Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum I Archive # 5 | |
From: May 21, 1997 |
To: May 28, 1997 |
Page: 4 Of: 5 |
Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 09:44:14 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Everyone Subject: A Devious Uncle Does His Thing Message: OK Deena, - Again, I give. Guilt. Am I really here at this forum because of some sort of pathetic guilt trip I'm pulling over on myself? Do I possibly feel really rotten on some deep hidden level because there is actually a tiny little pre-programmed premie still wedged somewhere inside of my brain shouting, Repent and be saved! Come back to the Lotus feet!'? - Last Sunday one of the speakers at our meeting described an experience he had during his childhood. This particular experience involved the speaker and one of his uncles and took place when the speaker was just a small boy. At the time, the speaker's uncle asked the speaker, then a small boy, to go up to a second floor balcony and to jump down into the uncle's arms. Up until that point, the uncle had always been this boy's favorite uncle. Once the boy jumped, the uncle stood back and watched on as the boy bruised and scraped himself pretty badly, hitting the dirt unassisted and in a state of surprise and shock. Apparently the uncle then went on to explain to the boy, "This is a lesson, never trust anyone." - The speaker at our meeting then went on to describe that while this harsh experience had the effect of tending to temporarily shake his trust for all, eventually the speaker realized that it was mostly the uncle who could not be trusted, and that there were still many others who didn't have it in their hearts to consciously pull such a stunt. - I think it is probably safe to say that all of us ex-premies have at one time or another believed that M. was there in our lives catching us every day. Finally, after much disappointment, we have all had to admit to ourselves that somehow he wasn't really there. Perhaps those of us who trusted the most were those who chose to jump from the highest heights and ended up with the greatest bruises. Maybe it was my lack of complete trust in M., (even no matter how much I tried to trust him), that ultimately saved me from too great a damage. - But, why do I keep coming back here? Perhaps I am still trying to reconcile myself with that small boy inside of myself that is still quite disappointed and maybe even a little forlorn. Could there still be a part of myself that still feels some need to trust' again? Or could it be that that is proof that I'm really more crazy than I think! I know! All of the world is crazy except me and thee, (and sometimes I wonder about thee). So Deena I ask, which is it? Small boy with a legitimate need for trust, or glutton for punishment with a strong masochistic streak? Sincerely,Scott
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Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 10:29:53 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: A Devious Uncle Does His Thing Message: Choosing among sites where I could find encouragement to trust MJ, Jesus, politicians, educators, white supremists, Gaia, The Universe, or my own self, I'd choose the latter. The uncle story analogy applies to MJ only in that he encourages people to jump, not that he says he'll catch them if they happen to fall on their own. After jumping (at his prodding) and hitting the ground repeatedly, I finally came to the conclusion that my error wasn't that I jumped 'wrong', or with less than enough devotion, but that I ever felt the need for someone to tell me what to do. Children start out trusting of others. I think the eventual measure of personal growth is probably how much they come to trust themselves. It's apparent physically in the progress made in walking for themselves. Growth beyond what elders have achieved is purely personal exploration, I think, since children wouldn't naturally learn to walk in a world where all adults crawled. People tend to look to others for answers as adults because of that pattern of growth established in childhood. I have a real problem with answers that require me to pre-adopt the questions that they pertain to. You have to sell people on sin before you can sell them on salvation. MJ makes perfect sense to people who don't think for themselves. Why would they want to? This weekend, because MJ decided to hold a program,
many people will abandon their own personal responsibilities and traipse off
to hear him say in person what he says repeatedly on the tapes that line their
walls. And you wonder if you're crazy?...
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Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 11:06:01 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: A Devious Uncle Does His Thing Message: Scott, you need professional help. Maybe you should consult with Clearwater Advisers.... sorry, I started laughing so hard when I thought that my eyes began watering! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 11:29:24 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: A Devious Uncle Does His Thing Message: The analogy about the uncle also doesn't fit for me in the sense that with Mahrarj Ji, because I accepted his "all knowing" and "all powerful" status and was unable to question him as a divine being, it was difficult, almost impossible, to learn from all the scrapes and painful falls that the uncle was not be trustworthy. With Maharaj Ji, I at least was so programmed that if I felt any lack of trust in him, even if it was objectively justified, it was due to my not being devoted and surrendered enough. When I listened to his satsang, that's what he said. He also said that you were supposed to be happy as a premie, having received the supreme gift from him, and I felt guilty for not feeling happy. So, I continued to hit the ground again and again and blamed myself for the pain. It wasn't until I saw other people hitting the ground and feeling some empathy for them that I started to listen to my doubts about Maharaj Ji. As far as guilt is concerned, I find that anger is an excellent antidote to guilt. But you can only feel anger when you don't fear some sort of retribution from an all-powerful being. But every time you feel it and the sky doesn't fall, you realize that the emperor really doesn't have any clothes and those feelings you kept repressing all those years had some validity to them. Then I felt angrier (and embarrassed at times) that someone conned me into not listening to my better judgment all those years. As a premie, I feared anger because, as it says in arti, it would "rob me of eternal life," but now I realize it is a healthy emotion and shouldn't be repressed. One of the benefits of this site is that it gives ex-premies
some confidence to overcome the embarrassment of having been so duped, because
you find out here that a lot of intelligent and otherwise "normal" people had
the same thing happen to them.
