Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 15

From: Jun 28, 1998

To: Jul 6, 1998

Page: 3 Of: 5



S.F. -:- Disciple now? READ THIS! -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:34:38 (EST)
__John -:- Free Advice for M!!! -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:32:46 (EST)
____Becky -:- Additional advice -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:45:39 (EST)
______Sir David -:- Additional advice -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 21:48:10 (EST)
__Jim -:- Mahartaji's minefield -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:58:18 (EST)
__JW -:- Disciple now? READ THIS! -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 15:13:28 (EST)
____x -:- Disciple now? READ THIS! -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 15:50:46 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Disciple now? READ THIS! -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 20:12:59 (EST)
______JW -:- Disciple now? READ THIS! -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:15:32 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Disciple now? READ THIS! -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 15:46:21 (EST)
__Katie -:- Disciple now? READ THIS! -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 23:45:59 (EST)
__Passing thru -:- UNDERSTAND THIS! -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 12:07:53 (EST)
____John -:- free advice for pt ! ! -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:10:50 (EST)
______Gail -:- free advice for pt ! ! -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:29:44 (EST)
________Passing thru -:- Gail's Email -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:04:43 (EST)
__________VP -:- This shit makes me sick! -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 00:08:53 (EST)
____________Becky -:- This shit makes me sick! -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 13:24:31 (EST)
______Emile -:- free advice for pt ! ! -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 15:22:09 (EST)
________JW -:- free advice for pt ! ! -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 16:34:49 (EST)
______Passing thru -:- John's Email -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 17:54:49 (EST)
________Gerry -:- John's Email -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:06:16 (EST)
__________Passing thru -:- Gerry's Email -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:12:30 (EST)
____________Gerry -:- John's Email -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:31:13 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- You're a silly goose. -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:20:02 (EST)
______Passing thru -:- Scott's Email -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:21:28 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Like shit through a goose! -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:10:37 (EST)
__________Passing thru -:- What's good for the goose -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:31:52 (EST)
____________JW -:- Don't Lie -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:47:29 (EST)
______________Passing thru -:- What lie? -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 18:27:46 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- I beg your pardon??? -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 20:53:42 (EST)
__________Gail -:- Like shit through a goose! -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 22:37:31 (EST)
__________VP -:- Scott, I fell out of my seat.. -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 00:01:58 (EST)
____JW -:- Do You Think We're Idiots? -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:35:27 (EST)
______Passing thru -:- JW's Email -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:43:05 (EST)
________JW -:- When In Doubt Make Stuff UP!l -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:05:13 (EST)
__________Passingthru -:- Stuff reduction -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:53:41 (EST)
______Carol -:- Do You Think We're Idiots? -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 04:03:39 (EST)
____S.F. -:- You understand this, plonker! -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:57:05 (EST)
______Passing thru -:- SF's Email -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:58:26 (EST)
________Jim -:- PT, you really shouldn't -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:35:24 (EST)
________S.F. -:- SF's Email -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 20:18:49 (EST)
________Richard -:- Applause....... -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 09:37:33 (EST)
__________jim -:- right on, Richard! -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 14:29:34 (EST)

Robyn -:- response to Stephen H -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:14:24 (EST)
__Stephen Harris -:- response to Stephen H -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 05:00:17 (EST)
____Robyn -:- response to Stephen H -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 09:37:13 (EST)

VP -:- Having to be anonymous... -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:32:42 (EST)
__Gerry -:- Having to be anonymous... -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:45:51 (EST)
____Katie -:- Having to be anonymous... -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:57:36 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Having to be anonymous... -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:46:23 (EST)
__Gail MacDougall -:- Having to be anonymous... -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:46:41 (EST)
____VP -:- Having to be anonymous... -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:00:14 (EST)
____RT -:- Your song is ready to go... -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 18:08:07 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Having to be anonymous... -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:52:17 (EST)
____G's mom -:- Having to be anonymous... -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:10:00 (EST)
______Selena -:- Having to be anonymous... -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 17:10:39 (EST)
________VP -:- Having to be anonymous... -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 17:37:49 (EST)
______VP -:- Telling your age..G's mom -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 17:47:09 (EST)
________John -:- Bad news for you VP -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 10:50:13 (EST)
__eb -:- Having to be anonymous... -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 20:04:23 (EST)
____Selena -:- Having to be anonymous... -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 21:52:06 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Having to be anonymous... -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 09:44:57 (EST)
__Richard -:- Having to be careful... -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 10:33:18 (EST)
____Passing thru -:- Having to be careful... -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 12:35:43 (EST)
______Gerry -:- Having to be careful... -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 12:53:23 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Gerry -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:00:49 (EST)
______Jim -:- PT, you're being silly -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:38:28 (EST)
________Passing thru -:- Quote time -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:20:49 (EST)
______Richard -:- I humbly apologise............ -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 10:08:40 (EST)
____VP -:- Thank you, Richard -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 17:17:43 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- PPR is really a sculptor! -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 06:22:22 (EST)
__Richard -:- PPR is really a sculptor! -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 07:08:26 (EST)
__RT -:- Even Cowgarls get zee Truth-2 -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 08:49:18 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Even Cowgarls get zee Truth-2 -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:05:47 (EST)
______RT -:- Even Cowgarls get zee Truth-2 -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 17:55:49 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Even Cowgarls get zee Truth-2 -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 18:21:48 (EST)
____Katie -:- My favorite 'Cowgirls' quote -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 21:45:49 (EST)
__VP -:- PPR is really a sculptor! -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 11:38:08 (EST)
____Robyn -:- PPR is really a sculptor! -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:17:16 (EST)
______VP -:- PPR is really a sculptor! -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:42:21 (EST)
________Robyn -:- PPR is really a sculptor! -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:48:42 (EST)
__________VP -:- A piece of work? -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:06:45 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- A piece of work? -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:20:25 (EST)
______________VP -:- Hey mine was a joke, too -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:27:03 (EST)
________________Robyn -:- Hey mine was a joke, too -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:06:37 (EST)
________________Gail -:- Hey mine was a joke, too -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 18:31:52 (EST)
______________Richard -:- A piece of work? -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:28:14 (EST)
____________Selena -:- A piece of work? -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 17:12:41 (EST)
______________VP -:- hahahahahaha3rd eyes -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 06:15:37 (EST)
__________Richard -:- PPR is really a sculptor! -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:20:51 (EST)
____________Gerry -:- PPR is really a sculptor! -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:45:33 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- PPR is really a sculptor! -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:03:53 (EST)
________________Gerry -:- Bag ladies -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:20:48 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- Married to one too (off topic) -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:52:42 (EST)
____________________Robyn -:- Married to one too (off topic) -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:28:44 (EST)
____________________bftb -:- Married to one too (off topic) -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 20:16:49 (EST)
______________________Katie -:- Married to one too (off topic) -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 22:01:27 (EST)
__________________Robyn -:- Bag ladies -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:20:49 (EST)
____________________Gerry -:- Bag ladies -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:37:43 (EST)
______________________Robyn -:- Bag ladies -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 20:16:02 (EST)
________________________Gerry -:- Bag ladies -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 22:23:38 (EST)
__________Peter -:- I'm dying! -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 02:14:58 (EST)

Another -:- Grace -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:58:08 (EST)
__seinfeld -:- yada yada yada -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 01:02:08 (EST)
____Another -:- yada yada yada -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 02:24:07 (EST)
______Richard -:- Purity -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 05:03:26 (EST)
__Gail -:- Grace -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 08:11:14 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Gail -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:24:00 (EST)
____Another -:- Grace -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 20:00:41 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Grace -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:21:29 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Grace and off topic-cats -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:37:38 (EST)
______Katie -:- off topic-cats -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:42:58 (EST)
________Gerry -:- off topic-cats -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:07:16 (EST)
__________Katie -:- off topic-cats -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:19:03 (EST)
________Robyn -:- off topic-cats -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:24:05 (EST)
______Rick -:- Grace and off topic-cats -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:57:33 (EST)
________Gerry -:- Grace and off topic-cats -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:09:58 (EST)

Selena -:- Teeth Like Eyeballs -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 21:35:52 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Teeth Like Eyeballs -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 18:28:50 (EST)
____Selena -:- Teeth Like Eyeballs -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 22:29:36 (EST)
______Rick -:- Teeth Like Eyeballs -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 00:25:35 (EST)

Jim -:- I miss op! -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 17:46:55 (EST)
__JW -:- I miss op! -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 17:56:44 (EST)
__Gail -:- Class Action Suit -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 19:47:59 (EST)
____Jim -:- People v. Maharaji -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 21:34:18 (EST)
______Joy -:- People v. Maharaji -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 22:06:46 (EST)
________Selena -:- People v. Maharaji -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 22:13:23 (EST)
__________Jim -:- I love this question too -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 22:41:38 (EST)
____________Katie -:- What my life would have been? -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 22:57:22 (EST)
______________JW -:- Sliding Doors -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 23:41:25 (EST)
____________g's mom -:- standing ovation -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 23:52:25 (EST)
____________JW -:- I love this question too -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:50:34 (EST)
________Judex -:- People v. Maharaji -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 05:56:40 (EST)
______JW -:- No Way -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 23:36:20 (EST)
________g's mom -:- but if.... -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:02:01 (EST)
__________JW -:- but if.... -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:08:44 (EST)
____________G's mom -:- Hi JW -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:28:01 (EST)
______________g's mom -:- off topic -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:32:05 (EST)
__Katie -:- I miss op! -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 23:07:16 (EST)
__Brian -:- ms. op -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 07:55:15 (EST)
____Judex -:- events to spend money on -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 06:18:16 (EST)

Gail -:- Going back to the Cult -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:24:06 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Going back to the Cult -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:35:45 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Going back to the Cult -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:40:50 (EST)
__Jim -:- Nice knowing you, Gail -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:38:34 (EST)
__Rick -:- Going back to the Cult -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:41:25 (EST)
____twister -:- Going back to the Cult -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 04:15:09 (EST)
__JW -:- Going back to the Cult -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:41:54 (EST)
__Selena -:- Going back to the Cult -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:49:02 (EST)
____PaulR -:- Going back to the Cult -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:22:23 (EST)
______JW -:- Going back to the Cult -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:30:09 (EST)
________PaulR -:- Grow up -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:41:05 (EST)
__________JW -:- Grow up -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:06:43 (EST)
____________Selena -:- Grow up -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:12:08 (EST)
______________JW -:- Thanks, Selena -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:20:51 (EST)
________________Selena -:- Thanks, Selena -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:30:50 (EST)
________________Robyn -:- Thanks, Selena -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 18:53:18 (EST)
________________Richard -:- PaulR & JW -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 05:36:18 (EST)
______________bftb -:- Grow up -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:28:48 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- Grow up -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 18:46:15 (EST)
________________Selena -:- Grow up -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 18:51:15 (EST)
__________________Robyn -:- Grow up -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 18:55:34 (EST)
____________bftb -:- Grow up -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 19:31:35 (EST)
______________JW -:- Grow up -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 19:39:46 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- PaulR -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 18:50:54 (EST)
______Judex -:- Going back to the Cult -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 06:26:21 (EST)
____Gail -:- RELAX -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:34:01 (EST)
______Stephen Harris -:- RELAX -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:11:13 (EST)
________Jim -:- RELAX -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:30:47 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Stephen -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 17:25:36 (EST)
______VP -:- Gail has fine qualities -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:25:19 (EST)
__Paul -:- Going back to the Cult -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 17:23:09 (EST)
__Lg -:- back to the Cult - too bad! -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 21:19:18 (EST)
____Gail -:- back to the Cult - too bad! -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 23:56:04 (EST)
______Jim -:- Hey I remember Claude -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 00:50:31 (EST)
________Gail -:- Hey, I remember ... -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:57:11 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Alex started his own cult! -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:04:03 (EST)
______Lg -:- back to the Cult - too bad! -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:47:59 (EST)


Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:34:38 (EST)
From: S.F.
Email: None
To: Jim & Everyone
Subject: Disciple now? READ THIS!
Message:
In a thread down below Jim asked me, 'Is there anything particularly significant about that k packet satsang? If so, would you be so kind as to post it? Also, that 1971 Divine Light -- does it have a Q & A? If so, would you please look it over for hooks, lines and sinkers and post the relevant portions as you find them?'.

I am not much of a 'chatter'. I prefer to lurk and learn, only posting when I have something specific to contribute. I re-read the K. packet satsang and found it not merely 'significant' but of immense historical importance. I know that may sound a little hyperbolic but please remember, this was given throughout the seventies at the end of each knowledge session to every new premie. Amongst other revelations, it states clearly who the BM claimed to be and exactly what was required of each premie. There can no further doubt whatsoever that he claimed to be God incarnate.

I could not edit anything out of this document. I feel it should be presented publicly in its entirety so everyone can see for themselves. I have taken great care to type and proof-read it so that what you see is correct to the last comma. However, I have never claimed to be perfect and would appreciate notification, via the forum, of any minor error (if any) you may find.

I will read through the Divine Light magazine tomorrow and post any interesting bits over the next few day. And so, without further ado, I present:

You Are Disciples Now

Satsang of Shri Guru Maharaj Ji,
Hampstead Town Hall, England, October 31, 1971.

