Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 15

From: Jun 28, 1998

To: Jul 6, 1998

Page: 1 Of: 5



tony -:- hi. -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 16:01:24 (EST)
__Gerry -:- hi. -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 16:11:54 (EST)
____tony -:- hi. -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 04:25:55 (EST)
______Robyn -:- hi. -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 09:48:11 (EST)
________tony -:- Meditation -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 14:22:27 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Meditation -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 13:29:03 (EST)
____________tony -:- god -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 16:43:33 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- god -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:29:24 (EST)
________________Katie -:- Searching -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 20:43:51 (EST)
__________________Robyn -:- Searching -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 07:56:56 (EST)
________________Judex -:- god -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 05:37:30 (EST)
______Joy -:- Enjoyment -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 12:58:47 (EST)
________tony -:- Pain -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 14:32:11 (EST)
________VP -:- Enjoy! Enjoy! Joy! -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 22:40:18 (EST)
________Rick -:- Enjoyment -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:48:52 (EST)
______Gerry -:- hi. -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 15:02:44 (EST)
________tony -:- short timing -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 03:03:06 (EST)
__________Gerry -:- short timing -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 13:07:58 (EST)
____________tony -:- unusual fellow -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 16:50:48 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Tony, off topic -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 13:37:39 (EST)
____________tony -:- middle child? -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 16:53:01 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- middle child? -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:31:34 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- seeing stars -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 11:00:40 (EST)
________tony -:- seeing stars -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:01:56 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- seeing stars -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:29:40 (EST)
____________tony -:- finding god -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:31:25 (EST)
__________Judex -:- seeing stars -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 05:48:01 (EST)
____________tony -:- seeing god -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:37:25 (EST)
________Carol -:- seeing stars -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 03:23:37 (EST)
__________tony -:- Choices -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:43:23 (EST)
__Brian -:- hi. -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 16:55:18 (EST)
____Robyn -:- hi. -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 18:58:58 (EST)
______tony -:- missing you. -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 04:34:42 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- 'missing you' What's that? -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 11:12:58 (EST)
__________tony -:- 'missing you' What's that? -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:05:22 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- 'missing you' What's that? -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:10:12 (EST)
______________tony -:- 'missing you' What's that? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:44:41 (EST)
____tony -:- the little boy who was lord -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 04:32:04 (EST)
______Brian -:- enjoyment -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 10:17:46 (EST)
________Gail -:- enjoyment -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 10:35:54 (EST)
__________tony -:- how soon? -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 14:43:51 (EST)
____________Gail -:- how soon? -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 16:29:43 (EST)
________tony -:- poverty -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 14:42:17 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Rajneesh and Maharaji -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 15:44:13 (EST)
____________tony -:- madgurus -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 03:11:02 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- Sai Baba -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 11:26:39 (EST)
________________tony -:- Sai Baba -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:07:30 (EST)
__________________Scott T. -:- Sai Baba -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 19:19:40 (EST)
____________________tony -:- Facts -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:47:45 (EST)
____________________bftb -:- Sai Baba -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:04:21 (EST)
__________________Stephen Harris -:- Sai Baba -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 23:33:36 (EST)
__________Selena -:- poverty -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 17:57:19 (EST)
____________tony -:- selena touche' -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 03:26:03 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- poverty not a 'bad thing?' -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 11:36:28 (EST)
________________JW -:- poverty not a 'bad thing?' -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:28:47 (EST)
__________________Scott T. -:- poverty not a 'bad thing?' -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 15:33:27 (EST)
____________________Gerry -:- Demi-grant -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:21:01 (EST)
______________________Robyn -:- Demi-grant -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:45:26 (EST)
____________________JW -:- poverty not a 'bad thing?' -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 22:42:45 (EST)
________________tony -:- poverty not a 'bad thing?' -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:16:45 (EST)
__________________Scott T. -:- poverty not a 'bad thing?' -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 19:37:11 (EST)
____________________tony -:- Colonialism -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:58:03 (EST)
____________________JW -:- poverty not a 'bad thing?' -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:45:56 (EST)
__________________JW -:- poverty not a 'bad thing?' -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 22:51:18 (EST)
____________________tony -:- bankslavery -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:05:20 (EST)
______________Selena -:- selena touche' -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:32:34 (EST)
________________tony -:- its not personal -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:15:09 (EST)
__________________Selena -:- its not personal -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:32:25 (EST)
________Judex -:- the high price of enjoyment -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 18:45:21 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- enjoyment -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 11:21:39 (EST)
__________Brian -:- EV lawyers -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:00:27 (EST)
____________Judex -:- EV lawyers -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:13:50 (EST)
__TD -:- hi. -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 21:21:24 (EST)
____tony -:- hi. -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 04:12:42 (EST)
______CD -:- hi. -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 21:59:10 (EST)
________tony -:- lawyers coming -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 03:32:18 (EST)
__________Gail -:- LINE-UPS FOR KNOWLEDGE -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 11:26:06 (EST)
____________tony -:- LINE-UPS FOR KNOWLEDGE -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:21:42 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- LINE-UPS FOR KNOWLEDGE -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 19:46:56 (EST)
________________tony -:- LINE-UPS FOR KNOWLEDGE -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:17:04 (EST)
______________JW -:- LINE-UPS FOR KNOWLEDGE -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:10:59 (EST)
________________tony -:- LINE-UPS FOR KNOWLEDGE -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:19:02 (EST)
__________Judex -:- lawyers coming -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:18:58 (EST)
____________tony -:- money -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:22:00 (EST)
__g's mom -:- hi to you -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:26:59 (EST)
____tony -:- Anger -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 04:20:01 (EST)
______Judex -:- Anger -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 04:45:32 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Anger -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 09:50:59 (EST)
________tony -:- love -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 14:51:48 (EST)
__________Jim -:- new age bunk -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 15:47:26 (EST)
____________Gail -:- Your Horrorscope -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 16:33:58 (EST)
____________tony -:- ecowarriors -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 03:42:05 (EST)
____________VP -:- first born Scorpio bunk -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 22:58:16 (EST)
______________Judex -:- first born Scorpio bunk -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:23:52 (EST)
______________Katie -:- first born Scorpio bunk -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:40:35 (EST)
______________tony -:- first born Scorpio bunk -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:23:17 (EST)
__________Judex -:- love -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 00:11:23 (EST)
____________Katie -:- In Flanders fields -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 02:20:59 (EST)
______________tony -:- In Flanders fields -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 04:08:20 (EST)
____________tony -:- Death in the Fields of War. -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 04:05:51 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Says who? -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:00:22 (EST)
________________tony -:- Says who? -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:23:37 (EST)
__________________Scott T. -:- interesting stories -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 19:48:59 (EST)
____________________Gail -:- interesting stories -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:33:15 (EST)
______________________tony -:- OUCH -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:27:33 (EST)
____________________tony -:- B-52 ON THE MOON? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:26:26 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- Death in the Fields of War. -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 14:02:25 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- love -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 13:55:56 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- Lovers of India -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 06:38:38 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- I goofed/Lovers of India -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 06:40:04 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- Direct Link to Indian heavens -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 11:58:38 (EST)
____Jim -:- Thank you, oh shepherd -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 14:23:20 (EST)
______Judex -:- one from the sheep -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 19:07:41 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- one from the sheep -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 21:12:27 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- Cutting the fog machine -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 03:32:59 (EST)
________Gail -:- Cutting the fog machine -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 11:13:17 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- Childish -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 16:53:20 (EST)
____________Judex -:- Childish -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:00:04 (EST)
____Richard -:- Direct Link to reality... -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 05:32:56 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- Direct Link to reality... -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:50:37 (EST)

TD -:- A premie hypothetical -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 06:12:50 (EST)
__Richard -:- A premie hypothetical -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 07:03:35 (EST)
____TD -:- A premie hypothetical -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:08:17 (EST)
______Judex -:- A premie hypothetical -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:17:04 (EST)
______Richard -:- Perfect Master..... -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:33:44 (EST)
________Judex -:- Perfect Master..... -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:42:47 (EST)
__________TD -:- Perfect Master..... -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 09:20:24 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- Mastering Spinoza -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 21:20:03 (EST)
________TD -:- Perfect Master..... -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 09:16:21 (EST)
____Katie -:- A premie hypothetical -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 10:09:04 (EST)
__Brian -:- A premie hypothetical -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 07:52:25 (EST)
____TD -:- A premie hypothetical -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:56:57 (EST)
______Brian -:- A premie hypothetical -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 17:24:57 (EST)
________Joy -:- A premie hypothetical -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 17:51:48 (EST)
__________Judex -:- A premie hypothetical -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 19:45:25 (EST)
__________x -:- A premie hypothetical -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 19:48:12 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- The Asan Hordes -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 21:44:51 (EST)
________TD -:- The Asan Hordes -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 22:18:58 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- The Asian Hordes -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:57:16 (EST)

Another -:- Spleen Splash -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 02:39:45 (EST)
__Jim -:- Well ah died -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 02:55:13 (EST)
____John Hammond-Smyth -:- Well ah died -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:32:17 (EST)
__Katie -:- to Another: a correction -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 10:21:41 (EST)
____x -:- to: another fool -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 17:30:03 (EST)
____VP -:- People who need leaders -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:35:01 (EST)
______G's mom -:- so true -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:41:25 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Spleen Splash -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 11:32:41 (EST)

g's mom -:- cult link -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 01:46:43 (EST)
__gs mom -:- cult links more -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 02:30:19 (EST)
____judex -:- cult links more -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 07:51:42 (EST)
______g's mom -:- thanks Judex -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:43:55 (EST)
__CD -:- cult link notions -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 23:08:02 (EST)

Jim -:- More quotes for Passing Thru -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:40:22 (EST)
__Passing thru -:- Last quotes for the day -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 20:29:01 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Last quotes for the day -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 21:01:55 (EST)
____Jim -:- Wrong, PT -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 21:24:15 (EST)
______Jethro -:- Wrong, PT -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 02:06:21 (EST)
______Passing thru -:- Quote -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 09:05:55 (EST)
________Joy -:- Quote -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 12:38:33 (EST)
__________Gail -:- Quote -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 19:53:30 (EST)
________Jim -:- Sorry, PT, you lose -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 13:28:15 (EST)
__________Passing thru -:- Jim's last chance -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 18:04:48 (EST)
____________Gerry -:- tech note for PT -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 18:48:24 (EST)
______________Gerry -:- PS to PT -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 18:51:51 (EST)
________________Judex -:- dumb cluck! -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 05:05:52 (EST)
__________________Gerry -:- dumb cluck! -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 15:33:41 (EST)
____________________Judex -:- dumb cluck! -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 22:16:47 (EST)
____________S.F. -:- LOOK PT, M WROTE THIS!!!! -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 19:57:07 (EST)
____________Jim -:- PT, that's L-O-S-E. Get it? -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 21:37:27 (EST)
____________Jethro -:- Jim's last chance -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 02:28:45 (EST)
______________Judex -:- Jim's last chance -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 05:09:07 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Oh no, I'm confused!! -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 13:38:03 (EST)
________________jethro -:- Oh no, I'm confused!! -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 02:13:03 (EST)
____Gail -:- Is MJ for real? -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 21:53:39 (EST)
______Passing thru -:- Real for some -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 09:32:45 (EST)
________JW -:- Missed Some -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 18:15:27 (EST)
__________Judex -:- Missed Some -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 05:15:06 (EST)
____Jethro -:- Last quotes for the day -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 02:02:54 (EST)
______Passing thru -:- Arti for Jethro -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 09:37:33 (EST)
________VP -:- Hymns, Mickey? -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 23:18:42 (EST)
__psuedo prem -:- so very sad Jim..... -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 20:38:35 (EST)
__Gail -:- Jim's e-mail address -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 22:20:13 (EST)
____Jim -:- Jim's e-mail address -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 22:37:00 (EST)


Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 16:01:24 (EST)
From: tony
Email: tony@prof.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: hi.
Message:
well i better say that i am a practising premie. there i've said it. my experience of satguru maharaji (note the satguru bit) makes very interesting reading. anyway i actually stumbled on this site by mistake so maybe i was meant to find my way here. i can understand why so many people are now bitter about elan vital which i am not a member of although i have attended some events. prenpal rawat seems to have become wealthy and it would seem that this is not something many of his followers and ex-followers like. there is nothing i can say about this except to ask you all i think an important question. why are you really angry, is it the wealth, if you are old premies do you miss the small boy you followed with love. whatever it is, i'd like to say hi to you all. by the way i don't know any of you and none of you know me.
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 16:11:54 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: hi.
Message:
Hi Tony,

Glad you stopped by. Man, have you opened a can of worms! I'm sure this is going to be a long thread, so I'd just like to say welcome, glad to have your two cents and that not everybody is pissed off at rawat. I am still somewhat, but it's not something I think about everyday. (Well it didn't used to be until I started reading this forum everyday.)

What angers me the most about BM is that he is still sucking new people into his cult. I got out pretty cheaply relative to others' experiences and still, I would like to see him fall on his fat ass for all the pain he has caused in the world.

That's all for now. Talk to you later. You seem pretty rational for a premie (at this point, that is.)
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 04:25:55 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: hi.
Message:
I'm suprised you feel its a cult, i don't., but this could be because i never bought into the whole ashram thing and then trying to be one of the ones who was closest to Maharaji, therefore i never got any disappointments. I just practised knowlegde and you know what i love the techniques, and the experiences, i find, maybe this was the best way to go. As for my rationality, i'm an engineer so that probably accounts for it, ha, i've got a sense of humour as well. Anyway a question to you my dear man, Did You Ever Enjoy Practising Knowledge?
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 09:48:11 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: tony
Subject: hi.
Message:
Dear Tony,
I meant to post a hello to you the other day but spaced it out after I posted to Brian on his little line there. I know he has had some intense experiences but I'll let him tell you if he has time.
I have had wonderful expereinces with meditation and continue to have them and know/see they have nothing to do with M, NOTHING!
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 14:22:27 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Meditation
Message:
Hi Robyn,
You sound like a very nice person. So you still meditate, thats good, and it still feels good, wow. Anyway i don't know why you left Maharaji nor am i here to defend him from anyone, i'm sure he can defend himself, but i admit that i like talking to you guys. One thing i remember is that for you to advance spiritualy towards enlightenment, which i hope is what you really desire, you need the guidance of a master, do you have one or was the Maharaji experience enough for you and your content with what you have now.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 13:29:03 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: tony
Subject: Meditation
Message:
Dear Tony,
A master, hmmm... My kids, my dogs, my jobs, no...myself, closer. No, I don't believe I need a body to follow. I reject the idea of god as a body. I think of god as energy or more clearly as a life force. I try to live my life in tune with that force. I fail much of the time but over all, as I look back on my life I see that this mode of living, for me, has brought me the farthest. I am not in a contest with others as to my spiritual position and I am not trying to 'please or fufill' my master's ideas or goals for me. I get side tracked but that is all part of the journey of life and sometimes/often the side tracks are important too. I just try to learn as much as I can about myself for understanding and try to give it all up to connect to what is beneath the surface for me in this life and that is what seems to move me forward/cause real change in myself, the most.
Hope this helps explain me better, Toni,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 16:43:33 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: god
Message:
Hi Robyn.
That's a very nice way of putting it.
Actually its very similar to my beliefs and it explains you very well me as well, but i will question one thing, you seem to no longer be treading that journey instead it seems you have stopped (looking).
What is your goal in this life?

A QUOTE,

An enlightened man/woman at the stroke of death thinks of only one thing, GOD
Everyone else at the stroke of death think of evrything else but GOD.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:29:24 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: tony
Subject: god
Message:
Dear Tony,
I feel like I've stopped looking right now, if I understand your meaning but I believe that is because I work 2 jobs right now, have a teenage daughter at home and getting to little attention from me and having to much responsibility for home while her mom is working all the time. This all started in January of this year and will end 8/14, when my day job ends. I found the forum shortly after starting job 2 and for a long time it helped me to keep some consentration on myself, my growth, spiritual and personal which are very close for me really. It seems that as I get closer to the end of this marathon that I am lossing even that. I don't seem to have as much time on the forum and just touch in here and there. I find when I keep up I feel more engaged and understand what is going on here more and so benifit more from people's thoughts and feelings because they make me think.
If you think I have given up searching in general, I hope not. I am very open to the possibilities of anything and when something hit a nerve in me I look into it further, thus becoming a clongomerate of pieces of this or that idea(l), keeping what resonates for me and disgarding the rest.
My goal in this life, simply put, is to become the best human being I can, working through things to change them and in that pursuit, to find my spiritual place or path and follow it. I know this may sound vauge but I am one who tends to try to over plan and have found that it never works anyway and this is a big deal to me, who I am and what connection I feel to the bigger picture and I don't want to blow it because I haven't reached stage 3 by sundown, you know.
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 20:43:51 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Searching
Message:
Dear Robyn - I just wanted to say that I do feel that you are still searching. Maybe I should say 'seeking to understand life' instead of 'searching'. I definitely see you as a person who is always trying to understand yourself, other people, and your place in the universe. You're very open to new ideas, and to talking to other people about them.

Only a little more than a month till 8/14!
Love,
Katie
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 07:56:56 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Searching
Message:
Dear Katie,
Thank you so much. I think that is true about me though and it is similar to what Rick did with his premie friend. It is sometimes hard but so rewarding to look back and see the progress you've made.
Thanks to for the cheer for 8/14. I just hate to rush the summer away.
Love you,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 05:37:30 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: god
Message:
thanks for your post. I really liked what you said about not having to reach stage 3 by sundown as well!
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 12:58:47 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: Enjoyment
Message:
I find this command and expectation to constantly enjoy everything somewhat confronting and insulting. It presumes the person being spoken to does not have the same wonderful experience as the person telling them to enjoy. Why isn't Brian's more disciplined experience of Knowledge equally as valid as those who enjoy it? I resent being told what experience to be having at any given point, and with regard to any particular situation. It's controlling, condescending and overly simplistic to assume that enjoyment is a superior experience to whatever anyone else may be feeling at the time.

To Maharaji and all his premies: 'Quit tell us to constantly enjoy things! People can have whatever experience they are having, and that is OKAY.'

Where would the world of great art and literature and music be if all the authors and artists went around constantly enjoying everything, with a silly, blissed-out grin on their face, and never experiencing the pain and suffering of life? Would there have been a Tolstoy? A Shakespeare? Janis Joplin? There are other experiences in life besides enjoy. To paper over the pain and grittiness of life with a superficial blissful attitude is missing the point altogether.
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 14:32:11 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Pain
Message:
Hi Joy,
well what can i say, i know one thing, that i that from extreme experiences of pain can also come enjoyment, just like from hate one can love and vise versa. You know i have had periods of intense pain in my life and for me they were learning experiences, and when i look back on them i realise just how those experiences has changes my life and myself for the better. I would also say i'm a very creative person, i'm writing some books at the moment as well as screenplays which are already written. Although i'm actually an engineer and i can tell you that no matter what pain you have inside when you create something i'e Shakespeare Romeo and Juliete, Tolstoy, war and piece etc, the shear joy you get can be overwhelming. I've found that i can get that anytime i meditate, not on anyone but on myself, sounds deep eh!
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 22:40:18 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Enjoy! Enjoy! Joy!
Message:
What a good point, Joy.

Life is full of many various emotions. Being happy all of the time is phoney and false and just a little bit like eating ice cream for every meal, every day. It would be pleasant, but after a while, not too interesting. And it would alter your physical presence, like being a fakey happy can alter your emotional presence.

I like to try to be positive and see the glass half full. I am really working to make this a priority in my life. But I still learn and grow from disappointments, sad times, anger, surprise and other emotions. I try not to let these things drown me, but I see a bad time for what it is...something that is part of life. An experience to go through. A lot of times I end up learning something really valuable about myself or about human nature during these times as well. But enjoy these times? NO.

When I have gone through some really intense emotional periods, I have made my best art. When I am in a really positive period, I have NO desire to create artistically as an emotional outlet. I think--I would paint bunnies and cotton candy today, so NAAAAHHHH!!! When I am happy, I would rather be out doing something. Going somewhere or seeing something rather than being in the studio.

It is okay to feel what you feel. Enjoy what you can of your life and feel the other things that come, too. But to enjoy all of the time? I hope premies aren't beating themselves up for very normal negative human emotions because they have been told they must be happy all of the time. This is an impossible goal.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:48:52 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Enjoyment
Message:
Joy,
My sentiments exactly.
Rick
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 15:02:44 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: hi.
Message:
Hi tony,

My dad was an engineer and so is my brother (both civil engineers--highways and stuff to the uninitiated). I worked on a survey crew for a few years and really liked it. Being outdoors all the time and all...

Did You Ever Enjoy Practising Knowledge?

If you mean the techniques, I would have to say 'no'. Meditation was a bore to me. Nothing happened. Well, actually one time I was meditation in the Philadelphia ashram when it felt like 'I' was no longer breathing, but was being breathed. Like there was this spring or pump occuring on its own without any volition on my part.

Meditation was, for this one instance, enjoyable and I lost track of time. When I came out of this trance and looked around, everyone else was gone and someone was vacuuming the carpet so it was time to go. It wasn't THAT big of a deal like I would want to spend years to regain the experience, and this was the only time ANYTHING even remotely like that happened. Of course I blamed myself for this 'problem'

As far as the blatant bhakti aspect, zippo there, too, bub. Darshan was disappointing and I didn't get the group bliss thing at all. Most I just ended up being the one to drive everyone home through the middle of the night after a program. I remember one instance driving from NYC to Phila and arriving in the middle ofthe night to crash on the satsang hall floor.

There was literally ' no room in the inn' so I slept under the piano. I never heard such rude bitching and pissing and moaning when we came in, from my premie ''brothers and sisters'' already there. I was exhausted from driving while everyone else in the car slept, and just wanted to crawl in corner and sleep, but first had to submit to this abuse. It was the next day I had my one and only meditation ''experience.''

Needless to say, I was, thank god, a ''short timer.''
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 03:03:06 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: short timing
Message:
Hi Gerry.
That was such a good story, i really liked it. I know of so many who in those days would fall over themselves to do service and still do.
I am a short timer myself, meaning i received knowledge and went home to practise and enjoy it which really do. You may not realise how wonderful an experience you had but hey everyone has their own way.
You know the bitching and constant high handedness of the premies that were close to M was one of the things i liked most. I became not a wonderful spiritual experience but very similar to a company hierachy which if that's what i wanted i would go and work for one.
I have to say i've had wonderful darshan experiences as well as meditation but you know i think its part of my personality to keep out of everyones way and not get involved which is why i believe i was able to enjoy being a premie.
Did you recieve K from M or a I?
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 13:07:58 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: short timing
Message:
You know the bitching and constant high handedness of the premies that were close to M was one of the things i liked most

Tony,

I can only assume you meant disliked in the above sentence? Otherwise you are an unusual fellow.

You may not realise how wonderful an experience you had but hey everyone has their own way.

Are you referring to the single meditation experience here or the rest of it? (darshan, miserable premies, etc)

I have to say i've had wonderful darshan experiences as well as meditation

You say you were a short timer and went home to practise it. Did you go to programs for this darshan. Sounds like you participated more than you're letting on. Could you clarify?

Did you recieve K from M or a I?

Received the big K from Mahatma Parlokanand in Jan 1973 in Cleveland, Ohio. A real nothing experience.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 16:50:48 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: unusual fellow
Message:
I really am an unusual fellow. But what i meant about the bitching was that it was fun to look at and yet not be a part of because they were there to try for enlightenment and yet became embroiled in politics.

The single meditation experience, i've known premies who never practised after recieving knowledge and yet five years later they do and come out crying from the experience.

It depends what you mean by participating, in the politics no way, in trying to achieve that wonderful state your supposed to get from K, yes.

I had a very nice experience when i recieved K.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 13:37:39 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: tony
Subject: Tony, off topic
Message:
Dear Tony,
Hey are you a middle child? We recently had a thread on birth order and your saying you like to keep out of everyones way and not get involved made me wonder?
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 16:53:01 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: middle child?
Message:
Er, no Robyn i am the first born.

I meant that i liked to keep out of the way so that i could observe.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:31:34 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: tony
Subject: middle child?
Message:
Dear Tony,
I am a middle child and that is one of the traits of middle children, to stir things up and then stand back and watch. Just curious. Thanks.
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 11:00:40 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: seeing stars
Message:
Tony:

As others will surely testify, and as I'm sure you will learn, M's claim to be the exclusive or even primary franchise holder of the experience called 'Knowledge' is tenuous at best. As a first cut, read David Lane's book on his 'Neural Surfer' website, or Mark Juergensmeyer's book Radhasoami Reality. I had a conversation with another ex yesterday and he asked me how often I practiced Knowledge. He said he gets bored meditating after 5 minutes, but gets benefit up to that point. I meditate about once every two months or so, usually in the sauna. That started me thinking about the Amerind sweatlodge ceremony, as yet another 'technique' for getting in touch with that inner experience (whatever it is). I think the package has to do with a unique type of neural network that has evolved in humans. It may or may not be a divine 'implant' or some sort of connection to the divine. For the most part the fruits of Knowledge do not seem to bear out the assumption that it is divine, but I may be wrong or biased.

