Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 17 | |
From: Jul 9, 1998 |
To: Jul 16, 1998 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
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Richard -:- Why Blame Maharaji ??? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 07:00:56 (EDT) __Mel Bourne -:- Why Blame Maharaji ??? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 07:18:27 (EDT) ____TD -:- Why Blame Maharaji ??? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 07:32:44 (EDT) ____canoga -:- God gave us class action suits -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:04:12 (EDT) ______Judex -:- God gave us class action suits -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:43:52 (EDT) ____Richard -:- Why Blame Maharaji ??? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 09:15:08 (EDT) ______Rick -:- Why Blame Maharaji ??? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:17:47 (EDT) ____Gerry -:- Mel Boring is clueless -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 10:34:12 (EDT) ______Mel Bourne -:- MB is clueless -I'm impressed -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:57:23 (EDT) ________Selena -:- html -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:00:19 (EDT) __________Mel Bourne -:- html -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:06:30 (EDT) ____________Selene -:- html -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:13:11 (EDT) ______________Katie -:- html -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:26:17 (EDT) ______________Gerry -:- html -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:36:26 (EDT) ________________Selena/Selene -:- html -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:47:26 (EDT) ____________Rick -:- html -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:25:27 (EDT) ______________Mel Bourne -:- html -anger- swearing -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:41:57 (EDT) ________________Rick -:- html -anger- swearing -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 13:03:54 (EDT) __________________Judex -:- html -anger- swearing -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 22:56:27 (EDT) ________________Gerry -:- html -anger- swearing -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 13:07:21 (EDT) __________________Rick -:- html -anger- swearing -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 13:15:05 (EDT) ____________________Gerry -:- Mel disses Rick--again -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 14:16:25 (EDT) ______________________Rick -:- Mel disses Rick--again -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 14:20:07 (EDT) ________________________Robyn -:- Mel disses Rick--again -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 16:01:26 (EDT) ________________Gail -:- The Lord Swears -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 14:11:50 (EDT) __________________Judex -:- The Lord Swears - to Gail -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 23:05:43 (EDT) ____Katie -:- I beg to differ -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 10:55:21 (EDT) ______Mel Bourne -:- I beg to differ -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:43:35 (EDT) ________Katie -:- I beg to differ -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:21:07 (EDT) __________Mel Bourne -:- I beg to differ -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:58:24 (EDT) ________Rick -:- I beg to differ -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:39:59 (EDT) ________Gail -:- Hey, Mel, when did you ... -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 14:02:43 (EDT) __________Carol -:- Hey, Mel, when did you ... -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 21:10:19 (EDT) ____________Gerry -:- Mel boring -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 12:25:13 (EDT) __Judex -:- Why Blame Maharaji ??? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:39:17 (EDT) ____Richard -:- Why Blame Maharaji ??? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 09:40:04 (EDT) ______Judex -:- Why Blame ..to Richard -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 23:19:43 (EDT) ________Richard -:- Why Blame ..to Judex -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 07:50:37 (EDT) ____Gerry -:- Why Blame Maharaji ??? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 10:20:15 (EDT) ____Rick -:- Why Blame Maharaji ??? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:47:00 (EDT) ______Judex -:- to Rick -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 23:22:55 (EDT) ________Rick -:- to Rick -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 00:17:04 (EDT) __________Judex -:- to Rick -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 00:24:56 (EDT) TD -:- Ram Dass' Maharaji -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 06:34:13 (EDT) __Bobby -:- Ram Dass' Maharaji -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:44:12 (EDT) ____TD -:- Ram Dass' Maharaji -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 19:36:53 (EDT) __Carol -:- Ram Dass' Maharaji -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 21:15:44 (EDT) ____TD -:- Ram Dass' Maharaji -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 21:43:52 (EDT) canoga -:- internet advice on US vs THEM -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 05:31:26 (EDT) __Brian -:- internet advice on US vs THEM -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 07:56:54 (EDT) ____canoga -:- good lord -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:19:19 (EDT) ______canoga -:- addenendum- -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:38:48 (EDT) ______Brian -:- good lord -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:39:39 (EDT) ______Katie -:- lawsuits -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:43:15 (EDT) __JW -:- internet advice on US vs THEM -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 13:26:43 (EDT) ____Jim -:- Canoga and JW -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 14:24:16 (EDT) ______JW -:- Legal Claims -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 15:38:25 (EDT) ______canoga -:- Jim and JW- -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 17:22:51 (EDT) ________JW -:- Jim and JW- -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 00:56:08 (EDT) Judex -:- Story time - Hallo RT! -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 05:17:55 (EDT) __Judex -:- Story time Part 2 - Hallo RT! -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 06:23:31 (EDT) ____Judex -:- Story time Part 3 - Hallo RT! -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 06:32:03 (EDT) ______Judex -:- Story time Part 4 (final) -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 06:47:44 (EDT) ________RT -:- Your Story! -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 17:43:47 (EDT) __________Judex -:- to RT -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 23:45:58 (EDT) ____________Judex -:- to RT (not?) - Fridge Material -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 00:09:38 (EDT) ______________Katie -:- I think RT can draw -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 00:49:17 (EDT) ________________Judex -:- I think RT can draw - to Katie -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 08:05:11 (EDT) ____________RT -:- art from rt? -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 09:29:44 (EDT) ______________Ms. K -:- rt b'day? -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 14:03:22 (EDT) ______________Judex -:- Happy Birthday RT! -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 16:33:26 (EDT) ________________RTEASED -:- thanks a day early. -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 18:25:18 (EDT) __________________Judex -:- thanks a day early. -:- Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 01:48:46 (EDT) ________carol -:- Great work,Judex! nt -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 21:31:29 (EDT) ______TD -:- You're a natural... -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 06:54:44 (EDT) ________Judex -:- You're a natural... -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 07:06:05 (EDT) __________Gail -:- You're a natural... -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 14:07:45 (EDT) Jim -:- Red Heart bleeds fake blood -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 02:33:45 (EDT) __canoga park -:- Red Heart bleeds fake blood??? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 03:17:48 (EDT) __red heart -:- Red Heart is not bleeding -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 09:35:28 (EDT) ____Richard -:- Red Heart is not LOOKING... -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 10:13:00 (EDT) ______red heart -:- you see what you want to see -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 10:58:36 (EDT) ________Richard -:- you see what you want to see -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:23:40 (EDT) __________Selene -:- you see what you want to see -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:11:01 (EDT) ____Jim -:- You dunce -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 13:14:29 (EDT) ______tom -:- You dunce -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 00:16:55 (EDT) ________JW -:- SO -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 00:40:56 (EDT) __________canoga -:- I staaaaaaand corrected! -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 02:18:42 (EDT) Brian -:- Deleted posts, Fixed links -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 23:18:13 (EDT) __Katie -:- To Andrew -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 00:45:25 (EDT) ____Brian -:- To Andrew -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 07:46:53 (EDT) ______Katie -:- Deletions -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:16:29 (EDT) ____bftb -:- To Andrew -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 13:11:52 (EDT) ______Katie -:- Andrew -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 13:34:53 (EDT) __Judex -:- to Brian in his bare feet -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:28:30 (EDT) ____Brian -:- to Brian in his bare feet -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 09:02:57 (EDT) RT -:- The Un-Master Card: use chit. -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 21:22:10 (EDT) __David de Brie -:- The Un-Master Card: use chit. -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 22:49:24 (EDT) ____Gail -:- The Un-Master Card: use chit. -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 00:21:18 (EDT) __Katie -:- The Un-Master Card: use chit. -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 00:48:48 (EDT) __Judex -:- The Un-Master Card: use chit. -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 02:03:52 (EDT) __TD -:- What a card sharp! -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 06:07:23 (EDT) ____Katie -:- International card carriers -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:16:47 (EDT) ____RT -:- Card sharp: Pun to nothing. -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 18:36:50 (EDT) __Selena -:- The Un-Master Card: use chit. -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:20:04 (EDT) ____RT -:- The Ex-Master Card: Good Chit! -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 18:18:08 (EDT) ______TD -:- The Ex-Master Card: Good Chit! -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 19:07:56 (EDT) ________Gail -:- The Ex-Master Card: Good Chit! -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 01:40:01 (EDT) Canpga -:- peeep! -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 19:53:01 (EDT) __Runamok -:- peeep! -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 23:32:38 (EDT) ____canoga -:- peeep! -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 03:31:45 (EDT) ______runamok -:- peeep! -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 04:37:49 (EDT) ____Mel Bourne -:- peeep! -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 06:36:59 (EDT) ______Gerry -:- hey stupes -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 10:52:20 (EDT) ______runamok -:- Just a Mel Bourne Moment -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:23:13 (EDT) ________canoga -:- a word -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 18:33:56 (EDT) __________Runamok -:- a word -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 19:22:08 (EDT) ____________canoga -:- a nother word -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 20:48:17 (EDT) ______________runamok -:- in other word -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 23:33:37 (EDT) Gail -:- THE LAND -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:06:27 (EDT) __Gail -:- WANNA BUY A PICTURE -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:09:20 (EDT) __JW -:- THE LAND -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 18:52:12 (EDT) ____Selena -:- THE LAND -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 19:14:01 (EDT) ______Gail -:- Premie inventors -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 19:51:56 (EDT) ________Rick -:- Premie inventors -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 20:14:01 (EDT) ________JW -:- Premie inventors -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 20:16:58 (EDT) ______Sir Brie -:- Haharaji's inventions -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 22:19:56 (EDT) ________Selene -:- Haharaji's re-inventions -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 22:45:03 (EDT) __________Rick -:- Haharaji's re-inventions -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 23:20:28 (EDT) ____________Katie -:- Selene's boots -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 01:00:30 (EDT) __TD -:- THE LAND & COWS -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 20:05:29 (EDT) ____Gerry -:- THE LAND & COWS -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 20:16:51 (EDT) ______x -:- THE LAND -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 20:32:04 (EDT) ________Selen(?) -:- a good topic BUT.. -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 01:35:44 (EDT) __________Jim -:- You really want to know? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 02:20:09 (EDT) ____________Selena -:- You really want to know? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:40:45 (EDT) ______________Katie -:- You really want to know? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:52:19 (EDT) ________________Selene -:- You really want to know? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:57:40 (EDT) __________________Katie -:- You really want to know? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:36:13 (EDT) ____________________Katie -:- M's occupation -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:43:06 (EDT) ____________________Selene/Selena -:- You really want to know? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 14:03:08 (EDT) ______________________Gail -:- You really want to know? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 14:56:22 (EDT) ________________________JW -:- You really want to know? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 19:31:08 (EDT) ________________________Katie -:- Gail, thanks! -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 13:52:03 (EDT) __________________________Selena -:- Gail, thanks again from me! -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 14:28:47 (EDT) ________________________jethro -:- You really want to know? -:- Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 02:44:39 (EDT) __Judex -:- THE LAND -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 02:07:01 (EDT) Judex -:- Full Circle -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 16:48:09 (EDT) __Bobby -:- Full Circle -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:01:43 (EDT) ____Jim -:- Going nowhere -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:05:53 (EDT) ____Carol -:- Full Circle -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 03:56:31 (EDT) ______Judex -:- to Carol -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 07:16:48 (EDT) ______Katie -:- To Carol -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:32:23 (EDT) ______Bobby -:- Full Circle -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:04:13 (EDT) ________Carol -:- Full Circle -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 21:59:43 (EDT) __________Katie -:- Thx Carol, and plug for book -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 23:17:09 (EDT) __Bobby -:- Another Rumi quote -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:06:42 (EDT) ____Jim -:- Another Rumi quote -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:35:44 (EDT) ______Bobby -:- Another Rumi quote -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:44:47 (EDT) ________Jim -:- No, it's not like that -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 18:18:28 (EDT) ____Judex -:- to Bobby -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 01:52:29 (EDT) ______Jim -:- to Bobby -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 02:39:09 (EDT) __Scott T. -:- Full Circle -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 23:41:37 (EDT) ____Judex -:- Full Circle -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 01:57:00 (EDT) ____TD -:- Full Circle -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 07:04:31 (EDT) ____Bobby -:- Full Circle -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:08:09 (EDT) |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 07:00:56 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Why Blame Maharaji ??? Message: Dear All, If you have a grudge against a Mahatma, sue the Mahatma! If you were badly treated by an Ashram secretary, sue the secretary! If you were abused by security, sue the security! If you failed to get an experience from the knowledge, sue yourself (because it's your fault right). If you spent several/many years screwing up your life and those of anyone else around you, put all your savings/trust funds/wages at the bogus feet, severed all true relationships at His whim and had to start all over again some 25 years down the line.... ....then get up off your arse, quit bellyaching and put it all down to experience and your own stupidity. Or alternatively, spend half of the rest of your life (and savings) gathering all the detailed evidence, send it with a nice note to Maharaji and then spend the remaining half of the rest of your life waiting for an answer. Oh and BTW, fuck the others who are still in the process, including the poor sods who have yet to be snared. Is this your cunning plan MB? Well I say bollocks to that and here's why! Because Maharaji exists at the top of a very fine pyramid and the very presence of this pyramid is enough to convince Maharaji (and the innocent ones) that he is indeed what he says he is. So long as Maharaji has one single devotee left to him, he will still carry on. So the pyramid has to go! But how? Not by picking off the individual building blocks, that takes too long and the blocks get swiftly replaced. We have all seen worn out EV icons be magically replaced by shiny new ones. Ambition and greed are very helpful to Maharaji. We have to destroy the glue that binds the pyramid together and that is Maharaji's personal credibility as a Guru/Perfect Master/Lord/Teacher whatever. This rests on three things; The unique nature of his meditation techniques (not true) The association of Maharaji with any internal meditation experience/the causal relationship (purest bullshit fantasy) The implication of his Divinity (previously stated, currently denied but always implied) We attempt all this through open and honest debate on the forum. No one is forced to come here, nobody is coerced, nobody is threatened with sanction if they don't agree. We simply talk, and with this remarkably straight forward method we appear to have gained a valid and powerful concensus. Don't forget, MB, that many of us here were the driving force behind propagation in the old days, who better to unravel the whole thing. Do you think we can't? And do you think that, after rebuilding every aspect of our lives from scratch, we are concerned about a little old legal threat from the most unreliable witness in legal history. Get real! And as for threats of closing web-sites (ho-fucking-ho), have you had a look around the net recently? Do you know anything about the set-up? Hacking, Phreaking, Mirror Sites. Puhleeeeaaase! The internet is Maharaji's worst nightmare, free-speech on a stick. Don't worry about our position MB, but think about your own by all means. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 07:18:27 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Richard Subject: Why Blame Maharaji ??? Message: 'Or alternatively, spend half of the rest of your life (and savings) gathering all the detailed evidence, send it with a nice note to Maharaji and then spend the remaining half of the rest of your life waiting for an answer.' No Richard, I am not suggesting that you just send a nice note to M and then wait. What I am suggesting is that the whining stops (or maybe even continues if you want), but that something a bit more tangible happens ie Legal action. Now this takes work, and hard work, but the results will be far more rewarding than just whining in front of an audience of 10 million (?) people. Where's your credibilty (?), where's your guts (?), get up and prove to this audience that you are real and not just a bunch of self pitying has beens. If M continues to allow these abuses to continue, who is to blame YOU ARE, because you didn't take action to stop it! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 07:32:44 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Why Blame Maharaji ??? Message: If M continues to allow these abuses to continue, who is to blame I'd say his own legal team, not us! Haven't they put a case together yet to defend his name? Until that happens, it's doubtful the discussion on this site will stop! TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:04:12 (EDT)
From: canoga Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: God gave us class action suits Message: Access Internet Greenpeace site. Mclibel case exposed Macdonalds. Some very poor people on welfare developed a case and SUED Mcdonalds.Macdonalds won the case. BUT had to pay everybodys legal fees. Macdonalds is freaking out - lots and lots of bad publicity. Sales down dramatically- stopped expanding in the states, towns outlawing Macdonalds. Check the stock exchange for the past year. The greenpeace site also organizes Boycott of Multinationals. It isnt that far of a strech to the cult. You lawyer types should be able to find a nice 'Class Action Suits for the Complete Idiot' handbook Note: I am not talking about sexual abuse cases. I am talking about emotional manipulation and brainwashing for a start. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:43:52 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: canoga Subject: God gave us class action suits Message: Just to confuse things I also agree with you canoga as well as wondering how far this should be taken. It would be good to establish ground rules for cults. That is a very important issue - the kind of rights you have raised. the thing about establishing rights too is that once you set a standard, all have to follow, presumably. So the guru bashing would have to stop. But you're right. IT's like child sexual abuse. there are many important issues in the world which are not being addressed. Perhaps it is time to take some action which could benefit many people. Whether the cult comes up clean or dirty, at least it would be examined under the law, using their powers and faciltities. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 09:15:08 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Why Blame Maharaji ??? Message: I suppose it might be reasonable for someone who hides behind a pseudynom to accuse others (who do not) of whining and of lacking credibility and guts, that is not for me to say. What I can say is that you, MB, are confusing the legal process with justice (natural or otherwise). Legal redress may be desirable, justice (in the form of preventing further damage to others) certainly is. However, to suggest that the pursuit of justice through legal channels by a few under resourced individuals living in different countries is merely a question of hard work, is not just mind-numbingly stupid, it is so stupid that it raises (again) the question of your motive in suggesting it. In fact your whole tactic of raising the legal spectre in the first place creaks under the weight of its own obviousness. 'Go away you creeps, here, chase this legal bone why dontcha.' Just my impression MB, not a REAL quote. And finally we come to the real goody, the revelation of where you are truly at oh Convoluted One. If/When the shit finally hits the divine fan, whose fault will it be, who is to blame? YOU ARE, because you didn't take action to stop it! Your words, MB, repeating what we here have heard countless times before. The institutionalised belief that all bad things are the fault of the followers, past and present. YOU, who have sat on your fucking thumb for, how long?, have the unmitigated gall to show such disrepect to all the people here by suggesting that, unless we do as you have, so kindly, directed, will be to BLAME. Go fuck yourself MB. Or better still, reply quickly so we can see some more of your bullshit logic. no fucking regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:17:47 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Richard Subject: Why Blame Maharaji ??? Message: Beautiful letter, Richard. Might I add that Mel Bourne not only sits on his thumb, but spins at 700 revolutions per second. Say, how many children is it alleged that Maharaji's assistant, Jagdeo, molested? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 10:34:12 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Mel Boring is clueless Message: MB, After reading your post, I'm reduced to swearing and name calling, so Fuck you, you disgusting puke!Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:57:23 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Gerry Subject: MB is clueless -I'm impressed Message: Do you feel good now, after having got that lot off your chest? By the way..... I am really impressed by by the size of the font, do you set it up in 'word' or what? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:00:19 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: html Message: There are a zillion documents and books on how to use html codes. You can also reveal page source from the View menu on Netscape or the equivilant menu on Explorer. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:06:30 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Selena Subject: html Message: Thanks Selena, I will try it when I feel as angry as Gerry Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:13:11 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: html Message: I don't know maybe it's because I've worked with computing forever but those kinds of mark ups on posts don't really do all that much to add to the content, - my opinion only. No offense Gerry. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:26:17 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Selene Subject: html Message: Also, Brian changes all the font sizes and colors back to 'normal' when archiving, so the big fonts are only useful for quite temporary expressions. (Maybe that's good.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:36:26 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Selene Subject: html Message: Ummm....what content was that, Selena? (My vote goes to Selena, BTW) Hey html is cheap thrills to a computer neophyte like myself. and I'm...... Highly Offended!not Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:47:26 (EDT)
From: Selena/Selene Email: None To: Gerry Subject: html Message: Just meant any content. Not yours in particular. I hope Brian has an automated way to save this stuff without the codes though. That would be a lot of work to manually remove them but I am sure he has that covered. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:25:27 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: html Message: No, Mel Boring, when you feel as angry as Gerry, it would unproductive to whine. What you need to do is go through the proper channels with this thing. If you follow the link titled 'problems' at the main page for this site, it will take you to a site with an address published, where you can send a letter. You will receive a letter in response with the URL to a web site, where you can send an email. You'll be emailed in response with a phone number to call and register a complaint. It's really an answering machine, but someone will call you back. Please don't follow Gerry's lead and be irresponsible by just saying what you mean. In fact, if YOU have a fucking problem with how things are being done around here, why don't YOU fucking file a lawsuit, you stupid shit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:41:57 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Rick Subject: html -anger- swearing Message: 'why don't YOU fucking file a lawsuit, you stupid shit' I guess 10million (?) readers (according to Brian) would be really impressed by your verbal obscenities. At least I am able to convey my anger in civil language. You do a great disservice to the Forum by your obsenity no matter how much you delude yourself that such obscenity is needed. What do you do at home, beat your wif and kids when you can't articulate your frustration. Why don't you grow up and debate matters without verbal abuse, it does not initimdate me in the slightest! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 13:03:54 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: html -anger- swearing Message: Mel, I'm not trying to intimidate you, you brainless Asswipe. I'm expressing myself. Emotional expression is healthy, it isn't destructive and it isn't violent. Getting angry is what humans do to express anger. They don't talk like a textbook to express anger unless they've been emotionally repressed - they don't turn into zombies like premies and become passive-aggressive idiots. Mel said: What do you do at home, beat your wif and kids when you can't articulate your frustration. Why don't you grow up and debate matters without verbal abuse, it does not initimdate me in the slightest! You really are a little dense. I am articulating my frustration. Growing up isn't a matter of adopting useless decorum to hide how you feel. And about all the readers who might be put off by real expression: I'm not expressing myself to impress anyone. Is THAT what you're doing? Well, no surprise to me... another telling sign of what you're really doing here. No, Mel, I'm here to express myself; something the plastic guru Maharaji taught me to be too afraid to do. I'm confident enough that others who think for themselves enough to express themselves, or at least are trying to, won't have any anal-retentive problems with a few good old-fashioned curse words. Besides, Mel, you really are an asshole. How do you want me to say it? How do you say it? Or are you above that? Oooooooh! I'm so impressed. A programmed zombie android premie. What a fucking surprise. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 22:56:27 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Rick and Mel Bourne Subject: html -anger- swearing Message: Dear Mel Bourne First you express your anger in a way that is harmless others. Then you make love to your wife and nurture your kids. Your way, you express a few well-defined cynicisms, down a few martinis and get a stress headache in the morning. Your wife and kids don't know who you are. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 13:07:21 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Rick Subject: html -anger- swearing Message: Yeah Rick, grow up you wif beater! ( I prefer Jif myself, but some say you can't beat Wif) At least I am able to convey my anger in civil language. Now that's what I call pissed off! This guy must be wery, wery angwee. So grow up, Rick. If I can stop sucking my thumb, you can, too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 13:15:05 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Gerry Subject: html -anger- swearing Message: Gerry, You couldn't stop sucking your thumb if your life depended on it. Besides, you used to be an asshole premie yourself. It's clear from your behavior that many well-meaning souls were scared off from BM, during your tenure. So how about taking it easy on Mel and others, who are having hard time right now? Or is this all about Gerry's little self-indulgent tantrum? Everything's always about Gerry. Gerry, Gerry, Gerry. Yeah, grow up. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 14:16:25 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Rick Subject: Mel disses Rick--again Message: Mel said ''blame' is primarily a personal reaction to people like Richard, Gerry, Jim, etc, who have heaped obscenities and verbal abuse on me, See Rick, you didn't even get honorable mention. Now go sit in the corner if you are going to continue sucking your thumb, and don't even think about beating your wif, or you'll go blind and grow hair on your palms. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 14:20:07 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Mel disses Rick--again Message: That got me laughing, Gerry. See the whole reason I made a big fuss today, is that Melly left me out. I poured all that negative energy into him the other day, and he just ignores me. Isn't that just his way? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 16:01:26 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Rick Subject: Mel disses Rick--again Message: Dear Rick and Gerry, You guys are SO cute. I miss you all you know! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 14:11:50 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: The Lord Swears Message: According to Anne Johnston last year, MJ said he want the lawyers who were working on her immigration papers to stop 'FUCKING AROUND.' He has also made frequent references in public to the fact that he does, indeed, SWEAR. He is probably leaning over your shoulder saying, 'THOSE FUCKING BASTARDS. AFTER ALL I'VE DONE FOR THEM,' right now. Am I right? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 23:05:43 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Gail Subject: The Lord Swears - to Gail Message: Yes Gail he is the one who told the dirty story at Amaroo. shocked? yes! laughing? a little! The lord works in mysterious ways! (It was the joke about the bear. I told it already before. Don't know if it bears repeating) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 10:55:21 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: I beg to differ Message: Dear Mel - you wrote: If M continues to allow these abuses to continue, who is to blame YOU ARE, because you didn't take action to stop it! This doesn't make sense to me. For one thing, if M is allowing these abuses to happen, then obviously he's to blame, along with the perpetrators. But questions of blame aside, I happen to feel that the people who have created and participate in this web site and forum ARE taking action to stop these abuses. It may not be the kind of action you would like to see happen, but it IS action. As I said below in my post on 'lawsuits', I have been through one lawsuit where we were attempting to bring someone to justice for some abuses, and to prevent these abuses from happening again. We actually won the lawsuit, but people got dragged through the mud in the process, and I am not sure the end results were better than not suing at all would have been. It's possible that we prevented further abuses by the people we sued, but I think that they just moved on and did the same thing elsewhere. Also, some members of my family, who brought the case, were negatively affected by the whole experience, and I am not sure if they will ever recover. I am not interested in 'bringing Maharaji down'. I AM interested in providing support for people who are unhappy with Maharaji and his organization, and I feel that this forum is the best way to do it. Although I am not a lawyer, I don't think that most of the people have legitimate grounds for a lawsuit. And based on my personal experience, I don't think that lawsuits, even when won, necessarily result in healing for the person bringing the suit, or in protection against the same harm happening to others. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:43:35 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Katie Subject: I beg to differ Message: Katie I do not disagree with your comments and would add that my comment about 'blame' is primarily a personal reaction to people like Richard , Gerry , Jim, etc, who have heaped obscenities and verbal abuse on me, prejudging my motives and 'who' I am working for etc,etc. (even 'translating' for me). I can just imagine what they might have been like to live with in an ashram, if becoming an ex has improved their sensitivity, I shudder to think what they were like. Actually, its been quite an experience contributing here, it's one thing to veiw from the sidelines and completely another to join the fray and get smashed around a bit, but I wish people weren't so suspicious of a different view point. In a way exs are just like premies, they have very rigid preconceptions of how things should or shouldn't be, there is an incredible lack of warmth in premie communities generally, and this is because the focus is aimed solely towards M , and excludes other people who share this world around them and it is apparent to me a lot of exs suffer from this lack also. Its lucky I can just turn off my computer when I want and get on with my life........ Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:21:07 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Mel Bourne Subject: I beg to differ Message: Dear Mel, I agree that you've been the target of abuse on the site. I am sure though, that you probably know that 'it's your own fault' is just a red flag to exes, since it was the stock answer for many of the problems they experienced as premies. You wrote: In a way exs are just like premies, they have very rigid preconceptions of how things should or shouldn't be, there is an incredible lack of warmth in premie communities generally, and this is because the focus is aimed solely towards M , and excludes other people who share this world around them and it is apparent to me a lot of exs suffer from this lack also. I haven't found this to be true, in general (although I am SURE that you will find some people who will agree with you in particular.) I think one thing that would help is talking about something else besides lawsuits and libel and the like. In my opinion, those point has been made, and if people would like to pursue those thoughts or take heed they probably already have. I do think you might experience more warmth and understanding on the site if you would talk a little bit more about yourself, your own experiences and so forth. I find it easier to understand and relate to people when they do this. Regards from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:58:24 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Katie Subject: I beg to differ Message: Yes, good stuff, thanks again Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:39:59 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: I beg to differ Message: Warmth is an interesting subject, Mel. When someone feels warmth it comes out. Some people are more expressive than others, but even when it isn't said outright, it still comes across. The unique thing about maharaji's cult is that no one is allowed to get openly angry. It's so distasteful, especially when you have that beautiful gift of knowledge (you know, Mel, the invisible gift that everyone spends years looking for). Eventually, premies are really pissed because they put their lives into this fraudulant plastic Guru and then come up empty. Now take me, for instance. When I read your above post, what I hear is 'Fuck You'. The way you wrote that letter is how people in maharaji's cult say 'Fuck You'. Around here, we don't pretend as much. So when someone wants to tell you 'Fuck You', you'll probably hear it. It's so much simpler - and much more honest and direct. Some people may just say 'I'm angry with you' or 'That really bothers me', but you'll get the jist of their message; no messy code to decipher. So Mel, you programmed little Weasel, Fuck You Too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 14:02:43 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: Mel Bourne Subject: Hey, Mel, when did you ... Message: jump on this train? Back in '74 I was subjected to WHO IS GURU MAHARAJ JI about 15 times. In this film, in case you haven't seen it, MJ is transformed into a swan. Naked cartoon figures representing humans are depicted as: Falling in love--BUT THE LOVE DOESN'T LAST Loving nature--BUT WE CAN'T MERGE WITH IT Enjoying a career--BUT THERE IS NO REAL SATISFACTION FROM IT, and so on. We have seen through the SATGURU, but what about those deep-rooted beliefs he planted in us for the last quarter century. How can we rid ourselves of these CONCEPTS he has given us, so that we might enjoy whatever amount of time we have left? THIS MADNESS MUST STOP. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 21:10:19 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Gail Subject: Hey, Mel, when did you ... Message: Thanks for the memory of that film. I've forgotten many things so I'm not very good at contributing much info here. Sometimes things come back, 'though. I agree about a need to cleanse our minds of those concepts. The joke is that premies, no matter how deovoted or how meditative, carry plenty of concepts and 'mind'. We are meant IMO to refine and use our minds not eliminate them. By the Way, I don't see why some of you are being so judgmental and harsh to Mel Bourne. Did I miss something? I am a bit behind in reading here. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 12:25:13 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Carol Subject: Mel boring Message: Hi Carol, About melbourne: he's a particularly sneaky and insidious BM apologist whose main tactics include trying to intimidate people into abandoning the forum though fear of lawsuits and also to distract from the real issues while putting his pathetic self (and I do feel some sympathy for the guy--he's a real loser, who might not be so bad if he would snap out of it) by putting himself in the limelight while having zero to contribute. He's a classic ''shit-stirer'' and seems to be a carrier of the ''emotional plague'' so clearly delineated by W Reich in the fifties. But that's another story... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:39:17 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Richard Subject: Why Blame Maharaji ??? Message: Dear Richard sweetheart darling I think I got the gist of your post but it's quite late here - I start work at the crack of dawn - that's what we Aussies say - must come from those days of 'cracking the old stock whip'. Anyways brother, I like what you has to say, see, but both sides of the question seem legitimate in your post. So my opinion here is the question - do we have the power to dismantly M's organization. Je ne crois pas. (don't think so). Usually unless you want full out war, I feel that something liek this may just die in the bum (ie fall apart) of its own accord. To everything there is a season and a time for every purpose under heaven. M will probably change his ways due to what we are doing here for ourselves - as a by-product we will help others - he will have to get more honest. He is already more accountable because of us, IMO, unless he wants to lose more premies due to plain old unanswered questions. Perhaps this is enough? Or shall we crucify him as well (sorry but couldn't help it). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 09:40:04 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Judex Subject: Why Blame Maharaji ??? Message: Dear Judex, any lessening of Maharaji's insane campaign, to reap rich rewards from his bogus spirituality, have always come about as a result of people calling him to account for his actions. Just as we do here. Anyone doubting that we hurt him, need only refer to his recent statements regarding his enemies on the net. MB,s tactic is typical of the divide and conquer strategy employed by Maharaji for so long. Isolate each complaint, make them take each grievance through a long and arduous process, ensure that it costs them more than they can afford then wait for them to go away. Your willingness to compromise is a tribute to your true beauty Judex and your kind words are a salve to any wound. But I have seen MB's tactics before, indeed I have used them myself and I cannot believe that they are anything but a cynical attempt to frighten people away from saying freely what they know to be true. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 23:19:43 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Richard Subject: Why Blame ..to Richard Message: Dear Richard My problem is I had to ask myself the question: If I was given or offered the role of Master with all that power (in whatever context eg: say I won the lottery or became chief executive officer of a corporation etc) What would I do? Am I pure of such desires? Maybe I too would want a huge mansion and a jet and a swimming pool. And heart-shaped rooms and air conditioning and an ocean cruiser. I just don't know. Do you? I know it's not the whole point but it's worth asking that question of oneself I do think just for an experiment. Take out the master bit perhaps; just imagine your version of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 07:50:37 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Judex Subject: Why Blame ..to Judex Message: Dear sweet reasonable Judex, my problem is honesty. Not necessarily the nit-picky 24 hours-a-day, in every detail type honesty but a fundamental benchmark type thing. (I'm not being particularly eloquent today) If I sell something, I like it to be worth what I am asking for it. If I buy something, I expect it to do what I have been told that it will do. It cuts both ways. Some time ago, maybe 12 years or so, I was working as a consultant to small and medium sized companies. The way that most consultancies charge is based on the perceived value principal. i.e. the more you charge, the more value the client will place on your advice. And, of course, vice versa. I found that I was extremely uncomfortable with this idea and, after a short period earning stupid sums of money (£2,500 per week) I bailed out. Maybe this points to my insecurity (many have said this) or maybe it's a comment on a lack of self-esteem (could be) but I cannot believe that we are going to make much progress as a civilisation if we are prepared to trade honesty for expedience. To advise those who have been ripped-off to either go quietly and put it down to experience or seek further rip-off experiences through the legal process (sorry Jim) simply supports the whole notion of a dog-eat-dog world. Furthermore, to advise those people who HAVE found a way to honestly deal with their problems (engage in a web forum) that they themselves are guilty of whining, are gutless (because they don't want to engage in expensive legal masturbation) and incapable of hard work (this is not?) is immature and insensitive at best. At worst it is a highly dubious tactic designed to deflect us from a path which has proved to be fruitful, satisfying and beneficial. As for your suggestion that I try to put myself in Maharaji's position, I couldn't live with the dishonesty, simple. Not agreeing with you this time but thanking you for trying none the less, Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 10:20:15 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Judex Subject: Why Blame Maharaji ??? Message: Judex' I think your whole post stinks but these two quotes are really telling. I would really like to blast you about your lame thinking but these two statements speak for you. M will probably change his ways due to what we are doing here for ourselves Or shall we crucify him as well (sorry but couldn't help it). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:47:00 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Judex Subject: Why Blame Maharaji ??? Message: Hey Judex, I just read Gerry's response and I had to go back and read this: Or shall we crucify him as well (sorry but couldn't help it). What's up with that, Judex? What do you mean? It comes across as though you think maharaji should be left alone and that his cult shouldn't be dismantled. Is this true? Rick Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 23:22:55 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Rick Subject: to Rick Message: The intonation should be ... or shall we CRUCIFY him, as well? I mean perhaps we are doing enough. DOn't you think we are doing enough? Are we getting well? Are others getting well as a result? Is this a kind of snowball? Or should we get out the swords and guns and start a holy war. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 00:17:04 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Judex Subject: to Rick Message: Well, I think we should put banana peels wherever he walks. If we can keep him stumbling like a fool, we might save a few souls. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 00:24:56 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Rick Subject: to Rick Message: Yes Rick, lots of banana peels Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 06:34:13 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Ram Dass' Maharaji Message: Hi Everyone, Tonight I've been at my folks searching through a box of my pre-Maharaji spiritual library and I found Ram Dass book 'Journey of Awakening'. Anyway, as I dusted its cover down and started to flick through it briefly in this here post-meditative stage of my life, I came across the end bit where he talks about his Maharaji, who is known sometimes as Neem Karoli Baba. Were ever any of you old premies ever in touch with Ram's Maharaji, or heard his talk etc, and did our Maharaji (sorry, our Lord of the Universe) ever get pissed that there were other Indian gurus calling themselves the generic term Maharaji while M was staking his claim in the West. And did you guys ever (trying not to be gender specific here in my slang), either publicly or privately, hear M diss any of the other 60/70's gurus who were around at that time? I mean there must have been times when he got a bit peeved that John, Paul, Ringo and George were off with the Maharishi and all he got was George's wife (lovely as she may be). Or did he manage to maintain a 'strictly business' arrangement with the other hip gurus at the time (ie. selling off company assets such as the 707?) I'd be curious to hear some cracker tales from your memory archives... Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:44:12 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: TD Subject: Ram Dass' Maharaji Message: I like Neem Karoli Baba quite a bit. In India, in '71, a contingent of premies went up to visit old Maharaji -- Neem Karoli that is. Some expressed their disappointment at finding just an 'old man in a blanket'. I wish I had gone with them, but by that time I was a bit burned out with India. I love the stories of Neem Karoli Baba. He spent years in a hole in the ground talking to murtis (little images) of Ram and Hanuman. Reminds me of the old premie that got tossed out of the ashram by MataJi. This guy was the original 'Mouni Baba' dude that Gary Girard writes about in the book 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji'. He was an outcast of sorts. His eyes were glowing with bliss. I liked him too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 19:36:53 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Ram Dass' Maharaji Message: Thanks for your reply Bobby. Neem Karoli sounds very sweet actually. When I looked through that book, I thought how nice that Ram Dass can have such lovely simple memories of his guru, not bogged down with all this deprogramming crap we all have to go through. He sounded very sincere and humble. It's funny how appealing a 'man under a blanket' sounds now, in comparison to 'a man in a Gulfstream'! Another good friend of mine (an older hippie - she's in her 60's now, was a later bloomer on the 60/70's scene) tells me such sweet tales about her guru in India too. She said that he never had an interest in coming to the West even though he could have, and there was none of this enforced heirarchy of the Master-Student trip. You came, you spoke, you went. I never saw a copy of 'Who is Guru Maharaji Ji' so I didn't read about the 'Mouni Baba' dude. Wow, he sounded amazing! Thanks again Bobby. Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 21:15:44 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: TD Subject: Ram Dass' Maharaji Message: I didn't hear M diss other Gurus, but I definately heard from Rajaswar that all other teachers were weeds that got in the way of people identifying the true guru: M. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 21:43:52 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Carol Subject: Ram Dass' Maharaji Message: Aaah! No specific names, eh, just botanical parables? Thanks Carol! Cheers, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 05:31:26 (EDT)
From: canoga Email: None To: forum lawyers Subject: internet advice on US vs THEM Message: Ok search thus far went to Stanford University Legal Department Archives. under 'securities class action clearing house.' I have yet to research the MacLibel case its under the Greenpeace Web Site. also heaps of other info. 'night I suggest we sue Elan Vital for emotional manipulation and brainwashing and exploitation and all that good stuff. As for the abuse cases, i'm still trying to grasp that one. Seems like its a separate and specific. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 07:56:54 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: canoga Subject: internet advice on US vs THEM Message: I suggest we sue Elan Vital for emotional manipulation and brainwashing and exploitation and all that good stuff. Canoga, I realize that revenge fantansies are part of sorting out your anger and hurt over your past. I entertain them myself at times about the 'unfairness' I've experienced. It might be something that some of us have to pass through, but it's no place to set up camp. If you really feel that you have money that you want to throw away on court costs and legal fees, you'll find you will gain tremendously by donating it to the local food bank or giving it to an exit counselor so that he/she can do some free counseling to those who've been through something similar. It will probably ease some of your anger and will certainly do far more good than spending your time in law libraries. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:19:19 (EDT)
From: canoga Email: None To: Brian Subject: good lord Message: brian I dont see a problem with dealing with it on a few levels at a time. Within this forum, the skills and savvy and money and time probably exist. What is the problem with using the resources and recourses available to us to hold M accountable. Sure, individual processing goes on but getting organized is ok too. I know that if an issue is a group issue ,then dealing it only as individuals only has a certain amount of effectivenes. The group or mass influence has to confronted. I think the most effective way is to confront it as a group. As I read through this forum, the individuals are getting through their processes. But as members of a whole group there is a fealing of powerlessness. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:38:48 (EDT)
From: canoga Email: None To: brian Subject: addenendum- Message: Are you saying that you would feel that the purpose of the forum is defeated if some collective action takes place? Revenge is a strong word. It is more like having the courage to hold a huge machine accountable for its actions. It is not only about the past, it is about the now. The forum is good, but it can also tread water as a chat room. A public campaign of some sort may reach pre premies that do not have computer access. Not everyone does you know. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:39:39 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: canoga Subject: good lord Message: As I read through this forum, the individuals are getting through their processes. But as members of a whole group there is a fealing of powerlessness. This is bullshit, canoga. You know what you are feeling. Period. Hiding within a 'whole group' may be a useful pretense for a while, but it's not real my friend. You were never actually initiated into the ex-premie membership. You took no vows. You don't work on our communal property in Australia. The real question you face in life is what are YOU going to do. Other than stand up and yell follow me. If you don't have a personal legal foot to stand on that allows you to show the way by initiating a lawsuit on your own, where do you think your 'followers' are going to stand? Do it, or drop it. Stop blowing wind. Are you going to spend your entire life trying to join something greater than what you were born into? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:43:15 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: canoga Subject: lawsuits Message: Hi Canoga - I started participating on this forum to help other people in their 're-entry' from Maharaji's organization. (A premie friend of mine committed suicide, and this catalyzed my desire to do something). I left M in 1977 and I cannot say that my experience with him has left much more personal damage than I would have encountered otherwise (you can read my Journey's entry under 'Katie (Mischa)'. I do know a lot of other people who suffered a lot of damage because of their involvement. I have been involved in one lawsuit (it was a family thing - an effort to bring some people to justice) and I never want to be involved in another one if I can help it. I don't think they are generally an effective means of doing 'justice', although I suppose they can be sometimes- you cite the McDonalds suit and others. Certainly a case against M would be difficult and draining for the participants. I'd prefer to continue working on the level of the forum. I do think the forum DOES help people, even though it may be a slow process. There's a quote by I can't remember who (maybe Judex can help), and which I am probably mangling here: 'He who does good to others must do it in minute particulars'. I really believe this and this is why I choose to participate in the forum to the extent to which I do. (I also have gotten a lot of personal and particular good out of my own participation in the forum - thanks to everyone here). Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 13:26:43 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: canoga Subject: internet advice on US vs THEM Message: canoga, Feel free to research lawsuits all you like, but be aware that you could spend a lot of time on it and end up nowhere. search thus far went to Stanford University Legal Department Archives. under 'securities class action clearing house.' Well, you can forget this, because any claim against BM would not be a securities claim. We may have dedicated our lives to him and given him all our money, but I don't believe anyone bought securities from him. [Oh, god, do you suppose that is one of the current fundrasing strategies? Frightening thought.] The McLibel case was a claim by McDonalds that certain people disparaged the crap McDonalds sells as 'food.' It was under UK law and would have been thrown out in the States under free speech principles in about 10 minutes. So, it would only be relevent if M sued somebody for disparaging him. Which would happen approximately about he same time hell freezes over, for all the reasons already stated. He has more to lose than win in that situation, so it's against his interest to do it. As we know his interest is MONEY and only MONEY. The ashramers and initiators who were kicked out on their asses by him no this intimately. I suggest we sue Elan Vital for emotional manipulation and brainwashing and exploitation and all that good stuff. I don't think Elan Vital manipulated, brainwashed or exploited me, Maharaji did. You could sue him, I mean, you can sue ANYBODY if you want to, but getting a class of people together to do that would be difficult. As Katie said, the facts and injuries differ from person to person. Not to mention the huge cost involved. Remember Maharaji has LOTS of money to defend any suit. I don't mean to discourage you if you believe you personally have legal claims you want to pursue, I thought I would just mention a note of caution. JW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 14:24:16 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Canoga and JW Message: Canoga, I'm a lawyer and my opinion is that there is no viable cause of action against Maharaji. Religious leaders have a lot of protection under the law to fleece their flock. However, I hasten to add that, while I took my degree in California and prqactisec there for a few years, my experience was limited to the fields of legal and medical malpractise and then, at another job, fraud in the Commodities markets. None of this has anything to do with the Maharaji issues, of course. Since then, I spent a little time in Hawaii (took the bar there), then came back to the mainland, passed the Washington bar and then B.C. (Don't ask, it;s a long story.) Anyway, I'm a sole practising criminal lawyer now and that's what I do. So, as you can see, my experience is limited with respect to these here Maharaji issues. JW works at a large law firm and I think he'd agree that his field, civil litigation, isn't on the money either. KK is apparently another criminal lawyer. She's in Australia. I'm really troubled by this question. Let's put it this way, I'm 'pretty sure' there isn't any good legal claim against Maharaji for the generic ex-premie like myself, especially one like me who left years ago. (The statute of limitations on fraud, cause that's what it would be, have to be one, two or maybe, at most, 5 years). On the other hand, I'm not completely satsified that certain people might not have somethging worth pursuing. They are: (shit, I forgot how to do those bullets) -- people who have recently left who can make a clear case that Maharaji misrepresented himself to them. (N.B. NOT that he used to misrepresent himself as when he clearly said he was the Lord in the seventies and eighties. It would have to be recent, the ex would ahve to prove that they relied on the actual misrepresntation, all sorts of stuff). -- people who were sexually abused years ago by either Maharaji or one of his agents (any premie in a position of authority) who, for one reason or another, can make a case that they either seriously buried the experience deep in their subconscious as a survival mechanism and have only recently understood and been able to consider it. (I think the statute of limitations in California is 'tolled' for historic sex assaults until the victim is an adult and has been able to psychologically accept and thus deal with the fact of the incident. I'm NOT sure about this, or if it's true, the number of extra years you get to launch something). Now, what troubles me is the number of successful lawsuits by native Inidans launched against various churches and government age4ncies for historic sex assults in Canada. I'm not sure how they're maintained given the time problem. Is it that the courts accept that the natives didn't realise until very recently that they were wronged such that they have legal recourse? Or is there some general exemption for these kinds of sex-based civil actions? I'm gonna find out. JW, I wonder, do you have anyone at your firm that does this kind of work? I think we owe it to ourselves and these guys to get real, definitive answers on this. On the other hand, some of the assualts reported, while vile, were too small to be worth pursuing. They speak volumes about the perpetrators and the guru who protected them but that's about it. I wouldn't want to try to sue Maharaji for a simple groping by Jagdeo on one occasion. I doubt any lawyer would. Not to mention the complainants. But there are some people who were more seriously abused. Did Maharaji ever use his Lord status to seduce someone? Someone already under his express control? Some who had already promised to surrender the reigns of their life to him in exchange for salvation? And then he fucked them? My understanding is that they're out there. Anyway, I WILL look into this further. Meanwhile, Canoga, if you're really interested why don't you track down a lawyer there who does this kind of work. Ask around. Let your fingers do the walking through the ex-Scientology pages for a reference or two. I agree. We should find out definitively what's what. As I say, I wouldn't be surprised if nothing's ever doable or ultimately done, for all the reasons stated, but we should know for usre. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 15:38:25 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Legal Claims Message: Jim, thanks for your comments. Here's some additional information. I'm 'pretty sure' there isn't any good legal claim against Maharaji for the generic ex-premie like myself,especially one like me who left years ago. (The statute of limitations on fraud, cause that's what it would be, have to be one, two or maybe, at most, 5 years). In California, the statue of limitations for fraud is three years. But the open issue is that the statute runs from the date of discovery, by the agreived party, of facts constituting the fraud. So, technically, a premie could split from BM because knowledge doesn't work for them, but not get information (like on this website) that would lead one to believe actual fraud was involved. So, even if somebody left the cult years ago, that doesn't necessarily knock a fraud claim out of the water. Regarding sexual abuse of a minor, the California limitation is 8 years from the date the child reaches majority or within 3 years after the date of majority that the victim discovers that psychological injury or illness was caused by the sexual abuse, whichever period expires later. So, again, the claim could conceivably come much later than the actual incident. California also has a statutory cause of action for 'sexual battery' which includes acts with the intent to cause a harmful or offensive contact 'with an intimate part of another' and sexually offensive contact directly or indirectly results. A person who commits sexual battery is potentially liable for general, special and punitive damages. 'Intimate part' is defined to include everything you would think of (including buttocks) and including the breats of a female. 'Offensive contact' just means 'contact that offends a reasonable sense of personal dignity.' The limitation on these claims is either 3 or four years, from the date of discovery of the injuries, not from the date of the battery. So, there you have it, for whatever it's worth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 17:22:51 (EDT)
From: canoga Email: None To: Jim and JW Subject: Jim and JW- Message: Thanks First to reierate, I feel that the sexual abuse cases need separate and careful consultation and treatment.Meaning that when I say class action, I do not refer to those cases being part of such a move. But I dont know 'bout that officialy, I just feel out of my depth there. I suspect that the geographical dispersion of all us exs really eliminates a country or state action. What I am indicating by the trail of broken branches I have found is the level of the World Court. I believe it works through the UN and the Human Rights commmission It is my understanding that that court is pushing for the right of private individuals or groups the prosecute the likes of oil companies and powdered milk manufacturers , and all thase big guys. I have not reseacrched whether collective false advertising and or fraud and out cult brainwashing and that kind of thing is a possibility through the world court. What about the Tammy Baker and her Hubby case? The television congrgation moved on them finally. They had them up for all kinds of stuff, but only the tax evasion stuk in the end. I do not think we would win. But I do think such a case would seriously slow down people being herded into the canyon. You are not wholly right about the Maclibel case. They were also accused of misrepresenting the company and its practices to young employees. Exploitation i think it was called Anyway, I have a contact for one of the UN lawyers in Rome and will dig it out after I come back from the beauty parlor. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 00:56:08 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: canoga Subject: Jim and JW- Message: The World Court deals with governments, not individuals. Plus the world court is notoreously ineffective. Notek that the US has been found guilty several times by the world court (Panama, Nicaragua, even Cuba, I think) and it just ignores the decision because it chooses to avoid the jurisdiction. I don't think the UN is interested in disgussing or pursuing Maharaji. The Jim Baker case was financial fraud and tax evasion. Basically taking church money and using it for personal use. That would be a great case against M if anyone has the information. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 05:17:55 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Story time - Hallo RT! Message: Dear RT, I was thinking about the story you wanted us to write. Well I got an image of a lovely children's story with simple but colourful illustrations. It's called 'The Young Master' and is about a little boy who in the children's play, decides he wants to be the Master. Imagine a trunk full of costumes. All the children want to play. But there is only one costume he wants, and that's the master's outfit. So the children open in this trunk (in the attic of course) and all take out their costumes: pirates, jewels, scarves, dresses, swords, the lot. He paints his face brown with boot polish and they all play a wonderful game. That is as far as I have got. Anyone like to continue? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 06:23:31 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Judex Subject: Story time Part 2 - Hallo RT! Message: Okay, I realised you guys probably won't want to play this game. The combined story should be an adults one (and I think we are all already writing it, RT, as you said). So..I will complete this little tale. Well, all the children are having great fun, playing in the attic. Then the little master looks around and notices that the other kids are all playing happily together, but no-one seems to want to play with him! Pirates, witches, cowboys, princesses...all are fighting, flying around the room, riding the furniture and tripping over their shoes. But...the little Master was alone. So. he thinks for a moment, and then taps on the trunk. 'Attention, everybody!' he says, in his soft but firm voice. He stands up on top of the trunk to seem a bit more important. 'Ha hum. I am here to announce to you all today that I...am God!' All the children look at one another in puzzlement. 'What, he is god! Will that spoil our game?' 'Now you all have to do exactly what I say' said the Young Master, 'or you can't come to heaven'. 'Well okay' said all the other children. So straight away they had to do things like bow and scrape before him, kiss his little slippers, sprinkle rose water on his hair and other such devotions. Then he opened the trunk, seeing an even greater opportunity than all this attention and love that was being bestowed upon him. 'Now you must give me all your toys' he said. So reluctantly now, because the children started to wonder if this was really such a good game after all, one by one the children placed all their fine jewels, their broken toys and whatever else they could find around the place and put it all in the trunk. end of part 2 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 06:32:03 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Story time Part 3 - Hallo RT! Message: Then when the trunk was full, the Young Master closed it with a flourish. 'Well, I am very satisfied for today' he said in his best young master's voice. 'So I am sending you all back home. But you must return at the same time tomorrow, and bring me more jewels.' The children were all very disappointed that their game had ended this way. 'But M..Master!' they all said. 'The game's over. We want to play anothe game now!' 'But I AM God!' said the Young Master. 'I can't change that now! And you know God has to have the best toys and the best food and the best clothes adn everything! So run home and then come back tomorrow and bring me more! Remember, I am watching you, even in your sleep I will be watching over you!' So all the chidlren hurried home. They were a bit worried now. To tell the truth, the Young Master himself was, too. But now the game had started, he didn't know how to end it! 'What will I do?' he thought to himself, as he admired himself in the antique mirror in the attic. 'I am a very handsome fellow. Quite good enough to BE god! But what will happen if the REAL god finds out!' But he didnt' want to think about that too much, as he became entranced by the sight of himself with feathers in his hair and curled-up slippers on his feet. So he made a plan, right there and then. He would never tell the other children that he was not really God. Well, if they were silly enough to believe him, let them give him all their toys! And so the game continued. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 06:47:44 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Story time Part 4 (final) Message: So day after day, week after week the children made their weary way to the attic and brought the Young Master everything he desired. Sometimes it was a new toy, like a boat or a gun. Sometimes it was cakes, and icecreams. Once he even told them to all bring him their piggybanks - and they did! They didn't dare question him now - he had become so important and powerful. What would happen if they displeased him! He might make storms come and lightning and thunder and awful, scary things. He might not watch over them at night, after the lights were turned out. And worst of all, they had forgotten how to play any other games! Well the Young Master's attic was full by now. Toys, gifts, rosewater by the bottle full, shoes, hats, all sorts of treasures. In fact, he didn't even know what to do with them all! He couldnt' wear them all at once! And besides, he was running out of room. To tell the truth, he started to wonder whether this game was really so much fun after all. He missed the rough and tumble of the games they used to play. It was dull, and awkward, having to sit on his throne every afternoon and smile and stare while the children bowed and scraped. Sometimes he would make a sign in the air, to bless them, and he liked doing that, because he really was rather a kind little boy at heart. One day after all the children had done home, the Young Master heard a little sound. He looked around and found a little girl crying in the corner. 'What's the matter?' he said. 'I don't have anyone to play with!' said the little girl. 'I'm just new! The children told me if I came to see you I might get my wish come true!' 'And what is that?' he asked kindly. 'I want to be God for a change' she said. 'I want a turn!' And so, the Young Master finally found a way to give up being God and go back to being a normal little boy. Let her have a turn! He didn't mind! Quickly he gave her all the toys and jewels and showed her the trunk and the throne and the mirror where she could admire herself. Then he raced outside into the lovely afternoon, where the wind was blowing in the trees and the clouds were racing across the sky like chariots. He flopped down onto the grass and gazed in wonder at the world around him. It felt so good to be free, to be away from that stuffy old attic! And the next thing he knew he was rolling in the damp grass, and his clothes were getting messy and his hair was all wild and his shirt lost a button. And he didn't care! He was a real boy again, at last. THE END Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 17:43:47 (EDT)
From: RT Email: holy grail To: Judex Subject: Your Story! Message: Dear Judex, that was really nice; easy to illustrate, visualize, gentle and genteel. If we could just get the Indian ex-premies behind this...!! Your story would make a nice web site with pictures..I wonder if there are Storybooks on the 'net? thanks for having fun and benefitting all the little boys and girls who want to sing and play with ARTI-ficial God! :) RT, who says, don't ask me, it just happens. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 23:45:58 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: RT Subject: to RT Message: RT I like the idea of having the story on the net, maybe linked to this site, with pictures. Can you do pictures? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 00:09:38 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Judex Subject: to RT (not?) - Fridge Material Message: Dear RT I just realised I am probably asking the wrong person (about illustrations). I only know you as a punster tho I am sure you are multi-talented. Fact is, I am hoping we can have some groovy 'theme' segments attached to this site one day, which other people have discussed here before. Someone may even be working on it right now, I don't know. Your hilarious material could be under 'best of...humour' (remember someone suggesting this, guys?). BTW your post on 'creativity' (which is now on my fridge alongside a picture of beautiful snow wolves from Katie and a post by Krishnamurti (from ?) helped to get me to do that and I enjoyed it! What a treasure chest the Forum has been for me! Apart from the material on the fridge I have 'Love's Labor Lost' from Sir David (a lament) and the Rumi poem from Bobby. You guys fill me up! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 00:49:17 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Judex Subject: I think RT can draw Message: So can I (but I am not a cartoonist) and so can VP. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 08:05:11 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Katie Subject: I think RT can draw - to Katie Message: Wow, do you feel inspired to do a picture? Can you do it on the computer? Or hand paint? I love artists. BTW - anyone read The Little Prince? It's like a fable. That's the sort of stories I've always wanted to write. It has simple hand-drawn piccies. That's the style I love. Also - still plugging 'Frog and Toad' by..still can't remember,..who was it that had a copy of that - Robyn? The illustrations in that are brilliant, just right IMO. (for those who havent read it they are wry, sensitive and delightful stories about two friends, and so observant about human nature! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 09:29:44 (EDT)
From: RT Email: hold the email To: Judex Subject: art from rt? Message: Whoa, yippee kiyii yo git along little ex-ies I used to draw anything but now I'm ex-cusing: I like to draw pictures but now just conclusions! the computer made me say that. The PC made me do it. RT: who says little, but will admit tomorrow's me B'day. July 16. sob...you're the only guru-oid friends I've got. All the tied and dyed Premies don't call anymore. Boo-Hoo, It's all you're fault! You made them superficial and unable to think! :( Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 14:03:22 (EDT)
From: Ms. K Email: None To: RT Subject: rt b'day? Message: It's all you're fault! You made them superficial and unable to think! :( Gosh, RT, we're sorry! In compensation, we have alerted Robyn, the forum birthday goddess, to the fact that your birthday is tomorrow. Be prepared... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 16:33:26 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: RT Subject: Happy Birthday RT! Message: rollin rollin rollin keep those couplets rollin rollin rollin rollin RT! don't try to understand em just use your brains and land em rollin rollin rollin, WELL DONE! move em in move em out move em in move em out move em in move em out RT! (waitin at the end as....my guide) RT! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 18:25:18 (EDT)
From: RTEASED Email: hehehe To: Judex Subject: thanks a day early. Message: RT and Judex are having an afternoon tea break. Judex says: how does it feel to be free? RT turns on the radio, the Who are playing 'Only Love' RT sings: 'Only Love could make me free it's innate as we can see. Only love, can stop the pain of the culty no-bargain. Love! Reigning RT. Reigning over me. Reigning over me. Reigning over me.' They dance for awhile, and smile. Thank you! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 01:48:46 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: RTEASED Subject: thanks a day early. Message: RT not teased! having tea? What is the tune of that Who song??? some words? All I can think of when I see the name is 'But only love can break your heart try to be sure right from the start yes only love can break your heart' oh yes. Neil Young. RT you are dancing! we are dancing in the temple 'we are the sultans of swing' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 21:31:29 (EDT)
From: carol Email: None To: Judex Subject: Great work,Judex! nt Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 06:54:44 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Judex Subject: You're a natural... Message: I keep thinking when I see all the material that is being produced by ex-premies on this site, be it lyrical, whimsical, poetical, critical, topical - I wish I could bottle a lot of it. Christ, why does so much great creativity come from essentially, a lot of pain/hardship? Ah well, yin yang, methinks!! Loved your story. Actually, I think we're the only ones awake right now! C U later (or the rude version is when somebody says See You, you say N T back to them). See what your children's story has done to me? I've regressed in seconds! TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 07:06:05 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: TD Subject: You're a natural... Message: rude thing! love it! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 14:07:45 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Judex Subject: You're a natural... Message: Thanks for the story. I loved it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 02:33:45 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Red Heart bleeds fake blood Message: Red Heart posted this in the soon-to-inactive thread below: i don't know the whole story about any of these accusations, but i will tell you this, that no matter who it was, if someone molested my child I would report him/her to the authorities, and i wouldn't wait to get ANYbody's permission or approval. where were the parents of these children? why wait for someone you see as a figurehead to play policeman? there are real police and real laws and real courts that deal with that sort of thing. i'm sorry, but i don't take being 'influenced' as any excuse for any parent to 'look away' when children are being hurt in any way. to me, every adult who is directly aware (and not just from hearsay) of any such situation who does not act to both protect the child(ren) and stop the assailant is pathetic. there is no excuse for such abuse via neglect. I swear, sometimes I get the feeling that some people just will join anything to have an excuse not to feel or think for themselves -- even when the teacher is telling them to think and feel for themselves (as Maharaji so often does). It's not the teacher's responsibility. It is each individual. Each individual responsible for their own actions. And a parent's duty to protect their child. If they don't, they don't deserve to even be called a parent, nor to have the legal rights as parent and guardian. premie red heart Oh, Red Heart, What the hell is your problem? This was a cult, my dear friend. Let me explain what that means. We were ALL like you, that is, afraid to honestly look at facts, afraid to actually take real responsibility for our lives, afraid to use capital letters. Afraid to email me your phone number so I can harass the shit ... no, sorry, I'm getting carried away. Again. Oy vey! Red Heart, let's forget about the sex thing a bit, let's talk about other less-emotionally charged matters. Like murder. Maharaji had a couple of choice mahatmas in the west before Millenium. One of the most important was Fakiranand. Fakiranand tried to kill the guy who threw a cream pie in Maharaji's face. Fakiranand and an ashram premie from Detroit. It's common knowledge amongst anyone who was around then that Maharaji whisked Fakiranand out of the country, apparently first to Europe, then to India. The authorities are here. He's over there. At the Millenium press conference Maharaji was asked about this matter. At first the premies there tried to stop the question. All the reporters threatened to bolt so Maharaji ultiamtely dealt with it. How? By lying his fat little face off. 'Oh, we're looking into it. Next?' The ashram brother was sent to Hawaii, I heard. He was never surrendered to the authorities either. Now, all the premies knew about this. What message does Maharaji implicitly convey by how he handled the whole thing? Come on, Red Heart, it's an easy question but I want to see if you're thinking. Come on, tell me. What message? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 03:17:48 (EDT)
From: canoga park Email: None To: Jim Subject: Red Heart bleeds fake blood??? Message: Shees Jim take it easy. When I read that stuff about those kids I went wild too. You can hardly blame him for going up in a sheet of flame about it. He isnt refuting the murder claim, he's reacting honestly to the sexual abuse. Ye gods, that is natural reaction. After I went wild about , I realized the people involved take their time about when and how they take action. This forum is the place to start to deal with it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 09:35:28 (EDT)
From: red heart Email: None To: Jim Subject: Red Heart is not bleeding Message: Maharaji did not condone what Fakiranand did, and was angry that it happened. It was not murder, by the way. and i really don't know the particulars of exactly what happened. i do know that Fakiranand was acting out of his Hindi concepts and beliefs and not out of what he was taught by Maharaji. What Maharaji is offering and giving is like water to those dying of thirst, and it spans to hundreds of thousands of people, probably more. He has his own huge number of problems to deal with in his daily life, and he will never be the one to set each situation straight. He is doing his best to help us all be able to stand and act on our own as conscious and compassionate beings, coming from gentleness and not force, kindness and not hate. And he often talks about the nature of a human being, the true nature, being kindness and gentleness. Each of us has to do in our own lives. After the Fakiranand incident of gross violence, it was clear to all premies that heard about it, and most did, that Maharaji does NOT condone violence and revengeful actions such as Fakiranand and the other premie took. Unfortunately, it is hard for a lot of people to learn to feel and think for themselves, even after receiving Knowledge. It takes dedication and effort to be real and not act out of old conditioning. Fakiranand had some terrible conditioning. I know very few people who are not followers and victims of what they conceive to be THE rules, etc. It's not a perfect world, and bad things happen. Doesn't make it Maharaji's fault. Never did. He is showing us a way to be free of that kind of rot. In my opinion what Fakiranand and the other premie did was evil. Receiving Knowledge doesn't make a person automatically never be evil. A person has to open themself up to the benefit of inner peace and fulfillment, and continue to take responsibility for their own actions, and let go of concepts which would make a person feel that God or Maharaji or anyone or anything else should be a scapegoat. If Maharaji had been able to undo it and make it so that it had never happened, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he would have. But that's just not possible. Shit happens. Perfection happens too. He is doing his best to spread the Knowledge of that perfection which, when realized in a person's life, would never cause such violence and unconscious acts. Violence is not the answer. Rarely is imprisonment and courts the answer either. Except maybe in Sweden, where they actually rehabilitate people. Here in the States, a man or woman goes to prison and comes out more violent and more angry. Perhaps Maharaji understood that Fakiranand and the other premie were not ever going to do anything like that again and did not see prison as a solution. There is no doubt in my own mind that both Fakir and the premie would never do anything like that again. And I have no doubt that their own mental and emotional pain and guilt was worse than anything anyone else could have laid upon them, including Maharaji's clear disapproval. Fakiranand, who would have probably had a lifetime career and very enjoyable was sent into what is for him an exile of shame. There is some ancient Hindi scripture that says that if someone insults your Master you can or should kill him. Fakiranand made a big mistake by following a book instead of following Maharaji. And I think a lot of people learned something from that. I know I did. And like Maharaji, if I could, I'd have the whole incident 'undone.' It was very wrong, and I don't know of even one premie that was glad that it happened or even felt that they would have acted the same way. Maharaji's work continues in the face of disasters and problems and he continues to help those who need him and ask for help. He has help to give. He saves me every day. And when we become more and more aware of the beauty of life in ourselves and recognize that that same thing is inside every other human being, less and less will violence be considered an answer to anything. And when we learn to think and feel for ourselves and not by rote (such as Hindi or other scriptures), we are becoming free to be truly real and compassionate beings. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 10:13:00 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: red heart Subject: Red Heart is not LOOKING... Message: And he often talks about the nature of a human being, the true nature, being kindness and gentleness. Well I can TALK about it Reddie. Anyone can TALK about. The difficult bit, as far as Maharaji is concerned, would appear to be to ACT it. You know, teaching by example. How about; DESIRELESSNESS AUSTERITY COMPASSION HUMILITY Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 10:58:36 (EDT)
From: red heart Email: None To: Richard Subject: you see what you want to see Message: Maharaji does not teach austerity or desirelessness, never did. He is very humble and compassionate, but if you are looking at him like a mirror and you are arrogant and angry, you can't see it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:23:40 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: red heart Subject: you see what you want to see Message: He is very humble and compassionate Yeah, right Reddie and Mussolini made the trains run on time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:11:01 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Richard Subject: you see what you want to see Message: Hi Richard This person is a representative of what we have come to call 'knowledge lite' (thanks to Rick for that wonderful tag) Always a rationalization for M's acts. Always a refusal to look this thing right in the face. As if people could go to the cops and report on a high minion of who they considered to be their Master! It would be the equivilant of reporting on your mother or father. Very few young children could go to the police to report a parent. That is not far from the mindset of prmies those days, M was the 'mother father brother friend.... riches, wisdom, my all to me' I mean we sang it every night and traveled for miles to kiss his tootsies, and then sure... we could just run off and call the cops on one of his chosen mahatmas. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 13:14:29 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: red heart Subject: You dunce Message: Shit happens God you're stupid! My whole point was -- well you didn't answer my question, did you? I asked you what implicit message Maharaji conveyed to the premies by not handing Fakiranand and the ashram brother over to the police. Now can you answer that or not? Everything else you say is just a complete red hearting. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 00:16:55 (EDT)
From: tom Email: None To: Jim Subject: You dunce Message: I remember when it happen, and we kind of agreed and knew that Fakiranand was crazy as hell, laughed about it. 'We' had to get this out out of here. It was wrong to ship him off....so? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 00:40:56 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: tom Subject: SO Message: So, what? Here's so what. Fakiranand and some premie almost killed a guy and Maharaji and his minions, instead of turning him over to the police, hussled him out of the country and told the police they didn't know anything about it. Then at a press conference at Millennium some time later, Guru Maharaj Ji blatantly lied in public and said they were 'looking into it.' Doesn't say much about M's integrity or honesty from the beginning. The cover-up and lies were a pattern in his cult. Sexual molestation of children by Parlokanand and Jagdeo were also not reported and covered up. Apparently a sexual assault and an attempted sexual assault by Padarthanand occured, M was told about it , did nothing, except there was a massive coverup and possible pay-off to one of the victims. Still wonder what the so what is? M takes resonponsiblity for nothing except for the MONEY. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 02:18:42 (EDT)
From: canoga Email: None To: JW Subject: I staaaaaaand corrected! Message: Red Heart bleeds Fake Blood Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 23:18:13 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Deleted posts, Fixed links Message: Just got home from work. Betty's threatening post has bit the dust, along with the sub-thread that it evolved. Also fixed the graphic links at the top of the Forum pages so that they now point to actual locations on the site. (Thanks, G's Mom!) Testing them out myself was just too hard to think of I guess. Guess I can take my boots off now... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 00:45:25 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Brian Subject: To Andrew Message: Dear Andrew, Your post got deleted as it was in the 'Betty' subthread, so I am not sure if you saw our answers. Gail forgave you (she is pretty darn nice IMHO), Jim liked your Dawkins post, Gerry thinks it's a good idea for you to post under one name only (if you can...), and I don't want to block you (on any or all of your many ISPs). Thanks for coming clean, and for apologizing to Gail. I have no problem with you posting on the site, and neither, apparently does Brian. Regarding threats on the site - even threats that may appear to be funny can scare people here. If you weren't involved with DLM or EV, this may be a little hard to understand, but there are historical reasons for it. Posting any kind of anonymously threatening statements, no matter how vague or humourous, can frighten people. I hope you can understand this. Regards from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 07:46:53 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Katie Subject: To Andrew Message: Katie sent me email saying that the post was there, but didn't tell me that an apology was printed or that it was a hoax. I deleted the post & subthread without reading all of the involved messages. It should have been deleted anyway, since it was a threat. I'd prefer that people post under just ONE name. There's nothing to prevent abusing the openness of an open forum except for self-restraint, and people are already able to post anonymously. Posting under multiple names isn't helpful to those who benefit from what you might have to say and who are already having difficulty sorting out what is and isn't true in life. Honesty counts. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:16:29 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Brian Subject: Deletions Message: Just to clarify what Brian said - it was my fault that the deletions were made since I notified him about 'Betty', but failed to send him a second e-mail telling him that things has been more or less resolved. I had a long day yesterday and I'd suspect that Brian did too. Regards from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 13:11:52 (EDT)
From: bftb Email: None To: Katie Subject: To Andrew Message: Katie, If I'm ever accused of a crime,boy oh boy do I hope that you're the judge and jury! It has been very interesting to me watching you all jump to forgiveness of this Andrew person. I agree that he's clearly intelligent(not to mention creative)and can/will? probably contribute posts of value to this forum but the 'oh,it's all o.k. now' thing is a bit much. Ask yourself(or better yet ask Andrew)if this guy would have come clean had he not perceived a threat of exposure or isp blocking. We'll never know.Isn't it possible that he would have continued being a disruptive presence,and gone on to threaten other posters? I don't care about the 'half a brain' or 'neanderthal' type remarks(although they do serve to drag down threads),those just make me laugh.What did bug me in a big way was the threatening of Gail.If this guy's such a genius that he can pull off a decent Dawkins imitation then why in the hell wasn't he smart(compassionate?)enough to recognise not to fuck with Gail? Anyone with half a brain :-) would surely have recognised the impact that those threats would have on Gail at this point in her recovery.Had you guys not started talking about banning him would he have even stopped intimidating Gail? Anyway;I'm totally against censorship and I don't care if he continues to post or not but I don't forgive so fast.Especially based on a coerced apology. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 13:34:53 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: bftb Subject: Andrew Message: Dear bftb - You're the one who taught me the word 'shit-disturber' in reference to people on the net (Gail now knows this word too, BTW) so I do listen to what you have to say. Here's my reasons for 'forgiveness' 1. He did come clean when he saw how seriously we took it. I am not sure that he understood how much he'd affected Gail. You're right that we don't know the real reason, but as you know, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. 2. He said the threat was supposed to be a joke from an English TV show (movie? Not sure). Anyway, Anon's always saying that we North Americans don't get British humor, so I took that into account. 3. He apologized to Gail. 4. Gail herself kindly forgave him (important to me). 5. He eloquently, and IMHO humbly, asked to be allowed to stay on the forum. 6. He said he would post under one name. We usually don't block people except for repeated offenses, BTW. I should have erased the threat as soon as I saw it, though - that was my mistake. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:28:30 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Brian Subject: to Brian in his bare feet Message: Hi Brian! Just wanted to say - my the Forum is looking smart these days!!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 09:02:57 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Judex Subject: to Brian in his bare feet Message: Forum is looking smart these days That's only because some idiot fixed the links he broke. Had to laugh about the topic. I'm in my bathrobe right now - and barefoot :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 21:22:10 (EDT)
From: RT Email: I may and I mail not. To: Card Carrying Exes. Subject: The Un-Master Card: use chit. Message: Creative ways to use Ex-Premie.org cards. as requested by a certain wonderful lady. 1. Staple to a nice postcard and mail 'out'. 2. Leave in Hall Bathrooms-near toilet paper. 3. Health Food store - in the tofu. 4. Libraries where Videos are shown: community BB. Stick on wall high up so they can't be removed easily.The web address is easy to memorize. They are supposed to make effort! 5. At events: under videos, & in the cappuchino napkins. 6. Tied to a helium balloon, is one card, enlarged 3 times size. But add the weight of 10-20 extra sheets (copied also with the web address) so it hovers over the heads at a big event. When they shoot it down (hard to do (the extra sheets will flutter all over the hall. It should be easy to walk into a lobby with a balloon with a string on it-and the papers in your pocket. Just punch a hole in the corners of all sheets beforehand, and put the string or ribbon through the hole and to the balloon. Copy the web address onto yellow dayglow paper: black ink on yellow dayglow. Balloon:$5 bucks, plus copies. 7. and the final neat idea: Take to copycenter and enlarge it 400 to 900 %. ($3.00) Tape to Dayglow cardboard (90 cents) and put in a car windshield (doubles as a heat shade) and point the CAR(d) at the exiting Faithful at a program.. Stand 50 feet away and watch the head do a double take. Laugh. RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 22:49:24 (EDT)
From: David de Brie Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: RT Subject: The Un-Master Card: use chit. Message: I love the balloon idea. An air drop from a chopper over an Amaroo festival would be magnificent though. Another, more devastating method would be to get the mailing list of premies from an Elan Vital office. This would not be impossible to aquire. Find a disgruntled premie who has access to the database. Find an ex-premie sister to 'persuade' a lonely brother who works at Elan Vital to let her have the database. Or even ask Elan Vital for the mailing list for business purposes. If the price was right, they would probably hand it over. Failing that, one could simply do a surreptitious backup onto diskette of the database when nobody was looking. Once the database of premies was aquired, they could be mailshotted with all the info about the web site. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 00:21:18 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: David de Brie Subject: The Un-Master Card: use chit. Message: Hi RT and Dave: I can just imagine it all. Do you think we would get our teeth knocked out if we did these things? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 00:48:48 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: RT Subject: The Un-Master Card: use chit. Message: Thanks for the post, RT. Quite creative, as usual, not to mention inspiring. I really like the idea of the 'Just Say Know' car windshield sun-screen, BTW, although there's always the danger of getting one's window smashed, I suppose. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 02:03:52 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: RT Subject: The Un-Master Card: use chit. Message: ROFL (not physically but intellectually!) RT you make my day! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 06:07:23 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: RT Subject: What a card sharp! Message: By crikey RT, you've set some lord of the universe standards with your suggestions. But I pushed myself and here is what I came up with: 1. Stick them on toothpicks and put them in the cheese at the morning teas at aspirant events - pass them off initially as little EV flags. 2. Sneak in to the video room prior to an event, stuff them in the air-conditioning and wait for them to come in and turn it on. Voila, a sign from God! 3. Slip a pile into the big shell that M has his feet in, in the darshan line. It's the perfect receptacle, although you should probably sneak a 'Please take one' sign inbetween his toes as well! Thanks again RT for all the work in this galactic card enterprise. Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:16:47 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: TD Subject: International card carriers Message: I am finally getting the cards in the mail today to the international folks who have requested them. Sorry for the slight delay (I haven't had time to go to the post office). If anyone else wants Ex-premie.org business cards, just drop me a line at the e-mail address above. International orders accepted. Katie P.S. TD, I'm still laughing over your suggestions. RT does set a high standard, but I think you meet it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 18:36:50 (EDT)
From: RT Email: Touchdown Hail! To: TD Subject: Card sharp: Pun to nothing. Message: Very good. You've Got IT! and NOW, from my ISP to you, I would like to wish you.. Merry Meditations and A Happy New Prayer! which includes: ....5 high fives, 4 techniques, 3 french zens, 2 fertile shoves, ...and a PremPal in a Quandry! RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:20:04 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: RT Subject: The Un-Master Card: use chit. Message: Thanks RT, I was having a hard time figuring out how to dispense them. Good suggestions, I really like the car shade. Also the library one. Especially the library one because of how people in our 'community' are. I posted this already but it is true, they come to the videos, sit down and don't talk to one another though they have known each other for 20 years. The canned speech is given the video is watched They quietly file out and that's that. Imagine trying to do that kind of pretense while they file past expremie.org cards. How would they keep from speaking to one another? Would one of them turn and tenatively say to another one 'did you see that' Then they'd start wondering which one of them planted them there. oooohh this is so fun!! Recent exiters, are your communities like this? Or is it because we are located on some meridians or something? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 18:18:08 (EDT)
From: RT Email: PRACHAR TREK: The Ex-Generation. To: Web Voters Subject: The Ex-Master Card: Good Chit! Message: Thanks to Richard, July 14/0700 post! (for sparking the eyebrows) The Obverse of the Ex-Master Card : The Ex-Generation Due to a need for a Statement of Purpose, the following realizations are recommended by me to be printed by those who make their own cards, or with the next printing. Your comments are most important. This is a vote. (‘Just Say Know’ has been placed below the web address on the front side of the Ex-Premie.org card, herein called The Ex-Master Card) We have found these truths to be self-evident: The 'Knowledge' meditation techniques are not of unique nature. Any internal meditation experience has NO association to Maharaji. The implication of his Divinity is rejected; previously stated, currently denied but always implied. OK? Not OK? Wording? Must be easy to type and remember. RT who say: the logo behind these words may well be 2 circles separated by a half inch, as opposed to the logo of the Master Card credit card which is 2 intersecting circles. Charge! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 19:07:56 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: RT Subject: The Ex-Master Card: Good Chit! Message: Love it. Make mine a platinum! TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 01:40:01 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: TD Subject: The Ex-Master Card: Good Chit! Message: Yup! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 19:53:01 (EDT)
From: Canpga Email: nane To: Everyone Subject: peeep! Message: Thank you. Now, I 'm a simple woman-but it seems like sexual harrassment/abuse is only one possibility for legal action. I, canoga park, of sound mind and credit cards to pay off, feel like I been duped. Emotionally manipulated. That doesnt mean that I do not believe in the world of meditaion. The duped part is the 'cult' come-on to thousands of people. Now then,I think to myself , 'Too bad girl'. But then I think -hold it, the legal system is getting ORGANIZED to enforce compensation/ accountablility for corporations and multinationals. Qoute (and I quote myself ) The World Court (hooked up with the UN) is prosecuting multnationals on behalf of PRIVATE CITIZENS. We'd lose - but what fun! Any corporate lawyers out there?- who's that ducking in row 3? My question to the Peanut Gallery is 'What are the ex Mormons doing about it?' They must have a web site. I gotta get back to work or I'd check. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 23:32:38 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: lotuspower@aol.com To: Canpga Subject: peeep! Message: Some type of legal action seems reasonable to me. While its nuisance value is unmistakable, I think it has its own legs to stand on. I also feel that it would be the most ethical path to take because M is otherwise able to continue his scam on unsuspecting, sincere, idealistic people. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 03:31:45 (EDT)
From: canoga Email: None To: Runamok Subject: peeep! Message: Thanks for the feedback. We have two tangents about legal stuff going on the forum. three really-- somebody taking actions against the forum, the abuse issues, and the third is/could be a brainwashing compensation suit. Personally, I get quite wild when I think of the Lord -induced dysfunctional upbringing my kids have had because I sold off my reason and commonsense (what I had). Our having been emotionally abused and manipulated seems to be eclipsed by the revolting thought of children being messed with. It makes people react primally. Anybody know an ex-Mormon? They have help lines in most cities. If anybody could tell us the mechanism to put a international class action suit together, it ud be them. Once again thanks for the comment. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 04:37:49 (EDT)
From: runamok Email: lotuspower@aol.com To: canoga Subject: peeep! Message: All the talk about the forum being sued is a distraction that some current premie is wasting our time with. Spam, if you will, that perhaps we should not tolerate at all. However, a class action against G due to promises made that were not kept would seem to be a possible legal recourse. But I'm not a lawyer and this is said (written really) as an exploratoy conversational inquiry. The sexual abuse is a part of it- albeit the worst part. But it's all really part of an abusive relationship we had as a group with this G. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 06:36:59 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Runamok Subject: peeep! Message: Hear! Hear! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 10:52:20 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Mel Boring Subject: hey stupes Message: All the talk about the forum being sued is a distraction that some current premie is wasting our time with. MB, It's you they're talking about, you moron! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:23:13 (EDT)
From: runamok Email: lotuspower@aol.com To: Mel Bourne Subject: Just a Mel Bourne Moment Message: Honestly, Mel Bourne, I wouldn't mind if you stayed out of my coonversations on this forum. We're trying to discuss the practicality of legal action against G, not merely consider whether we rate you as being a sincere person or not. I noticed that your emailbox on aol is full. Could it be that you are besieged with letters from Xpremies asking you in various ways to find your own sandbox? Now the G has banished internet propagation are you going to hang around and make sure that you get a chance to prove your sincerity to everyone and everything posted here? Those of us trying to use this forum are generally not that interested in your point of view. You have a right to participate, I agree. But putting your stamp of approval on this thread with your 'hear hear' means that the readers have to expend as much effort to move through your statement as you did to write it. Kind of likely to create a lot of flaming and stuff. So do me a favor, stay out of threads you see me in as much as you can- and if you want to talk to me send me email. We really want to discuss class action- not you. It's nice to be in the spotlight- but appropriate when you really have something to say. Try to develop a sincere thirst to speak before you do- or perhaps just experiment with shutting up. You wouldn't blabber on at a satsang program, or would you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 18:33:56 (EDT)
From: canoga Email: None To: runamok Subject: a word Message: Dear runamok I do believe that Mel was hear hearing because I said that I have been reading his stuff and it just seems to be that he is saying get organized. You know prioritize and get a strategy. (Mel, what ever you do dont hear hear here.) All along, what strikes me is two separate threads. the sexual abuse and the rrrip off. I have noticed that the two issues keep crossing wires. If you dont know the guy personally, and stay objective, my impression that he talks practical sense. Are you trying to smoke him out as a premmie trying to stifle the forums diologue? Or divert it into some swamp? My impression is that he means that the issues are too important to just keep waving placards at. I think he's saying assess the situation and act somehow. I could be wrong, its just an experts opinion Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 19:22:08 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: lotuspower@aol.com To: canoga Subject: a word Message: Canoga, I think Mel is a drain honestly. He seems to need and want alot of attention in order to straddle the fence. It's energy I would rather spend on people who have split that scene or at least on those who have better things to do than to doubt our confirmed suspicions for numerous screens and then patronize us with their begrudging agreement. I would rather not air this in public in this way- I'd prefer just to say please let us talk without you, or please email me and talk to me (you can MB). I think he is sincere but I also consider him a major drain on the whole forum. If he started his own site, the webmaster would probably have a link with or without it back. So why drag our feet over some premie trying to straddle the fence and have it both ways? That's what I think and I would rather be on to other things. BM, again, I would prefer you keep it to a minimum around me. YES I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A CLASS ACTION SUIT THAT ENCOMPASSES ALL OF THIS. I think there was enough sexual misconduct for it to be a class action. Maybe I am unrealistic, I am not a lawyer. But I wish it would happen. Class actions suits do not get people rich. They can stop dangerous and irresponsible people and groups from continuing to damage and hurt others as we feel that we have been. This is only my opinion and I am doing my best to be honest as opposed to draw conclusions that I cannot be sure of. AND: I am much more concerned about premies getting violent with us than I am about countersuits or whatever.. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 20:48:17 (EDT)
From: canoga Email: None To: Runamok Subject: a nother word Message: ok. I must have missed something somewhere. I dont seem to see where he is a premmie on the fence. Maybe just super practical. The sexual allegations are horrific. One would have to be ready to go public with that-I dont think I would if I was a victim or my kids.- not in a class action any way. If you read my canogas- I see we are getting the few legal possibilities crossing wires and therfore short circuiting each other. On one hand we wonder if we have a case- sexual or otherwise- on the other hand, a few dares about the forum being prosecuted. One of the lawyers is looking into options and scenarios. I am not in the states-- who finally blew the whistle on Tammy Baker?, the television evangelist- who was praising the lord and cashing the viewers checks to support the ministry -- for a million dollar mansion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 23:33:37 (EDT)
From: runamok Email: lotuspower@aol.com To: canoga Subject: in other word Message: So... Yeah, getting rich in class action doesn't happen much or ever.. but it does put people and orgs out of biz. Worrying about getting sued in order to discuss how somebody else's has reponsibility in screwing up our lives is to repressed a mentality for me to consider as friendly. 'Don't talk about what G did to you, there may be legal ramifications'. is this something that I want to listen to in my spare time? I guess sometimes a mugger or thief sues their victim and wins, but I don't think it's statistically significant enough to worry about it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:06:27 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Everyone Subject: THE LAND Message: Upon arrival to Amaroo in '97, I was told not to refer to MJs land as 'the land.' This might lead nonpremies to think the land belonged to MJ. Oh, Maharaji! I am looking at a huge, expensive picture of you as a little boy of about eight. You sure have come a long way from those innocent days haven't you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:09:20 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: everyone Subject: WANNA BUY A PICTURE Message: Only $200. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 18:52:12 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Gail Subject: THE LAND Message: theland. Remember how Maharaji always referred to his stuff with the prefix the? It was so arrogant and pretentious that his luxurious possessions were so important that no further description was required. Remember how all the premies mimicked it? Hence, we had: the residence the motor home the gulfstream the Austin Martin the Ferrari the Wadi Sue (yacht) the helicopter the heliport And probably a lot more I don't recall. I can see how M would have to tell the premies not to say the land. Who or what are premies supposed to say the land belongs to? Was this said at the same time that premies were instructed to say BM got his multiple millions because he was some kind of great inventor? Do they specifically instruct premies not to LAUGH when they say that stuff? Do they give instructions on how to say it with a 'straight' face? Is Padarthanand in charge of that too? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 19:14:01 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: JW Subject: THE LAND Message: Yes, the inventor excuse is the most astonishing yet. What was it he - or whoever really did or didn't - invented? I'd love to see this pursued. hmm, let's see - The only one I can come up with right now is - ta da!! - special bathroom cleanser for gold fixtures Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 19:51:56 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Selena Subject: Premie inventors Message: As I said the other day, talented people using their minds and talents (engineers, sales people, lawyers, musicians, etc.) are making him rich. It's sort of a twist on an old sales joke--OH, LORD! YOU TAKE ALL THE CREDIT AND I'LL KEEP ALL THE CASH. Instead it's YOU TAKE ALL THE THE CASH, CREDIT CARDS, AND CREDIT FOR THE WORK. Remember! Guru Maharaj Ji does everything. We do nothing. We are not fit to be the dust under his feet. JSCA Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 20:14:01 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Gail Subject: Premie inventors Message: Gail, I like your attitude. Your turnaround on the BM world has been remarkable. Rick Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 20:16:58 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Gail Subject: Premie inventors Message: I really can understand how people would give him their inventions. At one time in my life, I think I would have given him anything. I mean, I did. I gave him everything. And I'm sure there was a concerted effort to 'find' things and then suggest that they be 'given.' It's a convenient way for M to hide his income behind something that seems legitimate. The problem is, though, it's still a big LIE. HE didn't INVENT those things, someone else did. So to tell the premies to say he has invented things and hence makes millions is a flat lie, and the premies know it's a lie. Remember 1984? 2+2+5. It has always equalled 5. It always will equal five. Yes, that's right. Problem is, as we've seen, there are some premies who are a bit dense. Like my aunt from West Virginia used to say: 'they're one blade shy of a sharp edge.' So, like PT said, when explaining that M doesn't claim to be god, they say stuff like: 'He doesn't say he's god, he hasn't ever said it, and besides he doesn't say it anymore.' I guess M will have to have someone to write scripts for these things as well. Can you imagine Padarthanand at a big festival: 'All together now, repeat after me.......' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 22:19:56 (EDT)
From: Sir Brie Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Selena Subject: Haharaji's inventions Message: Now there's one thing he invented; the magic swinging breath meditation where you imagine him pushing you on a swing. Now there must be something else. How about inventing a way to get money off gullable people by pretending you are God. That's another invention. Oh and here's the real money spinner; get some meditation techniques which can be found it old Indian books and ask people for money to help you spread these techniques throughout the world. This money spinner has a limited life-span though since you can only fool people for a while by trying to keep the techniques secret. Eventually people will catch on that it's just breath meditation plus a Kundalini yoga tongue exercise (which nobody practises) and plugging your ears and concentrating on your third eye. Yep. Haharaji's made quite a bit of dough out of those old techniques. He really is quite inventive. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 22:45:03 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Sir Brie Subject: Haharaji's re-inventions Message: I dropped the a off my name and added an e. Trying it on for size. I am re-inventing myself. Madonna did it and a good job of it. She has a right to, she never pretended to lead us to salvation. M did it too. Not so good a job. If people won't help me out here (except you) and name actual inventions he is taking credit for, well...
but I'd still like to hear what inventions he is taking credit for - Invisible barogans? Convention center seating systems based on how much money you have?? what??? stay tuned, a kinder gentler selene is emerging, due to all the help and support I have gotten over the last 6 months! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 23:20:28 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Selene Subject: Haharaji's re-inventions Message: Boo on a kinder gentler Selene. Give me the tough cowgirl anyday - BM don't need no kindness. What is this, Selena? You going new-age? NO, NO, NO!!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 01:00:30 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Rick Subject: Selene's boots Message: Don't worry, Rick, I will bet that Selene will keep at least ONE pair of cowboy boots in her closet just for stomping, if and when necessary... Kinder and gentler doesn't mean 'passive pushover'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 20:05:29 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Gail Subject: THE LAND & COWS Message: Right, you've stoked my fire this morn Gail!! 'The Land' is a hot topic for me, in all senses of the word!! Do you want to know what really gave me the shits at the EV conference at Amaroo this year? Throughout the whole conference, in the workshops, there was such confusion about who really owned the land. It was like they couldn't agree on how to actually talk about the land. M had apparently told them prior to the conference, that if Amaroo no longer served the purpose of 'spreading his message', he'd sell it immediately. If I was feeling positive as I typed this I'd say 'Wow' he's so fleeting and so-unattached to material possessions, but bugger that, nah - I'm sure he used it as an effective manipulative ploy to get them to work harder - such is the fear of losing the beautiful (and it is) Ammmmmmaroooooooooooooooooooooo!! Anyway, on one hand they're saying, when everyone was disagreeing, 'Remember, who owns the land, people?' [sudden hush and reverence would descend on the crowd as we'd think longingly of the Big M] and then on the other when we were all agreeing 'You've always got to say the land's owned by Elan Vital in public'. Yuk, Yuk. And here is one of my favourite little Amaroo anecdotes. Apparently at the last Amaroo event which was really a remarkable event with a lot of people working their guts out (no, almost dying of exhaustion), M still wasn't quite - well, satisfied. And why, I hear you ask? Because a cow had come through one of the fences and laid a few cow-paddies near his home. Oh my God, his poor lotus feet!! Anyway, it was the talk of the conference. How could we have let this happen, blah, blah? I heard one guy say in his defence of M, 'Oh, it's because of his priviledged upbringing' and I thought, 'No, fuck that! Prince Charles has also had a priviledged upbringing but he likes nothing better than mucking down in the paddock with his wellies on!' So take your priviledged argument and shove it back down your cake-hole, you twat!' It was at that time, more of those strange, not so holy, nagging doubts emerged... %$#@#$$*$@#@! Pheewww. I feel better now. Thanks Gail for giving me that topic. A calmer TD. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 20:16:51 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: TD Subject: THE LAND & COWS Message: Very funny, TD. Too bad that reporter who nailed BM in Detroit didn't have a cow pie instead of a shaving cream pie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 20:32:04 (EDT)
From: x Email: x2000@goplay.com To: Gail Subject: THE LAND Message: Hi Gail, Good topic, the whole 'Australian' angle is strange, to me. Like JW said there seems to be a lot of Australian ex's here. Why are Aussies so hot on bm lately? Its really been great watching you get your personality back Gail, I remember the Iola days, when you started deprogramming yourself, well. As they say 'You've come a long way baby.' JSCA x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 01:35:44 (EDT)
From: Selen(?) Email: None To: x Subject: a good topic BUT.. Message: I'm upset. Why can't anyone tell me what the f%$k inventions he is taking credit for? Please? It's a simple question. If premies are making claims that this is where the money is coming from then... WHAT inventions? Am I missing something here? Why can't someone answer my question? .. having trouble being kind and gentle, guess the reinvention stuff takes a while. grrrr Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 02:20:09 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Selen(?) Subject: You really want to know? Message: Selen[], How long have you wanted to know? All your life perhaps? Listen, girlfriend, that ain't shit around here. I, personally, have been waiting eons (I used to be a Scientologist). Lifetimes and lifetimes. But really, where are you coming from? Where is your question coming from? Up here? Or down there? (No not THERE, Selen[], there!). Let go, for God's sake. Really, this isn't going well, you're not the slightest bit spiritual and I've got a tummy ache. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:40:45 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Jim Subject: You really want to know? Message: uh, ?? I just thought some premie or someone would know what inventions he is taking credit for. I thought if he were saying that on some official documents or something that he would have to report WHAT was invented. And yes it is time for me to 'let go'. Just so long as I don't do it while I am still hanging over the pit I crawled out of last December. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:52:19 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Selena Subject: You really want to know? Message: Selena - I am confused too, because I thought Jean-Michel said that in France, people were supposed to tell others that M was a sculptor. Either there's a translation problem here, or he invents sculptures? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:57:40 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Katie Subject: You really want to know? Message: Thanks Katie, I thought I was losing my mind for a minute there. Funny how the scope of forum can go all the way to group lawsuits but not be able to answer my one question. I am not blaming anyone, really I hoped some lurker or proud premie would come forth and happily tell us what M has invented. - a new food wrap for cheese? A new slicer and dicer for that prashad stuff they used to give us? New distilling methods for cognac?? Which name do you like better by the way? I'm having thoughts of legally changing it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:36:13 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Selene Subject: You really want to know? Message: I prefer Selene, although apparently Rick does not. (You could always threaten to change it to 'Planet' and that would scare him!) Peter likes Selena (because he's used to it, natch.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:43:06 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Selena Subject: M's occupation Message: Oh yeah, a few more facts about the multi-talented M. Well, we all know that he is a pilot with a zillion ratings, and according to some of the premies who have posted on here, could make MUCH MORE MONEY as a pilot than he does being M (I am not making this up). Also, in one video, it says he is a gourmet cook - so maybe recipe inventor? Does this clear things up at all? P.S. In this same video, they also call him a 'family man'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 14:03:08 (EDT)
From: Selene/Selena Email: None To: Katie Subject: You really want to know? Message: Thanks Katie, I haven't decided yet. I rented 'A Life Less Ordinary' the other night and Cameron Diaz played this woman named Selene, and .... I didn't like the movie all that much but I liked her. But then I was afraid Selene sounded too much like Earleen or Brandeen and that reminded me of my neighbors :):) anyway, just babbling.....off to get my head examined (literally it's cat scan time) wheeee.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 14:56:22 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Selene/Selena Subject: You really want to know? Message: His worldly claims to fame: 1. gourmet cook 2. has adjusted technical aircraft equipment to allow it to go beyond previous capablities 3. paints (sold thousands of limited edition of 'Starry Petal' (the premie art critics raved about it) also paints the premies at holi 4. he composes spiritual music about himself (although we never did hear him play that flute) 5. he writes spiritual poetry about himself 6. he's bilingual 7. he steals premie ideas as his own (CAD house-designing), gold toilet-bowl design 8. he creates spiritual discourse for print such as 'Guru Maharaj Ji has got the peanut butter, but he is not gonna spread it around. You are the knife! You spread it.' Auckland, New Zealand, October 24, 1974 6. he's a top-notch pilot who gets 100% on his requalifying tests although he admits to being nervous about failing them Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 19:31:08 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Gail Subject: You really want to know? Message: Yes, I was in the libretto of the latest cult CD that Prem Pal Rawat is listed as co-composer of a few songs. One was with John Adornney (sp?), a guy I recall who lived in the Santa Cruz ashram and who played the cello. Another one he supposedly co-authored with that famous musician Fuzbee. I assume both John and Fuzbee play in the band at programs. I didn't notice M had written anything by HIMSELF. Oh well, the songs likely have limited sales appeal anyway. And when you have your own personal flight training instructor and your own plane, paid for, of course by others, I can see how difficult it might be to pass those flight exams. And then of course there's that fulltime job M has to maintain to pay the bills. He must have to flight train only and night and on the weekends. I saw one of his videos with shots of clouds obviously taken out a plane window. Maybe he did that too. Who knows, that might be worth a few bucks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 13:52:03 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Gail Subject: Gail, thanks! Message: This list was really funny. Sometimes truth is weirder than fiction. (I AM still wondering about the 'sculptor' remark, though). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 14:28:47 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Gail Subject: Gail, thanks again from me! Message: Wow I had no idea he was so very brilliant! It must be his followers fault that things aren't going well, since obviously he is so very competent. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 02:44:39 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: Gail Subject: You really want to know? Message: I was told many many years ago(in the strictest of condfidence of course!!!) that prempal had inverted a perpetual motion machine which was being kept secret 'until the right time'. I was also told that he does work as a specialist computer consultant for companies like IBM. I was told that when IBM needed help in designing new computer architecture or new software they came to prempal to ask advice............of course, being a computer worker myself at that time, that was exactly what I wanted to hear. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 02:07:01 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Gail Subject: THE LAND Message: Gail I also have a picture of M at about 8. Black and white, garland around his neck. Funny, I don't want to throw it away but have no attachment to the other pics, or the music. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 16:48:09 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Full Circle Message: Dear Everyone You may not be in the mood for this so if not, please don't read! This post is about how I can separate the dancer from the dance as in a Yeats poem Katie will know, I'm sure. I still believe in god, I don't believe Maharaji is god, and I thank Maharaji for the experience he was able to evoke in me and carefully and sensitively bring me to knowledge. Going inside of me was my journey. What the price is, we can disagree on. However I am grateful for the experience I did have with knowledge. It was one that I probably only needed to have once. I have to add that with the breakdown I had came some left-overs of LSD trips 20 years before. My psyche was all stretched and torn all that time. the fabric of my consciousness was damaged. So through the grounded traditonal practice of knowledge i was finally able to see that there is exquisite joy inside, to be freely had should one wish or be so lucky to feel it. I would like to copy this Kabir poem for you. Between the conscious and the unconscious, the mind has put up a swing: all earth creatures, even the supernovas, sway between these two trees, and it never winds down. Angels, animals, humans, insects by the million, also the wheeling sun and moon; ages go by and it goes on. Everything is swinging: heaven, earth, water, fire, and the secret one slowly growing a body. Kabir saw that for fifteen seconds, and it made him a servant for life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:01:43 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Judex Subject: Full Circle Message: Thank you for that Judex. I pretty much personally agree with your assessment; ie, my experiences are similar, including the breakdowns / breakthroughs. Knowledge and the premie community served to ground me too. As far as the breakdowns go, I'd like to share this perspective that means a lot to me: Upon his return to this world, the novice is mentally disturbed and has difficulty readjusting to his human environment. Catapulted out of sacred space, he gets the standards of earthly life all muddled up and only gradually succeeds in reassembling this nonsensical mosaic. He enters our world from the timeless world of the 'eternal now' where the space/time continuum is magically present. He is therefore unsure of himself and behaves in a socially and mentally abnormal manner. Yet this is the way a medicine man is born. The sacred Dreamtime has turned a man into a healer. Dreamtime and Inner Space pg 102-103 My path is about learning to be a healer. Psychic and physical wounding is an important part of this journey. It is through wounding that I learn what it is to be whole. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:05:53 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Going nowhere Message: Kabir wrote beautiful poetry about an 'imaginary landscape,'( to borrow a phrase from Terence McKenna who probably borrowed it himself.) The world looks so designed. We're all forgiven for making the mistake of thinking there's a designer. Science, though, can finally explain how to see through that illusion. You have to want to know the truth and not just romanticize life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 03:56:31 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Full Circle Message: Dear Bobby, I also desire to help others heal. To me it is a natural consequence of of my experience of being wounded to make 'sense' of it by transforming it into something good. About five years ago I took an extensive volunteer training to work for Portland's Rape Crisis Line. I was at the time, still involved in group therapy. Because of that, the head of the program decided that I wasn't ready to help others because I had not finished my own healing. I was upset and thought they were wrong. But I can see now, having only recently resolved my situation that they were right. I am much more able to be present with others problems now that my own have improved. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 07:16:48 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Carol Subject: to Carol Message: Dear Carol Good to see you posting today; I was wondering where you were! I agree with you, I was a hopeless trainee alcoholism councillor! I was out there smoking cigarettes with the best of them on the porch - trying to help them when I was only in recovery myself. It's very upsetting too when you see people who probably won't get well. It makes me very greatful for this wonderful freedom. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:32:23 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Carol Subject: To Carol Message: Hi Carol - I am really glad to see you posting here as well. I owe you an e-mail from A LONG TIME ago - so long that I'm embarassed. I have excuses, but... I just want you to know I haven't forgotten. Anyway, it sounds like things are going well for you. And I really understand what you mean about helping others - to me that is the major purpose of this forum. I do think it's valuable that there are people in ALL stages of healing here - people seem to help each other while they are working out their own problems. Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:04:13 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Carol Subject: Full Circle Message: >>I am much more able to be present with others problems now that my own have improved. Some woundings heal, others don't. Jean Houston wrote a marvelous autobiography called A Mythic Life. I highly recommend the book. Here's some of what she has to say on wounding: 'Wounding often involves a painful excursion into pathos; we experience massive anguish, and the suffering cracks the boundaries of what we thought we could stand. And yet, time and again, I discover that the wounding pathos of our own local stories contains the seeds of healing and even of transformation. This truth is woven into all classic tales of the human condition. Witness the Greed tragedies in which the gods force themsevles symptomatically into consciousness at the time of wounding. All myth, in fact, has wounding at its core. I continually joke that Christ must have his crucifixtion; .......' 'Moreover, wounding is the traditional training ground for the healer and teacher. By allowing my own wounds to remain open, I can be more helpful to others who are seeking to re-vision their own sufferings in a more profound and useful way. Of course, such sensitivity can be both a boon and a trial. In the course of my teaching and seminar work, many of my students have been brought to the brink of the spiritual chasm, the crossing of which requires a change in being. When they go through the dark night of the soul that precedes such transformation, I find myself experiencing it with them, sharing their pain and grief as if it were my own. My hypersensitive availability to others' wounding makes for a constancy of inner pain that belies the outer merry face that I present to the world.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 21:59:43 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Bobby,Katie, Judex Subject: Full Circle Message: Thanks, Bobby. I feel that my woundings reside in a deeper place in me, a well of compassion from which I can dip to help others. Thanks Judex and Katie for welcoming me again...and Katie, don't worry about the lateness getting back to me. BTW,I'm almost finished with Three Continents. Is there someone who wants it after me? I saw Jean Houston speak at my church which is in Wilsonville Oregon. She regularly visits and does retreats there occasionally. It has a website (the church):lecworld.org Love Ya, Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 23:17:09 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Carol Subject: Thx Carol, and plug for book Message: Thank you Carol, for being so understanding. I just worry about things like not returning e-mails promptly - you know...(I'm sure you DO know too!). If anyone would like to read 'Three Continents', please let Carol know. I highly recommend it as a good story (it is by Ruth Prawer Jhabhala of Merchant-Ivory fame), as well as a great illustration of the guru/cult mindset. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:06:42 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Judex Subject: Another Rumi quote Message: The QuestionOne dervish to another, What was your vision of God's presence? I haven't seen anything. But for the sake of conversation, I'll tell you a story. God's presence is there in front of me, a fire on the left, a lovely stream on the right. One group walks toward the fire, into the fire, another toward the sweet flowing water. No one knows which are blessed and which not. Whoever walks into the fire appears suddenly in the stream. A head goes under on the water surface, that head pokes out of the fire. Most people guard against going into the fire, and so end up in it. Those who love the water of pleasure and make it their devotion are cheated with this reversal. The trickery goes further. The voice of the fire tells the truth, saying I am not fire. I am fountainhead. Come into me and don't mind the sparks. If you are a friend of God, fire is your water. You should wish to have a hundred thousand sets of mothwings, so you could burn them away, one set a night. The moth sees light and goes into fire. You should see fire and go toward light. Fire is what of God is world-consuming. Water, world-protecting. Somehow each gives the appearance of the other. To these eyes you have now what looks like water burns. What looks like fire is a great relief to be inside. You've seen a magician make a bowl of rice seem a dish full of tiny, live worms. Before an assembly with one breath he made the floor swarm with scorpions that weren't there. How much more amazing God's tricks. Generation after generation lies down, defeated, they think, but they're like a woman underneath a man, circling him. One molecule-mote-second thinking of God's reversal of comfort and pain is better than any attending ritual. That splinter of intelligence is substance. The fire and water themselves: Accidental, done with mirrors. Rumi Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:35:44 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Another Rumi quote Message: Amazing what we can do with words, isn't it? We can describe things so as to understand life and the world around us OR we can play with words otherwise. I think romance is fun. Thank God for Godzilla. But if you're actually trying to understand life, and not just play wordgames, this kind of nonsense won't help. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:44:47 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Jim Subject: Another Rumi quote Message: Sure Jim. I know. I thought of you when I posted this. Non-sensical. Not sensible like you. Pretty stupid. And new-age and baby-talk. All the poets are pretty stupid, aren't they? They ain't scientific like you. I'll bet Rumi hasn't even read Dawkins! For shame! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 18:18:28 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Bobby Subject: No, it's not like that Message: All the poets are pretty stupid, aren't they? They ain't scientific like you. I'll bet Rumi hasn't even read Dawkins! For shame! Bobby, They weren't stupid at all. It's just that we've evolved and our knowledge of the world has too. How unfair to blame someone for the limitations of their times. BUT, we now have the benefit of a lot of hard work in science. It changes the picture, you know? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 01:52:29 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Bobby Subject: to Bobby Message: You understood exactly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 02:39:09 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judex Subject: to Bobby Message: You understood exactly. Now THAT's pretty funny. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 23:41:37 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Judex Subject: Full Circle Message: Judex: I have to add that with the breakdown I had came some left-overs of LSD trips 20 years before. My psyche was all stretched and torn all that time. the fabric of my consciousness was damaged. So through the grounded traditonal practice of knowledge i was finally able to see that there is exquisite joy inside, to be freely had should one wish or be so lucky to feel it. My experience was very similar. I went to Jamaica following the Guru and took my last psychedelic 'ride.' Saw Christ emerging out of the jungle and the fireflies were like angelic messengers or spooks. (I couldn't seem to decide whether the visions were divine or satanic.) But in the midst of all that insanity I meditated and somehow kept a center. The impact of all that stuff going on in my mind lost it's 'punch,' and it was as though I were standing outside and watching the process. The experience was no longer seductive. It was almost not scary. Anyhow, after that relapse I had one brief flashback in L.A. that was almost fun. Then I was out of it for good. I encountered Knowledge on my way back to society, so the outlandish poetry of Rumi that Bobby quoted just seems 'poetic' but missing an explanation or a dialectic or something. In a sense I walked into the psychedelic experience as though it were a garden, and it turned out to be fire. Now, when I walked into a different fire it didn't turn out to be a garden, just a more comfortable and appropriate existence. It's not quite poetic, but there you have it. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 01:57:00 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Full Circle Message: Thanks Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 07:04:31 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Full Circle Message: I really love hearing life-stories like this...thanks! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:08:09 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Full Circle Message: Sure it's poetic: fire and water, all a trick. Great story! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |