Ex-Premie.Org

Forum I Archive # 6

From: May 28, 1997

To: Jun 4, 1997

Page: 3 Of: 5


op, odl to you -:- hello again -:- Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 20:08:36 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: hello again -:- Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 20:28:40 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: hello again -:- Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 21:21:49 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: hello again -:- Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 21:24:15 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: hello again -:- Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 21:40:20 (EDT)
___bobby -:- Re: hello again -:- Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 21:45:03 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: hello again -:- Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 21:45:18 (EDT)
___Anon -:- Re: hello again -:- Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 21:53:37 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: hello again -:- Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 22:04:41 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: hello again -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 12:16:51 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: hello again -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 12:41:18 (EDT)
___Bobby -:- Re: hello again -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 14:15:34 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: hello again -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 17:23:37 (EDT)
___Anonamous -:- Re: hello again -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 18:16:27 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: hello again -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 18:32:12 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: hello again -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 19:10:34 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: hello again -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 22:09:19 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: hello again -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:25:39 (EDT)
___Bobby -:- Re: hello again -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:29:55 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: hello again -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:34:18 (EDT)
___Bobby -:- Re: hello again -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:37:20 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: hello again -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 00:01:47 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: hello again -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 01:19:14 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: hello again -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 01:29:31 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: hello again -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 01:32:47 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: hello again -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 11:56:35 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: hello again -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 13:24:20 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: hello again -:- Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 19:59:48 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: hello again -:- Mon, Jun 2, 1997 at 20:48:20 (EDT)
___jim -:- Re: hello again -:- Mon, Jun 2, 1997 at 21:34:39 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: hello again -:- Wed, Jun 4, 1997 at 03:11:56 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: hello again -:- Wed, Jun 4, 1997 at 10:24:45 (EDT)

Douche -:- Alpha male? -:- Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 16:24:52 (EDT)
___Anon -:- Re: Alpha male? -:- Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 17:04:27 (EDT)
___Douche -:- Re: Alpha male? -:- Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 18:05:27 (EDT)


Date: Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 20:08:36 (EDT)
Poster: op, odl to you
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: hello again
Message:
Hi guys!

I know you're hypothesizing that I ran away - no such luck.

I tried to post this about two hours ago, but my server was having trouble getting through to the site. I'm sure a lot has happened since I last read, but I want to get this up, so I'll post first and read later this time.

Here are a few answers to stuff I see happened while I was out:

re: devious uncle;
Date: Thurs, May 22, 1997 at 10:29:53 (EDT)


Brian said:
This weekend, because MJ decided to hold a program, many people will abandon their own personal responsibilities and traipse off to hear him say in person what he says repeatedly on the tapes that line their walls. And you wonder if you're crazy?...

If your favorite musician unexpectedly came to town on a weekend, or your best friend showed up on a certain afternoon, or your sister announced that she is getting married, would you say "I've got my personal responsibilities" and stick to your pre-arranged life?

Those who go to see Maharaji do so because they feel a kinship, a closeness, with him - seeing him IS part of their personal responsibilities. The joyous ones.

***

Maybe a bit late, since Scott is off, but anyway:

Date: Fri, May 23, 1997 at 21:08:31 (EDT) to scott:
bill said:

j.d. Rockefeller was the one who did that to his son.


I was going to mention that - Scott, are you sure the speaker at your meeting was on the level? Or perhaps his uncle learned his trick from Rockefeller Sr.

Whatever it is, Rockefeller later in life credited this early childhood experience as a main reason he was able to achieve so much prominence in his life. 'School of hard knocks' and all that. It seems to me the dirtiest trick one can play on anyone - seriously devoid of humanity. Which means that the person doing that is simply NOT human.

You know that I will disagree that those are also Maharaji's actions. I don't want to get into it, because I already know the interpretation from the local panel: you will presume that I feel wiser and more in tune with M's message than you. Or that I have had some special dispensation that didn't let me get burned.

