Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 13

From: Jun 18, 1998

To: Jun 25, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5



Rick -:- Arrogant Little Laughs -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 17:44:58 (EST)
__JW -:- Danny Munter -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 17:57:08 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Danny Munter -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 19:23:54 (EST)
____VP -:- Danny Munter -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:24:42 (EST)
______JW -:- Danny Munter -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:28:40 (EST)
________VP -:- Class reunion? -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:35:20 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Class reunion? -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 09:11:43 (EST)
____________JW -:- Class reunion? -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:26:07 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Embarassing things (post - K) -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:52:33 (EST)
________________JW -:- Embarassing things (post - K) -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 14:09:00 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- Hey, Joe (and Katie) -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:40:27 (EST)
______Mark -:- Danny Munter -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:40:09 (EST)
________JW -:- Danny Munter -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:50:55 (EST)
__________mark -:- Danny Munter -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:43:25 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Arrogant Little Laughs -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 19:22:59 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Arrogant Little Laughs -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 21:35:08 (EST)
__eb -:- Arrogant Little Laughs -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:17:04 (EST)

SF -:- Some Wembley Info -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 14:47:18 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- want some more! -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 18:14:06 (EST)
____SF -:- want some more! -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 19:52:18 (EST)
______JW -:- want some more! -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 19:59:33 (EST)
________SF -:- want some more! -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 20:19:49 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- Good he's acknowledged ... -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 06:37:36 (EST)
________pam -:- want some more! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 23:59:29 (EST)
__________VP -:- pam, where does it come from -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 00:16:57 (EST)
__________JW -:- To pamwant some more! -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 01:19:04 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- You're really funny ! -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:41:23 (EST)
__Brian -:- Some Wembley Info -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 08:15:08 (EST)
__Becky -:- Some Wembley Info -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:27:27 (EST)
____Katie -:- Techniques -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 10:01:20 (EST)
______Katie -:- Techniques on line -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 10:10:00 (EST)
__CD -:- Some Wembley Info -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 16:20:04 (EST)
____Jim -:- Get real, Chris -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 21:51:36 (EST)
______CD -:- I doing just fine -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 22:49:02 (EST)

red heart -:- new nick here -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 10:40:25 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- new nick here -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 11:01:09 (EST)
____red heart -:- new nick here -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:02:41 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- new nick here -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:07:05 (EST)
________red heart -:- new nick here -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:16:14 (EST)

G's mom -:- why are you here non ex's? -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:58:26 (EST)
__red heels -:- why are you here non ex's? -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 10:29:11 (EST)
____G's mom -:- why are you here non ex's? -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 10:59:20 (EST)
______red heart -:- why are you here non ex's? -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:13:04 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- why are you here non ex's? -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:04:58 (EST)
______red heart -:- why are you here non ex's? -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:21:08 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- 'wookin' pah nub' -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:27:54 (EST)
__________Sir David -:- Bad manners -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:02:27 (EST)
____________G's mom -:- Bad manners -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:28:35 (EST)
____________red heart -:- Bad manners -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:29:46 (EST)
______________G's mom -:- Bad manners -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:35:47 (EST)
______________Rick -:- Bad manners -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 14:41:11 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- Bad manners -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:23:41 (EST)
________________Sir David -:- He's reaping what he sowed -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 21:22:06 (EST)
__________________red heart -:- He's reaping what he sowed -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 22:39:14 (EST)
____________________mona lisa -:- He's reaping what he sowed -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:12:19 (EST)
____________________King David -:- All rise for His Majesty -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 08:09:15 (EST)
____________Mark -:- Guitar Intentions -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 01:40:35 (EST)
______________Carol -:- You said: -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:16:22 (EST)
________________mark -:- You said: -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:22:21 (EST)
______________Sir David -:- Guitar Intentions -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 08:02:27 (EST)
______________John -:- Interested in pure gossip... -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:44:24 (EST)
____premieJi -:- to red heart and G's mom -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 22:40:21 (EST)
______red heart -:- premies posting -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:14:16 (EST)
________G's mom -:- premies posting -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:21:27 (EST)
__________red heart -:- premies posting -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 01:44:35 (EST)
__________premieJi -:- premies posting bs from GmomJi -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:38:38 (EST)
____________Jethro -:- premies posting bs from GmomJi -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 03:31:14 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- premies posting -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:12:14 (EST)
__________red heart -:- premies posting -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 01:47:23 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- premies posting -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 10:52:33 (EST)
______Jim -:- premie ji -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 11:47:29 (EST)

Iola -:- Graduation -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:07:33 (EST)
__John -:- Graduation -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 14:28:30 (EST)
__red heart -:- face your fear -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 22:53:39 (EST)
____Redder Heart Mark -:- face your fear- your Own ? -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:38:28 (EST)
______Carol -:- Put it in the best of forum! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:29:49 (EST)
____Jim -:- face your stupidity -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 17:21:23 (EST)
______Jethro -:- face your stupidity -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 07:19:42 (EST)
____Anon -:- face your fear -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:33:47 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- face your fear -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 20:05:41 (EST)

premieJi -:- Jim's Quote of the year -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 08:14:10 (EST)
__judex -:- Jim's Quote of the year -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 08:56:06 (EST)
____Judex -:- correction -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 10:14:24 (EST)
__Jim -:- Jim's Quote of the year -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:30:11 (EST)
____red heart -:- to Jim -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:20:39 (EST)
______Jim -:- to Jim -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:31:07 (EST)
__John -:- read with guileless heart -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 11:26:15 (EST)

judex -:- circle of friends -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 05:37:37 (EST)
__premieJi -:- circle of friends -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 07:08:00 (EST)
____Sir David -:- circle of enemies -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 08:55:09 (EST)
____Judex -:- circle of friends -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:42:35 (EST)
______VP -:- Death -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:40:48 (EST)
________eb -:- Death -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:58:26 (EST)
__________VP -:- Hang on, baby! -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 17:33:16 (EST)
__________Sir David -:- Death - I did it -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 21:00:51 (EST)
____________eb -:- The Lighter Side of Death -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 21:32:14 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- The Lighter Side of Death -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:01:45 (EST)
____________red heart -:- near death -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:27:50 (EST)
______________Sir David -:- near death -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 08:31:48 (EST)
____________cheese fan club -:- Death - I did it -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:29:38 (EST)
______________Cheddar by name -:- Death - I did it -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 08:39:59 (EST)
____________Judex -:- Death - I did it -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 03:08:14 (EST)
______________Sir David of Cheddar -:- A pleasure, Judex -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 08:46:32 (EST)
____________Carol -:- Death - -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 03:10:19 (EST)
______________Judex -:- Death - -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 03:28:40 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Doctors and children -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 08:44:13 (EST)
__________Peter -:- depressssssion -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 01:01:32 (EST)
____________eb -:- depressssssion -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:36:06 (EST)
________Judex -:- to VP - independence/intimacy -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:40:00 (EST)
__________VP -:- to VP - independence/intimacy -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:52:29 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- to VP - independence/intimacy -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:30:29 (EST)
______________carol -:- Peter Pan... -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:39:50 (EST)
________________Carol -:- Oops..Mary Poppins -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 20:44:51 (EST)
__________________VP -:- Oops..Mary Poppins -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:31:42 (EST)
______________VP -:- Thanks, Robyn -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:57:07 (EST)
______________Peter -:- same dream -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 01:41:37 (EST)
________________Robyn -:- same dream -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 08:50:35 (EST)
__________________VP -:- same dream(off topic) -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:09:16 (EST)
______carol -:- circle of friends -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:40:44 (EST)
________Judex -:- circle of friends -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 03:22:23 (EST)
__________Carol -:- Your ex -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 03:33:56 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- circle of friends -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:32:52 (EST)
__Patsy to Edina -:- circle of friends -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:27:23 (EST)
____John -:- btw, eb... -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 14:58:10 (EST)
______eb -:- btw, eb... -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:25:25 (EST)
________eb -:- To sensitive John -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:46:02 (EST)
__________John -:- blush blush -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 17:01:09 (EST)
____Judex -:- circle of friends -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 03:36:37 (EST)
__Robyn -:- circle of friends -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:52:35 (EST)
____Robyn -:- and... -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:53:54 (EST)
______Judex -:- and... -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 23:52:40 (EST)

VP -:- Independence, Scott-off topic -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:14:34 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Independence, Scott-off topic -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:30:31 (EST)
____VP -:- Independence, Scott-off topic -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 00:05:41 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Independence, Scott-off topic -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 00:11:53 (EST)

Jim -:- Here's why, Katie -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 22:57:38 (EST)
__Mirabai -:- Here's why, Katie -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 03:35:52 (EST)
__Katie -:- Here's why, Katie -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:34:02 (EST)
____Jim -:- The last word -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 11:38:36 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- The last word -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:21:58 (EST)
________Jim -:- What's that?? -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:07:38 (EST)
__________John -:- COM101 -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:34:25 (EST)
____________Jim -:- COMedy101 -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:50:23 (EST)
______________Carol -:- COMedy101 -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 03:27:37 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- To far, by long -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:08:29 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Too foo foo by far -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:20:56 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- Too foo foo by far -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:26:52 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Too foo foo by far -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:30:49 (EST)
__________________Scott -:- Katie the Terrible -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:57:10 (EST)
__________________VP -:- Answers -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 17:15:23 (EST)
____________________Rick -:- CD -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 17:36:18 (EST)
______________________Robyn -:- CD -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 19:28:10 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- Yes VP -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 19:26:56 (EST)
______________________Scott T. -:- Yes VP -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 20:31:10 (EST)
________________________Jim -:- Now what? Intervention!! -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 20:57:24 (EST)
__________________________JW -:- Now what? Intervention!! -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:57:01 (EST)
__________________________Scott T. -:- Thanks -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 11:08:04 (EST)
____________________________JW -:- Thanks -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:56:00 (EST)
______________________________VP -:- Compulsiveness -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:16:26 (EST)
________________________________JW -:- Compulsiveness -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:46:48 (EST)
__________________________________Peter -:- Compulsiveness -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 01:56:59 (EST)
____________________________Jim -:- Thanks -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 14:58:11 (EST)
__________________________JW -:- Now what? Intervention!! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:53:20 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- Oh, I see now. -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:47:51 (EST)
________________Judex -:- to CD -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:31:28 (EST)
__________________VP -:- to CD and Judex -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:48:12 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- Judex, honey -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 01:58:49 (EST)
____________________Judex -:- Judex, honey -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:34:59 (EST)
______________________Jim -:- Judex, honey -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 11:33:28 (EST)


Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 17:44:58 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Arrogant Little Laughs
Message:
Did anyone notice the laughs that some of the premies shown in LOTU had? Like the premie who was carrying a flower that he claimed the LOTU had touched? Another premie had a similar laugh, who wasn't onscreen but could be heard in the background while Bal Bhagwan Ji was going on, about how he just hung out all day and gave darshan. It's kind of like an LSD induced laugh, but mostly propelled by arrogance... the I'm-so-high-and-therefore-superior-laugh. Just a little trick of the trade.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 17:57:08 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Danny Munter
Message:
The premie who had the flower that BM had touched, with the beard, dancing like he was on drugs, was one of my ashram roommates, Danny Munter. To be fair, he always kind of laughed like that. I think he wasn't allowed to stay in the ashram because it turns out he was fucking, surruptitiously, one of the ashram sisters on a regular basis. Come to think of it, THAT'S why he was always laughing!
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 19:23:54 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: JW
Subject: Danny Munter
Message:
Dear Joe,
Made me laugh too. :)
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:24:42 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Danny Munter
Message:
JW,
I laughed so hard at that guy when I saw the tape. I didn't know he was your roommate and now I feel sort of bad for laughing. But only a little...

I thought he was either high on drugs or just incredibly weird. Wonder what he is doing now?
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:28:40 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Danny Munter
Message:
I don't know where Danny is now. I haven't seen him in years, but I think it's likely he isn't a premie anymore.

He once told me that at his high school in Rochester, New York, he was voted by his senior class as 'the most likely to succeed.'
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:35:20 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Class reunion?
Message:
No kidding. Now I'm laughing again. I wonder what his 25 year class reunion was like...

Cute girl walks up. Used to be a wallflower. Now has an MBA and quite an ass...'Hi, Danny. What have you been doing with your life the past 25 years?'

Danny, 'I starred in my first motion picture about the Lord of the Universe. I am holding a flower and laughing. You should see it.'

Girl, 'Oh-cough cough-I'll have to check that out...excuse me.' Dashes over to ex-quarterback and now alcoholic Rex Tyler.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 09:11:43 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Class reunion?
Message:
VP -
If this is the post you think was tasteless, I don't agree. I think it's very funny. If the guy has any sense of humor, which he apparently does, he'd probably laugh at it. You have obviously been to a few high school reunions.

I did want to make one comment about that scene in the movie. First, Mark is right in that we all did really stupid things in the name of 'devotion' (I won't go into detail here...). Danny just had the bad luck to get captured on film. Also, his performance reminded me a lot of some of the hippie/yippie things that I used to do to 'freak out straight people' (I won't go into details here either...) before I became a conformist premie. I can't say that Abbie Hoffman wouldn't have approved of him! (the action, not the context).
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:26:07 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Class reunion?
Message:
Katie, I suggest that you videotape yourself doing some of those things that you don't care to describe, so we can all get an idea of what you are talking about. We can call it 'the best of Katie.'

Actually, I kind of feel sorry for Danny. Not because he's still a premie, but because he had the bad karma of getting caught on film being a crazed cult member, and because he has the bad karma of having to live in Lozengeles. Is ther no justice? Hasn't Danny suffered enough?

Actually, I would think the guy in the film who said he would crawl across three continents to lick the dust off BM's feet would be kind of embarrassed if he saw that film too, not to mention Rennie Davis, who I am sure would be happy if that film were never shown again, because of some of the really dumb stuff he said. From what I understand, he discretely drops those things out of his bio. Funny, Charles Cameron does the same. Wonder why?

I think Bal Bagwan Ji/aka SatPal wouldn't be too thrilled for his 'devotees' to see that film either. His description of BM's 'miracle' when he turned their family dog into a vegetarian and his prediction that the pope would receive knowledge are just two of the more juicy comments he makes.

But, you are right. I said some really weird stuff too, and even wrote letters to my parents saying as much. Thank god there weren't video cameras back then.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:52:33 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Embarassing things (post - K)
Message:
Going through a darshan line.
Giving satsang.
Giving satsang to your unconverted friends and family.
Giving satsang to strangers on the street.
Selling 'And it is Divine' subscriptions door to door.
Meditating under a blanket.
Trying to meditate all night in a room full of people under blankets.
Carrying around a baragon.
Wearing those Maharaji buttons.
Wearing long dresses with earth shoes (women).
Wearing polyester suits with open collared shirts (men).
Pranaming in front of the altar after arti (who can pranam the longest??)
Singing arti and forgetting half the words.
Holding the arti tray and swaying back and forth trying to look blissed out.
Drinking charanamrit.
Calling everyone 'sister' and 'brother'.

and just for you, JW:
Being a community coordinator.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 14:09:00 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Embarassing things (post - K)
Message:
and just for you, JW: Being a community coordinator.

Yes, we could call it: 'A Day In The Life Of A Community Coordinator (Formerly Known As General Secretary)'

This would start out with arti at 5:00 am, followed by one hour of meditation (an extra hour of sleep draped over a barragon), a breakfast consisting of miso soup, granola, yogurt, fruit and chai, followed by extreme flatulence for several hours.

Then as the ashram premies go off to their ghastly jobs, the community coordinator goes to the 'community office' in the 'satsang hall' and attempts to act like he or she actually has something to do. This is very exhausting, requiring the community coordinator to stop early for lunch, and drive around the community looking for a new ashram or satsang hall. Then a meeting with the treasurer, saying we need more money, followed by calls to and from national headquarters to ensure that we are doing EXACTLY what the lord wants, and hear about how much MORE money is needed from the communities. Duscussion ensues as to whether I know premies who have any money, and could I talk to them about donations.

Then dinner and satsang, at which time the CC may be required to make 'announcements,' guilt-trip people into giving over their AMP donations, appeal for money for 'the world tour' (which ONLY the CC knows, is REALLY a plane), and discussions with a few community premies after satsang, who possibily have more than two nickels to rub together.

Following, there might be a meeting with the local resident initiator, to discuss how some premies are spacing out, and how to get them on the straight and narrow, which ashram premie is spending too much time with a member of the opposite sex, and what to do about it, and share darshan stories. Then another hour of sleep while sitting under a blanket, followed by horozontal sleep on an foam mat.

Great film.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:40:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Hey, Joe (and Katie)
Message:
Katie,

You are SO funny when you're not being evasive. Well, I guess you're funny then too. But your list here is great. Welcome, once again, to the ex-premie page.

Joe,

Then dinner and satsang

Didn't you get invited out to communtiy premies' houses for dinner and a little casual pontification?
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:40:09 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: Apple 4256@aol.com
To: VP
Subject: Danny Munter
Message:
he's a successful stockbroker in LA
and a nice kind guy.
my wife and I had dinner with he,
his wife and a few other couples
a few years back.

He still attends programs
so if that equals being a premie
He's guilty

His laugh, moustache and Scorpionic nature
can conspire against protestations to
his sanity. . .
he'd laugh at what I just said !

Hey, probably anyone in the forum
would have said the Same thing at one time or another!
thank your favorite deity You weren't filmed!
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:50:55 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Danny Munter
Message:
Mark, has Danny seen that film?
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:43:25 (EST)
From: mark
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Danny Munter
Message:
don't know
though I fill ask him at an appropriate time
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 19:22:59 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Rick
Subject: Arrogant Little Laughs
Message:
Dear Rick,
I don't remember the guy off screen but that other guy with the flower gave me my first laugh of the video. I don't doubt that your take on it is right on but I just thought he sounded like a mindless, fool. All he needed to do was drool to complete my mental image!
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 21:35:08 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Arrogant Little Laughs
Message:
Robyn:

Poor guy. And now we know what he would have been drooling over.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:17:04 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Arrogant Little Laughs
Message:
Hi Rick,
We had premies in our community who would go off into some kind of laughing conniption fits during satsang. I mean really loud, lengthy guffaws. At the time, I thought they were very high. Now I think they either wanted attention or realized how ridiculous the whole trip was (or maybe both).

eb
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 14:47:18 (EST)
From: SF
Email: None
To: CD - The Wembley Coward
Subject: Some Wembley Info
Message:
My profound apologies to Shri Webmaster for repeating my post but I've heard some interesting stuff about the Wembley program and tried to elicit a response from C.D. without success. I put it in a thread below in which CD was participating but he's chickened out and I don't want him to have the excuse of the thread's obscurity.

Hello CD,

Sorry to butt in here but you're just the man to help me out. I've been talking to a premie(ish) friend of mine who, like yourself, is just back from the Wembley programme. He didn't spill the beans as much as I would have liked but he still has a few slivers of integrity left and admits to having extremely mixed feelings about some of the things going on there. He even told me some of his misgivings about the event and I thought maybe you'd like to fill us in on a few of the details of what's happening.

Firstly, did you hear BM telling the faithful that he 'has enemies'? Yes, my friend swears BM said this. Enemies who are still 'ticked off' about decisions he made long ago? Decisions he says were 'excellent'? Of course the BM didn't go into details but claimed we are all of no consequence because he still has more friends than enemies! Chris, old chap, do you really think this can be construed as properly addressing our legitimate concerns? Even my old friend, (we were aspirants together and got K within 3 weeks of each other back in 77) thinks this is yet another feeble evasion masquerading, albeit badly, as jocular wisdom.

And what about those blatantly devotional videos? Lingering slow-motion shots of his nibs waddling along a pristine beach to new age music whilst softly breathing out his bland and meaningless sub-juvenile poetry as if it were the most astounding oracular revelation ever to grace the human ear! This was apparently put on after BM's satsang; presumably to keep the mugs in their seats while the BM made a clean getaway in the merc. My friend says he would have slipped away himself if he could have done so without disturbing a whole row of enraptured 70's throwbacks. I know how he feels. When the devotional trip started creeping in again about 3 years ago it was the final straw for me and I discovered knowledge worked better without submitting one's love to someone whose hypocrasy rendered him so obviously unworthy. My friend said this video reminded him of the poetry of the Vogon space-ship captain from the Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I'm sure British readers will understand this reference and since you seem to be a regular visitor to our shores perhaps you will too.

Also, CD, don't you think it's kind of sad that BM is now reduced to using his satsang to plug the over-priced trinkets in the concession stalls which, I am reliably informed, fill almost the entire length of each lobby? BM was heard to sing the glory of a magazine called Contact which I'm told was selling for £7. My friend said it wasn't nearly as thick or well produced as an opera programme from Covent Garden costing considerably less. And I'm told there was a daily newsheet on sale consisting of only one sheet of paper which sold for a pound!!! That must be all of 98 pence pure profit! Copious videos were on sale at every stand, some lasting 4 minutes and costing £8. What next? Is he booked on Opra? Personally, I suspect even her show might be too up-market for him. It sounds like he'd be more suitable for the 'Devotion Hour' on the Home Shopping Network.

I believe BM claimed there were 8,200 people at Wembley, with 1,200 of them aspirants. But my friend says a very large percentage of those present were foreigners and there were still plenty of empty seats. I remember in 77/8 that same hall was bursting at the seams just with us Brits and a few Euro-Honchos.

While I'm on the subject of videos: didn't the BM recount the old story of the cow dung laddoos from Delhi because, by his own admission, he hadn't told it for a while and it would be good to 'get it for the videos?'

Well, CD, I'd really love it if you would provide us with some detailed comment on these points. But why haven't you mentioned them already? We'd really like to know what you thought of all these goings on. I'm sure there's quite a few things I've forgotten but they may come back to me. In any case, I'll be talking to my freind again before too long. And next time I won't be relying on him for my information. There's a one day programme in Brighton in August and I'm considering going with him to see this drivel with my own eyes. So, if you don't report it, maybe I will. What the hell, I'd probably report it anyway. I've read a lot of your posts and found nothing but vacuous evasion but hey, feel free to prove me wrong.

S.F.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 18:14:06 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: want some more!
Message:
What is the real reason why all these 'events' have been cancelled?
I have some ideas about it.
Information is available amongst premies, but they don't want to put 2 and 2 together.

i'm asking again: what is the problem.
What are the symtoms?
What's changed in m's functioning, etc .....

The info is there .....
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 19:52:18 (EST)
From: SF
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: want some more!
Message:
As usual, only the top honchos know the real truth but as far as I can gather, even the ordinary premies don't believe it's the 'logistical reasons' as per the official bulletins. There aren't so many premies these days that will talk to me but it seems the general consensus of opinion is that the programs are being cancelled for reasons of money. The line being secretly pedalled is that there isn't enough in the kitty. My own belief, reading between the lines, is that BM doesn't think he'll make enough profit to make the cancelled events worthwhile.

E.V. and the BM have been so secretive about money details it's difficult to know exactly what's going on. If you've heard anything else I'd love to know.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 19:59:33 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: want some more!
Message:
I agree that money is probably the reason for cancelling those programs. He kind of has his butt in a crack in not charging too much admission, because if he charged more, even fewer would show up. If he doesn't get the turnout, he loses money. But he tries to make up for it with sales of videos, etc., and I assume the shortage of cash is why he charges 1 pound for one piece of paper. Handsome profit there, and plently of suckers who will shell out the cash. Wonder what the mark-up is on that beach towel that CD bought.

Also, he 'double dips' by holding a program and making as much money he can from the sale of trinkets and admissions, and then he turns around and makes money off the video of the very same event. What a racket!

I was really interested in what you heard about BM saying that his 'enemies' were criticizing his 'excellent' decisions of the past. This is too funny. I guess this means this website has gotten his attention, because I doubt he has ever mentioned it before.

Such utter arrogance to describe all his amazingly stupid decisions and actions as 'excellent.' So, I guess he really IS the Lord of the Universe, his family members are the incarnations of whatever, and millennium was a smashing success.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 20:19:49 (EST)
From: SF
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: want some more!
Message:
Hi J.W.

As regards the merchandising even my premie friend who told me about it is disgusted at how blatant this has become and the mark ups must be truly amazing. All the stands were manned by 'volunteers', i.e., premies doing service, so there can be practically no overheads whatsoever. Also unofficial peddlars as in the days of old are no longer tolerated in any way, shape or form. Divine monopoly rules, o.k.!

I was really interested in what you heard about BM saying that his 'enemies' were criticizing his 'excellent' decisions of the past. This is too funny. I guess this means this website has gotten his attention, because I doubt he has ever mentioned it before.

Such utter arrogance to describe all his amazingly stupid decisions and actions as 'excellent.' So, I guess he really IS the Lord of the Universe, his family members are the incarnations of whatever, and millennium was a smashing success.


I asked my premie friend if he was sure about what he told me and all the words I've put in quotes are what BM actually used. All the on-line premies knew exactly what he was talking about. Even those who don't peek know of this site's existance. I'm hoping to find out more about what he said but can't promise. Even the audio tapes of each event are made available shortly after (about £8 a throw!) but are definitely edited.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 06:37:36 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: Good he's acknowledged ...
Message:
I was really interested in what you heard about BM saying that his 'enemies' were criticizing his 'excellent' decisions of the past. This is too funny. I guess this means this website has gotten his attention, because I doubt he has ever mentioned it before.

Such utter arrogance to describe all his amazingly stupid decisions and actions as 'excellent.' So, I guess he really IS the Lord of the Universe, his family members are the incarnations of whatever, and millennium was a smashing success.


I wonder what he going to do/say next!

Everytime in the past (from what I can recall) he's acknowledged something he didn't like, he had some strong reaction:
firing people, radical changes in his sytems, etc.
As it's not likely that he's going to change his behavior,
I'm wondering .....
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 23:59:29 (EST)
From: pam
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: want some more!
Message:
M doesn't make any money personally from the sales. It all goes to EV to support the costs of the programs and instructors. He doesn't personally profit and accepts no honoraria. You should get that straight.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 00:16:57 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: pam
Subject: pam, where does it come from
Message:
Pam,
Since you seem to be so well informed on this topic, could you please tell me how he wears $5,000 Armani (and better) suits? He is getting the money somewhere.
Confused about this, VP
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 01:19:04 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: pam
Subject: To pamwant some more!
Message:
Pam, how do you know this?

Does EV or M produce any financial data, like every other, reputable non-profit that asks for donations does? Do you accept this on faith?

How on earth does BM live like a sultan if he doesn't make money off programs and the sale of videos and all the trinkets sold at programs? You must think we are pretty dumb to believe he doesn't.

By the way, in my day at IHQ, money from DLM wasn't supposed to go to BM personally, but a large, large portion of it did, nevertheless!
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:41:23 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: pam
Subject: You're really funny !
Message:
OF COURSE EV DOESN'T GIVE A DIME TO RAWAT !

It only pays for a lot of his private expenses,
it only sends 'gifts' collected in EV
it only recruits unpaid slaves
it only pays some 'private' companies for 'services'
etc etc
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 08:15:08 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: SF
Subject: Some Wembley Info
Message:
Good luck getting a detailed comment from CD on anything having to do with Maharaji.

As for the little fraud's excellent decisions, whatever happened to perfect? But at least he's claiming credit for his lame-brained decisions.

He decided to play Lord Of The Universe. He decided to encourage people to move into ashrams and to abandon their friends and family. He decided to encourage people to give all their money to him. He decided to toss their butts out onto the street by closing the ashrams. He decided to let them foot the bills for the costs incurred in devoting their lives to him by letting them pay all ashram bills when the CLOSED signs went up.

But my all-time favorite excellent decision by him was to abandon the Internet to those ticked-off enemies. Thank you, Maharaji, for not muddying the web-waters with your personal gibberish. As it is, premies are free to come here when they want REAL company of the truth. And since Wembley, they've been coming to the english AND french forums in even greater numbers. When's the next event?
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:27:27 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: frontline.media@virgin.net
To: SF
Subject: Some Wembley Info
Message:
me, an ex-aspirant went to the Wembley do and was shocked too by the three big TV screens, the quartet and the band singing 'The power of love' and everybody rising to their feet and clapping. You see, I want the techniques(out of CURIOSITY) but not the skilfull squeaking salesman who is palming them off. However, guys , if you feel the techniques are not worth the effort, please let me know. I'M STILL IN SHOCK AT FINDING THIS FORUM and that I wasn't the only one at Wembley who wasn't applauding.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 10:01:20 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Techniques
Message:
Hi Becky - welcome to the forum. The techniques are described on the website attached to this forum, and a typical knowledge session is also described. I recommend that you read these before making the decision whether you want the techniques badly enough to go through the knowledge process. (I don't have the exact location on site, but can get it for you if you cannot find them.)

I should tell you that the techniques are all taken from traditional yoga practices, and premies (and M?) claim that they don't 'work' unless they are transmitted in a formal knowledge session because then you get Maharaji's 'grace' too.

I personally did not get much out of meditating with these techniques - however, many of the ex-premies on this site do meditate with them and enjoy it very much. I don't think it's necessary to learn them in a formal knowledge session.

Regards from Katie
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 10:10:00 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Techniques on line
Message:
Check out
Knowledge session (click here)
as a start.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 16:20:04 (EST)
From: CD
Email: webmaster@cdickey.com
To: SF
Subject: Some Wembley Info
Message:
> I put it in a thread below in which CD was participating but he's chickened out and I don't want him to have the excuse of the thread's obscurity.

A bit presumptuous of you.
Who the heck is SF anyway?
First thing, I would like to know who I am responding too.
I have my name and email in this message.

> In any case, I'll be talking to my freind again before too long. And next time I won't be relying on him for my information. There's a one day programme in Brighton in August and I'm considering going with him to see this drivel with my own eyes. So, if you don't report it, maybe I will.

First hand is certainly the best.
I'll be expecting a report.

The videos of Wembley will be out shortly so you can answer your own questions about the content of the presentations.
The comments about the Clinton affairs are good in context.

>I've read a lot of your posts and found nothing but vacuous evasion but hey, feel free to prove me wrong.

I have no intent to 'prove' you wrong.
I share my opinions and beliefs and you can do with them what you like.

>Lingering slow-motion shots of his nibs waddling along a pristine beach to new age music whilst softly breathing out his bland and meaningless sub-juvenile poetry

The music and message was quite nice. Can't please everbody.
I happen to also like Hendrix stuff.
I have seen that video several times before. Not a problem with me.
You don't like it. No problem.

As far as the live music performed at the event,
I give it a big 2 thumbs up and hope to hear more.
Many thanks to the musicians for the good stuff!

>Also, CD, don't you think it's kind of sad that BM is now reduced to using his satsang to plug the over-priced trinkets in the concession stalls which, I am reliably informed, fill almost the entire length of each lobby? BM was heard to sing the glory of a magazine called Contact which I'm told was selling for £7.

That certainly wasn't my impression of the thrust of the talks given by Maharaji.
I recall that he made a single mention of the contact magazine.
Have you looked at it?
I bought a copy of the Contact magazine. Fine with me.
Thanks to the people who put it together.

I have quite a collection of videos myself.
In fact a friend of mine stayed at my apartement while I was out and watched and enjoyed several of them.
The stuff is for sale because people enjoy it. Difficult to understand?
At Long Beach I bought some of the swan crystal glasses.
Very beautiful stuff. Thanks.
I didn't buy any videos because I already have enough of the newest ones.
I didn't buy any music CDs because I have a couple copies of all of them already.
My girlfriend enjoys playing them every day of her own accord.
I happen to like music a lot being the owner of several guitars and amps.

A new premie music CD

Would I go to another Wembley event? You bet!

Cheers,
Chris Dickey
webmaster@cdickey.com
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 21:51:36 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Get real, Chris
Message:
I didn't buy any videos because I already have enough of the newest ones.

Come on, Chris, how can you ever have enough? Tell me, is there a single time Maharaji opens his mouth that ISN'T worth paying good money for? I'm appalled.

By the way, just how many things do you own with little swans on them?
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 22:49:02 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I doing just fine
Message:
>Come on, Chris, how can you ever have enough? Tell me, is there a single time Maharaji opens his mouth that ISN'T worth paying good money for? I'm appalled.

I only buy a few videos out of the total produced but certainly more than most people.
I find many of them very enjoyable to watch.
The ones I prefer have a combination of some M satsang, music and other stuff.
An example is the video with the Like the Rain song and the Holi festival scenes.
There is another one that has scenes from around the world and songs in 4 languages.
I have a couple videos produced for the audience in India that have some music that is quite different and good.
The Arise video of the Rome 1990 event is great with a combination of talks, scenes of people and the band playing a great song with a violin section.
I think that you would find the What Price Happiness video emotes a reaction from you - g.
I will buy the Wembley highlights video when it is released and the video of the Sunday talk because there were some things said there that I would like to hear again and have a record of.

No reason why you should like the videos. But I do.
A lot of people didn't/don't like the music of Hendrix either. No problem.

Videos are not the only thing that I collect.
As I have told you before, I have a library of over 1000 computer technical books.
And of course I have 5 guitars.

The reason I bought the swan crystal glasses (pretty expensive) is because they are very beautiful.
It is obvious to me that they were produced by inspired people.
They look great in the pantry.

Regards,
CD
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 10:40:25 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: red_heels@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: new nick here
Message:
okay, formerly red heels here, am switching to ''red heart'' to remind me to keep on topic. the sexual issues, those can be enjoyed in other much more appropriate places. (or inappropriate, depending on whose judgment is at the fore, heh.)

i discovered yesterday that I do not feel at all comfortable discussing my sexual proclivities here. and why should i? and i like my new nick. =)

red heart
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 11:01:09 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: new nick here
Message:
RH:

Same initials though. Now, back to 'Sir' Maharaji...

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:02:41 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: new nick here
Message:
wow. i didn't even notice that before! kewl. Yes, back to Sri Maharaji. =)

r.h.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:07:05 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: new nick here
Message:
RH:

What do you mean you 'never noticed it before.' Is it obscure, or something?

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:16:14 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: new nick here
Message:
i mean i didn't notice that both the heels and heart began with an ''h'' silly. just wasn't thinking about the actually letters at the time, too busy thinking about love and joy and things that don't begin with an h, haha.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:58:26 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: current premies
Subject: why are you here non ex's?
Message:
I am glad you post here because it is kind of fun to read the discussions that ensue. But I cannot help but be curious, why would a premie post here? Apparently Rawat has requested that premies not post on these internet boards. When I was a premie I know I would not have read or posted as I was a very obedient soul. So, how do you all rationalize it? Red Heels? Premie Ji?
Please respond. I am not at all saying you are not welcome. I am just curious why you are here and what you tell yourself about why it is okay to be here.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 10:29:11 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: why are you here non ex's?
Message:
hi, G's mom. thanks for asking.

to me, it's all a matter of the mind's habit of making rules. especially when someone is dealing with something that their concepts relegate to the 'spirituality' label, old embedded training or beliefs get all mixed up in what we are doing and thinking.

i do not look to Maharaji for 'orders,' as so many may assume. rather, i look to him for understanding, wisdom, love.

i heard everything he had to say about the internet, and I have wasted a lot of time on the internet, especially in the past. and he said that the internet is not the right place for propagation and also about the waste of time. and of course that is true. i don't consider my postings here to be propagation, and i know that often they are probably just a waste of time.

i believe in people, and i care about people. and there are things i have found that i care to respond to. i don't feel i am ''disobeying'' Maharaji. it is possible i am misunderstanding him, but i am not going against him. i can only come from where i am at, and i am not going to falsely put limits on myself where i do not feel that.

Maharaji is not a dictator and there is no cult happening except in the minds of those who wish to make it into a cult, involved currently or not involved currently.

people carry their own cages around with them, and they get involved with Maharaji and they go through some inner battle and if they run out, stop listening, stop practicing, it is not their clear thinking, it is their own cage they are running away from. Then they shout, 'Oh, that was a cage, beware, a cage!' But it is their own prison bars. And they have them now, just in a new 'room,' in a new stage they have created for themselves. and of course they can feed on fear, fear of cages, in a world so full of cages and so full of fear. oh yes, for fear of cages one can have a field day. so few are free. so sadly few.

Maharaji has not caged me, he has freed me. I keep caging myself back up, then i listen to him, listen with my heart, and feeling the refreshing and incredible cleansing of his wisdom, and i go inside and experience once again what i have within me, and again i am freed from the cage.

Every day i need to make the effort. The day i don't make that effort, there is no enlightenment for me that day, that week, that hour, that year, that decade. But it is always there, waiting for me, has Maharaji has also always been there, so patient, so kind.

when we came to Maharaji we had had enough of sorrow and we had had enough of cages for which we could not find joy, could not find freedom. Maharaji gives us a way. it is simple, but it is -not- easy. it has to be understood and felt in your own life. it is not some matter of thinking, labeling and putting in boxes. it is real. but it takes a sincere thirst, and acceptance. it is beautiful. Maharaji (and I don't mean this in a 'religious' way) is truly my saviour. He saves me. Every day.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 10:59:20 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: why are you here non ex's?
Message:
Dear Red Heels,
Thanks for answering my question. I myself felt very much caged by Rawat ( my prefered name). I feel infinitely more free now to feel and love and care about those and what I choose and my heart tells me to.
Good luck to you, G's mom
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:13:04 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: why are you here non ex's?
Message:
thanks, G's mom. yes, if you were feeling caged you were not getting anything he wants to offer.

am glad you are feeling better now.

if one day you find that you can approach, listen and accept in a real freedom that you will love. approaching the Master to accept the real gifts he has to offer, if you are ever ready for that, the doors are always open. they were open for you to leave, and they are open if you ever choose to return in a freer state.

and if not, Maharaji won't bother you about it, and nobody else should bother you about it.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:04:58 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: why are you here non ex's?
Message:
RH:

i do not look to Maharaji for 'orders,' as so many may assume. rather, i look to him for understanding, wisdom, love.

No offense, but that is just so... pathetic. I have no doubt it is true, however.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:21:08 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: why are you here non ex's?
Message:
oh yeah? and since when did understanding, wisdom and love become part of the definition of pathos? Last time I checked, it meant something very, very different.

where there is darkness, look for the light. there is a part of you that loves the light. (not on topic maybe, just felt like saying that.)
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:27:54 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: 'wookin' pah nub'
Message:
RH:

i do not look to Maharaji for 'orders,' as so many may assume. rather, i look to him for understanding, wisdom, love.

I simply meant that M has none of those things to give.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:02:27 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Bad manners
Message:
I think premies are talking about a totally subjective reality. One which depends entirely on how you look at it. Most of the times I have been in a program and listened to Maharaji I have either been bored, confused, freaked out and just a few times, mildly amused in parts. Usually I was glad when he's finished speaking and I could go home.

Once an aspirant was strumming the guitar and singing the song, 'The words I have to say, may well be simple but there true etc etc' and I felt greatly warmed by this. When I told her that I was very touched by her singing she said that satsang must be in the eye of the beholder because she was feeling nothing.

Undoubtedly, some people are enthralled by Maharaji. But most are not. The ones who are enthralled are pretty short sighted if they expect everyone else to feel the same way. I've been far more enthralled by watching some live music or standing near a jet that's taking off.

Finally, I believe it's bad manners to go on about Maharaji to people who are not particularly enamoured with him. It's the hight of bad manners. You are saying, 'I love Maharaji and if you don't, you're in the dark, unlike me who is in the light.' Yes, very ill mannered and rude indeed.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:28:35 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Bad manners
Message:
Yes, I think it is bad manners too, and kind of pathetic that it can't be le

o, but I asked why they are here so I opened it up. I believe Rawat to be a con man who knows he is indeed not a 'perfect master' but has found that the most lucrative thing he can do in life is to portray himself as such.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:29:46 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Bad manners
Message:
oh, and it isn't bad manners to sustain a website for the main purpose of trying to thwart someone's life work?
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:35:47 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: Bad manners
Message:
If you believe someone's life work to be evil and destcuctive than it is admirable and noble to have a website such as this. There are many other websites devoted to helping fellow humans deal with destcuctive forces.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 14:41:11 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: Bad manners
Message:
It all depends what that 'life work' is. In this case, the Bowel Movement Man, Maharaji, operates a cult and programs people's minds. He is a deceptive fraud, capitalizing on people's weakness and vulnerablility. That is very bad manners.

If you think this site is displaying bad manners by its very purpose, what are you doing here? You're a hypocrit to be friendly when your intent is undermine the function of this website. If you want to promote the Fat Guru Fraud, why don't you get your own website and register it on the search engines?

On the other hand, stick around... you help to demonstrate how the Guru Fraud can program your mind, diminish a person's thinking and generally act like a passive-aggressive asshole.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:23:41 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: Bad manners
Message:
RH:

Even if you oppose the purpose of this web site, 'bad manners' is not the appropriate term. It is not a matter of social etiquette.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 21:22:06 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Red Heart
Subject: He's reaping what he sowed
Message:
Maharaji is only reaping the results of his past actions in this wen site. He was the one who pretended to be God and told people to devote their lives to him and give up everything. Nobody would have a web site dedicated to bring about someone's demise unless that 'someone' had done some pretty awful things. People are just not that vindictive.

A decent and respectable meditation teacher would not be getting this sort of opposition. So why do you think it is that there's a web site dedicated to thwart Maharaji's mission? Have you ever stopped to wonder?

Of course you haven't because you, in your superior Alice in Wonderland, arrogant state of mind, do think we're a bunch of assholes. You fail to see that we're just ordinary, normal people who have something relevant to say.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 22:39:14 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: He's reaping what he sowed
Message:
he is not a 'meditation teacher' but the True Master. there is a difference, my dear.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:12:19 (EST)
From: mona lisa
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: He's reaping what he sowed
Message:
Go away 'my dear' condescending and deluded one. You use this site to boost your Ds ego. No wonder you like the 'Master' ,he dominates you.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 08:09:15 (EST)
From: King David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: red heart
Subject: All rise for His Majesty
Message:
Red Heart wrote:
'he is not a 'meditation teacher' but the True Master'

And I'm the King of England.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 01:40:35 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: Apple 4256@aol.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Guitar Intentions
Message:
Actually M has had those sort of experiences
himself
discussed them with Koran ( his astrologer) and John Hampton
Hampton was an instuctor and had had a really rough
night of giving satsang in SAmer in the 80's
afterwards a # of people told him
'what you said answered the question I had , etc etc'
He complained about it to M saying
'i really wasn't experiencing anything when I was giving satsang
and then all these people said it was so magical !'
M said 'you think that's weird, the same thing happens to me !'

As per Koran,During the marriage troubles in the 80's M wanted to quit
the whole thing cause he wasn't feeling anything for awhile.
But he went on stage and people still got blissed Out.

One argument is that this despite the Meditation component
this an Emotion-Based Spiritual Culture
and satsangs and festival/programs demand
some level of emotional discharge/recharge
and emotional belonging/home feelings experienced. . .
( not unlike Christianity or other Bhakti Cults)
In emotion-based cults, emotional agendas
program 'thoughts' and opinions, realizations
visions, etc. , ie, the tail wags the dog.
So you
Experiece a song even tho the player may not
an emotional hit is needed. . .

Another, is that there are Mega Agendas
run by greater consciousness
and each beholder hears a different Song
as per their intentions/needs. . .

This group dynamic always amazes me, actually. . .

By the way David, I too shared your earlier anguish or there
not being a True God on Earth/ and that we might be the real 'lovers of God' dissatisfied with a 'lesser god'
but I think it is us actually who are the long-awaited One
a race of slumbering God
shaking off our collective sleep . . .

. . .And shaking off that horrible 90th minute goal
by Romania. . .
well, lose a game,
gain an 18 year old Superstar

maybe the best since Best. . .
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:16:22 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: You said:
Message:
'but I think it is us actually who are the long-awaited One
a race of slumbering God
shaking off our collective sleep . . .'

That is an agreeable revelation. Awaken all sleepers to the reality. Carol
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:22:21 (EST)
From: mark
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: You said:
Message:
thank you, m'am.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 08:02:27 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Mark
Subject: Guitar Intentions
Message:
Yeah, Glen Hoddle needs a good talking to for not putting Michael Owen in the team earlier. I hope we see him in the whole of the next game. Did you know that Michael said quite confindently that if he was put in the team he would score? This lad knows what he's capable of. I agree, another George Best in the making.

Thanks for the story of John Hampton and what Maharaji said. All very interesting and very true. I think Maharaji eventually realised that some people would buy into his trip no matter what. He gained confidence from that which is why he's still around today.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:44:24 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Interested in pure gossip...
Message:
'As per Koran,During the marriage troubles in the 80's M wanted to quit the whole thing cause he wasn't feeling anything for awhile.'

Do we know anything about what exactly the marriage troubles were?
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 22:40:21 (EST)
From: premieJi
Email: None
To: red heels and G's mom
Subject: to red heart and G's mom
Message:
Hey red heels, that was great! ( Your answer to G's mom I mean!) Very well said.

G's mom, I would have answered in very similar way to how red heels has, although perhaps not as eloquently.

I would add that I've come to the conclusion that debating with the long serving members of this forum is probably a waste of both sides time, as we are speaking different languages.

Current premies are aware of a whole experiential dimension in M's world which is totally separate from the words, the money, the numbers, the lifestyle etc which dominate discussion here.

My view is that long term ex's here have forgotten this aspect, some maybe never felt this deeply. I know this is possible because I have forgotten it myself and then rediscoverd it later.

M. himself has always emphasized that the words are not the main point, and when people get stuck on them, they are missing the point. I agree.

Still, I think I'm motivated to post because often I read things being said which I know (at least from my experience ) to be innacurate or at least distorted. As people seem to stumble into the forum from time to time, I feel impelled to counter what I see as misinformation or propaganda. Also, there is a process here by which questions are put to premies, and a non response is construed to indicate agreement or inablity to answer.

To be sure, whatever we say or don't say, someone will come up with how this proves we are programmed cult members bla, bla bla.

So my involvement here is I suppose reactionary. If this site did not exist, I wouldn't see any point in posting stuff on the net.

Regards,
premieJi
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:14:16 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: premieJi
Subject: premies posting
Message:
yes, i have to say that i have much the same thoughts as premieJi, although i don't worry about unanswered questions, because i do not have the inclination to read every thread here. i can't and won't answer posts i never have read.

but yes, this is a place where people who have no idea what's going on and no orientation regarding Maharaji can stumble in unwittingly. it's only right the voice of Maharaji's grateful proponents also be heard.

after all, Maharaji is offering something which there are many, many people are in desperate need of. like a parched man crawling in the desert, dying for water. so many. so many no doubt close to suicide. and Maharaji can not only give them drink, but can show them how to find it within themselves. listening to him is like getting some drink, and then practicing Knowledge is learning to drink within the nectar of Live, Love. one discovers that each and every moment of this life within us is precious, every single breath. one begins to wake up in the morning and finding the first thoughts being of gratitude for being alive! yes, he is the True Master of our time.

there is nothing like it. nothing.

he is true, he is real, and what he says works. what you will read that he says on this website is more often slander and hearsay. hear him for yourself if you really are interested. premieJi and I and a couple others i have seen post now and again, who have good things to say about Maharaji and Knowledge, are not welcome here except as targets for putting down and scoffing, for the most part.

good to have you here, premieJi.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:21:27 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: red heart+premie ji
Subject: premies posting
Message:
Did you not just say you are trying to influence those unfamiliar with Rawat? Is that not propagation? Isn't that precisely what he said he does not want on the net?

If you were to find out he really does not want you to post here would you stop? ( I personally believe from what I have gathered this is precisely what he does not want, premies posting on this site).

I like it that you disobey his agya. I like it that you sort of warp it to what you wish he meant. It shows a little gumption and perhaps a little bit of independant thought. But I do think you know you are going against his wishes but are doing it because you want to. Which is good.

Even if I can't stand a lot of what you say. It is good you disobey him.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 01:44:35 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: premies posting
Message:
i go by what i understand and what i feel. i also don't consider this propagation. if Maharaji corrects me, i will stand corrected, but not with a feeling of guilt or fear.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:38:38 (EST)
From: premieJi
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: premies posting bs from GmomJi
Message:
Dear G's mom,

Hard to say this nicely, but if after reading hundreds of words from red heart and myself, you can come up with this crap, then either you are short of a few brain cells or you are so brainwashed you can't see anything.

You said
I personally believe from what I have gathered this is precisely what he does not want, premies posting on this site

So where did you 'gather' this? From M.? Of course not!
From the expremies here? Yes?

A classic example of how this site spreads misinformation. M,s comment that the web is not a good medium for propagation has become 'Its M' s Agyar not to post on this website.' And you, good little expremie sheep you, repeat it like a parrot.

Listen, there is NO agyar about posting on this site. OK?
So please don't patronise us with complements on disobeying M.

Maybe next time you should think for youself instead of repeating the expremie garbage.

Regards
premieJi
ps this is mild compared with the way premies get spoken to,
and I think you asked for it!
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 03:31:14 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: cadbury@compuserve.com
To: premieJi
Subject: premies posting bs from GmomJi
Message:
There probably is no formal agya for premies not to use the net, BUT....every single premie I have mentioned this site to has said the same thing to me...something like...'well maharaji said the nets's not a good place to discuss K so I won't'. They always drill me though about what is being discussed. The way it works is that he says things strongly to his 'inner circle' and it spreads out like ripples to the 'ordinary' premies who are busting t heir arses to send him money and make one more festival..sorry ptogram.....eeeer I mean event.

As PremPal once said 'Necessity is the mother of creation'. In a sense he created this site.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:12:14 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: premies posting
Message:
RH:

... i don't worry about unanswered questions, because i do not have the inclination to read every thread here. i can't and won't answer posts i never have read.

That sentiment has a certain familiar ring when compared with the admission that you look to M for understanding, wisdom and love. It seems you can't acknowledge truths that you've ignored, yet you honor falsehoods simply because they've dominated your life.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 01:47:23 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: premies posting
Message:
i don't get the double-talk, Scott T. what are you trying to say? bearing in mind that what you call false may in some cases what i consider true, this is very hard to follow...
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 10:52:33 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: premies posting
Message:
RH:

I understand, believe me.

You can't respond to things you ignore.

You look for love where it ain't.

It's a life built on what's not there, see?
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 11:47:29 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: premieJi
Subject: premie ji
Message:
M. himself has always emphasized that the words are not the main point, and when people get stuck on them, they are missing the point. I agree.

So tell me then, doesn't that mean that he never has to admit being wrong about anything? Who else do you know that can skate through life on a 'words don't matter' pass.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:07:33 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Graduation
Message:
What do you think of this idea?

I haven't picked up my diploma yet, but I think I've graduated. Most of us have. We were all looking for something...

We happened to enroll in MJs school. Some of us quit after grade 8 like MJ. Others finished high school. Some went for the B.A., Masters and the most sad went for the PHd.

I have always been the drop out type. As another ex in town pointed out, I was complaining right after receiving K that the whole thing had been a hoax (I had sort of done these techniques on my own as a kid). In fact, I have been expressing doubts and taking prolonged vacations ever since I started.

Another friend called to tell me that if I seek the negative, I will find it. She said it was too bad that I hadn't come to the video last Friday. I told her it was ok. Someone has sent me copies of the whole program (Miami 8-10/98) program. I watched the first one. She said well you got the message then. OH YES--

1. The doubt maker kills everything.

2. Complainers are the worst (put up and shut up).

3. a) A man (seeker) is thirsty.
b) The villagers tell him to go see the man by the river.
c) Concept 1 - He gets there and sees the river. He says I
don't need this man. I'll get my own water.
d) Concept 2 - He jumps into the dirty river.
e) Concept 3 - He starts to drown.
f) Concept 4 - The keeper of the water jumps in and saves him.
g) Concept 5 - The keeper says you can't drink that water.
That's why I sit here. I have clean water here.
Seeker - OH

MJ then says have many OHs have we had in life.

As the premie pointed out(unfortunately, someone I got involved), I am looking for the worst and complaining, so that is what I am finding.

I told her that I was sick of going to videos out of guilt. Sick of meditating because it's an obligation. As MJ said, you have been given the four aces. If you don't use them, do you think you will be given the chance again. I AM SICK OF THE FEAR.

I told her I would be back if and when I felt no obligation or fear.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 14:28:30 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Graduation
Message:
'The doubt maker kills everything.'
Another totally typical statement from a cult leader!
In other words, just the act of doubting is verboten.
That's sick.
I mean, that is REALLY sick!
That means ANY question is a reflection of a doubt, right?
So questions are verboten!!
Only in a cult!

I remember in the late 70's Randy Prouty (famous initiator) did a Q & A session for the ashram residents where I was living. For some reason, I just kept asking questions, even though I knew Randy would not be able to answer them. Normally I was too concerned with my 'image' to get into asking questions because it meant you must not be experiencing anything. But for some reason that day I just didn't care. I think I was beginning to get bored and also I really was curious if the guru was ever going to tell us anything more about the whole experience.
Questions like...
How do you tell the difference between 'mind' and 'brain'. Since they both speak to us in our heads?
Or what if you simply don't experience anything, and you just don't feel good, yet you are remembering holy name which means you're supposed to feel good, right?
Or, when do we get to see the light brighter than ten thousand suns?
Or how come nectar doesn't make me intoxicated the way it was described years ago in the K session?
Or, why is it sometimes you KNOW you're just not in the flow enough to give satsang and other times you just DO know? Should we not give satsang if we are NOT in the flow? Or should we just trust that GMJ will come through regardless?

Well, of course Randy didn't answer any questions in any helpful way. Basically, all he could say was 'have faith' 'meditate' 'Listen to what M says' 'let go' 'don't jump off the boat' 'don't think!' 'relax' 'meditate' 'trust' 'don't let confusion in' etc. etc. ad nauseum.

There was also a vibe in the room that these questions were VERY uncool. Like, come on man, you're in the ashram, you're supposed to be beyond all these questions. You've dedicated your life, you're totally in M's care now, you can't do anything wrong anymore. He's taking care of you completely. Which of course is what M himself said to us. The ashram was HIS shelter. Everything was provided for including your experience.
Which means....HEY, just shut up and sit down!!!

Ooops sorry, I forgot myself for a moment. Truth is the consciousness of bliss, right? right!
Everything else is the mind, right? right!
do whatever M says, right? right!
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 22:53:39 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: face your fear
Message:
look, Maharaji has made it very clear, don't practice because he told you too, practice because you want to. listen because you want to.

if you do these things for any other reason, you will never attain the real goal. fake love doesn't work, and it especially doesn't work with Knowledge. if your heart isn't opening up to it, you cannot do it.

there have been days i practiced without the sincere desire to feel that love within, and those days i didn't get anything out of it. there are days i have listened to Maharaji and been preoccupied with other thoughts or ''analyzing'' what he was saying. those are the times i got nothing out of it. nada.

this path requires an open heart and a sincere desire to know truth. sorry, but guilt and fear just won't cut it. and you and me both wouldn't want it any other way.

and for you, thank goodness the door was open to leave. and one day when and if you can approach again with a freer heart, without guilt or fear, that is when you could/can receive the beautiful freedom, joy and bliss. not before. it just don't work that way. thank God!

what is going to be a challenge for you is to realize that you laid those fears and guilts on yourself, or got them from your childhood and tried to carry them into your Knowledge experience. trying to receive the gifts Maharaji is giving without first letting go of fear and guilt is like trying to go through the eye of a needle, only you are an elephant. ain't gonna work. never did, never will.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:38:28 (EST)
From: Redder Heart Mark
Email: Apple 4256 @aol.com
To: red heart
Subject: face your fear- your Own ?
Message:
what is redder than red ?
what is freer than free ?
A being who has embraced the divinity within themselves
walked past the guilt of the system that says' You'll be back'
and gives themselves Back
the power
that they constantly
gave away to a modern day Gollum
who Appears Enormous at times
by falsely wearing the stolen ring of power . . .

If you want to get high
or more infinite than Cd can imagine
experience the divinity and true self esteem
that goes standard with life
outside the
Emotional Body Belief System
called Maharajism. . .
the experinces are true, but belief-generated . . .
(sort of like someone getting turned on by Red Heels
nothing a priori, just a conditioned response)
natural medition/satsang responses getting
harvested by a guy with time-tested
Bhakti savvy. . .

it is life itself, dear Red Heels,
that says to you
'Live and dwell in your Bhakti beliefs'
for they give you experience,
but one day return to True Life,
so you can be the True Master
of yourself. In finality, your final
master is Your Self.
Accept no substitutes !'

there is something suffocating you red heels
though you may not be at the
stage to acknowledge it yet
it has you here at night after your 'regular, well-adjusted day'
Walking on the Wild Side /breaking agya
flirting and doing battle with the
Unthinkable
Discussing unrelated sexual proclivities
You want more, but you also want the safety of knowing
You've got the real thing back at home. . .
Unfortunately it doesn't work that way
To see the dimensions of the
particular belief system you are in Right Now
you Actually have TO LEAVE IT !

look red heels/prtemieJi
don't be threatened by free speech or the open flow of information
Life's a hell of a lot bigger and grander than
a couple thousand people who get off playing
' Follow the Leader'
in a sweet but disempowering dream.

and of course since M is not the UltimatePower in the
Universe( or its Exclusive Disributor )
and since he still thinks he is ( aka The Master)
and he has no 'Enemies ' but HIMSELF. . .

you've got to have a few people
holding up a mirror

As Cd will tell you there are plenty of people who are
right now 'The Master'
And literally billions of people who will
proudly and smugly tell you
THEY ARE RIGHT
when it comes to the correct homepage
codes to the absolute
CALL IT HUMAN NATURE
yes you are special but
you can't experience what you were designed to experience
Until you become a Smart Spiritual Shopper
Eliminate the Middleman
You'll find truth is greater than you thought
The party cant get started until You Arrived !
And you'll need the same
maybe Even More
Self Adoration and Esteem
than you gave Mr Master
All that good stuff was meant for you !
You sit on the throne for a while !
You deserve it !
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:29:49 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Redder Heart Mark
Subject: Put it in the best of forum!
Message:
That was excellently written Mark. I guess it might need the context of the posts by rh to mean as much as it does. Carol
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 17:21:23 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: face your stupidity
Message:
what is going to be a challenge for you is to realize that you laid those fears and guilts on yourself, or got them from your childhood and tried to carry them into your Knowledge experience.

RH,

This is absolutely stupid. You should call yourself Red Face after this one. Would you like some quotes from Maharaji where he explained that people who left him were far worse off than people who'd never come in the first place and that THEY were in bad shape too, lost in a world of maya? How many would you like? Did you ever see Maharaji's secret initiator handbook from the late 70s, the one with his satsang warning them that if they ever 'got in their minds' they'd fall and break like shattered glass? How about his warning to everyone who got knowledge in the early 70s that the mind was like a poison and knowledge the antidote. 'Better be careful or the mind will get ya'.. kind of thing. (Again, does anyone have a copy of their old Knowledge packet?). How about the truckloads of rotting vegetables metaphor?

Really, you guys!
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 07:19:42 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: cadbury@compuserve.com
To: Jim
Subject: face your stupidity
Message:
Jim,
I'm fairly sure that I have a copy of the 'secret initiator handbook'. I'll have to search my archives and will get back.

Jethro
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:33:47 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: face your fear
Message:
Then why does Maharaji say these obviously fear inducing things?

A child that is told a scary story will be... scared. A child is innocent and it is taught to be afraid by being on the receiving end of scary stories. It is bad to suggest that the fear comes from the child rather than the person who told it scary stories.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 20:05:41 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: face your fear
Message:
Anon:

You're scaring me.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 08:14:10 (EST)
From: premieJi
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jim's Quote of the year
Message:
OK Jim,

Since you just love doing your lawyer thing and putting everyone in the dock, now its your turn. These are your words to Judex.

No one, including me, has worked up any deep-seated prejudice agaist premies. Anyone posting here from the start can tell you that even I have been nothing but polite to premies who have actually been fair and open here. Hey, I'm just that kind of person, I guess.

The whole court's in stitches, Jim. Now, answer the questions.
Did you write this? Do you really believe it to be true? Do you expect anyone to believe you? Or were you just lying.?
Oh, of course you were just joking again, right?

No really Jim ,seriously, I'm worried about your state of mental health. Advanced state of delusion I fear. Perhaps you could plead innocence on the grounds of insanity. Maybe you need a holiday from all this cult exposure stuff.

Warm, caring hugs from premieJi

ps Did you mean for Mirabai and me to fuck off together or separatedly? Where's reds heels? Maybe we could go a threesome!
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 08:56:06 (EST)
From: judex
Email: None
To: premieJi
Subject: Jim's Quote of the year
Message:
Can't help it, LOL. The style is right!

Told by Jim to fuck off in 1998

ps Jim, love and kisses, no disrespect sweetie, laughter is healthy isn't it?
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 10:14:24 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: judex
Subject: correction
Message:
On first reading that post I thought it was funny but now I see it wasn't and my reply doesn't sound very sincere either.
I don't have much of a sense of others at times. I was laughing at the audacity of the writer, not the person to whom it was directed.
Thankyou and goodnight. (It's very late here)
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:30:11 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: premieJi
Subject: Jim's Quote of the year
Message:
The whole court's in stitches, Jim. Now, answer the questions.
Did you write this? Do you really believe it to be true? Do you expect anyone to believe you? Or were you just lying.?
Oh, of course you were just joking again, right?

No really Jim ,seriously, I'm worried about your state of mental health. Advanced state of delusion I fear. Perhaps you could plead innocence on the grounds of insanity. Maybe you need a holiday from all this cult exposure stuff.

Warm, caring hugs from premieJi

ps Did you mean for Mirabai and me to fuck off together or separatedly? Where's reds heels? Maybe we could go a threesome!


premieji,

First, last, I think you should probably fuck off separately. Thanks for asking. That's a really good question. I'll give it some more thought but, for now, I think separate is best.

Anyway, yes I wrote it, yes I believe it and yes I even expect the careful, thouughtful reader in you, the 'inner reader' if I may, to take it seriously. See, premieji, you KNOW in your heart that it's true. And really, dear friend, what else matters?
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:20:39 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: to Jim
Message:
now wait just a minute, Jim! i think we are getting a little too personal when you start deciding who i am going to sleep with.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:31:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: to Jim
Message:
now wait just a minute, Jim! i think we are getting a little too personal when you start deciding who i am going to sleep with.

Not at all, sugar pie,

Send me your picture. (Laurie, if you read this, I'm just kidding. Besides, what the hell are you doing butting in on my obsession? YOU were never in this cult. This is MY cult. You had your own little hippie thing happening. What'd you call it, the Sunrise Family (ha ha ha!). But that's different. This was a real cult, so there!) Anyway, what's for dinner, hm?)
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 11:26:15 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: premieJi
Subject: read with guileless heart
Message:
Premie gee:

Sounds like you have opened the door to doubting Jim.
Don't you know that Mr. Doubt is the great destroyer?
You've opened the door to doubting Jim, and BAM you're a gonner! YOu have now totally lost faith in Jim, just because you opened your mind to confusion!
Read Jim's post with the same mind you listen to your guru with and you will no longer be plagued by these terrible doubts.

-discovered the glories of doubt in '82
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 05:37:37 (EST)
From: judex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: circle of friends
Message:
yes you can see this is going to be a gushy one....step aside all you hard-hearted despicable types with black hats...

yeah I was just lying there in the dark, quietly, the rain was falling, (get the picture) and I thought...wow...I am not alone. I thought of some of you guys and I felt....really good.

Like, I'm starting to feel like Absolutely Fabulous (not Patsy but the other one). So, thank you one and all and may you live to post another couple of thousand at least, each and every one.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 07:08:00 (EST)
From: premieJi
Email: None
To: judex
Subject: circle of friends
Message:
Hey Jude,

Great to hear you are feeling good.

I suspect that feeling good is feeling god.

And that good feeling can be there all the time!

ps. I thought your original 'premies' thread was great.

Regards
premieJi
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 08:55:09 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: premieJi
Subject: circle of enemies
Message:
Glad you find us helpful, Judex.
Premieji wrote:
'And that good feeling can be there all the time!'
This is typical premiespeak. What's more it's dangerous bullshit if anyone believes it. Following M does not make people happy all the time. Meditation does not make people happy all the time. Who are you trying to kid Premieji? It's the same old trite story, the same old simplistic lie. Premies are no different and no happier than anyone else. Sure, you can fool yourself into believing you are but if a crisis comes, you're just the same as anyone else.
Trying to perpetrate this 'Alice in Wonderland' fantasy of constant happiness is a deceitful thing to do. Thankfully, very few people here are going to believe you. Good feelings come but premies have no monopoly on them. It's arrogant to assume so.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:42:35 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: premieJi
Subject: circle of friends
Message:
I suspect that feeling good is feeling god.

And that good feeling can be there all the time!


Actually one of the things I was thinking about when I felt that way was VP saying he knows he will be independent when he dies.

I was thinking I want to feel that way when I die. Not afraid. I can't put it into words easily but it's like, since birth I've been attached and at death I will be free.

I really don't need to be told I can feel that way all the time. And I wasn't feeling god, I was feeling myself.

and the presence of others who are like me, at times, and at other times unlike me, but at least I can hear them - not just bloody blank silence and sweeping in and out of video rooms listening to a dream and being told I'm awake. You know?
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:40:48 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Death
Message:
'I was thinking I want to feel that way when I die. Not afraid. I can't put it into words easily but it's like, since birth I've been attached and at death I will be free.'

Judex,

I don't want to be afraid of death either, but I probably will be, unless I die very old -when this body is a burden to me- and in my sleep. If a huge truck is coming into my lane head-on I will probably poop in my pants!

Seriously, I think I was trying to make the point that there are certain things that we have to handle alone in our lives. For example when we are sick or (for you gals out there) experiencing labor and birth, or dealing with the death of someone we love, our own death, etc. It's scary and lonely, but accepting that we have to be and can be independent can be liberating. To be able to handle these things without overeating or taking drugs or leaning on Maharaji. We really can be strong. We can be independent when we must be.

I don't know whether or not you knew, but I had a really good friend commit suicide. This person was a premie and that is part of the reason that I like to participate in these discussions on the site. (Also, reading everyone's posts helps me personally as well) Maybe we WILL be free of problems at death, but I don't want to encourage anyone to believe that death is an answer to the problems that we have in our lives. (I'm not talking about people who hire Dr. Kavorkian-sp? because that is a different issue entirely.)

I was told that my friend went to 'merge with the creator through K and M' and that I should be happy about his death. Suicide is NO solution to unhappiness. It causes so much more pain and unhappiness for those left behind. It's quite selfish IMHO to use it for this purpose. Hope I didn't lead you to think I believed anything otherwise, Judex.

I want to be able to handle death well, too, but right now it would separate me from my family and circle of friends, eating ice cream, having sex and dancing, seeing sunsets, going to the beach, etc. It's really low on my list of things to do today :-) VP
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:58:26 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Death
Message:
Hi VP,
Funny you should bring this topic up today when I'm so down. When I get depressed, I immediately drop into a very deep pit. Happened to me yesterday, but I managed to drag myself out a bit today. I decided 3 years ago that I will not kill myself because of what it would do to my kids. It makes me feel trapped not to have that out. But like you say, I can't look at it as a solution to my problems. It would hurt so many.

Remaining in a grateful, positive frame of mind is difficult for me, but I keep striving in that direction.
eb
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 17:33:16 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Hang on, baby!
Message:
I think that your committment to your kids is very admirable, eb! That is one of the things I meant about suicide leaving so much hurt behind. My friend left kids behind and the toll was devastating. Anyway, good for you, eb!

I am not having a really great day (the whole last few weeks have been really hard) but what keeps me going is remembering that our life is made of ups and downs. I try not to let the down times take over (they have from time to time, though. I have to be honest.) I try to keep in mind that there is going to be a hill on the other side of the valley.

I also try to think about the positive things-my kids, ice cream. Remember in Peter Pan when the kids have to think about happy thoughts in order to fly? I think that is a metaphor for what I have to do to get myself out of the dumps. Sometimes I can look in my kids faces and that will do the trick. Sometimes I have to try harder. I imagine that all of the Christmas presents are bought and wrapped already...just kidding

Hope you are out of your valley soon, eb. You are welcome to email me if you are ever feeling bad. VP
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 21:00:51 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: eb
Subject: Death - I did it
Message:
I did it. I committed suicide in 1976. I came round from my drug overdose three days later and found myself lying on my living room floor. I remembered having been in a place somewhere and having some very kind and understanding people talking to me and explaining to me that this (suicide) was not the way. They told me that I could go back and live here again because that was what I was meant to be doing.

So I did come back from death and although I was extremely ill, I was glad to be back and having a second chance. This counts as a near death experience that I had. And please, if anyone disagrees or is sceptical about it, now is not the appropriate time and place to argue about it. I had taken enough drugs to kill an elephant but got a second chance. Life is worth living, there is a purpose for it and it's not Maharaji. Live life and when it really is your time to die, you will be glad you lived your life. Sometimes life is supposed to be hard, that is what I understood. It's a bit like a training course that we volunteered for. Don't quit now. Stick around and see what happens. By the time it's over you'll be glad you did. And no matter how tough it can get down here, it's worth hanging in there. Believe me I know. And when the race is run, you'll hear the applause of the waiting throng on the other side...
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 21:32:14 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Sir David and VP
Subject: The Lighter Side of Death
Message:
Dear friends,
I came home to a lively 7-year old son who wants to play that he's a giant cockroach and I'm a rock. So I'll have to make this quick.

I appreciate your words, David and VP. And your compassion. It's important for me to re-train my thinking. Suicide is not an option, and sinking into depression doesn't help me solve my problems. I appreciate the reminders.

I think we'll have ice cream for dessert.
eb
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:01:45 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: eb
Subject: The Lighter Side of Death
Message:
Dear eb,
I am crying AGAIN but this time it is happiness. Kids can be so great, sometimes, eh? You can pretend to be 'not living' as a rock, maybe it'll help you realize living is better. I have been very depressed in my life but never thought I was brave enough to commit suicide so I am not the person to talk to you about it. Just know you are a dear, talented, intelligent and valuable person and there are many more that would miss you than just your kids!
Love you,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:27:50 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: near death
Message:
near death
near friend
near truth
near pregnant
near love
near sandwich
near beer?

sorry babe, 'near' anything just ain't the real thing. interesting experience, but it wasn't death or you wouldn't be posting today. (near Knowledge doesn't work either, practiced by a near student, treating himself as his own near Master.)

sorry, sir. had to be said.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 08:31:48 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: red heart
Subject: near death
Message:
Dear Red Heart; Your ignorence and rudeness show no limits. You are completely ignorent of the whole spectrum of human experience. You quite clearly, do yourself a dis-service. I would stop posting here before you embarrass yourself even further. You are doing no good to Maharaji's cause here. I should imagine any waverer who is reading your posts is pretty turned off by your superior 'know all' attitude. You are beyond a joke.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:29:38 (EST)
From: cheese fan club
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Death - I did it
Message:
Glad you got a second chance. I think your purpose in this second life is to keep us entertained with cheese and grasshopper stories (and to remind us to keep our hearts open while our minds are open simultaneously).

Seriously, I am really glad that you made it here and your attitude about what happened with you is right on the money.

Here's to life! VP
Resident Cheerleader
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 08:39:59 (EST)
From: Cheddar by name
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Cheddar by nature
Subject: Death - I did it
Message:
Thanks VP. I mentioned my near death experience because it may help someone who is contemplating suicide. It HAS helped some people before. Bleeding Heart's negative response is a clear indication of where she is coming from. Her attitude is of no help to anyone, least of all, someone who may be feeling low.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 03:08:14 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Death - I did it
Message:
Dear David, thanks for sharing this. When I was a really bad drug addict I had a dream that I was in a kind of school with a lot of other people, just sitting at these white outdoor tables in small groups. The dream seemed to say that I just needed to learn more. There was absolutely no guilt. (I was pretty close to wiping out).

I believe in your dream. I did a past life regression and found to my interest that not only did I see the past life (not in fantastic detail but clear enough to me what the themes were), but then I was in a drawing room with all the 'characters' from that life. And we were discussing what had happened. There was absolutely no guilt or blame, that was made clear to me.
It was really very interesting. But I wasn't 'dead', like you were.

Again, I don't think there's the need to knock or dispute this. It works on whatever level it works at. It works for me to believe there is more than me, and there is help, and there are kind strangers. I used to dream of them, too. When I found M I thought I was home. Maybe I was for a while. I always dreamt of going to places where very kind, loving people who I knew really well were with me.

Sometimes I want the forum to be like that but I know it can't be, it just is what it is. I am afraid of showing affection to people here but I just feel so much gratitude sometimes. This beats the novel I always wanted to write. This is the two-way street! Cheers David.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 08:46:32 (EST)
From: Sir David of Cheddar
Email: David.Studio57@btinterne.com
To: Judex
Subject: A pleasure, Judex
Message:
Always a pleasure to communicate things to you. Always a pleasure to get an appreciative reply. And a pleasure to read about your own revelations.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 03:10:19 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Sir David,VP,eb
Subject: Death -
Message:
Hello David, VP, eb,
I decided long ago that I would run away and start a new life if I ever felt so bad that I wanted to do myself in, but I couldn't abandon my children either way, so I'm still here. The closest I've come is a passive way: For a few years I often would not wear my seatbelt (and sometimes drove too fast when upset). I got a ticket for it and had to go to a class on it where you see lots of accident pictures and so on!
My 9 year old son who has Tourette's and Asperger's was recently talking about wanting to commit suicide. It was a stress reaction to people saying that he is voluntarily making noises or using his TS as an excuse for behavior he can control. His Pychiatrist who diagnosed him last Nov. said to him last Thursday that he might not have Tourettes. (He did not want him to use TS as an excuse.)My son cried and said he wanted to jump out the window and couldn't trust anyone because they don't believe him. I was angry at the Dr. and will not return. His principal and teachers also said they thought there was a strong voluntary component in his behavior. I think they're full of it! They just make his stress level increase which causes an increase in symptoms!

He is doing better now. His annoying noises have decreased, too. I had to try to dissuade him from thinking of suicide and I believe I was successful. I told him that since we did not create ourselves that our creator would be unhappy if we threw our gift of life away and that if we got another life, it might have even more problems in it. I told him about all the great things he has going for himself and that he has special abilities and unlimited possibilities. I told him I loved him and I would do whatever I could to help him meet his challenges and to help other people understand him. I have been more understanding and tolerant of the noises and they have diminished!
Love,Carol
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 03:28:40 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Death -
Message:
That sounds very good Carol, what you told him. It sounds like he may be thinking the term 'voluntary' means 'his fault'. They're two very different things IMO. Much care is needed, and you obviously have the sensitivity to know exactly what he can handle and what he cannot. I suppose you realise the doctors are actually trying to help him because anything (if anything) he can control will help to empower him. But it is a very fine line, as you say and obviously know very well. Love to you both.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 08:44:13 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Doctors and children
Message:
Dear Carol - I am sorry about what the doctor and other people said to your son. I have had some bad experiences with psychiatrists and doctors basically being full of shit (and so has my sister - her daughter has neurological damage which was just discovered after nine years of seeing doctors!!!).

I am glad you're taking your son to a different doctor, and that you are supportive and accepting of him - it can ONLY help. Acceptance makes such a difference. Also, I truly believe (from experience) that children definitely need an advocate in the US health care system (so do adults for that matter, but we can usually be our own advocates!). Anyway, it sounds like you're being a great mom.

BTW, I can't believe you drove without a seat belt! Not that I think it's shocking or anything - people take much worse risks every day - but it definitely shows me another side of you. I'm glad you're doing it now.

Take care of yourself, Carol,
Love,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 01:01:32 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: depressssssion
Message:
Hi eb,

Sorry to hear about your deep pit. Just wanted to share a little of my own experience with depression. I feel like I'm pretty much out of a long (seven or eight years) low-grade depression and it wasn't much fun but I have to admit that I like the person who came out of it better than the person who went in. I think I'm stronger and wiser now.

I see strength and wisdom in how you handle yourself on the forum and I appreciate those qualities. I have learned a lot here from you and others. Things that were not easily won.

Meanwhile, here's a little news item to cheer you up: 'A Boston Globe report from Moscow described the Russian passion of ice-fishing. One 54-year-old angler, who said he has fallen many times into the black water of the Moscow River in winter, sat in 0-degree Fahrenheit weather with a line in each hand, perched over small holes all day long, with no fish to show for it, but still exclaimed 'Isn't this great! This is not about what you catch. This is about total relaxation.' Last year when 75 anglers near St. Petersburg were swept away on a platform of ice and were rescued nine hours later by helicopter, fights broke out over which ones got to be the last ones aboard so that they could remain fishing even longer.' Somehow the whole story reminds me of Maharaji and DLM. There is just a fanatical streak in the human makeup.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:36:06 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: depressssssion
Message:
Dear Peter,
Great post! What a hoot! Just the fact that you chose that particular article indicates your depth of understanding of depression. My own gives me a very strange sense of humor.

I have a book called, 'Being Present in the Darkness' by Cheri Huber. I think it's like Mindfulness Meditation. Reading it while I'm in a fair-to-good mood is okay. But I admit I have not mastered being present in the darkness when I really need it. For one thing, I (like many) can't afford the luxury of taking a few days off and really being with the experience. I have learned ways to avoid dealing with it just until the kids get through college, the house is paid off, and I retire (or so I tell myself).

I suspect that watching a Marx bros. or Woody Allen movie to lift my spirit might be cheating, but it sure beats lying in bed weeping hour after hour. Thanks for the lift, Peter.

With love,
eb
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:40:00 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: to VP - independence/intimacy
Message:
Yes I knew exactly that's what you meant. Interesting how I translated it. I knew you meant being strong and accepting your aloneness. For example I go to bed alone every night. When I don't have company I eat alone. I am alone at home a lot. I am used to it now. I don't even know if I could accept a partner who I lived with. I am used to short-term relationships. I avoid intimacy. etc, etc. But I also avoid being really honest with myself and seeing that I am just like other people and have the same needs. There is a real rebel in me that says 'fuck you' to everything and it's pretty stupid. It's also not the same thing as being independent. It's childish. You can be independent while being really closely linked to others. I know that in my head.

No, how it translated was that finally, one day, when I die, I will really accept myself fully without thinking I need others. But maybe that is way too extreme. Maybe I need the connected part first, then I can get on with being the lone heroine of my fantasy.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:52:29 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: to VP - independence/intimacy
Message:
Sounds like you are more together than you know, or than I am for that matter. Especially today when I am wallowing in the valley with eb (who is probably on the mountain top enjoying ice cream by now :) What you said makes sense to me.

VP
Dreaming of Peter Pan
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:30:29 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: VP
Subject: to VP - independence/intimacy
Message:
Dear VP,
Sorry you are down. Have some ice cream! :) Put on those cat pj's. Do something for yourself, you too eb!
I use to have a recurring dream as a kid. I'd be walking down a board walk and my foot would go through a rotted spot on the board walk and a shark would come and pull my under by my leg. Peter Pan always saved me. He/she can do it for you too! Feel better dear.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:39:50 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Peter Pan...
Message:
abandoned Wendy and flew away with Mary poopins!
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 20:44:51 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Oops..Mary Poppins
Message:
not poopins.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:31:42 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Oops..Mary Poppins
Message:
I thought there might be a hidden meaning to that...it was funny that way. Wasn't there some thing about a 'Peter Pan syndrome' a while back? I remember hearing something about that but didn't pay much attention to it.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:57:07 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Thanks, Robyn
Message:
I had some pizza instead:-)
I even got someone else to deliver it (how's that for taking care of myself?) I had a situation that was really bringing me down, but I realized that it was one of those 'for the best' kind of things, so I feel a lot happier today. And I took my own advice to eb and that helped. Thanks a lot, gal!

I like the Peter Pan dream. (I never realized how obnoxious Peter was until I read the original version by J.M. Barrie to my kids last year, BTW.) I still like him though. Can you imagine living on the island of never never land? Do you think that is where Maharaji is trying to live:

1) Never have to pay your own bills
2) Never have to work for a living
3) Never have to have real intimacy with anyone
4) Never have to figure out messy relationships
5) Never have to be responsible

M is a better Peter Pan than Peter himself, me thinks.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 01:41:37 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: same dream
Message:
Well, not the same, but amazingly close. I only had one recurring dream, and it was that Captain Hook was chasing me around and around our house, in one door and out the other, and finally he chased me away from our house and off a cliff. I'd fall way down into the water, it was a perfectly round lake surrounded by a cliff on all sides (I had never seen one, but it turns out that they really have lakes like this in Mexico, called cenotes). So I couldn't climb out and I just had to swim around and around but it turned out that the rest of my family was down there too.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 08:50:35 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Peter
Subject: same dream
Message:
Dear Peter,
Your dream didn't need Peter, I guess, because that is who you are! That is neat thought and you know I just love life's little, and big coincidences. :)
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:09:16 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: same dream(off topic)
Message:
Hi Robyn,
Just realized that we are in real time, I think? So I wanted to say good morning to you and have a great day! Signing off of this box until later.
VP
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:40:44 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: circle of friends
Message:
Judex, I can relate to your feeling not only from being in a circle of friends at the Forum, but by identifying as a human being in common with the millions. I am free to feel human connection and understanding with anyone, not just premies. I am so happy to be free from the superiority and judgement feelings that were so common when I thought I knew something or had something that others didn't. We all have the same capacity for love and compassion but it was stifled when I was a premie.
Carol
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 03:22:23 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: circle of friends
Message:
Yes Carol and not having/needing that 'special' person who you were just waiting for to light up your life (like Maharaji). Not being that 'special' magical (aloof, disconnected) person and not having that magical supermaster to take you to the heights. Just being here. Fuck, it's so hard sometimes.

However, good news, I got my 256 colours back on my computer. My ex came over and fixed it back up. It's like he's making amends and so am I. No need for guilt, we were just never on the same wavelength and never will be, in certain important ways. Forgiveness, finally.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 03:33:56 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Your ex
Message:
That's great! I recently told my first ex-husband, who I married at 17 and left at age 21 when I received K with our 3 yr old son, about this sight. I said that he was right a along, or if I didn't word it that way I will now. It was just another of my trips that took me away from him. We have always remained friendly and are both happily married. (I have another ex who is probably still a premie and who is not particularly friendly to his kids or me.)
Carol
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:32:52 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Judex
Subject: circle of friends
Message:
Dear Judex,
Glad to hear you and your ex had an amiable meeting. I know that has been a hard one for you. And look at your reward, color! Beautiful! Instent gratification.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:27:23 (EST)
From: Patsy to Edina
Email: None
To: judex
Subject: circle of friends
Message:
Hey Eddy!

Too bad you're halfway around the world--we should get together. I feel a lot like Patsy these days. I don't drink as much, but I do ogle the young guys a bit.

Actually, did you ever see the American TV sitcom, Soap? It was on in the 80's I think, so I only caught it in reruns. Anyway, I've been told that I'm a combo between Mary and Jessica. I hope it was a compliment.

Regards,
eb
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 14:58:10 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Patsy to Edina
Subject: btw, eb...
Message:
Hey Eb

I've been meaning to ask you. Somewhere below, you accused Randy Prouty of pretending like he didn't know he was so good looking when he was around the sisters.

I have the same problem, I mean what are us really good-looking guys supposed to do?

Wear a sign saying, 'Yes, I KNOW I'm handsome, please take a number and be patient.' ?

seeking sensitivity,
John
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:25:25 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: John
Subject: btw, eb...
Message:
Hi John,
Great question!

But let me ask you first: Are you one of those really good- looking guys who sweet-talked your way into the sisters' hearts (and beds) with satsang or using the plain old-fashioned 'Hey baby, wanna __________ (your favorite euphemism inserted here)?'?

In the spirit of fun,
eb
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:46:02 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: John
Subject: To sensitive John
Message:
Hope I didn't offend you with my loaded question. I like the button idea. Randy could've worn one that said, 'Eat Your Heart Out; Mine Belongs To Maharaji.'

eb
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 17:01:09 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: blush blush
Message:
In the cult, I was really into celibacy, with just a few lapses.
I actually kinda enjoyed falling in love with 'sisters' and not having the pressure of having to deal with SEX. It was liberating for a basically shy sensitive guy like yours truly.

to be continued...
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 03:36:37 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Patsy to Edina
Subject: circle of friends
Message:
And like Patsy & Ed I can imagine a heaven where Marianne
Faithful sings (anything). Chiou!
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:52:35 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: judex
Subject: circle of friends
Message:
Dear Judex,
Thanks dear, you know I worship you! :)
I get gushy too and what can we do about it but let it out and hope some others can appreciate our warm feelings.
It is GREAT to hear you are feeling fabulous!
Love you,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:53:54 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Judex
Subject: and...
Message:
Dear Judex,
Forgot to mention I haven't had much time here lately and knew I wanted to read this thread, glad I got to it before it was gone.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 23:52:40 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: and...
Message:
Dear Robyn, hope whatever you are doing is good for you. Thanks for being so nice, I needed it today! Take care.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:14:34 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Independence, Scott-off topic
Message:
Scott,

I just found your post to me on the topic of Independence in the inactive. (I have been gone due to the Father's Day weekend) I don't want to be rude and not answer your question.

I didn't go into great detail about independence in that post to bftb. I probably should have. I wanted to refute the Da whats-his-name's idea that most of the problems of mankind stem from our stiving to be independent. He claims that this causes us misery because attaining this goal is impossible. Don't misunderstand me. Family and friends are wonderful and necessary. To be totally independent is probably not desirable. This guy was stating that we cannot be independent from devoting to a master, though. When I said that I was independent, this is what I was referring to. I am independent of that devotional relationship to Maharaji and desire to stay that way.

Hope that clears that up. Sorry I wasn't clearer the first time.

VP
Will be independent at the time of death...
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:30:31 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Independence, Scott-off topic
Message:
VP:

I wasn't questioning your statement. The point was that we CAN be independent if we want to. In spite of what Da says, the inter-dependence is up to us, not to a master (who isn't 'inter' anything).

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 00:05:41 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Independence, Scott-off topic
Message:
I agree completely. I just requested your opinion about fundamentalism vs. revisionism down below. Did you read that part of the Guru Papers yet? VP
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 00:11:53 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Independence, Scott-off topic
Message:
VP:

I just requested your opinion about fundamentalism vs. revisionism down below. Did you read that part of the Guru Papers yet?

No, not yet. Went for a long run today, and just crashed afterward.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 22:57:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Here's why, Katie
Message:
Katie,

Down below you said that you weren't going to post any further in that thread that had turned into a Chris thread. So, I've started another. :) (I know you don't like emoticoms but, know what, they serve a purpose ;) ) Anyway, I think I know why you're able to continue to defend Chris and miss the point about him as you do: you avoid thinking or discussing the matter thoroughly. Why didn't you respond to this part of my post:

Can you imagine sitting down for a discussion with Chris. Sorry, I mean a discussion about Maharaji. Tell me, what do you imagine?

What I imagine is Chris, with a big fat smile on his face, saying 'sorry, I don't really want to talk about him'. That's what would happen in real life. That's what happened with Gerry, isn't it? Fine, so they enjoyed each other in other respects. Great.

So why's it so different here? If he doesn't want to discuss Maharaji here, why does he keep pretending to? It's behaviour that no one could possibly tolerate in real life. I don't see what the fact that we're here makes it any more acceptable.


That's the whole point. I don't mind Chris coming here. What I do mind is his hiding on his little perch, throwing out his own questions yet refusing to answer 90% of those others answer. Come on, Katie, that's exactly what he did with you! You say you're not a mind reader and hesitate to speculate about Chris' attitude here. But don't forget that when you yourself politely asked him about this, and whether or not he was purposely getting peoples' goat (goats?), he told you to mind your own business!

Katie, I'm certainly not the only person who feels that their patience gets exhausted at times by CD. Are you saying that all the others deserve it too because they've been impolite to him? I hope not. That would be ridiculous.

You've got to remember that Chris and I have been doing this for a while. If you think I just started picking on him for no reason, that kind of thing, I'd really wonder why you'd like me at all. I wouldn't like a person like that. Even if it wasn't directed at me, I'd be offended. Yet you're willing to call em your friend, Chris your friend, everyone your friend. What the hell does that mean, anyway? If I'm bullying Chris then I'm an asshole and don't deserve anyone's friendship here. That's how I'd feel.

A long time ago I asked you to intervene in the hopes of finding out just what's going on with this guy. He brushed you off and you asked me to leave you out of it from that point onward. I have but everytime I give him shit for being a perverse little weenie, you jump back in, say a bit, then say you don't want to talk about it, etc. etc. What the hell...?

Please, just do me a big favour, and answer the questions I reposted. If Chris behaved like this in a living room with your friends, asked questions but never answered them, etc., would you accept that?

Oh yeah, Mirabai and premiji, fuck off.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 03:35:52 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Here's why, Katie
Message:
No,I won't fuck off Jim. We're all entitled to our view points here thankyou very much. Even you with all the dirt that seeps from your mouth.

Lovingly Mirabai
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:34:02 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Here's why, Katie
Message:
Dear Jim - I really DON'T want to answer this, but I am going to because you are mis-stating my position (and because you said Please).

You wrote:
Anyway, I think I know why you're able to continue to defend Chris and miss the point about him as you do: you avoid thinking or discussing the matter thoroughly. Why didn't you respond to this part of my post? (quote about sitting down for a discussion with Chris about M follows.)

Jim, I didn't answer that part of your post because it wasn't within the scope of our original argument. Here was the original sequence of events: you asked Chris a question, then you suggested that he was mentally ill and needed psychiatric care, then you called him a coward for not answering your post. My answer was that I didn't think he was cowardly for not answering your questions after you had insulted him by telling him he needed immediate psychiatric care.

I didn't bring up anything about his discussing or not discussing Maharaji, and I don't want to expand my defense of him to defending the way he talks about Maharaji. That is for him to do.

Some other things that I didn't say:
- I didn't say that you are the only person who loses patience and flames CD. I think you are one of the only people who flames CD and THEN expects him to answer your questions, though. (I may be wrong about this.)

- I didn't say that you picked on CD for no reason. I said that you shouldn't expect CD to answer your questions after you'd been picking on him. I know CD irritates you, and that's why you pick on him. I just wonder why you keep trying to communicate with him if his style is so irritating to you.

Furthermore, I think that you ask the premies really loaded questions and they are damned if they answer them and damned if they don't. I am not sure that you just want an answer - I think you want them to answer so you can attack their answer. I don't think that they feel that you are asking sincere questions (I don't know if you are or not, either). You are really good at arguing, and IMHO, I that many of the premies just don't feel that they can sustain an argument with you. Thus they don't argue because they don't want to be made to look stupid.

This doesn't mean I think you should stop asking those questions (I am sure there are many premies who are still willing to take you on), but I think it might help to explain why CD, who has been around for a year and seen many premies go down in flames, won't answer your questions.

I am sorry, Jim, that I won't answer your questions, but I don't want to expand this argument to cover things it didn't originally cover.. That is why I said I wouldn't answer any more. I think I've made my point here.

Regards from Katie
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 11:38:36 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The last word
Message:
Kstie,

I don't expect you to answer this. Too bad. We might actually get to the bottom of this. Anyway, you'll read this and can answer for yourself. Maybe one day, you'll talk in your sleep and Peter can email me with your further thoughts. (Hey, I can say anything now, right?).

Ah, the cycle of abuse! Katie, you're right, I called CD brain-damaged first ---THIS time. Had this been our premier encounter, Chris and mine, not only would my comment have been extremely rude and uncalled for, it would have left him certainly justified in not responding at all to me.

But, alas, this was FAR from my first communication 'with' Chris. Anyone familiar with him at all knows exactly what I'm talking about, so does he, so do you, so should Mirabai and premieji. Enough said.

Next, Katie, AGAIN you've avoided answering my questions. Maybe that explains why you think Chris doesn't have to answer questions either. Here's what you said:

Furthermore, I think that you ask the premies really loaded questions and they are damned if they answer them and damned if they don't. I am not sure that you just want an answer - I think you want them to answer so you can attack their answer. I don't think that they feel that you are asking sincere questions (I don't know if you are or not, either).

Katie, of course, I'm asking 'loaded' questions. That doesn't mean I don't want an answer and it sure doesn't mean they're not 'sincere'.

Popel ask questions for different reasons. Sometimes, because the SINCERELY want to learn something, other times because they SINCERELY want to make a point. There's nothing 'insincere' about rhetorical questions. It's an argument device, isn't it? It forces people to either leave the conversation -- like you've done here -- or, if they're willing to, to ADMIT certain things.

Think about it. Why wouldn't you answer my questions? To me, who has the last word here, the answer's obvious: you just don't want to admit that Chris is behaving like a central casting cult member. Why you think it's so important to protect him like that is completely beyond me.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:21:58 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The last word
Message:
Jim:

No offense, but I don't think you're winning any converts. Nor do I think they are converting you. I fail to see where this is getting us. It's now time for you to indicate that you respect Katie's position, even though you may not agree with or understand it, IMHO.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:07:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: What's that??
Message:
No offense, but I don't think you're winning any converts. Nor do I think they are converting you. I fail to see where this is getting us. It's now time for you to indicate that you respect Katie's position, even though you may not agree with or understand it, IMHO.

Scott,

First, I'm not sure who thinks what around here. Are you? Shall we take a poll? Don't forget to include the lurkers. Anyway, converts or not, I'm just telling it like I call it. As for telling Katie I respect her position, is that what you got from my post? That I respect her position? If not, why would you ask me to tell her that?

Quite frankly, I respect Katie generally but I don't repsect her position here at all. Do you? If so why?
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:34:25 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: COM101
Message:
Come on Jim, you've been in the 90's as long as the rest of us.
Respect for another's position is required now to show everyone how sensitive and understanding you are. You could say exactly what you want to say, if you would just frame it in the proper parlance of the day.

In other words,

Dear Generic Premie:
I really appreciate your posting here, and I really appreciate where you are coming from, and I really admire your courage in posting on this forum which must be soo very difficult for you since there is so much blatant negativism expressed towards M.

That said, you really are a total asshole and an idiot!

Well, it's been great sharing this with you, and I look forward to hearing more from you, so we can continue this dialogue, and I do appreciate your efforts to reach out to us here.

with heartfelt understanding and repsect,
gentle Jim

See how simple it could be, if you would just be hip to the current cultural communication protocols.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:50:23 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John
Subject: COMedy101
Message:
That's great, John,

I keep forgetting to frame things appropriately and this, I appreciate, raises some concerns. Given a choice between beingcaring and respectful or insincere, I'd hope to choose whatever modality I feel really works for me.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 03:27:37 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: COMedy101
Message:
Jim, I felt a strong urge to say mean things to a certain poster strutting around in red heels. I wish I felt your freedom to insult. Carol
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:08:29 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: To far, by long
Message:
Jim:

Quite frankly, I respect Katie generally but I don't repsect her position here at all. Do you? If so why?

Yeah, I do, though I can see merit in yours as well. I'm not sure I can hope to change someone's mind without giving them some rope. Let's suppose you have two people who live in two 'language spheres,' so that the subjective meanings that attach to certain word constructs are not the same as the meanings evoked in the other person by the same constructs. For the two to reach agreement, or even to effectively communicate, there must come a point where the person doing the movement must feel uncompelled and uncoerced. In other words that he can maintain what he feels are his compelling meanings and attachments without feeling that he is being undermined into replacing his own meanings with those of the opponent. At that point it doesn't make any difference who is 'right,' since the issue is meaning and not correctness. Feeling that his convictions are not undermined by the other's meanings he is free to try those on (like going into a changing room where he can't be observed) and if they fit to begin to wear them himself. If they don't fit he can then complain about the unfitness, so that you're at least getting somewhere. The willingness to go to those lengths to understand what another is saying is probably related to whether they believe the other is really willing to go into the changing room, or is just faking it.

The problem I have with your version of rationality is that it makes no allowance for this dimension of meaning, which is connected to an individual's sense of integrity. I've been through processes where people are able to work through these differences in interpretation and the results are impressive. It does allow movement toward an objective truth, where non seemed possible before. CD clearly feels threatened, whether that threat is justified in your eyes, or even objectively. The threat might not be a matter of either brain damage or willful design (although those are acceptable theories).

Something fascinating is going on here, I think. No one is as irritated with CD as you, and that may be because you are more rigorous than the rest of us. Then again, it might be that something of vital importance has not yet entered into the debate, something that none of us has seen but that a different process might reveal. We won't know unless the process changes. Note that I haven't brought up Sigourney Weaver again. I'm afraid you think she's not good enough for me.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:20:56 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Too foo foo by far
Message:
. Let's suppose you have two people who live in two 'language spheres,' so that the subjective meanings that attach to certain word constructs are not the same as the meanings evoked in the other person by the same constructs.

Now why in the world would I want to suppose anything as exotic as that? Scott, don't be ridiculous. CD and I speak the same language, English, and, as an added bouns, I'm even well-versed in his chosen dialect, premiespeak.

How about this? Suppose you have a person who, once captured as a young man by a 70s cult leader, refuses to back up and reconsider the terms of entailment. Thus, he never allows himself to consider any evidence contadicting his master's supremecy. Instead, he talks without reason and, on at least one occasion, openly admits that reason to him is hogwash in matters of the heart. Still, he attends a DISCUSSION group focused on the very matter he will not allow himself to really consider, let alone openly discuss. Worse, he even ask questions as if to goad others into thinking that he's there to discuss when really he's just there to show off his chains.

Suppose that for a bit, will ya?

And, by the way, you never explained WHY you respect Katie's position. Would you please?
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:26:52 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Too foo foo by far
Message:
Jim:

And, by the way, you never explained WHY you respect Katie's position. Would you please?

I respect Katie's position because it's hers, and I'm not omniscient.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:30:49 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Too foo foo by far
Message:
I respect Katie's position because it's hers, and I'm not omniscient.

So, more accurately, it's not Katie's position you respect, it's Katie herself? Put otherwise, would you then say you necessarily respect all Katies' opinions, whether you know what they are or not? Is this the beginning of the Katie cult? A new reign of terror?
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:57:10 (EST)
From: Scott
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Katie the Terrible
Message:
Jim:

So, more accurately, it's not Katie's position you respect, it's Katie herself? Put otherwise, would you then say you necessarily respect all Katies' opinions, whether you know what they are or not? Is this the beginning of the Katie cult? A new reign of terror?

I guess if I was as sure she is wrong as you are I'd not respect the position. I'm just not that sure. I am pretty sure that nether you nor Chris are going to change. And to tell the truth I don't really give a shit whether Chris changes. And I think I see why you do.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 17:15:23 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim/Scott
Subject: Answers
Message:
Scott and Jim,

Don't be so sure no one else is irritated with CD. I am irritated with CD. (Not just because of the little email posting he did to me either.) I was irritated before, and that is why I was saying stuff about him to Robyn in the first place. I think CD is a basically nice guy. Personally I like him, but I just wish he would answer Jim or really have a discussion with someone on the forum. To his credit he will have a discussion off of the forum, but he still won't answer all of the questions, right, CD?

Seriously, CD knows he doesn't answer all of the questions. He doesn't have to. He thinks that he's right and you are wrong. Just like you think you are right. What puzzles and irritates me is that if CD is right, wouldn't his arguments make logical sense if he presented them? I.E., if he is correct in an argument, couldn't he defend his position?? If he doesn't want to do that why does he come here? (unless it is to talk sense into the fence sitters which is also irritating to me!)

So I guess the main reason I am irritated is that he comes to a place designed to engage people in discussion, but doesn't do so. CD, it's your perogative, but I don't understand it and I find it irritating. I used to feel differently, (At one time I thought CD was answering the questions) but now I find myself beating my head against the wall (not literally) when I read the discussions with CD and Jim. Swearing and name calling aside-Jim HAS been trying to question CD for a long time. I'd be frustrated, too.

If CD's answers made sense you'd be fair, wouldn't you Jim?

CD- if Jim was going to be nice, would you really answer the questions or not?

Irritated Resident Peacemaker,
VP
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 17:36:18 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: CD
Message:
There are CD's everywhere: Every workplace has one, every classroom. You can find CD's at parties, get-togethers, car pools... you may even have one in your family.

CD's make little disapproving expressions and gestures. They'll never cop to being undermining, but anyone who knows them, knows they're passive-aggressive. They're irritating without saying much, and you can't make them talk; you'll end up feeling ripped off if you try.

Just from guessing, I'd say DLM had a proportionately higher rate of CD's than other categories of people. It's an ideal place to hide. But the thing is, they're really everywhere.

Even if they leave the fold of BM, they usually don't stop being CD's. See, even BM can't make a person into a CD. Some people think that CD's are made at home by their parents. Others think that CD's are born that way. Some people even blame traumatic incidents that happen anytime in life. But the thing is, no one really knows what makes a person into a CD.

The best thing to do with a CD is stay away, because there's no satisfaction to be had. Somehow they always rip you off... kind of like an energy vampire.

I am available for further consultation about CD-types and also cursing.
Rick
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 19:28:10 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Rick
Subject: CD
Message:
Dear Rick,
Expanding you repertiore, eh? Watch out or you'll develop a followning and then we'll be clammering to kiss your feet!
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 19:26:56 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Yes VP
Message:
Veep,

You got it, babe. If Chris talked turkey with me, I'd be nice as pie. I defy anyone here to get him to answer these two questions, DIRECTLY of course:

1) Do you know that you frustrate people here?

and

2) How do you feel about that?

Go ahead and try, even Katherine the Terrible couldn't get him to address this issue. Hey, Mirabai, YOU try, huh? Or how about you, Judex, sweetie? :)
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 20:31:10 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes VP
Message:
Jim:

Alright, I guess if CD is frustrating to nursing mothers as well as you and VP, and possibly others who have yet to speak I'll buy the argument that he's dysfunctional. Now what?

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 20:57:24 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Now what? Intervention!!
Message:
Scott,

It's time to do some ex-premie maintenance. I don't know if you were ever on a crew that went to faltering premies' homes in order to hex them, evil eye them, give them the black spot, break their fevers, check out their little sisters. 'Hi, Mrs. Talkington, is Scott home?'

'You're not from the guru, are you? He doesn't want to talk to you. Can't you see that?'

'Well, I can certainly see that you feel quite strongly about this. But, tell me, is Scott home?'

'I said he's not interested'

'You know, Ma'am, we're having a special event this Sunday. Mahatma Ji is in town and we've also got a copy of the new film, Who is Guru Maharaj Ji, which won a special jury prize at Cannes this year. I can tell right now, it's destined to be a cult classic. Plus, Mahatma Ji will be making an Indian feast for the whole community! Mmmmm, subji!'

'Listen, here, fella, my son got so fucked up with your stupid guru that I don't know if we'll ever get him back, the REAL Scott, I mean.'

'Well, is he meditating?'

'Of course, he's not meditating! He just spends all his time footnoting everything. I raised a perfectly normal freckle-faced kid and you've given me back a compulsive egghead! At first his father and I were worried that you were taking away his mind. Well he seems to have escaped your ashram with not just his own mind but some of the others.'

'That's very funny, Mrs. Talkington, but I'll tell you straight, and you can tell Scott this for me. Knowledge is like a beuatiful soft flower, a drop of mercy, a gentle kiss of grace, sprayed with rose water. BUT, if you stop praticising and COMING TO SATSANG -- I KNOW YOU'RE IN THERE, SCOTT. SCOTT CAN YOU HEAR ME?? SCOTT, I KNOW YOU'RE IN THERE..'

'Get away from here, right now! Stop! Let me close this door!

'TEN TONS OF ROTTING VEGETABLES, SCOTT!! YOU HEAR ME? REMEMBER, SCOTT, YOU KNOW WHAT'S TRUE. YOU KNOW WHO REALLY LOVES YOU. TEN TONS, SCOTT. IT AIN'T PRETTY!... Hey, she slammed the door! Some people, eh?'

'Yeah, well that's the mind for you.'

Chris, it's your turn. We're coming to get you. Ted Patrick's out of jail and fully commissioned. Tell me, what cheap motel would you like to hole up in for the next few days? We've even got Bill Gates' consent to go over some of your training as a Certified Microsoft Whachamicallit if need be. Hang on, Chris buddy, we're coming!!
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:57:01 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Now what? Intervention!!
Message:
Jim, this time I spilled a milkshake on myself laughing. Thanks for that, very well done.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 11:08:04 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks
Message:
Jim:

I wanted to express my appreciation for the effort and skill that went into putting this post together. The style reminds me of Annie Dillard. I should point out, however, that my mother's name is not Mrs. Talkington. That's my grandmother. As for the rest, I'm really working on overcoming my compulsive rationality. It has been a source of consternation for Mom, a CS Practitioner, for a long time. Did you know, I'm singing Scottish lullabies to myself?

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:56:00 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Thanks
Message:
You know Scott, you have a very generous nature and you're somebody I'm very happy to have met in cyberspace.

You are not alone in having compulsions. I have to make effort not to list, in my head, the states in declining order of population when I get into the shower. It's just automatic. And sometimes when I run, I list the electoral college results from all the presidential elections since 1920. Weird? I'm afraid so.

By the way, have you read anything by David Sedaris (I am NOT name dropping here)? His book 'Naked' has some really funny sections about being obsessive/compulsive. Actually, all of his stuff is pretty funny. His first book was 'Barrel Fever' and I think he has just coming out with a third book. He has the kind of humor that makes you laugh out loud and then feel like you really shouldn't be laughing at what he is saying. I saw him speak Friday night and he did some readings from a work in progress and it was a great show.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:16:26 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Compulsiveness
Message:
Hey, JW

I check locks. I always check to make sure that the doors are locked in the cars and at home. It has to do with the high crime rate where I live, but also one of my parents always did it (and had us do it, too). It's not a huge deal nor does it interfere with my life (I don't go home in the middle of the day to check to see if the doors are locked, for example) and I do it most of the time without even realizing that I am doing it. I just realized how much I had been doing it lately. I am making an effort to relax and not check the locks as much.

Your compulsions are a lot more exciting, I have to admit.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:46:48 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Compulsiveness
Message:
VP,

I don't know why that stuff goes through my head, maybe it's from my Catholic school education and all the things we needed to memorize. But I often decide to think about something else, and I do, instead. To tell you the truth, I think it happens because it's comforting. When I go into the warm water of a shower, or begin to relax doing a long run, I think it's a method to crowd out other thoughts and just relax. In fact, I never considered them 'compulsive thoughts' until I mentioned them to someone and they said that's what they are.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 01:56:59 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Compulsiveness
Message:
Hi JW. Same boat. I too have a lot of compulsive thoughts that I find comforting. Things like if I see a highway sign with two highway numbers on it, I automatically divide one by the other. And you're right, it basically functions to create an empty space, but one that is comfortable and familiar.

My limited understanding of autism is that many people suffering from it find the world so frightening that they create a life composed entirely of compulsive, familiar, comforting routines. Obviously, when taken that far it stifles your life, but for creating small comfort zones it's certainly less harmful than a guru.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 14:58:11 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Thanks
Message:
As for the rest, I'm really working on overcoming my compulsive rationality.

Scott,

I wasn't sure to take you seriously 'til I read JW's reply and realized that I should. Apparently, you're both nuts. No, seriously, Scott, there's nothing too rational about you. Is there even such a state? Can a window be too clear?

No, I was just having some fun at your academicity (?). Hey, if you're walking the walk that works in those hallways, all power to you. I, too, think you're really a neat guy and also, a kind of all-round guy. I couldn't begin to enumerate the many insights I've picked up from your posts. Plus I've heard a lot of names I've never heard before. That's got to count for something. (joke!)

I kid you just out of fondness.... or at least within a greater context of fondness.... or at least with a view to fondness. Let me say this, there, at minimum, remembrances of fondness. Or the fondness hypothesis is not yet vanquished. There IS a fondness quotient...

Hey, you want to go hunting?
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:53:20 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Now what? Intervention!!
Message:
On second thought, what's so funny about your post is what you describe is not too far off from things that I actually saw happen. l;kjfsda;lkjsafdl;kjfsadlkj;fdsal;kjfdsa;lksajfd;lkjsafd
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:47:51 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh, I see now.
Message:
Jim:

Never mind that the 'exotic' supposition I asked you to consider has helped experts and staff officers in the US Department of Defense (who not only speak English, but the same command/control version of English) approach consensus on a number of vital issues that had been bones of contention for years. Let's suppose that:

How about this? Suppose you have a person who, once captured as a young man by a 70s cult leader, refuses to back up and reconsider the terms of entailment. Thus, he never allows himself to consider any evidence contadicting his master's supremecy. Instead, he talks without reason and, on at least one occasion, openly admits that reason to him is hogwash in matters of the heart. Still, he attends a DISCUSSION group focused on the very matter he will not allow himself to really consider, let alone openly discuss. Worse, he even ask questions as if to goad others into thinking that he's there to discuss when really he's just there to show off his chains.

Why is he there to show off his chains? Perhaps he isn't getting kudos for them from his peers? So, why would he go to a group that has open disrespect for them? Indeed, this does not sound rational. I can see why you're so upset.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:31:28 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: to CD
Message:
I think Jim is upset because he, also, is behaving irrationally.

Dr J. Judex (before I was disbarred)

PS how can you guys discuss CD like an object? CD, you are a valuable human being, whether others like what you say or do or not. You are being instrumental in their own self-healing, I am sure, this is more about them than you.

You should concern yourself with you. It's true, why do you keep wanting others to hurt you? Is this the only way you get validation as a human being? Surely underneath, this game is not really all that much fun, is it? Why don't you think about some of the things said here and try to understand that the way you are doing things here is pretty self-destructive. Do you really want to have abuse heaped on you all the time? Surely you deserve better.

Regards
Judex (who is also guilty of having abused you - and you said you would be back - and you stuck up for yourself with Brian - I remember).
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:48:12 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: to CD and Judex
Message:
Judex,

I hope you didn't think I was discussing CD like he is an object. I do not think that at all. In fact I like him as a person. I had a little falling out with him (my fault) and now I do not feel that I can email him anymore, but that doesn't mean that I don't like him. I was simply pointing out one thing that he does that irritates me.

You know what I do that irritates me? I tell lousy jokes that are in bad taste like the one about Danny above. So we all do things that are irritating.

Don't feel too badly about irritating me, CD. Lots of people do. Including myself sometimes. Just answer some questions and all is forgiven!

Take care, both of you,
VP
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 01:58:49 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Judex, honey
Message:
I think Jim is upset because he, also, is behaving irrationally.

Hey, girlfriend, them's fighting words. Whaat are you talking about? Back it up or give it up, eh?

As for treating Chris like an object, what object did you have in mind?
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:34:59 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Judex, honey
Message:
It's all in the subconscious, honey.
You really would have to go to a psych doctor to have a look at it under the bright lights.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 11:33:28 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Judex, honey
Message:
It's all in the subconscious, honey.

Yes, well Judex, you subconciously stole my car last week and I want it back. If I don't see it here by 4:00 this afternoon I'm calling the cops. Or maybe my own psychologist. He'll fix you good. I jsut haven't decided yet. I'm going to see himthis aft at 2:00 and he's going to let me know.
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