. I believed that Maharaji, through the mahatma, 'put something in my head', or turned on a switch that was turned off, or whatever. I believed this because of the precise quotes that you stated - the rotten vegies, and the idea that it was better to NOT get K than receive it and not practice it (I believe M said this, also several of the mahatamas.) And I really thought this 'transmission' would cause me to go crazy if I stopped practicing knowledge. I was willing to take this risk at the time I received K because of all the supposed benefits that practicing K would give me. Actually, most of these beliefs were floating around somewhere between the conscious and unconscious levels of my brain - but they always were there, and they kept me unhappily involved for a long time after I no longer wanted to be there. (I no longer wanted to be there because the practice of knowledge did not lead up to its billing - at least for me.) So it was a huge risk to reject Maharaji as master, and stop practicing K. I know now that one can drive oneself 'crazy' by dwelling on certain things (like the symbolic rotten vegetables) - thank god that did NOT happen to me, especially since I didn't make any conscious effort to not dwell on those ideas. You are absolutely right that the current method of DVD transmission really blows open the idea that something actual is transmitted during the K session. I don't think I would have had the beliefs I had back then if I'd gotten K via DVD (or at least I hope not! I was pretty gullible back then). And your logical exposition of the whole process in which one becomes a premiem and WHY is very clear, and would have helped me a lot when I was exiting. I could NOT think as clearly as you did when I was a premie. I didn't even get to the point of wondering exactly WHEN the transmission took place - I suppose I felt that it happened after one learned the four techniques or something. So your post really was helpful. Anyway, thanks again, and I DO think your post is a ***BEST***. Take care, Katie

Subject: 8/17/2001: Knowledge, transmission and DVD From: repost To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 10:53:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Posted: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 16:03:24 (EDT) Posted by: swami j. suchabanana Recipient: All Subject: da Twilight Zone: Those who don't learn... Message: Subject: those who don't learn those who don't learn from the lessons [sic mistakes] of history are doomed to repeat them... Welcome to the Twilight Zone: But, hey, man, like that's not fair to bring up the past. this is knowledge lite now. you guys are still stuck in the 1970s and 1980s. marjoe never said he was god or a savior; it's all lies, lies, lies. why do you people keep bringing that stuff up? those quotes must have been made up, too. besides, why can't the hateful exes and rape victims [who are clearly being manipulated by the ex-premies] just get a life and move along, and not disturb our blissful groovy scene? you guys are bringing us down with your blather and yakety yak -- bummer. and, like, you know, everyone around miragey already knows there ain't no sanity clause, anyway, so whatsa big deal, dude?! So, he is a very very 'successful businessman', and he smokes dope and drinks booze. bfd. heck, thousands of premies like to smoke lotsa dope and drink booze and have illicit sex, too. also, what's wrong with having tens of millions of dollars? I mean, maybe he earned that money, or people probably gave it to him -- or maybe they gave it to Elan Vital. this isn't a religion, after all. ok, so it's registered as a church. there are plenty of ministers getting filthy rich -- at least miragey is earning that money. I mean, it must be very difficult flying that complicated plane around, and very trying staying in those hotel suites, and terribly lonely with only a lovely blonde mistress and some servants to keep him company on the road. besides, at the heart of it, maybe by practicing this kn we can all be rich,too, just like him. 'Now the Lincoln owner, he's had money a long, long time. But the Mercedes owner -- the 'practical man.' (Maharaji) Isn't that the perfect example he is setting for us -- that you can have it all - 'that experience' + every luxury and material thing in this world, every drug, as much extramarital sex as you'll ever want, and not even be attached to any of it --- he is so perfect, after all, he is the Master?! that's the beauty of it all. who needs compassion, morality, ethics, empathy for the poor or for the hateful disbelievers? we are special, we are saved, we know something you don't -- that feeling, that gratitude, that synchronization, that participation, that possibility... You guys keep bringing up facts. facts, facts, facts -- whats yer problem? what do facts have to do with 'that experience, 'that experience of feeling', that feeling of 'the heart', that 'thirst', that 'possibility' that only miragey offers and can ever satisfy? I mean, he is the Master. he can put you in touch with your breath, that swing, that simplicity, that possibility of fulfillment, and then you will have the opportunity of gratitude, participation, and synchronization, and perhaps be so lucky as to even receive training in how to tell your own friends and family about it, and how to gradually introduce them to miragey, too. The naturalness the spontaneity, the blissful truth -- not the hateful lies of ex-premies -- those who never experienced this knowledge during the 30 years they practiced it daily, and/or those who don't know what they're talking about r.e. miragey, just because they might have been his financial advisor, or the president of divine light mission [EV], or his chauffeur, or his national coordinator, or his instructors -- they were obviously just in their minds the whole bleepin time -- and totally missed out. what a waste of human potential -- what a bunch of loosers! I mean, like, they obviously never realized this knowledge or who maharaji really is. Like, who is guru maharaj ji? ask, and you will find da answer. Every premie worth their ashram socks or spray-painted holi shirt knows da answer to that question. he is da superior power in person. 'I bow before you', my lord... C'mon, premies, back me up here. As miragey said, this is a 'war.' He needs more canon fodder for this holy war. We all know who miragey really is [wink wink]. he isn't just some meditation teacher -- he is the Master, da Perfect Master, da satguru, da Balyogeshwar, god in human form, the living lord of the universe come to bring about the new millenium - a thousand years of peace. and 'you can't come home without the master'. 'not a leaf stirs' in this whole world that he is not aware of. ok, so he has admitted that he doesn't hear our prayers. big deal. ok, so he doesn't know what happens after death. but, that's no reason not to place our salvation, our lives, our souls in his precious hands, or to completely surrender the reins of our lives at his holy lotus feet. Right? I mean, we are like little children. And miragey is such a father to us all. we are so weak and so small, and he is all-knowing, he is so big, he is so strong, he is the Master, as he has told us so many many many times for so many many many years. the message remains the same. he hasn't changed the message at all. it was mishler's fault, bill patterson's fault,bill wishard's fault, david smith's fault, vijayanand, charanand, mata ji, satpal, bhole ji, sharon stokke, ira woods, joan apter, gary girard, tim gallwey, donner, dettmers, terry yingling's fault, linda gross, david mankoff, eric reinemer, charles glasser, robert jacobs, jean-michel, marolyn's fault, randy prouty, parlokanand, chris cruse, rajeshwar, satyanand, Tiny reinhardt, suzy bai, geof and kim, rich neal, jiva, the anand band, charles cameron, glen whittaker, all the ashram premies, the 100,000 deluded premies who never got it, et al, etc. Always remember -- miragey is perfect. he said so, himself -- so it must be true. he also said that if the master was imperfect he wouldn't be the perfect master. 'We have to find this Word by a teacher, a guide. A guide who is perfect, and who can teach this perfect Knowledge to us. A perfect guide can guide us. You need a burning lamp to light other lamps. So, in the same way you need an enlightened Perfect Master to make you enlightened and perfect also. IF THE MASTER HIMSELF IS NOT PERFECT, HOW CAN HE MAKE YOU PERFECT? YOU NEED A PERFECT Master.'( -Maharaji) So he must know what he is talking about because he is the master -- therefore everything he says or does must be perfect. follow? that's the sheer simple beauty of it -- never leave room for doubt. got it? [PAGE 77: 'WHO IS GURU MAHARAJ JI?'] See, I really gotcha this time, kiddo. no ex-premie doubtmaker logic can contend with the sheer simple beauty of trusting in da perfection and divine wisdom of the Master. ever since that magical transmission of energy at the time of initiation [the shaktipat]; it says so right on pg. 77 of the authorized book, 'Who is Guru Maharaj ji?': 'the initiation is a profound spiritual event in which an indefinable essence, or energy, is transmitted between human beings.' See? that's the key and the proof of the hasty pudding. and only miragey holds the key. see, he was channeling halfway around the world through the instructors. now, he is channeling that same energy through DVD players while smoking cigs backstage, or having sex and drinking cognac in another part of the world. he is omnipotent and omniscient, maybe not in his indivualized form but as his Guru Maharaj ji -- you know, in the 3rd person. See? that essence, that external 'indefinable energy' transmission between human beings can not be defined or explained. you have to feel it, to trust completely in miragey, I mean, 'when Satguru comes... He is perfect, He was perfect, and He will be perfect... A devotee is sitting in America, Guru is sitting in India, but both have a very powerful connection...So, remember. We have to find that God, that person who is perfect... So, remember: we are part of Him who has manifested Himself as a Guru and who has come into this earth, and now we have to be One with Him. We have to completely merge and make our souls one with Him because He is perfect, and once we merge with Him we will also be perfect.' - miragey See, you guys are just totally confused, in yer minds, and missing out! you and Way, and Deborah, and that swami banana, et al. see? this whole thing is 'indefinable'. without trust, without being that humble 'servant', without dedicating your mind and the reins of your life, without that synchronization and participation -- how could you possibly understand? this knowledge can not be understood, anyway. so, your attempts to explain it, your doubts, your questions will all be answered if you just become like a trusting little child -- and trust 100% in the word of the Master -- his word is always straight. As he has told us so many many times: 'No cheat, no deceit.' [Rod Serling: You have just been to a place where time and space stand still, where there is never room for doubt, worries, regrets, only the bliss and peace of that feeling, that understanding, that knowledge, that experience, that darshan, that divine lila of god in human form -- the Perfect Master, whose every infallible word and action are like divine dewdrops of nectar.] Yes, this internet is his divine play -- His lila, his sport. that's why he wanted all the premies to go on the internet and check out the websites in the first place, see the rotten ex-vegetables, and come to his own site for the truth [and for some milk and cookies] - the truth which only he knows, which only he reveals, which only he understands -- in da Twilight Zone.] Hope this finally makes everything 'perfectly clear'. but even then, You guys probably just don't get it.] --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Do all those raps sound familiar? they don't call that 'incultcation', for nuttin! jai suchabanana. bolie shri ratrugudev maharaj ki jai! Peace and lentils, hohohohohohohohohohohohoho

Subject: ***BEST*** From: Loaf To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 18:22:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a fab post. Cogent is a good word for it ! I was just musing to myself that we all share something. A sort of 'hole' in the back of our minds. Normally this hole is filled with fears, doubts and uncertainties, faith and hope... but my hole has been filled with feelings. These feelings appear to be of love, of bliss and of security, but in actual fact I think there is a lot of smugness. I think a lot of premies actually emotionally disconnected from everyday life and moved into their safe hole, from which the outside is clearly a strange land, and the 'inside' becomes homely, wallpapered with reassuring feelings and an identity supported by other 'hole dwellers'. The Presence of this hole, which is a non logical, non-rational space sigificantly alters the way that most of us see life. Its a Right hemisphere intuitional dreamy type of place, but one which has been hi-jacked by the corporate Maharaji, so that our subjective, personal most private and fluid space appears to be his personal private domain. And because we know no better, we happily construct a throne for our mock-father to sit on, and thus make ourselves immune from our real parents (or so we think). This immunity from life is nothing other than denial. Maharaji has, as I said somewhere else most eleoquently ..'taken love and gratitude out of the social 'loop' and called it 'divine' No bad thing in itself.. after all if our responses to life are NOT divine, then where else might divinity be found ? this appears to be a great gift. To empower people by showing them/reminding them that their feelings matter and that their relationship with life is in the realm of the divine. However my relationship with everyday objects was damaged by this. Nothing BUT the officially 'divine' mattered. My relationship with my bowl and my rice was blurred by my gratitude to an invisible 'giver'. My relationship with my friends was neglected and not invested in, because they didnt really matter to me. My parents were used and walked past as if they were strangers. All particularly adolescent behaviour, but all undertaken because my best interests, my loyalty and my future seemed to be invested in my hole. What has been interesting in re-emerging from my hole to find that the way I feel about my friends MATTERS (for good or ill) that my response to my home Matters, that all sorts of things which I had neglected or thought irrelevant actually MATTER to me. My thoughts, my dreams, other peoples dreams and also my feelings matter. not the great all encompassing 'feeling' of the security Hole, but individual and articulate responses to ctiny objects, colours, people, moods, environments and possibilities. it seems that maharaji made me consume one flavour of life It is astonishing how the physical manifestation of the social structure (the money syphon and gratitude milking, the constant fund raising and his NEED for free toys) mirrors the internal relationship that Premies are put into with their 'inner maharaji' who replaces their 'self'. Because the inner relationship which he establishes is infantile and blissful and re-assuring, we never see it as a bad thing ! How could I stand back from it ? There was no way to be objective about a 'feeling' cos he forbade all analysis and provided no structure or thought for people to actually understand what was going on! I like the image of the ashrams as sweatshops.. producing vast sums of money for M and his family, but lets not forget the sci-fi reality that we were all hypnotising ourselves at the same time ! Knowledge is exactly what he said it wasnt.. a painkiller. But it also takes people into that subjective region of their own self where they have NO defense against suggestion. The techniques without the context are still restful and calming and blissful... just like a hypnotist counting a person backwards.. 10 this world is scary 9 there is nowhere for me in this world 8 the only safe place is within me 7 you can help me get there 6 God is within me 5 you have shown me God 4 this is the source of all joy 3 I owe you everything 2 you will take care of me 1 you are my everything After that short journey it isnt such a big deal to buy him a plane is it ?

Subject: Nice one, Loaf From: Richard To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 09:18:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very well said. I enjoyed the hole in the back of the head metaphor and especially love the count down from 10 hypnosis. After that short journey it isnt such a big deal to buy him a plane is it ? Big LOL! Richard, counting forward and waking up - F1, F2, F3, F4, F5, F6, F7, F8

Subject: Loaf's Post: ***BEST*** From: Livia To: Loaf Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 15:23:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Loaf, Thanks for your kind remarks about my outpouring of the other day - don't know quite what got into me that morning - I'd been musing and it all came out, as it does sometimes here. Just want to say here that I think your post above is just brilliant, and gives a lot of food for thought - may elaborate in the next few days (help!!!) It was your remarks about smugness...set me thinking; something's coming clear...and not before time. You put things so clearly and succinctly - I know you're a writer, and it shows - in the best possible way. The medium can sometimes truly intensify the message, and the way you write sends me into a space of total clarity - wonderful. Think I must read your post again - and to anyone reading this, if you haven't read Loaf's post above - read it! Love to you, Loaf Livia

Subject: Re: ***BEST*** From: Bolly To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 06:24:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf and Livia have put into words so eloquently what I have experienced. I hope those considering thier alegiance to the guru will linger over these posts. We all know what they're talking about. Love Bolly

Subject: Thanks to Loaf & Livia From: Brian Smith To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 22:38:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The clear realizations articulated by you both is what keeps me as an ex-premie coming back here time and time again for inspiration, understanding and healing. Your posts are acknowledgement of the work we need to engage in to clear our hearts and minds of the trappings of so many years of cult indoctrination and guru/master personality worship. I was thinking just today that DLM, Maharaji, Prem Rawat was then in 72 and now in 02 everything it said it wasn't. It is nothing more than just another religion, worse yet; a religion that pretends like it is not one. I look back over the years and how I expressed such a reverence for this man whom I regarded as an embodiment of the lord of the universe an attitude that was cultured and re-inforced both by my peers and m himself. It was worship ..... nothing less and undeserved at that, and Prem Rawat never came forward and addressed it as such, got off it and truly cleared the air. At best he skirted the issue with a wink and a nod, while sidestepping and sliding into another more palatable form of the original premise of LOTU. It is a Racket that he has run far too long, and he owes an apology and an explanation to us. Yes he does! I don't think it will ever happen, but the least prem rawat could do would be to set the record straight for those like myself who once bought the pretense that he was some sort of divinity/master incarnate. This is what had me and many others like myself hooked into many years of idoltry and illusion. Delusion which among other things caused division from my family and friends, the truly most important relationships in my life. At any rate, it is revelations in posts like yours and Livia's that cast the light of truth on these matters for now in the absence of rawats admission of culpability. Thanks for your incredibly healthy and clear insights

Subject: Two ***BEST*** of Forum (nt) From: Vicki To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 20:59:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Knowledge, transmission and DVD From: The Falcon To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 10:23:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You have surpassed yourself with this post, Livia. Well done! At core it is all about guru-worship and nothing else!

Subject: 'Guru Worship' From: Vicki To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 20:57:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Absolutely right to point! Only for me, it was never about Maharaji being a guru, it was always about Maharaji being the Lord incarnate, this time 'round playing it out as a guru. I paid my twenty bucks and got my special word to meditate on from the Transcendental Meditation organization before I heard about Maharaji. I wasn't looking for a guru and never gave the Maharishi guy second notice. No one demanded devotion for him and no one told me he was the lord of the universe. I walked away with never a glance back. This game that Maharaji played with our lives was a bit different. It was definitely all about worshipping him, as the Perfect Master, Living Master, Lord incarnate, etc etc etc. I wish I could have seen him as simply a guru. Would have saved me lots of years, money, and heartache for not only myself, but my family.

Subject: Re: 'Guru Worship' From: Cynthia To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 07:58:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, Everything you said rings true for me. It was about worship. Not respect for a teacher or guru, or even high esteem, but the lord incarnate, bowing down, heartbreaking worship.

Subject: Re: Knowledge, transmission and DVD From: Neville To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 09:59:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Knowledge by DVD? Well, that buggers up any spurious correlations between knowledge and the Biblical 'laying on of hands'. Neville

Subject: Re: Knowledge, transmission and DVD From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 08:50:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, Good post. I like to simplify it in one word CULT. When looking back at the time I got sucked in (and it was sucked) it was very early on in my contact with premies. I'd had a difficult life, I wasn't looking for a guru nor meditation, but I was looking for a panacea to life's problems. I must have been in synch with the vibes I felt at my first couple of satsangs. Even with the DVD thing and the videos Maharaji keeps saying that an experience can be attained by watching and listening. It's less effective than real live premies with glistening eyes projecting an ''I have something you don't have'' attitude. There's also an attitude in premies of ''You can't get it anywhere else.'' But now that I know it's a cult I was into and having read so much about other cults, it's quite easy to see the con involved. I don't think premies were aware of the con back in 1975 when I arrived on the scene, but it's always been a con. All the that 'rotting veggie' stuff was part of m's con. He does that quite well if someone's been sucked into the mindfuck. I still promote the book Snapping by Flo Conway. This book describes how people snap into and out of a cult. It also describes in depth the various groups, including M's. There isn't really a transmission except long periods of indoctrination with a promise. And there certainly are stages, the beginners, the intermediates, and the full-blown initiates who are true believers. That's why I believe that when someone is in process of getting sucked into any cult it's the process of giving up freedom of thought and freedom of will. Once freedom of thought's been given up (for me) it is sudden and complete. No questions, only rationalizations--especially when the cult is a personality worship one like ours was/is. The only extent I take responsibility for the taking over of my freedom of thought is the point at which I gave it up.

Subject: Re: Knowledge, transmission and DVD From: Livia To: Djuro Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 11:34:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, Djuro, I know it's painful and all that, but the fact is and will remain - you are in a cult. Your inability to see it or accept it is all part of the cult conditioning you have been subjected to/accepted. No cult members are aware they are in a cult. No one wants to join a cult. People such as ourselves join cults unwittingly, believing that what we have found is unique and true. A true spiritual teacher attempts to enable his followers to attain the same level as himself. The leader of a cult always keeps his followers entrapped in a cycle wherein they are constantly urged to find new recruits. Maharaji calls this 'propagation'. This cycle also disempowers the followers in that they are never enabled to have the exact experience the cult leader has, or pretends to have. Maharaji has no power to enable anyone's experience in meditation or otherwise. This is all in premies' imagination. The vast majority of so-called spiritual leaders are conmen or charlatans and Maharaji is no exception. The premies are blinded from seeing this because they believe so intensely that he is something special. They rationalise everything he does, from his tacit condoning of sexual abuse, to his womanising, to his extortinate material tastes and demands. He has grown into someone who behaves like a spoilt, overindulged pop star and the premies are too enamoured with him to be able even to glimpse the truth. He cares only for the super-rich premies who continue to support him in the style to which he has become accustomed. The rest quickly become redundant when he tires of them. He teaches a meditation technique that works exactly the same with or without him, and uses it as a hook with which to reel people into his cult, which is actually a personality cult. What he appears to be on stage bears no resemblance to the person behind the scenes, any more than the stage persona of a pop star resembles the private reality. On stage he is empowered by the love and longing of the premies, without whom he would be nothing and no one. Many of the premies have personality problems especially those of needing a parental figure to project onto. The writing is on the wall, Djuro, but you are too blinded to be able to read it. Livia PS By the way, how about elaborating why you think I'm wrong? Just saying "you're wrong" without any explanation doesn't really cut it in my book, I'm afraid. You'll have to do better than that.

Subject: do tell...... From: The Falcon To: Djuro Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 10:33:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: in what way and who, Livia? Cynthia? I am genuinely interested in your perspective so please elaborate.

Subject: Don't feed the Trolls please;) From: Cynthia To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 12:44:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Djuro is a banned troll who's been disrupting this forum for years. It sneaked back in, but it'll blocked very soon. It's a futile effort to try to communicate with this particular character, and unwise IMO to encourage it...

Subject: To Noise From: Livia To: Noise Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:31:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I expect you're Quiet, judging by the weird spelling of weight. You never said who or what you're really about - now you're apparently hanging in happily with all the premies over at LG. There's only one word for you - pathetic. Livia

Subject: We're in synch, Livia... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:39:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Online together again! I wish I could meet you in person... Don't worry about insults to me. Pat Conlon taught me very much about thick skin. These thick heads are no worry for me:) Love, Cynthia

Subject: We're in synch, Cynthia From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:48:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi again Cynthia! I wish I could meet you too - I often wonder what you're like in person... Don't worry - I can see you weren't at all phased by Noise/Quiet/whoever. Hmmm - increased troll activity lately - I wonder why? They must be getting bored. Do you ever get over to England? Lots of love, Livia

Subject: Re: We're in synch, Cynthia From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:55:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ever get to England? I hardly get to Connecticut! That's why my phone bill is so high. My entire family is in Connecticut and even though we all have online computers, we still gab for hours on the phone. In person, I can't describe myself, but exes with whom I've spoken over the phone have said my voice is quite different than my posts. I'm not harsh at all, actually quite gentle...with an edge.

Subject: Re: We're in synch, Cynthia From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 10:10:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, that's a shame. I never get to the USA either, although I'd love to find some way of meeting all you guys! Sometimes the feeling on this forum is amazing, isn't it - the empathy and shared experience becomes a vibrant almost living thing. I love it. I didn't imagine you as being at all harsh, because your compassion always shines through - you never miss an opportunity to show compassion when it's needed, and I really admire you for that. Much love to you, Livia XX

Subject: Thanks, Livia... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 12:11:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi again, Thanks for your compliments...I sometimes don't know how I come across, but I am always open to feed-back...

Subject: Everyone! Notice how the Trolls... From: Cynthia To: Noise Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:17:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...suddenly forget how to spell when they come back to strike! HaHaHaHaHa! HoHoHoHoHo! HeHeHeHeHe! That one made my day...not just an ugly face--HooHoo:p I feel pretty, oh so pretty, I feel pretty and witty and bright....

Subject: CERISE! I warned you... From: Andrea E. To: Noise Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 01:45:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was very naughty, what you said to that unfortunate ex-student Cynthia person. Remember our little talk? Some of these confused ex-students think you are really David Roupell, pretending to be Cerise, a teenage child of premie parents, and we don't want them to think that, do we? David NEVER posts anonymously, or pretends to be other people. You must stop making trouble for him. I would like to assure all you horrible ex-students that David doesn't post this nasty stuff, it's just the silly childish pranks of a teenage girl, I know her parents, it's all harmless. Really! It's just dear little "Cerise", she is NOT David, she is just as real as myself or Catweasel. Here is a Photo of Dear Cerise as proof positive.

Subject: Love it... [nt] From: Neville To: Andrea E. Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 09:32:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: CERISE! I warned you... From: D.Votey To: Andrea E. Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 06:33:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a mischevious little thing and so pretty, her parents must be real proud. Love D.

Subject: Oopsy, wrong photo... From: Andrea E. To: Andrea E. Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 02:04:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... that was her before she put on her makeup! HERE is the correct photo. Such a nice girl (with just a slight stubble problem). A little bit of makup can make such a difference! Andrea E. :) Always willing to help with not filtering out the good. +)

Subject: she is-the trips keep falling away From: janet To: Noise Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 00:15:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and when that weight is lifted, you wouldnt beleive how light you feel, and how fast. its a diet i competely endorse. go on it yourself. the crap thats been laid on you will just fall off in chunks. theres a wonderfully free and unencumbered you waiting underneath all those layers of lies. hang around here. it gets you started.

Subject: I like this man/god M From: V To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 02:52:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You have to respect this suber being, I mean , how many other people do u know that can empty ur bank account, just like a leach empties blood? He grows fat and prospers, has a normal family life and indulges the women, its a shame his blind, brain washed followers do not have the same privalage. A house in Malibu, a jet, a boat ( all be it a small $7000000 one), a fat bank account, kids, ashrams, property, masses to lick his feet ( and god knows what else).....u know this guy has it all. I respect him because he is capable of making chaudus out of millions of people, u got to hand it to him, he does it well. Long may he live, grow fat and hopefully go to hell!

Subject: Re: I like this man/god M From: Neville To: V Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 10:03:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I intend to be around to see Maharaji reduced to a lonely, isolated wreck without serious numbers of disciples. Then I'm gonna laugh loud. I'll kick him when he's down. Why the hell not? Neville the Vengeful

Subject: Re: I like this man/god M From: reflection To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 19:06:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: anger takes you away from your self........you dont have to follow mj if you dont like him, but work out that anger....anger takes you to an empty road

Subject: Yes, Massa... From: Cynthia To: reflection Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:46:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks you for that inspired advice. And Prem Rawat is the LORD! HAhaHA--you're in a cult, you're in a cult, boy. Anger is a healthy emotion which is discouraged by western culture. As Neville said below, it's only dangerous or unhealthy when it becomes obsessive or injurious to the angry. I don't know why I'm talking to my reflection, I already know this. Zing!

Subject: Anger From: Neville To: reflection Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 01:55:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bollocks. There's such a thing a righteous anger, and healthy anger. Some things deserve anger. Anger doesn't do you harm unless it becomes obsessive/ pathological. People who can't let their feelings flow may well have the bigger problem. Neville the expressive

Subject: Me too, Neville From: Inside Edition To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 15:57:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neville, I know just what you mean. The Wheel of Karma must surely turn for Ratwat too. Yeah, he may always have a super-devoted few, but the writing is on the wall. The money is drying up, Elan Vital has been dismantled, people are walking away in droves, 'programs' have to now be super-secret and security-crazy (just imagine the ultra-security-apparatus that must surround the lord of the universe today!). After all of the bullshit and the lies for all of those years, it's about time! Keep up the good fight, Neville!