Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 13 | |
From: Jun 18, 1998 |
To: Jun 25, 1998 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 11:22:43 (EST)
From: Iola Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Thief and a Liar Message: Last fall in Amaroo, I had the pleasure of being called a thief and a liar after slogging at 'Daya's Fine Dining' for five hours for free. The preceeding day I had treated three of my friends to lunch at $85 Australian ($340). I noticed they were short-staffed, so I offered to help the next day. I showed up after MJ declared darshan. About five floor staff were there. It was chaos. The service was dreadful. I felt badly. When I pay that much for a meal, I expect the best. At the end, this ego-maniac chef told me to start hauling the trolley steam tables in. I told him I was busy with one last table. Another English bloke suggested I get us two plates off the trolley instead of the slops they had sent over from the tent kingdom. I didn't think anything of it. I got the two plates ready and then ran into the chef. He shouted that I was a liar to say I was busy and that I was stealing food. About 100 people heard him. I just started to cry like a little kid. I was so humiliated. Good grief. What were they doing? Reheating the shrimp, lamb, etc. for the dinner crowd. That was the end of my beautiful EXPERIENCE. It had cost the airfare from Canada, accommodations, price of admission, etc. for that. COME TO THINK OF IT, I HAVE BEEN ABUSED QUITE OFTEN IN MJ AND K-RELATED THINGS. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 12:55:11 (EST)
From: red heart Email: None To: Iola Subject: Thief and a Liar Message: how you were treated was wrong. mistake to focus on the premies instead of what you can get from Maharaji. i am sure if and when Maharaji hears about such treatment he would not like it either. why make him responsible for every premie that gets into their ego or into their head about things? you are cheating yourself more than you were cheated. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:45:23 (EST)
From: King David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: red heart Subject: Thief and a Liar Message: Hi there red heart. Since you are insistent that Maharaji is the true master I have decided to let it be known that I am the rightful heir to our great English, nay, British throne. Do premies still talk like you do? You know, in your head, in your ego etc. God, that experience you had in Australia, Iola, sounds so much like what used to go on in some of those seventies festivals. Personally, I found them pretty awful and I didn't enjoy a single one. You couldn't PAY me to go through all that stuff again. Crap food that gave me the runs, baking heat or sloshing around in the mud, listening to Maharaji and bored rigid, and to crown it all we had the magnificent specticle of the Lord dancing on the stage, topless! I felt absolutely nothing at all those festivals. Glad that's all behind me now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 20:19:35 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: red heart Subject: 'focus on premies' Message: We were often quoted the bible by mahatmas way back when, as a twist of logic satsang-style. 'By their fruits shall you know them'. We were told to judge it's value by the experience and examples of the premies and by our own experience of K. You don't want people to judge M by the premies or M by his actions or talk. Frees you all to do whatever you please....'Maharaji' is not God or greater than god! He is a human who misrepresents himself because he doesn't truly know who he is! He is trapped in a one way belief system that I hope you can find the way out of! carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:39:58 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Iola Subject: Thief and a Liar Message: Iola - I'm sorry that happened to you. It sounds terrible and I would have started crying too. I used to hate doing 'service' at events because people were often treated that way - like they didn't matter. But in a way, your story is funny too. How is the Rawat family going to get it together to bring Knowledge to the world if they can't even run a restaurant for three days? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:03:57 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Katie's talent Message: Katie, your real talent is not in addressing issues squarely, sorry to say. It's not even in being nice, which you do okay but I think Carol's even nicer. Maybe I am too (although I hate to brag). It's in comedy! This: But in a way, your story is funny too. How is the Rawat family going to get it together to bring Knowledge to the world if they can't even run a restaurant for three days? is SO funny. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:54:55 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Katie's talent Message: Jim, You don't know me, and you have no idea whether I face issues squarely or not, so fuck off. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 16:05:31 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Katie Subject: Katie's talent Message: Katie, you sweetie!! Now I feel so much better about my bite me post. Altho you have definitely had more provocation. email if you like. I hope you are ok. ps - no offense Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 16:55:47 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Katie's talent Message: Katie, It's a little late to say I don't know you but I do have to admit that you almost always face issues absolutely squarely. I exaggerated and apologize for that. That's all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:50:57 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Katie's talent Message: Dear Jim - You wrote: Katie, It's a little late to say I don't know you but I do have to admit that you almost always face issues absolutely squarely. I exaggerated and apologize for that. That's all. Thank you for the apology, Jim. When I said you didn't know me, I should have said that you didn't know what was going on in my life. Although many of the people on here may not believe it, I do have a life apart from the forum and I feel like all that I have been doing for the past month in my life is facing difficult issues head-on. Not only that but several of my friends, both on and off the forum, have been having a hard time and have been having to face their own difficult issues. So I got very angry when you said I was evasive. I am not. Anyway, I appreciate the apology. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:43:45 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Katie's talent Message: Katie, I'd have to say that one of your real talents is being a good friend. Good friends are hard to find, and even harder to keep. Thanks for helping me keep my faith in friendship. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:53:11 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: to VP and Selena Message: Hey guys - thanks for your posts. You both are good friends, and I appreciate it more than I can say here. Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 17:40:29 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Katie Subject: Premie Restaurant Message: Katie, Gail et al: I had a similar experience in NYC, working in a premie restaurant in Times Square. The guy who ran the place was rigorous. I took off one evening to go to the village to look for a book by Tulsidas (the Ramayana). When I got back he read me out for leaving. Then, while I was meditating the next day (he housed us in the basement, for God's sake) at about 5:00 AM he rousted me and told me to go upstairs and start cleaning the kitchen. I just turned around, packed my backpack, and hitchhiked to California. Last time I was ever in New York City until about a month ago. I think the restaurant was eventually closed by the Board of Health. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:34:48 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Premie Restaurant Message: I have to say, Scott this story makes me think you have the same kind of courage as that long lost love of yours who got off the bus in the desert. Cool! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:35:18 (EST)
From: PaulR Email: None To: Iola Subject: Not a Thief and a Liar Message: Dear Iola, Thank you for your observation. One of the things which I learned from GM, was how to love. He promised that that was what he was teaching. I came to GM with an open heart and I did certainly learn much about love from him. I thank GM for that and have moved on. (In fact I've always wanted to thank GM for that on this forum anyhow.) But many others (maybe most) came with ambition because they wanted to be 'realised souls, ultimately fulfilled or some such nonsense thing.' When they eventually get into the situation of authority which they have striven for in premiedom, they have already lost any ability to love and also discern truth. In your situation at Amaroo, even a blind pig could have seen that the cause of the failures in the restaurant was workers day off at the darshan line. What you have learned, and I have too, is that, as someone used to say; 'Human life is the most precious thing,' and not to behave towards others in such a way. It does not even take restraint, only common sense. Anyone with an iota of common sense can see that each human being is a child of God, and so you must be too. What kind of mind altering drugs could that person have been on to have seen 'a Thief and a Liar.' Nothing has been wasted, have a great life. good wishes, pr Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:46:42 (EST)
From: x Email: no To: Premies Subject: Not a Thief and a Liar Message: To RH and PR, You are both excellent at defending the abuser. Everything is always the premies' fault. Maharaji has nothing to do with the actions of HIS premies. Get real! Do you blame rape on the victims too? She deserved it, she was wearing a mini-skirt, IT MUST HAVE BEEN HER KARMA!! People like you are beneath contempt. x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 16:07:06 (EST)
From: PaulR Email: None To: x Subject: Not a Thief and a Liar Message: To X I was NOT defending (nor condoning) her abuser. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 16:05:37 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: PaulR Subject: Question for Paul Message: You say: 'I came to GM with an open heart and I did certainly learn much about love from him' Really? Care to get specific? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass or anything, but I have been struggling with figuring out something I can thank GMJ for. My experience with him regarding love was I don't recall ever learning anything about love from him, I don't remember ever seeing him express love to anyone, other than maybe one of his kids. Well, I guess he would say 'blessings to all the premies' or 'dear Premies'. Those are terms of endearments. But anyway, if you care to explain, I'm all ears. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 16:44:17 (EST)
From: PaulR Email: pgrobinson@hotmail.com To: John Subject: Question for Paul Message: dear John, As you state that you are not being a 'smart ass,' I'll take some time to respond to you and the board. (. . . . thinking . . ). The context of my post was as an answer to someone who had posted earlier, and refers to a common thread in her posts over period of several days. I have never seen your name on a post here before so I wonder why (your motivation) you are responding to me now. I am sorry that you think that you learned nothing from GM, although I'm sure that you have deep down. How about the discernment to stay away from cults for instance. I completely agree with your implied assesment, that (nearly) all premies were abused rotten by one another in GM's organisation, and persuaded to abandon their lives and values to GM's pleasure. I observed many examples of such abuses first hand, and got out early. Indeed I found this forum myself, only because I was (and still am) trying to find a woman who was in the NY Ashram when I was there to make an offer of amends to her for a terrible (IMO) harm which was perpetrated against her there. Indeed; let me state that I was abused also, but not in the very worst ways that I know of. Over more than 20 years, slowly, I have come to forgive GM for the wrongs which were perpetrated against me, and to forgive others too. This has set me free to enjoy the blessings which life has taught me also. your question is almost impossible to answer in this 'forum' format. It's a very very big (B I G) question. Listen John I could write a *$%@^&* book and still not give you a full answer. Please forgive the incompleteness of my answer. So I wish you (and all of us too) well in your own healings. PS 'Blessings to all the Ex-Premies (and the Premies too)' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 17:14:59 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: PaulR Subject: Question for Paul Message: I have come to forgive GM for the wrongs which were perpetrated against me, and to forgive others too. PaulR, Are you in the habit of forgiving people who neither admit their crimes nor stop perpetrating them? I know people sometimes talk in those terms but really, that seems bizarre to me. Let me put it this way. You've forgiven Maharaji from afar. What if you met with him and had a chance to tell him you'd forgiven him? What if he then said you were full of shit, he'd never done anything wrong to warrant your forgiveness, thank you very much, and, indeed, you, if anyone, were the one who should apologice, apologize for leaving the 'truth'? Would your forgiveness still hold? Sometimes, I think people talk about 'forgiving' Maharaji when they really mean 'forget'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:34:55 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: PaulR Subject: Question for Paul Message: Jeez, Paul, are you taking confused pills? You stated in a post, just up this thread, that maharaji had taught you how to love. John asked if you could be more specific, and you responded that maharaji and premies had perpetrated wrongs against you and each other, and that you'd perpetrated wrongs against other premies. You started to respond but didn't address the question at all. Then you said you could write a book and still not give the answer, and then you apologized for being incomplete. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:15:22 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Rick Subject: Question for Paul Message: Thanks Rick, sometimes I wonder, is it me, am I missing something? This has happened before on this forum. Someone will say they learned something from M, I will ask for some details, and the details are simply NEVER forthcoming. M does not teach anything but devotion to HIM. Learning to obsess about M does not help one in any way in any other aspect of life, in fact, it's actually harmfull in many other aspects of life. I believe M taught me how to be a real ass hole to people that I love. He taught me NOTHING about real love. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 00:43:01 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: John Subject: Question for Paul Message: I'd have to agree, John. I guess the shpiel is supposed to be that through devotion a premie receives maharaji's love. I was always waiting to get a full shopping cart, but seemed to walk away only with some second hand clippings of some sort. I suppose I learned that I got the short end of some stick. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 06:32:53 (EST)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: PaulR Subject: To Paul R Message: Hi Paul R, nothing much to say right now, I just wanted to let you know that I've enjoyed reading your last two posts and am glad that you've seemingly reached a ballanced perspective that you feel good about. good wishes Mirabai Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 20:42:07 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: John Subject: Question for Paul Message: Maybe I can help a little...I think you can say that you learned about love from someone if by loving someone, you discovered a depth of love in yourself that you had not previously been aware of. It is a process of discovery and maturity to learn the source of love is not the person you love, but is in yourself. About forgiveness, in my experience, the healing from abuse takes a lot of time and the act or practice of forgiveness accomplished more for my healing from my brother's attack than anything else. It does not require that the abusor admit the abuse. It happens in you and frees you from holding the hurt and resentment. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 20:50:11 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Carol Subject: Question for Carol Message: About forgiveness, in my experience, the healing from abuse takes a lot of time and the act or practice of forgiveness accomplished more for my healing from my brother's attack than anything else. It does not require that the abusor admit the abuse. It happens in you and frees you from holding the hurt and resentment. Really, Carol? I have to ask you the same question I asked Paul. In your case, if you were to sit down with your brother and tell him you forgave him and he said 'For what? I never did anything', would you still feel free of hurt and resentment? Honestly, I can't imgaine that. Worse, what if knew your brother was STILL attacking people and, again, never so much as apologized to you? I just don't think things work that way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:22:15 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Question for Carol Message: Jim: Let me jump in here with a few citations. (Just kidding.) I think that what Carol is talking about is that there's a component of anger that is self-destructive. It's a bit like continuing to pay a lawyer for pressing a lawsuit when you know you're never going to get anything out of the defendant. She refuses to allow the perpetrator to control her to the degree that she hangs onto that anger (and continues to pay the lawyer's bills). As for the component that is directed at the wrong itself, she may have put the relevant papers in storage until such time as they are needed or useful. In the mean time she preserves a dispassionate 'fuck off.' Hope I'm not over-interpreting someone else's position. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:04:22 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Question for Scott Message: Well, Scott, I think there's a big problem with your lawsuit analogy. To pursue that 'case', Carol would have to continue spending money. That's a conscious choice she can easily make one way or the other. To continue feeling anger, on the other hand, requires no further 'investment' but rather is an emotional state NOT a financial decision. Indeed, I think a closer analogy might be Carol deciding part way through litigation that, for whatever reason, it wasn't worth pursuing and, rather than just dropping it, writing her brother a big apology for launching the suit in the first place. I've enver heard of anyoen doing that when they still feel that they were aggrieved but, for whatever reason, have decided to not pursue the matter. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:29:54 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Question for Scott Message: Jim: To continue feeling anger, on the other hand, requires no further 'investment' but rather is an emotional state NOT a financial decision. Balderdash! If you truly believe that there's no overhead in feeling anger, you're warped! It may not be 'financial' but it is surely 'economic,' in a larger sense. You're on thin water here, my fiiend. You might have to actually admit to being wrong! -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:55:16 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Question for Scott Message: 'Aha', he says -- a little prematurely. Scott, remember when I said you would always be the one to feel embarrassment? Well anyway... :) Anyway, here, too, you're wrong. You say: If you truly believe that there's no overhead in feeling anger, you're warped! It may not be 'financial' but it is surely 'economic,' in a larger sense. Yes, there may be 'overhead' but it's not the result of any new decision or fresh committment of resources. What's wrong? Can't you see that? Am I going to have to bring premieji in to settle this? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 15:24:04 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Question for Scott Message: Jim: Perhaps I don't understand what you're saying? If I'm maintianing a storefront that's costing me overhead, and not bringing in enough profit to cover, and I'm selling product below cost, I can't 'make up the difference on volume.' The enterprise is losing money and I ought to sell out. Even if it is making money I might invest those resources better somewhere else. In that case the cost involved is an 'opportunity cost.' If you've found a way to make anger pay for itself, don't assume the opportunity cost is the same for everyone. When I say 'sell out' I mean forgive. I agree that doesn't mean you're forgiving the perpretrator necessarily. It means 'giving up' on your anger. See below. ... is all I'm saying. Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 15:33:33 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Question for Scott Message: Scott, You can't 'give up' your anger like that! That's bullshit. We don't control our emotions like that. That's why the financial examples are all wrong. You decide 'do I pay more now or not?' in an entirely different way than you decide 'do I feel forgiveness/anger/fear/envy/jealously/pride (you name it)'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 16:28:15 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Question for Scott Message: Jim: Carol just told you she DID control her anger like that. It is HERS is it not? Does IT control HER? Why the hell should it? Jim, I'm bowing out of this. You're just not trying. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 16:31:15 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Oh no you don't! Message: Carol just told you she DID control her anger like that. It is HERS is it not? Scott, Indulge me a bit here. I say that your comment above is outrageously simplistic. As if emotions worked like that! Well? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 19:39:14 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Oh yes I do. Message: Jim: Well, an analogy is only an analogy. Maybe it's not simple, but whether it is a simple choice (which it clearly isn't) or the result of a difficult, challenging, complex and tedious process, the issue is ultimately whether the choice is up to her. It can be, should be, and almost certainly is (in this case and in others). You don't have to get anything back from the perpetrator to experience forgiveness. There are some holocaust survivors who experienced forgiveness. Others who feel they can hold Germany itself responsible, or the human race, or some specific person like Eichmann[sp??]. Some were able to sell out, or give their anger to a belief in ultimate retribution, or simply consign it to fate. That is forgiveness, and it conforms to some (although not all) of the synonyms on that list. If you talk to any of those people I am sure they'll tell you that the process was worth something... that they received more than they gave away. In short, they profited. But to tell the truth you have not given an inch, and I don't think you will, whether you are right or not. Jim, I don't think you really know how to have a discourse. To do so you have to make a genuine attempt to understand what the other person is saying, and to convince the other that this is so. (This is your obligation, not mine.) You've convinced me that you're only interested it corralling a dialogue into an area where you can stage an ambush. You only know how to argue. That's a good skill to have, but not if it's the only one you know. In my mind at least, you've given Chris another chance. I'll not argue with you further about this. If you want to actually understand, there a quite a few people on this site who can explain things to you. If that doesn't suffice, go see The Horse Whisperer. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 19:55:57 (EST)
From: Indie Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: real mind control Message: Jim, It is possible to change own's emotional state, that is, going from a state of anger, to a more neutral state, like curiosity. Maybe you are unaware of this, or just don't know how to do it. And I'm not telling you so don't ask. Ha! Scott, If that doesn't suffice, go see 'The Horse Whisperer'. Where is he and what does he charge an hour? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 21:22:10 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Indie Subject: real mind control Message: Indiana: The Horse Whisperer is a movie with Redford, but it's based on the life of a horse trainer named Monty [Something]. As I understand it, his success with training horses becomes an analog for assisting victims of abuse 'forgive.' This does not mean that they forgive the perpretrator, hence JW's explanation and Rick's concurrence amount to an agreement about ignorance. The ability to ignore something is not, to me, a stand in for wisdom. Nor, is the capacity to ridicule something that works, especially without offering squat to replace it. Just admirable, Joe. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 20:11:49 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Hardly Message: Scott, You're way off, I dare say. At least all your examples are. Look, I'm sure some holocaust survivors have expressed some forgiveness for some of that act. But show me one, just one, who has done anything of the sort for an unrepentant nazi. Especially one who's still trying to recruit. And that's the really the situation, isn't it? Maharaji stands by his many tragic misdeeds and choices as 'excellent' according to those who heard him last speak on the subject. Anyone who was truly aggrieved by him could not possibly forgive him in the circumstances. Not without creating some fantasy Maharaji that's apologizing like crazy and giving everyone's money back. Thanks for the insults though. Thanks as well for the reccommendation. I LOVE Robert Redford. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 22:23:52 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hardly Message: Jim: Listen. One last time. You don't have to forgive the perpetrator in order to forgive. Is this Greek, or something? You have not even paid attention to a single thing I've said. What the fuck is wrong with you? READ THOSE POSTS AGAIN Or don't. Who gives a damn. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 09:12:37 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hardly Message: Ok Jim I can't let you get away with this any longer. How many ways does someone have to offer you some insight? Could you suspend your judgements for even one minute - I care about you Jim because I think a long time passed between the shock and hurt you received from Maharaji and the time when you talked abuot it and got some healing. Therefore I think you must have a very tight knot of fear and pain which has been there a long time. But look at it like this. You are waiting for Maharaji to apologize, to admit that he hurt you and it is his fault for saying he wwas the Lord of the Universe to you. And yes there was an unequal power relationship like parent/child. And yet, until you own that it was you who believed him, you won't be free. The part of you that loved and believed him is the part that has a great capacity for live, compassion and lots of good things. It is your innocence, your 'heart', the place where new growth happens inside. That's what I beleive. WHile you keep him being the Persecutor you willl stay the victim and you are trapped there. One day when a child grows up they may forgive their parent. Because hteir parent was not perfect, even though the child believed they were god (and needed to ). Even though the parent knew they were not god, they did their best (for whatever reason - it doesn't really matter but don't take it out of context). I jsut want to get on with the central argument. Unfortuantley the process of growing up involves a hurt to the 'magical child' where innocence is lost. It may even be the parent who inflicts the wound (unintentionally). Because life is like that. We all carry a wound. we all long for our lost innocence. But life wounds us, and often the one we love the most does it. That's all I want to say right now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 11:26:01 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judex Subject: Judex, PLEASE! Message: Judex, What the fuck are you talking about? I don't expect M to apologize anymore than the next guy, I'm not waiting for that moment anymore than you and I'm certainly not basing my life around the 'pain' you're projecting on me. Jeez. You guys are so full of this new age bullshit, I can't believe it. I'm just into calling a spade a spade: Maharaji ripped us off and no, I won't forgive him until he deserves it. I don't NEED to forgive him anymore than I do the guys who ripped my father off for more than a million bucks in some business deal in the 70s. I FORGET about them almost always becuase a)they're not public figures; b) it was my dad, not me; c)I don't know what they're doing now and have no way of contacting them, etc. But forgive them? Without some contrition on their part? Bullshit. Please save your inner child crap for someone who believes in that. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 20:32:40 (EST)
From: NDYW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim look at this Message: Scott: ...how to have a discourse. To do so you have to make a genuine attempt to understand what the other person is saying, and to convince the other that this is so. James you need some work in this area! Report to study hall immediately after happy hour. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 21:09:52 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: NDYW Subject: You mean...? Message: Indie baby, I don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about. No, really, I'm a little confused. Do you mean that I'm no good at convincing people that I'm at least trying to understand them? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 21:30:46 (EST)
From: NDBB Email: None To: Jim Subject: Your getting warmer Message: Do you mean that I'm no good at convincing people that I'm at least trying to understand them? Jim, you just did it!! You're at least a little good at it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 21:39:45 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: NDBB Subject: Yeah, well you're not Message: Indie Bee Bee, Are you Indie Yahweh too? We've got a general taboo here against shapeshifting, you know. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:30:38 (EST)
From: NDYW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yeah, well you're not Message: Jim, You said: ''Indie Baby'' Which I translated as ''NDBB'' Could you let me in on the taboo against shapeshifting? What does this mean and why does it exist? Who's rule is it? I've been known to break a few taboos in my time. Rebelliously Yours, Indie aka NDYW, aka Indie Baby, aka NDBB, aka Indiana. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 22:00:29 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: You mean...? Message: No, really, I'm a little confused. Do you mean that I'm no good at convincing people that I'm at least trying to understand them? Partial credit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 23:20:09 (EST)
From: Peter Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: bullseye Message: You've convinced me that you're only interested it corralling a dialogue into an area where you can stage an ambush. You only know how to argue. That's a good skill to have, but not if it's the only one you know. Scott, I think you're right on target here. It's a very consistent pattern that Jim shows. Not only consistent, but belligerent. I think that shows a strong need NOT to hear what others are saying, a strong need to continue feeling exactly as he does. Which ties in very well with the actual content of this little dogfight, because how Jim feels is ANGRY. That's fine. I think he has had good cause to feel angry. But he basically only ever offers one idea on the forum: that he is ANGRY, that he SHOULD be angry, that he should be angry IN PERPETUITY, and that EVERYONE ELSE should be angry in perpetuity too. This is sick. In doing this, Jim gives Maharaji an amazing amount of continued control over his life. I also like your economic metaphor. Anger is a very expensive emotion. It's worth the price when you need it, but if you get addicted and can't let go it will do you far more harm than good. Letting go of anger may or may not be 'forgiveness' but it sure is necessary to being healthy (which is the best revenge). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 00:50:57 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Peter Subject: bullseye Message: Peter, with all due respect, I think it's going a little bit far to explain what someone else is feeling, especially when it's someone you likely have never met. I think it's fine to complain if you think Jim or anyone else doesn't discuss issues on the forum the way you would like, but to impute emotional motivation for that is kind of unfair. Saying he is 'addicted' to anger, is especially unfair. By way, what the hell does that mean? That you need a daily 'fix' of anger like a drug to get through the day? Please. I think all this discussion about forgiving is mainly semantic. I think if you are not angry at BM, that's fine and neither Jim nor anyone else expects that you should be. If you used to be angry, but aren't anymore, that's fine too. If you weren't angry, but are starting to feel that way, that's also fine. I have seen people say all of these things are happening to them on the forum. And I think it's very healthy. I also think it's quite possible to think BM is a lousy jerk, and say so, and NOT be angry at all. Don't you think so? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 01:43:33 (EST)
From: Peter Email: None To: JW Subject: Jim and anger and forgiveness Message: Well, I mostly agree with your second paragraph, especially that it's quite possible to think BM is a lousy jerk, and say so, and NOT be angry at all. Happens on here all the time. God (or whoever) knows I am not against anger. That is also pretty clearly in the record here on the forum. As far as 'explaining what Jim is feeling,' that was not a guess. No, I haven't met Jim, but he expresses anger all the time on the forum. He may have other feelings that he doesn't express here and then I would be guessing ('imputing emotional motivation,' as you say). I've got no problem with the anger. What really frosts my ass is the righteousness and especially when he hounds other people for not meeting his standards of angry anti-Maharajism, which he does constantly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 02:01:54 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Peter Subject: Frosts my ass? Message: Peter, 'Frosts my ass'? Really? 'Frosts my ass'? Is that what they say there wherever you're from? Boy does that make me angry! Holy shit, I can really feel it now. It's like a river of something or other. Boy, does that frost my ass! G-r-r-r-r-e-o-w! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 02:13:11 (EST)
From: Peter Email: None To: Jim Subject: Frosts my ass? Message: Good, let it out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 09:24:26 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: JW Subject: bullseye Message: JW where you are going off track here IMO is that you are taking a small slice OUT OF CONTEXT. the whole context of this discussion is in a Forum where ever since I have been here Jim has been attacking people who do not share his beliefs and quizzing them, slicing them up verbally and demanding they answer each point he raises, plus abusing them, their right to exist, their mental health and their whole being. Plus he continually uses words like 'fat' which to me a re very offensive, because my daughter is 'fat'. How about that, Jim. Did you ever think while you were throwing your bullets where they would land? Jim has a lot of power on this forum and you are not helping Jim by defending him in this 'innocent' way, unless you havent been reading lately, that is. I really respect you JW but I disagree with you here. Acutally this dialogue could help Jim I feel. It certainly is helping me. But finding tricky ways of denying it does not help. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:57:15 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jim Subject: Question for Scott Message: I know the rest of this thread will probably go into it more but I really want to add my thoughts Jim because they connect to stuff I've been trying to say for a while (but unable to express) The anger is an investment. Secondly, forgiveness is not an apology. I think the above analogy is a very good one. The anger keeps you powerless, stuck, and at the effect of the other person. Your anger does not affect them, it affects you. Forgiveness is not saying what they did is right. It is letting them go. Anger can become a kind of addiction. There is pleasure in it. In expressing rage. In having an emotional tantrum. The rage of a 3-year-old is pretty astounding - especially to the 3 year old. But that rage makes people blind and it eats at them. It needs to be expressed continually - so it gets vented all over the place. I don't understand it enough but I know one way to get at it is to find what is underneath that anger. Perhaps a great deal of grief. Perhaps abandonment issues.It's something that is actually more painful and scary than the anger. the anger is a cover-up, a ruse, a scheme done by the self for protection. However since these real feelings underneath (not the 'coping mechanism' fraudulent feelings) are intensely painful one usually accesses them in the care of someone like a trained therapist who can be there for you. That is if you want to give it up. I'm trying to talk generally and not specifically to you. I am just trying to share stuff I have leanred - take it or leave it if it's not useful. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:48:20 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jim Subject: Question for Carol Message: Jim I can't decide what is right or wrong but I would like to add a point to yours - the forgiveness thing you are talking about connects with that old concept of karma - I thought you guys knew all about that from old Maharaji teachings. It's supposed to be like a chain - you keep meeting the same people lifetime after lifetime that you are strongly attached to - either by pain or love - until you let go. Any strongly-held feeling toward them keeps you linked. So until you forgive them you will not be free. (In psychotherapy this person would be seen to be a part of yourself that you needed to come to terms with in some way). As Carol says the forgiveness does not rely on them. It does not matter what they do or don't do. It is for you. It will not stop you from wanting to prevent them hurting others. Forgiveness means wishing them well. Wishign they get well, amongst other things. Not keeping making them your punching-bag. HOw many punches, and still you don't feel better. You could kill them adn it won't take away what happened. It doens't change anything. What Carol is talking about is how to make the change, when (and if) you are ready to let go of the past. there is no judgement in that 'paradigm'. It's all cause and effect. on and on. In the next life you could be the abuser. You're still tied up in that triangle of persecutor/victim. To step outside it you have to become bigger than it. To do that involves taking a higher stance than anger/blame/shame/guilt. (eg compassion, forgiveness). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 06:42:42 (EST)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Carol Subject: Question for Paul Message: I'd have to agree with Carol about forgiveness. I would never heal if I was to be dependent on people being sorry for things they've done. Our whole peace of mind would be dependent on other people. From my experience I've had to go deeply into whatever grievances I've had with other people and slowly slowly angers etc.. start to dissolve. regards Mirabai Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:09:07 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mirabai Subject: New age confusion (Mirabai) Message: I'd have to agree with Carol about forgiveness. I would never heal if I was to be dependent on people being sorry for things they've done. Our whole peace of mind would be dependent on other people. From my experience I've had to go deeply into whatever grievances I've had with other people and slowly slowly angers etc.. start to dissolve. Mirabai, There's a diference between emotions drying off in time and forgiveness. I don't FEEL any strong hatred for what Hitler did to my family in the war but, no, I don't forgive him. Again, the proof is in the thought experiment: what if he were right here? Would i just say, 'oh that's okay, I forgive you. I know how it gets, people rub you the wrong way' that kind of thing? Of course not. MAYBE, if he BEGGED for my forgiveness, long enougn and hard enough to actually pull a few heartstrings, I might BEGIN to approach forgiveness, but that's certainly not what we got happening here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:38:33 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: New age confusion (Mirabai) Message: Jim: While I agree with you in principle I don't think you're cutting this quite right (nor is Marabai). Hitler is dead, and probably in hell turned inside out being poked with sharp hot utensils. That's none of my business, but now someone else's. I don't for-'get' what was done so that's not the right way to portray it. But I do have to 'give' up something so that I'm not wasting resources on the bugger. To tell the truth it's more like giving up my ongoing anger to a principle of retribution, or a supreme being, or an impersonal and arbitrary universe (in short, 'reality') than forgiving the perpetrator. I have a hunch that's what Carol means by forgiveness. You have sort of painted him over with the background color though. That feels like, and probably is, forgiveness of something or someone. We may be confused about exactly who or what. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:10:58 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: My confusion Message: I don't really understand you, Scott. And how can I point our your errors otherwise? :) Could you try to rephrase this, perhaps? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 13:18:46 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Your con-fusion Message: Jim: I am basically pointing to a difference and also a similarity between the terms 'forget' and 'forgive.' I'm trying to think more carefully about 'get' and 'give.' What is it that we 'get' when we forget, and... you know. Forgiveness, in the extreme case of the Hitlerian one, is not a matter of forgiving or surrendering your anger 'for the sake of,' him. It is surrendering your anger 'for the sake of,' you. It's not rocket science. It isn't far fetched to consider that when this happens people actually feel a sense of forgiveness, and get confused about how that feeling was generated and what it means. I'm just saying that 'forgetting' is something else. You seem to think it's one or the other. Forgetting is a different, though perhaps related, consequence. (I'd deconstruct 'con-sequence,' but to be understood I'd then have to reconstruct the sequence.) -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 13:36:24 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Your con-fusion Message: You call that deconstruction? Sounds like funny money. I doubt that 'forget' has anything to do with 'get' (although my hunch is 'forgive' is rooted in 'give'). Your new age gills are showing, Scott. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 15:45:23 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Your con-fusion Message: Jim: Pick whichever definition you like, but be mindful that there's a gamut: Emotion, religion and morality: Interpersonal emotion: Forgiveness forgive (verb) forgive, pardon, reprieve, amnesty, forgive and forget, think no more of, not give another thought, FORGET remit, absolve, assoil, shrive cancel, blot out, wipe the slate clean, OBLITERATE relent, unbend, accept an apology, BE LENIENT be merciful, not be too hard upon, let one down gently, let one off the hook, SHOW MERCY bear with, put up with, forbear, tolerate, make allowances, BE PATIENT take no offense, bear no malice, take in good part, pocket, stomach, not hold it against one forget an injury, ignore a wrong, give the benefit of the doubt, overlook, pass over, not punish, leave unavenged, turn the other cheek return good for evil, BE BENEVOLENT connive, wink at, condone, not make an issue of, turn a blind eye, DISREGARD excuse, find excuses for, JUSTIFY recommend for pardon, intercede, MEDIATE exculpate, exonerate, ACQUIT be ready to forgive, make the first move, bury the hatchet, let bygones be bygones, make it up, extend the hand of forgiveness, shake hands, kiss and be friends, kiss and make up, start over, be reconciled, BE FRIENDLY restore to favor, kill the fatted calf, CELEBRATE The Original Roget's Thesaurus of English Words and Phrases (Americanized Version) is licensed from Longman Group UK Limited. Copyright © 1994 by Longman Group UK Limited. All rights reserved. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 15:59:33 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: NOW what are you saying? Message: Scott, What the hell you talkin' 'bout, boy? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 16:24:03 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: NOW what are you saying? Message: I give up. Someone else give Jim a clue. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 18:41:39 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Okay, I'll Try Message: Okay, I'll try. When Paul and some others say forgive, they mean a sort of internal, new-age ritual in which they tacitly 'forgive' someone who did them harm, in a kind of afirmation. This supposedly results in a feeling of freedom and a lighter burden because they are no longer holding a grudge. This type of ritual has become increasingly popular in the 'inner-child/abused-child/toxic-parent/Bradshaw-bullshit/I'm-dyusfunctional-you're-dysfunctional/12-step/est-like, world. In addition to the feeling of 'freedom' one supposedly gets, it also allows the forgiver to feel spiritually and morally superior by being SO magnanimous and selfless to forgive someone, even if the perpetrator doesn't even acknolwedge that any harm occurred, and even if the perpetrator is currently merrily abusing others with wild abandon. This is, of course, nonsense. But if it helps people get through the night, who I am I to judge? To tell you the truth, I think the way to deal with anger and 'a grudge' is to carefully analyze what REALLY happened and to take responsiblity for whatever part of the harm might be the fault of the victim, being very careful not to BLAME the victim. Then, as to the part that belongs to the perpetrator, so be it. It isn't necessary to obsess about it, and maybe you WILL forget about it entirely as time goes on, but I don't think you need to perform tricks and rituals in this regard. I also object to people saying you HAVE to engage in forgiveness to grow and be happy. I simply don't believe that. [Indeed, some of my favorite life experiences involved plotting revenge. It's incredible, good, wholesome fun for the whole family! :)] But my sense of justice is also betrayed when people get on the 'forgive' bandwagon, and it evolves into an admonishment to let perpetrators of various crimes off the hook, which is the mistake a think a lot of people make. I think it's very hard to 'forgive' and still expect to hold the perpetrator responsible. Not impossible, maybe, but very hard. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 18:55:51 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: JW Subject: Okay, I'll Try Message: Good explanation, JW. My hit on the forgiveness routine is almost identical. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 19:24:54 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rick Subject: Thanks Joe and Rick Message: Yes, that new age funky chicken only works in the privacy of one's own movie set. The more interesting question, though, is whether all this tilling of the Maharaji turf helps or hinders the eventual forgetting process. I know for myself that I've really re-actived my Maharaji files since this whole net thing happened. Has that made things worse? Am I now consumed in more bitterness than I might have had I just let the whole thing go? I don't know. Good question. Mind you, like you say Joe, this IS kind of fun. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 19:36:47 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Thanks Joe and Rick Message: I can only speak for myself, but the last year has been really good for me, looking at the cult period of my life. Any residual, irrational fear I had that I might have missed out on the messiah is now gone and dead. I think I understand more how I got involved in the first place, and the support from other exes, many of whom have experiences so simlar to mine, really helps in looking at it all objectively. In some ways, I think I believe BM is even a bigger jerk that I thought he was before. But in some other ways, I realize that I had a lot to do with causing a lot of my own pain. Also, I've gaine the understanding that what pisses me off most aboiut BM, is his failure to admit mistakes, take responsbility for his actions, or exhibit any compassion of other human beings whatsoever. That, in my book, is much worse than his deluded megalomania. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 22:16:46 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: Yeah, thanks. Message: Joe: Also, I've gaine the understanding that what pisses me off most aboiut BM, is his failure to admit mistakes, take responsbility for his actions, or exhibit any compassion of other human beings whatsoever. That, in my book, is much worse than his deluded megalomania. That, is different. You have no obligation to forgive M. Nor, can you in all honesty, as long as he continues to perpetrate w/o remorse (or even with remorse, if that's possible). Are you guys not hearing me, or something? You have no obligation to stay angry either, unless you feel you do. I mean, that is up to you. Good luck on trying to get him to change, though. Maybe you'll be able to drain his followers, but if you don't succeed in taking them all away he'll still be doing what he's doing on his deathbed. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 00:01:23 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: What ARE You Talking About? Message: That, is different. You have no obligation to forgive M. Nor, can you in all honesty, as long as he continues to perpetrate w/o remorse (or even with remorse, if that's possible). Thank you, Scott I feel much better having your blessing. But, really, I can forgive anyone in the hell I want to. Whether that's justified or not is another issue, but I think it's a personal issue, made for personal reasons. Are you guys not hearing me, or something? Sure, I see what you said, I just think you are the only person in the world who understands what you said. Wasn't it something about the difference between forgiving and forgetting? Good luck on trying to get him to change, though. I never have had any illusions about trying to change him and still don't. Frankly, I don't care. I do care about making a record, however, of what has really transpired. BM and anyone else can do with it what they will. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 20:03:11 (EST)
From: NDYW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Bitter? Nah Message: Am I now consumed in more bitterness than I might have had I just let the whole thing go? It's a fun thing to do. And you get to feel good when people like Gail get free of the BM. A worthy pursuit, eh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 20:13:00 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: NDYW Subject: Bitter? Nah Message: Yup. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 22:30:47 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: NDYW Subject: Bitter? Nah Message: Indie: It's a fun thing to do. And you get to feel good when people like Gail get free of the BM. A worthy pursuit, eh? I'm not entirely clear what this means, but I understand the part that you CELEBRATE the fact that Gail is free. Ironically, this is one of the synonyms for forgiveness. Congrats. I don't think it means you're forgiving M, however. (I seem to have to point this out a lot. What gives?) -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 00:16:01 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Bitter? Nah Message: Sure, they're not forgiving BM by celebrating Gail's freedom. If anything they are doing the opposite. They partly feel good because BM, to some degree, has been undermined, and because they feel good for Gail, whose life will be improved immensely. I think that if BM were truely forgiven, the FIRST reason for celebration might no longer exist. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 09:36:00 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: NDYW Subject: Bitter? Nah Message: You don't understand that no-one is meant to be here as a fucking martyr for others, plus enjoying being nasty and bashing other people at the same time. That is not good - that is bullshit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 09:33:09 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jim Subject: Thanks Joe and Rick Message: Its got nothing to do with one's own movie set. If you really wanted some action from Maharaji you would be doing more than just writing letters to Linda Gross. The way you are fooling yourself that what you are saying is legitimate is obvious in so many ways Jim. I don't give a shit what Joe or JW say. You're not even willing to try what others who think differently suggest. As long as some of the boys in the gang back you up, thank god you're off the hook again and back to business as usual. And if anyone disagrees with you, just remember to get others to side with you against them, throw a few stones and hurt them back if you possibly can, Jim. Proud of yourself, are you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 21:11:59 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Rick Subject: Okay, I'll Try Message: Wisdom, personified! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 21:09:58 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: Okay, I'll Try Message: JW: This is, of course, nonsense. I'd agree with that. Your explanation of what I was talking about, however, sucks. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 00:11:20 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Okay, I'll Try Message: I'd agree with that. Your explanation of what I was talking about, however, sucks. Please don't bitch at me, Scott. I didn't understand what you were saying any better than Jim did. Last I saw you were quoting the Dictionary. I was attempting to explain my opinion on the whole 'forgiveness' issue as originally mentioned by Paul, which I thought was the thrust of the whole discussion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 01:08:43 (EST)
From: Peter Email: None To: JW Subject: missed the boat Message: When Scott, Carol, and Mirabai say 'forgive,' they mean let go of anger that has no current protective function. That's very clear from their various posts. In my opinion, they didn't say anything that smacked of moral superiority or that let the perpetrator off the hook. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 05:02:42 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Peter Subject: Thankyou, Peter...and Message: Paul, Scott, Mirabai! Jim, I'm happy you trying to understand. This is very real to me! These are my thoughts in regard to my personal experience of healing (which BTW I define as being free of the debilitating emotional pain that I revisited involuntarily for over 20 years prior to my first hint that forgiveness could heal me, and that I should do it for me! That first hint had nothing to do with New Age beliefs, but was something that came up amongst us in AMAC(adults molested as children)group therapy.( No one in therapy is ever pushed into forgiveness; anger is often essential and helpful and it can be used for positive actions.) Each time I was reminded of my brother, I felt pain and loss and like a victim, powerless to control what happens (I never had much anger toward him except when he denied his actions to my sister, and then I had to remember that he must be sick). I had hope and longing that he would acknowledge what he did both to me and to our relationship and say he was sorry. I was way to vulnerable to even write to him then, and I still felt some fear about him. I also really wanted certain people to know that he really did what I said. I never wanted to keep re-experiencing those feelings beyond my control. I got somewhat mad when I thought that HE was unlikely to be experiencing repeated pain or thoughts of me! I got mad at myself for continually rehearsing the story and the pain! The cost of 'attachment' to those feelings, or the habits of thinking about being a victim was a diminishment of who I could be and what I could do in the present. My past robbed me of my present moment's potential to be peaceful, loving and creative. Over a few years I have been defining the qualities that I wanted to develop in myself, which include having compassion, a forgiving nature, and being grateful and happy to be alive; I was able to recognize that forgiveness had occurred about a year ago. A few sincere prayers, off and on helped me to focus on what I really wanted. I feel almost completely healed. I have to say that Victor Frankl's book was a very positive influence on me. He was in Hitler's camps, and studied what helped some people to survive when others didn't. His own experience also taught him and led to the understanding that:(quote) Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms - to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way. Viktor E. Frankl, Man's Search For Meaning I wrote to my brother last Christmas and sent him numerous family pictures and some from his mountain climbing trips with my dad. He is remarried to a woman that writes nice letters to my mom. I intend to visit my brother sometime in the next few years. I intend to approach him as someone I loved who I had not seen in over 26 years. I still remember the love I felt as a child for him. I do not have great attachment to the results, but I will make an effort to be truly in the present and in the protection of love(my own inner sanctuary).(I also will not do anything stupid like go off somewhere alone in the woods with him like I did before, that's just common sense! It feels like that is what I need for closure. I also believe that people can change, so there may even be a chance to have some ongoing communication. I also want to go see M once more for closure. Forgetting is not possible. But because the memory is no longer hooked to a longing for apology or demonstration of remorse by my offender it no longer hurts to talk about it or remember it, and it seems to come up much less often. I have accepted the loss.I don't feel better or superior to anyone for 'doing forgiveness' but I sure feel better for and with myself! Love to you all, Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 00:23:30 (EST)
From: Peter Email: None To: Jim Subject: forgiveness Message: There's a diference between emotions drying off in time and forgiveness. There's also a difference between emotions drying off in time and fully experiencing and processing those emotions. Mirabai said, 'From my experience I've had to go deeply into whatever grievances I've had with other people and slowly slowly angers etc.. start to dissolve.' That is not emotions drying off in time, that is actively processing emotions. Call it forgiveness or call it whatever else you want. Just do it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 00:31:03 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Peter Subject: forgiveness Message: Peter, I agree with the proces you describe. If you analyze your feelings and the facts surrounding why you have them, SOME of them will dissolve, because you will discover they aren't really justified. But others WILL be justfied and perhaps clarified. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 02:09:25 (EST)
From: Peter Email: None To: JW Subject: forgiveness Message: JW, Sorry to keep disagreeing with you, but in my opinion ALL feelings are justified. Some of them may be pointed at the wrong target, and that can be discovered by introspection/analysis. Maybe that's what you mean, and we agree? I would never say that someone's anger toward Maharaji is not justified. It is. (Although anger towards mom or whoever may sometimes get lumped in there too.) But to me, anger is the appropriate reaction to being treated in an unacceptable way, and expressing that anger is a way to reduce the likelihood that that person will treat you unacceptably again. Coming from that point of view, 'fossil' anger toward Maharaji (or anyone else) doesn't have much function. So even though it's justified, why carry it? If it exists, you can process it and let it go, or you can (in Jim's words, which I like) let it 'dry up'. Or you can tend it and keep it fresh. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 05:21:48 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Peter Subject: forgiveness Message: 'There's also a difference between emotions drying off in time and fully experiencing and processing those emotions.' YES! When I started doing the emotional processing,in 1989 I was feeling at the mercy of what seemed like an endless well of pain and tears. I also felt embarassed and somewhat in ridicule of myself for what I thought of as self-pity and weakness, and I would try to shut it off. I tried to diminish or deny the validity of my pain after so many years, as if I should have gotten over it! I buried it when I was active in the premie community, told myself I was not my body and that my brother was dead to me because he was not the brother I had known. I only kept going back to counselling because I trusted my counselor when she assured me that there would be an end to that depth of despair and that my feelings were justified. I saw her about once a week for 2 years, then took some time off from it and returned to it in the group therapy for 2 more years, hard work processing past pain! There I learned that it was much easier to be angry about other's abuse and protective of other people than I had ever been for myself. But others felt the same about me and nurtured me. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 03:53:54 (EST)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Jim Subject: New age confusion (Mirabai)Jim Message: Jim, Do you feel that people do things that cannot be forgiven?. The unforgivable. I feel this subject is a very deep one. A human beings ability to forgive I believe is a profound thing that cannot be easily attained. Amongst other human qualities. But yes I do believe it is possible through deep insight, compassion and understanding to forgive even the most atrocious acts committed by man/woman kind. Even if the individual or country or group is unable or wnwilling to see their insensitivity. We need to change as individuals,that is what is going to change the world or at least to have any kind of chance of great change. Waiting for others to be sorry will not greatly transform this world I believe. I was reading a book a few months ago by someone who had survived the nazis in Germany but lost all of his family and relatives and it was a heart breaking story that affected me very deeply and it must have been incredibly difficult to come to terms with what human beings are capable of. But fundamentally I am optomistic about our potential as human beings to transform our emotions,mind and our hearts in a radical way,regardless of what we have been through. best regards Mirabai Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 06:38:29 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: PaulR Subject: Not a Thief and a Liar Message: So PaulR, One of the things which I learned from GM, was how to love. He promised that that was what he was teaching. I came to GM with an open heart and I did certainly learn much about love from him. How is that PaulR? What sort of love is that? The kind of love that Maharaji gave to Raja's wife or the kind that you would give me if I bought you a Lear Jet? D'you live permanently in Stepford PaulR or are you just visiting? Nothing has been wasted, have a great life. How nice of you PaulR to reassure Iola with your appraisal of the situation. The guy was on drugs, it's not Maharaji's fault, now piss-off and put it down to experience. Goddamnit, you are a total arsehole. Yet again Maharaji's moron machine has used and abused the people in his service while his apologists use the opportunity to blame someone else and tell us all how wonderful Maharaji really is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 14:08:50 (EST)
From: PaulR Email: None To: Jim, Rick, Scott. Subject: Response Re:Forgiveness. Message: Hold on, I'm writing a reply this afternoon. Just keeping the thread alive right now. pr Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 14:39:47 (EST)
From: PaulR Email: None To: JIM Scott Rick et al. Subject: Response Re:Forgiveness. Message: OK Guys , I've read through the assault, and would like to answer one or two points only from each Poster First of all; 'Thank You to Mirabai for your support,' and to carol; 'Thanks for taking some of the heat.' And to John, thanks for getting me to post this. My original post regarding forgiveness was addressed to Gail (as Iola). An open letter to a particular person. You might bear this context in mind, and note that she has not objected herself. The generic answer to you all is; that you have to, or may as well forgive, because it is (IMO) the only non painful option available to you. In any event it is the decision which I am trying to pursue. Let me also state that; with regards to malevolence perpetrated towards myself. GM does not make the top 3, so I have a greater challenge in forgiving others. Also Jim, Rick, Scott; stop for a moment and consider the hardships which millions of people endure daily which are much greater than the amount that you consider youselves ripped of by GM. And be grateful. More to follow . . . . . Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 14:41:47 (EST)
From: PaulR Email: None To: Jim Subject: Response Re:Forgiveness. Message: Dear Jim, Yes I am in the habit of forgiving people anyway. I am getting old and weary under the load of holding onto resentments and wish to divest them as best I am able. If I met GM, then I should wait to see if he were to make an offer of amends, which I do not require. Then if that were offered I would ask him to help me find the woman in the NY Ashram. That's all. Yes, under the circumstances you describe in your post to me, I would still (to my best ability) forgive. NO I do NOT mean forget, and I do mean forgive. ps. Much of what you post in this forum Jim is utter rubbish. My assessment of your posts here is that you must be following GM's directive. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 14:45:46 (EST)
From: PaulR Email: None To: Rick Subject: Response Re:Forgiveness. Message: Dear Rick, I can't provide more than an outline of a response in this forum, so stop being picky. I do not intend to divulge the details of any of the abuses which I observed in this forum. Nor do i ask you to divulge what you have observed. Please state again What question I did not respond to. If it is about 'What Love?' then the answer is, 'The love which completes my own existence.' With regard to your backhanded comment about me and the 'Shpiel', I was never a part of that nonsense, while I take responsibility for all that I was a part of. I recommend that you should do the same regarding what you have been a part of too. Please E-Mail me (politely) if you would like to continue this dialoque. which I would. Meanwhile, 'get on with your own life.' good wishes PaulR Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 15:18:48 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: PaulR Subject: Response Re:Forgiveness. Message: PaulR, You said maharaji had taught you about love. John asked if you'd care to give any specifics. Your next post said that 'you'd take some time to respond' but then you digressed into abuses in DLM. I pointed out that you didn't respond at all to John's post, and now you're saying I'm picky. You also suggested that the question you didn't answer was 'What love?' and that the answer is 'The love which completes my own existence'. No, PaulR, the question was, 'Why does maharaji's programming turn premies into morons?' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 15:21:55 (EST)
From: Paul Email: None To: Rick Subject: Response Re:Forgiveness. Message: That is a different question; 'Why does maharaji's programming turn premies into morons?' I don't know how it works, but I think he cons us into co-operating with him in this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 15:42:32 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: PaulR Subject: Yes, well I'm blushing Message: Much of what you post in this forum Jim is utter rubbish. My assessment of your posts here is that you must be following GM's directive Sweet. You also said: Also Jim, Rick, Scott; stop for a moment and consider the hardships which millions of people endure daily which are much greater than the amount that you consider youselves ripped of by GM. And be grateful. Fine! But you gotta understand, my new friend, Maharaji's the only person in the world that got captured my mind and body for eight years, putting my life on hold so to speak. Did I say this was the worst thing that ever happened to anyone? Of course not. Your point is ridiculous. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 15:54:47 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Now, that I'm composed Message: If I met GM, then I should wait to see if he were to make an offer of amends, which I do not require. Then if that were offered I would ask him to help me find the woman in the NY Ashram. That's all. Yes, under the circumstances you describe in your post to me, I would still (to my best ability) forgive. Oh, Paul, you're really avoiding the whole point here. (By the way, Rick wasn't being picky. He was just pointing out the obvious way in which you side-stepped everything above). Anyway, the more interesting question, the one I tried to pose, is what happens when GM not only fails to 'offer amends' but boasts that he did nothing wrong? Apparently that's EXACTLY what he did at Wembley, isn't it? Told the premies that his 'enemies' were slagging him here over old decisions all of which he stands by as 'excellent'. So, tell me, what would you do in THAT situation? No amends but the contrary. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 23:18:39 (EST)
From: red heart Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yes, well I'm blushing Message: so you were so powerless, Jim? you didn't want to be there? you could have walked out at any time and you know it. if you weren't really getting anything out of it, why in the heck did you stay eight years? it was your choice, jim. yours. Maharaji did not make you do anything. you responded and apparently laid a whole lot of trips on yourself. it's your own doing, jim. your own. can't you see it? and Maharaji is your scapegoat. which is a big shame, because he has so much to offer, but you are so busy blaming him that you can't see it. 'tis a pity. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 01:53:34 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: red heart Subject: Yes, well I'm blushing Message: red heart, This is getting really tiresome. We show you the quotes... tell you waht. Let's just wait a bit. Didn't Jethro say he had the old Initiator Handbook around somewhere? Let's wait for him to get it, 'kay? If you want to deny how heavy the guilt trip was, fine. It just makes you look desparate. You're not sincere, red heart, you're in premie mode. I wish we could all take polygraphs or something. THAT would be interesting. I forget, did you ever live in the ashram? When? When did you get knowledge by the way? If you said, I forgot. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 09:50:39 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yes, well I'm blushing Message: Fine! But you gotta understand, my new friend, Maharaji's the only person in the world that got captured my mind and body for eight years, putting my life on hold so to speak. Did I say this was the worst thing that ever happened to anyone? Of course not. Your point is ridiculous. Jim you never take responsibility for spending 8 years of your life how YOU chose THEN whether it was right or wrong, stupid or smart. Jim it was an experience you had. We all had some good, some bad experiences. If you stop blaming Maharaji for CAPTURING your youth you might work out what you are so bitter about now from 'losing' your youth - which is obviously that you feel you are wasting your life NOW in some way. There is no past, don't you get that? There's just leftovers of NOW. There's debris, and there's now. So how do you feel NOW Jim? and who you gonna blame? What are you going to do about how yuo feel now? Can't change the past, Jim, it's gone. (I know you're going to hate me for all these posts but I'm just saying things I've been thinking inside for a long time. I'm 'de-Jimming myself'. If you get me thrown off thsi Forum for sayign all this, fine. By the way, are you the one who pays for the Forum? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 11:07:42 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: stalking@freewheeling.com To: Judex Subject: Yes, well I'm blushing Message: Judex: I've decided not to post for awhile, except in this case because I don't have your email address. You know that you've got my support, and I respect the way you're working on your project, and the way you express yourself about it. Regards, Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 15:54:40 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: PaulR Subject: Response Re:Forgiveness. Message: Dear PaulR, I haven't read much of this thread or of any in the last, almost week now and just see you in the hot seat here. That may or may not be a good place for you right now. I have been there myself and it has always resulted in something positive when all was said and done but I know it can be hard to get through. I can't say I agree with all that you say about BM and am not alert enough at the moment to discuss it, something about your still feeling grateful to BM, I think. I am not sorry I was a premie but then I didn't have a bad experience in DLM but I received K from a mahatma so I don't even feel that BM gave it to me, why he does it himself now, I guess. I think he hurts people and whether it is because he is evil or stupid I don't know but bottom line I don't care why I think he should be responsible for his actions. Hope this makes some sense. I'd be more lucid after 12 hours sleep! I am all for forgiveness and have seen it make my life much better but that action doesn't, for me include gratefulness toward the source. The act of forgiveness can mend wounds and heal relationships or it can just heal the forgiver, that is the type of healing I feel BM deserves from those he has hurt. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 07:45:10 (EST)
From: Richard Email: r2harris@plymouth.ac.uk To: Everyone Subject: Hi y'all Message: Dear Everyone, I'm having real problems getting access to a terminal at the moment. My own machine has serious gremlins and I miss talking to you guys. So I though I would make the most of this opportunity to comment on some recent posts concerning people trying to find good things to say about Maharaji. As I see it the following rules apply. 1. If he is Satguru then pretty much everything he does is cool and all the nonsense he talks is cool 'cause his very presence is darshan etc. However, if he is Satguru then he is also responsible for all the premies, their feelings, well-being, material health. 2. If he is a teacher, then he has no responsibility for the premies but he has to act as an example of what he is teaching and his words have to make sense. As far as I can make out he wants the best of both worlds since he talks shit, acts like a fool and wants no responsibility whatsofuckingever. In my book this makes him totally undefendable and he deserves support from nobody. genially yours Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 09:54:34 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Richard Subject: Hi y'all Message: Dear Richard, God it is good to hear from you. I've been hoping things are well with you and yours. Of course, I agree with all you've posted here. You sound good and strong, hope that is the case. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 10:05:25 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Richard Subject: Hi y'all Message: Hi (or 'hey') to you too, Richard. I had definitely noticed your absence, and was hoping that you were still around. Glad it is just your computer that is having problems. regards from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 06:42:45 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Premies couples posting Message: I'm wondering if there is any link between those famous couples: premieJi/Red heels and some others in the past, I'm not sure I remember their names, you'll help me. They post here for a while, helping each other, then disappear, then an other one shows up ..... Good old recipe: go give them 'satsang'? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 11:37:26 (EST)
From: Iola Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Premies posting Message: A premie friend I was speaking to last night said that all you you folks on this net might be crazy. I told her that everyone seemed well educated and rational to me. She said that I had opened Pandora's box and would have to close it again. I told her I was devasted and didn't have many beliefs left (shatter glass-he wasn't kidding). She said to carry on. This is someone I have known for 24 years. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 12:38:52 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Iola Subject: We're in our mind! Message: She said that I had opened Pandora's box and would have to close it again. We've opened the mind box, the door of m&k's cage ..... and we'll keep it open! They'll have to, sooner or later anyway, like everybody else. I hope so anyway. Some premies died in that cage. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:02:15 (EST)
From: red heart Email: None To: Iola Subject: believe yourself Message: believe yourself, Iola. that's something i learned way before i even encountered Maharaji: if you believe others more than you believe yourself (Maharaji and ex-premies included!) then you will find out what it is to be really crazy!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:22:22 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: red heart Subject: believe yourself Message: Ah yes, I remember like it was yesterday... 'Don't enjoy yourself... enjoy Guru Maharaj Ji!' What puke. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 23:31:08 (EST)
From: red heart Email: None To: Rick Subject: believe yourself Message: that puke is your own, Rick. that was never a tenet. geez. is that really what you made it out to be? if so, you really missed the boat altogether. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 00:03:34 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: red heart Subject: believe yourself Message: Well, yes, red heart, everyone has puke, spiritually speaking, and so does your fraudalent guru maharaj ji! Guru used to say he was the Lord and ask people to surrender the reigns of their life to him. He couldn't deliver and he still doesn't. Does it bother you that your plastic guru is being exposed here? Can't leave it alone, huh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:14:39 (EST)
From: Paul R Email: pgrobinson@hotmail.com To: Iola Subject: Premies posting Message: Dear Iola, Thank you for posting. I treasure your postings here. I assure you that you have beliefs left. Someone once said that if you leave a bottle of milk standing; the cream will rise to the top. That was 25 years ago and the person was in a a place which didn't have homogenized milk. Premies live in a world where their intellect is being continually homogenized (and pasteurized too.). In order that it all appear to be of the same consistency. Every experience you have ever had, including all of those as a premie, has become a part of your personal spiritual experience. Be still and experience yourself. good wishes pr Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:23:33 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Paul R Subject: metaphor of the week Message: Premies live in a world where their intellect is being continually homogenized (and pasteurized too.). In order that it all appear to be of the same consistency. Paul, I know it's only Tuesday but I'm willing to vote already. Thanks Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 12:58:24 (EST)
From: red heart Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Premies couples posting Message: i have no idea who premieJi is, don't know his name (or hers). we just happen to be experiencing something true, so it's only natural our experiences support each other. no secret alliance here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:57:38 (EST)
From: x Email: no To: red heart Subject: Premies couples posting Message: red heart, You're such a renegade premie. You almost have a mind of your own, (pun intended). I'm really impressed that you have so much autonomy and still manage to devote your entire life to a cult and its charismatic leader. You are truly a maverick. sincerely, x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 23:25:33 (EST)
From: red heart Email: None To: x Subject: Premies couples posting Message: well, i am having a grand ole time, x. and yes, i do have a mind of my own. thanks for noticing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 03:39:43 (EST)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Judex Subject: To Judex. How to Live. Power. Message: Judex, When it comes to how the universe came about and creating our own realities,well, I don't know about that stuff. How to live? That is a challenge that I try to meet on a day to day basis. I don't have any profound answers in those other departments. Responsibility for what exactly? I have a son who is well looked after and have chosen to home school him, because he was not happy in a number of schools that he tried. I feel a responsibility to try to reach my full potential and help humanity in a way that is compatable with my abilities. At this stage I feel the best thing I have done for the world is to heal myself and to bring up a child in a loving,environment. My experience of the divine is fairly simplistic and quite often I don't really know anything at all! I hope you don't take that the wrong way! I don't believe in beliefs being ultimate things to take seriously. I live a pretty ordinary life. But have come through some extrordinary phases that have helped to get me out of my head, so to speak and more into my heart. As far as power is concerned, I aspire to be more and more in touch with that part of me that naturally feels empowered and is not a state that can be sought after with a lust for power at all. To be more at peace inwardly. that's all for now best regards Mirabai Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 03:46:37 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Mirabai Subject: To Judex. How to Live. Power. Message: thanks, sweetie. 'I got a head full of ideas that are driving me insane it's a shame the way she makes me scrub the floor...' Your post was very nice and comforting to read. Sorry for being on such a trip. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 05:08:51 (EST)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Judex Subject: To Judex. How to Live. Power. Message: thanks, Judex, for you appreciation. I don't see that you're on a trip. best regards Mirabai Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:33:28 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Skye Boat Song Message: I keep hearing the words to this old Scottish lullaby that's played to the tune of a waltz by a band with the improbable name 'Wild Asparagus.' At one time I'd have thought this a doubtful lyric, since it seems such a royalist sentiment. In its original incarnation, however, it celebrated an important chapter in the liberal rebellion that eventually led to the American Revolution (with apologies to our British brothers and sisters). It concerns the safekeeping of 'Bonnie Prince Charlie,' after the failure of the Scottish rebellion. The sailors carried the prince to safety on the Isle of Skye. I've recently been thinking of the passenger as myself, or the self in all of us, that has engaged the often lonely battle against the presumptive authority that claimed to save us from ourselves. To me the website is the boat, and the 'sea' is the sometimes cold and sad distances that are the true benefactors of those who take responsibility for their own lives. Put together with the music it gives me goosebumps: 'Speed bonnie boat, like a bird on the wing, onward,' the sailor's cry. Loud the winds howl, loud the waves roar, thunderclouds rend the air. Baffled our foes, who stand on the shore. Follow, they will not dare. 'Speed bonnie boat, like a bird on the wing, onward,' the sailor's cry. Carry the lad that is born to be king over the sea blue sky. Though the waves leap soft shall ye sleep. The ocean's a royal bed. Rock'd in the deep, the flora will keep. Watched by your weary head. 'Speed bonnie boat, like a bird on the wing, onward,' the sailor's cry. Carry the lad that is born to be king over the sea blue sky. 'Speed bonnie boat, like a bird on the wing, onward,' the sailor's cry. Carry the lad that is born to be king over the sea blue sky. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:55:17 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Modest correction Message: I'm not sure that people get the same thing out of that lullaby that I have. You may need to waltz it with someone special once. Anyway, I noted a slight correction in the lyric. (I dropped the 'ed' from 'watched' so the phrase reads 'keep watch by your weary head') It's not like English is my first language or anything. The Skye Boat Song 'Speed bonnie boat, like a bird on the wing, onward,' the sailor's cry. Loud the winds howl. Loud the waves roar. The thunderclouds rend the air. Baffled our foes, who stand on the shore. Follow, they will not dare. 'Speed bonnie boat, like a bird on the wing, onward,' the sailor's cry. Carry the lad that is born to be king over the sea blue sky. Though the waves leap soft shall ye sleep. The ocean's a royal bed. Rock'd in the deep, the flora will keep watch by your weary head. 'Speed bonnie boat, like a bird on the wing, onward,' the sailor's cry. Carry the lad that is born to be king over the sea blue sky. 'Speed bonnie boat, like a bird on the wing, onward,' the sailor's cry. Carry the lad that is born to be king over the sea blue sky. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:54:27 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Modest correction Message: Scott I'm not going to let anyone who calls me gushy stop me from saying whatever I like. I just want you to know that. However if you find me gushy, please let me know and I will stop salivating immediately. Interesting that you are using the imagery of the boat, which M himself does, borrowed as we know. Anyway I agree, it is good to be in the company of sailors. My whole intention of posting this was so that your post would not be alone, as others mentioned it feels lonely. I offer you the support of a reply. Yes, I heard you, I am here, (mine is the dark ship ha ha) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 10:14:00 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Judex Subject: Modest correction Message: Judex: It's alright to get gushy over a Scottish or an Irish song, in my book. They're hard to resist. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 08:19:42 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Scott T. Subject: Modest correction Message: Briefly; shouldn't it be 'over the sea to Skye' and not 'sea blue Skye' That's how I remember it to be, anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 10:05:17 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Modest correction Message: David: You are probably right. I was transcribing the lyric and the two phrases sound very much alike. Anyway, I sort of like the topsy turvy image of my version. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 10:27:56 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: I checked Message: David: It is almost impossible to tell whether they are singing 'to' or 'blue' although I would have to go with 'blue' if I were to make a choice. They may, of course, be singing the wrong lyric. They're Americans. The image of 'sea-blue sky' as opposed to 'sky-blue sea' sounded like the kind of phrasing you'd find in a lullaby, as in 'Winkin, Blinkin and Nod.' Next time I see them I'll ask. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 00:10:08 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: I checked Message: I wonder if you have read the 'Frog and Toad' 'children's' stories (can't remember who wrote them.) If you haven't, I think you would enjoy them. They are delightful. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 09:57:36 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Scott T. Subject: The Skye Boat Song Message: Dear Scott, This post has touched me like nothing else I've ever read from you. So beautiful and touching. Thank you dear. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 10:43:59 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Robyn Subject: The Skye Boat Song Message: Robyn: Thanks for supporting my trans-rational mutterings. You should hear it with the music. If you're in PA I think Wild Asparagus plays around there. They're based in Boston, but with their 'caller,' George Marshall, play up and down the Atlantic coast, with a few trips out West. Heck, they probably even have a website. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 11:51:50 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Scott T. Subject: The Skye Boat Song Message: Dear Scott, Suprized to hear they are based in Boston. Jessica lives there and there is a huge population of Irish immigrants and I thought the Irish and the Scottish were at odds. I am remembering that from grade school and I guess that has been some time ago. :( Have you ever heard of the band Cordilla's Dad, Jessica turned me on to them. I think they sound Irish or Scottish but I think she said they are American. Love their sound anyway. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 12:12:04 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Robyn Subject: The Skye Boat Song Message: Robyn, the Irish and Scottish are not at odds, it's the celtic nations of the Irish and Scottish vs. the British colonizers -- am I right there, Sir David? If you and Scott are into sentimental Scottish ballads, the very best I have ever found are from Silly Wizard, both as the group Silly Wizard, and after they broke up, individually as Phil Cunningham and Andy M. Stewart. Check it out! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:18:56 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Joy Subject: The Skye Boat Song Message: Interesting, the view you must get in America of these islands. The British and Southern Irish get on very well. The British and Northern Irish get along fine also except for a tiny minority of trouble makers in the northern provinces. They have made it bad for everyone. The troble stems from the hard-line protestants and the hard-line Catholics in the north. They're in a minority and most people in the north are sick of them. The Southern Irish are tired of all the fighting in the north too and want no part of it. There are no real divisions between Irish people and mainland British people. Many Irish people live and work quite happily in Britain and many British people go on holiday in Ireland. There's no animosity. It's the same with the Scots too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:53:20 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: Sir David Subject: The Skye Boat Song Message: Then why is there a movement in Scotland to withdraw from the British Isles and have their own parliament? Same in Northern Ireland? Also, in Wales, too, I heard. Maybe it is about time the British stopped laying claim to all their neighbors' land and let these countries rule themselves? Weren't these the ancient Celtic lands which were forcibly colonized by the British over many centuries, with oppression and mass suffering and poverty of the native peoples as the result (i.e. the Highland Clearances, the Irish Famine and Penal Laws, etc.)? I'm not much of a historian, but the fact that people in all these countries today get along alright on the surface doesn't hide past injustices, which in many instances still need to be righted in some way. Just my 'distorted' American perspective. It tends to make the traditional music all the more poignant, knowing some of the history. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:56:48 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: Joy Subject: Oops Message: Guess that first line should read 'withdraw from the United Kingdom' instead of the 'British Isles'. Might be kind of hard for Scotland and Wales to break away from the physical country! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:08:11 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@binternet.com To: Joy Subject: The Skye Boat Song Message: Most people, including our current government, who live on the mainland, do actually want a united Ireland and we don't lay claim to the northern provinces. The problem has always bee, how to do it peacefully. It is the hard-line protestants in Ulster (Northern Ireland) who are totally opposed to a united Ireland and not the mainland British. If we relinquished control or Northern Ireland now there would be a bloodbath as the IRA and the Protestants fought their civil war. This is why the peace process is taking so long. A united Ireland is on the cards but the South of Ireland (Eire) don't want to unite at the moment and take on the warring factions of the north. It's a volotile situation which needs careful handling. In Scotland and Wales there is no great Anti-English feeling. The Scots were rightfully angry with the old Tory government and they were pleased to accept their own Scottish parliment once Tony Blair came to power. But the majority of the Scots don't want to break from the union with Britain and that was clearly born out in the last election when the Scottish National party did extremely badly. Economically, Scotland depends on England and now they have their own parliment to make their own laws and policies, they are happy. Of course, you will always get some people who want to split from the union but they really are in a minority. Wales is also dependent on the union with Britain, economically. Very few there have ever wanted to break the tie with England. Their new Welsh assembly has made it more easy for them to create their own local policy now. The history of the British Empire is just that - history. Many generations have passed since those days of British domination. It's ancient history and today's generations don't tend to dwell on it. After all, it was not our doing but our ancestors'. The old atrocities are long forgotten and not relevant to today's society. You have similar atrocities which happened in America with the slaughter of the native Indians. Nobody blames the present generations for all those old misdeeds. Long ago and far away. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 16:09:28 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Sir David Subject: The Scottish Enlightenment Message: David, Joy et al: I agree with David. The 'Irish troubles' amount to the last remaining vestige of the Reformation, and have become hopelessly anachronistic. The Scottish Rebellion (and the American Revolution) were stages in a larger liberal revolution (called by many historians the 'Whig revolution') which actually began in Scotland. The founders of the 'Scottish Enlightenment:' John Locke, Adam Smith, David Hume, and Adam Ferguson (he was concerned with power and change) were all important figures for England as well as the US. They were an enormous influence on Jefferson and the other founders. Locke's words concerning the 'natural rights' to 'life, liberty and the pursuit of property' were only modestly altered by Jefferson. The Blair government has mandated the establishment of a Scottish Parliament as well as a Welsh Assembly, although the autonomy granted to those two bodies differs. The Welsh, as I understand it, are somewhat perplexed as to what they ought to do with their new assembly, and there's a lot of debate in Wales about its role. The Scots have more autonomy, and are somewhat more tickled. Anyway, the establishment of neither body was the result of concerted demands on the Brits. It was more like a political move by Blair. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 06:02:30 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Scott T. Subject: The Scottish Enlightenment Message: True Scott. It was a smart move by Blair. He wiped out the Scottish National Party at a stroke and increased his support in Scotland to almost 100%. Not that that was difficult, since it was already a Labour stronghold. The Welsh Assembly is a bit of an odd fish. What do they do with it? It's another smart move by Blair to counter any opposition that may have been brewing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 14:53:48 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Joy Subject: The Skye Boat Song Message: Joy, as you know, I like the Silly Wizard/Cunningham/Stewart stuff, but the last album I got by Cuningham/Stewart (and I think there is another Stewart brother) really sucked. I was disappointed. It wasn't under the Silly Wizard name. It has kind of scared me off from buying anything since. Have you gotten anything by them recently? In my experience, there are a lot of Irish (north and south)who still resent the British, although in Ireland, the Irish and English are so inter-married, that it's hard to say who is Irish and who isn't. It's funny that Irish people remember that Henry VII closed all the monestaries and Cromwell was even worse. Then there was the year of the French and the Irish paid for their support of Napoleon. Then there was that potato famine and the British sent grain out of the country under armed guard, while the Irish starved. Of course, if it wasn't for the famine, some of my ancestors would never have come to the states. In fact, some of the Irish in the states are more fervently anti-British, than the Irish still in Ireland. They are one of the major financial supporters of the IRA. Joy, what was that Irish pub in San Francisco we used to go to (where Michael Black used to sing) that openly raised money for the IRA? Was it the Ploughy Stars? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:53:42 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: JW Subject: The Skye Boat Song Message: Joe, that was the Plough & Stars up on Clement St. I don't know that they openly raised money for the IRA, that was probably Ireland's 32 up on Geary. Although I care about the 'Nationalist' Irish cause I don't support the IRA or their violent methods. I don't know which album you are referring to regarding the Silly Wizard guys, but I, personally, have never heard anything from any of them that was less than brilliant. The other Cunningham brother is the fiddler Johnny, and he has done some fabluous work with Kevin Burke and Christian LeMaitre as the Celtic Fiddle Festival, or something like that, can't remember the exact name -- I saw them recently and they were a knockout. I hope, David, that I didn't sound anti-British in my posts, I was not trying to. I have a great love of England, and the English, and moved there from America at the age of 17, just as soon as I could. These terrible things did happen in the past, though, and are a part of the land and history whether the present generations like it or not. It helps to know about it to understand some of the current conflict in N.Ireland. I also know that it is not the British who keep themselves there, but the hardline Protestant Unionists who insist on continued British involvement. Hopefully this peace process will help things sort themselves out at last, and stop people from murdering each other in retaliation for ancient or current injustices. A lot of us here in America with Celtic ancestry are following it pretty closely, and care about the situation a lot. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:23:08 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Joy Subject: The Skye Boat Song Message: That's right, the Plough and the Stars. 'The Ploughy Stars' is in Berkeley. Joy, they DID have a collection box for the IRA at the Plough and the Stars. I'm not sure if it really went to the IRA, though. It may have gone to the purchase of more pints. To be fair, the former conservative government in the UK had such a thin majority, that it needed the votes of the N. Ireland protestant MPs to function. Hence there was a stanglehold on peace negotiations. Also Margaret Thatcher did a lot, in my opinion, to exacerbate the situation by being unduly harsh and uncompromising in Northern Ireland. I think she set peace back many years by some of her policies. I can see how the protestants might fear being a part of the republic. Hell, it was only a few years ago that divorce finally became legal in the republic. The church had such a stranglehold on the government. But it's also my understanding that due to higher birth rates and some immigration, it's only a matter of time until the catholics will be the majority in the north. I think they are something like 45% now. So, it would seem to be in the interests of the protestants to get this thing resolved while they are still in the majority. I guess Ian Paisley is the Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson/Gary Bauer/Lou Sheldon of Ireland. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:00:22 (EST)
From: Saxon Celt Email: saxon@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Scott T. Subject: The Skye Boat Song Message: As I was taght it, the second Jacobite Rebellion ended with the massacre at Culloden in 1746, which has been remembered -as if it were yesterday!- with great gnashing of teeth and wailing of bagpipes for the last quarter millenium (The Flowers of the Forest is another classic gut-wrenching pipe tune from this era). Following the rout, 'Bonnie Prince Charlie' (Stuart), last of the Catholic claimants to the British throne escaped to the Isle of Skye by night in a small fishing boat, disguised as a woman, thereby evading capture from the English. There are still living Scots who believe a rightful successor from the Stuart line will one day return to claim the British Crown, just like some hippies are still waiting for King Arthur. We shall see... (Roll on the secular republic, I say!) So, Scott, the orignal lyric is definitely 'over the sea to Skye'. Sorry. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:14:59 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Saxon Celt Subject: Over the sea to Skye Message: SC: So, Scott, the orignal lyric is definitely 'over the sea to Skye'. Sorry. I figured as much. Wild Asparagus 'drops' the word in the song so that it's almost inaudible. However, there was no 'T' sound at all and there did sound to me like a more muffled 'B.' I wonder if they got the lyric right themselves, or if they just need some lessons in elocution? -Scott PS: I still think they ought to change the lyric, though. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 10:46:25 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Flora and lyrics Message: Hi Scott - more lyrical deconstruction. 'Flora' was actually a person - Flora McDonald, daughter of the man who rowed the boat to Skye. She lent Charles her clothes to disguise himself, and in some versions of this tale, rode in the boat with him. Also, regarding 'exact' lyrics, there's a good quote from Robert Hunter (Grateful Dead lyricist) in the preface to 'Box of Rain', which is his book of lyrics to songs he's written. He said: My versions of these songs are no more 'the real ones' than those that may have spoken to some of you from a garbled tape recorded twenty years ago. I hope that seeing the intended words will provide you with an interesting, if not always convincing, variant on the words some of you actually heard. I agree, and think you should keep your version of 'Over the Sea to Skye', since it obviously speaks to you personally. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 19:53:49 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Ugliest thought in the world Message: I would have thought that doubting K. and M. might well be more likely to send someone over the edge than believing in M. and practicing K. Certainly the way it is these days. Just a thought. Premieji said this. It is the ugliest thing I think I've ever heard. Seriously. Premieji, my firend Dave, for what it's worth, did not want to doubt Maharaji's divinty. That was the whole problem. He was all of 20 or maybe 21 and had compeltely gotten into being a premie. Anyone reading this who remembers Dave Weiner knows that's so. He did what many of us did in those early years, he tried to actually, honestly surrender his life. Unfortunately, the human mind is not that simple a mechanism to fuse, at least not permanently. Doubts creep in. If you were there then, in those heady days of 1973 & 4, you'd recall that our fervour was so great, the moment one lost focus on the goal, even a little, the incongruity was startling. It was best to do all we could to stay absolutely immersed in SS&M, every single moment of our lives. As Rawat warned us, the mind was our evil possessor and the more we 'grew' in Knowledge, the more it would fight to keep us. (Does anybody have a copy of the letter from Maharaji about the mind new initiates would get in their knowlege packets?). I recall seeing my parents once or twice during that period. How bizarre to go visit people who actually thought Jim Heller existed and wasn't just a thin veil of samscara, shrouding yet another drop of infinite Guru Maharaj Ji-ness. I was embarrassed that they related to me like a person. I'd learnt so much more. I'd surrendered so much. I had to fight to hold my ground and not get dragged back in to their darkness. Aw how comforting to return to the ashram where my real family was, fellow brothers and sisters devoted to taht one common goal, complete surrender of ego and identity. Dave was full-tilt. Unfortunately, he started to wrestle with his mind and couldn't shake it. Like a kamikazee in wartime Japan, he did what he thought he ahd to in the circumstances, he killed the mind that was keeping him from loving his Lord. premieji, you are a very despicable person. Why? Because you know exactly what I'm talking about. What you've said here ... I don't think I could ever forgive it. What sheer nonsense! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 06:54:40 (EST)
From: premieJi Email: None To: Jim Subject: Ugliest act in the world Message: Jim, While I'd prefer not to debate over your friend's death, since it is YOU who bring's up the subject, let's talk straight ,shall we? Firstly, in my profession I hear about a lot of suicides. The rate of suicides amongst young men in affluent countries is very high. In fact its higher than statistics show because of the number of 'accidents' which are in fact suicides. Its also quite common for friends to be shocked by the unexpected nature of the event. So perhaps your friend may have suicided with or without M. Secondly, I and others I know were getting to the edge of things ourselves back then and we were on a self destructive path in one way or another. We attribute our survival to M's intervention. Thirdly, as you mentioned, I was around M. in the early 70's, and one thing he always stressed was the PRECIOUSNESS of HUMAN LIFE. I also distinctly remember it being well known by premies back then that he had said that of all the things we could do, the WORST THING that we could do was to TAKE A HUMAN LIFE, either OUR OWN, or SOMEONE ELSE'S. So, I don't think it makes much sense to somehow blame M for David's death. Personally, I reckon that thinking that of M. is an ugly thought, and ACCUSING him of being responsible for a death to somehow add fuel to your crusade against him is a truly ugly act. gotta go now. Despicably yours, premieJi Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 07:17:45 (EST)
From: passing thru Email: None To: premieJi Subject: Ugliest act in the world Message: You're absolutely right, premieji.I don't think I would have lasted too much longer without K. Jim's desire to blame M for his friend's death suggests that Jim believes M is some sort of omnipotent god. He isn't. He teaches Knowledge free of charge to those people who want it and if they don't like it they don't have to have it or practice it. I have friends with and without Knowledge and quite a few who are not as focused on M as much as they once were, the choice is theirs. If an obsessive person becomes obsessive, who is to blame? Accepting responsibilty for your own c Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 08:15:31 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: premieJi and passing thru Subject: Ugliest act in the world Message: Dear unknown persons hiding behind secret ID's, I think what Jim is trying to say to you politely is that you cannot possibly know what someone else perceives as reality. For all of us who really and truly wanted to realise God within ourselves and believed what Maharaji told us, when it began to dawn on us that it wasn't working and that Maharaji wasn't Satguru, like he said he was, we were so high up, so isolated from our friends and relatives, so divorced from a touchable reality that we might as well have been on bad acid. It dosn't help for Maharaji to deny that he said what he said or for you to support him in this when the truth is evident. To have pain, suffering and zero self-esteem is bad enough without people like you trying to imply that it is self-imposed. There but for fortune guys! You may be made to eat your words yet. D'you think Maharaji will thank you for your efforts on his behalf? Hey! don't hold your breath. If an obsessive person becomes obsessive, who is to blame? What is this? Is Maharaji teaching psychology now or are you working for the tobacco companies and got this forum confused with some anti-smoking group. You know your arguments are so stupid it's hard to find the energy to work up a decent reply. Premieji, it's simple, either you weren't around in the 70's or you're lying. Passing thru', do it. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 11:28:46 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Richard Subject: Ugly human beings Message: You know your arguments are so stupid it's hard to find the energy to work up a decent reply. Premieji, it's simple, either you weren't around in the 70's or you're lying. Passing thru', do it. Thanks Richard. You're absolutely right. I argue for a living, eh? And yet I find it so hard to muster any response to these guys. That's why I call this poisonous blend of denial, smugness, insincere revisionism and callousness so 'ugly'. It stands to reason that its proponents are allowing themselves to be ugly people. This us just so ugly, I really can't deal with it. Dave was NOT obsessive -- before the supposed living Lord worked him up into an 'every moment counts' frenzy. He wasn't desparate -- until he started to lose the battle with his doubts about Maharaji. Maharaji no longer stands by the claims that Dave doubted. Thus Dave's doubts were justified. Dave was right, of course. Yet, in Maharaji's world then there was no room for the simple truth that Maharaji was NOT the Supreme Lord in Human Form here to take each one of us in complete merging, ultimate surrender, ego sacrifice. That was just a crazy, bullshit dream and, of course, it left a field of casualties the morning after. Maharaji's ugliness starts in his refusal to deal with that fact. That's the simple truth. No one can deny it. It doesn't matter how many people think Maharaji made their lives better, that's besides the point. Tell that to Mr. and Mrs. Weiner. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 17:08:50 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Ugly human beings Message: Jim, I assume Maharaji, nor any of the PAM, contacted Dave's parents to convey the lord's condolences at the death of their son, who had dedicated his entire life in Maharaji's ashram. Oh, no. He couldn't do THAT. That might mean actually showing some shread of interest in the life of one of his premies, who wasn't rich and/or in PAM, which he NEVER did. Once again, he demonstrates that total lack of integrity, responsiblilty and maturity for which Maharaji is justly famous. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 12:08:48 (EST)
From: Paul Email: None To: premieJi Subject: Ugliest act in the world Message: More revisionism. I was around in the early 70s (knowledge in 71) and youv'e taken 'preciousness of life' out of context.' M's concern with the preciousness of life was that it enabled premies to behold the perfect master, receive knowledge and become a devotee. M was never concerned with the lives of the premies (except a select few), what conditions they were living in or even in their spiritual development, except for the still spouted platitudes. He certainly didn't care about the life of the reporter who got his skull bashed it by his followers. He was always more concerned with his cars,planes, houses, clothes, strereo equipment, etc. and premies were grateful to give up careers, inheritences , or live in squalor so that the Lord of the Universe could walk on rose petals. You now have so much invested, psychologically/financially/lifewise that you must maintain the selective perception that keeps the M myth alive for you. You can explain away anything by maintaining the two basic premie rules: 1. M is the perfect master 2. If you have any questions or doubts, refer to rule 1 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 05:36:04 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Paul Subject: Ugliest act in the world Message: The argument is sound. Should I blame Brian for what you or I say or do, after reading this web site. Thousands of people, including you, heard exactly the same words and didn't commit suicide. Communication is not the sole responsibility of the speaker, the listener is also responsible for how they interpret what is said. I think Jim's words sum up this site very well, 'it doesn't matter how many people think Maharaji made their lives better, that's beside the point'. Why? Because in order to hate completely you have to eliminate any possibility of love. Just as to blame completely you have to eliminate Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 08:33:26 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Hey, Passin' Thru Message: Passing thru, I for one do not blame MJ entirely for the death of my friend who committed suicide. Ultimately that person is responsible. However at the time that this person joined DLM, knowledge was proclaimed to be a cure-all for unhappiness. It was supposed to give you peace. DLM and 'the Lord' put my friend's soul into a bottle instead of freeing him. So I hold MJ responsible for HIS PART in presenting to this person a belief that was NOT true. I also hold MJ responsible for his revisionism which broke my friend's heart when didn't understand how the Lord of the Universe could go back on so many things that he said. If you want to call that an interpretation on the part of the listener, go right ahead but I disagree with you. No hate in my heart, just sadness VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:06:23 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: VP Subject: VP Message: Dear VP,It is not just that Knowledge didn't work for your friend but that he came to the conclusion that nothing would. Not his friends, his family, his job, his talents, the future, life itself. For many people including me, what M claims for Knowledge is true but it requires a constant and correct effort every day. Don't do it and its gone. As for M's revisionism, his message has been the same for 30 years, 'listen to your heart,what you are looking for is within you'. What has changed has changed as a result of his own growth and learning. Surely one expects a 20 year old Californian to be radically different from a 13 year old from India. And a 40 year old to be considerably more experienced and wiser than they were at 20. He didn't claim to be perfect, he claimed to teach something that enabled us to experience the perfect.And that hasn't changed at all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:39:43 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Pasing thru Message: You stupid fuckhead: Maharaji claimed claimed that not a leaf shook on a tree without His grace. He claimed that His little drops of mercy could save mankind. He claimed that he would establish peace on earth. He claimed that if you surrendered the reigns of your life to Him, he would give Eternal Peace. He claimed he was merged with perfection; that Jesus and Krishna taught the same Knowledge He teaches. He claimed he was the fucking Lord, you idiot! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 16:21:06 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: There is life after MJ Message: Yes, obviously my friend had given up hope, but would he if not involved with MJ? You certainly can't know that for sure having never known him. I can't for sure even though I did know him. How can we really know the final thing that drives someone to take such action? I do know some things, though. I do know that this person loved Maharaj Ji with all his heart. He was a total devotee and was completely and utterly lost in knowledge and in MJ. I know that anything that MJ said was taken to heart and believed as the gospel. I know that if my friend was feeling sad, he probably thought that there was something wrong with him. Afterall, he had the ulitmate gift from the Perfect Master. Why wasn't this making him happy? There must be something wrong with him! One day my friend told me that,'M is changing things. It is going to be so much harder to get Knowledge. He promises that things are going to get even better.' This is what I mean by revisionism. He had fear in his voice as he spoke the words. Fear mixed with exhilaration, like a child who is about to skip school and is afraid of getting caught. Someone doing something that they know is wrong but is doing it anyway. I thought he was sad and disappointed, too, even as he spoke these words. I often wonder what he was thinking at that very moment. Because my friend was sharing such an exciting secret, I remember where we were standing and what the room smelled like as he told me. I certainly remember the nuances of his face and mannerisms as he spoke. Yet the perfect peace that is knowledge didn't give him perfect peace. It didn't save him or help him. It just made him more miserable and more miserable as I saw him practicing and trying to live the lifestyle of Satsang, Service and Meditation. I am sorry, but I know what I saw. We could discuss it all day, so let's just agree to disagree. If this lifestyle makes you happy, passing thru, I cannot argue with you about that. But if anyone else out there is miserable, you can leave. You do not have to be afraid. And there is life after Maharaji. Stick around for a while and find out... VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 19:13:34 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: VP Subject: I agree Message: Dear VP I appreciate your honesty. As you said,'How can we really know the final thing that drives someone to such an action'. You're right, we can't, the most insignificant and irrelevant straw can break a camel's back. That is why I took issue with the blun Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 19:31:55 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: VP Subject: Sometimes you DO know Message: I can tell you without hesitation that Dave Weiner was NOT headed for suicide in 1974 without Maharaji's horror show running in his head. But would you ever concede that, pt? No, of course not. Why? Because you can't. Doing so triggers a few unacceptable results that you can't live with. So, you can shuck and jive all you want. You ween't there, I was. You're just squinting at the picture trying to make it disappear. I'm looking at it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 20:41:01 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Jim Subject: But don't listen Message: The argument is irrefutable. If 1,000 hear the same words and all are not in absolute agreement with every aspect of the message, there is only one conclusion; people must interpret what they hear according to their Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 21:27:53 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Ha ha ha Message: The argument is irrefutable. If 1,000 hear the same words and all are not in absolute agreement with every aspect of the message, there is only one conclusion; people must interpret what they hear according to their Oh you bumpkin! That's simply not true. It's certainly not true in the law now is it? Think about product liability. Companies aren't necessarily liable for for inadequately warning people of various hazards just because some people don't understand the warnings they do post. That would be ridiculous. No, it all funnels down to a question of reasonableness: how would a reasonable person have interpreted the label? But, you know, there are special cases where the special liability extends even further. Particularly situations of fiduciary (i.e. trust) relationships. If a stranger tells you to go drink a gallon of gasoline for that full calonic effect and you get a little sick, you could, in certain circumstances, succesfully sue the guy. He might even be criminally responsible. (Criminial negiligence if he was reckless or maybe even consturctive assault if he intended for you to get hurt). But if the guy's your doctor, whoa nelly! Now we're talking major responsibility. And believe me, skeezeeks, it don't matter that he told ten patients to drink the gas and only seven did and of those only five got sick. That's just evidence that might fall back on the issue of what would have been a fair interpretation of his words when he gave the advice. In other words, if he regularly told his patients, as a kind of joke, 'hey, go drink a gallon of gas!' and it was obviously a joke, he might be able to defend himself on the basis that no reasonable person would have taken him seriously. But -- if you're still with me -- in a fiduciary relationship (e.g. mother/child, teacher/student, master/slave, Lord of the Universe/devotee), it's not general reasonableness so much as forseebility. Should the docrot have known that this particular patient might take him seriously? Now, in Maharaji's case, he said a whole lot of shit and, at a very minimum, after one premie wigged out and hurt himself or others, Maharaji was on notice that this kind of stuff could happen. No, you don't know what you're talking about. That's for sure. Oh sorry, maybe I'm just not listening properly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:00:15 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: That's so dumb Message: Should I blame Brian for what you or I say or do, after reading this web site. Well, it depends. For example, say Brian and the rest of us were hired by Bal Bhagwan Ji to defame Maharaji, the true master, and imbue his premies' hearts with doubt and confusion. Thus, we published false claims about his past, his present, scandal, scandal, scandal. Again, say none of it was true, we were just doing it for the money. Say, then, that a nice little premie actually believed our lies and got completely despondent. 'Alas,' they cry, 'Maharaji ISN'T the Lord, I've been duped.' a few months later, still unable to shake their grief and depression (of course they stopped meditating because I told them to), they kill themselves. Would we be responsible? Of course we would! You're morally and often legally responsible for the reasonably forseeable effect your words have on people. Maharaji told us that he wasthe Lord, our 'hearts' wanted nothing more than to completely surrender to him and only our evil 'minds' stood in the way of love everlasting. Dave got spooked and hung himself. Direct cause and effect. Maharaji's only possible defense is that what he was saying was true and precarious or not, that was the path of salvation. Some fall on its treacherous climb. Them's the breaks. But is Maharaji willing to stand up for the effect he had on peole then? Be honest, will ya'? Thousands of people, including you, heard exactly the same words and didn't commit suicide. No, but we all got extremely, deeply intent on trying to kill our minds. It's a miracle that more people didn't freak out or really hurt themselves. Testament to human resiliency, no thanks to Rawat. Communication is not the sole responsibility of the speaker, the listener is also responsible for how they interpret what is said. There aren't too many ways you can slice the many quotes of Maharaji I've put up. You want to play that game? I guess it's a measure of how much integrity you've got. Okay, let's play a round. This fly was broken; in the same way, the mind has to be broken. First of all, man has to close his carnal outer dorrs so that he may concentrate his heart on his devotion. Devotion is the stick, and with his devotion and meditation he has to kill this crazy damn fly. In the sme way, mind, too, is strong; it is very big. To a man it seems very pretty, but of course it is a fly. In the same way, our minds in this age of darkness are very strong. The will of this world is so strong. Really it is something that you cannot bear. When the holy man leaves, you are lost. And then these evil powers start acting upon you, and this illusion, which is itself darkness, comes and puts a black sheet over you. Now where to go? Where to go? Where is the path? Alright, go ahead, interpret. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 19:49:12 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Jim Subject: Really Message: To answer your first question: No, you wouldn't be responsible, legally or morally. Parents have tried to sue musicians for lyrics they claim led to the suicide of their children and were, quite correctly, thrown out of court. It is abundantly clear that the same words can have an entirely different effect on different people. Try saying 'Fuck Sadam' in New York and then try it in Iraq. Nothing I read here upsets me in any way whatsoever. The problem, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. As for the interpretation, judging by the language Maharaji must have been quite young.The first analogy that the mind is like a fly is quite apt. It is like a fly, if it is buzzing around disturbing the peace, landing on your lunch, most people will not hesitate to get rid of it. Stick, fly spray or fly screen, whatever will do the trick.If your mind is buzzing around disturbing your peace, you have the same option. Knowledge can get rid of the problem.The analogy of the wise man bringing light to a dark place is commonly used by many teachers. If the light goes away, darkness is the result. In which case finding the right path will be extremely difficult. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 20:56:01 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Unreal Message: Yes, this is when the premie jive gets the most fun. Ah, how I love these moments! Please, go on. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:10:11 (EST)
From: Paul Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Ugliest act in the world Message: I agree with VP that it is a shared responsibility. However, the issue that is often raised in the forum is that M never takes any responsibility for anything, except being the Master. I would really like to know if you can offer any evidence of him acepting responsibility for any of the various messes over the years: i.e. holy family debacle, IRS problems, skull bashing, dumping ashram premies on the street after closing down DLM, various presentations of himself, his total lack of confidence in premies(can't speak about K in public), his lifestyle, etc., etc. ad nauseum. Pretend we were talking about someone else. What would you think about this person? Unfortunately, I don't think premies are capable of applying that level of objectivity revert to Rule # 1. Paul Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 20:26:27 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Paul Subject: Responsibility Message: There is no doubt that a lot of wierd stuff happened. In my experience by far the worst problems were created, and are still created, by premies without Maharaji's knowledge. Many things were done is his name that he would never have allowed. As for the 'Holy' family, it was an Indian concept pushed on a 14 year old boy by his mother that, understandably,took time to overcome. As for his presentation and lifestyle, we all looked pretty funny in the 70's. And finally Maharaji has no problem with people talking about Knowledge, in fact he encourages it. He uses video events so that people can get the facts straight from him and so avoid a lot of the problems this site complains of. RegardsPT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 05:55:51 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Facts...Smacts... Message: He uses video events so that people can get the facts straight from him and so avoid a lot of the problems this site complains of. PT, when you have pulled your head completely out of your anus there is something I would like you to do for me. Go to a 'video event' and write down every fact that you hear. You may need paper, a postage stamp would probably do, that is assuming you can write. Not a certainty, you may have dictated your posts. Anyway, when you have done that, come back here and tell us these wonderful facts, I will give you $10 for each one, don't count on getting your bus fare home. That was good, expecting Maharaji to provide facts at video events is as perverse as watching a Bope Hope fitness video. Come the winter I'm going to collect a bunch of homeless people and we'll come around to warm our hands on your dumb, red face. Stop insulting our intelligence with your stupid, pointless, factless, baseless, inane, self-deluding, destructive, negative, demeaning, marginalising, narrow-minded, spineless, directionless and self-mastabatory clap-trap. love Richard PS On the other hand, if you have something sensible to say..... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |