Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 12 | |
From: Jun 13, 1998 |
To: Jun 20, 1998 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 11:55:21 (EST)
From: Paul Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Adi Da (the Da Avatar) Message: My wife was in the Drs. office yesterday and picked up a broschure entitled 'I have come for the sake of all beings' by Adi Da (the Da Avatar). This guy is saying stuff that would make premies cringe but oddly enough they are able to ignore Ms underlying message which has always been the same. Some samples from the brochure: 'The mature sacrificial relationship to the spiritual master is absolutely lawful and necessary. Those who object to that relationship might as well object to the relationship between the earth and the sun.' 'The way of the heart is extremely simple...it is simply self-surrendering devotional Communion with Me and receiving My Divine Blessing. I am the instruction. Simply surrender to Me and receive My Blessing is sufficient for practice of the Way of the Heart.' 'The force of God pours out of my body all the time...Give me your attention at any moment and you will receive this grace. It is pouring through this Body-Mind.' 'Love not reason, should make decisions. Decisions based on reason and not love are karmic. Therefore let the heart be your intellegence.' This guy has centers around the world and a web site(I haven't checked out yet. Paul Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 12:23:55 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Paul Subject: Good ol' Franklin, again Message: Paul: This sounds like the infamous Franklin Jones, or 'Da Free John' as he prefers to be called. This guy is completely and totally vile. David Lane considers him in the top five offenders, if I'm not mistaken. His crimes are described on Lane's website. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 16:47:32 (EST)
From: Paul Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Good ol' Franklin, again Message: Scott: just checked out his web site. Quite an elaborate cult with various levels of initiation and many fancy names.Is is amazing that he can still present himself in such absolute terms. His site is: www.adidam.org Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 13:10:54 (EST)
From: Nobody #9 Email: None To: Paul Subject: Good ol' Franklin, again Message: Wow! That's a website! www.adidam.org That is way too cool. (What really should be said here is the dialogue from Dennis Hopper in Apocalypse Now as he describes Colonel Kurtz (aka Marlon Brando.) I mean this guy has the total Guts to say it how it is. I mean, he's hanging out there nearly naked with his huge gut for millions of people to see and gawk at. I mean, man, he's the true American success story. Cross culturally transformed a white boy from the suburbs of New Jersey into a New Age Avatar being worshipped and sucked off on an island in the South Pacific by thousands of devotees. I mean, man, he's given these people something to live for. I mean, man, he's given me something to live for. I understand now. It's really simple. I am GOD. Send me your money and I will ensure that really bad things don't happen to you too often. P.S. This is probably why BM doesn't have a website. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 12:27:00 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Paul Subject: Adi Da (the Da Avatar) Message: Paul, is this guy the same as Bubba Free John (aka Da Free John)? He's been around for ages, if so, and has had his fair share of controversies, also, of the sexual and financial type. I believe he's a westerner who grew up in New Jersey or somewhere like that, but metamorphosed into Da Free John after going to India. He, like BM, has made a very successful living out of the guru business. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 16:50:50 (EST)
From: Paul Email: None To: Joy Subject: Adi Da (the Da Avatar) Message: Joy: His site (see above post to scott)does mention he is a westerner'-the one prophesized to come.' No mention of Da free John, I'm sure revisionism isn't exclusive to DLM. Paul Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 17:37:05 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Paul Subject: Adi Da (the Da Avatar) Message: Paul: Franklin Jones has changed his name numerous times, partly because he has ongoing problems with the IRS, and possibly with the FBI. He is also grossly overweight, approaching the mass of a small elephant as I understand it. He lives on a private island somewhere. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 18:42:04 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Adi Da (the Da Avatar) Message: Scott, I believe the private island is somewhere in the South Pacific; he has also had numerous sex scandals and has a sort of harem living with him. I had a boyfriend back around 1983 who had been to one of his 'satsangs' and Free John told him he couldn't accept him as his disciple because his ego was too big. Hurt his feelings, imagine having a so-called master say that to you. So I think this Free John character is somewhere around the level of where BM resides in my book, which ain't very high up. But at least Free John is up front and explains about his devotional trip, whereas BM tries to masquerade as being something he's not, while underneath lurks the 'surrender to the master/I am God' routine. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 20:02:03 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Joy Subject: Adi Da (the Da Avatar) Message: Joy: I see your point about M being more covert, but think that Mr. Jones goes way past M in terms of outright moral degeneration. In fact, I don't think they are even close. For M it occassionally looks as though he goes through some sort of inner struggle, which he usually loses. Franklin has no such second thoughts. Jones is also a writer of some ability, and his following has been largely attracted as a result of his books. He COULD do other things and still be successfull, but he chooses the guru thing out of outright moral decay. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 23:55:15 (EST)
From: david f. Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com To: Scott T. Subject: Adi Da (the Da Avatar) Message: Scott, Joy, et al, yes, jones, bubba free john, and adi da are one in the same. He is one of the more colorful characters out there, and usually poses in briefs or a loincloth with a rather intense or mystical stare. He's got an island, money, and people that support him. I do think he has probably developed some stronge psycic (sp) powers, but as I've said before, this is one of the effects of doing concentration practice. I tend to think of these things as sort of the bad side affects of taking spiritual medicine. Unfortunately, it can be so seductive, that we mistake it for the cure. It's funny to here about him rejecting someone because his ego was 'too big.' I mean are we talking acreage or weight here? What a strange concept. What's interesting to me is that he seems pretty out there with all this stuff -- he used to have pictures of him and his harem in his book for instince. I've never been able to read his books (thank goodness) because he is WAY thick and describes spiritaul experience in such convoluted language. best wishes, david f. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 11:38:20 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: david f. Subject: Adi Da (the Da Avatar) Message: Psychic powers?Please. So the guy has contemplated his navel so much that he now has a staring problem.Big deal. It reminds me of cheesy movies from the 30's with a svengali type guy who looks like an exagerrated 'Fagen'(From Oliver Twist)swinging an object slowly in front of someone saying 'You are getting veeeryy sleeeepy....veeeerry sleeeeeeepy....' It's all just so ridiculous and I'm amazed that as a youth I was ever impressed by these sorts of manipulating characters.How stupid was I?actually no;I wasn't stupid.I just wanted magic to be real.Hey,I've got an over active imagination.santa Claus was taken away from me and I wanted him back.Very human-a little immature and well....dumb,but very human. I read some of the stuff on that guys site and i mean it is such an absolute crock that it's amazing he's as successful as people are saying.It's so obvious:Here's a westerner who figured out that a lot of people go searching for these sorts of windmills and hey 'What a Business!'.Got to give him credit for one thing though: He makes absolutely no bones about the fact that he's god.It's right there on his site.I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.sincere people get hoodwinked by these manipulators everyday and they're all laughing all the way to the bank.I urge everyone to check out that guys website because it's like a blue-print for how to manipulate vulnerable 'seekers' into believing you're god 101. That guy seems tuned right in to all the nonsense and knows exactly what a 'true seeker'(sucker?)wants to hear.And I mean a TRUE SEEKER.Yes...if you're a true seeker then you know who you are don't you?You don't need THEM to tell you otherwise do you?YOU know better don't you?YOU'VE been looking for me ALL YOUR LIFE haven't you? Well look no further,just rejoice!I am here! O.K. enough of this rant,gotta go.Please check out that site though-it's truly a classic! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 15:03:53 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: bftb Subject: Adi Da (the Da Avatar) Message: Nice post, bifty-bee, You inspired me to check it out. What a hoot. Did you read the link about the dreaded gom-ba? (not sure I spelled that correctly) He had me agreeing with somethings there (how we are not born in original sin, etc.) then goes completely INSANE by explaining that I will never be independent. Of course I am independent. It would be funny except that people actually follow this person. What a creep and to think I never knew he was out there. Glad my relatives didn't follow him... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 15:20:34 (EST)
From: Adi Da Email: None To: VP Subject: Adi Da (the Da Avatar) Message: How dare you laugh at me!! I am he that IS!!! and always AM!!! and forever will BE!!! I am GOD!! I curse THEE and do now declare that in exactly 100 years NONE of you wise-ass negativos will be breathing the sacred breath of life in your current human form!!! SINcerely, God -confused the hell out of the human race in the late 20th century Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 15:50:41 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Adi Da Subject: Adi Da (the Da Avatar) Message: Your 100 year prediction was incredible...how DID you ever figure that out???? Tell JHSmyth hello for me :) VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 15:41:05 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: VP Subject: Adi Da (the Da Avatar) Message: No I didn't get to that one yet.Sounds like fun though.My favorite so far was this:(it's from the 'who is adiddas' or whatever his name is-the caps are like this on the site btw)Actually I just started to type the quote but have decided not to in case the guy is as litigious as scientology.I'd win quickly of course;but I don't need the hassle.He has a wild 'eternal copyright' type thing on that site. So Just click on the part titled 'Who is Adiddas?' and howl away. .....my favorite is the last 2 sentences ending with ...Always Already The Case. There's so much left to read on that crazy site.I'm looking forward to it because it's even funnier then the church of the subgenius website. And this one's not joking! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 20, 1998 at 09:43:17 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: Independence Message: VP: Well, I'd say that it's possible to be completely independent... but who would you talk to... and in what language? We've all relinquished part of our independence, but since when is independence an absolute good? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 22:16:07 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: Everyone Subject: BM is the Real Bongo Message: The more I hear it, the more annoyed I become at this derogatory term used by BM's organization for certain less-desirable types of premies, 'Bongo'. I used to live in the ashram with a girl who was considered 'bongo' and she was very sweet, and extremely dedicated to BM, she just had some psychological problems. I would guess that most of the premies designated 'bongo' love BM a lot and have devoted their lives to him, and for their time and efforts he and his security henchmen stick this negative label on them. I thought Knowledge of God was supposed to make you see the 'oneness' of all people, and have love for each other, not become haughty and judgmental and insulting to people who have emotional problems and aren't just like you. I can understand that, in the interests of security, certain people can be classified as risks, but to stick a derogatory label on them when they are sincere in their devotion is, to me, the height of boorishness. As far as I'm concerned, there's only one Bongo in the organization, and he's sitting up on the stage. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 22:30:48 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btnternet.com To: Joy Subject: BM is the Real Bongo Message: I never liked that word 'bongo' and I could never understand why the name of an African drum would be used as a term of derision. A touch of racism there perhaps. I have a vivid memory of singing arti one night in an ashram and I just cracked up and knelt on the floor, weeping. I truly believed that Maharaji was the Lord then and I was just looking at his picture and crying. And then I saw this super premie giving me such a look of disgust, I'll never forget it. It occured to me then that there was something very, very wrong that was happening. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 22:45:56 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Sir David/Joy Subject: BM is the Real Bongo Message: Is 'Bongo' the same thing as a 'fringe' premie?? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 23:27:21 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: VP Subject: BM is the Real Bongo Message: Is 'Bongo' the same thing as a 'fringe' premie?? I think a 'bongo' premie is one that doesn't tow the official DLM/EV line of how to behave. For example, since nowadays premies aren't supposed to give satsang and videos are to be introduced with canned written introductions, a 'bongo' premie might be one that can't be relied upon to follow the rules. Some people, in my experience, were labeled 'bongo' because there were exceptionally non-conformist. They were quickly labeled and marginalized. But, mostly, a 'bongo' premie was one who usually had some psychological problems that resulted in unpredictable behavior. Sometimes they were considered a security risk. Maharaji himself and the security around him, regularly used the term. As most of us can atest, BM's cult attracted a large number of such people, as you might expect. A 'finge' premie was anyone who had received knowledge, but didn't come around to satsang much, often didn't go to programs, and rarely contributed money. Unlike 'bongo' premies, these premies were probably more sane than any of the rest of us. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 23:55:27 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: JW Subject: Bongo vs Fringe subtleties... Message: JW you should write the Websters of premiedom. I was all set to explain the differences between bongo and fringe and you did so perfectly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 01:00:49 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: JW Subject: BM is the Real Bongo Message: Thanks, JW. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 09:47:50 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: BM is the Real Bongo Message: JW: So, what are 'beyond the fringe' premies? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 12:53:59 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: BM is the Real Bongo Message: So, what are 'beyond the fringe' premies? Scott, I think if you look in a mirror you will see one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 00:35:57 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Joy Subject: Bongo is as Bongo does Message: Joy: I must admit, however, that I knew quite a few very sincere premies who any security organization would justifiably regard as a threat. My dear friend Rita Higgins used to talk all the time about kidnapping Maharaji, and she wasn't kidding. If she could have drummed up support she'd have done it. (Well, she was from New Jersey after all.) On second thought, it might have been interesting. I'd sure have a great story to tell on this forum! -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 13:52:42 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Bongo is as Bongo does Message: Miami was a magnet for 'bongo premies.' They came from all over the world and lived there in the late 70s and early 80s, including on the streets, because BM had relocated there and he was having festivals there on a regular basis. I actually liked a lot of these so-called 'bongo premies,' but many were considered security threats, many were monitored at programs or whenever BM was around, etc. There were also hundreds of premies from foreign countries living in Miami illegally. The Miami satsang hall was in a big, old, spooky church on Biscayne Boulevard, in an bad neighborhood, accross the street from the International House of Pancakes. Up to 1000 people attended satsang every night. We had a small grocery and cafe in the basement of the church and the money went to support BM and the cult. We allowed some of the more bongo street premies to eat for free sometimes because I was concerned they were going hungry. I was told in no uncertain terms by John Hampton (remember him, he was kind of like a drill seagrent in the marines) that BM had to come first, and that I should trust BM to take care of his premies and we shouldn't give away food if it meant less was going to BM. What a jerk. Later, I was informed that the FBI had agents in the satang hall because so much drug trafficing was going on there. The premies were also flying in drugs on premie charter flights from South America to those programs in the Kissimee swamp near Orlando. It got SO bad, that this was one of the reasons that those big festivals were discontinued. It was just getting too hot. JW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 22:15:21 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Everyone Subject: Savaged by a dead sheep Message: As I sit here in the early hours, doing my paper work and eating my 'Love Mix' tropical fruit & nuts I am reminded of what one of our great British Labour politicians, Dennis Healey said about being critisised by the then Chancellor, Sir Jeffrey Howe. Dennis Healey said that Howe's attack on him was 'Like being savaged by a dead sheep.' Lately I've noticed on this forum that there has been much paranoia about retribution from premies or even some sort of divine retribution from Maharaji. Well, in my experience, the few times I have encountered premies since I officially stopped believing in Maharaji; those premies protestations and arguments to me were merely irritating. They were certainly nothing to be afraid of. And the worst any premie has done to me is to 'Send me to Coventry' (meaning, ignore me). I have read a lot of fear in some of the posts recently. Fear that Maharaji is more than just a man and that he may evoke some terrible tradgedy upon people who leave him. To be quite frank, I really don't believe that Maharaji himself would want such an illusion to be perpetrated. There is nothing to be afraid of. There is no bogey man who's gonna get you. Maharaji is just as much in a dillema as some premies are. By setting himself apart from people he has made it very difficult for himself. Of all the thousands and thousands of people who received his knowledge and left Maharaji (which was most) nothing undue or awful happened to them, no more than what happens to anyone. Perhaps one day, Maharaji will step down off his throne and have a complete change of heart. He's nearly done this a few times but changed his mind at the last moment. Perhaps it's too late for him to do that now but if he did, then people really would see that he is just another guy and there was nothing there to be afraid of. Bill Burkes posts are very good at showing this. SO what is there to be afraid of? Just nightmares, that's all it is. It really is just a bad dream. You will come out of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 23:35:06 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Savaged by a dead sheep Message: Thank you, David. I think when people first leave the cult there is all kinds of mixed emotions, fears and excitement. Those fears get directed a lot of places, including at possible retribution. I think people who have been away awhile don't feel that way. I know I don't. But I am interested in one thing you said: Perhaps one day, Maharaji will step down off his throne and have a complete change of heart. He's nearly done this a few times but changed his mind at the last moment. Can you elaborate? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 08:39:55 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: JW Subject: Savaged by a dead sheep Message: Joe; I was refering to the time in the mid seventies when Maharaji started to let it be known that he was just a 'humanitarian leader' and not God incarnate. At the time, I just thought it was premiespeak and I never doubted that he was the Lord. According to Bob Mishler, Maharaji soon reversed this idea because less money came in when he demoted himself from the God status. I believe during the mid eighties, Maharaji decided to quit the 'I am God' trip for good. However, it seems to have crept back in again and certainly he does not dissuade premies from seeing him as the Lord. The devotional music illustrates this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 09:37:38 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Savaged by a dead Lord Message: I would say that inviting people to kiss his feet is not a good way to look like a regular humanitarian leader! in western countries anyway. I don't know about India. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 12:36:27 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Savaged by a dead sheep Message: Yes, I found it was the devotional music which gave it away. In that Long Beach video he talks a lot about the Master and his importance, then it's interspliced with one syrupy love song after another, even worse than in the late 70s, including the ones where he's cajoled into getting up to dance. Does anybody honestly think it's just the premies who do this of their own volition and he doesn't orchestrate this down to the last note? So the devotional trip is definitely not dead, and it doesn't even seem like he's trying to pretend about being a humanitarian leader any more (boy, is that a joke!). If Maharaji's humanitarian, then I'm the Queen of England. I think it's safe to assume that not one red cent of the millions donated to him ever goes for humanitarian purposes, other than to support him and his lavish lifestyle. Unless you consider programs where all the people do is worship HIM as humanitarian. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 13:23:20 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Joy Subject: well tickle me funny bone! Message: 'If Maharaji's humanitarian, then I'm the Queen of England' Ohhh, that's great, Joy, love it! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 03:43:19 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Joy Subject: Savaged by a second coming Message: I think some of the songs suggests he is like J.C. - for example 'He's come again, he's here the only one I ever really loved all these years He's come to take me home and I'm going with him this time He's here' 'You've forgiven all my foolish pride there's no judgement, there's no need to hide everything's opening up inside...' This song is an oldie which has been re-recorded and I noticed a couple of words have been changed - when my tape player is working again I will let you know if the subtle alteration seems significant. (I know it has to do with deleting the word 'crazy') Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 11:26:07 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Judex Subject: Savaged by a second coming Message: I've still got the old version of that song so we can do an accurate comparison. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 18:04:29 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Sir David & Judex Subject: Savaged by a second coming Message: Everytime I speak to my friend who is still a premie, she has the new tape playing loudly in the background. It gives me the heebie jeebies. eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 19:59:06 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: eb Subject: tapes Message: I was like that. All the time I wasnt listening to a video I wanted to be listening to music. I found them to be the most 'devotional' part. I played them all the time. I agree with Kabir in a way, about the heart - 'Mohammed's son pores over words, and points out this and that, but if his chest is not soaked dark with love, then what? The Yogi comes along in his famous orange. But if inside he is colorless, then what?' Probably still confused - because reading this Kabir book today, he keeps saying it is inside, he says so much. I dont see M as connected with Kabir, even tho he claims to be. It's like separating the techniques or meditation itself from M as well. It is possible to do - but I don't know if the devotional or bhakti path I find so beautiful (even exquisite) is a real one either. Sorry, I also don't mean to confuse you. I feel a repulsion and at the same time the desire to find or know more is not lost. That's all. I haven't cut out my heart and burnt it on a fire or anything. It still belongs to me, even though I no longer am 'following' M. That's what I'm saying. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 20, 1998 at 02:15:57 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Judex Subject: tapes Message: Dear Judex, I hear you loud and clear. I equate bhakti yoga with the experiences I had as a rock band groupie. One reason is the radical ups and downs I would experience along both paths; longing to be with the object of my affection (Maharaji or Peter Steel from Type 0 Negative), getting extremely blissed out in their presences, and then crashing when they're gone. Listen to their tapes and watch their videos to maintain the connection until we could be together again physically. In an effort to heal myself of the emotional illness resulting from my dysfuckingfunctional childhood, I explored several methods that culminated in providing me with that blissful state I have in meditation. Rebirthing, bodywork, hatha yoga, and hypnotherapy all took me to the same place ultimately, and I was able to separate the bliss from Maharaji. Still, I sometimes see Maharaji when I do breathing exercises. That guy got stuck in there pretty deep. Judex, your sincerety and longing touched me. With love, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 20, 1998 at 04:41:10 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: eb Subject: to eb Message: Thanks for sharing. I relate to you a lot. You have the guts to tell your story of what's happened in the past and also the ways you went about healing. Yes I relate to the devotional trip with romantic love as well. The first guy I was ever 'in love' with I would hitchhike miles to his parent's house in the suburbs without phoning first, just to wait for him to come home, after we had broken up. And he would always let me the stay the night of course, no problem. I grieved for him for over three years after we fully separated. It was completely not what normal people do, I don't think. Worse, when we met many years later, he said he had nothing but happy memories of me and thought I was a beautiful person. Oh yeah, how nice to get off that lightly. BTW, I just saw 'Gross Pointe Blank' with John Cusack. It has some great stuff in it about that 'boy that broke your heart' stuff; initially, anyway. All I want to say is, I respect you very much because where you are now is obviously not where you were then, hey, you wouldn't be sharing about it if you were, right? And it takes courage to talk about the past mistakes. I still need to believe that the future can be better than the past. And you are happily married? So there's hope relationship-wise as well, I hope, for me too. I'd love to discuss some of the other stuff some time. I too got into a lot of healing modalities. We have stuff in common, and that's good for me to see. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 20, 1998 at 21:06:58 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Judex Subject: to eb Message: Judex: I would hitchhike miles to his parent's house in the suburbs without phoning first, just to wait for him to come home, after we had broken up. And he would always let me the stay the night of course, no problem. I grieved for him for over three years after we fully separated. It was completely not what normal people do, I don't think. I don't know about you, but I've done some pretty strange things while getting bucked off that horse. In fact, I can't really recall ever doing anything that I would now call 'normal,' except when I was the one that left. I got in touch with my first girlfriend in highschool recently, and we still communicate over ICQ. She came out here for a seminar on nursing and we went out to dinner and danced. We still like each other a lot. But, I think the reason we can do that (she's happily married to someone else) is that we were never physically intimate. (Not completely, I mean.) That seems to give us the space so that neither of us has to explain a broken heart to the other. And I also think that it has mostly been her openness, rather than mine. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 14:20:28 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Savaged by a dead sheep Message: Sir David, thanks. I remember the 1976 'humanitarian leader' experiment and I reacted to it much as you did. Recently, Mark Appleman said that around 1983, BM was in an 'I wanna quit' period and consulted an astrologer in Marin County, California, to help him get through it. He didn't expound any more on that, but I wondered if you might have heard anything about this. From what I understand, BM did kind of 'drop out' during the mid-80s when not much of anything was happening. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 20:40:38 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: JW Subject: Savaged by a dead sheep Message: That's interesting about Maharaji seeing an astrologer in 1983. No, I didn't know about that. I dropped out in 1983 myself and only saw Maharaji once again in 1986. I think that if Maharaji had come clean in 1983 and apologised for pretending to be God and fooling people into giving their lives to him; well I think he would have had SOME credibility. But I think he is actually afraid of any backlash he might get from premies who he's conned. I think Maharaji is afraid of us and he just hopes we'll get too old and just forget about him pretending he was the Lord. And I think he wants to keep his God status illusion alive for those old premies who still follow him. Hence the devotional songs. I firmly believe that most premies still believe he is God incarnate. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 23:54:27 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Savaged by a dead sheep Message: Sir David, I think you are exactly right. I also split in 1983, but Mark Appleman, a couple of weeks ago, posted about the astrologer stuff. Also, that BM wanted to quit in 1983, too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 12:21:06 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Sir David Subject: Savaged by a dead sheep Message: Dear David, Meditation teacher, god, what the hell ever doesn't justify that poor man cutting off his penis or premies that did similar or worse things like suicide. That stuff is inexcusable and UNACCEPTABLE under ANY circumstances!!!!!!! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 14:19:30 (EST)
From: red heels Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Savaged by a dead sheep Message: sheesh. people who have received Knowledge or not do stupid and tragic things. and that makes it Maharaji's fault, right? Please, give me a break. people have been cutting off their penises for centuries. sometimes were made to do so. Maharaji didn't cause that guy to do that. it was his own extreme obsession with sex and belief it was 'bad.' i mean really. he could have simply moved out of the ashram and gone and fucked 20 women a day. it was his choice. it was a very tragic choice. but don't we find laughing at things sometimes the most healing too? i remember so many people i knew personally felt guilty for laughing when the guy got his head shot off in the movie 'Pulp Fiction.' His brains were splattered all over the car and even on the head of the guy driving the car. It was hilarious, and it felt really, really, really good to be able to laugh. Sometimes we need to be able to laugh at the very worst things. Doesn't mean we are murderers. Doesn't mean we like it that it happened. Doesn't mean I'm a bad, mean and cruel person because Pulp Fiction is about my favorite movie of all time. Means I enjoy my ability to laugh at the traumas and dramas. Is that so very unhealthy? IT's the repression in people when they feel they are not allowed to laugh when something is terribly gruesome. Fact is it MUST be laughed at. There's a lot of heavy shit out there. Whatcha gonna do? Cry 12 hours a day? Is that the purpose of human life? meanwhile, i thank Maharaji for showing me the way to real freedom, and i thank him for his untiring help and reminders, because there is no way i could do it without him!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 16:10:09 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: red heels Subject: My apology to Red Heels Message: . Maharaji didn't cause that guy to do that. it was his own extreme obsession with sex and belief it was 'bad.' i mean really. he could have simply moved out of the ashram and gone and fucked 20 women a day. it was his choice. it was a very tragic choice. Oh red heels, You know, when I read your first few posts, I kind of liked you. Honestly. You seemed like a nice, pleasant kind of person. Now, I hate your guts, quite frankly. Nothing personal. I just hate the way people can get, you know? I hate the way they can lie and twist their minds so far out of shape that nothing means anything, life's just a bunch of lies. No, even lies mean something. I guess 'nothingness' would be more appropriate. So, anyway, what I really hate is that you so callously avoid the very reason why the guy thought sex was bad. What? Are you an idiot? He thought that because Maharaji trained us to think that. As for 'choice', oh my God, you are really something, aren't you? Did you live in the ashram? How long? How did you leave? Was it a big deal? Why did you leave? Did you leave the first day you wanted to? Why not? Did you feel any guilt in leaving? You stupid, stupid, sorry excuse for a human being, you know damn well that moving into the ashram was a physical expression of total surrender. We gave our lives to Maharaji. Moving out, then, was taking back what we'd given. 'Choice'? If you were here now -- and smaller than me -- I'd throw you clear across the room, you little bug. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 16:14:46 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: red heels Subject: Savaged by a dead sheep Message: God, your post is really, really sick. Do you even realize what you are saying? i remember so many people i knew personally felt guilty for laughing when the guy got his head shot off in the movie 'Pulp Fiction.' I personally didn't laugh at this, in fact I thought the whole movie, which is about the decline of western civilization, and the fact that it was popular was evidence of the decline. But the point is, people knew that was just A MOVIE. MJ is laughing about the tragedy of a real person. In fact, one of his devotees, and he may well have contributed to his psychotic self mutilation. MJ, in my experience, never gave a shit about his devotees, except to the extent they gave him what he wanted, in terms of worship and money, but laughing at this type of thing, especially someone in his supposed 'teacher' position, is just plain sick. Fact is it MUST be laughed at. Bullshit! Whatcha gonna do? How about showing a little compassion for another human being? Do you think BM laughed when his wife almost died? I doubt it. Why is it okay for him to laugh, publicly, about a premie who had real problems and suffered for them. What does this communicate to the premies? Whatever it is, you seem to have learned it very well. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 16:28:02 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: JW Subject: Savaged by a dead sheep Message: Hey JW, I'm with you bud.Thing is though(sorry to barge in on this)after reading this latest red heels post I think he may actually be another John Hammond Smythe type or just trying to push peoples buttons. Or you guys could be right;he could be for real and in that case it may actually be worth expending energy. Anyway,it's just a feeling I'm getting.A hunch. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 19:12:10 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: everyone Subject: Please no pseudo-premies Message: Or you guys could be right;he could be for real and in that case it may actually be worth expending energy. I know it can't be stopped altogether but this is a perfect reason why it's not really funny to make up fake premies, even if you think it is really obvious they are fake. And also to Jim, it still pisses me off that you made up that story about being bashed at the ashram. For a joke? This is like the kind of joke you are mocking. Because that night was when I finally made up my mind M was all bullshit. No, I don't take back what I decided, but it was typical of the kind of mocking I got as a child about serious things from an alcoholic parent. Just so you are aware of the effect of that side of your personality (the cruel jokester?) and can rein it in if possible? Also, why should the rule of posting under someone else's pseudonym be enforced, but not making up fake ones, so that when someone real posts, everyone doubts who they are? Brian? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 19:28:11 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Judex Subject: Please no pseudo-premies Message: Judex, You're right about how posters using different names can be confusing to the readers. Unfortunately, I think 'red heels' is for real, believe it or not. I just think he or she is so indoctrinated as a premie that he or she can justify and rationalize anything and not even realize how nuts it sounds.' I also say this because within the BM cult is a strong strain of ethical relativism when it comes to BM, and also the willingness to do rational gymnastics to avoid ever criticizing the him. 'Red heels' exhibits both those attributes, so I think we are dealing with a real premie here. JW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 19:49:11 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: JW Subject: Thanks JW Message: thanks JW, I find myself appreciating that Red Heels is trying to be honest, and is sincere. I find it hard to 'spot the real problem' with his thinking when he is like that, I am still stuck in there somewhere. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 20:19:08 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: JW Subject: Thanks JW + Message: I am always in too much of a hurry and skim over things, as if I am still in school and think I have to understand everything yesterday using mostly guess-work. strong strain of ethical relativism Could you expand on that a bit? thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 19:46:03 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jim Subject: to Jim Message: On reflection - I know I can't take it back but I retract any suggestion that you posted that invented story to hurt anyone or mock anyone. Sorry, I got a bit carried away, Jim. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 19:50:09 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judex Subject: Please no pseudo-premies Message: I know it can't be stopped altogether but this is a perfect reason why it's not really funny to make up fake premies, even if you think it is really obvious they are fake. And also to Jim, it still pisses me off that you made up that story about being bashed at the ashram. For a joke? This is like the kind of joke you are mocking. Because that night was when I finally made up my mind M was all bullshit. No, I don't take back what I decided, but it was typical of the kind of mocking I got as a child about serious things from an alcoholic parent. Just so you are aware of the effect of that side of your personality (the cruel jokester?) and can rein it in if possible? Also, why should the rule of posting under someone else's pseudonym be enforced, but not making up fake ones, so that when someone real posts, everyone doubts who they are? Judex, First, my joke about being held hostage in the ashram basement was, I thought, so off the wall no one could take it seriously. Maybe I'm wrong, in which case, I beleive, my only mistake was in not making the story a bit more fantastic. See, I completely agree with you that it's not really worth it to screw with each other too much here. Like, the time I impersonated Katie and a few others -- I can't even remember -- oh yes, Anon, and someone else, I thought the parodies were self-evident. Anyway, I'll never do that again. But tell me, what's this 'cruel jokester' shit? Really, Judex, what in the world..? Now, as for 'fake premies': I kind of agree. If red heels turns out to be JW, let's say, or maybe Katie, well I got my blood pressure up for nothing then, didn't I? Mind you, that IS the nature of a practical joke. Cruel? Hmm. I'll have to ask my rabbi. Frankly, I was a little bemused, then a little ticked when John Hammond Smyth showed up. I found out early on that he was a prank and thought it somewhat unfair for him to turn ex's cranks as he originally did. But, know what? This morning I read his recent posts and thought how wonderful that ______ can play this role as well as he does. Really, Judex, when you're dealing with the sublimely ridiculous, as in a 70s cult like ours, and especially when you're dealing with the premie mentality, what else is there but shock, outrage and scathing humour? Oh I know, that's not the only emulsifier, the only detergent. But it IS one, and it IS fun and well, you know? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 20:06:16 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jim Subject: Please no pseudo-premies Message: Yes I know it's fun when its blindingly obvious. But look at Iola and how she freaked out recently. It's not always that obvious to new people. Maybe they could be sign-posted eg 'Fun only'. But tell me, what's this 'cruel jokester' shit? Really, Judex, what in the world.. Yeah I think I was getting a bit carried away but I was thinking of 'The Mask'. You know, many people have this character in their personae, I think it would be Hermes, the winged messenger - a light-footed prankster who has a dark side, however. That's all. We are all full of them. and I am full of it! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 20:14:38 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jim Subject: to Jim + Message: Jim here is a bit on Hermes: Herme, a trickster god who acts as a guide betwen the worlds but is also a liar and a thief.. Some context....'He identified Hermes in himself with a quality of desire that rises up in his chest. He experiences it as a craving, a compulsive urge to have something even if it does not belong to him'...(that is obviously the thief manifestation, not the joker) I'm concerned about copyright infringement - is it safer if I don't quote the source? Because, for example, I found a Kabir poem today that I really wanted to post to you, or I thought of you when I read it. Don't know if you're in the mood for that stuff anyway, and b) suppose I could already be in copyright trouble for already posting one earlier. (Plus it would probably be inappropriate here due to M's love for Kabir?) Some ethical/etiquette tips, please. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 20:30:05 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judex Subject: to Jim + Message: Judex, My big flippant response is some version of 'don't worry about it'. Don't worry about copyright (you can copy all sorts of stuff so long as it's not protected AND extensive AND for personal gain. Plus, I'm sure Kabir's well into the public domain, even if a few translations aren't). Don't worry about the propriety of posting anything just because the former Lord of the Universe smudged it with his greasy palm. Reeally, we're all a bit bigger than that, I should say. And don't worry about sending me any Kabir! No offense. I've had enough of that guy to last a lifetime. Thanks anyway, :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 20:36:59 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judex Subject: To Judex & Iola Message: But look at Iola and how she freaked out recently. It's not always that obvious to new people. Maybe they could be sign-posted eg 'Fun only'. You know, Judex, I never really got that Iola freaked that much. I recall her just asking for her money back or something. Iola, if you're reading this, just to lay this little question to rest, what exactly WAS your take on the DUO post? Second, Judex -- oh boy, you might hate me for this one -- the concept of a 'Fun Only' classification reminds me of, gulp, something you'd see at a feminist something or other. You have to remember that two large parts of humour are role-playing and surprise (i.e. incongruity). You give those up with warnings like that. Capiche? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 20:46:29 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jim Subject: To Jim Message: Oh so now I have become a feminist with no sense of humour (and probably hairy legs and big feet) because.....? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 20:55:30 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judex Subject: No, I didn't say that Message: Judex, I said it was LIKE. Fisrt, you tell me, do I have a point there or not? IS it like that or isn't it? Then, we can consider if there are other things that are LIKE feminist something-or-others which aren't those things in particular. Sheesh! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 20, 1998 at 04:14:21 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jim Subject: No, I didn't say that Message: Jim I really don't think you want to keep debating here - because I can debate with you on this. But you would lose. And that's not the point - that's what pisses me off. Why does everything have to be win/lose - huh? That's where I'm coming from. PS I notice and I can find the example if you like, that you are very good at side-stepping other people and not answering their strong points of view eg red heels I think, when you have in the past repeatedly harassed people for the same reason. How about a bit more tolerance. I realise you are not the one posting as Hammond Smith. But I have got a bee in my bonnet about you, I do admit that. And you're so good at slipping out of looking at that part of you I am addressing (whoops I wrote 'that part of me'). So if you can't see it I can't make you. I realised that today. Here I go, trying to change someone. Impossible. Like you trying to make people see and agree with your point of view. I think you are a bully at times, Jim, that's the bottom line. You attack people in very personal ways using adjectives which you know will hurt. I bet you're good in court (win/lose) but can you think of how you lose out? Have you read all the posts on anger that came up after you dropped out for a while? Enough said, probably too much. Correct me for being a lunatic if you like but this is my point of view. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 20, 1998 at 04:32:00 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jim Subject: No addendum Message: I think you are a bully at times, Jim, that's the bottom line. I should have said, you use bullying tactics at times. Authoritarian tactics. It's not what you are, just one thing you do. Amongst many. And the rest, I really like, appreciate, admire and enjoy. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 20, 1998 at 04:33:25 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judex Subject: No, I didn't say that Message: Fuck off, Judex. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 23:54:04 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: red heels Subject: Savaged by a dead sheep Message: Why are you so stupid, Red Heels? Did you have your penis cut off? Listen, it could be funny, Dummy. Anything can be funny in a certain context, but the context David described wasn't funny; it was typical arrogance. And about that scene in Pulp Fiction... I didn't laugh at that, I was shocked. What's up with you, Red Heels? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 20, 1998 at 21:29:03 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: red heels Subject: Savaged by a dead sheep Message: RH: i mean really. he could have simply moved out of the ashram and gone and fucked 20 women a day. it was his choice. it was a very tragic choice. but don't we find laughing at things sometimes the most healing too? Clearly what this guy needs is a good laugh. I mean, a REALLY good laugh. Any ideas about what might ticlke his funny bone? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 19:48:49 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: 1974 Q&A (pt 1) Message: [Excerpts from a dialogue with Maharaji in Phoenix, Arizona on January 21, 1974, a few months after the debacle of Millenium. Notice -- as if you could miss it -- how, for the first time, the Lord of the Universe scrambles to downsize our expectations]: Maharaj Ji, in Montrose you were saying that a very strange thing is going to happen, and the whole world will know who God is. And you said that it would happen real soon I think it's happening right now. Don't you understand the energy crisis? What is it? Something for people to understand: that there is a personality like God. And without Him, we are jsut peices of junk, nothing else. And it's like, God is there, all the time. But for a person to see Him and understnd Him, anyway he has to look up to Him. But it's like God is giving all these indications of His presence. You know? If he does ... Look. The thing is, if somebody goes and does something good, he will go and good around all Arizona probably, saying 'I have done something good.' But if he does soemthing bad, and he blows it, you know, it means he just really blew it. Then he is going to blame it on somebody else; not on himself. So if God does something good for people, people will never understand it. People don't! [Huh???] Is there going to be any big event, or cataclysmic occurence, or some big sign...? Even if it is happening right now, the biggest event is that you are alive. That's the biggest event. God has given you so many things, and that's the biggest gift. And it's like, if you cannot even understand that, forget it, man. There can't be anything more after that. You see, He has made everything and is sustaining it. He is sustaining you. And that's the biggest thing! This big globe and everything you see is for man to live. Hmm? And that little thing that makes man survive .... **** If you think there is going to be a big miracle, well it's happening right now! But you have to get into it and understand it. It's not going to be a magician's trick. It's happening right now. But you have to udnerstand it. It's the mysterious thing. ***** Maharaj Ji, were you pleased with the way that the Millenium program went? Did you like it? Oh sure. It was fantastic. Even if that program had been held in this little ashram, believe me, it would have been fantastic. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. See, the Colorado program, Montrose program, was so beautiful. So what difference does it make if it happened in the Houston Astrodome? It's always fantastic to describe God, to think about Him, you know, and understand His beauty. It's always fantastic. But only if you really get into it, that is. Not saying, 'Oh God kills people,' and things like that. [Oh, I see.] Could any premie be wrong, be mistaken about what he is meditating upon? Well, what difference does it make? You know the only thing is that if he is meditating properly, he won't think about those things. [Too funny for comment, really.] And he will get the satisfaction and the Peace tht he wants to get. But if he is trying to meditate and is getting nothing out of it, then certainly it's the wrong thing. It doesn't make a difference if somebody stamped 'premie' on his head. He's still a human being, trying to reach perfection. ****** Could you please give us satsang, Maharaj Ji? Well, I think if there are butterflies in your minds or hearts, you better pop them out first. ****** Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 20:31:21 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: 1974 Q&A (pt 2) Message: Guru Maharaj Ji, do you have any advice for people who are going to get married, and how they should live in the Knowledge? There are two things. Premies that have not moved into an ashram and don't have any intention to move into an ashram and want to get married, they live a life, they do some business where they work, and they have a job, work outside [okay, Maharaji, we got that], they do meditation -- for them, the advice is just go ahead and get married, do meditation, and live happily. But the premies who are working in the ashram, who are living in ashram, for them the thing is that, look: you have to understand. You have to take the right decision. Becuase the opportunity of service you are getting now, you will not get it later. If you leave it now, then it's going to be like you are progressing, you are just completely progressing, and then you drop down. Becuase then you are looking for something else which is completely external. And then one day it's going to die out and then again you would like to come back and be in the ashram and do service! You understand? Because it's much better, you know, for a man to be compeltely, like, ina whole circumstance where he can get satsang all the time and be able to do service all the time. ******** Should you have a regular program of meditation, or should you just meditate when you feel like it? Should you do an hour in the morning, hour at night, or jsut when you feel like meditating? Tell me one thing. If you stop meditation, will you still be alive? I mean formal meditation, Maharaj Ji. No. Meditation is meditation, and you CANNOT say it's formal or not formal. That means you are making a mistake by saying meditation is formal. That means you don't even UNDERSTAND what you are talking about. Meditation IS meditation. I do meditation. I don't have to particularly sir down and close my eyes and think like that and say, 'Man, I am going to do meditation and that's going to be formal meditation for a half an hour, and beait it. I don't ... I DID it for half an hour.' ***** That's not the way it works. You have to get into meditation for twenty four hours. ****** Maharaj Ji, doe sit make a difference if a person eats meat or not? Does it affect their meditation? I know one thing. What you eat, so you become. I'm not telling you a lie. I speak from experience. [Now THAT's interesting!]. I'll tell you one thing, since it's not meant for human beings to eat ... and there is a very6 logical explanation. Maybe you even know it, you know? The beings that are supposed to eat meat, liek cats, lions, animals like that, they always LICK their water. They don't SUCK the water. They always LICK it. They take their tongue out like a cat -- you have seen how a cat drinks water, and how a dog drinks it. But beings that SUCK water don't eat meat. And that's the way it's supposed to be. And man sucks water, he does not lick water, since he is not supposed to eat meat. And God has provided him, and made him the king of all nature not to kill other things, but to .. He has given him all the fruit in the world, anything he wants, a big head up here .. So, don't you think he should try to utilize [I HATE THAT WORD!] it and try to understand the beauty, and to grasp the beauty of the fruits God has given us? Becuase I'll tell you, it's really healthy too. Body can jsut really accept it. And that's the way it is. Yes? Why wouldn't you say that when you pick a plant you're not killing the plant too? I mean .. Well, becuase that's the thing. That little killing is MEANT to be for you. And that's okay. A plant still has consciousness A plant has a consciousness. But where is the consciousness? [This get's really funny] I don't know. See, this is the thing. Where is the consciousness? The root. The root has a consciousness, but where does the consciousness actually lie? Because if you take a root itself, it's in a seed. You see, thee is a little explanation to that. If you are eating meat, you are eating out of a BEING. Right? Not froma dead. Not from a what? Like supposedly some people eat cows, right? Uh-huh. Cow comes from a life. Mother, right? And that also came from a life, and it's a life to a life to a life circle. But a palnt does not come from a life. It comes from death; a seed which is dead. [Look, I'm not making this up. I swear to God, it's right here in Elan Vital, Volume 1, Issue 1, 1977]. It doesn't need any nutrition. It's a dead seed. When you plant it, that's when it gorws and gives you fruits. What if you eat an animal that comes from a seed? I mean, an animal..? Well, I owuldn't object to that. You could call an egg .. a chicken comes from an egg. An egg is a seed, isn't it? Is an egg alive? The one you buy in a store? See, it's like, it's NOT like a seed. Still it's not like a seed. Becasue seed itself is dead. If you leave a seed around, it will never rot. If you leave an egg around, it'll rot. Becuase it has a life and it ahs a period of life. ******* Also, can we experience darshan inside of ourselves in meditation? Yes. But I think you should stop bothering about that and start doing meditation. It might bring you to that point. ******* Guru Maharaj Ji, slowly I feel myself kind of withdrawing, you know, from relationships with people, and I feel myself trying not to have that anymore, just be inside myself. And I feel like that's better, you know, and that then my relationships will be better too. But I'm afraid that maybe I'll become cold or something. I don't know, I just feel funny about it. No, you won't becoem cold. You will be okay. But you will be strong enough to have much more of a relationship, you know, make much more of a friendship, and to have much more friendship with peopel than just be like a person, you know. You'll be able to be open much more. It's like, you have just gone in to make that hole of Love bigger. When you come back, its' like you cna give much more Love to people. [No comment.] Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 20:35:14 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: oops! Elf? Brian? Anyone? Message: Hey, is there an elf out there? I missed a wee bit of, little tiny bit of html. Sorry. Hey, Brian, while I've got your attention, here's a suggestion: how about a permanent place on the site for some of M's satsang, such as the above? Just a thought. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 21:17:58 (EST)
From: Forum Elves Email: None To: Jim Subject: Fixed it. Message: Now you owe us big-time, Jim...We had to READ all that satsang in order to make the corrections. One small comment, the perfect WebMaster has asked that all comments concerning web site content be directed to him via e-mail and not posted on the forum. Thanks! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 22:09:00 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Forum Elves Subject: Fixed it. Message: Gracias Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 23:14:24 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: I Agree Message: Hey, Brian, while I've got your attention, here's a suggestion: how about a permanent place on the site for some of M's satsang, such as the above? Just a thought. I completely agree. This is terrific stuff. Exactly the proof needed for some of the ridiculous stuff and hindu pronouncements BM used to make (if you can decifer the incoherence.] How did I EVER fall for such drivel? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 22:26:19 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Jim Subject: The Hole of Love Message: Jim, After reading these quotes, it's no wonder the videos these days are so canned. As I recall, I used to hang on every inane word he said thinking that I wasn't understanding him because he was so far beyond me. I plan to dig out my old Divine Times and AIIDs this weekend to see if I can find any outstanding quotes such as these to post. Thanks. Got a good laugh. eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 22:32:56 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: eb Subject: Me a premie? never! Message: Isn't it just profoundly trajic, that we, young impressionable idiots, were hanging on every word this guy was saying? I just think I'm gonna become totally hysterical here in a minute, I mean was I REALLY that stupid!?!? Hey wait just a doggone minute, if HE can claim it all never happened, well so can I. You know what? I'm just kidding all of you. I never WAS a premie. Ha ha ha ha, I bet I had you all fooled into thinking I really was one, didn't I? Ho ho ho ho. that's a good one. I'm really glad I never actually got into that trip. Boy does that guru sound dumb! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 22:35:48 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: John Subject: Me a premie? never! Message: John and eb: My feelings exactly. Can you imagine, dead seeds? Holy cow! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 09:52:16 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Jim Subject: dead seeds Message: Jim, Dead seeds indeed! I forgot about that one, how stupid, dead! If you leave a seed and there is moisture it sprouts for god sake! I know you all know that but I just wanted to post it for the BM and his cronies if they are lurking. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 10:06:54 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Robyn Subject: dead seeds Message: Robyn, That's called re-incarnation (no pun intended)! My condolences to the faculty at St. Joseph's Academy. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 13:11:02 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btiternet.com To: Jim Subject: I'm a potato murderer Message: What about spuds? If you leave them in the cupboard for too long they start growing into plants. And I've just boiled three of them, alive! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 13:35:13 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Sir David Subject: I'm a potato murderer Message: David: What about spuds? If you leave them in the cupboard for too long they start growing into plants. And I've just boiled three of them, alive! This is not to mention the fact that if you propagate them to greatest effect you have to gouge out their little eyes. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 23:36:10 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: reverse carnivores Message: Jim: Do alligators and crocodiles lick or suck? Lemurs lick, and I haven't seen many of them eating steaks. Maybe they eat bugs though. Bugs are good food. Parrots scoop. How does that fit in? How about sharks? Do they lick? Trout suck, for sure. Bats lick, except for vampires... they suck. Goats, Camels and Llamas spit, but I guess that's just sucking thrown in reverse. St. Bernards drool. That must be licking in reverse. I had an aunt who drooled. Is she allowed to eat bugs as a sort of compromise? Come to think of it, that's how she got that way. Spiders suck. They REALLY suck! So, if you eat spiders you must be a musician?? I'm getting lost. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 23:44:11 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: reverse carnivores Message: Good points, Scott. I had a parrot once that definitely licked, and he ate only seeds and fruit. Wouldn't touch a steak with a ten-foot pole. And chickens, they don't have lips but they do have tongues and also lick. But BM does have a point. I've known a lot of people who do suck. I mean there is this Tent Lott person who the other day equated homosexuality with alcoholism and kleptomania. He REALLY sucks. Now, Maharaji, we KNOW he sucks, but he used to be vegetarian, but apparently isn't anymore. Does that mean he used to be a sucker but is now a licker? Or maybe he just eats sucking (or licking?) animals. I guess he used to think we as premies sucked, but they apparently don't anymore, hence he no longer requires them to be vegetarian. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 01:10:33 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: JW Subject: reverse carnivores Message: Soooo, if we use a straw then we can't eat meat? How about if we want to suck up a brewski or the milk in the bottom of the cereal bowl? What if you make noise while slurping up soup? I think that sharks bite, Scott. BM bites, too, so what do biters eat?? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 07:08:09 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: VP Subject: reverse carnivores Message: Just to be scientific for a moment, Homo Sapiens (us) are omnivores, meaning that we can eat both vegetarian and meat diets. If we were'nt omnivores we would not be able to digest meat. We have evolved as a hunter/gatherer type of animal and can live on both meat and veg. We're pretty closely related to chimpanzees and they are mainly vegetarian but they do have a hunting instinct and will make group attacks on smaller monkeys which they will kill and eat with relish. I saw a fascinating Savid Attemborough TV pragramme about the hunting chimps. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 09:45:56 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: Brian, technical problem Message: Brian: I keep getting kicked out of IE3 when I click on John Hammand Smyth's post below. The same thing happened with a post from Anon awhile back. I get a message that says Internet Explorer has become a criminal and will be shut down. I currently have version 3.02. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 13:04:02 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: JW Subject: reverse carnivores Message: Dear JW, I forgot they don't have to be vegitarians anymore. Maybe that is because he re-read that piece and realized himself how stupid it all was! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 13:01:49 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Scott T. Subject: reverse carnivores Message: Dear Scott, That was PRECIOUS!! I am still laughing. Laughing today, in my cubical by myself, Tuesday I was sobbing in here. They think my nuts here but I don't care about that, in fact I kind of like it! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 01:49:44 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'M CRACKING UP!!! Message: This thing here, Maharaji's explanation about dead seeds, is the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with. I can't believe I was THAT stupid. He's a complete fucking idiot. There's nothing else to say, the guy's an imbecile. And we ate this shit up! Oh my God, I need help! Laurie, take me to emergency. Get me drugs, pacify me. John, you are absolutely right. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. I was never a premie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 01:53:47 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'M CRACKING UP!!! Message: Jim, I know how you feel!! I was never an aspirant! I was never an aspirant! I was never an aspirant! I was never an aspirant! I was never an aspirant! I was never an aspirant! I was never an aspirant! (At least I CAN say in all truthfulness 'I was never a premie'-haha!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 06:51:45 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth Email: padded.cell@asylum.com To: VP Subject: I'M CRACKING UP!!! Message: There's always room for you here. True, the decor leaves a lot to be desired but I can bang my head against the wall all day and I don't hurt myself. Anyway, who needs external comforts? I am completely surrendered and will be pleased to give you all satsang all day and all night. You'll soon be feeling much better. Here's another quote from our Perfect Master, Maharaji. He said, 'It's a physical impossibility to have too much satsang.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 10:07:45 (EST)
From: Iola Email: None To: John Hammond-Smyth Subject: I'M CRACKING UP!!! Message: How about this one. 'One day you fall off a cliff and you manage to hang onto one branch and call for your GMJ. He will come and save you, but if you wait too long perhaps all that will be left is your voice. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 10:13:00 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Iola Subject: I'M CRACKING UP!!! Message: Iola: I've never heard that. Is that 'voice' thing from an actual satsang? Sounds kind of forlorn. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 10:26:59 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Iola Subject: At the feet of the Master Message: Hi Iola, Haven't said that yet. Listen, I think we could put together a great collection of the words of Maharaji. One fat category would be scaremongering and yours, above, would be a good start. I know at times it doesn't look like what he was saying was that intense. Premies still trying to defend him argue that. For example, if this quote is the worst thing he ever said about waiting too long before calling for help and the dire consequences thereof (I'm a lawyer), it's not that bad, is it? But hell, they miss the whole point. We hung on his every word. He didn't have to shout his threats (although, of course, he did that too). We dropped our every defense to soak in his whispered programming. If he wanted to remind us of the simple premie notion that he, Maharaji, was Lord and Master of all creation, he sometimes did it with a smile, a shrug, sometimes even nothing at all. For instance, that pitch about the ashram in the 1974 session I posted above. Sure, he doesn't come right out and say that that's the only acceptable way to GIVE your life, to SURRENDER your life. No more than the salesman tells you that yes, you could buy the cheap couch over here -- IF you're not too worried about quality, durability, resale value or comfort -- rather than the excellent model designed for discriminating sophisticates like yourself over here. Now what's really funny is that premies say, 'So what? You've got a mind of your own. If you don't want to spend the extra money on the more expensive couch, you don't. Who cares what the salesman says?' Sure, but what if the only way you can get into the store is by first accepting that the salesman is God? What if you've promised to leave no room for doubt in your mind about anything he says? And on and on and on! No, Maharaji said a lot. Congratulations on breaking free. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 17:14:05 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: John Hammond-Smyth Subject: I'M CRACKING UP!!! Message: I've heard this from premies before, they give me a little satsang, my doubts will disappear, blablabla...They did leave out the part about the padded walls though. I think that those walls probably exist for premies on the outside as well as in the asylum... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 10:44:18 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'M CRACKING UP!!! Message: Jim, I think part of the explanation for why we ate this stuff up is that we didn't really listen to him. At least some of us didn't. I even remember reading this stupid 'dead seed' satsang, and just kind of skimming over it. Or maybe, like eb, I figured that he just knew something that I did not - I wasn't 'high' enough to understand what he was getting at. I have always found M's satsang hard to listen to and understand. I've been watching his newer videos lately, and I still have a hard time concentrating enough to actually listen what he is saying. I just zone out. When I was a premie, I would start meditating while he was speaking and figure I was 'hearing' it unconsciously (I distinctly remember doing this at festivals, for example). Of course, I'd hear a few things, mostly the interesting stuff, or the stories, but most of the time it just went right in one ear and out the other. Anyone else have this experience? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 13:49:34 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Katie Subject: I'M CRACKING UP!!! Message: Dear Katie, Certainly those premies on LOTU were all sitting with their eyes closed. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 03:55:53 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Katie Subject: I'M CRACKING UP!!! Message: I've been watching his newer videos lately, and I still have a hard time concentrating enough to actually listen what he is saying. I just zone out. I experienced that, especially when I first started listening. I later wondered it happened because I was being 'tuned' to a different or higher vibration (and my conscious mind kind of went to sleep so my deeper self could receive....whatever!). As time went by I found I could 'stay tuned' for longer and longer periods and I thought this was because I had become more conscious. It is weird. He could be using hypnosis techniques (repetition, tone of voice). I've got another 'weird' story to add actually. I might start a new thread about it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 09:47:58 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Jim Subject: 1974 Q&A (pt 2)/Katie,LOTU Message: Dear Jim, Glad to 'see' you're back although I know you had been feeling like you were needing to take a break. I know we were at odds before you took your hiatus but if you didn't see any of my posts where I mentioned you I want you to know that although you and I may grate against each other at times, I appreciate a lot of what you say and feel like you have helped me a lot and may well be an important part of the work I am doing on myself right now. 'Nuf, said. I just watched LOTU last night so these posts are much more relavent to me today than they may have been a few days ago. In talking to Brian the last time I told him that I am just remembering bits and pieces about my personall involvement with BM while I was a premie. I have been saying here and in my journey that I didn't buy into BM being god and that it was just the meditation and then I saw people posting parts of arti and thought, I remember singing that and swaying to the music or talking to the Jesus freaks that came to our farm to save us and trying to make them see that he was just like Jesus. My memory is still very fuzzy and I can't remember the 'feeling' that I had, if I had it, of love for BM but I am thinking I must have. I never lived in an ashram and certainly didn't sacrifice my whole life like you, JW, ect, ect. I think, not feel or remember, maybe that what I did was to give him the benifit of the doubt with reservations. That sounds like my MO too. Anyway these posts were funny, of course, but also telling. Thanks for posting them. The beings that are supposed to eat meat, liek cats, lions, animals like that, they always LICK their water. They don't SUCK the water. They always LICK it. they take their tongue out like a cat -- you have seen how a cat drinks water, and how a dog drinks it. But beings that SUCK water don't eat meat. And that's the way it's supposed to be. I found this hillarious, is this a fact or belif of vegitarian, I am a most of the time vegitarian myself but I never heard this before! I will post my thoughts on the LOTU video latter. Katie who do I send it to now? Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 09:57:14 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Jim... me too, buddy Message: Jim: I meant to welcome you back too. And also I wanted to say that if you read those posts where I compare you to Myrna Loy and Gabby Hayes... well I was just kidding. You know... a joke. Gulp. Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 10:10:50 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Jim... me too, buddy Message: Scott, I didn't read them but I do have a clipping service that's just started scanning the web as well as tv, radio and the press. They should get me copies of everything within a week or so. I'll get back to you. Wasn't Myrna Loy a woman? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 10:18:16 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim... me too, buddy Message: Jim: Wasn't Myrna Loy a woman? So was Gabby Hayes. Very few people know this, of course, but my family was in the motion picture business and it's a closely held secret. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 10:32:40 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Praising Jim Message: While we are on this subject, Jim, I should get mucho points from you for confirming the fact that you are indeed dark and handsome (I'm not sure about tall) to Mirabai. She still didn't believe me, but I tried. Really. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 11:09:17 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Praising Jim Message: Yes, Katie, I saw that. Thanks so much! I felt so good about that I went out and had my hair done. You should see me now! AND, I bought a new sweater! Mirabai, eat your heart out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 11:45:27 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Praising Jim Message: You're welcome, Jim. I just hope you didn't get a perm, otherwise I might have to change my opinion about part of that statement. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 11:13:28 (EST)
From: Guenther's mom Email: None To: Katie etal Subject: my Jim image.... Message: Jim, please forgive me for this....I suspect your political affiliations are very different... Joe DeGeneva, a frequent commentator on Rivera Live. The guy is FUNNY and no bullshit. Can have lesser minds cowering in a puddle with a few turns of the tongue. Sits there smoking this big cigar. He is married to the equally witty Victoria T...something. I want to be invited to their home for dinner and just listen two the talk. Oh yes, they too are in THAT profession. But you can't hold that against them. Jim I hope I did not offend thee, I think it is a compliment. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 10:37:46 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Whuppersnappers Message: Jim: In historical perspective the phrase: 'You young whuppersnapper!' quite clearly is meant to evoke an image of the penus as an instrument of male domination, and is an early form of male-bashing. Thus, Gabby is revealed to have been one of the early feminists and ought to be categorized with the wise-cracking Myrna Loy. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 17:49:09 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Parsnickity Whuppersnappers Message: Jim: Excuse me, but I think the phrase used by Gabby was 'parsnickity whuppersnappers' (pronounced with a lot of incidental phlegm) rather than 'young whuppersnappers.' I'm also not sure, but think the name of the actress who played the characeter was 'Fuzzy Knight' (again, a veiled reference to the mysterious condition of the pubic region and a backhanded swipe at male icons): soft 'nights' and gentle breezes, no doubt. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 10:26:42 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Robyn Subject: LOTU to eb & Robyn Message: Good morning Robyn! You can send the video back to eb at your leisure. She wants to keep it (for posterity, I guess). In case she doesn't see this message, please put a note inside teling her to hang on to it for herself. Can't wait to hear what you think about LOTU. BTW, Millenium was in November of 1973, but the video was made in 1974 (I think). Thanks, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 23:59:04 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Katie and Robyn Subject: LOTU Message: Hi Katie and Robyn, Yes, please send the video back to me. I'm still in denial and need to see it to believe it ever happened. Also, I know some fence-sitting premies who might benefit by seeing it. I'm getting really tired of this cast on my wrist, but I can't get it off until July 1. Editing scripts and fiscal closing with a broken hand--I'm not a happy camper. eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 17:24:25 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: New letter to Linda Gross (EV) Message: [Hi Guys, I just sent a follow-up to Linda. I should have mentioned the 1K bet that JW and I have about getting an answer. Bruce, you wnt a piece of this?] June 17, 1998 Elan Vital (By fax to 310 - 829 - 6316) c/o Linda Gross Attorney at Law 2730 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 220 Santa Monica, CA. 90403 Att: Linda Gross, President Dear Linda: Re: Maharaji Thanks for your recent faxed reply to my letter of June 9, 1998. I can’t say I was surprised to learn that Maharaji no longer entertains questions from the floor. Indeed, I understood that he stopped doing so in the early eighties. I’m not sure why Bruce, the Australian security guy I mentioned, got the idea. Maybe he’s confused Maharaji with someone else. (I don’t know if you ever searched for ‘Maharaji’ on the net but, if you have, you’ve noticed that there are lots of them.) At this point, Linda, I’m inclined to ask you to go a step further and ask Maharaji, on my behalf, if he’d agree to some sort of dialogue. The thing is, of course, I already did that in my April 17th letter (copy enclosed). You promised to try to get me an answer sooner rather than later. I wonder, have you heard anything yet? I should say that some former followers of Maharaji scoff at my efforts to reach Maharaji through you and your office. Their view is that Maharaji being the Master that he is, delegates little if any authority for anything. Yes, you may be ‘president’ of the organization dedicated to furthering his work in the world, but that doesn’t mean you can actually speak with him, for example. Quite frankly, I think you’re far too intelligent and responsible to accept such an empty position for any reason. My impressions are based solely on our several phone calls in which you’ve always struck me as intelligent, well-meaning and thoughtful. (Yippee for lawyers!!) Anyway, there it is. I’m still looking forward to you reply. Sincerely James I. Heller Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 17:43:46 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Jim Subject: New letter to Linda Gross (EV) Message: What exactly is the bet with JW? That she won't respond at all, or that she will never respond with anything meaningful? Jim, maybe you need to go back to Cult Studies 101. I'm sure your local community college offers something in that area. I think you've been out of action too long. See, it's like this. All the so called 'positions' in a cult are totally make believe and just to teach the ego a lesson in how utterly worthless one truly is. There is only one position that matters, and that's face down on the floor in front of the cult leader, in this case M or BM or GM or GMJ. Linda Gross I am sure is whooping it up right now sharing with her cult colleagues how outrageous your idea is that the position of 'President' would actually mean something! John - cult member during the administration of President Dennis Marciniak Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 17:49:04 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: John Subject: New letter to Linda Gross (EV) Message: John, You mean I'm naive or something? If that's what you're getting at, please, don't beat around the bush. That makes me sketchy. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 22:20:10 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Jim Subject: New letter to Linda Gross (EV) Message: 'That makes me sketchy.' Sketchy? Now you're accusing me of making you sketchy? What does that mean? Is that some Canadian term? Talk straight man, don't beat around the bush. You're making me edgy. BTW, re this communique to the President of the world wide internation organization. Where are you faxing it to? Does she actually have an office, like with a title on the door? Maybe you could go to her office and demand some answers. M's just the front man, she's the one with the power. Blessed are the naive, for they shall be called the suckers of God. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 22:38:50 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: John Subject: New letter to Linda Gross (EV) Message: John, I don't have time to think about your post, just to respond to it. Listen, you, too, can correspond with the President of a world-wide organization. Her fax number is on my letter. I think it'd be best, though, to hold off and see if she's able to get an actual reply for my one, isolated request. Naively yours, Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 17:52:40 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: John Subject: I met that guy... Message: They used to allow me the rare honor of cleaning the Rawat's toilets before he arrived in town. I thought it made me quite special thank you. Dennis was there telling ,very seriously mind you, some story about how the lord of the universe had run out of gas and ....the CAR STILL RAN!!!!! all oohed and aaahed and felt the bliss within over that. I thought he ,Dennis, was way cool and that it was way cool to be SO CLOSE to one who had been in a car with the RAwat. I think that Dennis too felt himself to be quite special. We were all so special to be allowed in that house. Now I would rather clean my own house....... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 18:36:20 (EST)
From: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: G's mom Subject: I met that guy... Message: Does anyone know whatever happened to Dennis Marciniak? I liked Dennis a lot. He was a very decent guy, but I always got the impression that he took a lot of crap from BM. I can recall him returning from meetings with BM at the time he was president of DLM, in which BM was coming down heaving on him and others and when he returned, Dennis looked devestated after spending time with the lord. I agree with John and I think it's especially true now, that those 'official' positions don't mean shit to BM and I'm sure people like Linda know very little about what is going on. BM was actually quite negative about DLM, especially towards the end. He trusts very few people and, at least I am told, even sets those in power one against the other, using the gift of access to him as the carrot and withholding it as the 'stick.' I remember Dennis and others saying the BM used to use the terms 'their stock is up' and 'their stock is down' to describe how certain honchos and initiators were faring in relationship to him. Which he would mention to others in a half-joking fashion. It was such an arrogant and insipid way to describe human beings, with himself as the center of their universe, and using their 'devotion' to him to get what he wanted, or to play his games. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 19:07:56 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: I met that guy... Message: I remember Dennis and others saying the BM used to use the terms 'their stock is up' and 'their stock is down' to describe how certain honchos and initiators were faring in relationship to him. Actually, I remember Raja Ji vamping on that theme during one of his rambling, obtuse and unintelligble satsangs in the late 70s. As for your persistent skepticism regarding Ms. Gross, Joe don't you have any respect for the office of the 'president', for god's sake? We're not talking vice-president, you know. President! And of what? Of an entire world-wide organization! Come on. You're just envious, aren't you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 19:28:42 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: I met that guy... Message: Come on. You're just envious, aren't you? Yes, I admit it. I do so miss being a DLM middle manager and driving around in one of those blue Dodge Darts that DLM bought. Nothing has been as satisfying since. But now that you mention it, there probably IS a vice-president of EV. Probably the only person in the world who knows LESS about what is going on with BM and his cult than Linda Gross. By the way, Jim, I didn't know a bet you a grand. Can you at least tell me what the bet is about so I know whether I won or not? Also, I just wanted to say to everyone that I watched John Hockenberry do a report on Scientology last night on TV that gave me the creeps. That is one evil organization that doesn't even care to cover up their vicious attempts to destroy people who leave the organization and attempt to criticize them. At least BM isn't together enough to do something like that, thank god, or all of us could be in trouble. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 19:50:21 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: I met that guy... Message: By the way, Jim, I didn't know a bet you a grand. Can you at least tell me what the bet is about so I know whether I won or not? Let me see if I get an answer first. Dodge dart .. very funny. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 03:52:59 (EST)
From: Nobody #9 Email: None To: JW Subject: VIPs & Dodge Darts Message: A whole army of Presidents, VPs, Middle Managers, and saffron robed bald guys driving around Dodge Darts. Yeah, that is funny. And what is even funnier is how all us lowly foot soldiers looked up to you guys driving around in those Dodge Darts and thinking of you as the real VIPs, the high flying, super stars of DLM. We thought that you were in the KNOW, fully realized beings, mind reading saints. Our own little paternalistic hierarchy. Not too much unlike anything else, I suppose. However torturous it was, is or might have been, I think that some of us got some really out-there stories and memories. I can still picture you or any number of VIPs like you and some other DLM-DUO person driving around sharing most significant, meaningful satsang and Bholi Shriing and all that stuff in those polyester clothes. The real miracle for me was that I wasn't good enough to get into the ashram. And God knows I tried. Bhole Shri! P.S. There's no offense intended. In retrospect, it's pretty funny. We were REALLY out of our minds! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 09:40:18 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Nobody #9 Subject: VIPs & Dodge Darts Message: Nobody, Yes, you've certainly tapped a vein here. Inside the ashram or out, I, too, was unduly impressed, as were we all, by the faux prestige of Maharaji's divine bureaucrats. Of course, the cooler they were, the more deadpan and lifeless, the greater the mystique they could cultivate. Right Willie Svob? Mike Dettmers? Hmm? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 13:32:28 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Nobody #9 Subject: VIPs & Dodge Darts Message: Hi, Nobody: You seem to remember the same stuff I do. A whole army of Presidents, VPs, Middle Managers, and saffron robed bald guys driving around Dodge Darts. Yeah, that is funny. Yes, it was funny. Those Darts were almost indestructible. They ran and ran. Had almost no power, though. Going up a freeway entrance ramp and getting on the freeway were always frightening experiences. They forced you to look at the altar to Maharaji on the dashboard of every one of those cars, and to remember holy name, shove you tongue back down your throat, etc. I can still picture you or any number of VIPs like you and some other DLM-DUO person driving around sharing most significant, meaningful satsang and Bholi Shriing and all that stuff in those polyester clothes. Do you remember ME? God, I hope not! But I doubt it bacause, I never made it to the category of 'VIP' but I did have the proper polyester uniform. That was also indestructable, being a petroleum product. But you have to remember that polyester was actually quite trendy in those years. I remembered this while watching two recent movies in which the stories take place in that period: Boogie Nights and The Ice Storm. Lots of ugly polyester clothes in both films. And that point about sharing 'significant, meaningful satsang,' or at least trying to, is also true. I think I remained a premie for awhile, and refrained from expressing how I was really feeling and the doubts I was having, because I felt it was important to 'stay focused' for the good of the other premies. What a crock! The real miracle for me was that I wasn't good enough to get into the ashram. And God knows I tried. So, who kept you out? That nazi David Smith, maybe? Did they tell you why you weren't 'good enough?' Whatever kept you out, you are indeed fortunate in that respect. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 15:21:54 (EST)
From: Iola Email: None To: JW Subject: David Smith Message: I had the pleasure of driving him recently. He said, 'I am one of those persons who never gets told, 'There is something about you.' After that, I made it a point rush up to him at every event and say 'Did anyone ever tell you ther is something about you?' Of course there always is--a harbinger of bad news--MJ needs more money. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 15:57:26 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Iola Subject: David Smith Message: Iola, you seem like a very nice person, but I may have to go and throw up now. Just kidding (sort of). How come you did that? And what is it about him? Smith, I mean. (gag, barf). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 10:22:29 (EST)
From: Paul Email: None To: JW Subject: David Smith Message: I, for one, will always be grateful to him, because if it wasn't for his unbearable rigidity, I might not have moved out of the ashram. Paul Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 13:09:27 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Paul Subject: David Smith Message: Smith's sadism and rigidity also got me to question BM and his cult big time, to leave the ashram and the cult, at least it was the 'straw' that finally got me to realize I couldn't stand it anymore. I suppose there is some credit due there, but he was still a sadistic jerk, and since he felt sanctimonious and righteous that he was doing those abusive things for the living god he was serving, it only made it worse. So, to give him credit for that is 'damning by faint praise.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 14:24:27 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: My phone call with David Smith Message: About a year or so ago I called David Smith. I can't find the number right now. Maybe I tossed it. I wouldn't be surprised if I did because, really, with ALL due respect to David, the call was a waste of money. First, I left him a bunch of messages. A bunch. Then -- hey' that's it! -- he called me. It's still a little hard for me to imagine this guy intimidating anyone (although he was the person whose ultimatum pressured me to leave the ashram [THANK YOU, DAVID!!]). This guy was a cipher! I mean, there was nothing there. Nothing! I tried to talk with him about the differences I perceived between the Maharaji I'd signed on with and the skipper I deserted eight or ten years later (I can't exaclt figure out when I became an 'ex'). It was as if he'd hever had a conversation before. Like he wasn't programmed for it, like his software had been nuetralized or something. He just couldn't do it. I'd say something, he'd pause and then, glance by my point on the way to saying that 'Maharaji really wants us to..' I told him I didn't give a shit about what Maharaji wanted. I still doubt that he understood that. Finally, like with Shri Raja Ji, I got fed up and told him that really what I wanted was a chance to communciate with Maharaji himself. He suggested I write a letter. I told him I had and got no answer. He replied that maybe I should write him another letter. I asked him what I should do if, as with the first, I got no answer. Guess what he suggested? Come on, Red Heels, premieji, you guys are real smart. Guess what he said. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 16:46:02 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Iola Subject: David Smith Message: Just a bit of history: David Smith, as far as I can tell, is the most-hated premie ever. Personally, Jagdeo was it for me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 17:26:30 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Rick Subject: David Smith/Jagdeo Message: Just a bit of history: David Smith, as far as I can tell, is the most-hated premie ever. Personally, Jagdeo was it for me. Rick, David Smith was pretty hated, but I don't know if he still is. Apparently Iola had a nice experience with him. Actually, he wasn't a nazi ALL the time, but boy, when he was, it was hell. Now, why did you hate Jagdeo? He didn't try to molest you too, did he? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 19:01:40 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: JW Subject: David Smith/Jagdeo Message: Hey JW, I hated Jagdeo because he treated me like shit when I came to him for advice about moving into the ashram. My marriage was pretty much over but we weren't divorced. I was even more concerned about my three year old son. Jagdeo gave me the generic rap they gave at that time; he even was little bit understanding. Then he talked to my wife (at the time) about it all, and then talked to me again. I don't know what my wife said to Jagdeo but when he talked to me again, he told me, 'Well, she doesn't even love you. You see, all you have is Maharaji! You're wife is happy to get rid of you.' He was chuckling, snickering and gloating. It was ugly. I was really vulnerable. The good news is I didn't move into the ashram. That same week there was a knowledge review and Jagdeo gave the incorrect sequence of the techniques. I think he said nectar came last, when, at the time, it was supposed to be the word. A premie corrected him, but when Jagdeo realized he goofed, he pretended that the sequence had changed and he was just informing us. It was almost like you could see the split second he realized he'd just gone on for half an hour about the incorrect sequence, and then, when he was corrected, realized what a fool he'd made of himself; so he just made the mistake into a lie and told us this was the new sequence. The real reason I hated Jagdeo was because of the look he had on his face. I must mention that I've heard people express more distaste, more times, for David Smith than any other premie or initiator. And not just here on the Forum but other places. After Jagdeo, my least favorite was Ira Woods. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 19:27:35 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I'm trying to remember... Message: the name of an initiator who was around, probably during the late 70's, who was rather short, maybe a redhead, and rather charismtic. He used to give satsang at festivals in Miami. And much better than the greatest magician himself. Randy??? Anyone know who I'm talking about and what happened to him? eb Ironed Gurucharnanand's boxer shorts in '74. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 23:37:45 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: eb Subject: I'm trying to remember... Message: eb, Given your strong sexual proclivities, I think you might be talking about Randy Prouty. He had black hair, not red, but he was a real looker and all the premie sisters, and some of the brothers, had crushes on him. He was a kind of a dynamic speaker and usually gave satsang at programs. I could never figure out where he got the money for the incredible wardrobe of designer clothes he always had, since he was supposed to be a renunciate. To tell you the truth, I always wondered if he was gay, because I never saw a straight man who was as into clothes as Randy was. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 00:53:18 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: JW Subject: Randy Prouty Message: Hi JW, Yes, that was his name. He and his clothes were beautiful. I thought he was either gay or a real tease. He acted as though he was unaware of how attractive he was; in fact, I was convinced at one point that his appeal was the result of his surrendering so completely. Now I think it was the clothes. Speaking of which: BM is really into clothes. Hmmm, I wonder. Maybe a bit of the latent within inside him? eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 13:21:46 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: eb Subject: Randy Prouty Message: Yes, Maharaji was REALLY into expensive clothes, too. In fact, I think Randy and others used that as an excuse to be into expensive clothes too. As for BM's sexual orientation, who the hell knows? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 14:30:35 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Don't try to hard Message: To tell you the truth, I always wondered if he was gay, because I never saw a straight man who was as into clothes as Randy was. Really, how parochial, JW. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 14:57:50 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Not Parochial But Insightful Message: So, there. It's also in the same vein that you can't tell a jewish joke unless you're jewish. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 19:51:19 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Rick Subject: David Smith/Jagdeo Message: God, Rick. That's awful. It's one thing to get trounced on, it'something else to get trounced on my one of the lord's holy representatives at a time when you are trying to dedicate your life. I think I know what you are talking about regarding that 'look' on Jagdeo's face. It did reflect a spiritual egotism and perhaps a delight in lording it over premies. I never had a direct run-in with Jagdeo. In one of the ashrams I lived in, he was actually there on an off, sometimes for a month at a time, for what seemed like the better part of a year sometime in the late 70s. I remember one time he said that he 'really liked it' when BM got heavy and yelled. I guess that's a certain form of masochism. The thing with David Smith was that he, also, had access to people when they were very vulnerable -- Ashram premies, or premies wanting to move into the ashram. And I always got the feeling, from the look on his face and the obvious air of satisfaction about him, that he REALLY LIKED hurting people. That is what REALLY freaked me out about him -- it was that streak of sadism. It was the delight he took is doing really awful things to people, really engaging in psychological abuse of the worst sort. I actually confronted him on that once. He kind of tacitly admitted it, and also acted like he was shocked. But then, shortly thereafter, he retaliated at me, in the very same sadistic fashion, for having been honest with him. So, it wasn't just that he was heavy, cruel and mean, it was that he enjoyed it and because those he inflicted his abuse on weren't able to defend themselves, being the surrendered ashram devotees they were supposed to be. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 22:42:48 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: cadbury@compuserve.com To: JW Subject: David Smith/Jagdeo Message: Jagdeo told a close friend of mine that he was the reincarnation of a past eprfect master.....interesting since I hear that the Holy One has said that there is no reincarnation. Ah well....seems revisionism is always popular. JC Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 22:42:51 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: cadbury@compuserve.com To: JW Subject: David Smith/Jagdeo Message: Jagdeo told a close friend of mine that he was the reincarnation of a past eprfect master.....interesting since I hear that the Holy One has said that there is no reincarnation. Ah well....seems revisionism is always popular. JC Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 03:55:11 (EST)
From: Nobody #9 Email: None To: JW Subject: David Smith/Jagdeo Message: David Smith: Other than one strange incident and not having seen his sadistic side, I feel sorry for him. He's so wooden that he makes Al Gore look alive. I had a deal with Jagdeo once at Denver HQ. I was always getting audiences with the mahatmas and big stars to have them tell me what to do with my life because I was so lost. My audience with Jagdeo was delayed because he was on the phone with M. When he got off and approached me the first thing he asks was if I was in my parent's will or had a trust fund or something of that nature. Well, I had no clue. Yet, someone in my family was half way through a terminal illness. As naive as I was at the moment I thought he was clairvoyant or something, but being a little smarter than that put it together that such thinking on his part was a normal part of his 'job' and maybe had the urgency enhanced by his telephone call. I don't remember anything else - probably useless. A while later I had another audience with a western big star who was one of the first four, one with a huge ego and a constant arrogant sneer as he looked down his nose on you. During my audience with him I asked if I should go back to college. Of course, you shouldn't go back to college he told me. Later that evening at a 'community meeting' he spoke and, of course, had plenty of fodder from the conversation with me. Essentially, without mentioning me by name he publicly castigated and harangued me all while pointing his finger in my direction. It was humiliating. I guess that I had sense enough to know that he was just an asshole and it wasn't a Lila. I think the real point I'd like to make is that the situation was rife for abuse. Sure, I had my own baggage and was young and directionless, but then that was part of the trip. We were told and we told ourselves over and over again that the world and everything in it was something to avoid. Accomplish nothing. Attempt nothing. Achieve nothing. At least that's the message I was hearing. And sure DLM wasn't the only source of that message. And then you're in this deal where nothing is clear and it's a puzzle and there's rules, but you don't know them. There's fairy tales, mythology and prophecy. And then we enshrine and empower these muthafawkers to fawk with our heads. Too much. I'm still pissed. Lambs to the slaughter. There, it's off my chest. Now, I can back to college and get the knowledge. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 08:54:34 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Nobody #9 Subject: David Smith/Jagdeo Message: 'A while later I had another audience with a western big star who was one of the first four, one with a huge ego and a constant arrogant sneer as he looked down his nose on you.' Sounds like Mahatama Pompousassanad Ji (Arthur Brigham). 'We were told and we told ourselves over and over again that the world and everything in it was something to avoid. Accomplish nothing. Attempt nothing. Achieve nothing.' Hey, just to confirm that wasn't something we or the intitiators made up. That was the message of the Lord of the Universe. I have some tapes from the 70's and M in his satsangs he makes fun of careers. He talks about how meaningless and unimportant they are. All those career paths lead nowhere. The important thing is that: Guru Maharaj Ji is here now, Knowledge is here now, the grace is here now, don't miss this opportunity to dedicate. Funny how he constantly referred to grace, knowledge, and himself as one and the same thing. But now we hear that he never claimed he was God!!! So, we shouldn't blame ourselves or the intitiators, we didn't corrupt the guru's message. The guru is and was the chief idiot responsible. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 13:06:09 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Nobody #9 Subject: David Smith/Jagdeo Message: Nobody, What you say is so true and very well expressed, especially about the cult system being rife with abuse. I think when I saw other premies being abused, it really made me question the entire trip. I think I wasn't able to see the abuse inflicted on me, because I justs blamed myself, but I could see it better in others. I still get angry about it too, but I find talking about it, and seeing that I'm not the only one who felt that way, is very therapeutic. Thanks for your post, Nobody, I think they are helpful to a lot of people. JW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 18:41:05 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Nobody #9 Subject: David Smith/Jagdeo Message: Dear Nobody #9, Loved your post. eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 12:07:40 (EST)
From: Iola Email: None To: Rick Subject: David Smith Message: Wait a minute--I don't really know the guy. I picked him up two hours away from my town. He slept all the way and I drove. I booked and paid for his hotel room (next door to a strip palace which was cheap (he didn't like it). He was saying that nobody ever notices his premie sparkle. Strangers don't come up to him and say 'There's something about you, so I decided do that instead of saying hello when I saw him at events. He seemed like a nice guy to me, but they're all nice 'till ya get ta know em.' (Strangers I mean) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 21:14:31 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Iola Subject: David Smith Message: I had a feeling from your impartiality that you didn't know him real well. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 15:46:01 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Rick Subject: Rick/Jagdeo Message: That story about Jagdeo is horrible!! It has been my experience with DLM that whenever they wanted someone to do something, they would say WHATEVER to get that person to do it. When he said that your wife was happy to get rid of you, it SOUNDS like he said that to you in order to have a certain outcome-you moving into the ashram, or devoting more or whatever HE/THEY wanted. It probably wasn't even true. I think those people would say or do anything to get what they wanted. He had no regard for your feelings, only HIS OUTCOME. It's really pretty typical. I am just very sorry to hear it happened to you, man. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 21:18:54 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: VP Subject: Rick/Jagdeo Message: Hi VP, My marriage, at the time, was on the rocks, and Jagdeo was in essence telling my wife that I was considering leaving her for good to move in the ashram. It wouldn't be remarkable if she was less than complimentary about me. It was remarkable how Jagdeo capitalized on that and disregarded my feelings. Good thing it backfired. Thanks for your support. Rick Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 03:17:29 (EST)
From: Nobody #9 Email: None To: JW Subject: VIPs & Dodge Darts Message: Well, since I still have some ties to the mothership and I'm quite paranoid about posting too much incriminating and identifying information I can only say that D. Smith and I did cross paths and he may have kept me out of the ashram, but I only view my interaction with as humorous in retrospect. Oh, yes. I know who you are. You probably don't know me. Nobody knows me, thankfully. I was out on the fringe starting in the mid 70's. I don't think that I know anyone else on the forum here, although it's hard to tell with these names. I might have met Jim once when I passed through North Vancouver and he let me crash on his floor if that was him. I did try to get into the ashram back in that wave of the late 70s. Attended numerous of these Saturday afternoon meetings. Then one Saturday there was gonna be a special audio tape that was for premies only. One of the guys, not you, but you might have been there, had the 'gall' to say that this was for premies only and asked 'Have you received knowledge, brother?' And this guy actually used to come to the premie house I lived in while he was an aspirant. Well, I was suitably miffed and left in a huff, having finally fully realized the knowledge that I would never get into the ashram. I think the only thing that I missed out on was all the free sex in the attics and basements. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 13:16:14 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Nobody #9 Subject: VIPs & Dodge Darts Message: Since you know who I am, I just want to say that I hereby apologize for any trip I might have laid on you or anyone else while in DLM. I do have some guilt about some of the stuff I did that, in retrospect, wasn't fully respectful of other people, both premies and others. I remember in DC we held those 'Sunday afternoon meetings' for premies considering the ashram. There was a lot of pressure put on premies to get them to commit. That came directly from BM. Funny how he just ignores that whole part of his history, along with the way he criticized careers, family, even having kids, and then, to this day, takes zero responsibility for the things premies gave up in their lives trying to do what he wanted. I think this is my biggest criticism of the BM. I can sort of accept that he didn't know what he was doing. I mean, I think that's obvious, but that he lacks the integrity to even address his mistakes and take responsbility is the height of immaturity, arrogance and just plain cowardice. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 14:28:28 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Nobody never stayed with me Message: I might have met Jim once when I passed through North Vancouver and he let me crash on his floor if that was him. Sorry, Nobody, that couldn't have been me. What year was it? Was the guy's name Jim? I could help you piece it together if you like. Did you lose a ring there or something? Sorry, it wasn't me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 13:47:59 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: JW Subject: Dephian School/Scientology Message: About 40 miles out of Portland, there's a boarding school called Delphian which is based on educational methods from L. Ron Hubbard. They make it look excellent with their brochures. It is very expensive! I'm tempted top visit and see what it's like. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 13:59:57 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: carol Subject: Dephian School/Scientology Message: Carol: Mt. Angel, right? I had a close friend who went to the school and became one of the top 'auditors.' He has since renounced scientology and was for a long time on their 'hit list.' He now runs a company in the PDX area called 'Hello Pages' and has a number of other ventures. They leave him alone since he tends to counter-attack. He once gave me a copy of the Scientology Dictionary, which sold at the time (late seventies) for about $1,200. It was fascinating. According to L. Ron, tooth decay is related to the evolution of mollusks. I can't help but think that M's references to the reasons for vegetarianism were adulterated from something L. Ron said. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 14:10:45 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Dephian School/Scientology Message: No, Mt. Angel has a Catholic Monastery. Delphian is out of the town of McMinnville. Maybe I'll look up that guy at Hello Pages! Does this mean we're descended from Mollusks? It's a leap! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 15:05:14 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: carol Subject: Delphian School/Scientology Message: Carol: The connection with Mollusks has to do with Hubbard's philosophy regarding 'engrams,' which are internal programs we carry from past lives, and are in the form of 'pictures' maintained in the nervous system. It is not so much that we are descended from Mollusks, but that we all WERE once Mollusks and still retain the engrams that we memorized in that era. Mollusks are like an idependent 'mouth,' get it? If you talk to Pat, tell him 'hello' from me. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 18:45:59 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: Carol Subject: Delphian School/Scientology Message: Carol, I don't know anything about this school, but if it has anything to do with Scientology, I'd sure steer clear of it. I was briefly involved with Scientology for about a year before receiving K., and can tell you it's a pretty major cult and will suck up all your money. We may have a lot of gripes about BM, but some of these groups make him pale by comparison. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 20:18:28 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Joy Subject: A little story Message: Joy: Here's a little story about L. Ron that my friend told me, and that I think has some credibility. In the 1940s or 50s L. Ron Hubbard and Robert Heinlein (Stranger in a Strange Land) were roommates who, as authors, collaborated to some extent on science fiction scenarios. As Heinlein was writing or thinking about Stranger... L. Ron made a bet with him that he could start a religion that was partly based on science fiction, and partly on naval discipline. Heinlein, of course, thought the idea preposterous. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 01:38:59 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Scott T. Subject: A little story Message: Scott, That pretty much describes Scientology; it was the science fiction part that lured me in, and the naval discipline part that got me to leave. No 'heart' whatsoever in the organization, though it was initially intellectually interesting. I don't really know what it's like now, though, but I imagine much the same. I am embarassed to admit some of the things that went on in that organization, it's stranger than BM's in a lot of ways. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 16:31:44 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Joy Subject: A little story Message: Joy: And it's just so wierd. Can you imagine starting a religious movement as a result of a bet with your roommate, who is clearly a more creative and more imaginative person than you? What a dope! Imagine what Robert Heinlein thought of him! -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 19:57:46 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: A little story Message: Scott, I am even more embarrased to admit this than some of the things that happened in the ashram: When I joined LRH's Sea Org (his equivalent of the IHQ) they make you sign a BILLION year contract in service to LRH and Scientology. They reckon this is valid, since once you receive your Scientology training and become 'clear' or 'OT' you can consciously reincarnate at will, and therefore will have one billion years of service ahead of you. (They were actually serious about this) Took three months, and I was outta there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 15:01:18 (EST)
From: Very Scared Email: None To: carol Subject: Dephian School/Scientology Message: I'm not too scared to post here about M. But I sure as hell will remain anon when denouncing scientology. CAROL - NO!. That's right NO!. don't do it, those scientologists are nuts and they are not as incompetent as premies. They earn a commision on the money they bring in for &$&@ sake. And they kill people who denounce them. And from what you've posted that I have seen, I can assure you that if you get involved with them you will eventually leave and want to denounce them. Stamp your foot over and over saying NO! NO! NO! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 21:24:28 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Very Scared Subject: Dephian School/Scientology Message: Sheesh, (to quote someone here!) All I did was mention I'd seen their school information and it 'LOOKED' impressive and was VERY expensive. I just wanted to go visit and see what the real kids there looked like and how or if the school mentions scientology, or if it's sort of hidden. I am in no danger of joining up or sending my child there!!! I'm a curious educator and mom, Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 00:05:13 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: G's mom Subject: I met that guy... Message: G's Mom: Dennis was there telling ,very seriously mind you, some story about how the lord of the universe had run out of gas and ....the CAR STILL RAN!!!!! That same thing happened to me in 1969, after sucking down about eight tabs of mescaline. The car (a gold mustang) ran out of gas after about 50 miles, but I drove it for another 80. Couldn't make it home on psychic energy though. I wasted too much trying to keep that damn mustang from melting. Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 00:14:29 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Scott T. and JW Subject: LOL... Message: LOL at Scott too having magical powers. JW I am in some sort of guilt mode these days. Feel bad I critisized Dennis M. who I hardly knew. I thought he seemed really nice too. And we all were guilty of saying things like that. Except the fringe premies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 00:17:17 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: G's mom Subject: LOL... Message: Dear mom, I don't think you criticized Dennis. You should hear some of the stuff I SAID as a premie!!!!! Dennis was a decent guy, but he was caught up in the same delusion we all were. JW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 09:15:18 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: G's mom Subject: I met that guy... Message: Dear G's mom, I'm not home enough to clean my house and god knows Jade, my 16 yr old is damn sick of it I wonder if BM or even Linda or this Dennis would do it? I'd even sit through a video if they would. I'd better go back up this thread and get that fax #! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 13:12:58 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Gross Letter to Linda Message: Quite frankly, I think you’re far too intelligent and responsible to accept such an empty position for any reason. My impressions are based solely on our several phone calls in which you’ve always struck me as intelligent, well-meaning and thoughtful. (Yippee for lawyers!!) Jim, I can't help but comment on this disingenuous, sarcastic statement of yours to a woman who is just trying to be as ignorant as possible so she function better in her job as a brick wall in the path of anyone reaching accessing the paranoid world of the Lord of the Universe. [The very idea that being a lawyer is refective of any intelligence or integrity whatsoever is so obviously ludicrous that the sarcasm is evident and transparent.] On the other hand, I hope it WAS sarcastic, otherwise, could this letter, taken in conjunction with your earlier fawning comments about Linda, suggest some secret desire to be 'sleeping with the enemy?' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 13:30:39 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: JW Subject: Jim as an intern? Message: I think JW you're onto something. We all know Jim admitted to worshipping any premie who even looked like they were important. I think he's star struck. He can't get over the fact that he's actually talking DIRECTLY to the PRESIDENT of a world-wide organization. Maybe he's hoping for an internship in her office or something. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 14:01:55 (EST)
From: Linda Tripp Email: None To: John Subject: Jim as an intern? Message: Ala Monica Lewinsky type internship? Can I have the tapes? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 14:03:07 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Linda Tripp Subject: Jim as an intern? Message: That's it, we'll send Jim in there with a WIRE!! Trouble is, I don't think Linda knows a damn thing! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 15:16:45 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Jim as an intern? Message: JW, Sarcasm isn't my thing. I thought you knew that. Really! Yes, what can I tell you. I think I've fallen in love. But John's right, it's not with Linda personally. It's with the office of the President of a world-wide organization. I just want to FEEL something, you know? It's been so long. I thought maybe if I could feel a little power or something. I remember thinking about this that day Raja Ji visited me. Here I was, having a drink with the hip jet-set guru bro'. Once, in Kissimee, Maharaji had joked (?) about siccing this guy on me if I delayed in attending satsang. Remember? Maharaji was going to build a Divine City, somewhere out away from who knows what, and Raja Ji would patrol the fields in his jeep looking for satsang stragglers. Oh how I wish we could have fulfilled that dream! Please, give me a moment here. Okay, I'm better. I just needed to really slow down a bit and remind myself that sometimes life doesn't work out as we expect but that, like seeds in the garden, new growth sprouts from death itself. That was MY dream, to live there and get patrolled and everything. Now I have to let it go. Please, another moment. Okay, okay. Where was I? Oh yeah, so there I was with Raja Ji and he's trying to set me up with some fancy pants instructor from MALIBU to help me work through all the changes and I'm thinking, 'I AM a lawyer now. If I get out to Malibu and start talking with these guys do you think there's any chance I can just kind of STAY there or something?' You know? I'm thinking this. But I blew it. I opened up my big fucking mouth -- yes, that's right -- and alienated the guy. I told him that it was a waste of time talking with him when it was his brother I needed. Shit! Let's face it, when Raja Ji drove off in his big black Mercedes, I went back up to my office. Yes, I need to be there. I need to FEEL something again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |