I asked Kurt if he thought I'd like the article. He offered, first, that it certainly isn't the article I, Jim, would have written. ( Well, of course.) He said he cut his brother and sister -- long-time gurunoids -- a little more slack than I might have. Nonetheless, he made it clear in his article that following Maharaji's nuts and that the whole thing's ridiculous. I told him that so long as he did that the rest is small change.

So, there it is. I can't wait.
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' As to deeper interpretations of who he is, they are no good unless it's a personal experience.'

Which premie hasn't? Mili, Chris, OP, A, Tane -- they've all gotten stuck on this one transparent ruse. Why can't they see through it? Why can't they see that, on the simplest level, this sentence makes no sense? I can't recall anyone actually arguing the point with me when I was a gurunoid. Yet I also can't imagine what I'd have said. I mean, the point's so obvious -- 'interpretation' is a mental function. Thinking. Analysis. Reflection. Consideration. You know.

Experience? What's that? The front line of sensory input, I guess. Hey, I know (again, he reaches for Oxford)

'experience: 1) actual observation of or practical acquaintance with facts or events; 2) knowledge or skill resulting from this'

I mean, ask Paul, he'll say he 'experiences' Jesus. Now that wouldn't have anything to do with his beliefs would it? Of course it does. Oh this is all so stupid. I can't believe I'm caught in a dialogue that's on such a pathetic level. I'm going to play a little guitar. This is ridiculous.
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What is the personal 'experience' of music?

I am glad there is more to life than 'facts' and 'events'.

CD
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How inane, Chris.
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I thought, fasten your seatbelt lady.

she told me about how she became a Jehovas Witness
when she was 23 and she was 68 now.
as she blabbered on I looked at her shoes and they were
the big black nun type shoes, then I looked at her
hands and no ring. I started to imagine her in nun clothes
and the centuries of women giving their life to saying the
hail mary hundreds of times a day. All to please a god that
doesnt care about the hail mary. I started to take off her habit and before I got a peek, the Jehova Witness said
something that broke the spell and brought me back to the satsang hall.
She said --And he was nailed to the torture pole-- and I said -- what?!--. she told me he wasnt nailed to a cross but
the original word translation was some word that meant
torture pole and that in that time they didnt waste wood by making a cross they had poles in the ground and your
hands would be nailed together above your head
and she actually had a picture to show me. All this
before coffee.
She said that she is there every day and that 6 days a
week she is out talking to people trying to do god a
favor. I said --What is your name?--( to see if the initials
were O.P.)
She asked me for my name and address and I gave her
Ed's. I said of course you can come talk.
I told ED and he was pissed and I said --hey dont give me that, your the christian here and Yashua(jesus) said--
if two or more are gathered in my name I am there. So I
just booked you an appointment with God!--.
Come on op open up your heart to the universe of love.

Of course it is typical messiah flaw to say some thing like
--If two or more are gathered -- If you are in the so
called name ,where the hell else is god? Im omnipresent
EXCEPT when you are alone.
surely god likes things a bit screwy.
and maharaji is a dead ringer for a messiah
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So you're not far off on this one.

In your eternal line of women giving themselves sexlessly and virtuously to God, what about the gopis? Rather racuous set of nuns, don't you think?
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Anyway, did I say he was flat? Yes, but how flat, you ask. Oh my god! Two hands on temples (perhaps unconsciously protecting my own frontal lobes). Oh my god!

He had the curiosity of a bic pen. No, I want to be fair. Make that a cordless phone. I told him he was being villified for all the world to see right on this web site. That didn't phase him. He had no interest in checking this mess out. Such is the grace.

He told me he couldn't pass along a message to M. It wasn't his place. He knew his place and that wasn't it. He kept telling me to write him. I kept asking what if M didn't answer. He kept saying write another letter. (At one point I remember feeling grateful that I wasn't paying for this call). His interest in my end goal -- of establishing some communication with M -- was 'well-controlled' to say the least. To that end, did I say he was flat?

Mr. Smtih, unlike Deena, told no funnies. After all, what could be funny? Funnies are when M tells a joke. Those are funnies. I felt he was saving himself.

Mr. Smith was as warm as roadkill and NOT the furry kind. He was as cordial as a rotten mango. (Know what a mango tastes like? Don't answer -- that's the first question they use to get you into cults. Stay away from all Mango talk!)

Mr. Smith reminded me of ...... I felt that he was already screwing up his barogon as we got off the phone. I can't wait for his fiftieth birthday party. We're all invited and I hear it's going to be something else. Cake, cookies (right, OP?) and you name it. Songs. Soda water. You can wear a tie, you can NOT wear a tie. Your call. We're talking PARTY!!
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When I look at his picture I'm reminded of the time he was at arm's reach from me and addressed me personally to go to Rome. He was pathetically insecure as he insisted I should go because it was going to be a wonderful event. Of course I thought it was his humility I was witnessing but I remember a twinge, a question as to his own uncertainty in his voice as if trying to convince himself. He was extremely relaxed at the time, so perhaps this is the real M...descriptions of Gurus in cults include that very same insecure personality as well as the arrogant meglamania and narcisstic behavior. My spelling sucks. Grade 9 just doesn't cut it. Grovel, grovel, grovel....oops, I floated for a few seconds....it happens, triggers that thrust ex-cult members into past mind sets. But it happens so infrequently., thank who? Just who do I thank now that I don't thank God? It is so inconvient being agnostic!

I won't be on the forum for a while, just had some extra time today and I've had fun. See ya all again! I love you guys....I know that's a strong word, but I mean it...but of course I'm not at the point where I can feel love for people who would sooner off me than let me continue to share my ex-cult feelings and thoughts. The so-called world I never trusted, supports that I am sane now. Only premies are unsupportive of my discovery that Maharaji is a cult leader Mind you, my husband is a premie and the only exception so far. By loving me he supports me as I am, even though at first he was repulsed by that, now he must be questioning in some small recesses of his being. I say this because I know he is attracted to the change in me. Not trusting M can't be all the bad is what he is witnessing. Maybe someday, watching a video or when he is at an event he'll have an awakening and eventually he'll be able to leave too. I wish he knew how great it feels to be free.
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You can still say 'Thank God!', according to the bylaws. You just can't expect to hear 'You're Welcome' is all.

By loving me he supports me as I am, even though at first he was repulsed by that, now he must be questioning in some small recesses of his being. I say this because I know he is attracted to the change in me.

Perhaps I should let you in on a guy secret. He's attracted to fallen angels, like all men. No longer saintly, you now become extremely sexy. Jesus felt that way about Mary Magdalen and her foot-fetish, probably. Even guy-saints have one-track minds ya know.
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Upon hearing that Bob Dole had lent Newt Gingrich $300,000 to pay his fine, Senator Tom Harkin (D, IA) commented: "That's the first time an airbag was saved by a person!" Yuk, yuk

Also, since he's so "flat", perhaps we should consider approprating from our ex-premie treasury, funds to get some speed to give Mr. Smith for his 50th birthday, or maybe some Prozac. Do we have a quorum? Is there a second? Brian, do the bylaws allow us to give drugs to premies?
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It's also truly amazing that Smith has been a DLM/Elan Vital stalwart since 1974 or before and that's 23 years. When was the last time he had a real job in the real world? When was the last time he had an intimate relationship with another human being? When was the last time he had an independent thought? Given his level of emersion in the cult as well as the long time periods involved, I'm suprised he has even the "flat" personality left that Jim described.
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I like how he is himself....comletely.He enjoys debate and doesn't deny his feelings of rage and amusement. On the other hand, premies who first post sincere and humble expressions of themselves, very quickly become everything Maharaji's love, contentment, fullfillment, peace, supreme bliss isn't! The venomous, crude, condescending and often base animal instinct takes over and transforms them. Truely, if you go back in the archives and follow each premie from first to latest post, it is as if they become unrecognizable.

At an event where M is speaking the premies gather with the sweetest of anticipations and the love that explodes when he first walks out on stage is overwhelming. At that moment, in the realm of knowledge, in Maharaji's world, the illusion of this petty and trivial passtime of discussion with ex-premies becomes clearly meaningless. I'll give my husband that much, he's enjoying life too much to lose that feeling that is so precious to him by bothering to waste his time being here.

Now, about Jim. It is clear why he is here. I can't figure out how he has the status of leader on this forum. I don't think he has done anything to deserve that honor. Sorry Jim. But frankly, I'd be surprised if any of the ex-premie's here were interested in following anyone after their experience with M.
Anyways, as I was saying about Jim, he is self described as angry and enjoying debate. He'd like at least one premie to discuss very sensitive confronting issues concerning M and premies usually lose it long before he that happens. It would be novel if lenghy disscussion, without spewing, ever occured. But I doubt it ever will, just like many posts that I've written go completely ignored by premies...say the one that Burke liked concerning M's father. That is not the first time I've brought up that here. Amusingly enough I have written about the same topic several times and premies skip over any discussion. I know I'm not the only ex-premie to experience this. The only difference is that Jim insists that he gets some feedback, holds premies accountable etc. and understandably he gets annoyed by the continual avoidence.

It amazes me how sweet people like op,Mous, etc. can become as vile as Jim when that is part of Jim's personallity but they on the other hand probably don't show this in their personality, except on this forum. But I'm only quessing here, maybe if I were to visit their homes I'd discover that practise of knowledge and having a Perfect Master doesn't mean choosing bliss over the way the world eats you up and spits you out, as M always talks about.

If I were to say anything to premies, it would be: this is an ex-cult, ex-premie site that you visited and found a forum where disscussion was welcome from premies. But the fact that it is an ex-cult, ex-premie site doesn't excape your understanding of what that means. People like myself, ex-premies, who obviously are here because they feel M is the leader of a cult, are at different stages of understanding the programmiing and it's effects after leaving a cult. If you can imagine for one moment, that if you discovered that in fact, Maharaji is a fraud, anger and the need to understand what happened in your life would be your motivation for particpating in a forum such as this.

If I have a question, it would be the same one many ex-premies have asked..... what is a premie's motivation for participating on this forum with ex-premies?

I'm fully aware that there is the possibilty that premies will just chalk up this post to Deena's defense of her friend Jim. But Jim doesn't need my help. He's just fine. He is my friend, as JW, Brian, Scott, Gunther's mom, and others I'm forgetting to mention but consider friends. They have been there for me, and because my need to share my doubts and confusion wasn't answered with "It's just your mind, go practise and everything will be fine" I am alive today and enjoying the freedom of not being in a cult. And yes, I am grateful....grateful to the ex-premies who have reached out and shared...... and been supportive.
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In the ashram premies denied themselves to serve M. Many people still do. M wouldn't want to own in my old car, nor would he want to wear David Smith's torn underwear, (trust me, I washed them, and he was in dire need of a new wardrobe)

My point? It's that for the first time in my life I would enjoy going into debt to drive a luxury car everyday and not save my pennys for less than an hour program with M where I can experience the ultimate feeling in this life and be reminded that it's within me all the time....expensive addiction when you gear your life that way. Sure, I know, a car is just a car. But then how come for 25 years M has never denied he buys the best because that is what he enjoys. Oh, I forgot. He doesn't need to deny his or his familys needs 'cause his master is dead and doesn't cost him anything. That is conveniant isn't it. And he knocks people who follow dead masters...at least it's a hell of a lot cheaper! That is if you don't need a middleman like Billy Graham or the Pope etc. What can I say. You'll never get a premie to admit there is a price tag connected with the fulfillment in their lives. They'll rationalize that away. But I've seen premies drop everything to go see M. I've witnessed premies barely having enough money to do that and call it Grace when you see them at the program with that blissed out smile. They feel it is all perfect whether they go or not. After all, he is in their hearts even if they can't be with him. Fact is they need him. Fact is without him they do feel lost. In other words, M and his teachings has a hefty price to pay and when premies aren't meditating they feel something is missing and they tell themselves that they should meditate. They live alot of the time with that I should stuff in their lives. And they pine, long and even are frustrated when they hear about events they can't get to....but the longing is so sweet, that pain isn't suffering because it's the only pain worth feeling. So premies are paying emotionally if not financilly. I've heard it in their voices and I've seen it in their eyes for many years now.

I for one, don't miss that addiction.

Oh yeah, my husband shows great interest in the sanity of living with an ex-premie...maybe his sanity is in staying with me despite his programming. He's enjoying this ex-cult member very much it would seem. And I am enjoying that he is secretly an ex-premie in his own right by the very act of staying with me. What premie would unless he had serious doubts?
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My son is mocking me because I keep saying that this is my last post....I just don't have time for this and yet here I am! He's a great kid, and I'm happy he shares my joy of leaving a cult....bye for now...
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Really, Deena, I do appreciate this post. You're right all the way. I just want some of these fuckers who claim that they're into rationality to walk the walk. OP, you are fully right, for my money; rationality's all about letting logic press its full weight in a discussion. Yet you haven't done that at all.

Back to Deena -- no, back to Deena as an example. I've talked with Deena a few times. We've argued. In a lot of ways she's like some of those hyper-aggresive chicks that dominated the mission in the beginning. Opinionated and outspoken. But the point is we actually argued. Do you know what that means? We considered each other's points fairly and openly as we made our own. WE subjected ourselves to possible persuasion by the other. At least that's what it seemed -- well, seems, of course -- like to me.

OP, you strike as one with a basically genteel personality. Maybe even lighter than Deena in some ways. Who knows? But the big diff between you two is that you're not trustworthy. She is.

Here's an example. In argument we're always tempted to advance some point to protect another. Everyone does it. It's natural and spontaneous. The problem, though, is that in doing so we often transgress some other point we also depend on. Hence, inconsistency or, to be perfectly frank, hypocrisy.

I've experienced talking with Deena and getting to points where I can't help but notice and point out her inconsistencies. When I have, she's always looked at my comment openly and has either made a reasonable counter-argument or, instead, has conceded. I've tried to do the same.

You, OP, play the other way. Not willing to concede anything you've gone to increasingly absurd lengths to protect this point or that. My only question to you is do you really need me to spell these out for you OR, for a change, can you be honest enough to self-criticize a bit. A car without reverse is useless. The first thing Maharaji did to all of us when he got us in his garage was try to ruin that gear.

Deena, I'm completely with you that these premies have shown such hypocrisy here. But what can you do with a hypocrite who doesn't want to even see his hypocrisy? See, I ask OP stuff like I just did because I still have some lingering hope for her. I still think she has enough pride to not be shamelessly hypocrtical. I guess, I'm just trying to shame her into 'right action' or 'right words' or whatever you want to call it.

My biggest sin on this board has just been that I lose my temper. I long for the mythical premie who I can lead into reason. Sort of a telescoped version of my own evolution. I want to see it all over again. Again and again. Is that a sin? I don't think so. Am I setting myself up for disappointment? Apparently.
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(cat: feline, known to purr contentedly and lash out viciously in defense)

Sometimes I avoid op because a cat fight could erupt- something men are known to enjoy, I can hear the hooting and hollering now. But it's not worth my energy.
Jim do you think op will address the question of what motivates premies to be on this forum?. I mean, I've covered quite a few reasons premies are here. And she does communicate with premies off the forum. Do you think she'll answer, do you master, I mean Jim, do you, huh, huh?

You're right, I am a know it all, from a family of know it alls, and I can be impossible to talk to because I have a habit of wanting to be right so I don't listen. You nailed it on the head. Not flattering, but true That's why it was so incredably difficult for me to admit I was wrong about Maharaji.
Fortunately for my family and friends there is a balance in my life where I really enjoy simple pleasures, like walking my dog and hanging out with my cats. Outdoors in nature my analytical mind is quiet and I can just be. Actually having a good shit does that too. Who needs meditation anyways, just sit on the throne. The effect lasts for hours, sometimes even all day! And you don't even have to stick your fingers anywhere, (although that IS optional)

I too long to witness the aspirant process in reverse. Obviously in my husband it would be nice. Am I setting myself up for disappointment too? I'm willing to give it some time.

George Carlin was on Larry King Live the other night and spoke about his wife who passed away 3 weeks ago. In the 70's they were substance abusers and she got sober overnite but it took him much longer. When Larry asked if she tried to get him to quit, he said she was always in his corner and respected him for his intelligence. In his own time he quit. New tactic for us? Maybe for me in my situation but understandably too boring for you.

Asking forgiveness for my boldness and humbly bowing down in you cyberr presence, I respectfully sign off. I am not worthy, I am not worthy.

PS...thanks for making me laugh, you made a few roaringly funny funnys. You are right up there with Bugs Bunny in my books Jim. Now don't tell me you don't like him either? And watch First Contact, humor me please, for me?, I promise you'll have some good laughs if you follow the dialoge. And you'll be happy to know that Captain Kirk (and his Stratford syle of overacting) is not in this movie, which, as Martha Stewart would say, is a good thing.
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When I first received knowledge, I had a dream in which I saw Maharaji stumbling because he was drunk and he was smoking a cigarette as well. I remember waking up trying to rationalize how I could have such a disrespectful dream. I decided that it was to show me his teachings were going to blow all my concepts. Too bad I didn't take my doubt serious enough to consider the possibility that in fact, my master could be a fraud. My son wants to say something now:

Hi Jim. Seeing as we're on the topic of smoking, I wanted to tell you that I have smoked a few cigarettes, like the taste, but will quit now because of my health. What are your views on smoking? Do you think Maharaji wants us to smoke?
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Hi, Deena's son. I gotta jump in here, cause I can I guess. MJ wants us to do anything that we want to do, as long as it doesn't cause him any irritation and we do it at his Lotus Feet. Things that are laced with high doses of adoration are fine, but cash is preferred. It is best that you save your cigarette money and just send it to him directly, so he can do the most good with it.

< grin >
And tell your mom to quit sucking up to Jim. She's just in awe of him because he lives in the Canadian Tropics along the US border. It's disgusting to watch her gush over him.
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Hi Jim. Seeing as we're on the topic of smoking, I wanted to tell you that I have smoked a few cigarettes, like the taste, but will quit now because of my health. What are your views on smoking? Do you think Maharaji wants us to smoke?
Deena, You've made a very good funny! That's two now. Watch out Brian!

Deena, I reread my 'she's-a-housemother-but-she's-okay' left-handed compliment to you. Thanks for taking it in the spirit intended. How else could I explain to these dweebs that you're no one's lackey without giving them a sense of how dangerously combative you are 'in person'? It's all service. Don't take it seriously.

Good. Now that we've cleared that up, don't smoke. I hear it's not good for you.
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< grin >
And tell your mom to quit sucking up to Jim. She's just in awe of him because he lives in the Canadian Tropics along the US border. It's disgusting to watch her gush over him.
< /grin >
Do you know what you do when you're jealous? Think about it. You make 'gell' of 'us'. Get it?

Get your own gopis, Brian. How 'bout Burke? NO -- forget I ever said that. I don't want to start that shit again. (You know what you do when you start shit again? Think about it.)
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I remember another time I was in a relatively small group (maybe about 100 premies) and Maharaj Ji came to give "satsang" but instead talked almost the entire time about a new, red Ferrari he had just gotten. He really believed that we were interested in nothing more that hearing about his new $100,000 car and how neato cool it was. And you know what? I think he was right about most of us.
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Yes. As we have discussed, if a typical member of the premie species trys to present a rational basis for being a premie (of which there is NO ratinal basis), they soon get backed into a corner and cannot respond when the contradictions and inconsistencies are pointed out to them by non-cult members who are actually thinking (a terribly unfair advantage). Sometimes the species will then turn and flee, or, like Amous, attack. Amous did it with words like "asshole" and "fucker," and even attacked your sexual prowess (or your alleged lack thereof) and I think might have accused you of putting your excrement on his chair, (territory marking, no doubt), while OP was nicer about her attacks and just said we ex-premies have "negative obsessions" and that at least you are out for "revenge." OP tends to exhibit much more of the "flee" behavior, by which she disappears into the black hole of vagueness.

This is all casebook stuff Jim, you know, on page 108 of "The Guru Papers?" It's the chapter entitled "The Fight or Flight Response of Cult Members Who Make Feeble Attempts to Think For Themselves."

By the way Jim, I love you too, but only as a friend, okay?
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People usually got to be around GMJ because they had money, or they were good at promoting themselves to or were friends with, people who have decision-making authority over who got considered for "service" around the lord, or, I think in some cases, they fit into the "image" of what premies around the Lord should look like, which was sort of Jet-set yuppie. When I was in DC, for example, I got a call from OGM ("the Office of Guru Maharaj Ji") and they had heard about s sister in the ashram there who was being considered for a service there. Now this wasn't the residence, but contact with GMJ was definitely a regular possibility. Anyway, this sister didn't really want to go, but she went because she was summoned by the lord. She was a nice person, but she had no special skills. I think she was selected because she looked just like Brooke Shields and that was the image they were after.

In some cases people has special skills, like being a trained pilot or trained as a professional chef. But I think Anon was correct that usually if you were humble and just practiced knowledge, you would be unlikely to have gotten noticed for the "darshan-type" service assignments.
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Now let me tell you about myself. I can certainly become as vile as the next person when provoked. That is MY background. I am not a saint and wouldn't want to be one. When I see bullshit I won't stand for it, now as I wouldn't before I received Knowledge. When I see the way Heller treats unsuspecting premies you gleefully stumble into this rats-nest, it appauls me. He has no respect for the valid experiences of these people and bends and twists the answers they give to his questions. He lures them into the discussion in the name of being open-minded, when in fact he, and the rest of you, are the most closed minded bunch of misenthrops I've ever stumbled upon.

Don't get me wrong I have a very sweet experience of life, that is my boat and my keel, and that luckily isn't touched by the stupididty that gets spewed here. What is it, did you think just because someone has Knowledge that their balls suddenly shrivel up and they walk around in a catatonic state of bliss? I guess a gentle, sweet 'premie' would be the easiest for you guys to push around wouldn't it.

I have no use whatsoever for the bullshit that people put in these pages. You offer no proof for the maligned explanations you give of past occurrances and have no one to be accountable to for your statements.

And Deena you so pompously give your 'explanations' of the 'stages' of recovery you're in from the cult. What crap! You seem to think that being a mother is the seat of all wisdom. I'd like to ask just why you got involved in the first place? Did you know what you wanted to get out of it? If you received Knowledge in the last 20 years, you should have had ample time to check it out before you jumped in. Did you get involved because you husband was involved? Where do you begin to take responsibility for your own actions?

So this is a support group for ex-premies is it? I thought it was a forum for open discussion and exchange of ideas. I'm here 'cause I've got a few ideas of my own.

;-)
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My biggest sin on this board has just been that I lose my temper. I long for the mythical premie who I can lead into reason. Sort of a telescoped version of my own evolution. I want to see it all over again. Again and again. Is that a sin? I don't think so. Am I setting myself up for disappointment? Apparently.
Heller, you really, really are full of shit!!! You are really good you know that. If you could train that devious mind to be disciplined and focused on money and power you could rule the world. Thank God that for the good of mankind you're such a loser.

Really, your sincerity almost sounds real. Hey, virtual sincerity to go with your virtual machismo!

;-)
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;-)
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' When I see the way Heller treats unsuspecting premies you gleefully stumble into this rats-nest, it appauls me.'

Are you suggesting that anyone posts here without reading a bit of the discussion first? Preposterous.

Then you say:

'He has no respect for the valid experiences of these people and bends and twists the answers they give to his questions.'

Now, this is such a silly premieism. I'm always amused by it. If you substituted 'opinions' or 'beliefs' for 'experiences' you'd never say this, would you? It's okay to disagree with someone's beliefs, right? Just not their 'experiences', right?
Alright then, point well taken, let's leave your experiences alone. What are your beliefs?

See M fucked you over big time when he screwed up your vocabulary. He expropriated the word 'experience' and splashed it all over everything. As if to say, 'that's mine, the rest is mind' and that was that. Even when I lived in the ashram I knew that was kind of wierd. I knew that whatever one experiences, your mind immediately begins analysing and contextualizing it. Unavoidable. So why not call a spade a spade and look at what beliefs have settled in?

Premies are pathetically laughable when they rigidly stammer 'experience, experience' as if to ward off all introspection. Remember that word, 'introspection'? Remember how you said you valued it so highly and were SO committed to it? Well, isn't introspection a thought process?

Now, before you start giving me any of that premie funny money I think I'll check Oxford. Here it is:

'introspection: the examination or observation of one's own mental and emotional processes, etc.'

So how do you examine your mental processes, bud? Are they up for grabs? Like, are you looking for possible mistakes or, instead, do you just hold everything in there sacred somehow? Ah, but these are tricky questions aren't they? BLACK MAGIC!!!

Spooky! (Mr. Music, a little 'twilight zone' theme, will ya?) We are going to ask you ....QUESTIONS! Ah HA! Yes, that's right! Questions..... to make you.......THINK!! Ah Ha!!

Maybe, A, if you feel so strongly about the nefarious trap's we have in store for the unsuspecting premie lambs like yourself who have fallen into our evil clutches, you should post a big, fat warning over on Harlan's page. 'DON'T GO TO THE EX-PREMIE PAGE! THEY'RE TALKING! REPEAT -- DON'T GO TO THE EX-PREMIE PAGE! YOU MIGHT BE ASKED QUESTIONS! WE CANNOT PROTECT YOU FROM ALL THESE QUESTIONS. THEY ARE LIKE VIRUSES AND MAY BE FATAL TO YOUR FAITH! INSTEAD, IF YOU MUST, INTROSPECT ON YOUR OWN, FIRMLY HOLDING YOUR TRUTH WITH BOTH HANDS. JAI SAT CHIT ANAND!'
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How would you explain the fact that placebo drugs can sometimes cure people better than scientifically designed ones? If you were a researcher would you disregard the people who've been cured by placebo just to prove your point? Or would you accept the possibility that something has just happened beyond the realm of your sphere of mental scrutiny. But that would take at least a little humility, wouldn't it?

First let me say there is a difference between intellegence and wisdom. Of the two, intelligence is the currently accepted cool thing. Wisdom gets less air-time. The primary questions that I seek to answer regarding Knowledge is, 'Does it feel good? Has my deepest thirst to be fulfilled been quenched?'. To these I can answer a definite 'yes'. And to say this, I have definitely not forfeited my ability or desire to look rationally at life or Maharaji. This is called BALANCE.

You on the other hand have forfeited your right to simply feel without grinding that feeling through the mulcher of 'intellegent thought'. To quote you from your last posting '...whatever one experiences, your mind immediately begins analysing and contextualising it'. Let's call a spade a spade Jim: Sounds like you've got a hyperactive mind. Say, do you do a complete analysis on whether or not it feels good to take a dump in the morning (or whenever it happens for you). When you have a good meal that someone has lovingly made for you does it first pass through your brain before it hits your toungue? Your imbalance demonstrates an INCREDIBLE lack of wisdom. The problem with this approach: intelligence invented the atomic bomb and lack of wisdom caused it to be used.

But Jim you're not a cold calculating automoton without a heart, I can see that. Maybe if you were sitting face to face with the people you condescend to, your humanity would be given the opportunity to speak. I think it's the virtual nature of your interactions here that permit you to be such a misenthrop. You know that 'push-button war' syndrome where you never get to see and interact in a real way the people you've just abused. Yeah, yeah I know Jim you feel you've been abused by Maharaji so all's fair here. I'd say be introspective yourself and DON'T draw the line of scrutiny from your neck up and waist down.

:o)
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Anything taken to the "extreme" has it's problems, as Plato taught regarding "moderation." But Socrates was presecuted because he taught ideas that were thought to be dangerous to the state, (and also because he was impious and supposedly corrupting the youth of Greece) not because he was "too rational."
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practise of buddhaism, practice of meditation, practice, let me find the dictionary. To do frquently or as a rule.

So what do you do frequently? What did buddha say to
do frequently?

I hope you are inclined to respond.
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I don't know Chirs but that's a DAMN good question!
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I hope you are inclined to respond.
Burke, ol' boy, I would if I could.

What the fuck are you talking about?
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ps made a claim that buddhaism has a long tradition of using reason AND experience to base its practise.
and that using only ones experience is a dangerous practise.

I have yet to find anything about Buddha that isnt
complete bullshit.
So without saying that,I was hoping the ALTERNATIVE
buddist P.S. would unearth something real and not use
fraudulent statements like
we(we?) buddhists(you are a buddhist? is that what you think? sorry,not true.)have a long tradition(is your experience connected to someone else?) of using
reason(what reason?) and not just experience(experience?
experience of what?) to base our practise(practise?
what did buddha say to practise?).

Id like to see one buddhist in my lifetime show the ability
to talk clearly and straight.

no offense meant
I mean im not Jim for christs sake
there are many paths right? nope. prove it.
or at least try.
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It wouldn't be very rational to persecute them after they were dead, Chris. It would be like being devoted to them after they're dead. Right, Paul? Right, MJ?
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The B.
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You re pretty good. Say, are in public relations, you seem to know
all the tricks of deceit. On one hand in one posting you admit
that you ve been too cocky and agressive, then you turn around and call
me an asshole for no appearant reason. What is it? Do you hate losing
so much that you re willing to forfeit even your facade of genuiness,
or did you slip-up.

If you want sincerity asshole, first give some respect to the people
you want it from. But of course you really don t want sincerity do you?
From what I can see you re bankrupt in the guiless department. You re
just a snake in the grass hoping the next premie that comes along will
take you at your word and 'debate' truth open-mindedly (an oximoron if
I ever heard one), and will honestly talk about their deepest feelings
just to have you carve them up like little lambs.

I can say this about the others members of F-troop, at least they display
SOME integrity, albeit a confused brand of it. For you, on the other hand,
this is obviously just a stupid macho game. This is probably the only arena
in the world a loser like you can garner any respect (although having the
admiration of the other inhabitants of this website is no great feat). It s
the only explanation I can think of my friend. Otherwise you wouldn t spend
all day glued to your computer monitor, you d be out there getting some real
respect in the real world. I d say your suffering from a bad case of virtual
machismo. Look Martha it looks so real!!!

Get it straight asshole, I m not evading your questions, I m just going to
play by my rules and not by yours. And my rule is I don t defend Maharaji or
what I hold precious to pricks like you. Hey, it s still a free world here
on the forbidden planet isn t it?

I ask this of the other premies who visit this dank little corner of cyberia,
why do you feel you have to defend the things that are precious to you from
the useless mianderings of snakes like Jim Heller? He doesn't give jack-shit
about open discussion. His mind is slammed shut! You only end up looking as
much a loser as he is.

;o|
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See that picture at the top of this board? What does that tell you? We're ANALYSING
here, get it? Maybe that's not what you want to do. Fine.
But, you have to admit, dear friend, that you first presented yourself as someone
who not only took pride in 'facing questions squarely' but you even expressed
disdain for those unwilling to do the same.

You know what I think? I think you're flailing Mili-style. I particularly
like your ending. How pathetic for someone afraid of talking
about something to blame someone else for having a closed mind.
How funny, really. Face it, fella, you don't know if you're coming or going.
You've exploded with a lot of emotion but where's the reason? You don't care?
Alright. Your call. But, again, what in the world are you doing here then?

Long after you're gon
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Long after you're gonI'm coming. Yes, I'm definitely coming. No I'm going. Oh God Jim
now you've got me all screwed up!

This isn't an 'ex-premie' page. It's an 'everything you want to
know about Maharaji or his followers page'. If you wanted an 'ex-premie'
page where you could all hang out and stroke each other, why didn't you
say so. Hope you're not saying I'm not welcome Jim. If you must know I'm
really here to get stroked too.

Emotion??? Explode??? Oh, do you mean because I used some strong words?
Hey, ASSHOLE, I didn't start it, you did!

Say Jim, just because someone doesn't submit to a stream of diahretic cross-
examination willingly, does that mean they're afraid to talk about it, or just
being selective?

;-)
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What's that about? I was reading along and the rest of your words seem to have fallen off the edge.

RE your top-of-page logo - Analyzing? In your DLM-style haircut-and-tie garb? It could be a security meeting. So don't point at the logo, or I'll start raving about the machismo and racist implications again.

You want me to define 'rational discussion'? I think it has something to do with following a line of thought to it's logical conclusion, without chewing up the person who has opposing views. Literally. I find it very hard to discuss politics with a crocodile, because I have to spend so much time dodging his snapping jaw.

Tell Deena I grew up just fine without her help, thank you very much. And I was the first kid on my block to find out about Santa Claus.

Tell us again about your conversation with David Smith. You left for a holiday right after that phone call. Did it mean anything to you? You never mentioned it after you got back.

But then, can we trust anything you say, or do we always have to find the tongue hiding in your cheek on our own?

By the way, exactly how am I a liar?
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I asked you yesterday - do you have an e-mail address I could where I could send you something?

If you don't want to post it here, you could send it to Chris and he can forward it to me. You wouldn't mind, would you Chris?

This debate is ever-n'ending.
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My Go . My Go.

Why did you never answer any of the questions I posted to you a few nights ago ? I dont think you want a rational discussion.

Myself I'm feeling a lot better since I've tried to take it all as a joke. Ok its not going to work all of the time , but I think we owe Maharaji the favour not to take him at his word, eg seriously. Its all an absurd joke and we have all had the piss pulled rotten out of us.
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It isn't all that great of a image, since the angle it's drawn from is too direct. The man is pointing at a picture on the wall. See the picture? Recognize anyone?

BTW, Scott, you gotta trim that toothbrush mustache. It's sagging badly.
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That < > at the top of the post was supposed to contain Jim's unfinished long after you're gone

That's what the question is about - just what were you getting at that went unfinished??
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I need Scott to figure this one out!

At the bottom of Jim's post appear the words 'long after you're gon' and then nothing. I've tried to post them as a quote twice, and both times they disappear from my post. Let's see if they show up now, simply as part of a paragraph.
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Sheesh! I have to disagree.This is a tough crowd.

why dont you try being funny on this website.
my history of the jews was a small masterpiece.

You are mad at someone who dares hate someone you love.
maybe you dont love him the way we did.

If you date someone and you go hang around thier
ex-lovers.
What you will get is thier stories about what that person is like.
No one here has heard my story yet and I tried to write it last night.
It was so incredibly damning and true that op would be
instantly changed. And you too.
I erased it because it was to much for me!
The truth of maharaji's personal behavior is way more shocking then you can believe.
And all along the way I made excuses for him.
amazing how much you will just allow If the guy is the lord.
He said in 95 he HOPES no one will write a book.
Well why should he hope that?
You dont know maharaji at all.
and when you watch the videos you are too limited in
your knowledge of him to even hear all that he says.
I started to erupt last night.
My friend at work ed said I have lava coming out my
ears.
he is right but I cant erupt yet, Im still to tied up to
make the full break.
Im smart enough to have figured out how maharaji could be stopped globally but that brings up a lot more things to consider and if you check my thing about the jews
you will see that I dont think the larger power really cares
like we do about the people on this earth having clarity instead of religion. And maybe the larger power likes
humans to be slightly or largely mucked up.
And my real thought about god these days is that
the breath is where he or it is located and it is never
the powers intention that we realize that a living being
actually has the power of life and could really exercise it
if they knew what to do. all the guys that came and
revealed the life were flawed and the so called knowledge
was always replaced by a ridiculouse religion.
Quotes about the word become interpreted to
mean stupid things.
I think maharaji will win in spite of all the vicious personal
behavior that has lessened but not stopped.
The big power likes a flawed trip and only some are
able to see clearly his game.
maharaji will prevail because the arena of info about god
has always been flawed and obviosly the god does not
have the same priority list that we do.
I am not sure I want to wage war against gods latest hand picked madman.
I have studied most of the religions and I geuss this is my
spontanious thesis
Good luck anan number 2 , and if you persist would you please pick a new name or learn how to spell.
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I'm familiar with the rage...it is good to scream as loudly as you can, it feels so good. I don't find myself needing to these days, so I know it helps. Your comparison to ex-lovers in relationships is right on. Looking forward to reading more.
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im exhausted

im frozen

it might take a while

I'll be here but i might be quiet for a while

im not trying to tease and i know you know that
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;o|
Oh come on, Amous, if you really feel strongly about something, why don't you just come out and say what you mean; stop being so goddam diplomatic and polite!

"You're so full of shit I can hardly sit on my chair."

WHOSE shit is preventing you from sitting on your chair?

"I'm not avoiding your questions, I'm just going to play by my rules and not yours."

Just so we know, what ARE your rules? I think I know one you told me earlier -- that you don't answer posts with "too many words." How many is too many?

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If you date someone and you go hang around thier
ex-lovers.
What you will get is thier stories about what that person is like.
No one here has heard my story yet and I tried to write it last night.
It was so incredibly damning and true that op would be
instantly changed. And you too.
I erased it because it was to much for me!
The truth of maharaji's personal behavior is way more shocking then you can believe.
And all along the way I made excuses for him.
amazing how much you will just allow If the guy is the lord.
He said in 95 he HOPES no one will write a book.
Well why should he hope that?
You dont know maharaji at all.
and when you watch the videos you are too limited in
your knowledge of him to even hear all that he says.
I started to erupt last night.
My friend at work ed said I have lava coming out my
ears.
he is right but I cant erupt yet, Im still to tied up to
make the full break.
Im smart enough to have figured out how maharaji could be stopped globally but that brings up a lot more things to consider and if you check my thing about the jews
you will see that I dont think the larger power really cares
like we do about the people on this earth having clarity instead of religion. And maybe the larger power likes
humans to be slightly or largely mucked up.
And my real thought about god these days is that
the breath is where he or it is located and it is never
the powers intention that we realize that a living being
actually has the power of life and could really exercise it
if they knew what to do. all the guys that came and
revealed the life were flawed and the so called knowledge
was always replaced by a ridiculouse religion.
Quotes about the word become interpreted to
mean stupid things.
I think maharaji will win in spite of all the vicious personal
behavior that has lessened but not stopped.
The big power likes a flawed trip and only some are
able to see clearly his game.
maharaji will prevail because the arena of info about god
has always been flawed and obviosly the god does not
have the same priority list that we do.
I am not sure I want to wage war against gods latest hand picked madman.
I have studied most of the religions and I geuss this is my
spontanious thesis
Good luck anan number 2 , and if you persist would you please pick a new name or learn how to spell.
Thanks for your treatise. I hardly understood a word of it but it was nicely formatted.

You say I don't know Maharaji. What makes you say that and how would you know? I ask you, how intimate do you know him? Is your level of 'intimacy' based on the hearsay of sore losers like Mishler? Heller? Are you familiar with the circumstances aroud Mishler's departure, and his grasp for power?

I've read postings on this site giving negative spins on everything Maharaji does from spending time with the people who love him, to having a jet to travel to be with those people. Then there's that bogus story out of Nigeria which was a complete red-herring. The editorial license taken on this page is appauling. This is is exactly why the web has such a hard time gaining credibility -- i.e., NO ACCOUNTABILITY. In other words you and the rest of F-Troop can get on your blow-horn and spin the story in any direction you want without having to be accountable to anybody but yourselves. And you call it democracy in action. I call it totally irresponsible!

You know, a negative slant could be spun about Mother Theresa if you bring in enough malice of intent, half-truths, and 'quoted notables'. Of course feeding the poor is a hands down winner in the qualifications for sainthood. Making people happy by showing them inner peace is a little harder to measure and therefore less of a qualifier.

So Knowledge didn't work for you guys. So instead of admitting maybe it just wasn't for you and moving on, you find a soap box to spout off, spinning the events so far out of proportion that it's laughable. I find myself saying, 'My God, was this guy at the same event as I was?'

Here's an interesting thought Burke: You really don't know for sure whether Maharaji is for real or not, do you? (Go ahead say you REALLY are, then give me your proof, not heresay. While you're at it explain why it works for me. And please don't give me that, '... it's because I've forfeited my ability to think', crap. That's too pat an explanation and very one-dimensional.) Fact is, you have to believe that he's not for real because that's the only way you can justify it not working for you.

I'll tell you why it didn't work for you and it does for me... It's because you and I ask different questions of life; so why the hell would you think we'd be satisfied by the same answers? And Maharaji undeniably answered a very deep and personal question for me. There are mountain-tops you don't even know exist, so why don't you stop pretending you've seen them all just because you've been to the top of all the one's you know about?

By the way, my name IS Anonamous, with an 'A' (my mother used to get so pissed when people spelled it with a 'Y'). I sometimes go by Anonamo.

;o)
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Good to hear from you again, A. I wonder if you handle all differences of opinion this way. You answer your own questions and I'll answer mine? Pretty funny.

Anyways, ...well, I guess there's no talking with you, right? I was about to ask you why you're posting here and what interaction you'd accept from others. But that's one of my questions, isn't it? Maybe you could ask yourself, if you have a moment. What are you doing here?

Recently, Scott and I have been talking about this forum and whether 'no rules' is best. I've argued that that standard's too loose as, although you might not think so, this is in fact a DISCUSSION board. You've afforded such a perfect example of someone who's unwilling or, perhaps, unable to respect this simple idea, I'd forgive Scott if he does one of those trace things to see if 'you' are not me having a little fun. Scott, this isn't me. (Well, THIS is, but you know what I mean.)
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I appreciate your efforts to make this page snappy
and provide a target.

I finally recognize that m is a person who is burdened
with a long history and momentum in being a
professional messiah.
While everyone wants to rule the world, few get handed
a pedestal the way maharaji was.
I'll give him credit for being bold. But he did himself in
by not haveing a real experience and so he was left
with nothing to stand on except pretense and a
philosophy that evolved out of a few sources.
one was the writings of his father,
one was his own relationships of domination that he had
with his followers, and wife.
one was his own delusions of granduer that came about
because he didnt know what was real inside of him
and so since he didnt know himself in the real sense,
he, like all people before they know thier real self
inside are forced to come up with an identity and become
more or less a prisoner of that identity.
one last one is that he had no god for himself. And he
eventually settled on his dead father. And since his
father was a messiah,he was naturally flawed in gods
time honored way of flawed messiahs.

His only hope is that kabir is right that if you
wed yourself to your lifeforce happiness will be your slave.

There is one slot left in the Pantheon of Gods.

If you dont know, it is the fat god of Happiness that
people have in thier gardens all over the world.

If Maharaji can pull off genuine happiness, its going to
be hard to make a effective argument that --look he
REALLY was a shit before.

As pissed as I am at his endless shit, this is what he
said in december 96 alongside a pretty revealing admission of being
imprisoned for a long time by anger, fear,envy,darkness(sex),greed and something else.
What he said next was this:

When I am in that place within, I rest, I become me,
I become whole, I begin to be in awe of life.
My world becomes real and I begin to be in awe of
each breath I take within me.

Thats why I hesitate to write him off,Ive watched his
midlife crises and Im gonna see him in late june in nyc
to evaluate his evolution in person.

sorry you asked?
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"So knowledge didn't work for you guys."

As I mentioned before, but maybe it hasn't sunk in yet, I have never said "knowledge" didn't "work." What I said was that it was Maharaj Ji that didn't "work" for me, and apparently for a large number of other people, since he was, in fact, working for himself.

"I've read posts on this site giving negative spins to everything Maharaj Ji does from spending time with the people who love him to having a jet to travel to be with those people."

Well, who is "spinning" now? If that's what it's about, why the gold bathroom fixtures and computerized showers on the "jet" which, according to your "spin" is nothing more than a selfless and loving means of transportation? Also, it would be helpful if you could point to ONE, ONE, factual point made about GMJ on this page that you have factual evidence is incorrect. Part of freedom of speech is the fact that you have the right to do your own, opposite spinning and, if you can, provide opposing evidence, which, by the way, I haven't heard from you yet, except that you are happy with your experience. Again, if that's true, why do you care what we say or think?

"I'll tell you why it didn't work for you and it does for me...It's because you and I ask different questions of life..."

There you go with the "questioning" stuff again. I will overlook the fact that what GMJ purported to offer the world was "one-size-fits-all" and the answer to EVERY person's ultimate "question," or so he said, and just say again, that if you change your question to always fit the "answer" that GMJ is currently offering this season, well, he will always be the answer. That's what faith and cult programming are all about.
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:o)
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B. J.
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B. J.
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