Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum I Archive # 6 | |
From: May 28, 1997 |
To: Jun 4, 1997 |
Page: 2 Of: 5 |
Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 12:59:08 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Everyone Subject: So Who Is He, Opie? Message: I see it this way: MJ is either Lord, a Meditation Instructor, or a Fraud. You have said nothing about this. I know - you don't care to say what the great proof you were 'shown by MJ' was. I understand. Statements of Divinity are laughed at here. So let's start with the Mili-position that MJ is a Meditation Instructor. He just shows you a great way to feel inner peace. He doesn't give it to you personally or spiritually, but you're gonna have a hard time finding it in yourself without being shown. You are requested to not set up your own meditation video business in competition with his by divulging the secret techniques. So what does buying/watching videos of the instructor droning on about what you may experience have to do with meditating? Why travel to sit and watch the video before listening to MJ speak? Why travel to hear him live? What is imparted by being in the presence of the instructor, when the Knowledge can be given via tape anyway? In this explaination, some students exhibit Groupie behavior, but it isn't encouraged by the teacher. He just wants students to meditate. A wealth of video reminders is available to purchase. Students are encouraged to remember to be reminded to meditate. Then there is the Lord
of The Universe explaination of who he is. This one has fallen
into disfavor. I can understand why it's no longer parrotted by
devotees anymore, since the Lord doesn't say it himself now. It's
a secret to be discovered on your own. Receiving Knowledge, in
this case, is dependent on finding the correct incarnation of the
GodHead. He's just like anyone else, on the surface, so your
finding him is actually just by His Grace. Then, after 5 months
of video watching, you are blessed with being shown the secret
meditation techniques that allow you to directly contact him
where he really is - inside your heart. You need him to open your
third eye, but he doesn't have to be there in person. It can be
only opened from the inside anyway. Sometimes he leaves the
session early anyway if his wife is sick. (She doesn't have that
internal connection to him.) His purpose in being in this world
is to bring about World Peace by sharing Knowledge of who we
really are (Him!) with the whole world. That just
leaves the Fraud Explaination. He was a kid whose father
professed to be the Perfect Master. His father died, and someone
sat him on his father's throne and told the followers that he was
now the Perfect Master. He played along, expanding his following
to include the West. As he grew, he realized that he wasn't the
Perfect Master. He turned to alchohol for a while, then launched
himself back into the charade to continue with what was familiar
and to perpetuate a good living. He changed things. Divine Light
Mission became Elan Vital. Many of his followers left. Those who
stayed were the champion rationalizers. He has continued to
expand his organization, but now avoids the world press, the
internet, books, magazines, satelite technology, etc. The old
Mahatmas became the new Initiators. Asking a Mahatma for
Knowledge has been replaced by watching the required 5 months of
introductory videos. The old 'laying on of hands' became the
Knowledge Video. Light, Word, Nectar, Music became Technique
Numbers. He makes no claims to be anyone in particular now,
although he constantly alludes to himself as being the only way
to his devotees' inner selves. Nobody openly refers to him as
Lord now, or even Guru. They call him Maharaji. He is a Fraud.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 13:33:42 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie? Message: Brian, This one's a printer! Thanks
very much. Thank you too, Deena, Anon and JW, for your recent
stuff.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:04:55 (EDT)
Poster: burke Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie? Message: You need an update Brian, Last week in
LA he said that what you remember and think Thinking about him will affect your after death life! My question would be -does it matter if
its positve or Maybe you can clear me up on
that brian
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:09:15 (EDT)
Poster: burke Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie? Message: whats up James? dont you like my recent stuff?
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:19:47 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie? Message: One correction I noticed that you need to make with your brilliant presentation is that they went from mahatmas to initiators to what they are now referred to as- instructors. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:51:49 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: burke Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie? Message: Last week in LA he said that what you remember and think about most in your life is what you end up with after death and that its hard to remember gods infinite form ... so just remember the master. This was always one of the things that kept me glued to MJ's 'teachings' - his divine oversight onto the meaning of life. Not only life, mind you, but death too. For a guy that's yet to face it himself, he certainly claims to know a lot about it. So much for needing first-hand experience. And his devotees actually pay good money to sop this up in person... As for your question about this drivel, what
do you think MJ spends all HIS time thinking about? He's
apparently going to be able to take it all with him when he goes,
since he's certainly surrounded himself with it here. How about
some adolescent boy? Think he's gonna be up to his cosmic ears in
sex? How about a dirty old man like me? Those next-life babes
going to be lining up for me because I have a one-track mind?
Hope so... doubt it tho...
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:56:38 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie? Message: One correction I noticed that you need to make with your brilliant presentation is that they went from mahatmas to initiators to what they are now referred to as- instructors. MJ guy must use crib notes to keep up with his latest ordering of the Universe. And to think that he could have simplified his whole life by becoming an airline pilot. Ya just gotta love him, ya know? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 09:02:12 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie? Message: I went into a long and rather detailed 'explanation' of who M is to me a long time ago, and it's properly archived away. Unfortunately, I can't remember the thread it was in and haven't found it, and I'm not about to try to reconstruct it. But the gist is this: I don't see anything from what you posted that cancels out the 'meditation instructor' theory. Watching a video provided by someone who has information for you isn't outlandish, in fact it's quite logical. Why travel to hear him live? Because when someone gives you something you've enjoyed and continue to enjoy, that establishes a relationship between you - and the relationship is also something to be enjoyed. Why do people travel to hear their favorite musicians? Why do people travel to visit their favorite friends? In fact, why do people travel at all? It's already been emphasized that Knowledge is not being given by tape. The video screen (almost always live action, not taped) is a tool to help people see and understand the techniques more clearly. Techniques which, by the way, were posted incorrectly here. There is a lot more to the techniques than was was crassly described. The wealth of video reminders are enjoyable and inspiring for those who watch them. Then there's your Lord of the Universe theory. Since you have not been involved in an aspirant process, all of your prattle is pure speculation. No one has stated any of the stuff you expound here. And I really take exception to your 'Sometimes he leaves the session early anyway if his wife is sick. (She doesn't have that internal connection to him.)' His wife was very close to death. It was a very traumatic time for a lot of us and your callous statement simply shows that you have no respect for life or for other human beings. He has gone through some other personal traumas, and he weighs things very carefully before cancelling an event of any kind. One would think that his actions directed toward saving his wife's life would be at least one point on which you could feel some empathy, rather than sloughing them off wth all the rest of the shit you choose to throw at him. And that DOESN'T just leave the 'fraud explanation' - because you haven't really given anything that can be proved or disproved in your other two 'explanations' - leaving aside the possibility of several other variations. Just a few
details: Wrong. One still has to ask for Knowledge. And unless you received Knowledge in the first year or so after M came to the West, you will have had to go through some kind of aspirant process yourself. We used to have 'Knowledge seminars' - remember those? - try to
find some of the people who were there at the time. They
experienced it very differently. And Maharaji experienced it very
differently. He's talked about that period of his life, maybe you
could listen for a change. This debate doesn't have
resolution. Some people see Maharaji's face and say they've never
seen anyone who looks so kind (I'm talking here about people who
have no idea who he is or what he does). Deena sees only egotism.
When I see him, sometimes he looks youthful and shining,
sometimes he looks worn and sickly. He always looks like a close
and trusted friend. As to deeper interpretations of who he is,
they are no good unless it's a personal experience.
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 09:19:33 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie? Message: uh-OH! Something seems to be going awry with the codes. The blank space in my post has the quote from your top post, which I'll retype, since things don't seem to be copying correctly: 'someone sat him on his father's throne and told the followers that he was now the Perfect Master' To that, I said - try to find some people who were there. They experienced it very differently. And Maharaji has spoken about that period of time in his life.
