Ex-Premie.Org

Forum II Archive # 1

From: Nov 15, 1997

To: Dec 9, 1997

Page: 3 Of: 5


Bobby -:- Appreciation -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 19:18:18 (EST)
___Blankety Blank Mike -:- Re: Appreciation -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 19:47:29 (EST)
___Lord David of Camelot -:- Re: Appreciation -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 21:44:50 (EST)

Wrestling Mike -:- Revealing it all? -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 15:45:45 (EST)
___private parts of the -:- Naked Truth -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 16:51:19 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 19:32:27 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 19:40:32 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 20:05:21 (EST)
___Her Majesty's Subject -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 20:41:30 (EST)
___Huston Smith -:- 40 years of searching -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 20:54:47 (EST)
___I hearby dub thee -:- Sir David--Duke of Earl -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 21:01:15 (EST)
___Mike -:- But I don't go all the way on a 1st date! -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 21:46:04 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: But I don't go all the way on a 1st date! -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 22:19:14 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: But I don't go all the way on a 1st date! -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 23:02:43 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: But I don't go all the way on a 1st date! -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 23:24:01 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 10:32:16 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 11:06:57 (EST)
___John -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 13:38:10 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 14:07:42 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: But I don't go all the way on a 1st date! -:- Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 14:52:35 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: But I don't go all the way on a 1st date! -:- Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 15:52:01 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: But I don't go all the way on a 1st date! -:- Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 19:38:01 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 21:02:45 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: But I don't go all the way on a 1st date! -:- Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 21:25:48 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Fri, Dec 5, 1997 at 11:53:29 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Fri, Dec 5, 1997 at 12:10:31 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Fri, Dec 5, 1997 at 12:57:12 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Fri, Dec 5, 1997 at 13:10:46 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Fri, Dec 5, 1997 at 14:35:16 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 03:23:36 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 16:10:07 (EST)
___Katie -:- Remember the name? -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 19:46:27 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 22:49:09 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 02:26:28 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Revealing it all? -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 13:43:31 (EST)

David -:- And another thing... -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 14:47:59 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: And another thing... -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 22:29:14 (EST)

David -:- More Web posts -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 12:34:06 (EST)
___El Sid -:- Peter's note in english -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 18:53:34 (EST)

bftb -:- Intent -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 10:53:55 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Intent -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 11:56:29 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Intent -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 12:24:30 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Intent -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 13:00:13 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Intent -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 13:25:14 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Intent -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 13:54:47 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Intent -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 15:42:04 (EST)
___Dogbert -:- Re: Intent -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 17:08:19 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Intent -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 18:12:25 (EST)
___dogbert -:- Re: Intent -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 20:08:19 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Intent -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 20:13:33 (EST)
___dogbert -:- Re: Intent -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 21:08:14 (EST)
___dogbert -:- Re: Intent -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 21:22:58 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Intent -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 23:11:52 (EST)
___dogbert -:- Re: Intent -:- Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 22:48:01 (EST)

David Simpkiss -:- The master & meditation -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 01:17:35 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: The master & meditation -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 03:03:55 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: The master & meditation -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 07:46:45 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: The master & meditation -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 11:01:15 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: The master & meditation -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 11:26:28 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: The master & meditation -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 12:05:47 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: The master & meditation -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 14:23:41 (EST)
___David Simpkiss -:- Re: The master & meditation -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 14:48:09 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: The master & meditation -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 14:58:51 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: The master & meditation -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 16:39:57 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: The Word -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 16:53:57 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: The Word -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 18:45:30 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: The master & meditation -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 22:45:45 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: The master & meditation -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 23:16:58 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: The master & meditation -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 23:24:45 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: The Word -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 23:33:33 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: The Word -:- Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 00:17:30 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: The Word -:- Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 10:57:57 (EST)

Deena -:- Sucking up -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 20:33:56 (EST)

Deena -:- Sucking up -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 20:35:10 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Sucking up -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 20:37:26 (EST)
___Anonomousie -:- Sucking up -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 23:44:46 (EST)

Deena -:- 'his his' ? -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 19:22:50 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: 'his his' ? -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 20:13:18 (EST)

JW -:- New Premie.com -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 18:17:27 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: New Premie.com -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 19:19:19 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: New Premie.com -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 22:40:43 (EST)
___b -:- Re: New Premie.com -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 23:32:56 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: New Premie.com -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 23:35:25 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: New Premie.com -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 01:40:24 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: New Premie.com -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 11:44:47 (EST)

Her Majesty's Minion -:- The things he said -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 16:10:27 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: The things he said -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 16:41:08 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: The things he said -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 17:23:13 (EST)

Bobby -:- 'loaded last 50 messages' is wrong -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 23:03:40 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: 'loaded last 50 messages' is wrong -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 00:34:00 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: 'loaded last 50 messages' is wrong -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 17:01:01 (EST)

Brian -:- You are confused, Mili... -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 22:37:42 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: You are confused, Mili... -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 01:27:40 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: You are confused, Mili... -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 07:16:12 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: You are confused, Mili... -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 07:29:37 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: You are confused, Mili... -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 14:54:27 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: You are confused, Mili... -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 15:44:58 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: You are confused, Mili... -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 18:17:46 (EST)
___Deena -:- Annie...I'm sorry -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 19:13:36 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: You are confused, Mili... -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 20:05:56 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: You are confused, Mili... -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 20:10:57 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: You are confused -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 21:12:55 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: You are confused -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 21:33:46 (EST)

Annie -:- About Larry the Cook -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 22:29:25 (EST)
___white rabbit -:- Annie the chef -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 01:10:47 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: About Larry the Cook -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 08:11:18 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: About Larry the Cook -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 09:51:52 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: About Larry the Cook -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 13:43:10 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: About Larry the Cook -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 14:06:46 (EST)

Yves Pageau -:- Dear Jim Heller -:- Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 15:20:57 (EST)
___oh that naughty -:- beezeljim -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 12:55:07 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: beezeljim -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 13:30:26 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Dear Jim Heller -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 14:31:34 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: beezeljim -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 14:49:30 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: beezeljim -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 15:51:18 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: beezeljim -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 16:08:06 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: beezeljim -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 19:40:00 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Dear Jim Heller -:- Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 19:52:46 (EST)
___beezilbub -:- beezeljim -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 00:08:24 (EST)
___dear me -:- Dear ?Jim Heller -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 00:23:48 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Dear ?Jim Heller -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 08:38:15 (EST)
___is there or isn't there a -:- Vulnerable Jimmykins? -:- Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 11:21:40 (EST)



Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 19:18:18 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Appreciation
Message:
I just want to say that I appreciate the quality of the posts (and the posters) happening in this forum in recent days. The expressions are often genuine, heart-felt and free of insult.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 19:47:29 (EST)
Poster: Blankety Blank Mike
Email: From a Blankety Place
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Appreciation
Message:
Bobby - what da blankety blank blank are you blankety blank blank talking about??? Just playing :)
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 21:44:50 (EST)
Poster: Lord David of Camelot
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Appreciation
Message:
I wonder how Guru Maharaj Ji appreciates it? I look forward to the proposed interview with Jim or someone of that ilk. Dave.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 15:45:45 (EST)
Poster: Wrestling Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Revealing it all?
Message:
Ok, Here's what I've been wrestling with... should I spill the beans on what I've learned and currently practice or keep my promise. On the one hand, it would most likely benefit those who'd use it. On the other hand, I worry that It would compromise the current energy build-up that I've invested in it (sounds campy however, I'm a bit greedy for the bliss). One thing I've considered is that every technique of meditiation, including knowledge techniques can be found in books. Another thing I've considered is that In any other old path such as Zen... people are impressed and judge the person who demonstrates their mastery of the techniques/path and not by the techniques themselves. Ramakrishna and Vivekanand both provided techniques openly in their public addresses. People were blown away by the effect the meditation had on these guys... by the darshan experiences their love for the inner lover had on them... not the techniques. Ramakrishna used to get so blissed out during satsang... he'd just fall out literally... into samamdhi. His diciples would catch him much like a rock star is caught when they jump off stage. When I first heard that... I thought, what an act, and what a sight that must have been! Harder to follow than a kids or dog act. However, when I read their stuff and eyewitness accounts of them... whew! What bliss babies!!! Some of the old Mahatmas from Shri Hans time were teaching nine techniques that mostly came from the Brahmanand Gita... more specifically: Yagyas(sacrifice) and Pujas(celebrations) chapters. The Brahmanand Gita even states that the Gita itself is the teacher... not any one human. That it was handed down from Shri Paramahansa Brahmanand Maharaj who'd been inspired from his Samadhi to record his experiences for all time because the Gods wished him to do this as service for humanity! Old story... another book. The Gita mainly focuses the Chela (student) to worship the Sat Purusha within who is the true Paramahansa. It goes onto to say that this true Paramahansa exists in all creatures and in all things much like water prevades the ocean and we're only salt dolls in it. Yah, yah... I know... we've heard that all before. Tell us another one! The interesting thing is that the Gita approaches the inner true Paramahansa as a lover that we become seduced with and seduce in return. Much like falling in love with your true self. It states that the reason we were created is to be a unique lover and love experience of the Paramahansa. The Gita reminded me what Swami Muktananda said: "Pray to yourself, meditate on yourself and realize yourself!" The main thing it stressed is that no one person has the power to connect you to what you are already connected to within yourself. It is life itself. It also states much the way Krishna stated to Arjuna... that all forms of worship come to him (Krishna). Can you imagine what the premies of that time thought when he stated that? However, according to the Bhagavad Gita... Krishna manifested his power in no uncertain terms to Arjuna. Ok, that was then, this is now. One of my main concerns again is taking on any responsibility for offering these things on the air. It's kinda (in my view) a catch22... if you offer it, you have to maintain it for whoever you provide it to in the sence that if they have any physical or psychological problems with it... you could windup sued. I wonder if GMJ has experienced anyone trying to sue him for making them crazy or physically impared as a result of practicing his method?
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 16:51:19 (EST)
Poster: private parts of the
Email: what weight class?
To: Wrestling Mike
Subject: Naked Truth (Re: Revealing it all?)
Message:
If you have a favorable outlook on revealing it then you can probably do that without feeling a loss or waste. I am sure there are at least a few of us that will give it a fair go. People judge the giver first, but only to see what is the effect over time on another. To give themselves hope for a good return. I'm sure that ramakrishna and vivekanand were stuffed to the gills with concepts that wouldn't stand up in a harsh light, but the idea of them getting a real jackpot by loving the freind inside sounds like a winning approach. If I should feel for the sat prusha within, that is the true paramhansa, I need the english translation please. Salt dolls is a good analogy. Maybe Muktananda would have used a different word if he knew english better, or he really meant yourself. I know khrishna said 'identify with the divine', but when Indians do that, they usually set themselves up as people whom others can worship, adore, serve, ect. Because they are 'empty' and the devotee can have god in form through them. Classic hinduism. As soon as I see myself as something to pray to,meditate on and realize, I am ignoreing the power that is watching me and is going 'hey buddy, what about me?' Jesus said 'my father and I are one' but that was pretty late in the game and he was wielding the power big time. Just 'identifying' with the power does not make me and it one. I don't know what Annie is talking about with the 'magian sense' I'm sure it makes sense but I hope she explains it. You seem to say two different things in your post but it probably is just the hindi/english translations? If the gita is the teacher, what is the deal with the title swami?. Maybe muktananda shouldn't be paired with viv and ramakrishna. These two sound like they stepped out of the hindu trap. All forms of worship come to (ahem) krishna, but the problem is that I have only a short time here. I read today somewhere that Bill Ghraham the preacher was asked what was the most important thing he has learned in hi life and he said that 'life is short'. Not what I expected him to say certainly. I wonder if his next comment was that ole line 'love god with all your heart and everybody else for that matter.' or something like that. But how to love or feel the best shareing inside is what I think your post is about. So If you are haveing some success in that department, we all know your name now, and mine is Skiing Bill, please feel free to risk eternal damnation for our sake.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 19:32:27 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Wrestling Mike
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
Mike, I guess I'm not really clear on why you might want to reveal the meditation techniques and under what circumstances. Are you talking about teaching meditation to others, like a meditation teacher, or are you talking about putting them on the internet or something more wide-ranging. It has never occurred to me to teach the meditation techniques I learned in my knowledge session to anyone else, because I don't think of them in and or themselves as particularly valuable and that they really are available elsewhere anyway if someone is looking for learning meditation techniques. I think the whole concept of "revelation" is a myth, although it is attractive to people brought up to believe in saviors, messiahs and great spiritual leaders. I'm not denying that those people exist, but I don't think any of them have a corner on certain techniques for "going inside" and M certainly doesn't. As you mentioned, the techniques he reveals he probably has never really practiced and they are just an compliation of a whole bunch of techniques handed down in several traditions. Joe
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 19:40:32 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
Joe - I meant putting them out on the web not teaching them. It's just a force of habit not to tell anyone exacting how to do it and after 20+ years or so... it's well ingrained. Like any habit... it's hard to break :)
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 20:05:21 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
I for one am quite interested in what these techniques are, so I would heartily welcome anything you have to share. Please do so, but only if you feel complete with your experience. As I have said, I am also very interested in the perspectives you are offering here.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 20:41:30 (EST)
Poster: Her Majesty's Subject
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
Well Mike, if you have any doubt about putting the other techniques on the net I would urge you not to. I would rather live in ignorance than allow someone to do something they had reservations about. You have said that the techniques are written in full in certain books. That is enough. If there are any amongst us who are sufficiently interested in learning them, we can look for them ourselves. I was very interested in your stories about Rama Krishna, the man mad for God. I heard a few Mahatmas talking about him in the seventies. The one thing that meditation has shown me is love that is inside me which I also feel for others. I think the reason for us being here is no know love and erhaps increase that love. In my life the love of my three young daughters overwhelms me at times. I love them so dearly and they love me. It is sincere love. And yet I have sometimes felt love and overwhelming compassion for all people and creatures I come into contact with. It feels then that the compassion of God comes into my heart. Please don't feel the need to do anything against your better judgement. Your welfare is just as important as ours. Dave.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 20:54:47 (EST)
Poster: Huston Smith
Email: BB
To: WWF
Subject: 40 years of searching (Re: Revealing it all?)
Message:
Huston has this to say after wandering through many groups and practices. He likes to say this 5 times a day to reline himself with his viewpoint. upon awakening,noon,midafternoon,sunset, and at retireing. Praise be to allah creator of the worlds the merciful the compassionate ruler of the day of judgement thee we do worship and thee we do ask for aid. It is rather, an intuitive awareness of things a discernment of the way things are. what could be more important or interesting than that? So beyond the minimal payoff of knowing where you are, the payoff of orientation, if where you are turns out to be breathtakingly beautiful, how much greater the reward that comes from knowing, seeing that. Even practical dealings call for knowing the lay of the land,so to speak. Orientation, life requires it if it is to be lived well. And orientation derives from knowing the nature of the universe. The nature of the universe is that absolute perfection rules. The universe is perfect. The chief reason I accept it is that it conforms to the winnowed wisdom of the human race. It's thier convergent vision of the ultimate reality. What do you experience when you 'intuitively discern' the perfection of things? Something like Plato's experience when he said, 'First a shudder runs through you and then the old awe steals over you.' I wouldn't mind stopping with that, but other sensations can be added. Excitement,exhilaration, exaltation, confidence, selflessness, and compassion, peace. Beware the differences that blind us to the unity that binds us.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 21:01:15 (EST)
Poster: I hearby dub thee
Email: the palace
To: Her Majesty's Subject
Subject: Sir David--Duke of Earl (Re: Revealing it all?)
Message:
I think it ended up getting posted on the master/meditation thread
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 21:46:04 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: Shy Mike
To: Sir David of Prem
Subject: But I don't go all the way on a 1st date! (Re: Revealing it all?)
Message:
I just described the machinery... didn't tell ya where the keys are. Gosh, I feel like I'm on my first date not wanting to "go all the way!"
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 22:19:14 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mike
Subject: Re: But I don't go all the way on a 1st date! (Re: Revealing it all?)
Message:
I just described the machinery... didn't tell ya where the keys are. Gosh, I feel like I'm on my first date not wanting to 'go all the way!' Well, you did call the thread "Revealing it All", didn't you, Mike? Seriously, I like what Bill said "feel free to risk eternal damnation for our sakes". We all know what the threat of THAT feels like, so perhaps we should table the discussion of Mike's nine techniques for a while... Actually, I've developed such an aversion to "knowledge" at this point that I'd rather hear about Mike's adventures in India and other places than about the techniques.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 23:02:43 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mike
Subject: Re: But I don't go all the way on a 1st date! (Re: Revealing it all?)
Message:
If you feel uncomfortable about revealing these techniques, why not wait until the second or third date? We'll all respect you in the morning.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 23:24:01 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: AndaRacecaranand.com
To: Michael
Subject: Re: But I don't go all the way on a 1st date! (Re: Revealing it all?)
Message:
If you feel uncomfortable about revealing these techniques, why not wait until the second or third date? We'll all respect you in the morning. Well... I'm a virgin at this..., so I want it to be special! Would you buy me a Rolls Royce and a house in Malibu, and an Airplane, and a fire truck, and a whistle, and a choo-choo, and a, and a, and a... ? :)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 10:32:16 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
... As you mentioned, the techniques he reveals he probably has never really practiced... Joe I think just this one statement is indicative of just how crazy all your other theories are. - Mili
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Date: Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 11:06:57 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
... As you mentioned, the techniques he reveals he probably has never really practiced... Joe I think just this one statement is indicative of just how crazy all your other theories are. - Mili Mili, Yes,JW is speculating,as I think he makes clear.This bothers you so I'm thinking that maybe you KNOW otherwise.If so;please share it.As far as I know,Maharaji meditated when he was younger.I don't think that he's discussed what his personal meditation habits are/aren't (publicly)for a long time now. I'm here to learn, so if you could share what you know his meditation habits to be I'd be most appreciative. thanks
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Date: Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 13:38:10 (EST)
Poster: John
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
... As you mentioned, the techniques he reveals he probably has never really practiced... Joe I think just this one statement is indicative of just how crazy all your other theories are. - Mili Mili, Yes,JW is speculating,as I think he makes clear.This bothers you so I'm thinking that maybe you KNOW otherwise.If so;please share it.As far as I know,Maharaji meditated when he was younger.I don't think that he's discussed what his personal meditation habits are/aren't (publicly)for a long time now. I'm here to learn, so if you could share what you know his meditation habits to be I'd be most appreciative. thanks We meditate to be with God, so why would God have to meditate?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 14:07:42 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: John
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
... As you mentioned, the techniques he reveals he probably has never really practiced... Joe I think just this one statement is indicative of just how crazy all your other theories are. - Mili Mili, Yes,JW is speculating,as I think he makes clear.This bothers you so I'm thinking that maybe you KNOW otherwise.If so;please share it.As far as I know,Maharaji meditated when he was younger.I don't think that he's discussed what his personal meditation habits are/aren't (publicly)for a long time now. I'm here to learn, so if you could share what you know his meditation habits to be I'd be most appreciative. thanks We meditate to be with God, so why would God have to meditate? To humour the humans
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Date: Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 14:52:35 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mike
Subject: Re: But I don't go all the way on a 1st date! (Re: Revealing it all?)
Message:
If you feel uncomfortable about revealing these techniques, why not wait until the second or third date? We'll all respect you in the morning. Well... I'm a virgin at this..., so I want it to be special! Would you buy me a Rolls Royce and a house in Malibu, and an Airplane, and a fire truck, and a whistle, and a choo-choo, and a, and a, and a... ? :) I've got the cutest little Krishna outfit with just a darling little crown just for you!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 15:52:01 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: Givememoreanand.com
To: Michael
Subject: Re: But I don't go all the way on a 1st date! (Re: Revealing it all?)
Message:
If you feel uncomfortable about revealing these techniques, why not wait until the second or third date? We'll all respect you in the morning. Well... I'm a virgin at this..., so I want it to be special! Would you buy me a Rolls Royce and a house in Malibu, and an Airplane, and a fire truck, and a whistle, and a choo-choo, and a, and a, and a... ? :) I've got the cutest little Krishna outfit with just a darling little crown just for you! Oh, I forgot..., do you know any airline stewardesses???
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Date: Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 19:38:01 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: findyerowngirl
To: Mike
Subject: Re: But I don't go all the way on a 1st date! (Re: Revealing it all?)
Message:
Ah, sheesh! Uh, no, no stewardess. Sorry. Maybe you can be the celibate perfect master :-)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 21:02:45 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
I recall sitting in on a knowledge session in 1974 in which Mahatma Vijayanand (which I think translates to "the conquerer of bliss" or "the blissful conquerer") said that M didn't have to meditate and, by the way, Mahatma Ji didn't have to meditate anymore either. I was duly impressed. However, Vijayanand split from M and became his own guru with his girlfriend after he got pissed because Maharaji made him bag nuts at Rainbow Grocery in Denver for about six months. I have not idea where he is now. Mishler also said M didn't know enough about the meditation techniques that he was supposedly revealing to people to be able to answer questions about them. Perhaps he has brushed up on those details in the last 25 years or so. Joe
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Date: Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 21:25:48 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email:
To: Michael
Subject: Re: But I don't go all the way on a 1st date! (Re: Revealing it all?)
Message:
Celibrate Perfect Master??? But of course, I always celebrate :)
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Date: Fri, Dec 5, 1997 at 11:53:29 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
I recall sitting in on a knowledge session in 1974 in which Mahatma Vijayanand (which I think translates to 'the conquerer of bliss' or 'the blissful conquerer') said that M didn't have to meditate and, by the way, Mahatma Ji didn't have to meditate anymore either. I was duly impressed. However, Vijayanand split from M and became his own guru with his girlfriend after he got pissed because Maharaji made him bag nuts at Rainbow Grocery in Denver for about six months. I have not idea where he is now. Mishler also said M didn't know enough about the meditation techniques that he was supposedly revealing to people to be able to answer questions about them. Perhaps he has brushed up on those details in the last 25 years or so. Joe What were your experiences in meditation, JW? Did you do at least an hour a day for the nine years that you were in the ashram? Did you like it? Why did you go at it for nine years, anyway? Was it because everybody else was doing it, or what?
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Date: Fri, Dec 5, 1997 at 12:10:31 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
However, Vijayanand split from M and became his own guru with his girlfriend after he got pissed because Maharaji made him bag nuts at Rainbow Grocery in Denver for about six months. I have not idea where he is now. Shortly after Vijayanad split from Maharaji I went down with a female friend of mine who had been close with Vijay (don't know how close) to Washington DC. and spent the weekend with Vijay and some others. Vijay was busy working on his "translation" of the Bhagavad Gita. I found this translation process interesting to say the least. Vijay was sitting with about 10 different translations of the Bhagavad Gita open at the same time. He would read a sloka (verse) out of one version and then see how the various other editions phrased it. He would play around with the words for awhile, then settle on what sounded best to him and write it down. He seemed quite full of himself that he was doing his own "translation". Seems there were a few devotees of his present in the apartment.
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Date: Fri, Dec 5, 1997 at 12:57:12 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
Bobby, do you know if Vijay ever revealed meditation techniques himself? I recall someone showed me a flyer in Denver in which he was offering some kind of meditation instruction. Interesting about the translation. Sounds like it was a very slow process. Wonder if he ever finished.
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Date: Fri, Dec 5, 1997 at 13:10:46 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
Bobby, do you know if Vijay ever revealed meditation techniques himself? I recall someone showed me a flyer in Denver in which he was offering some kind of meditation instruction. Interesting about the translation. Sounds like it was a very slow process. Wonder if he ever finished. I don't if he was. Seems to me I heard he was, but just as a rumor. He wasn't revealing techniques while I was in his apartment in Washington.
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Date: Fri, Dec 5, 1997 at 14:35:16 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
... As you mentioned, the techniques he reveals he probably has never really practiced... Joe I think just this one statement is indicative of just how crazy all your other theories are. - Mili Mili, Yes,JW is speculating,as I think he makes clear.This bothers you so I'm thinking that maybe you KNOW otherwise.If so;please share it.As far as I know,Maharaji meditated when he was younger.I don't think that he's discussed what his personal meditation habits are/aren't (publicly)for a long time now. I'm here to learn, so if you could share what you know his meditation habits to be I'd be most appreciative. thanks Well, like the saying goes, 'It takes a thief to know a thief'. To me its obvious that Maharaji knows what he is talking about because I have had quite deep and penetrating inner experiences with the Knowledge, myself. And there are the photographs in magazines that clearly show him with his eyes closed, meditating. I remember a picture on a cover of a magazine that is particularly striking - Maharaji has his head tilted a little back, with eyes closed, and is obviously experiencing some kind of exctasy. Also, as someone (Bobby, I think) has mentioned, I too have too seen him on numerous ocassions, at satsang programmes to close his eyes and go inside for a few moments before beginning to speak. It is hard to imagine him giving Holy Breath in darshan and not meditating while doing it. The meditation can also easily be done at any time, actively, with eyes open, so I pretty much suspect that was what Maharaji was doing when he was sitting in front of premies as they were singing Arti (a devotional song), or dancing at programmes. The expressions on his face and his speech are telling (to me, at least), of very powerful inner experiences, and it tends to draw you in, too, if you happen to be close to him or listening to his discourse. In short, my interpretation of it is that it is easy for someone who 'keeps the horses of his mind in rein' by the meditation to focus, go inside with the minimum of effort. I can also inform you with certainty that much, if not most, of the things expressed on the ex-premie site and in these 'discussions' are simply lies, insinuations and empty speculation. Really, you should check him out for yourself.
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 03:23:36 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
I really think you're confused Mili ..... I've attended dozens of 'knowledge sessions', , and maharaji himself showed me the techniques with his nice small fingers, thus I think I know what i'm talking about! 1/ He said several several time, including in many videos, that there is no green light to see what someone is experiencing. As a matter of fact I never saw any light (green or red) on his face. Maybe some after a good Cognac, but this is not what we are talking about. 2/ He said many times in knowledge sessions and in knowledge reviews that there is nothing like meditating with open eyes, Holy Name on the go, etc. I suggest you ask for a knowledge review next time an instructor comes to your place. 3/ How can you see someone has a deep inner experience? The only indications I have is what transpires in his personal life : the way he behaves with people around him, what he answers to questions regarding his experience, how he can be trusted, etc A lot has already be said about that.
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 16:10:07 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
You really are full of shit, Mr. Ex-Initiator. I could've done your job better than you! Take some of Shri Hans' satsang and read what he says about meditating on the Holy Name. It can be done while you are sitting, standing, walking or lying down. It can be done while riding a bicycle, too! This is CONSTANT meditation we are talking about.
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 19:46:27 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mr. Ex and Mili the Warrior
Subject: Remember the name? (Re: Revealing it all?)
Message:
Take some of Shri Hans' satsang and read what he says about meditating on the Holy Name. It can be done while you are sitting, standing, walking or lying down. It can be done while riding a bicycle, too! This is CONSTANT meditation we are talking about. I got knowledge in 1972. We were told that we should try to meditate on the Word (Holy Name) constantly - as Mili says. I'd be really interested to know if this is NOT taught in knowledge sessions any more -especially now that Maharaji is personally supervising all the knowledge sessions.
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 22:49:09 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
As far as I remember, from the knowledge review from Maharaji himself around 1985, we were not to meditate on "the name" while doing anything else. We were only to meditate for an hour in the morning and an hour at night with 15 minutes for each technique. Maharaji was very explicit, and wanted these techniques to be done exactly as he said. Everything I have read from the ex-initiator is consonant with what I know about Maharaji and the organization. Admitedly I don't know much about the modern EV financial picture, but I have no reason to doubt ex-initiator's word.
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 02:26:28 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
As I see it, the fifteen minutes thing is just a guideline.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 13:43:31 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Revealing it all?
Message:
As far as I remember, from the knowledge review from Maharaji himself around 1985, we were not to meditate on 'the name' while doing anything else. We were only to meditate for an hour in the morning and an hour at night with 15 minutes for each technique. Maharaji was very explicit, and wanted these techniques to be done exactly as he said. Everything I have read from the ex-initiator is consonant with what I know about Maharaji and the organization. Admitedly I don't know much about the modern EV financial picture, but I have no reason to doubt ex-initiator's word. Bobby, you sound fairly unambiguous here, but just to be clear, did Maharaji say that you should NOT meditate on the word other than in "formal" meditation, or only that it wasn't necessary to try to do that. I agree with Katie, that when I received knowledge in 1973, up to and including when I left in 1983, Maharaji's teachings were that you were to try to meditate on the word ALL the time, in addition to meditating on it as one of the techniques in formal meditation, one hour in the morning and one hour in the evening. [In fact, the teaching was that you should do nectar technique as much as possible, because if you did that technique you would "automatically" be meditating on "the word" as well.] This is a fairly major change in M's instructions on how to practice "the knowledge." I wish he had taught that when I was involved, it would have saved me from a lot of frustration in the difficulty I had in following his instructions. JW
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 14:47:59 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: ds@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: And another thing...
Message:
I thought Brian's experience of being called by a premie to renounce the Internet was fascinating. Presumably M thinks that killing off the Internet connection will kill off the debate. And to think we once gave our all to convert the planet! I've put Brian's experience on line at the web site.
Click here to read it. David P.S. If enlightenment means anything, it means having no fear. Zen Master Rinzai.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 22:29:14 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: And another thing...
Message:
COOOOOL!!!! I'M GONNA BE ON ALTAVISTA!!! AND YAHOO!!! By the way David, I noticed that on that page and the posting that Katie made to a.c.m that you both deleted that bizarre partial sentence. Thanks to both of you for that, as it was due to editing in the teeeeny little box provided for starting a new thread.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 12:34:06 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: ds@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: More Web posts
Message:
A couple more posts received at the http://www.ex-premie.org website.. From Peter Pereira Bueno alguien va tener que traducirte esto , lo ago asi por que me siento mas comodo en mi propio idioma 1) cuando tu mencionas que todos loque estas haciendo es en memoria de miembros que se han suisidado yo todavia me pregunto por que lo hicieron sin embargo el unico pensamiento que se me ocurre fueron enganados y se enganaron asi mismo.2) con respecto al asram ok habian reglas coma hay en esta sociedad trabajas y los mas importante practicando el K de GM el lo mas hermoso que hay ahora todas esas historias de ex premis realmente ellos expresan fueron amantes de sus propios deseos ideas y eso no esta mal tu vas a seguir siendo responsable de tu propios actos. Maharaji no esta dictando leyes o que abandones los que tu tengas o ideas que tu practiques o si tienes cancer el te va a curar o si eres pobre economicamente va hacer millonario no completamente no en mi experiencia el a vuelto mi vida mas plena y recibi este conocimiento ya hace 22 anos y a mi sinceramente me funciona las tennicas vi las fotos de las posiciones que tu hablas hay mejores posiciones joga de tecnica pero M me dio las que funcionan .y en cada oportunidad que lo vuelvo a ver y escuchar mi corazon se llena de dicha. And from Carmen A LaRosa After finding and exploring your site, I feel I have to respond. I received Knowledge in 1973 and since then have witnessed all of the changes you've described in the "organizations" based on Maharaji's Knowledge. Organizations are just a group of "organized" people who share something in common, and like everything else in this changeable universe, change with time. Whether these changes are "good" or"bad" is a matter of perception and interpretation, as is everything humans experience. However there is a constant that exists beyound time and space: the singularity of the big bang, the origin of all, the primordial vibration, god, call it as you perceive it. The most amazing thing that I've discovered is that this constant exists not at a time long ago, in a galaxy far far away, but inside of me. That close! So close that it is me. The essential me that persists when the whole universe returns to that primordial seed. This is the Truth I have learned from the experience of Knowledge. And this Truth is strickly an experience. Experiences cannot be described, only felt by a conscious being. In fact as we all know trying to describe an experience always falls short and never can convey the "feeling" of the experience, which is its essence. Knowledge is an experience, not an object that can be described. Maharaji is a human being who has volentarily assumed the role of showing that experience to other human beings who are seeking it. No more, no less. The techniques are only tools, which hone and tune-in the experience. The most common mistake is to confuse the tool with the work. The paint brush is not the picture, the radio tuner is not the sound, the techniques are not the experience within. Billy Graham has certaintly lived a much fuller life than most of us, traveling around the world, meeting all types of famous people, inspiring millions of people with his discourses. Yet when asked what the single most important thing he has learned in his life, his response was" how short life is". So dear David, stop wasting your life on trying to inform or misinform on the most important experience that a human can feel, the feeling of one's true self. Just do it! Knowledge is an action, not an idea or description. Don't worry about who Maharaji is or isn't, what he owns or doesn't, these are all distractions from the business of performing one's own transformation toward the ultimate Truth. Practice Knowledge without pre-conception like a newborn, just take it in without expectations or interpretation. Go beyound thought, to the realm of feeling, to the domain of the heart. There you will experience all that you seek and more. There you will find that contrary to the X-files motto, the Truth is not out there, but is within.  
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 18:53:34 (EST)
Poster: El Sid
Email:
To: David
Subject: Peter's note in english (Re: More Web posts)
Message:
A Translation of the above letter that was in spanish: Dear David, Hello, someone will have to translate this, I write like this because I feel more comfortable in my native language. 1.) When you mention that all that you are doing is in memory of the members that have committed suicide, I still ask myself, ‘Why did they do it?' Surely the only thought that comes to me was that they were deceived and will be deceived similarly. 2.) With respect to the ashram, OK, there were rules like there are in this society. You work and the most important is practicing the Knowledge of GM. The most beautiful thing there is. Now all these stories of ex premies, really they express that they were lovers of their own desires. This is not bad so long as you are going to continue being responsible for your own acts. Maharaji isn't dictating laws or telling you to abandon what you might think you have. He is not spreading ideas that if you have cancer, he is going to cure you, or if you are poor economically, he will make you a millionaire. Not really, not in my experience. He has changed my life more fully than that. I received Knowledge 22 years ago. For me, honestly the techniques work. I saw the photos of the meditation positions that you say are the best yogic positions for the techniques, but Maharaji gave me the ones that work, and every chance that I can awaken and see and hear my heart, it fills me with happiness. Pedro Pereira (Translated by El Sid)
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 10:53:55 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Intent
Message:
I'm trying to figure out Maharaji's intent. For me;intentions are very important.I know many say that intentions are irrelevant and it's only the effects of intentions that matter.Eg;a person is driving down a quiet suburban street when suddenly,out of nowhere;there's a squirrel in the road up ahead directly in line to be squashed.Person reacts immediately by swerving out of the way,but unfortunately by so doing,this person runs into and seriously injures a child who was running after a ball into the street.This person obviously didn't see the child and had no intention of hurting anything,in fact the intent was quite noble:save a cute little squirrel. Some people would say"I don't give a crap what their intent was:the fact is that a child was seriously injured."True;but for me the intent here is what allows me to forgive this person. Intentions are extremely important to me. What are Maharaji's intentions?There are so many possibilities.Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he really believes himself to be the master of the present time.And that his ultimate intention is to bring knowledge to the world.And let's say that he knows it to be fact that the full benefits of knowledge will not be experienced without his presence somewhere in the equation. Well then,if his intent is to have as many humans as possible have this experience:is there a way other then how he currently does it that would better serve his intention? (of course you may be thinking"yeah right,but I don't think that's his intention,I think his intention is to keep the infrastructure that supports his way of living healthy"-or a zillion other things-but for now I'm curious about whether or not his actual actions would fit the "spread this knowledge" intent)
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 11:56:29 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Intent
Message:
Well, to me it's definitely clear that he feels that the Knowledge per se is something beneficial that should be made available to people and its obvious that he believes that a living Master is indispensable in the process. That's the way he received it and that's the way it's traditionally been for thousands of years. I simply don't buy the crap that he is selling meditation techniques because he never asked me money for them, and the things that WERE for sale - cassettes, magazines and videos were reasonably priced and I always bought them out of genuine interest, not because I was coerced or compelled to buy them. Also, I have felt for myself how much easier it is to meditate at the programs and festivals before and after his discourses. Not only because of the whole setting, but directly in connection with hearing him speak and feeling the place he is coming from. So, basically, I do not feel ripped off or cheated, either by the techniques or the satsang (discourses) of Maharaji. All in all, I feel I got a very good deal indeed. As regards your question of whether there could be a better way of doing what he is doing - I don't think so, because he has had many years of experience and also draws on the experience of satgurus before him. The ex-premies will probably freak out at what I am about to say, but, for me darshan (individual audience or contact) with Maharaji is indicative of his wish to have a personal contact with every disciple. He has been known to spend long hours (and I mean LONG) and days waiting for people to file past him so that he could have a few seconds with every one. There has never been any pre-requisite form of approaching him - he actually discouraged feet kissing at a point, and a pillow was laid before his feet for those who wanted to simply do pranam - lay their forehead on the pillow. Again, it was never mandatory. I have seen people in darshan at times just passing by him, people have talked with him, and mothers have taken bottles with baby milk to be blessed by touching his feet. I find it hard to believe that an insincere person would repeatedly expose himself to this kind of personal, eye-to-eye contact with people. Actually, it is telling of the trust and devotion that he has had for his disciples as much as the trust and reverence that they have for him. To me it's obvious that he is pursuing a very difficult schedule of traveling to have personal contact and inspiration for all of his disciples and people who are interested in Knowledge everywhere in the world, a schedule that goes far 'above and beyond' the call of duty or any petty motive. So, to answer your question as I see it - the individual, personal relationship between teacher and disciple, or friend with friend, or just human to human, is important to Maharaji, and can only to an extent be compensated by technology. I believe he is thinking along these lines.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 12:24:30 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Intent
Message:
What are Maharaji's intentions?There are so many possibilities.Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he really believes himself to be the master of the present time.And that his ultimate intention is to bring knowledge to the world.And let's say that he knows it to be fact that the full benefits of knowledge will not be experienced without his presence somewhere in the equation. Well then,if his intent is to have as many humans as possible have this experience:is there a way other then how he currently does it that would better serve his intention? (of course you may be thinking'yeah right,but I don't think that's his intention,I think his intention is to keep the infrastructure that supports his way of living healthy'-or a zillion other things-but for now I'm curious about whether or not his actual actions would fit the 'spread this knowledge' intent) Dear bftb, I do think that Maharaji "really believes himself to be the master of the present time, and that [he believes] that his ultimate intention is to bring knowledge to the world." I'm not so sure about that he KNOWS that "the full benefits of knowledge will not be experienced without his presence somewhere in the eguation" - in fact I can't even take that as an "given" for the sake of argument. Let's say he BELIEVES that, if that's OK with you. I really think he's been programmed to believe these things about himself and about knowledge since he was a very small child. But I also think that there is a part of him that resists that. It's like the kid whose dad is a doctor and is being brought up under the assumption that he will be a doctor also. A lot of times those kids rebel and become auto mechanics or something else. I think Maharaji has rebelled to a certain extent (marrying Marolyn and splitting from him mom and brothers), but not to the point where he's willing to give up the Perfect Master title. I do think there's a certain part of him that wants to be a regular guy (or a regular 8-year-old kid), and that dichotomy may cause him to believe a number of other things which are potentially destructive to his original intentions. For example, I think that he believes that he's entitled to be very wealthy and have the best and most luxurious accomodations and playthings, because he is Satguru. (A lot of premies believe this too - I certainly did.) This belief has apparently caused one of the main purposes (or intentions) of Elan Vital to be to acquire money for Maharaji's lifestyle, sometimes by rather dubious means. Now obviously this money could be used for propagating knowledge, or even for feeding starving people so that they can appreciate the knowledge, but it is not. This makes me wonder about the purity of his intentions. Also, he apparently has gotten so disgusted with premies that he will not allow them to give knowledge or even give satsang any more. He wants to do it all himself, because he apparently believes that that is the only way it's going to get done right. Maybe this is true, but how does this jibe with his intention to spread knowledge to the whole world? It's nearly impossible to hear about Maharaji anymore unless you know a premie, and that premie offers you a videotape or invites you to a showing of a video. Another thing that I think interferes with Maharaji's ultimate intentions is his belief that he is infallible. Thus he never, ever, admits that he or anyone in his organization might have done something wrong. Even if we assume that he thinks he's perfect so he can't do anything wrong, people who were acting as his representatives have done some really bad things (child abuse, assault, etc.) which Maharaji has never acknowledged. This has caused many people to be angry with him (I know people who absolutely hate Maharaji because of things that were done to them in his name), and I don't see how this furthers his intentions at all. I do believe that a person can really INTEND to do good and end up causing harm because their intentions become corrupted. This is different than the accidental harm that you described in your squirrel example above. I think this is what has happened to Maharaji's intentions.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 13:00:13 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Intent
Message:
Err.., Katie, I think you are not really aware of M's financial situation and there's a good chance you could be way off mark as to what he really spends money on. You are just repeating a pretty wild speculation that's become a sterotype among ex-premies and basing your reasoning on that. I suggest you re-read some of the stuff on the ex-premie site, especially the part where Mishler advised Maharaji to make solid investments. Hasn't he done just that by purchasing real estate (which is used for satsang programs so that halls need not be rented)? And the cars that he got as presents, or bought himself - pretty good investments, too, don't you think? Those cars will be worth their weight in gold in time if they are well kept. Anyway, I don't know if the cars are still there or not, but I would just like to point out that it takes a lot of money to keep those world tours going every year, and other things running. and to feed and transport all those Indian premies at festivals.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 13:25:14 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Intent
Message:
I couldn't agree with Katie's analysis more. I mean, I agree with her opinions on Maharaji's intentions. I would just like to add that although Maharaji probably does believe, much of the time, that he is the perfect master of our time, and I agree that he has at times rebelled against it, I also think he goes through periods of doubt. I think there have been, and continue to be, times when he doubts that's who he is. I think when this happens he either resorts to drinking (like Mishler reported), or he goes on one of those tirades we have all heard about. For example, when I was community coordinator of DLM in Miami in 1979 and 1980, I recall hearing from initiators, DLM honchos, and others, that Maharaji was spending a lot of time going around the residence screaming and yelling at people, really for no apparent reason. It seemed that absolutely everything was pissing him off. Around the same time, just prior to a big program in Miami, he met with all the initiators and really yelled at them about what they were, or weren't, doing. Just prior to that, Ira Woods (an initiator) had asked me to find out about getting permits to do a parade in Miami as a propogation device, just prior to the program. [Ira was on a big kick at that time about going out and screaming introductory satsang in city parks. When Maharaji heard about this, he reportedly said "that's how knowledge will be spread." This caused a lot of communities to begin this dubious propogation program. (But, I guess this is another area where M changed his mind.)I dutifully did that embarassing stuff as well, but that is another story.] Anyhow, after the initiator meeting with M, Ira was so freaked about doing ANYTHING that he ordered me to stop everything I was doing. He told me that M was really upset and heavy with them and so he was afraid to do anything. But I digress. I think that during those periods, M was upset about the fact that things weren't going well, financially and otherwise, and because he was supposedly all powerful, and dispensed the "grace," it couldn't be his fault, it had to be the fault of his stupid and confused devotees and the organization. [BUT, at the same time, since he was satguru, and all powerful, and things STILL weren't working, he was ultimately responsible even for what the premies did. This called into question whether he really was who he thought he was, and was programmed from the age of 8 to believe he was.] So, I always thought that sometimes when he was in one of those states, he would have a big program and have a darshan line. This both raised money, and gave his ego a big boost, because thousands of premies would worship him and even line up for hours to kiss his feet, and also give him money and presents. This would give reinforcement to him as to who he thought he was supposed to be. ["If all these people believe I am the lord of the universe, I must be."] Pretty simple, really. I think he would also, at these times, ask for grandiose material things, like Boeing 707 aircract, completely rennovated by premies, to further reinforce that he is deserving of such things. And many of the premies were happy to give him all he wanted and more, despite the dire consequences that had on the finances of DLM and the money available for what was supposed to be his true purpose, to propogate knowledge. I think this wavering insecurity also interferes with what he appears to be trying to do. For example, he supposedly got rid of darshan in the West, because it was unrelatable, especially to new people, and was really a big turnoff to the western way of thinking. It makes him look like the ego-maniacal cult leader that he is. But I think sometimes, like just last September in Australia, his need for ego-reinforcement (and cash) overtook the goal to appear less cult-like and less egotistical. So, in his desperation to get ego-reinforcement and money, he holds darshan in the west and looks like a rabid cult leader as a result, which he has been trying to avoid. I also agree that the opulent lifestyle, and his inability to even trust his own devotees are big problems for him as well. All of this interferes with his professed desire to do nothing more than present his "simple message" and reveal meditation techniques to people. While this stuff might be palatable to a lot of people, the other stuff isn't. Joe
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 13:54:47 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Intent
Message:
Dear Mili - I think that the truth is that neither one of us knows what Maharaji's actual financial situation is. I do think it's true that he has a pretty lavish lifestyle, as documented by his houses, etc. But some people think that this is OK. (By the way, I don't think real estate in California - especially Malibu - or any other part of the U.S. is a good investment any more. It probably was when Mishler advised it. Maharaji could have LOST a lot of money on US real estate during the last two decades, although we'll probably never know.) All I can say (having never been around him personally) is that he certainly gives the IMPRESSION that he requires a great deal of money for his personal use, and that he's always given this impression, and that this might be something his PR people need to work on if it is not true. Thanks for your polite reply, by the way.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 15:42:04 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: everyone
Subject: Re: Intent
Message:
I know it sounds sucky when I do this;but I really would like to thank-you who've responded to my original post on this topic so far. And as infuriateingly vague as this will sound;I really feel that I got something out of each of your responses.You make your points and position very clear(ly)and it's very interesting to hear them.I'm learning. A question for you all;aside from all the people who feel that they've had nothing but a positive experience with DLM,EV,knowledge,maharaji,...there are alot of people expressing deep pain that they experience(d).If you were Maharaji,and you knew(believed)that you were the master,but you also knew (maybe from reading this website)that alot of people were feeling very hurt by you,and even if you knew(felt)that their feelings were all wrong,you'd still know the hurt was there and real nonetheless:How would you go about adressing these peoples feelings?
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 17:08:19 (EST)
Poster: Dogbert
Email: meow
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Intent
Message:
I think the cat is out of the bag.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 18:12:25 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email: not really what you think it is
To: Dogbert
Subject: Re: Intent
Message:
I think the cat is out of the bag. You have a real sense of fun.O.K. I'll play along:Care to elaborate on your post?
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 20:08:19 (EST)
Poster: dogbert
Email: meow
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Intent
Message:
Your identity
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 20:13:33 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email: The emperor has no clothes
To: dogbert
Subject: Re: Intent
Message:
Your identity You really like to play.O.K.:Who do you think I am?
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 21:08:14 (EST)
Poster: dogbert
Email: bill of course
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Intent
Message:
Well, at first I thought you were from the sunshine. But when I saw the word lucky, or ducky, or whatever it was, I figured you were Deena. Or you just picked up on the mood. Either way, the post was good and I was figureing on responding to it.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 21:22:58 (EST)
Poster: dogbert
Email: 986
To: dogbert
Subject: Re: Intent
Message:
Ikeep just missing people
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 23:11:52 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: dogbert
Subject: Re: Intent
Message:
Well, at first I thought you were from the sunshine. But when I saw the word lucky, or ducky, or whatever it was, I figured you were Deena. Or you just picked up on the mood. Either way, the post was good and I was figureing on responding to it. Help...now it seems I've been cloned? No it was not me, I Haven't used any other name on this site other than my own. Sorry.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 22:48:01 (EST)
Poster: dogbert
Email: cat in the bag
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Intent
Message:
Then I don't know. reading intent I thought of sunshine boy but maybe not.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 01:17:35 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: The master & meditation
Message:
I have a sneaking suspician that M has had very little experience of meditation. His satsang over the years has only vague references to the techniques and these have been changed since I received K. The knowledge review described on the ex-premie web site shows a remarkable lack of grasp of the meditation itself. When one gets into one of the technique experiences it's virtually impossible to tear oneself away and go to another technique. And yet Maharaji suggests that people do the techniques in a nice 15 minutes each, orderly fashion as if he's talking about baking a cake. It seems all theory to him. As if he's had no actual experience. Most ex-premies who meditate will probably say that they have one technique which they prefer above all others. My favourite technique is the "word" (although why the hell it's called that I never will understand, I would call it the "Gentle Peace") When I get into this I don't want to move or do anything. I can sometimes sit there for one or two hours just absorbing it with the occasional zap of bright light coming into view. Such an experience seems a million miles away from what Maharaji suggests in the knowledge session described on the web site. To be honest, the people who seemed to understand the meditation the most were some of the Indian Mahatmas I was around in the seventies. They often told me that any ONE of the techniques could take you to God. Remember the cross of the four techniques with God in the middle? And I have NEVER heard Maharaji talk about the nectar technique. Once one premie asked him about the nectar and Maharaji just scolded him for asking too many questions. Some of the Mahatmas used to swear by it (nectar) and in my experience it is a delightful, although elusive experience. If Maharaji is a heavy drinker then that also implies that he doesn't meditate. The two don't mix very well in my experience, not heavy drinking. Mike's account of his experience with his Mahatma are fascinating. If Bob Mishler's interview is to be believed then it would seem that Guru Maharaj Ji's Mahatmas Knew more about the knowledge than he ever did. Why is it that for every ten people who receive knowledge, only one remains a premie. Could it be that the "teacher" does not understand the experience himself? I have my doubts and I just have to voice them...
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 03:03:55 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: The master & meditation
Message:
Does it matter? What do I care if and when premie or ex-premie Joe Blow will do meditation or not? Or Maharaji, for that matter. If and when they meditate is up to them. What matters is that you had nice experiences in meditation. The Knowledge worked for you. I remember very clearly Maharaji saying, 'Meditation is an individual experience, like quenching your thirst. If you drink water it will quench your own thirst, not anyone else's.' When you do meditation, it doesn't mean that I have an experience. You are the one who has an experience. BTW, I never heard Mji putting a time limit on meditation. I certainly don't watch the clock.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 07:46:45 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: The master & meditation
Message:
I agree. Even when I was a premie back in the '70's and early '80's we used to talk about Maharaji and his seeming lack of practice. I never thought of Maharaji as a meditation master per se. When I did think of him as a "Master" it was in terms of his purported ability to move one beyond the "mind" into spiritual realms. Enlightenment is not "meditation" per se, it is a state of development or being. Meditation can be a state of being, but is also a tool or means to get to deeper spiritual realms. And yet Maharaji suggests that people do the techniques in a nice 15 minutes each, orderly fashion as if he's talking about baking a cake. I was at a knowledge review in the New York area sometime in the mid-eighties. During this period Maharaji said that he needed to give the knowledge review himself. This he did. Our instructions were to do each technique in succession for 15 minutes each.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 11:01:15 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: The master & meditation
Message:
> Such an experience seems a million miles away from what Maharaji suggests in the knowledge session described on the web site. You must realize that the web site has very little to do with Maharaji. You might consider that the info is lets say rather second hand. You know which hand I mean. Question the validity of the ex-premie web site. Remember, only the Beatles are greater than God, thats what the news reports said.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 11:26:28 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: The master & meditation
Message:
It is easy to judge but not so easy to come up with the good solution. How would Bobby or David present K in an effective manner so as to please the masses and have them fully grok the experience as well? I see some extremely difficult compromises and quite a challenge. To take one or two of Maharaji's statements out of context certainly does not accurately portray what he is attempting to teach. Why are the peoples of the world still in turmoil after all these centuries? Sometimes even people in New York City don't relate to each other. And Jews and Arabs seem to disagree from what is reported in the news. So, I am off to Long Beach where there are plenty of street gangs. There will also be some talks which I can guess will focus on the challenge of finding a peace inside each human being. Does such a peace really exist? Later, CD
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 12:05:47 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: The master & meditation
Message:
Dave, It's interesting to see some of the similarities between Ex-TMrs AND Ex-Premies knowledge instruction. Maharishi says that TMrs should practice meditation 15 to 20 minutes, twice a day... and your saying that GMJ says 15 minutes per technique or at least an hour per sitting. I went through the TM, TM-Advanced, Siddhi and Govenors Programs as well as received knowledge and found that 15 minutes... at least from TM's point of view was to insure that the person received at least some benefit and would dedicate a serious block of time to the practice. However, I've read several stories of Zen Monks who'd reach Satori in an instant with just the striking of a bell or block. I also wonder if the 15 minute guidance was put out by GMJ just to give a general reference and starting point for meditation. Doing Knowledge blows me away! Especially approaching it from contacting the divine lover within me. Seeing the Divine Lover, Hearing the Divine Lover, Tasting and Feeling that Lover within! Mmmmmm Pranam!!! I think in all of our scrutiny of GMJ we don't forget why we entered this swamp in the first place... which was to satisfy that intense search for that ultimate satisfaction, ultimate happiness and ultimate bliss of the Divine Lover. To get that inner Kiss. At least that is the general consensus of why we entered. My favorite part of meditation is Nectar :)
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 14:23:41 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: David Simpkiss & all
Subject: Re: The master & meditation
Message:
When I was a premie, I always thought that Maharaji didn't need to meditate because he had already "realized" knowledge - I guess I thought he was meditating all the time, like we were supposed to do back then. Are premies still supposed to do this, by the way? I remember a very devout ashram premie giving satsang about this at some time in the mid-seventies and admitting that he was having trouble doing his job because he was trying to meditate on the Word all day. This sort of shook me up. Anyway, I'd be interested to know how often the premies (and the ex-premies who still meditate) who post on here practice meditation, and if they do the 15 minute per technique thing that David and Bobby described. And if they don't do this, then when was their last knowledge review? Because apparently this is what is being taught by Maharaji now. I personally always had a very hard time meditating for an hour in the morning and an hour at night. Part of this was because I really never experienced much from meditation. I did, however, ALWAYS felt horribly guilty about not meditating as much as I should. I have to admire premies like Mili who really don't worry about meditating for a prescribed period every day (I'm not being sarcastic). It was actually a relief for me to renounce knowledge and not have that big guilt on my head all the time. Needless to say, I haven't meditated on what M presents as "knowledge" since then, because of the negative feelings that I have associated with it. I have, however, used some other forms of meditation (like visualization) and these work a lot better for me. P.S. David - I still owe you an e-mail about the "Word". By the way, I do think the whole concept of the "Word" or "Holy Name" was quite confusing. Although I never thought it was supposed to be an actual word, I did think (and was told) that it was something more than just concentrating on one's breath (and I did go through several knowledge reviews without finding out otherwise). I was really surprised to find this out when I read the knowledge techniques on the web site.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 14:48:09 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: Re: The master & meditation
Message:
Yes Katie, I can certainly relate to your rejection of the knowledge techniques. I think it is "aversion" to all the crap that went with them. I'm surprised more of us didn't go mad! Creative visualisation is a powerful tool, I have no doubt about that as I've used it on and off myself over the years. It certainly has helped me in business. Now imagine if some guy stood up and started giving heavy "satsang" about the need to practise creative visualisation. It could put you off it for life! I was put off doing any meditation for years by all the heavy trips and "duality" as Deena mentions. If I do some meditation now, it's because I feel like it and if I just sit there and have a think about things or fantasise about beautiful women, like you and Deena, what the hell does it matter. I'm doing it to relax. At 45 I'm getting too old for all this intense stuff. And yes MIke, nectar is certainly the most sexy of the techniques. I think I'll have a bash at it tonight. Dave.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 14:58:51 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: The master & meditation
Message:
Katie, This relates back to what I said to you earlier..., there are large chunks left out of what the Mahatmas from Shri Hans's time taught and what is taught today. Yes, it's a whole heap more than just focusing on your breath! And yes, there's definitely an upspoken by the mind and by the voice box... a Word pronounced that has unfailing results. Dave asked me about this earlier and I'm still having trouble breaking my promise not to reveal what was shown however, I can say that you might want to look at the Word Technique contained in the Bramanand Gita under Yagyas and Pujas. I think it'll be quite a shock for you and maybe a large relief. Enjoy, Mike
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 16:39:57 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: The master & meditation
Message:
Hi David - (thanks for the compliment, by the way. Always nice to hear. Of course, I don't want to mess with your meditation so I won't say anything to the contrary about myself...) Just one comment, I don't really do what I think of as "creative visualization" or at least I don't do it formally - I just visualize light and colors. I actually did see white light in the knowledge session (and never again thereafter), and I use this as my "light" image. Anyway, this is low pressure, tends to make me feel better, and I don't worry about doing it or not doing it.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 16:53:57 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mike (and David)
Subject: Re: The Word (Re: The master & meditation)
Message:
Dear Mike - Please don't break your promise on my account - I certainly don't expect it or even want you to. I don't think you should do it unless you feel completely all right about it. Second, I cannot remember who I got knowledge from (young guy, very intense and not a big talker, somewhat telepathic, and not one of the "famous" mahatmas. I never saw him again after the knowledge session, and no one who asked me who I got knowledge from (remember how premies used to do this? Like it was better if you got it from certain mahatmas or something?) had ever heard of him. I think he might have stuck with Mata Ji and the brothers after the break up. (Anybody got any ideas?) But anyway, in the knowledge session, he never said we were supposed to meditate on any of the supposed "words" that I heard later were THE WORD, or led to the word. I'm talking about "sat nam", "so hum" and its variant "so hung". (Bobby also mentioned that meditating on "OM" was spoken about in some DLM handouts he saw in India.) In my knowledge session, the mahatma just talked about finding the vibration BEHIND one's breath - what was moving the breath so to speak. At that time, I found it very difficult to meditate on my breath without starting to conciously force my breathing so I ended up meditating on my heartbeat! (and also the sound of blood circulating through the body - it sounds sort of like something one would hear when listening to a seashell.) Yes, David, this is my "secret" meditation technique, believe it or not! As stupid as it sounds, it seemed to work as well as anything else. I went through two or three knowledge reviews and still kept doing it that way. By the way, I always wondered why the breath is considered sacred in so many religions and the heartbeat isn't mentioned (or I've never seen it mentioned, rather.)
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 18:45:30 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: The Word (Re: The master & meditation)
Message:
Dear Katie - There are several ways to pronounce things... we can speak things aloud with our voice, we can hum things in our throat, we can mentally speak and repeat things, and we can pronounce things with our breath. There are five distinct sounds that our breath makes which produce the five distinct states of being which constitute the complete cycle of our being: Creating, Sustaining, Changing/Destroying, Transendence and Innocence. This also means that our minds will also take the shape of the state of being we're focusing on and producing as well. The mind will focus on anything we direct it to, and will remain there with a bit of gentle guidance until we develop the habit of focusing on our object of meditation. The more we gently focus on our object of meditation... the more absorbed we become in that object... until I and that... like the salt doll walking into the ocean... melt and become one. The original sound of the breath, produces the Innocence State which is our natural blameless state or the state that the source of universal love (SOUL) always returns to from lifetime to lifetime. The Sat Purusha or True Being neither creates, sustains, destroys or transends however, without Innocence, none of the other four would exist. And the Sat Purusha always exist in an Innocent and Blameless state. The experience of pronouncing is performed by focusing on specific parts of the sound that the breath makes as though we were actually pronouncing it via the power of our breath. For example: when we speak we can open our mouth and exhale and shape our vocal cords and make sounds... the only difference is... we won't be using our vocal cords to make the sounds. For that matter..., we won't use our minds either to pronounce... only to focus on what is being pronounced and we'll shift our intension of pronounciation to our breath to speak one of the five sounds that breath makes. This will produce one of the five states that we choose to experience the Paramahansa (i.e., The Creator/Creatrix, Sustainer, Destroyer, Transender or The Innocent). Focusing on your heart is great because it keeps you in tune with your emotional intelligence. There's a great piece in Zen Flesh, Zen Bones in the back were Paravati is asking Shiva how man can get in touch with the supreme lord... and one of the 108 methods he states is focusing on the space between the beats of the heart which some have called: the Mansaroveranand or the Holy Lake of the Heart.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 22:45:45 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: The master & meditation
Message:
Even when I was a premie back in the '70's and early '80's we used to talk about Maharaji and his seeming lack of practice. Ah, but remember Bobby? MJ used to claim to have "realized this Knowledge". Remember how he used to hold "realization" up as the goal, rather than practice for its own sake? He was exempt because he had already transcended the lessons the rest of us were struggling with at the time.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 23:16:58 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: The master & meditation
Message:
Even when I was a premie back in the '70's and early '80's we used to talk about Maharaji and his seeming lack of practice. Ah, but remember Bobby? MJ used to claim to have 'realized this Knowledge'. Remember how he used to hold 'realization' up as the goal, rather than practice for its own sake? He was exempt because he had already transcended the lessons the rest of us were struggling with at the time. Brian - It seems strange to me to hear that GMJ doesn't practice meditation in front of premies anymore. Years past, I remember him taking at least a few minutes if not several minutes of the program to get centered before speaking. Ramakrishna and Vivekanand use to lead people for hours in public meditation and prayer with complaints that Ramakrishna, though very spiritual... spends entirely too much time lost in meditation forgetting the audience, and should concentrate on more prayer for the western oriented to grasp a deeper meaning of eastern thought - written in Paramahansa Yoganand's Eastern Star News at the turn of the century. I read a piece in David Lanes 10 Worst Guru's... where Da Free John says to consider the message, not the messager and his actions. It would be so much simpler if GMJ just came out and said : "Look, I have this church, and this church has got to crawl before it walks... and it's got to walk before it runs... and to run it got to have lots of money" Of course, he's probably afraid that we'd go: "Let it crawl Rev, let it crawl!"
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 23:24:45 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: The master & meditation
Message:
Yes Katie, I can certainly relate to your rejection of the knowledge techniques. I think it is 'aversion' to all the crap that went with them. I'm surprised more of us didn't go mad! Creative visualisation is a powerful tool, I have no doubt about that as I've used it on and off myself over the years. It certainly has helped me in business. Now imagine if some guy stood up and started giving heavy 'satsang' about the need to practise creative visualisation. It could put you off it for life! I was put off doing any meditation for years by all the heavy trips and 'duality' as Deena mentions. If I do some meditation now, it's because I feel like it and if I just sit there and have a think about things or fantasise about beautiful women, like you and Deena, what the hell does it matter. I'm doing it to relax. At 45 I'm getting too old for all this intense stuff. And yes MIke, nectar is certainly the most sexy of the techniques. I think I'll have a bash at it tonight. Dave. Mili has a different visualisation of what I look like. He once described me as dumpy (in fact I am slim) and frigid (something I have never been), cyberspace is deceiving... I like your visualisation better...
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 23:33:33 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mike
Subject: Re: The Word (Re: The master & meditation)
Message:
Thanks very much, Mike. This is a fairly mind-blowing post and I'm still thinking about it. Two questions, if you can answer them: is everyone pronouncing one of the five sounds all the time whether they're aware of them or not? Also (this is slightly off the subject), I worked with a therapist who used some techniques from Rebirthing, and one of them was called connected breathing. In it, one concentrated on one's breath but made sure inhale followed exhale followed inhale with absolutely no pause. Doing this was great for getting out supressed emotions. Any comments on this? I know it's the opposite of some yoga breathing techniques where one deliberately pauses for some time after the inhale and after the exhale.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 00:17:30 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: The Word (Re: The master & meditation)
Message:
Thanks very much, Mike. This is a fairly mind-blowing post and I'm still thinking about it. Two questions, if you can answer them: is everyone pronouncing one of the five sounds all the time whether they're aware of them or not? Also (this is slightly off the subject), I worked with a therapist who used some techniques from Rebirthing, and one of them was called connected breathing. In it, one concentrated on one's breath but made sure inhale followed exhale followed inhale with absolutely no pause. Doing this was great for getting out supressed emotions. Any comments on this? I know it's the opposite of some yoga breathing techniques where one deliberately pauses for some time after the inhale and after the exhale. Dear Katie, We move from one state of being and activity to another because of what we unconscioulsy concentrate upon within our breath. Our mind picks something to focus on and it picks the appropriate breath to conform to that thought... much like the tail, wagging the dog... til it shakes it's nose off. When we turn it around and consciously focus by pronouncing a particular breath... we inturn, make our mind assume a state of being. Hopefully a very peaceful and centered state, a very loving state. Once we start doing that we soon realize that everyone is in some state or another, everything is being created, sustained, destroyed, transending and being innocent, day in, and day out forever. In Hatha Yoga, you do asanas (postures) and all the while focus on keeping your breath relaxed and even. So much so, that Hatha Yogi's have a separate practice of pranayana to perform before they take on practicing the Asanas, just to keep their breath even and calm during the asanas. However, we naturally return to the Innocent State via our breath. Remember hearing about the old Mahatma's saying that OM is perfectly acceptable for meditation. They weren't talking about the outter OM that you can pronounce with your mind or mouth... they were talking about the inner pronounciation of OM via the breath. How is this done??? By using the breath as an instrument to pronounce one of the breath Words which make up the five parts of the Word, much like you'd use your mouth or mind... when you Inhale the breath will make the sound S(0)... and exhaling Hu(M). By pronouncing the inner "O" on "SO" and the "M" on "HUM" using the breath as the instrument for that pronounciation... you invoke the natural state of Blameless Innocence. There are four other Breath Words which make up the rest of the Five Breath Words or Word. Remember Arti? Creator, Preserver, Destroyer, all bow their heads and pray to you. That was only a partial reminder of the formula on how to practice the entire Word technique. Enjoy, Mike
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Date: Thurs, Dec 4, 1997 at 10:57:57 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: The Word (Re: The master & meditation)
Message:
Thanks very much, Mike. This is a fairly mind-blowing post and I'm still thinking about it. Two questions, if you can answer them: is everyone pronouncing one of the five sounds all the time whether they're aware of them or not? Also (this is slightly off the subject), I worked with a therapist who used some techniques from Rebirthing, and one of them was called connected breathing. In it, one concentrated on one's breath but made sure inhale followed exhale followed inhale with absolutely no pause. Doing this was great for getting out supressed emotions. Any comments on this? I know it's the opposite of some yoga breathing techniques where one deliberately pauses for some time after the inhale and after the exhale. Dear Katie, Just an after thought from last night... when practicing the Word... you have to relax into it to pronounce it. Many people including myself... tense up the throat. By being conscious of this... you can let go. Another thing, don't push the breath... let the breath go at it's own rate. All of the nine techniques are like this in that they don't use force or pressure of any form to do them. They are very natural and very relaxed. I'm amazed at some of the premies telling me about their eye problems and respitory problems since receiving knowledge from GMJ. We must be gentle with our selves to practice knowledge. Enjoy, Mike
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 20:33:56 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Sucking up
Message:
Hey, it just occured to me. Maybe if I hadn't learnt the art of sucking up so late I would still be in Maharaji's good books! I mean, isn't that what Patrick, his valet and Yurim his finance's coordinator or David Smith the instuctor (previously known as initiator, previously known as an Mahatma...gawd, hard to keep up with the changing terminology, but that's typical in cults, like Guru Maharaj Ji to Maharaji, can't tell you how many people have heard of the old name but not the new one, so they don't associate all the lord of the universe stuff with it. But I've gotten carried away in these brackets). Whew, I'm out of there! What was I saying? Oh yah, I was talkin 'bout all those people who are up there (up his arce that is...oh no, it's happening, the clonning you all warned me of, Jim's power is.....helpppppp!) Nah...but if I had sucked up, then, Maharaji would be very comfortable with me because it would flatter his ego. Now don't try to tell me that he doesn't have one. Oh, I forgot. The reason wasn't vanity that led to the huge exhibition of photos (some framed) expensively sold at last year's events. We all know he just wanted to get his mistress hot by giving her a place to show her photos. Yikes...had to duck, can see the shit hitting the fan now with that last comment. Whoops...I'm in for it now. Let her rip! Boy, I must be recovering. I couldn't have done this 9 months ago! Remember that song...'Oh Maharaji, it's more than enough, just knowing that your here and your there. Oh Maharaji, in your court of love there are no grudges to bear.' Funny, they never sang that at the anniversary event. Quess Maharaji doesn't like the lyrics anymore. Dah?
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 20:35:10 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Sucking up
Message:
Hey, it just occured to me. Maybe if I hadn't learnt the art of sucking up so late I would still be in Maharaji's good books! I mean, isn't that what Patrick, his valet and Yurim his finance's coordinator or David Smith the instuctor (previously known as initiator, previously known as an Mahatma...gawd, hard to keep up with the changing terminology, but that's typical in cults, like Guru Maharaj Ji to Maharaji, can't tell you how many people have heard of the old name but not the new one, so they don't associate all the lord of the universe stuff with it. But I've gotten carried away in these brackets). Whew, I'm out of there! What was I saying? Oh yah, I was talkin 'bout all those people who are up there (up his arce that is...oh no, it's happening, the clonning you all warned me of, Jim's power is.....helpppppp!) Nah...but if I had sucked up, then, Maharaji would be very comfortable with me because it would flatter his ego. Now don't try to tell me that he doesn't have one. Oh, I forgot. The reason wasn't vanity that led to the huge exhibition of photos (some framed) expensively sold at last year's events. We all know he just wanted to get his mistress hot by giving her a place to show her photos. Yikes...had to duck, can see the shit hitting the fan now with that last comment. Whoops...I'm in for it now. Let her rip! Boy, I must be recovering. I couldn't have done this 9 months ago! Remember that song...'Oh Maharaji, it's more than enough, just knowing that your here and your there. Oh Maharaji, in your court of love there are no grudges to bear.' Funny, they never sang that at the anniversary event. Quess Maharaji doesn't like the lyrics anymore. Dah?
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 20:37:26 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Whoever cares
Subject: Re: Sucking up
Message:
OOOPPPS...that's just a mistake, posting it twice, NOT extreme sucking up. Sorry!
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 23:44:46 (EST)
Poster: Anonomousie
Email: MIAMI
To: Forumba!
Subject: Sucking up (Re: Sucking up)
Message:
Sounds like I'm not the only one having a honeymoon! Some words seem to be directly connected to a corresponding chakra. The kundilini serpent in this case. The wedding was divine and The true parent Moon was glorious. There is so much to say but tonight the serpent mantra is echoeing off the website walls and it's time to answer it.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 19:22:50 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Everyone
Subject: 'his his' ?
Message:
Has anyone ever noticed that at the top of the forum it says: Discussions covering anything and everything concerning Maharaji and his his followers? I don't know why I never noticed until now the extra his? Do you think it's divine intervention? A cosmic message?
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 20:13:18 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: 'his his' ?
Message:
Has anyone ever noticed that at the top of the forum it says: Discussions covering anything and everything concerning Maharaji and his his followers? I don't know why I never noticed until now the extra his? Do you think it's divine intervention? A cosmic message? Maybe. But then it could be a leftover from his court battle with MataJi/BalbagwanJi. Perhaps he took off his shoe in court, pounded the table, and shouted, "The premies are MINE, MINE, MINE!!". Or, maybe not.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 18:17:27 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: New Premie.com
Message:
Since Maharaji has apparently ordered the "premie.com" site out of existence and since it seems that he can click his fingers and the majority of his followers will stop communicating about him or knowledge on the internet, maybe WE, or some group of ex-premies and premies should start ANOTHER premie webb-site, this time allowing for open discussions among premies, and not just a posting page. Or, maybe JUST a posting page like Harlan had, which he said was "mine,mine,mine." (Perhaps with a link to this page?) This is because I think the derranged things that were on the guestbook site were illuminating and a constant reminder of why I left that cult. Here are some suggested web-site titles: "theguyformerlyknownaslordoftheuniverse.com" (thank you, Brian) "lordofthevideos.com" "cultsareus.premies.com" "feetkissers.com" "gururelicfromthe70s.com" Does anyone else have any suggestions?
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 19:19:19 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: New Premie.com
Message:
Yah...thisisnotacult@blessingstoallthepremies.com but I myself am partial to Brian's!
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 22:40:43 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: New Premie.com
Message:
I think that it's a good idea to start a new site. Here are my suggestions: comainducingsatsang.com eyeballpressingtime.com iusetogetangryatthingsbutthisknowledgeissobeautifulthatiamalwayshappyandfulloflove.com darshanorama!.com or, since the Lord of the Universe won't recommend the site: peoplearoundmaharaji.com
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 23:32:56 (EST)
Poster: b
Email: 985463535656987908-98
To: 50959143857129384510
Subject: Re: New Premie.com
Message:
It's too expensive and somehow it seems not right.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 23:35:25 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: New Premie.com
Message:
How bout: IthinkImgoingblindfromlighttechnique.com Mythumbsalmosttouchformusic.com Wheredidmytonguegofornectar.com Sohungpremiestud.com ;)
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 01:40:24 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: New Premie.com
Message:
Since Maharaji has apparently ordered the 'premie.com' site out of existence and since it seems that he can click his fingers and the majority of his followers will stop communicating about him or knowledge on the internet, maybe WE, or some group of ex-premies and premies should start ANOTHER premie webb-site, this time allowing for open discussions among premies, and not just a posting page. Or, maybe JUST a posting page like Harlan had, which he said was 'mine,mine,mine.' (Perhaps with a link to this page?) This is because I think the derranged things that were on the guestbook site were illuminating and a constant reminder of why I left that cult. Here are some suggested web-site titles: 'theguyformerlyknownaslordoftheuniverse.com' (thank you, Brian) 'lordofthevideos.com' 'cultsareus.premies.com' 'feetkissers.com' 'gururelicfromthe70s.com' Does anyone else have any suggestions? How about 'Joeisamoron.com' ?
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 11:44:47 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: New Premie.com
Message:
Thank you Mili, one does not feel an official "ex-premie" until he or she is the victim of one of your vulgar attacks. Glad to see you are still a loving person as a result of your Lord's grace.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 16:10:27 (EST)
Poster: Her Majesty's Minion
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: The things he said
Message:
There will be three waves of knowledge giving. The first was in the seventies and then many of the premies will leave the knowledge but then there will be another wave of knowledge giving. And then there will be one more wave of giving knowledge; and that will be to the world. The above is merely paraphrased from what someone close to Maharaji told me he said. If anyone has any further details of this grand plan, I'm sure we'd like to hear.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 16:41:08 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Her Majesty's Minion
Subject: Re: The things he said
Message:
Maybe the third wave will happen when streaming video hits the Internet with full force?
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 17:23:13 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Her Majesty's Minion
Subject: Re: The things he said
Message:
There will be three waves of knowledge giving. The first was in the seventies and then many of the premies will leave the knowledge but then there will be another wave of knowledge giving. And then there will be one more wave of giving knowledge; and that will be to the world. The above is merely paraphrased from what someone close to Maharaji told me he said. If anyone has any further details of this grand plan, I'm sure we'd like to hear. I don't have any information on that particular point, but I would like to say the M has said a lot of stuff about the whole world receiving knowledge. For example: One time he said the entire world would have knowledge by the time he was 25 years old. Ooops. Guess he missed THAT deadline. He also said once that if a premie stayed his devotee through 1978 (or was it 1977?) that they would NEVER leave him. Ooops, guess that didn't apply to me! Nor to MOST of the people who were following him in 1978 because the majority of them are long gone. Of course, this is the same person who believed that oil came from dinosaurs (which he mispronounced as "Dina Shores" (you know, the singer from the 50s that dated Burt Reynolds for awhile? At least I HOPE it was just a mispronunciation!)), that there would be a nuclear war sometime in the 80s (OOPs, missed that too!), and that it would have been a good idea if the allies had invaded the Soviet Union after the defeat of Germany in WWII. (Wouldn't THAT have been a brilliant move!) Whatever you might think of him, it's pretty clear the M wouldn't win any IQ tests and consistency in what he says or does is not one of his stronger points! JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 23:03:40 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: 'loaded last 50 messages' is wrong
Message:
Please note that the default setting for seeing the last 50 messages posted is wrong. Some new messages are not included, but can only be seen by clicking "click here to view all messages" near the bottom of the page. So everyone should be sure to click on "view all messages" so as not to miss postings. A bug in the software for sure.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 00:34:00 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: 'loaded last 50 messages' is wrong
Message:
Thank you for pointing this out, Bobby. It should say TOP 50 MESSAGES loaded or something like that. Maybe other groups don't have interminable threads like we do, who knows?
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 17:01:01 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: 'loaded last 50 messages' is wrong
Message:
I'm not exactly sure why some of the latest of the messages are not seen with the "last 50" but I fixed up my bookmark to automatically show all the messages. just use this line to get the forum with all messages: http://www.paradise-serve.com/powerforum/pwrforum.exe?who=anything&showall=ok the "showall=ok" at the end of the line is the code that shows all messages.
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 22:37:42 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: You are confused, Mili...
Message:
The bland yellow background of this 'Forum' page is the color of pus spilling out of the majority of posts here. I can’t help but feel disgusted as I read these ravings. I can’t help but feel that you are the kind of people that shouldn’t have been ‘premies’ to begin with - your motives for receiving Knowledge must have been as selfish as you reveal yourself to be now. This is a perfect example of "premie-hood" that is best left behind. These words came from "within inside of you" as an expression of the "good" that your devotion to MJ has worked in your life. Granted, you had to take down YET ANOTHER PAGE in order to continue with your personal charade of being "taught" something worth learning by your "Master". That would certainly explain your anger. But nothing is stopping you from telling MJ just how you feel about his demanding and controlling selfishness. Premies loved living in Ashrams and devoting their lives to spreading Knowledge. MJ took it away. Premies loved gathering together every evening with their brothers and sisters, sharing their wonderful experience and obeying MJ's own command to "Never delay in attending satsang". MJ took it away. Premies loved posting their heartfelt love of MJ on the web, hoping that he might just read their words and they would have at least THAT much contact with a man who lives behind walls that serve him to KEEP THEM AWAY. MJ took it away. The fact is, MJ doesn't approve of premies to doing ANYTHING that doesn't either: 1)Put a dollar in his pocket, or 2)Boost his fragile ego Name something, Mili. Just one thing he encourages premies to do that doesn't directly or indirectly meet the above criteria. And so premie.org is no more. What was said to cause Harlan to take down a page that he had defined to Jim as "mine, mine, mine"? A page valued by you and other devotees? What leverage did he apply? Other than "MJ doesn't approve"? You have every right to be angry. This is the place where masks fall off and, boy, you sure are ugly! I would never want to be like you. And yet you are.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 01:27:40 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: You are confused, Mili...
Message:
This is the place where masks fall off and, boy, you sure are ugly! I would never want to be like you. And yet you are. You mean confused? Nope, I don't think so. Things are clicking in my life. That was a lame tirade Brian. Try brushing up on your Jim stuff more. - Mili
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 07:16:12 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: You are confused, Mili...
Message:
You couldn't name one.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 07:29:37 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: You are confused, Mili...
Message:
You couldn't name one. How about: - I had a good night's sleep - The sun came out this morning - My job was confirmed by a telephone call this morning - I earn twice the average salary, but if I don't work I can live from my bank interest alone - I am healthy and happy - People (and girls) like to have me around - I receive a lot of cool E-mail every morning - I just had a great lunch - Now I'm going to drink my coffee Enough?
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 14:54:27 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: You are confused, Mili...
Message:
Name something, Mili. Just one thing he encourages premies to do that doesn't directly or indirectly meet the above criteria. Brian! You did not ask me, but I will answer your challenge anyhow. Maharaji encourages people to become real. He encourages them to focus within themselves, on their own consciousness: it is a place of stillness and beauty, purportedly within every human being; a place inaccessible to anyone except one's own self; a part of us which is not subject to manipulation or pollution by others. That's what he encourages; to know that, first-hand, for ourselves. If this were mind control, there would be mental exercises, chants, mantras; but there are none. If this were about money, there would be no access to that place inside without charge; but it is not so. One may vilify or deify Maharaji; without knowing that place one is no different from the other. The question is, has he shown you something of worth within yourself? I have heard him many times say that if this Knowledge has no value to a person, they should leave it. Many years ago I met a young woman who was an aspirant. Shortly after she received Knowledge, there was a big two-weekend special feature on cults and deprogramming in The Washington Post. Some local "expremies" had been interviewed for the article. Bob Mischler was mentioned, and I think some others who had parted ways with Maharaji. She was very shaken up, and telephoned some of those interviewed in the article and others to whom they referred her. She contacted everyone for whom she could get a name and number, people who had been high up in the DLM organization, and worked closely with Maharaji. All were glad to speak with her, and she heard alot of stuff. The very same as what many here are writing, except that she heard it directly. After speaking first hand with as many people as possible, and soaking up all they had to say, she told me this: "I looked at all that; and then I looked at myself; and I realized: who am I, to judge him? look what he has given to me." I tell you this: he has encouraged me to go inside. From that place within myself, clarity comes forth; and love, appreciation of my life, understanding, compassion, courage, joy. If I had money to give him, I would give it gladly, if it meant that he could get to more countries, give Knowledge to more people. Those who ascribe to Maharaji the motive of greed, are themselves believing that money will bring them clarity, happiness, self-love, self-respect, enjoyment of life, hope, security. This is my opinion. Maharaji has taken away nothing from me, except the manifold crutches I used in place of my own two feet. I am free to speak or write about Knowledge; I am free to gather with my friends; I am free to choose how I will spend my moments and my days; I am free to practice Knowledge or not; to see videos or not; to see Maharaji or not. I am free to walk away.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 15:44:58 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: You are confused, Mili...
Message:
You know, it's really amazing - here I am sitting in Zagreb, Croatia, I've never actually met Annie, but I know exactly what she is talking about! And I know what Vivekananda was talking about, too! That's an even greater distance in terms if time and space. I've also never felt compelled or obliged to: meditate, go to satsang or the programs, or (hard to believe, but true!) give money. And I did miss many of those. Even wasn't doing formal meditation for years at a time, I'm still irregular with it. But, this Knowledge is not an artifact - it's not man-made. It's life itself and life never stops, the meditation is so natural and sweet, and this thing just builds up bit by bit. No moment of clarity is lost, and it all accumulates in the present. It IS you. It's the living, breathing YOU. It is the deep, calm center of your being, the soul, the gentle depth. I find it amazing that someone would wish to ignore it, and condemn Maharaji for doing nothing more than speaking to people about it! He really does a great job of it, too. Really, there is no way you could tell I was doing meditation if you saw me in the street. Except, that you'd perhaps think - why is this guy so smug and chuckles to himself for no reason at all? Happens to me all the time - I get these funny looks from people. - Mili
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 18:17:46 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Annie
Subject: Re: You are confused, Mili...
Message:
I read what you wrote carefully...9 months ago I would have written the same, sincerely, I would have used words so similiar it's uncanny. My husband today would write the same, I'm almost positive because we shared similar feelings concerning Maharaji in the 16 years we've been together.person you quoted said 'look what he has given me'...the same techniques are available from others and even books and he himself says it isn't the techniques. So what is it he gave? Did he give encouragement? That's not what Knowledge is either. He teaches about Knowledge. But what does he give? Does he give the clarity that comes forth? The love and appreciation of life? Does he give this? you not make an effort to practice these techniques you could have gotten from others and even books? Was it not you giving to yourself by devoting this time to that place within? So what did he have to do with it?is the realization I came to. He has nothing to do with the beautiful, totally fulfilling and awe inspiring experience of my life. The freedom of realizing this was more like the bird being freed from it's cage ( in the story he loves to tell) than the duality of the heart and mind. In your mind, suffering...following your heart, bliss. why do those who have gotten close leave? It's a good question to consider. Getting as close as Bob Mishler did implies Maharaji trusted him very much. Bob saw that what Maharaji was doing was cashing in on the need people felt to follow. Maharaji nutured (against Bob's advice)the worship of him as a saviour. The ashrams, chanting of Arti, the drinking of water from bathing his feet, the kissing of his feet. It took many years before that changed. And still today...is what exists not a guru relationship with his devotees?...still darshan, still sitting on stage while premies sing, clap and dance etc. gives blessings...so does the Pope. The Pope is considered a to have a direct line to God, to be holy. But he isn't like Jesus who he waits for the second coming of. Does Maharaji give blessings because he is holy. Does he give what your heart is feeling? Is he the Master of the time like Jesus, Buddha and Krishna were? Does this mean he isn't just a teacher of meditation. I've heard him say he isn't. Then what is he? What does he give a person when they receive Knowledge? Knowledge of that perfection within everyone can access if they have the techniques. So what is Knowledge? It isn't the techniques. And the techniques aren't unique to Maharaji, so knowledge of them can't be what he gives. what does he give? Does he give something mystical, unexplainable, beyond words, magical, yet simple and natural. Is he human? Is he God in human form? You can see how he was called Lord of the Universe at one time. What is he? Does it matter if it's true (from numerous reliable sources now), just for a moment imagine if it were...that he is an alcoholic. Would that make any difference if he was capable of the incredable relationship that disciples of Jesus Buddha or Krishna spoke of? Would his well known love of driving at high speeds have any bearing on this? How about a love of expensive watches, cars, airplanes and many other modern tech toys? Would it matter that he lives in an expensive house in Malibu? Or that he had a family of 4 children during a time when the ashram premies were celibate supporting him with the money they earned? Would it matter that he supposedly has a mistress for many years now? Would it matter that he admits to a temper that is not unlike the rages his father was known for? Does it matter that he turned a blind eye to the goings on of sexual, physical and mental abuse that surrounded him by the hand picked instructors etc. because he wasn't all knowing? Do these have any bearing on him being someone capable of giving more than techniques of meditation...something else that is considered to be like be 'Saved'., these don't concern me like the fact that he continues to offer people something that initially seems to only be a way to go inside and experience who they really are (public presentation) but in a very subtle fashion, over time, it becomes obvious that the only way to go inside works is if Maharaji is your master, (aspirant presentation). Then, after getting Knowledge, he gives 'Blessings to all the premies' at certain aspirant and premie events. Then it becomes that you are dependent on his 'Grace'. The devotee he admires most is his father for his master. Or Kabir and Mira to name a few. And the devotion he admires isdevotion premies love to give. He doesn't go to this level at Public events. No question what premies give.what was it that Maharaji gives again?What he claims to give is what a person can experience without Maharaji. How is that possible?
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 19:13:36 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Annie
Subject: Annie...I'm sorry (Re: You are confused, Mili...)
Message:
Concerning my previous post to you above this one I'd like to apologize to you Annie (as well as anyone else who read it) but while I was writing my post I was disconnected and so my son copied and pasted to Wordpad and then we reposted but unfortunately it didn't include all my paragraphs and as well it left out words? So if anything is confusing I take full responsibility. Feel free to ask for clarification. Now about my spelling...how 'bout it David? Spell check? Just kiddin.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 20:05:56 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: You are confused, Mili...
Message:
I agree with you completly, Deena my love. What MJ "gives", he gives only after making certain that aspirants are so indoctrinated that they will give him credit for all the good things that life offers. Had Mata Ji drowned him like a puppy at birth, the world would still be filled with people whose enjoyment of life was owed to nobody. "His" gift, indeed! How laughable. As for what he gave me - the cold shoulder. Mahatma Rajeshwar, on the other hand, revealed meditation techniques to me that I am also free to use or not. The premies in nightly satsang gave to me their company, openness, and shared with me their experiences. I chose to follow up. MJ snubbed me along with the rest of his "devotees". Devotees who stood in darshan lines and donated hard-earned money in an attempt to "contribute" to the spreading of his vast girth and material greed. He is free to thank ME anytime he wishes, but I'm not gonna hold MY breath...
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 20:10:57 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: Deena@cableregina.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: You are confused, Mili...
Message:
'My love'....thanks Brian, that is great suck up language...I love it. And that's my suck up for the day. Actually, that's all I've been doing all day. Not that I need to. But it has provided me with amusement.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 21:12:55 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Deena
Subject: Re: You are confused (Re: You are confused, Mili...)
Message:
I think I have expressed all I have to say. The truth is, as you stated it Deena, none of that makes a difference to me, true or false. He has inspired me, and consistently encouraged me to be true to myself. What Knowledge "is" I do not know. I don't feel a need of definitions and analysis. I have been where you are, as you would say. I might have made the choices you are making, but I made my own. I don't want to debate. But one point I wish to make is this: it seems to me that many hold Maharaji responsible for the choices they themselves have made. There are many people who have been with Maharaji, up close and in person, for many years. They have not left. Do present the truth. This is not a bandwagon, this is your life for crying out loud.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 21:33:46 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Annie
Subject: Re: You are confused (Re: You are confused, Mili...)
Message:
Annie,I understand that you don't want to debate. But what do you mean by 'Do present the truth.' I always have. Are you saying I've been lying? I haven't lied about one thing that I've learned during the time I was very involved in service and I've been as sincere as I can possiblily be in sharing this information. I do assume total responsibility for my choices. But I also hold Maharaji responsibile for his. If you see people are putting you in the same light as Jesus, Buddha and Krishna and you allow this, then what responsibility do you have in it all? Yes, this is my life, finally. Now I'm not a premie...not a devotee, not someone dedicated to serving my master, I don't have a secret that makes me part of an elite group which receives blessings no one else merits. I am free. And this is not a bandwagon. This is my life and I love it. I thought I was as content and happy as I could ever be when I was with Maharaji. Now I discover a whole world of contentment and happiness without him.
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 22:29:25 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: BBurke?
Subject: About Larry the Cook
Message:
"...In his connection with his friend inside of him, it was him,the spirit(breath), and the reality of a conscious friend inside of him." At times this Forum reminds me of a strange hall of mirrors at a carnival, or the other side of the looking glass from Alice in Wonderland: [eg Alice on trial for thieving the queen's tarts, and the prosecutor asks her how the tarts tasted; but I didn't steal them! says she; just answer the question! they reply.] Your words -- friend in my heart -- are the same words that came to me, many years ago, when I was trying to explain to my [then 4 year old] daughter about how I experienced God. Yet that perception did not exist for me prior to Knowledge and Maharaji; it has been via Knowledge that I have experienced this. And although Burke's law says two things can occupy the same space, I have an increasingly magian sense that there are not two, but one; that friend and I are not separate.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 01:10:47 (EST)
Poster: white rabbit
Email: B-male
To: St. Annie and?
Subject: Annie the chef (Re: About Larry the Cook)
Message:
Hello Annie, You wrote to me way back when on the other site and my computer went down for weeks. Which was good actually. But I did want to be courteous and respond. So, from memory, here goes. You said you have three girls and thier ages were 7-12. Thats great to have girls but I would go nuts because girls are ready for a true relationship with a guy from about fifth grade on and guys are ready after college, if that. Meanwhile, at all the holidays the relatives come over and torture the girls by saying 'well, is there someone special in your life?' they don't pester the boys with that. If the girl does get a boyfriend he's an immature user at best. She gets her heart broken ect. I have very frankly alerted my 16 yr olds' girlfriend to this and she was mature enough to have the discussion. The 20 yr old is decent with women and now has a virgin for a girlfriend, but his first long term relationship was with a girl he picked because she was real big on contact sports. I was really afraid of having one more kid to take care of and told them my last two kids were concieved while using those apparently not 100% effective contraceptive methods. They said yeah yeah we arent doing anything. So anyway, the 5 and 7 yr olds have gotten the respect girls rap out of me a few times already. Of course as women get older, they can certainly ---well, nevermind, The thing about Kabir saying ;we haven't gone far, and me saying maybe he means ALL of us is because during that week I was sort of wrestleing with that issue. The part where I said 'snip-May you never wake up to that waiting surprise' was where I wrote a long thing and then I realized you didn't bring any of that up and it was just me wandering and it wasn't necessarily fair for me to embroil you in my stuff when you were a new visiter to our wild and sometimes fierce discussions. Katie has worked long and hard to bring in her idea of a kinder gentler website, before, it was mostly guys and guys can easily get real rough and since everybody seemed ok with the intensity, the intensity hit some wild heights. And although it was a real battle of ideas, there was certainly some great humor throughout. Of course not everyone enjoys sarcasm, but if you did, the sarcasm was halarious sometimes. Probably the reason things run so hot so easily is that this is such a core issue. Like your above post, I don't deny maharaji and knowledge had a good side. Even if I grant him innocence for ALL the pre 90's stuff, and I watched the mid life crises unfolding in the 90's, And say I forgave and forgot the things he said in 96, and assumed he got the message recently, Still, I would be left with needing to figure out the reality and the best view to have to really live to the fullest. He could be of use to the world but he himself has to figure out the reality and the best view and although he says some right on things, since his understanding of this power of life is incomplete and at present flawed, his usefulness to me on the issue of really understanding this life --well, he is trying to figure it out himself and I can't wait around for his learning curve when mine is revving on the launch pad. It is possible that he will live to see the day clearly, but I may not live that long so I have to do it for myself, with 'a little help from my friends'. I am really glad Jim brought up the DNA issue. Mili is tough as nails and has a great heart. I better not get started, it's late and I can't spin off in that direction. I actually wanted to respond to your magian sense, but that can be tomorrow. goodnight
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 08:11:18 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: About Larry the Cook
Message:
'...In his connection with his friend inside of him, it was him,the spirit(breath), and the reality of a conscious friend inside of him.' At times this Forum reminds me of a strange hall of mirrors at a carnival, or the other side of the looking glass from Alice in Wonderland: [eg Alice on trial for thieving the queen's tarts, and the prosecutor asks her how the tarts tasted; but I didn't steal them! says she; just answer the question! they reply.] Let me guess who the Prosecutor is - Jim Heller, by any chance? Premie: 'But, I feel this bliss in my soul. Its the most beautiful thing I ever experienced!' Prosecutor: 'No, damn you, it's an ILLUSION, you little shitty cult member. Go out there and be miserable like the rest of us. And don't give me that SMILE. That really pisses me off!'
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 09:51:52 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Annie and Burke
Subject: Re: About Larry the Cook
Message:
Hi Annie and Burke - I don't really understand the Through the Looking Glass Analogy, Annie, except I know that sometimes when one is attempting to talk to Burke it sure feels that way... Is Mili's explanation below correct? Also, Burke, there is a Saint Larry the Cook (he got broiled on a gridiron), but I think that the person you are quoting is Brother Lawrence - from the meditations of Brother Lawrence. This is a pretty good book if one can handle all the Christian (yeshuan) stuff - sometimes I have trouble with that.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 13:43:10 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: About Larry the Cook
Message:
I don't really understand the Through the Looking Glass Analogy, Annie, except I know that sometimes when one is attempting to talk to Burke it sure feels that way... Is Mili's explanation below correct? I had nothing in particular in mind with the analogy; only sometimes that what appears to be reality makes little sense, or is backwards, or inside out; or flips suddenly from one thing to another, much like the events and characters in a creative dream.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 14:06:46 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: About Larry the Cook
Message:
I don't really understand the Through the Looking Glass Analogy, Annie, except I know that sometimes when one is attempting to talk to Burke it sure feels that way... Is Mili's explanation below correct? I had nothing in particular in mind with the analogy; only sometimes that what appears to be reality makes little sense, or is backwards, or inside out; or flips suddenly from one thing to another, much like the events and characters in a creative dream. This is the Internet - I'm sure we can all agree that it's a poor substitute for the real world, no? But, anything is possible here, only it all tastes and feels the same - like nothing. No taste, no smell, no shape. If you want to, you can be any number of personas. This is the place where the past is the only present - and most of the stuff here is dwelling on the past. It's like an Akashic record, almost, filled with corpses of dead thoughts. And after a while it starts reeking of a graveyard, too. Or like a really boring, musty library. Lemme out of here, I need some air! Katie was right when she said people are not always what they seem when they write. However, when you read someone's posts long enough, you can get a feel for that person, or better, for his mind. I get bored with it quickly, especially if the other person's mind is like a broken record - repeating the same ideas over and over again. And, of course, it's impossible to convince anyone of anything here. Everybody is entrenched in their own stuff and giving off smoke signals of their own. In Croatia we would say that everyone is skinning their own goat. BTW, do you realize that Mji actually followed Bob Mishler's advice and made a few good investments in real estate? And tore down the personality cult himself? (Ex-Mahatma Ji's or Mole's own words). I think he went on a diet and lost some weight, too. But - whatever that guy does is not right for some people, right...
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Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 at 15:20:57 (EST)
Poster: Yves Pageau
Email: ypageau@videotron.ca
To: Everyone
Subject: Dear Jim Heller
Message:
Dear Jim. First I just recalled who you are. My memeory had you mixed with a chap in Toronto. Then I read your posts to Annie Wood and light - so to speak - dawned on me. Glad to hear about you and I certainly hope you improved your musicianship. I didn't. Second: I would like to react to your ways of telling everyone this, that and the other thing. Some of us may be fond of Guru-ji while others - I'm one of those - don't give a dime. I personally feel uneasy with your trying to force your opinions and start what looks like a war on everyone who do not share your views. This is exactly what I disliked with Guru-ji and I'm afraid you'd be doing the same. I wished you'd tell us only about your own anger and have enough respect to let everyone else decide for themselves what's good. I hope I did not hurt your feelings here. I have a hint about how you feel but I fear what you're doing won't do a thing but antagonize folks who don't need to be. In 1995, When I last saw Guru-ji, I met Ruth Dworkin who's also from your part of the country. If you ever bump her, say something nice for me, would you?
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 12:55:07 (EST)
Poster: oh that naughty
Email: 666
To: Yves Pageau
Subject: beezeljim (Re: Dear Jim Heller)
Message:
If you go through the archives and take the whole tour I don't think you will feel that way about ole saint james. like you said-'looks like', this little group has run the full gamut of interactions and Jim's outlook has never been a mystery and he has only responded half the time and the other half he was reading what others wrote to him. You can't call jtuff or mili or cd or bobby or op or whoever,pushovers. They come roaring back and make good points and Jim and like minded thinkers respond. How you can say 'like a war on everyone who does not share your views. This is exactly what I disliked with guru-ji andI'm afraid you'd be doing the same thing.' Now, in this forum, we previously and still have a very reasonable impulse to take what someone says and pull it apart to help show the person why what someone says in wrong in some way and it is an education process for all. the postings here became pretty damn exacting and clear and sharp. The battles were about perception and what is able to stand up in a hot spotlight. Casual observers probably were a bit taken aback. This was never Jim's world and I can't identify any clones. Since when did maharaji make war on everyone who did not share his views? He used other methods to get people to view things his way. See what I mean? your comments are a little well, lets say, you could stand to try to express it again another way, and we will show you how to improve THAT post as well I'm sure. Unless the 'kinder gentler' website gets us to go- well, I think I know what he MEANS. And we let it stand. Which is not the way this crowd is used to doing things for the sake of having a real good forum. If people poke around at our logic it is a form of careing as well as quest for understanding. Just shrug off the sarcasm. I don't pick up anger in Jim's posts, he can be fiercely combative, but thats different. I am sure you didn't hurt his feelings, others have tried much more skillfully than you and haven't made a dent.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 13:30:26 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: oh that naughty
Subject: Re: beezeljim (Re: Dear Jim Heller)
Message:
Very well put. I could't have put it better myself. I draw the line with premies that use vulgar inuendos...Mili comes to mind. This is something I've never seen Jim stoop to. I don't get this bit about Jim being the daddy of us all? Everyone here seems so unique to me. Where did this Jim clone crap come from anyways? Am I supposedly one? How ya doin Burke, I presume?
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 14:31:34 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Yves Pageau
Subject: Re: Dear Jim Heller
Message:
I personally feel uneasy with your trying to force your opinions and start what looks like a war on everyone who do not share your views. This is exactly what I disliked with Guru-ji and I'm afraid you'd be doing the same. I wished you'd tell us only about your own anger and have enough respect to let everyone else decide for themselves what's good. I hope I did not hurt your feelings here. I have a hint about how you feel but I fear what you're doing won't do a thing but antagonize folks who don't need to be. Personally I agree with Yves assessment of Jim's behavior very strongly. I wasn't going to say anything, but Burke and Deena are disagreeing with what Yves says and so I feel I must offer my own statement. I have to say that I find Jim exceedingly arrogant and I tell him so to his face (at least what I can see of it here on the net.) I don't often speak like this about others, but to me Jim has made no bones about his willingness to disrespect for others who don't share his particular views and biases.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 14:49:30 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: beezeljim (Re: Dear Jim Heller)
Message:
Very well put. I could't have put it better myself. I draw the line with premies that use vulgar inuendos...Mili comes to mind. This is something I've never seen Jim stoop to. I don't get this bit about Jim being the daddy of us all? Everyone here seems so unique to me. Where did this Jim clone crap come from anyways? Am I supposedly one? How ya doin Burke, I presume? Oh yeah - 'fat little fuck, lying motherfucker, little slimeball, slut for that guru, worm, moron, etc.' - just figures of speech right? Public accusations of adultery - just naughty speculation, right? And you, Deena, your little tirade of 'little maji and puters' - you are simply sick, a normal person would never come up with that. There's something wrong with your brain biochemistry, Deena. You should get some professional help. Yecch!
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 15:51:18 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: beezeljim (Re: Dear Jim Heller)
Message:
And you, Deena, your little tirade of 'little maji and puters' - you are simply sick, a normal person would never come up with that. There's something wrong with your brain biochemistry, Deena. You should get some professional help. Yecch! Dear Mili - I think Deena was joking, and I thought it was funny, not sick. Deena does appear to be angry at Maharaji at times, but I think that's healthy. (But maybe I'm not a normal person either, and Deena and I can get a discount at the psychotherapist if we come in together. How about it, Deena? Anyone else want to come with us? Maybe we can get a group rate.) At any rate, your animosity towards Deena is not becoming to either you or Maharaji.
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 16:08:06 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: beezeljim (Re: Dear Jim Heller)
Message:
This made me remember Deena's little cool example of Hitler's secretary. Equating Maharaji with Hitler. That's court material for defamation if there ever was some! Deena, do you realize that I have actually had uncles and aunts PERISH in concentration camps here in WWII??? Take it from me, Maharaji is the exact antipode of Hitler, and stands for the preciousness of this human life and NOT the rational extermination of 'inferior' people and the evolution of super-men (by cloning I suppose). Just as Shri Hans was frowned upon in India by the orthodox Brahmins for giving Knowledge to people regardless of caste. Deena, biochemistry or hormones, shame on you, really. - Mili
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 19:40:00 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: beezeljim (Re: Dear Jim Heller)
Message:
I'm breaking tradition here to reply to you Mili. I need to apologize, Jim did say some vulgar things too. It's been a long time since I've read him. You're calling my son a masturbating moron was what came to memory. I have family members who died in concentration camps too. My father was one of the people who helped release them. Yes, I was born a jew too. So yes, I am tragicall familiar with the horrors of Hilter. Hitler was a meglomaniac and so is Maharaji. Definition I looked up said that it is a mental disorder where one thinks himself great or exalted. There. Please sue me Maharaji and take me to court before Larry King retires!
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Date: Tues, Dec 2, 1997 at 19:52:46 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Dear Jim Heller
Message:
I agree with you too Bobby. No, I'm not trying to suck up to everyone on the forum. Well, yes I am. What I mean is that I understand what you are saying (which means I do understand Yve's post and I'm sorry if it seemed like I was critical. It's just that I feel at this point that everyone's slant is worth looking at and when I do I see that it's like, yes, Jim's style has a place because if nothing else, (sorry Jim I can't say you are always correct as much as I'd like to suck up)he allows others to feel they can spill there guts here and anything goes. Yes, even your vulgarity Mili...because this forum is a place where rage, indignation, and suffering can be vented as well as humour (not everyone has the same sense of it though) thus sharing sincerely with each other. Why are we here? Why does Mili browse here? To say to me 'shame on you' Why does Brian come here? To hurt those people who don't share his sense of humour? I don't know why anyone else frequents here. I come here because I need to.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 00:08:24 (EST)
Poster: beezilbub
Email: the tree is up
To: Deena
Subject: beezeljim (Re: Dear Jim Heller)
Message:
How is your fiber... doing? It's a beastly ailment. My wife and others are still heavily affected by it. At least you are cruising in style these days! and your son?
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 00:23:48 (EST)
Poster: dear me
Email: 10 point buck
To: Bobby
Subject: Dear ?Jim Heller (Re: Dear Jim Heller)
Message:
Hi R&B, During all the fracas, my possibly incorrect assumption was that the blasts were not personal but a war of logics and ideas. Maybe I would have felt different if I was in the thick of it like you guys. I was sort of blabbing away in my own world most of the time. Still I guess. My next post might be down your alley. I ran headlong into Huston Smith today, it was great timing and I'll try to post that tomorrow.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 08:38:15 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: dear me
Subject: Re: Dear ?Jim Heller (Re: Dear Jim Heller)
Message:
Hi R&B, During all the fracas, my possibly incorrect assumption was that the blasts were not personal but a war of logics and ideas. Maybe I would have felt different if I was in the thick of it like you guys. I was sort of blabbing away in my own world most of the time. Still I guess. My next post might be down your alley. I ran headlong into Huston Smith today, it was great timing and I'll try to post that tomorrow. Bill (I assume you are Bill Burke by your style), I took Mr. Heller's words very personal indeed. I think that as humans we are each unique combinations of passion and impartial structure. Our passions, our feelings charge our ideas with energy. I think of my most deeply considered ideas as close to who I am. I know that ultimately I am none of these ideas, but I think that it is important to feel. You must have missed the posts where I spoke directly to what came up for me with Jim. It was important for me to speak what I needed to say and I'm glad I did. I realize that my perspectives on Jim have a lot to do with who I am and my personal history, but at least one person found my words relevant. I believe that Jim did too, although he did not publically share his own vulnerability.
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Date: Wed, Dec 3, 1997 at 11:21:40 (EST)
Poster: is there or isn't there a
Email: croked
To: Bobby
Subject: Vulnerable Jimmykins? (Re: Dear Jim Heller)
Message:
Hi R&B, During all the fracas, my possibly incorrect assumption was that the blasts were not personal but a war of logics and ideas. Maybe I would have felt different if I was in the thick of it like you guys. I was sort of blabbing away in my own world most of the time. Still I guess. My next post might be down your alley. I ran headlong into Huston Smith today, it was great timing and I'll try to post that tomorrow. Bill (I assume you are Bill Burke by your style), I took Mr. Heller's words very personal indeed. I think that as humans we are each unique combinations of passion and impartial structure. Our passions, our feelings charge our ideas with energy. I think of my most deeply considered ideas as close to who I am. I know that ultimately I am none of these ideas, but I think that it is important to feel. You must have missed the posts where I spoke directly to what came up for me with Jim. It was important for me to speak what I needed to say and I'm glad I did. I realize that my perspectives on Jim have a lot to do with who I am and my personal history, but at least one person found my words relevant. I believe that Jim did too, although he did not publically share his own vulnerability. Hi Rockin' Bob I remember your posts and I commented on that one in particular during the DNA discussions. I didn't know what to say directly to you at the time. I saw JW kick in and then my computer went out. I don't think Jim is vulnerable. Maybe before, and maybe later, but he himself was primarily battleing ideas. The personal stuff came in during the heat of the battle I think. Probably the only thing that could faze him about this forum would be a cyber suicide. And I don't see um, any ah, signs of ah, that um, sort of possibility here. During some era's of my life nothing could bum me out either. In fact I was known for handleing relentless difficulties and problems without feeling bad. And I live with 6 other people and three of them run very hot and two are in pain and REAL crabby. No one has died in decades and so I actually have never felt what that might be like. But the one thing I wasn't able to handle well was THIS little transition. People around me kept going 'what's WITH you?'. Last night there was this great comedy hall of fame show and Roseanne said at the end 'when god closes one door he always opens up another' Now maybe like dna, it's not really god per se who closes any particular door. I wonder how the 'magian sense' angle views it? Annie?
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