Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 14

From: Jun 23, 1998

To: Jun 30, 1998

Page: 4 Of: 5



Richard -:- Forgiveness II -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:03:57 (EST)
__Judex -:- Forgiveness II -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:36:18 (EST)
____Carol -:- Forgiveness II -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 15:14:47 (EST)
__red heart -:- Forgiveness II -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:40:56 (EST)
____Becky -:- Forgiveness II -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:10:54 (EST)
______david f. -:- Forgiveness, anger, guilt -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:41:31 (EST)
________Judex -:- Forgiveness, anger, guilt -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 08:38:36 (EST)
______Jim -:- Forgiveness III? -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 13:53:30 (EST)
________Carol -:- Jim!!Creator... -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 15:00:30 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Jim!!Creator... -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 15:12:43 (EST)
____________Carol -:- Jim!!Creator... -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 15:19:04 (EST)
____Rick -:- Forgiveness II -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:18:01 (EST)
____JW -:- Forgiveness II -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 13:26:15 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Forgiveness II -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 09:08:24 (EST)
____Judex -:- to Robyn -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 08:33:01 (EST)
______Robyn -:- to Judex -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:42:42 (EST)
______Robyn -:- to Robyn -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:44:23 (EST)
________Judex -:- to Robyn -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 08:55:02 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- to Judex, new one -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 13:06:51 (EST)
__Katie -:- Forgiveness II -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:33:22 (EST)
____Richard -:- Not for a long while..... -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 12:08:28 (EST)
______Katie -:- Not for a long while..... -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 12:30:11 (EST)
________Judex -:- to Katie -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 08:58:49 (EST)
__________Katie -:- to Katie -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 16:07:57 (EST)
____Carol -:- Detachment -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 15:11:15 (EST)
__JW -:- Thanks, Richard -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 13:17:49 (EST)
____Carol -:- Thanks, Richard -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 16:02:15 (EST)
______JW -:- Thanks, Richard -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 17:24:02 (EST)
________Carol -:- No 'shoulds'... -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:04:44 (EST)
__________JW -:- No 'shoulds'... -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:28:08 (EST)
____Mirabai -:- Thanks, Richard -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 18:37:32 (EST)
__Carol -:- Forgiveness II -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 14:50:06 (EST)
____PaulR -:- request of Jim. -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 17:55:39 (EST)
______PaulR -:- Forgiveness etc. -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 18:08:23 (EST)
________PaulR -:- JW's explanation. -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 18:19:08 (EST)
__________Jim -:- JW's explanation. -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 18:31:27 (EST)
__________Katie -:- To JW - re your post -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 18:50:42 (EST)
____________JW -:- To JW - re your post -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:16:23 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Hey, I already got mine! -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:30:07 (EST)
________________Katie -:- Hey, I already got mine! -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:50:29 (EST)
________________JW -:- Hey, I already got mine! -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 21:32:36 (EST)
______________Katie -:- To JW - re your post -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:30:26 (EST)
________________JW -:- Well, Katie -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 21:55:29 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- I understand more now -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 22:05:16 (EST)
__________________Stephen Harris -:- Bradshaw vs. Kaminer -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 18:11:14 (EST)
__________JW -:- JW's explanation. -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 18:53:34 (EST)
____________Jim -:- People or ideas -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:00:37 (EST)
______________Katie -:- People or ideas -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:13:58 (EST)
________________Stephen Harris -:- People or ideas -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 18:19:43 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- People or ideas -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 19:14:40 (EST)
____________G's mom -:- you would like.... -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:03:48 (EST)
______________Jim -:- you would like.... -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:10:44 (EST)
________________G's mom -:- you would like.... -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:15:03 (EST)
__________________Selena -:- you would like.... -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:19:20 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- G-mom and Selena -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:35:04 (EST)
______________________Selena -:- christmas poo -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 20:01:24 (EST)
________________________carol -:- christmas poo -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:34:21 (EST)
__________________________JW -:- christmas poo -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:50:43 (EST)
__________________________Selena -:- christmas poo -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:07:30 (EST)
______________________G's mom -:- guess who's coming to dinner -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 00:19:10 (EST)
________________________Jim -:- guess who's coming to dinner -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:29:12 (EST)
__________________________g's mom -:- pic of them... -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:49:40 (EST)
____________________________Jim -:- what pic? -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:45:08 (EST)
______________________________g's mom -:- second try -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:53:34 (EST)
________________________________gsmom -:- third times a charm -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 21:13:25 (EST)
__________________________________Jim -:- oh THAT guy -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 22:01:26 (EST)
____________________________________G's mom -:- yes, THAT guy -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 23:22:52 (EST)
____________Carol -:- JW's explanation. -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:30:20 (EST)
______________JW -:- Not Necessarily -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:57:12 (EST)
______Jim -:- clarify? -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 18:13:47 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- RAWAT READ THIS -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 05:40:18 (EST)
__Sir David -:- RAWAT READ THIS -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 06:15:35 (EST)
____red heart -:- interesting -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:55:11 (EST)
______Becky -:- interesting -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:04:39 (EST)
______Sir David -:- interesting -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 09:01:24 (EST)
__Brian -:- RAWAT READ THIS -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:51:20 (EST)
____red heart -:- personal growth of what? -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:01:41 (EST)
__red heart -:- shouldn't bother reading that -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:51:25 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- a master SHOULD bother! -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 09:39:21 (EST)
______premieJi -:- a master SHOULD bother! -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:13:58 (EST)
____VP -:- I versus i, red heart -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 22:39:34 (EST)
______red heart -:- I versus i, red heart -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:43:58 (EST)
__Becky -:- RAWAT READ THIS -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:01:02 (EST)
____red heart -:- is fine -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:06:15 (EST)
______John Hammond-Smyth -:- Yes GET REAL you guys -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:16:55 (EST)
____Jim -:- BECKY READ THIS -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 14:12:48 (EST)
______Becky -:- ISLAM -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 08:30:45 (EST)
________Jim -:- ISLAM -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:41:47 (EST)
____NDYW -:- Go stand in the corner... -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 14:25:20 (EST)
__Gail M. -:- RAWAT READ THIS -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:21:51 (EST)
__Robyn -:- RAWAT READ THIS -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 09:28:30 (EST)
__Katie -:- RAWAT READ THIS -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:03:42 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- too much love! -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:39:00 (EST)
______Robyn -:- too much love! -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 11:10:26 (EST)
______Becky -:- too much love! -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 08:34:52 (EST)
________Becky -:- too much love!2 -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 08:38:47 (EST)
__Jim -:- RAWAT READ THIS -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 14:00:19 (EST)
__bb -:- J.M.= REAL -great soul- MAN -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 15:43:48 (EST)
____premieJi -:- bb fruitloop -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 06:56:07 (EST)
______Sir David -:- bb fruitloop -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 10:35:02 (EST)
__Richard -:- RAWAT READ THIS -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 05:53:02 (EST)

G's mom -:- pondering... -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 01:17:14 (EST)
__JW -:- pondering... -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:25:39 (EST)
____g's mom -:- pondering... -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:17:18 (EST)
______Katie -:- pondering... -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 16:17:39 (EST)
____Jim -:- pondering... -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:39:18 (EST)
______G's mom -:- subservience -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 00:30:32 (EST)
________Jim -:- Yeah -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 13:34:51 (EST)
__Jethro -:- pondering... -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 04:21:58 (EST)

VP -:- ATTENTION ASPIRANTS!!!! -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 23:48:13 (EST)
__Becky -:- ATTENTION ASPIRANTS!!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:13:23 (EST)
__premieJi -:- ATTENTION ASPIRANTS!!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 09:22:19 (EST)
____Johnji -:- ATTENTION ASPIRANTS!!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:11:04 (EST)
______premieJi -:- ATTENTION ASPIRANTS!!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:33:11 (EST)
________Selena -:- ATTENTION ASPIRANTS!!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 14:15:50 (EST)
__________Rick -:- ATTENTION ASPIRANTS!!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 15:54:03 (EST)
________red heart -:- premieJi is right -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:06:58 (EST)
____Judex -:- to VP -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 11:04:09 (EST)
______VP -:- Thanks, Judex -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 18:42:14 (EST)
____Jim -:- ATTENTION premie-ji!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 14:21:34 (EST)
______premieJi -:- ATTENTION premie-ji!!! -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 03:43:11 (EST)
________Jim -:- another polite post -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:33:49 (EST)
____VP -:- Clueless-not -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 18:24:12 (EST)
______Becky -:- brothers & sisters -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 08:28:42 (EST)
________Selena -:- brothers & sisters -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:19:43 (EST)

red heart -:- love and fear -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 07:46:03 (EST)
__Anon -:- love and fear -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 08:31:29 (EST)
____red heart -:- love and fear -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:44:03 (EST)
______Jim -:- come on, red heart -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:18:57 (EST)
________red heart -:- come on, Jim -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 22:39:43 (EST)
____Be non -:- love and fear -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:11:52 (EST)
______Jim -:- how about this, Be non? -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:20:55 (EST)
________red heart -:- how about this, Be non? -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 22:42:43 (EST)
______Rick -:- love and fear -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:29:30 (EST)
______Katie -:- the rotten vegetables -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:32:25 (EST)
__Rick -:- love and fear -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 10:00:57 (EST)
__Paul -:- love and fear -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:31:25 (EST)
____red heart -:- love and fear -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 22:46:57 (EST)
__King David -:- love and fear -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:19:25 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Question -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:50:18 (EST)
______King David -:- Question -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 15:21:27 (EST)
__JW -:- love and fear -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:43:04 (EST)
____King David -:- love and fear -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 15:31:04 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- love and fear -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 16:20:32 (EST)
________King David -:- love and fear -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 20:13:48 (EST)
__________red heart -:- to Sir K. David -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 23:27:30 (EST)
____________King David -:- to Sir K. David -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 05:57:40 (EST)
______________red heart -:- to Sir K. David -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:22:42 (EST)
________________King David -:- You're not so bad, Red Heart -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:55:43 (EST)
__________________red heart -:- You're not so bad, Red Heart -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 02:00:59 (EST)
________________Jethro -:- to Sir K. David -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 13:44:13 (EST)
__________________red heart -:- i know what i could do alone -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 05:36:18 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- what progress? -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:56:04 (EST)
______red heart -:- love and fear -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 23:04:55 (EST)
____red heart -:- love and fear -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 23:02:47 (EST)
______Judex -:- love and fear -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 06:55:22 (EST)
______JW -:- love and fear -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:08:37 (EST)
________red heart -:- love and fear -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 05:48:37 (EST)
__________Rick -:- love and fear -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 12:05:30 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- You're a fake premie! -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 12:43:22 (EST)
__________JW -:- love and fear -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:19:59 (EST)
__Gail -:- love and fear -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 20:14:06 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:03:57 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: r2harris@plymouth.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Forgiveness II
Message:
Dear All,

Having ploughed my way through the long and winding 'Thief and Liar' thread, I was fascinated by the debate on Forgiveness and amazed at the varying number of views ranging from simplistic to the byzantine and I figured it may be worth starting a separate thread. We'll see.

Speaking personally, I cannot forgive, not only because of what was done to me directly but because of the carelessness inherent in setting up this emotionally destructive and spiritually depraved pyramid selling structure. To take part, to permit, to see but not to speak, to be aware of but turn away from such a thing as this is dangerous to ourselves and to others.

Here comes the bad analogy; when the police corner a gunman they say 'put down the gun and no one gets hurt'. To paraphrase; stop being a risk and a danger to others and then we'll decide what happens next. (Told you it was a bad analogy).

Well I feel that Maharaji is potentially so dangerous to some people, that until he stops propagating his bullshit, until he stops his revisionist lies, there is no possibility of my forgiving or forgetting.

When I first came to this forum the person who got a rise out of me was Jim. I related to his anger and it was the same absolute fucking outrage that burned inside me. I had buried the anger because to do anything else would have resulted in my having to humiliate myself by explaining it to others. Remember there was no forum back then. My anger is important to me. It is a symptom of my malaise, not the cause.

I emailed an old girl-friend the other day, someone that I had been with in 1971. We had taken knowledge together but drifted apart in the premie tides. She was and is an extremely bright and intelligent woman whose judgement I would respect. I asked her if she still regarded herself as a premie. She said that she did not but was still kind of part of the scene, was planning to see Maharaji at Wembley etc.

It seems to me that all premies go through some common stages;

1. Everything is wonderful
2. Admission of some fuck-ups in DLM/EV hierarchy, premies
3. Admission of some fuck-ups in history of family
4. Quit the scene but stay loyal to Maharaji
5. Go through agonies trying to rationlise Teacher/Satguru problem
6. Piss-off and get angry/even/free/a job/sense of humour

We are all different and I guess will deal with it differently. I need my anger right now and being told to forgive for my own benefit sounds suspiciously like satsang.

Sorry brothers, maybe next year.

Regards

Richard
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:36:18 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Forgiveness II
Message:
Yes Richard that's good points. I agree that M should stop doing it. I hope that anyone having any doubts or wanting to leave finds this Forum and gets some help if they need it.

All I have to do is back off a bit and the true terror of having abandoned the one true saviour I thought was real steps in. It's quite deep and shocking but I usually don't let it affect me. I use this Forum as padding a lot. But it does help and as time goes by I get stronger. But where he gets you is really deep inside, isn't it?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 15:14:47 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Forgiveness II
Message:
Judex, good points by both you and Richard. The other thread went inactive before I could respond to your posts, but I want to say that I really appreciated your thoughts on the subject.
Love,Carol
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:40:56 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Forgiveness II
Message:
how sadly ironic for you that all the truths that could lead you back to feeling really beautiful again are indeed going to 'sound suspiciously like satsang.' just remember that you have a choice. you can chose darkness, or you can choose light; you can choose fulfillment or not, love or not, forgiveness or not.

Maharaji didn't do anything that needs forgiveness. all he did was try to help you.

and in the part of you that loves the darkness, loves the suffering, that's the part of you which hangs onto the anger like a sexy babe. but it ain't no sexy babe, darlin'. it's makin' you eat it, and eat it bad.

when you decide to love yourself, you will let go of anger, more and more. anger will eat you. anger is not your friend.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:10:54 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: Forgiveness II
Message:
Sorry red heart, but once again you are speaking in a patronising tone and invalidating what someone feels, and, the clever old M technique of reversing what someones feels back on themselves.

ie.I don't trust Maharaji = I don't trust myself
I am angry = I love being angry
I feel cheated = I had the wrong expectations

What Maharaji fails to teach is that the well of love inside of us, the beauty inside of us was not created by us or by him, it was created by the creator, whatever the creator is. Our gratitude should be to the creator not to him.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:41:31 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com
To: Becky
Subject: Forgiveness, anger, guilt
Message:
Richard, red heart, et al: Regarding anger: its interesting the value judgements that we put on emotions -- anger is not spiritual, 'love' is. But at their core, they're just things that we as humans feel and respond to. Having a feeling of love is no more human or real or spiritual than feeling anger.

Chogyam Trungpa, a buddhist teacher, once wrote: 'The situation of fear that exist in our lives provides us with stepping stones to step over our fear. On the other side of cowardice is bravery. ' We can take the same stance with our anger, or guilt, or whatever. None of them is inherently more spiritual.

Red Heart, though you may really feel what you are telling us, your words and perceptions are exactly why many of us left.

I don't believe you when you say that there is no guilt associated with M's teaching (as you mentioned in an ealier post). The aspects of guilt and fear are rampant, and are used to keep people involved. Actually, this really isn't any different than media messages we are bombarded with, except instead of longing for a better car or cleaner sheets, spiritual trips tell us to long for bliss and love. Not much difference really.

bye all, david f.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 08:38:36 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: david f.
Subject: Forgiveness, anger, guilt
Message:
I don't believe you when you say that there is no guilt associated with M's teaching (as you mentioned in an ealier post). The aspects of guilt and fear are rampant, and are used to keep people involved. Actually, this really isn't any different than media messages we are bombarded with, except instead of longing for a better car or cleaner sheets, spiritual trips tell us to long for bliss and love. Not much difference really.

Good points david f., thanks. Also, the guilt and fear exist in us already, as does the feeling that we are not good enough, not loveable, not saved, not blessed - and so those feelings are 'marketed' by the spiritual 'master' offering release/fulfilment.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 13:53:30 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Forgiveness III?
Message:
I'm with you all the way, Becky except -- what if there is no creator? Personally, I don't think there's any such thing.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 15:00:30 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim!!Creator...
Message:
Who or what is the origin of everything if not something we call Creator???Where did you come from? Your Parents? Where did you parents come from? What designed the universe and all it's myriad patterns? What is energy? What is matter? Do we exist? IF SO>THEN A CREATOR or Creative power EXISTS!! Defy that logic if you can.
Lovingly,Carol
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 15:12:43 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Jim!!Creator...
Message:
Carol,

I'm currently reading Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker. You should too. Natural selection 'made' us. WITHOUT a designer! Isn't that incredible?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 15:19:04 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim!!Creator...
Message:
Oh!!Natural Selection! So that's what you call creator! I will read the book to further explore this issue. It still had to BEGIN with something!What is the source of the first building block from which to select from? An Idea?
Carol
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:18:01 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: Forgiveness II
Message:
Hi,
how sadly ironic for you that all the truths that could lead you back to feeling really beautiful again are indeed going to 'sound suspiciously like satsang.' just remember that you have a choice. you can chose darkness, or you can choose light; you can choose fulfillment or not, love or not, forgiveness or not.
Maharaji didn't do anything that needs forgiveness. all he did was try to help you. and in the part of you that loves the darkness, loves the suffering, that's the part of you which hangs onto the anger like a sexy babe. but it ain't no sexy babe, darlin'. it's makin' you eat it, and eat it bad. when you decide to love yourself, you will let go of anger, more and more. anger will eat you. anger is not your friend.


My name is red heals, oh no, my name is red hart, and I talk round and round in circles. I don't really make any sense and I don't really say anything. I just keep talking and talking, round and round, I like to use a small 'i' when I refer to myself because it shows how humble I think I am. Actually, I have gone into a state of psychosis because I'm totally dissociated from my thoughts and feeling. Instead I've adopted a line of drivel from the programming that's been done to my mind. Really, though, it isn't good enough for me; it doesn't do much of anything for me, except help me to escape life. So the only reinforcement I might get that I'm actually doing anything worthwhile, is to perpetrate the garbage in my mind on others.... like you-all folks. So I hope you don't mind if I just butt in here and puke all over everyone with crap they don't want to read.
Red Fart (played by Rick)
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 13:26:15 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: Forgiveness II
Message:
Are you for real?

You know, it really sucks to invalidate and reject someone else's own experience and heartfelt feelins by the use of some stupid platitudes, used primarly as defense mechanisms. Typical premie, though. Total uncaring for the feelings of other people, as so perfectly taught by old fat boy.

And what part of YOU is it that LOVES tell other people what is going on with them and how confused they are? Is that love? Is that compassion? No. It's the traditional guru-nonsense where all problems are the individual's fault and all goodness is due to BM. Total cult programming. Stagnation. Sickness.

And the fact that your entire post lacks capitalization, except of course for the word 'Maharaji,' is just too telling.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 09:08:24 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Richard
Subject: Forgiveness II
Message:
Dear Richard,
I think your post very sensable and logical. I like logical even if it may not seem like it all the time here. For me, as I've said before my experience with BM was not hurtful but I certainly have seen here and felt the pain through empathy that so many did and do still feel at the hands of BM's world. For me it was my mother I needed to forgive and the anger stayed with me for 39 years before I found the forgiveness. I don't begrudge you or anyone their anger or letting it take its time and run it's course. I just believe that eventually it is the forgiveness that heals us. Maybe it is a forgiveness of ourselves really, that we weren't to blame for our hurts and I as a child was lead to believe or so many as premies were lead to believe, by not doing enough service, satsang, med. etc or not in the right way. That is bullshit. I think that the ability to tap into what is going on inside is a natural occurance and a beautiful and calming one. That BM uses to control premies, that it comes from him. So many of us here are PROFF that that just isn't the truth!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 08:33:01 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: to Robyn
Message:
Robyn, you just put another bit of the puzzle in place for me when you said that we (eg as children) were not to blame for what happened to us. That is so good for me to read. It seems so obvious after you read it but I never thought of it. Thankyou!!!
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:42:42 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Judex
Subject: to Judex
Message:
Dear Judex,
So happy that statement clicked for you. I became a bit clearer to me too as I wrote it. That is the one big thing my dad did for us as kids. He use to tell us our mom was crazy so it let us off the hook quite a bit as far as blaming ourselves although we still had that ingrained into our brains from our mom. What my dad did was give me the fuel within myself to fight it out latter.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:44:23 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Judex
Subject: to Robyn
Message:
Dear Judex,
Do you mind if I email you some time. I just received you address on an email we both received this morning. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 08:55:02 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: to Robyn
Message:
Yes, please do email me.

I'm sorry - at the moment all posts are 'blue' to me - it's hard to tell which ones I've read and which ones are new. It's like I'm 'all at sea' here at the moment.

Damn - having a computer means responsibility. It was all set up for me when I bought it but as soon as something went wrong it's like dominos - everything changed and everytime I do something to fix the latest problem, it creates a new one. So at the moment bear with me if I miss a message from anyone.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 13:06:51 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Judex
Subject: to Judex, new one
Message:
Dear Judex,
Just stopped in to print out a computer spec list PaulR sent me as I am going to get a computer today, I hope, or at least start the process and then I read this post! I already have expereiced those problems with work computers thought so no suprize really. I just wanted to see if Gerry picked out a name for his cat and if Jim anwered my post as I didn't expressly ask him to, he didn't. I'm off. The rush is when you live in the middle of no where it takes a long time to get to civilization. One and a half hours to the computer store but Jade, my daughter is going with me so the ride should be good.
Love,
Robyn
Oh, I will email you soon, maybe not until next week. :)
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:33:22 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Forgiveness II
Message:
Dear Richard -
Although I am a proponent of forgiveness, I truly believe that feeling anger is necessary in order to detach oneself from Maharaji. I applaud your expression of anger. (I remember the posts that you made when you were first on the forum, and I think your posts sound so more REAL now.)

Regarding forgiveness, only you can know how long you need to remain angry at Maharaji. I also think it might be better to use the word 'detachment' than forgiveness. I have found it necessary to detach from feeling anger at certain people because it was hurting ME, not them. My point here is that to feel THAT angry at Maharaji for the rest of your life will take up a lot of energy that might be better devoted to other things. IMHO, Maharaji has already taken up too much time in our lives!

I think I can say that I am relatively detached from Maharaji right now. I never had much to forgive him for personally, so it didn't take much for me to 'get over' my own stuff with him. I post on the forum because I care about what happens to premies and ex-premies, not because I care about what happens to Maharaji. I can understand completely, though, that you and others don't feel this way, and that it's right and proper for you to be angry at Maharaji now.

Take care, Richard
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 12:08:28 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: r2harris@plymouth.ac.uk
To: All
Subject: Not for a long while.....
Message:
Right now I would love to be detached about Maharaji but I can't. It dosn't feel right or safe. I talked to Scott earlier about responsibility and about trying to find the line between being responsible and blaming yourself. It's a very thin wire to walk along.

I would like some acknowledgement from Maharaji that he was wrong and I know many people who continue to rationalise their past behaviour in terms that exclude blaming him because they cannot detach themselves from their prior endorsement of him as their personal saviour. Oh shit, that's heavy stuff to carry around with you.

When I read stuff from Red Heels (or whatever he/she is today) I just see a disaster in the making. There is a price for that kind of unfiltered acceptance.

I'm gonna leave this for now, I'm tired. Thanks to you all for your responses.

Richard
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 12:30:11 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Not for a long while.....
Message:
Dear Richard - I know you are probably gone, but I do need to respond to your post. You have really made me understand where you are coming from. You wrote:

Right now I would love to be detached about Maharaji but I can't. It dosn't feel right or safe. I talked to Scott earlier about responsibility and about trying to find the line between being responsible and blaming yourself. It's a very thin wire to walk along.

There is another person in my life who I feel exactly this way about (if I'm interpreting your post correctly, that is!). I feel that if I stop being angry at this person, I will blame myself (in fact I did blame myself for a long time for what this person did to me. I am not ready to take responsibility for my part of the situation yet, and I'm not ready to detach, because I think I'd just get back into the self-blame thing again.

You also wrote:
I would like some acknowledgement from Maharaji that he was wrong...

I can relate to this completely. I don't think we are ever going to get that acknowledgement, personally. It's a lot harder to detach when you know the other person still thinks that he/she was right (and that what happened was all your fault).

You can probably tell that your post really touched me and made me think about some things in my personal (non-M) life. Thank you for that.

Regards from Katie
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 08:58:49 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: to Katie
Message:
Hi Katie. Changes to my system mean I have trouble knowing when posts are new or not at present. However I want to say regarding your post : yes I believe it is important to get the wrong validated in some way. If you are not able to do it for yourself that is why someone you look up to can help eg : the law, a person in authority, a therapist - that is why some people are only freed from guilt when a judgement is made by an authority. I know what you mean. For example I still have some really truly basic beliefs which I am surprised to find 'I' don't know about in all my maturity and wisdom!

For example my basic rights as a human being. Maybe that is why in rehab they gave us a sheet which told us our rights as human beings. There is no question of the connection between powerlessness and self-destructive behaviour, for example.
Lots of love, sounds like you are going through a lot at the moment. It does take a lot of courage to front up to things. However you don't have to face everythign head on all the time, that's my belief, because it can get too much. Best wishes.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 16:07:57 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: to Katie
Message:
Thanks, Judex. I am sort of in process on this particular situation - and I finally have gotten some validation that the person who hurt me really did so (in other words, that it just wasn't in my fevered imagination.) I suppose that's what this site is good for for exes, because a lot of other people associated with Maharaji will tell you that you got what you deserved. Anyway, I'm still wrestling with it, but it helps to hear the experiences and feelings of people like you and Richard (and many others here too numerous to mention, but y'all know who you are.)
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 15:11:15 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Detachment
Message:
Katie,
I think detachment is a result of forgiveness, or maybe forgiveness is a result of detachment!!They are definitely related in some way. I answered Richard before reading all the other responses this time. I mentioned that I thought acceptance may be another word for the process. Acceptance of the wrongs done, pain felt, processing by whatever method worked for us, and knowledge of how the past may effect our present course, and how adjustments need to be made to stay on our CHOSEN course rather than drift with no direction.
Carol
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 13:17:49 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Thanks, Richard
Message:
Richard,

Thanks so much for your post. I can tell how heartfelt it is, and I can completely relate to it. When I first left the cult, anger was the first real emotion I had felt in years. It felt wonderful. Then I had to learn to direct it someplace and I think I did that. I directed it to trying to repair the damage BM and his cult caused me. I pursued my career with double the effort, because I was not about to let BM be successful in robbing me of all the chances I had in my 20s when I rotted away in an ashram.

I pursued repairing the damage the cult caused my family. I apolgized to them. I told my baby sister how sorry I was I missed he wedding because it happened the same weekend as Guru Puja, I apologized to my grandmother for missing my grandfather's funeral, because the ashram wouldn't fund the transport, etc., etc.

And, as they say, the best revenge is 'living well.' So I made sure I did that. But I don't forgive either. Some things are just unforgivable, and I don't think you should feel guilty or lacking in some way for not doing some ritualistic 'forgiving.' For me, it's better to take some action, and to analyze those feelings rather than to try and 'let them go' whatever that means.
Also, as you say, since BM is currently continuing to be a charlatan and abuse people, basically to take their love, sincerity and desire to know the truth for his own selfish purposes, and because he lacks all integrity and won't accept any responsibilty for the shit he did to me and other people, he doesn't deserve forgiveness. If this makes my un-christian, or un-new-age, so be it.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 16:02:15 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Thanks, Richard
Message:
JW you said: 'Some things are just unforgivable'

Many people, maybe the majority, will support you in this belief. It's at the root of our differences of opinion about the emotionally loaded word 'forgiveness'. We all know a persons apology means nothing if it is not sincere. I also know that forgiveness cannot be real unless it is. It cannot occur out of guilt or ritualistic gesture.

At the base of my belief in the power and value of forgiveness is a belief that there is nothing that CANNOT be forgiven. Or maybe, that there is nothing that cannot change into something else that is better.

That is because I believe in a world that follows natural laws. That DOES NOT mean that I don't think there are or should be consequences for hurtful actions by ignorant or sick people. Their actions (and mine) elicit the consequences in a very natural way according to natural laws. I guess it is sort of like 'karma': what you do or think comes back to you. It's another loaded and misunderstood word for a concept about how life works. Or scientific principles, like 'For every action, there is a reaction.'

It's not up to me to make the change happen in anyone but myself. Call it New Age if you want, but I recognize that my thoughts and actions and reactions are the source of my experience. When I try to find the meaning in Bad things that others or myself have done,
I usually conclude that we are all human (Including M)and capable of vast ignorance and delusions. I also believe we are all capable of changing into loving beings one moment at a time and that something about the way we were created pushes us toward this way of being.
Lovingly offered, Carol
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 17:24:02 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Thanks, Richard
Message:
Thanks, Carol. I agree that people should be free to forgive whatever they feel they need to, but in the alternative, I don't think someone should be considered less, or unevolved, or unempathetic, or 'holding on to anger', because they really think something IS unforgivable. So, I guess I agree that it's really an individual thing. And I haven't seen you say it, but I have been confronted by people who say that UNLESS I forgive, and UNLESS I let go of it, that I can't really grow, or be free and therefore I really SHOULD. Again, I reject that kind of thinking, because, again, I think it's a really individual thing.

I think your own thoughts and emotions only cause you problems if you don't understand what they are. I think anger, or love, or whatever, can be really damaging if you lack self-awareness and find yourself acting on those feelings, or obsessing on them, when you don't understand what they are. That's why if someone like Richard talks about his feelings of anger, it's really, really, healthy, because I think he helps himself and others be aware of why they feel that way. Somehow, too, I think, that when you say something in words, especially to someone who understands what you are feeling, like as ex-premie, the emotions tend to kind of lose their power over you and you tend to get power over them. I'm always afraid that if people are told they should let go of their anger, and forgive, that they are less likely to express those healthy feelings. At least I think that's true for me.

I also agree that everyone is capable of change, and that even BM could turn into a reputable, loving human being. I just haven't seen any evidence of it so far.

Thanks, Carol, I really enjoy your posts.

JW
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:04:44 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: No 'shoulds'...
Message:
JW, I agree with you it is wrong for someone to tell you what you must or should do. I especially hate the idea that gets circulated sometimes that people are responsible for their own illness, like cancer...that if they don't get better, it is because they didn't think positively enough about it. But on the other hand, being positive and visualising a positive outcome can be helpful to many who are ill. It's just that they should not be blamed if they don't do it!
Glad I'm able to present a variation and have it appreciated.
Thanks for responding,Carol
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:28:08 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: No 'shoulds'...
Message:
Carol,

I agree completely and I, also, get really pissed with that idea that someone is responsible for their own injuries, illness or problems. I find it especially troubling, because, according to the woman who got that letter from Marolyn, that bullshit is one of BM's current pontifications. It DOES go right along with BM's trip, that everything good comes form HIM and everything BAD comes from YOURSELF, but it's really reprehensible that he would tell premies that, who are primed to take any stupid thing he says as gospel. Blaming the victim is so widespread, but it always surprises me when otherwise intelligent people accept it.

I have also been told by certain people that I 'must' engage in forgiveness, or that I can't grow as a person. That it's absolutely essential for someone to be happy. Even though sometimes these same people will say you have to do it when you are 'ready' and 'in your own time', etc. it is still implied that the 'forgiveness' is an essential goal that you MUST reach. This is what I object to and don't accept. I know people have been helped by engaging in forgiveness, I just think it's an individual thing, and shouldn't be considered an essential goal for everyone, or as some kind of inherent good.

thanks for your comment,

JW
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 18:37:32 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Thanks, Richard
Message:
I definitely agree that one should stick with feelings of not forgiving. One cannot force the issue at all. I just feel it is our potential to be able to as human beings. All emotions and thoughts should be honoured, I feel. Of course as long as one doesn't act out destructively to others then one should be free to feel all of ones feelings including anger etc...

regards Mirabai
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 14:50:06 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Forgiveness II
Message:
Richard,
No one is telling you to get over your anger, or if they are, it is not something reasonable to ask of another. It can only be asked by you, when and if you want to. As long as your anger surrounding a particular person or event serves a positive purpose for you, you will be unable to let go of it. It takes a lot of personal effort. You may never want to. I hope you all had a chance to see my responses to the earlier thread when I explained what it took for me. Forgiveness is just one process to become free. Maybe acceptance is a better would for the process.
Like you implied, it's an individual thing. Personally I don't enjoy the experience of anger or like to think of myself as a person who is angry and resentful. For someone else, maybe it's sort of a warrior/protector that they see themselves as, someone who doesn't let anything get to them. I have to say that I feel stronger and more protected from any thing someone might say or do to me, as a result of my process.
Carol
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 17:55:39 (EST)
From: PaulR
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: request of Jim.
Message:
Dear Jim,

Please may I apologise for my comment '. . . GM's directive.'

That was a low blow derived from my experience as a debator which is a verbal form of war, which is inappropriate in this forum.

Also:
As a simple response to your many posts, I say to you we must all measure our own responsibility in our participation in GM's scheme.

I have learned much from the threads which followed my forgiveness post.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 18:08:23 (EST)
From: PaulR
Email: None
To: ALL
Subject: Forgiveness etc.
Message:
I just spent 55 minutes catching up on the two forgiveness threads. I still have my head on my shoulders (not in a basket.)

I only get 60 minutes at the library here.

I heard a lot that I needed to hear. I learned a lot from you all too.

In particular I would liike to thank Judex (for philosophical incisiveness) and Carol (for relating the subject to her personal experience)

good wishes to us all. PaulR

Thanx to Becky for helping me to understand how I have been feeling in an underlying way. That I am thankful for the knowledge about the ultimate thing even though I do NOT hold that GM is that ultimate thing.

The bottom line experience of the threads has been that (IMO) we need to take responsibility for our own participation in Premiedom as well as all aspects of our social interactions.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 18:19:08 (EST)
From: PaulR
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW's explanation.
Message:
Re your message of Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 18:41:39 (EST)
From: JW To: Scott T. Subject: Okay, I'll Try

You Posted:
When Paul and some others say forgive, they mean a sort of internal, new-age ritual in which they tacitly 'forgive'
someone who did them harm, in a kind of afirmation. This supposedly results in a feeling of freedom and a lighter
burden because they are no longer holding a grudge. This type of ritual has become increasingly popular in the inner-child/abused-child/toxic-parent/Bradshaw-bullshit/I'm-dyusfunctional-you're-dysfunctional/12-step/est-like,
world. In addition to the feeling of 'freedom' one supposedly gets, it also allows the forgiver to feel spiritually and
morally superior by being SO magnanimous and selfless to forgive someone, even if the perpetrator doesn't even
acknolwedge that any harm occurred, and

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
RESPONSE:

This is a very inflexible judgement of an awful lot of people.

Has it ever occured to you that the people here in this forum might be able to learn something useful from:

inner-child/abused-child/toxic-parent/Bradshaw-bullshit/I'm-dyusfunctional-you're-dysfunctional/12-step/est-like, world.

Also your explanation of my own feelings is monolithically/(sp) inaccurate.

Notwithstanding, good wishes from PaulR
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 18:31:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PaulR
Subject: JW's explanation.
Message:
This is a very inflexible judgement of an awful lot of people.

You mean you don't agree with it?

Has it ever occured to you that the people here in this forum might be able to learn something useful from:

inner-child/abused-child/toxic-parent/Bradshaw-bullshit/I'm-dyusfunctional-you're-dysfunctional/12-step/est-like, world.


No, certainly not.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 18:50:42 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: PaulR
Subject: To JW - re your post
Message:
JW said, in one of his posts yesterday re forgiveness:
This type of ritual has become increasingly popular in the inner-child/abused-child/toxic-parent/Bradshaw-bullshit/I'm-dyusfunctional-you're-dysfunctional/12-step/est-like, world.

Because I am fond of JW, and because I have never heard him say anything like this before, I didn't say anything at the time when I read it. This particular sentence, however, did make me angry, and Paul's post (and Jim's subsequent answer) did make me want to say something to Joe (and everyone). So here's my open letter:

Dear Joe,
In the above sentence, you are lumping together a whole lot of groups of people who may or may not belong together, or even believe the same thing. There are people on the forum who may belong to one or more of these groups, and to imply that they are full of shit is IMHO not cool. For example, I know there are ex-premies on here, including me, that are abused children, or that participate in 12-step groups, or that read books by John Bradshaw, or that have TRULY been the victims of toxic parents, and so forth. I haven't personally witnessed any of these people criticizing you on the forum for not being good enough, or for not 'forgiving' enough, or for any other beliefs that you might have. Therefore, I don't think you should group all of those experiences and/or beliefs together and imply that they are bullshit.

You usually NEVER say unaccepting and judgemental things (IMHO) such as the sentence I quoted. Therefore I conclude that this may be a sore subject with you, and you may have had provocation in order to have said what you said. However, I did find what you said to be hurtful, to me personally. (Plus it made me angry).

It's hard to write this, Joe. I hope you can accept it.

Love,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:16:23 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: To JW - re your post
Message:
First, does Brian or anyone know why the boxes for these particular posts are elongated? Is anyone else seeing them the same way I do. It makes them quite hard to read.

Sorry if you got angry, Katie, but as we have been saying, anger is okay. I didn't mean to offend, and I didn't intend to say that anyone who believes in any of those things is wrong. I apologize if what I said hurt you. I certainly didn't mean to do that.

I do have my own reasons for thinking Bradshaw preaches bullshit, but that's just me. And I guess that's another discussion which we could have sometime. I have spent a lot of time reading everything Bradshaw wrote, going to hear him speak, going to his workshops, etc. etc., so it IS an informed opinion, although you might disagree with me. And it is an opinion held by a sizeable number of people, not just me, by the way.

As to those other 'groups' (and I don't think they aregroups, by the way, I'm Dysfunctional, You're Dysfunctional, for example, was a book written by a women that was VERY critical of all of those viewpoints and is certainly NOT a group) (I guess est is a group or rather a cult, but I'm not sure if you would want to defend that, do you?)

I have found that the 'forgiveness' issue is common to all of them, to one degree or another, and that was the only issue I was referring to in regard to them. Other than Bradshaw, I did not imply that I had ANY problem with any of those other terms, or that people haven't been helped by the philosophies that use them, and of course I didn't say they were full of shit. I also did not imply that all those terms are the same, or that people who utilize them all believe the same things. I know for a fact thay don't. So, I think you have to a degree overreacted, or over-broadened the subject of my post.

I also don't deny that people may have been helped by Bradshaw, despit my own personal opinion of what he does.

Katie, I know this forgiveness issue is an important one for you. It is probably a lot more important for you than it is for me and so what I say might sound flippant. I sould be more sensitive on that issue, and thanks for pointing that out. I respect your opinion and friendship immensely and I wouldn't want a difference of opinion to come between us.

By the way, you should yell at Jim and Rick too, because they agreed with me! (just kidding).
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:30:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Hey, I already got mine!
Message:
By the way, you should yell at Jim and Rick too, because they agreed with me! (just kidding).

Joe, this really wasn't necessary. Katie's kicked my butt so often, her husband, Peter, is starting to wonder if this is something we're enjoying a little TOO much. As for Laurie, my girlfriend, she long ago accepted that she won't be the only one to tell me to fuck off from time to time.

Joe, hold the line here. Don't give in. Remember G-Mom's on side, as is x, John, tons of people. Gail, don't forget Gail. Brian hasn't said anything but he's always good for a small donation.

Bradshaw is a goof (in jailhouse terminology, by the way, at least here in Canada, 'goof' is the worst thing you can be called. The worst!)

Here, I'll go find some Bradshaw somewhere....

Yes, to see it from more than one vantage point, and to see the shadow side. It's like polarity is me getting it that I am a very good man and really committed to being good, but also capable of evil. And that I have been evil at times, I have been crazy at times, and I have run over people. I have screamed at my wife and children. That there's a Mother Theresa in me and there's a Hitler, possibly, in me.

I don't ever want to forget that, because then I'll become polarized as a righteous person, judging everybody else as unrighteous because they don't measure up to my standards. I think there's a sense of fate and mystery about every human being that will not allow them, ultimately, to be in a category.


I'm sorry, this guy's got NOTHING to say. He speaks in empty truisms dollied up in his special terminology. 'Toxic shame'? Ha ha ha! Oops, sorry, must be my shadow.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:50:29 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, I already got mine!
Message:
Jim,
What do you mean 'hold the line'? I thought this was an ex-premie forum here. Am I in the wrong place?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 21:32:36 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, I already got mine!
Message:
Bradshaw is a goof (in jailhouse terminology, by the way, at least here in Canada, 'goof' is the worst thing you can be called. The worst!)

I couldn't agree more. His whole trip is telling everyone or maybe not everyone just 99% of the population, is from a dysfunctional family centered on addiction, and people are addicted to absolutely everthing imaginable, and if you disagree, you are just repressing, acting out in other ways. There is NO compromise here. It's that or nothing. Plus, I find him annoying and incoherent, and he wants to be a preacher, really, having been a catholic priest at one point, or at least having been in the sesminary. How he got PBS to run his lectures endlessly is beyond me.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:30:26 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: To JW - re your post
Message:
Dear Joe -
First, Jim and Rick can consider themselves yelled at by me for agreeing with you (I think they always do, anyway, right guys? Behave yourselves!!)

I agree that I might have over-reacted. However I DID object to you hyphenating all those things together - and together with the word bullshit. I am sure you can think of similar examples that you'd object to. If that's not what you meant, then I accept your apology, and please accept mine for overreacting.

Love,
Katie

P.S. Re: John Bradshaw. I have only read one book by him, and I found it pretty impenetrable. However, I did read an interview with him once in which he described a concept which I had never heard of (emotional incest), which helped me immensely. So I can't say he's totally full of shit.

P.P.S. Also, I know 'I'm dysfunctional, you're dysfunctional' is a book. I could have bought it remaindered, but I did not, and now I wish I had. Also, I really DID object to your linking est with those other groups (you forgot ACIM, by the way), but other people on here may not. I can't say I really know much about est except by hearsay.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 21:55:29 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Well, Katie
Message:
Katie, just to clarify:

I agree that I might have over-reacted. However I DID object to you hyphenating all those things together - and together with the word bullshit

Well, again, Katie, I only referred to Bradshaw as 'bullshit' and not those other concepts, not that I don't think they have problems. I was referring to all of those concepts as sources of the 'forgiveness' idea as a part of personal development. Nothing more.

Also, I know 'I'm dysfunctional, you're dysfunctional' is a book. I could have bought it remaindered, but I did not, and now I wish I had.

The author is Wendy Kaminer and I thought the book was helpful. I keep in on my bookshelf next to Bradshaw's epic work/dreck: 'Healing the Shame that Binds You.' She deals with the concepts (again, they are NOT groups) of inner child, toxic parents, co-dependency, shame, etc. Regarding Bradshaw, she states:

The therapeutic view of evil as sickness, not sin, is strong in codependency theory ....'Shaming' children, calling them bad, is considered a primary form of abuse. Both guilt and shame 'are not usefult as a way of life,' Bradshaw writes, 'Guilt makes everything harder...We need to forgive ourselves.' Someone should remind Bradshaw that there's a name for people who lack guilt and shame: sociopaths. We ought to be grateful if guilt makes things like murder and moral corruption 'harder.'

I'm surprised you haven't heard more of Bradshaw, his lectures were shown endlessly on PBS (with a large, metal mobile in the background representing the 'balanced' family) in the 80s. He toured, wrote books and made a fortune.

I really DID object to your linking est with those other groups (you forgot ACIM, by the way), but other people on here may not.

Again, Katie, with the exception of est, these things are NOT GROUPS. They are just concepts USED by some authors, and groups. There is a big difference there. I didn't attack any 'group' and I didn't even denigrate the concepts, except to say that the 'forgiveness' concept is associated with them.

Hope this clarifies my position. Thanks for understanding.

Joe
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 22:05:16 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: I understand more now
Message:
I understand your viewpoint a little better now, Joe. I felt that you thought all those 'concepts' were equally without merit, and am glad to learn that you don't feel that way.

BTW, probably the reason I don't know more about John Bradshaw is because we don't watch TV! Sounds like he's pretty ubiquitous on PBS. Also, regarding sociopathic people - I have personally known two people who could be possibly be regarded as sociopathic, and both of them were severely abused as children. Still, I guess the buck (and the blame) has to stop somewhere. I really do believe this, by the way. I don't try and excuse anything I do by the abuse excuse.

I do appreciate your clarification, Joe - thank you.
Katie
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 18:11:14 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Just Dysfunctionals
Subject: Bradshaw vs. Kaminer
Message:
JW wrote:

The author is Wendy Kaminer and I thought the book was helpful. I keep in on my bookshelf next to Bradshaw's epic work/dreck: 'Healing the Shame that Binds You.' She deals with the concepts
(again, they are NOT groups) of inner child, toxic parents, co-dependency, shame, etc. Regarding
Bradshaw, she states:

The therapeutic view of evil as sickness, not sin, is strong in codependency theory....'Shaming' children, calling them bad, is considered a primary form of abuse. Both guilt and
shame 'are not usefult as a way of life,' Bradshaw writes, 'Guilt makes everything harder...We need to forgive ourselves.' Someone should remind Bradshaw that there's a name for people who lack guilt and shame: sociopaths. We ought to be grateful if guilt makes things like murder and moral corruption 'harder.'
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I read this and wondered at the thinking processes of Kaminer.
Bradshaw differentiates between toxic shame which leads to
antisocial behavior and healthy shame which prevents antisocial
behavior. She appears to be either ignorant of what he wrote or
deliberately distorting what he wrote. Shame is an internalized
condition. It differs from guilt.

Guilt is a healthy reaction to something you do. It is much
like being angry at yourself. What is recommended is to recognize
the guilt, make amends, resolve not to do it again and then
forgive yourself.

As for people who are angry. That anger does not harm the other
person unless expressed violently. Maintaining a state of anger
toward someone else makes you feel bad(at least I don't enjoy it)
so the reasonable thing to do is to release the anger, perhaps
by forgiving them, so that you are not twisted by anger and
made unhappy over something they have done. I don't say to forget.

So when you feel guilt their is a component of anger towards the
self. No one says you should not feel guilt. But a person can
accumulate this guilt and anger and this is not good for other
people as well as the self. One needs to make amends etc. and
get on with their life instead of harboring this guilt and anger.

Who do you feel more threatened by? Someone with a smile or
someone with an angry scowl. Who is more likely to be antisocial?

Kraminer says:'We ought to be grateful if guilt makes murder
and moral corruption 'harder'.'

Healthy shame makes these things harder, not toxic shame.
Bradshaw does not say don't feel guilt when appropriate.
He does say carrying guilt after it has served its purpose
of changing your behavior should be released. I think Kraminer
lives her own philosophy. Which is why her thinking so distorts
what Bradshaw wrote about. I think she is a threat to mental
health and no wonder her books are on 'remainder'.

I certainly don't think Bradshaw has all the answers. But I
can't see how if Bradshaw is a 'goof' she is an improvement.

Regards,
Stephen
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 18:53:34 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: PaulR
Subject: JW's explanation.
Message:
This is a very inflexible judgement of an awful lot of people.

Has it ever occured to you that the people here in this forum might be able to learn something useful from: inner-child/abused-child/toxic-parent/Bradshaw-bullshit/I'm-dyusfunctional-you're-dysfunctional/12-step/est-like, world.


I never said that no one has gained anything useful from those things. Just like I have never said no one has gained anything useful from Maharaji's cult. There are 'useful' things to learn in about anything you do, including that what you are doing is a waste of time and you shouldn't do it again. I do think Bradshaw spouts bullshit, by and large, mainly for the consumption of the yuppies who watch PBS.

Also your explanation of my own feelings is monolithically/(sp) inaccurate.

Sorry if I misstated your feelings. I don't know what 'monolithically inaccurate' means.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:00:37 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: People or ideas
Message:
I haven't personally witnessed any of these people criticizing you on the forum for not being good enough, or for not 'forgiving' enough, or for any other beliefs that you might have. Therefore, I don't think you should group all of those experiences and/or beliefs together and imply that they are bullshit.

Katie,

Of course this was for Joe not me but I couldn't help but coment. What kind of reasoning is this? Because no one criticizes Joe's beliefs he shouldn't criticize theirs? It seems like you're saying that. are you?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:13:58 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: People or ideas
Message:
Jim, you have to read JW's whole post to get my context. It was about 'forgiveness' and how people think they are superior for 'forgiving'.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 18:19:43 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Katie
Subject: People or ideas
Message:
I haven't read all your prior posting. Just responding to this
one snippet. I don't feel 'superior' for forgiving, just better.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 19:14:40 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: People or ideas
Message:
Hi Stephen - I was talking about a post that JW made in which he referred to some people who thought that they were somehow superior because they had 'forgiven' and he hadn't. I am sure you know some people like this! (People can feel superior about anything!) I agree with you that forgiving makes the forgiver feel better - I have experienced that myself. I also think that it's a complicated issue, and that attempts to make general rules or judgements about forgiveness tend to backfire.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:03:48 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: you would like....
Message:
'King of the Hill' do you ever watch it? On Fox 830pm Sundays. Only show I watch every week if I can.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:10:44 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: you would like....
Message:
G-mom,

Sure and I do like it. I've only seen a few but the one where social services tried to apprehend the kid was hilarious. I sometimes take those kinds of cases and get a kick out of going after supercilious social workers like the guy in that episode.

But tell me, you don't watch South Park?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:15:03 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: you would like....
Message:
Guenther tried to get me to watch SouthPark once with him I could not take it. I guess i am getting too old to recognize what is cool to teens and all.

I loved, and so did my hubby, that episode with the social worker. I want to invite the writers of 'king of the hill' to that dinner party with you and Joe Degeneva.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:19:20 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: you would like....
Message:
Jim, I really like South Park. My favorite I think was the
Thanksgiving episode with Sally Struthers.
Jesus and friends is funny for us, in particular.
The rhinoplasy that gave the teacher the head of David Hasselhoff had me laughing hysterically. Maybe I have arrested adolescense too. Maybe that's why I stuck around M for so long, we were alike.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:35:04 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: G-mom and Selena
Message:
I would love to come to your dinner party. Say when. Should I bring Laurie? She doesn't eat much. Selena, have you seen the famous Christmas episode (Mr. Hankie)?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 20:01:24 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: christmas poo
Message:
Yup. I'm not much on toilet humor, but when that turd jumped
out of the toilet bowl I laughed like hell.
My favorite part of the xmas episode was Kyle's song
and the christmas play stuff. It was great. My husband
really lost it over Mr. Hanky, more than me. I'd make
a sexist statement that men like toilet humor more, but...
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:34:21 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: christmas poo
Message:
What network is Southpark on?I like King of the Hill too and Simpson's is my kids favorite. We don't get cable tv. Carol
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:50:43 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: christmas poo
Message:
South Park is on cable. It is REALLY bizarre. Very gross, but it can be funny. It is really over the top for me. When I've seen it, I laugh, but I kind of get sick at the same time.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:07:30 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: christmas poo
Message:
Hi Carol
I think SP is on Comedy Central, I know it's cable. Wednesday night at 10 I think. We don't have cable either but my friend
tapes it for me. The writers are from Boulder and I just know they know ex premies - I am going to write to them and ask them to do a guru or cult episode. - they would tear it up!!
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 00:19:10 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: guess who's coming to dinner
Message:
Is Laurie your signifigant other? Yes she would be welcome. You have never responded to say if you like or dislike or even know who Joe Degeneva is. I am curious. Of course I have never met the man it is a fantasy dinner party. I just think he and his wife Victoria Tensing (spelling?) are very fun to listen to.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:29:12 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: guess who's coming to dinner
Message:
Laurie's my girlfriend and yes, she advises, she'd happily attend. SHE knows who Joe D is and says she likes him enough. I don't know him though.

Hey, what's with the 'fantasy' thing?
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:49:40 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: pic of them...
Message:
Dear jim,
here is a pic of the other guests. Ihttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/couple022798.htmhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/couple022798.htm do not know them and doubt they will come, thus the term 'fantasy'
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:45:08 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: what pic?
Message:
G-mom,

I can't seem to make any combination of that text (adddresses?) work. Care to try again?

Thanks,

Jim
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:53:34 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: second try
Message:
http://wp4.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/couple022798.htm
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 21:13:25 (EST)
From: gsmom
Email: None
To: jim
Subject: third times a charm
Message:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/couple022798.htm
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 22:01:26 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gsmom
Subject: oh THAT guy
Message:
Hi G-mom,

Yes, I recognize him. Yeah, he's kind of neat. I just remember seeing him on Larry King a few times, Larry or Burden of Proof or something. (Hey, don't you HATE Larry by now? How many guests has he let off the hook JUST at the ripe moment? Grrr...) No, Joe and his wife look a little like Boris and Natasha.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 23:22:52 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: yes, THAT guy
Message:
LOL Boris and Natasha. I do think they are quite witty and must have a great time arguing with eachother. I think if he were an ex he would have a similar approach to yours. You are an attorney..that Burden of Proof show...Greta Van Sustern...she drives me nuts. Never saw a criminal that deserved punishment. Larry King wusses out yes. And I liked Rivera Live before it was all Clinton. That is where I first saw these two and found them so entertaining.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:30:20 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW's explanation.
Message:
Oh boy, because I often like shows on PBS, does that make me a yuppie! No I'm to old at 47 to be considered a Young upwardly- mobile professional. I used to be a Hippie and poor, but now I'm not poor. I have always hated labels including housewife, Mam, premie, ex-premie, Grandma(I like Nana better which was what my friend's was called), I don't even like the name Carol that well.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:57:12 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Not Necessarily
Message:
No, Carol, you don't have to be a yuppie to watch PBS, so it's okay. I refuse to consider myself a yuppie either.

I think PBS showing the Bradshaw programs was kind of classist, though. Usually it's people who are at least middle class who even think about that stuff. Poor people rarely sit and watch TV programs to learn about dealing with the shame they suffered as children. That's why they ran the Bradshaw stuff on PBS, which tends to have a higher-income demopgraphic. I also noticed that they often ran them during fundraising drives. Wonder why? Wonder what the demographics is on people who watch Bradshaw.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 18:13:47 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PaulR
Subject: clarify?
Message:
Please may I apologise for my comment '. . . GM's directive.'

That was a low blow derived from my experience as a debator which is a verbal form of war, which is inappropriate in this forum.

Also:
As a simple response to your many posts, I say to you we must all measure our own responsibility in our participation in GM's scheme.


PaulR,

Which commetn was that? I can't find it. Was it the 'nothing you say is anything but rubbish' post? Something like that? I don't mean to be impolite but I get a lot of insults now and then. It's hard for me to give them all the attention they deserve. Nothing personal. :)

PaulR,

I'm troubled by your disavowal of 'debate' as a useful mechanism here. Debate is the one thing we DIDN'T have in the cult that we sorely lacked. We had all the warm, soft sincerity in the world and look where it got us. No, I'll take a little argumeant any day of the week, so long as it's honest.

As for our own responsibility, sure, you're right. I gave heavy satsang to a lot of people. When my friend Steve left the ashram in 1974 I gave him all sorts of heavy satsang (of course I myself left for a stint a few months later!). But I didn't know any better! I was tricked.

Really, I'm more than happy to take whatever responsibility I have for perpetuating this ugly nonsense but, problem is, I think it's all Maharaji's. It's like this, if you believe the Mishler interview, it's all right there. Maharaji knew after Jonestown, if not earlier, that it was wrong to fuck with peoples' naivite.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 05:40:18 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@hol.fr
To: Everyone
Subject: RAWAT READ THIS
Message:
I finally understood something.
Something that really hurted me whilst I was your
faithful devotee.
Your philosophy and all the belief you created in me
made me very arrogant and egocentric.
Before knowing you, I was a loving person,
loving with a real love - not the love YOU call real
and which is nothing but a dream.
I used to express my real feelings to my friends
and to people around me.

And I am still a loving person.

But you transformed me, like you did with so many,
in some arrogant ‘premie’, loving his master and nobody else.
I’ve suffered of this, because instead of expressing my love
to others, I directed ALL my love towards you,
thinking you deserved it.
I still felt love to people around me,
but couldn’t express it as I should have.
Doing this has been VERY painful and harmful for me,
and created a lot of anger in me.

YOU DON’T deserve any reverence.
You are nothing but a fucking arrogant prick,
excuse my French,
not practicing what you teach.

May I recall that you claim teaching love ?

You don’t teach ANYTHING,
but how to cheat on others.

You don’t do anything but cheating :
cheating on those believing in you
cheating on your family
cheating on law.

You’re not the kind of person deserving ANY love
from ANYBODY.

Maybe you do, as any human being,
and this will happen when you’ll step off your throne,
and publicly apologize for all your lies and arrogance.
Maybe you do deserve love, as any creature,
and God still loves you,
in spite of your treason.
His love is infinite indeed, but you have to deserve it,
in order to be able to feel it.

You keep repeating this yourself,
not listening to what you’re saying,
not applying what you preach to your own life.
The only accountant on earth
is what you do to other human beings,
in real life - which is not according to your definition,
don’t mistake me.

It is written in Koran that « all the good you’re doing
is benefiting you, but all the wrong is against yourself ».
The quote might not be exactly right in English,
I know it in French only.
All the wrong you are doing is hurting you,
all the people you call ‘your enemies
are YOUR creation.
Don’t misunderstand me : I’m not saying I’m your creature,
I’m saying you’ve hurted me,
and now you think I am your enemy.
In that sense, you’ve created something for yourself : enemies.
That’s what you think I am.
That’s maybe what you think
some of YOUR ex-premies are.

I’m not anybody’s enemy,
I’m warning my friends and other human beings companions
that you’re a big danger for naïve people like me
- were are so many.
There maybe dangers bigger than you,
that doesn’t diminish your potential for harm.

Understanding all this has been very helpful for me.
I had to go through that process in order to
understand where those wrong and bad feelings
were coming from.
And Why.

I took vows when I asked for your ‘knowledge’,
I renewed them quite a few times later.
But these vows were destined to a person you are not.

I’m not betraying you : you betrayed me,
luring me in the belief you are something
YOU ARE NOT.
And you did this consciously,
which worsen your case.

That’s why I have every right to say
what I’m saying.

That’s why I have every right to disclose
your techniques that don’t belong to you in the first place,

that’s why I decided to explain in details how you entrapped
faithful and naïve aspirants,

that’s why I decided to explain how YOU cheat.

That’s why I decided to disclose everything I knew
about you and YOUR organization.

You betrayed me, and I have every right to explain
why and how to anybody who needs to know.

More than this, it’s a necessity for me !
How could I explain to my relatives and to my friends
why I’ve spent 25 years of my life believing in something
that’s total BS.
I had and I have to justify this, and explain how deceitful YOU are.

Acknowledging one’s own mistakes makes you
greater, makes you a better person.

I hope you’ll read this.
I won’t pay for a stamp to mail it,
I have already spent too much for you.
Any of those ‘PAM’ reading this Forum’s posts
will forward it to you, I hope anyway.

Jean-Michel Kahn
146 Avenue Jean Jaurès
75019 Paris
jmkahn@hol.fr
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 06:15:35 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: RAWAT READ THIS
Message:
Nice one Jean-Michel. After reading about Maharaji calling us all his enemies, I realised that Maharaji doesn't give a shit about any of his followers.

If there was such a thing as a 'Guru' or 'Master' then surely he would be honour bound to help his followers, even if they disagreed with him or turned against him. That surely would be the standard that this mythical being would have to adhere to.

Maharaji's comment that he has enemies but has more friends that enemies, illustrates exactly how he sees people. He only sees them in relation to himself and how they affect him. That is not somebody experiencing unconditional love. That's somebody experiencing conditional love. So he really is no different or better than anyone else and he really has nothing to teach. So he has absolutely no right to call himself a master, teacher, Hari or anything. I think people are realising this now.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:55:11 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: interesting
Message:
i find it interesting that people on this website are all excited that Maharaji considers them his enemies when he never said, to my knowledge, that you here were who he was even talking about.

i know you are hoping he was speaking of you, but i personally don't even assume that. he could easily have been referring to someone else.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:04:39 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: frontline.media@virgin.net
To: red heart
Subject: interesting
Message:
True, red heart. M could be referring to anyone when he talks about 'enemies'. It's good his way has been fulfilling for you. It works for some, it doesn't work for everyone. There are more ways to the well of love within than there are people on this planet.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 09:01:24 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: red heart
Subject: interesting
Message:
No Red Heart, I wasn't hoping he was talking about us. If he was then it's rather sad isn't it. But let's face it, we're not exactly his friends, are we.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:51:20 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: RAWAT READ THIS
Message:
I'm constantly amazed to watch people unfold here. And the most amazing part for me is that they do it entirely themselves. I suppose it only stands to reason that as much as embracing Maharaji's simplistic views of life can cause people to stop growing as individuals (and to become stuck in the childish role of aligning their choices to own selfish desires), it only stands to reason that throwing off those beliefs and making our choices in our own self-interest would allow us to continue to grow. But still, the rate of personal growth is stunning to see.

I was also surprised to hear that Maharaji would refer to people who publicly dump him as enemies, and I agree with you that it only further shows how incompetent he is as a 'teacher'. A REAL teacher would understand that any student's inability to grasp REAL knowledge (how to read, etc) would reflect on the teacher - not the student. Were Maharaji actually empowered to do more in life than wallow in money, sit above those who gave it to him, and expound on his own personal greatness, then he would also be able to accept responsibility for his failings as a teacher/master of anything worth learning in the first place. But he is completely incompetent at that too.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:01:41 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: personal growth of what?
Message:
yeah, i see some things 'growing' here too.

i have become to learn to be a self expressive person with Maharaji's help. i used to be too afraid of people, too afraid of a world that gave me more pain than i could tolerate.

but Maharaji can only help those who have already found a certain amount of freedom for themselves. he really can't help people who are addicted to the very things which will keep them from their own inner Joy.

no words can express how much he has given me and how much it has meant to me.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:51:25 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: shouldn't bother reading that
Message:
it's blatant bullshit, J-M. it's the faithful ego in you, no 'faithful devotee' that acted out such a hateful and repressed existence, and it was nothing that Maharaji taught you.

i've been around just as long as you have, and he taught me the difference between real love and conditional love. he taught me how to find that well of love within. before i could really draw upon that well within, i couldn't love anybody -- i was too needy!

because he showed me the way to the real love within, i have become someone capable of giving much more love, and do give much more love, than i could have ever dreamed possible.

i thank Maharaji every day. and it's not enough. no thanks will ever be enough for how he has given me my self. and it just keeps getting better and better, just like he said it would.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 09:39:21 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: a master SHOULD bother!
Message:
.... reading this! IMHO.

I assume he does! Because he is worried of what's going to develop...

it's blatant bullshit, J-M. it's the faithful ego in you, no 'faithful devotee' that acted out such a hateful and repressed existence, and it was nothing that Maharaji taught you.

I’m really sorry to say you’re totally wrong ! Rawat himself chose me to be an instructor.
I went through all the process, the exam, and graduated.
Plus : I don’t have any ‘hateful existence’ ! How can you say something like this !
I have friends and relative, they say I’m a great loving person.
I feel anger towards PPR because he cheated on me. That is absolutely normal I guess.

i've been around just as long as you have, and he taught me the difference between real love and conditional love.

That is foreign language. There is only ONE kind of love. Whether it has conditions or not is not relevant.
PPR calls it ‘unconditional’ because he will never say IMAGINARY, which is in fact the nature of what he is talking about !

he taught me how to find that well of love within. before i could really draw upon that well within, i couldn't love anybody -- i was too needy!

OK. Fine. You had a problem, not being able to love. Now you feel it : GREAT. Learn how to love other people and beings also. PPR doesn’t deserve it all !

because he showed me the way to the real love within,

The mere fact you feel something ‘inside’ doesn’t make it ‘real’ ! Dreams are as real as your ‘real’ love.
Now think a bit of what dreams are. Manifestation of some inside drive ?

i have become someone capable of giving much more love, and do give much more love, than i could have ever dreamed possible.

How do you do that, I mean practically ? Day to day ?

i thank Maharaji every day. and it's not enough. no thanks will ever be enough for how he has given me my self. and it just keeps getting better and better, just like he said it would.

Again. What is the reality of what you feel ? How does it manifest in your day to day life ?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:13:58 (EST)
From: premieJi
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: a master SHOULD bother!
Message:
Jean Michel,

What's your problem JM? Just because you don't have a job
as an instructor ? Would you be saying all this hateful stuff if you were still an instructor?

You sound like you are cracking up to me. Not a happy person at all. If you don't want M. in your life, fine. Why not just take off to Tahiti or somewhere and enjoy the sun.

I know some nice people there . Not much chance of M. coming either.

bon chance
premieJi
sailed to Papeete in '91
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 22:39:34 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: I versus i, red heart
Message:
I think it's very interesting and revealing that when you talk about yourself you always use a lower case letter-'i'. Even 'red heart' is not capitalized. When you begin to share a new thought of yours with us (sentence) you don't use capitals either.

Is there some hidden meaning in this? I know that your shift key is intact because 'Maharaji' is always capitalized in your posts.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:43:58 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: I versus i, red heart
Message:
hehe, well there are two very obscure reasons, one being my having logged onto here first as red heels, in reference to being a submissive in sexual role play. many subs get in the habit of typing just about everything in lower case, and i tried it and found that it is much easier to type when you don't have to mess with the caps key...and i always capitalize Maharaji because i love and respect him so much...and i like the way typing everything else in lower case adds emphasis to whatever i do choose to capitalize.

as far as the lower case i in referring to myself, i wish it were that easy to get the ego humbled...! big egos are not fun for me or you.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:01:02 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: frontline.media@virgin.net
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: RAWAT READ THIS
Message:
Jean-Michel, interesting that you quote from the Qur'an since I have been reading it and praying (as best I can) for about a year now. The purity I feel when close to Islam and to the creator, the source, the cause of causes,is something that M could never compare to. Although all of my premie friends, being totally ignorant about Islam have advised me to 'get back on the path'. M says follow your heart. My heart has led me to islam, although i have not said shahada yet, and may never do. Best wishes to you. Keep reading.
Becky
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:06:15 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: is fine
Message:
nothing wrong with following other paths. Maharaji tells you to follow all the other paths and if you don't find what you are looking for, he is there. no problem.

there is no way you could get from a book what Maharaji has shown me and so many others. i hear a lot of ''sour grapes'' from people who can't get real, refuse to get real.

but what you are getting, this is what you are satisfied with, that is your choice. enjoy.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:16:55 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: padded.cell@asylum.com
To: red heart
Subject: Yes GET REAL you guys
Message:
How wonderful to hear you telling people here to 'get real'. Your realness comes across loud and clear. I bet Milky Cole told his wife to GET REAL after she was raped and nearly murdered. What a wonderful instruction to give. Of course, she was too ignorant to listen to such wise advice from her great devotee husband. That must be why she commited suicide.

How beautiful to see how well you have it all sewn up here. You clearly come across as a most superior person. These ex-premies are fools not to heed your wise council.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 14:12:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Becky
Subject: BECKY READ THIS
Message:
I can't believe a nice girl liek you would even think of taking an ugly old cult like islam seriously. (Oh oh! I said it now, I guess. Cancel my visa for Tehran. No more public appearances either, I guess.) Do you know anything about how that religion started? Do you care? Are you looking for the truth?

Jim

Hey, if you like, please email me.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 08:30:45 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ISLAM
Message:
Jim. I've e-mailed you. Would be interested to find out what you know of islam. The west has such a crooked idea of it.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:41:47 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: ISLAM
Message:
Becky,

I didn't see this post before I answered your email. Now that it's clear you'd like to know what I think of it I'll tell you later today. One thing, though, I think it's much truer to say that Islam, like all religions, promotes a much more 'crooked idea' of itself than the simple historical read. MUCH more.

So, it depends, if you go to the religion for its history, no matter what religion, you're just going to get a pack of lies for the most part. ISLAM is one of the greatest examples of that sad truth I'm aware of.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 14:25:20 (EST)
From: NDYW
Email: indieyaweh@hotmail.com
To: Becky
Subject: Go stand in the corner...
Message:
and don't come out until you understand you are stepping out of one straightjacket into another.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:21:51 (EST)
From: Gail M.
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: RAWAT READ THIS
Message:
I don't know you, but I love you! Wow!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 09:28:30 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: RAWAT READ THIS
Message:
Dear Jean-Michel,
I've read this whole thread and then came back to you to respond. I am in awe really and as Brian said it is totally amazing and inspiring to watch each of you find the site, get strong and sure and seperate yourselves from BM. So often, as is now the case I am filled with emotions that words can not express and I just have a huge urge to hug everyone here, except red heart whose posts I don't read and just click past them to get to the next. To me they are like venom. Only if and when I see ex's responses that tell me the premie is not venomous do I read there posts.
I accept venom from ex's because they have reason for it and it is a big part of their healing.
You have seemed so strong and sure to me but this post has made you seem vunerable and that draws me in. I have had great respect for you from the begining of your time here but I am a nurturer by nature and you didn't seem to need much nurturing.
I wish you all the best in all of your life and am so happy you and so many others, including myself, have found this site and that it has help each of us, as Brian said, to help ourselves in this pool of support.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:03:42 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: RAWAT READ THIS
Message:
Dear Jean-Michel -
What an amazing and wonderful post! Gail already said it, but I'll repeat it: I love you! (Je t'aime.)

Thanks for your post.
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:39:00 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: too much love!
Message:
2 of you love me, + robyn, this is tooooooo much!

I can't give so much love ...... yet.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 11:10:26 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: too much love!
Message:
Dear Jean-Michel,
We will be waiting patiently! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 08:34:52 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: too much love!
Message:
I was think exactly the same: I love Jean-Michel
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 08:38:47 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: too much love!2
Message:
PS Great you can say these things without losing face here. Actually I'm embarrassed now.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 14:00:19 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: RAWAT READ THIS
Message:
YOU DON’T deserve any reverence.
You are nothing but a fucking arrogant prick,
excuse my French,
not practicing what you teach.


Too funny. JM, I can see that you're on the road to forgiveness and for that I give thanks. No, really, I shouldn't joke. It's just, comment est-ce qu'on dit?, fucking exciting and exhilarating to read one another get up off the ground after that long, long, too-long pranam. I love you, man. Thanks.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 15:43:48 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: J.M.= REAL -great soul- MAN
Message:
J.M.

You have said it so well.

I heard a definition of a psycopath on the radio and I was
amazed because it fit rawat perfectly.

I thought Narcissist fit the best but really he is a psycopath.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 06:56:07 (EST)
From: premieJi
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: bb fruitloop
Message:
bill Burke,

You 're the only psycopath around here buddy.

premieJi
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 10:35:02 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: premieJi
Subject: bb fruitloop
Message:
Now that's funny. Bill Burke, a psychopath!!! What planet are you from brother?
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 05:53:02 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: r2harris@plymouth.ac.uk
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: RAWAT READ THIS
Message:
Thanks JM,

you speak for me too. Sometimes my anger is so great that I cannot find the eloquence to express myself. Today is one of those days. So I read your message and simply say, me too.

Thanks

Richard
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 01:17:14 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: pondering...
Message:
I was driving today. I do an awful lot of that...thinking about the board conversation. I was thinking ( am I ever mindy) about the' do you remember this big wig' string. Since ya'll are so insightful about our former subculture I thought I would ask this.

What characteristics did those who became mucky mucks with Rawat share?

Here are some of my thoughts:
had a skill he needed..pilot, chef, tailor.....coctail waitress?

had charactersitics of court jester....

Had $$$$$ probably #1 ?

Some of the ones I met though had sort of unique personalities. I almost felt they were a little LESS subservient than the rest of us. A little more into themselves and getting their own needs met. A lot more likely to think the rules were not meant for them.

I was never one of these people. Good thing too as I would imagine you have an even harder time leaving once part of the inner circle and I will bet those that do are a little more afraid to speak their minds ( ha ha).I met lots of them and i was just thinking about it. Anyone care to speculate?
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:25:39 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: pondering...
Message:
This is hard to say. I think ambition was certainly one characteristic. In my experience, people got coveted service positions more by who they knew than anything else. Since BM didn't give a shit about any of us, he had to rely on others to pick people to perform certain functions. Certainly certain skills were needed, but not many premies had them, but not many skills were needed anyway.

I'm absolutely sure that how fervently and completely you practiced knowledge, or loved BM, or were 'surrendered' had zippo to do with it. Those people just tended to rot away in the ashrams. The intiators were a little different in that regard. Some real weirdos got picked for THAT job. I mean real looney tunes.

I agree that these people tended to be less subservient. They almost had to be to promote themselves to get the positions and to 'network' with the right people. Lots of social climbing in DLM. A lot of highly incompetent people, especially among community coordinators and IHQ staff, and I know, I was among the most incompetent.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:17:18 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: pondering...
Message:
thanks you for not letting my post rot as boring as my question might have been.... I think you are right, social climbing might be the big factor.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 16:17:39 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: pondering...
Message:
Hey G-Mom -
It wasn't a boring post at all. I think you just needed an attention-grabbing title. People on here get pretty jaded. (Have you ever tried to get Brian to read a post or an e-mail? You have to make the title very provocative...)

BTW, I was young (16 to 21) when I was in DLM, so never was a big wig and never knew any of them well. I think JW is probably right though, judging from the people I knew. I forget if he said this, but many of them seemed to have held leadership positions before they became premies.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:39:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: pondering...
Message:
G-mom,

(It's 'G-mom' by the way.) I think it's a great question. I'm just not sure what the answer is, if there is one. I know some people rose to prominence the hard way, as steady, non-joking drones. They had a leg up if they had some sort of formal education or background (so many of us were so young and uneducated back when I got involved in '38. Mind you, that was in the midsts of the depression. It was hard for anyone to find wervice then). Others just really looked good, there was some of that. Others, probably the majority, piggybacked on friedns who wee already getting somewhere in the organization (I tried to do that but kept slipping off!).

I tihnk that about covers it. Oh, I almsot forgot, ... grace. That's a fourth explanation.

As for their level of subservience, I think that's more a question of effect rather than cause.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 00:30:32 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: subservience
Message:
(No red heart...this is not the type of subservient post you were hoping...)

So you are saying you think being around rawat made them less subservient? Would that be because they felt oh so much more important having been around him or because after being around him their view of him changed? I still think that it was that very quality of not giving up their identities the way so many premies did that may have made these people more interesting to Rawat. Imagine how boring it would be to have people agree with you all the time and sort of cowering around you. I think it would get old. Oh I think he liked them to do what he wanted..but I think, the little I know, he wanted people who would sort of amuse him and perhps even guide him without it being obvious. And I think being a good premie tended to make you a pretty boring person.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 13:34:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: Yeah
Message:
G-mom,

I agree with all you said and what Jethro said too. I kind of regret I wasn't up close just because I'd be able to write a great book now and actually cash in on this thing.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 04:21:58 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: cadbury@compuserve.com
To: G's mom
Subject: pondering...
Message:
Hi G's mom

'Some of the ones I met though had sort of unique personalities. I almost felt they were a little LESS subservient than the rest of us. A little more into themselves and getting their own needs met. A lot more likely to think the rules were not meant for them.'

Well put, it's almost like they were allowed to be themselves and hold on to their personalities. They were usually shit-scared around 'Him'.
I always remember in 1974 after a festival there was one premie who couldn't live without agya 'about what to do next', so he nagged and nagged and eventually prempal said 'ok go to Italy, Ron'. When Jon came to the room instead of being blissful about having gotten agya he said 'What a ridiculous agya' and was shouting all over the place.(btw he never went to Italy)
A story Ron told me to illistrate that any connection with the perfect one must be accepted and treasured, was that when he was with Gary Gerrard in the early days in india with prempal, prempal broke Gary's nose with a stick, and was clearly hurt, prempal turned around and said , '..well, would you rather I didn't touch you?'.
I have no idea if the story is true, but it is interesting how Jon was trying to teach this 'ordinary premie' what devotion is.

Sorry of this is a bit disconnected....just remebring what a fool I was to drink that stuff.

Jethro
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 23:48:13 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: ATTENTION ASPIRANTS!!!!
Message:
And now a word from our sponsor...

Don Pardo's voice:

'Do you want to know the secret of Knowledge? The techniques that Maharaji teaches? You don't have to attend a single video event, take any vows or even give darshan!!!

You, too, can be a virtual premie. It's great. No programs to attend. Save your money and go where you want to on your next trip!

Meditate (or not) as much or as little as you want to. There's no obligation!

Send no money now! Save for your children's education or for a rainy day!

Retain your freedom and privacy. No one will call or visit your home (to tell you that you are watching inappropriate videos.)

But Wait, there's more!! Avoid devotion to another human being.

Best of all, YOU get to decide the meaning of life. You can think about things and discuss them with other people and have your own opinion. You get to decide what (if anything) the knowledge techniques mean to you...

Sound Interesting???? It's simple. Just follow these step by step instructions:

1) Go to the 'Nuts and Bolts' link on this site
2) Click on 'The Knowledge Session'
3) Read and Think (it is written by a BM ex-initiator!)
4) Practice IF you want to.
5) Contact Sir David if you still have any questions or start a thread on the forum if you still need help.
6) Go to David Stirling's knowledge page for additional help

Remember, act now before this offer expires. And now we return to our regularly scheduled program...'

VP
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:13:23 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: ATTENTION ASPIRANTS!!!!
Message:
Thanks VP , I will go there now.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 09:22:19 (EST)
From: premieJi
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: ATTENTION ASPIRANTS!!!!
Message:
Hey VP,

Being a virtual premie would be as satisfying as cardboard food or sex by correspondence.

Trying to find some co-respondents are we?

I'm sorry, VP, but you haven't got a clue. Sadly, you think you do.

premieJi
played piano for the Lord '97
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:11:04 (EST)
From: Johnji
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: premieJi
Subject: ATTENTION ASPIRANTS!!!!
Message:
Dear Lord's piano player:

How do you know the techniques without M would be like cardboard sex?
Hey, I've tried the techniques both ways. They work the same with or without the baggage of M obsession..
Last night I started crying reading a story to my daughter. Why? Because I felt overhwleming love for that power that created this incredible universe and put me in it.
Yeah, I know, I'm a helluva sensitive guy, but my only point is that love for god is love for god is love for god. Really!!! Your love for god is no better than my love for god just because you happen to call your god M!
The worst thing about spiritual fanatics is their arrogance in thinking that somehow what they've got is 'special' and 'unique' and that the rest of us as you put it 'don't have a clue'.

John
rejoined the human race in '82
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:33:11 (EST)
From: premieJi
Email: None
To: Johnji
Subject: ATTENTION ASPIRANTS!!!!
Message:
JohnJi,

I don't think VP has ever accepted M. as his teacher. I knew some of the techniques before hearing of M. and they gave a nice experience.

Being involved in the triad of master\knowledge\me has awakened a vastly more rich experience, both internally and externally.

M's presence, when you have the 'eyes' to really see and feel it
is something way beyond imagination.

premieJi
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 14:15:50 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: premieJi
Subject: ATTENTION ASPIRANTS!!!!
Message:
M's presence, when you have the 'eyes' to really see and feel it is something way beyond imagination.

Dropping in for a few minutes to read. Had to post one

RE: M's presence - ick!!! barf!!!!
Not the most intelligent statement but then neither is the one I am commenting on. Eyes in my head or any other tangible or intangible place, will indeed see something I never would imagine. A creepy arrogant dude with arrested adolescence who thinks he has some power, who demands my whole being and gives me back the divine presence a few times a year 'If I Want' to go and if I am willing to pay travel and lodging. Thanks but no cigar. M's presence, sheesh. Worst argument yet. At least the one about 'The Experience' is harder to argue since brainwashing can be a subtle thing. Watching him preen and yell ain't so subtle. Give it up, you are missing the basic lessons in persuation - know your audience!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 15:54:03 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: ATTENTION ASPIRANTS!!!!
Message:
Selena,
That's beautiful; really got me laughing. Glad you didn't go away.
Rick
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:06:58 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: red_heart@hotmail.com
To: premieJi
Subject: premieJi is right
Message:
the Knowledge/Student/Master is a wonderful and beautiful and extremely human dynamic.

so very odd to have someone post that they 'rejoined' the human race as if to imply that students of Maharaji are not members of the human race.

but such is the state of mud-slinging that goes on around here. it really gives this website a shrill and unpleasant atmosphere. not surprisingly.

there is no replacement for listening to the Master. his words are like a polishing cloth on my heart, my mind, my soul. and the rest from my 'chatterbox in my head' when I practice is very satisfying. it's wonderful to learn and experience and know that my true self is much more beautiful than my mind could ever 'think up.'

it is such a close relationship, because remembering Maharaji reminds me to go inside my own heart and feel that magic, the Magic of Life. it is beautiful.

i feel thankful to have found Maharaji, and grateful to him for the effort he makees through for the sake of those who are thirsty for that Real Love. I can never thank him enough.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 11:04:09 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: premieJi
Subject: to VP
Message:
those tactics of trying to make you feel alienated and out of touch will be tried on by so many VP. Don't listen, sweet-heart. You know more about life and love than most, I'm sure of that.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 18:42:14 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Thanks, Judex
Message:
You are so astute to point out those tactics, Judex! They show premieji's hostility...

And his/her superior attitude. But that was the whole point of my post. The secrets M presents aren't superior and they are free and available for anyone who wants them. Now if someone is looking to hide from their life or devote to Maharaji...the techniqes alone are of no help. That is for sure. But they are what they are-meditation. SO HUNG!

Sorry to disappoint ole premieji, but I have an abundance of self confidence today.

VP
Know love when I see it
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 14:21:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: premieJi
Subject: ATTENTION premie-ji!!!
Message:
Premie-ji,

I've talked with a few long-time followers of Satpal Rawat(aka Bal Bhagwan Ji, dba Guru Maharaj Ji). Well, two to be exact. One is his coordinator in Rugby,England. He's a mature guy, nice, polished and cordial. Also sounded like a 'no-nonsense' kind of fellow. The other is the 22 year-old keepr of the Satpal 'Maharaj Ji' page. He's an accountant, intelligent as well.

Neither of these guys had ever even heard of Satpal's youngest brother.

The Rugby guy, in particular, spoke eloquently about the love and devotion he feels for his master who, he claims, has shown him the 'knowledge of all knowledges', the path to realization, etc. What would you tell him? Would you tell him that he doesn't have the 'true' knowledge and is, in the colloquial, merely 'fucking a blow up doll'?

This is a very simple, straighforward question. I'd appreciate an honest and full answer, thank you very much.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 03:43:11 (EST)
From: premieJi
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ATTENTION premie-ji!!!
Message:
Jim,
The Rugby guy, in particular, spoke eloquently about the love and devotion he feels for his master who, he claims, has shown him the 'knowledge of all knowledges', the path to realization, etc. What would you tell him? Would you tell him that he doesn't have the 'true' knowledge and is, in the colloquial, merely 'fucking a blow up doll'?

This is a very simple, straighforward question. I'd appreciate an honest and full answer, thank you very much.


Since you've asked without insulting at the same time, I'll try to answer.

First, what I said to him would depend a great deal on how open he was to talk about the issue and so on. I think I'd be interested in asking him about his experience of practicing the techniques, what he experienced being around Satpal etc.
I know that I can learn something from anyone, and this guy may well have something I could learn from.

At the same time, because I would to some extent have the jump
historically on him I would make some effort to point out my historical view of things and if he was interested I would relate my experiences with him.

If he said why not come to see Satpal for yourself, I'd definitely make an effort. I wouln't fly to India or something though. Similarly, I'd invite him to see M. Maybe show him a video with Shri Hans and M. in it.

So I wouldn't try to TELL him anything unless he really wanted to know. No more than I'd try to tell a committed Christian that
they were 2000 years too late. If he was happy doing his thing, and showed no interest in what I might say about M. then what could I do anyway? We might end up agreeing to disagree.
Who knows?
As for blow up dolls, well if you believe the French jokes about English women being boring in bed, perhaps these poms would prefer the doll anyway!

premieJi
crossed the English channel loads of times
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:33:49 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: premieJi
Subject: another polite post
Message:
premieji,

Let's see how long we can keep this up. (I think we've already set a record.) If the Satpal devotee asked you if you wee 'open' to the possibility that he's got the same wonderful 'Knowledge' that you've got, what would you tell him? Yes or no?

Respectfuly yours,

Jim
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 18:24:12 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: premieJi
Subject: Clueless-not
Message:
premiji,

You asked, 'Trying to find some co-respondents are we?'

Nah, I was just responding to Becky's post about the techniques below. I figured I'd bring it here because it was about to go under. This thing is moving fast lately.

I understand the devotional thing better than you think. I reject it completely. John's answer says it all for me.

Thanks for pointing out my sad delusion, but I am feeling just fine, thank you. :)

VP
Rejects devotion to Maharaji '98
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 08:28:42 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: brothers & sisters
Message:
It would be good, if in talking about M,that we refrain from insulting or being sarcastic to premies or non-premies, since it makes it incredibly sad that we are ending up throwing punches because of one man.
Premieji respect to you as my brother/sister.
Just one question: what will you do when M dies, and what do you think aspirants down the line will do once he is gone?
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:19:43 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: brothers & sisters
Message:
Becky - I've been on both sides of that one. Interesting thing is, the time I was the one trying to make someone 'be nice' (poor Robyn!!!) it was because I was feeling awful about myself and
overwhelmed by things going on in my life. I have learned a lot by my little mommy act a few weeks ago, and have decided that I am MUCH more comfortable letting people be as they are. Unless they are premies gushing crap and telling me or one of us how to be. They come to an ex-premie site and post nonsense about M's presence, - well, they are asking for it, plain and simple.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 07:46:03 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: love and fear
Message:
i was thinking about what i posted yesterday... how with Maharaji i do not feel fear and guilt... and this morning, pondering and delving into my feelings, i had to acknowledge something... where there is real love, yes, the heart trembles...it feels like fear... yes, he makes my heart tremble... but it is a kind of fear that has nothing to do with guilt... it's a kind of fear like a volt of electricity running through me...and he is so important to me. there is fear, there is love, there is a trembling excitement... it is beautiful. only in the really really deep and closest love have i ever felt this sensation. it is scary and it is exhilarating. it is so alive and so real and interactive and so deep.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 08:31:29 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: love and fear
Message:
There may be a healthy role for fear in life, but the kind of scarey stories that Maharaji used to slip into his satsangs (ie.If you don't practise you will suffer the cumulatative smell of many rotting vegetables etc) surely represent a more sinister role for that emotion. I maintain that Maharaji's satsangs were often highly effective in engendering exactly that sort of fear and guilt of which you say:

but it is a kind of fear that has nothing to do with guilt.

Furthermore the testimonies of many who have written to this forum within the last year or so confirm that his words have indeed engendered considerable fear and guilt, in a manner which hardly matches your experience. I know you are trying to present the other side of the coin as it were, but please bear in mind that someone who has employed such language in order to effectively gain power over individuals should not be lightly excused, however alluring the accompagnying experience of 'love' may be.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:44:03 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: love and fear
Message:
well, if you have to have healthy vegetables to experience the best in life...

i can understand about the sensitivity folks feels about the rotting vegetables. i mean, if i didn't take a bath for three months and someone was talking about how people who don't bathe, well, they stink, i could get really offended. god forbid i should take a bath.

as a matter of fact, i was one of the people who felt really bad about the rotting vegetables. it made me mad at him and think of him as hard and unkind. until i started practicing again and listening again. it's all relative to where you're at. but really, the teacher must warn the students of pitfalls. otherwise, what kind of a teacher is he? not a very helpful one.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:18:57 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: come on, red heart
Message:
Hey red heart,

This is no way to discuss things. You said M does not make you feel guilt. Then Anon pointed out an example of where Maharaji did just that (I posted another one below that's much worse. See 'That's so dumb'). Then you start spouting this nonsense above. Come on, act like an adult. You sneak up to the point when you say:

as a matter of fact, i was one of the people who felt really bad about the rotting vegetables. it made me mad at him and think of him as hard and unkind

Admit, then, that you were wrong in the first place and that Maharaji has indeed said things that have engendered guilt in you.

Let's be honest, alright?
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 22:39:43 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: come on, Jim
Message:
he said things. i felt guilt...but not forever. and he didn't say it for the purpose of guilt,but for the purpose which i didn't 'get' 'til much later, and that is that I needed to practice. so easy to get high just off the service and satsang and not practice, and i did that a lot. he was letting me know that that is not enough. i made myself feel guilty; he did not make me feel guilty. is that really so hard to understand now?
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:11:52 (EST)
From: Be non
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: love and fear
Message:
I hardly think 'The smell of rotting vegetables' is going to make too many people lose any sleep. If that's the worst thing he said let's all go back.Be none 'The Wiser'
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:20:55 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Be non
Subject: how about this, Be non?
Message:
Is THIS going to make anyone lose any sleep?:

'This fly was broken; in the same way, the mind has to be broken. First of all, man has to close his carnal outer dorrs so that he may concentrate his heart on his devotion. Devotion is the stick, and with his devotion and meditation he has to kill this crazy damn fly. In the sme way, mind, too, is strong; it is very big. To a man it seems very pretty, but of course it is a fly.

In the same way, our minds in this age of darkness are very strong. The will of this world is so strong. Really it is something that you cannot bear. When the holy man leaves, you are lost. And then these evil powers start acting upon you, and this illusion, which is itself darkness, comes and puts a black sheet over you. Now where to go? Where to go? Where is the path?'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 22:42:43 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: how about this, Be non?
Message:
i don't see any guilt there either, Jim. (never heard of this quote before)
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:29:30 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Be non
Subject: love and fear
Message:
Hang on there, Be non; the analogy of rotting vegetables symbolizes a person's spiritual state. Maharaji's warning about rotting vegetables means that if you stop following him, you're soul will rot. This, my friend, is a lot to lose sleep over, if it's true. Fortunately, it isn't true, and one can leave the Guru without any consequence. But when a follower hasn't done this yet, their programmed mind has the fear of God in them, from what Maharaji has warned them about. The Guru's warnings are all lies.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:32:25 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Be non
Subject: the rotten vegetables
Message:
He didn't say it was just the smell of rotting vegetables. He said that if you received knowledge and didn't practice it, it was like buying three tons of vegetables and not eating them. They would rot, and, similarly, the knowledge would rot inside of you.

This quote (threat) scared the shit out of me and kept me as an unwilling follower of M for longer than I wanted to be. I felt that I had 'received' something from M - that he had put the Knowledge inside me, and that I would go nuts just as he had threatened if I didn't practice it.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 10:00:57 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: love and fear
Message:
Maybe you should change your name to Red Fart.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:31:25 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: love and fear
Message:
red heart:

I think there's a paradox here. I believe it is the unreality of this relationship which makes it seem so real and alive. It is all your own projection. There is no real person with whom you're interacting. Do you sit down with M and talk about your experience and life? Does he give you feedback and share with you? (this is true with many spiritual teachers). Because of this pseudo relationship, much like having a relationship with Jesus, that you can make it, and him, anything you want.

The fact that it is unreal can make it particularly 'exhilarating and deep.' The is no real person doing any of the imperfect things that real people do that annoy, anger or test our love on a day to day basis. And it's a particularly subtle paradox because, after all, there is a M, and he sits there in front of you at programs talking to you, so it must be real.

The good news is that all those nice feelings are within you and can be experienced without relying on a fantasy relationship created by your own projections. But this may create a real fear and scaryness for you, because real people and life can't be controlled like our projections.

Paul
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 22:46:57 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: love and fear
Message:
sorry, just not true. what Maharaji gives is True, is incredible, and gets better and better the more I delve into it. is beyond anything my mind could concoct, beyond what i could imagine. is so beautiful. is real. really real. the intellect cannot grasp it, just can't be done.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:19:25 (EST)
From: King David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: red heart
Subject: love and fear
Message:
Bullshit.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:50:18 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: King David
Subject: Question
Message:
David:

Did you really let Saul off with just a warning?

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 15:21:27 (EST)
From: King David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Question
Message:
Sure did. One of more benevolent days. Mind you, Goliath didn't know what hit him!
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:43:04 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: love and fear
Message:
Even if fear does not engender guilt (which, in BM's case I fervently disagree) it's just as bad. So, you practice knowledge, and refuse to doubt BM, out of fear but not guilt. What the hell is the difference?

I would point out that BM said a lot of threatening stuff about what would happen to you if you doubted him (aka 'got in your mind') or stopped practicing knowledge (really more the former than than the latter) besides the rotting vegetables threat.

For example, in just a random reading of one of his satsangs from Christmas, 1979, BM said that someone who refused to accept and be devoted to BM would 'surely go to hell.' Merry Christmas! And there were LOTS of other explicit and implied threats he continuously made. Many of us, even after leaving his cult, had to deal with the intermitent fears of calamity that would happen to our physical and spiritual selves because we no longer believed in him.

Moreover, he also said the same type of threatening crap about moving out of the ashram once you were in, let alone moving away from HIM, no matter how much you hated being his premie.

But, your overall statement is just ignorant, if not pathological. How on earth could you possibly travel on the supposed path of love with fear? That is just outragiously contradictory and stupid. But it is one of the elements that makes what BM operates a cult. It promises freedom and love, but it produces constriction and fear. And all the while premies keep telling themselves and each other that it's 'so beautiful' and glorious, and they get to feel superior to everyone else who isn't likewise programmed. That's what makes it so insidious and sick. But I think most people know deep down that it's a crock. That's why the fear has to be used to prevent that from coming to the surface.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 15:31:04 (EST)
From: King David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: JW
Subject: love and fear
Message:
Well said Joe. But will Red Heals (sorry Heart) understand this kind of language. In my opinion she's experiencing a sub/dom relationship with an imaginary Lord. That's fine but what do you do if she gets too big for her boots? Well we all know the kind of treatment/corrective therapy which is needed.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 16:20:32 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: King David
Subject: love and fear
Message:
David:

That's fine but what do you do if she gets too big for her boots? Well we all know the kind of treatment/corrective therapy which is needed.

We do?
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 20:13:48 (EST)
From: King David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: love and fear
Message:
Well surely I don't have to spell it out? What do you do with a sub girl who's getting a bit too arrogant for her own good. Some kind but firm discipline is administered. Sometimes you just HAVE to be cruel to be kind!
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 23:27:30 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: King David
Subject: to Sir K. David
Message:
nix that last question, D. this is a family channel, remember?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 05:57:40 (EST)
From: King David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: red heart
Subject: to Sir K. David
Message:
A family channel? Don't pull that one on me 'dear' after all it was you who brought the subject up in the first place.

I wouldn't call your spoutings exactly nice, healthy family entertainment. Why are you here? You haven't converted anyone. All you've done is get people's backs up. And that only serves to illustrate the kind of superior, arrogant mind-set which Maharaji cultivates.

And now a simple question. Do you regard Maharaji to be God in human form. Do you regard him as the omnipresent, omnipotent Lord. Your recent comment that he saves you every day would imply this. A simple yes or no answer will suffice. And I don't mean do you regard him as a master because that could mean anything.

The bottom line is, is he God or not? Just a simple answer will be enough. After all, you are treating him as if he's God so I'm bound to ask such a question.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:22:42 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: red_heels@hotmail.com
To: King David
Subject: to Sir K. David
Message:
Maharaji is like nothing I ever conceived of before encountering him. I had no concept of a one such as he.

just the name Maharaji will do. a Rose by any other name remains the same.

the first time i ever had a chance to ask him a question, i gave him a perfect opportunity to speak of himself as some cosmic something or other. but he didn't respond that way. you know what he did? he said something that would help me. and that would help others in the room. self-aggrandizement is not his thing.

'who' or 'what' he is, he is to you what he is to you. for me, he saves me, yes, every day. so i like to call him my savior. saving is what i needed and continue to need most. i would be in a mental institution or dead today if not for him. guaranteed. but more than that. he has give me much more than that. he makes real in my life what it means to be human, to be ''the crown of creation.''

my concept of ''God'' does not fit Maharaji, no. not God. he is the True Master, the Living Master of our time. it's very interesting and wonderful and incredibly beautiful to see how the Living Master is making the Light so accessible during this very, very dark time of our world. i revere him above any and all other human beings i have ever met or imagined or heard about.

anything you feel uncomfortable expressing here, you can e-mail me. anybody can feel free to e-mail me. now i got to leave for work.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:55:43 (EST)
From: King David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: red heart
Subject: You're not so bad, Red Heart
Message:
Hey Red Heart, you actually believe all this stuff. You're not so bad after all. Actually if I knew you, I'd probably like you. But you're going to have to accept that your experience is not the same as some of ours here. Now we all talk from our own experience. Yours is valid but it's not the same as ours. I can buy this talk about love. I believe love is a very important thing in life. It's a good feeling. But some of us just don't love Maharaji. Now can we pretend otherwise? Of course we can't. And that doesn't make us any lesser people - we're just saying it like it is.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 02:00:59 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: King David
Subject: You're not so bad, Red Heart
Message:
wow, i thought for sure that was going to be a trick subject line and then the grenades were going to go off in the body of the text. wow, i'm getting paranoid. maybe i should take a break from this website for a few days, haha.

well, yes, of course what you say is true, that pretense would not do. i never thought that the people on here flinging all the accusations were insincere. it's a strange dynamic, because on this website i am labeled as a brainless cult member, and well, the shoes don't fit. i feel that much disinformation is dispensed from this website--probably to each other here more than to the general public who never even heard of Maharaji anyway.

i'm glad you believe in love. it is good to feel it and it feels good to say it. and i believe every living human being is quite actively loved--just by virtue of the breath which keeps them alive. more and more to me the simple is the miraculous.

it's ironic. so many people on here act like Maharaji made them all unhappy and repressed and shit. and for me, it was quite the opposite. under the rays of his influence i have blossomed and 'come out' of my shell.

and i'd probably like you too--especially if you ever lose the chip or whatever it is that makes you get mean (and I don't mean in the fun way).
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 13:44:13 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: cadbury@compuserve.com
To: red heart
Subject: to Sir K. David
Message:
'anything you feel uncomfortable expressing here, you can e-mail me. anybody can feel free to e-mail me. now i got to leave for work.'

Haven't you yet understood that most of the people here have been in your mindset? Try giving some credit to yourself and see if your experience gets lesser.
All those wondeful feelings you describe are due to your own self not the self of Prem Pal.

Jethro
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 05:36:18 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: i know what i could do alone
Message:
i know what i could do alone. i simply could not do it alone. with Maharaji's help, i am able to make real progress. when others say they could progress without his help, it just doesn't ring true to my own experience.

listening to Maharaji brings a sweet, sweet clarity. then i can think clearly, yes, myself. but when i get clouded or confused, i listen to the Master and his words cut through the b.s. he shows me once again the simplicity, remind me once again what i need to remember. he saves me again and again.

then, when i remember yet again, yes it is me. i would not have gotten so clear and simple without his help. i spent too many years complicating my thoughts, complicating everything. he keeps reminding me of the reality which is so simple and which, when i open my heart and see it, everything falls into place again and yet again.

and yes, it is me. i love it, and it is me. and it is him too. my mind can't understand all the words, but the feeling is simple and beautiful and my heart knows and i accept. i accept with gratitude, and thank him again.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:56:04 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: what progress?
Message:
with Maharaji's help, i am able to make real progress

what progress are you talking about? are you getting closer to god realization or something? how do you know?
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 23:04:55 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: King David
Subject: love and fear
Message:
oh yes? and just what might you be proposing, big boy?
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 23:02:47 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: love and fear
Message:
oh, come on. if you were really listening to him for a while you know better than that. he is very kind and the only thing he threatens is that part of you which loves the darkness. gimme a break.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 06:55:22 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: love and fear
Message:
what darkness?
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:08:37 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: love and fear
Message:
Do you DENY, the threats BM made over the years. Do you think I made up that quote in which he said if you leave him and knowledge that you go to hell???? If he is so loving, why did he say things like that??? Don't say such silly stuff.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 05:48:37 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: love and fear
Message:
i never heard him say that, so i can't really respond to that. i have heard him say many, many times in the past years, that he will not tell people they are going to go to hell if they don't practice Knowledge. that is what I have heard him say -- i have heard him say that he does not say that.

sometimes people hear things that aren't really there. i remember hearing once about a grossly misquoted transcript of something he said a long time ago. my friend heard the tape, and he did not say what got printed. it got printed in one of the premie publications, but it was not what he said. i wonder if this is such a case.

fact is, i am too busy enjoying the heaven inside he has shown me and shows me how to enjoy more and more. for me, because what i am experiencing is so beautiful, i can say this: the thought of stopping practicing Knowledge, stopping listening to Maharaji, stopping participating, this to me would be hell.

i choose heaven. heaven in this life. heaven within and in my own heart.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 12:05:30 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: love and fear
Message:
Red Fart,
You just can't face life. Listen, I know all the criticism that is written here about the New Age, but I got some decent ESP, and I can sense that you are totally fucking CATATONIC. Snap out of it, girl! You're totally fucking hypnotized. Life is passing you by - Grab a little bit, before it's all gone.

Screw all these platitudes you keep spouting out. You ain't fooling anyone here. No one talks like you when they're having fun, feeling happy, or enjoying life. You've been brainwashed.

Life's a bear. Everyone here knows that... but it's better to live it for what it's worth than die an early death. I promise.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 12:43:22 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: You're a fake premie!
Message:
I can't believe you're a premie.
No premie would be as catatonic as you are, unless insane.
Most of the premies are NOT insane.

They have strange ways, but to like this.

I guess they don't let you in anymore at video events, that's why you post here. True?
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:19:59 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: love and fear
Message:
i never heard him say that, so i can't really respond to that. i have heard him say many, many times in the past years, that he will not tell people they are going to go to hell if they don't practice Knowledge. that is what I have heard him say --i have heard him say that he does not say that.

Well, you are full of shit. I was IN THE ROOM when he said that you sould go to hell if you refused to recognize BM and didn't practice knowledge. I also have a copy of the Divine Times from 1979 in which it is printed. I have a copy in my current possesion (thanks to Joy who happened to keep one.)

I was also IN THE ROOM when he said that 10 tons of vegetables would rot inside you if you didn't practice knowledge. I was IN THE ROOM on numerous occasions of his ashram satsangs in which he said, for example, that moving out of the ashram was equivalent to moving into as cesspool, and I was IN THE ROOM when he said, upon reviewing initiator applications, that if he saw that a premie had indicated that they HAD moved out of the ashram, it made him so angry that he wanted to throw the application on the floor.

Since he was, at the time, portraying himself to be god incarnate, the messiah equivalent to Jesus, Krishna, and Buddha, that kind of comment has a big effect on the premies, like me, who were hanging on every word and trying to do exactly as he wanted.

Moreover, even his more current revisionsit comments that 'he doesn't SAY' you will go to hell, is VERY disingenious. The clear implication is on the 'SAY' the implied threat is still very much there.

If you didn't here this stuff either you weren't listening, or more likely, you are so programmed that you can just repress stuff about BM that contradicts his current version of what he is about.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 20:14:06 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: red heart & premie ji
Subject: love and fear
Message:
This is a cult. The cult has gotten more strange over the years. Do you remember when MJ told us to call him on the 900 number to hear his satsang every day.

I did call. After a while, he stopped changing the message even every month. Eventually it was just dead at the other end. You get the idea. CALL THE LORD EVERY DAY.

How about when we were supposed to call the national number daily to find out if new events with MJ were announced. MJ told us to stop chit chatting with each other and call the number. He also made fun of us for talking to each other. (YOU KNOW, DIVIDE AND CONQUOR.) Once I called the contact person for London, Ontario to tell her the good news. She told me to never do this again. MJ wanted us to have our own experience and joy by calling the voice message system. The next time a program was called, I didn't say anything. Our fair leader found out the day before and had to pay top dollar for her ticket. She never told me to keep my mouth shut again.

He said he had gotten rid of most of the ORGANIZATION. Now it's bigger than ever. VISIONS, ELAN VITAL and his RECORDING STUDIO are bringing in BIG BUCKS.

If there is no organization, why is PADARTHANON coming back here (previously unscheduled) to talk to what's left of our community (6 people). After calling two of them about my doubts, I have been ex-communicated. By the way, I never told them what I wrote. How do they know? None of them has a computer.

By the way, premies, MJ is reading here. Why not tell him your real name. Maybe he'll give you some service to do, UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL.
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