Ex-Premie.Org

Forum II Archive # 1

From: Nov 15, 1997

To: Dec 9, 1997

Page: 5 Of: 5


Deena -:- Please read this -:- Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 09:49:51 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Please read this -:- Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 20:39:59 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: Please read this -:- Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 22:17:52 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Please read this -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 20:19:21 (EST)
___Annie -:- blah blah blah -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 21:45:18 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Please read this -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 10:15:17 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: blah blah blah -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 12:20:35 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: blah blah blah -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 14:44:46 (EST)

Anonomousie -:- HoneyMOON -:- Mon, Nov 24, 1997 at 17:48:26 (EST)

Deena -:- Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Sun, Nov 23, 1997 at 22:07:34 (EST)
___Ex-Mahatmaji -:- Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 10:19:27 (EST)
___Ex-Mahatmaji -:- Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 10:33:08 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 11:53:13 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 16:19:29 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 16:34:19 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 22:29:22 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 22:29:57 (EST)
___Ex-Mahatmaji -:- Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 05:09:43 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 06:07:51 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 07:33:20 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 08:33:06 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 09:27:25 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 11:32:36 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 12:16:52 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 12:31:02 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 13:07:57 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 00:20:46 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor -:- Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 03:12:45 (EST)
___DVD -:- Rancid Chink Chow, that tao -:- Fri, Nov 28, 1997 at 02:03:48 (EST)

Seymour -:- Technical Query -:- Sat, Nov 22, 1997 at 06:09:25 (EST)
___Semi-Bongo -:- Re: Technical Query -:- Sat, Nov 22, 1997 at 18:53:15 (EST)
___Semi-Bongo -:- Re: Technical Query -:- Sat, Nov 22, 1997 at 18:56:45 (EST)
___Seymour -:- Re: Technical Query -:- Sat, Nov 29, 1997 at 07:40:43 (EST)

JW -:- Kissing the Lord's Feet -:- Fri, Nov 21, 1997 at 15:58:24 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Kissing the Lord's Feet -:- Sat, Nov 22, 1997 at 23:17:16 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Kissing the Lord's Feet -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 16:52:50 (EST)

Deena -:- Devil's Advocate -:- Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 09:36:34 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Devil's Advocate -:- Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 09:51:07 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Devil's Advocate -:- Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 11:59:11 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Devil's Advocate -:- Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 12:06:54 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Devil's Advocate -:- Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 12:10:03 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Devil's Advocate -:- Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 12:19:54 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Devil's Advocate -:- Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 12:53:08 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Devil's Advocate -:- Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 14:03:59 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Devil's Advocate -:- Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 15:07:44 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Devil's Advocate -:- Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 17:41:54 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Devil's Advocate -:- Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 18:24:55 (EST)
___Chris -:- Re: Devil's Advocate -:- Fri, Nov 21, 1997 at 03:57:14 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Devil's Advocate -:- Fri, Nov 21, 1997 at 12:29:21 (EST)

Deena -:- Letter to Maharaji -:- Tues, Nov 18, 1997 at 10:32:52 (EST)
___Correction -:- Re: Letter to Maharaji -:- Tues, Nov 18, 1997 at 11:12:19 (EST)

JW -:- Premie.Com Has Disappeared!!!! -:- Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 15:48:28 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Premie.Com Has Disappeared!!!! -:- Mon, Nov 24, 1997 at 00:46:37 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: Premie.Com Has Disappeared!!!! -:- Mon, Nov 24, 1997 at 14:49:16 (EST)
___Ex-Mahatmaji -:- Re: Premie.Com Has Disappeared!!!! -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 10:16:28 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Premie.Com Has Disappeared!!!! -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 11:55:18 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Premie.Com Has Disappeared!!!! -:- Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 01:04:23 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Premie.Com Has Disappeared!!!! -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 15:57:21 (EST)
___Ex MahatmaJi -:- Re: Premie.Com Has Disappeared!!!! -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 04:39:10 (EST)
___Mr EX -:- Re: Let's revive Premie.com -:- Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 09:09:27 (EST)

Deena -:- Hello Everybody -:- Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 21:41:17 (EST)
___Seymour -:- Re: Hello Everybody -:- Sun, Nov 16, 1997 at 10:33:28 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Hello Everybody -:- Sun, Nov 16, 1997 at 16:22:28 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Hello Everybody -:- Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 00:17:12 (EST)
___Patrick -:- Re: Hello Everybody -:- Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 04:48:48 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Hello Everybody -:- Tues, Nov 18, 1997 at 14:02:00 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Hello Everybody -:- Mon, Nov 24, 1997 at 11:35:59 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Hello Everybody--to Patrick -:- Mon, Nov 24, 1997 at 11:39:06 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Hello Everybody--to CD -:- Mon, Nov 24, 1997 at 11:40:57 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Hello Everybody -:- Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 23:22:10 (EST)

Scott -:- Welcome to the New Forum II -:- Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 13:43:48 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Welcome to the New Forum II -:- Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 14:36:08 (EST)
___Semi-Bongo -:- Re: Welcome to the New Forum II -:- Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 22:49:20 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Welcome to the New Forum II -:- Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 23:10:59 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Welcome to the New Forum II -:- Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 13:59:31 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Welcome to the New Forum II -:- Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 15:22:11 (EST)
___opie -:- Re: Welcome to the New Forum II -:- Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 19:26:39 (EST)
___OP -:- Re: Welcome to the New Forum II -:- Tues, Nov 18, 1997 at 10:21:12 (EST)
___oops! -:- Re: Welcome to the New Forum II -:- Tues, Nov 18, 1997 at 10:34:53 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Welcome to the New Forum II -:- Tues, Nov 18, 1997 at 12:32:41 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Welcome to the New Forum II -:- Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 07:50:30 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Welcome to the New Forum II -:- Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 07:54:59 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Welcome to the New Forum II -:- Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 13:45:50 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: Welcome to the New Forum II -:- Sun, Nov 23, 1997 at 20:26:33 (EST)



