Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 13

From: Jun 18, 1998

To: Jun 25, 1998

Page: 3 Of: 5



possibly remembered -:- maharaj ji must also realize -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 21:36:16 (EST)
__Judex -:- to : possibly remembered -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 02:18:14 (EST)
____Iola -:- MJs THREATS -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:13:31 (EST)
______Judex -:- MJs THREATS -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:46:29 (EST)
________Katie -:- MJs THREATS -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:55:32 (EST)
______Rick -:- MJs THREATS -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 11:44:29 (EST)
________THREATENED -:- MJs THREATS -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:36:24 (EST)
__________Jim -:- MJs THREATS -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:52:51 (EST)
____________THREATENED -:- MJs THREATS -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:44:04 (EST)
______________Indie Yaweh -:- MJs THREATS -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:51:00 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- reason why bad things happen -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 18:08:51 (EST)
__________JW -:- reason why bad things happen -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 18:12:49 (EST)
____________Judex -:- why people become premies -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:09:28 (EST)
__________Judex -:- reason why bad things happen -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:04:13 (EST)
__________Jim -:- speak for yourself, JM -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:01:44 (EST)
________VP -:- I'm with you, Rick -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 20:14:02 (EST)

Jim -:- M's Infinity Mumbo Jumbo -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 17:50:07 (EST)
__CD -:- Infinity is OK -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 18:27:26 (EST)
____Jim -:- Yeah, but it's not God -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 18:36:10 (EST)
______Sir David -:- Yeah, but it's not God -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 20:56:02 (EST)
________Judex -:- fragment on infinity -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 02:24:25 (EST)
__________Finite Sir David -:- fragment on infinity -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 07:38:16 (EST)
____________Judex -:- fragment on infinity -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 08:59:50 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- curved lines -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 10:58:02 (EST)
________________Sir David -:- curved lines -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:12:01 (EST)
__________________Judex -:- curved lines -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:59:33 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Infinity is OK -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:50:35 (EST)
____SF -:- To CD - Wembley Info, please? -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:57:23 (EST)
______Indie Yaweh -:- CD needs shock treatments -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 02:49:41 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- CD needs shock treatments -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:39:38 (EST)
__________eb to Scott T. -:- Rita Higgins -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:09:53 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- Rita Higgins -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:19:30 (EST)
______________John -:- Rita Higgins -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:02:50 (EST)
________________Scott T. -:- Rita Higgins -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:19:08 (EST)
__________________John -:- Rita Higgins -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:42:10 (EST)
____________________Scott T. -:- Rita Higgins -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:19:42 (EST)
____bill burke -:- cd and jimmie -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 04:11:37 (EST)

Deights -:- Sad but.............. -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 17:24:44 (EST)
__Peter -:- Sad but beautiful -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 17:55:19 (EST)
__Jim -:- Sad but.............. -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 18:08:11 (EST)
____Passing thru -:- Sad but.............. -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 19:19:55 (EST)
______jethro -:- Sad but.............. -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 19:57:14 (EST)
________passing thru -:- Sad but.............. -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:40:32 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- I call it -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 00:06:58 (EST)
____________VP -:- Money for nothing... -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:08:54 (EST)
____________red heart -:- he works damn hard -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:27:02 (EST)
______________Indie Yaweh -:- he works damn hard -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 14:02:47 (EST)
______________Paul -:- he works damn hard -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:08:08 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- A comparison -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 21:18:26 (EST)
__________Jethro -:- Sad but.............. -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:37:04 (EST)
____Iola -:- Sad but.............. -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:45:09 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- Rawat: irresponsible idiot! -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 18:42:34 (EST)
__Judex -:- Sad but.............. -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:59:49 (EST)
__eb -:- Focus on Gratitude -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 02:00:38 (EST)
____Judex -:- Focus on Gratitude -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 02:08:01 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Focus on Gratitude -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 21:54:52 (EST)
________eb -:- Your Story and Mine -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:23:27 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- Your Story and Mine -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 17:49:13 (EST)

eb -:- Darshan Dreams -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 15:00:39 (EST)
__Jim -:- Darshan Dreams -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 16:51:21 (EST)
__jethro -:- Darshan Dreams -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 19:49:57 (EST)
__Katie -:- Darshan Dreams -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 22:14:44 (EST)
____eb -:- WWF -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:35:43 (EST)
__VP -:- Darshan Dreams -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 22:19:08 (EST)
__Peter -:- Darshan Dreams -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 22:54:36 (EST)
____VP -:- White=chastity -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:19:45 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Darshan Dreams -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:59:40 (EST)
__JW -:- Darshan Dreams -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:37:03 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Darshan Dreams -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 00:09:26 (EST)
____eb to all -:- Thanks! -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 00:26:47 (EST)
______Judex -:- Thanks! -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:41:56 (EST)
________judex -:- more on dreams -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:46:51 (EST)
__________eb -:- Interpreting the dream -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:02:35 (EST)
____________Mark -:- Interpreting the dream -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:19:41 (EST)
______________eb -:- For Research Purposes Only -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:58:04 (EST)
________________Katie -:- Fashion tips -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 08:58:40 (EST)
______________Jim -:- My favorite new age guy -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:34:35 (EST)

Mickey the Pharisee -:- I'm Back -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 12:54:00 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- I'm Back -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 13:22:40 (EST)
____JW -:- LOTU Video -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 14:16:25 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- LOTU Video... Katie -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 16:51:02 (EST)
________Katie -:- LOTU Video... Katie -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 18:45:56 (EST)
__Robyn -:- I'm Back -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 08:43:19 (EST)

Junior Mahatma Ji -:- Where is everybody? -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 08:38:18 (EST)
__Brian -:- Where is everybody? -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 08:48:23 (EST)
____red heels -:- that's b.s., brian -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:06:41 (EST)
______Katie -:- not completely -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:21:56 (EST)
________red heels -:- not completely -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:30:55 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- not completely -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:45:03 (EST)
____________red heels -:- i respect them -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 10:05:00 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- i respect them -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 10:09:43 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Slumming, are we? -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 13:28:07 (EST)
________________red heels -:- Slumming, are we? -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 13:58:09 (EST)
______________Brian -:- i respect them -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 17:39:32 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Touche, Brian! -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 18:12:45 (EST)
____________Jim -:- brilliant, Scott -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 13:19:58 (EST)
______________NDYW -:- ex-tracting payment -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:47:59 (EST)
________________Jim -:- ex-tracting payment -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:00:32 (EST)
______PaulR -:- that's b.s., brian -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 17:12:14 (EST)
__seymour -:- Where is everybody? -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 10:46:51 (EST)
__JW -:- Bill Patterson, et al. -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 14:27:55 (EST)
____Red Foley -:- How about Arthur Brigham? -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 16:52:46 (EST)
______JW -:- How about Arthur Brigham? -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:39:43 (EST)
________Red Foley -:- Arthur=Mahatma Pompoussasanand -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 00:03:06 (EST)
________burke -:- Arthur Brigham? -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 04:23:07 (EST)
__________Anon -:- Arthur Brigham? -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 07:04:16 (EST)
__________JW -:- Arthur Brigham? -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:42:58 (EST)
____________Iola -:- Elliot Brye? -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:51:03 (EST)

Judex -:- Premies -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 06:53:47 (EST)
__Judex -:- Ignore the above post -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 07:27:29 (EST)
____Sir David -:- Ignore the above post too late -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 07:56:48 (EST)
______Jim -:- No way, David -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 13:39:54 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Too late -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:42:12 (EST)
____Stephen Harris -:- Ignore the above post -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 17:22:10 (EST)
______Judex -:- to Stephen -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:17:58 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Premies -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 07:42:18 (EST)
____Judex -:- Premies -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 08:03:58 (EST)
__Rick -:- Don't worry -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 08:04:46 (EST)
____Judex -:- Don't worry -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 08:08:02 (EST)
______Katie -:- Don't worry -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:11:28 (EST)
____Katie -:- Rick the mensch -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:16:18 (EST)
______Rick -:- Jack Nicholson -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 12:40:12 (EST)
________VP -:- Jack Nicholson-off topic -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:17:00 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Rick the mensch -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:29:18 (EST)
__Brian -:- Premies -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 08:41:37 (EST)
____red heels -:- an obvious idiot -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:39:02 (EST)
______red heels -:- more fun than a sandbox -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:59:12 (EST)
________possibly remembered -:- more fun than a sandbox -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:34:19 (EST)
____Judex -:- Premies -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:22:06 (EST)

red heels -:- this illuminating website -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 01:01:16 (EST)
__Rick -:- this illuminating website -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 01:09:29 (EST)
____x -:- this illuminating website -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 01:38:24 (EST)
______red heels -:- this illuminating website -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:52:14 (EST)
________VP -:- message=danger -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:28:22 (EST)
____red heels -:- this illuminating website -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:43:04 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- fun -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 10:04:26 (EST)
______Rick -:- this illuminating website -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 12:50:09 (EST)
__Sir David -:- this illuminating website -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 04:33:21 (EST)
____red heels -:- this illuminating website -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:55:24 (EST)
______Sir David -:- this illuminating website -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 12:25:12 (EST)
________red heels -:- this illuminating website -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 14:04:45 (EST)
________Jim -:- Hey! Is this satsang?? -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 14:10:41 (EST)
__________eb -:- I'm having a memory -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 14:48:16 (EST)
__________red heels -:- Hey! Is this satsang?? -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 15:25:04 (EST)
____________red heels -:- now i've gone and done it -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 16:04:17 (EST)
______________Mr. Xtbmish -:- now i've gone and done it -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 16:50:59 (EST)
__________Sir David -:- Hey! Is this satsang?? -:- Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 20:37:24 (EST)
________VP -:- PVC -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:38:48 (EST)
__________Judex -:- PVC -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 02:36:58 (EST)
____________Sir David -:- In the depths of depravity -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 07:22:26 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Plumbing the depths -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 08:20:37 (EST)
________________Judex -:- Plumbing the depths -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:25:52 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- Plumbing the depths -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:38:37 (EST)
____________________Judex -:- Plumbing the depths -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:48:16 (EST)
______________________Judex -:- sex, pegs, pvc - to David -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:56:40 (EST)
______________________Sir David -:- You could be a PAL -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 10:09:00 (EST)
________________________judex -:- Sleep -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 10:16:50 (EST)
________________________Katie -:- to Sir D, Judex, Bill Cooper -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 10:17:41 (EST)
__________________________Judex -:- to Sir D, Judex, Bill Cooper -:- Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 10:23:18 (EST)


Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 21:36:16 (EST)
From: possibly remembered
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: maharaj ji must also realize
Message:
gmj was a very touchy subject to me and my familyso excuse me if i don't respond to all feedback. viewersshould take lack of response in stride and realize the pain of this experience is not yet over. this is just a short thread that may halp some peoplecause the thought that (mahara ji is not actually one of my parents) finally delivered me from the fear instilled previous and during the 'iniation session' (if anyone else out there remembers a similar dilema). in other words no matter how great a lordly ego he hasit was not his seed that started my existence.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 02:18:14 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: possibly remembered
Subject: to : possibly remembered
Message:
Dear pr:

I wish you well in keeping yourself strong. Maybe nothing happened during the initiation except you were shown some meditation techniques. Personally I agree there is nothing to be afraid of. I don't mind you not responding to me and I understand it can be a very painful experience. Even Maharaji made no threats to anyone, as far as I am concerned, about leaving him as a devotee. I hope you share again with us, and stay in touch if you feel like it.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:13:31 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: MJs THREATS
Message:
What was the threat about revealing the techniques. I printed out everything on this site and gave it to my daughter and friend's mother to read.

The premie I mentioned this to was mortified but did not criticize me. She did admit that MJs statements sometimes evoke fear.

I told her that I wanted my daughter to make a completely informed choice.

What is the Karma for this sin? Does anyone remember.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:46:29 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: MJs THREATS
Message:
When I was given knowledge 18 months ago there was no karma mentioned, no threat made about consequences of breaking vows.

If you want some, I'm sure you can find some. Otherwise just accept that you have done nothing wrong and there is no punishment.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:55:32 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: MJs THREATS
Message:
I think what Iola was talking about is that there used to be a lot of very specific threats circulating about things like not practicing knowledge, revealing the techniques, etc. For example, Rick was shown the techniques by some 'fringe' premies, and when he talked to the mahatma about it she told him this gave him 25 lifetimes of bad karma (this is how I recall the story, anyway.) There also was a story that if you quit practicing knowledge, your mind would become a million times stronger than if you had never received knowledge at all (MIND = bad). I'm not sure these all originated with MJ, but he did definitely say the thing about the rotten vegies (also the train going nowhere, and the shark metaphor, which John K has described).

Anyway, IMHO, all these threats are a bunch of crap designed to keep premies from leaving Maharaji. However, when I left Knowledge, I did so with the real fear that I was going to go crazy or go to hell. I was so miserable that I just didn't care anymore.

Regards,
Katie

Haven't gone crazy yet, 1998
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 11:44:29 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: MJs THREATS
Message:
Dear Iola,
In 1976, before I received knowledge, I was shown the techniques by a renegade premie. A concerned premie took me to BM's mansion in Malibu to talk to a woman initiator (Suzi Bai?). This initiator told me that the karma for accepting the techniques, from someone other than one of BM's representatives, is 25 reincarnated lifetimes of pain, misery and untold suffering. I was mortified.

What an enormous, overcooked crock of shit . I don't mean the threat was a crock of shit; I mean Guru Maharaji is a crock of shit. His cult, his manipulative and deceptive programming, his lies, his arrogance... they are all ugly.

Maharaji is a joke. His knowledge is a joke. His threats are a joke. I know for a fact that BM was hit with the ugly stick, big time.... within inside.

Life has many misfortunes. They happen to everyone, including premies; for example, maharaji's wife had brain surgery. Listen, how much worse can it get, okay? Brain surgery is it... that's about the worse that can happen to you, and it happened to the BM's wife, who is a good little Stepford Wife, and a good little Stepford premie. Brain surgery can happen to anyone, and Gurus and New Agers alike rattle on about why these things happen, but they don't really know. No guru, scientist, philosopher, alchemist, or witch doctor can tell you why bad things happen.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:36:24 (EST)
From: THREATENED
Email: None
To: All
Subject: MJs THREATS
Message:
I don't think that GM sanctioned threats made against premies ever. But I know that he has never spoken against these threats, which he has had an ongoing responsibility to do.

After Bob Mischler's Plane Accident (or whatever) Several premies who were known associates of Mischler, were contacted and informed that Mischler's death was an example of GM's divine lila. The implication that it could be made to happen to others was clearly implied, and reinforced by the memory of the near fatal attack on the newspaper reporter who had criticised GM (Detroit Free Press.)
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:52:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: THREATENED
Subject: MJs THREATS
Message:
After Bob Mischler's Plane Accident (or whatever) Several premies who were known associates of Mischler, were contacted and informed that Mischler's death was an example of GM's divine lila.

Hi Mr. T.,

Hey what do your kids call you? Anyway, can you tell us more about this? Who did the threatening, who got the calls and how do you know? Better answer this or else...
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:44:04 (EST)
From: THREATENED
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: MJs THREATS
Message:
You are doing the threatening
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:51:00 (EST)
From: Indie Yaweh
Email: None
To: THREATENED
Subject: MJs THREATS
Message:
May a thousand hindi demons invade your mind. May your clothes fall of in church. May your genitals shrivel even in summer. May you forever more kiss the lotus ass of the Fat Fraud. May you someday reach the understanding of an eight year old. Blessings.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 18:08:51 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: reason why bad things happen
Message:
Brain surgery can happen to anyone, and Gurus and New Agers alike rattle on about why these things happen, but they don't really know. No guru, scientist, philosopher, alchemist, or witch doctor can tell you why bad things happen.

'Bad' things are bad because we call them 'bad', because they're
painful, because they struck imagination, because because because becauses.

Living creatures are fragile, and more complicated they get, more fragile they get. And depending on circumstances, they decay, from one end, or from the other end.
There is no need of gurus or alchemist to understand this.
I mean these guys make a mess out of simple facts they don't want to face.
They look somewhere else because they don't want to face reality, and we are more or less like that too, that's why we still have that kind of strange reasonings. Each one of us has good reason to do so obviously.
We are fragile, we are ageing, we will die. We don't have as much love as we'd like to have, we don't understand everything we'd like to understand, we are not as intelligent as we'd like to be.

The guru is a wrong answer.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 18:12:49 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: reason why bad things happen
Message:
Jean-Michel,

Very well said. I think it's just that feeling of fragility, the desire to avoid reality, in people on which BM capitalizes.

JW
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:09:28 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: why people become premies
Message:
Spot on, especially about someone very dear to me, who is a truly kind, gentle person in their heart. I don't see this person is like any of the qualities people here say about premies. What you say is much closer to the truth. much much much closer.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:04:13 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: reason why bad things happen
Message:
Dear Jean-Michel

there's such an existential ache in your words. very moving.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:01:44 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: speak for yourself, JM
Message:
we are not as intelligent as we'd like to be.

Personally, I find this extremely insulting. Do you have any idea what it's like to be me? Well I do! And that's just a start.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 20:14:02 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: I'm with you, Rick
Message:
Rick,
I'll be living for 25 lifetimes right along side of you, pal. You know what? It is a crock. Nice post. I agree with you 100%.
M weilds his power over others to hurt and scare them into giving him money.

My oldest child and I have a saying/philosophy that we got from a book:

'Always use your power for good, never for evil'

I think we should let Rawat in on this little secret.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 17:50:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: M's Infinity Mumbo Jumbo
Message:
[Below, Red Heels said this:

i don't believe the fact that Maharaji and the Knowledge are one is something that can be successfully inspected on an intellectual level, the Knowledge being infinite and the intellect being finite.

CD has also graced us with this 'infinity' hocus pocus. Well, brothers and sisters, from that same 1974 Q&A session I posted the other day, the one where Maharaji explained that he knew from his EXPERIENCE that seeds are dead and that plants then spring to life from death itself, the same one where he explained that one must try to meditate 24 hours a day until one is merged in the meditation, the one where he explained the importance of the ashram, the one where he explained tht the Millenium program was an absolute success, here now, without further ado, is the Lord of the Universe on infinity. (I've highlighted my favorite part)]:

A person who is very close to me is a scientist type, a 'logical thinker'. And he believes that all this Knowledge and meditation and all this stuff is more or less a fairy tale and a product of hypnosis, because it can't be written down in mathematical equations and proved out. Do you have any advice to me to help open him any?

Unfortunately, he is not a very good scientist.

I will agree to that.

He is not a very good scientist. Becuase if he is a really good scientist, then he has to understand that you cannot write an equation for infinity. If he knows infinity, can he write an equation for it? That's one of the things in math, a very practical thing. Tell him to write an equation for infinity. He won't be ble to write it. Becuase there IS no equation for infinity. And this, that thing, you know, which is COMPLETE infinity, which is like infinity ITSELF, how can you even write it down? So that is it.

The mathematics of infinity, what I'm into, cannot be expressed and cannot be understood. And mathematicians have brought it to the point where there is a lot of confusion because they can't comprehend it. And it's there ...

It is somewhere.

It isn't deep enough.

But see, the thing is, there is one point where you cannot go on anymore. And that is the exact same point which cannot be written on a blackboard. It will not fit into any blackboard; it will not fit in the series of one to zero. You see? It will just not fit into that series. Because see, there is a number below zero. And nobody can write it down. There is a number. And that number, that very number ...

See, it;s like, in the air there is something that cannot be seen but can be written down. In the same way, there is a number, after all the numbers have finished and before all the numbers start. And that very number is the very infinite number. And it cannot be written down on the blackboard. Because a human mind cannot reach to the comprehension of that equation.

But there IS something like that. And that thing is for us to know.

Who are we to try to put in on a blackboard? Even Lord Krishna [winner of 1134 B.C. Nobel Prize for Physics -ed.] says that it's unspeakable. You cannot speak that Word. Even the Bible, when it's describing [aw shit, do I have to type all this junk? Okay, but you owe me bigtime - ed.] about the Word, it just says this much: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God.' Just, you know, it's in those words. That's all. Can't even write that Word down, what it is. It's just by saying there is a figure. What is the figure? They cannot write it down. There was a sum of money transferred. What was the sum of money? They cannot write it down.

And the Word. Was it that Word? He did not write it down, because it dannot be written down. But it WAS there; it IS there. But the thing is, when we say, 'no-thing,' whe we say 'nothing' that means no thing. If you put a dash between 'no' and 'thing' it proves there IS something which we do not know about. And that thing, because we do not KNOW about it, we cannot even write it down.

For an Indian person who does not know how to say 'professional,' that does not mean the word doesn't exist just because he cannot speak it. The word exists. He cannot speak it because he does not know it. And a person who KNOWS this Knowledge, for HIM it EXISTS. But it does not exist if you want to put it on a blackboard. Because where can you start it from? Because infinity does not have a beginning and does not have an end. And thus, to START it from four, zero, one, two -- you CAN'T. And to start it with the mark, just like that (makes infinity sign), is the answer and the equation and the beginning and the end of itself. So where will you start it from?

Where will we end? Forget it, you know, it's like, that's why it cannot be written down. Otherwise if there could ahve been something like that, we probably could have written the equation down. And what really, for man, what infinity is, is 'G' plus 'M' is equal to infinity. When God and man become ONE, that's infinite. Because man is finite and God is infinite. When finite is completely MERGED into something that is infinite, it's equal to infinite. Yes?
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 18:27:26 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Infinity is OK
Message:
Music can produce great joy.
Curious that just a bunch of physical vibrations has that power.
We can analyze the phenomenon but we will find that only the actual experience has the ultimate meaning.
Our finite logic must do battle in an infinite reality.
The Catholic church never did like the number PI.
What is the value of that number by the way?

When we think we know it all, that 'understanding' becomes the filter through which we limit the experience of what exists.
Remember Platos allegory of the cave?

The mystery of infinity exists inside of each atom of all of us just as sure as this earth exists in the middle of an infinite space that we will never comprehend through logic.
And where does that conciousness dwell that is each of us perceiving this physical existence.

We are fortunate that when we can become quiet and simply experience what is, the result is pleasant joy and a simple understanding.
A simple wonder of our life in the midst of endless time that is our gift.

CD
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 18:36:10 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Yeah, but it's not God
Message:
Chris,

you've included questions in your post. The question, as you likely remember, is a conversational device people use to trigger responses from one another. Is that what you're looking for? Are you ready for a conversation? If not, don't you think it's abundantly rude for you to ask people questions? Please, answer this last one at least. Do you or don't you tihnk it's rude to ask people questions but avoid answer theirs?
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 20:56:02 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jim
Subject: Yeah, but it's not God
Message:
Interesting coincidence but this evening my 6 year old daughter told me that numbers go on forever. Scott and I had a discusion about infinity on the forum a few weeks ago. I believe that there is no such thing as infinity. True, you can have an ever growing and larger series of numbers but they will just go on endlesslessly. They are limitless but not actually infinite.

I like these mind bending propositions. Actually Chris, space is not infinite. It is expanding but it isn't infinite. Perhaps God is the same.

Does anyone understand what I mean by saying that infinity cannot exist. Even as a mathematical model. Say you can count up to a billion billion. And then you put that to the power of a billion billion. It's still a limited number. So you could keep on putting the answer to the power of itself, for a billion years and you would still only have a limited number. It would be a nothingness compared to the 'concept' of infinity.

People talk about God as being infinite. How do they know He's/She's infinite? More likely that God is expanding or growing in awarness. And now to bed.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 02:24:25 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: fragment on infinity
Message:
Say you can count up to a billion billion. And then you put that to the power of a billion billion. It's still a limited number.

Yes in another way of looking at it the only way that concept could include infinity is by including the factor of time. If you said that endless series of numbers were already there, then they would be infinite (and yet not infinite). I mean, you have to take out the 'fixed time' factor to get near infinity. That is how I see it. You are defining it by using the idea that there is a 'time' when one number comes after another.

btw..and so to bed... to sleep perchance to dream?
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 07:38:16 (EST)
From: Finite Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Judex
Subject: fragment on infinity
Message:
Nope. How can you get 'near' to infinity? That was my point. You simply can't get near to infinity, no matter how big. A number, by its very nature, is a finite thing. You cannot have an infinite number. I mean, if you could sit for all eternity writing a number and adding zeros onto the end, the number would always be ten times smaller than the next zero you put on. So you could spend all eternity just adding zeros and you would never reach an end to it. A pretty boring way to spend eternity though. You'd get writers cramp after a few millenia,too.

And if you could sit and do this for a billion ages of the universe, you still wouldn't 'get near' to infinity. You'd be as far away from it as you ever were. This is the problem though, our minds cannot hardly grasp the notion of infinity. But it's interesting to try even though, I believe, it doesn't exist.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 08:59:50 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Finite Sir David
Subject: fragment on infinity
Message:
yes while walking the dog i came to the same conclusion; it's because numbers are material concepts.

Anything that is conceptual has to be finite, because it has a structure which comes from somewhere and therefore is limited.

I suppose I was just trying to imagine a space where everything that is already existed and because there was no limit to everything that is, it was all infinite.

this is probably all rubbish but fun. I mean what else is there to do with finity?
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 10:58:02 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: curved lines
Message:
Judex and David:

I agree with everything you've said. In a definition for a class of infinities, such as 'all curved lines in space' (Bertrand Russell, I think) the critical term is 'all.' It basically emphasizes that there is no such thing as 'all' in the sense that they can be exhaustively enumerated, and then have done with it. The 'classes of infinities' idea also had to do with the concept that even though some things are infinite (according to an idiosyncratic definition) they can still be placed in one-to-one correspondence with something else. Curved lines in space are too unruly to be able to do that. However, if you drop the business of juxtaposing 'all' with 'limitless time,' or the other 'limitless condition' that everything exists instantaneously, the logical conundrum that seems to require 'infinity' is not so persuasive.

But, have you noticed that CD isn't part of this discussion? I don't think we are convincing him, and I think the next time he wants to use infinity as a free ticket to something he'll just do so. Do you get that impression?

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:12:01 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Stuio57@btinternet.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: curved lines
Message:
Well I agree Scot, even though I don't fully understand what you wrote! You lost me a bit after the curved lines.

CD is CD. Perhaps he's working now but I'm sure he'll check in later.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 23:59:33 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: curved lines
Message:
Yes okay but why do we have to drop the other business of juxtaposing everything being instantaneous?

maybe that's not quite it - actually I was stealing an idea I read (plagiarizing i think they say in those lofty halls) - which is that time is a dimension also.

So imagining yourself to be outside of time, then everything intime is instantaneous and exists simultaneously.

However beyond that is infinity. Because infinity contains no time. It just is.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:50:35 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Infinity is OK
Message:
CD:

The Catholic church never did like the number PI. What is the value of that number by the way?

Who really cares. The 'value' is a relative one anyway. It's just a ratio of a unit radius to a circumference. Unwrap a circle of unit radius and you have a ruler the length of two pi. Fold it once and voila! But you're right, there is infinite wonder in doing everything the hard way.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:57:23 (EST)
From: SF
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: To CD - Wembley Info, please?
Message:
Hello CD,

Sorry to butt in here but you're just the man to help me out. I've been talking to a premie(ish) friend of mine who, like yourself, is just back from the Wembley programme. He didn't spill the beans as much as I would have liked but he still has a few slivers of integrity left and admits to having extremely mixed feelings about some of the things going on there. He even told me some of his misgivings about the event and I thought maybe you'd like to fill us in on a few of the details of what's happening.

Firstly, did you hear BM telling the faithful that he 'has enemies'? Yes, my friend swears BM said this. Enemies who are still 'ticked off' about decisions he made long ago? Decisions he says were 'excellent'? Of course the BM didn't go into details but claimed we are all of no consequence because he still has more friends than enemies! Chris, old chap, do you really think this can be construed as properly addressing our legitimate concerns? Even my old friend, (we were aspirants together and got K within 3 weeks of each other back in 77) thinks this is yet another feeble evasion masquerading, albeit badly, as jocular wisdom.

And what about those blatantly devotional videos? Lingering slow-motion shots of his nibs waddling along a pristine beach to new age music whilst softly breathing out his bland and meaningless sub-juvenile poetry as if it were the most astounding oracular revelation ever to grace the human ear! This was apparently put on after BM's satsang; presumably to keep the mugs in their seats while the BM made a clean getaway in the merc. My friend says he would have slipped away himself if he could have done so without disturbing a whole row of enraptured 70's throwbacks. I know how he feels. When the devotional trip started creeping in again about 3 years ago it was the final straw for me and I discovered knowledge worked better without submitting one's love to someone whose hypocrasy rendered him so obviously unworthy. My friend said this video reminded him of the poetry of the Vogon space-ship captain from the Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I'm sure British readers will understand this reference and since you seem to be a regular visitor to our shores perhaps you will too.

Also, CD, don't you think it's kind of sad that BM is now reduced to using his satsang to plug the over-priced trinkets in the concession stalls which, I am reliably informed, fill almost the entire length of each lobby? BM was heard to sing the glory of a magazine called Contact which I'm told was selling for £7. My friend said it wasn't nearly as thick or well produced as an opera programme from Covent Garden costing considerably less. And I'm told there was a daily newsheet on sale consisting of only one sheet of paper which sold for a pound!!! That must be all of 98 pence pure profit! Copious videos were on sale at every stand, some lasting 4 minutes and costing £8. What next? Is he booked on Opra? Personally, I suspect even her show might be too up-market for him. It sounds like he'd be more suitable for the 'Devotion Hour' on the Home Shopping Network.

I believe BM claimed there were 8,200 people at Wembley, with 1,200 of them aspirants. But my friend says a very large percentage of those present were foreigners and there were still plenty of empty seats. I remember in 77/8 that same hall was bursting at the seams just with us Brits and a few Euro-Honchos.

While I'm on the subject of videos: didn't the BM recount the old story of the cow dung laddoos from Delhi because, by his own admission, he hadn't told it for a while and it would be good to 'get it for the videos?'

Well, CD, I'd really love it if you would provide us with some detailed comment on these points. But why haven't you mentioned them already? We'd really like to know what you thought of all these goings on. I'm sure there's quite a few things I've forgotten but they may come back to me. In any case, I'll be talking to my freind again before too long. And next time I won't be relying on him for my information. There's a one day programme in Brighton in August and I'm considering going with him to see this drivel with my own eyes. So, if you don't report it, maybe I will. What the hell, I'd probably report it anyway. I've read a lot of your posts and found nothing but vacuous evasion but hey, feel free to prove me wrong.

S.F.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 02:49:41 (EST)
From: Indie Yaweh
Email: None
To: All
Subject: CD needs shock treatments
Message:
I'm only a minor deity, but this CD character is definitely bonkers. There is something wrong with his brain, or at least his mind. The way he jumps around and make these tenuous connections is symptomatic of mental problems. I think we can attribute these qualities to his association with the Lord of the Universe. Indeed, these are the fruits of devotion.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:39:38 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Indie Yaweh
Subject: CD needs shock treatments
Message:
Indie:

I was not aware that Joe was a fruitarian. What do you mean 'no offense?'

-Scott
Played the imaginary flute in Pacific Palisades with Rita Higgins (aka RH)
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:09:53 (EST)
From: eb to Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Rita Higgins
Message:
Hi Scott,

Have you found Rita yet?

eb
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:19:30 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: eb to Scott T.
Subject: Rita Higgins
Message:
eb:

No, I haven't found Rita. It briefly occured to me that red heels might be her, just because of the coincidence of initials. It took me only an instant to realize that there was nothing even remotely 'submissive' about Rita. After all, she stormed off the bus alone, in the middle of the Arizona desert. Typical.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:02:50 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Rita Higgins
Message:
I knew a Rita who was very cool and very unconventional. I met her in Eugene. Later, near the end of my stay in the cult, I would see her on the streets of Miami.
she rode a bus in '75 around the country with my friend Justin.
Could it be the same one?
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:19:08 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Rita Higgins
Message:
John:

That sounds intriguing. It depends on what you mean by 'cool,' since I would not have described her that way. She was certainly unconventional. I think of her as a genius-level underachiever. That's partly why I'm so interested to find out what happened to her. The notion of her riding around the country sounds right. That's pretty much what we did when I knew her, at least two or three times. I suspect that she eventually snapped out of all that craziness and is now in a very respected position somewhere. She was always able to take care of herself as well as most of the people around her. Tell me more about the person you knew. Was she tall or short, fat or thin, handsome or plain, etc.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:42:10 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Rita Higgins
Message:
Well, cool for me is not Elvis Presley, you know? More like, Dostoevesky.

But anyway, she did not possess conventional physical beauty. what I most remember about her was her very thick sandy colored hair and her wide face and sorrowful eyes.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:19:42 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Rita Higgins
Message:
John:

Thanks for the description. Unless she deliberately changed her appearance that is clearly not Rita Higgins, who had either black or very dark brown hair, which was not especially thick.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 04:11:37 (EST)
From: bill burke
Email: bburke@rocketmail.com
To: CD
Subject: cd and jimmie
Message:
Hi CD.
Guess you are openly admitting to your athiesm!

..the mystery of infinity..

..simply experience what it is..

you have bought into that view of his that ..IT.. is 'this
infinite' that...well, you know the rest.

I suggest a visit to a group that is a little more realistic
about the nature of life and the CONCIOUS power.

We are in princeton NJ for a few more weeks and I dont have ready
access to a computer. I go to a mens group there and the
group is made up of all over 65 yr old guys. Academic
wasp blue bloods with old money.
All that fades before thier simple wisdom and right on the
money-er make that,-target, understanding and experience.

free men. not caught in the ghastly clutches of the eastern
thinking 'i am god' types. Best of luck breaking free from that.

go to the promise keeper event in your town. They are
overboard of course, but at least they are sane about the
basic reality.

prem rawat wants to be god. what a trap. his pride and fear
are just some of the hallmarks of that kind of delusional
relationship with life. I'm sure there must be SOME
good that one can get out of thinking he is more than the
rest of us, but I'll be damned if I can figure out what it is.

Dear Jim.
May you always shine on.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 17:24:44 (EST)
From: Deights
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sad but..............
Message:
Hi folks. My name is Dave. Kudos to the webmaster for a well designed site. Kudu's for the pre-forum guidelines too. Well expressed.

I received knowledge in 1974, right before my 17th birthday. My story prior to that time was much like others who've posted to this site.

My family was crazy, I was confused and very into trying to alter my 'conciousness' with drugs. I felt that there had to be more to this life, but I wasn't sure what that was. I had a thirst growing for things spiritual, and wanted to find God. I reached a point of absolute desperation. I was praying from a deep place every night to God to somehow touch me, but it seemed nothing happened. I really felt I was being heard, but.............nothing. I knew I wanted an inner connection and tried everything, yoga, tried 'meditating', but there was no peace. One night, I had reached my limit, and told God I knew he was there but I couldn't take any more. I knew it was wrong, but decided the only way out was to do myself in. I had a car that I knew could go over 120 mph, so I decided to get out on the interstate,and when the road curved, go straight and into a bridge abuttment. I was profoundly sad, but had no way out. In fact I said; 'God, I know this is wrong, but I can't take this any more. Please understand, I want you, but it doesn't seem I can have you.'

The next morning at school a kid named Allen turned around and started telling me about 'this boy who was teaching people how to really meditate'. I had tried a lot of things, but he was talking about an inner connection, the very thing I was looking for. I knew I had to check it out before I followed through with my plans of the night before. So I did. That was in the winter of 73/74,and I received K. in April of 74. Something did happen in that room that day, and I knew it. I proceeded to continue doing all the drugs and other goofy stuff, as before. I thought about knowledge every day, but didn't sit and practice. I was consistantly going nowhere, smoking a ton of pot, and drinking. I did that for about 3 years.

One night, after smoking the usual excess of pot, and after my roomate went to bed. I was sitting there thinking about how horrible I felt. I looked at my hands; there were old age spots all over them even though I hadn't even turned 21 yet. In a moment of 'clarity' I realized I was dying, killing myself. I didn't know what to do, despair.....again, and I just started to pray to God to please help me. Of course, nothing happened, so my despair just built and built. I had probably sat down and practiced 4-5 times in the 3 years, but I didn't know what to do. So I sat and tried to practice, my thoughts were racing, but it was all I could do. I had been sitting there about 10 minutes, when suddenly I was sitting there, I was inside this huge space, and a silence that was like nothing I thought possible, accept for this one sound, the sound of my breath. This sound was LITERALLY pushing my breath in, and pulling my breath out, and I there was a feeling of presence I can only describe as unqualified love. I was in this place for awhile, but became very excited, and very grateful. Of course prior to this, I avoided people with knowledge like the plague.

When I woke up the next morning my compulsion to drink and use drugs was gone. That night I went to 'satsang'. I felt like my ass had been spared a second time. After about 2 weeks, I was invited to live in the ashram and I accepted. I lived there for 4 years (until Maharaji pulled the plug, as we were told, because people were hiding out from the world and hitching a free ride.) The fact was we were a bunch of friggin religious fanatics. I have never been associated with a more deceived bunch of folks in my life. I DID practice knowledge for the first time in my life there.

(Yeah, I know it's longwinded) When I came to the Homepage for this site, it remided me of some of the media exposure Maharaji got years ago. Thats the part that saddens me about the people that had such bad experiences with Maharaji and 'DLM'. The source of the info is not a very good 'source', in fact highly inaccurate. I didn't have to search for the answer to why. This is not to blame, but I think back to my own journey to this point(41 years old now.) I would like to say that the pain and peril of that time right before I lived in the ashram was all there was of pain and peril, but not true. Awhile after the ashram closed, I had occasion to have a few drinks, and those drinks lasted about 7 years. As I look back on the ashram time, most of the time I practiced because that was one of 'the rules'.

Since then, the only peace I've had has been when I have been willing to see that everything I've done has been because of my own decisions, albeit, at times with a great deal of religious persuation. All of the troubles I struggle with clearly had their beginning LONG before I ever met Maharaji, and 'blame' has been my biggest obstacle to taking responsibility for the needed actions to break free of 'if only this wouldn't have happened to me , then things would have turned out different'. I did notice that the folks here that have done well, got to where they are because they took responsibility for making a better life for themselves, rather being a victim. I still practice knowledge, and although I bought the BS of the old days like many of us, I was able to sort out the real from the unreal. Funny, I'm actually grateful for the horror of my Catholic upbringing. It has helped me see that I was doing the same thing with Maharaji and Knowledge to myself, and others. I can't erase that past, and I am truely sorry for all the times I valued religious fervor (opening my fanatical mouth) instead of simply going inside and using the tools of self exploration. The more I experience inside, the more I value what I was able to salvage from my past experience

Yes, I still consider Maharaji to be my teacher. And yes, I'm very glad to be recovered from my religious obsession from days gone by(e).

It is a fact of my own journey that I would have been dead long ago if things had not gone just the way they did. I also must say that I am grateful to be alive, and hope I live a very long time. Life is such a valuable thing.

If people feel that Maharaji was responsible for the pain they went through, that is unfortunate. For my self, the process of finding enough honesty to factually determine the cause of my own pain has been very difficult, and very liberating. When I took responsibility for sorting through it all, I discovered that of all the troubles I've encountered, the one constant was that I was there. Taking responsibility for the right actions to remedy my own dysfunction than became a possibility.

That, has made all of my past worthwhile.

Best wishes to all,

Dave

'no matter where you go, there you are'.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 17:55:19 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Deights
Subject: Sad but beautiful
Message:
Dave--

Beautifully told. Very inspirational and liberating. Good work and good luck.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 18:08:11 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deights
Subject: Sad but..............
Message:
If people feel that Maharaji was responsible for the pain they went through, that is unfortunate.

Dave,

You sound like a nice, intelligent guy. Maybe you shouldn't have come here. Naw, just kidding.

Listen, I had a good friend hang himself in '74 because he was starting to doubt that Maharaji was the Lord. He was well-versed in Maharaji's threatening satsangs about the mind and doubt and the futility of a life without Maharaji. So he hung himself. Do you think Maharaji bears any responsibility for that? If so, how much?

Also, just today Jethro posted something below about the wife of a one-time 'major' premie who killed herslef after her premie husband, Milky Cole, told her that her getting raped was just bad karma. Again, Milky was, as best I know, very close to Maharaji and, as we all did, got his worldview from Maharaji by the truckload. M's responsibility for that?

Personally, I sequestered myself in M's ashram for the better part of eight years. M made it abundantly clear that leaving the ashram was tantamount to leaving the true path. If you doubt this I can show you several quotes. But then maybe you've already read the 74 Q&A I posted the other day. There can be no question but that he made that point then as always. So, what responisbility does M have for that? Remember, he asked me to trust him implicitly, to surreender the reigns of my life to him etc. etc.

I don't know what your measure of success is but I think you'd agree I'm at least doing alright. I'm a lawyer, have a lot of friends, some happy clients, a good relationship and enjoy playing music in my girlfriend's and my band. I take full responsibilty for being gullible enough to get sucked in. But you tell me, what repsonsibility does Maharaji have for warehousing me like that needlessly?

Face it, the guy's a fake. His knowledge of life is so off -- check out the Q&A where he explains that we're meant to be vegetarians because AS HE KNOWS FROM EXPERIENCE plants, unlike animals, grow from dead seeds. Embarrassing enough for any other 17-year-old kid supposedly educated at a fancy private school in India. But this was supposedly the Lord of the Universe uttering this nonsense.

I'm really interested in how you put this all together.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 19:19:55 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sad but..............
Message:
Unfortunately many people commit suicide. But do you condemn love because people kill themselves over it. As for whether you're alright, I would have been more impressed if you said you were happy.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 19:57:14 (EST)
From: jethro
Email: cadbury@compuserve.com
To: Passing thru
Subject: Sad but..............
Message:
People don't commit suicide because of love, they do it because of lack of hope. It is not unreasonable to expect that those who claim to have the Knowledge of all Knowledges could at least give others a little bit of hope.....
as PremPal once said in his youth 'Find your humanness first', what a pity he doesn't listen to his own words.


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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:40:32 (EST)
From: passing thru
Email: None
To: jethro
Subject: Sad but..............
Message:
People commit suicide because a lover dies, people kill because a lover loves another, people commit suicide because they don't experience enough love. Call it hope, call it peace, call it what you like,but to try and say Maharaji is responsible for the behaviour of premies is like blaming this site for the behaviour of its readers.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 00:06:58 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: passing thru
Subject: I call it
Message:
P.U.

Call it hope, call it peace, call it what you like,but to try and say Maharaji is responsible for the behaviour of premies is like blaming this site for the behaviour of its readers.

There is a difference. We aren't sitting on golden shitters, and flying lear jets as a result of what we're doing. 'Call it peace, call it hope...' I call it 'Money for Nuthin''

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:08:54 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Money for nothing...
Message:
...and the chicks for free! VP
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:27:02 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: he works damn hard
Message:
no, you aren't piloting planes, flying hours and hours and hours, only to go on to speak at events, give Knowledge sessions, and you don't do a whole lot of things Maharaji does. i know people who traveled with him, and can tell you that no amount of money could compensate for what he does. it's too damn much work. but he does it for the joy he gets in helping others experience that joy inside themselves.

people are parched for the real love, to experience the beauty within, and he is the one who can help them and he knows that, and he does everything he can.

a lot of people who would have otherwise committed suicide did not and now lead happy, healthy and fulfilled lives thanks to Maharaji.

everyone is important, not only the ones who failed to hang onto the lifesaving rope in this merciless ocean of what's what and damned if i know what.

if you are going to painstakingly count those who lost their grip, count also those who did not, or who, after having lost their grip, were able to get hold of that rope again, and learned to float, and even to go on to learn to swim. so many, many people have been touched and helped and yes, saved from the agonies, the angst, and the confusion thanks to Maharaji. So many have found clarity, thanks to Maharaji.

And we get confused again and we get covered up in doubts and repressive concepts again. And Maharaji speaks to us, and when we listen, really listen with our hearts and not just analyzing what he says but really hearing it in the heart, where it is meant to be heard, then we find the most beautiful clarity. Again and again and again and again.

all this stuff about so-and-so said that so-and-so said that Maharaji said that this-and-that at his residence, it's just ridicuolous. nearly if not entirely impossible to be put in context if even true, and entirely hearsay if one was not there. and has little or nothing to do with anything on that account.

do you have just one friend who is famous? if so, ask him or her what happened when the reporter printed the little interview they had. you will get an interesting lesson about how things can be so ludicrously out of context!!!
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 14:02:47 (EST)
From: Indie Yaweh
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: he works damn hard
Message:
HA HA HA

He works SOOOOOOO hard. HA HA HA. Christ, he even has some one to wipe his ass for him, the fat little tub of shit. He never worked a day in his life.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:08:08 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: he works damn hard
Message:
Works hard? Compared to whom? He does what is necessary to maintain what's left of his empire. What else would he be capable of doing?
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 21:18:26 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: A comparison
Message:
Red Hill:

if you are going to painstakingly count those who lost their grip, count also those who did not, or who, after having lost their grip, were able to get hold of that rope again, and learned to float, and even to go on to learn to swim. so many, many people have been touched and helped and yes, saved from the agonies, the angst, and the confusion thanks to Maharaji. So many have found clarity, thanks to Maharaji.

There is actually some truth to this statement. The ability of a charismatic or traditional leader to make others aware of something of value is a function of their fame, but not their character. I never experienced walking the kind of tightrope that Jim and David Wiener had to walk, so my experience of M has been more forgiving. I would even help him propagate if he did it for cost, and lived in a conventional house and admitted that he is not God and that he's made mistakes. Sounds like he considers such an offer 'enmity,' so there you have it.

I have a close colleague who is probably the most famous living sociologist on the planet (not that sociologists are especially famous, mind you). I've told the story about how, at the age of 80, he got out and helped me push the car when it died. He gives more lectures around the planet than M does, and has written about a thousand times as much published work (conservative estimate). He is not poor, but he is approachable, considerate (usually), and clever (extremely). Nobody worships him though, so he doesn't have the kind of pressures that M does.

However, his ability to make people aware of something important is not just a function of fame, but of ability. People are very critical of what he says, and he is not afraid of defending his position in an open or even a hostile forum. So, there it is again... the critical difference. Think about it.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 15:37:04 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: cadbury@compuserve.com
To: passing thru
Subject: Sad but..............
Message:
'People commit suicide because a lover dies, people kill because a lover loves another, people commit suicide because they don't experience enough love.'
People commit suicide when the ultimate promise has been broken. Many people totally entrusted their lives to Prem pal on all levels. He used to speak about constant remeberance of 'Him',
how about his own addition to Arti
'Meditation begins in the form of our Master,
Adoration begins at the feet of our Lord
Concentration begins in the words of our Master
I bow down before such a wonderful Lord'
These are HIS words 'passing thru'

You see many of us did not just 'pass thru' we totally commited and trusted him.
He betrayed that and many just simply could not take it.
By his words he set himself up as a spiritual father. With fatherhood comes resposibility, it is in-built.
He is as resposible as the parent who let's their child walk into a fire.
Premies must face the fact that they ARE in the world AND of it.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:45:09 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sad but..............
Message:
I feel sad right now. I'm having a hard time meeting my deadlines.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 18:42:34 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Rawat: irresponsible idiot!
Message:
I thing that summarizes it.

he is an idiot: too many examples of his stupidity.
Why don't we collect some (many) of them, I think I can recall quite a lot of them.

he is irresponsible: he cannot recognize the fact that his devoted premies rely on him for thinking and taking decisions.
he cannot recognize that many of them have serious problem he cannot address (part of it because he is stupid), and instead of sending them to people who could really help them, he sends them to a dead end, where some of them kill themselves.
This is a criminal irresponsibility.
And he is not stupid to the point he doesn't see this.
he is stupid not to be able to recognize his limits.

He is a stupid irresponsible, playing guru, taking people
nowhere.

That's 'bad'.

I take responsibility in fighting such dangerous folks.

His stupidity comes for a good part of his over-inflated ego, stupid guy convinced he is god made flesh, an other part is his lack of education.
He had plenty of time to get educated, even though he wouldn't go at school. Instead of this, he kept drinking scotch and running after his blond gopies .... too bad.

Premies, wake up !!!
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:59:49 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Deights
Subject: Sad but..............
Message:
Thanks Deights for sharing.

Some of this post has brought to mind something I learned about once...the concept of the triangle of victim/persecutor/rescuer. Yes it's an oldie. As long as we see ourselves as any one of these, we will keep rotating around the triangle, taking turns.

Moving on from any of those trips means transforming that situation - then it becomes student - teacher - ? can't remember the last - service giver? healer? facilitator?

Anyways, just a bunch of old ideas not related to this post specifically, but thanks Deights for your honest sharing. Your life is certainly your own and you seem to be happy with yourself now and how far you have come.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 02:00:38 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Deights
Subject: Focus on Gratitude
Message:
Deights,

I feel compelled to respond because I've made similar comments, only mine went like this:
-I am grateful for being raised mormon because I got a good moral foundation.
-I am grateful for LSD for showing me another reality and healing me from the shackles of the mormon doctrine.
-I am grateful to Maharaji for showing me how to get high without drugs.
-I am grateful to the new-age hooey hooey trips I got into which showed me that all paths lead to the same blissful state eventually. (This includes 12-step programs).
-I am grateful to my current husband for showing me the holes in the hooey hooey trips.
-I am grateful for this forum because I've actually recaptured a part of myself I lost while devoting myself to Maharaji for 15 years.

I'm not a victim anymore. But can I honestly say that I'm grateful I was raised in a dysfunctional family resulting in my addiction to sex, drugs and programming in a cult? Hell, no. In my book, God is either sadistic or has a really wierd sense of humor. But I digress.

My point is that I can no longer accept for my teacher a man so lacking in integrity. I remember being able to ignore M's actions and behavior, and worship him for 'transmitting' to me the feeling I had during meditation or darshan. But since I found meditation to be possible (even better) without the burden of devotion, I hope to pass this understanding to others who are seeking truth.

eb
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 02:08:01 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Focus on Gratitude
Message:
Well said eb. (hope you don't mind the odd cheer!)
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 21:54:52 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Focus on Gratitude
Message:
eb:

Up to the point where you started talking about your husband I thought you were talking about my experience (except that it was CS not Mormonism). Is it not amazing how commercial hooey hooey has become? Maybe it will subside after 2YK, when everyone has to come down. Rupert Murdoch is making a killing in the meantime though.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 00:23:27 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Your Story and Mine
Message:
Dear Scott,
It's like this: You didn't need my husband to set you straight because you're already pragmatic by nature. In contrast to you, I got so far off into the hooey hooey, it took my falling in love with a rational atheist to bring me to my senses. Of course, if I'd gotten to know you better on the Badnesh bus 23 years ago, well, who knows what would've happened. What's the probability that we'd still be friends?

In the spirit of jest,
eb
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 17:49:13 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Your Story and Mine
Message:
eb:

What's the probability that we'd still be friends?

As a friend of mine once put it about her ex: 'We get along like North and South Korea.'

I've met others from that bus trip recently. Actually, it was more like a slave galley, if I look at it objectively.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 15:00:39 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Darshan Dreams
Message:
Is anyone up for interpreting a dream I had last night?

I dreamed that I was squeezing into the back seat of an old, red-with-white-interior Volkswagon Bug. Maharaji was seated next to me. I got right up in his face and said, 'Is it true that you are perfect?' He said, 'I used to be, but then I met up with Andre the Giant.'

Now, I know that Hulk Hogan beat out Andre the Giant for the World Championship belt when he was affiliated with the World Wrestling Federation. But Andre essentially passed the torch to Hogan--he let Hogan win. The most recent incident I recall about professional wresting was Dennis Rodman missing practise to appear with Hogan on WCW.

I'm confused. Can you help me?
eb
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 16:51:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Darshan Dreams
Message:
I'm confused. Can you help me?

Sorry.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 19:49:57 (EST)
From: jethro
Email: cadbury@compuserve.com
To: eb
Subject: Darshan Dreams
Message:
Dreams don't have to have any meaning. If no mening is apparent to you then forget it.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 22:14:44 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Darshan Dreams
Message:
Dear eb,
All it means to me is that you know a lot more about the WWF than I ever imagined you did!
Take care,
Katie
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:35:43 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: WWF
Message:
Hi Katie,
One advantage to having children was getting to keep up with the latest Disney movies and professional wrestling. (I'm joking, of course). I did take the kids to our local arena to see Hogan vs. Earthquake in the early 90's. The Ultimate Warrior 'pantsed' Ravishing Rick Rude which was worth the price of admission!
I gotta get to work here.
I'll write later.
Love,
eb
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 22:19:08 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Darshan Dreams
Message:
eb,
I don't know about the wrestling stuff, but maybe this was filling a need to hear him say that he is not what you thought he was?? (perfect)

Then again the dream could mean something about death (as Andre is dead now).

Or it could mean nothing and I am full of hot air tonight. It's a funny dream, though.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 22:54:36 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Darshan Dreams
Message:
Well in sports, 'perfect' means 'unbeaten'. So obviously Maharaji was an early WWF champ with an unbeaten record.

Actually, the thing that comes to mind for me is a short story I once read where all the gods and goddesses of all times and places all lived together somewhere (in the sky, I suppose), and they and their powers grew or shrank in proportion to the number of followers they had (Zeus, for example, was now pretty feeble). Well, don't you see it?! That's exactly how the WWF works! The more popular a wrestler is, the more powerful and likely to win he is.

Evidently Maharaji has lost so many followers that he no longer has the power to win every match.

An alternative explanation is that Maharaji succumbed to the pleasures of the flesh when he met up with Andre. As we all know, he was perfectly chaste up until that point (as symbolized by the white interior).
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:19:45 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: White=chastity
Message:
Peter,
I'm impressed! Especially by your discovery of the symbolism in the white interior. Should have caught that one myself. VP
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:59:40 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Darshan Dreams
Message:
Peter:

I love your interpretations, especially the middle one about followers, etc.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:37:03 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Darshan Dreams
Message:
You were trying to squeeze yourself into an uncomfortable, claustraphobic, (german/regimented), unsafe-at-any-speed, life as a premie with BM, hence you were squeezing in next to BM in that Volkswagon.

Then, you finally get to confront the 'master' you have been following all these years and ask him if it was worth it (if he is perfect and hence can teach perfection). He says no, he got greedy and corrupted by fame (just like some boxers) and lost any chance he ever had to realize perfection, even for himself, let alone being able to show you.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 00:09:26 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Darshan Dreams
Message:
JW:

I like yours too.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 00:26:47 (EST)
From: eb to all
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Thanks!
Message:
I thought it was a very funny dream and wanted to share it.

I remember that darshan dreams were considered very important indeed.

When I hung with Sathya Sai Baba's follower's, I had a dream about Baba and told a group about it. They treated me as though I had manifested ash out of thin air, so great was their belief in darshan dreams.

Thanks for all your responses. I love this forum!

eb
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:41:56 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: eb to all
Subject: Thanks!
Message:
Also, a perfect master might say, after we all got the picture of perfection, that he is not perfect, because perfect must include imperfect. If Andre the Giant is a symbol to you of someone selfless? who let someone else win? then M meeting him is a symbol of meeting the selfless part of himself - which admits he is not perfect, in order that we all find our own perfection.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:46:51 (EST)
From: judex
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: more on dreams
Message:
ps I think it special you had a 'darshan dream.'

on dreams... two things I have heard, one is that whoever you meet in a dream is you (???)

also - a technique of interpretation is to remember how you felt in the dream - that is supposed to be the key. were you happy? sad? scared?

don't know if this helps. It is your dream. thanks for sharing it.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:02:35 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: judex
Subject: Interpreting the dream
Message:
Dear Judex,

My quandry is this: I question whether Maharaji really believes what he says.

If he does, he is arrogant and deluded.
If he doesn't, he is a liar and a thief.

Either way, he cannot deny that he claimed to be the LOTU, and revising the past doesn't set well with me.

Now to apply this to my dream:
I am Maharaji. I am arrogant and deluded or a liar and a thief. I take advantage of people's weaknesses. I am really not much of a meditation teacher, and I cannot face my past mistakes.

How I felt in the dream:
1) Surprised to find myself sitting next to Maharaji.
2) Surprised that I asked him 'Are you really perfect?'
3) Surprised at his answer: 'I was until I met up with Andre the Giant.'

Let me try this again:
What if Maharaji represents the last remnants of my devotion for him?

I'm sitting with him in an old, red car: red representing action; old car representing my vehicle of travel. (Quite appropriate). The white interior means purity of intention. My question to him is sincere, as is his answer.

Now, Andre the Giant knew when to quit being the king. He didn't have to let Hogan win, but he did. In fact, in the bout where Hogan body-slammed him, Andre actually jumped up to help Hogan lift him. The Hulkster acknowledges that Andre passed the title to him.

So according to Maharaji in the dream, he was king until he met up with Andre. And Andre (representing that part of me which chooses the teachers worthy of devotion) beat him out. The fact that Andre the Giant is actually dead probably relates to that Kafkaesque side of my personality.

This is the longest post I've ever written. Thanks for instigating it Judex. And to anyone who read this far, sorry for making a mountain out of a molehill while seeking gold.
Love to all,
eb
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:19:41 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Interpreting the dream
Message:
Truth here . . .merrily, merrily
life is but a dream.
My wife ran into Hulk Hogan
at the local Savon Drugstore
here in Westlake Village ,Ca
3 days ago.
same day as your Dream ?
anyway the Hulkster
wore a wife-beater T-shirt-
was friendly ,
and drives a Lincoln Continental.

this information provided for
research purposes only . . .
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 02:58:04 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: For Research Purposes Only
Message:
Dear Mark,
A Wife Beater T-Shirt? There goes another fantasy. (No S&M interest here: I want to keep what's left of my teeth).

BTW, I really like your post to the premies. The one Carol thought should be on the Best of the Forum. Are you on the Journeys page? I guess I should do my own research.

This will be my last post tonite. I want to thank all my supporters out there in cyberspace. I feel so much better and downright loved.
eb
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 08:58:40 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Fashion tips
Message:
dear eb -
A 'wife-beater' is one of those men's sleeveless undershirts. I learned this from the kids I work with (your kids probably know it too.) Horrible name, but that's what they call them (right now). Actually kids in California probably call them something else now - we are kind of slow at getting the news out here in the heartland.

Hope this restores (and perhaps even enhances) your fantasies.

Glad you're feeling better. I really liked your dream interpretation.

Love,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:34:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: My favorite new age guy
Message:
No, it's not Hulk Hogan.

Mark,

I just have to tell you that I enjoy your posts a lot and, if I were ever going to be new age again, I'd want to be just like you. Likewsie, if the good Lord ever picks me up and makes me Christian, I want to be like Mickey. Hell, if I were ever a premie again...

Naw forget it.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 12:54:00 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Everyone
Subject: I'm Back
Message:
Hey kids, I'm back from Panama. It looks like it will take several days or at least a week to catch up with all that has been going on around here. I just wanted to say 'hi' to all my ex-premie friends.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 13:22:40 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: stalking@freewheeling.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: I'm Back
Message:
Michael:

I need to send the LOTU video to you. Pretty sure I have your address from Katie, but just in case why don't you email me?

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 14:16:25 (EST)
From: JW
Email: joger02@aol.ocm
To: Scott T.
Subject: LOTU Video
Message:
Scott, Michael asked me for a copy of the video as well. It doesn't matter, but since he is just over the pond in Berkeley, maybe I should send him mine. Doesn't matter, however, either way. Just let me know.

Michael, welcome back!
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 16:51:02 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: LOTU Video... Katie
Message:
JW:

That sounds good to me. So where do I send mine, Katie?

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 18:45:56 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: LOTU Video... Katie
Message:
There is one more person who would like the video, but he/she is an anonymous forum person, so Scott, you can send the video back to me, and I will send it to them. Thanks much!
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 08:43:19 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: I'm Back
Message:
Dear Mickey,
Welcome Back! I am just stopping in for a minute here as I have to get to work, job 2, the one with work to do. I was just thinking about you this weekend.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 08:38:18 (EST)
From: Junior Mahatma Ji
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Where is everybody?
Message:
Does anybody know where everybody has ended up? All the high fliers (remember Mji used to say 'big shots get shot'). I used to be an 'up there' premie/initiator to be' until I realised the whole thing was a dead end.

What happened to Dettmers, Ira Woods, Bill Patterson, Joan
Apter, Jill Katz, Maria Isabel, Julien West, Newt Gay, Susan
Johnson, Nadine and Dimitrios from France, the transparent Padarthanand, Jagdeo, Charnanand, Rajeswar, Joe Natter etc etc? It goes on and on.

I'm wondering how on earth these people could still believe the
hogwash Mji comes out with, if they still do. Some of these people were on the edge of getting out.

Somebody let me know.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 08:48:23 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Junior Mahatma Ji
Subject: Where is everybody?
Message:
Welcome, JMJ

Like you, those people got close enough to the Wizard to realize that it was all smoke and mirrors. Many left and put it behind them. I have great respect for Bob Mishler that he didn't just walk away and keep silent. He spoke out publicly - long before those of us who speak out here.

When did you leave, and what straw broke the camel's back?
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:06:41 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: that's b.s., brian
Message:
Several people on that list are still instructors, or instructors again, and others are very much still involved with Maharaji. I am certain they would not like to be listed as exes.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:21:56 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: not completely
Message:
RH - I know that Charanand is definitely still an instructor - who else?
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:30:55 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: not completely
Message:
i know at least 5 people on that list still very much involved. at least 2 are instructors. sorry but i don't want to start a discussion on any of them, so will not name them.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:45:03 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: not completely
Message:
RH:

sorry but i don't want to start a discussion on any of them, so will not name them.

...and we thought you were in a cult!

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 10:05:00 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: i respect them
Message:
my decision has nothing to do with cults. it has to do with respect for individuals. i have much respect for all 5 of those individuals. as a matter of fact, i have much respect for all practicing premies. they appreciate and love and thank Maharaji. and so do i. i might be willing to be posting on this website, but i don't even give my own real name. why should i give people i very much respect any less consideration than i give myself?
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 10:09:43 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: i respect them
Message:
RH:

No problem. I talked to Jeff Grossberg some time ago, and think he's been in touch with some of them. He's an ex now, by the way, and involved in the 'communities' movement, as an organizer I think.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 13:28:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: Slumming, are we?
Message:
. i might be willing to be posting on this website, but i don't even give my own real name. why should i give people i very much respect any less consideration than i give myself?

Slumming, are we? What the hell is that supposed to mean? You are valiantly and beuatifully defending the only true master alive today who can save this world from itself! Why, 'if there is a fire and I am a father -- hey, happy father's day, Maharaji! We made you a bunch of gulab jamins! -- and I see my child crawling towards the fire....' you know. The guy's priceless and you're fronting for him. And what? You're ASHAMED? Hey, girl (it IS girl, isn't it?), whatever happened to 'stand up and be counted!'?

Red Heels, what is this jive yo' shuckin? Why won't you identify yourself?
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 13:58:09 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Slumming, are we?
Message:
maybe some day i'll give my name. when and if it feels like that would not inhibit me. this is a website that anybody can access. i can share my deepest feelings only wirh those i trust or with the anonymity i can enjoy with a nick.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 17:39:32 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: red heels
Subject: i respect them
Message:
Well, respect perhaps does require that you get their permission before you discuss them on the internet.

In that Maharaji as specifically asked NOT to be discussed on the internet, I can safely assume that you do NOT respect him.

I don't respect the little fraud either myself, so I can definitely see where you're coming from.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 18:12:45 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Touche, Brian!
Message:
In that Maharaji as specifically asked NOT to be discussed on the internet, I can safely assume that you do NOT respect him.

Now why didn't I think of that?
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 13:19:58 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: brilliant, Scott
Message:
...and we thought you were in a cult!

Scott,

That's another funny. Thanks. Hey, maybe you should just stick to comedy and leave the intellectual stuff to us rank amateurs. I'm still figuring out how I'm going to pay for Indie Yahweh. (Hey is that a good band name or what?)

:)
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:47:59 (EST)
From: NDYW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ex-tracting payment
Message:
If Visa is good enough for the Lord of the Universe, it's certainly acceptable for Indie Yaweh.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 16:00:32 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: NDYW
Subject: ex-tracting payment
Message:
If Visa is good enough for the Lord of the Universe, it's certainly acceptable for Indie Yaweh.

Good. I think we've got Iola's number kicking around here somewhere.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 17:12:14 (EST)
From: PaulR
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: that's b.s., brian
Message:
Please tell us which of these people are still initiators or still involved with GM. Also how they may be reached (if possible.)

Sincerely pr
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 10:46:51 (EST)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: Junior Mahatma Ji
Subject: Where is everybody?
Message:
I am not so sure that what Brian says is totally correct - i.e. 'Like you, those people got close enough to the Wizard to realize that it was all smoke and mirrors.' There are still many true devotees out there who have not wavered like the rest of us doomed ex's. Ira Woods was here in London last month and seemed to give an inspiring pep talk to all who attended his programmes.
I could give a list of hard core premies who have remained part of Elan Vital for over 20 years but I'm just too lazy.
I do not condone the longevity of these old timers - I'm just stating the facts.
Seymour.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 14:27:55 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Junior Mahatma Ji
Subject: Bill Patterson, et al.
Message:
I can't tell you about most of those people, but Bill Patterson, I have been informed by both premies and ex-premies, split from BM a number of years ago and is not a fan of BM.

There has been some discussion of Jagdeo on the forum, that was somewhat less than flattering, but no one could say where he was or what his state of mind was re BM.

What was 'transparent' about Padarthanand, I mean other than the obvious? He was one handsome guy, but I also heard him say some of the most blatantly racist stuff I ever heard from anyone.

Susan Johnson I liked and Joe Natter too. Very down-to-earth people. Didn't Dettmers get a job acting in a couple of vampire movies? I'm sure that was him I saw in the Return of Dracula.

So, an initiator. How impressive. Do you go through one of those 'initiator training programs' in Malibu, some of which sounded more like concentration camps?
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 16:52:46 (EST)
From: Red Foley
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: How about Arthur Brigham?
Message:
How about Arthur Brigham?
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:39:43 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Red Foley
Subject: How about Arthur Brigham?
Message:
I heard that Arthur, whom John colorfully refers to as 'Mahatma Pompoussassanand', is living in Europe. Whether he's still a premie or an ex I don't know.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 00:03:06 (EST)
From: Red Foley
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Arthur=Mahatma Pompoussasanand
Message:
Yes! How aptly put. If the shoe fits, wear it.

God, how we suffered at the hands of such fools.

If there was a God he'd prove it by using a lot more lightning.
(No threat intended, just an unrelated observatation.)

Arthur, if you're lurking here, REPENT! God, loves the sinner, but hates the sin. If this is sin this is it.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 04:23:07 (EST)
From: burke
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Arthur Brigham?
Message:
I heard he ended up in jail in thailand with his wife.
they bought some pot or hash and it was over some legal limit.

they had been living in perth austrailia.

glad to hear he is out of jail.

he has not been at the major european events that I went to.

arthur was an asshole.

probably because of all the anti-life messages and repression
from the insane lord of universe.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 07:04:16 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: burke
Subject: Arthur Brigham?
Message:
I met Arthur Brigham in Amaroo a few years back. He indeed recounted to me something akin to Burkes' sorry tale. All I could feel was..How are the mighty fallen! Maybe he needed to go a bit crazy after being so uptight (like me)
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 13:42:58 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: burke
Subject: Arthur Brigham?
Message:
Burke, thanks for that. Shows there is some justice in the world.

After he served his time in Thailand for drug offenses, I assume he is now alive and well and living in Argentina or Paraguay hoping to avoid the detection of the war crimes tribunal for the things he did in DLM.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:51:03 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: Elliot Brye?
Message:
Speaking of initiators, does anyone know what ever happened to Elliot Brye? She was really nice.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 06:53:47 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Premies
Message:
In my recent experience of premies, I found that premies do not tend to be any more stupid than anyone else in the population, whatever stupid means. Not any more stupid than people who call other people names, with no obvious gain except self-gratification. Maybe premies are deluded, even sick. Do we call sick people names?

If to be a premie meant one was stupid, then we must have all been stupid people. How then did we suddenly get so smart? Changed our point of view? Oh, so it's not a matter of brain cells, it's what we believe that makes us stupid or not.

If I as an intelligent premie read this site when a stint of premie-abuse was going on, I would leave and I would not return.

If I was a site that clearly thinks all premies are stupid, then surely only stupid premies would post here. All the non-stupid ones would not. What a shame, but then there would be no competition I suppose, for the raving geniuses who populate this site, knowing (almost) everything.

We don't really need any newcomers, do we. It might spoil the fun.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 07:27:29 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Ignore the above post
Message:
Brian if you read this can you delete the above post.

I think I am going through some strange sort of mourning and I feel like attacking people here for some reason. It's extremely self-destructive and a pattern I have now realised I have done in the past before when things get confronting for me emotionally.

So please guys, don't bite this hook. Im just feeling really sad.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 07:56:48 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Judex
Subject: Ignore the above post too late
Message:
I don't think your post was as bad as you think it was. Sometimes some premies are the butt of jokes and abuse here but it's always good to realise why. Mind you, I do think that Jim's a bit hard on CD sometimes. CD sounds like such a nice fellow too.
Sorry I missed you in London CD. I've had some health and car problems recently but I appreciated the invite. Perhaps next time eh.
And Judex, I hope you feel better soon. I shouldn't feel sorry or worried about any comments you made, these ex-premies have skins like rhinos. They know you didn't mean it old girl.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 13:39:54 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: No way, David
Message:
Mind you, I do think that Jim's a bit hard on CD sometimes. CD sounds like such a nice fellow too.

David,

You are, in my immeasurably humble opinion, wrong. Tell me, when was the last time you actually encountered someone who related to you like Chris? He's either brain-damaged or INTENTIONALLY irritating. There are no other possibilities at this point. Frankly, I don't think he's brain-damaged and, optimist as I am, I can only conclude his amazingly evasive and cowardly form of 'communication' is a fallback to a time when he was a mere infant, grabbing on to his toys and refusing to play with the other little kids in the sandbox. Remember how babies could do that? Sometimes they cry but sometimes, as in Chris' case, they clench on with a stupid smile frozen on their face. Remember?

Go ahead, prove me wrong. Get Chris to actually talk with you. Ha ha ha! He won't let go of nothing. Or anything. Nothing or anything, he just won't let go.

(And he did call me an 'idiot' the other day because I play guitar and am a lawyer. Boo hoo!! What the fuck?? This guy.... if there was a Chris character on South Park...) No, go ahead, prove me wrong. I'd love to see it.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:42:12 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Too late
Message:
Judex:

If I was a site that clearly thinks all premies are stupid, then surely only stupid premies would post here. All the non-stupid ones would not.

Actually, I proposed this some time ago when we were getting some premie posts that seemed almost deliberately dense. I don't think that it is necessarily true, however. I mean, it is quite clear that Mili and CD are intelligent, although Mili was sometimes more prone to react than think. It is more like you can't mount a credible argument that favors or apologizes for M given what we now know about him. That makes premies sound stupid. It is more like the sort of thing that happens when you go to a horror movie, drama, or a fantasy. You suspend disbelief and get wrapped up emotionally in a story that you would ordinarily regard as preposterous. Only with premies, they've suspended disbelief somewhat permanently. They are emotionally wrapped up in the story, and to them it's us that look stupid.

It's understandable that you might still wish to be at the movies, watching that delectable fantasy, or emotional drama, rather than dealing with the letdown afterward. But, at least you get to reclaim your disbelief and use the experience for self-examination. In the mean time you can start to believe in things that give you better odds for happiness. Hope you are feeling better.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 17:22:10 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Judex
Subject: Ignore the above post
Message:
There was some truth to what you said. As you started to mention
in another post the expectation that all the members of this
forum are going to be calm, cool and collected is unrealistic.
Nobody becomes a saint just because they leave MJ. There are
going to be ups and downs in people's attitudes even if they
are normally cordial. IMO, this applies to you, me and everybody
else. Why can't we all get along--never seems to work for a
long time. Utopias are places for people with all the answers.
Even recovery books are written by authors who sometimes fall
by the wayside. There are sad parts of reality.

Quite imperfectly yours,
Stephen
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:17:58 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: to Stephen
Message:
just finishing reading this thread - wanted to say thanks for your good thoughts.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 07:42:18 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Judex
Subject: Premies
Message:
When I was a premie and fervently believed that I was a devotee of the living Lord, I would often encounter and know very well, some ex-premies. One or two ex-premies were my friends.

When I was with these ex-premies, I didn't feel the need to try to convert them back to following Maharaji. I didn't even talk about Maharaji with them. I didn't want to upset them or start an argument. Neither did I feel the need to ridicule their beliefs or tell them they were lost souls.

I think the reason why premies here often get abused is because they try to 'teach' the ex-premies the error of their ways. They come across all superior and knowledgable. That is going to get people's backs up, for sure. In a way, the premies get what they ask for. And I believe that they get what they want. They want to be abused and ridiculed for following Maharaji. It confirms the THEM and US mentality that so often prevails amongst premies. I don't think premies are sick but some who post here are certainly arrogant!
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 08:03:58 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Premies
Message:
thanks David. the rhino skins image got me laughing!
Yeah I've started to see through my blind spot. They do usually ask for it, you're right. They do expect to be abused?
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 08:04:46 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Don't worry
Message:
Don't worry, Judex, I'm the Cursing Guru. I'm hear to help you. It's like... others have come and said 'Here is Superman comic' and then there's been no Superman comic, and then all of a sudden this guy comes, and he's got Superman comic. And you're like, 'Oh, you can't have Superman comic, no one has Superman comic... Go away!' But Guru stays and shows you Superman Comic and you get all blissed.

You're perfectly right protesting the insults. Insults are rude. But you see, they're so much fun, once you realize that rudeness is as rudeness does. Rudeness is the salve for 'Type A Idiocy', it actually fits right on top. Kindness is the salve for 'Type B Idiocy' which is innocent and bumbling. For 'Type B' rudeness is way out of line.

But back to basics... to address your thoughts, yes, we all were stupid. And we did get a little smarter when we left the Great One. The reason we were 'being' stupid is that the delusions we embraced were largely out of arrogance. Most of us thought we were being terribly smart to follow Guru Boy and that it made us superior. We were being really, really, really dumb. It didn't make us superior, it didn't even make us equal; it made us dumber.

The thing about being arrogant and dumb at the same time is that it can get worse. One can try to perpetuate it by trying to proselytize. This is 'Type A' stupidity. We all had it to some degree. The Boy Guru was selling it in buckets and most of us were buying. And from time to time, we'd try to sell it ourselves. We'd try with friends, relatives, maybe associates. Few premies would try to walk over to the Jehovah's Witness's and try to sell it. We'd probably deserve what we got, if we did.

It would be like walking into a bar full of con-man and con-women and trying to con them. Watch out, Wally, cause you'll get a bucket of tar over your head. Well, that's what's happening here.

When I was a premie, I remember Maharaji often telling the story of resisting the temptation to trying to save a drowning person because they might take you down and make you drown also. It was a comparison to knowledge... don't try to help too much with a person leaving knowledge because you might end up getting consumed by the doubts. I had really dedicated myself, and never would have spent time at a place like this website. Why, this website has nothing to do with knowledge, and I wouldn't be practicing knowledge if I came here. Not to mention Maharaji has give direction to stay off the whole internet.

Don't get me wrong, I love when premies come here because I love to express what I really think about Maharaji, premies, and how I used to be. It's fun and healthy (but fun will do).

It's not that we want the premies to go away, we're just saying... 'Sell crazy someplace else; we're all stocked up here.'
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 08:08:02 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Don't worry
Message:
Yeah. I understand you.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:11:28 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Don't worry
Message:
Hey Judex -
I can't really add to what Rick said, except to say that I understand why you posted your original post, and wasn't offended by it. Like Brian, I don't really care whether premies post here or not. IMHO this site is for people like you, which includes making posts like the one you did above, when the spirit (or whatever, moves you.
Take care,
Katie
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:16:18 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Rick the mensch
Message:
Dear Rick,

You said:

It's not that we want the premies to go away, we're just saying... 'Sell crazy someplace else; we're all stocked up here.'

This is suitable for framing. It's very Wise and also funny as hell.

Thanks, from one of your many shicksa admirers,
Katie
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 12:40:12 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Jack Nicholson
Message:
Katie,
Thanks. That's a quote from one of Jack Nicholson's lines in As Good As It Gets.
Rick
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:17:00 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Jack Nicholson-off topic
Message:
Rick,
That movie was so funny. (Except for the part where the guy gets beaten up. That was just tragic.) Nicholson was so bad that you had to like him.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 12:29:18 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Rick
Subject: Rick the mensch
Message:
Dear Rick,
See I told you you were wise and now I see Katie agree's with me! :)
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 08:41:37 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Judex
Subject: Premies
Message:
There's nothing quite like working your way through your own doubts and misgivings about Maharaji, and then confronting people who still deny them. For both parties, probably.

Premies who post here get to confront their doubts personalized as ex's who say bad things about MJ. What's with these ex's? Here Maharaji gave them this wonderful gift, and after devoting years of their lives towards his personal self-enrichment, these same people are publicly bashing him!

Ex's act like they are having to face a photograph taken of them when they were making complete fools of themselves. Their attitudes remind me of someone who awoke from a drunken binge. Now getting to clean up the mess they made themselves previously, they seem completely intolerant of those who are still staggering around and missing the toilet. Talk about your double standard!

It seems to me that those who don't feel as foolish when they look back at the fun times spent pranaming to Maharaji, have much less animosity to those who still line up to do so. Personally, I don't care whether premies post here or not - as in I'm apathetic about it. Like Jim, I haven't seen many attempts to respond to the same questions that MJ has spent a lifetime dodging.

Those of us who went through it and came out the other end have absolutely NO OBLIGATION to provide a 'balanced' or 'fair' venue for people who are not forced to post this devotee drivel. When Maharaji has made it clear that he doesn't want them to post here, has shut down the few places on the net where they could post devotional garbage, and refuses to use the internet to take this Knowledge to the world, I'm amazed that those who dare to defy the little fraud and post anyway use those posts to whine about the ex-premies who HAVE chosen to defy him and be responsible for their own lives.

Red Heels and premieji are obvious idiots. CD is probably the nicest person you'll ever meet, but is completely ineffective in an environment that exists for discussion and content.

Keith and Mirabai are the only people who have posted here as premies and actually discussed Maharaji. The rest use the forum to express their astonishment at the bad things being said about him here. And to express their suppressed anger by directing it away from the fraud who would be Lord.

Judex, your anger may erupt here. Your apologies can follow. That's real life. That's what we do. We get angry, and we feel sorry for it afterwards. The notion that life should be one long continuous carnival of happiness is the bait that hangs on the hook offered by cults. Those who bit that hook before and worked it loose are free to use this forum to express that pain, and to express anger and resentment at anyone still swimming through life at the end of Maharaji's bullshit lines.

The door isn't acually open and you're not really free to come and go. You either believe the lies or you don't.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:39:02 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: an obvious idiot
Message:
i know you are but what am i?
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:59:12 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: more fun than a sandbox
Message:
hey, this is more fun than a sandbox! where's the mudpies?!!!
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 23:34:19 (EST)
From: possibly remembered
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: more fun than a sandbox
Message:
i guess we collectively as devotees were and are (as we strive to be devotees) actually better than mudpiesin that we strive to complete a whole picture.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:22:06 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Premies
Message:
Thanks for that, Brian.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 01:01:16 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: this illuminating website
Message:
wow. my life has really changed since i started posting on here. before i was an intelligent, happy, kinky female, and now have through company of doubt that i am really a man dressed in women's clothes and have incurred a lobotomy to boot! i can't wait to see what happens next!
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 01:09:29 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: this illuminating website
Message:
Red Heels,
You're not intelligent and you wouldn't know kinky if it came up and bit you on your ass. Your presence on this website undermines your credibility... if you are sincere in the idiocy you embrace, you would be practicing that nonsense 'Knowledge'. Just what is it you want to say to the crowd here that thinks you're a fool? Sorry... your stupidity puts me in a bad mood.
Rick
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 01:38:24 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: RH
Subject: this illuminating website
Message:
Are you for real? or just a bad joke? What kind of lame premie would be looking here, when they could be merging with perfection, or seeing light brighter than 10,000 suns, or whatever other ridiculous things you people hallucinate you're doing. I think you need to get under a sheet and mutilate your eyeballs for a few hours. Then prostrate yourself before a photograph for a few more hours,and then pray for BM'S grace .

x
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:52:14 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: None
To: x
Subject: this illuminating website
Message:
interesting comic-book like satire, x. yes, i do practice, and enjoy 2-3 hours per day, listen to Maharaji often, do service and go see him in person when i can. i also run my own business and do lots of other things 'regular' people do. and i won't get into the kink here, except to say that i think sometimes what a lot of people judge to be sick or depraved in the sexual arena is really quite fun. we get so loaded down with repressions from our childhoods and society. and we get so very worried about what other people will think of us. and then we can't do anything we really want to do anymore, because we are feeling fenced in by others' judgements of us, or our judgements on ourselves. i say go for it. believe in yourself. when something feels really good and really right, who cares what other people think? i don't! and i know i couldn't even say all of this with total sincerity and ease if i weren't having a really wonderful experience, a really fulfilling experience in life. and thanks to Maharaji, i literally find myself feeling thankful to be alive every single day. now that's something. and it's most definitely anything but stupid.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:28:22 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: message=danger
Message:
'we get so loaded down with repressions from our childhoods and society. and we get so very worried about what other people will think of us. and then we can't do anything we really want to do anymore, because we are feeling fenced in by others' judgements of us, or our judgements on ourselves. i say go for it. believe in yourself. when something feels really good and really right, who cares what other people think?'

I agree that WITHIN REASON we shouldn't let other's judgments influence us, but can this be carried too far? Are you saying that we shouldn't have any limits here? Like laws or morals? Maharaji said (in a video that I watched recently) that life doesn't award you any points for good behavior. He said that you don't get to live any longer just because you are good. Does that mean that you guys think you can do whatever you want without regards for what anyone thinks? You clearly state this above. Does this let you off the hook for any type of responsibility. I hope not.

What if someone thinks murdering people is fun? Apparently this is a sexual 'high' for some people. What do you say to them? 'Go for it!'? Come on! I have a real problem with this portion of the message. Sorry. It can be dangerous and it is definately irresponsible.

VP
Responsible, not repressed
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:43:04 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: this illuminating website
Message:
i do practice Knowledge. it's great!!!!! i highly recommend it, and i am very thankful for it. i didn't put you in a bad mood. you went there all by yourself.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 10:04:26 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: fun
Message:
RH:

except to say that i think sometimes what a lot of people judge to be sick or depraved in the sexual arena is really quite fun.

More on this. Forget the rest of what these guys are rattling on about...

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 12:50:09 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: this illuminating website
Message:
Darling, you could put an erect penis in a bad mood.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 04:33:21 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: red heels
Subject: this illuminating website
Message:
Kinky to boot, eh. The idea of a premie indulging in leather, PVC, handcuffs, restraints, bondage, sadism & masochism, water-sports, gags, nipple clamps, whips and the stocks; well I find such a picture most intruiging!

Tell us more you kinky mistress you. God, I love it when you talk dirty to me! Ooh!!!
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:55:24 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: this illuminating website
Message:
haha. wait. what is PVC??? are you a dom?
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 12:25:12 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: red heels
Subject: this illuminating website
Message:
PVC stands for Polyvinyl chloride which is that wet look shiny stuff used to make boots, skirts and jackets etc. I'm involved in the adult video business so I have a lot of this gear for use in making video films. Aside from my professional interest in kinky stuff I do think women look great in it. I naturally fall into the dom catagory but I have enjoyed both sub and dom in the past. There's both in most people. But most people have a preference for one.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 14:04:45 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: this illuminating website
Message:
interesting. well, so far i am just in the sub category. it's great!
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 14:10:41 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Hey! Is this satsang??
Message:
PVC stands for Polyvinyl chloride which is that wet look shiny stuff used to make boots, skirts and jackets etc. I'm involved in the adult video business so I have a lot of this gear for use in making video films. Aside from my professional interest in kinky stuff I do think women look great in it. I naturally fall into the dom catagory but I have enjoyed both sub and dom in the past. There's both in most people. But most people have a preference for one.

Hey, brother and sister,

I have to remind you that Maharaji wants us to give satsang here and that means singing the glory of God, Maharaji, Divine Light Mission and Knowledge. Now, which of these categories does YOUR 'satsang' fall into? Besides, there are new people here tonight! But even if there weren't, don't forget Maharaji's here now too, inside your heart, on the wall and in your mind. He's listening and, frankly, is hurting. He's asked me, in my heart, to give you shit. This is NOT what He wants.

David, I want to talk with you alone for a moment. Red Heels, you can go back in the hall now. I think you should jsut meditate very strongly and talk with your housemother tomorrow. I'll speak with her tonight after satsang. Okay, Jai Sat chit anand.

Alright, David, what do you think you're doing? Maharaji let you keep your film company when you moved into the ashram for one reason (well, one main one, anyway. We've agreed to not talk about the other, haven't we?). That is because you're actually making some decent money and have been able to employ a bunch of premies right off the street, so to speak. This indeed is a service as you are helping with prachar. In fact, Shri Hans Adult Productions has been so strong recently, I'm thinking of stopping our nightly jumble blitz on the local community and will not, after all, fight the neighbours' restraining order application. If they don't want to give their tv's for the Lord, that's something they'll ahve to deal with down the road. Lord knows we tried.

But David, you KNOW that we're not supposed to have any sexuality anymore now that we've found Maharaji. Like Mahatma Ji himself said, 'Pussy's one thing but NECTAR!... What can I say?' And that's how all of us are supposed to feel, brother. You know that, don't you? Of course you do. So what's with this worldly talk? Even a mere householder would be ashamed.

Now, breath with me in an exaggerated fashion as I stare ato you and keep on talking. Feel the spirit? Feel your own thoughts being scared into the shadows as you try to imagine that Maharaji himself is talking through me? Remember, some of those old, musty Hindu stories about REAL devotees chasing after dogs with chapatis and what not? Yes, David, it's me, Guru Maharaj Ji, your one and only Lord and Saviour talking thorugh your empty vessel of a brother of a general secretary aka Community Co-ordinator aka DUO director aka contact person. HELL-O-O-OHH? David, It's me, your Lord. Stop thinking, just drift in the river of my glory. Feel the intimacy? Now isn't that better than a blowjob? Oooh, such bad thoughts, huh? Yeah, I jsut wanted to show you how wicked the mind is. (As if you ever forgot, you little rascal. Aw hell, I love you anyway).

Okay. Now, feel like a little puppy again? Alright, maybe we won't have to neuter you after all. Ha ha, no I'm just kidding. Who'd ever do that!!? Yech! Anyway, you with me? Good, now get in there and sing arti with the rest of my babies.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 14:48:16 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm having a memory
Message:
You cracked me up, Jim. And jogged my memory to boot!

Once, back in 1975, a group of sisters (renunciates and householders) was gathered in the ashram bedroom prior to satsang. The discussion was quite lively (we may have been debating the relative sexiness index of the local brothers). A couple of the sisters had been close to M in the past. One in particular shut us up with the 'Is this satsang?' speech. I remember immediately closing myself to the good feelings generated by the genuine and humorous discussion. To this day, I can vividly remember the creepy quality of the event. Crawling back under the blanket to please the Lord.

eb
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 15:25:04 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey! Is this satsang??
Message:
you are very funny, Jimmy! that really made me laugh. and personally, i think it's a good thing for people to break the old 'ashram concepts' and a whole lot of the 'indian concepts' (though I personally love a lot of those!). i love it that Maharaji does not tell the premies what lifestyle they should live (at least non-instructor, non-ashram students). as a matter of fact, i feel a freedom i never felt before.

but you are right, D/s and all that is a whole 'nother topic. one that most people misunderstand just as much as some people misunderstand Maharaji. it would be a losing battle to try to get people into that who are not ready for it or who don't feel they would enjoy it. yet it is interesting how things can be seen, the same thing, can be seen in very, very different ways. can you imagine how hard it was for me to find a boyfriend, being both into Maharaji bigtime and into D/s? D/s i could give up, as exciting and exhilarating as it can be (and have to give up if one day i again don't have a partner). but fortunately for me, i never have to give up Maharaji and Knowledge. he is my anchor and Knowledge is priority #1.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 16:04:17 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: red_heels@hotmail.com
To: everyone
Subject: now i've gone and done it
Message:
gotten too personal about myself. am sure the therapist types will have a field day. sorry but i don't care to hang around and listen. this has been starting to take too much of time anwway.

so, bye folks.
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 16:50:59 (EST)
From: Mr. Xtbmish
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: now i've gone and done it
Message:
forget it, sister
you're hooked

you'll soon be back wanting more
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Date: Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 20:37:24 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jim
Subject: Hey! Is this satsang??
Message:
Good to get some real satsang for a change. I promise only to film the Lord's perfect physical form in future. After all, that's what cameras were invented for. Now I must go and get some satsang from my friend JHS and get back on the true path.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 01:38:48 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: PVC
Message:
David,
PVC also stands for a type of plastic that plumbing pipes ans other building materials such as brick flashings are made out of. I guess one COULD find some sort of kinky use for these as well...
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 02:36:58 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: PVC
Message:
that's plumbing the depths VP
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 07:22:26 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Judex
Subject: In the depths of depravity
Message:
Hey, that's a good one Judex. By the way, I didn't tell you what you can do with clothes pegs, did I.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 08:20:37 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Plumbing the depths
Message:
David, PLEASE don't elaborate! I'm not kidding. I have a very vivid imagination. Stick with PVC.

By the way, VP and David, it's all the same stuff (PVC is always polyvinyl chloride.) Amazing, huh.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:25:52 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Plumbing the depths
Message:
Must be a bit draining, all that PVC.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:38:37 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Plumbing the depths
Message:
Judex! Bad (but funny) PVC jokes!

P.S. Did you ever get the video to work? Now that we have Sir David's attention, perhaps we can ask him,
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:48:16 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Plumbing the depths
Message:
Yes good point. It would save a lot of phone calls. David, I got the LOTU video from Katie and it doesn't work on my system. I get diagonal wavy white lines breaking up across the screen.
Is this because of us living in different countries (she's the foreigner!) ?
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 09:56:40 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: sex, pegs, pvc - to David
Message:
Hi David

just to draw your attention to the above serious post, with the dull title.

Thankyou. I am going to bed now (no sex).

goodnight.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 10:09:00 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Judex
Subject: You could be a PAL
Message:
America uses the NTSC video system. Britain and most of Europe use PAL while France and the Far East use SECAM. I'm not sure what you use in Austrailia. It should either be PAL or SECAM.

The video can be copied over into your country's format quite easily by any video company which advertises such a service. You'll see these advertised in Yellow Pages or whatever you have down there. I can tell you more later.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 10:16:50 (EST)
From: judex
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Sleep
Message:
Thanks. Why aren't you asleep? What time is it in your distant land?
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 10:17:41 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: to Sir D, Judex, Bill Cooper
Message:
Thanks, David. I know nothing about this stuff, but knew you were an expert. I sent one to Bill Cooper as well (NZ), and he'll probably have to do a conversion as well. I am actually relieved to hear that they use a different system, as I thought I had sent Judex a bad copy.

PS to Judex and Bill - the video quality was not that great to begin with (even in the original). I had it professionally copied so the copies should be quite good, but after conversion, they may deteriorate. It should still be watchable though.
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Date: Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 10:23:18 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: to Sir D, Judex, Bill Cooper
Message:
thanks - I should know - I once had a job as a trainee videotape operator at a tv station and one of my jobs was to watch the tapes go through the converter. I remember being quizzed by my supervisor about the spurious signals on the waveform monitor. that was before I started taking a lot of drugs so I have forgotten. However when I worked in this place I do remember having a nightmare about jumping off a tall videotape machine. This was in the days of Young & Restlesss (is it still running?) and on afternoon shifts I had to watch it all.
Ahhhhhh!!!!
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