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Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive #
1 |
From:
Nov 15, 1997 |
To:
Dec 9, 1997 |
Page:
4
Of:
5 |
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Deena -:- Arti -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 02:23:11 (EST)
___David Simpkiss -:- Re: Arti -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 05:11:09 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Arti -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 07:03:31 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Arti -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 10:14:09 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Arti -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 10:34:09 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Arti -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 10:46:11 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Arti -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 12:44:12 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Arti -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 14:19:25 (EST)
___David Simpkiss -:- Re: Arti -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 14:23:59 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Arti -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 15:17:05 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Arti -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 19:13:28 (EST)
___Her Majesty's Subject -:- Re: Arti -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 21:01:52 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Arti -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 23:19:04 (EST)
___Her Majesty's Subject -:- Re: Arti -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 23:44:53 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Arti -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 23:52:58 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Arti -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 00:36:18 (EST)
___Her Majesty's Subject -:- Re: Arti -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 00:55:12 (EST)
___DVD -:- Nice Tao Christ -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 01:26:08 (EST)
___Bystander from the beginning -:- Re: Arti -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 14:05:28 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Arti -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 14:22:31 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Arti -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 16:54:11 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Arti -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 17:13:44 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Arti -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 18:21:08 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Arti -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 20:05:26 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Arti -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 20:38:58 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Arti -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 21:12:37 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Arti -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 21:47:06 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Arti -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 21:51:56 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Arti -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 22:32:44 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Arti -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 23:08:01 (EST)
___To bftb -:- Re: Arti -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 09:13:01 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Arti -:- Fri, Dec 5, 1997 at 16:15:36 (EST)
Brian -:- Calling All Premies!... -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 20:23:26 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Calling All Premies!... -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 20:45:18 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: Calling All Premies!... -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 20:53:48 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Calling All Premies!... -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 21:57:08 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: Calling All Premies!... -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 23:24:33 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Calling All Premies!... -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 23:32:12 (EST)
___David Simpkiss -:- Re: Calling All Premies!... -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 23:44:54 (EST)
___David Simpkiss -:- Re: Calling All Premies!... -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 23:47:54 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Calling All Premies!... -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 23:59:31 (EST)
___Me again -:- I'll get this right one day! -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 23:59:33 (EST)
___Mr Ex. -:- Re: Calling All Premies!... -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 05:56:21 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Calling All Premies!... -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 06:34:01 (EST)
___annie -:- Re: Calling All Premies!... -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 08:16:03 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Calling All Premies!... -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 09:46:50 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: I'll get this right one day! -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 10:35:28 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: I'll get this right one day! -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 14:41:50 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Calling All Premies!... -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 14:45:30 (EST)
___David -:- Re: I'll get this right one day! -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 15:08:45 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Calling All Premies!... -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 15:27:17 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: I'll get this right one day! -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 16:02:02 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: I'll get this right one day! -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 21:44:34 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: I'll get this right one day! -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 07:46:46 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Calling All Premies!... -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 14:25:46 (EST)
Mike Addison -:- Thought I was the last Premie -:- Sat, Nov 29, 1997 at 15:25:58 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Sat, Nov 29, 1997 at 19:57:38 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Sat, Nov 29, 1997 at 20:08:30 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Sat, Nov 29, 1997 at 21:28:52 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Sat, Nov 29, 1997 at 23:29:39 (EST)
___David Simpkiss -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premiep -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 00:00:15 (EST)
___David Simpkiss -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 00:25:59 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 09:00:49 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 09:42:42 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 11:36:42 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 13:36:10 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 15:23:49 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 16:11:24 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 18:37:19 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 20:36:33 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 09:34:04 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 16:31:09 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 16:52:59 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 18:24:58 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 19:18:25 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 19:32:33 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 20:11:23 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 20:42:07 (EST)
___guy in the gap -:- more clutter about god -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 23:04:52 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 19:40:38 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 09:28:03 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Thought I was the last Premie -:- Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 14:33:28 (EST)
David Simpkiss -:- One you may have missed -:- Fri, Nov 28, 1997 at 22:10:25 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: One you may have missed -:- Sat, Nov 29, 1997 at 07:52:01 (EST)
___David Simpkiss -:- Re: One you may have missed -:- Sat, Nov 29, 1997 at 20:39:14 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: One you may have missed -:- Sat, Nov 29, 1997 at 23:16:55 (EST)
The Messenger -:- More stuff... -:- Fri, Nov 28, 1997 at 15:03:04 (EST)
___Bored Rigid -:- Re: More stuff... -:- Fri, Nov 28, 1997 at 15:21:03 (EST)
another one of those -:- pesky Jim clones -:- Fri, Nov 28, 1997 at 01:17:44 (EST)
___Bill is not -:- A pesky Jim clone -:- Fri, Nov 28, 1997 at 14:45:54 (EST)
___What's the deal with -:- Larry the cook? -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 01:17:43 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Larry the cook? -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 01:27:44 (EST)
Deena -:- One of M's favorite stories -:- Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 17:58:24 (EST)
Deena -:- One of M's favorite stories -:- Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 18:00:02 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: One of M's favorite stories -:- Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 18:06:54 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: One of M's favorite stories -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 12:45:59 (EST)
___Deena -:- Thanks JW....Eee Gad! -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 09:36:51 (EST)
___b -:- Re: Thanks JW....Eee Gad! -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 21:21:33 (EST)
David Simpkiss -:- This darkened night -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 21:44:42 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: This darkened night -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 22:29:09 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: This darkened night -:- Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 08:16:36 (EST)
Michael -:- Happy Thanksgiving! -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 17:02:47 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Happy Thanksgiving! -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 18:07:35 (EST)
___Brer B -:- Zip a dee do dah -:- Fri, Nov 28, 1997 at 03:02:58 (EST)
___Bobby -:- test - please ignore this -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 13:43:50 (EST)
Deena -:- Meditation Techniques -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 09:55:36 (EST)
David -:- Web site stuff revisited -:- Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 15:20:14 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Web site stuff revisited -:- Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 16:32:45 (EST)
___David -:- Re: Web site stuff revisited -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 15:18:36 (EST)
___David -:- Re: Web site stuff revisited -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 15:30:49 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Web site stuff revisited -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 15:47:54 (EST)
___David -:- Re: Web site stuff revisited -:- Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 18:25:40 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Web site stuff revisited -:- Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 00:41:53 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: Web site stuff revisited -:- Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 03:40:05 (EST)
___David -:- Re: Web site stuff revisited -:- Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 06:02:02 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Web site stuff revisited -:- Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 08:17:19 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: Web site stuff revisited -:- Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 11:53:36 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Web site stuff revisited -:- Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 14:19:35 (EST)
___David -:- Re: Web site stuff revisited -:- Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 15:35:17 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Web site stuff revisited -:- Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 17:41:58 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Web site stuff revisited -:- Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 16:31:30 (EST)
Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 02:23:11 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: Deena@cableregina.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Arti
Message:
In light of the call Brian received (and in all fairness until Annie gets the same call we won't confirm that the sudden disappearence of most premies and their sites is all due from orders on high) I still felt that we need to keep premies who do stumble on the site exposed to some of what was offered before on the premie sites that are now gone. Therefore I'm going to post Arti (once sung by premies in the west).
Arti
Devotional Prayer in praise of the Living Perfect Master
Jai Gurudev, Maharaji
Your glory fills the world
Protector of the weary and the weak
You bring the death of attachment
You bring the mind true detachment
Save us from the ocean deep
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev.
Creator, Preserver, Destroyer
Bow their heads and pray to You
All bow and pray to You
Scriptures sing Your glory
Sciptures sing Your sweet story
Your virtues are ever true
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev.
Chanting, fasting, charity, austerity
Never bring you knowledge of the soul
Will never reveal your soul.
Without the grace of Satguru
Without the Knowledge of Satguru
Rites and rituals won't reach the goal
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev.
In the river of bondage to maya
All are swept out to sea
All are sinking in the depths of the sea
Guru's boat is the Holy Name
Guru's ship is the Holy Word
In seconds he has set us free
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev.
Anger, desires, attachments
Rob us of eternal life
Take away our heavenly life
Satguru gives True Knowledge
Satguru is eternal Knowledge
The sword that kills our problem life
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev.
Religions harp their own glories
Call me to follow their own path
Welcome me to follow their own way
The essence of all was revealed
The seed of all was revealed
I walk on the true way today
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev.
Nectar from Satguru's feet
Is so holy and it cleans us of our sins
So sacred in cleaning us of sins
When He speaks darkness cannot stay
Doubts removed, new life then begins
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev.
Mine, thine, wealth, health
Give them to the Lotus Feet of Love
Give them to the Lotus Feet of the Lord
Give yourself all to Satguru
Be united with the blissful truth
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev.
Bible, Gita, the Koran
Sing the glory of Your Name
They all sing the glory of Your Name
Angels sing Your glory
Heavenly hosts sing Your praises
They find no end to Your fame
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev.
Desires have robbed and left me
In the darkness of the night
Trapped me in the darkness of the night
Guru gives Holy Name and Light
Guru gives Holy Name and Sight
Cross the ocean by His love and light
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev.
Many past forms You have taken
Now we have come in Your control
Again You have come to save the soul
In this time of darkness
To lead your devotees from darkness
You have come as Hamsa the Prue Soul
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev.
Come to the shelter of Guru's grace
Come with heart and your soul
Bring Him your heart and you soul
Cross the worldly ocean
Cross it by your devotion
And attain the Supreme Goal
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev.
Now following this was another part of the song that the posting on the premie site left out. Does anyone know it in it's entirety? You know, You are my father, You are my mother, You are my brother, You are my friend etc. etc. (I always thought that it was the best part of the whole song)
As I posted I could hear the music and all our voices singing it. It occurred to me that in 1983 when it was last sung at events to my knowledge, as well as every nite in the satsang halls, that that was a long time after the Bob Mishler days. Maharaji was not a teenager. His 4rth child was born and he was 25. Wise beyond his years, a prodigy. And yet he allowed this to be sung. He did not object to it. He did not disagree with what it meant when he sat on stage as premies sang it. Or when they stood in front of his photos, candle in hand and sung it before they drank necter from his feet that was passed around in a small vile.
But long after Bob warned him that this eastern tradition of worshiping him should be done away with he continued. Years later he disbanded the ashrams and organization. He disappeared leaving the premies on their own. Then he came back blaming instructors and organizers for the way it was then.
Today he still will sit on the stage as devotional music is played giving his followers an opprotunity to what? Fix their hair, adjust their sore ass in their seat? Perhaps pick their nose? No, no...they worship...and they encourage him to dance! What's that please? Where is that taked about in the aspirant sessions? And darshan? Where in the public program is that alluded to? Where in the aspirant process is that mentioned... lining up for hours to prostrate before the Master. Just paying respects you say. No reason. He sits there and premies do this with humility. Not to smell his feet. What do they experience? Blissful joy unparrelled in this lifetime...the ultimate experience. Who would have quessed eh?
So start the public events Maharaji with the truth..."someday you will bend down in front of me to experience the true meaning of your life"
That would be honest.
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 05:11:09 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
You are my Mother and you are my Father, you are my Brother and you are my friend,
You are wisdom, you are riches, you are my all my Lord to me.
You are my all, you are my all, you are my all, my Lord to me.
Was there another verse? In 1973 in the Birmingham Ashram in England, we used to sing the WHOLE of arti in Hindi at about 6 am every morning. I always felt that arti was a beautiful devotional song, when I felt it in my heart to sing it. I did particularly like the "You are my Mother etc" bit. I personally feel it's a great tradgedy that there is nobody seemingly deserving of such praises.
David.
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 07:03:31 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Viewing all these verses to Arti takes me back to the Stone Age to the first time that I was invited to stay after satsang and participate in Arti. If it hadn't been for everyone seeming to know all the verses, I would have thought that they were making them all up to see how long I could stand. I was amazed that there was always ANOTHER verse coming. BTW, there were 14 verses and you posted 12. And no, I don't remember the missing ones.
The other song (I always thought it was a separate song) had at least 2 verses that started with these lines:
"You are my mother", etc, and
"Guru Maharaj Ji, your face is before me,
Your grace is a river..." (something, something).
I used to secretly get a kick out of watching the newbies out of the corner of my eye as Arti cranked on and on. They would get restless about the 6th verse, and it would only get worse. Especially without an "Eeee-yiiii, eeee-yiiii, yoe" to break up the monotony...
But then there was always that spoonful of water to wash down the whole experience, or your face (depending on who you were copying).
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 10:14:09 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: All
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Actually, this Arti deena entered, was particially lifted from the Guru Gita. The Shiva Muktanand Chelas use it as well as a host of others. It was meant to be sung to the Holy Name within in you. However, most devotees of different Gurus use it for their Guru worship. I like the Jotase Jota Arti Puja myself.
Shiva Muktanand changed verses as well from the text that Howard Woodroff published in 1921.
Knowledge techniques themselves are described in great detail in the Bramanad Gita of which there are nine explained. M uses only pieces of 4 of them.
It's funny, I was sitting in the hot-tub this morning and wondering if M was watching this forum. I think that he's getting alot of free publicity out of it. Maybe not good publicity... but like some Reporter said once: "There's no such thing as bad publicity... either way, you'll draw more people than you'll repel."
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 10:34:09 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Deena - this posting reminds me of the devotion that Hanuman had for Ram and the story where Ram pranam'd and wept at the feet of Hanuman because of Hanuman's devotion.
Jai,
Mike
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 10:46:11 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Thanks everyone who pitched in to remember...I seem to remember more of that song than offered here! Where's op when you really need her?
The part I use to wait until at the end of the long Arti (with this shorter song tagged on the end as if it was meant to part of it)was sort of like this:
Oh Guru Maharaji
Your mercy is endless
From you I was born
And to you now I come
No...thought reform wasn't used in mind numbing chanting, and then replaced with endless videos to condition and program thinking into the 90's. I watched every one released until 9 months ago and I can honestly tell you that he repeats himself continually and has one style of speaking to the Indian community and quite another to everyone else. His teachings are fraught with contradiction. And I'm not speaking of the zen koan type. He contradicts himself. He says one thing in one situation and quite another in another situation to suit his agenda.
My challenge to Premies is:
I challenge anyone to watch everything M has on video, including meant for only premie videos, ones designed specifically for service people or to encourage service and support financially of his work, as well as the countless videos of him posing with seductive looks towards the camera. Do this and see if you do not question what he is doing. I challenge anyone to do service, particularly back stage, at events which he attends, and not come away questioning his motives. I challenge anyone to be involved with the aspirant program in their city and test all the doubts that have been presented by ex-premies.
Are you courageous enough to take up the challenge?
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 12:44:12 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
The bland yellow background of this "Forum" page is the color of pus spilling out of the majority of posts here. I can’t help but feel disgusted as I read these ravings. I can’t help but feel that you are the kind of people that shouldn’t have been ‘premies’ to begin with - your motives for receiving Knowledge must have been as selfish as you reveal yourself to be now. This is the place where masks fall off and, boy, you sure are ugly! I would never want to be like you.
Maharaji came into your lives and told you about this Knowledge. YOU were the ones who asked for it, remember? He never asked you any money for it, just to give it a sincere try. You promised to practice it, and not reveal the techniques. You were insincere from the start. You are consciously disregarding every advice that he ever gave you, and yet you are blaming him for your problems. What could be more hypocritical than that?
Now, no one is persecuting you for blathering and raving. The personal insults and insinuations, and sheer nastiness stated here are just a travesty of freedom of speech. Yes, you are the people I wouldn’t want to see at any satsang program, and you are doing everybody a favor by never attending satsang again.
To have received Knowledge and to have such a competent Master is the chance of a lifetime - and you blew it!
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 14:19:25 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
My challenge to Premies is:
I challenge anyone to watch everything M has on video, including meant for only premie videos, ones designed specifically for service people or to encourage service and support financially of his work, as well as the countless videos of him posing with seductive looks towards the camera. Do this and see if you do not question what he is doing. I challenge anyone to do service, particularly back stage, at events which he attends, and not come away questioning his motives. I challenge anyone to be involved with the aspirant program in their city and test all the doubts that have been presented by ex-premies.
Are you courageous enough to take up the challenge?
His motive is very clear - to perform the service his Guru has entrusted him to do: to spread the Knowledge to people, in the way that he feels is the best.
Really, if you look at it that way, things couldn't be more clear.
- Mili
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 14:23:59 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Sure I blew it. And yet I tried harder than most to follow Maharaji. In the early 1980's I even applied to rejoin the ashram and attended nightly ashram applicants satsang. I was keen do do Maharaji's will becaise I believed he was the true One. In the end all of that folded and I was left to my own devices. Dear Mili, if I really felt it in my heart that Maharaji was the true Saviour, I would be the first to go crawling on my hands and knees to lay my head at his feet.
If Maharaji were to show me that he was the true one then for sure he would have me as his most steadfast devotee. But alas, I cannot give myself because some premie tells me that I've blown it and that I am wrong. Only God can show me what I need to know. Someone wiser than you or I once said that only God knows what is truly in our hearts.
David.
____________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 15:17:05 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
You are my Mother and you are my Father, you are my Brother and you are my friend,
You are wisdom, you are riches, you are my all my Lord to me.
You are my all, you are my all, you are my all, my Lord to me.
Was there another verse? There was another line after that that went something like:
"Our Lord is the superior power in in person,
You are my all, my Lord to me"
Jai Gurudev, etc. etc.
BTW those English words at the beginning of ARTI, including the "riches," "wisdom," "superior power," and "my all" language, were SPECIFICALLY written or approved by Maharaj Ji himself in about 1975 or 1976. No small ego, eh? Consider someone writing or approving such language about himself!
No one can suggest that these words came from anyone else, or that they were just some ancient song that GMJ inhereted and didn't understand that it had devotional qualities. I recall when the words were officially approved by him and added to arti.
BTW -- remember we used to sing "Western Arti?" It was the same words but to a country and western tune. I heard that GMJ didn't like it and the practice was ended.
JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 19:13:28 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
The bland yellow background of this 'Forum' page is the color of pus spilling out of the majority of posts here. I can’t help but feel disgusted as I read these ravings. I can’t help but feel that you are the kind of people that shouldn’t have been ‘premies’ to begin with - your motives for receiving Knowledge must have been as selfish as you reveal yourself to be now. This is the place where masks fall off and, boy, you sure are ugly! I would never want to be like you.
Maharaji came into your lives and told you about this Knowledge. YOU were the ones who asked for it, remember? He never asked you any money for it, just to give it a sincere try. You promised to practice it, and not reveal the techniques. You were insincere from the start. You are consciously disregarding every advice that he ever gave you, and yet you are blaming him for your problems. What could be more hypocritical than that?
Now, no one is persecuting you for blathering and raving. The personal insults and insinuations, and sheer nastiness stated here are just a travesty of freedom of speech. Yes, you are the people I wouldn’t want to see at any satsang program, and you are doing everybody a favor by never attending satsang again.
Dear Mili -
I am just wondering why you are back on here talking about the Knowledge against Maharaji's apparent wishes, and also wondering how I ever missed you (sometimes you are nice, but sometimes you are definitely not). I wonder how you can make such sweeping generalizations: such as that all the ex-premies motives for receiving knowledge must have been selfish - aren't everybody's motives for receiving knowledge selfish to a certain extent? I know mine were partly selfish - I wanted to be happy. Didn't you? Why did you get knowledge? And as far as characterizing ex-premies as insincere from the start - I think that the ex-premies were very sincere - that's why they feel so cheated now. Why vilify people because they didn't experience what you apparently do? Do you think that we are inferior beings? The kind of people who "shouldn't have been premies"? (I thought knowledge was supposed to be for everyone, although apparently not anymore.)
I also wonder why you apparently (although perhaps accidentally) have singled out David Simpkiss for your attack - he is one of the few ex-premies that actually seems to have some sympathy for Maharaji now. I certainly don't consider him to be insincere or hypocritical - just the opposite, actually. Maybe you're doing him a favor.
I'm glad you think all of us are doing everyone a favor by never attending satsang again, because attending satsang is something we're not likely to do. (Especially after being called selfish, ugly, insincere, hypocritical, and nasty!)
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 21:01:52 (EST)
Poster: Her Majesty's Subject
Email:
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Very intersting post. What were the other five techniques we missed and what are the bits we missed off the four we have? I don't expect an answer and I'll try and get a copy of that tome here somewhere.
____________________________________
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 23:19:04 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Her Majesty's Subject
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Who is Her Majesty's Subject and maybe I will answer :)
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 23:44:53 (EST)
Poster: Her Majesty's Subject
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Who is Her Majesty's Subject and maybe I will answer :)None other than myself, the loyal minion of her Gracious Majesty, Queen Elizabeth 2.
David Simpkiss.
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 23:52:58 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Her Majesty's Subject
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Dave,
Let me think about this for a bit. I'm kinda ify on sharing something online that I don't even share face to face. Especially someithing that I still practice each morning and each evening and have been since Satyanand initiated me.
However, in the mean time... you could look in the same publishers listing that published Shiva Shakti and the Garlend of Letters by Sir Woodriff for the Bramanand Gita and read the section on Yagyas and Pujas.
Enjoy,
Mike
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 00:36:18 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
golden love melts all my troubles away
everybody questions
all have doubts
yes, the contradictions
still M can weave a story with meaning
it does seem too easy
what have you been waiting for?
... it will mellow
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 00:55:12 (EST)
Poster: Her Majesty's Subject
Email:
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
No problem. I wasn't expecting you to answer and understand completely why you don't want to share this online. I'll check out the info you've given. Thanks.
Dave.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 01:26:08 (EST)
Poster: DVD
Email: memphis
To: CD
Subject: Nice Tao Christ (Re: Arti)
Message:
golden love melts all my troubles away
everybody questions
all have doubts
yes, the contradictions
still M can weave a story with meaning
it does seem too easy
what have you been waiting for?
... it will mellow
eight lines
thanks chris
The start of the cd te ching
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 14:05:28 (EST)
Poster: Bystander from the beginning
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Mili wrote:"You were the ones who asked for it,remember?....You promised to practice it and not reveal the techniques.you were insincere from the start...."
Mili,
With all due respect;get real.
After a person has spent anywhere from weeks to months to years of their lives(and'god'only knows how much money$$$$$$$)pursuing the dangling carrot of knowledge,and they finally find themselves in a room in the physical presence of maharaji,where they will now,FINALLY receive knowledge,and then(as was NEVER previously disclosed to them)right before this pinnacle moment where they will finally get to eat the carrot;maharaji 'asks' them not to reveal the tequniques to anyone-DO YOU REALLY THINK ANYONE AT THAT MOMENT WOULD GET UP AND LEAVE?EVEN IF A DYING VOICE SOMEWHERE WITHIN THEIR PSYCHE AT THAT VERY MOMENT SCREAMS:LEAVE?
At that point the lobster trap has been closed,and bud;you ain't green anymore:you're very red.You've been cooked.Only bites are taken immediately,until of course you are privelaged enough to attend your first 'fundraising' program,where you'll probably FINALLY be eaten.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 14:22:31 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Bystander from the beginning
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Mili wrote:'You were the ones who asked for it,remember?....You promised to practice it and not reveal the techniques.you were insincere from the start....'
Mili,
With all due respect;get real.
After a person has spent anywhere from weeks to months to years of their lives(and'god'only knows how much money$$$$$$$)pursuing the dangling carrot of knowledge,and they finally find themselves in a room in the physical presence of maharaji,where they will now,FINALLY receive knowledge,and then(as was NEVER previously disclosed to them)right before this pinnacle moment where they will finally get to eat the carrot;maharaji 'asks' them not to reveal the tequniques to anyone-DO YOU REALLY THINK ANYONE AT THAT MOMENT WOULD GET UP AND LEAVE?EVEN IF A DYING VOICE SOMEWHERE WITHIN THEIR PSYCHE AT THAT VERY MOMENT SCREAMS:LEAVE?
At that point the lobster trap has been closed,and bud;you ain't green anymore:you're very red.You've been cooked.Only bites are taken immediately,until of course you are privelaged enough to attend your first 'fundraising' program,where you'll probably FINALLY be eaten.
Another example of total bullshit...
You don't know what you're talking about, man. You don't know what the Knowledge is about and what Maharaji is all about.
Enjoy your nightmare.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 16:54:11 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Mili wrote:'You were the ones who asked for it,remember?....You promised to practice it and not reveal the techniques.you were insincere from the start....'
Mili,
With all due respect;get real.
After a person has spent anywhere from weeks to months to years of their lives(and'god'only knows how much money$$$$$$$)pursuing the dangling carrot of knowledge,and they finally find themselves in a room in the physical presence of maharaji,where they will now,FINALLY receive knowledge,and then(as was NEVER previously disclosed to them)right before this pinnacle moment where they will finally get to eat the carrot;maharaji 'asks' them not to reveal the tequniques to anyone-DO YOU REALLY THINK ANYONE AT THAT MOMENT WOULD GET UP AND LEAVE?EVEN IF A DYING VOICE SOMEWHERE WITHIN THEIR PSYCHE AT THAT VERY MOMENT SCREAMS:LEAVE?
At that point the lobster trap has been closed,and bud;you ain't green anymore:you're very red.You've been cooked.Only bites are taken immediately,until of course you are privelaged enough to attend your first 'fundraising' program,where you'll probably FINALLY be eaten.
Another example of total bullshit...
You don't know what you're talking about, man. You don't know what the Knowledge is about and what Maharaji is all about.
Enjoy your nightmare.
It's obvious that you're quite passionate about Maharaji and Knowledge.For some reason(in spite of your decision to attack me personally,rather then adress any point(s)I may have made in my post)I will continue in giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are actually capable of engaging in genuine discourse on any aspect this whole topic.
In this spirit;let's try again.
A question that I've always found that no premmie has been able to give a reasonable answer to(in my personal opinion of course)is;Why, if the techniques won't work without the grace of guru,are they kept so secretive?
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 17:13:44 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Hey, good question!
The secrecy involving initiation in the various spiritual tradtions has always intrigued me.
The position of Tibetan Buddhism these days is to just put the teachings out there. With Tibetan Buddhism, many previously guarded and secretive teachings are today being published. One of the rationales for this is the ongoing destruction of Tibet and the Tibetan culture by the Chinese. Tibetan Buddhism has thousands and thousands of documents written in Tibetan that are not translated into any other language. Many one-of-a-kind documents have already been destroyed.
Another argument for disclosure of formerly secret sacred teachings is that those who are not ready will misinterpret anyway. Our individual perspectives are always colored by our personal dispositions.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 18:21:08 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Thanks for appreciating my question and for your input. I welcome anyones answer to this question;not just Mili's.It's a real question for me and I like hearing anyone's angle on it.
Thanks again
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 20:05:26 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
To answer a question with a question...why is it that secret initiation is typically used by all cults and their leaders? Coincedence? Borrowing of a time honored tradition? Or simply a means to stay in business. Let's face it, if evey bustop billboard posted different secrets what would the attraction at the beginning be to follow Maharaji.
By the way, I thought what you wrote was dead on! But to suck up to Mili, I understand his anger with you.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 20:38:58 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Deena wrote to bftb:
By the way, I thought what you wrote was dead on! But to suck up to Mili, I understand his anger with you.
Deena, I can't figure out what you're referring to here. Bftb was naive/new enough to "give the benefit of the doubt" to Mili, believing him capable of responding intelligently to direct questions and pointed arguments.
Bftb, you stand corrected I hope. Mili looks at questions and other foreign objects with cow-like wonder. He will chew on them and then let them pass right on through - leaving behind what cows always do:
Mili wrote:
Another example of total bullshit...
You don't know what you're talking about, man. You don't know what the Knowledge is about and what Maharaji is all about.
Enjoy your nightmare.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 21:12:37 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
To answer a question with a question...why is it that secret initiation is typically used by all cults and their leaders? Coincedence? Borrowing of a time honored tradition? Or simply a means to stay in business. Let's face it, if evey bustop billboard posted different secrets what would the attraction at the beginning be to follow Maharaji.
By the way, I thought what you wrote was dead on! But to suck up to Mili, I understand his anger with you.
This explains how the 'secret' is used to draw peoples interest in the first place.Kind of like"I've got the greatest story that has ever been told to tell you"...."tune in at 11,i'll tell you then".You'll tune in.
Now that you've adressed the drawing power of 'the secret'-what then becomes the function of the maintenance of the secret by the one to whom it's been told?Is it just so that the drawing power will still be there for more new people?Or does it(as a cynical observer might say)also serve the function of creating a separation between those who've been told the secret and those who haven't?
In all fairness,a premmie might say about this whole'keep knowledge techniques a secret' stuff,that the reason they are kept secret is for the very fact that they are 'real as advertised' and that in order for them to actually 'do their job' it's gotta be done the way it's supposedly always been done and that it's simply not fair to a person to just give them the techniques without the benefit of the 'experience' through the grace of 'the master'
you know;that whole 'triangle' thing.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 21:47:06 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Yah, but what I wanna know is how the hell he has that kind of power that he can give 'Grace'...what's that anyways? As a premie, at least for me, it was the feeling of carrying me through life and that made everything so incredable. Now I discover that feeling good exists as just something that occurs sometimes and sometimes not...nothing to do with the big M after all.
But my quess is that few premies will test the water I'm talking about to see if it's true. They'd sooner pay big bucks to fly half 'round the world to be with him a total of 4 hours in 3 days! Or some prefer kissing his feet if offered. But wait, what I'm talking about is without a middleman...just you and your sense of inner fulfillment that is not dependent on anything external. Wonderful stuff and Maharaji has not got the copyright to it and no living teacher ever had in my opinion. Proof that the triangle isn't necessary is what my life experience has been these past 9 months since I denounced Maharaji as my master.
But of course I don't expect anyone else to have my unique experience, right?
By the way, who am I talking with anyway?
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 21:51:56 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Deena wrote to bftb:
By the way, I thought what you wrote was dead on! But to suck up to Mili, I understand his anger with you.
Deena, I can't figure out what you're referring to here. Bftb was naive/new enough to 'give the benefit of the doubt' to Mili, believing him capable of responding intelligently to direct questions and pointed arguments.
Bftb, you stand corrected I hope. Mili looks at questions and other foreign objects with cow-like wonder. He will chew on them and then let them pass right on through - leaving behind what cows always do:
Mili wrote:
Another example of total bullshit...
You don't know what you're talking about, man. You don't know what the Knowledge is about and what Maharaji is all about.
Enjoy your nightmare.
Naive I must be,because I genuinely believe that Mili is capable of adressing the question.Tempers and personal dislikes seem to often run high here,and get in the way of real hashing out of real questions/issues.However being the naive soul that I am;I still believe that beneath the understandable emotion, that Mili or anyone else on this forum always has the ability to take a step or two back from their guarded perspective and just try to genuinely answer a question.Or at the very least consider what the question is asking.
Speaking for myself;I find that incredible learning can take place this way,and I know that EVERYONE here is(or at some point was)attracted to learning.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 22:32:44 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Is it alright with you(or anyone else here) if I continue to post anonymously?If this is against any web site policy
(or is otherwise offensive in some way) that I don't know about let me know and I'll stop posting.
I in no way mean the above facetiously.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 23:08:01 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Is it alright with you(or anyone else here) if I continue to post anonymously?If this is against any web site policy
(or is otherwise offensive in some way) that I don't know about let me know and I'll stop posting.
I in no way mean the above facetiously.
Sounds cool by me. Just stick with one alias (Bftb) so it doesn't get confusing. Burke changes his name with each post, so I can usually only identify him by his writing style.
P.S. If Mili ever DOES get rational it will be fine by me. Been a year, though, so I don't hold out much hope. Good Luck.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 09:13:01 (EST)
Poster: To bftb
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Yes, of course, I didn't mean to ask for you to reveal yourself...I get pretty confused and wondered if this was a different side to Burke. No problem...anonymous is good!
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Date: Fri, Dec 5, 1997 at 16:15:36 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Arti
Message:
Yah, but what I wanna know is how the hell he has that kind of power that he can give 'Grace'...what's that anyways? As a premie, at least for me, it was the feeling of carrying me through life and that made everything so incredable. Now I discover that feeling good exists as just something that occurs sometimes and sometimes not...nothing to do with the big M after all.
But my quess is that few premies will test the water I'm talking about to see if it's true. They'd sooner pay big bucks to fly half 'round the world to be with him a total of 4 hours in 3 days! Or some prefer kissing his feet if offered. But wait, what I'm talking about is without a middleman...just you and your sense of inner fulfillment that is not dependent on anything external. Wonderful stuff and Maharaji has not got the copyright to it and no living teacher ever had in my opinion. Proof that the triangle isn't necessary is what my life experience has been these past 9 months since I denounced Maharaji as my master.
But of course I don't expect anyone else to have my unique experience, right?
By the way, who am I talking with anyway?
The way I see it, Deena, is - you renounced him, but he didn't renounce you.
- Mili
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 20:23:26 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Calling All Premies!...
Message:
Well, I just got off of the phone with a premie who called to notify me that MJ doesn't want premies to discuss Knowledge on the Internet. It seems that there are presences on the Net that are misleading and confusing some premies and many aspirants. I am appalled that anyone would DO that!!!
A few weeks back, I received some email at an old BBS account that I had used to post to Harlan's site under a different name. The emailer asked if he could call me on the phone to speak to me, and asked for my phone number. Since it wasn't going to be a collect call I figured "Why not?", and responded. So weeks went by and I forgot about it and then I get this call from a different premie informing me of MJ's preference regarding the Internet.
I pointed out that since MJ's stated mission is to take Knowledge to the entire world, there would seem to be a better chance of reaching that world via the Internet. I also pointed out that I was only being contacted for the first time in many many YEARS because I HAD posted onto the Internet. "Hmmm...", said the premie. The apparent contridiction didn't slip past him, but he reassured me that it is still MJ's expressed desire that premies NOT post. When I pointed out what a wonderful tool the Internet is to
"By the way, what happend to premie.com?", I asked. He responded that Harlan had been in contact with one of MJ's instructors a few weeks back. The instructor instructed him about MJ's feelings regarding the Internet. Although this is something that Harlan would already have been aware of (him being a web-surfing fool like myself), he subsequently decided to "revise" his web page format to bring it in line with the Master's wishes.
When I pressed to find out if MJ was personally responsible for the decision to contact posting premies, he waffled here repeatedly. First he claimed that it was an effort being conducted by "people around Maharaji". When reminded of some of the stupid edicts handed down by people around MJ in the past, he hinted strongly that the effort was in line with MJ's wishes. (More waffling. Does this sound familiar, Deena?)
So, if you happen to be among the few premies posting to the web (or sneaking looks!) who HAVEN'T been "instructed" as to MJ's wishes, I am hereby notifying you that you should probably maybe perhaps cease and desist. But only "if you want". And you do want, you know. He's gonna know just by looking in your guilty eyes the next time you shell out good money to kiss his feet. You'll be sorry. Turn off that puter and get back to some wholesome videos! (By his grace, of course...)
[HEY SCOTT!! CAN'T THIS BOX POSSIBLY BE BIGGER THAN A POSTAGE STAMP???]
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 20:45:18 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: the premies
Subject: Re: Calling All Premies!...
Message:
Too bad! I suspected something like this had happened because all of a sudden op, Chris, Mili and Annie had dropped from view - glad you found out what it was, Brian.
I have (mostly) enjoyed communicating with all of the premies and I am sorry that they can't post on the Internet any more.
Regards to op, CD, Mili, Annie, and even Jack (if any of you are listening)...
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 20:53:48 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Calling All Premies!...
Message:
I knew it! I KNEW IT! It's always 'people around Maharaji' who give these orders! I remember being told that he was the Lord of the Universe and the latest Incarnation and the most recent Avatar and God in Human Form, and then, I would be told that Maharaji never said this, it was 'people around Maharaji.' Do you think that this guy will ever take responsibilty for anything? Why can't he just come out and say "I don't want you premies on the net because you'll be contaminated by all those folks in their minds?" People around Maharaji make all the decisions, don't they.
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 21:57:08 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Re: Calling All Premies!...
Message:
No surprise here, funny cause I just finished an e-mail to Katie and we had been discussing this and I had expressed my opinions that this latest news confirm. I always felt it was a matter of time before this happened. To tell you the truth I'm surprised it took this long.
Where is our ex-instructor these days? Hope he can tell us about whether M speaks of the ban at the Dec. event.
When I was involved it was exactly like this...yah Brian, waffle is what we did. You have to dance pretty fast in M's world to avoid the bullets.
Poor baby, poor Maji, did that mean ol puter scare you...did that net frighten wittle baby? Mommy take care of it...
Good Gad!
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 23:24:33 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: anyone
Subject: Re: Calling All Premies!...
Message:
..I suspected something like this had happened because all of a sudden op, Chris, Mili and Annie had dropped from view..Please don't make assumptions.
I have not heard this before, nor have I dropped from view. I've been otherwise occupied. If I should cease reading or posting here or on the newsgroup, it will be due to priorities of time and energy.
But could this be the reason that Jim has not been posting here? ha ha He was supposed to be returning home after two weeks, right about the time eXMahatmaji was posting.
(Don't you wonder if the exmahatmaji is fictional?sheesh)
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 23:32:12 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Calling All Premies!...
Message:
Hi Annie - I am sorry for making assumptions and I am very glad you are still here! (I can definitely understand the priority of time and energy...also being otherwise occupied.)
Re: Jim and ex-Mahatmaji (I call him Mr. Ex.) I have never met either of them but have exchanged e-mails with both of them and don't think that they are the same person. For one thing, Mr. Ex appears to have much more feeling and understanding for GMJ than Jim does! After corresponding with Mr. Ex, I do think that he is who he says he is.
Hope you had a good holiday - take care and keep in touch.
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 23:44:54 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Calling All Premies!...
Message:
Maharaji has only made things worse for himself by banning
premies from discussing K & M. Now whenever some unwitting
ex-premie or ex-aspirant does a search on "Maharaji" they'll only get us lot and none of the sales talk etc.
His fundamental grasp of the real word and how ordinary people think is sadly lacking. What is this guy's aim in creating this secret society? I was having some good email dialogue with some premies up until a week ago and then suddenly, they stopped writing to me, like I'm one of the unclean or something. Do they really think that that is the way to treat other human beings? So does Maharaji see the likes of me as LESS than a human being? From my own experience of meditating on word & nectar techniques, which I still do, those guys are definitely NOT meditating and experiencing peace of mind. They're experiencing fear & paranoia. Some wierd trip that I don't want to be a part of.
I've sent this message on my Lynx text browser so I hope it all comes out...
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 23:47:54 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Calling All Premies!...
Message:
Maharaji has only made things worse for himself by banning
premies from discussing K & M. Now whenever some unwitting
ex-premie or ex-aspirant does a search on "Maharaji" they'll only get us lot and none of the sales talk etc.
His fundamental grasp of the real word and how ordinary people think is sadly lacking. What is this guy's aim in creating this secret society? I was having some good email dialogue with some premies up until a week ago and then suddenly, they stopped writing to me, like I'm one of the unclean or something. Do they really think that that is the way to treat other human beings? So does Maharaji see the likes of me as LESS than a human being? From my own experience of meditating on word & nectar techniques, which I still do, those guys are definitely NOT meditating and experiencing peace of mind. They're experiencing fear & paranoia. Some wierd trip that I don't want to be a part of.
I've sent this message on my Lynx text browser so I hope it all comes out...
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 23:59:31 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Calling All Premies!...
Message:
Hi David - (your messages are coming through fine.)
I was very angry when I heard that GMJ had stopped premies from talking about knowledge on the internet [although I was glad to hear from Annie (above)]. It sounds as if GM and company want to have total control of ANYTHING that is said about knowledge! I, too, don't like being treated as a "monmot" (not sure of spelling), especially since I have really liked corresponding with some of the premies I've met on the newsgroup.
Re: no premie presence on the net: I've already gotten one e-mail from someone wanting to know the location of the December program in Long Beach and I predict that we (especially David) will probably get more. I really didn't know where to refer the guy. If any premies are reading this, perhaps they can tell us where to send people who need information on programs, etc!
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 23:59:33 (EST)
Poster: Me again
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: You lot
Subject: I'll get this right one day! (Re: Calling All Premies!...)
Message:
Sorreee but I screwed up again and this time sent my message twice. I think I've sussed this Lynx text browser now. By the way I meant to write, "His fundamental grasp of the real world" and not "word" as I did write. Maybe this wasa Froidean slip on my part.
David.
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 05:56:21 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex.
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Calling All Premies!...
Message:
I'm still here, even though I don't post very often.
I've done my bit, hoping that more people will
manifest and participate.
I'm delighted by all these recent posts.
That's proving again that Maharaji's crazyness
is endless. (I exagerate. I strongly hope that there will be
an end to it, as soon as possible).
Until now, he managed his way out of a lot of difficult
situations, because he had control over information.
Thanks to Internet and the 'ex-premie.org' web-site, this era is over.
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 06:34:01 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Calling All Premies!...
Message:
I have not heard this before, nor have I dropped from view. I've been otherwise occupied. If I should cease reading or posting here or on the newsgroup, it will be due to priorities of time and energy.
The seed list of 'premies' to contact was evidently taken from Harlan's site. It was from posting there that I was contacted. Don't know if anyone thought to check a.c.m or this site. Do please let us know if you ARE contacted, hum? I mean, don't just drop from site. [Hey! A pun!]
But could this be the reason that Jim has not been posting here? ha ha He was supposed to be returning home after two weeks, right about the time eXMahatmaji was posting.
Annie, you should be ashamed! Mahatma Jimji is very busy right now instructing female Canadian aspirants. The man is working selflessly and putting in very long hours. He flies tirelessly around town in an attempt to bring personal peace to as many as possible :)
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 08:16:03 (EST)
Poster: annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Calling All Premies!...
Message:
Annie, you should be ashamed! Mahatma Jimji is very busy right now instructing female Canadian aspirants. The man is working selflessly and putting in very long hours. He flies tirelessly around town in an attempt to bring personal peace to as many as possible :)
hahaha yes... this sounds like auld Jim.
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 09:46:50 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: Bigguy32@juno.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Calling All Premies!...
Message:
Your a cold man Brian... ;>
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 10:35:28 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Me again
Subject: Re: I'll get this right one day! (Re: Calling All Premies!...)
Message:
Hi guys. Me again. First, Annie, you've got to be kidding. I'm me, Mr X (whom I've also spoken with) is Mr X and so on. None of us stuck in the web of Maya merge with each other. But you were just joking, right?
I've been out of town for a few weeks and have to leave again this morning. I probably won't post again much before Christmas.
I, too, talked with Maharaji's helper. His name is David Coyne and he can be reached at 805-494-4156. He seems like a nice guy and sounds like he's been around Maharaji a fair bit for the last couple of decades. He told me that, while he has no specific direction from Maharaji to do so, he and an instructor or so have taken it upon themselves to contact people who posted on Harlan's page and advising them of what Maharaji's said re the net, i.e. leave him off of it. Not that it was ever a secret. Maharaji's said as much for the past few years. Maybe having an instructor spell it out for Harlan made the difference. Funny how premies are more than able to invoke Maharaji's satsang verbatim when they want. I can't imagine Harlan and the instructor he spoke with agreeing that Maharaji's words were subject to too many interpretations. He said "quit." He means "quit."
(By the way, I wonder if Harlan screamed to Mr. NON-X Instructor, like he did to me, that his page was "mine, mine, mine." Probably not.)
I guess Maharaji thinks the net may go the way of 8-tracks or, perhaps, Sony Minidiscs (I bought one!). Wishful thinking might leave him squinting at the pesky little net, expecting that, in the right light, with a little grace, it might just disappear. I'm sure that whenever he hears one of those now-trite tv essays about it's trivial content-poor track record, he calls everyone into the living room, boosts the volume and smiles like a motherfucker. He smiles one of those big beaming Lord of Malibu smiles. "See" he says, "I told you we shouldn't get involved in that garbage." Later that night, when they get a chance, all the residence premies log on briefly to check their mail. Even Maharaji does (he's been chatting with Bhole Ji recently. Feels sorry for him stuck in Jersey like that. And besides, the guy never married!).
No, like it or not, the net is with us. Maharaji's just holding his breath.
Anyway, David Coyne found some of Maharaji's other words a little more open to interpretation. "Peace to the world." He's bringing it. Yes, of course. "Supremest Lord in human form"? Well, we all are.
David offered to try to set up a meeting for me with Maharaji. I told him I'd love to meet the guy and have a real discussion with him. You know, the kind where you get to follow up on your previous question and then some? David said he would make some inquiries at the Long Beach program. I said I'd only agree to a MODERATED discussion in a semi-public format. The moderator could be a premie for all I care, just so long as he or she was educated, intelligent and well-read in the fields of communication and interpersonal dynamics. I nominated Chris.
Okay, not really. We didn't get into details. He just said he'd try to set something up. I don't doubt David's sincerity for a moment. Still, the chances of Maharaji agreeing to meet a mere former cult memeber -- yeah, right!
While out of town I picked up the latest issue of Skeptic magazine. Fantastic. Lots of good stuff there. (That's Skeptic, which is a different and perhaps better journal than the Skeptical Inquirer. At least it's got more stuff.) It's the silver-coloured issue dedicated to "God." Interesting that Martin Gardner, the "father" of the modern Skeptical movement, if you can call him or it such, believes in God. He calls himself a "fideist" by which he menas one who believes in God jsut becuase he wants to. That is, he acknowledges that there's no good reason to. It just feels better to him to do so than not. Interesting interview.
I also read "Why People Believe Weird Things", a book by Michael Shermer, the editor of that magazine. A really good book. Compare premies to Holocaust deniers. Why not? I did.
So that's about it. Annie, talk on the street is that you're this years favorite for an "OP" an award given to cult apologists who front for the man with grace and aplomb. Mili wasn't even in the running.
Like I say, this trial I'm on is probably going to take me well up to Christmas. Also, I'm really resolved to not post as much. I just can't afford to.
So, until then, take care.
Jim
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 14:41:50 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: I'll get this right one day! (Re: Calling All Premies!...)
Message:
Annie, talk on the street is that you're this years favorite for an 'OP' an award given to cult apologists who front for the man with grace and aplomb. Mili wasn't even in the running.
Like I say, this trial I'm on is probably going to take me well up to Christmas. Also, I'm really resolved to not post as much. I just can't afford to.
So, until then, take care.
Jim
See, that's what you get for not pandering to Mr. Lawyer's feeble ego. So, I got kicked off the Internet for waving my fist and calling you a few names, but you can get away with it, huh? What am I supposed to do after that - just love you to death? Anyway...
An interview with Maharaji? Sounds good, Jimbo. Go for it.
Ask him what he thinks about what Bob Mishler said, point by point, and let's get this over with once and for all.
I wonder if Mr. Stirling would have the guts to publish it on his site, in case it happens.
Don't worry. I don't think the prerequisite thing to do will be to pranam first.
- Mili
P.S. To be a skeptic is good. Why not also be skeptic about the Mishler interview?
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 14:45:30 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: whalenj@fbm.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Calling All Premies!...
Message:
Well, I get back from Thanksgiving vacation and find that SO MUCH has happened. Your posting was hysterical, but also sad. It reminds me of all the cult-edicts from the past. AND, MOREOVER, I must say that I am just a little giddy that we are upsetting the lord of the universe and his minions by having the audacity to state our opinions about him.
It's also amazing that free speech is considered "confusion" even to current premies. (Clearly it would be too informative for aspirants in one of those aspirant programs where information about what they are getting into is so rigidly controlled.) But to premies? Aren't they supposed to be enlightened? I guess even they can't handle open discussion.
Brian, thanks, so so so so much for your posting. It made my day.
Joe
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 15:08:45 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: ds@ex-premie.org
To: Mili
Subject: Re: I'll get this right one day! (Re: Calling All Premies!...)
Message:
An interview with Maharaji? Sounds good, Jimbo. Go for it.
Ask him what he thinks about what Bob Mishler said, point by point, and let's get this over with once and for all.
I wonder if Mr. Stirling would have the guts to publish it on his site, in case it happens.
I'd be more than happy to put it on the site Mili. It's about time BigM took his head out of the sand and realised that the Internet isn't going to go away. I'm sure all of us would think far more of the guy if he simply responded to his critics in an honest and straight forward way.
David
P.S. If there's anyone out there with contacts to BigM, I'd love to do a face to face interview for the web site. Just name the time and place and I'll be there!
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 15:27:17 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Calling All Premies!...
Message:
Maharaji has only made things worse for himself by banning
premies from discussing K & M. Now whenever some unwitting
ex-premie or ex-aspirant does a search on 'Maharaji' they'll only get us lot and none of the sales talk etc.
His fundamental grasp of the real word and how ordinary people think is sadly lacking. What is this guy's aim in creating this secret society? I was having some good email dialogue with some premies up until a week ago and then suddenly, they stopped writing to me, like I'm one of the unclean or something. Do they really think that that is the way to treat other human beings? So does Maharaji see the likes of me as LESS than a human being? From my own experience of meditating on word & nectar techniques, which I still do, those guys are definitely NOT meditating and experiencing peace of mind. They're experiencing fear & paranoia. Some wierd trip that I don't want to be a part of.
I've sent this message on my Lynx text browser so I hope it all comes out...
Yes, precisely. And there's something else. Premies, most of them at least in my experience, are notorious gossip-mongers. Everyone talks about what everyone else is doing and part of going to festivals (freely admitted to me by current premies) is to see and be seen.
Part of this is an almost morbid fascination premies have about what GMJ is doing in his private life and what people are saying about him. So, I know a lot of premies will continue to visit the ex-premie site, but probably not say anything. That's sad. And it's partly because they will never hear the truth about that stuff from premies, Maharaji, or Elan Vital.
I was the same way. I remember in about 1978 when Sophia Collier came out with the book "Soul Rush." That's the book in which she said GMJ was so drunk at Millennium that it was surprising he was as coherent as he was (and he wasn't very) at that program. It also said some rather uncomplementary stuff about the leadership of DLM and GMJ personally. Anyway, even though I was in the ashram at the time, I got a copy of the book and read it cover to cover, although I took it to my job and read it there because I couldn't let any premie know (especially a mahatma or initiator) that I was reading it. I found out later that almost every ashram premie I knew had also secretly read it.
BTW -- Sophia Collier went on to found SoHo Sodas and the last I heard she is the head of Working Assets Investments (a socially conscious investment firm).
Joe
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 16:02:02 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: I'll get this right one day! (Re: Calling All Premies!...)
Message:
An interview with Maharaji? Sounds good, Jimbo. Go for it.
Ask him what he thinks about what Bob Mishler said, point by point, and let's get this over with once and for all.
I wonder if Mr. Stirling would have the guts to publish it on his site, in case it happens.
I'd be more than happy to put it on the site Mili. It's about time BigM took his head out of the sand and realised that the Internet isn't going to go away. I'm sure all of us would think far more of the guy if he simply responded to his critics in an honest and straight forward way.
David
P.S. If there's anyone out there with contacts to BigM, I'd love to do a face to face interview for the web site. Just name the time and place and I'll be there!
David,
This is the phone number (in the States, I guess) that Jim gave:
'I, too, talked with Maharaji's helper. His name is David Coyne and he can be reached at 805-494-4156.'
Also, Elan Vital U.K. shouldn't be too hard for you to reach if you decided to do it.
Hey, we can talk without insulting and sneering at each other! Gee.
- Mili
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 21:44:34 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: I'll get this right one day! (Re: Calling All Premies!...)
Message:
...talk on the street is that you're this years favorite for an 'OP' an award given to cult apologists who front for the man with grace and aplomb. Awww... sweet. But I couldn't possibly accept, for I am not an apologist, nor do I have a plomb.
Do you have an email address for David Coyne?
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 07:46:46 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: I'll get this right one day! (Re: Calling All Premies!...)
Message:
I thought that I had kept the original contact email on that BBS account, but a check there didn't turn it up. So I musta deleted it when I replied. David said I was originally contacted by a guy who's first name was Booth, and was able to read me back the post I put on Harlan's page. Can't be that many Booth's out there. If he was telling Jim the truth that this is an effort by himself and an instructor (which is a large step backwards from what he told me - "people around Maharaji"), then Booth would be that instructor.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 14:25:46 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Calling All Premies!...
Message:
Poor baby, poor Maji, did that mean ol puter scare you...did that net frighten wittle baby? Mommy take care of it...
Good Gad!
Deena, you're sick. I mean - really, really sick. You should get some professional treatment.
It's something in the biochemistry of your brain that's wrong.
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Date: Sat, Nov 29, 1997 at 15:25:58 (EST)
Poster: Mike Addison
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
I was amazed this morning to find this web site! I thought that I was the last of the moheekins so to speak. I've been practicing Knowledge for about 24 years now with some astounding results and sometimes nothing. It's interesting to read everyones comments and how much it sounds like the aftermath of a serious love relationship gone terribly wrong. It's been my experience that how you see others depends largely on how you see them inside yourself. I don't know if GMJ has done all that Bob Misler states he's done. Obviously, Bob was very close in his heart at one time to Guru Maharaji. And, I'm sure that his heart was broken over things he couldn't resolve with GMJ hearing how much he'd sacrificed for Guru Maharaji. I believe that we are all looking for that ultimate experience (whatever it may be for each of us) in some fashion or another and all of us choose whatever seems to fit the moment of that ongoing need. We do need to guard ourselves against people who don't have our best interest in mind. When I was in India, I was shocked to find a Sat Guru on every corner who was going to save the world and provide inner peace and love. I went to India to find a group or person who could answer some pretty hard questions I was pondering at the time. And, I came back with the answer that each and every person is the face of my teacher. And, that each and every person answers those hard questions in bits and fragments. It's my job to be attentive enough to put it all together. What Guru Maharaji is... with all of the world coming together and communicating via Internet and other mediums will become very clear to all of us who are interested in finding out. What he is not, will also fall out of the same medium. I've seen hundreds of those who claim they'll bring you peace and understanding and have come to the same conclusion each and everytime... I wouldn't want to be in their shoes if all they wanted was a few bobels and trinkets! Or, if they're using their followers precious hearts to gain and maintain some preceived power.
I think it's our responsibility to answer what he is to ourselves! My experience with Guru Maharaji has been positive to date. I did think it strange that one moment he's there and the next he vanishes into the void of the world. That was his choice. I'd like to join in on the bashing however, I'm to busy pulling the telephone pole of hypocracies out of my own eye.
I'm glad that we can have a common meeting ground to share these insights.
One last thing... can you imagine the terrible pain and regret a person would feel at the end of their life knowing that they'd deceived and broken the hearts of so many? What a responsibility to carry and to die with!
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Date: Sat, Nov 29, 1997 at 19:57:38 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mike Addison
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
Nope, you're not the last premie. Keep reading and you'll even see some brave enough to defend him on this page. Over his stated desire to NOT have a presence on the Internet, that is.
It's interesting to read everyones comments and how much it sounds like the aftermath of a serious love relationship gone terribly wrong. It's been my experience that how you see others depends largely on how you see them inside yourself.
The effect leads the cause?? Those who fell for MJ's self-serving line did so because when they first saw him they had already held him in high esteem?? I don't agree.
Maharaji is very careful to only allow his loving devotees to see him as he wants to be seen. He picks the time, place, and setting - usually elevating himself physically above them, or appearing in a carefully edited video, or both. Wonder why?
I don't know if GMJ has done all that Bob Misler states he's done.
Bob was either telling the truth, or lying. Which do you think? Half-truths? He had nothing to gain from lying as he wasn't on the lecture circuit or in the video-selling business like MJ is.
Obviously, Bob was very close in his heart at one time to Guru Maharaji. And, I'm sure that his heart was broken over things he couldn't resolve with GMJ hearing how much he'd sacrificed for Guru Maharaji.
Obviously, Mata Ji was ALSO very close in her heart at one time to Guru Maharaji. I'm sure that her heart was ALSO broken over things she couldn't resolve with GMJ, and how much MORE she'd sacrificed for Guru Maharaji. Perhaps she was lying...
What Guru Maharaji is... with all of the world coming together and communicating via Internet and other mediums will become very clear to all of us who are interested in finding out. What he is not, will also fall out of the same medium.
I definitely hope that the Internet will show clearly to the world what MJ is. He, however, is afraid that is the case and has chosen to avoid any medium that he does not totally control. His expressed purpose to "bring peace to the world" evidently does not allow unsupervised scrutiny by those able to recognize that he is a fraud.
I've seen hundreds of those who claim they'll bring you peace and understanding and have come to the same conclusion each and everytime... I wouldn't want to be in their shoes if all they wanted was a few bobels and trinkets! Or, if they're using their followers precious hearts to gain and maintain some preceived power.
Bingo! That's MJ to a tee. Except that "a few bobbles and trinkets" is an understatement of his large appetite. Trading in a 20 million dollar aircraft would buy him plenty of bobbles.
I think it's our responsibility to answer what he is to ourselves!
And do you believe it's "our responsibility" to warn people away from frauds and liars? Granted, it is ultimately a person's own responsibility to make a choice, but when facing wolves it is hardly responsible to take the position "every sheep for themselves" when we're all part of the same flock. If only from the wolf's perspective.
My experience with Guru Maharaji has been positive to date. I did think it strange that one moment he's there and the next he vanishes into the void of the world. That was his choice.
What "experience with Guru Maharaji"? Are you aware that he has changed his name to "Maharaji", sorta like "Cher"? Only very out-of-touch premies refer to him as Guru Maharaji. It could have been worse - he might have wanted to be called "The Guy Formerly Known As The Lord Of The Universe".
And he didn't just vanish in one moment. He backed carefully away from public scrutiny and has been carrying on as usual. Send him money. He will love you all the way to the bank. You can buy a 4-minute video of his personal drivel for $16 US. Proceeds go to further his "mission". Otherwise, forget about satsang. Premies don't give it anymore, by his grace. Truth now eminates only from the lips of the Master. We're talking major control freak, here. He would prefer that premies not post on the net concerning him, and the only site that was actively singing his praise was just taken down. He would also prefer that ex-premies, such as myself, would stop referring to him as a fraud :) [Dream on, MJ]
One last thing... can you imagine the terrible pain and regret a person would feel at the end of their life knowing that they'd deceived and broken the hearts of so many? What a responsibility to carry and to die with!
Right. My heart goes out to the tyrants, con-men, and charlatans of the world. Where do you get the idea that death brings this regret upon people? Not first-hand experience, I would guess. Perhaps TV? Touched By An Angel?
Now, check out http://ex-premie.org
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Date: Sat, Nov 29, 1997 at 20:08:30 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
Let's try that link again..
http://www.ex-premie.org< /A>
Sheeesh... Gotta remember all this stuff again!
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Date: Sat, Nov 29, 1997 at 21:28:52 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
Let's try that link again..
http://www.ex-premie.org< /A>
Sheeesh... Gotta remember all this stuff again!
Interesting reply Brian,
Actually no, I didn't see it on TV or Touched by an Angel...I work at a Hospis center and hear a hugh amount of dying crying out during there last minutes of life. Pleading to be forgiven for all manner of things (i.e., the people they've betrayed, lied to, stolen from) as though they were there to hear them.
Death has a very sobering effect on humans. They seem to realize that they can't bargin with death at all. I've seen millionaires offer to pay someone to give them just a bit more time as though we could.
And your right, I have been out of touch with Maharaji for some time now and was very shocked to see the first thing in years... a Web Page Flaming him.
I've learned to not accept any slander on anyone until I see proof that the statements are true. If it is true... then GMJ will probably react the same way my patients do right before they die... crying and pleading for another chance to change.
Also, since our communication via this medium is subject to the laws of slander and defamation of character... I try to express my opinion in a way that won't get me sued as well as try to be as fair as I can!
As for charlatens and cheats... I feel that what we do to them is far less than what the universe will do to them. By comparison, what we do would seem like a mercy act.
Ex-Premies also need to be careful if he is in fact acting the way ex-premie.org states so that they don't give him a legal foothold to reverse their cause in court. Which I think would really add insult to injury! Don't you agree?
And yes, there is a large amount of hurt around him from his Mother, Brothers, Devotees etc., which he'll have to answer for as much as the hurt that I cause my Mother, Brothers and Friends.
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Date: Sat, Nov 29, 1997 at 23:29:39 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
Hi Mike, welcome to our little light in the darkness...as far as court cases, don't worry. Read what the ex-instructor has written concerning this and you'll find that M's spent alot of money for a long time now trying to find a way to beat the freedom of speech issue that protects us on this site. I've never understood the term flaming or trashing...though I'm sure I've been accused of both. This is a forum where people can express themselves in a hopefully honest manner...and I for one needed to vent alot of rage to be honest. As M always says, Enjoy!
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 00:00:15 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premiep (Re: Thought I was the last Premie)
Message:
The whole thing is so deeply instilled into me that my
subconscious mind still sees Maharaji as God in human form.
That is the pain that some of us ex-premies are going
through. The utter desolation of one's whole core being
ripped out. OK we can handle it. But thanks to you guys.
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 00:25:59 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email:
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
I'll send that again. My Lynx text browser might be fast but it can only send short messages. Here's the WHOLE message:
I think a big problem for a lot of people, myself included,
is that we've spent about 25 years living with an
understanding that Maharaji is God in human form and the
Saviour of all Mankind.
Maharaji is responsible for this. It is not something
that premies just dreamt up. He told us who and what he
was over many years. Because the meditation techniques
do work for many people who practise them, we had good
reason to suppose that Maharaji WAS the Lord.
Now after 25 years of believing the Lord was on the planet
it is very difficult to suddenly turn everything around
and say, "Oh well, perhaps we were wrong."
The whole thing is so deeply instilled into me that my
subconscious mind still sees Maharaji as God in human form.
That is the pain that some of us ex-premies are going
through. The utter desolation of one's whole core being
ripped out. OK we can handle it. But thanks to you guys.
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 09:00:49 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
First, I just gotta take the opportunity to do this yet AGAIN without that darn space before the backslash...
Was Bob Mishler lying?? What did he say??? Could the Ex-Lord Of The Universe actually be a fraud?? Is MJ nothing more than a spoiled, pampered control freak??? These and other questions are delved-into at http://www.ex-premie.org, and can be read by those premies brave enough to click for themselves here:
Click Me
Now, back to your post...
I don't believe that people will automatically have regrets at death's door that just naturally flow toward sainthood. Your experience at the hospice has to be taken in the light of Western society which, more often than not, holds Christian values as being supreme.
I can see people, however, naturally regretting according to the values that they secretly believe they SHOULD have been living by. For instance, I can see Hitler regretting that those Jews Roosevelt & Churchill [his viewpoint] were able to triumph, while his own noble aims [again, his viewpoint] were stopped at 6 million Jews exterminated. I can't see him giving a damn about any one of his victims' suffering, however.
As far as MJ having regrets when he has to leave his Mansion behind - yeah, I can see that to a degree. According to Bob Mishler's account, MJ at one point lamented that he was perhaps less than divine. He apparently opted for the devotional benefits of pretending that he was engaged in a noble effort to bring peace to the world, and reverted to the "his father's devotee" role to provide the personal sugar-coating. So perhaps he will indeed whine and cry about how his own devotees have let him down by not buying enough videos to finance his 'mission' adequately. He really needs a bigger jet, you know. He's a large lad...
But he's still a 4th-grade dropout and has all of the money-handling skills associated with adolescents, so I don't worry about him suing anyone, least of all me, for slander or libel. Any lawyer worth his salt will first find out where the legal fees will come from, and MJ isn't about to sell anything that he has hoarded through his devotees' devotion just to chase me through the net of publicity that I would throw up. But he's free to try, if he wants to be headline news that badly. I look forward to denouncing him as a fraud on The Today Show, and of course to spending the book rights :) I can't wait till the press is camped outside of Little God's Little Acre and chasing him around with a camera. [Come and get me, Kanguru Of Amaroo! There are a lot of ex-premies who would ALSO like to be sitting up on a stage and mouthing-off alongside me...]
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 09:42:42 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
I agree with you that 25 years living with an understanding that M is God in human form and the Saviour of all mankind is conditioning that is like ripping the core of your being out! I for one experienced the process with intense anxiety because I'd wake up feeling like I was on the edge of the grand canyon and didn't have my balance...I didn't have any idea what there was now that everything I previously knew was gone!
Remember ARTI...I have the words which I'll post sometime here...it freaks me out to read it now. To think we sung that believeing it was true! That's heavy stuff. Just because M is more subtle (doing away with Arti so as not to be accused of being a leader of a cult) and aligns himself with the likes of Jesus, Buddha and Krishna but never directly comes out to claim it doesn't mean he isn't perpetrating the same deception. Anyone who has worked close to him backstage knows how holy he supposedly is. He makes himself out to be just a devotee like any other premie, in love with his master (his father) but every now and then the Perfect Master of the time who shows what has always been show by the Perfect Master of the time to only a few fortunate ones is here and there is no doubt about this being more than a meditation practice. He talks about all this alot. He speaks of his master with devotion and love and complete trust so that others will see his example. He talks about how hard he works to spread this knowledge and how little time he has for anything else. I don't doubt his devotion or the scheduale he keeps because of the meetings I've been privy to. But that doesn't change the basic fact that his belief that his father was saviour and his acceptence that he is too is one that sets up a system where followers will do anything for him.
That is the difficulty here...how far have premies and aspirants gone for M? How far will they go again. He is not just a friend or teacher...he believes he is much more than that.
So it is no wonder that there is so much pain in the process of walking away. My experience is so recent that despite the relief of being free of the duality of mind and heart (what I call the receipe for madness) what I went through to deprograme myself is still vivid and fresh in my memory.
We are here for you David...when I read Mishler's account I'd already made my mind up to leave but with each paragraph I read it was like someone was kicking me in the gut. It was an agonizing experience. I re-ead it a few times looking for a reason to doubt what I judged to be his honest account and sincere opinions based on what really happened. I just wish he was still alive to champion our cause. I ended up crying over that.
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 11:36:42 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
Very good points... David, Deena and Brian!
I liked the Maharaji - Cher comparison with the Artist, formerly known as the Lord of the Universe comment. It gave me a laugh :) And, I got up this morning wondering... what will brian have to say?
However, before you go on stage with M you and the other Ex-Premies might want to work through all of the pain that he's causing you so that when you do "Mouthoff," it'll have the power you wish it to have.
I've always seen Guru Maharaji as the divine aspect of everyones personality and not as any one person above others. So, the disappointment that I feel is to hear the human side of Prempal being publically examined. I wouldn't want my life examined in that way... however, I didn't and don't make the same claims that M does. I guess I'll be examined for other things :)
In India, there is a large Rationalist Movement where Sadhus, Sanyasis, Swamis, Gurus of all beliefs are being confronted in their villages before their devotees. Mainly, the "Rats" (as the inspected guru's devotees refer to them), are angry about these people claiming such things like Mantras having the power to cure a cobra bites. Asanas and Yantras having the power to cure cancers... so the person really doesn't need that western medicine... and so on. Not to mention peoples hearts being broken and wallets being emptied in devotion to these guys.
What the Rats do, is ask for a demonstration of the cure (the Rats provide a test subject such as having a dog or chicken biten by a cobra and then having the guru apply his mantra).
Or they ask for a person that represents the enlightenment that the guru or swami says his techniques causes which they could talk to and test.
When the guy can't produce... they print up the entire event and publish it in the local paper in a long list of Quack Gurus (known as the Mahuntas List) to avoid and why.
I found it interesting that Paul Twitchel, the original American Mahunta (a name he called himself) and the Founder of Eckankar, didn't really find out what Mahunta meant when he pladgerized Kirpal Singh's work for his Sci-Fi material which was latter used as gospel by his devotees.
Anyway, when the Rats started their movement, Kumbamela (a festival every 11 years where "Holy Men" would come down from the mountains and give darshan) started to see less and less of these guys coming down. Most thought, that the Sanyas got the word about the Rats and didn't want to be confronted by them.
In India, most people know that a good many Sanyasis are stoned on pom (a psychotropic drink) and kinda except it as part of the package. It was also widely accepted that if the Guru had wealth from his devotees... that he wasn't attached to that wealth and could let it go anytime and take on the appearance of a Sanyas. However, if this guy didn't drop everything from time to time and take on the Sanyas garb... and practices... they usually found him in a back alley with his throat cut.
We have to remember that India has had their Jimmy Swagards and Jim Jones as well, and they don't react very kindly to them when the finally react.
In a dejavu... It became so popular during the time of Vivekanand (cir 1860 to 1900) to go after these gurus who were demoted to fakirs (or fakers), there was a anti-cult, cult established called the Thugies. This is also where we get the word "Thug."
They were worshipers of Kali and their favorite practice was to go back into a village where a guru had been tested/failed... and strangle him and his devotees and devotees families... offering their bloody body parts to Kalima.
Ultimately, these guys got a bit carried away (which is an under-statment), and started strangling everyone for anything, until the British put a stop to it (or as much as they could).
I was initiated by Satyanand (one of the Mahatmas under Prempals father). I always found it curious that during the break-up of Mata-Ji and Premal, that Satyanand was one of the Mahatmas that Prempal named that he didn't want speaking in public.
I spoke to Satyanand about this and the old guy said that it was orignally intended that premies would come and study an assortment of Astanga-Yoga (8 branch practices of Yoga)that had been collect be Prempals father from various gurus and munis.
That the Mahamas, who were teachers in their own right, from various Yoga traditions would be invited to teach their methods as well.
It was only after Prempal came into view that people started calling his father Bhagwan (implying Lord of the Universe). Satyanand said that Prempals father told them just to go with it and pay it no mind.
However, when the snowball effect florished... a large amount of the old guys (mahatmas) were left behind in India rather than having the family confronted in front of Americans, and the idea of having an eclectic teaching center was forgotten altogether.
A large amount of the old guys are dead now however, after DLM got rolling... they formed their own centers and said the hell with DLM. Some of them still exist today and when you ask those who know the entire episode... they sound alot like Ex-Premies do now.
I don't think anyone will be able to confront Prempal however, what evidence that Ex-Premies do have... should be made available to newbies so that they can make a rational decision, and as you said Deena, not have their hearts torn out 20 year later.
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 13:36:10 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
Wow Mike...thanks for all this informative historical stuff. I really enjoy reading it. You've made a MAJOR contribution here. If I had read it 20 years ago it might have saved me alot of time. I never was attracted to the whole Indian trip (though I loved the Upanishads) and was more attracted to Zeb. That's why it took 7 years of being an aspirant to catch on for me.
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 15:23:49 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
Hi Mike - I agree with Deena - your historical background post was fascinating. I'd love to hear more. I'm curious to know when you received knowledge, and when was the last time that you had any contact with either Guru Maharaj Ji (oops, I mean Maharaji) or practicing premies? I got knowledge in 1972, stopped practicing in 1977, and didn't hear about Maharaji again (with one recent exception) until I found the ex-premie page and newsgroup.
P.S. You're right about Brian! He always makes me laugh too.
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 16:11:24 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
Do you see a trend here Brian my love? Your gopis are lining up. Frightening isn't it? That's what you get for making people laugh. But don't let that stop you...we more than most people need a good laugh.
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 18:37:19 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
Do you see a trend here Brian my love? Your gopis are lining up. Frightening isn't it? That's what you get for making people laugh. But don't let that stop you...we more than most people need a good laugh.
You may all come upstairs for personal instruction. But, due to the risk of fungal infection, I must insist that you leave your knickers downstairs :)
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 20:36:33 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
OK, OK! I could have gotten a lot more graphic, but decided not to. And see the thanks I get? Next time I won't bother!
P.S. Your answer still made me laugh, though...
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 09:34:04 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
Howdy Katie - I received Knowledge in 1973 after the festival in Amherst Mass. My last contact with Maharaji was last year when I went on a business trip to Sidney Aus. I spoke with new premies that had just attended something and they tried to get me to come to the next festival.
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 16:31:09 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
"THE GUY FORMERLY KNOWN AS THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE"
This is just too great. This is absolutely brilliant. I think this is how M should be addressed from now on.
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 16:52:59 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
'THE GUY FORMERLY KNOWN AS THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE'
This is just too great. This is absolutely brilliant. I think this is how M should be addressed from now on.
And I thought Clapton was God...
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 18:24:58 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
Thanks, Mike. I remember the festival in Amherst very well, & I'm sure many other people here do too. Actually, I was wondering how you knew so much about the Indian precendents of GMJ and thought perhaps you were one of the premies who spent time in India in 1971. There is a short piece somewhere on the ex-premie site by Bobby Manrodt which confirms what you said about the original intention to teach many different meditation techniques besides the Big Four. (If you're interested and can't find it, I can get the URL for you.)
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 19:18:25 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
'THE GUY FORMERLY KNOWN AS THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE'
This is just too great. This is absolutely brilliant. I think this is how M should be addressed from now on.
I agree. My husband thought it was extremely funny, although he never was a premie (he WAS a big Prince - I mean AFKAP - fan, though).
Better start building that upstairs room and preparing to change your name to "the ex-premie formerly known as Brian"...
From one of your many admirers.
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 19:32:33 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
After the festival at Amherst (which was just after I graduated from High School), my parents gave me a ticket to where ever I wanted to go as a graduation present. Naturally I chose India.
Some of my friends who'd also received the same type of present (some just got money which they put to their tickets) and I flew from New York to Delhi and spent what felt like forever on a bus to get to Prem Negar.
When we got there, Bal Bhagwan was giving Satsang and we were given a place to stash our stuff and put our sleeping bags out.
He was giving satsang in Hindi, so we just grooved on the energy (not knowing Hindi).
The next day we were introduced to Mahatma Satyanand and listened to his Satsang for hours.
My friends decided this "Monk Life" wasn't for them and they left to go to a Rock Concert in Ganshipuri.
I stayed around for a few weeks listening everyday to Satyanand for hours and doing service.
I really didn't request to receive Knowledge. Satyanand at one point of his satsang started to instruct me and I followed along.
He taught nine techniques and quoted them from the Bramanand Gita.
It was a looonnnnggg knowledge session compared to another knowledge session I sat in with Jag Deo when I got back to the states.
I thought that either Jag Deo had forgotten or just gave an overview of the techniques.
Anyway, Satyanand reviewed the techniques for several days with me.
I also sat in on a knowledge session with Parlokanand back in the states and he had the same techniques as Jag Deo expect just a wee bit different.
Each state-side Mahatma taught a very shortened and abbreviated version of what Satyanand taught in India.
I went into the Navy after getting back to the states and traveled all over South East Asia. During that time, I'd taken R&R and gone to various parts of India, visiting different traditions.
One of the things I did do (being the curious type) was to talk to alot of the premies and mahatmas there at Prem Negar. They were very open about history and who did what to whom.
I guess premies are the same all over the world... we love to gossip.
Some of the premies turned me onto some old devotees of Radhasaomi Sant Mat, who showed me pictures of Shri Hans Ji and his guru as well as some of the mahatmas that were at the ashram during the time I was there who belonged to that tradition.
It looked like there had been a split, and Shri Hans took some of the Mahatmas with him to start his own Ashram.
I asked Mata Ji and Bal Bhagwan a few years later about this (the split from Radhasaomi) and got some pretty cold stares. Boli Ji wasn't so closed mouthed about it.
He told me that Shri Hans left because of the politics of the devotees had after Shri Han's Guru died.
On an interesting note: I understand that Boli Ji is a taxi cab driver in New York now and Bal Bhagwan was in the recent Indian government as Transportation Secretary.
Unfortunately, Mata Ji passed away awhile ago however, I understand that GMJ resolved things with her before she passed.
I was shocked today to find that GMJs kids were college age! Last time I saw pictures of them... they were just babies. GMJ started a recording company for them.
Yes, please... I'd like the URL of the other techniques you've found. David Lane has an entire section devoted to Radhasaomi as well as other things.
Swami Muktananda's devotees also do Ajapa Yoga which is alot like Holy Name practice.
If you'd like to see something interesting... do a search on Elan Vital using www.excite.com You'll come up with Eureka Inc., something that teaches Surat Shabid Yoga or something like the Music Technique.
Looks like they decided to just borrow the name Elan Vital without asking.
Enjoy,
Mike
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 20:11:23 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
Hi Mike - here's the URL for Bob Manrodt's story about discovering that there were originally more than 4 knowledge techniques:
http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/kchanges.htm
I am really surprised to hear about how you received knowledge. Of course you know that all of us here in the U.S. just learned the big four techniques (light, music, holy name, and nectar), and we thought that that was IT. Even those of us who were doing other kinds of meditation stopped it because it wasn't "Knowledge". I'm not sure if you remember this, but for a while, we believed that Naharaji and each of his brothers was the personification of one of the four techniques.
Your story is really interesting - perhaps you will consider writing it down in the "Journeys" section of the ex-premie site. (My story is in there if you are interested in seeing it - also many others). It sounds like we are about the same age (I was born in 56). How did you get interested in spiritual matters when you were so young (high school age)? Most of the premies that I knew back when got into DLM in college.
Did you ever get to see Mata Ji, Bal Baghwan and Bhole after they split from Maharaji? (By the way, one of the premies that used to post on here - and had been very close to Maharaji - said that Maharaji never did reconcile with Mata Ji - apparently when Maharaji spoke about his mother's death, he was speaking about Shri Hans FIRST wife (his stepmother).
Take care.
(I'm going to e-mail this as well as post it because it's going to be below the "bottom" of the forum page.)
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 20:42:07 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
Hey Mike,
That's really fascinating info!
Much of what you have to say I never heard before. Satyananda gave you nine techniques? Wow. That's really interesting.
I had heard some stories about Divine Light Mission before Maharaji travelled to the West. I roomed with one of these guys at Prem Nagar in 1971, an English Premie named Clive. He told fascinating stories about the overland route to India, and how Mahatmas used to score hashish for them.
If you've got more stories Mike, I'm all ears.
Thanks
Bobby
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 23:04:52 (EST)
Poster: guy in the gap
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: more clutter about god (Re: Thought I was the last Premie)
Message:
Hey Mike,
That's really fascinating info!
Much of what you have to say I never heard before. Satyananda gave you nine techniques? Wow. That's really interesting.
I had heard some stories about Divine Light Mission before Maharaji travelled to the West. I roomed with one of these guys at Prem Nagar in 1971, an English Premie named Clive. He told fascinating stories about the overland route to India, and how Mahatmas used to score hashish for them.
If you've got more stories Mike, I'm all ears.
Thanks
Bobby
The eight branches of the Ashtanga tree are
abstinences,observences,postures,breath control,sense withdrawal,concentration,meditation,contemplation.
Perhaps these are the things he was talking about.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 19:40:38 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
I never was attracted to the whole Indian trip (though I loved the Upanishads) and was more attracted to Zeb. Who is Zeb?
Actually, I was heavily attracted to the whole Indian trip. Still am. For the most part, I loved being in India in '71. What a trip! India '72 lost a lot of its charm because of the heavy premie rules.
I was disappointed again and again by Maharaji's divestiture and rejection of the Hindu trappings. I was disappointed even more by his wholesale embrace of Western Materialism.
That being said, I think genuine spirituality is a path that leads beyond everything. Anything that spirit is......is NOT! Spirit cannot be contained by any form.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 09:28:03 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
I never was attracted to the whole Indian trip (though I loved the Upanishads) and was more attracted to Zeb. Who is Zeb?
Actually, I was heavily attracted to the whole Indian trip. Still am. For the most part, I loved being in India in '71. What a trip! India '72 lost a lot of its charm because of the heavy premie rules.
I was disappointed again and again by Maharaji's divestiture and rejection of the Hindu trappings. I was disappointed even more by his wholesale embrace of Western Materialism.
That being said, I think genuine spirituality is a path that leads beyond everything. Anything that spirit is......is NOT! Spirit cannot be contained by any form.
That's a funny typo...I thought I wrote Zen. Even though I was never into the Indian traditions I became totally into in the past 10 years until I left. I mean, I couldn't get enough of the videos from India and loved listening to the two Indian CD's he released. More than anything I wanted to go to India to see him dressed in (what's it called that he wears?) the Indian garb. Especially when he wore white. I was one of those gushy premies who loved anything and everything about M and didn't have to be reminded to practice because a day without it wasn't the same for me then. I went to as many events as I could afford to. I did as much service as I was capable of. I loved it all. Nothing in my life compared. I longed to attend a longer event than the 3 day ones I had been to in California, Miami or Rome. Australia, South America, (when the land there was okay)and India, were my longing, my dream. Darshan was the promise always hinted at and nothing could be sweeter for me to hope for.
But as usual I digress...I don't know if you'd like India today because M has made it more generic so all the western premies who attend can handle it. New people aren't given much of an intro like we were in the 70's.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 14:33:28 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Thought I was the last Premie
Message:
'THE GUY FORMERLY KNOWN AS THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE'
This is just too great. This is absolutely brilliant. I think this is how M should be addressed from now on.
And I thought Clapton was God...
Nope,you're all wrong;Garcia was god.No matter what the naysayers will tell you;he was not just a noodler.
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Date: Fri, Nov 28, 1997 at 22:10:25 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: One you may have missed
Message:
Dear Deena,
I've sent you a newsgroup posting which came in today from my server and which you may find interesting. It is written below. Yes I do
agree with your comments about the duality etc. That is one reason why I stopped going to see Maharaji. I was in danger of having a nervous breakdown if I continued.
One can only take a heavy trip for so long. In my humble opinion, Maharaji offers one hell of a heavy trip. Regarding your NDE: from reading about other people's accounts of NDEs (near death
experiences) it appears that there is a light that everybody sees and goes to and this light can manifest itself into whatever form the person feels most comfortable with. Hence, Christians can see the light as a figure of Jesus and so on.
In my NDE I just saw people. Kind, friendly and sympathetic people who definitely did not lay any heavy trips on me. They knew I had just commited suicide but were most understanding about it. There was no judgement there.
Yes I have seen the program about the pilots' experiences during high gravity experiments. I think that this was a red herring though. I
don't doubt their experiences but they were not NDEs or even OBEs (out of body experiences) but rather an experience of what happens just before loss of consciousness due to oxygen starvation in the brain. But that's just my judgement after studying all the facts. Others may come to a different conclusion.
I have emailed this to you and will post it on the forum so others can read it. The newsgroup posting is below.
David Simpkiss
djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
|\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_)
Cats know where it's at...
_________________________________________________
usenet posting to alt.cult.maharaji
From: fox@iinet.net.au (Mark Hogan)
I couldn't help reading the posting from Katie this the first time I have posted any thing and feel very strong about this to do this!!!!!
the question aroase about the technique of this fat bafoon Maharaji- what a conman this guy is!
A little about myself - Yea I got Knowelege back in 1980 in australia, hung out with alot of nice people like myself! that recieved the K ,
acturally I feel that I am most fortunate that I came through that experience and I am alive to tell you about it! Over dramatising you may think! in a period of 9 months I must of experience multiple nervesbrakdowns and get the jitters just typing this!
I remember sitting in casualty feeling that my chest was going to explode with pain.... this happened 5 times over 12 month period! I'm
telling all of you who read this! the process that I went through to get knowelege was the most traumertising experience I have ever experienced in my entire life and have spent the next 17 years very slowly and gently getting over it! boy did those eniciators do a number on me!
I have been very fortunate to encounter some very beautiful and responsoble people with a firm Knowelege of the Yogic tradition of "Kundalili YOGA" makes Maharaji look like a shalitan -- these
techniques of his are basic yoga techniques! the practice of Sound is beautiful and is used widely throughout many yogic traditions! also
"Ketchuri Mudra" wonderful technique taught by the Satyananda Yoga group in Northern India, goes way back in many YOGA Lineages!
Maharaji dosen't own a bloody thing!!!!
I have met some of the most amazing enlightened people that live beautiful and simple lives - with shear beauty eminating from their hearts! my goodness a shear joy just thinking about them! ...
sometimes I feel if I didn't go through the pain of being involved in that cult, that I never would have pursued the path that has led me to recovery! yes Recovery! 17 years of recovering from the
traumatised experience of going though those "are you good enough to recieve knowelege, sessions" my god what shear irresponsiblity! those initiators had!
I was told by this tall poppy ego maniac guy called PATRICK ???? that there was'nt any thing he could do to help me! just after he put me through the most traumatising experience of my life! my god! he cleaned his hands of me! after watching me go through what must be described as a breakdown! nobody was there to help me! "my soul crushed" the pain in my heart was undescribable.....
I have come accross many beautiful techniques that are taught by many different groups, new age and traditional... that little fat man does'nt own a thing!!!!!!!
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Date: Sat, Nov 29, 1997 at 07:52:01 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: One you may have missed
Message:
Rereading this I realized I never replied to the part on NDE. Pesonally, I think there is alot of evidence to support that it is a physical-chemical reaction that explains an NDE. I thought that showing those pilots in what looked like the throes of death (as if they were being gutted alive) and then their descriptions of feeling complete calm, detachment from any worry or fear and seeing loved ones or religious figures as well as some having mystical experiences fascinating. I don't know if we saw the same show but probably. Obviously no one will ever know but the fact that another show I saw had doctors who perform brain surgery on awake patients and have touched different parts of the brain inducing similar experiences makes me stick to my chemical cocktail theory. Makes sense to me that if intense meditation, chanting and dancing, or G-Force experiences, taking hallucinatory drugs and brain tampering can induce these experiences (not to mention supposed alien encounters linked to sysemic activity which causes electric stimulation to the brain that is known to induce hallucinations too) that science has alot to offer for explaination. Not as romantic but possible. I'm not very popular on this site with these ideas and I've yet had anyone share similar information. Seems everyone loves to entertain the possibility of more heavenly explainations.
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Date: Sat, Nov 29, 1997 at 20:39:14 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: One you may have missed
Message:
The programme I saw had air force pilots put in a centifuge with a camera filming them while under high G forces. They all blacked out in the end but they all said they felt just fine and didn't realise that their judgement was impaired. I also saw a programme on TV about electrical experimentation on the brain using powerful magnetic fields.
Of course you can have hallucinations if you tamper with the brain. I really have no intention of arguing about this. I have spent many hours researching both NDEs and OBEs and have reams of fascinating accounts which have helped me come to a conclusion which is satisfactory to me. I have also talked to many people about their OBEs, which are pretty common. Also, I have more than a passing interest in what is called "Spiritualism" here in the UK. The communication with people who have died.
Of course I could expound at great length about all of this but unless someone was particularly interested in the subject, I would just be preaching. I don't want to do that.
I have no intention of trying to CONVERT anyone to my understanding.
There's no thought police here, you know. Think and believe as you want!
David.
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Date: Sat, Nov 29, 1997 at 23:16:55 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: Deena@cableregina.com
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: One you may have missed
Message:
David...I never felt you were doing anything but sharing and that is all I was doing. Sorry if you misunderstood. I never felt I could convert anyone, and didn't feel you were trying to either, but I do always enjoy sharing my ideas to see if anyone might share them too. I must come across alot different than I intend to.
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Date: Fri, Nov 28, 1997 at 15:03:04 (EST)
Poster: The Messenger
Email: mess@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: More stuff...
Message:
A note that just zapped into the http://www.ex-premie.org website from cybaspacio...
HappyYoga@aol.com writes...
What a nice surprise to find your web site. I was in the "ashram" in the
70's myself. I see it as a step that I had desired to take. I am quite sure
that no one has a "corner on Truth". No one contains any more God than
anyone else. And I am sure it is knowing this that kept me from completely
being swallowed up by the entire experience.
If he wants to take normal, natural meditation techniques and build and
empire...well then that is his business, I guess. I am also happy to see a
web site such as this.
Please let me know if any are wishing online counseling regarding this,
perhaps the woman who "lost" her husband to DlM (or whatever they call it
now). I would be happy to help - even if it is just to listen - in any way
that I can.
Religions that divide are not Spritual avenues for me...but I am not saying
that breaking away from the rediculous affirmations of "anothers" overblown
estimation of himself...was not easy. I am simply glad that it is over, and
sorry to hear that it is on the upsweep again? Did I catch that right?
Anyway, should anyone wish to write me, I am best contacted at:
SpiritLHT@aol.com
Blissings! Nothing Real Can Be Threatened. Nothing unreal exisits. Yipee!!
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Date: Fri, Nov 28, 1997 at 15:21:03 (EST)
Poster: Bored Rigid
Email: bored@rigid.com
To: The Messenger
Subject: Re: More stuff...
Message:
For anyone who gets a little stupified by the debate about a little fat
lord of the universe, perhaps I could recommend a little light relief...
Click here to see
a web site with a difference.
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Date: Fri, Nov 28, 1997 at 01:17:44 (EST)
Poster: another one of those
Email: hot for KATIE!
To: little joey whalen
Subject: pesky Jim clones
Message:
I have been getting an education on islam from
a relative of my wife's and I read some sufi poetry as well. I met a shiite teacher and here is the report.
The sufi's say that mohammed and yeshua(jesus)
and moses all said the same thing. That to love god and to see the god in all is the goal.
They believe all you have to do is basically follow the ten commandments and be a good person
and you've got it.
They give a passing reference to the spirit being the breath but then move on to something else.
Typical.
They say that in all the three cases, mohammed,moses,and yeshua(jesus) if you just read what they wrote or said, you cant go wrong but it is what everyone said after that that is what makes all the wierdness.
example,the koran never mentions anything about women wearing those clothes, or all the other extremist type things that the so called fundamentalists insist on. If they were actually fundamentalist about what mohammed said rather than everyone elses two cents, they would be alright people instead of problems for the rest of us.
example2 Moses was against fathers and uncles marrying thier daughters and nieces.
Well, the torah, which is from some creative morons that were not moses, said its ok. Not only that, they rewrote the history to say that abraham or somebody big like that was drugged by his two daughters and they raped HIM! How likely is that?
To look at just the sayings of yeshua and then look around, it's like, how in the world did this christianity thing get like this?
It is all the two cents of others.
This is the point of the shiite sufi moslems I have met. I didn't expect them to be giving me this decent analysis.
But, seeing some of the human confusion is still not the indicator of an enlightened being, or a realized soul, or whatever it was that Bobby said he had never yet met.
So, in the search for a realized soul so I could tell Bobby what one was, I think I came up with the definition. But that can be some other thread.
Well, Joe Ji, The yoga freaks and contortionist society is big in western mass. So naturally I had to take a look.
The primary flaw is that besides the one marked 'typical' up above, is that the way they look at the power is very heartless.
Here is a glorious revelation from this crowd;
this is in the recent yoga journal (Bobby can confirm this from his subscription perhaps?).
'There is a special black stone no larger than a marble found in remote locations along the Gandaki river in Nepal. It is called Salagrama Sila and is reputed to heal any disease. When used during meditation, the result is an experience of profound love, bliss and happiness.
Drinking the water energetically charged by the salagrama sila is the best solution for the aids and cancer epidemic on the planet. This special stone from nepal has more healing power than all the ayurvedic remedies combined (thats like saying it's greater than zero-jim clone),and is like an ultimate homeopathic remedy (again), for all diseases. -Karunamayei, a spiritual teacher from (guess where?) India.
How about this little insult to the life--"when inhaleing and exhaleing are done without awareness of how they are hinged together, the breath flow is broken by hitches, gushes, and distortions."
sheesh! Oh yes, the mechanics of spirituality.
Maharaji shouldn't gripe, the power is not interested in people getting the story straight.
Or not for long. So who said we were to get 1,000
years of peace anyway? I am going to check but I'll bet it wasn't jesus. it was one of his guys.
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Date: Fri, Nov 28, 1997 at 14:45:54 (EST)
Poster: Bill is not
Email: not Hot for Bill!
To: not Bill
Subject: A pesky Jim clone (Re: pesky Jim clones)
Message:
Bill
whatever your name is
you are not one of those pesky Jim clones
i think even Jim would agree
that you are in a class by yourself
When are you going to finish your honeyMOON story?
as soon as CD writes his tao?
we are waiting to hear the truth here.
signed,
your admirer
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 01:17:43 (EST)
Poster: What's the deal with
Email: Double Occupancy
To: Monky Business
Subject: Larry the cook? (Re: pesky Jim clones)
Message:
Bill
whatever your name is
you are not one of those pesky Jim clones
i think even Jim would agree
that you are in a class by yourself
When are you going to finish your honeyMOON story?
as soon as CD writes his tao?
we are waiting to hear the truth here.
signed,
your admirer
Well shucks maharaji, thanks for that thumbs up.
I figured you were hanging out here once in a while.
Have you ever heard about larry the cook? He was not famous for his cooking, but he had one thing figured out in life,
All the guys in his monastary were perplexed by the odd
thing going on in the kitchen. There was this one guy who was happy! For christs sake what's with him? So they checked
him out so see if he had gone mad. He managed to convince them that he was experiencing the presence of god. Since that was such a revolutionary thing they made him a saint when he died and perhaps you have heard of the saint lawrence seaway. Make that the larry the cook seaway.
It is reported of him; 'He was never hasty or loitering,
but did each thing in it's season, with an even, uninterrupted composure and tranquility of spirit.'
He said 'The time of business does not with me differ from
the time of prayer, and in the noise and clatter of my kitchen, while several persons are calling for different things, I possess God in as great tranquillity as if I were
upon my knees at the rituals.'
And, 'those who have the gale of the holy spirit go forward even in sleep'
Why do I bring him up?
In his connection with his friend inside of him, it was him,
the spirit(breath), and the reality of a concious friend inside of him.
Which leads me to BURKES LAW #1. Which states that; Two things occupy the same space at the same time.
A wide chorus of voices through time say that a concious power that is friendly, (while being the employer of the devil-according to jesus), resides within us, and that it steers us as best as it can, with thoughts and feelings.
Our conscience.
Some say that the power sometimes grants an occasional
person (say jesus),the power to do some rule bending things.
Like fix the blind, walk on water, heal leprosy, ect.ect.
Or maybe the power is just a bit vulnerable to that kind of abuse.
Some say that the friendly power, is more in some people than in others. And that we should revere those people.
Say, his holiness pope johnpaulgeorgeringo.
Some say that this place is an obstacle course, and we are here to learn lessons we didn't learn 'last time'.
Some say, (like krishna), that we are supposed to 'Identify with the divine' and thereby reach the divine abode where we never return to this (I guess), booby prize location earth.
Some say that we are supposed to endlessly praise and glorify (whatever that means), the power, and hope to go somewhere else better. (again, the booby prize attitude.)
Some say we can't understand the power and it's wily
ways and just try to follow the directions of our local
god representatives and that the power is somewhere out there. You know, 'from a distance'.
Some say that THEY are the superiour power in person,
that they are to be obeyed and listened to as the mouth of the power on this earth. And that Larry the cook needs to
look to them for all the answers as to what that triangle
consists of. Instead of the triangle being larry, the feeling, and the friend inside, it becomes larry, devotion to the outside person, and the other person.
NOT a fair trade.
YOU figure it out, as long as you are special, and exalted,
you cannot escape the prison you are in.
Some say the power will assist us in the pursuit of our dreams, but what IS our dream? Hitler had a dream, and he
came damn close to manifesting it. He was steered inside to make a couple of blind errors that cost him all. But his single minded pursuit cost millions of lives.
YOUR single minded pursuit has at least one major error,
you think that it's ok for people to have you for the object of thier devotion, when you are keeping them from having that for the real friend inside.
By playing that role you limit and eliminate any true
relationship they could have with the sponsor of this life.
Just because it's a hindu tradition doesn't make it
any less wrong.
This place is the fantastic location, even in a depression.
Even in a war. Even in a kitchen.
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 01:27:44 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: Deena@cableregina.com
To: What's the deal with
Subject: Re: Larry the cook? (Re: pesky Jim clones)
Message:
Yah, I agree, cashing in on a feeling that has nothing to do with him, is a trick that a charlatan commits.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 17:58:24 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Everyone
Subject: One of M's favorite stories
Message:
Does anyone remember how M tells the story of the premie whose life is a mess because she use to practise Knowledge and then she thought she'd stop and see what happens? He's told this story with different twists through the years. Apparently she is in tears in front of him and her life is like a living hell. M's reaction? He smiles and says he tells her that if she leaves what does she expect to happen!
On the one hand he continually reassures people that the door is always open (can't be a cult then right, cause one is free to come and go) but every now then he tells this story so as to warn people of the true consequences.
I remember the audiences reaction...shivers sent through everyone. You know what it's like when he gets heavy. Not like the ol days but the new improved version of whipping. He speaks of his dad doing it physically fondly. He use to get verbally abuse in years gone by and if anyone wants that still the translated indian videos bear witness to it still. Most premies and aspirants I knew didn't prefer these videos though. Only a small percentage of the population does, I was told by the organizers. Felt special to be part of that crowd somehow. He always spoke so direct to the indian premies. Some enjoyed that others didn't.
But even today. At longer events. By the end of the 3 or so days he tends to get a little heavier. Premies sit still and upright in their chairs I noticed. They listen attentively even though the usual happy tone is gone and M looks stern. He is speaking to the heart though and he loves his premies...his blessings are for them. Not the aspirants or the public. He says, 'Blessings to all the premies"
Not to the ex-premies either. Not to anyone or everyone. Just to this elite group. To these he can raise his voice slightly and reprimand if he needs to. He is there master and they not unlike his humble servants that obey unquestioningly. I've never seen anyone leave during these times. I see trust. I see faith. They don't think his tone is arrogant or condescending when he mocks premies. They laugh at this point...welcome relief from how serious it's gotten.
These are vivid memories of the recent past. Not the crazy ol days. But recent days when he sat while premies clapped and begged him to dance to the devotional love songs about him were being played.
Will he dance this time in Dec? Will he speak sternly? Will he sound arrogant and condescending. Most premies expect to be blissed out so if he dances they will be overjoyed...why? Perhaps they don't even know themselves. And if they are uncomfortable with something he says or his attitude they will shrug this off to the 'Mind' that they should ignore. They will joke about their crazy mind.
Most will ignore their gut feelings. But a few courageous people will heed them. And they will not sweep under the rug their doubts. Thus will begin their journey.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 18:00:02 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Everyone
Subject: One of M's favorite stories
Message:
Does anyone remember how M tells the story of the premie whose life is a mess because she use to practise Knowledge and then she thought she'd stop and see what happens? He's told this story with different twists through the years. Apparently she is in tears in front of him and her life is like a living hell. M's reaction? He smiles and says he tells her that if she leaves what does she expect to happen!
On the one hand he continually reassures people that the door is always open (can't be a cult then right, cause one is free to come and go) but every now then he tells this story so as to warn people of the true consequences.
I remember the audiences reaction...shivers sent through everyone. You know what it's like when he gets heavy. Not like the ol days but the new improved version of whipping. He speaks of his dad doing it physically fondly. He use to get verbally abuse in years gone by and if anyone wants that still the translated indian videos bear witness to it still. Most premies and aspirants I knew didn't prefer these videos though. Only a small percentage of the population does, I was told by the organizers. Felt special to be part of that crowd somehow. He always spoke so direct to the indian premies. Some enjoyed that others didn't.
But even today. At longer events. By the end of the 3 or so days he tends to get a little heavier. Premies sit still and upright in their chairs I noticed. They listen attentively even though the usual happy tone is gone and M looks stern. He is speaking to the heart though and he loves his premies...his blessings are for them. Not the aspirants or the public. He says, 'Blessings to all the premies"
Not to the ex-premies either. Not to anyone or everyone. Just to this elite group. To these he can raise his voice slightly and reprimand if he needs to. He is there master and they not unlike his humble servants that obey unquestioningly. I've never seen anyone leave during these times. I see trust. I see faith. They don't think his tone is arrogant or condescending when he mocks premies. They laugh at this point...welcome relief from how serious it's gotten.
These are vivid memories of the recent past. Not the crazy ol days. But recent days when he sat while premies clapped and begged him to dance to the devotional love songs about him were being played.
Will he dance this time in Dec? Will he speak sternly? Will he sound arrogant and condescending. Most premies expect to be blissed out so if he dances they will be overjoyed...why? Perhaps they don't even know themselves. And if they are uncomfortable with something he says or his attitude they will shrug this off to the 'Mind' that they should ignore. They will joke about their crazy mind.
Most will ignore their gut feelings. But a few courageous people will heed them. And they will not sweep under the rug their doubts. Thus will begin their journey.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 18:06:54 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Re: One of M's favorite stories
Message:
Sorry, posted twice accidently. But while I'm here I'll add a part I left out. M once released a video in the past year that he had recalled within a few days of arrival. I happen to watch it before sending it back. No copies were to be made. It was a cosmic mistake.
Anyways, it was in Australia I believe. And boy was he steamed at alot of service people in it...he went on and on about how premies screwed up this in this country etc. etc. Wish I had made a copy. But I was too loyal to have done anything against his wishes.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 12:45:59 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: One of M's favorite stories
Message:
Yes, I heard about this angry speech he gave in Australia. A friend of mine (also an ex-premie) listened to it and said that he really sounded like he really disdained, even hated the premies, but they appeared to love it nonetheless. Apparently, he starts out talking about how he had a hard time getting landing permits in all the countries in which he needed to get them and then went on a tirade against the premies (service people) in charge of the event. She got the impression that he either REALLY hated his job as perfect master, or that he just really didn't like the premies, or people in general.
I recall lots of times in the past where he was really angry in what he said, although he was usually so incoherent that it was hard to understand why. I recall that satsang he gave at that Kissimee swamp we had to live in I think in 1980. That's the satsang in which he said that we didn't even have the right to look at him, because we were such slime in comparision to who he was, and that we certainly didn't even have the right to talk to him. He also said Maharaji created us and that we were too arrogant to understand that. He was really pissed about something, I don't know what. Maybe he ran out of cognac in that luxurious residence we built for him on the site, or maybe that air conditioned throne wasn't working properly, and he perspired a litte as we all fried in the hot Florida sun. Yes, I can see why he would be miffed.
Joe
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 09:36:51 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: JW
Subject: Thanks JW....Eee Gad! (Re: One of M's favorite stories)
Message:
Yes, I heard about this angry speech he gave in Australia. A friend of mine (also an ex-premie) listened to it and said that he really sounded like he really disdained, even hated the premies, but they appeared to love it nonetheless. Apparently, he starts out talking about how he had a hard time getting landing permits in all the countries in which he needed to get them and then went on a tirade against the premies (service people) in charge of the event. She got the impression that he either REALLY hated his job as perfect master, or that he just really didn't like the premies, or people in general.
I recall lots of times in the past where he was really angry in what he said, although he was usually so incoherent that it was hard to understand why. I recall that satsang he gave at that Kissimee swamp we had to live in I think in 1980. That's the satsang in which he said that we didn't even have the right to look at him, because we were such slime in comparision to who he was, and that we certainly didn't even have the right to talk to him. He also said Maharaji created us and that we were too arrogant to understand that. He was really pissed about something, I don't know what. Maybe he ran out of cognac in that luxurious residence we built for him on the site, or maybe that air conditioned throne wasn't working properly, and he perspired a litte as we all fried in the hot Florida sun. Yes, I can see why he would be miffed.
Joe
Thanks for sharing that story JW. Could you re-post it as a thread? I think it's so important to remember the way he treated premies. He may be more coherent now,(although that is debateable at times), but he still belittles and scorns service people and premies for inconviencing him. That's why premies literally shake sometimes when he calls them. They are scared and I've witnessed this with my own eyes. I've seen his Instructors shake with a worried brow and I've seen the same in the rushing to his side, right hand organizers too. It's frightening in itself.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 21:21:33 (EST)
Poster: b
Email: b
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Thanks JW....Eee Gad! (Re: One of M's favorite stories)
Message:
I recall too but maybe this thread is moving.
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 21:44:42 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: This darkened night
Message:
It is not a joy coming to the conclusion that Maharaji, The King of Kings, Lord of Hosts, Lord of the Universe, The Almighty God in human form, The Lord of Love, Protector of the Weary and the Weak, The Saviour of Mankind, The Second Coming, My Mother, Father, Brother and Friend, my All to me;
It is not a joy coming to the conclusion that Maharaji is NOT all of the above.
For those of us who gave our hearts,
For those of us who tried
Sincerely to devote ourselves,
Believing that he was the Lord.
For those who wept the tears of love
For one we saw as God,
For those of us who wanted
To tear out our very heart
And place it at his lotus feet
Because he was the perfect one,
Most radiant, most blessed
God of Love in human form.
For us, there is an empty space,
A shattered dream to come.
Where is our Lord this darkened night?
Where fall His footsteps in our world,
What hope our friends to give?
Pray God please help us all.
David Simpkiss
djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 22:29:09 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: This darkened night
Message:
Look inside yourself for a true experience of peace and joy.
That is still the old lesson to be relearned.
People have been debating, redefining and reinventing their understanding of this existence for 1000s of years.
Don't get depressed by the turmoil of the whole affair and the paradoxes.
Don't let Godel's theorem or the difficult search for explanations get you down.
The most imprtant miracle is that you are alive. Don't forget.
Take advantage of it. Keep on truckin.
Nightime can certainly be dark and cold and give rise to aprehension.
Hang tough and soon the sun will be rising again for you to enjoy.
CD
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Date: Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 08:16:36 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: This darkened night
Message:
This hope I offer here this morning David...that all those years weren't completely wasted. The years spent focused and completely devoted are a wonderful tool to use just as an athlete who can no longer train due to injury or age, soon discovers that the discipline was not wasted when he applies it to all other areas of his or her life.
What I'm speaking of here is the ability to take that devotion and for the first time in your life truely be free...the cage finally opened and freedom truly yours. Devoted to life without a middleman. Awe and wonder replaces the emptiness of the relationship once had. When you devote yourself to the moment now, the result is awe... and wonder of wonders your feeling of love isn't dependent on the master as you were programmed to believe. The peace, fulfillment and inner contentment are not dependent on Knowledge and Maharaji. I can say this because after 9 months without it all, this is my experience.
I offer these words of hope knowing full well that the pain you feel is real. Your experience of weeping tears of love for the one we saw as God... wanting to tear out our very heart and place it at his lotus feet...I couldn't have put it in better words myself.
This is the greatest so-called evil...to be spiritually raped. To put one's entire being in trust to one as their so-called saviour and have that trust betrayed. I felt like screaming...so I stood in -50 last Feb. screaming at the top of my lungs in an empty school yard, my tears literally freezing to my face. I felt such a rage that frightened me. I thought I was going mad. I wanted to die because the one person that I had dedicated my life to didn't know and even if he did, all he could offer me was not to doubt, not to trust my gut feelings, but to take his hand and follow him back into the cage of deception.
I woke up with panic attacks that I thought would never end, anxiety that I couldn't bear. But I did bear it and it did end. There is a song by the Tragically Hip that has a line...'we live to survive our paradoxes'. I am living proof.
I had to separate the message from the messanger. I took comfort in knowing there were others who understood, even if my husband didn't. Today I embrace life with it's ups and downs, not looking for detachment- a state of bliss. I feel alive like I never have. I feel a calm within me without any practise, master or belief system. I am in awe and wonder of this life. I feel love.
I don't know if any of this helps. When I felt hopeless and so very alone the darkness didn't withstand the light of the ex-premies and family love that reached out to me. I also called a person who is experienced in cults and was strengthened by the truth of what was happening to me.
There is a saying I like....it is darkest before the dawn...
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 17:02:47 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Happy Thanksgiving!
Message:
I just want to wish all the ex-premies and premies at this site a Happy Thanksgiving. I'm thankful for this site and the newsgroup because the discussion have really helped me work through a lot of issues I thought I had put behind me. You have all been a great help.
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 18:07:35 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Michael
Subject: Re: Happy Thanksgiving!
Message:
Happy Thanksgiving Michael. I feel I have alot to be thankful for too.
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Date: Fri, Nov 28, 1997 at 03:02:58 (EST)
Poster: Brer B
Email: the woods
To: Michael
Subject: Zip a dee do dah (Re: Happy Thanksgiving!)
Message:
I just want to wish all the ex-premies and premies at this site a Happy Thanksgiving. I'm thankful for this site and the newsgroup because the discussion have really helped me work through a lot of issues I thought I had put behind me. You have all been a great help.
Thanks to you too, whoda thunk weed end up here?
It's occasionally mind boggleing what happened.
I saw a cartoon that showed a gravestone that said '28 years of therapy and ALMOST fixed'
I am riding a wave as fast as i can out of here but I end up
looking to the left and right and saying -is my heart safe yet? if I don't look back will I keep from being freaked out? I invested my self in a way that is so total that I am
trying to lock in on a clear picture of what constitutes
the designed human beings viewpoint,actions and realizations.
I mean, this place took 16 to 18 billion years to manufacture, and so between me and the power, whats the real deal? To not be fractured, I need to walk on the sunny side and stay out of the past and get the clear picture of the life I am involved with here and know it's reccomended human operating instructions. I know that it's figure-out-able.
Luckily my life is really busy, and I feel the damn thing, and lots of god related stuff keeps coming my way.
And fun too.
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 13:43:50 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: nobody
Subject: test - please ignore this (Re: Happy Thanksgiving!)
Message:
test this out
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 09:55:36 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Meditation Techniques
Message:
I did it, at least for a few minutes, enough time to read Katie's post about copyright and M's secret meditation. What I'm talking about is that I finally found (through deja news) the newsgroup...I'm not sure if I have what I need to post yet and I'd l really like to read offline so I have a bit to learn yet. I'm excited.
Anyways, like Katie said..I've thought of it too. And it brought to mind one of my earlier introductions to Knowledge. I was living in a house shared by a bunch of hippies and their were two ex-premies...this was in 1975 I'm quessing. Anyways, they were really anti M. I wasn't, because I was an aspirant at the time. There hate for it all just fueled my love because I found them to be unsavory characters. I didn't understand that they had alot of anger to express that is justifiable given their insights,which I Ignored. Sorry Jeff and Mike...didn't realize you were speaking the truth and only trying to save me alot of pain.
But the point of my story is that I found out that one of these guys wifes was not a premie but they had showed her the meditation. She wasn't a very stable person so that was further proof for me that what premies had said - that M had said -was true. That without the master it just didn't work.
Ironic thing is that the premies I got to know in the years to follow, well as sweet and child like as they were, alot of them seemed unstable too.
But people I know thought I was a few short of a dozen as well during my premie days. They comment on how sane I am now. M always protected me from their opinions...he always emphasized that few can understand this path.
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Date: Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 15:20:14 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: ds@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Web site stuff revisited
Message:
For anyone who's interested, a few comments recently received at the http://www.ex-premie.org website...
_________________________
From DJAMES@raychem.com ....
I am sorry your experience with DLM has left you unhappy, hostile, and
disgruntled. I for one, never joined up with your "nemisis", but I did
join two other "cults" which both had "gurus", and as much as I hate
to say it, you folks are on the wrong track. This may spark a
controversial argument (with apparently much on your minds), in which
case I'll probably bail quickly (i'm a lover, not a fighter). There
actually is "enlightenment", "god", "heaven", "angels", "chakras",
"telepathy", and such. Whether maraji brought you there or is there is
another matter (i don't know one way or the other). I do know that
enlightenment is a state of being, not of wisdom, which is gained in
other ways (training, teaching, school of hard knocks). Maybe he was a
kid with this thing thrust upon him? One thing I do know is being
"enlightened" doesn't make you perfect. You premies expect friggin
perfection from a human? I've met folks I'm POSITIVE are enlightened
and they weren't perfect. You premies expect friggin perfection from a
human? But their chances of getting perfect were much better then
unenlightened folks, which is no chance at all, except they can become
enlightened, which does give them a chance. It is veeeery difficult to
transcend the "normal" state, evidenced by "40 days & nights in the
desert", "tales of wrestling the devil or demons", "dark night of the
soul", "classical path to enlightenment being schizophrenia", yada
yada. Mucho documentation. Yet it is ALL SO, so if maraji didn't take
you there don't mean there ain't no there. Trust me. As far as maraji
goes, my view is that the big cosmic washer takes care of it all and
if i got hosed in any way, shame on me if i didn't learn anything.
Forgive, forget, move on.
A word to the wise
_____________________________
And from Teeth444@v-wave.com ....
You people have nothing to gain by spreading these eroneous statements
of warped and demented perspectives and explaning what you think the
techniques are. Pushing on you eyes? Where'd you get that? Out of a
box of Cracker Jacks? Although I know this message will not be posted I
can tell you that having practised knowledge for 23 years has been
wonderous, and continues.
Get a life! Get in touch!
Keith
_____________________
And from Wakrob@aol.com
To whomever you are:
I have been out of the group for 16 years, and have often wondered what's
going on. I just stumbled on this website, and would love to communicate with
someone who has more recent information about the group. Are the changes the
premies (and the organization) have gone through good? or has it become
bizarre? Are the premies living in suspended animation? or are they involved
in life and the world? Do they still feel guilty about worldy ambitions
and/or pleasures? Is their mental health good? In 1981, when I left, I felt
like the people around me were in bad shape. M seened aloof. It was extremely
difficult to leave, but I did; the whole thing is still very close, however.
Any comments would be most appreciated.
Stevie Ray
_____________________
And from an anonymouse...
I hope that anyone who is fortunate enough to hear M speak can listen
openly and decide for themselves whether or not they are interested,
despite these half-truths you present. (It's not the '70's anymore,
ya'know!) As for the person(s) behind this website... No matter what you
think of Maharaji now, you made a promise not to show the tchniques of
Knowledge to anyone. This shows how much integrity and reliability YOU have!
Please withhold my name and address from this posting.
____________________________________
From Giorgio Pezzoli
it is sad that you turned this experience around against yourself. you are the one left on your own,
although I'm sure you do this from deep pain. I have not much to say, but if you could simply stop
being so self centered, and see how many people you can hurt and mislead with your site.
I just pray that only the ones who attracts this kind of energy such as yours, deserve to come here.
In all bad things, at least they have a chance to hear one way or another, of the most wonderful
person that walks on the face of this earth .
It's just too bad that your resentment has to propagate and carry so much that isn't necessary.
May you find the courage to undo what you have done.
GIORGIO
____________________________________
And finally, from France (or could it be the Cameroons?)... thrace@CAM.ORG writes;
Est - il possible d'avoir des corespondant français pour pouvoir
m'expliqué ou m'aidé
Je connait la vie , mais..............
____________________
David
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Date: Tues, Nov 25, 1997 at 16:32:45 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: David
Subject: Re: Web site stuff revisited
Message:
Cool...thanks David!
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 15:18:36 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: ds@ex-premie.org
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Web site stuff revisited
Message:
The http://www.ex-premie.org web site seems to be attracting interest from a few foreign climes of late. This was received today. It came in three parts so it may be out of order. Can anyone translate?
Cuando se despiertas en la madrugada y estan absolutamente solos con su
almoada en que piensas? donde queda tu pequeño ego? cuan grande e
importante te sientes? a donde esperas llegar?
Solo somos un container de huesos, sangre, moco, carne y detritus? habrá
algo mas? o acaso hitler tenia razon
Part 2....
Cuando se despiertas en la madrugada y estan absolutamente solos con su
almoada en que piensas? donde queda tu pequeño ego? cuan grande e
importante te sientes? a donde esperas llegar?
Solo somos un container de huesos, sangre, moco, carne y detritus? habrá
algo mas? o acaso hitler tenia razon
And part 3...
Un día nacimos, nos dieron un nombre, estudianmos, crecimos, nos
casamos, tenemos desendencia y ahi estamos, cuan importante somos,
leimos tantos libros, creimos tantas cosas y cuando alguien llega y te
dice que todo esta dentro de ti, no le creemos, nos burlamos y gastamos
tanta energia en que? cuanto perdiste querido ex, algunos o muchos
dolares o solo un poco de polvo de tus zapatos, bueno te sugiero eso
agarra tus pertenencias y sacudelas que no quede ni una particula de
polvo y camina hasta la esquina, da un grito y sientete feliz a lo mejor
mañana será otro día y podras emprender el camino de tu pequeña vida,
buscando que alguien te escuche el el ciberespacio.
The only word I slightly recognise is the last one! Is Marino Mrquez for us or against us?
David
P.S. There's an interesting Journey just popped out of ciberspacio today. You can read it at http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/j_greig.htm.
P.P.S. Don't blame me, I'm just the messenger.
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 15:30:49 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: ds@ex-premie.org
To: anyone
Subject: Re: Web site stuff revisited
Message:
There was a way of writing this stuff so just one click and you'd be there. Trouble is, I've forgotten how to do it! Has anyone seen hide or hair of Scott? He knows the magic spells. Scott....
... and when are you going to let me redesign this little area Scott? I thought I'd seen the last of your little tableau with a mastachioed Californian (you?) pointing out BigM on the wall!
And P.P.P.S... has everyone given up on the newsgroup? Do you think we should leave some kind of forwarding address telling the paperboy that we've moved to The Forum II?
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 15:47:54 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: David
Subject: Re: Web site stuff revisited
Message:
Hi David -
I didn't want to say anything but since you've brought it up, PLEASE get rid of the logo if you can... (no offense to Scott, I hope!) Also, I think some people (Rick and David Simpkiss) are still posting exclusively on the newsgroup. I left another message on there telling about this forum, but I know that David Simpkiss hasn't been able to access the ex-premie site, so perhaps he cannot access the forum either.
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Date: Wed, Nov 26, 1997 at 18:25:40 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: ds@ex-premie.org
To: David
Subject: Re: Web site stuff revisited
Message:
Try clicking here.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 00:41:53 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: Web site stuff revisited
Message:
The first 2 parts are identical. The poster is a Spanish-speaking Mili, or a philosopher - since MJ isn't referred to in the posts. Mostly it's just posing questions like "what do you think about when you're alone with yourself?", "are we just meat and bone?", and "perhaps Hitler was right..." Part 3 is more of the same. Since this person doesn't write English, I have to wonder if he/she is even aware of what web page is being posted to :)
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Date: Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 03:40:05 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Web site stuff revisited
Message:
Brian, you might just translate, rather than interpret, and let everyone interpret for themselves.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 06:02:02 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: ds@ex-premie.org
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Web site stuff revisited
Message:
Hi Katie...
I've redesigned the page but I can't get through to Scott and he has the keys to the magic kingdom. Click here to
see the alternative design.%00 It's no masterpiece but I think it's an improvement. It should also be faster to download because there's only one image. What do you think?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 08:17:19 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Web site stuff revisited
Message:
Brian, you might just translate, rather than interpret, and let everyone interpret for themselves.
...lemme guess... You don't view "translate" and "interpret" as having the same meaning, right?
BTW, this is translating. It just LOOKS like interpreting because they both share the same number of vowels is all. I will revert to actual interpreting in future posts, of course, since that's the kind of person I am. [shrug]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 11:53:36 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Web site stuff revisited
Message:
Brian -- be fair. You wrote: << The poster is a Spanish-speaking Mili, or a philosopher >> This is not translation. And even though you sorta-kinda-translated more-or-less-some-of-the-gist of what the person wrote... be fair, be accurate. Why not a simple verbatim translation; you can always add your editorial commentary at the end; but then at least you will have an objective presentation of who is saying what.
This is an example of undermining your own cause; if "expremies" do not hold themselves to the same standards to which they hold "premies" then after a while their credibility will be nil. If it seems I am making a big deal over a small posting, it is only for the sake of clarification, in the bigger picture: if your perspectives are sound, then they can stand on their own -- there is no need to mock those of others.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 14:19:35 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: Web site stuff revisited
Message:
Much better! And it also harmonizes with the rest of the site. I'll be glad to see the last of that blond, not to mention the bizarre picture that he is pointing too.
Thanks,
Katie
P.S.Re Scott - it's a big holiday today here in the US (a celebration of colonialism which results in many family fights - sorry, Michael!) so maybe he's out of town for a few days.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 15:35:17 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: ds@ex-premie.org
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Web site stuff revisited
Message:
It seems I may have been a little unfair by highlighting Dave Greigs' reminiscences about a steady stream of knickerless sisters making their way to BigM's quarters. Dave writes to set the record straight...
______________________
Just to respond to your blurb in regard to my "journey" which you included in
your website:
I was not implying that the sisters that went upstairs at the ashram in
Hardwar were pantyless in ordetr to serve GM sexually. I was just stating
that generally a lot of sisters did not wear panties, and I dug the effect.
Also, I'm not writing to this organization to complain and whine about any
percieved abuse by the DLM. I thought it was a great experience and I'm glad
I had it. For those people still involved, it's probably something they just
have to go through. The general population does not malign or ridicule
people who choose divinity as their vocation. How are priests or nuns any
different than a cultist? Maybe nuns don't wear panties either. The Vatican
must be one of the richest organizations in the world. Who mocks the Pope?
At that time in my life, the DLM probably saved me from myself. It was easy
to leave, because I was ready to go. Now I'm happily married and have 4
wonderful children. Got a shitty job though.
__________________
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Date: Thurs, Nov 27, 1997 at 17:41:58 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Web site stuff revisited
Message:
Brian -- be fair. You wrote: << The poster is a Spanish-speaking Mili, or a philosopher >> This is not translation. And even though you sorta-kinda-translated more-or-less-some-of-the-gist of what the person wrote... be fair, be accurate. Why not a simple verbatim translation; you can always add your editorial commentary at the end; but then at least you will have an objective presentation of who is saying what.
Mea culpa.
Translation: "my fault".
Interpretation: "I screwed-up bigtime, but wanna
downplay it by switching to Italian".
I musta been asleep not to even notice what thread you posted your interpret/translate thingy to. Thought you were commenting on my posting style.
High school Spanish was a few years back [understatement] and I don't remember all them verbs and stuff. I also detected expressions present in the post that probably wouldn't translate at all without interpreting, and I lack that sort of familiarity with the language.
What I was able to translate led me to suspect that Mili has moved to Spain. I am not accusing the poster of being a flagrant mover, however :)
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Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 at 16:31:30 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: Web site stuff revisited
Message:
Hi David - I would like to make a comment about the women (I HATE the term "sister" - wonder why?) who were not wearing underwear in India. I don't think this was done for reasons of sexual titillation or because the "sisters" were "hot to trot" (as Dave Grieg said). For one thing, a lot of Indian women who dress traditionally (in saris) don't wear underwear because it is so hot there. For another, not wearing underwear does help prevent certain kinds of fungal infections (men get these too.) And lastly, the women who were going upstairs to see GMJ probably didn't realize that Dave Grieg was looking up their skirts!
P.S. We don't call underwear "knickers" here in the U.S....
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