I simply don't blame the bumps and bruises in my life on Maharaji. I was never promised that I would never get sick, or depressed, or poor. I WAS promised a view of the source of life, the power of creation. And that's what I got.

***

re: fantasy
Date: Fri, May 23, 1997 at 15:19:11 (EDT)

jim said:
Now, his furtive efforts to 'spread this
knowledge' are so schizophrenic, hell, maybe he deserves the money!


If M ever does another information session it would be a good idea for you to go. Might open your eyes to what's really going on.

You're living in a fantasy that you built up over the years. Ok for you to have questions about the past, but it's 20 years later and things HAVE changed.

M is not hiding, from the press or from the rest of the world. A few lessons have been learned about what the press really wants (blood, mostly, and sex whenever possible).

There was a period of relative inactivity as far as 'spreading Knowledge' during the 1980s. Most feel that this was a time that a lot of premies were getting their personal lives together, raising families, etc.

There is concentration now on getting the message out, but the emphasis is still not on numbers, but on simply letting people know this is available.

As for the spiritual path - it's not 1-2-3-you're-zapped. Of course there is a lot of hard work - you take it as far as YOU want. And the realization has to be each person's. (Why do I feel I'm repeating myself here?) Not a teaching from outside, where you have an expected result and thus focus on it, but an opening from inside, where you are walking the path with inner guidance from your own true Self.

***

Today I see there is a new 'Anonomous' on the page. To that person: Are you ready for blood and guts battle? Because that's what you will get if you persist here.

But for those of you who read the (his/her?) post - you will see that there are others besides myself who know that a question is a question and needs to be faced and dealt with. That IS what I've always seen around Maharaji.

That someone like good old Fakir should have shown up on this continent and made sure people thought serving M meant closing up to everything else seems to have closed a lot of doors to a lot of people.

Jim will immediately say, 'What about Maharaji's ashram satsangs?' Total commitment!

A lot of people lived through those days and came out the other end feeling totally committed. And they still are. After 30 years, it seems M is also totally committed. He has a message. He wants as many people as are interested in it to hear it. He makes himself available to introduce and expand on that message.

The message is not one of human failing, hellfire and damnation. It is an affirmation of something very deep in the human spirit and thirsts to know itself.

I'll quit here for now. I'm sure there are already some hailstones somewhere aimed my way.


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Date: Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 20:28:40 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op, odl to you
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
OP, is THIS what I've been waiting for? Well, life IS full of disappointments, isn't it?

M's not hiding from the press? Tell that to Kurt who's submitted his draft to the New Yorker after M declined an interview. You say they wanted 'blood'? Show me ONE unfair article M ever got. One. Amongst the thousands, just show me one. Who knows? Maybe you're right. O.J. sure thinks the press just want blood, that's for sure.

What about the laying on of hands? Please review my questions on this point before you answer. Thanks.

By the way, how was the program? I couldn't make it.
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Date: Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 21:21:49 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
No - this isn't what you've been waiting for. If it's the thing about laying on of hands, there's something that I just can't get clearly. And that's: Why is that so freaky for you?

It seems to be another question of different sides of the fence. I never felt it was a physical sacred hand that touched me. The grace was manifest through a direct connection to my heart. I've been trying to see it from your point of view. I can't.

I never took WIGM? to be a sacred scripture, either. I took it to be an interpretation by a few people who were practicing Knowledge. Some very inspiring things. Some very trivial things. Some things I never agreed with. I don't think I ever read it cover to cover.

So I've been rereading the passage you provided for me and trying to digest it properly, maybe see it from your perspective.

I know my track record for timely answers isn't so hot - but you can't say I NEVER deliver. You'll just have to put up with my timetable if you want my version of your answer.

I have a feeling there's a better version of the answers, always. You know where that is (no, it's not at the tip of Maharaji's pen).

He did talk about the internet. In fact, went on and on about it at both events. But he didn't mention you guys.


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Date: Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 21:24:15 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
No - this isn't what you've been waiting for. If it's the thing about laying on of hands, there's something that I just can't get clearly. And that's: Why is that so freaky for you?

It seems to be another question of different sides of the fence. I never felt it was a physical sacred hand that touched me. The grace was manifest through a direct connection to my heart. I've been trying to see it from your point of view. I can't.

I never took WIGM? to be a sacred scripture, either. I took it to be an interpretation by a few people who were practicing Knowledge. Some very inspiring things. Some very trivial things. Some things I never agreed with. I don't think I ever read it cover to cover.

So I've been rereading the passage you provided for me and trying to digest it properly, maybe see it from your perspective.

I know my track record for timely answers isn't so hot - but you can't say I NEVER deliver. You'll just have to put up with my timetable if you want my version of your answer.

I have a feeling there's a better version of the answers, always. You know where that is (no, it's not at the tip of Maharaji's pen).

He did talk about the internet. In fact, went on and on about it at both events. But he didn't mention you guys.


Okay, sorry to say, you're not really up to analysis. I won't bother again. How about some simple reporting? What DID he say about the net?
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Date: Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 21:40:20 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
Pretty quick on the draw, are we?

If only Douche was up, we could all traipse over to the chat room and have a few direct volleys. But I wouldn't want to do it without him - he'd be so disappointed to have missed another round.

The internet: as the source of yet another of humankind's great hopes for salvation. If you can't get the answers in other aspects of your life, maybe the internet will bring about world peace. But basically, the info superhighway is just another traffic jam.


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Date: Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 21:45:03 (EDT)
Poster: bobby
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
Actually there are some really beautiful, informative, inspiring discussions that go on on the Internet.

In some places.

Unfortunately, this place ain't one of them.

In the forums I've participated in, this place takes the cake for mean-spiritedness.
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Date: Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 21:45:18 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
Pretty quick on the draw, are we?

If only Douche was up, we could all traipse over to the chat room and have a few direct volleys. But I wouldn't want to do it without him - he'd be so disappointed to have missed another round.

The internet: as the source of yet another of humankind's great hopes for salvation. If you can't get the answers in other aspects of your life, maybe the internet will bring about world peace. But basically, the info superhighway is just another traffic jam.


Are you saying that M has the audacity to talk 'world peace'?

I also wonder, do you think the internet could possibly be valuable to man dedicated to age old Indian superstition and American luxury? What's M going to use it for? Learning something? Talking to PEOPLE?

As for quick on the draw, OP, you have zip credit with my bank. You've spent all your holiday money. Can you see why?
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Date: Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 21:53:37 (EDT)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
The internet: as the source of yet another of humankind's great hopes for salvation. If you can't get the answers
in other aspects of your life, maybe the internet will bring about world peace. But basically, the info superhighway is just another traffic jam.

JESUS..THAT IS UTTER CRAP.Who says the Internet is one of humankind's great hopes for salvation?? Who says 'If you can't get the answers in other aspects of your life, maybe the internet will bring about world peace.' WHAT BOLLOCKS!
Ok so it's a traffic jam.So fucking what? Do I get the impression someone doesn't approve of the Internet? Dear oh dear..Right I really am off to bed now..OP has returned in true style! Is this what MJ said or are these your daft ideas ODL?
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Date: Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 22:04:41 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
Actually there are some really beautiful, informative, inspiring discussions that go on on the Internet.
In some places.
Unfortunately, this place ain't one of them.
In the forums I've participated in, this place takes the cake for mean-spiritedness.

To wit: see the last two posts.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 12:16:51 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
I don't think Bobby excluded you from the "mean-spirited" part, OP, although I've never seen you use obscene words.


And if you want to see "mean-spirited," Bobby, go on over to one of the right-wing christian pages and tell them your an athiest, humanist or even just a "non-believer," like I made the mistake of doing one time, and you will see comments that make this page look like Masterpiece Theatre. Better yet, tell them you're gay, and you'll get actual death threats, which is quite a wonderful experience.
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 12:41:18 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
Pretty quick on the draw, are we?

If only Douche was up, we could all traipse over to the chat room and have a few direct volleys. But I wouldn't want to do it without him - he'd be so disappointed to have missed another round.

The internet: as the source of yet another of humankind's great hopes for salvation. If you can't get the answers in other aspects of your life, maybe the internet will bring about world peace. But basically, the info superhighway is just another traffic jam.


Are you saying that M has the audacity to talk 'world peace'?

I also wonder, do you think the internet could possibly be valuable to man dedicated to age old Indian superstition and American luxury? What's M going to use it for? Learning something? Talking to PEOPLE?

As for quick on the draw, OP, you have zip credit with my bank. You've spent all your holiday money. Can you see why?
Speaking of the Internet, I saw Noam Chomsky and Bob McChesney speak last night and they were talking about that the effect of last year's telecommunications act was part of the biggest giveaway of public assets (the Internet included) in history. The Internet is this enormous resource built at public expense and it's now being handed over to the megacorporations which have their obvious interests, namely to create a society based on social units consisting of you and maybe your Internet connection. Do we want that? They don't want people to come together and possibly organize in a fashion that will question the coporate domination of the world. Maybe people can even organize for "world peace." The Internet could be used for all sorts of other things if it remains under public control. That's the crossroads we're at at the moment and I think it's a pretty crucial time. Maharaj Ji and his cult are infintesimally small potatoes in relation to that.


Just trying to keep all of this in some perspective.


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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 14:15:34 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
That's part of what I've been saying here all along.

You guys that are getting so bent out of shape over your perception of what Maharaji is doing/has done to you. Guess what: the major causes of suffering continue.

For you folks that think you've been somehow "saved" from cultic thinking, I hate to clue you:

The au courant mindset is by far the greatest cult going. This mindset infects us all.
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 17:23:37 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
Bobby, I can't speak for anyone else, but I for one am in no way "bent out of shape" about GMJ and his cult. It is of some interest to me because I spent a good number of years doing something that turned out to be a major waste of time, and I think it's helpful to understand more how and why that happened, but it is now only a minor interest to me, and a low priority when it comes to where I direct my attention in my life.
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 18:16:27 (EDT)
Poster: Anonamous
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
Pretty quick on the draw, are we?

If only Douche was up, we could all traipse over to the chat room and have a few direct volleys. But I wouldn't want to do it without him - he'd be so disappointed to have missed another round.

The internet: as the source of yet another of humankind's great hopes for salvation. If you can't get the answers in other aspects of your life, maybe the internet will bring about world peace. But basically, the info superhighway is just another traffic jam.


Are you saying that M has the audacity to talk 'world peace'?

I also wonder, do you think the internet could possibly be valuable to man dedicated to age old Indian superstition and American luxury? What's M going to use it for? Learning something? Talking to PEOPLE?

As for quick on the draw, OP, you have zip credit with my bank. You've spent all your holiday money. Can you see why?
Speaking of the Internet, I saw Noam Chomsky and Bob McChesney speak last night and they were talking about that the effect of last year's telecommunications act was part of the biggest giveaway of public assets (the Internet included) in history. The Internet is this enormous resource built at public expense and it's now being handed over to the megacorporations which have their obvious interests, namely to create a society based on social units consisting of you and maybe your Internet connection. Do we want that? They don't want people to come together and possibly organize in a fashion that will question the coporate domination of the world. Maybe people can even organize for 'world peace.' The Internet could be used for all sorts of other things if it remains under public control. That's the crossroads we're at at the moment and I think it's a pretty crucial time. Maharaj Ji and his cult are infintesimally small potatoes in relation to that.


Just trying to keep all of this in some perspective.


How old are you Jaydub? Are you really as naive as you sound in this posting? That's the same tone of youthful optimism we had after Woodstock: "...the world has changed and now there will be world peace". Of course we all know that didn't happen. Ask yourself the question: "Does it bring YOU any peace?" If the answer is "no" then how do expect it will bring it to the world? The opposite seems to be true in this forum. If this is a representative model, it's bringing world stupidity.

;-)
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 18:32:12 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Anonamous
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
Yeah, I guess I must be pretty naive; how do you think I ever fell for that guru-crap?
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 19:10:34 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Anonamous
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
Sorry, maybe I should have been clearer. I was being sarcastic about the "world peace" stuff by means of the Internet. But don't let what I have to say turn you off from the subject. Noam Chomsky's got some pretty interesting insights into expanding the floor of our cages.
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 22:09:19 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
That's part of what I've been saying here all along.

You guys that are getting so bent out of shape over your perception of what Maharaji is doing/has done to you. Guess what: the major causes of suffering continue.

For you folks that think you've been somehow 'saved' from cultic thinking, I hate to clue you:

The au courant mindset is by far the greatest cult going. This mindset infects us all.
This is stupid.
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:25:39 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: bobby first / and all
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
I don't think Bobby excluded you from the 'mean-spirited' part, OP, although I've never seen you use obscene words.

Is that true, Bobby? Please tell me it ain't true. I've got a kind and generous heart, don't I? And a gentle new-age spirit? Don't I?

Seriously, I don't know enough about all those other forums - right-wing christians, ex-hare krishna freaks, scientologists, etc. - to make a judgment.

Before running into you guys, my main purposes on the internet were to find resources for my kids' school papers, get the words to old Floyd songs, and search out some old poetry that I'd forgotten the authors of.

I think most of the people on this page have a decent amount of brain power, and it's too bad so much of it seems to be used in negative obsession.

I'll say this again: Maharaji is a very dedicated person who feels he has a gift for humanity. He works day and night to offer this gift to those who are interested. No one is forced to participate who doesn't want to. There are no hidden agendas.

Twenty-five years ago, when he came to the west, there were a lot of Indian trappings around him. Some took longer to fall away than others, partly because a lot of those who participated in what he taught were very romantically drawn to Indian culture and mysticism (myself included). From my perspective, Maharaji himself never wanted those trappings.

He emphasizes the positive in the human spirit. He emphasizes the inner experience of complete consciousness through getting in touch with your own life force.

Those who want to help him do it out of their own free will. If someone changes her or his mind, and wants to stop participating, there are no repercussions. There is no club to join, no 'dues' to pay. There is voluntary contribution, which is a whole world away from dues.

Will I get booted off the page for saying this?
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:29:55 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
You're really such an asshole Jim.
Really.
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:34:18 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
I don't think Bobby excluded you from the 'mean-spirited' part, OP, although I've never seen you use obscene words.

Is that true, Bobby? Please tell me it ain't true. I've got a kind and generous heart, don't I? And a gentle new-age spirit? Don't I?

Seriously, I don't know enough about all those other forums - right-wing christians, ex-hare krishna freaks, scientologists, etc. - to make a judgment.

Before running into you guys, my main purposes on the internet were to find resources for my kids' school papers, get the words to old Floyd songs, and search out some old poetry that I'd forgotten the authors of.

I think most of the people on this page have a decent amount of brain power, and it's too bad so much of it seems to be used in negative obsession.

I'll say this again: Maharaji is a very dedicated person who feels he has a gift for humanity. He works day and night to offer this gift to those who are interested. No one is forced to participate who doesn't want to. There are no hidden agendas.

Twenty-five years ago, when he came to the west, there were a lot of Indian trappings around him. Some took longer to fall away than others, partly because a lot of those who participated in what he taught were very romantically drawn to Indian culture and mysticism (myself included). From my perspective, Maharaji himself never wanted those trappings.

He emphasizes the positive in the human spirit. He emphasizes the inner experience of complete consciousness through getting in touch with your own life force.

Those who want to help him do it out of their own free will. If someone changes her or his mind, and wants to stop participating, there are no repercussions. There is no club to join, no 'dues' to pay. There is voluntary contribution, which is a whole world away from dues.

Will I get booted off the page for saying this?
Go bake some cookies, ma'am. Your gloss is ludicrous and you know it. You SHOULD get booted off for saying this? Why? Because you, OP, are a liar.
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:37:20 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
I don't find you mean-spirited OP. Actually very few here have been so, and then only on occasion. The main source of mean-spiritedness is Jim Heller. Like the proverbial rabbit he just keeps on going.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 00:01:47 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
Show me ONE unfair article M ever got. One. Amongst the thousands, just show me one

Offhand, I can think of one called 'The Perfect Masturbator' in the Village Voice, published when he was 16. There were some Time articles that went on and on about Baskin Robbins and pizza and never mentioned his message. The whole rumor of unlimited wealth got out of hand because of juicy press reports based on speculation and interviews with people who wanted the attention, so said all sorts of outlandish things. Some of these people even tried to 'help' M by talking about their communication with aliens who gave them authoritative reports on who is GMJ.

What's your answer here? 'not impressed'?

I did see a few fair tv interviews and a couple of decent newspaper articles. There was even a write-up in the NY Post on the day M received American citizenship that was completely neutral. But you know as well as I that clean living doesn't sell newspapers.

But again, he's not AVOIDING the press. He's just not interested.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 01:19:14 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
Oh, please, here we go again. Isn't that quoted from page 5 of the book Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji? So Guru Maharaj Ji had us kiss is feet and demanded that we surrender our lives to him because he was forced to do it by his followers,and he wasn't really into it? You're not really meaning to insult our intelligence, now are you?
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 01:29:31 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
Brain power being "used in negative obsession?"

This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black if I ever saw one.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 01:32:47 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
"he's not AVOIDING the press. He's just not interested."


How the hell do you know this? Did he tell you this? And if he did, how do you know he isn't putting the best spin on the fact that he avoids the press?
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 11:56:35 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
'he's not AVOIDING the press. He's just not interested.'

How the hell do you know this? Did he tell you this? And if he did, how do you know he isn't putting the best spin on the fact that he avoids the press?

This is where your lack of faith shows through, JW. Opie has consistently stated what MJ feels, thinks, and knows. She is intimately acquainted with his good intentions. Almost as much as her own. Too bad you weren't the skeptic that she was when she first got involved, or you'd have been shown proof too. They are spiritually connected. Who are you going to trust? Her, or your own lying eyes?
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 13:24:20 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
'But again, he's not AVOIDING the press. He's just not interested.'

Maybe you're right. What would 'avoiding' look like, then?
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 19:59:48 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
This is my second response to your statement that Guru Maharaj Ji is "not AVOIDING the press. He's just not interested." The first was that you likely have no knowledge as to GMJ's actualmotivation for avoiding the press, especially to say he is not "interested."


The second came to me when I heard an interview with Norman Mailer on Friday (by the way, his new book "The Gospel According to the Son" is excellent -- it's a first-person narrative by Christ that's suprisingly orthodox, but so well-written it's hard to put down.) Anyway, Mailer was saying what I found out when I interned for a Summer at a national magazine years ago. He said that most reporters have aspirations to be writers, but are really lazy and hence tend to repeat what's been said before when they write an article about someone who has been written about before. A lot of inaccuracies get repeated that way and begin to take on elements of conventional "truth." So, if Maharaj Ji didn't avoid the press like he does, if he did an interview for example, the reporter is likely to go back to the files and read the background on what has been written before about him. Thus, they will see things like "lord of the universe," "the most significant event in the history of the world," "the perfect master," "kissing feet," rolls royces," "bringing peace to the entire world," that his family rejected him as a playboy and a fraud, that at age 16 the perfect master of our time married an airline stewardess 10 years older than he was, that he has residences all over the world, that he put himself on the same level as Jesus Christ, Buddha, Krishna and Mohammed, and the reporter would tend to ask embarrassing questions about that stuff that Guru Maharaj Ji would have a very hard time answering, either because he would defend that stuff, and probably be laughed out of the room, or he would say he doesn't do that stuff any more (at least the "god" stuff, he probably can't deny the residences and the Rolls Royces) and that would be embarrassing too, because his dishonesty and inconsistency with how he's packaging himself now, in comparison with where he's been and how he used to be packaged, would be obvious to everyone, except, apparently, some currently active premies.


The interviewer might even go so far as to do an Internet search and point out that there are a bunch of ex-followers of his that are none too pleased with him and perhaps ask some of the questions raised on this site, including questions some of us have asked GMJ in writing but have never received responses to. Oh well, guess he is AVOIDING those questions as well.


You see, for GMJ the press is a no-win situation. He would have a lot of explaining to do and, from his perspective, he is better off just laying low and denying all interviews when people like Kurt Anderson ask for one in connection with his New Yorker article. Again, I don't know if GMJ figured this out for himself, or, more likely, it's Michael Dettmers or others around him who, as beneficiaries of the Guru-Maharaj-Ji meal ticket, have vested interests in not seeing his gig wiped out entirely. They know they have to settle for less than before, that he's probably going to have relatively few followers in the West, but something is better than nothing and hence the press is an enemy. He's not the only one who have felt that way, Richard Nixon was in the same boat once too.


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Date: Mon, Jun 2, 1997 at 20:48:20 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op, odl to you
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
"What about the ashram satsangs? Total commitment!"


"A lot of people came through those days feeling totally committed."


So, some people were lucky to survive the "total surrender" period and come out the other side "feeling totally committed" and others weren't. Aside from the fact that you are not omniscient and don't know what these people feel, it sounds to me like you are saying Guru Maharaj Ji screwed up big time when he demanded total commitment and "surrender" (OP please do not conveniently forget "surrender") which he demanded both in and outside of his ashram satsangs, such that only "some" of his followers made it through. Either it was a BIG mistake, or he was intentionally setting up some kind of spiritual obstacle course of his own making. God, who needs that?


The spiritual path is hard enough without your own master and guide either screwing up or intentionally making it so large numbers of his followers will split and feel highly ripped off when he changes his tune entirely and dismisses both his own teachings of surrender and devotion, and with it the personal experiences and efforts of a large number of his devotees to do what he told them to do. If it was a mistake (and it certainly was in hindsight), why don't you and he just admit it? It certainly would clear the air for a lot of people including, I would imagine, people who continue to consdier themselves his devotees but still wonder about that as well.


You see, OP, the fact that he doesn't demand total commitment and surrender "anymore" is feeble solace and a tacit admission of a big booboo that had profound effects on the lives of many people. He really should take at least SOME responsibility, shouldn't he?
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Date: Mon, Jun 2, 1997 at 21:34:39 (EDT)
Poster: jim
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
'You see, OP, the fact that he doesn't demand total commitment and surrender 'anymore' is feeble solace and a tacit admission of a big booboo that had profound effects on the lives of many people. He really should take at least SOME responsibility, shouldn't he?'

JW, I'm not sure she's hear anymore. I think we might have chased her off. She might feel hard-pressed to keep posting here to diminishing returns. OP's already exhausted her initial 'benefit of the doubt' re miscues or misunderstanding facts and arguments. She returned to wish Chris a happy birthday and what does she get? Another day older and deeper in debt. No, I wouldn't be surprised if she's gone. Ditto Mili.

Not without some final flourish, you say? Ah, wishful thinking, I suggest. Let's face it, there's a certain righteous satisfaction one gets arguing with these liars that's infectious. I know. I cross-examine people for a living and sometimes, what can I say, it's sweet. When the facts are there, your question's all teed up......hmmmmmmm, good!

I feel that way with these guys. The truth is big and obvious here. Any one of us ex's could destroy the M shield in seconds in the court of common sense, providing we had a judge. (You need a judge. Too bad we don't got one. Scott, can you get us a judge?)

In the meantime, let me ask: what if this really is the last of OP? What if nary a premie logged on again? Our case against M is already made out. You and several others here have each stated it so thoroughly. What if that's it? No more interaction, no arguments, no 'movement' so to speak? What if the New Yorker DOESN'T publish Kurt's piece? What if nothing more happens?

I think we have to ask ourselves these questions. This isn't like OJ in the sense that there will be no judge, at least not unless someone sues him. And what for? Intentional Mispreresentation? Forget it.... way too hard. If only Claudia wanted some child support.... OR if only M had the guts to sue US for libel!

I just want to experience reverse prachar, that's all. I want to see the light of reason go off in someone's eyes like I saw the light of hope in all those I sucked in to this trip years ago. Boy did it feel good to first hear from Deena when she first broke free. Aren't there any more Deenas out there?
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Date: Wed, Jun 4, 1997 at 03:11:56 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: jim
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
Not gone. But if I spend this much time on the forum you guys are going to have to start supporting me. And I might get used to it and become lazy and slovenly. So it's back to work and deadlines.

I know how much you appreciate my posts, and how you respect me for having been so close to M, etc. etc. etc., so I won't try to change your minds and let you know what I'm really like.

Have fun. See ya later.
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Date: Wed, Jun 4, 1997 at 10:24:45 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: hello again
Message:
Not gone. But if I spend this much time on the forum you guys are going to have to start supporting me. And I might get used to it and become lazy and slovenly. So it's back to work and deadlines.

I know how much you appreciate my posts, and how you respect me for having been so close to M, etc. etc. etc., so I won't try to change your minds and let you know what I'm really like.

Have fun. See ya later.


OP,

Too late. We know what you're really like.
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Date: Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 16:24:52 (EDT)
Poster: Douche
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Alpha male?
Message:
Bill, they say that you can't judge a man by the size of his John Thomas, but I'd say that you had to be the alpha male around here. That's a whopper. I bet it left a dent on the table top when you whacked it down. Judge Jim soon went into hiding when you got out the tape measure.

How's the head this morning?

Douche

P.S. Scott's gonna be mad when he gets home. It takes him half a day a week to link all this crap and file it away in one of those cabinets. I finally managed to get hold of a copy of the Guru Papers today. It's not exactly a slim volume, but it does contain a chapter on Scott's 'Course of Miracles'. Can't say I understood a word of it though!
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Date: Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 17:04:27 (EDT)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Re: Alpha male?
Message:
I think the tone has reached an all time low. Maharaji would definately get a laugh out of this website now. (He privately enjoys the odd bawdy joke you know.... sorry make that filthy joke)
Apart from Scott having to spend hours cataloguing all this lonesome bar-room chatter, I think perhaps we might spare a thought (not pointing any fingers ..Rockin' Bob and Bill) for poor old Truth Seeker who is miserably trawling through endless totally irrelevant posts in search of some pearls of wisdom.
Having said all that.. I confess to having emptied several bottles of Single Malt, single-handedly, since this Forum started. I appreciate that under such circumstances it is rather easy to end up spouting enebriate pointlessness.
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Date: Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 18:05:27 (EDT)
Poster: Douche
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Alpha male?
Message:
Funny you should say that Anon, as I sit here sipping my favourite 16 year old Lagavullin and wondering why the hell I'm not in bed. But before we end up spouting yet more enebriate pointlessness, I think it's time to do just that. Let's get out of here before Bill and Rockin Bob start all over again.

Douche

P.S. Hey Bill, how about leaving us a filthy joke guaranteed to split Maharaji's sides?
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