Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 15

From: Jun 28, 1998

To: Jul 6, 1998

Page: 5 Of: 5



Becky -:- Brothers & sisters again -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 08:37:02 (EST)
__Peter -:- Brothers & sisters again -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 11:39:06 (EST)

burkeoid -:- conversations with Mark -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 01:53:51 (EST)
__Judex -:- conversations with Mark -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 05:41:45 (EST)
____VP -:- conversations with Corgis -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 09:20:02 (EST)
______Judex -:- conversations with Corgis -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 07:41:43 (EST)
__Katie -:- conversations with Mark -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 06:55:54 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- conversations with Mark -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 10:54:22 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- conversations with Mark -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 11:00:16 (EST)
__Mark -:- conversations with Mark -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 14:49:07 (EST)
____Judex -:- conversations with Mark -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 06:58:26 (EST)

G's mom again -:- anything new about his kids? -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:34:05 (EST)
__CD -:- kids -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:55:04 (EST)
__Katie -:- anything new about his kids? -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 18:42:40 (EST)
____Selena -:- anything new about his kids? -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 18:52:24 (EST)
______gs mom -:- thanks for info(nt) -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 21:46:41 (EST)
__Judex -:- anything new about his kids? -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 05:47:07 (EST)

g's mom -:- hypnosis experience -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:11:03 (EST)
__Katie -:- hypnosis experience -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 19:53:42 (EST)
____Joy -:- hypnosis experience -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 20:34:22 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- hypnosis experience -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 20:37:17 (EST)
____g's mom -:- I have similar reactions.. -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 21:45:41 (EST)
__petebear -:- hypnosis experience -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 22:08:06 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- That old Felix Mesmer. -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 22:56:19 (EST)

G-s mom -:- I am still on mailing list -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 12:24:12 (EST)
__Joy -:- I am still on mailing list -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 13:45:39 (EST)
____red heart -:- slave of doubt -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:40:35 (EST)
____gsmom -:- I am still on mailing list -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:49:59 (EST)
______VP -:- I am still on mailing list -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:47:03 (EST)
________VP -:- oops, wrong g name -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:49:24 (EST)
__red heart -:- use the return address -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:30:21 (EST)
____gs mom -:- use the return address -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:44:40 (EST)

Jim -:- Fresh Thoughts -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:23:22 (EST)
__red heart -:- Fresh Thoughts -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:37:49 (EST)
____redheart -:- Fresh Thoughts -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 18:08:21 (EST)
____John Hammond-Smyth -:- Fresh Thoughts -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 21:57:10 (EST)
______Anon -:- Fresh Thoughts -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 07:12:56 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Fresh Thoughts -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 09:12:47 (EST)
____Richard -:- Hand up skirt.... -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 04:47:18 (EST)
__Becky -:- Fresh Thoughts -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 08:42:31 (EST)
____Selena -:- Fresh Thoughts -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 12:46:30 (EST)
______Peter -:- changes -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 21:08:34 (EST)
________Selena -:- changes -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 21:15:53 (EST)
__Woody -:- Fresh Thoughts -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 11:48:52 (EST)
__Judex -:- Fresh Thoughts -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 07:07:24 (EST)
____Jim -:- Still thinking -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:12:07 (EST)
______Judex -:- to Jim -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:10:27 (EST)
________Judex -:- to Jim - no email please -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 03:37:12 (EST)

A current practictioner -:- practicing -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 05:47:30 (EST)
__Sir David -:- practicing -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 06:14:03 (EST)
____Judex -:- practicing -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 06:19:20 (EST)
______Gail -:- THIS IS A CULT!!!!! -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 08:47:56 (EST)
________red heart -:- The Uncult -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:08:35 (EST)
__________Rick -:- The Uncult -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:21:23 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- The Uncut -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 12:19:52 (EST)
____________red heart -:- The Uncult -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:55:16 (EST)
__________bftb -:- The Uncult -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 11:52:21 (EST)
____________Sir Cheese-Whiz -:- The Uncult -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 12:16:53 (EST)
______________Cheese-Whiz -:- Footnote -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 12:35:44 (EST)
________________Scott T. -:- Footnote -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:10:54 (EST)
__________________Cheese Whiz -:- Tale of Two Istrias -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 21:10:19 (EST)
____________________Scott T. -:- Tale of Two Istrias -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 22:25:14 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Endnote -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 22:48:09 (EST)
__________________Sir David -:- Endnote -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 04:38:14 (EST)
______________g's mom -:- agree -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 12:47:52 (EST)
________________red heart -:- me and Maharaji at the piano -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:08:21 (EST)
__________________g's mom -:- me and Maharaji at the piano -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:12:58 (EST)
____________________g's mom -:- if you only knew honey... -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:15:19 (EST)
__________________Scott T. -:- It's magical -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 19:58:00 (EST)
______________red heart -:- The Uncult -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:03:53 (EST)
____________red heart -:- The Uncult -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:00:04 (EST)
______________bftb -:- The Uncult -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 18:48:20 (EST)
________________Selena -:- The Uncult -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 12:37:46 (EST)
________CD -:- music album -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 14:52:12 (EST)
__________Jim -:- auction -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 15:16:22 (EST)
__________jethro -:- music album -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:01:52 (EST)
____________Jim -:- music album -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:07:00 (EST)
______________jethro -:- music album -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:36:31 (EST)
____________CD -:- music album -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:47:00 (EST)
______________Jethro -:- music album -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 19:07:42 (EST)
________________CD -:- music album -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 21:16:40 (EST)
____red heart -:- practicing w/o the Master -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:21:00 (EST)
______Sir Cheese-Whiz -:- practicing w/o the Master -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 11:21:27 (EST)
________red heart -:- practicing w/o the Master -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:44:41 (EST)
__________Cheese Whiz -:- Wrong - guess again -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 21:37:23 (EST)
______Richard -:- practicing w/o the Master -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 06:19:14 (EST)
____A /ACurrent Practictioner -:- practicing -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 13:23:43 (EST)
______Rick -:- practicing -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 13:54:51 (EST)
________CD -:- practice what -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 21:11:04 (EST)
__________Katie -:- promised what?! -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 22:17:51 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- promised what?! -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 23:34:18 (EST)
______________Katie -:- promised what?! -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 08:07:24 (EST)
________________Robyn -:- promised what?! -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 09:51:29 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- promised what?! -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:05:55 (EST)
____________________Robyn -:- promised what?! -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:32:20 (EST)
__________Rick -:- practice what -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 00:11:25 (EST)
____________VP -:- ?? for new prems or Mr. Ex -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 08:47:44 (EST)
______________Judex -:- ?? for new prems or Mr. Ex -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 15:11:51 (EST)
________________VP -:- informative, Judex -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 23:38:34 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- informative, Judex -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 08:11:48 (EST)
__________Brian -:- practice what -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 08:21:53 (EST)
____________CD -:- practice what -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 13:16:09 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- Chris, a question. -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 16:54:07 (EST)
________________CD -:- Chris, a question. -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 18:39:16 (EST)
______________Carol -:- practice what -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 02:39:14 (EST)
____________Gail -:- New Vows to MJ -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 14:50:53 (EST)
______________Katie -:- New Vows to MJ -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 08:15:43 (EST)
________Judex -:- practicing -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 06:29:14 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- practicing -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:37:28 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- practicing -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:19:55 (EST)
______red heart -:- practicing -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:51:47 (EST)
______Richard -:- practicing -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 07:29:55 (EST)
__red heart -:- practicing -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 09:58:39 (EST)
____Gail -:- practicing -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:35:44 (EST)
______Sir David Gee-Wiz -:- practicing -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 13:01:14 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- practicing -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:49:03 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Sorry -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:42:36 (EST)
______Mark -:- practicing -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 13:50:58 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- practicing -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 12:28:10 (EST)
____Carol -:- practicing -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 02:56:58 (EST)
__Gail -:- practicing -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:37:52 (EST)
____Joy -:- practicing -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 12:07:56 (EST)
____red heart -:- the ''L'' word -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:56:17 (EST)
______Gail -:- the ''L'' word -:- Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 18:40:25 (EST)
________JW -:- the ''L'' word -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 01:14:04 (EST)
__________red heart -:- to JW & bye for awhile -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 04:15:55 (EST)
____________Rick -:- to JW & bye for awhile -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 11:27:46 (EST)
____________JW -:- Bullshit red heart -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 13:49:05 (EST)
________red heart -:- the ''L'' word -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 03:49:25 (EST)


Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 08:37:02 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Brothers & sisters again
Message:
I never had a sister, although I now have a close friend and we both regard each other as sisters. My brother and I have nothing in common and rarely communicate. Yes, I did mean that we are all yooman beens. It's just a shame that the 'ideal' of the brotherhood of man has been tarnished by the hippy movement and by the likes of M. i'm not denying my anger. I get VERY ANGRY and often do quite nasty things to people with whom I'm angry - although i'm trying to learn to deal with it in a different way.
Any suggestions anyone? Take up boxing, perhaps?
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 11:39:06 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Brothers & sisters again
Message:
In my opinion, a good therapist is the best way to learn how to express anger appropriately and deal with past hurts. What's good? One who gets something, anything, to happen for you while maintaining a place that you feel is safe for it to happen. If nothing's happening, or it doesn't feel safe, try another one. If money's a barrier, many health or social services offices have social workers trained in therapy.

Telling stories on the forum, like 'shock & betrayal,' is probably also good. There's the potential here for a lot of support and validation, but also the risk of getting criticized.

And boxes of cheap dishes from yard sales.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 01:53:51 (EST)
From: burkeoid
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: conversations with Mark
Message:
Of course the title of the thread refers to the book you
and Katie reccomended. The recorded conversations of
Neal Walsh talking directly with the god.

You mentioned below about 'how many are not ready to disengage
from thier belief systems for direct experience and the
unpredigested path of uncertainty.'

The book covers part of that when it says 'in most cases, youve
chosen to accept someone elses decision. Someone who came before
you and presumably knows better' in the book they are referring
to ALL groups but then again the whole book is loaded chock full
of decrees on what life is really about and how it all works
and the validation for all these ideas is that the ultimate
godhead of all is channeling these comments through this guy
Neale Walsh.

The ultimate godhead throws his considerable weight behind
quite a few buddist eastern and new age ideas.
The I-am movement, and is more than casually dismissive
of the christian thing.

Clearly Neale is a product of his buddhist background.
And a ton of new age reading.

Here is the god speaking: 'you may think this is easy, this
'be who you really are' business, but it is the most challenging
thing you'll ever do in your life. In fact, you may never get there. Few people do. Not in one lifetime. Not in many.'

I think the mess of religions and also a lot of sour grapes
easterners is the reason this 'pure creation' of thinking
came on the scene and incorrectly paints the reality.

The power that does exist and is concious is unwilling to
have a planet full of godheads walking around with actual
god like power because of reasons I can take a guess at.

First, look at the playing field. We are loaded with human
nature and we are prone to excess and we have a huge range
of possible reactions to any moments situation. You cant
solidly embrace an attitude of any type and maintain a
constant grip.

You can try to be any definition of loving and you will find
yourself faltering in your effort. People put on fronts that are
completely unsupported by any solid grip on anything really
real.

I picked up a buddist mag at the store and read it there and
the big new 'understanding' is that 'practice' leaves you off
before the 'oneness' reality kicks in. And whatever you DO
supposidly experience doesn't last.
And so the new topic is a form of do-goodism for others.

If I am going to be real after being a fool for rawat,
I have to recognise and test the playing field we are on and
know the parameters of play.

If you can suggest to me ANYONE that has ----well, certainly we
can agree that the dali lama qualifies as THE test case.
He is the incarnation of the greatest one who went as far as
one can go and still stick around and come back.
Without cluttering up my post with a lot of him, research
into his words will leave that issue a win for the side that
says we CAN'T just assume divinity and our REAL self of
(too quote the book) 'there is naught but you'.

Jim what the heck do YOU think?

The book says ' to change your reality, stop thinking like that.'
Now a case can be made for being origional and reorient your
thinking, the book, or god, takes that too far and uses that
to support a false assumption about life that can't be backed up.

It is just like the folks that take darwinian views too far.
They are really overeacting to the religious zealots and the
new age movement is overeacting to the clearly partially confused
religious zealots and churches.

To quote an old bob mishler line I remember: 'Getting things
out of proportion is like second nature to us.'

I know You didnt write the book.

I think you are on to something when you said:
'disengage for direct experience',
but I dont think you have disengaged from the eastern
programming. It is not the genious wisdom it claims to be.

It is a false front in the way of you and me seeing the reality
as it really is.

I am off to princeton in a couple hours so I will respond in
a few days to whomever posts about this stuff.

Hope it doesn't come across as preachy or anything.
This is my wrestleing out loud.

By the way I am an 'avid' reader of all the exes posts, but
I am getting behind for sure.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 05:41:45 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: burkeoid
Subject: conversations with Mark
Message:
We are loaded with human
nature and we are prone to excess and we have a huge range
of possible reactions to any moments situation. You cant
solidly embrace an attitude of any type and maintain a
constant grip.


Dear burkeoid, hope this thread was an invitation to all.

The above is a good reason why I, for one, am categorically stating I am NOT god.
Whew! got that one out of the way (no, ego, down, down boy, you are not either)

I agree with your reservations regarding this book. It sounds very much like most New Age Religion-type stuff. There are lots of those channelled books - Emmanuel is another one ,with a foreword by Ram Dass.

They are usually pretty harmless, they say nice things to make you feel better. It's all just the same old icing on the same old cake isn't it.

Well I took my dog for a walk today and watched him wrestle with other dogs. Sometimes they snarled at each other (couple of mean Boxers) but mostly it was tusselling, rolling, taking turns to be on top (top doggie), all that stuff. Next he headed for the filthiest mud puddle he could find, with another dog gleefully in tow. They went down to the mangroves and came out wearing black stockings. By this time I gave up; we were on foot anyway and I knew I could hose him down. But my first reaction was to get him to stop going in the puddle because it is inconvenient for me. But hey, look at it in his eyes! That's what he loves to do. He loves swimming, too, which is unusual for a corgi - people seem surprised anyway.

Well it's a wonderful life and why worry about god too much - Im sure god is doing enough worrying about us!

Regards to all
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 09:20:02 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: conversations with Corgis
Message:
Judex,
I used to have a Corgi. They are nice dogs, eh? I appreciated what you had to say about just letting them make a mess (even though it is inconvenient for you.) I am working on this in my own life...Thanks for a smile this morning.

VP
Watching my kids make a HUGE mess...and trying HARD to ignore it :-)
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 07:41:43 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: conversations with Corgis
Message:
Dear VP
Now my daughter has grown out of that stage, I can look fondly back at it. I adore looking at new babies and littlies - I love children. I just know what bloody hard work it is while you are actually being the parent - sort of like real life in a nutshell. What could be more rewarding but at times more difficult?
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 06:55:54 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: burkeoid
Subject: conversations with Mark
Message:
Hi Burke - just to set the record straight, I didn't relate to the book all that much. I didn't even read the whole thing, so I can't comment on it. It was highly recommended by me by someone who said that it had changed his life, and made him feel much better about himself. I always like to read things that other people recommend to me, if I can. I have found some good books that way.

I do know that 'Conversations with God' has helped a lot of other people get over some of their heavy programming regarding religion and god. It's also gotten a lot of criticism. You might be interested in reading some of the reviews of this book on the Amazon.com site.

I saw that Mark recommended it to you, so I thought I would send it to you so you could see what he was talking about (along with the lipstick tapes - don't tell me you liked THOSE better!)

Take care, burke.
Katie
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 10:54:22 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: burkeoid
Subject: conversations with Mark
Message:
Dear Reverend Burke:

(Just kidding.)

RE: It is just like the folks that take darwinian views too far.
They are really overeacting to the religious zealots and the
new age movement is overeacting to the clearly partially confused religious zealots and churches.


I assume that this is a sort of shorthand statement, and that you don't really mean to suggest that the truth lies somewhere between these points of view. After all, it is possible that the truth does not even lie on the same plane, and possibly not anywhere close to any of these views. In addition, there are a range of views on the Darwinian side. The standard deviation among the new agers is almost as big as the range. (For the non-quantitative, I mean they are all over the map.) I still do not think an entirely objective view is possible, and the notion that absolute objectivity is not only possible but fairly easy is an extraordinarily presumptuous arrogance.

From time to time we make breakthroughs that yield what appears to be an entirely new dimension. I'm not sure how these breakthroughs occur, but some folks are suggesting that a willingness to see yourself as inappropriate is at least partly related to a greater frequency of breakthrough events. In English, what I'm saying is that if you're embarrassed about something you may be on the right track, ironically. This may be God's little cosmic joke on us, and to tell the truth it does have a certain charm.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 11:00:16 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: conversations with Mark
Message:
bb:

I should say also that if you're embarassed ALL the time you may need to read a few more new age self help books, or see an analyst.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 14:49:07 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: burkeoid
Subject: conversations with Mark
Message:
you saw a Buddhist.
I saw a Christian.

anyway, the main thing is just getting different perspectives

Monroe, ( in the Ultimate Journey)
is as un newagey as can be

hes the guy who discovered that certain sound frequencies
externally applied, can trigger uniformly experienced states
of what can be termed out-of -body/ or superconscious states

I like him because he was a radio station owner in NY in the 50's
the days of Willie Micky, Ike and the Duke, and suddenly he started having Lionel Richie ' Dancin' On the Cieling' experiences

and without any paradigms or satgurus around had to try to decipher the experiences, and see how to induce this state for others.

Check the Monroe Institute pages

Sorry if Neil Walsch wasn't your cup of tea.
Actually if you're ready for some really Wacky stuff
try Pleiadian Agenda
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 06:58:26 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: conversations with Mark
Message:
Has it ever occured to you Mark that had Monroe really discovered something as fantastic as being able to control Out of Body Experiences and thus discover the secrets of the afterlife (yes I have read some of his books) that there wouldn't have been some sort of a reaction on the planet since the 1950's?

It's not is it interesting, or unusual, or fantastic - but is it real? What value does it have to do (apart from going - oh wow). How is your life going? Does this stuff help?

To me that sort of thing is like being involved with a false master. You don't even realise how off-track you are at the time. Sorry, just my opinion.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:34:05 (EST)
From: G's mom again
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: anything new about his kids?
Message:
The last time this board fascinated me so I learned these things.

Premlata-went to college.

Hans Pal- ( I don't know him I can't bring myself to use the familiar Hansi) may or may not be the rebel son disgusted with Dad.

Dayalata- jazz vocalist. Read she dabbles in resturants.

Amar- have heard nothing whatsoever.

I was always interested in these kids. At my most devout wanted to be their divine babysitter. Now they would be adults. These are my questions to anyone who knows. How were they educated? Were they mixed in non premie schools? How do you think they explained dad on what does Daddy do for a living day? Are any of them married? Are there any Rawat grandchildren yet? Are they as good looking adults as they were kids? All teens go through rebellion I wonder how these expressed it? Were they taught to be respectful of the premies who waited upon them?

Just curious. G mom
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:55:04 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: G's mom again
Subject: kids
Message:
You can see the daughters singing a song together that Premlata (Wadi) wrote on the Long Beach 97 highlights video.
Daya is not a 'Jazz' vocalist by the way. She writes and performs several styles of songs. Her best so far is the song 'Majic of Love'.
I think Premlata attended UC Santa Cruz for a couple years.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 18:42:40 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: G's mom again
Subject: anything new about his kids?
Message:
Hi G-ma -
I recently watched part of the 96 Long Beach video. Daya sings in it and she has a very good voice. She is also very beautiful (IMHO) - she looks a little like both her parents - more like Marolyn in the face, but with very long dark hair.

The video is still stuck in my VCR until I can stand to watch the rest of it. Then I am going to send it to someone else who'd like to see it. If you'd like to look at it, let me know. (Review of this vid by JW is on the site, if you're interested.)

Katie

P.S. I owe you an e-mail!
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 18:52:24 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: anything new about his kids?
Message:
Last I heard from prmies who love to gossip:
Premlata quit college, is working at visions.
Daya, well that 's pretty obvious
The boys remain a mystery. Hoepfully because they are rebelling!
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 21:46:41 (EST)
From: gs mom
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: thanks for info(nt)
Message:
no text
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 05:47:07 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: G's mom again
Subject: anything new about his kids?
Message:
How were they educated? Were they mixed in non premie schools? How do you think they explained dad on what does Daddy do for a living day?

G's mom - M mentioned on a video that they asked to be taken out of school and educated at home. At first he thought no, but then he remembered what childhood is like, and kind father that he is, said yes.

So he said they had good tutors in their own home, which had better facilities than the school, plus it cost less. I am obviously paraphrasing what I recall him saying.

So it seems that school would not have been easy for these kids. (my interpretation)
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:11:03 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: hypnosis experience
Message:
here is a tale from my life...can anyone relate?

I am dental phobic. Normally when I go to the dentist I get nitrous oxide and it works great to calm me down. A couple years ago I needed a root canal and the only specialist who was available did not use nitrous. This was VERY upsetting to me.

Along with an offer of a sedative the suggestion of hypnosis was made to me. I knew the hypnotherapist from the hospital where I work and liked her. But when she tried to hypnotize me I became VERY VERY anxious and could not go on. I told her that it was reminding me of my cult days. I found this very embarrassing as I really do not like to be viewed as someone who would ever have been a cult member. But she was very understanding. You see, as soon as she had begun the hypnosis I was feeling as if I was 13 and in the knowledge session entrusting myself completely to another. I did not like the idea that through hypnosis this woman could gain control over my powers of reason.

She seemed to know something about cults and was very able to tailor what she said to give me control. A lot of the words she used were then about how I was in control and that I was making a choice to use this tool to cope with a simple tooth problem, nothing more than that. It helped and the hypnosis did indeed help me tolerate the dental procedure. It was a good example though, perhaps not terribly profound though, of how even many years later the cult can haunt a person.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 19:53:42 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: hypnosis experience
Message:
Dear G's mom -
I have never been hypnotized, so I don't know if I would react that way. I did have (and still have) a problem going to 12-Step (ACOA and Al-Anon) meetings because they remind me of satsang.

I also have problems going to professional conventions where one has to listen to a lot of short talks. (In fact, those are worse, because they often remind me of programs/festivals/events!) In both cases, my brain tends to tune out and I don't listen to what people are saying. I never made the association with satsang & festivals before I found this site, by the way - I'd forgotten a lot of my premie experiences.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 20:34:22 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: hypnosis experience
Message:
Katie, I used to have trouble going to ACA groups too, back in the 80s, when I used to go regularly, because they felt too much like organized religion, and I was still shell-shocked from my days in DLM. Especially the part at the end where everyone would hold hands and say the serenity prayer, it just felt too familiar, and for a very long time I would just stand there and not say anything. Eventually I got over it, though. For many years I was extremely gun-shy of anything that smacked of organized religion or group spirituality of any type. Have slowly returned to a normal state, where I'm not too freaked out by things like that, but it's taken many years.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 20:37:17 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: hypnosis experience
Message:
Katie:

TD made a comment about 'selective memory loss' among the exes. Many details have come back to me as a result of talking to people at the site. Some things I recall very clearly, for some reason. Like being obsessed with making sourdough bread in the Argyle in L.A. I think that was about self sufficiency or something. Hitchhiking back from the beach with this French/Russian premie because we didn't have 25 cents for the bus. But I don't remember a lot of things I should, especially what it felt like. I don't remember being as naive as those folks in LOTU, but I was probably worse. I vaguely remember staying in Gymnasiums and sleeping on the floor on some tour or other, but don't recall what it was about. I must have been attending satsang at that time, but don't recall that either. It's just V-E-R-Y H-A-Z-Y. All the bus trips have become THE SAME bus trip. I get the impression I might have something to be angry about in all this if I could just remember it. But the truth is, it seems like a vacation that just went by too quickly. The AGE OF DARKNESS descended right after I left, I gather.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 21:45:41 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I have similar reactions..
Message:
I have not had experience with 12 step programs but I am certain I would have the same unease in that sort of group. I do have other similar reactions though.

Concerts with large crowds are awful for me. Amusingly, I once went to a Lyle Lovett concert in which we had third row seats. My husband teased me incessantly about how very very pleased I was with these seats...I only thought about why I would be so extrordinarily pleased upon reading your post! Not only was I of high status to sit so close to dear Lyle but I also had the throngs of Lovettees behind my back out of view.

The type of conferences I attend, nursing and medical,are so different they don't trigger it for me.

But any time I have had occaision to visit a church I feel a tremendous desire to leave. Anything with group spiritual religous overtones no matter how mainline or mild.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 22:08:06 (EST)
From: petebear
Email: petebear@ozemail.com.au
To: g's mom
Subject: hypnosis experience
Message:
Similar and different.

About 1 year post regular meditation and satsang.

I was having anxiety problems about a person who was stalking me.

I went to a counsellor who taught me to do self-hypnosis. It was all about relaxing.

As I did the procedure I became more and more 'blissed out' really profoundly deeply delighted, like when I had had profound meditative experiences.

The shock from this was that such a simple, regularly used (in the world of counselling) process could deliver to me such a wonderful experience. It directly challenged the idea that it all came from 'his' grace and via the knowledge.

It also showed how easy it is to generate a powerful experience in naive people and give the 'approved' explanation of the origin of the experience.

I'm currently reading a book that equates hypnosis, psychotherapy and religion as all very similar experiences. Only just begun it so nothing profound at present.

Cheers

Peter Howie
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 22:56:19 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: petebear
Subject: That old Felix Mesmer.
Message:
Peter:

That's very interesting. In Christian Science (the quintessential new age religion) hypnosis. 'animal magnetism' (a 19th century term for hypnosis), mesmerism, or AMS (aggressive mental suggestion) are all considered synonyms for the Devil, or Satan. Since I was only able to quit smoking through hypnosis my mother thinks I've made a pact with the Devil.

The actual experience of being hypnotized was very different, however. It felt like the origin of the smoking crave was in a locked room inside me, where I was alone, like in solitary confinement. Under hypnosis it was like someone walked into that room and joined me, taking my hand. The craving to smoke was a way of appeasing that part of me that was isolated and alone. Sending someone into that room broke the spell.

I realize that's a very strange way to describe the experience, but I was really never 'under' at any time, as far as I can tell. I was given the tape of the session, and listened to it a number of times. There was no difference between the tape and my memory. Perhaps there was some suggestion on the tape that created that illusion, but if so it completely escaped me. I can see how one might regard it as similar to Knowledge.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 12:24:12 (EST)
From: G-s mom
Email: None
To: all
Subject: I am still on mailing list
Message:
I have often thought I wanted to write and say please stop sending this. I also wonder how they get my address. My ex husband I suspect. But I just got a weird mailing about all sorts of 'events' I was reading how some wanted to attend one so if you don't get this stuff yourselves I can give you the info. It really is written in such a way as it is sort of mysterious and inscrutable. Gives me the heebeejeebees.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 13:45:39 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: G-s mom
Subject: I am still on mailing list
Message:
G's mom, might be a good idea to stay on the list, if you can stand it, that way you can channel to the site any of the 'official' info that may be of interest. Consider it a 'service'!
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:40:35 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: slave of doubt
Message:
she said it gives her the heebeejeebees, Joy. give the poor woman a break.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:49:59 (EST)
From: gsmom
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: I am still on mailing list
Message:
if someone else wants this stuff i would be happy to forward it. If the powers that be here already get it then i may take myself off the list if possible. I would consider it a good deed if sending it to Jim or someone would be of help.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:47:03 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: gsmom
Subject: I am still on mailing list
Message:
I am still on the mailing list, too. I have forwarded some stuff to Brian in the past. You may want to email him and see if he is interested when you receive something. He may or may not, I don't know for sure. I get the feeling that red heart just doesn't want this site to receive any more information, which is understandable given his/her feelings about M. But Gail you aren't in a cult anymore. You don't have to take my suggestions or those of red heart either. It's your call to do what you want, as I'm sure you already know.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:49:24 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: oops, wrong g name
Message:
oops! I typed 'Gail' instead of 'g's mom.' I knew who I was talking to though. Sorry :) VP
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:30:21 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: G-s mom
Subject: use the return address
Message:
have you considered sending a note to the return address to advise them that you don't want any more mail?
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:44:40 (EST)
From: gs mom
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: use the return address
Message:
yes.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:23:22 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Fresh Thoughts
Message:
No, this isn't an ad for Scott's new scathingly brilliant volume, Fresh Thoughts. It's just a mundane little observation I'm compelled to make because I'm in my mind. RH said:

Maharaji has explained again and again that this experience and this dynamic of Knowledge/Student/Master cannot be understood by the intellect. This does not mean that the intellect is not a tool used by both Student and Master; it simply means that what the Master is teaching is something much bigger than intellect can contain. It must be experienced in order to be understood. And it cannot be experienced without a number of other dynamics, such as openness, inner thirst, listening, practicing, participation, effort, sincerity, trust (in oneself), and more. it is not for everyone, and it is not for everyone.

Boy does M ever exploit this beyond-the-mind thing. The notion itself lends itself to several distinct meanings:

1) Something fully inconceivable to one who's never experienced it before. If I told you that there was an experience code-named '2496' you'd be unable to safely imagine anything. There's nothing in either the name or description (here, non-existent) to suggest an image. That says nothing of the conceivability of '2496' AFTER its been experienced or even after a better description, or at least SOME description, has been offered. If you don't know what the word 'mango' means, and no one even tells you its a fruit (assuming you know what 'fruit' means), the taste of a mango would, in that sense, be inconceivable.

2) Something specifically inconceivable to one who's never experienced it before. If someone told you about a fruit called 'mango' you couldn't know its unique flavour without tasting it. Granted, you'd know that, as a fruit, it wouldn't taste like dirt. You just wouldn't have the specific experience. But once you did taste a mango, you'd have no problem conceiving the taste.
(I haven't had a mango for months and I think I'm doing a pretty good job of remembering the flavour as I type).

3) Something that one could experience and remember but whose memory was vague and untrustworthy. Some drugs are like that. Their memory is harder to clearly summons than other expereiences that do not have such direct impact on our brains but, rather, are processed through our normal sensory perceptions. One has to get back into the experience to properly remember it. Of course, knowing that, one's able to at least conceive of the experience, hopefully making allowances for the inability to do so clearly.

4) Something that, supposedly, is SO subtle, or magical, or what have you that, not only can one not conceive of it beforehand but one can't remember anything of it afterwards. All that comes to mind here is that C. S. Lewis Narnia book, I think it's Prince Caspian, where the kidnapped prince is bewitched into forgetting his true identity in the daytime although he remembers each night and fights for his freedom. I don't know of any experience in the real world that doesn't leave at least SOME memory traces in the brain. But it does make for a good story.

5) I guess the next level of inconceivability that I can conceive of would be an expereience that not only was unimaginable in advance and impossible to recall but was even impossible to think about as it occurs. Now there you're talking truly 'beyond the intellect'. I guess if you took a rock to a movie, this might be the level on which the rock 'experienced' the show. On the other hand, it does seem to turn the word 'experience' on its head.

Anyway, I wonder what Maharaji means when he says his expereience is beyond the mind. Apparently, he used to mean it was like a mango. You just couldn't understand the flavour without tasting it. However, once you tasted it, you'd certainly know how great it was and could, if the spirit moved you, make a career telling others all about it.

Now, however, it sounds like Maharaji is trying to get his premies to treat the experience as something that it is actually impossible to recall (hence, anyone even momentarily 'in their mind' no longer 'knows' what Maharaji's all about and thus can't comment. Of course the moment you start commenting you're in your mind. Classic 'Catch 22'.)

Maybe that's why he has so preciously removed all the words that one might otherwise think implied some recognition of the experience. 'Meditation' becomes 'practise', 'knowledge' becomes 'practise' (does one 'practise one's practise'?), 'light' becomes 'revolution number 9' or something like that. Maharaji keeps the name but is not a 'guru' and, most importantly of all, this is no 'religion'. How could it be? There aren't even any 'beliefs' or 'concepts'.

Yeah, so it sounds like Maharaji is trying to make his premies think of themselves as Prince Caspians (or whoever the kid was). He wants them to think of the 'experience' (my most hated premie word) as something they can think about only to the extent that they remember that they CAN'T think about it. Is that 'can't as in unable or can't as in not allowed? Well, that question itself is getting perilously close to the line, eh premies? Best not even think about it.

(I wrote this way too early in the morning. I'm sure I got some tenses wrong and maybe even left out a few categories of 'inconconceivability'. But, hey, you get the idea.)
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:37:49 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fresh Thoughts
Message:
i get the feeling you already know the answers to your questions even as you write them, but the problem is really that you don't accept. and maybe you had an experience before, and that is something which you also don't accept. but one thing is for sure, you have so much enthusiasm, if you were to direct it to really understanding, and opening up to what you didn't grasp before, if you could do that, this time without the repressions and guilts and fears, you could really progress. you already think about Maharaji so much. is a shame to waste all that focus on cold analysis when you could use it to find real satisfaction and fulfillment. it would take a lot of humility, but i bet you could do it.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 18:08:21 (EST)
From: redheart
Email: rh@outerspace.com
To: red heart
Subject: Fresh Thoughts
Message:
i bet if i wasn't so obnoxious i would make more sense but i write in such an annoying way that i am hard to take but i am so much happier than everybody who isnt in a personality cult that it is worth it to sound like i have a lobotomy
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 21:57:10 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: lotus.feet@satpal.com
To: red heart
Subject: Fresh Thoughts
Message:
Freed from all bondage I sit at the feet of by beloved. Oh deluded one, you think you follow the true master yet you know not the meaning of the word. For He transcends all the three worlds. His very name brings forth joy and gladness to my heart. O true One, O mercifull One who has saved me from an ocean of suffering, I bow my head to your lotus feet. Unimaginable is your glory, why, even the Angels of Heaven do beg to come down to Earth to become dust at your feet. Oh my Maharaji, thou art a gift unto this world, a gift we deserveth not. Verily I say unto you, one who has not prostrated before His divine form is lost in an ocean of darkness.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 07:12:56 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Fresh Thoughts
Message:
Freed from all bondage I sit at the feet of by beloved.

Sorry to see that like me, you have a nasty cold.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 09:12:47 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Fresh Thoughts
Message:
Anon:

You are just too British. By feelig aboud thad is sibilar.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 04:47:18 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: red heat
Subject: Hand up skirt....
Message:
Y'know reddy,

I used to use the same technique on girls at about the age of fourteen.

'Aw c'mon, you know you really want to, it's not for me y'know, you'll really like it once you try it'

Just say no, Jim.

Rich
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 08:42:31 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fresh Thoughts
Message:
Hi Jim - I'm e-mailing you today. by the way, what country are you writing from?

I've got a couple of M tapes, that, when I listened to again, i realised that half the time M is just gabbling on about nothing in particular. And where did he learn to use that soft romantic hollywood way of talking? Watching too many Marylin Monroe movies, interspersed with a good dose of Adolf Hitler voice mimicry.
No wonder we all used to think 'didn't understand that, but I'm sure it means something'.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 12:46:30 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Fresh Thoughts
Message:
And where did he learn to use that soft romantic hollywood way of talking? Watching too many Marylin Monroe movies, interspersed with a good dose of Adolf Hitler voice

Good comparison! I think someone coached him, or I will even say he may have figured out(?) - how to use that melodic cadence. He'll start out normal, raise it up to a rather intense volume, then , when he discusses the 'beauty, the wonder, the pure simple breathe, .. it drops, so low to a whisper so soft...
Then normal. Repeat again and again. Sort of like sex. Or hypnosis.
It used to bug the hell out of me when I was playing cassettes on
my not so great car stereo. But it sure makes the premies get off
at the events.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 21:08:34 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: changes
Message:
Our brains are wired to notice changes in how something is much more than the pure quality of how it is. So M is just using the volume changes to keep people noticing (=awake). The same effect is used a lot in classical music, which is also annoying to listen to on a not-so-good car stereo for the same reason.

Had an M video running in the other room last week and what the pitches and cadences (couldn't hear words) actually made me think of was Saturday morning cartoons.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 21:15:53 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: changes
Message:
Had an M video running in the other room last week and wha the pitches and cadences (couldn't hear words) actually made
me think of was Saturday morning cartoons.


Oh God!! That is true. I never thought about it. I never liked
the noise of those Sat a.m. cartoons, both when I had kids and even when I was a kid and
liked the cartoons. They jangle the nerves.
A few premies have mentioned to me how 'melodic' M sounds when
he does that. Yeah, but Bullwinkle had the best plots,
without all the sound.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 11:48:52 (EST)
From: Woody
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fresh Thoughts
Message:
Jim,

Your thoughts are right on the money. I was married to a premie, and she refused to tell me about knowledge. She said it could not be explained. She also went on to tell me how BM was more important to her then me in a spirutal sense. Why I married this girl, I still don't know. But I am greatful for finding this site, and finally understanding about this cult, and how she tried to suck me into it
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 07:07:24 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fresh Thoughts
Message:
Jim I would like to comment here again about that bizarre little thing I remember clearly him saying on a video before I got knowledge. He said, if the light is faint (in other words not as bright as 1,000 suns)just consider that it has to travel a long way. What a long way it has to come. Something like that.

It's like he was saying we are travelling in a different dimension to see this light, or it is travelling to us.

Or else our channel is very faint because there is so much (worldly) interference these days (that's how I interpreted it).

But still it begs the question - why should this thing or place be affected in any way by anything physical or of this world. It is a bit like Narnia, I know what you mean.

Still thinking about it.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:12:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Still thinking
Message:
Judex,

That's pretty funny that Maharaji would say something like that. After all, to place an ultimate 'beyond the mind' experience, such as k is supposed to be, in such time/space structure is ludicrous. Thanks for pointing that out.

Judex,

I'm still expecting an answer from you about you know what. I've asked you a few times about what you meant when you said:

If you really wanted some action from Maharaji you would be doing more than just writing letters to Linda Gross. The way you are fooling yourself that what you are saying is legitimate is obvious in so many ways Jim. I don't give a shit what Joe or JW say. You're not even willing to try what others who think differently suggest.

(I added the last two sentences this time,not for the JW reference but to remind you that you're apparently talking about some suggestion I won't listen to.)

You earlier told me that you didn't want my to slice and dice your words and throw them back at you out of context. But Judex, isn't that what people ALWAYS say when they don't want to deal with their own words? The fact is you said this here and either it means something or you were just trying to piss me off. I think you DO owe me an explanation ESPECIALLY because I honestly don't know what you're talking about.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:10:27 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: to Jim
Message:
. I think you DO owe me an explanation ESPECIALLY because I honestly don't know what you're talking about
Jim would you like to discuss this via email? Here is my email address: judex@zip.com.au
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 03:37:12 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: to Jim - no email please
Message:
Jim - sorry I think my email's not working. Look I have thought about this. I can't think of anything to add. Agree or disagree, but I said what I said. I can't take it back, I can't change it, I may be right or wrong about it but it's done. I said something, if it has no meaning to you then let it go. I cant explain it any different to when I said it.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 05:47:30 (EST)
From: A current practictioner
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: practicing
Message:
I've been practicing knowledge since 1975. I don't have any anger issues (or otherwise) with Maharaji. What he gave to me back then I continue to benefit from. It is my own free will choice to dedicate or not to his work. I am not a fanatic type and I have always been independent in my choices in life. Don't you think it is time to heal old issues and anger? Life can be a very joyful and profound journey. Maharaji has been instrumental in showing me something very profound along the way. I will be forever grateful. As far as I am concerned, he is very human and therfore fallible, like us all. At the same time, he is a powerful being whom has helped many people. If you have any issue with him, I suggest that you look at yourself instead of blaming him.
Sincerely, A
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 06:14:03 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: A current practictioner
Subject: practicing
Message:
Here we go again. Another premie who's missed the point. Dear Practictioner (sic) if you didn't do as Maharaji asked and give your life to him, lock, stock and barrel then you really don't know what most of us are talking about.

Nobody is saying that meditation cannot have some benefits. It's all the other stuff which goes with the trip which we object to. I mean, I know some self improvement techniques which are very powerful. But I would give them to you for free and would not require you to regard me as a person worthy of your devotion or your money. And if you practised my techniques and benefitted, it would be because the techniques worked and NOT because I am some kind of Avataar or Godlike person.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 06:19:20 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: practicing
Message:
Yes I agree with Sir David. You need to read the introductory pages to this site to understand where generally speaking we are coming from. Once you have done that, why not enter the discussion at that level.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 08:47:56 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: Freedom@gtn.net
To: Premies
Subject: THIS IS A CULT!!!!!
Message:
This is a cult. The cult has gotten more bizarre over the years. Do you remember when MJ told us to call him on the 900 number to hear his satsang every day? I did call. After a while, he stopped changing the message even every month. Eventually it was just dead at the other end. You get the idea. CALL THE LORD EVERY DAY.

Speaking of Lord of the Universe, how is it that you aren’t in on the big secret. I am looking at an old 1971 album with MJ sitting on a big chair surrounded by flowers and a huge sign over his head which reads 'LORD OF THE UNIVERSE.'

How about when we were supposed to call the national number daily to find out if new events with MJ were announced (1989-90 or thereabouts). MJ told us to stop chit chatting with each other and call the number. He also made fun of us for talking to each other. (YOU KNOW, DIVIDE AND CONQUOR.) Once I called the contact person for London, Ontario to tell her the good news. She told me to never do this again. MJ wanted us to have our own experience by calling the voice message system. The next time a program was called, I didn't say anything. Our fair leader found out the day before and had to pay top dollar for her ticket. She never told me to keep my mouth shut again.

He said he had gotten rid of most of the ORGANIZATION. Now it's bigger than ever. VISIONS, ELAN VITAL and his RECORDING STUDIO are bringing in BIG BUCKS.

If there is no organization and networking, why is PADARTHANON coming back here (previously unscheduled) to talk to what's left of our community (6 people). After calling two of them about my doubts, I have been ex-communicated. By the way, I never told them what I wrote. How do they know? None of them has a computer because they are too poor supporting this fantasy.

By the way, premies, MJ is reading here. Why not tell him your real name. Maybe he'll give you some service to do, UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:08:35 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: The Uncult
Message:
if you think what it is a cult, you must have bananas for brains. try thinking clearly once in a while. i'll give you a clue. wait until you have calmed down, no anger or adrenalin racing through your veins, no paranoid anxieties, no panic attacks. just when you are feeling good, relaxed, calm. then at that time, think about it. you will clearly see that any 'movement' or 'group' which has an Open Door Policy (both to go in, go out and even to come back) is by DEFINITION most definitely NOT a cult.

let your heart be the decision maker. if you allow your fears and confusion and paranoia to be the decision maker in your life, you are in for some real devastation. i speak from experience!!! love yourself. following that direction you are pulled in when you are feeling that really, really good feeling inside. then you cannot go wrong.

let go. let go of the bad stuff. it is not the real 'you.' allow the real you to just be and just feel okay. it's alright. don't worry about decisions to be made or the million other fears and worries. give your self a break. i worry about you, dear.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:21:23 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: The Uncult
Message:
First you say to think clearly and use as the criteria, that there is an 'open door policy', to determine that maharaji isn't operating a cult. You're explaining that a person should use their mind to understand this.

Then you say to use your heart to make the decision. Which is it?

A cult is not determined by an 'open door' policy. It doesn't matter if the door open or closed. The pivotal factor is programming and brainwashing, and maharaji does both. Using your heart, at the expense of your mind, is a perfect example of the cult programming so typical of maharaji.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 12:19:52 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: The Uncut
Message:
Rick:

Fortunately there is either a bug in the program, or humans are not quite machines. Both, I guess.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:55:16 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: The Uncult
Message:
why get so stuck in the semantics, Rick? when my heart is pulled in a certain direction and in a meaningful way, my mind cannot understand it, but i - me - i can decide to do something to accommodate my heart. i then think of what i can do to be a proponent of those good feelings in my heart. is not so hard to understand, if you ever deal on a feeling level. if you don't ever follow your feelings then yes, it might be impossible for you to understand.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 11:52:21 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: The Uncult
Message:
Gail,
I hope this person is not getting to you with her passive aggressive tone.She is very confronted by what is said here.If she were as confident in the position she claims as her perspective she would not be here.The master who she claims to love has purportedly said that he doesn't care for the internet.If she respected him so much then how could she be interested in the net,let alone this forum.When I read her posts I understand why M wanted the premie guestbook shut down.His devotees can be emabarrassing for him.

What I've sensed her doing with you Gail is so symptomatic of classic cult behaviour and quite frankly I'm surprised because I've never seen premies fall into this behavior in such an obvious way: She sees someone(you) leaving the cult and has made it her mission to try and save you or bring you back in.I mean it's such a text book cult behavior but since she's the victim she can't even see what she's doing.Next thing you know,if she feels that you're beyond the point of possibly coming back to the cult she'll start insulting you personally(ooops....guess she already has with her 'bananas brain' remark).Lame,very lame.

Keep it up Red Heels,at the rate you're going you'll convince me that this may in fact be a cult and you may even lead me to becoming an Ex.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 12:16:53 (EST)
From: Sir Cheese-Whiz
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: bftb & Gail
Subject: The Uncult
Message:
Dear bftb; even in my most heady days as a premie in the ashram, giving satsang to the multitudes every eveing, I was never like our friend Red Heels/Heart. I notice her behavior is aggresive to the extreme. Now I used to know a lot of premies very well during the seventies and none of them had this agressive attitude like Red Heels. This makes me wonder what her motives are for posting here. She clearly does NOT want to make people feel good about Maharaji. Perhaps she is a he, who knows.

If I were a premie, I would not wish to be associated with such a characature as RH. In my opinion, she/he is working out some aggresive instinct to try to get at people here in some way. Whatever it is, it's not love and more likely something pretty wierd. Gail and anyone else: RH is pretty screwed up. It shows in her/his aggresive posts. Even Mili was human compared to this! But that's what RH wants perhaps. To be the centre of attention and try to hurt people here. It's aggression alright. I'm sure of it now.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 12:35:44 (EST)
From: Cheese-Whiz
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Sir Cheese-Whiz
Subject: Footnote
Message:
Actually I thought MIli was an OK guy. He was very human and good to 'talk' to. I hope to see him posting here again some day. Perhaps he's up in the mountains somewhere in Croatia.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:10:54 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Cheese-Whiz
Subject: Footnote
Message:
David:

Where is Istria? I've a hunch he might be around there. Just came to me in a dream.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 21:10:19 (EST)
From: Cheese Whiz
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Tale of Two Istrias
Message:
Scott; there's two places called Istria in Europe. The first one is probably the place you're thinking about. That is the area called Istria which is the part of western Croatia which juts out into the far north of the Adriatic Sea where it joins the Gulf of Venice, near Italy. That area looks hilly but not particularly mountainous.

The other Istria is an insignificant little town called Istria which is in eastern Romania near the Black Sea coast and about 200 miles east of Bucharest. There's not much there to get excited about. Did you really dream about Mili going to Istria? Or perhaps it was locked away in your memory somewhere.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 22:25:14 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Cheese Whiz
Subject: Tale of Two Istrias
Message:
David:

I'm afraid I can't divulge my true sources. It would lessen my mystique.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 22:48:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cheese-Whiz
Subject: Endnote
Message:
David,

This:

Actually I thought MIli was an OK guy. He was very human and good to 'talk' to.

is ridiculous. Mili was a boor and far from good to talk to.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 04:38:14 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jim
Subject: Endnote
Message:
I didn't expect you'd agree. But when Mili and I got past the posturing and sabre rattling, I found him an OK guy. His experience of Maharaji was different to mine. This he did agree on and he did say that he appreciated how I felt about things. I considered this a worthwile and honest response, coming from a Haharaji lover.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 12:47:52 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Sir Cheese-Whiz
Subject: agree
Message:
I must say I agree with what you say about my impressions of RH. The only premies I knew back then that would communicate in the manner she does would be described as 'bongo' or perhaps 'fringe' by the other premies.

RH, obviously I do not know you, but this is the impression I get from what you type. For all I know you hang out with Rawat and he watches over your shoulder as you type.( If so is he into the unusual sex practices you allude to? )I think he is not your bud as if he were you would not have been so defensive when I stated my opinion that you were ignoring, purposefully, his agya. You would have instead replied 'if you only knew honey'.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:08:21 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: me and Maharaji at the piano
Message:
i love that image of him over my shoulder at the keyboard. i pick that one! yes, definitely. and definitely he is my bud. not a question about that. and no, am not a fringe person.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:12:58 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: me and Maharaji at the piano
Message:
No the computer silly! I knew you would like it...I would have loved in in my premie days. Now it nauseates me.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:15:19 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: RH
Subject: if you only knew honey...
Message:
By the way...that was the response i would have found most amusing . Missed your chance....
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 19:58:00 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: It's magical
Message:
RH:

You know, you've helped me realize that all of those signs that say 'Thankyou for not smoking.' are directed at Scott. I've come to apprehend that the whole city... no, the whole country, appreciates me immensely. I feel warm all over.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:03:53 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Sir Cheese-Whiz
Subject: The Uncult
Message:
wow. sure thing cheeze-whiz. i'm so mean i eat nails for breakfast!
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:00:04 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: The Uncult
Message:
bftb, you are so full of it. anyone who doesn't want to read my posts has only to press a key on the keyboard, including you. and just because Maharaji doesn't care for the Internet doesn't mean i have to be some zombie that goes, 'Oh, duh, he doesn't like it so i better not do it either' for no reason other than that he said that. I do NOT go by what he says that I don't understand, especially if it has nothing to do with this path of Knowledge. maybe he doesn't like Thai curry either. doesn't mean i'm gonna stop eating it. puleeez.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 18:48:20 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: The Uncult
Message:
OOOOOHH!I love it when you're nasty to me.You oughta try switching because you'd probably enjoy being on top.You could even role play and tell the guy to pretend he's an ex-premie while you give him what he deserves.

Allright spiked heels,why don't you just admit it: You're not even a premie!No way mistress,I just don't believe it anymore.

Now all of a sudden YOU'RE going to decide things?Who's giving the orders here anyway?You pick and choose which of your masters wishes you'll obey?

Nope,not a premie.You're a something,but probably not a premie.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 12:37:46 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: The Uncult
Message:
It' easy. shehe is here to inspire me to write stories. I had to stop my self from making 'exotica' a lot more, well, exotic.
And, I am the spiked 5' heels.
She just has these conservative pumps, nice and proper 1.5 inch, but of course designer and expensive, mind you, Evan Picone I would suspect.
Let's not give himher all that much credit. The rest of us ladies are much better at being mean and nasty.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 14:52:12 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: music album
Message:
> I am looking at an old 1971 album with MJ sitting on a big chair surrounded by flowers and a huge sign over his head which reads 'LORD OF THE UNIVERSE.'

Do you want to sell that album for some decent $$$?
I lost my copy quite a while back.
I remember enjoying the band in London in 1972.

CD
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 15:16:22 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: auction
Message:
CD,

I'll sell my copy for the right price. How about $1,000? It's in excellent shape AND I'll throw in the Millenium commemorative issue of And it is Divine. Plus, the money'll go to agood place, trust me.

Jim

Launched the CD communication Project in '98. (Funded through various beenefits and fund drives).
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:01:52 (EST)
From: jethro
Email: cadbury@compuserve.com
To: CD
Subject: music album
Message:
I have 'the Apostles' album with songs such as 'lila' and 'at the feet of the master' and prempal laughing.
I also have recordings of shri hans singing and prempal singing a bajan...how much do you offer?

You can have it for $5000 cash.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:07:00 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: jethro
Subject: music album
Message:
Jethro,

Let's trade copies first before we dump these on devotees, okay?
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:36:31 (EST)
From: jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: music album
Message:
This will be a real test of their devotion. If they can pay $5000 without a flinch then they are true devotees.

I know at one time I would have paid that amount for hansji and prempal singing.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:47:00 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: jethro
Subject: music album
Message:
The proposals offered by you and Jim indicate where your characters have wandered to these days.
The barren mirage of the over-rational mindscape.

The beauty and honesty of the old premie songs may still motivate a hopeful feeling in your lives some day. So it is best that you hang on to them.

Cheers,
CD
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 19:07:42 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: music album
Message:
What was wrong with the proposals?
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 21:16:40 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: music album
Message:
>What was wrong with the proposals?

Nothing wrong, unless there is not a match with your true motives and what will actually be achieved.

You might want to reevaluate the market segment that you are trying to reach.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:21:00 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: practicing w/o the Master
Message:
yes, david, we all know you will stay alive if you eat food and drink water and find some newspapers to roll up in when it gets cold at night.

but the quality cannot be compared to when you take baths regularly. the smell is so much nicer for one thing. practicing the techniques of Knowledge without the guidance of regularly listening to the Master leaves you unwashed.

the heart and mind are like in two different worlds. they cannot really understand each other, never will. and yet when we listen to the Master's words, the mind becomes cleansed and the heart filled. and at least for those moments, clarity comes in. beautiful clarity, like giving the brain a real tune-up, lube job, cleaning the engine, all that good stuff.

you can drive your gas on just gas for a while. but if you don't give it some really thorough maintenance, it just ain't gonna get very far, baby. it cannot. sorry, but that's just the way it is. and if you would relax a little you might realize that that really isn't so bad.

i listen to Maharaji a lot and take heed to his advice. this has made the most high quality, top notch, excellent and luxurious difference in my life. yep, he's the Man and he's given me Inner Luxury of real Peace, real Love, real Contentment and Fulfillment. There is nothing that can compare, and never could just practicing the techniques even begin to compare. You've got some of the ingredients for the cake, babe, but you ain't got no cake. I want cake!!

I'm going to go practice now. Am feeling that delicious thirst.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 11:21:27 (EST)
From: Sir Cheese-Whiz
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: red heart
Subject: practicing w/o the Master
Message:
I'm glad I'm not like you.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:44:41 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Sir Cheese-Whiz
Subject: practicing w/o the Master
Message:
haha. so this is your alter ego? Cheese Whiz? and i'm glad i don't eat you! hate synthetic processed cheeses.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 21:37:23 (EST)
From: Cheese Whiz
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: red heart
Subject: Wrong - guess again
Message:
You're not as bright as you make out you are.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 06:19:14 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: purple heart
Subject: practicing w/o the Master
Message:
Keep taking those pills
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 13:23:43 (EST)
From: A /ACurrent Practictioner
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: practicing
Message:
Even with all the years that I have been around (and yes, I did the Ashram-thing once, too), I still don't feel that I have to be some sort of vacuous, passive devotee. I am strong, independent, and empowered. I know who I am and still I benefit from the knowledge and the teacher's presence. I consider myself profoundly fortunate to be so loved by the universe (God, creator, whatever name you give it), to have this level of support and inspiration in my life. Whats more, I'm not angry with Maharaji. I'm appriciative of his work just like I might be of any one else's good work in this world.
A.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 13:54:51 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: A /ACurrent Practictioner
Subject: practicing
Message:
What a deceptive post.

A wrote: Even with all the years that I have been around (and yes, I did the Ashram-thing once, too), I still don't feel that I have to be some sort of vacuous, passive devotee.

Why don't you feel that you have to be passive? Didn't you agree to surrender the reigns of your life to maharaji in the knowledge session? Your reasoning sounds vacuous.

In further idiocy, A wrote: I know who I am and still I benefit from the knowledge and the teacher's presence. I consider myself profoundly fortunate to be so loved by the universe (God, creator, whatever name you give it), to have this level of support and inspiration in my life.

'I know who I am' doesn't mean anything! Do you mean you don't try to 'rise above your emotions' like the other disconnected premies?

Why do you call maharaji 'teacher? Didn't maharaji say he was the Lord? What does that mean... 'presence'? What is maharaji's presence?

And why are you 'profoundly fortunate to be so loved to have this level of support and inspiration in your life'? Why are you so loved? Are you more loved than others? And if not, what's so fortunate about it? If you're loved the same as others, that would make it ordinary despite how great your claims are.

Maharaji's work is useless. It has virtually no effect on the world except to distract people from helping and loving each other and become self-absorbed in imaginary bliss.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 21:11:04 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: practice what
Message:
>Why don't you feel that you have to be passive? Didn't you agree to surrender the reigns of your life to maharaji in the knowledge session?

I agreed to give Knowledge a chance and go from there.

Knowledge is focusing on an experience, not an idea or belief.
If that experience is not beneficial then there is a problem.
My conclusion is that the experience is a source of peace and inspiration.
Therefor I don't have a problem with M giving talks which inspire people to give that experience a higher priority in their life.
The experience becomes more important but not the only thing in ones life which is important.

Having a teacher does not force the student to be passive.

Its back to that old idea, that I am sure you remember, of what is ultimately the 'master' in our lives.

CD
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 22:17:51 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: promised what?!
Message:
Chris - you wrote, regarding your knowledge session:

I agreed to give Knowledge a chance and go from there.

You got Knowledge in 1972 and so did I. We both made promises IN the knowledge session to do a LOT more than that. If you are talking about later knowledge reviews, fine. Otherwise, you just don't remember.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 23:34:18 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: promised what?!
Message:
Katie:and CD:

I vaguely recall making a commitment something like the one that CD describes. I don't remember exactly when, or under what circumstances. What I do remember is making the statement to commit all of my heart, soul and mind to the practice of Knowledge and to Maharj Ji without looking back and without regret. That was on February 14, 1974 in San Francisco, with Rajeshwar. I remember the commitment because I immediately had the thought 'What if I change my mind? What if I fall short? Then I'll be really fucked!' But, I just pranamed and said the words. That was at the beginning of the session, and we made a promise not to reveal the techniques at the same time. The whole session took nine hours. Whew!

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 08:07:24 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: promised what?!
Message:
Scott - I cannot remember the exact vows we took in the knowledge session (perhaps someone here can refresh my memory), but I know that I said them without a qualm. I was 16 years old so that probably had a lot to do with the qualmless part. I KNOW that we didn't say we'd give knowledge 'a chance'. We promised to practice it and to be devoted to Maharaji.

That's why I think Chris is inaccurate here, since he got knowledge when I did. Maybe NOW when you go to a knowledge review, M allows you to retract those vows. Not sure since I've never been to one.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 09:51:29 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: promised what?!
Message:
Dear Katie and Scott,
I received K in 1973, in Brooklyn, NY and have no clue as to which mahatma, it always amazes me that many here remember. They were forigen names and just didn't stick in my mind for a moment. I am sure we had to agree to certain things, which have been stated here before but I didn't go through any struggle to receive K, if they had been weeding people out I should have been the first to go. I heard about K from the man who became Jessica's dad. It was hearing that this human body had the capablity to experience the meditation that got me. I KNOW what ever was said about worshiping BM or any of that heavy stuff didn't really hit me. Growing up Catholic, maybe, gave me an ability to gloss over all that opressive religiousity. I was happy to just yes them at the K session to get to the 'meat' of why I was there. I have never regretted my reaction or lack there of to the intense stuff or that I learned K and I thank only that mahatma for it.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:05:55 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: promised what?!
Message:
Hi Robyn -
The first time I went to a Catholic church service, I was AMAZED at some of the responses, etc. you had to say - like the Apostle's creed, etc. My boyfriend was repeating all this stuff along with everyone else in the church, and I asked him how he could say it, and he said he had been saying it all his life and didn't even think about what the words meant anymore.

By the way, we HAD to say those vows or we couldn't get Knowledge. (Back then, anyway!)
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:32:20 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: promised what?!
Message:
Dear Katie,
EXACTLY!
Love,
Robyn
There is an email to you buzzing round my brain.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 00:11:25 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: practice what
Message:
I've never met a premie before who wasn't required to make vows in the Knowledge Session that included, 'I surrender the reigns of my life to Guru Maharaj Ji.'
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 08:47:44 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: all
Subject: ?? for new prems or Mr. Ex
Message:
'I've never met a premie before who wasn't required to make vows in the Knowledge Session that included, 'I surrender the reigns of my life to Guru Maharaj Ji.''

Rick said the above and I know that at one time you had to say this. Is this still applicable today or has this changed with Knowledge Lite?
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 15:11:51 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: ?? for new prems or Mr. Ex
Message:
I've never met a premie before who wasn't required to make vows in the Knowledge Session that included, 'I surrender the reigns of my life to Guru Maharaj Ji.''

Rick said the above and I know that at one time you had to say this. Is this still applicable today or has this changed with Knowledge Lite?


VP,
Just to let you know, we didn't do that in our Knowledge session. What discussions lately are reminding me of is how when I joined this Forum I was pretty appalled to find out how much he is covering up/has changed in current times . You see from TD's Journeys more what it is like now. It is different on the official line - but almost subconsciously you get the really religious material from the 'old' premies and from 'special' videos eg the ones you listen to just before receiving knowledge.

For instance it is obvious when yuo ask for Knowledge that the instructor is going to give it to people who are not just going to experiment with it. I vowed when I asked for it that I would practice it every day for the rest of my life (I said that to the Instructor when asking for Knowledge, not in the session). In the session after receiving knowledge I said to M that knowledge had changed my life. He paused and then said 'for the better, I hope'. (joke)

Okay so I just want to add that finding out about more about Knowledge/Knowledge Lite was quite sobering for me. It helped me to 'snap out of it' when people share the full extent of what knowledge really is - before it began to be tailored to the next marketplace.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 23:38:34 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: informative, Judex
Message:
Thanks, Judex. That was a very informative post. I agree that things have changed so much, but so many premies deny that anything has changed. Nice to hear the truth from someone who was there recently.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 08:11:48 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: informative, Judex
Message:
What VP said!

Seriously, Judex, your input is invaluable here because of your recent experience. Thanks!
Katie
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 08:21:53 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: CD
Subject: practice what
Message:
I agreed to give Knowledge a chance and go from there.

I'd be fascinated to learn which mahatma you received Knowledge from, Chris. Who was offering 'Knowledge Lite' back then??

I consider your statement to be a pure lie. Do you actually believe this, or does it help to shift your memories around until they line up with Maharaji's newest position on reality in order to continue to consider him your 'Master'?
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 13:16:09 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: practice what
Message:
Prakash Bai, London 1972
Don't eat meat or take alchohol or drugs for 1 week at least before the K session.
Make a strong commitment to practice the Knowledge and follow the advice of the master.

Ever seen the Karate Kid movie?
The kid had to make a commitment to paint the fence a certain way to get the benefit.
He did it, but didn't understand the point and wasn't too happy.
Eventually the wisdom of that excercise manifested practical results for him.

For the last 20 years I have continually heard M say that practicing K is the fundamental thing.
He speaks about giving the remembrance of the fundamental importance of human life the highest priority.
He also talks about the fact that the inner experience is the thing that human beings around the world truely have in common.
We look different and have different ideas, beliefs and schedules, but we truely are all human beings.
From my point of view he gives great advice.

The ultimate value of K and M is the experience.
Sure, everybody tries to analyze it.

CD
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 16:54:07 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Chris, a question.
Message:
Chris:

RE: For the last 20 years I have continually heard M say that practicing K is the fundamental thing.
He speaks about giving the remembrance of the fundamental importance of human life the highest priority.
He also talks about the fact that the inner experience is the thing that human beings around the world truely have in common.
We look different and have different ideas, beliefs and schedules, but we truely are all human beings.
From my point of view he gives great advice.


I'm not knocking what you are saying, but am just curious from a human standpoint. What is there about that statement that would lead to the conclusion that M has any special claim on you, or that he is linked with that inner experience in any special way? It's problematic for me because 1. M said one thing about his purpose, and later said something else, (indicating that he's probably just a garden variety human being) and 2. the experiments by David Lane indicate that anyone who receives these techniques has pretty much the same experience, no matter who gives them, and 3. Frederick Turner's recapitulation of experiments in human cognition verify that knowledge-like experiences are just a result of some universal human hardwiring. We are all predisposed to this experience, either by the design of a creator or a result of evolution (who knows?).

As for me, I just said: 'Well, he made up a story about what he was up to and there's nothing special about him anyway. Whether Knowledge is grace, or just a predispositon of my neural network, I've no reason to believe it's connected with him in any way save the fact that someone told him and he told me.' At that point I just threw up my arms and said 'Why am I so concerned about who or what Guru Maharaj Ji is, or claims to be. It clearly doesn't matter at all.'

I mean, honestly Chris, doesn't it bother you that he just punted in the mid-seventies? Why would you devote your life to someone like that? I'm just curious in case I've made the wrong decision and there's something I haven't thought of?

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 18:39:16 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Chris, a question.
Message:
Scott,

I've sent you a private email regarding your questions.

CD
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 02:39:14 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: practice what
Message:
CD, You can pick and choose certain statements that sound like truth from M. I think that premies selectively and perhaps unconsciously store the parts that are meaningful to them and skip the rest...the parts of his message that either don't make sense or clearly indicate his inauthenticity as Lord and Master.
Carol
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 14:50:53 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: New Vows to MJ
Message:
1. Give K a fair chance. (the rest of your life)

2. Do not reveal the techniques to anyone. (let others come through the same process you did)

3. Keep in touch. (Go to the videos, participate, attend programs)
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 08:15:43 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: New Vows to MJ
Message:
Thanks, Gail. I already said this to Judex, but it applies to you as well: your input is invaluable because of your recent experience.

I am curious to know what happened to the 'old vows', which you probably took these when you received Knowledge. Did they just get automatically superseded by the new vows? I assume that neither M or the instructors ever discussed the difference.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 06:29:14 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: practicing
Message:
well said Rick. Also, the way I skipped a word when I first read your post gave another interesting thought - if someone was more loved than others, that would be unfortunate, because who wants to live in a world like that?

I keep thinking of that Frog and Toad book I had when my daughter was a young child. It was a significant book obviously. It was given to me by a drug grower and his girlfriend, 2 volvo-driving, actually fairly nice people who didn't use drugs themselves and who were kind of nice to me when I was hanging out for dope.

I stayed the night at their house. He told me a story about how he used to go and meditate on the water's edge at dawn. One morning he was disrupted by a noise. It was a bunch of children throwing fish at him, saying 'get off it!!'. That was his story for me. I still don't think I understand it but I had an experience jsut like that visiting an ashram, from the ashram children. Life has so many paradoxes doesn't it. Imagine a drug grower, the one who profits from it, trying to help me, an addicted person.

Anyway he and his girlfriend gave me this Frog and Toad book. Later it was borrowed and never returned by my aunt, who loved it. There is one story where Frog goes on the stage. He keeps getting bigger and bigger, and as he does Toad gets smaller and smaller. I must find that book again.

Sorry for the long outpouring. Thanks for you short & sweet post.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:37:28 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Judex
Subject: practicing
Message:
Dear Judex,
My girls had/have that book! I wonder if there was more than one as I don't remember that story about the stage.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:19:55 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: A /ACurrent Practictioner
Subject: practicing
Message:
I can understand feeling that way about someone. Just not about Maharaji. Around 1982 or so I started to get this idea that people ought to walk their talk. The longer I hang around the more disparity I see there. That would just bug me too much to be able to feel the way you do. Doesn't it bug you at all?

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:51:47 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: A /ACurrent Practictioner
Subject: practicing
Message:
how refreshing to see your posts here, A/A. bravo, touche and all that.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 07:29:55 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: A /ACurrent Practictioner
Subject: practicing
Message:
I'm appriciative of his work

What work would that be exactly and, if he is a teacher, precisely what is it that he teaches that only he and nobody else can.

Regards

Richard
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 09:58:39 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Knowledge Practitioner
Subject: practicing
Message:
Thanks, A. Well said. You hit the nail on the head.

I think we can become very attached to the anger and loathe to let go of it. It's a funny thing. The very thing that keeps us from our own heart, that abuses and confuses us, we cling to it like it was our friend. But it is not.

Maharaji has shown me how to recognize the true friend in me, and he is definitely my best friend!! I don't think Maharaji really reads the posts on this site, but still I have to say: Thank you, Maharaji! I love you!
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:35:44 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: red heart
Subject: practicing
Message:
Dear Red Heart:

I am going to meditate today. It feels good. However, I can't buy into the rest of it anymore.

Why have my friends (my only friends) decided to shun me. Furthermore, why do I prefer premies to the rest of the inhabitants? If this is so open, what's the problem. If any of us had differing opinions about airlines, news, etc., there would be no problem.

Why all the secrecy about the past?

Why aren't we supposed to talk about any experiences with new people?

Why have I had to suppress so many ideas, etc. to continue on this path.

Rajashwar told us that the path of K and the devotee were narrow in the beginning and got wider with progress. That was how we could tell this from false paths. My path has gotten pretty narrow. The time and financial committment to this has been much greater than if I had joined the most hard core of other traditions.

Remember:
Give your all to Satguru,
Sacrifice your all to Satguru,
The sword that kills our problem life,
Oh jai dev, jai Satguru Dev.

I never could give my all, so I figured I was no damned good. People who gave much more of themselves have had the same feeling as I.

Give an older computer an unsolvable problem to solve. It will continue to work on that problem to the exclusion of all else. I think that's what I did.

I don't know anything anymore. I just know that I want myself back. I want to get rid of the shackles of fear and guilt. I do want to be free.

Luv,

Gail
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 13:01:14 (EST)
From: Sir David Gee-Wiz
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Gail
Subject: practicing
Message:
Gail: Don't you reckognise aggression when you see it. RH is using her/his own style of aggression here. See my post and bftb's posts above. And there is no path of knowledge. All those people who said there was have left it years ago.

In 1982-3 I was singlemindedly begging Maharaji to let me back into the ashram again and make me his surrendered devotee. As I tried to surrender, Maharaji's world just collapsed. It's all a myth dear girl. There's nothing to this trip. Meditation has been around for centuries. There's always gurus trying to capitolise on sincere people's experiences. ANd yet those gurus themselves don't meditate. In India, there's loads of millionaire gurus who con the sincere and the innocent. Maharaji is just one who has come to the west. But we'll send him packing back to the east again. You can be sure of that! And his aggresive RH type devotees can go with him. We don't want his mind-fucking trip HERE thank you very much!
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 16:49:03 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir David Gee-Wiz
Subject: practicing
Message:
David:

And there is no path of knowledge. All those people who said there was have left it years ago.

This is a misstatement, or do you mean something other than what I'm thinking? You don't mean all do you? Or do you mean they all got drunk and side-swiped a jeep? I may just need a shot or something.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:42:36 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir David Gee-Wiz
Subject: Sorry
Message:
David:

RE: ANd yet those gurus themselves don't meditate.

I can see that what you meant was that they (the learders) all got drunk and sideswiped the side of the barn. I guess I do need a shot.

-Scott Shot
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 13:50:58 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: practicing
Message:
read monroe's The Ultimate Journey
I think it will offer great perspective
on being outside BS's

enjoy meditating
you've certainly paid enough for the Techniques.

freedom is the greatest revenge
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 12:28:10 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: practicing
Message:
How do you mean 'best' and what's your definition of a friend?
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 02:56:58 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: practicing
Message:
Red heart,
I for one, have not felt anger towards M. I think he still believes all he has been told all his life about himself. But I still was able to realize that he is not what he or I was told! I have been loving God all along, and I believe the Great Spirit or God or higher power is very accepting about us directing our love, meant only for God, to the wrong source. In other words, I think that if you love God sincerely and treat others as you would have them treat you, and do no harm, you are doing fine. You will most likely discover the truth when you are open to the possibility that you may be wrong.
Carol
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:37:52 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: A current practictioner
Subject: practicing
Message:
If MJ is not the Lord, why do you need to go see him?
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 12:07:56 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: practicing
Message:
Good question, Gail. Got an answer for that, Red Heart or A? (Now, please bear in mind when replying that this is not supposed to be a cult.)
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 17:56:17 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Gail and Joy
Subject: the ''L'' word
Message:
Lord is a strange word because it's one i almost never use, so first let me look up the meaning. let's see... wow, the d. definition says Husband! sure you didn't mean that one...

hold on... hmmm 1-f has the lord as being ''one that has achieved mastery or that exercises leadership or great power in some area.'' In that definition yes, he is a lord!

2a. says God and 2b. says Jesus, so those are not Maharaji. not in my opinion. God is omnipresent and Mr. Rawat is a human being. Jesus passed on about 2000 years ago, so he's not him either.

and really all we are talking about here is a label. labels tend to create more blockages and problems than not. the minute we try to put something in a box, it's like freezing it. it's not real anymore, just some dead thing to hang around your neck.

i hate labels. people overuse them and use them as an easy way to make things look very black and white or something when really the fact is they don't know what to make of something or someone.

he definitely fits one out of about 13 definitions given for 'lord' in the dictionary. the lord word is not capitalized for the 1-f definition which fits with Maharaj; however the 2-a and 2-b in Websters Collegiate Tenth Edition do capitalize the word, because of the Judeo-Christian tradition of capitalizing anything referring to God and Jesus.

the proof is in the pudding, not the name of the pudding. i go to see him because he gives me many gifts, including inspiration, understanding, love, Knowledge and wisdom. he refreshes my soul every time. his effect on my life has been incredibly beautiful.

without his guidance i lose perspective and get hung up. i need him, and he knows people like me need him. and he is caring enough to continue giving and giving and giving. i love him, want him, need him. he helps me every single day.
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Date: Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 18:40:25 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: the ''L'' word
Message:
If you haven't given him the position of GOD, how does he help you every day. Do you pray to him. He told me to. He recently said it didn't matter who heard the prayer (God was a lot closer than you think). I have found that I had to help myself. I think I have been to see MJ over 300 times. Everytime, I had to come home and deal with the mess. Arti, which he recommended we sign every day, says he would be sword to the end our problem lives.

I had to work really hard just to clear up the financial problems MJ created for me. The push for money and travel and local support. I often avoided my other problems by relying on the GRACE to clear them up.

What has happened for you in these areas?

It just hasn't worked for me.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 01:14:04 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: the ''L'' word
Message:
Gail,

Isn't it interesting how, when confronted with the facts that BM held himself out as god incarnate for years, and still has devotional songs sung to him that clearly describe him as a deity, and people kiss his feet, even though he is just a human, that Red starts saying that labels are meaningless and Red doesn't like them. How could Red like them? They must be meaningless or BM has simply changed the ultimate truths to suit his need to cover over his past. That can't be admitted.

I would also say that what I feel makes what BM does a cult is 1)that he claims to offer a simplistic answer to ALL of your problems, 2)the premie world is VERY intolerant of questions or doubts about knowledge or BM, and 3) premies get to feel superior to others who don't see BM for who they believe he is. Those are the three elements of a cult as promulgated by the various cult-awareness organizations. And I think the fit BM's cult exactly.

As you know, item number 1 is a total lie, but items 2 and 3 work to prevent you from ever seeing that. Item number 3 is the major 'payoff' to being a premie. Given that premies aren't even supposed to talk to each other and people might get a group high at programs, I can see why people get stuck for so long. I know I did.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 04:15:55 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: to JW & bye for awhile
Message:
wait a minute. Maharaji has repeated it too many times for you not to get this, and if you didn't get it before, i'll tell you now, that he does say it over and over and over again that KNOWLEDGE IS NOT AN ANSWER TO YOUR PROBLEMS. MAHARAJI NEVER SAID IT WAS AN ANSWER TO YOUR PROBLEMS. MAHARAJI SAYS OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT IT IS MOST DEFINITELY -NOT- AN ANSWER TO YOUR PROBLEMS.
i, premie, also say to you that i understand what he is saying, and i can also see your resistance to believing it. you think that if only you could get rid of your problems then everything will be beautiful? sorry but no. because more problems take the place of the old problems.

problems are a maybe the only constant in this 'worldly ocean.' you've got 'em, i've got 'em, Maharaji has 'em, and anybody who tells me they don't have problems, they are not being honest.

That was your #1. Nix that reason, doesn't apply. If anybody expected Knowledge to be some problem-solving elixir and then got mad because her/his problems didn't disappear, that is their own creative reality.

They claimed to follow a Master, yet they never followed him. They never really listened to him. They listened to what they wanted to hear, but they did not listen and hear what he wanted to teach them. Emphatically so. Even though they had received Knowledge, even though they went to hear him, they really were following their own minds. i used to do it too. a lot. i still do it sometimes. i'm not trying to lay blame or guilt. that's not the point. am just calling a spade a spade.

this path is not as easy as it appears on first glance. you can't do it halfheartedly. it takes a lot of desire/thirst, focus/ effort, practice/meditation, listening/satsang, understanding and love.

well, guys, i'm outta here for a while. got things to do, people to see, and all that. but will check back around in after a while.

red heart

P.S. I didn't read the numbers of your list past #1. You can bring 'em up again later if you want. no doubt i'll be back in a few weeks.

*****
And I feel
Like I just got home
And I feel!

She's got a separate Universe
She's got a separate Universe
She's got a separate Universe

And I feel
And I feel
And I feel
Like I just got home
And I feel
*****
(love Madonna!)
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 11:27:46 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: to JW & bye for awhile
Message:
This post by red heart is absolute and utter bullshit. The hook of knowledge is simple... rise above the problems of the world into a state of mind that is beyond duality. Although not a solution to eliminate problems, it is a solution to eliminate the suffering caused by problems. It doesn't work. Denying one's feelings results in more severe suffering than there would have been in the first place.

Anyone want to guess red heart's IQ?
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 13:49:05 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: Bullshit red heart
Message:
KNOWLEDGE IS NOT AN ANSWER TO YOUR PROBLEMS. MAHARAJI NEVER SAID IT WAS AN ANSWER TO YOUR PROBLEMS. MAHARAJI SAYS OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT IT IS MOST DEFINITELY -NOT- AN ANSWER TO YOUR PROBLEMS.

This, of course is bullshit and you know it. What I have heard Maharaji say over and over is that knowledge will make you happy, that knowledge allows you to be in a 'so beautiful place' where there ARE no problems. That the experience is, in fact, the purpose of human life. And it is possible to be there ALL the time. So, you tell me, what in the hell does that mean if it isn't the answer to all you problems?

Sure, BM will make those stupid comments that knowledge won't make your laundry whiter and brighter, and you might still have a mean boss, etc., but that none of that will MATTER anymore, because you, the premie, are focused on that which is true, and beautiful. [Please excuse me while I vomit because this paragraph sounds like you wrote it.] The point I am making is that in areas where it really MATTERS, knowledge and devotion to HIM will make you happy and aleviate your problems.

Now, of course, we know that it doesn't work. Therefore, a premie has to either split from BM or blame himself or herself, as to why they aren't happy. This takes lots of effort, and because expressing doubt in not tolerated in the premie world, it's hard to even recognize that it isn't working. That's what makes all this a cult. And that's why when you get free from it one experiences intense relief.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 03:49:25 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: the ''L'' word
Message:
i take it you mean videos when you say over 300 times, coz otherwise i am going to have to kill you (out of envy!) haha. counting video events, i have listened to him at least 1000 times but really because of listening to him over the years and on tape etc. probably closer to 3000 times. you sound sincere, so i will do my best to give my honest answers.

okay, the God word really in my own personal definition is like the impersonal aspect of the Immortal, not something to pray to, because there's no actual personality there to even be listening. oh, I have prayed to God in my life anyway, just because it was like 'who else am I gonna pray to?' and all i knew, i needed help, so...but really never did a lot of praying. i don't do a lot of praying now either (the parent that 'raised' me was agnostic), and most Christian churches give ME the heebeejeebees, especially the Protestant ones, although I do believe Jesus is way cool and a Master even to this day somehow and somewhere...but I digress...

even though praying is something i don't do much, i do converse with Maharaji inside myself, and it is like praying. i believe in the magic of life. i believe in the magic of Maharaji, that there is some magic which connects him to me, and me to him, and i cherish that connection.

there have been times i did not go see him because i was worried about money, and then regretted that choice sorely. i honestly didn't and don't experience coming back as a mess. quite the contrary.

i can see how there is a temptation to use Knowledge and Maharaji as a sort of escape from problems and responsibilities, and maybe this is what you are referring to? however, this is not what Maharaji teaches. i always also felt that charity begins at home, and i never have given more than i could live with. wow. i never thought of myself as ms. practical either. really i am not the most frugal person and have terrible money habits. but that was my pattern before Maharaji came into my life. he really has not caused me to be richer nor poorer as far as i can tell.

i don't see Maharaji in relation to money anyway. i see him in relation to my own experience of opening up to appreciating this life. of making an effort to really honor this life, cherish this life, feel joy and be stirred with a near constant delight in this life. when i can do that, all the problems i have, i deal with them the best i know how, but they don't pull me down into the manic depression i was once victim to.

Grace is not an insurance policy for problems. Knowledge is not a solution to problems. Knowledge is not therapy. Knowledge is not a bank account. Knowledge is not a book of rules. Knowledge is not blind obedience.

i hope i have not offended you. if i did, it was not my intention. just trying to answer the best i know how.

it has got to be very hard for Maharaji. he is the first Master ever to bring Knowledge all over the globe, and in such large numbers. he is pioneering in his role, and just like other humans, he makes mistakes. doesn't mean he's not the Master though. just means he is human too. and i wouldn't want him any other way.

i guess i just have to post on here because he is so gorgeous, and i love him so much.
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