So realise that first of all your destination, your aim was to receive this Knowledge, but now once you have received it your aim should be to meditate upon it. And now, because you are always meditating, also, now your aim should be to do satsang and service. Because no service, no servant - no servant, no humbleness - no humbleness, not a man. And not a man, not a disciple. So you cannot be a disciple at all. If you want to be a real human being first of all you have to be a servant. And how can one become a servant? By service.

You are disciples now. You have received the shelter and now you are afraid of nothing in this world. You have received the shelter of such a thing, you are wearing a bullet-proof coat, such a coat that even when bullets come to you they won’t harm you. Egos come to you, they cannot touch you. So you are completely sheltered and completely protected. Don’t, don’t go out of the shelter. Always try to be in the shelter. Otherwise this ego is ready; you cannot see the clouds of ego but you can feel the rain of ego. As soon as you go out of the shelter you are completely drowned in egos. And you must have received the terrible experiences of these things, of egos, of suffering.

How does suffering exist, do you know? Many people ask me, if God is good from where did evil come, and what is evil first of all? Evil is nothing. Evil is the ignorance of our mind. That is, we are ignorant of what is good. So now what is the opposite of good? Bad. And when we are ignorant of good, automatically we are known to bad, and bad is evil. Bad is evil. So naturally we are immersed in evil. But once we realise, once we catch a hand of Satguru, nothing now. We have got that communication which cannot break. Wherever we go, under the sea, on the moon, on the sun, on all the planets, it cannot break. This is strong communication. Wherever we go we can just talk into this walkie-talkie and call Satguru from any distance we want. Because God is omnipresent there is no problem in calling God from anywhere you like. You just have to speak into this walkie-talkie. This walkie-talkie is fixed into us at the beginning, and this is our heart. Whenever we want to, call God and God Himself comes. Whatever we say is answered.

What is truth? What is that existence which is making everything exist in this world? Everything is existing today because of something, so what is that something? That something is everywhere. And that something is beyond nothing. And that something is always. And that something is something. But what is this something? This is the Holy Word of God that we have all received. And if we have received it, what should we do now? We should always be obliged to him who has given it to us. Because we wouldn’t have been able to get this Word by ourselves. It is by somebody’s Grace that it is given. So try to oblige him. Try to always be under his guidance.

I can teach a horse how to be in rein. I can make a hole in his nose and put a rein there. And I can take that rein in my hand or I can leave it alone. Now if I leave it the horse will go wherever he likes. But if I keep the rein in my hands I won’t let that horse go anywhere he likes. I will only take him on the road, on the path. I won’t take him on the rocks where he will be damaged, where his body will be damaged and the chariot will also be damaged. So you’ve got this rein, and if you hand this rein to me I will guide you. I’m ready to guide you. But if you are not ready, keep it with you. It’s not a problem. Keep it with you. And don’t think this will be a problem for me, this is not a problem. If you want to give your pride to me, give. If you want to give your ego to me, give. I am ready to receive it. If you don’t want to keep it with you, give it to me. I can make utilisation of it. And what is that? I’ll again convert it to something, then I’ll give it back to you. It will help you.

So whatever extra you have got, give it to me. And the extra thing you have got is your mind. Give it to me. I am ready to receive it. Because egos trouble you, but they don’t trouble me. Give them to me. So whatever extra you have in your mind, or your mind itself even, give it to me. I can bear it. Guru Maharaj Ji has given me so much, so much resistance that I can resist everything that is bad for me. It won’t affect me. So just try to be holy and try to be a good devotee, a perfect devotee of that Guru who is Himself perfect, who is really perfect.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:32:46 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: S.F.
Subject: Free Advice for M!!!
Message:
S.F. Thanks for doing this. and wow, this stuff is wierd.

A few weeks ago I started to transcribe a tape I have from Philadelphia 1978. I got about half way through it, and I got so depressed listening to what he was saying, I mean REALLY listennig to it, that I can't complete it.

Let's say it's true that the good feeling I used to get from listening to him has nothing to do with the words. Which is conceivable. Sex certainly has little to do with the words, right? But, words CAN either enhance or ruin sex. I think M's problem is that he is in fact using words, and those words get in the way.

So, here is my suggestion for M, and I offer it free of charge. Stop using words to communicate the experience. Groan, moan, make funny sounds, sing, do whatever you want but using words just gets in the way. And if, as you have said, the experience can NOT be described then the words are totally unnecessary. And they'll just get you in trouble. I mean look at these words you spoke in 1971. Are these words still true? Were they EVER true?

Again my suggestion is just say NO to words!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:45:39 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Additional advice
Message:
If you REALLY want to spread the WORD, why not write to CNN, sky and BBC etc. etc. I'm sure people there would be VERY interested in what you have to say, and I'm sure once they realise you are God incarnate they will be more than willing to hand over their minds to you.

Give up your jet and travel to programs in a battered 2-CV to make you more 'at one' with your followers' experience.

Live on welfare, bring up three kids all under the age of five one your own, move to the Bronx or to some industrial suburb like Milton Keynes (UK), allow yourself only three pairs of underpants and two shirts, wear socks with holes in, eat one meal a day, get mugged and raped, take part in the Bosnian war, swim in the radioactive Irish sea, walk across a minefield, stay in a prison for ten years being tortured, and THEN tell us HOW GREAT AND SIMPLE LIFE IS!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 21:48:10 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Becky
Subject: Additional advice
Message:
Good post there Becky, I agree with what you say and like the way you've said it. Are you in my neck of the woods (London) by the way? You can email your reply if you don't want to state your whereabouts here.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:58:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: S.F.
Subject: Mahartaji's minefield
Message:
Thanks S.F.,

God, there's a lot there. Or, rahter, it's ALL there, isn't it? I especially like 'You have received the shelter of such a thing, you are wearing a bullet-proof coat, such a coat that even when bullets come to you they won’t harm you. It's funny to see current suckers for this asshole scoff at those of us who will admit that we once believed this nonsense. But we did. Boy, did we ever.

I've mentioned this before but I was in my first aspirant phase (Lowther ashram in Toronto, fall, 1972) when one night Mahatma Parlokanand showed up. Increidble, a real living saint! But, sadly, that same night came the tragic news that a car carrying the Detroit 'Bliss Band' had crashed on its way to see Mata Ji (in Philadelphia, I think). Everyone was completely confused. How could premies die like that? It made no sense. Really, I'm not exaggerating. Beyond the natural sense of loss was this THICK confusion as poeple tried to understand. Maharaji was the Lord, he told us often enough that we were completely protected by Him and how? In sentences like the above.

Now we all know that premies will recite the millions of times Maharaji has rejected this kind of claim. Of course he has. He's lightened his promise bit by bit ever since being a guru. (Take a look at that Q & A I posted from early '74: Millenium was 'just great', etc.). The difficulty is that at no time did he ever go back to some earlier statment and rectify whatever 'misunderstanding' it may have caused. So what'd that do? It left layers upon layers of guru quotes. Some are 'guru light', some are 'guru heavy' and some are in between. Again, that's why it's no answer for a premie to say that Maharaji's 'always' just said 'hey, chill, have a Corona, put a few dogs on the barbecue and wait for the chicks to show up'. You know, the typical 'non-threatening, non-demanding' stuff they like to focus on. He ALSO said 'surrender the reigns of your life to me' kind of shit. And he NEVER went back to defuse those little 'peace bombs'.

I mean, does anyone think that a new 'servant', a devotee who is trying to become a real 'human being' who reads:

Evil is the ignorance of our mind. That is, we are ignorant of what is good. So now what is the opposite of good? Bad. And when we are ignorant of good, automatically we are known to bad, and bad is evil. Bad is evil. So naturally we are immersed in evil.

is ever going to forget it? Or even simple little things like:

Wherever we go we can just talk into this walkie-talkie and call Satguru from any distance we want. Because God is omnipresent there is no problem in calling God from anywhere you like. You just have to speak into this walkie-talkie. This walkie-talkie is fixed into us at the beginning, and this is our heart. Whenever we want to, call God and God Himself comes. Whatever we say is answered.

The Guru Papers does an excellent job of explaining how unchecked authoritarians vascillate back and forth on so much of what they say, every twist being just another loop of entanglement on their followers' minds.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 15:13:28 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: S.F.
Subject: Disciple now? READ THIS!
Message:
Well, Jimminy Cricket!!! It's all there, isn't it? Including:

1. I am god;
2. You're own mind is the devil;
3. If you receive knowledge Maharaji will protect you from everything bad;
4. Receiving knowledge will solve ALL your problems;
5. You should meditate on the WORD, ALL the time;
6. You have to serve Maharaji to even BE a man;
7. Maharaji is perfect, 'really perfect.'

This of course, is what is said to those who receive knowledge. It isn't said when he is trying to hook new recruits into his cult. And, as Jim said, he has back peddled, shucked and jived, so much over the years, that he has said this and just about everything else, to allow premies to rationalize anything.

Of course, he takes responsibility for NOTHING he has ever said or done, because he is an incredible asshole.

By the way, would someone send 'Red Heels' a copy of this letter. It very neatly disproves her allegations that BM never said he weas god and never said knowledge would solve all your problems.

Thank you so much for posting this letter. I would request that it become a permanent entry on the website. A very IMPORTANT entry.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 15:50:46 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Forum
Subject: Disciple now? READ THIS!
Message:
This is really too much. Notice how many times he used the word give. Not too subtle, I mean if you're giving up the reigns of your life, what's a trust fund or two? Bulletproof?! that would be a neat trick. This is getting weirder and wierder.

x
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 20:12:59 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Disciple now? READ THIS!
Message:
Joe:

Of course, he takes responsibility for NOTHING he has ever said or done, because he is an incredible asshole.

But, this is a deliberate part of his lisa, er... lila. He has to be an asshole to further our development in Knowledge. The question is, does this mean that only M is perverse, or is it the whole universe? Hammond-Smythe... answers please!

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:15:32 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Disciple now? READ THIS!
Message:
He has to be an asshole to further our development in Knowledge. The question is, does this mean that only M is perverse, or is it the whole universe?

Scott, I'm glad you are finally starting to exhibit some understanding. Of course it's all his lila, and he isn't an asshole in the traditional, or shall we say anotomical sense; he's the most incredible asshole, the lord of all assholes, and he is the perfect asshole. In his perversity he teaches us detachment from that which is non-assholeic. Freeing us from such dualism and darkness, into the dualism of the heart/mind struggle. It's sometimes a hard lesson to learn, but, by his grace it is real and would otherwise be impossible.

We are not talking about just an asshole, we are talking about that, this, those and these assholes. Only BM can reveal that asshole to people who come to him with sincerity, thirst, honesty and understanding.

By his grace,

JW
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 15:46:21 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: S.F.
Subject: Disciple now? READ THIS!
Message:
Dear S.F.
Thank you for this, I know it took you some time. Very little of what was written was nice and pleasant. Most of it was mindless and stupid. I never saw a horse with a hole in its nose for a rein, yuck. I am suprised premies didn't put holes in their noses with little ropes. I don't remember gettin a packet like this at all but maybe I forgot, that is easy for me!
This part:
If you want to give your ego to me, give. I am ready to receive it. If you don’t want to keep it with you, give it to me. I can make utilisation of it. And what is that? I’ll again convert it to something, then I’ll give it back to you. It will help you.
has me wondering what he was going to convert it to, cash!?
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 23:45:59 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: S.F.
Subject: Disciple now? READ THIS!
Message:
Dear SF -Thanks very much for this. I remember it well, which either means I received it when I received Knowledge (although I don't remember getting anything then), or heard it shortly afterwards.

In a way, I feel that it would have been better if Maharaji (aka Guru Maharaj Ji) had just stuck to saying this stuff. Because then everyone would be clear as to where he stood and what he mean. But he has clouded it so much with all the 'Knowledge Lite' BS that no one can understand where he is really coming from anymore. Thus we have all these poor premies on here talking about their 'heart' and so forth. And no one can understand what they are saying - least of all those of us who received knowledge on the terms that you have stated.

Thanks again, SF
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 12:07:53 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: All
Subject: UNDERSTAND THIS!
Message:
OK. I've read it.Nowhere does Maharaji say he's God. On the contrary what he say is 'Whenever WE (You, the listener and me, the speaker) want to, call God and God Himself comes. Whatever WE say is answered'.Nor does he say he, Prem Pal Rawat, is perfect. In the first instance he is talking about HIS Guru. He said, 'I can bear it. (MY) Guru Maharaj Ji has given me so much, so much resistance, that I can resist everything that is bad for me etc' and he then said, '...try to be a good devotee, a PERFECT devotee of that Guru who is Himself perfect, who is really perfect'. So he is clearly saying that the devotee can be as perfect as the Guru.You guys really need to lift your game. Your whole trip is based on sloppy or wilful misrepresentation.PT
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:10:50 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: free advice for pt ! !
Message:
Dear Passing Thru:

Are you seriously saying you UNDERSTAND this stuff?

What does it mean to be 'perfect'?
What does it mean when he says guru is perfect?
Isn't the guru claiming to be perfect?

Oh, I know, he's perfect because he can reveal perfection, right?

Why is breath any more perfect than a sunset? So that means the first person who showed me a sunset is also perfect?

Here is my free advice:

your line of argument should be that M was just a kid of 12 years old when he said this stuff, he had no idea what he was saying or claiming to be. He's grown up now, that was then, this is now, get past it, get on with your life, yada yada yada.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:29:44 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Passing Thru
Subject: free advice for pt ! !
Message:
How long have you been involved? I can remember dancing with MJ to the tune of 'The Lord of All the Universe came down to show the way.' I bought into this. I did let go and felt great. I felt great at the Miami program May 8-10, 1998, too.

However, for years and years, dispite rarely missing a video, meditating 3-4 times a week (I would miss a few days--that must be it), financially supporting the trip, travelling as often as I could, and helping out with my time, I DID NOT FEEL ALL THAT GREAT.

I would never have stayed more than a couple of years, but I believed the MJ was the Lord, so I had to hang in. Years of hearing that nothing but him and K mattered, and years of not being able to completely surrender have definitely taken me to a strange place. I bet you are there too if you look.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:04:43 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Gail's Email
Message:
Maharaji makes it absolutely clear to premies and people asking for Knowledge, that they need to practice one hour a day minimum. My experience is that an hour a day keeps the blues away. If you're doing less, expect less.PT
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 00:08:53 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: This shit makes me sick!
Message:
Pardon the rant...but this makes me sick: 'Let's blame Gail for not meditating enough. Let's just blame everyone here for not being devoted enough.' Sorry, but you aren't scoring any points with that argument, PT. Scaring the premie lurkers, maybe. But those of us with some sense see though your transparency like the Saran Wrap that it is.

Gail, don't listen to that crap. It's a sick cult mind game that they like to play. You could have meditated all day everyday and you wouldn't have felt any better. Just ask John about that...John, wasn't it you who meditated all day before?
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 13:24:31 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: This shit makes me sick!
Message:
i agree, VP, sanctimonious laying down of the law again. Was Gail not FREE then to have a day when she did NOT meditate? Passing Thru does not realise that she's been in this 24 years, she's a grown woman capable of realising when she IS or IS NOT happy.
In Maharaji's own words: 'Don't let anyone else tell you what you are feeling and what you are not feeling'!
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 15:22:09 (EST)
From: Emile
Email: None
To: John
Subject: free advice for pt ! !
Message:
I kinda agree with you. I think it took Maharaji a while to shake-off all the east-Indian mythology and Religion which so many of us seemed to get attached to and messed -up by in the old days. I sure don't see it happening anymore.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 16:34:49 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: free advice for pt ! !
Message:
I sure don't see it happening anymore

Well, how about darshan, Emile. How about that little east-Indian ritual of lining up by the thousands to kiss Maharaji's feet. He just did that in Australia last fall, but maybe you didn't know about that. Seems he is trying to hide it by relegating it to the outback of Australia.

Now as to the Krishna outfits, dancing topless, and calling himself the lord of the universe, satguru, perfect master, and having us sing songs calling him the 'superior power in person' that the 'creator, preserver and destroyer' bow their heads to and pray, well, yes, it did take quite a while to occur to him that these things did tend to lead people to believe that BM claimed to be god. It did take some time for him to grasp that. Do you think Maharaji is just SLOW that way?
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 17:54:49 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: John
Subject: John's Email
Message:
Q: 'what is perfect'. A: without fault for it's purpose.Q: 'what does it mean to say a Guru is perfect. A: the same as it means to say a devotee is perfect,with out fault for his purpose.Q: 'isn't the Guru claiming to be perfect. A: Only for the perfect devotee.PT
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:06:16 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: John's Email
Message:
Oh, THAT explains it! Now I understand!
I'm going back to embrace the Holy Lotus Feet.
Thanks so much PT, I've finally seen the light! (again)
Jai Satchitanand!

PS Premies...aren't they something!
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:12:30 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Gerry's Email
Message:
What part of my posting do you object to?PT
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:31:13 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: John's Email
Message:
PT,

I think you are probably a nice and sincere person.

Where did you get that Q&A thing? Did you make it up? In any case, you posted it, so it must mean something to you. What's the point? That you understand circular reasoning?

Come on, snap out of it. You really, really sound like you've been programmed. Do you think this is a possibility? Believe it or not, I do care that you are trapped in this cult even though I don't personally know you.

Try this: say this six times fast: 'I am an independent person. I don't need a guru to tell me how to live my life. My experiences in meditation are my own and not the 'grace' of anyone else.

There. Feel better now? You're FREE.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:20:02 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: You're a silly goose.
Message:
PT:

Your whole trip is based on sloppy or wilful misrepresentation.PT

So, you must be saying that Shri Hans was God, but PPR was not? Do you understand anything about succession, and the fact that if A=B and B=C, then A=C? I get the impression that if he came right out and said 'I am God' you'd be able to rationalize that as some sort of generic statement of faith, that we all are, indeed, God. He plays word games, sure, but they are really pretty transparent given that he expected to be treated as the Lord of the Universe. If I sat down on a throne with those words inscribed over my head would you be so complacent, I wonder? BTW, my Dad was God too. (At least that's what he told me. Only my mother has serious doubts.) Now, if A=B....

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:21:28 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott's Email
Message:
But in the material we're discussing, he didn't say 'I am God' or 'My Guru is God'. In fact, he said quite the contrary.Please stick to the words we're discusssing.RegardsPT
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:10:37 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Passing through
Subject: Like shit through a goose!
Message:
PT:

Well, apart from the not inconsequential fact that he sat under a fucking sign that read 'LORD OF THE UNIVERSE,' and that we have countless instances in which he refers to himself as various manifestations of the godhead, and is come to save the world (look in the archives, and on other parts of the website), let's suppose you are correct and he has never said he is God or any sort of perfected being. What then is 'lila' all about, prey tell? How is it that you insist on referring to his rather perverse lifestyle and the way he treats others (his ingratitude, gluttony, not to mention infidelity) as some sort of divine 'game.' Since he is not divine that would seem to indicate that perversity is just what it seems to be. Take the two bran cells you have left and rub them together, to see if you can get something started.

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:31:52 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: What's good for the goose
Message:
I haven't seen the photo you're refering to.We're all manifestations of the god head.I'd don't insist on refering to anything as 'a divine game'. The Indian concept 'Lila', I think, refers to antics of the Hindu diety Krishna and his gopis. Life can be like that.PT
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:47:29 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Don't Lie
Message:
Hate to interject, but I saw a video from Long Beach in 1997, in which Daya sings a song to BM at a program saying that 'Maharaji is lila, lila and his game has just begun.' 'Lila' was spoken about frequently as the perfect master's game when I was a premie,and it is STILL a part of Maharaji'c cult. Your plaintiff statements of ignorance about this are disingenuous at best.
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 18:27:46 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: What lie?
Message:
Where's the lie. I didn't claim ignorance, I objected to Scott's false claim that I 'insist on refering to Maharaji's lifestyle as a divine game or lila'. I have said nothing of the sort.PT
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 20:53:42 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: I beg your pardon???
Message:
PT:

You've not answered my question. If PPR's 'foibles' are not part of a game or lila then is he or is he not human? And within the set of standards we usually apply to ordinary, run-of-the-mill humans are not his 'foibles' on the verge of perversity? Is this your qualification for leadership? I think you've taken the wrong tack here, as Gerry pointed out.

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 22:37:31 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Like shit through a goose!
Message:
I love it!
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 00:01:58 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott, I fell out of my seat..
Message:
'Well, apart from the not inconsequential fact that he sat under a fucking sign that read 'LORD OF THE UNIVERSE,' and that we have countless instances in which he refers to himself as various manifestations of the godhead, and is come to save the world...'

Hilarious, and true.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:35:27 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Do You Think We're Idiots?
Message:
God, you must really think people are idiots and can't see what is plainly written in front of them, like when you say:

Nor does he say he, Prem Pal Rawat, is perfect.

The last line of what is posted, as said by 'Shri Guru Maharaj Ji' is:

So try to be a good devotee, a perfect devotee of that Guru who is Himself perfect, who is really perfect.

DUH! The guy who is saying this calls himself 'GURU Maharaji Ji.'
Are you honestly saying he is referring to some other guru who is 'really perfect' but not him? Give me a break. The revisionism and rationalization of premies is truly disgusting. You ought to be ashamed. By the way, in case you haven't noticed, Prem Pal Singh Rawat, is, or claimed to be, Guru Maharaj Ji.

But wait, you get even worse when you say:

So he is clearly saying that the devotee can be as perfect as the Guru

No, you idiot, he says the devotee can become a perfect devotee not a perfect guru. As he clearly states, it's only the 'Guru (him) who is perfect really perfect.

Please don't insult our intelligence further.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:43:05 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW's Email
Message:
Dear JW,If you go back through the paragraph it is clear he is talking about his Guru Maharaj Ji, who has given him so much. Maharaji is a devotee of his Guru and when he is says 'be a perfect devotee to the perfect Guru', he is talking about himself as much as anyone. He constantly refers to Shri Hans as his teacher and clearly identifies himself as his devotee. The title Guru Maharaji applies to a situation not one person in particular.As for your 'perfect' comment, a perfect flower is just as perfect as a perfect leaf. Perfect means 'without fault for the purpose'. A perfect teacher can have perfect students, neither can be more perfect than the other.PT
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:05:13 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: When In Doubt Make Stuff UP!l
Message:
the title Guru Maharaji applies to a situation not one person in particular.

Well, I was a premie for 10 years and that's the FIRST time I have heard THAT little bit of nonsense. When people asked BM what his name was, as I have seen on many occasions, he said: 'Guru Maharaj Ji.' He NEVER said his name was something else and that 'Guru Maharaj Ji' is a situation. Don't be ridiculous. He said endlessly that the whole point of his trip was that 'Guru Maharaj Ji,' the perfect master, was alive and walking on the planet and that's who he was, make no mistake about it. I thought I asked you to please not insult our intelligence.

As for your 'perfect' comment, a perfect flower is just as perfect as a perfect leaf. Perfect means 'without fault for the purpose'. A perfect teacher can have perfect students, neither can be more perfect than the other.

He said he was Guru Maharaj Ji and he said guru was perfect, REALLY PERFECT. I think most people know what 'perfect' means. The dictionary says it means 'in a state of undiminished and highest excellence; without defect; flawless.' I think your revisionsist attempts at defining away these statements don't get very far with anyone with a brain. He called himself a guru. He said guru was perfect and 'greater than god.' How do you explain-away THAT?

Moreover, maybe he says you can be a perfect devotee, but he CLEARLY said that Guru Maharaj Ji (himself) is just plain PERFECT, PERIOD, end of sentence. There is not modifier. There is a BIG difference there, and talking about leaves and flowers doesn't explain it away.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:53:41 (EST)
From: Passingthru
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Stuff reduction
Message:
Dear JW,I quick trip to India will show you that Guru Maharaji Ji's are a dime a dozen. Its a desription. Like 'Hydraulic Engineer'.What distinquishes them is what they teach.No. He didn't say in the talk I was commmenting on that 'He was perfect'. He had already identified the 'Guru Maharaj Ji' he was refering was his teacher not him (Prem Pal Rawat).The 'greater than God' quote is 'God is great, but greater is Guru because he reveals God'. Its the stilted Indian truth that when you are dieing of thirst ' Water is great but greater is the waterman beause he is the one who brought it to you and saved your life' A true situation I would have thought.Finally,really perfect is perfect, its like saying really white is whiteRegardsPT
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 04:03:39 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Do You Think We're Idiots?
Message:
Yes...just look at the TITLE: Guru=he who reveals light and dispells darkness + Maharaj=great king+ Ji=a phrase showing respect or status.

Or how about Satgurudev=The highest most true of all Guru. So whether or not he claims to be god, it is expressed in the title he accepts and with which he refers to himself. Did he have an identity crisis when he chose to be called only Maharaji or master? Or rather, is it not really that different? Why didn't he change to his given human name, Mr.Prempal Singh Rawat?

Carol
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:57:05 (EST)
From: S.F.
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: You understand this, plonker!
Message:
Look, P.T., I'm going to put paid to this nonsense once and for all! I've spent the afternoon typing up some letters written by M. himself and published in Divine Light magazine in 1971. In one of these he writes, and I quote exactly, 'Listen to me, for you will hear God. Understand me, for you will understand God. I am always with you; it is you who should be with me to harmonize this world.'

In another letter M. writes, 'I can show you God.' Now, P.T. what part of those quotes don't you understand? If you have the merest shred of judgement left in your brain, concede you're wrong and get a life!

I'm proof-reading through my typing and the whole thing will be posted within the next two or three hours. Look out for a thread entitled, THE SMOKING GUN.

Regards,

S.F.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:58:26 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: S.F.
Subject: SF's Email
Message:
In English grammar, the 'full stop' denotes a break. In a transcript from a speech, you have no idea how long that break was.Many seconds may have passed between one sentance was uttered and another. But clearly in the passage you quote the idea ' you will see and understand God', is entirely seperate from the idea 'I am with you always'. It in no way equates to 'I am God'. And the second quote 'I can show you God' not only indicates the Maharaji doesn't see himseld as God but is an entirely subjective experience that you cannot deny.PT
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:35:24 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: PT, you really shouldn't
Message:
PT,

You're making a real fool of yourself here. But, if you insist on playing the fool, here's a new stage prop:

'Q - To whom should we give our devotion?

