Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 17

From: Jul 9, 1998

To: Jul 16, 1998

Page: 4 Of: 5



Jean-Michel -:- Indian Background: UPDATE -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 18:44:28 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Indian Background: UPDATE -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 23:28:19 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- Update your prints! -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 02:52:14 (EDT)
______seymour -:- Update your prints! -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 08:18:33 (EDT)

CD -:- Jims crusade -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:22:19 (EDT)
__Selena -:- Jims crusade is mine too -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:30:00 (EDT)
____Selena -:- stupid darn typos -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:37:26 (EDT)
____CD -:- Jims crusade is mine too -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:41:49 (EDT)
______selena -:- clever will do -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:44:53 (EDT)
____Barney -:- No, I'm Sparticus! -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:46:51 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Chris' fortunes -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:54:36 (EDT)
__Jean-Michel -:- Rawat's responsibility? -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 17:54:15 (EDT)
____red heart -:- whose responsibility? -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 23:37:05 (EDT)
__Richard -:- Your crusade -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 07:40:27 (EDT)

Jim -:- The Tallahassee Massacre -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:45:30 (EDT)
__Barney -:- probably a rumor... -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 17:06:31 (EDT)
____Jim -:- probably a rumor... -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 17:26:08 (EDT)
______Barney -:- probably a rumor... -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 18:09:19 (EDT)
________John Hammond-Smyth -:- probably a rumor... -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 22:05:36 (EDT)
______Brian -:- Are you nuts?? -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 23:02:28 (EDT)
__JW -:- The Tallahassee Massacre -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 13:21:13 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Yes, it was Gainesville -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:48:17 (EDT)

Passing thru -:- I'm baaack! -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 05:52:20 (EDT)
__Judex -:- I'm baaack! -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 06:56:24 (EDT)
__Jim -:- I'm baaack! -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 09:59:30 (EDT)
____Jim -:- And, also, PT... -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 10:17:06 (EDT)
______Passing thru -:- And, also, PT... -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 21:47:03 (EDT)
________bftb -:- And, also, PT... -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 22:11:26 (EDT)
__________bftb -:- And, also, PT... -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 12:15:51 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Ha! You argue like a woman -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 22:31:37 (EDT)
__________Passing thru -:- Show me yours -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 09:46:04 (EDT)
________John Hammond-Smyth -:- Fools, the lot of them -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 22:36:10 (EDT)
__________Passing thru -:- Accuracy please! -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 10:07:39 (EDT)
____________Gail -:- Accuracy please! -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 10:21:26 (EDT)
______________Passing thru -:- Accuracy please! -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 08:46:37 (EDT)
________________jethro -:- Accuracy please! -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:18:32 (EDT)
____________Katie -:- Hymns -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 11:23:39 (EDT)
______________Katie -:- PS to PT -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 11:26:05 (EDT)
______________Passing thru -:- Hymns -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 08:53:10 (EDT)
________________Richard -:- Onward Christian Soldiers... -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 11:26:24 (EDT)
____________jethro -:- the superior power IN PERSON -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 11:44:12 (EDT)
______________G's mom -:- the superior power IN PERSON -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 12:27:11 (EDT)
________________Passing thru -:- G's mom -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:29:12 (EDT)
__________________g's mom -:- We agree there (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:38:07 (EDT)
____________________g's mom -:- We agree there (more) -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:55:23 (EDT)
______________Passing thru -:- the superior power IN PERSON -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:07:19 (EDT)
________________jethro -:- the superior power IN PERSON -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:15:05 (EDT)
____________seymour -:- Accuracy please! -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 12:26:03 (EDT)
______________Passsing thru -:- Accuracy please! -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:35:45 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- That's not an answer -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 16:16:44 (EDT)
____________JW -:- Accuracy please! -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:30:28 (EDT)
______________Victoria -:- Accuracy please! -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 03:07:52 (EDT)
________________Passing thru -:- Victoria -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 10:20:06 (EDT)
__________________Victoria -:- I wasn't looking for anything -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:52:54 (EDT)
______________Passing thru -:- Accuracy please! -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 10:12:11 (EDT)
________________JW -:- PT is and Idiot -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:10:32 (EDT)
__________________Passing thru -:- PT is and Idiot Savant -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:36:37 (EDT)
____________________JW -:- PT is and Idiot Savant -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:31:34 (EDT)
______________________Gerry -:- PT is a boring Idiot -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:14:24 (EDT)
________________________bftb -:- PT is a boring Idiot -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:29:39 (EDT)
____________________Jim -:- Here's where you're wrong -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 16:24:11 (EDT)
______________________bftb -:- Here's where you're wrong -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 16:50:51 (EDT)
________________________Jim -:- Here's where you're wrong -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:01:34 (EDT)

FW -:- Help! -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 05:10:56 (EDT)
__seymour -:- Help! -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 06:55:24 (EDT)
__Brian -:- Help! -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 12:22:34 (EDT)
__CD -:- Love your kids -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 15:55:05 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Maharaji on maternal love -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:07:58 (EDT)
____Free Woman (FW) -:- Love your kids -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 19:09:54 (EDT)
__Selena -:- Help! -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:12:13 (EDT)
____JW -:- Help! -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 13:08:36 (EDT)
__canoga park -:- Help! -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 20:27:16 (EDT)
____x -:- Help! -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 23:17:07 (EDT)
______FW -:- to 'x' -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 05:49:33 (EDT)
____FW -:- to: canoga park re: help! -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 05:41:04 (EDT)
__TD -:- Help! And M's Parental Advice -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 05:59:26 (EDT)
____FW -:- Help! And M's Parental Advice -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 06:15:57 (EDT)

TD -:- Institutionalised Premies -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 02:48:14 (EDT)
__Runamok -:- Institutionalised Premies -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 03:12:15 (EDT)
__david f. -:- Institutionalised Premies -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 04:04:13 (EDT)
__Gail -:- Institutionalised Premies -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 10:32:52 (EDT)
____voice of sanity -:- these people -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 13:22:55 (EDT)
______Mahatma Excreteanand -:- The Stench of BS -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:04:01 (EDT)
______Peter -:- voice of M -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:04:47 (EDT)
________Magdeline -:- voice of M -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 15:09:38 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- voice of M -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 15:19:39 (EDT)
____________CD -:- simple wisdom -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 15:24:19 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- simple wisdom -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 15:58:23 (EDT)
________________CD -:- simple wisdom -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:07:55 (EDT)
__________________Jim -:- simpleton -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:14:33 (EDT)
____________________Barney -:- Different Strokes... -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:34:38 (EDT)
______JW -:- voice of programming -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:08:47 (EDT)
________CD -:- different views -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:43:12 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- different views -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:52:52 (EDT)
____________CD -:- evidence and work -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 15:07:48 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- Hey, now you're talking!! -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 15:16:49 (EDT)
__________Jerry -:- different views -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 22:22:16 (EDT)
______Jerry -:- these people -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 21:50:14 (EDT)
______Gail -:- Listen to this voice of sanity -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 01:46:53 (EDT)
__RT -:- Institutionalised Premies -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 11:22:50 (EDT)
____TD -:- Institutionalised Premies -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 20:15:34 (EDT)
__Mark -:- Institutionalised Premies -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 12:31:59 (EDT)
____TD -:- Institutionalised Premies -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 04:41:42 (EDT)
__red heart -:- self-righteous missionaries -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 13:13:17 (EDT)
____JW -:- self-righteous hypocrite -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 13:17:57 (EDT)
______bftb -:- self-righteous hypocrite -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:36:06 (EDT)
____Rick -:- Red Fart is back -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:05:53 (EDT)
____Jim -:- PYMWYMI, Red Heart -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:27:44 (EDT)
____TD -:- self-righteous missionaries -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 04:23:57 (EDT)
__JW -:- Institutionalised Premies -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 13:29:45 (EDT)
____TD -:- Institutionalised Premies -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 05:08:33 (EDT)

Sir David -:- Massive UFO activity in UK -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 00:01:05 (EDT)
__RT -:- Massive UFO activity in UK -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 00:04:51 (EDT)
__bftb -:- Massive UFO activity in UK -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 12:50:26 (EDT)
____Judex -:- Massive UFO activity in UK -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 13:33:56 (EDT)
__pam -:- Massive UFO activity in UK -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:50:12 (EDT)

Jim -:- Little drops of mercy -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 20:59:41 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Satguru has come! -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 16:08:09 (EDT)
__JW -:- Satguru has come! -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 16:30:03 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- Satguru has come: FILM -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 16:34:23 (EDT)
______Larry Flint -:- Satguru has come: FILM -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:07:49 (EDT)
________Jean-Michel -:- deal! -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 18:02:26 (EDT)
__________Jean-Michel -:- RAWAT!!!!!! -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 18:11:24 (EDT)
____________Larry Flynt -:- RAWAT!!!!!! -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 18:31:05 (EDT)
______________Jean-Michel -:- RAWAT!!!!!!: 10% -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 18:49:29 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- RAWAT!!!!!!: 10% -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 20:01:29 (EDT)
__________________Jean-Michel -:- No bedroom shots! -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 02:59:28 (EDT)
__Bobby -:- Satguru has come! -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 19:34:41 (EDT)

KK -:- MAHATMAS -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 10:40:54 (EDT)
__Mel Bourne -:- MAHATMAS -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 11:04:50 (EDT)
____KK -:- MAHATMAS -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 13:45:56 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Are we in a comic book? -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 13:55:43 (EDT)
________KK -:- Are we in a comic book? -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 14:05:39 (EDT)
__Jerry -:- MAHATMAS -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 11:09:41 (EDT)
__Sir David -:- MAHATMAS -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 11:43:21 (EDT)
____Gail -:- MAHATMAS -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 12:55:25 (EDT)
______eb -:- MAHATMAS -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 13:02:45 (EDT)
______RT -:- R quotes -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 13:22:14 (EDT)
______Selena -:- Adaranandji -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 13:56:53 (EDT)
__JW -:- MAHATMAS -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 14:19:02 (EDT)
____KK -:- MAHATMAS -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 14:36:18 (EDT)
______Gail -:- MAHATMAS -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 14:55:11 (EDT)
______JW -:- MAHATMAS -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 15:01:21 (EDT)
________Rick -:- Yes on Ira -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 16:58:11 (EDT)
__________Judex -:- Yes on Ira -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 05:51:34 (EDT)
____Gail -:- MAHATMAS -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 14:50:42 (EDT)
______Jim -:- No! Really?? -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 15:11:55 (EDT)
________Gail -:- Scripts -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 15:40:31 (EDT)
__________JW -:- Scripts -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 16:42:19 (EDT)
____________Gail -:- Premies are slow to read -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 17:27:35 (EDT)
______________JW -:- Premies are slow to read -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 18:50:07 (EDT)
________________Gail -:- Premies are fed up (long) -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 20:14:44 (EDT)
__________________g's mom -:- Premies are fed up (long) -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 22:45:09 (EDT)
__________________Jean-Michel -:- Rich premies won't stay either -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 23:09:27 (EDT)
____________________Judex -:- Rich premies won't stay either -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 06:54:05 (EDT)
______________________Runamok -:- Rich premies won't stay either -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:46:04 (EDT)
________________________Judex -:- Rich premies won't stay either -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 18:34:20 (EDT)
__________________Jean-Michel -:- Procedures, Gail? -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 06:34:04 (EDT)
____________________Gail -:- Procedures, Gail? -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 10:35:46 (EDT)
______________x -:- Premies are slow -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 18:58:48 (EDT)
________________RT -:- Premies are slow -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 10:31:04 (EDT)
______________Judex -:- Premies are slow to read -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 05:53:40 (EDT)
__Scott T. -:- MAHATMAS -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 20:26:30 (EDT)
__g's mom -:- MAHATMAS -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 22:55:57 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- FEAR & K SESSION -:- Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 23:04:23 (EDT)
______g's mom -:- off with the heads -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 00:24:01 (EDT)
______TD -:- FEAR & K SESSION -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 01:00:52 (EDT)
________Judex -:- to TD -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 05:33:48 (EDT)
__________TD -:- to TD -:- Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 19:57:14 (EDT)
__Victoria -:- MAHATMAS -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:51:44 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Hi Victoria -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 23:09:59 (EDT)
______Victoria -:- Hi Victoria -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:12:24 (EDT)
________Victoria -:- more -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:35:37 (EDT)
__________x -:- Gurucharanand was not celibate -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 07:39:16 (EDT)


Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 18:44:28 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Indian Background: UPDATE
Message:
Don't forget to pay a visit to

DLM/EV's Indian Background

The whole stuff has been indexed (thank's to some exes' service)
and a few details added.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 23:28:19 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Indian Background: UPDATE
Message:
JM,

The site's looking really good already. I've already visited it 356 times since July 1st. I wonder if anyone else has seen it yet? Is there any way of knowing?
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 02:52:14 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Update your prints!
Message:
I've visited the site quite a lot myself to check and to increase the counter!
I know some exes (p & aspirants) have already printed and circulated the Indian story.
Pleeeeeeeese: update your prints!
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 08:18:33 (EDT)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Update your prints!
Message:
A worthy web site
Well done Jean-Michel
Keep up the good work
Seymour
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:22:19 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jims crusade
Message:
In this quote taken from a recent post on this forum, Jim speaks out quite clearly about his anti-M crusade:

'Fuck you, you snivelling little frozen-smiled happy face. Fuck you and the fat little guru you rode in on. Chris, I LOVE watching your guru's trip fall down around you. Don't you? Look, you're obviously posting here to try to counter the stream of criticism and bad publicity Maharaji gets here. Do you think your posts accomplish that? Is that what you think?'
-------------------------

I post here because there is a side to the story of people who benefit from their association with M and what is taught.

There is obviously disagreement about the value of the Knowledge and wether peace really exists at the fundamental core of a human being.

Regards,
CD - Chris Dickey
I prefer a natural smile!
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:30:00 (EDT)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Jims crusade is mine too
Message:
Message:
There is obviously disagreement about the value of the Knowledge and wether peace really exists at the fundamental core of a human being.


I have yet to see anyone here take a stand that peace does NOT exist at the fundamental core of a human being. Peach AND knowledge ( not the lack of the proprietay capital K) are never denied. Actually most of the people here are very intelligent and aware and INTO knowlege as it is defined by most humans, whether it's M's definition or not.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:37:26 (EDT)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Selena premie misfit
Subject: stupid darn typos
Message:
we don't deny any peaches or peace! Unless they are the tons and tons of rotting peaches we are supposeed to be suffering from - oops that was vegies.
Never could get that premie stuff right.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:41:49 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Jims crusade is mine too
Message:
I know its your crusade.

>I have yet to see anyone here take a stand that peace does NOT exist at the fundamental core of a human being.

You apparently don't know some of Jim's fundamental theories on rationalism.

>Actually most of the people here are very intelligent and aware ...

I consider the people on this forum to be intelligent and clever.

CD
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:44:53 (EDT)
From: selena
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: clever will do
Message:
I consider the people on this forum to be intelligent and clever.

That'll do. We probably don't have the same definition of 'aware' anyway
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:46:51 (EDT)
From: Barney
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: No, I'm Sparticus!
Message:
I really like this CD guy and his Crusade.

We need to open another front. We've just about got him on the run.

My Artificial-Intelligence Neural Unscrambling System (ANUS) is predicting that we will crack the code and break him within another 1.0323+99 posts.

Victory will be ours and he will be sending us his tithe!

God is with us! The heathens will $$$pay$$$!
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:54:36 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Barney
Subject: Chris' fortunes
Message:
Yes, I, too, yearn to break the code on Chris' bank account. Since he knows so much about mine I figure I'm entitled to a bit of a look at least, you know?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 17:54:15 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Rawat's responsibility?
Message:
What is Mr Rawat teaching?

He's the manager of an organisation. Everyone agrees?

His main assistants molest children, abuse adults.
He HAS BEEN informed.
He does NOTHING.
This is NOT hearsay. I know people who've had that kind of benefits!

Facts speak for themselves.

I join the crusade.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 23:37:05 (EDT)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: whose responsibility?
Message:
i don't know the whole story about any of these accusations, but i will tell you this, that no matter who it was, if someone molested my child I would report him/her to the authorities, and i wouldn't wait to get ANYbody's permission or approval. where were the parents of these children? why wait for someone you see as a figurehead to play policeman? there are real police and real laws and real courts that deal with that sort of thing. i'm sorry, but i don't take being 'influenced' as any excuse for any parent to 'look away' when children are being hurt in any way.

to me, every adult who is directly aware (and not just from hearsay) of any such situation who does not act to both protect the child(ren) and stop the assailant is pathetic. there is no excuse for such abuse via neglect.

I swear, sometimes I get the feeling that some people just will join anything to have an excuse not to feel or think for themselves -- even when the teacher is telling them to think and feel for themselves (as Maharaji so often does). It's not the teacher's responsibility. It is each individual. Each individual responsible for their own actions. And a parent's duty to protect their child. If they don't, they don't deserve to even be called a parent, nor to have the legal rights as parent and guardian.

premie red heart
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 07:40:27 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Your crusade
Message:
CD,

First of all you say;

I post here because there is a side to the story of people who benefit from their association with M and what is taught.

but your posts are rambling generalisations which fail miserably to make any valid association between these 'benefits' and Maharaji or what he teaches.

Then you say;

There is obviously disagreement about the value of the Knowledge and wether peace really exists at the fundamental core of a human being.

which wins you first prize in this years Statement of the Obvious contest but gets no points for originality. What is your point CD? Do you have one?

regards

Richard
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:45:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Tallahassee Massacre
Message:
While we're talking about 'bongo' premies, does anyone know the details of the shooting in the Tallahassee ashram? (Hey, maybe it wasn't even there. Maybe it was Lauterdale. I'm not sure). Here's all I know:

a 'brother' took a shotgun to the girl's ashram in the early 70s and shot three or four women. One died, one might have been left paraplyzed and at least one more was seriously wounded. (I think one of the wounded was pointed out to me as they rolled her into a program a few years later). The guy reported that Maharaji had given him 'inner agya' to do it. Shortly after, but without any direct reference to this incident, Maharaji sent out a short letter explaining that 'inner agya' wasn't real.

Anyone there in the community at the time? What was this guy like beforehand? What, if any, support did Maharaji give the community when it happened? Did he communicate with the premies there in any shape or fashion? What'd he say. And what's happened to the guy and the girls since then?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 17:06:31 (EDT)
From: Barney
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: probably a rumor...
Message:
This probably not true, but I recall that it circulated through the rumor grapevine in my community.

But it went something like this was their destiny or some kind of karma crap.

Obviously it was their destiny because that's what happened to them. Nevertheless, it was sick and tragic.

And as a good premie I bought it, but really didn't like it and felt that it was disturbing.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 17:26:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Barney
Subject: probably a rumor...
Message:
Barney,

Where were you and what do you actually recall happened? Chris, do you remember?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 18:09:19 (EDT)
From: Barney
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: probably a rumor...
Message:
oh, let's just say I was in a major community somewhere between the two coasts.

I don't recall any of the details really, just the disturbing quality of the message. What I heard was just premie talk at a low level. No big wheels involved.

Who knows, the way the grapevine can distort things you'd think that the Houston Astrodome was gonna shuttle 144,000 good souls off to heaven.

All we've got is some dead people and a suspect who claims his neighbor's DOG is telling him what to do.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 22:05:36 (EDT)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: padded.cell@asylum.com
To: Followers of karmic law
Subject: probably a rumor...
Message:
Of course it was their karma, just like it was the karma of six million jews plus many other ethnic minorities and mentally and physically disabled people to die horrible and frightening deaths at the hands of the Nazis.
Which of course never happened.
Just as it was the sixteen children's karma up in Scotland when they were all shot dead in school one morning a couple of years ago. I mean it makes sense doesn't it, this karma thing. And what about the person who does the killing? Since he is carrying out the karmic law like an angel of death, that must mean that he's exempt from any karmic backlash. Which would surely mean that any pain we inflict upon others is simply their karma and they only have themselves to blame for creating that karma and we can go on hurting them and making them suffer because since it's happening to them it must be their destiny so we must be right in inflicting the punishment.
And this means that the one who is doing the torturing and the murdering is the one who is in the right and performing a selfless act and will ultimately receive his reward for his good actions.
Like I said, this karma thing makes a lot of sense.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 23:02:28 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jim
Subject: Are you nuts??
Message:
Chris, do you remember?

Waddaya doing, Jim?? You're asking for content here ya know...

It would go something like this:

I've been to Florida many times to hear M speak.
It's pretty nice there.

I usually take my guitar, but sometimes I don't.

BTW, my girlfriend likes it there too![g]

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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 13:21:13 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Tallahassee Massacre
Message:
Jim,

I recall this incident well. It really did happen, although I thought it was in Gainseville and not Tallahassee, and I don't know if it was an ashram or a premie house. I think it was in 1974, maybe 1975 when it happened. Anyway, it's true that the guy who committed the murder did tell the police that had agya from Guru Maharaj Ji do it and that the BM spoke to him 'internally.' This guy was obviously nuts, but the idea of inner agya is not too unusual, shit, David Smith was basically telling me he had inner agya to terrorize and abuse ashram premies in 1981!

Anyhow, I don't recall an actual letter from M about his, but I DO recall that the community coordinators and mahatmas were all contacted and told to emphasize to all the premies that BM did NOT (at least anymore?) give 'inner agya.'

Also, Jim, I think the families of the victims sued DLM and I recall there was a settlement of some unknown amount.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:48:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Yes, it was Gainesville
Message:
Joe,

Thanks for the info. I'm pretty sure there was a letter. Doesn't anyone else remember it? A terse one-liner -- Maharaji just expressly stating that there is no such thing as inner agya. Just like the letter he sent out when the family split up. Hey does anyone have either of these?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 05:52:20 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm baaack!
Message:
Hey Jim,
Have you got a good quote for me? Perhaps you'd like to clear up Help''s misunderstanding of the Mahabarata quote.
And what does IMHO mean?
Regards
PT
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 06:56:24 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: I'm baaack!
Message:
And what does IMHO mean?

Pt I can fill you in on that. It means in my honest opinion.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 09:59:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: I'm baaack!
Message:
PT,

It means 'in my humble opinion' and I DO have a post I sent you last Sunday. It's this:

'PT,
What do you think about Holocaust deniers (or 'revisionists' or whatever you want to call them)? Are you familiar much with their ... ahem, 'arguments'? That is, do you know HOW they explain themselves? HOW they 'argue' that the Holocaust didn't really happen?

How about flat-earthers? Or people that claim man never landed on the moon? Have you ever read any interviews or tracts put out by these guys?

For an excellent discussion of people who, like yourself, maintain untenable beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary -- like you -- take a look at Michael Shermer's Why People Believe Weird Things. If you can't see yourself in those pages, I'd be interested hearing why.'
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 10:17:06 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And, also, PT...
Message:
PT,

Since you were gone, we've heard from KK. You should check out his psots, starting in the inacitve lists with a post or so in the 'Linda Gross' thread. Here's what I want to ask you, PT. KK explains that Padarthanand was notorious for sexually assaulting premies and had, in fact, even so assulted him once. KK explains further that he actually reported this to Maharaji but that, as far as he could tell, nothing was done. When KK wanted to leave Maharaji and wanted some money, Maharaji gave it to him. Padarthanand still tours as Maharaji's representative.

What do you think of all that?

The only premie who's even generally commented on this yet has been Chris who complains that the 'evidence is sloppy'. What do you think? Do YOU think the evidence is 'sloppy'? What kind of details would you expect someone like KK to have to back up his story? Assuming you could accept his story, even if for only argument's sake, what would that say about Maharaji?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 21:47:03 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And, also, PT...
Message:
Dear Jim,
It's not a matter whether the evidence is sloppy or not as that it didn't happen to me. I can only comment with confidence on what I have experienced and I have experienced nothing but the greatest kindness and respect from Padarthanand
On the matter of mistaken belief, I love what practicing Knowledge does for me. There is no doubt in 25 years premies have said some outrageously stupid stuff but that doesn't effect the simple fact that practicing Knowledge works for me. After all, Knowledge has been given to tens of thousands of people, so you got to expect and accept that there will be plenty of nutters amongst them. Premies, non premies or exes, I don't believe everything I'm told
And here are two quotes for you. I tried to go back as far as possible so you cannot claim revisionism.

An article titled 'Boy Guru' from Newsweek 8/2/1971.

'.... did that mean, asked one disciple, that they should call him God.
'I am a human-hands, bones,lungs,' the boy responded,' but Guru is greater than God, because if you go to Guru, Guru will show you God'.

And from a TV interview in Australia in September 1972.

TV Reporter:'How would you describe yourself, as a prophet, or a son of god or what?'
Maharaji:'A perfect master'.
Reporter:'That's an ambiguous reply'.
Maharaji:'One who teaches you physics, you call him a physics master, right. One who teaches you mathematics, you call him a maths master. One who teaches you perfectness, you call him a perfect master. I can teach people perfectness'.

So, not God and not perfect.Some fools may have claimed otherwise but Maharaji hasn't.
PT
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 22:11:26 (EDT)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: And, also, PT...
Message:
Excuse me for butting in but now even I'm curious.I have no idea about these allegations so basically I'm just interested in this from a 'what if' perspective.

How about thinking of the question like this:Forget sloppy evidence,pretend for a moment that this is not hypothetical but comes to be proven as fact.And forget about K for a minute,this has nothing to do with K or the already understood fact that you benefit from it.

If KK's story is true,how do you feel about it and does it impact your perception of M/EV at all?

Also forget about the fact that it didn't happen to you.The alleged harassment of Anita Hill didn't happen to me either,but that doesn't mean that I can't have an opinion about it,even if Clarence Thomas had never been anything but gracious in my presence.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 12:15:51 (EDT)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: PT
Subject: And, also, PT...
Message:
PT,
I find it telling that you've seemingly chosen to ignore my very simple question to you.

Have you any intention of answering?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 22:31:37 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Ha! You argue like a woman
Message:
I once knew, PT. Poor thing, she was unable to appreciate that just because she had said ' not x' once before, it didn't mean she had never said 'x' earlier too. How silly, huh? Yeah, I know. But that's exactly what you're doing here:

So, not God and not perfect.Some fools may have claimed otherwise but Maharaji hasn't.

We all know Maharaji liked to be coy or sometimes even humble sounding -- at times. Only at times, PT. And I've already given you tons of proof that he had his other moments too. Lots of them. Lots of times he claimed he was God, perfect, you name it, he claimed it. No, PT, that's a done deal. You've lost that issue, fair and square. Now is there something else you'd like to talk about?

I really would like to know how what you think of holocaust revisionists? You know, the guys that say there isn't enough proof that the holocaust took place? Show them some proof, then come up with some wild speculation, based on nothing but their own desparate wishful thinking, to show that that bit of evidence just MAY have been docotored or just MAY lend itself to some out-there vague interpretation, and, guess what? Yeah, they don't have to deal with the evidence anymore and they laugh like dunces.
'Come on', they cajole, 'give it to me! Give me your evidence of a holocaust because, right now, I've got to tell you, I don't see ANYTHING that even remotely persuades me!' You know the type. Everyone outside of their own fucked-up little group appreciated the evidence for what it was fifty years ago. But these guys won't ever be satisfied. They've decided that.

So what do you think about them, huh?

On another point, you say:

I can only comment with confidence on what I have experienced

I say that's simply not true. In fact, it shows how desparate you are to pull up your drawbridge on the world around you, especially those areas where you don't like what you see. PT, you can and do comment on all sorts of sorts of things that happen to others, by others and outside of your direct experience. Your kid comes home all bloody and says the Thompson boy and eight of his friends beat the shit out of him. You're not going to say, 'Sorry, son, I wasn't there. Besides, it's not my problem now, is it?'

And that's just one of a million examples of ways in which you, like anyone, connects to the world around you a little more fully than you let on. What's with you anyways? Trying to bullshit everyone. That's not very nice you know.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 09:46:04 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Show me yours
Message:
Dear Jim,
I've provided the quotes that support my argument, could you just one quote that supports your's.
As for my desire for evidence before judgement,surely a lawyer should be familiar with the concept.Just because you are happy to comment about things you know nothing about, doesn't mean it's a weakness that others won't.
PT
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 22:36:10 (EDT)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: straight.jacket@asylum.com
To: Passing thru
Subject: Fools, the lot of them
Message:
You're right PT. There have been some real fools who have claimed that Maharaji was God and perfect. Remember all those Mahatmas? What a load of fools they were, telling us that the Lord of the Universe had come.

And what about that close devotee of Maharaji, that initiator called Rich Neal who even sang the song beginning, 'Maharaji you are the Lord, you've shown us by your word'. Well what a fool HE was to have made up a song like that! And what about all those stupid premies who used to sing along with him in front of Maharaji at festivals? God, what utter fools THEY were! I bet you weren't one of them. You must have kept your trap shut and stared at the ground. Maybe even practised the music technique so that you couldn't hear the words of the song.

And what about those fools who used to sing arti in the ashram, then. They must have all been bongos singing words like, 'Jai Guru Dev Maharaji, your glory fills the world'. Yes, blind fools, all of them.

Of course, YOU are not a fool are you.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 10:07:39 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Accuracy please!
Message:
Dear John,
Rich Neal singing 'You are the Lord' is entirely different and completely unrelated to the point I was discussing with Jim. Which was Jim's absurd claim that Maharaji has said 'I am God' and 'I am perfect'. This sort of sloppy, self serving logic appears all to often on this site. Does anyone here believe the ancient Indian hymn 'Arti' is supposed to be taken literally?
PT
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 10:21:26 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Accuracy please!
Message:
I did! No one told me this was a vocal exercise. The extra verse MJ wrote goes something like this.

Meditation begins in the form of our master.
Adoration begins at the feet of our lord.
Liberation begins in the words of our master.
I bow down before such a wonderful lord.

If he was only a meditation teacher, why was everyone taught to do full PRANAM (BOWING AND SCRAPING). Didn't he know what the term 'LORD' meant in this neck of the woods?
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 08:46:37 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Accuracy please!
Message:
Dear Gail,
People weren't taught to pranam. Some people did it and others didn't. Bowing to a teacher is common in many Asian countries and India, if you don't like it, don't do it. As for the term 'LORD', it is a title of respect all over the world.The English parliament has a house full of them. It's just one of many of the trappings that came from Inida that Maharaji left behind years ago. Perhaps you should too.
PT
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:18:32 (EDT)
From: jethro
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Accuracy please!
Message:
'People weren't taught to pranam. Some people did it and others didn't.'

ye that's right....about 99.99999% did it.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 11:23:39 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Hymns
Message:
Dear PT,
You wrote
Does anyone here believe the ancient Indian hymn 'Arti' is supposed to be taken literally?

I did! I was 16 when I got knowledge, and no one told me it was supposed to be metaphorical or whatever. I think the other premies that I knew, many who were older than me, also belived it was meant to be taken literally. WHY was it made such an important part of following M if we weren't supposed to give any credence to it? Why did we sing it every morning and every evening?

Also, I think VP has already pointed this out, but I was raised as a Christian and learned many Christian hymns and we were derinitely taught to take those hymns literally. If people in India didn't take hyms literally, it might have been kind to have explained that to us ex-Christians.

Katie
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 11:26:05 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: PT
Subject: PS to PT
Message:
dear PT -
John Hammond-Smythe is a joke (literally), and shouldn't be taken seriously. Just so you know.

Katie
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 08:53:10 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Hymns
Message:
Dear Katie,
'Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
with the cross of Jesus going on before'
Did you really believe you were marching with a cross as you sang this. I hope not.
If you did, Maharaji is not the cause of your literalness, you brought it with you and applied it to him.
PT
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 11:26:24 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Onward Christian Soldiers...
Message:
Weeeell now PT, the crusaders did, and the English colonists who killed the heathen Native American and the Catholic Missionaries who killed the native Africans.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 11:44:12 (EDT)
From: jethro
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: the superior power IN PERSON
Message:
'Does anyone here believe the ancient Indian hymn 'Arti' is supposed to be taken literally?'
I think the person who updated Artie with the following verses does(prem pal rowatt).
Perhaps you could exlain how it was not to be taken literally?

'Meditation begins in the form of our master,
Adoration begins at the feet of our lord
concentration begins in the words of our master
liberation begins in the grace of our lord

the lord is the maker of all things created
he keeps them and brings them all home to his word
the lord is the superior power in person
I bow down before such a wonderful lord'
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 12:27:11 (EDT)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: PT
Subject: the superior power IN PERSON
Message:
Yes, I do think that they were meant to be taken literally. Why would you prostrate yourself to him or in lieu of him his picture, after you sang the song. But normally I find it pretty pointless to argue anything with a premie. It is absolutely ridiculous to even argue this. Mr. Rawat presented himself as lord and allowed people to treat him as such. To argue it is somewhat akin to arguing that Bill Clinton doesn't REALLY think he is the commander in Chief, people are making it up, a big misunderstanding that he is President. ( some of us wish)
That is how it was, but there will always be some fool who will argue any fact with you. It is a waste of time to discuss this.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:29:12 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: G's mom
Message:
Dear G's mom,
It's a song. It's about imagery.
If you took it literally, you were very foolish indeed.
PT
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:38:07 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: We agree there (nt)
Message:
no text
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:55:23 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: pt
Subject: We agree there (more)
Message:
I agree I was foolish. But it seems that I was in the majority who did take it literally. Sad we could not be all so wise as you and know despite all the pranams, prashad and bs that it was meant to be merely a song. Too bad really, I wish you could have been in my community and at satsang you could have gotten up and enlightened us before Arti that it was JUST A SONG and had your ass hauled off the stage and been lectured about being in your mind. But you would have been right. It is just a song and Rawat is just a man.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:07:19 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: jethro
Subject: the superior power IN PERSON
Message:
Dear Jethro,
If it described your experience, you can take it literally. But if it doesn't describe your experience, then for you, it must be a theory.Someone else's words describing someone else's experience, for you to accept or reject.The choice is always yours.
PT
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:15:05 (EDT)
From: jethro
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: the superior power IN PERSON
Message:
Thanks for not replyingto mu question.

I can only presume you can't give me the ineterpretation of the verses prempal added.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 12:26:03 (EDT)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Accuracy please!
Message:
I'm afraid I have to own up to taking it literally. After many years of scepticism I finally succumbed and became a devotee.
It felt great but did not last.
If you do not take it literally how do you interpret it?
Seymour.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:35:45 (EDT)
From: Passsing thru
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: Accuracy please!
Message:
Dear Seymour,
It's a song. It's just an expression of someone's feelings, you either sympathise with it or you don't.
PT
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 16:16:44 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passsing thru
Subject: That's not an answer
Message:
It's a song. It's just an expression of someone's feelings, you either sympathise with it or you don't.

You're just avoiding the question, PT. The question was how do you interpret those words, not do you think the words were meant to be taken literally. Now why don't you just answer the question?

Also, while we're at it, I've asked you a couple of times how you felt about holocaust deniers and the funny way they deal with the OVERWHELMING evidence for that ugly chapter in history. Well?
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:30:28 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Accuracy please!
Message:
Does anyone here believe the ancient Indian hymn 'Arti' is supposed to be taken literally?

Absolutely. Every premie I knew did. Why on earth would M have us sing it to him it he didn't think it was literal? And don't you think he had an obligation to tell us it wasn't literal?

And as I mentioned before, I think some of Jim's quotes, to which you have not responded do indicate that BM claimed to be god, and moreoever, he raised not one chubby finger to dissuade our beliefs that he was god, allowing, without comment, to to called, lord of the universe, superior power in person, perfect master, satguru, 'he is lila and his game has just begun,' etc., etc.,

You really can't be THAT deluded to not see this!
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 03:07:52 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: PT and JW
Subject: Accuracy please!
Message:
Yes, I took it literally and every premie I knew not only took it literally but spoke endlessly about it...not to mention most of the aspirants, who also believed it whole-heartedly.

Is Maharaji trying to back out on this claim?

I've heard that crack cocaine and heroin cause blissfull experiences, but I never wanted to try them. You know, the 'try it, you'll like it' line of persuasion that was used just didn't appeal to me.

I believe that the experience was blissful because we thought he was God incarnate. I mean, how lucky can you get? God on earth and we get to serve him.

Does anybody remember when they were drumming up donations for the airplane and M said at the program...'You better believe that Jesus's devotees got him the best darn donkey they could find!' ... or something to that effect?

Victoria
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 10:20:06 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Victoria
Message:
Dear Victoria,
If you believe everything you hear without discrimination, you've got no one to blame but yourself. It's a pity you didn't believe Maharaji when he said 'What you are looking for is inside you'
PT
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:52:54 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: I wasn't looking for anything
Message:
When I first met the premies, I thought that some of them were okay, but I didn't want to hear about the guru. Since some of my room-mates were hanging out with premies, I couldn't really get away from them (could not afford to move out) so I just asked them not to talk to me about their guru.

What you are looking for is inside you

I wasn't looking for anything, PT. I was just fine, just the way I was. So how come, within a few short months, I was surrendering the reins to my life to the guy I had been led to believe was the Lord of the Universe...

Intense indoctrination ... or stupid misunderstanding on my part? I mean, Maharaji said go to satsang every day. At satsang they sang arti every day. I'm not stupid, PT. I think you are the one who didn't understand Maharaji's message.

Remember this one?

Not a leaf moves on a tree without his willing it

or something like that. Sounds like god to me...

Victoria
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 10:12:11 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Accuracy please!
Message:
Dear JW,
One of the great advantages of Knowledge is that it an internal experience that doesn't need words.
At best, words are an expression of the speaker's opinions or feelings.
In addition, the quotes you mention come from India were such effusive claims are common and acceptable.
'Lord of the Universe' is an Indian honorific and obviously cannot be taken literally.
'Superior power in person' is a common attribute of the Guru.
Please see the quotes I posted to Jim that clearly show Maharaji's position on 'Perfect master' as described by Maharaji in the 1971 Newsweek article as 'a master who teaches perfection'.
'Satguru' common in India means 'true guru'.
And 'His lila etc', is a piece of poetic imagery in a song that was written by Rich Neal and is, presumably, his opinion.
It isn't possible for Maharaji to be responsible for the claims or behaviour of everyone who has Knowledge.
He has done his best to eliminate everything but his core message which remains the same 'What you are looking for is inside of you'.
All else is, in comparison, irrelevant.
PT
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:10:32 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: PT is and Idiot
Message:
Revisionism is rampant with you PT. I find what you say makes me VERY angry, because it implies some of us lacked the proper understanding of what was going on. You seem to ignore BM's responsibility entirely and just blame the premies and the organization. This is a common revisionist error, but it deceitful and just plain stupid nonetheless. I find it very insulting to my intelligence.

Lord of the Universe' is an Indian honorific and obviously cannot be taken literally.

Says who? As 'students' of BM, if it wasn't literal, shouldn't have that been explained? As I said, every premie I knew took it literally. You seem to be the only premie in the whole world who didn't. How perceptive of you. How come you didn't tell the rest of us? Maybe you should have informed M too. He seemed to not be aware of that as well.'

Superior power in person' is a common attribute of the Guru.

Common to whom? To you? Certainly not to me, nor to any of the premies I every knew. This is revsionist bullshit and you know it.

And 'His lila etc', is a piece of poetic imagery in a song that was written by Rich Neal and is, presumably, his opinion.

The song I was referring to was not written by Rich Neal, but is a much earlier song written by someone else. But tell me PT, is it explained to aspirants these days, that this is just 'poetic imagery' and that no 'lila' is actually going on? I doubt it. It certainly was believed, again, by me and all the premies I knew, and apparently about every other premie, except of course, for you with your advanced understanding. Don't make me laugh. Your revisionist explanations are idiotic to everyone who reads them, except of course, for you.

It isn't possible for Maharaji to be responsible for the claims or behaviour of everyone who has Knowledge

You don't bother to respond to the fact that he sat there multiple times with a crown crammed over his chubby face and let us sing arti and pranam to him, without comment, and had all those other deity phrases, including sitting under a banner with 'Lord of the Universe' on it and, again, did zippo to dissuade our belief that he was god. And Maharaji knew damn well that we believed it and he played it to the hilt, all the way to the bank.

He has done his best to eliminate everything but his core message which remains the same 'What you are looking for is inside of you'.

This is SUCH a lie! If this is true, why is he having thousands line up to kiss his feet again? God, you are and idiot, and I don't say that too often.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:36:37 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: PT is and Idiot Savant
Message:
Dear JW,
The fact that I didn't interpret things the same way you did suggests that the difference is in the listener, not in the message. Let's talk.
PT
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:31:34 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: PT is and Idiot Savant
Message:
PT, unfortunately, I've seen no evidence that we have anything to talk about. You have an entirely different view of history than I do when it comes to Maharaji and his cult. Yes, I guess it's possible that you heard and saw something different than virtually everyone else, but I would suggest that the odds of that are pretty low.

Best of luck to you.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:14:24 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: PT is a boring Idiot
Message:
Gee, PT, looks like nobody wants to talk to you any more. Now why is that, PT?
  • you are a fucking bore
  • you sound like a broken record
  • You have nothing to add to the discussion
  • you sound like a robot
  • Your position is indefensible

    Why don't you just run along or go play with somebody your own speed like CD or Mel Boring?
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:29:39 (EDT)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Gerry and JW
Subject: PT is a boring Idiot
Message:
Guys,
I'm glad you've also come to the realisation that PT is unworthy of engagement.

I'm also starting to think that PT may simply be another flame baiter whose intention is solely to annoy/bait you into silly non-discussion and thus degrade the quality of discourse on the thread.

Sabatoge can take many forms.

I mean,think about it-could someone who is not just practicing for a position on the board of the 'Institute for Historical review' really hold the untenable(sp?)positions of the pest that calls itself PT? Even a premie?
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 16:24:11 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Here's where you're wrong
Message:
The fact that I didn't interpret things the same way you did suggests that the difference is in the listener, not in the message.

PT, the difference here is that we're being honest and you're not. That is, if you and JW both took Sodium Pentathol and were asked if you thought that Maharaji lead his followers into thinking he was God in Human Form, BOTH of you would say yes. Put another way, if you both took lie detectors and you continued to spout all this nonsense, you'd fail.

It's that simple. Please continue chatting with us here. There have to be a number of premies who watch your premie cultthink-cultspeak who might actually be asking themself if this level of self-deception is worth it.

And, by the way, what about those holocuast deniers?
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 16:50:51 (EDT)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Here's where you're wrong
Message:
Jim,
There are a few questions that nobody's asked of the revisionist premies and those are : Why do you care whether he called himself god or not?What in your mind are the implications of him having called himself god that are disturbing you to the point that you vehemently deny the fact?

What's the big deal?
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:01:34 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Here's where you're wrong
Message:
Yeah, you're right, Biff.

How about it, PT? What about Biff's questions too? Why DO you care if he called himself God?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 05:10:56 (EDT)
From: FW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Help!
Message:
I am posting under a pseudonym due to reasons which will become obvious. I found this Forum about two months ago and during that time have become free of Maharaji and what I have come to see as a cult. A close relative of mine who first told me about M, however is very much involved.

I see her daughter suffering, having been virtually abandoned emotionally when she was in her early teens and her mother was indoctrinated into believing in Maharaji. I had a conversation with this girl recently and she also feels her mother is in a cult. She needs her mother at the present time yet her mother does not seem to be able to be present for her as a parent.

So I told my relative about this Forum. I told her how I have learnt information here I never knew. I told her about Sant Mat and about the 70's 'Lord of the Universe' claims. I told her M might not be who or what he claims to be. I suggested she come and read here.

Our conversation ended with she slightly defensive yet assuring me my leaving knowledge would not affect our relationship. She said she is happy with it and it makes her whole life good. When I mentioned her daughter needing her she could not seem to address it, but denied that she was acting under 'suggestions' to cut off from her family. Yet I remember M telling this story and we listening intently as he told of Krishna and Arjuna on the battlefield - and Krishna saying 'don't bother about killing your family -they are dead already' - i.e. They only tie you to the illusion.

I feel very vulnerable at the moment knowing that having declared my true situation and sharing about the Forum, my posts may be recognized. But I also feel like a postman who has delivered a message - maybe my only responsibility to my relative.

This has helped me see even more clearly the denial present in this cult. The damage done to lives of innocent people. Her daughter agreed she thinks her mother is in a cult. Yet she is alone. Who will replace her only parent? Will Maharaji's grace help her, when all she really needs is her mother back?

Maharaji tell me again that children raise themselves.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 06:55:24 (EDT)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: FW
Subject: Help!
Message:
Hello FW,
Sorry to hear about your relative's predicament. You seem to see things for what they are and I am sure that your concern will help sort things out between mother and daughter - though it's not easy to get disciples to change their perspective.

'She needs her mother at the present time yet her mother does not seem to be able to be present for her as a parent.'
Of course not - when you are a devotee your family take second place at best. Nothing must stand in the way of the practice of knowledge and your duty to the person who gave the 'perfect gift'.

'Will Maharaji's grace help her, when all she really needs is her mother back?'
I think this sums up the dangers of being a premie. A devotee is taught that the only thing to rely on is the grace of the master and that all else will lead to dissapointment. Even if this world is transient it should not stop us caring about those close to us.
If the only reason we don't is fear of getting let down - then that is no reason epecially when it is our children and parents.
Best wishes
Seymour.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 12:22:34 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: FW
Subject: Help!
Message:
It's a bit spooky coming out of the cult. We've all gone through it, but that doesn't make it easier for the next person. The stories that I've seen here that have touched (and angered) me the most are those that concern children that are being neglected by parents who have their heads up Maharaji's ass. You get to look him in the eye that way, but you can't see anything else.

Her mother may never break away. Parent's who have to choose between:

(a) believing that it's all going to work out right if they just stay in Maharaji' grace, or
(b) seeing it for what it really is - AND having to accept responsibility for having neglected their children for so many year (in some cases to the point of complete abandonment),

may find it far less painful to choose (a). Hopefully there's a special little Hell out there for frauds like Prem Pal Rawat. There will be far too much agony ahead for those who continue to believe in him.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 15:55:05 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: FW
Subject: Love your kids
Message:
>When I mentioned her daughter needing her she could not seem to address it, but denied that she was acting under 'suggestions' to cut off from her family. Yet I remember M telling this story and we listening intently as he told of Krishna and Arjuna on the battlefield - and Krishna saying 'don't bother about killing your family -they are dead already' - i.e. They only tie you to the illusion.

Maharaji has certainly not told anybody to cut themselves off from their children.
I have heard him say that you do not own your children, they are their own person.
You must provide for your children and give them love but you can not provide their destiny.

I met a young man in his 20s in Miami in May whose parents are premies. He had only good things to say about his parents and their association with Maharaji. He is not a premie. He had just attended one of the programs since he was in Miami to meet up with his parents.

My impression is that the Krishna story is totally confusing to you.
The Krishna story has been a source of confusion and interpretation to many over the ages.
Here is an interesting interpretation of the Krishna story:
God Talks With Arjuna : The Bhagavad Gita

Regards,
CD
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:07:58 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Maharaji on maternal love
Message:
Here's Maharaji on the loving bond between mother and child:

'You think that your wife, your husband, your children will give you love? No. It is the love of selfishness. Baby loves mother because mother gives milk, not because they have a connection. No. Just because of selfish love. In the same way, you love everything because of selfishness. But we love guru without any selfishness.'
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 19:09:54 (EDT)
From: Free Woman (FW)
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Love your kids
Message:
Dear CD
I had another look at the Bhagavadgita to explore your suggestion about the interpretation. (All I could find on that web page was someone saying in a review of the book that it is about the psychological battle within. M himself said a few months ago that he has realised that is what the book is really about. Interesting that the Perfect Master concludes with the book reviewer of Amazon Books, after many years of contemplation. Though perhaps the enlightenment to reach this understanding is shared by these two and is not a product of either person).

Here is an interesting passage:
(from IV: The Way of Knowledge)

As men approach me so do I accept them: men on all sides follow my path, O Partha (Arjuna)

.....(commentary)....'the Hindu thinkers are conscious of the amazing variety of ways in which we may approach the Supreme, of the contingency of all forms...the forms we worship are aids to help us to become conscious of our deepest selves. So long as the object of worship holds fast the attention of the soul, it enters our mind and heart and fashions them...all manifestations belong to the Supreme.'

In my view, CD, I could become enlightened, according to this book, by worshipping anything appropriate to me. There is no mention of one Perfect Master here (out of interest).

But my true point is that once you have planted a side like - 'don't worry about having to 'kill' the ties to your family because they are dead anyway (ie not enlightened)' -
how can you say, oh well five years later he reviewed that interpretation, and now it means 'the heart must win over the mind?'

What about those premies who missed that video? They are now attached to a false master, in fact an earlier version of the master, which has now become corrupt in a sense. See what I mean? How foolish it is to follow such instructions? They change all the time!
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:12:13 (EDT)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: FW
Subject: Help!
Message:
Hi FW
It's great that you care enough about this girl to post here. I know it can be scary. There's lots and lots of posts about parents and children and Maharaji in the archives, if you can search them. I think you need to be able to unzip them to read them but I haven't tried.
I have posted several things about this. I was one of the parents that Brian so eloquently put it - ' had my head up M's ass'
I chose option B and admitted what had happened. It was and is painful but I feel it was worth it.
CD doesn't quite get it, it's not so much what M says or doesn't say. it's the gradual indoctrination into a lifestyle that puts the guru (oops meditation teacher) as number one.
I have faith that most children will prevail and make their own decisions, usually against the cult. The demographics at events proove this. Most attendees are 40 somethings, hangers on.
NOt many young people. I hope your stating your position will not
cause this mother to keep you away. I doubt it. Premies always try to look so cool and mellow and above it all.
I also hope x reads this and posts. He was the child of a premie for years and has some very good insights.

btw, I heard him say that remark about 'children raise themselves' It's hard to believe a PARENT would say that but then he had a flock of slaves doing all the real parenting so what the hell does he know?
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 13:08:36 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Help!
Message:
btw, I heard him say that remark about 'children raise themselves

This might be Maharaji's viewpoint because he probably did little of the raising of his own kids, and his parents probably did little raising of him, because in both cases, there were a multitude of devotees/servants, working for slave or no wages, who performed that function. I think this may be one of M's' let them eat cake statements.'
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 20:27:16 (EDT)
From: canoga park
Email: not ready yet
To: FW
Subject: Help!
Message:
Dear Help

I am just getting used to this forum. I wrote a message to you and am not sure where it went.

Hope it turns up as a new thread. It is hard to re create it here. But the core of it is to let her talk talk talk.( the daughter that is.) And not just about this. but about the fountain of teenage that wells inside her.

Also, I suggest a class action suite by families of addicted premmies that have had a dysfuctional upbringing because of anesthetised ( cant spell that) parents under the influence of this Thing.

And I too need to stay anonymous, for a relationship, and it is not my computer.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 23:17:07 (EDT)
From: x
Email: x2000@goplay.com
To: FW
Subject: Help!
Message:
This is a very perplexing phenomena. Premies are so insulated with a layer of smug righteousness, that they can be frustrating to attempt real communication with. They seem sane in most ways, more or less, but as soon as the subject of the lord comes up, they zone out into their programmed premie-speak stock responses.
If you raise any 'doubt' they get defensive and illogical, telling you stuff like 'you have to lose your concepts' 'its an experience' 'it cant be explained with words', etc. Its like that movie Invasion of the Body Snatchers, or something. I've showed some of the journal entries to my mother, but they just did'nt seem to register. She is computer phobic, so I had to print them. For now I give up on her. She is strung out on this bs to hard to come out right now. I dont know what the best ways to approach your relatives are, but good luck. I hope you can talk some sense into these people.

x
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 05:49:33 (EDT)
From: FW
Email: None
To: x
Subject: to 'x'
Message:
Thanxs x,
you xy thing....

Yes, perplexing premies. Think I will forget them tonight and just live my life... musn't put all my x in one basket...get me outta here before I forget Xactly what I came here for!!!

x-it!
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 05:41:04 (EDT)
From: FW
Email: None
To: canoga park
Subject: to: canoga park re: help!
Message:
Dear canoga park, you will probably quickly get used to the way this thing works if you decide to come back - hope you do! The older messages end up down below the new messages. If you can recall what you named the 'subject' field, that is how to locate a post. Hope that makes sense and thanks for your caring advice, which makes perfect sense. In fact I think I will follow it!
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 05:59:26 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: FW
Subject: Help! And M's Parental Advice
Message:
Welcome FW and I admire your courage to post. I only started participating on this forum a couple of weeks ago, and it is extremely therapeutic to do so. It's a great place to get rid of all those nagging doubts you've had. Better to get them aired out here, then carry them around inside!! For me, these ex-premies are doing the work of a hundred counsellors!

I can understand your anxiety over your friend's daughter. I have also been close to a child of premie parents (he lived with me for a year while I was a premie and with the premie father) and am now only aware of what he may have been feeling deep down (x's posts have helped me see that). However, he will be the only one to make the conclusion of whether he resented it or not - that's not for me to do so.

M has a lot to be responsible for in terms of his advice to premie parents. I remember him saying that with children, all you need to do is decide whether they are good or idiots and then feed them. If they're not idiots they'll grow up fine on their own accord.

Initially I didn't want to post this as it is just a rumour and I don't think M's kids should be tarred with the same brush as M, but at the last event at Amaroo, the word was going around that M's youngest son was going through a stage of 'compulsive lying'. Everyone thought that was very amusing at the time - but maybe if it is true, it's indicative that M really does follow his own advice!

I was also alarmed when he was talking about children's natural curiousities and desires and how they should never be discouraged. He started to tell of how his son came to him, and said he wanted a truck. M told him, 'If I buy you this truck, you'll be bored of it, and not want it'. M's son insisted he wanted it. So M bought it for him. Sure enough, the son was bored with it immediately. And this wasn't a toy truck we're talking about! Most premies probably don't have the luxury to satisfy their children's every whim on this scale - but M's obviously not aware of that!

You should point out what someone else said on this thread, that M has always had hundreds of people around him helping out. His is not a normal parenting situation and so should not be seen as a standard. Encourage the daughter to seek out other friends/family/teacher who are not premies and who can offer additional support. I'm sure you've got child help-lines wherever you are as well, which are good with advice. Also check out some of the other cult sites on the web. And then maybe, if you're really concerned, speak to a child welfare agency. I'm pretty sure that can be done anonymously.

Hope it goes well.

Regards, TD
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 06:15:57 (EDT)
From: FW
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Help! And M's Parental Advice
Message:
Thanks TD. Appreciate your reply and your concern for others.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 02:48:14 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Institutionalised Premies
Message:
Reading that thread below about that lovely old premie who is now doing M's laundry got me thinking about whether there are some premies who have become so institutionalised that they couldn't survive outside of the premie dogmatic landscape. (A bit like that old prisoner in the movie Shawshank Redemption who can't take life on the outside and so shoots himself).

I'm feeling pretty confrontational now, like I want to send copies of these forums, a copy of the Guru Papers etc to all the premies I know (many who've had K for 25 years).

But part of me feels that I would feel responsible, if for example, one of the premies I sent the stuff, freaked out, accepted that they'd be in a cult headed by a fraud and then did something crazy, like killed themselves. I know that there have been a number of related suicides in the past and it would be awful to think you've been a catalyst for the same thing.

So, do you think it's important to distinguish the institutionalised premies from the possibly faltering ones (if we can) and then maybe only target the faltering ones with a bit of ex-premie material - or play it safe, and not send anything at all?

And the ultimate cosmic cult conundrum - is it better for a person to be alive inside of a cult, than possibly dead outside of it??

Advice needed, fellow exes...

Regards, TD
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 03:12:15 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: TD
Subject: Institutionalised Premies
Message:
Seems like this is the time to remember that, basically, we're the victims and M is the 'criminal'.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 04:04:13 (EDT)
From: david f.
Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com
To: TD
Subject: Institutionalised Premies
Message:
Just home from friday night potluck with friends, and saw your post. I think that we need to ultimatley look to our own lives, and use this forum for our own ends. To do otherwise puts us in the same position as M who would promise salvation -- that's not what we are here for.

If others read, and wish to inquire about their own fears, or doubts, or questions, so be it. I remember when I was a premie: anything anyone said that didn't fit my reality of DLM, I pretty much ignored, especially if they were trying to make me come around to their way of thinking. Something had to finally shift within myself for me to break free.

I cna't see us becoming saviors -- its like trying to convince someone not to be an alcoholic -- it just doesn't work until they are ready.

best wishes, david f.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 10:32:52 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Institutionalised Premies
Message:
Things are progressing here, but not for the ones who are still going on a regular basis. These people do not want to read anything.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 13:22:55 (EDT)
From: voice of sanity
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: these people
Message:
Why did you ever ask for Knowledge? What is your problem? What did Maharaji say which you translated into something harmful? I would seriously like to know.

By the way, I have read a lot of the posts from this web site. I don't find it enlightening reading. In fact, I would not recommend that anyone experiencing doubts, etc. read posts on this web site, simply because it is neither inspiring or helpful, being as it is a very biased platform for slandering the one person who can really help and is helping a helluva lot of people all over the world.

Why waste time reading this b.s. when you can spend the same hours listening to something which will actually make a real difference in your life, a really beautiful difference?

Gail, what is your problem? I don't get it. Why did you ask for Knowledge? What was the real reason? Did you want Maharaji to think for you? Did you want to join some club or religion that would tell you how to live? Sorry, but that is not what he provides, that is not what he offers. It really gets me how people who are predisposed to being repressed and judgmental and anxious take those qualities in themselves and try to project those onto Maharaji -- which actually he is the one who FREES us of that bullshit! Only problem is, you have to really listen to him with your heart, you have to be sincere, and you have to make the real effort.

You all are airing dirty laundry here. That is all. Why should premies be interested in coming around? So they can breathe in the stench? You are going to call people cult members because they don't want to smell it?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:04:01 (EDT)
From: Mahatma Excreteanand
Email: None
To: voice of sanity
Subject: The Stench of BS
Message:
Why waste time reading this b.s. when you can spend the same hours listening to something which will actually make a real difference in your life, a really beautiful difference?

Cripes, you must be a brand new premie or just plain old hardcore wearing blinders!

I would certainly consider that the practice of meditation (any brand will do including MJs) can provide soothing, centering effects. And would not discourage anyone from do such.

However, if you really believe that there is no B.S. or there was no B.S. or simply bad advice given to premies by MJ or Mahatmas or other premies then you are simply delusional or were not there at all.

It was GROUP INSANITY and still is. This forum allows people to SPEAK THEIR MINDS instead of holding it all in and letting it rot their hearts out. I really find that this forum is a place where this stuff can get out as opposed to being constantly swept under the rug and ignored. It tells me that I am/was not crazy and instead a lot of that stuff is/was crazy.

Consider the Mahatmas that were molesters and pedophiles. (Lila?)
Consider the power of these other people over premies lives.
Consider the extravagence.
Consider the philosphy of worldly irresponsibility.
Consider the rumors.
Consider the ashram business where they are basically told that they're gonna go to hell if they left. And then the ashrams are disbanded - not once, but twice.

Oh sure, some of this is ancient history, but consider it as a track record. What is one to believe when the message, sometimes rather harsh, keeps permutating. How does one reconcile that especially since you are told not to question (chit-chat) and not to doubt? Confusion is the result.

So, continue to meditate if it is of benefit, but prick up your ears and enable your brain. That's my two cents of B.S. for this forum.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:04:47 (EDT)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: voice of sanity
Subject: voice of M
Message:
I know several people who have told me about how when they were growing up they SWORE that they would never say this thing that their parents said, or do that thing that their parents did. Then, bingo, they're adults and they find to their amazement that they are saying and doing those exact things. Humans have an incredible ability to absorb and later replay phrases and communication styles and attitudes.

Well, it's not that premies ever swore that they wouldn't sound like Maharaji, but it's amazing how much they do and in what a short phrase they can capture his whole psychological approach: Why did you ever ask for Knowledge? I mean, in one short sentence at the beginning of his/her post, VOS manages do all of these things that are so typical of M:
1) turn the criticism back onto the criticizer
2) imply that Maharaji is blameless and anything bad that happens is someone else's fault
3) make an attack in a very indirect and dishonest way
4) attempt to manipulate with guilt

There are a few M followers/sympathizers who post here who actually have their own thoughts, spoken in their own voice. But not many. Most of them move their mouths and M's voice comes out. They'll probably be proud when they read that. But it's nothing to be proud of, people often can't stop parroting their parents/pseudoparents even when they want to.

You all are airing dirty laundry here. That is all.
You have the same dirty laundry, but you're sleeping in it instead of airing it.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 15:09:38 (EDT)
From: Magdeline
Email: premag10@excitemail.com
To: Peter
Subject: voice of M
Message:
Just practised the techniques this morning after
18 years of enjoing. It works. My ex-boyfreind ex-con just received
Knowledge in Miami.. He loves it and practises daily.
Obviously you're caught in this incredible potential too. Otherwise you wouldn't waste your time being intoxicated in your delusion about
the Master of our time.

By the way if you have dirty laundry....get some soap.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 15:19:39 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Magdeline
Subject: voice of M
Message:
Just practised the techniques this morning after
18 years of enjoing. It works.


What do you mean, 'work'? Are you talking about giving you a nice little buzz away from your mind? Are you talking about god realization, crossing the ocean of illusion, life and death and all that? Which is it?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 15:24:19 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: simple wisdom
Message:
>Are you talking about giving you a nice little buzz away from your mind?

Remember the story about trying to describe taste of the Mango?
And of course the sugar ant and the salt ant story.
There is a lot of simple wisdom in those stories.

CD
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 15:58:23 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: simple wisdom
Message:
Chris,

Are you suggesting that I don't know what a mango taste like? Chris, I not only tasted one. I moved onto the fucking mango farm for the better part of a decade. All we did was eat, sleep and dream mangoes. I gave up SEX so I could enjoy them more. I tried to turn the whole world on to them. Mangoes, mangoes, mangoes.

And yes, Chris, I ate a lot of them. And yes, Chris, I REALLY remember what they taste like. So, what's your point?

As for the ants, isn't that one hell of a story? Until you relinquish all doubts and slavishly accept anything and everything I have to say without running it by your bullshit detector or anything, you won't experience 'x'. No, sorry, Chris, that story's all about how to run, not walk, into your nearest cult recruiting office.

The funny thing is -- and I know that you know this -- whenever premies try to say they never quit using their critical faculties or thinking for themselves, I ask them about this same little story!
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:07:55 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: simple wisdom
Message:
>And yes, Chris, I ate a lot of them. And yes, Chris, I REALLY remember what they taste like. So, what's your point?

You still can't explain to somebody else how they taste!

>Until you relinquish all doubts and slavishly accept anything and everything I have to say without running it by your bullshit detector or anything, you won't experience 'x'.

Yes, you accept your BS point of view I would have to give up all common sense.

You will not get the benefit of an improved style of backhand stroke in tennis until you relinquish your old habits.

'You can't have your cake and eat it too.'

CD
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:14:33 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: simpleton
Message:
Chris,

Regarding the mango analogy, you say your point is:

You still can't explain to somebody else how they taste!

I fail to see the relevance. Care to explain? If we've both eaten mangoes, we can talk about them, right? We both know what they taste like. The analogy loses any significance.

Regarding the ant story you write:

You will not get the benefit of an improved style of backhand stroke in tennis until you relinquish your old habits.

Yes, I'm sure that's true. So? Again, what's the relevance? Relevance, Chris? What's the relevance?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 16:34:38 (EDT)
From: Barney
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Different Strokes...
Message:
You will not get the benefit of an improved style of backhand stroke in tennis until you relinquish your old habits.

That implies that we are being taught by someone to drop our old habits and adopt new techniques.

Ok, so you got these saffron robed Mahatmas and other sick people acting emissaries telling you how you should live your life for the purpose of improving your game. This presupposes that these people haved dropped their bad habits and are good role models.

Yet, there is pretty convincing evidence that these so called Saints are performing what might be criminal acts that are considered by many to be reprehensible.

Should I follow their example?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:08:47 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: voice of sanity
Subject: voice of programming
Message:
By the way, I have read a lot of the posts from this web site. I don't find it enlightening reading. In fact, I would not recommend that anyone experiencing doubts, etc. read posts on this web site, simply because it is neither inspiring or helpful

Thank you for demonstrating so completely, Gail's point. You don't want to read anything that doesn't conform to your pre-conceived programming.

By the way, if you've read the archives and the website and you STILL don't get what Maharaji has said and done that has damaged so many people, then there probably isn't any point in reading any more. It's just because the vegetables are rotting inside of us, right?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:43:12 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: different views
Message:
>By the way, if you've read the archives and the website and you STILL don't get what Maharaji has said and done that has damaged so many people, then there probably isn't any point in reading any more.

Many people have benefited from the association with Maharaji and what he teaches.
Some claim to have been damaged, many are indifferent.
There is not just one side to this story.

Rock and Rock has been branded as harmful by many people also.
People read and believe tabloid stories. Sometimes they have some validity. I do not use them as my news source.
The people who inhabit this world certainly have a wide variety of ideas about what is actually true.
This site certainly contains writings representing a wide diversity of ideas and opinions.

Regards,
CD
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:52:52 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: different views
Message:
Chris,

None could say it better. Good work, fella.

You can relax a bit, Chris. The CDCP is a little hungover from a big night at the lab, you know? No experiments today.

Jim

P.S. You MIGHT want to think about what proof you'd want from KK if..... no, forget it. Even subjects deserve a break now and then. Go ahead, Chris, enjoy the rest of the day. Your girlfriend's coming in about an hour to take you for a short walk, anyway. Maybe you should go put on your runners, 'kay?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 15:07:48 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: evidence and work
Message:
>You MIGHT want to think about what proof you'd want from KK if...

You would not allow an unkown witness to testify against one of your clients. You would certainly check out the witness, the story details and circumstances related to the evidence.

>Chris, enjoy the rest of the day. Your girlfriend's coming in about an hour to take you for a short walk,

Besides a little time on this forum, I am spending today working on a couple computer consulting projects. I may end up with 60-70 hours weeks for a while.

Have fun,
CD
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 15:16:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Hey, now you're talking!!
Message:
>You MIGHT want to think about what proof you'd want from KK if...
You would not allow an unkown witness to testify against one of your clients. You would certainly check out the witness, the story details and circumstances related to the evidence.


You're absolutely right, Chris. So, is that what you want? You want KK (who apparently is gone for a couple of weeks) to back up his story a bit, maybe even identify himself? Well, of course I can't talk for him but I wouldn't be surprised if he obliges. After all, I can't see how his identity would be much of a secret to anyone who knew him as a premie.

Anyway, you want details, right? Let's say KK gives them to you. Then what?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 22:22:16 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: different views
Message:
This site certainly contains writings representing a wide diversity of ideas and opinions.

You're here, aren't you? How many of us are at Elan Vital?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 21:50:14 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: voice of sanity
Subject: these people
Message:
In fact, I would not recommend that anyone experiencing doubts, etc. read posts on this web site, simply because it is neither inspiring or helpful

I wouldn't say that.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 01:46:53 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: voice of sanity
Subject: Listen to this voice of sanity
Message:
I have been GRACED with a good memory. Stuffing down lie after lie all these years has been very painful for me. Each time I would ask my cohorts WHY I would be quickly admonished. PREMIES DON'T HAVE QUESTIONS.

One of my favourite lines is DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN .... I began to feel like a lunatic because others in the pack couldn't remember.

Look. I've SURRENDERED with the rest of you, but I just never could stay down for the count. I have listened to MJ tell me I wasn't good enough to be the dust under his foot. For 24 years I've listened to these horse feathers.

I have listened to hypnotic videos five and six times each. I have meditated. I have spent copious amounts of money following the Guru. I have donated my time and my hard-earned money.

Still, I am no further ahead. In fact, despite my trepidations, I feel I have made more progress since June 9, 1998 (when I found this site) than I have made in 24 years of this tripe.

I am still a naive 20-year old woman who believes in fairy tales. This is pathetic. Since the lord has not come to help me, I have no need to remain his child. I can grow up now. Why don't you? I know you want to.

Did you read my post at the top? PREMIES ON THE RUN. These are middle-aged people. Don't they sound like adolescents?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 11:22:50 (EDT)
From: RT
Email: om
To: TD
Subject: Institutionalised Premies
Message:
Hi TD

Just say know..this means, send The Card (or make your own) and on the back side write other web sites, cult related. In that way you are not at fault, for they have to do the searching.

Seek and it shall click!

Regards

RT
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 20:15:34 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Institutionalised Premies
Message:
Good idea RT. Ex-premie propogation.

I'll throw out all those old 'Invitation to a Video Event of Maharaji' cards, and replace them with these. Touche!

Regards, TD
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 12:31:59 (EDT)
From: Mark
Email: Apple 4256@aol.com
To: TD
Subject: Institutionalised Premies
Message:
I think you have an obligation to communicatre to those people in your immediate sphere of influence. For Yourself first and foremost. And for others, if nothing else, your change will be noted and at some point may assist them(.And its a very real part of YOU processing, what is on some level, a group emotional experience). And quite possibly, you may have the most interesting conversation you've ever had with them!
Communication is what has been effectively winnowed out of most premie to premie contacts. Just some premie realizing that you are open to communicate may be an enormously important step in their search for liberation.
However, Kidnap/Deprogramming is out.
Actually, don't underestimate the capacity of people
to recover and grow. We are designed for freedom.
Remember that belief system deprogramming in going on
all over this planet on lots of Religious cults and Churchs,
not to mention racial and sexual stuff.

Truth needs fresh air-and fresh ears. Life will bring you those to tell once your intentions are clear on why you're doing it.If its sincere, watch the magic happen.

thank you, by the way, for your delightful Journey piece.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 04:41:42 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Institutionalised Premies
Message:
Thanks Mark for your great advice. Yeah, I've realised that being confrontational with premies is probably not a very effective use of my ex-premie time!!

It's just that I still do feel angry that those premies in a way (in particular my premie partner which is even more hurtful) 'mislead' me by not telling me certain things they knew about M & K (see my reply to Red Heart below) until after I became a premie! It's like I want to make them 'wake up' to some of the total horseshit they sprouted to me while as a premie, and so they don't do the same thing to other aspirants. I'm ashamed of my own selective evangelical behaviour as a premie, so I kinda want them to be too - which is a futile wish and a dominating kind of attitude!

So I'm really thankful for your advice and others here - my head of steam has cooled off now. I realise that gentle communication is the best way.

Thanks again, and thanks for your thanks re. my journey. That means a lot.

Regards, TD
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 13:13:17 (EDT)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: self-righteous missionaries
Message:
This website gives me the heebeejeebees... Posts like this remind me of my 'church lady' evangelistic missionary ex-sister-in-law. Out to save all the deluded souls and have them join her own 'mission.' I know she 'means well,' but doesn't make it better.

Ever hear of free choice, free will. There's a heck of a lot of people who do understand Maharaji in the spirit he means (rather than analyzing and projecting his meanings into twisted dogmas).

I am a student of Maharaji, a premie, and I can tell you that I have not abandoned or neglected my child who is now a teenager, and who is well-adjusted and confident. I can assure you that without Maharaji's help, I would not have been as good of a mother, and he would have problems.

Maharaji helps me every day. He has had zero 'bad' influence on my life, and I do have a 'mind of my own' as well. Just so happens that the further I progress, the more I find myself thinking the same way as Maharaji. It's nothing evil. Rather, it is beautiful, it is simple, and it is magic.

When this world gets me down, the pressures come at me, the doubts or worries about my little life oppress me, by Maharaji's grace I know a way I can go inside, dive deep inside, meld with my own inner divinity, my own inner sanity. Then a couple hours later I come back to my same situation, and I have some clarity and sanity that helps me put things in perspective: I find myself communicating with rather than nagging at or criticizing my child; working with a positive approach towards life's problems without getting morose, anxious or depressed. And guess what? Things just get better, not because my life situations are 'perfect' -- coz they almost never are -- but because Maharaji has shown me the perfection within that, it's glow transforms my very ability to process and deal with this world in a way that I can really enjoy myself more and more.

Maharaji isn't into judging people, Maharaji doesn't teach us to judge people. You all are SO judgmental. But, thankfully, the darkness will never be able to withhold the light. Light is light. No matter what you want to call it, it will still shine.

May you find the Light in your own life.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 13:17:57 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: self-righteous hypocrite
Message:
Maharaji isn't into judging people, Maharaji doesn't teach us to judge people. You all are SO judgmental.

But then, who are you to judge? Hypocrite!
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:36:06 (EDT)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: self-righteous hypocrite
Message:
Thanks JW.
Do these people even hear themselves?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:05:53 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: Red Fart is back
Message:
You poor thing. Do you get angry, Red Fart? Does it piss you off that people are dissing your plastic Guru doll? Say 'Fuck You, Ex's!'. Now, that feels better doesn't it.

Or are you above all that negativity? Really, you don't have to get dragged down into that anger, do you? It's so messy and everything! Yuck. It's much better to be in the pure and perfect harmony that maharaji's grace provides.

By the way, what is His Grace, maharaji's grace? Is that some sort of magic that comes through the air like radio waves? Or no, wait a minute, it's already within inside us, is that right? Like we were born with it, then we tap into it, and it just there... POOF!... all so natural.

You under a delusion, Red Fart. There isn't any connection between the benefits you're experiencing in life and your Pretend Guru. Most of the little lovelies you attribute to your Guru happen to all of us. The thing is, you'll never know until you dump the horrible Fat One off your back, that all the stuff you're attributing to him will still be there.

Try challenging the Wizard. He's really got nothing.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:27:44 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: PYMWYMI, Red Heart
Message:
I am a student of Maharaji, a premie, and I can tell you that I have not abandoned or neglected my child who is now a teenager, and who is well-adjusted and confident. I can assure you that without Maharaji's help, I would not have been as good of a mother, and he would have problems.

Okay, Red Heart,

time for you to 'put your money where your mouth is'. I dare you to turn your teenager onto this site. Go ahead, tell him there's a web site run by 'cranky, old judgmental fools', or however you want to describe us. Just tell him that we were all premies ourselves at one time, some of us even instructors or quite close to Maharaji. Then show him the site and let him browse around.

Let HIM tell us, then, how happy he is that his mother's a premie.

Well?
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 04:23:57 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: self-righteous missionaries
Message:
This website gives me the heebeejeebees... Posts like this remind me of my 'church lady' evangelistic missionary ex-sister-in-law. Out to save all the deluded souls and have them join her own 'mission.' I know she 'means well,' but doesn't make it better.

Maybe your ex-sister-in-law got some tips off the styles once used by premies in the early days of DLM. Ever spoken to old premies about the lengths they went to in 'converting' passersby to the World of Knowledge? If you haven't, I'll happily publish some first hand accounts in a post. They're a hoot. Premies dressed in suits going along the beach trying to save young sunbakers with Divine Light material! Written in their own words too!

Ever hear of free choice, free will.

Yep, certainly have. But your free choice and free will can be influenced by the amount of information you have been given prior to making that choice.

One of my big objections to M's style of propagation is that it is so controlled and so secretive. Premies now can no longer speak freely at any video event. The whole thing is scripted. Any questions aspirants have, are not answered directly and they have to hope that M will one day stumble upon their answer in a video. M is trying to re-write his own history - all the nostalgic videos only show the lovely times. They might show a shot of premies happily dancing at an event in India. Why don't they ever show a shot of the faces of premies working all day at his Malibu Mansion or a shot of those premies who were slaving away on the 707? Aren't these ALL part of M's history, his World of Knowledge??

Why I am particularly peeved, and why I do feel confrontational, is that the premies that introduced me to Knowledge, never once disclosed to me information that would have certainly had me thinking twice about continuing as an aspirant. It was only after I became a premie and after reading about incidents on this web-site that one of those premies confirmed some of those stories. It was suddenly like a repressed memory had come again to the fore! Why do premies choose to selectively forget or ignore such incidents?

There's a law in America, I believe, that ensures that when selling your house, you must disclose to the potential buyer, any major incident that happened in the house, such as a murder or so on. Then the buyer can make an informed choice, and then they will not be upset to find later on, say a severed head buried in the garden!!

Don't you think it's your responsibility to tell aspirants you know about some of the 'not so savoury' things you know or have experienced around Maharaji and Knowledge? Don't you think you should tell them about this web-site and let them make up their own minds about M and K, so that they have both sides of the story and can really make an informed choice, based on their own free will?

I know that I wish I had been given that opportunity - but this web-site was not around then, and the premies I knew never told me anything negative at all. Having been a premie, I know that there is a lot of personal satisfaction in seeing someone you introduced to M, follow it through and become a premie. In a way, you need it to reconfirm and re-justify your own choice and you know it will make M happy to see his numbers rise. After all, he loves quoting how many people around the world have K!!

As for your child. I am in no position to make a judgement on your parenting as I don't know you personally. As Jim said, your child should be the only one to make such a conclusion about his mum being a premie. From my experience, I have seen some behaviour of premie parents that I do deem neglectful. For example, one premie had decided to go to an event in India on the Friday for two weeks. On the Monday of that week, she had still not found a place/people for her 10 year old son to stay with. I know as a child, with my parents travelling a lot, that it was always an anxious thing when my parents went away - but they always had supervision/housekeeping carefully planned out in advance. Anyway, the father, who I knew, was beside himself with worry, but couldn't do much as he lived 3,000km away. The same premie would also complain about the lack of money she had to spend on her son, and yet was still jetting all around the world to see Maharaji. What conclusion am I to make of that?

Based on my fellow exes wise advice in this thread, I will not be confrontational to existing premies, but I would certainly like existing premies to be more responsible and more open about the full history of DLM/EV when communicating M's message to new aspirants. I know M wouldn't want you to do that, but you could maybe try out some of that free will you've been talking about!
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 13:29:45 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Institutionalised Premies
Message:
From my own experience I'd say this.

When I was in the Maharaji cult, the most powerful force for me, just below all the cult programming, which was largely based on fear of what would happen to me if I left, was the love and caring I felt for some people who were close to me, both premie and non-premie. These relationships were put down by Maharaji and his minions, but they were never really destroyed.

So, when someone approached me on that basis, with caring and concern, and at the same time told me the 'truth' about what the cult really was and how destructive it was, it sunk in to some degree, and hooked up with my own shit-detector, which had been heavily repressed, but wasn't dead. I think it's that connection that got me out.

And I saw the flip side too. I feel very fortunate that my close premie friends all got out of the cult shortly after I did. I just talked to them like the friends they were, and told them honestly, with no hypebole or scare tactics, how I felt. I tried to connect with them on things we had in common and the mutual affection we had. And it worked. And I was so glad they got out. I think if I had just sent them something to read or if I laid heavy into them, it might have had the opposite effect. They might have felt so defensive that they might have closed me out and that connection would have been broken.

So, I guess what I'm saying is I felt I had an obligation to my friends, at least, to make all the effort I could to tell them the truth and also to support them in the discomfort that might cause. But I feel that others were really outside my range of influence and I was better to let those people find their own way, hopefully with the help of others who love them.

Good luck to you.

JW
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 05:08:33 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Institutionalised Premies
Message:
Once again JW, you've given me some great advice and insight into your own experience. As I've learnt and continue to learn, a theory is never as valuable as direct experience!!

It was funny actually, because this afternoon I was driving along listening to a radio interview with the Israeli guy who heads up that famous Heroin detox centre in Israel - the one with the great success rate. He's doing a tour of Oz at the moment. Anyway he was saying about the kind of addicts they don't accept and one of the criteria was if they didn't have a good support network of family and friends, because without that, his detox wouldn't work.

That point resonated with me because of what you said in your post about how important your relationship was with premies and non-premies in getting you out.

I've moved away from a lot of those premies I knew and the only way I can contact them is via post/phone-call etc. My ex-partner has never replied to a letter I sent him telling him (in a very gentle non-confronting tone) that I was no longer a premie, and also listed a few of the contradictory/misleading issues I was now acutely aware of re. M & K.

I know that he is continuing to propogate and I for some reason, feel very protective of those aspirants. I guess because of my own painful experience and because I know that they will only be told the same stuff I was - which is purely a regurgitation of M's revised history and that nothing is expected of you at all accept a sincere heart, blah blah ad nauseum. Still, that's probably not my immediate responsibility...so maybe I should try and let that one go also...hmmmmm.

Thanks again JW,

TD
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 00:01:05 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Massive UFO activity in UK
Message:
Just in case anyone's interested, notight there have been mass sightings of UFOs all over Britain. All along the west coast people have seen lights in the sky flying in formations of Zs & Ss. In the North East there have been sightings of RAF fighter planes chasing bright, oblong UFOs which have been seen to divide into multiple UFOs and speed off in all directions, leaving the RAF planes standing.

Are these the end times? Have they finally come to usher in the new millenium, the new age? Time to speculate wildly about little green men taking over the world and the final countdown. Or are they just here on a package holiday?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 00:04:51 (EDT)
From: RT
Email: mmm
To: Sir David
Subject: Massive UFO activity in UK
Message:
Yes, please leave any web page news that covers it. It may be stealth USA ships. I have friends in Air Research that would like to see this news. RT
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 12:50:26 (EDT)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Massive UFO activity in UK
Message:
Are you serious?How come i've heard no mention of this on the news? I love this kind of stuff.It's chilling.

Oh by the way;yeah,methinks we're at the end of the road.This is where humanity came to.Pretty cool species with unlimited potential but I guess it's time for evolution to do away with us and start afresh.However I doubt all this ufo stuff.And I doubt that it's got anything to do with our impending demise.

We're handling our own apocolypse very well thank-you and I don't think we need any help getting to armageddon.However it's always possible that ufo's/abductions have been real and that somehow what we're doing down here affects our interplanetary visitors so they keep a watchful eye.Who knows anything really?

It's fun to watch it all unfold even though it is a drag.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 13:33:56 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Massive UFO activity in UK
Message:
Maybe it's only me but lately time has become more compact for me. My days have been super intense. I feel like I'm preparing for something. I've been sensing it for some time but it doesn't feel bad (after all, if its the end of the world or judgement day, it will be all over in a flash won't it?) Not that I think that's it. I was wondering if we are all having a shift in consciousness.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:50:12 (EDT)
From: pam
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Massive UFO activity in UK
Message:
Did the British media cover it? Or is British media as censored about UFO's as American media is? We've got a huge cover up going on here.
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 20:59:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Little drops of mercy
Message:
KK,

Really, when you think of it, Maharaji cashing you out like that is incredible. What, he's actually financing your plunge into maya, illusion, hell? So how much did he give you and what in the WORLD gave you the idea of asking? Did you ask him directly? Did you guys negotiate? Did you talk about all the reasons for and implications of this payout? Any jokes at the time?

Did Maharaji ask you to keep it quiet, expressly or otherwise? Do you know of anyone else that ever 'settled' with him?

How do you think the payout affected your opinion and feelings for Maharaji? How about now? I mean, I cvould imagine despising him more than ever once one realizes how cynical he really is about his own value to a premie. Know what I mean?

Sorry for all the questions. It's just, well, this is a pretty unique situation, isn't it?

Thanks,
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 16:08:09 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@hol.fr
To: Everyone
Subject: Satguru has come!
Message:
Anybody wanting to have that film before
Mr Rawat buys it?

I'm selling it for 20,000 $ to Prempal Rawat
or give it for free to Jim Heller.

Plus: Family of Love & Power of Love: 20,000 $ for both
or for free to Jim.
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 16:30:03 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Satguru has come!
Message:
JM:

I would LOVE to see these. Are they actual films or are they on video? I recall that Power of Love was transferred to video in the early 80s. Also, what is 'Family of Love?' I don't think I remember that one>

JW
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 16:34:23 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Satguru has come: FILM
Message:
reel to reel !

I guess it's 16 mm or something.

and in good shape.

If Rawat is not fast enough to buy it, you might have a chance to see it! I think we should have it transferred on a video.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:07:49 (EDT)
From: Larry Flint
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Satguru has come: FILM
Message:
I'll pay $50,000 cash for each!
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 18:02:26 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Larry Flint
Subject: deal!
Message:
Ok: you send me an email,
jmkahn@hol.fr
and the films will be yours

My lawyer will of course care for the transaction, and
he will get a 10% commission.

Ok Jim ?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 18:11:24 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: RAWAT!!!!!!
Message:
Are you going to leave these films to Larry?

Larry? How much Rawat is going to pay you for the films?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 18:31:05 (EDT)
From: Larry Flynt
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: RAWAT!!!!!!
Message:
RAWAT, no think bigger than that, my friend.

Ok, I concealed my identity. I'm Larry, 'Hustler' Flynt.

With advanced technology from Industrial InnerLite and Magic and from Dream-on-Works and using the stock footage of the Internet available Pammy and Tommy Lee video we are planning on a blockbuster mega-million unit sale of this, yet, untitled film.

I've got some major money and players behind me. I just need the film in my hands to get these people to front me the operating cash.

Don't fuck around with me on this. This is big time. You need to step aside or be constantly looking over your shoulder for a slow moving steam roller with your name on the big wheel. Do you understand? I need that film.

All proceeds will go directly to me and my current legal defense fund. If there's anything left over I'm gonna by a yahct and split the scene for good.

Note: the above celebrities and corporations were impersonated for entertainment purposes only. None of this ever happened. It is only your mind fighting back.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 18:49:29 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Larry Flynt
Subject: RAWAT!!!!!!: 10%
Message:
Ok: you've said too much.

I'm adding a 10% royaltees (for me) on your future income, for a 100 years.

See my lawyer.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 20:01:29 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: RAWAT!!!!!!: 10%
Message:
JM,

I think you have to do this deal for the sake of art. That's not to say you shouldn't fleece the old pornographer royally. Ten points on his future earnings (from the film, I assume) is fair enough being that you don't own any of the original copyright to begin with. It's a back alley transaction, an auspicious start for the 'real story' of the Lord of Love. I'd ask Mr. Flynt if he's planning a closed set for the bedroom shots. Should be fun.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 02:59:28 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No bedroom shots!
Message:
I don't like the idea of including bedroom shots with this film.

This is holy stuff, and I can't understand what some blonde woman has to do with this.
Anyway, you'll be my lawyer to negotiate the deal.
Thanks in advance.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 19:34:41 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Satguru has come!
Message:
I've got both Family of Love and Power of Love on videotape.

And I have Satguru Has Come too, but only partial. The first part, including young Maharaji's India Gate appearance, was accidently overdubbed with Fawlty Towers. Honest to God, I'm not making this up.

Sorry, I ain't interested in selling to Jim. Well, perhaps if the price was right.
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 10:40:54 (EDT)
From: KK
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: MAHATMAS
Message:
I've realised from reading the Forum that most premies have a vivid recollection of their initiating 'mahatma ji'. More so than MJ as an actual real life person in their lives.

It was mahatmas who in fact shaped so many of the attitudes which were developed, maintained and promoted avidly and obsessively, particularly within the ashram subculture:

always saying JSCA (remember the good old Jai sat chit anand]
('clean up your own shit')

the blessing of food ritual

their food being mahatma prasad

the altars in houses

the numerous dos and don'ts of DLM etiquette

the judgements about who was 'clear' and who was a good premie, who was 'in their mind' etc.

The power these people had was phenomenal. They could literally make or break you.

I was less aware and responsive to it because for about half of my premie life I was directly tied in with MJ and he used to talk about them objectively. He's a ........ She's a .............. Don't worry about him.................... He was very two faced in this respect.

They were also quite different when they were out of their power zone with the hoi polloi and grovelling towards Satguru's feet and anyone else's in his vicinity.

In debunking the MJ mythology, I think we need to debunk these close accessible relationships which actually embodied the wider deception.

If we can touch and crystallise the fallacies which these people imposed upon us and reject them as inane, bizarre, downright hypocritical etc, it is likely we'll get over MJ with more ease. They were his work horses, they trained the premie minds, they kept the focus on him.

How about we chat about our mahatma experiences?

Gosh, I remember Ann Johnston (Canada, older woman) telling me she left her husband, two teenage kids to join the ashram and almost never saw them again. I say almost because I asked her precisely about this in 1979 and she said 'I was travelling to satsang on the train one night and my son was on the train' Did you talk to him?' 'I just closed my eyes, remembered the Holy Name and felt MJ was my true family etc etc'. NO.

Could you imagine missing the ashram meeting convened by this person to visit your elderly grandmother or sick parent or even your family period? Or even doing so AFTER the ashram meeting for ten minutes on the way to your third satsang for the day in between bouts of service at the divine grocery store? The guilt would have been immeasurable.

I personally knew two female initiators who had relinquished very young children.

I also recall the total taboos re money and certain foods these people promulgated. God, if you looked at a bottle of fizzy drink or packet of crisps, you felt that the whole of the wrath of the Hindu heavens would descend on you.

Talking about sex. It was obviously on everyone's mind to a lesser or greater extent. People would leave when it got too much for them, wouldn't they? And then be shunned. Who would start the shunning, THE MAHATMAS, of course. To then fraternise with these sordid ex-ashram premies who were 'doing it' was to be so in your mind as to be a 3rd class premie.

The mahatmas codified the cult. They set the tone and in many ways, I believe MJ was reactive.

Yet they were always trying to read him, please him, gain an intimacy with him that was quite ugly at times. The competition was so intense, do you remember?

Any thoughts on this. Let's tell a few mahatma stories to access another way of understanding and healing.

Cheers.
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 11:04:50 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: KK
Subject: MAHATMAS
Message:
Hi K*** K

I was wondering how long it would take you to surface!
Some interesting points though
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 13:45:56 (EDT)
From: KK
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: MAHATMAS
Message:
Not soon enough, old friend. Keep reading. Interesting use of the word 'though'. Then again, we had trouble seeing eye to eye, didn't we?
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 13:55:43 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: KK
Subject: Are we in a comic book?
Message:
Not soon enough, old friend. Keep reading. Interesting use of the word 'though'. Then again, we had trouble seeing eye to eye, didn't we?

Everytime this happens, when someone posts like KK has here, and some other 'entity', often likewise fancifully named, posts like a voice from the first guy's past, I feel like I'm in a Batman comic:

So, masked marvel, you finally appear!'

'And not a minute too soon, you wicked wizard! The good people of Gotham have paid your ransom long enough!'
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 14:05:39 (EDT)
From: KK
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Are we in a comic book?
Message:
In a way, I think we are in a comic book. The key is definetely to see the humour. My friend, Mel Bourne has heralded my long awaited arrival in the way that the vanquished are received. With reluctant intrigue.
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 11:09:41 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: KK
Subject: MAHATMAS
Message:
Mahatmas were history by the time I received Knowledge in November, 1980 but I do remember my initiator and something he said right at the very end of our knowledge session which was 'If you don't practice this Knowledge you will suffer'. I've often wondered if he was instructed by Maharaji to say this or if he took it upon himself to 'motivate' us in this way.

Does anybody know? Is this something that was said at every Knowledge session?
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 11:43:21 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: KK
Subject: MAHATMAS
Message:
I'd had a bad time with Mahatma Ashokanand when he got really heavy with me and gave me a dressing down for doubting whether I should be in the ashram.

The last time I saw him was in Copenhagen. I was doing security 'service' (doing nothing) backstage and was just sitting quietly trying to meditate. Old Ashokanand was there doing his blissful smile with his hands clasped in prayer thing to some sisters until he saw me. And we looked right through each other. He looked absolutely freaked out and most uncomfortable in my presence. I couldn't understand why he was so confused looking.

Of course, a few weeks later he had left Maharaji to join Balbagwan Ji.
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 12:55:25 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: All
Subject: MAHATMAS
Message:
Does anyone remember Mahatma Adaranandji? One night during group meditation, when the lights were out, he started massaging a friend's breasts. She said it was quite blissful.

I love Mahatma Rajeshwar though. He was always dignified and kind. I remember him cooking this huge pot of rice pudding and saying 'A meeting without eating is cheating.'
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 13:02:45 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: MAHATMAS
Message:
Hi Gail,

I liked Mahatma Rajeshwar also, but he damn near poked my eyes out in a Knowledge review one time. Then he left us doing light for about an hour. I saw a million suns that day.

eb
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 13:22:14 (EDT)
From: RT
Email: mmm mm good
To: Gail
Subject: R quotes
Message:
Hi Gail, I remember Rajeschwar saying,' Thinking Causes Stinking'
which was a pre-curser, by 25 years, to 'Brain Farts'.

Now I remember him as a sort of Depock Chopra kind of human. He was the most dignified, a former judge??; yet with all that intel
he went along with the living religion cult too. Where is he now?

RT
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 13:56:53 (EDT)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Adaranandji
Message:
God he was the one who gave me K!
If you only knew how funny that was based on some recent events!!!
Katie if you have her email address you should tell her!!

thanks for lightening up my day :)))
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 14:19:02 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: KK
Subject: MAHATMAS
Message:
I agree that the Mahatmas/Initiators had a lot to do with propogating the details of the cult, because, as you know, they had more contact with the premies and aspirants and Maharaji himself only had contact with premies in very controlled situations, mainly programs, where the aura of his divinity could be maintained. I think if he had actually 'walked-amongst-the-premies' that aura would have dissipated for all the reasons you mentioned and the mahatmas would have been somewhat less influential.

Now, some of the initiators I feel sorry for. Anne Johnston's story, including the recent revelations is absolutely tragic. Sure, she was rigid and neurotic, but she was a very sincere and honorable person. To think that she trashed her whole life and dedicated it to Maharaji, who behind the scenes was making fun of her, and who just dumped her when she became a liability in his eyes is beyond reprehensible.

Other initiators were people I knew pretty well. Some were assholes/nuts, some just got chewed up in the process. I had an initiator application on file, and I'm SO grateful that it was never selected. I think it would have just made things MUCH worse for me and made it harder to get out. Plus, some of those initiator traning programs in Malibu sounded like prison, and I swear some of the people who went through them appeared to be suffering from TSD. At least Maharaji succeeded in scaring the shit out of them, with stories like the 'shattering glass' story that has been mentioned here.

I think the effect the mahatmas had also was a geographical thing. My take is that the closer a community was physically to Maharaji, the less standing the mahatma or initiator had. In Miami, for example, when Maharaji was living there and so much 'service' was going on, the mahatmas and initiators were a dime a dozen and premies didn't pay much attention to them. But in a small community somewhere, and I'm sure in places like Australia, they had much more sway and personal power over people.

In ashrams I lived in that were further from the action, like Chicago, when an initiator or mahatma came through and stayed a few weeks, his or her personality changed the entire community and really changed the ashram. Some really took advantage of this situation and abused people, and some didn't. Some were truly nice people.

Then there were the real wackos like Fakiranand and I would put David Smith in that category too. These people had psychological problems and premies who were vulneable took in in the chops.

But the sexual predator stuff still gets to me, especially if it involved children. And the fact that Maharaji knew about Jagdeo, Padarthanad, Fakiranand and Parlokanand and either did nothing, or helped these jerks escape punishment is just astounding.

The Padarthand sexual assault information is especially troubling because I understand he is currently touring. Maharaji, are you listening? Want to redeem yourself a little and do something about this?
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 14:36:18 (EDT)
From: KK
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: MAHATMAS
Message:
What happened to Ann Johnston? I lost track of her back then.

I agree with everything you've expressed. Including the pleasant character of some of these people. Julian West, Elliot Brye, Newt Gay, Rajeswar, Rajeswar's sister Bai Ji, Susan Johnston, Ira Woods, Julie Collet, Joe Natter are some memorable ones who come to mind as decent people. In my experience, these people were either entirely inoffensive and/or were really trying to be themselves throughout the whole deal.

People were reluctant to decry the Malibu experiences at the time though, weren't they? The pressure of getting through the acceptance barrier and making it must have been so intense.
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 14:55:11 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: KK
Subject: MAHATMAS
Message:
See thread below under retirement savings--material security for premies--it's her.
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 15:01:21 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: KK
Subject: MAHATMAS
Message:
Julian West, Elliot Brye, Newt Gay, Rajeswar, Rajeswar's sister Bai Ji, Susan Johnston, Ira Woods, Julie Collet, Joe Natter

Yes, with the exception of Ira Woods, who I had a couple of bad experiences with, those were all great people. Susan Johnson was a sweetheart and Joe Natter is a great guy. Although I don't recall him being an initiator. Julian West was a class act, although I don't think I ever met her. Elliot, Newt, Julie all great people. I hope they are doing well. I would also put in this category Sally Vanmanen, F Attems, and I loved Joan Apter. There are others, but middle age has clouded my memory regarding some names.

I think maybe Gail can tell you about Anne Johnston. There is a post down below in which she discusses her, I think, but Gail can confirm.

Yes, the Malibu training programs were described in a 'stiff-upper-lip' fashion by some of the people who went through them, but the body language and tone gave away the dread so many felt after having gone through that. Once Candi McNary told me she contemplated suicide during the training. I think she said she fantasized just walking into the ocean and not coming back. Of course, this was all described as being 'saved' by MJ and that he was giving her the realization that she could ONLY rely on him and that she must be 100% surrendered to him. [I contemplated going out and having an affair to put a black mark on my application so it wouldn't be selected after hearing these awful stories.]
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 16:58:11 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Yes on Ira
Message:
Thanks, JW, for pointing out Ira Woods as not being the most gracious guy. I remember him as a real creep; not that he wasn't taking orders and doing his job correctly. That's the whole problem; he was being the dope he was supposed to be.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 05:51:34 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Yes on Ira
Message:
I think it's very interesting people talking about all those really nice premies, and other not-so-nice ones. Interesting that some of the latter are still around. I ran into Ira Woods last year. I had written a small book for Maharaji which I wanted to get published. I was sure this would bring flocks of new aspirants and make plenty of money for the cause.

Ira gave me about a minute of his time, looked embarassed in a concealed way about my show of devotion and then suggested I send it to the post office box address. Good work, Ira. It seems if the wettest logs got knowledge first, the really wet ones are still around.
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 14:50:42 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: MAHATMAS
Message:
Padarthanad was just at my house the end of May. He seemed very personable. My beautiful, 20-year-old daughter went to the Indian restaurant to get him his INDIAN DINNER. The rest of the premies waited on him like he was a saint.

Chandre (my daughter) was disgusted by all the flurry surrounding his visit. I'm glad he wasn't alone with her. I was roused from my bed with a high fever to hear the latest. Script readings were to replace off-the-cuff intros for introductory videos. Follow-up videos were to be called LEARNING MORE instead of follow-ups. He had each of us practice each section of the script.

Why does MJ have a racist, perverted representative on board?
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 15:11:55 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: No! Really??
Message:
He had each of us practice each section of the script.

Gail,

Doesn't anyone ever stand up and say this is ridiculous? I mean, what if Padarthanand had shown everybody how to make funny newspaper hats and explained that no one was supposed to watch videos without them? Or shown people the right way to squat down when talking to new people? Doesn't anyone even raise an eyebrow to any of this stupidity?
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 15:40:31 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Scripts
Message:
I was hysterical. I could not stop laughing (probably due to the fever). Afterwards, I asked Lynn Devine if she intended to use the script. She said, 'It's what MJ wants!'
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 16:42:19 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Scripts
Message:
Maharaji must REALLY think the premies are idiots! Don't any of the premies feel insulted by this?
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 17:27:35 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Premies are slow to read
Message:
between the lines.

None of my close friends have been over since my defection about three weeks ago.

The only people who will read this stuff (I photocopied the whole lot including plosts up to three weeks ago) are the people who have been away for years.

The one thing I do notice is that it is becoming a frantic burden for my friends.
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 18:50:07 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Premies are slow to read
Message:
The one thing I do notice is that it is becoming a frantic burden for my friends.

What is a frantic burden for your friends? You? The forum? Maharaji's stupid, insulting request that the premies read canned introductions to his videos?

Thanks, Gail. I really enjoy your posts.
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 20:14:44 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Premies are fed up (long)
Message:
1. Rigid step-by-step procedures for video events and tracking of aspirants and premies. Everything is followed to the letter. Some rarely attend. They borrow the videos to watch at home.

2. Few aspirants? It reminds of my vacuum cleaner sales days. In the 70's it was easy pickin's, but now that people are wise to cults, you have to knock on a lot of doors.

3. Big money problems. How can you donate monthly, chip in for the venue, instructors, videos, fax machines, travelling, and Vision purchases, and support yourself on $25 000-35 000 per year? Bankruptsy is a big topic of conversation over coffee (after the video) these days. You know:

Step a) refinancing bills
Step b) consumer debt counselling (precursor to Bankruptsy)
Step c) contemplating bankruptsy for the second time
Step d) insolvency (bankruptsy)

4. Time off work. Begging the boss for time off for the 1000th time.

PROGRAMS + PROPAGATION + CASH FLOW PROBLEMS = FRANTIC FOLKS

A premie I called just before the Miami program told me that K & M were for rich people--only yuppies could afford it. He figures his GRACE is dried up.
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 22:45:09 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Premies are fed up (long)
Message:
' A premie I called just before the Miami program told me that K & M were for rich people'

It sound's like Rawat's message is finally getting through loud and clear.
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 23:09:27 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Rich premies won't stay either
Message:
These guys are suffering hell, and they don't know why.

They might feel guilty because of their wealth or something else.
The truth is they don't like the idea of m sucking their blood,
and they can't see reality.
I know some of these guys well ....
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 06:54:05 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Rich premies won't stay either
Message:
I know some premies who invented a potentially life-saving safety device, especially useful in 3rd world countries. For many years they have been slaving to do deals to manufacture it in these countries,at the right price of course.

The intention being to make a mint, for Maharaji I was told. To support him bringing knowledge to the world and freeing us all.

In the meantime they own worldwide patents on these devices and have done so since inventing them about 20 years ago. There are some copies but they are not as good. By and large, by holding out for the money, and holding onto the patents (for Maharaji) these premies are witholding the devices from the market place, from poor people in 3rd world countries. They could be saving their lives. Just like if Edison hung on to electricty and lit his own little room while the rest of the world was in darkness, waiting for the price to be right, eh? Exaggeration of same principle.

I hope Maharaji is happy that his premies understand that knowledge is more important than life. Or maybe they are just a tetch deluded. I prefer to think the latter. btw I hear they are going bankrupt too. That M must be a dumb-fuck master if he can't engineer a little financial success-type Grace in his premies'own companies, eh?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 14:46:04 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Judex
Subject: Rich premies won't stay either
Message:
What kind of device are you talking about Xpremie-ji?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 18:34:20 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Rich premies won't stay either
Message:
discretion is not my best suit & I have been hanging onto that thought for a while. I've spilled the beans on how I feel now but don't want to describe those beans too fully in case my (ex?)friend reads here. Do you have a reason for wanting to know more, or just curious?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 06:34:04 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Procedures, Gail?
Message:
Do you have a copy of these procedures & scripts?

That would be very interesting to see this, most of the premies and aspirants are not aware of this very likely.
I would like to read this!
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 10:35:46 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Procedures, Gail?
Message:
I sent them to Brian.
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 18:58:48 (EDT)
From: x
Email: None
To: Gail,RT ,Etc.
Subject: Premies are slow
Message:
Gail,RT, I've been reading some of Gail's and RT's stories about mj's new mansion, and about his recent money grubing tactics,etc. I didn't realize exactly how crass it had become lately. Its like it's so glaringly sickening and transparent that it's unbelievable this kind of thing even exists. I really don't understand how anyone could contibute hard earned money for this bs. RT doesnt even get a lunch after slaving all day? I can't beleive what I've read recently about mj selling used ties, coats etc., along with all the other trinkets. It just gets lower & lower doesn't it? I recently saw some guru give a truly incomprehensible lecture, that made mj look good by comparison. He had the same stock scene as mj, of course. Meditation + techniques. His monologue made no sense whatever, not that that mattered to his goggly eyed faithful. Duh! It's all barely worth comment, except if no one cries wolf, it will just devour more uninformed seekers trying to BUY NIRVANA(and I don't mean the album).

x
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 10:31:04 (EDT)
From: RT
Email: oops
To: x
Subject: Premies are slow
Message:
UPDATE: one indignation you drop: the items they sell ARE all new.
I meant the jcket he waore was a design they sold, not USED. Used stuff is given away for devotion to the cause.

Honest RT
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 05:53:40 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Premies are slow to read
Message:
Gail I told my first premie today. I'm with you.
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 20:26:30 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: KK
Subject: MAHATMAS
Message:
I was initiated by Rajeshwar in 1974, and never saw him again. I was impressed by the fact that he had been a judge, and that he talked very little. Your talking about 'crisps' makes me hungry.
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 22:55:57 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: KK
Subject: MAHATMAS
Message:
I have discovered I am a little more upset about the Jagdeo past than I
knew. But I do want to tell this part from my Knowledge session.

I was 13 and my memory is not completely clear on this but I distinctly
recall being very afraid at my Knowledge session that being 'reborn'
could involve dying. I was VERY AFRAID. I suspect this was my age and
that I had interpeted something meant to be taken figuratively
literally.

I remember there was a bathroom of the way of the living room area in
which the knowledge session was held. I remember that I had heard that
Mahatma Ji needed his own bathroom. I thought this was somehow part of
the Knowledge session and he would take us each in there to give us
Knowledge. I was waiting in fear the whole time for this part to happen.
I thought that maybe he would kill us in there and we would be reborn.
Part of me I am sure knew this was not true, but I know that some part
of me was not totally sure. I thought that maybe all the premies had
been killed and reborn. I hope that when who ever reads this does they
can recall when they were 13 and that at this age you still do not think
like an adult yet.

The scary part is this is so much like Jonesdown or those guys in LA. I
was still at the K session even though I was having thoughts of being
harmed there. However the indoctrination worked it was a powerful thing
that I was even in that room with those kind of fears.
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Date: Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 23:04:23 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: FEAR & K SESSION
Message:
Thanks a lot for your post(s)!

My feeling is that even has adults we've also had that type of fear.
Remember all these old time's stories, where you would shop your head off for m, or jump off the cliff?
I was freaked out too before the interview with the mahatma who would qualify me for k!
I wonder what is the feeling people who recently received k had
regarding this?
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 00:24:01 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: off with the heads
Message:
Wow, I was afraid to post this and now I am glad I did. That is EXACTLY what I was afraid of. I am pretty sure he was asking aspirants before the K session if they were willing to have their heads chopped off for the Guru. That was what I thought the bathroom was for, the possible beheading. Pretty scary.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 01:00:52 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: FEAR & K SESSION
Message:
I had a really interesting lead up to my Knowledge Session which was in Brisbane in 1995. It was very 90's in that the whole thing was done by video (no M present) and with the mahatmas standing on the sidelines helping out.

That year had been really erratic for events around the world because that was the year that Marolyn had had her aneurysm and events were being shifted and changed all over the place. One minute M was coming, the next he wasn't. All I remember was one day I'm being told by the aspirant coordinator that I'd have to fly to Brissie in a few days, the next day they'd ring back saying 'No go.' I was working full-time and trying to a) arrange to leave immediately and b) work out how I was going to pay for the expensive short-term fare was a really stressful way to prepare for K.

At one stage throughout all of this, I got really really sick with the flu - one of those flus that is dark and black and you feel like death. I knew a lot of it had to do with low immunity due to emotional stress (relationship dramas etc), and probably the tension in leading up to the pending K session.

Anyway, at that time, it was magic mushroom season in our fair land, and we had a whole fresh bunch in the fridge (as you do!) so in the depth of my sickness I thought I'm going to have my very first session with the mushies. I was tired of being sick, so I thought that they would help me push through the sickness in whichever way.

So I went outside for the whole day, sat in a beautiful natural grotto, lit a fire and took them. It was amazing, because apart from the clouds contorting in the most beautiful way, I sat for about 4 hours and cried and cried - real cellular tears. I didn't think it was physically possible to cry for so long and in such pain. I just remember feeling so 'cosmically alone', really painfully alone in the world - I didn't even feel connected to the trees which were waving at me!!

Two days after that, I found out I had to fly immediately to the K session. My partner said it was no surprise that I'd had that experience prior to my Knowledge Session. He said I would never feel cosmically alone again after I received Knowledge. (Yeah, right!)

I still had the remnants of the flu at the session, and I was desperately chugging down cough syrup so I didn't cough all the way through the session. I just remember that the two days were fairly tortuous because they never let you know when the session would be. You were always being herded from one room to the next, your names being checked, the security warding you away from the no-go sacred areas!

Now in retrospect, all of this pre K-session drama is part of the whole manipulative process of being an aspirant. By the time you get in the doors, you're ready to kill for K, as you've been kept waiting so long!

When we finally did get in, we waited watching the throne for the Big M to appear, only to find out he was a no-show. There was an air of disappointment, but most of the aspirants understood he'd made a special effort to get there and he was still the one in the video, so it still sort of felt alright. And besides, we'd finally made it, finally been one of the 'chosen few'.

Regards, TD
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 05:33:48 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: to TD
Message:
TD - wow, thanks for sharing that. I received knowledge the year after you at Amaroo. Thank you for your wonderful post. I think now that some of the crying I have done since leaving is the 'cosmically alone' thing - which I'm not,I have found. Fear is actually leaving me more and more; I had more fears at night after leaving knowledge than I ever have had. They are subsiding. Grace, by the way, is revealing itself to me daily. More than ever. Part of that Grace is stories by people like you such as your beautiful one above - thanks for the sharing.
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Date: Sat, Jul 11, 1998 at 19:57:14 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: to TD
Message:
No worries, Judex!

love, TD
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:51:44 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: MAHATMAS
Message:
Hi! I received K from Jagdeo 7/3/77 at age 19. He said how young I was and was I mature enough to practice K??? I'm surprised that so many of you were as young or younger when you received K....

The 'mahatma' that truly shocked me was Guru Charnanand. In Denver, when everyone was incredibly broke from the Festival Marathon, he came to Denver to tell us how GMJ really wanted us all to go to Rome for Hans Jayanti. He was 'giving Satsang' at the Satsang Hall. He said he knew $ was a problem and he suggested this. 'Sell your clothes, sell your cars, sell your bodies!'

Afterwards, I discussed this with my premie-friends. Some people said he was kidding. I didn't think that was appropriate to kid about in satsang. Some people said, 'Well, whose body is it, anyway?'

Maharaji's?

I love you guys. Thanks for being here.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 23:09:59 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Hi Victoria
Message:
Victoria,

I think Mahatma Ji was just kidding. But who cares now? Nice to hear from you. Where were you a premie and all that?
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:12:24 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hi Victoria
Message:
Hi Jim.

I didn't think it was appropriate to kid like that at Satsang, especially considering who he was (a mahatma, not just a premie). An INDIAN mahatma, even. If he would have said it outside the satsang hall, it would have been different. I mean, it's like the priest giving a sermon about selling your body so you can afford to go to Rome to kiss the Pope's ring, or whatever. You know?

I was a premie in Denver during 1977 and 1978. Travelled a lot during that time (lots of programs)...Portland, LA, Miami (twice), Montreal, also visited Premie communities nearby my parents -- Pittsburgh PA and Marblehead, Mass. and Jamaica Plain, Mass. Lived in 2 premie houses in Denver -- 12th & Milwaukee and 13th & Vine.

Thanks for responding. I was beginning to think nobody cared about MAHATMAS anymore and was more interested in LEGAL BS. =)

I hope people continue to post whatever they like here, since I heard that webmasters weren't responsible for what people post on their sites...and this site is the best. If INTERNET had been around 20 years ago, I never would have received K and so, never would have had to recover from it...which in many ways, I still am recovering--even though it happened 20 yrs ago and my involvement was just for a short time.

Victoria
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:35:37 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: more
Message:
Who cares...

I care. I guess MJ is giving them scripts now so they won't say shit like that. You think? Still, they can't 'un-say' it. Just another example of the bad advice that MJ's 'great souls' and spokesmen were giving on his behalf. Some people took this advice at face value -- they didn't get the joke, (if it was a joke) -- an easy out for Charnanand to say it was a joke in the event that anything would come of it...

Victoria
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 07:39:16 (EDT)
From: x
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Gurucharanand was not celibate
Message:
Gurucharanand was a bit of a 'star' of the premie world. I was shocked to find out that he had been having sex with a young girl, whose advances,(funnily enough) I had spurned righteously. (having been told sex was off-limits.) I was aspiring to live in the 'ashram' myself at the time. This makes him an enormous hypocrite in my opinion. Also Maharaji having people like him as his favorite lap dog tells me something else.
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