Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 17

From: Jul 9, 1998

To: Jul 16, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5



Gail -:- To Lina--Toronto Monitor (long -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:06:29 (EDT)
__JW -:- To Lina--Toronto Monitor (long -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:52:08 (EDT)
____Jim -:- To Lina--Toronto Monitor (long -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 18:25:57 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Hmm.. Linda? -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 18:56:42 (EDT)
________JW -:- Hmm.. Linda? -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 19:10:04 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Still laughing, can't type -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 19:12:35 (EDT)
__________Gail -:- Good Stuff! -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 20:54:45 (EDT)

Katie -:- Forum Guidelines -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 12:15:13 (EDT)
__Simon -:- Forum Guidelines -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:49:01 (EDT)
____Gerry -:- Forum Guidelines -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:57:41 (EDT)
____Katie -:- Forum Guidelines -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 16:03:24 (EDT)
____Brian -:- Forum Guidelines -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 23:28:27 (EDT)
______Gerry -:- Forum Guidelines -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 09:46:00 (EDT)
____VP -:- Slander Guidelines -:- Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 01:13:17 (EDT)

Richard -:- Deflections -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 11:12:32 (EDT)
__Passing thru -:- Quote please -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:11:50 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Shut up, PT -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:33:04 (EDT)
______Passing thru -:- Don't swear -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:52:32 (EDT)
________Jim -:- You big poo -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:02:06 (EDT)
__________Passing thru -:- ANALise -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:13:28 (EDT)
____Richard -:- Again PT????????? -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 05:31:54 (EDT)
__Judex -:- Deflections -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:52:56 (EDT)
____Passing thru -:- Inflections -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:19:17 (EDT)
______bftb -:- Inflections -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:22:46 (EDT)
____Gail -:- Please have bowel movement -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:24:59 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Mel Bourne: Be real! -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 04:20:15 (EDT)
__Mel Bourne -:- Mel Bourne: Be real! -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 05:01:15 (EDT)
____Judex -:- Mel Bourne: Be real! -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 05:11:47 (EDT)
____Jerry -:- Mel Bourne: Be real! -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:10:35 (EDT)
______Mel Bourne -:- Mel Bourne: Be real! -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:33:25 (EDT)
________Jerry -:- Mel Bourne: Be real! -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 10:15:37 (EDT)
______Judex -:- Mel Bourne: Be real! -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:08:02 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- Mel Bourne: I'm concerned too! -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:32:06 (EDT)
______Mel Bourne -:- Great concern - but action? -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 10:10:51 (EDT)
________Katie -:- forum rules -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 11:01:53 (EDT)
________Gerrry -:- Phony concern -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 11:09:00 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Don't cry about credibility -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:28:35 (EDT)
________JW -:- Great concern - but action? -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:40:01 (EDT)
________Brian -:- Give it a rest, MB -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 00:36:41 (EDT)
______Judex -:- Mel Bourne: I'm concerned too! -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:16:55 (EDT)
________Judex -:- error in above post -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:19:25 (EDT)
__________Gail -:- Doubt-maker -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 18:13:39 (EDT)
____TD -:- Melbourne Defamation -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 23:39:29 (EDT)
______canoga -:- Melbourne Defamation -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 04:08:15 (EDT)
________TD -:- Melbourne Defamation -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 07:25:09 (EDT)
______JW -:- Good Point -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 13:03:22 (EDT)

CANOGA -:- 'Shit-not' VS Legal action -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 02:00:41 (EDT)

Katie -:- To pam -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 01:26:36 (EDT)
__Judex -:- To Katie -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 04:44:08 (EDT)
____FYI : -:- KK's Posts re Pardathanand -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 10:27:15 (EDT)
______red heart -:- please define sexual assault? -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 20:43:02 (EDT)
________Katie -:- please define sexual assault? -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 20:49:19 (EDT)
__________Katie -:- legal definition of assault? -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 20:53:20 (EDT)
__________red heart -:- thanks for the info (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 22:02:53 (EDT)
________Jim -:- please define sexual assault? -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 21:10:28 (EDT)
__________red heart -:- please define sexual assault? -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 22:09:47 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- please define sexual assault? -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 23:54:21 (EDT)

JW -:- Australia -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:43:22 (EDT)
__TD -:- Australia -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 02:41:31 (EDT)
____JW -:- Australia -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:27:39 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Australia -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:44:51 (EDT)
__Judex -:- Australia -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:37:48 (EDT)
____JW -:- Aussie-ABBA -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:08:50 (EDT)
______Judex -:- Aussie-ABBA -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 02:11:35 (EDT)
________The Sid Knee Sisters -:- Aussie-ABBA -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 05:42:59 (EDT)
__________JW -:- The Sisters -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:49:56 (EDT)
________JW -:- Aussie-ABBA -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:39:50 (EDT)
__________Judex -:- Aussie-ABBA -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 00:23:17 (EDT)
____________JW -:- In English, Please! -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 00:48:39 (EDT)
______________Judex -:- In English, Please! -:- Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 08:13:27 (EDT)

Gerry -:- Mel Bourne is full of shit -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 13:44:53 (EDT)
__Brian -:- Not so sure -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:18:27 (EDT)
____Gerry -:- Not so sure -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:33:42 (EDT)
______Mel Bourne -:- Not so sure -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:03:52 (EDT)
________Gerry -:- Not so sure -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:43:11 (EDT)
__________Mel Bourne -:- Not so sure -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:56:07 (EDT)
____________Gerry -:- Not so sure -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:05:46 (EDT)
______________Mel Bourne -:- Not so sure -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:42:32 (EDT)
________________Gerry -:- Not so sure -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:53:27 (EDT)
__________________Mel Bourne -:- Not so sure -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 04:08:18 (EDT)
________________JW -:- Not so sure -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 22:24:47 (EDT)
______Stephen Harris -:- Not so sure -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:10:07 (EDT)
________Gerry -:- Not so sure -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:49:44 (EDT)
__________Barney -:- Not so sure -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 18:00:23 (EDT)
______Peter -:- premie anonymity -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 20:24:19 (EDT)
__Rick -:- Mel Boring Stinks -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 18:52:00 (EDT)
____Selena -:- toking lsd -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 20:07:08 (EDT)
____JW -:- Wait a Minute -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 22:30:21 (EDT)
______JW -:- Sorry -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 22:34:00 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Sorry -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 22:47:53 (EDT)
__________JW -:- Understandable -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 23:21:15 (EDT)
______TD -:- Wait a Minute - Melbourne -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:12:34 (EDT)
________JW -:- Wait a Minute - Melbourne -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:20:43 (EDT)
__________JW -:- Oh Yeah -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:32:32 (EDT)
____________TD -:- Mrs Hippie, Al A Bama etc... -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 02:49:01 (EDT)
______________JW -:- Mrs Hippie, Al A Bama etc... -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:21:38 (EDT)
____________Judex -:- Oh Yeah -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 05:05:03 (EDT)
________jethro -:- Wait a Minute - Melbourne -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 01:08:01 (EDT)
__________Gerry -:- Wait a Minute - Melbourne -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 01:13:34 (EDT)
______Rick -:- Wait a Minute -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 01:45:09 (EDT)
________Mel Bourne -:- Wait a Minute -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 04:31:15 (EDT)
__________Rick -:- Wait a Minute -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 12:00:39 (EDT)
__________JW -:- Wait a Minute -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:28:10 (EDT)
____________Judex -:- It's CryingTime -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:49:40 (EDT)
________Judex -:- Oz -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 05:15:31 (EDT)
________JW -:- Wait a Minute -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:25:52 (EDT)
____Scott T. -:- 'toking' or 'taking' -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 23:57:39 (EDT)
__canoga -:- Bourne is full of shit -not -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:18:19 (EDT)

bobby -:- Castaneda essay - another view -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 13:27:50 (EDT)
__bobby -:- Castaneda essay - another view -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 13:48:01 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:08:19 (EDT)
______Bobby -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:12:26 (EDT)
________Brian -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:22:34 (EDT)
__________Bobby -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:43:35 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:28:11 (EDT)
__________Bobby -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:39:55 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:53:15 (EDT)
______________Bobby -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:25:59 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:41:26 (EDT)
__________________Bobby -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:51:04 (EDT)
____________________Jim -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:05:17 (EDT)
______________________Bobby -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:14:43 (EDT)
________________________Jim -:- Okay, Bobby, you convinced me -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:22:19 (EDT)
__________________________Bobby -:- Okay, Bobby, you convinced me -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:25:55 (EDT)
____________________________Jim -:- Okay, Bobby, you convinced me -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:29:20 (EDT)
______________________________Bobby -:- Okay, Bobby, you convinced me -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:45:55 (EDT)
________________________________Jim -:- Okay, Bobby, you convinced me -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:53:46 (EDT)
__________________________________Bobby -:- Okay, Bobby, you convinced me -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:58:58 (EDT)
______________CD -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:31:17 (EDT)
________________Bobby -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:51:57 (EDT)
______CC -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:30:21 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:47:21 (EDT)
__________Bobby -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:53:50 (EDT)
____________Gerry -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:21:00 (EDT)
______________Bobby -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:54:28 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:58:33 (EDT)
__________________Bobby -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:12:28 (EDT)
____________________Jim -:- Well, since you said 'please' -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:32:08 (EDT)
______________________QQ -:- Well, since you said 'please' -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:42:18 (EDT)
______________________Bobby -:- Well, since you said 'please' -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 19:07:55 (EDT)
________________________Jim -:- Boy, are you confused -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 20:38:05 (EDT)
__________________________Bobby -:- Boy, are you confused -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 21:12:50 (EDT)
____________________________Jim -:- Boy, are you confused -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 21:48:44 (EDT)
______________________Jerry -:- Well, since you said 'please' -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:35:46 (EDT)
__________CC -:- Give me a break -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:27:10 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Why? -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 22:02:50 (EDT)
______________CC -:- Why? -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:40:01 (EDT)
________________bftb -:- Why? -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 11:42:48 (EDT)
__________________CC -:- Why? -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:13:42 (EDT)
____________________Jim -:- Why? -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:20:55 (EDT)
____bftb -:- off topic to Bobby -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:42:48 (EDT)
______Bobby -:- off topic to Bobby -:- Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:51:25 (EDT)
________JW -:- off topic to Bobby -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:07:11 (EDT)
__________Katie -:- off topic to Bobby -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:50:38 (EDT)
____________Bobby -:- off topic to Bobby -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 16:17:13 (EDT)
__________Bobby -:- off topic to Bobby -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:55:22 (EDT)
____________Judex -:- off topic to Bobby -:- Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 02:21:05 (EDT)
____Judex -:- to Bobby -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 08:23:35 (EDT)
__Judex -:- Castaneda essay - another view -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 05:34:32 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Castaneda essay - another view -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:05:15 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Wrong quote -:- Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:53:48 (EDT)


Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:06:29 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: Everyone
Subject: To Lina--Toronto Monitor (long
Message:
Dear Lina:

I understand you are reading the net in Toronto as a service (LUCKY YOU). I have a few questions for you.

1. Why are Canadian statistics not printed each year and given to donators regarding the amount donated in the country and where the money has gone. HOW ABOUT THE SUITCASES FULL OF CASH DONATIONS? All I ever got each year is a picture of MJ and a thank you note from George Legere. George seems to do well financially. He goes to all the programs world wide. He has a phone. It answers anonymously. He eats because he's still living. What's his take? The others serve as slaves, don't they?

2. Someone is spending it. Why weren't initiator visits covered by these donations?

3. Why would EV waste my money (IT HAD TO BE PAID FOR IN ADDITION TO THE MONTHLY CREDIT CARD DONATION, AND OTHER EXPENSES RELATED TO PREMIEDUMB) to send Padarthanand here to teach us how to read a script for videos? My English is better than his. Why not send the info by fax? You know: Dear Drones: Please read these inspiring words before and after video presentations. Why don't Canadian donations cover Mahatma visits?

4. If the allegations and information on this site are false, why isn't someone coming out with the corrected version.

5. You or someone else from Toronto took the time to tell the rest of the practicing premies in London NOT TO READ THE NET. Why didn't you call me to tell me the error of my ways?

6. Why are the people who handle the automatic withdrawals taking it early each month? Why does the new donation brochure that allows for automatic bank withdrawal, credit card withdrawal and transfer of stocks and other properties state:

'Elan Vital is a non-profit charitable organization. Founded in 1973, its purpose is to promote the message of Maharaji in Canada and throughout the world.'

We both know that EV was not in existence in 1973, don't we Lina. We both know that no charitable works are ever done. We both know that your community and mine have not GROWN, have they.

7. Since this is a cult, and I have seen the light FINALLY, I want my money back. Please call George and have him return it to my credit card, or do I have to call myself?

8. On a personal note, isn't your doubt-maker working overtime? How can you read all the info on this site and not be affected? If your beliefs live through this latest wave, maybe you can become one of MJ's new instructors. He said he needs them again.

PSYCHIC PREDICTION FOR ATLANTIC CITY:

Dear Premies:

Do not be concerned about the latest wave. It will pass. Shut your eyes and PRACTICE KNOWLEDGE (not meditate). Don't listen to your doubt-maker.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:52:08 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: To Lina--Toronto Monitor (long
Message:
Gail:

Excellent letter. Go, girl!

I wanted to mention that many countries, states and provinces require of non-profit charitable organizations, financial disclosure to the government, if not to individuals who donate to the non-profit. These reports are available to the public and you should be able to get them through the secretary of state, or whatever the equivalent is in Ontario. A few phone calls might reveal quite a lot.

Whats' astounding to me, is that when I talked to the department of the secretary of state's office in California that handles charitable non-profits, the registrar of charitable trusts, they told me Elan Vital became 'inactive' in 1989 and that they were told 'Elan Vital was no longer being a charitable non-profit.' This didn't make any sense, but your letter encourages me to ask a few more questions.

It's likely that Elan Vital says it existed in 1973 because at that time it had a different name: Divine Light Mission. In California, Elan Vital IS Divine Light Mission. There was just a simple name change in 1986. It's funny, and kind of weird, the Elan Vital incorporation papers are signed by 'Robert Mishler.'

I think it's interesting that someone has the 'service' of monitoring the net but then tells others they aren't supposed to. Frankly, that's a recipe for many premies to immediately do it. M understands nothing of psychology.

Jim, remember that woman from about a year ago that yelled at Mili to get M off his website? Remember she said that she 'had no choice but to report him to Elan Vital?' OOooooooo. Now, there's a threat. Wonder what Linda Gross said to her? Oh yeah, 'I don't know, but I'll pass on your message to......somebody.'

Gail, keep up the fight to get your money back. Maybe we all should do that. Let's see, nine years of income at.......
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 18:25:57 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: To Lina--Toronto Monitor (long
Message:
Jim, remember that woman from about a year ago that yelled at Mili to get M off his website? Remember she said that she 'had no choice but to report him to Elan Vital?' OOooooooo. Now, there's a threat. Wonder what Linda Gross said to her? Oh yeah, 'I don't know, but I'll pass on your message to......somebody.'

Yeah, I think her name was Betty something or other. :)
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 18:56:42 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hmm.. Linda?
Message:
Sorry, I couldn't resist:

'July 13, 1998

EV, Inc. (By fax to 818-889-6522)
5321 Derry Avenue
Suite G
Agoura Hills, CA 91301

Att: Linda Gross, President

Dear Linda:

Re: monitoring the ex-premie web site

Hi. How are you? Someone today posted a note on the Forum to the effect that a premie in Toronto has the service of monitoring the web site. Apparently, her name is Lina.

Could you tell me, please, if this is true? Does your organization ask people to keep an eye on the site? If so, who do they report to? Does Maharaji ever get apprised?

You know, one thing that I’d like to mention is that people don’t just say negative things about Maharaji there. Oh I know it can seem that way. But there’s a part of the site that’s been set aside for premies to send Maharaji messages of love and appreciation. In fact, if you yourself are having a hard time reaching him sometimes, you might think of posting a message there. Just a thought.

Sincerely,

James I. Heller'
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 19:10:04 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hmm.. Linda?
Message:
Thats rich. Yes, the best way for Linda to reach M is through US!!!

But I can anticipate the response.

Dear Mr. Heller:

As a fellow barrister, I'm sure you can understand that there are such things as rules and regulations governing corporations. As I told you earlier, I am the president of Elan Vital US, and, there are over 50 other organizations of which Elan Vital Canada is one. I don't know anything about what they do, other than invite Maharaji to instruct students in Canada from time to time, and since you say this event is occurring in Toronto, that is outside the jurisdiction of Elan Vital, US.

I don't know if Elan Vital US is, has been, or ever will be monitoring anything on the internet. If they do, I don't know who they might report to or if Maharaji is informed or not. As you know, I have no idea what went on in the early 70s. Maybe someone gave instructions to monitor the internet 20 years before it was invented and those instructions are still being carried out. But I don't know, because it was before my relatively recent involvement with Maharaji a mere 20 or so years ago. As I have told you repeatedly, nobody tells me anything.

Thank you for the offer to communicate with the Maharaji. I will consider the offer and get back to you.

Very Truly Yours,
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 19:12:35 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Still laughing, can't type
Message:
Too good!

Maybe someone gave instructions to monitor the internet 20 years before it was invented and those instructions are still being carried out.

But Joe, don't you know what this means? It means he really IS God after all? Holy shit, man.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 20:54:45 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: JW & Jim
Subject: Good Stuff!
Message:
Any day now Linda will be joining us.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 12:15:13 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Forum Guidelines
Message:
Dear people of the Forum,

I have, up until now, tried to read all the posts on the forum. But, as I said below, I cannot keep up with reading the large numbers of posts on the forum these days. Thus if anyone sees a violent threat, or notices that someone else using his or her pseudonym, or has another problem, PLEASE call it to Brian's or my attention. Please don't expect that we will automatically see it.

Also, if you want to get Brian's attention re a technical problem on the forum, either e-mail him (brian@ex-premie.org), or put his name in the post title. Putting his name in the body of the post won't work unless he happens to read it.

Thanks to all,
Katie
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:49:01 (EDT)
From: Simon
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Forum Guidelines
Message:
Dear Katie

Don't you think that it is slightly hypocritical to allow slander on your forum but not physical threats. Slander to many people is just as hurtful.

If I were you, I would discourage both.

Simon
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:57:41 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Simon
Subject: Forum Guidelines
Message:
So let me see if I got this straight...

The BM can con, lie, deceive, and basically wreak havoc on peoples' lives and that's OK, but if we call him on it here, it's hypocrisy. Sounds like cult logic to me.

Get your head out of your ass, pal.

BTW, Einstein, the correct term would be libel.

Slander is with the spoken word, libel is written. Get the difference peabrain?
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 16:03:24 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Simon
Subject: Forum Guidelines
Message:
Dear Simon -
Of course, slander is NOT encouraged on the forum, but determining whether a particular remark is slanderous is a real judgement call. We also want people to be able to tell the truth here. If there was a rule against slander, someone would have to be willing to make a judgement as to whether a particular remark was slander or the truth. Neither Brian nor I have the time and energy to review every post for possible slanderous remarks and then hearing arguments for and against whether the remark was slander or the truth. I hope you can understand how difficult that might be.

Enforcing the rule against violent threats is much easier to enforce since threats are generally pretty clear-cut. Violent threats are also frightening and intimidating, as well as being hurtful.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 23:28:27 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Simon
Subject: Forum Guidelines
Message:
Don't you think that it is slightly hypocritical to allow slander on your forum but not physical threats. Slander to many people is just as hurtful.

Technically Gerry's right about you actually meaning 'libel'. But since this forum is semi-conversational to people, slander fits too.

I would discourage it, but then I'd be kept busy deleting everything that I post, since I keep referring to that little fraud...
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 09:46:00 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Simon
Subject: Forum Guidelines
Message:
Don't you think that it is slightly hypocritical to allow slander on your forum but not physical threats. Slander to many people is just as hurtful.

I have to ask '' to whom is this 'slander' hurtful?''
Padarthanand? Jagoffdeo? BM? No, these people are sociopaths, they can mimic human feelings but do not experience them.

Then is it the cult followers? Perhaps, but they are the ones most likely to be harmed by these sociopaths. Sometimes the truth hurts, but deception is always worse.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 01:13:17 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Simon
Subject: Slander Guidelines
Message:
Simon,
I believe that TRUTH is the defense in a slander charge.
Cheers! VP
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 11:12:32 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: KK and MB
Subject: Deflections
Message:
Far be it from me to cast doubt upon anyone's motives, god knows mine are dubious enough, but Gerry, JW etc. do have a point when they question MB's style if not content.

MB, you seem prepared to go to any lengths to avoid the issue of fakery. Like many before you, you gain credit through identification with the pain and suffering of individuals but seem happy to put that down to crazy premies.

You exhort us to be careful less the BM or his cohorts have recourse to due process but ignore the fact that Maharaji has scorned the same process for years. If honesty becomes a trend, Maharaji is in the shit come what may.

It seems to me that it is YOU who might have some hard thinking to do. If you climbed out of a train wreck with only minor injuries would you caution those of us more badly damaged to hold our peace in case the train company sued us for defamation?

Do you REALLY believe you came out on top after your time in the Mish? Are you REALLY happy that Maharaji will continue to insinuate himself into peoples lives with the lie that he is God incarnate? If so fine, but be honest about it.

And KK, I am happy to swap crazy Mahatma stories but is that the real issue here? It was never a big secret that some of these guys were as mad as hatters, but we believed that they were crazy for God. A fact that Maharaji himself was only too happy to support through inuendo and bald statement.

They could never have affected the lives of so many people if they had not been sanctioned by Maharaji. I went head to head with Ashok several times and was threatened with everything from dismemberment to eternal damnation. It never bothered me because my service, at that time, was to follow him and document his attempts to recruit premies against Maharaji. See what a little perspective will do?

But did Maharaji ever go public at that time about Ashok, no because that would have been to his detriment. Thus cartloads of premies, who thought he was still kosher, were put under immense stress trying to work it all out.

Forget the crazy Mahatmas, they had no power at all without Maharaji. As for Julian West, I thought she was a stuck-up, middle-class brat with no manners. But then I was assigned her personal driver/bodyguard so I am probably biased. But she was holy, right!!!

Forget the supporting cast guys (no gender implied), Maharaji is the problem. No wonder some folks smell a rat.

regards

Richard
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:11:50 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Quote please
Message:
Dear Richard,
You claimed Maharaji was God incarnate. Could we have a supporting quote please?
PT

`
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:33:04 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Shut up, PT
Message:
PT,

This is getting ridiculous. You've already lost this point many times over. The quotes have been provided in spades. I'll provide a bunch of such quotes again, not to prove anything to you. You're just being an asshole. But because I like them and it's easy:

1)Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion?

2)Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destoryer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us.

3)I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy?

4)When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ......

5) When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, ....

6) But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth.

7) Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing...

8) So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light. **** And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:52:32 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't swear
Message:
Dear Jim,
As a person who is locked in the 70's and has not had an experience of Knowledge, and presumably any other culture other than Canadian, the statements you have presented are a mystery to you. I can understand them and they can be true.
PT
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:02:06 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: You big poo
Message:
As a person who is locked in the 70's and has not had an experience of Knowledge, and presumably any other culture other than Canadian, the statements you have presented are a mystery to you. I can understand them and they can be true.

I'm not locked in the 70s, I'm just not afraid to remember them. You ask for quotes. Well that's where he said it. The only more recent expression of this garbage I'm aware of is his statement in India that he was 'Hari' as recorded in an Indian premie publication in 1991 and sited here by JM.

You have no idea what in life I've experienced. Fuck yourself on that point, will you please?

Finally, lummox, you're right, the statements CAN be true. The point is he said it.

God, are all the current premies this thick?

Regards,

Jim
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:13:28 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ANALise
Message:
Dear Jim.
I think your comments 'fuck yourself', 'thick' and 'poo' are very telling. No thanks.
PT
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 05:31:54 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Again PT?????????
Message:
Actually PT, I was making the point (an intellectual activity) that, whilst MB acknowledged the madness of EV he was happy to put that down to crazy premies.

I was disputing this fact with him but in your case I will have to make an exception.

Richard
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:52:56 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Deflections
Message:
Good point Richard. I heard that recently one of M's bodyguards just got out of jail for murder or attempted murder. This story was meant to show that we are all sinful as well as good; it is only inside where none of this counts. But what does really count? Does anything in the external world 'count'? I live here, & while I am here, to me, it does. It's like a junkie as I said once before in a post - getting high & going to Paradaise & coming back to see the filthy rat-infested hovel their home has become - have to go out and score again.

It's ok to see you have faults and have done wrongdoings, to me, but you have to actually do something about it! Not just go and practice and it will pass or be transformed by the master or something! Anyone else with any thoughts on this?
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:19:17 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Inflections
Message:
Dear Judex,
I can't even understand your posting let alone comment on it,
PT
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:22:46 (EDT)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Inflections
Message:
Well thank God for that!

Would you please pass through already?
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:24:59 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Passing Thru
Subject: Please have bowel movement
Message:
How long will it take for you to digest MJs excretement? I see it's still passing through. You've taken enough laxative. Your doubt-maker must be working overtime. Why not let go? The anals of your mind will thank you.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 04:20:15 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mel Bourne: Be real!
Message:
I think I can understand MB’s concern quite well.

1/ If he’s not premieji’s reincarnation back from SAM, I gather he is quit close to the llr (little lord rawat) small court.
2/ From the few dozens of exes who now dare posting on the forum, we’ve already gathered some testimonies over some instructor’s criminal behavior, and llr’s attitude in regard of these facts that he’s well aware of, without any doubt.
3/ if we have some kind of belief in statistics, there might be much more cases brought to everybody’s knowledge in a near future. I personally know 2 cases of that type amongst the few premies I know well, and not involving Paddy or Jagdeo.
4/ As llr’s cult will only survive with a lot of new western aspirants, as these aspirants need a minimum of 6 months to be ready for initiation, and granted the fact they talk to each other, that many of them have or will have an Internet access, and that you can't prevent these persons to be curious about EV’s past and history :
5/ this is a serious threat to the llr’s cult.

Now Mr MB : these are facts you can’t and you won’t do anything about.
You might be able to shut this web-site, who knows, but what about the mirror-sites that will very likely appear if the threat is consistent enough.
Are you going to change all of us exes into rabbits to shut our mouths ?
That won’t work, the llr won’t give you that kind of power only HE has, and never used by the way !
Why not thinking a bit more about your involvement with a person who’s showing SO much care for his premies ?
Do you really want to keep being associated to anything like this ?
OK, I admit you haven’t been aware of this in the past, and I understand how much of a shock it’s been for you to discover these facts.
I went through this about 2 years ago, when I discovered that two of my best premie friends had been abused by two of the llr’s present full time instructors, and they were (and are) still under the shock after a few years, and that their lives are quite a mess because of this, on the affective level.
Be real my friend. That will make you a lot of good, even though the transition will be quite painful.
Your beloved cheated on you. Quite common thing.
I survived it, as well as most of other exes.
There are NO excuses to be found for Mr Prempal Rawat.
You might argue he is not the head of his organization ?
I’m asking you who is then ? Certainly not Ms Linda Gross !
Who is having all these meetings with the instructors and international organizors ? Haven’t you been part of these ? I did.
The llr will survive this, whether he teaches or not, the master is still the master (quoting him).
But YOU’ll have to survive too.
This Forum might in fact save you life for good. A bit late I agree, like it did for me and some others.

So now you’ll have to come to the logical conclusion, for YOU.

Are you going to be associated with Mr Rawat’s cult any longer ?

The proper answer to that question might save you years of your life !
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 05:01:15 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Mel Bourne: Be real!
Message:
Look, it's becoming very tiring having to justify where I am coming from all the time.

Please read my post to gerry blow, posted at 4.08. and make your judgements from there. I don't really care how you see me to be perfectly honest.

I am not some kind og agent with an agenda to close down the sight, and I guess that I am really surprised at the amount of paranoia around the place (may be that is an unfair remark).

Why don't you guys just take me at face value, I can assur you that I am not in the game of being deceptive, whether you beleive me or not is your own affair I suppose.

The only point that I have been trying to make is that

THE WAY YOU GUYS USE UNSUBSTANTIATED DEFAMATORY MATERIAL IS COUNTER PRODUCTIVE TO YOUR GOAL -- have you got that yet!

I am not making threats on behalf of myself, M or anyone else to close the site... it is merely my observation from the side lines.

You're right, though, I was shocked and upset with the two mahatmas' alleged indescretions, and maybe even find them difficult to believe, but I am open minded to the fact that they may be true especially if appropriate charges are laid, and the issue goes to a court of law and the offenders penalised accordingly.

Victims of these kind of offences should get proper support (as I suggested to Katie yesterday, in private, and assistance to be able to take the required action through the proper authorities.
If you go about it that way you may find that you have substantiated claims to make on this site which cannot be contested or refuted. Can I make it any clearer, or is my frustration beginning to show?

Is that real enough for you?
You may disagree with this view point, but I think you may at least give me permission to be able to put it.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 05:11:47 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel Bourne: Be real!
Message:
Guys, in support of Melbourne, I spoke recently with some premies about some of these matters. These premies, like all of the ones who were my friends or as close to as poss in that scene - are decent, good people. They will all be pretty shocked by these allegations, believe me. There will also be things they may have heard or half-heard and thought were rumours, or dismissed. It will send them into a bit of confusion for sure as the truth comes out. They do not mean malice, they are just trying to defend their own vulnerabilities (self deceit?). Having said that, I don't mean to be interfering at all. It is good to read the honest exchanges.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:10:35 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel Bourne: Be real!
Message:
THE WAY YOU GUYS USE UNSUBSTANTIATED DEFAMATORY MATERIAL IS COUNTER PRODUCTIVE TO YOUR GOAL -- have you got that yet!

I really find it discomforting to get involved in this issue, but for the sake of my own healing process, I find it necessary to speak up if I have something to say. Fear has prevented me from doing so for so long.

This forum is a place of healing. Should we really put a censorship on that? Maybe you don't get it.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:33:25 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Mel Bourne: Be real!
Message:
Fair comment Jerry

Do other people agree?
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 10:15:37 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel Bourne: Be real!
Message:
Do other people agree?

Why don't you ask them, Mel. Here on the forum we speak for ourselves.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:08:02 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Mel Bourne: Be real!
Message:
This forum is a place of healing. Should we really put a censorship on that? Maybe you don't get it.
Jerry I tend to agree with you. After all, sticks and stones.
(May break my bones but words will never hurt me - aussie school kids' chant).

Thinking about it, I do agree. Only what sticks can be one kind of test.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:32:06 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel Bourne: I'm concerned too!
Message:
Look, it's becoming very tiring having to justify where I am coming from all the time.
Please read my post to gerry blow, posted at 4.08. and make your judgements from there. I don't really care how you see me to be perfectly honest.


OK, I’ve read it now, I’m sorry I hadn’t read the whole thread !

I am not some kind og agent with an agenda to close down the sight, and I guess that I am really surprised at the amount of paranoia around the place (may be that is an unfair remark).

THE WAY YOU GUYS USE UNSUBSTANTIATED DEFAMATORY MATERIAL IS COUNTER PRODUCTIVE TO YOUR GOAL -- have you got that yet!

I’ll now explain you how these ‘defamatory’ materials have been extremely helpful for me, ie VERY productive to my goal.
I personally know of 2 other similar cases amongst my closest premies friends, involving 2 other present full-time instructors.
As I’ve already said, it’s been a deep shock to hear what happened to these 2 persons I love.
Can you understand this ?
Not only because I love them, but also because it means a lot regarding Mr Prempal Rawat who, I’m sure about it now, is aware of these criminal behaviors.
He was my Lord, my Savior, I had put ALL my belief in him. Now I’ve discovered he was a liar.
It took me that long to fully understand what that means, and the reasons for the consequences of the shock I’ve suffered.
Can you understand this ?
These testimonies from G’s mom and KK were very helpful in the sense they’ve expressed what I felt and what I knew from another perspective.
This forum is an ex-premies forum !
I might have helped some other exes to heal their wounds, they’ve helped me to heal mine.
That was my goal here.

Now for all the reasons explained in other threads, I don’t believe in any action from the llr against this web-site.
On the contrary : I firmly believe that MORE of these stories will be brought up to everybody’s knowledge, and help more people to leave this very doubtful guru to say the least.
This is what’s been happening since this web-site is born, and it’s very likely that it’s going to go on, and I’m sure we’ll read some more outrageous testimonies.
What might also happen, is that victims of recent crimes might very likely manifest, and lead to successful actions.
I understand that many faithful premies, pam and the llr himself will be very pissed with what happens on this web-site.
But I’m sorry, I won’t consider Mr Rawat’s well being before mine ANYMORE.

You're right, though, I was shocked and upset with the two mahatmas' alleged indescretions, and maybe even find them difficult to believe, but I am open minded to the fact that they may be true especially if appropriate charges are laid, and the issue goes to a court of law and the offenders penalised accordingly.

Whatever happens for these cases, court or no court, this is an ex-premies forum, and these people have every right to express their feelings towards their former master.

Victims of these kind of offences should get proper support (as I suggested to Katie yesterday, in private, and assistance to be able to take the required action through the proper authorities.

I know they did, from what they’ve said. This forum, believe it or not, is ALSO a GREAT support for them, please read these victim’s posts.

If you go about it that way you may find that you have substantiated claims to make on this site which cannot be contested or refuted. Can I make it any clearer, or is my frustration beginning to show?

Legal action is not enough to heal one’s problems.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 10:10:51 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Great concern - but action?
Message:
JM

I am beginning to think that we should really be taking the initiative on the issue and 'officially' taking the case to M
(This is, of course if the victims are willing to engage in such a process, of course it may not be desirable to subject them to further trauma and pain).

Basical the idea would be to 'officially' present to M that there are allegations of a serious criminal nature that will be pursued legally to punish the perpertrators through the full force of the law if verified, and that he may be culpable on the basis that he was advised of the incidents but allegedly has done nothing about it.

I think the main aim should be to make an example of the perpertrators so that the victims can feel that situation is vindicated
.
Although I agree that the forum has been useful in the healing process, I also beleive that the forum like this should not publish this kind of material for two reasons:

1. I have strong doubts that it is in the therapuetic interests of the victims to do so - I think the private counselling by members of this site with proper legal assistance to immediately bring these matters to the attention of the authorities for their action should provide the necessary healing.

2. The (dare I state it again) possibility of the forum being put at legal risk of being shut down due to defamatory action by M or alleged perpertrators. I know that it is possible to set up other sites, but why do that if practices on this site are so tight and beyond reproach that any attempts would fail. I think we have to be very thorough on these issues and even though you are convinced that no action would be taken for bad publicity reasons, you are making a BIG ASSUMPTION. A bit of self discipline on the forum and strategic legal action off the forum would be, in my view, far more effective.

I fully sympathise with your situation and read your 'lament' post
to M a few weeks ago expressing your hurt and disillusionment, I was very moved.

Please, these are my views and should be rigorously (but unabusively) debated
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 11:01:53 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: forum rules
Message:
Dear Mel -
I read your post above, and would like to clarify the forum's position on 'publishing' material (corrections by Brian are welcome, BTW, as he is the supreme authority here.)

You wrote:
Although I agree that the forum has been useful in the healing process, I also beleive that the forum like this should not publish this kind of material for two reasons:

1. I have strong doubts that it is in the therapuetic interests of the victims to do so - I think the private counselling by members of this site with proper legal assistance to immediately bring these matters to the attention of the authorities for their action should provide the necessary healing.

2. The (dare I state it again) possibility of the forum being put at legal risk of being shut down due to defamatory action by M or alleged perpertrators. I know that it is possible to set up other sites, but why do that if practices on this site are so tight and beyond reproach that any attempts would fail. I think we have to be very thorough on these issues and even though you are convinced that no action would be taken for bad publicity reasons, you are making a BIG ASSUMPTION. A bit of self discipline on the forum and strategic legal action off the forum would be, in my view, far more effective.


To address your first point - the people who have come forward and identified themselves as victims of abuse have done so of their own free will. I really don't know if this is therapeutic for them or not, but I feel that the decision to reveal their stories publically must be their decision to make. People should certainly NOT pressured to tell stories that they don't want to tell, but I don't think there has been any of this type of pressuring on the forum to date.

As to your second point, re legal action etc. I'm not going to address the legal action part, because that's definitely beyond my area of expertise. I did want to repeat some of what Brian said below in 'Webmaster's opinion', and some of what is in the Forum guidelines. So far, this has been an unmoderated forum, with the following exceptions:

We delete posts for two main reasons: violent threats, and appropriation of another persons identity (for example, someone else posting as 'Mel Bourne'). We also delete posts that contain animated GIF's or any other thing that messes up the archiving process. Brian has also blocked certain people from posting because of continued harassment and/or spamming of other posters, or deliberate flouting of the above rules. That's about all the moderation we can handle - even then, some of it has to be a judgement call on Brian's or my part. I try to read all the posts on the forum to look for these things, but haven't been able to keep up with the large volume of posts lately.

In the past, almost all of the people on the forum have expressed a preference for the forum remaining uncensored. Unless there is a huge public outcry among the ex-premies for some form of censorship, and Brian agrees with this request, then people will be able to post whatever they want within the above limits.

I hope you can understand this. I realize that having an uncensored forum entails some risks, but they are risks that Brian is prepared to take, as he states in his message below.

Regards from Katie
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 11:09:00 (EDT)
From: Gerrry
Email: None
To: Mel Boring
Subject: Phony concern
Message:
BM, I mean MB,

You are still tooting the intimidation horn and you are still full of shit. You are still rawat's lap dog in my opinion and still trying to get people to shut up about rawat's minion's and their crimes.

So ok, you don't believe KK or G's mom. You are in essence calling them liars. Do I have to quote you to prove this point? No, you know what your motives are and so do I.

People are not going to be intimidated into silence about this matter of sexual abuse, as much as you in your premie heart of hearts want them to. So you hide behind a fake name and your psuedo rational logic ''concern.''

''Take it to M'' ha ha ha this is just what I would expect out of a lap dog cultist like yourself. As if that fat fuck gives a shit other than how it can negatively effect him. You really do get it and you just hope you can scare off enough people so this issue will go away.

You want your views rigorous but not abusively debate. Why? You are full of shit. End of debate. You are the one being abusive when you deny the reality of these trusting peoples' pain at the hands of the rawat gang. You are a snake and a sneak.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:28:35 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Don't cry about credibility
Message:
.
Although I agree that the forum has been useful in the healing process, I also beleive that the forum like this should not publish this kind of material for two reasons:

1. I have strong doubts that it is in the therapuetic interests of the victims to do so - I think the private counselling by members of this site with proper legal assistance to immediately bring these matters to the attention of the authorities for their action should provide the necessary healing.


Mel,

I don't share your doubts at all. To the contrary, I think talking about this stuff, here among the only such support group of fellow ex-premies in the world, is extremely helpful for anyone interested. For lots of reasons. It allows people who feel they wre victimized one way or the other by Maharaji (I accpet Richard's point that all these abuses fall at his feet, if not his feet alone) to get it out, enjoy the small but real thrill of disclaiming the man who got us to promise to not listen to our doubts or complaints let alone voice them. It definitely acts as an ongoing bleating smoke detector -- funny how you never mention that, isn't it? All sorts of people have been alerted to Maharaji's indifference and worse here. It's only getting stronger. In an orgnization where there's no free information flow, this little Radio Free Premiedom is going to be secretly monitored by pretty well all the premies soon enough. Those that don't read it directly will pick up on the information second-hand.

And it's a hell of a lot of fun! It's cathartic. It's gossipy (people NEED gossip in life!) and it's fun.

Really, if you have any doubt that people who've disclosed abuse here have benefitted, why not ask them? Or will you maintain that they themselve are no guage of something like that?

Hey, you want an abuse story? Here's one. Mahatma Trebinanand, the dour, fat, slightly older creep from India, probably the most sullen saint I ever had the pleasure of meeting, raped a girl in Regina, Saksatchewan. She freaked out -- like really freaked out -- ended up carving an 'x' Manson-style in her forehead.

I hear she's okay now and has been for years. Got back into riding and probably has a family now (if I remember right). Guess who told me? Her sister, L, who STILL thinks Mahraji's the fucking Lord of the Universe!

(Just thought I'd throw that one out. Maybe, Mel, we should all go to counselling for that in case we can't track down the sister herself. What do you think, a couple of hours each?)

2. The (dare I state it again) possibility of the forum being put at legal risk of being shut down due to defamatory action by M or alleged perpertrators. I know that it is possible to set up other sites, but why do that if practices on this site are so tight and beyond reproach that any attempts would fail. I think we have to be very thorough on these issues and even though you are convinced that no action would be taken for bad publicity reasons, you are making a BIG ASSUMPTION. A bit of self discipline on the forum and strategic legal action off the forum would be, in my view, far more effective.

Oh this is stupid. We've already discussed this. I am a lawyer. You're apparently not. Take my advice, this threat is a non-starter. Look, some pretty extreme things have been alleged here and still your buddy, pp, hasn't done squat. Not even a simple 'cease and desist' letter.

Hey, isn't this the site where people have alleged:

1) Maharaji's an alcoholic?

2) Maharaji may have fathered one of Claudia's kids?

3) Maharaji skims money illegally from various enterprises?

4) Maharaji's a fat, slimy little fraud?

5) Maharaji was an accessory-after-the-fact to Fakiranand's attempted murder of Pat Halley (the Detroit pie incident) by helping him leave the country?

6) Maharaji lied about the incident by telling the press at Millenium that he was 'looking into the incident'?

7) Maharaji has a long-time mistress named Monica Lewis who Marolyn --surprise, surprise -- hates?

8) Maharaji cashed out at least one premie who wanted to throw herself into the darkness of this world. She just happened to be one who, he know, knew all sorts of stuff about him and also had her own potential case of sexual misconduct to allege against Mahatma Padarthanand (I love the old titles, don't you?)?

9) Maharaji only became a guru in a stupid and cynical shell game run by his mother and the then-directors of DLM. As soon as he stopped being the controllable little puppie she thought she'd raised she immedediately tried to undo her damage by announcing thta he was enver supposed to be the Lord in the first place?

10) Maharaji and his wife enjoy a 'marriage of convenience'?

And on and on and on. I know I'm missing a few choice allegations here. But the point is, Maharaji is COMPLETELY POWERLESS TO EVEN TALK WITH US. Get it?

Sue us? We all acknowledge the POSSIBILITY. That's not even an issue. But why don't you address the PROBABILITY for a change? I personally think it's a little low for concern.

Mel, you still haven't explained where you yourself stand on Maharaji. That's important because it speaks to your motivation here. It's NOT enough for you to say that your argument speaks for itself and your own view's inconsequential. If a tobacco company employee were urging an anti-smoking site to lay off it WOULD be only fair for him to disclose his relationship with the company, wouldn't it? So far, unless I just haven't seen it, you've avoided doing that.

Thus the title of my post. You, Mel, don't have any credibility. Not only are you anonymous (which is always a factor for anyone), you won't even state your real objective here. For me, you're jsut a little entertainment. The ex's, on the other hand, who have divulged the shit they went through are entirely believable to me. I find them credible. Credibility's a subjective call. And that's about all.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:40:01 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Great concern - but action?
Message:
I have strong doubts that it is in the therapuetic interests of the victims to do so - I think the private counselling by members of this site with proper legal assistance to immediately bring these matters to the attention of the authorities for their action should provide the necessary healing.

You are in no position to say this. How do you know? Also, how do you know these victims HAVEN'T also gotten counselling and investigated, at least, 'bringing these matters to the attention of authorities.' In both cases they say they DID bring the issues to the attention of M and nothing was apparently done.

Look, I work in law. I've seen how hard it is for victims of sexual abuse to bring these claims, how draining it is, and how frightening. Also, keep in mind that these victims likely now have spouses, children, as well as careers, friends and relatives. Do they want to put their them through that kind of ordeal? These are important considerations, and I don't think you are in any position to know what they feel like.

For item number two you are a broken record, Mel. I just don't think you get the fact that the chance of legal action by M is about zero and the likelihood of success is below zero. But I'm beginning to see that protecting the forum is not really your goal.
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 00:36:41 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Give it a rest, MB
Message:
The Forum was here before you found it. It's not your problem. Use it or don't use it.

As for what 'WE' should do in some sort of action - you're a big boy now. You don't need to be a part of a movement in order to move. Act if you choose to, and make your own choices. Stop flag-waving. I'm busy.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:16:55 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Mel Bourne: I'm concerned too!
Message:
I don't want to draw any direct parallel here but there is a very important one, Mel Bourne. Consider child sexual abuse. I had a nervous breakdown directly after a friend of mine in a 12 step recovery program accused one of the longest standing members of sexually abusing her infant and her 3 year old son.
There was no proof except his actions (pretty irrefutable - where does a 3 yr old learn to do what he was doing to his friend?) and other things she remembered. He also had learned to speak, and he said some things to her.
But she had no direct physical evidence because she had not caught him in the act. He was like an 'uncle', he volunteered to look after them one day a week so she could get out of the house, in her recovery from heroin addiction.
He had spent a long time getting to know her and be trusted.
I just want you to know that part of the reason I wanted to kill myself as a result of this is that I wanted to kill him because I knew he had done it. But there was no proof adn there was no support and there was no legal recourse and no nothing except everyone I knew in the world just about taking sides - who agrees and who disagrees.
And him (who I was working with in a drug detox unit - he was a councillor) - said to me 'a little breath, a sigh - and another woman will bear me'. He quoted Kabir. So think about it.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:19:25 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: error in above post
Message:
Should read he quoted Kahlil Gibrahn not Kabir. BTW, I like Kahlil Gibran. I love 'the Prophet'. That is also why it was so sinister! Do you understand?
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 18:13:39 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Mel Ancholy
Subject: Doubt-maker
Message:
Dear Mel:

I am glad to hear you are reading these posts to MJ. Please let him know that doubts abound in London. Just yesterday, when trying to give me advice, my friend said, 'Whenever I have doubts, I just sit and meditate.' Soon MJ will have no hold over the old classics, antiques, half-assed hippies as he has called us. Then what. These new androids he has made just don't stay.

He can't seem to kick start their devotional juices with his current brainwashing techniques. Third-world countries love it because they've never seen TV before. However, they are a little short on cash.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 23:39:29 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Mel & Everybody
Subject: Melbourne Defamation
Message:
Time for my two cents worth....

I am aware of the whole defamation thing on the Net which seems to be a hot topic down under at the moment and maybe this heralds Mel Bourne's emergence (although as my fellow exes have pointed out to me, his motives for being here are different than out of any concern for us or public service duty!!).

Here is the following excerpt from internet.au magazine on net defamation: (Issue 32, June 1998 p.52):

As for defamation, it's fairly clear-cut: if it isn't legal to publish something in the traditional media then it isn't going to be legal to publish it on-line. Although flame wars have become a common feature of net culture, the ISP Melbourne PC Users Group (MelbPC) was forced to settle a defamation action out of court that was brought in Britain. The case surrounded remarks that were allegedly made by a MelbPC subscriber onto a public newsgroup. The litigant, a British law professor, Laurence Godfrey, demonstrated that borders were certainly no impediment to bringing the action and forcing the ISP to cough up for the sins of its subscriber.

From my point of view, I'm grateful there are other more knowledgeable ex-premies then me monitoring this forum and I applaud Brian/Katie for all the work they do which must be pretty full-on. However, at the end of the day, I also take responsibility for my posts and read carefully through them before sending them.

The Big M remains fair game in this forum because of all the stuff that he has perpetrated for the last 3 decades. Unlike lesser mortals, the Big M, as LOTU, thought that he did not ever need to deal with his past. Well, we know he is a mortal, and a lesser one at that, and it seems the day is finally arriving where he may have to face up to his past. Over the years, the carpet of DLM/EV has had so much stuff swept under it, that it has started to move about by itself and has even started to take over the house!

Unless Big M's a masochist, he'd never want to end up in court, as it would be an ex-premie field-day!

However, lining up M in the verbal cross-hair is one thing, but say slagging off a premie we know by name could be more dodgey. For example, if I called a premie I knew, by name, here on this site, 'A Nazi', then they could (in light of the info above) take me to court if they could prove beyond a doubt that they didn't wear a swastika arm-band and persecute Jews! Couldn't they?

So, I guess I just wanted to say that, now that this has all come up.

Here endeth my bit...

Regards, TD
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 04:08:15 (EDT)
From: canoga
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Melbourne Defamation
Message:
To TD G'day
Pretty soon the 'Melborne Is Full Of---' line of discussion will trip onto my comment below it 'Shit-not vs Legal action.'
Its where I started yesterday as an answer to the barrage against what mel said when he first chimed in with the Caution

As for his intention/motives, everybody must know the guy already, and hence are herding him around, but to me he's been making some sense.

Then again , I ve been through years of litigation and watched lawyers amuse themselves, so no amount of caution seems out of place.
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 07:25:09 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: canoga
Subject: Melbourne Defamation
Message:
Then again , I ve been through years of litigation and watched lawyers amuse themselves, so no amount of caution seems out of place.

Yeah, I'm not a solicitor, but with friends/family as, I know what you mean. One great bit of advice my old man used to say to me was 'Always take file notes' in my business dealings, and I do, cause you never know when, some ugly little thing will raise its ugly head!!

TD
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 13:03:22 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Good Point
Message:
TD, point well taken.

I think the bottom line is that everyone is personally responsible for what they write about someone else. But as long as they are truthful, they shouldn't have anything to fear.

But aside from the individual making the statement, I think whether the website, ISP or whatever, which serves as a bulletin board for the statement, is liable is a much more complicated issue. My read of recent US court decisions is that they likely have little liability, as long as the website operators didn't conspire with a person making unture and damaging statements.

I don't know if calling someone a 'nazi' would do them all that much damage, however. I think it's more damaging to state that someone did some illegal or immoral thing when they didn't. And, again, if someone is a public figure, it's harder to make the claim stick

But then Al Sharpton just got nailed in New York State for how much we don't know yet, but he continually claimed that the victim committed a rape when a grand jury had already cleared him. So that was a very blatant situation. But it did involve a government officer, so the standard was higher than for an ordinary person.

JW
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 02:00:41 (EDT)
From: CANOGA
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Shit-not' VS Legal action
Message:
I dont want to type again. See below.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 01:26:36 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Pam
Subject: To pam
Message:
Hi Pam - My e-mail address is petkat@mail.trib.net (it is also in the heading above my post). I will forward that message to you if you contact me. I haven't found the post about Pardathanand yet, but will look.

Katie
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 04:44:08 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: To Katie
Message:
Katie could you also email or alert me to where the one is about Padarthenand? I need to re-read it.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 10:27:15 (EDT)
From: FYI :
Email: None
To: Judex and pam
Subject: KK's Posts re Pardathanand
Message:
KK's original post about Pardarthanand:
Bottom line re Padarthanand. Sexual assault of a 26 year old premie causing enduring trauma and emotional damage. Attempted sexual assault of myself around the same time. I reported the incidents directly to MJ. No action taken. Giant cover up. I left the organisation. The rest is sub judice to this day.

Questions from JW regarding this:
Boy, it just gets more appalling the more that gets revealed. So, Padarthanad, who is currently touring North America trying to rev up interest in Maharaji's programs has sexually assaulted two premies, including you and you personally told Mahararji about it and nothing was done. My question is this:

1. Why isn't Padarthand in jail for comitting sexual assault on at least two people?

2. Why isn't Maharaji in jail for aiding and abetting a sexual predator?

3. Why haven't all the premies in all the communities in North America been warned to keep their distance from Padarthand who has committed sexual assault in the past?

4. Why on earth do premies continue to follow Maharaji when he is obviously a morally bankrupt individual and cares nothing for the safety and security of his followers????

5. Why does all this continue to surprise me?

KK's answers to JW:
He only attempted it with me.

(1) No complaint was laid to the police because the victim was pressured to drop the complaint. This is of course a common phenomenon with sexual assault. It happened one monthe before he left Aust for an indefinite period.

(2) Because nothing came of 1.

(3) Because it's not in the interests of the cult.

(4) There are less and less old premies and a higher turnover of
new premies. People take a while to sort out the con. It took me 12-3 years.

(5) Because you retain some hope that it isn't truly the way it is. I say this with great respect (your idealism is strong which is a great quality).
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 20:43:02 (EDT)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: FYI :
Subject: please define sexual assault?
Message:
what is a sexual assault being tagged here? was it a pass or violent assault? lots of guys make passes, and get turned down or not. it's not called assault. And 26 years old is way past being a minor. Passes at children, yes, i'd call that assault, but what's with the 26-yr-old? I have not seen any direct reference to what actually happened.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 20:49:19 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: please define sexual assault?
Message:
Dear RH
KK's on vacation until the 18th, so your question may have to wait until then, unless anyone else is familiar with the details of the case.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 20:53:20 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: legal definition of assault?
Message:
Also, I believe that there are legal definitions of sexual assault. I am not familiar with these definitions, and I am not sure how 'sexual assault' is defined in Australia. KK is a lawyer, so she should be able to tell you.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 22:02:53 (EDT)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: thanks for the info (nt)
Message:
(no text)
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 21:10:28 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: please define sexual assault?
Message:
Hey, this one's easy.

In Canada a sexual assault is simply an assault with either a sexual purpose or an assult that reasonably violates the sexual integrity of the victim. If I push you, it's an assault. If I push you on your breast, in the midst of a fight, it's probably an assault. If I squeeze your breasts... (hey, calm down, Red Heart).. it's a sexual assault.

Canada doesn't officially use the word 'rape' anymore. So there's a broad specturm of 'sexual assaults' that encompass low-end assaults with a sexual purpose to rape.

Sometimes the fiduciary relationship (e.g. teacher/student, boss/employee, saint/cult member) raises the prospect of 'constructive sexual assault'. That is where there's ostensible consent for sexual contact but the consent is vitiated by the power imbalance. In other words, the law maintains that no express consent for sexual contact counts. It's all considered coerced. The law does this as well with respect to sexual contact with kids.

But what's an assault? That's simple too -- any unwanted touching.

So, let's say initiator x grabbed at some girl (or boy), tried to steal a kiss but was rebuffed? Unwanted touching? Yes. Sexual nature? Yes. Sexual assualt? Yes. Serious? No, not in relative terms.

Some people criticize the modern terminology because it captures so disparate offences indiscriminately. I think they're right, personally. I think the wording shaped itself as it did due to feminist theorists who argued, apparently successfully, that it's the spirit of the violation that counts more than the physical details at times. I think this is unfortunate because common-sense just tells us that there is a big difference between different levels of attack and our terminology shouldn't be unnecessarily vague.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 22:09:47 (EDT)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: please define sexual assault?
Message:
yes. i mean, i could see how perhaps to someone who considered someone to be 'of the cloth' so to speak, they could feel that assault was happening due to the person's 'position.' and there are still many people who respond to people involved with this group as 'religion' (though I am not one of them). for instance, i would think it would be unfair to judge that anyone called an instructor should not be allowed to be and act as a sexual being. however, over-aggression and violence is quite another matter (except of course when consensual). (okay, okay, i'll calm down, haha)
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 23:54:21 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: please define sexual assault?
Message:
i would think it would be unfair to judge that anyone called an instructor should not be allowed to be and act as a sexual being.

What do you think being an instructor/initiator/mahatma/saint was all about throughout the seventies and early eighties? The ashramies were celibates. The mahatmas were the top ashramies. We'd all promised to dedicate our lives. The mahatmas were specifically threatened by Maharaji that, if they ever 'fell' (e.g. acted as 'sexual beings') they'd roast forever.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:43:22 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Australia
Message:
I'm sure I am not the only one noticing the large participation by Australians (both pro and con) on the forum. Any ideas why that is? It must be far out of proportion to the relative populations.

It almost seems like the center of the Maharaji-cult universe is shifting to the Pacific. I know that his gauche-mansion in the shape of a heart is still in Malibu and M is, I guess, an American citizen, but it really seems like North America is dead as a door nail as far as premies, propogation and programs are concerned. Very few people receiving knowledge, broke premies, cancelled programs.

But Australia has this Amaroo facility and premies who seem to be exceptionally die-hard, perhaps due to significant indoctrination by Padarthanad and Gurucharanand over the years. Opinions? Perhaps North American premies are, and always were, somewhat more laid back about the whole thing.

I also wanted to mention that I have seen some Australians refer to their land as 'Oz'. It should be pointed out that many San Francisco residents refer to this city as 'Oz' and since Australia can in no way be as bizarre, I think we are entitled to the term. [Just Kidding.]

BTW -- two good friends of mine recently got back from a trip to Australia for the mardi gras in Sydney. They were part of a big choral group there for the occasion. They had lots of nice things to say about both the place and that the people were most accommodating and hospitable.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 02:41:31 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: thedefector@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Australia
Message:
Hi JW,

I wrote a thread in response to KK (it's now in the inactive index under KK's Comments Re Devotion, titled Another Money Perspective.) In it I talk about the big shift that has seemed to have happened in Australia.

We use Oz because most Australians are as lazy as buggery. Everything gets shortened, footy, barbie, uni, etc. I didn't know that San Fran was also called Oz. But that's great because San Fran is seen here as the sister city to Sydney. They both are very similar, what with the bay and also the fact that they have such a big gay community.

I'm a big fan of Mardi Gras. It's the best night of the year! This last year we had the police force join the parade, which was great!

JW if you're in San Fran, do you want to just send me an e-mail, so I can talk to you about something!

Regards, TD
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:27:39 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Australia
Message:
TD,

I sent you an e-mail. Hope you got it. I saw your post to KK. Very interesting. Seems M presents his fundraising rationale differntly in different countries.

Yeah, I'm in San Francisco, actually ended up here because I was sent here by DLM in 1981. Turned out to be about the only good thing that happened to me as a premie.

Actually I think the 'Oz' reference to San Francisco originated in the gay community. Ever heard of asking someone if he or she is 'a friend of Dorothy?' I think it came from that. I do recall being taken to the top of Twin Peaks in SF by someone a long time ago at night an he said 'welcome to Oz.' That was the first time I heard it.

I've heard Sydney is like SF. Do you have cold summers like we do? I'd love to come there sometime for Mardi Gras. Maybe one of these years.

Thanks for your post.

JW
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:44:51 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Australia
Message:
I'm sure I am not the only one noticing the large participation by Australians (both pro and con) on the forum. Any ideas why that is?

Joe,

Did you notice that all this activity really took off as the Croatian participation plummetted? I've got my map out but I can't figure this out either.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:37:48 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Australia
Message:
Dear JW

There is something I proudly would like to state about the Australian character. We may be a bunch of whingers, bludgers and miscreants but one thing we are known for is 'calling a spade a spade', or at least SEEING THAT IT IS INDEED A SPADE.

In other words, like a great Russian Proverb I heard in a fabulous B&W movie about Russian immigrants in NY in the 20's (title forgotten) - 'Don't piss down my neck and tell me it's raining'.

We may have the One Nation party but we have the decency to be ashamed of it.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 17:08:50 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Aussie-ABBA
Message:
Judex,

Thanks for that comment. It sounds like a noble quality.

Judex, tell me this. Are Australians as into ABBA as the reputation says? By the way, I saw Muriel's Wedding and thought it was a hilarious, and touching, film.
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 02:11:35 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Aussie-ABBA
Message:
No, it's because we're all 'dags' like TD was saying. Muriel was a real dag. But, after trying to become Mariel, I think she ended up her real self, didn't she?
No we HATE Abba so much we love it.
BTW one of my favourite CDs (I don't have many) is the soundtrack to Priscilla of the Desert. Have you seen that? Anyway, there's that really old song 'Lady, hey lady...I've been to paradaise but I've...never been to me'. Remember that?
It's a cultural thing, but honestly you would love this country. Get here while the planet is still spinning.
Fond regards,
Judex
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 05:42:59 (EDT)
From: The Sid Knee Sisters
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Aussie-ABBA
Message:
Dags rule OK!

Watch out for that Ken Tuckie and Mitch E Gan JW!

Judex/TD - The Sid Knee Sisters - lovers of high glam and ditsy tunes xxx
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:49:56 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: The Sid Knee Sisters
Subject: The Sisters
Message:
Well sisters, I don't know if down under you have heard of a group called 'The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.' For us Catholic boys they are a popular group, and if you were raised Catholic, you would get the name. All the members, who do lots of good community and charity fundraising group have great names, like:

Sister Dana Van Inquity
Sister Helen Wheels
Sister Flatunlantia Grande

In the gay pride parade they have a contingent that dresses in nuns' habits and they wear roller skates. It's quite a site.

I'll watch out for Mitch and Ken, as well as the glam and ditsy tunes.

Your honorary 'dag,'

JW
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:39:50 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Aussie-ABBA
Message:
Are you kidding? The Priscilla Queen of the Desert soundtrack is about the most listened to in my collection. The re-make of 'Go West' is an anthem that should never be forgotten. Some years ago I went to a 'black tie' fundraising event the night of the academy awards and when Priscilla won the Oscar for best costume design, the audience went nuts. It really deserved it.

I have to say that when Muriel and her friend did the lip-synch to ABBA in Muriel's Wedding, it was one of the most hilarious parts of the film.

So, this 'love/hate' thing that you dags have, like with ABBA -- do you have that about everything? I find this fascinating.

It is one of my goals to get to Sydney for Mardi Gras before I am too old to enjoy it. I do hope the planet is still spinning at that time.

Thanks for the explanation.
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 00:23:17 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Aussie-ABBA
Message:
It's sort of the joy of the spirit of fun and innocence. when all the kids get to play together no matter if they're dags or not. There are no dags, really. When we send ourselves up very seriously it's like kids taking the mickey. We love it.

Have I explained this right, TD?
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 00:48:39 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: In English, Please!
Message:
When we send ourselves up very seriously it's like kids taking the mickey.

Could you translate this into northern-hemisphere English?
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Date: Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 08:13:27 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: In English, Please!
Message:
'taking the piss' is another way of saying it!

There is a kind of irreverent free spirit attitude here. It must come from having come here (most of us) as convicts or rejects from proper society for whatever reason.

Now we are just celebrating that we got away.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 13:44:53 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mel Bourne is full of shit
Message:
This oh so rational sounding and allegedly ''concerned'' premie has but one agenda: silence the forum and criticism of the BM.

This is a thinly veiled attempt at intimidation. It won't work. He doesn't give a damn about real people, and could obviously care less about the thousands hammered by his ''master.'' The sexual abuse of children by the BM's minions are meaningless to him. He wants to protect the cult. That's his motivation.

I'm sure he'll come back and say how wrong I am about him, he really is this loving and concerned person, so let me say ahead of time: MB go fuck yourself, you jerk off. Now sue me.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:18:27 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Gerry
Subject: Not so sure
Message:
Mel Bourne hasn't posted here long enough for me to read that into his/her posts. But I have seen MB pass over the chance to out someone here and I think that says something about motive.

Not everyone who supports the Forum's existence is going to use the same words. I read concern for a resource in the theads below, not a hidden agenda to see it disappear.

Your words are a bit strong, IMHO. Unless you know this person beyond what they've posted here.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:33:42 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Not so sure
Message:
So Brian, he didn't out KK. Big deal. It doesn't take genius to understand this type of behavior could lead to his being blocked out.

You would do that for this reason, wouldn't you? I would think so. Regardless, I would think this would be a concern this person would have.

You really think his primary motive is the protection of the forum? Maybe my words are too strong, but your words sound naive.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:03:52 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Not so sure
Message:
Gerry

Of course I have shit in me, everyone does, it's a by product of eating and liable to come out on occassion. However, read more of my posts and make your judgements accordingly. I happen to believe in free speech, so go for it, I have no axe to grind with anyone on this sight, so I'm not going to sue anyone. All I am calling for is greater caution in what is published here, not he suppression of truth but ways to deal with it using other more effective mechanisms other than public defamatory denunciation. Your disbelief of my motivation is evidence of your acute paranoia. (Sorry, Gerry, my excercise of my right to free speech!)

As for KK, I am not sure of her identity, but the benefit of the doubt in not being sure and her right to privacy, ensures her anonymity.

Does this confession exclude me from further posting?
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:43:11 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Not so sure
Message:
I happen to believe in free speech, so go for it, I have no axe to grind with anyone on this sight, so I'm not going to sue anyone.

Phew, that's a load off! One less thing I have to be ''acutely paranoid'' about.

Mel Boring: Your Honor, he said I was ''full of shit'' and to ''fuck off'' and I was a ''jerk off.'

Judge: Fuck off, you full of shit jerk-off.

All I am calling for is greater caution in what is published here, not he suppression of truth but ways to deal with it using other more effective mechanisms other than public defamatory denunciation.

This is really quite funny and I can recognize your tactics which are to sound really rational and point out the 'dangers' of the activity which you oppose in order to create fear, and to distract everone from the main issue at hand. This is why I still maintain you are full of shit and that is literal as well as figuratively meant.

Your disbelief of my motivation is evidence of your acute paranoia. (Sorry, Gerry, my excercise of my right to free speech!)

Gee, first a lawyer and now a psychiatrist. You really are a clever premie. How come you aren't in the ''inner circle''?

As for KK, I am not sure of her identity, but the benefit of the doubt in not being sure and her right to privacy, ensures her anonymity.

Really big of you fella! Now how about telling us where YOU really stand in regards to BM and his cult

Does this confession exclude me from further posting?

Hey you're pretty good at twisting words around. Did your ''Master'' teach you that or is it just the by-product of being in the cult?
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:56:07 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Not so sure
Message:
Gerry

What can I say, your so full of hate, you Master sure twisted you around, so I suppose thats your excuse.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:05:46 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Mel Boring
Subject: Not so sure
Message:
What can I say, your so full of hate, you Master sure twisted you around, so I suppose thats your excuse.

Oh yeah? I just hate it when people say that to me. So what's your excuse?

Will you please answer my question? How about telling us where YOU really stand in regards to BM and his cult

If I'm wrong about you I'll apologise. Go ahead, prove me wrong.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:42:32 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Not so sure
Message:
1. I received K in 1974
2. I was a community treasurer for nearly 7 years
3. I was married with two young children at the time of receiving K
4. I lost my wife and family to an LSD toking and sex crazed ashram premie in the ashram collapse of 1976.
5. I briefly moved into the ashram for 1 year in 1980, and quickly realised that the people were so crazy that I promptly moved out . This caused me to soul search what I and the whole thing was about and made me accept responsibility for my own life
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:53:27 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Not so sure
Message:
That's a refreshing bit of candor. Sorry to hear about your losses. That must have been a rough time for you.

I lost my wife and family to an LSD toking and sex crazed ashram premie in the ashram collapse of 1976.

I briefly moved into the ashram for 1 year in 1980, and quickly realised that the people were so crazy that I promptly moved out . This caused me to soul search what I and the whole thing was about and made me accept responsibility for my own life


Man, I don't get this! Some guy in the cult steals your family and you stick around for more abuse? Move back into the ashram? I mean, duh! Wouldn't this sorta give you a hint about the caliber of the organization with which you're dealing? This just shows how difficult it is to break free and how strong the cult indoctrination really is.

So you moved out and took responsibility for your life. I think this is great. But I have to ask, do you still consider yourself a premie?
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 04:08:18 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Not so sure
Message:
Do you mean 'premie' as in 'ecstatic lover of God' or as devotee of M.

I do not feel any 'ectatic' love of God, just a sound respect for him as evidenced by the creation (by God I do not mean M).

I do not regard myself as a devotee of M, I still practice K and acknowledge that whether I like it or not, that M played the most significant role in my receiving it, if he hadn't existed then the chances are I never would have received it! As simple and as plain as that Gerry, no fuss, no 'devotion', just the fact the way I see it.

When things collapse in 1976, I didn't necessarilly see M behind it at that the time, obviously the politics of the situation is now apparent in hindsight. So, despite the bad experience in my personal situation and as I was having a postive time in meditation (luckily), not necessarilly blaming M and willing to give living with some crazy friends under the guise of dedication ago, I moved in. Even when I moved out later I still did not blame M for what really seemed like the wierd - it was just the people seemed weird.

Personally, I tend to blame the people rather than M, thats from my personal observation anyway. I guess that was because I was around the people and could see what they were like. I was never around M, so never tended to see what he was like.

I still try to practice K, I have always felt that it was a Godsend to me, it is the only thing in my life that has provided me with any sense of personal belonging. The practice of K in my bad times didn't give me bliss, but I beleive that it cleaned my wounds and thus helped my healing process alot quicker had they become infected with bitterness. I don't know what side of the current political fence this puts me on as far as exs or M is concerned.
But I see myself as primarily a human being (not premie or even ex-premie), trying to make some kind of sense of everything around me and trying get some little comfort and happiness in my life like everybody else.

Whether I am right or wrong, I have no idea, and when I die will I even know then ?

M has a personality and does things differently from the way I might had I been in his situation. Obviously he has to take responsibility for his own actions as we do for ours. and if he has been deceptive or whatever, then that may catch up with him (or maybe it won't). I don't regard that M has ever done anything to particularly hurt me, he doesn't even know that I exist. But others have been hurt in this process and I feel very much for them.

So that's where I am coming from, you will have to make your own judgments about where I am in relation to the cult
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 22:24:47 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Not so sure
Message:
I lost my wife and family to an LSD toking and sex crazed ashram premie in the ashram collapse of 1976.

Mel,

I'm really sorry about losing your wife and family. I guess you can really understand, probably more than any of the rest of us, how the families of those premies in Gainesville felt.

What do you mean 'asharm collapse of 1976' and how did that contribute, if at all, to losing your wife and family? I assume the 'LSD toking and sex crazed ashram premie' was just derranged. If you don't want to talk about this I understand, but I was wondering what you meant.

And what do you mean when you said you moved into the ashram and discovered that 'the people were so crazy that [you] moved out.' I'm sure there were ashram premies who were crazy, but in my experience they were by and large, normal, sincere, rational, intelligent people who were just in an unlivable situation. They were trying to grind all the pleasure, desire and thoughts out of their life and hence they were pretty miserable. And Maharaji had scared the shit out of them to ever doubt him and/or leave. But by and large they weren't crazy. So, what did you mean?

Thanks for your reply.

JW
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:10:07 (EDT)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Gerry
Subject: Not so sure
Message:
It is not provable, but I agree with you Gerry. I have thought
about posting about this to all of the Yoga NGs, on internet.
Then I thought about just: alt.support.ex-cult because that is
the appropriate place. Since I am not sure about the motive of
Mel Bourne, I will see what he says when he discovers his post
has increased the information of sexual misconduct being presented
to a greater readership.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:49:44 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: Not so sure
Message:
Thanks for backing me up on this, Stephen, I was starting to feel like the Lone Ranger on this. This guy is one of the trickier censors i've seen here, with his ''I'm just looking out for you own good'' line. Subtle, yet ineffective.

I have thought about posting about this to all of the Yoga NGs, on internet.

I love this idea. Good job.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 18:00:23 (EDT)
From: Barney
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Not so sure
Message:
Mel Bourne,

It would seem as if your effort to warn the site about such posting has triggered a strong protective response for legal free speech. You probably shouldn't take the attack personally unless you were really trying to create fear, uncertainty and whatever the D word is in FUD.

I mentioned below about the Church of Scientology and that situation is really, really scary. Check this site out: Scientology Kills

Those people have guts because Scientology is very aggressive using all kinds of resources - lawyers, private investigators, goons, politicians, etc.

It's all an effort to suppress criticism.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 20:24:19 (EDT)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: premie anonymity
Message:
Gerry--

I think you are probably right about MB. He/she gives hints of genuine human decency, but they seem more a play for credibility than the real thing. Giving MB credit for not outing KK is probably too generous, not necessarily because Brian would block MB (big deal) but because KK would likely then out MB. They seemed to know each other, and it occurred to me right when I read MB's first post that MB had more to lose by being outed than KK did. We've heard the stories about premies being told to stay away from the site and their email addresses being traced and cease-and-desist messages sent. Whether these stories are true or not, can you think of one premie other than Chris who has posted under a real name in recent times?
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 18:52:00 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Mel Boring Stinks
Message:
Gerry,
Thanks for having the insight to see what a dipshit Mel Boring is. What a schmuck. I wasn't sure where he was coming from until I read his response to Jim, from a thread down the page:

Of course I don't condone the processes that happened for the escape' of Fakiranand to India or Ms alleged role in the matter. If this is an issue with you maybe you should attempt to get the case reopened and prosecute it.

Mel Bourne's motives are indeed fishy. The sum total of his statements, so far, are more supportive than critical of BM. This could be evidence that Mel Bourne is an asshole. Of course, we'll never know until we prove it in court.

I'll tell you something else that's fishy, although it's only a minor point. Mel mentioned that an LSD toking premie stole his family. What cave do you have to live in, to think that LSD is toked?

Thanks again for shining a light on him.
Rick
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 20:07:08 (EDT)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: toking lsd
Message:
Great minds think alike. That stood out to me also.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 22:30:21 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Wait a Minute
Message:
Hey, Rick, I'm suspicious too, but let's see what Mel has to say. By the way Peter, I think Mel is using his own name, so he is 'outed.' He seems to have also outed the gender of KK. I don't know if that is intentional or not.
'
I think if he were completely protective of M he wouldn't mention yet another sexual atrocity among premies, even if he is making it up, which I have to reason to believe he is. It's just possible that Mel is on the fence questioning things. Sometimes people are reticent to say that straight off.

I don't think Mel has succeeded in scaring anyone from posting because of legal action. But it might be interesting to hear his story. It does sound unique.

JW
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 22:34:00 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Sorry
Message:
Sorry, I meant to say, I no reason to believe Mel is making up the story about losing his wife and family.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 22:47:53 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Sorry
Message:
Yeah, JW, you might be right. Indeed, I think you are. Mel can't bring himself to outright support M because the words don't sit that well with him. My guess, anyway.

Now why did I just assume KK was a guy? I feel pretty stupid about that, especially in light of her Padarthanand story. Duh!
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 23:21:15 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Understandable
Message:
Now why did I just assume KK was a guy? I feel pretty stupid about that, especially in light of her Padarthanand story. Duh!

Understandable mistake. How many women in positions of power, especially around BM do you recall in DLM/EV?
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:12:34 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Wait a Minute - Melbourne
Message:
By the way Peter, I think Mel is using his own name, so he is 'outed.'

JW, I think he's using Melbourne (the second largest city in Australia as a pseudonym) otherwise his parents made an unusual choice!!

Cheers, TD
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:20:43 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Wait a Minute - Melbourne
Message:
Thanks, TD, silly me.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:32:32 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Oh Yeah
Message:
Actually, that last post was from one of the following:

Phil A. Delphia
Al A. Bama
Mrs. Hippie
Minny Appleus
Sid Knee
Frank Furt
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 02:49:01 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Mrs Hippie, Al A Bama etc...
Message:
You're a big dag JW! (Dag is an affectionate word which means a piece of shit stuck to a sheep's bum!) Very silly, but funny! Homer Simpson is a classic dag!!
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:21:38 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Mrs Hippie, Al A Bama etc...
Message:
Thanks TD, I guess. Had to see how that word can be used 'affectionately' but I'll take your word for it.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 05:05:03 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Oh Yeah
Message:
More potential pseudonyms for really mature ex-premies:

I.P. Daily
Eileen Dover
Ranita Purass

(from 3rd grade)
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 01:08:01 (EDT)
From: jethro
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Wait a Minute - Melbourne
Message:
Isn't Mel Bourne a film director or producer? I've seen the name on lots of movies.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 01:13:34 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: jethro
Subject: Wait a Minute - Melbourne
Message:
Do you mean Mel Brooks? Very funny guy, IMO.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 01:45:09 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Wait a Minute
Message:
Hi JW,
I do have a different way of being suspicious than you, but I think Mel stepped over the line for me when he said Of course I don't condone the processes that happened for the escape' of Fakiranand to India or Ms alleged role in the matter. If this is an issue with you maybe you should attempt to get the case reopened and prosecute it. This statement reveals an attempt to deflect the focus from maharaji's corruption by insinuating that charges haven't been proven. It's been pointed out to Mel a few times that questioning maharaji's corruption can save other people alot of aggravation and pain. Mel just keeps repeating the same tired shit. When asked if he would still consider himself a premie, he just disappeared. I realize I may be wrong about him and if I am, I will duly apologize and check my shit-disturber detector.

By the way, you referred to Oz as in the Wizard of Oz. In the case of Australia, I believe Oz refers to Aus (short for Australia), pronounced Oz. I first assumed you recognized this, but when you mentioned you missed the Mel Bourne reference, I thought 'Hey, wait a minute'. Just a thought.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 04:31:15 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Wait a Minute
Message:
'This statement reveals an attempt to deflect the focus from maharaji's corruption by insinuating that charges haven't been proven.'

The point is Rick, have the charges been proven? If not, then you are on extremely shaky ground if you make accusations of this magnitude!

Incidentally, it is aid that I have revealed some extra sexual indescretion that has not otherwise been mentioned on this website. The allegations havet NOT been made by me. Could someone please enlighten me, or check the thread below under 'OUTRAGEOUS', ( may be archived) to see if this is the source of this confusion.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 12:00:39 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Wait a Minute
Message:
Mel,
No, the point isn't whether the charges are proven. According to those who are legally trained, around this site, no one is on shakey ground. You've been shown several times that what you're concerned about is unlikely.

No, Mel, the real point is where you're coming from... what you really intend. And after reading your post to Gerry, I'd say 'You're full of shit, brother.' Your response about being a premie reads 'I'm a premie, but I'm not a premie.'

You sound open to consider that maharaji has been less than honest and honorable but refuse to bear any thoughts or feelings against him. Just that others who feel abused should go through the proper channels (not this website).

You my friend, are full of crap.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:28:10 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Wait a Minute
Message:
Hey, Mel. You've made your point. As I mentioned above, got anything else to say?

Also, Mel, I thought you mentioned you lost your family to a sex-crazed premie. This is awful and I'm very sorry, but it does, in my book, constitute yet another sexual atrocity in the anals of Maharaji's cult. Obviously it has nothing to do with the Jagdeo and Padarthanand allegations.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 14:49:40 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: It's CryingTime
Message:
Guys but I can't help but feel that Mel Bourne might be in for a bout of real pain if these allegations hit home. After all, he did lose his wife and children to this asshole cult, and has probably been blaming himself for it ever since. Good work, the truth shall set you free. Feel on if you need to, Mel Bourne.

BTW I have to add that the bringing out into the open of the child sexual abuse I mentioned earlier (which had been going on for some time - the shock was it being found out) - and me having a breakdown were connected but one was not a direct cause of the other.

It was all of the lies and cover-ups I had inside of me that caused my breakdown. And I got best therapy in the world and it changed my life. AFter 20 years of suffering I became re-born through psycho therapy. Then I went and joined Maharaji's sect. And now I am here, in the company of 'no shit'. I love it.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 05:15:31 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Oz
Message:
New Zealanders will tell you, though that there is only one 'God Zone' (God's Own Country), which is in the North Island, near the Coromandels, a beautiful bay of islands.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 13:25:52 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Wait a Minute
Message:
Rick, the only point I'm making is I don't know what Mel's motivations are and that fact that he brought up stories that are unflattering to M and his organization indicated he isn't entirely an apologist for M. It may be more of a mixed bag, who knows?

But now that Mel continues to restate his point that has already been refuted, I'm not so sure.

Hey, Mel, don't be a broken record. Got anything else to say?

Regarding Oz, the Aussies have been using that term, that's why I asked. It was spelled 'Oz.'
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 23:57:39 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: 'toking' or 'taking'
Message:
Rick:

It might just be coincidental that MJ is 'toked' and LSD is 'taken.' On my non-standard keyboard the 'o' and the 'a' are next door. It could have been a typo.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:18:19 (EDT)
From: canoga
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Bourne is full of shit -not
Message:
Hey peanut gallery!-- he may be green because of the 'toking'
but what he actually said about allegations needing to go through the proper channels if the victims were ready AND to research what the situation is legally didnt seem to far out to me.
* this internet forum could be the spingboard for some action*
Also there are two threads to the lawsuit business.
* one thread had to do with the two creeps aforesaid. I won't presume to comment on that. I'd be in for the big M if it was my kids. But that is easy to say when I have not been through it. * The other lawsuit thread has to do with a Brainwashing-
Addiction-Emotional-Manipulation Class Action Suit. I speak of here of a UN action. through the World Court. They are making corporations accountable for damages, emotional and physical.
As to whether a cult can be prosecuted, if I was to research that I'd probably ask the ex- Mormons. we would lose-but feel good
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 13:27:50 (EDT)
From: bobby
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Castaneda essay - another view
Message:
Castaneda essay
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 13:48:01 (EDT)
From: bobby
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: Castaneda essay - another view
Message:
In the end, it's the work that mattered, whatever its provenance. In the end, it was the man who mattered; for those of us lucky enough to come within his range, nothing was ever the same again.

And if, in the end, Don Juan never existed?

For my own provisional answer, I think of Peter
A. Bien, translator of Nikos Kazantzakis' The
Last Temptation of Christ, who dealt with a
similar question when asked whether he believed
in all the miracles associated with Jesus. 'I realize
much of what we know about him is novelistic,'
said Bien. 'But I act as if it isn't.'


In Spring of 1973 I met Castaneda at Stony Brook, Long Island. To me he seemed a remarkable presence.

Satsang was taking place out there at the University and one premie mentioned that we might not get so many folks at Satsang because Castaneda was showing up to speak. I jumped at the chance to see Castaneda.

Castaneda's books had affected me strongly. In 1969 had read 'Teachings of Don Juan'. I went on to experience powerful connections with images in the book during some 1969 psychedelic sessions. Then came the books 'A Separate Reality' and 'Journey to Ixtlan'. Some of the shamanistic metaphors expressed in these books continue to influence me today.

For me, 'reality' ain't all that clearcut. It's not a question of either / or. Reality for me is a statement of experience and wonder and yes, dreamlike imagery.

Recently I had bouts with cancer. The symptoms are gone. The doctors use words like 'amazing' and 'miracle'. For me, the healing is a shamanistic process the most important elements of which are emotions, spirit and relationship to body.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:08:19 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bobby
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
Bobby,

Your new age fairy dust is making me crancy. Castenda was a LIAR. His books were FALSE in that he FOOLED people into thinking they were TRUE. They weren't. There was no Don Juan.

I'm not sure just how fuzzy you like things, but you're going to have to live in a world thta includes fraud, buddy. Castenada was a perfect example no matter how much he influenced you. Fraud, liar and con artist.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:12:26 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
Give me a break Heller and fuck off
you ignorant asshole

YOU are a liar and a fraud.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:22:34 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Bobby
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
Nice to see you two playing so nicely together again. Glad to hear that you're doing better Bobby. Still feisty, I see :)
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:43:35 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
Thanks on the 'doing better'. I am doing better.

Feisty is not synonymous with doing better, but yes I am feisty when attacked. I prefer kindness and acceptance of diverse frames of reference, but will 'lay down' for no one, surely not the ignorant bullying behavior of Heller esquire.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:28:11 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
Bobby,

You look so beautiful like this. I wish I could give you a big kiss. Listen, I happen to know all about Castenada, more than I ever care to, actaully. The guy's a fraud.

You, on the other hand, are the real thing, aren't you?

Holy shit.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:39:55 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
yeah I'm for real.

I express my feelings and what is meaningful for me.

You on the other hand, trash everyone's meaning.
Meaning and context are totally empty to you. So is human spirit.
You offer nothing of your own. No personal context. No meaning.
You are an obnoxious bully.

You know nothing of what Castaneda speaks, yet you pretend to understand the whole thing. You even go so far as to say 'good riddance' upon his death. This to me is the height of arrogance.

You are one hell of an arrogant son-of-a-bitch Heller.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:53:15 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
You know nothing of what Castaneda speaks, yet you pretend to understand the whole thing. You even go so far as to say 'good riddance' upon his death. This to me is the height of arrogance.

Well, I can tell you that if you were to pick up a copy of Carlos Castenada:Academic Opportunism in the Psychedelic Sixties by an anthropologist named Jay Fykes, you'd be looking at a cover that I designed. No, Bobby, you might not like it but that's part of your very unfortunate refusal to grow up. The world is real. It isn't just whatever we want it to be.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:25:59 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
Hey Jim. Just cause you can't tell your ass from a hole in the ground ain't my problem.

If anything, the controversies surrounding Castaneda are greater than ever. But some of those who knew him well have arrived at a provisional answer.

'He had a genius for introducing people to the possibility of seeing other realities,' says Gloria Garvin, a former member of Castaneda's inner circle, 'but there was never a Don Juan. He knew shamans. He did a great deal of research over the years, often under other names. And he would journey and dream, and stimulate amazing journeys and dreams in the people around him. '

'I had astonishing experiences with Carlos that are difficult to explain,' says Douglass Price-Williams, professor emeritus in
anthropology and psychiatry at UCLA. 'You see, you can't say his work is factual, but you can't say it's false either. It's so much more complex than that. He did have profound experiences of his
own. And he had a great deal of ethnographic knowledge. He also engaged in elaborate role-playing that he pushed to the point that I think he could no longer tell the difference. But the thing that set Carlos apart was his genius for taking all this and communicating it in a way that truly moved people.'

Larry Peters, an anthropologist and psychotherapist who has done extensive fieldwork with Nepalese shamans, puts it another way: 'Carlos was an expert navigator of that other world. Frankly I believe Don Juan was an entity - a spirit, if you will - that Carlos encountered while dreaming. There is a deep wisdom in his texts that cannot be regarded as either fiction or knowledgeable fabrication.'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:41:26 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
Bobby,

Only idiots and crazy people really believe there's no reality. You aspire to that state of confusion which is kind of disturbing, if you must know. There are facts in the world, Bobby. Sometimes they're not that easy to find, but they're there. Like, either Oswald shot Kennedy by himself or he didn't. A lot of people have said a lot of words, developed a lot of personalities around the issue, spent a lot of time thing about it but, in the end, either he did or he didn't.

Same way, Carlos either did or didn't tell the truth. I happen to know that he lied. He also categorically stated that his books were NOT fiction. So there it is. He's a liar. He exploited a lot of peoples' trust to make a lot of money and that's about the end of it. His housemates at UCLA knew him as an outrageous bullshitter. He just found a way to get rich conning people, starting with the anthro faculty at UCLA.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:51:04 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
>>>Only idiots and crazy people really believe there's no reality. You aspire to that state of confusion which is kind of disturbing, if you must know.

Speak for yourself sucker. My reality is quite different than yours. This is very true. The fact that you need to insult and demean what I find to be true is the height of arrogance. Evidently I do disturb you. That's cause you are so fucking gridlocked in your materialistic reality of meaninglessness and pomposity.

You really have no clue about what we're discussing regarding Castaneda? Did you even read the article I provided the link to? I doubt it. You are interested in nothing but tooting the clown-horn of your own twisted and strictured reality semblance.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:05:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
Bobby,

My little ol' reality don't need no fancy baby talk to prop it up. It either is or isn't raining. Carlos either did or didn't meet Don Juan. You either are or aren't fucked.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:14:43 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
Well you sure as hell *are* fucked Heller.

The rain on your loathsome parade is piss.
Baby.
You are a pig.

Nuff said.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:22:19 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Okay, Bobby, you convinced me
Message:
Bobby,

You're right. Castenada WASN'T a fraud. Nice talking with you.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:25:55 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Okay, Bobby, you convinced me
Message:
Yeah, great.

Glad you see the light.
Must have been my 'baby talk' or 'new age' babble.
Asshole.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:29:20 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Okay, Bobby, you convinced me
Message:
Glad you see the light.
Must have been my 'baby talk' or 'new age' babble.
Asshole.


Now don't go over-analyzing things. You know how that spoils the moment. Just be with yourself, Bobby. Go put on your Shaman outfit and go down to the flea market.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:45:55 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Okay, Bobby, you convinced me
Message:
Hey I've got my shaman outfit on!
I'm on my way to the woods for exercise -- a shamanic run and commune with nature. The woods is traditionally for me a place of healing.

Be cool if I would see you there, wouldn't it? We could engage in a battle of the warriors. Of course, I hate to clue you, but you'd get your ass kicked. I think not getting your ass kicked has been your problem all along.

You've got a big mouth Heller. You talk a lot of shit. You've led an overprotected life. From spoiled rich kid to Maharaji to criminal lawyer to rich overindulgent yuppie who bashes people and seems to think he's helping them. Well, for some that maybe true! Interesting world we live in. Is it raining yet?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:53:46 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Okay, Bobby, you convinced me
Message:
Bobby,

Are you challenging me to a duel or something? Based on your favorite 'Highlander' episode? I guess you think that's real too, huh?

Bobby, if being overprotected means that I keep my mind free from new age confusion such as you love to swim in, yeah, that's me. But why are we even having this argument? Why don't you just agree that you are confused? You can then explain how confusion, contrary to popular opinion, is a wonderful state. Quote me some Alan Watts or something. I'm sure you can find someone who'll prop you up there.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:58:58 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Okay, Bobby, you convinced me
Message:
You are confused Jim. You and your materialistic pontifications. I'll say it again, you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. Sorry you can't swim. Guess you need to find another savior.

What's *Highlander*? I don't watch much TV.
Is that anything like *Teletubbies*?
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:31:17 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
2 divergent reviews of Jims favorite Castaneda book

The second 5 star review with the title:

'A reader, 01/22/97
Truth takes longer to disseminate than fiction.'

is apparently by the author who identifies himself as 'A reader' until you read the review.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:51:57 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
Interesting reviews!
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:30:21 (EDT)
From: CC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
Dear Jim

Have you never read a work of fiction and found it inspiring? Does everything have to be literal for you? No wonder you gave up on MJ!

There are many things in this world that do not belong to actual factual existence, but lend to the glorification of life. In fact, what goes on soley on the mental or spiritual planes can have enormously more impact than mere physical history. This kind of materialism leads to a very blinkered view of reality and most people that I know who hold to it are extremely unhappy.

Go on, take the plunge, jump off the edge of the cliff...

CC
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:47:21 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CC
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
Have you never read a work of fiction and found it inspiring? Does everything have to be literal for you? No wonder you gave up on MJ!

You're right. I should have danced around with my Maharaji buttons and big Lord of the Universe placard just long enough to get thirsty. Then, when my mum came to the window I could cry, 'Mummy, I'm thirsty!'. Then she coudl get me a big glass of cold, cold water and I could keep playing with my friends.

There are many things in this world that do not belong to actual factual existence, but lend to the glorification of life.

Yeah? Name one.

In fact, what goes on soley on the mental or spiritual planes can have enormously more impact than mere physical history. This kind of materialism leads to a very blinkered view of reality and most people that I know who hold to it are extremely unhappy.

Sorry, cupcake.

Go on, take the plunge, jump off the edge of the cliff...

Hey! Great idea!
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 15:53:50 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
>>>Go on, take the plunge, jump off the edge of the cliff...

Hey! Great idea!

GO FOR IT JIM!
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:21:00 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
God, Bobby, you really are a hoot! And a lot of fun to have on the forum. You sure liven things up. It's great to hear about your recovery. I think you really enjoy wrangling with Jim. I certainly enjoy reading it.

Hope you feel free to share your spiritual experiences of late on the MagicalMysteryTour
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:54:28 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
Seriously, I prefer gracious and mutually respectful sharing of perspectives. Obviously that's not where Jim is coming from.

I honestly don't know where Jim is coming from. His outrageous slams are pretty bizarre to me.

I do admit that some of this is pretty funny. Unfortunately, there's a lot to say that doesn't get said because of the crass and persistent insults. And bottom line is that I don't like to see people hurt. And I think people do get hurt through the insult modes at times.

I'll be sure to post some updates to Magical Mystery.
Roll up for the mystery tour.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 16:58:33 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
The only thing that gets 'hurt', Bobby, are some outrageously stupid ideas. Didn't your mamma ever teach you how to debate ideas? Guess not.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:12:28 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
Well the only outrageously stupid ideas I see are yours.

I don't want or need your tired materialistic debates. Debate doesn't solve anything anyway. Your mind is made up. You parrot the same old party line here that you regurgitated on day one of this forum. All you want are converts to your arrogance so you can shove it to Maharaji and try to exact your petty revenge.

If you want to debate, try answering the quotes I posted above. They are pretty clear to me and indicate where I stand on the Castaneda matter. And they are from well-credentialed interests. Here, I'll post them again.

'I had astonishing experiences with Carlos that are difficult to explain,' says Douglass Price-Williams, professor emeritus in
anthropology and psychiatry at UCLA. 'You see, you can't say his work is factual, but you can't say it's false either. It's so much more complex than that. He did have profound experiences of his
own. And he had a great deal of ethnographic knowledge. He also
engaged in elaborate role-playing that he pushed to the point that I think he could no longer tell the difference. But the thing that set Carlos apart was his genius for taking all this and communicating it in a way that truly moved people.'

Larry Peters, an anthropologist and psychotherapist who has done
extensive fieldwork with Nepalese shamans, puts it another way: 'Carlos was an expert navigator of that other world. Frankly I believe Don Juan was an entity - a spirit, if you will - that Carlos encountered while dreaming. There is a deep wisdom in his texts that cannot be regarded as either fiction or knowledgeable fabrication.'

The truth is that I suspect I once again waste my time with you. You probably think all shamans are frauds. I honestly think you are a bigot of the primary sort. I've seen you insult and dismiss whole cultures in several places on this very forum.

Once again I reiterate... you wouldn't know your ass from a hole in the ground.... or one that bit you either.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:32:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Well, since you said 'please'
Message:
I think I will adress your quotes.

The first guy interests me. Was he on the faculty at UCLA when the department got bamboozled into giving Carlos a Phd.? Carlos lied to the committee and dissembled like crazy when they asked for his field notes. To the eternal shame of the department and school, the committee simply backed off demanding proof, accpeted Carlos at his word and the rest is history. This Price-Williams guy is being a little too precious with his 'you can't say his work is factual, but you can't say it's false either'. The fact is, you can very easily say it's false. It's false.

As for Carlos' ethnographic knowledge, Bobby, just read the Fykes book to see how outlandish that compliment is. Carlos ripped off the Huichol's to make up his tale of Yaqui lore. It's a gross chapter in academia. Contrary to your empty bluster, I DO know a lot more about this particular subject than you. Lots.

As for Peters' opinion, he can think whatever he wants. The truth is that there was no Don Juan and Castenada was just a good story teller. Not even that good, really. The truth is, even as fiction, the books lose their appeal early on. Vague, cliched new age fluff. I'd rather watch all three Karate Kid movies.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:42:18 (EDT)
From: QQ
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well, since you said 'please'
Message:
Quack, quack
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 19:07:55 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well, since you said 'please'
Message:
>>Was he on the faculty at UCLA when the department got bamboozled into giving Carlos a Phd.?

Don't know.

I studied with a professor at Temple University who was an associate of Castaneda at graduate school. Honors Anthropology two semesters. Most of the students dropped the course. They couldn't get the primary anthropological concepts of culture; ie - other cultures are structurally entirely different than our own. They think and image in different modalities. They are by no means either more or less ontologically sound than our own rationally based culture

Dr. Ruby taught that Castaneda had much of value to report. Based on my own personal experiences I fully agree.

Jim, you live in a two bit world. Like computers. Bits are on or off. Unlike you and your limited either / or, I experience a whole palette of experiences, sensations and perceptions that cannot be confined to 'on or off'.

You mentioned before about the rain. You said it's either raining or not. What about the snow, the mist, the damp air? Is it raining in a rain forest of perpetual moisture? Does it rain in the far north where the precipitation freezes as it falls? There are innumerable worlds and climates. To just say its raining or it isn't kind of forces the point, does it not?

>>Contrary to your empty bluster, I DO know a lot more about this particular subject than you. Lots.

I don't agree. I don't think you understand the shamanic perspective at all. In your profoundly shallow world view, you neither conceive nor concede the existence of other worlds. I've lived some of these other worlds Jim. Honest.

>>>The truth is, even as fiction, the books lose their appeal early on. Vague, cliched new age fluff. I'd rather watch all three Karate Kid movies.

I consider the early books as very well written. Captivating, enthralling. I highly recommend A Separate Reality and Journey to Ixtlan.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 20:38:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Boy, are you confused
Message:
Bobby,

You don't get it, do you? It's not about ontologies and modalities, it's about honesty. Castenada LIED. Don't you know what that means? Are you so awash in new age bubble bath that you can't open your eyes a little?

Here's what Fykes says about his own book:

'As an undergraduate I was heavily influenced by the books of Carlos Castaneda. After I began learning first-hand from Huichol healers and singers, the problems with Castaneda's version of American Indian spirituality became evident. I was amazed at the amount of indifference and hostility I encountered among academic anthropologists as I did my investigative research. Some professors threatened me with lawsuits. My first publisher, Madison Books, abandoned publication of this book because of threats of litigation. When I and two other Huichol scholars sent complaints about the professor who made those threats the Ethics Committee of the American Anthropological Association did nothing. In fact, the Ethics Committee is now defunct and there are no professional standards enforced among American anthropologists. I guess that means academic freedom is unlimited. Although I did more than 20 radio interviews nationwide, Carlos Castaneda, Academic Opportunism and the Psychedelic Sixties has been curiously neglected by the mainstream print journalists. I deduce from this that debunking sensational and misleading accounts of American Indian shamans and ceremonies is less 'sexy' than publishing them was almost 30 years ago. I am convinced that eventually the truth about authentic Indian shamans will be more widely disseminated. The net is a great way to bypass the academic censors and official reviewers. I apologize to readers for the technical elements in my book. I look forward to doing another edition of this book.It will include the failure to deal with ethical issues within the profession of anthropology. This must be seen as an important public issue. My ability to write clearly for a general audience has improved since I wrote Carlos Castaneda, Academic Opportunism and the Psychedelic Sixties. My latest book, Reuben Snake, Your Humble Serpent, is written for a non-academic audience. It is the biography of one of America's greatest contemporary spiritual and political leaders.'

The guy lives, eats and breathes Huichol. He has certainly, as they used to say, 'gone native'. Do you think HE doesn't get what anthropology's about? Don't be ridiculous.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 21:12:50 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Boy, are you confused
Message:
Confused?
It's you that are confused. Sucker.

Go stroke your own like yr pal Fykes does with his self-serving 'review'.
Some fucking peer review.
You are totally clueless.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 21:48:44 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Boy, are you confused
Message:
You don't even know what we're talking about, do you? Let me remind you:

1) Bobby posts one of his 'there is no reality' posts only this time it's packaged as a defence of Castenada.

2) I said what I'd said before, that Castenada defrauded UCLA to get his Phd. and ripped off the Huichol Indians in the process.

3) You told me that I didn't appreciate the subtleties of anthropology. Sorry, 'modalities'.

4) I reminded you that Fykes IS an anthropologist and asked you if you thought that HE didn't appreciate the modalities (ontologically speaking, of course).

5) You posted the above nonsense. Look, Fykes isn't my friend. I don't even think the book is well-written. Your complaint that Fykes wrote a self-serving review is stupid. It's not a review idiot, more like just an author's comment. Sort of like a preface. So what's wrong with that?

Asshole.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:35:46 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well, since you said 'please'
Message:
The truth is, even as fiction, the books lose their appeal early on

This I have to disagree with, Jim. As fiction, Casteneda's novels entranced my drug crazed alchohol soaked adolescent mind from cover to cover.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 17:27:10 (EDT)
From: CC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Give me a break
Message:
Dear Jim,

You really are a crass neanderthal (is there any other kind!).

'You're right. I should have danced around with my Maharaji buttons and big Lord of the Universe placard just long enough to get thirsty. Then, when my mum came to the window I could cry, 'Mummy, I'm thirsty!'. Then she coudl get me a big glass of cold, cold water and I could keep playing with my friends.'

err... not quite sure what to make of this but you are 50% on the way to being committed... I will come and visit you of course. (And for your information, I am not a premie.)

'Yeah? Name one... grunt grunt'

Well, just about EVERY ideology you can imagine is exactly that, an ideal myth that has never been experienced in reality. But they help to shape every aspect of culture nonetheless. (I don't really expect a neanderthal to understand this so prehaps you could get someone to explain that one to you.)

'Sorry, cupcake. Snort... grunt...'

A remarkably intelligent TWO word reply. Please don't apologise to me for being neurologically challenged. You are obviously some sick ex-premie with very little between your ears.

'Hey! Great idea! grunt grunt...'

Amazing... a one word sentense followed by a two word sentence. Now I think you are definitely showing off. Jim... really... what would your Mummy say!

CC
;-)
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 22:02:50 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CC
Subject: Why?
Message:
Why, CC, do new agers always have the worst sense of humour? Do you have any idea how that works?

Anyway, you said:

Well, just about EVERY ideology you can imagine is exactly that, an ideal myth that has never been experienced in reality. But they help to shape every aspect of culture nonetheless. (I don't really expect a neanderthal to understand this so prehaps you could get someone to explain that one to you.)

Try to understand something really simple. All those 'myths' you're talking about? You know, the culture shaping ones? People actually believed them at some point. The myths were different cultures' best attempts at understanding the world. Now we've grown out of them. We know, for example, that there's no need to sacrifice people to get a good harvest. Right?

Now, the question is, what do we do with all these old myths? I say we appreciate them for what they are, old stories that we now know are wrong. To try to sustain them or make them glow in the dark by sneaking a little bit of truth value in under the edges is dishonest and unnecessary.

We no longer need astrology to tell us when to go to war. Besides, we can finally understand a) where astrology came from; b) how it 'worked'; c) that it really DOESN'T work; and d) why people fell for it. So what to do? What to do with all the pretty charts and romantically dusty old tomes? Well, I guess you can have some fun looking the shit over but, if you're going to defend any belief in it, you're just hiding from reality. We've grown past it. And we've grown past justified belief in most new age or spiritual beliefs, regardless of how many people held them over time.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:40:01 (EDT)
From: CC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why?
Message:
Yo, Neanderthal. I like to keep you guessing man. I am NOT a new ager... just like winding the local wildlife up a bit.

You have a very narrow classification of belief and myth. The entire perseptual mechanism is dependent upon belief. Old myths can fuck themselves for all I care, but don't try telling me that we (youself included) don't substitue new myths in their place. And the whole thing about myth is that it is often transparent to those who have been indoctrinated with it.

You think you are a realist. You delude yourself into thinking that you are able to see reality as it really is - in the raw. That is why you are a Neanderthal and that is why you come across as such an arrogant jerk on this forum.

CC
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 11:42:48 (EDT)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: CC the flamebaiter
Subject: Why?
Message:
And do you think you're coming across as anything but flamebait?

Do you think you're really going to upset Jim with your infantile taunting that even you don't believe?
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:13:42 (EDT)
From: CC
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Why?
Message:
Dear bftb

'And do you think you're coming across as anything but flamebait?'

To flame me you would need half a brain, unless you are just going to tell me to fuck off. If you do have half a brain, then I will bother to respond. If you don't (as your message suggests) then I don't give a shit what you think of me or call me.

'Do you think you're really going to upset Jim with your infantile taunting that even you don't believe?'

Err... assumption. How do you know I don't believe what I write even though what I write might not be the primary motive of why I write it. As for 'infantile', thank you.

Have a nice day :-)

CC
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:20:55 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CC
Subject: Why?
Message:
CC,

Do you really think you're going to upset Biff with your infantile taunting that you may even believe?
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:42:48 (EDT)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: bobby
Subject: off topic to Bobby
Message:
I usually try to avoid saying I told you so but....I knew you'd be fine and I told you so!

I am very happy to hear this.Congratulations.

Hope springs eternal.
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Date: Sun, Jul 12, 1998 at 14:51:25 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: off topic to Bobby
Message:
Thank you bftb.

This whole process of healing is amazing.
I attribute my success with this cancer to openness to healing, wanting to be here, shamanistic frames of reference, Buddhist frames of reference, a healing support group, Chinese medicine and low doses of chemotherapy. In that order.

The doctors count nothing but the chemo as effective. Still they say 'amazing' and 'miracle'. A couple of weeks ago the tumors were too big to operate. I had stage four cancer and was given a 25% survival rate after 5 years. If I had taken them up on their desire to do radiation I would now not have saliva glands and my chances of necrosis of lower jaw would shoot way up.

I've been having very beautiful spiritual experiences which sorry to say I won't be sharing on this forum. The meaning and beauty is too precious to be slandered.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 00:07:11 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: off topic to Bobby
Message:
Bobby, congratulations on your recovery.

Did you go through chemo? I saw my brother go through that and have some understanding of how crummy that feels. I assume you are done with that now.

Best of luck.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 09:50:38 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: off topic to Bobby
Message:
Bobby,
I was so pleased and surprised to read that your symptoms were gone - it really is miraculous. I know you worked really hard on your healing. I hope that the work that some of the folks on this website put in helped a tiny bit as well (we try, anyway!).

Keep on taking care of yourself,
Katie
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 16:17:13 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: off topic to Bobby
Message:
The caring shown by some of the folks on this website has meant a lot to me. The support, prayers, visualizations and well wishes I know have had a lot to do with my healing. It is miraculous and I truly appreciate the love and support!

Thank you one and all.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:55:22 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: off topic to Bobby
Message:
Hi JW,

Thanks for the congrats.
Much healing has happened but I suspect I'm not out of the woods yet.

My symptoms are gone, ie. the tumors are gone. However there are some feelings I still have in my neck. The feelings are very subjective. Hard to tell what's going on. The fact that the tumors are gone is amazing to both the doctors and me. Last month they didn't even want to operate because the tumors were so big.

A big part of this healing process is emotional for me. And spiritual. Lots of big changes happenning in my life. The healing happens in its own timing. To me, much of what is happening represents long term completions. These long-term completions include completions on the imagery I experienced as part of my near-death experience of 30 years ago. Amazing stuff.

I had 5 sessions of low-dose chemo. The doctors wanted radiation and chemo. I said no to the radiation because of the long-term permanent effects. I tolerated the chemo very well. One side-effect was that I only got 4 hours sleep a night. I did pretty well on that, but that represented a big change from my normal 6-8 hour sleep periods. My energy was actually *better* than average for periods. No nausea. No hair loss. I did well and to me that's another miracle. Several people I know had it much worse than I.

A big part of my healing includes Chinese herbs, nutritional and vitamin supplements, visualizations, meditation, Buddhist mantra, prayers, support and prayers from friends. A big part of my healing to me is the realization that I want to be here. I haven't always felt this way. I'm a near-death survivor. If you read the accounts of other NDE survivors you might notice that ambivalence about being in a body on planet earth is very common.

I think this cancer is a progression of the Lyme Disease I had (have?). I was diagnosed with Lyme last October. I'm not sure if the Lyme is gone or not. I had Lyme for at least a year and a half before diagnosis. Strange stuff, all this illness. I always thought of myself as a pretty healthy person.

Regards,

Bobby
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Date: Tues, Jul 14, 1998 at 02:21:05 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: off topic to Bobby
Message:
Dear Bobby,
Just read your posts above about how you healed. How fantastic - that you actually got such a wonderful result - you must be over the moon about it. (words can't describe obviously).

I want to share that I have been having some similar experiences to what you describe. I did not have cancer, but for the past few years was coming out of past depressions, completions as I mentioned elsewhere here. Intensely low self esteem at times.

Recently I have had a burst of joy - I am just full of it (and I am not mad!). And today I remembered a big dream I had many years ago (age 17) before the LSD and everything else. The dream was super clear and today I remembered it all.

All the events that have been happening recently were described in the dream. It is truly astounding. I am blown away at the moment, though I know I will come down to earth - though I not in the same place as before. I am sensible but ecstatic. I feel as though I have achieved my life journey or path. I don't know whether this is the end of my life or a new beginning.
Lots of love, you healer, you miracle
Judith
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 08:23:35 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: bobby
Subject: to Bobby
Message:
Recently I had bouts with cancer. The symptoms are gone

Bobby - just read your post - wow!! I'm so pleased for you and it's just more proof that when people can 'hang in there' and don't stop believing - miracles can happen - or the closest thing to. What else can I say - whatever you're doing - keep doing it! congratulations! viva life!
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 05:34:32 (EDT)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: bobby
Subject: Castaneda essay - another view
Message:
wow Bobby. Stunning.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:05:15 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Castaneda essay - another view
Message:
As a person who is locked in the 70's and has not had an experience of Knowledge, and presumably any other culture other than Canadian, the statements you have presented are a mystery to you. I can understand them and they can be true.

Yes, Judex,

Stunningly stupid.
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Date: Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 15:53:48 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Wrong quote
Message:
wow Bobby. Stunning.

Sorry Judex,

That was the quote I meant to comment on. My point being that Bobby's post was stunningly stupid. But then I guess you new agers like it that way, don't you?
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