As for M, himself, he just skated into a 'real good thang' if you know what I mean. I frankly don't think he practices Knowledge any more than I do. Probably less.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:01:56 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: seeing stars
Message:
Hey Scott,

Wow i've never heard the inner experience explained as a neural net. That's good, very original, you know it seems you agree as would most people that there seems to be a divine being out there somewhere and since the dawn of time or man we have strived for some connection with this divine entity, but my question to you is,

Will we find this divine entity or divinity out there somewhere, maybe in space or will we find it in each and every one of us?

Since we were created as a part of this divinity i believe that i can experience not only myself from meditation but also that divine spark that give me life.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:29:40 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: seeing stars
Message:
Tony:

As I said, it is still an open question as to whether the experience heralds some divine presence or whether it is simply a side effect of the way we have evolved. It is clearly not a 'slam dunk' when people like Paul Twitchel can give people this experience, and the meditation certainly doesn't ensure holiness. Most metaphysicians say God is everywhere, in all things, so if that's the case then we can probably find him/her in everything or anythnig. Furthermore, why must we think of God as such a 'big deal' save for the fact that life is so seemingly perverse. Finding God would be a big problem wouldn't it? I mean we'd either have to forget him/her immediately or start getting really silly.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:31:25 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: finding god
Message:
To find god for some people is the ultimate challenge, which we as humans since we could first think and speak has been a mystery to us.
It is said that the first thing we uttered was 'Who made us' if we are created that is.
I tend to look on life as the wonderful aspect of god, i know you may say what about all the misery and pain in the world today but for me the very fact that i could be here now talking feeling laughing feeling pain and hurt is an experience i could never have had wherever we come from(spirit that is). So if i can experience all these wonderful things then i should also be able to experience god.
Finding god a problem?
I don't think god would see it that way.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 05:48:01 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: seeing stars
Message:
hey this discussion may be over already but I have a question for you: you say -
Since we were created as a part of this divinity i believe that i can experience not only myself from meditation but also that divine spark that give me life.

you say as a context to that that since the dawn of time there has been a divine being out there - well I ask you who decided that it was through meditation that this divine spark would be experienced or best experienced?

I have more questions but let's start on that one. One inference of that statement is that already there is a separation betweeen the physical world and god. That we can bridge by shutting off from the 'external' world ie. the one we see with our eyes open.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:37:25 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: seeing god
Message:
Judex,
I see your point, but we live in a world that constantly begs for external stimulation and we tend to forget us inside. From my understanding of what meditation is, it is a way to find the internal stimulation. Although there are some out there that is purely mental.
I do not believe in a divine being out there somewhere because i can see this being here and now in life all around me a part of everything, therefore not some seperate entity.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 03:23:37 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: seeing stars
Message:
Well-said Scott! And Tony...to add to his points, the meditation techniques can be very good for some, but Maharaji never held the patent, they are older than him and other teachers have taught them. I personally came on board in '72 because I believed it that he was God incarnate showing us the true Knowledge. I left recently because I no longer believe him to be anything but a well-programmed (from chilhood)man pursuing his own dreams. It may not be horrible to follow him or love him, but I do not choose that path any longer. People who are just now getting involved should know the whole truth. This is not just about meditation techniques!
Carol
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:43:23 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Choices
Message:
Hi Carol,
The world is about choices, that is what give us more freedom than any other form of life on the planet. We chose our destinies and what way we follow.
I never dispute who owns K, for me it works and since i have searched half my life and read so much i am content to continue at least untill something comes along and then i make use of my free choice.
If it is not just about M, techniques then what else is it about?
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 16:55:18 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: tony
Subject: hi.
Message:
Since you have announced yourself as a premie, and have posted your email address here, you can expect some email from someone at EV (which you aren't a member of) telling you that Maharaji doesn't want you to post on the internet. He doesn't want you to talk about him, Knowledge, or his personality cult.

You'll have 2 choices when you're contacted - post here anyway, or knuckle under to his whims.

As for the small boy who would be Lord, he grew into a greedy, controlling fraud. What was once his expressed 'mission' to take Knowledge to the world, has become nothing more than a self-enrichment program for him. Propagation, to the little satguru, refers to wealth. Premies are 'encouraged' not to share their own experiences - instead inviting prospects to view Maharaji drone on about Knowledge at a video showing. If they want, of course.
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 18:58:58 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Brian
Subject: hi.
Message:
Dear Brian,
I love this:
As for the small boy who would be Lord,

I kept reading it over and over before I went on so thought I'd do this!
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 04:34:42 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: missing you.
Message:
if i was that boy i'd say i'm missing you because i can feel your heart. Remember everyone grows up sometime.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 11:12:58 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: 'missing you' What's that?
Message:
if i was that boy i'd say i'm missing you because i can feel your heart. Remember everyone grows up sometime.

I haven't got the slightest idea what that means. Could not even hazard a guess.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:05:22 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: 'missing you' What's that?
Message:
Sorry sounds unintelligible.

I think what i meanyt was that maybe some of the premies miss the little boy they fell in love with and never reckoned on him growing up.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:10:12 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: 'missing you' What's that?
Message:
Tony:

I think what i meanyt was that maybe some of the premies miss the little boy they fell in love with and never reckoned on him growing up.

I certainly regret the fact that he did not grow up well. That could generate some nostalgia, but not much. I mean, middle aged boys aren't cute, they're just pathetic.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:44:41 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: 'missing you' What's that?
Message:
Touche'
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 04:32:04 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: the little boy who was lord
Message:
Does anyone know just how wealthy Maharaji is?
You know for a time he was the little boy who was a lord, of many many people.
I practise knowledge and enjoy it but it sounds like you never enjoyed the the experience Brian, and of all the replies i have gotten which are great your is the one that touches my heart the most. I think you are a really deep feeling person, but hey that's just my impressions, anyway did you enjoy the meditation techniques?
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 10:17:46 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: tony
Subject: enjoyment
Message:
I don't know that I ever enjoyed the techniques. The concept is foreign to me, actually.

Meditation was presented as a way of turning the senses inward on themselves, and experiencing the point where they all either eminate from or flow toward. It was a discipline that would reap great benefits in allowing me to enjoy everything ELSE that I encountered here - the people I met, each day's weather, poverty, wealth, etc - knowing I wasn't taking ANY of these externals with me when I leave here.

Ultimately, I'm happy when I love someone or something, and unhappy when I feel that I'm being prevented from expressing and experiencing that love - whether by other's refusal to cooperate, or by my own inner rules causing me to be reluctant to express it in any given situation.

I didn't love Maharji unconditionally, and he didn't love me unconditionally. I expected him to actually mean what he said when he was encouraging me to live my life by his rules - that they would bring me happiness. He didn't mean it enough to actually live as he told others to live.

He now has lawyers watching the site. He's paying them to figure out how to muffle those who post in the forum. He's gotten that money from those like me who believed him. He uses it for his own selfish purposes.

Were I to solicit funds to support ex-premie.org and instead spend that money on myself (houses, cars, jets, pools, crap like that), while allowing the site to deteriorate - you'd all want my head! If my gopis jumped in and said, You leave Brian alone! He works hard spending your money!, you'd laugh at their foolishness and blind devotion to a fraud. And a cheat. And a liar.

I want to see Maharaji live out his life in the abject poverty that his teachings have brought on those who gave him what they had while trusting him to spend it the way he said he would.

Let him find his enjoyment in meditation.
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 10:35:54 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: Brian
Subject: enjoyment
Message:
Touche. Expect something soon.
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 14:43:51 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: how soon?
Message:
well i'll be waiting, i have a stout heart and strong will.
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 16:29:43 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: how soon?
Message:
I'm still laughing. Have you seen Jean-Michel's LOVERS OF INDIA LINK. You might find it interesting.
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 14:42:17 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: poverty
Message:
Brian, i have a story to tell, a very personal one involving my mother wealth and poverty, maybe i'll tell you someday. I have absolutely no feelings about M's wealth, to me i have seen so many false Guru's become very wealthy praying on their devotees desire for enlightenment i,e the very notorious Bagwan Shree Ragneesh, a real deceiver. wealth is very easy to accumilate, it depends on you and if that is what you need at that time in your life. I have to tell you that nobody can can prevent your expression of love in this world, they don't have the power, but you must realise that, inner rules are just inner walls which we surround ourself from any form of hurt, meditation was about breaking down those barriers, you obviously didn't with M, have you found a new way or do you still feel something is missing?
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 15:44:13 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: Rajneesh and Maharaji
Message:
Why do you think Rajneesh is so much worse than Maharaji? What do you think any of his 'Sanyasins' would say?
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 03:11:02 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: madgurus
Message:
Well, i suppose i'm expressing my opinion on him, for me i found his methods distastefull, he lead his life as he wanted, a choice. whether i like it or not the only thing i have is my opinion.
I don't see Maharaji in the same light as Rajneesh, they say totally different things, M appealed to me R did not, nor Mahareshi or any others although i'm still undecided about Sai Baba?
I suppose his Sanyasins would disagree with me just like i might disagree with you on M, but thats what makes life so exiting the way we live them and the differences between us all.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 11:26:39 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: Sai Baba
Message:
Tony:

i'm still undecided about Sai Baba?

According to David Lane, Sai Baba is one of the five worst offenders. He's a child molester, for one thing, according to many testemonies.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:07:30 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Sai Baba
Message:
So i've heard, but nobody has ever been able to substantiate any of it, so untill they do, i'll continue to give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 19:19:40 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: Sai Baba
Message:
Notwithstanding the fact that his so-called miracles have all been duplicated by the 'Maginificent Randy,' and are second-rate parlor tricks? Have you read the stuff on Lane's site? Why would you even consider the guy??? By the way, after exiting the group his devotees are more disoriented and dysfuntional than those of any other guru, including the infamous Da Free John (alias Franklin Jones). I will give you this, Sai Baba is worse than Maharaji.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:47:45 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Facts
Message:
I'm not a fan so i can't disagree.
I've heard of Lane but again i have to say facts are better than fiction or is it the other way around.
We believ what we want i.e look at UFO's and A abductions.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:04:21 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Sai Baba
Message:
Hello Scott,
I know you like accuracy so I thought I should tell you that his stage name is actually 'The Amazing Randi'.

www.randi.org/
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 23:33:36 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: tony
Subject: Sai Baba
Message:
He was caught on tape doing sleight of hand instead of
materializing. Some of his ex-disciples said the same thing.
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 17:57:19 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: poverty
Message:
Oh no, not the old you are poor because you choose to be routine!
God, I'm glad the fireworks are starting soon.
I suppose the homeless in the middle of the desert cities share these very same thoughts as they crouch behind their cardboard boxes and awaiat the setting of the relentless sun.. yup, they are thinking 'good thing I am choosing this, it would be a real drag otherwise'
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 03:26:03 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: selena touche'
Message:
Ha, ha, i love the fireworks.
I think we have to unbderstand poverty, i've seen abject poverty in third world countries, people living like you would not believe therfore their life expectancy is so short, i walk past homeless people everyday, men, women, children etc. For me i don't view it a bad thing because this is what our western culture has created a hierachical way of living and someone has to be at the bottom of the pile, what i feel is very deep sadness.
Some do choose to live like that most don't and see no way out.
i know of a man who had everything, a lovely house, nice job beautiful wife and two kids, everything looked normal from the outside but inside him was pain, pain, pain. He had crippling debts and was working like mad to keep his illusionary life walking past the poor everday and the homeless without a seconds thought his problems were greater, then he lost his job, they lost their house, the children left their private school his friends deserted him, his life had collapsed.
He then became homeless with his family and they had to live from a stationwagon and mobile home he had scraped the money together to buy, he has been looking for a job ever since. He blames everyone.
This is true by the way, and his wife left him.
After a period of absolute distress and dejection he suddenly realised that he was free. Now he lives a really stress free life.
What do you think of him?
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 11:36:28 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: poverty not a 'bad thing?'
Message:
Tony:

For me i don't view it a bad thing because this is what our western culture has created a hierachical way of living and someone has to be at the bottom of the pile, what i feel is very deep sadness.

This seem incongruous. Those countries you're talking about are not westernized, and the poverty has to do in part with socio/cultural conditions that are hierarchical and deferential in ways that western culture no longer is. Poverty is a bad thing whether you think so or not. It is even thought to be a 'bad thing' by those who attempt to justify it, like Freiderich Hayek. If you don't think it's a bad thing, that's because you don't think.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:28:47 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: poverty not a 'bad thing?'
Message:
I agree Scott, but I think it depends on what you mean by 'poverty.' If 'poverty' means lacking the resources to live a life with the basic necessities, food, clothing, shelter, medical care, then it is, by definition, a bad thing. But if it means just not owning things, like when we in the ashram took a 'vow' of poverty, it might not be. But I agree that in the usual meaning of the term, it's a bad thing, and what is troubling is that in western systems poverty seems to be increasing, including among the so-called 'working poor' who work full time, but aren't paid enough to cover even the most basic necessities. And, at the same time, government transfer programs are being cut back.

I agree that someone has to be 'at the bottom of the pile' in a capitalist system, but it depends on how far down the bottom is.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 15:33:27 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: poverty not a 'bad thing?'
Message:
JW:

A 'demi-grant' could ensure that everyone could afford the basic necessities. James Buchanan supports the idea in principle. It was proposed a number of years ago by Gene McCarthy.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:21:01 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Demi-grant
Message:
If this means Demi Moore, I'll take one.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:45:26 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Gerry
Subject: Demi-grant
Message:
Dear Gerry,
I hear she is recently 'available' too! But wouldn't you miss Pat and her bags!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 22:42:45 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: poverty not a 'bad thing?'
Message:
Guaranteed annual income was also endorsed by George McGovern and look where he got. I liked Milton Friedman's negative income tax idea. Neither would ever happen in today's climate, though.

I think Buchanan agreeing with anything 'in principle' is grounds to be very suspect of his position.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:16:45 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: poverty not a 'bad thing?'
Message:
I disagree. Many of the third world countries are at the bottom of the pile because of the aftermath of colonial rule. They were given incredible debts and told that they can pay the interest only, untill their economies are capable of paying the larger sums involved. Needless to say that they were never able to do this and are instead paying off their loans with raw materials, minerals and food, in many cases leaving their own people starving.
We take the raw materials shape them and then ship them back to sell them at higher prices.

No wonder their socioeconmical situation will never improve, in fact a meeting of the G8 recently here in Britain were looking at how they could alleviate third world debt.

Many western companies still operate on the pyramid system which has someone at the top and building downwards to the cleaner, this is still Hierachical
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 19:37:11 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: poverty not a 'bad thing?'
Message:
Tony:

I think you mean imperialism rather than colonial rule. The US never had a colonial empire to speak of (except the Philippines and a few other pacific islands like Samoa). But the overriding reason for poverty in the third world is population. Most third world leaders know this, as do most western academics who study the problem. By the way, the most consistent aftermath of British colonial rule is parliamentary democracy and the rule of law. Not saying imperialism didn't happen, mind you. It's just that if you want to solve a problem it's a good idea to know the cause.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:58:03 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Colonialism
Message:
Your right, granted one of the main factors of poverty in the third world is population but also a legacy of colonial rule, not that i'm blaming the British mind you. I think we also have to look at the global market which is one of the most intense cut-throat environments created.
The US never had a colonial empire that i know of, but itself was under British colonial rule for a long time and like all other third world countries had to fight for its own independance. Although America has become a global power, most of the African countries who did find themselves ruling their own land have only been doing it for 30 or 40 years. To be thrust into the world market so far behind is difficult, i believe it will take time and help for them to find their feet but they will, untill then poverty will remain a third world problem.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:45:56 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: poverty not a 'bad thing?'
Message:
The US never had a colonial empire to speak of (except the Philippines and a few other pacific islands like Samoa).

Scott, I think you forgot Cuba and Puerto Rico, and, I would argue, much of Central America, especially Panama. Let's face it, the US would have had a lot more colonies if they had become a world power sooner. Direct, colonial rule was becoming passe by the time the US was flexing it's muscles. Instead economic colonialism, now increasingly on an international, coporate basis, especially dominated by the IMF, which is in turn dominated by the US, is the name of the game.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 22:51:18 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: poverty not a 'bad thing?'
Message:
Tony, I agree that much poverty in the developing world is at least in part due to the ravages of colonialism, as carried forward by that new instrument of colonialism, the IMF and the World Bank. Africa is a case in point. The debt is so large, that there is no capital for investment. All they can do is sell resources to pay the interest on the debt.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:05:20 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: bankslavery
Message:
That's correct JW, i find the trap they're in will continue for generations, for instance Africa which has huge resources of wealth and minerals is crumbling under 200 to 300 billion dollars of debts from the world bank and IMF loans, god help them.
I've coined a new phrase which i call BANKSLAVERY.
Anyone who has a loan, mortgage, finace agreements for their cars etc can include themselves in this me included.
I long for some freedom away from the rat race thats leaving us all stressed, depressed and in a lot of cases dysfunctional.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:32:34 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: selena touche'
Message:
You say, I think we have to unbderstand poverty

Here's how:
Try living it most of your childhood. Kids don't 'understand' poverty. They experience it. The prejudices. The lacking, the guilt - yes guilt - I could go on and I.
I tend to react to people who want to intellectually understand this. It usually gives me a clue they never had to live it without choice, i.e. born into it. My analogy of the homelesss in the desert was wrong, I should have used some poor little starvin marvin in ethiopia. NOw do you get it?? Anyway, I took this personally. I have money now but spent my childhood in a bad place and if I 'chose' that I challenge someone to show me how.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:15:09 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: its not personal
Message:
Selena a little appology if i upset you.
I to lived harshly or should i say politely lacking in means, i never felt the guilt but our situation made me aware of material possessions at an early age, this was compunded when my mother after years of hard wok became a very wealthy woman, then our lives changed my parents got divorced, (my father couldn't stand a woman being wealthier than him) i spent my time giving away as much as i could trying to show that i hadn't changed, OK i suppose i was feeling a little guilty but it has always stuck with me.
I have been to places like Ethiopia where peolple are so poor it renches your heart, you wonder what type of world we live in, i personally cried myself to sleep for a long time afterwards.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:32:25 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: its not personal
Message:
Thanks tony.
This is probably one of those examples of my erratic emotional state at the moment. I may have taken this out of context.
Thanks for telling me a little more about yourself, it helps.
Money is indeed a strange and yet wonderful energy exchange. It must have been very hard to go from one extreme to the other and watch your parents get divorced over this.
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 18:45:21 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: the high price of enjoyment
Message:
Thankyou Brian, thankyou, well said, well put, in a nutshell. What can we do to protect ourselves against being muffled? I think it is obvious this site is having an effect on M and if he wants it muffled then there is a reason. Put that info somewhere on the site (not to make people paranoid) to show that M is using premie's money to potentially stifle anyone who believed that 'the door is always open', after they left. If there is any indication or signs of something like this happening I think we should draw attention to it here. How M really works in real life - knowledge as a business.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 11:21:39 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: enjoyment
Message:
Brian:

I want to see Maharaji live out his life in the abject poverty that his teachings have brought on those who gave him what they had while trusting him to spend it the way he said he would.

Let him find his enjoyment in meditation.


Now THAT is a well developed sense of justice. Very well said. What do you really know about these lawyers who are watching the site? I consult for a passle of very high-priced Washington lawyers with offices about 2 blocks from the White House. Maybe I could solicit a litle free advice.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:00:27 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Scott T.
Subject: EV lawyers
Message:
There's nothing that they can do. Except hold Maharaji's hand and bill by the hour :)

Must be tough being the Ex-Lord. There's so little real power comes with the job. I have to laugh at the idea of Maharaji, who said he could make people turn blue and fly, trying to find some legal loophole to squash the free expression of dissent by us earth-bound non-blues. Life is so unfair, ain't it Maharaji?
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:13:50 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: EV lawyers
Message:
How you be sure they won't find some archaic loophole or something if they have enough time, money & pathology?
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 21:21:24 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: hi.
Message:
Hi Tony,

Have you read any of the journeys? If you haven't, read some, and you'll probably see that anger is just one of the emotional 'ports of call' that many of us have had in terms of Maharaji. I think it is a really lingering one though, because of M's continued denial of what went on in the past, and the fact that he carries on as is.

While I was a premie, the wealth thing wasn't such a major issue because I was never one of the old premies who gave up a lot of cash, or who slaved my guts out on his 707. However, recently I saw indications that his desire for expensive material things and comfort is still continuing unabated. Finding this out only added to the discomfort and confusion I had already been feeling about M & K.

Mind you, anger does appear to make a more prominent appearance here when a premie comes on and talks defensively about M and tries to justify M's actions, but what can you expect, as this is an ex-premie forum...

Regards, TD
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 04:12:42 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: hi.
Message:
TD, i believe Maharaji has got a new plane since the last couple of years, i too am not bothered by the wealth but even i have to admit its now getting too much when aspirants are being asked how much they earn per year i believe. i don't how long this has been going on for but that's one of the reasons i never became a member.
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 21:59:10 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: hi.
Message:
>its now getting too much when aspirants are being asked how much they earn per year i believe.

Where did you hear this?
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 03:32:18 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: lawyers coming
Message:
Hi CD,
hey listen lawyers would argue that that is hearsay and i'll be truthfull it is.
I wont commit to where i heard that one, i might get sued and i don't think Jim would wave his fee for representation.
I have to say in defence of M, that people these day are very shrewd about money and if they felt that M was only about there hard earned cash they would not be queing up to recieve K, which they are.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 11:26:06 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: LINE-UPS FOR KNOWLEDGE
Message:
Jeeze, where do you live? This is nonsense. MJ has given power-point presentations regarding the rapid growth of K. Where are the people? Dispite the fact that a few people (7) have received K in London, ON in the last 16 years, there are only 6 regulars who come and they are all old-timers.There used to be abut 65 people here.

The halls are somewhat empty. In North America, the festivals would be packed years ago.

Last week there was a plea to attend these summer events in Chicago, Miami, Colarado Springs and Atlantic City. As of a week ago today, only 1 700 had registerd for the premie-only event in Atlantic City which equals $25 000 according to the phone feed.

THIS IS HARDLY TAKING THE WORLD BY STORM, IS IT?
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:21:42 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: LINE-UPS FOR KNOWLEDGE
Message:
Hi Gail,

I leave in sunny England. Unfortunately i am not priviy to how many aspirant are recieving K.

But here a lot of people still attend events and many go on to be premies from what i have seen.

Remember M, took the world by storm all those years ago and he's still here, so he must be doing something right.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 19:46:56 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: LINE-UPS FOR KNOWLEDGE
Message:
Remember M, took the world by storm all those years ago and he's still here, so he must be doing something right.

Or we're doing something wrong.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:17:04 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: LINE-UPS FOR KNOWLEDGE
Message:
Are we?
Poele seem to be searching for something, maybe it will find us.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:10:59 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: LINE-UPS FOR KNOWLEDGE
Message:
I think EV publicized that 366 people received knowledge in North America in 1997. Someone pointed out that at that rate, it would take 750,000 years for everyone in the US and Canada to receive knowledge, and this assumes that premies aren't becoming ex-premies in perhaps even larger numbers.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:19:02 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: LINE-UPS FOR KNOWLEDGE
Message:
I wouldn't dispute that, but hey everyone makes their choice and learns from it.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:18:58 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: lawyers coming
Message:
I have to say in defence of M, that people these day are very shrewd about money and if they felt that M was only about there hard earned cash they would not be queing up to recieve K, which they are.

Isn't it weird how they're giving him money for the experience, as though their money doesn't do anything for them without happiness. So he takes all that useless money. Once they get the happiness & find out how to keep getting it, suddenly the money becomes very valuable but only in 'Maharaji currency'.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:22:00 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: money
Message:
I have never given anything i didn't want to, and nobody has ever pressed me. M never charged anyone for the experience and many take K, because they really want too.
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:26:59 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: hi to you
Message:
Your questions are 1) why are you angry? Is it the money? 2) Do you miss the small boy....

#2 is easy. No. I left almost 18 years ago. I really do not miss him whatsoever. I think of him purely as a fellow human at this point. I think of him as a man who at a crossroads in his life likely realized he was a fraud and not 'God' 'perfect master' or whatever and did not have the guts to let these people go. I think it is likely that his love of luxurious living and power had something to do with that.

#10 I went through a very angry phase. But I cannot say that anger has much to do with why I post or read this board. This phase in my life, when I was a premie, was just not something that my current contemporaries would understand if I were to discuss it.
I am not sure why but I find it fascinating to read that others went through similar struggles when they left. I have had a lot of feelings of embarrassment in the years since I left that I was once a cult member. There are bright articulate caring people here who were all once made the same mistake I did. We share something. My anger at Rawat, for me, now, is just not a place I want to put my mental energy. I think his cult affected my life in many negative ways that I wish I could erase. But those scars are there. When I was very angry at Rawat I never thought much about his money, I thought about how he hurt people's lives. And much like a victim of any crime or injustice I have a right to be angry. But for me the anger is an old issue.
To summarize I read and post here because it helps me undertand this phase of my life better and also because sometimes the discussions are just plain fascinating. Sometimes it is entertaining too. I empathize with those who feel very angry, they are quite justified, but so much time has passed for me that I am here more out of curiosity than anger.
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 04:20:01 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: Anger
Message:
Anger is an emotion i try to avoid, i can sympathise with all the people who have felt let down and disappointed with what they found with Maharaji, but remember that whatever we go through is a learning experience in this life and should when its very painful make us into more caring and sympathetic people. I love your reply.
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 04:45:32 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: Anger
Message:
Hi tony, enjoy what you said in this post - I'm sure it has already been said, but welcome here, hope you continue to post if you feel like it.
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 09:50:59 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: tony
Subject: Anger
Message:
Dear Tony,
Anger is an emotion I am just very recently becoming aquainted with. I have been avoiding it most of my life and have found that that doesn't work well and the anger that has been avoided stays with you and oozes out in other areas. Feel free to discuss this here as there are many of us, it seems, working on this issue.
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 14:51:48 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: love
Message:
Dear Robyn,
Love is an emotion i really want in my life, i am a scorpio and we're supposed to have stings in our tails, well i've only ever been angry once in my life, mostly now its just sadness, but i never allow that to control my life. I have a dream that i find myself riding a unicorn in a field of sunflowers, then i rise from the horse and merge with the sky and the experience was so incredible that it was painful and exquisite (no Freudian jokes please) i find that that is something i want in my life, love.
If you are angry then let it go by forgiving, that is so important so that that energy will not continue to upset your life.
There is a really wonderful story which happened in the second world war about forgiveness that i can tell you if you like?
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 15:47:26 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: new age bunk
Message:
Tony,

You don't pick out emotions like wallpaper. And, by the way, astrology's garbage. You need to snap out of your new age juvenilia, the sooner the better.
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 16:33:58 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Your Horrorscope
Message:
You mean to tell me that the first thing you read in the Globe and Mail isn't your horoscope?
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 03:42:05 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ecowarriors
Message:
Jim,

You seem to think i'm new agey type of person. Me a hard calculating Engineer/Scientist.

The closest i ever come to being in the new age scene was when i was interviewing so called ecowarriors in Brighton.

I found them to be fascinating people who really cared about the environment so much that they have given up any normal way of life and lived moving across the country fighting environmental battles.

Because i mentioned love means that i believed it needed to be said, you're right emotions aren't something to play with, life is a deadly serious game but don't lable me, i am far more objective than you would believe.

Love=New age, no, Love=being human.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 22:58:16 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: first born Scorpio bunk
Message:
Sheesh! Not another first-born Scorpio...how many of us are there here now?
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:23:52 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: first born Scorpio bunk
Message:
VP you can't be a scorpio - no, no - say it isn't true.
BTW - for your scorpio egos - I suppose you've heard the one about the 3 levels of scorpio - the highest is the eagle. The other two are - magician and the lowest is scorpion. I think. It's all mythology anyway. But the eagle is the one who soars.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:40:35 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: first born Scorpio bunk
Message:
Too many! Not that I wish any of you away, but sometimes it would be a little more peaceful around here without all the first borns/and or Scorpios. (Not to mention those stubborn first-born Tauruses - sheesh!)

Katie
First born AND fixed sign...
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:23:17 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: first born Scorpio bunk
Message:
Were just great.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 00:11:23 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: love
Message:
There is a really wonderful story which happened in the second world war about forgiveness that i can tell you if you like?
tell the story, tony! War must be one of the most horrible experiences. I always think of a poem by Wilfred Owen called 'Futility' which starts something like 'lay him out of the sun' & it's about all the young men who died in Flanders on those fields. There is another moving poem about the 2nd WW called 'Donald Armstrong' I recall (by ?), about a pilot being executed by the Japanese after having done acrobatics and 'all things in this life that he could do'. Katie, I need my poetry books back! Where did I leave them?
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 02:20:59 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: In Flanders fields
Message:
Dear Judex - There is much amazing poetry and prose that came out of World War I. I think that was the 'end of innocence' for a lot of that generation, particularly the men who had to fight. There is also poetry and prose that came out of WWII, but most of it is more worldly and jaded (for good reason). My favorite poem from WWI is 'Flanders Field'. It is very meaningful to me personally, and speaks to me of people that I know who are dead (although not in WWI). I believe this poem used to be well known, but I had to look hard for a copy of it. It's by John McCrae, who was Canadian:

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard among the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe;
To you from falling hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If you break faith with us who die,
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 04:08:20 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: In Flanders fields
Message:
Such beautiful poetry.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 04:05:51 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Death in the Fields of War.
Message:
There was a man who lived in Germany during the 2nd WW.

One day him and his family were lined up by soldiers.

In that line was every single line and generation of his family, men children, mothers grandmothers cousins the lot.

A soldier, who was also a very young boy went down the line putting a gun to each of their faces and pulling the trigger.

Down into the hole they fell, one at a time.

When the boy ran out of bullets, he would stop and slowly reload to the jeers of the other soldiers around him.

The next person in line would defeacate from fear.

The cheering becomes louder still fromthe puddle that formed before the soldiers.

This man, lets call him Micheal, was at the end of that very long line.

Micheal would look each time he heard the shot and see another family member leave the world.

Finally the his turn came.

And the gun jammed.

Michael found courage and looked at his angel of death.

'Kill me Quick' he said, 'Kill me, don't taunt me'

The soldiers were stunned.

'You speak German Ya.' they asked.

Micheal nodded.

They spared his life because they needed German speakers and took him to a concentration camp.

After some time in this camp, everyone was curious about Micheal, he seemed to lose no weight, unllike other who were dying everyday from malnutrition.

He remained a picture of health and using his health he helped many of the prisoners.

After much searching they finally traced it down to one thing.

Before Micheal entered the concentration camp, he had decide to forgive the soldiers for the death of his family. This act of forgiveness meant he wasn't being consumed by his experiences unlike all they others.

Micheal was the only one of his line to survive the war.

He never had any offspring.

This is a true story.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:00:22 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: Says who?
Message:
This is a true story.

How do you know?
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:23:37 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Says who?
Message:
I write and i am a member of writing and authors associations so i get to hear some interesting stories.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 19:48:59 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: interesting stories
Message:
I heard they found a B-52 on the moon.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:33:15 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: Tony
Subject: interesting stories
Message:
I heard the Guru Maharaj Ji was the Lord of the Universe. What's worse--I believed it.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:27:33 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: OUCH
Message:
Someone has to be.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:26:26 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: B-52 ON THE MOON?
Message:
So did i and cities made of glass too.
Did you hear about the Aliens living on the dark side of the moon?
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 14:02:25 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: tony
Subject: Death in the Fields of War.
Message:
Dear Tony,
Now that is instant gratification! I just posted to you to tell your story and then here it is! Thank you for it. I am a story teller by nature and also enjoy others stories.
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 13:55:56 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: tony
Subject: love
Message:
Dear Tony,
Tell me your story, please. Anger doesn't rule my life by any means and here we also frequently discuss forgiveness. I realized many years ago that forgiveness was my only way to save myself from years of held in anger. After realizing that it still took me almost 10 years to accomplish and since that time the journey has been faster. Dealing with issues and getting on to forgiveness. It has been an interesting, scarey, and rewarding pursuit.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 06:38:38 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@hol.fr
To: Everyone
Subject: Lovers of India
Message:
Lots of stuff regarding DLM & EV's background now online at:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/indian.htm

please send your comments to

jmkahn@hol.fr
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 06:40:04 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I goofed/Lovers of India
Message:
The address really is:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1151/indian.htm
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 11:58:38 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Direct Link to Indian heavens
Message:
If I don't goof .... click on: EV & DLM Indian Background

Ond you'll be there!
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 14:23:20 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thank you, oh shepherd
Message:
JM,

It looks really nice. I had a chance to read David Lane's comments and will read the rest later (I've got to go). Thanks for all of this. I wonder how this information which we never had will sit with premies. Sure cuts off the fog machine at the bottom of the stiarway to heaven, doesn't it?
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 19:07:41 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: one from the sheep
Message:
I'd like to contribute a brief discussion I had with my 12 y.o. daughter about this. I said 'there is new info on the site and it's really good. It shows that there is a yoga group in India who teach what M taught. It's just that he never mentioned it.' and she said 'and they never said it was the most important thing in the world.'

I don't say ours is the most informed opionion around but that's our Saturday morning (she's making banana and marshmallow pancakes for breakfast - I'm not feeling hungry).
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 21:12:27 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: one from the sheep
Message:
Judex:

Eating deviant pancakes and discussing metaphysics with a 12-year-old sounds like a lot more fun than what I'm doing: (Cranking out achievement statistics for New York schools.)

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 03:32:59 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Cutting the fog machine
Message:
I wonder how this information which we never had will sit with premies. Sure cuts off the fog machine at the bottom of the stairway to heaven, doesn't it?

That's exactly what it did for me. Once rawat's fairy tail doesn't have roots anymore, guess what happens!
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 11:13:17 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Cutting the fog machine
Message:
Thank you again for all your work. You said something really significant for me a few weeks ago. I was discussing the fear of MJs rath.

You said, 'Fairy tales.' Those two little words really helped.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 16:53:20 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Childish
Message:
Thank you too for your comments.

My feeling these days is how childish I've been believing all this, I mean, how I had a childish mind to believe in this fairy tael. It's so nice to stay a child, never wanting to grow. I don't know if 'growing' is the right idea, something near to this.
How can we stay who we really are, and not be childish about some important issues.
That's what is called maturing?
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:00:04 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Childish
Message:
Jean-Michel I don't know if this helps or not but in the new age workshops I was involved in they told a story about a dandelion. They said what is a dandelion - is it the seed, is it the sprout, is it the plant - at which stage of development is it a dandelion? And their answer was, it always is a dandelion. This may seem a bit nonsensical but I suppose it is the concept that within the true adult is the true child, complete in itself & perfect yet part of the whole being which has developed over time. Just ideas. I agree very much with not wanting to be a childish adult. The true child in me I see is/was very courageous and felt pain & had guts & lots of inspirations & awareness as well as feeling stupid, powerless, trodden on and spoiled.
I always wanted to fly as a kid, that was my main 'fairy tale' and I guess that was me being childish, even as a child.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 05:32:56 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Direct Link to reality...
Message:
Dear JM,

I havn't had time to read all of it yet but I love it. This is just what all the premies, would be premies and ex-premies need, hard information and facts.

nice work JM.

Richard
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:50:37 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Direct Link to reality...
Message:
Thank you for your comments.
All the materials that are now online on this site have been brought together by some exes.
My opinion is that we should have as much as possible to cover this issue from a to z.
That's the ONLY way to have that whole fairy tale broken apart.

I think we've made it very clear now.

There is NO way back now.
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 06:12:50 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A premie hypothetical
Message:
Hi Everyone,

This is my first post as an ex-premie. So I'm now no longer a postal virgin in that my postal cherry has just been plucked!!

Maybe some of you exes can help me with a premie conundrum that I've (we've) been faced with.

Many premies here and elsewhere say that despite all the shit that has gone down with Maharaji, all the bad decisions he has made, all the erroneous claims he has made, that that is not important. What is important is the feeling they get from practising Knowledge, and M's only role is that he helps them deepen their experience of that feeling.

SO, what I want to know and I'm throwing this out there, is do you think there is any one event or action or speech that will alienate the last of the die-hards, in terms of M and the part he plays in fostering the experience of Knowledge? All the old ashram exploitation stuff in the past hasn't entirely done it, nor has the obvious ostentatious show of M's wealth? So what will it take?

If M started charging $200 per person per video event?
If the IRS got M big-time on tax fraud and chucked him in the slammer?
If M said that personally, he's always preferred TM meditation over Knowledge?
If M got a sexchange and wanted to be called Durga Ji from now on?

Whaddya reckon?

I look forward to some insightful, poignant, profound and no doubt witty examples...

Regards, TD
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 07:03:35 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: A premie hypothetical
Message:
Hi TD,

What is important is the feeling they get from practising Knowledge, and M's only role is that he helps them deepen their experience of that feeling.

I think that this is a very important statement. Exactly what is Maharaji's role in all this? Does he even have one or is it a case of the 'kings new clothes'? I personally believe that there are only two sustainable possibilities;

1. Maharaji is a Perfect Master: in which case the knowledge is all but superfluous since the important factor is devotion to him. He will save you in return for lifelong devotion.

2. Maharaji is a teacher: in which case the knowledge is paramount but by no means exclusive to Him.

If No.1 is true then anything he does is cool; money, jets, screwing around, drinking etc. but he has the ultimate responsibility for the premies, their happiness and well-being. That is the deal.

If No.2 is true then the assiduous practice of the techniques is important but not the devotion to him since the techniques are independent of him and are available from a number of other sources and teachers.

Maharaji himself has promoted both views depending upon the audience (premies vs aspirants), the politics (cults vs world peace) and current profit margins. The guru/devotee scenario has proved profitable but is acceptable socially only to a minority. In recent times Maharaji has appeared to lean towards the teacher model in public while giving the nod to being worshipped in private.

This very real vaccillation is what has screwed most premies up, depending on what role he was playing at the time of the individuals initial involvement. His total lack of consistency should be indication enough that he does not convey, represent or reveal the truth in any way, shape or form and that he is a complete fraud. However, the psychological dependency which he cultivates, particularly the emphasis on not trusting our own minds, is very real indeed and obscures our judgement.

So, to return to your question, what will it take to get the premies attention? If, at a personal level, the good times outweigh the bad, nothing until the balance changes and the confusion/suffering/guilt begins. Plenty of people use Maharaji like a weekend recreational narcotic, scored from their friendly neighbourhood guru/dealer. Only the heavy users get dependant quickly. In the meantime Maharaji scores heavy profits.

Sorry to sound so negative but it took me 20 odd years.

regards

Richard
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:08:17 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: A premie hypothetical
Message:
Thanks so much for a great answer Richard!

That point you made about people using M like a recreational narcotic makes a lot of a sense.

One dedicated premie I know says that inbetween actually seeing M at events, his experience of Knowledge gets skewed and goes a bit 'off the track' and that once he sees/hears M at an event, his practice becomes much more clearer, focused and more beautiful. It's like another score, another hit!

So, maybe that means the devotional aspect with M has some sort of subconcious resonance on the practising experience...and that's where it gets confused? Hmmmmmm...

Another thing I've always wanted clarified is the difference (if any) between a 'Perfect' Master and just a Master? Both are used in his videos. Do you think he uses the term Perfect Master to imply that he has no humanly faults and is above other 'Masters' or is it some sort of translation from Hindi of the 'one who has this Knowledge'?

Sorry if this is old ground for you, but I'm just a newbie and full of odd little queries!!

Kind regards,

TD
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:17:04 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: A premie hypothetical
Message:
TD when I received knowledge a premie asked me afterwards (very covertly) what time he was giving it to us. She said she felt it was easier to 'get in that place' as she was practicing at that time. It was like she was trying to mainline. Truly I noticed it the first time I went to an event, the way when there was an aspirant talk, the premies all sat there soaking it up. They had no growth, no autonomy. It is such a dependency-generating thing. All I know is, there must be a real god because he/she/it brought me here, for a start. Where else could i have got the kind of help I have? Believe me, this is a miracle, I think. Thankyou, the Real God! (my RG!)
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:33:44 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Perfect Master.....
Message:
Dear TD,

Another thing I've always wanted clarified is the difference (if any) between a 'Perfect' Master and just a Master?

The inference behind the description 'Perfect Master' is a hierarchical one, something that Maharaji has always been very big on. There can be many Masters but only one Perfect Master can be incarnated at any one time.

In this way Maharaji can acknowledge the worth of (access and utilise) all religions, their Masters and teachings to his advantage (maximise his potential market). But by being the Perfect Master, can imply that all others (though worthy) are redundant in his presence (ensure market share).

Or maybe I'm just being cynical.

Richard
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:42:47 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Perfect Master.....
Message:
the English premie who first told me about knowledge & had been around since the 70's actually told me that he thought the term 'perfect master' meant that M had mastered 'perfect'. He was the master of perfect, the way someone could master any subject. This is a good example of the mind of a very dedicated premie who had such a kind heart but on the other hand an abusive streak - lots of unresolved problems right from early childhood. What a shame to watch someone like him suffering even with his great love and not being capable of being helped in the usual sense. Im not joking either btw.
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 09:20:24 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Perfect Master.....
Message:
Yeah an old premie told me the same thing - that if you want to be the best at maths go to the 'maths master'. And in terms of a spiritual life, M was the 'master of that domain' so go learn from him. (Didn't Seinfeld have an episode devoted to that? Ha-ha)

It's a tricky one, because on one hand, you've got people in our society who are seen as metaphorical Masters of a particular area, a bit like how Stephen Hawking is deemed nowadays. But the difference is that the concept of being a Stephen Hawking in a particular area is not entirely out of our reach, but being a 'Perfect Master' like M is....!!
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 21:20:03 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Mastering Spinoza
Message:
Judex, et al:

I seem to recall the medieval philosopher Spinoza talked a lot about 'perfection.' Maybe Maharaji has read Spinoza, do you think? On second thought, maybe he sat on Spinoza and that's where he got the idea he was a Perfect Master. Just speculating.

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 09:16:21 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Perfect Master.....
Message:
No you're not. That's exactly how he uses it. Thanks again.
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 10:09:04 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: A premie hypothetical
Message:
Hi TD -
Welcome to the forum. Your post was the first one I read when I got onto the forum this morning, and I think Richard hit the nail right on the head. I just wanted to concur with him. The knowledge is inside everyone and they don't need Maharaji for an intermediary.

Now as far as convincing die-hard premies, I don't even try. If they're getting all that they say out of it, then my philosophy is to let them be. There ARE a lot of people out there who are nominally still premies, are unhappy and on the edge of leaving, but are stuck for some reason. They might be more receptive to that line of reasoning.

Take care, TD
Katie
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 07:52:25 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: TD
Subject: A premie hypothetical
Message:
Many premies here and elsewhere say that despite all the shit that has gone down with Maharaji, all the bad decisions he has made, all the erroneous claims he has made, that that is not important. What is important is the feeling they get from practising Knowledge, and M's only role is that he helps them deepen their experience of that feeling.

See the thread regarding Satpal's devotee being told that he should just meditate and forget about writing a Who Was Bal Bhagwan Ji? book. The unwillingness to answer simple questions concerning Satpal's/Maharaji's lifestyle, when those questions are asked by the people that are paying for it, is a sure sign that something is very wrong. But then, so is foot-kissing...

SO, what I want to know and I'm throwing this out there, is do you think there is any one event or action or speech that will alienate the last of the die-hards, in terms of M and the part he plays in fostering the experience of Knowledge? All the old ashram exploitation stuff in the past hasn't entirely done it, nor has the obvious ostentatious show of M's wealth? So what will it take?

I think the whole thing will come to a grinding halt as those premies who are contributing to his 'mission' of self-enrichment bail out on him. He may rack up the big numbers of devotees in India, but they aren't going to be able to support him in the manner he believes he deserves. The Western premies who give him the most are those who have access to this site and the alternative viewpoint as to what his true 'mission' is. After he loses enough money (and cancels enough events) the rest will drift off due to lack of involvement. Till then, most of them will continue to justify what they already know stinks to high heaven.

If M started charging $200 per person per video event?

Cardboard boxes are cheap to live in, and the money saved can better be spent on Maharaji.

If the IRS got M big-time on tax fraud and chucked him in the slammer?

He'd be expanding his mission to spread Knowledge to now include those locked up for fraud and other crimes.

If M said that personally, he's always preferred TM meditation over Knowledge?

Wouldn't work. Premies already know that he doesn't know anything about either one.

If M got a sexchange and wanted to be called Durga Ji from now on?

Followers would make the appropriate pronoun adjustments. Devotion => Gratitude, Knowledge Techniques => Techniques Of Knowledge, Lord Of The Universe => Master, He => She.
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:56:57 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: A premie hypothetical
Message:
Brian,

Your 'in your heart' (ie not 'in your mind') premie justifications of my ludicrous examples were exemplary!! Thanks! Very funny!

Re-read the Satpal thread, but there's just GOT to be something (hope springs eternal here) that a guru does that would repel even the most ardent Indian devotee? Or do you think there's a point they cross where they become Devotee-Kamikazes (shit, we're getting into Heaven's Gate territory here)? I mean, even in those times when I felt such rapturous devotion and love for M, I deep down had some moral guidelines that applied to M that, if broken, would have had me defecting a lot sooner than now....

Incidentally, I wonder if some of the wealthier Indian premie communities like Mauritius will be able to support him, once the Western numbers drop off....

Regards, TD
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 17:24:57 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: TD
Subject: A premie hypothetical
Message:
even in those times when I felt such rapturous devotion and love for M, I deep down had some moral guidelines that applied to M that, if broken, would have had me defecting a lot sooner than now

We all did. That's how we came to be posting here now.

I don't think premies are in any way evil. But I do remember the mental gymnastics I had to keep going through to justify Maharaji's crap for a long time to myself and to those around me.

We (and those still involved) were encouraged to lie to people. Fund raising for the 707 was done with the claim that the money was going to go to pay for another Maharaji world tour. This would make Knowledge available to yet more people. Premies now are being encouraged to tell aspirants that Maharaji is a sculptor. The aspirants will benefit because they will receive Knowledge.

We participated in the deceipt because we were already participating in self-deception in order to get involved ourselves. Lying to others only 'helped' us in the long run to renew the lies we told ourselves. Never leave room for doubt.

Most premies are kept in the dark to facilitate their lying. This is a very popular site among peeking premies for just that reason - they have no other sources of information other than what Maharaji doles out to them through EV. And somewhere, deep down inside, they know that information to be self-serving to him.

Lying is all to easily justified as you allow your own personal lines to be nudged bit by bit away from who you are and toward what Maharaji wants. Eventually you get so far out on the limb that you can't climb back down comfortably. That's the benefit of the forum - that people can find support here among those who have already ridden their own limbs down to the ground and had to learn to stand again on their own.
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 17:51:48 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: A premie hypothetical
Message:
Yes, Brian, I guess that's what annoys me the most about M's trip these days, is that it is not honest.

To tell the truth, I quite enjoyed reading the old Divine Light satsangs that were published down below, and can see what it was about it that attracted me way back then. He was being very up front and honest about what he thought he was, and presenting it in a very forthright manner. I think that really shines through. (Never mind that what it IS is nonsense, but just the way it was presented then was more straightforward.) But nowadays it all seems so hush-hush, and M is so totally surrounded and seduced by Western materialism. It's like he is trying to hide the central tenets of what he is about under a facade of 'normalcy', if that's what it can be called, which is what annoys me these days. If he'd just come out and say this is a bhakti yoga devotional path and he is the one to be devoted to, like he did in the old days, it wouldn't be nearly as scary. It's all this beating about the bush and secrecy that's really cult-like and strange. But I guess he has to maintain that facade in order to remain relatable to the majority of westerners, and hence continue to keep collecting their donations. I sometimes wonder if Maharaji himself isn't held hostage by the whole thing, trapped by the monster he has created, wanting to lead a normal life but still having to play Perfect Master to support himself and his family.
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 19:45:25 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: A premie hypothetical
Message:
Yes Joy. I have had those same feelings. I wouldnt have gone for knowledge if I hadn't been told about the 'deeper' part of it. I believed devotion would do it for me - I felt the love and humility (and innocence) talked about in one of the articles in Jean-Michel's site. But I had to really really believe in M to be able to feel this. The whole process was one of putting aside mental discrimination in order to feel something 'higher' or more encompassing. I still haven't given up on the part of me that wants to experience more. I just think the way, for me, is changing.
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 19:48:12 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: A premie hypothetical
Message:
Doesn't it seem like he's made enough to retire? How much is enough? He should just quit the charade, and retire. The whole thing is ridiculous.
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 21:44:51 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: The Asan Hordes
Message:
TD:

Incidentally, I wonder if some of the wealthier Indian premie communities like Mauritius will be able to support him, once the Western numbers drop off....

You know, I think our conception of a poverty stricken population of devotees in India might be a bit off. Jurgensmeyer says that most of the followers of Rhadasoami are mid-level civil servants. Of course, Rhadasoami is a bit more progressive that M, who seems to be a reactionary autocrat by comparison to their 'socialism of the spirit' (Jurgensmeyer).

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 22:18:58 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The Asan Hordes
Message:
Yeah, you're probably right. I think if M ever went back to live in India and didn't rely on money from Western premies, he'd still be able to live like a king, or should I say a Rajah! But with the different socio-economic levels/exchange rates etc between the US and India, those middle-class premies in India would have a hard time supporting him outside of India.

But could M ever give up life in the West? I have a sick feeling that M has enough in investments and property around the world, that even if he didn't get any more cash from premies, he could still retire to the French Riviera.

BTW, has there been any more light shed on the financial arrangements of M and EV in terms of ownership of assets and the like? I've read that bit in Bob Mischlers inteview about the old arrangements, but haven't laws tightened up in the US since debacles like Jim and Tammy Baker? As a 'leader of a church', is M prevented from say, selling an asset (like the Gulfstream) and using any part of the profits for anything other than the church's work??

Looking for enlightment....

Regards, TD
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:57:16 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The Asian Hordes
Message:
It must be humility that caused me to drop the 'i.'

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 02:39:45 (EST)
From: Another
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Spleen Splash
Message:
Big Jim, denigrate away. Prove your superiority, drive those cliche infested new age mosquitos away with your special brand of repellent.

If you could just banish them, to some other site using your self perpetuating Helleristic Law, then you can keep your hard won wreath of angst, all to your self.

The problem is, I want a few of the leaves from it, to throw into the primordial soup.(Needs a little more flavor to win the Next Millenium, Sedona Chili Cook Off)

Your methods and confrontation are well suited to this medium.

You will never cower 'Oh Vitrupitive One'.

Down here in the lower 48, there is a class in juinor college called Psycology 1-A.

Ever hear of personality projection, obsessive behavior, sociopathic tendencies, meglomania or brain farts?

Yes? No? Perhaps?

Thats good, because these are things which only happen to the other guy.

Your right Big Jim, (But then, when have you been wrong)I am subject to foibles.

Such as, lack of spell and grammer check, spending too much time trying to emulate my hero King Arthur and posting from a non self aggrandizing perspective.

Moral stature has never been a stong suit for me so thanks for the promotion. I know all of the gutter rats by their first names so don't try to twist the facts about who supposes to hold the high ground in this debate. It's not you pal and it's not me either!

While you obscufate those who dare to question your logic and methodology, It's clear that you are on a power play for the minds of your followers.

Good news though, I will always spin the same predictable idioms your way.

Grace is simple thank God, or Jim, or Me, or Maharaji or everyone else.

Well, it's simple for those who understand and a damned pain in the butt otherwise.

I will try to post in Canuck from now on, Eh, it seems you can't absorb plain English because you have learned only to read between the lines.

Oh, by the way, your disciples have suggested that you piss up my leg and beat me into Nirvana with your guitar, sounds like a good idea.

One problem though, if we go tit for tat, blow for blow, I WILL WIN because I have a plethora of guitars in me quiver.

Can anyone E-Mail Don King and set up a match?

You can be 'The Rawater Swater' and I can be 'The' Jack of All the Asses'.

Your theme song could be Arti looped backwards and mine could be the Grand Canyon Suite.

By the way, your reaction and comments disparaging and mild as they were, are completly predictable. Take a deep breath and ask yourself, isn't it all about you, really?

Thanks Jim, for giving me hope of a better world.

You new best friend,

Another
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 02:55:13 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Another
Subject: Well ah died
Message:
an' gone to heaven, having a new friend like you!

So, tell me, bud, what would you like to talk about? '[P]ersonality projection, obsessive behavior, sociopathic tendencies, meglomania or brain farts'? What do you want to say? That I'm suffering from one, some or all of these? Tell me about it. I'm listening.

Can I ask you something else, too, while we're at it? What's this mean?:

While you obscufate those who dare to question your logic and methodology, It's clear that you are on a power play for the minds of your followers.

Don't forget, pal, you've got all that heart to share.
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:32:17 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: backin.padded.cell@asylum.com
To: Jim
Subject: Well ah died
Message:
What is confiburationally wrong with you Jim? I pedierterrally understand this guy tremonseradly. Don't you ved kod understand plain English? Seems obsiquential terradactilionary logic antidisestablishmentarianism.
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 10:21:41 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Another
Subject: to Another: a correction
Message:
Dear Another -
You said a few things in your post about Jim that I strongly disagree with. Here are the quotes:
While you obscufate those who dare to question your logic and methodology, It's clear that you are on a power play for the minds of your followers.

You also said:
Oh, by the way, your disciples have suggested that you piss up my leg and beat me into Nirvana with your guitar, sounds like a good idea.
This is funny, but still quite irritating. (Of course you may be trying to irritate people?)

I am tired of people coming on to the forum and saying that Jim is our leader and we are Jim's follower or disciples. I have said this a number of times, and I will say it as many times as necessary. I like Jim; I consider him to be my friend (even though we disagree on several important issues); and I appreciate his posts on the forum, even if I don't always agree with them. However, I consider myself to be on equal standing with him as far as the forum goes (not to mention in life in general), and I believe that you'll find that the other ex-premies on here feel the same way.

Regards from Katie
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 17:30:03 (EST)
From: x
Email: no
To: anoter
Subject: to: another fool
Message:
To Another,
Now that you've finished impressing everyone with your 12th grade vocabulary, and your empty threats, lets examine what you're actually trying to communicate in your round about, condescending rambling.It seems like you have a personal problem with Jim. Jim does not control this forum. He contributes a lot, but his is only one of many voices, here, including yours. I happen to agree with a lot of what Jim says, so I'm not entirely objective. However, I am a freethinking individual, and I make my own decisions, without any 'help' from anyone, whether it's Jim, or, as in your case, I assume, BM, God incarnate on the planet. Also. Don't forget. This is the EX-PREMIE SITE, not some impartial objective panel. Unfortunately, your MASTER wont allow you to have a site where you(premies)can support each other on the internet. So instead you lurk around here, and comlain. AGAINST RAWATTS 'advice'. So check yourself fool.

x
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:35:01 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: People who need leaders
Message:
Katie,
On the 'Jim-cult' issue, I think that people who need leaders (or should I say masters?) think that everyone else needs one. It goes back to that 'takes-one-to-know-one' thing. They are in a cult, so they think everyone else is. They can't understand a discussion group with everyone on equal footing. Or as you said, a life with everyone on equal footing.
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:41:25 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: so true
Message:
VP you hit that nail on the head. In fact, when I first left, I was one of those people. Only knew how to relate to people in that premie leader black and white framework. Very perceptive.
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 11:32:41 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Another
Subject: Spleen Splash
Message:
And Other:

While you obscufate [sic] those who dare to question your logic and methodology, It's [sic] clear that you are on a power play for the minds of your followers.

It is a clear manifestation of your extraordinary lack of self-esteem that you consider Jim a leader, not to mention the fact that such power intrigues as you suggest are anathema to the Canadian mystique (at least in English Canada). Take a deep breath. Concentrate on the Chad Mitchell Trio.

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 01:46:43 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: cult link
Message:
I was surfing and found this link. It may not be new to the board at all but i thought it was interesting. Especially with all the talk about whether it is worth it to try to get loved ones out of the cult. http://www.freeminds.org/psych/deprog.htm
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 02:30:19 (EST)
From: gs mom
Email: None
To: all
Subject: cult links more
Message:
this also may be old news but I found it interesting.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/recovery4.html
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 07:51:42 (EST)
From: judex
Email: None
To: gs mom
Subject: cult links more
Message:
thanks gs mom. g sure is a lucky little g to have mum like you.
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:43:55 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: judex
Subject: thanks Judex
Message:
Guenther graduated high school a couple weeks ago and starts college this fall. Hopefully he'll do well. He was voted 'class clown' of his high school class an honor richly deserved.
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 23:08:02 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: cult link notions
Message:
To keep the anti-cult movement in perspective, some text from the cult link page:

'Demons and Deprogramming

Many in the Christian churches believe that cults are victims of satanic oppression or even possession. Some will automatically think that 'all 'cultists are demon-possessed, and that using any 'psychological' technique on them is a waste of time; they should instead have the demons cast out! Yet by and large this has not proven to be true among the approximately one hundred ministries to cults that we network with. Furthermore, attempting to 'cast out demons' will most often prevent the cultist from ever talking to you again, or at least taking you seriously!

The Bible does not tell us that all people who believe false doctrines are demon-possessed. It does warn of 'doctrines of demons' (1 Tim. 4:1), meaning ideas and concepts invented and propagated by fallen angels. But note that the false ideas are in the 'mind,' and one has to deal with the 'mind' to get the false ideas out! These demons operate primarily through deception, not physical force or bodily restraint. They lie to the person, closing the mind. You, in contrast, are praying that God will open their mind, and grant them clear thoughts. '
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:40:22 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: More quotes for Passing Thru
Message:
Please, PT, read the following and admit what we all know anyway, that Maharaji claimed to be God:

1)Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion?

2)Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destoryer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 20:29:01 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Last quotes for the day
Message:
Dear Jim,Quote 1:By the stilted grammar it would appear Maharaji is quoting a saying. The comment says 'Who is the Guru (literally the revealer of light in darkness). The claim 'He is the highest manifestation of God' falls into the same category as 'God is great but greater is the Guru because he reveals God'. It means of all the infinite manifestations of God the Guru is uniquely important because he reveals God.A bit Indian but true enough.As to who I would devote my attention to,an abstract idea of god or someone who teaches me how experience god? The teacher is far more important. Quote 2: The use of brackets in this 'quote' suggests that it is not a verbatim quote of Maharaji. Please use only provable quotes in the entirity and in context.Guru Maharaji Ji
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 21:01:55 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Last quotes for the day
Message:
PT:

It's been fun. Thanks for the demonstration of the Guru's power. Hope you aren't in charge of anyone save yourself. In fact, glad you aren't in charge of yourself. You might see if John Hammond-Smythe can spare any medication.

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 21:24:15 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Wrong, PT
Message:
The use of brackets in this 'quote' suggests that it is not a verbatim quote of Maharaji. Please use only provable quotes in the entirity and in context.

PT,

This is indeed a 'provable' quote of Maharaji's from a DLM publication. The words in parentheses were added, I imagine, in the editing.

Okay? Deal with it.

When you're finished, try:

'When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ......

When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, ....

But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth.

Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing...

So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light. **** And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith.'

That's all excerpted from a 1972 Swiss pitch M gave which I got from the book 'WIGMJ?'
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 02:06:21 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Wrong, PT
Message:
I think pt is taking the piss
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 09:05:55 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Quote
Message:
Quote 1: The reason why only a verbatim quote will do is because of editing. A word added here, a word omitted there, a misplaced comma. Quote 2: Maharaji is repeating what is accepted as an historical truth to many people. That he believes that there is such a thing as a supreme teacher, who appears when the need is great and that teacher can give people Knowledge of the divine. I agree with him. You will note that at no time does he talk in the first person.PT
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 12:38:33 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Quote
Message:
Boy, PT, I've never seen anybody as good as you at whitewashing the whole of BM's message. You say,

You will note that at no time does he talk in the first person.

This is an extremely annoying habit BM has always had, making the whole issue of God/Perfect Master as ambiguous as possible, all the while being worshipped as God/Perfect Master, had Arti sung to him, draped with flowers, feet kissed, etc. And then BM and most of the premies then like to say it's the devotees who think this all up, not the Master, WE'RE the ones who project it all onto him, the humble, simple saintly Master. What a con game! If he doesn't speak in the first person, do you suppose he could then be talking about Bal Bhagwan Ji (SatPal) or some other Master? Who do you suppose he is talking about, then, PT? Is the Perfect Master a sort of office, like the Office of the President or something, to be held at various times by various individuals, almost doesn't matter who? Is THAT what he's requesting we worship?

You also state in a post further down about Arti, when someone quoted you the exact words 'Our Lord is the Superior Power in Person, I Bow Down Before Such a Wonderful Lord' that these are ancient devotional songs and not to be taken literally! Give me a BREAK! You really cannot get much more specific than that, PT, as an example of how BM thinks of himself. I cannot tell you the number of times I have been at programs where that entire song is sung to him while he sits up in his chair (sometimes in the Krishna/Mala costume) and grins. Then at the end he gets up and gives the 'blessings' gesture while exiting the stage. Don't you think if he was NOT asking to be associated with being the Superior Power in Person he might have issued a disclaimer somewhere along the line, instead of sitting there on the throne while people sing the song to him?? Is it some kind of coincidence that he happens to be sitting there at the exact moment thousands are singing that song and looking in his direction? Do you think we are all stupid or something?
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 19:53:30 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Quote
Message:
Amen, sister. Bhole Shri Satguru dev......
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 13:28:15 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Sorry, PT, you lose
Message:
Hey PT,

Guess what? Game over, bud, and you lost. You DON'T get to make up the rules as you go along and, I'm afraid, your stupid attempt to scew the rules that do exist just looks like blatant dishonesty which is, of course, what it is. I mean, you might as well be saying that Maharaji's words don't count unless he recites the Lord's prayer frontwards and backwards before each paragraph. That's how dumb you're being.

For example, your first thing about 'editing'. Sorry, fella, that's just not the way the world works. I know, I work in a world that's very word conscious and sensitive to issues surrounding evidentiary value. Maharaji's words, as transcribed in his own organization's publications, would definitely be admissible against him. Now if he wanted to take the stand, s it were, and, under oath, give some evidence to the contrary (e.g. say that he never said that, that the transcriptions were all done by the evil ashram premies under the guidance of Bob Mishler, Mata Ji and the real leader of the forces of darkness, His Satanic Majesty Bhole Ji, whose lyrics, if played backwards....) that would be admissible to. The trier of fact then, whether judge or jury, would weigh Maharaji's explanation against the inherent evidence of the transcripts and decide the issue. Again, no reasonable person in the world would decide your way. So, as I say, you lose.

But you don't just lose the immediate contest, you also lose a much bigger one and that is the contest of character. I have to hand it to John HS, our resident 'faux premie', for being able to somehow top your own idiocy... hey, wait a sec, I'm mistaken. That was 'Another' he was mocking. But the point's still there: JHS is completely challenged trying to parody you guys who seem to unwittingly outparody yourselves at every step.

Thanks for the laughs.
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 18:04:48 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim's last chance
Message:
Dear Jim,The idea was for you to find a quote that supports your frequent claim that Prem Pal Rawat said that he is God and we're not. You've had 25 years and a number of attempts for no result. Why don't you just produce the quote or simply admit to yourself and others,that he has never said it.I'm off for a few days, I'll log back in about the 7th for your offering.On a technical note, how do you copy someone's posting to include in your own.RegardsPT
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 18:48:24 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: tech note for PT
Message:
To copy and paste text:

Left click and drag across text to highlight it. Then right click on the highlighted text to bring up the menu options and left click on 'copy'.

Then place pointer in the response box where ever you want it to show up by left clicking, then right click to bring up menu options and then left click on 'paste'. That's it!

Happy clickings you dumb cluck!
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 18:51:51 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Passing through
Subject: PS to PT
Message:
Just joking about the ''dumb cluck''. I couldn't resist. It's something my grandfather used to call my grandmother when they argued. Can you imagine?!?
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 05:05:52 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: dumb cluck!
Message:
Hey Gerry, I'm laughing to myself (LTM)! - my sisters & I used to call each other than when fighting! It's great value, eh?
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 15:33:41 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: dumb cluck!
Message:
Hi Judex,

I have a sister who's name is Judith (Judy). We were very close as kids. She has five children (21 to 8 years old) and is a good catholic. We don't have much in common these days, but are still friendly. A dumb cluck is chicken isn't it?
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 22:16:47 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: dumb cluck!
Message:
a very silly chicken I would say! A kind of old-fashioned endearment around here is to call someone 'chook'. But that's not the same as being a DUMB CLUCK is it????
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 19:57:07 (EST)
From: S.F.
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: LOOK PT, M WROTE THIS!!!!
Message:
P.T.,

I have posted this before but you've obviously chosen to ignore the indisputable facts. This is a letter that M. wrote in person. I have re-typed it exactly down to the last comma. I have checked and re-checked it. It is absolutely correct. Look at the second paragraph. He says, 'Listen to me, for you will hear God. Understand me, for you will understand God.'

How much clearer can he be? I have tried in a previous post to give you an honourable way out. You persist in your manic fantasy that M. never claimed to be God. You're an idiot.

Here is the letter again. Read it, apologise and sod off!

Salutations at the Lotus Feet of Satgurudev


Dehradun

Dear Premies,

I am happy to receive your loving letter. Sorry for this belated
reply as I was busy at a satsang programme.

I have given you the seed. Plant it in the field of your life;
grow and harvest the crop. Peace and harmony will prevail on you.
Listen to me , for you will hear God. Understand me, for you will
understand God. I am always with you; it is you who should be
with me to harmonize this world. The Almighty above needs no wealth
or power but only wants our love. He has given us so many things
which we claim to own, for example eyes, nose, our family etc.
We should at least thank Him and serve Him for what He has done
for us. We would have been incomplete if we had never had eyes
or any of the other organs. He is the scientist of scientists
because He has perfectly made us. He has made us perfect to be
perfect and to know the perfect and this is all.

Every person has to be the son in order to be the father. This
is natural law. Similarly, in order to be with the Lord one has
to be a humble servant in the beginning.

You in your western world are crippled with materialism. Come
to me for I shall heal you from your disease. Your eyes are blind
for you cannot look to the spiritual world. Come to me, for I
shall enlighten you. If you are lame, I am there to help you.

Dear aspirant, day by day men are exploring materialism. But the
saints have explored in the spiritual sphere. Scientists write
books and devise theories while the saints write scriptures and
sing the glories of God. Love God for he is love. See Divine Light
for He is Divine Light. Sing His glory in words for He is the
Word. Quench your thirst for He is nectar. Listen to the heavenly
harmony from which the universal frame began.

You have not seen me nor have I seen you face to face. But distance
never blocks love, for I have received your loving letters and
when I read them my heart is filled with your love. It spills
with joy and I have only tears to shed. Don't be so eager to see
me for I shall come to see you. I believe that a man should be
so close to God that no gap remains between the two. He feels
God and God feels him. Just as with the state of saturation described
in science and the state of tranquillity described in the scriptures,
the state of perfection as the ultimate goal of civilization has
to be reached by man. Practise and meditate on the Word which
is the essence of the universe, because as you all know practise
makes a man perfect. Don't worry if you are a sinner or if you
err, because it is said, 'To err is human and to forgive
is divine.' If God had His divinity, then He will forgive
His sinners. But one must not wantonly indulge in them and must
avoid them.

I send you my blessings and hope you will meditate and convey
my message to your brothers and sisters and to all the citizens
of your country. Lead a perfect life, and may victory and success
be with you.

Yours,

Shri Sant Ji Maharaj
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 21:37:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: PT, that's L-O-S-E. Get it?
Message:
No, no, PT, you've already LOST, see?

I tried to explain to you how it works. You're a constestant, fella, not the referee. And I'm perfectly content in claiming that the little 'reasonable man' referee I've got in my head has judged the matter toto fintito. SLAM... went the gavel. 'Out' cried the umpire. Thumbs down from all the crowd, 'lynch 'm' shouted the mob. Any court you want, bud, you're down. Down for the count, over and out. You've lost.

Now, if you want to make a further fool of yourself, please, be my guest.
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 02:28:45 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Jim's last chance
Message:
When a premie told prempal that he'd made his dog a vegetarian, prempal said angrily 'If I wanted dogs to be vegetarians, I would have created them to be vegetarian'

....still if I was God incarnate, I would be angry at those trying to change the very nature of MY creation.

why are you so embarassed about prempal being God, when I was a 'follower', I loved it and was honest about what I believed. I had great fun talking to leaders of virtually every religion/cult/movement...and brought many of them to the big K.

.....I suppose I'll go to Hell now...from every groups viewpoint
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 05:09:07 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Jim's last chance
Message:
.....I suppose I'll go to Hell now...from every groups viewpoint

& what if there are groups in hell? (shudder)
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 13:38:03 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Oh no, I'm confused!!
Message:
When a premie told prempal that he'd made his dog a vegetarian, prempal said angrily 'If I wanted dogs to be vegetarians, I would have created them to be vegetarian'

Jethro,

How do you know this? See, in the LOTU video, BBJ makes just the opposite point, that M turned his own dog into a vegetarian and thus is the Lord of all creation. Wow! I don't know what to believe anymore! Holy cow!
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 02:13:03 (EST)
From: jethro
Email: jethro@compuserve.com
To: Jim
Subject: Oh no, I'm confused!!
Message:
'How do you know this? '...errrr not sure...in he 70's there were so many meetings with him and his holy one's and his 'special' devotees...anyway I have no doubt that he thinks he's god...or the creator of god.....or the creator of the creator of god....etc...etc

I'll have to dig out my old 'special ashram satasang tapes'...

JC
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 21:53:39 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: Passing thru
Subject: Is MJ for real?
Message:
This site has, obviously, sent me into a complete spin. I watched an old tape (1979) with another person tonight. When he started to dance to All Night Long, I started to cry. It is very painful for me to realize that I have lied to myself all these years. He is not the Lord, Satguru, or whatever.

If he was these things, why did he tell us to get rid of old pictures, tapes, etc? Why are the new folks kept in the dark? Why are we introducing MJ with a script? Why is it getting so weird? Why the push for money? Why the video from MJ the other night saying 'I'm not worried?' (see mole entry)

Remember how many people used to go? Where are these new people now? Why don't the people who receive K these days stay on?

Why? IT IS A BUNCH OF LIES. I hope every last premie on the face of this earth comes out of this intact, but it is unlikely. I hope you do.
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 09:32:45 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Real for some
Message:
Who is in the dark? Maharaji talks about Knowledge on video tape so people can be absolutley certain what he is saying. If they decide they want what he is teaching, he teaches them. End of story. They are free to practice or not. Push for money? The most an uninvolved person sees is a contribution box at a video event. If YOU decide YOU would like to be involved YOU can go to a private meeting and be informed of the obvious fact that producing videos and events costs money.Where are all the people? Some are attending video events at 7,000 locations in 75 countries and some aren't.Why don't people stay on? Who says? Maharaji gave Knowledge to 17,000 people last year and they are free to practice Knowledge how ever they like. PT
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 18:15:27 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Missed Some
Message:
Thru, I've noticed you are pretty selective in responding to people's coments, ignoring many. Like, several of Gail's, including why are there canned introductions to videos these days? Why can't the premies give satsang? And as for money, well, I was personally one of BM's henchmen for years and we cajoled every single premie into donating every spare cent, partly so he could spend millions on a Boeing 707 aircraft. Oh, yes, Mahararji LIED to the premies about that one, he instructed that premies be told the money was going to a WORLD TOUR, when it was actually going to a passenger aircraft refitted with gold plumbing fixtures for himself.

If he didn't think he was god, how come we endlessly sang Arti to him in his presence, 'superior power in person, et al' how come 'lord of the universe' was his title, how come he specifically approved the 'superior power in person' language? How come, if he wasn't any of that, that he never lifted one chubby finger to dissuade any of us from those beliefs? Don't you think as our teacher and 'master' he might have had some obligation to do that? Oh, yeah, why DOES he need that fleet of luxury cars and a $30,000 wrist watch?
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Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 05:15:06 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Missed Some
Message:
Oh, yeah, why DOES he need that fleet of luxury cars and a $30,000 wrist watch?

Well JW that wristwatch has given M some good story material so I suppose it could go under 'expenses'. Many stories about watches, about time, about what time is. Actually I enjoyed them. But he could have added that $30,000 factor to the story about how the watch was wrong (because he didn't reset it) for added emphasis, couldn't he? Or maybe he just needs some good satsang himself?
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 02:02:54 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Last quotes for the day
Message:
How about this pt, written by prempal himself
'The Lord is the maker of all things created, he keeps them and brings them all homw to his word, the LORD IS THE SUPEREIOR POWER IN PERSON,I BOW DOWN BEFORE SUCH A WONDERFUL LORD'.
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Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 09:37:33 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Arti for Jethro
Message:
Devotional songs have been sung for thousands of years. Didn't you sing hymns? They're not to be taken literally.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 23:18:42 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Hymns, Mickey?
Message:
Let's ask our resident priest, Mickey. I may be wrong, but we always took hymns very literally. If not, what was the point in singing them? They were praises to God in most cases. A way to worship. I never ever heard that hymns weren't to be taken literally. I guess the sermon wasn't either...
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 20:38:35 (EST)
From: psuedo prem
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: so very sad Jim.....
Message:
Jim, You miss the point. Which is that Knowledge cannot be understood with the intellect. To try to take words and analyze them is the folly of the mind. In the word there are no inconsistancies. Satsang is an experience, not details to be analyzed. Our lord and master may sound like He is full of shit..but it does not matter because He told us if we think He sounds like he is full of shit that is our mind talking. So He can only be empty of shit...and full of grace. You see, the rotting vegetbles are his shit, his holy shit, and he has shat upon each and every one of you for analyzing what he says. It is not meant to be analyzed, only savored, enjoyed.... sort of like he sips his Gin and tonic. I feel so sorry for you Jim because you miss out on the experience he offers each and every time you insist on what he says making sense. JSCA....bwudder ji.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 22:20:13 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: Jim
Subject: Jim's e-mail address
Message:
Jim, I've lost your address and need to send you a message.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 22:37:00 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Gail
Subject: Jim's e-mail address
Message:
Here it is:

heller@bc1.com
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