Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum I Archive # 2 | |
From: May 3, 1997 |
To: May 7, 1997 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 12:49:28 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Everyone Subject: White Light Message: Despite what some current cult members might say about this site being a black hole this site offers information about Maharaj Ji and his cult that is not available elsewhere, especially in these days when Maharaj Ji's organization is trying to hide that information. Anyone interested should certainly check it out before getting involved with Mahrarj Ji's organization. Make up your own mind using input from people who have actually seen what he is about, and have views both pro and con. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 13:06:51 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: JW Subject: Re: White Light Message: Which views are pro? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 13:21:31 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: White Light Message: Which views are pro? Well, I thought yours were intended to be, but I actually think they likely have the opposite effect now that I think about it. Also, why don't they have open discussion like this on the premie page? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 13:37:55 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Everyone Subject: Re: White Light Message: I'm reading The Guru Papers and I just have to share this short quote because for months I've been trying to articulate the very same but for some reason I couldn't. 'Gurus can arouse internse emotions as there is extraordinary
passion in surrendering to what one perceives as a living God.
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Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 14:05:28 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: White Light Message: Yes, very spot on. I have another item to address from the Guru Papers which I will do when I have more time. Did you read my post responding to your request regarding David Smith under your what you are looking for thread? Does any of it resonate at all? Frankly, I still hold GMJ responsible for setting up the system where that kind of abuse was possible by sick people and also because GMJ kept such a hands off approach to his devotees, such that he would rather not know anything about them. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 15:31:09 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: White Light Message: I'm reading The Guru Papers and I just have to share this short quote because for months I've been trying to articulate the very same but for some reason I couldn't. 'Gurus can arouse internse emotions as there is extraordinary passion in surrendering to what one perceives as a living God.' Is that pro or con? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 16:16:09 (EDT)
Poster: Deena to JW Email: To: JW Subject: Re: White Light Message: JW- I just read your post about S.S. oh I mean D.S. My god you must have wondered why I never responded. If you hadn't told me it was there I wouldn't have known 'cause somehow I missed it???? It literally made me feel ill. I mean I had him in my home, I washed his underwear for god's sake! I felt livid realizing I was just like Hitler's secretary in being naive to what he'd done in his past. This morning I asked Jim to give me back David's phone number ( I had destroyed it) 'cause I thought I'd call and get PR answers to some of our questions. Now I don't know if I can. I understand your hatred for the man. God! I'm floored once more. And to think MJ handpicked him to be one of the few instructors left to represent him? I destroyed a photo of David I had of his visit here ( cuddling with one of my cats) I felt I didn't want it around but I certainly didn't have the aversion I would have had if I knew what he had done. Obviously MJ raked him good over the coals and the new smiley face version was not heavy at all. Stiff and fairly self-righteous but I only saw his devotion at the time. Well JW, thanks for sharing that...I ended up blurting stuff out to my husband and we had one of our discussions. Each time it is calmer and less a personal thing. But still he stands firm on the party line of you can't blame MJ for all that crazy stuff. OH YES I CAN! And I went on to give my reasons. But like premies here he still attributes his 'experience' to MJ. At the end we agreed to continue another time because we are suppose to be working. Anywhoo...thanks JW. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 12:15:36 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Everyone Subject: Kurt's e-mail address Message: Could someone please post Kurt's e-mail address on the forum again because I've tried to find it and I can't. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 12:21:06 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Kurt's e-mail address Message: Kurt Anderson's e-mail address: KBA@aol.com Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 12:43:07 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Kurt's e-mail address Message: Kurt Anderson's e-mail address: KBA@aol.com Thank you muchly JW. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 12:02:11 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Everyone Subject: Black Hole Message: This website is like a black hole. It has a kind of morbid attraction, and there are hole diggers at work. The hardest digging ones can't get out of the hole they've dug anymore, but they are dying for company. Beware! This website is a home for
hate-mongers and dropouts. This website does not foster
understanding, but instead it fosters MIS-understanding and
malice. Enjoy!
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Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 15:47:25 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Black Hole Message: Geez, Mili, I'd never really looked at it like that before. Thanks again. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 11:40:58 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: Why OP keeps apologizing Message: I know! I know! Teacher: Okay, Jimmy, why do YOU think OP always apologizes? Jim: Because her position's absolutely untenable! She wants respect for being a straight-shooter and not avoiding points and issues but she can't possibly defend Maharaji on every front. She tries to skate by with a few New Age cliches and us hardened cyncis here constantly call her on that. So she apologizes. What else can she do? Teacher: But what exactly does she SAY when she apologizes? Jim: Nothing! That's the whole point. She can't apologize with substance because then she'd have to give up some part of her inconsistent position. She's not prepared to do that, so she just apologizes superficially. 'Sorry, I wasn't thinking...' That kind of stuff. If you ask her then what she really meant, she gets all backed up in a corner again, says some more New Age shit and then, if you have the time and interest in chasing her down, she'll apologize for that too! On the other hand, she'll call you a bunch of names in the meantime. Teacher: Really? Now why would a nice girl like OP do something like that? Jim: Becuase she's only half-committed to honesty here. She thinks that being a 'trickster', after all, is where the real action is. She smiles but, until I see some REAL proof on her part, I just can't trust her, 'sweet nothings' notwithstanding. Teacher: Well you're being a little left-brained about all this, aren't you Poindexter? Jim: Yeah? Well fuck you too! Teacher: Jim Heller! What did you say? Jim: Oh nothing, just mumbling. But really, why come down on me just because I'm trying to deal with things? Teacher: Okay, I see. But you're so hard on her aren't you? Jim: Hey, read all her posts and then tell me that. Teacher (after reading all OP's correspondence): Yes, Jim. I see what you mean. I guess I owe you a bit of an apology myself. She really is running in circles isn't she? Jim: Look, you tihnk she's bad? Most of these premies are just like Heaven's Gaters. Hey, you're great, this class is wonderful, but I gotta go. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 11:46:02 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Why OP keeps apologizing Message: This is one dropout who plans to stay out of class FOREVER! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 11:48:07 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Why OP keeps apologizing Message: Nope. We're more like Hare Krishnas. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 11:51:17 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Why OP keeps apologizing Message: Well, I asked OP before whether she considers her participation in this site a service to Guru Maharaj Ji and I think her silence is telling. I think OP sees it as her service to Guru Maharaj Ji to hang in here and do the best she can to defend him. It's not so much whether she can form any sort of logical or effective argument, it's more the experience of the grace of effort one gets in service and just maybe she can keep GMJ's team in play as well. Or, maybe she has just grown to like us all a lot, especially you Jim. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 13:05:26 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Why OP keeps apologizing Message: Jim, why do you hate premies and New Age so much? Without us, you'd be nothing. Who would you be able to scorn, hate and ridicule if it weren't for us? So, you NEED us. Actually, you hate us because we remind you of something in yourself that still exists and that you hate. Like I once said, you still base your life on MJ - only before you were loving him, and now you hate him. Can't let go. You live for these posts.
Look, the difference between people like you and Anon, on the one
hand, and MJ on the other, is that you are offering NOTHING. You
sulk, you criticize, you insult, you deniggrate. So, give me one
good reason why I shouldn't watch the next video! It's fun, it's
uplifting, it's eye opening! And you, dear chaps, are such a drag.
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Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 15:33:52 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Why OP keeps apologizing Message: Yes, you're absolutely right. I hadn't thought of that. Thanks a lot. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 16:13:48 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Why OP keeps apologizing Message: Jim, tell me, SERIOUSLY, do you really think that Divine Light Mission (or whatever it is called today) is ANYTHING at all like Heaven's Gate? C'mon, be honest. You can do it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 23:17:54 (EDT)
Poster: Nigel Email: To: Everyone Subject: Mahatma Dr. John Horton Message: Hello people. I just wanted to ask if anyone knows whatever happened to Dr. John Horton who was an initiator? Does anyone know if he is still into MJ or not? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 01:01:33 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Nigel Subject: Re: Mahatma Dr. John Horton Message: what's your great interest in Premies from The Past? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 05:58:29 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: op Subject: Re: Mahatma Dr. John Horton Message: Relax, op... He's probably just a bill collector... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 11:17:47 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: op Subject: Re: Mahatma Dr. John Horton Message: what's your great interest in Premies from The Past? Is that a rock group? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 11:43:55 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Nigel Subject: Re: Mahatma Dr. John Horton Message: I have no idea where Dr. John is now. He reminded me of a cross between George Segal and Perry Como. I felt a lot of personal compassion from Horton, and I think he was a decent person. But I always got the impression that he really wanted to be a guru himself, rather than someone following a guru. Maybe he has his own cult now? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 23:14:16 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Everyone Subject: Questions to Ask Message: The following is some info I received from INFO-CULT- Resource Centre on Cultic Thinking 5655 Park Avenue Suite 208 Montreal, Quebec H2V 4H2 Tel: (514) 274-2333 Questions to Ask If you are approached by someone who invites you to participate in a meeting, program, event, etc. the following questions may help and prevent you from being recruited by a cult. These questions work best when asked in a very direct and friendly (the word friendly is underlined but I don't know how to do that) manner. Be alert to vaque responses or a response that 'all your questions will be answered at a later time.' *How long have you been involved? Are you trying to recruit me into any type of organization? *What is the officia name of your organization and does it go under any other names? If so, what are they? *What are your group's beliefs? *Are members allowed to lie in certain situations? *What are members expected to do once they join? *Do I have to quit school or work, donate money and property and/or cut myself off from family and friends who are not in agreement with my being a member? *Is your group considered to be controversial by anyone? If so, what are the main criticisms? * How do you feel about former members of your group? Does your group allow communication with them and if not, why? *Do you know any people who have left your organization? If so, have you ever spoken to them and found out why they left? *What are the things you like least about the group? Never give your name and address to someone that you suspect might be involved in a cult. If the person is a member of a cult you may ask yourself, 'have they replied to my questions honestly?' If you discover at a later date that they have deceived you, then you should have very serious questions about getting further involved. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 23:26:34 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Questions to Ask Message: You forgot this one: *Is your group headed by a short, obese, alcoholic, Indian megalomaniac with greasy hair, $5000 suits, his own private fleet of aircraft, residences all over the world, several Rolls Royces, and who used to be the Lord of the Universe, but isn't anymore? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 00:30:07 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Questions to Ask Message: How 'bout *Is your group headed by someone who hides the fact that he was once called GURU and now he prefers to be called Maharaji....Isn't GURU more appropriate since that is what he does in India with devotees there. My favorite is the bit about not leaving your phone number etc. dah...and how 'bout how my calls to those once so eager to return them are now ignored, does that remind you of a part in these questions? Did you see CNN? The level of committment and rationalization reminded me of premies on this forum. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 08:47:43 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Everyone Subject: Re: Questions to Ask Message: Here is some more stuff I received from INFO-CULT: CULTIC THINKING Cultic thinking is a way of conceptualizing reality and society by dividing them in two monolithic blocks ( black/white, saved/damned, good/evil ). Within this framework there is no room for gray areas. Individuals and movements with this kind of thinking automatically classify themselves in the category of the pure and the saved. Subsequently, they look for scapegoats in order to explain problems experienced by them or by society. Cultic thinking can lead to intolerance and extremism, and is particularly prevalent in times of personal, social or economic crisis. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 20:12:23 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Everyone Subject: Again... Message: A while back I spoke of thePrimetime Live that had a show about a man who 22 years ago joined Heaven's Gate with his wife and proceeded to leave behind their daughter in the process. He leftthe cult a while later and she remained to be one of the 39 that killed themselves recently. He expressed regret in that interview. Regret that he hadn't had the devotion to leave his vehicle as well. Despite all the media attempts to educate about cults since the tragedy, once more he chose to trust his leader and leave behind his daughter for one last time. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 21:34:24 (EDT)
Poster: op - please read this one Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Again... Message: Read on: By DANA CALVO .c The Associated Press ENCINITAS, Calif. (May 6) - A former Heaven's Gate member was found dead and another was found unconscious Tuesday in a hotel room in what appeared to be an attempt to imitate the cult's mass suicide. Sheriff's deputies found the body of Wayne Cooke of Las Vegas and an unconscious Chuck Humphrey of Denver after receiving a call from CBS reporter Lesley Stahl, who had spoken with Cooke's daughter, police said. Found near both men were purple shrouds similar to those on the bodies of 39 Heaven's Gate members discovered March 26 at a rented Rancho Santa Fe mansion just four miles away, said Sgt. Don Crist. The two men also were wearing black running outfits and black Nike shoes similar to the ones worn in the mass suicide. ''They did have a note similar to the one that was found at Heaven's Gate, suggesting they were going to meet with their leader on the other side of the comet and suggesting suicide,'' Crist said. Humphrey was taken to a hospital and was listed in critical condition. Cooke was married to Suzanne Sylvia Cooke, who committed suicide with the other members in March. In an interview on CBS' ''60 Minutes'' after the suicide, he said he wished he could join the group. could this be the interviewee? ''I wish I had the strength to have stuck it out and gotten stronger and continued to be a part of that crew,'' he said. Cooke, 54, said he was an ''off and on'' adherent for 23 years, but did not say why he left. At a San Diego news conference last month, Humphrey, 56, said he left after growing impatient. ''I left the group because it had been 15 years, because many of the things we were told were going to happen didn't,'' he said. ''I got tired of waiting.'' Crist said Cooke's daughter, Kelly, received a Federal Express package stating her father and a friend were in the San Diego area planning to commit suicide using the same concoction used in the earlier suicides - the anti-seizure drug phenobarbital and vodka. Ms. Cooke called Ms. Stahl, who then contacted San Diego County Sheriff's Deputies, Crist said. Ms. Cooke was uncooperative and spoke only in generalities, he said. She believed they would either take their lives at the Rancho Santa Fe mansion or near the beach, Crist said. Deputies were able to track the package to the Holiday Inn Express in Encinitas. Deputies found both men on the floor at 12:25 p.m., Crist said. Cooke was found face-down with a plastic bag on his head. Humphrey had a plastic bag near him. Both men had also packed tote bags similar to those found near the bodies of the Heaven's Gate cult members, Crist said. CNN reported Tuesday that it received what appeared to be a suicide tape related to the men's plans. ''I would like everyone to understand that I simply cannot stay here any longer and I am leaving because it is time for me to leave,'' one of the men said in a letter accompanying the tape, received by CNN's Los Angeles bureau Tuesday morning via Federal Express. The Web sites are still operated by former cult members, although they were not updated with news of Tuesday's events. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 21:54:31 (EDT)
Poster: op-read this Email: To: op - please read this one Subject: Re: Again... Message: Thanks for correcting my error in recalling the show in question, (condescendingly as usual 'could this be the interviewee?' ) but I broke my silence to ask what your point is? And also to add if anyone is interested CNN has the full video of Wayne Cook explaining his decision to leave his vehicle tonight at 10 pm eastern. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 23:06:22 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Again... Message: Is that the same guy who committed suicide today???? Guess he finally came up with the devotion. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 00:14:30 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Again... Message: Damn it. I just wanted to show you what the outcome was. I didn't mean to be condescending. I'm only human, after all. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 11:29:52 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Jim and Laurie Subject: Invitation Message: Dear Jim and Laurie- I'd like to formally invite you to come and visit me in my home. I would love to share some of my new found friends with my husband and son. They already feel they know you Jim and Laurie I feel I know you, though we never have met. Being with Jim and seeing MJ for who he is says it all for me. As far as the rest of my new friends, well unless they bring they're wifes etc it make indeed look like I'm being courted. But the invite is open to any EX-premies. It would be fun. Jim, I know that you probably think I'm a lightweight and don't have much respect for me staying with my husband but if you visited you'd see the whole picture. Some thing is definately happening to him...maybe he starting to think? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 17:04:17 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Invitation Message: One more thing I forgot to say Jim is that for someone who has is thinking of leaving a cult CAPTIVE HEARTS CAPTIVE MINDS is a great book to understand the anxiety, depression, guilt etc. and even the incredable feeling of freedom that you feel. Reading some of the accounts of what happened to people and people they knew after leaving I'd venture to say that it would have been a helpful book to read for these situations. Perhaps even preventing suicide or nervous breakdown. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 21:07:32 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Invitation Message: You know what I'd like? I'd like this whole crew to have a masquerade ball. The one rule would be NO MENTION OF M AND KNOWLEDGE. And no names. (ok two rules) After a couple of hours, it would be great to find out what we think of each other WITHOUT preconceptions (sorry, Jim, the word concept just crept in there). Then, when we go back to arguing, there might be a bit more respect ... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 21:13:45 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: op Subject: Re: Invitation Message: OP, read the post I jsut put up about you a few minutes ago. Here you squarely prove my point -- you're trying to distract us. Why don't you answer my question, by the way: Why did you call him a trickster? Why did you say he 'knows how to run circles around the games this world tries to play with him'? What games? What circles? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 00:59:07 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Invitation Message: How clearly you misread my intentions. I think it would do people well to see each other as human beings FIRST, without the trappings. I happen to believe in humanity. I'll try to do the trickster here - but I seem to have opened up yet another can of worms. A trickster is one who plays tricks. Krishna was a considered a trickster because he used to break the gopi's pots of yoghurt, steal their butter, etc. He was considered quite a nuisance, and there was an attempt to arrest him at one point. But I wasn't referring to any one situation when I used the term. It was simply one in a list of ways in which Maharaji is seen by different people. Remember? Was that one of the posts lost with the Titanic? If not, I might find it. As for trickster acts on his part - I'll have to get back to you on that. Seriously. Right now I'm falling asleep over this message. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 06:50:12 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Invitation Message: I remember this one! The Great Justification. The premise is that MJ is (of course) God pretending to be this guy. This guy's purpose in this world is (of course) to free us from our limited mind. In order to do this he does outrageous things to constantly 'blow our minds'. I remember the way premies used to laugh and shake their heads at his pranks, since they recognized them for what they were. Think the Lord should be poor and humble? Look again!! Think he should follow through on what he says he will cause to happen? Surprise!!! Oh, MJ!! Your tricks in this world are SO wonderful!! Look at how he plays with us [blissful grin]... My mind is so blown! Gee... Take my wife... Please!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 08:16:10 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Invitation Message: I remember this one! The Great Justification. The premise is that MJ is (of course) God pretending to be this guy. This guy's purpose in this world is (of course) to free us from our limited mind. In order to do this he does outrageous things to constantly 'blow our minds'. I remember the way premies used to laugh and shake their heads at his pranks, since they recognized them for what they were. Think the Lord should be poor and humble? Look again!! Think he should follow through on what he says he will cause to happen? Surprise!!! Oh, MJ!! Your tricks in this world are SO wonderful!! Look at how he plays with us [blissful grin]... My mind is so blown! Gee... Take my wife... Please!! Oh Brian, this is your best yet, thanks for starting my day with a good laugh! You have nailed it on the head though. The Krishna story gives the ol boy license to do anything and the cosmic spin offs for his premies is something that is bound to shoot them to the next level....maybe premies could benifet from the focus that even drop-outs from Heaven's Gate have. That way, when MJ runs back to India because his PR people don't know what damage control they can do because of people visiting this website, then maybe they can all go with him. Wouldn't that be great? My husband excluded, of course. He seems too comfortable sitting on the femce. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 11:31:25 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: op Subject: Re: Invitation Message: You know what I'd like? I'd like this whole crew to have a masquerade ball. The one rule would be NO MENTION OF M AND KNOWLEDGE. And no names. (ok two rules) After a couple of hours, it would be great to find out what we think of each other WITHOUT preconceptions (sorry, Jim, the word concept just crept in there). Then, when we go back to arguing, there might be a bit more respect ... Just don't hold it at the Miami Beach Convention Center. If I have to look at the inside of that place again, I shall barf. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 11:31:41 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: op Subject: Re: Invitation Message: You know what I'd like? I'd like this whole crew to have a masquerade ball. The one rule would be NO MENTION OF M AND KNOWLEDGE. And no names. (ok two rules) After a couple of hours, it would be great to find out what we think of each other WITHOUT preconceptions (sorry, Jim, the word concept just crept in there). Then, when we go back to arguing, there might be a bit more respect ... Just don't hold it at the Miami Beach Convention Center. If I have to look at the inside of that place again, I shall barf. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 11:14:59 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Everyone Subject: Survivors Message: Some folks here feel ripped off by Maharaji. They feel they have been lied to, cheated, even abused. Some feel they are survivors of cults. A friend of mine, Dr. Al Siebert, is an expert on survivors. He has written a book called *The Survivor Personality*. Much of what he says in this book is applicable to those who feel they are survivors of DLM. Here is a quote from the book: A Total Commitment to Do One's Best When problems or setbacks occur, the better survivors recover quickly from feeling discouraged. They don't waste time dwelling on the past or on what they've lost. Their energies are directed to getting things to turn out well. The following statements typify their attitudes: There's no going back--go on the best way possible. No one can tell me what I can't do. Life isn't fair. Big deal. You play the hand with the cards you draw. What would I do if my life was totally disrupted by disaster? Start over again. Such statements reveal that emotional survival includes overcoming feelings of anger at the world for not treating them fairly. The best survivors spend almost no time, especially in emergencies, getting upset about what has been lost, or feeling distressed about things going badly. They can let go and start over. They know that if they lose everything, they will still have themselves. For this reason they don't usually take themselves too seriously and are therefore hard to threaten. In fact, they may be amused at threats to their jobs, property, or reputations. The Survivor Personality pg. 194 Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 11:53:17 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Survivors Message: I posted something to Anon yesterday that I didn't get a response to. Would you be willing to give me some feedback? Basically, I know this is not necessarily 'premie' stuff - so maybe you guys think it doesn't apply. But I felt it did, because it's the common language of living. For those of you who read it yesterday under 'ultimate experience', just ignore me - again. Yes, I DID read your Journeys post. Yes I do feel for you. No I am not saying you have to rush back to Maharaji. You admit, over and over, that you DID have some kind of good experience with Knowledge. Why can't you take those few good memories and live with that? I did lose most of my possessions about a year an a half ago to a fire. It was quite a shock. About the only thing I still miss every once in a while are all the pictures we took as the kids were growing up. Something we can't replace. Am I going to live the rest of my life regretting the fire? Especially since it was my daughter's fault. Should I spend the rest of my life blaming her? We got over it. There are a few thousand people who just lost their entire past in floods. How many of them are going to spend the next few years, or the rest of their lives, pining for what's gone? I'm sure you have a wonderful life with family and friends now. Give yourself a chance - if you feel that what happened with Maharaji was all garbage, throw it away. Remember my house. All my beloved objects melted, scorched, waterlogged, covered in soot. I had to take each thing I had so lovingly cared for over the years and chuck it into a huge dumpster. We did our own cleanup - It gave me a sense of closure that I'm sure wouldn't have happened if we'd hire someone to do our dirty work. Among the burnt out belongings, I found a few treasures. They're all the more valuable now because I have so few. This might not be the right gesture - again, we don't know each other, I don't know what you hold sacred. But maybe you can do something like that. Take your bad memories, give them a final goodbye, and dump them. Don't worry about offending anyone - after all, these are ruined memories. Records that don't play. Mangled tapes. One more thing and then I'll leave you alone. A few years ago my son got into drugs. Heavily. He was 15. He's extremely bright - tested off the charts and all that when he was in grade school, and then he attempted to snort his brains away. I had such high aspirations for him! (as don't we all?) He went through rehab. At various group sessions I kept trying to convince him of the importance of education. He wasn't listening. After one session, one of the counselors came up to me and told me it was time for me to let go. Let go of what? Of my dreams that this budding genius of mine should at least fulfill his potential? I did't want to face that. She handed me a crumpled piece of paper. 'This is his education,' she said. I held it in my hand. I crumpled it more. 'Now, give it to your higher power' (you know the terminology they use). I couldn't. I stood there for about a half an hour with the stupid ball of paper in my hand. But it did become something to me. I started to realize that more important than education was my son's sanity and health. Education is a byproduct, and if it comes, it comes. His life is number one at this moment. I threw away the paper. Consciously. I didn't even have to hand it over to a higher power. I just let go. Does any of this make sense to you? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 12:52:00 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Survivors Message: I think you would find that the people who feel ripped off by GMJ HAVE taken charge of their lives and HAVE moved on. I know I certainly have. Believe me, I have NOT been sitting around for 13 years bitching about having been in a cult. In fact, I thought little about it in about the past 10 years. This webbsite has brought it up again for me, and now, with some distance, and a LOT more confidence in my own experience and who I am as a person, I think I can talk about it in a way I wouldn't have been able to 10 years ago. It's interesting because it was part of my life, but I could just as easily forget it all, if I didn't find talking about it now so much fun. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 20:06:07 (EDT)
Poster: Anon to Bobby Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Survivors Message: I don't aspire just to be a pathetic survivor. I learned all that straightaway. I have moved on and created a great life for myself. But there's more. I have spirit and drive to spare.. I enjoy and want to stir up the pitifull and hypocritical world of Maharaji because it needs to be done. You lot advocate a boring, selfish and compromising self-satisfied peace . The peace of contentment is the peace of death! Bobby, do you want to dampen our enthusiasm to fight a just war which could save the lives of many? Would you have us leave MJ to his own devices unchallenged? Would you stifle the voice of dissent and propose a smug silence instead? Give us a break, brother. Where is your revolutionary spirit? We are fighting for the Truth. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 20:33:03 (EDT)
Poster: Anon to OP Email: To: op Subject: Re: Survivors Message: Don't worry OP your reply is coming! This isn't just about losing possessions. It's about fulfillment of my existence. I can't turn around and forget the object of my life's dedication. The purpose of all this is to force a response from MJ or DIE FIGHTING FOR JUSTICE. You assume I took this dedication lightly. WRONG. I am prepared to stick my neck out to fight for what I know. I am not going to turn around and let anyone FUCK with my life for fun. I know I will never be satisfied until I have resolved my feelings about MJ. Right now that means blowing the whistle loud! Not shrinking cowardly into a mediocre yuppie self satisfied existence. 'Move on' = 'forget it' I suppose. My good experiences of the past are provocative memories according me no rest. I strive to completely understand the enigma I experienced not to put it in a box and forget it!
I don't want to belittle your loss of property etc. but if my
daughter were to burn my house down I would be totally forgiving.
Maharaji's pyromania is of an altogether different proportion and
although potentially forgiveable (only with considerably generous
stretching of the imagination) is definately not to be IGNORED.
IT MUST BE ADDRESSED.
|
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 21:03:55 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Anon to OP Subject: Re: Survivors Message: Yep. All the way! By the way, OP, I've noticed you waging a petty little smear campaign against me. You say I'm indirect, vague, unfair, manipulative, must be taken with a bunch of salt.. and.... Jewish, did I hear Jewish? Is THAT what this is? Another Dreyfuss affair? No, seriously, OP, what the fuck are you talking about? Are you pissed off that I call you on sneaky word games? Or that I hold you accountable for anything you say? Let's face it, OP. If this were a car driving down the road to find/uncover the truth about the guru fellow, you'd be a questionable passenger. You'd be chatty, friendly, but, ultimately, untrustworthy. You'd keep distracting the driver and might even grab the wheel from time to time and pull it hard to the right. You might try to talk us into going home and, in between BUYING cookies for us at interstate truckstops, you might actually fuck with our maps. Point is -- YOU DON'T WANT US TO SUCCEED! Isn't that true? Isn't that the real reason you drop your smiley dispostion when someone acts as if we're treating this endeavour even slightly seriously? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 00:48:56 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Survivors Message: Dear Jim: I tried to post a reply to you a couple of hours ago. And guess what happened? I had just gotten to the point where I was explaining a bit about 'trickster' - and I got disconnected from the net! Lost the entire letter. I'll try to reconstruct. 1. Smear campaign? No. I just think people should be forewarned when shit is going to be flying into their faces. 2. Actually I'm very glad that you call attention to my nasty habit of writing without thinking. It's made me a lot more aware of the use of language. I'm used to writing mostly for myself, and so I tend to follow my own stream of consciousness. You've made me pay attention to the possible consequences of a misspoken word or phrase. (oddly, this is something that I'm always calling my authors on - the tendency to presume that the reader can get inside the writer's mind and follow the train of thought) 3. No. I don't want to distract you. I was serious the couple of times I asked people to define what they want on this forum. There seem to be a few different goals, and I think it's easier to reach a destination when you're clear about where you want to go. I really have no agenda here. When I first saw the page, I saw some things that seemed factually incorrect, and I tried to clarify. I have no intention of being a main character here, or anything else. If you really think I'm harming your objectives, I'll leave. I think some people might think I've added a few thoughts here. I certainly have no intention of coming off as an expert in any field. Just another personality with a few different viewpoints. I'm not quite sure what you want to succeed at. You say you're out for retribution and revenge. But was that Jim in the seriously dedicated mode or in the tongue in cheek mode? It's not easy to tell sometimes. I had originally meant to talk about the trickster in this reply, but since it blew up in my face last time - again - I won't dare. I'm getting superstitious. I'll post this and talk about trickster another time - once I'm sure I haven't lost yet another bit of communication with you. [Sorry for the delay in answering you, by the way. Just had a long talk with a dear old friend - also ex premie. Also a one-time fanatic. I think she would agree with a lot of the perspective expressed on this forum.] Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 16:23:38 (EDT)
Poster: Mili to Anon Email: To: Anon to Bobby Subject: Re: Survivors Message: I don't aspire just to be a pathetic survivor. I learned all that straightaway. I have moved on and created a great life for myself. But there's more. I have spirit and drive to spare.. I enjoy and want to stir up the pitifull and hypocritical world of Maharaji because it needs to be done. You lot advocate a boring, selfish and compromising self-satisfied peace . The peace of contentment is the peace of death! Bobby, do you want to dampen our enthusiasm to fight a just war which could save the lives of many? Would you have us leave MJ to his own devices unchallenged? Would you stifle the voice of dissent and propose a smug silence instead? Give us a break, brother. Where is your revolutionary spirit? We are fighting for the Truth. So, that's your excuse for harassing us! You are a pathetic, frustrated liar. Leave us alone. We are not putting anyone in jeopardy and our Guru is a benign friend to all, quite unlike all the lies that are perpetrated on this website. You can take your revolutionary spirit and get your kicks somewhere else. Go to Zaire or Ruanda. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 09:31:15 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Everyone Subject: Spiritual Master Message: Maharaji has even talked about wanting to change this world by changing people's hearts. That's really Maharaji's mission. He wants to bring peace. But maybe people think that's impossible. Yet the peace that Maharaji can reveal and the experience that Maharaji can give - there's no denying it when we can really open ourselves enough to experience the reality of it. Many, many people have actually experienced it in their lives. Maharaji is really doing something in this world that so many people have tried to do and have had so many motivations to try to do. But it's really true that you can't change the world until you change their hearts. Otherwise you change people's ideas, you change their concepts, and you change their modes of living and it's all very superficial. It's all very cosmetic. But Maharaji is the one who can penetrate deeper than that. He can show us something so much more real and something so much more perfect that lies within us. That's all. At that point, we can just put a period. Because at that point we have to see. Maybe one part of us saysthat is impossible and that is ridiculous; and oh, I ve never heard of anything like that. Yet maybe we can t conceive of it. Just the very fact that life is here and the very fact that we re alive shows that there are certain possibilities that are marvelous. Life itself is such a miracle. Then Maharaji comes to show us that deepest part of ourselves and to lead us on the path of Truth which is an internal path, which is a path of really coming to know ourselves. It's a deep path and that's why Maharaji comes as a living Master to teach the way because even what we could get through scriptures or through any other medium still allows too much room for our concepts, our fears, doubts, confusions and all our limitations. Maharaji comes as a dynamic Master, who can not only bring that essence and reveal that true experience but can guide us and inspire us and love us and put us through that whole process that we need in order to really open up to what is already existing. What Maharaji is saying is look, that very life that keeps us alive is so precious, don't just experience it subconsciously, but become completely aware of it. That's the path that he opens up for us. By being able to share our experiences, by having someone who is really experiencing that Truth in their lives being able to share that experience, something very profound can happen. A lot of understanding can happen. Just by being able to be involved with service that has some other motive than selfishness, we can really open up . Yet Maharaji doesn't just limit it to that, because he can actually reveal us that Truth. And that's what we can experience through meditation. Meditation isn't something that we kind of incorporate into our life to improve our life as it is. Meditation is something that's really profound, that can really transform our whole perspective of who we are. It's the kind of a force that Maharaji wants to reveal to us. Maybe there are other people who can bring about change in this world, but Maharaji is bringing change based on an essence, based on an experience that is beautiful. The essence of what Maharaji is revealing is life and it's beautiful. It brings a lot of peace and a lot of love and a lot of joy to our hearts. He's revealing us that harmony that really brings us peace. He's revealing us that real vibration , showing us that essence connecting us with it, letting us have that experience of Grace in our lives. By basing our lives on that experience, Maharaji offers us a total life that is completely lived within the realms of Truth. It doesn t deny anything and it doesn't restrict us from anything. It just opens us up to something so much more than anything else that we could ever experience in this life. That's why it's so positive. Maharaji doesn't come and say, don't do something He doesn't come and judge or criticize or condemn. He comes and offers, saying look here. Here's something that you can have. Here's an experience that you can have and it's beautiful and it ll change you. But it ll be a beautiful change, because it ll bring you to that place where you can really experience genuine peace, a love that's not just a limited selfish love or an emotional love, but that true experience of really understanding what the purpose of life is. It's very simple and very natural. And Maharaji is very simple and very natural. Yet, to really understand what is Maharaji we have to come and open ourselves. We can just really go back and ask, Well, what is it that we re wanting to know? I could look at my whole life as the path of Knowledge because ever since I was the tiniest little child I was wanting to know everything. Even when I was really little, I always used to ask so many questions. Yet, as I grew up more and more and got involved in so many things, and got more and more aware of what was going on in this world, I just saw that what most people knew, what they were basing their lives on, was so superficial, so artificial and ultimately so frustrating. Actually, to talk about the path of Knowledge, is a very simple thing - satsang, service and meditation. In essence what it is, is that Maharaji is revealing us an experience that takes us really deep inside, that opens us up to a whole new experience within us, which is that power which is keeping us alive. As we have more connection with that, then we just automatically want to share it, because it is beautiful and that's what we call satsang - sharing that experience of Truth. As we have more and more of an experience of that, we really want to help other people, we really want to do service. It's not a service that comes from any other motivation than just love, just that joy that is there. To walk the path of Knowledge is so simple, so joyful. It's not an unreal thing. It's not that we are somehow trying to separate ourselves from the flow of life, or to somehow separate ourselves from this world, but what we re trying to do is experience the Truth of life in everything we do. The path of Knowledge encompasses every moment of every day, because we have a chance to do actions. But it can be something really pure, something really selfless, something with one aim - which is to uplift. We can take time, stop, and come to a clear understanding of what our life is all about. That's the experience we can have in satsang, just to let everything settle out and to come to that place where there is clarity. Life is more than eating, drinking, and being merry, trying to grab as much gusto as we can in this world. There's something else very real. There's a very deep and very meaningful purpose in our life, which is to realize Truth. All that just leads to inspiration. The inspiration of doing service and the inspiration of satsang leads us to really merge ourselves into that perfection that is deep within us, that is hidden by a veil. So many people, even though that Power is giving them life, are under a veil of ignorance, concepts, doubts and fears. That's why Maharaji has come to reveal us that Knowledge. That is what walking the path of Knowledge is - opening up more and more to that guidance and that love and inspiration that Maharaji can give us. It's just so full, so beautiful. To me, it was a profound change when I met Maharaji and when he gave me Knowledge because I realized that I had everything. I had someone I could really trust. And yet, he immediately turned me around right back within myself and said, look there is Truth. Go deep within. Don't go back to just more thoughts and more ideas and more subconscious confusion, but go to that depth and experience that light, experience that inner sound, experience that love, that vibration which is the essence of all. It's not something I can do on my own. It requires a Master soul. It requires someone who can come and ignite my soul. That is what Maharaji is. That is what a Perfect Master is. He's the one who not only comes and guides and inspires and helps us, but he is that Master soul who can come and awaken our heart, awaken that latent Knowledge within us so that it can tangibly be experienced in our lives. To me, it's priceless. It's very subtle. It's not anything that I have to go out and lay a trip on other people. But, it's undeniable to me what Maharaji has done. He has done that ultimate miracle. He has awakened me to something that always was there, but now is just coming out. I see that is the service we re all wanting to do. If more and more people could have this experience, it would change this world, because a more and more people start walking the path of Knowledge, they start coming together. There can really be a basis for harmony. So this experience is not only the fulfillment in each individual's life of connecting with the truth within themselves, but it's also a thing that can really bring people together in a spirit of cooperation and harmony to do service, to help this whole world. To me, this is not just an ideal or hopeless dream, but it's a reality, because I ve seen it. For the twenty years that I have had Knowledge and been walking on this path of Knowledge, it has just gotten stronger and stronger, more and more natural and so firm because I m seeing that Maharaji has shown me everything. I guess the only way I can really even begin to describe what it is to walk
the path of Truth is that it's beautiful and it's full of a lot of joy. I see
that's what Maharaji always talks about. He wants us to have the victory of
joy in our life, that true, deep joy, the unsmiled smile that is within us.
The only way you can really have that experience is to go to the deepest level
of your being and really experience that. And Maharaji can do it.
|
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 09:40:05 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Spiritual Master Message: Yes, I agree with everything you say Mili. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 10:26:27 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Spiritual Master Message: Am I mistaken or isn't what Mili just posted an old Satsang of Bill Paterson's whom we now know left Maharaji in disgust because of the way he was treated? If so how do you think he would feel now if he knew he was being shamelessly plaigarised in this way by Mili? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 10:35:01 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: Spiritual Master Message: Is that true Mili? Did you really do that? I can't believe it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 16:21:57 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: Spiritual Master Message: I don't think it was Bill Patterson's satsang. Bill Patterson used the words more and more at least 80 times in every satsang (that was his rule) and the words because there is that experience had to be used at least 90 times. The numbers just don't add up in this case. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |