Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 15 | |
From: Jun 28, 1998 |
To: Jul 6, 1998 |
Page: 2 Of: 5 |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:31:11 (EST)
From: Another Email: None To: Jim Subject: 'The' Jack of all Your Spleen Message: Oh boy Mr. Jim, A little toasty are we? Some minor digression when your voluptous penchant for subliminal character withering was fire hosed in your direction. The ex-Ashram candor was a blast from the past. You still be the big Alpha wolf so relax. Don't you worry, no one on this site dare cross one who as articulate and oh so self assured. If someone were to out edit, the Great Stringmiester, you would simply bury them in their own copy. Makes me wonder though, Oh Great and Literate Van Man Who Can, do you block the exits so no one can leave during your Guitar solo? Better still, would you let someone plug in and play over your set from the audience? Aw shucks, according to the Jimean Law of Fair Play, I would need to submit this request in writing to your label. Thanks for the zinger(s), I relish the challenge because this isn't a game and a lot of the people here do require nurturing. Try to remember their delicate nature and wisdom. There is a very fine line between the Pure Light of God and the sallow heat generated by the flames of ignorance. All of our Agendas are equal, and (According to The Learning Channel)when it's over choices will be reviewed. I know we will all be blameless because then it really will be too late for consequense. But a choice is still a choice while we are alive.(Apologies to those who think I, 'The' Jack of All Asses really dares to judge, Sorry to all, it is only a gentlemans bet but the bet still stands) So get on with your noble work because ultimitly that which is in each moment, will be the only thing that matters. I know it, others know of matters in their moments and You also know which path unfolds at your every breath. That me boy is the aincent ritual of free will. Try to remember Oh Wise Barrister, Belief is for those who do not understand. Non belief is the same state of thought, reversed. At the apex, is consciousness and one thing is certain, No amount of winsome analect, Selected post mortum of Twenty year old Discourse, or Diatribe reasoned woe, Will ever bring to ones sensibilities, that which is Timeless. This, requires bald face honesty and those moments are not very easily attained because one cannot surrogate truth. It's not possible because, Clarity resides within as we are concieved and leaves when we die. (All Atheists, Agnostics Etc. are excused from this line) But we are cabable of pulling the wool over our own eyes and those of others. We can't do squat about the Infinite, it simply is. This paradox is timeless and You nor I nor the Living Master will ever affect that axiom. Thanks Jim, for reviewing the above information. From the Realm of the Heart, Another Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 20:12:30 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Another Subject: 'The' Jack of all Your Spleen Message: So, who are you? The Scarlet Pimpernel? Hey, listen, hero, your adolescent sarcasm reminds me on my friend's kid who's growing out of it now, thank God, but who, for the longest time, thought just turning his lip up along with the ends of his sentences made everything wonderfully clever. Like I say, he's growing out of it. I really don't know what the hell you're saying here. I detect some references to me and what I do. Of course that's irrelevant to M's pyjama parade as the Lord. But whatever. Maybe it never occured to you that I can't comment nothing about your irrelevant activities because you're hiding. No, that wouldn't occur to you. I also detect some terribly funny and ultimately meaningless new age ca ca pee pee talk. This here: Try to remember Oh Wise Barrister, Belief is for those who do not understand. Non belief is the same state of thought, reversed. At the apex, is consciousness and one thing is certain, No amount of winsome analect, Selected post mortum of Twenty year old Discourse, or Diatribe reasoned woe, Will ever bring to ones sensibilities, that which is Timeless. is priceless. It's got all the elements of classic new age nonsense: 1) obscure words no one ever uses which are meant to impress the naive and gullible; 2) Over-capitalization invocative of Arthurian once-upon-a-time days when people REALLY believed this kid of foolishness; 3) unqualified pronouncements that would seem courageous until one looks a little closer and sees that they don't actually say anything; 4) extremely wooden, archaic speech (see #2); bad grammar; and 5) maudlin sloppiness. Then there's: This, requires bald face honesty and those moments are not very easily attained because one cannot surrogate truth. which suffers from all the other problems but has the additional unpleasantness of allowing the author to brag about his great moral fibre. But, wait, there's more: We can't do squat about the Infinite, it simply is. This paradox is timeless and You nor I nor the Living Master will ever affect that axiom. And to think I was going to try to move th infinite 'over there' next weekend. Good point, friend, I guess I'll have to call the city and have them do it. And 'axiom'? Oooooh, how sexy! You're not going to start talking new age quantum physics are you now? I love that shit! You know, I read through your post and began to fell that here, at last, was a kindred spirit. But then you sign off: From the Realm of the Heart, and I'm reminded again that you are deeply in your heart and I am in my mind and ne'er the twain shall meet. It's pretty parched out here, friend. Please, go easy on me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 21:05:32 (EST)
From: craig Email: pharrumphulatixilation@yahoo.com To: Another Subject: pah! Message: There is a very fine line between the Pure Light of God and the sallow heat generated by the flames of ignorance. Be warned, students of the Truth: get that index finger one millimetre off centre-brow and your middle finger and thumb pressed a little too hard and you might end up with nothing more than the the flames of ignorance. Eek!! Beware of crossing very fine lines, for the sallow is shallow and callow marshmallow, indeed. Clarity resides within as we are concieved [sic]and leaves when we die. Phew! I thought, Brother Another, you were still alive for a minute then - or are you yet to be born..? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 21:10:17 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: 'The' Jack of all Your Spleen Message: Dear Alpha Wolf Jim, Would you please lift your leg and do a little more withering fire hosing on this voluptuously subliminal character? He's infinitely beginning to get on my nerves. And I'm starting to need some nuturing from the sallow heat of our collective ignorance. On second thought, maybe just whack him on the head with your guitar and be done with it (figuratively of course). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 22:52:58 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Another Subject: Spleens Message: A year ago I had these mysterious abdominal pains. I did a net search and decided it was my spleen. You wouldn't believe the stuff one can uncover on a net search of the word 'spleen' It seems to have beocme a hip phrase kind of like 'cheese' It's true. Try it. Sir David you may have an alter-ego out there. .... Selena being intentionally irreverant as the thread warrants Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 23:27:12 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Another Subject: 'The' Jack of all Your Spleen Message: Another wrote: 'All of our Agendas are equal, and (According to The Learning Channel)when it's over choices will be reviewed.' Who did you help, who did you love? Who did you put yourself out for? Everything you do affects others. What effect are you having on others. Do you believe you are helping them? Are you posting out of love for us? Do you love Jim? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 07:26:17 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Another Jack-Off Subject: At least we're talking... Message: Hey Jack, I don't know what you are complaining about Jim for. He, at least, is trying to understand what the hell you are talking about and spends some time replying to you. The rest of us are so confused by your abusive psycho-babble that we are reduced to insults. If you want something out of this exchange might I politely suggest (for positively the last time) that you make some attempt to actually communicate. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 17:18:23 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Satpal's disciple explains Message: I just heard from the fellow who runs the Satpal page. He reports that he finally had a chance to check with one of Satpal's close disciples about Satpal's family history, why he wasn't giventhe complete story and what, in fact, Satpal has to say about Prempal. Here's the dialogue as he recalls it: Me: How many sons did Hansji have? PB: Why do u ask? M: I've come to know he had 4 sons. And before Satpal was made Guru, the eldest one was declared a Guru and Satpalji accepted him whole-heatedly. PB: But Satpalji is the eldest? M: No Maharaji is? PB: Well, Hansji was my own Guru and I know their family well. Satpalji was the eldest Me: (I was confused, Satpalji was the eldest!) Ok. So if he accepted Maharaji as Guru, why did he leave him. PB: Because Maharaji had not followed the right principles M: I already know about the story. But tell me, if my Guru doesn't know whom to worship, how can he guide me? PB: Forget about what the Guru or his family does? Is the knowledge he gave you true? M: Yes...perhaps! PB: Don't act foolish! Just meditate. This life's your only chance. M: OK I will. I understand that Satpalji is coming here, I would definitely meet him. If I,m not impressed, I will change my Guru! PB: That's your wish Me: I believe in you. But I have no trust left in the Guru. If you agree, I accept you as my Guru. PB: No please don't. If you really trust me then Salpalji is your Guru; I'm just his disciple. Now please meditate. I order you to meditate. If not, then I request (beg) you to mediate. It's for yr own good. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 22:52:45 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jim Subject: Satpal's disciple explains Message: Thanks for that Jim. Did he say who PB is? Doesn't this sort of garbage response sound familiar? Maharaji said in his fireside video (aka the 'What, Me Worry?' video) that Knowledge works. Everything else is secondary. Don't worry about the money, the jet, the cars, the houses, the greedy guru. Just meditate. Funny to see that it's the Universal tonic for doubts when following a fraudulent guru! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 23:17:49 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Brian Subject: Succession and charisma Message: Brian: that Knowledge works. Everything else is secondary. Don't worry about the money, the jet, the cars, the houses, the greedy guru. Just meditate. Funny to see that it's the Universal tonic for doubts when following a fraudulent guru! Apart from the issue of whether there is such a thing as a non-fraudulent guru, from what I can glean from Jurgensmeyer's book this was not true of the original guru in this lineage: Shiv Dayal. It was not at all clear that he intended to start a lineage at all, and while he was alive spent a great deal of time singing the praises of other, then living, gurus. His brother, an ex-postal executive, had a following at the same time and the two carried on without much conflict. I guess the point is that the original guru in the lineage was the sort of 'George Washington.' The rest of these guys have 'borrowed charisma,' that rests upon the validity of the lineage claims. So, there is going to be some sort of battle, I expect. And to tell the truth, I can't see Maharaji winning it. Next Guru please! -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 17:15:34 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Responsible Semantics - Becky! Message: Becky, Yesterday, you replied to my reference to The Moral Animal with: Seems we're replacing the 'convenient authority' of religion, with the 'convenient authority' of the natural selection theory, psychology and secularism. May I be blunt? This is irresponsible word play. Religions are authoritarian by definition, they're based on 'received truths' that can't be questioned within the religion. Even the most liberal religions, the ones that bend over backwards to escape that tendency, still require some adherence to some non-negotiable precepts. Of course, most religions are MUCH more dogmatic than that and one that you're currently interested in is one of the worst offenders in that regard. Now THAT's authoritarianism. Science is a process for trying to figure out what the fuck's happening here. That's it. It's NOT authoritarian as much as all the newagers and religious folk would like to pretend it is. If you've got proof that Newton's 2nd law of thermodynamics is bunk, science insists that your proof impact the argument and generally accepted body of knowledge. If the scientific community is venal, superficial dumb and hostage to the ugly multinationals that we all know are really running the show, so what? Science, as a process, still insists that your proof ultimately rides on its own merits. The point is there is NO unquestionable authority in science and that includes natural selection theory. Psychology is an interesting field of study but there too, I'm not aware of any unquestionable authorities. Now, if you were to adopt some sort of psychological theory wholesale, to the extent that you're unwilling to challenge its major thinkers, well, then you've got yourself some kind of religious-style authority stuff happening. But psychology itself doesn't depend on that. And secularism? It clearly does not offer any such authority stuff. No, that's religion's purview. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 13:34:10 (EST)
From: Becky Email: None To: Jim Subject: Responsible Semantics - Becky! Message: Jim, Science is fascinating and most of it is not bullshit. It may explain how the universe came about, but what we forget here is that the universe came about! From a source, a cause, an eternal spontaneous moment - it happened. What brought is about is, for me, what I call God. You still haven't sent me the political info of Islam, but a friend has just recommended to me a book by Maxime Rodinson (A Marxist) who gives a political account of the inception of Islam by the way, Iranian Muslims are Shias and they do not believe that Mohammed (saws) was the Prophet - that in fact Ali should have been the Prophet. Even my friend's father, who is a Moroccan Muslim, reminded me that the majority of the Muslim world is Sunni. Have you ever read the Qur'an, or lived in a Muslim country? - just answer me those questions. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 13:46:57 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Becky Subject: Responsible Semantics - Becky! Message: Have you ever read the Qur'an, or lived in a Muslim country? - just answer me those questions. No to either. Mohammed was a confused, illiterate man, fascinated with the Jewish culture he saw when his father (or was it uncle?) took him on to the then-prosperous trade capital of Mecca (or was it Medina?). Some time later he had 'visions' that he was the 'messiah' he'd heard the jews talk about and tried to present himself as such to them. Of course they blew him off. Everyone did, including almost all his family and the rest of his hoemtwon. So he split, met up with soem vagabond marauders who actually bought his 'holy man' routine and returned with him to his hometown. There he slaughtered everyone who'd laughed at him unless, of course, they accepted him as the messiah. Voila! A religion was born. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 16:46:14 (EST)
From: S.F. Email: None To: Everyone Subject: THE SMOKING GUN - 1 Message: Dear Everybody, Thanks for all your kind comments on my work over the last day or so. As promised yesterday I am posting extracts from Divine Light magazine published in 1971 before M. first came to the west and got his P.R. machine in synchronisation with western marketing techniques. The letters below, written by M. in person, are re-produced here without any editing whatsoever. I have retained all of M's spelling mistakes, bold lettering, italics and capitalisations as they appear in the original magazine. My limited html skills have not allowed me to keep all of the archaic layout but it's pretty close. Towards the end of the magazine there is a very long article written by Gurucharanand, still one of M's most trusted henchmen but now known simply as Charanand. I have provided the concluding paragraphs of this article as they are very revealing about what knowledge was claimed to be and what it could do for the initiated. The content of the pieces below require no introduction from me: see for yourselves! --------------------------------------------- TO ALL THE PREMIES OF LONDON: Spreading this Knowledge --------------------------------------------- Jaipur, 21 May, 1971 Dear Premies, Dehradun Dear Premies, I am happy to receive your loving letter. Sorry for this belated reply as I was busy at a satsang programme. I have given you the seed. Plant it in the field of your life; grow and harvest the crop. Peace and harmony will prevail on you. Listen to me , for you will hear God. Understand me, for you will understand God. I am always with you; it is you who should be with me to harmonize this world. The Almighty above needs no wealth or power but only wants our love. He has given us so many things which we claim to own, for example eyes, nose, our family etc. We should at least thank Him and serve Him for what He has done for us. We would have been incomplete if we had never had eyes or any of the other organs. He is the scientist of scientists because He has perfectly made us. He has made us perfect to be perfect and to know the perfect and this is all. Every person has to be the son in order to be the father. This is natural law. Similarly, in order to be with the Lord one has to be a humble servant in the beginning. You in your western world are crippled with materialism. Come to me for I shall heal you from your disease. Your eyes are blind for you cannot look to the spiritual world. Come to me, for I shall enlighten you. If you are lame, I am there to help you. Dear aspirant, day by day men are exploring materialism. But the saints have explored in the spiritual sphere. Scientists write books and devise theories while the saints write scriptures and sing the glories of God. Love God for he is love. See Divine Light for He is Divine Light. Sing His glory in words for He is the Word. Quench your thirst for He is nectar. Listen to the heavenly harmony from which the universal frame began. You have not seen me nor have I seen you face to face. But distance never blocks love, for I have received your loving letters and when I read them my heart is filled with your love. It spills with joy and I have only tears to shed. Don't be so eager to see me for I shall come to see you. I believe that a man should be so close to God that no gap remains between the two. He feels God and God feels him. Just as with the state of saturation described in science and the state of tranquillity described in the scriptures, the state of perfection as the ultimate goal of civilization has to be reached by man. Practise and meditate on the Word which is the essence of the universe, because as you all know practise makes a man perfect. Don't worry if you are a sinner or if you err, because it is said, 'To err is human and to forgive is divine.' If God had His divinity, then He will forgive His sinners. But one must not wantonly indulge in them and must avoid them. I send you my blessings and hope you will meditate and convey my message to your brothers and sisters and to all the citizens of your country. Lead a perfect life, and may victory and success be with you. Yours, Shri Sant Ji Maharaj --------------------------------------------- Extracts from Guru Maharaj Ji's satsang to westerners, Vaisaki festival, 1971 You must tell the people they must have an aim in life. Tell them without Knowledge there is no aim. Why are you existing in this world? What is your aim in life? There is a cause, a reason for life in this universe and you have to know it. Why do you want love? Why do you want to know what love is? If you don't know your aim in life you are like a mad dog surrounded by his eight enemies not knowing which one to fight first. You will just be wandering here and there. Why do you exist? What is the Word in the Bible? You must have an aim in life. You must know True Knowledge comes only from Satguru. I can show you God. If you cannot see God, then God does not exist. If I told you an elephant was two inches high, would you believe me? Or if I told you an ant was seven feet tall would you believe me? No. But if I showed you, you would have to believe me. Believe in the practical, not in the theory. You must see God face to face. If you say God exists then show me. I can show you that God exists. Know why you have come into this world, the use and the cause of your being. You are like a useless creature coming to enjoy a party and not knowing why you are there. It is better to be the guest of honour and know the reason for the party. The devotee is joined to God by bhakti. All three are in direct combination. The feet of Knowledge carry you to God along the path of bhakti. Bhakti is two things. Internally it is love and faith in God. Externally it is service. Bhakti joins God and devotee like ligament joins muscle and bone. --------------------------------------------- Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 16:53:15 (EST)
From: S.F. Email: None To: Everyone Subject: THE SMOKING GUN - 2 Message: The following text is the last few paragraphs of a very long article entitled, 'A message to English premies from Mahatma Gurucharanand Ji'. This article has chapters entitled, 'The cultivation of sensual detachment'; 'How to control the mind' and concludes with, 'Obedience to our Perfect Master'. ………..After receiving True Knowledge, there is now |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 21:20:09 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: xx Subject: Holy Smoke! Message: >Charanand: 'Really, if a man receives this True Knowledge and does his meditation regularly with implicit faith, and follows his holy commandments, he will not only be able to uproot from his mind the germs of insatiable greed and tantalising envy which make men restless and unhappy, he will also be able to radiate cheerfulness and tranquillity all around, like a lotus or a moonbeam.' Sounds like some enjoyable smoke rings! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 23:09:01 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: Holy Joke! Message: Chris, IF Charanand really has been resting his renunciate body between the legs of some sister, as is merely rumoured here, he's a smooth-tongued hypocrite and that's about it. But tell me, has the guy ever been honest about anything? Check out the Lord of the Universe video. He's a pr guy for the guru and that's all. The interviewer asks him, at one point, what he thought of Bhole Ji's clumsy, lip-synched elvis rip-offs. 'Oh, it is divine music'. Yeah, right. Is that what he REALLY thought? Give me a break. I used to secretly love watching him get pissed off when we played tennis. Even then, when I was still Maharaji-oriented (but towards the end when I'd at least started to think for myself), I knew that the Gurucharanand shtick was just that. Petty? I don't know. The mind goes through a lot of weird things playing tennis with a real live saint, I guess. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:08:37 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: S.F. Subject: 'except by me' Message: You have attained the Holy Knowledge, and therefore it becomes your personal duty to bring your brothers and sisters to Mahatma Gurucharanand or to Ashokanand. You know that unfortunately everybody (except those who have been initiated by me) lacks Knowledge. When he was younger, Maharaji apparently hadn't finessed his coy routine. Where's the 'I'm not saying I'm the only one' bullshit that we know he never meant but which he started to say anyway? Holy Mother, His glory Shri Bal Bhagwan Ji, Of course this is just a touch of evidence that Maharaji presented his whole family as divine. But then the honest ones among us always knew that. (I mean the honest ones who were around back then.) Listen to me , for you will hear God. Understand me, for you will understand God. I am always with you Now what do you think this means? Let me see..... Bhakti is two things. Internally it is love and faith in God. Externally it is service. So if THAT's true, what happened to service? Are we talking standing at a trinkets table a few times a year? Dusting off the VCR once a month? Is that the secret to Bhakti yoga? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:01:45 (EST)
From: Becky Email: None To: Everyone Subject: answers on a postcard Message: i gave all my old M pictures away, and now I have a friend who is doing documentary and needs some. can anyone oblige? please give you answer here first. thanks Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 20:03:03 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Becky Subject: answers on a postcard Message: Dear Becky, Sorry, no, I am HAPPY to say! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 09:27:58 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: jmkahn@hol.fr To: Becky Subject: Tons of it! Message: Hi Becky! thanks for your invitation I just received. I own quite a lot of them, I think I even have an old album in my drawer with some nice old ones. Tell me: do you like keeping pictures of your ex- boyfriends? No need to answer publicly ... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:23:56 (EST)
From: Alejandro Email: None To: Everyone Subject: what would you do... Message: ...if your parents' were premies(both), happy with it, and this didn't hurt you in any way? What if they asserted that they found a reason to live when they found MJ and Knowledge? Would you talk them to YOUR truth, out of theirs? Do you think it would do any good? Have any effect? Are you putting up this site to - warn possible 'fish', - convince premies that all they believe in is bullshit, or - reassure yourselves in your 'discovery'? What would you think about a site of ex-christians, ex-muslims, ex-tcetera? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:37:29 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Alejandro Subject: what would you do... Message: '...if your parents' were premies(both), happy with it, and this didn't hurt you in any way? What if they asserted that they found a reason to live when they found MJ and Knowledge?Would you talk them to YOUR truth, out of theirs?' No. I would let them live their lives and hope that they would let me live mine. 'What would you think about a site of ex-christians, ex-muslims, ex-tcetera?' there are plenty of theses sights and they are all very good.No-one has to go there or come here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:38:03 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Alejandro Subject: what would you do... Message: Hello Alejandro, I can't answer your first question, it's too far out of my range of experience or imagination, but I'll try with the others. And this is only my opinion, of course. I think this site is here for precisely the reasons you stated: - warn possible 'fish', - convince premies that all they believe in is bullshit - reassure ourselves in our discovery What would you think about a site of ex-christians, ex-muslims, ex-tcetera? I think this is an excellent idea. In fact I know of some other ''Ex'' sites now on the web. Particularly, ex-Jehova's Witnesses and another guru site, Leaving Siddha Yoga. As you can probably tell, I'm not much for religion or any organized spirituality. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:41:11 (EST)
From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: Alejandro Subject: what would you do... Message: The problem for me has been deep feelings of inadequacy. I could never thank MJ enough, hear enough satsang, do enough service, meditate enough, or love MJ enough. Also, the fact that he has changed his tune. He used to be the Lord. Now he is the meditation teacher. There are still those subtle overtones about his divinity. He has, in fact, reinvented himself over the years. I would rather stand on my own two feet, as painful as it can be, than believe this stuff and lose my freedom. I do feel like I just got my life back after 24 years about three weeks ago. I am devastated, but out of this will come something better--me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:53:57 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: glyng@techline.com To: Gail Subject: Gail, while you're here.... Message: I went into the inactive to find that post where you said (paraphrasing now) 23 years and you don't want anything or don't want to accomplish anything, because it doesn't matter. I guess one could call this a type of malaise, but I'm not so sure. If it is, I have the same 'problem'. If it is a problem, that is. I've been out of the cult for 25 years and indeed, spent only 18 months in it. So I can't say it's because of my involvement with BM. Although it may be for you, I recognize. The funny thing is, lately, stimulated by this forum and guys like Scott and Jim, I've developed the 'strange urgings' to get off my ass and get more involved in the world. The way I see it, it's never too late. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:59:02 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Gail, while you're here.... Message: Thanks. You are right. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 12:16:55 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Gerry and Gail Subject: Gail, while you're here.... Message: I have the same problem - I feel sometimes like I don't want anything and don't want to accomplish anything. I think it is sort of a mid-life crisis that happens to some (not all) 'forty-somethings' like us. I hate to use those hackneyed phrases, but they seems to fit. I feel like I am re-examining my life and figuring out if I want to keep going in the same direction. Since I left M 20 years ago, it doesn't have much to do with that, although I can see where it definitely would for Gail. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 17:48:25 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Gerry Subject: Gerry, while you're here.... Message: Dear Gerry, This forum has helped motivate me in so many ways. I mean I'm to busy as far as work but as far as working on myself. I can't tell you the personal motivation I have gained from being here. No dear, it is never to late. I graduated college at 39 and there were/are lots of students older than me. That is just one choice, there are a lot of things you have to offer the world, that I know. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 05:16:54 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Gerry, while you're here.... Message: Too right Robyn, I graduated in '94 and have spent the last 4 years vegetating in a research lab. Interested but vegetating. I really didn't want to go out and do anything. The forum has lit my fuse again and I want to get out there. I am now in the process of signing up for an extra year to get a qualification to teach mathematics in secondary (high) school. I can't wait. Regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 19:06:10 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Richard Subject: Richard, while you're here.... Message: Dear Richard, That is so neat, one year after me and I assume we are close in age. I work part time at the college I graduated from and if I become full time I get tuition wavered, even if I don't and can swing it I'd LOVE to become a registered hydrologist! That is my dream at this point and I don't think it is even close to impossible. I think it is great that you are moving on to do something you will enjoy more that what you are doing now. Good luck! Nothing like college and exersicing your mind to keep you feeling alive, eh? Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 20:06:23 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Richard Subject: Gerry, while you're here.... Message: Do you have rocks in your head? May I suggest a vallium prescription before you begin. Just kidding--you'll love the little darlings (most of them). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 20:08:53 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Richard Subject: Richard, while you're here.... Message: I goofed. Please read the preceding message. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 05:24:14 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Richard Subject: Teaching Message: Richard that sounds great. I'm even thinking that at my great old age maybe I'm not too old to study something (haven't been there seriously since about 1975 when I dropped out to run away to the country with a cowgirl friend, smoke joints by the river & read L.Cohen poetry.) Just wanted to say that at the school I work at the teachers all seem pretty cool and content to me. also the ex-teachers who moved into admin are always rushing around visiting the campus - they say the children give them good energy. Teaching older children would be wonderful I imagine. Best luck with your qualifications. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:17:37 (EST)
From: Emile Email: None To: Gail Subject: what would you do... Message: Like i wrote last night, anything to do with Maharaji has always been voluntary. It sounds to me like you and so many other ex-premies are suffering from having listened to too many power-hungry ass-hole ashram premies, of which if I remember right Jim heller was one of the biggest. I was around back then. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:20:17 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Emile Subject: Who are you, Emile? Message: Jim heller was one of the biggest. I was around back then. Emile, who are you and where do you remember me from? How was I an asshole? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:49:11 (EST)
From: Emile Email: None To: Jim Subject: Who are you, Emile? Message: I received K from Tejeswaranand In the van. ashram. If I remember you correctly,you used to share satsang to a crowded bus. You said you liked having a captive audience. I also remember a particularly fucked-up premie named Maria who seemed to be in charge. How can you blame Maharaji for all your problems when so many disfunctional peaple had so much power. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 15:04:38 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Emile Subject: Who are you, Emile? Message: I received K from Tejeswaranand In the van. ashram. All I can say is that I hoped he washed his hands before he squeezed your eyeballs. If I remember you correctly,you used to share satsang to a crowded bus. You said you liked having a captive audience. Is that what made me an asshole? I see. Actually, I don't remeber saying or doing that but, if you do, and you're not confusing me with one of the other house fanatics, I've got no reason to disbelieve you. Hell, fella, we used to purr with excitement talking about the pospect of stopping a bullet intended for Maharaji. We were trying to take his show to the world. What's wrong? Didn't you ever hear Maharaji say, 'Don't be shy! Shout it on the streets.'? Let me know and I'll find you the satsang. I also remember a particularly fucked-up premie named Maria who seemed to be in charge. Maria McEvenue was sent out by Toronto to be our press sectretary. She was kind of like second in command. Gary Ockendon was community director then. Maria went home after Amherst and got captured by Ted Patrick and deprogrammed. Lucky girl! I ran into her a few months later and we went for coffee. She was wearing makeup! Anyway, she told me then that she was having a hard time readjusting to life without Maharji but that sehe knew it was real. I just wish she had the guts to lean on me a little harder. Not that it would have worked, I guess. How can you blame Maharaji for all your problems when so many disfunctional peaple had so much power. There was nothing wrong with Maria. She was just following orders. As was I. Can't you understand that? Hey, do YOU remember Dave Wiener? Were YOU at satsang that night when Gary came back from identifying his body? What do you remember? How about Nigel? Did you know him? Or Elaine? (She might have been before your time). No, Emile, I wasn't an asshole and you know it. I was a fun-loving, committed premie. I onloy had fun with people, liked to joke around even then and was friendly, as far as I could tell, with just about everyone. You're really not being fair to me, are you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 15:34:29 (EST)
From: Emile Email: None To: Jim Subject: Who are you, Emile? Message: You're right Jim,maybe I'm not being fair. But isn't that a pretty lame excuse 'I was just following orders!' I was there and I have great memories of those days. I had no problem with Maharaji or K, but I sure had alot of problems with most of all the nazis living in the ashram. Always judging and telling the rest of us how we should be living our lives all in the name of Maharaji. Remember Amherst. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 16:02:28 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Emile Subject: Who are you, Emile? Message: You're right Jim,maybe I'm not being fair. But isn't that a pretty lame excuse 'I was just following orders!' No,it's not a lame excuse at all in the circumstances. By telling us that the world was illusion and our minds untrustworthy, Maharaji tricked us into relying on him completely. This was a lot worse mind control than Hitler ever exerted. Bsides, our actual acts weren't all that repugnant. We were just propping up a con artist. In other words, telling people about the glories of Guru Maharaj Ji, the Living Lord, might have been stupid but it was not so contrary to basic human values as murdering people wholesale in gas chambers because of their race. Now THAT's where you get into 'just following orders' being a bit thin. I was there and I have great memories of those days. Oh yeah, I have some great memories too. And I'm sure that all the Chinese who got swept up in Mao's cultural revolution have somewaht fond memories of the banners, the parades the enthusiasm. BUT was it real? Did you know that Tejeshwaranand was fucking a harem of 'sisters' then? Did Dave's suicide affect you at all? And what, by the way, did you sacrifice then? You didn't move into the ashram. How much money and property did you give? How much did you pay for this party that you remember so nicely? I had no problem with Maharaji or K, but I sure had alot of problems with most of all the nazis living in the ashram. Always judging and telling the rest of us how we should be living our lives all in the name of Maharaji. Really, don't you understand how blind you sound? It's like being charmed by John Gotti and blaming his 'thugs' for not being as nice. Do you have any idea what the cult was about? Surrender. Does that word mean anything to you? Shit, when I read this kind of superficial remembrance, I'm astounded. I almost feel like giving you satsang all over again! Remember Amherst. Yeah, what about it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 16:29:09 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Emile Subject: WhY so Angry , Emile? Message: but I sure had alot of problems with most of all the nazis living in the ashram. God, Emile, you sound awfully angry and bitter. You really should try to let go of your anger and get on with your life. If you learn to let go of it, I think you will see your anguish dissipate after awhile. That's the problem with most premies, they are just consumed with bitternerr and tend to blame all their problems on the ashram residents. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 16:24:53 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Emile Subject: Who are you, Emile? Message: How can you blame Maharaji for all your problems when so many disfunctional peaple had so much power. Who gave them the power, Emile? Who is ultimately responsible? How do you know they were dysfunctional and what did they do to make you say that? Aren't you awfully judgmental? What did those people do to you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 16:59:50 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Emile Subject: a cheap shot, Emile Message: It sure is easy to sit back and throw stones at someone when that person doesn't even know who you are. I know because I have done that to Maharaji occasionally here myself. But he set himself up as the Lord, so I don't feel too badly about my behavior towards him. It pales by comparison to what he has done. Jim is a real person-not a fake Lord . If you have something to say about him publically, why don't you say it? Give examples. How was Jim an asshole? And who are YOU anyway? Tell us, otherwise it is just a cheap shot. VP Doesn't usually demand people use their real names. Didn't think Jim's Millineum letter sounded like it was written by an asshole. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:17:58 (EST)
From: Emile Email: None To: VP Subject: a cheap shot, Emile Message: Maybe I am angry. It seems likely to me that the same peaole who kept telling me to get out of my mind and wear polyester suits are now out there saying 'get out of your heart,what you are experiencing isn't real.' And I did live in the ashram but got the hell out as soon as i realized Maharaji was pretty far removed from what alot of higher-ups were telling me and trying to get me to do. Amherst was about premies like maria who I remember telling us that Maharaji was very pleased with the way Canadian premies were mindlessly following the leadership.'my words' but that was the jist of it. Anything fun or sexy or exciting was frowned upon. When we got off the plane in Amherst in our polyester suits and long-sleeved blowses we were met by premies in cut-offs and tank-tops. there was good music and dancing and just a general light,fun atmosphere. Maharaji at the program acknowledged that Canada was a little confused but that he was going to straighten it out and for me I guess he did. I only listen to what he says now and I haven't been disappointed yet. And as for cheap shots,I've never seen so many cheap shots as what I see on these pages by mostly anonymous writers, Jim is the only one I've seen reveal himself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:26:54 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Emile Subject: a cheap shot, Emile Message: And I did live in the ashram but got the hell out as soon as i realized Maharaji was pretty far removed from what alot of higher-ups were telling me and trying to get me to do. Ever go to one of the ashram meetings where Maharaji himself presided? It was pretty clear who was giving directions and who was in control. Also, if you moved out, you went directly against his instructions, which were that you were NOT to move out, unless of course you wanted to move INTO a cesspool. Anything fun or sexy or exciting was frowned upon. You got that right. Wasn't it a drag? Look, I lived 9 years in ashrams in the U.S., believe me, it wasn't any different. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:54:09 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Emile Subject: cheap shots Message: And as for cheap shots,I've never seen so many cheap shots as what I see on these pages, by mostly anonymous writers, Jim is the only one I've seen reveal himself... The difference is BM is a public figure and as such, has opened himself and his fantastic claims (lies, IMO) to public scrutiny. Many, many people have given their names on the forum. There is a whole thread on anonymity and the reason for that. BTW, my name is Gerry Lyng and I live in McCleary, Washington. Nice to meet you. What's yours? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:20:27 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Emile Subject: a cheap shot, Emile Message: Emile, I really understand where you're coming from on a certain level. I sold you paint then and now I'm selling you paint remover. But really, let's be adults about this, shall we? In 1974 I was a 20 year old kid who was trying to diligently surrender my life to my beloved master. I trusted him fully. I'm not stupid, none of us were. We were able to understand what his 'agya' was well enough and beleive me, his 'agya' was to give the mind no quarter. Not an inch. Now, can'y you see what's happening? Maharaji's doing all he can to distance himself from that reality and his current premies are more than happy to play along. I mean, God forbid that he should ever take up the great sword against the mind again, eh? No, this is much better. You've got guru-lite selling knowledge-lite and you can blame anyone BUT him for anythnig else that has ever gone down. Joe (one of the other named participants here) is right. Maharaji went out of his way, at closed ashram satsangs in the late 70s, to pressure us into a)not leaving the ashram; and b) remembering that we were there for one purpose only -- surrender. No, that's not cut-offs. But let's not be stupid about this, okay? Maharaji has said all sorts of things. Like any good con, he changes his tune depending on his audience and situation. Why don't you deal with some of the older materials here, like the satsang and letter he gave us when we got k? Emile, can't you see that we're really all on the same side here? We ALL got duped. This isn't an 'us' and 'them' situation. Now, some of us who've bothered to learn all this shit are just trying to share the truth. Please don't let the personalities stand in your way. There but for the grace of anyone but, could have gone you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 11:06:29 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim and JW Subject: Assholes? Message: Jim and JW, I didn't know either of you guys back 'then' but I remember acting like an asshole when I was a premie. Making excuses for that doesn't distill the case that maharaji was the Supreme Asshole. It's really another story. If someone reminds me that I was an asshole it would probably be more responsible for me to say, 'You're right, I was an asshole. I was out of line. No excuses. I'm sorry.' And then move on to maharaji's evil deeds which haven't been corrected yet. There really isn't any excuse for acting like an asshole. Almost every premie did it, at one time or another and it was their own fault. Acknowledging that doesn't diminish the case against maharji. Rick Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 13:41:01 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rick Subject: Assholes? Message: Rick, I have to disagree and trust me, it's not because I'm afraid to admit my own faults. But honestly, I don't see it that way. I, personally, wasn't an asshole so much as someone who really thought we were all sinking in a world of maya without M's help and was trying to serve the Lord in encouraging myself and everyone else to surrender. I never hit anyone, yelled at anyone, threatened, played any power plays, etc. I just gave satsang. No, sorry, I'm not wearing it. Look, I get your point completely. Really I do. But, even for expediency's sake, I wouldn't feel right admitting something like that. Now there WERE some real assholes for M. Like that Mario guy I was talking about from Montreal. The guy slapped me in the face once becuase I laughed or something. Or Garnet who, as I once mentioned, hit my sister (lightly enough) with a cane as she walked by. Those were really shitty things to do. Hey, in a sense everyone who gave satsang to anyone was being an asshole. But, really, the word loses its currency at that level. Well, as an ashram premie, I was just a bit more consistent on keeping up the river of satsang than some others. Do you follow me? Do you agree? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 15:42:49 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: Assholes? Message: I think I follow you, Jim, and I wasn't there so I don't really know. But judging from what you say in your post, you sound to me like you were an asshole but you think you weren't. Certainly, hitting (violence) is the strongest currency of 'assholeness', followed by yelling, threats, and power trips. But satsang can rate pretty high up there if it's done properly (or improperly, depending on one's viewpoint). A certain facial gesture, expressing just the right amount of condescending self-righteousness can vault someone right into 'assholedom'. What gets said in satsang is a whole bunch of bullshit; premies with all sorts of aberrations running their little trips on anyone who will listen. The paper the currency is printed on can be very subtle but it's still worth something. One of the main reasons Fatboy is the Supreme Asshole is that he helps his followers be assholes. They neglect their families and friends, ignore the problems of the world, and think they're better than other people. Arrogance is one of the top prerequisites for 'assholeship'. Maybe we have a different definition of asshole. About nine out of ten premies who've posted here have revealed 'assholeness'. Would you agree? Okay, maybe we can settle on a different word... maybe you were a jerk. Still too strong? How about a little obnoxious? Were you an idiot or a moron? I think the real issue here is that almost everyone involved in the premie world, played a part. BM was the foul odor, but we had it all over us - we were bathing in it and we stunk. We were willingly wiping it all over us and we wanted other people to wipe it all over them. The point is we were culpable; even if only to our own detriment. We reached into our pockets and pulled out whatever we could because a young teenager from India said he would give us everything. Don't you have any sense of embarrassment? By the way, what are the faults you're unafraid of admitting? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 16:49:43 (EST)
From: Emile Email: None To: Rick Subject: Assholes? Message: Now Rick you really sound like an ass-hole. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 17:54:17 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Emile Subject: Assholes? Message: Emile, You never did tell me who you are after I so politely introduced myself. I'll ask again: who are you? It's ok, you can say it, unless of course you're afraid the guru will get you. You don't sound too blissful. Maybe the crock of shit you swallowed is giving you a tummy ache? PS There's no hyphen in asshole Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 22:05:00 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rick Subject: Assholes? Message: Rick, No, I DON'T think you read me. Let me put it this way... imagine the nicest, softest little kittie of an ashram premie. Puuuurrrr, meow, bhole shri peep peep! Now imagine a premie who HASN'T given himself over lock, stock and barrel. He just goes to satsang, smokes a little dope, loves to meditate -- when he wants -- really digs arti whenever he's not too busy to stick around for it and, by the way, really digs his new girlfriend too. Believe me, that 'community premie' is going to be intimidated by the ashram premie for obvious reasons. Well, you remember how that all went, don't you? Now, if that little ashram premie hears Maharaji give clear, straightforward satsang about how we should do nothing but satsang, service and meditation and that little ashram premie parrots that same satsang -- bhole shri peep peep -- especially when the community premie's trying to turn his new girlfriend on to Maharaji (but not enough that she'll want to move into this ashram thing, of course!), well tell me that isn't a set up. That's just one example, there were millions of situations where we ashramies were patsies, scapegoats, chumps, straightmen at the very least, for Maharaji and his vascillating agya. No, that wasn't being 'asshole's so much as just trying to help one another fight Mr. Mind. Mind you (nyuck nyuck), I can see how one can argue conversely, that anything you do, for any reason, is gaugeable on some sort of general population scale of civil behaviour. That's just a semantic twist I don't think we can ever resolve. Now, you're thinking, what if we're not talking about the cutest little Beanie Baby of a premie but instead someone who liked to get out there and beat the great drums of satsang? At what point does that make you an asshole? I still say that itself won't do it. On the other hand, there were premies who seemed to really enjoy intimidating people. No, Rick, I'm sorry to disappoint you, I wasn't one of them. I was just a sucker caught in some stupid spiritual trip. I conveyed the message of the master which was incredibly ugly when you really look at it. That was about it. Rick, there's no need for a wide-scale ex-premie confession. Our minds were sincerely tricked. I think that's different than say Serbian death squads. I DON'T think that their minds had as little room to manouevre as did ours. Plus, of course, their acts were a hell of a lot worse. We really did think we were helping everyone. Embarrassment? Of course. Faults? Just the regular ones, nothing special. How about you, boychick? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:18:35 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Assholes? Message: bhole shri peep peep Jim, You are hilarious. I don't mean to egg you on but that was great. You really stated your case well and sincerely. I believe you. How come your such a putz now? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:27:19 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Assholes? Message: How come your such a putz now? I stopped meditating? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:22:48 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: Assholes? Message: Jim, I think you're trying to have it both ways on two fronts. First, unless I'm mistaken, you hold premies who post on the Forum responsible for acting like jerks. You accuse them of being less than sincere and acting like nitwits. I think you're correct... but I think you're excusing yourself from similar behavior in the past... unless you were different. With respect, I doubt that. Secondly, if the questionable behavior of premies is negligible because of programming that allows one's mind little room to manouver, than His Fat Lordship may have limited responsibility also. Perhaps his father brainwashed him too; but who really gives a shit. Now, I know I could be wrong, but I think you may have been less innocent as a premie than you claim. Little mannerisms in your communication give it away... here are some examples: No, I DON'T think you read me... No, Rick, I'm sorry to disappoint you... Now, you're thinking... Rick, there's no need for a wide-scale ex-premie confession... Faults? Just the regular ones, nothing special. How about you... The point I'm trying to make isn't the level of how obnoxious or abusive a premie's behavior was, but that however obnoxious or abusive it was, that the premie is responsible for that behavior; that he or she is responsible for getting brainwashed in the first place. The reason I'm doubting you here is that you're claiming complete innocence: I was just a sucker caught in some stupid spiritual trip. I wasn't an ashram premie or a laid back community premie, I was a super dedicated community premie. The natural intimidation that a laid back community premie felt towards an ashram premie he/she also felt towards me, to a lesser degree. But that's not what I'm talking about. It's the subtle trips that almost everyone was running on each other, and that almost every premie that posts here tries to run on us. It isn't intimidating but if you don't see it coming, you can feel ripped off psychologically without even realizing what happened. It isn't a question of confessing. It's a question of accurately identifying what happened in the cult, and demanding that responsibility is charged where it's due. What's the point is saying 'I'm completely innocent'? Why not say 'Guru was a major asshole and I was a teeny-weensy bit obnoxious'? It's not going to kill you, Jim. It'll lend more credibility to the facts you're presenting, and besides, it's probably true. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 13:54:06 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rick Subject: Think, Rick Message: I think you're trying to have it both ways on two fronts. First, unless I'm mistaken, you hold premies who post on the Forum responsible for acting like jerks. You accuse them of being less than sincere and acting like nitwits. I think you're correct... but I think you're excusing yourself from similar behavior in the past... unless you were different. With respect, I doubt that. Rick, with all due repsect, this is stupid. I NEVER acted anything like these premies. What's wrong with you? I NEVER denied Maharaji's past, the fair import of his words, the logical implications of his 'no concept' philosophy. In other words, I never played this spineless game of revisionism. Further, I never blamed other premies (like US) for asking honest questions about it all. I think the worst I might have gotten would have been around the time of the family split. By that I mean that if a fellow premie had asked me how to deal with it I would have said 'Don't, just meditate. Maharaji's lila...' and all that. But I wouldn't have lied about my own experience, our common past or any of that kind of shit. That's a new game they started playing after I left the casino. Same for you, I imagine. There WAS a certain innocence to being a premie back then. But you know something? The rose was clearly losing its bloom by the early 80s when I split. IF I ever gave satsang to anyone in that last year and tried to sell them on how 'beautiful' it all was -- when I finally was beginning to see that it just wasn't like that -- then, sure, I was lying. The thing is, I don't remember doing that. I was actually trying to be honest, believe it or not. The premies of today who were around then and who post here are shameless liars. The more recent vintage who post here can be excused a lot at first. However, once they hit this site and have a chance to learn a lot of the history that was hidden from them and which they were obviously tricked into not asking about before, they don't have any excuses either. They start acting like assholes too UNLESS they're part of the few whose residual honesty forces them to reconsider things. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 15:13:44 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: Think, Rick Message: Jim, you loose-boweled French Poodle: This is absolute hogshit. The insincerity that I saw in premiedom during the seventies was rampant. Premies lied about their experiences regularly. They behaved like arrogant ponces and thought their shit didn't stink. Most behavior was subtle... there was no Forum to hide behind anonymous handles, but no one could legislate disapproving glances, rolled-eyes when backs were turned and dismissive gestures that could be explained away when confronted. The whole foundation of 'knowledge' was denial and you had to sign up to get on the boat. It was a breeding ground for fucked-up kids to run their trips and receive support while they did it. But I get your drift... you were different. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 15:41:50 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rick Subject: Le ruff ruff! Message: Rick, You tiresome curmudgeon, I'm surprised that you see things like this. Just because someone got k didn't mean that they gave up their integrity. It took decades to turn these current premies into the sloppy joes they are. In the seventies we were still good, fresh ground beef. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 15:55:04 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Rick Subject: Think, Rick Message: The insincerity that I saw in premiedom during the seventies was rampant. Premies lied about their experiences regularly. They behaved like arrogant ponces and thought their shit didn't stink. Rick, in my experience it wasn't that simple. I think there were, and probabaly still are, many premies who are sincere and don't lie about their experiences. I include myself in this, and so maybe I'm not completely objective, but I think many of the nice experiences premies have are sincere and real. The problem is they aren't objective about the experiences, and see the downsides because of cult programming, and further, they erronerously believe that Maharaji is the source of their experiences. Some premies perhaps lied about their experiences, but I think many didn't. At least they didn't know they were lying, but were just spouting the company line. Not all premies were arrogant, in fact I think most weren't. Some of them were and very fine people who got sucked up into a very destructive cult. Now, some premies were arrogant, sadistic, mean and just downright nasty, and when they were in positions of power, it got really bad. Some of these people were emotionally sick. Take David Smith, for example. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 16:56:20 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sex and Video Tape - no LIES Message: Jim, the premies only lie to each other. New people aren't told anything as of 1987 when MJ switched to knowledge-lite and told us to stop talking. All I ever did was say 'Would you like to come to something.' That's all anyone says. I did lie to the premies and said I had invited people, but I just couldn't ask my collegues. I told one boyfriend in 1987 about the Lord of the Universe. He attacked Anne Johnston at a public program. He basically said she was full of it. She told me that I should keep my experiences to myself. I am only guilty of getting one poor soul into the cult back in 1981. People do not perceive saying NOTHING AS LYING. I quote (with poor punctuation and all): DEALING WITH QUESTIONS: A. Do not directly answer questions regarding M's message, such as, 'What is thirst?' What does he mean by Knowledge'?' Direct them to continue to listen to M B. Respond to questions regarding information and schedules (be aware of and upcoming instructor visits and events M is attending). PERHAPS IT'S TIME FOR YOU TO GO BACK FOR A VIDEO PRESENTATION. No one will speak to you. A person will read from the script and push play. That same person will read from the script to say goodbye to you. Invitations to the cult go no further than 'Do ya wanna see a video?' Usually new folks attend as a precursor to a date. In fact, in our community, MJ's new recruits over the last 15 years have been due to sexual relations and marriages. Other people just don't stay. Propagation really is at the heart of the thing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 15:43:16 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Rick Subject: Assholes? Message: I wasn't an ashram premie or a laid back community premie, I was a super dedicated community premie. Rick, this sounds like a helluva shitty place to be in. I can see, it must have been hell and I knew others in situations like yours. This dedication, which BM was asking for, made you more vulnerable to the satsang heavies and yet you didn't get the advantages (or the mental and emotional protection from the heavies) that the layed back premies had, at least to some degree. It's the subtle trips that almost everyone was running on each other, and that almost every premie that posts here tries to run on us. Rick, sure we layed trips on each other, but this was mostly parroting what BM said. He also created an environment in which premies were vulnerable to that kind of shit. He also did nothing whatsoever to address the abuse. In any other situation, there wouldn't have been either the heavy satsang, not the willingness of people to sit and take it. I think the premies who post here can be attacked for being illogical, programmed and not discussing things fairly, but that's really different than saying they are intentionally laying trips on ex-premies. First, I think the programming means they usually aren't aware that they are, and secondly the ex-premies are not longer vulnerable to it. If we are distributing responsibility, does the 'heavy satsang victim' have responsbility for not seeing the bullshit abuse and at least removing them from the situation? If that's true, then that strikes at the heart of what makes a cult a cult, the inability to recognize your own feelings and better judgment and to act upon them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 20:18:41 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jim Subject: A tent on the Lord's land Message: I remember the night that Luke decided to pitch a tent outside my door at the ashram in London. He had his two cats living in there with him in the dead of winter. Well, Peter Lenin came out and told Luke he had 30 minutes to remove his belongs or he was calling the police. Luke said it was the 'Lord's land,' and refused to budge. An argument broke out and Luke threw a can of spaghetti. The intended victim ducked and it hit me in the head, instead. Have you ever noticed that the wrong people seem to get hit in the head? The whole thing kind of reminds me of summer camp. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 21:12:35 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Emile Subject: a cheap shot, Emile Message: ML: Maybe I am angry. It seems likely to me that the same peaole who kept telling me to get out of my mind and wear polyester suits are now out there saying 'get out of your heart,what you are experiencing isn't real.' Once 'behind the curve' always 'behind the curve.' -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 22:20:53 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Emile Subject: Emile Message: Dear Emile - Another non-anonymous person here. You wrote: Maybe I am angry. It seems likely to me that the same peaole who kept telling me to get out of my mind and wear polyester suits are now out there saying 'get out of your heart,what you are experiencing isn't real.' You may be right about it being SOME of the same people here, but I and many other exes who post here would never tell anyone that 'what they are experiencing isn't real'. My purpose for posting here is to be there for people who AREN'T having a good experience following Maharaji, and to let them know that leaving M can be OK, if that's what they want to do. If you're happy with what you are experiencing, then I won't criticize that. You also wrote: Anything fun or sexy or exciting was frowned upon. When we got off the plane in Amherst in our polyester suits and long-sleeved blowses we were met by premies in cut-offs and tank-tops. there was good music and dancing and just a general light,fun atmosphere. This was my experience also, at many festivals, and I didn't live in the ashram, nor did I live in Canada. I lived in the Washington DC community, which was fairly conservative. I also think certain people (including myself) were just a lot stricter about following the unwritten 'rules' than a lot of other people. And Maharaji, Mata Ji, and the mahatmas really did say things about how to dress, act, etc. - it wasn't just the ashram leadership. It sounds to me like you are still angry about how you were treated in the ashram and in your community. I guess this is as good a place as any to let it out. Regards, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 00:41:30 (EST)
From: Emile Email: None To: Katie Subject: Just an ordinary premie Message: I think that I was lucky not to be an insider. I was always and still am just an ordinary premie. The politics surrounding Maharaji don't affect my life. Maybe I should also try to be there for peaple having a hard time with Knowledge. I think alot of peaple might find that the problems they are having are more to do with choices they made than with anything to do with Knowledge. I agree with you about leaving Maharaji if thats what they want to do. Nobody should have to do anything they don't want. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:59:42 (EST)
From: Paul Email: None To: Alejandro Subject: what would you do... Message: It seems unlikely that your parents will be receptive to anything which doesn't fit their view of M or K. If they are 'happy,' the motivation for change will be absent. Like any fundamentalist (premie christian, etc), their tolerance for cognitive dissanance is minimal, i.e., they are unable to consider conflicting information with what they know to be true and real since it might mean changing their beliefs. That is how premies ignore or explain away any negative information about M. Fundamentalist types stop being seekers of 'truth' because they now have the answers. Premies who post here, constantly discount information which doesn't fit what they 'know,' because 'in their hearts they know they are right'(couldn't resist). Since K has given your parents a 'reason to live,' an open appraisel of K would be very threatening. (I know I was incapable of it when I was in the throes of premiedom). You might show them things from this site and create a dialog about M an K. Who knows, at one time they were receptive to becoming devotees, and maybe at some time they will be ready to re-evaluate. Paul Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 12:59:50 (EST)
From: Becky Email: None To: Alejandro Subject: what would you do... Message: 'what premies believe in' - I thought K was about Knowing not believing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:14:45 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Becky Subject: what would you do... Message: Knowledge and its concomitant guru worship is, and always has been, merely a belief system. Nothing more than that. If you believe, your brain will find a way to make it ''true'' for you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:17:59 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Alejandro Subject: what would you do... Message: Dear Alejandro, If I thought that discussion can, at best, persuade one of someone else's truth, instead of 'truth' truth, I wouldn't try to talk my parents out of their beliefs. On the other hand, if I thought, as I do, that truth is a bit more absolute than that, and that they weren't getting it, I would certainly try to dispell what I perceived as their illusion. What about you? Don't you think there is such thing as 'truth'? I like this site for all three reasons you propose and several more. How about you? Do you like it? Yes? No? Why? I think a site run by ex members of any religion would be an excellent idea. How about you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 00:23:45 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Jim Subject: truth Message: Jim, You make an excellent point about truth being absolute. Much along the lines of everyone has a right to an opinion but if their opinion is stupid it does not deserve respect.( ie in my opinion the earth is flat...respect it I have a right to that opinion.) If one were to try to talk their parent's out of, lets say, eating arsenic because we know it is poison and they believe it is candy, than few would argue we should sit idly by and allow our parents to poison themselves. But clearly this is not so simple. All who try to present the facts to a premie are not successful. Less so if they are unwelcome facts. A person may value his relationship with his premie parents, even if it is much less than it could be if they were free of Rawat, enough that he might not want to fight what is likely a losing battle and alienate them. I suppose I most admire absolutists but I tend to be a situationalist in the end. I think you are right, but I probably would not have it in me to fight the battle. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 11:44:51 (EST)
From: Alejandro Email: None To: Jim Subject: what would you do... Message: I'm still not sure of what I feel/think about this site. It sure did strike me... I get a feeling that being here to support each other since you left MJ is, in a way, escaping from confronting the fact on your own. (cfr. Passing thru TO Judex). I am very greatful to my parents and the way they grew me up, with the freedom to dissent from THEIR point of view. Wouldn't it be unrespectful for me not to leave them the same freedom? During (this) short life as a Westerner, I've come to think of truth as s.thing quite relative and unreachable, though my 'heart' pushes me to hope for an absolute TRUTH. I just know I don't know. (NOT YET) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 14:01:55 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Alejandro Subject: Ally, pally Message: Sorry, that's a premie in-joke (Guru Puja '73 at 'Ally Pally' in London) -- Look, there is no such thing as 'subjective truth'. That is about as much of an oxymoron, or contradiction in terms, as you can muster. So, if you want to simply say that you don't think there's any 'truth', say it. But this new age gobbledygook is just that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 14:39:02 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Alejandro Subject: to Alejandro Message: Dear Alejandro - You wrote: I get a feeling that being here to support each other since you left MJ is, in a way, escaping from confronting the fact on your own. (cfr. Passing thru TO Judex). I strongly disagree with this - in fact I strongly disagreed with Passing Thru's original post to Judex. Everyone is ultimately alone, and everyone must deal with their own problems alone. However, we still have support groups, and support groups still help people - why? (I'm not just talking about support groups for people leaving M, I am talking about support groups for all kinds of things: rape victims, people whose children have degenerative diseases, alcoholics, and every other thing you can think of). The reason people get help from these groups is because they HELP people face their problems. I suppose that there are people who use support groups to hide from their problems, but I have been on this forum for a year, and I have seen a lot of people facing their own involvement with Maharaji, what it meant in their lives, how it affected other people in their lives and so forth, It is NOT easy to do that, and for you to imply that somehow people are escaping reality by participating in the forum is insulting to those people. You also wrote I am very greatful to my parents and the way they grew me up, with the freedom to dissent from THEIR point of view. Wouldn't it be unrespectful for me not to leave them the same freedom? I didn't comment on this earlier, but I don't think you have to confront your parents about their belief in Maharaji. It sounds like your parents have given you the option to agree to disagree with them, should you want to. I know a lot of really good people who firmly believe things that I don't believe, and it doesn't stop me from loving and respecting them at all. Regards, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 05:48:08 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Alejandro Subject: What would..to Alejandro Message: I get a feeling that being here to support each other since you left MJ is, in a way, escaping from confronting the fact on your own Dear Alejandro, good to see you posting here. I like what you said about dissenting and having the freedom to do that. I agree very much. On the above point, the truth for me is that when I started doubting Maharaji and knowledge (and service and other premies adn the lot) I was already so alone! I couldn't have been more alone when I was practicing knowledge. I cut myself off from my family & others, people didn't have much meaning to me, I was arrogant and also spaced-out. All I ever wanted to talk to new people about was propogation. Yet I wasn't even happy. The promise of that I thought I would experience didn't eventuate (for me). How lucky to find this site and Forum and realise I was not alone. I can't tell you how much that has benefitted me and I hope it can do the same for others. How many things in your life do you have to face alone - most, I would say. Thank god I've found a place where people are real, even if this is cyberspace it's a big change. Sincerely, Judex Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 05:22:19 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Apologies Message: I am feeling very upset. It must be a stage in my recovery. I have been feeling quite depressed. Now I see where some of it is coming from. The idea that Maharaji will apologise, or do something to rectify what he has done or give back anything I have given him, is nonsense. When I followed him it was 'buyer beware'. Because he is acting like an asshole, of course he has no sense of responsibility for what he teaches. I am through with trying to forgive him but I do forgive myself for being such an IDIOT as to follow him and I feel sorry that I was so needy and so lost that I thought I needed someone to show me the way, and I ignored the signs that he was in it for his own benefit, not mine. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 08:56:35 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Judex Subject: Apologies Message: Dear Judex, I am so sorry that you are feeling as low as you do. It is my guess that everyone on this forum either has, is or will feel the same way from time to time and so you have a lot of sympathy and company. I am through with trying to forgive him Amen to that sister! As for forgiving yourself, of course you must, although you havn't done anything wrong. Your only crime as such was to have an open heart and a desire to know more about your existence. Your open heart is evident to all who read your posts and you are all the more appreciated for it. I am determined to keep my heart open because I don't want to descend into bitterness, I will not let what happened before ruin my potential. Seeing your pain reminds me that I am not alone in my struggle and for that I thank you. I have just returned from yet another attempt to organise some counselling support to help me cope with the stress of looking after my wife and deal with low self-esteem etc. (surprise, surprise?) Yet again the resources are not available etc. etc. So here I am, back to the only place that listens and the first post I read is yours Judex. We will get through this, we will make progress and there will be better times. Your post has made a lot of difference to my day and for that (as always) I thank you. Regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 09:22:57 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Richard Subject: Apologies Message: Dear Judex and Richard, I have feelings of love and respect for both of you and am sorry you are low. I know you both know that although some of us here scrap with each other, the bottom line is we support each other. My 'flesh and blood, physical world friends',except my one ex-premie friend and one other, think I'm a bit nutty, having friends and people I truly care for whom I have never met. I think because we share a strong common point in our connections, at whatever stage, to BM, we naturally move to discuss deep importnt issues in our lives and I have found such good, strong and varied support and advice and love from so many people on the forum and those from here whom have become more a part of my life through email and the phone. Just knowing you can pour your heart out here and have people read and care for your words and the feelings in you that formed them is a big help and then if someone else shares similar feelings that helps too. As far as forgiveness, I think I am starting to look at it, in the case of the offender not being able to acknowledge the offens(es), as forgivness of yourself and not the offender also because how can you truly forgive without any acknowledgement from the offender. But as Richard says becoming bitter is denying your potential and being able to forgive yourself will allow your heart to be opened. I am having yet another emotional day today myself, not to do with BM thank god and this was also my first post today. I wish you both and anyone else needing it today, strength and my love and support. I think you both have good reasons for your struggles and are both doing amazingly well dealing with things and that you both need to give yourselves more credit and self caring. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 10:13:58 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Richard and Judex Subject: Apologies Message: Richard, Judex: I've been feeling some depression myself, of late. I can't figure out the cause, so it may just be that summer is coming on and I haven't taken a vacation, I don't have a full time job, and I'm finished with my big project. It also helps to get involved in the housekeeping and maintenance tasks that are piling up. As soon as I start getting up to date on stuff it gives me permission to like myself. It's that work ethic thing I guess. Hope you both are feeling better, and thanks for the candor. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 10:21:07 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Judex Subject: Apologies Message: I don't think anyone in this forum will make a 'recovery' as long as they spend so much time immersing themselves in the very thing they claim caused all their problems. A steady diet of negative and abusive opinion without an independant and detached moderator creates a self perpetuating maze that offers no answers to anyone. If you want help, go to a therapist who won't add their negativity to yours. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 10:38:09 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Apologies Message: Dear PT - I very much disagree with what you are saying. Quite a few people have said that communicating with the other people on the forum has helped them in their recovery from their involvement with Maharaji. Sharing experiences with other people who have been through the same thing can be quite therapeutic. I also dispute your statement that the forum is a steady diet of negative and abusive opinion. I have personally found the other people on the forum to be quite supportive of me when I was having a hard time, and also very positive about life in general. Perhaps you are talking about the negative opinion about Maharaji in particular? Regarding therapists: several people on the forum do or have gone to therapists. I also recommend this to people if they are having a hard time. It does help to have a detached person to talk to. But, IMHO, most therapists that I've knows will not be independent and detached on the subject of Maharaji unless they are speaking to a committed premie who won't accept any other view. If someone is trying to free themselves from their involvement with Maharaji, most therapists will try and help them do this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:07:47 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Katie Subject: Apologies Message: Dear Katie, I wish that I had read your post to PT before I wrote my own. You said everything that I wanted to but without the anger. Regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:11:57 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Richard Subject: Apologies - to Richard Message: Dear Richard - Re your post to PT - you never know what's going to get through to a person! Sometimes you need to express the anger (his/her post made me angry too, BTW). Regards from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 16:11:19 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Katie,Richard,Jude,Robyn Subject: Apologies Message: ...and Scott, I can relate to all the above messages from you. I just went yesterday to a new psychiatrist, my first actually,but not first counselor. I feel like I have made tremendous progress in healing from my past (not just about M)helped in part by my participation on this forum. I regard many people here as my support group. I needed the Dr. because I don't understand why my body and moods are not reflecting the growth I've made, and I am feeling depressed despite the anti-depressant I take. She ordered some lab tests.(I wish you had better resources, Richard). I also have several family stressors and responsibilities...kids and parents needing me. I want to feel more enthusiasm and energy. I wish the best to all of you, Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 18:04:36 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Carol Subject: Apologies Message: Dear Carol, Sorry you are going through a hard time also. I wonder if you feel like you may just need a vacation. Not that you have that luxury, I don't know about that. Sometimes when I've needed on it wasn't possible but just knowing that was a big part of my problem helped me some. You certainly have an over flowing plate and you do so well for everyone who needs you. I just wish you some time for yourself. Love you, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 03:22:29 (EST)
From: Carol Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com To: Robyn Subject: Time and tide wait for no one Message: That's a quote (or close to one) I remember M saying. My hospice patient (only 56) died today. I did not expect it so soon. She was a wonderful person and I'm grateful to have known her, even if only for 4 weeks. The last time I saw her I told her she was beautiful (and she was, inside and out) and she returned the comment saying how much she holds in her heart her friends and all the people who come to help her. She gave me more than I gave her. Our lives are passing by... we are all terminal and do not know when we will leave our bodies. I do not want to have regrets about love held back or gifts not given. It is motivation to live life fully when we remember we will die. My youngest son goes to camp for a week on Sunday. I will have some time for re-creation! Love, Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:04:10 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Carol Subject: Time and tide wait for no one Message: Carol I was doing a job once cleaning elderly people's houses/keeping them company and I was asked to sit from time to time with a dying woman. She was dying in the most beautiful house I have even been in. It was like a dream house. It had flags in the garden and a pair of black cats were always sleeping near the front door. A grassy lawn, stone steps and an incredible view to the sea. It was huge. It had a studio upstairs for their painter son (I think the whole upstairs was a studio). The people had built the house themselves. She herself had lived all her life in a very ordinary house she told me. I don't think it mattered to her where she died. The dying woman was in bed in the living room because it was sunny. She was so kind. She had little pain. Your story reminded me of her. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 10:12:40 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Judex Subject: to Carol and Judex Message: Thanks for your posts - I liked reading them both very much. I know I say this all the time, but one probably can't hear it TOO much: you are both very good and loving people. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 10:15:21 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Katie Subject: to Carol and Judex Message: well that's funny cause that's how I feel about you! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 10:25:16 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Judex Subject: to Carol and Judex Message: Thanks Judex! I do need to hear that too. By the way, I'd love to come to Australia some time and so would Peter. Maybe? (It is expensive, as you know.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 10:17:56 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Judex Subject: Time and tide wait for no one Message: One thing I am thankful for is that my (step) sister, who died last year aged 47, never got taken in by all my satsang which I gave her it the seventies. I'm glad she lived her life as an independent free spirit, not following someone else or trying to attain an impossible goal of 'Knowledge'. She was a most loving person, especially towards the end when she knew she was dying. She put more into the world than she took out and all the people who knew her were very glad to have been close to her. After she died the nurses said they were deeply affected by her peaceful passing. She also died in her dream home overlooking the sea in Devon. At her passing I felt grief but also love. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 23:37:14 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Time and tide wait for no one Message: David, She died very young, I'm glad it was peaceful. There are many people I'm glad I did not convince to get Knowledge, including my current husband. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:03:40 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Apologies Message: Dear Passing thru, If you want help, go to a therapist who won't add their negativity to yours. Well, well, well, what a little ray of sunshine you are. I'm so sorry that we have offended your sensibilities by having the temerity to discuss personal problems in a place where you are able to snoop. What you have failed to understand, with your obvious limitations, is that grown-ups do discuss their problems and by doing so try to solve them. You have also failed to note that I said I am trying to get counselling, but have so far failed. However, since you are so interested, perhaps you can help. Can you? Do you have a medical qualification, a counselling diploma or even a psychology degree? Would you really like to offer anything here or are you simply another Maharaji 'droid pissing on the parade as I suspect? All contributions greatfully received or, alternatively, you can go fuck yourself. Regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:31:08 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Richard Subject: Apologies - to Richard Message: Richard: Angry or not I think yours was a well-reasoned and appropriate reply. It certainly had more insight than the post you replied to. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:43:01 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Apologies - to Richard Message: Yeeeaaah Scotty, BTW I will try to reply to your last big post in the other thread but I'll need to do some thinking first. You're wearing my brain out. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 12:55:50 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Richard Subject: Apologies - to Richard Message: Richard: About the last 'defining' post, don't worry about it. It's just food for thought. You don't have to respond, although your responses have been right on the money so far. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:27:29 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Exploited? Message: PT: I agree with you only to the extent that I don't think M ought to be regarded as all that significant in anyone's life, in the long run. What many people are attempting to extricate from is simply the degree to which they were exploited, which of course varies from person to person. The fact that you are here might mean you feel the possibility that at least some exploitation has occurred in your own life. That may not mean you are yet ready to change your overall position, however. Another working hypothesis is that this forum replaces satsang for some current premies. That, IMHO, is a BIG hole. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:04:23 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Passing Gas Message: I don't think anyone in this forum will make a 'recovery' as long as they spend so much time immersing themselves in the very thing they claim caused all their problems. Well thanks for the gratuitous advice, although it doesn't make any sense. You may have noticed that ex-premies are in all stages of 'recovery.' Some of us left the cult many years ago, and have mostly alreadly gone through what some of the recent defectors are experiencing. But I can feel very strongly what ex-premies like Gail, Judex, JM and Selena are feeling. The alternating, anger, fear, depression and exhileration, feeling of freedom and growing self-esteem. I remember that very well, and it would have been great to have a forum like this around to be able to communicate with people who understand what it's like, and who serve as examples that things really do get better. And I agree with Katie, I've seen lots of recovery exhibited on this forum. But maybe that's what you don't like? Listen, Thru, doesn't it just tickle your fantasies that ex-premies would be miserable and be forced to admit the error of their ways, and crawl back to the lotus feet of the lord of the universe? Wouldn't that just make you feel so superior and smug? The last think you want is for any ex-premie to recover because that might just undermine your programming just that much more, now wouldn't it? By the way, you might consider changing your name, because you seem to have become a permanent fixture on the forum, despite your lord's agya to the contrary. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 10:27:41 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Judex Subject: Company of LIE Message: Hi Judex, You say : I am feeling very upset. It must be a stage in my recovery. I have been feeling quite depressed. Now I see where some of it is coming from. The idea that Maharaji will apologise, or do something to rectify what he has done or give back anything I have given him, is nonsense. When I followed him it was 'buyer beware'. Because he is acting like an asshole, of course he has no sense of responsibility for what he teaches. I’ve been through many of these ideas myself too. Everytime I find a new one, I think I’m over with it. Then I discover I’m not, and I stumble on another one. The whole thing is total deceit. I mean, anything I’ve done in the cult, any relationship I had with premies, anything the BM said, everything I believed in related to m’s philosophy, everything I can think of and I still expect from Mr Rawat is not going to do the trick. Maybe that’s what we could call separate myself from this past involvement. The whole thing is wrong. There is nothing good related to the BM and involvement in anything related to him. As long you’re involved in that cult you can’t see straight. These premies are fine guys, I love most of them, but their brain is twisted, and you can’t expect anything from them, as long as they don’t leave the BS. Attachment to premies friends is also a strong tie to the cult. A premie friend I still love a lot called me this morning. Nothing related to k. She was asking me for help about a gift she intended to make to her god-daughter (some other premies daughter). The story was so intricated, they were into such a twisted story with that young girl and her parents family, trying to cheat on them, I was shocked. I don’t want to give details. I didn’t tell her how horrible I thought their idea was, and how bad I felt seeing such a young girl involved in that type of relationship. And these premies think they live on high standards ! I’ve been behaving like them too, not honest in my relationships, not saying what I really meant. I didn’t tell her anything. We’re going to have dinner together next week, and I intend to tell her what I think about their business with that little girl. Maybe she’ll understand something. I know she also heard lies from her parents when she was young, lies from the BM all the time, lies with other people. How can you live like this ? That’s what helped me to understand I was involved in a cult : lies and lies and lies, even with your premies friends. That was too much for me. M’s ‘satsang’ has always been about not saying what he really meant. Premies are tought to LIE. Like that story of saying that the BM really is a sculptor and an inventor. Such a shame of your daddy you don’t dare say what he really does. Such a shame of myself and what I’ve been involved in. Maybe not so much anymore, but I feel that’s what it’s so difficult to recover from. The whole trip is wrong. And you knew it ! ‘Company of truth’ ! Company of lie really. The whole thing is about lying to yourself. M has been lying ALL THE TIME, you’ve been lying all the time to yourself, believing in something you knew was wrong. I am through with trying to forgive him but I do forgive myself for being such an IDIOT as to follow him and I feel sorry that I was so needy and so lost that I thought I needed someone to show me the way, and I ignored the signs that he was in it for his own benefit, not mine. I don’t understand that thing about ‘forgiving myself’. I think that’s the result when you’re out of it. I’m also an IDIOT. But I’m also smart. The guru is not a very smart guy, even though he is not totally stupid. He has never been able to assess there is something wrong even though he has every means to see that his ‘work’ is not successful. Beside making money. As long as IRS doesn’t catch him. Then he might be able to realize how wrong he was. I hope so anyway. Not for him. For the premies and his family. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:30:10 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jean-Michel Subject: Company of LIE Message: Dear Jean-Michel, It is so hard to hear of your, Judex's and Richard's hurts at the hands of BM. I can empathise but not having had such an experience myself that is all I can do and to offer my caring, my listening eyes and support to each of you. Good luck in your journey back, Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 03:32:36 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Thanks Robyn! Message: I understand it must be kind of difficult to hear what some of us exes say. I also listen myself to what I'm saying, and I understand that I've been badly hurt by rawat's lies and attitude for so long, whilst I was in love with him. My understanding is that we tend to believe that anything - good or bad - we've experienced in a 'love' relationship is TRUTH. When it's nothing but a bad experience. There are lots of liars and con man on earth. I hope and think there is more to life than being involved with these guys. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:11:19 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Thanks Robyn! Message: I think some of the people posting here show that there is more to life than liars and con men. As for me, even if I am one, I don't want to be, so I know there's hope for me too. You are going through so much it seems, Jean-Michel. I think it's so important not to stop trusting that there is more to life than the hurt and lies that we have left behind where it belongs, in the silent rooms. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 09:35:23 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Judex Subject: Thanks Robyn & Judex Message: ... there is more to life than the hurt and lies that we have left behind where it belongs, in the silent rooms. That's why I took all my courage and left: there is more to life than Mr Rawat and his 'knowledge' Thanks God, or whoever. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 11:16:21 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Company of BILE Message: Thank you for that,JM. I needed that reminder. Time to hit the to-do list. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 10:51:55 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Judex Subject: Apologies Message: Dear Judex - I do think that feeling bad right now IS a stage in your recovery. I have compared leaving Maharaji to getting a divorce, and you probably know what THAT feels like, and what an emotional roller-coaster it is! It is really hard to realize that someone will never apologize or make amends for something bad that they have done to you. It's even worse when other people collaborate with the person and insist that this person never DID do anything bad to you. I am going through the same problem in my own life with one of my family members. It does make me wonder if it was all MY fault, not theirs. I hope you're not feeling this way about M. You talk about forgiving yourself for being such an IDIOT for following M. This made me laugh, because I was such an IDIOT too. So were most of the rest of us on the forum. Of course, following M was only one of many idiotic things I've done in my life! I have felt (do feel) embarassed about a lot of these things, so I can relate. Judex, I hope you feel better soon, after you go through what you need to. I really respect your openness and ability to communicate. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 23:30:59 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Denying wrongdoing Message: Katie, you said: 'It is really hard to realize that someone will never apologize or make amends for something bad that they have done to you. It's even worse when other people collaborate with the person and insist that this person never DID do anything bad to you. I am going through the same problem in my own life with one of my family members. It does make me wonder if it was all MY fault, not theirs.' As you know I have gone through the same thing with someone in my life. It is over because this person did not admit wrongdoing. I had to write this person off and make a decision to stay away. I had a real relationship with this person, too, so it has been hard to 'pretend they are dead' so to speak. I cannot even begin to imagine trying to resolve this type of thing if the person who denied wrongdoing was my 'Perfect Master'. (Not to mention having an entire community of premies to support the notion that he did nothing wrong.) The worst thing is that M is NOT accessible to rant to or yell at or try to elicit any kind of response from. At least I got to tell my friend what I thought about things face to face. Even though it did no good, it made me feel better. You folks have no way to get any kind of emotional satisfaction from M. I have a renewed respect and empathy for what Judex and Gail, Selena, etc. are going through after reading your post. Thanks, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:25:09 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: VP Subject: Denying wrongdoing Message: It makes me more determined to be happy in my life, that's how I feel. To have meaning. I also feel the dead ashes of the illusions, the pretty pictures. Even though M said there is no path, no journey, I still think it was a quest, a 'thing'. I always loved Herman Hesse especially Siddharta. I couldn't imagine being old and wise and then having to die (and coming to terms with it). Maharaji has been a kind of part of that idealistic search for truth; at least I got to take that ride. Apart from the depression, which comes in bursts & then dissipates, I am getting over it. People like yourself, reading what you say, and the funny posts, help so much. It really grounds me. I adore you all even tho I will probably never meet you in the flesh. That's pretty weird when you think about it - like a bunch of angels all congregating for a good laugh. God, I'm so poetic today! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 22:37:26 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Judex Subject: Glad to hear it Message: Glad to hear that you are doing well. Don't be so sure you will never see us...there may be a chance for some of us to get together in the future. Have Scott email me. I like the idea of angels congregating. That is a cool image. (I could work that into a painting sometime.) I never thought I would meet anyone from the forum either, but I am meeting someone soon...:) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 23:02:00 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Judex Subject: Apologies Message: Dear Judex I am there with you. It's normal for you to feel this way. I have gone there and back again so many times. and still am. Try to identify what your involvement with M has done exactly, to make you come to this point. If you can identify some key issues, then you can start to problem solve and act on them. i.e., for me it's a matter of years of avoidance and not dealing with 'the world' - and I have had to make up for it by learning specific skills in assertiveness. It's different for everyone yet so similar in some ways. I know you can key in on it if you try and once you see what you have stuffed or denied you can address it. Just my opinion but it is an informed one, at least from personal experience. You are great and I like reading your posts becasue they are so honest. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 23:27:57 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Thankyou Message: To everyone who posted on this thread. You have all given such good acknowledgement, support and feeling of security. The problem is deeper than I had thought, that's all. I see how hard it is to tell the truth to myself about Maharaji (and be clear on it) and those close to me who are premies. I still tend to want to avoid it. Thank you all so much for being here, I love you all and have from the start. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 01:14:22 (EST)
From: Another Email: None To: Gail & Richard Subject: 'The'Jack Of All the Asses Message: IE: Grace Gail m'Lady, to your response, Which leads one to ponder, if you still practice and there was no moment of learning given, then how would you 'Know'. Which 3 and 4 are you taking a stab at? The dictum or the order mused upon in the thread? Either way there are two missing. Sort of like ol'e Kirpal Singh was missing a couple when he was on tour.(Pre Muktananda mentor and second string, self proclaimed rival to the the House of the Swan) Also a note for Richard from 'The' Jack of All Asses. In another era you would have fed me to the lions. Buddy, you need some therapy or perhaps a tall glass of high octane, single malt, no ice! I have a deep body of work covering such diversities as nuclear winter, famine, trite meanderings of the frailty in human relationships and even country ballads. If you want to advance your aspirations as poetry critic, you may want to apply to some of the literary houses in London or New York. Holding sway on a narrow focus web site will only keep one wheel turning in the mud. Just what part of sense are you having trouble with? I trust any and all, because the mind has nothing to do with the heart. This GRACE is Immutable,Infinite, Pure,________, _________, you fill in the blanks because at best, our individual anomalies will only render useless in the presence of the Creators Perfection. That my friends is a law written long before worlds were, ink was ever drawn, men and women gave utterance and binary code became a more. I hold no malice, but lets bet that when we die, one of us will be right and one of us will be other than that. In his Name and (Believe it or not) by the Grace of you once knew, Another, 'The' Jack of All the Asses. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 08:41:16 (EST)
From: Becky Email: None To: Another Subject: 'The'Jack Of All the Asses Message: Are you saying that you will be right and someone else wrong? sanctimonious as the deepest religious fanatic. however, you write beautifully, and I agree with what you say. only the creator, the cause of causes, the force of truth, the one behind the spontaneous moment of creation will know WHO IS RIGHT, and WHO IS WRONG. If this forum is too narrow for you, why not widen it with some of your wisdom? Besides, it's a little harmless entertainment, more than watching a chat show or some such other drivel. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 11:43:34 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Becky Subject: IMHO Message: 'only the creator, the cause of causes, the force of truth, the one behind the spontaneous moment of creation will know WHO IS RIGHT, and WHO IS WRONG' Who's right and who's wrong about what? Hells bells, isn't the creator 'to blame' for everything? since it is, as you say 'the cause of causes'. Not sure who said that, you or Another. -barfed up much of my spiritual nonsense in '82 and felt much better. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 12:58:05 (EST)
From: Becky Email: None To: John Subject: IMHO Message: I'm not blaming the creator, and I hate all this sanctimonious 'right and wrong' bullshit. What I'm trying to say is that no human being can say another human being is 'wrong' in what they believe, feel, experience, know etc. etc. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:56:27 (EST)
From: Emile Email: None To: Becky Subject: IMHO Message: Right-on Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:46:46 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Becky Subject: 'The'Jack Of All the Asses Message: however, you write beautifully, and I agree with what you say. Becky, you are VERY easy to please, I'm afraid. This kind of opaque, 'spiritual' obscurantism (?) is worthless. It's almost impossible to guess what this guy's saying and when some meaning does peak through it's empty cliche at best. The other stuff is just ugly spleen. I guess you just REALLY like that 'spiritual' stuff, huh? only the creator, the cause of causes, the force of truth, the one behind the spontaneous moment of creation will know WHO IS RIGHT, and WHO IS WRONG. Who says? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 09:12:50 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: YetAnother Subject: 'The'Jack Of All the Asses Message: Also a note for Richard from 'The' Jack of All Asses. In another era you would have fed me to the lions. Buddy, you need some therapy or perhaps a tall glass of high octane, single malt, no ice! Well I have read your original post and my reply to it several times and I STILL have no idea what you are talking about. What is your point? Regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 10:38:13 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: 'The'Jack Of All the Asse Subject: Huh? Message: Call me dumb, but the above post is gibberish to me. Am I missing something? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:57:18 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Another Subject: 'The'Jack Of All the Asses Message: 'I hold no malice, but lets bet that when we die, one of us will be right and one of us will be other than that.' If you hold no malice, why would you want to bet that? Besides why in the world would anyone want to make a bet like that? Isn't this entering the realm of religion? My god is the real god, etc. It sounds like you're trying to instill 'fear of God's wrath' into this, talking about who will be right and who will be wrong when we die. If I love god and laugh at M, what does that make me? In league with 'The devil'? You use pretty language, but I sense a great deal of malice. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 22:59:53 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Mickey the Pharisee Rocks! Message: Hey all - Michael Dresbach (aka Mickey the Pharisee) sent us a tape of some music he made with two of his bands - A Cruel Hoax, and The Wonders of Science, and I've just gotta tell you that Mickey can really sing, and that he's my newest New Wave hero. My fave band was 'A Cruel Hoax' (except for the Hunt songs), Michael, but they are both great. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 09:25:58 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Katie Subject: Mickey the Pharisee Rocks! Message: Dear Katie, The next time your in a 'make some tapes for Robyn and Jade mood' maybe you could send me a copy of Michael's music! Thanks honey, Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:54:16 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Mickey the Pharisee Rocks! Message: Yes, the tape's great. Mickey, in email I told you I heard Oingo Boingo. But I was listening to it again the other day and realized that, even more, you sound like David Byrne sometimes. We should put on an ex festival someday. Our bands can play and we'll let Chris sit in. I mean, YOU'LL let Chris sit in. You would, wouldn't you? Chris and Michael Bolton. Hey, I won't miss it. And who was that 'Blinded me with Science' guy? Some of the more whimsical stuff reminds me of him. But the point is, it's all good. Katie, what I told Michael, I'm sure you'll concur, there's just a really nice vibe to the whole thing, isn't there? Positive, enthusiastic without being false or sucky. Even the sadder pieces have that spirit. Really, I don't understand why you don't get another band together and keep on playing. Sure, the music business isn't what it once was and sure, in particular, we're way old and everything. Doesn't mean we can't play some neat stuff for oursleves and others. Oh yeah, a bit of Clash too. Some Tubes. VERY New Wave. P.S. Does anyone recall a band in L.A. in the early eighties fronted by a couple of premies named Telekin? And how about Daniel Cainer in England? Danny and Sally were my roommates when I first moved to L.A. I heard from them a bit last year. He's recording people in England, they've had babies. I think my militant anti-M ('Aunty Em! Aunty Em!') thoughts didn't sit too well with them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 14:59:57 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Mickey the Pharisee Rocks! Message: I agree that all of Mickey's music has a good feel to it, although I really liked the pieces that Mickey wrote and sang the best. I think his own music has some of that dB's/Athens Georgia/Mitch Easter sound. I really liked that sound (I assume Mickey did too.) P.S. Jim, when do we get to hear YOUR tapes? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 15:09:36 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Mickey the Pharisee Rocks! Message: Katie, I don't really know the db's but I think you're right about the Athens Georgia sound . There IS a bit of the REM feel, not morose, too-precious R.E.M., the good stuff. As for us, we're doing it. I don't know. We're going to have to come up with soem art and a title as well as finish all these tracks. Anyone got any ideas? The band's the X-Flies and we sound... well, our enginner/producer thinks we sound a lot like Lou Reed. We're completely open to any suggestions. (Katie, our stuff is a LOT simpler than Mickey's. You know, not as many changes or parts or anything. Just a different style.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 17:23:57 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Bands needed! Message: Katie, Wouldn't it be great to get everyone to play music next spring at the ex-premie convention? I would also like a copy of the Mickey tape, if you are taping them sometime. It's got to be better than this Blue Aquarius one Michael sent me (snicker! Michael, I do like the LOTU one.) VP Saw REM for free in Legion Field 1981-front row Owns no current music unless Barney the Dinosaur sings it Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 19:58:20 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: Jim Subject: Mickey the Pharisee Rocks! Message: Jim, If you're talking about 'she blinded me with science'it's a Thomas Dolby song.TD btw,put out a new record within the last year or so after a long time away from the music biz. Come to think of it if I'm not mistaken,Gary Numan also put out a record in the past little while after not having done so for a while. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 22:29:03 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: Mickey the Pharisee Rocks! Message: >Our bands can play and we'll let Chris sit in If we had a couple guitars, Marshall amps and some beer we might actually get along OK. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 16:18:04 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Katie Subject: Mickey the Pharisee Rocks! Message: Hi everybody! I've been away again. I've just returned from a week of Diocesan Senior High Camp in Boulder Creek, CA. It was great fun, the kids were wonderful and funny. I'm glad that you like the tape, Katie and Jim. Where was everybody when I was making this stuff? We were the darling of critics but most people didn't know what to do with us! I grant you permission to make illegal copies for who ever wants them. Now I guess that I should send the photos from the records so you can see what I looked like when I wanted to be a Pop Star! Padre Mickey Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 21:12:18 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Bob Hoskins as Maharaji!! Message: By the way, Katie, Bo Derek is excellent. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 21:30:27 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: M casting - incidental Message: We saw a guy that looked just like M at the gas station tonite, He had sort of long curly hair greased back, was an overweight Hindi/Indian guy. I almost went up and asked him what his name was and if he was interested in starring in an indie movie. He had an overweight redhead waiting for him in the car (Durga in disguise?). I vote we cast M as an unknown. P.S. My husband asked me once how I felt about M now. I told him that if M came to my door and said that his car had broken down outside, I'd call a tow-truck for him, but I wouldn't let him in the house. (For anyone that thinks this is hateful, bear in mind that M would probably be more comfortable waiting in his luxury car than on my worn-out sofa). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 21:47:06 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Katie Subject: M casting - incidental Message: I agree with Jim, Bo Derek is perfect! My choice of Bridgette Fonda wasn't quite right with me since I think she it too good of an actress to play that dopey woman. ps - I am not sure I'd call him a tow truck, you are very nice. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 21:00:50 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: M's Fireside Chat Message: Mister Mole told us that M has recently given a 'fireside chat' kind of satsang mentioning, amongst other things, his 'enemies'. Did anyone out there actually hear this talk? If so, could you please paraphrase it for us as best you can? Thanks, Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 17:14:09 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: M's Fireside Chat Message: Don't get too excited, Jim. I didn't hear it either. I want to appeal to all that I would like to hear it, too. Apparently it was one of those phone things, not a video, so it won't be in the catalog. But, remember, this is NOT a cult... If anyone heard it, please post. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 00:58:18 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: VP Subject: 'this is not a cult' Message: kinda reminiscent of ' I am not a crook'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:19:06 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: G's mom Subject: 'this is not a cult' Message: Exactly :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:35:54 (EST)
From: Becky Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Persuasion Message: I've just bought a second hand book called 'The Techniques of Persuasion' by A.C. Brown. Its a very battered Penguin, but might still be in print. V. interesting. Two Qs: What is the different between a cult and a religion? does a cult centre on a personality and a religion on the creator? Can anyone actually give a 'scientific' (Ref. Keekay) lowdown on M's techniques of persuasion. He's really got it down to a fine art. do you think if the techniques could be unpicked, then we could all learn to be maharaji clones? Following that train of thought, wouldn't it be fun to go to a program, and one by one start shouting 'I'M Maharaji', 'No I'M Maharaji!', 'That man on the stage is an imposter! call the guru police!', 'he stole those techniques from my great-great-great grandmother!', 'I'M maharaji!', 'No I'M Maharaji!'. Do you think we'd get hussled out of the program? Can anyone else think of naughty rebellious things to do to pop the burgeoning bubble? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 16:58:05 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Becky Subject: Persuasion Message: Naughty? Rebellious? OK how about - How come you wear all that grease in your hair? How come you dance around like that? How come you don't take your shirt off anymore when you dance around like that? How come you have alchohol problems? How come your followers are so rude and arrogant and selfish? How does it feel to pretend to be God? don't you feel the least bit ridiculous? Do you really have a mistress? Is she younger than Durga? What do people do in darshan (if it's an introductory that would be a good one) ... |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 00:11:26 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Selena Subject: Feeling sentimental Message: I moved away from the 90 Albert Street ashram (side apartment only) 23 years ago today. I was feeling so sentimental that I went to the house and stood outside my old door. All I could do was cry. It really was a good time back then. WHAT A FANTASY! Happy Canada Day to all you Canucks out there! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 00:48:09 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gail Subject: Happy Canada Day!! Message: Hey Gail, We're back at my place for a pit stop. A few friends coming over, smoke, drink, lame fireworks, jam, sleep, back in the studio tomorrow.... happy Canada day! hiccup! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:30:05 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Gail Subject: And what about us Whigs? Message: Gail: Are you playing favorites here, or what? Now, we know your sympathies are naturally with the counter-revolution, but the revolutionaries deserve some attention too, don't they? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 22:24:42 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: To the Whigs! Message: Cheers! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 02:16:11 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Gail Subject: To the Whigs! Message: Gail: Jolly good show, thanks! -Scott One of the 'un-British' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 14:22:22 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Judex, please Message: Look I have thought about this. I can't think of anything to add. Agree or disagree, but I said what I said. I can't take it back, I can't change it, I may be right or wrong about it but it's done. I said something, if it has no meaning to you then let it go. I cant explain it any different to when I said it. Judex, I don't want to discuss this privately (even if your email was working) and I can't 'let it go', not without letting YOU go with it. That is, sure, I could forget about it etc. but would I really want to communicate any further with you? With someone who's willing to say thing but not, if necessary, to retract them? (Well, I guess we all do that all the time with premies. But does anyone here RESPECT them for that? I don't think so.) Listen, it's very simple. You just go back to the words in question: If you really wanted some action from Maharaji you would be doing more than just writing letters to Linda Gross. The way you are fooling yourself that what you are saying is legitimate is obvious in so many ways Jim. I don't give a shit what Joe or JW say. You're not even willing to try what others who think differently suggest. and you ask yourself, 'Do I really believe this?' If the answer's 'yes' there must be a reason. That's what I'm asking for. If the answer's 'no' then you tell me. That's called a retraction. If you get to that point and you're trying to be candid then you explain as sincerely as you can why you said it if you don't believe it. That's called responsible communication. In other words, it's NOT true that you 'can't take it back'. People do that all the time. Or, alternatively, I don't accept that you 'can't explain it any different[ly]'. When you tell someone their efforts are wrong you normally have a reason for saying that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 05:02:35 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jim Subject: Judex, please Message: If you really wanted some action from Maharaji you would be doing more than just writing letters to Linda Gross. Jim what I was meaning by this is that I think writing to Linda Gross is fairly ineffectual. The way you are fooling yourself that what you are saying is legitimate is obvious in so many ways Jim. What I meant by this was a continuation of the thought about 'rackets'. My own thoughts. My thoughts belong to me. If you think I am right or wrong then that is up to you. End of story. I don't give a shit what Joe or JW say. You're not even willing to try what others who think differently suggest. Just in case you didn't notice, several people expended quite a lot of time and energy on a futile discussion with you. I suppose you are going to re-print what they said a few times as well, and ask them to explain themselves as well, are you? Why don't you leave me alone, Jim. You have no say in what I say. Just like you can say whatever you like to people here, so can I, unless it is not physically threatening. So don't interfere with my rights of free speech by teasing me to keep going on and on and on fighting with you or arguing over something that was over days ago. Why don't you address the others who critized you as well? Or are they more your match in size and less vulnerable due to longer years free from Maharaji? I am about 7 weeks free. I was saying that your treatment of other people was affecting me being able to get the help I need here. That's what I'm here for. I'm not here to match wits with you or to argue with you. So leave me alone. Do you understand what I am saying? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 02, 1998 at 13:27:14 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judex Subject: Judex, please Message: Judex, I guess I'm supposed to treat you differnt than other people becasue you just left the cult or something? Is that it? Well, sorry Judex, I don't buy that. Your final wish is that I leeave you alone. Fine, I will, but not before I respond to your last communication. Hey, if it's too painful to read, don't. Jim what I was meaning by this is that I think writing to Linda Gross is fairly ineffectual. Well that's not what you said. What's wrong, don't they speak English in that cult of yours? If this is really what you meant, then please note how different it is from what you actually said. If you had any manners, you'd apologize for the error. At the very least, you should watch yourself in the future, going around saying things and everything. What I meant by this was a continuation of the thought about 'rackets'. My own thoughts. My thoughts belong to me. If you think I am right or wrong then that is up to you. End of story. Oh, you keep wanting to end the story, don't you? Look, Judex, your thoughts are your own and no one's trying to take them from you. You don't have to 'de-Jim' yourself or build a fortress or anything. On the other hand, those weren't just your thoughts, those were your words and, as you know, you shared them with us all. Just like anyone else here, you're accountable for your words. Is that too left-brained for you or something? Isn't that the very thing you were trying to criticize me for, my words? Get real. Just in case you didn't notice, several people expended quite a lot of time and energy on a futile discussion with you. I suppose you are going to re-print what they said a few times as well, and ask them to explain themselves as well, are you? What kind of foolishness is this? You want the right to think and say what you want but you're not willing to extend that to other people? I didn't agree with 'several people'. What the fuck is your problem with that? Why don't you leave me alone, Jim. You have no say in what I say. Just like you can say whatever you like to people here, so can I, unless it is not physically threatening. So don't interfere with my rights of free speech by teasing me to keep going on and on and on fighting with you or arguing over something that was over days ago. Your right of free speech isn't at issue here. What is is your accountability for your words. I'm sorry you're so confused about that. I'm also sorry that one of your 'supporter's' doesn't jump in and explain it to you. That's really too bad. Or are they more your match in size and less vulnerable due to longer years free from Maharaji? I am about 7 weeks free. I was saying that your treatment of other people was affecting me being able to get the help I need here. That's what I'm here for. I'm not here to match wits with you or to argue with you. So leave me alone. Do you understand what I am saying? Yeah, I'll leave you alone, no problem. But, really, isn't the question why don't you leave ME alone? But then, of course, you were just asking me to leave CHRIS alone, weren't you? 'Free speech' eh? Tricky shit. But before I go, my treatment of Chris is my business, isn't it? As for your 'needs', sorry, this isn't the Judex hospital. Besides, do you even know what your needs are? I doubt it. No, don't worry, I won't bug you, if you don't bug me. Deal? Deal. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:11:00 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Jim Subject: Here goes nothing........... Message: Your right of free speech isn't at issue here. What is is your accountability for your words. I'm sorry you're so confused about that. I'm also sorry that one of your 'supporter's' doesn't jump in and explain it to you. I think that to be held 'accountable' for all my words, either here or anywhere else, would be my worst nightmare. You're obviously a good lawyer Jim, but good lawyers often make poor judges. This is a very dynamic medium and posts can be made on the fly without too much concern for over-interpretation. On the other hand, many posts absolutely require 'reading between the lines' and tolerance is a must. I don't see much wrong with the content of your message Jim but your style in this particular topic has been aggressive towards Judex, who is obviously upset. On the other hand Judex, you chose to do battle with Jim (perhaps in the hope of a famous victory?). So since it would be tragic if neither of you spoke again, here's what you can do. You can both flame me out for interfereing, bawl me out for butting in to a private argument, blame everything on me and then back to business. 'Kay. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:32:17 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Richard Subject: Here goes nothing........... Message: Richard you're right - why did I take Jim on? I ask myself what my true motives were for challenging him. Maybe not all noble. It seems to go back to school days, that's all I can think. PS I'm so glad you are posting more; it's lovely to hear you. I am amazed at how strong people can be even when things are difficult. Now look at you - being the peacemaker! That's the hardest role of all isnt it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:50:55 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Judex Subject: Here goes nothing II.......... Message: Thanks for not flaming me Judex. Jim? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 10:08:47 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Richard Subject: Here goes nothing II.......... Message: If I could just add one more thing here, richard. Sometimes I think it's best to leave well enough alone. We don't all have to come to a consensus on this Forum. It might be best for people to have their own space. Now why would I flame you? what do you think I am, a dragon or something? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 10:11:32 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Judex Subject: Here goes nothing II.......... Message: 'Nuff said. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 14:06:28 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Richard Subject: Thanks, Richard Message: Richard, Why in the world would I flame you here? I don't agree that I di anythnig with Judex but stick up for myself. And how? By simply asking for an explanation of what she meant by some very ugly accusations. Now, here's what I actually think. I think Judec suffers from a common malaise shared by some otherwise nice, honest people. She thinks she can somehow do something, anything to avoid having to deal with her own words. Like as if she wishes that if she could only squint at it in the right way it'll disappear. But for what? To avoid a little honesty. No, that's really unimpressive. Judex is just being stubborn. Her comment about my efforts with Linda Gross, etc. was just her striking out for some reason. She wanted to start something. Fine, so that's what happened and now all I see is a stubborn person unwilling to simply call a spade a spade and apologize. Judex, you care about what people here think of you, I know that. We all do. Well one thing I'd bet my last dollar on is that everyone here who likes you and wishes you well would actually respect you best if you dealt with this honestly. And that doesn't mean just saying 'well I said it' or some other such triviality. Sure, maybe Scott might have some 'new ideas' on how to 'parse' this issue a little nicer, but I think that even he would agree that you should stand up for your words or be willing to dismantle them. Now was THAT too aggressive, Richard? Honestly, thanks for your concern. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 14:26:09 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Here goes nothing again. Message: Dear Jim - You wrote: Well one thing I'd bet my last dollar on is that everyone here who likes you and wishes you well would actually respect you best if you dealt with this honestly. And that doesn't mean just saying 'well I said it' or some other such triviality. Jim, I still respect Judex just as much as I did before you started this whole campaign. I don't think that she made 'ugly allegations' about you at all. She said some things in the context of an argument, as we all do. I am not sure if she 'should' apologize to you or not, because frankly I don't recall the exact context of the argument and I don't care enough about it to look it up in the archives. What I wish (and I wish both of you well) is that you would just drop this whole thing, or if that's not possible, take it off line. I think you've gotten what you are going to get from Judex. You have reprinted the now-infamous 'Linda Gross' quote at least six times, maybe more. This is excessive. I am sick of reading it, and I personally wish that Judex had never said it because I am tired of having you bring it up in every post to her. Just my opinion, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 14:46:28 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Yeah, right Message: Well once again, Katie, you really want it all ways: you want to defend Judex's words ('I am not sure if she 'should' apologize to you or not, because frankly I don't recall the exact context of the argument and I don't care enough about it to look it up in the archives.'), you're not sure if that's true or not ('I am not sure if she 'should' apologize to you or not, because frankly I don't recall the exact context of the argument') AND you're not willing to find out ('I don't care enough about it to look it up in the archives'). So you care, but you don't care. You just want me to shut the fuck up, right? Sorry, Katie, that really doesn't cut it. For one thing, there was no 'context' that I'm aware of that lends some special meaning to Judex's words. Thank you, though, for giving Judex the benefit of the doubt on that. Maybe, just maybe, she was justified in saying that to me. Oh well, who cares? It's the thought that counts. Tedious? Yes, it's tedious. But here's my option -- drop it or push it. If I drop it, tell me, do you really think I'd want to have anything further to do with a person who can lash out at me like that and doesn't have the character to deal with it? Get real. So, I press it. Who's the stubborn one, Katie? As for tqaking it off-line, who forced you to read this thread? You're always doing this! If you'd rather talk about cats, you can. I never read that thread. Should I? And on and on. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 15:09:20 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yeah, right Message: Jim, as I have said several times. I read almost all the threads to check for death threats and stuff like that. I do it as a favor to Brian. (He doesn't force me, BTW.) Want to take over that job? Yeah, you are right, I just want you to shut the fuck up (well YOU said it!) I posted my above message out of total frustration. IMHO it doesn't reflect well on you to keep dragging up this stuff. But, if you insist on keeping up this fight with Judex, fine. I'll butt out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 15:36:47 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Cat, off topic Message: Imjay (pig latin for you know who, since he has rigged his computer to notifiy him when someone writes his name) just gave me a great idea. Since he accurately described me as ''a little of this, a little of that'' referring to my new age/rational split personality, whenever I want to indulge in the former, I'll just use the above subject. Then Imjay won't read it and I can be as flakey as the moment warrants. Without having to justify it! There's more than one way to skin an 'Alpha Wolf'! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 15:44:26 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Cat, off topic Message: Yeah, I kind of suspected that computer-rigging thing, Gerry (I really did, no lie. It was beginning to seem a little suspicious.) Thanks for the tip. How's the boys? Not to mention your arm, and your house. I see you still have a working computer - at least that's a plus (watch out for reprogramming of keyboards, though!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 15:58:19 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Cat, off topic Message: Actually, Imjay said way back when that he had set up his system to notify him when his name came up. Wish I knew how to do that. He must be pretty good with computers, too. Damn! Anyways, my arm is healing nicely and I've discouraged that type of play with my hand as prey. The house is a wreck but I'm working on it. I'm walking around with a pink plastic Uzi style squirtgun in my waist band. I feel like Dirty Harry, just waiting for one of them to ''make my day''. Actually I'm plowing through a 900 page book on web design, which allows me to be at the computer ostentatiously (and really) working while being able to indulge my passion for the forum. (Notice I didn't say addiction-could I be in denial?) Hey, maybe I DO want to be something when I grow up! I'm not holding my breath, though. Never is Patty. Hi to Peter Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 16:51:14 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Gerry Subject: Cat, off topic Message: Gerry - I got a free Geocities home page, which is a great place to work on web site design (they sort of hold your hand until you get started). You have to have ads on your site (why it's free), but otherwise it's kind of fun. But maybe you already have a place like that. Drop me an line and we can exchange URL's. My site is really rudimentary. You probably know this, but you can make a little bit of money selling books and CD's off your website. (It's perfect for me since I love to make book recommendations, and the people on the forum probably get sick of it.) Peter is fine - he is just really busy. He is still boycotting but otherwise reading and posting. P.S. My sister had to get a Super Shooter 50 squirt gun to train one of her cats! Mostly to train him to keep out of her bedroom at night (he loved her TOO much!) That way she didn't have to get out of bed. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:59:36 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Cat, off topic Message: Gerry and Katie, My kitten is about 13 weeks old and my arms also look shredded! I also have gashes in my legs from the leaps and climbs up them! But I wouldn't give up Chester's antics just because of a little pain. A friend suggested we cut his nails! Why didn't I think of that? I got a little iguana a few days ago. Chester was enjoying the warmth of the light when the lizard moved suddenly...Chester hissed and jumped a foot and slunk away. He attacks and carries around in his mouth like prey a small stuffed duckling. Chester is orange and white. carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:06:07 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Carol Subject: Cat, off topic Message: Hi Carol - Chester sounds great (& so does the iquana.) I am really lucky in that one of my cats even keeps his own claws trimmed (he bites them). I have to clip the other cat's claws and just gave Gerry my advice on how to do it, which is to wrap the cat up in a towel with one paw sticking out. Robyn had an even better idea, which was to use an old pillowcase with one corner cut out. P.S. Got your e-mails - thanks! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 06:18:55 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Carol Subject: Cat, off topic Message: Dear Carol,I also had an orange & white cat, dearly loved, called 'Milo'. Ginger moggies are great! Still miss that bossy cat. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 09:55:53 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Judex Subject: Cat, off topic Message: Dear Carol, Judex, Katie, and Gerry, This is to fun! My cat, Mee-sturrrr Noah Cat is orange and white and we have had him since his mom died and we fed him with a bottle so he is my baby. Love, Robyn We'll soon know all there is to know about everyone's cats while we are also participating in this covert operation. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 10:40:01 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Judex Subject: Cat, off topic Message: Judex - Me too! Same coloring and same name. He died when he was 2 - very sad. He was a great cat and very beautiful as well. P.S. I know what 'moggies' are - but some people on here might not - we call them 'alley cats' sometimes in the US. OR 'mixed breed' if you're trying to be polite... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 19:15:42 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Gerry Subject: Cat, off topic Message: Dear NYPD, I just LOVE it!!! You know it will ALWAYS catch my attention! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 22:07:47 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Yeah, right Message: IMHO it doesn't reflect well on you to keep dragging up this stuff. But, if you insist on keeping up this fight with Judex, fine. I'll butt out. Aren't you curious why Judex would have said that? No, I guess not. But tell me, what if she'd said it to you? Think about it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 22:43:45 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yeah, right Message: Dear Jim - You asked me: Aren't you curious why Judex would have said that? No, I guess not. Am I curious about why Judex said that? No, you're correct, I'm not. I would guess that she said it because she didn't agree with some of the tactics you use on the forum. You also asked: But tell me, what if she'd said it to you? Think about it. I am assuming that you are referring to Judex saying the oft-quoted following paragraph to me. In other words (and changing the words to fit my situation, with apologies to Judex, who did NOT say the following to me. Let me make THAT real clear!) Hypothetical Judex said: If you really wanted some action from Maharaji you would be doing more than just [posting on this web site.] The way you are fooling yourself that what you are saying is legitimate is obvious in so many ways, [Katie]. I don't give a shit what Joe or JW say. You're not even willing to try what others who think differently suggest. What if she said it to me? Here's what I'd say (and you've read a lot of my posts before): Dear hypothetical Judex, I disagree with your assessment of my motives and actions. I don't post on this web site to 'get action from Maharaji' - I post here in order to help people who are having a hard time separating themselves from Maharaji and his organization. I do feel that what I am saying is legitimate, and I don't understand why you see it as obviously not legitimate. I'd really appreciate it if you could give me some examples of this. Also, I do think that I am 'willing to try what people who think differently suggest'. In fact, I have learned a lot of what people who 'think differently' think just from posting on this web site, and I have changed a lot of my opinions and feelings about Maharaji, about premies, and even some of my thoughts about life in general. Regards from hypothetical Katie What do you think, Jim? I think that's what I'd say. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 22:54:06 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yeah, right postscript. Message: Oh yeah, Jim, I have posted many MANY posts like this, mainly to premies. In fact, sometimes I think people are going to get incredibly sick of me sounding like a broken record (I know I do.) Most of the time the people that I am replying to don't answer. When they do, they say something like 'thanks for the input', or 'I can see your viewpoint', or 'I guess we'll have to agree to disagree'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:11:56 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Hypo Katie Message: What do you think, Jim? I think that's what I'd say. Katie, there isn't such a big difference between whaat you would and I did say. We're both asking for an explanation. You, in your inimitable way (well, maybe not inimitable would be extremely polite and diplomatic with her. I don't know if that's a mask, good manners or just what comes naturally. I mean, Hypo Judex just told you that your efforts are bunk and that it's extremely obvious that you're just fooling yourself. Plus, you're pig-headed. I would think that Hypo Judex would have pissed Hypo Katie -- or Hypo Anyone -- off. But, in the end, I don't care. You're free to talk however you want. (Yeah, believe it or not, I actually think that.) Anyway, like I did, you asked for an explanation. Now, what if this is what you got for an answer: Why don't you leave me alone, Katie. You have no say in what I say. Just like you can say whatever you like to people here, so can I, unless it is not physically threatening. So don't interfere with my rights of free speech by teasing me to keep going on and on and on fighting with you or arguing over something that was over days ago. Why don't you address the others who critized you as well? Or are they more your match in size and less vulnerable due to longer years free from Maharaji? I am about 7 weeks free. I was saying that your treatment of other people was affecting me being able to get the help I need here. That's what I'm here for. I'm not here to match wits with you or to argue with you. So leave me alone. Do you understand what I am saying? My guess is that, you being Katie, would be somewhat stymied. On the one hand, here's this woman pleading vulnerability. On the other, she's still kicking you a bit (like when she accused you of trying to start a cult of your own or when she proudly exclaimed that she was 'un-Katying' herself). I guess you being you, you WOULD just let it drop. BUT, I don't know what else you'd ever want to say to her. Anyway, that's just MY speculation. What do you think YOU would do? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:23:20 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sorry about the HTML Message: Obviously the last two paragraphs shouldn't be italicized. By the way, I just read your p.s. Yes, Katie, you do have gentillity down pat. And I've seen you get quite far with that at times. Really I have. I admire your equanimity (which you only seem to lose with me from time to time). A long time ago, when I was fighting with Chris, I turned to you for support. That is, I just wanted you to ask him if he was for real more or less. You tried to some extent, were rebuffed and ultimately told me to please not drag you into this kind of thing again. Still, again with Chris, sometimes with Mili and now with Judex, you're the one who jumps in. Now why do you think that is? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:43:47 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sorry about the HTML Message: Jim: You wrote : Still, again with Chris, sometimes with Mili and now with Judex, you're the one who jumps in. Now why do you think that is? Do you really want to know? I guarantee that you are not going to like the answer. It pertains to your posting style. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:53:20 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: HTML problem Message: Jim, I've been correcting a lot of your HTML lately, and the problem is NOT that you're forgetting to close it. It's that you are forgetting to put the slash before the 'i' when you close your italics (or the slash before whatever when you close it). JW, if you're reading this, you do this too. Just thought you might like to know. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:22:35 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Okay Message: Do you really want to know? I guarantee that you are not going to like the answer. It pertains to your posting style. Hit me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 10:48:51 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Okay Message: OK. Regarding Mili, CD, and Judex. It makes me very angry when you either start a thread, or break into another thread (especially one that has nothing to do with the subject you are bringing up), with posts which have titles containing the person's name and a derogatory statement. Some examples that I can recall are posts titled 'Mili is a Liar', 'Judex Pecks', and I am sure there are ones about CD being braindead, etc. To reiterate, I like Judex, Mili, and CD, and I get mad (perhaps UNREASONABLY mad), when you title posts with derogatory statements about them. Particularly when they are in threads that have nothing to do with the subject you want to talk about. Or when they are repetitive (same post over and over). I might be the only person on the forum that feels this way. But you did ask why I got angry at you and that's the reason. That's all. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:36:50 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hypo Katie Message: Jim, this is getting a little TOO hypothetical for me to even answer. THe other question was getting within the realm of improbability (i.e. it was very hard for me to imagine being in that situation with Judex), and this one is too improbable for me to work up a hypo. No one on the forum has ever talked to me like that except for maybe Jack Tuff. Jack and I managed to work it out by e-mail - he had some misconceptions about what I thought and vice versa. I'm not sure if you and Judex can work this out. Maybe you can't. Maybe it doesn't matter if you don't ever speak to her again? The thing I object to is you hounding her in public on the forum. I don't think that's going to solve anything. I'd prefer it if you and she could just kind of co-exist without having to make posts about her. I don't know if that's possible. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:07:38 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Hypo Katie Message: Katie, Why don't you just say this to Judex: 'Judex, As you know, I care a lot about you and really admire the steps you've recently taken to find truth and sanity in your life. I like your wit, your sentiment and often learn a lot from what you have to say. I've really felt for you when you've expressed your confusion and some of the pain you've suffered because of it. But even the fact that you share yourself so openly here on the forum reflects so much integrity and strength. Like I say, I feel that I've learned a lot from you already. You know, I've looked at this fight you're having with Jim and it does seem really unnecessary. You've asked Jim to just leave you alone but I wonder, is that really necessary? This all started admirably enough. As I recall, there were two issues between you: Jim's treatment of Chris which you spoke out against and the whole question of 'forgiveness'. On the latter issue, tt seems that you think Jim gave short shrift to your comments and those of Scott's, Robyn's and whoever else disagreed with him. But let's be fair about this, Judex. Much as you thought your position made sense, Jim didn't. He's entitled to that opinion like you are yours, wouldn't you say? Maybe it frustrated the hell out of you that he didn't budge on the issue. I know the feeling. Jim and I often disagree on things too and I'm not always sure he's really considering what I have to say. Still, he SAYS he is. What else can I -- or you -- do? As for Chris, Judex, there, too, I'm sympathetic. Chris is such a harmless kind of guy and all Jim does is make fun of him. But, I have to admit, I can understand Jim's frustration a bit here too. Sometimes I too wonder if Chris isn't purposely trying to teach ex-premies a lesson for actually indulging in dialogue. Anyway, you got angry and said some pretty nasty things to Jim. Well, at least he thinks so. I don't know what you wee talking about myself but, to be fair, I do think that when you tell someone that their efforts are all mistaken you owe them an explanation if they ask for one. Now it's possible that, on further reflection, you realize that you don't know exactly what you meant by that. Maybe, just maybe, you were just rying to get at Jim. I don't mean to put words in your mouth. Maybe it's not that at all. But I DO have to wonder myself, what WERE you talking about? Judex, I don't think Jim is trying to torture you or anything (despite how much it might seem so right now). He just really feels that everyone here should be bound by the same rules of accountability. I guess what I'm saying, in a roundabout way, is that you could clear this up so easily by just for once and for all loking back at the moment, looking at the words that he (obnoxiously) keeps posting and ask yourself if you really meant something by them. If so, why nbot tell him? If not, why not admit that? Judex, this IS not a Jim cult. I think you're long past thinking that it ever could be (I truly have a hard time udnerstanding how you might ahve ever seriously thought so). Still, Jim, like everyone here, has a right to expect accountability from people he talsk to here. We can't make premies respect that obligation. They don't come here, for the most part, in the same spirit of honesty and self-examination. But we ex's, you and I and even Jim, have earned that for ourselves. I'm not sure that Jim will keep pestering you on this. I've got a feeling that he thinks he's pretty well said all he thinks he's got to say on the subject. But I really thnik it would be neat if you guys could be friends and, in this case, I do think that requires you honestly dealing with a few ords you once said. Well, forgive me for intruding if it puts you out. I hope you receive this in the spirit intended. Love Katie' I mean, wouldn't that be easier than all this speculation? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:14:01 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: JIM! Please! Message: Dear Jim - Why don't YOU just say it to Judex? E-mail her or something? Why write something for ME to say to her? This is LITERALLY putting words in my mouth - many of which I would not say in real life. Why don't you just change all the 'Jim's to 'I' or 'me', and send it to her? I think it's an OK letter - I just didn't write it! Katie P.S. I am falling asleep here, so good night. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 19:29:02 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Yeah, right, Jim Message: Dear Jim, I posted to you some time ago and didn't expressly ask you to answer know that then you wouldn't, and you didn't. With me, Jim you always do that, just drop it. The only difference is I LET IT GO! Why can't you let this go. You disregard me every time you do that to me, ignore a post I write to you but I don't hound you and track you down relentlessly, not even a glimmer. Why don't you leave this or go look up my last post to you and get back to me on THAT! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 22:28:41 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Big diff, Robyn Message: Robyn, I'm not sure what you're point is here. That I ignore you or something? Robyn, I try to answer anything you ask me. As for just commenting back and forth, well sometimes the spirit moves me and some times it doesn't. Which post are you talking about? Let me go look for it... No, I couldn't find it. Maybe you can direct me there or something. But, really, you're missing the whole point. If you'd said anything like this to me: If you really wanted some action from Maharaji you would be doing more than just writing letters to Linda Gross. The way you are fooling yourself that what you are saying is legitimate is obvious in so many ways Jim. I'd 'hound' you too. And how about you? What would you do if I said 'Robyn if you really wanted x you'd be doing more than just y. The way you are fooling yourself that what you are saying is legitimate is obvious in so many ways, Robyn'? I'll tell you what you'd do. You'd ask me what the hell I was talking about. Then if I said, 'hey, its a free country, you can't take my words from me, blah blah blah', you'd scratch your head and go 'what? I'm just asking you, what the hell you meant by that'. Then, if I said, 'look, just drop it okay?' you'd probably say 'sure, Jim, whatever'. But you would NOT feel good about it and you would NOT want anything further to do with me. Face it, everytime we spoke from that point on you'd be bothered by the fact that I'd once lashed out at you, never explained myself, never apologized. If 'forgetting' things was as easy as all that, no one would apologize for anything. We'd all just wait 'til tomorrow on everything. People aren't like that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:07:25 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net To: Jim Subject: Big diff, Robyn Message: I read the letter from Linda Gross. It appears you accomplished a response, a polite end of conversation from her. Perhaps you see that as a gain. I would feel I had wasted my time which was quite predictable. There was a zero impact upon Gumaraji which is what Judex correctly indicated and correctly anticipated; the obvious expectation was realized. Nothing hard to understand. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:29:19 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Stephen Harris Subject: Really? Message: Stephen, As I even told Linda, my aim was one or the other. Either to get a real response (unlikely) or to force the head of EV to say that even she can't get him to communicate. Now, when some premie posts asking why we don't just ask M ourselves this or that, I feel better able to say, 'you've got be kidding'. Sorry, you don't appreciate that. Anyway, I'm not saying that talking/writing Linda was such a great idea. But Judex said it sucked and for that I deserve an explanation. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |