Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 21

From: Aug 4, 1998

To: Aug 18, 1998

Page: 4 Of: 5



Jim -:- Is this legal? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 11:34:58 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Is this legal? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 11:40:17 (EDT)
____Gerry -:- Is this legal? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 12:57:49 (EDT)
__Gerry -:- Is this legal? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 12:42:57 (EDT)
____Gerry -:- Is this ethical? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 14:07:40 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Is this ethical? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 14:13:30 (EDT)
______Mike -:- Is this ethical? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 14:44:46 (EDT)
________Katie -:- Legal, but maybe not ethical -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 14:54:18 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- Legal, but maybe not ethical -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:07:22 (EDT)
________Gerry -:- Is this ethical? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:03:55 (EDT)
__________Gerry -:- Is this ethical? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:06:54 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Is this ethical? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:07:49 (EDT)
____________Gerry -:- Is this enlightenment? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:32:24 (EDT)
______________Selena -:- can't find it -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:34:12 (EDT)
________________Gerry -:- Link for MMT Forum -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:39:14 (EDT)
__________________Selena -:- Link for MMT Forum -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:43:03 (EDT)
______________Runamok -:- Worse than M -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 18:07:11 (EDT)
________________Gerry -:- Worse than M -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 19:16:11 (EDT)
__________________Runamok -:- Worse than M -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 19:47:15 (EDT)
____________________Jim -:- See how good this was? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 19:59:09 (EDT)
______________________Katie -:- all the Jim-Jims -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 20:18:33 (EDT)
________________________Carol -:- premie Forum -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 22:06:54 (EDT)
__________________________Bobby -:- premie Forum -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 22:10:11 (EDT)
____________________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- premie Forum -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 00:48:44 (EDT)
______________________________Sir David -:- premie Forum -:- Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 20:11:33 (EDT)
________________________VP -:- all the Jim-Jims -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 23:09:53 (EDT)
__________________________Katie -:- all the Jim-Jims -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 23:51:55 (EDT)
____________________________Selena -:- liked the Jim-Jims post -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 00:09:49 (EDT)
______________________________Katie -:- liked the Jim-Jims post -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 00:20:32 (EDT)
________________________________VP -:- liked the Jim-Jims post -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 15:51:05 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- Is this ethical? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:42:50 (EDT)
____________Victoria -:- Rajneesh & Fashion -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 22:06:16 (EDT)
______________Runamok -:- Rajneesh & Fascism -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 01:13:45 (EDT)
________________Victoria -:- Rajneesh & Fascism -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 22:51:52 (EDT)
__________________Gerry -:- Guru Goofy -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 23:09:11 (EDT)
__________________Runamok -:- Guru Nazi -:- Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 03:37:34 (EDT)
____________________Jim -:- Was it anthrax? -:- Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 04:09:29 (EDT)
______________________Runamok -:- Was it anthrax? -:- Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 07:02:26 (EDT)
________________________Jim -:- It WAS samonella -:- Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 15:35:48 (EDT)
__________________________Runamok -:- It WAS samonella -:- Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 01:09:16 (EDT)
____________________________Jim -:- It WAS samonella -:- Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 03:15:03 (EDT)
______________________________Runamok -:- u funny guy NT -:- Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 10:12:10 (EDT)

BeckyykceB -:- GerryyrreG -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 09:05:50 (EDT)
__BeckyykceB -:- GerryyrreG -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 09:06:56 (EDT)
____VP -:- No longer the baby -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 23:13:24 (EDT)
______Becky -:- Ga ga goo goo -:- Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 08:10:53 (EDT)
________VP -:- Ga ga goo goo -:- Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 11:58:24 (EDT)
__________Becky -:- Ga ga goo goo -:- Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 13:23:28 (EDT)
____________Becky -:- Ga ga goo goo -:- Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 13:25:41 (EDT)
______________VP -:- I'm glad... -:- Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 13:41:50 (EDT)
________________Becky -:- Seeing the light -:- Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 07:36:46 (EDT)
__________________VP -:- Seeing the light -:- Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 13:18:30 (EDT)

Keith -:- Katie -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 02:27:45 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Quit whimpering! -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 09:46:51 (EDT)

Jim -:- a sweet quote (repost) -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:36:36 (EDT)
__x -:- a sick quote -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 18:52:55 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- a sweet quote (repost) -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 22:42:07 (EDT)
__Laura -:- throw up -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 23:57:23 (EDT)
____Rick -:- throw up -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:51:58 (EDT)
____JW -:- throw up -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 02:02:03 (EDT)
______Laura -:- throw up -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 10:32:27 (EDT)
________Mike -:- throw up -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 10:50:04 (EDT)
__________Laura -:- throw up -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 11:02:28 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- throw up -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 11:20:08 (EDT)
______________Carol -:- Me too! -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 21:46:09 (EDT)
________________Victoria -:- Me too! -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 22:29:01 (EDT)
__________________Carol -:- Me too! -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 22:54:25 (EDT)
____________________Gerry -:- Don't sweat it! -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 23:18:52 (EDT)
________________VP -:- For Carol , Mike and Laura -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 23:35:50 (EDT)

Emile -:- Jim's trip -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:12:25 (EDT)
__PaulR -:- Jim's trip -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:20:58 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Jim's trip -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:33:33 (EDT)
______Emile -:- Jim's trip -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 18:20:56 (EDT)
________Gerry -:- Jim's trip -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 18:49:01 (EDT)
__________Emile -:- Jim's trip -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 18:59:15 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- Jim's trip -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:08:11 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Can't shut it? Use it! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:09:44 (EDT)
______________Emile -:- Can't shut it? Use it! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:16:36 (EDT)
________________Gerry -:- Can't shut it? Use it! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:21:58 (EDT)
__________________Emile -:- Can't shut it? Use it! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:30:45 (EDT)
____________________Mike -:- Can't shut it? Use it! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:37:12 (EDT)
______________________Emile -:- Can't shut it? Use it! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:05:21 (EDT)
________________________Robyn -:- Can't shut it? Use it! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 22:56:41 (EDT)
__________________________Rick -:- Can't shut it? Use it! -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:54:02 (EDT)
____________________________Carol -:- Robyn Rocks! -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 01:08:56 (EDT)
______________________________Robyn -:- Robyn Rocks! -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 08:59:10 (EDT)
________________________________eb -:- Poppycock-LOL -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 16:57:49 (EDT)
____________________________Robyn -:- Can't shut it? Use it! -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 08:56:30 (EDT)
____________________________Robyn -:- Can't shut it? Use it! -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 10:22:28 (EDT)
______________________Selene / Selena -:- Can't shut it? Use it! -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:41:21 (EDT)
________________________Mike -:- Can't shut it? Use it! -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 11:09:02 (EDT)
____________________Gerry -:- Can't shut it? Use it! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:47:42 (EDT)
____________________Gerry -:- Can't shut it? Use it! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:47:54 (EDT)
______________________Gerry -:- oops can you fix my stutter nt -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:53:01 (EDT)
______________________Emile -:- sly-vibe -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:58:02 (EDT)
________________________Gerry -:- sly-vibe -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:11:26 (EDT)
________________________Jim -:- Premie word destruction -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 10:28:58 (EDT)
__________________________Gail MacDougall -:- Jack Tuff and others I know -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 20:08:35 (EDT)
____________________________Jim -:- Premie Stripper -:- Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 00:23:53 (EDT)
______________________________Selene -:- Premie Stripper -:- Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 01:25:27 (EDT)
________________Mike -:- Can't shut it? Use it! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:24:47 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- That's it? -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:25:13 (EDT)
__________________Mike -:- That's it? -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:31:40 (EDT)
__________________Emile -:- That's it? -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:47:54 (EDT)
____________________Jim -:- Strike two -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:01:33 (EDT)
______________________Emile -:- Strike two -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:11:05 (EDT)
________________________Jim -:- Strike two -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:24:50 (EDT)
____________________Mike -:- That's it? -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:04:16 (EDT)
____________________Laura -:- Dear Emilie:Fk You -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:22:04 (EDT)
______________________Mike -:- Dear Emilie:Fk You -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 11:28:43 (EDT)
______________________CD -:- Dear Emilie:Fk You -:- Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 16:55:35 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Jim's trip -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:04:27 (EDT)
______Gerry -:- Jim's trip -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 18:22:33 (EDT)
______PaulR -:- Jim's BIG EGO trip -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:12:55 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Incredulous -- me, incredulous -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:55:56 (EDT)
________JDL -:- Jim's BIG EGO trip -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 09:59:45 (EDT)
______Malibu Mole -:- Jim's trip/A Donner Tale -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:31:07 (EDT)
________g's mom -:- guru learns to share... -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 23:16:46 (EDT)
________Cat -:- Jim's trip/A Donner Tale -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 01:53:52 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Jim's trip/A Donner Tale -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:59:43 (EDT)
____________Gail -:- Thank God Donner was a draft- -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 20:13:57 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- Thank God Donner was a draft- -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 20:54:42 (EDT)
______Laura -:- off thread re Donner -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:10:31 (EDT)
________Jim -:- off thread re Donner -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 09:39:10 (EDT)
______VP -:- Hey, Jim -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:54:07 (EDT)
________Emile -:- love&joy -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 13:54:16 (EDT)
__________Selene -:- love&joy -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 14:18:59 (EDT)
__________VP -:- I missed that lie -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 14:22:58 (EDT)
____________Selena -:- I missed that lie -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 14:25:38 (EDT)
______________VP -:- I missed that lie -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 20:46:24 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- love&joy -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:23:33 (EDT)
____________Selena -:- love&joy -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:26:42 (EDT)
______________Mike -:- love&joy -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:57:02 (EDT)
__________Nigel -:- love&joy -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 17:53:48 (EDT)

Runamok -:- The Ex-Files -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 00:50:42 (EDT)
__Rick -:- The Ex-Files -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 07:16:07 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- The Ex-Files -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 09:00:50 (EDT)
____Runamok -:- The Ex-Files -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:49:51 (EDT)
______Carol -:- The Ex-Files -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:01:29 (EDT)
________Runamok -:- The Ex-Files -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 01:25:18 (EDT)
__Mel Bourne -:- The Ex-Files -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 06:07:22 (EDT)
____Runamok -:- The Ex-Files -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 07:39:18 (EDT)


Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 11:34:58 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is this legal?
Message:
Hey,

Insomnia, nothing better to do, read about the embassy bombings and, well, I just kind of drifted over to MMT. I mean it was a mistake, I wasn't really looking, I just kind of, ... well maybe I was SUPPOSED to or something.

Anyway, I read that link ytou put up Gerry, about that joker who wrote Pearl Onions or something. So, tell me, if I get busted for importing large amounts of Ecstasy, and I get out of jail with no visible means of support, and I move to Costa Rica and find a sweet spot to get away from it all, can I, too, invite people to stay with me for $1200 a week so I can show them how to get a life?

Then I read some stuff about... naw forget it.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 11:40:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is this legal?
Message:
Sorry, make that $1200 to 1500 which does include room AND board and on-site excursions. Weekend seminars (10 to 4, both days) are only $200 and $150 for repeat customers.

So the guy gets four of five people a week, let's say. Maybe 16 to 20 a month. Does that seem about right? Hmm. That's upwards of about $30,000 not including a few weekenders. Ask him about his business when you go see him, Gerry. I think I'm ready for a career change.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 12:57:49 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is this legal?
Message:
I think I'm ready for a career change.

I'm ready for a carreer, period!

Re Nadeen: He manufactured MDMA while it was still legal and moved his operations to other countries when the US made it illegal. He must have made a ton of money before he went to prison as he still owned some stuff, including his hotel resort on a mountain top in Costa Rica. He also owned jets and yatchs, but they were taken from him.

He tells his story of his horrific experience in prison with enough gusto to make my hair stand on end. As for his ''awakening'' who knows? Maybe the stress of his imprisonment put him over the edge. He does do a good job at deconstructing a lot of the new age ideas out there. Of course, he substitues his own beliefs, but there's something there I find attractive. Just like I find Dawkins' work appealing. Hey, maybe there's something to this astrology, Gemini stuff after all!

I haven't done the math on his income potential. I do know that the week long deals in Cost Rica or few and far between, I did read somewhere that he won't give a weekend ''intensive'' unless he's guaranteed attendence of 20 people. Four grand...not bad for two days work. Anyway, I'm going to the ten dollar Friday night version. As they say 'the first shot is always free.'' We'll see. And of course I'll give a complete report to all my cyber friends.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 12:42:57 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: glyng@techline.com
To: Jim
Subject: Is this legal?
Message:
Then I read some stuff about... naw forget it.

Jim,
Could you finish this sentence? E-mail me if you want, or say it here, or not.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 14:07:40 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is this ethical?
Message:
Jim,

MMT was established for people who's views and experiences would not be tolerated on this forum. It is supposed to be a place where people can speak without fear or intimidation. Since you posted your remarks, I've had a request from someone to remove one of their posts, as they did not want to held up to possible ridicule by having their remarks brought back here for public consumption.

I've also had an e-mail from another person who is now reluctant to post for the very same reasons. This sorta defeats the purpose of having this forum, doesn't it? But maybe that's your whole point, I don't know I can't read minds. Maybe you can clarify your intentions for me.

Personally I don't really care that you dragged my post over here for what ever reasons. But you sure have put a crimp in other peoples' freedom of expression.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 14:13:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Is this ethical?
Message:
But you sure have put a crimp in other peoples' freedom of expression.

Gerry,

I was all set to say that I wouldn't do that again. Then I read your last sentence. I know you don't really mean that. You don't, do you?

No, I won't do it again.

Jim

(But I think it's absolutely ethical. The net's public.)
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 14:44:46 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Is this ethical?
Message:
Gerry: this brings up the nature of the 'net.' It's a public forum. If someone takes a copy of my comments (who would, but you know what I mean) and holds them up to ridicule on another forum, well... That's the way it is. If I don't want to read the ridicule, I don't change the channel. You know what I mean? Is it ethical? yes (it's a non-copyrighted public forum). Would I do it to someone? probably not, but that's me. I would rather that the author bring their commentary themselves. That way it can be discussed with the author.

Just my opinion...
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 14:54:18 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Legal, but maybe not ethical
Message:
Mike wrote
If someone takes a copy of my comments (who would, but you know what I mean) and holds them up to ridicule on another forum, well... That's the way it is. If I don't want to read the ridicule, I don't change the channel. You know what I mean? Is it ethical? yes (it's a non-copyrighted public forum).

Mike, I think you mean that it's LEGAL. Ethical is a different matter - it has to do with moral judgements, right and wrong, and things like that. Or at least that's how I see it.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:07:22 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Legal, but maybe not ethical
Message:
I stand corrected... the agya thing has got me wrapped around the axle at the moment.... he he he. You are right, I did mean legal. The ethical part followed in my statement that 'I probably wouldn't do it....' Thanks.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:03:55 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Mike and Jim
Subject: Is this ethical?
Message:
Mike,

I think you're confusing ''ethical'' with ''legal''. Ethics have to do with moral standards and are of, course subjective, whereas legal has the authority of law. IMO it was not ethical (for me, anyway, other people have their own standards--that's why there are two different words to define thes two different concepts) to do what Jim did, and I appreciated the fact that he said he wouldn't do it again. Yes, the net is public and I have purchased my own little piece of cyber real estate and can do what I want to with it, don't you agree? As such it is private property and I can restrict ''tresspassers'' with password protection, which I have chosen to do. So if anyone would like to participate on MMT the Forum, please e-mail me for the password. I may not choose to comply with all requests.

Jim,

No, I don't mean to imply you are denying people their basic right to free expression. That's obviously too strong. Let me say you've got some people feeling uncomfortable with the public format of the forum and hence the requests for password protection.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:06:54 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Katie and Mike
Subject: Is this ethical?
Message:
Katie, you beat me to the punch. Sorry for the repetition, Mike
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:07:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Is this ethical?
Message:
No, I don't mean to imply you are denying people their basic right to free expression. That's obviously too strong. Let me say you've got some people feeling uncomfortable with the public format of the forum and hence the requests for password protection.

Boy, I feel terrible. Gerry, are you really going to give that guy ten bucks? For what? If so, why do you say the first one's free?

And WILL you ask him how much money a guy can make doing what he does? Come on, Gerr.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:32:24 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is this enlightenment?
Message:
I hate giving this guy ten bucks when I know I could spend it on liquid enlightenment that I know works every time. If the crowd's big enough I'll try to sneak in. Like the movies when I was a kid.

I'm definitely interested in the business aspect of this (ahem) enterprise and will try to get the stats. The guy definitely knows how to make money, and I DO want some sort of career before I get too old to work. But I was also stunned by his book. Not the run of the mill stuff you'd expect from a guy on the guru circuit.

In his case, the first fix, while not exactly free (ten bucks) is cheap relative to the weekend deal for two hundred, which I definitely can't afford right now with all the other (expensive) stuff I've got going on right now. And then there's that new project... Hey, I'll consider the ten to Nadeen as ''expense'' money for research.

Also, I hate it when people give themselves these new foo foo names--Satyam Nadeen=Ocean of Truth--what was wrong with Michael Clegg for god's sake? And guess who gave him the name? Rajneesh aka Osho no less! Talk about your roll models.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:34:12 (EDT)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: can't find it
Message:
Gerry I lost the link to MMT. Can you repost the url?
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:39:14 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Link for MMT Forum
Message:
The Forum at Magical Mystery Tour
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:43:03 (EDT)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Link for MMT Forum
Message:
Thanks Gerry. I wanted to talk more aobut how Nigel's astrology quiz surprised me but figured it wouldn't apply here. I'm not intimidated, I don't care too much if I get criticized here, but I do try to keep off-topic stuff to a minimum in my posts.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 18:07:11 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Gerry & Jim
Subject: Worse than M
Message:
Rajneesh?
I think it should stay on MMT.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 19:16:11 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Worse than M
Message:
Rajneesh?
I think it should stay on MMT.


What does this mean?

It sounds like your are trying to censor what I can say here. I'm starting to boil a little and am real tempted to tell you to go fuck yourself, but I'll restrain myself for the moment.

Michael Clegg, who had a long history of guru hoping, was a premie in the Houston area for years and also got involved in the Rajneesh thing in Oregon. Obviously, (or maybe not so obviously) he repudiates both.

I know every bit as well as you that Rajneesh is a corrupt rotten bastard. Please don't tell me what to do or what I can post or where I can post it. If you don't like it, tough shit.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 19:47:15 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Gerry
Subject: Worse than M
Message:
I just think Raj is whole nother can of worms of whom I could write many words. I avoid him like the plague. When you said the guy was from Rajnee I lost any interest in the subject like a pavlov dog. The only thing good about Raj was when it was time to see him as a fake he got stopped - couldn't enter other countries, couldn't get away. He was exposed and then died... At least there was some closure.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 19:59:09 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: See how good this was?
Message:
See how good it was that I teased Gerry here a bit about this Clegg fellow? Now Gerry knows more, we all know more and like that?

Anyway, like I posted (my one and only) on MMT, I think password protection there would be a WONDERFUL idea, in keeping with the spirit (or spirits) of that page.

Gerry, now you HAVE to go see this guy. Take a copy of JW's post to give him.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 20:18:33 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: all the Jim-Jims
Message:
Jim - You are not my favorite person on the forum OR MMT today, to put it mildly.

A lot of people wanted a place like MMT to keep from being flame fodder for people like YOU. I guess you don't like this. I guess you find it necessary to pull posts off of there and bring them on to here to make fun of. I guess MMT can be your new thing to deride, since Maharaji isn't enough for you.

Apparently Maharaji and his activities don't provide enough amusement for you anymore. You seem to need to flame anyone who says anything remotely spiritual or believes anything different than you. Gosh, since we started MMT, you've been reduced to criticising Robyn for writing 'Love, Robyn'. It must be pretty boring around here for you.

Like you know who says -

'All you guys with your big fat talk,
You can all go take a fucking walk...'
... Cause I really don't care any more
About all you Jim-Jim's in this town.
And all the politicians making crazy sounds.
About all the dead bodies piled up and down.'

Katie
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 22:06:54 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Katie, David, all
Subject: premie Forum
Message:
I think we won't see much action on the public premie forum either for the same reason. That their posts would be used here.
Carol
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 22:10:11 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: premie Forum
Message:
Plus somebody's playing games over there, using fake names like JW, Jim and Gerry.
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 00:48:44 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Bobby
Subject: premie Forum
Message:
Hi Bobby,
I noticed that someone was using fake names over on the Premie forum, too. I'm wondering who it might be; I have a hunch but I don't want to accuse anyone until I am relatively sure. Who do you think it is? My hunch is that it may be coming from Australia.
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 20:11:33 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: premie Forum
Message:
The fake posts were all coming from one person using a Mac computer. It may be possible to find out which country they came from by analysing the IP but does anyone really care? There's not much happening there at the moment.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 23:09:53 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: all the Jim-Jims
Message:
Katie,

You really shouldn't really write such 'people pleasing' posts...I mean you could be accused of trying to get along with everyone here-SNICKER!!
VP
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 23:51:55 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: all the Jim-Jims
Message:
Yeah, Veep, I know....

I sort of lost it in my post to Jim. I meant to say what I said, but I could have been a lot more considerate and diplomatic. And the Lou Reed quote probably wasn't justified. But I still think it's OK for people to have their own forum to discuss topics that most of the other people here don't want to talk or hear about.
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 00:09:49 (EDT)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: liked the Jim-Jims post
Message:
Katie, you need to break out sometimes. We all do. In fact
I think that is what Jim has been getting at in some of his
posts to you. I for one loved you post and it made me feel good
to see that you could do this. Of course I am rather morbid and out there so .... take this with a grain of ?
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 00:20:32 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: liked the Jim-Jims post
Message:
Thanks Selena -
I am glad you didn't think that the post was out of line, although I don't agree that it was something that Jim particularly wanted to hear from me if it was addressed to him (although maybe if it was addressed to someone else??)

Love,
Katie
(I can't stop doing this, you and Robyn have awakened my latent training! I know I'm going to start putting 'Love' on my business correspondence by mistake...)
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 15:51:05 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: liked the Jim-Jims post
Message:
I was really directing my comment above towards Keith/MB. I couldn't believe that he said that you were a 'people pleaser'. I don't see you that way and that jim-jim post is an example of why.

I think you are very good at expressing yourself and sticking up for what you believe. I thought Keith was way off base and his post to you was nasty, mean spirited AND innacurate. I don't know what is going on with him.

Far be it from me to say that you should be nicer to anyone. That is not what I meant above :)

LOVE,
VP
Caught the bug from Robyn
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:42:50 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Is this ethical?
Message:
Sorry, I WAS talking 'legal' when I wrote the word 'ethical.' You may have noticed that I did cover the ethical argument in the next few sentences. Sorry about the confusion. My fault.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 22:06:16 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rajneesh & Fashion
Message:
I don't know much about Rajneesh, I guess he is called Osho now. But I did like seeing his followers all dressed up in varied shades of red, orange, pink, purple, etc. Who said white was the only holy color anyway? White is so hard to keep clean, you know, without a bunch of bleach, which of course, is hard on the material.

=)

Victoria
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 01:13:45 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Victoria
Subject: Rajneesh & Fascism
Message:
I didn't want to get into this.. but Rajneesh devotees were alleged (and possibly charged and/or convicted) of bacterial terror in Oregon. I believe this to be accurate and not an isolated incident in the least. Raj actually outdid M at being a greedy bastard who used people for his own petty fulfillment. His land in Oregon, open to the public- like homeless people- turned away people who came in response to an open call to live there. 'Who'll be driving all the fast cars? Who'll be getting all the action?'
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 22:51:52 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Rajneesh & Fascism
Message:
What is bacterial terror?

All I heard about the guy was something about being kicked out of the country for tax evasion or something like that.

I thought he looked more 'spiritual' than M, but then, 'beauty is only skin deep' as they say...the eye of the beholder and all that...

Victoria
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 23:09:11 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Guru Goofy
Message:
God, that Long Beach video...

M looked so uncoordinated when he ''danced'' and his voice sounded the same as it did when he was fifteen. Is there any PROOF those are his kids? I'm seriously beginning to wonder if he ever reached puberty.
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Date: Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 03:37:34 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Guru Nazi
Message:
They put anthrax or some such agent in local food or water supplies. Honest, I don't want to remember. Again, we're talking cult, so you've got a 'lieutenant' who was convicted (I believe) without evidence directly linked to Raj. It had to do with winning some local election in Oregon to control zoning. They apparently were actually plotting some kind of mass murder to control the local government (to create a majority in a small town). That's why he was so universally discredited. My understanding is that it was not limited to a few individuals. They also put out a national call to the homeless and then turned them away when they showed up from all over the country- really hurt to watch when it happenned. It reminded me of M at the time but I was really only starting to understand that.
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Date: Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 04:09:29 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Was it anthrax?
Message:
I don't think so, Run. I may be wrong but I think what happened was they poisoned all the diners at a local restaurant to prevent them from getting out and voting. It was some kind of exotic poison, I'm trying to think. Yah, maybe it was... no, it couldn't have been anthrax. It was some other possibly deadly bacteria or something. Anthrax? Maybe. No, it couldn't have been anthrax? Or could it? Was it? Wait! I've got it! Wasn't it botulism? Yeah, I think that's it.

Anyway, nobody died or anything. I don't see what the big deal is. I mean I don't THINK anyone died. Did they? Did anyone die? I mean we would ahve heard, it would ahve been a big thing. I mean someone could have died, I guess. No, I don't think anyone did, though. Or did they? No, of course not. Of course not.... That is, I'm pretty SURE no one died. Not then anyway....
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Date: Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 07:02:26 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Jim
Subject: Was it anthrax?
Message:
Botulism or salmonella, I think. It's not true that we would have heard. It's possible either way. Enforcement is easy to come by in a cult. There's every kind of grey area from murder to Raj was a good guy with some bad disciples. There were other activities besides those we mention here.
That was the 80's. The economy was bad. When they announced in the media that people could go live there, their hidden agenda was to control the voting in the area where they lived. After being announced on national tv, they turned the people away. You're homeless and scrounge up a bus ticket- starve a few days and then get told to get lost.
It reminds me of Mirageji with his promise of land in the early 80's.
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Date: Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 15:35:48 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: It WAS samonella
Message:
Run,

That's it, samonella. And it WAS reported in the press. That's how I know about it.

The whole restaurant was taken off to the hospital. But it's not like anyone got really hurt. Why even mention it? :)
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Date: Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 01:09:16 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Jim
Subject: It WAS samonella
Message:
C'mon Jim, they were trying to murder people to increase their power in the area and TO INCREASE fatso's wealth!
Are you serious? You a closet sanyasi or something?
Do you think Raj was better than Gooma because they had more sex?
I mean c'mon...
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Date: Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 03:15:03 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: It WAS samonella
Message:
Are you serious?

No
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Date: Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 10:12:10 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: u funny guy NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 09:05:50 (EDT)
From: BeckyykceB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: GerryyrreG
Message:
Don't worry Gerry. I'm still only 26. Have got too much to see and do, and consider before I think of doing that. I think I'm more of a universal person (I hope). Anyway the Qur'an says that righteous and kind people 'need have no fear'. (I'm not saying I'm righteous or kind but if I try to be I think this may be passable).
Adieu ueidA until MondayyadnoM.
BeckyykceB
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 09:06:56 (EDT)
From: BeckyykceB
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: GerryyrreG
Message:
Sorry, I was referring to your comment below about 'taking the veil'
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 23:13:24 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: BeckyykceB
Subject: No longer the baby
Message:
Dear BeckyykceB,

Sooooooo glad you are only 26. It's no fun being the baby. No one ever takes you seriously. Just wait and see ;-)

VPPV
No longer the baby of the forum-yippppeeee
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Date: Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 08:10:53 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Ga ga goo goo
Message:
How old are you then?
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Date: Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 11:58:24 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Ga ga goo goo
Message:
Mid thirties

I think there are a few other people here around your age, too, so I was just kidding you about being the baby. Just a term of endearment, really. It's nice that you have seen the light with so much of your life in front of you :)
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Date: Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 13:23:28 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Ga ga goo goo
Message:
I don't know about seeing the light, but I certainly feel stronger calmer and clearer without MJ.
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Date: Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 13:25:41 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Ga ga goo goo
Message:
By the way, I know you weren't being patronising. I do have a sense of humour! Here's to all the babies of the forum.
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Date: Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 13:41:50 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: I'm glad...
Message:
..you have a sense of humor! I thought that you did. Think I confused you with TD for a second there on the 'seeing the light' thing-my apologies.
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 07:36:46 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Seeing the light
Message:
You've lost me VP. Seeing the light, confused with TD (who?), apologies. EH?
Re: seeing the light - I don't think I'm arrogant enough to say that that has ever happened to me.
However, I remember the moment when I was sitting with a group of aspirants listening to M, and he said 'Buy the videos, tell your friends' and I thought, 'what is this plastic sales pitch'? I guess it was more 'seeing the plastic' than 'seeing the light'!
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 13:18:30 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Seeing the light
Message:
I meant that you had seen the falsehood of M-- but then I remembered that I wasn't quite sure where you stand on that issue. I had you confused momentarily with TD, who has recently left the cult, hence the apology. I used 'seeing the light' as a verbal pun...never mind. (oh, 'never mind' is another good verbal pun---ENOUGH!)
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 02:27:45 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Katie
Message:
Sorry Katie .
I let M.B get out of hand!
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 09:46:51 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Quit whimpering!
Message:
Sorry Katie .
I let M.B get out of hand!


So this is the sad puppy phase? Christ! Even puppies grow up after a while.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:36:36 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: a sweet quote (repost)
Message:
In a post to PT below I offered another quote I recently found (thanks Katie):

from the December, 1975 Divine Times, Maaharaji's satsang, November 9, 1975:

The Lord Himself reincarnates, reincarnates, reincarnates Himself for the very purpose of saving us. And we do not even realize who gave us the authority to refuse Him! Who are we anyway? From which field do we come that we can reject, that we can refuse, that we can deny our Lord? This is something that
I cannot answer. And we do it every time!. Because we have got a stupid ego. ..... We just don't know that we are His puppets.


***[a lot of stuff about how he could suck all the atmosphere away, etc.]

So when Lord comes to us, accept Him. And Lord is here. He has always been here. How can we make a statment, 'The Lord is gone', and then turn aroudn and say, 'Lord is omnipresent'? We are contradicting ourselves. He has always been here. He has always been saving us, but it's us who pull out of His shelter. [and on and on and ON!]
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 18:52:55 (EDT)
From: x
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: a sick quote
Message:
I can't believe that anybody could even dream of denying that bm said he was god, I mean it's beyond ridiculous isn't it? 'He never said he was god.' I've heard this stupid statement too many times. 'Guru is greater than god', that's very damning, how much more does any sane, rational person need to admit that MAHARAJI SAID HE IS GOD? end of story! The lyrics to arti claim he is god over and over. How much evidence will it take? The above quote Jim entered, is just one of hundreds. BM never said he was god, Nicole Brown Simpson was murdered by Columbian coke dealers, and the jews invented the holocaust for sympathy. Come on you moron premies, lets hear you explain how bm manages to be greater than god and just a humble(?) meditation teacher at the same time. I'm serious you knucleheads.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 22:42:07 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: a sweet quote (repost)
Message:
Jim,
To use a phrase you used for awhile that use to crack me up and I used it for a bit till I forgot:
Ca Ca!
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 23:57:23 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Jim and all
Subject: throw up
Message:
The quote makes me want to vomit. Of course gm said he was god, there is no doubt and no worthwhile discussion on this issue.

When gm said he was god, that he was my mother, my father, my all - I literally went home to my parents and disowned them, verbally and to their faces. I told them gm was the only parent i had. Oh, i was so wise. I was angry with my mom and dad because they let me believe they were my parents. I was angry with them because they did not know enough to search for a true master, a savior, a satguru. Makes you want to vomit too, doesn't it?
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:51:58 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: throw up
Message:
I also said some really dumb things to my parents. I still can't believe I was so dumb.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 02:02:03 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: throw up
Message:
Laura, I can relate so much to what you are saying. The way I treated my parents and family after I got sucked into Maharaji's cult makes to cringe to this day when I think about it. More than just rejecting them, I laid the Maharaji cult-trip on them, because Ii was stupid enough to believe what Maharaj Ji told me.

But I'll have to say, when I came to my parents house in 1983 and told them I was no longer in the cult and that I was wrong to have ever believed in Maharaji, and I understood he was a charlatan, they accepted me completely and they were so happy for me. I felt like I got my TRUE family back and I was so touched at how little resentment they felt for how I had rejected them. That reunification with my family was MUCH better and more satisfying than ANYTHING I ever experience with K of M in the 10 years I followed him.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 10:32:27 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: throw up
Message:
You are so lucky. I became so separated from my family I gave up sharing anything with them.

I am now starting a new part of my life - and need to relearn how to relate to people.

Thank you for your post.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 10:50:04 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: throw up
Message:
I just read the thread... Laura, believe me when I tell you, 'Been there, done that!' Please give it a try (talking with your parents) when you feel it's time. Don't let embarrassment stop you. They will understand. I think most of the early premies did the same thing to their friends and family. But, you know what? All of my friends and all of my family not only forgave me, they actually acted as if nothing had happened. They were just waiting for me to come to my senses (and patiently wait they did). You would know the correct 'timing' better than me, but don't wait too long. ;-)
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 11:02:28 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: throw up
Message:
Dear Mike,

I don't mean just my parents. I mean every single living person I came into contact with. If a person had Knowledge, then they were my equal. If not, then I thought I was way beyond them, superior, saved. How deluded I was. I didn't progress much in my spirituality or quest for 'truth' because I thought I had it. My relationships never grew into much because I only wanted one relationship, one relationship with god, and god damn it, and i never had that one either.

I'm going to start looking for a new life - NOW!
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 11:20:08 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: throw up
Message:
Ditto Laura. I'm even VERY sorry that I assisted other premies in becoming more wound-up into the trip by me giving a decent satsang (brainwash booster-shot). YES, I feel very responsible for that. In fact, maybe I can start clearing myself of that right here and now! There are three people on this forum who I know personally. To those three: Carol, Scott T, and John K, please accept my humble, and heartfelt, apologies for making it even more difficult for you to extricate yourselves from the M nightmare by so carelessly giving you those brainwash boosters back in our premie days. I know other people did it too, but that doesn't relieve me of my responsibility for doing it. I really do mean it, I AM SORRY!

M: if you are lurking and reading this, see how easy it is to take responsibility. Try it, it really frees the soul!
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 21:46:09 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com
To: Mike
Subject: Me too!
Message:
I'm sorry for any convincing satsang I might have done in front of anyone out there and for any subtle (or not) superiority I displayed. I also still feel fond and loving thoughts for many old friends and aquaintances. If you know me, please let me know maybe some more of my brain will awaken from the memories!
Carol
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 22:29:01 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Carol & Laura
Subject: Me too!
Message:
Same here. I've had an opportunity to apologize to some people, but of course, many people have slipped away. Until I found this forum, I had no idea how to contact anyone from the old days, except to go to a program...which I was reluctant, even a little scared, to do.

When I was a premie, my mom was very supportive of my new-found spiritual feelings and experiences. Since she had wanted to be a contemplative nun before she met my dad, she could relate to a lot of what I was saying and feeling. My dad, by the time I found Maharaji, was an atheist. Sometimes I think that following Maharaji was the only way to really rebel against my dad, who was an extremely liberal anything-goes type of guy back then. With the exception of anything religious, of course.

I read in the Guru Papers recently -- the idea that if the Guru is a charlatan, then that is his bad karma...that this realization can free you up then, to concentrate on the experience, etc., without having to worry about who the guru is.
This is one concept that, for me, was totally internalized and I feel is at the source of many of my problems over the years. You know, I've been open to so much crap, just because if they were fucking with me and not sincere, then that was their bad karma...and now, I'm starting to doubt the concept of karma, itself. So where does that leave me?

Just a fool, a fool, a fool.

Victoria
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 22:54:25 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Me too!
Message:
We are fools and strangers in good company! Did you see the Canadian movie:'Strangers in Good Company? Very good!
Carol
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 23:18:52 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Don't sweat it!
Message:
The concept of karma IS a bunch of crap!
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 23:35:50 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: C, M and L
Subject: For Carol , Mike and Laura
Message:
Carol and Mike,

I really appreciate hearing you apologize. You never have done anything negative to me personally, but the fact that you feel remorse for your part and are trying to make amends is to be commended. Those posts were powerful to me. I wish I could hear similar words from some people I know.

Laura,

Being a family member of premies, I can tell you that I would forgive anything if I knew that these people had seen the error of their ways. Maybe someday...
You can have a new life and still let people know that you have seen the light. No matter what you did, you might be amazed by the way you are received if you tell them you were wrong. Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:12:25 (EDT)
From: Emile
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jim's trip
Message:
How did your little recruitment exercise in the Kootenays go? It seems you leave a trail of confusion wherever you go.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:20:58 (EDT)
From: PaulR
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: Jim's trip
Message:
Oh Shit! I thought you were posting about an EGO trip.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:33:33 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PaulR
Subject: Jim's trip
Message:
PaulR,

You're the idiot who posted that garbage about the Protocols of Zion, right? Yeah, that's the one. Go fuck yourself, will you?

Emile,

The trip went nicely. Thanks for asking. I met up with some old premies, explained to them all that I know and they listened. The next morning I spoke to the woman on the phone and she told me that the information had a strong impact on them and that they no longer believe in Maharaji. No shit. It was that simple.

Hey, I'm the first to admit that this is a rarity. But these guys knew me well, know I wouldn't lie to them and, well my girlfriend and I spelled out so much data they, as plain, old regular, premies in the trenches, would never have known. Like about Maharaji's and Marolyn's affairs, like about some of the money scandals, like about the initiator sex trips that Maharaji never protected premies from. Like the fact that your coward guru is afraid to talk to anyone with half a brain (mke that someone not afraid of using their brain).

Ironically, one of these premies was one that I'd given a hell of a lot of satsang to in the first place, years ago in Calgary. I gave him his first satsang even. He reminded me of his then-roommate who came over to the ashram for dinner with him one night. That guy took one loko at our trip and laughed it away immediately as a silly cult. He was in university then. Maybe that helped. Anyway, lucky guy.

I left a copy of the Lord of the Universe video with them. Ha ha ha!!

Then there was my time with Ockenden and Donner. They both say nothing in defense of Maharaji and we spent the night reminsicing and laughing about how stupid we'd been. Donner, who's a bit too new age for my comfort, postulated that maybe, like Hitler, Maharaji's part of some universal plan to test the world. He was just being silly out loud. I told him that was absolutely ridiculous. He smiled and took another swig. He confirmed, as I've mentioned before, that Maharaji was having an affair with Monica Lewis even back when he was involved (up to 86). He also confirmed that Maharjai was involved in sneaking Mahatma Fakiranand out of the country rather than face the authorities for attempting to kill the guy who threw a pie in Maharaji's face.

Thanks for asking. And what did you do for your summer vacation?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 18:20:56 (EDT)
From: Emile
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim's trip
Message:
I bumped into the woman you are talking about. Sorry man,but she still loves Maharaji, the confusing part is that she likes and respects you but not your vendetta against Maharaji. The next time you are in town I'd like to get together if you're into it. You can reach me through our mutual friends.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 18:49:01 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: Jim's trip
Message:
Hi Emile,

Iam assuming you are a premie. Can you tell me a little about yourself, how you got involved and what you think about the whole trip now? Do you still participate, i.e. service, videos, meditation, darshan? Do you believe M is the Perfect Master of our time?

What do you think about the facts of M's life and his treatment of premies? Or perhaps everyone here is lying, or is it just his divine lila. I'm really curious to hear your views, we don't get to hear from too many devotees here, because, as you know, M frowns on internet communication.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 18:59:15 (EDT)
From: Emile
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Jim's trip
Message:
I don't think you do want to hear about me or my relationship with Maharaji. Because everyone seems to make it clear that if you are a good premie you won't be communicating on these pages. Sorry Maharaji but I just can't keep my mouth shut when I see so many lies and twisted truths being propogated.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:08:11 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: Jim's trip
Message:
No Emile, you are wrong. We REALLY do want to hear about it. The 'premies' that have communicated on these pages, so far, have been relatively hard to understand (understatement in the extreme) and not very clear concerning anything. I, for one, would actually like to hear a coherent premie tell me how he/she feels about M, now. And MAYBE actually carry on an intelligent conversation with one. The only person that says you are not welcome to post here is M. He is the one that told you to not communicate over the internet, not me (or us for that matter). Gerry isn't kidding. What lies, half-truths and twists are you referring to?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:09:44 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: Can't shut it? Use it!
Message:
Sorry Maharaji but I just can't keep my mouth shut when I see so many lies and twisted truths being propogated.

Emile,

I know the feeling. At least I think I do. Well, maybe I don't. Who cares?

Anyway,anyway, if you're willing to violate Maharaji's agya here to defend him, fine, go for it. Defend him. What 'lies' do you take issue with? Don't waste time, spell out the 'lie', tell us what's wrong with it and, if'n you don't mind, tell us how you know. Please don't be vague or superficial. Let's get down, bro'!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:16:36 (EDT)
From: Emile
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Can't shut it? Use it!
Message:
Listening to you-all blame Maharaji for everything but the Vietnam war. It's kinda like blaming L.S.D. for someone having a bad trip when several other people took the same L.S.D. and had a great time.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:21:58 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: Can't shut it? Use it!
Message:
Listen Emile, I was only in the cult for a short time in 1973. I don't blame M for anything outside of his cult trip. I still think he is destructive and harmful. Even more now that I've heard what happened after I left so very long ago. Why is this do you think? Why should I even concern myself with something that happened to me over 25 years ago? Tell us your story. Please.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:30:45 (EDT)
From: Emile
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Can't shut it? Use it!
Message:
My story is simple. I've had a dificult life like most people. I received K. in '73. And have never regreted it for a moment. The only consistant thing in my life has been my relationship with Maharaji.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:37:12 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: Can't shut it? Use it!
Message:
Emile: the relationship you have, is it 'personal' ? Does he really even know that you exist? (e.g. have you made physical, first hand contact on a regular basis) Or is it more a 'spiritual' relationship? You said that the only 'constant' thing in your life was M. Ok, then explain how you view his fall from being lord of the universe to just a meditation teacher. Was it all just a big mistake? Did he say he made a mistake in letting premies think he was god? I AM serious. I would really like to know if he ever did this. From everything I know and have seen, this is not the case.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:05:21 (EDT)
From: Emile
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Can't shut it? Use it!
Message:
My relationship with Maharaji is personal and intimate, He has never let me down. whoever I believe Maharaji to be is also personal and intimate. But I certainly never feel compelled or influenced to believe one thing or another.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 22:56:41 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Emile
Subject: Can't shut it? Use it!
Message:
Dear Emile,
I sense the thick fog moving in to this conversation right here with your post:
But I certainly never feel compelled or influenced to believe one thing or another.

Poppy Cock, I say! What does that mean, everyone has been compelled or influenced to belive one thing or another at one time or another.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:54:02 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Can't shut it? Use it!
Message:
My... we are a little testy, aren't we? And we've sharpened up quite a bit, too.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 01:08:56 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Robyn Rocks!
Message:
Hey, Rick, she always said she was intuitive! But she's gotten better at speaking her mind while I've been watching! Did your swearing tutelage bring out that 'Poppycock'. What does that really mean anyway!
Carol
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 08:59:10 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Carol
Subject: Robyn Rocks!
Message:
Dear Carol,
Thanks, Poppycock is pretty strong I know. Hope it didn't offend anyone.:) I think it is a bird penis, I know it isn't but that is always what I think of, just how my mind works, look out Jim, clear the decks!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 16:57:49 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Poppycock-LOL
Message:
ohmigod, Robin. a bird penis, really? I always pictured a phallic flower, myself. (but then, you know me)

Yer gettin good at them there slam dunks! Rick is quite a coach.

eb
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 08:56:30 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Can't shut it? Use it!
Message:
Dear Rick,
Glad you approve now just put in a good word for me with Jim!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 10:22:28 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Can't shut it? Use it!
Message:
Dear Rick,
I guess with this water situation I am more in touch with my inner bitch! and letting it out here before I go to forum lite. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:41:21 (EDT)
From: Selene / Selena
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Can't shut it? Use it!
Message:
Hi Mike
Emile says :
'
The only consistant thing in my life has been my relationship with Maharaji.

and you ask him/her the details. My bet is you will never get a straight answer from Emile because Emile has NO intimiate personal relationship with the bigM except in his/her own brainwashed head.
I have heard this 'only constant' statement from premies over and over. Premies who have never even gotten a good seat at the goo-roo-do's much less talked to the lord of the U. I know that you already know this Mike but I just felt like commenting on E's comment.
I have that intimate relationship crap almost as much as I hate the 'M's presence' crap. It's a toss-up as to which one is more obnoxious.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 11:09:02 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Selene / Selena
Subject: Can't shut it? Use it!
Message:
Selena: It's evasion, pure and simple. You are quite correct, all the way down the line. Emile comes on here with a statement that we are telling outright lies, distorting and twisting the truth, then apologizes to M for being here in the first place. THEN, when Jim and I (at almost the same second) ask him to tell us what those lies are, Emile clams up. So I try to continue the dialogue by asking him about his relationship with M and all Emile can give me is that close-hold crap about intimate and personal. You see, I don't like being called a liar. I certainly don't like being called a liar without justification. Where have I lied? What was the lie? How am I twisting the truth? I calls 'em likes I sees 'em. If I'm wrong, PROVE IT! If I'm a liar, tell me where I lied. If I am twisting something out of all reality, tell me where I went wrong. I will listen. The premies still don't get it. They think we are making this stuff up because we are so inherently evil. Well folks, I'm not an evil man. I'm a person that loves truth (even when it makes me very unhappy). Do the premies think we enjoyed finding out that the one we thought was LOTU, was really a sham? Does it sound like we are having fun dealing with all of the brainwash crap? If it does sound like we are having fun dealing with it, then the premies are further into la-la land than I ever thought possible. Just don't call me a liar, unless YOU CAN PROVE IT premies!

Sorry Selene, this wasn't meant for you. It was meant for the premie lurkers and apologists that sometimes chime in. Man, I actually thought that Emile was going to give us some real dialogue (he could actually put his thoughts down in a fairly coherent manner; you know... complete sentences and everything).
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:47:42 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: Can't shut it? Use it!
Message:
I never got much out of meditation and the darshan experience was, well confusing. I felt nothing. How about you? (If it's not too personal.) Did you get involved in any of the big service projects like the airplane in Florida? I'd like to hear about it from a different (premie) prospective. I've only heard one side of the story--the one I've heard here. Do you mind?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:47:54 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: Can't shut it? Use it!
Message:
I never got much out of meditation and the darshan experience was, well confusing. I felt nothing. How about you? (If it's not too personal.) Did you get involved in any of the big service projects like the airplane in Florida? I'd like to hear about it from a different (premie) prospective. I've only heard one side of the story--the one I've heard here. Do you mind?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:53:01 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: oops can you fix my stutter nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:58:02 (EDT)
From: Emile
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: sly-vibe
Message:
For some reason I don't believe you are sincere.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:11:26 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: glyng @ techline ,com
To: Emile
Subject: sly-vibe
Message:
I understand. I've included my e-mail address. I think a lot of people would be interested in your answers, but I can understand your reticence. BTW, I received K from Mahatma Parlokanand, how about you? I felt bad when it was alleged he was molesting little boys.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 10:28:58 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: Premie word destruction
Message:
For some reason I don't believe you are sincere.

There you go again, generic premieji. Actually, not knowing who you really are (Jack Tuff perhaps? Aw, it doesn't matter!) is kind of fitting. You can't think for yourself, you barely can speak for yourself (certainly not under your own name) and what you do say is just boilerplate premiespeak.

Sincere? What exactly does that mean to you? Does the word make you imagine your inner child all doe-eyed and innocent, pre-logical and full of trust? Well it should! That's how Maharaji misused it. In the real world, even the most ruthless, hard-edged, cynical skeptic can be sincere. But tell me, do you think Maharaji would ever attribute sincerity to someone like that? Of course not. For him, 'sincerity' means playing dumb, avoiding your own thought process and basically being a new age guru ninnie.

Don't believe me? Test it. Ask Maharaji, your intimate friend, if he thinks any of the ex premies here are sincere. We know he refuses to talk with anyone here, answer anyone's quesitons, what have you. We also know, from decades of knowing him far too well, that, if he ever bothered to justify avoiding us, it would be because we're not 'sincere'. We're not 'coming from the right place'. So ask your intimate friend if that goes for every last person here. Ask him to explain to you how Laura, for example, is insincere. Of course, if he ever deigned to speak with you about this -- sincerely, I mean, not in his typical flip, smirk, thinks-he's-one-hell-of-alot-funnier-than-he-is mode --he'd tell you that even Laura isn't sincere. He'd have to. How else could he jsutify stonewalling her?

So for Maharaji, sincerity just means not questioning him. He might pretend, as might you, that there is a way to question him and still be sincere but, in reality, no one's ever done that. Of course not, not when the 'heart' has another way.

And while we're at it, let's talk about 'intimate'. Normally, that's a perfectly good, simple english word. It does not apply to relationships where A never speaks with B, or where, even after decades and decades, B could never ID A in a photo lineup. That just turns the word on its head.

No, the truth is, Emile, that while you might LIKE to have an intimate realtionship with Maharaji (probably so that you, too, can get close enough to see through him like over 90% of the people who've ever had the pleasure) you're just not rich enough. Or, there are still too many premies hiding in the bunker with Herr Maharaji. Hey that's it! Hang in there another couple of years and you might get a backstage pass by simple attrition. You know, they throw an 'event' (ANOTHER word that used to mean something), hardly anyone comes, and EVERYONE gets a backstage pass? Hey maybe that's your dream? To one day play Pancho Sanchez to a wandering Don Quixote of a guru, or the Fool to Maharaji's Lear.
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 20:08:35 (EDT)
From: Gail MacDougall
Email: None
To: Jack Tuff
Subject: Jack Tuff and others I know
Message:
Hi Jack:

How are you? I stumbled onto this website about two months ago. I am cured of Maharaji now, but I have a lot of the negative programming left.

If you want to keep you beliefs, I wouldn't read here too long. We were duped. I know it all fits, but remember anthing that looks too good to be true probably isn't.

MJ is probably just as much of a victim as we were/are. It feels really freeing not to HAVE to be involved anymore. I don't have to go the videos. I don't have to meditate. I don't have to donate my time and money. I don't have to go to the programs with MJ anymore.

Try it. You'll like it. Otherwise, enjoy your life as a slave. By the way, MJ did tell us not to go out on the net in May, 1998 in Miami. I was there.

All the best.

Yours truly,

Gail
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Date: Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 00:23:53 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gail MacDougall
Subject: Premie Stripper
Message:
Gail,

Jack ain't going nowhere. He's frozen in his guru space. Can't really rationalize it, falls back on vagueness and stutters the word 'experience' a lot. Push him on any point and he glares.

You know what these guys are like when they get like that? Stripped gears. Naw, I don't nothing about gears but I DO know waht a stripped screw looks like. There's nothing to catch the screwdriver. It just turns round and round. Talking to premies is like that.

Let's face it, people don't just get caught in weird religions. They also spend their whole lives there.
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Date: Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 01:25:27 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Premie Stripper
Message:
Let's face it, people don't just get caught in weird religions.
They also spend their whole lives there.

You caught me with that subject line :) Thought you were talking
about some of my old friends.
But, then you are. Though they aren't friends anymore and that is sad that they get caught for life. Why? What is the final appeal to going to those events over and over?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:24:47 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: Can't shut it? Use it!
Message:
Emile: nice analogy, but it's faulty. LSD is an inanimate object, M is not.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:25:13 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: That's it?
Message:
Listening to you-all blame Maharaji for everything but the Vietnam war. It's kinda like blaming L.S.D. for someone having a bad trip when several other people took the same L.S.D. and had a great time.

Hey man, I ask you for a few details and THIS is what you've got to say?

(By the way, it's an absolutely terrible analogy but -- uh uh -- I'm not going to tell you why until you pitch the ball properly).

Okay, strike one.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:31:40 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's it?
Message:
Sorry Jim, I let the cat out of the bag about 60 seconds before you said you weren't going to tell him why the analogy was so bad.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:47:54 (EDT)
From: Emile
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's it?
Message:
What? It seems like the perfect analogy for what I was feeling. You guys all claim to be so hard-done-by by Maharaji while I was there and have nothing but sweet memories. I think we've had this conversation before Jim. It just seems to me that you are creating much more of a cult in these pages then ever was with Maharaji. Also you keep quoting Maharaji from the 70's, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be held accountable for stuff I said back then. It' so bloody irrelevent to who I am right now.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:01:33 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: Strike two
Message:
Also you keep quoting Maharaji from the 70's, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be held accountable for stuff I said back then.

I asked for 'lies' and you mention Maharaji's own words. Am I supposed to draw a connection here?

Emile, do we know each other or not? Are you in Nelson?

Also, as for waht you said above, you sure as hell should want to be held accountable for what you said in the 70s if you happened to get people to surrender their lives to you then, lock, stock and barrel. Don't be absurd.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:11:05 (EDT)
From: Emile
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Strike two
Message:
Who the fuck made you the umpire. I try to give you a sincere answer and you brush me off with this strike two bullshit.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:24:50 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: Strike two
Message:
It's strike two because you're not even trying to back up your initial insults. Remember? We're all 'liars', this is a 'cult', etc. Well, dude, what lies?

(Don't worry. This was only a ball.)
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:04:16 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: That's it?
Message:
Emile: Your memories are fine. That isn't what we are talking about. You did make a statement concerning being held accountable. I AM still accountable for statements I made in the 70's. It's called personal accountability. I take responsibility for my actions and words, lo those many years ago. I appreciate the fact that you would not want to be held accountable for statements you made back then. BUT, there is one HUGE difference between you and M; you didn't present yourself as the lord of the universe one day, then turn around and say that you are just a humble meditation teacher. Additionally, you didn't (and probably wouldn't) ALLOW ANYONE else to say that about you, either. M did allow it! That's a pretty large statement to make and dismiss without so much as a howdy-do. This isn't stuff we made up, you know. I just wonder how YOU dealt with it; it's fairly obvious how I dealt with it.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:22:04 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: Dear Emilie:Fk You
Message:
I can't believe you said this. My mouth is hanging open and my heart has stopped. are you saying we shouldn't hold gm accountable for the FACT that he said things like follow me i am your god, because because because Why did you say we shouldn't hold him accountable? And by the way, everthing gm said to me is sure as hell relevant to who I am right now.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 11:28:43 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Dear Emilie:Fk You
Message:
Laura: Good for you! Good questions, too! (and you now notice the sound of crickets as emile slinks back into HIS world!)

;-)
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Date: Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 16:55:35 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Dear Emilie:Fk You
Message:
>are you saying we shouldn't hold gm accountable for the FACT that he said things like follow me i am your god

Thats right.
Don't blame others for your misuderstandings.

>And by the way, everthing gm said to me is sure as hell relevant to who I am right now.

Aren't you the person that said you haven't been around any premies for 20 years?

CD
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:04:27 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Emile
Subject: Jim's trip
Message:
Hey, Emile,

Do I know you? Is that really your name? All I can say is that my friend said she had been feeling quite guilty when other premies laid trips on her about not going to programs and such because, at heart, she wasn't really into it anymore. Thus she was 'glad' to hear the truth about Maharaji so she wouldn't ahve to feel that way anymore.

But she had a dilemna. She had out-of-town premie company coming the next day and knew that they were still really into the trip and she was afraid of alienating them or any other premie friends.

I've got a call in to her to confirm and to see how she found the video.

Scout's honour.

So, again, who are you? If you want to meet then you shouldn't have a problem identifying yourself. If you like you can email me at the address above. Or call - (250) 360-1040.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 18:22:33 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim's trip
Message:
Excellent, James, excellent!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:12:55 (EDT)
From: PaulR
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim's BIG EGO trip
Message:
My comment to you was a gentle verbal pun, and deserved a more clever rebut from you than another of your your usual boorish rants. Why don't you work on it?

The exercise in Bad Language though, does help to remind me of the value of courtesy and cleverness in debate.

Re: So Called Protocols of Zion.

If you were to read FOR YOURSELF, the Information on the sites which you posted for ME to read, which I did, and they are, (I agree with you,) mostly rubbish, then you would see that two them (between them) concur with ALL of the information which I gave to you. They interpreted that information differently though, from what I have come to know to be a more true interpretation.

The third site was unavailable.

Even though I find your behaviour to be distateful, I had, as a courtesy, posted the information because I had concluded, correctly it seems, that you are interested in the subject matter, and would like to go beyond the tired old explanations for what it means. I had wished to help you in this.

When people say; 'it is a forgery,' they mean forgery in it's tired old assignation to a 'Jewish conspiracy.' They do not mean that It was never published. Obviously, it was published by someone. Presumably you can believe that the publisher had a purpose.

What makes people angry about the document, is that they do not know how to assign the authorship away from the libel of 'Jewish Origins.'

What I had said to you is that I know who actually published it, and I told you (in general terms) who it was. YOUR sources offer corroboration of my (informed) opinions on the matter. If you had been interested I could have told you more.

The strangest thing about your behaviour as I have observed it on this Forum, is that you honestly seem to consider yourself to be engaged in sincere, effective evaluation and debate of the issues. At least you say so.

You are not so. Even the times of your posts indicate that you usually pen your responses without allowing time for even the most intelligent of debators to provide a considered response; and certainly not nearly enough time for a hothead like you.

I am sure that you are not so stupid as you appear to be and not so smart as you think you are.

If you used your Brains (thinking, discernment, experience) as much as you use your mouth then you would be more knowledgeable than you are.

Your own behaviour ALWAYS works against your own best interests in these matters.

Also, having the last word doesn't make a person successful in debate. Learning something makes a person successful.

I'm going away so you may have the last word, without rebuttal. Therefore you may have the opportunity to show some humility in having it.

I wish you well.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:55:56 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PaulR
Subject: Incredulous -- me, incredulous
Message:
My comment to you was a gentle verbal pun, and deserved a more clever rebut from you than another of your your usual boorish rants. Why don't you work on it?

What was so clever about your 'gentle verbal pun' such that it warranted me putting on my thinking cap? Sorry, it went right over my head.

I don't get what you have to offer on the PofZ. You first said that:

I know for sure that That document was regarding a plan from a group of (pseudo)'Freemasons' to control various aspects of world culture and economics. (YES I HAVE ACTUALLY READ IT).
It seems funny to me that Jewish people are often so ticked of by being falsely associated with it.

Surely the Old Testament is much more of an indictment of Jewish behaviour than the statements in PoZ.


This is a little outside of ex-premie subject. You may reply via E-Mail to me if you like.


I added the emphasis. Are you mad?
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 09:59:45 (EDT)
From: JDL
Email: None
To: PaulR
Subject: Jim's BIG EGO trip
Message:
The Protocols of The Elders of Zion were in fact 'published'.

They were authored by the czarist equivalent of our CIA/NSA.

State sponsored anti-semetism was common in czarist russia and
the protocols were just one of many tools used in order to foment
hatred against Jews.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Pity.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:31:07 (EDT)
From: Malibu Mole
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim's trip/A Donner Tale
Message:
Mike Donner lived high on the hog for many years, and made few friends among premies. If there is a new age with him in it, please cancel my subscription. Here's my personal favorite Mike Donner story: Maharaji, Mishler, Lou Schwartz, and Donner were having an executive meeting at the old Kitterage Building(DLM
Headquarters) in the middle 1970's.We were outside in the secretarial pool.Maharaji lit up a joint during the meeting(this was his hashish/marajuana stage). Mike accused M of 'bogarting' the joint.M generously (you guys wanted stories where M was nice to premies) whipped out a second joint for the other lads to puff on.Mike got up and complained 'how are you ever going to become relatable if you keep acting like you deserve your own joint!'
I think the two deserved each other.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 23:16:46 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Malibu Mole
Subject: guru learns to share...
Message:
That is a great little tidbit....have you got more little stories like that?
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 01:53:52 (EDT)
From: Cat
Email: None
To: Malibu Mole
Subject: Jim's trip/A Donner Tale
Message:
We used to refer to Donner as 'the pig.' He had the habit of being a henchman for Maharaj Ji and would do things like search your desk when you were away from it. It was like he was always trying to do intelligence-gathering among the premies to seek out those who were not completely loyal to the lord. I never trusted him.

He also convinced Jeannie Messer to abandon her husband and kid to devote her life in the ashram. It was not a good thing to do.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:59:43 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cat
Subject: Jim's trip/A Donner Tale
Message:
One thing Mike was quite proud to tell me -- he never pumped up the Maharaji-as-God trip. All of his satsang was about the experience within. Sorry, 'within inside'.
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 20:13:57 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thank God Donner was a draft-
Message:
dodger. How come he's still living in Canada (just joking)? On the serious side, since Donner obviously saw through MJ a long time ago, how come he doesn't keep in touch? They could blow a few joints together.
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 20:54:42 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Thank God Donner was a draft-
Message:
On the serious side, since Donner obviously saw through MJ a long time ago, how come he doesn't keep in touch?

Because, as he explained, he just doesn't like him. He told me when he realized this. Maharaji had a party, Mike went, tried to give Maharaji a hug and Maharaji rebuffed him. Something like that.

By the way, I asked Mike about Mishler. He liked him, thought he was a really decent human being.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:10:31 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: shadowpixs@aol.com
To: Jim
Subject: off thread re Donner
Message:
Hi Jim, sorry to be off thread. You mentioned Donner. Mike Donner? How many donners can there be? Mike and I worked together, lived in the same ashram,and kind of 'went together' for a short while. I would very much like to speak with him. Anyway you can arrange this? I would really really like to speak with someone I knew from those days who is now an ex. Thank you.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 09:39:10 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Laura
Subject: off thread re Donner
Message:
Mike and I worked together, lived in the same ashram,and kind of 'went together' for a short while. I would very much like to speak with him. Anyway you can arrange this? I would really really like to speak with someone I knew from those days who is now an ex.

Laura,

Maybe you should email me on this one.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:54:07 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, Jim
Message:
I wouldn't worry too much over whether or not you convinced that woman that Emile is referring to. You told her the truth. It sure as hell isn't your responsibility what she does with it. She may still love Maharaji, but maybe if she respects you, (as Emile has said) you may have left a little crack in the veneer.

Anyway, I really respect the fact that you are telling the truth to people that you have known in the past. Whether or not they change their minds. It seems to me that you are being really responsible to them as friends/acquaintances by sharing what you know.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 13:54:16 (EDT)
From: Emile
Email: None
To: all the ex's
Subject: love&joy
Message:
Sorry if I don/t satisfy all your questions. I understand now why Maharaji doesn't want us to try and communicate with you-all. You just don't seem to understand. You are all so caught up in your hate and blame and providing others who are looking for someone to blame for their failures a focus. If you don't realise that the Joy and Love that a student of Maharaji's feels is valid and real than you just don't get it. What I mean by lies is that phony interview. Distortions, like saying that people don't come out to see Maharaji anymore. Or that Maharaji cancelled Seattle because He's scared of you guys, that's laughable. I feel sorry for you-all and I hope that someday you realize the folly of what you are trying to do. I won't be coming back here anymore. Jim, maybe we can go out for coffee sometime. Love to you-all, Emile.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 14:18:59 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: love&joy
Message:
I don't need anyone to tell me who to try to communicate with and who not to try with. I let myself learn as I go and mommy or daddy don't tell me who to play with, neither does Mr. Rawat. Andif he did tell me it wouldn't mean shit to me.
And I feel good about this independence that I learn to be more and more comfortable with, each passing day since I watched people grovel in group hysteria for the last time Dec. 1997
You can't answer my question about the 'only thing constant is my relationship with M' because it's too hard to answer. How to explain relationship that doesn't involve any contact with the person except through binoculars in a civic center? Or, maybe you were a lucky one like Homer Simpson and got mud spashed on you from M's Rolls as he drove by you raking the field in Amaroo?
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 14:22:58 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: I missed that lie
Message:
Emile,
Who said M cancelled Seattle because he was afraid of the exs?? I missed that one entirely! Maybe it was a joke that you took as serious. I do that a lot myself.

Maharaji doesn't want you to read here because you might actually learn something worthwhile for you and bad for him.
Best of luck to you, Emile.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 14:25:38 (EDT)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: I missed that lie
Message:
Hi VP
My email to you is bouncing.
Must be because I lost my intimate relatonship with you? Geez VP it's only been a week!
How quickly they forget.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 20:46:24 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: I missed that lie
Message:
If you got my email, my phone lines have been down for a while today.Please resend it when you have a chance. My emails have been on the edge of sanity today, eh? It must be that full moon...
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:23:33 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Emile
Subject: love&joy
Message:
Emile: I AM NOT, by anyone's reckoning, a failure. So your comment concerning finding someone to blame for being a 'failure' doesn't wash with me. I didn't start to succeed at life until I threw off the yoke of oppression that M had placed on me. DO this, DON'T do that. I am (and was then) considerably older than 21. I don't need a 'meditation teacher' telling me how to run every aspect of my life. He is just a teacher of meditation isn't he? OR are we back to the LOTU thing. If so, then it's the premies that are 'lying' about who they think he is! Don't plant that one on me! Additionally, I'm not caught up in 'hate' for anyone. I spent enough time fighting for my country to know what hate is... Hate hasn't been displayed here by anyone. The interview with Bob Mischler is REAL, my friend. If you are talking about the interview with M, it is stated clearly that it isn't a real interview, but what would likely be said. In the early days, I heard M talking (with my own ears) words just like these when he was interviewed on television. That interview could just have easily been any one of several. But no, it is CLEARLY indicated that the interview is made up. But, of course, if you don't READ THE WHOLE THING, you won't see it. Seattle... Seattle... I don't remember anyone talking about Seattle. Be more explicit, please.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:26:42 (EDT)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Mike and VP
Subject: love&joy
Message:
I do remember the Seattle thread. Wasn't Jim writing to that Linda the premie lawyer a tthe time and didn't he ask her why they were cancelling events/prgrams/festivals (did I miss a name)?
Someone made a joke I think about it being because some of us were planning to attend, or joking attending.
No big deal but an easy hook for Emile to try to prove some point. Just the usual premie-speak premie-logic.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:57:02 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: love&joy
Message:
Ahhhh...Got it! I don't think I saw that thread. Kinda new here, ya know. I sure do make alot of noise for a new guy... hmmm. You are right, though. Knowing how these guys joke around, it's just another hook for the 'see...see' crowd. I know that last post from Emile really got me going. Who is he, or M, to call me a failure at anything? What a bunch of losers. They are more pathetic than I thought. I guess K-lite has attracted some of the 'not my responsibility' crowd. You know... the folks that think it's always someone else's problem. They try to make themselves look better by denegrating others. That's a pretty dangerous thing to do when you have no idea who you are talking with. I think my post-premie life has been wonderful. I'm free, I'm retired (working a second career), I've got a lovely wife and a loving child. I couldn't ask for more (nor would I). Yup, LIFE has been very good to me. Failure? I DON'T THINK SO!! heh heh heh.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 17:53:48 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Emile
Subject: love&joy
Message:
Hi Emile,

Wise move. Conficius he say: When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging...

Toodle-pip
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 00:50:42 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The Ex-Files
Message:
I don't hate all the premies and M apologists and on the fence types who post here. I do think that they alienate us from what we are actually trying to do- in effect share the company of truth in all its secular glory. This is not about whether we believe in God or not. This is about as ex-members of a certain group we have support activities that we want to take part in with each other. Ultimately, this is about how the good in our cult experience stemmed from our own idealism and belief in the ability to change the world for the better, not from M.
The fact that we were and/or consider ourselves to have been victimised in our pursuit of truth and a better world leads us to be EX-premies. When people heckle the forum, we are distracted by it. Most of the postings on here are, in fact, postings about someone heckling the forum. Those people are either premies or people who are sympathetic to M. I'm really not sympathetic to M and because of this I do not feel able to (emotionally) afford sympathy for his sympathizers.
Here's what I do like on the forum in roughly the order I like it:
1. Sharing the truth about our journey from cultism.
2. Hearing news about people I love that I haven't seen in years.
3. Socializing and making new friends with expremies online.
4. Getting into intellectual tangents.
I wish some people were restricted but it is not up to me and should not be. I also think that some premies could argue more intelligently but they prefer to lurk. It does make being an expremie look bad, but I suppose we are not in the guru (con) business.
I tried to email Mel Bourne.. for example. Because I thought he was wasting everyone's time. I figured one-to-one would be more effective in communicating and perhaps free the forum to do (what I see as) its business. There was no true address in the link. This is not about Mel, maybe the one link was out that day...
It's about most of the hecklers do not have a return address.

Maybe people who post should be recquired to include an email address... at least under normal conditions...
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 07:16:07 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: The Ex-Files
Message:
On the other hand, premies, and half-premies like Keith, eventually get around to revealing their cult programming. This gives us a chance to point out how the cult works in controlling its members.

Sure, supporting each other is great, and finding old friends and making new ones is also, but in terms of showing what's wrong with maharaji and the cult, nothing works as well as a live demonstration.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 09:00:50 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Runamok
Subject: The Ex-Files
Message:
Dear Run,
I was thinking a similar thought, that we waste a lot of time talking about fighting, who is for and against Jim etc. The thing is that this is a free speech zone just because it is, in contrast to BM's secretive stance. Also all the monitoring would take a lot of time and Brian with Katie's help does more than he really has time for now as this postion is non-paid. Also about email addresses. I am sure someone who doesn't want their email address shown will respond but the email address is not required so anyone can be free to post here without fear of someone recognizing them and causing major problems in their lives.
Have you connected with anyone you use to know? I haven't but wish I would, of course.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:49:51 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Robyn
Subject: The Ex-Files
Message:
Just a thought. Seems like hecklers ought to include email...
Also seems like arguing is ok but our real argument is with M not a bunch of lackies. It's like strategising over pawns in a chess game. It's not a winning way to play.

I hear about people I haven't seen. I have only been posting a few weeks. I had been on the site about a year ago but it just didn't seem as happenning.

I am still meditating but am turned off to sharing about it on MMT. Anyway that's me. I am really grateful for the site and to be a part of a group of 'survivors' (isn't it?) INSTEAD OF ALONE.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:01:29 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com
To: Runamok
Subject: The Ex-Files
Message:
I didn't realize that you were fairly new. I've only been here since late April. Thanks for your response to my question about Chomsky, the linguist!
Carol
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 01:25:18 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Carol
Subject: The Ex-Files
Message:
Carol,
I basically left M around '81. The thing with Chomsky is a fluke because I happen to think of him as the first cult I ever ran into. It's a bizarre and very personal understanding.. and it's strange that Jim happens to feel similarly. Anyway, no problem!
Runamok
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 06:07:22 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: Runamok
Subject: The Ex-Files
Message:
Hi Runamok

I'm really not keen to be seen as a 'heckler' of the Forum, that makes it seem as though I disagree with everything that is posted here - and I don't. I would see myself in the same way as most others who post here would see themselves - as a 'contributor'. Of course we may not particularly agree with each other's contributions, but different perspectives and fair debate on these views should be encouraged.

I am sorry you could not contact me via email and have posted my address above if you wish to contact. It's relatively easy to set up an email address and still retain anonymity, .

I invite emails from anyone who feels so inclined but, please - no abusiveness and obscenities......(I'm very sensitive!)

Mel
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 07:39:18 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: The Ex-Files
Message:
That's good Mel, altho most of the stuff I wanted to say played itself out and I deleted the letter I had written to you from my hard drive. The point is that some threads seem unnecessary to the group at large. I just think it's helpful and fair in posting pro-M or apologetic (for M) entries to leave email. An email address shows the good faith of premies and potential 'debaters' and helps eliminate the possiblity of posting under extra pseudonyms.

I also urge you to post on the premie forum. M's own philosophy is to vacillate in his recommendations as with his varied stands on his own divinity. I can't believe there would be an advantage to a premie posting on the ex-premie forum over posting on the premie forum. That would only be an advantage in trashing this place- which would show an overall lack of decency- which is what M is already under suspicion of here.
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