Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 17 | |
From: Jul 9, 1998 |
To: Jul 16, 1998 |
Page: 3 Of: 5 |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 11:47:28 (EDT)
From: seymour Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Agnostic? not me Message: Wotcha folks, A few ex's on this Forum have say that they are now agnostics, even Katie, which surprises me as I had the impression that you were an optimist. BTW thanks for your post a week or so ago I appreciated what you said but did not have time to reply. Without wishing to offend any of you agnostics out there I have to say that I would rather be accused of being an atheist than an agnostic, although I do not feel that I am either. Agnosticism is just as negative as atheism but even more defeatist. To believe that 'nothing is known, OR IS LIKELY TO BE KNOWN about the existence of a Superior Being (God), or of anything beyond material phenomenon'* Oxford Dictionary, just feels like giving up. It may be true that little is known about the human condition and how we came into existence but that should not stop us from trying to find out. I think many of us took knowledge because we wanted to find something that was 'beyond material phenomenon'. Just because we did not gain a greater understanding of such things does not mean we should give up. We just have to be a little more careful in who we trust and take responsibilty for our own education. Wisdom (IMHO) can not be taught - it comes through experience and the pursuit of truth. Cheers Seymour Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 13:12:22 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: seymour Subject: What's the right word then? Message: Wotcha Seymour, I used the word 'agnostic' to mean what I was taught that it meant, which is 'don't know' (the word literally means does this). What I mean by 'agnostic' is that I don't know whether there is a higher power or not. I lean towards the idea that there might be (deistic), while my husband leans toward the idea that there might not be (atheistic). But I just read the dictionary definition (in my Webster's Abridged) and it says 'One who believes that there can be no proof of the existence of god, but does not deny the possibility that God exists'. This is a little more optimistic than the Oxford definition that you gave, but not much, and it's not a correct description of what I think or feel. So what's the right word for what I described in the first paragraph? Anyone know? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:17:35 (EDT)
From: MJ Email: None To: Katie Subject: What's the right word then? Message: How about 'retarded'? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:58:37 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: MJ Subject: What's the right word then? Message: How about 'retarded'? God, MJ, this is so clever and really adds a lot to the discussion. Katie must just be reduced to a quivering mass of protoplasm cowering in the closet by now. Please keep posting. But don't let it cut into your TV time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:03:12 (EDT)
From: seymour Email: None To: Gerry Subject: What's the right word then? Message: We nearly had a simultaneous post there Gerry, Well said, but how come you're not watching the world cup? I'm just off to see the second half. Seymour. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:59:12 (EDT)
From: seymour Email: None To: Katie Subject: What's the right word then? Message: Sorry Katie, I don't know what the right word is but I guessed that you meant the more optimistic Webster definition. Maybe you Americans are more optimistic than us English. It's all just semantics but it would be good to have the word for 'I think there may well be some rhyme and reason for this existence but I have yet to find it.' All the best Seymour Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:04:32 (EDT)
From: bftb Email: None To: Katie Subject: What's the right word then? Message: Hopeful resignation? Reluctant doubt? Pragmatist? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:12:52 (EDT)
From: Stephen Harris Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net To: Katie Subject: What's the right word then? Message: I feel like you do. (Purgatory prone :-) Since if there is no God that cannot be proven, it is very very hard to prove the non-existence of things. If there is a God, at least to a Christian viewpoint with Free Will, that cannot be proven since God will arrange it so no proof can be found that would interfere with Free Will, such as substantial evidence to remove the need for faith. 'Miracles' if there are any cannot be proven to originate from God or maybe some quantum source. Got the Guru Papers. To fully evaluate it (Ch. 12) would have to read about goodself and badself to see if that contains its own authoritarian doctrine leading to mistrust of self. I happen to think mistrusting the self when in an addiction is a great time to practice mistrust of self. They seem to be talking about a utopian situation where we wouldn't need cures for addictions or dysfunctional families in the first place. Then they made a mistake about the role of fear in AA. Such that for example it is a personal choice in AA whether or not to keep alcohol on hand to serve guests who come over. There are those in AA who fear drinking again but this is not AA policy or Book, where I think the word 'ought' occurs only three times. Regards, Stephen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:46:43 (EDT)
From: Gaile Email: None To: Stephen Harris Subject: What's the right word then? Message: You really are a goofy pseudo-intellectual asshole aren't you!!!! Trying getting a life! And STOP THINKING ABOUT SUCH INANE TOPICS. Gaile PS I know who you are Stephen, so I know what I am talking about. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 21:42:16 (EDT)
From: Stephen Harris Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net To: Gaile Subject: What's the right word then? Message: You know who I am? That is indeed an interesting topic and I would be happy to hear your views as it would probably provide me with more amusement like your last post did. If the subject is goofy why did you bother to read it and how come you happen to be on the forum? How is the desert this time of year? Suffering from heatstroke I hope. :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 22:13:30 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gaile Subject: What's the right word then? Message: I'm assuming this isn't London Gail. Frankly, I can't imagine her posting that. Gaile, two things: could you please change your posting name a bit so as to prevent needless confusion between you and Gail. (Maybe 'Gaile W' or something like that?). Also, what in the world are you talking about? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 16:03:58 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: Stephen Harris Subject: Who's Gaile? Message: Dear Stephen: That Gaile is not Gail from London. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 05:40:22 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: seymour Subject: Agnostic? not me Message: I had a strange idea about the human race growing on the planet earth like a seaweed or algae or something. That we are the life that inhabits this algae and give it meaning. That we are god, in our own terms. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 12:45:57 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Judex Subject: Agnostic? not me Message: That we are god, in our own terms. I kind of like this, actually. It strikes me as a poetic way of saying that we are our own person. Ordinarily, new age talk sounds like a bunch of mumbo-jumbo to me but sometimes you guys can really hit the nail on the head. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:13:15 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jerry Subject: to Jerry Message: Thanks, Jerry. That was actually my 'own' thought - not something I read! Maybe that's the difference - thank you for pointing that out. BTW - when I say my own thought - I mean my transmitter must have picked it up from the incoming akashics! A messenger of love that's what I'd like to be... god wrote the message student of HTML Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:14:30 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Agnostic? not me Message: I kind of like this, actually. It strikes me as a poetic way of saying that we are our own person. Ordinarily, new age talk sounds like a bunch of mumbo-jumbo to me but sometimes you guys can really hit the nail on the head. Jerry, Now YOU'RE the one being ridiculous. 'That we are god, in our own terms' is not at all like saying that we are our own person. The closest it comes to saying anything meaningful is saying that we are all, somehow, part and parcel of some great creator-type thing (i.e. 'God') but that we job-share or something. Not only is that dumb, a lot of new agers actually believe it. As poetry, here I'll write you a little new-age poem with the word god in it that you can really enjoy: Jerry is god God within Within us all Is God within Jerry His god is for him as he is for him as god is for good is for all is for Jerry Is is is at peace beyond thought but full of hope is timeless like a baby goo goo ga ga is wise beyond years like god is for good like Chris is for beers (I'm just letting my computer do this on automatic. YOU try it.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 16:04:18 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Poet Laureeyet of the Forum Message: God, Jim, that was touching, especially the last line. Thanks for that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 19:18:00 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: New-age? not me Message: ...The closest it comes to saying anything meaningful is saying that we are all, somehow, part and parcel of some great creator-type thing (i.e. 'God') but that we job-share or something. ???... Maybe you can use that fine critique of your's to tell the new age ninny who wrote this a thing or two. Jerry is god God within Within us all Is God within Jerry His god is for him as he is for him as god is for good is for all is for Jerry Is is is at peace beyond thought but full of hope is timeless like a baby goo goo ga ga is wise beyond years like god is for good like Chris is for beers (I'm just letting my computer do this on automatic. YOU try it.) I don't know what to say about this Jim, except that it's easy to blame a dumb computer. Either that or you had a very, very rough day. But seriously I think I need a break from the forum. I've been glued to it since I discovered it about a week ago and I'm actually beginning to think about the things the new agers are posting. What would you do? Later. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 02:37:23 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jerry Subject: to Jerry Message: Jerry hope you're having a nice break. If you read this I just want to say I am not a new ager as such, I don't see myself that way anyway. When I first started posting here I slammed new age 'religions' as being cult-like. All that is happened is that I have sifted out what may be of value to me. Within every paradigm or framework there is shit and gold. I can talk in different languages and so can you. It's just words. One idea I like about the 'New Age' as a concept is that the form it could take is people standing co-operatively together as equals, as in a circle. I posted before about Elizabeth Kubler Ross (recently deceased - amazing woman who treated dying children amongst others) - who's vision I read was that people with a common goal would stand together. There would be no leaders or followers, dependents, masters, slaves (a circle not a triangle or square). This idea says that together as equals we can achieve what human beings have never been able to achieve because in the last age we were living in a time of polarities or opposites.Eg If I am right you must be wrong. I win, you lose. We saw the 'enemy' as being outside of ourselves and thus killed each other (etc). Once we can 'contain' the truth that we are each all these things, and can fully accept ourselves then we can 'transform' or 'rise above' the old ways. That is known as a 'paradigm shift' in those terms. Everything could look the same but be totally different. It's already happening, I believe. For one thing, we know we have to stop killing the earth or we will all die. It's an imperative. We must begin to live diffently. I think we would all agree on that? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 02:44:50 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judex Subject: You don't think you're WHAT? Message: If you read this I just want to say I am not a new ager as such, I don't see myself that way anyway. Now that's REALLY funny! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 22:21:40 (EDT)
From: red heart Email: None To: seymour Subject: Agnostic Message: I disagree. I think agnostic is a very honest label some people choose to put on themselves. My dad was agnostic, and I really appreciated it when as a young child he told me, 'I'm agnostic. That means I don't know if there is a God or not. I just don't know.' Had he been atheist or religious, a trip would no doubt have been laid on me. However, I have met those who call themselves atheists who, when they define their views, really sound more like 'cynical/skeptical agnostics.' I always believed in God. I don't know why, except to say, I just couldn't feel any other way. I got very mad at 'Him,' but still felt there was something called God. Now I have a much more experiential view. I think of God as Consciousness and Energy and Eternity. I didn't realize until very recently that Eternity is not something in the future, but exists only right now, in this moment, and nowhere else. I am very appreciative that Maharaji has given me a way to experience such a deep feeling and sense of 'God' inside of me. I do it every day. It doesn't translate into anything about 'interpretations' into my daily life -- rather, it translates into a deep sense of inner peace and fulfillment. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 09:25:04 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: Dear Mel Bourne - Ever since this forum started, premies such as yourself have been appearing and threatening people with lawsuits. I just want you to know that this is NOT a new tactic. Other premies have tried this 'friendly warning' thing many times in an attempt to silence people on the forum. You appear to be acting as an official representative of EV and/or Maharaji personally - are you? If not, I suggest you contact EV or Maharaji's personal lawyers before you decide to threaten the people on the forum with the postential for libel lawsuits. Or you may want to contact JagDeo and ask him if he wants to sue about the child abuse allegations. (This makes me REALLY angry by the way. You are accusing the women who have made these allegations of lying. Do you realize this? I suppose it is OK for you to do this since you are not using your real name.) Ask him if he wants to go to court. Or are you one of those people who would have no problems having your own young children be alone with him? Regards, Katie Haering Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 09:34:52 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: Katie Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: 'Other premies have tried this 'friendly warning' thing many times in an attempt to silence people on the forum. ' The premie 'mind set' does not realise that most ex-premies have been totally let down by the 'ultimate authority'. They do not realise that after being under the ultimate intimidation, exs are not intimidated by the mere threat of the 'worldly legal system'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 10:04:54 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Katie Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: No, I'm not representing EV, Maharaji, Padarthanand or Jagdeo, and neither am I treatening any body with law suits and I am definitely NOT accusing the women who have made these allegations of lying! What I am trying to get across is that some allegations appearing on this forum are of a defamatory nature. It would be more appropriate for these allegations to be made to the appropraite authorities so that charges can be laid and proper legal processes to be instituted against the offenders so that justice is done fairly. It may be appropriate to direct your anger away from me and direct it in the way I have just suggested, in that way your anger would be assuaged and justice would be done! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 10:23:10 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: Dear MB - I am glad that you are NOT accusing these women of lying or fabricating these stories. I appreciate you clarifying that. I do think that your post below did appear to be somewhat of a veiled threat (i.e. saying that Pardathanand and Jagdeo may want to sue for libel without confirming this with them beforehand, and so forth) Now, you said: It would be more appropriate for these allegations to be made to the appropraite authorities so that charges can be laid and proper legal processes to be instituted against the offenders so that justice is done fairly. As you have read, some of the women reported the abuse to people high up within EV, even to Maharaji himself. Since they were premies at the time, I believe that they thought Maharaji WAS the appropriate authority. Are you suggesting that they should have gone to the police or child protective services first? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:27:22 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Katie Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: 'Are you suggesting that they should have gone to the police or child protective services first?' I believe that they did the right thing by addressing the issue to M but they also should have advised him that they would be reporting the matter to the appropriate civil authorities to ensure that the criminal offenders would be prosecuted, and that this would be a non negotiable situation. I acknowledge that that would take incredidible guts under the circumstances, but if these kinds of situations arise, they should not be construed as 'Lilas' but as the criminal activities that they are and dealt with appropriately. Maybe if there are any future events of this nature, this course of should action to be taken. This is very much like the 'family' situation for victims of this kind of abuse. 'Lets keep in the family and cover it up'. No way! I would imagine you would be very supportive of any victims, and as I said, direct your anger through the proper processes Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:43:19 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: I believe that they did the right thing by addressing the issue to Mbut they also should have advised him that they would be reporting the matter to the appropriate civil authorities to ensure that the criminal offenders would be prosecuted, and that this would be a non negotiable situation. I acknowledge that that would take incredidible guts under the circumstances, but if these kinds of situations arise, they should not be construed as 'Lilas' but as the criminal activities that they are and dealt with appropriately. Mel, God, were you ever a premie who believed BM was all powerful and your lord and master? Someone you were trying to surrender your entire life to? In that situation, to bring claim against one of his official ministers, and expose him and his organization to negative publicity and possibly legal liability, was absolutely out of the question. It wasn't a matter of 'guts'. Reporting a sexual assault, especially by the child takes 'guts' in ANY situation. In this situation, it would have taken a WHOLE lot more. Hindsight is very 20/20, but you fail to consider the mindset of those of us so indoctrinated in Mahraji's cult. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:02:22 (EDT)
From: G's mom Email: None To: JW Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: JW, Thank you. I just wrote a post very similar to this and then felt like I did not want to keep up this conversation. But I think I will. Dear Mel Bourne, I was 15 when this happened. I was a very devoted premie. I did report it to Maharaj Ji through an initiator. I would never have reported it to the police. I doubt I was sophisticated enough at the time to realize it was illegal. I knew it was wrong. But if you read my post I was even having trouble accepting a Mahatma could do this. I would never at that time have done anything I thought would have embarrassed Maharaj Ji. I fully believed in Maharaj Ji and I had no doubts that he was going to fix everything and protect the premie kids. I really believed this. Later, when I became an ex premie, I wish I had reported it to legal authorities. My reasons, then, were more self protective. I was afraid that someone might hurt me if I were to make trouble about it. I had heard the story about what happened to the man who through the pie in his face. I did, as I have said, make a second attempt to let him know this had happened. And I found out that yes, the first time the message had made it to him. I naively still believed that this meant they did something to make sure he wasn't around kids. It has been 20 years since this happened to me now. I live very far from the city in which it occured. Should I travel there and file a report? Would they even take it? I doubt that would help anyone. I truly hope that someone reading this will keep her/his kids away if Jagdeo is even still around. Then it would do some good. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:10:00 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: JW Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: ' Hindsight is very 20/20, but you fail to consider the mindset of those of us so indoctrinated in Mahraji's cult.' I agree whole heartedly with your assessment of the past situations and mind set. However you do now have the benefit of the 20/20 vision hind sight and it's not too late to use it. Remember? you're grown up now! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:14:45 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: Are you suggesting filing a claim against Jagdeo 20 years later? Do you think that is realistic? Have you heard the term 'statute of limitations?' For further reasoning, see G's moms' post. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:11:29 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Statute of Limitations? Message: Mel: However you do now have the benefit of the 20/20 vision hind sight and it's not too late to use it. Remember? you're grown up now! Do they not have a statute of limitations in Australia? I'm not a lawyer, but there are very few exceptions to that statute. A civil suit might be possible. The rules are different under tort, or do I have this wrong? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:26:43 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Statute of Limitations? Message: Scott, civil actions fall under statutes of limitations. They vary by state, but they fall into general categories and are somewhat uniform from state to state. Actually for criminal actions, I don't think many such limitations apply. But since we were talking about the individuals bringing actions, they would be civil. Although the statute is ususally tolled for a minor, it begins running again when the minor reaches majority (18 or 21 in most states). Some civil claims are exempt from the statutes, like fraud Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:14:25 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: These are small fish, Mel Message: Mel, If you want to start cooking let's see what's in the fridge. (Well, better make that freezer. Some of these puppies are a little old.) Here's one -- One of Maharaji's most important Mahatma's, Fakiranand, tried to kill the guy who threw a pie in Maharaji's face in Detroit in 1973. In the Lord of the Universe video journalists ask Maharaji about that at the Millenium press conference (so named because it would be another thousand years before Maharaji would ever submit to questions from the floor again). At first, Maharaji's lackey/security/fuckfaces (people like you and I) tried to block the question. The reporters gave Maharaji shit, though, and he allowed them to ask it. Maharaji then said something very interesting. When asked about the incident and what, if anything, was being done to bring the culprit to justice, Maharaji said, 'we're looking into it'. Now, think about it. The press conference happened in November, '73. The pie thing happened months before. Fakiranand was, as every premie who was around then knew, whisked out of the country. I'd always heard that he'd been banished or something. It now turns out that he was just sent back to India. Anyway, as we can see, Maharaji LIED about the situation. He was no more 'looking into it' than the rest of us. Attempted murder is a serious charge. It's easily extradictable. Fakiranand could STILL be brought back if the cops and Pat Halley were into it. That is, of course, assuming Halley's still alive. No, Maharaji would not, in the circumstances, be the best guy to report anything to. He's more like the one you'd want to report. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:02:28 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: 'More appropriate'? Message: What I am trying to get across is that some allegations appearing on this forum are of a defamatory nature. It would be more appropriate for these allegations to be made to the appropraite authorities so that charges can be laid and proper legal processes to be instituted against the offenders so that justice is done fairly. Why would that be more appropriate? When this page exists to warn people away from pp (don't you love the sound of that? Better than 'BM' if you ask me). Mel, why don't you tell us, before we go any further, where you stand on all this. Would you actually LIKE to see Padarthanand and Jagdeo held accountable? Where you coming from, man? Anyway, there's no ugly dilemna here. If anyone wanted to, they're more than welcome to report these guys to whomever AND to continue talking about them on the page. No 'either/or'. Isn't that great? What a relief, huh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:48:35 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Jim Subject: 'More appropriate'? Message: Jim Your a lawyer, right? You know very well what I was talking about in my original post, and you are also aware of the issues relating to the concept of 'innocent until proven guilty' , afterall -thats the way you make a crust (or are you a prosecutor?) Jim IMHO, I believe you are in severe dereliction of your duty of care to contributors to this site to ensure that they are legally advised for their own protection. Yes, I am aware of the pie incident and the press reports at the time regarding the matter, I even read an article by the unfortunate reporter who was hammered after the incident and how he was invited into the room expecting to be shown light, and then quipped that he certainly saw light. Of course I don't condone the processes that happened for the 'escape' of Fakiranand to India or Ms alleged role in the matter. If this is an issue with you maybe you should attempt to get the case reopened and prosecute it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:13:59 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: You don't get it, do you? Message: Mel, You're missing the point here. For one thing, I have always advised anyone listening that Maharaji or his friends could indeed sue Brian or any of the posters here. So? 1) It is extremely unlikely to happen for all the reasons stated. Maharaji can't afford to expose himself in court. 2) He is extremely welcome to go for it if he wants. 3) He wouldn't have a chance of winning anyway so who gives a fuck? 4) Don't need a '4'. Mel, you made your point, it's been discussed. Now, do you have anything else to contribute? Here's what pisses me off. You say stuff like: Of course I don't condone the processes that happened for the 'escape' of Fakiranand to India or Ms alleged role in the matter. If this is an issue with you maybe you should attempt to get the case reopened and prosecute it. What about just blabbing about it here on the net? Why do you appear so anxious to stop airing Maharaji's dirty linen in public? Would you please answer this question for once and for all? Are you 'friend' or 'foe' to Maharaji? Indifferent? Come on, tell us. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:52:25 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Jim Subject: You don't get it, do you? Message: 'Are you 'friend' or 'foe' to Maharaji? Indifferent? Come on, tell us.' I'll let you, and whoever else reads this, be the judge of this, my postings should give you some indication. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:56:42 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Why be coy? Message: Mel, It does appear that you're just another apologist for Maharaji. But I didn't want to jump to that conclusion unnecessarily so I thought I'd ask you to be sure. Tell me, why won't you simply answer the question? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:05:44 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Premie Alert Message: Jim, Remember who outed John Hammond-Symthe first? The same guy who tagged the BM ''BM''. Trust me on this one. BTW, nice discourse between you and Bobby. Hang-over better now? Mine is, I seemed to have laughed it away. Got to run, it's the Bear Festival, you know. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 05:14:24 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Jim Subject: Why be coy? Message: Jim Read my response further up the line to gerry posted Mon 4.08 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 10:14:38 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Katie Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: And further more... I am NOT trying to silence people on this web site, I've been reading for a few months now, and there is such a rich cross section of love, anger and honesty, and people willing to share their hurt. What I am trying to say is that there has to be responsibility in how things are said so that the website is not put at risk. Its very valuable. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 10:27:43 (EDT)
From: canoga park Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: I believe you. Though I am new to this site, I read it through and it seems to continually get to a boil over point and then simmer down. I am not into rehashing the years since '71. These class actions suits are a pain even to think about. But so was the macdonalds thing. I guess I just think somebody should do something. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 11:16:06 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: canoga park Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: I guess I just think somebody should do something. Somebody is doing something, CP. You are posting here openly in defiance of what the Ex-Lord wants. And you're speaking honestly. This site could disappear tomorrow and another would pop-up in its place. Premies may knuckle under to Maharaji's desire to shut down the sites that they used to post on, but people who see him as being a fraud will never do so. It's a big net out there. And only the fishy frauds need to worry about being caught it in. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 11:12:24 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: Dear MB - Thanks for what you said about the site. I reacted very strongly to your original statement because of the many other similar posts made by premies in the past. BTW, I am NOT a lawyer, nor was I abused or attacked by a mahatma or initiator, therefore I cannot initiate lawsuits or whatever. Part of the reason I think that it is important for G's mom to tell her story about Jagdeo on the site is so that people can be aware of it, and be very careful about letting him be around children. This story was covered up in the premie community for years, and no precautions were taken. I certainly hope that he has stopped that kind of behaviour, but just in case he has not, I think it is very important for parents to hear that it has happened in the past. I hope you understand that it is VERY hard for her to tell that story. She is not doing it for kicks - she is doing it in the hope of helping other children. I honestly don't see how she could tell the story any other way. She is talking about her personal experience, not making blanket accusations. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:02:20 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Verry funnny Katie Message: I certainly hope that he has stopped that kind of behaviour, These types of serial criminals NEVER stop until they either pass away or are locked away. The are sociopaths, who having found a convenient outlet for acting out in the BM's cozy little cult, will continue as long as they are unchallenged. This is why anyone with a legally strong case has a moral obligation to pursue it, Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 11:53:53 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: Dear Mel, I am really unhappy with what you are saying here. I have been very careful to tell the absolute truth about the Jagdeo incident. I frankly am sure that he would never sue for libel as they all know they would not have a leg to stand on. I could locate quite a few ex premie girls who would be able to tell what happened tp them too. I am sure that they are afraid we will sue frankly. I think in my case that would be pointless. If you read my posts you will see that I got away from the incident without too much happening. And it was a long time ago too. But if it came to that I would help another of Jagdeo's victims if my story would help her. I DID NOT want to tell the story on the website. I still find it really embarrassing and upsetting. I started to cry when this whole thread got activated again. I do not enjoy talking about it. I told the story for the premies who do read this. I think they will keep their kids away from him. When I realized that Mr. Rawat had never kept Jagdeo away from the kids ( I bet he was never alone with Premlata or Daya) after I made sure he knew, I really thought making sure this story was in the open was how I could help premie kids not to be hurt by this man. I think Jim would jump for joy if Rawat tried to sue anyone here. His fantasy is to get to take his deposition. And Rawat has a lot more to lose than we do. But no one here wants to go through the pain of this. Especially me. I really question your motives. I know what mine were. Imagine this happened to you and you knew this man, Jagdeo, was still out there. Imagine if it were swept under the carpet. Imagine you were the sort of person who really worries about kids. That is why I told the story. Not to GET jagdeo or rawat, it was in the hope that this might force them to deal with the problem. I tried doing it discreetly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:46:03 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: g's mom Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: Look, I am admire you courage in coming out with what you have said and do not for one minute doubt your integrity. May be their ought to be some sort of private help line for these situations, like a hot - line or email address where people in this situation can discuss these matters privately and get the appropriate advise and counselling, and follow up police/legal support as necessary. I cannot possibly comment on how one could be set up in the US, becuase I don't live there. But maybe a group of US exs could get someting together. Maybe you should consult with the other victims you allude to and see what action can be taken. I don't beleive it's too late, I know that in Australia, people are taking legal action against the Christian Borothers for alleged sexual abuse more than 30 or 40 years ago with success I also beleive that these matters should be dealt with sensitively and privately without people like yourself, having to expose all on a public website. That's all, please forgive me if I have caused you any hurt or offense. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:17:29 (EDT)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: ' I also beleive that these matters should be dealt with sensitively and privately without people like yourself, having to expose all on a public website. ' Dear MelBourne, I do have discomfort about telling it all on a public website. I tried very hard to get it dealt with another way. On the other hand it truly is I think the most effective way to protect others. Forewarned is forearmed. You could be right about a lawsuit. I personally do not want to do that. I am not even sure I want to post here as much as I have been lately as I really don't enjoy talking about this at all. I don't want to devote years of my life to this. Frankly the Guru already got enough of those years. I am all for privacy. But I think in this instance the story being on the internet has the best chance of protecting the most people. It was not done lightly or without thought. What you said was hurtful to me but I do appreciate that you apologized and I respect we may dissagree on the wisdom of my posting here. I do wish in a way I had not as it opens me up for hurt. I really hope it helps someone somewhere. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:27:01 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: G's mom Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: Hi again May be it would be helpful for you to start a 'help line' for ex's in your situation, you've had the misfortune of this experience, turn it to your advantage by providing more appropriate and effective support. I certainly don't think you should feel guilty for telling your story here, I was just making a legal point that should really be noted by the people who run the site. It's there responsibility and it's mine to point it out to them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:17:55 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Mel Boring and Gail Subject: Translation Message: Man, you really are so full of shit. I have to keep chasing you around doing damage control from your insidious and devious lies. Gail, this guy doesn't give a shit about you or what you've gone through, so don't even listen to him. He's just another premie trying a new tactic to close down or limit the exposure of the corrupt rawat gang. May be it would be helpful for you to start a 'help line' for ex's in your situation, you've had the misfortune of this experience, turn it to your advantage by providing more appropriate and effective support. Translation: Go away, Gail. Quit public airing these damaging and embarrassing (to BM) details of cult corruption. You are making us look bad in the eyes of the world. I certainly don't think you should feel guilty for telling your story here, I was just making a legal point that should really be noted by the people who run the site. It's there responsibility and it's mine to point it out to them. Translation: You have done a bad thing airing the cults dirty laundry and should be ashamed of yourself. And the rest of you better watch out! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:46:06 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: To MB and G's Mom Subject: Translation/Correction Message: I mixed up Gail and G's Mom. Sorry! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:25:09 (EDT)
From: Not A Lawyer, but.. Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: I was just making a legal point that should really be noted by the people who run the site. It's there responsibility and it's mine to point it out to them. It you feel that you have perform a duty then you also have the responsibility to research and present the facts, which in this case are legal in nature. As some of the lawyers who frequent this site have pointed out today: 1. There are Statute of Limitations, which would most likely preclude any legal or civil action. Therefore, the victims have little recourse at this point in time. However, I believe that the Statute of Limitations varies from state to state and also varies or is extended in the case where the victim was a minor at the time of the alleged abuse. 2. Essentially, these people whom the allegations apply are Public Figures or, in the case of Jagdeo and Padarthanand, pretty well close to being Public Figures and there are stricter requirements for what constitutes libel. 3. I believe that in the U.S. it is legal under the First Amendment to publish such allegations if they are true, which would, of course, have to be determined in a court of law. I believe that if the allegations are completely unfounded and malicious there might be a problem. In this case, it is fairly obvious that the allegations are probably not. 4. Post that might cause problems and are illegal are: Case in point is the Church of Scientology, which has been very aggressive in the use of Copyright Infringement to the point where with warrants and subpoenas your home can be raided, searched, and your computer can be detained as a material witness. However, there is something called 'fair use' which allows for some use of published documents. Perhaps, the site's attorneys can speak more about this. 5. Sexual abuse of children, after killing babies, is probably considered one of the most reprehensible crimes committed. The bottom of the food chain in prison, according to common stereotype, are Child Molestors. Think about it. 6. Victims of sexual abuse frequently suffer life-long psychologically. For them to confront it and bring it out is most likely a step in their recovery. To come out publicly takes great courage and should not be discouraged. Finally, and it has been said over and over about this, if these allegations are true what does that say about the benefits of K and the way of life it may or may not advocate. If the allegations are true then K has provided no positive influence for these sick abusers. They don't have a clue as to the difference between what is commonly thought of as Good and Bad, Right and Wrong. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 18:44:09 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Risks? Message: What I am trying to say is that there has to be responsibility in how things are said so that the website is not put at risk. Its very valuable. What are the risks in YOUR opinion? Having other websites like this one? Not a big problem. This is what happened with anti-scientology websites. Now there are dozens of them! Maybe YOU should consider not threatening exes here! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 12:54:12 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Katie Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: It's all froth and bubble. Hot air. Nobody, least of all Maharaji is going to sue people here. They've had plenty of opportunity to have done so before. But; and it's a big but, sueing ex-premies for talking about these scandals would create too much bad publicity for Maharaji and Elan Vital. Best to sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened. Hopefully, the people making these allegations will go away. I think not! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:08:21 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: ' Hopefully, the people making these allegations will go away. I think not!' This is not a matter of people making these allegations going away, it's a matter of pusuing justice in the appropriate manner. David, you and all the other old hands here are 'all froth and bubble', you just sit here and endlessly complain about things, you never actually seem to take action. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:39:54 (EDT)
From: Barney Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: endlessly complain about things, you never actually seem to take action. Come on man, open your eyes. The the action is here on the Internet and it would appear that you would wish to suppress it? Understand that the Internet is every poor man's forum or newspaper. Consider William Randolph Hearst and the power he exerted through his newspaper empire. Should we buy informercial time and do it there? What do you want? These people don't have the financial resources and maybe not enough legal basis to file criminal charges or bring a civil case. This forum is really all that we have available - a grass-roots counterpoint and warnings based on experience. Go search the Web for site's that speak out against the Church of Scientology. Now, that is a Holy War. MJ and EV are teddy bears compared to the Church of Scientology. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 22:37:02 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: The only action I am interested in taking is letting the story be told. I am not looking for justice and am not complaining but I am interested in the truth being told. That is the best action in my opinion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 05:51:27 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Legal threats by premies Message: Truth is the antidote to everything, sweet people, IMO. Truth and beauty. 'Truth is beauty and beauty is truth. That is all ye know and all ye need to know' (Keats) or, from my television production days - time is precious but truth is more precious than time Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 22:56:06 (EDT)
From: canoga park Email: None To: Judex Subject: About Mel class action suit Message: dum de dummmmmmmm....what about a class action suit for emotional maipulation? If the ex mormons can why cant weeeeee? The multinationals can be sued by private citizens, no need to go through a country, state, or specific continent. They did it to Macdonalds. We wouldn't win. It might be fun I maust say Mel Borne has only made sense to me so far. Sexual allegations are a separate issue than this. Those families affected need to take their time about it. peep! peep! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 23:50:31 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: What action should we take? Message: I would love to take some action. I would like to see everyone free of this cult including MJ. This belief system has cause a great deal of harm to many individuals. This cult is a religion. We even have the perverted priests, the gready figurehead--the works. What sort of action do you think is required to eliminate this dreadful cancer? This net is the best--IT'S DEPROGRAMMED ME VERY QUICKLY. MJ now has one less drone bee. Look at all the excitement and exposure it's getting. The Lord, himself, is warning people not to read the net. Of course, he doesn't give ayga anymore, does he? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 02:43:08 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Gail Subject: What action should we take? Message: I love your thought that you would like MJ to be free of it too. So would I. How can we treat him differently from how we treat ourselves? (ultimately) I mean after we 'get it all out of our systems'. He must be full of anger and shit too. Let's hope he reads the Forum!!!! PS: I don't want to 'save' him, it's just an observation based on logic. I believe in the law of 'do unto others'. which includes, ultimately, forgiving all those who you think have harmed you. That way, I may be forgiven too for all I have done. Until then, ultimately, I still have work to do on owning my own real self. When that work is done Maharaji is just another sucker, like me. And this view may change! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 03:44:52 (EDT)
From: canoga Email: None To: Judex and gail Subject: What action should we take? Message: I have laced my suggestions about what to do here and there on the site. Almost everywhere you see canoga, theres me trying to get a word in edgewise. I have to watch it , my organizational side might burn out. At the risk of that , the word is ask the ex- mormons. Trouble is it would take lawyers, but it seems like their may be a few on the forum. and money. The MClibel case had their legal expenses paid by Macdonalds in the end, even though they techniquely lost. But macdonalds has been sliding ever since. There must be a handy-dandy instruction booklet on international mass class action suits. Elan Vital must be sueable on some grounds! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 03:56:31 (EDT)
From: canoga Email: None To: Judex Subject: gail and judex Message: I wrote a reply. it got posted, but must have 'fallen off' Not to be long winded, Look where you see Canoga. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 07:01:19 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Jim & everyone Subject: Legal action against forum (1) Message: Jim and everyone I am very concerned with the allegations that have been made on this Forum, especially the recent ones about Padarthanand and Jagdeo. The main concern I have is about the possible legal consequences of the allegations and how they may impact on the forum. I will elaborate my concerns and you may wish to comment in reply: 1. While I appreciate it is possible that there maybe some basis for the allegations and obviously sympathise with the victims, I believe that great care should be taken by the 'publishers' (Brian?) in what appears on Forum pages. I think that the Forum is a public medium very much like the TV or newspapers. If some of the allegations made here were published in those other media, both the author and the publisher would undoubtedly be pursued in litigation for libel. If the internet is regarded as a public medium, would not the same libel laws apply? Obviously there may be legal quibbling about where authorship occurred (Australia (?) in KK's case) and where 'publication' occurred (US (?) with ex-premie.org /forum webmaster responsible?) 2. I believe that the specific allegations against the two above named could be considered libelous and it would be interesting to see if they contested them. After all they are very serious accusations. Would the victims/accusers be prepared to go into court to verify them? They may have to if the alleged perpetrators decided to sue them or the website. I think it would be very naïve to assume that they are NOT getting legal advice as to how to respond to these allegations, and unless there is some kind of evidence to back them up, the Forum may have to wear the legal consequences of defamation especially if the authors of these allegations prefer to maintain their anonymity. 3. This brings me to the issue of 'natural justice'. I have concerns generally about some of the material published here. Despite the candid opinions expressed by contributors to this Forum, the whole colour of the place sometimes seems takes on a decidedly 'Kangaroo Court' hue. That is, all sorts of accusations appear here which are based on rumour, innuendo and general gossip with, apparently, no back up evidence or substantiation whatsoever. I have no doubt that some of the contributors' claims here are honest and that there may be issues that need to be addressed and resolved, but care should be taken not to accuse people of things and name names unless the accuser is willing to back up with evidence in a court of law (either as a plaintiff, or as a result of being sued for libel). To be otherwise is obviously in breach of the concept of natural justice - that one is innocent until proven guilty (which as a lawyer, Jim, you would be well aware). I think it would be in the Forum's best interest to promote this as a legal standard for it's own protection and advise contributors accordingly. 4. The danger of a Forum like this is that it is possible for a person for any reason to use this medium to anonymously make malicious, mischievous and personally damaging claims and accusations against which the accused cannot readily defend themselves or be able to seek legitimate redress. The proper resolution of these issues is obviously through some sort of mediation process or recourse to the legal system if this doesn't work. Jim, I guess what I am trying to say is , as a lawyer you should be aware of what the legal risks are for contributors and the website . I believe that if Padarthanand or Jagdeo decided to sue (and there is no reason to assume that they won't), the issue would have nothing to do with M, EV or DLM, but would be of a personal nature; ie: someone defending their reputation from a personal accusation of alleged criminal behaviour. Despite what KK was suggesting about 'the challenge' to premies a few days ago, I would suggest that the challenge that the forum really faces relates to ensuring it's legal responsibility in deciding whether to publish defamatory material. Contributors should be aware that the strong bias in their contributions may put them at legal risk of defamatory action and that they also put the future of the Forum at risk if it is found to have irresponsibly published the material. I await balanced opinions on this matter....... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 07:33:53 (EDT)
From: H. Conn, Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: action forum Message: Your thought process is welcome here. We have a in house lawyer and he has been our champion since the beginning of the forum. It would be nice if he was smart and commited and funny and on top of the legal issues. But alas, he went from one cult to another. From one cult where the leader claimed that HE was god, To another where the leader claimed that there is no original intelligence. Thanks for the wake up call. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 08:21:29 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Mel Bourne Subject: Here's another rumour Message: I heard a rumour that Maharaji was the Lord of the Universe. You know, God incarnate. Now that's a pretty serious allegation which if unsubstantiated, could be libelous to God. I mean, to start such a rumour that a ttle, rotund Indian man is actually God is a pretty serious thing. And don't you think that the perpetrator of this rumour should be stopped in his tracks? Or do you think he should be allowed to carry on spreading his lies and fooling people that he is God? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 08:34:37 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Here's another rumour Message: david That rumour is ridiculous and you know it and further debate on the matter is equally ridiculous. What I am concerned about here is real people who have been hurt and are in danger of hurting themselves and others further without being aware of the legal implications or repurcussions of what they are doing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 08:41:09 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Here's another rumour Message: 'What I am concerned about here is real people who have been hurt and are in danger of hurting themselves and others further without being aware of the legal implications or repurcussions of what they are doing.' So is prempal liable for stating 'I am the source of peace in the world, give me the reigns of your life and I will give you such a peace that will never die'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 08:51:54 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: jethro Subject: Here's another rumour Message: Why don't you take it to court and see. Why are you asking me to make a judgement on the issue. I am neither M's judge or jury, I am simply trying to get some of you be aware of the legal risks you are running . You must beware that your bias does not blind you to these risks Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 13:53:18 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Here's another rumour Message: I think the risks of legal action you are mentioning are extremely overstated. First, I think you have to give people the benefit of the doubt that they really do know whether they have been sexually molested as a child by Jagdeo, or sexually attacked as a adult by Mahatma Padarthand? (What is his REAL name by the way?) Unless these statements can be provable as lies neither claimant has a case, at least under US law. Second, the likelihood of these people suing hovers around zero because it would bring Maharaji and his cult into the wide wide world of court hearings and possibly expose M himself to testimony under oath. Do you think for one minute Jagdeo or Padarthanand would subject their lord and master to that? Get real. JW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 08:36:42 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: cadbury@compuserve.com To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal action against forum (1) Message: 'I believe that if Padarthanand or Jagdeo decided to sue (and there is no reason to assume that they won't), the issue would have nothing to do with M, EV or DLM,but would be of a personal nature; ie: someone defending their reputation from a personal accusation of alleged criminal behaviour.' I am not a lawyer, but padarthanand and jagdeo are not the names they were given by their parents. The names were given by prempal or his mother in the capacity of being officers of DLM/Elan Vital. I doubt that anyone even knows their real names. I doubt very much they'd want to sue because there is no way all sorts of details about DLM/EV would come out. The last thing they want is publicity. I have just taken a corporation(not EV or similar) to court. They tried to pay me off in order that the court appearance wouldn't happen, but it did go to court and I had the opportunity to say what I wanted and the information has been published, so that others can learn(or not) from it. I do not know whether I have won or not, but it really doesn't matter. Recently here in the UK, macDonalds took a couple of people to court for publishing a leaflet about their crap food. Although MacDonald's 'won', they generated so much publicity from it that they if fact lost. (I personally know at least 20 people who won't eat there now due to this case.) Anyway, like I said, I am not a lawyer; but even if this web-site limits what people say, there are plenty of other places where they can say what they want. This forum has not been flooded with accusations, although I believe it could be. 'In this age everyone will get their just deserts'....I have no doubt this includes jagdeo, padartha(not so)anand and all those others who abuse their positions in life. Jethro Cadbury Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 08:44:20 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: jethro Subject: Legal action against forum (1) Message: Point taken, but do not be too complacent in your opinion, you would be surprised what some people may do to protect their personal reputations especially if the accusations made about them are untrue (and they may very well be untrue!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 08:52:34 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal action against forum (1) Message: 'Point taken, but do not be too complacent in your opinion, you would be surprised what some people may do to protect their personal reputations especially if the accusations made about them are untrue (and they may very well be untrue!)' Ok so here is an opprtunity for jagdeo & padarthananad to refute what has been said. They could post here for a start.....and try to re-educate the ex-premies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 09:05:37 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: jethro Subject: Legal action against forum (1) Message: Do you really think that they would be posting here to re educate ex-premies, the only posting that they would be making (if they decided to) would be in the form of legal documentation to ex-premie.org sueing them for publishing unsubstantiated defamatory material. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 09:26:30 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal action against forum (1) Message: 'Do you really think that they would be posting here to re educate ex-premies...' I don't think, either of them, would do anything off their own backs....but I believe anyone can change. It would be a pleasant surprise if they did act out of their own volition. It is more than clear that many people have grievances against pp/dlm/ev. It would be extremely healthy for everyone if pp/ev officially responded. Hey some real communication might even happen! I hope that any premies reading theses posts will ask padarthanand and jagdeo and anyone else to respond. I knew jagdeo for short while and know he would just love to execrcise his intellect here...but I suspect his master won't let him....the same goes for padarthanand. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 09:33:54 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: jethro Subject: Legal action against forum (1) Message: 'It is more than clear that many people have grievances against pp/dlm/ev. It would be extremely healthy for everyone if pp/ev officially responded. Hey some real communication might even happen!' I agree Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 09:46:40 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal action against forum (1) Message: I agree too. So far no official response from EV or Maharaji (I understand that they are legally two separate entities) has been forthcoming, despite numerous efforts from former premies to get such a response. If you think you can get an official response to some of the questions/statements made by former premies from one of those two legal entities, I, and others on here, would be quite happy to see it. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 09:28:25 (EDT)
From: Canoga park Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal action against forum (1) Message: Dear Mr. Bourne You seem sort of legal minded. What about the possibility of the ex premmies taking some kind of collective action against DLM or M . Dont the ex jehova wittnesses and the ex smokers and the ex so on do that? I met a UN lawyer , who said that the world court was getting ready to take cases from private citizens who wanted to take corporations or governments to task. That was a year ago. I wonder if it would include cults. You know, impressionable youths, exploiting devotion for economic gain, loss of income due to donations, coersion-- I dont know how to put into words the various ways we have been 'Took'- on all the different levels. Dont get me wrong, it is not for money I suggest this. It is an effort to put the brakes on the whole thing. The Macdonalds parable fits. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 09:50:19 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Canoga park Subject: Legal action against forum (1) Message: ' What about the possibility of the ex premmies taking some kind of collective action against DLM or M .' Certainly it's possible, but you would need overwhelming substantiated evidence, and this would have to be weighed against contrary evidence for something to stick, otherwise it would be a waste of time, effort and money. There are many people who would testify that M has been a positive factor in their lives some of whom are successful and influential, how could their claims be refuted? You would have to prove dodgy financial practices through EV, can this be done? Is there any hard evidence other than cloudy recollections of disillusioned ex's? Reading some of Jim's comments makes me feel that this is the kind of material he's looking for Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 13:49:55 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal action against forum (1) Message: 'and I am definitely NOT accusing the women who have made these allegations of lying!' 'especially if the accusations made about them are untrue (and they may very well be untrue!)' Mel Bourne, Can you explain how these statements I quote from your posts do not contradict eachother? If you are not accusing me of lying than you must be accusing me of being confused? I really do not appreciate your comments. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 10:01:30 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal action against forum (1) Message: I believe that if Padarthanand or Jagdeo decided to sue (and there is no reason to assume that they won't)... IMHO, I think Ex-Premie.Org would win. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 10:20:47 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Legal action against forum (1) Message: 'IMHO, I think Ex-Premie.Org would win.' Please explain........(P.H.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 12:25:18 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal action against forum (1) Message: Please explain........(P.H.) I don't doubt the accusations. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 10:08:32 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Mel Bourne Subject: Webmaster's position Message: These are all issues that have been raised before, but I'll do this again anyway. You raised 3 main points which I'll re-phrase: can/will someone sue Maybe. I don't really care. The Forum is where we say openly what we've previously kept quiet and secret. That openness benefits us and it benefits those people who are still afraid to speak for themselves. That others who gain from all this information being kept in the dark might object to there being some light shone on it is their problem. What they choose to do about it is their decision. We've all spent WAY too much time being concerned with what Maharaji et al want. Fuck them. should the content on the Forum be moderated Only to the degree that death-threats or other threats of harm to ANYONE are deleted as soon as I become aware of them. If you should see anything like this here, let me or Katie know via email right away. We both have the ability to delete posts. As for allegations being posted here, people are free here to post rebuttals, and we all benefit from the truth coming out. Maharaji has chosen to NOT participate in any open discussion. He sits his butt in a throne on a stage and tells people what to think/believe. They actually do it! Let one of them become adult enough to stand up and demand answers to the 'allegations' on this site and they'll be shown the door really fast. Amazing Grace. ex-premie.org page content This site doesn't even exist as far as Maharaji is concerned. What is placed here for the world to see is what is hidden from the entire world by him. Every time he gets the premies together for an event, every time they gather to watch his inane videos, and every time 2 or more premies meet for coffee, they talk about this site. The number of messages read on the Forum continues to sky-rocket. I had been projecting a 1.2 million messages read per year, but I'm now looking at 3 million if there is no further increase in the number of readers. Should it continue to grow at the current rate it could hit 10 million. I call that propagation. Let there be light. The main thing to remember is that you should NEVER let your fears stop you from speaking about what you truly know to be the facts. Nobody reading the Forum or the site pages is in any danger of being sued. Whether or not I am isn't anything that you have to worry about. I'll put up another page about it if I am. Premies will read about their Ex-Lord's loving grace. The door that he claims is always open is now labeled enemies by him. Fine by me. Put me at the top of the list, Maharaji. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 11:31:55 (EDT)
From: TC Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal action against forum (1) Message: Dear Mel You have raised an important issue here. Accusations posted on an open internet forum could certainly be libellous if the publisher is not seen to withdraw them immediately. While it is often a lot more difficult to pursue internet libel due to the more nebulous identity of ownership and posting etc., there are many cases where intenet libel has been pursued successfully. However, it is extremely unlikely in this case that either Padarthanand or Jagdeo would pursue such action as it would definitely draw MJ into the crossfire. Your right that technically, such a case would have nothing to do with M, EV or DLM, it would be very easy for a lawyer to bring these into the case as relevant background information. And the press, of course, which is notoriously suspicious of cults, would have a field-day reporting such a case. MJ can ill-afford this type of negative publicity, especially in light of the recent 'evils' perpetrated by various other cults. It is unfortunate (and understandable), due to the nature of EV, that the allegations were not pursued using conventional legal procedures. However, victims of organisations with entrenched manipulation and mind control are often unable to perceive and establish themselves as plaintiffs in the first place. Lawyers, like the police, dislike dealing with cult victims (cult victims tend to be confused; they have difficulty sticking to their stories; and the judge and jury are often prejudiced against them for joining the cult in the first place). So unless you can clearly define yourself or your child as a victim, and are committed to the pursuet of justice as defined by society (and not by your cult), then you have very little chance of finding justice as defined by society. In such a case, some believe (I will firmly remain on the sidelines on this one) that your best bet for some kind of retribution is to blow off steam on a forum such as this one with the knowlege that Padarthanand and Jagdeo, let alone an ardent Premie, are unlikely to want to muddy the EV waters. All this said, my heart goes out to those who have found it difficult to pursue justice. TC Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 08:52:25 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: TC Subject: Legal action against forum (1) Message: Thank you TC This is exactlty the kind of objective thinking which is needed on the issue. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:08:01 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Legal action -- Unlikely Message: I can't speak for other countries, but in the USA the principle of free speech is extremely broad. Libel, especially for public figures like M, Jagdeo and Padarthand is very difficult to prove and the standard is VERY high, and the major defense to libel/slander is 'truth.' Especially in the case of Jagdeo, where there are apparently multiple women who claim to have been sexually molested as little girls by him, and because EV/DLM has even admitted to one of the victims that M himself knew about it, I doubt Jagdeo would be advised by a lawyer with any brains to bring suit. We would be talking COUNTER CLAIM FOR DAMAGES FOR SEXUAL MOLESTATION, with possible claims against EV and M himself for doing nothing about it. That also is both a crime and subjects one to legal liabiliy. As to Padarthanad, one person has posted that he/she was the subject of a sexual assault by him. He/she also said that another person, WAS assaulted by him. If that other person would be willing to testify, Padarthanand would be in the same hot water as Jagdeo, and so would M, because this person contents he/she personally told M about it and NOTHING was done. Regarding the website, a recent US Supreme Court decision has limited the liability a forum provider has for free content of the discussion. In this case, the forum just provides a bulletin board and anyone can post and that is the nature of free speech. Those accused of anything are free to respond, but, of course, BM doesn't like that so it won't happen. Thanks for you coments, JW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:49:01 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: My two cents worth Message: Last night the X-Flies played at this cool warehouse space down delow my apratment. Not having to drive, I forgot that I still might want to be able to walk and go tvery intoxicated. (I figure using a big word like that is the first step in a long, painful recovery. Intoxicated, intocixotqe, incotocoamed. There. I'm feeling better already). Lawsuit? Some say 'lawsuit'? Yeah, bring 'em on. Great idea. Go fir it. Shit..... Okay, this IS a public forum and I realize that Red Heart, PT and the other breeding premies might be bringing their childrne by to learn more about their parents' cult. Let me contain myself.... [throw up!] Okay, where was I? Sue? Ha ha aha ahh cough cough -- but I'm not a smoker! -- cough cough anyway ha ha ha. Listen, Mel, I have done my damndest to get Linda Gross, lawyeress and presidnet of EV, to suggest some legal action to Maharaji. Of course it's all out of the question. Listen, you don't know how beautiful it would be to drag his sorry fat ass into court. And I/we would with the first sign of any defamation suit. He's the prime witness, after all. Say Jagdeo or Padarthanand sued. You're right, they could. Say they did. Truth, in these particular circumstances would be an absolute defense. Indeed, the defendants would likely have grounds for a counter-suit and would bother to get their ducks in line for one if they were going to have defend an initial action anyway. Maharaji would and could definitely be brought in -- as a party, as a witness, as a principal on a very clear principal/agency theory -- and he would then have to testify under oath, first in a deposition (a la Bill Clinton) and ultimately at trial. That prospect has to be one of his worst nightmares. Do we have to keep talking about this? Boring. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:27:49 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Motivation for Linda Message: Thought of anything you can do to encourage Linda to encourage M to sue? How about steering a few family law cases her way? Flowers? Dinner? More? And how about offering to make her president of something, you know where she has nothing to do and doesn't know anything, but gets to be president nonetheless? Cushy job, if you ask me. I'm sure we can form some organization for that purpose. Hey, looks good on a resume! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 05:15:12 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: JW, JM, Richard, KK, RT ? Subject: Who Funds Maharaji? Message: Dear everyone, I told some premie friends today about the Forum. We had a bit of a chat and I mentioned the poverty cycle of many premies, and how wealthy Maharaji is. I wondered if premies were being drained to fund his lifestyle. I mentioned the 70's Ashram workers as well (many of whom donated all their earnings as we know, to the stated cause of bringing peace to the world.) I was informed that Maharaji is a brilliant inventor. He has patents all over the world on items such as navigation instruments. The premie who told me this is a respected long-term premie who regularly attends service meetings. Can anyone provide some clarification of whether the above is so? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 07:14:13 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: everyone Subject: Who Funds Maharaji? ++++++ Message: ++++missing bit - should have added that I was told this is where M's wealth comes from, the patents and very successful inventions he has created. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 08:34:09 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Judex Subject: Who Funds Maharaji? ++++++ Message: From what I've seen, it is some premies who do the inventing and then donate their patents to Haharaji. This seems to be a good source of income. Haharaji owns the patents but others have done the inventing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 18:51:11 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Funds: Deca, Amtext, NSA Message: We've already talked a lot about these issues on the forum, and there are also some information about these 'special projects' in some of the articles of the website! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 19:10:51 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Funds: Deca, Amtext, NSA Message: In brief: these companies (or branch of the company, for NSA) are/were hold by 'pams'. Dedicated premies were/are strongly influenced to work for free. These pams made 10s of millions of $ profits/year. Most of these profits have been donated 'out of love and respect' by these pams. This is all very legal in the US. Except the fact that premies are influenced in unofficial EV meetings. Anything wrong? llr (little lord rawat) never invented ANYTHING. Plenty of other 'gurus' do the same thing! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 05:47:02 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Who Funds Maharaji? ++++++ Message: thank you, dear sir. the other thing mentioned to me was the following: that a lot of ashram premies who worked for M all those years & gave him all their earnings are now very rich businessmen indeed, owning their own companies etc. Any word on that? this is part of the culture, what is passed on from 'old' premie to 'new' & therefore important,IMO. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 21:28:28 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Judex Subject: Who Funds Maharaji? ++++++ Message: With reference to the old ashram premies being wealthy businessmen now - yet another blatant lie. Many were so stunted by the ashram experience that they couldn't make any headway in the world. Some committed suicide, many became severely mentally ill. Many ashram premies weresaddled with the old DLM debts which they are probably still paying off. To become a businessman is very difficult and requires a lot of determination, worldly knowledge and the ability to take risks. The ashrams were hardly good apprenticeships for business! Businessmen are leaders and not followers and they have to be individualistic in their approach to things. Hardly a premie quality. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 22:44:40 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Who Funds Maharaji? ++++++ Message: Yes, David, finally some sense on this matter, thank you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 02:37:33 (EDT)
From: canoga park Email: not yet To: wife of 'the husband' Subject: suggestions Message: While reading the comment page, I see two letters from women. One was concerned about her friend and one was from a woman asking for help with her husband of twelve years. I cant see dialogue with her on the page. Has she been lost in the shuffle? Is it an old letter? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 09:32:36 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: canoga park Subject: suggestions Message: Hi Canoga - Both those people have been responded to - at the time they sent in their requests for advice. One person wanted to read responses as posted on the forum, and the other person gave an e-mail address for responses, which she did get (I think she's still corresponding with one ex here!). When the webmaster gets letters like this, he either answers them himself, or (with permission) posts on the forum for help. Appreciate your concern, though! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 00:35:06 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: Everyone Subject: Premies on the run ... Message: Guess what! The premies in little old London, ON are scared of me. Can you believe it. Apparently, last Friday, the woman in charge of putting on the video presentation for aspirants was terrified that I was going to arrive at the venue and start schlepping the web site packs around. Most of the premies were going out of town for the weekend. She had to beg another premie who NEVER comes (prefers to watch the videos at home with a bottle of wine) to accompany her for protection. Doesn't this sound like the JW movement (1 + 1 = 11). First of all, we have 1.5 aspirants. These people don't stay anyway. The rumour is that I have already done this before. NOT!!!! How does a rumour like this get started when there are only six other practicing premies in London? Is it Jonestown time? I may start going to the videos though. THESE PEOPLE WERE MY FRIENDS???? My (so-called) good friend's mother called to tell me that her daughter cannot read the papers because it may cause doubt and affect her faith. Her mother said, 'You don't believe he's [Maharaji] God, do you? I believe he was sent by God. IF THIS IS THE REAL THING, HOW CAN YOUR FAITH BE SHAKEN BY INFORMATION. This woman has a university degree, but she can't read. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 01:52:45 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Gail Subject: Premies on the run ... Message: Apparently, last Friday, the woman in charge of putting on the video presentation for aspirants was terrified that I was going to arrive at the venue and start schlepping the web site packs around...The rumour is that I have already done this before...How does a rumour like this get started when there are only six other practicing premies in London? You posted here once that you were copying a bunch of stuff to give to some premie friends. It would seem that at least SOME of the six practicing premies in London are reading the Forum. But then those Fireside Chat videos that Maharaji is feeding out in order to do very inept damage control are probably as boring as his other ones. Gotta have SOMETHING interesting to do in London besides listen to him drone on. Welcome to the Forum, London ONT! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 08:29:47 (EDT)
From: red heart Email: None To: Gail Subject: you create your own problems Message: You are convinced, it seems, that you are on some kind of high moral ground. your old 'friends' you treat to publicly calling them idiots, cult members and worse. then you turn around and act surprised that they don't want to have tea with you. And then you call them more names. Geez. You go around throwing rotten tomatoes at your 'friends' and then you yell out that they are not being nice to you! What do you expect?!!! Everyone has to listen to your b.s. or they are mindless cult members, is that it? No, no, they must not only listen, but they must also agree, or they are crazy. You are the one who is being hurtful. But you can't see that, can you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 09:03:42 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: red heart Subject: Red Heart - are you joking? Message: I have not printed anything which is untrue. However, I did not go to a video program to dissuade participants. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 22:32:37 (EDT)
From: red heart Email: None To: Gail Subject: Red Heart - are you joking? Message: i have felt that your posts have been very acrimonious when speaking of your 'friends' that are premies, and this is much of what I was referring to, so no, I wasn't joking... As far as going to gatherings to dissuade people, that strikes me as a bit like prohibitionism. like a religious crusade or something. why spoil for a fight when you can leave them alone and they can leave you alone, everyone to live their lives as they choose? spoiling for fights often brings unhappy results. anger will pass, and if you wait and let is pass, friendships may last. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 22:45:33 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: red heart Subject: Red Heart - are you joking? Message: Hey Red Stuff, We've never ''chatted' but isn't this a little like the kettle calling the pot 'black': As far as going to gatherings to dissuade people, that strikes me as a bit like prohibitionism. like a religious crusade or something. I mean who's zoomin who here? Doesn't the cult do its damnedest to reel in new suckers? Ain't this kinda a crusade when you have videos, programs, organizations etc.? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 23:42:06 (EDT)
From: red heart Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Red Heart - are you joking? Message: everybody propagates what they like. it could be a homeschooling association. it could be a gardening club. it could be a religion. people can go who want to go. people who don't like it are welcomed to walk. i personally have a problem with Amway, but i don't go bothering their meetings. i just left when i didn't like it, and requested never to be invited again. is that so tough? you don't believe in choice or something? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 00:15:14 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: red heart Subject: Red Heart - are you joking? Message: Dear Red Heart: Did you read my post? I have never gone back to the video venue. I have not talked to the aspirants. IN FACT, I HAVE NOT SEEN ANYONE SINCE MY DEFECTION. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? These people were my friends. I have seen them every night almost for the first 10 years. I have partied with them during the MJ lull in the eighties. I have attended programs and video events (3 times a week) with them until June 13, 1998. They have started this childish rumour among 6 people. What gives? I have walked away and I guess I have no friends. None of them has called to see how I feel or what I've read. ISN'T THAT STRANGE? If I want contact, I have to make it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:04:15 (EDT)
From: red heart Email: None To: Gail Subject: Red Heart - are you joking? Message: you may not see this, it's on the bottom of the bottom thread, so i won't say much. i really don't understand your situation. you said something in your last post that led me to believe you had or wished to take one some kind of personal crusade to dissuade your 'friends' from practicing Knowledge. and I am not aware of the rumor you say was started. and I can easily fathom that if you were in my community and i saw you posting ill will towards Maharaji on this forum, the most pleasant way i could act toward you is to not speak to you at all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 00:28:16 (EDT)
From: good news for some. Email: None To: Everyone Subject: dawkins is confused. Message: This could be a long post but instead I will keep to the core issue. This is about the darwin inspired materialist religion that promotes itself as fact. The core mistake they have made is to overlook the very basic reality of thier core premise. That information springs from matter. However, what you are reading is information. It is absurd to try to explain the literary quality or meaning of a post as an emergent property of the physical properties of your computer screen. Matter and information are separate domains of existance. Information is as an essential a property as matter and energy. You can speak about galaxies and particles of dust and all matter in the same terms because they all have mass and a charge and length and width. Information does not. Matter doesn't have bytes. Highly complex information that is independent of matter inplies an intelligent source. The main point of darwinism for dawkins is to eliminate that view. He thinks incorrectly that information springs from matter. His entire hope that the power is unconcious is wishful thinking and not by any means science. It was a philosophy. Oh happy day. bb By the way, this also blows the eastern thinking 'oneness' crowd out of thier delusion also. An origional intelligence eliminates thier view of the 'IT' as an non self-concious oneness. And molecular biologists have run into non-reducible complexity. OOPS! There goes the athiesm! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 02:02:39 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: good news for some. Subject: Frayed Knot: Message: Information is simply a human categorization related to the replication of patterns. Crystals are self replicating patterns arising, as far as any of us can tell, from matter. A crystal wouldn't think to categorize the pattern as information, because it's not conscious. Humans have made that categorization. It is held that the phenomenon of consciousness is an emergent property of complexity. There are some experiments indicating that this view at least has some credibility. The problem with evolution is that it leads to an infinite regress. You have to pose a basic or fundamental set of conditions that starts the process of evolution, and then you have to decide where that came from. It's never ending. It doesn't lead to the conclusion that evolution is wrong, just that it doesn't have all the answers. Well, clearly religion doesn't have all the answers either. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 07:57:17 (EDT)
From: random letters Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: scattered on a page Message: Science is supposed to be dedicated to empirical evidence and following evidence wherever it leads. Science guys who are strict materialists are no doubt repulsed by the insanity surrounding man's history of trying to explain and enslave each other by claiming knowledge of the power and promoteing thier self made bizarre ideas about what the power wants. Certainly I can agree with them. But I think freedom from philosophy includes any generated, even materialism. It WAS held that conciousness was emergent from complexity. But it was a misperception. A hopeful pillar of a hopeful construct. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:18:22 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: random letters Subject: scattered on a page Message: RL: It WAS held that conciousness was emergent from complexity. But it was a misperception. A hopeful pillar of a hopeful construct. I can't believe the SantaFe Institute is ready to give up the ghost on this one. What do you mean, 'it WAS held'? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 06:38:20 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: sure, it's a bummer for them. Message: Well, they will need an after cult forum. Giving up the religion for reality will entail the messy thrashing about that this forum goes through. Imagine the horror. I don't envy thier position. It has been a real trip for me to wander through the various scriptures that claim to be messages from the intelligence. The whole prospect of having to even glance in the direction of the insane mess of religions for clues will make any one blanch. But at least the eastern trip is still scientifically dethroned. Doctors resisted for years the idea that washing your hands before surgury was smart or valid. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 08:51:29 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Scott T. Subject: Conscious matter Message: One thing that has puzzled me is; how can matter become conscious? And at what level does consciousness start? Animals appear to be conscious. Perhaps flies and ants are too. What about the flora and fauna on our skin? Are they consciuous? Are single celled ameoba conscious? Are germs conscious? And what about plants? Are Venus Fly Trap's conscious? And how did the matter turn itself into conscious life in the first place? Perhaps fungi was a start. Unconscious perhaps but at least a self replicating organism. Perhaps all of this that we see around us has all evolved from a mouldy puddle. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 12:30:17 (EDT)
From: BB Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Conscious Sir David Message: The details are future fun for molecular biologists. Dawkins is a zoologist. The key is that information is independent from matter. The particulars about conciousness are beyond my scope. Where I do understand some of that is that design is an apparent reality and the complex information indicates intelligence. Where the line is drawn perhaps is instinct. Maybe that is just a behavioural lock that limits conciousness. As smart as dolphins are, they aren't coming up with any complex group displays of behaviour to show us that they are all concious and able to organise a group water show for us to prove themselves as equals. The humans are the only ones it appears, that have such vast boundries. I say boundries because despite the hype, the dali lama and others are assuridly NOT showing us ANY signs of breaking out of thier design limits. Empirical evidence please, no more religious fantasy taken as fact. There was no origional self replicating life form. The information was essential for construction. The information is intelligence. We can define the intelligence as you wish, but to ignore it or deny it isn't scientific. Yeshua/jesus marching around breaking the laws at will in front of many witnesses and claiming to speak for the power is an interesting story. Selected quotes of his provide some quality information. Whatever the validity of his story, it is true that good and bad have come out of those who claim alligience to his words. I am just relieved that the origional intelligence is not a sucker for any sap that wants to claim to be it. Reality is that it is niether a blank oneness or our hallucinations about it. The fact that it designed us with boundries is a huge relief so that I don't have to be a sucker to every dope that claims to have gone 'inside' and become 'it'. Yeshua reccomended that there is a thing like love and THAT was the best thing to be involved with in this big show. I am willing to accept that advice. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 20:56:40 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Conscious matter Message: David, First, I'm really puzzled by the two posts purportedly submitted by Richard Dawkins. I'd almost think they WERE written by him if I didn't know how unlikely that is. So, whoever posted them, please identify yourself properly. What's the point of playing a little game like that? David, as for your question, yeah I think the way it all worked is that conciousness did indeed evolve just like any other aspect of life. The brain evolved and with it consciousness. A venus fly trap has what some could consider rudimentary consciousness although I think the word gets seriously damaged when reduced so far. That is, the plant has some of the qualities we associate with awareness but nothing to really impress. It's got 'pre-consciousness' is probably how to think of it. Rabbits have a little more and so on. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 22:21:52 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Take cats, for example... Message: just kidding. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 21:04:53 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Gerry Subject: Take cats, for example... Message: Dear Gerry, You had me going there for a moment! :) Love, Robyn I've been busy doing the Master's bidding, the web master that is! I'll be back in full force in a couple of months if I'm lucky! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 22:32:36 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jim Subject: Conscious matter Message: Ah yes, but consciousness is not matter is it. If you have a live rabbit and put it in an enclosed, tightly sealed box and measure its volume then if you kill the rabbit, the volume will still be the same. Same rabbit but with no consciousness. So it would be safe to say that consciousness has no mass or volume. But is consciousness purely biological? We know a bit about how the brain works but what makes the brain have an awarness rather than it just being like a neural net computer? My point is, does conciousness depend entirely upon the way in which matter is grown into different organisms with brains? Matter has produced star systems and planets. On these planets (certainly on this one) the matter has somehow formed itself into self replicating structures which we call life and this life has awarness. But why should awarness be there? Why are we not simply cause and effect organisms with no awarness of ourselves? If awarness is so common then why? It would seem to be a gigantic step to go from a universe filled with clouds of gas and stardust to organisms which posess consciousness. Nobody has successfully explained that step. Putting it another way; if once the universe was all gas clouds and forming stars, was there such a thing as consciousness then? Was anything aware. If not then how come out of nothing, awarness arrived? Surely, if there was no awarness before then there would be nothing to suppose that any awarness would ever take place, ever. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 23:01:13 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Conscious matter Message: Putting it another way; if once the universe was all gas clouds and forming stars, was there such a thing as consciousness then? Was anything aware. If not then how come out of nothing, awarness arrived? Surely, if there was no awarness before then there would be nothing to suppose that any awarness would ever take place, ever. David, there was no consciousness back in the gas cloud days just like there were no hands or feet. You want to know the history of consciousness? Track the history of the brain. You won't find any giant steps, rather so many small ones you'll probably get bored and go watch television. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 06:02:56 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Conscious matter Message: Sir David, funny you should mention fungi. In that post about 'agnostic, not me' I was talking about a strange thought I had but couldn't fully recollect what the image was I had. that was it - that the human race was like a fungi (but not in the bad sense - more like in the sense of it's construction or pattern). I have read channelled material which says all matter IS conscious. It also says matter is a thin veil, like camoflauge, and you can see around the edges if you look carefully (or quickly?). It said the reality we perceive is like watching a movie, which consists of as many 'blank' frames as 'positive images'. Because of the speed of projection, we perceive it as being solid or constant. It said we are always 'off and on', blinking, in between this reality and, I suppose 'the infinite'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 07:17:57 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Judex Subject: Conscious matter Message: I've heard about this conscious matter thing but I could never truly believe it. I mean, diamonds are over 3 billion years old. It would be pretty boring being a diamond and spending several billion years stuck in a rock seam before finally perhaps being unearthed and put into a ring. But unlike Jim, I do believe that consciousness is too amazing to simply explain it as a biological function. If only it was so easy. My point was that can you imagine a state where there was no consciousness. Nothing. And no life in the universe. And then from that sterile and dead state there came about awarness. There is no need to have awarness. So why should the universe evolve into self aware organisms? WHy not simply evolve into non aware, cause and effect organisms. I would draw a conclusion half way between the conscious matter and the unconscious universe. For awarness to exists now in physical entities it must have existed before those entities existed. Awarness is not a measured, physical thing. I fail to see how awarness could come from nothing. In the same way, I fail to see how the universe could come from nothing. If you have an inkling of what 'nothing' means then you would understand why something from nothing is impossible. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:54:47 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Conscious matter Message: David, Can you see how sight 'came from nothing' as you say? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:21:46 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Conscious matter Message: Exactly SD. It is more likely the consciousness created the matter, or the matter is the 'clothing' of consciousness, perhaps. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:32:17 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Conscious matter Message: The rest of the material I'm reflecting on from your good thoughts is also seeded by a book called 'the Nature of Personal Reality' and another about collective reality, channelled books by Jane Roberts which I read about 15 years ago. The rest of that which came to mind is that matter is a solidified thought or piece of consciousness it is just vibrating at a lower rate & so becomes 'solid' Look at it this way - it's like that science program I saw with that wonderful English professor from Cambridge I think it was - Pilkington?. He pointed out that in our body is the molecules of dead stars. In the same way consciousness could take many forms. I don't agree with all the channelled material I read in the books above, but it was certainly food for thought - or indigestion! However consciousness i suppose could neither be created nor destroyed - it just is - and can evolve? Is in the process of becoming self aware? Of tranforming? Into pure love, that's what I believe. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:45:29 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judex Subject: low-grade mental activity Message: Judex, This 'channelled' stuff is garbage. You're reading the wrong stuff. You're never going to learn anything reading that crap. If you want to learn about evolution read stuff by people in the field. I keep harping on Dawkins because he's so good to read but there are many others. Your sincere questioning loses impact, David and Judex, if you're not willing to see what the -- yes, experts -- say on the matter. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 12:03:25 (EDT)
From: RD Email: dawkins@cam.edu To: good news for some. Subject: dawkins is not confused. Message: How can information be separate from matter? The words on the screen are still represented by matter (whether we are talking about atoms or photons). I agree, it is absurd to try to explain emergent properties with a brain capable of only the very simplest parallel processing, just as it is impossible for creatures with such small life-spans to contemplate the age of the earth. But emergence does happen... it is scientific fact. Information is only as good as the matter (brain) that is interpreting it. It is soley dependent upon matter for its existence, which means that it cannot be classified a basic constituent of reality (as matter/energy can). The only time information is directly accessable without needing interpretation is when it is structually encoded in matter via the physical laws and the geometry of the atoms/molecules etc. And even in this case, it must still be regarded as an epiphenomenon of matter. RD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 12:46:53 (EDT)
From: Why? Does he see Email: None To: RD Subject: the difference now? Message: Review the basic premise again. Old materialist philosophy has been so touted that it permeates us Your post was conveyed in matter but the content was independent. It is a seperate sphere of reality. If all shakespeares writings were gone, we could recreate them from actors who memorized parts. The medium of containment is independent from the information. Even if the content is ABOUT the medium it is conveyed or stored on. Materialist philosophy not science tells us that only matter and energy were there at the beginning. They just overlooked or desperately wanted to ignore, the reality about message verses medium. Information is not 'reducible' to matter. Logic leads to the next line, that information predates matter. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:09:48 (EDT)
From: RD Email: dawkins@cam.edu To: Why? Does he see Subject: the difference now? Message: The content of my message was not independent of matter. It sat on a server somewhere in magnetic digital form. When you or anyone else reads the message, it is unscrambled via a physical brain made up of physical atoms, molecules, cells, neurons etc. The message only has content if that content at one time had a physical analogue. To hold that the content can somehow be independent of matter is to introduce an unnecessary variable into the equation... fine if you need it to make you personally happy, but an invalidation of the general principle of science to minimise variables (Occam's Razor). With regards to the thinking process, most scientists hold that the message is independent to the type of medium, ie, a computer process is directly equivalent to a neurological process if they produce the same result (Turing etc.). Many pseudo-scientists and 'spiritual star-gazers' incorrectly interpret this by stating that the message is completely independent of the medium (as you have done). It is very easy to gripe about the philosophy of science, while forgetting that in practicality, science works. Outside the central core of the atom, quantum electrodynamics, formulated in the 1940s, has proved to be outstandingly accurate. If you think that you can create a more accurate system of modelling reality using different tenets, then please let me know about it. If not, then I respectfully suggest you stop using scientific terminology and adopt a more flowering syntax in keeping with your mystical ramblings. RD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:02:15 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: RD Subject: Who's on first? Message: Okay, I'm confused. First I see Burke RUDELY posting without identifying himself again until somewhere deep down in the post. Bill, that is uncalled for. Would you please cut it out? Then, someone posts under Dawkins' name. Now who the hell's that? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 22:08:12 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: RD Subject: the difference now? Message: RD, Is that really you? The thing is, it SOUNDS like you. It really does. But what in the world ... no, that doesn't make sense. Okay, who is it? Is it Nigel? Nigel did you write this? You're my first suspect. Katie? Brian? Can we dust these two posts for prints or something? Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 06:25:55 (EDT)
From: BB Email: None To: RD Subject: The difference origionally. Message: Hello The content of your message WAS independent of the matter of the medium. Sure it needed a container for writing. The brains part in this will someday be uncovered. Materialist philosophy pretending to be completed scientific fact cannot solve the conciousness problem. Recognising the fact that information is not matter is not adding another variable. It is recognising the evidence that even you and I can see. Most scientists do NOT agree that information is emergent from matter. They are in all the other fields of study. They might have been presented the energy/matter view in class, but they were not presented with a challenge to come to a conclusion themselves about wether it was absurd or not. Given some data, graduates of our school systems will easily embrace the reality that information is independent of matter. Just because they also work together does not invalidate that fact. I am not anti-science or dismissing anything like you imply at the end of your post. Whatever truth thier is about the course of the unfolding of this creation is what it is. I read river of eden and liked it. But the core premise is the result of poor science and not fact. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 12:47:36 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: BB Subject: Something from nothing, Bill Message: You may be interested to read my latest post above about conscious matter. The question arises, how can something come from nothing? Scientists STILL haven't found out how life came into being in the universe. Sure they have some theories about organic proteins but are far from understanding what happened. How does sterile and dead matter turn itself into living organisms that posess consciousness? All we know is that we haven't answered this question. We simply don't know. If people admit that there is a huge gap in our understanding then I can buy that. A similar question arises about how the physical universe came about. Scientists say that it came from nothing. The best of them realise that this is an incomplete theory because you can't get something from nothing. Or was the universe a minute singularity which expanded? In which case, it was already here only much smaller in size. That would fit with the big bang and big crunch theory, which is still far from certain. Likewise, did consciousness ever exist before life appeared in the universe? If it did then it would be existing outside of this physical universe. The only other alternative is to say that no consciousness existed anywhere until life appeared in the universe. And then we are back to the same problem; how did consciousness come from no consciousness? How did something come from nothing? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:38:44 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Read, David, read Message: David, Will you please read some Dawkins? Read Climbing Mount Improbable, his latest. Your questions are fully addressed there. Bill, what 'core premise' of River out of Eden is flawed? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 19:20:47 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Sir David Subject: white rabbit Message: Your posts are great. I read and will respond to them tonight later. Your final comments are the first and most core to address. The real essential science understanding is that information is an essential factor like energy and matter. They will have to rewrite the textbooks because the rush to prove darwinian -info emerged from matter- theory was prematurely popular. The question does still remain as you state, what is the origion of matter and energy and information(conciousness). Of course we dont know how small things get. Or what that is that leaves the rabbit. That is a great example- the one about the rabbit. Talk with you tonight. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:26:44 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: good news for some. Subject: dawkins is confused. Message: Bill, What, if anything, have you read by Dawkins? You really don't seem to understand his explanation of the illusion of design. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 22:45:49 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Video Scripts online Message: The video scripts that were sent to me are now online and can be read by clicking here. Also added a new Journeys entry from Arthur that you can read. Tomorrow morning I'm going to be locking the Forum to update the software. Should go fairly smoothly, as it works okay on the debug forum. But ya never know with these things... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 23:25:45 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Brian Subject: Video Scripts online Message: Thanks, Arthur, for reminding me of all the sex I missed out on. Well, they WERE fun books to read, I must admit. God, if only I'd reached for some Henry Miller instead. Brian, I thought by 'video scripts' you meant someone had actually written something down for Maharaji. Then I remembered he quit school a little early for that. God, what the fuck is the process these days? How in the world could anyone be so naive as to accept it? No questions, no conversation. This is even weirder than the shit we went through in the seventies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 00:21:06 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jim Subject: Video Scripts online Message: That's what I was laughing about. Imagine! That's what I paid $80 (for Mahatma Padarthandji's dinner) for. Not to mention the fuss around my house for his arrival. Can you believe I was summoned from my bed with a fever to listen to this from 20:00 to 23:30 including practice time. This is the night when Paddy suggested that people in small towns with no other premies start pamphleting. Does the script remind you of your first moot trial. Your Worship ... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 00:51:58 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jim Subject: Nature of Intro Videos Message: These videos are absolutely hypnotic. Sloooooow Motion. Repetition. Only a few basic concepts: a) You have a secret hole (not one of the oriface's you can see). b) Let me fill it for you. You need me. You need the masta. c) Flashes on the hypnotized crowd. Smiling, crying tears of joy, new age music Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 01:31:38 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Brian Subject: Video Scripts online Message: This is not the way to expand your empire and reach sincere truth seekers, Maharaji; but then why should you listen to me? The figures bear me out. How many people received K in the USA last year? 300 or something, of which only about 30 will practise for a while before dropping out of it through sheer boredom. Best bring back the old satsang format again. What I used to like about it was sometimes it would be a real laugh when the comediens got on stage. Glen Whittaker used to have us in stitches, on his good days. But a one man cult? It's doomed to failure. And no questions or talk and no humour? What are you Maharaji? Inhuman or something? The South London Stamp Collector's League holds more excitement. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 03:13:55 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Scripts = Premies ARE stupid! Message: Premies are not intelligent enough to be able to introduce the materials themselves. I'm really sorry for the premies reading this, but this is basically what this means! Even your feelings and sincerity CANNOT be trusted! What does this means? for you intelligent persons? How dumb are you going to get? To the point to you're going to leave the whole thing, very likely, like I did when I got fed up of all these other idiots treating me like an idiot! Premiedom=path to idiocity, or idiotism? No bright light is going to come out of this. Only $ for Mr rawat. To elevate your soul, you NEED your OWN brain, your OWN heart and your OWN feelings! There is NO truth for you, and no true life of yours, without this and outside this. Now if you don't want any life of yours, surrender to the little lord rawat. That's an other option of course .... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 04:39:27 (EDT)
From: Barney Email: None To: All Subject: scripts, lies, and videotape Message: I checked out the Scripts and later found myself in the Aspirant Process (highly recommended! click here to link) and vicariously experienced all the excitement and bliss as when I received K. It has made me realize that I'm returning to the TRUE Path. Farewell to all on the forum. To borrow on the overused and passe - NOT One obvious observation is that the process is much more methodical then back in the good ol' days when it would take a day or two or a month like me. Nobody taking notes and taking attendance back then. It's difficult to say whether this is an improvement or not. I could argue either way. At least the techniques are, at this point, being taught in a consistent manner where you no longer get extra pressure by the Mahatma-Initiator-Instructor to induce more light. Can you say, 'optic nerves'? I guess my major objection to all of this is the zombie-like quality of the entire process. But no, get this! In my community of Springfield they would have: Really, MJ doesn't say that much different each time. The worst is when the videos come to town when he's just finished a tour. You see the first video and you've seen 'em all. His massage from country to country is pretty much the same and close to verbatim. Sheesh! I don't know what TM costs these days, but you can get initiated into it pretty easily and then you can go home and meditate and never have to deal with those freaks again. Simple! And you're a card carrying Guru follower or whatever. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 06:45:27 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Barney Subject: scripts, lies, and videotape Message: Go, Barney!!!!! ps: how did you do that beautiful red lettering in your post? it looks so good! (superficial but genuinely interested). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 13:25:54 (EDT)
From: Barney Email: None To: Judex Subject: embedded HTML Message: I'm using the embedded HTML commands within the message. In this case I'm using blah,blah You have to be very, very careful to correctly terminate the HTML command with the closing command which in this case is otherwise you can mess things up, maybe even beyond your post. Note: Some of the browsers may not support the name 'red' and need to have some HEX value. There is this help link on the forum that explains more about this and it is click here for Forum Help Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 11:14:20 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Barney Subject: scripts, lies, and videotape Message: That's a great movie. So is 'Being There' with Peter Sellers. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 06:11:13 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Gail Subject: scripts, lies, and videotape Message: Being There - yes, fine movie. What about Bladerunner? The Unbearable Lightness of Being The English Patient L.A. Confidential Come on, people - best movies of all time awards (BMOAT) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:17:48 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Judex Subject: scripts, lies, and videotape Message: Come on, people - best movies of all time awards (BMOAT) My BMOAT list changes as I change and grow. When I was a kid that list would include: Invasion Of The Body Snatchers Spartacus Ben-Hur The Thing (totally scared the shit out of me. And on a beat up old black and white TV that had a coat hanger for an antennae.) My list today would probably include more recent films I've seen: Good Will Hunting Fargo Disclosure Drugstore Cowboy Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:20:49 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Barney Subject: Barney.. and BRIAN Message: Barney, How do you make 'bullets' and red text like that? Brian, here's a small suggestion: Could there be an abridged HTML code reference on the actual posting page? Like over there ----> ? Just a thought. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 02:25:37 (EDT)
From: Barney Email: None To: Jim Subject: Barney.. and BRIAN Message: Bullets is the Menu done via Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 08:51:04 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Barney Subject: Barney.. and BRIAN Message: He means: Bullets is the Menu done via <Menu> <li>your stuff <li>your stuff </menu> The 'li' is an abbreviation for 'list item'. Shows up as: Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 12:45:35 (EDT)
From: Barney Email: None To: Brian Subject: Better Bullets (not a threat!) Message: Actually, there might even be a better way which is UL, un-ordered list:
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 06:14:02 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Video Scripts online Message: I agree. He'd have a lot more success if some of the old premies could do a full-on satsang. If I didn't have my old premie beau on hand to talk me through after my initial video event and set me straight on the road to devotion and indoctrination, I would have never gone back!! It is still SO stagnant. Going to a video event by yourself as an aspirant can be really wierd. No-one talks to you at all. Just smiles. And you're seeing the same people 2-3 times a week for 6 months and you never even learn their name. Ridiculous and un-natural I think. Cheers, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 07:09:04 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: TD Subject: TD - video scripts online Message: TD so true. SO TRUE! If anyone wants to know what it's like now, that's it. Your 'old' premie friend gives you all the 'juice' over coffee & mud cake afterwards, or in the car going there, without which you would never have a clue, nor would you want to go back... My image of that video program room is of a painting: imagine a darkened room containing row after row of wax-looking people staring at a screen in silhouette. Perhaps a suggestion of a huge face with neutral expression at which they all stare. Set it in a brilliant, starry galaxy. Call it 'Maharaji''s Museum'. Anyway, thank god TD you had the same experience. I started to wonder what was wrong with me when all I got was smiles, right through my aspirant process. The only people I ever spoke to then were the sick ones who weren't practicing! At least they would have a little chat! The others swept in and out as if riding a magic carpet, some straggled with the weight of the world about to crush them; others came singly with a smile, someone doing service perfected a flower; or the naughty ones caught up on all the goss in the back rows. That's where the real action took place, if you ask me! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 09:33:28 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Judex Subject: Judex - video scripts online Message: Loved your post - I've still got a big smile on my face as I reminisce of that strange and mystical time known as the Aspirant Process! You must have gone to some of those marathon video days where you had morning tea/lunch in between. You always felt as an aspirant that you should only talk about K while you were there - that to talk about the footy results over coffee would have been sacrilege and would have shown that you were not totally sincere in your thirst!! And after all, your attendance was being monitored! Remember how individual the video event experience was meant to be - that it was not a time 'for socialising'? My premie partner used to heighten that experience for me by never sitting next to me. How truly thoughtful and caring. Aaaaahhhhh! And remember how admirable those premies were, sitting there quietly practising while beautiful new-age music wafted by. Much more respectable than those noisy ones up the back! Thanks for the light relief... Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 06:40:45 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Brian Subject: Video Scripts online: feedback Message: Thanks Brian. It speaks for itself, doesn't it? I'd just like to add that as a result of this sort of instruction: when I was an early aspirant and regularly attending videos about 3 nights a week I asked a premie doing service: 'how long are you asked to practice each day?'. His response was to look worried and get a nearby instructor to speak to me. The instructor told me - wait for this - to write to Maharaji in Malibu to ask any further questions! Yes, I felt really good about knowledge that night. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 08:07:53 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Judex Subject: Video Scripts online: feedback Message: Ha ha ha ha, you were told to write to Maharaji in America to ask how long people practised for!!?? This trip is even more barmy than I thought. They're all at nutty as fruitcakes. Ha ha ha... Just how silly can it get!? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 11:23:07 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Judex Subject: Video Scripts online: feedback Message: His response was to look worried and get a nearby instructor to speak to me. The instructor told me - wait for this - to write to Maharaji in Malibu to ask any further questions! This is too funny!! That adults would behave this way! I was very surprised to read that the scripts insist that premies not talk about anything! And then warn against overloading the aspirants with too much information! Too very funny! Maharaji, you are one serious control freak! Get a life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:59:57 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Judex Subject: Video Scripts online: feedback Message: Judex, This is such a trip, your descriptions of the aspirant ordeal. I had no idea it had gotten so sterile! Thanks for the ''insider'' info. At least in '73 there was a little soul (Hindi) to it. This sounds so dry and univiting. Gerry Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 06:22:05 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Gerry Subject: old premies souls Message: Yes the 'old' premies were often quite wistful about those times. They will tell you a little bit - like how they used to dance or some silly story if you're lucky. I must share this with you guys; many of them really miss those who have left, too. They talk about you as though you are lost, missing in action. Eg they say you went to rebirthing, or new age groups, or something like that and never came back. I think they would love to find this Forum - just to know you are not all lost out in the void somewhere, but are well and good! What a reunion it could be. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 16:52:05 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: Judex Subject: Why don't they come back? Message: One of my favourite questions was why don't these people come back? Now I know. They didn't want to sit and listen to excerpts from MJ. They were sick of the cult master's evolutions. Did you know that when MJ does a program the excerpts are used again and again. I used to say to the co-ordinator, 'We've seen this before.' 'Oh, no, she would say. This section is from Toronto. That part is from Miami.' That's the only thing merging around this town. Spliced 'new' videos. Genius is 98% plagerism. The only thing MJ ever invented was himself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 02:49:22 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: Gail Subject: Why don't they come back? Message: Gail - such strong words, so good to read you! I agree - and I was quite proud to be able (after 2 full months on the Forum) to tell a few 'close' premies the truth about why I didn't want to go any more. I just said stuff like I didn't want to practice any more. I asked them if they knew some stuff like about the money, the abusers. Just a few quiet but well informed questions. We parted mutually trusting - I didn't try to 'sell' them anything and I think they heard my reasons. They also know about this Forum. Hope it doesnt get too crazy here - it turns people off to see lots of hostility and fighting and stuff. But I know that's what it's for. I suppose it's like the Magic Faraway Tree - it depends what day you read what you get! Lots of hugs to you Gail, you champ. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 20:17:16 (EDT)
From: canoga park Email: not ready yet To: HELP Subject: class action suit Message: last nigt for the first time I left a message about my frustration with the premmie fossilized emotions. After I got off the computer,I revisited my own life as a mother ,, bringing up four kids. It flashed on me that if the families of cigarette smokers could sue the tobacco companies for addictive relatives, then my teenagers sure have a ligitamate complaint against the big M for having a dysfuctional upbringing while I was under the 'anesthetic' This morning I waded back through the forum and read Help. I would like to say to Help--Let her talk , just let her talk about everthing teenage, which can be mostly her own exploration of the black, white and grays of life. Too much focus on the pitfalls os her mom's path may warp her sweet teenage year. To the organizers, I am feeling very vulnerable about this . please bear with me for not giving an email. 'For one thing this isnt my computer! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 21:35:38 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: canoga park Subject: class action suit Message: I have been anonymous for 6 months. I think you will find very little pressure here to ' reveal ' your identity. Most of us know and respect that there is risk involved, whether it be something we recognize or just something important and personal to YOU. I want to thank you for that advice about letting her talk. Those years are so hard on an adolescent, irregardless of cult involement. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 22:53:51 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Selena Subject: She's right Message: I think you will find very little pressure here to 'reveal' your identity. Selena's right. People's identities or email addresses are not required in order to post here. Make use of this forum to work your way out of the knots that have been tied, but you don't owe anyone here anything. Most of us know and respect that there is risk involved, whether it be something we recognize or just something important and personal to YOU. Selena's right AGAIN! [grin] There aren't any greater risks involved in posting here than there are in crossing the street. Far less, actually. But being skittish about revealing information about yourself is completely understandable. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 05:24:25 (EDT)
From: FW Email: None To: canoga park Subject: to: canoga park Message: I would like to say to Help--Let her talk , just let her talk about everthing teenage, which can be mostly her own exploration of the black, white and grays of life. Too much focus on the pitfalls os her mom's path may warp her sweet teenage year Thank you very much for your good advice!!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 09:16:19 (EDT)
From: canoga park Email: None To: FW Subject: to: canoga park Message: yup Return to Index -:- Top of Index |