Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum I Archive # 4 | |
From: May 14, 1997 |
To: May 21, 1997 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
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Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 02:34:25 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Cooper Email: To: Everyone Subject: It's Visak day !! Message: It's Visak day in Singapore. Today's a public holiday to celebrate the birth of the Bhudda. I've just come back from Orchard road and its shops open as normal. Lots of people are on the beach having barbecues and there is not the slightest sign that anything spiritual is going on ( I haven't been to any of the temples today though). For once I've got ttime to type. Deena Jim OP Chris Milli how do ypu do it ? Have you got phenomenal typing speeds, secretaries or are you all unemployed ? I find it really hard to find the time to write here although I really want to, a bit like sex really. Any road up here's a bit from Moral animal that I enjoyed You can see the foundation in the daily life of chimpanzees. Look at the structure of their society, then imagine a huge growth in their intelligence - in memory, cunning, long range planning, language- and suddenly you can picture whole buildings full of well dressed chimps: office buildings, capitol buildings, all functioning as they do now, for better or worse. Of the lavish attention that chimpanzees pay to status, much is merely ritual: greetings humbly offered to a social superior. Chimps often bow down and may literally kiss their master's feet.. I haven't got anything much to say except that Jim seems to keep making what I consider to be quite reasonable questions which the premies who write here seem to go out of their way not to answer them. Come on guys wether you are a premie or consider yourself an ex premie all of this stuff was or is the centre of our life, lets not piss about, there are some straight questions that need to be answered . Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 03:41:11 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: It's Visak day !! Message: Have you read 'The Naked Ape' and 'The Human Zoo' by Desmond Morris? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 08:29:02 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: It's Visak day !! Message: Is Visak something like the Indian Baisakhi? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 08:53:50 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: It's Visak day !! Message: What are the average living costs in Singapore? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 02:19:13 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Everyone Subject: Nothing New Message: Ho hum. This has all been done before, by Mata Ji and Bal Bhagwan Ji. Campaign of defamation of character. I just meditated a little while ago - that Love is so fresh and beautiful, every time! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 23:37:34 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: OP, your slip is showing Message: OP, dear friend, can you see why it's so exciting for someone like me to get someone like you to say this below. Allow me to comment: 'Seriously, now - before you gloat yourself into a state of samadhi. [Boy did you feel deflated! And why not? You knew that I had you, fair and square, and you couldn't help but empathize. Don't you wish, this one time, you'd bet black instead of red?] Who told you that Maharaji unequivocally accepted the book? We know that within a few years of its publication he denounced it and asked for it to be pulled. [What's the phrase, 'grasping for straws'? Or is it 'authentic, authorized'? You're desparately fishing for a crack in the aquarium, little lobster-ji, but it isn't there. The book spelled out the most precious little aspect of our premie religion: Maharaji was the Lord and he had the power to make SAINTS! These were his DISCIPLES who, like the great Guru Charanand who squeezed your eyeballs, had his GRACE and thus could IMPART his ageless KNOWLEDGE. Remember? Does any of this ring a bell with you? Come on, OP, come on baby! As for Maharaji's 'denunciation' of the book, what the fuck are you talking about? He PULLED all the old publications, YEARS after this book came out, YEARS after it was sold, year after year, on every DLM publication table in the world, at every program, every festival, every satsang. Years, OP, Years. Please! Besides, aren't you the one who doesn't like to speculate? Who told you Maharaji did anything BUT unequivocally accept his 'authentic, authorized' bio? And, OP, lest we let you get awat with an unnecessary wiggle word, let's talk about 'unequivocal' a bit. This explanation of the holy process of imparting Knowledge was not some small fact. It was the main event. Are you trying to SPECULATE that maybe Maharaji saw that part and frowned a bit and said 'ah shit, Durga Ji, my little Goddess of Love, they got the Knowledge thing wrong again!'? What'd she say? 'Don't worry, Maharaji, my Lord and Saviour, they just messed up a little.'? Sorry, OP, time for the Guru Papers] I stated before that the message has not changed. There is no reason that the container surrounding the message cannot change. We are not static beings, neither is Maharaji. He doesn't want to be put into a box that can be measured, defined, characterized, weighed, compared and delineated. [JW used the word sophistry but that's just becuase I taught it to him during one of my ex-premie militia training sessions at our Camp Mind, just outside Zagreb. Really, you should come some time. Everyone's walking around with bulletguns. Sorry, I'm losing it. Where was I? Oh yeah. OP, this foofah above is shameless. Remember how Maharaji sold us on the ageless, timeless Knowledge? Bigger than all religions, the true path of human life? Remember how he told us again and again how it was IMPARTED from this one to that? Come on, you have to admit that Chalres Cameron did as good a job as any of us could have to get Maharaji's story straight. THAT, dear OP, was the message. This ain't no container. This is the heart of the matter. What you call 'container' is central to the trip. If that's NOT the message, what is -- Maharaji? Is he the Message? Forget the Guru Papers. When was the last time you read 1984? As for Maharaji not wanting to be, well you've pretty well eliminated everything but 'worship' from your list, give it up, bud. All you're saying is 'Maharaji doesn't want to be criticized.' Well, excuse me! If only I'd known. I'm soooo sorry. I guess I'll leave now, 'kay. Sorry, again. Give me a break! You say you're not a 'static being'. Then don't act like one! Allow your mind to change with the weight of the case before it. Capiche?] There is no Bible of Knowledge. There is no Acts of the Apostles, no Psalms, no Book of Revelations. No Sutras, Upanishads, etc. etc. etc. Rules don't stick. [If rules don't stick I guess thta goes for all the rules, huh? Like rules of common sense, rules of natural laws, rules of accountability, rules of ethics. How about the fucking commandments? My friend KILLED HIMSELF BECUASE OF THOSE FUCKING COMMANDMENTS! DO YOU HEAR ME????? So, please, once again, it's a little late to present Maharaji as the Libertarian candidate for the Millenium (sorry, no pun intended). Finally on this point, you say no sutras -- how many fucking times did YOU sing arti, OP?] That I can't find an answer to your question doesn't mean either that there is none or that it needs one. But go ahead. Gloat if you want. [OP, I'd hear you better if you pulled your head out of the sand. Don't play a Chrissie on me. Just because you might not LIKE the answer doesn't menat there isn't one. You say 'gloat' because you know how thin your ice is here. It's the closest you can get to saying 'yeah, I guess you're right'] We each see what we see. That's all there is to it. We're sitting on different sides of the same coin. I've never claimed to have all the answers, so don't count on my word as final. I see as much as far as my own consciousness can radiate, which is not terribly far. Maybe you have a much greater range than I, but we cover different angles of the universe. [Ah yes, wouldn't life be easier if we were autistic, or at least solipsistic. Or just a nice old premie who never meant no one no harm, don't look to me for any answers, ask him. Look, I did ask that asshole and he ain't talking. You are. So, please, don't seel yourself short. SPECULATE!] What bothers me is that you are making a concerted attempt to destroy Maharaji. He is not making a concerted attempt to destroy you. [Care to answer this one yourself? If not, read the last thousand replies to Mili everytime he spouts such stupidity] Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 08:41:01 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: OP, your slip is showing Message: Look, idiot, the Knowledge delivers and Maharaji is true on his promise. Is that so hard to understand? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 21:47:29 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: OP, I'm waiting Message: OP, I'm still waiting for a few answers from you. Let's re-examine what you said: 'As to your question to me: I don't know. As I mentioned before, sometimes I feel like all the attention M showered on me WAS because I was such a skeptic - I demanded all sorts of proof, and it all came to me. Maybe it would have come in another way if I'd shown up in this day and age. But as I've also stated before, I dislike speculation. Things happen - the movement is from here on, not a remaking of the past. What I can tell you is of those who HAVE received Knowledge these days, and there seems to be (I really don't have statistics to back this up) a higher percentage of people who stick around with M running the Knowledge sessions himself. Knowledge from a video? Why not? Did you think the Mahatma's hand was a magical instrument that opened the doorway to your third eye? The only contact was for the first technique, the rest was explained. There was a time for questions. The video shows, on a large screen, M doing the techniques. If he is in the room with you, you see him also doing them in person. If M is there, and you have a question, you ask him. If you have a problem with a technique, there is an instructor in the room who will assist you with it. Maharaji also walks around the room watching how people do the techniques.' You now have had the benefit of re-reading WIGM? and seeing that, contrary to your premature dismissal (which must be a bit embarrasing for you), Knowledge did indeed depend on 'touch.' You first argued two alternative explanations -- maybe Maharaji never stood behind this renengade 'authentic, authorized' bio or, if that doesn't work, he changed the timeless path. Even saying this much must be extremely difficult for you as you state above ' I dislike speculation'. I guess that's why you speculated with such relish about O.J. huh? Or why you specualte so easily as to how the world, and not Maharaji, got this Knowledge thing wrong. You, my friend, are full of shit. Now, moving on, I must ask you to go against your ture nature one last time and specualte a little further. Just imagine that Maharaji's not the Lord. Imagine that he's a transparent cult leader from the '60s, one who couldn't keep a fucking thing together. His family's a clutter of miscues and secrets (Claudia's kid, the Holy Family, M's affairs, Durga Ji, The Goddess of Love's, affairs, his own son Hansi calling his father a cult leader, alcoholism , whatever). His organization has shifted names and addresses not in an effort to bring peace to the world so much as to avoid scrutiny. The guru can't even keep his teaching straight and has to recall all his old grandiose speeches. Come on, OP, SPECULATE with me abit, okay? Imagine that you were programmed long ago to never doubt Maharaji. Can you imagine that? Imagine as well that, far from avoiding specualtion, you find yourself instinctually jumping to the most implausible reasons for anything that begins to threaten your cult leader's artifice. See yourself yet? Look, OP, something's rotten in Premiedom. Look at the company you're in -- Mili the barbarian (who also remidns me of one of the 'smegley brothers' from SCTV. You know, a 'wild and crazy' kind of goof), Chris the limp smiley, face. I don't mean to brag but I have to to make my next point. OP, honestly, who do you respect more here? Those guys or us ex-premies? Who do you think is really willing to look at all this thing unflinchingly? Why do you think you're the only premie who can string a half-decent sentence together who comes to Maharaji's defense? Time to face facts, OP. The facts are that you do indeed love to speculate. You're also the first one to say you don't have all the answers. So why be so stubborn? Why not let a little logic flow your way? Give up the hypocrisy. It's below you and I'll call you on it everytime. Allow rationality to lead you a bit. Speulate openly. What if.......? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 21:57:58 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: OP, I'm waiting Message: Oh yeah, I forgot what I wanted to say. Ask yourself where this Knowledge from video thing goes. What if the videos get stolen or copied? If I had a copy of the Maharaji knowledge session -- there, in all his glory, is the Lord himself squeezing his eyeballs -- and I showed it to someone, would they be getting Knowledge? What if Bal Bhagwan Ji showed it to people? Or would it NOT work? What's the magic, OP? Is it Maharaji walking around answering questions? Is that that special Lord ingredient? Now, obviously that's all TOO STUPID FOR WORDS! Really, I can't believe we're even talking about such idiocy. But anyways, let me try the other side. Maybe there is NO MAGIC anymore. Is that it? A few simple techniques to meditate. Secrecy just for the hell of it. To make sure Maharaji walks around. Well, if that's the case, how DOES it work on those few occasions where Maharaji's not there to walk around? And beleive me, if your fat little fraud could avoid going to these miserable knowledge sessions here there and everywhere he would. Sooner or later, as you well know, he's going to get really bored with this shit. At that time, as you also know, he'll change it so anyone can just plop a video in and there it is. No, that's no good. No control. How about this? Only very special people can plop the videos in? Come on, OP, speculate with me! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 22:20:07 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: OP, I'm waiting Message: Jim: 'Chris the limp smiley, face. ' Oh yeah, you sound like you need a spanking sonny. You're a fine example of the downside of the legal profession. A wimpy jerk with a bullhorn who thinks society owes you a stage and protection. A laughable example of so called 'rationality'. How many times have you shouted 'fire'? Rant on Jimmy boy. CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 22:27:41 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: OP, I'm waiting Message: Jim: 'Chris the limp smiley, face. ' Oh yeah, you sound like you need a spanking sonny. You're a fine example of the downside of the legal profession. A wimpy jerk with a bullhorn who thinks society owes you a stage and protection. A laughable example of so called 'rationality'. How many times have you shouted 'fire'? Rant on Jimmy boy. CD Sorry Chris. That should have been 'smiley-face'. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 22:54:12 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: OP, I'm waiting Message: Chris, Why do you keep talking about my being a lawyer. This world's hard enough without religious prosecution, don't you think? God, and the way you kept asking JW what he does. What the fuck... are you the librarian of ad hominem arguments? Now, having said that I want to say something a little different and hope, just hope, you'll hear me in the spirit intended. Chris, old bud, old friend, dear brother at his holy lotus feet, contrary to your worst impressions of me, I do not really enjoy making fun of you. Deena does. She put me up to it. No, seriously, I really, honestly wish this never happened. Oh sure, I think Maharaji's a fraud and I would hope to persuade you and any other believer that that's the case. But Chris it's a war of IDEAS, not people. Can't we have a fair debate? Look, I know I'll win. I have to. But is that my fault? Maharaji's a textbook case of contradictions on the grandest scale imaginable. YOU didn't create that mess, why do you think you have to defend it? And if you do, why not just defend it as far as your intelligence lets you? Any further, it's not fair to yourself. Let Maharaji do his own bidding. Okay, am I making any sense? Don't you feel the same way yourself? Wouldn't you like a little more respect around here? You can't get it by avoiding and Chris, if you've done anything, you've avoided. That's why I call you a 'smiley-face.' Face it, Chris, you've ducked and dodged incessantly. But that doesn't mean you're stuck there. You know, in a lot of ways, you're already a step ahead of most believers. You've got the guts to buy and read the Guru Papers. You're not afraid to at least hang out in this festering leper colony of doubt. That's got to be better than your typical post on Harlan's page: ' Dear people, MAHARAJI IS THE PERFECT MASTER OF THE TIME'. Maybe you agree, maybe you think Maharaji IS the whatchamacallit. But this a discussion area for people who disagree with that proposition. Something keeps bringing you here. What is it? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 22:57:46 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: OP, I'm waiting Message: Me again. Chris, when I said: 'You know, in a lot of ways, you're already a step ahead of most believers. You've got the guts to buy and read the Guru Papers. You're not afraid to at least hang out in this festering leper colony of doubt. That's got to be better than your typical post on Harlan's page: ' Dear people, MAHARAJI IS THE PERFECT MASTER OF THE TIME'. I meant THE typical quote, not yours specifically. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 02:25:31 (EDT)
Poster: Mili to Chris Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: OP, I'm waiting Message: Chris, and everybody, read the thread under 'morning smile'. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 19:09:21 (EDT)
Poster: PS Email: To: Everyone Subject: Delusion Message: Like any good delusion, once you accept the basic premise, i.e., Maharaji is the perfect master, then everything else follows quite logically. Premies had two rules: 1. Maharaji is the perfect master/lord of the universe. Therefore whatever he does is perfect. 2. If what he does confuses, offends, makes no sense, etc., it is do to a lack of understanding and you should see rule one. There is a lack of critical thinking on the part of premies and it occurs in such a subtle manner that I believe it is not even noticed. I should know(received knowledge 1971, went to India, 3 years in ashram doing PR). Faded away in the early 80s. Went to program for first tome in 15 years in 12/96 in Long Beach. Had to deal with old ghosts. I was surprised at how much attraction there still was. Very seductive. More later. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 20:09:24 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: PS Subject: Re: Delusion Message: Can't wait. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 22:02:38 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: PS Subject: Re: Delusion Message: Me too! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 17:05:01 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Everyone Subject: If you can... Message: If you can separate the message from the messanger..... well in Maharaji's case, it just doesn't work does it? In the realm of knowledge, that experience doesn't exist without the master and the master's grace. It isn't just reminders and inspiration. It is a relationship not unlike a devoted dog has with it's master. If the master falls ill, the dog will lie down beside it's master and deny itself food and water because of it's loyalty to it's master. If the master dies, a faithful dog may still lie there until it too dies from dehydration and starvation. Now you tell me, who benifets in this relationship? That same dog will endure abuse and deny it's own needs repeatedly to serve it's master. Who benifets? Is it the master or the dog? I have a husky. She is my friend, and she respects me, but no one owns her. This is typical of the breed. In the situation described above she wouldn't wait around because she still has her instinct to survive. Me, I prefer to live this life like her. Never faithful or loyal to the point of blind devotion. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 17:32:45 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: If you can... Message: I know what you mean Deena, about that level of devotion and who really benefits. I have a Dalmatian, and I know he loves me and is devoted to me, and I love him, but I know I could abuse him and he would stay with me nonetheless, and he would probably put up with about anything, he is so loyal to me. He even howls for about 2-3 minutes when I leave the house without him (so my neighbors say). He just wants to be with me. But I would rather cut off my arm than ever hurt him. His loyalty is so unquestioning. So, I have to be very, very careful never to abuse that loyalty. It becomes my responsibility, because he is unlikely, because of his devotion, to be able to free himself from me if I abused him. A good master would take that responsibility. On the contrary, I think GMJ USED my devotion for his own benefit, and took virtually no responsibility to care and guide those like me who were unquestioningly devoted to him. Hence, he was not a very good master and those of us who got away from him are really able to see it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 18:29:52 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: If you can... Message: Arf, Arf! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 20:21:55 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: If you can... Message: This time, Mili, you're right. Deena, this is an excellent point. If the message and messenger are inseparable you're talking pure Orwell. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 16:27:40 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Everyone Subject: Jim's Mental Diahhrea Message: Sorry for the block letters but I really wanted to somehow underline this post. Am I the only one who thinks that the 'laying on of hands' stuff from the book Who is Guru Maharaj Ji? provides the coup de grace in this ongoing argument? t's simply unfair to compare me to Mili. Okay, JW, but Maharaji not getting all the states capitols right is one thing. Not knowing the first thing about his supposed process for revealing truth is another. Check out the passage from WIGM? I just put up on that top thread 'Am I the only one?'. You, too, OP. By the way, am I the only one who noticed how OP seemed a little 'caught' when confronted with this old Maharaji dogma? She never said she was surpirsed anyone said stuff like that. How could she? It was the only party line. Indeed, she herslef spouted it several times aday just like the rest of us. No, she was surpirsed that there was still some record of it that she'd have to deal with. Did you notice that?Yes, we can both be harsh. That's superficial. I don't avoid points and issues. He does. As for trying to add up M's pros and cons, you're missing the whole problem. Sit down a moment. I want to explain something to you. With normal people, in normal situations, we do kind of what you're talking about. We sus up our experiences with someone and decide, all things considered, if we like or trust them. We can't do that with Maharaji. He's like the Wizard of Oz. He's made some incredibly extravagant claims and caused a whole lot of people to do a lot accordingly. It's complete bullshit to try to judge him like a regular guy -- (did he smile at you last time you saw him? Was he polite at the bank? Gee, I like his suit). The question is IS HE FOR REAL? Like, who cared if the Wizard of Oz was a nice guy or even if some of his advice was true? The real question was the first one: where'd he get his authority from? Okay, here's the aprt of my question above that you didn't deal with. Do you think there was any tacit message for all of us who thought we were serving the Living Lord (who said THIS TIME they'd never crucify him) in the fact that Maharaji neither delivered Fakiranand to the law nor publicly denounced this crazed, dangerous, misguided act of devotion? Indeed, don't you think Maharaji left it pretty much up in the air just how one should respond when , we have to look carefully at what he's said and what he's done. He presented a supposedly unchangeable holy doctrine one way. Fine. Where'd he get the authority to do that? Then he changed it. Fine. Where'd he get the authority to do that? Throughout he pretended that he is beyond accountabilty for anything. Okay, same question -- where'd he get the authority to do that? Remember all those Q & A's back in them good ol days, Old Premie? Back then M at least pretended that he was accountable on some level. Read WIGM? Read the questions. Read where he says that he has the power to save the world, not in years, not even in months but 'very, very, very, very,very soon.' Back then he acted as if we could talk with him. Well I've got a few questions for him now. AS DO YOU. Where is he? He's hiding. Now, where'd he get the authority to do THAT? By the way, please read my post above where I quote WIGM? a little more extensively than you do on the issue of how Knolwedge is imparted. OP, this thing stinks and you know it. Please, if you ahven't already, read the 'cult' thread below, particularly where OP starts explaining the reason for Maharaji's secrecy in 'giving' Knolwdge. My point is simply this -- the book relies on all sorts of scriptural back-up for the cardinal proposition in the first phase of the Maharaji religion that one receives Knolwedge through the direct, physical contact from an authorized agent of the Lord. Maharaji never quibbled with that chapter. How could he? It was his teaching. Now, he's dropped that 'ageless, timeless, universal truth' and still insists on secrecy. Why? So Maharaji can EXPLAIN the techniques properly? You know, I followed O.J.'s criminal trial about as passionately as I'm into this Maharaji thing. I know, they're so different in a million ways but what can I tell you? I did. At the end of the day I thought the prosecution could have won the case with one bit of evidence. I even called them and passed along my advice (along with countless others of course). Too bad they didn't take it. And what was so insurmountable for O.J.? Of all the evidence what was the one thing that REALLY screwed him (besdie all the blood)? It was the cell phone call. O.J. retrieved his cell from his Bronco in front of the limo driver. He also made a call from it at 10:13 p.m. or some time like that. AFTER he claimed he had gone to MacDonald's in the limo. AFTER he claimed he'd gone back into the house to nap and get ready to leave. See? Now, as Mahatma Rajeshwar used to say, SIMILIARLY, Maharaji's 'authentic authorized' bio -- more than that, his official take-it-to-the-world document, the one with his bold promise plastered accross the back 'I DECLARE I WILL ESTABLISH PEACE IN THE WORLD! -- says you can only get Knowledge through the laying on of hands. So.... if THAT wasn't true, just how much of his 'golden' message was literally worth the paper it was printed on? I don't know. Those poor black jurors got hoodwinked. They refused to look at the evidence. How about you premies? Got any guts, OP? Mili? Chris? Chris, you in particular, are such a joke. Everytime you get squarely confronted with a hard question you go so far as to say 'that's a complicated issue' and then retreat to your inanities. Mili, you're no better. OP, you blow hot and cold. But now, I wonder, do you have any mental integrity at all? If not, I'd like to know. Then, fair is fair, we wouldn't have to waste our time talking with one another. The only reason people try to reason with one another is because they believe that they're reasoning with someone open to reason. If you're not, OP, please let me know and I won't waste any mroe time in this regard. Thanks. Another spiritual aphorism? OP, you're absolutely right. I DO tend to write Mili off a little early. Thanks, sis. It's so beautiful the way we can all come together as individual BEINGS in the holy name and really see the spirit of love and not eh mind, surrender, do what you like, no matter, newspeak, newspeak, newthink, nothink. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 16:59:20 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Jim's Mental Diahhrea Message: Underlined or not, you mis-spelled Diarrhea. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 20:13:45 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Jim's Mental Diahhrea Message: Mili, I'm speechless. You're caught me at my game. What can I say? No... I realize I've said too much already. Mili, I'm sorry. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 13:51:32 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: morning smile Message: Here's the latest from Harlan's page: ' Why do I cry when I am feeling so happy? Am I ever going to get used to this?' Mili, care to explain premie mood swings to her? Come on, man, why doesn't anyone TALK over there? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 16:08:40 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: morning smile Message: I'll bet you were dissapointed that she didn't leave an E-mail address so that you could harass her. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 20:14:34 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: morning smile Message: Actually, yes. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 02:23:29 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: morning smile Message: Actually, yes. Yeah, I knew you were a sick sadistic bastard from very early on. JW, Deena, Scott - here you have it - this is the company that you've been keeping! You couldn't fool Bobby for long, though. He's seen psychos before and he was on to you pretty quick. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 11:03:54 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Everyone Subject: Harmful Message: I'm finding that I spend less and less time reading posts here because there is so much else I want to be enjoying. When I was a premie, if I would have found this forum, I would have weighed the time I have to practise, with the time it takes to be here, and I would have chosen practise. I would have thought MJ would find this all a waste of this precious existence. This morning, as I was waking up, my son's (no, he is not Gunther, by the way) radio alarm went off and a love song was playing... All I really want to do is be with you All I really need to do is be with you I remembered how much I loved to wake up remembering MJ by hearing, put into song, my deepest feelings. I remembered how when I had my first darshan I asked MJ to please take my mind. I remembered praying for him to teach me devotion. To free me of any doubt. He was my life. I loved this part of Arti... You are my father you are my mother you are my brother you are my friend you are riches you are wisdom you are my all my lord to me Oh Guru Maharaj ji my life is within you from you I have come to you now I go... To me it was all so sweet. It was the purpose of this life and I felt grateful I was able to recognize MJ as my master. When he made it all more acceptable to the west and didn't ask aspirats to 'Leave no room for doubt' I accepted this as wonderful. Whenever he did anything, it was wonderful to me. But somewhere, a gut feeling, started to rise up and became more and more noticeable. I had become so detached from my humaness that so much had escaped me .I saw how the demands he made on his premies who were serving him were always 'MJ wanted this done yesterday' mentality. How premies would do anything for him to the point of burnout and denying their own needs. Then I would hear how he didn't want that but it would continue despite meetings and premie practise. For me, the harm was more noticealbe in my marriage and my son's mental health. The atmosphere of the exclusiveness of what his parents held dear, whether it was spoken of or not. . Things that I was seeing were not comfortable to look at and I rationalized alot of it for the longest time. Eventually the only thing in my life that broulght me joy and fulfillment was anything to do with MJ. My husband supported my devotion and when MJ spoke of MIra etc. and his own experience of telling his family this was his priority, etc. I felt inspired to continue. I ignored the contradictions. I embraced the duality in my life of -this is mind and this is heart. I judged eveything this way. I worked as a teacher assistant for disabled and troubled teens. I started two successful businesses with my husband. Our neighbors and friends like and respect us. Everything seemed fine in appearences. But something else was occuring. Something was definately amiss. I feel so free now. I still feel that peace inside of me and I feel very alive. I appreciate everything. I see now I gave MJ credit for so much in my life. His grace and blessings were the source before. That is not my experience now. I never could have believed that MJ was alcoholic before. I was someone that premies on this forum would have enjoyed being with because loving MJ was my life. Now I'm able to look at what other people experienced. I listen to the harm in their lives. It is not difficult for me to trust JW or Jim's sharing of events that hurt them or people they knew. I do believe that MJ could easily be an alcoholic because I see no reason for this friend of JW to lie.Or for Bob Mishler to lie. Or anyone else either. But that isn't why I distrust MJ. I don't trust him because the master - devotee relationship is vunerable to these imperfections by it's very existence and despite knowledge over the years of the harm he has continued to do what he does. And premies will continue to defend him. It reminds me of the people who defended Marshall Applewhite, an extreme and rare example of what happens when someone has power over people's lives...when they trust without questioning. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 12:27:32 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Harmful Message: I still feel that peace inside of me and I feel very alive. I appreciate everything. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 12:36:07 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Everyone Subject: Re: Harmful Message: I'd like to add a bit to what I posted because I don't know if I will have time to visit here in the next while. Today I am working on the computer so I have the opportunity when I take a break. I wanted to share the fact that I think one of the things that makes the accusations of certain premies so believable when it comes to Maharaji being an alcoholic is that both Mishler and the ex-lawyer of MJ could have damaged him far worse by making accusations of sexual misconduct (since some of his instructors, including his brother, were accused of this). I mean, if their only motive was to slander his good name, that would seem to be a better way. But Mishler, when asked in the radio interview if MJ committed any sexual misconduct, denied any such possibiltties. And neither does the ex-lawyer accuse him this way. When I read Mishler's experiences of being with MJ drunk I felt like I was being kicked in the stomach. It stabbed at my heart so that I felt the pain. I mean, I had already left but I had no reason to believe that the master who I followed and felt was more conscious than I was, would anesthetize himself. I left because I felt that the ultimate wasn't as he had taught me, 'the realm of knowlege and the master'. My experience was showing me that he wasn't needed to experience fulfillment or contentment in my life. That I had been attributing all the love in my life to him and that just simply didn't have anything to do with him . I no longer could give him the credit and was pleasently surprised to discover that it wasn't empty not being in the world of knowledge and the master. The harm came from attributing it to him. My husband was carried out of the ashram physically in the 70's because he burnt out so badly. He went to a non premie's farm for a few weeks to recover. He discoverd life was empty without the realm of knowledge and the master. He rationalized all the abuse he experienced and witnessed as having nothing to do with MJ, and went back to live in the ashram until it closed in '82. When faced with Mishler's interview, he remarked to it as only rumor. When confronted with the possibility of who he once called,' Lord of the Universe' being drunk, he replied it only made it more real for him...Maharaji's humanity. He rationalizes the fact he loves MJ more than anything, including me, because that love is the ultimate in this life. And yet the' pinch me it hurts' reality of being humanly loved by an ex-premie is something he doesn't want to lose. As devoted as he is, he knows if he throws away his family and then down the road, if he realizes that this is a cul,t then he won't be able to live with his decsion. I was shocked at the possibility that other ex-premie's had witnessed what they claimed to. But after considering all the information and objectively looking at what I had been involved with all these ;years, I realized it was definately possible. I experienced anxiety facing what at first I didn't want to believe was possible. It meant having to negate so much of the past 23 years of my life. It is not easy to admit that I was duped. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 12:43:20 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Everyone Subject: Re: Harmful Message: I read what Mili posted and it reminded me of what my husband said when I described what I feel. He rationalized that it must all the hours (given that I practised as MJ recommends, more than 1 hour everyday) of practise...he added that it sounded like I realized knowledge. He also said that the effect of knowledge would wear off because I wasn't practising anymore and that in a few months or a year I would need something...which implies that Maharaji is the source, that without the realm of knowledge and the master I can't experience the peace inside of me, feel very alive and appreciate everything. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 12:50:38 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Harmful Message: It is not easy to admit that I was duped. It would indeed be very hard to admit that you were duped if you in fact weren't duped! Seriously, I don't believe the alcoholic story one bit. It's just a remnant of the propaganda dished up by Bal Bhagwan and Mata Ji in the early days, only it's not apparent when taken out of context like this. Can't a person have a glass of champagne at his wedding party without being accused of being alcoholic? Would you believe any people who testified that he WASN'T an alcoholic? Anyway, if you feel better now that you are 'free', I am with you all the way. I just don't understand why you have to rely on rumours and twisted analogies to be that way. If you want to be free, be free! You don't need any rationale or excuse for it. That's how I see it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 12:55:03 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Harmful Message: I read what Mili posted and it reminded me of what my husband said when I described what I feel. He rationalized that it must all the hours (given that I practised as MJ recommends, more than 1 hour everyday) of practise...he added that it sounded like I realized knowledge. He also said that the effect of knowledge would wear off because I wasn't practising anymore and that in a few months or a year I would need something...which implies that Maharaji is the source, that without the realm of knowledge and the master I can't experience the peace inside of me, feel very alive and appreciate everything. What about Maharaji saying that 'it's YOUR gold mine - dig in!', or 'It's not something I take out of my pocket and give to you, but it is within inside of you - make the effort of finding it and experiencing it', etc.(my paraphrasing). What about 'If I meditate, it doesn't help you one bit - YOU have to meditate for yourself. It's like having food - if I eat, it does you no good, you have to have YOUR dinner.', etc. ? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 13:26:03 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Harmful Message: Mii, why hang out here? Why not just go over to Harlans' page or set up your own guestbook? You're bothered by this discussion but you're not really in it. You threaten and curse -- that last insult to Deena was beautiful -- you're obviously not happy here. You know how you keep telling people to 'move on' if they're not enjoying themselves? How about taking your own advice, big guy? This is a page for ex-premies and, yes, for current premies who want to'hash things out.' That means discuss points, not criticize people for doing jsut that. Your involvement here is rather hypocritical. Get lost. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 16:10:33 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Harmful Message: Gee, I didn't realize I bothered you that much. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 16:31:20 (EDT)
Poster: Mili to Deena Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Harmful Message: I have had Knowledge for some twenty years now. Been practising on and off, there were some years when I was following Mji's instructions by the book, but mostly I was doing it my way. Practising whenever I felt like it. Sometimes I was not practising for years at all. But I didn't stop breathing, I didn't stop living. So, I didn't stop practising altogether! Life's lessons never cease. I have no doubt that receiving Knowledge was the decisive factor in getting myself together enough to finish university. After that I did a year of army service. Since then, I've worked in my profession, eventually culminating with a four year stint with UNICEF. I've met many honest and dedicated people there. It was similar to DLM in many ways. They were trying to help suffering children all over the world. I still don't see that the roots of the problems are being eradicated, but still I felt I was doing something remotely worthwhile. I think I've led a pretty normal life so far, no complaints, and I increasingly felt Knowledge was an asset, an improvement of the quality of living. Now I am asking you, what the hell is so detrimental about it, and how do you expect me to believe that I was a member of a 'dangerous cult' all this time? What's so bad about it? If it hasn't harmed me for the past twenty years, why should I think it would bring me any harm in the future? You say, Knowledge is fine, it brought you inner peace, but why keep in touch with the Master? He reminds and inspires one to practice the Knowledge, that's why! If you feel benefit from the Knowledge wouldn't you want to co-operate with him as he spreads it so that more people can benefit from it? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 16:43:56 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Harmful Message: Thanks for sharing that Deena. I think I know a little of what it feels like to just see the cult in a different way. It was hard at first for me. It was so easy to just automatically fall back into that old way of thinking as a programmed premie, were that whole cult part of my life was just off limits when it came to seing what was really going on. It's refreshing, but also confronting, to see what is really there, because I also saw how the programming kept me trapped in a world where I couldn't use my better judgment. Actually, Maharaj Ji's ex-lawyer (I'm not goint to use her name now, unless she gives me permission) also told me that MJ cheated on Marilyn in addition to having a drinking problem. She left GMJ in about 1987. But I know what you mean about it being irrelevent to what is happening to you personally. It was for me too. I know that if I had proof of those things when I was a premie, I would have avoided the issue and rationalized it, or done whatever was necessary to avoid doubting him. BUT, when you start to get back in touch with your own identity and thought processes again, you realize how programmed you actually were and how much you don't want to be again, and what GMJ might do or not do is kind of irrelevent. You want to be free from him for your own personal integrity. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 17:06:58 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Mili to Deena Subject: Re: Harmful Message: I have had Knowledge for some twenty years now. Been practising on and off, there were some years when I was following Mji's instructions by the book, but mostly I was doing it my way. Practising whenever I felt like it. Sometimes I was not practising for years at all. But I didn't stop breathing, I didn't stop living. So, I didn't stop practising altogether! Life's lessons never cease. I have no doubt that receiving Knowledge was the decisive factor in getting myself together enough to finish university. After that I did a year of army service. Since then, I've worked in my profession, eventually culminating with a four year stint with UNICEF. I've met many honest and dedicated people there. It was similar to DLM in many ways. They were trying to help suffering children all over the world. I still don't see that the roots of the problems are being eradicated, but still I felt I was doing something remotely worthwhile. I think I've led a pretty normal life so far, no complaints, and I increasingly felt Knowledge was an asset, an improvement of the quality of living. Now I am asking you, what the hell is so detrimental about it, and how do you expect me to believe that I was a member of a 'dangerous cult' all this time? What's so bad about it? If it hasn't harmed me for the past twenty years, why should I think it would bring me any harm in the future? You say, Knowledge is fine, it brought you inner peace, but why keep in touch with the Master? He reminds and inspires one to practice the Knowledge, that's why! If you feel benefit from the Knowledge wouldn't you want to co-operate with him as he spreads it so that more people can benefit from it? Mili, did it ever occur to you that maybe you just never invested as much of yourself in GMJ and his world than people like Jim and Deena and I did? Really, if I had just ignored what GMJ said all those years, and just did what I felt like doing, practiced knowledge when I felt like it, and just went on my merry way, which you say you did, I doubt I would feel as ripped off as I do. Maybe I wouldn't feel ripped off at all, because it didn't cost me much. I can't believe I'm saying this, but maybe you had better sense than the rest of us and you kept your distance from the cult-like aspects of GMJ's world, or maybe you were just lucky that you didn't get as caught up in all that. Some of us did, however, and it ended up being a lot more costly for us than it might have been for you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 18:40:59 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Harmful Message: Yes, but without lackeys like us JW, MJ would not have been there for the floating in and out premies who didn't do the service that made it possibile to continue having the events everyone loved to attend. If no one took care of all his needs,: physical, financial and organizational, just how would he have been there for any premies? But I do agree that premies who don't get too involved stay clear of the cult trappings but unfortunately not the cult thinking. Or else the} would explore objiectively the possibility that their master may be an drunk or abused his power and not be threatened by it personally. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 20:32:07 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Harmful Message: Here's a radical proposition -- 'outing' ex-premies. I'm not sure what I think about people with significant stories to tell (about our cult which whitewashed the facts so completely) or who had significant positions in our hierarchy. I think that maybe I think they're getting off a little easy. Let's bring it down to my measly level. Say I was a loudmouth ashramie for the Lord. Say I was instrumental in seducing a number of people into the cult. Say one of those guys approaches me now and asks for a little help sorting it all out. Say I said I wasn't interested. Naw, that doesn't sit well. I can't help but imagine that we implicitly urged people to trust US when we echoed Maharaji's siren call. I think it was JW who said he was often more 'inspired' (suckered?) by common premies than M anyways. I know I often was. We all OFTEN were. So, like I say, I can only imagine that, if asked back then, we ALL would have unhesitantly guaranteed that we'd be there to answer any hard questions as they arose for the people we were influencing so fundamentally. How convenient for them (us?) years later to avoid standing up and being counted. What difference would it make? It would make a difference. Particularly if they had something big to report. Just their denunciation of M would have some value. We all have different perspectives and can only help each other sort things out. So, just wondering, what do YOU think M's ex-lawyer's moral obligation is? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 21:06:25 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Harmful Message: I know what you mean about moral obligations, and believe me, I am trying to contact her (the ex-premie-ex-lawyer) to participate here, because I think she would. Problem is she has a very common last name and the People Search feature in Yahoo comes up with lots of listings. But I will continue, as I think she should have the opportunity to tell her own story. She is someone I care about, so I don't want her thrown into something before she's ready. Regarding outing of ex-premies, or of anyone really, I'm against it unless the person is being a true hypocrite. Like if I found out that Newt Gingrich or Pat Buchanan were gay (yech!) I would say they should be outed because they are such raving homophobes. But otherwise, I think people have their own reasons for being private about their lives and I don't know everyone's personal situations. Also, prior to this site, there wasn't much of a place to publically say what you know about all this. I think when more people find out about it, we will hear a lot of stuff we didn't know. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 21:12:35 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Harmful Message: That is how you spell 'publically' after all, isn't it? Yeah, JW, I was just ruminating. I'm confused on the issue. What about real DLM bigshots? Do you think it's cool for them to close the book, along with their secrets, while grunts like me have to beg for info? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 23:03:24 (EDT)
Poster: Bill cooper Email: To: everyone Subject: Re: Harmful Message: I read all the new posts this morning and I was particularly struck by Deenas postings. There is that point in our lives when we go from premies who *rationalize* all of M's stuff to the first tentative realization that there is a possibility that its not all 100% true. Once you've crossed that rubicon it seems that theres no way back because all the evidence fits in a way that makes much more sense. It truly is a realisation but not the way that M promised. The bitter truth is that I'm sure in all of our heart of hearts we want it to be true that M is greater than God Santa Claus is for real , there are faires at the bottom of the garden, death is not the end and the hollywood ending is reality. Occams razor cuts away Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 23:38:59 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bill cooper Subject: Re: Harmful Message: Ya mon, Irie! Jah rastafari! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 05:48:00 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Harmful Message: What about real DLM bigshots? Do you think it's cool for them to close the book, along with their secrets, while grunts like me have to beg for info? I'd like to hear something from Bill Patterson. He saw what Mishler saw, but continued rationalizing long after Bob left. I'd like to hear from him regarding just what mental process finally allowed him to leave MJ. He was the one who initially 'found' MJ in India and told Bob about it when he returned to Denver. I respect Mishler's having gone public with what he knew, and only hope that Bill can work past his own duping. Hopefully the New Yorker article will mention this site and there'll be a jump in the number of ex's posting their experiences. [Get your 'Lies!' macro ready, Mili...] Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 01:05:30 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Everyone Subject: What Finally Gets You To Leave The Guru? Message: Talking about Guru Maharaj Ji's commandment to never leave room for doubt in your mind got me thinking about why I finally was able to leave the Maharaj Ji cult. My effort to obey that commandment, and the fact that I had perfected the ability NOT to doubt anything about GMJ or the fullness or emptiness or my own experience, meant that I was very much out of touch with myself, and how I thought or felt about much anything. Two things finally broke that cycle. First, I saw how other premies in the ashram were being abused by some of the people Guru Maharaj Ji had put in charge of them and that made me doubt that GMJ was really protecting his premies as I believed he was. It seems I could see their suffering, at least to some extent, even while I was at the same time unable to see my own. I think this came from values I learned as a young child from my dad, who had a very strong sense of justice, fought for civil rights in the 50s, and opposed the Vietnam War as early as 1964, because he said it was wrong, long before it was unpopular. I remember some of my friends said my dad was a commie, or a pinko, because he stood up for what he believed to be just. The second thing was that I ended up in a community after being at national headquarters for a long time, got a job in the world and made friends with people who were not premies. One person in particular had the incredible patience to just listen to me while I ranted all the cult programming and while I proselytized her, and then started gradually asking me questions about how I really felt and just hung out with me, and I could feel that she really cared about me. I even took her to a couple of programs when GMJ came to town. It was interesting to look at him through her eyes too. I started to look at him more objectively than I ever had. She never questioned or confronted me about being in the cult, and I would probably have distanced myself form her if she had, and I just gradually started to get more in touch with myself again and feeling the confidence to trust my own thoughts again. It took a couple of more years to get out, and even then it was really hard because it meant questioning my whole life, but I think that really began the process for me. [By the way, I got in trouble with David Smith for having this non-premie as a friend that I actually did non-cult things with, which was not allowed.] Another ex-premie I know was one of GMJ's lawyers for a number of years. She told me she left because she also began to look at GMJ objectively. She knew and saw that GMJ had a bad drinking problem. She had grown up in a family with an alcoholic parent and hence was aware of the symptoms of alcoholism. And she began to see some of the same characteristics in GMJ's drinking problem that she saw in her parent's problem. That was enough to get her look at him as something other than her lord and master, namely a human being with a problem. After that, she was eventually able to leave, despite the fact that he personally tried to get her to stay. Anyway, I just have a theory, that for many ex-premies, there is some event or series of events that finally breaks the programming and allows one to finally step back just enough to be able to trust one's own feelings and judgments once again and that begins the deprogramming process. It was very difficult for me, but it was a very exciting time in my life. I felt so free for the first time in many years. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 02:38:10 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: JW Subject: Re: What Finally Gets You To Leave The Guru? Message: If anyone wants to Finally Leave the Guru, I am giving away freebies as of today. Contact me personally and you will get a free kick in the butt. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 08:42:21 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: JW Subject: Re: What Finally Gets You To Leave The Guru? Message: JW- I wish I had read what you wrote when I first left. Then maybe I wouldn't have been so impatient with my husband lately. Thanks for sharing that with us. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 11:50:21 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: What Finally Gets You To Leave The Guru? Message: If anyone wants to Finally Leave the Guru, I am giving away freebies as of today. Contact me personally and you will get a free kick in the butt. Another spiritual aphorism? OP, you're absolutely right. I DO tend to write Mili off a little early. Thanks, sis. It's so beautiful the way we can all come together as individual BEINGS in the holy name and really see the spirit of love and not eh mind, surrender, do what you like, no matter, newspeak, newspeak, newthink, nothink. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 17:22:56 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: AM I THE ONLY ONE? Message: Sorry for the block letters but I really wanted to somehow underline this post. Am I the only one who thinks that the 'laying on of hands' stuff from the book Who is Guru Maharaj Ji? provides the coup de grace in this ongoing argument? Please, if you ahven't already, read the 'cult' thread below, particularly where OP starts explaining the reason for Maharaji's secrecy in 'giving' Knolwdge. My point is simply this -- the book relies on all sorts of scriptural back-up for the cardinal proposition in the first phase of the Maharaji religion that one receives Knolwedge through the direct, physical contact from an authorized agent of the Lord. Maharaji never quibbled with that chapter. How could he? It was his teaching. Now, he's dropped that 'ageless, timeless, universal truth' and still insists on secrecy. Why? So Maharaji can EXPLAIN the techniques properly? You know, I followed O.J.'s criminal trial about as passionately as I'm into this Maharaji thing. I know, they're so different in a million ways but what can I tell you? I did. At the end of the day I thought the prosecution could have won the case with one bit of evidence. I even called them and passed along my advice (along with countless others of course). Too bad they didn't take it. And what was so insurmountable for O.J.? Of all the evidence what was the one thing that REALLY screwed him (besdie all the blood)? It was the cell phone call. O.J. retrieved his cell from his Bronco in front of the limo driver. He also made a call from it at 10:13 p.m. or some time like that. AFTER he claimed he had gone to MacDonald's in the limo. AFTER he claimed he'd gone back into the house to nap and get ready to leave. See? Now, as Mahatma Rajeshwar used to say, SIMILIARLY, Maharaji's 'authentic authorized' bio -- more than that, his official take-it-to-the-world document, the one with his bold promise plastered accross the back 'I DECLARE I WILL ESTABLISH PEACE IN THE WORLD! -- says you can only get Knowledge through the laying on of hands. So.... if THAT wasn't true, just how much of his 'golden' message was literally worth the paper it was printed on? I don't know. Those poor black jurors got hoodwinked. They refused to look at the evidence. How about you premies? Got any Got any guts, OP? Mili? Chris? Chris, you in particular, are such a joke. Everytime you get squarely confronted with a hard question you go so far as to say 'that's a complicated issue' and then retreat to your inanities. Mili, you're no better. OP, you blow hot and cold. But now, I wonder, do you have any mental integrity at all? If not, I'd like to know. Then, fair is fair, we wouldn't have to waste our time talking with one another. The only reason people try to reason with one another is because they believe that they're reasoning with someone open to reason. If you're not, OP, please let me know and I won't waste any mroe time in this regard. Thanks. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 17:35:09 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: AM I THE ONLY ONE? Message: Are you the only one what, Jim? P.S. Is the Bill that says he's not bill the Bill that's offering to send recent BigM videos? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 19:26:46 (EDT)
Poster: JIm Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: AM I THE ONLY ONE? Message: Not really sure about our Bills. As for my question ... what do you mean 'wht do you mean?'? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 20:14:22 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: AM I THE ONLY ONE? Message: Here's a little more from 'Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji?' (page 77): SECRET INITIATION Sociologists explain secret initiation as a tool of mystic cults. Through secrecy, they say, an aura of mystery and power inspires curiosity, awe, and even fear in non-initiates which mkaes them easily controllable. Though observers are not allowed at a Knolwedge session and initiates vow never to repeat what is revealed to them, experience of the initiation shows the above explanations of secrecy to be irrelevant. Even if an observer were to film and tape-record a session, he would still not have any record of the experience being imparted. For the essence of a Knowledge sesion does not involve what is said, or even the demonstration of the four techniques of meditation. Rather, the initiation is a profound spiritual event in which an idefinable essence, or energy, is transferred between human beings. The initiate knows this not only because a brilliant light ahs been revealed to him within his own body, but also because many irrevocable changes begin to take place in his life. He discovers new confidence and motivation, the crumbling of fears and limitations, a completely true sense of who he is, increased sensitivity to others, heightened sense perceptions, renewed physical vitality, more frequent experience of 'luck' and 'coincidence', and finally, more and more, that feeling of 'the peace that passeth all understanding.' Far from using secret initiation to promote exclusiveness, it is a cosntant plea of Guru Maharj Ji and his folowers that people should come test his Knowledge, free-of-charge. We must recognize that secrecy of initiation prevents adulteration of the teaching. Sociologists think that secrecy helps to maintain a politically useful dogma, but publication of the techniques in a Knowledge session would only lead true seekers into confusion. They might delay receiving Knowledge, thinking that merely by knowing the techniques or commandments they will have recieved the essence. But the essence of the experience -- the grace of Satguru -- cannot be written, explained or caputred on film. Loss of this teaching of Perfect Masters has always left an empty, brittle religious structure, committed to words and rituals, subject to outside manipulations, and rendered inflexible through social and historical change. Only when the real energy and grace of Knowledge is personally transmitted do devotees feel the pure spiritual experience which guides them to truth.' Now, what was that about Maharaji giving Knowledge by video again? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 21:52:09 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: AM I THE ONLY ONE? Message: Do you define mental integrity as total agreement with you? If so, I have no mental integrity. Don't blow off Chris and Mili so easily, either. I know that Mili's Moments of Passion are nothing to rave about - but then neither are yours. But they both have things to say, and often say them in very clear terms. You implied below that you were going to post a quote from WIGM here - I've been looking forward to it. Instead I find OJ. Thanks a lot. ASIDE, JUST FOR FUN: I could tell you that I had my own fantasy about OJ. I kept hoping the killing had been a total drug assassination. That OJ had arrived at an inoportune moment, seen the whole thing, perhaps even tried to defend Nicole, or cradled her in his arms after her defeat and thus become bloodied. And he knew that if he ever breathed a word of who the Horrible Demon Drug Lords are who did it, he'd be deader than Nicole in a flash. So he has to defend his innocence from a point of utter impossibility. I know that's a fantasy. It would have made a good story. On the other hand, I told you a few things about how I view Maharaji - you were not impressed. You've told me a few things about how you view him - I'm not impressed. That puts us rather at an impasse, doesn't it? When I go house hunting, I take sheets of paper and make plus and minus columns. I make one page for each place we see, and write down some of the most minute details. Then, when I'm far from the immediate influence of the places we saw, I evaluate all the pluses and all the minuses. I don't just add them all up and say: this place has six pluses and only 3 minuses so it's the one. Those three minuses might be meaningful enough to turn the table the other way. On the other hand, something that seems to have only one or two good points may be THE one, because those positives loom large enough to make that place worthwhile. Should we do the same with Maharaji? That seems to be the road you want to take ... but you don't do it. You don't bother seeing the good and the bad, but concentrate only on a few negative points. I'm almost afraid to mention this to you, because I can see the list looming on the horizon, with jests and hyperbole on the positive side and bloodshed and daggers on the negative. But there you are. I've done it. And you can have fun for a few more posts making up your list. Or do you already have one? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 22:00:18 (EDT)
Poster: odl is my face red Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: AM I THE ONLY ONE? Message: ooops. Sorry. I was about to comment re the last two posts you and Douche seem to have had a few too many snifters before starting to post this evening. And NOW if find the quote you talke about below. Sorry. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 22:01:54 (EDT)
Poster: odl is my face red Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: AM I THE ONLY ONE? Message: ooops. Sorry. I was about to comment re the last two posts you and Douche seem to have had a few too many before starting to post this evening. And NOW I find the quote you talked about below. I'm apologizing first, and will read after. Sorry. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 22:29:09 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: op Subject: Re: AM I THE ONLY ONE? Message: Odl, what the fuck are you talking about? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 23:01:29 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: op Subject: Re: AM I THE ONLY ONE? Message: It's simply unfair to compare me to Mili. Yes, we can both be harsh. That's superficial. I don't avoid points and issues. He does. As for trying to add up M's pros and cons, you're missing the whole problem. Sit down a moment. I want to explain something to you. With normal people, in normal situations, we do kind of what you're talking about. We sus up our experiences with someone and decide, all things considered, if we like or trust them. We can't do that with Maharaji. He's like the Wizard of Oz. He's made some incredibly extravagant claims and caused a whole lot of people to do a lot accordingly. It's complete bullshit to try to judge him like a regular guy -- (did he smile at you last time you saw him? Was he polite at the bank? Gee, I like his suit). The question is IS HE FOR REAL? Like, who cared if the Wizard of Oz was a nice guy or even if some of his advice was true? The real question was the first one: where'd he get his authority from? So, in trying to ask that of Maharaji, we have to look carefully at what he's said and what he's done. He presented a supposedly unchangeable holy doctrine one way. Fine. Where'd he get the authority to do that? Then he changed it. Fine. Where'd he get the authority to do that? Throughout he pretended that he is beyond accountabilty for anything. Okay, same question -- where'd he get the authority to do that? Remember all those Q & A's back in them good ol days, Old Premie? Back then M at least pretended that he was accountable on some level. Read WIGM? Read the questions. Read where he says that he has the power to save the world, not in years, not even in months but 'very, very, very, very,very soon.' Back then he acted as if we could talk with him. Well I've got a few questions for him now. AS DO YOU. Where is he? He's hiding. Now, where'd he get the authority to do THAT? By the way, please read my post above where I quote WIGM? a little more extensively than you do on the issue of how Knolwedge is imparted. OP, this thing stinks and you know it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 23:51:05 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: op Subject: Re: AM I THE ONLY ONE? Message: Don't you think that's an awfully LOW threshold, OP, the balance sheet approach? Something like: I choose you or stay with you as my spiritual guide and master because your positive points outweigh your negative ones? And I would assume one of the negative points is how much the house cost, right? A house you think is cheap, I might think is VERY EXPENSIVE. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 02:23:55 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: AM I THE ONLY ONE? Message: Look, idiot, the Knowledge is true - it works. Maharaji is true, he is not giving people a raw deal. You have a blind spot in your brain, or something? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 07:40:46 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: AM I THE ONLY ONE? Message: Sorry for the block letters but I really wanted to somehow underline this post. Am I the only one who thinks that the 'laying on of hands' stuff from the book Who is Guru Maharaj Ji? provides the coup de grace in this ongoing argument? Please, if you ahven't already, read the 'cult' thread below, particularly where OP starts explaining the reason for Maharaji's secrecy in 'giving' Knolwdge. My point is simply this -- the book relies on all sorts of scriptural back-up for the cardinal proposition in the first phase of the Maharaji religion that one receives Knolwedge through the direct, physical contact from an authorized agent of the Lord. Maharaji never quibbled with that chapter. How could he? It was his teaching. Now, he's dropped that 'ageless, timeless, universal truth' and still insists on secrecy. Why? So Maharaji can EXPLAIN the techniques properly? You know, I followed O.J.'s criminal trial about as passionately as I'm into this Maharaji thing. I know, they're so different in a million ways but what can I tell you? I did. At the end of the day I thought the prosecution could have won the case with one bit of evidence. I even called them and passed along my advice (along with countless others of course). Too bad they didn't take it. And what was so insurmountable for O.J.? Of all the evidence what was the one thing that REALLY screwed him (besdie all the blood)? It was the cell phone call. O.J. retrieved his cell from his Bronco in front of the limo driver. He also made a call from it at 10:13 p.m. or some time like that. AFTER he claimed he had gone to MacDonald's in the limo. AFTER he claimed he'd gone back into the house to nap and get ready to leave. See? Now, as Mahatma Rajeshwar used to say, SIMILIARLY, Maharaji's 'authentic authorized' bio -- more than that, his official take-it-to-the-world document, the one with his bold promise plastered accross the back 'I DECLARE I WILL ESTABLISH PEACE IN THE WORLD! -- says you can only get Knowledge through the laying on of hands. So.... if THAT wasn't true, just how much of his 'golden' message was literally worth the paper it was printed on? I don't know. Those poor black jurors got hoodwinked. They refused to look at the evidence. How about you premies? Got any guts, OP? Mili? Chris? Chris, you in particular, are such a joke. Everytime you get squarely confronted with a hard question you go so far as to say 'that's a complicated issue' and then retreat to your inanities. Mili, you're no better. OP, you blow hot and cold. But now, I wonder, do you have any mental integrity at all? If not, I'd like to know. Then, fair is fair, we wouldn't have to waste our time talking with one another. The only reason people try to reason with one another is because they believe that they're reasoning with someone open to reason. If you're not, OP, please let me know and I won't waste any mroe time in this regard. Thanks. You should get reprogrammed, man. It's always the same old crap from you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 07:42:24 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: AM I THE ONLY ONE? Message: Sorry for the block letters but I really wanted to somehow underline this post. Am I the only one who thinks that the 'laying on of hands' stuff from the book Who is Guru Maharaj Ji? provides the coup de grace in this ongoing argument? Please, if you ahven't already, read the 'cult' thread below, particularly where OP starts explaining the reason for Maharaji's secrecy in 'giving' Knolwdge. My point is simply this -- the book relies on all sorts of scriptural back-up for the cardinal proposition in the first phase of the Maharaji religion that one receives Knolwedge through the direct, physical contact from an authorized agent of the Lord. Maharaji never quibbled with that chapter. How could he? It was his teaching. Now, he's dropped that 'ageless, timeless, universal truth' and still insists on secrecy. Why? So Maharaji can EXPLAIN the techniques properly? You know, I followed O.J.'s criminal trial about as passionately as I'm into this Maharaji thing. I know, they're so different in a million ways but what can I tell you? I did. At the end of the day I thought the prosecution could have won the case with one bit of evidence. I even called them and passed along my advice (along with countless others of course). Too bad they didn't take it. And what was so insurmountable for O.J.? Of all the evidence what was the one thing that REALLY screwed him (besdie all the blood)? It was the cell phone call. O.J. retrieved his cell from his Bronco in front of the limo driver. He also made a call from it at 10:13 p.m. or some time like that. AFTER he claimed he had gone to MacDonald's in the limo. AFTER he claimed he'd gone back into the house to nap and get ready to leave. See? Now, as Mahatma Rajeshwar used to say, SIMILIARLY, Maharaji's 'authentic authorized' bio -- more than that, his official take-it-to-the-world document, the one with his bold promise plastered accross the back 'I DECLARE I WILL ESTABLISH PEACE IN THE WORLD! -- says you can only get Knowledge through the laying on of hands. So.... if THAT wasn't true, just how much of his 'golden' message was literally worth the paper it was printed on? I don't know. Those poor black jurors got hoodwinked. They refused to look at the evidence. How about you premies? Got any guts, OP? Mili? Chris? Chris, you in particular, are such a joke. Everytime you get squarely confronted with a hard question you go so far as to say 'that's a complicated issue' and then retreat to your inanities. Mili, you're no better. OP, you blow hot and cold. But now, I wonder, do you have any mental integrity at all? If not, I'd like to know. Then, fair is fair, we wouldn't have to waste our time talking with one another. The only reason people try to reason with one another is because they believe that they're reasoning with someone open to reason. If you're not, OP, please let me know and I won't waste any mroe time in this regard. Thanks. Whenever Jim says 'mental integrity', read 'mental rigidity'. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 17:13:20 (EDT)
Poster: bill Email: To: david Subject: im not bill cooper Message: hi david. I have to go pick up kids so i only have a min. the bill cooper info is for Jim. Im not a toe kisser but I dont know what other better option I have than to feel my breathing as i move throughout my day. forget how i found out about it, but it has a value i come back for. Ill have to read all the weeks postings later. later guy. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 17:20:33 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: bill Subject: Re: im not bill cooper Message: so whos bill cooper? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 03:14:31 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Cooper Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: im not bill cooper Message: so whos bill cooper? Hey I never realised there was this much subterfuge on the net when I startred reading this site. You can find my account on the journeys page. Its me !! my address is UWCSEA Dover rd Singapore 193654 I really would like to take more of a part in discussions but with the time difference I'm asleep when you are all chatting Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 03:48:52 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: im not bill cooper Message: Sorry Bill, I noticed your post right at the bottom later. BTW you don't have to stay awake to take part in this forum. In fact it's a distinct advantage to sleep through and then see what remains in the fresh light of day! Jim has mentioned that there's a Bill who's offering to post recent Big M videos but he can't find the email. Is it you? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 07:37:11 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: bill Subject: Re: im not bill cooper Message: hi david. I have to go pick up kids so i only have a min. the bill cooper info is for Jim. Im not a toe kisser but I dont know what other better option I have than to feel my breathing as i move throughout my day. forget how i found out about it, but it has a value i come back for. Ill have to read all the weeks postings later. later guy. Your last name wouldn't be Patterson, by any chance? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 11:45:44 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: im not bill cooper Message: so whos bill cooper? Hey I never realised there was this much subterfuge on the net when I startred reading this site. You can find my account on the journeys page. Its me !! my address is UWCSEA Dover rd Singapore 193654 I really would like to take more of a part in discussions but with the time difference I'm asleep when you are all chatting Bill, I've never had a problem believeing in you. But then that's always been my problem. I believe in everyone. Anyways, I can't wait for your video. Any idea on a release date yet? Thanks, Jim Back To Index -:- Top of Index |