Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 14

From: Jun 23, 1998

To: Jun 30, 1998

Page: 5 Of: 5



g's mom -:- 'Maharaji vs Maharaj Ji' -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 00:49:21 (EST)
__Jim -:- 'Maharaji vs Maharaj Ji' -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:52:55 (EST)
____JW -:- 'Maharaji vs Maharaj Ji' -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:52:08 (EST)
______Gail -:- New song -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 15:31:23 (EST)
__Gail -:- 'Maharaji vs Maharaj Ji' -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:00:23 (EST)
____Jim -:- No kidding - Gail and Becky -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:07:25 (EST)
______Becky -:- No kidding - Gail and Becky -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:27:47 (EST)
____Katie -:- Good golly, girl! -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:52:45 (EST)
______G's mom -:- thanks for info (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 01:05:02 (EST)

bftb -:- What happens when... -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 16:30:15 (EST)
__Joy -:- What happens when... -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 17:24:03 (EST)
__JW -:- What happens when... -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 17:27:26 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- EV' purpose -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 17:55:31 (EST)
____RT -:- EV/DLM web site name>>> -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:48:51 (EST)
__Robyn -:- What happens when... -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:25:33 (EST)
____x -:- Maharaji knows... -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:13:40 (EST)
______Judex -:- Maharaji knows... -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:07:37 (EST)
__Al -:- What happens when... -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:13:17 (EST)
____Al -:- another thought... -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:44:02 (EST)
______JW -:- another thought... -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 01:39:14 (EST)
________VP -:- sign of the times? -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 08:59:21 (EST)
________Al -:- another thought... -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 10:37:34 (EST)
__________Judex -:- another thought... -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:29:10 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Vacillation -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 17:10:53 (EST)
__________JW -:- Vacillation -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 00:27:46 (EST)
____________Judex -:- Vacillation -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:40:10 (EST)
__________Gail -:- Pig's ear -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:19:56 (EST)
____________Jean-Michel -:- Good old recipe! -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:46:48 (EST)
____________Katie -:- 'friends' -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 11:06:19 (EST)
______________Jean-Michel -:- old 'friends'? -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 11:33:00 (EST)
______________VP -:- 'friends' -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 21:24:34 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- What happens when... -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:39:31 (EST)
____Al -:- What happens when... -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:47:53 (EST)
______Judex -:- What happens when... -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:44:24 (EST)
________Katie -:- M's charisma? -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:46:16 (EST)

Jim -:- Maharaji party! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 16:19:59 (EST)
__Richard -:- Maharaji party! -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 05:41:38 (EST)
__G's mom -:- Maharaji party! -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 01:43:36 (EST)
__Gerry -:- Maharaji party! -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:43:36 (EST)

Gail -:- MJ THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 14:34:49 (EST)
__Rick -:- MJ THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:14:31 (EST)
__Jim -:- Alright, Gail!! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:21:40 (EST)
____Gail -:- Alright, Gail!! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:25:27 (EST)
______PaulR -:- Alright, Gail!! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:39:50 (EST)
__Selena -:- MJ THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:47:12 (EST)
____Al -:- Congrats Gail! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 16:24:22 (EST)
____x -:- MJ THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 16:30:05 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Selena THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:38:38 (EST)
__Paul -:- MJ THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 16:33:11 (EST)
__Jethro -:- MJ THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 16:49:13 (EST)
__Lg -:- MJ THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:28:21 (EST)
__VP -:- MJ THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:29:17 (EST)
__Robyn -:- GAIL THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:35:35 (EST)
__JW -:- MJ THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:30:24 (EST)
__Carol -:- MJ THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:34:40 (EST)
__Katie -:- MJ THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:56:51 (EST)
__RT -:- Freedom, Freed-om -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:41:07 (EST)
____Katie -:- 'Think' -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 10:57:07 (EST)
__Brian -:- GAIL, THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 23:04:12 (EST)
__pam -:- MJ THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 00:08:07 (EST)
____Mark -:- True-Woman THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 00:45:21 (EST)
____premieJi -:- more about the restaurant,Gail -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 01:00:24 (EST)
______Gail -:- THE CHEF -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:31:35 (EST)
________Mirabai -:- THE CHEF -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 06:11:06 (EST)
__________Judex -:- THE CHEF -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:08:29 (EST)
____________Mirabai -:- THE CHEF -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:27:08 (EST)
________Judex -:- THE CHEF -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:00:48 (EST)
____Jim -:- Scam, pam -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:25:29 (EST)
____Gail -:- MJ THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 09:42:53 (EST)
__G's mom -:- happy for you... -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 00:39:38 (EST)
____red heart -:- happy for you... -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:57:01 (EST)
______Rick -:- happy for you... -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 10:10:09 (EST)
______g's mom -:- Yes I am HAPPY for her -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 01:22:53 (EST)
__Becky -:- MJ THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:19:02 (EST)
____Robyn -:- MJ THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:22:56 (EST)
____VP -:- BECKY THIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 15:48:35 (EST)
______Becky -:- VPTHIS IS FOR YOU! -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:19:32 (EST)
________VP -:- Becky -your quest -:- Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:18:30 (EST)
__red heart -:- this is not his mailbox -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:53:26 (EST)
____Katie -:- this is not his mailbox -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 10:04:21 (EST)
______Jethro -:- this is not his mailbox -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:53:44 (EST)
________Judex -:- this is not his mailbox -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:14:44 (EST)
________Katie -:- this is not his mailbox -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:56:11 (EST)
____Rick -:- this is not his mailbox -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 10:15:20 (EST)
______PaulR -:- Whooooops -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 13:10:43 (EST)
______Mirabai -:- this is not his mailbox -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 06:31:00 (EST)
____Anon -:- this is not his mailbox -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 17:46:29 (EST)

bftb -:- Was Yusef Islam ever a premie? -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:57:28 (EST)
__JW -:- Was Yusef Islam ever a premie? -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:08:14 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Cat Stevens -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 17:01:19 (EST)
______Carol -:- Islam -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 20:23:25 (EST)
__Jim -:- Roberta Flack -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:11:45 (EST)
____Jim -:- Michael Bolton -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:16:33 (EST)
______x -:- celebrity premies -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:32:05 (EST)
________bftb -:- inquiring hearts want to know -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:52:17 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Jimmie Dale Gilmour -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:10:31 (EST)
____________JW -:- JGilmore -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:14:16 (EST)
______________Joy -:- Jimmie Dale Gilmore -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 20:48:48 (EST)
____________bftb -:- Jimmie Dale Gilmour -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:31:36 (EST)
______________Jim -:- My note to Jimmie -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:02:30 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Jimmie spreads the word -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:08:49 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- The Kahns -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:32:56 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Scott and bftb -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:45:02 (EST)
______Jim -:- Hear Bolton give satsang! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:28:48 (EST)
______Jim -:- Hear Bolton give satsang! -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:28:49 (EST)
____Vincent -:- Roberta Flack -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:31:26 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Roberta Flack -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:57:38 (EST)
______Jim -:- Roberta Flack -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:03:37 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Roberta Flack -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:20:21 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- The Soft First Commandment -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:31:37 (EST)
__________Jim -:- The Soft First Commandment -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:48:18 (EST)
______bftb -:- Roberta Flack -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 13:31:34 (EST)
__VP -:- Was Yusef Islam ever a premie? -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:08:32 (EST)
____Jim -:- Michael Nouri? Of course -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:41:20 (EST)
______Jim -:- Nouri spreads the word -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:47:52 (EST)
________Jim -:- Nouri spreads the word (pt 2) -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:54:10 (EST)
__________VP -:- Nouri spreads the word (pt 2) -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:01:43 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Nouri spreads the word (pt 2) -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:04:11 (EST)
______________VP -:- Cigar Efficianado? -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:13:32 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Cigar Efficianado? -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:38:40 (EST)
__________________VP -:- Cigar Aficianado? -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 23:36:34 (EST)
____Red Foley -:- Kurt Cobain was a Premie! -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 03:24:16 (EST)
______Anon -:- Anyone know John Mills? -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 07:39:12 (EST)
________Jim -:- How much will you give me? -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 21:48:51 (EST)
__________Anon -:- How much will you give me? -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:24:02 (EST)
________CD -:- Orlando -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 01:42:33 (EST)
__________Anon -:- Orlando -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:33:49 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Orlando rainbow = sundog? -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 11:11:39 (EST)
______Katie -:- Then Courtney must be an ex! -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:48:45 (EST)
________Red Foley -:- Then Courtney must be an ex! -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:18:12 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Defending Courtney -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:57:25 (EST)
____________John -:- Defending Courtney -:- Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 13:52:17 (EST)
____________Red Foley -:- Defending Courtney -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 02:01:21 (EST)
______________Selena -:- Defending Courtney -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 14:27:55 (EST)
________________Katie -:- Defending Courtney -:- Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 14:38:49 (EST)

RT -:- Even Cowgirls get the Truths -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:24:13 (EST)
__Katie -:- Even Cowgirls get the Truths -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:36:08 (EST)
____Jim -:- Even Cowgirls get the Truths -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:08:22 (EST)
______RT -:- Jitterbug Perfume -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:57:13 (EST)
__Clemintine -:- Even Cowgirls get the Truths -:- Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:45:19 (EST)


Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 00:49:21 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Maharaji vs Maharaj Ji'
Message:
Okay, I always wonder this....when did he change his name? And why? Was it like Prince? The extra J was too much work?
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:52:55 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: 'Maharaji vs Maharaj Ji'
Message:
Hey G-mom,

I think Rawat changed his name ostensibly for simplicity's sake (why 'Rawat' wouldn't work, beats me). I'm not sure when. I can sympathize with him on that one. Remember all the people who used to say, 'Ah yes, I've heard of Maharagee gee'?
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:52:08 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'Maharaji vs Maharaj Ji'
Message:
Jim, I think the change had more to do with getting rid of the title 'guru' which was trendy in the 70s, but, as VP said, the more conservative 80s wasn't as receptive to it. Plus, the word 'guru' had largely become a joke by that time, largely BECAUSE of the stupid stuff BM DID in the 70s as portrayed in the media. So, I think he wanted to get rid of it. I also noticed that in the Long Beach video I watched, some the very same devotional songs we sang in the 70s were sung, but the word 'guru' and 'satguru' had been changed. Otherwise, the songs remained pretty much the same.

In addition, I think the name change was just an attempt for BM to pretend to the world that he WASN'T that fat gurunoid from he 70s who did all that outragious stuff and made all those outrageous claims, none of which he was able to fulfill. This was for the consumption of people who might consider getting involved with him. His problem was to keep his cult-members from the 70s from all bailing on him at the same time. Many did, but others bought the contradictions and changes, because they were programmed enough to not judge the guy on anything. He also stopped giving darshan, because that was really repugnant to the vast majority of thinking people.

So, his cult lies to aspirants and doesn't tell them about things like darshan, nor BM's past, and he has to go to the outback of Australia to give darshan, hoping no one will notice. What a sleazeball.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 15:31:23 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: New song
Message:
Yes, aspirants aren't told anything. The intro videos are hypnotic. The latest CD has instrumental versions of THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE and LEAVING YOUR LOTUS FEET, WHERE WOULD I GO. Of course, the old timers sing along with the old words.

If anybody needs a copy of the 1971 album (for anything) THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE, I just picked up a copy and will be glad to share. MJs on the front with a big sign over his head THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE. There are also pictures of his HOLY FAMILY that he later dumped.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:00:23 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: 'Maharaji vs Maharaj Ji'
Message:
I think it was to reinvent himself and give the premies a new start to recruit new devotees. A lot of MJs organization is underground. For a while we were not supposed to even tell each other about the next program. We were to spend our money to call long distance every day to find out.

Do you remember when you could call every day, and MJ would give a one-minute satsang over the phone (his poetry, I believe)?

I wonder why he didn't use the 900 idea to generate some cash.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:07:25 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: No kidding - Gail and Becky
Message:
Do you remember when you could call every day, and MJ would give a one-minute satsang over the phone (his poetry, I believe)?

No, I'd never heard of this. You really probably know a lot that many of us except recent escapees like yourself or Judex don't.

(By the way, Becky, it'd be neat if you could explain what the latest aspirant stuff is all about).
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:27:47 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No kidding - Gail and Becky
Message:
To be honest I've lost touch, since I stopped listening in '93. However, I do have a list of programs for Aspirants in London, and some person has booked programs every Wed at the Brunei Gallery, School of Oriental and African Studies (my old university). I am currently trying to get hold of the woman who is responsible for allowing M to have video programs there, but she is strangely elusive.
I think the asp. set up is pretty much the same as five years ago: when M comes to England he has a session when all the As are in one room, a microphone is handed round to each person, and we all get terminally bored listening to the slush that As pour out, trying to justify why they need Knowledge. do i really have to sit through all this crap? Everyone is so goddammed self-indulgent and selfish. Its all about AM I FEELING OK. Not IS MY NEIGHBOUR FEELING OK? What can I get from life? Not WHAT CAN I GIVE BACK TO THIS LIFE?
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:52:45 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Good golly, girl!
Message:
Dear Gail,
I had never heard of any of the stuff that you just described. Tell us more! I would LOVE to see your Journeys story (when you get the time and energy to write it).

regards from
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 01:05:02 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: all
Subject: thanks for info (nt)
Message:
no text
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 16:30:15 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What happens when...
Message:
If M were to quit touring,would EV go on?
Precedents: Christianity has seemed to thrive more then ever in the absence of its leader.As far as I know the rajneesh religion has changed its name to OSHO and still inspires existing and new devotees.Also;if I'm not confusing him with someone else;didn't Rajneesh at one point stop speaking for a number of years?Even during the time when the only contact he had with his devotees was when he'd drive by a line-up of them to wave, smile, and gesture at them from his passing Rolls Royce his organization still grew.
There's a zillion other examples but I think you get the point.

A little while ago there was some talk of M retiring.This speculation came as a result of M purportedly having talked about how he hoped the next master has an easier time of it then he has.I personally don't see him retiring because it's my belief that he sincerely believes in what he's doing.Unlike many of you I don't see him as an ill intentioned cult leader.I really don't.He seems to have trouble facing his past but I still think in his mind he's sincere and is probably genuinely confused about some peoples grievences.All the same though;if he really did hint at retiring,do you think that the 'mission' would survive his abdication or retirement ?
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 17:24:03 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: What happens when...
Message:
I'm sure BM's group would probably metamorphose into videos-only events or something equally as bland, which has already happened to a large degree. And, of course, marketing of concessions, perhaps by mail order, like you can do for the Grateful Dead now. BIG money to be made there.

As for him whining that he's had such a hard time of it: Gee, what a complainer. Previous so-called Perfect Masters had to walk the lanes of poverty-stricken India by foot, while he has numerous luxury automobiles, mansions throughout the world and his own private jet airplane costing about $30 million to pilot himself to and from programs. If that's a hard life, I sure wouldn't mind a little of that kind of hardship. Seriously, though, what could possibly be so difficult for him? That fact that the media can corner him (as in the Lord of the Universe film) and ask pointed and relevant questions? Yes, that might make things a tad difficult for someone like himself trying to perpetrate a Perfect Master illusion and con people out of their money and thoughts and capitalize on their sincere desires to know truth. Or maybe it's this band of rabid ex-premies nipping at his heels out on display for the whole world to see? I honestly hope it does cause him some sleepless nights, it's about time he started thinking about the consequences of his actions. Though I do tend to agree with bftb that BM is not maliciously doing this consciously for his own private ends, and naively believes he is trying to bring Peace to the world, though you'd think he'd have gotten an inkling of a clue by now; after all he's not 13 any more and I believe recently had his 40th birthday. Time to grow up Maharaji!
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 17:27:26 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: What happens when...
Message:
Unlike many of you I don't see him as an ill intentioned cult leader.I really don't.He seems to have trouble facing his past but I still think in his mind he's sincere and is probably genuinely confused about some peoples grievences.

I think with M it's more complicated than he's 'an ill intentioned cult leader' on the one hand, or 'sincere' on the other. I don't think it's entirely one or the other, and I think it changes over time.

Given that he has been treated as god since a very early age, and because he is surrounded by sycophants who tell him exactly what he wants to hear, never criticize him or hold him responsible for anything that goes wrong, etc., I think he has little perspective on himself. Add to this the fact there is a relatively small, fanatical group of premies from the 70s who will let him get away with any contradiction, flip-flop, foible or transgression whatsoever, and LOVE to kiss his feet and sing love songs to him, and you've got someone kind of trapped in the 'I am God' world.

But on the other had, he would have to be a TOTAL idiot to not see his imperfections and screwups and at least have SOME awareness that he messed up a bunch of peoples' lives by his pronouncements and teachings. I cannot fathom him not knowing this at least to some extent. He's grown up now and capable of reasoning and having a conscience, at least I hope he does.

So, if this is true, at least on the days he isn't feeling invincible and all-powerful, he knows that he hasn't taken responsibility for the shit he laid on people, and the resulting damage that caused them. On those days he is truly a ill-intentioned, con-man playing the game of master, but knowing he is a charlatan. And the motivation to be deceitful in this regard, is to keep the money flowing, and to keep from having to question his divinity in an outward, direct way, which would happen if he admitted mistakes.

But given how long this has gone on, and the fact that he hasn't had a job in his life, he isn't about to step down. He might gradually fade into obscurity, which is what I think is currently happening, but if he does, I doubt EV would go on, unless there is an heir to the throne accepted by enough of BM's current followers.

JW

Started thinking for myself again in 1983.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 17:55:31 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: EV' purpose
Message:
According to its statuts,
EV's purpose is to promote mr prempal rawat's teaching.

If rawat doesn't teach, there is no purpose for EV...

Question for EV's fans:

I'm about to open a new web-site where a lot of new controversial materials about EV, DLM and some other satgurus will be on-line.
I was thinking of some name for the web-site, and I finally
stopped on that one:

'EV and DLM's Controversial Papers'

Do you like it ?
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:48:51 (EST)
From: RT
Email: ommmmmm
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EV/DLM web site name>>>
Message:
Hi Jean-Michel

I enjoy your post very muc. Here is a punderful name for your site.

Truth when Controversial is Pissed!

ok to groan... No reply needed..RT
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:25:33 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: bftb
Subject: What happens when...
Message:
Dear bftb,
I don't know if EV would become a religion, I hope not. I don't cotton to religion, not that I have been following BM in the flesh anyway but I have a real adversion to organized religion. I think it is dead. The ones I have had any experience with have felt 'dead' to me. I prefer feeling alive and changing and vibrant. EV and BM don't have that now as far as I'm conserned so I am really not interested it it at all.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:13:40 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: above
Subject: Maharaji knows...
Message:
my 2 cents,
I disagree that BM sincerely believes he is what he says. He probably did at one time, but I can't believe he still does. Most manipulators are actually a lot more aware of their abuses than the victims think. It's common to excuse an abusive persons behaviour by thinking or saying that they (the abuser) wasn't conciously acting maliciously. For some reason people being victimized prefer to blame themselves or anyone else besides the actual artist of the abuse. They often rationalize the abusers actions in ways that a person with adequate self esteem views as illogical.The primary need, for the victim of the abuse, is to defend the abuser first at any cost, whether they make any sense at all. Maharaji is selfish and abusive. He knows he is fooling people with emotional problems. All he cares about is supporting his ridiculously opulent lifestyle, the only way he knows how to, by conning rubes.

xx
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:07:37 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Maharaji knows...
Message:
my 2 cents worth about abusers: another form of abuser, the child sexual abuser. Just to include this most obviously unequal power relationship of the lot:

Child sexual abusers know exactly what they are doing, usually feel no remorse and think they have a right to do what they are doing. This includes fathers, who believe they 'own' their children's bodies.

Often when offered councilling/therapy they do not accept it or want it. This informaton is only a few years old and is given out to be read by health departments, so is not just a line.

I just thought I would share that to throw more light on the truth about abusers being conscious. There may be different types but I believe also they are conscious of it. It is like a disease. Some things people do not want to face, like addictions, because the pay-off is too great for them. In other words, they enjoy it.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:13:17 (EST)
From: Al
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: What happens when...
Message:
Personally I think Maharaji is too much of a meglomaniac to not give specific instructions to make sure it does not continue but of course people don't always do what he asks, as demonstrated on this forum which premies still frequent.

As far as M's sincerity, I believe he is delusional and conditioned by his upbringing by his master who was his father. But I don't doubt Bob Mishler's take on M and how he was fully conscious of his manipulating to get what he wanted in all the years Bob knew him. I don't see anything in his behavior presently that speaks any different.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:44:02 (EST)
From: Al
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: another thought...
Message:
When the ashrams were closed by M in '82 there was a period that followed of 3 or 4 years where there was almost no activity as he sat back and allowed some distance from the more obvious cult activities of ashrams, satsang, singing Arti etc. and when the activity began again the names of the Knowledge techniques was changed, premies were not allowed to speak about Knowledge, the rituals of the past all but disappeared, Mahatmas were called instructors, exception being in India, etc. etc. the list goes on and on.

My point is that Maharaji has been silent before and public programs at satsang halls disappeared during this time. Alot of premies were upset and feeling lost without his direction, especially some of those who were told to leave the ashrams. Some of those people got into substance abuse, some had problems finding employment, some married and have not been seen by anyone, etc. Of course some people adjusted but no one helped those who didn't, certainly not Maharaji.

So I doubt that even if M carried through with the threat he hangs over premie's heads every now and again about how a master doesn't have to teach, ( it is at this point that everyone usually sighs as if they are heartbroken at the notion)he'd probably do it to let the bad PR surrounding him die down so that he could come back with yet another improved version of Knowledge giving. Writing this makes me think about how he has changed things alot over time and how can that be anything but the manipulative workings of a typical cult leader that follows this common pattern of deceit.

If he was sincere he would present Knowledge as the westernised Bhakti tradition, that it is, from the start in the public programs. So that only those who wished to follow a master, surrender to him and live for his darshan, would join and not trusting sincere people who feel an emptiness in their lives but who aren't comfortable with the concept of being a lover or devotee. After 5 months of watching videos and the carrot dangled in front of them to have this secret Knowledge they do believe that it is Mind that is creating doubt and that if they only followed their Heart they would indeed be saved.

Deception by one who intends to deceive because he could not live without the lavish lifestyle he loves if he had the smaller numbers joining.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 01:39:14 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Al
Subject: another thought...
Message:
Al:

Thanks so much for that post. It answered a couple of historical questions for me that no one has mentioned so far.

First, I left the cult in 1983, and I wanted nothing to do with Guru Maharaj Ji or premies, and so I didn't for a number of years thereafter. . So, I had no idea that things really stopped so completely for a few years after that. [ By the way, I know at least two ashram premies who left the ashram when ordered to, almost immediately contracted AIDS and died very quickly thereafter. I doubt very much that BM went to either of their funerals or even knew they were dead. That isn't surprising since he never knew they were alive either.]

But I transgress. I think what you are saying emphasizes how much programs and an essential link in BM's cult. Without them, things really seem to fall apart and many premies abandon BM, or get into their lives once again, and perhaps never come back. I have always suspected this, that programs, and not meditation, videos, or anything else, are the thing that holds the cult together. In this sense, it isn't any different than christian revivals and amway conventions.

The second thing it shows is that 'laying low' and attempting to repackage himself is an essential trait with BM. I think by 1983 he knew that the cult he was running was not viable and he needed to change his image. He didn't really care the effect that would have on his followers, which is typical of the uncaring attitude he always had, the image and the protection of his operation was most important.

But now I am hearing that he is reverting back to the devotional cult he always ran. He's giving darshan again in the west and the premies are singing syrupy love songs to him, which clearly describe him as a deity. Is this something he kept under raps for a few years and it's showing it's ugly head again? If so, this is NOT a good sign.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 08:59:21 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: sign of the times?
Message:
This may sound really stupid, but I think BM follows cultural trends very closely. Without getting into too much detail I'll try to explain what I mean. In the 70's there was the thirst for peace,love, truth, there were hippies, folk music,etc.

In the 80's the pendulum swung the other way to a more conservative culture with Reagan and Bush, 'The Preppy Handbook'-which was sort of my generation's 'Be Here Now' (sad, I know!) A guru was a very unaccepted concept during this time, and maybe this may be part of why he re-marketed himself.

The 90's seem to be sort of a more relaxed and accepting time than the 80's were. The fashion world has returned to the 70's with the salvation army as accepted as a Ralph Lauren price tag. Popular music is mor full of folk than the modern electric stuff of the 80's. Teens seem to be experimenting heavily with psychedelic (sp?) drugs and philosophies of life. In the 80's a majority of us 'just said no' to drugs-except for a little pot and coke here and there.

Of course these are generalizations based on observations of popular culture as a whole. Individuals vary certainly. Anyway, I wonder if this doesn't mean that the time is ripe again for a devotional figure to be more accepted than it was in the 80's when M changed his image. Just an observation.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 10:37:34 (EST)
From: Al
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: another thought...
Message:
As far as keeping the devotional aspect under raps for a few years, I think that slowly he reintroduced that aspect back and one of the most obvious examples of how he needed to change it to make it more acceptable to the critics is how the One Foundation song Teach Me Devotion was changed to sound less like the leader is in control. Yet for years this song was sung to him and the lyrics were more than acceptable. I too agree that without the events it would fall apart. Premies are addicted to the high of those charged group worship sessions.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:29:10 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Al
Subject: another thought...
Message:
Yes that song Teach Me Devotion, like a lot of the other songs says more as much about him as he himself says at times - and are a strong indirect way to seduce people (there's no doubt he vets every song, by the way, I think we would all agree on that).

Words such as: 'and im asking you
please, please, please, teach me devotion
please show me, Im ready to start
dont you know that your love is deeper than the ocean
come into my heart and let me feel love'

Well what I was thinking was about aspirants being like babies. eg with babies, you have to see mummy and daddy a certain number of times, to recognize them and have them imprinted on you. Well what about needing a certain number of times to see a large, hypnotic face (on the screen), always associated with words like simple, love, truth etc, in the company of people who show loving and devoted expressions, tears etc to this man. Then add songs to stir up your emotions, and which promise so much: eg 'your love is deeper than the ocean'. This is not just saying Maharaji is god, but god-like; ie he has the power to love you more than anyone you have ever known or ever will know, etc. That kind of love described there is the very deepest love people can feel.

Yes it's a big seduction. And then once the imprinting happens, it only takes a thought, a song, another premie going into 'premie speak', a picture or a video to get you back into that state where you are open to the expectation you will receive such great love and caring. Much of it is persuasion as much as promises. All part of the package... 'I am ...' 'He is....'You are...' All harnessing the great ability everyone has to love.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 17:10:53 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Vacillation
Message:
JW:

Given that M's status is dependent on his tradition-determined position and on the appeal or charisma of that tradition I'd say he's painted himself into a real corner. By repackaging himself he has severed himself from the origins, and from the part of his legitimacy that rests on tradition. The old Sant Mat is not appealing any longer to Westerners anyway, so he somehow has to found a new tradition or call it quits. He seems too conservative and 'dim' to found a really new tradition so unless someone else comes along and decides to buy out his franchise and refurbish it, I expect he will just fade away. He is oscillating between the two versions of DLM/EV because he's at the end of his tether and is pacing the line. Eventually he'll just wear himself out, lie down sullenly on his haunches, and growl at anyone or anything that disturbs him. Again, there might be someone who will refurbish the franchise after he dies, but they will be faced with the same dilemma. How do you create something new out of something old. That is not a routine problem. It would result in either a completely new rationalization of the spiritual, or a catastrophic failure that would be fun to watch, but not fun to be a part of.

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 00:27:46 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Vacillation
Message:
You may well be right, Scott, but I get the feeling he may be REVERTING to the 70s Guru Maharaj Ji, with the appeal to the tradition, possibily with some more western terminology. He may have TRIED to change in a substantive sense, but found both that it didn't work, in terms of making himself attractive to a new generation of aspirants, and it also reduced the number of 70s premies who are attached to the perfect master stuff.

I think the fact that he's giving darshan again, is issuing devotional music, and releasing a video of heavily-edited historical stuff, might be a sign of this. There will always be a small number of people attracted to the hindu-master trip in the west, and he has his followers in India and among the Indian diaspora elsewhere. Now, the way to bring THAT trip down is to foment a confrontation with his brother, Sat Pal, who is propogating among the same population.

So, Scott. Any ideas how we might do that? Today I sent an e-mail on Sat Pal's site, saying I was a former devotee of Prem Pal, and asking why neither brother acknowledges the other, and asking how both can claim to be the rightful heir to Shri Hans. Wonder if I will get an answer.

I would think that would make a GREAT story for the New Yorker, and a segment on 20/20 or 60 Minutes.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:40:10 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Vacillation
Message:
Yes. I know a 60 minutes reporter in this country. I used to work with him (but it was a long time ago). I could possibly try and contact him. I believe it would make a good story for that kind of show. They like the dramatic stuff and they like a good chase.

Maybe you have some contacts, JW. You certainly would have a good approach I think to get in touch with such media and try and get them interested in a story.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:19:56 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Pig's ear
Message:
You are right. You can't make a purse out of a pig's ear. This religion is bound to end in this nect of the woods.

However, due to our donations, he has invaded Africa, etc. Many of these folks have no access to computers, etc. Every time he goes, he gets their last dollars, too. The dogma may continue there. Perhaps one of his devotees will catch on and start prodding him with a voodoo doll. I guess he can't give darshan there because they go really wild and passionate--swooning and shouting, etc. He is probably afraid of potential consequences. They might want to squeeze him too hard out of love.

He gets a pile of dough from Mauritas and other Hindu cultures too. This is too bad.

GUESS WHAT--Pardarthanon is coming this Sunday to discuss what MJ wants and future programs for the rest of the year. I WAS NOT INVITED. I happened to be at a premie's house and he relayed the message. MJ is sending the big guns to our little town of 7 premies. MAYBE HE IS SPOOKED!

WE'VE GOT YOUR NUMBER, MJ!

Meanwhile, my friends for the last 24 years haven't bothered to call for the last few days.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:46:48 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Good old recipe!
Message:
GUESS WHAT--Pardarthanon is coming this Sunday to discuss what MJ wants and future programs for the rest of the year. I WAS NOT INVITED. I happened to be at a premie's house and he relayed the message. MJ is sending the big guns to our little town of 7 premies. MAYBE HE IS SPOOKED!

Nothing has changed! Go give them SATSANG!

Padarthanand is ppr's last bullet.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 11:06:19 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: 'friends'
Message:
Meanwhile, my friends for the last 24 years haven't bothered to call for the last few days.

Gail - I know this rejection must be hurtful to you. Selena also spoke about the same thing happening to her when she 'officially' left M in January. I hope that you are OK.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 11:33:00 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: old 'friends'?
Message:
I had the same experience.

I finally called them, and they were very happy to hear me.
I've seen most again of them out of EV's context, and that was great.

Don't forget one thing: this is also a BIG challenge for them,
and even though some premies won't agree with you, they might have the same desire to leave. It's only a question of time, as everybody can see.... I'm not speaking of the die-hard. These will also have an opportunity one day, as many did already.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 21:24:34 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: 'friends'
Message:
A real friend likes you for who you are. Sometimes you have to let go of people who aren't your real friends--even though it is painful to do so. I'm sure you will figure out who liked Gail and who liked you because you were a premie. On the up side, making new friends is great.

Hang in there,
VP
Made new friends in '98
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:39:31 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: What happens when...
Message:
bftb:

Haven't read the rest of this thread yet, but the basic difference is that M belongs to a traditional lineage. So, when he exits someone else, or possibly a number of others, will claim his position. He already has contestants for it. If he is not perfectly clear about who the successor will be then a 'succession battle' will ensue. At least, that is what's always happened in the past. His leadership is not really based on Charisma, but on tradition, whereas the entire lineage as a whole is based on the concept of Charisma.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:47:53 (EST)
From: Al
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: What happens when...
Message:
Yes, the tradition will continue and M's daughter may be the first female to be Master! I don't know if this would happen while he is alive though. If he died all hell would break loose as it did when his father died. I thought bftb was asking about while he was still alive but maybe he meant both.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:44:24 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Al
Subject: What happens when...
Message:
Personally I don't see much charisma in his daughter. I'm sure she is a lovely person but she doesn't quite have that 'leader of your soul' quality. then again who knows? who cares?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:46:16 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: M's charisma?
Message:
Judex - Regarding charisma -
I have been watching M videos, including the LOTU video, with my husband lately. I still think the 'old' M (from when I was a devotee) is charismatic. I don't think the 'new' M (from new videos) is charismatic at all. My husband doesn't think M was EVER charismatic and can't figure out why we did! I believe it's all a matter of programming (you described this process very well above when you spoke about the videos, songs, etc.), and if M wants to groom Daya to be the next master, she WILL become charismatic to premies.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 16:19:59 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji party!
Message:
Found in the back pages of Good Housekeeping

Here's a tip for some nice summer fun. What not throw a Maharaji party? That's right. Maharaji, the 70s cult leader, you remember him. Who could forget? Here's what you do:

1) Rent a hall or, even better, a mansion in a good part of town.

2) Get rid of all the furniture.

3) Get a hold of a lot of old pictures of Mahraji and his family (the latter might be hard because the little guy ordered them all destroyed years ago. Oh well!) Anyways, hang them up all over the place. If you have the time and room, you can even make an altar (see insert for directions).

4) Leaflet all your friends. Put up posters in laundromats and, put out Public Service Announcements if you like. Don't worry about space. Hardly anyone will want to come anyways. Hey, like they say in matters of the heart, 'it's a numbers game'. Right?

5) Open the doors at 4:00. Have a few of your friends do security (i.e. wear suits and look like serious. This is a different kind of spiritual look you'll want everyone else to have. This is DEEP spirituality. Place your 'security' people everywhere. You never know.) Make sure everyone takes off their shoes!

6) Serve Indian food (i.e. basmati rice, dal and cheap potato and pea subji with papadums) in the other room. Paper plates, everyone sits on the floor. No talking! Play gentle One Foundation music in background. Let the music build to some soft reggae crescendo ('da da da to the caterpillar...' for example). Who ever said being a premie wasn't fun? Then take the music down, softer. Maybe Rich Neal's 'Dance, dance, dance'. Get one of your friends to cry in the corner. If her eyes are shut let her cry alone. If they're open have one of the security guys talk to her. After a few minutes he can escort her outside and be seen talking with her for a while.

7) 7:30 sharp! Everyone into the 'satsang hall'. Re-enact satsang from the old days. In other words, actually let the 'premies' get up, one after another, and extemporaneously say whatever comes into their heads. Scripts for this satsang are available at any local joke shop. (Hint: the best ones always start with, 'I don't know' and end with that too!) Oh yeah, divide your firends into premies and non-premies. You'll need this later.

Whatever you do, no questions! If you like, you can have someone try to ask a question, then give him the 'reason we don't interrupt satsang' satsang. If you feel like it, you can have him object. Depends on if your security guys are still talking to that girl outside.

8) Arti... yes, the whole thing! This is a party, remember!

9) Meditation. But first, ask the non-premies to wait outside where some of the premies can talk to them. Have the non-premies tell the premies how beautiful everyone was and how they'd like to be just like them. If there are any particularly good lookign girls in your non-premies, hve a few of the 'brothers' compete with one another to give her satsang. Then, have someone come out of the hall/meditation room and tell everyone to be quiet.

10) Everyone walk home, go for coffee, whatever. It's early -- maybe 10:00. Still time for any other parties around town.

Jai Sat Chit Anand!
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 05:41:38 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji party!
Message:
Jim, you swine. That was so funny/painful I'll have to go and change my trousers. But you forgot one special party routine that we in London used to have all the time.

Special Item
Select one of your more sober looking friends to be the 'ashram premie' and dress him up in clothes that are just a little too small. Have him give basic humble but pleasing satters in a voice just quiet enough to require real concentration. Then, just as everyone's getting into the word and cruising, he mentions that if you don't get knowledge, the spiders will get you. Have the security bods hover slightly closer to the stage for a bit. These crazy interludes continue until he goes for the full Jack Nicolson, leaping from the stage, foaming at the mouth and heading for the nearest housing project pursued by fourteen (yes 14) security guys. Oh yeah and here's a tip, just to ensure essential realism, apply stick-on blackheads to the neck of the 'ashram premie' and insert one meter (yes 1 m) of broom handle up the backsides of your security guys.

Now that should really get the party going.

Richard
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 01:43:36 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji party!
Message:
Ah, I can almost smell the patchouli oil mixed with foot odor....
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 11:43:36 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji party!
Message:
Jim,

Yer givin' up the copyrights to some good stuff! Hilarious, I think I'll have one this summer. Not sure how the lumberjacks and the guys that work in the mill will take it, though. Probably be ok if I tap a keg or two.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 14:34:49 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: MJ THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
Dear Guru Maharaj Ji:

Hunsa bunsa qui jai! Bhole Shri and J'ai satchitanand!

I have been posting here as Iola, but I don't feel afraid anymore, so I am going to use my real name. You told me that God was all loving, forgiving etc. etc., so I guess I have my bases covered if I am making a mistake (which I'm not). You said you were greater than God, so I am sure that your level of compassion, understanding, etc. is INCREDIBLE!

It has not been a complete joy attempting to following you and your commands these last 24 years. I have never lived up to those standards and my self-worth diminished. You helped me to see that sexual relations were trivial, that family didn't matter. I even abandoned my four-month-old to be with you once. I have used you to escape from living. 'Be detached,' you said. Ah, yes. Husbands, children, mothers, fathers, careers--nothing matters except you.

I am sorry that I never got the chance to tell my mother all of this. She was right. For 23 years, she kept telling to wake up, but I would listen to her (MOTHERS ARE USUSALLY RIGHT). She's dead now.

While you took our last dollars in those early days, your children had the best of everything, and so did you. Many people wondered how they will make their car payments, and you smugly talk of the car you bought for your daughter's sixteenth birthday and about the truck your son inappropriately, in your estimation, chose. You told us why you wear those expensive suits--because you can afford it. That's because people donated the money for you to SPREAD THE PEACE BOMB!

Nobody minds paying the rock star $50 for a good seat, great music and a blast. When the show's over, no further dedication is required. It's more than the money. You got our attention, moment by moment, hour by hour, day by day, year by year. Just recently you told me to think of you in all that I do. How can I love someone else or even function well if I'm always thinking of you. I don't hate you, but I would have done better without your divine intervention. Forty-three is somewhat old to be starting all over again--but I'll do it.

It wasn't all bad. I had a lot of laughs and support from others who were on this ocean of illusion with me. Please tell everyone the truth.

Yours truly,

Gail C. MacDougall

PS I did get this month's donation back.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:14:31 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: MJ THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
Bravo, Gail. That takes alot of guts. I admire you.
Rick
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:21:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Gail
Subject: Alright, Gail!!
Message:
Hey Gail,

Good one! Kind of like burning a draft card, isn't it? I'm trying to think, do you know me? Are you in T.O.? I lived all across the country in M's protective custody. Now I'm in Victoria.

If you are in T.O. I wouldn't mind asking you about some other folk. Care to email me?

Thanks,

Jim
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:25:27 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Alright, Gail!!
Message:
Will do so in a few days. We are getting a new account. I'm in London, ON but I know the folks to the east.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:39:50 (EST)
From: PaulR
Email: pgrobinson@hotmail.com
To: Gail
Subject: Alright, Gail!!
Message:
Dear Gail (Iola)

Well, you've got more guts than I had. I knew there was going to be a reason why I followed your posts.

Shit now I have to get to know you as a new name. Maybe I can come out myself too.

regards and good wishes pr
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:47:12 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: MJ THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
I didn't want to come back here yet. Work and personal life are still so intense, the forum is more than I can handle - or so
I *THOUGHT**. But I looked in today, since I am working from home. That was one of the best posts I have seen here.
Thank you Gail/Iola.
We all had a lot of laughs. Those years may have had their purpose. But so what? We don't have to hang on just because we had some good times. I know I would have anyway. Life is like that. Good times/bad times. M gets no credit, either way, in my estimation.
You have been a big inspiration to me. Thank you.

... feeling a little sheepish for reamaining anon, but you have a better name
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 16:24:22 (EST)
From: Al
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Congrats Gail!
Message:
Haven't been here in a few days and the first post I read is yours and am I impressed! Your courage and insights are an inspiration!
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 16:30:05 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: MJ THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
Dear Gail,
I've been following your 'return to reality', that's been happening here before our eyes. This forum is giving people back their lives. You give me inspiration, you give me faith that even hard core long termers, like my mom, aren't necessarily beyond hope, as I have often thought. Be very proud of yourself ror breaking free. Remember that your 'mind' and your 'doubts', are mumbo jumbo, and trust your inner voice. I feel that you have left a sinking ship, M is obviously on a decline. I dont know if he can overcome his latest obstacles as he has in the past. You're safe now, you made it out.
congratulations x
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:38:38 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Selena
Subject: Selena THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
Dear Selena,
Just in case you'll see this. You have been in my thoughts big time dear. Hope you are stronger and processing things.
Love to you,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 16:33:11 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: MJ THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
Gail,

Congratulations. You've worked very hard, and I've been very moved by your posts.

Paul
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 16:49:13 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: cadbury@compuserve.com
To: Gail
Subject: MJ THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
Gail,

Forty-three is somewhat old to be starting all over again--but I'll do it.

I'm 50 and just starting over....it's real magic. Thanks for a beautiful post.

Jethro
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:28:21 (EST)
From: Lg
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: MJ THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
C'est beau (beautiful) Gail. Bravo!

Lg
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:29:17 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: MJ THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
Dear Gail,
I sure wish I could read a letter like this from a certain friend but unfortunately that person is dead and I will never read his. But I got to read yours and it was just wonderful. Thanks so much for sharing it with me.
With fondness and respect, VP
P.S. I am so glad that you got your money back. The forum is here for you if the going ever gets rough.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:35:35 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Gail
Subject: GAIL THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
Dear Gail,
I am tingling all over! I am so happy for your progress. 43 is better than never, eh? May be best to consider that last donation as your ticket home! I am so happy for you and so happy that you felt comfortable to be yourself with us. Doesn't the freedom feel great! It won't all be elation of course but you have us and your life to get back to and keep you busy.
Love and congratulations!
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:30:24 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: MJ THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
Gail,

Thanks so much for posting the letter. And congratulations.

JW
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:34:40 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: MJ THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
Gail, I'm happy for you! It didn't take me very long to come to the truth once I put myself into my lingering doubts 100%. After 26 years I'm pleased to be telling my sister and first husband that they were right about M. For my mother, I showed her the techniques and explained the reasons why I thought they were the real thing. I wish my father were alive. He told me one day I'd understand the truth. Iola was his sister's name. Wonder where you got it?

Blessings to you, Carol
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:56:51 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Gail
Subject: MJ THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
Dear Gail - Thank you for your courageous and inspiring post. Postings like yours make the work that people put into this forum and site worthwhile. I appreciate your presence on the forum very much.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:41:07 (EST)
From: RT
Email: ommmmmmm
To: Gail
Subject: Freedom, Freed-om
Message:
Dear Gail, I almost 'wrote' you a song, and may yet, but this is pretty good...

Here is your FEE FREE FREEDoM award! :)

If you go to www.fee.org, you can receive free the July 98 issue of The Freeman: Ideas on Liberty, a 60 pg magazine, from The Foundation for Economic Freedom, NY. 5x8' size, nicely done.

Cover story: For the Children; The Origins of Public School; Character and Government; and The Wild West meets the Internet. These are all essays, from the oldest continuously published magazine dedicated to Individual Freedom.

Founder's Quote:

The Power of One

'Only Individuals can learn
Only Individuals can think creatively
Only Individuals can cooperate
Only Individuals can combat statism' - (or Cultism)

Leoneard E. Reed.

also:

Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid Growth ' -- George Washington.

God speed in your new freedom.

RT
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 10:57:07 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: 'Think'
Message:
Your post reminded me of Aretha's 'Think' (chorus: 'Freedom, freedom, freedom, oh, freedom!'). I think that that would be a great song for Gail, not to mention many others on here! It might not require much lyrical manipulation, though!
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 23:04:12 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Gail
Subject: GAIL, THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
[BIG DROOLY SMOOCH]
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 00:08:07 (EST)
From: pam
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: MJ THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
Gail, do you have reddish brown hair and brown eyes and were into some MLM company a few years back? I think I know you. I've been following your posts as Iola too. Do or did you live in L.A.? If you're who I think you are I remember you as a really sweet, warm loving person. I'm sorry that happend to you in Australia. I still practice Knowledge because I enjoy it, but have backed way off of doing 'service' or participating (or choose carefull what I do) because of exactly the kind of thing you describe. For some reason (I think it's pressure) premies have been historically unkind to each other when doing service. I think people take on too much and lose it a little and somehow justify that it is O.K. To my mind kindness is one of the most important qualities a human being can have and express. The irony of feeling so (vouchafed [sp?] love from within and being so unkind baffles me to no end. So I have just side-stepped that aspect of practicing K. I too have been hurt doing service (and have probably hurt people] ...Caroline Myss has a great line: Realize that while you're recovering from people, other people are recovering from you! Anyway, even if you're disenchanted with the organization surrounding M, you can still, privately, enjoy going inside. All the best to you.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 00:45:21 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: Apple4256@aol.com
To: Gail
Subject: True-Woman THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
Having returned home from seeing'Truman'
where a man gains the courage to walk
away from a prepackaged view of reality
to live life outside his Master's realm

I must say your TRUE WOMAN evolution
over the last few weeks has been captivating
and your courage has made the world a better
place for your children and fellow citizens
and been warming to my soul

its amazing isn't it
HERE True Knowledge of the Self
is revealed
so that those so inclined can
regain their own souls
(after getting ,paradoxically,
'Knowledge of their Soul'
in a marketing package that captured their Souls !)

Its fascinating that this all started for you
(at least this particular stage)
after Maharaji gave his now imfamous
'Whatever you do,
Don't go into the Brier Patch'
admonition...
serves him right, doesn't it
Shine On, Girl !
You're an Immortal!
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 01:00:24 (EST)
From: premieJi
Email: None
To: pam
Subject: more about the restaurant,Gail
Message:
Dear Gail, I understand you being pissed off with being treated badly. I agree pretty much with the sentiments of pam above, although I'm used to working in stressful situations in the non-premie world and so I know poor treatment is dished out by people in general in stressed situations and I still actively involve myself because the pros far outweigh the cons for me.

I was working in that restaurant all the time, and I don't think the guests realized the difficulties we had, but we did our best in the circumstances.

In regards the chef who abused you, could you give me a description? There was one guy who was not a premie but a hired professional chef, who gave some other people a hard time and maybe it was him. This guy was Irish.

I'm not saying it wasn't a premie though, as the chefs were pretty stressed when half the staff dissappeared.

Regards,
premieJi
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:31:35 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: premieJi
Subject: THE CHEF
Message:
This poor chef had just come back from DARSHAN. He apologized about 25 minutes later when he say the stir he had created (other very kind people came over to console me), but it was too late.

Surely after seeing the Lord, this sort of behaviour would not occur.

Let's face it. This guy was probably there for weeks with no sleep (working for free). He probably had a bottom line to worry about.

I worked the rest of the week at the other food area where the tenters were. They were given pasta every day of the week.

The food wasn't bad. A lot of Canadian premies worked there and did their best (great folks). One poor lady walked up to me on the fourth evening and said what am I supposed to eat. I don't like pasta and I feel sick. I gave her a huge bowl of broccoli and some butter.

Lot's of people complained about the food, but the desserts were great. I ought to know. A bunch of us stood there for hours slicing them.

I commented that the people deserved gourmet meals for the amount they had spent to stay there.... But, of course, most of it went for other projects like the residence and the road (I guess the local government wanted to create a work project and insisted that the road be built--why not have a little of the cash action for the area?) and the ampitheatre. That program was not a good-value-for-your-money deal.

I also realize that you are a sincere person. Please ask yourself how often you feel happy. How glad are you to drive to the videos, etc. How happy are you when you get the message that MORE is needed for MJ's work. Most of us have been or are. However, I must confess that I am very self-absorbed. Me, me, me, me, me or MJ, MJ, MJ, MJ, MJ or premies, premies, premies, premies. I have done little to really help people. I work as a teacher. Sure, I love those kids. We have a good time, but I have seen this career only as a vehicle to allow me travel to see MJ. Everything has been a vehicle for MJ and my pursuit of BLISS.

I have lived for the highs at programs. Sometimes I have felt a deep sadness before MJ even left the stage because I had to go back to my little 'rat race, little miserable life, and so on.' I don't know what the excitement is. I have been to many.

Whatever happened to 'Living the ordinary life in an extraordinary way.'
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 06:11:06 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: THE CHEF
Message:
Gail,

I was pretty outraged by what we had to pay for those sub-standard meals for what we paid. It was a disgrace,for sure.

The first evening meal was quite nice, the second was just okey, the next one was inedible and the next one was really mediocre.
The breakfasts were always really nice. That was one consolation.
Oh,yes and the desserts.

When I saw the notice about fine dining, I assumed that this was what I was going to have and was amazed that this was something that one had to pay extra for. The exuberant prices one had to pay for staying in the tent was outragous. The price of meals was included in the tent accommodation that one paid.

I remember someone saying that the reason for the quality of the meals was due to their tight budget. Well, nothing in my books could justify such shockingly boring meals for the price we paid.

It was only the mega rich or very keen and desperate ones who were willing to pay for fine dining after they had already paid for their meals as an all inclusive price with the tent accommodation.

regards Mirabai
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:08:29 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Mirabai
Subject: THE CHEF
Message:
Mirabai I don't know if it showed me how much 'things have changed' or how much I had changed but contrast that kind of experience with about five years ago (I have no sense of time) - it was about the 3rd program at amaroo. The road wasn't built. The land was all bush and you walked up a hill from the 'carpark' and then it was just all open space with big trees to sit under.

There were big white tents. The aspirant tent was really lovely - white and soft (kind of romantic), sort of billowy and nice to be in. I carried the memory of that tent as a symbol with me.

We didnt stay on the land but paid (not much) to have dinner there the last 2 nights and M came and sat right near us and ate a bowl of soup. The food was exquisite, absolutely incredible I thought.

He drove around in his car and people milled around him. I was alone and he drove past me with his hand outstretched and I touched him. It was all so intimate.

Had I changed this last time or has everything changed?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 19:27:08 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: THE CHEF
Message:
Well Judex,the land is more beautiful now, I feel. More trees and green grass has been planted. I'm not sure about how much things have changed. Personally, I didn't have a problem with what M said at the program. He inspired me to go more deeply within myself as is what he has usually done.

It's just the way it has been for me. I've never believed for a second that he was god and I just wasn't badly affected by my involvement in almost 14 years. I have stated some of my major criticisms over these few months but I have to admit that I do not understand the degree to which people have felt abused by M.

As I've also said, I'm open to the fact that people have seen and heard things that are vastly different to my own,but remain open on the subject. Knowledge is something I value enormously but know there are many paths to the same destiny.

sincerely Mirabai

p.s.
I did not want to leave Amaroo and felt very sad that I had to.
So many people in the one place wanting to go within was kind of like a haven to me. Even if so many people seemed suppressed and lots sharing chit chat. It seemed that many people were unable or unwilling to share on a deeper level. But nonetheless it was still an environment that contained people all aspiring for something precious within.

I admit that there would be many many quotes that I have seen in this ex-premie site which I do not relate to. More than anything else, my experience of M has been to encourage me to look within. Even despite my criticisms. But I don't have any ultimate answers in this regard. I just know about my own experience.

I've never met M in person and got to know him personally so how can I judge him one way or another. So much seems to be speculation: for and against.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:00:48 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: THE CHEF
Message:
Whatever happened to 'Living the ordinary life in an extraordinary way.'

Gail - I thought that was my own private little 'resolution'. How did you know about that particular concept?

PS - It's great reading this 'celebration' thread and how happy everyone is for you! Yeah!
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:25:29 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: pam
Subject: Scam, pam
Message:
Anyway, even if you're disenchanted with the organization surrounding M

That's a little slimy, isn't it? She's disenchanted, apparently, with Maharaji himself, pam. Why do you pretend to not notice that?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 09:42:53 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: pam
Subject: MJ THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
Hi Pam. Well I wish I knew you but I don't think so. I've been one of the faithful backbenchers here in London, Ontario, Canada. All the best.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 00:39:38 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: happy for you...
Message:
Dear Gail,
I just want to say I am happy for you that you found the strength to write that letter. My wishes for a fufilling happy life fo r Gail in which she knows that her happiness matters and that she can trust herself.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:57:01 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: happy for you...
Message:
i didn't see any happiness at all in that letter. and you are happy for her. weird.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 10:10:09 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: happy for you...
Message:
Red Fart,
Oh no, you don't get it all. Yes, she's happy... she's goddamn happy. She threw off the yoke of BM, the fat Boy Guru. Now she can just be herself. She can enjoy herself without worrying if she's practicing knowledge right, or being in her mind, or pleasing those stupid premies. Now she's free . She doesn't have to watch those stupid videos that are so boring and that really many people who watch can't stand. She no longer has to spend a fortune to travel to hear idiotic rambling from Guru BM, when the money can be spent on something she really needs. And she no longer has to worry about rotting vegetables, because her vegetables are fine, and she got to leave the BM behind to boot. But you? You're still worried about your vegetables. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
You're not happy, Red Fart, and you're not free. You're a programmed little premie droid.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 01:22:53 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: Yes I am HAPPY for her
Message:
Dear redness,
I am VERY happy for her. I see her as someone who has just successfully made a harrowing journey and has safely reached the shore. Sorry it disturbs you. Seems I have a knack for saying things that disturb you.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:19:02 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: frontline.media@virgin.net
To: Gail
Subject: MJ THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
I'm an ex-aspirant over the moon with finding this fantastic forum , but still with premie friends who are telling me to 'do myself a favour' and get Knowledge. (Thanks for telling me that my life isn't valid without M and Kn, guys).
Well done Gail. You are free at last!
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:22:56 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Becky
Subject: MJ THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
Dear Becky,
Welcome, I am, really all of us, are thrilled to be of help to you.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 15:48:35 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: BECKY THIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
Becky,
I am an ex-aspirant, too! I am over the moon to read that there is another aspirant escaping with their mind and life intact. I would be interested in hearing more about your journey, IF you are comfortable enough to tell it.
Glad you're here,
VP
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:19:32 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: VPTHIS IS FOR YOU!
Message:
got your e-mail this morning and have replied. This is my lunch hour and this is my work e-mail so i may have to restrict interaction, although its great to meet other exs. I can't believe you were an aspirant for 25 years! I first heard of M when i was 15 (1987) from a miserable heroin-addicted friend of mine. All my friends got into him (M) and the quest for Knowledge began. My friends actually believed that M knew what anyone was thinking at any time of day. One friend said he is the second coming, and when I was in the process of leaving, I said 'What about the Dalai Lama?' 'The Dalai Lama is just a monk' , scoffed my friend.
In theory you are free with M, in reality everyone becomes more fundamentalist and dogmatic than the worst Christian or Muslim fundamentalists. But the war is not on the body, it is on the mind and the soul, the stuff of life. It was thanks to a conversation with a wise writer that awoke me to the fact that i DO NOT KNOW MAHARAJI FROM ADAM. He could be a complete ass-hole behind that benign facade.
Anyway, more later, insha'allah.
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Date: Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 18:18:30 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Becky -your quest
Message:
I got your email, too. I still can't find the D@vid Stirling link for you. It was registered on Geocities, but I couldn't find it. Hope you get all of your questions answered. VP
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:53:26 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: this is not his mailbox
Message:
it's good, i think, for you to direct your feelings toward Maharaji and write to him. however, this is not where he gets his mail. i'm sure you must know that. who are you really writing to?

you are using him as a scapegoat, you know. i have had Knowledge longer even than you, and i have not neglected my family or duties because of him. yes, i spend any money i can to see him or whatever, but really, it is because it is something i love.

what Maharaji is offering is a way to find that peace and that love no matter what is happening in the soap operas of all our lives. a real protection for the heart, and a place where the heart can grow and be fulfilled ever more.

if you really want to write him, i'm sure you can easily get access to his PO Box address.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 10:04:21 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: this is not his mailbox
Message:
dear rh -
I saw it more as an open letter to Maharaji, and as a declaration of independence. I thought it was very well done, and a brave act on Gail's part. I don't think writing a letter to his PO box would have the same effect (we do have the address on this site by the way), because I doubt if he ever reads those letters. He may not read this one either, but a lot of other people will.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:53:44 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: cadbury@compuserve.com
To: Katie
Subject: this is not his mailbox
Message:
Hi Katie

Re:letters

Even after I was thrown out of the ashram, I told myself it was his lila, I wrote to him personally, to mailboxes, to private addreses which I knew thru doing 'personal' service. I wrote for over 10 years and never got one reply. But I still 'believed'.

No doubt it was my karma to be totally ignored. After all I was only an ashram premie asking for advice as how to rebuild his life after the very core structure was taken away. Fortunately I did not take my own life, but came very close.

jethro
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 08:14:44 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: this is not his mailbox
Message:
Jethro thank you for sharing that about your experience. I am glad you didn't take your life but I can understand how it feels. I mean how much worse could it get than losing your feeling of connection like that? Of safety, of trust. Glad you're sharing here.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:56:11 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: this is not his mailbox
Message:
Dear Jethro -
Your post really touched me. I was out of touch with Maharaji's organization for many years and didn't find out that the ashrams had been dissolved until I found this site. I also didn't know what people went through as a result of living in the ashram, and also as a result of having to leave it. I can't imagine committing your whole life to something, like the ashram premies did, and then being unceremoniously tossed aside.

I am very glad that you didn't take your own life even though your requests for help from Maharaji went unanswered. As you know, other people did kill themselves. I am glad that you are here now, too.

Regards,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 10:15:20 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: this is not his mailbox
Message:
What a bunch of pathetic crap drivel. You sound like a Moonie: Totally brainwashed and programmed. Do you realize how stupid you sound? Maharaji is supposed to be the Lord. He should hear Gail's cry for help, right here on the Forum.

Say, is that PO Box where you write to BM for help, the same one where you send the donations? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 13:10:43 (EST)
From: PaulR
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Whooooops
Message:
Dear gail,

looks like you started a landslide. good wishes pr
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 06:31:00 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: Everyone.
Subject: this is not his mailbox
Message:
Personally, I think it's a shame that all people can't express their views here, without being called childish names and generally being mis treated
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 17:46:29 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: this is not his mailbox
Message:
I really wonder. Maybe it is actually more likely that M will get to read Gails letter here rather than if she sent it to his PO Box! It's not impossible. I doubt if M reads all his mail personally. He probably cruises the net on his own from time to time though.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:57:28 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Was Yusef Islam ever a premie?
Message:
O.K.-so I feel a little wierd starting a thread on such an unimportant topic but I 'm curious.Remember how there were always murmers about which famous people were premies or aspirants?Well I remember someone once saying that Cat Stevens was a premie and that his song 'Oh Very Young' was inspired by M.Last night I had occasion to listen to his album called 'Foreigner' and there were a couple of lines in the song 'The Hurt' that made me think about the old Cat Stevens rumour/gossip.Some of the lines that got me wondering were(BTW:I am fully aware of the dangers in trying to decipher lyrics.It can be quite silly and often you can bend things to suit whichever angle you're approaching them from but....it's fun): ''....so you turn to any phoney mouth with a tale to tell,But he's just a hoaxer don't you know,selling peace and religion,between his jokes and his karma chewing gum....'' the Hurt was written a few years after Oh Very Young.Does anyone know if Cat was a premie or an aspirant?
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:08:14 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Was Yusef Islam ever a premie?
Message:
I don't think Cat Stevens was ever a premie. He might have attended satsang in London, hence the rumors, but I don't think he ever received knowledge.

At some point, Stevens joined some fundamentalist islamic religion in the UK. He got a lot of negative publicity when he publicly supported the Ayatolah's bounty on killing Salman Rushdie. This was in the 80s, I think, but from what I understand he changed his name (is it Yusef Islam?)and follows islam. Also, you will note he hasn't had much of a musical career in 20 years.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 17:01:19 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Cat Stevens
Message:
Article from the Christian Science Monitor: 02/27/97

Cat Stevens is perhaps unique in the history of modern popular music. He simply disappeared from public view at the height of his popularity.

Unlike today's angst-ridden rockers, Stevens didn't leave because he was sick of all the attention. He left to devote his life to Islam. In 1977, Stevens became Yusuf Islam and by 1979, his recording career was effectively over.

But in January, Mr. Stevens was making headlines again, this time for his announcement that he will produce an album of Bosnian songs. He has written two of the songs on it, and has said he might sing one.

Stevens has recorded one album since 1979, but it was a mostly spoken-word album about the Muslim religious leader Muhammad called 'The Life of The Last Prophet.'

Stevens was born Steven Demitri Georgiou to a Greek Cypriot father and Swedish mother in London. He still lives in a north London suburb, teaching at the Islamiya School, a Muslim school he founded in 1981. He is married and has five children.

In 1986, British tabloids sparked a controversy when he was asked how he felt about the Ayatollah Khomeini's death sentence on Salman Rushdie for writing 'The Satanic Verses,' a book very critical of Islam. He said he supports the Islamic law but did not advocate anyone stepping outside national laws to do it.

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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 20:23:25 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Islam
Message:
Take a look at this site: http//www.submission.org
Satan is described...along the lines of, when God is not enough, we create gods.
carol
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:11:45 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Roberta Flack
Message:
Hey bif,

Don't know about Cat Stevens (other than his Islam trip). But how about Roberta Flack? Wasn't 'Killing me Softly' supposed to be M-related? Well, That's what I'd always thought until I chanced across an article somewhere or other that explaiend she'd written it about someone else, someone famous who I forget. Don't think it was ANYONE in the Holy Family though.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:16:33 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Michael Bolton
Message:
I think it was Burke who told us that he used to listen to Michael Bolton emote with his shoes off back in the seventies. Yecch!!!

Then there's Marrissa Berenson, the model turned great actress who starred in Barry Lyndon.

Don't forget Fizzbee and Dayalata.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:32:05 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: whoever cares
Subject: celebrity premies
Message:
I seem to remember hearing that the girl who played one of the sisters on the tv show 8 Is Enough was a premie. I'm pretty sure her name was Susan Richardson. Also wasn't George Harrison involved? I thought I read somewhere that he 'donated' a Rolls in the 70's
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:52:17 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: x
Subject: inquiring hearts want to know
Message:
I was skimming a bio on George Harrison a few years back and the author claimed that GH's involvement was limited to the fact that his wife is a premie.The author said something about how when asked about M George replied something to the effect of 'people critisize what they don't understand.'The author also noted that the Harrisons still had a little photo of M on their piano.I believe the book was called 'Dark Horse'.

p.s. to JW:My memory from back when he gave his support to the 'let's get rushdie' campaign is that he has indeed changed his name to Yusef Islam.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:10:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Jimmie Dale Gilmour
Message:
Country singer got kudos for something or other from Rolling Stone, I think, a years or so ago. He's a premie. So was Barry Goldwater.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:14:16 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: JGilmore
Message:
I think it's 'Gilmore.' Can't stand his music, but Joy is a fan, I think.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 20:48:48 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: JW
Subject: Jimmie Dale Gilmore
Message:
Yes, premie/ex-premie issues aside, I have to admit to being a big Jimmie Dale Gilmore fan. I love his voice. I wouldn't exactly call him a country singer, though, he's a lot deeper than that. His album Spinning Around the Sun is a classic, and was nominated for a Grammy award. 'Contemporary folk' is the category he got nominated under (twice, actually), but his music sort of defies categorization. He's also an extremely nice person, and has lots of different spiritual sides to him besides GMJ, and he pulls a lot of it into his work. He also gets incredibly good musicians to play with him, making him sound even better.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:31:36 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jimmie Dale Gilmour
Message:
Yeah....didn't the pope initiate Goldwater?
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:02:30 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: My note to Jimmie
Message:
I dropped by Jimmie Dale Gilmore's discussion group and posted:

What's your current take on Maharaji? Have you seen the ex-premie web site? Check out our own discussion there -- the one he's asked all premies to disregard -- at:

http://www.ex-premie.org/forum3/forum3.cgi

Or just drop me a line and I'll fill you in.

Jim Heller

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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:08:49 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jimmie spreads the word
Message:
From the bio on his page, here's Jimmie's mention of Maharaji:

From 1974 through 1980, Gilmore retreated from the music business, living in Denver in a spiritual community that followed teenage guru Maharaji. Still, his songs received an airing via superlative cover versions by Joe Ely (notably 'Dallas,' 'Treat Me Like A Saturday Night,' and 'Tonight I Think I'm Gonna Go Downtown').

It wasn't until well after he moved to Austin, Texas in 1980 that he began to consider another run at the music business. 'I came to believe I could integrate my life in music with my spiritual life,' he told journalist John Morthland.

It wasn't easy. Gilmore sparred with some personal demons during the Eighties, and he waged a parallel struggle to reconcile what he created as an artist with what moved him as a fan.

'I'll tell you what resolved it for me,' he told another writer. 'Somewhere around my last year of high school or my first year of college, I read a book by Ezra Pound and somewhere in it he said, 'The poem fails when it strays too far from the song, and the song fails when it strays too far from the dance.' That line really hit me. It made sense, because I'm a music lover, but I also feel that music has to be understandable, right down to the honky-tonk level.'

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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:32:56 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Kahns
Message:
Jim:

Country singer got kudos for something or other from Rolling Stone, I think, a years or so ago. He's a premie. So was Barry Goldwater.

...as well as Genghis and Madeline Kahn.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 19:45:02 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott and bftb
Message:
Well Scott and Bif,

You guys sound like you don't believe me. Would it change things if I told you I was speaking from my heart? Or (like Maharaji said re vegetarianism), I'm not lying, I'm speaking from experience? Whhat if I said I was speaking from both my heart AND experience?

Besdies, don't you remember Barry's peace bomb satsang?
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:28:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hear Bolton give satsang!
Message:
That's right, if you watch this video clip you will hear Micahel say 'The essence of soulfulness is just letting go to that place. It's finding a way there. It's finding a way to the well and coming out with the goods and sharing it.'

http://www.sonyclassical.com/releases/63077/splashindex.html
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:28:49 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hear Bolton give satsang!
Message:
That's right, if you watch this video clip you will hear Micahel say 'The essence of soulfulness is just letting go to that place. It's finding a way there. It's finding a way to the well and coming out with the goods and sharing it.'

http://www.sonyclassical.com/releases/63077/splashindex.html
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:31:26 (EST)
From: Vincent
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Roberta Flack
Message:
It was Don MacClean (yawn...) Sleep well.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:57:38 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Roberta Flack
Message:
Jim:

Are you sure? I was tight with a crowd of musicians and hippies in Salem and it was common knowledge that this guy whom everyone knew, Dave Snyder I think was his name (though I'm surprised I remembered it) had written 'Killing Me Softly' and sold it to Flack. So, she didn't write it at all.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:03:37 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Roberta Flack
Message:
Scott,

I'm sure it was a premie rumour. I'm also sure that the rumour was false.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:20:21 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Roberta Flack
Message:
Jim:

What was a premie rumor? Dave Snyder wasn't a premie, nor were any of the people who knew him. There was also a sort of feeling that Snyder had been 'ripped off' but I took that to mean that he wasn't paid much for the song, not that he hadn't gotten credit for it. I mean, I just sort of overheard these conversations and wasn't particularly interested. I'm amazed that I recall the name. Just one of those things that stuck.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 09:31:37 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Soft First Commandment
Message:
Jim:

Another tidbit from the scuttlebutt about Snyder: He wrote the song about his girlfriend (whose name I do not know, but could probably find out by locating some of those old friends). The gender references in the song were, of course, changed.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:48:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The Soft First Commandment
Message:
Scott,

I just remember hearing more than once at ome point that Roberta Flack was a premie and the song was about M. That's all.

Hey, maybe Stevie Wonder was an ex and 'Mistra Know-it-all' was about M too?
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 13:31:34 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Roberta Flack
Message:
It's possible that Killing Me Softly was a song about a fans obsession.The fan is a deluded potential stalker who by the end of the song comes to learn that the object of her obsession was not in fact singing directly to her and really didn't know her from a hole in the wall.It reminds me of the scene in the John Lennon documentary 'Imagine' where this obsessed and deluded fan shows up at his estate and John tries to explain to this guy that none of his lyrics were written about him,and much like the fan in Killing Me Softly;even when confronted with the truth,he has trouble believing it and dropping his delusions.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:08:32 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Was Yusef Islam ever a premie?
Message:
I heard that too about Cat Stevens being a premie. But I am pretty sure that it was a rumor. I had also heard that he was a big Christian and that most of those songs were written in that vein, not for M. Don't really know the real story, though. Knew he turned to Islam later as Scott has written here.

Also heard that John McVee of Fleetwood Mac and Michael Nouri were premies, too. These reports have been substantiated (read Mick Fleetwood's autobiography and knew a friend of M.N.) Don't know whether or not they are still into it.

VP
Thought Barry Goldwater was a conservative who gave 'the speech that buried him'
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:41:20 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Michael Nouri? Of course
Message:
Yeah, Micahel Nouri wrote the classic 'And it is Divine Selling And it is Divine'. I kid you not. I jammed with him once at some stupid festival.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:47:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Nouri spreads the word
Message:
Found this on a broadway bio blurb:

These days, Nouri's happy to have made his way back to New York and is toying with the idea of making the stage his permanent home. 'I've never been happier. I was raised here. This is where I belong.' Then, laughing ironically, he adds, 'I started out to be a movie star. But I learned the world doesn't need another movie star. What it does need is a loving heart. And the best part of me is my heart. That's what my contribution is.' Nouri credits this change in perspective to meditation--something he's practiced for 25 years. 'It's not about being spiritual,' he explains sheepishly. 'It just gives me sort of a Teflon field that repels invasive and intrusive distractions. Without it, I'm like Velcro for all that stuff.'
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 21:54:10 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Nouri spreads the word (pt 2)
Message:
From cigar magazine:

Then, however, came a crisis. In the early 1970s, he says, 'I set out on a spiritual quest in search of myself and became involved in meditation for three years.' He lived on ashrams, pursuing self-knowledge. 'It was a very rich time in my life. I discovered serenity within myself. I had been going through a tough time. I had had my heart broken in a relationship. I was disillusioned. I had experienced a modicum of what to me at the time was fame: being on Broadway, having my picture out in front of the theater, making real money. I knew that wasn't the answer. So I became a troubadour of sorts, living out of a funky old Volkswagen bus. To make a living, I sang, wrote songs, played the guitar. Then, gradually, I made a reentry into the world, started pursuing my career. I resumed acting with the understanding that I didn't have to renounce the world to have peace of mind.'
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:01:43 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Nouri spreads the word (pt 2)
Message:
Oh, God, Jim...here we go again. I can't tell if you are kidding me or if these are real quotes.

Dazzed and Confused, VP
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:04:11 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Nouri spreads the word (pt 2)
Message:
Real.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:13:32 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Cigar Efficianado?
Message:
Barf! What cigar magazine was that in? I may have it lying around here somewhere.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:38:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Cigar Efficianado?
Message:
Sorry Veep, I lost it. Do a Bolton search. I mean Nouri. Or whatever. Search from your heart, is all I can say.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 23:36:34 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Cigar Aficianado?
Message:
Jim,
I have been sitting here thinking that you are actually finding this stuff in books...duh! The whole library is right here at the fingertips. That was in Cigar Aficianado's (I spelled it wrong, too) archives from Autumn of 1995.
So Michael Nouri lived in ashrams and in a VW bus. Hilarious little piece of nostalgia. I remember when he was a lowly premie and got his first movie break. All his premie friends were so excited.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 03:24:16 (EST)
From: Red Foley
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Kurt Cobain was a Premie!
Message:
Ok, the following lyrics are absolute, undeniable proof that the late Kurt Cobain was also a premie. I don't care what anyone says!

And, as an added bonus you all are here to witness this historic moment when the words 'Kurt Cobain' and 'premie' were first ever put into a single sentence.

Ok, you don't have to look at all the great lyrics - just try a few. Problem was that I found too many songs just in Nirvana's first LP, Bleach, that contain the necessary evidence to back my aforementioned claim.

Kurt has many, many references to God.
Kurt sings of the trouble in the MIND.
Kurt understood pain.
Kurt understood emptiness and futility.
But, Kurt also knew of wonderous, most high joy because he was Nirvana!

It's obvious to you isn't it.

For example, Thank you dear God for putting me on this earth
I feel very priveliged in debt for my thirst.
from Downer

From Blew on the Bleach LP:

If you wouldn`t mind, I would like to blew.
If you wouldn`t mind, I would like to lose.
If you wouldn`t care, I would like to leave.
If you wouldn`t mind, I would like to breathe.

The classic Lithium on Nevermind:

I'm so happy
Cause today I found my friends
They're in my head
I'm so ugly
But that's ok, 'cause so are you
We've broke our mirrors
Sunday morning Is everyday for all I care
And I'm not scared
Light my candles
In a daze 'cause I've found god

From Mr Moustache on the Bleach LP

Fill me in on your new vision,
Wake me up with indecision.
Help me trust your mighty wisdom,
Yes I eat cow
I am not proud.

Easy in an easy chair.
Poop as hard as rock.
I don`t like you anyway.
Seal it in a box.

Show me how you question question,
Lead the way to my temptation.
Take my hand and give it cleaning,
Yes I eat cow
I am not proud.

And there's Sifting, also from Bleach

Afraid to grade, wouldn`t it be fun?
Cross says floss, wouldn`t it be fun?

Wet your bed, wouldn`t it be fun?
Sun felt numb, wouldn`t it be fun?

Your eyes (the) teacher said, your eyes.
Preacher said your eyes.
Teacher said, teacher said.
Don`t have nothing for you.(x3 times)

Spell the smell, wouldn`t it be fun?
Search for church, wouldn`t it be fun?

Wet your bed, wouldn`t it be fun?
Cold in coals, wouldn`t it be fun?

Your eyes the teacher said, your eyes.
Preacher said your eyes.
Preacher said, preacher said.
Don`t have nothing for you.(x3 times)

And Downer, also from Bleach

Portray sincerity
Act out of loyalty
Defend your true country
Wish away pain
Hand out lobotomies
To save little families
Surrealistic fantasy
Bland boring plain

Hold me down in restitution
Living out your date with fusion
Is the whole thing shun in bastard?
Don`t feel guilty
Master writing

Somebody said that they`re not much like I am Iknow I can
Make up enough of the words
For you to go along
I sink then some

Slippery pessimist hyprocrite master
Conservative communist aprocalyptic bastard.
Thank you dear God for putting me on this earth
I feel very priveliged in debt for my thirst.

Hold me down in restitution
Living out your date with fusion
Is the whole thing shun in bastard?
Don`t feel guilty
Master writing

Somebody said that they`re not much like I am I know I can
Make up enough of the words
For you to go along
I sink then some.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 07:39:12 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: Anyone know John Mills?
Message:
Does anyone remember John Mills? the son of the famous British actor and brother of Hayley Mills. I met him in Florida in 1975 after the Orlando Hans Jayanti festival. There were a lot of hippy premies floating around afterwards in Daytona Beach (we were staying at a premie called Stacey Gonder's place) including the Krishna Lila dancers etc. We all piled into various cars and mobile homes and took off to LA (the next premie Mecca). I really liked John Mills, he seemed to have his feet more on he ground than some. When we got to LA he vanished, and I never heard of him since. Does anyone know what happened to him, or how he is nowadays? (He, of course, was a premie at the time I knew him).
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 21:48:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: How much will you give me?
Message:
Anon,

I think I've found John Mills for you. You did say you'd pay handsomely, didn't you? Everyone heard that. At least I heard it and I AM learning to listen. (Did I convince you?).

Anyway, you'll find your guy safely making new age premie music on the CD linked us to down below. It's a compilation daringly entitled, what else?, 'Reflections..'!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:24:02 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: How much will you give me?
Message:
Anon, I think I've found John Mills for you. You did say you'd pay handsomely, didn't you? Everyone heard that. At least I heard it and I AM learning to listen. (Did I convince you?).
Anyway, you'll find your guy safely making new age premie music on the CD linked us to down below. It's a compilation daringly entitled, what else?, 'Reflections..'!


I very much doubt it Jim. The guy on the CD will almost certainly be a different John Mills. I am afraid the reward has to remain unpaid until more substantial proof of identity is offered.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 01:42:33 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Orlando
Message:
>Florida in 1975 after the Orlando Hans Jayanti festival.

The festival with the stage floating on the lake and the public day, Jiva and fireworks at the end?
Did you visit the Hotel Life play?

I remember some great times from that event.
The only time I got a nice ride from a cop while hitchhiking. He liked the event and so did the other 2 local people who stopped to give me a ride on my journey to the airport.
The trip to Orlando was a mad dash in a driveaway car from San Diego with a hitchhiking detour to Coco Beach.
Sitting on the sand in Coco Beach, a girl unexpectedly walked up who knew my friend from high school in San Diego and showed us to our hotel room.
Delivery to the event site was in a Grateful Dead van followed by opening the curtains of the hotel room, seeing a car pull up in front and having a huge joint of Columbian gold delivered..
When our assigned roomate showed up with his parents and missing a hand, my friends drink ended up on the floor following an aborted handshake.
I met one of the most beautiful girls there that I have ever met but she vanished back to detroit (Suzy).
I also ran into a girl that I had taken to a satsang for the first time in San Diego.
My friend is still a bit fixated on the circular overhead rainbow that showed up during the Sunday afternoon event.
In fact, a couple years ago when he got a chance to ask M a question at a public program that was the topic he chose of all things.

CD
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 07:33:49 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Orlando
Message:
Yes, I had a similar experience. I was a bit young and naive and was, regretably, yet too shy to fully capitalise on the abundance of 'forward' young women that confronted me in droves at every turn, on my arrival for the first time in The New World.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 11:11:39 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Orlando rainbow = sundog?
Message:
Hi CD - I remember that rainbow (not to mention all the gasps of awe from the premies!) I think it is what they call a 'sundog' (Robyn, help!). They are quite common in Florida - something to do with all the water vapor in the air. Since the Orlando festival was the first time I was in Florida, that was the first one that I'd ever seen - I've since seen many while visiting friends there.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 11:48:45 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Red Foley
Subject: Then Courtney must be an ex!
Message:
Sorry, I just had to say that. I know a lot of people don't like Courtney Love, but 'Live Through This' is one of my favorite albums, and it sure don't sound devotional!
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:18:12 (EST)
From: Red Foley
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Then Courtney must be an ex!
Message:
Of course! Why didn't I think of that? JSCA, Courtney.

'Live Through This'is a good album because Kurdt wrote it, just as others are writing her yet to be released album.

Oh, I need to confess that I'm just funning everybody about Kurt. And I regret having smeared his good name with my ridiculous claim. However, what a wild thought, huh?

Although, his lyrics often sound like they've been written by an Ex-P - disappointed and angry in a BIG way.
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 12:57:25 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Red Foley
Subject: Defending Courtney
Message:
It's also a good album because of her performance. A man could NOT sing those songs that way, nor could many other women.

P.S. Can you imagine Kurt and Courtney at an 'event'?
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Date: Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 13:52:17 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Defending Courtney
Message:
Katie:
There's an interesting article on Courtney in a recent New Yorker. It does not paint a very pleasant picture, but from the description of her father in the article I think he's the reason she's kind of strange.

I agree with you about her voice, totally awesome.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 02:01:21 (EST)
From: Red Foley
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Defending Courtney
Message:
Indeed, the album is good because of her performance. I really don't know if Kurt wrote it, but he might have. It seems to have his pop melodic sensibilities.

Actually, I agree with a lot of her socio-political views.

Kurt and Courtney at an 'event': They'd probably would have been nodding off as many frequently do.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 14:27:55 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Defending Courtney
Message:
Hey Katie
Live Through This has been playing at loud volume in my car these days as I make it through another life chaging trasition - Can't thank you enough for sending it to me.
'yeah they really want you they really want you they really do'

But they can't have me!!!!
Love,
Selena the rabid dogJi
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Date: Thurs, Jun 25, 1998 at 14:38:49 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Defending Courtney
Message:
You are welcome! I'm so glad you like it (well, I knew you would).
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:24:13 (EST)
From: RT
Email: ommmm
To: Everyone
Subject: Even Cowgirls get the Truths
Message:
From EVEN COWGIRLS GET THE BLUES BY TOM ROBBINS
Dove Audio Book as read by MICHAEL NOURI (who has M's Knowledge)

Verbatim transcript from tape 7 of 13. 2 paragraphs. :)

“You know Sissy, every sage or holy man, or spiritual leader or whatever you choose to call them, does not go around preaching or writing books, gathering disciples or holding rallies in the Houston Astrodome. Some remain almost invisible to us. Swami Vivekanda once said that Buddha and Christ were second rate heroes. He said the greatest men that ever lived pass away unknown. They put forth no claims for themselves, establish no schools or systems in their name; they never create any stir, but melt down into love.
…Vivekanda warned that the statesman, and generals and tycoons who seem so big to us are really low level figures. He said the highest men are calm, silent and unknown. Isn’t that beautiful? The true master seldom reveals themselves, except in the vibrations they leave behind. And upon which, the lesser Gurus build their doctrines.

- RT who says this is a fun, creative novel to listen to/read, also his book Jitterbug Perfume.
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 13:36:08 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Even Cowgirls get the Truths
Message:
Hey RT -
I sent that book to a premie friend of mine once, back when it first came out and was really popular (circa 1977). She said it started her on the path to leaving M. I recommend it (there are some other good quotes too). Jitterbug Perfume is good too.

Katie
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 15:08:22 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Even Cowgirls get the Truths
Message:
Found Jitterbug Perfume in Mexico a few years ago. Had nothing else to read (besides the insert for the Macarena CD I bought) so thought, 'what the hell, Robbins can be okay a times'. Loved it.

Favorite line:

'Hey Macarena!'
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 22:57:13 (EST)
From: RT
Email: sniff sniff
To: Jim
Subject: Jitterbug Perfume
Message:
Hi Jim, I actually placed my favorite quote next to the wall switch in my room:

ENLICHTA.

( Means: Lighten Up!)

neato.

RT
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Date: Tues, Jun 23, 1998 at 18:45:19 (EST)
From: Clemintine
Email: sundogs
To: RT
Subject: Even Cowgirls get the Truths
Message:
Dear RT,
Skinny Legs and All is another great Tom Robbins book!
Robyn
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