Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 2

From: Apr 9, 1998

To: Apr 16, 1998

Page: 3 Of: 5



bobby -:- easter message -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 09:54:42 (EDT)
__David -:- easter message -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:35:53 (EDT)
____bobby -:- easter message -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 21:12:51 (EDT)
______David -:- easter message -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 09:38:15 (EDT)
__bill -:- easter message -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 20:33:48 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- easter message -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 13:10:47 (EDT)

Vacol -:- My Testimony..12 -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 07:47:43 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Time to tie things together -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 15:59:38 (EDT)
____brian -:- Time to face yourself Jim -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 17:31:01 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Time to face yourself Jim -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:26:14 (EDT)
________brian one -:- Jehovah Jim -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 23:32:53 (EDT)
__________A juicy one -:- Language barrier -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 00:49:09 (EDT)
__________JW -:- Jehovah Jim -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 13:56:03 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- The importance of the quotes -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 15:15:45 (EDT)
______________Jack -:- The importance of the quotes -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 21:18:24 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- You're partially right, Jack -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 22:19:43 (EDT)
__________________Jim -:- Holy shit, I meant 'sisters'!! -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 22:35:47 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Mock stupidity -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 17:53:42 (EDT)
______Brian -:- Time to take a break, Bruce -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 23:57:20 (EDT)
____Vacol -:- Time to tie things together -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 21:18:22 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Sorry, no -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 21:32:10 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Vacol, I can't believe you -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 22:01:51 (EDT)
__bill -:- My Testimony..12 -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 21:07:31 (EDT)

brian -:- Brian has risen -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 07:28:52 (EDT)
__Petrou -:- All hail Brian -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 09:57:00 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Hey, what's going on here -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 16:46:17 (EDT)
______Petrou -:- Hey, what's going on here -:- Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 07:03:35 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Petrou - -:- Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 10:37:16 (EDT)
__brian -:- Brian has risen -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 16:35:47 (EDT)
____Brian -:- Brian has risen -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:57:51 (EDT)
____Petrou -:- Brian has risen -:- Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 07:06:24 (EDT)
__John K. -:- for brian p. -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:13:43 (EDT)
__bill -:- You answered question #1 wrong -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:19:09 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Bill, you're onto something -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:23:20 (EDT)
______bill -:- Bill, you're onto something -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 21:18:51 (EDT)
____John K. -:- Family = bad -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:33:01 (EDT)
______VP -:- Family = bad -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 23:16:46 (EDT)
______bill -:- ultimate ruler= bad -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 21:33:30 (EDT)
________John K. -:- ultimate ruler= bad -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 22:04:16 (EDT)
__________JW -:- ultimate ruler= bad -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 01:13:03 (EDT)

The real gumby -:- counterfeit revival -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 00:20:03 (EDT)
__Jim -:- counterfeit revival -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 16:09:49 (EDT)

Mirabai -:- relaxation therapy -:- Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 21:30:06 (EDT)
__David -:- relaxation therapy -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 09:06:01 (EDT)
____Mirabai -:- We are all human -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 19:49:06 (EDT)
__Jim -:- by the way -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 16:58:53 (EDT)
____Mirabai -:- Complex.yes...Jim & everyone -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 18:04:20 (EDT)
______Anon -:- Complex.yes...Jim & everyone -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 18:54:23 (EDT)
________Mirabai -:- Complex.yes...Jim & everyone -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:31:27 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- My apology to Mirabai -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:51:04 (EDT)
________Jim -:- You can't change the facts -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:45:17 (EDT)
__________Katie -:- You broke your HTML!! -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:51:33 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- My sincere apology to Katie -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:55:36 (EDT)
______________Katie -:- My sincere apology to Katie -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 21:05:33 (EDT)
__________Vacol -:- You can't change the facts -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 21:35:55 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Almost interesting now -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:10:49 (EDT)
____________Scott T. -:- You can't change the facts -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 09:34:41 (EDT)
______________Scott T. -:- He could have become 'decent' -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 09:54:19 (EDT)
____________JW -:- You can't change the facts -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 14:43:13 (EDT)
__________VP -:- To Jim-Tshirt offer -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:48:13 (EDT)

Vacol -:- Objective Facts. -:- Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 21:12:20 (EDT)
__Scott T. -:- Soak time. -:- Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 21:22:10 (EDT)
__VP -:- Objective Facts. -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 00:30:03 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Objective Facts. -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 16:24:13 (EDT)
____Scott T. -:- Lord and Hamster -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:41:32 (EDT)
____Scott T. -:- Sorry, my mistake. -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 00:46:54 (EDT)
__JW -:- Objective Facts. -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 13:16:31 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Well said, JW -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 16:59:59 (EDT)
______JW -:- Well said, JW -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 17:12:10 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Well said, JW -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 18:16:25 (EDT)

Brian -:- Hmm.. It worked -:- Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 19:41:47 (EDT)
__Katie -:- Hmm.. It worked -:- Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 19:45:47 (EDT)
__Brian -:- Archive is Online -:- Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 21:54:30 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Archive is Online -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 17:17:32 (EDT)

gumby -:- Ahhh shucks, I feel hurt! -:- Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 19:03:59 (EDT)
__Katie -:- Ahhh shucks, I feel hurt! -:- Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 19:07:18 (EDT)
____gumby -:- Ahhh shucks, I feel hurt! -:- Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 19:09:07 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- Ahhh shucks, I feel hurt! -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 15:30:24 (EDT)
__Pat Strong -:- Ahhh shucks, I feel hurt! -:- Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 21:39:21 (EDT)
____Scott T. -:- Loverly addiction -:- Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 23:37:57 (EDT)
______Pat Strong -:- Loverly addiction -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 09:32:27 (EDT)
________Scott T. -:- Loverly addiction -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 10:33:15 (EDT)
__________Pat Strong -:- Loverly addiction -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 15:04:50 (EDT)
____________Scott T. -:- Loverly addiction -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:36:11 (EDT)
____________VP -:- Praying to Maharaji -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:31:19 (EDT)
______________Pat Strong -:- Praying to Maharaji -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:46:37 (EDT)
________________VP -:- Praying to Maharaji -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:50:57 (EDT)
____gumby -:- Ahhh shucks, I feel hurt! -:- Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 23:43:06 (EDT)
____bill -:- To Pat Strong -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 01:10:10 (EDT)
______Scott T. -:- Clarification -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 08:27:10 (EDT)
______Pat Strong -:- To Pat Strong -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 09:49:04 (EDT)
________Jim -:- To Pat Strong -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 17:12:47 (EDT)
__________Pat Strong -:- To Pat Strong -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:55:18 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- To Pat Strong -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:58:29 (EDT)
______________Pat Strong -:- To Pat Strong -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:49:22 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- Tell me, Pat -:- Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 23:17:57 (EDT)
__________________Pat Strong -:- Tell me, Pat -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 08:36:54 (EDT)
____________________Jim -:- Tell me, Pat -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 14:30:17 (EDT)
______________________Pat Strong -:- Tell me, Pat -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 17:36:02 (EDT)
________________________Jim -:- You call that an answer -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 18:08:04 (EDT)
__________________________Pat Strong -:- You call that an answer -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 21:05:39 (EDT)
____________________________Jim -:- Pat, me boy -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 22:09:43 (EDT)
______________________VP -:- Tell me, Pat -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 19:22:09 (EDT)
________________________Jim -:- Tell me, Pat -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 19:24:54 (EDT)
______________________bill -:- Dinnertime -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 21:47:23 (EDT)
________________________John K. -:- M is with us always -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 22:31:58 (EDT)
__________________________Jim -:- M is with us always -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 23:26:56 (EDT)
____________________Robyn -:- Tell me, Pat -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 15:47:39 (EDT)
______________________Robyn -:- PAT -:- Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 10:20:38 (EDT)

Vacol -:- My Testimony..11 -:- Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 18:20:10 (EDT)
__Jim -:- You're being silly, Kieth -:- Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 18:27:15 (EDT)
__Lg -:- My Testimony..11 -:- Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 20:42:13 (EDT)
__JW -:- My Testimony..11 -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 17:35:34 (EDT)
____Jim -:- I Am Vacol's Best Friend -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 18:13:58 (EDT)
______JW -:- I Am Vacol's Best Friend -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 18:51:01 (EDT)
______Anon -:- Bad Eggs -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 18:52:00 (EDT)
________VP -:- Bad Eggs -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 19:58:32 (EDT)
__________Anon -:- Bad Eggs -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 20:15:18 (EDT)
____________Rick -:- Bad Eggs -:- Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 20:30:50 (EDT)
______________JW -:- Food Tripping in the Cult -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 00:24:54 (EDT)
________________Robyn -:- Food Tripping in the Cult -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 13:39:21 (EDT)
__________Robyn -:- Bad Eggs -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 13:32:08 (EDT)
________JW -:- Bad Eggs -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 00:33:27 (EDT)
__________Vacol -:- Bad Eggs -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 03:10:56 (EDT)
____________Anon -:- I can think high thoughts too! -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 05:46:21 (EDT)
____________JW -:- Bad Eggs -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 12:26:23 (EDT)
__________Anon -:- Bad Eggs -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 05:24:35 (EDT)
____________JW -:- Bad Eggs -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 12:45:20 (EDT)
______________Katie -:- Bad Eggs -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 13:20:47 (EDT)
________________Vacol -:- Bad Eggs -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 20:11:23 (EDT)
__________________Katie -:- Bad Eggs -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 20:42:22 (EDT)
________________VP -:- No Shoes, Katie -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 22:26:48 (EDT)
__________________Katie -:- No Shoes redux -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 22:46:48 (EDT)
____________________Katie -:- No Shoes redux redux -:- Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 22:49:15 (EDT)


Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 09:54:42 (EDT)
From: bobby
Email: bobby2@mindspring.com
To: Everyone
Subject: easter message
Message:
easter message

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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:35:53 (EDT)
From: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: bobby
Subject: easter message
Message:
It's good to see you posting here again, Bobby but is your Easter message of no words something which is too profound and subtle for me to comprehend? Like the sound of one hand clapping?

Or is it just a software error?
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 21:12:51 (EDT)
From: bobby
Email: bobby2@mindspring.com
To: David
Subject: easter message
Message:
The easter message is a link to a graphic that must be clicked on. The message has got to be seen to be appreciated. Plus there is certain context that might only be applicable in the US. Try to access it, if you can't get it, I'll send you a copy by email. I got my copy this morning and loved it.
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 09:38:15 (EDT)
From: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: bobby
Subject: easter message
Message:
My Internet Explorer couldn't connect to it so I downloaded it using zmodem.

Very cute, I like it! Thanks Bobby.
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 20:33:48 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bobby
Subject: easter message
Message:
Hi robert!
How are You?
What have you been thinking?
Where are you at right now?
Have you been here posting as trent? just kidding.
Happy easter and beyond.
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 13:10:47 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: bobby
Subject: easter message
Message:
Dear Bobby,
I feel like I know you, a bit. I've been working on an Archive Digest (yes Brian, I haven't forgotten, exhaustion, work and easter slowed me down but I'm BACK!) and have read your posts and am glad to 'meet you in person' such as it is. I am fairly new to the forum and have made the 'chart' participant created, judging our presence here although I didn't get an award.
I loved your easter message and posted it in the drafting and computer cartography labs at the college where I work. Thanks!
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 07:47:43 (EDT)
From: Vacol
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My Testimony..12
Message:
I am one Vacol. It may seem confusing and contradictory that my posts can be so critical of M and premies and yet also so full of praise. Black and white is more comfortable....but I prefer the grey.....until I really know. Why should this not be so?
I hate fear. I don't want to be afraid of E.V...or premies ....or instructors.....or Maharaji.....or Jim.....or myself.
When I received darshan from M at Amaroo I felt no fear...or overwhelming awe. I was able to look M in the eyes and say thankyou. I did not feel any need to kiss his toes.
On the most fundamental level of our beings M and I are equals.....as we all are. It is a matter of realising that or not. I am conscious of my ego (sense of individuality.....me and mine), but why should ego or mind be a problem?
I only need to remember who I am. This is a tricky thing.
Knowledge or any effective meditation, is simply a way to refocus beyond the narrow confines of the ego, body ,mind, emotions....and re-identify...re-experience....remember the dynamic yet peaceful silence within.
Grace is a word that points towards the truth of being.
Words like Grace, Truth and even Consciousness are not born from a desperate longing to sound profound or to appear spiritual.
They point to realities(for me)...ever-present. If only one could withdraw from the involvement with all the externals long enough to realise them.
M ,, for me is no holy man...no saint....indeed, on a personality level I can find many faults with him. Perhaps he is a realist.
I dismiss the claim that he is a perfect master. But never the less I believe in the sincerity of his vision.....but in the end ...'beauty and ugliness are in the eyes of the beholders.
It's so very personal...isn't it?
We all agree or disagree according to our predisposed dispositions.
Regards Vacol.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 15:59:38 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: Time to tie things together
Message:
'Vacol' (if you insist),

Listen, friend, believe it or not, I feel a lot of compassion for you. I think I can relate to your identity schism. Obviously, everyone who was once a premie for any length of time crossed over into the 'spiritual' view that you are not your ego, that your mind is some foreign radio station etc., and then successfully crossed BACK into reality. (Yes, I use that word). I really feel for you. Honestly.

Now, V, you've got think carefully. We've evolved over countless centuries with brains that can think, articulate and reason. There is no other way to be a human being. The most radical dadaist, or punk nihilist artist you can think of, is just scratching a bit of the paint off rationality. At the end of their performance piece, where they've cut off their lover's arms in front a very select audience, and shocked everyone including themself with their bold defiance of reason, at the end of that, when they reach for their smokes, they still get pissed off if someone's taken them. Rationality.

Similarly, the most ascetic, childlike mystic, the one who's dedicated himself to conjuring visions of every possible deity and comic book superhero you can think of, no matter what, tries to make sense of the world around them. There is no other way, it's called being human.

You're at a point where you realize Maharaji is a liar. YOU may 'reject the claim that he's a Perfect Master.' I got news for you, HE doesn't. What he is is a very insidious dream-turned-nightmare for those of us who fell under his sway. Long before you got involved, we beckoned to the east for this kind of genie. One that could make us forget ourselves and strive, we thought, for something better. We asked for this illusion and now, to the extent that we've indulged in it, we have to break it.

Maharaji once gave a satsang at his 133th or 14th birdthday party, I think, which became known as the 'pinata' satsang. In it, he said that the mind was like a pinata and we, as devotees, had to break it. Well, he got that part right. Only the pinata is our trust in him. That's the tie you've got to cut.

Now how are you going to do that? This brings me back to reason. We have the ability to discern truth from illusion. If I told you I was an angel, not a human, I'm sure I'd have to pass all asorts of tests beore you'd believe me. And if I ever somehow tricked you into thinking I'd passed any one othem, and you later saw taht I'd only faked it, you'd reassess the whole thing.

One of the ways Maharaji tricked us was with his outraegously confident prophecies. You can read, you see for yourself how he says that he has 'absolutely no doubt' about this impending apocalypse he threatened us with back in '71. Look, you might not personally have depended on that and similar claims of his to become a premie, but Maharaji didn't come to you in a vaccuum, that was the stuff that established his authority such as it was.

Now we look again, we see that it was a lie, and it's time to step right back to the beginning and ask the inital question al over again: why should anyone believe ANYTHING this guy has to say?

Maharaji won't 'renegotiate' the contract, if you will, because he knows that if he even opened the door a bit, and subjected himself to even the slightest scrutiny, he'd get a very angry bum's rush from a whole lot of people, people he has successfully kept in place as compliant, smiling premies for decades now.

You going to let him get away with that? Suit yourself. For me, though, I value myself a little more than what it would take to throw my life away to sustain someone else's very pathetic delusion.

Boy, I'm going on and on, I seem to have lost my inital thought (I'm typing this on my girlfriend's cheap, noisy keyboard. As if I weren't Mr. Typo man to begin with!).

You need help, V. You REALLY should read the Guru Papers was what my inital point was, by the way. You're NOT going to find the answer 'within' becuase one of the things Maharaji has done, as do all good cults, is fuck with your radar system. Lordie, Lordie, how I wish that book were available when I first 'came in from the cold.'
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 17:31:01 (EDT)
From: brian
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Time to face yourself Jim
Message:
Jim,

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but there has been no nuclear annihilation of the earth.

The thousand years of peace has begun for those who want peace

M.has never been a liar. Thanks for the spelling check. No point in subtle words jokes with you.

M. has kept his promises.

You said to Vacol

Now we look again, we see that it was a lie, and it's time to step right back to the beginning and ask the inital question al over again: why should anyone believe ANYTHING this guy has to say?

Its a mirror my friend. Time to wake up.

brian
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:26:14 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: Time to face yourself Jim
Message:
Brian,

First, friend, don't you think it's a little rude to leave your identity so subject to confusion with the first Brian? Can't you 'Brian2' or something?

Anyway, friend, you're right. There HAS been no nuclear destruction. That's why it's a little funny that Maharaji said:

Now the time has come. God is going to show His anger over the universe, just like a cherry bomb explodes, and when the reaction stops,then one understands how powerful the cherry bomb was.

Before the explosion, nobody understood how much power the cherry bomb had. Now the cherry bomb is going to be fired, and you will all see when this thing will explode, and how it will react over the universe. Everythnig will be completely peacful after the explosion.


I don't get your point. The guy was clearly wrong. This, my friend, is what they call an 'apocaplyptic prophecy'. It's a mainstay of millenial cults. Anyway, the point's so obvious. You're just not looking at it.

Like when Maharaji said:

a clear picture is given that within a very short period, the whole universe will realize the Knowledge of Self, and there will be one kingdom of Truth and Harmony.

Despite his 'clear picture' he didn't know what he was talking about, now did he?

Or:

all their actions are enough to give me complete proof that there will be one banner of True Name all over the universe completely. There is no doubt about this. The time is very near. The whole universe will enjoy perfect peace and happiness, forgetting all sorts of differences, under the shelter of the banner of True Name.

Is this not the epitome of the empty promise?

Or how about:

Now the play of God is going to be finalized in a very, very excellent way.

28 years later and what?

You know the Jehovah's Witnesses have this same problem. They've predicted the end so many times that the only people who could possibly take them seriously are, well....Jehovah's Witnesses.

Screw this 'mirror' shit, you tell me, was Maharaji right or wrong?
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 23:32:53 (EDT)
From: brian one
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jehovah Jim
Message:
Dear JJ,

Can I call you that? Much as you'd like to get off this mirror bit, it just keeps coming up!

What an incredible similarity the exprems have to JW's.Why one even calls himself that!

Continually harking back to the past, pouring over what someone may or may not have said. Dissecting every statement but completely missing the forest for the trees.

Making completely incorrect interpretations and tenaciously hanging on to them in face of all evidence to the contrary.

So, while its probably as useless talking to you as it is to JW's, Here goes re your quotes.

Assuming they are totally accurate, of which fact we cannot be sure, and remembering that we are quoting a young teenage Indian boy whose mastery of English was not that good,I can still say:

Re.your quote 1. I have no idea what M. meant by this, but
I certainly would not think of nuclear war as an act of Gods anger. Humans make bombs, not god. A cherry bomb could be whatever. Maybe even a bomb of cherries. Could be environmental upheaval, El Nino, AIDS,you name it. Could be just about anything. And don't you think there's stuff happening? Don't you watch the news?

The next two quotes are more important;

M. talks about peace under the banner of the true name.

This has got nothing to do with changing the world on the outside. This is the error that many of JC's group made . They expected him to get rid of the Roman occupation etc.

I assure you JJ, that M.has kept that promise to whomever has
stuck with him, and now has established a very firm basis of people with a clear understanding of Knowledge and M's role in it
all around the world.
The groundwork has been done. The stage is now set .People are responding by the thousands. You haven't seen this. I have. Its great to be part of it. So can you . Wouldn' it be better to feel that all those years were not wasted. That youweren't ripped off?

Since when was 28 years a long time? Hell, my daughter's getting on towards that and her birth seems only yesterday. How long have humans been on this planet Jim?

What a pathetic complaint! I 'm starting to think you are even dummer than the JW's!

brian one
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 00:49:09 (EDT)
From: A juicy one
Email: None
To: brian one
Subject: Language barrier
Message:
'Assuming they are totally accurate, of which fact we cannot be sure, and remembering that we are quoting a young teenage Indian boy whose mastery of English was not that good,I can still say...'

Forgive me, brian one, but what a blatant rationalization that is. Just when I think I have heard everything... The statements Jim quotes were made. I have read them. Some of them were published in a book promoting M when he first came to the west. Anyway, even if he couldn't speak very good english at the time, he has had ample opportunity to make any explanations for or clarifications to past statements. VP
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 13:56:03 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: brian one
Subject: Jehovah Jim
Message:
First Brian, you are completely inaccurate in lumping ex-premies together as all thinking the same. That just isn't correct. There are a wide variety of reasons and throught processes that are involved among the large number of people who have rejected Maharaji. In my experience, their major reasons for rejecting him are NOT based on 'dissecting [his] statements.' It's more because they found that following M did NOT work for them, did not provide happiness or fulfillment and they found they lives were much happier and much improved after they left. That certainly is true of me and the other ex-premies I know.

The fact that Maharaji has been something less than consistent over the years is more like icing on the cake than the significant factor in my leaving him. But I have to admit that I got involved with Maharaji partly because I was attracted to his claims to be bringing peace to the world, end war and conflict, and create a millennium of peace. He stopped even claiming that afew years later (apparently because reality ensued and it became obvious to all but the most programmed that these things were NOT happening and unlikely to happen anytime soon) and from what I gether doesn't even mention that anymore.

Also, before I received knowlege, I was told that it would be fulfilling and that I could just try it and if I liked it great, but that was up to me. It was only in my knowledge session that I was told I had to agree to dedicate my life to Maharaji before I could even get knowledge, and it was some years later before Maharaji said that devotion and surrender to HIM was the purpose of my life, not the realization of knowledge, peace on earth, or anything related. Now I understand he doesn't say that anymore either, although it appears to be implied.

And noting that Maharaji used to be the Lord of the Universe, the Satguru, the Superior Power in Person, 'all powerful,' and 'all knowing,' but isn't anymore, is hardly the result of 'dissecting.' Those little changes are obvious to anyone with a brain, except maybe for premies, which draws into question who is actually 'dumber' (you might check your spelling on that word, too).
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 15:15:45 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The importance of the quotes
Message:
Even I don't say I left because of Maharaji's inconsistent and ultimately senseless and empty proclamations. I left because I started to think for myself. Just that alone and being a premie are entirely incompatible.

No, the quotes are just a way to prove the point, that's all. Personally, I don't need quotes to discredit Maharaji. I just have to look at him and his followers (including me until I left). Maharaji promised God realization and never delivered. That's the bottom line.

But arguing about the 'inner landscape' (which may well be more like the 'imaginary landscape' as coined by Terrance Mckenna) is so problematic. I know taht no single premie I ever met came even close to Maharaji's promised land. But, sad to say, premies are liars in that they'll say whatever they need to to protect their guru. Hence, they'll inflate their experiences unconscionably. They already do. I just don't want to play that game.

The quotes, in my opinion, do it all. They show that, far from having 'God consciousness', Maharaji was a deluded little meglomaniac. The greatest proof of their effectiveness is that it's his own words, I believe, more than anything else, that has forced him to hide in the fake-gold bunker of Maharaji's world. It's only his own words that stop him from talking to the press, trying to shape his public image this way or that. Pulbic Image? You've got to be crazy. Maharaji is a fugitive from the public eye and why? The quotes.

I'd imagine you'd say Bubblegum Ji (that IS kind of cute) may hve the same problem. Anyone who goes to see him when he descends on the pockets of the the English Indian community, may want to ask him about his telling the interviewer in the 'Lord of the Universe' documentary about the aliens that had landed in Columbia, who had started to attend satsang there and were 'really blown out.' (Really, you guys should see this video!) It's in that interview that BBJ explains that the comet Kohoutek, then supposedly threatening Earth, stood for 'Knock Out HOUston TE[KS}as'. That's also when he mentioned that the astrodome had a section reserved for intergalactic visitors.

BBJ also said:

Have we accepted that Christ is come in the flesh? If we have, then we are of God, and if not then we ourselves are antichrist.

and:

But what happens to a man who doubts? Nobody can even imagine.

But he didn't say:

A devotee of Satguru, of God, when he liquidates himself, or dissolves himself, or effaces himself on the Lotus Feet of the Lord, he makes the Lord agreeable in all respects.

That was mum.
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 21:18:24 (EDT)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The importance of the quotes
Message:
Jim

The gross generalizations that you make about premies are quite amazing. Is that really ME you are talking about?

Listen Jim, I'm not lying when I say that Maharaji did and does deliver to me the realization he promised. I'm not lying because I sincerely believe this to be true. And it really doesn't matter to me if you believe me or not, so I really don't think I'm defending him. So, I don't think I fit your mould of a typical lying apologist premie.

Now you can counter by calling me misguided, stupid, out of touch, whatever... fine. To counter that I could say that I do uphold a fairly responsible job, one that requires a fair level of intelligence, common sense, and leadership, and I think I do it well, so I don't think I qualify for those labels. You could try to say that we're all brain-washed. Well, if that's the only explanation that you can come up with for why we follow M, fine. But really Jim, in the process of doing so you're writing off a lot of good people that you KNOW are wo
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 22:19:43 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: You're partially right, Jack
Message:
Why, oh Lord, can't one post a question mark in the subject line? Oh Maharaji, I'm not telling you how to run your marvellous creation. I'm only asking. Huh?

Jack, you said this:


The gross generalizations that you make about premies are quite amazing. Is that really ME you are talking about?


Let's talk about generalizations a bit. Yes, I admit, I tend to think premies share more than a few things in common. I mean, considering that they've bound themselves to a guru who once elicited their promise to surrender their lives and 'allow Maharaji to take over' that's not really surprising, is it? I don't remember individuality being encouraged during my days in the cult. Anything but, really. Hence the 'premiespeak'. (Tell me, Jack, when was the last time you talked about 'this experience within inside'? Hey, it's a good thing Maharaji learnt SOME English, isn't it? At least you're not feigning stilted English as a Second Language).

During the eight years I spent in the cult, Maharaji accepted our personalities only as different voices to sing his glory. Even then, better not get carried away. Remember how he used to dis musicians who appeared to be getting into the music 'a little TOO much' when they sang his praises? A touch of personality is unavoidable but that's all.

Let's say you move to a new ashram back in the seventies. The community coordinator picks you up at the airport around 5:00. 'Jai Sat Chit Anand!'



'Jai Sat Chit Anand! You must be Jack, eh?'


'That's right, brother. Welcome to Calgary. How was your flight?'



'Excellent. You know, I ended up sitting next to this really beautiful brother who runs a bookstore here. He'd been to India years ago. He was telling me about all the temples and how impressed he was with the level of devotion he saw some of the Indians have for their gods. Nothing like the religion he'd grown up with.

When I told him about Maharaji, about the fact that there's a real master alive today opening people's hearts, you could tell he was really listening. In a way, it was just so humbling to see Maharaji working on his heart. Sometimes, I just forget how lucky I am, you know?'


'Yes,I know. That seems to be the story of my life. Luckily, Maharaji's always there to pick us up.'


'Yeah, I told him about public programs on Thursday, Friday and Sundays and I gave him the address of the center here. That is when you guys have public programs, isn't it?'


'Oh yeah, same as in Toronto. That's great. Here, let's go get your bags. Are you hungry? Gurucharanand's in town and he's invited all the girls over form the girls' ashram so we're having a big dinner with some ashram satsang before we head over to the centre tonight.'


'Far out!'


'Yeah, Gurucharanand's been a real inspiration this past week. It's really so much grace for Maharaji to send him here for so long. I guess I could say he sent him for me, I really needed it.'


'Well, we all really need that love.'


'Yeah, I know. Here, here's the car.'


'Hey, isn't this the car that Mark drove out from Toronto in? Of course, I recognize it.'


[They get in, shut their eyes simultaneously, as if some secret assailant had leaked in chloryphorm a la Get Smart. Suddenly, their eyes still closed, the 'new guy' starts slowly winding up..]


'Bhole Shri Satgurudev Maharaj ki Jai'


[They start driving. The new guy's all eyes at the setting sun on yet another cosmoploitan nest of Maharaji's lost little bundles of love.]


'You know, I'm really glad that Maharaji's giving me this chance to serve him here.'


'Yes, I know.'


'You know, for me, it's not just being in a new town or being transferred. It's just that I feel that Maharaji's personally picked me up. It's like he's said, 'New guy, I'm going to really show you my love now.' And I can feel him working on me like never before, you know?'


'Yeah, right.'


'I was reading the new Elan vital on the plane and there's this one really far out part of the sastang Maharaji gave recently in England. He says, he's talking about service and... well, I've got it right here. Here it is. He says, 'It's an experience. It's not going 'bang, bang, bang' on something. But it's going bang, bang, bang' on something and experiencing something from it. And that's not your thumb getting hurt. But it's something so deep within inside. It's something so beautiful within inside. That's what service is.'

And that's how I feel, you know? I don't want to just go 'bang, bang, bang' anymore. I really want to give myself, you know?'


'Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Hey, here we are! Here, let me take that.'

[They go into the ashram where people are just sitting down to eat. New guy recognizes a few faces but as everyone's beginning to meditate he says nothing. Instead, he walks past the table and goes into the living room and prostrates for a few minutes in front of the altar. Then he comes back and sits at the table. People are starting to open their eyes just as he's closing his. A few moments later, he opens them and bravely issues a loud 'Bhole Shri'. The other ashramies realize they've got themselves a live one. Between the new guy's fervour and the constant reminder that Mahatma Ji's just around the corner in his room, everyone feels that something really special's going on. There IS a lot of grace flowing. Should be a good night anyway.]

Now tell me, Jack, where the individuality came out or was supported in our premie life? Of course it wasn't. I could write a play about a day in the life of a premie and, in a way, it'd be like a A Day in the Life of Ivan What's His Name by Alexander Solzhinetsin (phonetic only). We were all interchangeable in word, deed and, yes thought. That's how he wanted us, that's what 'surrender' supported and that's about that.

Listen Jim, I'm not lying when I say that Maharaji did and does deliver to me the realization he promised. I'm not lying because I sincerely believe this to be true. And it really doesn't matter to me if you believe me or not, so I really don't think I'm defending him. So, I don't think I fit your mould of a typical lying apologist premie.

Now you can counter by calling me misguided, stupid, out of touch, whatever... fine. To counter that I could say that I do uphold a fairly responsible job, one that requires a fair level of intelligence, common sense, and leadership, and I think I do it well, so I don't think I qualify for those labels. You could try to say that we're all brain-washed. Well, if that's the only explanation that you can come up with for why we follow M, fine. But really Jim, in the process of doing so you're writing off a lot of good people that you KNOW are wo


Jack, I'm the first one to acknowledge that a lot of good people I know are 'wo' as you put it (??). But, really, is being 'wo' enough in this day and age, when everyone's walking around with bullet guns?

No, serioulsy, how can I honestly say all premies are 'lying' by over-inflating their experience? I can't. That's a ridiculous exaggeration on my part. As you yourself so aptly put it, it ignores the possibility that, rather than lying, they're 'misguided, stupid,out of touch or brainwashed.' Sorry, Jack, I was wrong.

Now, on the other hand, when premies who've been around since the seventies say that Maharaji never claimed to be divine -- and even in the face of the quotes we present -- then they're liars. Is that better?
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 22:35:47 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Holy shit, I meant 'sisters'!!
Message:
Please revise your copies of the post above. There's no way in the world my 'Jack' would have said 'Gurucharanand's in town and he's invited all the girls over form the girls' ashram'

Rather, it would have been 'sisters' all the way.

And we accuse PREMIES of revisionism!

Sorry again,
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 17:53:42 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: brian one
Subject: Mock stupidity
Message:
Cult membership has a price. It's not all souvenirs, trinkets and holy water.

Bruce's post (apparently under the pseudonym 'brian') is pretty funny. Mirabai, Vacol, anyo other premies out there who want to see what cult rationalization looks like on someone else, take note:

Dear JJ,
Can I call you that? Much as you'd like to get off this mirror bit, it just keeps coming up!


This is cult-member attempt to be witty. Now, come on, I ask you? Is this funny, funny in the least? I sense desparation and a certain forced mockery. Bruce is claiming I refuse to look at myself or, perhaps more accurately, I am the victim of the biggest 'I know you are, but what am I?' ruse of self-decpetion ever perpetrated by someone upon themself.

I WOULD comment on that but, alas, I'm afraid to. Guss you're right, Bruce. Let's move on, shall we?

What an incredible similarity the exprems have to JW's.Why one even calls himself that!

More good premie humour. Enough said.

Continually harking back to the past, pouring over what someone may or may not have said. Dissecting every statement but completely missing the forest for the trees.

Does Bruce actually KNOW any JWs? I hate to pull rank here but a friend of mine, another lawyer here in Victoria, used to be one and has written two excellent critiques of the whole cult. One of them, 'The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses' is incredible. Far from looking at the past, the JWs are notorious for revising their offical church history AND for ex-communicating church members who call them on it. Thus they avoid the debalce of not one but two missed doomsdays. Or is it three? No, Bruce is just being foolish.

Making completely incorrect interpretations and tenaciously hanging on to them in face of all evidence to the contrary.

Strong claim, Bruce. Maybe Brian will be nice enough to let you post here again just so you can back this up. Maybe he'll do that if you promise to post under your own name and no one else's.

So, while its probably as useless talking to you as it is to JW's, Here goes re your quotes.

Assuming they are totally accurate, of which fact we cannot be sure, and remembering that we are quoting a young teenage Indian boy whose mastery of English was not that good,I can still say:

Re.your quote 1. I have no idea what M. meant by this, but
I certainly would not think of nuclear war as an act of Gods anger. Humans make bombs, not god. A cherry bomb could be whatever. Maybe even a bomb of cherries. Could be environmental upheaval, El Nino, AIDS,you name it. Could be just about anything. And don't you think there's stuff happening? Don't you watch the news?


First, accuracy: they're quotes I've transcribed from offical DLM magazines and, of course, the book, 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?'. You want to quibble Bruce, help yourself. It just makes you look extremely desperate.

This 'young teenage boy', you idiot, was claiming to be God in human form! Again, this closely approaches the joke of the guy who killed his parents throwing himself at the mercy of the court on account of his recently becoming an orphan. (By the way, we saw the video, 'Man bites Dog' last night. Has anyone seen it? It's so hilarious, like a French, gangster Spinal Tap.)

Then, when you actually start discussing what Maharaji said, you really fall apart, Bruce. Your prattling is almost like Mili at his worst. Hey, it's a toss up. I wonder if you have the courage to let your daughter read your dialogues here? She would be absolutely ashamed, I'm sure.

Go ahead, I dare you. Show her the quote of Maharaji's and then show her what you had to say about it. Then let her post HER thoughts. I'm sure it'd be along the lines of 'I don't know, my dad's a great guy and everything, but you can't really talk to him about his guru. We think it's kind of stupid, but we love dad, so, well, I don't really wnat to talk about it.' No, Bruce, that's not a direct quote. Not yet, anyway.

The next two quotes are more important;

M. talks about peace under the banner of the true name.

This has got nothing to do with changing the world on the outside. This is the error that many of JC's group made . They expected him to get rid of the Roman occupation etc.


Well, Bruce, if you ever go to graduate school in the states, you're going to have to take the GMAT. I think there's a reading comprehension section. You better practise, bud. Maharaji couldn't have made himself clearer. Again, you're just being a little bit of a dummy here, aren't you? Never mind. Just get your daughter to read your comment on this quote too. Ha ha.

I assure you JJ, that M.has kept that promise to whomever has
stuck with him, and now has established a very firm basis of people with a clear understanding of Knowledge and M's role in it
all around the world.
The groundwork has been done. The stage is now set .People are responding by the thousands. You haven't seen this. I have. Its great to be part of it. So can you . Wouldn' it be better to feel that all those years were not wasted. That youweren't ripped off?


Same comment. Get the daughter out here is all I can say. This guy's an idiot, can't read, or refuses to acknowledge the fair meaning of words. Mirabai? Vacol? You've read those quotes. Do YOU agree with Bruce? Careful now..

Since when was 28 years a long time? Hell, my daughter's getting on towards that and her birth seems only yesterday. How long have humans been on this planet Jim?

Bruce, you have to choose -- either you're saying that M DID claim to bring peace to the world 'soon' and hasn't done it yet OR try to argue that he already has or, perhaps never promised to. Which one is it? You've argued both here. Both are stupid, but it's up to you. Which clownface do you wnt to wear today?

What a pathetic complaint! I 'm starting to think you are even dummer than the JW's!

brian one


Bruce, you are really a bit more like Mili than any other goof that's posted here in the name of Maharaji. Brian, are you sure about his identity?
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 23:57:20 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Bruce
Subject: Time to take a break, Bruce
Message:
You've been around here long enough to know about walking on someone else's name. It's a big alphabet. Use your time off to read a book.

When I get the editing functions finished so that posts can again be deleted, I'll unblock your IP.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 21:18:22 (EDT)
From: Vacol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Time to tie things together
Message:
J, Some thoughts . I really believe that our differances go far deeper than a dispute about M.
It seems to me , after carefully reading your last post, that you are a type of athiestic, materialistic evolutionist.
I , on the other hand am a spiritual evolutionist.
These 'lables' are just pointers.
It seems therefore that we speak a different language......in other tongues. Perhaps our D.N.A.'s are dancing to different drum-beats.
Another thought.....if M did encourage premies to come out into the open and speak their minds.....oh, my god......how can I say this? ...Peoples minds are so crazy.....just scan around the countless chatrooms and check out the contents.......and premies may just be slowly learning that there is something more sacred and less crazy than mind that has lost its way.......and possibly....just possibly....M may be trying to hold premies minds from expressing too much until they are more at-one with the inner self.....at which time, mind may be a very profound tool.
Jim.....sometimes I want to call you Guru Jimji.....can we agree to disagree? and still not lose ourselves in a type of self-righteous superiority.
Honestly....I honour the right for you to think and feel other than I .....Do you grant me the same honour?
By the way I enjoyed Anons last response to you.
Regards Vacol.
PS: I almost forgot to ask .....as with Ramtha , why would it be so difficult for a class-action to be brought against M ?
Perhaps someone could respond to that.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 21:32:10 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: Sorry, no
Message:
First Vacol,

M usually doesn't like premies who talk about class action suits against him. You might have noticed how little the people he surrounds himself with get into the topic.

You said and asked:

I honour the right for you to think and feel other than I .....Do you grant me the same honour?

Sorry, V, there's no way I can answer this to your satisfcation. Yes, I honour your 'right' to think and feel however. If you ask me if I can 'respect' your thoughts or feelings, I'd say it depends. Are they respectable?

Well, that just begs the question. Okay, let's put it this way, if you thought 2 plus 2 equalled 5, no I wouldn't respect that. If you thought Maharaji has never changed his message over all the years, no I'd wouldn't respect tht either. On the other hand, if you said you thought Dijon was as good as regular mustard, it'd be hard but, yes, I'd respect that.

Did I answer your question?
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 22:01:51 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: Vacol, I can't believe you
Message:
V,

I re-read your post about how we speak different tongues and wanted to comment further. First, what in the world is a 'spiritual evolutionist'?

Second, there are lots of god-fearing ex's here. If you think you can't talk clearly with me, try them. But, you know, we both speak English. People have been able to discuss varying -- strongly varying -- viewpoints ever since language came to be. If you're honest, that shouldn't be a problem. Red-herring, maybe but problem, no.

Third, V, this:

if M did encourage premies to come out into the open and speak their minds.....oh, my god......how can I say this? ...Peoples minds are so crazy.....just scan around the countless chatrooms and check out the contents.......and premies may just be slowly learning that there is something more sacred and less crazy than mind that has lost its way.......and possibly....just possibly....M may be trying to hold premies minds from expressing too much until they are more at-one with the inner self.....at which time, mind may be a very profound tool.

is disgusting! Are you willing to sacrifice all of humanity just to save face for your fraudulent guru? And they wonder where fanaticsim comes from.

DISGUSTING!!!!!
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 21:07:31 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: My Testimony..12
Message:
Hi Vacol, I dont understand why You, Bruce, and participant
all want a class action suit agaist prem rawat.
Why would bruce, who says he is from australia, know wether
prem rawat is vulnerable to a class action suit or not?
American laws are complex. Why does he know prem rawat
is safe from that type of suit? And the same goes for
participant. And even you. Why do you want us distracted on
a wild goose chase and how come you already know he cant
be successfully sued that way?
What if you are wrong and he gets creamed by a successful
public suit. Wont you feel wierd having suggested it?

You guys are not telling all about your identities.
Thanks for the directions, but we are proceeding on our
own guidance system. Jim long ago checked out the
class action suit options. If you read his posts carefully you
would have seen his answer.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 07:28:52 (EDT)
From: brian
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Brian has risen
Message:
Well then!

Told you I'd be back,didn't I?

Sorry to be so persistent, but I really only get this oppurtunity once a year.
Thanks to those who participated in the quiz (.Brian,Jim,Scott.)

Jim, no points for you, as you avoided the questions,as seems usual, yet you always seem to be slandering premies about doing just that. (1)

So, the answers to Easter Quiz.

Question 1 Why didn't Brian answer the charges?
Answer
Brian had been charged with claiming to be King. People in power (1) thought he was into power too and had plotted to trap him. Apart from saying my kingdom is not of this world, he remained silent. (so the story goes)

Why not? He knew that saying anything else
would be useless, so why waste his breath.?

It's a bit like teaching a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Question 2 Who betrayed Brian?
Answer Easy. One his closest followers. This guy was the treasurer of Brian's cult, and was a very sincere and caring guy. He was pretty socially aware, and was getting rather confronted by Brian's behaviour, such as allowing Mary to wash his feet with expensive oil. That could have fed a lot of poor people, he thought. So, he figured that he would rid the place of this crook and he'd give the money he'd make from putting him in to some socially just cause.

When he realized his rather silly error, he felt rather bad and did himself in, and the money never got to help anybody anyway.
(so the story goes) Brian however, survived a rather nasty Friday, and went on to live in Rome, where he gave people K. and wrote the gospel according to John.(so the rumour goes)

Question 3. With what is the road to Hell paved?
Answer Good intentions. Illustrated well by the above.
Actually, Brian the Webmaster got this one, but lost his points for calling Bruce a babbler. Shame , 'cause he's going to need all the points he can get from now on.

Note(1): Whenever people like Brian appear, they act as mirrors
People into money see Brian as into money, people not really into
the truth see Brian as a lawyer sorry lier, people who see god in themselves see god in Brian. You can almost tell where someone is at by listening to what they say about Brian. Its uncanny.

I know this for sure because I have all the above qualities and have at times thought I saw them in Brian.

A further question for you Jim since you feel that I should
NEVER criticize EX's! Wasn't it you who set up this web site with the express purpose of criticizing M. and everyone still associated with him? Note (1) again!
Oh yes, and I do know why M. said one thing and then seemed not to say it., which appears to be the question which bothers you and your friends so much.
Do you really want to know, and if you did ,would you remove your website if the answer satisfied you?
Or would you keep the website and find another question for M. to answer?
Try asking nicely. Look back at question 1 for a clue.

brian
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 09:57:00 (EDT)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: All hail Brian
Message:
Are you defending or attacking GMJ?
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 16:46:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Petrou
Subject: Hey, what's going on here
Message:
I just now realized that you, brian, are not Brian, our beloved webmaster. You purposely trying to trick people? That may be very spiritual but it's still not nice. Anywa, Brian has a good sense of humour and you, dear friend, seem to have missed my joke.

Okay, so you're saying, I take it, that M said all these things and now denies it to save his life? Is that it?

How ludicrous! Moreover, how would that affect whether he was right or wrong when he said he had 'absolutely no doubt' that his doomsday vision (with him saving the world, natch) would come true?

To answer your questions, yes, I would like to know why M said one thing and later denied it? The website's not mine to cancel but, assuming I had the power to cancel it, would I do so if I knew why M was inconsistent? Beats me. I guess it depends on the answer, doesn't it?

So, I'll ingore the fact taht you accuse me of usually avoiding things (now YOU'RE being funny, right?) and that you can't spell 'liar', or thart your post is extremely difficult to understand (why even Petrou, here, Student of religion as he is, can't tell where you're coming from. Mind you, that just shows Petrou's inability to perceive real spirituality when it's glowing on his monitor), .... I'll ignore all that and await your answer:

why DOES M 'say one thing and then appear not to say it'?
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Date: Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 07:03:35 (EDT)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, what's going on here
Message:
In a court of law which represents a kind of pinnacle of the art of argument second hand accounts and quotes don't mean a thing.
The only thing I have seen that GMJ apologised for were claims made when he was only a child that he regreted.Do these really count in your scenario??How would you like it to have something you said as an 11 year old brought up 30 years later?Again.you would be laughed out of court.
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Date: Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 10:37:16 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Petrou
Subject: Petrou -
Message:
How dumb, P, to say tht quotes and 'second hand accounts' don't mean a thing in a court of law. You REALLY don't know what the hell you're talking about. Like, you're a complete dummy. That you can't see that there's something a little unique about M's pronouncements at 11.... amazing. Mind you, I guess you could focus on his saying, at age 33, that he was 'Hari, God in human form' might warrant a littel thought, huh?

Ah, the field of comparative religion must be a rigorous climb these days.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 16:35:47 (EDT)
From: brian
Email: None
To: petrou
Subject: Brian has risen
Message:
Dear Petrou,

Is this a serious question? Or do you mean that by defending him in this way I might be inadvertently attacking him?
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:57:51 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: brian
Subject: Brian has risen
Message:
There's too many Brians here. It's getting confusing. Has the webmaster cloned himself? I am the real Brian. Always look on the bright side of life.
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Date: Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 07:06:24 (EDT)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: Brian has risen
Message:
It sounded very uncommitted here and there.Who's Judas,Bob Mischler??
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:13:43 (EDT)
From: John K.
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: for brian p.
Message:
Dear brian the p:

I have found that I don't do very well communicating with premies on this site. I say one thing and it seems to be misunderstood in ways I never would dream of, so...I am proceeding cautiously.

If you could please tell me what it is you are saying with these questions about the life of jesus/brian/guru?

I mean it sounds like you're comparing M to Jesus.

Or...you could just imagine I'm an ex premie who has been out of touch for years (which is true) and you are telling me why you still follow M.

If you could be as straightforward as possible I would appreciate it.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:19:09 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: whomever
Subject: You answered question #1 wrong
Message:
Actually what bothers some of us is not so much 'his saying one
thing and then seemingly not saying it'.

It has more to do with your comment about 'those that see god
in themselves and god in prem rawat.'
People don't 'see' god in themselves and just look at
yurim wiess of charanand. If you have heard them speak in the
last few years, you will know that they are NOT in some
advanced state of being. They both are strictly bound in
the constraints of devotee status. They only look to prem rawat
for thier moments of bliss and those are during the events
when the illusion and the theatre are in full swing.
When they are with prem rawat, THEY have to come up with
the feeling of infatuation or hero worship.
prem rawat pretends to be god incarnate and the most important
person alive and they get into backing up that fantasy.

THEY are truly not 'advanced' spiritually in ANY way and
if you will talk with them for a while you will see that.

There IS no seeing your own divinity.
It is the master, the master, the master. period.

If you want to answer a question, answer me how you figure
god incarnate would treat his own mom like prem rawat did.

Banish her from his life for 18 years till she died.
This is not the action of some 'advanced' spiritual person.
Well?

Your answer to question number one is flat out wrong.
You don't know brian/jesus/yeshua.
Or what he was saying.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:23:20 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Bill, you're onto something
Message:
Bill, note I didn't say 'on', I said 'onto'.

I agree. There's something incredibily rich about the family split, in terms of what it shows. But what does it show?

Bill, you've been fairly close to M at certain times, right? I get that impression anyway. Somebody said something, or maybe it's just the fact that I can't understand you at times (just kidding!).

Anyway, what can YOU tell us about M and Momma M?
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 21:18:51 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bill, you're onto something
Message:
I'll try to find something for you from the archives.
I fits with the new bbj news.

And I'll think about your question and post a response.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:33:01 (EDT)
From: John K.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Family = bad
Message:
Actually Bill, Mr. Rawat behaved the way he told us to behave. Parents are not important when it comes to M. I know some years in the ashram we were encouraged to have meetings on x-mas day to keep us from going home.
Again, if the experience of Knowledge is that fragile that it can't handle a little bit of old time family love, affection, and turmoil then who needs it?
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 23:16:46 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: John K.
Subject: Family = bad
Message:
John K.,
IMHO it isn't the experience of K that was as fragile as it was the cult programming and the dishonesty of the whole mentality that was so fragile. And I'm nt sure that was so fragile for each person after listening to everyone here. But M wasn't talking any chances! Your family might be able to talk some sense into you for goodness sakes. VP
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 21:33:30 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: John K.
Subject: ultimate ruler= bad
Message:
Yeah your right.
It serves him right that he denied his own family since
he made so many people lose thiers.

John Miller was trapped being rawats personal slave in the
70's and HIS father died and he couldn't even go to the funeral.
rawat caome up with a convenient lie and told him that
parents of premies are saved.
When miller was going to be an instructor rawat said 'if he
surrenders this time I will give him liberation'.
Of course miller is in miami not liberated.
rawat told him to jump out the malibu upper window and
john did it. He was lucky he didnt get seriously damaged.
Of course thatmust have been the grace right?

After miller was steve braburn and then braburn was going
to be replaced by this guy. rawat BLASTED him with one of
his tantrums and the guy ran away. rawat sent marilyn to
go and talk to him and tell him the REASONS why rawat
blasts us-the ones bruce will tell us by private e-mail
I suppose-but this guy would never return.
So Patrick got the job of intense suffering and STILL is
trapped in it. Total slavery to a _______________
you choose the adjetive.
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 22:04:16 (EDT)
From: John K.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: ultimate ruler= bad
Message:
Funny you should mention J. Miller. After Rawat relieved him of his personal valet duties, he came through our city and stayed in our ashram for a few weeks. He was not a happy camper. I think he attributed his general malaise and sadness to being separated from the feet of his master, but I saw it as something else. I realized with him and also with other people who were around M a lot that they seemed to be carrying something very serious around with them. They were not carefree, happy, and blissful.

Maybe that was my imagination? But that's how I remember the encounters I had with the people who had been around M.

Yeah, I heard also that story of M saying parents of premies are saved. And can you imagine not letting him go home to his father's funeral? What a sicko.

Are you still in touch with Miller?
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 01:13:03 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John K.
Subject: ultimate ruler= bad
Message:
I remember hearing when Danny Blood left the residence one day when he just couldn't take it anymore. The personal valet position was a real hot seat too. I remember when Danny said Maharaji made him put on a suit used for dog training, and M fired a gun at him. Very sick. It's also like the time M made Bihari Singh (whom he also abused) get in a tub of water on the roof of the Kansas City ashram in the middle of the winter and then laughed. We all thought it was lila, but I think it was just sadism.

But then there were a bunch of servants around to wait on Maharaji hand and foot. And there was always a reservoir of premies who would have given anything to get the chance.

I remember Miller as well after he got canned. It was like there was a whole part of him missing. I got the feeling he had been used up and discarded. I think he had had a nervous breakdown. Maharaji yelled at him a lot, abused him a lot. Other times he would be very nice to him. The problem was, Miller, nor anyone else in that position couldn't stand up for themselves, tell that megalomaniac guru to 'shut the fuck up' or say something like 'how dare you talk to me like that, you fat little jerk.' No, that probabaly would not have been considered kosher in the perfect master kingdom. And that is the concrete example of the inherent problem in the master-devotee relationship. It is inherently abusive. The Guru Papers explains it pretty well.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 00:20:03 (EDT)
From: The real gumby
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: counterfeit revival
Message:
They are fakes, frauds. I'm the only real real gumby...

gumby1

gumby2

gumby3

Jim, how much do you charge?
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 16:09:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: The real gumby
Subject: counterfeit revival
Message:
Usually under a thousand bucks (U.S.) and you get a 100 % cotton t-shirt (personally designed by a creative artist) and a year's subscription to this very web site. Normally, I can get you in and out in about half a day.
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Date: Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 21:30:06 (EDT)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: relaxation therapy
Message:
I agree that alot can be conveyed with the different words that we all feel comfortable with using. Relaxation therapy or divine within can sound superficial depending on our own personal relationship with these words. I am all for not trying to hype anything up. Who I am? That is one simple way that I could express what I feel regarding this issue. who I am in a simple way is what I like to go into. We do tend to jump on each others words and sum each other up according to these words.

David,I jumped in and referred to your experience as narrow which was a bit too quick. None of us like the feeling of being summed up,especially when we are on the wrong track. I likewise did not enjoy you summing my words up as just quoting from M. I sometimes use words of some of the people that I respect...not because I am parroting them,but because I can personally relate to particular words in my own way.

Mirabai
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 09:06:01 (EDT)
From: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mirabai
Subject: relaxation therapy
Message:
We all jump in here, it seems. Point taken. Have a happy Easter.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 19:49:06 (EDT)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: David
Subject: We are all human
Message:
Happy easter to you too David. This is a forum where people are actually expressing what is important in their lives. It's more than just an ex-premie place where people and their perspectives are sharply defined. We are not dealing with the religion of the 'premies' and the 'non-premies'. We are all human beings coming from all sorts of backgrounds and perspectives.

Mirabai
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 16:58:53 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mirabai
Subject: by the way
Message:
Mirabai,

What questions of yours have I avoided?

Also, why do you pussyfoot so gingerly around M's own words? Look, the guy said he had 'absolutely no doubt' that doomsday was rapidly approaching in 1971. Can't you read? The world would finally know his greatness -- he'd save it of course -- and we'd all live happily ever after.

Now, if I was trying to defend Maharaji I guess I'd have to do what you're doing to -- AVOID THE OBVIOUS.

But I'm not, so I get to POINT OUT the obvious?

Isn't my job SO much easier? I could do this drunk, stoned or in extreme sleep deprivation. I could be drooling on my keyboard, half dead to the world, it's so easy. Really, premies should hire themselves out to shy people support groups so that their members can learn just how easy -- and fun -- it can be to argue.

'Okay, John, it's your turn to argue with the premie now. Come on up, don't be shy. Look, you saw how well Charlene did. That wasn't hard was it, Charlene?'

'No, actually, I kind of liked it. And I didn't feel nervous at all. Mind you, I got to watch everyone else in the class argue with the premie first. What about arguing with real people? I still think I'm going to get nervous.'

'Well, it's one step at a time, Charlene. The fact is you did great. Now, you don't want to argue with me about that do you?'

[silence]

'Okay, John, it's your turn. Go ahead, ask him something.'

'Alright...... Premie, has your guru ever publically blamed or crticized himself for anything?'

[The group all smiles. This is fun. Premies are great. Hopefully, they'll bring in another one next week!]
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 18:04:20 (EDT)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Complex.yes...Jim & everyone
Message:
Jim,

I get the impression from you that because you have some quotes from M and together with your interpretations that this constitutes facts. This to me does not constitute fact....It seems obvious that there are things to critizice and I am more that willing to do this....BUT..For 13 years I have seemingly experienced a simplicity and an authenticity from M...atleast,that's how it's been for me...I am taking a brand new look at M at this time because this forum is challenging me to do so...In many ways I suppose I'm pretty casual and lay back about the whole issue and that's partly why it's a bit complex.My experience has been so incredibly different from yours and I've not been addicted to M in the way a lot of other people are. I'm interested to look at the whole situation... I am open to the possibility that M said some things that really helped

to misguide people and that he encouraged people to worship him and to look to him for all their answers. Also I am willing to be very critical of the way he seems to have shown no remorse or compassion to people like yourself by not expressing anything to you...I am looking at the possibility that he might well still be encouraging people to be devoted to him in a way that is destructive.....BUT...I get the feeling here that the only way that you will feel that I'm being reaonable is if I agree with everything you say,Jim. The influence that M has had on me over all is to inspire me to go within and I will be very careful before I make a sweeping statement and assume authority to judge M or anyone else for that matter and call them a charlaton. Besides I have so much experience that tells me otherwise....The only thing I am sure about in this world is that I exist and anything else outside of that I'm cautious about assuming I know all the facts. It's more important to know what I know and be uncertain about those things I don't. People are doing that all around the world..One group insists that their ideas are right and the other group does the same..Then they might fight over it..To know something is a powerful thing to state...To know the absolute truth of something. Do I know myself so deeply and profoundly that I can take it upon myself to KNOW where another human being is coming from. My source really is very deep as it is with everyone else. These are not just words for me,I go deeper into myself as the years go by and the more I do this,the less I am so sure to judge others from a fragmented point of view.The truth is the truth and I don't want to colour it with my little ideas or anyone elses...

Mirabai
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 18:54:23 (EDT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Mirabai
Subject: Complex.yes...Jim & everyone
Message:
I know that on this website people post much reasoned argument (a lot of which probably fails to make the intended impression) almost as if that they were on a mission to convert the other-side as it were.

At the end of the day each individual has to reach their own conclusions, and no amount of persuasive argument will soley bring about that understanding. I believe that within all this debate one can find some 'truths' that resonate or clarify ones own feelings. That is helpful. It is even helpful sometimes to have ones cast-iron truths challenged, or to feel confused by what one reads.

Personally I have come to my current understanding through my own experiences of practising Knowledge and following M (sorry can't think of a better word than 'following')

I hope that people who come to this site can see that not every one wants to argue so concisely about M, in the way that Jim obviously enjoys. I am not primarily concerned with challenging or changing what other people believe, but I do value sharing my feelings with others on this very touchy and emotive subject. I am not ashamed to confess that I carry some resentment from my past experiences. That's just the way it is, and that also motivates me to 'whine' about some things I have encountered along the way. (much to the horror of some)

Although everyone has their particular history of involvement with Maharaji, which obviously varies enormously from person to person, it has been good to contact a few others who have had the exact same unexpressed misgivings as myself.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:31:27 (EDT)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Complex.yes...Jim & everyone
Message:
I can begin to understand that this site must be of enormous value to the people here who have misgivings regarding M. As I can see that even for myself I have enjoyed the first opportunity to express myself about anything to do with M. I've had little outlet of expressing anything on this subject. So it must be especially powerful for people who feel aggrieved in a very big way. I imagine that many here gave themselves very sincerely to M many years ago and it's so difficult for me to step inside these shoes and really empathise. But I really do accept th possibility that people have good and valid reasons to feel angry with M. Open Communication is my main motivation for being in this forum. Coming out of oneself and expressing ones feelings etc is very important and can be a real healing for each of us...obviously in vastly different ways.

back in 1984,when I first started hearing satsang,although I don't think they called it that then....my experiences were very shortlived as I went to live in an isolated area where I had nothing to do with the premie world at that stage...There was no more sharing after that....One thing I'll say for those days is that at least people were coming out of themselves. It's nice to share our experiences on a deeper level with others and I have missed this. I've had some outlets for expressing deeper things,but certainly not with any premies....Coming out has been a no no. Although questioning things and being critical was never anything that people felt okey to do,so I've never been comfortable in the premie world,it's always felt suppressed .

Mirabai
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:51:04 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mirabai
Subject: My apology to Mirabai
Message:
Mirabai,

I jsut posted my last little goading post at you before I saw this one. Look, you're obviously trying to come to terms with things. I was impatient with you and I apologize. I would appreciate it though, if you'd specifically deal with those quotes.

You know, I thought spiritual folk CLUNG to the words of their master. And maybe you've never heard it, but there was a big premie hit song years ago all about that. 'At the Feet of the Master' which Maharaji had played all the time, was about how important it was to listen for his every word, his every whisper.

So I don't think it's that out of line to ask premies to speak to this doomsday satsang. Do you?

Thanks. Let's keep trying,

Jim
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:45:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: You can't change the facts
Message:
Anon,

I heartily agree that we all have different temperments and that I'm unlikely to pull someone out of the cult by mere reason. That's why I'm offering a little more. From this point on, I'm offering a beautiful 100 % brushed Egyptian cotton T shirt with a lovely picture of Maharaji under which we'll customize the clever little slogan 'I surrendered my life to this man for [number of years] and all I got was this shirt.' Plus, a gorgeous thick-walled, coffee mug, fired in authentic Oregon red clay. The mug is emblazoned with a picture of a devotee kissing Maharaji's feet one one side over the caption 'Surrender is just another way of never having to say you're sorry'. The other side bears the quote:

Now the time has come. God is going to show His anger over the universe, just like a cherry bomb explodes

So, Anon, something for everyone, don't you think?

*****
Now, Mirabai, while I aprreciate your ability to go on and on talking I also detect your use of words as a curtain to block your vision. Please, let's get real. Did you read those quotes? Yes or no?

Was Maharaji not absolutely RIDICULOUS and FEAR-MONGERING to say what he did? Do you actually think he knew the slightest bit of what he spoke then? Don't forget, while he spoke he was probably, at that time, joined on stage by his 'Holy Family', all but one of whom split a few years later and said 'hey, he's no guru!' Then, BBJ starts up his own litle dealership.

Get real, Mirabai.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:51:33 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: You broke your HTML!!
Message:
Webmaster (the real one) will get you for that, Jim... Don't forget to close it!
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:55:36 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: My sincere apology to Katie
Message:
I feel so ashamed. Again, this is my lowest moment, my weakest hour. Sorry again.

Hey, Katie, why don't you invent something so we don't have to 'close our html'. It's not very sleek and cyberspacey is it?
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 21:05:33 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: My sincere apology to Katie
Message:
Hi Jim,
I don't want to be too hard on you in your darkest hour, but be aware that Brian has to fix all the broken HTML when he archives. I would love to invent something to prevent everyone from doing that, but I'm not as smart as Brian (the real Brian, that is!).

Take care (and don't break your HTML no more!),
Katie
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 21:35:55 (EDT)
From: Vacol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You can't change the facts
Message:
Jim, after reading your posts to Mirabai, I like to add something that Mirabai would probably agree with too.
I happen to strongy dislike....or stronger feelings than that.......Maharaji's bullshit too....all that over the top sat sang that you like so much to quote. Personally my response to your question 'what do you think about these quotes from your master?' is ....they can be thrown in the rubbish bin as far as I am concerned....or ..yukky poo poo....but in 16 years of listening to M these types of messianic ,inflated outbursts are not the norm.....and even when M gets a little carried away, My feeling is that it has powerfully modified since those days of your involvement. Should we pass a verdict on M for his past sins? Jim, I say yes ....but who has not sinned?
I use the word 'sin' in a neutral, non religious sense.....perhaps 'erred' would be a better term.
Vacol.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:10:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: Almost interesting now
Message:
V,

'Yukky poo poo' says it all. Yukky poo poo indeed!

Here's how I look at it. Let's say your uncle comes to town. You've known him for years, you like him -- when he's not drinking that is. This one time he comes, says some really bad shit about your father, they get into a bit of a scrap. Your uncle was an asshole and you're seething in anger.

Months pass. No, make that a few years. You're at yet another uncle's place and you see this guy. It's not like he ever apologized or anything but hey, he's much older now. He seems so mellow and, you learn, he stopped drinking about a month after that blowout with your old man.

How do you feel? Maybe like letting the past go, time to forgive and forget. I think I might. He 'erred' -- we all do -- let's be realistic.

Maharaji, on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish. He got us to surrender our lives to him, largely on account of this crazy, irresponsible Doomsday bullshit. If he'd retired soon after or something. Maybe stayed in school and became a dentist and, years later, you bump into him in downtown Hardwar, you might feel like forgiving him. I mean, obviously, the kid was stuck in some sort of strange guru role and, well he's obviously left it all behind. Live and let live? Yeah, I guess, although, personally, I think I might like to at least talk to him a bit.

'Excuse me, sir, is your name Rawat?'

'Yes, yes it is. Why? Do I know you?'

'Well, weren't you a guru once?'

'Hmm, yes I'm afraid that's true, a long time ago though. Why? Were you aware of my organization?'

'Aware of it? I was one of your few western devotees! Don't you remember me? My name's Mili. Mili from Zagreb.'

'Mili! Why of course I do! How are you? You look great. God, I remember, you were kind of the crazy one, weren't you? I remember you now. Mili, holy cow!'

'Well...Maha-....Mr..... Rawat, I wonder, do you ever... No, never mind. Forget it.'

'Forget what?'

'Hey, it's okay. I mean that was all a long time ago. No need to dig up all that stuff. Sure crazy, eh?'

'You now, my friend. Sorry, wht did you say your name was again?'

'Mili!'

.'Mili! Sorry. I'm just so ...well, anyway, what I want to say is that WAS a long time ago. What can I tell you? My parents wanted the best for us kids and, well you know my father believed very much in what he was doing. To tell you the truth, I'm a little embarrased. It WAS a long time ago but I know I said some pretty bizarre things.'

'Hey man, don't worry about it. You know, like we all make mistakes in life. Luckily you didn't take it too far or anything. How's your family, anyway?'

'Thanks for that. No, I really feel like I hurt some people, got them all worked up over... not much I'm afraid. But you're right, it didn't last long. I gave up the guru thing when I was 15, you know. My mother was pretty angry at first but, well she's quite proud of me now, I can say. First medical professional in the family!'

'Good for you. Well, look, I've got to go now. It's been great talking with you. God, who'd ahve thought? Take care, eh?'

'Yeah, see you later. Hey! Blessings to all the premies!'

'Ha, ha, ha. That's pretty funny!'

Yeah, it is, isn't it? I guess I'm the only dentist in northern India who used to be a guru! Take care.'

'Yeah, you too.'

*****

But, V, it isn't like that. He wrapped us around his pudgy little finger and has never once even acknowledged that it was all a joke. I say that shows he is completely UNREALIZED and IMMORAL. Not too easy to look the other way. Know what I mean?

Hey, if I or any of my friends, ever claimwe're God in Human Form, here to save the world by showing people how to liquidate their personalities on my holy lotus feet, you have my permission to call me on it, then or whenever.
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 09:34:41 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: You can't change the facts
Message:
Vacol:

Re: ....but in 16 years of listening to M these types of messianic ,inflated outbursts are not the norm.....and even when M gets a little carried away, My feeling is that it has powerfully modified since those days of your involvement. Should we pass a verdict on M for his past sins? Jim, I say yes ....but who has not sinned? I use the word 'sin' in a neutral, non religious sense.....perhaps 'erred' would be a better term. Vacol.

I think you are putting the right weight on the 'ME inflation' thing, but not drawing the right conclusion. To me it's not so much that he sinned, or erred greatly, but that he's so damn mediocre.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 09:54:19 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: He could have become 'decent'
Message:
Vacol:

Let me clarify what I mean by mediocrity. To me, many would find the sort of life Maharaji has lived very seductive, but there are quite a few who would eventually feel some guilt. At least some of these would be motivated to walk away. This would not take an extraordinary degree of integrity, just a certain 'decency.' Others would be tempted to expand upon the power in order to indulge really perverse interests. I guess what I'm saying is that just because Maharaji never became totally perverse doesn't mean he ever achieved decency. Why the hell would you want to follow such a one?

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 14:43:13 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: You can't change the facts
Message:
Vacol, let's get real.

Even if his 'inflated outbursts' are not the norm, but are, as you describe them, 'bullshit,' and even if he does it less than he used to, don't you think he has at least some minimal obligation to acknowledge that, apologize for that, or at least warn people who might not have the highly-developed 'bullshit detector' that you believe you have? Don't you think he as at least some minimal obligation to take some shred of public responsibility for his inflated 'bullshit' statements [and actions] of the past? [Aside from the acknolwedgement that people actually got hurt as a result]. Wouldn't you expect that of any other, reputable, human being, especially someone who is asking you to trust him? And how can you have such a double standard? Why do you have a different standard of judgment and expectations for Maharaji than you would have for any other person, especially someone like a priest of a politician whom you might be expected to trust or rely on?

Again, is it because being around him and what he does appears to make you feel good? Even assuming that your 'feeling good' comes from HIM, which I don't believe, it's a pretty quesionable set of ethical and critical guidelines. Does 'feeling good' absolve him of his ethical and moral responsbilities?

And shouldn't Maharaji be held to a much HIGHER standard in this regard, because of the propensity of some people at least, to want so badly to believe that what he says is true and the effects it could have on those followers' lives who believe his 'bullshit' and aren't able to discount it and overlook it like you do, especially because he also repeats over and over how one has to TRUST Maharaji implicitly? And given his history of saying 'inflated bullshit,' shouldn't that also rightly place him under some extra scrutiny, and given that he is old enough to know that what he said in the past was 'inflated bullshit,' doesn't that mean if he continues to do so that he thinks he can get away with it and is playing the 'guru-con-game' at least to some degree?

Unless, of course, you think Maharaji is so deluded that he BELIEVES his own 'inflated bullshit.' Now, if you believe that, why on EARTH would you be following someone so deluded.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:48:13 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: To Jim-Tshirt offer
Message:
Can my shirt say:

'Some friends of mine gave their life to this man, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt!'

Maybe my mug could have a picture of a person looking at goomraji's feet with this 'get real' expression on his face--you know, one eyebrow raised in a questioning expression. Goomraji in the full krishna outfit.

Thanks for your consideration, VP
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Date: Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 21:12:20 (EDT)
From: Vacol
Email: None
To: Jim and everyone
Subject: Objective Facts.
Message:
Jim, J.w.....and all ......Let me approach from a new angle.
I want to get away from my subjective realm for a while and ask a few questions.
Jim, as a lawyer....you may be in a position to respond.
How is it that with so many ex-premies claiming so many very serious accusations against Maharaji, that a law suit has not been taken out .....in all these years.?
Now there is talk about that .....but why has it taken this long to consider that option.?
Also I am sorry that I haven't replied to all that M-sat-sang stuff....but Jim there is so much going on I have to be selective.
JiM.....I shall follow up a lot of this as times goes on.
This entire debate has really got me thinking!
Regards Vacol
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Date: Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 21:22:10 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: Soak time.
Message:
Vacol:

Go take a sauna.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 00:30:03 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: Objective Facts.
Message:
How many Vacols are there? I'm getting confused! Surely the same person who wrote this didn't write the Testimony...11 below. VP
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 16:24:13 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: Objective Facts.
Message:
V,

Who's going to put the bell on the cat? I tihnk one reasno no one's sued M (tthat we know of, anyway) is that it's so distasteful and possibly intimidating confornting one's former lord and amster.

Besides, there's so little prospect of winning one of these things in the states where the constitutional freedom of religion has traditionally protected religious leaders.

Then there's the question of statutes of limitations. I, for one, think I left the cult far too long ago to have a cause of action.

Having said, that, I hasten to add, that I'm no expert in this area and that if the U.S. courts aren't so sympathetic there might be some somewhere -- where M has assets of course -- which might be.

Anyone else know anything about this? In particular, does anyone know of any former attempts to pin the tail on the donkey?

(My giurlfriend, who sitting here -- for the last time, I assure you -- just said it sounds like I, being a lawyer, should do the research and find out for myself exactly what recourse there is.

Well, Laurie, I already told you, I'm pretty sure there isn't any so get off my case will ya? This is MY cult, not yours! Bug off. Go get me something to drink, for God's sake!)

Sorry, where where we? Oh yes, 'The Role of Wmaon in Modern Society'. Personally, I think.... HELP! DON'T, ARGH! KATIE, CALL THE POL...
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:41:32 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Lord and Hamster
Message:
Jim:

Re: it's so distasteful and possibly intimidating confornting one's former lord and amster.

I'm not at all intimidated about comforting my lord and hamster. I just want to know how you knew I had a hamster?

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 00:46:54 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry, my mistake.
Message:
Jim:

Sorry I made fun of your typo. I just got tickled by the concept of Maharaji as a cuddly rodentlike creature spending his life racing around the globe for the amusement of the crowds. As for the US being sympathetic to a class action against MJ, don't count on it. People get riled about deviant religions, but this is a sectarian country. Cults are part of the tradition, although only a few ever make it to the status of religions. It's a sort of religious market, and if MJ can compete successfully few will yell foul, unless he gets caught up in the tax laws. They are very serious about the separation of Church and State, and taking advantage of the tax laws is akin to 'establishment of religion.' If Maharaji gets caught on that stuff they'll do a Jim Baker on him. In my opinion anyway.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 13:16:31 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: Objective Facts.
Message:
As I pointed out to Mr Participant, I am not a lawyer, but I have worked in the U.S. legal system for the past 15 years, and I've done a lot of trial work in the last 10 years.

First, I have heard that M has been sued and has also settled claims before a lawsuit was actually filed. I believe it is in his interest not to let disputes go to court for obvious publicity reasons. Mr. Ex has reported the M has paid some settlements to people, but I don't know the details.

Second, lawsuits, at least in the U.S. are VERY expensive. Most of us who left the cult were virtually destitute. We didn't have to nickels to rub together. Us ashramers had turned over all our money for the previous 8 or 10 years and were lucky to be able to pay rent, let alone hire lawyers. Plus, as you know, Maharaji has tons of money and could hire armies of lawyers. Guess who could outlast whom in a situation like that?

Third, I agree with Jim that lawsuits against religious leaders, unless you have some direct claim for financial impropriety, sexual abuse, or something like, are pretty difficult to maintain. Since Maharaji had virtually no direct contact with his devotees, he can hide behind others for the abuses that took place. Also, I don't think it's against the law to be a religious fraud, unfortunately. In the U.S. the principle of religious freedom is so broad that a multitude of abuses can occur, but the alternative, letting the government get involved in religion, is probably worse.

Fourth, I don't think litigation is attractive to most people to bring charges that are so personal. I think you can gather that most ex-premies who criticize Maharaji feel very personally violated by what he's done. It isn't some sort of arms-length business transaction that is the subject of the grievance, which is really what the civil court system is designed to address. Also, if other ex-premies are like me, it was years after I left before I really even wanted to talk about the whole cult experience. I was more interested in patching my life back together and trying to forget the whole thing for some time. By the time I was ready to really discuss it, the statute of limitations had likely run. Plus, I never thought a lawsuit was an effective way to address the issue in anyway.

Hope this answers your question.
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 16:59:59 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Well said, JW
Message:
In fact, I think I'm going to develop a macro so all I have to do is hit one key and out pops, 'well said, JW'.

But, you know, I'd like very much to find out more about any lawsuits launched and settled. Mr. Ex, if you've got a line on any former plaintiffs, I'd be all interested.

Hey, I owe you an email, don't I?

Ooops..

Jim
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 17:12:10 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well said, JW
Message:
Well Jim, you can bet your bottom dollar that included in those settlements is a little thing called a Confidentiality Agreement. And I would assume that no settlement was made unless confidentiality was agreed to and also that only those who had the closest contact (and therefore the most dirt) would have gotten asettlement in the first place.

Any possibility that something like that accounts for the silence of people like Donner, Patterson and others who were so close to His Perfectness?
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 18:16:25 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Well said, JW
Message:
Holy shit, I never thought of that. I mean, is that what happened? Those top guys essentially blackmailed Maharaji for OUR money? Hey that's a great speculative harm that I'm warming up to. But how to know?
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Date: Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 19:41:47 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Hmm.. It worked
Message:
Well, the archiver works. The inactive messages are now cleared.
I've been working on the compiler all day, and if that works okay too I'll get the archive online this evening (EDT).
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Date: Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 19:45:47 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Brian
Subject: Hmm.. It worked
Message:
Brian, we stand in awe of your skills in writing programs. Just letting you know...
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Date: Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 21:54:30 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Archive is Online
Message:
Forum III's first archive is online now. I'll make the last one available for reading online, and the previous ones will be ZIP files.

Forum II archives are now entirely ZIP files.

I still have to get Forum I archives online for Robyn, who's working on a new forum digest. Our Founder has agreed to host them in his webspace since he's already got the originals there and the cleaned-up versions will take much less disk space. I might be able to get to them this weekend, but by next weekend for sure.

I really want to get back to being a part-time Forum-Master and a full-time Webmaster. The site has been neglected for the last 2 months while I battled with the trauma-of-the-minute that Paradise was so good at delivering. There's some great page material in those latter Forum II archives that I'm itching to get online, including the Little Video Library List that Participant contributed. Should be an eye-opener for aspirants, don't ya think? I only wish I could afford to be a premie again...

I am also involved with some ex's in a new project to expand the site. It'll be a nice little surprise.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 17:17:32 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Archive is Online
Message:
Thanks again for all the effort, Brian.
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Date: Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 19:03:59 (EDT)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ahhh shucks, I feel hurt!
Message:
I recently posted a small message:

'Premies, Are you Selfish?'

and no one posted a response except for NV. (NV, Thanks for your
honest response that you ARE addicted to little m. This is the
first step to recovery. In general I don't *do* things to make
myself *feel* good, certainly I do enjoy many activities in life.
Many of which I do feel good doing, but they are not the ends
in and of themselves.)

Just in case some people may have missed my earlier post, I
am reposting: (Am I going postal?)


Hi Premie Friends,
I have been recently reading some of the posts by premie
brethren, about how selfless m is. With his busy schedule, flying
millions of kilometers, slavishly giving of himself. Aren't any of
you premies a bit ashamed of yourselves? Here is this poor little
man who is working like a dog so that you can get your 'fix'. So
you can 'shoot' up another video. Mainline another event. Don't
you feel like a junkie? Look at yourself in the mirror. You are
not a teenager anymore, wake up, wake up! It is still not too
late. I have read alot about premies who insist that their
experience and trip is one of self determination, one of free
will. You are deceiving yourselves. To prove it. Try the
following: DO NOT go to a video, for 2-3 weeks. DO NOT listen to a
cassette for 2-3 weeks. DO NOT come to this site for 2-3 weeks. DO
NOT go to an event for 2-3 months. Come back, and with an honest,
open heart, and open mind tell the world you are *not* addicted.

Little m will really appreciate your abstinence, it will give him
a small chance to relax and do a little fishing. It will also do
some good for you. What say? Give it a try?

May Grace and God be multiplied in you.

-gumby

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Date: Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 19:07:18 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Ahhh shucks, I feel hurt!
Message:
Gumby,
I read the original message and thought it was really funny (hope it was intended to be so!). Since I'm no longer a premie, I didn't want to comment, though!

Katie
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Date: Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 19:09:07 (EDT)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Ahhh shucks, I feel hurt!
Message:
Fair enough... (Thanks for your post this round.:))
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 15:30:24 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: gumby
Subject: Ahhh shucks, I feel hurt!
Message:
Dear Gumby,
Dito for me. I also read the original and didn't respond because I was not a premie.
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 21:39:21 (EDT)
From: Pat Strong
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Ahhh shucks, I feel hurt!
Message:
There is no question that I am addicted to Knowledge and Maharaji who showed it to me. And further, I'm not even ashamed of it. Compared to many people, places, and things I've been addicted to Maharaji and Knowledge are heaven sent. As I posted a few months ago ( for which I was blasted by Jim), I believe that people's needs are individual and perhaps your needs have evolved or backslid ( who really cares which?) away from mine. This whole negative cult idea is very strange and I plainly do not get it. I've been reading for a while trying to understand. I think it's hopeless.
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Date: Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 23:37:57 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Pat Strong
Subject: Loverly addiction
Message:
Pat:

This whole negative cult idea

I don't get it. Negative cult, or negative idea? Or that the idea of a 'cult' is negative. What doesn't make sense? That anyone would dare disagree with Satguru? That anyone would dare denigrate him? Why wouldn't addiction be 'negative?' Would it be negative to say so, or not?

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 09:32:27 (EDT)
From: Pat Strong
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Loverly addiction
Message:
I screwed up my last reply, so if this comes twice, sorry.
Re: Cult - What I don't understand is if there's a general negativity to all cults ( defined by Webster as a religious system) or just M.
Re: disagreeing with M - No, this does not bother me. I don't always agree with M.
Re: denigration of M - No, I understand denigration of others to be an emotional ( perhaps spiritual ) sickness.
Re: addiction - being an addictive personality is not all negative. However, the best I can do with the cards I've been dealt is be ' addicted' to positive things and work on more balance in my life. I find that practicing Knowledge helps me gain more balance. This phenomena has been noted by my non- premie friends and relatives as well.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 10:33:15 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Pat Strong
Subject: Loverly addiction
Message:
Pat:

So, being critical of someone that exploits others financially and spiritually is a denigration, and therefore an 'emotional or spiritual sickness,' but addiction 'is not all negative.' Have I got that right? Apart from this rather questionable concept of being 'addicted' to positive things, I would suggest that addiction plays 'topsy turvy' with your priorities.

I have a 'habit' of exercise that I must work to maintain. It's not an 'addiction,' because all I'd have to do to rid myself of it is nothing. That part is pretty easy. The habit disappears quickly and effortlessly. I could become overly dependent on exercise to regulate my mood, which would be an imbalance. By and large I don't think that's either inevitable, or a good thing.

Not to lose sight of the question, however, it has to do with whether your need has fed Maharaji's addiction to an extent that is unhealthy for him. Have you ever thought about the possibly negative consequences of fulfilling your need, on Maharaji's ability to cultivate his own soul in the way that he must in order to have a worthwhile life? I think that's the gist of the question. It has to do with co-dependence.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 15:04:50 (EDT)
From: Pat Strong
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Loverly addiction
Message:
The distinction between habit and addicition is confusing to me . Webster defines habit as addiction. Think of the 'habit ' of cigarette smoking, absolutely THE MOST difficult addiction I've overcome.
No, I've not thought about the possible harm I've caused Maharaji. I have spent some time dealing with regrets of times when I did not practice and that I owed M something for breaking a promise I had made to him and myself.
This afternoon out in my garden on this beautiful spring day in the Michigan woods, I was thinking about why I'm reading this site and posting. It's an interest in understanding the thought process leading up to leaving the practice of Knowledge. This is something that concerns me from the standpoint that this happened to me for a few very rough years and I never want it to happen again. I value Knowledge and my relationship with M dearly.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:36:11 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Pat Strong
Subject: Loverly addiction
Message:
Pat:

Just be careful you don't understand too well..

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:31:19 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Pat Strong
Subject: Praying to Maharaji
Message:
Pat,

If you broke any promises to M, do you think he really knows about it? Are you sure of this? Does M know you personally? Does he call you and visit you? Is it a real relationship or devotion from only one side? Can you answer these questions with absolute certainty?

I used to pray to Maharaji. I know with absolute certainty that he never even heard me. I feel really foolish about doing that now, but at least I have learned something. This is a positive thing :) VP
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:46:37 (EDT)
From: Pat Strong
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Praying to Maharaji
Message:
I'm certain that I said I pray to a God of my understanding. No, after much anguish and a lot of listening I took M's advice and let it sink in that I only hurt myself and those around me. I have prayed to M and still do on occasion........why did this make you feel foolish?
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:50:57 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Pat Strong
Subject: Praying to Maharaji
Message:
'why did this make you feel foolish?' Because I don't believe that Maharaji is divine. He is only a man, in my opinion. I think praying to God is fine. VP
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Date: Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 23:43:06 (EDT)
From: gumby
Email: megumby@hotmail.com
To: Pat Strong
Subject: Ahhh shucks, I feel hurt!
Message:
Hi Pat,

Thanks for your response.

I don't think there is any issue about being ashamed. I do,
however, believe that it is healthy to look at ones own
behaviors, beliefs, values.

If you had a drinking problem, and I knew it, and I didn't
confront you (in a loving way), what kind of a friend would
I be? What expression of love would I be giving to you? Now,
I'm not necessarily saying that following m is like being an
alcoholic. I don't know. But, I do believe that addictions can
be harmful, and therefore without loss of generality I believe
it is good to discuss it.

Pat you wrote: This whole negative cult idea is very strange and I plainly do not get it.

The issue here is that harm has come to some of the individuals
posting here. Either directly or indirectly. In fact, great
harm has come to some people that followed m. ie suicides, etc.
Henceforth the negativity that you find here. Negativity
isnt always a bad thing.

Clearly, if one doesn't perceive any problem, than it is
difficult to convince one that there is any problem. But that
in and of itself doesn't necessarily exclude the reality that
a problem may indeed exist.

I am grateful that you are reading and trying to understand.
What main things are you struggling with, besides the negativity
that you mentioned?

GAGBWY

-gumby
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 01:10:10 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Pat Strong
Subject: To Pat Strong
Message:
Pat, would you read the imperfect post in the 'gramd Opening'
thread that is from me to Mili and respond to the basic
idea?
I hope it is not partially offensive.
I think it is an interesting subject for me right now and
I would appreciate your thoughts.
Thanks, bill.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 08:27:10 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Clarification
Message:
Bill:

I hope it is not partially offensive.

Does this mean you hope it is completely offensive?

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 09:49:04 (EDT)
From: Pat Strong
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: To Pat Strong
Message:
Well, first, I'm definitely not as smart as Mili. Practicing Knowledge or listening to M does not bring me closer to feeling/ thinking that I am God. It does show me a peace and contentment within me. I also do pray to my understanding of God many times everyday. Understanding and gaining humility and acceptance is very important to enriching my experience and my abillity to interact with others in a positive way. M provides great guidance for me in this area along with being the one who gave me the opportunity receive Knowledge and the inspiration to keep practicing. Sometimes ( maybe all the time for me), the greatest gifts take a long time to open.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 17:12:47 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat Strong
Subject: To Pat Strong
Message:
On this holiest Sunday in the entire month of April, my prayers are with you, Pat. I hope that you, like my premie brethren, will be AT LEAST as smart as Mili.

Hang in there,

Jim

P.S. (Hint: if you're interested in what might have gotten you out of the cult the first time 'round, read the 1971 Christmas satsang of M's which I've recently posted. The one where he told the world that he had 'absolutely no doubt' that the bombs would start dropping and he, Lord and Saviour, would then do mop up. Very soon, he promised, the world would realize who he was. You, sir, are following a genuine cult leader from the real-live early 70s! It's like Boogie Nights wihtout the sex.

Anyway, that quote and others I could send you if you wish, might help you sort through the thought process, as it were).
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:55:18 (EDT)
From: Pat Strong
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: To Pat Strong
Message:
Thanks Jim for your prayers. I can always use any help I can get.
I am well aware of what circumstances led me to stop practicing between 1991-95 and they have nothing to do with your presumptuous remarks.
In the 70's I liked those kind of talks by M as I thought Nixon was going to blow the world up.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 20:58:29 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat Strong
Subject: To Pat Strong
Message:
You 'liked' hearing Maharaji talk about the end of the world? Hey, Pat, so did I.

The question, though, is what possible insight could he have had that allowed him to say that he had 'absolutely no doubt' all this would happen when, as you and I both know, it didn't?

Huh?
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 22:49:22 (EDT)
From: Pat Strong
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: To Pat Strong
Message:
Not yet anyway, Jim. One thing's certain the world will end for me.
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Date: Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 23:17:57 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat Strong
Subject: Tell me, Pat
Message:
What greater lie could Maharaji have told? Really, what could top the imminent end of life as we know it, God's 'cherry bomb' exploding, then peace under Maharaji all over the world?

But I guess you're just one of these guys who think Maharaji's one person who is unaccountable for anything.
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 08:36:54 (EDT)
From: Pat Strong
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Tell me, Pat
Message:
Maharaji is accountable for what he says and does. Why do you always put words and ideas onto other people.........this is a disturbing habit.
I hold M accountable for his end of our relationship.
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 14:30:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat Strong
Subject: Tell me, Pat
Message:
Pat,

You accuse me of putting 'words and ideas onto other people'. I'm sorry, I don't understand. Could you please explain -- and by the way, could you please explain yourself as clearly as possible? Thanks.

Also, you say Maharaji IS accountable for what he says and does and that you yourself hold him so. How is he accountable, generally speaking, and how is he accountable to you personally?

Really, I think you're being cult-level ridiculous, if you know what I mean. There's a certain depth of denial that only a truly captured mind could express. In this case, Pat, I think you're right down there.

But, let's look at me, for a moment. I followed Maharaji pretty intensively for a full eight years, most of which time was spent in the ashram. Does that count as a relationship? Of course it does. I was one of the flock however much you might like to deny or minimize that fact.

Okay, so how has Maharaji been accountable to me? I've tried to communicate with him -- registered mail, the internet (open requests, a posted copy of the letter I sent him). I've spoken several times to Linda Gross, the president of Elan Vital, asking her to try to find me a way to talk with him (she ultimately said things just didn't work that way and that maybe I should try to write him a letter! This, of course, after she knew I'd done exactly that to no avail.)

| finally tracked down David Smith last year. You know, Maharaji's chief zombie. After David sputtered and stalled for twenty minutes, unable to even speak clearly let alone reason with any intelligence (it sounded like he hadn't actually discussed anything in decades) I asked him how I might communicate with my former guru. He suggested a letter. I told him that I'd tried that unsuccessfully and asked him what I should try next. Swear to god his answer was, 'well maybe you should try writing him again'. I asked him to intervene, he saw Maharaji often enough. However, like Linda Gross, he could only say 'it didn't work that way'.

I got the number of a fellow whose name I forget right now. (I'm at my girlfriend's and don't have it with me). He was one of the instructors and premies who'd 'been asked' to contact all the people who'd ever once posted on the now-defunct premie page to tell them that Maharaji didn't want to be mentioned publicly on the internet. He and I had several discussions (all at my expense). Nice guy, lives in Malibu with his girlfriend, complimented me on my apparent 'sincerity' (that's a real big word for you guys, isn't it?) and, on his own initiative decided he'd try to get me an audience with Maharaji. This time, I told him it was pretty well pointless. No, he wanted to try.

Guess what? Pointless. He talked to some PAM (People Avoiding life by being especially close to Maharaji) who, I take it, were even closer than him. He also talked with Linda Gross. After a few weeks he got back to me, 'sorry, Jim, it just doesn't work that way. Maybe you should try writing him again.'

Then, of course, there was the time I had a drink with Raja Ji, the one remaining member of the Holy Family. After hearing him meander around the issue of Maharaji's severely changed agenda which I was asking him about then in the mid/late 80s, I realized taht he, Raja Ji, knew dick. I told him that this conversation wasn't doing it and taht what I really needed was to talk to his brother. It was Maharaji himself I need to ask these questions of -- starting, of course, with who the hell he thought he was in the first place.

Raja Ji's face changed. Gone was a certain evasive smugness I'd been dealing with throughout. Instead, he looked at me, apparently quite sincerely, and said, 'you know, I've tried to ask him such questions myself and he won't even talk with me about these things'.

So, tell me, Pat, how is Maharaji accountable?
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 17:36:02 (EDT)
From: Pat Strong
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Tell me, Pat
Message:
Regarding ' putting words and ideas onto others as theirs': review your own post where you so arrogantly explain what I think and feel about accountablity. Your own words probably speak clearer to you than any others. M is accountable for giving me a tool to go within, which he did beyond my expectaions and as a bonus he has been a key inspiration to continue seeking growth in my life. Obviously what I was looking for and got was different than what you were looking for. I'm sorry you are so hurt and angry.........taking it out on me by calling me ridiculous and 'down there' ( what ever baaaaad meaning that might have in your vocabulary) is lousy..
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 18:08:04 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat Strong
Subject: You call that an answer
Message:
Pat,

Can't you do a little better than that?

You've completely avoided the meaning of 'accountable' as if you'd never heard the word before.

The only thing 'growing' in your life, Pat, is a big, black cloud of ignorance. Shame on you for pretending to not speak English.

Jim
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 21:05:39 (EDT)
From: Pat Strong
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You call that an answer
Message:
Jim, I've reread our posts, reviewed Webster's definition of accountable, thought again about what I hold M accountable for and his performance of this accountability ( namely, as stated before, showing me a tool to find peace within), and I just can't see how I've avoided this issue of accountability at all.
But again, you can't seem to stop yourself from taking personal slams at me (or perhaps you don't even try), so enough of this for me. I hope you become less angry and hurt as time heals your wounds.
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 22:09:43 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat Strong
Subject: Pat, me boy
Message:
Pat,

Oxford: accountable -- responsible; required to account for one's conduct.

What's Webster's say, anyway? 'Accountable -- able to make you feel an experience of love within inside'?
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 19:22:09 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Tell me, Pat
Message:
Jim,
Raja Ji REALLY said that to you? Is he the brother who just wants to hang around M? VP
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 19:24:54 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Tell me, Pat
Message:
Yep, cross my heart and swear to die if THIS statement is a lie. (Only this one, though).
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 21:47:23 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Dinnertime
Message:
Jim, participant offered to meet you for dinner.
rawat has said more than once that if someone has dinner with
him that he can have a interesting wide rangeing discussion
and he was quite proud of that.

That his ego drenched pride can successfully (in his view)
hold forth a dinner time talk with anyone.

CD doesnt think rawat has been here. So that is reason enough
to know he has.

I think you got a dinner invite from bbj's younger brother.
He MUST know you have been clamoring to meet him.
If he is to analize his opposition,(which he is),
the graph and percent info is just like him.
and student? Very much so.
Why do you think he wouldnt involve himself here?
His arrogant pride drives him to.
And this whole place IS about him.
He has been a computer freak since the beginning of computers.
He has MANY computers.
arby's? who is paying? he likes ice cream(or did).
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 22:31:58 (EDT)
From: John K.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: M is with us always
Message:
I don't think there is any question that M frequents this page. How can he stay away? This is the only place he can go to actually hear people talk about him openly.
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 23:26:56 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John K.
Subject: M is with us always
Message:
Look, you guys, I just don't know. But Arby's, Bill? That's VERY funny.
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 15:47:39 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Pat Strong
Subject: Tell me, Pat
Message:
Dear Pat,
You said you hold m responsible for what he says and does... and then some stuff about Jim....and then I hold M accountable for his end of our relationship.
How would you feel if you were hurt in your practice of K? If your money was given as you were 'told' to give it. How would you feel if your friend killed themself or had a nervous breakdown because they felt they couldn't practice K as they should. Things like this are all over this forum but are you saying as long as they don't touch you it is OK with you? That is a leap of acceptance that I just can not find any empathy for. What is it exactly that M does to keep up his end of the relationship?
Thanks for you thoughts,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 10:20:38 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Robyn
Subject: PAT
Message:
Pat,
I am not rude and haven't slammed you yet you have not responded to my post to you only to Jim's, odd don't you think?
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 18:20:10 (EDT)
From: Vacol
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My Testimony..11
Message:
During the 16 years I've practised K I've had many times of feeling very thankful to M. My life has been very growthful.
Meditation has become woven into my daily life.
M's words are so simple and inspiring.
He talks for my own deepest knowing.
His truths are so self-evident.
His language is universal.
But even so; he is human.
He has imperfections.
Yet with his imperfections ,he has dedicated his life to spreading K to all who can value it.
This is noble.
Ex-premies do not value what M is doing.....or even agree with my perspective.
So be it!
But for each disgruntled ex-premie there are probably countless people who are simply grateful to M .
M has evolved so much.
He is not static.
M is not perfect....rather he points towards the perfect.
M as a divine being is perfect....and reminds us that we have perfect divinity within us too.
It is who we really are.
It's too simple. One needs to let go......of who I think I am.
I am literally not who I think I am.
The real I is so mysterious....because it is so free of particular attributes.
Ego is my friend ....but not when it usurps the rulership of my totality.
Ego as psuedo-ruler is so self-deluded, no matter how it paints over a puny little prison-cell and creates a facade of a palace.
Maharaji has been one of my best friends .
Thankyou Maharaji!
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Date: Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 18:27:15 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: You're being silly, Kieth
Message:
Kieth,

You actually sound like you're sleepwalking here. I've got this t-shirt with a bunch of guys and girls in pony-tails, snadlas and tie-died shirts, arms outstretched and bug-eyed walking toward a house on a dark, windy night. Beneath it says:

Night of the the Living Deadheads

All you'd have to do, I think, is change their look a bit and, well you know what I'm thinking.

Smarten up!
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Date: Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 20:42:13 (EDT)
From: Lg
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: My Testimony..11
Message:
That's all he has to offer, and that's why I left 10 yrs. ago. I was tired of earing the same thing, and nothing new to learn.
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 17:35:34 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: My Testimony..11
Message:
Vacol, you should be put in a prison cell (whether the creation of your ego or not) or at least fined heavily for using the word 'growthful.'

And maybe you are not who you think you are, but given your various 'testimonies' and how they flip back and forth from open questioning of Maharaji to what appears to be unquestioning faith in him, I'm not sure you're even the same person from post to post.

And if Maharaji is your 'best friend,' tell me this: did you call him up today, go out for coffee with him, engage in a game of basketball with him? Does he know your name, or what you think about your life, or what you think of the price of eggs? That's what a 'best friend' is, Vacol. A 'best friend' tries his or her hardest to know you, to spend time with you, who cares about whether you're happy or sad and shares in your happiness and your sadness. I doubt Maharaji knows you are alive and has made zero attempt to rectify that. He doesn't want to be your friend. He doesn't even care if you continue to be his devotee. He couldn't care less. That isn't what a 'best friend' does, and if you let somebody get away with that and still consider that person a 'best friend,' I think you are deluded, into wishful thinking, or your standards are very low.
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 18:13:58 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: I Am Vacol's Best Friend
Message:
Vacol,

It's time you accepted the fact that I am your best friend. These other ex's here, guys like JW, they care, but not like me. I DO want to play basketball with you and ask you why you eat eggs (when Maharaji used to tell us they'd retard our spiritual growth). I'm here for you, Vacol.

If you want me to talk to Maharaji for you and try to sort things out, I will. Look, you'll never have to see the guy again. We've got a guy who'll go over, get your last belongings, (whatever can fit in one van-load). We'll set you up somehwere, help you find a job, hey, amybe even introduce you some people who'd love to hear your story. Let you be 'Kieth Simons' again, now how'd you like that?

Vacol, it's either that or a lifetime of sounding like Bruce.
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 18:51:01 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I Am Vacol's Best Friend
Message:
Jim, maybe that's the solution. Ex-premies could volunteer to be 'Maharaji Substitutes' for premies, to help them break the addiction. You know, kind of like a methodone program. We could stage programs, give darshan, make repetitive speeches about not much of anything and then disappear for months at a time, only sending out videos of more repetitive blathering. It just might work. We could even volunteer to take donations and hold fundraisers so the premies can once again experience service.

Hey, maybe we could use BBJ as the 'halfway house master.' A temporary fix for those who can't go cold turkey. At least he's got the Hindi accent and probably has that arrogant air of entitlement that Maharaji has. That might be hard for others to mimic, not having been raised as a god. He just might agree to it, now that he's lost his government job.
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 18:52:00 (EDT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bad Eggs
Message:
I DO want to play basketball with you and ask you why you eat eggs (when Maharaji used to tell us they'd retard our spiritual growth).

Oh dear. That has brought back a suppressed anxiety that I have been carrying for 24 years.
After the festival in Copenhagen in 1974, I returned to England by train. I returned to my chidhood county home. The green fields, innocent joys, the simple pleasures like cooking a cheese omelette on the Aga cooker for my friends. But wait..HORROR...THE PAIN OF SEPERATION FROM MAN AND EGG...Never..NEVER AGAIN..as long as I should live (which at 17 seemed like it might be for quite a while)..never again would I be able to savour the exquisite delight of my beloved Cheese Omelettes. Oh terrible sacrifice...hardest of tests to be given by Maharaji..

It was like losing a leg. You'd wake up in the night thinking it was still there... but it was lost and gone forever!

On that train journey home I sat, deliberately but depressed, opposite a premie who was most keen to give me satsang for the entire trip. As an aspirant I needed this. For every waking moment as an aspirant I needed to hear Satsang as I had not yet been shown how to still the mind and go to Maharaji inside. Otherwise I was just prey to my MIND and worse...to EGGS.

This dribbling, thin and ashen premie (I had the fortune to be listening to) had quite clearly grasped the reasons why eggs are BAD and most of his Satsang revolved around his considerable knowledge of the different effects of food on the human spirit. If his Macrobiotic diet had anything to do with the fact that he a distinct resemblance to a corpse, then it was a connection that escaped me. I remained (until quite recently)prone to becoming very mentally disturbed at the mere proximity of an egg of any shape or size.
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 19:58:32 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Bad Eggs
Message:
Anon,
Don't you just think that Maharaji was just pulling your 'eggs' Sorry, I couldn't resist. VP

Why do you think M made these kinds of paricular demands of devotees? Just to see what he could get people to do? Did any other ex-devotees here give up egs?
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 20:15:18 (EDT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Bad Eggs
Message:
I don't know what Maharaji himself had to say about eggs. Nowadays he would blame all those demands, that aspirants and premies had put upon them at that time, on the premies themselves spreading misunderstanding. I am sure he was behind it to some extent though.. He must have given some indication that he wanted premies to be vegetarian.

Generally you were expected to be a vegetarian. Some Instructors (then known as Mahatmas) would sometimes refuse to give Knowledge to people unless they said they had become vegetarian. One good friend of mine was told that if he wanted knowledge he had to first get his haircut! (I think that the instructors name in that case was Anne Johnson - she was unusual to say the least)

I was reprimanded by a premie for turning up to satsang at the 'Palace of Peace' in a leather jacket. The craziness at that time had no bounds I assure you. I found it all very confusing as a inexperienced teenager.
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Date: Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 20:30:50 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Bad Eggs
Message:
I read a Q and A where maharaji answered why premies shouldn't eat eggs; his reasoning was that premies shouldn't eat anything that had 'consciousness'. Asked then if 'seeds' of vegetables, and vegetables themselves, didn't have consciousness, maharaji answered that it wasn't the same thing.

The diet maharaji recommended wasn't unusual for an Eastern religion. He certainly didn't invent it. I remember initiators suggesting that eating meat, fish or eggs would make it harder to meditate.

I struggled intensely with this diet, scouring over food labels to make sure there were no eggs. At one point a premie told me that maharaji had said not to look for hidden eggs, and that the main point of knowledge wasn't to be obsessed about diet. I used that as a good excuse to start eating plenty of ice cream with 'hidden' eggs. I pretended I didn't know.

I don't know why I suffered so on this diet. I'm vegan now, for health reasons, but at the time, I could eat all the butter, and cheese I wanted. What more could anyone ask for? I sympathize with your compulsion for eggs, Anon. Personally, I once broke down for a burger, when I walked by a Sizzler in Waikiki.
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 00:24:54 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Food Tripping in the Cult
Message:
I was already a vegetarian before I received knowledge, having read 'Diet For A Small Planet' and desiring to be rebellious vis a vis my parents. One of the things I remember most about food when it came to premies was 'food tripping.' Some ashram housemother would decide we should all eat macrobiotic or 'raw foods' so that's what we would eat. I recall one housemother who got on a raw foods kick and I lost about 15 pounds and I wasn't very heavy to begin with. I had a job unloading produce at a produce market. When I went to see my parents they said I looked like I had been in a concentration camp.

Then, of course at other times, ashram premies, being denied sex, got into ice cream, sugar and chai tea (for the caffeine). A lot of us also got into fasting. I used to fast every Tuesday, because I thought it was a good discipline for controlling your desires and also because it made me feel light-headed, a feeling I was after and liked. I also did a whole bunch of 'cleansing fasts' including one in which you drank volcanic ash dissolved in water that ended up tasting like mud. That went on for a week and was intended to clean the sludge out of your intestines. You had to do an enema every night. .

I never had any problem with the vegetarian diet, especially after I went to IHQ and DECA. The food was great. One of the best dishes there was a breaded tofu dish served with tartar sauce. It was sort of like fish and chips.
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 13:39:21 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Food Tripping in the Cult
Message:
Dear JW,
I and my daughter who is still at home are also vegitarians. When I have company for dinner I will sometimes have meat and if I feel like it when Jade is not home for dinner as she will not, unless we go out for Chinese. Isn't that odd, you'd think that would be the best place to go out for a veggie dinner, KIDS! Anyway I wonder if you would know the particulars for the tofu and chips, as it sounds good for a change and easy to! I like to make tofu tacos, even my meat eating friends like that one!
Hope you had a nice easter,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 13:32:08 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: VP
Subject: Bad Eggs
Message:
Dear VP,
When I became a premie I moved into a premie house. They were the type of vegitarian that doesn't eat eggs. I'm sure someone else knows the correct name. We used egg replacer for baking. I gave up eggs until I became pregnant, at M's suggestion in Miami, remember? It wasn't hard for me to give them up but I just wanted the extra protien source.
Robyn
Hope you had a nice easter
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 00:33:27 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Bad Eggs
Message:
Anon, I know about the love affair you Brits have with eggs. I went to school in Exeter my junior year of college and I was amazed at the number of eggs the English ate every day. I grew up in the American Midwest, and we ate eggs maybe once a week, but the Brits made it the center of their diets, it seemed.

I was a vegetarian at the time, in the early 70s, and if I hadn't found East Indian restaurants I think I would have starved to death. Fresh salads were unheard of and even pasta was considered some kind of delicacy. I craved oranges and was told they were out of season most of the time. And the vegetables -- overcooked potatoes and fried tomato slices was about all ther was. I ended up eating lots of bread, cheese, tea, milk and candy.
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 03:10:56 (EDT)
From: Vacol
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Bad Eggs
Message:
You ex's really know how to make an omelette out of a poor deluded premie, don't you?
But what amuses me even more than your collective wits(?)
is the way you all ramble on about nothing ...because you are mostly so unable to raise the level of your thoughts.
Nevertheless I do get the odd chuckle out of your highnesses.
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 05:46:21 (EDT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: I can think high thoughts too!
Message:
you all ramble on about nothing ...because you are mostly so unable to raise the level of your thoughts

Its called having a light chat ..what's your problem with that? I suppose you wander around spouting pearls of wisdom at every turn.

And how do you know that I can't raise the level of my thoughts a bit if I want? I happen to have very elevated thoughts from time to time if you must know...not, of course, that I could possibly ever raise the level of my thinking to the dizzy and rarefied heights that you obviously cruise.
Laugh at us lowly creatures if you must...
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 12:26:23 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: Bad Eggs
Message:
It may be a surprise to you, but most of us have lives and interests besides your little 'master.' Please excuse us if we at times discuss things as lowly as food. By the way, Vacol, humorlessness is not a sign of spirituality.
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 05:24:35 (EDT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Bad Eggs
Message:
Things have changed for the better in England now JW. My hometown has an abundance of excellent Italian, Mexican, Tapas (spanish), Japanase, Thai restaurants. Supermarkets stock organic vegetables and everything else exotic that you could possibly crave. How times have changed since the '70's! When I returned to England in 1975 after living in LA for a year, I desperately missed the Mexican food and variety that I had got used to in the USA. That has now all changed.

Like yourself, in the Ashram people subscribed to many food trips (there wasn't much else to get into). Fasting was one, another was Macrobiotics and Veganism as you mentioned. Although I never really got into all that, I still don't generally eat meat. I seem to have lost the taste for it from my years as a veggie.
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 12:45:20 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Bad Eggs
Message:
Right, Anon. In my trips to the UK in the past 10 years, I've been amazed at how much more fresh food is available than when I went to school there, but I was also distressed to see how American fast food outlets seem to be popping up everywhere. That hasn't happened to Ireland yet, but give it time.

I've remained a vegetarian as well. I just didn't see the point in eating meat, because it really doesn't look appetizing to me. But lately I've been doing some body-building and I find I have to add more protein to my low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet. So, I've gotten into egg-white omlettes. [Using only 'free-range,' organic eggs, of course :)]

I never questioned the vegetarianism that Maharaji espoused, because it already fit into my views when I got involved. However, I never really understood what being vegetarian had to do with what M was about.
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 13:20:47 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW and Anon
Subject: Bad Eggs
Message:
I think that being a vegetarian was one of the Hindi (Hindu?) ideas that came along with being a premie during the early to mid seventies. I was a housemother in a couple of premie houses and I remember the restriction on eating eggs very well (I had been a vegetarian before receiving knowledge, but still ate eggs). We used to use something called 'Jolly Joan Egg Substitute' to make baked goods, sometimes not so successfully!

Another inspired rule that I recall was the one about taking off your shoes when you came into the house (we did this in our premie house and of course everyone did it in the ashram). One of my friends got married in the ashram and her wedding picture shows her father giving her away in a suit and tan socks! Also, there was that rule about how only one person (the housemother), maybe two (her assistant), was allowed in the kitchen. This was supposed to 'keep the vibration pure'. It also forced the housemother to have to do all the work in the kitchen. I think that Mata Ji made that rule. We did that in our premie house too - I remember trying to explain it to our landlord who used to come into the house by the kitchen door! (He was an follower of Steiner so at least he didn't think I was nuts.)

Re Anon's story - I also know several people who were told to cut their hair and/or change their manner of dress before they could get Knowledge. We were told that M didn't want premie men to have long hair, and that he didn't want the premies to dress like hippies. I'm not sure when all these rules were rescinded, forgotten or changed...maybe after 1976?
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 20:11:23 (EDT)
From: Vacol
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Bad Eggs
Message:
Yesterday I was influenced by some archival posts I'd been reading in which premies I thought were being very unfairly slandered, so I responded to this light banter with frustration and anger. Alright, I'm human too. And hopefully like a good boxer I can take a punch as well as give one!!!
Vacol.
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 20:42:22 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Vacol
Subject: Bad Eggs
Message:
Dear Vacol - thanks for accepting our light chat about eggs! I'd be the first to agree that premies occasionally get unfairly slandered on here - but please remember that we were all (or almost all) once premies too!

Katie
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 22:26:48 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: No Shoes, Katie
Message:
Katie,
Off subject: I have to laugh, because we have the no shoes rule in our house. It's not enforced with guests, of course, but day to day we do not wear shoes in the house. I have some Korean friends and picked this up from them. It is customary in their family. They do enforce with guests and I always have to try to wear non-smelly shoes to their house when we visit. VP
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 22:46:48 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: No Shoes redux
Message:
Hi VP - It was easy for me to get used to the no shoes rule because the women in my family have never worn shoes in the house. My mom, sister, and I always leave shoes lying all over the entryway (to the dismay of our various husbands and partners!). I'm not sure if this has to do with living in Japan (we lived there in the early sixties) or just with not liking to wear shoes. It was easy for me to take my shoes off when coming into the ashram
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Date: Tues, Apr 14, 1998 at 22:49:15 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: No Shoes redux redux
Message:
(got cut off...) I meant to say that I still generally wear shoes to weddings and other formal occasions. I think my friend's dad would have chosen a different color socks if he has realized they were going to be immortalized for all time.
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