Date: Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 09:49:51 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Please read this
Message:
Please read this; is for anyone who has doubts and may even have recently decided that being a premie or an aspirant is not for them. Nine months ago, on my own, without anyone elses influence, I come to the conclusion that I didn't want to be a devotee of Maharaji's any longer. This was after 23years of different levels of involvement. When I discovered this site I was very thankful that I had a place to share what was happening to me. After all I've been through, I really feel for anyone experiencing something similar. It isn't easy...especially if your feelings aren't validated. The purpose of this post is to share my e-mail address with anyone who feels they wish to communicate. I have never felt ready until now to take that step. Healing from involvement with Maharaji is the most difficult thing I've ever gone through in my 42 years. One of the things that kept me sane, was how ex-premies reached out to me, listened, as well as shared their own stories. I will always be grateful to all these people. Anyways, I'd like to add my name to list of those who leave their e-mail address with each post. I don't know why premies aren't posting here lately or very often at all anymore, and though they are welcome, it is a relief to be able to post without being judged.
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Date: Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 20:39:59 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Re: Please read this
Message:
Here is one of my favorite quotes from the book 'Captive Hearts, Captive Minds'... 'Some people believe that freedom of thought, the ability to choose one's attitude or feelings about anything, is the last of the human freedoms. For example, Viktor Frankl, a Holocaust survivor and renowned psychiatrist, believed that a person's freedom to choose a way of thinking and feeling was something even the Nazis couldn't take away. Unfortunately, for those living within today's thought-reform environments, that most basic freedom can be taken away.'
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Date: Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 22:17:52 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Anyone
Subject: Re: Please read this
Message:
Here is one of my favorite quotes from the book 'Captive Hearts, Captive Minds'... 'Some people believe that freedom of thought, the ability to choose one's attitude or feelings about anything, is the last of the human freedoms. For example, Viktor Frankl, a Holocaust survivor and renowned psychiatrist, believed that a person's freedom to choose a way of thinking and feeling was something even the Nazis couldn't take away. Unfortunately, for those living within today's thought-reform environments, that most basic freedom can be taken away.' I do agree with Frankl. I don't believe that freedom of thought and belief can be taken away. I believe that what happens is this: we grow up, in this society, at least, not knowing anything for ourselves. We are rarely encouraged to think for ourselves, make our own decisions or take responsibility for them. Rarely encouraged to feel -- and honor -- our own feelings, or to express them. Quite the opposite: from a young age, the majority of kids are programmed to suppress or doubt their feelings and perceptions. Kids are required to accept, learn, and live by the 'facts' as presented by parents, teachers, experts. Depending on the level and the nature of each person's programming, many find themselves as young adults, bewildered. Suddenly on one's own. Perhaps naturally, many reject the "facts" and values they've been taught; yet they have not developed the skill to find answers for themselves. It is easily understood why one looks for someone who will provide a formula: do this, or that, and everything will be all right. It may be found through a non-controversial religion, or it may be through a weird extreme cult. But it is the natural thing to do, in order to avoid fear -- when one does not know how to think for one's self, nor how to face uncertainty. Yet such a surrender of one's thinking is not involuntary. It is a quest for security, of one sort or another. I've never found the need to reject Maharaji or Knowledge; yet I have questioned, and gone through periods of doubt; I have stood back from the whole thing -- very far back -- and made effort to see Maharaji, and the premies, and Knowledge, and myself, objectively. Never was there a conflict for me about doing this; I felt that if Maharaji were a true teacher, and if Knowledge were real, it would withstand my scrutiny, and would in fact support my "finding myself." I am sure that it has been BECAUSE of Knowledge that I've been able to untangle so much of my own "programming" -- some from the early years as a premie -- but most from the twenty years of life before that. Maharaji's primary message to me has always been this: what I am looking for is within me. The answers are within me. Although there has been so much stuff surrounding Maharaji and the whole phenomenon over the years which has varied, and which has not made a whole lot of sense, it has not altered the essential, which has never changed, in 25 years. I cannot deny the power and value of that which I have been shown within myself. My love and respect for Maharaji has increased with time; strangely enough, I have found it has happened without thought or effort, as I gave myself permission to venture into uncertainty -- ie, to stand back, not holding on to an ashram, a community of premies, not even to Maharaji himself. Permission to be "me" -- not be afraid to doubt, to question -- but to take his message literally, and look within myself, trust myself.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 20:19:21 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Please read this
Message:
I do agree with Frankl. Yet such a surrender of one's thinking is not involuntary. It is a quest for security, of one sort or another. I've never found the need to reject Maharaji or Knowledge; yet I have questioned, and gone through periods of doubt; I have stood back from the whole thing -- very far back -- and made effort to see Maharaji, and the premies, and Knowledge, and myself, objectively. Never was there a conflict for me about doing this; I felt that if Maharaji were a true teacher, and if Knowledge were real, it would withstand my scrutiny, and would in fact support my 'finding myself.' I am sure that it has been BECAUSE of Knowledge that I've been able to untangle so much of my own 'programming' -- some from the early years as a premie -- but most from the twenty years of life before that. Maharaji's primary message to me has always been this: what I am looking for is within me. The answers are within me. Although there has been so much stuff surrounding Maharaji and the whole phenomenon over the years which has varied, and which has not made a whole lot of sense, it has not altered the essential, which has never changed, in 25 years. I cannot deny the power and value of that which I have been shown within myself. I recall reading Victor Frankls' book in high school. I think it was called "The Psychology of Meaning." The first half is the story of his living in a concentration camp and the second is his theory of "logotherapy" in which he said that you can assign meaning to anything. That it is your personal choice to do that and that choice can give you the willingness to life and a meaning to life. That's how, he said, he survived the holocaust. I do agree, that at some point, way back at the beginning, I DID make the voluntary choice to have faith in Maharaji. That was because my desire to believe what he was saying was true was greater than my own skepticism and rational thought processes. Once that was done, for me, the programming into the cult was incremental. I do not recall making any decisions, except to have total faith and trust in Maharaji. That was because he said that you really couldn't have the true and complete experience he offered, which he said was the ultimate truth, the purpose of your life, and what you had spent thousands of lifetimes looking for, unless you were devoted to him. AND he offered a way to be completely devoted to him. By meditating constantly, practicing satsang, service and meditation, constantly, and living in his ashram under vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. Yes, I CHOSE to believe him and follow his advice. But once I did that, it was a CLOSED system. If you truly did what he said, you didn't doubt ANYTHING that happened to you. He was TOTALLY in charge of your life. You trusted him completely and doubt was your mind, which he equated with the devil who was trying to prevent you from having the experience he was offering. And like Frankl said, I assigned meaning to all that happened as "perfect" because I chose to have complete and total faith in M, with every aspect of my life, including my personal freedom and objective thinking. From there, the total programming was just a matter of degree. Yes, I was programmed. Yes, I turned over myself completely to him. Yes, I had something to do with that at the beginning, but that was ENTIRELY because I loved and trusted him completely. All the negative consequences flowing from that have been described by various ex-premies, including myself, flowed from that. And I firmly believe that GMJ USED that sincereity, devotion, desire to know the truth, all the way to the bank. Now, I know it's not that simple. I think GMJ was to some degree deluded himself and wasn't entirely malicious. I mean I loved the guy, or at least I thought it was love. Now, I suppose I could throw all that stuff off and follow Maharaji kind of like a religion. I have my life; I go to programs; I do most of the stuff normal people do, and I just look at that "total dedication" period as just a phase or something (I guess that both he and I were going through.) But I can't do that. I can't overlook his behavior and abuses. Moreover, I have come to discover that the experience I have inside myself has nothing whatsoever to do with him. It is available lots of places if you want it. Places that do not abuse and use people for their own selfish ends. I enjoyed meditation and had some nice experiences doing it, and I think it has given me a perspective on life that I appreciate. But there are lots of people who do meditation and are not required to devote themselves to another human being. That's just sick. You know Annie, I appreciate that you think M has helped you in your life. Maybe he has. But I really think your standards are pretty low if that's all you expect. And helped you in relation to WHAT? What do you have to compare it to. Have you tried TM or est or lifespring, or being a moonie, or following your breath with no devotion to any other living being? Have you really tried that? Again, my experience is that a lot of people who consider themselves premies are involved in nostalgia, and maybe some wishful thinking. Given that they don't turn over their lives or their money any more, as I think most don't, it isn't a big deal. Maybe that's harmless, maybe not. But I still think M thinks he a diety worthy of being worshipped and that he won't even address people who have been hurt by him. I think that's pretty rotten and I wouldn't want to be associated with him, and I would like people who are considering getting involved with him to know that there is another side to the story and that there is lot they are not being told in those controlled aspirant programs. [Like darshan, devotion, M's past as lord of the universe, etc.] People could be doing something better with their time than following someone who is that screwed up.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 21:45:18 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: JW
Subject: blah blah blah (Re: Please read this)
Message:
Joe: your opinion of my standards, and my standards, are two different things. What I wrote in some earlier posts is this, if I may quote myself: "My day to day life is rich with feeling, and with love." "I tell you this: he has encouraged me to go inside. From that place within myself, clarity comes forth; and love, appreciation of my life, understanding, compassion, courage, joy." I like my standards. "Those who ascribe to Maharaji the motive of greed, are themselves believing that money will bring them clarity, happiness, self-love, self-respect, enjoyment of life, hope, security. This is my opinion." "Maharaji has taken away nothing from me, except the manifold crutches I used in place of my own two feet. I am free to speak or write about Knowledge; I am free to gather with my friends; I am free to choose how I will spend my moments and my days; I am free to practice Knowledge or not; to see videos or not; to see Maharaji or not. I am free to walk away." I've always been free to walk away, so I can't relate to everyone's sad stories of being victimized. I am weary of all this discussion, I'm not sure it's serving any purpose. May the great spirit, the nameless one, have mercy upon all of us, and find some humor in it all.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 10:15:17 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Brilliant, Absolutely Brilliant
Subject: Re: Please read this
Message:
I read what you wrote to Annie JW, and felt you managed to say it all in that post.Too bad it was blah blah to Annie. Imagine if each aspirant were to have a copy of some of these posts to read how it might enlighten them to the fact that they haven't been told everything past or to come. Imagine if they saw the early films of M on his throne wearing his crown screaming in his squeeky voice that he could save premies only if they dedicated themselves to him, it would ring some warning bells. I use to buy the story that he was a victim of the 'organization' or his family, that he couldn't say no to the love that the premies showed in all this stuff that he did then but denounces now. That he put up with alot back then. That now it's all under his direction and therefore it's not screwed up like in the early days. Yah, right. From what I witnessed in the past couple of years doing service, very little has changed in essence. It's just in a more palatable form now. No money in turning people off. Or if he is deluded, (which I agree he is) then he wants to accomplish his mission to bring Knowledge to the world and a hippie approach is out of date. I wonder if our world wide addresses on the net make him question his power as a deity? Anyways, bravo for the most concise post I've yet to read that just about says it all. Can I borrow it for my Journey? I could make a few changes here and there. Just kiddin :)
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 12:20:35 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: blah blah blah (Re: Please read this)
Message:
Annie, I think it's very interesting that you simply refuse to address any of the points that I sincerely, and with some effort, made to address the points you were raising, and, ulike you, I have never been so dismissive to describe your personal experiences has "blah, blah, blah." You are certainly free to disagree with me if you like, but you simply ignore what I'm saying and restate your subjective experience, which I have never disagreed with nor attempted to judge. By the way, I have never believed money would bring me clarity. And Maharaji's obvious material greed is the least of my problems with him. I know you think you are free to walk away from Maharaji, and that you apparently always were. I'm just saying that for many of us, for many years, that simply was not true. Sorry this discussion makes you "weary" and that you can't "relate" to it, and that it's not "serving any purpose." Annie, you are certainly free to walk away from THIS, discussion if you feel that way. Nothing is keeping you here, and from what I understand your lord has given agya for you not to do it. But please excuse me if I take exception to you dismissing my experience entirely without even bothering to discuss why you feel that way. Glad you're experience in the cult was so free and positive for you. But I think you should at least be open to the fact that many people didn't have such a great time. Joe
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 14:44:46 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: blah blah blah (Re: Please read this)
Message:
Joe: your opinion of my standards, and my standards, are two different things. What I wrote in some earlier posts is this, if I may quote myself: 'My day to day life is rich with feeling, and with love.' 'I tell you this: he has encouraged me to go inside. From that place within myself, clarity comes forth; and love, appreciation of my life, understanding, compassion, courage, joy.' I like my standards. 'Those who ascribe to Maharaji the motive of greed, are themselves believing that money will bring them clarity, happiness, self-love, self-respect, enjoyment of life, hope, security. This is my opinion.' 'Maharaji has taken away nothing from me, except the manifold crutches I used in place of my own two feet. I am free to speak or write about Knowledge; I am free to gather with my friends; I am free to choose how I will spend my moments and my days; I am free to practice Knowledge or not; to see videos or not; to see Maharaji or not. I am free to walk away.' I've always been free to walk away, so I can't relate to everyone's sad stories of being victimized. I am weary of all this discussion, I'm not sure it's serving any purpose. May the great spirit, the nameless one, have mercy upon all of us, and find some humor in it all. Of course this discussion is serving a purpose.If it served no purpose it would not be taking place.Judging by the heartfelt outpouring of feelings that often takes place here it seems to me that this forum is indeed serving an extremely valuable purpose,and is a great service to ex-premmies,bystanders,premmies,and even to Maharaji himself.How could people discussing their true thoughts and feelings not serve a purpose? Satsang,or the company of truth or whatever,doesn't just have to be about "THE BIG TRUTH" does it?Aren't genuinely held beliefs and feelings,and the discussion thereof true? This forum is probably one of the healthiest satsangs that has ever taken place. Just because you love and appreciate the bloom of the rose;does that mean you shouldn't discuss/acknowledge the thorns that you see?Thorns are part of the rose too.In fact ignoring the thorns couldn't possibly help in your overall appreciation of the bloom,could it? No,I just can't see how this forum does anything but serve a purpose. Why on earth would the creator have to "have mercy upon all of us,and find some humor in it all."? This implies that what is taking place here is somehow,or would somehow be displeasing to the creator.If this is indeed the case then this would mean that we've got a pretty dumb creator,because after all,it was the creator that endowed us with the very faculties that would lead to it's displeasure.
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Date: Mon, Nov 24, 1997 at 17:48:26 (EST)
Poster: Anonomousie
Email: Hot for Mili
To: forumba
Subject: HoneyMOON
Message:
Hello! I have good news, I am getting married to a nice jewish boy who is a channeler for a variety of entities. We are getting married at the 'wedding heard around the world' by Rev. Moon. I will post all the fun and also the honeymoon and tell the story of living with Jim Heller. He is not as saintly as you think! My computer is out so I will have to go to the library when I can. Forget your sincere search, sex and choclates are the reason we were created. The third part of the holy trinity is shopping! See you in the MOON light! Anonomousie
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Date: Sun, Nov 23, 1997 at 22:07:34 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
Wow....I just finally got 'round to reading the Confessions of an ex-Instructor and I am so grateful to the person who wrote it. I recommend that whoever hasn't read it yet, and is visiting this sitem that they should. Because I was involved as premie, public and aspirant contact person and doing back stage service, as well as housing instructors in the past few years, I could really relate to what was confessed. And the stuff on M's self destruction...well that is dead on. It's wonderful to have so many feelings validated. Thanks again to whoever for sharing.
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Date: Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 10:19:27 (EST)
Poster: Ex-Mahatmaji
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
I'm happy that you enjoyed my little story ....
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Date: Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 10:33:08 (EST)
Poster: Ex-Mahatmaji
Email:
To: Ex-Mahatmaji
Subject: Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
I'm sorry to keep anonymous for a while, but it's necessary in my present situation. Imagine whatever you want. I can still access to alot of valuable information (that don't interest me so much anymore). I go to videos and meetings from time to time : it's a pity to wath all these guys. They don't realize how much they suffer of all this BS. They think it's their "mind"! What they call 'mind' does not exist. It's a byproduct of their involvment in whatever you want to call it. Many of these guys are still friends, even though I don't loose time with them anymore. I just hope that they'll recover one day, be really happy and enjoy what real life is (not M's dream that's NEVER going to be fulfilled). ..................
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Date: Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 11:53:13 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Ex-Mahatmaji
Subject: Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
I can relate to keeping anonymous...sometimes I wish I hadn't burnt my bridges so I could access info too. I still protect my identity to protect my husband who is still involved and is hurt by my anti-Maharaji feelings. I don't know if he knows I still post here because I try to keep it discreet. Sometimes I worry that a thoughtless premie will share with him what I've written in the past on the old forum. That wouldn't be doing him any favors and it's really not anyones place to do that since if he wanted to he knows where the forum is. I enjoyed what you wrote because it is from a more recent perspective and because for the longest time I wanted to be an instructor. It seemed like the ultimate in devotion and love for M. Mind you, I always felt washing his floors or plane would be just as fulfilling! I just wanted to completely immerse myself in service because that is what life's purpose seemed to me to be. Serving the Master and practising Knowledge seemed to me to be the perfect expression of the love and gratitude I felt. I accepted that 'Mind' was what kept me from experiencing the 'Truth'. That duality was like an insanity that ate away at the fabric of my being...as I believe it does for all those involved, including Maharaji.
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Date: Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 16:19:29 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Ex-Mahatmaji
Subject: Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
> I go to videos and meetings from time to time : it's a pity to wath all these guys. They don't realize how much they suffer of all this BS. They think it's their 'mind'! > What they call 'mind' does not exist. It's a byproduct of their involvment in whatever you want to call it. Pity yourself. You are portraying only your limited view of what people experience. I see that you have the answer to the 1000s of years old question about the essence of 'mind' and 'soul'. Yes, I see. You and Jim Heller can write the definitive book on existance and the universe. CD
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Date: Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 16:34:19 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Ex-Mahatmaji
Subject: Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
> What they call 'mind' does not exist. It's a byproduct of their involvment in whatever you want to call it. Many of these guys are still friends, even though I don't loose time with them anymore. I just hope that they'll recover one day, be really happy and enjoy what real life is ------------------------------ By all means, just because they are friends don't lose time. You've got things to do. Yeah, I made a spelling error in my previous post. Pity me. Should have been: You and Jim Heller can write the definitive book on existence, the universe, mind and devil. Please educate us on the origins of the word 'universe'. And what is that Tao stuff anyways? Thanks, CD
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Date: Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 22:29:22 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Ex-Mahatmaji
Subject: Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
I'm sorry to keep anonymous for a while, but it's necessary in my present situation. Imagine whatever you want. I can still access to alot of valuable information (that don't interest me so much anymore).Of course you have a right to anonymity; of course anyone could write such a story about having been an instructor, as well, whether he or she had been an instructor or not. I do question the anonymity though. If you are not ashamed or afraid of what you have to say, why be unwilling to stand behind your words. I am not saying that you ARE cowardly, but it seems cowardly to not identify yourself; I think it also lends question to your veracity.
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Date: Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 22:29:57 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Ex-Mahatmaji
Subject: Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
I'm sorry to keep anonymous for a while, but it's necessary in my present situation. Imagine whatever you want. I can still access to alot of valuable information (that don't interest me so much anymore).Of course you have a right to anonymity; of course anyone could write such a story about having been an instructor, as well, whether he or she had been an instructor or not. I do question the anonymity though. If you are not ashamed or afraid of what you have to say, why be unwilling to stand behind your words. I am not saying that you ARE cowardly, but it seems cowardly to not identify yourself; I think it also lends question to your veracity.
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 05:09:43 (EST)
Poster: Ex-Mahatmaji
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
>>I'm sorry to keep anonymous for a while, but it's necessary >>in my present situation. Imagine whatever you want. I can still access to alot of valuable information (that don't >>interest me so much anymore). >Of course you have a right to anonymity; of course anyone could write such a story about having been an instructor, as >well, whether he or she had been an instructor or not. I do question the anonymity though. If you are not ashamed or >afraid of what you have to say, why be unwilling to stand behind your words. I am not saying that you ARE cowardly, >but it seems cowardly to not identify yourself; I think it also lends question to your veracity. I agree I’m a coward in some way. It’s true I don’t feel strong enough to face all theses crazy guys by myself. But I don’t feel being a coward towards myself : I did dare face my problems, and I dare discuss them with some of my premie friends (face to face), and my psychoanalyst. I’m not the one who’s going to prove that all this business is pure BS. My purpose is to show that it’s possible to say what many people know but only few dare to say. The fact is that some extremely interesting details have been received recently. As the general picture gets more detailed, more people can relate to it and connect it to their own experiences. Just read some of the recent posts. What you think afterwards is your own private business. This is what information is made for : it makes you think. Try to think straight. Connecting the information you get with those you already have makes you intelligent and wise. I don’t need to rely on anybody in that field. Not that many people are connected to the Internet. I printed copies of some of the most interesting pages of ex-premie.org and posts. It has been very useful for some premies ...... now ex-premies ! One of the suggestions I’ll make to Jim and David is to have all this as files to download from the site : main pages of the web-site, etc. Print some copies for your friends and see what happens ! Many people involved in EV question the whole thing (like many of the premies posting here I imagine), but don’t dare to make the final step for some reason. I understand that perfectly because it took me quite a while to do it too. I did disagree for years with most of the coordinators I have been working with. Same thing with instructors, many of the important decisions, etc. I also met lot of people who would agree with me, and disagree with M’s and EV’s policy. We kept our mouth shut, because it takes a lot to go one step further. Many responsibles, instructors and coordinators left. They think (and I completely agree with them) that they have lost enough time with this. I’m not shutting my mouth because I have a lot of friends still in the trap. I really love some of these guys, and what I’m doing is useful (at least for me) _ and already proved to be useful for some of them. I’m not questioning God, Truth, the Tao, whatever. What I am questioning is what M. does in the name of whatever he feels and experiences. 90% of the people who came to Knowledge left. There must be a good reason for that. This has been the trend since the 70s and is still what happens. More than 17,000 people received K. in 1997 (14,000 in 96) according to what M’s instructors say these days. About half of them are from India & Nepal, the rest in the West. 8,300 people registered to the coming Long Beach event : less than past year ! Look at the figures you might have . WHERE ARE ALL THESE GUYS ? Elan Vital’s finances are catastrophic. They made more loans than ever to cover expenses in 1997. They will NEVER recover. M’s plans for 1998 are absolutely crazy as usual. Premies are delighted ! I’m afraid for many of these poor guys who are going to suffer of their guilt feelings. I personally know quite a lot of them. Regarding the veracity (voracity) of what I say : just check what you think are the most doubtful information I gave with someone really involved in EV’s organization and having been instructor/ initiator. Check his/her reactions ! He/she will of course say that I’m in my mind ! What they call ‘mind’ does not exist. The devil does not exist : it’s just the manifestation of your fears. FEAR DOES EXIST. Why we have fears is a relevant question. Questioning this can take you very far. I don’t think anything I mentioned can be denied. Hundreds of copies of the instructors manuals are owned by ex-instructors. Make friend with one of them and check. You might find some misspelling because of the scanning and word processing, that’s all. There are some minor mistakes here and there in the information, but David is quite busy building the site, and they will be corrected later. I’m very glad of what is happening here. I’m very glad that Maharaji is furious about all this : he got copies and complains, his children are on the Internet too like many children. This is really fun. Some security guys are very likely extremely busy trying to find out what could be done about this mess. They will pay thousands of $ to lawyers, experts etc. This is not the end of their problems. A lot more is going to come. The more furious he will be, the more happy I’ll be (I should talk about this with my psychoanalyst next time). Being furious is very healthy anyway, ask any professional psychotherapist/psychologist. I’m enjoying all this. Life is to be enjoyed : even premies agree. We might not speak about the same thing ..... There is no arm in thinking and questioning anything. It is the most sane attitude. Take care of yourself.
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 06:07:51 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Ex-Mahatmaji
Subject: Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
No offense, but I suspect you are one of Jim's alternate identities.
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 07:33:20 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
No offense, but I suspect you are one of Jim's alternate identities. Now, Annie... you either believe this person is lying or not. Either say it, or stop posting. "No offense, but..."? This is pure premie gibberish. I have to wonder how Jim became the Great Satan, when that position used to belong to the mind of premies struggling to devote themselves entirely to MJ's latest whim. Speak out, Annie. But first think things through on your own. Is MJ the Lord Of The Universe, or not? Was he once? Who's going to inherit the clown suit when he passes into the Great Beyond? His kids? Which one? BTW, you're way ahead of most premies on the road to reality by even daring to read these posts, let alone responding to them. MJ prefers that you stick to his self-serving videos. P.S. I'm not Jim, either. Nor am I really MJ, slumming among the ex-faithful.
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 08:33:06 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
I don't believe this or that about the person! I wrote precisely what I meant. There is a tendency among many here to read much too much into things, as if on an ignoble quest for flaws. You undermine your own cause.
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 09:27:25 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
Not true. You clearly expressed the view that it is cowardly of the ex-instruc to hide his identity. I say we imagine a bit here, let's say the anon ex is telling everything straight. Can you for one moment think about what some of the premies you've seen in your time might do to him because of their disbelief. It's not hard for me to imagine. Threats could lead to harm. I know I would be concerned about that. I'm not insinuating that M would order anything violent...I'm saying that their are alot of zealous premies that might take things into their own hands. Annie, my husband has feelings similar to yours, so I understand a bit about what you're saying. But part of the thought reform process is suppressing doubts...M may say to question and think about what he says (public and aspirant event) but when he stands up and holds his hands palms toward you uttering 'Blessings to all the premies' he is speaking the language of the master and the devotee. And at this level he constantly reminds premies that there is no room for doubt. Why, is there doubt about something that is supposedly the 'Truth' in the first place? When I participated in numerous fund raising phone feeds and one organizer meeting to raise money for the Challenger, I got to see the workings of M's finances. In the past I always took the party line that it was the 'organization' that was to blame for all the craziness of the early years. But for many years now we were told repeatedly that M was in complete control of every movement made. In other words it all came straight from the horses mouth. (what a stupid expression eh?) Anyways, it took a while but it became undeniable to me what M was doing. I trust my husband is capable of seeing what M is really about. I'm glad when he takes opprotunities to do service because I know that is the best way to find out what's really going on. Blinders are worn to protect. But when they are no longer needed it is a good day.
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 11:32:36 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
Deena, I am not sure to what you refer when you say "not true." I do stand behind what I wrote earlier, which is that it SEEMS cowardly to me, if in fact the person is a former instructor, to not be willing to identify him or herself. It has crossed my mind as well that there might be a crazy person who would want to clobber me for my point of view -- if anybody out there is thinking about doing that, please don't, and thanks very much -- however I don't think mahatmaji is at any more risk than the other outspoken "expremies" here, many of whom I believe are using their real names. If this person is in fact a real person and a former instructor, it would likely lend more strength to the story if he/she were not so shy about his/her identity. Anyone who fervently believes in the cause of denouncing Maharaji might write posts under a zillion different names here, and invent all sorts of creative tales, lists, facts, histories, etc. Who is going to verify, or question? There is nothing in the mahatmaji's story or posts, or in the instructor handbook or the aspirant process exposé, that could not just as well have been written by any old cranky person. I am neither drawing conclusions nor making accusations. My comment regarding Jim's alternate identity is not without humor; I used to live with him and he's a character. I like to speculate, theorize, unravel mysteries. It is only a hobby; but I always begin with the foundation of "anything is possible" and that's generally where I end up as well. Mostly, I find it hard to understand that those who have had a genuine experience of Knowledge would choose to deny it. I've observed within myself, and I think I have seen much evidence of this in others, that practicing Knowledge eventually brings a person to question and reject all that is not real within one's self. That alone, to me, is evidence of its strange and wonderful value. That Maharaji, as master, would so confound his students that ultimately they are left with only themselves, their own experience, and their own personal relationship with Life... and that's how I see it... if the point is to know God/truth -- for ourselves, without any middlemen -- I think it's a very successful master and a successful Knowledge... because it's increasingly clear to me that there is nothing, absolutely nothing, outside of myself, that I can look to for answers, or depend upon. Even my own "mind" is inconstant; I have never found it to be evil, though it's seemed pretty bizarre at times.
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 12:16:52 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
It seems ironic to call anyone who has the courage to leave Maharaji a coward. I for one hope ex-instruc remains anon until such day we can all appear on Larry King Live...just kiddin :) But seriously, how is he to keep us current if he is black listed from information? His credability is not questionable by anyone who has been seriously involved with service to M in the recent past. I was instructed on how to prepare the aspirants and the halls...I worked with them. I was given many pats on the back by higher ups as to how I did as M wanted things done. How other premie's confused aspirants and public with their misguided efforts. I did not pride myself in this. I merely made more effort to do what M wanted. All communication I received was directly from his instruction. No interpretation, that was a definate no-no. The ex-instruc has been frank, open and honest. And so have you Annie. Just like my husband. Please don't question the ex whatevers on these pages experience of knowledge. That would be condesending of you to judge their sincerity or depth of experience. I for one have filled the now archives with volumes of genuine feelings. So have many others, especially in the Journeys, which I hope to write too someday.
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 12:31:02 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
Deena, "please do not question?" also: I make a distinction between calling someone a coward, and expressing that a particular action or non action seems cowardly. Maybe it is too fine a line but it is a very distinct difference, in intent.
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 13:07:57 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
Ah...you got me...yes then, question with untiring scrutiny...but then do the same with Maharaji. My point was that ex-premies or ex-instructors alike, pour their hearts out here and their sincerety isn't questionable...why would anyone create such an elaborate deceit unless for personal gain; like money, power and/or love? Sound familiar? None of that exits here. This is a sanctuary for some of us and an opportunity to help others who may feel very alone in their doubts. Compassion dictates that if there are people who need to share or at least read what is shared, and if by doing that their lives are saved, (yes, some people feel like killing themselves when they leave M, some have), than something worthwhile has taken place here. That is what I am defending on these pages. And though your intent, as you put it, is admittedly a fine line...I still feel that impling cowardice is missing the whole point. You don't address the obvious which is that by remaining anon he continues to supply us with current info from an insiders vantage point. Something you and I can not do. Relax Annie, if I didn't know better I'd swear I was communicating with op. I'm not out to get you. I just crave clarification and when I see something out of whack I can't help but respond. Maharaji has been recorded for 30 years and in many instances he belittles, mocks and makes fun of human emotions. When premies do the same it is even more proof of how thought reform works. That is what was referred to in that reference to Frankl. The Nazi war camps were not interested in what the prisoners thought. How their bodies responded to torture, the elements, starvation etc. yes. Maharaji, on the other hand, is extremelly interested in the premies who think of nothing else but their master...even with their dying breath, as he so fondly reminds premies. Try conceiving of being able to remember M with your dying breath and you know as well as I do that in order to achieve that you would have to be conscious of him all the time. Mira and Kabir (whom I am very familiar with) were devotees M quotes confindently. Why? I know you know. It's like a premie secret. The love. The devotion. The ultimate goal of merging with the master.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 00:20:46 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
Anyone who fervently believes in the cause of denouncing Maharaji might write posts under a zillion different names here, and invent all sorts of creative tales, lists, facts, histories, etc. Who is going to verify, or question? "Might", perhaps. But there are many people who have posted their stories and provided identities that can be verified by anyone truly questioning. So are you verifying them? My comment regarding Jim's alternate identity is not without humor; I used to live with him and he's a character. Sorry about that part. It wasn't clear that you were kidding, and I took it as written. Mostly, I find it hard to understand that those who have had a genuine experience of Knowledge would choose to deny it. I've observed within myself, and I think I have seen much evidence of this in others, that practicing Knowledge eventually brings a person to question and reject all that is not real within one's self. That alone, to me, is evidence of its strange and wonderful value. That Maharaji, as master, would so confound his students that ultimately they are left with only themselves, their own experience, and their own personal relationship with Life... and that's how I see it... if the point is to know God/truth -- for ourselves, without any middlemen -- I think it's a very successful master and a successful Knowledge... because it's increasingly clear to me that there is nothing, absolutely nothing, outside of myself, that I can look to for answers, or depend upon. Even my own 'mind' is inconstant; I have never found it to be evil, though it's seemed pretty bizarre at times. I've seen a lot of posts blasting the value of knowledge/meditation, and I step around that subject since it's a subjective judgement to be made by each person. MJ, on the other hand, is a living person who profits from people identifying him with what they experience internally. In that he is a fraud. Not only because the connection is forced, but because he witholds the "valuable gift" until the connection is solidified in the minds of aspirants. Premies take the view that he is "THE" perfect master, and that some great unseen essence passed to him from his dead father that allows only him to make the determination of who gets "his" gift. That is preposterous. Who's gonna be the next perfect master, Annie? Do you see the same sort of infighting and bickering accompanying the passing of the crown that MJ's family went through? Possibly more court fights? At one point you have to say that he's just a plain old vanilla human being, and has no right to any patent on any meditation technique. Ex-Lord Of The Universe, or not.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 03:12:45 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor
Message:
Brian -- first I want to say that I don't feel a need to verify anyone's posts. I don't know if you will believe me, but I genuinely respect that what others are experiencing -- regardless of their beliefs -- is valid, for them. Where any of us will end up, or what any of us will end up believing, I have no idea. I recognize it is possible that one day I will discover I am 100% deluded. I don't feel afraid of such a possibility -- for if what is true for me now should one day prove false, then there will be a greater truth in its place. I have enough faith in my own sincerety and in the kindness of Life, that I believe I will recognize it, if such a time ever comes. The way I perceive my life right now, such a shift doesn't appear likely -- but I no longer draw conclusions, or assume anything about the future -- or think I KNOW anything more than what I feel right now -- what is real for me, right now. Period. I can't judge or debate others' opinions of Maharaji. I guess it is everyone's own business. People who believe he is harmful, and who sincerely want to help others... what can I say about that? My experience is so different from theirs -- but what can I say to them, or you, or anyone? Nothing! it seems silly to try and get someone else to believe what I believe. Each of us has to figure it out for ourselves. Maybe we find various support groups along the way, but ultimately we have to figure it out all by ourselves. Actually -- I said I don't draw conclusions -- but that's my conclusion, right there. Each of us can only realize for ourselves, what is the truth. And honestly -- I don't even know if *The Truth* is even the same *Truth* for everybody! I only know at this point, what is my own. Of course I have tons of theories and opinions, but that's all they are -- MY theories, MY opinions. So what? My day to day life is rich with feeling, and with love. It's not smooth, it's not easy, but it is rich, it is full. Colorful, challenging, fascinating. I love and respect Maharaji as my teacher, mentor; as the most profound influence in my life so far. The questions you pose about his successor? I have no idea, none, I don't think I even care, I don't think about it, ever. It's not relevant to me! I have often imagined if he were to disappear, or if I were to lose interest in him, or decide against him as many have... still I would have myself. That's what I've gotten out of this. Me! Somebody I love. Me.
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Date: Fri, Nov 28, 1997 at 02:03:48 (EST)
Poster: DVD
Email: drop the -opher
To: CD
Subject: Rancid Chink Chow, that tao (Re: Confessions of an ex-Instructor)
Message:
> What they call 'mind' does not exist. It's a byproduct of their involvment in whatever you want to call it. Many of these guys are still friends, even though I don't loose time with them anymore. I just hope that they'll recover one day, be really happy and enjoy what real life is ------------------------------ By all means, just because they are friends don't lose time. You've got things to do. Yeah, I made a spelling error in my previous post. Pity me. Should have been: You and Jim Heller can write the definitive book on existence, the universe, mind and devil. Please educate us on the origins of the word 'universe'. And what is that Tao stuff anyways? Thanks, CD Christ opher, I like you dear boy, but what are you doing holding up the tao writings as something worthwhile? If you would like a headache, please read ALL the alleged poetry by lout zue. The tao te ching is just god awful. It is responsible for all the following zen and other groups insane and useless babble. God did us no favor by having that guy and his words effect so many people. YOU yourself can easily come up with a poem that is of vastly more use and accuracy than that guy. Why don't you just type 8 sentences spontaniously like they will be read for centuries. I know you will do a good job even in a rush. And I am sure they will be much clearer than tao boy.
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Date: Sat, Nov 22, 1997 at 06:09:25 (EST)
Poster: Seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail
To: Everyone
Subject: Technical Query
Message:
Can anyone tell me how to download all the messages on the forum - as I do with my newsreader so that I can read them offline? My phone bills are mounting up. Cheeers Seymour
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Date: Sat, Nov 22, 1997 at 18:53:15 (EST)
Poster: Semi-Bongo
Email:
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Technical Query
Message:
Can anyone tell me how to download all the messages on the forum - as I do with my newsreader so that I can read them offline? My phone bills are mounting up. Cheeers Seymour Sorry old chap, can't be done as far as I know until Scott very kindly archives it. Then, if it's done like forum one, I'd advise you to download the archive without first opening it into your browswer. With IE3 you use File/Save As File and it all works a lot faster. Don't know about Netscape, though. Best of luck.
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Date: Sat, Nov 22, 1997 at 18:56:45 (EST)
Poster: Semi-Bongo
Email:
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Technical Query
Message:
Sorry I've boobed there. To download without opening use the right mouse button on the link to the archive and select the option to save the target.
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Date: Sat, Nov 29, 1997 at 07:40:43 (EST)
Poster: Seymour
Email:
To: Semi-Bongo
Subject: Re: Technical Query
Message:
Thanks for the help.
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Date: Fri, Nov 21, 1997 at 15:58:24 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Kissing the Lord's Feet
Message:
Am I the only one who sees any significance in the fact that Guru Maharaj Ji has started to give darshan again in the west? I assume he really did give darshan to the premies at the program in Australia, because not even one premie has come forward to deny it in any way. I personally think it's a troubling development that indicates that Guru Maharaj Ji still considers himself a diety worthy of being worshipped, further that he needed to have thousands of people kiss is feet to reinforce his own doubts about that in his own mind, and that he needs (or wants) more money, and darshan lines bring in lots of money. So, I think that the "things-have-changed" and "things-aren't-as-cultish-as-in-the-past" rationalizations I have heard from current premies is a lot of nonsense and nothing more that Elan Vital propoganda. I would be interested in Deena's impression of this as well, as her involvement with Maharaj Ji has been so recent. How was darshan discussed or viewed in the past few years? I would be interested in OP's opinion as well, but as far as I'm concerned she has lost most of her credibility on this issue unless she is absolutely shocked that GMJ did it, in direct contradiction to everything she was saying about darshan previously. [That he didn't do it anymore in the west and that it was just a cultural misunderstanding that premies had about it in the first place.]
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Date: Sat, Nov 22, 1997 at 23:17:16 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Kissing the Lord's Feet
Message:
Well, from my point of view of being involved until only 9 months ago I never got the sense that OP did, that darshan was in the past and India. I definately got the impression that it was hinted at (the 'ol teaser he likes to pull to increase the longing). And I always heard that people knew if they wanted to experience darshan that there were countries (besides India) where there were opprotunities in the years past. The money thing isn't likely to be the thing, that whole offering thingee. as was done in the past. The longing for darshan keeps premies right where M wants them...great way to have control so they hang on every movement and word. The darshans in India that some people I know attended were different than the old days in there simplicity. Same but different. But I use to go on about how nothing has changed in it's essence from the past so why there is any surprise...well when I was a premie it was always a possibility just like M dancing in public again was after years of not...of course the simplicity again in it not being an all nighter wearing costumes and his crown etc. But dancing none the less...I don't know why this is a surprise for you JW...I quess I missed alot of the rationalization about how things have changed. The whole way it works for M is full of opprotunities for M to sit and have his premies worship as they stare memsmorized by the devotional music. And the endless videos of him walking, smiling etc...all idol worship. The most obvious way that a person can see that M is the leader of a cult is that it tries to change by name (Divine Light registered to Elan Vital) and change the names of the techniques and language used as well. Then westernize the whole eastern slant but keep it in tact so it never really changes completely. Premies forget the quiet years where every waited for direction on what to say or not say, as it came down the pipeline from M himself. M wants this. doesn't want that...on and on until finally it gelled into the all new and improved - not Guru Maharaj Ji but Maharaji... For your grandmother going to see M at a public event is so palatable, acceptable. But my biggest objection to the whole public and aspirant process was always that if a new person were to be introduced to the whole thing with him dancing etc...well how many people now a days (not being the 70's) would be interested? But I know that I've said all this before probably and JW is saying that kissing of feet was explained on these pages as if this was proof that it wasn't a cult because that just wasn't happening anymore and nor was it going to happen in the west...well some new folks did experience it recently....
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 16:52:50 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Kissing the Lord's Feet
Message:
I don't know why this is a surprise for you JW...I quess I missed alot of the rationalization about how things have changed. The whole way it works for M is full of opprotunities for M to sit and have his premies worship as they stare memsmorized by the devotional music. And the endless videos of him walking, smiling etc...all idol worship. But I know that I've said all this before probably and JW is saying that kissing of feet was explained on these pages as if this was proof that it wasn't a cult because that just wasn't happening anymore and nor was it going to happen in the west...well some new folks did experience it recently.... Hi Deena. The reason I was surprised that M gave darsshan in Australia in September was because OP had gone on at great length to explain that if someone had received knowledge after about 1985 in the west, they wouldn't even know what darshan was, and that it was only given sometimes in India, where there was a different cultural understanding and that darshan was not relatable in the west and so was abolished. Obviously, OP was just proven very wrong. I was also surprised because from a PR point of view, I think darshan is a big looser for M. I know it will be carefully hidden from aspirants that thousands of people line up to kiss his feet, even if on an irregular basis, but I believe strongly that any sensible person who is informed of that will look at him much differently than how he is currently being sold. If I know his followers kiss his feet, and that he allows and promotes it, it is clear to me and anyone else with half a brain that he considers himself a diety worthy of being worshipped, and that worshipping him is a big part of what he is about. He doesn't let premies give satsang anymore, I think, because they would talk about that stuff, including darshan, devotion, surrender, longing, lotus feet,loving and total dedication, and he can't handle that, even though that's really what he is about. It is a real dilemma for him. So, if the fact that he just had thousands of people in Australia kiss is feet gets out, which it will, people are going to find out and be turned off from him. I think it's a serious problem for him, and just from a PR perspective, a big blunder. On the other hand, as I mentioned before, I think he did it to reinforce doubts he has in his own deluded mind about who or what he is. Having your feet kissed would have a tendency to reinforce your ego just a tad. Joe
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Date: Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 09:36:34 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Devil's Advocate
Message:
Last night I saw a movie that had a scene in it that really fascinated me. It is rare, that other than on these pages, one will see the word 'Bliss' used. Interestingly enough it was offered as THE ultimate gift by satan. 'Bliss on tap, anytime'. Now, don't get me wrong here. If you were to label me at this point in my existence, atheist would be the closest word to describe my lack of belief system. But I'm not that comfortable with labels anylonger, even ex-premie seems too limiting. By I'm losing my thread here. Back to the movie...some brilliant script about life and love. 'Self love being the most powerful natural opiate'. 'Relationship love being highly overrated...the same results achieved by eating a large quantity of chocolate'. All this wisdom coming from the so-called fallen son of god, satan. Put in the symbolic frame of reference or metaphorical one that it was meant to be, it is alot like satsang. Granted, sex and alcohol aren't the tools of the perfect master...ooops! Entertaining flick, but especially for those of us who get a kick out the fact that 'master of the universe' in this case happens to be the element all through history and time, that is blamed for man's madness. Ironic, bliss, the temptation of darkness but toted as the ultimate goal...who would have quessed. Don't misunderstand me now. I'm not discounted the value of a sense of peace, contentment or fulfilment in my life...that coupled with a sense of awe and wonderment makes it all worthwhile. I'm just fascinated that altered states or cosmic consciousness has a dark side. I know my experience has been that mystical experience is addictive and because of it's detached nature can, but doesn't always of course, in extreme cases lead to the rationalization necessesary for suicide, disowning of family or friends,manipulation physically, mentally and sexually and at the least, loss of critical thinking. But more on this another time.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 09:51:07 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Devil's Advocate
Message:
Addiction to spiritual experience is a well-recognized phenomena that is regarded as obstacle in many or most of the world's spiritual traditions. Addiction to spiritual highs is not the same as enlightenment. Satchitanand, that oft-repeated Sanscrit word is from the Hindu tradition. As with so many of the Hindu concepts borrowed by premies of Balyogeshwar, the original meaning suffers with translation.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 11:59:11 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Devil's Advocate
Message:
Yes, okay, then enlighten me as to what enlightenment is? And what is the correct translation. M always uses truth plus consciousness equals bliss,in the past and to this day. Did something I say just seem unenlightened (because I am humble enough to realize that despite years of believeing that I had secret knowledge of ancient origin that in fact I know very little) or did I offend you in some way. I was not intending to deny the deep spiritual, and I may say, personal mystical experiences that I had, but on a more sober note, the like of which can be induced in G-Force. experiments. And if spiritual highs are not the way to go in these practices you quote (curious which ones as all I studied value the satori or mystical avalange quality of revelation). I'd love a list to explore. By the way, did you see the movie?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 12:06:54 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Devil's Advocate
Message:
Addiction to spiritual experience is a well-recognized phenomena that is regarded as obstacle in many or most of the world's spiritual traditions. Addiction to spiritual highs is not the same as enlightenment. Satchitanand, that oft-repeated Sanscrit word is from the Hindu tradition. As with so many of the Hindu concepts borrowed by premies of Balyogeshwar, the original meaning suffers with translation. Hi Bobby! Please give me a list to explore of the spiritual traditions that do not hold sacred the avalange of realization that is often referred to as satori, mystical or bliss. Also, please give the proper translation since the so-called perfect master has used truth plus consciousness equals bliss on a regular basis even to this day and he too is a stickler for translation. So, did ya see the movie?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 12:10:03 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Devil's Advocate
Message:
Ooooh, this IS spooky...I've tried to write a few replies to you Bobby and they keep disappearing...I'll try another time if they don't magically appear again.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 12:19:54 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Bobbie
Subject: Re: Devil's Advocate
Message:
Last night I saw a movie that had a scene in it that really fascinated me. It is rare, that other than on these pages, one will see the word 'Bliss' used. Interestingly enough it was offered as THE ultimate gift by satan. 'Bliss on tap, anytime'. Now, don't get me wrong here. If you were to label me at this point in my existence, atheist would be the closest word to describe my lack of belief system. But I'm not that comfortable with labels anylonger, even ex-premie seems too limiting. By I'm losing my thread here. Back to the movie...some brilliant script about life and love. 'Self love being the most powerful natural opiate'. 'Relationship love being highly overrated...the same results achieved by eating a large quantity of chocolate'. All this wisdom coming from the so-called fallen son of god, satan. Put in the symbolic frame of reference or metaphorical one that it was meant to be, it is alot like satsang. Granted, sex and alcohol aren't the tools of the perfect master...ooops! Entertaining flick, but especially for those of us who get a kick out the fact that 'master of the universe' in this case happens to be the element all through history and time, that is blamed for man's madness. Ironic, bliss, the temptation of darkness but toted as the ultimate goal...who would have quessed. Don't misunderstand me now. I'm not discounted the value of a sense of peace, contentment or fulfilment in my life...that coupled with a sense of awe and wonderment makes it all worthwhile. I'm just fascinated that altered states or cosmic consciousness has a dark side. I know my experience has been that mystical experience is addictive and because of it's detached nature can, but doesn't always of course, in extreme cases lead to the rationalization necessesary for suicide, disowning of family or friends,manipulation physically, mentally and sexually and at the least, loss of critical thinking. But more on this another time. I'll try this one more time...I keep losing my posts? Hi Bobby! Did you see the movie? What is enlightment? What is the proper translation of the oft used quote of M - truth + consciousness = bliss ? Can you list the traditions that don't aspire to an avalange of realization commonly referred to by some, as mystical, satori or bliss?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 12:53:08 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Devil's Advocate
Message:
By "addiction to spiritual experience" I mean the craving of the experience of "bliss" in and of itself. I am one who have been addicted to far out states of awareness. I have experienced these and have wanted to return. I remember reading Ram Dass' *Be Here Now* where he quotes from some text or another about not hanging out with the beautiful flowers, the beautiful appearances as they are. We must move along the path and not get distracted with experiences of bliss. Good and bad, pleasure and pain are judgments and qualities of experience and not real objects per se. Along the spiritual path we may indeed get blissful experience. But the bliss is not the thing. Christian Mysticism speaks of the "dark night of the soul" as a common stage of the path. Buddhists seek the experience that is beyond all opposites - the "wisdom of the farther shore". Worlds of heaven and bliss are temporary places in Buddhism. One must come down. The Buddhist word "nirvana" literally means "no wind". Enlightenment here means the place that exists beyond the "winds of karma", the seemingly eternal cycles of cause and effect. Buddhists see all aware beings as being in one or other of six "realms", the heavens and hells. The awareness of enlightenment is ungraspable and is in effect unpossessable. Buddhists say this supreme awareness is essentially who we are. It is the clouds of our unawareness that get in the way of experiencing this presence. The nature of this awareness is bliss, but one cannot be "addicted" to it. Hindu's say "tat tvam asi". Thou art that. We already are that awareness, we just don't see it. Sat-chit-anand seems to be a similar phrase. Truth-consciousness-bliss. The nature of the truth awareness is bliss. "The phenomena of life may be likened unto a dream, a phantasm, a bubble, a shadow, the glistening dew, or lightning flash, and thus they ought to be contemplated." Prajna-Paramita (Diamond Sutra)
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Date: Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 14:03:59 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Devil's Advocate
Message:
Did you see the movie? No. What is enlightment? I don't know really. I don't know if there is an absolute. I think there are several books that address that very question. Some Tibetan Buddhists speak of true enlightenment as a very rare state. The number of enlightened beings are the number of visible stars in the morning sky out of the infinite numbers of stars that exist. I don't know anyone who is enlightened. Over the years I've been fascinated with those who are said to be enlightened. Some may be. I don't know. Enlightenment is elusive. If you say you are, you are not. Maybe. I haven't seen any final answers. What is the proper translation of the oft used quote of M - truth + consciousness = bliss ? I think the right translation is something like truth-consciousness-bliss as in them being elements and qualities of the same essential oneness. However, the sense I get is not in the ways I've seen Maharaji and premies throw it around, as in "I'm blissed out", means the knowledge is working. That's not the same as enlightenment in my opinion. I'm no authority, just fairly well-read and have been very interested in what all sorts of people have had to say about spirituality. My interest has led me to readings in several of the original Buddhist and Hindi sources and several sources written about these traditions. Can you list the traditions that don't aspire to an avalange of realization commonly referred to by some, as mystical, satori or bliss? I didn't mean to imply that states of mystical experience, satori or bliss were not spiritual per se. Spiritual experiences may have these qualities but they are not the same as actual enlightenment. Regards, Bobby
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Date: Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 15:07:44 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Devil's Advocate
Message:
Thanks Bobby. Reminds me of a Buddhist saying...'If you meet your master on the road, kill him '... I appreciate all you've shared. Deena
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Date: Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 17:41:54 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Devil's Advocate
Message:
Can you list the traditions that don't aspire to an avalange of realization commonly referred to by some, as mystical, satori or bliss? Hi Deena - I'm going to give this one a try. I am loosely quoting from a book (that Bobby recommended to me, by the way) called "A Path With Heart" by Jack Kornfield. He says that certain spiritual traditions (which he calls "transcendent" speak of the need to attain profoundly altered states of being to experience enlightenment (Rinzai Zen, Raja and Kundalini yoga, intensive Christian prayer, and so forth), but that other spiritual paths (which he calls "immanent" do NOT seek to transcend, but attempt to find "enlightenment" in the here and now. He lists the Soto school of Zen, the teachings of Krishnamurti, and karma yoga as some of these "immanent" paths. I'm sure Bobby could add to this list, as I'm not very familiar with most of these spiritual traditions! By the way, the book is pretty good, and not TOO spiritual. You might like to read it, although you might not agree with everything the author says. There is a great section on problems with teachers called "The Emperor's New Clothes" The author sees all spiritual teachers as people rather than divinities, however!
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Date: Thurs, Nov 20, 1997 at 18:24:55 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Everybody
Subject: Re: Devil's Advocate
Message:
Soto school of zen eh? I studied zen a bit years ago...actually the quote I gave about killing the master is based on early zen because at the beginning the teacher served a temporary purpose and then it was expected that you would ditch him. Following, worshiping etc. no matter how incredable the master was not the way to go. The part I find the most interesting is that isn't it possibile that a person with no so-called spiritual leanings or religious beliefs may very well be experiencing the 'oneness truth' and not know it as enlightment but definately be totally conscious of the here and now, reap the benifets of the side effects of that experience as inner peace and contentment as well as a healthy dose of awe and wonderment...but given this, is that person enlightened really? What scale of measurement could ever judge that, as Bobby said. It would seem impossible. And as far as past masters thru the ages...who knows which ones were like M or not..all we have to go on is the disciples and their different accounts. Present day teachers are easier to judge I quess. Inspiration and faith have come from all the great accounts (scriptures) but even Buddha who I once admired without question has a shady chapter in his path as teacher. The book the Guru Papers talks about it. I find it interesting that here and now can have a spiritual doctrine or school of any kind because it's immediately a contratiction or duality that is created. You can't do anything to do nothing. You can't read anything do be. You can't experience the here and now by any form because by giving form it becomes stagnant in it's objective which is to experience the here and now. Is that confusing? I can't put it in words for myself here. Insight, revelation and clarity comes sometimes in small simple moments and other times it cascades in an avalange of seeming mystical proportions...but to be aware of being aware seems like it cancels the other. So in the end by following a prescribed path of any kind, as inspiring and uplifting the reading and practise of ritual can be can only lead ultimately to a duality of being conscious and not. And if, as Bobby and Katie pointed out, it is impossible to know your enlightened then it's one elaborate maze to wander in finding solace in the comfort of others on the same path. Further more, if we can induce altered states of consciousness by touching parts of the brain, G-Force experiments, and drug use (to name a few) then isn't it all explainable as bio-chemical reaction...and if that is true than doesn't that make us just like purring cats in a way? I mean in our completely natural state, at one with our enviornment and aware of senses we no longer even use in these modern times are we not just being. Returning to roots ancient...older than any known scipture. Man has always been afraid of the unknown which seems like a natural reaction in any of the other mammals...but we have this intelligence that has evolved and is always busy explaining what it doesn't understand in order to learn and understand. The earth is flat, god(s)are angry that is why the earthquake, be good or sacrifice something and you'll win favor, follow a master and he will save you...oh dear. I'm getting really carried away again....sorry. But don't get me wrong here...I like to ramble and enjoy whoever shares with me on the subjects I write. But that doesn't mean I think I know anything. Nor do I claim to have the answer...just alot of questions.
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Date: Fri, Nov 21, 1997 at 03:57:14 (EST)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Devil's Advocate
Message:
Author Wayne Dyer has a discussion of enlightenment issues in his talk "Four Pathways to Success" that some may find palatable. He takes a look back at his 25 years of writing and trying to figure out people and life. There is no absolute translation of "truth, consciousness, bliss" Words convey relative meaning emanating from the context of the speaker and projecting an image onto the context of the listener. The details of the projection depends on the geometries of the speaker and listener world models. That is why you were exposed to stories concerning the taste of mangos and the world view of frogs. What I have since found out is that frogs can't swim in the ocean. The taste of a mango is still difficult to describe. Regards, CD http://www.cdickey.com/books_other.htm
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Date: Fri, Nov 21, 1997 at 12:29:21 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Devil's Advocate
Message:
I don't know anyone who is enlightened. Over the years I've been fascinated with those who are said to be enlightened. Some may be. I don't know. I agree completely, although I doubt I have looked at it nearly as much as you have. Whether someone is elightened is difficult to tell, and probably open to a lot of wishful thinking by the person doing the looking. Enlightenment is elusive. If you say you are, you are not. Maybe. Again, this is just my personal opinion, but I really believe that if someone holds himself or herself out as being enlightened, they almost by definition are not. It's like my experience with truly intelligent and wise people. It's almost like they don't know that they have those qualities and they certainly would not advertise them to others. However, the sense I get is not in the ways I've seen Maharaji and premies throw it around, as in 'I'm blissed out', means the knowledge is working. That's not the same as enlightenment in my opinion. I couldn't agree more. I think the "blissed out" stuff was used by GMJ and his minions to play into the "I-want-to-get-high" ideology that was so prevalent in the culture of the West in the 70s. I didn't see the movie either, but I did go to see Boogie Nights recently, which is an incredible film, but a little disturbing and a tad violent in places. I am, however, a little surprised that it got by with an "R" rating. Joe
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Date: Tues, Nov 18, 1997 at 10:32:52 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Letter to Maharaji
Message:
Maharaji For 16 years I loved you completely. I felt I needed nothing else. You were everything. Then I realized that I wasn't free. That there was a cage - the duality of master and devotee. I realized that it isn't true that the only way to experience that place of fulfillment inside is through Knowledge, the teacher and the student. But I didn't feel betrayed until I discovered that the reason it isn't true is because you yourself doubt it. How else can the choices you've made be explained? I'm writing this letter because I've realized that freedom does exist. But it's only since the day I left you 9 months ago that I experience it.
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Date: Tues, Nov 18, 1997 at 11:12:19 (EST)
Poster: Correction
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Letter to Maharaji
Message:
Maharaji For 16 years I loved you completely. I felt I needed nothing else. You were everything. Then I realized that I wasn't free. That there was a cage - the duality of master and devotee. I realized that it isn't true that the only way to experience that place of fulfillment inside is through Knowledge, the teacher and the student. But I didn't feel betrayed until I discovered that the reason it isn't true is because you yourself doubt it. How else can the choices you've made be explained? I'm writing this letter because I've realized that freedom does exist. But it's only since the day I left you 9 months ago that I experience it. Excuse me, I never meant to say that the reason it isn't true is because you yourself doubt it...what I meant is; that it isn't true and I realized that because you yourself doubt it.
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Date: Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 15:48:28 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Premie.Com Has Disappeared!!!!
Message:
Has anyone else noticed that the sickening, sometimes pathologically disturbing, and often hysterial, "premie guestbook" has disappeared? For some time now, premie.com is nothing more than a "Harlan Ray Cooley" page. Has Elan Vital/and/or M himself given agya against it?
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Date: Mon, Nov 24, 1997 at 00:46:37 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Premie.Com Has Disappeared!!!!
Message:
Well, Joe (and Michael, and everyone else) - here's what's posted on the former premie.com site: "..... we did take the site down on purpose, and it's not a problem with construction or anything like that. However there are no plans to put the site back up. No other explanation is being given at this time." Sounds like orders from above to me. Too bad, really (this was one place where premies could express themselves since they aren't allowed to give satsang anymore). Mili, if you're around, do you have any comments?
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Date: Mon, Nov 24, 1997 at 14:49:16 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Premie.Com Has Disappeared!!!!
Message:
Well, I am certainly disappointed! I went to that site to look for old friends; I thought that since they don't seem to show up on this site, they must still be in the grips of Elan Vital. Now I'll just have to hope that they find their way here. I suspect that the site was closed down by orders from on high, but I'd love to know the reason for its demise.
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 10:16:28 (EST)
Poster: Ex-Mahatmaji
Email:
To: Michael
Subject: Re: Premie.Com Has Disappeared!!!!
Message:
>Has anyone else noticed that the sickening, sometimes pathologically disturbing, and often hysterial, 'premie guestbook' has disappeared? For some time now, premie.com is nothing more than a 'Harlan Ray Cooley' page. Has Elan Vital/and/or M himself given agya against it? Well, I am certainly disappointed! I went to that site to look for old friends; I thought that since they don't seem to show up on this site, they must still be in the grips of Elan Vital. Now I'll just have to hope that they find their way here. I suspect that the site was closed down by orders from on high, but I'd love to know the reason for its demise. Well, Joe (and Michael, and everyone else) - here's what's posted on the former premie.com site: '..... we did take the site down on purpose, and it's not a problem with construction or anything like that. However there are no plans to put the site back up. No other explanation is being given at this time.' Sounds like orders from above to me. Too bad, really (this was one place where premies could express themselves since they aren't allowed to give satsang anymore). Mili, if you're around, do >you have any comments? ************************** I’ve been involved enough in that BS organization to imagine and give you a brief summary of what happened to premie.com : M has never been satisfied with anything democratic (I should find some interesting quotes about it), nor with premies expressing what they really think. The word democracy makes him sick. Question & answer sessions have always been a nightmare for him, except when he has a good control of what’s going on, like in aspirants meetings after a few sessions and hours talking to them, or premie meetings lasting for hours. He would never start a meeting with questions from scratch. The risks are minimum once you are fascinated and hypnotized. This whole Internet business is a nightmare for him and his PR (public relation) staff (Mrs Ross Sutton & Co). The press didn’t have any information source for decades almost. He felt protected by grace very likely. Lots of local issues went to press people, but they didn’t have any way to have an overall picture of what EV is all about these days. Now and thanks to Jim, David and Scott (& others I don’t know) a lot of accurate, pertinent and uptodate information is available. And there is a lot more to come. For this, they can’t do anything, even though they dream of being able to and will try desperately. They have consulted lawyers and experts, and spent thousands of $ on that issue. Too bad for EV’s finances already in bad shape (hundreds of thousands of $ of debts, in US and various countries). Conclusion : Nothing to do about ex-premie.org ..... and these horrible newsgroup forums ... I feel very sorry (I don’t know how Ross managed to tell this to Maharaji). The only thing possible is having a better PR policy (according to her and his criteria) regarding premies taking part in newsgroup discussions, if possible. Nevertheless, premie.com was a ridiculous (sorry to say this) place, and the best way to show how people can be brainwashed to the point where they say all these ridiculous things. It could be fine to have a web-site like this if there is no counterpart. Now there is one, and much more explicit for ‘normal’ people. When you see all this BS on premie.com, and the explanations on ex-premie.org, there is something for anybody with enough brain to understand. Mind you, some very dedicated premies have brain and use it (not to the point they question all this, unfortunately). Beside this, discussions between fanatics and anti are also a source of information for press. Mili, OP and their friends won’t say anything anymore, unless they dare make the 1st step on the real path of salvation. I hope they will one day ! So, after all these meetings and consulting, Ross decided to have her lieutenants get in touch with these guys and convince them to stop all their mess (poor guys now feeling guilty) with some beautiful satsang-like requests. They obeyed. Agya. No thinking. That’s all. What would be interesting now is having the transcript of these discussions, or copies of these emails. I hope our mole is going to send us something : -))) Or one of these poor guys will dare posting details ? Anonymously is fine..... Some out of control weirdo might start a new premie web-site. Wait ans see. That’s fun.
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 11:55:18 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Ex-Mahatmaji
Subject: Re: Premie.Com Has Disappeared!!!!
Message:
Yes...exactly as I imagined..and it is so much fun to be part of something that is a living nightmare for M to not be able to sort out. I was paranoid in the early stages of this site months ago when it started up. I thought that somehow it would be sabatoged. But I did mention that M belittled the internet when I last saw him last year and I thought for a tech addict that he wasn't telling all. It became obvious afterwards that he was trying to set the stage for disinterest among his devotee's...hoping to stem the tide of curiousity. I put this to the likes of op and Mili but they denied, denied. They continually said M is about freewill....yah, right. All the direction given in the past was just the 'organization' and crazy premies, poor M couldn't say no at first because there was so much love. But now he guides everyone...he's done away with crazy indian customs right? Like ashrams and ooops, darshan. And of course he never tells anyone what to do. BS is correct. I was on those phone feeds with Yorum (finance man) and I heard M talk himself many a time about what is needed. And always was there this true devotee angle...true devotion. On the one hand he claims to ask nothing of his premies and on the other he asks and asks until people and even cities bust because they find it hard to say no. But of course we were constantly told that he only wanted those who were receptive to giving to be contacted. These call were lenghthy and filled with stories of how much it means to M...how much he needs this or that...such a trip. I would have conflicting feelings at the time. I would feel 'blissed out' and at the same time I experienced a gut feeling that I called my 'mind'. Yorum would tell stories about how he'd express that it seemed impossible what M was asking and yet he would explain how it occurred as 'grace'. That ticks me off now..it was sweat, and hard work. Premies were encouraged to take loans out, borrow on their credit cards. And I'm talking recently here. Of course, the average premie didn't want to partake in the phone feeds. I always sensed a reluctance among them when it came to money matters. Like pulling teeth... and yet they would tell you how good it felt to give, no matter how difficult it seemed to be to find a way. I would tote the party (if not democrate - facist?)line that giving money wasn't what it was about, especially to new premies and aspirants. Humourous. Of course, how the hell does one afford to fly expensive planes and live in luxury? Independently wealthy? I knew better. There are a few extremelly weathly premies but that has never been enough. Thus his present situation. Not surprising that his finances are in trouble and have been for a long time. The last time I saw him he went on about that his problems made ours look tiny. That if we had any notion of what he goes through...etc. etc. Premie's eyes tear up in response. Hearts melt. Poor perfect master suffers so.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 01:04:23 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Ex-Mahatmaji
Subject: Re: Premie.Com Has Disappeared!!!!
Message:
Nevertheless, premie.com was a ridiculous (sorry to say this) place, and the best way to show how people can be brainwashed to the point where they say all these ridiculous things. It could be fine to have a web-site like this if there is no counterpart. Now there is one, and much more explicit for ‘normal’ people. When you see all this BS on premie.com, and the explanations on ex-premie.org, there is something for anybody with enough brain to understand. Absolutely! I used to get a kick out of the posts over there that just gushed devotional gibberish. One could easily substitute the word "Ringo" for "Maharaji" and see the mentality at work in the outpourings of "Love & Devotion". They were such clear expressions of devotees' true attitudes toward the "meditation teacher" that premies posting here claimed to see when they lifted their eyes unto the stage. I'm sure some other renegade will start up another site, and the expressions of gratitude will continue. "Ooooh, RingoooOOOOOOOOOoooo!!!!..."
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 15:57:21 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: whalenj@fbm.com
To: Ex-Mahatmaji
Subject: Re: Premie.Com Has Disappeared!!!!
Message:
>Has anyone else noticed that the sickening, sometimes pathologically disturbing, and often hysterial, 'premie guestbook' has disappeared? For some time now, premie.com is nothing more than a 'Harlan Ray Cooley' page. Has Elan Vital/and/or M himself given agya against it? Well, I am certainly disappointed! I went to that site to look for old friends; I thought that since they don't seem to show up on this site, they must still be in the grips of Elan Vital. Now I'll just have to hope that they find their way here. I suspect that the site was closed down by orders from on high, but I'd love to know the reason for its demise. Well, Joe (and Michael, and everyone else) - here's what's posted on the former premie.com site: '..... we did take the site down on purpose, and it's not a problem with construction or anything like that. However there are no plans to put the site back up. No other explanation is being given at this time.' Sounds like orders from above to me. Too bad, really (this was one place where premies could express themselves since they aren't allowed to give satsang anymore). Mili, if you're around, do >you have any comments? ************************** I’ve been involved enough in that BS organization to imagine and give you a brief summary of what happened to premie.com : M has never been satisfied with anything democratic (I should find some interesting quotes about it), nor with premies expressing what they really think. The word democracy makes him sick. Question & answer sessions have always been a nightmare for him, except when he has a good control of what’s going on, like in aspirants meetings after a few sessions and hours talking to them, or premie meetings lasting for hours. He would never start a meeting with questions from scratch. The risks are minimum once you are fascinated and hypnotized. This whole Internet business is a nightmare for him and his PR (public relation) staff (Mrs Ross Sutton & Co). The press didn’t have any information source for decades almost. He felt protected by grace very likely. Lots of local issues went to press people, but they didn’t have any way to have an overall picture of what EV is all about these days. Now and thanks to Jim, David and Scott (& others I don’t know) a lot of accurate, pertinent and uptodate information is available. And there is a lot more to come. For this, they can’t do anything, even though they dream of being able to and will try desperately. They have consulted lawyers and experts, and spent thousands of $ on that issue. Too bad for EV’s finances already in bad shape (hundreds of thousands of $ of debts, in US and various countries). Conclusion : Nothing to do about ex-premie.org ..... and these horrible newsgroup forums ... I feel very sorry (I don’t know how Ross managed to tell this to Maharaji). The only thing possible is having a better PR policy (according to her and his criteria) regarding premies taking part in newsgroup discussions, if possible. Nevertheless, premie.com was a ridiculous (sorry to say this) place, and the best way to show how people can be brainwashed to the point where they say all these ridiculous things. It could be fine to have a web-site like this if there is no counterpart. Now there is one, and much more explicit for ‘normal’ people. When you see all this BS on premie.com, and the explanations on ex-premie.org, there is something for anybody with enough brain to understand. Mind you, some very dedicated premies have brain and use it (not to the point they question all this, unfortunately). Beside this, discussions between fanatics and anti are also a source of information for press. Mili, OP and their friends won’t say anything anymore, unless they dare make the 1st step on the real path of salvation. I hope they will one day ! So, after all these meetings and consulting, Ross decided to have her lieutenants get in touch with these guys and convince them to stop all their mess (poor guys now feeling guilty) with some beautiful satsang-like requests. They obeyed. Agya. No thinking. That’s all. What would be interesting now is having the transcript of these discussions, or copies of these emails. I hope our mole is going to send us something : -))) Or one of these poor guys will dare posting details ? Anonymously is fine..... Some out of control weirdo might start a new premie web-site. Wait ans see. That’s fun. Excellent analysis and it sounds spot-on to me. I have a question. If Maharaji is too freaked out to have premies express themselves on the internet, and since he seems to be able to click his fingers and his mindless devotees follow his wishes, why don't WE, or some group of ex-premies, start a premie webs-site discussion group? I know Elan Vital will disavow it, but there might be premies who would post there, and I agree, their postings are illuminating. Just a thought. By the way, thanks again for your analysis. Do I know you? You can e-mail me if you like. Joe
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 04:39:10 (EST)
Poster: Ex MahatmaJi
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Premie.Com Has Disappeared!!!!
Message:
That would be extremely funny and interesting! Elan Vital’s officials would certainly be mad about it, and maybe that could be a good enough reason to start this forum. Good idea ! How could we do that ? I’m sure many of them read this .... They very likely have a forum on this on their BBS By the way : Elan Vital has a private BBS. First Class software, 1 site in Madrid, 1 site in LA Both of them connected.. Do you want some phone # and passwords ? (They will be mad) Poor guys : they should start using their brains .... and question their relationship with this pseudo father & mother who is abusing them and has been for so many years. It’s difficult to question this. I don’t know if we know each other. But : I’m not going to email you. For private reasons I can’t explain for the moment. I might in some weeks or some months.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 09:09:27 (EST)
Poster: Mr EX
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Let's revive Premie.com (Re: Premie.Com Has Disappeared!!!!)
Message:
What about reviving the ex premie.com site ? Just for fun. Unfortunately I erased my whole cache (the folders where Internet Explorers pages are kept) when I installed the 4.0 version. If someone wants to dig them out ..... There are some good tools for that, like MSIE Cache Explorer.
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Date: Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 21:41:17 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Hello Everybody
Message:
Scott sent me this address and much to my surprise, here I am! Many months have passed since I last posted. Time DOES heal, but still, nothing gets under my skin more than knowing premies love and trust Maharaji, when he is deceiving them. I look forward to reading what people post here. Thanx.
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Date: Sun, Nov 16, 1997 at 10:33:28 (EST)
Poster: Seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Hello Everybody
Message:
Hello Deena, I am glad to see you back. I enjoyed reading your posts when I first came across this group - they were part of the reason I wrote my 'journey'. Look forward to reading your future posts. Seymour
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Date: Sun, Nov 16, 1997 at 16:22:28 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Hello Everybody
Message:
Nice to meet you Seymour! I'd like to read the 'journey' posts again...maybe finally write my own even. Where are they now? It feels good to have spilled my guts and know that it may have benifeted someone else too. Actually, it makes all those years seem not a complete waste. I am so proud to know people like yourself who have had the guts to speak up here. So many more suffer in silence and/or denial.
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Date: Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 00:17:12 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Hello Everybody
Message:
Hi Deena, Good to hear you are doing well. So how is the car?
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Date: Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 04:48:48 (EST)
Poster: Patrick
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Hello Everybody
Message:
Hallo everyone..Just found this page. CD what happened to your Maharaji links page? also I was wondering why the Premie.com site and Mili's site have all vanished overnight. Yorum is this your idea?! I think that this forum is a much better idea than the newsgroup. Well done Scott. P
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Date: Tues, Nov 18, 1997 at 14:02:00 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Hello Everybody
Message:
Hi Deena - I think I have something that you might want. (It's a picture.) Drop me a line (petkat@mail.trib.net) and let me know. I'm still not sure of your e-mail situation, so let me know about that too. Hope all is going well for you. Katie
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Date: Mon, Nov 24, 1997 at 11:35:59 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Hello Everybody
Message:
Hi Deena, Good to hear you are doing well. So how is the car? Hi CD! My car is 'Bitchin'. How are you?
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Date: Mon, Nov 24, 1997 at 11:39:06 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Patrick
Subject: Re: Hello Everybody--to Patrick (Re: Hello Everybody)
Message:
Is that the Patrick I know from the beginning days on the forum, you used an alias then no?
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Date: Mon, Nov 24, 1997 at 11:40:57 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Hello Everybody--to CD (Re: Hello Everybody)
Message:
The post above from me is for you CD
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Date: Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 23:22:10 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Hello Everybody
Message:
> My car is 'Bitchin'. How are you? Deena, I'm cruising along and workin hard. Hangin here a bit. You still have the fiesty spirit. Right On! Me, I stick to being stubborn. Sometimes I like to stomp hard on the pedal of the V8 of my old 91 T-Bird. Though I usually don't drive much over 100 mph I do keep the Goodyear speed rated tires on just in case. The premie songs sound pretty good through the JBL system. Cheers, CD
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Date: Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 13:43:48 (EST)
Poster: Scott
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Welcome to the New Forum II
Message:
To All, - After spending the last 6 months sifting through all of the spam and poor connections of the Usenet, and after finding out that the Paradise Server has both sped up their service and also gotten many of the bugs out of their system, Dave Stirling & I decided it might be best to reopen this forum. - As it seems that some of the old stalwarts have been 'retiring back to their stalls,' maybe some newer folks will see clear to bring some fresh insight and understanding to this forum (things that there always don't seem to be enough of). - Enjoy and have at it.
Scott

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Date: Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 14:36:08 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Scott
Subject: Re: Welcome to the New Forum II
Message:
Interesting development. I thought you were more or less "permanently retired" from this discussion Scott. Welcome back. Things have quieted down in the discussions from last week. I too would like to see some fresh voices and I see there are indeed a few. Welcome to the new folks. I'm one who has had difficulty in getting all the messages on Usenet. Some of the messages posted just never make it to my server. And Dejavu is erratic at best. I'm gonna have to remain in "my stall" for the most part in at least the near future. I have some pressing business. Regards, Bobby
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Date: Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 22:49:20 (EST)
Poster: Semi-Bongo
Email:
To: All
Subject: Re: Welcome to the New Forum II
Message:
And a fond hello to one and all! I've been grumpily lurking on the Usenet group via the deplorable Deja News and have become totally fed up with it's tedious performance. So here comes Scott like the cavalry to the rescue and I can look forward to some scintillating fun just like the old days! Beam me up Scotty!!! Well done, old chap. :-)
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Date: Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 23:10:59 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Scott
Subject: Re: Welcome to the New Forum II
Message:
Dear Scott - Thanks very much for doing this. I ended up subscribing to Altopia so I could read all the messages (they usually show up on there sooner or later), but ended up mailing or re-posting messages for those people who didn't want to use Altopia. Thanks to David, too. P.S. I am not retired, but I AM sick and have been so for a week. I am barely maintaining the brainpower necessary to keep up with my e-mail, let alone think of answers to profound questions. So I'll keep reading but not posting for a while.
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Date: Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 13:59:31 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Scott
Subject: Re: Welcome to the New Forum II
Message:
Thanks also from me, Scott. Who, by the way, has retired to their "stalls?" OP maybe? The problem with usenet was its slowness, but I liked the easy way you could respond directly to what others said in their messages. Does anyone know if there is a way to do that here? JW
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Date: Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 15:22:11 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Welcome to the New Forum II
Message:
Re: "retiring to stalls" (don't you mean retiring to their "corners", Scott? Like in boxing? Or are you talking about horse-racing?): it's not op, because I e-mailed her and told her about the forum and she said Scott had already let her know... Katie
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Date: Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 19:26:39 (EST)
Poster: opie
Email:
To: Scott
Subject: Re: Welcome to the New Forum II
Message:
Sped up is right! Sign-on time is virtually nil here! As has been mentioned a few times, some of us have lots of life waiting to be lived outside of the internet (no digging intended - it just happens to be true). So I'm not in the stalls - or in the loo or the john (depending on which side of the Atlantic you're on) - just very busy. I appreciate your thoughts, Scott - and Katie, and I hope some true discussion can happen here. Truth is, besides being busy, I'm a bit tired of all the hair pulling, biting, arm twisting, word twisting, chomping, shit throwing, etc. etc. etc. that goes on. I understand Jim has to free up his gonads every once in a while by feuding with Mili (who seems to have to do the same) - but what gets me down is the Jim wannabees who imitate him, using the same weapons but with less finesse. (An underhanded compliment if I ever saw one - Jim, maybe you'll appreciate it when you get back) What else? - I've become rather passive, perhaps. I've watched all the volleys but I'm not too attached to them. Perhaps the brainwashing is taking its toll, but I just feel too in love and too happy to bother duking it out these days. I have a few responses to some of the news items, and perhaps will post them sometime, but I've been answering mainly by email. So, greetings to Katie and JW and Bobby and Chris and Scott and Douche and all them guys. And if you get here, to Jack Tuff and Annie and Brian and Mili... and Deena (are you still seething at seeing me here?) I hope you enjoy yourselves
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Date: Tues, Nov 18, 1997 at 10:21:12 (EST)
Poster: OP
Email:
To: opie
Subject: Re: Welcome to the New Forum II
Message:
Hi OP...seething? Granted there were times that you and I expressed alot of anger but I always enjoyed that you shared openly and honestly about how you felt because it only verified what I instinctively knew at the time to be true. 'Happy and in love' is not to be argued with here...lots of people feel that from there personal, spiritual or religious experience. It's the inability to use critical thinking that is easily argued. The so called 'Mind' that M for so many years has toted as the greatest hinderence to experiencing fullfillment within is the most blantant and obvious example of thought reform I can think of at the moment. Those so called 'Doubts' that a premie is to be rid of, is the very essential and necessary function of a human being to protect itself from harm. Ignoring that, is at best foolish and at worst dangerous. You once said that you appreciated my honesty and could sense my sincerity. This is one of the few places in my life where I can be either of those.
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Date: Tues, Nov 18, 1997 at 10:34:53 (EST)
Poster: oops!
Email:
To: OP
Subject: Re: Welcome to the New Forum II
Message:
Sorry, I wasn't trying to pretend that I am you talking to yourself. It was me, Deena.
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Date: Tues, Nov 18, 1997 at 12:32:41 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: opie
Subject: Re: Welcome to the New Forum II
Message:
I understand Jim has to free up his gonads every once in a while by feuding with Mili (who seems to have to do the same) - but what gets me down is the Jim wannabees who imitate him, using the same weapons but with less finesse. (An underhanded compliment if I ever saw one - Jim, maybe you'll appreciate it when you get back) So, greetings to Katie and JW and Bobby and Chris and Scott and Douche and all them guys. And if you get here, to Jack Tuff and Annie and Brian and Mili... and Deena (are you still seething at seeing me here?) Thanks for the greetings, OP, but WHOM, exactly, are the "Jim Wannabees" who "imitate Jim" and who "get you down?" Hmmm? It's pretty unfair, deceitful really, to label group of unnamed people as something, but not say who they are. What are you, some kind of "Mili Wannabee?" JW
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Date: Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 07:50:30 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Welcome to the New Forum II
Message:
You've given me homework already! I agree - it's unfair to lump people together, so now I have to go through some of the Deja posts and eventually let you know to which I was referring. But deceitful??? There I DISagree. I thought some of the posts were rather obvious in their mimicking. I'll get back to you.
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Date: Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 07:54:59 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: oops!
Subject: Re: Welcome to the New Forum II
Message:
Hi Deena. I was wondering - until I saw the word 'seething' - then I knew who it was. Kind of fun, guessing who's who here.
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Date: Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 13:45:50 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Welcome to the New Forum II
Message:
You've given me homework already! I agree - it's unfair to lump people together, so now I have to go through some of the Deja posts and eventually let you know to which I was referring. But deceitful??? There I DISagree. I thought some of the posts were rather obvious in their mimicking. I'll get back to you. No, OP, you're changing the subject from what you actually said. It's not "which" posts, it's WHOM are you referring to as "Jim wannabees." But moreover, in order for you to label people "Jim Wannabees" you must have something to base that on and don't need to just begin now to figure it out. AND, if someone is, as you say, obviously "mimicking" Jim, which is your subjective opinion by the way, that is entirely different than being a "Jim wannabee." So just tell us all who you were referring to and let them respond to you. It's only fair -- and yes -- in my opinion, after having made that statement, it's deceitful (maybe dishonest is a better word) not to. JW
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Date: Sun, Nov 23, 1997 at 20:26:33 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Scott
Subject: Re: Welcome to the New Forum II
Message:
Well, I'm happy to find this forum working again; I found the newsgroup to be too slow. It's also good to see you posting again, Scott. I wondered why things were quieting down on the newsgroup; I guess everyone is hiding over here!
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