Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum I Archive # 2 | |
From: May 3, 1997 |
To: May 7, 1997 |
Page: 2 Of: 5 |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 08:23:50 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Everyone Subject: unbalanced discussion Message: Jim continues on his agenda of retribution and revenge just as he explicitly states in the ultimate experience thread. To quote Jim: I personally want retribution and revenge. To me, this type of thinking is bloodlust and throws the whole agenda of this forum out of balance. I know that I will not participate in such discussion. I suspect that there are many others who decline participation as well. Revenge is not a balanced means of examining what premies have experienced or assessing Maharaji's mission. Revenge is full of passion and vengence. Appropriate expression of emotion -- whether anger, sadness, or joy -- is fine, but to my mind impassioned and hurtful attack is not. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 08:47:05 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: unbalanced discussion Message: Golly, Bobby, you really got me thinking about things. Thanks a lot! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 08:55:26 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: unbalanced discussion Message: Revenge is not a balanced means of examining what premies have experienced or assessing Maharaji's mission. Revenge is full of passion and vengence. Appropriate expression of emotion -- whether anger, sadness, or joy -- is fine, but to my mind impassioned and hurtful attack is not. Then don't participate in it. Jim's perspective is honest. It is how he feels. I know that, as we debate the pros and cons of the 'premie experience', someone out there is debating which is the greater good: Buy videos or get their teeth fixed? Fly off to wherever to be in his divine presence, or pay the rent? Which do you think Maharaji would recommend? I drove to Houston because of what HE said was going to happen there. I wasn't just out on a spin. You wouldn't put up with that sort of flim-flam from your local grocery store. Some people just want their money back. Or a raincheck? Or maybe an apology? Others just shop elsewhere, pocketing the loss.
Personally, I'd welcome a little honesty from the fat man. Just
not gonna hold my breath over it is all...
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Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 11:01:59 (EDT)
Poster: Mili to Bobby Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: unbalanced discussion Message: People who can't accept the simple fact that others have different experiences and different opinions from their own are not worthy of talking to. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 11:27:05 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Booby Subject: Re: unbalanced discussion Message: Don't you know by now that everything Jim says has to be taken with a grain of salt? Sorry, two grains, no three...maybe four. Actually, a whole lot of salt, to seal the wounds it produces. (Sorry for the Booby, Bobby, but this time I think you deserved it - imagine, thinking Jim is actually going to say something straightforward...) (gotta run now - have to duck out of the way before the frying pans and the cow dung start flying!!!) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 11:32:59 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: op Subject: Re: unbalanced discussion Message: Actually, I didn't expect anything from Jim at all. He's made it quite clear that he is quite set in his ways. Mili's right. The mindset that Jim glorifies in is not worth responding to. Jim may learn common respect someday, but for now he is content with spit and piss. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 11:42:05 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: unbalanced discussion Message: The danger in Jim's perspective is that it can be catching. Watch what happens when you, or JW, have been bantering with Jim and someone with a different opinion steps in -- Jim in triplicate!!! Even Anon seems to catch the bug every once in a while. On the other hand, when you simply come in and describe your OWN life, there's a whole other viewpoint, a different reality coming through. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 12:42:04 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: op Subject: Re: unbalanced discussion Message: Yes, if you describe you OWN life, which I have tried to do on several occasions, if it reflects in any way negatively on Guru Maharaj Ji, you get attacked by current premies as being somehow defective. It can't be HIM, it HAS to be YOU. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 19:26:53 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: op Subject: Re: unbalanced discussion Message: The danger in Jim's perspective is that it can be catching. Watch what happens when you, or JW, have been bantering with Jim and someone with a different opinion steps in -- Jim in triplicate!!! Even Anon seems to catch the bug every once in a while. On the other hand, when you simply come in and describe your OWN life, there's a whole other viewpoint, a different reality coming through. Don't fucking try and suggest that my anger is a bug caught from Jim. I may sympathise with him but I have plenty of strong 'burning' feelings all of my own without having to catch a light from him. I mean what I say. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 19:39:06 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: unbalanced discussion Message: Actually, I didn't expect anything from Jim at all. He's made it quite clear that he is quite set in his ways. Mili's right. The mindset that Jim glorifies in is not worth responding to. Jim may learn common respect someday, but for now he is content with spit and piss. What are you talking about? You must have a really sensitive ego . Jim's mindset is brilliant. He at least cuts through all the wishy-washy crap with his spit and piss. You should be grateful somebody takes the trouble. He's lovely. Sometimes I think all some people want is to be flattered. Jim has intelligence, guts and honesty which are rare qualities in ex-maharaji puppets! You sound like a precious old faggot wanting all that respect and threatening to ignore him! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 19:54:55 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: unbalanced discussion Message: So, make that two nasty-ass motherfuckers -- you and Jim. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 20:40:28 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: unbalanced discussion Message: So, make that two nasty-ass motherfuckers -- you and Jim. That's what you think. Some people think I'm nice and sincere. Please don't take this badly I don't mean to be rude. I am just brutally frank. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 21:09:33 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: unbalanced discussion Message: Bobby, I'm SO sorry for anything you want. If you've perceived an indignity, I'm guilty. If you feel slighted, I'm your man. If you feel pressured to think straight, that's unthinkable. If you need a little love, get another hanky. Love is the answer and there are no questions. A spoon full of sugar and supercalifragelisticexpialidocious! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 21:15:46 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: unbalanced discussion Message: Jim you're a slimy maggot. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 21:17:42 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: unbalanced discussion Message: Yea that was a bit pathetic wasn't it.... but he's such a sensitive flower....and I didn't mean any harm. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 21:19:28 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: unbalanced discussion Message: Jim you're a slimy maggot. Big Hug everybody! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 22:42:40 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: unbalanced discussion Message: Hey, hey, hey, as the resident faggot here, I don't cotton to homophobic remarks! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 22:56:53 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: unbalanced discussion Message: You're right. I am sensitive. A very sensitive man. I hold that as a strength and a gift. Sensitivity allows me to feel compassion and to help others. Jim treats sensitivity and kindness as attributes to be despised. I have already for the most part been ignoring him. He's a fool. You say Jim's mindset is brilliant. Hey, Josef Goebbels was brilliant too. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 23:29:08 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: unbalanced discussion Message: Bobby, if your reading this, stay the course man. Your sensitivity is your defining characteristic. Never mind what I or anyone else says about you. Have the strength to be you! For you! And you're spot on with that Goebbels comparison. Verrrryyy, verrrrry clever, I must say. I thought no one would notice but, well there it is. You've got me, my friend. Now you know what I'm all about. Now I'm revealed for the nazi propagandist I really am. But, Bobby, now that you've got me where you want me, please, please, have more mercy on me than I ever showed you. See, deep inside, I'm a sensitive guy too. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 5, 1997 at 22:28:13 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: Michener - fortune teller Message: I lifted this from a review of James Michener's autobiography in the Skeptical Inquirer (Summer 1992): Late in the book Michener, who turned 85 on February 3, devotes the first thrid of a chapter to his exoeriences learning, and practising, the art of fortune-telling. Yes fortune-telling. Once when 'knocking about Egypt' Michener came upon a gifted fortune-teller named the Princess. His interest and curiosity led her to let him in on the system. She used a deck of cards to provide the fortune, arranged in six columns of eight with four cards left over, 'the heart of the fortune.' She would put on remarkable exhibitions based on what Michener realized was 'insight, shrewd guessing and plain common sense' and her readings were often right on the mark. She told him not to try to be too clever; use any seceret information your subject reveals but stick with what the cards reveal. And she pointed out that all people are vitally concerned with the six headings, which dealt with job, love, safety, death, money and travel. And she told him alsways to be specific; when you're correct it has a big impact on the subject. Some years later his home district in Pennsylvania decided to launch an arts festival, and a dfriend urged Michener to tell fortuens as his contribution. He set up a tent, put on an 'outrageous hat and scarf' and 'began to tell some of the wildest fortunes ever heard in rural Pennsylvania.' His fortune-telling became an instant sensation, 'and by sheer accident I hit just enough truths or near-truths to cause neighbours to tell others of the remarkable record I was compiling as a man who could really forsee past and future.' It was then he uncovered the real secret the Princess had kept form him, Michener recalls. 'In the course of telling a fortune a seer makes about forty-five separate statements, and at least thrity-five will be totally wide of the mark, but if he or she succeeds in the remaining ten to hit even one right on the nose, that is what is remembered...' A string of just such lucky hits -- and Michener gives several examples -- established his reputation and began attracting clients from outside the area. He then came to another realization. 'I discovered that one of the profound secrets of fortune-telling is that subjects want to believe what they are being told and will sometiems go to ectreme lengths to make the prophecises come true.' He told a businessman he would go to Omaha the next Tuesday and things would work out well. He later found the man as a result had addaed Omaha to a trip originally intended to include only Kansas City, and in Omaha had indeed engineered a successful deal. 'That fellow Michener is unbelievable,' the man told everyone. 'My reputation grew,' Michener says. Michener stopped the readings only when he realized how seriously people were beginning to take them. He told a woman and her husband not to go on a planned trip. She later told him they went, and their car was hit by a truck and her husband killed. 'This and other extraordinary coincidences that resulted from sheer guessing, began to make me think that what I was doing was irresponsible; it had become far more serious than jsut a silly game, and I realized that I had better quit the nonsense, becuase even if I refused to take it seriously, others did.' He syas the forutne-telling methods he was taught bear a 'striking resemblance' to the story-telling skills he uses in novels. 'In both activities one used observation, shrew guesswork and the proper selection of emotion-laden words to create empathy.' Michener concludes this tale in a way that will endear him to skeptics. 'Never once, not even when I was reaping great acclaim as a seer, did I beleive a word of what I told my subjects, nor did the Princess ... Each of us acknowledged that what we did was nothing but delightful trickery.' He resisted entreaties to enlist in the cause of the believers. 'I was frequently invited or badgered to confess that I had supernatural powers, or was in touch with spirits, or had at some point been inducted into the world of black magic, but I was never remotely inclined to accpet such nonsense and quickly dropped my involvement when others began taking fortune-telling mroe seriously than I did. I had no powers of spiritualism whatsoever. Tarot, I Ching, and astrology disgust me and I think that newspapers that publish daily horoscpes are enemies of sanity. When people ask 'What sign are you?' I cringe. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 00:50:03 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Michener - fortune teller Message: I am glad to hear of such honesty from a fellow Quaker, Michener. - Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 06:16:36 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Michener - fortune teller Message: You know, there have been several Radhasoami SatGurus (sharing Maharaji's fathers lineage) who have basically admitted that there were more prosaic explanations for their followers experiences. I will try and dig out some examples of this. I also personally know an Astrologer premie who has several times (usually after a few drinks) confessed to employing the exact same 'techniques' as Mr Michener. Unfortunately he does not tell his clients any of this. Quite the contrary, he needs the money and also feels justified that he is doing them a service by feeding them 'positive suggestions' etc. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 08:23:41 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Cooper Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Michener - fortune teller Message: Just to let you know Jim that I got a copy of The Moral Animal and will let you know what I make of it soon. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 08:32:35 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: Michener - fortune teller Message: Just to let you know Jim that I got a copy of The Moral Animal and will let you know what I make of it soon. Good. Look forward to it. See, I've got a copy too and I jsut hadven't had time to read nothing. AND I've got to get this book report in next week! :) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 10:05:54 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Michener - fortune teller Message: OKAY JIM...MY COPY OF THE GURU PAPERS IS IN AT THE LIBRARY ( they had to search for the copy all over and found it in the university ) AND NOW I WANNA KNOW WHEN YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AN EFFORT TO GET A COPY OF CAPTIVE HEARTS CAPTIVE MINDS???????? FAIR IS FAIR JIM, NOW I EXPECT YOU TO MAKE AT LEAST AN EFFORT...OR DID YOU MAKE TO MUCH OF THAT IN THE 'OLD DAYS' THAT MAKING AN EFFORT IS NO FUN ANYMORE. THE VERY USE OF WORDS LIKE EFFORT, GRACE BLESSINGS ETC TURNS MY GUT STILL. AND QUESS WHAT? MY HUSBAND IS HAVING SUCH A GOOD TIME LATELY, HE SEEMS TO BE GENUINELY HAPPY. HE IS THRILLED BY THE CHANGES IN ME AND IS VERY ATTRACTED TO ME AS WELL AS VERY AFFECTIONATE. I BELIEVE THAT THE FACT THAT I AM COMING TO MY SENSES IS FREEING HIM FROM A PRISON HE ISN'T AWARE HE IS IN. IT IS LIKE HE HAS JOINED ME IN THE CANDY STORE!!! AND AS FAR AS MY INVOLVEMENT ON THIS FORUM HE THINKS THAT PREMIE'S WHO ARE ON THIS FORUM ARE WEIRD FOR THERE ARGUEMENTIVE AGGRESSIVE ATTITUDES. AND THAT IS WITH THE AWARENESS THAT THEY ARE RESPONDING TO ME AND EX-PREMIES LIKE YOURSELF.HE ALSO HOOKED ME UP TO THE NET ON MY COMPUTER UPSTAIRS SO I HAVE MORE ACCESS TO THIS FORUM ALL THE TIME. AND WHEN I AM ON IT HE NO LONGER LOOKS UPSET AT ALL LIKE HE IS SILENTLY PARTAKING IN THE TRUTH FINALLY COMING OUT. . IT WOULD SEEM THAT HE IS VERY CONTENT NOT LIVING WITH SOMEONE WHO IS MORE IN LOVE WITH HER MASTER THAN HER HUSBAND. IT'S GREAT. MAYBE SOMEDAY HE'LL REALIZE THAT THE CLARITY AND THE FEELING THAT HE HAS CONSIDERED TO BE THE ULTIMATE EXPERIENCE, IS IN FACT EVERYWHERE AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MJ, ISN'T EXCLUSIVE TO WATCHING VIDEOS, PRACTICING KNOWLEDGE, PARTICAPATING IN SERVICE OR BEING WITH MJ AT AN EVENT. MAYBE THESE WILL NO LONGER SEEM A NOTCH ABOVE ALL ELSE IN HIS LIFE AND HE'LL SEE THAT THE EMPTINESS AND MEANINGLESS HE FEARS WILL OCCUR IF HE WALKS AWAY FROM 25 YEARS OF INVOLVEMENT, JUST ISN'T THERE! I'M NOT ATTACHED TO THIS IDEA, I'M JUST AMAZED THAT HE IS SO TRUSTING AND INTIMATE WITH SOMEONE HE KNOWS THINKS MAHARAJI IS A CULT LEADER. IT HAS BEEN PARTY TIME THE LAST FEW DAYS AND MY SON HAS NEVER BEEN MORE RELAXED. THE TOLL ON HIM LIVING IN A CULT FAMILY HAS BEEN TREMENDOUS, BUT I'M TRYING TO MAKE UP FOR IT AND IT WOULD APPEAR THAT SO IS MY HUSBAND. PRETTY NEAT EH? Don't know why I was in captals, must have been excited! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 10:33:54 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Michener - fortune teller Message: Deena, you ever try reading block letters? Then you know. Yes, Laurie got us a copy of Captive Minds. I looked through it the other day. You're not going to like this but I wasn't that impressed. Sorry. Well, l want to be accurate. It seems like an excellent primer for people who either know nothing about cults, are jsut getting out and have no frame of reference or someone looking for an almost encyclopaedic resource starter. It's great for all those. What it DOESN'T have, though, is much real theory. I just didn't find anything profound there. Honestly. Sorry. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 11:03:02 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Michener - fortune teller Message: Hey, that IS great that Laurie got a copy for you guys. Sorry it had nothing to offer you. Did you read the chapters on meditation and other forms of thought reform? I thought that it nailed it on the head when it comes to how the so-called bliss or altered states people feel in cults are all so similar and induced so easily. I also liked how they draw the relationship abuse connection with cults. As far as the kindergarten approach you have to admit it suits a babe like me just out only going on 3 months ago? I intend to read cover to cover The Guru Papers as best I can. Would Laurie or yourself do the same with Captive Hearts Captive Minds in case any of the theories you may have missed might be offered afterall? I know you are a busy guy- that wouldn't be the reason you didn't find anything worth reading? Probably not eh? Well the book really helped me understand the manipulation and spiritual rape I experienced so I recommend it to anyone just getting out of a cult or feels that they hasn't had years to digest what happened even though it has been years. Also, the subtlety of the way it is insipidly presented today (our Maharaji cult) doesn't make it as clean a departure for some former bliss ninnys like myself. But thanks whole -heartedly for taking a look at it . It means alot to me. What do you mean about block letters? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 5, 1997 at 12:51:58 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Everyone Subject: What you are looking for... Message: 'What you are looking for is within you'...Maharaji. He qualifys this by admitting that many have said this before him, that he is not the first one to say it. And that is the essence of what he teaches I think everyone here will agree. That is the only good aspect I can take from the years of my own involvement -is the feeling of fulfillment and peace that is part of me, not something to be taken from another person, place, or thing. It is the same fullfillment that people search for in all religions and belief systems to fill the emptiness that they feel. Whether they become Born Again Christians or convert to Judaism or embrace Buddhaism, etc. it would seem the outcome is the same. Faith is the only aspect that can not be debated of denied. For those following the tradition of guru-devotee it comes down to the same issue. Faith is what makes the Jew deny what the Christian believes about Christ (being the messiah) The Christians faith is what makes them deny what the Muslems believe about Mohammed (not a prophet to pay heed to) etc. It can be seen in all the different faiths. Some embrace all teachers as incarnations of one savior. But that too is based on faith. What I'm getting at is that, yes, I can go to Sai Baba, or Maharaji or accept Jesus into my heart or follow a person like Marshall Applewhite and experience inner contentment and fulfillment, (cannot deny those people's experiences even though they may be argued with by Muslem, Jew etc, or even told that their teacher isn't the Perfect Master, therefore the perfect knowledge is not available to them, or that they are followers of a cult because they committed suicide). Yes, that is because all of it is based on faith. Prayer works because of faith no matter what the paticular faith is. So what is the harm? Christians, Muslems, Jews, Hindus,etc. all have fought so called Holy Wars. Fair to say millions have been slaughtered or abused in the name of many religious leaders. And in the same breath millions of people have experienced personal peace and happiness in their lives because of their faith. The common thread is the fullfillment. The aspect that divides is the belief system. Thus the much feared atheist or agnostic can share that common thread of fullfillment. Maharaji continually says what he offers is not like religion. But the fact is that in order to be in touch with that fulfillment in a persons life he says that they need a Master(and not just a teacher) to show them. That was the belief system I adopted because when I felt peace and joy I attributed it to Maharaji because he was the one who I believed showed me how to feel that. In fact, if what I was looking for is within and others have known this before then, yes, that peace is there to fulfill . I didn't need Maharaji to show me that, it could have been someone else or even on my own.According to Maharaji one cannot experience this any other way. And once you have realized this then propagation (being the master's work) becomes the disciple's work also. Separating the message from the messanger seems to be the least likely way that any harm can come of a faith. The Crusades etc. may not have occurred,(at least not in the name of Christ )or any other religious leader. Followers of Applewhite read Christs actually (so-called) spoken words ( not accounts from others.) only. They read these over and over. One could say they were devote Christians in the early years. But one man's power tore people from their families(not unlike ashram premies from their's) controlled their lives and then led them to their death. They weren't forced. They were free to leave at any time. Their loyalty and devotion was the reason they stayed. They sincerely trusted Do to be the incarnation of a Great teacher and they would have seen Maharaji as a cult leader I'm sure. So where do we draw the line? Families I know of ashram premies still suffer from those lost years. If a group commits suicide is it then ok to call it a cult? If only individuals commit suicide or have nervous breakdowns, then it's not? If harm and suffering occurs for some premies and not for others, then it isn't a cult? Then it's ok that someone has the power to be a connection to a higher power like Buddha Krishna or Christ were said to be, and by the relationship of Master-disciple that union with God is experienced as the peace we are all looking for in our lives? Not a dead master that is revered through scripture but a living one that can be physically served in this life time? Is either one different than the other? Does it even matter? Could people debate forever about all of this? Do people? And who really gives a damn? Obviously people on this forum do! So feeling fulfilled in one's life is the ultimate experience one would quess. If that fullfillment takes the form of vounteer and charitable work or being a devotee Christian, Jew etc. or raising a family or being an artist or being a devotee of a guru or just being ...or perhaps being all or none of the above or combinations thereof. Could it be ultimately all the same? Ultimately does it make any difference? Well it does if pain or suffering is caused as a result. Then it is questionable whether anyone should have the positon of a living Master and the power over people's lives that occurs. For all the good you can not deny the harm. These pages on this forum are testimony of that pain. Sincere documentation of personal suffering that for all the' Bliss' in the universe can't be worth it. And this does not deny premies their feelings of love, peace and fullfillment. This does not mock it. This just questions whether it is necessary to have Maharaji be the one all these experiences are attributed to. Is it necessary to attribute these to anyone at all? It would seem it is. Because of faith and faith alone. And I can't argue with that because like the child who believes in Santa Clause...that is very real to them and brings great joy. All I really think is that people should be informed of the whole story before they get involved...alot of people come to videos for the first time not knowing it is a Master - disciple relationship that is ultimately going to be needed. If that is what they wanted then ok. But don't deceive people. At least some of the other guru's don't hide their past (ie: Krishna costumes, Crowns, etc. the whole Indian tradition). So, if what you are looking for is wthin you then it is ok to find that peace as part of who you are and hear the reminder in ALL (not because of the Master's Grace) of life and not have the duality of mind and heart...in other words if you are not feeling that peace than it is Mind and if you are, than you are following your heart. All critical thinking becomes suspended and the duality of heart and mind becomes a receipe for insanity. Which there is plenty of evidence of on this forum. I am proof of that myself in the eyes of premies. Mind must be what I follow to have written all of this, according to them. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 5, 1997 at 15:33:06 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: What you are looking for... Message: Deena, I have to admit, after I read this post of yours, my opinion of you is changing. I sort of imagined you as a fat, bossy school teacher, but the sincerity of your thoughts here is unmistakeable. Yes, come to think of it, there were people who had traumatic experiences, falling prey to what I consider misinformation, or misinterpretation in the premie community, and thus just trying to do their best to do as others do, without understanding why they were doing it. I remember that there was a kind of peer pressure in the late seventies to attend as many festivals as possible, anywhere in the world, regardless of the consequences. People were losing jobs, getting into debt, that kind of thing. Yet, the amazing thing is, I don't see any real harm that happened from that. Those people found other jobs, repaid their debts, and most of them are married now, living completely normal lives and doing fine. Presently, the satsang in Zagreb resembles an old folks home gathering. A lot of the 'regulars' are noticeably older, and it's like , if the sisters were to get wool and knit while watching the videos that would be exactly what it would be, a pensioners get-together evening. Before and after the videos, we sit in the adjoining cafe and reminisce about the good ol' times, chit-chat about this or that person, or go out to the movies or on dates afterward. There are always people dropping in to check it out, sometimes they come back, sometimes they don't. There is a nice video-borrowing thing going on, and it's just a simple, little scene. I wish I could oblige you a little with some horror stories about it all, but there really are none that I know of. There was a girl I knew who got killed in a traffic accident. Was that Maharaji's fault? There was a woman with a little daughter who received Knowledge after having a divorce and suffering severe depressions. After a while, she stopped meditating and coming to satsang, and some years later we heard that she had committed suicide. Is Maharaji to blame? As a matter of fact, people just lead normal lives, have families, go to their jobs, have vacations. There is a premie I used to know who doesn't consider himself a premie, anymore, but a born again-Christian. The last time I met him in town, we went for a coffee and we were simply glad we saw each other after a long time. There was no high-faluting spiritual-philosophical quarrel at all. He accepted me for what I was, and I accepted him for what he wanted to be and that was it. We parted smiling and waving to each other. When Maharaji is in the area, which for us means Italy, or Austria, we are informed, and who wants to go see him, does. If you don't go to the program, you catch a video later, if you want to. No condemnation, no pressure. So, I appreciate any realistic criticism, but from my vantage point, the usual fire and brimstone spewing here is just ridiculous, and I am really getting tired of it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 00:04:28 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Jim, Anon, JW, and Scott Subject: Re: What you are looking for... Message: Come on guys, don't leave me all alone. That's two posts I've written and the only one who's responded is Mili. And you know I won't talk to him or OP or Chris. How can I, when they totally ignored my SCIENTIFIC explanations for OOBEs, NDEs, Mystical raptures, etc. etc. etc. in the G-Force examples? I believe I am the only person here who is self-educated. So I can't compete with you University Grads. I dropped out halfway through Grade 10 so I could get a job, save money and buy land (which I did.) Anyways, like I say, don't leave me all alone please!!!! I'm really just kidding you know.....I feel like I should get angry now because I'm missing out on all these explosions of anger on this forum. But.......not tonight. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 06:02:16 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: What you are looking for... Message: Come on guys, don't leave me all alone. That's two posts I've written and the only one who's responded is Mili. And you know I won't talk to him or OP or Chris. How can I, when they totally ignored my SCIENTIFIC explanations for OOBEs, NDEs, Mystical raptures, etc. etc. etc. in the G-Force examples? I believe I am the only person here who is self-educated. So I can't compete with you University Grads. I dropped out halfway through Grade 10 so I could get a job, save money and buy land (which I did.) Anyways, like I say, don't leave me all alone please!!!! I'm really just kidding you know.....I feel like I should get angry now because I'm missing out on all these explosions of anger on this forum. But.......not tonight. I read your posts and agree with everything you said. Don't let up because there's no response. That's a compliment. I for one silently applaud your perfectly sensible and refreshingly honest posts here. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 08:13:30 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: What you are looking for... Message: Yeah, Deena, I'm there too. I pretty well agree with you down the centre. I'd let you know otherwise. Besides, I thought you were giving satsang and I didn't want to interrupt! :) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 09:25:53 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Anon and Jim Subject: Re: What you are looking for... Message: Thanks Anon and Jim, For some reason I needed to hear that. I was afraid that maybe I wasn't able to articulate as well as you guys. And it is comforting to know if that if I am disagreed with I won't just be ignored,. I mean, that is what I do now so I thought maybe you were employing some of my tactics. By the way, while I have both ot you to talk to, I'd like to know more about David Smith. He was so completely harmless when he was here and it is hard to imagine the S.S. type descriptions you both give. I'm not saying that I don't believe you both, I do, I just wish I understood how he transformed and how he sees himself. Did you witness any changes or did that happen because MJ axed so many instructors and he knew he'd be toast if he didn't shut up; Did he know Bob Mishler? And Anon, I know you have a wife and kids and you are nervous about your identity and I respect that, but I'd really enjoy talking to you on the phone and you could remain Anon. It has helped me so much speaking to Jim and Mike (Info-Cult). I don't even know what is left to say or share with JW and you but I would just like to have the phone contact because this is sometimes a little like talking to myself. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 18:02:32 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: What you are looking for... Message: Thanks Anon and Jim, For some reason I needed to hear that. I was afraid that maybe I wasn't able to articulate as well as you guys. And it is comforting to know if that if I am disagreed with I won't just be ignored,. I mean, that is what I do now so I thought maybe you were employing some of my tactics. By the way, while I have both ot you to talk to, I'd like to know more about David Smith. He was so completely harmless when he was here and it is hard to imagine the S.S. type descriptions you both give. I'm not saying that I don't believe you both, I do, I just wish I understood how he transformed and how he sees himself. Did you witness any changes or did that happen because MJ axed so many instructors and he knew he'd be toast if he didn't shut up; Did he know Bob Mishler? And Anon, I know you have a wife and kids and you are nervous about your identity and I respect that, but I'd really enjoy talking to you on the phone and you could remain Anon. It has helped me so much speaking to Jim and Mike (Info-Cult). I don't even know what is left to say or share with JW and you but I would just like to have the phone contact because this is sometimes a little like talking to myself. Deena, I also enjoy reading your posts. As I have said before, I think you bring a unique perspective because your involvement is so recent. I especially find your disclosures about the propogation/aspirant process and the attempts at Elan Vital to hide the past particularly interesting. My involvement was a long time ago, but since I've been talking/writing about it again, I'm amazed at how recent it all feels. I guess it's just that now there is a distance that the emotions don't overwhelm me and I can pull it all apart and discuss it more objectively. I also sympathize with what it must be like to be going through this while in a relationship like yours. That's one thing I didn't have to deal with. An ex-cult members group was very helpful for me, as was some professional counseling. I would really recommend that if you can get either or both. Your talking to the ex-cult experts is also very good. I think it kind of helps put perspective on it all. Regarding David Smith. I know I have said some negative things about him and I haven't even seen him in 13 years so I have no idea what he is like now. I'm sure he has gray hair now and maybe he has mellowed. I hope he has gotten some counseling. As I have also said before, when he didn't have control over other peoples'lives, I really kind of liked the guy. I recall in one community where I was community coordinator and he came for a few weeks as an initiator, all he did was want me to find him tennis partners so he could play tennis. His satsang was also often self-deprecating, which I appreciated. But that changed when GMJ gave him power. I would just say that I never met anyone who was so fanatic and rigid about his service to god which I'm sure he still considers Guru Maharaj Ji to be. The other factor that makes him dangerous is a sadistic streak that I and others personally saw and I actually at one time confronted him about it. Anyway, at least at one time he also believed, and stated, that god (Guru Maharaj Ji) was controlling his every action such that anything that came into his head he was supposed to do. That, along with the fanatic rigidity and sadistic streak, was a dangerous combination for people who were vulnerable to his control. Anyway, in 1981, Mr. Smith was in charge of the western region of the U.S. for GMJ, including all the initiators, ashrams, businesses and communities. In one of his meetings with Guru Maharaj Ji, apparently GMJ was really pisssed off about the ashrams and gave the order to clean up the ashrams. I don't know if Maharaj Ji ever said what that was supposed to entail, and in other regions it happened quite differently, but Mr. Smith, because he believed that whatever came into his head was god talking, decided to use the community I was living in as his first target and went on a rampage that would put the Spanish Inquisition to shame. To him, his orders meant scaring and terrorizing and ashram premies with a lot of psychological abuse, getting ashram premies to rat on each other about who might or might not have a special friend (not allowed), who might be doing terrible things like reading books (not allowed), have a job in the world that he or she was too into (not allowed) having too many possessions (he actually went through the ashram premies' closets and threw away clothes if he thought somebody had too many), didn't behave correctly (he told one premie who had some psychological problems that he was a robot and had to change while at the same time terrifying him into being more of a robot than he ever was before). He had these interrogation meetings with individuals and groups that were terribly disrespectful and abusive. He gave satsang to the ashrams in which he used fuck and other abusive language that I had never heard in satsang before. It was unbelievable heavy and devoid of anything but fear. It was aslo clear that there was no correct way to be. Whatever you did made you open to his attack, his actions and statements could be completely contradictory, because, apparently, attacking was his purpose. It was also clear to me and others that David really ENJOYED the pain he was causing. He really ENJOYED abusing people. That was the terrifying part to me. It was abusive because he always held over the premies head that he would throw them out of the ashram, or send them to some remote community if they didn't conform to some idea he had in his head about the way you were supposed to be. Superimpose this on the many ashram satsangs we had attended with GMJ in which he said that moving out of the ashram was the absolutely worst thing you could do and basically that it was more or less required for total dedication, which was also required. I think the premies also mostly believed and had faith in GMJ's hierarchy that the GMJ was in control and would protect them. Also, by and large, these were not spaced out ashram premies. They lived by the schedule, did S,S & M (funny sound to that) every day and did what they were told. Maharaj Ji was absolutely everything to them. Even some of the initiators said Smith needed professional psychiatric help. He also, when confronted, admitted to me that he had one beaten up some girl when he was younger, almost admitting the abusive streak in him. Anyway, I saw some of the people I had lived with for a long time completely change from being fairly open, happy people to being sullen and depressed. A few of them opened up to me somewhat and talked about how terrible they felt, and the terrible fear that they didn't measure up again, blaming themselves for being worthless slugs because obviously this was all part of GMJ's plan. I think it was the feeling of wanting to get out of the concentration camp Mr. Smith was running, while at the same time your devotion to GMJ kept you there. It was a terrible, claustrophobic, imprisoned feeling. And it shook my faith in GMJ to the core. There was absolutely no love in what he did. There was absolutely no human compassion for people as individuals. All he saw was the marching orders from GMJ and his interpretation of them. It smelled of paranoia and fear. And he was basically a big jerk. You also have to also understand that the ashram premies were especially vulnerable to this type of abuse. They were mostly pretty simple types, without a lot going for them, and they literally had NOTHING besides their dedication to GMJ and trying to be more surrendered. So, here comes Mr David Smith with the sensitivity of a Mack Truck to clean up whatever it was they were doing. I don't think I ever saw anything quite like it in DLM, even among the more insane Mahatmas. I think the reaction was so negative to what he did, however, that I don't think he tried it anywhere else on a grand scale. Although I've heard stories about how he attacked individuals. I, at least, made sure what he did was well known outside the region, and I know others confronted him about it. Anyway, about a year later Mr. Smith came back to our fair community and sort of apologized to the ashram residents for what he did, but, when confronted, he used the old premie line that it was what was necessary and all perfect and it needed to happen. So, he basically spoke out of both sides of his mouth. I could never stand the sight of the guy after that. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 19:19:39 (EDT)
Poster: x Email: To: JW Subject: Re: What you are looking for... Message: Christ yes I remember him (David Smith) that way . I also remember Anne Johnson and even Guru Charananad (that great Saint who was also by the way hypocritically screwing a young Australian blonde at the time) basically spreading Maharaji's heavy sentences to all and sundry. The stupid fuckers. You know who was behind it all don't you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 19:35:53 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: x Subject: Re: What you are looking for... Message: Yes, I know Gurucharanand was fucking around. That was a blow to me -- I thought he was a great saint. Anne Johnson was nuts, and a lot of people hated her, but she and I got along great. And boy could she cook! Then there was Parlokanand who was sexually molesting little boys. I received knowledge from Parlokanand. Do you think that's what went wrong for me and the divine knowledge? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 20:14:42 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: x Subject: Re: What you are looking for... Message: Too much. You sure about Guru Charanand? By the way, I've been trying to phone David Smith fro a few weeks now and all I get's his machine. When Maharaji finally answers my letter, one of the first things I'm going ask him is if he can arrange an interview for me with David Smith. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 20:16:28 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: What you are looking for... Message: I should hope not! I got knowledge from him too! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 22:49:00 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: What you are looking for... Message: Be sure to get vaccinated beforehand. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 14:57:00 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: What you are looking for... Message: I think the Guru Charanand stuff was pretty common knowledge in the early 80s. I actually talked to someone who had sex with him. Can you give me David Smith's phone number? Maybe he'll answer my calls, but I'm sure he's busy. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 5, 1997 at 05:55:32 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Everyone Subject: Dangerous Cult !? Message: Guys, let's forget the personal squabbles and be realistic here just for a moment. This Guru-disciples thing has been going on in India for thousands of years. It's been RECORDED as far as 1500 B.C. In the time of Buddha, his disciples had a mission going in Alexandria, Egypt in 330 B.C. There were Jesus, Mohhamad, etc. In the West, if I am not mistaken, there were swamis and gurus coming long before that. Swami Vivekananda attended the Parliament of Religions Congress in Chicago in 1893. Swami Yogananda was here in the thirties, or forties. If I am not mistaken, Maharaji came to the USA in 1971 So that means that for the past 25 years, thousands of people have received Knowledge, meditated on it for a bit, then left. Or, they meditated even more if they liked it or felt it was of any value. There have been hundreds of public programs and festivals. Tens of thousands of people attended and most of them came away with smiling faces. Sure, you got your handful of fanatics, weirdos and bum trippers, but that was inevitable in view of the large numbers of people involved. There were I don't know how many incarnations of Divine Light Mission that got formed, dissolved and re-formed. There was the ashram experiment and to my understanding, as soon as it proved to be uncomfortable or counter-productive for people, Maharaji himself disbanded it. So, basically, what I am saying, this thing is not new. It's almost a part of the national heritage of this country already, a country which takes pride in individual freedom, religious or otherwise, and the edict that people are free to seek happiness in whichever way they see fit as long as they do not bring harm to others in the process. And now, out of the blue, you are trying to make us believe that this is some dangerous 'cult' that should be eradicated. I mean, comparisons with the persecution of early Christians, or witch hunts in the Dark Ages immediately come to my mind! Why not persecute the Ku Klux Klan, the drug barons, or the Neo-Nazi movements in America? Guys, get real. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 5, 1997 at 06:16:45 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Dangerous Cult !? Message: In the West, if I am not mistaken, there were swamis and gurus coming long before that. Swami Vivekananda attended the Parliament of Religions Congress in Chicago in 1893. Swami Yogananda was here in the thirties, or forties. What I meant about the swamis and gurus coming long before that, is long before Maharaji came to the USA. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 5, 1997 at 09:52:43 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Dangerous Cult !? Message: That's almost entirely illogical bullshit I'm afraid Mili. It is of course absolutely a social service to warn people of the real dangers of all persuasive movements. We are not persecuting anyone out of intolerance. We are fully paid up members of the Maharaji movement who wish to tell of our actual experiences and conclusions. I have no experience of the Klu Klux Klan and very little of Drug Barons and none of American neo-Nazi's, and whatsmore there are specific organisations that exist already to bring such obviously anti-social organisations to justice. You are making a real effort to be factual and eloquent but your common sense has evidently developed a severe malfunction. You must have just come back from a video event. Citing religious tolerance and freedom of speech as a reason for us to get off Maharaji's case is the last resort of the feeble-minded! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 5, 1997 at 11:01:30 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Dangerous Cult !? Message: Guys, let's forget the personal squabbles and be realistic here just for a moment. This Guru-disciples thing has been going on in India for thousands of years. It's been RECORDED as far as 1500 B.C. In the time of Buddha, his disciples had a mission going in Alexandria, Egypt in 330 B.C. There were Jesus, Mohhamad, etc. In the West, if I am not mistaken, there were swamis and gurus coming long before that. Swami Vivekananda attended the Parliament of Religions Congress in Chicago in 1893. Swami Yogananda was here in the thirties, or forties. If I am not mistaken, Maharaji came to the USA in 1971 So that means that for the past 25 years, thousands of people have received Knowledge, meditated on it for a bit, then left. Or, they meditated even more if they liked it or felt it was of any value. There have been hundreds of public programs and festivals. Tens of thousands of people attended and most of them came away with smiling faces. Sure, you got your handful of fanatics, weirdos and bum trippers, but that was inevitable in view of the large numbers of people involved. There were I don't know how many incarnations of Divine Light Mission that got formed, dissolved and re-formed. There was the ashram experiment and to my understanding, as soon as it proved to be uncomfortable or counter-productive for people, Maharaji himself disbanded it. So, basically, what I am saying, this thing is not new. It's almost a part of the national heritage of this country already, a country which takes pride in individual freedom, religious or otherwise, and the edict that people are free to seek happiness in whichever way they see fit as long as they do not bring harm to others in the process. And now, out of the blue, you are trying to make us believe that this is some dangerous 'cult' that should be eradicated. I mean, comparisons with the persecution of early Christians, or witch hunts in the Dark Ages immediately come to my mind! Why not persecute the Ku Klux Klan, the drug barons, or the Neo-Nazi movements in America? Guys, get real. [clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap,...ad nauseum] Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 5, 1997 at 11:18:57 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: op Subject: Re: Dangerous Cult !? Message: OP, I just read Mili's whacky tacky lacky facties and Anon's response. The fact tah you have unqailified praise for Mili here shows that, despite your earnest efforts to sustain a slightly more intelligent profile here, you're simply not thinking. But, let's deal with specifics. Mili says M disbanded the ashrams as soon as they proved counterproductive or unpleasant for people. Let's say that's true in 1976. How do you explain him shooing everyone back in -- everyone susceptible to those particular kinds of pressures -- in 1977? What was that all about? And waht about the heavy ashram satsangs he gave to keep people there? OP, your credibility seems to be something important to you. But, dear new age friend, this is the real world and there's a price. You DON'T get it all. Sometimes you gotta choose. So what's it gonna be? Truth or blind, partisan support for M? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 5, 1997 at 12:00:24 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Dangerous Cult !? Message: I don't believe anyone has ever mentioned here eradicating anything, except maybe the revisionist suppression of information that GMJ and his minions are currently undertaking because the past is too embarrassing for him. Freedom of religion (and freedom of speech) has as its base, the ability to discuss freely and criticize all aspects of any religion, including its current and former manifestations, and certainly bearing witness to personal experiences, pro and con. I intend to exercise that right and I think many more will, now, really for the first time, there is a forum to do so. I also disagree that there is just a handfull of fanatics and bum trippers who feel the way the ex-premies do who post on this site. Indeed, the fact that there are more ex-premies than there are premies would seem to be a strong statement in itself. As more ex-premies get linked up, I think there will be more discussions here. The ex-premies that I know are certainly interested in the prospect. My question is: why does the mere discussion of these issues bother you, OP and Chris so much? Why is the sharing of information, feelings and opinions a problem for you? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 5, 1997 at 12:32:56 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: Dangerous Cult !? Message: That's almost entirely illogical bullshit I'm afraid Mili. It is of course absolutely a social service to warn people of the real dangers of all persuasive movements. We are not persecuting anyone out of intolerance. We are fully paid up members of the Maharaji movement who wish to tell of our actual experiences and conclusions. I have no experience of the Klu Klux Klan and very little of Drug Barons and none of American neo-Nazi's, and whatsmore there are specific organisations that exist already to bring such obviously anti-social organisations to justice. You are making a real effort to be factual and eloquent but your common sense has evidently developed a severe malfunction. You must have just come back from a video event. Citing religious tolerance and freedom of speech as a reason for us to get off Maharaji's case is the last resort of the feeble-minded! Gee, Mr. Anonymous, reading your posts is about as much fun as watching a suicide over and over again. I am going to a video event this evening, and there is nothing you can do to stop me. We may seem feeble-minded to you, but we sure do have more fun! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 5, 1997 at 19:16:44 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Dangerous Cult !? Message: That's almost entirely illogical bullshit I'm afraid Mili. It is of course absolutely a social service to warn people of the real dangers of all persuasive movements. We are not persecuting anyone out of intolerance. We are fully paid up members of the Maharaji movement who wish to tell of our actual experiences and conclusions. I have no experience of the Klu Klux Klan and very little of Drug Barons and none of American neo-Nazi's, and whatsmore there are specific organisations that exist already to bring such obviously anti-social organisations to justice. You are making a real effort to be factual and eloquent but your common sense has evidently developed a severe malfunction. You must have just come back from a video event. Citing religious tolerance and freedom of speech as a reason for us to get off Maharaji's case is the last resort of the feeble-minded! Gee, Mr. Anonymous, reading your posts is about as much fun as watching a suicide over and over again. I am going to a video event this evening, and there is nothing you can do to stop me. We may seem feeble-minded to you, but we sure do have more fun! Oh yeah. What could be more fun tahn watching a Maharaji video? God I wish there was an emoticom for extremely heartfelt laughter! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 5, 1997 at 20:02:06 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Dangerous Cult !? Message: That's almost entirely illogical bullshit I'm afraid Mili. It is of course absolutely a social service to warn people of the real dangers of all persuasive movements. We are not persecuting anyone out of intolerance. We are fully paid up members of the Maharaji movement who wish to tell of our actual experiences and conclusions. I have no experience of the Klu Klux Klan and very little of Drug Barons and none of American neo-Nazi's, and whatsmore there are specific organisations that exist already to bring such obviously anti-social organisations to justice. You are making a real effort to be factual and eloquent but your common sense has evidently developed a severe malfunction. You must have just come back from a video event. Citing religious tolerance and freedom of speech as a reason for us to get off Maharaji's case is the last resort of the feeble-minded! Gee, Mr. Anonymous, reading your posts is about as much fun as watching a suicide over and over again. I am going to a video event this evening, and there is nothing you can do to stop me. We may seem feeble-minded to you, but we sure do have more fun! Oh yeah. What could be more fun tahn watching a Maharaji video? God I wish there was an emoticom for extremely heartfelt laughter! There! You see we can at least agree on something. ;) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 5, 1997 at 20:12:42 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: Dangerous Cult !? Message: That's almost entirely illogical bullshit I'm afraid Mili. It is of course absolutely a social service to warn people of the real dangers of all persuasive movements. We are not persecuting anyone out of intolerance. We are fully paid up members of the Maharaji movement who wish to tell of our actual experiences and conclusions. I have no experience of the Klu Klux Klan and very little of Drug Barons and none of American neo-Nazi's, and whatsmore there are specific organisations that exist already to bring such obviously anti-social organisations to justice. You are making a real effort to be factual and eloquent but your common sense has evidently developed a severe malfunction. You must have just come back from a video event. Citing religious tolerance and freedom of speech as a reason for us to get off Maharaji's case is the last resort of the feeble-minded! Did I get you right - you think the American Constitution is illogical bullshit? Freedom of association is bullshit? Just because I don't think like you of certain matters makes me feeble-minded? Not very tolerant or democratic of you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 5, 1997 at 20:30:34 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Dangerous Cult !? Message: OK you're not feeble minded.. it's an expression. No the American Constitution isn't illogical bullshit neither is Freedom of association OK? The logical conclusion (from all the examples you gave) was that to criticise MJ is perfectly acceptible. You oddly seem to suggest that 'religious tolerance' and 'freedom of speech' is a reason for us to get off Maharaji's case. a country which takes pride in individual freedom, religious or otherwise, and the edict that people are free to seek happiness in whichever way they see fit as long as they do not bring harm to others in the process
You said it. Exactly. Some people feel that MJ has brought harm
to others in the process.
|
Date: Mon, May 5, 1997 at 00:54:00 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Everyone Subject: The secretary Message: One of the posts that was lost was one I wrote the other night after watching A&E's Biography. I can not recall it all of course, nor do I have the time to try but the essence of it I would like to post before I forget. The personal secretary to Hitler for the years just prior to the end of the war spoke at lengh about that time in her life. She said it was the most facinating time in her life. She said he treated her with respect and was very polite with her. She spoke of when he committed suicide. She recalled how empty she felt afterwards and how she didn't know what to do. After she left the bunker and returned home she discovered the horrors and suffering people had endured because of Hilter. Knowledge of these events were kept from her. The deception was perfect. Her loyalty was perfect as a result. She seemed sincerely duped as she shared how she was relieved democracy now existed and hopefully another Hilter would not be able to come to power. The documentary also recounted the disillusionment of the German people in revering Hitler as God- like and trusting him ,when in fact he led them into a war they never wanted. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 5, 1997 at 03:41:55 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: The secretary Message: Viva la democracia! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 08:22:47 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: The secretary Message: Well said. Mili, I really feel taht you, more than anyone else here, understands Deena. It's almost like, I see Mili's responded to a post by Deena and I feel like I don't even have to READ hers. Know what I mean? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 08:34:37 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: The secretary Message: After she left the bunker and returned home she discovered the horrors and suffering people had endured because of Hilter. Knowledge of these events were kept from her. The deception was perfect. Her loyalty was perfect as a result. This is so common of people who 'have been duped'. I see it in myself and in others who post here. The premise is that other people dupe us. We're not responsible for being duped, since they kept the facts of the matter away from our eyes. My friends saw the hammer in the Mahatma's hand for what it was - a sign that Peace On Earth was a long way off. I blew it off as an aberration, as much as I could. But it still shook me. What I've been coming to see within myself is how responsible I am for everything that has happened to me in my life. Granted, I started out as a child. But the turning point in becoming an adult has to be the moment that I choose to accept responsibility for myself, my actions, and the beliefs that motivate me to act. I WANTED Maharaji to be God. I fully believed that someone had to take responsibility to end the personal suffering of myself and the rest of the world. I was raised to believe that there was a God who had a bizarre plan ('Love and obey me of your own free will, or roast in Hell forever'.) Although I had some difficulty with the logic behind such a divinity, I accepted the model. It fit nicely over the pattern laid down by parental rules that govern a child's behavior. I was not 'led' to MJ/DLM by anyone outside of myself. I was not 'persuaded', although I was talked to. Nobody by myself is responsible for me. The 'danger' inherent in the whole trip with Maharaji is that the 'students' not being taught by their 'Teacher' that they are responsible only to their Selves, but that their personal happiness/success in life is a result of TRANSFERRING responsiblility to a 'Greater Self' (guess who). Then the Teacher denies ever having had responsibility for the actions 'chosen' by those who trusted. Key words are inserted appropriately to deny accountability: 'if you want', 'if you choose', etc. Maharaji doesn't 'tell' people what to do, but people who don't do what he wants are distanced from the inner circle, and no longer 'blessed' with his presence. Service is given, service is taken away. I especially like the story told by someone applying to be part of the crew on his private plane. The cold, civil-servant approach to interviewing, with the accent on whether the applicant would be able to bail MJ's ass out of the fire if the pilot keeled over dead and he personally was passed out in the back. Such Love. Such Grace. Such Bullshit. The bottom line is: How much responsibility is a person
willing to take in their lives for their lives? Less than total
means you gotta find yourself a Hero. Lacking one, you have to
make one up.
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Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 08:54:51 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: The secretary Message: E tu, Brian? Has the new age gotten you too? A killer flu hits town and takes out old folks and children. Where do you place responsibility for their deaths? At the feet of the victims because others had better immune systems? That's what it sounds like when you say stuff like - 'I was not 'led' to MJ/DLM by anyone outside of myself. I was not 'persuaded', although I was talked to. Nobody by myself is responsible for me.' Beeautiful sentiment, I guess, I mean if that's what you like, but highly fanciful. You went to the circus alright, but there wouldn't have been a circus without all the clowns and animal trainers. How 'bout the ringleader? Don't forget him! Our responsibility, as you so rightly suggest, was for being susceptibble to Maharaji's get spiritually rich quick scheme. But don't get carreid away. HE was the fraud artist, not us. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 09:17:39 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: The secretary Message: Maharji is definately a con artist. So was Michener while he sat reading cards. Those 'conned' can't just sidestep responsibility by pointing to the sign at the front of the tent and saying 'That's what it said'. If you make the point that Mili and Chris CHOOSE to not see what's happening within their lives, then you have to accept my choosing to accept responsibility for my decisions too. Hitler's secretary wasn't chained to her desk. She could have looked out of the bunker and seen for herself. She chose to trust. I chose to trust, as did the fortune seekers who selected that tent over the one with the bearded lady. You also made a choice at some point to ACCEPT what was on the sign. I don't think your anger toward Maharaji is wrong. You feel it. I just think that it's mis-directed away from yourself.
Your criticism of him and the loyalists that do or don't post
here is right. He continues to spout crap about himself
being key to other's happiness. They continue to defend it and
believe it and excuse their personal responsibility for what
happens to people who believe them and follow along like sheep.
Hmmm... I sense a problem with that if I maintain that others had
no responsibility for choices I made. I'll give you that. I'm
gonna have to reflect on that some more. Sheeesh....
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Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 10:25:13 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: The secretary Message: Hi Brian- thanks for responding to what I wrote. It feels so good to share ideas and not just spouting off by myself. What you said about our responsibility is right on. Mike (Info-Cult) spoke to me about a person taking part in their own manipulation, self manipulation. He brought it up because of the guilr alot of ex-cult members feel about recruiting other people. He said it is only with kids that one is manipulating. And the stuff about no longer being' blessed ' and 'being distanced from his inner circle' is right on too. Yes, it is perfect how it is all 'if you choose' But you can't hide the smell of a skunk just by painted it's stripe black so it appears to look like a cat. I for one am having a diffi CULT time getting the smell out...you know how long it takes to get skunk smell off? How 'bout you? Brian, I include you in the people I'd like to personally talk with sometime. I don't know why but wouldn't it be great to have a convention? As long as Mili , OP and Chris didn't know where, or maybe we could hire security... I know a premie who probably would do it, he is such a bliss ninny and wouldn't know the difference. Seriously though, there ARE ex-cult conventions. There is one in May in Phili but I don't think I can afford it right now. I know I can'.t. Maybe we can all get together for a convention someday? What do you say Scott ? Wanna help organize one? ONLY ONE THING. WHY IS THIS SUCH A MALE DOMINATED FORUM? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 10:37:48 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: The secretary Message: ONLY ONE THING. WHY IS THIS SUCH A MALE DOMINATED FORUM? Maybe because it's mostly run on testosterone, and you and I seem to be the only ones who are willing to be doused by it's acidity. If there were a little more real discussion, real response to the posts, and less darts thrown at every sensitive spot, maybe more people of all persuasions would post here. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 10:40:43 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: The secretary Message: Deena, This - ' As long as Mili , OP and Chris didn't know where, or maybe we could hire security... I know a premie who probably would do it, he is such a bliss ninny and wouldn't know the difference.' is funny! As for this question: ONLY ONE THING. WHY IS THIS SUCH A MALE DOMINATED FORUM? I think it's a good one. Why do you think this is so? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 10:42:34 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: op Subject: Re: The secretary Message: What do you mean 'real discussion.'? YOU'RE the one who keeps quibbling over them meaning of words -- yours or others' -- and thus miring the dabate in needless squabbles. Really, OP, have you no shame? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 10:42:55 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: op Subject: Re: The secretary Message: Maybe because it's mostly run on testosterone, and you and I seem to be the only ones who are willing to be doused by it's acidity. Yuk!
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Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 11:16:07 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: The secretary Message: You mean I actually made a funny? Did you laugh really loud like when I read some of your posts? Or was it just a chuckle? My thought on why it is such a male dominated forum is that despite what Mili imagines me to be, I am a very attractive vibrant women who has the abiltty to seduce men even over the net, sight unseen. And this is despite op's attempts to sicken all my suitors! But all kiddin aside, I don't know. My first husband left MJ a month after receiveing knowledge and so did my best friend's hubbie. Which makes me think women are so use to abuse they are more comfortable in it. Thinking of my ex makes me realize why my present husband is so fearful I'll leave. Considering after my ex left I left him, it would stand to reason that despite my ability to be duped I have some hidden strengh to stick to what I believe. It would appear that at the cost of living with a anti-guru wife he chooses me over Maharaji. Perhaps he knows the emptiness he'll experience is life without the flesh and blood love...not some fantasy love . Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 12:26:40 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: The secretary Message: Understanding that GMJ is a fraud and saying so, and understanding that he created an environment where people got ripped off, is NOT saying that the individual had no responsibility. It is not that black and white. BUT you have to take into consideration that GMJ set up a closed system where your own critical thought processes were shut down or ignored: NEVER LEAVE ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND. So, you were stuck. If you trusted GMJ and did what he said, you, by definition, relinquished RESPONSIBILITY for yourself. In retrospect, that was an extremely foolish and destructive thing to do because you remained emotionally a child, and maybe I and others have defects in our personalities that made us susceptible, but that doesn't excuse GMJ's respnsiblity either. I think the ex-premies here are willing to accept responsibility for their part in this, at least I am, they just want GMJ to do the same. That, apparently, he has been unwilling to do and instead just pretends like it never happened. For me that will never do. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 12:42:54 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: JW Subject: Re: The secretary Message: I think we all agree that we took part in our own manipulation and that is how we got out because we were able to be part of the whole process.of seeing the manipulation.....and I don't think any of us are willing to accept the responsibility that MJ dodges in all of this. I don't believe his evasion will ever do for anyone of us who feel duped. I wonder i he misses all that love and gratitude which up untill so recently poured out night and day from me for him????? You'd almost think it would shake him a bit if the so-called Master is nothing without the student, something he constantly tells us. Oh yeah and the celebration and freedom I'm feeling is nothing also because without the Master the student is nothing. After all it is a triangle...the student the master and the knowledge. ...can't have any one side missing. Oh yeah he also said that the master doesn't need to teach, he can just go live alone in nature if he wants...my, my, he always covers all his bases so nicely doesn't he. Contradicton is a great way to evade everything, can't be pinned down... supposedly. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 6, 1997 at 20:34:14 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: The secretary Message: Yes, it was a funny! I've been out of town in a trial all day (won!) and really, all I could think of was 'Deena made a funny!'. I tried to weave it into my closing argument but the judge yelled at me to focus my argument. Who do you think you are, anyway? Chris?' I didn't know what to say so I grinned. That really pissed him off. On another point, I've hired someone to read Captive Hearts for me. You understand, don't you? I've just been too busy recalibrating my brain for A Course in Miracles. It's going to take a lot of work but I'm already forgiving myself for making the committment. Hey, it's a process. Seriously, Deena, the book looks absolutely okay, not the least offensive but just not profound. That's just my take and I WILL read much more it for sure. As for all the guys, let's face it -- we're not too many in any event. Where are all the other ex-premies, I sometimes ask myself. Or even believers for that matter. I can't believe that the faithful are all that happy just posting their one-shot inanities over on Harlan's page. Ever notice how they don't talk to one another there? Indeed, they come HERE to talk to each other. By the way, anyone wanting to do a little service to Satan might post a friendly hello on Harlan's page, just to get a rise out him if for no higher cause. As I've said before, he's cut me off and won't link here despite Scott's link to him. Speaking of links, Scott, how come you never used any of my suggestions? You theists! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 05:47:13 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: The secretary Message: Perhaps he knows the emptiness he'll experience is life without the flesh and blood love...not some fantasy love. Hadn't really thought of this consciously in all these posts, but reading these words reminded me of another reason that I first searched the web for sites like this. I had always felt that my own personal fantasy would probably have to be shared to be understood by anyone in my life. It bothered my that I couldn't just drag her along to 7:30 satsang at the ol' ashram. As for why this forum is dominated by men, the entire Internet is. Check Usenet and you'll see that's true of the greater majority of the forums. Probably has to do with the 'mouse' not being called 'the clicky-thing' [testosterone snicker].
As for contacting me, my email address is: brian@worldnetoh.com
(decided to use the same handle that Mom got me started on as a
child). Feel free to write, anyone. You too, MJ. I really do want
to return to your Lotus Feet. I need a whiff through these more
experienced nostrils. %) I won't ask any specific questions...
Just grin and gush is all... Trust me [gushy grin].
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