Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 12 | |
From: Jun 13, 1998 |
To: Jun 20, 1998 |
Page: 3 Of: 5 |
Iola -:- Need advice fast -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:45:17 (EST) __carol -:- Need advice fast -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:01:18 (EST) __VP -:- Who is the recipient ? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:02:19 (EST) __PaulR -:- Need advice fast -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:06:02 (EST) ____Iola -:- Need advice fast -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:10:47 (EST) ______JW -:- Need advice fast -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:20:43 (EST) ________Robyn -:- Need advice fast -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:27:48 (EST) ________G's mom -:- agree with JW -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:31:17 (EST) ______red heels -:- Need advice fast -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 16:24:49 (EST) ________Iola -:- BS -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 17:55:17 (EST) __bb -:- nice and easy .*<*... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 16:44:08 (EST) ____x -:- nice and easy .*<*... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 18:34:19 (EST) ____PaulR -:- nice and easy .*<*... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 20:40:18 (EST) ______carol -:- nice and easy .*<*... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 21:39:19 (EST) ______Iola -:- nice and easy .*<*... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 22:15:08 (EST) ________PaulR -:- nice and easy .*<*... -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 13:41:55 (EST) __________Robyn -:- nice and easy .*<*... -:- Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 09:58:11 (EST) ____carol -:- nice and easy .*<*... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 21:37:03 (EST) __Jean-Michel -:- relax and think -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 06:45:10 (EST) carol -:- Your previous post -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:25:54 (EST) __carol -:- oops!To Judex:Your post! -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:27:34 (EST) __Scott T. -:- To Judex -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:00:39 (EST) __Paul -:- Your previous post -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 16:06:55 (EST) ____Robyn -:- Your previous post -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 16:13:11 (EST) G's mom -:- Holi.... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:56:50 (EST) __Iola -:- Holi.... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:20:46 (EST) ____G's mom -:- yep.... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:27:52 (EST) ______Iola -:- yep.... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:19:54 (EST) ______John -:- yep.... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 16:30:22 (EST) ________Iola -:- yep.... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 18:02:35 (EST) __________x -:- yep.... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 19:27:42 (EST) ____________VP -:- x, you are wise -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 18:29:25 (EST) __________John -:- Hey Iola -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 14:58:02 (EST) ____________Iola -:- Hey John -:- Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 09:59:50 (EST) ______________John -:- Mind vs. heart BS -:- Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 11:02:44 (EST) ______________PaulR -:- Hey John -:- Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 21:20:32 (EST) Robyn -:- anger, me and the inactive -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:35:04 (EST) __PaulR -:- anger, me and the inactive -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:48:34 (EST) ____charles -:- anger, me and the inactive -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:59:36 (EST) __carol -:- anger, me and the inactive -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:46:27 (EST) ____Robyn -:- anger, me and the inactive -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:34:44 (EST) ______Stephen Harris -:- anger, me and the inactive -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 17:03:31 (EST) ________Robyn -:- anger, me and the inactive -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 18:06:46 (EST) __________Judex -:- to Robyn -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 00:19:20 (EST) ____________Robyn -:- to Robyn -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:02:55 (EST) ____________Robyn -:- Judex, about protection -:- Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 10:10:47 (EST) __Paul -:- CBT and anger -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 17:32:19 (EST) ____Robyn -:- CBT and anger -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 18:11:15 (EST) ____Judex -:- CBT and anger -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 00:27:01 (EST) __JW -:- anger, me and the inactive -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 18:19:49 (EST) ____Robyn -:- anger, me and the inactive -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 20:32:45 (EST) __Scott T. -:- Shame and Anger -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 00:06:06 (EST) ____Judex -:- Shame and Anger -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 00:38:52 (EST) ______Scott -:- Neurocharms -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 01:31:01 (EST) ______Robyn -:- Shame and Anger -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:15:40 (EST) ____Robyn -:- Shame and Anger -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:11:50 (EST) __Peter -:- anger, me and the inactive -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 00:18:56 (EST) ____Scott T. -:- anger, me and the inactive -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 01:58:08 (EST) ____Carol -:- anger, me and the inactive -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 02:50:24 (EST) ______Judex -:- anger, me and the inactive -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 03:14:01 (EST) ______Scott T. -:- anger, me and the inactive -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 10:07:41 (EST) ______JW -:- anger, me and the inactive -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 14:10:28 (EST) ________Robyn -:- unpredictable anger -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 15:53:14 (EST) ____Robyn -:- anger, me and the inactive -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 15:35:07 (EST) ______VP -:- What I think, Robyn -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 16:19:26 (EST) ________Robyn -:- What I think, Robyn -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 16:25:50 (EST) ______Peter -:- anger, me and the inactive -:- Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 00:20:02 (EST) Brian -:- Ex-Premie Network - a proposal -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:13:07 (EST) __G's mom -:- short note.... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:02:22 (EST) __Carol -:- Ex-Premie Network - a proposal -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:57:45 (EST) __Robyn -:- Ex-Premie Network - a proposal -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:41:41 (EST) __JW -:- 1.2 Million Messages!!!! -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 19:53:36 (EST) ____RT -:- 18 months to weave a web -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 20:20:34 (EST) __Anon -:- Ex-Premie Network - a proposal -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 20:28:33 (EST) __Judex -:- Ex-Premie Network - a proposal -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 01:01:04 (EST) Scott T. -:- From Sackcloth to Hemp -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:38:48 (EST) __RT -:- Budda Budda, Budda Buddha. -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:52:25 (EST) ____bb -:- fer RT -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 19:10:37 (EST) ______Iola -:- fer RT -:- Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 10:35:27 (EST) Judex -:- request for assistance -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 03:52:47 (EST) __Jean-Michel -:- Life goes on ..... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 04:31:05 (EST) ____Judex -:- Life goes on ..... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 05:43:04 (EST) ______John -:- two cents worth -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:35:34 (EST) ________Carol -:- two cents worth -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:05:37 (EST) __Sir David -:- request for assistance -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:35:42 (EST) ____Judex -:- suggestions -S.David, hrh -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 01:08:00 (EST) __Scott T. -:- request for assistance -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:06:47 (EST) ____RT -:- The Ultimate Meal -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:41:52 (EST) ____Judex -:- assistance request - Scott -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 01:15:11 (EST) ______Scott T. -:- assistance request - Scott -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 11:29:39 (EST) ________Robyn -:- assistance request - Scott -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 16:05:39 (EST) __Robyn -:- request for assistance -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:30:52 (EST) ____Stephen Harris -:- request for assistance -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 17:52:01 (EST) ______Robyn -:- request for assistance -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 18:14:48 (EST) ________Stephen Harris -:- request for assistance -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 20:56:07 (EST) __________Robyn -:- request for assistance -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 21:27:17 (EST) ____________Stephen Harris -:- request for assistance -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 22:37:32 (EST) ______________Judex -:- boundaries - Robyn -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 02:05:41 (EST) ________________Katie -:- exes -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 09:40:37 (EST) ________________Robyn -:- boundaries - Robyn -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 16:13:52 (EST) ________________VP -:- Judex, get baggy pajamas -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 23:05:33 (EST) __________________Katie -:- VP and his baggy pajamas -:- Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 01:19:45 (EST) ____________________VP -:- VP and his baggy pajamas -:- Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 01:37:32 (EST) ______________________VP -:- Katie the night owl -:- Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 01:50:33 (EST) ______________________Katie -:- Smokin' VP -:- Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 11:52:46 (EST) ______________Robyn -:- request for assistance -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 16:01:50 (EST) __________Peter -:- practicing too -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 23:20:14 (EST) __________Judex -:- boundaries - Stephen -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 01:55:05 (EST) ____________Robyn -:- boundaries - Judex -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 16:20:45 (EST) ____Judex -:- to Robyn -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 01:26:05 (EST) ______Robyn -:- to Robyn -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 16:27:52 (EST) Katie -:- Why are we here, anyway? -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 23:55:35 (EST) __Selena -:- Why are we here, anyway? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:29:21 (EST) ____david f. -:- Why are we here, anyway? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:54:22 (EST) ______Selena -:- Why are we here, anyway? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 02:36:19 (EST) ________Judex -:- white spaces - to Selena -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 05:47:30 (EST) ________Robyn -:- Why are we here, anyway? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 08:53:23 (EST) ________charles -:- Why are we here, anyway? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:33:00 (EST) __Jean-Michel -:- Why are we here, anyway? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 05:56:05 (EST) __Jean-Michel -:- responsibilities -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 06:38:18 (EST) ____Deneb -:- responsibility for ????????? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 08:07:06 (EST) ______John -:- responsibility for ????????? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:15:49 (EST) ______Jean-Michel -:- responsibility for ????????? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:27:58 (EST) ______JW -:- Offensive Comment -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:26:02 (EST) __eb -:- Why are we here, anyway? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 11:31:53 (EST) ____Robyn -:- Why are we here, anyway? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 11:37:07 (EST) ______eb -:- Why are we here, anyway? -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 16:11:09 (EST) __G's mom -:- My thoughts..... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 11:37:13 (EST) ____Robyn -:- My thoughts..... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 11:45:32 (EST) ______G's mom -:- you are not the wacko.... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 11:52:54 (EST) ________Robyn -:- you are not the wacko.... -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:09:06 (EST) RT ALERT! -:- The next 17 months... -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 21:59:28 (EST) __Scott T. -:- The 2000 syndrome. -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 23:26:31 (EST) ____Scott T. -:- Some real excitement -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 23:44:22 (EST) ______Katie -:- Tornadoes are scary! -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:03:35 (EST) ________JW -:- Tornadoes are scary! -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:20:41 (EST) __________Scott T. -:- Tornadoes are scary! -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:28:28 (EST) ____________JW -:- Tornadoes are scary! -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:34:44 (EST) ______________Katie -:- Earthquakes are scary. -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:50:29 (EST) ____________Scott T. -:- More Storms. -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 17:13:58 (EST) ________carol -:- Katie:Three Continents -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 22:27:26 (EST) __________Katie -:- Katie:Three Continents -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 09:16:19 (EST) __________Scott T. -:- Katie:Three Continents -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 11:41:53 (EST) ______Carol -:- Some real excitement -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 22:21:08 (EST) ________Scott T. -:- Some real excitement -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:00:02 (EST) __________Carol -:- Some real excitement -:- Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 02:39:37 (EST) ____RT -:- The 2000 sin-drone. -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:49:41 (EST) ______Scott T. -:- The 2000 sin-drone. -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:12:02 (EST) __RT -:- EZ Reference 2000. -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:33:44 (EST) __RT -:- Y2K -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:00:15 (EST) ____JW -:- Y2K -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:18:58 (EST) ____Scott T. -:- Y2K -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:45:25 (EST) ______JW -:- Y2K -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:07:34 (EST) ________Scott T. -:- Y2K -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:54:15 (EST) __________JW -:- Y2K -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:06:04 (EST) ____________Scott T. -:- Y2K -:- Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 16:43:41 (EST) ______________Gerry -:- Y2K -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:51:03 (EST) ______________VP -:- Y2K and stocks, way off topic -:- Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 01:26:54 (EST) ______Judex -:- Y2K -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 02:27:43 (EST) ____Judex -:- Y2K -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 02:23:01 (EST) __Scott T. -:- This from Warfield -:- Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:09:55 (EST) |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:45:17 (EST)
From: Iola Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Need advice fast Message: Well, I printed off everything from this site except the old archives. It is currently at a copy shop (about 170 pages). Do I a) anonymously leave it at each person's door? b) send it out in the mail? c) think about it some more? d) stop being a zealot and hold on to the copies? e) none of the above My daughter got home yesterday and I presented her with the evidence (including the techniques) and told her about my serious doubts. She has been to about five programs in the last two years. She got swept up in it all at the 25 year anniversay special in Miami two years ago. She lost interest when they rejected her request for knowledge (but she was still open). Today she is phoning all her friends to tell them the news. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:01:18 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: Iola Subject: Need advice fast Message: I don't understand what you are asking or intending to do with the copies! Just confront premies and tell them you left? If so,It depends on whether you feel you can handle the reactions. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:02:19 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Iola Subject: Who is the recipient ? Message: Sorry if I missed something, but who were you planning to send/give the copies to? VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:06:02 (EST)
From: PaulR Email: None To: Iola Subject: Need advice fast Message: Dear Iola Sheeeet, you are in a difficult place. Please tell us what the News is that your daughter is phoning her friends to tell them? Whose doorsteps the copies from the site downloads are intended for. Am I in the middle of a thread here? I think that solutions C & D should work for 24 hours, while you take your daughter out for Ice Cream WITHOUT mentioning GM at all. After all Fat & Sugar is a super addictive substance. I am not recommending a lifestyle, merely a temporary relationship cement. Also, Do you have a secure spiritual place of your own? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:10:47 (EST)
From: Iola Email: None To: PaulR Subject: Need advice fast Message: The rest of the people in town here who go to the videos, programs, donate, bring in recruits, etc. After only one week, I feel so much better. They might too. My daughter is telling her friends that she told about the cult to in the first place. Kids I have also know for the past 15 years. She is astounded about the 180 degree change in BS. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:20:43 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Iola Subject: Need advice fast Message: I wouldn't send copies of stuff to people who might not be ready to see it. I guess each person could be different. You probably were ready and hence you were open to seeing the truth. Others might not be so open to it. In fact, I found premies to be, in some cases, downright hostile when I told them that my views on BM had changed. A few who were my 'close' friends weren't that way, but they just seemed kind of sad, but couldn't disagree, and then eventually followed me out of the cult. Of course, there wasn't any forum then, just discussion, and I told them what I thought, a little at a time, as much as I thought they could handle. I didn't want to offend them (too much). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:27:48 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: JW Subject: Need advice fast Message: Dear Iola, How about telling those you feel are close to you about the site and let them see what you have if they are interested and/or give them the web address. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:31:17 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Iola Subject: agree with JW Message: Now is the time to take care of Iola first. I agree it will only help them if they are already moving in that direction themselves. When I left I had a need to burn some bridges. I was VERY afraid of using those bridges to get back. I wrote some letters to people whom I later heard said ' I can't believe she would say something like that about Maharaj Ji'. And that was my intent. So I would suggest if you want to send these things FOR YOU...it may be different. But for now I would not try to do it for them. The further I got away from it all the less I cared who believed what anyway. I don't have a need to 'convert' or 'save' premies. Maybe that seems uncaring but DLM/EV is just one of many sad and destructive things in the world people get involved with so I save my energy for where I feel it really makes a difference? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 16:24:49 (EST)
From: red heels Email: None To: Iola Subject: Need advice fast Message: Please define what BS is abbreviation for as in '180 degree change in BS'? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 17:55:17 (EST)
From: Iola Email: None To: red heels Subject: BS Message: BS = belief system Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 16:44:08 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: Iola Subject: nice and easy .*<*... Message: Hi Lola, Perhaps you might want to remain anonomouse(sp). And maybe you may want to take a couple days and review the 160 pages and thin it down to the most effective help. Or maybe not! You may help people more by remaining unidentified and let them approach you with 'did you get something...' and dont fergit, some will have a hard time because of the long term investment they have made and it involves finding more solid ground. Perhaps a couple installments? Mark's journal entry among others are very helpful, anon's,ect. I guess I would go that route, You know how Mark in his journeys entry sort of walks you through a kind exposure to a fresh insight? It might be too advanced for some, but it does have the courtesy of considering the reader and thier possible reactions. THAT is helpful when digestion is assisted. Some things might be hard to understand, check for that. Some wont have access to a computer so they will be left without someone to talk to about this so maybe that is one reason to actually come out and put your name so they can call. In that case, do you want to give your self a little more time to digest things so that you can respond to any calls better? Your intent is to help. Since that is so, sit on the papers for some amount of days and let a fresh wave get you to move. This wave got you to print. Let a new inspiration move you the next step. It will come. Give the time so that you are comfortable. Even though we are seeing that m is not all he said and he is actually a force of deciet and waste, you and I can relax in the moment of life and feel good as we proceed to tell the truth. Since you were looking for something by posting this thread, maybe we should view that as your own natural impulse to pause and wait for your own next wave to come up first before the next move. That is being sensitive to your self. You are certainly honorable and I give you credit for skipping the post-cult member fear phase. You come first. Keep looking forward. Your breath is yours to feel without obligation to another. I am still lost about who you are. That is ok. It is kind of fun wondering. I am going away for a week and a half. Oh my god that will put me so far behind! I wish you well. bill Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 18:34:19 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: Iola Subject: nice and easy .*<*... Message: hi Iola, I 'm not sure what to do about this type of thing, I am in a similar situation, where people who are important to me are stuck in this BS. I agree that you should move slowly. Many people will be unable to process the information here, all in one big batch. Don't be too dissapointed if they cant be 'logical' right away. I have actually had to pretty much give up on my mom, I think she may be unapproachable on this, maybe till death. I don't know. I hope not. Anyway good luck, and many congratulations, for at least gaining your own freedom. sincerely x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 20:40:18 (EST)
From: PaulR Email: None To: Iola Subject: nice and easy .*<*... Message: Dear Iola, The previous posts contain some wisdom for you. Look at the posts on this forum. See how a short post is more effective than a long one. Apply this wisdom to your distribution of material. Garner your inner strength and decide to be true to it. You seemed to imply that you have only been away from GM for a short time (a week). Is this so? Please say definitively. Remember that you are your own person. That's why you were created. Listen to advice but feel free to reject it. You're the boss. Whatever you do, do it simply. There is more time than I believe that you think you have. God's time is eternal. Good luck and good wishes, pr Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 21:39:19 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: PaulR Subject: nice and easy .*<*... Message: Paul, You said it very tenderly and eloquently! carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 22:15:08 (EST)
From: Iola Email: None To: PaulR Subject: nice and easy .*<*... Message: That's right--one week. However, I've been struggling with this thing for 24 years. There has been a general lack of devotional juices for about 18 years. It really is a religion in our town. It reminds me of the book--WITHOUT SYMPATHY OR ENTHUSIASM. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 13:41:55 (EST)
From: PaulR Email: pgrobinson@hotmail.com To: Iola Subject: nice and easy .*<*... Message: Dear Iola, Thank you for your reply, 1 week. The first time I conciously decided not to attend a function/event or whatever it was called was in around 1986, when and because MJ announced that there would be a Cash Bar at the event. So that's about 12 years ago. (reasons later if you are interested.) However I too have been struggling with 'this thing' for about 24 years. And I expect to forever, because the part of our lives which GM touched is the sacred part, which does not heal easily. AND NOR SHOULD IT. I found this place www.ex-premie.org only 2 weeks ago. I have found healing and fellowship here. For me; This is not a place to attack GM. It is a place to find healing (wholeness) for myself, while others are seeking and finding the same, AND it can be that for you too. (I'm an expert on the site after 2 weeks (smiles)) You do not need to label yourself ex-premie, premie, or anything else to post here. If there is someone at the site whom you know apart from the site then I suggest that you obtain a private E-Mail address and converse with that person individually regarding things you may not wish to post publicly. Please however, continue to post here too. WE LOVE YOU. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 09:58:11 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: PaulR Subject: nice and easy .*<*... Message: Dear Paul, Iola and all, Email is very nice and I enjoy all my email correspondence but I find that although this stuff is touched on I find out more of the BM experience side and the spiritual side of the people I email on the forum. It makes sense and together the 2 lead to a deeper understanding of these people altogether. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 21:37:03 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: Iola Subject: nice and easy .*<*... Message: I think *<*'s advise to be wise! carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 06:45:10 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Iola Subject: relax and think Message: I also had the same kind of feelings towards my friends about 1 year ago when I finally understood I had to leave the cult. I also printed some copies and sent a few faxes. I wouldn’t do that anymore. It’s very painful to think that you’ll have to leave your premie friends etc. Remember : one essential part of involvement in this is precisely the ‘group phenomenon’, and what is really painful is not to be a part of it anymore. But YOU are the one who is leaving. YOU understood something out of all these materials, you would not have very likely a few months before you decided to do some research. If these people are really your friends, there is no need to attend EV’s meetings, or m’s events to be in touch with them. Call them, invite them for lunch tea or dinner, talk with them, some interesting things might happen. You’ll very likely discover that these guys too have doubts. You might then give then some facts they don’t know. That might help them one day. As long as they don’t ask the BIG questions for themselves, they won’t follow you all the way. They might one day (like everybody else did, remember more than 90% of the premies left sooner or later) .... I don’t find any problem being friend with people believing things I don’t believe in. We sometimes have good arguments. That’s all. If they are really friends, they’ll try to understand why you are where you are now. The will make their own way to the exit, like you did. It’s painful to see friends and people you like being trapped in such a mess. The best way to help them might be to simply stay a good friend for them. I’ve always appreciated good non-premies friends when I was involved, as long as they wouldn’t criticise my beliefs. The finally were very helpful when I left, because they were the only real friends left. It takes time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:25:54 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: Judex Subject: Your previous post Message: Judex wrote: 'I had a really holistic experience last night that all is well. That there is no split on the level where he other stuff happens. There can't be because it is all love, - forgiveness, compassion - even beyond those last two states. I found myself accepting that I am 'someone' in my 'personalities' but underneath am bigger and much deeper than that. It is hard to say in words. I forgave Maharaji and no longer felt any separation. Isn' t that weird? It stopped all the fear of death, of being punished - because I understood that underneath 'Maharji' and 'me' all is understood, all is well. Then there is the other stuff going on with me, Judith, and him and others in our 'daily lives' selves. But one doesn't really relate to the other at all, and I still believe in everything against cults and against Knowledge. I felt this tremendous liberation that I could still achieve devotion (to god) and liberation without having to practice or be a disciple of anyone. It's like there are no rules, really. That's how I felt last night. Maybe I am on drugs!?! Forgive me if I have offended anyone but it could be like the tiny yin inside the big yang - it just has to be there.' Judex, nobody responded to you post, and I have only just read it. I've gotten behind, it takes so much time to read them all! I can really relate to what you felt, and I did not want you to think that it was offensive or irrelevant. This was an important insight and worthy to be shared! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:27:34 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: carol Subject: oops!To Judex:Your post! Message: Attention,Judex! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:00:39 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: carol Subject: To Judex Message: Judex: I felt this tremendous liberation that I could still achieve devotion (to god) and liberation without having to practice or be a disciple of anyone. It's like there are no rules, really. That sounds right to me. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 16:06:55 (EST)
From: Paul Email: None To: Judex Subject: Your previous post Message: Nice experience. I threw out the 'baby with the bathwater' after dumping BM. It took me some years to rediscover that what had originally motivated me in my pursuit of 'knowledge' was still there and not connected to BM. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 16:13:11 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Paul Subject: Your previous post Message: To all, Our spiritual connection is to ourself and from that point it radiates out into our world. The origin is just a part of our humanness. It is a liberating realization. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:56:50 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Holi.... Message: I was reading some posts with references to 'Holi'. To me, that one one of the few things I remember as fun. I wish we all got to spray the water cannon too... I went to one once that was really small. In 1975 at Cape Florida on Key Biscayne. It was one of the things that kind of hooked me...it was right after I 'recieved Knowledge'....which was in January...and as I recall Holi was on a Good Friday....which some found bizarre thus I remember the date. There was also a program after at Edison High School auditorium, I believe in Miami. Premlata was I think a few weeks old. Wasn't she born in March of that year? Anyone else there? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:20:46 (EST)
From: Iola Email: None To: G's mom Subject: Holi.... Message: Premlata was born around then. I remember a Holi 81. MJ decided to spray paint some of us with permanent pink paint. I flew home in first class with pink hair and skin. LOVELY. It was wet on a hot summer's day. I tried to squeeze out some 'experience' out of it. Remember the time he came out in his Mala costume to the Rod Stewart tune, 'Do ya think I'm sexy?' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:27:52 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: all Subject: yep.... Message: I was there for that Mala thing... That was one of those things that really helped me out. The dissonance of the 'Do ya think I am sexy' and that costume and his appearance.....I mean he really looked quite foolish and my 'evil mind' kept telling me that as I looked at him. Months ago I posted that it was the program at Phillie when he danced in that costume I sort of snapped and those thoughts flooded me. It was when this other premie, said she became orgasmic at the site of him in that costume dancing around, I found it repulsive. If there was a moment I was OUTTA HERE that was the moment..... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:19:54 (EST)
From: Iola Email: None To: G's mom Subject: yep.... Message: That's what got me hooked. HE saw this little Honda from Ontario, and he could tell there were premies in the car...and guess what?--I was in that car. I was so blasted that the LORD OF THE UNIVERSE would take the time to beep at our car and then talk about it later. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 16:30:22 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: G's mom Subject: yep.... Message: G Ma: That's interesting that the krishna costume helped push you out the door, I think it helped me leave too. I just felt I didn't belong anymore. I mean, I just did NOT get all hot and bothered seeing his bare flesh, ya know? The worst experience I had though with darshan was in Orlando when he drove around on the dirt roads in that wierd krishna outfit. Yuck! and it was supposed to be some great treat. What also annoys me about him is that he just never talked about stuff like that. He never explained why he dressed up as Krishna, he never explained what we were supposed to think or feel about it, he never explained its significance or meaning, he never explained what we were supposed to do if we were turned off. Oh, but I forgot, that would actually involve 'thinking'. John ...felt nausea in '79 at the sight of the ex-Lord Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 18:02:35 (EST)
From: Iola Email: None To: John Subject: yep.... Message: Gee, you sure seem to know who I am. Who are you, John? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 19:27:42 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: Iola Subject: yep.... Message: Wow this festival memory lane has me thinking, Do ya think I'm sexy, sounds eerily familiar. I definitely remember the red suit, my mom had a picture of him in his little gold crown, right next to Durga Ji, I mean marylin. I remember how blissed out every one was especially after BM,s satsang. I was actually a little jealous of the childish naivete(sp) of the blissed out premies. And I was only 10 !? God it was worse than drug addicts, after 'scoring', (and I should know!) It was really strange and surreal being around all that. I can only relate it to 'the emperors new clothes' story. I saw through the clothes almost immediately, although I think I may have been a little swayed at first by the hype. It's funny really, because I just resigned myself to it(BM's world),and gave up on talking anyone back to reality, about 20 years ago. I must say I am very proud of all of you who have broken free from the stifling, financially draining, stagnant,dogmatic personality(???)CULT of Prem Pal Rawatt, entrepeneur extrordinairre. ....x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 18:29:25 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: x Subject: x, you are wise Message: I'm pretty proud of you for thinking that it was a batch of hooey as I was thinking that it was really cool and I was only a little older than you. Maybe if it had been my parents who were involved, I would have seen it more clearly. Instead it was these other 'really cool' people in my family. Of course my parents were wise but I thought they were kind of un hip!! So I was attracted to it. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 14:58:02 (EST)
From: John Email: john.kreilkamp@mailexcite.com To: Iola Subject: Hey Iola Message: Why do you say that I seem to know who you are? I have no idea who you are. I am John Kreilkamp, but don't tell anyone. If you know me, email me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 09:59:50 (EST)
From: Iola Email: None To: John Subject: Hey John Message: Sorry. You were address Gunther's Mum and you said G.Ma. G is my first initial and Ma is the start of my last name. I had just finished posting about MJ spotting us in a car, so I figured you knew me. Yes, I am paranoid. I have heard the way 'traitors' have been discussed before. I went to the video again last night and sure enough--MJ talked about the three vows in one video. In the second one he discussed service. He also said that people who got into their head and out of their heart would not be with him anymore. So I rush out of the video to go see my best friend's mother. I gave her the new knowledge package (all 289 pages I printed) with the intent to steal it back (can you believe I'm 43). Anyway as cosmic things go, a song came on the radio 'I'M A GURU ZOMBIE, YES I AM.' As most of you indicated, things are not going as well as I expected. This woman, I gave the package to, passed it on to her son-in-law, an MD who has only been involved for about three years. He hardly ever goes inside the doors of programs (they bring the baby and he stays outside bouncing it). He never comes to the video events, etc. HE PASSED THE PACKAGE OFF AS A BUNCH OF DISGRUNTLED PREMIES. I am amazed. He gives psychotherapy to others. He surely has heard of ..... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 11:02:44 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Iola Subject: Mind vs. heart BS Message: Iola: You said M said in the video: 'people who got into their head and out of their heart would not be with him anymore.' That is soooo typical of a cult leader's statement. What the HELL does it mean to get 'into your head' ?? Obviously he means to judge, to evaluate, to THINK, right? One problem with that dualistic approach (heart vs. mind) is that it minimizes the mind's importance and makes a devil out of it. Why is our ability to evaluate and judge and think, evil, or something to be ignored? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 21:20:32 (EST)
From: PaulR Email: pgrobinson@hotmail.com To: Iola Subject: Hey John Message: Dear Iola, Yes it's a little bit scary to know that people are talking about you behind your back. But what is really scary is when you THINK they are but you're not sure. This might be the case for you at this time. I heard a group of peple in a different kind of recovery talking and one of them said; 'Compare yourself with yourself, don't compare yourself with others.' I just thought that this advice sounded like something you would like to hear. regards, god wishes and good luck PaulR Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:35:04 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: anger, me and the inactive Message: To all, This Sunday a friend was visiting and wanted to see my new glasses and how strong they are. She needed a book. I went to the shelf and just grabed on...The Dance of Anger. I told her, she loves me and puts up with my mysticism, I couldn't get into that book years ago but thought it very telling that I took it out at that time and now, as opposed to being at my bedside, it is in my car, where I spend most of my off time these days so I'd have it if I had the chance to start reading it. I just was looking at the inactive list because I've only had a few minutes here each day since last Thursday. I found the thread on anger. I think maybe you've all had your fill so no worries if you don't respond here but I'd like to get this out, thinking through my writing if you will allow me. I am going through so much today over upsetting Selena. I am very shaky with anger in my life, mine or others if it is explosive and in that I agreed with Scott's thought about it not being anger that is important, but openness. I know when I came back this morning and responded to Anon I felt stronger in expressing what my anger was about that just expressing the anger itself. I am trying to see the value of expressing the anger itself and I am sure I will benifit from work I do in this regard. Judex mentioned what about if you can't even feel anger. I think I fall into that catagory to a large degree and experience it more in the frame of coming to someone else's defence. When I was seeing my first therapist and of course talking mostly about my mother some things about my dad came out and I've always remembered that she said I DO have anger for my dad that I am not in touch with. My dad was by far the better parent but had some major and hurtful indiscretions. I still, 10 years later do not feel that anger toward my dad and I am hauted by the thought that I may be trying to 'create' this anger toward him because of what that therapist said. On the other hand if it is in there I WANT to get it out. I am feeling so badly about offending Selena I see it as inappropriately exaggerated, why, I am asking myself. I don't know but what I do know is that this forum does indeed give me what I need often in enlightenment and support. I do feel responsible for so strongly offending Selena, I am not disregarding that I just see the fact that I have been crying and even sobbing at work for hours now is to strong of a reaction. I felt like expressing anger was a goal and it was safe to do it here and now I feel that was a wrong assumtion. What did I get from that experience? It was a release big time at the moment and then it was fun to see the responses from Rick, JW, Katie, and Charles. This morning I was expecting something from anon and that is when I got to what the anger was really about. Now one without the other is totally usless or would have been for me in this situation but as Carol said:(Care should be taken not to traumatize innocent children or bystanders with scary displays!) Yes Carol, I agree and that is where I went wrong with Selena, never giving a thought to how I use to feel about reading the anger and not thinking of others that couldn't take it reading my post because I am not known here for my expressions of anger so I am realtively safe to most. I really enjoyed and got a lot of food for thought from reading the back and forth between Peter, Scott and to a lesser degree in number but not quality, Stephen, Judex and Carol. I know I have a huge problem with violence as it was to much a part of my life from when I was just toddling around. Maybe that is why I can't feel anger well. Stephen, I have known and worked on for years my lack of defining my boundaries for myself or others in their dealings toward me and appreciate your writing that anger is a response to boundaries violations but am not sure if or how that relates to this experience on the forum with Selena. Peter, I have written down the Emotional Hostage and it will keep company with The Dance of Anger in my car for a while I'm sure. Scott, you said that anger is not a fundimental emotion but a reaction but isn't an emotion a feeling and anger certainly is an emotion. When is an emotion not fundemental, when it is derived from another emotion? (I guess I am soliciting a response to that one) As far as shame, Scott it is something I'll have to think about, are you suggesting that anger really is shame? I think Stephen's bit on shame was valid and that guilt is the definition I was thinking of when ever I saw you use the word shame. To me just at a quick glance, shame and anger are very different. Shame is embarassment and anger is strong and extroverted. That's all for now, thank you for bearing with me on this. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:48:34 (EST)
From: PaulR Email: None To: Robyn and all Subject: anger, me and the inactive Message: Thank you for your post. You know there are two sides to a post. The giving side and the receiving side. What the receiver understands can be different than from sender intended. Don't worry about the reception your message gets, worry about truthfulness of the sender My guess, is that the people here are more able to understand, than they are able to judge. BECAUSE: None of us is unique and whatever you put out in the world, provided it comes from the heart is going to be of significant value to at least one other person (if they are listening,) and of some value (provided it comes from the heart, a true plce or whatever we call it) to everyone else. The great crime (one of them) of premie society, is that no one is alowed to heal their neighbor in this way. For myself I have appreciated your post about anger, and I am going to go back and read it now. This is for me, it doesn't have anything to do with you any more. I just wanted to say 'thank-you.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:59:36 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Robyn Subject: anger, me and the inactive Message: I would concur with Scott that anger is not a primary emotion. Fear is the primary emotion and it comes from selfishness and selfishness comes from ignorance. (Love is not an emotion. Love is the source of all that is. Love is life itself.) That little insight into dependent origination came to me one day when the pressure was on. It has obvious Buddhist origins. I find it comforting or at least stabilizing. And I obviously still indulge anger. So what. i don't think there is a good reason for judging yourself. Other people will do plenty of that for you. I liked what you had to say and how you said it. I don't think any of us are beholden to the sensibilities of others and especially that sensibility about a certain short list of words. I consider that sensibility at best a wolf in sheep's clothing. As for me, I loathe it. I am sick to death of being manipulated by that holier than thou stance and will not go along with it. See, I got angry. Charles Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:46:27 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: Robyn and all Subject: anger, me and the inactive Message: Dear Robyn, You are obviously doing a lot of processing of pain, which is needed to understand where your anger is coming from. I really don't think that the written word as found here carries as much harmful impact of angry displays witnessed in person. And we're all grown-ups here, as far as I know. My comment about innocent bystanders and children was not intended to apply to here. But, as you know, I, like you, was also 'offended' and a bit intimidated at first by the slamming and hyper-critical comments I read here. But we got over it, didn't we? And partly because Selena and Brian and Jim helped me understand that any anger expressed was justified (no one needs to justify their feelings!) and that I shouldn't be a judge about it and tell people how to express themselves. Selena and I (and you) have switched places in a way. With their help and yours, I can recognize that honesty of expression is more important than the way we do it. With love to you and all, Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:34:44 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: carol Subject: anger, me and the inactive Message: To all who have replied, Thank you so much, this is much more than I expected and I thought tanning got me past the tears but now they are back and I see them as an indication that I indeed need to deal with something here, what exactly I don't know but I'm sure it will be reveled to me as it usually is. This place is wonderful! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 17:03:31 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net To: Robyn Subject: anger, me and the inactive Message: I tell you this not knowing if it is like your life at all. When I grew up I hated my mother and loved my father. For one thing my mother did all the disciplining. When my parents divorced I wanted him. But it did not take long to find out he wanted me so that she couldn't have me. Later I found out he was an alcoholic the whole time I was growing up. She kept this hidden from me as a kid. All I could see was that she was often angry at dad for no reason. I think she ran the home by herself and resented him for not being a partner in making decisions. He was happy to just work. I still remembered the same things about my childhood when I became a adult. But my perspective of why things happened changed from my childhood view. This story may very well be off target; and therapists can be wrong. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 18:06:46 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Stephen Harris Subject: anger, me and the inactive Message: Dear Stephen, I do relate to your childhood family dynamic as it is similar to mine. I was thinking about all this on my hour drive to job 2 and realized that I have been so worried about remembering some sexual thing my dad did to me, because he did to one of my sisters, that I haven't considered that I felt so alone and unprotected as a child. My mother was the diciplinarian for sure and straped with 5 kids, being Catholic, and my dad had his own business and was gone a lot and it was just to much for her. She would run around and shut the windows and beat us with a six foot leather dog leash folded in half and if you got in her way when she was hitting someone else she'd lash right out at any innocent child. She would also tell us that if we told my dad it would be worse for us when he left the next time. The protection I didn't get from my dad was not his fault but maybe that is where my childhood perspective took hold of anger toward him because I thought he was 'letting' her do it. They are still together and that makes me sad as he is now becoming an angry man and he was always so nice. He's been stuffing it for years. Thanks Stephen, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 00:19:20 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Robyn Subject: to Robyn Message: robyn I haven't finished reading this seriously excellent and helpful thread but I have to say something here The protection I didn't get from my dad was not his fault but maybe that is where my childhood perspective took hold of anger toward him because I thought he was 'letting' her do it. As far as I have read about child abuse, the other parent IS supposed to protect you. He DID let you down by not 'knowing' about what was happening. You have a right to feel rage, grief and anything else you feel about being unprotected. It is very important that you do not forgive so quickly being denied one of the most basic rights of childhood, according to the United Nations, which is SAFETY. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:02:55 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Judex Subject: to Robyn Message: Dear Judex, God, thanks for that, that is a BIG piece of this puzzle for me! I feel those tears but am fighting them back, don't want to cry another day away and now I know what I'm dealing with. I can't thank you enough! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 10:10:47 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Judex Subject: Judex, about protection Message: Dear Judex, I've been thinking about your post about being right to hold anger at my dad for not protecting me. I do agree that, as a child I had a right to be angry and feel unprotected and look to my dad as the only one who could but I remembered an event that maybe explains why as an adult I can understand his position and that that anger is a child's anger and that I need to deal with it and not hold him responsible for it. (He has some things that he is responsible for big time and those, Robyn the adult is angry at him for). I dont remember exactly what had happend to cause my mother to beat me except that it had something to do with catchup, maybe dropping it and making a mess, anyway I got beat and my dad came home so she had to stop before she had let it run it's course. She let me up and turned me to face her and said, if you tell your dad, it will be worse for you when he is gone. So maybe she did keep it hidden and even though he knew she was a bitch and mean to him and us maybe he didn't know how bad it really was. This is also bringing up more memories as I type but I want to see what you say to this before I continue. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 17:32:19 (EST)
From: Paul Email: None To: Robyn Subject: CBT and anger Message: Robyn: a technique that I have found useful comes from cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT). CBT presents a model in which feelings are seen to follow thoughts, rather than appearing magically out of thin air. Albert Ellis, PhD, a founder of CBT suggests using the ABCs: A-activating event, i.e, someone slams me in the forum B-beliefs. These come in two varietys: IRs or irrational beliefs which are responsible for feelings that follow, i.e. that fact I've been slammed must mean that I'm stupid, and nobody likes me. RBs or rational beliefs replace IRs during step D, i.e. I wish everybody would like me but that's unrealistic, or sometimes I do say stupid things but hey, I'm not perfect, nor does it mean that I'm stupid. C-emotional Consequences-usually the step where we enter into this process, i.e. I'm angry, depressed , etc. D-Disputing, This is where we challange those irrational beliefs and replace them with rational beliefs. E-the new emotional effects which replace those we were experiencing at C. Practicing the ABCs may be awkward at first but becomes easier very quickly. Our thought patterns are often so ingrained that we don't recognize them as irrational or needing to be challenged. There is a great deal of research that supports CBT methodogy in the therapeutic process (I worked in the Mental Health field for nearly 20 years and my experience, both personally and professionally supports it as well) There are a number of books by Ellis, Beck and others on the subject. You might give it try. Paul Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 18:11:15 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Paul Subject: CBT and anger Message: Dear Paul, Thank you dear I will look up Ellis and Beck. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 00:27:01 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Paul Subject: CBT and anger Message: Yes I read a book like that to help me with depression. That disputing the beliefs is really good. The problem is I remember, that if we say something to ourselves, inside our head, we think it is true, whereas if someone else said it to use we would defend ourselves. eg if you said to me, 'you are a stupid idiot' I might say 'I am not! I got 1st level English in High School and that proves I am not stupid.' or whatever. So it's good to try and dispute the belief or negative inner voice, as you said. In pyschotherapy the same work is done with the therapist representing the stronger more centralised 'self' until the person can do it themselves - that's my understanding of part of that process. That's why asking questions is so fantastic. Why did you say that? Why do you think that? Is that true? The famous 'so you think.......' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 18:19:49 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Robyn Subject: anger, me and the inactive Message: Robyn: I don't know if it was anger you were expressing or not. I just thought it was great that you felt you could express whatever it was you were feeling and that you felt comfortable enough to do that. Especially because I saw you for awhile prior to that being put off by strong language and trying to deal with it, including learning (in a humerous way) how to cus, as instructed by Rick. Plus, I found your post terribly funny, and despite the fact that I spilled coffee on myself laughing, it was great. Even last night as I was falling asleep I was STILL laughing about it. Even anon, one of the targets of the post, said it was funny. It was not only funny, it was kind of refreshing. Plus, it was touching to me that you would feel strongly enough to say those things in defense of, Brian, SOMEONE OTHER THAN YOURSELF. I don't know how many people would put themselves out there for somebody else, someone who isn't your own kid or something, and I think there is something noble in that. JW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 20:32:45 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: JW Subject: anger, me and the inactive Message: Dear Joe, Thank you so much you know I think a lot of you and so what you said here means a lot to me. I did see that post where Anon said it was funny which I smiled at but wondered why, then he seemed so defensive when 1st responding to it but there could be a plethora of reasons for that I guess. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 00:06:06 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Shame and Anger Message: Robyn: Sorry I haven't gotten around to answering this yet. The subject field didn't give much of a clue as to what your post was about, so I've just been passing over it. Scott, you said that anger is not a fundamental emotion but a reaction but isn't an emotion a feeling and anger certainly is an emotion. When is an emotion not fundemental, when it is derived from another emotion? Anger is emotional, to be sure. I am not certain that it is an emotion. (I'm not an expert in this, so I'm just thinking out loud.) Infants seem to express anger, or something like it, when they are deprived. But, it's really more like distress. I propose that they 'learn' the anger response as a form of distress that gets especially quick results. Again, I suspect it is not a primary emotion however, but a learned response and an acquired taste (like fat). This viewpoint is not in line with the Freudian perspective. It just makes sense to me. The psychologist I would go to first if I wanted to research this would probably be Kohlberg, the developmental guy. Then I'd look up people who referenced him, to see if there is a good counter-argument. As far as shame, Scott it is something I'll have to think about, are you suggesting that anger really is shame? I think Stephen's bit on shame was valid and that guilt is the definition I was thinking of when ever I saw you use the word shame. To me just at a quick glance, shame and anger are very different. Shame is embarassment and anger is strong and extroverted. I brought up this business of shame because I'm trying on Frederick Turner's philosophy to see if it 'fits.' Shame, according to Turner, is related to beauty, not anger. They are in a sort of symbiosis, so that suppressing shame also suppresses a sense of beauty. Beauty, again according to Turner, is the 'Anima Mundi' or the 'value of values.' A sense of beauty is our direct line to truth, efficiency, prosperity, judgment, right and wrong, etc. It's a powerful philosophical position, and rests in part on this notion of 'neurocharms' that give all humans a common point of reference (or at least a common area of reference) for judgment. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to express that. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 00:38:52 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Shame and Anger Message: that term 'neuro charms' is one of yours I can't decipher simply by trying to guess from the word itself. Could you explain it in context (ie with an example?) if you don't mind, just to aid my comprehension of your points. Well the gist of what you are saying in the above post causes me to remember how I stood up to my boss yesterday. Beside the point but on the point of shame, I have to say here that for a girl, I have a rather prominent nose. If I was born 10 years later I would have had it fixed, but I figure it is distinguishing now. My mum also had a large nose, and she suffered a lot of shame and taunts in school. Mine is kind of 'english' looking - people used to say I look like the queen (in school) Okay, that point now out - whenever I stood up for myself I used to feel so ashamed that I would feel all people could see was how ugly I am (which I'm not, really - but I felt I was repulsive somehow). This one time, yesterday, I told this lady all my grievances and I kept engaged with her, even when she tried to ridicule me and deny everythign I said. I did not let her overpower me. I told her she did not have to convince me, because I did not have to agree with her. (I knew I did not have to be right, either, I was just saying what I felt and letting her say what she felt). I kept eye contact and purposely felt proud of myself inside, and the strength I have got from the people here. Rather than the 'false pride' I am obviously terrified of (which really masks shame and insecurity) I just felt okay, I could 'face' her. This is how I stood up for myself and listened to my own feelings, as well as my thinking, and left this second job, where I was being treated in an exploitative and belittling way which I am no longer prepared to accept. the end Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 01:31:01 (EST)
From: Scott Email: None To: Judex Subject: Neurocharms Message: Judex: The concept of neurocharms comes from Turner's take on research into human cognition. For instance, complexity is attractive to most people up to a point, after which we perceive it as 'busy.' We don't all have the same crossover point, but very few of us would just equate complexity with beauty. At a certain point we just overload. Humans also like discussion and discourse. Our tastes vary of course, but we all engage in it and take some pleasure in the use of language in argument. The range of our predispositions is narrower than would be the case if we simply embodied the full range of possibilities, so the cognitive psychologists figure that our sense of beauty is more or less 'hard wired' at least in terms of what we pay attention to. Taste is another neurocharm, that humans are endowed with. Taste is also one of the cross-over concepts that links several neurocharm 'families.' Language and poetry with food and cooking, as well as dance and visual stimulation. Taste crosses all of them. Some of these links are 'allowed' while others are merely possible, theoretically, but just never happen. Texture is related to physical touch, but also to language and poetry. It's been awhile since I read the book, so will probably have to re-read it to see if I have this right. Basically, however, he sees four families of neurocharms that are roughly parallel to the four aspects of knowledge. However, they are actual physical senses and basic likes and dislikes in the form of neurological predispositions, not meditation techniques. He uses the example of someone who wears a hand-me-down dress, which is a source of embarrassment. The sense of beauty is awakened by the embarrassment, as long as it is genuinely felt and not suppressed or avoided. Beauty has nothing to do with the quality of the dress, but with the capacity to surpass conventions and have experiences that test the boundaries of cognition. We then achieve a new sense of beauty and perspective that expands beyond convention and ultimately replaces it. Shame gives us the 'energy' to do that, to establish new plateaus or bases for judgment. It shatters what merely seems 'agreeable,' which has to be shattered in order to give us a new perspective, or add a new dimension to how we see the world. I think its this 'breaking through to new beginnings or dimensions' that is his central thesis. It's a process that doesn't end, but that is not really random. It involves selectivity without being selective, so it solves one of the big problems in philosophy: How do you explain and explore the 'lifeworld' or the overall context of the social network (from which no one can really escape) without losing the notion of objectivity? You do it by allowing shame to motivate the breakthroughs, and ultimately replace the old perspectives. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:15:40 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Judex Subject: Shame and Anger Message: Dear Judex, Great! I am also invigerated when I stand up for myself anywhere but especially with employeers. This job (1) has given my PLENTY of opportunities in that regard. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:11:50 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Scott T. Subject: Shame and Anger Message: Dear Scott, Another post I will have to print out and refer back to. Thanks for the explinations. My question now is how is shame related to beauty, could it be that shame comes when you have blocked beauty? Kind of makes sence that way to me. All of this 'work' steming from the forum, MMT and email has me thinking back to the thread on the 7 day week. I have squeezed all the time I can out of the day but cutting into my sleep and now with all this that I am chomping at the bit to deal with has me voting for, what a 34 hour day, no one would go for that, maybe a 28 hour day? To hell with the rythmn of nature, the sun and day and night. I'm starting a petition! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 00:18:56 (EST)
From: Peter Email: None To: Robyn Subject: anger, me and the inactive Message: Hi Robyn. A couple thoughts came up in response to your post. One is that being angry is not being mean. Being mean is trying to hurt somebody. Being angry is trying to get them to stop treating you (or someone else) in an unacceptable way. I have seen some meanness on this forum, but never any from you, including your now-famous rant. That was anger and had the clear purpose of trying to get some ruffians to change their sorry ways. I know when I came back this morning and responded to Anon I felt stronger in expressing what my anger was about that just expressing the anger itself. I am trying to see the value of expressing the anger itself and I am sure I will benifit from work I do in this regard. I don't know if this came from my posts, but I want to clarify that I only think expressing anger has value if it is very clearly stated what the anger is about. You did a good job of that. Care should be taken not to traumatize innocent children or bystanders with scary displays I wish I had experienced more anger in my environment as a child. Not violence, not meanness, but healthy, directed anger. There are cultures that are much more healthy about anger than ours (I'm thinking specifically of some Italian families I knew) and the children do not find it scary, they find it normal. It does not have to mean that something bad is going to happen. I feel badly about offending Selena, too, as I was clearly part of that. Besides anger, disappointment is another big issue for me. I find it very difficult when someone expresses disappointment in me. I am working on accepting that sometimes it is just going to happen no matter what I do. In this case I do not see that either you or I did anything wrong, so my interpretation is that we just touched a raw nerve with Selena. Good luck in your continued progress on expressing anger. I hope that you can learn to express anger in defense of yourself and your own boundaries. I've known a number of other women who, like you, found it much easier to get angry in defense of others. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 01:58:08 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Peter Subject: anger, me and the inactive Message: Peter: With this distinction between 'meanness' and 'anger' you are really second guessing your own philosophy. Some anger is mean, while some is not. It's like the difference between a scratch and a stab. What bothers me about this 'elevation of anger' is that it can become a strategy for avoiding shame. I'm not saying that one has to always forego anger, but it's a matter of personal insight as to whether anger is a cover-up or a valid reaction. My point is that YOU know the difference, not me. That basically leaves me in the dark, and I'd prefer that your capacity to see the difference were enhanced to the point that you could not fool yourself. There is no set of universal agreements that we can reach mutually in order to regulate anger and keep it from becoming mean, or cold, or retro. We have laws and social sanctions to deal with meanness, and by an large those constrain the expression of anger. That's because the two are not mutually exclusive and WE don't really know how one creates or enhances the other. You take a lot for granted. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 02:50:24 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Peter Subject: anger, me and the inactive Message: Peter, you said: 'I wish I had experienced more anger in my environment as a child. Not violence, not meanness,but healthy, directed anger.' If it were healthy directed anger of limited duration, that may be good for children to see. If they also saw problem-solving and apologies. That was not my experience of being a witness to the emotionally charged yelling between my parents. Problems were not solved by doing that. I really wonder how they could have shown healthy anger when it was not in their experience either! I saw them crying, too. Not the gentle crying of losing a loved one, but wrenching, inconsolable crying. Children feel frightened and powerless when the adults they count on for everything can't even take care of themselves. I suspect that children of other cultures who are exposed to fighting and grief on a regular basis are not as healthy as you think. Perhaps only people who have experienced this as children would know. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 03:14:01 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Carol Subject: anger, me and the inactive Message: ditto on both those experiences in childhood. terrifying. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 10:07:41 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Carol Subject: anger, me and the inactive Message: Carol: Thanks for sharing those experiences. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 14:10:28 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Carol Subject: anger, me and the inactive Message: Thanks, Carol, I think what you say is true. I think one way to express anger in a healthy way that Peter might be referring to is just for a parent or family member to say that they ARE experiencing anger. I think what happening in many of our homes was that anger was not supposed to be happening, and certainly never expressed. There were several dysfunctional reasons for this. One was that even experiencing anger could be viewed as a sign of weakness or lack of control, both of which were disparaged in many of our homes. I think they were also disparaged in the premie world, as well by the way, because as a premie you were supposed to be happy all the time, having been given the supreme gift, etc., and because, as arti says, 'anger' is one of the things that 'deprives us of eternal life.' I recall sometime after I left the cult, it was an exhilarating experience to actually 'feel' anger, especially to be able to feel it towards BM, because that wasn't allowed in the progamming of premies. Another reason is that sometimes people are afraid of their anger. They are afraid that if they allow themselves to experience it, that it will consume them, or cause them to do things they can't control. I think this is especially true if, as a child, they were punished or ridiculed for exhibiting anger, or they saw the anger of parents directed at them, often as the available target, not really the cause of the anger, in the form of violent or unpredictable behavior. I think unpredictability might even be more damaging than violent behavior sometimes. At an early age I think a child knows that he or she is dependent on the parents, especially the mother, for survival, and thus they quickly modify behaviors to do what maximizes survival, including repressing normal anger. If the attitude of the parent becomes unpredictable, those coping mechanisms break down and that's very stressful. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 15:53:14 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: JW Subject: unpredictable anger Message: Dear JW, Big time, my mother's anger/violence was very unpredictable and when she was on the rampage innocent by standards, us kids who weren't the original offenders could get the shit beat out of us just for being to close. My mother was, for some strange reason, very attachet to getting cards for special occassions. (For years I would only get people cards for no reason, never on holidays.) My dad had his own business and is by nature a night owl, my mom an early riser, BTW. If there was an occasion I would stay up until he came home no matter what. I started this at about 6 yrs old. I would be sure he had a card and I remember him always saying, 'Thanks, pal.' I have no idea what he did if he'd forgotten as there were no 24 hour stores then. Once I wasn't aware of the occassion and woke up to a scene and so got out paper and made a card fast. I found out that day that made cards were not good enough only store bought cards would pacify her. I think I read this morning in a post from Judex that she was the peace maker, is that right Judex? I too was the peace maker, could you tell? I was always ironing things out to avoid the tirade and lashings that would surely follow if things didn't quite down. Just no way of knowing for sure how to avoid the violence and for some reason it seemed to have that effect on me alone. I guess we each had our own hell to get through and it just affected each of us differently. I am the only one as an adult who believes in the deeper meaning of life except, maybe my religious sister but you know how I feel about that. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 15:35:07 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Peter Subject: anger, me and the inactive Message: Dear Peter, I don't know if this came from my posts, but I want to clarify that I only think expressing anger has value if it is very clearly stated what the anger is about. You did a good job of that. Do you mean here during my rant or the next day in my explination? Peter I am Italian, my paternal gradparents came to the US from Napels but I grew up with violent anger, from my mom who was from Italian ancestors that had been in the US for generations. Thank you so, Peter for your post to me. It touches my heart and gives me encouragement. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 16:19:26 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Robyn Subject: What I think, Robyn Message: Robyn, I am days behind on reading here and those 'dirty dishes' (posts) are piling up. I finally read the brou ha ha over your post. I honestly can say that I had a reaction very similar to JW's-I was laughing. I was wondering also if you had really written it at first. I think that after you have talked to Brian on the phone a couple of times and written emails you get a feel for who he is and what he is like. It makes it easy to befriend him. He is a nice person. Same with you, Robyn. Just because you got pissed off once that really doesn't change my opinion of you. I don't know Anon at all except for what I have read here. I have never spoken to him personally. I think maybe that is why you were so defensive of Brian, because you know him a bit. To be honest with you, I also hate it when people complain about stuff when they aren't doing the work. After serving on several committees and working in volunteer and other thankless positions, I find it very annoying. I'm not saying that I think constructive criticism is bad, I don't. And suggestions are a good thing. But you do tend to get more 'with sugar than with shit' when making suggestions to someone. I really liked some things about David Stirling's site and I told Brian that. I asked him why some things that I liked were changed and he told me. His explanation (not that he even owed me one) made sense to me. He was good enough to talk about it with me, too. I really loved the techniques page that David had because it really called to aspirants, but more people who have already received K come here than do folks like me. I think it has more to do with who your site users are. I think it's good to have a link for aspirants like me to see the K techniques presented that way, also. I guess we have that now. I side with Brian in thinking that the forum is the most important part of the site. It is living and vital. It offers people what they really need--answers. I have been to lots of sites and wished that I could just ASK someone there something, but I couldn't. It's like those darn annoying phone systems who answer all of the phone lines now. You can never get a real person. Here you can. If other parts of the site have to suffer for this, I think it's ok. At least we have this site. And we have each other. Remember Robyn=ex-premie=good Selena=ex-premie=good Brian=ex-premie=good Anon=ex-premie=good SNICKER! SNICKER! I couldn't resist. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 16:25:50 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: VP Subject: What I think, Robyn Message: Dear VP, Thanks, hon. I hope you will see soon, Anon's posts, subject Biting Nails and our back and forth there to know he has made amends. :) Now if we can just get Selena feeling better all would be good! Love you, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 00:20:02 (EST)
From: Peter Email: None To: Robyn Subject: anger, me and the inactive Message: Robyn-- During the rant. You made it very clear exactly what you were angry about and exactly what you wanted them to do differently. That's actually the formula that I learned in therapy for expressing any emotion: 1) I feel __________ (an emotion) 2) about __________ (a situation, occasion, habit...) 3) and I want (you to) ____________ It's amazing to me how much learning this has helped me. You've touched me too. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:13:07 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Ex-Premie Network - a proposal Message: First, I want to apologize to Anon and D@vid. Both were posting in the forum when I first started reading it, and both contributed much to my sanity at the time by sharing their experiences and thoughts with myself and others who stumbled in shell-shocked and looking for real answers to our own personal questions about Maharaji and the years we spent in DLM/EV. Both have contributed to the site and forum way beyond what I have. Both have driven me nuts, too, and both have been blasted by me for doing it. I felt better at the time, having unloaded my frustration, but I felt pretty bad afterwards. I still do, and to both of you I'm sorry. Although my latest words to you online don't reflect it, I have a great respect for both of you - enough that your opinions mattered enough to me that I felt hurt by your words of less than glowing support. When I started doing this I had no experience and very little confidence that I could do it. I was met with applause that was probably way out of proportion to what I had accomplished at the time - which was reformating the existing pages and making some content changes/deletions/additions. I took that encouragement as sincere, and it added to my self-esteem. When it later waned, my self-esteem suffered. I tried to address problems as they cropped up, but fell behind. Lots of holes appeared in the dike and I only had so many finger-hours to plug them with. The frustration has spilled over several times into anger expressed here at the criticism and lack of support. I don't do this for the praise, however, as much as it might look that way. People send me email thanking me that the site exists and I take it as meaning they are as grateful to find this stuff as I was. It's gratifying, but I certainly don't deserve the praise any more than anyone else who has contributed to their ability to benefit from the site/forum. Many people want to contribute back to the site. There are limits in place, though. This site, while not my own, is 'owned' by someone. They are personally responsible (legally) for it and have enabled me to take on that responsibility for keeping it going as webmaster. Where I wanted to be a conduit for the contributions of others, I've become a bottle-neck. I have only so much time to devote to the site and am reluctant to pass out access to anyone who wants it or would even use it better than me. People talk in the forum about what WE can do, but everything has to pass through ME as webmaster. The past 6 months have brought a large increase in the number of people posting to the forum. Many are sending me yet MORE content to put online. I'm already way behind in things I took offline to re-do and haven't replaced yet. While I don't believe in 'in your face' counters, especially where premies are concerned, I am a curious person. So I put a counter on the forum soon after the move. If there is NO increase in the number of people reading and posting within the next year, there will still be over 1.2 million messages read within that time. However there WILL be an increase, and it both excites and terrifies me. Jean-Michel posted something below that I want to explore and expand on. What we need is to not have ONE site with ONE webmaster. The web allows us to spread the work, the information, and the participation around to whoever wants to contribute. I think we're at a point here where we'll do it anyway, but I don't want to see other sites come about through frustration at my limitations or out of animosity. People who have offered to learn HTML and contribute to THE site can instead learn it and create other sites that we can all link to. Maharaji might someday be able to shut down one site - he'll never shut down a linked network of sites. People who set up sites can share their overflow of content with other sites - and still be able to maintain anonymity for their particular sources. The information WILL continue to stream in at an excelerated rate as more premies leave with what they know and what they can carry. I'm talking about a collaborative venture, rather than a competitive one. Geocities and other servers offer free webspace to anyone who wants to serve as an alternate conduit for the information. I want to go back to having fun as webmaster of this site, rather than being responsible for any and all information available on the web. I hate not being able to provide people with what they can actually provide themselves. RT did the card thing on his own, and others who want to do something that I can't do fast enough, or don't want to do on this site, can also participate directly this way. We don't need a leader - just ourselves. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:02:22 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Brian Subject: short note.... Message: As a very intermittant visitor I can only express that I appreciate your efforts here and support whatever you choose to do. From my vantage point it seems if other people have complaints fine let them try to do better. This is a website not some sort of mini cult unto itself after all. Everyone is free to come and go as they please and you are free to edit as you please. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:57:45 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Brian Subject: Ex-Premie Network - a proposal Message: Great post, Brian. I better go take a class! I don't even know how to download the archives (afraid to mess up our computer)! I'd love to see more sites. Maybe someone could post all the great poems to old tunes and rewritten devotional songs. I have (somewhere) old photos and that book I've posted a few things from about Shri Hans. I need to learn more computer skills! Anyway, thankyou Brian, you're entitled to vent frustration, and you've apologized so nicely! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:41:41 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Brian Subject: Ex-Premie Network - a proposal Message: Dear Brian, I am glad to see you processing all of this and find it intelligent and logical and heart felt. Thank you. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 19:53:36 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Brian Subject: 1.2 Million Messages!!!! Message: This figure is truly amazing. Almost incomprehensible. I think this is proof of the theory that perhaps thousands of people are reading the messages on the forum but AREN'T posting. I submit that many, many of them are premies, as I imagine very very few others would be at all interested. What is that, over 3,000 messages read PER DAY????? Even if every person read 15 messages, which may or may not be average, that's over 200 people visiting the forum EACH DAY. That doesn't even measure people who view the website and don't read messages on the forum!!! I see what you mean, Brian. The website is apparently having a much wider impact than we imagined. Even Mark, who apparently has lots of premie acquaintances in Malibu, says premies with the capability regularly read the forum messages. Very interesting. By the way, Brian. Thanks for all your work. The forum has really helped me too, and I left the cult 15 years ago! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 20:20:34 (EST)
From: RT Email: hmmmmm To: Brian the brain Subject: 18 months to weave a web Message: IF the Y2k scenario plays out -it looks like it will-we will have to have other www sites for ex-premie.com for as the traffic increases near 1999, YOU, Sir Brian, will so overwhelmed you will probably rejoin the Premies for some peace! :) 16 months could free a lot of P's from the donation nation should they choose to do so; let M retire or lay low due to global slowdown (good thing he has his own plane) and allow us all to learn some 19th century skills... Wood powered computers, tin can and string phones, farming, etc. Especially food. Again : please all read www.garynorth.com - Premies and Exs alike. We are all brothers in arms when in dire straights. RT oh hoh I feel a song coming on... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 20:28:33 (EST)
From: Anon Email: None To: Brian Subject: Ex-Premie Network - a proposal Message: Dear Brian, Thanks for the apology. Not necessary really at all but jolly decent. Anyway, I'll be nice from now on. I'm sorry too. I've been absolutely bloody rotten, a complete cad. I love you really. Oh and you've done much more than me! Don't be such a silly! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 01:01:04 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Brian Subject: Ex-Premie Network - a proposal Message: Yes your thoughts sound very solid. I thought it might get confusing if there were lots of different ex-premie sites saying varying things, which could discredit the validity of this site - however the way you put it sounds extremely democratic and a way for everyone to contribute. Personally I like for example everything being out in the open here on this forum, and that way rather than going off to another 'forum' to discuss issues it all hangs together. As can be seen recently, the threads that sometimes start out seeming non-related end up totally related to Maharaji and the cult, why we were in it, why we stayed in it, how we are getting out and staying well. To me it is a very beautiful process to be a part of and to watch it unfold. I am so glad you have come up with something that seems to suit everyone and that won't cause rivalry or alienation. What the hell are you doing driving cabs, Brian, it must be like me being a receptionist (o well I am a damn good one most of the time). Take care - sounds like you have resolved the 'depressed' feelings that made you go inside and think deeply. Or are there more changes to come in your brave new life? lots of love, Judex Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:38:48 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Everyone Subject: From Sackcloth to Hemp Message: All: Here is a link to an interesting story about a new 'spirit of capitalism,' and the ethical and moral dilemmas associated with it. Tibetan Monastery Discovers Rodeo Drive (And Visa Versa) -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:52:25 (EST)
From: RT Email: ommmmmmm To: Scott T. Subject: Budda Budda, Budda Buddha. Message: Thanks, that was great. That news is hi quality. I've printed it out for my sister's B'day today. Cool idea, 21st century well dressed renunciants...what will EV add to product line? Practise Pajamas! RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 19:10:37 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: RT Subject: fer RT Message: Dr. Ed Yardeni, chief economist for Duetsh Morgan Grenfell Bank in Germany, has a lot to say at his web site. www.yardeni.com/y2kbook.html). I will be gone for a week and a half so I wont be getting back to you on any response you have for that time. You are very creative. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 10:35:27 (EST)
From: Iola Email: None To: RT Subject: fer RT Message: I have sung all your songs with great enthusiasm to anyone who would listen--thank you. They help me get back to reality in a hurry. The Bored of the Yuga allows people in this trip to jump in where their involvement began. The humour in poetry or a song gets the message out fast. Now Kabir this--would you please write another one when you have time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 03:52:47 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: request for assistance Message: (not like I'm drowning, just a small help) I haven't read the replies yet to some recent posts I made. I felt I was out of line but decided to post anyway. Partly because I didn't really know why I was - maybe the responses will help, when I can face reading them. Its partly the thing I read today - don't avoid - do something, right or wrong (and then I guess you learn from it). I am taking some risks here and have felt hurt before and no doubt will again. One of the prompters for me is really realising Life is short - when am I going to 'go for it' if not know. My help thing is - at the same time as the 'angry/abusive' side of myself has surfaced I have been really hungry all the time and over-eating. I chewed nicotine gum for a long time after I gave up cigarettes. Recently I changed back to patches because of work (not wanting to chew). It could be that but suddenly my appetite has gone out of control. Does this have any connection with anything that anyone can help me with? It's like I have this insatiable emptiness (physcially). I started to feel a little stressed so I dealt with what was causing the problem. Emotionally I feel fine and balanced. I hope you don't think I'm unbalanced because I don't think I am but sometimes I reveal more than maybe I would if I were censoring myself more. I am really trying to heal but I don't want to overburden people here. I didn't go back to therapy but if the problems persist maybe I should and not post here so much. Any thoughts please? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 04:31:05 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Judex Subject: Life goes on ..... Message: My life has been totally centered on k & m, like yours, for so long. We now have to find new beacons, new motivations. I assume a lot of my anxiousness comes from some unconscious fear, created by the BS k philosophy, and many questions I don't have answer to ..... and I've repressed for so long. I assume it's like recovery after a divorce or leaving a job where you've been for very long. It's a natural process that takes time, years for some people I guess. I found therapy extremely helpful, specially when you try to think of the reasons why you've been involved with such BS at the first place, and for such a long period of time. And there are so many things you can't talk about, even with your best friends .... This web-site has been extremely helpful, talking with premies has been very helpful, new friends have been very helpful, going to the movie has been very helful, holidays, etc ... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 05:43:04 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Life goes on ..... Message: Thanks J-M. Vous etes tres gentil. (do you mind? I like to practice the little I know - such a beautiful language) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:35:34 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Judex Subject: two cents worth Message: Judex: Well, the fact is that rejecting M does not really provide any answers to the basic imponderables: What is the purpose of my life, who am I, what happens when I die, where the hell is the creator that put me here in 'this' human body to live 'this' life? Another fact is that there will never be any answers forthcoming to the above imponderables. I have found that more than anything I want to participate in life. That's why I try to be very active in my daugher's school PTA. It's simply a way for me to work with people to get things done, events at school that the kids love, etc. I think the answer to the imponderables above is provided in living life so that we are helping others. Being involved makes me feel good. It's not anything more complicated than that. So, my belief is that in helping others we are helped. Now, I doubt that will work for everyone, and in fact now that I have written that, I have no idea if that's what you were asking for? But anyway, I have noticed that you write some things that I strongly disagree with, and other things that I greatly enjoy. I have woken up at night in a fit of terror because I remembered something I wrote on the forum which I wish I had not written. But you know, it's no different from the feeling I used to get when I had a job where I gave a lot of presentations. And sometimes I would say things that were stupid or whatever and I would wake up in the middle of the night tormented by that. OR, back when I used to give satsang, I had the same experience. I would wake up feeling really stupid remembering something I had said the night before in satsang. Grin and bear it is about all I can suggest. We are fragile human beings. John Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:05:37 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: John and Judex Subject: two cents worth Message: John what you recommend is a good idea and I've been doing it somewhat. I only do volunteer hospice once a week (it's limited by the supervising org.) I also have been helping my elderly parents regularly, although can produce some stress. Judex, I also have been overeating. Gained 10 lbs, when I want to lose 30, now 40!It is a comforting thing to eat. I know I need to exercise more, alot more if I keep wanting to eat sweets! I'm scheduled to see a new counselor who does behavior therapy for people with compulsions. I also intend to talk about my recent exiting from some beliefs. Be gentle to yourself,Judex. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:35:42 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Judex Subject: request for assistance Message: Have you tried cheese? Actually you are displaying some signs of withdrawl symptoms from tobacco. Why not go back to the chewing gum? That's oral stimulation. I tried that nicotene chewing gum myself once but didn't like it. You could be addicted to it without realising it. I'm not the best person to give advice on such things because I can get addicted to just about anything. I was heavily addicted to a drug in the eighties and in the end, the only way I could get myself ogg it was by practising the nectar technique all the time. I don't expect other people to do this though. Hypnosis can be very useful in this regard. Some people are easily hypmotised and some aren't. A hypmotist only has to talk to me about the weather and I'm under. Meditation is very much like self hypnotism. I wouldn't do more than 5 minutes per technique though if you were trying the famous FOUR again after a layoff. There is another type of self therapy which I'm experimenting with. It is auto suggestion by listening to your own commands recorded on tape. You play it back quietly while you're asleep in bed. It can have dramatic results because it gets straight to the subconscious. I will email you more about this if you're interested. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 01:08:00 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Sir David petit suisse Subject: suggestions -S.David, hrh Message: Yes - that sounds interesting. I love emails as well,. so please email me! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:06:47 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Judex Subject: request for assistance Message: Judex: In the early '80s I used to eat a lot, and devolped a weight problem. It may have been connected with that letter from BM, or something else. Anyway, I started this program where I had to wash all my own dishes and I began to eat less, at least for awhile. Then I started an intense long term exercise program, with running and biking, and my appetite increased. So now I exercise all the time and still gain weight; and I still have to wash all my own dishes. It must me el nino. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:41:52 (EST)
From: RT Email: -- To: Scott T, et al. Subject: The Ultimate Meal Message: Hi Scott and all, The purest, vegan, kosher superfood blender powder, 100% organic is The Ultimate Meal. You can actually skip a meal. It's $39 a lb. per month...call 1-800-the-meal for booklet. Only in stores or direct. I phoned the owner and he -Sam- said he was approached by 3 MLM companies who would have jacked up the price to $135 a container ! Contains 18 ingredients -raw, sprouted, plant foods - that will raise your eyebrows. Weight loss? Probably. Now in it's 10th evolution-keeps getting better. Good to know. RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 01:15:11 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: assistance request - Scott Message: I've been wanting to ask about the intense exercise regime. As one gets more towards the 'twilight' years (the dawn of eternity?) does it help to get fit and stay fit? I read about 'muscle wasting' in the 50's. I am in my 40's and have experienced some of the physical changes - I know to expect more and it's a bit scary. I see many fit people over 40 - I just have to ask, is it worth it? Do you feel better about yourself/get lots of looks in the street/more appetite for life (btw - bicycling in wales - that is a rather mountainous country isn't it? I once thought of doing it somewhere flat - actually a walking tour would probably do me). Anyway - thanks for the kind suggestions. Also, you completely changed my 'picture' of you when you told of your farming childhood. This Forum is great for changing pre-conceptions. Straight away I pictured you as blond ,with freckles, kind of burly....god the mind is a crazy machine! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 11:29:39 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Judex Subject: assistance request - Scott Message: Judex: You've got the 'blonde with freckles' right. My mother is a redhead, so I inherited that. She's almost one big freckle. Burly... I don't know if someone 5 foot 9 can be burly. I was a halfback, not a lineman, in gradeschool. In HS I went out for track and cross country, so I've been hot-footing it for a long time. I don't expect the mountains in Wales to be nearly as challenging as the Coast Range or the Cascades in Oregon. But, I don't think there are many flat rides on a bike, unless it's on Delmarva (the Delaware, Maryland, Virginia penninsula). Even Iowa can have pretty daunting hills, especially in the sothern part of the state. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 16:05:39 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Scott T. Subject: assistance request - Scott Message: Dear Scott, New Jersey is pretty flat too. Use to bike all around and hardly even sweat. Good in snow too. The car could spin and what was the harm, just continue on my way, in PA there is always this hill or that cliff to contend with when the car goes out of control! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:30:52 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Judex Subject: request for assistance Message: Dear David and Judex, David, I'd be very interested in being included on that info list for sending messages directly to the subconscience. Judex, I am feeling a bit sad today myself over upsetting Selena and so not so confident about helping you or anyone else at the moment but I want you to know that I think you are doing wonderful, heartfelt, honest work on yourself and I can identify with that and wish you strength and offer my support. Robyn I like to feel like I am of help to people and don't feel good at all about offending Selena. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 17:52:01 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net To: Robyn Subject: request for assistance Message: Once in a rather generous mood I told someone they reminded me of Lady Ada Lovelace. They wrote back about not liking nicknames made out of their name and resented that I had compared them to a porn star, demanding an apology. I wrote back that Lady Lovelace was known for developing the first computer and that it was a compliment so no apology was needed. She wrote back that her feelings had been hurt so still wanted an apology. I wrote back and said if your mind distorts a compliment into an insult, that is your responsibility. I didn't do something to harm you. She wrote back and said: 'that's right, blame the victim!' I feel this has a good deal to do with forming healthy boundaries. Also this has to do with several posts I have read today, so it isn't so specific to you. Stephen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 18:14:48 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Stephen Harris Subject: request for assistance Message: Dear Stephen, I am not clear on this, is this a story of you having boundaries or the woman not or having to strong ones? Sorry but as Paul said this doesn't mean I'm stupid, right, just a novice in working with my boundaries. Thanks for your help, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 20:56:07 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net To: Robyn Subject: request for assistance Message: Golly Zooks!! You mean you want me to explain I bet. Well I don't really step on any toes, but there is bound to be somebody who disagrees with me. I no longer want other people to tell me who I am or how I should think. There is a balance to be struck for sure. There are some people who give you power or them that you don't want. Some of these people will take offense or become hurt. They play the 'wounded me' in order to get you to feel sorry for them. The purpose behind this is to manipulate guilt feelings, so that you do not feel free to express yourself in what you see as healthy boundaries that you have established for yourself. Thus your behavior becomes aligned with their agenda. For some people this behavior becomes an automatic way of relating to people. They get rewarded every time you are untrue to yourself and give an apology when you don't feel you have done anything wrong. Of course, sometimes we have done things wrong. This is a forum where most people have given over their power to Gumaraji at one point or another. I think it is right to blame G for being a bad guy. At the same time I think there are a lot of people who do not join cults. I think they have more resistance to giving over their power to conduct their lives as they see fit. That is why I think it is more probable to see instances of inappropriate boundaries on this forum. I think the idea that as adults we have a lot of influence over other adults is overdone. Usually, the person influenced wants it that way, for one reason or another, even out of habit. I don't think there is one rule which handles all situations. There may be some different opinions; that is Ok with me. I am practicing not having to be right all the time. Regards, Stephen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 21:27:17 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Stephen Harris Subject: request for assistance Message: Dear Stephen, Thanks, I would welcome anyone's input here. That is a nice thing about the forum, all the different personalities and view points. I am going to copy/paste and print this. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 22:37:32 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net To: Robyn Subject: request for assistance Message: So to tell you more of that story. A couple of weeks later I found out that 'Lady Ada' had gone to Toronto to meet this guy she had fallen in love with over the newsgroup. It turned out that she saw him kissing her best friend who had gone with her. She was furious. She wrote that note to me because I had a friendly conversation going on with her ex best friend and she didn't like it. So that it what I mean about letting other people influence your thinking with emotional threats when you don't feel guilty or for a minor infraction. One seldom knows the true motives for why people do quirky emotional things. So I guess the moral of my story is that healthy boundaries help prevent being jostled emotionally by other people's projections. I wound up writing an awful lot about this...next time you will probably just give me a knowing nod and avoid the deluge of words :-). Stephen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 02:05:41 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Stephen Harris Subject: boundaries - Robyn Message: Yes I guess the other thing that comes to mind for me also, like what Stephen is saying is that 'it's not always about you'. I'm learning that very recently here on the Forum better than I ever have. eg a child, when they hear their parents fight, think it's because of them. I don't know the psychological reason. Often I think I am the most important one here, and what I post is going to shatter someone, or really affect people. For example, when I posted to Scott recently questioning his picture of his childhood, I was sure he was going to berate me for stepping on his boundaries (I probably was - he was just mature enough to cope with it) I also sometimes 'push the button' - another habit left over from childhood (test their limits - see how far you can push them before they react = find out how much anger they are harbouring inside = deflect it or defuse it = self protection) I also posted something really personal about my ex and I knew it was too personal and no-one would want to know anyway. I just needed to get it out; I guess it was selfish. But in any case none of this caused the world to explode; even though I did have a kind of dread thing about having posted this stuff. What other people do with what you say is always to do with them, not to do with you, it is tempting to say but I don't know if that's true. However, why you are wounded is definitely to do with you, as you seem quite aware and it is good you are searching inside as to what has triggered it (your aching wound). I hope this doesn't exasperate what you are feeling: but it is good to get it out in the open. Love to you, dear Robyn. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 09:40:37 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Judex Subject: exes Message: Dear Judex - I read your post about your ex and I didn't think it was inappropriate or too personal. I am sure we could start a whole thread here about exes (husbands, wives, and significant others). It would probably get so long that Gerry would have to set up another list-serv. I think that many people here has ex-partners who they were involved with while they were with Maharaji - thus the issue gets very tangled. And for a lot of people Maharaji is like an ex-partner, too. Leaving M and K seems to have many similarities to getting a divorce. Take care, Judex, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 16:13:52 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Judex Subject: boundaries - Robyn Message: Dear Judex, Thanks again. You have been insightful and very helpful to me here and in case you hadn't noticed I pour my deepest, well most of them, emotions out here and I have always gotten back good feed back, support and caring. I do think you are self centered in a self critical sense because you berate yourslef for things we all do here. That is why this is such a great place! There are so many differnt view points and areas of expertise we all benifit so much when we post our problems and our joys. I am so glad you are learning to trust yourself and are seeing how you can be strong and how good that feels. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 23:05:33 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Judex Subject: Judex, get baggy pajamas Message: Judex, It think it's kind of interesting that you think you are the most important person here, because I think I am the LEAST important. I have gotten the last word in on six threads here and no one responded. And I never received knowledge so I am really lame. Just kidding. You know I am. :-) Forget overeating as a problem. Just get some baggy pajamas. Your cat will still love you. No really, I have the same problem. I never looked at it as a problem before, because I love food. It's a sensual pleasure of life and I am really into all of those. When I had a wicked metabolism, everything melted off. As I approach my mid thirties, things aren't cooperating in that same way. I can exercise everyday and it just doesn't do a whole lot of good. I am going to have to cut back on eating. This is sort of depressing because I hate depriving myself. As you said, it's a short life. On the other hand, exercise makes me feel really good. It helps my mental well being. It helps me sleep. It keeps me toned and keeps me from muscle loss and bone loss, etc. If I can eat less and lose some weight, then I will be gratified in other ways, I am sure. So I'm going to just do it, even though it won't be fun at first. Maybe we can encourage one another. If you find something other than exercise and diet that work, let me in on the secret. I sometimes have a cup of decaff. coffee or tea which fills me up. Chewing ice is good, too. I think if I smoked I would be thin, but it is a little hard to do that with asthma. Besides that I hate cigarette smoke and it's very bad for you. I do enjoy an occasional cigar, though. They are great for an oral fixation fix and I don't have to inhale. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 01:19:45 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: VP and his baggy pajamas Message: Dear VP - You wrote I have gotten the last word in on six threads here and no one responded. I noticed that. That's what you get for going on vacation. Everyone on the forum is probably just unconciously punishing you for abandoning them. I think they'll warm up to you again pretty soon :) VP (or Jude), PLEASE do not even think about starting to smoke cigarettes to lose weight. I hope you were kidding. I smoked for ten years - about a pack or pack and a half a day. I lost ten pounds when I started and gained 10 pounds when I quit. Believe me, not smoking is worth having those 10 extra pounds. Smoking became the biggest hassle in the end because it is so socially unacceptable. I could also tell that it was starting to affect my health. Smoking kills you in a slow, disgusting, and horrible way (emphysema, throat and lung cancer, etc). Besides, there are a lot of overweight people that smoke - you could end up with TWO bad habits. OK, end of lecture. Take care, VP. Katie P.S. After I quit, my sister quit after smoking for twenty years (she started when she was 13). It can be done, but I would never want to go through the quitting process again either! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 01:37:32 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: VP and his baggy pajamas Message: Katie, you night owl, No, I would never smoke cigarettes. They gross me out! I can't even eat in public if someone lights up. I know people here smoke and I don't want to offend anyone, but that is how it makes me feel, sick. Also, smoke sometimes triggers an asthma attack if the smoke gets too thick. That is bad news for me. I was just saying if I DID smoke I would be thinner. I know plenty of people who have oral fixations who smoke and are thinner because they do that instead of eating. I couldn't and wouldn't do that to lose weight. YUCK!! I do enjoy an occasional cigar and that is no lie. (They are far stronger than cigarettes and some people find them offensive, but I don't. Probably because my Dad smoked these and a pipe while I was growing up. Not in the house, mind you) I know they are supposed to be really risky as far as certain cancers go, but when I say occasional I mean once in a blue moon. I liked it before it was a rage, though. Thanks for being so concerned, Katie :-) Jude, I agree with Katie. Don't smoke to lose weight. I didn't mean to imply that you should. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 01:50:33 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Katie the night owl Message: Katie, I forgot to mention above that I like getting the last word in. It's kind of fun! I think part of it may be geography, too. I don't care if no one responds. Mirabai and I will just go for a drink together-haha! Going to bed. It's late. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 11:52:46 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: Smokin' VP Message: I do want to clarify something about my above rant on cigarette smoking. I DO NOT want to offend any smokers here. If you come over to my house, I might make you smoke outside, but I won't give you any grief about it. I have been there; it was really hard to quit; and I just don't want anyone else to start and have to go through what I did to quit. Also, I do know people who started smoking to lose weight and ended up with BOTH problems: addicted to nicotine and no weight loss. BTW, both my sister and I used the nicotine patches. My sister had smoked since she was 13! They worked when nothing else had (and we had both tried a lot of other things). We kept the 10 pounds off as long as we were on the patches, but we gained it after we went off the patch. So I don't view the patch as a long-term weight loss solution either. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 16:01:50 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Stephen Harris Subject: request for assistance Message: Dear Stephen, You may not feel like you know me very well, but by god that is changing in these last two days, eh? :) I am a talker, a story teller, a listener and a confidant so have at it, honey and certainly if I ask don't hesitate! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 23:20:14 (EST)
From: Peter Email: None To: Stephen Harris Subject: practicing too Message: Good post, Stephen. I like the whole thing, but I especially can relate to the part about practicing not having to be right all the time--I'm practicing too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 01:55:05 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Stephen Harris Subject: boundaries - Stephen Message: Stephen good points. I am still highly attached to saying sorry all the time. I mean after all these years I still say sorry to someone when they bump into me at the supermarket. And I notice myself doing it. I am always apologizing for other people. This kind of reaction makes me neurotic. The boundary thing is very important for me. I feel it is connected to self esteem and awareness, because had I the self esteem and the wit I would simply say, oh, there you are treading on my boundaries! and give them a nice smile. God, I really want to develope my 'interactive intelligence'. You, me. The I and the Not I. You're okay, Im okay. It's so easy to read about! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 16:20:45 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Judex Subject: boundaries - Judex Message: Dear Judex, I, too, use to apologize when others bumped into me and it took some conscience work to stop but it has been so long now I'd forgotten about it until I read your post. So know there is hope! I don't know how old you are but you live each day anyway so you might as well be working toward something, right! Good luck to you and please share with us, your journey as long as it feels safe and good to you to do so. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 01:26:05 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Robyn Subject: to Robyn Message: Robyn I will go back and read that post but personally I found nothing offensive in what you said. I remember Selena mentioning she thought you were 'acting out'- so what? What amazed me about your vent was how harmless it was. You really don't know the meaning of the word bitch! It was not nasty in any sense of the word. Maybe you are blaming yourself for something you shouldn't be. To me what you are doing is trying new things and taking some steps. So what if you fall down - isnt that how it happens for everyone? Look, this is my own personal theory, don't give it too much credibility but I often think of where people might be stuck in their development eg you mentioned separating from your parents (or wanting to) at age 9. So think of a 9 year old and where they are at, and try and be kind to yourself. What fears did your kids have at that age? What needs? That's just one idea that may help - I hope it doesn't hinder anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 16:27:52 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Judex Subject: to Robyn Message: Dear Judex, I am begining to worship you, Ha! Thanks again. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 23:55:35 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Brian, D@vid, Anon, all Subject: Why are we here, anyway? Message: I'm addressing this primarily to Brian, D@vid, and Anon, but also to all the other ex-premies who participate in this web site and forum. I haven't talked to Brian about this before posting it, so this is entirely my contribution. I've been reading the arguments about the web site below, and I do have a problem with them. Here's why: The reason I post on the forum and contribute to the web site (as many of you know) is because a premie friend of mine committed suicide. I hope, through my participation, to help prevent other events like that in the future. To this end, I try and be supportive of other people on the forum, especially new people (both on the forum and via e-mail), I help Brian with the web site, and I do things like copying and sending out videos to people and so forth. Of course, I have gained a lot personally from my own participation in the forum, for which I thank the other people who participate there but I had largely discarded the baggage from my involvement with Maharaji before I arrived here. I have mostly benefitted from our discussions about other things such abuse, addiction, anger, relationships, etc.. It grieves me to see Brian, D@vid, and Anon in disagreement about the content and future of the web site. Brian knows a lot about how I feel because we talk on the phone about this quite a bit. Anon and D@vid probably do not. First, I am supposed to be Brian's assistant webmaster. When D@vid first proposed turning over the site to Brian, Brian and I discussed being 'co-webmasters'. In my opinion, this was not a good idea. I feel that ONE person should be in charge of the site, and should be, as Brian has said, a benevolent dictator. I am not in favor of rule by committee - even a committee of two - it takes forever, and it is impossible to get anything done (sorry Scott, I know you probably have some examples to the contrary, but this has been my experience). Anon, I know you have a LOT to contribute to the web site. I do have to agree with Brian though, in that it was a little scary to me when you took the archive digests off the site. When I first began reading the site, the 'ashram' archive digest and the Bob Mishler interview were the two things that really made me feel like Maharaji's world was NOT OK. Before that I had sort of thought 'well, it's not for me, but it's OK for other people.' When the archive digests disappeared, I was upset because I'd recommended them to so many people. I personally would love to see you contribute more to the site, but I am not sure if you would want to reliquish control of material you contribute. For example, it might be edited, etc. by other people - just as if you had contributed it to a magazine. Brian has done this with things I contributed, and thus I prefer to remain a totally anonymous author. I hope you can see clear to feeling the same way, because I think your contribution to the site could be great. I am willing and would like to work with you on some contributions (if it meets with Brian's approval.) D@vid - I have a few problems with you putting your former site back on line (you may agree or disagree with these!) First of all, I don't have a good feeling about there being two sets of Journeys and White Page entries, PLUS pages to update them, on the web. I think this could end up being really confusing - the two sites could end up with radically varying sets of White Pages entries, for one thing. For another, some of the e-mail addresses, etc. on the white page entries, and on the Journeys have been changed since the sites changed hands. I wish that you would only put those parts of your site on line that don't mirror Brian's completely. As I said, you may not agree with this, but I think that what I've suggested would further what I hope is our common goal. I agree that the current site could and should have more new pages (or should have some of D@vid's OLD pages - such as the knowledge pictures), and I am willing to work with any of the three of you this summer to put these new pages on Brian's site. I don't feel as strongly about the need for new pages as D@vid and/or Anon do, but I'd be happy to work on them. As I said earlier, Brian is the benevolent dictator here, so he'd have final approval and/or editing power of anything that went on the site. I would hope that D@vid and Anon can accept this, and cooperate. Well, as we say on the forum, that's my two cents worth. I also want to remind everyone once again of why we are here, and what is the purpose of this site. I am willing to do a lot to further that purpose, but if that purpose becomes secondary to some kind of power struggle, then I will prefer to bow out and leave y'all to it. Regards from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:29:21 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Katie Subject: Why are we here, anyway? Message: As you read this, please keep in mind. I am speaking as someone who has had her life basically saved because of this site. Or at least being saved from one of the deepest darkest depressions in a history of famous ones. That's where I am coming from. That is why my disappointment is so acute. I am very disappointed in the fights between the techies. I am also both guilty and disappointed at the subjective way some people get defended for pretty obnoxious behavior while others get slammed for innocent expression as in Keith and anon, etc. And guilty because when the defense was for me I gladly accepted it. I guess this is a normal phase in my growth and it may be the thing that propels me to the next step, beyond the forum. Good. I am all for growth. And if not beyond forum what? I beocme the next webmaster? ONLY if I get to be called a webmistress dammit! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:54:22 (EST)
From: david f. Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com To: Selena Subject: Why are we here, anyway? Message: Katie and Selena, thanks for your thoughtful posts. I am fairly new to the forum (i'm not the david of katie's earlier message), and first came here because recently I had been wondering, what ever happened to the fat boy guru? So, after my initial curiousity, why am I still here? I have found it interesting to hear about others' experience with life after BM and also interesting to see what other people have found useful in their journeys. I also like it that premies can visit here, (post or not) and begin to dialog with those of us that have questioned M's authority and have gone on to other things in our lives. I know that the net is a barrier-free environment, but I personally don't like to see people getting slammed or belittled here. I didn't like it when I was a premie, and as an ex, I don't see what use it serves, especially when directed at people who may just be starting to question M's trip and false authority. As with any community or individual, every once in a while its good to stop and check one's moral/spiritual compass, and see if perhaps the direction we're taking needs some fine-tuning. Thanks for raising the question. best wishes to all, david f. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 02:36:19 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: david f. Subject: Why are we here, anyway? Message: Thank you David It seems you are the only one who 'got it' regarding my complaints about the stupid use of swearing and the rather unncecessary anger about some basic input regarding a web site. If I reacted that strongly about every criticism I got over my web site I'd lose my job for god's sake. And Robyn's bullshit acting out swearing is a pain in the ass after awhile. That dear folks is my opinion. Which apparrently I am not all that welcome to. So very sorry. Jim whereever you are I am joining you. Cheerleaders were never my favorite personality types. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 05:47:30 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Selena Subject: white spaces - to Selena Message: Dear Selena I guess the white spaces are just as valuable as the words, as someone said about a well-written book. I will miss you if you go away but I know you are doing really well for yourself and that is what matters. I have gained a lot from reading your posts. For one thing, I found I liked you - yet at first I thought - oh she is one of those women I would be really intimidated by (the sort who bypass me with barely a glance). So it has been great being able to hear some of your story and your opinions. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 08:53:23 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Selena Subject: Why are we here, anyway? Message: Dear Selena, I hope you see my other posts to you, you are more than welcome to your opinion and also to voice it here. I think my stint at swearing, joking or not is over. Sorry it offended you, I wish you said something when it was all a game and not after I really did it in anger. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:33:00 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Selena Subject: Why are we here, anyway? Message: 1. To speak openly and freely. Not sorry to see you go Lady Selena. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 05:56:05 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Katie Subject: Why are we here, anyway? Message: I haven't read all the controversies regarding all this. My feeling is that it's not a new issue, and that there will ALWAYS be a lot of controversies, whoever the webmaster is/are, whatever committee there is, whatever policy is defined, it's something normal I guess. If some people (like me maybe) have materials we'd like to be available on the Internet, why don't we have our own web-site ? It's not a big deal to have some pages on a provider, and if the materials are good (controversial or not), this web site would provide a link I'm sure. This site will very likely grow a lot in the future, but won't be able to host EVERY new material premies/exes might provide, even though some of these materials might be EXTREMELY helpful for some people. Like for instance all these documents about radhasoami, hans yog prakash: I like them and they have been very helpful for me. If Brian decides he doesn't want any of this on the site, not speaking of some materials I would translate, I wouldn't have any problem puting this on my own web site. I'm sure Brian would like that idea .... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 06:38:18 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Katie Subject: responsibilities Message: Some people here have been taking responsibilities. Nobody said that they are the only one who should. Nobody said everything regarding m's cult should happen here only. This web-site is great, and I will definitely keep contributing here. But I'm sure I would appreciate other web sites. Why would we want to have only one voice ? Do we still need to be under someone's authority ? Whose ? ............... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 08:07:06 (EST)
From: Deneb Email: None To: Katie and all Subject: responsibility for ????????? Message: Ah yes, that word responsibility. So WHO IS responsible for any effects caused the website and forum? No doubt lots of premies have brought up the issues relating to the possible harm to M's work, and since this site is set up by people who have become convinced that M. is a fraud, this argument naturally carries little weight. However, there is another side. Katie, you say that you began posting here because of someone committing suicide, which you feel was attributable to his involvement with M. Also Jim claims a suicided friend as a motivation for his opposition to M. Apparently, both these people suicided in a state of DOUBTING of M. If this was indeed the case, then this website and forum, which has as a central goal the raising and encouraging of doubts about M, could one day be accused of triggering someone's suicide,utilising similar arguments to those used by yourselves. In such an event, who here would claim responsibility for such a tragedy? Does Brian wear it? Katie? Jim? MrEX? Jean-Michel? Maybe the one who spreads the most rumours? bb , you'd romp home! By the way, in case some of you may think I post here because I myself am on the doubting trail, well,sorry to dissappoint you, but I'm not. I have a very rich life, on every level, and I'm increasingly grateful to M. for assisting me with that. Regards to all, Deneb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:15:49 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Deneb Subject: responsibility for ????????? Message: Deneb: Wow, you're suggesting our message might cause premies to commit suicide? But why? Why couldn't they simply go to a video and have their confusion taken away? I have told nothing but the truth (I think) about my own experience with the guru. If being told the truth is so disturbing to a premie that they go and commit suicide, then who is to blame? Me, for telling the truth? Yeah, right!!! Face it Deneb, you just want us to shut up and go away. Because we are telling the truth, and the truth does hurt. We are talking about stuff that the guru does not allow to be talked about. We are now listening objectively to what the guru says. We are no longer listening with the minds of worshipful, brainless, glassy eyed zombies. I am convinced the former lord of the universe is an incompetent spiritual leader, and I am very interested in making sure that our side of the story is broadcast to the world. John Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:27:58 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Deneb Subject: responsibility for ????????? Message: I think you have a very special sense of humor! Having doubts, specially regarding Mr Prempal Rawat is something very healthy that most premies have IMHO. Being able to have anything beside 'Satsang', specially testimonies from people who have been through the same doubts, who left, who think the whole trip is BS and very obnoxious for mankind, is EXTREMELY helpful (at least some people think so). Granted the fact that more than 90% of the people who came to m & k left the trip, some secial help in this process HAS to be considered helpful. Leaving this cult is a painful process indeed. Mr Rawat NEVER took any responsibility helping people wanting to leave him. NEVER! That's why I think that taking care of such a web-site is a responsibility. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:26:02 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Deneb Subject: Offensive Comment Message: Look Deneb, you are free to believe whatever you want to. The forum has never attempted to tell premies that they can't do that. But, as I am sure you are aware, the vast majority of people who receive knowledge drop out of the BM cult at some point, and it can be traumatic. I believe this forum and website provides support, support that they won't usually get from premies, even from those who claim to be their friends. As to the supposed 'harm' that could be done, you state: However, there is another side. Katie, you say that you began posting here because of someone committing suicide, which you feel was attributable to his involvement with M. Also Jim claims a suicided friend as a motivation for his opposition to M. Apparently, both these people suicided in a state of DOUBTING of M. Boy, you really had to dig to find that, didn't you? Must say, you may have won an aware for specious arguments. First, I don't know where you get this apparent so-called fact. Certainly you have no idea why these people committed suicide. According to Jim, who knew his friend Dave very well, Dave was an ashram premie who killed himself because he felt that he couldn't control his evil mind and desires, NOT because he doubted BM. And who, pray tell, told Dave that his mind and desires were evil??? Who did that???? Perhaps if Dave had doubted BM's stupid, medieval hindu trip, he might be alive today. Frankly, I find you comment about this patently offensive. I have no idea whether you are experiencing doubts yourself, but I do find it interesting that you have read this forum long enough, and have at least that much interest, to know what the various posters have been saying over a period of time. Me thinks thou dost protest too much? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 11:31:53 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Katie Subject: Why are we here, anyway? Message: Hello everyone. I lurked for 6 months before I posted because 1) I was afraid to say anything that might generate a negative response, but worse yet, 2) I was afraid to say what I thought about Maharaji (fear of eternal damnation). I am really grateful for this site because it has allowed me to see through the programming and communicate with you who have been there and done that. With great appreciation for you all, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 11:37:07 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: eb Subject: Why are we here, anyway? Message: Dear eb, I just thought I'd thank you for the tape, I got it yesterday along with mail from 2 other ex's which was FUN! Thanks. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 16:11:09 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Why are we here, anyway? Message: You are most welcome! I had fun sending it. Love, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 11:37:13 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Katie Subject: My thoughts..... Message: I love to use the word thoughts.....way back when it was an evil concept...oh but weren't concepts evil too? Never mind...ooops that was evil too. When I first left in 1979 there was no Internet. I went to the library. I checked out every cult book I could find. I used them much like this site could be used. I wrote one letter to a woman in White Plains New York I thought could help. Sadly, I found out later, that letter fell behind a desk for months. By that time I was involved with my ex husband in an dysfunctional attempt to get back to my old world without really going back. I attended a few programs with him, but never again believed anything but that the Guru was evil. I think if I could have found a site like this I would have had a smoother transition and likely would have been able to stand on my own two feet MUCH sooner. I am not sure what all the fighting is about. The site itself seems great to me. Some of the posts are weird but there is the same problem all over the net. It is truly a forum for all and there will always be posts from wackos...even true on the parent's sites I like. I had not visited the site for 6 months. I thought it was incredibly improved when I found it. I think you are all doing a good job. And as far as a benevolent dictatorship....if you are the one doing all the work dictate away. You are doing a great job. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 11:45:32 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: G's mom Subject: My thoughts..... Message: Dear G's mom, I am afraid I am the wacko to whom you refer. I'd like it if you read other things I've written as I honestly do not feel that I am. That post was so out of character for me and was on the tail end of a recent series of playing with swearing. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 11:52:54 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Robyn Subject: you are not the wacko.... Message: Really! I haven't read your posts I sort of jump around a lot. I was really referring to any site is going to get off the wall posts. G's mom Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:09:06 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: G's mom Subject: you are not the wacko.... Message: Dear G's mom, Thanks Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 21:59:28 (EST)
From: RT ALERT! Email: no To: Everyone!!!! Subject: The next 17 months... Message: ...may be our last communications...Here are 3 paragraphs from www.garynorth.com. Please bookmark this public service site and read it often, it has dozens of documents and is growing fast. This will certainly affect the Whirled of Knowledge. It may be causing the seeming slowdown of the K. programs,(speculation) or cause a major overhaul in another way. . Again, this is very serious data. Please bookmark. No need to respond-see for yourself, oh surfer! RT, alert and concerned. Gary North's Y2K Links and Forums The Year 2000 Problem: The Year the Earth Stands Still We've got a problem. It may be the biggest problem that the modern world has ever faced. I think it is. At 12 midnight on January 1, 2000 (a Saturday morning), most of the world's mainframe computers will either shut down or begin spewing out bad data. Most of the world's desktop computers will also start spewing out bad data. Tens of millions -- possibly hundreds of millions -- of pre-programmed computer chips will begin to shut down the systems they automatically control. This will create a nightmare for every area of life, in every region of the industrialized world. It's called the year 2000 problem. It's also called the millennium bug, y2k, and (misspelled), the millenium time bomb. Millennium or millenium: it doesn't matter how we spell it; this bomb isn't going away. Think of what happens if the following areas go down and stay down for months or even years: banks, railroads, public utilities, telephone lines, military communications, and financial markets. What about Social Security and Medicare? If Social Security and Medicare go down, it will affect millions of people. Yet both programs are at risk. +++++ NOW go to www.garynorth.com +++ Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 23:26:31 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: RT ALERT! Subject: The 2000 syndrome. Message: RT: And to think... all of this because we assume a 19 instead of a 20. How did society ever manage when we went from an 18 to a 19 on Jan. 1, 1900? Computer hardware has about a two year turnaround. I've had my present computer, which is 2,000 compliant, since 1996 and I don't expect to have it in 2000. I don't purport to know what's going on with mainframes, but there just aren't that many mainframes still around. George Mason uses a number of these large servers, which are essentially multi-processor PCs. The New York City school districts have almost all switched over to a 2,000 compliant system called ATS. Almost no one thinks that many systems will be down for longer than a few hours, or at most days, not even the most rabid alarmists. Just settle down and think about it. Scott T. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 23:44:22 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Some real excitement Message: RT: A 'super cell' just passed through here this afternoon around 5:00 PM. Most thunderstorms have a sort of bluish tinge. When you look outside and see the eerie green color alarm bells start to go off in your head. I've only seen it once before, in my car in the midst of a super cell about two years ago. A tornado touched down about 200 feet away. After it passed the place was like a war zone, and we were without power for 48 hours. This time I looked out the window and saw the same greenish color, with these cyclic winds blowing sheets of rain UP towards me, and this sound like a train. I turned around and ran out of the apartment using both hands and all my weight to get the door closed (I left the windows open a tad). Some of my neighbors had also gone out into the hall. We figured it might be a bit safer on the 14th floor. At any rate it had passed within about 5 minutes and we only lost power for about 30 seconds. Sort of a false alarm, but you never know. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:03:35 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Tornadoes are scary! Message: Hi Scott, As you know, my home is where you are living now, and I am now living smack on one end of 'tornado alley'. I had never even HEARD of tornado sirens before we moved here. The first time I heard one I freaked out because I thought it was a civil defense siren (lots of those in DC). I am terrified of tornadoes too. Anyway, because of El Nino, tornado alley has moved quite far to the east this year. As you know, Georgia and Florida are getting hammered, yet here we have had only one tornado alert so far this summer. It was at five o'clock in the morning, which is a hard time to get up and go down to the basement. The 'super cell' (have never heard of one of those) sounds very scary. Glad you didn't get sent to OZ! (And I ain't talkin' Australia!) Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:20:41 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Katie Subject: Tornadoes are scary! Message: Yes, I grew up in Iowa and we had LOTS of tornado scares and a few close calls. It's weird because the sky does turn the weirdest colors before and during a tornado. One went near our house when I was about 5. I remember my dad making us stay in the basement until the sirens were quiet. But, being in an earthquake is more intense IMHO. First of all, there is NO warning whatsoever. It just starts. In the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake, I was on the 29th floor of an office building. I was sure the building would crumble and be unable to withstand the intense movement of the earth (UP AND DOWN) as it went on and on.. Then, the building exaggerated the movement and continued swaying for about another 10 minutes. The skyscapers are designed to sway with the earthquake to help them hold together. All the pictures came off the walls, and books off the shelves, etc. When I crawled out from under my desk, we had to walk out the 29 floors. Oops. I guess this is 'off topic' isn't it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:28:28 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: Tornadoes are scary! Message: Joe: Oops. I guess this is 'off topic' isn't it? Interesting though. The building I'm in would probably crumble like a stack of cards. Scary thought. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:34:44 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Tornadoes are scary! Message: Fortunately, you are unlikely to have an earthquake where you are! But then those tornadoes are something else. I think it's a different kind of strength that's needed. My house was built in 1886 and so it even survived the 1906 earthquake, which is estimated to have been an 8.5! So, I hope that's a good sign! California has such tough building codes that most of the stuff built in the past 25 years at least is likely to hold up pretty well. I put a two-story addition on my house last year and it required 3 separate structural engineering inspections to ensure that it met the earthquake building codes. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 00:50:29 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: JW Subject: Earthquakes are scary. Message: We had little earthquakes when I lived in Japan. But nothing major. They were still quite creepy - feeling the earth shake under your feet is really scary. In Japan they say they are living on the back of a dragon, and that is really what it feels like. We live near the New Madrid Fault, and there is supposed to be another earthquake there at some time (no one knows when, of course). Of course, NONE of the buildings in the Midwest have been built to withstand earthquakes, so when it comes, everything's gonna fall down like Scott said. (Last time, the New Madrid quake rang church bells in Boston.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 17:13:58 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: More Storms. Message: Hi: There is a line of new violent thunderstorms due to hit the area in about 20 minutes. The storms will continue on and off until about 10:00 PM. I may check back in if there's a break but I could also 'disappear' for awhile, if the 'tricity goes out. Mother Nature! -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 22:27:26 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: Katie Subject: Katie:Three Continents Message: Katie, I've been meaning to send you a thankyou for the book. I've begun reading it. I'll pass it on when I'm done, to any taker who asks. Thankyou! By the way, although I've never lived near severe frequent storms, I am thrilled by the power of them. I'm not sure I'd hide from a tornado! Love thunder storms, too. We've had a few serious wind storms in Portland, one in 1964 and one a few years ago. .Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 09:16:19 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: carol Subject: Katie:Three Continents Message: Hi Carol - Glad you got the book - let us know what you think when you are done (Gerry, you too.) I used to be really afraid of thunderstorms as a child - I was afraid of getting struck by lightning (I read a lot of science books before I was old enough to really understand them, thus I had a lot of very strange fears. I used to worry about the sun blowing up or burning out, which IS going to happen, but not for a real long time. I couldn't understand the time scale on this.) I am not afraid of thunderstorms anymore though, except many times here, the tornado siren will go off in the middle of one. I have been near typhoons and in hurricanes (not right in the middle - on the edge. I hear that trying to ride one out is absolutely terrifying). I don't find them as scary as tornados. Maybe it's just because I didn't grow up in the Midwest. My husband DID grow up in the Midwest and IMHO is not as afraid of a lot of things as he should be! He still makes us all go into the basement when the tornado siren goes off. He has has some friends whose house was totally destroyed during a tornado in Wisconsin. They and their children were only saved because they were in the basement. So it's something to think about! BTW Carol, I grew up in the DC suburbs, and Scott is living there now, temporarily. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 11:41:53 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: carol Subject: Katie:Three Continents Message: Carol: If you had ever been in one you'd hide. I mean, it's exhilerating until stuff starts falling on your head. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 22:21:08 (EST)
From: Carol Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com To: Scott T. Subject: Some real excitement Message: Scott, Where are You? Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:00:02 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Carol Subject: Some real excitement Message: Carol: I live in Alexandria, VA, which is a suburb of DC (except that it's not a conventional suburb, since it's a city in its own right). Violent thunderstorms are relatively common here, and they're nothing like the rain storms in Oregon. I was taken totally by surprise the first time I was caught in one, and almost ended up under water. So much rain falls all at once that D Street in DC (which is about three blocks from the Capitol) turned into a river. The sound and fury sounds like the end of the world, and the light show can be tremendous. In the storm two days ago the concert for Tibet was hit by lightning, and they evacuated the RKF statium. Don't think anyone was killed, but I've seen big explosions caused by lightning right out my window. When a transformer goes up it looks like a bomb. Most tornadoes are very small by midwest standards, but there are usually three or four every year. A 'supercell' is an especially violent thunderstorm that often spawns small tornadoes. These don't usually last more than 30 seconds to a minute, so again they aren't big by midwest standards. But getting caught in a supercell can be very scary, especially as tree limbs and powerlines start snapping and hitting the roof of the car. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 02:39:37 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Some real excitement Message: Thanks for the details! I guess Maslow's heirarchy of needs applys to the enjoyment of storms. If you're not safe, you can't enjoy! I'm sure my perspective would be altered if I'd ever been in danger. I saw Mt.St.Helens exploding, but only from Portland about 45-50 miles away. The volcanic cloud was very impressive.The ash really made a mess! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:49:41 (EST)
From: RT Email: --- To: Scott T. Subject: The 2000 sin-drone. Message: Hi Scott ...evaluating your assessment with the sites' 1800 documents. I will return in a week, with a humble opinion - and addresses for purchasing food for storage! Thanx for your intel. RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:12:02 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: RT Subject: The 2000 sin-drone. Message: RT: I was serious about the 1900 problem. I know they didn't have computers then, but they did have forms and bureaucracies. There might be something to be gained by an historical analysis of that transition. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:33:44 (EST)
From: RT Email: -- To: All and Scott Subject: EZ Reference 2000. Message: US News and World Report, June 8, 1998 : Year 2000 Time Bomb' 5 myths that deter managers from debugging Computers' 3 pp. Too much to relate, but it does look serious. Systemic tests at Utilities are failing -takes 3 days to fix bugs- ATMs freeze up now at 2000 date on exp.of a visa card-all means a few days to a few weeks of major inconvenience. Afterwords, costs of goods and services would rise to pay the estimated $600B tab. Think shortages. RT concludes: Save your money, do not support elan vital! RT (will continue to condense data for all) www.garynorth.com PS: Hey Scott: Lets look into this! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:00:15 (EST)
From: RT Email: what? how? To: RT alert part too! Subject: Y2K Message: Here is more on the future. Also try: www.y2k.com Gary North's Y2K Links and Forums Main Categories Page There are over 1,800 documents on this site. This is growing by over 100 a month. The evidence is rolling in from all sides now, and the vast bulk of it says that the Year 2000 Problem (y2k) is not being dealt with fast enough. I maintain that the y2k problem is systemic. It cannot be fixed. The interconnections are too many. A noncompliant computer will spread bad data and re-corrupt a compliant computer. They cannot all be fixed. There is no agreed-upon standard for even the placement of the century date. Either the noncompliant computers will re-corrupt the compliant ones, or else the compliant ones must cease all contact with noncompliant ones, thereby shutting down entire systems, most notably the banking system. If we can't fix almost all noncompliant computers (and we can't), it does no permanent good to fix any of them. This is the 'dirty little secret' of the computer programming guild. Few people believe this. Few people are even aware of the threat. But one man who is aware is President Clinton. On February 4, 1998, President Clinton signed an executive order that set up a commission to coordinate the Year 2000 repairs of the United States government. If the Year 2000 Problem were not a very serious problem, why would he do this? ....more updates to follow. EZ to digest a few paragraphs every few days, OK? Oh Lord, is this service?---RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:18:58 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: RT Subject: Y2K Message: RT, I agree that Y2K is a serious problem. The insurance industry, for example, is VERY concerned about it, and is placing Y2K exclusions in their policies. I also attended a seminar a couple of weeks ago by the very conservative CBA and IIA and they contend that it will be VERY serious, only mitigated somewhat, by the amount of work that is done ahead of time to prepare for it. But they conclude the same as you do, that the corrected systems will get 'recorrupted' by data coming from computers that aren't completely free of the problem. In fact, I know stockbrokers who are suggesting to their clients that they 'go liquid' with their stock portfolios by the middle of 1999, because the problem will cost corporations billions in profits due to lost or uncollectible revenues and the extra expense of fixing the problems as they occur. JW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 13:45:25 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: RT Subject: Y2K Message: RT: I sent a query to John Warfield about this. He is both an electrical engineer and the father of Design Science and Interpretive Structuaral Modeling which is a way of gathering expertise on complex systemic problems and constructing a 'problematique.' If anyone has insight into whether there is a 'real' problem it would be John. You have only described one recursive cycle in the problematique, and one that probably does not have universal agreement. It may also be relatively minor in the overall scheme. Depends on whether the recursion is 'dampened,' or 'reinforced,' etc. What leads into it, and what leads out? Don't accept the 'opinions of experts' on face value. They all tend to be linear thinkers. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:07:34 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Y2K Message: 'problematique.' Scorekeeper: Please award Scott 50 cents for using this word, if it really is a word, or, in the alternative, fine him 50 cents for making it up. :) Just kidding, couldn't help it. Scott, I think the concern is that if there is a Y2K problem it will be HUGE. The fact that is might not be a problem doesn't help too much. I'm just impressed that some organizations with very conservative views on this stuff are convinced that a serious problem is likely to occur. For example, The Gartner Group, international information technology consultants, estimate it will cost $600 billion to fix the Y2K problem worldwide, and in addition to the software makeover, according to AICPA, the risk and cost of litigation relating to the problem is substantial, running into billions more. Predictions for the new millennium include chaos in air traffic routes, rail arteries and communication systems; disruption of bond payments, stock trade settlements and welfare and retirement benefits; failure of medical devices, such as IV units and heart monitors; inability to access medical and pharmaceutical records; and disruption of process control and monitoring equipment and such computer-related systems as elevators, fire control, security, heating and ventilation. I have a couple of clients who provide consulting services for Year 2000 'fixes,' and there are a few insurers who have come out with products as well. AIG is conducting an analysis and demanding either an exclusion or additional premium to provide coverage, while Lloyds is more liassez fiare and is leaving it policies silent on the issue, so far. My clients do tell me that the problem is real and serious but that the problem can be fixed, if it is addressed soon enough and with enough resources. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 14:54:15 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: Y2K Message: Joe: At this point I don't really know if the problem is 'real.' On one level the 'year 2000 problem' has become part of the conservative iconography, through Pat Robertson. It is a sort of reinforcement for apocryphal scenarios. That could be the source of the scare in conservative organizations. A 'problematique' is a word coined by Warfield to describe a kind of 'system picture' of a complex problem, that involves the use of 'digraphs' and other symbolic representations. It's a bit like a flow chart, but more informative. He also has an 'index of complexity' that he uses to rate problems. The point of the procedure is that no one expert has sufficient knowledge to understand a complex problem of this sort. You therefore get the experts and decision-makers together in a room for a week or so, get them to define and agree upon their use of terms, and then have them use a voting process in which they make decisions about a multitude of two-way relationships. The multivariate relationships are then constructed from the two-way votes using a form of matrix algebra. I've been through several of these things, which are now used by the military, and by Ford, and a number of other companies dealing with complex social and/or technical problems. It works. All single-expert problem scenarios are probably erroneous. It's a little like the story about the blind man and the elephant. Experts tend to see only the part of the problem addressed by their field, and to ignore other elements, thus over-emphasizing a particular aspect. It might be, for instance, that the technical aspect of the problem is quite minor compared to the social. I have no doubt John will have something to say on this. He is not noted for underemphasizing the importance of complex systemic problems. However, he's taking a surprisingly long time to answer me. I'm used to getting replies within a few minutes. It's like he's sitting there online waiting for you. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 15:06:04 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Y2K Message: By 'conservative organizations' I don't mean politically conservative, I just mean organizations that are not prone to exaggerated scenarios. These include the profesional insurance organizations, the certified public accountants, and a bunch of technical consultants. I don't believe they pay much attention to what Pat Roberston says. Regarding 'problematique,' I guess it was Warfield that made it up. Sorry, I just get peeved sometimes at the way users of the English language feel they can coin words at will. I just got a course description from Golden Gate University suggesting that a certain course is for those 'transitioning' from one career to another. Sorry, 'transitioning' is NOT a word! As to whether the problem is technical or social, it might be hard to say, but the sources I have reduce everything to a financial issue, in an attempt to quantify the 'problem' that way. Even setting aside any social disruption, they emphasize the COST to industry, the economy, etc. to deal with the problem and it's aftermath. As you know, we are pretty bad at quantifying any other problem that doesn't have a dollar sign attached to it. But the large financial risk involved, IMHO, IS getting the experts together, and providing the motivation to do that. Any way you slice it, however, whether the problem is prevented or not, it is going to cost the econony considerable amounts of resources. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 16, 1998 at 16:43:41 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: Y2K Message: Joe: Somebody is going to make a bundle on this, that's for sure. Wish it were me. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:51:03 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Y2K Message: Finally, something to say that might not be inane... Patty (my wife) works for county government. I asked her what they were doing about Y2K. She said they were doing extensive work on it and had been for quite some time. This includes upgrading hardware and revamping software. She said the state government was deeply into their changes also. (she has need to communicate with state government in her position in the county) My reading of North's site and other links from that site is that there will probably be some problems which could trigger an economic slowdown. I find it hard to believe, however, that the titans and powers that be in politics and business would just sit back and watch the whole thing fall apart. Which it might if the problem wasn't being addressed. I'm concerned, but not worried. Personally, I will lay in a couple of months' supply of food staples and some cash just in case there is a run on the banks and a disruption of the food supply. Like one chap said 'Prepare for the worst; hope for the best. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 18, 1998 at 01:26:54 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott T./JW Subject: Y2K and stocks, way off topic Message: I know two people who have started companies that are working on the year 2K problem. One of them just bought a HUGE house in a country club area, so you are right about the money. I just wonder if their solutions will work. It is supposed to be a huge problem. Where I live they are predicting that people will be without utilities and cable TV, etc. for days-weeks until the problem is corrected. In fact, the State government has admitted this publically. They say that they are working on it, but... I am a bit concerned that someone is going around telling people to liquidate their stocks, as you know what that can lead to. (Oh, yeah, low prices so that we can all buy more-never mind.) Seriously, I think if you invest in the right things, you may end up making money. Now I just have to figure out what that would be. Any ideas? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 02:27:43 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Y2K Message: In my linear way of thinking, I imagined one solution would be to 're-name' 2000. Why not call it 0200 or something? Is it just the first '1' that is the problem? a little mouse hey, I like that name. I hate Judex now. I think I might call myself mouse. Does anyone object to people changing their posting name (twice?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 02:23:01 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: RT Subject: Y2K Message: This is starting to sound like memes - could it relate to people who can't change to live in the 'new society' which is emerging so fast - all based on technology, it seems? eg How long have ATM's been around, yet the banks were recently advertising to encourage more senior citizens use 'cash cards'. This many changes this fast can cause a big culture shock for many people. another eg: can't get a job with no computer skills, even the most basic of jobs these days. I have seen people who can't master the most basic of computer skills. It's terrifying for them. Just thoughts on evolution (from a dinosaur who's still wondering whether to go and train as a computer programmer or something) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:09:55 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: RT ALERT! Subject: This from Warfield Message: RT: Finally got this reply from Warfield, in which he basically begs off. He does not discount the possibility that it is a huge problem, however: 'Scott, no I have no definitive reply. Prof. Stuart Umpleby at George Washington University is very up to date in this domain. I recommend that you send him an e mail and ask to be put on his y2K list, if you want to keep up to date on what's going on around here. He ran a meeting a few weeks ago with the US government y2k experts (shudder) and others. I guess you know about Gary North's home page and various other things that he has on the web.' -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |