Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 14

From: Jun 23, 1998

To: Jun 30, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5



david f. -:- devotion and donuts -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:58:27 (EST)
__Robyn -:- devotion and donuts -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 21:55:38 (EST)
__red heart -:- devotion and donuts -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 23:59:21 (EST)
____Mark -:- devotion and golden donuts -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 18:34:00 (EST)
______Gail -:- devotion and golden donuts -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 19:24:20 (EST)
______red heart -:- devotion and golden donuts -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 02:02:23 (EST)
________Joy -:- devotion and golden donuts -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 02:12:54 (EST)
__________red heart -:- devotion and golden donuts -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 02:34:26 (EST)
__________Sir David -:- devotion and golden donuts -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 05:10:16 (EST)
____________red heart -:- proud to be a premie -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:26:55 (EST)
____________VP -:- devotion and fanaticism -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:37:51 (EST)
______JW -:- devotion and golden donuts -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 21:58:54 (EST)

Jim -:- polite Q for red heart -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:19:06 (EST)
__SelenaJi -:- polite Q for red heart -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:55:32 (EST)
____red heart -:- polite Q for red heart -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:07:13 (EST)
______bftb -:- polite Q for red heart -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:34:58 (EST)
________John -:- polite Q for red heart -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 16:16:50 (EST)
______Selena -:- exotica -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:51:15 (EST)
__red heart -:- polite Q re listening -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:03:31 (EST)
____Jim -:- polite Q re listening -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:39:59 (EST)
______red heart -:- polite Q re listening -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 02:05:21 (EST)
________Jim -:- okay, red -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 01:49:39 (EST)
____red crow -:- impolite response re listening -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:13:04 (EST)
______Jim -:- Hi Nigel -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:34:51 (EST)
________x -:- Hi Nigel -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:06:25 (EST)
________Nigel -:- Hi Nigel -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:08:09 (EST)
________A -:- Dear Jim, -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 12:09:36 (EST)
__________Rick -:- Dear Jim, -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 13:15:30 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Edgar Allen Poe? -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 13:25:16 (EST)
____bb -:- rebel rebel -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:11:30 (EST)
____bb -:- red man listens????? -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:26:21 (EST)
____The real J Hammond-Smyth -:- I thought you meant Maharaji -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 21:41:35 (EST)
______Jim -:- I thought you meant Maharaji -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 13:45:48 (EST)
________John Hammond-Smyth -:- I thought you meant Maharaji -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 04:57:23 (EST)
__________g-s mom -:- I thought you meant Maharaji -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 15:25:22 (EST)

Rick -:- Brothers and Sisters???#%! -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:40:39 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Becky -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 12:09:10 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Becky -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 12:24:41 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Becky -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 12:39:34 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Peter's dictum -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:17:14 (EST)
________Gerry -:- Peter's dictum -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:25:57 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Peter's dictum -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:32:25 (EST)
__________John -:- Peter's dictum -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:11:21 (EST)
____________Sir David -:- David's dictum -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 21:55:32 (EST)
________Peter -:- Peter's dictum -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 16:50:57 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- Peter's dictum -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 17:00:48 (EST)
__Selena -:- Brothers and Sisters???#%! -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:37:09 (EST)
____Rick -:- Brothers and Sisters???#%! -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:52:10 (EST)
______JW -:- Brothers and Sisters???#%! -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:07:13 (EST)
________Robyn -:- JW and all -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:16:27 (EST)
________bb -:- JW maserati? -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 23:32:31 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- Nauserati -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 17:55:17 (EST)
__________Mark -:- JW maserati? -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 19:00:55 (EST)
____________Gail -:- Living without as many BSs. -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 19:35:30 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- Living without as many BSs. -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 11:10:57 (EST)
____________Judex -:- JW maserati? -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 01:28:32 (EST)
____Carol -:- Brothers and Sisters???#%! -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:45:51 (EST)
______Katie -:- Brothers and Sisters???#%! -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 16:01:19 (EST)
______VP -:- Carol, I dig that song -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:28:53 (EST)
________Selena -:- Carol, I dig that song too -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:43:54 (EST)
__________VP -:- Where the wild things are... -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:49:22 (EST)
____________Selena -:- Where the wild things are... -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:07:52 (EST)
__________Katie -:- more angry music -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:16:55 (EST)
____________Selena -:- Conctere Blonde -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:22:54 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Concrete Blonde -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:28:52 (EST)
________________Red Foley -:- more music -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 04:13:40 (EST)

red heart -:- students recognize the Master -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 10:24:06 (EST)
__bftb -:- students recognize the Master -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 10:44:59 (EST)
____John Smith-Ham -:- students recognize the Master -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:01:45 (EST)
______Jim -:- growth (to JHS) -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:40:36 (EST)
______Gail -:- John's Master Satpal -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:01:09 (EST)
____red heart -:- students recognize the Master -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 02:10:17 (EST)
__Grrrrry -:- Dogs recognize their Master -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 10:56:22 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Dogs recognize their Master -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:18:45 (EST)
____Selena -:- Dogs recognize their Master -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:18:05 (EST)
____G's mom -:- veggies and lifting legs -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:12:18 (EST)
______red heart -:- veggies and lifting legs -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:11:47 (EST)
__Paul -:- nausea -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:14:50 (EST)
__Rick -:- students recognize the Master -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:50:36 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- students recognize the Master -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:38:04 (EST)
__JW -:- students recognize the Master -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:20:20 (EST)

Katie -:- e-mail regarding my Journey -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 09:48:27 (EST)
__Jim -:- The forces of Satpal -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:37:05 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Guru Wars -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:52:40 (EST)
______Jim -:- Guru Wars -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:47:06 (EST)
________Gerry -:- Guru Wars -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:03:49 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Guru Wars -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:22:06 (EST)
________VP -:- Jim-fat guru and diet -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:46:13 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Jim-fat guru and diet -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:02:02 (EST)
____________VP -:- diet (off topic) -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:43:08 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- The forces of Satpal -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:43:14 (EST)
______Katie -:- The forces of Satpal -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:01:11 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- The forces of Satpal -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 21:45:13 (EST)
__JW -:- e-mail regarding my Journey -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:00:38 (EST)
____Katie -:- more details about e-mail -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:37:20 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- yes more details -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 04:00:41 (EST)
________Katie -:- yes more details -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:53:57 (EST)

Jim -:- Judex pecks -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 23:59:29 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Judex pecks -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:01:15 (EST)
____Jim -:- Think clearly, Scott -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:37:03 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Think clearly, Scott -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 17:09:46 (EST)
________Jim -:- That's no answer, Scott -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:01:49 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- That's no answer, Scott -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:11:45 (EST)
____________Rick -:- That's no answer, Scott -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:22:34 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- Scott,Rick,Jim -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 22:20:41 (EST)
________________Scott T. -:- You've got a way with words. -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:54:54 (EST)
____________Jim -:- That's no answer, Scott -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 21:10:47 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- Pathetic -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 23:01:27 (EST)
____________bb -:- Scott T. -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 00:32:42 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- Crack in the armor. -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 15:34:13 (EST)
__JW -:- Point Of Information!!!!! -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 17:27:38 (EST)
____Katie -:- First year after (plus info) -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 17:41:38 (EST)
______JW -:- First year after (plus info) -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:20:59 (EST)
________Katie -:- First year after -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:40:24 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Another thing - music -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:45:31 (EST)
____________Selena -:- Another thing - music -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:02:22 (EST)
______Jim -:- First year after (plus info) -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:08:23 (EST)
______G's mom -:- First year after (plus info) -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 00:09:36 (EST)
________Gerry -:- First year after (plus info) -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 01:38:41 (EST)
____Judex -:- Point Of Information!!!!! -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:02:31 (EST)
______Jim -:- JUDEX! -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:12:30 (EST)
____Judex -:- Point Of Information!!!!! -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:22:37 (EST)
______Selena -:- tired of reading about Jim -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:27:36 (EST)
________VP -:- tired of reading about Jim -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 14:03:56 (EST)
______Jim -:- Listen, Judex -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:46:39 (EST)
________Judex -:- Listen, Judex -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 21:57:19 (EST)
__________Judex -:- To Jim - as good as it gets -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 09:04:38 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Judex, that's not good enough -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:33:31 (EST)
______________Jim -:- clarification -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:38:23 (EST)
____________Peter -:- as good as it gets -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 15:15:40 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- To Jim - as good as it gets -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:19:08 (EST)
______Gerry -:- Point Of Information!!!!! -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 01:47:09 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Point Of Information!!!!! -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 16:52:58 (EST)

Katie -:- Birth Order -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 21:45:48 (EST)
__Ind..er, Gerry (I think) -:- Birth Order -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 22:10:37 (EST)
____Katie -:- Birth Order -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 22:22:29 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Birth Order -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 10:36:19 (EST)
__RT -:- New Birth Order -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 22:11:20 (EST)
____Katie -:- New Birth Order -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 22:26:52 (EST)
______Selena -:- New Order -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 22:39:26 (EST)
________Katie -:- New Order -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 23:33:41 (EST)
________Robyn -:- New Order -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 10:39:54 (EST)
__________VP -:- More like an only -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:59:08 (EST)
____________Selena -:- More like an only -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:41:05 (EST)
______________Katie -:- More like an only -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:04:19 (EST)
________________Jim -:- More like an only -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 21:55:11 (EST)
______________VP -:- Selena--onlies -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 11:13:26 (EST)
____________x -:- More like an only -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:55:49 (EST)
______________VP -:- x-More like an only -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:57:13 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- More like an only -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 22:57:25 (EST)
______________VP -:- The name of the book -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 11:03:47 (EST)
__Carol -:- Birth Order -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 23:39:21 (EST)
__G's mom -:- Birth Order -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 00:09:03 (EST)
____Katie -:- Birth Order -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 16:29:41 (EST)
______g's mom -:- Birth Order -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:38:27 (EST)
________Katie -:- Birth Order -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 22:10:24 (EST)
__________g's -:- me -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 23:14:44 (EST)
______VP -:- Divine Club -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:50:42 (EST)
__Rick -:- Birth Order -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 00:19:07 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Birth Order -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 00:29:59 (EST)
__red heart -:- eldest here -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:21:45 (EST)
____red heart -:- eldest here -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:36:35 (EST)
______Robyn -:- eldest here -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 10:48:42 (EST)
__Paul -:- Birth Order -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:02:34 (EST)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- Birth Order -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 12:38:27 (EST)
__Katie -:- Birth Order-thanks for answers -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 16:23:26 (EST)
____John -:- Birth Order-thanks for answers -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 16:56:12 (EST)
______Katie -:- Birth Order of John K. -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 17:19:33 (EST)
________VP -:- Birth Order of Jim -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:05:45 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Birth Order of Jim -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:14:29 (EST)
____Jim -:- Birth Order-thanks for answers -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:15:21 (EST)
__david f. -:- Birth Order -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 21:02:18 (EST)
____Katie -:- Birth Order -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 15:07:19 (EST)
__bb -:- BO -:- Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 00:04:44 (EST)
____Judex -:- Birth Order - Katie -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 07:04:05 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Birth Order - Katie -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 09:32:21 (EST)
______Katie -:- Birth Order why? -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 09:40:36 (EST)


Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:58:27 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com
To: Everyone
Subject: devotion and donuts
Message:
All this talk of love and M's great gift of devotion brings to mind an event from my premies days. I was caught up with the whole thing, love and devotion and all, but one day I though, is it M that is giving us something, or is it simply that I feel so devoted, and could I get the same feelings being devoted to something else?

So I tried a little experiment (no wonder M tells us to not trust our own minds!): I started visualizing a large donut (the regular kind, not a divine one), and then evoked all kinds of feelings towards it -- that it was the most beautiful donut I had ever seen, that it radiated love, that it had given me so much and that I could never understand in a million years what this donut really was, etc, etc (hey, most of you know the drill).

Well, what I found was that I could have all of the same feelings of 'love' and 'bliss' and 'peace' by loving this imaginary divine donut that I had by being devoted to BM! It wasn't long after that I left the fold, and started to be 'devoted' to things that were more real.