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Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 13:46:14 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: A Devious Uncle Does His Thing Message: Dear Jim, - See! It all makes sense now! My Clearwater Advisor did a tarot reading and told me you would say something like that, if I wrote that piece! Now I know for certain that my neat Clearwater Advisor can tell me, "Which way to go, when I don't know!" I'm sending in an order for their secret code ring too! Can't wait! - Actually Jim, we are both very boringly predictable, aren't we? - Scott
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Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 15:14:16 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: A Devious Uncle Does His Thing Message: Whay? What gives here Scott! I thought if you needed to explain something you would? And right now I need to know how you got this whole guilt thing. In my e-mail I was talking about the guilt instilled in us from an early age about God etc.and the different forms that takes etc. Did you not see my post in' Fantasy another revelation' ? My point there being that we are here because
we have some part of us (as PS described, because it IS so subtle) which is
still programmed or conditioned, that we need to deprogram it and that is why
we are repeatedly attracted to return here. The rest of us that is sane wants
freedom and with each personal sharing of feelings and things that have
happened to us and from reading other's posts it begins. We are that much
closer to complete freedom!
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Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 18:44:30 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: A Devious Uncle Does His Thing Message: OK Deena, - This is my understanding of what you are saying. Please tell me if I am right.... - Yes, we all did get burnt by M. - Yes, our trust was violated by M. - Yes, we were naive and foolish. But.... - No, we should never again open ourselves to the possibility of trusting like that again. - No, we will only get burnt again, how foolish! - No, all of the dreams we used to cherish as Premies of there being a profound beauty, hope, peace and unity in life, these were all the naive musings of hyperactive imaginations. The grim reality of life is the dirt, that dirt that we all smacked up against when M. played his little games with us, when we expected his embrace and only hit the dirt. I agree with all of the yes's and all of the no's. Except for the last no. If your being burnt by M. has caused you to lose your trust in the beauty and mystery of life itself, then I honestly don't see what you guys are hanging around on planet earth for. If I felt that, I'd be the first one in line to buy my ticket for ole' Hale Bop. I mean, if life is really such a pile of shit, what's the point? Honestly, Jim too, what is it that you live for if you no longer see any true purpose in life? I'm mystified (as usual). -
Scott
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Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 19:42:29 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: A Devious Uncle Does His Thing Message: No. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 19:46:17 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: A Devious Uncle Does His Thing Message: Sex, drugs, R&R, some of the stuff woody allen talks about in 'Manhattan' and this page. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 20:17:55 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: A Devious Uncle Does His Thing Message: OK Deena, - This is my understanding of what you are saying. Please tell me if I am right.... - Yes, we all did get burnt by M. - Yes, our trust was violated by M. - Yes, we were naive and foolish. But.... - No, we should never again open ourselves to the possibility of trusting like that again. - No, we will only get burnt again, how foolish! - No, all of the dreams we used to cherish as Premies of there being a profound beauty, hope, peace and unity in life, these were all the naive musings of hyperactive imaginations. The grim reality of life is the dirt, that dirt that we all smacked up against when M. played his little games with us, when we expected his embrace and only hit the dirt. I agree with all of the yes's and all of the no's. Except for the last no. If your being burnt by M. has caused you to lose your trust in the beauty and mystery of life itself, then I honestly don't see what you guys are hanging around on planet earth for. If I felt that, I'd be the first one in line to buy my ticket for ole' Hale Bop. I mean, if life is really such a pile of shit, what's the point? Honestly, Jim too, what is it that you live for if you no longer see any true purpose in life? I'm mystified (as usual). - Scott Well, I can't speak for Deena or Jim, but I have not given up on trust; I'm just a lot more realistic about it and skeptical of someone or something that is offering a simplistic solution and asking me to "trust" that it's true, and also asking for a big commitment in return. In fact, if anything, my experience with GMJ has
gotten me to trust MYSELF a LOT more and when I trust myself, I find I'm more
able to trust others. Also, I've made a conscious effort, just because what
GMJ did to me pisses me off, to NOT let that experience close me up to new
experiences. You know that they say: "the best revenge is living well."
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Date: Fri, May 23, 1997 at 08:56:20 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: A Devious Uncle Does His Thing Message: Hold on now Scott! I still don't get it? Now you are putting words in my mouth? What is inspiring you anyways? Just what did I say that lead you to write all that stuff about the Yes's and No's ??? First it's guilt then this, neither of which I feel I get into when I describe my theory about this being a deprogramming process, being on this site, that is. Is that is where you are getting all this from? I mean, if I struck a raw nerve let me know. You have yet to respond to my theory so I can only quess it is a disturbing one. And for the record, I'm not as cynical as you draw me in that list. Trusting in myself couldn't have been happening when I got involved with MJ, because if it had I wouldn't have! As for now? I trust myself more and more every day. Well, you know my chemical cocktail theory, each one of individually unique because of that chemical makeup exclusive to us. And sure we were duped by MJ but no I don't believe we were dupes! And peace? Well, for crying out loud.(speaking of which, you sound like maybe that is what you need right now?), I've talked alot about still feeling that sense of peace . And I've talked about the clarity I seem to have of each moment as it presents itself. I'm amazed to discover that I became this person that found the ultimate feeling in life was only related to MJ. Everything else was ok, but I longed for the ultimate. That is what I am talking about. If that is what happens, no matter what you get into, then there is a duality of these two realitys or there is this level to attain. I see that as harmful and not something which brings a person to his or her own humanity, but detaches them from their humaness. No it is true, I don't see a purpose in my existence, other than to exist. That is what I see in nature. But in existing I witness alot of suffering that exits in the world, man and nature, and I can't help thinking that it is natural to want to relieve that in whatever way feels good to each person. For some people that may be dedicating their life to volunteer work , for another it may be adopting a stray animal. Or maybe some people have children because they feel it may be in their lives that that happens. I don't know. But I do feel that being completely self serving doesn't leave me with a sense of purpose. Even Jim listed being on this site which helps people like me. But why the need for a relationship with the unknown. I mean what purpose does that serve? For 30 years spirituallity was my motivating force. Now I don't even understand the word and I don't see the point? And despite that I feel very alive and appreciate how much their is to enjoy in being alive. Outside my window birds are chirping away and I can see them bouncing around in the pine tree. Something about that is so enjoyable for me to watch, but for someone else it is of little interest. Still I don't choose to get all dreamy about it. I know that those birds are in a cut throat battle for territory right now. One of them may at any moment smash into the window as many have. This doesn't mean that I don't appreciate and love to witness nature, I know how senseless the cruelity of the drive for survival of the species is. And I know that whatever a human being believes can become their reality. It doesn't matter if it is the romantic belief that nature is perfect. Or that aliens will take them. Or that prayer will cure their cancer. Or that God does or doesn't exist. Or that the purpose of life is to reach a state where there is no more suffering and pain. Or that the only way to experience the truth is by having a master. Or that peace, love , unity in this life is the purpose. Whatever one believes that becomes their reality. The experiment I once mentioned with poisoness plant rubbed or not rubbed on people's skin and their very physical reaction to that belief in what they had rubbed on them, is an example of the power of belief. And it works for people too. The truth? For those people who killed themselves to reach a higher level no one could argue that that wasn't the truth for them.So isn't it all relative Scott? It is the harm our beliefs cause that is the problem. What is the point of living if you are a person like myself who feels their is no division between outer and inner? LIke I said, I am alive and that is great because it feels good and if I can help someone else feel good that also feels good. I thought I had a purpose in bringing MJ's message to the world. That feels like it was a waste of time now because his message doesn't make people more human it detaches them from their humanity. But I'm repeating myself again. I repeat myself alot, for myself. Mj did say several times this isn't spirituallity what he offers. He does warn premies (JW) to stay away from all that sturff. I quess Clearview is an example again how premie's aren't as devoted as they try to be. Mind you, hypocritical as he is , he'll take all the money they raise from all that spirituallity. But that is nothing new. He contradicts himself continuously. Keeps premies on their toes - at least that is what they like to say. He keeps changing things and that is so cool when you are a premie, because he can do that! Dah? Speaking of which, Brian, if you wake up and read this before you go to work, thanks. Also, about how MJ changed Music to the 2nd technique....he always said how important it was for people to not have any expectations. And I'm convinced that without the Lord of the Universe hype and premies with intense meditation experience to share their experiences then aspirants receiveing knowledge didn't get blown away so he simplified it so they wouldn't be disappointed. He made fun once, of the people's expectations that they would be blown away. He said something about how there would be a pile of legs outside the knowledge session room from being blown away. He had to deal with the fact that nothing happens for alot of people nowadays. Since he never was the source of the mind blowing we older premies experienced and he admits it is just a feeling now, (gosh, I can get that petting my cat, maybe I should market that too?) But he covers his ass by quoting Kabir and the Light and Music, etc. enough to keep old premies swooning. Isn't it the smallest possibility that it was induced, not unlike a mystical drug experience? I'm not denying the literally mind blowing states I found myself in or anyone else's for that matter, but seeing it in a different light. And besides, when intense mystical revealations happen there is this phenomena (help my sp?) called' The Dark Night of the Soul'. So pray tell , if these experiences were Truth then why such a cruel joke to play on that person? More likely the altered state that is induced causes a reaction in the brain where seratonin and endorphins etc are depleted huh? Maybe? How else to explain Rapture and then a great depression? Just a theory Scott, don't go off on a tangent... please. I really don't want to refute anyone's belief, it's just that the brain IS the most mysterious thing in the world and the chemicals it produces are in every cell. It stands to reason for me that it is possibile that since NDE's OBE's religious visions etc etc can be induced in G-Force that the human body is an awesome unknown. And THAT is worth exploring to me. Science isn't cold. It's fascinating. 'The wonders of the natural world ' that we the human being are a part of. Tons that is unexplainable. We seem to have a need to understand. We seem to want answers. Right now, I feel content to not know.
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Date: Fri, May 23, 1997 at 11:09:51 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: A Devious Uncle Does His Thing Message: Scott, I can sign on for your three yes's, no problem. Your first two no's are easy too. Your last one's a doozy. You offer: '- No, all of the dreams we used to cherish as Premies of there being a profound beauty, hope, peace and unity in life, these were all the naive musings of hyperactive imaginations. The grim reality of life is the dirt, that dirt that we all smacked up against when M. played his little games with us, when we expected his embrace and only hit the dirt.' Let's start with the first sentence. My problem is that I wouldn't give up such general ideals as 'profound beauty' or 'hope' (whatever that means), to the province of premies. In other words, I might dismiss (do you know what you do when you 'dismiss'?) premie hopes but still have my own. Same with beauty. Peace? Why not? Unity? Too vague. Your
second sentence presumes that without transcendentalist tendencies one's focus
necessarily reduces to the simplest, physical level ('dirt'). I disagree. That
kind of reductionism ignores the world we live in, just as reducing us to
atoms and molecules would. But, I bet you could seel your questionnaire to
your counsellors at Clearview. It's the perfect false choice -- 'would you
like to buy our over-priced bullshit counselling OR would you prefer a life of
loneliness, fear and suffering, WITHOUT our monthly newsletter?'
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Date: Fri, May 23, 1997 at 13:41:16 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: A Devious Uncle Does His Thing Message: It would be interesting to really get down to business here and try to see how come all these people thought he was the Lord in the first place. Was it a group thing? Was it because someone started the idea and it circulated? if I were to tell you I am the Lord, would you believe me? Why did people think he was the Lord? Was it because he did a miracle? Believe it or not, I am interested in this, too! I think the situation is very similar to the case of Jesus. He never said that he was the Lord, either. But he DID say 'I and my Father are one.' He even did miracles, but even that didn't convince people. As a matter of fact, they crucified him! I wasn't raised in a Christian religion, so I guess I never had this problem, 'Is he the Lord or not'. I always thought it meant he was 'Boss Man, Top Guru' in the Hindu sense of being Satguru. I don't 'worship' him. I think he is just as human as I am, but I can clearly see that, given his background and experience, he knows more about the Knowledge, the meditation, than I do! And, yes, I have seen him sitting in meditation, with his eyes closed. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 23, 1997 at 21:08:31 (EDT)
Poster: bill Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: A Devious Uncle Does His Thing Message: hi scott j.d. Rockefeller was the one who did that to his son. perhaps others have tried that too. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 21:49:40 (EDT)
Poster: Son of Deena Email: To: Everyone Subject: Question For Maharaji Message: Listen up Maharaji! I am going to ask you a question right now. Why don't you go back to India and crawl into your little cave? Why don't you teach all the people there just like all the other so-called Guru's or Masters who are sticking to their guns in India? Take a hint, Maharaji.........HIT THE ROAD
JACK!!!!!! AND DON'T COME BACK NO MORE, NO MORE!!!!!!
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Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 23:50:48 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Son of Deena Subject: Re: Question For Maharaji Message: Does your nose ring hurt? Quit pulling it. Learn some more instead of writing as a foolish young bigot. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 05:56:56 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Question For Maharaji Message: Does your nose ring hurt? Quit pulling it. Learn some more instead of writing as a foolish young bigot. Not that you have anything
against nose rings, of course. It is a shame that Deena's son didn't notice
the plants at the program that he attended, isn't it? Some people just don't
see the beauty in life that surrounds them.
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Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 08:19:12 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Question For Maharaji Message: Does your nose ring hurt? Quit pulling it. Learn some more instead of writing as a foolish young bigot. Not that you
have anything against nose rings, of course. It is a shame that Deena's son
didn't notice the plants at the program that he attended, isn't it? Some
people just don't see the beauty in life that surrounds them.
Funny.
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Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 16:24:11 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Question For Maharaji Message: I have nothing against people wearing nose rings. For practical reasons they should not be too large. I don't like everything about programs I attend. And I haven't had a great time at all programs I have attended. And as M has said certain things I certainly have reacted in a negative way at times. I see negative stuff and a lot of positive. CD
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Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 17:02:33 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Question For Maharaji Message: And as M has said certain things I certainly have reacted in a negative way at times. What certain things? What times? What's a negative way that
you react?
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Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 19:57:08 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Question For Maharaji Message: And as M has said certain things I certainly have reacted in a negative way at times. What certain things? What times? What's a negative way that you react? BRIAN -- LEAVE HIM ALONE! Chris, it's okay. You don't have to answer those bad questions. Imagine that! 'What certain things? What times? What negative way?' All I can say is FUCK YOU, BRIAN! Can't you see how hard this is for him? Here's your asshole, Mili. Look no further. Look, I'm into a fair tussle once in a while, a little light disagreement but there's no way in the world you're going to find me supporting this kind of abuse. Brian! I'm absolutely amazed that you would harrass Chris like this. All the more reason why I thnik there should be some sort of Ex-Premie Code, and maybe some regulations for how to conduct ourselves. After all, the public could see this one day. I just want to make sure that this kind of abuse never happens again. Brian, I don't mean to come down too hard on you but you have to understand, we all share this site. Those kinds of questions -- and there's no use denying it. I know exactly where you were going. Essentially, you were trying to ask Chris what he meant, weren't you? Well, those kinds of questions are a little below the belt. No, a lot below the belt. I personally won't have anything to do with this kind of attack and again, Chris, I really want to apologize to you on behalf of everyone who agrees with me. BRIAN!
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Date: Fri, May 23, 1997 at 05:24:32 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Question For Maharaji Message: What certain things? What times? What's a negative way that you react? > BRIAN -- LEAVE HIM ALONE! Dammit, Jim, now you've gone and spooked him. He was gonna take the bait, too. ...almost had me a Snipe... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 21:20:26 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: Bill and Mili - re-threads Message: Bill said: I haven't got anything much to say except that Jim seems to keep making what I consider to be quite reasonable questions which the premies who write here seem to go out of their way not to answer them. Come on guys wether you are a premie or consider yourself an ex premie all of this stuff was or is the centre of our life, lets not piss about, there are some straight questions that need to be answered . ' I had to reproduce his comments for my mum to read. (She never goes near the archive for some reason. Funny, huh?) Mili, wouldn't you like to have someone say something nice about you for a change? I can't tell you how great it feels. Thank you Bill. Thanks very much. Yes, of course they're obvious questions and of, course, Maharaji was the centre of our lives. You'll be hard-pressed to find any premies from the seventies who kept up a career or family let alone a couple fo hobbies. Hey, even our minds and personalities were extra baggage for where we were going. (Hale-Bopp?). But, dear Mili, you get no respect here, do you? Is it because you say stuff like this (when I asked why M called himself the Lord): 'Since you are so good with quotes, why don't you give me the exact quote when he said that? Even if he did say that, it's a free universe - people can say what they want to. There's a thing called Freedom of Speech, remember? Anyway, it's up to you if you want to beleive it or not. He said you could find out who YOU are and who HE is by meditating on the Knowledge. If you didn't get anything out of the meditation, obviously he is not the Lord to you. If I experienced God through the meditation, he can be Lord to me. Why should it bother you? I am not trying to coerce you to believe that he is Lord. Jim, we've been through all of this a hundred times before - don't you remember? It's beginning to sound like a broken record. You can be who you want to be in Alice's Restaurant... ' Yes, Mili, it is. See, your argument above is stupid. So people laugh at you. You say stupid things and people laugh at you. Now what's so hard to understand about that? Oh, you don't know why this 'argument' is stupid? Really, Mili? Let me explain it to you, like I would to a small child. See, little Mili, democratic countries promote and protect certain limited 'freedoms' just like the one you've mentioned above. Here in Canada people can believe whqt they want, move where they want, vote as they want and say what they want. But all within limits. This isn't Singapore. :) No one is saying maharaji shouldn't have been allowed to prance around as the Lord and saviour of mankind. He's got the freedom to do that. But are you suggesting that others shouldn't be allowed to criticize and ridicule him? What about their freedoms, Mili? Don't they -- or we -- have any? The point is so obvious, I really can't believe that, almost a year later, we're still having to discuss it. But then you're kind of slow and I have to 'respect' that, as they say. Mili, people confront and sue each other for fraud all the time. Do you know what fraud is? Let me explain that too. Fraud is when you lie to someone and get them to do something for you. So we think M defrauded us. We think he was a bad man. That's why we want to talk to him and ask him a few questions. Do you understand that? Finally, Mili, if you don't want to convince me that he is the Lord, what are you doing? Mr. Big shot freedom of expression, why don't you just chill out a bit? I enjoy going after M and if you're not trying to argue one way or the other, it's really got nothing to do with you, does it? Mili, all you have to do is NEVER come back to this page again and, as I see it, your problem's solved. That easy. You can go bliss out on Harlan's page and even mention, from time to time, us assholes who don't like M. But you don't have to come here do you? Or do
you have an agenda, Mili? Is it to stifle free speech?
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Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 11:08:40 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Bill and Mili - re-threads Message: How come Deena 'still feels that peace inside'? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 11:29:10 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Bill and Mili - re-threads Message: How come Deena 'still feels that peace inside'? Because it's hers. MJ didn't give it, so he can't take it back. He just doesn't collect any royalties on it anymore. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 13:43:51 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Bill and Mili - re-threads Message: So that's it - there is a peace inside, but being an ex-premie consists of not giving any money? Don't you think that money could be used in an organised way to make other people aware of that peace inside? Isn't it a little selfish to keep all that nice experience just for yourself? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 15:06:18 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Bill and Mili - re-threads Message: So that's it - there is a peace inside, but being an ex-premie consists of not giving any money? Yes. And not throwing money away on MJ's home movies or being an unpaid roadie for him. Don't you think that money could be used in an organised way to make other people aware of that peace inside? I used to think that way. Even gave a bunch when I couldn't afford it. But MJ spent it on gold-plated plumbing fixtures and other crap. That's how he organized it. Now he just gets your money. Isn't it a little selfish to keep all that nice experience just for yourself?
Isn't it a little selfish for your guru to spend his devotees' money on crap
like that for himself? See, I thought he claimed that he came to establish
'World Peace', but he must have said 'World Fleece'. Or maybe he just said the
first and meant the second.
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Date: Fri, May 23, 1997 at 11:24:16 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Bill and Mili - re-threads Message: Or do you have an agenda, Mili? Is it to stifle free speech? Jim, if I ever need a lawyer, can I hire you? Seriously, you are missing the point here. YOU are the one who is trying to stifle ME in expressing my disagreement with YOUR views here. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 23, 1997 at 13:43:36 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Bill and Mili - re-threads Message: It would be interesting to really get down to business here and try to see how come all these people thought he was the Lord in the first place. Was it a group thing? Was it because someone started the idea and it circulated? if I were to tell you I am the Lord, would you believe me? Would you believe that Jim is the Lord? Not me. Why did people think he was the Lord? Was it because he did a miracle? Believe it or not, I am interested in this, too! I think the situation is very similar to the case of Jesus. He never said that he was the Lord, either. But he DID say 'I and my Father are one.' He even did miracles, but even that didn't convince people. As a matter of fact, they crucified him! I wasn't raised in a Christian religion, so I guess I never had this problem, 'Is he the Lord or not'. I always thought it meant he was 'Boss Man, Top Guru' in the Hindu sense of being Satguru. I don't 'worship' him. I think he is just as human as I am, but I can clearly see that, given his background and experience, he knows more about the Knowledge, the meditation, than I do! And, yes, I have seen him sitting in meditation, with his eyes closed. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 23, 1997 at 15:09:09 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Bill and Mili - re-threads Message: Mili, what a welcome change to see that you actually want to discuss this. But first, I have to clarify something -- you have continually told not jsut me but all Maharaji critics to shut up. Your point was that if we didn't like him just move on. YOU were the one trying to stifle the discussion Mili. Admit it, will you? Maybe then we can move on. Well, I'll move on anyways. Maharaji DID say he was the Lord. A miilion times, a million ways. If you don't believe it I'd suggest you start with the various quotes I've put up from time to time. There's no question -- he said that he, annd he alone, was God in human form. If you don't worship Maharaji then I don't know if we're talking about the same Maharaji. Maybe that's the problem. I know the search engines can come up with all sorts of stuff (wait til the rest of India gets online!). Maybe you've got the wrong Maharaji. My little Maharaji had me line up for hours to kiss his feet. And that, dear friend, was just the icing on the cake. If he knows more about the Knowledge than I do I've yet to see it. I meditated a lot in the 70s. He only talked about it, apparently, and drank like a fish. What's the matter, Mili? Never heard of false pretences? As
for seeing him in the light, are you sure what that was all about? I remember
when all these premies wre reporting seeing Jesus, Guru Nanak, Buddha, Shri
Hans and whomever in the light. It was the thing. I could make a lot of
obvious jokes but won't bother. Isn't it clear, though, that maybe, just
maybe, that was your mind playing tricks?
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Date: Fri, May 23, 1997 at 20:17:50 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Bill and Mili - re-threads Message: Mili, you've asked these questions before and I know that they have been answered. Yes he said that. He said that sitting beneath banners reading 'Lord Of The Universe'. My frustration with you is that you refuse to let that
sink in and admit to yourself that the message has changed over time. Or to
take the next step and realize that it will change again, when it's present
format becomes less marketable. At that time you may find yourself becoming
disillusioned with him, and trying to explain to the newer premies, brought in
after that latest change, that things were ever presented differently. You may
even feel frustrated at their unwillingness to accept the answers you give
too.
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Date: Sat, May 24, 1997 at 04:35:40 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Bill and Mili - re-threads Message: Is this the same Jim speaking as before? Jim, did you hire Anon as your speech writer? O.K., anyway ... WHY did all you guys follow Mji for so long? What was/is his charisma? I can't believe you were so gullible to follow him for years just based on what he was saying! That's impossible. Maybe there was just a little bit of concrete experience of Knowledge there? Hmmm? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 24, 1997 at 04:37:11 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Bill and Mili - re-threads Message: See my reply to Jim above. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 24, 1997 at 13:58:15 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Bill and Mili - re-threads Message: Mili, first I'm amazed that you think your post above somehow answers Brian's comment. Is that really how your brain thinks? Scary. What am I talking about? Brian said: 'Mili, you've asked these questions before and I know that they have been answered. Yes he said that. He said that sitting beneath banners reading 'Lord Of The Universe'. My frustration with you is that you refuse to let that sink in and admit to yourself that the message has changed over time. Or to take the next step and realize that it will change again, when it's present format becomes less marketable. At that time you may find yourself becoming disillusioned with him, and trying to explain to the newer premies, brought in after that latest change, that things were ever presented differently. You may even feel frustrated at their unwillingness to accept the answers you give too.' Your reply was that he should just read what you've written here. Why? What's the connection. Maybe I'm dumb or something but I just don't get it. Brian actually answers your question -- did M ever say he was the Lord -- and then accuses you of ignoring the obvious changes in M over the years. THAT, he says, is what's so frustrating. And your answer? Your answer is that M must have had something good or we wouldn't have followed him so long. Mili, what's your problem? Are you that out of practise? Has it been that long since you've discussed anything? Or is this what passes for discussion in the Mili household? I'm so sick of this low-grade thought process you keep splashing on my monitor's screen. You're not sharp, Mili. At least you're not acting that way. Oh, I guess your comment is roughly in the same subject area as Brian's. But if you call that responsive, you've got to get your instruments recalibrated. Or are we flying by Grace? Is that it? Eyes closed, steer by sheer habit? Only a boor would expect to get so much more than he gives. You're acting like one. You want people to answer your questions (never mind that they've been akwed and answered countless times before), but you're oblivious to your obligation in return. You're like the guy always mooching off his friends with no clue whatsoever to how he's exploiting their generosity. Now, what was it you were asking me? Yeah, right. Give me a break. One sad thing about your crassness is that it spoils the fun. If you think for a moment I wouldn't rather answer your stupid question above (stupid because it's ground that's been covered so fully here already, yet you ask it as if you just dropped in; stupid because it's so naive. You, yourself, could offer countless examples where people have been sucked in by false religious teachers, many of whom also made their followers think they were 'experiencing' the 'concrete' proof of their power), you're wrong. I'd love to deal with your shit, once and for all. You've got some really basic misunderstandings which I've tried to address in the past. But why should I? Beside the fact that we've already done that, you come to the board again and again as someone who can take but not give. Who would want to give you anymore? Besides, what gurantee is there that you'd even give anything said to you now full weight and consideration? You just don't do it. You're a boor. If this were the 'real' world this would never be happening. Part of the problem is that Scott hasn't had any rules whatsoever for engagement. No quality control. But, that's about to change. This is a DISCUSSION area. As far as I'm concerned, your obtuseness is the worst kind of 'flaming'. You're an energy leak. So is Chris. So is OP when she's evasive. So is Bobby or anyone who pretends to talk rationally, engages one accordingly, then jams out or fucks around. Big wastes of time. Scott, if you read this, here's another example. Wouldn't it be great if Mili had to deal not only with his sense of etiquette but also some basic house rules that require some sincere attempt at responsiveness? Why? Because ultimately I think someone who continually demonstrates an inability to do so shouldn't be here. Every discussion forum in the world has some rules. They have to to survive. Freeedom of Speech is only one factor to consider. For example, you'd never let Mili barge in on one of your Quaker meetings would you? They wouldn't last that long if you didn't control things a bit. That's just common sense. Sure, Mili could attend, but if he kept asking questions and never answering anyone else's, what would you guys do? I'm sure you'd try to shower him with whatever great love the Quakers have these days but, sooner or later, you'd confront him. Then, sooner or later, depending on how he responded, you'd confront him again. Finally, sooner or later, you'd kick him out. You'd have to. Or maybe not. I remember when I was a hippie in this big, dilapidated house in Vancouver. We had raoches in the kitchen but didn't want to kill them. So we gave them the kitchen. I can't remember if we actually bought food for them but we might as well have. You can see I was already developing my 'surrender' skills. Bu the upshot? They got the kitchen. We didn't. They won. We lost. Mili, this isn't going to happen here. If I've
got anything to say about it, this forum is going to be limited to responsive
discussion in the near future. You want to call that a suppression of your
fundamental human rights, phone your ambassador. Better yet pray to Maharaji
about it. But there's no way that I'm going to sit back and see your low-grade
garbage keep gumming up this discussion. It's far too important.
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Date: Sat, May 24, 1997 at 20:11:18 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Jim and Scott Subject: Re: Bill and Mili - re-threads Message: Jim: I agree with you but I'm aware of the limitations imposed by the software that supports this forum. This package doesn't require 'loggin on' in order to post. Since no permissions are required, none can be denied. But it's hard to take things written here seriously when I have to wade through long mult-part ravings from Mili concerning what you are never going to post, etc. It also discourages giving serious responses to people who aren't going to even understand the difference between honesty and sarcasm. Why even share my honest feelings with them if they haven't the sense to understand? Pearls before swine, etc. Scott: What is needed is a package that allows everyone to read, but posting is based upon email verification of the message content. Posters include their email address with the message. (It doesn't have to be shown. Make the default 'don't show'.) The software can then cross-reference the address with its 'kill' file, allowing the software to trap for addresses that are denied write permissions -- whether temporarily, permanently, or based on size/number restrictions. If the email address is not blocked, the system sends the poster email enclosing a copy of the message, a message number, and a verification code. Upon receipt of that email, the poster 'posts' to a different page where they match up the message and verification numbers. The message is now 'verified', and you also have a direct trail back to the poster should you want to report their misuse of the site to their postmaster. Messages would only show on the index after verification is received back from the poster. Unverified messages could be deleted when the system runs its cleanup. The only drawback to this, other than the fact that the software isn't doing it now, would be the extra step involved to post anything here. You would also have the added ability to hold people accountable for posting under another person's identity, and to trap for people posting under 'aliases'. [Stand by for flaming...]
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Date: Sun, May 25, 1997 at 10:33:22 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Bill and Mili - re-threads Message: It's not about money, man. This is one thing I am really clear about. The money is just a means to spread the Knowledge. Mji is true to the service that HIS guru gave him to do. (Why am I repeating this - it's falling on deaf ears, anyways). Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 25, 1997 at 11:52:14 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Bill and Mili - re-threads Message: It's not about money, man. This is one thing I am really clear about. The money is just a means to spread the Knowledge. Mji is true to the service that HIS guru gave him to do. (Why am I repeating this - it's falling on deaf ears, anyways). His guru was his father. His father was dead when MJ was seated on dad's throne and inherited the cult. Dad didn't hand-pick him as a successor, and dad didn't 'give' him any service to spread this Knowledge. If you want to make the point that dad is pleased with his efforts, you're going to have to convince me that you and his dad have spoken recently. I know for a fact that his mom wasn't very happy with MJ. She denounced him to the world press as 'a playboy'. Check the back issues of your local paper at the library. As for your 'being really clear about' the whole MJ trip not being about money, you have a point. It's about gullibility. The money flows from that point. Where there are no sheep, there is no fleecing to do. You're repeating your
'answers' here for the same reason you're repeating your questions here and
repeating your posts verbatim here. You are confused, Mili.
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Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 17:13:20 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Everyone Subject: The mystery of HTML unravels Message: Dear OP, - Sorry I had to archive, just before I got to explain how I got the < arrows and the > arrows to show up on the forum without getting gobbled up by the old HTML editing program. - Here's how I did it: In HTML there are corresponding code characters (or combinations of characters) for every character you may want display in your final message. For example, if I want you to see a <, I will type <. Then the HTML editor will convert the < that I write into a <. Of course, to even be writing this to you here, this gets even more complicated. In order for you to see any of those special characters as you do, I am actually writing different characters, which the HTML editor converts to the ones you are seeing. - If you are using Netscape, it is possible for you to actually 'see' the true characters I am writing (or source code) by clicking on the View | Document Source buttons. - Anyhows, better get back to work I spose. Take care. - Scott
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Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 13:11:29 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Dave et all Subject: Archive #8 tricks and traps Message: Dear Dave et. all, - I just finished setting up archive #8. I also finally figured out exactly how to optimize my Netscape Browser's ability to navigate within an archive. As I am sure most of you have probably experienced with the archives, they are such big files that Netscape often doesn't navigate around within them very gracefully. Here are the tricks I learned to minimize the time it takes to navigate within an archive: 1. If you would like to save the archive to your own computer for your own set of records, you can easily do this with Netscape by clicking on: File | Save As. 2. You can then browse an archive off-line at a later time by entering Netscape and clicking on: File | Open File. 3. With Netscape, once you see the status bar at the bottom of your browser say, 'Document:Done', there are several 'strange-but-necesary' things you must do in order to make nivigation within an archive as fast as possible. They are: a.) First click on any one of the thread links in the part where all of the discussion threads are shown. (The Index of Discussion Threads.) b.) Then click on Page Down 10 times. c.) Then click on the Control-Home keys. (first holding down on the Control key, then simultaneously tapping on the Home key. 4. From this point on, when returning back to the 'Index of Discussion Threads', use the 'Back' button. - By carefully following these steps, I have found myself able to zip around in the old archives at lightning speed, once I have had the patience to get them loaded. - I would appreciate any comments from other Netscape users as to whether these steps work for them. Sincerely,Scott
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Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 10:42:33 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Everyone Subject: Continuation of Debate with Jim Message: Look this is about individual, personal EXPERIENCE. It's not a rock we are discussing here. Even with rocks, if you break up a rock trying to find out WHAT it is, is it REAL, you end up with smaller rocks. Then you break it up even more and you get crystals. Smash it even more and you get molecules. Smash them up, you get atoms, smash atoms up, you get protons, neutrons, electrons. Smash them up, you get what - quarks. So far they haven't been able to smash quarks up because it requires enormous energies, but they're working on it. But even with an ordinary rock, there is no steadfast answer to the question of WHAT IS IT? and even with a rock, we can't agree about it, because we each see it differently, with different eyes, under different lighting conditions, with different past experiences, etc. If you try to convince me that I am God and Mji is the Lord, and meditation can bring you Peace I won't believe you! I might believe it only if I see it and arrive at that conclusion for myself. There is an experimental means for it - the Knowledge. But actually, it's beyond all those concepts (yes, CONCEPTS - 'God', 'Lord', 'Peace') Whatever he is he is, and whatever I am I am, and whatever it is I don't even feel it's necessary to translate it into WORDS. Why should I explain it to you at all? I am not accountable to you, nor is Mji. The difference between me and you it seems is that I believe there actually was a historical Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, Kabir, Nanak who talked about this same thing, and to me it's a very real thing. Why does that bother you? Am I bothering you with it? Is Mji? What are you so riled about anyway? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 10:58:31 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Continuation of Debate with Jim Message: You had a go at the Knowledge. If it didn't work out for you, too bad. Forget about it! It worked out for me. Why should that bother you? Rely on your own experience, but don't generalize too much, because you will reach wrrong conclusions that way. It works for me, and it works for a lot of other people, too. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 11:21:25 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Continuation of Debate with Jim Message: Mili, you're a moron. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 14:53:24 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Continuation of Debate with Jim Message: Look, Masher, far be it from me to stand between you and Jim on this never ending slanging match, but I seem to remember, not so long back, you admitting that you rarely sat down and actually practiced a little meditation. Believe me; it shows. Douche
P.S. click here
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Date: Wed, May 21, 1997 at 20:37:15 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: Continuation of Debate with Jim Message: Really cool Douche. Neat how Krishnamurti confessed believing in and following Santa as an adult is not a good idea! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 01:02:17 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Continuation of Debate with Jim Message: Mili, you're a moron. Jim, you're a dickhead. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 05:48:33 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Continuation of Debate with Jim Message: Jim: Mili, you're a moron. Mili: Jim, you're a dickhead. It's
close, but I gotta give it to Jim - based upon his use of alliteration. 'Jim,
you're a jerk' would have won this debate easily, with a name/insult syllable
match.
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Date: Sun, May 25, 1997 at 10:35:49 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Continuation of Debate with Jim Message: Jim: Mili, you're a moron. Mili: Jim, you're a dickhead. It's close, but I gotta give it to Jim - based upon his use of alliteration. 'Jim, you're a jerk' would have won this debate easily, with a name/insult syllable match. Who asked you?
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Date: Sun, May 25, 1997 at 11:57:35 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Continuation of Debate with Jim Message: Jim: Mili, you're a moron. Mili: Jim, you're a dickhead. It's close, but I gotta give it to Jim - based upon his use of alliteration. 'Jim, you're a jerk' would have won this debate easily, with a name/insult syllable match. Who asked you? Do you actually believe that you were 'debating' with Jim, and that
everyone else in the world should respect your right to carry on a private
conversation on a publicly accessable web site? You are TRULY confused, Mili.
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Date: Sun, May 25, 1997 at 15:11:23 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Continuation of Debate with Jim Message: Jim: Mili, you're a moron. Mili: Jim, you're a dickhead. It's close,
but I gotta give it to Jim - based upon his use of alliteration. 'Jim, you're
a jerk' would have won this debate easily, with a name/insult syllable
match.You're right, Brian.'Jerk' works better.
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