A - Guru.

Q - Shouldn't we give our devotion to God?

A - What is God?

Q - Well, Guru is a personification of God in this Earth, right?

A - I told you yesterday: Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? **** When God has come here, then what is the need to give devotion to God there?'

Care to explain this one for us?
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 20:18:49 (EST)
From: S.F.
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: SF's Email
Message:
Well now I've got you. Read my posts above entitled THE SMOKING GUN 1 & 2. Your comments about speech transcription, specious at best, are totally irrelevant. When did M. ever speak slowly enough to make pauses change his meaning? And the fact remains, most of those quotes were not from a speech. They were from letters written by M. himself.

Look, I'm not entirely without sympathy for you. After all, you are brainwashed and could possibly plead insanity. Why don't you salvage some dregs of dignity by conceding defeat like a gentleman and go on your way?

Regards,

S.F.
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 09:37:33 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Applause.......
Message:
Hi PT,

I have to applaud the change in style of your posts during the last little while. You have actually begun to respond to questions about Maharaji and his activities.

Trouble is that you are forced to use the same kind of convoluted logic that he does and now you are backed into a corner where, apparantley, he is not claiming to be special, you are all devotees of Shri Hans, we are all part of the godhead and perfection is a function of utility. Your ability to continually rationalise Maharaji's nonsense will soon lead to experiencing a sharp pain in your arse, caused by the insertion of your head.

Seriously though, if you truly believe Maharaji endorses your democratic spirituality, try testing it by selling your magazines or your coffee mugs (or anything else for that matter) at one of his programs. Try pissing on his commercial parade why doncha. You wouldn't be the first premie to be threatened with legal action.

Let's say, for the sake of world peace, that we accept your version of things. Here are a series of challenges:

1. Get Maharaji, or anyone else in EV, to endorse that view.
2. Get more than 5 premies to endorse that view.
3. Encourage discussion of your view among premies.
4. Canvas other premies for a concensus view of any sort.

You will soon discover what Maharaji thinks about you and your views. Good luck.

regards

Richard
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 14:29:34 (EST)
From: jim
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: right on, Richard!
Message:
Believe it or not, they still say that here in Canada. (Luckily, no one I know listens to Loverboy though).
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:14:24 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: response to Stephen H
Message:
Dear Stephen,
Sorry this has taken so long to get to and you may just end up disapointed and frustrated anyway, sorry if that is the case.
I think it is great that you think people are capable of many subjective states of mind or experiences. That is really all I feel as well but some here don't think that and don't have room for allowing others to express these experiences without feeling that these posts are a waste of time and point to the poster's ridiculous delusions. I don't give a damn if they are objective experiences and I don't have the time or inclination to do research on the subject. I know you said you weren't sure if this really applied to me and I am not sure if what I've said convinces you that it does or doesn't apply to me now. I have friends who talk about visions of past life experiences but I have had none. I choose to be open to the possibility of anything being possible yet not giving over my whole hearted belief without some kind of proff, even if that proff comes as some experience I may have.
I am very put off by excessive (I had a much better word in my mind but can't spell for shit) prices some new age'ers charge. I went to a phycic fair years ago with some friends and only one of us had unlimited funds and spent $60 on this and that. I wouldn't have spent it if I did have the money. To me that is like the BM rip off. I became engaged in conversation with a man who read plams but wasn't set up with a booth. We sat outside on a curb and he read my plam for free. It was fun!
I see your point about 'blind faith' being just another 'cult' like experience and I am not in favor of that. Never have been even as a kid in the Catholic church, it all seemed a bit to hokey to me.
Hope this explains my position to you Stephen. Even if we don't agree I appreciate your position and your right to hold it.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 05:00:17 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Robyn
Subject: response to Stephen H
Message:
I just got back from having dinner at a friend's house.
She has recently returned from 7 months in India, spending
some time at the ashram of who she considers to be Divine Mother.
We discussed a channel we both know. Her point was that the
channel wasn't smart enough to come up with channeled wisdom.
I am amazed with such different worldviews that we are friends.
We watched Red Corner with Richard Gere who is an advocate of
Tibet independence. World Tibet Day is coming up July 5 or 6
(the birthday of the current Dalai Lama) and their is a movement
for an interdenominational prayer this Sunday for religious
freedom. I downloaded material for a local temple. I didn't
know what to write you and this stuff came to mind.

Dragged into service,
Stephen
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 09:37:13 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: response to Stephen H
Message:
Dear Stephen,
I'll write just in case you have time and check in here. Otherwise no problem. When you said you didn't know what to say I wonder if it because you don't have the time, which is fine, how could I feel any differently! Or did you think the discussion was over, also fine.
Thank you for sharing what was on your mind when you wrote and reminding me of that movie, I had wanted to see it also.
If you want to continue this topic or not is fine with me Stephen, it is all good :).
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:32:42 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Having to be anonymous...
Message:
...SUCKS! (Well, okay, sometimes it's fun) But it isn't my fault. It is a by-product of a cult. A cult that instills fear on so many different levels. It sets up relationships outside of the cult for failure. It destroys families, friendships. All for the sake of spirituality and enlightenment and happiness in life???? Looking at the inside of your eyeballs???? I DON'T THINK SO!!!! I was just thinking of how screwed up this is after reading a post by Selena below. She is talking about how she can't even be free to tell her stories here. The same is true for me. Isn't it sad that things have to be like this? (Thank God for email-snicker).

I know some people feel that we could just tell our names and everything would be okay, but it really isn't quite that simple for me. It involves other people-children. And that is very screwed up. Yeah, I could just come on here and say 'This is who I am'. I COULD make that choice, but then I would have to consider the consequences of that choice. And they would not be good. Or I could quit posting, but it is pretty important to me to be here. Maybe I am being selfish and should stop posting anyway. Sorry for the rant, but this is on my mind.

Is there any other place on the net where people have to change their names for fear of reprisals? Sometimes I feel as if I am living in a different country with all of the secrecy and fear involved with this.

If you know who I am PLEASE don't out me, this is not a request for that. I just had to get this off of my chest after reading Selena's post below. Well, other Anons, what are your thoughts on this? Does it get on your nerves, too? Do you just wish that you could tell it all here? I often wish I could hear all of your stories, too and that is frustrating as well.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:45:51 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Having to be anonymous...
Message:
VP

I understand the emotion behind being anon (fear of reprisals) but not the logic. Is there anything to be afraid of from BM? He seems like such a pathetic impotent little jerk to me, but certainly I could be missing something here.

Would you mind elaborating on this?

Gerry- Hammered by the ex-lord rawat in 98?
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:57:36 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Having to be anonymous...
Message:
Dear Gerry - I wrote a post on this to Premie-Ji a few days ago. I don't think most people are afraid of reprisals from M, but there are a lot of people on this site who fear reprisals from other premies: family feuds, custody battles, loss of visitation rights, and just plain losing friends. Also, there are some nutty premies out there, and at least one person has had a potentially violent situation erupt while telling a premie 'friend' that s/he did not want to follow M anymore.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:46:23 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: stalking@freewheeling.com
To: VP
Subject: Having to be anonymous...
Message:
VP:

I seem to have lost your email address. I was using Netscape for awhile and may have failed to transfer it back to IE.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:46:41 (EST)
From: Gail MacDougall
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: VP
Subject: Having to be anonymous...
Message:
I decided to tell you all my real name last week, so that I wouldn't ever go back to the cult. It felt good for me to get rid of the bully.

For you it is different. Perhaps an ex-wife or husband might preclude you from seeing your children or whatever.

Your posts have been a great inspiration to me. VP or Vincent Price (I doubt it!), I'm glad you're here.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:00:14 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Gail, Scott, Gerry
Subject: Having to be anonymous...
Message:
Gerry,
I agree that BM couldn't touch me...of course now he HAS said we are his ememies...just kidding. I'm not afraid of him, though some anons may be. Especially if they were once devoted to him and aren't sure whether or not he has any 'magic' powers. That is outrageous to me, but I have heard people talk that way before so I shouldn't laugh about it. I don't believe that he can hurt me, no.

Gail,
You are much closer in your guess about why I have to be anon. It was sure nice to see you come out on the forum. Felt good to me, even though I wasn't doing it myself :) Thanks for those kind words, too.

Scott,
I'll email you, but it may not be until tonight. (I have a new address, so even if you found mine, it wouldn't do you any good.)
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 18:08:07 (EST)
From: RT
Email: omm
To: Gail MacDougall
Subject: Your song is ready to go...
Message:
...but you need the music. When you find a recording of Gordon Lightfoot's >Race Among The Ruins,< Vol. 2 of Gord's Gold, tell me and it goes up.

You will like this.
Frame it!

RT
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:52:17 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: VP
Subject: Having to be anonymous...
Message:
Dear VP,
LOVE YOU HONEY! and yeah, thank god for email, eh?
Love,
Robyn

I do have a great respect for all those anon's out there and value their contributions just as much as those of us free to be totally who we are.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:10:00 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Having to be anonymous...
Message:
Dear VP,
I am myself semi anonymous. Lots of the exes know my real name and where I live. But I do not care to post my name here. Anyone who knew me then can tell from my posts who I am. That actually does bother me. But I guess I feel I am just one of many here and I was never that important of a premie on the heirarchy.
I think kids and present non premie lives are good reasons not to post your name. My husband I love dearly has never been a premie and I am sure at no point in his life would have been susceptable to rawat. He sometimes reads a post I think can give him a picture of what it was like. He loved the pseudo satsang 'he lifts his leg' post. But he would not appreciate my using my real name here.
I could be easily named if someone wanted to. I would not like it but figure that is the risk I take posting here.
I really like your posts. I hear we are among the 30 somethings here. I do not question why people remain anonymous I think there are all sorts of reasons a person would choose to post this way. I am glad though that all do not have to I think it sends a positive mesage to the premies who read this.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 17:10:39 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: Having to be anonymous...
Message:
My anonymity is a complex thing - there is the crazy premie element - I am afraid of one of them in particular.

Also, there is a deep seated fear and shame that is personal and impossible to express right now, and being anon helps me be in this site without that shit getting in the way. I don't even want to touch that at the moment. I am not ready. Six months isn't all that long after all. I need time to heal and the anon thing helps.

I don't fear M but do fear the bullshit I have seen around him.
Sorry about the stories not coming fast enough, really they are your run-of-the-mill drug deviant lifestyle craziness, with a twist - religion!! It's true it could make for some good stuff. Give it time. I told Katie once with the talent I have seen on this forum we could make a lot of money with a book if we collaborated.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 17:37:49 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Having to be anonymous...
Message:
Selena,
I agree that we could write a book. It would be awesome. I have thought a lot about that actually. We'd probably be rich and sell millions of copies...are there that many premies around anymore in the West, though?

BTW that premie craziness you are talking about is part of why I am anon, too. If your stories are never forthcoming here, that is just the way it is. I wouldn't worry about it. I am not going to anymore.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 17:47:09 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: Telling your age..G's mom
Message:
G's Mom,
Thanks for that post. I enjoy reading your posts a lot. I doubt my ball and chain (just kidding, dear) would be too thrilled about it if I posted here with my real name.

I do think it sends a message, too. People don't want to use their real names here. That is pretty unsettling--if you are using your mind, that is.

On a lighter note, you shouldn't have told everyone your age...the premies find out and they start scolding you for hanging around with such bad influences...snicker!! Seriously, sometimes premies treat me like I am 4 and can't cross the street by myself.

VP
Thirtysomething and can cross the street
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 10:50:13 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Bad news for you VP
Message:
VP, you mean you really didn't know?

How old you are when you first are told about The Master is how old you stay for the rest of your life. That's why I will be 21 eternally. That's also why it's not recommended to talk to children about it.

What DO they teach in the schools these days?
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 20:04:23 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Having to be anonymous...
Message:
Hi VP,

Maharaji doesn't have anything to do with my purpose in remaining anonymous. I figure I kissed his feet enough times, he can kiss my ass.

The real reason I remain anonymous is that as a result of the debauchery in which I engaged during my early premie years, I can't remember much. And what I do remember isn't really relevant here or suitable for publication world wide.

Then again, if I were to reveal my true identity, I may get to find out what I did during some of those years. Hmmm... It's a thought, but not today.

Love to all,
eb
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 21:52:06 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Having to be anonymous...
Message:
Hi eb
Welcome back!! Yes that debauchary is the real issue behind
my shame thing I was talking about earlier in this thread. I can't believe some of the things I did!1 (stop drooling Gerry!!)
Too bad we can't lighten up about it, it's like that old saying
'you are as sick as the secrets you keep' but..I agree..Not today.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 09:44:57 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: eb
Subject: Having to be anonymous...
Message:
Dear eb and Selena,
I don't have to be anon because, thank god, most of my 'debauchery' issues took place outside of premiedom :), but eb I do relate to what you said about others possibly filling in some of the blanks from your past, alas I have had that practical experience.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 10:33:18 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: VP and ALL
Subject: Having to be careful...
Message:
Dear VP,

I can understand why you wish to retain your anonymity and you have every right to be cautious about risking any aspect of your current setup. I thought long and hard about giving more than just my first name. I still havn't written a journey because some of the details would affect others whose status remains in limbo.

Just recently I was having an email conversation with an old girlfriend who took knowledge with me and I asked her if she still considered herself a premie. She said that she didn't but still liked going to see Maharaji occasionally and 'anyway why was I interested'. So I mentioned the forum and that was the last I have heard from her. Maybe her email is broken but I don't think so.

The anonymity issue may be bigger than we think. We had so many secrets taken from us in DLM and were subjected to so much personal exposure that protecting our personal identity is a natural recourse. Has everyone forgotten the devotion police recording and publicising your every spiritual error?

Hang on to your name VP, it's yours.

Regards

Richard
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 12:35:43 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Having to be careful...
Message:
I remain anonymous because of the frequent agression directed towards me by people like Richard. No where else in the world do I experience this.PT
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 12:53:23 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Having to be careful...
Message:
PT,

See, you're getting something here you might have otherwise missed. Come on, it's not that bad is it? Really hurtin' are you?

This is an Ex site, after all. Did you really expect to be showered with love and respect when you are an apologist for the cult and the explotive guru/liar? This guy (BM) has done incalculable damage to thousands. You're hearing only the tip of the iceberg here.

My experience with newsgroups is that for every ten 'posters' there are hundreds of 'lurkers'. We are not a minority. After all most (I've heard 90%) people come to their senses and slough off the guru poison in time. Guess you're just slow.

I loved your cult blind re-interpretation of the the BM's sadsong, btw. Can't face the truth can you? Why, why, why are you so obsessed with this guy? I'm here for the entertainment and the stimulus in conversation with these intelligent and honest people. I could care less about the BM.

I considered stopping posting at one point because I had little to add to the conversation on BM. But I reconsidered because of the value of new friendships made here and the priviledge of communicationg with some really great people.

Why don't you lighten up and have some fun in life. The cult trip is a real drag. Just say ''fuck it.'' It's easy and you'll love your new found freedom. Guaranteed. And you get to keep all the internal experiences you want and can come here for community and conversation. Deal?
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:00:49 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Gerry
Subject: Gerry
Message:
Dear Gerry,
So glad you reconsidered. You are my birthday and birth order buddy and I'd miss you something awful!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:38:28 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: PT, you're being silly
Message:
I remain anonymous because of the frequent agression directed towards me by people like Richard. No where else in the world do I experience this.

Let me get this straight, if it weren't for 'agressive' ex's, you'd post under your own name? Really? Like, what is it you're afraid of? Now, this doesn't have anything to do with the fact taht Maharaji is now on record for having discouraged premies from talking about him on the net, is that what you're telling us?

As for the unique reception you get here, what, are you stupid? You're a premie, this is the only place in the world where people tell the truth about Maharaji. You come here to defend him and, in the process, say absolutely idiotic things (I laughed out loud when I read your pathetic attempt to explain away Maharaji's words. Hey, dummy, you want MORE quotes? Quotes where Maharaji actually says he is the Supreme Lord in Human Form? No, of course not. You're just playing a game.). And then you gripe about people calling you on it.

Too funny! Thanks. Thanks for showing ALL the other premies who read this site but don't post just what it looks like when someone tries to get Maharaji out of the 'trouble' he's in with his former followers.

The walls are cracking, PT.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:20:49 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Quote time
Message:
No Jim. I didn't say 'agressive ex premies', I said 'agression directed at me by people like Richard'. They mean diffferent things. Be more careful when you tell me what I said.From my experience I'm far more likely to be hurt by the radiation from this computor than from Maharaji.Let's have another quote.PT
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 10:08:40 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: r2harris@plymouth.ac.uk
To: Passing thru
Subject: I humbly apologise............
Message:
Hey PT, you read my post, that's great man.

No where else in the world do I experience this.

Well besides stating the obvious, you should get out more, I don't really know what to say. You dumped on a serious conversation, caught me at a particularly low ebb (which should have been obvious from the post) and, as far as I'm concerned, you got what you deserved.

But don't blame me for your use of the PT handle. You have used that all along. It's my guess that you are more scared of the censure from the premie community than any perceived aggression on my part.

regards

Richard
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 17:17:43 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Thank you, Richard
Message:
Richard,
What a very kind post. Thank you so much.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 06:22:22 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: PPR is really a sculptor!
Message:
There is a funny post from a french speaking ex on the French forum I'll try to translate.

As some premies are anxious about answering questions regarding PPR's income, that person (Elise) reports they've been told by EV's organizers to answer that he is a 'sculptor' and that he has 'invented' 'things', and that he lives from that.
The premies shouldn't talk about his cars, his residences, his yachts, etc!
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 07:08:26 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: PPR is really a sculptor!
Message:
JM

Yeah, and his chosen medium is bullshit.

Richard
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 08:49:18 (EST)
From: RT
Email: ommm
To: all Ex-pertinants
Subject: Even Cowgarls get zee Truth-2
Message:
This ties in with your post Jean-Michel! Sculpture as Therapy?

Verbatim Transcript From the Dove Audio book on tape, © 1993
‘Even Cowgirls Get the Blues’ Author: Tom Robbins. Read by Michael Nouri, who has the Knowledge.

+++

Sissy asked : “What do you mean, Oriental therapists?

“Oriental Therapists”, repeated the Chink, uninterestedly. He reached into his robe and pulled out several Juniper berries and began to juggle them expertly. Too bad the Ed Sullivan show was off the air.

“What does Oriental Therapy have to do with Jesus?,” Sissy asked. – “Or with you?

“Well, if you can’t figure it out for yourself” said the Chink, “Meher Baba, Guru Maharaji, Jesus Christ, and all the other holy men who amassed followers in recent times have had one gimmick in common-each of them demanded unquestioning devotion. ‘Love me with all you heart and soul and strength, and do my bidding without fail.’ That has been the common requirement. Well, great. If you can love someone with that completeness and that purity, if you can devote yourself totally and unselfishly to someone, and that someone is a benevolent someone, then your life cannot help being the better for it. Your very existence can be transformed by the power of it. And the peace of mind it engenders will persist as long as you persist…but it’s therapy. Marvelous therapy. Wonderful therapy. Ingenious therapy. But only therapy!

It relieves symptoms, ignores disease. It doesn’t answer a single universal question. Or put a person one step closer to Ultimate Truth. Sure, it feels good and I’m for anything that feels good. I won’t knock it. But let nobody kid himself. Spiritual devotion to a popular teacher with an ambiguous dogma is merely a method of making experience more tolerable. Not a method of even understanding experience, or of even accurately describing it. In order to tolerate experience, a disciple embraces a master. This sort of reaction is understandable, but it’s neither very courageous nor very liberating. The brave and liberating thing to do is to embrace experience and tolerate the master, that way we might at least learn what it is we are experiencing, instead of camouflaging it with love. And if your master truly loved you, he would tell you that; in order to escape the bonds of earthly experience you bind yourself to a master. Bound is bound. If your master really loved you, he would not demand you devotion he would set you free – from himself first of all.

You think I am behaving like a cold-hearted ogre because I turn people away. Quite the contrary. I’m merely setting my pilgrims free before they become my disciples. That’s the best I can do.

Sissy nodded in appreciation. “That’s fine, that sincerely is fine. The only problem is your pilgrims don’t know that.

“Well, it’s up to them to figure it out. Otherwise I’d be dishing them the same pre-cooked and packaged pap. Everybody has got to figure out experience for himself. I’m sorry. I realize most people require externalize objective symbols to hang on to. That’s too bad. Because what they are looking for whether they know it or not, is internalized and subjective. There are no group solutions. Each individual must work it out for himself. There are guides all right. But even the wisest guides are blind in your section of the burrow. No, all a person can do in this life is gather about him his integrity, his imagination and his individuality. And with these ever with him, out front and in sharp focus, leap into the dance of experience. Be your own master. Be your own Jesus. Be your own flying saucer! Rescue yourself. Be your own valentine. Free the heart!

…“You used the word freedom fairly regularly”, she began, “exactly what does freedom mean to you?

The Chink’s reply was swift. “Why, the freedom to play freely, in the universe of course!

+++

RT
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:05:47 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Even Cowgarls get zee Truth-2
Message:
RT:

The brave and liberating thing to do is to embrace experience and tolerate the master, that way we might at least learn what it is we are experiencing, instead of camouflaging it with love. And if your master truly loved you, he would tell you that; in order to escape the bonds of earthly experience you bind yourself to a master. Bound is bound. If your master really loved you, he would not demand you devotion he would set you free – from himself first of all.

This must be why he's such a pr_ck. He deliberately tries to lose the better, more independent devotees. (Hey, it's just a theory!)

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 17:55:49 (EST)
From: RT
Email: om
To: Scott T.
Subject: Even Cowgarls get zee Truth-2
Message:
Scott, that makes sense due to the loss of other leaders over the years, the people here, the large percentage of driftaways (%?)AND the Premies who read this on the QT... 'OH-Hi-how are you?
Come on in, the surfing is great!'

Dependent thinkers give time and therefore money.

RT
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 18:21:48 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Even Cowgarls get zee Truth-2
Message:
RT:

I'm surprised Hammond-Smythe hasn't thought of this involuted theory for M's behavior. The medication must be interfering with his psychosis after all.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 21:45:49 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: My favorite 'Cowgirls' quote
Message:
Here's my favorite 'ECGTB' quote. I even wrote it down, which is good, because I gave my paperback to one of my student workers to take to Ghana with her (wonder what they will think of it there?).

'...Inside the limousine, Miss Adrian continued to talk. Obviously she was distraught. Sissy said nothing. Maybe Sissy was not even listening. Who could tell? Sissy sat as she usually sat, ... smiling. She grinned the invincible soft grin that some people associate with madness; that others attribute to spiritual depth; but that is in reality simply the grin that comes from the secret heart of very private experience.'

Katie

P.S. Get that, M? The secret heart of very private experience??
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 11:38:08 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: PPR is really a sculptor!
Message:
Strange, we never studied him.

Donatello
Michaelangelo
Bernini
Remington
Maharaji?

For profit? I don't think so. Haven't seen his work in any of the galleries.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:17:16 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: VP
Subject: PPR is really a sculptor!
Message:
Dear RT, VP and all,
I think you'll find his works displayed in the glass case in the hall way of Malabui's highest class elementary school!! :))
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:42:21 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: PPR is really a sculptor!
Message:
Robyn,
Is that a joke, or have you seen them?
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:48:42 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: VP
Subject: PPR is really a sculptor!
Message:
Dear VP,
I've been there baby!!! On my day off, I flew to CA to see BM's art displayed at the local elementary school. The pieces were for sale and children and adults were scrambling to snatch them up before he becomes world renouned. You know getting in on a good thing on the ground level.
It was BLISS!! I actually got one of a third eye atop a lotus flower that was a necklace on a swan! I'll have to take a picture and scan it in and send it to you. It is like darshan. I think I'm joining up again so I'll see you guys at a video right!
Love and bliss VP,
Sister Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:06:45 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: A piece of work?
Message:
Okay, now I feel badly for doubting our Lord...snicker

I am confused. You HAVE a piece of art from the LOTU himself? Is it a necklace or a sculpture? In either case will you promise to bring it here next spring? Promise?

(Okay, if Jim buys it for $5,000 you are allowed to part with it sooner-heh! heh!)

VP
Saw some paintings of third eyes on vacation and snickered at the artist
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:20:25 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: VP
Subject: A piece of work?
Message:
Dear VP,
Silly willy, it is all a big joke, like I'd have the money or time or inclination to fly to Malabui to see an art show at an elementary school, get a grip guy!!
No really, it is like an albatrose around your neck, you know what I mean Vern? or is it Vic.
If you think Jim would pay the big bucks for it though, I could get real busy at the jewlery lab at school and see what I could come up with although now I've made it sound all ugly and weird, damn and I am just dying to make something.
Love you, you nut,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:27:03 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Hey mine was a joke, too
Message:
Read it again. I know that you wouldn't take off work and fly to California to see M's work. I was just pulling your leg.

Check out the forum casting call post and the one above it (Social Culture /Cult Culture by Katie)down below. Any Ideas?
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:06:37 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmal.com
To: VP
Subject: Hey mine was a joke, too
Message:
Dear VP,
Well that's it I'm a goof ball! Anyone I know knows I am as gulable as an infant too! Oh well, I really had fun writing that one post about buying that thing. I felt like John Hammond-Smith!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 18:31:52 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Hey mine was a joke, too
Message:
Sure it was!
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:28:14 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: A piece of work?
Message:
Oh great! Now I feel really stupid and I got this puke all over my keyboard too.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 17:12:41 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: A piece of work?
Message:
VP
Do third eyes look different when they are on vacation? : )
Do they look like jellied fire?

Selena --- feeling silly as I avoid calling the lawyer
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 06:15:37 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: hahahahahaha3rd eyes
Message:
Yes, they wear large straw hats and sunglasses.
VP
Has trouble with prepositional phrase placement from time to time
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:20:51 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: PPR is really a sculptor!
Message:
Oh my god, is this true. Yeeeeeeccccchhhhhhh!!!! Spit! Spit!
This is intolerable, the ultimate kitsch.

I'm going to have to go before I barf on my keyboard.

Regards

wuuuullllp!!

Too damn late.

Richard
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:45:33 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: PPR is really a sculptor!
Message:
Dear Richard,

Just a suggestion from my own experience: keep a barf bag on your computer desk. I find it's really handy, and makes clean up a breeze. Saves money, too. I've already had to replace one keyboard. Helps the environment, too: you can re-use one of those plastic grocery bags. They even wash out.

Hope this helps.

Gerry
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:03:53 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Gerry
Subject: PPR is really a sculptor!
Message:
Dear Gerry,
I have a bag fettish, now you all know! My friends can't stop razzing my about it but even I don't puke in them and wash them out!!
A line has to be drawn somewhere for god sake!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:20:48 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Bag ladies
Message:
Robyn,

You too, huh? God, I married one. Patty saves every bag we get. She has bags of bags. Every once in a while I sneak them out the door and give them to the vendors at the Farmer's Market.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:52:42 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Married to one too (off topic)
Message:
My husband does a similar thing, although he's no lady. He washes out all the plastic bags that bread, fruit, etc. come in and saves them. He also washes saran wrap. This is very ecologically sound, but there's a certain point at which I draw the line (bags which have contained cheese, for example. Or bags that have been re-used so many times they've become antiques).

I can't rag on him too much, though. I save boxes. We used to move a lot and never had enough packing boxes, so now it's hard for me to get rid of a box.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:28:44 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Married to one too (off topic)
Message:
Dear Katie,
I love this! I don't wash any bags unless they are bought, you know those fancy shmancy zip lock kind! :)
I don't wash bread bags either, just shake the crumbs out and turn them inside out for a day or two then right into the bag of bread bags!
Jessica did years ago and Jade now, make me buy them sandwich baggies. The refuse to use the bread bags. Kids! :) I really do know it is my nerousis but it is still hard to buy bags!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 20:16:49 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: ReduceReuseRecycle@nomore
To: Katie
Subject: Married to one too (off topic)
Message:
Washes saran wrap?O.K. Katie that does it.If that is where it all leads to I'm quitting the Sierra Club!
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 22:01:27 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Married to one too (off topic)
Message:
No, no, no! Don't quit the Sierra Club (or whatever). I think it is more of a waste-not, want-not thing - at least with him. I probably shouldn't discuss this further, by the way, because he does read the forum!

P.S. There ARE worse flaws in a mate...
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:20:49 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Gerry
Subject: Bag ladies
Message:
Dear Gerry,
Now I feel so close to her! I don't know anyone else with this although I see Katie does!
Once when I was moving and I had to have a child saftey thing on the cabinet to keep it closed and when it opened bags oozed out across the floor. Someone who was helping opened that door and said do we have to take all these? The answer was an emphatic YES!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:37:43 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Bag ladies
Message:
Robyn and Katy,

Patty will be thrilled to know she has kindred souls. And I thought it was her own little quirk...
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 20:16:02 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Gerry
Subject: Bag ladies
Message:
Dear Gerry,
Now ask her if she has a problem when someone touches her right arm or leg, especially the inside of the knee or elbow or between the fingers. If this happens or even if someone is teasing me and just almost touches me there I have a fit putting more pressure in that spot on my left side. I actually went out with a guy once who said he had the same thing!
None of us are ever really alone.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 22:23:38 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Bag ladies
Message:
Robyn,

Now ask her if she has a problem when someone touches her right arm or leg, especially the inside of the knee or elbow or between the fingers

I asked and yes she doesn't like to be touched in the crux of the elbow or knees, right or left. AND (I knew this one) not on the hip bone. The one that sorta sticks out. She can't stand that!

She really likes to be touched other places, though....
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 02:14:58 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Sister Robyn
Subject: I'm dying!
Message:
Robyn,

I don't remember ever seeing you do this before, that may be part of why it KILLED me. You HAVE been learning a lot from all those 'bad examples' on the forum. Keep it coming.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:58:08 (EST)
From: Another
Email: Jim's Rolodex
To: Everyone
Subject: Grace
Message:
Pure breath, within a breath, hallowed, beyond thought and acts merely mortal.
Nectar, sweeter then a million jars of honey, tasted only as the moment dains to allow it appear.
Light, so prevading as to set chatter aside for more then a cursory moment.
Sounds, limitless, ringing chorales of crickets sway to the Angels touch from within infinite silence.
Where is this? Who is this? Why is this? Woe is this? You? I? WE?
Choose thought and you will become thoughts, choose grace and you speak from beyond things finite.
No one forced us to ask for this grace, we are all equal inside the realm of the creator.
There is no more difficult a task on this planet.
Practice, this breath awaits all of us, Pure, Without judjment.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 01:02:08 (EST)
From: seinfeld
Email: None
To: another
Subject: yada yada yada
Message:
yada yada yada
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 02:24:07 (EST)
From: Another
Email: None
To: seinfeld
Subject: yada yada yada
Message:
Ol'e Bob M. kicked the bucket and 'thought' nectar was a state of mind. Do you have any idea what power rests in purity?

And thats Mr. Yada to you, young pup.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 05:03:26 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Another
Subject: Purity
Message:
Dear another,

d'you suppose purity stops you talking like a jackass? Some of the premies who post here actually make sense.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 08:11:14 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Another
Subject: Grace
Message:
How sweet is the nectar? How bright is the light? How melodic is the music? How overpowering is the holy name? How much have you lied to yourself?

These techniques are neat. I have been relying heavily on 3 and 4 myself for the last few weeks in my enlightenment process.

How neat is MJ?
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:24:00 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Gail
Subject: Gail
Message:
Dear Gail,
I don't know how neat BM is but I hear he is quite the artist. I hear his stuff wins blue ribbons at the county fair.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 20:00:41 (EST)
From: Another
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Grace
Message:
Which leads one to ponder if you still practice and there was no moment of learning given, then how would you 'know'. Which 3 and 4 are you taking a stab at, the dictum or the order mused upon in the thread. Either way there are still two missing. Sort of like ol'e Kirpal Singh was missing a couple when he was on tour.

Also a note to Richard from The Jack of all Asses, in another era you would have fed me to the lions, buddy you need some therapy or a stiff scotch. I have a deep body of work covering such diversities as nuclear winter, famine, trite meanderings of the frailty of human relationships and even country ballads.

Just what part of sense are you having trouble with? I trust any and all because the mind has nothing to do with the heart.

This GRACE is Immutable, Infinite, Pure,---------, --------. Fill in the blanks beacuse at best, our individual anomalies will only render useless in the presence of the Creators perfection. That my friends is a law written long before worlds were, ink was drawn, men and or women gave utterance and binary code became a more.

I hold no malice to any but lets bet that when we die, one of us will be right and one of us will be other then that.

In his name and (believe it or not) by the Grace of you know who, Another.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:21:29 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Another
Subject: Grace
Message:
Guess what Another!
We can have all that without Grace from your guru. We use to think he was our guru too but then found it wasn't his gift to give and he is NOT in charge of our experience! It is an inherint ability of any human being, if they choose, nothing to do with the BM.

God, Jim, here I am talking to another premie, gees. You guys need to identify yourselves for me or I may find myself enjoying this a little to much!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:37:38 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Grace and off topic-cats
Message:
here I am talking to another premie

Robyn,

Your doing a great job, too.

God, this new kitty-Sparky-I think I should rename him Maniac or something. He's ripped up the entire house! He runs around and knocks down anything loose on a table or shelf. The place is a wreck!

My arm looks like it when through a shredder from his 'playing.'
Also, he eats cantalope, and loves pizza. I have to give him a bath and cut his claws before I get too weak from loss of blood! This ought to be interesting.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:42:58 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: off topic-cats
Message:
Gerry - advice on claw-clipping (you may already know this.) Wrap him up in a towel with only his head and one front paw sticking out. Then clip as fast as you can. I would DO this BEFORE THE BATH - why does he need the bath anyway, BTW?

Also, if you get the kitten used to playing rough (i.e. really scratching you) they think it's OK and keep doing it when they're big. My sister has a cat that someone taught to 'bite' when it was a kitten. I guess it is cute then but it is not much fun in an adult.

Anyway, cheer up, they grow out of it in about a year. Hope Bocephus is OK, though.

BTW, I forgot to tell you my very favorite cat name: Motorboat (MoBo for short).
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:07:16 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: off topic-cats
Message:
I hadn't thought of that technique for claw clipping, thanks. He needs a bath because he is hairless and his body oils pick up dirt and it sticks to him. When I say hairless I mean his body hair is about a 1/32 inch long or less. Kind like suede. He is ''pet'' quality for a Sphinx, and the show quality cats are truly hairless. They are slick and sort of sticky feeling. He is much nicer tactilely, IMO.

I played rough with him the first day only. Any new scratches are inadvertant. Good advise, though. Bocephus is coming around nicely. They've even played together a little. At first there was a lot of hissing and swatting but it has diminished significantly now.

A year of this, huh? I may start meditating again.

I like ''Mobo'' as in motorboat, but it really wouldn't suit him. More like 'Front end loader,'' 'Backhoe,'' ''Wood chipper,'' or my favorite, ''Meat grinder''
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:19:03 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: off topic-cats
Message:
I love 'Backhoe'! I might use it. Also, I cannot believe you have to bathe him - what a mess! Do they have dry cat shampoo?

I forgot to say that I have taught my cats a few voice commands. One of them is a lot smarter than the other one, so he obeys better. But since he's the alpha male, the other one copies him. Anyway, the BEST command I ever taught them was 'OUCH' (meaning you're hurting me!). It works and they take their claws out. You may need to say it and swat his paw lightly at the same time.

Other commands my cats know are 'STAY' and 'NO'. As I said, one obeys me very well; the other one doesn't.

Good luck. Maybe he'll start playing with Bocephus instead.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:24:05 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: off topic-cats
Message:
Dear Katie,
Here we go again! My dog, the brother of Kenya, Mozart, who died, we use to call him Motor Boy because he was so active and such a clown.
As far as the towel thing, I've found a pillow case with the corner cut out works better as it can't come undone.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:57:33 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Grace and off topic-cats
Message:
Gerry,
Here's a tip for kitten-monsters... you can wear a sweatshirt and pull the sleeves over your fist. That way, Sparky can tear you a new butt and you won't feel a thing. If you don't feel like wearing the sweatshirt, you can just pull the sleeve over your arm and then play roughhouse. When Freddy learned after a few months to pull his claws in, I stopped using the sweatshirt. But he still has 'accidents' and I've got little red scratches on my arm and face.

Another trick is to tickle the top of his butt. When he whips around, it gives you enough time to retrieve your hand. Also, with Freddy, I put my hand on top of his head and he takes his little paws and tries to dislodge my hand off the top of this head trying to bite me. His arms aren't quite strong enough to dislodge my hand but eventually I let him. If I don't get my hand away quick enough, I get it tenderized.

Rick
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:09:58 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Grace and off topic-cats
Message:
Rick,

Thanks for tips You're a very funny guy!
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 21:35:52 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Teeth Like Eyeballs
Message:
Eyes Like Jellied Fire
-----...... HST 1971

And that I think was the handle - that sense of inevitable
victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn't need that. Our energy would simply prevail. There was no point in fighting - on our side or theirs. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave....

====================
Why did I post that? I am finally getting around to putting back my old crumbling copy of Fear and Loathing that I took out to quote from 3 weeks ago, and I found yet another parallel. sigh. At least it's less boring than the M quotes.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 18:28:50 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Teeth Like Eyeballs
Message:
Selena:

This is the apocalyptic vision of the 90s. The little eyeballs winking at us from the gaping mouth of the 'beast.'

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 22:29:36 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Teeth Like Eyeballs
Message:
Yes it ties it all together. To think HST was able to write about and see that in the early 70's.
When was it that our premie wave broke ?
Was it when he closed the ashrams? OR a combination of things perhaps..
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 00:25:35 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Teeth Like Eyeballs
Message:
Selena,
That passage jumped off the page at me in '87 when I read Fear and Loathing. It thrilled me to hear it in the movie. I'd guesstimate the time of that event in premiedom to be December 8, 1980, Lennon's murder. That was the high water mark. The devotional surge that started with BM's satsang in Germany in 1976 (the tube satsang) peaked in all its insanity. The big ball of yarn slowly started unwinding, first with nightly satsang being reduced to a few times a week, and then later the closure of the ashrams.
Rick
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 17:46:55 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I miss op!
Message:
No, not Mili, op. Where are you, op? Please, you haven't answered my questions yet... op, where are you?

By the way, does anyone else know about the fireside satsang Mr. Mole told us about? Maharaji whispering about his enemies?

Holy Moly.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 17:56:44 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I miss op!
Message:
No, not Mili, op. Where are you, op? Please, you haven't answered my questions yet... op, where are you?

Jim, you need a vacation. I think op decided to surrender to the agya of her lord and master and stop talking about knowledge on the internet. Op, if you're reading this, don't pay any attention to Jim. He didn't really mean it.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 19:47:59 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Class Action Suit
Message:
How about suing for mental cruelty, nervous shock or even violations to our fundamental freedoms. From what I've read, no wonder we had little resistance.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 21:34:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: People v. Maharaji
Message:
No, this kind of suit would be really tricky. But, I wonder, does anyone out there know of ANY litigation against Maharaji, successful or not?
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 22:06:46 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: People v. Maharaji
Message:
I like the idea of a lawsuit, even if it doesn't have any chance of a favorable judgment, since it could be a useful vehicle to attract negative press attention to BM. Wasn't there a successful lawsuit against the Hare Krishnas a number of years back by someone who was 16 when they entered the cult? Claimed brainwashing? I think the judgment was quite large, $20 million or so. It'd be worth a try. I'd love to sue BM, not so much to gain any monetary compensation but just as a thank you for cheating me out of 10 years of my life. I think it'd be a great way to get the point across to him that people feel wronged by things that went on in the past (and present, for some of the more recent ex's) and that he might want to re-evaluate his portrayal of a Perfect Master in people's lives.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 22:13:23 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: People v. Maharaji
Message:
Count me in. I have many reasons but they have been countered
at every turn by the following argument:

'How do you know what your life would have been without M?'

I'd like to hear answers to that one. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a BS rationalization but I'd still like to hear from others.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 22:41:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: I love this question too
Message:
'How do you know what your life would have been without M?'

That's kind of what Raja Ji asked me when I complained that I'd given eight years of my life to his brother in his monastic order. 'Well, were you happy?' Hell, sometimes, I guess. Sometimes I was and sometimes I wasn't. Hmmm... I take this back, it's not really the same question.

Well, anyway, I love this question too. The answer's obviously 'who said I did?' to which the Maharaji proponent will say, 'well, you sound like you're saying that your life would have been better' to which the ex-premie says, 'look, for all I know I might have gotten hit by a car, shot by a bullet gun or worse, grabbed by another cult. That's not the point. Life is full of risks. Besides, Maharaji's not running a people warehouse or insurance company; he was offering something specific. I tried to make an informed decision to follow him based on his representations. Following him was a very demanding and extreme endeavour, to say the least. I made that extreme choice based on his words largely because a lot of his words were about why I should trust him. Looking back, one thing's clear: I did NOT make an informed decision. To the contrary, he tricked me.

Now, if Maharaji tricked me in order to deliver something so ultimate I'd never regret the little subterfuge -- kind of like a divine intervention or something -- he MIGHT, just might, be excused for the decpetion. Unfortunately, nothing could be further from the truth. He promised the world and delivered nothing.

Who knows how my life would have turned out? I certainly don't. But the point is, it's MY life, not his.'

To which the Maharaji proponent says something or other and it just keeps on going.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 22:57:22 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim and Selena
Subject: What my life would have been?
Message:
I think it's a really dumb question - how is ANYONE supposed to know that? You could say that about any bad marriage, any failed business partnership, etc. The thing that I dislike about premies asking it is that they always assume that your life would have been WORSE if you hadn't found Maharaji. I know a lot of people whose lives would probably have been better without him.

It reminds me of this Shawn Colvin song, where she's talking about being involved in a bad relationship, and one of her friends says 'Well, you got a song out of it.' Big deal.

To tell the truth, I was involved in some bad situations when I received knowledge, so being a premie probably did help me for about two years (mostly because I extricated myself from the drugs, casual sex, and weird spirituality that I'd been involved with for a few years prior to receiving K). I give credit for this to the premies who I knew - most of who were really nice (I'm talking early 70's here). But after a couple of years the whole trip became confining, and after a few more years, it became unbearable. I was lucky to leave when I did.

I left in early 1977, directly after the 'loosening up' in 1976. I remember going to Guru Puja (?) in Amherst and all the premies being so happy - I mean REALLY happy. When we went through the darshan line, we just bowed to M - he sat way up above us. It was great - no God trip. And then the iron fist came down and everyone got really heavy again. 'Rededication' was the big buzzword - like we had all screwed up for being happy. I just could not handle it. It was a good time to get out.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 23:41:25 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Sliding Doors
Message:
I agree, Katie, it's a ridiculous question. You can't re-run history to see what might have happened. To me, it's just important that I live my OWN life, being self-directed, etc., and in the cult I wasn't. So, all else being equal, it certainly would have been better if I had never been in the cult.

By the way, has anyone seen that movie 'Sliding Doors?' I really liked it and it explores the parallel lives of a woman (Gwynneth Paltrow) that occur if she misses a train in one life and catches the train in the other. It was an interesting idea and fortunately she cut her hair in one of the lives so it was REALLY easy to tell which one you were watching. It was also very funny in some parts. The soundtrack was so good, I went out and bought the CD and I almost never do that.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 23:52:25 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: standing ovation
Message:
for jim, hope you someday get to say this in a courtroom....
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 13:50:34 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I love this question too
Message:
He promised the world and delivered nothing.

This is the key issue, isn't it? I mean, if he really did deliver, then having your life trashed in a cult might actually be worth it, and, in fact, there are a bunch of premies out there who say it IS worth it. The problem is, even deciding what it was that he was supposed to have delivered, let alone whether he delivered it, is SO subjective, that external proof, like in a lawsuit, wouldn't show much of anything. And since the ex-premie would have the burden of proof in making the allegations, I just don't see that it would get anywhere.

Now, a suit about taxes, corrupt business practices, improper financial dealings enriching one individual behind a non-profit religious organization, now that could be interesting.

Also, saying all this stuff in the court of public opinion, and the court of wavering premies, could do a whole lot, in my opinion.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 05:56:40 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: People v. Maharaji
Message:
Yes - I wish someone would sue him. It would make a brilliant trial and he would have to answer and explain. Then everyone could see who he really is out in the open.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 23:36:20 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No Way
Message:
I doubt a lawsuit would last beyond a quick summary judgment or motion to strike. Look, to the world we joined a religion. To the world it was our choice. To the world, no one forced us to do it. Right? Even when I turned over my trust fund, an act I shudder having done, not so much for the money, but because of what it did to my family, I ostensibly did it voluntarily. I wanted to do it. I wanted to do it because I believed BM was god and I believed that I loved him. I mean REALLY loved him. BM never FORCED me to believe in him. It's sad, but true. He took my sincerity and stomped on it, but I don't think that makes him legally liable. The justice system just isn't equipped to handle that stuff.

Now, we all know it was WAY more complicated than that, but I just have a hard time seeing how anyone could even allege that we couldn't have left at any time, and couldn't have decided not to get involved in the first place. Sorry, I unless someone has a reason to sue for some specific swindle, I don't think there would be a prayer.

I think Mr. Ex mentioned once that there HAD been suits against M, but I would be they involve employment-related claims, or very specific donations by people who really were swindled. I have no doubt that happend.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:02:01 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: but if....
Message:
If someone were to sue the intriguing part would be that Rawat would be deposed...by Jim likely. It is a way , the only way i bet,to get answers that are not premisms. Have you read the book by Daniel Petrocelli about the OJ civil trial by any chance? I could really imagine what it would be like....even if it did not win the deposition could be very satisfying to listen to. I am not volunteering...too much of a wus here...like my present day life too much. But if it were to happen would be fascinating.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:08:44 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: but if....
Message:
I haven't read Petrocelli's book, but a good friend of mine is just finishing it and really likes it and he will give it to me to read next.

I agree that a deposition of BM would be great, I just don't think the claim would even get that far, unfortunately. You have to state a cause of action, and you have to claim some kind of damge, and I can't see what that might be. Plus, for most of us the statute of limitations has likely run. Now, someone like Gail and Selena, recent exes, they might not be barred.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:28:01 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Hi JW
Message:
I know so little about how much it takes to get to a certain point in the proccess. But I think Jim could really do a good job. last year when I posted here before once Jim, CD, and I had a internet 'chat'. It was very much like a cross examination of CD. Sadly, without a judge to tell CD to 'just answer the question!' It is so easy to imagine what it would be like if he got the chance. (oh yeah, Jim let me be junior co counsel, it was fun)
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:32:05 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: off topic
Message:
Did you get that link I sent you?
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 23:07:16 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I miss op!
Message:
OP sent me a note on my birthday. She had just come back from Miami. She said she didn't have time to do the forum any more.

Sorry, Jim! All your premies are leaving you...
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 07:55:15 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jim
Subject: ms. op
Message:
I figure that she decided to protect her service seat at the events. As for her telling Katie that time restrictions prevented participating in the forum - with the cutbacks in the number of events that MJ ('The Sculptor') can afford, she should be here pretty regularly from now on.

In fact, there will be a lot more premies reading the forum now that they have less events to spend their time/money on. Thanks, MJ!!
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 06:18:16 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: events to spend money on
Message:
Just out of interest, I got a call inviting me to do service on a program this October. So my guess is M is coming to Oz in October? No idea, actually. It is strange being out of the circuit. However at the beginning of the year it was said he wasn't coming this year at all. Looks like a new plan.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:24:06 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Going back to the Cult
Message:
My dear friend called today. I knew her before K and we received this GIFT together. I think she is quite surprised by my very recent decision. She is concerned about me.

I am also concerned about her and my other friends. I told her that if she could read through all of the material on this web site and GURU PAPERS with an open mind, I would go back if she still felt this was the true path. She is thinking about it.

Is it possible for a rational person to read all this info (not just the Forum banter) and still BELIEVE the BS?

I hope not because I'm in a lot of trouble otherwise.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:35:45 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Going back to the Cult
Message:
Gail:

I don't think this is at all appropriate to offer yourself as a hostage like this. You sound too attached to what your friend does. It is HER life, after all.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:40:50 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Going back to the Cult
Message:
Dear Gail,
I have to STRONGLY agree with Scott here. You are an individual not a sack of grain to be bargined or traded. You have individuality and a personal identity aside from BM or your friends for that matter. You are just you and the rest in your life is yours to manipulate to suit you. DO NOT treat yourself as chattle (I hope that is the right word). Your life is worthy of happines no matter what your fiend does. I don't think you could go back and not be a tourtured soul. Do you?
Be strong girl, you have us for support, don't sell yourself out!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:38:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Nice knowing you, Gail
Message:
Oh well.

Gail, it is completely possible for someone to read all this stuff AND the Guru Papers and still say 'Darshan, darshan, we want darshan!' Especially if they've got some special incentive like you've just given her.

Say hi to Maharaji for me, will ya? :)
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:41:25 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Going back to the Cult
Message:
Gail,
I think you might be in trouble. It is possible for an otherwise rational person to read the site and still believe maharaji's BS. It isn't so much that premies are not rational in every way, just that they're irrational when it comes to specific beliefs and delusions... those related to maharaji. Look, just tell you're friend, 'I lied'.
Rick
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 04:15:09 (EST)
From: twister
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Going back to the Cult
Message:
Gail,

Just a thought. Tell your friend you were accidently IN YOUR MIND, and that your HEART would NEVER allow you to go back. Hows that for a twist?
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:41:54 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Going back to the Cult
Message:
Gail,

I know how disconcerting it can be when people who are your friends think you have strayed from the one true path. But my experience was that if the friendship was based on more than shared belief, if we really cared about each other as people, that faded away and the friendship lasted, albeit on new terms. I also found that my own steadfast decision to be free from the 'BS' is very much noticed by these people and is not unattractive to them.
Is it possible for a rational person to read all this info (not just the Forum banter) and still BELIEVE the BS?

I am afraid so, at least in my experience. At least for awhile it is. So many defense mechanisms can be set up to avoid even seeing the countering information. On the other hand, I think it's hard for premies to overlook YOU and that they know YOU. It changes the dynamics so much. It's very powerful to see one of your friends leave the cult and feel better for it. I think that leaves a lasting impression, even if it doesn't result in further defections for some time. In my experience, every single one of my friends left the cult within a year or so after I did. Some of these people started 'secretly' talking to me and sharing their doubts and I tried to make it as comfortable for them as possible to do that. My phone bill was very large during this period.

The main thing I tried to do was what Bob Mishler suggested. That it's important to tell premies that what they are experiencing is not false, it may well be real and that they are sincere. The only problem is that the positive experience they are having is NOT coming from Maharaji. That's all. And by leaving, that's what you learn.

Good luck, Gail. I have a lot of admiration for the courage you've shown over the past weeks.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:49:02 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Going back to the Cult
Message:
I'm confused Gail. I am not understanding the responses to your
thread. Am I missing something? People seem to be inrerpretng that you are 'going back' to M but I didn't get this from what you posted.
RE: your asking, 'can a person read Guru Papers and the forum and still believe in BM?'
Absolutely! Human beings are dynamic creatures and capble of a change of heart at any given time. Further influence can come form past history and programming. A lot depends on how theperson evolved, how many skills they learned to enable independent thinking, etc. Not to mention the ole self-esteem thing, which I look at more as self identity.
Friends can be a powerful force. Someone with poor family ties, like me, can put a huge value on friends. This can be unhealthy at times if they are influencing you in a destructive way.
Whehter M is destructive or not is something only you can determine.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:22:23 (EST)
From: PaulR
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Going back to the Cult
Message:
Dear Gail,

Your predicament is one which I find myself in from time to time.

Your feelings expressed here are a symptom of your success as a human being.

It arises out of the fact that you are having real (person to person) relationships with your friends, rather than am incidental shared relationship with them through your relationship with GM.

Please do not worry about judging the value of your experiences with GM or with K.

Consider instead the value of your entire life, or experience, in relationship with the entire universe. I personally place an emphasis on the planet earth and especially with the human beings which I come into contact with. This may not be YOUR path.

I consider that my value as a human being to be considerably more useful (to the universal soul, or whatever), as a non premie, than it was when I was a premie.

Of course I have to TRY to engage myself in useful, nurturing, lifesharing and healing activities, and I solicit your (or anyone's) help in keeping this up. (I am not a great success in this myself.)

The great crime of premiedom, is in that it diverts the spiritual yearnings of people into a void of uselessness. It even promotes the uselessness as major virtue.

It appears to me that your spirit is yearning to leap into greater usefulness. ONE - TWO - THREE Leeeeeeeeeap. Good Luck. pr

I'd like to share more, but this is too long for a post already.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:30:09 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: PaulR
Subject: Going back to the Cult
Message:
Paul,

Consider instead the value of your entire life, or experience, in relationship with the entire universe. I personally place an emphasis on the planet earth and especially with the human beings which I come into contact with

What do you mean by this, Paul? Does this mean you work to help protect the environment, or do you mean something else? I just wondered, I think it's very interesting and helpful to see what ex-premies have done to re-direct the energy that used to get swallowed up in the cult.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:41:05 (EST)
From: PaulR
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Grow up
Message:
I'll try to explain this to you when you are more mature.

In the meantime please consider a more valuable use for the bandwidth made available to us here without charge.

good wishes pr.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:06:43 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: PaulR
Subject: Grow up
Message:
I'll try to explain this to you when you are more mature.

Well, Paul, sorry I asked. I'll be sure not to do that in the future. Sorry to have taken your valuable time. As for any future explanations, please don't bother.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:12:08 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Grow up
Message:
Hi JW
It is with reluctance that I post this since my last
attempt at butting in was so abysmal. But it seems that
this whole thread is full of miscommunications. Just my
observation, but I can't see any reason for PaulR to have
reacted to you that way, it looked to me like you were just
asking a question. But then, I didn't see why all of the other responses to Gail were about her 'going back' either.
Maybe I need smart pills. Maybe we are under psychic attack.
But don't worry your resident white witch is very strong.

....Selena, out of it already and it's only Tuesday....
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:20:51 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Thanks, Selena
Message:
Thanks, Selena, that might well be true. Makes me feel better to chock it up to miscommunication. Seems like Gail is doing fine in being her own person, though.

It's been one of those days for me. A guy I work with has just been diagnosed with a MS-type disease that is making it so he can hardly see. He's about 32, has two kids, just bought a new house and is an attorney, a profession he is unlikely to continue if he can't see. The doctors, including the world's most renowned expert in nerve diseases, can't say if he will get better or worse. They just don't know. Man, that's tough. I can just see when talking to him how scared he is. I guess it would be at this time that if he was a premie he would 'pray' and believe that BM would come to his aid. Fat chance. He says he feels gratified that everyone is being so supportive. I'm just glad no one is telling him to 'go inside' and rise above his problems.

On a brighter note, the sun finally came out in San Francisco. Maybe we will have summer after all!
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:30:50 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Thanks, Selena
Message:
The MS thing is scary. Out of a building of 150 employees 3 that I work fairly closely with have MS. They are ok most of the time but it comes and goes and one of the people changed before my eyes
from someone who did aerobic exercise every day and biked all over
into this old man at 43. It's awful. Weren't you the one that started that 'Safe' thread a while ago? It almost seems like
the environmental diseases and MS are realated somehow.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 18:53:18 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Thanks, Selena
Message:
Dear JW,
So sorry to hear about your work mate. I think you may have mentioned him here before in reference to something else. I wonder why he couldn't continue being a lawyer.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 05:36:18 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: JW & PaulR
Subject: PaulR & JW
Message:
Hey Guys,

I think Selena's right. Sometimes we can forget that people here have things in their lives which strongly influence their posts and that it's worse on some days than others. Without body language and tone of voice to inform our reading it can be hard to get the whole message sometimes.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend JW, that's a real blow. My wife is chronically ill and it's hard to watch someone disintegrate before your eyes, so hard. Do what you can but don't worry too much about what you can't. If you care about your friend, and it sounds like you do, try to pace yourself for the long haul.

I don't think PaulR really meant anything by that post, just your bad luck to ask that particular question. Right PaulR?

Regards

Richard
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:28:48 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Selena+JW
Subject: Grow up
Message:
I think I need smart pills as well because I also thought JW asked a sincere and reasonable question and it was the response he got that completely confused me.Especially since that poster had just proclaimed what an importance he puts on his interactions with humans and then the first interaction we saw after that was his rather odd response to JW.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 18:46:15 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Selena
Subject: Grow up
Message:
Dear Selena,
Me too! Out of it already and it's only Tues. I mean. I thought something was wrong with my computer because there were no posts from Wed. and then I realized it is only Tues! I can't wait until 8/14!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 18:51:15 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Grow up
Message:
Hi Robyn
I still have a ton of work and I am only concerned with casting our epoch tale of the non-lord.
What's happening on the 14 of Aug?
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 18:55:34 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Selena
Subject: Grow up
Message:
Dear Selena,
I'm down one job!!!!! On the down side I am just left with a part time job but it will be a THRILL for a couple of weeks, then out job hunting again.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 19:31:35 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Grow up
Message:
I usually try to only do this with song lyrics but if I may be so brutish please allow me to interject unasked once again and second guess this exchange.

I have reread the posts and I believe it possible that Paul thought JW was being sarcastic and instead of earnestly enquiring what humanitarian/environmental work he had done post-premiedom,he may have thought that JW was 'calling him on it' so to speak.

make sense?

Pompously and presumptiously yours,
I remain,
bftb
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 19:39:46 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Grow up
Message:
I actually thought about that, as it's possible to think just about anything is sarcasm, but it would be PRETTY BAD sarcasm if that's what PaulR thinks. I'm also very interested in environmental causes, so that's why I asked, and I like the idea that ex-premies actually care about the world, since I for one, didn't put any energy into that while in the cult. So, I got into quite a few things afterwards, hopefully I've kind of focused more recently.

Frankly, PaulR must be awfully sensitive about this if he interprets a simple question as some kind of criticism. I may have touched some sort of nerve without knowing it. Maybe PaulR will be so good as to enlighten us.

Still a poster without a clue,

JW
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 18:50:54 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: PaulR
Subject: PaulR
Message:
Dear PaulR,
I am so totally baffled by this response to JW. He is intelligent and you won't find a more gentle, sincere, thoughtful, mature man on this forum. That is for sure. I read his posted question to you and found it sincere and kindly written. I know a tiny bit about you and your response here shocks me. What's wrong?
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 06:26:21 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: PaulR
Subject: Going back to the Cult
Message:
Thankyou so much for your post above. I am feeling very shell-shocked at the moment. You are answering some questions I have about what my life is going to be like from now on without Maharaji/knowledge. I feel like I'm forcing myself to grow at the moment even though I want to go back into my shell.
I experienced some real anger recently & I feel like a hypocrite because of arguing about how bad it is on the Forum. I feel like trapped and at the same time wanting to come out in the open and express my real self. I feel so weird about my life right now.
told some premies close to me that I am not practicing today
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:34:01 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: All
Subject: RELAX
Message:
Relax. I'm not going anywhere near MJ. Can you really picture me swinging the arti tray now. I can't and won't.

I have a strong faith in people's ability to see the truth--even if it takes a long time. I would have left after 1979 if I'd had even one shred of evidence (The Guru Papers or someone from the inner circle) other than myself.

That is what I lacked--self-confidence. I have been arguing about the insanity of it all for years, but all I got was blank stares from the premies. The only rational person I knew regarding MJ was my mother.

Even a week before she died, she screamed for me to stop going into my room to watch videos. She hated that voice so much. She also wanted some company before she died.

Luckily for me, I decided to stay home the night she died. (I was going to go to a video.) I got to tell her I loved her and watch the whole process (death rattle, rigor mortus). It sounds morbid but it wasn't. It was a lot more enlightening than going to hear MJ talk about death. As he says, 'There's nothing like the practical experience.'
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:11:13 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Gail
Subject: RELAX
Message:
It is more honest to tell your friend now that you won't return.
Otherwise, if she reads that stuff and then you refuse to rejoin
she will see what you have done as manipulative and perhaps
further prejudice her from changing her mind.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:30:47 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: RELAX
Message:
It is more honest to tell your friend now that you won't return.
Otherwise, if she reads that stuff and then you refuse to rejoin
she will see what you have done as manipulative and perhaps
further prejudice her from changing her mind.


Yes, that's right, Stephen. Gail, I think you should tell your friend that the book and materials have had a crucial impact on you and that, if she really considers herself either your friend or interested in the truth, she owes it to herself to see waht it is you're talking about.

You might also tell her that you made your initial offer a little disingenuously. You had no intention of ever returning to the cult but just wanted some way of getting her to learn what you have. Indeed, you may ask her, what was she thinking? That you could just 'go back' regardless of your thoughts? Of course not. She wants to turn the clock back for you but that could only happen if, knowing what you now know, you could once again jettison the mind and all the reasons you're aware of for NOT accepting the little fat Indian guy as your Lord and Saviour as if it was all just a little mud that hit your windshield one day.
But how could she ask you to reject your own thoughts wholesale like that without knowing what they are? And how can she do that without reading the material?
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 17:25:36 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: Stephen
Message:
Dear Stephen,
I just want you to know I haven't forgotten you. I will start a thread tonight or tomorrow. Gotta get to work now.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:25:19 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Gail has fine qualities
Message:
Thank goodness you were only pulling our legs. You have a wry sense of humor, Gail!

As to your question about people being faced with truth and disregarding it...how long has CD been posting here? Mili? op? The list goes on and on. Each person has to come into their own understanding in their own time, I guess.

I DO think you are an excellent friend for wanting to share what you know. If your friends don't appreciate this fine quality in you, I'm sure others will.

VP
Glad my time is now
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 17:23:09 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Going back to the Cult
Message:
Sure, just read the posts from red heart.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 21:19:18 (EST)
From: Lg
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: back to the Cult - too bad!
Message:
Gail

It's hard I guess to stand on our own two feet and not let ourselves influence by our friends!

I left m in 87 and believe me each and every one creates
our own joys and sorrows in life. Not m or knowledge, or our friends makes it for us.
(Sorry my english is not too good. I'm french canadian)
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 23:56:04 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: Lg
Subject: back to the Cult - too bad!
Message:
No! I am not going back to the cult. I was joking. Do you know Claude Bourgeois? He was our community leader until about 1990 when he went to work for the DECCA project. I never saw him again. He was an engineer.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 00:50:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Hey I remember Claude
Message:
a little. Just a little. Nice guy, typical nice guy, low level DLM bureaucrat kind of guy.

Remember Guy? Nancy Robertson?
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:57:11 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, I remember ...
Message:
Guy Bourbone? That should have read 1980 by the way. How about Janie Upham, Phyllis Brown (Kautzer), Alex Pearlman, Emily ?, Peter Lenin, John Begg, Fran Hartling, Michael Devine, Lyne Byrdie (Devine) and the list goes on.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:04:03 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Alex started his own cult!
Message:
Gail,

In the late 80s I ran into Alex in southern California. I also heard some stuff. Apparently, he'd taken his 'watch-me-smile-forever' show on the road, renting some resort space in the Bahamas and taking people there on some silly new-age 'happiness' program. Do you know anything about that? I thought it was absolutely dumb. In truth, I could never tolerate Alex's blatantly fake sweetness. Alex, if you're reading this, you really did come across as a perfect cult member.

Guy was a character and an interesting singer. For a second I confused him with that asshole from Montreal, Mario whatever-his-name-was. But, no, Guy was a big-hearted, energetic drooling premie. Hope life's come together for him somehow.

Phyllis was a really nice girl. I hope her life's come together and that she didn't give ALL her breeding years to the ashram.

Fran, where are you these days? I remember you well and hope things are working out for you too. And where IS Emily now anyway? Are we talking Emily from Toronto? I saw her a few times after I moved to L.A. She was going to art school. Emily was always so smart. I wonder what she's up to and thinking now.

Janie, I remember a bit. The Devines? Not by name. Same with John Begg. Peter, we've already talked about.

But really, did you ever hear about Perlman's new-age tour business? And didn't he look more like Alfred E. Neuman ('Mad Magazine') than anyone you've ever come accross?
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:47:59 (EST)
From: Lg
Email: lucille.gravel@nlc-bnc.ca
To: Gail
Subject: back to the Cult - too bad!
Message:
Gail

At that time (1990) I had already left EV and M. I don't know that guy.

Glad you were joking about going back to the cult!
For myself it wasn't too hard when I left m, except a feeling of insecurity for a little while, like having to drop your crutches to learn walking alone again.

I was reading the white book of Ramtha which discourage guru feet kissing in order to become sovereign. This is were I got my encouragement and support.

I'm in Ottawa, you are in London, Ont. very close!
Lg
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