Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 21 | |
From: Aug 4, 1998 |
To: Aug 18, 1998 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
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Date: Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 08:19:10 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Jim Subject: Dinner @ 8 here I am Jim Message: Jim, info is as follows: What the sources you cited omitted was that the Meccans (the Quraysh) were involved in oppressing and maintaining their position (like most leading groups in the world) at all costs. Mohammed's life was in danger in Mecca. He was invited to Medina by a group of people who are now called the 'Ansar' - the Helpers. There, some people converted to Islam, but Mohammed actually drew up what is now called a 'Constitution' where everyone could live in peace and practice their own religion as they wished. (There is even a verse in the Qur'an which says,to paraphrase, 'Say: you have your religion, and I have mine'). the Qurayza were one of those groups who signed up to the alliance and who agreed that Mohammed had the qualities of being able to mediate between the warring factions in Medina. When the Quraysh pursued Mohammed to Medina (therefore not allowing him to practice his own, developing religion), the Qurayza broke the treaty, to the detriment of all groups in Medina. As I may have mentioned before, once the Quraysh had gone away, after being unable to penetrate the walls of Medina, something had to be done now that the alliance was broken. The Qurayza appointed Sa'ad ibn Mu'ath, a member of the Aws clan who were patrons of the Qurayza, to mediate for them. it was then that Sa'ad made his proclamation. Had the Muslims remained in Medina and let the Qurayza go, they would all have been massacred. Muslims had already been massacred by the Meccans. This still does not justify selling women and children into slavery, but I am meeting a friend who is doing a PhD on the Qur'an this weekend (hopefull), who has more info for me. Another source to be found on the net is: Muhammad: Montgomery Watt. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 11:15:50 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Becky Subject: Dinner @ 8 here I am Jim Message: I only have a moment to ask you where you got this. I mean we know that any Islamic source is going to do whatever it can to avoid characterizing Mohammed as a murderer, right? So where's this from? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 12:42:46 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Jim Subject: Dinner @ 8 here I am Jim Message: Montgomary Watt, my dear chap. See you on Monday. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 22:16:58 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Becky Subject: You mean this guy? Message: I am not a Muslim in the usual sense, though I hope I am a 'Muslim' as 'one surrendered to God', I but believe that embedded in the Quran and other esxpressions of the Islamic vision are vast stores of divine truth from which I and other occidentals have still much to learn; and 'Islam is certainly a strong contender for the supplying of the basic framework of the one religion of the future.' W. Montgomery Watt in 'Muhammad at Mecca,' Oxford, 1953. His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as a leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems that it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.... Thus, not merely must we credit Muhammad with essential honesty and integrity of purpose, if we are to understand him at all; if we are to correct the errors we have inherited from the past, we must not forget the conclusive proof is a much stricter requirement than a show of plausibility, and in a matter such as this only to be attained with difficulty. W. Montgomery Watt, Islam and Christianity Today London 1983, p. IX Okay, so you've found Islam's number one apologist,the guy who made a career writing about the beauty of Islam. If 'not a Muslim in the usual sense' he sure is a Mohammedophile. What do you make of the last sentence about 'conclusive proof' and 'plausibility'? It sounds like he's saying one should lower the standard of historical review for his hero. What does he mean by 'matter such as this'? That's another good one. No, I think Mr. Watt loses much credibility by arguing that Mohammed's character is proven by the fact that he believed in himself, his followers were of 'great character' and he started a major world religion. There's so little logic in such thinking. Really! Contrary to Watt's fearful caution, supposing Mohammed an imposter only 'raises more problems than it solves' for someone like him who has obviously chosen his hero and won't see otherwise. Besides, who said anything about 'imposter'? Maybe Mohammed was self-deluded like Jesus? You never know. No, I'm afraid Watt's a suspect hagriophapher and I can't trust his scholarship independent of more dispassionate confirmation. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Aug 15, 1998 at 00:06:56 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: You mean this guy? Message: I meant 'hagriographer'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Aug 15, 1998 at 15:21:22 (EDT)
From: PaulR Email: pgrobinson@hotmail.com To: Becky Subject: You mean this guy? Message: Dear Becky, Surely the endless haggling over whom, out of the major monotheistic religions, have created the most mayhem, is irrelevant to the task of living which is in front of us. I must say that though (Becky) that I have appreciated your staying away from a countering diatribe on the offenses committed by Jewish and Christain leaders, which are (very, very) many. There is sufficient blame available all around to use up the entire availability of global bandwidth, without answering any of the questions posed there. The real questions are; who is it who is perpetrating injustices now (at THIS time?) What power, authority or responsibility does each individual have to amelliorate, reduce or eliminate those injustices? What is each individual actually doing to promote such just ends? To Becky, If, as it appears to me from your statements here, Islam is a force in your life which promotes Love and Justice and Peace, then Islam is a success in your life. Well done (Please excuse the patronization.) The additional question which I would like to ask is; As you are a self confessed Muslim then; What is it that you are doing to try to turn the entire islamic religion in the directions of Justice, Peace and Love? You might ask the same question of me regarding any profession of religious faith. If you have a somewhat positive answer to that question, then I believe that your life (together with much other of Islam also,) is a part of the Global Spiritual Solution rather than of the Global Spiritual Problem. If that is so; then be satisfied. And require answers to the same questions of others. IMO Be satisfied and keep looking. PS On the other hand maybe I'm wrong and there is something to be gained for the universe in the endless debates over who is more wrong than whom. Also, maybe, you are receiving some spiritual sustenance from the debate. But I think not, and have come to that conclusion completely and almost finally. To Jim: |
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Date: Sat, Aug 15, 1998 at 16:25:00 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: PaulR Subject: You mean this guy? Message: After, weeks of nitpicking, namecalling and villifications of the various leaders of Islamic Faith whom you have (only approximately) researched; you then conclude your argument by referring to such swine, who have deserved much of the villifications which you had put against them, as 'Holy,' while agrandising your own comments at the same time, by misusing the word hagiography, which you misspelled twice, including in your own correction. This is unintelligible. Beside that, you missed the entire point of our discussion. The ENTIRE point. Like, ou don't seem to have the faintest clue what we were talking about. Funny. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Aug 15, 1998 at 18:59:41 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: PaulR Subject: A fuller reply, PaulR Message: Dear Becky, Surely the endless haggling over whom, out of the major monotheistic religions, have created the most mayhem, is irrelevant to the task of living which is in front of us. PaulR, I've got another moment now and thought I'd answer you more completely. First, as I said in the post above, you seem to completely miss what Becky and I were talking about. It's not a matter of which religion's created the most mayhem. That'se not the issue at all. Our issue was whether Mohammed was a prophet of God. That's it. Perhaps if you re-read the threads of 'endless haggling' you'd get that. Maybe you just had the tv on a little loud or something. I must say that though (Becky) that I have appreciated your staying away from a countering diatribe on the offenses committed by Jewish and Christain leaders, which are (very, very) many. Again, you're completely off the point here. But then maybe that's where you want to go. Why don't you start your own thread? You can tell us about the relative horrors perpetrated in the name of Judaism vs Islam. I'd love to hear your views. You are, after all, the same PaulR who posted the blather about jews not having any reason to worry about the fraudulent 'Protocols of Zion', aren't you? (Hey, didn't you even say that they weren't fraudulent at all, being that they wre published? My, my, what an outrageous misunderstanding of the english language!) Anyway, if you'd like to get into it, for the record, I'm a born jew who thinks judaism is bunk just like all religions. At the same time I think it's patently absurd to say question whether more mayhem's been perpetrated in the name of islam than judaism, especially, and even christianity. But go ahead, make your argument if you will. I love watching your mind in action. There is sufficient blame available all around to use up the entire availability of global bandwidth, without answering any of the questions posed there. What a tepid, cliche. Why bother? The real questions are; who is it who is perpetrating injustices now (at THIS time?) What power, authority or responsibility does each individual have to amelliorate, reduce or eliminate those injustices? What is each individual actually doing to promote such just ends? Oh those are the REAL questions, are they? Thanks. And all along I thought the REAL question was whether there was any reason to believe Mohammed was anything but a man. Again, who the hell are you to say what the REAL question is? Different topic altogether. Can't you see that? To Becky, If, as it appears to me from your statements here, Islam is a force in your life which promotes Love and Justice and Peace, then Islam is a success in your life. Well done (Please excuse the patronization.) How vapid yet self-important! Take a look at yourself, friend. You've really got nothing to say but the most smug way of saying it. Becky's tons sharper than you are (even if she's a sucker for middle eastern cults). She certainly doesn't need your superior pat of approval. And what of 'truth', eh? Sorry, 'Truth'. What about that? Or don't you think it matters? The additional question which I would like to ask is; As you are a self confessed Muslim then; What is it that you are doing to try to turn the entire islamic religion in the directions of Justice, Peace and Love? You might ask the same question of me regarding any profession of religious faith. BORING!!! If you have a somewhat positive answer to that question, then I believe that your life (together with much other of Islam also,) is a part of the Global Spiritual Solution rather than of the Global Spiritual Problem. If that is so; then be satisfied. And require answers to the same questions of others. IMO Be satisfied and keep looking. EXTREMELY BORING!!! Now you sound like an imitation Krishnamurti. PS On the other hand maybe I'm wrong and there is something to be gained for the universe in the endless debates over who is more wrong than whom. It's called trying to figure shit out, idiot. Also, maybe, you are receiving some spiritual sustenance from the debate. Is that what it's all about? But I think not, and have come to that conclusion completely and almost finally. Wow. You figured that out without even knowing what we were talking about. That's incredible. To Jim: After, weeks of nitpicking, namecalling and villifications of the various leaders of Islamic Faith whom you have (only approximately) researched; you then conclude your argument by referring to such swine, who have deserved much of the villifications which you had put against them, as 'Holy,' while agrandising your own comments at the same time, by misusing the word hagiography, which you misspelled twice, including in your own correction. from the greek hagios = holy. Well, I AM embarrassed. Hey, it's aword I've used a handful of times and somehow, just then, it slipped my mind. I grappled for it and you're right, I didn't get it right. But you, idiot, are the bigger fool. First, you write such pompous goop I swear you've stuck yourself in the thicket at last. Second, you yourself don't seem to know the meaning of the word. Who cares if it originally derived from the Greek for 'Holy'. Who cares if it CAN mean a description of the life of a saint. Anyone familiar with the word's common connotation would know what I meant -- a fawning, unbiased tribute framed as a biography. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Aug 17, 1998 at 08:28:07 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Jim Subject: Montgomery Watt Message: Dear Jim, I'm glad you think I'm fairly sharp. Incidentally, I am not attracted to Islam simply because it is 'eastern' or 'middle eastern', and I'm not one of those people (I hope) who romanticises other cultures, since it appears to me that human beings are pretty much the same the world over. In a nutshell, pracitising Islam makes me feel good. With regard to M. Watt, like you Jim, I did think from that extract on the net that he was a little soft in the head. However, my friend gave me a book by M.Watt called 'Muhammad at Medina', which is a lot more concise and cool than the blurb above. It is also INCREDIBLY detailed, and you realise when reading it just how complex the situation was at Medina. I still haven't finished the section about the Qurayza etc. etc., but what I can say is that so far what has been said has certainly been taken out of context. I also have another two extracts at home by other Western writers, and what you can see from these extracts is how minor but crucial details are still being debated even today, because of different accounts that have been given over the last 1300 years. since I was not at home yesterday I haven't been able to bring them in, but I will tomorrow. Also there is another biography of Mohammed by a woman called Karen Armstrong, which I was given yesterday. PaulR - you may say that trying to find some truth about what has happened in the past is irrelevant to today, and we should think about the present and the future, but I believe that where we are today is precisely because of the past. How can you understand, for example, a political situation in a country, the internal struggles, if you do not understand that country's past? How could you really understand me if you knew nothing of my past? The past is with us now, today. The past is affecting us today, and this is why it is necessary to try to discover what truth we can. I'm not haggling with Jim; I'm engaged in a debate in which I am learning something. I enjoy the brain exercises. Back tomorrow with some info. Bye. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 19:15:56 (EDT)
From: Batmite Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Just stumbled in Message: I was searching for something completely unrelated, and goto.com listed 'ex-premie.org' - a blast from the blue -- errr -- or something. Ya got a nice site. I read a couple of journeys and was touched. I was initiated in Allston in 1973 by Mahatma Gurucharnanand. Is he the same one referred to now as Charnanand? They hadn't started calling Gurucharnand 'Charlie' when I received Knowledge. My Knowledge Session was a very revelatory experience. I was a very suggestible 26 years old. I don't know if discussion of the physical transmission of the techniques (esp. Divine Light) is considered tasteful here, but suffice it to say that Mahatmaji sensed my desire and gained my submission. Unlike many, I always heard in Maharaj ji's answers to questions a clear offer to be the focus of total devotion for those who desired it, but to simply be the benefactor and giver of peace (or the ability to find peace) to the majority of those who came. I haven't had any contact with premies for about 20 years, except for some shady textbook buyers who happened to stop at my office about ten years ago (I'm a Professor). I know that the people who speak about being wounded by Maharaj ji are not making it up, but it wasn't my experience. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 20:14:38 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Batmite Subject: Just stumbled in Message: Dear Batmite, I love to see this type of new comer. Welcome. I also received K in 1973 but unlike most here I have no clue what mahatma did the deed. I kind of like it that way, no need for gushy devotion! I also know that the people wounded my M are not making it up and also that that wasn't my experience, thank god. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 20:23:30 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Batmite Subject: Just stumbled in Message: Welcome to the Forum, Batmite. You said: Unlike many, I always heard in Maharaj ji's answers to questions a clear offer to be the focus of total devotion for those who desired it, but to simply be the benefactor and giver of peace (or the ability to find peace) to the majority of those who came. Now that you're all grown up and no longer in a cult, you may want to check back on some of maharaji's satsangs from the late seventies. He made it very clear that not only was he God, but that you would 'rot inside' if you stopped practicing knowledge. You also said I know that the people who speak about being wounded by Maharaj ji are not making it up, but it wasn't my experience. I don't know when you stopped following maharaji but it's likely that you weren't wounded because you didn't completely follow his instructions (to devote yourself completely to him, give him your 'all', immerse yourself in the cult, cut off significant contact with family, put your problems in your back pocket, etc). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 20:29:56 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Rick Subject: off topic Message: Dear Rick, Hi, I'm writing you an email right now! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 20:31:46 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Robyn Subject: You better-nt Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 21:07:36 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Batmite Subject: Just stumbled in Message: Unlike many, I always heard in Maharaj ji's answers to questions a clear offer to be the focus of total devotion for those who desired it, but to simply be the benefactor and giver of peace (or the ability to find peace) to the majority of those who came. That's nonsense. Sorry. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 22:01:15 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Batmite Subject: Just stumbled in Message: Unlike many, I always heard in Maharaj ji's answers to questions a clear offer to be the focus of total devotion for those who desired it, but to simply be the benefactor and giver of peace (or the ability to find peace) to the majority of those who came. That's what I heard too, initially. But the closer I got, and anybody got (you included), to receiving K, the more I heard about the Lord Of The Universe and how you must dedicate your life to him in order to receive and benefit from K. Just think of the dedication ceremony prior to receiving Knowledge. 'Oh my Guru Maharaji, I dedicate my life to you...'. You not only heard that, you said it. Think back, Batmite. There was some heavy shit going on back then, real heavy. Still is. Really fucked up my head too. I don't know if I'll ever get over it. I'm just coming to terms with it recently. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 00:38:33 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: lotuspower@aol.com To: All Subject: Just ran in Message: I think the people who got the most out of it did come and go quickly and managed to receive K and check it out without getting obligated to do the surrender deal. They just came and went at the right time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 03:07:12 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Batmite Subject: Just stumbled in Message: I haven't had any contact with premies for about 20 years, except for some shady textbook buyers who happened to stop at my office about ten years ago (I'm a Professor). I know that the people who speak about being wounded by Maharaj ji are not making it up, but it wasn't my experience. Those 'textbook buyers' were premies making money for their Lord! They make tens of millions a year reselling those books! and all that money has been 'donated' to m for decades! See textmart/amtext Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 11:20:07 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Just stumbled in Message: That's how Donner made his money, enough to retire. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 11:32:06 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jim Subject: Books' money! Message: And he left with the cash? The BM must have been mad at him? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 11:36:33 (EDT)
From: Vegemite Email: None To: Batmite Subject: Just stumbled in Message: Batmite: Premies as 'shady text book buyers,' that's a rip! That was actually one of the big student issues at Berkeley when Slate was founded (I mean, the monopoly on used text books). I also did not experience being 'wounded' by M, but in retrospect he's a pretty shady purveyor of Knowledge. Just because I managed to not get hurt doesn't mean that it was not a potential consequence of an almost airtight scam. I stress 'almost' airtight. I few leaks have appeared. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 11:10:33 (EDT)
From: If you don't understand Email: None To: Everyone Subject: anything anything/India Message: then go check 'M's Knowledge is an Indian myth' everything will become crystal clear! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 14:28:36 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: If you don't understand Subject: Excellent -- Thank You Message: Very well done. Congratulations. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 20:08:04 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Everyone Subject: Cure for your acne, Maharaji Message: Acne is caused by an imbalance in the hormones produced by the pituitary gland. There is a tried and tested herbal remedy which can correct that hormonal imbalance. The herb to take is called Agnus Castus. It can be purchased in tablets from any good herbalist. A dose of 600 milligrams taken three times per day is recommended but medical advice from a good herbalist should be sought before deciding on the daily dosage. I personally have a friend who had very bad acne. Taking Agnus Castus completely eliminated her acne within a few weeks. In Germany, tests have been done on males and females of all ages and the herb has been found to work on all groups. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 21:48:42 (EDT)
From: Big M Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Cure for your acne, Maharaji Message: Thank you. It’s nice to know that you ex-premies can still be of use to me. I will instruct my inner-circle to raise the necessary funds in order to purchase some land (10,000 acres should be sufficient) on which to grow this herb Agnus Castus. I will also ask them to set up a shelf company with which they can commercialise any leftover harvest after I have extracted what I need for my own personal consumption. Jai satchitanand. PS. Should I still keep playing tennis, as well? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 23:05:37 (EDT)
From: Durga Ji Email: None To: Big M Subject: Cure for your acne, Maharaji Message: Oh what do you care? They air-brush the zits off your face in all the pictures they sell anyway, and if you'd quit eating all that meat and those chocolates your zit-problem would disappear. But do you listen to me? No! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 22:03:07 (EDT)
From: Big M Email: None To: Durga Ji Subject: Cure for your acne, Maharaji Message: But do you listen to me? No! Why is it, my little tiger riding Goddess, that you always insist upon making a scene in public? I will never forget that time in that Malibu restaurant when we had that row and you walked out and humiliated me in front of the 'little people'... Honestly, you Western women with your lack of subservience - I will never understand you! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Aug 16, 1998 at 12:52:11 (EDT)
From: Bill Email: None To: Sir David Subject: A touch of Hemlock works also Message: p'asrjtpaojmva.skdgfoif wmwvp.;mkpol. p;p,i.,-[;i, Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 13:44:27 (EDT)
From: RT Email: humma humma To: Everyone Subject: Download CULT-A game. Message: For those with or who are kids at heart, have an extra 20 mb of space and time to press up and down arrow keys, this is pretty funny maze game. Look down on a little cop and make him move to a cult member. Dialog is premie-like: : 'Hi, I am a cop. What is your name?' 'Shhh-not now' 'Why not? 'shhh...I am feeling something!' ...here is a review. Enjoy...RT PS: Hi everybody, I am here, but busy moving. I am planning to go to a video soon as undercover agent for Ex-Premie.org. Some Instructor is touring - another VISA run. Cult 07-24-98 [www.pccomputing.com look for top ten downloads, then games. Also lots of cool Win95 utilities!] dev. by Lee Blum Cult is an interesting freeware adventure game that challenges your deductive reasoning, memory, and negotiation skills. Cast in the role of police officer Zack Bon, your assignment is to infiltrate a local temple and rescue hostages held captive by heavily armed cult members. The fast and well-rendered look-down environment conjures a Zelda meets Police Academy mood. Documentation is sparse, but gameplay is straightforward. Explore the temple maze, avoid toxic chemicals, talk to cult members, gather clues, and flip switches to open new territory. Mundane interface and static inventory maintenance aside, you simply must try Cult. It contributes a fresh, modern, and thoughtful plot, solved through non-violent interaction, to the starving adventure game genre. It's ideal for all ages, and the price is right. Reviewed on Apr 21 1998. System Requirements Windows 95 Purchase Information Free Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 11:08:14 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji's fundraiser Message: Had a funny dream last night. Maharaji was on to this new fundraising technique, allowing people to throw cream pies at his face but for incredibly large sums of cash. For some reason --different reasons, each, I'm sure -- both premies and exe were lingin up to pay and play. (The exes, though, were all writing cheques.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 12:39:59 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Jim Subject: Becky's hermaphrodite Message: I dreamt that one of my good friends Eva came to make to love to me. She had become a hermaphrodite. Although I enjoyed sleeping with her, I thought afterwards that I certainly wouldn't want to have a penis as well. Any clues of analysis? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 13:01:47 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Becky Subject: Becky's hermaphrodite Message: When the meaning of this dream seems pretty obvious for you very likely, why do you post it on this open forum? Are you also an exhibitionist? Or your dreams are more fancy than jim's?:))) Definitely something related to Jim .... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 13:18:58 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Dreamt of M, too Message: I dreamt that he was helping me select plumbing fixtures...he kept pointing to the swans. I am NOT joking either. I was saying, 'Those are gaudy.' but he kept pointing to them. I think TD's post about materialism got to me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 20:50:49 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: VP Subject: Dreamt of M, too too Message: Me too VP! I had a dream about two nights ago, a very lucid one... I dreamt I was at Amaroo at an event and we were all wearing white Indian garb (surprise, surprise!) and the Big M drove up in a red Ferrari on to the grass (I kid you not!). I was sitting up the front with a friend of mine from Brisbane (who's not a premie) and I was taking notes on a notepad like a spy. I felt absolutely paranoid that they'd realise I wasn't a premie anymore, but then turned around and realised that everyone else was also taking notes.... It then flicked to the Big M on a really high stage, almost tower-like with a hydraulic lift raising and lowering his chair....and that's all I can remember. Needless to say, I woke up in a cold sweat, had to pop 20 prozac and swig a hipflask of Scotch just to get over the nightmare and get out of bed....!! Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 09:23:18 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: TD Subject: Dreamt of M, too too Message: I've only had one dream of M that I can recall. This was back in the 70s before I received K. I dreamt he was a Mafia kingpin. No lie. And in this dream I dreamt he betrayed me. I asked a premie friend what he thought about it. He said that it was my own insecure feelings toward M that caused the dream. Made sense to me. I'm not big on interpreting dreams so I really don't know if it was an omen or not. There definitely was a lot of misgivings I had, intuitively, that I brushed aside in order to receive K. This dream was just one of them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 22:26:25 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Becky Subject: Becky's hermaphrodite Message: Becky, I am SO embarrassed! Oh my God!! I feel like Pee Wee Herman (I mean on TV, not in the 'movies'). Oh my God!!! I don't know how much you want me to get into this with you but I can safely say that having a 'penis', as you call it, ain't so bad. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 00:01:24 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: Becky Subject: Becky's hermaphrodite Message: Guess what! I had that same dream. I figured it was a message from my subconscious disproving Freud's Penis Envy theory. Then, when I got into Jung, I decided my anima was stalking my animus--spent years in therapy undoing that mess. The lawsuit was the final straw! Yours in jest (except that I really did have the same dream a few years ago). eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 07:07:59 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: eb Subject: Becky's hermaphrodite Message: thanks for the tip eb. Jim, why are you so embarrassed? I just thought my dream would be (i)entertaining (ii)adding to this dream thread. My dream, I can assure you jean-michel, has nothing whatsoever to do with Jim. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 07:11:46 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Becky Subject: unrelated subject matter Message: Also, jean-michel, there is plenty of stuff posted here which does not directly relate to Maharaji. I thought that was 'allowed'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 07:33:13 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Becky Subject: unrelated subject matter Message: It certainly is. Your dream was interesting and shows that you have a deep love for this person who appeared in it. Now that can't be bad. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 08:17:25 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Sir David Subject: unrelated subject matter Message: thank you Sir David. I related my dream certainly with no intention of being 'exhibitionist' or 'sexually perverted'. I simply related it because it was a curiosity to me, and I'm sure I'm not the only person in this world who has such dreams. I was beginning to think I'd made a mistake in relating my unconscious. I thought people might have a little more humour and be able to add something of value, whatever that might be. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 10:30:48 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Becky Subject: Becky's hermaphrodite Message: Becky, I'm not really embarrassed. Not at all. In fact, Laurie and I were thinking of inviting you up for the weekend. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 12:54:24 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Jim Subject: Becky's hermaphrodite Message: Glad. I must say I was astonished to think that someone like you could blush. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 08:11:59 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: Everyone Subject: what did I do wrong? Message: Can anyone explain to me why my post was deleted in the other forum?. The post consisted of the words 'It is indeed', which was a response to a message which said something like 'It must be liberating to leave m' PS what is the MMT forum? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 09:26:57 (EDT)
From: Peter Email: None To: jethro Subject: The Premie Forum Message: The Premie Forum is for premies who are into Maharaji. Since you were saying that it was liberating to leave Maharaji it wasn't considered very Maharaji friendly. This forum is more suited to that kind of comment. The idea of the premie forum is that premies can talk about Maharaji in peace, without the influence of ex-premies. A link to the premie forum is below. Go to the premie forum The Magical Mystery Tour forum (MMT) is for anyone who wants to post without taking the risk of being flamed or ridiculed. The link for that is below. Go to the MMT forum I hope this answers your questions. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 10:08:50 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: The Premie Forum Message: Hi everyone The premie forum seems a wierd place to visit, like an empty room or attic where you can hear some strange echoes whispering about computer games or something. Seems to be more action on this site's 'Letters to Maharaji' section. Maybe premies are just like most people in that they prefer to read the 'tabloid' news of their icons.... what's the latest with Clinton and Monika? will Prince Charles take lover Camilla to meet his Ma?...you know the kind of thing, so maybe they prefer reading the about 'spice ' and scandal of M's life and consider it a great thrill, .... or maybe they are simply watching what happens here with a stunned and shocked silence, .... or maybe they are not here at all and know nothing about the site that has been set up for them to play in. ....or maybe they are just plain NOT INTERESTED. Any other theories? Mel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 11:02:23 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: The Premie Forum Message: Maybe premies are just like most people in that they prefer to read the 'tabloid' news of their icons.... what's the latest with Clinton and Monika? will Prince Charles take lover Camilla to meet his Ma?...you know the kind of thing, so maybe they prefer reading the about 'spice ' and scandal of M's life and consider it a great thrill, Mel, I think there's much truth in this. Recall how KK explained that instructors were always stopping her for the latest quiet gossip about Maharaji. Was it true that he [x,y,z]? That hs to be a big fascination for all of us. .... or maybe they are simply watching what happens here with a stunned and shocked silence, I can see it. .... or maybe they are not here at all and know nothing about the site that has been set up for them to play in. That's largely true, too. ....or maybe they are just plain NOT INTERESTED. Of course, for some. Any other theories? Yes, two. One -- they know Maharaji doesn't want them to. Two -- they learned a long time ago that they can't afford to think freely about Maharaji and stay in the game. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 12:58:44 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: The Premie Forum Message: Maybe premies are just like most people in that they prefer to read the 'tabloid'news of their icons.... what's the latest with Clinton and Monika? will Prince Charles take lover Camilla to meet his Ma?...you know the kind of thing, so maybe they prefer reading the about 'spice ' and scandal of M's life andconsider it a great thrill, This is probably true. I always found premies to be some of the most gossipy people around, although this is pretty much true in most closed-societies like the premie kingdom. When I was involved, they certainly gossiped endlessly about premies, initiators and PAM, but usually were careful NOT to gossip about M to other premies, at least face-to-face, because that was cause for icy stares and fearful glances. But I think premies are very interested nonetheless. According to Brian, something like 6,000 messages are being read EVERY DAY on this forum, and yet only perhaps 30 people actually post on any given day. This means at a minimum, hundreds of lurkers, every day, and I think the majority of them are premies, at least to some degree. For example, premies tell me that the fact that Monica Lewis was M's mistress for years is pretty much common knowledge among premies, although it, of course, has never been officially confirmed. It has, nonetheless, been a rampant item of rumor in premie circles. The fact that Michael Donner and others have now confirmed it to be true, would certainly be of interest to premies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 21:03:33 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: The Premie Forum Message: ...or maybe they are just plain NOT INTERESTED. Any other theories? Yes, Melba, (talk about the bleedin' obvious...) They're all too busy lurking around here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 21:10:02 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: None To: Mel Subject: Sorry...! Message: You just said that. I was reading too quickly. Beg pardon. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 06:42:57 (EDT)
From: red heart Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: The Premie Forum...Not Message: It's a sham. It's a fishbowl set up by exes to get premies to post there so they can watch the premies like they would watch the monkeys in a zoo. It's too weird. Like you're trying to snare premies or something. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 07:27:25 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: red heart Subject: The Premie Forum...Not Message: I am truly amazed at the cynical attitude of 'some' surrent premies. Did you read my post below to Chris Dickey where I said that I wouldn't denigrate premies because they are, after all, seeking a closer relationship with their God. I really do not see the world in the same black and white, them and us terms that you appear to see. If you want to build walls between yourself and other people by pinning labels on them and being predudicial towards them, then so be it. But that's not how I relate to people. Perhaps this forum has built up the idea that so called ex-premies want to ridicule premies. Perhaps it has built up a persecution complex amongst some premies. If so, that is unfortunate. But there are many and varied viewpoints among the poster and you needn't tar everyone with the same brush. I am usually delighted when I get an email from a premie or an aspirant. The only time I'm not delighted is if they make disparaging remarks about me or try to put me in a box. That is why I didn't continue any email correspondence with you. I get the feeling that you are being very defensive. And that defensiveness comes across and in the form of attacking ex-premies. Why does it have to be this way? There is a 'oneness' that I perceive that goes beyond superficial differences. And whether one follows Maharaji or not IS a mere superficial difference. The people are still people and they can be valued and appreciated just the same. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 21:10:25 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: red heart Subject: The Premie Forum...Not Message: It's a sham. It's a fishbowl set up by exes to get premies to post there so they can watch the premies like they would watch the monkeys in a zoo. It's too weird. Like you're trying to snare premies or something. Are you saying that there's something inherently bizarre about what premies think or about what they'd say if allowed to speak? Maybe that's what Maharaji tought as well when he ordered you guys not to discuss him on the net. He just wanted to save you all some embarrassment. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 21:17:50 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: red heart Subject: The Premie Forum...Not Message: Nobody who the forum is set up by, if premies talk about their experience in public, people can comment on it and make up their own minds about what is said. If premies are really having the experience they claim, and if they aren't in a cult, wouldn't talking about it where people can see it a good thing? Why does it have to be so secretive and controlled? What do you have to hide? Why doen't M want premies to talk about their own experience and instead have them deliver canned introductions only? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 23:59:34 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: JW Subject: The need for secrecy Message: Exactly, JW. This is what I could NEVER understand about the whole thing...until I came here and talked to you guys. DUH! The thing's a CULT just like my parents told me. It was nice to hear it from the people who had been there. It gave it more credibility than hearing it from someone who was not a member. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 08:36:46 (EDT)
From: Sir Cumference Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: VP Subject: The need for secrecy Message: A cult yes, but I do like the people who get into it. Perhaps that's because there's a genuine sincerety there. And talking of the cult attitudes, I was amazed a couple of years ago when I heard that Maharaji was ridiculing the guy who invented beragons. I always thought the beragon was a damn good little invention. How the hell are people supposed to sit doing light or music for half an hour without one? Maharaji's contempt for the beragon is utterly bizarre. And now there's this thing called 'practise' and not 'meditation' which is now a banned word. I find all this utterly ridiculous. I am amazed how people can't see it's a cult. Perhaps it's a nice little cult for some but you couldn't take it to the world. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 16:03:28 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Sir Cumcision (heh heh!) Subject: I wouldn't hang around Message: 'A cult yes, but I do like the people who get into it. Perhaps that's because there's a genuine sincerety there.' I agree. Otherwise I wouldn't hang around. Premies may be a brick short of a load in figuring out what is what with maharaji, but weren't we all? And about baragons...I would love to get ahold of one of those things. Can you imagine? That would be almost as good as a Maharaji coffee mug for shocking the in-laws;) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 19:45:52 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: Baragons and Red Green Message: VP: SRF (the Yogananda folks) used to manufacture a neato baragon that folded up like a gallery chair. Very handy. Wonder if you could get Red Green to make one on the show? He'd probably have some insight into the artful use of duct tape. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 14:55:15 (EDT)
From: Sir Cumcision Email: None To: VP Subject: Cults and sects Message: VP: The thing's a CULT just like my parents told me. It was nice to hear it from the people who had been there. It gave it more credibility than hearing it from someone who was not a member. One reasonable definition of a 'cult' is that it's a religion that spurns competition within it's own belief structure. The Rhadasaomi movement is a religion that has many competing 'sects' including Advait Mat and EV. The groups in the west tend to be seen outside their overall relrigious context, and are therefor 'cults.' All of this definition stuff is pretty subjective, of course. 'Cult' is not even a term that's used very much in the sociology of religion. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 16:12:34 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott Subject: If not 'cult', what then? Message: Scott, What word do you suggest then? I am open. What is a good word for a group of people with a fanatical leader who institutes a bizarre and secretive initiation and after this ceremony systematically reduces the individual identities of his followers so they subcumb to his demands?? etc. etc. I always understood this type of organization to be a cult. ''Cult' is not even a term that's used very much in the sociology of religion.' Didn't Maharaji say that this is not a religion? I didn't think this was a religion. I am not arguing with you, I am interested to hear your thoughts on this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 18:18:08 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: If not 'cult', what then? Message: VP: What is a good word for a group of people with a fanatical leader who institutes a bizarre and secretive initiation and after this ceremony systematically reduces the individual identities of his followers so they subcumb to his demands?? etc. etc. A fraternity? Kidding aside, the problem is that some of the terms in your description are open to subjective judgment. Clearly, not everyone in EV is fanatical, for instance. I suspect that the impression gained by 'Batmite' in a post above has more to do with the tolerance of the premie community in the early 70s than with M's actual words or intentions. I did not feel pressured by other premies to become fanatical or super devoted. So, many of those folks were not behaving in a typically cult-like way. Jurgensmeyer, and even David Lane treat the Rhadasaomi group as a religion rather than a cult, so one of the things that makes M cultlike is that he fails to even mention his compeers. In truth, he knows so damn little that he probably doesn't even know their names (other than BBJ, of course.) Few in India would regard Ruhani Satsang as a cult, even though Kirpal Singh had more followers than M, by far. Ultimately, to be honest, it comes down to a determination of legitimacy by the large segment of the public that are non-believers, and that can be rather subjective and arbitrary. To me, it's appropriate to view EV as a sect that has acquired some cult-like characteristics, specifically by the design of its rather un-enlightened leader. Looking at it that way imposes an expectation upon him that he act responsibly, in comparison to some of his competitors (plus, it acknowledges that he has competitors). If you insist on using the 'cult' shorthand, though, that's fine with me. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Aug 15, 1998 at 00:18:03 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Animal House-on topic Message: 'Clearly, not everyone in EV is fanatical' I never said that they were. The premies I know are not fanatics. If anything, they are withdrawn and secretive about their involvement. I said they had a 'fanatical leader'. However, even that is arguable. Fanatical about getting his way, having things run perfectly, having material things-yes, I think so. 'To me, it's appropriate to view EV as a sect that has acquired some cult-like characteristics, specifically by the design of its rather un-enlightened leader.' I agree that he is rather un-enlightened. When do you think that the sect acquired these cult-like characteristics? Jean-Michel has said that maharaji is doing and saying the same things that he always has. I don't think that the cult-like characteristics have been acquired recently. I think it was very cult-like in the 70's, too. As you pointed out, maybe that is just a subjective (Western?) perspective. 'Looking at it that way imposes an expectation upon him that he act responsibly, in comparison to some of his competitors (plus, it acknowledges that he has competitors).' We can 'impose expectations' on the guy all day long. It doesn't mean he will live up to them. Ha! No, I know exactly what you are saying. I just wanted to be argumentative. Hell, everyone else here is doing it. Is there some kind of testosterone surge? I do think we should call it a 'fraternity'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Aug 15, 1998 at 21:31:03 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: red heart Subject: The Premie Forum Message: >It's a sham We all jump to conclusions too quickly! CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 10:15:23 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: Peter Subject: The Premie Forum Message: 'The Premie Forum is for premies who are into Maharaji.' I take your point but I was justa greeing with part of a message that was already there. Thanks for the links. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 06:43:41 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: VP Subject: Never mind Message: sorry, didn't get the pun. the problem with writing messages is that you can't hear someone's tone of voice. tone of voice says so much. i'm an ex aspirant. i was humiliated by m in front of a whole room of premies and aspirants when i stood up and asked for knowledge. I wasn't given it, apparently because I was 'too much in my head'. I was devastated and went down on the beach and cried. I thought 'How on earth does M know whether or not I'm 'ready'?' I was living in a squat at the time (1992), and all of us except a guy called Baba who had overstayed his visa in India by 30 years and been extradited back to Britain (living as a sadhu, totally in another world - but right about one thing: he called M the 'Dwarf of Ignorance') - all of us were into M, had the pictures, the little shrines, quoted what he said, tried to 'live in the moment' etc etc. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 08:40:21 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Becky Subject: Never mind Message: I'm of the belief that people are refused Knowledge so that those who remain in the room are more docile and 'grateful' for the 'gift'. Years ago I heard about a technique used in Vietnam to question prisoners. You'd take three of them up very high in a helicopter and, before asking any questions, throw one out the door. It got the attention of those remaining and the information would be forthcoming. That's an appalling story, of course, but the point is made by telling it. In both cases (war and Peace) there is a complete disregard for humanity, but a clear control of the situation is established. Those who remain are totally cowed. That 'humility' is deeply ingrained and remains for years. I can understand why you would be devastated by the experience. But Maharaji doesn't care about the fish he tosses back, any more than he cares about the ones he keeps. Only that there is obedience established in those who remain, and that there will always be fish on the table. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 10:54:48 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Brian Subject: Never mind Message: I'm of the belief that people are refused Knowledge so that those who remain in the room are more docile and 'grateful' for the 'gift'. Yes, that's got to be true. It was true for the mahatma/initiator/instructors too. They played that game and expanded their importance and mystique to no end. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 21:13:55 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Brian Subject: Never mind Message: I'm of the belief that people are refused Knowledge so that those who remain in the room are more docile and 'grateful' for the 'gift'. You've just reminded me how degrading the whole aspirant experience is. In the whole lead up to my Knowledge Session, there were so many stories about people who'd ask and get refused. Premies would tell you the reasons why these aspirants got refused, and it just installed another degree of 'fear' into us, that fear of being humiliated in public. Also, sometimes, there was a pervasive feeling of smugness present, like 'Oh that aspirant didn't receive K because they were too in their heads. I'm much more ready than they are' type bullshit. I found the three days of my Knowledge Session so torturous. Herded from room to room, having your names checked so many times, asked how regular you watched videos, how many live events you'd been to, did you have any family members who would interfere with your practise blah blah, all the while with your aspirant coordinator watching to make sure you didn't lie about your attendance. Such a totally fucked thing to do to people! Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 16:50:12 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: TD Subject: Never mind Message: TD: I can remember being an aspirant coordinator (or as we were called then, 'propogation coordinator') and I always was rooting for the aspirants I knew to receive knowledge from the initiator. But the initiators, and especially the mahatmas, seemed to have their own ways of doing things. I always found the knowledge selection process tortious. Sometimes it seemed so arbitrary and sometimes I think the initiators just didn't like somebody, knew they had to reject some so that the others would feel 'privileged' or 'chosen,' which seemed to be an essential part of the process. It seems like you have to be very programmed before even receiving knowledge, because if you are not, you might see the simple truth that Maharaji has nothing to do with the experience you are having. AnaMaria's post is a good example of that kind of programming. I think I have already mentioned the time Padarthanand rejected a black guy I knew, saying bigoted shit like black people were lazy and unlikely to be dedicated enough to receive knowledge. That really freaked me out. And Padarthanand was also able to look down on me as being not 'clear' enough to know who was ready for knowledge and who wasn't, while he, with his spiritual advancement, could read aspirant's minds. What utter nonsense. It appears Padarthanand was likely checking out all the premie and aspirant sisters, trying to decide which one he could sexually assault and get away with it. And of course, who is selected and who isn't is a topic of much gossip among the premies. Premies also just love to lord it over aspirants who aren't accepted for knowledge. It is SUCH a weird 'holier-than-thou' trip. Very, very sick. Even when I received knowledge in 1973, there was a 'selection' and a number of people were rejected for reasons that didn't make any apparent sense. You had to have been attending satsang (every night) for at least a month, but that wasn't a guarantee. Of course, I believed it was all the divine plan, so when I DIDN'T get rejected, I felt 'chosen' and since I had come that far, it was easier for me to swallow the bullshit that came that I was supposed to dedicate my life to Maharaji. I should have just stamped out of the room, but I wanted it so badly by that point, that I was well on my way with putting up with about anything to get it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 18:12:02 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: JW Subject: Never mind Message: And Padarthanand was also able to look down on me as being not 'clear' enough to know who was ready for knowledge and who wasn't, while he, with his spiritual advancement, could read aspirant's minds. That makes so much sense JW! At one of our many go-sit-in-the-room and wait-and-have-your-names-checked sessions, Padarthanand would come in, walk up to the front where there was a desk, do a scan of the names, then a scan of us and then walk out again. I remember trying to look so 'conscious' and 'ready' when he was doing his visual scan, so that he wouldn't notice I wasn't 'ready'. What a wanker! And they all did it. Charanand, Balkus, but it was Padarthanand who had the most impact! I do remember reading your bit on Paddy rejecting the black guy! Gee he must have a problem when he goes to West Africa to select aspirants - or maybe he's not given that junket!! Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 19:29:21 (EDT)
From: To Becky Email: None To: Becky Subject: Never mind Message: Becky...do you know cosmic Tim? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 08:21:29 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: anon Subject: yes i do Message: Hi Tim. If that's you, welcome to the Forum. if that's anyone else, i've known him since about 1992. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 08:52:30 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Becky Subject: yes i do Message: Hi Becky. We have met. I am anonymous here so don't want to say too much but I know Tim (and Carol) very well. I don't think 'Cosmic' is about to enjoin the fun on this forum. He and I unfortunately 'fell out' quite dramatically over our differences of opinion about Maharaji. I would love to see him attempt to hold his own with Jim (or anyone else) with his 'cosmic' ideas about Life and the Universe here. My guess is that he thinks all this talk is The Evil Mind. I don't think that he will post here he would be eaten alive Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 09:24:43 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Anon Subject: el-cosmico Message: Hi, Anon. I have known Carol since school (since we were about 14) . Her, tim and me (and others) lived in a squat in London, but then they moved away. Actually I sent them some printouts from this forum. Funny, they haven't contacted me since. Yes, I do get on Tim's nerves - even when I was into M I got on his nerves because I did not submit to his analysis of me. Now I get on his nerves even more because I cannot take him seriously. he's Scorpio like Jim, and yes I would LOVE to see Tim try his cosmic stuff out on Jim. Last time I saw Tim (at Wembley) he told me to cut my hair. The few times when he saw me upset and crying he'd say 'I love it when you cry' - meaning that I was all vulnerable, I was 'releasing my feelings'. He also said he wanted to see me drunk and out of control. I think its my 'self-control' that really bugged him. however, I'm a pretty emotional person. I just didn't open up to HIM, that's all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 09:26:15 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Becky Subject: el-cosmico PS Message: Did you know Tim at the squat or from the town where he lives now? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 09:27:58 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Anon Subject: el-cosmico PPS Message: I'd love to know who you are. You can e-mail me on frontline.media@virgin.net Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 21:05:23 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Becky Subject: el-cosmico PPS Message: I have emailed you at that address. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 13:12:26 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Becky Subject: Nice guy? Message: 'Last time I saw Tim (at Wembley) he told me to cut my hair. The few times when he saw me upset and crying he'd say 'I love it when you cry' - meaning that I was all vulnerable, I was 'releasing my feelings'. He also said he wanted to see me drunk and out of control.' Sounds like a real 'sensitive' guy-(COUGH!) The guy takes pleasure in watching people out of control- even crying? I don't know about that...it doesn't sound very balanced. Scorpios are OK, though ;) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 08:03:30 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: VP Subject: A very very nice man Message: Yes, very sensitive. he has also proclaimed that maharaji is the 'second coming'. Once when I was questioning Maharaji, I said to tim, 'What about the Dalai Lama?'. 'The Dalai Lama is just a monk!' he scoffed. He says he's tried Zen meditation but its too dry. He did try to win me back into the fold, but has now had to accept my standpoint. Anyway, I don't want to slag off someone who was once a friend. I just want to demonstrate how someone can become a fundamentalist Maharaji fanatic convinced that maharaji is 'the only way'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Aug 16, 1998 at 23:11:26 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com To: Anon Subject: Know me? Message: I would keep your secret if you care to share with me who you are. Or if not,maybe you could spare some hints that I might guess? Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Aug 16, 1998 at 23:14:33 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Anon and Becky Subject: Never mind, never in London!nt Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Aug 17, 1998 at 08:33:01 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Carol Subject: Who are we? Message: I don't know if you are my beloved friend, Carol. Or if you are another Carol. does the word Fausto mean anything to you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Aug 17, 1998 at 14:38:01 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Becky Subject: Who are we? Message: No, Becky. I'm in the white pages on site but haven't done a Journey entry. I live near Portland, Oregon USA and have since I was born! I've seen no place I liked better except maybe Vancouver,BC. but both here and there are getting too popular and populated! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 18, 1998 at 08:26:27 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Carol Subject: Who are we? Message: I think Anon was referring to a Carol who we both know in the UK. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 03:25:38 (EDT)
From: keith Email: None To: Everyone Subject: me Message: Am I still banned ? Just finding out . If this post finds its way to the forum , I would like to try again to communicate and participate without running headlong into world war three . I am me ; regardless who I post as ; but I promise to not allow my more surpressed sub-personalities the go ahead again. My experimentation failed as a way to reach the hearts and minds of the majority of forum dwellers . So be it ! I can dust myself off and try again , but will the great , all powerful , webmaster ; the wizard of EX , allow me to ? (Jokey poo Brian). Well we shall see ! Love to all , Keith . Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 08:26:31 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: keith Subject: you Message: Of course the subject is you!! What's different? Wanna post to an online forum? Does it have a topic already? No problem. Just 'move' the topic towards yourself! Dwell on your self (or selves, as the case may be) until you BECOMES the topic! I was deeply touched by your apology to Katie. It shows such shallow sincerity. As did your 'AUTHORITARIANISM' post. Now we can add this touching little ditty to your list of posts totally unconnected with the forum topic. The REAL one. The 'Not-Keith' one. Your use of the word 'experimentation' absolves you of all responsibility for any of the other words you choose, doesn't it? And besides, those posts were from 'Not-Keith' - other more suppressed sub-personalities that lurk in the corners of the junkpile of muddled thinking that you've accumulated by being unwilling to pass judgement on any of your mental treasures. Everything's perfect. No need to toss any of it out. Let it pile up randomly. If it spills over into other people's lives, that's life - perfect life. It's my honest opinion, Keith, that you need to see a professional to help you sort it all out. How Mirabai can live with the crowd you call a person is totally beyond me, but you should get down on your knees and thank her for putting up with you-all. There are a lot of people here who have shown you kindness and understanding, and who are far more supportive of you than you have ever been of them. Your gibberish email documenting your internal structure didn't make it to the forum, since people individually came to the conclusion that it was an indication of the inner turmoil that you live with and far too embarrasing to you. But for those who don't understand why I would block you in the first place, I was sorely tempted to post it. Yet even the evil webmaster that you choose to NOT apologize to has feelings, Keith, and can empathize with an out-patient who has found no 'in' to go to, and who stubbornly refuses to seek out one that doesn't burn incense in the waiting room. Don't flatter me with jokey-poo's, Keith. I don't see the humor in having to police your actions while you ignore the problems you cause me. What I will do is up your limit to 2 and remove the size restriction. Say something useful. Say you're getting help. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 01:43:28 (EDT)
From: keith Email: None To: Brian Subject: you Message: You've got me all summed up and certified it seems Brian. Brian , did it occur to you that my frustrated and extreme outpourings may have partly been as a reaction to the type of responses I was receiving to my more moderate 'keith' type posts . Is it poor deranged me who is a nut-case needing professional help as against the relatively together other forum dwellers ? It is not that I see you or anyone else as evil ; and as far as not appologising ; only Gerry and Robyn have appologised to me (or said they were sorry for out mutual mis-understandings ) and I have recipricated in kind. Do you want an open forum or are those like myself (and there have been many others) who seek some forum type self examination simply unwelcome ? I feel that my posts as keith were not crazily mixed up as you tend to infer. And M.B was an experiment that was screaming out where previous attempts at reasonable debate failed. Read back through the threads before M.B and quote where I went bezerko? As for the focus on myself . Do you really believe that is my motivation? listen to ME ! pay attention to ME ! Well , believe that if you want ; but it never was my motivation . As for my e-mail , about 'sub-personalities' . I can't believe that you or anyone else can't relate to this. Do you believe in a subconscious ? Anyway , I'm through with feeling I have to exclusively justify myself as if I'm the outlaw . Yes , I've made errors of judgement ; but Brian how easy it is to admit mistakes viewed in retrospect . And exposing ones vulnerable shadows and defects is not easy to do in an atmosphere of recrimination and judgement. I have no qualms about you posting my e-mail , btw , and feel that the topic exposed could be of some general interest . My brief appology to Katie was sincere ; and you should not place yourself as a great armchair psychologist to be able to question or fully understand my inner world . Lastly , Brian , my little joke , about you being the wizard of EX , was a reaction to your gloating over the power you had over me ; the power of you controlling my input ; which I acknowledge you have . Final word ; I do acknowledge that under the name of M.B I went to far ; I am not blind to that . So ; YOU HAVE PUNISHED ME . Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 04:19:23 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: lotuspower@aol.com To: keith Subject: you Message: Yes, you seem obsessed with yourself, Keith. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 20:46:49 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: AnaMaria's Aspirations Message: AnaMaria sent this. It's a bit too wordy for the Letters page, so I'll post it here: I am an aspirant and have been for 4 years. I know 4 years is a long time and I just want to say that it is my own immaturity and you know some sort of 'pride' or something that keeps me an aspirant and not one with knowledge and until this summer I thought I did not care if I ever got knowledge, but that all changed as I 'grew up' a little yeah? And I think that with anything worth anything you must be devoted to it. I have not yet rec'd knowledge but I will one day and until then I will have the privellage and honour of experienceing my Master and believe me I am very sorry that you have such anger in your heart as Maharaji is all about love and this is all I know. Yes it used to bother me that I was 'required' to see so many videos a week and attend so many meeting etc but who cares? I mean in the real world of me if there is no room for my Master than there is no room for my life. I just wanted to say that perhaps you guys just need some love and you know I know that Maharaji is always with me and loves me as he does you and everyone. but true he is not everyones' Master and we all need different kinds of Guru's but I really wish I had never seen this page as it hurts my heart and I just hope that you will one day be filled with love again.Thank you for reading this and please enjoy a beautiful life! love from your sister, AnnaMaria Giovachino AnaMariadaisy@yahoo.com Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 21:07:30 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Brian Subject: Like Jesus Freaks Message: What in the world did I ever do to deserve this? It's like discovering that half your family's retarded and -- get this! -- you were too until you moved away. Years away from that bucolic and serene little valley, the influence wears off. Then, by fluke, you discover what had happened. There was a weird metal salt in the valley's water. It was no one's fault but still, it pains you to recall and it pains you worse to visit. If only you could just drag thse people out of the valley for a while. But you can't. Civil liberties and all. What's the point of emailing this girl and telling her anything? She already thinks Maharaji's always with her. And that's without knowledge. That little cocksucker. No, I think I'll email her a link to Satpal's page. Just for the hell of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 22:39:19 (EDT)
From: x Email: None To: Jim + Subject: I Give Up Message: Hello Forum, Well, I just got off the phone with my premie mother, after completing a conversation I can only describe as frustrating and eerie. I told her that I was sorry for going into a big deprogramming rap wth her every time we talk, but that I cant help it, That its a white elephant in the room to me, hard to ignore. I am driving her away by constantly confronting her about the hypocrisy and toxicity of Maharaji's 'mission', but I cant help it. I care about her and its impossible to ignore a blunder of the magnitude of devoting your life to a fraud. Everything she says in response to my queries, is practically verbatim of what the premies here, (Keith, CD, Redheels, another, etc.) keep slugging away with ie. the party line. The same programmed stock answers that all premies turn to, to rationalise away anything logical or sensible. 'But you cant use logic to experience this knowledge', they say. All part of the flawless con of bm's. How convenient that you cant use logic! Without logic its pointless to discuss anything in my opinion. So its a brick wall with these people, including the hopeful aspirant who started this tread. I am really going to try hard to lay off my mom on this nonsense, I'm tired of it, its her loss, and I have to admit I overestimated her intelligence. Maybe someday we can laugh at all this, I truly hope so. I know sometimes my posts are a little vitriolic, but I'm really angry at the influence bm has made on my life, via my naive and, at the time, ripe for a guru trip, parents. I truly feel that Maharaji is, for lack of a better term, EVIL!!! thank for lisening, x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 12:51:01 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: x Subject: I Give Up Message: Hi x - First let me say that I don't think you are too vitriolic. If you want to get angry at M, this is the place to do it, so rant on. I like your posts. Although I cannot IMAGINE having a premie mother, I have had to resign myself to having a superficial relationship with my own mother, for different reasons. Actually, the reasons are somewhat similar: she refuses to deal with some stuff that went on and is going on in our family, and gets really freaked out when anyone brings it up. It's hard, because my mom doesn't understand why I don't want to open up to her and be 'close' to her and come home for the holidays, etc. So I sympathize with your situation. I really love my mom, and that makes the whole situation quite difficult for me - if I didn't, it would be a lot easier. You may feel something similar. I really do hope that your mom will someday get out of the whole M cult. I can't imagine how these people stay into it for 25 years or more - honestly. I think both eb and Selena have spoke about the pain and frustration of losing close friends who are still premies. It must be much worse when it's a family member. Take care, x Katie P.S. By the way, I really like 'the EX formerly known as x'. Maybe we can just call you 'The Ex', like they call Prince 'The Artist'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 13:58:24 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: x Subject: Cultic Moms Message: x: My mother is not a premie, but a Christian Scientist practitioner. Every time I call her, or she calls me, I get 'satsang' about Mary Baker Eddy or some aspect of CS. Unlike the rest of my siblings, however, I refuse to respond. My mother appreciates this, and seems to recognize that her efforts are, at least to some extent, 'involuntary.' She really can't help it, and the fact that I just let the comments hang gives her all the feedback she seems to need from me. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 22:35:37 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Cultic Moms Message: Hi Scott and x. re: cultic moms, mine as you know, is mormon. I'm able to get along with her better than my other sibs because IMHO I'm far enough removed from that particular cult so that whatever she says about it doesn't really affect me. I even went to church with my grandmother while I was with her this summer. It made her happy and I saw it as a quaint cultural experience. I'm not that far along in my healing from the Big M cult. I can tell because of my response to my premie friend. I have no advice for you, x, but just know your posts really speak to me. I appreciate you and everyone here. With gratitude, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 00:08:18 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Brian Subject: Truly Disturbing Message: Poor AnaMaria, she's already blaming herself for not being good enough and already believes M LOVES her when she likely has never even met him and never will. She is primed by these core premie beliefs to be a stagnated, repressed, paranoid, self-deceptive, programmed premie for a long, long time. I hope to God somebody shakes some sense into her before that happens! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 13:39:28 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: JW Subject: For 'formerly x' Message: Did you read the helpful parable that TD posted? I think it applies to your situation. Your mom is like the man buying the house, refusing to see what is in the basement. You are like the brother, acting out of love. Don't give up hope, even if you do give up trying to talk about it with her. (Do you think she would read that story if you printed it and gave it to her?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 14:22:32 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: x Subject: your mom Message: Dear X, I have been lurking more than reading of late as I just don't have much to say. But I want to join in on this one. I really feel for you. I hope somewhere your mom recognizes you love her so much and this is where you are coming from. It must be so hard to have your own mother spewing the premiespeak. I too would have to keep pecking away at her. Maybe someday you'll catch her when she is receptive. Maybe something someday will hit the right chord....like the Mala dance hit me one day and that was the beginning of the end for me.... I wish I had words of wisdom but all I can offer is that I feel for you on this. It must be like having access to only part of your mom, because I really think when people are under Rawat's spell you almost cannot really know who they are...and it would be so nice in this lifetime to have a whole mother...even if it is as an adult. I feel like something was stolen from you that is almost worse than what was stolen from us. We put ourselves in harms way by whatever made us buy the Guru trip...but you were simply hijacked by no fault of your own. And you could go through your entire life not knowing what your mom would be like without being in a cult. Am I being overly dramatic? But that is how I feel about it. It makes me really angry at the guru after all these years, still hurting people, still tearing apart families in an insidious way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 02:17:47 (EDT)
From: formerly x Email: x2000@goplay.com To: g's mom,Katie,eb,VP,Scott Subject: thank you Message: Thanks for your support and advice you guys, it really feels good to know that other people experience similar problems communicating with their parents as well. I would feel the same way towards my mom if she were a fundamentalist christian or a scientologist, I think. I missed the parable about the basement but I'm planning to explore the archives when I get a chance. My mom is actually open to reading what I print her. In fact if any one wants to e-mail me advice for my situation or has anything they can say to my mom, feel free thanks again, formerly x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 08:27:09 (EDT)
From: The parable is Email: None To: formerly x Subject: still active, f.x. Message: Look near the bottom of eb's 'I came out but freaked out' thread below. I believe it is called 'helpful parable' by TD. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 20:36:25 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: None To: Brian Subject: Joking? Message: This is a wind-up, right, Brian? I sincerely hope so as the alternative is almost too awful to contemplate - that after all these years, all the broken promises and revised autobiographies, Prem Rawat (a meditation teacher of some renown) finds it necessary to keep people waiting around for four years before doing any meditation teaching. I'd ask for my money (or my heart) back, if I were this poor kid. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 23:37:34 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Nigel Subject: Joking? Message: I find her letter, and the distorted perceptions behind it, to be chilling. Especially these words: I mean in the real world of me if there is no room for my Master than there is no room for my life. It's hard to believe that she was wandering around with this sort of thinking before she began her personal video marathon. Yet she has come to a conclusion that parrots what she's absorbed from watching Maharaji tease her about Life's Big Secret That He Maybe Will Someday Be In The Mood To Reveal To Her. AnaMarie, Maharaji will rush right over to your country when there's enough money in it for him. How very loving of him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Aug 14, 1998 at 18:54:55 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: Brian Subject: and another thing... Message: I find her letter, and the distorted perceptions behind it, to be chilling. Especially these words: 'I mean in the real world of me if there is no room for my Master than there is no room for my life.' I would like to add that I wonder how AnaMarie came to this level of being programmed by watching videos. Sounds to me like she is expressing sentiments I had, but it took a lot more satsang and community involvement for me to be that deeply affected. eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Aug 15, 1998 at 09:59:36 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: mc@hamzen.demon.co.uk To: eb Subject: and another thing... Message: maybe annamarie is having an experience of something really deep for the first time in her life and attributes that to maharaji, maybe she wouldn't be having this experience (set & setting) without the thought of being near god in personal form i sometimes feel this forum is fine if you are a mega skeptical person/atheist but doubt that it creates the space for a lot of premies to separate their 'spiritual' experiences from the bullshit surrounding their experiences. while pulling away from the bullshit myself i would have felt the 'vibe' here was too heavy! i do also wonder sometimes if people going anti to a cynical level are not still tied into gmj's game Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Aug 15, 1998 at 10:41:38 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: hamzen Subject: and another thing... Message: maybe annamarie is having an experience of something really deep for the first time in her life and attributes that to maharaji, maybe she wouldn't be having this experience (set & setting) without the thought of being near god in personal form Are you serious? What do you mean by 'experience'? frocing yourself to zone out and get faintly mesmerized by some guy in a video telling you 'the secret is within'? Let's talk about 'truth' for a moment. Even a premie wouldn't suggest that Maharaji is somehow giving this girl an 'experience' through her tv set. Or would you? i sometimes feel this forum is fine if you are a mega skeptical person/atheist but doubt that it creates the space for a lot of premies to separate their 'spiritual' experiences from the bullshit surrounding their experiences. So what would you suggest? while pulling away from the bullshit myself i would have felt the 'vibe' here was too heavy! Maybe you just haven't pulled away far enough yet. i do also wonder sometimes if people going anti to a cynical level are not still tied into gmj's game I suppose so long as someone thinks or talks about Maharaji he could be accused of being 'tied into gmj's game'. On that level does it even matter that they're saying? Cynical or not, they're still thinking about him. But, you know, that's just another stupid cliche, this one I think from the guru stories of the saint who carried the girl across the water but doesn't think about her anymore while his pupil, who watched mortified, can't get her out of his mind and thus is still 'tied into' the event. This is dumb. On that level you could say that anti-war activists were still 'tied into the war'. So what? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Aug 15, 1998 at 12:15:58 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: mc@hamzen.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: and another thing... Message: 'maybe annamarie is having an experience of something really deep for the first time in her life and attributes that to maharaji, maybe she wouldn't be having this experience (set & setting) without the thought of god in personal formbeing near.Are you serious?' I'm absolutely serious.When I'm talking about experience I'm referring to very different ones than sitting zoning out. That might have been your experience, that surely wasn't mine.(Maybe that's unfair and an unnattributed assumption from your comment.) Have you read about set and setting & how peoples experiences can be radically altered? If you beliene someone is God, really believe it, you are much more likely to relax and go somewhere really deep, nothing to do with the guru, just your belief system supplying massive amounts of security without your fears reining you in. 'i sometimes feel this forum is fine if you are a mega skeptical person/atheist but doubt that it creates the space for a lot of premies to separate their 'spiritual' experiences from the bullshit surrounding their experiences. what do you suggest' debate. I did start a thread but was offline until today, apologies to everyone. 'Maybe you just haven't pulled away far enough yet.' I'll leave that to others to make their own judgement, personally I'm more than happy with my position spiritually (for want of a better word)and the complete irrelevance of gm/ev to that position Not thinks or talks, got no problem with that, no I'm talking about unresolved emotional stuff that still needs the guru to be there, to be really angry with. Anger's fine for the individual and others needing to work their anger through but if this site is also about helping all those lurking premies, some of whom I know, & still in contact with, not a very practical route. I'd rather people broke free than retreated back in to ev, that would be really sad. Last but not least and you may not care about timings, but before finding your response and responding I've had a pop at you elsewhere. Factual not emotional cover for attack. although I don't agree with your overall position I have a lot of sympathy for your fight against sloppy thinking. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Aug 15, 1998 at 16:29:08 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: hamzen Subject: That's outrageously dumb Message: If you beliene someone is God, really believe it, you are much more likely to relax and go somewhere really deep, nothing to do with the guru, just your belief system supplying massive amounts of security without your fears reining you in. This is too stupid for further comment. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Aug 16, 1998 at 03:23:36 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: mc@hamzen.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: That's outrageously dumb Message: maybe it is, but I know loads of people, not including myself I might add, who went through exactly that process, what are you going to do, just write them off? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Aug 16, 1998 at 07:57:35 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: hamzen Subject: That's outrageously dumb Message: 'maybe it is, but I know loads of people, not including myself I might add, who went through exactly that process, what are you going to do, just write them off?' Yes, until they want to communicate. I have no doubt you have given up on many people like this. Hmmmmmm.... you remind me of someone I know. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Aug 16, 1998 at 13:09:58 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Please explain Message: Hamzen, You wrote: I know loads of people, not including myself I might add, who went through exactly that process My question: How many people is loads? You say AnaMarie may be having an experience of something really deep for the first time in her life My question: How can this be possible? I've seen the videos--they're less inspiring than 1/2 hour infomercials on ThighPumpers. IMO, if someone is turned on and has a spiritual experience by watching the EV videos, someone needs to get a life. I've had more enlightening experiences after taking a laxative. (Sorry, I know this is more info than you guys wanted). Re: Your statement about still being tied into GMJ by virtue of participation on this forum--I agree that I am still in the process of extricating myself from years of programming. I figure once I get tired of this crap, I'll be so enlightened that I'll write a book, start my own deprogramming company, and lead workshops at $2,000 a pop. Hey, it's better than camping out in the Nevada desert to research UFOs out in Area 50-something. Just my opinions, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Aug 17, 1998 at 17:23:00 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: mc@hamzen.demon.co.uk To: eb Subject: Please explain Message: RE LOADS,=30+ Re ANAMARIE/ It isn1t just about the videos, she could have had states triggered by talking to people about their experiences and feeling something, feeling it1s the right time, because she1s gaining in confidence, she could be finding she1s attracting more positivity back from the people around her, she might be triggering experiences she1s attributing to gm, she might have fallen for some gorgeous person who meditates regularly, she might be in a supportive community for the first time in her life, she could have had dreams, unusual occurrences interpreted as synchronicity, etc etc Re the videos, couldn1t agree more, especially when there is his music or poetry involved, those I find embarrassingly sad, the music especially is so rhythmically dull and could never arise unless that person was completely ungrounded in their body, but again if you have had meditation experiences he doesn1t need to explicate, you fill in the gaps for yourself, he becomes a reflector. just remembering someones comment about gm reflecting their unresolved childhood relationship with their father Re the deprogramming, get your skates on, it could become a competitive field especially if/when he pulls out. but hey good pay & job satisfaction, don1t forget a bit of NLP though Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Aug 17, 1998 at 16:12:38 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jim Subject: Ungh-uh, Jim Message: This isn't stupid! It describes a state of mind in which one is receptive and trusting and open BECAUSE of their belief about the trustworthiness of the person they believe is God!!!This fits right in with your belief about our experiences being products of our own minds/brains! (And you are being insulting in your manner of disagreement!) I have experienced this same thing in coming to knowledge as well as in some other personal attachments! You get an experience just from your own state of vulnerability and trust or love and then attribute it to the other! Carol hamzen said: 'If you believe someone is God, really believe it, you are much more likely to relax and go somewhere really deep, nothing to do with the guru, just your belief system supplying massive amounts of security without your fears reining you in.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Aug 17, 1998 at 17:20:07 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: mc@hamzen.demon.co.uk To: Jethro/Carol Subject: Ungh-uh, Jim Message: Re writing them off/ -on a personal level, maybe, especially if I doubted the quality of their experience or they were hugely inconsistent, but surely this web site exists not just for personal testimony but to help the waverers. I don1t know many people who will engage in dialogue if they feel they are likely to be insulted or not listened to with at least some degree of respect, unless they are in dependency roles. Re knowing me, got shown the techniques spring 74 S.London, lived in N.London 74-76, wales 76-78, n.london 78-85, worcester 86-87, sheffield 88-92, Essex 92 -.... Only went really regularly to satsang 74-75, less regularly 80-82, only ever seen gm at <=10 times, occasionally go every 18 months to videos in e.london now, only know one jethro, if it is you, a big shout out to one of the sanest insane people I know, I love ya Re Jims comments, thanks Carol, &if it1s not bogus flattery, more fluent than my description Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 18, 1998 at 00:58:06 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Carol Subject: Big diff Message: I guess what I take issue with (besides Hamzen using the number 'l' in stead of the letter 'i') is saying that she's gone 'somewhere really deep'. How about she THINKS she's gone somewhere really deep? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 18, 1998 at 14:36:43 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Big diff Message: Jim I was trying to imagine what Anamaries experience might be on her own terms, not yours or mine. As for the 1's,.....hang-on what am I explaining for, I could be dyslexic, only joking Jim, well 50/50. I'm using Netscape Navigator on a mac, they aren't there in the edit message box but appear when the message is ready for posting? Anyone else had this problem? Talking of which, is there any way to save a thread or a run of messages in one strike? Net novice alert! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Aug 17, 1998 at 19:40:57 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: hamzen Subject: and another thing... Message: Hamzen: Yes, I have heard of 'set & setting.' It comes straight out of a book called, 'The Psychedelic Experience.' It was by Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert and is based upon the Tibetan Book of the Dead. This is a guide book for drug-related experiences (psychedelic drugs, to be precise). Is this the type of 'experience' to which you refer? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Aug 17, 1998 at 19:50:33 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Hamzen Subject: See... Message: We are relatively well-read here! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 18, 1998 at 14:55:22 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Mike Subject: See... Message: 'We are relatively well-read here'. Thank god for that. The main reason I1ve been visiting this site so far is finding the use of logic and intelligence around gm/knowledge. An astonishly rare pairing in my experience. 'This is a guide book for drug-related experiences (psychedelic drugs, to be precise). Is this the type of 'experience' to which you refer?' Yes/no/but. I see our whole reality as a continual drug experience generated by the enormous numbers and amounts of consciousness altering drugs in our bodies every single moment of our lives, any one of which changing too fast alters our experience of reality. There is now a growing amount of literature showing the degree of interaction both ways between body/state of mind and state of mind/body.With that in the background at all times I see set & setting as a crucial part of everyday reality, let alone altered states. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 23:48:22 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Just watched Long Beach Message: You know, I have known about Maharaji and knowledge since I was very young. Even though I never fully believed that he was the perfect master, it was exciting to believe that there was a possibility there could be one alive in my time. After watching the Long Beach Video tonight, I am struck by how much of the belief system that I have had all my life can be attibuted to Maharaji and or the premies who gave me Satsang. For example, I always deemed it important to put self-fullfillment and spirituality as a high priority. I have always seen God as some kind of energy within me(embarrassing, but like 'the force' in Star Wars). It was really scary tonight to realize how much of this probably came from DLM/Maharaji. I guess I have still clung to many beliefs even though I KNOW where they came from. The cult is aging. The premies in buisness suits looked so respectable. Where are the beautiful long haired girls who haven't shaved in months? M's daughter was the only one who looked (and sounded) like a premie to me! Her voice is so beautiful, even if someone did change the words to Teach me Devotion. Remember when Maharaji was going to 'take control and make us all one?' now 'he's in our hearts teaching us how to love' or some such thing. But this is just a coat of paint. The cult is only hidden beneath the surface for a little while. It has to come up for air. For instance, his daughter sings lila. Later he gets up and does a strange little dance--rather uptight and forced for this serious man in a suit sitting in a chair. Everyone looks so damn Westernized and civilized, but they go mad with anticipation when this guy MIGHT dance for them. It is truly the most bizarre thing I have ever seen. Then when he does wave his hands in the air, the crowd goes wild. I was embarrassed and uncomfortable watching that video. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 05:56:31 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: VP Subject: Just watched Long Beach Message: VP wondered: 'Where are the beautiful long haired girls who haven't shaved in months?' I didn't know you were into bearded ladies. You can't beat an air-force moustache or a nice sailor's beard on a woman can you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 10:31:27 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Just watched Long Beach Message: Good one, David. That gave me a belly laugh, and I haven't even had my coffee yet. Rick Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 12:07:46 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Sir David Subject: No bearded ladies, thanks:) Message: David, You are hilarious! I was talking about hippies. I'm sure you gathered that, but it was really late here and I was half asleep when I posted, so it DID come out sounding really funny. HA HA! No bearded ladies for me, thanks. But you can skip the suits, shoulder pads, and pumps. Give me blue jeans and no make-up anyday. Those premies looked so together, I guess I was just surprised. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 12:13:51 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: No bearded ladies, thanks:) Message: I knew what you were talking about, Veep! Maybe because I was one of those ladies... Katie P.S. Still can't wear heels - I fall off. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 10:45:18 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: Just watched Long Beach Message: Hi Veep - Boy, I could only watch half the video, and I never got to the 'dancing' part. Just as well, eh? You also wrote: I am struck by how much of the belief system that I have had all my life can be attibuted to Maharaji and or the premies who gave me Satsang. For example, I always deemed it important to put self-fullfillment and spirituality as a high priority. I have always seen God as some kind of energy within me (embarrassing, but like 'the force' in Star Wars). It was really scary tonight to realize how much of this probably came from DLM/Maharaji. I guess I have still clung to many beliefs even though I KNOW where they came from. I always think it's important to examine ALL beliefs that you have, no matter where they come from. I don't think the beliefs you mentioned are necessarily wrong, even though they are associated in your mind with Guru Maharaji. I know a lot of exes (including me) who have problems because our belief in God or any kind of higher power or spirituality (and I don't think 'the force' is a bad example) is corrupted from being associated with Maharaji. Maharaji didn't make those ideas up, he just promulgated them, which is a lot different. I hope this isn't too difficult for you - I know it can be a hard thing to go through. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 10:48:03 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Just watched Long Beach Message: Maharaji didn't make those ideas up, he just promulgated them, which is a lot different. No, he didn't make them up. But someone did. And did THEY know what they were talking about? How? If you're going to clean house you might as well really do it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 10:57:02 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Just watched Long Beach Message: Jim, all I was saying is that Veep needs to find out for himself what HE believes in. Examining where those beliefs came from originally is good. By 'cleaning house', it sounds like that you mean replacing his beliefs with YOUR beliefs. You seem SO sure that the beliefs (and they ARE beliefs) that YOU have are the absolutely correct ones. Most of the rest of us on here don't feel that way - we are still searching. As a result, you sometimes end up sounding like an evangelist - like you know FOR SURE what's right for the rest of us. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 11:30:48 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Just watched Long Beach Message: Katie, That's an unfair way to argue. I never tell anyone what to think, I never tell anyone NOT to think. No, I don't think I know so much. I'm just trying to follow the argument. At this point, I don't see much reason to accept old, pre-scientific thinking and that's where our spirituality comes from. Argue with me, Katie, if you want. Don't just insult me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 11:53:15 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Just watched Long Beach Message: Jim, I am sorry that you feel insulted. That was not my intention, and my post was not meant as an insult. I am not sure how I could have said it differently: you DO sound sure of yourself when you talk about evolutionary psychology and the books people should read, and you sometimes do come off sounding evangelical because you mention evolutionary psychology and its associated literature so often. I am not as sure of my beliefs as you are (even though I've read Dawkins). As I've stated on here before, I don't know whether there is a god/higher power/force. I do think that associating Maharaji with the belief in a higher power is a problem for ex-premies (a.k.a. the 'spiritual rip-off'). You have apparently solved this problem by becoming an atheist and a believer in evolutionary psychology. I don't have a problem with that at all - I am glad that it works for you, but it just doesn't work for me. I have not solved the problem yet. Regards from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 12:06:33 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: lotuspower@aol.com To: JIim Subject: objective/subjective Message: C'mon Jim. Katie is too polite to be insulting. In fact, we probably should encourage her to let it out and be more vehement. Are you kidding us with more sarcastic commentary? I think our journeys away from M, like out journeys to him, are subjective ordeals with a mostly anecdotal value anyway. It's not going to be the same for everyone BUT what is important is that we make the trip away. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 13:16:48 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: Just watched Long Beach Message: Hi Jim, I don't think it's an unfair way to argue and I don't think Katie was really arguing. People have different ways of approaching what they believe, and drawing conclusions. If I've understood your method correctly, you have a clear notion of what truth and communication are, and you refer to the dictionary often as a reference point, to prevent hocus-pocus. I can respect that and to tell you the truth, it's really helped me a lot - just with my own life and sanity. You deserve a big thank you, sincerely. If I've understood you correctly about what we're doing here on the Forum, we're having a discussion, principally about maharaji but more generally about concluding what we know to be true, what we know to be false, and what we don't know. But I don't think that's what everyone is doing here. People are doing it to different degrees and some people don't seem to be doing it at all. I've often gleaned from your responses, that when people aren't adhering to the method of discussion which seeks to know what's true, that what is being said is invalid. Sometimes I agree with you and sometimes I think it's irrelevant. Here's where I think part of it pivots. I remember a while back you mentioned a scientific approach suggesting that when faced with competing ideas that have limited evidence, that the idea with the least chance of being true, be disregarded. I forget what it suggests doing with the other idea, but I imagine it would be to continue considering the idea that remains. At this point, it is a function of logic as much as science, as both points are technically possible, yet one will gain more attention. I can see the effectiveness of science and I can see the importance of relying on science, and not superstition, in forming conclusions about the world we live in. I think at least half, if not more, of the people who post here agree with that. I know that I do. So what's all the fuss? The main concern seems to thicken around God - is there a God, or anything like that (even a 'force' or some intelligent personality that created the universe and/or effects it's operation). I remember you proposed once that it must have originated from the misunderstanding of more primitive humans who jumped to conclusions about what caused events to happen and how these events were connected to their own actions (superstition, really). And that the current tendency of humans to give strong consideration to the existence of God or 'a force' stems also from superstition. I think there may be a lot of truth to that (meaning it is true in many cases, or true to a large extent when it exists). But there are other motivations. Part of the logic I see in your argument hinges on the suggestion that when two ideas are competing, that the one with more probability be given more, or even total, consideration. In fact, I remember you specifying recently that you weren't, in fact, an atheist, but a strong agnostic (something like that). And I assume this is because it hasn't been disproven that God or 'a force' exists, only that in logical consideration it isn't reasonable to assume their is such a thing. This is where I see you objecting to people... they give stronger consideration to the possibility, or even belief, of the existence of God or 'a force'. I'm concluding that you're suggesting they are still being superstitious and also unreasonable, in light of considering things intelligently. But this is where I think you are wrong in some cases (unfortunately I can't specify which ones). First, not everyone here is 'discussing' in the same way you are. I think you have suggested they aren't 'discussing' at all, and that as an approach to truth, their method is invalid. In some cases, I think their method is just different - the motivation behind their statements of God or 'a force' is a curiosity and wonder, that predominates despite the logic that says it is reasonable to move on. It isn't necessarily superstition but how high the stakes are in the game; a person just can't afford to get this one wrong. It isn't like an experiment in high school biology. People can't help but wonder aloud, and disregard the probability that despite what evidence suggests, it still isn't impossible that God or 'a force' exists. And that the idea is staggering, even if only remotely possible. I think the point here is that it isn't necessarily invalid for people to ponder like this, right here on this Forum. And it isn't necessarily an act of superstition or disregard for the truth, to communicate in that manner. You have sharply defined lines about truth, and I think many posters here agree with you, and even rely on you to help them see this, but I think some of those same people disagree with you about 'rational logic' (I think that's what you refer to). Sometimes these peoples just want to sit on the edge of their beds and wonder, and I think they'd get a giant big kick out of it, if once in a while you'd do it with them. I think the main disruption for these people (me included, sometimes) is 'Jesus, what if... what if.' And they want to be able to incorporate that into their decision-making process, not out of superstition, insincerity, but because it is more comfortable to momentarily scrap the logic they'd use to measure water-temperature when considering the largest question there is (of which, in my mind there is no sense... how'd the first fucking atom get here... and how the hell can science or logic ever answer that). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 15:13:07 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Rick Subject: God or no God? Message: 'the motivation behind their statements of God or 'a force' is a curiosity and wonder, that predominates despite the logic that says it is reasonable to move on.' Describes where I am at very well, Rick. I don't know WHAT to believe anymore or if there is even anything to believe in, though it just feels right to believe in something. I don't know why. Is it programming from youth? Is it that something really does exist? I am enjoying the consciousness thread below, so I hope people keep debating it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 20:20:05 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rick Subject: Just watched Long Beach Message: Rick, First, thanks for your long, thoughtful post. Really. Second, I never said that one should disregard the weaker of two competing theories. I'm not even sure what you're referring to. I wouldn't say that, in any event. It's all a matter of carefully categorizing probabilities and speculating accordingly. If you know you own the land outright, fee simple, done deal, no liens, sold, you might as well build as much as you want on it. If you're only 90 per cent sure, you might think twice before investing everything. If you're only twenty per cent sure, you'd be a fool to build much of anything. That's how I think of it. You have sharply defined lines about truth, and I think many posters here agree with you, and even rely on you to help them see this, but I think some of those same people disagree with you about 'rational logic' (I think that's what you refer to). Sometimes these peoples just want to sit on the edge of their beds and wonder, and I think they'd get a giant big kick out of it, if once in a while you'd do it with them. I think the main disruption for these people (me included, sometimes) is 'Jesus, what if... what if.' And they want to be able to incorporate that into their decision-making process, not out of superstition, insincerity, but because it is more comfortable to momentarily scrap the logic they'd use to measure water-temperature when considering the largest question there is (of which, in my mind there is no sense... how'd the first fucking atom get here... and how the hell can science or logic ever answer that). I think you unnecessarily ghettoize rationality. Wouldn't it be great to enjoy the full gusto of your enquiring spirit AND not compromise your exquisite rationality at the same time? I think you can. It just means that you can't speculate indiscriminitely. Your speculation has to have an eye on what we already know about life and the world. But maybe you think that knowledge itself is a burden. (That's small 'k', of course). I guess it could be. One COULD think that if only, for a few hours, one might ponder the moon without remembering that it's just an inanimate thingamujigger orbiting around the earth, that that would be exciting. Sure, it would be. But that kind of poetic fancy has no place in a discussion where people are really trying to understand what's what. When people talk about their search for truth here they never say 'hey, this is just a joke' or 'please don't take this seriously, I'm just fucking around'. No, people discuss things casually, I'm sure, but seriously all the same. There's no reason to compromise logic for that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Aug 17, 1998 at 14:54:21 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Rick Subject: Very well said, Rick nt Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Aug 17, 1998 at 14:48:58 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jim Subject: Just watched Long Beach Message: Jim, I'm amazed that you ask not to be insulted! (Not that I think Katie insulted you.) I think insult and ridicule share about the same meaning and you've certainly dished it out many times! You may not tell people what to think, but you often berate, insult and ridicule them for thinking or believing (well, stating, anyway) what they think! It is your self-confessed best tool for shaking them out of their beliefs, right? Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 16:30:22 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Just watched Long Beach Message: You seem SO sure that the beliefs (and they ARE beliefs) that YOU have are the absolutely correct ones. I never got this from Jim. The only impression I've ever got from Jim's arguments is that if there's no evidence that something exists, why believe it does? I think some people feel a need to believe in God because if He doesn't exist, than their deepest longings might go unfulfilled. Atheists don't attach these longings to a belief in God so they've got nothing to lose by concluding that God doesn't exist. This is my humble opinion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 12:35:03 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Just watched Long Beach Message: Katie, You missed the dance? It is worth fast forwarding to it, but beware-it is disturbing and embarrassing. It would be really funny if it weren't so darn disturbing. M starts getting all excited and sweaty while they are singing to him, it is bizarre. Then, he can't take it anymore and has to get up and do 'his thing'. You made a good point about those beliefs not being from Maharaji. I will have to keep that in mind. Thanks! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 13:06:04 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: VP Subject: Just watched Long Beach Message: VP, just curious. What did you think of the way M looked? When I saw that video, (I think it's the same one), after not seeing M for about 7 years, I was amazed at how he looked. He looked sort of the same, but his eyes were really puffy with big bags under them. As I have said before, his eyes were literally nothing but slits. I don't know if that's due to all the drinking he's done, or maybe that's just the way he aged. I have heard that since the 80s, the premies, or at least many of them, try to outdo each other and wear designer clothes to programs. I guess it's all part of the premie-program these days. I remember in the early 80s, M came to San Francisco and Berkeley to do introductory programs and it was emphasized how we ashramites, and every other premie involved in follow-up programs, should dress. As I commented at the time, the 'look' was very disingenuous and it seemed that the goal was to make us all look like young republicans. As you can imagine, this did not go over big in SF or Berkeley, where the programs took place. Maybe this is why only about 5 people came to any follow-up programs and all but a couple of those dropped out before receiving K. I think most people can tell on some level when people aren't being themselves. But it was also true that M didn't have much to say at these programs. He just kind of blathered about 'a beautiful place.' I brought a couple of co-workers to the programs. Afterwards, they NEVER mentioned it again. I guess they were too polite to tell me what they really thought. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 14:41:09 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: JW Subject: never looked worse! Message: He looked so bad, it was strange. He had really bad acne and greasy skin, though they were careful with the camera angles (don't fire anyone, Maharaji-they did the best they could with what they had-trust me!) He was so bloated and puffy-especially his face. His eyes, as you said, were practically closed shut. When I was watching it, I thought he looked stressed out, not as cool and collected as he does in other videos. He looked like he wanted to jump up and tell everyone to go to the devil, but was restraining himself. I've never seen him look worse, but he didn't really look that old to me. I think it was something else (?)Maybe it was age. I did think his daughter looked beautiful (though not underfed). She looked so young and pure and wholesome. I felt really sorry for her. I couldn't help but be drawn to her because I saw all of us when I looked into her eyes. I agree with you about the premies looking like young Republicans. It could have been a political rally if not for that dance and the gooey songs. They all were at their best for that program. It reminded me of the southern baptists on Sundays-snicker! The one time their true colors did show was during the dance song. They really let their 'devotional hair' down for a few minutes. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 14:15:07 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: VP Subject: Just watched Long Beach Message: It's funny how different each person's prospective can be. My take on the dance was M was hot from the lights, bored with the kitch of it all, felt obligated to his crowd to do his little dance, knew from previous video he looked like the klutz he is, and just got up and got it over with. Didn't he immediately exit the stage, then? Probably out of embarrassment. He did look like an ass. PS I like your interpretation better. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 14:24:50 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Just watched Long Beach Message: Yes, Gerry I think you are right, too. I don't know if he was bored or not, he looked too excited to me (but it could have been the heat from the lights, never thought about that). I do think he loved all of those people singing to him. He was smiling way too much not to. I don't think he loved that he had to get up, and dance though. It looked like he loved the idea of it, but not actually having to do it. He did feel obligated and he was VERY self conscious during it. (SO stiff) and as he was leaving(immediately afterwards as you said)he looked like he was thinking, 'Jesus, get me OUT of here!' Even he knew he looked like an ass. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 16:08:00 (EDT)
From: x Email: None To: VP Subject: God has acne? Message: So the guru has bad skin? as well as being obese? At the risk of appearing offensive to those here, who are concerned with their weight, the weight issue always bothered me. 'but he's manifested himself as a human, with all the flaws that go with being human.' I hear the party faithful cry. What a laugh, or maybe he is testing my concepts about societies preoccupation with looks? Maybe he should spend some of that CASH he's collected on a personal trainer or a new dermatologist. Try an alpha hydroxy facial BM, I'm sure you can afford it. If that doesnt help consider Accutane. I guess I'm too in my mind to appreciate an overweight, zitty, pompous, callous L.O.T.U. Maybe I'll be more open in my next life. I know I'm being insulting, but thats allowed here right? If people cant deal with this type of humor, they're supposed to go to the new forum lite, right? I don't want to be out of line here, really! x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 19:50:24 (EDT)
From: Sir Lowfat Cottage Cheese Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: x Subject: God has acne? Message: God, you're a cruel one x. And I'm still smarting from your deeply insensitive remarks about the colour scheme on the premie forum. I think I should rename it the premie notforum. Geddit! Since nobody posts there. Actually my aromatherapist friend has a cure for acne and I'll post it here tomorrow for the benefit of anyone who might be suffering from it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 12:29:07 (EDT)
From: x Email: None To: Sir Lowfat Cottage Cheese Subject: there's 2 x's Message: Sir, I wondered what you meant about me complaining about the color scheme on your forum. I just looked at it for the first time and discovered another 'x' wrote the disparaging remarks. I guess I deserve the confusion for picking such a generic, obvious pseudonym. This is actually the 3rd x I've come across, so to avoid any more mixups I'm going to change my name to, The Ex Formerly Known As x, just kidding. Actually I kind of liked being x, but its time to move on, so I'm planning a name change, when I think of the right one. I'l keep you posted. last entry as x, x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 11:11:09 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: x Subject: Forumlite Message: Hey x, On forumlite, we can slam ideas, people, whatever. No limitations there. We just try to cool it when it comes to ridiculing each other personally and name calling, because some people can't take that stuff. It inhibits their ability or desire to communicate. OK? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 11:43:49 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Fattening up forumlite? Message: Gerry, I'm afraid your comment that people are free 'slam' ideas, and people without limitations, albiet that you put in that sacred reiteration of the cardinal vow, 'Thou shall not ridicule', is going to get the chickens clucking like crazy. Who's guarding this coop, anyway? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 11:54:14 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Fox in the henhouse? Message: I'm tryin, Jim, I'm tryin. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998 at 13:36:30 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: x Subject: God is fat and has acne? Message: Dear x - I am one of the people who usually calls people on making fun of overweight people, people with acne, etc. It bothers me. I am not overweight (although I was as a teenager), but I do have some very overweight friends and some friends with acne, and I don't see either as a character flaw. I like them because they are good people. However, although I am not sure how premies feel about M now, when I was a premie, we worshipped M's physical form as well as his divine status. People used to rave in satsang about his 'golden body' and so forth. No one ever mentioned the fact that he was fat, greasy, and had acne - he was just SO beautiful. We bought millions of pictures of him and stuck them everywhere. So that's why I feel that it's OK for people to say 'Yes, Maharaji is fat and has pimples'. It's just like 'The emperor has no clothes', if you know that story. I don't care if M is unattractive or not - what I dislike is the denial by premies that he might be considered unattractive - that he is indeed fat, has zits, and so forth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Aug 13, 1998 at 13:33:08 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: God is fat and has acne? Message: I agree. I care a lot more about who a person is than what he/she looks like. I could care less if someone is overweight or has acne. I know you know how I feel about this. When a person proclaims he is God, a little critique to show that he is a mere human like the rest of us is not uncalled for. And JW asked... Anyway, Sir David was good enough to post a cure above. David, where is the cure for obesity? I still stand to lose a few lbs. myself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 19:27:41 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: VP Subject: I just wanna dance with you... Message: For example, I always deemed it important to put self-fullfillment and spirituality as a high priority. I have always seen God as some kind of energy within me (embarrassing, but like 'the force' in Star Wars). It was really scary tonight to realize how much of this probably came from DLM/Maharaji. I guess I have still clung to many beliefs even though I KNOW where they came from. It's funny VP reading this post, because I'm trying to work out where I'm at with my whole 'spirituality' at the moment too. I can still remember the experiences I had prior to discovering Maharaji which were amazing and gave me no doubt as to the existence of some kind of creative force (I don't use the term God as for me, it still carries with it all the patriarchal judgemental and oppressive connotations given to it by the Christian Church and other religions. I love the terms that many indigenous groups use, like the Native Americans for example, with names like Great Spirit and Great Mystery. ) Great Mystery pretty well says it all for me and doesn't conflict with my fascination for science and the continuing discovery of elements that may answer the 'chaos' of creation, things like fractal geometry and the Mandelbrot Set...but I digress... The thing now is though, I feel so poisoned from my time with the Big M (even it was only 4 years!) that I can't really move on or reacquaint myself with my previous beliefs until I rid myself of that toxic yuk. I also feel very shallow at the moment too, almost superficial. I was sitting in a meeting at work yesterday, doing the usual negotiation stuff, and just thought how I had again become the person I had been prior to getting on the 'spiritual path', in that I was just doing the whole 'workie-material-western' trip again. To me it always seemed to be such a noble path, that of shedding the stereotypical Western materialistic way and embracing the Eastern selfless spiritual life. That's why I find this whole thing so ironic. I thought Big M was the antithesis of everything I disliked about modern industrialised life, and yet he has ended up actually being the embodiment of all those exact same things! Truly, the greatest con of my life! Everyone looks so damn Westernized and civilized, but they go mad with anticipation when this guy MIGHT dance for them. It is truly the most bizarre thing I have ever seen. Then when he does wave his hands in the air, the crowd goes wild. I was embarrassed and uncomfortable watching that video. Hey VP, was that song they sang that 'I just wanna dance with you....ooooo, ooooo'. Usually it's sung by Kim (that Aussie chickie-babe) but did Daya sing this time? She does have an amazing voice. You know that whole little dance number, I have seen that so many times. It's become a staple at the end of the big events, and if Maharaji doesn't get up and dance, he'd really disappoint all the premies singing along. I think he knows that now too, that the premies have that expectation of him to dance. Maybe that's why he's looking so stressed! Ha-ha! I am so glad to find out that all you exes found all the songs as gooey as I did. I thought it was just because I was more into alternative music. Who actually likes that music? It's worse than Celine Dion (apologies to fans of hers here). I always found it amusing the whole clothes thing. My ex, being an ex-hippy with ex-Bob-Dylan-hair which he was told to cut off by Padarthanand in '74, still brings out his ONE suit, I mean it (he only has ever had one) for an event with the Big M. Always amused me.... Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 20:53:02 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: TD Subject: I just wanna dance with you... Message: Yes, TD, that was the song they sang. I don't know who was singing it. There were two women who sang back up for his daughter, I believe, but I don't know who they are. Your explanation of the song makes sense. If this is status quo for the programs that would explain why he did such a half hearted dance. You said, 'To me it always seemed to be such a noble path, that of shedding the stereotypical Western materialistic way and embracing the Eastern selfless spiritual life. That's why I find this whole thing so ironic. I thought Big M was the antithesis of everything I disliked about modern industrialised life, and yet he has ended up actually being the embodiment of all those exact same things!' This sounds so familiar. I think that is why when premies argue that maharaji's materialism isn't an issue I disagree. Maharaji is the embodiment of materialism and so is the organization. Buy videos, buy chocolate bars, buy sarongs, etc. That is NOT what I want to subscribe to. I like things as much as the next person. I know that in the modern age, we are going to be consumers to some degree whether we like it or not. I don't see where materialism fits in with enlightenment, our real selves, meaning in our lives or whatever one cares to call it. To me the blatant materialism of Maharaji is shallow and since you don't care for it, I would say that you aren't shallow. I think you are honest and brave. I can tell from what you wrote above that there is some real depth to your character that was there before M and now afterwards, too. Leaving a cult cannot take that away from you. Thanks for that great response. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 23:06:28 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: VP Subject: I just wanna dance with you... Message: Thanks very much for that VP. Your kind words were much appreciated! Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 22:14:42 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji gets dusted by pope Message: This in on the AP newswire: 'Holy high-tech! The pope will begin broadcasting live audio and video of some of his religious services across the Internet. The Vatican announced that Catholics around the world will soon be able to watch Pope John Paul II recite his Angelus prayers on Sundays. The church's broadcast debut begins Saturday, when Catholics celebrate the Feast of the Assumption. The Vatican on Monday called it ``another sign of the Vatican's effort to promote its image in the world of modern social communication.'' Catholics in the United States typically see the pope on television only at Christmas and Easter. ``This will give Catholics in the U.S. the opportunity to see the holy father live at least weekly, if not twice a week,'' said David Early, a spokesman for the U.S. Catholic Conference in Washington. ``Historically, the church has always been quick to take advantage of the technology available to spread its message.'' People can watch the broadcasts using popular software that can be downloaded free from RealNetworks Inc., a Seattle-based company. A link on the Vatican's Web site, www.vatican.va, will launch the software and start the broadcast. ``This is pretty important. The holy father does recognize the importance of modern technology,'' said the Rev. Gregory Chamberlin, a pastor at St. Benedict's Catholic Church in southwestern Indiana. ``He recognizes that, by offering his prayers and locutions over the Internet, he'll be able to reach a worldwide audience that he wouldn't be able to reach any other way,'' said Chamberlin, a former teacher at St. Meinrad Seminary in Indiana, one of the last remaining Catholic seminaries. The broadcasts will be organized by the Vatican's Television Center and Vatican Radio. The television center will provide live feeds of all the pope's public celebrations and an archive of the weekly religious magazine, ``Octavia Dies.'' Vatican Radio will broadcast programs on its four FM stations and an archive of the pope's meditations during Sunday's prayers. ``Because RealAudio is all over the world, they should have millions of people accessing the pontiff's message,'' said Alex Alben, a vice president at RealNetworks. Earlier this summer, the National Conference of Catholic Bishops complained about the ``dark side'' of the Internet and other media, including television and video games. And earlier this year, more than 50 Catholic cardinals and bishops from 15 countries met to grapple with technical, educational and moral aspects of the Internet. That meeting was organized after the pope said church leaders weren't as knowledgeable about new technologies as they should be.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 13:21:35 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maharaji control freak Message: He will NEVER release his videos on Internet I bet. He's into having His OWN network, via satellite, broadcasting videos from Visions ! I wonder if he's going to have it. I doubt it! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 14:54:07 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: The Maharaji Channel Message: 'Hello, cable operator? Yes, this is VP. I'd like to order The Maharaji Channel, please. How much? No thanks. I'll take Court TV instead.' WHAT would be on the thing? Just his videos? Who would advertise? Elan Vital Chocolate company? The advertisers on Mili's site? Or would it be like PBS and every season there would be a major telethon with a number to call in your pledges. JM, this is hysterical. I know you aren't serious this time... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 16:24:33 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: VP Subject: The Maharaji Channel Message: I AM SERIOUS! There will be ONLY videos. Visions spend millions to send videotapes and masters everywhere. They'll then need only to have a channel on some satellites, these are quite unexpensive, and have a broadcasting studio somewhere. Of course the transmission will be coded, and you'll need the device to uncode. I heard he had that project, technically very feasible, and totally megalomaniac of course! The community receiving the videos will of course pay a monthly fee, and very likely buy the receiving device. You have to understand something: there are not that many premies, and they are scattered everywhere in thousands of small communities. The operation to circulate and send the video tapes everywhere is huge and energy consuming I guess. And there are thousands and thousands of videos tapes everywhere Satgooroooo has NO control on! Look what happen on those crazy web sites managed by exes! Could you imagine me or you having some of m's videos on our web sites? He is having a headache with this I tell you! And when all these wonderful dedicated premies are busy with the tapes, they don't make much money for their beloved gooorooo. You see ? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Aug 11, 1998 at 21:10:55 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: I see Message: AHHHH. It won't be available on cable :)Wouldn't he make a lot more money just selling tapes? Maybe not. 'He is having a headache with this I tell you' Maybe that is why he looked so lousy in the Long Beach video-too much stress!? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |