Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 15

From: Jun 28, 1998

To: Jul 6, 1998

Page: 4 Of: 5



RT -:- Cards 'R' us..Go To Press! -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:31:30 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Cards 'R' us..Go To Press! -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:47:10 (EST)
__Katie -:- Important: my e-mail address! -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:09:27 (EST)
____art from RT -:- your she-mail address! -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:30:35 (EST)
______Jim -:- were you ever a mime? -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:41:46 (EST)
________RT who has peace of mime -:- I feel punderful. -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:40:55 (EST)
__________Gail -:- I feel punderful. -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 19:24:40 (EST)
____________RT -:- SAT SONG IN WORKS. -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 21:35:06 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Cards 'R' us..Go To Press! -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 20:24:47 (EST)
__Richard -:- Cards 'R' us..Go To Press! -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 05:52:46 (EST)

Jim -:- Maharaji's 'welcome' letter -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:36:02 (EST)
__RT -:- Maharaji's 'welcome' letter... -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:21:56 (EST)
____Brian -:- Maharaji's 'welcome' letter... -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:30:05 (EST)
__S.F. -:- Eureka -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:05:46 (EST)
____RT -:- Eureka a keepa -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:45:05 (EST)
____Jim -:- Thanks, guys -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:59:11 (EST)
____Jim -:- SF: service opportunity! -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 21:37:56 (EST)
______S.F. -:- SF: service opportunity! -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 10:11:58 (EST)
__Jethro -:- Maharaji's 'welcome' letter -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:24:47 (EST)
__Katie -:- Maharaji's 'welcome' letter -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 09:56:52 (EST)

Just -:- for fun... -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 23:47:56 (EST)
__Selena -:- Sympathy for the eyeballs post -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 21:58:55 (EST)
____Katie -:- 'joke' posts -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 22:18:05 (EST)
______Selena -:- 'joke' posts -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 22:33:31 (EST)

Jim -:- CDCP - Data entry -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 22:56:18 (EST)
__PaulR -:- CDCP - Data entry -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:36:55 (EST)
____Jim -:- CDCP - Data entry -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:46:34 (EST)
______Selena -:- CDCP - Data entry -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:00:59 (EST)
________PaulR -:- CDCP - Data entry -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:27:16 (EST)

Jim -:- The DUO Proclamation -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 20:46:19 (EST)
__JW -:- The DUO Proclamation -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 20:55:34 (EST)
__Selena -:- The DUO Proclamation -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 20:55:53 (EST)
____Jim -:- Born yesterday? -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 22:41:42 (EST)
______Selena -:- Born yesterday? making up -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 01:16:43 (EST)
________Selena -:- ps - Born yesterday? I wish! -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 01:34:13 (EST)
__John -:- The DUO Proclamation -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 23:11:20 (EST)
____x -:- Pathetic -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 23:59:19 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Children of the Revolution -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 00:54:38 (EST)
________Richard -:- Children of the Revolution -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 07:06:37 (EST)
__________Judex -:- Children of the Revolution -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 07:11:19 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- Children of the Revolution -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:06:18 (EST)
____________John -:- define liberalism -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:25:04 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- That's right -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:35:51 (EST)
____________Gerry -:- Children of the Revolution -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:12:59 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- Children of the Revolution -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:38:54 (EST)
____________Richard -:- Children...................... -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:22:10 (EST)
______________John -:- Excellent post -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:01:35 (EST)
________________Robyn -:- Excellent post -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:19:43 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- Parsing the problem. -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:31:21 (EST)
________________Richard -:- Defining the problem. -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 07:06:28 (EST)
__________________Gerry -:- Great discourse! -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:20:21 (EST)
__________________Scott T. -:- Defining the problem. -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:44:08 (EST)
__________JW -:- Children of the Revolution -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:50:34 (EST)
____________VP -:- Children of the Revolution -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 19:29:58 (EST)
____Jim -:- Hey, that's MY routine! -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:44:57 (EST)
______John -:- Hey, that's MY routine! -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:59:28 (EST)
________Jim -:- Not Danny Devito? -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:15:01 (EST)
__________Selena -:- Not Danny Devito? -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:12:56 (EST)
__________VP -:- How about Tatoo? -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 19:36:58 (EST)
____________Selena -:- How about Tatoo? -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 21:18:16 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Hey, that's MY routine! -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:22:10 (EST)
____G's mom -:- brilliant work... -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:14:18 (EST)
______John -:- Gee thanks, but -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 09:14:41 (EST)
________G's mom -:- Gee thanks, but -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:22:23 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- Beavis and Butthead revisited -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 19:57:17 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- I meant Hank not Frank -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 19:59:41 (EST)

Jim -:- Debating JW's -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 19:41:35 (EST)
__Selena -:- Debating JW's -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 20:48:02 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Debating JW's -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 21:52:28 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Debating JW's -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 22:53:34 (EST)
____bftb -:- Debating JW's -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:25:40 (EST)
______Joy -:- Debating JW's -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:22:56 (EST)
________John -:- Door to door blues -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:19:38 (EST)
__________JW -:- Door to door blues -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:22:06 (EST)
____________John -:- Repressed -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:26:15 (EST)
______________JW -:- Repressed -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 17:22:28 (EST)
______________VP -:- Repressed-John -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 21:35:18 (EST)
__________Judex -:- Door to door blues -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 08:42:58 (EST)
____________John -:- in my mind again -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 12:53:02 (EST)
________Scott -:- Debating Jay Dubbs -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:19:49 (EST)
________Katie -:- AIID door to door -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 23:04:42 (EST)
______JW -:- Debating JW's -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:49:43 (EST)
________Jim -:- Debating JW's -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:04:16 (EST)
__________JW -:- Debating JW's -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:31:02 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- Debating JW's -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 17:41:37 (EST)
______________Gail -:- Debating JW's -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 19:27:31 (EST)
__________VP -:- Debating Mormons -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 21:54:00 (EST)
__Gerry -:- Debating JW's -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:21:16 (EST)
____Jim -:- Debating JW's -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:38:30 (EST)
______Gerry -:- Filling the void -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:57:45 (EST)
________Jim -:- Filling the void -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:12:22 (EST)
__________Gerry -:- Filling the void -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:43:00 (EST)
____________JW -:- Filling the void -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:55:56 (EST)
__jehovah's witless -:- Proof, if proof were needed. -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 21:35:42 (EST)
____mademelaugh -:- Science made Stupid -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 21:58:09 (EST)
______Now I No -:- Science made Stupid -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 11:39:13 (EST)

Al -:- Critical Thinking -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 18:01:40 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- Critical Thinking -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 18:08:11 (EST)
____Al -:- Critical Thinking -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 18:38:32 (EST)
______JW -:- Critical Thinking -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 19:48:29 (EST)
________Selena -:- Critical Thinking -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 20:38:49 (EST)
__________Al -:- Critical Thinking -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 21:00:35 (EST)
____________Selena -:- Critical Thinking -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 21:26:19 (EST)
______________Al -:- Critical Thinking -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:09:27 (EST)
________________bftb -:- Critical Thinking -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:53:10 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- Critical Thinking -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 22:40:07 (EST)
______________Gail -:- Critical Thinking -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 22:51:23 (EST)
__Emile -:- Critical Thinking -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 02:05:16 (EST)
____Al -:- Critical Thinking -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:17:48 (EST)
______Selena -:- Critical Thinking -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:01:47 (EST)
______Emile -:- Critical Thinking -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:45:15 (EST)
________Gail -:- True or Not? -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 07:56:49 (EST)
__________Emile -:- True or Not? -:- Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 02:08:30 (EST)

Mole -:- NEWS BULLET-IN -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 12:15:42 (EST)
__Gail -:- NEWS BULLET-IN -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 12:24:05 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- NEWS BULLET-IN -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 12:32:10 (EST)
__Brian -:- Invisible Premies -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 14:50:25 (EST)
__Jim -:- details?? -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 16:33:16 (EST)
____Mole -:- details?? -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 16:42:25 (EST)
__Selena -:- Q.RE: NEWS BULLET-IN -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 16:54:04 (EST)
____Mole -:- Q.RE: NEWS BULLET-IN -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 22:54:32 (EST)
__JW -:- NEWS BULLET-IN -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 17:11:14 (EST)
____John Smithfield-Ham -:- NEWS BULLET-IN -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 17:30:01 (EST)
______JW -:- NEWS BULLET-IN -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 17:45:26 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- Doesn't make sense to me -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 18:00:34 (EST)
__________JW -:- Doesn't make sense to me -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 18:09:23 (EST)
____________x -:- Doesn't make sense to me -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 18:41:50 (EST)
__________Sir David -:- Doesn't make sense to me -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 19:42:48 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- Doesn't make sense to me -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 00:33:52 (EST)
________Judex -:- NEWS BULLET-IN -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 06:29:19 (EST)
__________JW -:- You Didn't Do Anything -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 19:10:35 (EST)
____________Judex -:- to JW -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 23:55:54 (EST)
______________JW -:- to JW -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:04:13 (EST)
________________Katie -:- to JW -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:10:59 (EST)
____Mole -:- NEWS BULLET-IN -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 22:57:03 (EST)
______Jim -:- NEWS BULLET-IN -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:17:16 (EST)

Becky -:- betrayal & shock -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 08:52:10 (EST)
__revision -:- betrayal & shock -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 08:54:00 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- need help -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 12:06:48 (EST)
____Jim -:- Yes, but was it an experience? -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 14:42:32 (EST)
______Judex -:- Yes, but was it an experience? -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 06:39:36 (EST)
__Mark -:- betrayal & shock -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 14:36:36 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- What does 'cane Es' mean? -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 21:19:23 (EST)
____Sir David -:- What does 'cane Es' mean? -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 21:31:13 (EST)
______Becky -:- What does 'cane Es' mean? -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 08:20:22 (EST)
__Selena -:- betrayal & shock -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 22:04:30 (EST)
____VP -:- blowing my preconceived ideas -:- Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 23:58:59 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- blowing my preconceived ideas -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 01:12:12 (EST)
________JW -:- Premie Drug Use -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 02:33:10 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Premie Drug Use -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:30:35 (EST)
______Joy -:- Premie Morality -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 01:59:38 (EST)
________Judex -:- Premie Morality -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 06:50:29 (EST)
__________Becky -:- Premie Morality -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 08:31:37 (EST)
____________Revision -:- Premie Morality -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 08:34:03 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Moral Animals -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:24:06 (EST)
______________Becky -:- Moral Animals -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:14:01 (EST)
______Sir David -:- blowing my preconceived ideas -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 04:23:17 (EST)
______Judex -:- blowing my preconceived ideas -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 06:42:19 (EST)
______Katie -:- blowing my preconceived ideas -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 08:01:41 (EST)
________bftb -:- blowing my preconceived ideas -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:20:28 (EST)
__________JW -:- blowing my preconceived ideas -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:11:23 (EST)
______Robyn -:- blowing my preconceived ideas -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 09:58:37 (EST)
________VP -:- blowing my preconceived ideas -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:55:21 (EST)
__________Selena -:- oops -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 17:24:25 (EST)
____________VP -:- oops -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 19:52:39 (EST)
____________Katie -:- oops -:- Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 23:15:56 (EST)
______________Selena -:- oops -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 11:46:30 (EST)
________________Katie -:- Selena's life as a premie -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:04:09 (EST)
__________________Becky -:- writing -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:19:25 (EST)
__________Becky -:- premies on smack -:- Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:17:20 (EST)


Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:31:30 (EST)
From: RT
Email: see Katie
To: Everyone
Subject: Cards 'R' us..Go To Press!
Message:
(YIP-P)USA – For the first time ever, Non-followers of the Boo-Hoo Maharaji can enlighten with a calling card, which directs them to the 'Ex-Premie.Org' web site. (Devotees of BM have been warned about the World Wide Web as a sort of 'Inter-Nyet' by the Boo-Hoo)

Donations will not be accepted for this first run of cards, which are printed on golden card stock with ink as black as deep space, according to an ‘Ex’, Un or Non-devotee. “ I am most happy to contribute to humanity’s FREEDOM after 24 years of credit card debt, hundreds of long distance calls to reserve my place in the King-dumb, checks written for overpriced 13 minute videos, and wear and tear on my car, relationships and consciousness”, says 'RT.' His name is a pseudonym for Arti, an ancient Indian candle-waving song, sung to a picture of a human pretending to be divine.

The design can be freely ordered OR can be made on a computer. The Free cards are double sided; one side says “Just Say KNOW” and the obverse: “Where Knowledge brought us: Ex-Premie.org. http://www.ex-premie.org.

Cards can be obtained from this web site by emailing KATIE for her mailing address; interested Exers must send the following: A self-realized STAMPED envelope placed inside another envelope, addressed to Katie. You will receive 10 or 20 per request, please note that this is the first run of 250 only. (Thank you, Katie for volunteering.)

Leave No Room for Doubt in your Behind (which means, you can bet your ass) - they can be reprinted in color. The cost for 1000 cards D/S in color is $75... But there IS another way

You can print your own cards using AVERY brand perforated business cards, on a color or B&W laser or ink jet printer. They are available at large stationary outlets. They cost $14 per 250, single sided I recommend you do this. Not everyone needs 100’s of cards! A few dozen will do.

If you elect to make your own cards, below are the 3 lines that fits the call. Please read - and type – carefully:

________________________________

Where KNOWLEDGE brought us:

http://www.ex-premie.org

Just Say KNOW.

_________________________________

Graphic DESIGN: If you do your own – and I hope you do- Use 14-16 point type at least so it can be read easily. Times Roman is fine. Italic / bold is fine excepting on the web address: makes that line regular. Layout: CENTER the 3 lines. Keep it simple!

Windows / Mac SOFTWARE to print the cards: Call AVERY at 1-800-646-3390 x 102 for a diskette or CD-ROM of the Avery Wizard software. This is a very smart way to quickly design cards or labels in MS Word, supports 137 Avery Laser and Inkjet products- easy and fun. OR DOWNLOAD the software from: www.wizard.avery.com. The toll free number and online site are real. Truth is Free, so is the software to reveal it. Know for it!

Now you have PROOF when you tell the Premies in the Whirled of Knowledge.. “Hey, my karma ran over my dogma!

RT

WE ARE THE .ORG - RESISTANCE IS LOGICAL
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:47:10 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: RT
Subject: Cards 'R' us..Go To Press!
Message:
Dear RT,
Good luck with the cards, I am happy to say I don't think there are any premies around here anymore. Just me and an ex-premie friend of mine and I'm sure the BM wouldn't waste his time in this country bumpkinville area, yippie!
I also LOVE your name and how you arrived at it. You are a gem!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:09:27 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Important: my e-mail address!
Message:
My e-mail address is:
petkat@mail.trib.net

This is important, because there are two people named Katie in the White Pages, and in the Journeys index.

Also, you don't absolutely HAVE to send the self-addressed stampled envelope (especially if you already know me and I know your address.) Just e-mail me and I will send you the cards.

Thanks, RT! It's very nice of you to do this.
Katie
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:30:35 (EST)
From: art from RT
Email: omm
To: Katie
Subject: your she-mail address!
Message:
..tonite's the night, so sweetly,
you give your mail completely!
Tonite-the look-of 'From' is in your eyes
but will you 'Reply' tomorrow?

Dear Katie - I just ate a yogurt and am high on the sugar....

Cards are packed in 10 per small envelope already to snail mail
to you (and you and you!) I send tomorrow when we e-chat tonite. I hope all reading will make their own cards, also, consider making cards on your printer for little kids or an uncle or yourself, they are very handy.

Merry Meditations and a Happy New Prayer! HOHOHO HAHAHA HEEHEEHEE

Santa RT

I know, I'm such a card.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:41:46 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: art from RT
Subject: were you ever a mime?
Message:
RT,

Didn't your mamma ever tell you about puns?
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:40:55 (EST)
From: RT who has peace of mime
Email: ommm
To: Jim
Subject: I feel punderful.
Message:
OKOK -
I are normal now. Lost some sleep, 2 hrs last nite... Kept feeling techinque number 3 and was wondering if Cosmic Conscioussness requires it's earthly representative to have a 2 million dollar yacht.
RT

PS: new quote from 'Cowgirls' to upload soon.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 19:24:40 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: RT who has peace of mime
Subject: I feel punderful.
Message:
How 'bout a song if you've got time.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 21:35:06 (EST)
From: RT
Email: OMMMM
To: Gail
Subject: SAT SONG IN WORKS.
Message:
YOU TELEPATH YOU! I am working on a gordon lightfoot just for you..try to get the Best of Gord's gold vol 2' Your song is first on side 2. soon....you will swoon...RT
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 20:24:47 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Cards 'R' us..Go To Press!
Message:
RT:

Leave No Room for Doubt in your Behind (which means, you can bet your ass) -

[Directed to M]

As Peter Lorrrie said in Casablanca: 'We thank you from the heart of our bottom.'

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 05:52:46 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Cards 'R' us..Go To Press!
Message:
Nice work RT. I shall be making my own cards to your design. Thanks.

Richard
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:36:02 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji's 'welcome' letter
Message:
I've asked this before but got no replies. So, here, in a post of its own, is my question again:

Does anyone have the letter from Maharaji included in every k 'packet' (along with the commandments, a picture of Maharaji and I'm not sure what else) given to new initiates in the early 70s?

No, I don't want to get it just to resell it to CD. I think it's an extremely important document in the context of this discussion here.

If you're a lurker for some reason but have it, plese feel free to email me and trust that I'll deal with you privately.

Thanks,

Jim
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:21:56 (EST)
From: RT
Email: ssshh
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji's 'welcome' letter...
Message:
Hi Jim

Yes we have the letter. I'll email tonite at your address.
Will a photocopy suffice? I want to auction it off someday to pay for Hans Jayanti '78!

RT
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:30:05 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: RT
Subject: Maharaji's 'welcome' letter...
Message:
Send me a copy too, will you RT?
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:05:46 (EST)
From: S.F.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Eureka
Message:
Hi Jim,

Your post prompted me to have a little trawl through my attic for the old box containing all my ancient DLM propaganda. I can't believe the stuff I've just found, including the entire K. packet, in almost pristine condition, circa 1977! There is a letter from the Guru, an A4 size black and white photo (looks like Copenhagen '74), a glossy photo with the five commandments and a one page piece of satsang entitled, 'You Are Disciples Now', from Hampstead Town Hall, England, October 31, 1971.

I've also got several And It Is Divines, Divine Times, Guru Puja Songbook '73 (a real doozie complete with Bhole Ji and Blue Aquarius photos). There is also the Peace Bomb Satsang, the book, Who is Guru Maharaj Ji, and a rare magazine called Divine Light, (No. 1, June 1971.) There are several photos also and other stuff I've not had time to even look at yet. I haven't seen any of this stuff for about 15 years at least. I packed it when I moved house in 1983 and hadn't opened the box since.

Here's the letter:

DIVINE UNITED ORGANISATION

Dear Premies,

Congratulations! You have just received Knowledge and I hope you understood it too.

You know this Knowledge is like food. It can just be there and will be of no use unless eaten; it will be of benefit to no one. It's only going to be worthwhile if you eat it. Only then can you enjoy it.

Since now you have received this Knowledge it is your duty to do meditation, service and satsang, and understand this Knowledge through these means. Let me also remind you and caution you about something and that is your mind. This mind is really going to be freaked out because Knowledge is its antidote. And therefore in the future this mind might really begin to bother you. But do not be bothered, just keep on truckin', just keep on going. Believe it, it will certainly go away. Further, keep in touch. Love is everlasting.

Happy meditation, satsang, and service.

Yours,

Guru Maharaji Ji

DUO INTERNATIONAL
511 Sixteenth Street, Denver, Colorado 80202, (303) 623-8280 Telex #45925
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:45:05 (EST)
From: RT
Email: OM
To: S.F.
Subject: Eureka a keepa
Message:
Thanks S.F. for the rummaging..sounds like a goldMIND of data.
Well, Jim, there you go! Brian - OK? do you still want hardcopy?
RT
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:59:11 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: S.F.
Subject: Thanks, guys
Message:
Since now you have received this Knowledge it is your duty to do meditation, service and satsang, and understand this Knowledge through these means.

So there it is. Having received k it was our duty to do ss&m. Duty to whom? Duty to the Lord, that's whom. Good stuff if you're into it and inconsequential if you didn't take Maharaji seriously. But what if you did take him seriously (i.e. think that he really was an 'enlightened being' or maybe even 'God') but couldn't or didn't want to keep up? Heavy shit, isn't it?

Let me also remind you and caution you about something and that is your mind. This mind is really going to be freaked out because Knowledge is its antidote.

Wow! Here Maharaji is pretty well guaranteeing that previously balanced and mentally stable people, just plain ol' folks like you and me, were going to be 'freaked out'. Is that what happened to Dave Weiner perhaps? Of course it is. It happened to all of us to varying degrees. This was a mindfuck and some of our minds fought the rapist a little harder than others.


And therefore in the future this mind might really begin to bother you. But do not be bothered, just keep on truckin', just keep on going. Believe it, it will certainly go away.


Does anyone know of a single person who can claim they came out the other side, that their mind did indeed 'certainly go away'? There are some people who seemed to really enjoy being premies but did their mind's go away? Bhole Ji, Bal Bhagwan Ji and Mata Ji come to mind (no pun intended).
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 21:37:56 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: S.F.
Subject: SF: service opportunity!
Message:
SF,

Is there anything particularly significant about that k packet satsang? If so, would you be so kind as to post it? Also, that 1971 Divine Light -- does it have a Q & A? If so, would you please look it over for hooks, lines and sinkers and post the relevant portions as you find them?

Thanks,

Jim
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 10:11:58 (EST)
From: S.F.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: SF: service opportunity!
Message:
It will take a little time to type it all up. I don't have a scanner. But I do type quite well. So give me a day or two and I'm sure you'll find some interesting M howlers.

Regards,

S.F.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:24:47 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji's 'welcome' letter
Message:
Jim, I'm fairly sure I've got the letter,. I'll dig it out and email you a copy.

regards Jethro

PS no devotee has offered me the $5000 yet!
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 09:56:52 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji's 'welcome' letter
Message:
Jim - FYI, I do not remember being given a packet with a letter from Maharaji when I got knowledge in late 1972. This does not mean I didn't get one, just that I don't remember it. I have some selective memory dysfunction from that period, like Scott does. I'd be interested to read a copy of a letter from that time period (72-73), if one exists.

Also, I am amazed at the amount of Maharaji memorabilia that people have held on to for all those years. I have moved approximately 40 times since I got Knowledge, and I long ago left everything behind in one trash can or another.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 23:47:56 (EST)
From: Just
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: for fun...
Message:
A farmer walked into an attorney's office wanting to file for a divorce.

The attorney asked, 'May I help you??'
The farmer said, 'Yeah, I want to get one of them dayvorces.'
The attorney said, 'Well do you have any grounds?'
The farmer said, 'Yeah, I got about 140 acres.'
The attorney said, 'No, you don't understand, do you have a case?'
The farmer said, 'No, I don't have a Case, but I have a John Deere.'
The attorney said, 'No, you don't understand, I mean do you have a
grudge?'
The farmer said, 'Yeah, I got a grudge, that's where I park my John
Deere.'
The attorney said, 'No sir, I mean do you have a suit?'
The farmer said, 'Yes, sir, I got a suit, I wear it to church on
Sundays.'
The exasperated attorney said, 'Well, sir, does your wife beat you up or
anything?'
The farmer said, 'No sir, we both get up about 4:30.'
Finally, the attorney said, 'Okay, let me put it this way: why do you
want a divorce?'
The farmer replied, 'Well, I can never have a meaningful conversation
with her.'
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 21:58:55 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Just
Subject: Sympathy for the eyeballs post
Message:
The people pleaser in me just can't stand looking at this
lonely post any longer. Maybe it's cause you called it fun. Who wants to have fun by having fun? Not use whiny complaining ex's - just ask any premie clone who posts here.
It was a cute joke - you must live where I do, they all talk
that way.

Selena.... a transplant from Amherst ... I want to move
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 22:18:05 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: whoever posted this
Subject: 'joke' posts
Message:
I appreciate jokes as much as the next person, and I will print this one out for my husband because he works with a lot of farmers like this. HOWEVER, and I really hope this doesn't hurt your feelings, I get TONS of internet-relayed jokes from my relatives. A lot of them are the same jokes. I don't read them anymore - I just delete them. Sorry about this, but I get a lot of e-mail and I just have to be selective. I am sure your intentions were just to cheer us all up.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 22:33:31 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: 'joke' posts
Message:
I agree Katie. I delete those jokes too. It's information overload - there is only so much a person can pay attention to.
When I actually do read them they are usually really funny but
it's too hard to keep up.

....just sent you mail about sisters
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 22:56:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: CDCP - Data entry
Message:
The proposals offered by you and Jim indicate where your characters have wandered to these days.
The barren mirage of the over-rational mindscape.
The beauty and honesty of the old premie songs may still motivate a hopeful feeling in your lives some day. So it is best that you hang on to them.

Cheers,
CD


Anyone interested in working on the CD Communication Project (CDCP) should be prepared for years of hard work. The project's been off to an informal but consistent start for the past two years and, frankly, we're still just collecting data. Few hypotheses are floating around and our funding's dwindling. Many researches quit after days, in some cases even hours. Three are bedridden with a yet unkown ailment and, I'd be lying, if I said morale was anything but terrible. But, hey, this is science and some lucky ones among you are drawn like moths to flames to the densely inscrutable.

Anyway, you can do your work at home, there's no dress code and, well, welcome aboard. (I'm sorry if I seem a little disheartened. This is, in the final analysis, nasty work. Glad to have you.)
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:36:55 (EST)
From: PaulR
Email: pgrobinson@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: CDCP - Data entry
Message:
What is this?
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:46:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PaulR
Subject: CDCP - Data entry
Message:
What's it look like?
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:00:59 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: CDCP - Data entry
Message:
To me it looks like a joke and a way to vent frustration at CD and his/her posts. He drives me up a wall!! I just recently complained about this in private. His brand of milk toast posts - (they're
not for breakfast anymore) - those posts are a deliberate
passive agressive baiting and I usually skip them unless
I think there is some info, which there never is.
So, I would be useless to you as a researcher but thanks
for the chance to say this.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:27:16 (EST)
From: PaulR
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: CDCP - Data entry
Message:
I don't know. That's why I asked.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 20:46:19 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The DUO Proclamation
Message:
In 1973 Maharaji said the following thingamajigger. There's a priceless film of him reading this historic document too. Three-peice suit. Funny that you can't get a video of THAT at the trinket tables.:

The DUO Proclamation

Whereas, the one universal belief all people hold to be true,is the belief in life itself; and yet due to ignorance of the aim of human life, the world continues to be filled with misery; and

Whereas, even with the advancements of the technologically expanding twentieth century, humanity has continually failed in all efforts to find a solution to misery and suffering; and

Whereas, Knowledge of the aim of human life is being revealed to all people of the world by the living Perfect Master and spiritual head of Divine Light Mission, Paramhas Satgurudev Shri Sant Ji Maharaji, thus eliminating the cause of ignornace and misery;

Therefore, the people who have experienced the Knowledge of Shri Sant Ji Maharaj, with full awareness of the difficulties of living wiithout knowing the aim of human life, are compelled to reach out to the rest of the struggling humanity to spread the solution to strife and suffering by a commitment to work in all fields of endeavor for the elevation of humanity, manifesting an exemplary alternative to be known as Heaven's Gate..[er, sorry, my joke,] to be known as the Divine United Organization or D.U.O.

Guru Maharaj Ji
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 20:55:34 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The DUO Proclamation
Message:
Whereas, Knowledge of the aim of human life..... thus eliminating the cause of ignornace and misery;

Kind of goes against what old red heels was saying that BM never said knowledge wouldn't solve the world's problems.

By the way, does anyone know how the name And It Is Divine got chosen for the name of DLM's magazine back in the 70s and what the hell it means?

And why was it changed to Elan Vital and what the hell does that mean?
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 20:55:53 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The DUO Proclamation
Message:
You're kidding aren't you? If you are it's funny but ...

If you are not I want to know what film? And where did
you get that priceless gem? If you don't answer I'll use font codes instead of bold. I really mean it.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 22:41:42 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Born yesterday?
Message:
Selena,

You make me feel so old. This 'proclamation' was lifted from page 31 of the book Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?. It's for real alright. At one point all the community cordinators (who had been general secrataries but are now merely contact people) were called 'DUO Directors'. We really thought we were gearing up for something big.

DUO was the overarching umbrella organization housing DLM (the gold. old, one and only), World Peace Conference or 'WPC' (security forces) and World Welfare Association or 'WWA' (benevolent works society). Then there were all the Shri Hans subsidiaries of DLM, Shri Hans Educational, Shri Hans Records, Shri Hans Productions and Shri Hans Pulications. The book also talks about Shri Hans Humanitarian Services (doctors, psychiatrists, nutritionists) but I never really heard of that one (although the book boasts of a 'fully staffed clinic in New York City and a farm retreat in Rhode Island').

Then, well, may I?:

'Divine Sales International takes from the rich and gives to the poor -- but everything it sells is donated rather than stolen. Visitors are astonished to see working television sets on sale for a few dollars, shirts and pansts going for twenty-five cents. The first American branch opened in New York i the fall of 1972; by now, branches have been opened in the largest American cities. All profits return to Divine Light Mission to pay for the solutions to the problems of mankind. Premies and non-premies work side by side far into the night, repairing damaged merchandise, sorting gifts and making every store as beuatiful as possible. Working for divine business isn't a job -- it's a privilege and even a delight.

Divine Services offers painting, carpentry, plumbing, housecleaning, lawn care, auto repair, and many other services throughout the country. As the newest branch of the divine economy, its prices have made it so popular that it cannot keep up with demand. A Divine Food Co-op Serivce may soon be on its way.

That's only the beginning. There's also Shri Hans Aviation, a divine airline; Divine Travel Services and Divine Travel International, organized to ferry devotees by the tens of thousands to festivals and special projects throughout the world; Shri Hans Engineering and Divine Electronics, wholesale marketers of electronics equipment and designers of everything from inventions to new cities. The Players of the Living Arts are the musicians, actors, dancers, artists and singers of the new age.

Guru Maharaj Ji knew this would happen from the start. In December, 1972, and January, 1973, he designed the Divine United
Organization, or DUO, as a master plan for the resdiscovery of humanity, an organization capable of meeting global needs with total solutions. DUO coordinates the entire divine community, and under the guidance of Guru Maharja Ji works thorugh purely constructive means to remold this world as a humanistic society where people base their lives upon service rather than selfishness. For the members of DUO, work is worship.

The stated purpose of DUO might seem like an idle dream except for the incredible growth of Divine Light Mission. The Mission is different from all other organizations in that all of its members have received Knowledge. They have scrapped every ulterior motive and rededicated their lives. They are well on their way to total selflessness. Taking only what they need, giving all of themselves to the task, they are tackling the most massive job that men have ever faced -- out of love for their Perfect Master, Guru Maharaj Ji.'

The movie's a riot. It starts with Bob Mishler's screen test for Night of the Living Dead and it ends with Maharaji's screen test for Godfather II.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 01:16:43 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Born yesterday? making up
Message:
Dear Jim
You have told me more than I ever knew I wanted to know.
At the same time you have written everything I already had
ascertained, by whatever methods at my disposal... intuition,
judgement, reading, talking to people, watching premies..the big T word (aka thinking) and last but not least ... ta da....
commom sense!!!!
I am inspired. Thank you. How sad that such exploitation
could happen to those of us who cared so much.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 01:34:13 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: ps - Born yesterday? I wish!
Message:
We probably aren't that far apart in age. I think more than likely
I spent those years either in child rearing or drugged up.
( and yes they were mutually exclusive! unless you count cult involvement in the 70's years)
====== ============
Selena.. didn't learn how to get fuc*#d up til mid 80's - uh
unless you count high school (please don't).
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 23:11:20 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The DUO Proclamation
Message:
The great DUO Proclomation! Isn't it unbelievable, given the 'how low can you go' profile of the living perfect master of our time for the last 15 years? The DUO proclomation was one of those earth shattering, history making events that was so totally absolutely meaningless that I am sure 9 out of 10 premies will deny it ever happened.

Thanks Jim, for bringing back yet another good guffaw.

I can still see GMJ reading that proclomation, a twinkle in his eye, daring us to actually take him seriously. I suspected he was just joking, little did I realize WHAT exactly he was joking about.

I guess for GMJ to wake up in the 80's to the fact that his special powers as the Living Perfect Master were extremely limited must have been a real shockeroo.

Hell, GMJ could get some mileage out of that story, he could go on Larry King:

Larry: 'Before we got to our callers,and I see the phones are already lit up, Maharaji, apparently at one time, you actually thought you were God in a human form. What was that moment like when you first realized that you weren't God?'

M: 'Well, Larry, it was funny because it was like soooo beautiful the way it happened. It was like, umm, I was actually trying to fly a kite, and I really really wanted this kite to fly, and it just would not stay up. So then I, I don't know how to say this, but I decided that I would try to summon my special powers, you know, (giggles) since I thought I WAS actually God, I figured that you know, I should be able to control the wind, you know I should be able to do little stuff like that. So, I tried to make the wind blow in just the right way to keep my kite up in the air. And it wouldn't blow right. And Larry, to tell you the truth, I actually felt so relieved about it. Cause I had known for some time that something was not quite right. And I really thought maybe it was my fault, you know? Since I really really thought I was God. But when I realized that I was NOT God, it was like a great weight was lifted off of my shoulders.'

Larry: 'But gee Maharaji, what about all your followers who thought you WERE God? Didn't you feel bad about all of them?'

M: 'Well, Larry, yes I did feel bad. But then I realized, just like Mahatma Ji says, everything is for the best. and I have to just really stay focused on what my father told me to do in this life which is take his message to the world. So, yes I have to admit my expectations have been lowered but I think overall we're gonna be okay, the premies who want to continue worshipping me as God should continue to do so, nothing has really changed. Whether I actually am God or not should not make any difference to the true devotee. The true devotee has to be able to overcome all kinds of tests, and this is just another test for all of us.'

from the imagination of John, who, in his 20's, worshipped a spoiled adolescent from India.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 23:59:19 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: thread
Subject: Pathetic
Message:
Bm & his claims are so ridiculous that its almost too much for me to take. When I think about the preposterous nature of his whole enterprise, I become overwhelmed at the thought that anybody could sit through any of his videos or discourses and not be ill. His tactics of bait and hook seem so shallowly transparent that you would think that no one could ever fall for such a thing. What a bizzare world that these things even exist. I saw an ad for some clown named 'Living Master Sant Thaker Singh' 'Learn how to enjoy and experience the Kingdom of God through meditation on the Inner Light and Sound.' Blah blah. How pathetic. I wonder how many Rolls Royces he has?

x
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 00:54:38 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Children of the Revolution
Message:
x:

How pathetic. I wonder how many Rolls Royces he has?

As bad as this is, it's only recreation compared to political demagogues. Want to speculate how much damage the next great secular religion will cause? If you want a laugh check out the movie 'Children of the Revolution,' about the Australian bastard son of Josef Stalin. Talk about dark comedy.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 07:06:37 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Children of the Revolution
Message:
Hi Scott,

As bad as this is, it's only recreation compared to political demagogues.

You are right to put this into some kind of perspective, we must not become obsessive and we should be able to move on. There are many kinds of oppression in the world; physical slavery, political demagogues, abusive fathers, bullies in general, the list is endless.

However, and without resort to examples, most of these are readily identifiable for what they are, control systems. The victims know that they are victims and have an enemy to focus on. They also live in hope of reaching the boundary of their controllers territory and making their escape.

Premies, on the other hand, have no hope of escape since they are led to believe that they are already in the process of escaping. They cannot be redeemed because Maharaji is supposed to be the redeemer. By identifying himself with God/Spirit Maharaji has removed all possibility of comparison. The link between guru and premie which Maharaji reinforces constantly leaves no possibility for individual movement, it is all through him. Here is a typical Maharaji satsang clip, perhaps not absolutely verbatim but others will recognise it...

and when you are in that dark place, who will you call out to, who will help you, only Guru....not even knowledge can help you, only Guru can save you...

This is typical of the highly emotional stuff that Maharaji used to put out and maybe still does. He wants premies to be completely reliant on him and to make no judgement about him or what he does. He has stated quite clearly that knowledge has nothing to do with what happens when you die and that, of itself, the knowledge has no value. Only Guru is important.

And then, when premies have invested everything in him (spiritual and emotional beliefs), not only does he fail to deliver, he blames the premie for not being devoted enough.

This is a lose/lose system that is capable of destroying peoples ability to function in the world. It is a far more dangerous and insidious than any other religion or political system in the world because it denies the victim even the small comfort of seeing themselves as a victim. You havn't been beaten, you've failed.

Sorry if I've ranted a bit here but the debate is enormous.

Regards

Richard
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 07:11:19 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Children of the Revolution
Message:
Yes good point. People close to me are still premies. I surrounded myself (physically for example) with premies. I can't say too much but I have worked out I don't think they read this site.

You are right they can't function in the world. Yet they are really great people. Super people. I adore them. That's the trouble (for me)- I feel quite conflicted in my loyalties. I also know I am way not strong enough to say anything to them.

So on with the Forum and let's get stronger.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:06:18 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Children of the Revolution
Message:
Richard:

I apologize for name dropping in the following discourse. I know it irritates some, but it is a way of keeping things straight as the ideas get dropped into the mixer.

There is a philosopher who I think is pretty good, who used to be a liberal (in the European sense, not the Ameracan). His name is John Gray, so many confuse him with that dope who wrote the book about men being from Venus, or whatever.

Anyway, in a discussion of freedom he talks about what is called the 'epicurean fallacy.' The gist of it is that if freedom is freedom to fulfill desire, and one eliminates desire, then it is possible for the slave to be more free than the master. That sounds very spiritual, but most liberal philosophers don't like that result at all. It is one of the things that led Gray to reject liberalism and become a communitarian.

I asked Buchanan about this fallacy, since he used to be a close friend of Gray, and Buchanan said Gray made a mistake in talking about freedom in the first place. The issue is not freedom, but sovereignty. Someone can willingly go into slavery without creating a paradox as long as they can exit at any time they choose. As you can see, liberalism tends not to give much credibility to the idea that freedom to exit can be undermined by manipulating psychological states. Since their psychological state is stable they feel everyone else's must be relatively stable too.

In fact, Buchanan has written a book about the protestant ethic which attempts to answer the critics of his Public Choice economics by considering as valid the sort of psychological manipulaton that ocurred under Calvinism. He regards that as valid manipulation because it doesn't overtly coerce anyone. It compels people to seek education in a 'calling' or vocation and to work harder at it than would be commensurate with material rewards, it rewards saving independently of interest rates, and it holds down consumerism and therefor inflation. All pretty neat stuff if you're a Public Choice economist. The psychological mechanism by which Calvinism accomplishes this feat was, of course, discovered by Weber.

However, Calvinism and the doctrine of predestination are even more manipulative than the Guru/Disciple relationship because they place people in a truly impossible bind. You can't alter your ultimate fate no matter what you do, so your free will is of absolutely no consequence. Your fate was sealed long before you were born. However, what you can do is to live your life in such a way that it becomes a sign of your status as one of the elect who is predestined for salvation. If M could figure out how to duplicate that sort of psycho-drama in premies then your statement about complete absence of freedom would be totally valid:

Premies, on the other hand, have no hope of escape since they are led to believe that they are already in the process of escaping. They cannot be redeemed because Maharaji is supposed to be the redeemer. By identifying himself with God/Spirit Maharaji has removed all possibility of comparison. The link between guru and premie which Maharaji reinforces constantly leaves no possibility for individual movement, it is all through him.

You and I know that a lot of people do escape, in spite of that conditioning. That's because the ideology doesn't completely remove the element of free will. You can always choose whether or not to be 'on the path' and what level of commitment you'll manifest. So the seed of 'choice' is never completely eliminated. It eventually sprouts again, and people take a hike when they see that there are no rewards for their effort or the quality of their choice. Calvinists had no such luxury. Nothing they did could affect their status so they couldn't even make a comparision against the 'standard' of salvation.

To my mind this is still the great weakness in liberal philosophy. I don't think Buchanan appreciates the fact that Calvinists or people in Guru cults, or other cultic religions, are not free to leave. Sometimes I wish I were still in those seminars so I could box him in on some of this stuff, to see what he says. But, I don't think you are appreciating the extent to which people under Stalinism were similarly manipulated. Marxism was, and is, a religion. It is simply a secular or even an atheistic one. Again, people stopped believing in it when it failed to produce results, but that took a long time to work itself out. Most people under Stalin did not see themselves as repressed. The same is true of fascism under Hitler.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that on one level I agree with the authors of 'The Guru Papers' that the guru/disciple relationship is a sort of micro version of the dynamics of psychological authoritarianism. I'm with them on that. It is the idiosyncratic way they deal with ideology itself that is problematic for me. But, I haven't finished the book.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:25:04 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: define liberalism
Message:
What's the difference between a European liberal and an American?

My understanding is that the European liberal places a greater value on freedom. Whereas the current American liberal is one who places a greater value on creating 'good' in society, at the expense of freedom. F'rstance, creating laws (taking away freedoms) to protect us from ourselves - smoking, seat belts, etc.

Or am I wrong about that?
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:35:51 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: John
Subject: That's right
Message:
John:

What's the difference between a European liberal and an American?

My understanding is that the European liberal places a greater value on freedom. Whereas the current American liberal is one who places a greater value on creating 'good' in society, at the expense of freedom. F'rstance, creating laws (taking away freedoms) to protect us from ourselves - smoking, seat belts, etc.

Or am I wrong about that?


That's basically it. As usual the Americans have turned everything on its head. 'European Liberalism,' or 'Classical Liberalism' seeks to preserve 'negative freedoms' or the 'freedom from' intervention, etc. 'Freedom to' or positive freedom is the focus of American Liberalism, at least that's one way to look at it. Of course the overall American ideology is classically liberal so the liberal/conservative extremes are both within the overall liberal context. There is no Social Democratic, or Socialist party here, in other words. There is also no 'conservative' party in the European sense. No Tory party, in other words.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:12:59 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Children of the Revolution
Message:
Scott,

It took me a couple of reading, and at first I thought you were contradicting yourself when you said 'You and I know that a lot of people do escape, in spite of that conditioning. That's because the ideology doesn't completely remove the element of free will.'

and then, ' I don't think Buchanan appreciates the fact that Calvinists or people in Guru cults, or other cultic religions, are not free to leave.'

Do you mean that cult members are free to leave in the literal sense, but can't because of the psychological manipulation they experience? The double bind of wanting to get away versus the fear of hell, rotting vegies, etc?
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:38:54 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Children of the Revolution
Message:
Gerry:

RE: Do you mean that cult members are free to leave in the literal sense, but can't because of the psychological manipulation they experience? The double bind of wanting to get away versus the fear of hell, rotting vegies, etc?

Exactly. Classical liberalism has a problem with this sort of 'non-freedom.' That was the gist of what I was saying.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:22:10 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Children......................
Message:
Scott

Your knowledge of the subject and your use of this knowledge in debate is truly impressive and admirable, just the stuff we need to do on this forum. Unfortunately, most aspirants don't have this level of understanding and, if they did, would probably never fall prey to people like Maharaji. I don't neccessarily agree with the points that you've made but I am impressed by them and I will try to make my own.

Most people under Stalin did not see themselves as repressed. The same is true of fascism under Hitler.

This is surely supposition but the analogy is still useful. These regimes were imposed, not voluntary, and were perpetrated across recognised national boundaries. If you opposed the regime you became a victim and thus had a kernel of self-belief. Alternatively you could escape across the border and be free. In either case the controlling mechanism was externalised and therefore separate from yourself. It was not your fault that you lived under a shit system and their was no guilt attached.

Now this may seem like a moot point but consider that Maharaji's world is entirely voluntary in the external sense. Therefore it requires your consent and thus makes you complicit. How do you complain about something that, by definition, was self-imposed. All of the world's best con-artists use this method because it works.

Maharaji's con is the biggest of all, the offer of personal salvation. It is aimed at the most vulnerable, those people who feel they need saving. They are tied in by the culture of dependency, only Guru can help you. They have invested absolutely all of their personal credibility to get this far and when the shit hits the fan they have nobody to blame but themselves.

Thus they have wasted years of personal development, they are damaged beyond measure, they carry the shame of having recruited others to the cause and are left isolated, bereft of certainty and, worst of all, they have probably run out of energy to keep up the search for truth that they started. And all this within a free and democratic society.

Before you attempt to minimise the impact of damaged personal credibility, consider the fact that most victims of cons never report them because of the shame factor. We still don't know the extent of bank fraud, for instance, because banks consider the amount lost a small price to pay for keeping their reputations. How different is it likely to be for frightened individuals?

It is also the case that most police forces now run victim support schemes whereby the criminals are required to face their victims, admit to their crimes and apologise. This is considered to be the only way that some victims can recover from the trauma.

What crimes has Maharaji committed? How can he ever be made to face his victims, as victims they surely are. How are the victims ever going to be able to recover from their experiences and feel okay about themselves if all we ever do is to debate the subject at an intellectual level? I think that this is why Jim gets angry, it's certainly true for me.

So I can understand your arguments and comparisons with historical regimes and your analysis is powerful but what Maharaji did and continues to do is wrong!!!!!!

Regards

Richard
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:01:35 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Excellent post
Message:
Richard, very well said.

I think our only recourse is to do exactly what we are doing. Posting our stories for the entire world to read.

Certainly if M is who he claims to be then he has nothing at all to fear.

(ho ho ho)
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:19:43 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: John
Subject: Excellent post
Message:
Dear Richard,
I agree with John. I know of a person who posts here but hasn't been here lately who may benifit from your post so I am copying it and forwarding it along. Thanks.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:31:21 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Parsing the problem.
Message:
Richard:

RE: This is surely supposition but the analogy is still useful. These regimes were imposed, not voluntary, and were perpetrated across recognised national boundaries. If you opposed the regime you became a victim and thus had a kernel of self-belief. Alternatively you could escape across the border and be free. In either case the controlling mechanism was externalised and therefore separate from yourself. It was not your fault that you lived under a shit system and their was no guilt attached.

I think the point I wanted to make was that both forms of manipulation were exercised in Stalinism and Fascism, both during their rise and their maintenance periods. People were not free to come and go, which is some indication to those people under the regime that there was a problem with the ideology. Since no external control is exercised in the G/D relationship premies lack that external signal that they are being oppressed, and liberals are similarly fooled on a theoretical level. I agree with that.

How do you complain about something that, by definition, was self-imposed.

Well, you can't complain, so you have no voice within the system of belief. If you complain people will just tell you to leave. The people who remain are under a powerful sort of self-imposed restraint. On the other hand, they can adhere to the groupthink by degrees (how much they meditate, do service, etc) so they can still make comparisons within the system even though the range of comparison is limited. For most people that gives them the ability to eventually walk away. However, as we know, that may take a long time for some.

The 'monkey's hand in the cookie jar' analogy is probably more important for premies in the short term than the psychological manipulation you mention though. I mean the idea that you'll have to give up the mediation if you exit, and that mediation is a real and often valuable experience. That's what kept me involved. I regarded all that 'surrender the reigns of your life to the guru' as just so much poetic imagery. I really didn't understand it or take it seriously (because all those psychedelics made me dumb) so the K/Guru connection, and the desire to work at it until it 'produced' was what kept me engaged. Four years of getting little result, and getting nowhere with my life, started a process of doubt that eventually let me out. I mean, the door was open and I just drifted out. Many people did this. Katie, me, others.

Before you attempt to minimise the impact of damaged personal credibility, consider the fact that most victims of cons never report them because of the shame factor. We still don't know the extent of bank fraud, for instance, because banks consider the amount lost a small price to pay for keeping their reputations. How different is it likely to be for frightened individuals?

I personally think that this dynamic is what keeps some premies in there long term. The longer you stay in the more incentive you have to hang in there. It's a little bit like the chronic gambler syndrome. The more you lose the more you have to hang around to recoup your losses. For most people the idea of a 'sunk cost' is pretty foreign. And lack of self esteem reinforces that.

What crimes has Maharaji committed? How can he ever be made to face his victims, as victims they surely are. How are the victims ever going to be able to recover from their experiences and feel okay about themselves if all we ever do is to debate the subject at an intellectual level? I think that this is why Jim gets angry, it's certainly true for me.

I think about it on a theoretical level for two reasons. 1. It helps me understand how the G/D dynamic is different from other forms of authoritarianism, and therefore gives me handles that I might think about to take that control away; 2. The other forms of authoritarianism are, in the long run, probably more important. Hate to say it, but it's probably true. And if that's the case then what I learn here might help me deal with those other problems.

On the other hand I see why you get so frustrated, because the mechanisms are so invisible. It puts you in this place where you have to make very difficult arguments that most people just dismiss. It's a little like the notion that TV violence plays a role in fomenting crime. It becomes very difficult to make a case that profiting from such psychological exploitation is even anti-social, let alone criminal. People who try to make those arguments are at a terrible disadvantage. I feel the same way about the mechanism of market failure that Gates uses to maintain his monopoly.

I think that getting even with M is more critical for those who stayed in a long time, unlike myself. We could take a poll, but I think there would be a clear relationship between how long you were in and how angry you are. The fact is, however, that the sort of psychological manipulation that harmed so many is not criminal, at least not prosecutable. Tax evasion is. In my opinion you drain away his financial power by focusing on the monkey's fist in the cookie jar, so that short termers get out before the self esteem dynamic starts to get a hold on them. When he gets weak financially he'll start making mistakes that will allow a frontal attack on criminal behavior. That will make the long termers who left feel better. I still don't know what to do about the long termers that haven't left. Do you?

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 07:06:28 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Defining the problem.
Message:
Ouch Scott,

Discussing this stuff with you is real hard work but if it helps us to define a strategy or some sort of protocol for dealing with Maharaji, then good.

I regarded all that 'surrender the reigns of your life to the guru' as just so much poetic imagery.

I think this is the key in many ways. Something that you have not committed yourself to cannot truly hurt you. Conversely, things that you truly desire can be used against you. Any adolescent experimenting with relationships knows this.

The trouble is, if we do not commit and desire nothing then we are not truly human. To be alive and functioning is to be vulnerable. To be too aware of our vulnerability is paranoia and we cease to be fully alive to the possibilities of human existence. This is where the search for spiritual truth comes in, to have our cake (human existence) and eat it (experience all the possibilities).

Seekers read all the scriptures available about past seekers and their paths and come to the conclusion that they need a guide, someone who has gone before and they set off down the road. This someone can have many names and Maharaji has most of them covered (Guru, Master, Lord et al). He and his ilk stand at the crossroads of the path with a fucking great net labelled Whatever you want is here.

The problem is not that we are vulnerable (to greater or lesser degrees), that is not our fault, nor is it something that can be mitigated by education. It is the normal human condition. The problem is that Maharaji, and others, take advantage of that condition knowingly and for gain (money, power, whatever) to the long-term disadvantage of the seeker. And, I say again, all within a free and democratic society.

I know that it is hard to find anything to pin on Maharaji, even harder to make him ackowledge his mis-deeds and thus help those who suffer to get over it. But that is no reason to stop trying, even if it only results in making others more aware. Maybe society, as it continues to develop systems of government, needs to take these phenomena into account.

I love your posts Scott, you really make me work.

Regards

Richard
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:20:21 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Richard and Scott
Subject: Great discourse!
Message:
Sorry to butt in...but I love this paragraph. I think it precisely pinpoints the situatuon. Thanks for the clarity and insight, oops I mean perspicacity.

The problem is not that we are vulnerable (to greater or lesser degrees), that is not our fault, nor is it something that can be mitigated by education. It is the normal human condition. The problem is that Maharaji, and others, take advantage of that condition knowingly and for gain (money, power, whatever) to the long-term disadvantage of the seeker.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:44:08 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Defining the problem.
Message:
Richard:

Away from the theoretical for a moment, I recall the way I felt about that 'surrender the reigns' statement. Having emerged from the sixties alternative culture I had already heard a lot of that sort of stuff, but what meant something to me was whether I could make it as a worker. Taking the passive stance that the 'reigns' statement implies was sort of like: 'Sure, you drive for awhile. I'm tired anyway. I'll just get in the back seat and take a nap. If there's anything you want just let me know.' I told you I was drugged out stupid. But when Rajeshwar said something about doing something with all your heart, soul, and mind I experienced that as a real commitment. But what caused us to rebel against our traditions and open he door to Maharaji is not the same thing that makes him attractive everywhere.

There are a lot of new premies in the former iron-curtain countries. I had a conversation about this with Mili that was enlightening. He had been raised in the Marxist religion, which basically took care of all your thinking for you. The downfall of Marxism left a lot of disillusioned and uncertain people in those countries. This explains, in part, the rise of the old racist ethnocentric ideologies, but it also explains people like Mili. It must be extraordinary to have the ground jerked from under you like that. I think Mili has his doubts, but he really lacks the superstructure to be able to even voice them. Having to take the uncompromising position he adopted here was very uncomfortable, but he couldn't come right out and agree with the detractors. That would have left him with nothing.

I'm just guessing, but for Mili and his ilk it's probably a matter of balancing long term goals against short term necessity. I don't mean he thinks about this consciously, but it's an enormous leap from the sort of cradle to grave ideological security blanket he grew up in to a free-form no-holds-barred democratic marketplace. The Maharaji thing is just a stopover on the road to westernization. It probably even makes him popular with 'chicks.' Betty Friedan has sold about 50 (fifty) copies of the 'Feminine Mystique' in the iron curtain countries since the fall of communism (so she says). A book about how to catch a man is selling in the millions per annum.

I just started to read the Jurgensmeyer book, on the Rhadasoami tradition. I haven't read enough to be critical of his overall theory, but basically he says that Rhadasoami, or Sant Mat, which is the tradition to which Maharaji belongs, provides answers to some of the main social dilemmas people have to face regarding 'modernity.' If his analysis is correct then it is probably here to stay, at least for a while. It's the fastest growing religion in India, and among the Diaspora. But Maharaji has made fundamental changes to his 'mission' that have divorced it from the larger family of Rhadasoami. No satsang, is the big one. According to Jurgensmeyer without that component it is no longer Rhadasoami and therefore fails to meet some of the requirements that have made it a critical piece in the social network of meaning. He's distorted some of the other basic components as well. So Maharaji has, ironically, made some of the same tradeoffs as Mili, only with much greater risk. He has innovated his way out of short term problems into a long term fiasco. He is isolated from the main tradition that spawned him, is floundering for followers, has little appreciable charisma of his own, and can't go back to his roots. If the desire is to do away with or get even with Maharji then I think it is immanently possible. Just want to keep the big picture in mind.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:50:34 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Children of the Revolution
Message:
Richard,

Excellent points and I agree entirely. The system is set such that all good comes from Maharaji and all bad comes from the premies, and/or 'the world.' It's a very insidious system and very hard to see if you are on the inside of it.

One point I would like to add, however, is that I think many premies, including me, did have a realization at some point that the costs were not worth the benefits of following Maharaji. This is a tough thing for Maharaji to counter because it doesn't necessarily mean that the premie is doubting Maharaji, just that for whatever reason the system has not worked for them and they have to leave, more out of exhaustion than anything else. This was my experience, and once out, I began to get some perspective. I think this experience was true for a bunch of us who lived for years in the ashrams, did service in the mission, etc., the trashed everything else in our lives. Hence, a big exodus of premies in the early 80s, most of whom have probabaly not returned.

I think Maharaji has attempted to address this by asking LESS of the premies. No more ashrams, less meditation, no satsang, occasional programs, and even dumping all his grandiose decrees that we would bring peace to the world. This helps mitigate the exhaustion factor at least somewhat and it allows premies to think they are living their own lives and that very little is demanded of them to be a premie. It seems more like a free gift that they have fun with and Maharaji says crap like 'just enjoy your life.' Of course, he is, at the same time saying the 'you need me' crap too, but contradiction never seemed to bother the lord of the universe too much.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 19:29:58 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Children of the Revolution
Message:
Nice points, JW.

This whole time I have been wondering how people reconcile the changes in the movement from LOTU to meditation teacher. (Because I can't!) After reading your post I think I understand better.

I agree with you that M is asking less of the premies (ahem, 'students') now. That probably explains why the old timers who never really devoted completely in the olden days like it so much now. They can have their cake and eat it, too. (Maharaji and their lives) Of course they really aren't free but since that is the message and that is the illusion, then they like to think so.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:44:57 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Hey, that's MY routine!
Message:
John,

I have to admit that, if we were going to actually FILM a fake Maharaji documentary (kind of like a Spinal Tap only using a 'real' Lord of the Universe giving an unreal set of interviews [ seeing as that's the only kind we're ever going to get] you've just earned a place as a writer. I did my own take on this a while ago (you can find it on David Stirling's old pages) but your short dialogue is fuller. I like it.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:59:28 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, that's MY routine!
Message:
Thanks.

That would be SO much fun to make, a fake documentary a al spinal tap. YES!!

And you know who would be perfect for playing the young M, the kid in 'the christmas story'. Well, I guess he's too old now to play the guru as early teen. John Candy would have been great as a grown up M. I can see Susan Sarandon as Marilyn.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:15:01 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Not Danny Devito?
Message:
I guess he's getting a little old, huh? No, John Candy would be great. Susan Sarandon? Yeah, possibly. How about Mia Sarvino?
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:12:56 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not Danny Devito?
Message:
Bridgette Fonda. she'd be great, the right combo of dingy blonde
mixed with dramatic intensity.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 19:36:58 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: How about Tatoo?
Message:
Remember that guy who played opposite Ricardo Montaban (sp?) on Fantasy island? You know, Tatoo! He would make a great M-even if he is too short. The voice is even great...'da plane! da plane!'

For Marolyn...Mia Sorviano is too spunky. We need someone a bit more passive/whiny. How about Mia Farrow? or a drunk Farrah Fawcett/Jessica Lang type...
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 21:18:16 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: How about Tatoo?
Message:
I think he died.
The midget guy in Twim Peaks maybe? The one Laura whispered to?
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:22:10 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: John
Subject: Hey, that's MY routine!
Message:
Dear John,
Yes The Christmas Story is maybe the funniest movie ever! And Spinal Tap too. Maybe we can all meet at the premier!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:14:18 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: John
Subject: brilliant work...
Message:
I know it.. YOU write the 'King of the Hill'
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 09:14:41 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: Gee thanks, but
Message:
what's 'King of the Hill'? (I am somewhat culturally challenged.)
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:22:23 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Gee thanks, but
Message:
It's a cartoon on Fox Sunday nights. It is really funny and sometimes even touching. Satirizes much political correctness in a unique way. Send them your stuff you might get hired.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 19:57:17 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: Beavis and Butthead revisited
Message:
John and G's M:

King of the Hill is also done by the same guy who does Beavis and Butthead. In fact, Frank Hill is one of the characters in those movies. Only a bit part though.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 19:59:41 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I meant Hank not Frank
Message:
J and G.M.

Just a typo. How could I forget!

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 19:41:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Debating JW's
Message:
Here's a link to a really good site about the Jehovah Witness mindset and the challenges one faces in trying to reason with a member of that esteemed faith:

Debating JW (smile)

By the way, premieji or red heart, if you're reading this, I'm really looking forward to your answer to my 'call me an idiot' post below.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 20:48:02 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Debating JW's
Message:
When I was much younger and stupider (= premie as well as other things) I used to always answer the door. It's was some Pavlov's
dog thing. A knock on the door = answer.
It was good prep for NOT answering the door now for my
weird druggie neighbor that thinks this is a Quickie Mart.
Anyway, I would listen politely and take the dumb Watchtowers, it never occurred to me to just shut the door in their faces! Or not answer! I mean they were the ones being rude.
Scary people, I remember one - my best friend's mom in junior high. She hated me because I was Irish Catholic. She slapped around her
daugher (my friend) in front of me once because seh had let her 'worldly friend' over to play instead of cleaning the house.
My friend was 11 years old. Nice.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 21:52:28 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Selena
Subject: Debating JW's
Message:
Dear Selena,
I forgot about your 'Quick Mart' and laughed all over again remembering it. To funny! Thanks!
Love,
Robyn
I have a couple choice JW stories, not you Joe, what initials to be saddled with! I think I've told them already though.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 22:53:34 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Debating JW's
Message:
Selena:

When I was a political canvasser we used to sneak up and watch the JWs practicing their 'rap,' through an open window. Since we were more or less in the same business it was enlightening to see how they did it. I have even talked a few JWs into contributing money to the political organization I worked for (anonymously of course). They looked really sheepish as they were making out the check, like it was a mortal sin. I always wondered how they rationalized it. The sweetest people were the 'Old Believers,' a Russian Orthodox sect in Silverton Oregon. In spite of the language difference those folks understood oppression. Really nice people, unless you happened to be an apostate.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:25:40 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Debating JW's
Message:
Yes they can be rude can't they.Not in their manner which is usually exemplary,but in the very fact that they knock on your door uninvited to propogate to you.

They are everywhere.A long time ago when we lived in the woods(really remote rural area)we were awoken by an urgent pounding on our front door.I went to answer it (very hung over and still in need of mucho sleep)thinking it must be some sort of emergency!Nobody banged on our door like that on a sunday morning before.When I answered the door to my surprise it wasn't anything more important then a couple of JW's looking to lead us to salvation.I stammered/mumbled a 'No,please .No thank you' and as I watched them through bleary bloodshot eyes sauntering off our property I began to think of the future and added 'And please don't bother coming back here.We're really not interested.'

They never came back thank jehovah.However it may have been fun to have them in and explain satanism to them and why we felt that they should join our coven.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:22:56 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Debating JW's
Message:
Does anybody have any experiences selling And It Is Divine door-to-door? That was required for a brief period in the mid 1970s. I've never had the nerve for that kind of thing and remember weasling out of it somehow. The premies at IHQ had to go and try and sell Divine Times on the street at one point, also. How embarassing!

I remember as a very early premie in 1972 in England we were told to use our spare time to go out and 'do propagation', i.e. just plain talk to people on the street about M, something I was NOT comfortable doing. I went to this one big park in Newcastle and got into a conversation with a militant Christian guy, who became incensed at the bullshit I was propounding and wanted to drag me back to his apartment to get some quotes from the Bible with which to refute my nonsense. He actually grabbed my arm and started dragging me, so I broke free and ran away. End of public propagation for me.

I must say I admire Jehovah's Witnesses, not for what they believe, but for their resiliant ability to continue knocking on people's doors in the face of the huge amount of negative vibes and verbal abuse and rejection they must experience by doing so. A true testament to the human spirit and power of beliefs.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:19:38 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Door to door blues
Message:
Selling AIID door to door?
Yep, been there, done that.

I actually had a great time. I love going door to door because I love to get into people's houses and see how they live, look at their furniture (if it's covered with plastic or not), where the t.v. is positioned, etc. Some people of course, the smart ones, won't let you in.

The issue I was selling had the little girls eating ice cream cones on the cover. I think. or maybe they were wishing they had ice cream cones. I don't know. Whatever. It helped launch me into a 'satsang' about children and 'the heart of a child' and that 'thing' we are all looking for, which then led into 'that empty place inside'. And we try to fill it with ice cream cones, and relationships, but what we seek is not out there somewhere it's within inside each one of us.

oops sorry, got carried away.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 15:22:06 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Door to door blues
Message:
God John, I swear you are terminally positive. Sounds like you always had a great time!

I remember AIID sales and I hated it with a passion, but felt I had to overcome my resistence to do service for the lord. Guru Maharaj Ji had allowed us to sell this ridiculous magazine door to door because he loved us so much and wanted us to realize knowledge and be more open to his love.

One time another premie and I sat wearing our Earth Shoes in the living room of this family that was just so loving. They were just about the nicest people I ever met. They LOVED listening to us blather about love and the purpose of life. They ended up buying a TWO YEAR subscription to AIID, and that was almost unheard of. NOBODY did that!!! We were considered excellent devotees for accomplishing this, but really it was just nice people and a nice connection. Of course the magazine folded about 2 months after that and so these people paid money for nothin. Not that the magazine said much of anything anyway. I recall the one with the kids on the cover. Then there was the one with Yuri Geller.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:26:15 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Repressed
Message:
'God John, I swear you are terminally positive. Sounds like you always had a great time!'

Yeah, it's sad but true. I mean, think of it. After a fairly decent upbringing from a set of non-alcoholic, non-abusive, and basically great parents, I decided to thumb my nose at everything I knew in my heart of hearts to be true and sensible, and bow down and kiss the feet of a pudgy adolescent dork from India. And I still claim I had a pretty good time doing it.

Obviously I must be repressing something!

btw, what's up with PaulR? I could not find anything inoffensive about your post. Strange.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 17:22:28 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Repressed
Message:
John,

I think you might be the kind of person who would have a great time doing almost anything. So, you might not be repressing anything. Maybe you just DID have a good time, because you're a kind of 'glass-is-half-full' person who makes the best of things. I think to a degree I did that too, and I will say that I had fun part of the time in the cult, especially in the early years, mostly because there were a number of premies I liked and who were very entertaining and because I believed we were a part of something significant that would really help the world. We had fun mostly in spite of Maharaji, not because of him.

It was really after I got into 'full time service' that it was really miserable. Then, my ENTIRE life was sucked up into that world. Before, I at least spent the workday surrounded by normal people who talked about normal things.

I don't know what I did to offend PaulR. I haven't a clue.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 21:35:18 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Repressed-John
Message:
'Yeah, it's sad but true. I mean, think of it. After a fairly decent upbringing from a set of non-alcoholic, non-abusive, and basically great parents, I decided to thumb my nose at everything I knew in my heart of hearts to be true and sensible, and bow down and kiss the feet of a pudgy adolescent dork from India.'

I can relate to that. Don't feel bad, John. If I had been older than nine, I'd have been right there with you. As things were, I just got grounded for WANTING to do the above.

VP
My parents found a letter I wrote to the 'Lord' in '72
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 08:42:58 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Door to door blues
Message:
You sound like me doing propogation...woops...helping Maharaji do propogation. (he is the only one who can actually do propogation - did you know that?)
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 12:53:02 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: in my mind again
Message:
Jeez I forgot! Hey, that's right, only M can give satsang. I mean, even back when we were SUPPOSED to give satsang, it was understood that WE were not actually doing it. Unless of course, it came out sounding stupid, or wrong. Then it was our fault.

Close the eyes, merge with M inside, turn off the brain, open the mouth, let the grace flow, let M actually create the words on the tip of your tongue, and when the words are not actually there yet, then you say, 'and...it's just soooo...incredible, I mean really, ya know, it's like, I was like, meditating this morning, and I just...knew that...Maraji was the one breathing me. I mean, that it was like HIM, ya know. and it was like sooo beautiful, just to know that HE is here, and, I don't know, I mean I don't know anything, I mean I am nothing, He is everything, and it's like...'

OUCH!!!
oh wow, you won't believe this! A bolt of lightning just came out of the sky and zapped me! Do you think it could be a sign?
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:19:49 (EST)
From: Scott
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Debating Jay Dubbs
Message:
Joy:

RE: I must say I admire Jehovah's Witnesses, not for what they believe, but for their resiliant ability to continue knocking on people's doors in the face of the huge amount of negative vibes and verbal abuse and rejection they must experience by doing so. A true testament to the human spirit and power of beliefs.

In my experience the skill required for this is to have a terrible short term memory. As a political canvasser I was occasionally spat upon, pelted with rocks, chased by dogs, etc. Usually I had forgotten all about those rejections by the time I reached the next door. It's a cultivated capacity.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 23:04:42 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: AIID door to door
Message:
Hi Joy -
My husband and I were just talking about this last night. I DID sell And It Is Divine subscriptions door to door in Northwest Washington. (He couldn't believe it, because I am pretty shy about asking people to do things for me). I actually sold a bunch of subscriptions, which I felt awful about after the magazine went under. I also passed out leaflets for programs on the street in downtown DC. And I went into stores and tried to get store owners to put up poster advertising programs in their windows. I hated doing all these things, but there weren't many opportunities for service for non-ashram premies and you HAD to do service to TRULY experience knowledge, so I just gritted my teeth and did them.

P.S. I know I've talked about this on here before, but do you remember how they printed an enormous amount of two particular issues of AIID? I can't remember what year - 1973 or 1974? It was after M said something about how AIID was going to have the highest circulation of any magazine in the world. Anyway, there were stacks of these old and out of date AIID's in the ashram, and someone got the bright idea that the people who wanted to do service should go around to doctors and dentists offices and ask if we could leave the magazines in their waiting rooms (I guess it didn't matter that they were out of date!) So I did that too.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:49:43 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Debating JW's
Message:
My dad had quite a sense of humor, and being an Irish Catholic he was put off that the Jehovah's Witnesses denigraded the Virgin Mary, among other cherised Catholic icons. Anyhow, he used to LOVE it when JWs came to our house. He would listen politely and then say that he and his wife were too much into sex and alcohol to be interested, but thank you very much. If they asked where my mother was, he said she wasn't home because she was in jail for 30 days. Usually they would get offended and leave at that point. My mother was always mortified, but we kids thought it was great. My dad loved telling those stories to his friends, which mortified my mother even more.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:04:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Debating JW's
Message:
I mentioned this before but a lawyer colleague of mine, Gary Botting, wrote a couple of sharp, critical histories of the JWs (which cult he was raised in). One in particular, The Orwellian World of the Jehovah's Witnesses, outlines the bizarre revisionism the cult went through in the last twenty years. Orwellian is right.

I, too, love inviting JWs into my home. I show them Gary's books and they're dumbfounded.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:31:02 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Debating JW's
Message:
I recall in college reading about the history of the JWs, more from a political perspective. From what I recall, it was started in Rock Island, Illinois, in the late 19th or early 20th century, partly as a reaction to the waves of immigration coming into the US from Eastern and Southern Europe. The founder was very concerned about maintaining the pristine protestant values of the society. A major underpinning of the group was therefore utense propogation, which every member is required to perform, which he thought was necessary to convert the Catholic and Jewish masses arriving on the country's pristine shores.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 17:41:37 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Debating JW's
Message:
Joe:

Just for the sake of balancing that nativist perspective on the Jay Dubbs, there were a small number of them in Germany during the holocaust who were interred in concentration camps. They could have exited the camps simply by disavowing their religious convictions. Very few of them did. There was an ex-JW site on the Paradise server that a friend of mine found when she tuned into our site. She said they sounded very much like the ex-premies.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 19:27:31 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Debating JW's
Message:
One guy I know was raised in a JW family. He hated the whole trip. He did receive K but never got into it. He went to a few programs and enjoyed the group high. He knew all about the message though. I must call him. He had a great sense of humour.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 21:54:00 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Debating Mormons
Message:
I like inviting the Mormons in, myself. They are still requiring their young men to do a couple of years of propagation. They ride bikes to your house and are very nice and clean-cut. The best part is that they don't know SQUAT about their religion.

I like to ask them how they defend their baptism for the dead (where you can save someone's soul after they die by baptising it. This is one of the main reasons that the Mormons have those extensive geneology records...so every Mormon can save their ancestors! It cracks me up.) Anyway, usually they don't know what in the heck I am talking about. No one told them about this or several other points of interest in their doctrine.

My favorite historical question is to ask them if they knew that Brigham Young gave the young boy Joseph Smith Junior (the heir apparent to the church before Brigham Young laid his claim) loaded dueling pistols for a gift...

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:21:16 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Debating JW's
Message:
Jim,

I thought this was an excellent article. Thanks for the link. You may have exposed some of your tactics, however. :)

The conclusion gave me some pause:

At issue here is not truth, but need. The Witnesses' belief system provides them with a psychological foundation whereby they can make the world more comprehensible.

And

'Deprogramming' -- the isolation of an individual and the systematic destruction of his beliefs -- can be a callous procedure that takes away a person's security and gives nothing in return. The void must be filled if you are attempting to 'do good'. If that is not your aim, then what is your purpose? Are you trying to prove to yourself that your ideas are correct? Moreover, does the person need this kind of help? What is the benefit?

I'm wondering what people think about this.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:38:30 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Debating JW's
Message:
Gerry,

Yes, I have some reservations about the last bit too. For one thing, I think there's nothing wrong with trying to prove to onesself that one's ideas are correct and I don't like the suggested disparaging of that. I also don't think you ahve to fill someone's 'void' when you help them strip off some kind of parasitic thought structure. That'd be a hard bill to fill regarding anyone who's adopted a total world view such as premies or JWs do.

Otherwise, I think the article has a lot to offer.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:57:45 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Filling the void
Message:
Yes, it is a ridiculous idea to think that there is a 'void' to be filled. I mean, it's a big wide world out there, with plenty of choices and plenty of things to do.

Interesting thing, belief systems. I takes a little work to exam one's own BS's and the efforts is usually rewarding. I like to ask: Is this (particular BS) true? Can I know for sure if it is? What would it be like if I let go of it? and How am I benefiting from holding this belief system?

Personally, I like striping away BS's. It's kinda like 'traveling light.' Some many BS's are things we have internalized from sources outside of our own experience: parents, religion, friends, advertising, media, etc. A whole lot of it does not serve us well and in fact, can be quite harmful.

The tricky part is that a lot this stuff is absorbed almost unconscously. That's why I like to exam them when an issue comes up, ie I'm pissed off about something or offended, or even highly attracted.

BTW, did you ever read Colin Wilson's SF novel The Mind Parasites? An fascinating precursor to the memes idea, IMO.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:12:22 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Filling the void
Message:
BTW, did you ever read Colin Wilson's SF novel The Mind Parasites? An fascinating precursor to the memes idea, IMO.

No, but I used to like Colin Wilson a lot. In particular, The Philosopher's Stone. Ever read that one?

As for my own BS, I checked about twenty years ago and there was nothing so I figure I'm pretty clear.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:43:00 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Filling the void
Message:
As for my own BS, I checked about twenty years ago and there was nothing so I figure I'm pretty clear.

That's pretty funny!

The Philosopher's Stone is out of print and I've never seen it in the local used book stores. I'm also looking for Dawkins and The Moral Animal. I got into CW through his true crime stuff. His ideas on sociopaths ring true for the BM.

Everybody has belief systems. It's how we operate in the world. Some just conform to reality a little (or a lot) more than others. For example, atheism is a BS. My point is that we don't always consciously choose what to believe, or, are sold a bill of goods with sometimes exceedingly bad repercusions. And it's valuable to check 'em out once in a while to see if they still fit.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 14:55:56 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Filling the void
Message:
Gerry,

By the way, sorry for that 'threat' you little imposter you!

I've found that one of the very few good things about getting older is that I am less sure about what it is I believe. I think people in their teens and 20s tend to be much more extreme and rigid in their beliefs, and perhaps more open to adopting a new, complicated, belief system. I know I was. I think that's why so many of us adopted the Maharaji BS at such a young age, and I think that fact made it more difficult for some of us to leave.

Also, I found that the Maharaji BS built on some belief systems I already had. The ashram, for example, fit well into my Catholic morals learned as a child, and concepts like 'sin' and 'grace' and 'redemption' all used in BM's cult, either under those names or something else that made the same thing. Substitute 'mind' for 'the devil' or 'evil' and see BM as 'the messiah' and it all sort of fit.

I also think that's why premies who came from catholic and jewish backgrounds were disproportionately represented in the cult.

JW
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 21:35:42 (EST)
From: jehovah's witless
Email: witless@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Proof, if proof were needed.
Message:
Hey, don't knock it till you've read the evidence...

'The science of mathematical probability offers striking proof that the Genesis creation account must have come from a source with knowledge of the events. The account lists 10 major stages in this order: (1) a beginning; (2) a primitive earth in darkness and enshrouded in heavy gases and water; (3) light; (4) an expanse or atmosphere; (5) large areas of dry land; (6) land plants; (7) sun, moon and stars discernable in the expanse, and seasons beginning; (8) sea monsters and flying creatures; (9) wild and tame beasts, mammals; (10) man. Science agrees that these stages occurred in this general order. What are the chances that the writer of Genesis just guessed that order? The same as if you picked at random the numbers 1 to 10 from a box, and drew them in consecutive order. The chances of doing this on your first try are 1 in 3,628,800! So, to say the writer just happened to list the foregoing events in the right order without getting the facts from somewhere is not realistic.'
['Life - How did it get here? By evolution or by creation?'
Published by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York Inc. and the International Bible Students' Association.]

How could I have been so stupid? I mean to say, unless you'd actually been there, you'd never have thought of putting 'Beginning' as number (1), or of introducing 'Land Plants' AFTER 'Large Areas of Dry Land', would you?

Nah, don't worry, I'm taking the piss!

Don't you just love they say 'Science agrees that these stages occurred in this GENERAL order' (emphasis mine), then talk about it as if it was DEFINITELY the right order.

What a load of cack.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 21:58:09 (EST)
From: mademelaugh
Email: hahaha
To: jehovah's witless
Subject: Science made Stupid
Message:
To do it properly takes a scientist:

http://www.moonboy.com/sms/index.htm
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 11:39:13 (EST)
From: Now I No
Email: None
To: mademelaugh
Subject: Science made Stupid
Message:
Thanks for the link. I never really understood evolution until I read this site! It's changed my life. Maybe even Enrique, Quique, Keekay, Kike or whatever might understand it. After all, he are one.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 18:01:40 (EST)
From: Al
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Critical Thinking
Message:
I was watching a show on The Learning Channel the other night and it was about bridges and how they are engineered.

They discussed the collapse of the San Francisco Oakland bridge 10 years ago and one of the witnesses spoke about how motorcycles were coming at traffic the wrong way screaming that the bridge was out but no one believed them because their confidence was in a bridge which was designed for earthquakes! As you may remember the traffic continued and there was this one car that plunged off and fell down to the portion below that had collapsed.

It must be very human of people to ignore warnings and hold to their beliefs and that would explain why premie's who visit this site dismiss all of what they read here as not true.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 18:08:11 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Al
Subject: Critical Thinking
Message:
It must be very human of people to ignore warnings and hold to their beliefs and that would explain why premie's who visit this site dismiss all of what they read here as not true.

I'm not sure they dismiss what they read.
Do you mean they dismiss FACTS reported by exes?
Do you think they dismiss our feelings towards m&k and that they think we have some other purpose we don't tell? Some conspiracy against I don't know what?
Do you think they dismiss us as ex-premies, thinking that we've never really been premies like them?
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 18:38:32 (EST)
From: Al
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Critical Thinking
Message:
Yes. Yes. Yes.

And most importantly they dismiss us because Maharaji does. And whatever is good for the goose is good for the gander! Of course, Maharaji has traditionally used swans to represent the relationship between master and devotee but swans are even more aggressive than geese so I think they should change it. Besides, being able to poke some fun and say that Maharaji and his followers are silly geese, brings a smile or a chuckle, which is healthy I think.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 19:48:29 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Al
Subject: Critical Thinking
Message:
I think many premies assume, believe, rationalize as follows, when it comes to thinking about us ex-premies:

1. Ex-premies never really HAD the experience BM offers and, especially those from the 70s, in the ashrams, etc., were just into the whole hindu/cult experience and never had an experience inside and that's what really counts. It's unfortunate, but nevertheless true. We should feel sorry for them.

2. Maybe ex-premies HAD the experience but they lost it, got in their minds, got confused, failed to understand, etc. So, now it's been so long that they've forgotten there could be such a beautiful experience and we should feel sorry for them or else be really angry at them for their own good, to try to get them back on the one true path.

3. Maybe some of the more liberal-minded premies realize that knowledge is limited, not for everybody, and that BM screwed up in the past. But he was young, and it was mostly PAM, and the premies who caused the problems and BM, when he got control of things, corrected what was happening. And it doesn't matter anyway, because the experience inside is all that counts.

4. It's all Maharaji's lila. He's in complete control and only he decides, by his grace, who recognizes him and who doesn't. Like he said in 1978, he's 'never lost a premie' and even us exes are not 'lost' it's all a matter of timing.

5. Maybe things do look like kind of a failure when you think about how dismal BM has performed in terms of bringing peace to the world, but it's beyond our comprehension and any moment now the peace bomb will finally explode and the torrents of people will come to the lotus feet. And as for BM and his money, extravagant lifestyle and all the rest, who cares?
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 20:38:49 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Critical Thinking
Message:
It true! Funny but true. I know people who use one or more
of those rationalizations, they even vocalize them.
One step further: they say it about anything that happens
now as well as to justify the past.
As in ' I've always felt sorry for M for
the sorry lot of people he has around him'

I swear a premie said that to me in January, it was one of the
things tht got me posting here. It scared me!!

Al, I believe critical thinking is a learned bahavior and requires
that a) The person respect thinking and the judging and
assessing process
b) They live a lifestyle where they can see tangible
rewards for that critical thinking.
Premies are told all the time to dis the mind. M makes fun
of ego, or ambitions... so the thinking mechanism is sort
of put on hold.
Strangely enough however - I have often noticed a certain reverse discrimination in premies; by this I mean that many are in awe or impressed by those premies that did manage to acquire wealth or a prestigious carreer. As if they subconciously know how hard that is to do. Odd, isn't it?
I remember how all these people were clustered around Michael Nouri
in LB in Dec. - it was icky they were fawning for Gods sake!!
The same people who just heard their master make fun of the ego.
go figure. Critical thinking NOT.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 21:00:35 (EST)
From: Al
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Critical Thinking
Message:
So Nouri is still around eh? What ever happened to George Harrison's wife? Did she stick with Maharaji or did she quit him like her husband quit his Guru? I remember a very expensively put together booklet with different premie's sharing their 'experience' (I agree with Jim, that catch all phrase drives me nuts too, even though I find myself using it), and she was one of them in it. I remember seeing the guy who played in Miami Vice looking for his seat at one event years ago. Everyone has always been excited by famous people with Knowledge. And M has always hinted at the fact that there are famous people worldwide who view videos in private. I remember hearing that some were political leaders and it only made me more ardent in my service thinking that if world leaders had this Knowledge the earth would be so much better to live in...

Knowing how it is wherever M and his premie's are I should have been able to see the obvious and know that that would be the worst thing that could happen. I mean if at each event M and his premie's still struggle with how to stay in their hearts and not in there 'minds' what could we expect?
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 21:26:19 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Al
Subject: Critical Thinking
Message:
Yes politically inclined individuals with any strong
religious/ moral thing scare me. And premies are as rigid
as the rest of them. 'I know this just because I have
seen it'

heh, sound familiar?
Nouri was there. Don't know about any other celebrities.
But if the Miami Vice guy you meant was Don Johnson then
I feel regrets that I wasn't more attentive in my groupie
days as a stage-hand for the Lord. oh well.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:09:27 (EST)
From: Al
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Critical Thinking
Message:
Not Don but his partner was the one I saw.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:53:10 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Al
Subject: Critical Thinking
Message:
Yup.Philip Michael Thomas.Saw him at a program in florida.Also read an interview with him in a TV guide several years back where he used M's 'Yesterday is a cancelled check....'quote.No,he didn't credit M.

Who knows,maybe M borrowed it from him?
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 22:40:07 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Al
Subject: Critical Thinking
Message:
Al and Selena:

I have to admit, I still don't know who Michael Nouri is. Was he in something I'd recognize?

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 22:51:23 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Critical Thinking
Message:
Lead actor in FLASHDANCE, 1984.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 02:05:16 (EST)
From: Emile
Email: None
To: Al
Subject: Critical Thinking
Message:
It's not whether what we read hear is true or not, it's that it doesn't matter.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:17:48 (EST)
From: Al
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: Critical Thinking
Message:
Help me here...if it doesn't matter than it's a bit like being asked if you want to go somewhere and you reply that it doesn't matter to you. In other words you are content to stay where you are. So this means that you have no use in moving, it serves no purpose or benifet. So if I follow you then and what is written here does not matter to you, then please enlighten me as to why you are here? I find that if something is of no value to me, ie: does not matter, than I don't waste my time with it. It would seem that not only are you not using critical thinking facilties to descern what is true or not true, but you are spending precious time occupied by something that does not matter to you.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:01:47 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Al
Subject: Critical Thinking
Message:
The 'it doesn't matter' syndrome is amok in premiedom..
unless of course it's how close you get to sit at the Lord's feet
at an event.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:45:15 (EST)
From: Emile
Email: None
To: Al
Subject: Critical Thinking
Message:
I guess what i was trying to say was that I don't care whether this stuff on these pages is true or not. It really doesn't affect me or my relationship with Maharaji.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 07:56:49 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: True or Not?
Message:
If MJ is a fake (not the Lord of the Universe), why would you want to follow him?

I don't know when you jumped on this train, but I've been around for a while. I have eaten his lines and squelched my own feelings and desires for years. I am no further ahead in any way.

I have been listening to the fact that nothing matters for 24 years. I do believe it now. I am smart, attractive, have a good education, but I can't think of a thing I want or want to accomplish. Pretty pathetic, isn't it? I have been mildly chronically depressed for years. Why? It doesn't matter.

It matters to me? I owe it to myself to get well. You owe it to YOURSELF. Please read The Guru Papers. These authors are independant of this trip and may shed some light on your condition.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 02:08:30 (EST)
From: Emile
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: True or Not?
Message:
I'm sorry you feel that Maharaji is responsible for how you feel. I always thought i was the only one responsible for my happiness or sadness. Maharaji is only offering an option. If you don't want to take it,don't. So why all the resentment and bitterness,when anything to do with Maharaji is optional and always has been. I've been a student since '73.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 12:15:42 (EST)
From: Mole
Email: HaHaHaHaHaHaHa
To: Everyone
Subject: NEWS BULLET-IN
Message:
BIG TROUBLE IN PREMIEDUMB!

Satsang Special:

a) a half-hour, specially prepared fireside discourse with MJ:

1. One thing's beyond question--this knowledge works.
2. Some people think I should be worried, but I'm not
worried.
3. It may seem that in your little community things aren't growing but they are.

b) Padarthanon phone feed

1. The ways to prepare for the program. He was alive and
his master was alive. What should he do to prepare? One,
help physically (get hall ready). Two, prepare inwardly and make sure the heart is open. Three, help financially. Even five ruppees will do. This is the invisible foundation which has supported all the programs for the last 27 years. Due to lack of preregistration, the standards have been lowered. Card-carrying aspirants people who have filled out an index card) are not the only ones invited to the programs. Anyone who has heard a video can attend Miami and Chicago. Atlantic City is for premies only. A K review will be held.

It was suggested that if premies felt inspired and comfortable, they could invite anyone who had seen a video and premies who had not been practising or coming around for some time. Of course, only if one felt INSPIRED AND COMFORTABLE. E X P E C T A C A L L S O O N !

There will be no other programs this year for North America, so you better come to these ones.

Of course, MJ could surprise us.

2. Facts and figures guy: Only $25 000 has been collected, so far for the Atlantic City Event on July 16, 1998 and
many seats are available for the other programs Miami on
July 4, 1998 and Chicago on July 22, 1998.

The registration cost of $15 only covers 30% of the cost.
(The rest was unstated--but you know, send a donation quickly.)

An unprecedented 17 000 people received K last year.

THE PROFIT SPEAKS--AIN'T THAT A SHAME.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 12:24:05 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Mole
Subject: NEWS BULLET-IN
Message:
Does that mean that only 1 666 premies are going? I find that surprising. There were quite a few people at the Miami event on May 8-10.

When MJ says it's growing, he doesn't mean numerically but experientially.

I guess he's weeding out the wheat from the chaff!
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 12:32:10 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: NEWS BULLET-IN
Message:
Gail:

I guess he's weeding out the wheat from the chaff!

Big time! With a little ingenuity you can do quite a lot with chaff. It's ruffage.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 14:50:25 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Mole
Subject: Invisible Premies
Message:
2. Some people think I should be worried, but I'm not worried.

That would explain the special video!!

3. It may seem that in your little community things aren't growing but they are.

Just because you don't SEE people getting involved doesn't mean that they're not there, right Maharaji?? For all the money that was donated last year at North American events, and by working US and Canadian premies, only 333 people received knowledge on the continent. You just gotta work harder, Prem Pal... Spend less on yourself, maybe...
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 16:33:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mole
Subject: details??
Message:
Satsang Special:

a) a half-hour, specially prepared fireside discourse with MJ:

1. One thing's beyond question--this knowledge works.
2. Some people think I should be worried, but I'm not
worried.
3. It may seem that in your little community things aren't growing but they are.


Hi Mole,

Could you please elaborate on this? Are you talking about a new video with M saying all these things? Have you seen it? Has anyone else seen it? Can you or anyone else elaborate on #2 a bit.

Thanks a lot,

Jim
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 16:42:25 (EST)
From: Mole
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: details??
Message:
Excellent sources. Hot off the press (so to speak) from yesterday, June 28, 1998.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 16:54:04 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Mole
Subject: Q.RE: NEWS BULLET-IN
Message:
Hi
I'm a little confused by this post. You state
An unprecedented 17 000 people received K last year
Is this a quote from your source. And, if so, are they all from India or third world coutries and so there isn't any money made of these new recruits? Is that why they can't attend events?
Just wondering.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 22:54:32 (EST)
From: Mole
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Q.RE: NEWS BULLET-IN
Message:
The person giving the stats did not say.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 17:11:14 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mole
Subject: NEWS BULLET-IN
Message:
Atlantic City is for premies only. A K review will be held.

How does one prove one is a premie? Is a premie anyone who has received knowledge? Does this mean I could go to the Atlantic City program, even though I haven't practiced knowledge in 15 years and I think BM is a charlatan?

Did the Padarthanon 'phone feed' already happen, and to whom?

Only $25 000 has been collected, so far for the Atlantic City Event on July 16, 1998 and many seats are available for the other programs Miami on July 4, 1998 and Chicago on July 22, 1998.

Did Padarthanon in the phone feed, or Maharaji in the 'fireside satsang,' suggest that perhaps the shortfall in funds could be made up by NOT purchasing that new $2-4 million yacht that Mark said John Miller is currently out looking to purchase for Maharaji, (SO essential in the propogation of knowledge, we know) or that Maharaji might sell ONE out of the fleet of his luxury cars? How about that $30,000 watch he wears? How about selling a couple of those gold plumbing fixtures in one of the residences or out of his motor home?

Some people think I should be worried, but I'm not worried.

Worried about what? Us? Hey, BM, sorry to have metya, but glad I upsetya!
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 17:30:01 (EST)
From: John Smithfield-Ham
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: NEWS BULLET-IN
Message:
'that new $2-4 million yacht that Mark said John Miller is currently out looking to purchase for Maharaji'

Whatever the guru wants, it is our joy to give. It is our blessing that M is angry at us and demanding more money. That is our GREATEST JOY, when our LORD actually allows us to please HIM. We are only here for HIM, we are NOTHING, we are SCUM, we are of absolutely NO value, unless we are dedicating every waking moment to HIM, every ounce of energy in our bodies should be going to please HIM. He is HERE for US right NOW.

Oh my brethren and sistren, who have been so blessed by the Lord to be allowed to pretend to be angry at the LORD. It is all HIS lila that your vision has been clouded over and you cannot see his glory. Despaireth not, the veil of your tears shall be lifted one day and you will dance in joy at his feet again. Until then, play your parts well, shout obscenities at the Lord, they bounce off his golden form and come right back and stick on you!

We are all but bit players in HIS play!
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 17:45:26 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John Smithfield-Ham
Subject: NEWS BULLET-IN
Message:
Whatever the guru wants, it is our joy to give. It is our blessing that M is angry at us and demanding more money.

Of course, dear brother, you are right, or rather Maharaji is right and using you as his mouthpiece, which is so blissful, but if he wanted to, he could use you as a codpiece and it would be even more blissful. Yes, I LOVE his anger. It feels so good when he is pissed at all the premies, especially me, because I deserve it. Like when a program begins an entire 20 seconds late, and the lord goes ballistic, it is all his grace for us to experience his divine tantrum.

We all know that if he wanted to he could make money appear with the snap of his fingers, or maybe the passing of a divine fart. But then we would deprived of living in poverty, or at least divine credit card debt, which is so blissful in service to the lord. I mean, we would become so lost in this world if we were allowed to keep more of our own money. It is so much more beautiful to give it to the lord so he can purchase a new $2-4 million yacht by his grace. Not that we had anything to do with it, but he still gives us the feeling that he needs our money, when we know it's all grace, by his grace.

I can't wait for the knowledge review in Atlantic City, when we can find out if, by his grace, he has once again changed the techniques and whether he actually knows how to do them. That will be so blissful.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 18:00:34 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Doesn't make sense to me
Message:
I have a hard time understanding the whole trip money wise for 98.
He cancelled plenty of events: he has no money.
He wants to purchase a 2-4 $ millions yacht: where does the money come from?
2 possibilities:
1/ premies did donate that money.
Who? Where does it come from?
2/ He had to get rid of the G4. That's why he can't do that many events. He is now flying commerically. He got some money from selling the jet.

I think that in both cases IRS should have an eye on this, I hope they monitor the forum!

Any other clue?
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 18:09:23 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Doesn't make sense to me
Message:
Could it be that BM has SO much money from the past invested that he had enormous investment income?

Here's what I think.

The premies donate money to EV to run the programs, etc., buy videos and trinkets,etc. EV uses this money to pay for as much of BM's living expenses as they can. The plane, his travel expenses, perhaps pay him a salary, huge pension fund, cover his clothes, etc., maybe even own the residences much as a church owns the house the minister lives in, etc.

Then, BM makes money, possibly off royalties for the videos, possibily as an owner or more likely a director of some of the cult-businesses, donations sent DIRECTLY to him in Malibu, money from rich premies, money from properties owned in India and elsewhere, and FINALLY from investment income from the millions and millions taken in over the years in the cult, including the money sent in by the ashrams in the 70s and 80s.

Given what has happened with the stock market in the US at least, at record levels, and given that the real estate market, at least in California is red hot, he could be doing very well just form his investments, thanks to many of us exes who slaved away 15 and 20 years ago.

Given how BM is into planes, just for his personal pleasure, as opposed to their functional value, I'd be surprised if he got rid of it, but it must be OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive to own and operate. I bet it is not OWNED by him, but rather by another corporation, and, again, donations can be used to purchase and operate the plane for the good of the church. But, of course, it is available for his personal use at all times.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 18:41:50 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Doesn't make sense to me
Message:
I agree that BM definitely keeps his personal finances seperate from Elan Vital. If EV can't stay afloat on it's own, or if rich premies won't subsidize it, the programs will peter out. No way is BM going to sink his(?) own money into anything unprofitable, except maybe if he views it as an investment in procuring new blood for his organization or keeping the faithful interested.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 19:42:48 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Doesn't make sense to me
Message:
I have noticed that if Maharaji wants to get money off his devotees then he gives them a definite goal to aim for, a definite tangeble material goal which they can visualise. I mean, what devotee worth his salt doesn't want to buy the Lord a big boat so he can be seen sitting in it in videos.

The feeling of bliss that a premie must feel, knowing that they helped to pay for the boat that Maharaji is skippering on the video; well that feeling of bliss is unimaginable!

Now whether M actually BUYS a boat with the money is another thing. I must read this thread. Has M really sold his jet?
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 00:33:52 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Doesn't make sense to me
Message:
J-M:

Yeah, that's just what I want... for the IRS to monitor the forum. Good idea! Lucky thing I didn't make any money last year. I was in school all year and I lived off dandelion greens. This computer really belongs to my auntie. Glad that's settled!

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 06:29:19 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: NEWS BULLET-IN
Message:
. It feels so good when he is pissed at all the premies, especially me, because I deserve it

Yes JW. What did I do to deserve any of this! Very funny.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 19:10:35 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: You Didn't Do Anything
Message:
Yes JW. What did I do to deserve any of this! Very funny.

Judex, you didn't do anything to deserve this and neither did I. In my post I was being sarcastic and implying that a premie might LIKE to get yelled at and abused. In fact, I heard premies, including Mahatma Jagdeo say as much, and I think it's really sick. That's why I was making fun of it. I didn't mean to imply that you did anything to deserve the cult.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 23:55:54 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: to JW
Message:
Judex, you didn't do anything to deserve this and neither did I. In my post I was being sarcastic and implying that a premie might LIKE to get yelled at and abused. In fact, I heard premies, including Mahatma Jagdeo say as much, and I think it's really sick. That's why I was making fun of it. I didn't mean to imply that you did anything to deserve the cult.

JW - when I said, very funny, I meant, how you said what you said I thought was very funny. I always enjoy your posts I just don't have much reason to respond usually (until the bitchy one came along!). No, I do have a sense of humour, I appreciate humour. Most of what's happening now I really enjoy, including all you bright sparks on the Forum (and sometimes it is hard work and the humour makes it all worthwhile).
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:04:13 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: to JW
Message:
Thanks, Judex, I just thought 'very funny' meant something else. It's nice to know it's not misinterpreted. Now if we can just find out what PaulR is upset about, maybe it will all be straightened out.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 00:10:59 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: to JW
Message:
I think he thought you were being sarcastic, because he usually doesn't make cracks like that. Either that or he got you mixed up with Jim - as people sometimes do.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 22:57:03 (EST)
From: Mole
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: NEWS BULLET-IN
Message:
Sections of the US and Canada were done separately (8-10 of them).
Each community was linked one by one to the feed and responded by name rather than community.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:17:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mole
Subject: NEWS BULLET-IN
Message:
Each community was linked one by one to the feed and responded by name rather than community.

You mean like 'Bobby! Suzy! Fuzzbee!'? Sounds more like the Mouscateers every day.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 08:52:10 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: betrayal & shock
Message:
In my young days (before 1993) when I used to cane Es, i remember it was my birthday and I was at a club where Tony Humphries was playing. This premie called Gaby (yes, I'm naming her) was dealing two types of Es. I wanted to buy a good one from her, but instead she gave me the other type for free, failing to tell me that it was in fact Ketamin. Perhaps she had wanted to surprise me with an unexpected experience. Anyway, after passing out about twenty times and being dragged by a friend to his house, where I disappeared except for a thin thread of consciousness in the darkness of my brain, my friend called Gaby and told her that she knew what K did, and why did she give to me? Gaby didn't give a toss. 'But she's a premie' i protested to my other premie friends.

that's the thing about K. ok, we all know it doesn't 'solve your problems', but as for teaching about LOVE, boy! it seems sometimes that Love is certainly not felt by premies. Or is it only LOVE FOR ONESELF and WHO GIVES A **** ABOUT ANYONE ELSE?
Just thought I'd entertain you with that anecdote. No i don't take mind-altering substances anymore.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 08:54:00 (EST)
From: revision
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: betrayal & shock
Message:
Sorry - in the first paragraph K refers to Ketamin.
K in the second para refers to Knowledge
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 12:06:48 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: revision
Subject: need help
Message:
Becky:

I think I get the gist of what you're saying, but please explain the following terms for the American audience:

'cane'

'Es'

'give a toss'

The image I had was that you employed randomized corparal punishment involving some sort of vitamin overdose. That can't be right.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 14:42:32 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: revision
Subject: Yes, but was it an experience?
Message:
Becky,

Wow, Ketamine (powerful horse tranquilizer John Lilly is famous for using now on a regular basis which turns the world into Toonland) for E (Extacy, aka mathamphetamine, a mild derivative of MDA, which imbues lots of euphoria, smiley faces and good vibes but which, scientists say, may irreparably damge the neocortex). That's a bad switch.

Thanks for the story. (Oh, by the way, you asked me somewhere around here, I'm in Victoria, British Columbia (Canada), on Vancouver Island just off Vancouver and Seattle.)

Yes, I remember a time when I thought that Maharaji made the universe run, every last everything, but that, somehow, he REALLY made the premies run because they had knowledge or something. He never disabused us of those illusions until he had to. For example, it wasn't until his family broke rank with him that he announced that their orders weren't agya (divine). It wasn't until the guy freaked out and shot the girls in the Florida ashram that he announced that we can't GET agya in our dreams (the guy dreamt that Maharaji had ordered him to kill a few sisters or something). It wasn't until everyone started leaving the ashram in droves, calling Maharaji's bluff in a sense, that he decided that the ashram was NOT an essential step in the devotional life of any 'truly' committed premie. Oh, I'm sure there are more examples.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 06:39:36 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, but was it an experience?
Message:
It wasn't until everyone started leaving the ashram in droves, calling Maharaji's bluff in a sense, that he decided that the ashram was NOT an essential step in the devotional life of any 'truly' committed premie. Oh, I'm sure there are more examples.

Thanks for the above post Jim. Very interesting points. Grist against denial, which always wants to sneak in, because it's hard to believe that M could have deliberatley been so....I don't know the word even. Corrupt? Stupid? Imperfect? How dare he? It seems he found out everything about Westerners/human nature after the event. Eg that is why now, new people going to Knowledge 'lite' are told very different things to what people used to be told. He learnt by trial and error. Makes you wonder how the original premies who are still there, are still there.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 14:36:36 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: betrayal & shock
Message:
was that Gabriella from Miami?
(the Gaby in question)
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 21:19:23 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: What does 'cane Es' mean?
Message:
Becky:

Sorry I'm so dense, but I can't even make a guess.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 21:31:13 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: What does 'cane Es' mean?
Message:
It means hitting vitamin E tablets really hard with a springy wooden stick.

Not really. It means taking ecstacy tablets.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 08:20:22 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: What does 'cane Es' mean?
Message:
To 'cane' something in London lingo means to take it a lot.
If someone is out of his head/off his face on something, we say he's totally caned.

Es are Ecstasy, the magical tablet of the 1980s that made us believe we were going to change the world with the power of lurve.
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 22:04:30 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: betrayal & shock
Message:
Dear Becky
It was a premie 'friend' who got me addicted
to a serious narcotic. And, when we both went to our
last ditch effort supplier, was the one that bought up
all the stuff ( neither of us had another connection) while I was out of it. And, 5 days later when the withdrawals hit so
bad I couldn't move, who did look to for help? Why my best friend of course. And did this person apologise or in any way help?
NO.. unless you call driving me home from ER 2 days later
help. shit . a taxi could have done that.
This person is also the most religious premie you can find. he/she prides her/himself in it.
Premies are NOT any different than anyone else, except in my illustious opinion is they are more
selfish. Learned from the best of them they did!. Learned how to
blow off responsibilty, etc...
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Date: Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 23:58:59 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selena/Becky
Subject: blowing my preconceived ideas
Message:
Sweet Jesus! (I mean MaharaJI!) Premies selling and dealing and taking drugs? You ladies are blowing my preconceived ideas all to hell here.

In the 70's the premies I knew prided themselves in being drug free. I met several ex-heroin addicts who were drug free thanks to M. The premie highs were supposed to be from K and devotion to M. Once a friend told me that I would try drugs, but that they would be a disappointment to me in comparison with M's love and the bliss I could get from practising knowledge.

Maybe with the new revised version, you can do whatever you want, including drugs...I don't know. I guess I am shocked because I actually looked up to premies. They were my role models. Now they are doing drugs. No offense, maybe they always did and I was just sheltered.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 01:12:12 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: blowing my preconceived ideas
Message:
Joe:

They were my role models. Now they are doing drugs. No offense, maybe they always did and I was just sheltered.

That's what you get for being in that sequestered San Antonio community. What I think is a kick is the notion that premie drug pushers would have more pristine ethics than secular drug pushers. But the best are those Christian Science drug pushers. They don't even believe they're selling anything

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 02:33:10 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Premie Drug Use
Message:
Scott:

I think you're confused the post you were responding to was from VP not me.

I was very aware of all the drug use among premies. So much drug dealing was going on in and around the Miami satsang hall that at one point drug agents were IN the satsang hall.

Also, I think I mentioned earlier that premies from South America were using the charter flights to the programs in Orlando to bring in large amounts of cocaine that was sold AT the Orlando Hans Jayanti festivals in 1978 and 1979.

JW
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:30:35 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Premie Drug Use
Message:
Dear JW,
And here I thought when I got busted in 1979, and the cops were spouting off flight #'s and departure and arrival times to Miami, planes I took to see BM, I thought they were just idiots. Maybe they had done some research and knew something I didn't. I never went to a BM festival with drugs or to do anything with or about drugs.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 01:59:38 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Premie Morality
Message:
My experience in the premie community and following M was that premies had, overall, very little moral conscience. Virtually anything went, as long as it would help BM and his Mission (well, within reason, there wasn't child prostitution or anything). But I perceived a general lack of guilt about cheating, lying, drugs etc. I don't think BM has any conscience about how he fleeces his devotees out of their money and time and sincere efforts, and that tends to carry over to the premie community as well. Unlike most major religions (sorry to use that dirty word, premies), which actually create moral outlines which they encourage (or demand) their adherents follow (Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Christianity). In premiedom, if it helps BM, either to propagate K or acquire money for some pet project, or get yourself to the next program, it's fair game. I think this plays a large part in the character defect problems found in some premies. Also, the fact that it's difficult to hold down a regular job and make all the programs required in the premie world, would make the drug dealer life all the more attractive. I knew quite a number of premie drug dealers.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 06:50:29 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Premie Morality
Message:
Yes it seems another example where instructions have to be given out later rather than earlier. When I was instructed about Knowledge we were told 'Maharaji doesn't want any (some word like 'dreamy') people - for example - 'if you find a wallet, and say, 'oh, thankyou Maharaji now I can go to see you at that event', don't do that, because someone else has lost their wallet.'

But it's too late to affect what earlier premies do and think. It's a weird culture really. I found 'old' premies who still practiced the 'old' way and had no idea of any 'new instructions' and still thought they were right in touch. I felt sorry for them. Because his instructions now are 'stay in touch'. I never thought that he wasn't always saying what he is saying now, that maybe he has really fucked people around. People who are neither here nor there with it, still half-practicing, half-believing they are enlightened and feeling guilty about it as well. It must be hell for them.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 08:31:37 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Premie Morality
Message:
I agree with Joy that 'religion' is a dirty word in the premie word in the premie world.
I have a premie aquaintance/friend (who has had K for about twenty years) and he sees EVERYTHING in terms of sex, dicks, yonis etc. Whenever I meet him and his girl friend (my good friend) his attitude towards me always seems to imply that I'm a promiscuous, shallow, any-dick-will-do kind of girl. Recently I was offered some research work by a Professor of Philosophy. the premie guy said 'You'll be sitting on his lap in five minutes'.
At least religions do teach morality, and concern for other people. A hadith of the Prophet says 'God is not kind to those who are not kind'. This could sound like a threat, but at the same time, its true that those who have no kindness, receive little kindness and are usually cold, lonely people. Likewise, religions usually teach men and women to respect each other (practice is different from theory, but at least the theory's there).
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 08:34:03 (EST)
From: Revision
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Premie Morality
Message:
Sorry , I mean religion is a dirty word in the premie world - for Gods sakes, seems the E has permanently damaged my brain!
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 11:24:06 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Moral Animals
Message:
At least religions do teach morality, and concern for other people. A hadith of the Prophet says 'God is not kind to those who are not kind'. This could sound like a threat, but at the same time, its true that those who have no kindness, receive little kindness and are usually cold, lonely people. Likewise, religions usually teach men and women to respect each other (practice is different from theory, but at least the theory's there).

Becky,

If you read some evolutionary psychology, like , for example, the good intro the the field, The Moral Animal by Robert Wright, you might (should, hopefully) be persuaded that morality has evolved by natural selection and that religions just facilitate its codification. I personally think we're outgrowing them and their convenient authority (i.e. enforcement) figures.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:14:01 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Moral Animals
Message:
Seems we're replacing the 'convenient authority' of religion, with the 'convenient authority' of the natural selection theory, psychology and secularism.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 04:23:17 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: VP
Subject: blowing my preconceived ideas
Message:
Here in Britain, the only premies who I still knew in the eighties and nineties all smoked dope on a regular basis. In fact, to find a premie who didn't smoke dope was a rare occasion.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 06:42:19 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: blowing my preconceived ideas
Message:
It's quite well known in my ex-circles that a lot of premies smoke dope (I was shocked).
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 08:01:41 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: blowing my preconceived ideas
Message:
Hi VP -
When I was a premie (72-77), I didn't know many premies who did drugs or even drank alcohol, except maybe for smoking pot a little. I know I didn't (after about six months to get used to the idea!) It was sort of an unwritten rule that you weren't 'supposed' to, and I don't think people in the ashram (who some of were trying to emulate) were allowed to use drugs or drink.)

Keep in ming I lived in a conservative premie community (DC), where there were a lot of stable householder premies with children, and that may have had something to do with it. I didn't know any premie drug dealers. Also, the rumours about M drinking etc. didn't become public knowledge until after I left. I am sure that once people found out about that, a lot more of them started drinking and possibly using drugs. I know that people in the community started doing some other bizzare (IMHO) things (wife-swapping, etc.) in the late seventies and early eighties.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 12:20:28 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: blowing my preconceived ideas
Message:
I'm with you Katie.I didn't sense any drug users (just former users)amongst the premies I met.Boy was I naive!This thread is freaking me out,I mean I had no clue.

Once,after a program I met up with an old friend who wanted to smoke a joint.It had been so long since I'd partaken and I got quite high.I actually felt guilty and that I was somehow ruining the experience that the program had given me.Well the way this thread is making me think;for all I knew everyone could have been stoned AT the program.

Live and learn I suppose.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 13:11:23 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: blowing my preconceived ideas
Message:
I think drug use among premies varied depending on whether they were in the ashram, etc. and also what community they lived in. I was shocked at the amount of drug use, and drug dealing in Miami, but then Miami was awash in drugs in the late 70s and early 80s anyway. Several of the more prominent premies in the community were drug dealers. Sometimes I could count on them to make donations to the mission when money was short. A large number of premies in the community smoked dope regularly. Later, I found that even some of the ashram residents were doing it.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 09:58:37 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: VP
Subject: blowing my preconceived ideas
Message:
Dear VP,
You must have realized premies were doing drugs in the '70's if only from reading here about darshan LSD trips and the like. Most of the premies I knew, including myself, at least smoked pot. It is again pointing to the severly less strict experience I had as a premie. On that premie farm I lived on pot plants grew in the garden from the cow manure a non premie neighbor spread on our fields for us. They would smoke in there barn and throw the seeds down. We cultivated these plants and as part of my house mother duties I made a huge platter of home made granola cookies made with home made granola, of course with pot in them, every morning for weeks. I had some intense meditational experiences at that time as a result.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 16:55:21 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: all
Subject: blowing my preconceived ideas
Message:
Thanks for the answers everyone. I have very similar experiences to what Katie described above with the stable householders with kids in the community. They had done drugs prior to becoming premies. LSD, mushrooms, pot, and even peyote!! But M was keeping them straight.

Like Joy, I did see a variety of other moral inconsistencies (are drugs a moral inconsistency?? We could probably start a whole thread debating illegal drug use...) that were far worse than drugs- stealing and lying-doing and saying anything to get to a program, etc. I don't really know why I was so shocked by the thread above. Maybe because it was one of the things that the premies I knew had going for them. They didn't do drugs.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 17:24:25 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: oops
Message:
VP I thought you were kidding about being shocked.
If it helps, my druggie days didn't happen til the mid 80's.
I was crystal clean in the 70's - my big splurge was a beer on those days when the 110 temp summer days got to me. One beer.
The 80's seem to have been a critical time. Even our ex lord and his wife were 'Partying' (I hate that word because it implies drinking and drugging and all that goes with it is a big party).
If your involvement was closer in the 70's I can understand why you were shocked. The only premies I remember doing drugs then were the ones with all the money who employed the rest of us. How else could they have all that money and run off to festivals every
couple weeks?
I don't do drugs now tho sometimes it seems that way.
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 19:52:39 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: oops
Message:
Thanks! Lots of my friends have done drugs and people I look up to, so I don't hold that against anyone. I just didn't ever do them myself in part because I am a closet Nerd (according to that nerd test Mili posted here). No, really. I think that I didn't ever try drugs because my premie friends said it was SOOOO passe. That and I am weird enough without 'em!!
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Date: Tues, Jun 30, 1998 at 23:15:56 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: oops
Message:
I agree with you Selena - I think there was a definite anti-drug and anti-drinking vibe in the seventies (at least in our community). I remember going to a Guru Puja program in Amherst in 1974 and the premies were all excited because the refreshment stands were selling NEAR-beer! I am sure that once it became common knowledge that Maharaji was drinking, then many of the premies thought it was OK for them to do it too, not to mention drugs or whatever. Again, I'm glad I wasn't around then. The combination of premies + drinking + drugs would have been pretty hard for me to take.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 11:46:30 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: oops
Message:
The combination of premies + drinking + drugs would have been pretty hard for me to take.
Yup, it was indeed hard to take. The whole thing was hypocritical enough without adding that element to the lifestyle. It was like, while I am stoned and drunk I can do anything I want and treat anyone anyway I want but when I sit at M's feet, it's all OK.
I wish some day I could tell some of my stories. The problem is if anyone knew some of the people they would be recognized immediately and I don't want to do that to anyone, even if they were assholes. Oh well.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 12:04:09 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Selena's life as a premie
Message:
Selena - you can write. I bet you can write some good fiction (or perhaps what they call a fictionalized memoir, or a non-fiction novel) about these people. (Plus as you probably know, people never recognize themselves in books, even though it's obvious!) I would love to read your stories. I started to write about the whole trip, and preceding trips in my life, years ago, but it never went anywhere.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:19:25 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: writing
Message:
keep going. DO IT.
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Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:17:20 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: premies on smack
Message:
One of my good friends from my teen years who had had Knowledge for about eight years said that drugs were like vitamins to him and he was a regular smack user (heroin). I'm writing a book about this contradiction.
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