Ex-Premie.Org

Forum I Archive # 6

From: May 28, 1997

To: Jun 4, 1997

Page: 2 Of: 5


Brian -:- So Who Is He, Opie? -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 12:59:08 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: So Who Is He, Opie? -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 13:33:42 (EDT)
___burke -:- Re: So Who Is He, Opie? -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:04:55 (EDT)
___burke -:- Re: So Who Is He, Opie? -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:09:15 (EDT)
___Deena -:- Re: So Who Is He, Opie? -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:19:47 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: So Who Is He, Opie? -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:51:49 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: So Who Is He, Opie? -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:56:38 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: So Who Is He, Opie? -:- Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 09:02:12 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: So Who Is He, Opie? -:- Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 09:19:33 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: So Who Is He, Opie? -:- Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 11:50:39 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: So Who Is He, Opie? -:- Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 12:05:06 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: So Who Is He, Opie? -:- Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 16:32:04 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: So Who Is He, Opie? -:- Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 16:41:02 (EDT)
___Deena -:- Re: So Who Is He, Opie? -:- Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 20:00:09 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: So Who Is He, Opie? -:- Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 21:04:00 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: So Who Is He, Opie? -:- Mon, Jun 2, 1997 at 07:51:48 (EDT)

Deena -:- Thanks -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 11:05:49 (EDT)
___burke -:- Re: Thanks -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 20:26:20 (EDT)
___burke -:- Re: Thanks -:- Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 01:28:30 (EDT)

burke -:- happy birthday Chris! -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 10:41:59 (EDT)

Burke -:- OY! For this we waited? -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 00:18:52 (EDT)
___Paul -:- Re: OY! For this we waited? -:- Wed, Jun 4, 1997 at 10:09:25 (EDT)

Jim -:- whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 22:54:36 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:35:21 (EDT)
___Bobby -:- Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:38:36 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:41:18 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:42:44 (EDT)
___Bobby -:- Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:47:41 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 02:30:17 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 02:55:14 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 03:42:13 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 03:59:54 (EDT)
___burke -:- Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 20:49:50 (EDT)
___Deena -:- Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:33:53 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 01:21:08 (EDT)
___burke -:- Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 01:51:07 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 15:11:31 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 20:22:19 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 20:43:30 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 21:27:24 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'? -:- Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 21:38:34 (EDT)

burke -:- The outing of Jim -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 00:02:06 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: The outing of Jim -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 00:19:59 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: The outing of Jim -:- Fri, May 30, 1997 at 11:36:08 (EDT)

Jim -:- Wallpaper -:- Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 20:53:00 (EDT)


Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 12:59:08 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: So Who Is He, Opie?
Message:
I see it this way: MJ is either Lord, a Meditation Instructor, or a Fraud.

You have said nothing about this. I know - you don't care to say what the great proof you were 'shown by MJ' was. I understand. Statements of Divinity are laughed at here.

So let's start with the Mili-position that MJ is a Meditation Instructor. He just shows you a great way to feel inner peace. He doesn't give it to you personally or spiritually, but you're gonna have a hard time finding it in yourself without being shown. You are requested to not set up your own meditation video business in competition with his by divulging the secret techniques. So what does buying/watching videos of the instructor droning on about what you may experience have to do with meditating? Why travel to sit and watch the video before listening to MJ speak? Why travel to hear him live? What is imparted by being in the presence of the instructor, when the Knowledge can be given via tape anyway? In this explaination, some students exhibit Groupie behavior, but it isn't encouraged by the teacher. He just wants students to meditate. A wealth of video reminders is available to purchase. Students are encouraged to remember to be reminded to meditate.

Then there is the Lord of The Universe explaination of who he is. This one has fallen into disfavor. I can understand why it's no longer parrotted by devotees anymore, since the Lord doesn't say it himself now. It's a secret to be discovered on your own. Receiving Knowledge, in this case, is dependent on finding the correct incarnation of the GodHead. He's just like anyone else, on the surface, so your finding him is actually just by His Grace. Then, after 5 months of video watching, you are blessed with being shown the secret meditation techniques that allow you to directly contact him where he really is - inside your heart. You need him to open your third eye, but he doesn't have to be there in person. It can be only opened from the inside anyway. Sometimes he leaves the session early anyway if his wife is sick. (She doesn't have that internal connection to him.) His purpose in being in this world is to bring about World Peace by sharing Knowledge of who we really are (Him!) with the whole world.
In order to reach everyone, he uses every available resource:
1) Television programs like Christian evangelists use. These are beamed via satellite to all corners of the world. He can sit in a studio and reach millions.
2) The Internet. He is making full use of the incredible computer network available to bring his message even to the lowest of computer nerds.
3) Newspaper and Magazines. The information available in print has exploded in the past years - ever since the debut of '...And It Is Divine'. Every newsstand in the world contains satsang now.
4) Word of mouth. People who have already recognized him for who he is are encouraged to tell everyone they know that the Lord Is Here!

That just leaves the Fraud Explaination. He was a kid whose father professed to be the Perfect Master. His father died, and someone sat him on his father's throne and told the followers that he was now the Perfect Master. He played along, expanding his following to include the West. As he grew, he realized that he wasn't the Perfect Master. He turned to alchohol for a while, then launched himself back into the charade to continue with what was familiar and to perpetuate a good living. He changed things. Divine Light Mission became Elan Vital. Many of his followers left. Those who stayed were the champion rationalizers. He has continued to expand his organization, but now avoids the world press, the internet, books, magazines, satelite technology, etc. The old Mahatmas became the new Initiators. Asking a Mahatma for Knowledge has been replaced by watching the required 5 months of introductory videos. The old 'laying on of hands' became the Knowledge Video. Light, Word, Nectar, Music became Technique Numbers. He makes no claims to be anyone in particular now, although he constantly alludes to himself as being the only way to his devotees' inner selves. Nobody openly refers to him as Lord now, or even Guru. They call him Maharaji. He is a Fraud.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 13:33:42 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie?
Message:
Brian,

This one's a printer! Thanks very much. Thank you too, Deena, Anon and JW, for your recent stuff.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:04:55 (EDT)
Poster: burke
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie?
Message:
You need an update Brian,

Last week in LA he said that what you remember and think
about most in your life is what you end up with after death
and that its hard to remember gods infinite form
(I disagree) so just remember the master.

That says a lot about how high the master is being
presented.

Thinking about him will affect your after death life!

My question would be -does it matter if its positve or
will our time in scotts world add brownie points to
our score card too?

Maybe you can clear me up on that brian
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:09:15 (EDT)
Poster: burke
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie?
Message:
whats up James? dont you like my recent stuff?


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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:19:47 (EDT)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie?
Message:
One correction I noticed that you need to make with your brilliant presentation is that they went from mahatmas to initiators to what they are now referred to as- instructors.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:51:49 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: burke
Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie?
Message:
Last week in LA he said that what you remember and think about most in your life is what you end up with after death and that its hard to remember gods infinite form ... so just remember the master.

This was always one of the things that kept me glued to MJ's 'teachings' - his divine oversight onto the meaning of life. Not only life, mind you, but death too. For a guy that's yet to face it himself, he certainly claims to know a lot about it. So much for needing first-hand experience. And his devotees actually pay good money to sop this up in person...

As for your question about this drivel, what do you think MJ spends all HIS time thinking about? He's apparently going to be able to take it all with him when he goes, since he's certainly surrounded himself with it here. How about some adolescent boy? Think he's gonna be up to his cosmic ears in sex? How about a dirty old man like me? Those next-life babes going to be lining up for me because I have a one-track mind? Hope so... doubt it tho...
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:56:38 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie?
Message:
One correction I noticed that you need to make with your brilliant presentation is that they went from mahatmas to initiators to what they are now referred to as- instructors.
MJ guy must use crib notes to keep up with his latest ordering of the Universe. And to think that he could have simplified his whole life by becoming an airline pilot. Ya just gotta love him, ya know?
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 09:02:12 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie?
Message:
I went into a long and rather detailed 'explanation' of who M is to me a long time ago, and it's properly archived away. Unfortunately, I can't remember the thread it was in and haven't found it, and I'm not about to try to reconstruct it.

But the gist is this:
M is different things for different people. He obviously has had some importance in the lives of those who post here, or there wouldn't be so much emphasis on him.

I don't see anything from what you posted that cancels out the 'meditation instructor' theory. Watching a video provided by someone who has information for you isn't outlandish, in fact it's quite logical.

Why travel to hear him live? Because when someone gives you something you've enjoyed and continue to enjoy, that establishes a relationship between you - and the relationship is also something to be enjoyed. Why do people travel to hear their favorite musicians? Why do people travel to visit their favorite friends? In fact, why do people travel at all?

It's already been emphasized that Knowledge is not being given by tape. The video screen (almost always live action, not taped) is a tool to help people see and understand the techniques more clearly. Techniques which, by the way, were posted incorrectly here. There is a lot more to the techniques than was was crassly described.

The wealth of video reminders are enjoyable and inspiring for those who watch them.

Then there's your Lord of the Universe theory. Since you have not been involved in an aspirant process, all of your prattle is pure speculation. No one has stated any of the stuff you expound here.

And I really take exception to your 'Sometimes he leaves the session early anyway if his wife is sick. (She doesn't have that internal connection to him.)'

His wife was very close to death. It was a very traumatic time for a lot of us and your callous statement simply shows that you have no respect for life or for other human beings. He has gone through some other personal traumas, and he weighs things very carefully before cancelling an event of any kind. One would think that his actions directed toward saving his wife's life would be at least one point on which you could feel some empathy, rather than sloughing them off wth all the rest of the shit you choose to throw at him.

And that DOESN'T just leave the 'fraud explanation' - because you haven't really given anything that can be proved or disproved in your other two 'explanations' - leaving aside the possibility of several other variations.

Just a few details:
< Asking a Mahatma for Knowledge has been replaced by watching the required 5 months of introductory videos.>

Wrong. One still has to ask for Knowledge. And unless you received Knowledge in the first year or so after M came to the West, you will have had to go through some kind of aspirant process yourself. We used to have 'Knowledge seminars' - remember those?


- try to find some of the people who were there at the time. They experienced it very differently. And Maharaji experienced it very differently. He's talked about that period of his life, maybe you could listen for a change.

This debate doesn't have resolution. Some people see Maharaji's face and say they've never seen anyone who looks so kind (I'm talking here about people who have no idea who he is or what he does). Deena sees only egotism. When I see him, sometimes he looks youthful and shining, sometimes he looks worn and sickly. He always looks like a close and trusted friend. As to deeper interpretations of who he is, they are no good unless it's a personal experience.
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 09:19:33 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie?
Message:
uh-OH! Something seems to be going awry with the codes.

The blank space in my post has the quote from your top post, which I'll retype, since things don't seem to be copying correctly:

'someone sat him on his father's throne and told the followers that he was now the Perfect Master'

To that, I said - try to find some people who were there. They experienced it very differently. And Maharaji has spoken about that period of time in his life.


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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 11:50:39 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie?
Message:
M is different things for different people.

WIGM could have been condensed down considerably to contain just this evasive bullshit. Relative Reality, eh? What color is the sky in your world, Opie?

He obviously has had some importance in the lives of those who post here, or there wouldn't be so much emphasis on him.

Great insight. Oh, he had 'importance', alright. JW's money is gone. He can watch it fly overhead if he's ever so blessed. Jim's friend is dead. What mindless Chris-like crap.

I don't see anything from what you posted that cancels out the 'meditation instructor' theory. Watching a video provided by someone who has information for you isn't outlandish, in fact it's quite logical.

We're not talking about flash updates to the way 'students' should meditate. MJ videos are cheeseburger fixes for Mickey Ji junkies.

Why travel to hear him live? Because when someone gives you something you've enjoyed and continue to enjoy, that establishes a relationship between you - and the relationship is also something to be enjoyed. Why do people travel to hear their favorite musicians? Why do people travel to visit their favorite friends? In fact, why do people travel at all?

What did he give you, Opie? It needs constant refreshing, right? MJ's 'bliss' is like air into a valveless tire. Stop blowing and it goes flat. Premies are constantly having to shuttle back to the pump. And the sign overhead reads 'This pump is within you'.
The 'travel' questions are just fluff. Ask MJ.

It's already been emphasized that Knowledge is not being given by tape. The video screen (almost always live action, not taped) is a tool to help people see and understand the techniques more clearly.

So, what is it? Hands on, or Hand off? I know you don't understand the significance, but those of us who do want to know. Really.

Techniques which, by the way, were posted incorrectly here. There is a lot more to the techniques than was was crassly described.

I know - but you promised not to tell. Tell me anyway, since I lack a VCR and just can't afford the travel expenses. You can say MJ explained it to you personally, and enjoy the oohs and aahs.

The wealth of video reminders are enjoyable and inspiring for those who watch them.

Chris, I'm trying to talk with Opie.

Then there's your Lord of the Universe theory. Since you have not been involved in an aspirant process, all of your prattle is pure speculation. No one has stated any of the stuff you expound here.

I stated it. You want I can give you Knowledge, too. Even sell you an enjoyable and inspiring video. You can be my biggest defender in cyberspace. And my 'special friend'.

And I really take exception to your 'Sometimes he leaves the session early anyway if his wife is sick. (She doesn't have that internal connection to him.)' His wife was very close to death. It was a very traumatic time for a lot of us and your callous statement simply shows that you have no respect for life or for other human beings.

I am not callous toward the pain suffered by those surviving a loved one's death. The offending statement was part of the Lord Explaination, not the 'he's whatever you think he is' response you gave. Meditation teachers and garage mechanics have very few people in this world that they ever love,
when you stack that number against the number alive at any time. Their loss is very hard to take. The Lord, on the other hand, has us ALL as children, and I for one am touched that he can take such personal interest in any single one of us. Sparrows in his eyes, etc. Did your compassionate Lord
every run to any other sick premies? Mourn for Jim's friend? Send a sympathy card to the parents of dead premies? That's the sort of thing that a teacher or mechanic might do. The Lord was busy at the time spending the deceaseds' money.

He has gone through some other personal traumas, and he weighs things very carefully before cancelling an event of any kind.

The old 'lapse into omniscience' ploy, eh? You sure know what the guy's thinking, I gotta tell you.

...all the rest of the shit you choose to throw at him.

You are confused, Opie. I'm not throwing this shit at him. I'm throwing this shit at you. He's not reading this. You are. He's not inside you. You are. He's not whatever you want him to be. You are whatever he wants you to be. That's your choice. And you choose to do it here. He doesn't.

And that DOESN'T just leave the 'fraud explanation' - because you haven't really given anything that can be proved or disproved in your other two 'explanations' - leaving aside the possibility of several other variations.

Yeah, but 'Fraud' is the short form. Life is actually more complex than that, and so are people. I'm a cab driver. I'm a songwriter. I'm my momma's oldest son. He's the Lord. He's a Teacher. He's a Fraud. It's complex, alright.

This debate doesn't have resolution. Some people see Maharaji's face and say they've never seen anyone who looks so kind (I'm talking here about people who have no idea who he is or what he does).

Off into omniscience again. For the Masses this time. Okay, I'll dabble. Some people see MJ's face and write unflattering magazine articles using nasty words like 'rich', 'fraud', 'cult', 'delusion'.

When I see him, sometimes he looks youthful and shining, sometimes he looks worn and sickly. He always looks like a close and trusted friend.

Those are your perceptions. Those are your feelings. We all like to feel good. Con men know that. That's how it works. They sell you your own heart. Easy Payments.

As to deeper interpretations of who he is, they are no good unless it's a personal experience.

Back to vague evasiveness. Yeah... it's deep alright. Quite a pile...
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 12:05:06 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie?
Message:
And Maharaji has spoken about that period of time in his life.

I love this ploy of yours. First you hint that you know something. Someone asks you what you know. You respond 'which post do you mean?'. They tell you. You say you'll try to dig it up in the archives, but you'll have to look later. They wait. After a while, they request the information again. You both run the loop again. They accuse you of being evasive. You react with shocked amazement that they would even think this. Eventually you actually answer. I had an older sister do this to me all the time. She loved to be 'in the know' too. I know what Bob Mishler said about it.

What did MJ say about it, Opie?

It's your move.
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 16:32:04 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie?
Message:
Op says: 'This debate doesn't have resolution.'

But her only reason for saying that is that she knows that, no matter what, she won't concede anything. If we were live, OP, and had some sort of judge, ref or moderator, you wouldn't get away with this. But, on the net, you could keep making a fool of yourself interminably. Ultimately, everyone must finally lose any respect for you, and give you up. I guess we're getting there fast, huh? OP, Mili and Chris. The cookie-baker, the wild and crazy 'Cookie' from 77 Sunset Strip and the wet cookie.

But, let's look at OP's bottom line: 'M is different things for different people.' Think of what she's saying.

1) M has no real identity. He's a mirage. A great imposter. I think they said comments like that about the guy Tony Curtis 'posed as' in the movie by that. To paraphrase Dorothy Parker, 'there's no person on that person.'

2) If M can be no more defined than that then he's every bit as much a fraud as not. Why not toss in child abuser or murderer? OP, for one, could never deny any description of M.

3) OP has completely overlooked the entire dimension of false impressions. By her standard, Santa Claus would be 'real' until the moment you learn he isn't. Thne he isn't. What garbage.

OP, it's about time for you to just leave this board alone. Your hypocrisy does indeed make me seethe. I've been urging Scott to set some higher standards and I think he will when he gets back. Life is just too short to have a discussion which ultiamtely winds down to such miserable solipsism. Better to have a dress code, even if that means no one but a few of us ex-s talk a bit. Maybe there won't be much to say. Agreement's like that after a while.

But I can't see spending forever doing this with people like this. Am I the only one thinking this way?


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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 16:41:02 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie?
Message:
Excellent, Brian. If this were a live discussion, she wouldn't do this. If she had to look you in the eye AND answer to a moderator, she couldn't do this. Maybe if she had to give a real name, she wouldn't do this.

'Why do you call me a liar?' Because, OP, you lie. Oh, I guess 'OP's many things to many people.' To me she's a liar. She speaks with forked tongue. Example? She claims she doesn't like to speculate but does it all the time. Is that a lie? Yeah, I think so. She thinks M's the Lord but won't just say it. She KNOWS he's a fraud but won't admit it to herself. She's a liar but she's also a confused OP. Oh, if this were live.......
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 20:00:09 (EDT)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie?
Message:
Duh!

That's why I've chosen not to get into battle with op, Mili, and Chris.

Duh!

Yes, he is Mirage eee.....remember?
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 21:04:00 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie?
Message:
It does only leave the "fraud" theory, OP because you can't have it both ways. Turn it around. You can't have the "meditation istructor" theory, which I think you espouse (because it's the most politically correct in the Maharaj Ji world at the moment) when you come out of the protection of your utter vagueness, until the "fraud theory" is disproven. But moreover, Brian really did disprove the other two theories.


You can't claim the meditation istructor theory when I, with my own ears, heard him claim for years to be ever so much more than that, and he even downplayed meditation as less important than devotion and surrender to the master. I was there I heard it. So, if he is "only" a meditation instructor, it is a recent avocation, and apparently one taken on after much market testing showed that "perfect master" sells much less well than it did in the 70s.


And you can't have the "lord of the universe" theory if he is refusing to acknowledge nowadays that that is who he is. Either you are the lord or you're not. You can't stop being the lord because it's more expedient to do so. That tactic is consistent with misrepresentation and fraud.


So that just leaves fraud. Of course, if he would ever come forward and publically admit some big mistakes, ask people for forgive him and start over, well, who knows, he might mitigate the "fraud" label at least somewhat. But since he has an ego the size of which, few people could even imagine, finely developed from having thousands of people shoowning over him, buying him multi-million dollar gifts, kissing his feet and buying videos of his simplistic platitudes (who wouldn't get a big hear over that?), I doubt that will happen.
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Date: Mon, Jun 2, 1997 at 07:51:48 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: So Who Is He, Opie?
Message:
OP, it's about time for you to just leave this board alone. Your hypocrisy does indeed make me seethe. I've been urging Scott to set some higher standards and I think he will when he gets back. Life is just too short to have a discussion which ultiamtely winds down to such miserable solipsism. Better to have a dress code, even if that means no one but a few of us ex-s talk a bit. Maybe there won't be much to say. Agreement's like that after a while. But I can't see spending forever doing this with people like this. Am I the only one thinking this way?

I think that way sometimes myself, especially back when Mili was posting long, meandering tomes.

There is a benefit to allowing desenting premies to post, though. Not all of them originally post to defend MJ so much as to express that side of their beliefs. For those people this site serves as a sounding board to sort out the crap floating in their personal toilets. You stop thinking for a long time and you're going to have a hard time gettting it started again. Especially when you weren't thinking clearly when you first got involved with MJ.

Mili at least understood the problems associated with MJ having claimed to be to be the Lord. Here in the West, we had instant access to his latest drivel at one time. Mata Ji left? We heard about it that day, or at least the next. I don't think Mili got involved with the same sort of information being available. Maybe I'm giving him more slack than he deserves, but he's been pretty quiet lately. I figure he's retreated to the circle of premies that have been so important to him in the past to do a little immersion in 'truth'. His beliefs took a beating here. This site is the only place you can confront people who have choked on the bone that's stuck in your own throat and have already managed to cough it up. That's invaluable to people trying to swallow MJ's 'truth'.

Opie can't back away without admitting to herself that she lacks faith. As an 'authority' on MJ, and probably every other subject, to the people in her life, she's at a point requiring her to totally drop the 'I know something you don't know' pretense that drives her behavior with people. That, or go on prozac to maintain the inner balancing act.
She's so easily self-duped about her imaginary friendship with MJ because she expects people around her to be self-duped about her omniscient expertise. I don't hold out much hope that she'll go away OR face the facts squarely. She'll probably just continue with her out-of-body floating act above life's issues.

Chris is a true MJ clone. 'There's no person on that person.'

But there are others reading and not posting at this time. When they finally begin, it may not be with the 'I'm open to the facts' attitude that you expect, Jim. They might do a bit of flip-flopping first, as they sort through the bowl looking for 'keepers'. Over all, I like how Scott runs this site.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 11:05:49 (EDT)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Thanks
Message:
Thanks for sharing everyone...I haven't read every single post but most.

It seems obvious that ex-premies talking to premies is like adults talking to children who still believe in Santa. I know this sounds extremely condescending but I live with a premie and he chooses to live with me even though he knows I feel that M is the leader of a cult. All the posts by premies are typical of what premie's feel, I know from first hand experience. Only three and a half months ago I would have said the same things premies say because I was one. Now I can see both sides. I find it ironic that ex-premies are accused of cult-speak. But I'm sure if an ex-Heaven's Gater were to discuss what happened to them premies would believe them because that is so obviously a cult. I know I could see cults in other places but wouldn't see it in M.


When Brian posted about allowing someone to be that reminder in your life instead of finding it within yourself, the very thing M advocates, the post is ignored by premies. I am really enjoying my life knowing that it is not in a certain time or place (be that in practise of knowledge, watching a video, doing service, or being with M) that I feel home, fulfilled, content. There is an incredable freedom in not being depending on anything external to trigger that feeling, (as the event triggered the feeling for you Anonamous). The need for a master is a cage I am very happy to be rid of.


But back to Santa...
It's impossible to get through because they want to believe so much. Tell a child before they've grown up enough to learn the truth on their own, and you break their heart. They don't want to look at the obvious It seems cruel to break the fantasy of a little child. But if a child grows up to continue to believe in Santa their involvement would take on adult proportions. They would, not doulbt, not be satisfied with a once a year admiration for the one who they should be good for. You can imagine the manifestations of this belief in an adult. It would be considered unhealthy and discouraged. But we are not talking about belief in a magical being who makes everyone's wishes come true.... We're talking about someone who is the only one who has the key. The Perfect Master who by some unexplainable magic continues to have a relationship with a dead master (his father) but insists that a person needs a living master. And this magic is within every human being to feel but can only be experienced with the help of the Perfect Master.That the purpose in a human being's life is to find that fulfillment within themselves but they are dependent on the reminder of the master. In other words, there is no experience without the master's blessings (reserved for premies only, you'll never hear him say blessings to all the people here or to all the aspirants here). Without the master's Grace in a devotees life where would the devotee be? God-like ability to have the power to give blessings, Grace and to hold the key...magic.

Of course., to a premie this makes complete sense. The same way Marshall Applewhite made complete sense to his very blissed out followers. Their smiles said it all. They found the Truth, as far as they were concerned...they were not in a cult.....they were not deluded. They felt fulfilled and at peace with their choice. Extreme example of a cult but if anyone listened and saw these people's testamonies than their sincerity and childlike faith in what they believed was the same as a premie's.


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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 20:26:20 (EDT)
Poster: burke
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Thanks
Message:
hi Deena

jklhbjl m,gu b,bn,bjkmbnkbj kn, lopp;9;j'om//njbgrjtngyjngy8yyuyty8r6udtncvvasf
That was my 5 yr old who wanted to do some letters.

Its good to see you talk at length.
a lot comes out and its on the money.

I hope you will post more often for a while.
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 01:28:30 (EDT)
Poster: burke
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Thanks
Message:
Jeez Deena, you nailed it.

-The perfect master who by some unexplainable magic
continues to have a relationship with a dead master( his father) , but insists that a person needs a living master.--

Good eye Deena.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 10:41:59 (EDT)
Poster: burke
Email:
To: chris
Subject: happy birthday Chris!
Message:
Have a great day and year.

I hope in this next year you feel comfortable and real.

and that the good stuff is easy for you to to access in your day.
and the anger, greed ,envy,lust,darkness,melencoly,
are one step away from you.

If you change this year I hope you will still value the
feeling of your life force.

Its a source of comfort and its probably god.

Good luck in your evolution,

bill
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 00:18:52 (EDT)
Poster: Burke
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: OY! For this we waited?
Message:
God Almighty!

What is with you?

For three thousand years we kept the faith that you would send us a messiah.

Generation after generation we taught our kids to honor you and pray to you and you were our chosen one and we were your chosen people.

After 3,000 years a guy without a career decides at age thirty that he is the one you promised us.

Well thats challenging but Im game, so I go to the program
and after a nice bread and fish sandwich he starts to speak. Now correct me if Im wrong but he said
---Unless you eat my body and drink my blood you can
not enter the kingdom of heaven.--- Now I dont mind
haveing a picnic on the mount with the guy but when
it comes to eating his body and drinking his blood
is it really that unreasonable that I conclude that he is not
the one you promised us for three thousand years?

Then in his big moment in front of the palace he says-- my
father COULD send angels if I wanted.--
Now Ive known Joe for years and he can swing a hammer real well but command angels he can't.

Then he just about dies on the cross, they think he's
dead, they let him off, he recovers three days later,
visits his friends and relatives and leaves town.

He goes on to be the biggest thing since krishna
and we get destroyed and enslaved ,persecuted,
murdered,and two thousand years later everybody
still tells us that he was the one you promised.

Come one, admit it, after 3,000 years you through us a real curve ball and now 2,000 years later you throw us a screw ball.

God, really, what is the deal?
This is not a sense of humor that you have,
Is this some sort of clue that you dont deal in messengers?
Couldn't you have just said that in the burning bush?
Is there anything else you would like to get off your
chest verbally before we have to endure 5,000 more years of shit to figure it out?
shit to figure you out?
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Date: Wed, Jun 4, 1997 at 10:09:25 (EDT)
Poster: Paul
Email:
To: Burke
Subject: Re: OY! For this we waited?
Message:
Hi again Burke

Just discovered this thread.

Truth is maharaji is not - and never was - a messiah - just a con.

Jesus was - and is!

We were taken in by maharaji - Jesus cares.

Jer 29:11 "I know the plans I have for you, they are for good, and not for evil".

Following Jesus is good.

God bless you.
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 22:54:36 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
I wonder about this. For the past year or so I've discussed M with a bunch of premies, both on and off the net. I haven't met one who has the guts to talk about M honestly. I used to respect the basic premie 'stock' whatever that was. I remember how we all slipped into this cult with so much pride back in the early 70s. M's challenge was straightforward: try it, then you'll know. These were the people, I thought, who were honest enough to admit that they couldn't dismiss him out of hand, no matter how fantastic he seemed. Of course M cultivated that image. We were 'seekers of truth', possessed, to varying degrees of the coveted 'guileless hearts'.

What in the world happened?

Premie after premie comes on the net, or on this board, with anything but sincerity. Yes, OP, that means you. I'm tempted to say, ESPECIALLY you but that would be unfair. You're all cowardly and deceitful.

Why do I say that? Let's look at this new asshole, Anonamous (who I'll call A for obvious reasons). Recall his first post the other day? Diligent advocate of uncompromised search for the truth? What a joke. A few straightforward questions -- honest questions -- and he unravels into just another creep. Mili, you've met your match.

Some of you premies have said you were willing to discuss Maharaji rationally. Chris, I don't think ever has. He's got other problems. But, anyway, several of you guys have said you would but the only thing you've proven is that you can't be trusted. A kid could see through your evasiveness. Indeed, a few kids have already posted in glee here. What could be more fun than poking at hypocrisy on such an obvious level?

So, I just wonder when M did this to all you guys. Any ideas?

No, the one thing I know I'll never get from a premie is honest introspection. M demands a big price from you guys. But I guess you don't see it, do you? Why would you? If he's the standard you measure yourselves by, you're all so hopelessly lost.

When I get angry at you premies I 'curse' you as follows: you will spend the rest of your lives believing in M and wasting your lives accordingly. Before you die, you'll discover that he's a fraud and will have nothing but shame for the cowardice you sheathed yourselves in for so long.

Have a nice day.
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:35:21 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
I don't think you know the meaning of rational discussion. Whenever someone tells you something you can dissect, you do so with more glee than Gunther Glockenspiel discussing snot. And when you find a road you can't cross, you curse and rant and rave and generally find something else to throw daggers at.

It's already been stated several times here that there are some things that are simply matters of who's doing the looking. When I look in the mirror I see one thing, you see another. Stands to reason. Rationally speaking.

I told you I wasn't freaked out by the 'laying on of hands' thing. So you say I am avoiding it. I told you my perspective on Fakiranand. You ignored that.

If you spend the rest of your life running around in circles, maybe YOU'LL end up as syrup on Little Black Sambo's pancakes.
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:38:36 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
you don't have a clue as to what a heart is asshole.
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:41:18 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
you don't have a clue as to what a heart is asshole.

BOBBY! I'm surprised at you!

Go wash your mouth out with soap - NOW!

And to think I always imagined you as the most peaceful of the bunch!
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:42:44 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
I don't think you know the meaning of rational discussion. Whenever someone tells you something you can dissect, you do so with more glee than Gunther Glockenspiel discussing snot. And when you find a road you can't cross, you curse and rant and rave and generally find something else to throw daggers at.

It's already been stated several times here that there are some things that are simply matters of who's doing the looking. When I look in the mirror I see one thing, you see another. Stands to reason. Rationally speaking.

I told you I wasn't freaked out by the 'laying on of hands' thing. So you say I am avoiding it. I told you my perspective on Fakiranand. You ignored that.

If you spend the rest of your life running around in circles, maybe YOU'LL end up as syrup on Little Black Sambo's pancakes.
I don't rant and rave. That's your friend Mili. I condemn in strong terms. Anyways, let me cool down and ask you yet another question, MY FRIEND, what IS the meaning of 'rational discussion'?

By the way, did I ask you if you were freaked out by the 'laying on of hands' trip? Really? Is that what I asked? Funny, I thought I'd asked you how you reconcile the fact that it was a central pillar of the dogma but now is no more.

We KNOW you're not freaked out. You're a premie. I'm trying to ..... no, first I want you to tell me all about 'rational discussion'. Well?
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 23:47:41 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
ha ha ha

Usually I'm quite peaceful. As I've said, Jim pushes my buttons. Calling Jim an asshole this evening was just the natural thing to say. As Anonamous says, he struts around like Rambo on this board. When he pushes me, I push back.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 02:30:17 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
Jim, I don't think it's so hard to understand, just think back to when you were a premie, and how you were able to live with contradiction, cognitive dissonance, irrationality and all the rest by taking little "leaps" of faith. The rational discussion can only go so far, because the subject being discussed is not rational. I think OP would admit that, wouldn't you? And I can basically accept that, and besides, there isn't really a whole lot anyone can do about it on the rational level. The questioning has to come from a deeper level, at least it did for me. A "rational" discussion would NEVER have gotten me to doubt one thing about Maharaj Ji. I had heard it all and was very good at dealing with it. It wasn't until something happened at a more central level of my being that I was able to break the devotional bond I had to him.


And it was only much later after that when I began to even be able to discuss the stuff I do here, like his greed, megalomania, dishonesty, etc. and the negative effects the cult had on me and my life. If anyone had told me, or even suggested those things before I made the break, I either wouldn't have been able to hear them, or they would be assimilated into my faith. In fact, I usually laughed them off.


That's why once you get away from the programming you feel so stupid for not having been able to see what was going on all the time, well at least I did, and so did a lot of the ex-premies I know. They all say they had a very similar experience.


But what is infuriating, and this may be what you are reacting to, is when people like Amous PRETEND to have a rational basis for being a premie. Actually, I don't find it infuriating, I think it's kind of fun, because the "rationality" falls apart so quickly and easily and usually the subject is just dropped, or the premie starts attacking you, as Amous did, as "negative" and "vindictive." Op does that too, but she is nicer about it. I think she said you were into "revenge" and we all are into a "negative obsession." Oooooooooo.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 02:55:14 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
Just one more thing before I forget. And I hope others will comment on this if they can.


I was mentioning ex-premies I know who had experiences very similar to mine both in, and in leaving, the cult, and who have madea lot of effort to understand what happened to them in the cult.


But I also know other (ex)premies who are not into Mahrarj Ji anymore, would never go to a program, for example, don't meditate, don't go to satsang, don't give money, etc. but they have a STRONG aversion to looking at Maharaj Ji and their experience in the cult objectively. So, they just sort of slide out of the cult and into their lives and try to forget that the whole thing ever happened.


It's like there is still some programming there that prevents them taking a good hard look at what that was all about, and certainly not doing so on a rational level. In fact, some of them blame themselves, for being foolish in their youth and having gotten involved in something that turned out to be pretty wasted and stupid, but assigning little or no responsibility to Guru Maharaj Ji. Has anyone else run into this phenomenon?
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 03:42:13 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
Jim doesn't strike me as resembling Rambo.
More like a corner ranter with a bullhorn.
A know-it-all into rationalism.
I wonder what his guitar playing is like.
Maybe Jim isn't a total jerk.
I do give him credit for getting the rumble going.


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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 03:59:54 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
Jim,
Thanks for the kind thoughts.
A curious curse. Got an altar and voodoo dolls? Ouch - g.
I am working on my problems.
But first today I am going to go out and have some fun on my birthday.

Have a fun and exciting day,
CD


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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 20:49:50 (EDT)
Poster: burke
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
I would be freindly to but shun the dark ones who
got confused and left.

As shri hans would say Id rather spend time with 1,000
worldly people than one such as this.

I stood as a beacon for those that had knowledge,wanted knowledge, were half-aspirants, the waiting public,
and the dark ones who left.

Im very commited when Im commited and boy I should have been commited.

as far as those that you talked to who are not taking a good hard look, Where would they go?
My wife wanted me to go to a therapist in feb.
because of what I was sayingto her.
Well I would have to first educate the therapist and
wouldnt that be time consuming to say the least,
and then they would have to figure out a response
and face it, it would be insufficient.

Most probably just went back to their old religion.
Which is a mistake I wont make.
Although I did go to that mens breakfast today.
Its kind of like hanging out with the cast of
Mayberry RFD.
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Date: Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:33:53 (EDT)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
Not got much time here tonight but wanted to say that the ex-premies that puzzle me most are the ones that have zero involvement but still feel an affection for M? Is that programming too JW...I believe it could be. As if they were the ones that just weren't good enough. The saddest part is these people I'm speaking are also substance abusers as well. I'm not worthy so it's comfortable to be an addict?
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 01:21:08 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Chris
Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
Jim,Thanks for the kind thoughts.A curious curse. Got an altar and voodoo dolls? Ouch - g.I am working on my problems.But first today I am going to go out and have some fun on my birthday.Have a fun and exciting day,CD

Ooops - I was out all day and obviously missed your birthday.

So Happy Belated, Chris.

And to think that on Bobby's birthday we had a cake and everything. I hope you don't feel slighted.


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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 01:51:07 (EDT)
Poster: burke
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
Once again Deena you got me tonight.

I know I dont have to say --Imagine-- to you

Imagine the crushing blow it is -------Im going to make this a thread.
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 15:11:31 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: burke
Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
The ex-premies I was referring would not consider themselves "dark ones" or "confused," at least not as "confused" as when they were premies. They are clear that they don't want to be premies, and clear that being a premie was a waste of time, and also that it caused them other problems.


The point I was making is that some ex-premies who feel this way, also tend to blame themselves for foolishly following Maharaj Ji, for foolishly abdicating responsibility for their lives when they did, and they mostly just chock it all up to youthful stupidity and to making some bad decisions to get involved with GMJ in the first place, and for staying with it far too long once they got involved. They don't believe GMJ ever really had much of anything to offer them, but see it all from a sort of "buyer beware" mentality. It was their own damn fault to fall for it.


I think sometimes it's EASIER to take that view, than to do the hard work of examining what happened, why it happened and who was really involved in the process. When you do that, in my opinion, you find that Guru Maharaj Ji bears a large share of the responsiblity. It's not so much a matter of blame, but rather to avoid the "blame-the-victim" mindset. It's also very freeing, because you can stop beating up on yourself and put it all more into perspective.
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 20:22:19 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
Not got much time here tonight but wanted to say that the ex-premies that puzzle me most are the ones that have zero involvement but still feel an affection for M? Is that programming too JW...I believe it could be. As if they were the ones that just weren't good enough. The saddest part is these people I'm speaking are also substance abusers as well. I'm not worthy so it's comfortable to be an addict?
Ive known a couple of ex-premies that got into drugs after they left the cult, but then I knew premies who were heavy into drugs while they were still active premies -- and I knew of several drug dealers who were premies as well. The Miami premie community in the early 80s was overrun with drugs -- it was the height of the Miami Vice cocaine days in Miami.


In fact, while I was community coordinator in Miami, I was told that the DEA had undercover agents attending satsang in the Miami satsang hall because there was so much drug dealing going on there. There was also a lot of drugs coming in on the premie charters from South America to the festivals in Florida, and a lot of drug dealing going on at the Kissimee festivals. There were DEA agents there too.


I think there can be a part of an ex-premie that can feel a sense of failure because so much of our hopes an dreams were pinned on GMJ and when they turn out to be empty, it's common to blame yourself. I think that really is programming, because that's what so many of us did as premies. When anything went wrong, or we were miserable or confused, we tended to blame ourselves, and GMJ did too in his satsangs, as not being surrendered or devoted enough. We just could NEVER put any blame on GMJ, or even think that he wasn't completely perfect, if we only were worthy enough to see it. It's only common sense that some of that programmed thinking could go on after "leaving" the cult. Physically leaving the cult does not mean you have left the cult programming. That takes a lot of work and I think there are a lot of ex-premies who don't really want to do the work. They just want to forget that the whole Guru Maharaj Ji trip ever happened.


I have known a couple of people who are not "into" Maharaj Ji and don't consider themselves premies, but still have a picture of GMJ on their wall (usually in a very out-of-the-way place like a bedroom or a closet). I'm not sure if it's just nostalgia, or something else.
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 20:43:30 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
Physically leaving the cult does not mean you have left the cult programming. That takes a lot of work and I think there are a lot of ex-premies who don't really want to do the work. They just want to forget that the whole Guru Maharaj Ji trip ever happened.

I have known a couple of people who are not 'into' Maharaj Ji and don't consider themselves premies, but still have a picture of GMJ on their wall (usually in a very out-of-the-way place like a bedroom or a closet). I'm not sure if it's just nostalgia, or something else.

I think you're right about ex-premies not wanting 'to do the work' required to leave the cult programming after leaving the cult. Most of the ones that I knew came into DLM after having been raised Christians. (Don't know about non-Western cultures.) I was one of them. We could transfer our original belief structure to now support MJ instead of an invisible Jesus. That was a selling point at the time - that Knowledge would make you a better ______ [whatever faith you were].

But I don't think the framework itself is that easy to tear down for some people. Most of it was already in place when they stumbled into an ashram for the first time, or saw their first aspirant video (as these young whippersnapper premies say). Parents and family members installed most of the planks in the first place. Keeping the clandestine picture of MJ is comparable to the hanging of a 'just in case' crucifix on the wall by non-church-goers who were raised with fundamental Christian beliefs. It's easier to repaint a wall, or paper over the defects, than to tear it out completely.
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 21:27:24 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
Yes, I remember when Guru Maharaj Ji used to say that receiving knowledge would not change your religion. (laugh) He then proceeded to denigrate religions as the empty traditions of dead perfect masters. Can you imagine the ashram premie after arti and meditation heading off to the local catholic church for mass?


I was raised a very strict catholic, including catholic schools and a short stint in a seminary, and I also noticed that the ashrams were full of catholics and jews (not entirely, but far out of proportion to the general population). It seemed that there was a certain predisposition from certain religious backgrounds to accept the authoritarian god/master figure and also to accept a spiritual life that was all-encompasing, like Maharaj Ji's cult was. [I gather, however, that he is now trying to sell it as less demanding than it used to be and "easy" to do, but maybe that is just to get people in the door.]


But Maharaj Ji spoke in such black and white terms: "This is the ultimate truth and Maharaj Ji is your master whom you should surrender too." So, when I discovered that was crap, I couldn't live with the hypocracy of keeping his picture around, or just quietly forgetting the whole thing. That's why the picture in the closet is difficult for me to understand. But maybe it does have something to do with "fear of the lord." Like maybe there is a part of someone saying "what if he really is the perfect master and I go to the Pearly Gates and he's waiting there none too pleased?" I won't follow him, but I won't dismiss him completely either.
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Date: Sun, Jun 1, 1997 at 21:38:34 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: whatever happened to 'guileless hearts'?
Message:
JW, to be fair, why don't you accept the fact that M isn't saying those things these days? If you live in the past, how can he change it? If you use your mind to judge him how can you judge yourself? If you aren't willing to look at yourself, maybe you never really trusted M. Or, if you trusted too much maybe that was a form of mind. Or, if mind itself is okay, maybe you should give him another chance. When was the last time you saw a video? Chris saw one.
By the way, what gives you the right to judge me when I don't even judge myself? And if we don't follow M, who are we going to follow? Not you, I hope. You're too critical of everything!


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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 00:02:06 (EDT)
Poster: burke
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: The outing of Jim
Message:
I swear on the holy---oops

so help me yashua

That Jim is a closet christian.

He is not afraid of m anymore but he is afraid of some higher power.

not just any higher power, but one that wants him
to eat his body and drink his blood

I think for all his alleged deprogramed state,
he has to confess to having a scientifically
unsound relationship with a fantasy god that
he doesnt even know the name of.

I know that the cult is gigantic and borg-like,
and that other cult members frequent this web site,
I think you should all come out of the closet.
Now i know JW isnt in the closet, but he might
belong to that group.

well?
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 00:19:59 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: burke
Subject: Re: The outing of Jim
Message:
What'd I do to deserve this? Bill, have you ever thought of getting into meditation?
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Date: Fri, May 30, 1997 at 11:36:08 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: burke
Subject: Re: The outing of Jim
Message:
I swear on the holy---oops

so help me yashua

That Jim is a closet christian.

He is not afraid of m anymore but he is afraid of some higher power.

not just any higher power, but one that wants him
to eat his body and drink his blood

I think for all his alleged deprogramed state,
he has to confess to having a scientifically
unsound relationship with a fantasy god that
he doesnt even know the name of.

I know that the cult is gigantic and borg-like,
and that other cult members frequent this web site,
I think you should all come out of the closet.
Now i know JW isnt in the closet, but he might
belong to that group.

well?
In order to save space, I keep my computer in the closet, where I'm sitting right now. So, you're wrong if you think I'm not in the closet, because I am, at least at the moment.


Also, I'm not aware of being in any cult, however, the nature of a cult is that the members don't think there in one, so, who knows?
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Date: Thurs, May 29, 1997 at 20:53:00 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Wallpaper
Message:
Scott, can we get some coloured wallpaper? Please, huh, can we? Please? Even Harlan's got some and he's a premie. They LIKE white walls. We don't.

I posted this here to trigger a straw poll. By the way, if any of you guys who know a little about page graphics and stuff, perhaps from producing your own porn pages (what is that 'home-based' business of yours anyways, Deena?), care to, I bet Scott wouldn't mind a suggestion or two, perhpas a little help. Hm?


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