So perhaps some of you out might want to give it a try -- perhaps we could have an on-line contest to see who comes up with the strangest inanimate object to be devoted to, and has the strongest feelings of love and devotion.

best wish, have a great weekend (I, unfortunately, will be busy moving) david f.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 21:55:38 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: david f.
Subject: devotion and donuts
Message:
Dear David,
I loved this post and it reminded me of the Tom Robbins book I mentioned below as Clementine, Skinny Legs and All, an excellent book. A conch shell, some magically spiritual stick, a spoon and a dirty sock on a spiritual journey. So my imagination is clouded with those images but I do like the dirty sock, the underdog.
Another great one is a neclace I made in a college jewlery class. My friend called it my talisman and it got me to read The Talisman . It is made of copper, with silver, brass kind of scales and looks like a demon with a bit of dragon thrown in. Can you tell I am proud of it. I think I could worship it and in doing that I would be worshiping myself, eh? My this is getting deeper than I intended.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 23:59:21 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: david f.
Subject: devotion and donuts
Message:
i have been very devoted to many other things in my life. nothing came close to what Maharaji shows and gives me. not even close.

the best thing about donuts is the whole in the middle.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 18:34:00 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: Apple 4256@aol.com
To: red heart
Subject: devotion and golden donuts
Message:
actually,
as the resevoir of devotion
you have for M
is the raw material for the donut experiment,
and as you said
'it's what he showed you ( in your self,
not in him- tho you have identified him
as the soul/sole activation point)'

the stage that you are ready for,
(should you choose to accept this mission)
is to RECOGNIZE that you can at any point
transfer devotion to your SELF !
give your self the same devotion, recognition,graditude, and love that you
are currently experiencing with the MultiMedia Master. . .
( in fact a 30 second private test run might blow your Mind-
it did mine, when I finally found the courage some years back)

as I too have swum hard and far into devotional ecstacy
for decades ( wearing my red heels)
&
I was loath to chuck that experience along with M

so I too chose a donut with a hole in the middle
-ME-and bowed to that. . .
and entirely new mansions of experience opened up

I suggest to the part of your soul
that still wants even more . . .
to consider that option,
because I promise you it is there. . .

also I saw that you did not recognize the Pinata Satsang
so you may hasve missed the early days. . .
M was thre first Guru to show up in America and pronounce
himself the Messiah,
we mostly idealists bit hard/' the shefiff was in Dodge'
if he tried it today He'd be laughed out of Town . . .
but his greatest gift to me was the introduction
of the possibity of a divinely inspired human being
and that I did have the possibility of truly awakening
along with my fellow planetary citizens to a Potential
beyond imagining . . .

on some very fundamental level the M everyone is agreeing and disagreeing with , is an impersonal holograph . . .
a compilation of his public appearances,videos, and our collective hopes and needs/ externally manifest
and by sitting in the chair and recieving the energy
he does participate in the magic and earns
his $10 MM a year- I mean that's not excessive, Chopra and Oprah earn more
( tho John Miller was recemtly shopping for a
$2-4 MM yacht in Miami for M- do you think that's
perhaps to help the spread of knowledge
in the Carribean ? . . .)

even he,Rawat, talks about M in the 3rd person

so if M identified himself as training wheels
for Lovers of God
that the goal was to become Self Dependant
not Master Dependant
and the message behind the spiritual discipline
was 'fly off I'm here if you need me
good luck' ( you know, the spiritual Uncle or Dad)

I'd be still supporting him
But after lenghty and careful, closeup scrutiny -
I saw it was not , & therefore not in
my best interests to have M as a final spiritual destination
nor pass his particular astigmatism to my children, or future generations of innocents . . .
books I suggested in my Journeys entry,especially / conv, w/god 1 & Pleiadian Workbook ,will give you some neutral perspective
on the mechanics of the transfer to the true
'Golden Donut' of your life
YOU
M is your set of training wheels . . .
but you're ready for your 2 wheeler, girl . . .
and as the Carpenter's sang,
'We've Only Just Begun'

please feel free to E-mail me directly if I can be of service
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 19:24:20 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: Mark
Subject: devotion and golden donuts
Message:
Wow. I just tried it. You are right.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 02:02:23 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: devotion and golden donuts
Message:
i am devoted to myself, Mark. otherwise i wouldn't take advantage of what Maharaji offers. is wonderful.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 02:12:54 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: devotion and golden donuts
Message:
Exactly it, Red Heart. Premies are devoted to BM and themselves and that's it. Period. I don't see any connection with or compassion for, anybody else on the planet in the whole equation. Very self-absorbed trip, if you ask me. As is reflected in the many, many posts from ex-premies of the unfeeling and selfish way they treated their children and rude, spiritually arrogant and offensive ways we behaved to our families while involved. It has taken me YEARS to put my relationship with my family back together, after the ten years I spent ignoring them and preaching at them that the Lord was here, when I did bother to communicate at all. And lest premies scream, 'but M didn't ask us to behave that way, it's our own doing', I'll refer you to JW, who's got the exact quotes somewhere.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 02:34:26 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: devotion and golden donuts
Message:
sorry, but i didn't do it that way. i didn't preach to my relatives, and our relationships did not change. i lost a few friends when i first got involved with Maharaji, but that was their decision, not mine, and not because i insisted they be into it. people have choices as non-premies, aspirants, premies, ex-premies. you made the choices you made. i don't see that Maharaji is to blame for your choices. i have many friends who are not premies and have shown no real interest in Maharaji. doesn't mean they aren't my friends, doesn't cause any problem between us. sounds like you made a choice to do only things regarding Maharaji for a long period of time, and then when you changed your mind you decided to get mad at him. sorry, i don't get it. what did you expect? what great effort did you make that went so unrewarded?
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 05:10:16 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Joy
Subject: devotion and golden donuts
Message:
Well said Joy. My friend Mr J Hammond-Smyth (currently a follower of Satpal) says that he doesn't even think that this Red Heels person is a premie. I tend to agree with him. Read his post below and I think you'll agree.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:26:55 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: proud to be a premie
Message:
now wait just a minute! you can call me a transvestite, you can call me an obvious idiot, you can call me a fart and all kinds of other names, but to disqualify me as not even existing is a little bit out of line.

or maybe you are just scared of me. if i am real, then what are you?

Proud to Be a Premie
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:37:51 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: david f
Subject: devotion and fanaticism
Message:
Nice comparison, david f. If you try hard enough, I'm sure it is possible to devote, fixate, or obsess on anything you choose. I personally think that this kind of devotion is not much different from fanaticism, which is not very healthy, IMHO. (What say you, Scott?)

I consider myself devoted to my children and my family and friends, and to experiences in life in general, but not in the same way that one would 'devote' to a leader or dogma. For me, keeping things in a balanced perspective gives me the most peace. Getting fanatical seems to complicate things. The donut idea is a good exercise in keeping things in perspective. Thanks for posting it.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 21:58:54 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: devotion and golden donuts
Message:
In my experience, the 'devotion' I felt for BM (which I equate with 'love') was intense because it was 'focused.'

It was 'focused' on one concept, one idea of a 'master.' It wasn't really devotion for a person, because I never even met BM and he didn't know who in the hell he was. As it became more 'focused' it became more itense. It also meant the all the 'devotion' (love) I felt for anyone or anything else, including myself, was minimized if not obliterated. Hence, the strained relations with family, withdrawal from any love for humanity and desire to improve the world, etc., and also the reduction in self-esteem so prevelent in premies. The devotion became focused by satsang, service, meditation, programs, thought control, videos, movies, pictures, all the cult-trappings, powered by my desire to believe what BM was saying was true, in other words, 'faith'. Life became very truncated and narrow, and very suffocating.

But I'm not so sure I would want to take that same intense devotion as you suggest and focus it on 'SELF.' I have found that my life is much improved the less I focus on SELF, and the more I focus on other worthwhile, relationships, people, causes, ideas, etc in my life. It's a much more beautiful experience, a much more fulfilling life, and much more complete, than I ever felt as a premie.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:19:06 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: polite Q for red heart
Message:
red heart,

you might have noticed that premie ji and i have started talking nicely to one another and are actually having a civil discussion. right now he's preparing a reply to my follow-up question about bal bhagwan ji's 'knowledge'. (i'd be most interested in your comments on that issue as well, by the way. would you tell along-time follower of bal bhagwan ji that he doesn't have the real thing? would you tell him that you know for sure?)

but my main question for you concerns what you said below:

there is no replacement for listening to the Master. his words are like a polishing cloth on my heart, my mind, my soul. and the rest from my 'chatterbox in my head' when I practice is very satisfying. it's wonderful to learn and experience and know that my true self is much more beautiful than my mind could ever 'think up.'

would you feel the same way regardless of the words MAHARAJI used? you know, if HE was talking about stereos, for example? would you feel your heart being polished? or how about HIS travel plans or accomdations? a little buff job? (now no jokes here, red heart, i said 'buff'). cause HE does talk about stuff like that, doesn't HE? sure HE does.

so, what part of the satsang is satsang? where are the active ingredients?
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:55:32 (EST)
From: SelenaJi
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: polite Q for red heart
Message:
my dear brother
you simply don't have the ears to hear his satsang. if you
listen with an open heart and a guileless mind, all His words
are satsang. because of the nature of M his mere presence
is all that is needed. the words are just to buff the experience.
i would love nothing more than to continue to try to
show you the love i feel, but i have 'this' job to try
to maintina 'this' body, so 'the world' is taking
me from my true purpose. perhaps later dear brother.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:07:13 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: SelenaJi
Subject: polite Q for red heart
Message:
all these enticing and exotic 'Ji' suffixes keep popping up. red heartji? Naaaah.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:34:58 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: polite Q for red heart
Message:
Hey Red Heart,I've got a polite question for you if you don't mind.Requires a little set-up though: Many years back I was at a program in so.cal and I was hanging out with this really nice woman from Germany when a 3rd party informed us that they had heard that a serious natural disaster was potentially about to hit southern california in a big way(It could have been fires but maybe it was earthquake-can't remember-the gist was that 'something really bad's gonna happen,they just said it on the radio').Well my immediate gut thought was 'guess it's time to head back to Berkeley.I don't want to get caught/killed in some natural disaster down here'.Before I could verbalize that this woman I was with looks at me all concerned and says 'I hope M's not here when it hits'. I was amazed.M?I mean I love the guy and everything but I'm more worried about myself right now.Sure I don't want anyone else to get hurt in this thing and if my kids were with me I suppose I'd have thought of them before myself but I was alone with this new friend at the time. Call me selfish or a non-pcp(Politically Correct Premie)but M was not my first gut thought.

My question to you is who do you think you'd have thought of first in a similar situation?(no kids,spouses,relatives with you,just a new friend)M or yourself?
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 16:16:50 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: polite Q for red heart
Message:
Interesting BFTB, because a similar thing happened to me.

We had gone to M's divine residence in Malibu for a birthday bash, I think this was in 1975, nothing happened at the party, I mean does anything ever happen at an M event other than M comes and everyone is totally freaked out because M IS HERE!

Well, we were leaving and someone said something about what a long drive it was going to be (back to Phoenix). There was the hint that maybe this few hours at the residence was hardly worth all this trouble. My thought was simply that it was worth it. Why? Because I had seen old friends that I hadn't seen in months! It wasn't that I got to see M that I was glad I had come.

Then, to top it off, someone else says, that the whole trip to him was worth it because he was so relieved to see that M had a nice place to live. He had been worried because he had heard it was kind of run down.

My jaw dropped. I couldn't believe that anyone would be concerned about his million dollar house being suitable or not!

So, some people really do feel these selfless things for M. Myself, I was only in it for 'what can he do for ME' NOT, 'what can I do for him'.

And so YES, it is TRUE, thank God, I was never a true devotee, I was never a premie, I was never a premie!!!!!!
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:51:15 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: exotica
Message:
dearest sister.
how kind of you to respond in such a way. i think i am beginning to see into your true self. how stupid of me not to see it sooner.
yes, the 'ji' ending on names is indeed exotic. it brings me back to a simpler time, the scent of gardenias heavey in the air, both outside and in the hall. the temperature a hundred degrees and the humidity over 90. hours and hours of endless satsang. then, later, at night..
a walk on the beach with 'a brother'.
we are both married to different people but, the love that M has given usis so strong.. you can almost see it. the magic is real. we turn to each other, he touches
me,...
a few weeks later, back home, he tells me..
you won't ever say anything, will you? this would really hurt (the wife)
his words hurt me, deeply, bring out old wounds i had tried so hard tobury
but i stuff them again. and this new one. after all, this isn't real, this is just the world. we were intoxicated by M's love at the time.
years later i reenact the whole thing.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:03:31 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: polite Q re listening
Message:
is it my imagination? you do almost sound sweet at times...

yes, he talks about all kinds of things, and if you are following it and not chopping it apart with reactions and ideas simultaneously, you will find that there is almost always an easy to find point to what he is saying. we can only do one thing at a time really. we try sometimes to think, analyze and listen all at the same time.

if you get distracted by thoughts such as i have read on this page like 'he has a nicer car than I do, and my god he must have so much money' then you lose the thread, lose the feeling and miss it entirely. but it's there. it's very rare that i don't clearly understand him to be making a point about something, something which helps my heart, clears my mind.

he uses the context of just about anything that pops into his head at the time or might have recently been on his mind, just like regular people. he's a regular people too, you know. in one sense he is anything but regular; and yet in another sense, if you really listen to him, you will hear a 'regular guy.'

since he flies (pilots) so much, he naturally gives lots of examples in which he ends up talking about flying. is just natural. when he's been driving a car or whatever, then those examples will come to him more often. he talks a lot from his real life experiences, which is very natural.

it can be very hard to listen to the Master without analyzing. we are so conditioned to judging and analyzing. but to get his message clearly one must listen. there is an art to really, really listening. listening with your soul. to listen with openness, acceptance, and allow the clarity of thought to manifest in a very natural and simple manner. there is a sense of patience and humility. of being filled.

to me, listening to the Master is the easiest part of practicing Knowledge, and yet even for someone like me who wants to listen, am amazed at times at how easily i can get distracted.

when i get distracted (by something in the room, a daydream, or my mind asking, ''Why did he say that? that verb was conjugated improperly, but most of the time his grammar is pretty good,'' and so on...that's when i don't get it. not at all.

listening is a real art. how strange that so many of us have lost it without realizing it. have to redirect, refocus. and listen. it takes the patience waiting for what the person is going to say next, and relaxing, allowing my own thoughts to be suspended as much as possible until he is through. And then i will have the whole picture, and can reflect with everything in context. the inspiration will have already been felt, during the listening. then sometimes additional clarity of thought comes as a sort of after-effect.

but why are you being so nice? is this a trick?

red heart
(getting paranoid hanging around here)
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:39:59 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: polite Q re listening
Message:
but why are you being so nice? is this a trick?

Yes.

No, seriously, I'm more than happy to discuss this with you civilly. I only lose it when people don't argue fairly. I promise you I won't lose my cool if you stay rational with me. If you feel that's too hard at any point just say so and I'll back off. So long as you admit, at that point, that you can't discuss the matter rationally any further, that'll work for me. Alternatively, of course, you might have no such problem and may even persuade me of soemthing or other. Anyway, do we have a deal?
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 02:05:21 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: polite Q re listening
Message:
i have no problem communicating with you, Jim.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 01:49:39 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: okay, red
Message:
Then please answer the questions I posed to premieji above under 'I love this one'.

Thanks,
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:13:04 (EST)
From: red crow
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: red heart
Subject: impolite response re listening
Message:
but why are you being so nice? is this a trick?

Dear red heart,

So nice that you and Jim can be nice to one another. There is so much bullying and abuse going on around here, it kind of makes one sad to be human. And being nice is so nice, IMHO, and so important too. People who aren't nice, or even worse, pretend to be nice when they aren't nice are the lowest of the low. It is a profound insult to the integrity of niceness generally.

In southern Sudan there are stick-children grubbing for insects to eat in the dirt. It's not really their fault since they are orphaned and destitude as a result of the war there but, all the same, it isn't nice to see - especially when they're about five years old, same as my youngest (Happy birthday, Oliver!), and I really wish the BBC wouldn't show that sort of thing. It isn't nice. If I watch too much of this stuff I might become emotionally involved in the (illusory, world-based) plight of these apparently fellow-human beings, and God knows what would happen then. I might even end up forgetting my own real purpose in life of realising Maharaji's precious Knowledge, and even start wondering whether His Divine Grace has its priorities right, and that could spoil my my meditation something rotten. I might even divert my donations from EV to Amnesty International or worse, then it will be Greenpeace and I'll have completely lost the plot

That was an aside, sort of trying to make the point that niceness is froth, and reality is different. If what follows is less than nice then - what the fuck - you might thank me one day

Here is my main point (back-click now or brace yourself…)

Red Heart, your posts are full of so much crap it's unbelievable (to anyone bar a true eyeball-squeezer). Your capacity to rationalise reminds me of myself about twenty years back and I blush at the memory.

Please note, I am not calling you a stupid, bad, or mentally-ill person here. I am just saying the views you express here are so way beyond commonsense, reason, sanity or ordinary human decency that I am beginning to understand the very cross ex's here who make unkind judgements about you based upon nothing more than the things you say. Forgive them, please, for the things you say are all they have to go on. And the things you say are very stupid indeed.

yes, he talks about all kinds of things, and if you are following it and not chopping it apart with reactions and ideas simultaneously, you will find that there is almost always an easy to find point to what he is saying. we can only do one thing at a time really. we try sometimes to think, analyze and listen all at the same time.

Did you write this? Were you thinking at the time? Can you walk and chew gum?

listening is a real art. how strange that so many of us have lost it without realizing it. have to redirect, refocus. and listen. it takes the patience waiting for what the person is going to say next, and relaxing, allowing my own thoughts to be suspended as much as possible until he is through. And then i will have the whole picture, and can reflect with everything in context. the inspiration will have already been felt, during the listening. then sometimes additional clarity of thought comes as a sort of after-effect.

This is so magnificent, so outrageously glorious in its limp acquiescence, that I am suddenly tongue-tied. I had a whole spiel to do here but suddenly can't be bothered. I mean - surely everybody - premie, ex, aspirant, casual web-browser has understood you loud and clear.

it can be very hard to listen to the Master without analyzing.

It doesn't seem to give you too many problems.

listening is a real art.

You are artful indeed.

Nigel
On temporary leave from exile
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:34:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: red crow
Subject: Hi Nigel
Message:
Boy do I feel your exasperation! Nigel, imagine your kid locked in a car and you outside trying to get him to open the door. Well, at five, I guess he's a little old for this example. I mean, he's going to get the message and unlock the door. Hmm, I wonder how young he'd have to be?

Naw, that doesn't really work. It's more like you're trying to get the kid out of the car -- say the Martians are coming or something -- and the poor kid's mother, paranoid freak that she is -- has specifically told the kid that under no conditions should he open the door for anyone. NO conditions. She, mom, has the keys and that should be enough for her son if he really trusts her. Only mom can open the door.

How frustrating, eh?

That's kidn of how it is. It's not that premies can't reason. They've just promised Maharaji that they they won't. Now if MAHARAJI tried to reason with them, they'd be right there. For example, he could explain all the REASONS that he, and not his brother, is a true guru. They'd absorb it like vegetarian gravy, no problem. If you then asked one why Prempal, not Satpal, is the man, they'd happily recite the REASONS they got. They wouldn't just say that Maharaji explained why 'but it wasn't the words.'

But they've promised Maharaji they won't open the door for anyone, not even their own minds.

Hence, people like you and me pound on the windshield and even search under the fender for a hide-a-key.

Oh well!

Have nice day.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:06:25 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Jim & Nigel
Subject: Hi Nigel
Message:
Well Put Jim & Nigel, very cool.

x
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:08:09 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hi Nigel
Message:
Hi Jim

They'd absorb it like vegetarian gravy, no problem.

Do you work at the metaphor, or does it just happen? Selena has made similar observations. You're a writer Jim. Do it.

As to the subject at hand (red heart), life is too short. I get frustrated, exasperated, angry. If she and premie ji were my kids, I'd threaten to 'knock their silly heads together' as my mother used to say.

You have a nice day too.

(I certainly will - there's gonna be a bouncy castle and a conjuror!)
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 12:09:36 (EST)
From: A
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Dear Jim,
Message:
Considering your sharp intelligence and your law degree, it is surprising that you publish here such sweeping generalizations and assumptions about people ('premies') most of whom you do not know as individuals. This would never work in a courtroom, would not fly even in a friendly conversation with an educated person similar to yourself. Your vendetta is too often expressed via communications which belie your learning and which lack factual authenticity. You thus demean yourself; yet I remember your worth and integrity as greater than what you present in these pages.Do you remember hearing him singing? I heard him too, that same night. I remember your face when you spoke of it,and no one listened, in the morning ashram meeting; I never told you I had heard what you said, nor that I knew what you were saying. If this is an experience you have forgotten, there's no need to say 'it never happened.' Forgotten, it might as well have never happened.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 13:15:30 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: A
Subject: Dear Jim,
Message:
All premies act like morons - I acted like a moron when I was a premie. Fatso Guru acts like the Supreme Moron. These aren't assumptions, they're observations. I dare one premie to talk about the BM and not sound like a moron.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 13:25:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: A
Subject: Edgar Allen Poe?
Message:
Do you remember hearing him singing? I heard him too, that same night. I remember your face when you spoke of it,and no one listened, in the morning ashram meeting; I never told you I had heard what you said, nor that I knew what you were saying.

Who is this? Annie? This sounds like 'The Raven' a bit. No, I don't know what you're talking about. Honestly. Who singing? I have no idea? Would you please fill me in?

Thanks
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:11:30 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: rebel rebel
Message:
rawat think of himself as a rebel, well,
let's have a look.

So many guys like to claim they are more special than us and more
god like and so we should defer to them and relate to them
by thier pedestals.

your eminance.
your holiness
reverand
most reverand
the very reverand
holy father
father
your grace
living saint
perfect master
lord of the universe
dalia lama
vicar of christ
archbishop
guru
lord

I dont see where rawat is so much of a rebel.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:26:21 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: red man listens?????
Message:
If you have listened intently during the last few years
you would have heard his midlife crisis go into full swing
a while after his mom died.

Did you notice it?

It went on for years and I wonder if you caught any of it.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 21:41:35 (EST)
From: The real J Hammond-Smyth
Email: padded.cell@asylum.com
To: red heart
Subject: I thought you meant Maharaji
Message:
Dear Red Heart, there was I, basking in the radience of your satsang, drinking in the nectar of your sweet remoniscence of our Lord and then I suddenly realised that you were talking about Maharaji's BROTHER, you know, the little brother with the drinking problem.

My dear, I think you have been misled. Maharaji's glory fills the whole world. I dream of being able to touch his feet, just one more time. Oh the bliss to look upon his face again. But my dear, I think you are mistaken. Maharaji is not his little brother. No, the big brother is Maharaji. How COULD you have been so mistaken?
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 13:45:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: The real J Hammond-Smyth
Subject: I thought you meant Maharaji
Message:
Too funny again, JHS. But tell me, NOW what are you going to do? Painted yourself in the corner with this one, didn't you? And all for the sake of one little joke (as good as it was). I know, perhaps you need a Knowledge Review!
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 04:57:23 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: padded.cell@asylum.com
To: Jim
Subject: I thought you meant Maharaji
Message:
No Jim. A true devotee is limitless. Unfettered by the constraints of ego. Anyway, people have short memories and if you sound confident, you can fool anyone into believing anything.

This Red Heart is not a premie, in my opinion. Jean-Michel has said that RH is a fake premie. Just an attention seeker, it would seem. Notice how she never talks about any experience of meditation. In her words, it is dry without the experience of the master. Perhaps she never even received the knowledge. Certainly there's a definite ring of untruth about her/him. RH doesn't come across as a real person at all. Unlike the other premies such as CD, OP, Bruce, Andrew Petrou and Mili who did seem real. No Jim, I think Red Heart is pure fantasy.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 15:25:22 (EST)
From: g-s mom
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: I thought you meant Maharaji
Message:
as i posted above, i think she is a premie just not a very devoted one. or more devoted to herself than the guru...maybe it works for her that way?
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:40:39 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Brothers and Sisters???#%!
Message:
Becky wrote: It would be good, if in talking about M,that we refrain from insulting or being sarcastic to premies or non-premies, since it makes it incredibly sad that we are ending up throwing punches because of one man. Premieji respect to you as my brother/sister.
Just one question: what will you do when M dies, and what do you think aspirants down the line will do once he is gone?


Who would it be good for? It wouldn't be good for me, and maybe half of the people who post here. Who does it make it 'incredibly sad' for? Not me, or likewise, half of the posters here.

Who's throwing punches? Nobody is throwing punches. How about not exaggerating?

And with all due respect, Becky, the tone of your post here, sounds like people used to talk in the ashram. Wouldn't you like to break out of that and be more expressive?

And what's up with the 'Brothers and Sisters'? Are you joking? Puhleeeeeeze!
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 12:09:10 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Becky
Message:
Dear Becky,
Listen, dear, Rick is my cursing and anger expression coach. He has helped me knowingly, unlike Jim who I learn from unbeknownst to himself, to come to terms with my adversion to anger and it's expression. It still gets to me and maybe I will never get really get into it here, opps, forgot about my recent rant, but maybe never really get comfortable with it but I have learned that it is. It is in life and it is here and it is wise to come to terms with it and be able to function in its presence. Don't you run into it in your life, yours or from others. I am not saying it is easy for me but it is necessary and benificial to stand up for what you believe in and for yourself. It will help you, and me, grow.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 12:24:41 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Becky
Message:
Becky

It would be good, if in talking about M,that we refrain from insulting or being sarcastic to premies or non-premies, since it makes it incredibly sad that we are ending up throwing punches because of one man. Premieji respect to you as my brother/sister.
Just one question: what will you do when M dies, and what do you think aspirants down the line will do once he is gone?


I agree restraint would be good. It's a sort of grown-up virtue. Perhaps, if we try, we can manage not to completely abandon it. Rick has a point though, I think. The consequences may not be as bad as they seem, in the long run.

-Scott

(in process of conversion to the 'Peter dictum.')
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 12:39:34 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Becky
Message:
(in process of conversion to the 'Peter dictum.')

Scott,

I may try a little of that on myself and see how it fits.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:17:14 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Gerry
Subject: Peter's dictum
Message:
I see I've missed or forgotten to much! What is Peter's dictum exactly, please if you don't mind repeating.
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:25:57 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Peter's dictum
Message:
Now you've put me on the spot, Robyn!

I am assuming it means communicating (I can feel the hammer blows already) in a civil and respectful manner which includes an attempt to make the other person feel understood. Of course it includes the high probability for disagreement and anger, but is more like discourse, than argument. Anybody help me out here?
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:32:25 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Gerry
Subject: Peter's dictum
Message:
Dear Gerry,
Yes, I did see and was totally emersed in that thread, I just know I've missed two or three others with similar subject matter. Don't worry honey, no hammer here, I'd just hit my thumb with it.
Love,
Robyn

will be painting walls in a house 6/26/98 instead of buying a computer.:(
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:11:21 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Peter's dictum
Message:
I thought it was related to the Peter Principle (people are promoted until they reach the level where they are incompetent).

In conversation, we will gradually sink to expressing that level of bs which is not questioned by others.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 21:55:32 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: John
Subject: David's dictum
Message:
If you argue with a fool - there's two fools arguing.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 16:50:57 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Robyn/Scott
Subject: Peter's dictum
Message:
Hi Robyn. I'm pretty sure that what Scott is referring to is an exchange between him and me in Judex's 'Cults, shame, and anger' thread from last Saturday. He was giving me heat about making a distinction between appropriate and inappropriate anger, and how could you tell the difference? I said that it basically came down to one question, 'Is this situation really what I'm angry about?' (which may not be the easiest question in the world to answer honestly). If the answer is yes, the anger is appropriate.

Scott, I'm glad that you felt like you got something out of that discussion.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 17:00:48 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Peter's dictum
Message:
Peter:

Scott, I'm glad that you felt like you got something out of that discussion.

How could I not, under the circumstances?

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:37:09 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Brothers and Sisters???#%!
Message:
Rick, I responded to Becky down in the original thread.
What's up with brother and sister terminology anyway?
Is that supposed to be a term of endearment?
I can't stand my sister. She's spoiled and lazy
and she abandoned me to an alcholic father as soon as she
could get away. Now she is stealing from me. screw her. Anybody calling me sister is
speaking fighting words, especially at the moment.

how's that Katie? Almost as good as throwing the dishes in the crib, no?
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:52:10 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Brothers and Sisters???#%!
Message:
Selena,
I remember when premies would call someone brother or sister, there was a subtle little 'fuck you' in there. Even BM once said in reference to brothers and sisters, 'That's not your sister.', insinuating the underlying flirtations that naturally took place in the ashrams.

I think it's supposed to take some of the tension out of life... as in, 'We're all brothers and sisters. One father, many children.'

I must say, I can't stand my sister, either.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:07:13 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Brothers and Sisters???#%!
Message:
I really like both of my sisters. They have been incredibly supportive, and forgiving, for how I separated myself from them while I was living in the 'reject-your-family' trip that Maharaji was so into.

But I also really dislike the 'brother and sister' terms. They are really kind of insulting, like someone can't call you by your REAL name, because that would denote to must individuality, like we were all supposed to meld into this amorphous group of 'brothers and sisters' who exist only for the worship of and service to, Maharaji.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:16:27 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: JW and all
Message:
Dear Joe,
Glad you get along with your sisters I do to, except maybe one but then she isn't even aware of it.
That was a good point about not letting a person be an individual. I never thought of that but it sounds right.
I almost replied to another post of yours where you mentioned Dr. Broner's soap, the peppermint is my favorite. Then I thought maybe it was tounge in cheek so I didn't but here I am anyway. If it was a real comment it points another reason why you'd be good for Jessica, for me, if you get that. It is just a small thing but like me.
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 23:32:31 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW maserati?
Message:
JW,

You had mentioned being taken for 30,000.
Was this in boston in 74?
If so, was it used by jeffery pease to buy that maserati?

That car got j. pease a load of abuse.
He had to endure rawat up close for a long time.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 17:55:17 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Nauserati
Message:
bb:

That car got j. pease a load of abuse.
He had to endure rawat up close for a long time.


I didn't know that. Recall seeing him push that car up the driveway of his Palisades house after it stalled, a memory I now relish. Also raced him up the Garden State Freeway in my $500 Opel Kadet (he won). Bet he couldn't beat me on a bicycle, no matter how much it cost.

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 19:00:55 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: Apple 4256@aol.com
To: bb
Subject: JW maserati?
Message:
no, that was a guy called Starr- peace's friend
he got an inheritance-bought M
the car. And M drove it off with Jeffery.

Starr was in City of Love and Light with me and JW
Jeff P has flourished in his time w/M
a lot have
lives in Malibu , and Flies Helicopters
sometimes for M

BB, a lot of people are enjoying themselves
with M & other living Perfect Masters
and with the Dalai lama
Reverends, Preists, popes, etc. you named

you must remember the planet
is 99 % belief system operated
and most of those people are
in no great hurry to disengage
for direct self experience
and the un predigested
path of uncertainty
& there's no blame on that
nor can you begrudge them their happiness
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 19:35:30 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: Mark
Subject: Living without as many BSs.
Message:
It seems really strange to be between belief systems. I don't know anything except that I don't want another one if I can help it.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 11:10:57 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Living without as many BSs.
Message:
Gail:

RE: It seems really strange to be between belief systems. I don't know anything except that I don't want another one if I can help it.

Unfortunately, I can't help it. What I do now is practice a system of crop rotation. It keeps the weeds down, and the soil fertile.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 01:28:32 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: JW maserati?
Message:
nor can you begrudge them their happiness

Mark, I have to say, well said.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:45:51 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Brothers and Sisters???#%!
Message:
Selena, Possibly because of the abuse I experienced from my only brother, I found that I especially like to have relationship or communication with men in which we regard in eachother as brother and sister assuming a good and caring brother/sister model. I felt that frequently with men who were premies and especially with some gay men friends with whom there was NO possibility of sexual games. I once shared a bunk with a premie male friend (who later came out as gay) and we massaged eachother and were innocently intimate. I wish I knew where he is now. I truly love some of my old premie friends as brothers.

But the way Becky probably uses it, is like an acknowledgement that we are all equal as human beings with the variation of two sexes. Kind of a hippie/peace/love/generation thing...Come on people now, love your brother, everybody come together, try to love one another right now, right now, right now......!
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 16:01:19 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Brothers and Sisters???#%!
Message:
Carol - I just HATE being called 'sister' - it brings back all these old DLM memories. Sometimes when other premies called you that it sounded so condescending, plus I like being called by my name. The idea of actually being 'brotherly and sisterly' is fine, I just don't like being called that, or calling others that. My little brother calls me 'sis', and that is OK - but only from him.

Katie

P.S. I would have never guessed that you were the youngest child. It makes me 'see' another side of you.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:28:53 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Carol, I dig that song
Message:
that's all I wanted to say.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:43:54 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Carol, I dig that song too
Message:
especially the way Kurt Cobain sang it
(Katie you have brought out the monster, she was already there
and asking to come out and play)
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:49:22 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Where the wild things are...
Message:
Selena,
Your posts have been really funny today. Keep it up. If you are a monster, you are like one in the book 'Where The Wild Things Are' by Maurice Sendak. Fun to play with. VP
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:07:52 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Where the wild things are...
Message:
It feels so good to have some spare time!!
That was my favorite book to read to my kids when they were little
We used to play the monsters,
they would jump all over the place and they even made masks
and constumes. I still have it.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:16:55 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: more angry music
Message:
I just thought of this one: Concrete Blonde, with Johnette Napolitano. Their albums are uneven, but generally good. Do you have 'Mexican Moon'? It's not all angry, but there is an amazing song about Jonestown on it. (Plus it has a great Dia Del Muerto cover). She has a fantastic voice. I also really like Liz Phair, especially 'Exile from Guyville'.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:22:54 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Conctere Blonde
Message:
Beat you to it. Tho I like her earlier stuff better. My favorite:
I think it was just called 'concrete blonde'

it has 'Still in Hollywood' on it, Dance Along the Edge and (my favorite) Song for Kim ( I swear she is singing about a premie who killed herself here) If you don't have it I will be happy to copy it for you.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:28:52 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Concrete Blonde
Message:
I'd really like that. (Glad you have it, too.) I have never heard any of the earlier stuff except on the radio - I just have Mexican Moon and Walking in London.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 04:13:40 (EST)
From: Red Foley
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: more music
Message:
Yes, the early Concrete Blonde is great and the Liz Phair 'Exile...' is good, too!

Here's some cool, angry female music that I really like:
  • Blake Babies (early Juliana Hatfield)
  • Juliana Hatfield 'Hey Babe'
  • Cat Power 'What would the community think'
  • Kristin Hersh or Throwing Muses
  • P.J. Harvey


Cat Power is totally awesome!
Dark, mysterious, moody, great tension building stories
She's the best!
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 10:24:06 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: students recognize the Master
Message:
he touches our hearts, lights a Spark which carries us to Bliss. he speaks and we are lifted, in his presence we are enraptured.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 10:44:59 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: students recognize the Master
Message:
Interesting.I'm curious: Who exactly are you writing this sort of post for?
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:01:45 (EST)
From: John Smith-Ham
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: students recognize the Master
Message:
He is speaking to the devotee in each one of us, that longs to get out from under the tons of rotting rutabegas that have sprouted due to the heavy fertilizer of stupid opinions, sarcasm, cynicism, and general negativity with which we have buried the fields of our hearts that still yet pant to beat faster at the sound of the master's voice calling us, calling us, back to him to his sweet indescribeably delightful form.

oh, and ya know, it's just like soooo beautiful.

Speak yet further on, oh student, let your voice of truth ring louder and louder above the din of the wailing and g-nashing of teeth of these bearers of rotting veggies! Let not thy heart be deterred from thy true task!
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:40:36 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John Smith-Ham
Subject: growth (to JHS)
Message:
John,

You're getting better all the time. I'm still laughing..er, I mean meditating.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:01:09 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: John Smith-Ham
Subject: John's Master Satpal
Message:
If you don't mind, I just have a couple of questions for you. What's it like following Bal Baghaw Ji? Did you used to follow Guru Maharaj Ji? Is the routine the same (satsang, service, meditation, darshan)? Is your faith shaken by what you have read here?
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 02:10:17 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: students recognize the Master
Message:
whoever may want to know the view from the 'other side' of things.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 10:56:22 (EST)
From: Grrrrry
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: Dogs recognize their Master
Message:
He touches our hearts, lights a spark which carries us to bliss. He barks and lifts his leg, and the fire hydrant is showered with his presents.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:18:45 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Grrrrry
Subject: Dogs recognize their Master
Message:
Gee, I wonder who you are! :))
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:18:05 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Grrrrry
Subject: Dogs recognize their Master
Message:
Maybe the dog-master is a dog-mistress - a she-dog? It's all starting to make sense now. Jack I can see that you understood my true nature and my divinity long before I did. Your name for me is truly inspired!

Selena the Rabid DogJi
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:12:18 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Grrrrry + JSH
Subject: veggies and lifting legs
Message:
All praises to the lords of humour....the snot it runneth down my nose.....my breathe it comes in gasps....the soda comes out my nose....my jaw how it quivers.....thanks for the am laughter!
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:11:47 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: veggies and lifting legs
Message:
oh! was intrigued by the subject line. was picturing carrots, cucumbers, legs lifted...never mind!
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:14:50 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: nausea
Message:
Please spare me (us?) this shit. Save it for your devotionals, or start a premie site where you can inspire each other with this drivel.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:50:36 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: students recognize the Master
Message:
Okay, Red Fart, let's see... in passive-aggressive Premie language this means, 'Fuck you, ex-premies. I don't like what you're writing, and I'm angry. I hope you all rot in hell.'

Part of being in a cult is not being able to express your emotions or be hostile. You always have to appear placid and friendly.

You're a good little android, Red Fart.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:38:04 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: students recognize the Master
Message:
You won't recognize chit
because your nose is blocked
by the BS you've breathed in too long.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:20:20 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: students recognize the Master
Message:
he touches our hearts, lights a Spark which carries us to Bliss. he speaks and we are lifted, in his presence we are enraptured.

He touches our wallets, organizes revival meetings where we experience a 'group high,' in his presence we disconnect our brains and we are either lobotomized or bored to tears.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 09:48:27 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: e-mail regarding my Journey
Message:
I received an e-mail from an African person this morning regarding my Journeys entry on the web site. It was a very polite e-mail (although the person did NOT agree with my assessment of Knowledge), and I plan to answer it. One thing that the person said which I found curious was that he/she was a premie, but not of Prem Pal.

He/she also said:
Satguru Maharaj Ji exist whether some believe or not. See, the sun is shining, it shines whether you believe it or not - shinning on everyone. I think it about time Sri Prem Pal come to out to clear the air about the manifestation of the GOD-FATHER power and that he is no longer the Carrier of the Grace.

Did anyone else get an e-mail like this? What do you think?

Regards, Katie
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:37:05 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The forces of Satpal
Message:
I hear the distant rumble of the winds of war.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:52:40 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Guru Wars
Message:
Jim,

Would you please post ballbags website again. I forgot to bookmark it and can't find it on a search.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:47:06 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Guru Wars
Message:
It is:

Bal Bhagwan Ji
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:03:49 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Guru Wars
Message:
Thanks, I want to email the author. I know you have already, but I want to hear his rationalisations for myself.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:22:06 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Guru Wars
Message:
Yeah, pleas do. He told me he was going to some small village somewhere for a six week audit and would get mack to me on his return. I haven't heard from him yet. That was about six weks ago, I think. Say hi for me.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:46:13 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim-fat guru and diet
Message:
I am shocked to see goomradji's big brother after watching LOTU. He looks so different. (So portly-I think the guru buisness must supply good eats.) I was disappointed to see that the 'sons of guru Maharaji' link showed HIS sons (oh, great! Another generation of this!)I was thinking it was going to show him and his brothers, sons of the first guru. Good lookin' kids, though.

Off topic, how is that diet? I am thinking about trying it out before I put up my webpage.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:02:02 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Jim-fat guru and diet
Message:
Off topic, how is that diet? I am thinking about trying it out before I put up my webpage.

Hey, this low-carb diet rocks! I've had a chance to try every last tofu product in the world (mmmmm!), can eat roasted nuts and all the broccoli I want. Bread? What's that?

No, really, it's been great. I've lost about 8 pounds, I think. Maybe more.

The book, 'Protein Power', is by Richard Dawkins (joke! - no I can't recall what the guy'sname is. But it's good).
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:43:08 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: diet (off topic)
Message:
Oh, shit, not tofu...
I'm going to order the book. I could stand to lose about 20 lbs. myself. I can give up bread faster than steak and lobster anyway...Thanks.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:43:14 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The forces of Satpal
Message:
Jim, Katie:

That's incredible. It never occurred to me that Satpal would take the opportunity offered by Prempal's downsizing to leapfrog into the A-1 position. It only makes sense. He has Prempal in a bind. Never say he didn't learn anything in Congress!

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:01:11 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The forces of Satpal
Message:
Scott - Do you want to try and discuss this the guy who sent me the e-mail? As I said below, I'm not even sure he's a SatPal devotee, although knowing the name PremPal indicates that he is.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 21:45:13 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The forces of Satpal
Message:
Katie:

It just makes sense that Satpal would propagate the notion that Prempal was just 'holding the fort' until Satpal was finished with his 'preparation.' Since Prempal readily admits that he isn't the P.M. (Perfect, etc.) that sort of leaves the way clear for Satpal to do it. Clearly it won't have much appeal in the US, but possibly will detract from M's support in the third world and the Indian Diaspora. I think JW pointed this out. If that's the only portion of the 'market' that is growing then Prempal has made is miscalculation. The irony is that in the long run Prempal may not be the problem. We might actually have to shift focus. Pure speculation, however. It's a long way off.

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 14:00:38 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: e-mail regarding my Journey
Message:
It just so happens that I got a response to an e-mail that I sent pursuant to Sat Pal's (Bal Bagwan Ji's ) site telling them that I was a former devotee of Prem Pal and asking why neither acknowledges the other and asking why both claim to be the heir to Shri Han's perfect masterhood. Here's the response I got yesterday from somebody named 'Tarun':

'I had a long discussion with Jim Heller. He was the one who asked the same question as you. In fact, he gave me the ex-premie site. I was confused after reading it. I believe it to be true. But I have not lost faith in MY Guru.

The biography was copied from Hans Yog Prakesh and they have clearly left out the Maharaji episode. I was thinking to make changed to include it, but changed my mind.

You are a former devotee, but do you still practice the 4 techniques?

Best regards,
Tarun.'


If anyone else would like to correspond with this guy, who I guess maintains Sat Pal's website, his e-mail is: arora@raha.com

As I said in an earlier post, since it seems BM's possible audience of followers is mostly the Indian dispora, and a small number of westerners, it seems like he and Sat Pal are propogating to the same population. This could get VERY interesting. I think the more ex-premies communicate with the Sat Pal people and tell them about their experiences with BM the better. IMHO.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 15:37:20 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: all
Subject: more details about e-mail
Message:
I should have said that the person who wrote to me had an African (not Indian) name, and said that they had has Knowledge for 11 years. Isn't there an African Maharaji somewhere? He/She didn't mention Sat Pal (but did obviously know who Prem Pal was).

BTW, I am going to write this person back and discontinue the conversation. If any other ex would like to CONTINUE the conversation (politely), I'd be willing to forward the e-mail to them.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 04:00:41 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: yes more details
Message:
Why don't you give them mine, if they speak french?
Many people do in africa.

I can be polite and respectful, I'll do an effort anyway. You've taught me how!
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:53:57 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: yes more details
Message:
JM - I will forward the message to you (and tell the person that I am doing that). I am not sure if he/she speaks french (their name sounded East African), but I think your english is good enough to communicate with them.

Thanks,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 23:59:29 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Judex pecks
Message:
If you really wanted some action from Maharaji you would be doing more than just writing letters to Linda Gross. The way you are fooling yourself that what you are saying is legitimate is obvious in so many ways Jim. I don't give a shit what Joe or JW say. You're not even willing to try what others who think differently suggest. As long as some of the boys in the gang back you up, thank god you're off the hook again and back to business as usual.
And if anyone disagrees with you, just remember to get others to side with you against them, throw a few stones and hurt them back if you possibly can, Jim. Proud of yourself, are you?


Hey Judex,

I just found this little love note in the morning posts. Tell me, what the hell you're talking about, will ya'? I don't get it. I really don't. I know that you're REALLY pissed off that I don't respect some of the theories you're currently enchanted with but is this my fault? You haven't persuaded me, Judex. In fact, you've only bemused me. And that's really bugged you because you are oh so serious about all this stuff. And then you just try to throw it at me more and more. And you care SO much.... why? What's with you anyway?

It's not as if I've ever asked for your help, is it? Nor have I complained about how terrible my life is or anything like that. Why do you have to be so fucking dour? Really, if this Bradshaw guy is your excuse to be so rude as to psychoanalyze me here uninvited where even my former guru might read it (sorry, I know this is serious).

Listen, if you can justify Bradshaw's shame theories instead of just push them, I'll listen. Doesn't mean I'll agree, you know. But don't get so surly just cause I'm me, okay?

And what's with this reference to my letters to Linda Gross? Are you saying you DON'T want to see Maharaji have to either respond to us in some fashion OR formally explain for all to see that he won't? What kind of ex-premie are you, anyway? (That's another joke, Judex, not an invitation for you to go to town with your everything's-a-cult theory).

Oh yeah, on that point, you are a prime example of the common new age danger of irresponsibly twisting words beyond their real meanings. What you do with the word 'cult' is a joke. Worse, in order to get some mileage out of your new, special usage you've tried to stigmatize me as some sort of wannabe cult leader. Can't you see how STUPID this is?

Too bad Scott's gone off in a huff. He could -- and should -- have helped you through this one. Now, where's my laundry?
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:01:15 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Judex pecks
Message:
Jim:

Re:Hey Judex,

I just found this little love note in the morning posts. Tell me, what the hell you're talking about, will ya'? I don't get it. I really don't. I know that you're REALLY pissed off that I don't respect some of the theories you're currently enchanted with but is this my fault? You haven't persuaded me, Judex. In fact, you've only bemused me. And that's really bugged you because you are oh so serious about all this stuff. And then you just try to throw it at me more and more. And you care SO much.... why? What's with you anyway?

It's not as if I've ever asked for your help, is it? Nor have I complained about how terrible my life is or anything like that. Why do you have to be so fucking dour? Really, if this Bradshaw guy is your excuse to be so rude as to psychoanalyze me here uninvited where even my former guru might read it (sorry, I know this is serious).

Listen, if you can justify Bradshaw's shame theories instead of just push them, I'll listen. Doesn't mean I'll agree, you know. But don't get so surly just cause I'm me, okay?

And what's with this reference to my letters to Linda Gross? Are you saying you DON'T want to see Maharaji have to either respond to us in some fashion OR formally explain for all to see that he won't? What kind of ex-premie are you, anyway? (That's another joke, Judex, not an invitation for you to go to town with your everything's-a-cult theory).

Oh yeah, on that point, you are a prime example of the common new age danger of irresponsibly twisting words beyond their real meanings. What you do with the word 'cult' is a joke. Worse, in order to get some mileage out of your new, special usage you've tried to stigmatize me as some sort of wannabe cult leader. Can't you see how STUPID this is?


I'm soooo impressed that you're unimpressed, as this little tirade so manifestly witnesses. You've really convinced us of your detachment brother. It's so clear that, as you say, you're singularly interested in just going after those awful ideas you hate so much, and only hurting people as a side effect of your detached but caring rationality. (Although, to tell the truth, I still think you're secretly a little, 'that way.')

Now, where are those shorts I intended to send you for dinner?

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 13:37:03 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Think clearly, Scott
Message:
Scott,

You're not thinking straight. First, again, here's what Judex posted:

If you really wanted some action from Maharaji you would be doing more than just writing letters to Linda Gross. The way you are fooling yourself that what you are saying is legitimate is obvious in so many ways Jim. I don't give a shit what Joe or JW say. You're not even willing to try what others who think differently suggest. As long as some of the boys in the gang back you up, thank god you're off the hook again and back to business as usual.
And if anyone disagrees with you, just remember to get others to side with you against them, throw a few stones and hurt them back if you possibly can, Jim. Proud of yourself, are you?


I don't know what the hell she's talking about in her first two sentences. Do you? Perhaps one of you two could tell me just what to do if I 'really wanted some action from Maharaji'.

And really, Scott, don't you think it's a little offenseive to anyone who might possibly agree with me to suggest that they're only doing so because I've cajoled them somehow? Couple this with Judex' other posts about how I just want to hurt people, slice and dice them, blah blah blah, well that would get anyone's bakc up a bit, don't you think?

But, no that's not all: this is an anti-cult page of sorts, wouldn't you say? So tell me, what kind of reaction do you think Judex should expect accusing me of being a wannabe cult leader (not to mention, of course, how absolutely STUPID that criticism is). And it's not the first time she's said so either, is it? If not about me, right from the first when she started posting here she bitched about how worried she was that this, too, is a cult and that I'm the leader. Give me a fucking break! That's absolutely idiotic! What are the cult practices? That we discuss the 'other' cult we were in? That we try to persuade each other on points of disagreement and enjoy each others' confirmation on the rest? How absurd! I've never seen you too worried when people agree with what you've got to say. I've enver seen YOU to concerned that poor, little JW, lost little puppy that he is, needed independent advice before agreeing with anything YOU'VE said.

So, anyway, I basically tell Judex just that, taht I think her accusations are offenseive and her pyschology uninvited and misplaced. I think, quite frankly, I'm more than entitled to tell her worse -- which I have, of course -- but this post above, which you call a 'tirade'... well it's hardly that, is it?

Face it, Scott, you're really HURTING over something, aren't you? --- No, don't worry, I'm not going to play that game. I can speculate but really, what do I know? MAYBE you actually believe what you're saying and I should respect THAT fact, regardless of how wrong I think you are nonetheless. I think you missed that step here, Scott.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 17:09:46 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Think clearly, Scott
Message:
Judex said: I don't give a shit what Joe or JW say. You're not even willing to try what others who think differently suggest....
And if anyone disagrees with you, just remember to get others to side with you against them, throw a few stones and hurt them back if you possibly can, Jim. Proud of yourself, are you?


You're right. How could anyone possibly believe you're a stone thrower, or a rock pitcher? You've a perfect right to throw stones over that, to be sure. Calling her STUPID certainly beats clarity, making any sort of acknowledgment that you've done anything to evoke a lack of trust, in her or anyone, at any time. To tell the truth, I really think you've got this all sewed up. The most unjust criticism of all was that you're any sort of leader.

Face it, Scott, you're really HURTING over something, aren't you?

Me???

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:01:49 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: That's no answer, Scott
Message:
Scott,

Now it's YOU who sounds like a premie here. Sarcasm's okay by me IF it at least touches the questions and makes the point. Here, you haven't really done that, now have you?

1) What do you think Judex meant in her first two sentences:

If you really wanted some action from Maharaji you would be doing more than just writing letters to Linda Gross. The way you are fooling yourself that what you are saying is legitimate is obvious in so many ways Jim.

Come on. I assume you know what is your supporting and not just whom you're attacking. Well?

2) How do I get people to 'side with me'? Is that any different than the way you do?

3) How fair is Judex' criticism that this page is on the verge of becomming a cult in its own right and I'm the wannabe cult leader?
If you think there's any merit whatsoever to her complaint would you please explain yourself?
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:11:45 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's no answer, Scott
Message:
Jim:

It's a cold day in hell when you won't be able to score a few points.

1. I agree, there is not much to support the notion that you are not doing your part to scour M. But, why are you so pissed? My guess is that if you asked NICELY Judex would apologize. However, I may just be STUPID.

Come on. I assume you know what is your supporting and not just whom you're attacking. Well?

I expect this has something to do with the web mystique resulting from a posting pattern such that when there aren't sufficient premies on board to savage, you prowl around looking for exes to bully about their so-called 'new ageism,' or almost anything that smacks of faith or complexity. My God, are you really so dense you don't see this? You yourself have suggested that your posting patterns are 'sick.' I heartily agree. It is the fervent hope of the many of us who admire you that you will eventually do something about this. I leave it up to others to provide a nay, or a 'here here.'

2. How do I get people to 'side with me'? Is that any different than the way you do?

Decidedly!

3. How fair is Judex' criticism that this page is on the verge of becomming a cult in its own right and I'm the wannabe cult leader?

As I said, you won't get any argument from me as to whether you're a leader, cult or otherwise. I would not be opposed to your cultivation of genuine leadership, however.

Apart from the fact that I've recently purchased a $150 bicycle seat, for a $25 ass, which is about as comfortable as sitting on an iron-age farm implement, I am not really hurting much. Thanks for asking.

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:22:34 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: That's no answer, Scott
Message:
Scott wrote: Apart from the fact that I've recently purchased a $150 bicycle seat, for a $25 ass, which is about as comfortable as sitting on an iron-age farm implement, I am not really hurting much. Thanks for asking.

That's the funniest thing I've heard all week.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 22:20:41 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Scott,Rick,Jim
Message:
Dear Scott, and Rick,
Same here, I was just cracking up to that and not going to respond but then read Rick's post.

OK Jim,
I've been thinking a lot about all this. As I already stated and I assume by your ignoring it that you agree or backed away similarly to CD and did not respond to what I said about you and I and instead talked about me not reading premie posts (which was a side comment) being akin to Alaska and walruses it had me laughing and thinking of lotus flowers and bliss.(no offense Gerry) The reason I hesitate to write to you which probably has you doing back flips anyway is that you almost always get mad. That thread, whatever it was, about someone liking you and appreciating you. I have also been thinking about the fact that you speak for a lot of people here, I mean say just what they would have said themselves and that is important to me in all this. Anyway, I thought you would like my post. I called you obnoxious, I thought you'd laugh presisely because we do get under each others skin but it is no big deal to me. Is it a big deal to you? I like other parts of you as I said and am learning from the part of you that irritates me. Are you learning from the part of me that irritates you? We know why premies irritate us, because we use to be them. When you have a problem with someone there is usually something there to learn about or for yourself.
It is all good Jim, love that saying my student worker uses all the time. I do think that you attack ex's when there are no premies around, that is exactly what you did to me the first time, do you remember because I WILL look it up for you in the archives, just like you would do that when a premie is evasive.
I hope this doesn't read as an attack because it feels calm to me, just talking honestly. I even thought about emailing you instead of here on the forum but didn't see your address when I looked at a few of your posts this afternoon and I wasn't planning on this now it just happened. I like it when writing just kind of comes out easy. I hope this doesn't turn into a war because I don't want that with you or anyone for that matter but if it gets you pissed then I'll deal with that too, I guess.
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:54:54 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: You've got a way with words.
Message:
Robyn:

That was just beautiful, darlin'! WOW!

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 21:10:47 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: That's no answer, Scott
Message:
Scott,

. I agree, there is not much to support the notion that you are not doing your part to scour M. But, why are you so pissed?

I'm pissed at Judex because her charge is, as far as I can tell, absolutely unjustified. (Again, Judex, if you don't mind, I think you owe me some explanation).

I'm pissed at you because when I told her she was full of shit for saying that, rather than trying to understand what, if anything, she was talking about, you jumped to her defense. Thus SHE's attacking me, you don't know what for, but you vehemently oppose my trying to defend myself. Oh yes, I recall, I just don't listen, right?

My guess is that if you asked NICELY Judex would apologize.
However, I may just be STUPID.


Sorry, Scott, I'm not in the business of soliciting apologies.

I expect this has something to do with the web mystique resulting from a posting pattern such that when there aren't sufficient premies on board to savage, you prowl around looking for exes to bully about their so-called 'new ageism,' or almost anything that smacks of faith or complexity. My God, are you really so dense you don't see this? You yourself have suggested that your posting patterns are 'sick.' I heartily agree. It is the fervent hope of the many of us who admire you that you will eventually do something about this. I leave it up to others to provide a nay, or a 'here here.'

Scott, you know where I'm coming from. Maybe not as well as you think but better than you let on, I believe. I think much of what you enjoy as 'complex' is simply dense. So. There's the difference.

Now, just so we understand each other, in a sentence, if you don't mind, what are your views on astrology, channelling, ufo's, gurus, spirituality, 'inner-child' theory, and, while we're at it, quantum mechanics?

I think a little quantum mechanics, in small amounts, never hurt anyone. The rest, I do believe, is bullshit. Now one could speculate that my judgement's hasty and the result of indiscriminate baby-with-the-bathwater thinking. Alternatively, one might think that, hving been through the ringer once with Maharaji, I smartened up a bit.

Did I say that my posting patterns are 'sick'? Where? In what context?

Other than to say it's 'decidedly' different than the way you operate, you never explained how I get people to side with me. Being that you are, by implication, claiming that your way's better, I think I deserve a bit more of an explanation, don't you?

As for the 'cult leader' question, Scott, the point isn't that I'm not vying for any such thing. It's that Judex doesn't need to insult me like that. As for leadership itself, what is this, the Mickey Mouse Club? Leader of what? The idea just doesn't make sense to me.

Now, if the ex's began to arm themselves and started to mobilize, that'd be different. But, here, in our cyber discussion room, what's to lead? Nothing. So who needs leadership qualities? Not me, you nor anyone.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 23:01:27 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Pathetic
Message:
I'm pissed at you because when I told her she was full of shit for saying that, rather than trying to understand what, if anything, she was talking about, you jumped to her defense.

I thought she was attacking you? Are you saying it's my job to defend you? You see, I think I understand you pretty well in a larger sense. Prove me wrong.

Sorry, Scott, I'm not in the business of soliciting apologies.

So why are you apologizing? And while we're at it, why is it you always disappear when it's apparent (to at least a few people, and more importantly to you), that you're being a horses ass, and it's time to make amends. Poof! Where'd Jim go? Gone like Gabby Hayes, nostalgically into the sunset. (To return in the next movie, of course.)

Scott, you know where I'm coming from. Maybe not as well as you think but better than you let on, I believe. I think much of what you enjoy as 'complex' is simply dense. So. There's the difference.

'not as well as you think but better than you let on': The grammatical structure sounds like this is a non-falsifiable statement. A trap perhaps, or just your 'aw shucks' simplicity?

'Anything that's complex is dense.' That's deep. I admit that at one time I thought you were fair-minded. I'm letting you know that I don't think that any longer.

Now, just so we understand each other, in a sentence, if you don't mind, what are your views on astrology, channelling, ufo's, gurus, spirituality, 'inner-child' theory, and, while we're at it, quantum mechanics?

Astrology, etc etc. etc, up to 'while we're at it.' You don't really think I give those any credibility. IT'S NOT A QUESTION. As for my views on quantum mechanics, it's not simple. Oops, that's more than one sentence, and there's not a comic book version. And even if there were that's your problem. In a sentence, shit! Pearls before swine sort of thing, I guess. And to think I accused you of setting ambushes!

Now one could speculate that my judgement's hasty and the result of indiscriminate baby-with-the-bathwater thinking. Alternatively, one might think that, hving been through the ringer once with Maharaji, I smartened up a bit.

I have a simpler explanation. You're just a plain old garden variety bigot. That's my 'complicated' word for it. It's not what you say, but the calculated meanness with which you say it. The justification that M's ringer or something else has soured you on anything more expansive is of no interest to me. Apologize for being a horse's ass, then I'll consider the complicated explanations.

As for leadership itself, what is this, the Mickey Mouse Club? Leader of what? The idea just doesn't make sense to me.

Did you think I'd be surprised?

But, here, in our cyber discussion room, what's to lead? Nothing. So who needs leadership qualities? Not me, you nor anyone.

Not a matter of 'what.' Leadership has to do with the 'quality' of someone's contribution. As I've said before, yours is 2-D, like your conception of leadership see? (It's sort of a matter of responsibility, not leading a bunch of villagers in a revolution, see?) Probably not.

Did I say that my posting patterns are 'sick'? Where? In what context?

Don't remember, huh? And you were so cute!

Other than to say it's 'decidedly' different than the way you operate, you never explained how I get people to side with me. Being that you are, by implication, claiming that your way's better, I think I deserve a bit more of an explanation, don't you?

Not really. YOU asked the question. Jim, as you can probably tell I don't think I owe you poop.

As for the 'cult leader' question, Scott, the point isn't that I'm not vying for any such thing. It's that Judex doesn't need to insult me like that.

I'd say you're pretty thin-skinned, for a 'meat and potatoes' kind of guy.

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 00:32:42 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott T.
Message:
I remember thinking that during the doc postings, doc's
demand for respect was built around his insistance that
when he goes 'inside' he is god.

It played to two audiences. One, the buddist(or whatever)
new age, the power is just a oneness and we are really
the IT -crowd, and

Also, the darwinian view that we are what ever there is and
the power is unconcious on it's own.
Or however you would say that.

At the time of doc's first or second post, Jim said 'I respect
you' Then he asked for doc's understanding on his complaints about
rawat.
At the time I thought that THERE was the crack in the
darwinian view. It makes you vulnerable to those that
claim that THEY are it and it is just our non-understanding
of our true self that seperates us from recogniseing that we are
whatever god there is.

I know I might have missed some threads where this might have been
covered, but if jim has been pounceing on the new ageism
as you have mentioned, I wonder where he now draws the line. Jim?

You are right about short and sweet, but I would like to blabber
on about a related subject. Guess I'll just seperate it into
another post.

By the way Scott, I don't know if I have mentioned it before,
but I have been an avid reader of your posts for quite a while
and you are quite smart and articulate.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 15:34:13 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Crack in the armor.
Message:
bb:

Thanks for the compliment. I will have to mull over what you're saying about the crack in the Darwinian, or evolutionary armor. I missed the whole 'doc' series. The crack that Ernest Gellner sees in all evolutionary perspectives (both Darwinian and otherwise) is that they ultimately lead to an infinite regress. There's just no way around the problem that there's no 'first cause.' You can make light of this fact, but it is an incessant irritant that keeps coming up. A close friend of mine is a somewhat well known evolutionary thinker (Tom Dietz) and he acknowledges this problem. In his words, 'If you are honest and rigorous about your convictions concerning evolutionary scenarios you have to recognize that there can't be a first cause.' What you seem to be saying is that someone can claim to be the first cause themselves, and there's no evolutionary argument against it, other than to redundantly say 'you aren't.'

On second thought I do vaguely recall that thread. Maybe I didn't miss it completely. I may be getting too much exercise.

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 17:27:38 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Point Of Information!!!!!
Message:
I do not wish to engage in this food fight, but I cannot find Judex's post that Jim is quoting. Can one of you direct me to it? I gather that Judex doesn't give a shit what I say, but I would at least like to know the context in which she made that remark. I would like to mention that no one on this forum, at any time, has ever gotten me to 'side up against' anyone. Thought I would just clarify that.

Can one of you help me in finding Judex's post?
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 17:41:38 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: First year after (plus info)
Message:
Joe - It's in that enormous Thief and Liar thread, which is in the inactive index, and it's called 'Thanks Joe and Rick'.

BTW, I don't want to engage in this food fight either, but I do want to remind everyone how fragile and reactive people can be directly after leaving Maharaji's organization. I think the first year is very hard. Brian and I talk about this all the time, because we get to see it up close a lot - probably more than anyone else who posts on here (we get a lot of e-mail, etc.) I tend to forget how hard it can be for people, because it's been so long for me, but I am constantly being reminded.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:20:59 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: First year after (plus info)
Message:
Thanks, Katie. I found it. It WAS an enormous thread.

I hear what you are saying about recent ex-premies and how fragile one can feel. I suppose there are different schools of thought on this. Some might prefer the 'go easy' approach, and others might prefer the 'shock' approach.

One thing I wanted to clarify as well. I DID find therapy VERY helpful in sorting through the whole cult experience for myslelf, although I found that I wasn't even ready for therapy for the first couple of years after I left. [I sort of turned the therapist into a guru and that wasn't helpful.] But after that, it was a very positive thing and very helpful in getting my feet back on the ground.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:40:24 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: First year after
Message:
Hey JW,
I am not sure which approach is best for recently deprogrammed people (shock or go easy). I really wasnt't trying to make that point. I just know through recent experience that people tend to freak out about things that they would generally just brush off, and get very upset for what seems like no reason. Of course there IS a reason (a BIG reason) but it did take me a while to understand what was going on. (I am not pointing a finger at Judex here, by the way, should anyone think that).

I basically hibernated with two other exes during my first year after leaving M. One of the people I lived with (ex-ashram housemother) wouldn't even go out of the house except to go to work, and I wasn't much better. I lost all my premie friends, which at that point was all my friends, and of course I wasn't in any shape to go out and meet new people. In retrospect, that was a strange period of my life, but it was very helpful to have other people to go through it with. I didn't go to therapy because I couldn't afford it, and didn't know how to go about getting any low-cost help (plus I had NO IDEA how to talk about my involvement with DLM), but therapy would have been helpful. Going back to school helped a lot too.

P.S. Glad you don't think that therapy is b.s.!
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:45:31 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Another thing - music
Message:
Another thing that really helped me deprogram and re-enter was music. Specifically the kind of music that we didn't and/or weren't supposed to listen to as premies. I think Selena has mentioned this recently as well. It was very therapeutic for me.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:02:22 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Another thing - music
Message:
Thanks Katie,
I was just thinking these things..
I am indeed on a roller coaster. I don't have my pacifyer
anymore, not that I ever liked the dumb thing, but it was
some strange comfort.
Right now I am in my angry girl phase full blown (in case no one noticed) The last time I got like this I did all those
things, (again!) - drugs, the 'bad' music - hell even did the
musicians playing the music!! Funny thing was I still did my version of regular meditation and went to see God.
But this time is more real somehow. It is hard. I have been wondering if Judex is ok.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:08:23 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: First year after (plus info)
Message:
Katie,

You might be right in speculating that Judex might be having a bit of a hard time due to her recent exit from the cult. But that's still no excuse for her to flail at me as if I, too, have ever tried to capture her mind. Contrary to her own proclamation, there is no need for her to 'de-Jim' herself. There's also no need for her to try to enroll my inner child in daycare.

And Scott? What a disappointment is all I can say.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 00:09:36 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: all
Subject: First year after (plus info)
Message:
I am not as familiar as many about that first year after but I agree about how apparently vulnerable people are. I was thinking, reading this thread, about how I could relate to JW turning his therapist into the Guru. I too was helped by therapy but I had to warn the one who helped me most,' any new age psychobabble mumbo jumbo I am outta here'. I for one have not evolved to the point that I have room to accept ideas that are even remotely Guru like. Which, I believe, is one of the ways that it all really hurt me. I am very afraid of all things spiritual. Although I must say it is in there still, it is just something I cannot talk about or share, and perhaps it is kept safest that way.

I remember relating to the world and friends in the only way I knew how...like a premie. In fact I still at times do this I think and hate to see it in myself. In that way I think some of the ways Jim is SO unpremielike in his questioning of people could be good. Sort of models that you really don't have to be nice, be logical. My husband is fond of saying everyone may have a right to have an opinion but they do not have a right to have their opinion respected if it has no validity. A very un premie like idea.

I think that when I left I needed to see that people who were not premies could care and be supportive and close to eachother. I needed to learn that friendships are built over time not an immediate bond someone has because they share the secret of the Guru. And I needed to learn that you really don't have to get along with everyone. I see all these things being played out on the boards and I think it is very healthy.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 01:38:41 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: First year after (plus info)
Message:
Hey g's mom, (do you have a name?)

It took me twenty years (after BM) to even consider the spiritual side of myself. I'm still leery.

Love to you
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:02:31 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Point Of Information!!!!!
Message:
To: Jw
I apologise for saying you 'sided up with Jim'. It was unfair.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:12:30 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: JUDEX!
Message:
Judex,

Quit hiding and tell me what in the world this means:

If you really wanted some action from Maharaji you would be doing more than just writing letters to Linda Gross. The way you are fooling yourself that what you are saying is legitimate is obvious in so many ways Jim.

You know, I took a week off from the forum because I was getting exasperated with bullshit from people like you. Then I came back, good-natured (I thought), didn't really pick on anyone (except CD, of course, but he doesn't count). Then you started picking a fight with me all over again.

Fine, let's fight/argue/talk/discuss whatever.

This is an ANTI-cult page. If you want to accuse me of trying to exert MIND CONTROL over people you better have something better to back it up with than Scott's tepid sarcasm.

Well?
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:22:37 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Point Of Information!!!!!
Message:
Look as far as context goes this discussion as far as I am concerned started quite a few threads back. All the threads in question have been about feelings. They started after Jim stopped posting (about a week ago roughly). Recently after Jim came back, I watched his behaviour with CD and then I said to him I think he is a bully and then amended that to I think he was behaving like a bully.

Then I stopped posting for a while. Then I read the thread on Liar and Thief quite a while after it was written and I joined it and posted the comments to Jim. For me they were a result of stored-up anger or something that I can't communicate with Jim about my point of view, right or wrong.

I never feel that any comment of mine which is not in agreement with Jim he ever listens to or even tries to understand. He just wants to debate. He just wants to be right. That's what I feel sometimes. That is maddening, like how CD maddens him.

Don't I have any validity in Jim's eyes? Does it matter if I do or don't? Of course the answer is no. He doesn't have that much power. He is just another person posting like everyone else.

My points of contention are basically:

1. I do not like the attitude that Maharaji is some kind of evil genius who deliberately set out to ensnare innocent people, used his powers of persuasion to capture them with ideology he was cyncially using just to get their money, suck their young lives away and throw them out when he was finished. It is such a victim trip. How can people continue to give Maharaji so much power and also so much malignant intention? However if they want to that is up to them - but why pin people down who don't agree with this and bash them around? Jim has said he doesn't believe there is a god. He only believes in 'rationality' but he is not consistently rational either. He also always wants to win and can't cope with varying points of view or just plain simple old discussion IMO.

2. I won't stand by and watch CD being treated the way he has been. That is just total persecution. Bullies always target people who can't stick up for themselves. Jim has percieved that I am in this boat and therefore anything I say to disagree with him he uses bully tactics such as: try to embarass or humiliate me by taking statements out of context, and it appeared to me he got others to side with him - he said that NDY whoever had been invented by him,Katie and JW I think. Whatever.

However what is the good of splitting this Forum into factions or making this into a war. Luckily I think this too will pass. I a agree everyone has a right to their own point of view. And I a right to mine. I suppose peoplec can use the effigy of Maharaji as a punching bag till the end of time and fair enough, it doesn't hurt him. I have a lot to learn about standing up for myself and yet not attacking others. I don't know how to do this stuff very well. But at least I didn't just shut up, or leave the Forum. I am here still. I am interested in learning more. But to do that I don't have to tow Jim's line on 'rationality' and read books that are out of print. Nor do I think he should agree with me. I gave the analysis information because he asked for it.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:27:36 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: tired of reading about Jim
Message:
Why doesn't anyone discuss ME this way?? me!! me!!!
Selena!!! What do I have to do?

ok, made my point maybe. Jim is gettin all the attention.
I am jealous.

- youngest only speaking here? I don't
freaking know. :-)
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 14:03:56 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: tired of reading about Jim
Message:
Rabid dog and angry woman,

I think you are great. How's that for some discussion? Did you get my email pictures? If so, email me when you get a chance...

This reminds me of a few times listening to my parents when they argued. I liked (loved) both of them and agreed with points of view on both sides, so it really hurt to listen to it. That is how it feels reading Jim, Scott, and Judex on this topic right now. (Not exactly THAT painful, but it's the closest analogy I could come up with). Must be that bossy oldest child peacemaker in me who wants to call them up and straighten this whole thing out. I may have to quit reading this for a while. sniff.

Mindin' my own buisness,
VP
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:46:39 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Listen, Judex
Message:
I never feel that any comment of mine which is not in agreement with Jim he ever listens to or even tries to understand. He just wants to debate. He just wants to be right. That's what I feel sometimes. That is maddening, like how CD maddens him.

Again, you REALLY have a way with hyperbole don't you? First, how in the world do you distinguish between ideas that other people don't hear or understand and those they just don't agree with? Judex, you're talking a kind of psychobabble talk -- yes, that's what I call it -- that's dangerously misleading. You're not the first person I've heard accuse people who disagree with them of not listening. That's such a common way to fight back. But, listen (no pun intended(, if it isn't a propos, it isn't.

I've listened to you rcomplaints about me and -- guess what? -- I've even understood them (I think). That is, all except the ones I've asked you about in the post above. I just think you're wrong. Can't you accept that? It means if you want to persuade me you're going to have to keep trying. Sorry.

What CD does is a whole other thing. How dare you compare me to him.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 21:57:19 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Listen, Judex
Message:
Jim right now I am in the middle of organising a 'sleep over' for my daughter & her friend (at my miniature house)

and she HAS to have the best of EVERYTHING ! lollies, t.v, videos, nachos aaand of course dessert!

that was Sarah adding her bit

So I do respect this communication and will answer your questions with the carefully thought out reply they deserve (after I get my PHD in whatever I need to get it in) - after I get my child sorted out. I'm sure you understand and I'm glad things are getting civilized again it seems. I appreciate your reply.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 09:04:38 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: To Jim - as good as it gets
Message:
Jim here is my reply to you about the recent dispute. I am deliberately not answering your questions because if you read what I said again, you will see what I meant at the time in context.

1. I don't think it's so bad or unhealthy to have reasonable disagreements

2. I don't want to get confused with other people. I think it's important for me to keep my own voice and for you to reply to me about what I say.

3. This is tiring to put into words. Look the whole idea of this Forum for me is for us to help one another. If I see something that I think is holding back the growth of the group or its well being then I am going to say something, for my own benefit.

4. If I contribute an idea or a thought, or an experience, or something I know something of, do I have to justify it and categorically prove it? By doing that, to me, I kill it. It's a work in progress. Nothing in my mind or life is fixed in concrete at the moment except that I am not going back to a cult.

5. The normal way that healthy people handle 'discussion' is that we each give our opinions, we either agree or disagree with one another, and hopefully we think about what each other said. This may benefit us both. Maybe if we got something going, we could build something together. Our ideas could form new structures, take us new places we have never been. However this can only happen when people are treated as equals, with respect and when they are honest and have the same intentions. E.g. to play. To recover. To heal. To express feelings. To share (and not agendas such as to win, to cover up, to not change, to form a hierarchy, to live in fear, to always be right, etc. My agenda might be hidden from myself - but how will I see it if someone else doesn't nudge me about it?)

6. If people aren't playing the same game, they basically can't play with each other. That's a shame, but it's okay.

7. Where I am coming from is I want to learn and grow and move on. I want to make the most of my time. I do not wish to remain stuck in anger, resentments and blame for the past. I want to cross the bridge, leave the cult; I want to be free to think, to talk, to relate and to do basically everything that I haven't been doing since I've been listening to M for nearly 5 years. I also wish to help others who want to be on this kind of journey because they want to move on.

8. I don't have all the answers.

9. I don't like to see anyone, how big or small, treated like dirt, as if they don't matter. That is not forward movement.

10. If you don't want to listen to any other viewpoint then your own, how can you be in a position to give others assistance or support? We are independent and yet inter dependent. Who says I can't say something that may be of use to you - because I want to benefit you and me? Take it or leave it. I don't have to 'prove' anything according to your standards. I don't need to prove that proving things is not what I want to do right now. Do you have to prove that your advice is perfect? This is not the right stance in my view.

11. Can you please not select little parts of my statement and wave them around like evidence, belittling and insulting me with your mind-power and word-use ability? Can you just read it, see if there is anything you agree with or disagree with, tell me about it if you want to, and we can keep discussing it? But not if you start out assuming you are right and I am not.

Whether you like it or not, none of this may be true, and Zen could be the New World religion.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:33:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Judex, that's not good enough
Message:
Can you please not select little parts of my statement and wave them around like evidence, belittling and insulting me with your mind-power and word-use ability? Can you just read it, see if there is anything you agree with or disagree with, tell me about it if you want to, and we can keep discussing it?

Judex, the simple answer to this is no and no. Look, if you can't stand by something you say then have the integrity to deal with it. You said:

If you really wanted some action from Maharaji you would be doing more than just writing letters to Linda Gross. The way you are fooling yourself that what you are saying is legitimate is obvious in so many ways Jim.

Guess what? I didn't like that. Now, either that means something, in which case you're not doing too good a job making sure the people you're communicating with think you care that they understand you or it doesn't, it which case you should deal with it.

Well?
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:38:23 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: clarification
Message:
Now, either that means something should be Now, either it(i.e. your statment) means something.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 15:15:40 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: as good as it gets
Message:
Judex,

Those are all the things that I've been thinking and feeling and trying to say but you said them much better than me. Thanks.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:19:08 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: To Jim - as good as it gets
Message:
Judex:

I feel that this is a compelling and thorough statement. It is not only a more than adequate explanation of your personal position, but is thought provoking. In fact, it is as good a statement of the philosophy of pragmatism as any I've seen from John Dewey. Unfortunately the response is utterly predictable, which in the context of pragmatic philosophy is no response. At this point I think you've earned the right to just go see the sights.

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 01:47:09 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Point Of Information!!!!!
Message:
Judex,

you are awesome

Even if I don't agree with all everything you say!

Affectionately,
Gerry, aka NDYW, etc. lokkzhgb (the last bit added by new, still nameless, kitty)
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 16:52:58 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Point Of Information!!!!!
Message:
Judex, and Gerry:

you are awesome

I'll second that sentiment (in my typically unsentimental way.) How do you talk big like that, anyway?

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 21:45:48 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Birth Order
Message:
I hope everyone doesn't regard this as an excessively frivolous thread start, but I am really curious as to the birth order of the people who post on here. BTW, this was inspired by Gerry, ...uh, I mean Indie Yahweh... well you know what I mean.

I am the oldest of three children(as everyone's probably guessed). So is my friend and co-conspirator, VP. I know that Robyn, JW, and Brian are middle children. Anyone else care to reveal what THEY are? I'm interested.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 22:10:37 (EST)
From: Ind..er, Gerry (I think)
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Birth Order
Message:
Middle, but what is the significance of birth order? I've heard some theories, oldest is the leader type, middies are mediators, (I really relate to that) youngest is something else.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 22:22:29 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Ind..er, Gerry (I think)
Subject: Birth Order
Message:
Gerry, I just thought you might be the youngest after that Indie Yahweh stunt! Reminds me of something my little bro would do...

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 10:36:19 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Ind..er, Gerry (I think)
Subject: Birth Order
Message:
Well mister NYPD, Gerry, is that your 'twin' :) and a middle like me too!

To all,
I use to have a series of tapes on Birth Order that I ran across while I worked as a secretary for the County Day care program here in Bradford Co., PA. I use to listen to them on a walkman while walking on a track some years back. Unfortunately my oldest daughter didn't value them as much as I and taped music over them. Kids! Unfortunately I won't remember a lot but here is a bit of what I remember.
The idea is that 1st children get so much verbal and intense individual attention from there parents (1st children almost always have tons of infant pictures, proportionately to other siblings) that they, 1. relate very well to adults and 2. They have a very strong desire to please their parents. They work well independantly and have leadership qualities.
I think I should say here that any of these characteristics can be exchanged with other birth order siblings or just be different because of abuse or extrenuating circumstances.
Middle children are the peace makers, the referres(sp), they get in and stir things up and then back away and watch the show. They are good with people and adaptable.
Youngest children see life through rose colored glasses. By the time they came along mom and dad were tired and more laid back and so receive less dicipline.
Only children, I don't remember much about this group except they are similar to first children because they are and that first children who become oldest children suffer some from having to share there parents with their siblings, that must be why Jessica was so mean to Jade and my oldest sister use to lie on the couch and bark orders at the rest of us while she was babysitting! :)
There are many missing areas here, all the inbetween children who aren't 1st, last or middle.
I think I'll call that day care office and see if they still have the original tapes lying around somewhere. I was amazed at how right on the discriptions were for me and my family and friends who heard them. So many things effect us, our personalities, who we become and continue to grow into. This is just another very interesting measure.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 22:11:20 (EST)
From: RT
Email: ommm
To: Katie
Subject: New Birth Order
Message:
I am the first of two. Mistakes I made; my sister, 4 years younger, did not, like following an Indian Rawat. Now she has a lovely family, 2 great kids, and a beautiful home, plus she & hubby have master's degree. My master's degree is in farenheit,
Bachelor's in Engineering.

She: equity, me, infinity. She: security and the family path, me, freedom and the inner path. Duh. Did I miss something?
Oh well..hit reset!

RT
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 22:26:52 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: New Birth Order
Message:
Dear RT - You sound like me, so don't say it was a mistake, please! Maybe it's just a different way to go. I am the oldest, but rebelled against having to take care of everyone and didn't get married until I was almost 40. Took me ten years to get thru school. No kids, by choice - I felt like I had already HAD kids, and my husband, being the oldest too, didn't really want them either. Everyone is different.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 22:39:26 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: New Order
Message:
Good band! Thanks for the memory, Gerry or whoever you are. I made it through a lot of shit dancing to them.
Katie, I am the youngest birth order wise. and , I am going to blow the theory
because my sister and I are 12 years apart.
Those birth order theories lose their potency at that
point. I suppose one could revert to the only child syndrome for me, but it's not that simple.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 23:33:41 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: New Order
Message:
You're right, Selena. Actually I just started this thread because I was SURE that Gerry was the youngest. But he's not so that blows my theory.

Katie

P.S. Favorite Courtney Love line: 'I don't do the dishes - I throw them in the crib!' (I hope this doesn't shock anyone - I had to take care of my younger siblings a lot so I can relate.)
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 10:39:54 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Selena
Subject: New Order
Message:
Dear Selena,
Hi, yes that is true you became a 2nd 1st or only child with a bit of other shit thrown in because you weren't really but then I didn't have to explain that to you did I! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:59:08 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: More like an only
Message:
Robyn,
Did you read the birth order book? I did and I thought it was really fascinating because it described my family growing up and my family now very accurately. Not everything, but at least 85% of it. Since I am the oldest and the next child didn't come for a long time, the book said that makes me more like an only than a first born. And I am, unfortunately. (No offense onlies. There are lots of good things about us, too. But we are the most likely to need psychotherapy-hahahahahahahaha!!!!) VP
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:41:05 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: More like an only
Message:
How weird that we are onlies in reverse order!
Oh mY GaWd, I can jsut *sense * Jim cringing!!!
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:04:19 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: More like an only
Message:
If Jim says birth order is New Age psychobabble, I am going to object strenuously. (I bet even Dawkins doesn't think that!)
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 21:55:11 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: More like an only
Message:
If Jim says birth order is New Age psychobabble, I am going to object strenuously. (I bet even Dawkins doesn't think that!)

Katie,

I don't say any such thing. I heard a good documentary about birth order just last week. No, it sounds like a good theory. Who's Dawkins, by the way?
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 11:13:26 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Selena--onlies
Message:
It makes perfect sense to me :)
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:55:49 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: More like an only
Message:
sign me up for pshchotherapy. I'm an only too, by your definition. Oh well.
(: x
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:57:13 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: x
Subject: x-More like an only
Message:
x,
You seem VERY sane to me. I was just making a joke. The author says that he sees more only children and first borns in his practice. I'm sure this may be true, but it isn't a scientific study. VP

I don't want to imply that therapy is only for loonies, though. I think that everyone can benefit by a little peek inside.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 22:57:25 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: VP
Subject: More like an only
Message:
Dear VP,
No I just listened to those tapes. Don't suppose you know the name of the book?
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 11:03:47 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: The name of the book
Message:
...escapes me. And I lent it to a friend, so it's not here. The title is something like,'The Birth Order Book-why you are the way you are.' I cannot remember the name of the author. (Katie do you know?)

I think it was worth reading, and it is very short, too. BTW, I guessed almost everyone here correctly except for Carol and bb, who I thought were first borns. (bb is the first born male, so he does fall into the category of the first born a bit, being the first born of his gender.)
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 23:39:21 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Birth Order
Message:
Katie and Gerry, I am youngest: 5 yrs youger than my sister and 10 years younger than my brother. Carol
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 00:09:03 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Birth Order
Message:
Your question is apparently much less frivolous than 'my why are big wigs big wigs ' one which sits neglected and alone among posts. I find it embarrassing and I think I should post and post until it works its way to the bottom and then into the oblivion of the archives.

I am the eldest of two sisters...or is that oldest? My POOR little sister used to be SO EMBARRASSED by my Guru behavior. Traveling on a plane and look over to see your sister under a sheet meditating...have her where that stupid porcelain neclace to Junior High. Trying to convert your friends...she took a Guru pic and wrote...poo poo on Guru....she was 10 I wwas 13. Oh did I pull her hair over that...I was a devotee but I was 13. She and I are very close now. I envy that she has always been so much more levelheaded than I and would never have been sucked into the cult.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 16:29:41 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: Birth Order
Message:
Hey G-mom,
I really liked your story. My sister is two years younger than me, and she got knowledge about 4 months after I did (late 72, early 73). She was 14 and I was 16. Not only that, but almost ALL our friends got knowledge too. I am talking 15-20 people. So it was kind of fun. I don't think the older premies knew what to make of us because we were all so young.

My sister and her friends had a Divine Light Club in high school - officially an extracurricular activity. She still has the HS yearbook with a picture of the 'Divine Light Club' in it - it is a SCREAM: a group of kids who are all wearing long dresses or ties, Maharaji buttons, and looking very solemn and/or blissed out. I will see if I can get it and scan it for you.

Katie
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 20:38:27 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Birth Order
Message:
i would love to see that katie!
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 22:10:24 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: Birth Order
Message:
I'll see if I can get her to copy it and send it to me. She probably would if I promised not to say which 'Divine Light Club' member she is!

G-mom - when did you get knowledge, and when did you leave? I know you've said on here before, but I've forgotten.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 23:14:44 (EST)
From: g's
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: me
Message:
I recieved knowledge in Jan 1975. I was 13. I left around 1979. In Miami, at that time, there was really only one other teen premie and I wish there was some way I could get in touch with her. She and I were friends and she too became disenchanted. We parted ways later and have lost touch with eachother for many years.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:50:42 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Divine Club
Message:
Can you imagine meeing up with fellow divine club members at a high school reunion?
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 00:19:07 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Birth Order
Message:
Youngest of two.
Rick
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 00:29:59 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Birth Order
Message:
Rick, Katie, et al.

Oldest of four. Sometimes I feel like I'm the oldest of six.

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:21:45 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: eldest here
Message:
but you probably already guessed.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:36:35 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: eldest here
Message:
i missed my cue, so--a bit tardily--what Maharaji is doing is not a cult.

what Maharaji offers is the most beautiful thing I have encountered in my entire life and in fact so powerfully beautiful that it saved my life.

Maharaji showed me that life is worth living. I would never have learned how precious each moment, each breath is without the kind and constant guidance of my Master.

his doors are always open--any individual is free to leave at any time, and incredibly, free to return at any time as well. and either way no one will make a big deal of it. it's beautiful and he is true.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 10:48:42 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: eldest here
Message:
Red,
I read your short post that you are the eldest and then this one, which I was just going to ignore as I do all your posts but then I thought maybe you were going to talk about BM's birth order! But no you just insist on this spuing this drivel. Just get a sandwich sign and walk around on the side lines and we promise to look over at you every so often...promise.
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:02:34 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Birth Order
Message:
Katie: I'm the youngest of two (older sister).( I don't think I can post my genogram).

Paul
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 12:38:27 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Katie
Subject: Birth Order
Message:
I am the eldest of four pharisees.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 16:23:26 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Birth Order-thanks for answers
Message:
Thanks for answering my question, everyone. Actually, Robyn knows a lot more about birth order dynamics than I do. I just know about being the oldest through experience, and about being the middle and youngest from watching my sister and brother (I came from one of those classic 3-kid families). I had never really thought about being the oldest or youngest in a 2 sibling family (no middle child - which makes a huge difference) It's an interesting question because that's the size family that many people have today.

BTW, I guess that Jim is the youngest (I thought he was an only, but I know he has a sister).
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 16:56:12 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Birth Order-thanks for answers
Message:
Katie, care to guess what mine is? (though I've already said my birth order on this Forum, maybe you weren't taking notes.)
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 17:19:33 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Birth Order of John K.
Message:
Yeah, you are either 6th of 8, or 8th of 10. Something incredible, anyway. I can't imagine it, although I did have a friend who was 11th of 12 (all planned.)
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:05:45 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Birth Order of Jim
Message:
Katie,
I thought Jim was a first born.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:14:29 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Birth Order of Jim
Message:
You might be right - I'm just guessing. I have already guessed wrong on most of the other people on the forum.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 19:15:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Birth Order-thanks for answers
Message:
Oldest. Can I go now?
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 21:02:18 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com
To: Katie
Subject: Birth Order
Message:
Katie, I was the youngest of two boys, by ten years. Both my brother and father are dead now, however.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 15:07:19 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: david f.
Subject: Birth Order
Message:
Thanks David, and I am sorry about your father and brother. I am the oldest living person on my father's side of the family (that I know of, anyway). It's sort of a creepy feeling - like 'you're next!' My parents were both only children, plus there were some family fights, so I don't have very many living relatives.
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Date: Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 00:04:44 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: BO
Message:
Out of 6 kids, I was second.
All the rest were girls.
They are very funny at big dinners. When we are grouped around
a table we go into high comedy.

As a premie I was wierd during most other moments with them.
But the comedy moments remained, luckily
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 07:04:05 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Birth Order - Katie
Message:
Katie I am middle of three girls, but have an older brother by my father's first marriage who we hardly ever saw. Trying to help him overcome his con-fusion quite recently about how my dad left him when dad remarried. He seemed to think we had a great life - I had to let him in on a few home truths.

It's good somehow to share the truth - no-one had a perfect family did they? Any Bradies here?

PS - why are you doing this - do you think we are all having sibling rivalry or something? Tell more!
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 09:32:21 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Judex
Subject: Birth Order - Katie
Message:
Dear Judex,
Doesn't suprise me, I'm the middle of 5 girls and I've found middles like middles!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 09:40:36 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Birth Order why?
Message:
Dear Jude - Actually I just did it out of idle curiosity, and to get to know some of the people here a little better! I think it is interesting to learn about people's families. Also, I am always curious to find out who else is the oldest in their family. I am an oldest child married to an oldest child - this isn't 'supposed' to work, but works very well (because of certain factors in both our lives that don't fit the theories!).

Take care,
Katie
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