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 11:50:39 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: op Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie? Message: M is different things for different people. WIGM could have been condensed down considerably to contain just this evasive bullshit. Relative Reality, eh? What color is the sky in your world, Opie? He obviously has had some importance in the lives of those who post here, or there wouldn't be so much emphasis on him. Great insight. Oh, he had 'importance', alright. JW's money is gone. He can watch it fly overhead if he's ever so blessed. Jim's friend is dead. What mindless Chris-like crap. I don't see anything from what you posted that cancels out the 'meditation instructor' theory. Watching a video provided by someone who has information for you isn't outlandish, in fact it's quite logical. We're not talking about flash updates to the way 'students' should meditate. MJ videos are cheeseburger fixes for Mickey Ji junkies. Why travel to hear him live? Because when someone gives you something you've enjoyed and continue to enjoy, that establishes a relationship between you - and the relationship is also something to be enjoyed. Why do people travel to hear their favorite musicians? Why do people travel to visit their favorite friends? In fact, why do people travel at all? What did he
give you, Opie? It needs constant refreshing, right? MJ's 'bliss'
is like air into a valveless tire. Stop blowing and it goes flat.
Premies are constantly having to shuttle back to the pump. And
the sign overhead reads 'This pump is within you'. It's already been emphasized that Knowledge is not being given by tape. The video screen (almost always live action, not taped) is a tool to help people see and understand the techniques more clearly. So, what is it? Hands on, or Hand off? I know you don't understand the significance, but those of us who do want to know. Really. Techniques which, by the way, were posted incorrectly here. There is a lot more to the techniques than was was crassly described. I know - but you promised not to tell. Tell me anyway, since I lack a VCR and just can't afford the travel expenses. You can say MJ explained it to you personally, and enjoy the oohs and aahs. The wealth of video reminders are enjoyable and inspiring for those who watch them. Chris, I'm trying to talk with Opie. Then there's your Lord of the Universe theory. Since you have not been involved in an aspirant process, all of your prattle is pure speculation. No one has stated any of the stuff you expound here. I stated it. You want I can give you Knowledge, too. Even sell you an enjoyable and inspiring video. You can be my biggest defender in cyberspace. And my 'special friend'. And I really take exception to your 'Sometimes he leaves the session early anyway if his wife is sick. (She doesn't have that internal connection to him.)' His wife was very close to death. It was a very traumatic time for a lot of us and your callous statement simply shows that you have no respect for life or for other human beings. I am not callous toward the
pain suffered by those surviving a loved one's death. The
offending statement was part of the Lord Explaination, not the
'he's whatever you think he is' response you gave. Meditation
teachers and garage mechanics have very few people in this world
that they ever love, He has gone through some other personal traumas, and he weighs things very carefully before cancelling an event of any kind. The old 'lapse into omniscience' ploy, eh? You sure know what the guy's thinking, I gotta tell you. ...all the rest of the shit you choose to throw at him. You are confused, Opie. I'm not throwing this shit at him. I'm throwing this shit at you. He's not reading this. You are. He's not inside you. You are. He's not whatever you want him to be. You are whatever he wants you to be. That's your choice. And you choose to do it here. He doesn't. And that DOESN'T just leave the 'fraud explanation' - because you haven't really given anything that can be proved or disproved in your other two 'explanations' - leaving aside the possibility of several other variations. Yeah, but 'Fraud' is the short form. Life is actually more complex than that, and so are people. I'm a cab driver. I'm a songwriter. I'm my momma's oldest son. He's the Lord. He's a Teacher. He's a Fraud. It's complex, alright. This debate doesn't have resolution. Some people see Maharaji's face and say they've never seen anyone who looks so kind (I'm talking here about people who have no idea who he is or what he does). Off into omniscience again. For the Masses this time. Okay, I'll dabble. Some people see MJ's face and write unflattering magazine articles using nasty words like 'rich', 'fraud', 'cult', 'delusion'. When I see him, sometimes he looks youthful and shining, sometimes he looks worn and sickly. He always looks like a close and trusted friend. Those are your perceptions. Those are your feelings. We all like to feel good. Con men know that. That's how it works. They sell you your own heart. Easy Payments. As to deeper interpretations of who he is, they are no good unless it's a personal experience. Back to vague evasiveness. Yeah...
it's deep alright. Quite a pile...
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 12:05:06 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: op Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie? Message: And Maharaji has spoken about that period of time in his life. I love this ploy of yours. First you hint that you know something. Someone asks you what you know. You respond 'which post do you mean?'. They tell you. You say you'll try to dig it up in the archives, but you'll have to look later. They wait. After a while, they request the information again. You both run the loop again. They accuse you of being evasive. You react with shocked amazement that they would even think this. Eventually you actually answer. I had an older sister do this to me all the time. She loved to be 'in the know' too. I know what Bob Mishler said about it. What did MJ say about it, Opie? It's your move.
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 16:32:04 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: op Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie? Message: Op says: 'This debate doesn't have resolution.' But her only reason for saying that is that she knows that, no matter what, she won't concede anything. If we were live, OP, and had some sort of judge, ref or moderator, you wouldn't get away with this. But, on the net, you could keep making a fool of yourself interminably. Ultimately, everyone must finally lose any respect for you, and give you up. I guess we're getting there fast, huh? OP, Mili and Chris. The cookie-baker, the wild and crazy 'Cookie' from 77 Sunset Strip and the wet cookie. But, let's look at OP's bottom line: 'M is different things for different people.' Think of what she's saying. 1) M has no real identity. He's a mirage. A great imposter. I think they said comments like that about the guy Tony Curtis 'posed as' in the movie by that. To paraphrase Dorothy Parker, 'there's no person on that person.' 2) If M can be no more defined than that then he's every bit as much a fraud as not. Why not toss in child abuser or murderer? OP, for one, could never deny any description of M. 3) OP has completely overlooked the entire dimension of false impressions. By her standard, Santa Claus would be 'real' until the moment you learn he isn't. Thne he isn't. What garbage. OP, it's about time for you to just leave this board alone. Your hypocrisy does indeed make me seethe. I've been urging Scott to set some higher standards and I think he will when he gets back. Life is just too short to have a discussion which ultiamtely winds down to such miserable solipsism. Better to have a dress code, even if that means no one but a few of us ex-s talk a bit. Maybe there won't be much to say. Agreement's like that after a while. But I can't see spending forever doing this with people like this. Am I the only one thinking this way?
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 16:41:02 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie? Message: Excellent, Brian. If this were a live discussion, she wouldn't do this. If she had to look you in the eye AND answer to a moderator, she couldn't do this. Maybe if she had to give a real name, she wouldn't do this. 'Why do you call me a liar?' Because, OP, you lie. Oh, I
guess 'OP's many things to many people.' To me she's a liar.
She speaks with forked tongue. Example? She claims she doesn't
like to speculate but does it all the time. Is that a lie?
Yeah, I think so. She thinks M's the Lord but won't just say it.
She KNOWS he's a fraud but won't admit it to herself. She's a
liar but she's also a confused OP. Oh, if this were live.......
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 20:00:09 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie? Message: Duh! That's why I've chosen not to get into battle with op, Mili, and Chris. Duh! Yes, he
is Mirage eee.....remember?
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 21:04:00 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: op Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie? Message: It does only leave the "fraud" theory, OP because you can't have it both ways. Turn it around. You can't have the "meditation istructor" theory, which I think you espouse (because it's the most politically correct in the Maharaj Ji world at the moment) when you come out of the protection of your utter vagueness, until the "fraud theory" is disproven. But moreover, Brian really did disprove the other two theories.
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Date: Mon, Jun 2, 1997 at 07:51:48 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie? Message: OP, it's about time for you to just leave this board alone. Your hypocrisy does indeed make me seethe. I've been urging Scott to set some higher standards and I think he will when he gets back. Life is just too short to have a discussion which ultiamtely winds down to such miserable solipsism. Better to have a dress code, even if that means no one but a few of us ex-s talk a bit. Maybe there won't be much to say. Agreement's like that after a while. But I can't see spending forever doing this with people like this. Am I the only one thinking this way? I think that way sometimes myself, especially back when Mili was posting long, meandering tomes. There is a benefit to allowing desenting premies to post, though. Not all of them originally post to defend MJ so much as to express that side of their beliefs. For those people this site serves as a sounding board to sort out the crap floating in their personal toilets. You stop thinking for a long time and you're going to have a hard time gettting it started again. Especially when you weren't thinking clearly when you first got involved with MJ. Mili at least understood the problems associated with MJ having claimed to be to be the Lord. Here in the West, we had instant access to his latest drivel at one time. Mata Ji left? We heard about it that day, or at least the next. I don't think Mili got involved with the same sort of information being available. Maybe I'm giving him more slack than he deserves, but he's been pretty quiet lately. I figure he's retreated to the circle of premies that have been so important to him in the past to do a little immersion in 'truth'. His beliefs took a beating here. This site is the only place you can confront people who have choked on the bone that's stuck in your own throat and have already managed to cough it up. That's invaluable to people trying to swallow MJ's 'truth'. Opie can't back away without
admitting to herself that she lacks faith. As an 'authority' on
MJ, and probably every other subject, to the people in her life,
she's at a point requiring her to totally drop the 'I know
something you don't know' pretense that drives her behavior with
people. That, or go on prozac to maintain the inner balancing
act. Chris is a true MJ clone. 'There's no person on that person.' But there are others reading and not posting at
this time. When they finally begin, it may not be with the 'I'm
open to the facts' attitude that you expect, Jim. They might do a
bit of flip-flopping first, as they sort through the bowl looking
for 'keepers'. Over all, I like how Scott runs this site.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 11:05:49 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Everyone Subject: Thanks Message: Thanks for sharing everyone...I haven't read every single post but most. It seems obvious that ex-premies talking to premies is like adults talking to children who still believe in Santa. I know this sounds extremely condescending but I live with a premie and he chooses to live with me even though he knows I feel that M is the leader of a cult. All the posts by premies are typical of what premie's feel, I know from first hand experience. Only three and a half months ago I would have said the same things premies say because I was one. Now I can see both sides. I find it ironic that ex-premies are accused of cult-speak. But I'm sure if an ex-Heaven's Gater were to discuss what happened to them premies would believe them because that is so obviously a cult. I know I could see cults in other places but wouldn't see it in M. Of course., to a premie this makes complete sense. The same way Marshall Applewhite made complete sense to his very blissed out followers. Their smiles said it all. They found the Truth, as far as they were concerned...they were not in a cult.....they were not deluded. They felt fulfilled and at peace with their choice. Extreme example of a cult but if anyone listened and saw these people's testamonies than their sincerity and childlike faith in what they believed was the same as a premie's.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 20:26:20 (EDT)
Poster: burke Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Thanks Message: hi Deena jklhbjl m,gu b,bn,bjkmbnkbj
kn, lopp;9;j'om//njbgrjtngyjngy8yyuyty8r6udtncvvasf Its good to see you
talk at length. I
hope you will post more often for a while.
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 01:28:30 (EDT)
Poster: burke Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Thanks Message: Jeez Deena, you nailed it. -The perfect
master who by some unexplainable magic Good eye Deena.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 10:41:59 (EDT)
Poster: burke Email: To: chris Subject: happy birthday Chris! Message: Have a great day and year. I hope in this next year you feel comfortable and real. and that the
good stuff is easy for you to to access in your day. If you change this year I hope you will still value
the Its a source of comfort and its probably god. Good luck in your evolution, bill
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 00:18:52 (EDT)
Poster: Burke Email: To: Everyone Subject: OY! For this we waited? Message: God Almighty! What is with you? For three thousand years we kept the faith that you would send us a messiah. Generation after generation we taught our kids to honor you and pray to you and you were our chosen one and we were your chosen people. After 3,000 years a guy without a career decides at age thirty that he is the one you promised us. Well thats challenging but Im game, so I go to the program
Then in his big moment in front of the palace
he says-- my Then he just about dies on the cross,
they think he's He goes on to be the biggest thing since krishna Come one, admit it, after 3,000 years you through us a real curve ball and now 2,000 years later you throw us a screw ball. God, really, what is the deal? |
Date: Wed, Jun 4, 1997 at 10:09:25 (EDT)
Poster: Paul Email: To: Burke Subject: Re: OY! For this we waited? Message: Hi again Burke Just discovered this thread. Truth is maharaji is not - and never was - a messiah - just a con. Jesus was - and is! We were taken in by maharaji - Jesus cares. Jer 29:11 "I know the plans I have for you, they are for good, and not for evil". Following Jesus is good. God bless you.
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 22:54:36 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: I wonder about this. For the past year or so I've discussed M with a bunch of premies, both on and off the net. I haven't met one who has the guts to talk about M honestly. I used to respect the basic premie 'stock' whatever that was. I remember how we all slipped into this cult with so much pride back in the early 70s. M's challenge was straightforward: try it, then you'll know. These were the people, I thought, who were honest enough to admit that they couldn't dismiss him out of hand, no matter how fantastic he seemed. Of course M cultivated that image. We were 'seekers of truth', possessed, to varying degrees of the coveted 'guileless hearts'. What in the world happened? Premie after premie comes on the net, or on this board, with anything but sincerity. Yes, OP, that means you. I'm tempted to say, ESPECIALLY you but that would be unfair. You're all cowardly and deceitful. Why do I say that? Let's look at this new asshole, Anonamous (who I'll call A for obvious reasons). Recall his first post the other day? Diligent advocate of uncompromised search for the truth? What a joke. A few straightforward questions -- honest questions -- and he unravels into just another creep. Mili, you've met your match. Some of you premies have said you were willing to discuss Maharaji rationally. Chris, I don't think ever has. He's got other problems. But, anyway, several of you guys have said you would but the only thing you've proven is that you can't be trusted. A kid could see through your evasiveness. Indeed, a few kids have already posted in glee here. What could be more fun than poking at hypocrisy on such an obvious level? So, I just wonder when M did this to all you guys. Any ideas? No, the one thing I know I'll never get from a premie is honest introspection. M demands a big price from you guys. But I guess you don't see it, do you? Why would you? If he's the standard you measure yourselves by, you're all so hopelessly lost. When I get angry at you premies I 'curse' you as follows: you will spend the rest of your lives believing in M and wasting your lives accordingly. Before you die, you'll discover that he's a fraud and will have nothing but shame for the cowardice you sheathed yourselves in for so long. Have a
nice day.
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:35:21 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: I don't think you know the meaning of rational discussion. Whenever someone tells you something you can dissect, you do so with more glee than Gunther Glockenspiel discussing snot. And when you find a road you can't cross, you curse and rant and rave and generally find something else to throw daggers at. It's already been stated several times here that there are some things that are simply matters of who's doing the looking. When I look in the mirror I see one thing, you see another. Stands to reason. Rationally speaking. I told you I wasn't freaked out by the 'laying on of hands' thing. So you say I am avoiding it. I told you my perspective on Fakiranand. You ignored that. If you spend the rest of your
life running around in circles, maybe YOU'LL end up as syrup on
Little Black Sambo's pancakes.
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:38:36 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: you don't have a clue as to what a heart is asshole. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:41:18 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: you don't have a clue as to what a heart is asshole. BOBBY! I'm surprised at you! Go wash your mouth out with soap - NOW! And to think I
always imagined you as the most peaceful of the bunch!
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:42:44 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: op Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: I don't think you know the meaning of rational discussion. Whenever someone tells you something you can dissect, you do so with more glee than Gunther Glockenspiel discussing snot. And when you find a road you can't cross, you curse and rant and rave and generally find something else to throw daggers at. It's already been stated several times here that there are some things that are simply matters of who's doing the looking. When I look in the mirror I see one thing, you see another. Stands to reason. Rationally speaking. I told you I wasn't freaked out by the 'laying on of hands' thing. So you say I am avoiding it. I told you my perspective on Fakiranand. You ignored that. If you
spend the rest of your life running around in circles, maybe
YOU'LL end up as syrup on Little Black Sambo's pancakes.
By the way, did I ask you if you were freaked out by the 'laying on of hands' trip? Really? Is that what I asked? Funny, I thought I'd asked you how you reconcile the fact that it was a central pillar of the dogma but now is no more. We KNOW
you're not freaked out. You're a premie. I'm trying to .....
no, first I want you to tell me all about 'rational discussion'.
Well?
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:47:41 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: op Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: ha ha ha Usually I'm quite
peaceful. As I've said, Jim pushes my buttons. Calling Jim an
asshole this evening was just the natural thing to say. As
Anonamous says, he struts around like Rambo on this board. When
he pushes me, I push back.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 02:30:17 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: Jim, I don't think it's so hard to understand, just think back to when you were a premie, and how you were able to live with contradiction, cognitive dissonance, irrationality and all the rest by taking little "leaps" of faith. The rational discussion can only go so far, because the subject being discussed is not rational. I think OP would admit that, wouldn't you? And I can basically accept that, and besides, there isn't really a whole lot anyone can do about it on the rational level. The questioning has to come from a deeper level, at least it did for me. A "rational" discussion would NEVER have gotten me to doubt one thing about Maharaj Ji. I had heard it all and was very good at dealing with it. It wasn't until something happened at a more central level of my being that I was able to break the devotional bond I had to him.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 02:55:14 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: JW Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: Just one more thing before I forget. And I hope others will comment on this if they can.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 03:42:13 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: Jim doesn't strike me as resembling Rambo. More like a corner ranter with a bullhorn. A know-it-all into rationalism. I wonder what his guitar playing is like. Maybe Jim isn't a total jerk. I do give him credit for getting the rumble going.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 03:59:54 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: Jim, Thanks for the kind thoughts. A curious curse. Got an altar and voodoo dolls? Ouch - g. I am working on my problems. But first today I am going to go out and have some fun on my birthday. Have a fun and exciting day,
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 20:49:50 (EDT)
Poster: burke Email: To: JW Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: I would be freindly to but shun the dark ones who got confused and left. As shri hans would say Id rather spend time with 1,000
I stood as a beacon
for those that had knowledge,wanted knowledge, were
half-aspirants, the waiting public, Im very commited when Im commited and boy I should have
been commited. Most probably just
went back to their old religion. |
Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:33:53 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: JW Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: Not got much time here tonight but wanted to say that the ex-premies that puzzle me most are the ones that have zero involvement but still feel an affection for M? Is that programming too JW...I believe it could be. As if they were the ones that just weren't good enough. The saddest part is these people I'm speaking are also substance abusers as well. I'm not worthy so it's comfortable to be an addict? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 01:21:08 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: Jim,Thanks for the kind thoughts.A curious curse. Got an altar and voodoo dolls? Ouch - g.I am working on my problems.But first today I am going to go out and have some fun on my birthday.Have a fun and exciting day,CD Ooops - I was out all day and obviously missed your birthday. So Happy Belated, Chris. And to think that on Bobby's birthday we had a cake and everything. I hope you don't feel slighted.
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 01:51:07 (EDT)
Poster: burke Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: Once again Deena you got me tonight. I know I dont have to say --Imagine-- to you Imagine the crushing blow it is -------Im
going to make this a thread.
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 15:11:31 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: burke Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: The ex-premies I was referring would not consider themselves "dark ones" or "confused," at least not as "confused" as when they were premies. They are clear that they don't want to be premies, and clear that being a premie was a waste of time, and also that it caused them other problems.
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 20:22:19 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: Not got much time here tonight but wanted to say that the ex-premies that puzzle me most are the ones that have zero involvement but still feel an affection for M? Is that programming too JW...I believe it could be. As if they were the ones that just weren't good enough. The saddest part is these people I'm speaking are also substance abusers as well. I'm not worthy so it's comfortable to be an addict? Ive known a couple of ex-premies that got into drugs after they left the cult, but then I knew premies who were heavy into drugs while they were still active premies -- and I knew of several drug dealers who were premies as well. The Miami premie community in the early 80s was overrun with drugs -- it was the height of the Miami Vice cocaine days in Miami.
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 20:43:30 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: JW Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: Physically leaving the cult does not mean you have left the cult programming. That takes a lot of work and I think there are a lot of ex-premies who don't really want to do the work. They just want to forget that the whole Guru Maharaj Ji trip ever happened. I have known a couple of people who are not 'into' Maharaj Ji and don't consider themselves premies, but still have a picture of GMJ on their wall (usually in a very out-of-the-way place like a bedroom or a closet). I'm not sure if it's just nostalgia, or something else. I think you're right about ex-premies not wanting 'to do the work' required to leave the cult programming after leaving the cult. Most of the ones that I knew came into DLM after having been raised Christians. (Don't know about non-Western cultures.) I was one of them. We could transfer our original belief structure to now support MJ instead of an invisible Jesus. That was a selling point at the time - that Knowledge would make you a better ______ [whatever faith you were]. But I don't think the framework itself is that easy to
tear down for some people. Most of it was already in place when
they stumbled into an ashram for the first time, or saw their
first aspirant video (as these young whippersnapper premies say).
Parents and family members installed most of the planks in the
first place. Keeping the clandestine picture of MJ is comparable
to the hanging of a 'just in case' crucifix on the wall by
non-church-goers who were raised with fundamental Christian
beliefs. It's easier to repaint a wall, or paper over the
defects, than to tear it out completely.
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 21:27:24 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: Yes, I remember when Guru Maharaj Ji used to say that receiving knowledge would not change your religion. (laugh) He then proceeded to denigrate religions as the empty traditions of dead perfect masters. Can you imagine the ashram premie after arti and meditation heading off to the local catholic church for mass?
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 21:38:34 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? Message: JW, to be fair, why don't you accept the fact that M isn't saying those things these days? If you live in the past, how can he change it? If you use your mind to judge him how can you judge yourself? If you aren't willing to look at yourself, maybe you never really trusted M. Or, if you trusted too much maybe that was a form of mind. Or, if mind itself is okay, maybe you should give him another chance. When was the last time you saw a video? Chris saw one. By the way, what gives you the right to judge me when I don't even judge myself? And if we don't follow M, who are we going to follow? Not you, I hope. You're too critical of everything!
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 00:02:06 (EDT)
Poster: burke Email: To: Everyone Subject: The outing of Jim Message: I swear on the holy---oops so help me yashua That Jim is a closet christian. He is not afraid of m anymore but he is afraid of some higher power. not just any
higher power, but one that wants him I think for all his alleged deprogramed state,
I know that the cult is gigantic and borg-like,
well?
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 00:19:59 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: burke Subject: Re: The outing of Jim Message: What'd I do to deserve this? Bill, have you ever thought of getting into meditation? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 11:36:08 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: burke Subject: Re: The outing of Jim Message: I swear on the holy---oops so help me yashua That Jim is a closet christian. He is not afraid of m anymore but he is afraid of some higher power. not
just any higher power, but one that wants him I think for all his alleged
deprogramed state, I know that the cult is
gigantic and borg-like, well?
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Date: Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 20:53:00 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: Wallpaper Message: Scott, can we get some coloured wallpaper? Please, huh, can we? Please? Even Harlan's got some and he's a premie. They LIKE white walls. We don't. I posted this here to trigger a straw poll. By the way, if any of you guys who know a little about page graphics and stuff, perhaps from producing your own porn pages (what is that 'home-based' business of yours anyways, Deena?), care to, I bet Scott wouldn't mind a suggestion or two, perhpas a little help. Hm?
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