Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 12

From: Jun 13, 1998

To: Jun 20, 1998

Page: 4 Of: 5



Selena -:- Penthouse -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 20:34:51 (EST)
__Rick -:- Penthouse -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 21:52:27 (EST)
____Selena -:- Penthouse -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:00:33 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Penthouse -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:19:40 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Penthouse -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:38:37 (EST)
______Rick -:- Penthouse -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:18:13 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Penthouse -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:52:09 (EST)
__________Rick -:- Penthouse -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:01:45 (EST)
__Judex -:- to Selena -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 04:11:20 (EST)

x -:- x files -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:43:18 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- x files -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:47:12 (EST)
____Selena -:- x files -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:55:51 (EST)
______Sir David -:- x files -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 21:14:52 (EST)
________charles -:- x files -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:31:05 (EST)
__________Katie -:- x files -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:53:06 (EST)
____________John -:- England memories?? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:01:31 (EST)
______________Katie -:- England memories?? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:13:40 (EST)
________________John -:- our old friend Martin -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:17:34 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- our old friend Martin -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:35:09 (EST)
________VP -:- grasshopper man -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 15:25:47 (EST)
__eb -:- x files -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 22:33:59 (EST)
__Guenther's mom -:- x files -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 23:55:57 (EST)
____G's mom -:- travel...I cheated in Rome.... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 11:19:32 (EST)
______Carol -:- travel...I cheated in Rome.... -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 03:07:58 (EST)
________Judex -:- travel...I cheated in Rome.... -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 03:15:52 (EST)
________G's mom -:- travel...I cheated in Rome.... -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 11:28:41 (EST)

JW -:- Deprogramming -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 16:59:31 (EST)
__Katie -:- Deprogramming -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:27:47 (EST)
__Rick -:- Deprogramming -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:29:31 (EST)
____JW -:- Deprogramming -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:36:17 (EST)
__eb -:- Deprogramming -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:42:27 (EST)
____JW -:- Deprogramming -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:49:32 (EST)
______eb -:- Deprogramming -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:14:47 (EST)
____Selena -:- Deprogramming -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:38:29 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Deprogramming -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:30:11 (EST)
________JW -:- Deprogramming -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:42:28 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- Deprogramming -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 20:05:26 (EST)

Rick -:- BM's Threats -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 13:11:02 (EST)
__bb -:- BM's Threats -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 13:28:53 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- BM's Threats -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 14:06:51 (EST)
______Carol -:- BM's Threats -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 21:53:29 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- BM's Threats -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:31:32 (EST)
____carol -:- Rajeshwar.... -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 21:51:10 (EST)
__JW -:- BM's Threats -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:00:36 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- BM's Threats -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:53:50 (EST)
______JW -:- BM's Threats -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:21:01 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- BM's Threats -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 20:11:16 (EST)
__________JW -:- BM's Threats -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 20:24:13 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- BM's Threats -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 23:57:00 (EST)
______________JW -:- BM's Threats -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:51:37 (EST)
________________Scott T. -:- BM's Threats -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:23:37 (EST)
__________________JW -:- BM's Threats -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:29:48 (EST)
____________________Iola -:- BM's Threats -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:06:43 (EST)
______________________JW -:- BM's Threats -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:15:08 (EST)
________________________Scott T. -:- BM's Threats -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 14:44:17 (EST)
__Sir David -:- You're no Judas -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 21:06:21 (EST)
____Selena -:- You're no Judas -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 21:13:24 (EST)
______Sir David -:- Silly me -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 22:10:03 (EST)
________charles -:- Silly me -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 02:06:50 (EST)
________Iola -:- Silly me -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:23:13 (EST)
______Iola -:- You're no Judas -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:15:13 (EST)
________red heels -:- What is EV? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 16:20:44 (EST)
__________Iola -:- What is EV? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 18:22:32 (EST)

S.F. -:- Prakash: illegible bits here -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:56:51 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- HYP: some more? -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 13:08:13 (EST)
____S.F. -:- HYP: some more? -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:48:09 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- HYP: some more: YES -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:26:50 (EST)
________S.F. -:- HYP: some more: YES -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:33:55 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- LOTS of interesting stuff! -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 03:36:03 (EST)

Brian -:- Happy Monday -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 09:52:33 (EST)
__Peter -:- Calling RT -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 10:42:04 (EST)
____Gunther's mom -:- thinking more about your post. -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:06:59 (EST)
______Gunther's mom -:- post above is unrelated (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:10:19 (EST)
______VP -:- G's mom -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:58:08 (EST)
________G's mom -:- me -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:32:08 (EST)
____RT -:- The Cards on way -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:20:47 (EST)
______Selena -:- The Cards on way -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 15:53:43 (EST)
________RT -:- The Cards -How to. -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:32:26 (EST)
__________Selena -:- The Cards -How to. -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 21:03:48 (EST)
______Iola -:- The Cards on way -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:36:11 (EST)
________JW -:- Chicago Program -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:38:32 (EST)
__________Iola -:- Chicago Program -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 22:30:10 (EST)
________RT -:- Cards Volunteer needed -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:46:04 (EST)
__________Katie -:- I Volunteer -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:51:12 (EST)
____________Katie -:- P.S. to RT -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:55:39 (EST)
______________RT -:- RT duty -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 20:09:50 (EST)
________________Katie -:- RT duty -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 22:06:53 (EST)
______________VP -:- Katie is secretive -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:32:19 (EST)
____david f. -:- moose turd pie -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:28:23 (EST)
__Guess Who -:- Happy Monday -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 16:54:19 (EST)
__Guess -:- Happy Monday -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 16:57:16 (EST)
____Brian -:- Happy Monday -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:10:29 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Early Tuesday -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:44:22 (EST)
__GM -:- Happy Monday -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 16:59:01 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Brian, Anon, D@vid,Rick -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:45:51 (EST)
____Rick -:- Brian, Anon, D@vid,Rick -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:12:46 (EST)
______Rick, -:- You've created a monster -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:27:00 (EST)
________Robyn -:- You've created a monster -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:30:09 (EST)
____JW -:- Brian, Anon, D@vid,Rick -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:28:43 (EST)
______Robyn -:- You go girl!! -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:33:05 (EST)
________charles -:- You go girl!! -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:38:17 (EST)
____Anon -:- Brian, Anon, D@vid,Rick -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:25:58 (EST)
______Selena -:- Brian, Anon, D@vid,Rick -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 20:07:30 (EST)
________Katie -:- Robyn's cussin' mouth... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 01:22:42 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Katie, Anon, rated:pristine -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 08:17:25 (EST)
____________Anon -:- Katie, Anon, rated:pristine -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:40:40 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- Katie, Anon, rated:pristine -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:58:18 (EST)
________________Anon -:- Katie, Anon, rated:pristine -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:30:19 (EST)
__________________Robyn -:- Katie, Anon, rated:pristine -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:35:03 (EST)
____________________Anon -:- Katie, Anon, rated:pristine -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:49:35 (EST)
____________________Judex -:- cracking the whip - to Robyn -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 02:50:07 (EST)
__________Stephen Harris -:- Robyn's cussin' mouth... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 23:01:50 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Books and Insults -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 09:27:25 (EST)
______Peter -:- condescending pip -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 23:15:18 (EST)
________Selena -:- condescending pip -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:13:11 (EST)
__________Peter -:- not you -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:42:15 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Dear Selena -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 08:28:26 (EST)
________Robyn -:- condescending pip -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 08:19:24 (EST)
__Anon -:- Happy Monday -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:11:09 (EST)
____Selena -:- Happy Monday -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:26:57 (EST)
______charles -:- not so happy -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:53:41 (EST)
________Robyn -:- in defence of Selena -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 08:35:52 (EST)
____JW -:- Happy Monday -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:33:01 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Happy Monday -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:50:30 (EST)
______Anon -:- To JW -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 20:55:37 (EST)
________JW -:- To JW -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:12:55 (EST)
__________Anon -:- To JW from Condescending Pip -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:25:03 (EST)
____________JW -:- To JW from Condescending Pip -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:59:59 (EST)
______________Anon -:- To JW from Condescending Pip -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 20:07:25 (EST)
____Brian -:- Happy Monday -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:53:02 (EST)
______Anon -:- Happy Monday -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 20:39:56 (EST)
______charles -:- Happy Monday -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 01:39:14 (EST)
________Judex -:- Happy Monday -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 03:27:05 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- Happy Monday -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:50:06 (EST)
____________Judex -:- Souvenirs -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 03:03:23 (EST)

Judex -:- To Keith - Apology from Judex -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 07:37:04 (EST)
__Keith -:- To Keith - Apology from Judex -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 21:40:58 (EST)
____Judex -:- To Keith - Apology from Judex -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 03:34:42 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- About leaving carrots -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 01:05:44 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- About leaving carrots -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 01:22:30 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- About leaving carrots -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 03:28:21 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- About leaving carrots -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 08:47:36 (EST)

Just -:- Testing the New Thread Block -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 21:55:57 (EST)
__Censored premie -:- Testing the New Thread Block -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 22:18:52 (EST)
____VP -:- Talk about paranoia -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 22:38:16 (EST)
______Katie -:- Talk about paranoia -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 23:07:20 (EST)
________CP -:- isn't paranoid -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 03:14:56 (EST)
__________Anon -:- CP is paranoid -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 05:05:14 (EST)
____________CP -:- Missed the point Anon -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 07:24:14 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- You haven't got a point -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 09:06:35 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Forum and committee again! -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:18:17 (EST)
______________The truth is invisable -:- to CP(crack pot) Bruce -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:54:02 (EST)
______________Anon -:- Missed the point Anon -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:53:23 (EST)
________________charles -:- who is what? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 02:31:51 (EST)
__________________Anon -:- who is what? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:51:45 (EST)
________________CP -:- Missed the point Anon -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 06:41:40 (EST)
__________Katie -:- censorship - a clarification -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 10:59:58 (EST)
______Iola -:- Talk about paranoia -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 23:12:51 (EST)
________VP -:- Go, Iola! -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 23:22:11 (EST)
________JW -:- Talk about paranoia -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 14:48:46 (EST)
____VP -:- P.S. To 'supposedly' censored -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 23:27:36 (EST)
______Iola -:- Duties of Contact Person -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 00:08:57 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Duties of Contact Person -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 00:23:10 (EST)
__________Selena -:- Duties of Contact Person -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 16:11:15 (EST)
________Sir David -:- Duties of Contact Person -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 07:39:27 (EST)
__________Selena -:- Duties of Contact Person -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 16:17:48 (EST)
____________Judex -:- Duties of Contact Person -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 03:43:41 (EST)
________VP -:- Duties of Contact Person -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:29:10 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- 'Openess' of EV -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 13:16:21 (EST)
____________Selena -:- 'Openess' of EV -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 16:21:24 (EST)
______________Jean-Michel -:- 'Openess' of EV:very far! -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:36:37 (EST)
________________Selena -:- 'Openess' of EV:very far! -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 20:51:54 (EST)
__________________Jean-Michel -:- 'Openess' of EV:very far! -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 03:55:17 (EST)
____Brian -:- Testing the New Thread Block -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 08:43:14 (EST)
______bb -:- Limiting theBlockhead -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 13:04:03 (EST)
______Rick -:- Testing the New Thread Block -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:01:58 (EST)
________Judex -:- Testing the New Thread Block -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 03:59:09 (EST)


Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 20:34:51 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Penthouse
Message:
Now *that* got your attention, didn't it?
Anyone remember the Penthouse article? It came out sometime in the 70's - maybe mid 70's. And if it's in the archives just tell me and I'll look. No need to pull off my limbs or anything.
All I remember was it said something about BM and his family being in the God business for generations and I think they gave some details. Being a good premie I didn't read it and being sexually grossed out by the husband I wanted to divorce, I didn't want it around for the obvious reasons. Anyway, I'd love to read it if anyone has it.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 21:52:27 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Penthouse
Message:
I don't have, but I do remember it. I think it was in one of the 1974 issues between February and April.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:00:33 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Penthouse
Message:
Thanks Rick. I would think someone here would have it but if not I'll try an internet search. But since it was so pre-internet I may not have much luck. Plus as I search through Penthouse I may get distracted.
anyway, uh, here is where I yet again admit what a dummy I am. How does one go about a search for a periodical article? I really want to read this. Is it available on microfish at the library perhaps? I'd be willing to scan it and post it if there is interest, and it is found either by me or someone else.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:19:40 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Penthouse
Message:
Selena:

You can get text versions of some newspaper and magazine articles, like the CS Monitor and Time by going to the website for that publication. In the case of Penthouse, however, I think they have a different sort of website (just guessing, of course). You might have better luck by calling around to college and city libraries to see if they have archives that go back that far, either as microfilm, or fiche, or in bound volumes. 1974 isn't that far back. You could probably save time by getting online at a college and doing a periodicals search. Also, if you're affiliated with a college, as a student or whatever, and your school doesn't have a particular article you can usually order it and they'll copy it for free. If you're an academic they'll even deliver it to your office. There are some services that will enable you to download articles or print them, but doubt if they'd have penthouse. Best bet is probably a college or city/county library.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:38:37 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Rick
Subject: Penthouse
Message:
God Rick,
Is that info in the card catalouge in your head!?
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:18:13 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Penthouse
Message:
Sheesh! I might have known. My friend used to call me date man, because I can remember where I was and what happened for almost every month of my adult life. But that was the only Penthouse issue I remember.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:52:09 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Rick
Subject: Penthouse
Message:
Dear Rick,
Is that the only issue you remember because of the interview or Miss Feb, Mar, or April :))
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:01:45 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Penthouse
Message:
Robyn,
Honest, I'm not into that sort of thing.
Rick
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 04:11:20 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: to Selena
Message:
Selena I think I don't acknowledge some people enough. A lot of stuff you and the other women say here helps me a lot, even just 'in passing' ie the way you phrase things, that I feel also but hadn't put into words. For example, being sexually grossed out by your husband, is how I still feel about my ex. That is a good way of describing it.Thank you.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:43:18 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: G's mom,VP and everyone
Subject: x files
Message:
Hi,
Thank you for the support, and the compliments regarding my being able to see through this cult from the start. As far as the confusion over my gender, let me now state that I am in fact male.I dont actually remember much about Jugdeo but find it interesting to hear that he is some type of sexual predator. At some point I intend to read over the archives when I get a chance, I think a 'best of' the forum is a good idea, and I understand someone is working on this. I dont have a computer yet, so the amount of time I have to read and post here is limited, it's hard to keep up, threads move fast here. I guess I was lucky to not fall for all of BM's BS, but it all seemed ridiculous to me, even as a kid. I didn't really have anyone to turn to and kind of had to deal with it myself, which was hard. For a long time I just ignored the whole thing (denial) and just moved on. A couple years ago I got in touch with a few relatives of premies, through Cult Awareness Network, over the phone, but we drifted apart. This forum though is a much better form of communication for this type of thing. This is really is a great resource, and I wish to thank the people who put this together. My mom is really 'hooked' still, and I am not sure how hard on her I should be. I've printed her a few things off of here and she has been at least willing to read them, and is fairly willing to discuss her involvement with Bm. However she loves to say 'It's not like that anymore' etc. She also thinks the people here just 'didn't get it' and are wasting there time here. I think she is afraid that its to late to turn back, that she has invested too much in this.Also if she backs out now she will essentially be admitting that I was right all along and she has been a big idiot with her head up her ass for over 20 years.Any feedback on how best to handle my mother would be appreciated.

thank you x
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:47:12 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: x
Subject: x files
Message:
x:

Let her be right.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:55:51 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: x files
Message:
I totally agree with you Scott. There is no reasoning with these people. after all, how do they then justify the $1000 they just spent to go to LA and not even see the ocean. Or Amaroo and not see the Great Barrier Reef.
I can imagine what it would be like around the water cooler
'Wow you went to Australia? Where'
'Oh, this place close to Brisbane'
'Really, did you get out to the reef?'
'uhhh.....'

I mean, they can't listen and they won't listen. I am conviced the very best way is to ignore that part of their lives. It drives them nuts and maybe, just maybe, it will get through someday.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 21:14:52 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Selena
Subject: x files
Message:
When I tell people I've been to Florida they immediately ask me about Disney World and what was it like. I have a hard job telling them that I spent two weeks in a field and the most interesting thing I saw was a giant grasshopper!
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:31:05 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: x files
Message:
I know this is at least somewhat beside the point but here goes. I would much rather see a giant grasshopper than Disneyland, Disneyworld, Disneyuniverse, Disneycosmos or any of the rest of the banal bullshit that cult promotes. And I do mean cult. Screw the official definition. I feel surrounded by cults that IMHO (or not so humble) fully qualify no matter what some none too subtle apologist for the comfy little status quo has to say about it. I'll be glad to talk about it, but after all this is altogether beside the point.
charles
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:53:06 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: charles and David
Subject: x files
Message:
I don't even TELL people I've been to England, because all I saw was a campground, the inside of buses, the Alexandra Palace, and (I think) Tralfaglar Square. Oh yeah, and the airport. It's pretty hard to explain.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:01:31 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: England memories??
Message:
Hey Katie speaking of England, I just went to England a couple weeks ago. Had such a great time seeing all the stuff tourists see there. I had an impossible time trying to explain to my 8 yr. old daughter that I had already been to London and yet had not seen anything.

But I was trying to remember that festival. Where did we sleep? Did we sleep in tents? I have no memory of that. I have no memory of a hotel either though. where and what did we eat? I do remember the awful stage with 5 thrones on it, and of course the long darshan line out in the country. I experienced nothing from that darshan. I can't figure out really why I stuck around after that. I attribute it to my desparate need to BELONG. The premie community existed and I was welcome in it and so...I just went along with it all.

Let me know if you remember the details of it. Now that I think of it I do remember we were always waiting for busses. Probably to take us from the camp site to the program and then back again. Gawd! I'm gonna cry!
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:13:40 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: John
Subject: England memories??
Message:
Hi John - We slept in these huge long tents - remember we had to bring sleeping bags? The tents were packed. I was with LAnn (we were only 17), and we had to squeeze in between two other 'sisters'. The bathrooms were outdoors - sinks were open air, toilets enclosed. Also, we ate outside (one thing I do remember about that was the porridge, which was GREAT.)

We did have to wait for buses to get to the Ally Pally and back, but at the time LAnn and I were hanging out with Mitchell Fagan and Martin Grey, and they had worked out the train system, which was much faster and didn't entail waiting in line (Martin would NEVER wait in line for anything). So we usually went with those guys on the train.

We did all do a big parade in downtown (?) London, ending at (I think) Tralfalgar Square, where people yelled out satsang speeches. That was all I saw of London. I remember sitting next to a guy in the Ally Pally one day, and he had a bunch of brochures from tourist attractions - had obviously been touring London INSTEAD of sitting for hours listening to satsang - and I was SHOCKED! In retrospect, of course, I wish I'd done that too!

I still have a picture of the inside of the Ally Pally with this huge portrait of Maharaji's head hung way up high. I can get it scanned if you want, or if anyone else would like to see it.

Anyway, that's what I recall. I also have a great story about LAnn and I coming off the charter plane in New York in the middle of the night, taking the bus and the subway to the lower East Side, and having to walk back many blocks to the dump where we were staying carrying suitcases with ropes tied around them at three in the morning. God must protect the innocent - or maybe we just looked TOO weird for anyone to mess with.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:17:34 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: our old friend Martin
Message:
Speaking of Martin Gray, you know he came through Raleigh some years ago, in fact I think we sent L'ann a copy of the poster. He was giving some talk on psychic power places on the planet. Talk about new age! The poster had his picture so I knew it was him and it described him as a 'renegade anthropologist'. (Or something like that.) The reason I knew about it was that whatever group he was with was renting our church to have him speak in and so I saw the poster.

BUT, I didn't get to go! I really wish I could have. He was always such a powerful speaker I'm sure I would have enjoyed it.
So, I don't know really what he was up to, other than it did not look like he was promoting the former lord of the universe.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:35:09 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: John
Subject: our old friend Martin
Message:
I saw a copy of that poster - pretty funny. I just sent it back to LAnn or I could quote it. He still looked exactly the same too!
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 15:25:47 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: grasshopper man
Message:
Grasshopper man,
You have done it to me again. I just choked on my drink-laughing. You are a very funny person. If I ever get to GB, I am going to look you up!! (But I want to see Big Ben and Parliment, too. Did you see European Vacation-the movie, I mean?) VP
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 22:33:59 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: x
Subject: x files
Message:
Hi x,

My mom's a mormon, and I was a mormon until I became a premie at 16. I consider the mormon church a cult because:
1) They claim to have the only true living prophet.
2) They claim to have the secret knowledge to get into heaven.
3) The lifestyle, although very supportive of families, keeps the members busy going to church 3x a week, proselytizing, and reinforcing the idea that the LDS are the chosen people.

The Guru Papers differentiates between cults and religions based on whether the leader's power is limited by scripture, tradition, or 'higher' authority. (p.32) Although the mormon religion is socially quite acceptable, and many of the teachers are right on, the doctrine which 'good' mormons must swallow results in rigid, programmed thinking. I believe that members of that particular religion feel good because they feel superior to others (IMHO).

So, x, what I was getting at in a round about way is: my mom saw me go through the guru trip. And when I quit, she acted as though she expected me to return to the mormon fold. She still sends me mormon literature sometimes. I can't understand why my mother, probably the most well-read woman I've ever met, believes the mormon bs. I told her that I couldn't believe in it and since then, we've agreed to disagree. We're very close, talk frequently, and I love her dearly. But I'll be damned if I'm gonna meet her in mormon heaven after this lifetime. Sheesh!

Good luck,
eb
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 23:55:57 (EST)
From: Guenther's mom
Email: None
To: x
Subject: x files
Message:
Dear X,
Thanks for your post. I have little advice about your mom as I have found arguing with premies is like arguing with a schizophrenic. It is pointless to try to talk them out of their delusions.

I would like to know how you are doing now and how you feel your childhood has impacted your life.

Good luck, G's mom
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 11:19:32 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: all
Subject: travel...I cheated in Rome....
Message:
Dear all,
This travel string is great. I went to Rome in 1977 for a program, festival....???? What was the pc ( premie correct) word then. While I was there I was with some less than perfect premies! Remember I was 16. We went to the Vatican!!!! Spent several hours I could have been meditating or doing service there! My best memory is I was holding my friend's 1 year old baby and we were spinning looking at the ceilings (quietly of course), this very ornately dressed man emerged from nowhere...a Bishop? A cardinal? ( not a Initiator that's fot certain ;)). He smiled benevolently and blessed us in some way. I thought he must of recognized how spiritually aware we were...GAG....maybe instead he was blessing me with the ability to trust myself enough to get out!
I wish I'd seen the coliseum up close;saw it from a bus. But we stayed in some sort of nunnery. This was also really cool they served what I now think was Cafe Latte and Italian rolls for breakfast. So I managed to bring back some good memories despite myself. Not that most of my time was not in a convention center. But I remember these few hours more.
G's mom
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 03:07:58 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: travel...I cheated in Rome....
Message:
During the Rome program, I was home with 2 kids and pregnant while my husband went. We took turns, I gave him a roll of film and a camera to take some pictures. He was an artist and took in some sights himself, but when I got the roll developed, he had taken about a dozen pictures of himself naked facing a mirror with a flash in the whole center of him! Nothing of Rome!Jim in Rome!!
Carol
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 03:15:52 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: travel...I cheated in Rome....
Message:
that's really funny.
what a man!
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 11:28:41 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: travel...I cheated in Rome....
Message:
LOL...

Sort of a variation of the people who steal lawn ornaments and take pictures of their travels and then send them back with their travel pics...

ie...Hubby's (insert fav pet term) goes to Rome...shoulda taken a pic with it at the Vatican?
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 16:59:31 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Deprogramming
Message:
During the time I was a premie, a few ashram premies I knew pretty well were kidnapped by their parents and 'deprogrammed' by professional 'deprogrammers' they had hired. What amazed me was that in almost all the cases the deprogramming was successful and the premie became an 'ex-premie' and never returned. On a couple of occasions I had the chance to see these people again, and for the most part they seemed completely normal and relaxed; they just weren't 'into' BM anymore and quite unaffected by the 'satsang' I gave them. They just sort of laughed and walked away.

Only rarely were such attempted deprogrammings unsuccessful. In some cases, the premie 'escaped' before the deprogramming actually happened and some of these people were quite paranoid that their parents would come after them again. If they were ashram residents they were sent to some other community and their location was kept secret. There was even a special section at programs, with extra security, for these 'in danger' premies.

Sometime later, I read a book by Ted Patrick, who was the notorious 'deprogrammer' so feared by premies. I recall that in his book Patrick he said that premies from the 'DLM cult' were some of the EASIEST to deprogram because BM's teachings were ridiculously simplistic, inconsistent, and his lifestyle was so outrageous in comparison to his message that external possessions don't bring happiness. I sort of chuckled when I read that.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:27:47 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Deprogramming
Message:
Hi JW - that quote from Ted Patrick is pretty funny. When I was a premie, the accepted gospel was that it was impossible to 'deprogram' premies because Maharaji(or whatever) was stronger than the deprogrammers. (I remember repeating this to people - how embarrassing.)
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:29:31 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Deprogramming
Message:
I remember deprogramming and Ted Patrick from the seventies. I was steadfast, at the time, that it would have been useless against my 'tremendous' convictions. And I still tend to think it would've made me dig my heals in. I'd still be opposed to that kind of action for anyone, even someone close to me.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:36:17 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Deprogramming
Message:
I always thought that I could survive a deprogramming with my beliefs intact as well. I was always surprised that premies with beliefs so similar to mine were so easily deporgrammed.

I was in no way suggesting that deprogramming is justified, especially if it involved kidnapping. I guess this is where my civil liberties instincts and my anti-cult instincts collide. I guess I believe that everyone should have the chance to walk away themselves; like I did.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:42:27 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Deprogramming
Message:
JW,
When I was a premie, I remember thinking that if my parents really loved me, they'd have me kidnapped and get me deprogrammed. My father called me after the Jonestown tragedy to make sure I wasn't in Guyana. He used to call BM 'gurumaroo.'

I am still baffled when I consider the depth of my dedication to DLM and the narrow vision belief system I maintained in order to justify Maharaji's behavior and lifestyle. I barely recognize myself as the same person I was when I was a premie.

With gratitude,
eb
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:49:32 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Deprogramming
Message:
eb,

After I left the cult, my parents told me that they had seriously considered having me deprogrammed. But they decided not to because, they said, that if it was unsuccessful, that I would be even FURTHER estranged from them, and be driven even deeper into the cult. Also, my dad is also a true civil libertarian and the idea of kidnapping just was too much for him. It turns out that they were considering doing it around 1978, the height of BM's most devotional period. They even met with someone referred to them by a business colleague of my dad's who had a son who was a moonie. They DID have their kid deprogrammed, and I guess it was successful. They were going to have to pay $15,000 to do it.

I remember wishing at times that they had gone through with it and had gotten me out 5 years ealier that I got out. But, I'm also glad I came to my own decision to leave and eventually did on my own.

JW
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:14:47 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Deprogramming
Message:
Dear JW,

I agree. (I needed to find out for myself). My personal deprogramming was sort of a slow extrication (for about 15 years) until I found this site. Then it was quite a jolt as I read yours other ex-premies' posts and really took a look at my own feelings, beliefs, etc. I feel as though my spiritual life has been reinvigorated since realizing that I'm no longer a premie. This indicates to me that I was and probably still am programmed to some degree. As I examine the beliefs I held for so long, I become more free and feel a helluva lot better.

Ridding myself of the truly rotton vegetables,
eb
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:38:29 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Deprogramming
Message:
gurumaroo, that's cute.
I remember these people we had just met at work invited us over to their house for drinks. They were a real fun couple and we liked them a lot. My husband at the time went to use their bathroom and came back with this strange look on his face. He asked them where they had gotten that poster. They said they saw it at the university and couldn't resist putting it on their bathroom door as a joke. It was a poster advertising the appearance of a 13 year old guru from india who was the Lord of the Universe and had that quote 'give me your mind and I will give you peace' or some such drivel. wish I had that poster now. At the time I was embarrassed and prayed that my idiot of a now ex husband would keep his big fat mouth shut but of course he didn't. He instead launched into the stupidest 'intellectual satsang' (how's that for an oxymoron) to try to convince them that M was really cool. ugh.
I wanted to die. for some reason I don't think we were invited back :)
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:30:11 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Deprogramming
Message:
Selena:

I really don't think I could have been de-programmed. Just because I was unbelievably stubborn in that era. I used to hound moonies and scientologists until they felt persecuted. God, I feel terrible about that! The Jehovah's Witnesses used to cross to the other side of the street when they saw me coming. When they came to my door I always tried to trick them into coming inside, where I'd have their undivided attention. Really, really sick and perverse.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:42:28 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Deprogramming
Message:
Many premies I knew, said they couldn't have been de-programmed either, but in the end some of these same people were. That's because, in my opinion, all deprogramming does is provide a speeded-up process that happens here on the forum. It just FORCES you to THINK for yourself, when it comes to BM and his cult. I'm sure some people could resist that just by shear force of will, but I think most premies would try to 'remember holy name,' do 'nectar,' resist talking, and just pray for BM to help them.

If they do that, and because it doesn't work, since there is no such thing as 'grace' from BM, most people DO start to think. And once they start thinking, it feels SO GOOD, they want to continue. Anyway, that's what some deprogrammed premies have told me. They said it wasn't really a BAD experience at all. No one threatened them or yelled at them. They just started to think for themselves again. The deprogrammers basically just stated verbally the doubts the premie had anyway, but wouldn't allow to come to the surface.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 20:05:26 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Deprogramming
Message:
Joe:

Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. I wasn't into meditaton as much as TALK. I pretty much knew what those guys had to say, and was secretly waiting for the chance to have THEIR undivided attention. Remember, this was very early on so there just wasn't much intelligence about Maharaji at the time. I was one of the few people who knew he was drinking, and had that pretty much tucked away safely. There was also the matter of the ulcers, but I knew the guy who used to vissit him in the hospital, and fed him almonds. Besides, I HATED those establisment shitheads. I had figureed they ether voted for Nixon, or LBJ. They had cheered at Kent State. I was motivated by longing, and already KNEW what the enemy offered. I just didn't know what Maharaji offered, yet.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 13:11:02 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: BM's Threats
Message:
Iola wrote: SPEAKING OF FEAR:

My friend reminds me the Rageshwar told him, 'A person who receives the techniques from MJ and then criticizes him will be reincarnated as a bat because it has no anus). MJ now says that there is only one lifetime allowed (no reincarnation).

He also said, 'This is the age of Kali Yuga and perhaps MJ is just weeding out the 'chaff.'

That is one of my fears. Am I a Judas?


Iola,
If you're a Judas, I'm a super-Judas. I had to get to the point where I didn't care if maharaji's reality or threats were true. I just found the whole thing so repulsive, I wasn't going to go along with it, even if it was true. I would've rather faced the punishment than live in his world. But surprise, my conclusion was that he's running a pack of lies. You may find when you get to the point that you don't care, that the fear you feel is a delusion. Try saying it... 'Maharaji is a lying sack of shit.' See what happens. Really, the boogieman won't get you.
Rick
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 13:28:53 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: BM's Threats
Message:
Rajeshwar was treated to a load of rawat penalties.

Rajeshwar was called to india because of some family illness
of his wife. Rawat would not let him return.

This left him in fear and guilt and knowing that he had pissed
off the LORD and rawat didnt let him off the hook for
decade at least. Rawat would get people way way out on a limb
of believing that he is who he claimed. And then cast them off
because of some alleged offense or whatever and leave them
flapping like a fish out of water.

Since the whole deal was not your breath but pleaseing the
fake lord, if the fake lord detonates in your direction,
your pathetic premie state of mind is crushed.

He has done that repeatedly and always. bruce the revisionist
would like to convince otherwise, but he can't.

Hi Rick
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 14:06:51 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: BM's Threats
Message:
BB (oops, I mean).. bb:

It is really sad that someone with the apparent inner strength of Rajeshwar could be treated in this way. I ultimately received Knowledge largely because of Rajeshwar. He was also the Mahatma for my Knowledge session. Once a municipal court judge in India he was clearly more clever and had greater integrity than Rawat. Wonder what happened to him.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 21:53:29 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: BM's Threats
Message:
Hey, Scott...I just said something like that! Carol
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:31:32 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: BM's Threats
Message:
Great minds travel together.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 21:51:10 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Rajeshwar....
Message:
was 'my' initiator. He had a strong and confident presence and made quite an impression on me. He had been a lawyer or judge or something previously. He and Gurucharanand with his amazing smile were M's best mahatmas. They had their own charisma. I believe they were/are? sincere in their practice and service. I was sorry to see the addition of western initiators. But then, the Hindi spiritual stories and beliefs were a big part of my attraction to K. Does anyone know what Rajeshwar is doing now?
Carol
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:00:36 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: BM's Threats
Message:
I think as has been mentioned before, BM also made threats about what would happen to you if you moved out of the ashram, even it you remained a practicing premie. He also said explicitly in that Christmas, 1979 satsang at DECA, that I think was phone fed around the country, that if you turned away from BM, 'there is nothing but hell for you.'

The Catholic Church had nothing on BM when it came to inspiring staying on the straight and narrow by threats of terrible calamities. I could never understand this, even then. This was supposed to be the path of love that he was espousing. How could you possibly walk on 'the path of love' out of fear.

It was like BM's paranoid, pathological need to be loved and worshiped was so great that he said you 'HAD' to love him, and if you didn't do it voluntarily, he would scare the shit out of you and demand that you do it. Problem is, love doesn't work that way. It's either freely given, or it isn't love. So, like Rick says, what he is offering can't be the real thing.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:53:50 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: BM's Threats
Message:
Joe:

I find all these late 70s shennanigans just fascinating. Especially since I asked him to set the hook and he refused. I couldn't even FIND any premies in the late seventies. I think I went to one program, but the vibe was different... more shrill or something. Don't really know why I never went back, except that I got caught up with R. Buckminster Fuller. A lot more colorful than Maharaji.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:21:01 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: BM's Threats
Message:
Scott,

The late 70s were the height of BM's megalomania. And most of the premies I knew either left, like you did, usually quietly, or they REALLY put on blinders and cut absolutely everything unrelated to BM out of their lives. Lots of people moved into the ashrams during this period. I got more and more involved with BM and his organization. I didn't have or want anything else. It also got VERY VERY heavy, I mean the satsang did. BM also wanted more and more stuff, so we were constantly fundraising to give it to him. Planes, residences, cars, etc. etc.

I will never forget sitting and listening to BM 'give satsang' in Miami to about 100 people, in about 1979, in which he did nothing but brag and talk about his new, red Ferrari. He talked extensively about the great features it had, and how well it handled when driven, etc. He was basically saying this to his slaves. A very arrogant talk.

And Maharaji did LOTS of very devotional programs during this period. Did you ever attend a Holi festival? Those got particularly bizarre. BM used huge fire hose equipment, to spray huge streams of colored water, and he could change the color by the push of a button. A couple of years the spraying took place in the Orange Bowl.

I think we had Holi festival four of five years in a row in Miami.
I guess the programs did get more 'shrill.' Certainly his satsang did. He screamed more and yelled a lot and got a lot more negative about the world, premies, etc. I think he was having a real identity crisis, because it was sinking in with him that propogation was NOT happening and people weren't getting involved like they were. And, of course, his appetite meant there were always money problems.

This is also about the time they started charging 60 or 70 dollars just to get INTO a program. He was raking in hundreds of thousands of dollars from programs, and I'm sure he still rakes in quite a lot.

Oy,vey. Wish I had gotten out when you did.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 20:11:16 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: BM's Threats
Message:
Joe:

A friend recently told me how lucky I was to get that 'nausea' letter from the residence. I can see that now. Someone must have had their thinking cap on backwards. Sorry you didn't get out.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 20:24:13 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: BM's Threats
Message:
It is surprising that I can still feel remorse and regret that I stayed in as long as I did. I think as long as the pressure was great, while the cult was especially heavy, like during 1977-1982,I reacted with re-doubled efforts and commitment. It was when, in late 1982 that things started to lighten up a little, that I was able to leave. But it still wasn't easy, that's for sure.

That's why I can have empathy for premies, particularly like x's mom. It isn't easy to question the meaning of your entire life. It's really hard and it's very frightening. And then there ARE the threats the BM has made over the years. And then there's losing all your supposed premie 'friends.' All that stuff just makes it easier to stay. For me, I had to get really miserable, to the point where I didn't think I could go on living, before I could leave it. It really had to get that bad. Maybe it was because I was in longer, but even getting an ignorant letter from DLM wouldn't have done much to make me question things. I had already seen a lot and effectively 'surrendered' it as 'lila.' You see, the ulcers were common knowledge, and I had heard about the drinking too. And I had even seen all the financial improprieties. It didn't faze me.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 23:57:00 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: BM's Threats
Message:
Joe:

When I left L.A. in 1976 he was still 'The Lord of the Universe,' but by the time I got that letter he was only 'keeping people from getting seasick' and was not trying to save mankind. Just too much cognitive dissonance for me to overcome. I mean, I still had this thought in the back of my mind that he was God, and when I meditated I was sure he had something to do with it. But, well, I just didn't care very much. I figured I'd wait until he saw fit to save the world and then I'd follow him again. In the meantime, who's afraid of Dramamine? I mean, God seemed to lose a lot of stature too.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:51:37 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: BM's Threats
Message:
When was it you got that letter?
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:23:37 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: BM's Threats
Message:
Joe:

I think it was 1981 or '82.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:29:48 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: BM's Threats
Message:
That makes sense. About 1982, I think, BM was starting to change his 'image.' That was about the time I was getting out. I doubt you would have gotten a letter like that before 1982.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:06:43 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: BM's Threats
Message:
What was the content of this 'letter?'
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:15:08 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: BM's Threats
Message:
I think Scott can explain better than I. But I think it had to do with whether BM is god or not, and the letter told Scott that BM was not god. I think, but Scott should confirm.
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 14:44:17 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: BM's Threats
Message:
Iola:

I asked him if he were the messiah, and if so why didn't he get cracking? I got this lame reply that he was not here to save the world, but merely to keep people from getting seasick and throwing up. I thought they had Dramamine for that.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 21:06:21 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Iola
Subject: You're no Judas
Message:
Iola; I'm sending you an email which may help clarify things. Briefly though, the Hindu trip is pure bullshit. It goes back a long, long way and is a pre-mediaval belief system based upon gods and goddesses and the division of people into high and low groups. It is not a religion based upon love or even based upon nature, which the Druid religion was together with Wicker.

A basic yardstick you can use is that if something uses threats or fear to try to make you follow a certain path, then that thing is false and dreamed up by some despicable and deranged mind that wants to control people or feel superior to them.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 21:13:24 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: You're no Judas
Message:
One of the things that helped me the most was the explanations of the roots of the M thing. That's why I just started that thread asking about the Penthouse article. Supposedly they delve into that a little. Once I started to see the Hindu mysticism revealed, and how M and his family were part it, I really let go. The posts and pages about the Rashaomi (SP?) connection helped tremendously. This is the best tool to help someone exit, it's called education. M has his work cut out for him now that the Internet is here. No wonder he makes fun of it. I remember the huge applause he got when he said 'Just because you have an information highway doesn't mean you know where to go on it'
Sad little Selena was so proud of that quote I actually used it as a signature for a while. I think I am going to throw up now. scuse me.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 22:10:03 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Iola
Subject: Silly me
Message:
I'm going to find it pretty hard to send you an email since I've just realised I don't have your address, Iola. I'll post something on the forum tomorrow.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 02:06:50 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Iola, JW
Subject: Silly me
Message:
I was in the Orange Bowl for one of those holis. I stood right under the platform Mr. Rawat was on and was one of the last people to leave the field. I was freezing. How embarassing the memory of it is.

I suggest that if you are really having trouble with the belief that you are in danger of some kind of transcendental retribution or karmic consequence that you follow the advice or challenge that Mr. Rawat often proferred in the 70's: look elsewhere. In what is only a very short course in reading in Zen Buddhism Mr. Rawat and his methods have been very effectively undermined. I mean I do not feel the paranoia anymore. I don't even feel a desire for revenge or feel a need to vehemently criticize. He has just become Mr. Rawat, another forked tongued good-ol-boy. I spent years railing and cursing at him as if it made any difference since he was just a typically greedy CEO with no power and no knowledge and nothing I wanted. What a waste of time and energy.
By the way, Zen Buddhism was where I was studying and working when I was sucked into the cult.
charles
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:23:13 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Silly me
Message:
I will let you know what my address is tomorrow. We are getting a new one. Thanks!
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:15:13 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: You're no Judas
Message:
The reason why I got to read all this stuff is because MJ told us not to. He said on May 8, 9, or 10 in Miami that there was no point in reading the garbage on the internet. K would only be spread one-to-one.

I ran into another guy there who hadn't been around since 81. He posted here too asking how to get in touch. EV told him how.

It was nice to see him again. I was told he died of AIDS.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 16:20:44 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: What is EV?
Message:
Is EV someone on this website? I thought it meant something else, but reading this last post am unclear.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 18:22:32 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: What is EV?
Message:
EV = ELAN VITAL (MJ DONATIONS ORGANIZATION)

This fellow posted to the forum because MJ had no site. EV is obviously monitoring these posts, because they contacted him to see if he was serious about coming back to the fold as it were. He said yes. Local premies got in touch with him and he went to the last three-day EVENT (program, festival) in Miami on May 8-10, 1998.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:56:51 (EST)
From: S.F.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Prakash: illegible bits here
Message:
I have an ancient photocopy of Hans Yog Prakash which seems to be based on the same edition you're using. (The pages begin and end at exactly the same point.) Mine must be in better condition because it's all legible.

Page 22 line 1. The missing text is, 'eminence' (without the quotation marks, of course).

Page 24 line 1. The missing text is, 'at any time, they cannot be completely destroyed either, but remain' (also without the quotation marks).

I'll keep an eye on further posts and supply any missing bits.

S.F.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 13:08:13 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: S.F.
Subject: HYP: some more?
Message:
Do you have the missing pages, between pages 17 and 18 (as posted) by any chance ? That would be great !

Thanks .....
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:48:09 (EST)
From: S.F.
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: HYP: some more?
Message:
Sorry, mine has exactly the same note as yours, '(Here two pages are missing from the original text.)'

There is one curious anomoly though. Whereas your page one starts with 'How can I describe the Perfect Master?' mine has a few sections prior to that. My edition starts with a section entitled, 'THE DEVOTEE OF HIS GURU'. (half a page) Then there is a section entitled, 'DEVOTION TO THE GURU' (2.25 pages). Next there is a section called, 'TO LIVE WITHOUT GURU' (3 pages). This is followed by a section called, 'A FOLLOWER OF HIS MIND' (1 page). Next, 'SERVANT OR SLAVE' (1.5 pages). Then, 'PRAYER' (0.33 Pages), followed by, 'SATSANG : THE COMPANY OF THE SAINTS' (1.5 pages).

Do you have these? If necessary I'll type them up for you. Just post a message here and I'll get in done over the next few days.

S.F.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:26:50 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: S.F.
Subject: HYP: some more: YES
Message:
I don't have that part you mention!

Your 'service' is welcome ...

thanks!
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:33:55 (EST)
From: S.F.
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: HYP: some more: YES
Message:
O.K. With any luck I should have it done by the start of next week. There's some very interesting stuff there!

S.F.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 03:36:03 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: S.F.
Subject: LOTS of interesting stuff!
Message:
Some people like me, who have been through the whole
'Indian trip' will find it very interesting.

I also think that on the psychological point of view, it's unvaluable stuff, because it enables you to understand
where the whole phenomenon comes from.

It is of course linked to a lot of 'indian' stuff, but without this it becomes impossible to understand where the BM got all
his strange philosophy.....which is of course the source of ours!

The people who discovered m & k recently might also find it unvaluable.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 09:52:33 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Happy Monday
Message:
I just love waking up and logging on.

Seymour,
Thank you for pointing out the error of my ways. I have been remiss at providing you new entertainment.

Anon,
I can always count on you to out-whine anyone who ever kissed Maharaji's ass/feet, now owns a web-browser, and believes that I am therefore their personal slave - and do so anonymously. All the while overlooking that you HAD access to the site once, and used it to remove the forum digest from the eyes of those who would benefit from reading your contribution. It will be a cold day in hell before you have that power again. Thanks anyway.

Selena,
What is it about estrogen that allows a human being to be tolerant, understanding, and wise enough to say 'just remove the page'? I did so, and the complaints about THAT particular problem will now shift to 'why we don't have a site news page'.

Bruce,
Is your name REALLY that hard to spell??

D@vid,
The link to your self-erected personal monument to webmastering is now online on the Site History page. Thank you for the hard-hitting content. The Nigerian Maharaj Ji page is a welcome sight to those stumbling in and struggling with the realization that they have been in a cult. The fake interview with the Indian Maharaj Ji helps to nicely undercut the credibility of the Mishler Interview. Nice job!

I spent 6 hours on the phone Saturday with a person who had sent me email late Friday night that frightened me about their emotional state. Things are fine now, but I realize that I should have better spent that time writing a Funny Papers Page for the amusement of those of you who have mastered web browsers, but just can't handle emailing complaints, suggestions, or (GASP) actual content that you feel the site to be sorely lacking.

I spent the rest of the weekend playing Solitare and fighting a personal depression. I have no idea what I want to be if I grow up.

I have to go to work now. You all have a nice day.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 10:42:04 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Calling RT
Message:
Good job of expressing your anger, Brian (we've had a big thread on that in case you haven't been following it). Very pointed. I hope it helps to get people off your back. I think you're doing a great job.

My father used to tell a story about criticism from the peanut gallery. Some cowboys came up with a system to deal with criticism of the cooking--whoever criticized the cooking became the new cook. So one day the cook is tired and wants to be replaced, so he dumps a whole pound of salt into the stew. The first cowboy to taste it puckers up and says 'Damn! That's mighty salty...but that's the way I like it!' Not that I'm suggesting that we use that system here.

RT, where are you? How about RT sings Dylan, The Subterranean Webmaster Blues?
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:06:59 (EST)
From: Gunther's mom
Email: None
To: x
Subject: thinking more about your post.
Message:
Dear x,
I hope you saw my message in the string I started by saying 'hi'. Funny how they wander.
1975 was also the year I 'recieved knowledge'. I cannot say like you I was coerced. I went to 'satsang' with my stepfather who was a pretty weird character himself. He I believe recieved Knowledge. But he was never the conformist type and DLM did not suit that. SO he parted ways. But I was immediately hooked much to my mother's dismay. She and my stepfather were divorced but he dropped into our lives from time to time. How sweet huh?
I just keep trying to imagine what life must have been like for you, this little kid realizing he ( forgive me if you are a she) is surrounded by looneys. And then your parent's divorce and remarry premies and the lunacy doubles..... divorce is so hard on kids as it is. And as I myself am remarried; stepfamilies are also a struggle. I cannot fathom what you must have gone through as a child. Unless your parents were very unusual premies they likely did not think a lot about the impact all this change was having on you.
I would like to know if there was anyone in your life that you could go to for a little sanity...a Grandparent? A teacher?
I remember as I excricated myself from DLM being terrified. Utterly terrified. I was given to a lot of magical thinking and was afraid maybe I was wrong and maybe something really bad was going to happen to me. In effect I made something sort of bad happen. I got into a bad marraige, to a premie, as a result of a sort of confused spiral I went into after leaving what had been my world.
When I left my mom was there for me. I am not sure she recognized how much help I really needed to REALLY be free of it. But she was there. I am grateful for that.
I can't imagine what it would be like for you to NOT have a family to go to because they were indeed your family. Anyway, I would very much like to hear more if you have time. I will be looking for posts.
Gunther's mom
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:10:19 (EST)
From: Gunther's mom
Email: None
To: all
Subject: post above is unrelated (nt)
Message:
no text
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:58:08 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Gunther's mom
Subject: G's mom
Message:
G's Mom,

We did have a thread on here once where a father wrote in and said he was worried about his children because their mother (his ex) was now involved with a premie, going to programs, etc. A few people thought that it was not a danger to his kids, but from my experience, I thought it could be (depending on the personalities of the kids, of course). Were you programmed, indoctrinated by older people you loved and looked up to?

I also have been thinking a lot about x's post below today. I ditto all that you said here to him/her.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:32:08 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: me
Message:
Dear Vp,
I looked up to the premies at the time. My stepfather really wasn't someone I looked up to at all. I think my experience was very different from x's.
Thnks, G's mom
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:20:47 (EST)
From: RT
Email: soon
To: Peter, Iola, all
Subject: The Cards on way
Message:
Hi Peter, Iola, et al.

Thanks for the kudos. Iola, I enjoyed your report of the program contact responsibilities. I suggest you save your ‘Elan Vital money. The century ends in 17 months and there is sure to be something that you will need it for!

Peter, I will investigate the Dylan lyrics of your idea and see of it's pun-tential!

The reason for my mystery identity is the “EX” cards that Just Say Know - which will be at the printers this week as I promised. When they are printed (1000), you all can have some. I think 20 cards each should do it.

I want to attend a large event and leave the cards all over. This will be a compassionate act for premies who need or want to question the trip but are too programmed….

(Programmed from programs! From software to Know-ware.)

As I did Serve-us for 10 years I would be recognized as one of those who left. One premie warned that I would be a monmath - ?? – a term that means I think, am not a card carrying communalist.
(So just call me RT. I am on the east coast.)

(Oh, I have cards all right! 4 aces - and the Joker.)

So thank you all for the insights and understanding. This is a great place to heal and grow. I want to say that although I don’t say much, I say, I do rather enjoy all the threads of discussion.

Blessings to all the ex-premies for sneezing in the general direction of the Guru!

RT
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 15:53:43 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: The Cards on way
Message:
How would one go about distributing these things at events?
I would think that 'they' will be on the lookout, and throw them out.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:32:26 (EST)
From: RT
Email: no
To: Selena
Subject: The Cards -How to.
Message:
HI Selena
how to distribute:

1 /At programs/ 20 cards in the pocket are left wherever you imagine. 1 at a time. Serendibity Ability. Simple, non threatening! Easy technique. Multiply by 50 exer-cisers=1000.

2/ Staple to a nice postcard and mail to an acquaintance.

3/ Bulletin boards of local health food store and libraries.

4/ Local baragon antiques dealer.

thanks for asking, Selena... Cards available in 2 weeks.

RT
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 21:03:48 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: The Cards -How to.
Message:
Thanks for answering. I was picturing me leaving them on a table at one of those huge sales routines they have going these days, the big rooms with all the pictures and tapes, etc. And I was picturing them getting promptly thrown away. As well as me being promptly shown the door! Now I gotcha. Subtlety always wins in the end. gracias.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:36:11 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: The Cards on way
Message:
I am going to at least one more program. It would feel really good to leave these around. If you are interested, contact Brian. He knows who I am. I am used to shelling out (joke, joke, so I could chip in).
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:38:32 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Chicago Program
Message:
I understand the BM has changed the program schedule. Do you know if and when the Chicago program is supposed to happen? It was originally on, I think, July 23.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 22:30:10 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Chicago Program
Message:
The contact person just phoned about the new fax on events.

I believe it's the 24th. I will find out for sure and let you know tomorrow.
Denver - ???
Miami - July 4 for sure
Atlantic City - July 16 for sure
Chicago - July
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:46:04 (EST)
From: RT
Email: no
To: Iola, et al.
Subject: Cards Volunteer needed
Message:
OK Dokie Iola - My treat , save $$ for year 200 party.

to everybody--

I need to ask for a volunteer to do service- to humanity.
Cards will be placed in envelopes, 20 per,and ready to mail for a SASE -sent to YOU ?????. My job is demanding and, etc. etc. I would rather ask someone to accept the 1000 cards and have their address published here for mailings. One set of 20 per request so they don't get all scarfed up.

No mail from EV or V accepted..
(No permission without admission) :)

Any volunteers?
thanks

RT Duty (RT2D)
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:51:12 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: RT
Subject: I Volunteer
Message:
Hi RT,
I know many people's addresses here, so I'd be willing to do it. I won't put my address on the site, but people can e-mail me to get it. I can also send cards to Brian to forward to Iola - I think I know who everyone else is (of the people that are not absolutely anon, that is).

Let me know what you want to do about financial arrangements. I'm definitely willing to pay for stamps, but I am kind of broke after getting 7 copies of the LOTU video made and mailed.

Katie
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:55:39 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: P.S. to RT
Message:
BTW, I promise not to reveal your identity, should you be forced to divulge it in order to do this. If you need references as to my ability to keep things secret, you can check with VP and Selena.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 20:09:50 (EST)
From: RT
Email: soon
To: Katie
Subject: RT duty
Message:
Hi Katie

OK great. In the fullness of time I will send you a email address where you tell me your snail mail address. You will a box of 1000 cards, placed in small envelopes, 20 each. Then anyone sends you a self-realized stamped envelope to mail back to them. I don't want you to incurr any

Let's wait. I go to the printers tomorrow, artwork is ready.

Thank you for helping to clear future ex-premies of debt, release confusion and for kindly being confidential. Nice.

RT
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 22:06:53 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: RT
Subject: RT duty
Message:
Hi RT - I am assuming that YOU are offering to pay for the card printing - how nice, and how generous! Many thanks. Every little bit really helps 'the cause'!

By the way, I certainly don't mind spending money on stamps (my husband bought a whole sheet of the Wisconsin commemoratives w/out realizing they were 52 cent stamps!), so anyone who wants cards can e-mail me at the address above, and I will send you some as soon as RT sends them to me.

RT, thanks again!

Katie
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:32:19 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: RT and other lurkers
Subject: Katie is secretive
Message:
RT,
Katie gets a good reference from me. She and Brian know more ex-premies than Maharaji himself-snicker!! (OOPS-I believe that I know more ex-premies than Maharaji does. That doesn't take a lot of doing, considering he knows nothing about any of us-haha!)

Katie, off topic, I have one video review written. I will type and email soon and then plan to write the others this week and send tapes back to you first of next week, if that is soon enough. VP
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:28:23 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com
To: Peter
Subject: moose turd pie
Message:
whoever criticized the cooking became the new cook. So one day the cook is tired and wants to be replaced, so he dumps a whole pound of salt into the stew. The first cowboy to taste it puckers up and says 'Damn! That's mighty salty...but that's the way I like it!'

Peter, I heard this story another way: one time the cook makes up a moose turd pie, sure that someone would complain and he wouldn't have to cook anymore. Sure enough, one of the cowboys takes a bite and says, 'good god, that's moose turd pie!' but then remembers,and says, 'sure is good though.'

best wishes, david f.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 16:54:19 (EST)
From: Guess Who
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Happy Monday
Message:
Sorry I took up so much of your time. Thank you for everythng. I hope I didn't depress you.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 16:57:16 (EST)
From: Guess
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Happy Monday
Message:
Sorry I took up so much of your time. I hope it wasn't me who depressed you. Thanks for everything.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:10:29 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Guess
Subject: Happy Monday
Message:
Sorry I took up so much of your time. I hope it wasn't me who depressed you. Thanks for everything.

You didn't take up so much of my time, and in fact talking to you was the nicest part of my weekend.

The forum, and my involvement with the site, exists solely for the support of those who are going through withdrawals from premie-think. Helping people is my way of paying back those who held my hand while I was undergoing panic attacks while facing walking away from the Lord Of The Universe. It's scary, and those of us who have already gone through it and can forget the whole thing remain active here (and support the forum/site's existence) for the benefit of those who haven't gone through it yet. Maharaji took away the premie 'forum', just like he takes away everything else that premies enjoy that doesn't put another dollar in his pocket - active satsang, ashrams, speaking about their own experiences, etc. What a guy...
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:44:22 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Early Tuesday
Message:
Brian:

Maharaji took away the premie 'forum', just like he takes away everything else that premies enjoy that doesn't put another dollar in his pocket - active satsang, ashrams, speaking about their own experiences, etc. What a guy...

Talk about yer moose turd pie!

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 16:59:01 (EST)
From: GM
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Happy Monday
Message:
Thanks so much for your time on Saturday. I hope I am not the cause of your depression.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:45:51 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Brian
Subject: Brian, Anon, D@vid,Rick
Message:
Dear Brian,
I don't know exactly what these assholes are at you like this for! I mean I read your post so I know what, but why the FUCK do they get on your shit, have they been sending you pay checks and you haven't mentioned it. I hope your salary is a 6 digit figure as it would have to be to even begin to make it worth all the shit you take from these guys.
I'd like to make an admition(sp), I am supposed to be doing the archives, seperating the meaningfull stuff from the chaff and catagorize it. It has been slow going and none of you better bitch at me, god damn it! If Brian has something to say to me fine, he works HARD HERE!!! You, D@vid and Anon, DON'T!! What the hell is wrong with you guys. D@vid are you trying to start something. I never saw this site when you were in charge but YOU DECIDED TO LEAVE IT and Brian kept the site from folding. What an asshole you are, I'd seen you bitch at him before, get over it! Don't come here if you don't like it, either of you. God if Anon wasn't anonymous you two could email all your bitch and moans back and forth to your heats content.
Anon, I remember a thread of suggestions to Brian that you had a big part in and then when Katie or someone suggested that some of the posters lend a hand to add to the site you said you couldn't do it! Fuck you! Do you realize how mad I am to curse like this. It takes A LOT to get me this mad, Jim hasn't even been able to do it. I'd be very interested in knowing how you can stand yourselves knowing that you are giving Brian, who DONATES ALL HIS TIME, SHIT about ANYTHING!!!! GOD YOU ARE like blood suckers. That's it, without being able to look you both in the eyes and SCREAM at you there is no more I can do with the written word. You should be bending backwards thanking Brian for all he does, and has done.
Robyn

PS. Progress Rick, eh?
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:12:46 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Brian, Anon, D@vid,Rick
Message:
Damn. Go girl! You had me shaking in my boots that I was next in line for a beating, because my name was in the subject field. Dodged a bullet.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:27:00 (EST)
From: Rick,
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: You've created a monster
Message:
Just kidding, Robyn

JUST KIDDING ROBYN

jUsTkIDDiNG rOByN

gerry
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:30:09 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Rick,
Subject: You've created a monster
Message:
Dear Gerry,
You were just trying to get me to hollar at Rick, I know! You put Rick in the from field, I've done simmilar things. He is my teacher and I don't want a bad grade. :)
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:28:43 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Brian, Anon, D@vid,Rick
Message:
Robyn, I read your post and I laughed so hard, that I spilled an entire cup of coffee on myself. But it was worth it. I haven't laughed that hard in a long, long time.

I just have one suggestion, Robyn. If you really want to say something, just say it!!!! Don't beat around the bush and try to be diplomatic. OKAY??? :)

By the way, I guess you have overcome your hesitation for using swear and cus words. Good for you!

Like once I said to Katie, and my partner Gerry says all the time:

YOU GO GIRL!!!
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:33:05 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: JW
Subject: You go girl!!
Message:
Dear JW,
Now I have to tell a funny story. I was at job 1 before there was a job 2 and the evil one brought in some meat thing and we all had it for lunch. Jade, youngest daughter, the vegitarian, called while we were eating and I told her I was eating meat. She said, You go girl!!! I'd never heard her say it and it made me laugh out loud.
I am glad you got a kick out of my post but I meant it too.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:38:17 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: You go girl!!
Message:
Like I said before: YOU ARE HOT!
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:25:58 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Brian, Anon, D@vid,Rick
Message:
Robyn,
So if I send Brian a big fat cheque can I moan all I like??
If so, I volunteer to singlehandedly pay for this site for a year. How's that?

Reserve your anger for someone who deserves it more. I think I have contributed quite a bit towards this site but you obviously don't agree. Ah well. There's no pleasing some. You can scream all you like at me but I consider myself perfectly justified in criticising Brian and anyone else for that matter.
Bye Bye
(PS I think you can go back to being polite now, you've obviously mastered the anger thing very well),
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 20:07:30 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Brian, Anon, D@vid,Rick
Message:
PS I think you can go back to being polite now, you've obviously mastered the anger thing very well)

I agree. As I said below, if I were new and reading this type of thing I'd be terrified! Much more so than reading about some Tarot card thing or Astrology.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 01:22:42 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn and all
Subject: Robyn's cussin' mouth...
Message:
Hi Robyn -
Although I am not personally offended by your swearing, it appears that there are some people who are. I sympathize with this, cause I am sometimes offended by other things. However, I also believe that you should have the right to include some curse words in your posts (as long as you don't start sounding like my little brother the roofer. Every other word that comes out of his mouth begins with 'f'. Somehow, it lessens the impact.)

I propose the following:
Deena used to post things that were quite derogatory to BM (incluing curse words, etc), and one of the premies who used to post here complained about it, and said it was distasteful, and that she wasn't going to read ANY of Deena's posts any more. Deena is a nice person and wanted this premie to be able to read some of her more serious posts, thus she began labeling her posts 'Tasteful' or 'Distasteful' (I am not kidding. I am sure some of you remember this.) I suggest that you somehow label your cussin' posts so people can skip them if they find them offensive. Maybe 'PG-13', or ''profanity', or something else. You are creative and I am sure you can think of something.

I hope this is a suitable compromise, and not offensive to anyone.

Sincerely,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 08:17:25 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Katie
Subject: Katie, Anon, rated:pristine
Message:
Dear Katie, and Anon,
Katie, I don't plan on getting to deeply into cursing, sorry Rick :), I slept 3 hours on Sunday night and worked 12 hours on Monday. I heard that the site and therefore Brian's hard work was attacked again by people who have done this before. As I recall, Denna's posts that were offensive to this premie were about Denna's negative views of BM. I have a harder time, although I am working on it, defending myself than someone I care for who has been attacked or mistreated. It was that mother lion thing coming out in me. I think/hope I am known here for my honesty and although I have toyed playfully with this cursing thing this is the first time I really used it in anger. As I said it takes a lot to get me that angry.
Anon, No I don't think you have a right to bash this site, and therefore Brian's judgement in his support and work here. That is what email is for. I have no idea how much it would cost to run this site for a year but I know it would not constitute a heafty pay check for Brian and no I don't think you can pay for the site and in so doing 'buy' the rights to treat Brian like a mere employee. You can email Brian or anyone else you desire about your problems with the site, make suggestions and then let it go. Nothing in this life is perfect but I think we all know how valuable this site is for us and for those now and in the future who will discover it and be helped by its presence. Anon, I sympathised with you when Jim gave out your real name, big time. I have felt no anyomosity toward you but I really care about Brian, think he works to hard for this site if anything, he is my friend and I ABSOLUTELY don't think that he deserves to be berated for his efforts. I hope you don't let my anger at you over this cloud any honest and heartfelt communication we may have here. I'd love to know if you see my point at all.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:40:40 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Katie, Anon, rated:pristine
Message:
I hope you don't let my anger at you over this cloud any honest and heartfelt communication we may have here. I'd love to know if you see my point at all.

Yes, I get what you're driving at but I am not sure that you know the full history of my argument with Brian enough to get involved to the point of getting quite so upset. I know that money doesn't buy Brian, it could buy him time to get on with it though I suppose.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:58:18 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Anon
Subject: Katie, Anon, rated:pristine
Message:
Dear Anon,
I know Brian can take care of himself yet it is nice to know, sometimes that your friends are 'all there' for you no matter what. That is where my anger came from. Thank you for answering my post.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:30:19 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Katie, Anon, rated:pristine
Message:
Dear Anon,I know Brian can take care of himself yet it is nice to know, sometimes that your friends are 'all there' for you no matter what. That is where my anger came from. Thank you for answering my post.Robyn

Yes, I am sure Brian isn't really the sensitive flower he pretends. Hey, come to think of it where are all my friends when I need them?!
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:35:03 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Anon
Subject: Katie, Anon, rated:pristine
Message:
Anon,
Brian is not pretending that much I know. He is a quinuine person and I am trying to make amends with you. I am now the 'bad' person for my outburst but I will not continue to 'talk' with you if it means bashing Brian or anyone else for that matter. I have gained a lot from reading your journey and your posts but I don't like this aspect that is shown here.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:49:35 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Katie, Anon, rated:pristine
Message:
Only kidding..By the way I enjoyed your outburst. It was fun. I know you're not a 'bad person'.You're great! We all love each other underneat anyway..
Brian! I love you!
...and you Robyn..it's just that Brian and I are secretly married (see below) so I have to be especially nice to him right now.
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 02:50:07 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: cracking the whip - to Robyn
Message:
Robyn again I want to add something - not just to you but it's about the kind of thing I think you got involved with here. Its where someone, basically an observor not involved in a dispute gets hurt the most by joining in or getting sucked in - and they become the 'tail of the whip'.

does this make any sense at all?
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 23:01:50 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Katie
Subject: Robyn's cussin' mouth...
Message:
Aha, so this is how pristine brought a breath of fresh
manifestation to the forum. Personally, I like to insult
people with long words, so they have to look them up too.
Like troglodyte. I read Expiration Date and I like it OK.
It has appropriateness for the guru milieu.
Stephen
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 09:27:25 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: Books and Insults
Message:
Hi Stephen -
Glad you thought Expiration Date was OK. At least you didn't hate it! He (Tim Powers) has a lot of neat ideas - I really liked the idea of 'bar time' in that book. Bobby Manrodt told me that he has actually experienced that phenomenon. Also, I like how he describes the city of LA. 'Last Call', which you may or may not want to read after reading this one, takes place in LA, and Las Vegas, and he does a great job describing Las Vegas.

I am assuming you have read William Gibson and Neal Stephenson. They are the best cyper-punk writers, IMHO.

P.S. Worst insult I have gotten on the forum is 'sickeningly maternal and politically correct'. Also a lot of getting called 'fat bitch' (I'm not fat, but that ALWAYS hurts most women!), but this wasn't as bad - to me, anyway. My dad used to call us 'dumb broads' when we made mistakes. I still hate being called stupid.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 23:15:18 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: condescending pip
Message:
She'll be polite if she feels like it. Frequently she does. And no way does your message get any more 'polite points' than hers.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:13:11 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Peter and all
Subject: condescending pip
Message:
well excuse me. I guess I am wrong here. Robyn's excessive and unnecessary swearing in no way would intimidate a newcomer. And I am a pip. OK. So much for my take on reality.
Go ahead Robyn. It's not even all that funny but since you have so much support - go for it. I hope I am wrong in thinking it would intimidate a newcomer. Far be it for me to think I would know anything about this being so very old at six months what the hell would I know?
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:42:15 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: not you
Message:
Selena--

That message was addressed to and in reply to Anon.

I do disagree with you about whether Robyn was out of line, although I accept your point that it could intimidate newcomers. And I feel that you expressed your views fairly.

1) I don't think you're condescending
2) I don't think you're a pip
3) I like you
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 08:28:26 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Selena
Subject: Dear Selena
Message:
Dear Selena,
I think Peter was talking to Anon, not you. Your post here has me crying, really. I do not want to offend anyone. Please see my post rated:pristine. That is really how I feel without the anger. When I first found this place I was very offended by the cursing and anger I saw leveled at some premies here. I sincerly asked for help in understanding the guy mentality that definetly didn't see my point of view, that there was no need for such language. Rick and even Jim, maybe some others really helped me through that and lately I've played with curse words in my posts but that was all it was, it is not my way, really. I value you you so much Selena and I don't want to offend or hurt you, women=good, men=bad! Just kidding, Jim, during our 1st confrontation, was trying to make me feel better and he said a similar type of thing, see usually I can't stop myself from joking, I am not a person holding a lot of anger and what anger I have I am working on clearing by working through it.
Hope this post has you feeling a bit better dear,
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 08:19:24 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Peter
Subject: condescending pip
Message:
Dear Peter,
Thank you, dear. I love that you used the word pip. I always called my kids pips when they were into mischief when they were little. :)
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:11:09 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Happy Monday
Message:
Anon, I can always count on you to out-whine anyone who ever kissed Maharaji's ass/feet, now owns a web-browser, and believes that I am therefore their personal slave - and do so anonymously. All the while overlooking that you HAD access to the site once, and used it to remove the forum digest from the eyes of those who would benefit from reading your contribution. It will be a cold day in hell before you have that power again. Thanks anyway.

You are being a total old woman I'm afraid. Seeing as you have plenty of soppy admirers already who are always waiting in the wings to pat you on the back for your efforts , I won't bother to flatter you further. I will be brutally frank.

I didn't realise that you were so touchy. The yolk of WebMastership is obviously getting to you. It seems that you share with David Stirling that mysterious affliction which renders you blind to the fact that I, who have previously made valid contributions to this site, was merely offering constructive criticism and to help you out.
Rather than respond enthusiastiaclly to my ideas, all you can muster is inelegant rudeness and this 'oh, I'm so depressed and overworked' stuff. Lacking any really sensible retort you stoop to throwing in this other veiled threat of exposing my anonymity which bugs you so much. As you well know I did not wish to be associated with those digests and I removed them, and made another alteration, for good reason. Good reason which you (intentionally) fail to remember. Let me remind you seeing as you are evidently suffering from selective memory loss.

A) David Stirling was very cynical about my anonymity (like you) and presented my material ( my 'journey' in particular) in a way which I did not want. So I changed it myself having got nowhere with testy Mr Stirling. No harm done at all.
B)The digests needed revising and updating. The fact that they have never reappeared is not my fault. I sent them to JW, to someone else, and to you in their entirety to do with as you wished.

I don't know what you hope to achieve by getting all sarcastic and abusive about my anonymity etc. You clearly don't know or care why I, like many others, wish to keep it that way. To me that is plain meanness. The result of your petulant and frankly over vengeful retorts to my criticisms (complaints if you must) is that you sound cantankerous and yourself untrustworthy. (Also of course, mind-numbingly humourless, unless one is supposed to imagine your latest crop of dry and sarcastic responses to be a distant form of wit.)

As for:

It will be a cold day in hell before you have that power again.

Well, now you're starting to sound like a Guru yourself! Very melodramatic. You and David Stirling TOTALLY blew that 'Youhaveabusedyourtrustyouwretch' stuff out of proportion because you're both so sensitive about the website remaining in your control. OK fine, I agree that you should basically act as editor, but why be so paranoidly dismissive of those who basically could and would help. I really do think that this website should be opened up to more contributors. I know deep down that I was not the irresponsible threat to your site that you (and David) made out. I ate humble pie at the time but now I am not sorry about what I did. Especially as you still resort to using that incident as ammunition in your defense of my current'complaints'. How feeble.

Now, I am just trying to make some CONSTRUCTIVE criticisms and as such cannot be accused of being out of order. Anyone would think I was trying to ruin your precious work.
The original webmaster, Scott, very kindly gave me access to upload to the site (he obviously had some faith in me) and then when Stirling inherited the site from him, it suddenly became a different story and I was this irritating Anonymous idiot. He blew me out for making adjustments without telling him as you know. Scott wouldn't have done that in his day! I mean, for Christs sake, David's just posted the whole shebang again. For the benefit of mankind? or just to show off his handiwork or to have a go at you?? What do you think?? Don't bother, I know what you think.

Incidently you didn't reply to my email in which I offered to do the html for a poetry page and to assist in html'ing Katies work.
I won't bother to offer again.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:26:57 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Happy Monday
Message:
Well I have been trying to talk myself out of posting this but I do have to say that I think the way you have been treated today is really out of hand. I am sorry to see people who I have come to care about and admire acting so juvinile. I don't know the history between you and Brian but having just read your above post I had to comment on the way that a few people have acted today.
It's too bad the both of you couldn't have collaborated and made one incredible web site instead of fighting. It happens though.
At work I am one of the few really technical women and have had the unfortunate experience of having to work with some egocentric jerks who won't give me the time of day because they think their technical abilities make them superior somehow. I hope that isn't happening here. I dont know What is happening here but all I can say is, if this is the kind of stuff I had seen when I first came here I would never had dared post in between all the swearing and flaming. I think profanity has it's place and can add emphasis but not when it's overused and for the wrong reasons. OK. End of lecture. I'll go join a convent now.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:53:41 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: not so happy
Message:
Pre-occupation with the impact of certain words deemed 'swear' words is rather infantile. Time to grow up. I knew how to read between the lines when I was twelve. I find the banal and selfsatisfied purring of the politically correct far more offensive and frightening than any unmitigated stream of invective I have ever read or heard. You know, the knife in the back? 'Smilin Faces'
Charles
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 08:35:52 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: charles
Subject: in defence of Selena
Message:
Dear Charles,
I totally understand where Selena is coming from as I felt the same way when I first 'landed' here, as I've mentioned in another post in this thread. I think or thought that in general it is, cursing, a man thing but I am working on my issues with male right now so I was acting out, or I just 'rode the wave' of my anger at the moment instead of putting it in check. Just because I had interest in gaining an understanding doesn't mean Selena will or should either.
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:33:01 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Happy Monday
Message:
Anon,

As my aunt from West Virginia used to say, I don't have a dog in this fight, so I am hesitant to say anything. But I will mention this.

It wasn't what you suggested to Brian or criticized Brian for that was the problem, in my opinion. It was the way you said it. Anon, you write very well, and I think you have made a lot of valuable contributions to the forum, but your post, above (the first one, not the most recent one) comes accross very, shall we say, sanctimonious and holier-than-thou, and also appears to come completely out of the blue, and for no apparent reason. It would be very hard for even the most egoless of people to read it and not feel attacked. If I put myself in Brian's postion, that's the way I would feel, and I would either ignore you and react the same way Brian did.

I think if you re-read your post, and try to be objective and empathetic, I think you will see what I mean.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:50:30 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Happy Monday
Message:
Well, at least no one feels constrained by an over-zealous mutual respect. There's always a silver lining. :}

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 20:55:37 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: To JW
Message:
You're right. I was pissed off that Brian often only considers his own priorities for the evolution of the site and not those of others. An example being that he once was very loath to action my wishes to edit info that I had supplied and felt needed to be redone. That is merely an example. A lot of people have suggested great things which would be easy to do but do they happen? No.
I can't help sounding sanctimonious on these occasions I'm afraid. It is because I find it frustrating .
What a great idea...A poetry page! Easy to do. I could put one together in an hour and so could Brian. But no... dissappears into the bowels of the forum. I'm not going to say any more on this...I hope.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:12:55 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: To JW
Message:
Anon,

I'm sure that a lot of great things can and should be done to the website. I, being the computer neophyte I am, don't know how much time or energy it takes to do them. I do know that Brian has often been very busy with the site and I don't believe he is intentionally ignoring your suggestions. BUT, you said:

I can't help sounding sanctimonious on these occasions I'm afraid. It is because I find it frustrating .

Sure you can. Or maybe you can learn to not sound that way. Maybe I have worked around lawyers too much in negotiating kinds of situations, but that old saying that you get more bears by using honey than traps is probably true. Maybe this is too pragmatic for you, but if you publicly deride anyone in a sanctimonious fashion and then SUGGEST that they do something YOU want them to do, how likely is it that they are going to do it? People are seldom humiliated into doing what you want them to do.

People like to feel you respect them. People like to be complimented or at least not talked down to. Maybe you have every RIGHT to talk that way, and feel justified for doing so, but that dosen't do much for advancing what you want to have done I'm sure you don't talk to your wife that way, do you?

You know anon, I'll bet you were one HEAVY ashram premie!
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:25:03 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: To JW from Condescending Pip
Message:
Alright JW..Yes, I can help sounding sanctimonious.

If I am guilty of talking down to Brian in public, then he is also guilty too IMHO.

I'm sure you don't talk to your wife that way, do you?

No. If I am married to Brian it must have escaped my attention, thanks for reminding me. I'd better send him some flowers quick.

You know anon, I'll bet you were one HEAVY ashram premie!

I know at least one person who would agree with you there! Probably several in fact.

Incidently this whole thread has reminded me how Americans are chronically incapable of understanding the innocent delight that British subjects derive out from behaving pompously.(perhaps 'badly' is a more appropriate word) The fact that you are all so shocked at my behaviour (that you totally miss my point as well) is quite telling.

But you have many wonderful attributes as a nation of which we British are justly envious. You are all very open and warm and sincere and cuddly and extremely good at crying too. Oh , and being cross of course. Quite a lesson for us haughty, emotionless pips from across the water.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:59:59 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: To JW from Condescending Pip
Message:
I don't think you are altogether wrong, Anon, in fact I don't really know the details so I can't judge. And I wasn't shocked by your behavior. I was just explaining why I think you might have gotten a reaction from Brian that was less than satisfying for you because of the WAY you expressed your opinion. That's all.

Maybe it is partly cultural, but I have found that the British are some of the most self-deprecating people around. But, I went to school in Britain for a year and I did find that my innocent midwestern middle class gullibility did get quite trounced by some of the upper-class pips that were my classmates. I guess that's why I was always on the train from Devon up to London so I could hang out with the hippies. I felt more comfortable there. But I think that was a class-thing, not a cultural one. Must say, though, that I decided I couldn't ever live in Britain because the tacit acceptance of the class system, and politics in general, that I found there would drive me up the wall. I do love the place, nonetheless.

But there are plenty of Americans who are pompous, if you ask me. Loud, too. When I see American tourists overseas, I am sometimes quite embarrassed, although the German tourists I see in San Francisco at least as bad IMHO.

Speaking of the things Americans have over the British, keep in mind that it is widely believed we have better teeth, and we also seem to be alone in the world in not being fascinated by that oh-so-low-scoring game in which men bounce balls off their heads and the fans try to kill each other in the car park. I don't know if that is an atribute or not. I did hear on the radio this morning that Britain will suffer economically, a decline in industrial production, over the next month because so many workers will miss work to watch football. Of course, even the mighty Dow Jones droppied 200 points yesterday, so I guess no one is immune from the Asian economic meltdown.

You know, anon, I think in the realm of 'it takes one to know one,' I was probably a heavy ashram premie too. I was actually housefather in a couple of different ashrams. I tried to be a benevolent dictator, but I did think that the rules were to be followed. I recall counting the number of premies at arti at 5:00 am each morning, and specifically noted anyone who wasn't there, and they might get 'talked to.'

My comment about your wife didn't have anything to do with Brian. I was just suggesting that if your relationship is anything like mine, there are multitudes of compromises and negotiations that have to be made and it gets pretty hard to do that if I present my side with righteous indignation. I would be rightly corrected for that very quickly. But sending Brian flowers might not be a bad idea.

Thanks for your post, anon.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 20:07:25 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: To JW from Condescending Pip
Message:
Hi JW,
I am going to make this short as I really want to get to bed for 3.00 AM for a change! I am supposed to take my daughter swimming in the morning and I want to be vaguely awake to enjoy it.
Talking of Americans teeth. I remember finding a website entirely about, and dedicated to, 'Gap-toothed people of the world'. Guess who's on there as a celeb. Maharaji!
Actually your mentioning that made me laugh. I thought you were going to say something horribly serious and then you said Americans have better teeth! Ha Ha ! But it's true. I sort of did the opposite of you as a teenager and moved to Hollywood. I noticed that Americans were definately ahead on their dental care and the size of their fridges (and hands peculiarly enough) Also (as I think we discussed before) their food situation was way ahead of ours. You enjoyed Burritos and Guacamole which were exotic tastes unknown to the dreadfully bereft palates of the Brits, whose idea of an exotic meal was limited, at that time, to grinding through endless Indian or Chinese takeaways.

'Becoming a Footballer' has now overtaken 'becoming a Rock Star' in the aspirations of British kids. That is impossibly awful. I am not wild about football myself I confess. I feel in a minority.

I do wish you'd stop trying to explain the niceties of Tact to me. I am actually a bit of an expert in that field you know. It may have escaped your attention that I was venturing into areas of tactlessness quite deliberately and with some curiosity.

I am sure we are both guilty of War Crimes in the ashram along with most of the others who were co-ordinators etc. The person I regret proseltising most to, is my poor brother who unfortunately has never recovered. He is 44 and still unusual.

Be seein' ya Jay Dub!
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:53:02 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Anon
Subject: Happy Monday
Message:
I haven't asked people to post 'constructive criticism' of the site to the forum. I don't want it here. That is not what the forum is for. That is what email is for.

You responded to Katie's telling you to email me by saying you would 'try that' - like it was a new idea. You've 'tried that' before, and I've always responded to you. When you haven't gotten the results you wanted that way, you've gone public here with 'suggestions'. I resent that. I've pointed that out and blasted people who want to 'force' me into doing for free what they are unwilling to do for free. How many times did you publicly suggest that maybe I should fix the dead guru's name here after I told you via email that I considered it a very low priority at the time??

You've responded at those times that I got mad by apologizing and offering words of flattery that the site is being maintained at no cost to you - either financially or by involving yourself with having been in a cult once. Then you forget, and post more 'constructive criticism' that the good sites are updated daily. Are you really STUPID enough to think that this is not a jab at me????? And a very public one??

I don't have a problem with you maintaining anonymity here, and there was no veiled threat. I was angry enough this morning that I would have used your name here if I ever was going to. I didn't, and I won't, because that's not what the forum is for either.

But I do get angry that you webmaster a site that serves to promote your income, your self-image, your career, and you in general, while offering public contributions here consisting of criticizing me for not doing enough of whatever you think needs doing for this site to serve your purposes and your vision.

This site and forum were here when you needed to work through whatever you needed to work through. Now they serve the needs of those who have just found them, not those who want to re-decorate regularly because they are bored with appearances.

That I took time off from work to get a fairly reliable forum in place so that those who benefit from posting and reading the posts of others will find them when they look for them, that I didn't make a goddamn dime on those days, that I am still working my way out of that debt, that my 'career' hasn't been enhanced at all in the process, and that you have nothing more to use it for than to whine publicly that I'm not meeting your expectations as a webmaster - - THAT I take great offense at.

If you can share what you know with those who come in here battered by what they have to go through, do so. You were a great help to me when I found this site. Now you've become a very squeeky wheel to me. Be supportive of the new people if you can't be supportive of anyone else.

They are what the site and forum exist for.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 20:39:56 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Happy Monday
Message:
Well I don't want to continue this argument too far in public, and it would be kind of boring in private, so I guess I'll just wind it all up by saying a few things.
If saying what I have amounts to 'a public jab' then so be it. That's fine by me. You guys are SO sensitive. I hardly think my remarks deserve quite the emotional reaction they have obviously sparked!

Facts are:
Nothing personal.
Website does need a facelift.
I have offered to help.
I don't have any expectations of you as a Webmaster.
You are the guy who's in charge and can make things happen.
You weren't in a hurry to alter the things I have suggested (like the dead guy's name) .
I originally supplied David Stirling with that information which he published. You inherited that info. and I felt it as a matter of priority to correct the error. I had a personal conscience about that. You didn't consider it a priority. Great. We're really happening.

I hoped to stimulate some attention onto what I see as as area of lack. Obviously this works better in public rather than in private. I am interested to see if I am the only one who thinks that there could be some new fun stuff posted. I'm not.

I fail to see what my website has to do with this issue. That's my affair. This site has evolved as a manifestation of the work of many people, myself included. Credit is also originally to Scott who defined the format of the site, David (yes).. David Stirling who took it over and all the other people who submitted information. It is not a Personal Homepage. It is inescapably a group effort and you're the team leader right now.

I put a lot of time into this site behind the scenes before you even came along so I feel entitled to a little whine. I would like to see the digests that I originally conceived and supplied, (as you so thoughtfully pointed out) re-done. I would have done it myself if I had had time and if I hadn't found it such an uphill struggle dealing with the powers that be on this site. It's not very encouraging.
It's definately time to stop arguing and co-operate though.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 01:39:14 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Happy Monday
Message:
The foregoing I agree with in its entirety and especially the part about carrying on administrative sessions - 'constructive criticism' - somewhere else than on the Forum. It is the quintessence of being beside the point and it is sleazy politics.

I would also like to add that your point that the Forum is for those who need it to help them work through the difficult act of separating from the hocus pocus of Mr. Rawat and his terribly faulty system. I was having a hard time with that and this Forum and the Mishler interview, and the journeys helped me immensely. But it was here on the Forum, updated or not, that the shit (oh, sorry) hit the fan and I made a stand and it hasn't been the same since. Thank you Brian. I don't think it needs more bell and whistles.

I, for one am not much help. I had a difficult time even getting here and my computing ability is not improving rapidly at this time, though I do have plans to get hip.

charles
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 03:27:05 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Brian, Anon, all
Subject: Happy Monday
Message:
Dear Brian
I just want to say I agree with you - as a new user/needer/enjoyer of the Forum I don't care about decorating either. I never go back there unless you mention a new journey, for example.

I have a favourites selected to take me right to the Forum, and that's it. Once I read the info and printed it out, and read it, and still go back and look at it occasionally, that was sufficient.

Sure if more links turn up that are useful or whatever, great . But colours and stuff, who cares? As if the packaging matters anyway. I find it comforting and rather low-key.

This is not a drop in - see what's changed-kind of thing - I would have thought myself personally and in my own opinion.

Thank you for all the work you do - I am very grateful to whoever contributes to this group in whatever way so we can all stay together as long as we as individuals need to/want to/choose to and get benefit from it. Hey, we're not hurting anybody - or shouldnt be, anyway.

I think it's a bit dumb for someone to set up a 'rival' site - very undermining. I can't guess the reasons. And when Anon you post here I always appreciate your posts! So please don't lose it because of shoulds and politics- keep contributing yourself.

PS turning it all onto Brian - you are forgetting about the rest of us. We are the group, all of us including you IMO.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:50:06 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Happy Monday
Message:
Judex:

Well, OK. But I think it would be very interesting to have a page on the 'Devotional Songs of the Charles Manson Family' juxtaposed against 'Devotional Songs of the Rawat Family.' I'd especially like to see Bhole Ji's contributions along with Maharaji's daughters (whose names I always forget). How about a global map of the residences, along with floor and seating capacity, pools, tennis courts, bunkers, etc? I wonder what skills Rawat possesses that would enable him to make a living if the Guru thing goes belly up (God forbid!). Has he taken any correspondence courses from Radio Shack? Maybe he could become a chauffeur? We could post a resume for him...

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 03:03:23 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Souvenirs
Message:
If you really wanted to take a pot shot you could post some of M's poetry. Yes, he did write some and it was published on cassette. The little I heard of it, when I was still 'in limbo' it was dreadfully woeful. He is not a poet. He also did a painting of a rather scary flower floating in limbo land. Someone gave me a poster of it and I had to take it down because it did not seem to have 'good' vibes.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 07:37:04 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: To Keith - Apology from Judex
Message:
Keith I can't live with it any longer. I have to apologize to you for the way I spoke to you the other day.

It is important for me to feel safe on this Forum, and therefore I know it is important for you, too.

I cannot post thinking that maybe some taunting maniac will leap on me and tear me to shreds, the way I spoke to you.

Of course you know a lot. Underneath, I think similarly to you in some ways (I realised today) - but I just don't talk that way. Or maybe it is 'another part' of me. But in the bookshop today I read a book of Birthdays - mine is March 27 - and it had the most wonderful, self-indulgent, disgustingly flattering stuff to say - all about how sexy and brave and stuff I am (I should have bought that damned book!) And there I am lapping it up - and then I thought of you!

I am ashamed. There was no need to take shots at you. I could have done it differently. I respect you. I could take refuge in an old astrology thingy someone told me - that I always hurt the ones I love - me or thee - but I have outgrown all that childish crap (this week!) So that means I am responsible.

I apologize and hope the soccer is good.

I hope you come back and post some more when you feel like it.

Remorseful but not totally crushed & hope you're not either
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 21:40:58 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: To Keith - Apology from Judex
Message:
Thankyou Judex,
I believe we are all here (on this planet) to learn and grow. And having an opportunity to share in such intimate ways , as this forum provides, can speed things along.

But learning involves risks too.
And perhaps the risk of saying or doing something that in retrospect creates remorse ....and having the courage to admit that one has erred , is I feel a mark of maturity.

I still intend to post here but the soccer, which by the way, I'm enjoying, (thanks for asking) is a pre-occupation right now.

I can't think of anything else to say , so take care .
Warm regards, Keith.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 03:34:42 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: To Keith - Apology from Judex
Message:
Thank you Keith, very much. I read today, whether you're right or wrong, don't avoid stuff. I need to look at this abusive anger of mine. It's based on fear I think but I'm not sure.

Today I spoke up to the boss of my second job, who in my understanding (some of it new) has been treating me abusively. For once, I held my ground, I said my say, I did not abuse her but I did not back off and I ended by wishing her well, and meaning it.

This is a big victory for me - it's a first. And I didn't feel guilty afterwards. Right or wrong, better to not avoid. I like it.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 01:05:44 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: About leaving carrots
Message:
Scott wrote:
Jean-Michel:
I agree that in the last analysis we have more resources that BM. At least, some of us do. Still, it might not be a good idea to get too complacent. There is a lot of money and power on the line, not to mention reputations, etc. A friend of mine was at one time the youngest auditor in Scientology (12) and a personal acquaintance of L. Ron. When he left and denounced the organization in his early twenties they hated him, and apparently had plans to do him harm. He's now a millionaire and unruffled by their threats. But people keep their financial and power interests very close to their heart. With BM, and probably with a good many of his inner circle, an end to the party is truly terrifying. It isn't like he has a day job or anything. From a policy perspective in might be simpler to give him, or his inner circle, a face-saving way out at some point. I mean, they convinced Marion Berry to take some sort of bogus university consortium academic appointment to keep him from running for another term. At least DC can now get a decently competent mayor.


Dear Scott,

Your comments made me think a lot.
1/ There are not that many premies of the ‘inner circle’ drawing personal benefits from the various businesses. Very few of them.
2/ Those who are, are good managers. They are not idiots. As they have been involved a lot, and for a long period of time, they’ve seen and understood a lot of m and what’s going on around him. They know the potential risks very well, and they’ve been ready for the ‘end’ for very long I guess. A lot of crazy things have always been going on around the Lord, their business is authorized by is Agya, and Mr Rawat has always been ‘unpredictable’: their businesses have always been endangered, already had a lot of ups and downs, and their situation has always been insecure (as a part of m’s game with them), and the threat that some exes might represent is only part of the game. Plus: these guys are ‘good guys’, otherwise they wouldn’t be so naive and couldn’t be in that position.
3/ Exes are not the only threat for m and his ‘inner circle’. IRS, gov and laws are a big concern for them.
4/ The lack of success of propagation is also a major concern. All we are talking about is a big part of premies chats. ‘Doubt’ is a very widespread feeling in premies, and the BM’s only defense against it is giving darshan, including his picture in the 3rd technique, etc.
And this is no answer as far as I know. Less and less people ready to devote their life to the Satguru these days.
5/ Satpal is a big threat for him, for all the reasons you can imagine. India is a country where a lot of weird things can happen, and Prempal is not very much into politics….
6/ The BM is very likely pissed that exes open their mouth, that some people listen to them, and that there is nothing to do about it. It’s always been like that in the past, even in his childhood, and he has always been at war with everybody else. That’s part of the reason why he had to keep such a low profile.
7/ I won’t mention finances: plenty of premies were (or would be) ready to support the Savior of Mankind. He didn’t save himself and his family, or anybody else so far.

Cancellation of a lot of recent events is the proof of his failure. It’s unprecedented in DLM/EV.

My feeling is that he is stalemate, and it’s only a question of time until he resigns, or takes an even lower profile, like stopping all activities and staying on one of his lands where die-hard will be authorized to visit him once in a while. That would be the best option for him.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 01:22:30 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: About leaving carrots
Message:
Jean-Michel:

I guess I agree. If he has an 'out' we don't have to manufacture one for him. And if I were really that worried about retaliation I wouldn't be giving out my real name. I'm hoping he might have a change of heart, and actually become a decent person. Doubt it though. Or anyway, that's not up to us.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 03:28:21 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: About leaving carrots
Message:
And if I were really that worried about retaliation I wouldn't be giving out my real name.

I'm not sure that not giving your name would be a good defense/protection system.

I think the contrary proved it's efficency: publicising your name, and saying openly what you know is a very good protection.

If anything would happen to any exe in that type of situation would draw more attention to EV and the BM ....
He doesn't need this I guess.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 08:47:36 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: About leaving carrots
Message:
Jean-Michel:

Hmmm. Hope you're right.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 21:55:57 (EST)
From: Just
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Testing the New Thread Block
Message:
Wondering if this works now.

Censored Premie
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 22:18:52 (EST)
From: Censored premie
Email: None
To: Committee
Subject: Testing the New Thread Block
Message:
So NOW it works.!

Funny that, I was beginning to think that perhaps this was a way of hamstringing premies who might threaten the anti M. propaganda here.

For some time now I have not been able to post any new thread here.

Does the committee know anything about this or is Brian aiding and abetting Jim's tactics in secret?

CP
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 22:38:16 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Censored premie
Subject: Talk about paranoia
Message:
And you guys think WE are paranoid...
Seriously, though, what ARE you talking about?
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 23:07:20 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Talk about paranoia
Message:
Dear CP -
The forum is NOT censored (think about it for a minute, please - how would this be possible?). If you're having problems starting a new thread, please e-mail the webmaster, Brian at brian@ex-premie.org. It will help if you can describe the exact problem you are having, plus the equipment you are using.

Katie
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 03:14:56 (EST)
From: CP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: isn't paranoid
Message:
Katie,

C'mon, are you that naive?

You seem a bit like the tea lady with the IRA. 'such nice boys. Wouldn't harm a fly'

Of course its possible to censor the forum. Why wouln't it be?

In recent times, 3 people have been blocked or restricted from posting more than once or twice. Posts have been deleted.

And its always those of premies

It wouldn't be hard to limit the ability to post new threads either.

Jim and Brian are not in the 'committee'. Not long ago. the committee discussed the very personal and private letter written by M's wife Marolyn to a 'friend'. Commendably, there was reticence to run with it.

Jim posted the letter and his bitter and sarcastic post was immediately followed by one from Brian, coached in equally hostile and mocking tones. In this case, Brian was in collusion with Jim, against the wishes of the committee.

At least one person, Still Crazy. saw the light and got out of this
little hate bin.

Perhaps you should think about it.

Warm regards,
CP
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 05:05:14 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: CP
Subject: CP is paranoid
Message:
In recent times, 3 people have been blocked or restricted from posting more than once or twice.
Posts have been deleted. And its always those of premies
It wouldn't be hard to limit the ability to post new threads either.


So what?? The premie site was deleted altogether! That's a much worse crime against freedom of speeech!!

At least one person, Still Crazy. saw the light and got out of this little hate bin.

It seems to escaped your notice that those who participate in the 'hate bin' do so because they feel liberated by it. Also people come and go..so what??

I suppose it would be fair to say that some premies hate this website and its contents. Your reaction is plain evidence of that. So are you not sitting in your own little hate bin too?

Perhaps you should think about it.

You sound like one those premies who used to start and end their righteous Satsangs with 'So, we should...'

'So, we should all do Satsang, Service and Meditation'
'So, you should love Maharaji...'

'So, you should be an uptight bossy asshole like me!'
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 07:24:14 (EST)
From: CP
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Missed the point Anon
Message:
Anon,

I've developed some respect for you as usually your posts are well thought out and written. Also you don't engage so much in the the all too familiar abuse and put downs so commonly handed out to premies. You've slipped a few times though when Jim comes on the scene. Guess its catching.

You seem to be genuinely interested in discovering the truth. At least intellectually.

I'm interested in this too, and one reason I have posted here is that sometimes things are printed which I know are simply not true
and I feel an urge to address them. I 'm not saying that about everything of course.
While the points you've raised have some validity, you have not addressed my main point.
That is, this forum is not quite what it appears and claims to be, namely an uncensored forum, controlled by a committee where people can say anything and everything about M and K.

I'm suggesting that the committee does not have any real power and Jim, Brian and possibly others control the forum and what is placed on the website.

A few responses:
So what?? The premie site was deleted altogether! That's a much worse crime against freedom of speeech!!
While the great majority of premies are reasonable and sensible people, it only takes one or two fruitloops to stuff things up for everyone. All organisations have this problem. Its a pity.

I suppose it would be fair to say that some premies hate this website and its contents. Your reaction is plain evidence of that. So are you not sitting in your own little hate bin too?
No, I don't feel hate for this website. I do see some people feeling hate here and others encouraging them . I think this is a shame. Reminds me of the Emporer urging Luke Skywalker to feel the hate.
Hatred just eats you up inside, and is the absense of love. I'm interested in feeling love myself.

It seems to escaped your notice that those who participate in the 'hate bin' do so because they feel liberated by it. Also people come and go..so what??

Thats what happens with people's involvement with M.

You guys make such a big issue of this though. If just one person becomes freaked out by Jim or whoever, that's about 5% of the group. So what, right? Does Jim or anyone apologise for their mistakes, or for freaking that person out? Of course not. Too busy demanding apologies from M. Its total hypocrisy in my book. What happened to Stir Crazy? Did anyone enquire?

perhaps you should think about it.
Hey, Katie started this one. Why don't you jump at her?

BTW.Since you seem interested,don't you think its kind of funny that Shri Hans is the one not mentioned in the Sant Mat literature? I've seen him in a photo with Sarupanand. Now why did he get missed out I wonder? He was the true Satguru perhaps? Like the present day Satpal is doing with M, the writers somehow forgot about him?

Its all a game, Anon. The truth is invisible to the blind.

Regards,
CP
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 09:06:35 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: CP
Subject: You haven't got a point
Message:
CP:

While the great majority of premies are reasonable and sensible people, it only takes one or two fruitloops to stuff things up for everyone. All organisations have this problem. Its a pity.

I don't get this. One premie speaking his mind caused the site to get shut down? What? Who was it? How often does that sort of thing happen? Did you even HAVE a forum? COULD you have a forum? Would Keith be allowed to post his doubts there? The reason you haven't seen any premies posting here in awhile is that they're all at Wembley. You are funny.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:18:17 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: CP
Subject: Forum and committee again!
Message:
Dear CP - You obviously have not understood the purpose or function of the committee at all. You wrote to Anon:

While the points you've raised have some validity, you have not addressed my main point.That is, this forum is not quite what it appears and claims to be, namely an uncensored forum, controlled by a committee where people can say anything and everything about M and K.

I don't know where you got the idea that the forum was controlled by the committee. NO ONE has ever made THAT claim except you. The committee was convened BY Brian as an advisory committee so he didn't have to make all the decisions by himself. Brian decides what issues to place before the committee, and he decides whether to follow the committee's recommendations or not.

I'm suggesting that the committee does not have any real power and Jim, Brian and possibly others control the forum and what is placed on the website.

You're almost right here, and it's no big secret. I am surprised that you would think otherwise, and I'm not exactly sure where you got these ideas. Brian is the webmaster, and he controls what is placed on the website. He also runs the forum. He makes the ultimate decisions about blocking and limiting posts. As Brian once said - it's a benevolent dictatorship. The committee does NOT have any 'real' power, and has never claimed to be anything but an advisory committee. Jim is not involved with either the committee, or with webmastering, although many premies seem to feel compelled to think that he runs the whole show.

I hope this clears up a few misconceptions.
Katie

P.S. Regarding Still Crazy, my impression is that he/she quit posting on the forum because he/she disagreed with Jim's posting of Marolyn's letter. If you go back and read the archives, you'll see that he/she said that he was going to stop posting. I am not sure what you mean about 'did anyone inquire?'. I and a few others asked him/her not to leave the forum because we valued his/her posts. (By the way, Still, if you are reading this - I would love to see you back on the forum.)
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:54:02 (EST)
From: The truth is invisable
Email: None
To: CP
Subject: to CP(crack pot) Bruce
Message:
Feeling good does not mean we stand by while a fraud
(fruitloop)in your words, goes around misrepresenting himself
AND his delusional athiestic false gohead trip.

YOU can hardly be called a man since you are so easily
moved to lie in your post. You try to misrepresent the facts
and call falsely for honesty and reason.

That is the hallowed time tested approach of those that try to
get thier way by dishonest means.

Your attitude comes sailing through your words and you are not
in any enviable state of either MIND or so-called spirituality.
Perhaps you are not attaining the 'I Am God' status that
you have been trying for all these years?

Where you are at counts for a lot in life.
If you can't even be honest with your own self, well that
is not good.

You trigger the reactions you get here by your own arrogance and
distain. Should Jim LIE? He doesn't and won't. He tells
it true. So should you.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:53:23 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: CP
Subject: Missed the point Anon
Message:
I would like to reply at length but I am too busy defending my supposed attack on Brian above!
However.

Since you seem interested, don't you think its kind of funny that Shri Hans is the one not mentioned in the Sant Mat literature? I've seen him in a photo with Sarupanand. Now why did he get missed out I wonder? He was the true Satguru perhaps? Like the present day Satpal is doing with M, the writers somehow forgot about him?

Of course it is indeed highly probable that Shri Hans was omitted from the Sant Mat Literature on purpose. Why did he get missed out? Possibly because he threatened their new line of Satgurus as he was clearly claiming to be the One himself. Satpal ignores the presence of his brother and visa-versa. This succession dispute phenomena merely suggests that there is a lot of plaigarism and hypocrisy in that area. Sorting out which particular Guru is 'the real thing' is a personal judgement I guess.

Regarding Forum censorship. I basically think that if someone's a pest they should be told to shut the fuck up and if they don't, well , boot 'em out. Don't worry I'll probably be booted out soon too judging by current affairs. We can be exiles together!
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 02:31:51 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: who is what?
Message:
Are you actually suggesting or implying or maybe conceding that there is a 'real' guru in that sant mat thing?
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:51:45 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: charles
Subject: who is what?
Message:
Are you actually suggesting or implying or maybe conceding that there is a 'real' guru in that sant mat thing

No. Sorry I should have written:

Sorting out which particular Guru is 'the real thing' is a personal judgement I guess, for those who believe that there is such a thing.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 06:41:40 (EST)
From: CP
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Missed the point Anon
Message:
Anon,
thanks
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 10:59:58 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: CP
Subject: censorship - a clarification
Message:
Dear CP - I see that you are blocked now, so I'll try not to say anything inflammatory.

I did want to clarify what I said about forum censorship. I thought that you were a new person who was trying to post on the site who thought that Brian could somehow detect and stop thread starts by premies - no matter where or who they are. I believe this is why a few other people thought that you were paranoid, as well! A couple of people have thought that Brian somehow censors messages between the time they are posted and the time they appear on the forum. I can assure you that this is not so (Brian does not sit at home all day intercepting and reading incoming posts for one thing!) and this is what I was talking about when I said 'There is no censorship on the forum'.

Katie
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 23:12:51 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Talk about paranoia
Message:
I am paranoid. Today I phoned my credit card company to cancel the automatic credits to my card for EV. They took the money two days early this month--too late. I had to block my card for the next three months. I phoned (got a machine) to get the money back for this month (I hope I do!).

Before I started reading here last Tuesday, I suggested we all watch a very old video. Everyone was keen. We all watched it last night (all four of us). I commented that things had sured changed. They both said that things hadn't. THEY HAVE!

Today I get I call from our CONTACT PERSON that the video was inappropriate. She and this other person said we shouldn't be watching that anymore. This is MJs wishes.

I also asked her why videos now had to be introduced with a canned script (weren't people capable of using their own words). She replied 'This is what MJ wants.' I guess now that we have been told what to do for 20 some odd years, we are incapable of expressing any CLEAR thought on our own.

Everyone who lurks on this site from EV will probably know who I am. I really don't care.

The sparks are going to fly if I don't get my money back.

I AM FED UP WITH IT ALL.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 23:22:11 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Go, Iola!
Message:
Iola,
I was always thinking that everyone would know who I am, too. Now don't think that they will, but I think it's normal to think that for a while.

You may want to hang onto those old 'inappropriate' videos. Jim H. would love to get his hands on them, I'm sure. (snicker)

You may even want to consider cancelling your credit card and getting another one if you don't get satisfaction this month. That way EV will have NO access you your future funds.

A 'contact person'...no shit? Sounds sick to me. What are the duties and responsibilities of this person? (Raphael, I hope you are listening...) VP
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 14:48:46 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Talk about paranoia
Message:
Iola,

You said:

Today I get I call from our CONTACT PERSON that the video was inappropriate. She and this other person said we shouldn't be watching that anymore. This is MJs wishes.

First, how did the 'Contact Person' know that you watched an older video? Did he or she see you mention it on the forum? If so, that is very bizarre.

Second, is there any explanation whatsoever about why it's BM's wishes that that video shouldn't be viewed anymore and/or why it's inappropriate?

I have my own theories on this, which I think would be obvious to any premie or ex-premie. That is, that BM has been making a concerted effort of the past years to HIDE his very embarrassing past and, to some extent, eradicate it, a la Big Brother in the book 1984. You know, the whole idea that you can change the past, by wiping out all evidence of it, and just pretending that it never happened. Of course, if you have a thoroughly programmed group of followers who won't think that kind of deceptive behavior is to be questioned, that really helps.

I'm sure all that Krisha-outfit-dancing, and HEAVY devotion/surrender satsang, etc. is extremely embarrassing to BM these days. Unfortunately, there is all kinds of recorded evidence of him doing that 'I-am-god' stuff and it would be hard to hide it. Of course, if the CONTACT PERSON mindlessly follows orders and is complicit in BM's deception, that helps him immensely.

I would also, as VP suggests, CANCEL the credit card on which EV is taking contributions. I would also suggest to the Bank that you will hold the Bank legally responsible for this month's contribution, if it was taken earlier that it was suppposed to be taken. The bank should not have allowed that. That way, the bank can go after EV to get the money back. You can contact a local consumer group to help you on this if you have a problem.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 23:27:36 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Censored premie
Subject: P.S. To 'supposedly' censored
Message:
As a more serious response to your post, I have been gone for a week, but as far as I know only one person has ever been blocked from posting here, and that was not the same thing as being 'censored.' Are you Petrou? If not, you have nothing to worry about, as far as I know. VP
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 00:08:57 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Duties of Contact Person
Message:
Duties of Contact:

a) Receive faxes about new info.

b) Let everyone know about new info.

c) Put message on answering machine of upcoming video events.

d) Make new forms to register for programs, etc. available.

e) Have info cards available.

f) MJ had a four-day conference with them in February to discuss
what he wanted done in the communities.

Duties of Person putting on the Video:

a) Make sure it starts right on time. Big paranoia to be late (almost frantic).

b) Count the number of i) new people (np)
ii) aspirants (a)
iii) people with knowledge (pwk) (pricks
for getting others involved)

Records are kept about how many videos new people see, etc. This info gets sent to MJ all the time.

THESE PEOPLE ARE MY FRIENDS. I HAVE JUST NOTICED IN THE LAST WEEK HOW UPTIGHT THEY ARE. IT IS GETTING WORSE.

Last night, one of them was telling me that (s)he got right up first thing to practice, etc. How sad it was that they didn't get to go to Wembley. Meanwhile, everyone here is just about bankrupt. One person is.

I have decided not to tell anyone else about what I am reading here. They look too fragile right now (worse than me I think).

I am just going to fade out quietly.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 00:23:10 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Duties of Contact Person
Message:
Iola:

My god! It almost sounds like 'The Autumn of the Patriarch' by Gabriel Marcia Marquand. There is something universal about the downfall of autocrats. It's an old story.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 16:11:15 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Duties of Contact Person
Message:
Dear Iola,
I think it is very wise for you to just fade out quietly. And you know what? This actually makes a much stronger statement because it leaves them with a mystery. Makes them think. If instead you were to try to explain or debate, they would then be able to rationalize to themselves every word that you had said.
Good for you.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 07:39:27 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Iola
Subject: Duties of Contact Person
Message:
What a sad little group. Why, this doesn't even reach cult status. Remember the beginning? Expansive optimism about the Lord of the Universe manifesting with more power than ever before. Shining premies walking through rush hour trains handing out leaflets and giving satsang. We shouted it on the streets, 'He is here!' Full pranam at satsang in the evening to the Saviour of Mankind.

What's left now? A few middle-aged believers and video 'events'. A Lord who's thinking of retiring and impersonal contact through telephone answering machines. Hardly taking the world by storm.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 16:17:48 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Duties of Contact Person
Message:
Yes that is what our so-called 'community' is like also. Just a few middle aged die hards. And it is a fairly big city, where are all the interested aspirants? Maybe it's because these premies such at making and keeping friends. They are really pathetic too because as they cling so desperately to their false spirituality, they are also clinging desperately to their youth. The women are saddest to me. Only 1 of the 7 has a decent relationship. The others are so sad. I don't mean to judge this in and of itself. I am not a stranger to hair color or plastic surgery, and I spent 10 years single between marriages. Kind of liked it actually. It's just in combination with the lost devotee routine that is so pathetic. How can these people hope to have decent relationsips or friendships when they can't relate to anyone who isn't a devotee of BM?
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 03:43:41 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Duties of Contact Person
Message:
Selena my impressions here agree with what you said, very much.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:29:10 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Duties of Contact Person
Message:
Thanks for that info, Iola. I shudder to think that someone could call my home and tell me what to watch and not to watch (Actually, I would like to see them try-snicker!) I read below where someone said that EV is very open (red heels??) but censoring your viewing is not openness. That is CONTROL.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 13:16:21 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: 'Openess' of EV
Message:
You can do anything you want, as long as you stay
within the limits ....

And they keep defining those limits and politics in endless meetings ...

you see what I mean ?

Some 'organisers' and 'contacts' have the authority,
the rest obeys and stay within the limits.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 16:21:24 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: 'Openess' of EV
Message:
Even when I was supposedly involved I never would return a phone call from my contact person. And it always annoyed me to get those calls. It was one of the reasons I always let voice mail pick up the phone.
The rationalization I have heard the most frequently about the organization is that it isn't the real purpose of M and of being a premie. Supposedly the real purpose is 'the experience' I wonder how far they will take that justification?
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:36:37 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: 'Openess' of EV:very far!
Message:
I just spent 2 hours 1/2 with a premie on the phone over that particular issue.
They CANNOT even think of a fraction of a bit of some responsibility of the BM in the picture.
I recalled the guy how m is involved in managing the organisation, how he choses himself his assistants, etc.
The BM is beyond everything!
The premies are wierd, everyone agrees, but each premie individually will say he is sane, as well as some of his friends!
I personnaly like most of the premies, even though some are not friends.
Guess what's wrong, and who's wrong ?
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 20:51:54 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: 'Openess' of EV:very far!
Message:
Why you are the one wrong, of course. easy.
It's a great testimony to your communications skills that your phone call lasted 2.5 hours. Most premies I know would have told me to go to hell and that would have been that.

Maybe they think you are still redeemable.
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 03:55:17 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: 'Openess' of EV:very far!
Message:
It's a great testimony to your communications skills that your phone call lasted 2.5 hours. Most premies I know would have told me to go to hell and that would have been that.

If you say so .... we both had a lot of good laughs!
I think that particular premie is very aware of all the BS around M, like many do, he asked me to talk about some stories he didn't know, and he himself knows a lot I don't know.
But these people are in such a belief system, that whatever M does, or whatever may be done by people around him, chosen by him, it's fine, it's part of the game.
Propagation is no success, there is almost No aspirants, programs are cancelled, etc: fine .... what can you say, except laugh!

I assume it's difficult to face how ridiculous the whole thing is, and how dangerous it is to have your life intricated into this!
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 08:43:14 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Censored premie
Subject: Testing the New Thread Block
Message:
Funny that, I was beginning to think that perhaps this was a way of hamstringing premies who might threaten the anti M. propaganda here.
For some time now I have not been able to post any new thread here.


Other 'funnies':

You say that the 'block' pertained only to starting a new thread. Since the blocking software doesn't pay any attention to whether you are submitting a new thread or a reply, I would call that pretty bizarre.

Since you are using Bruce's computer, and there was no block in place, you shouldn't have had any problem.

Bruce has posts in the latest archive.

Bruce had apologized for infringing on the Webmaster's name when posting here. He said it was not meant to cause any grief.

Your post says that you were being blocked when in fact you weren't. This is a source of grief to me.

I have placed a block on your IP to help to clarify the difference to you between what is and is not truth.

Let me know via email when you have understood that difference. I will post it here, and remove the block.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 13:04:03 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Limiting theBlockhead
Message:
Good one Brian!
You are perfect as webmaster.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:01:58 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Testing the New Thread Block
Message:
Brian,
I know you do alot of hard work on this site and the Forum, and that you deserve to be able to do whatever you want with it. But I think you do yourself a disservice by letting this schmucko bait you into performing a power-trip.
Rick
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Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 03:59:09 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Testing the New Thread Block
Message:
I feel what you did is fair and open. Do you want to share about what's getting you down at the moment?
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