Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 21

From: Aug 4, 1998

To: Aug 18, 1998

Page: 5 Of: 5



Swamiji -:- Mind and beyond -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:41:27 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Scam, Keith -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:50:20 (EDT)
____Swamiji -:- Scam, Keith -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 23:01:51 (EDT)
______Swamiji -:- scepticism -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 23:04:56 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Okay, then scram -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 23:21:04 (EDT)
________Swamiji -:- We cannot scram -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 23:50:53 (EDT)
__________Jerry -:- Shirley's quote -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 09:58:02 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- Shirley's quote -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 10:18:58 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- Shirley's quote -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 11:47:31 (EDT)
________________Robyn -:- Shirley's quote -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:42:32 (EDT)
______________Jerry -:- Shirley's quote -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 15:35:46 (EDT)
________________Robyn -:- Shirley's quote -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 16:17:46 (EDT)
________Robyn -:- Okay, then scram -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 09:11:20 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- nt? -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 09:04:37 (EDT)
______Katie -:- nt = no text -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 09:41:14 (EDT)
________Robyn -:- nt = no text -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 10:15:18 (EDT)
__Brian -:- I mind and you've gone beyond -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 23:48:58 (EDT)
____Keith -:- I mind and you've gone beyond -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 04:10:06 (EDT)
______Mickey the Pharisee -:- Definitions -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:17:10 (EDT)
________Mike -:- Definitions -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:21:02 (EDT)
__________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Definitions -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 15:31:16 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- Definitions -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 15:57:41 (EDT)
______________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Definitions -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 16:04:03 (EDT)
________________larkin -:- Arti -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:10:27 (EDT)
__________________Mike -:- Arti -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:23:51 (EDT)
__________________Robyn -:- Arti -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:55:08 (EDT)
________________Robyn -:- Definitions -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:50:07 (EDT)
__________________Mike -:- Definitions -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 18:47:59 (EDT)
____________________Katie -:- to Mike and Robyn -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:13:25 (EDT)
______________________Robyn -:- to Mike and Robyn -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:21:30 (EDT)
________________________Mike -:- to Robyn & Katie -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:12:47 (EDT)
________g's mom -:- LOL nt -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:56:18 (EDT)
__________Robyn -:- LOL nt -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:59:36 (EDT)
____________G's mom -:- LOL nt -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 23:19:08 (EDT)
______________Robyn -:- LOL nt -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 10:00:20 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- Keith -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:35:19 (EDT)
________VP -:- Katie is great! -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 01:10:33 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Wha'ts with this 'love' thing? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 09:51:17 (EDT)
__________Robyn -:- Wha'ts with this 'love' thing? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 10:15:52 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Okay, okay, but just one thing -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 10:49:31 (EDT)
______________Robyn -:- Okay, okay, but just one thing -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 11:26:42 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- Okay, okay, but just one thing -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 11:44:18 (EDT)
__________________Robyn -:- I'm sincere-nt -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 12:38:19 (EDT)
________________Selena -:- I was taught the same thing. -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:53:06 (EDT)
__________________Robyn -:- I was taught the same thing. -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 16:03:18 (EDT)
____________________Jim -:- Now knock that out! -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 16:39:03 (EDT)
______________________Gail -:- We're all LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, -:- Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 14:50:24 (EDT)
________________________Katie -:- We're all LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, -:- Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 18:03:44 (EDT)
____________________Katie -:- I was taught the same thing. -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 16:56:05 (EDT)
______________________Robyn -:- I was taught the same thing. -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 19:10:04 (EDT)
________________________Katie -:- Lutherans off topic -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 19:20:06 (EDT)
__________________________Robyn -:- Lutherans off topic -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 06:20:23 (EDT)
________________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- I was taught the same thing. -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 00:29:39 (EDT)
__________________________Robyn -:- I was taught the same thing. -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 06:27:25 (EDT)
______Francis Warren -:- Hope you like your One-a-day -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 23:45:03 (EDT)
________Gerry -:- Hope you like your One-a-day -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:51:49 (EDT)
____Jim -:- I mind and you've gone beyond -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:40:28 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- I mind and you've gone beyond -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:56:46 (EDT)
________Katie -:- me too -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 18:21:31 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- A splendid.... -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 18:58:22 (EDT)
____________Katie -:- A splendid.... -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:16:48 (EDT)
__________Robyn -:- me too -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:29:49 (EDT)

Nigel -:- Astrology:an experiment -help! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:51:18 (EDT)
__Nigel -:- or least innacurate...! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 19:38:40 (EDT)
__Sir David -:- Can't help but what about this -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 09:12:33 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Hey, I want out -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 11:58:54 (EDT)
______Becky -:- Astrolololology -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 14:46:11 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Astrolololology -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 14:58:40 (EDT)
__________Sir David -:- Starry starry night -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 22:03:12 (EDT)
__________Carol -:- I'm impressed Jim! -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:56:07 (EDT)
________Robyn -:- Astrolololology -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 15:03:51 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Astrolololology -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 16:13:09 (EDT)
____________Gerry -:- Astrolololology -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 16:59:05 (EDT)
______________Katie -:- Thanks, Jim and Rick -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:31:33 (EDT)
______________Selena (brain dead) -:- Astrolololology -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:38:08 (EDT)
________________Gerry -:- Astrolololology -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 16:04:25 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- Astrolololology -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:41:17 (EDT)
______________Carol -:- Geminis -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 01:00:29 (EDT)
__________RT -:- Cobol-ology -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 11:05:27 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- Cobol-ology -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 19:30:47 (EDT)
______nigel -:- Hey, don't stifle sceptical -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 16:50:18 (EDT)
____Nigel -:- You're absolutely right, Sir -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 15:56:21 (EDT)
______Mike -:- What is a ....... -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 16:15:52 (EDT)
________nigel -:- Bandicoots -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 16:54:37 (EDT)
__Selena -:- Astrology:an experiment -help! -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:23:41 (EDT)
____Selena -:- oops - I made a mistake -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:32:11 (EDT)
____Jim -:- You got that right -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 14:31:42 (EDT)
______Selene (it's official) -:- You got that right -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 17:51:59 (EDT)
________Nigel -:- Nope, you aquarians are too bo -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 18:46:16 (EDT)
__________Selene -:- boring -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 20:54:44 (EDT)
____________nigel -:- not boring -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 22:02:03 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- boring -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 22:48:28 (EDT)
______Jim -:- You got that right -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 19:03:13 (EDT)

Becky -:- Black and white -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:41:51 (EDT)
__M.b -:- Black and white -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:19:05 (EDT)
____MB -:- Hope -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 14:25:47 (EDT)
______Becky -:- the above is from me -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 14:28:01 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Black and white -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:03:05 (EDT)
____Jim -:- One account -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 16:29:24 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Another -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 16:44:49 (EDT)
______Becky -:- One account -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 14:24:37 (EDT)
__Mike -:- Black and white -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:40:19 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Freudian interpretation? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:43:17 (EDT)
______Mike -:- Freudian interpretation? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 16:10:18 (EDT)
________Becky -:- Yes Mike I agree -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 14:23:17 (EDT)

Mel Bourne -:- M.B. is not me -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 06:06:09 (EDT)
__Gerry -:- Apologies to Mel Bourne -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 10:19:00 (EDT)
____Mel Bourne -:- Apologies to Mel Bourne -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 10:47:34 (EDT)
______Katie -:- Apologies to Mel Bourne -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 10:55:48 (EDT)
________M.B -:- Apologies to Mel Bourne -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:22:33 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- Apologies to Mel Bourne -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:35:04 (EDT)
____________M.B -:- Apologies to Mel Bourne -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:44:53 (EDT)
______________Mike -:- Apologies to Mel Bourne -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:50:55 (EDT)
________________M.B -:- Apologies to Mel Bourne -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:04:43 (EDT)
______Becky -:- Misjudging -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:44:35 (EDT)
________Becky -:- BM MB? OH NO! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:48:16 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- What, me insult? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:07:33 (EDT)
________Gerry -:- Misjudging -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:57:40 (EDT)
__________Carol -:- Hi...Tape -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:01:29 (EDT)
____________Gerry -:- Hi...Tape -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 16:52:36 (EDT)
______________Carol -:- Hi...Tape -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:10:26 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- THAT'S DISGUSTING!!! -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 10:59:34 (EDT)
________________Gerry -:- lol nt! -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 17:40:59 (EDT)
__JW -:- M.B. is not me -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 19:40:54 (EDT)
__Nigel -:- MB IS KEITH! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 19:59:21 (EDT)
____Jim -:- MB IS KEITH! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:12:49 (EDT)
______nigel -:- MB IS KEITH! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:51:45 (EDT)
________Robyn -:- MB IS KEITH! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:06:57 (EDT)
________Jim -:- MB IS KEITH! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:12:16 (EDT)
__________nigel -:- MB IS KEITH! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:16:35 (EDT)
____Katie -:- MB IS KEITH! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:18:25 (EDT)
______Runamok -:- Who cares who it is -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:22:41 (EDT)
________nigel -:- What motivates indifference? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:30:22 (EDT)
________Katie -:- Who cares who it is -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:31:09 (EDT)
__________Nigel -:- Who cares who it is -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:35:16 (EDT)
____________Katie -:- Who cares who it is -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:48:55 (EDT)
______________Nigel -:- Call that a pat? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:20:52 (EDT)
______________Gerry -:- Excuse me... -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:25:16 (EDT)
________________Katie -:- Gerry's right -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:30:03 (EDT)
__________________Carol -:- And I was wrong -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:29:16 (EDT)
____________________Katie -:- me too -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:54:28 (EDT)
________________Rick -:- Excuse me... -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 00:47:40 (EDT)
__________________Robyn -:- Excuse me... -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 09:17:16 (EDT)
________Robyn -:- Who cares who it is -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:36:47 (EDT)
__________Runamok -:- Who it is -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 00:53:12 (EDT)
__Nigel -:- MB is definitely Keith! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:12:43 (EDT)
____Jim -:- MB is definitely Keith! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:14:32 (EDT)
______Nigel -:- MB is definitely Keith! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:23:27 (EDT)
________Carol -:- I don't think so... -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:53:27 (EDT)
__________Niegl -:- Baffling me again! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:57:34 (EDT)
____________Carol -:- Baffling me again! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:32:22 (EDT)
__________Katie -:- I don't think so... -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:02:55 (EDT)

M.B -:- Anger therapy -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 04:35:28 (EDT)
__Mike -:- Anger therapy -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:31:27 (EDT)
____M.B -:- Anger therapy -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:28:54 (EDT)
______Mike -:- You need - Anger therapy -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:14:18 (EDT)
________Carol -:- Mike You missed a joke cue -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:28:02 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- Mike You missed a joke cue -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:00:25 (EDT)
________M.B -:- You need - Anger therapy -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:44:26 (EDT)
__________M.B -:- You need - Anger therapy -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:52:19 (EDT)
____________Carol -:- You need - Anger therapy -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:09:30 (EDT)
______________M.B -:- You need - Anger therapy -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:15:17 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- Anger therapy -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:48:05 (EDT)
____M.B -:- Anger therapy -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:04:17 (EDT)
______Carol -:- Katie, who did you say...? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:11:43 (EDT)
________m.b -:- Katie, who did you say...? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:31:14 (EDT)
______carol -:- What is your name? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:25:25 (EDT)
________M.B -:- What is your name? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:41:35 (EDT)
______Mike -:- Anger therapy -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:34:56 (EDT)
________M.B -:- Anger therapy -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:57:38 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- Anger therapy -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:01:50 (EDT)
________M.b -:- Anger therapy -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:22:27 (EDT)
______nigel -:- Anger therapy -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:19:29 (EDT)
__JW -:- Pot Calls Kettle Black -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:56:02 (EDT)
____Mike -:- Pot Calls Kettle Black -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 16:05:22 (EDT)
____Mike -:- Pot Calls Kettle Black -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 16:55:00 (EDT)

M.B -:- Fuckwits are fuckwits. -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 21:57:43 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Fuckwits are fuckwits. -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 22:05:25 (EDT)
____M.B -:- Fuckwits are fuckwits. -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 22:20:18 (EDT)
______JW -:- M has Minuscule Content -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 03:30:23 (EDT)
________M.B -:- M has Minuscule Content -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 06:42:22 (EDT)
__________CD -:- M has Minuscule Content -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:49:21 (EDT)
__________JW -:- M has Minuscule Content -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:54:54 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- m.b. can't read -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:35:23 (EDT)
____Gerry -:- Fuckwits are fuckwits. -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 22:22:02 (EDT)
______M.B -:- Fuckwits are fuckwits. -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:41:46 (EDT)
__Runamok -:- ungratefulness is............. -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 22:17:33 (EDT)
____M.B -:- ungratefulness is............. -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 22:33:19 (EDT)
______Runamok -:- ungratefulness is............. -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:53:00 (EDT)
________M.B -:- ungratefulness is............. -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:13:11 (EDT)
__________Runamok -:- X-files -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 01:38:41 (EDT)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- Fuckwits are fuckwits. -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:25:08 (EDT)
____M.B -:- Fuckwits are fuckwits. -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 03:35:06 (EDT)
______x -:- get a life -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 04:34:35 (EDT)
________M.B -:- get a life -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 06:01:33 (EDT)
______Mickey the Pharisee -:- F***wits are f***wits. -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:18:58 (EDT)
________M.B -:- F***wits are f***wits. -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:51:03 (EDT)
__________M.B -:- F***wits are f***wits. -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:53:54 (EDT)
__eb -:- M.B--I'm so frustrated!!! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:03:16 (EDT)
____M.B -:- M.B--I'm so frustrated!!! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:11:16 (EDT)
____Jim -:- M.B--I'm so frustrated!!! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:05:39 (EDT)
______M.B -:- M.B--I'm so frustrated!!! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:17:49 (EDT)
________Mike -:- M.B--I'm so frustrated!!! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 17:40:26 (EDT)
______eb -:- Thank you, Jim -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 17:43:31 (EDT)


Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:41:27 (EDT)
From: Swamiji
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mind and beyond
Message:
Mind is very powerful . And to quote Tolkien ,
'do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle
and quick to anger '.
What could be an intepretation of this quote ?
Perhaps , that one should not presume to know what others know
without due authority .
The proud mind may cling to its beliefs with firm tenacity .
And refuse to entertain ideas that are foreign to its
experience or understanding.
The mind may assume that others should play the game of life
according to its own dictates and designs.
And such a proud mind may indeed meddle in those affairs
that are outside of its realised territory.
The mind is drugged with so many contaminated ideas .
Most of these ideas are borrowed. Mind is experiencing
a hallucination. Dreams within dreams.
Mind could be the lighthearted friend of SELF ; if ?
Confusion reigns and yet mind struts about as if so
wise. The step out could be to begin to laugh at our own
folly . TEE HEE HA HA !
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:50:20 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Swamiji
Subject: Scam, Keith
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 23:01:51 (EDT)
From: Swamiji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Scam, Keith
Message:
Fortunately Jim , the real light of truth does penetrate
in and enlighten out .
Your skeptism will lead you to the truth .
You are not home yet. Still a way to go . But growth
occurs anyway . And TRUTH is bigger than your ideas ; and
mine . Holy may also mean the holes in our earthbound
materialism that allows the subtle rays of a finer
reality to enter. Windows of perception .
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 23:04:56 (EDT)
From: Swamiji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: scepticism
Message:
Excuse me for the mis-spelling !
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 23:21:04 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Swamiji
Subject: Okay, then scram
Message:
Keith,

You exemplify the folly of new age thinking. You have no mental discipline, no morals, no courage of your convictions. In fact, you have no convictions. Here's how a U.S. court summarized this aspect of new age thinking:

(1) Denial of Logic. By claiming that logic and rational deliberation, are inadequate for, and oftentimes a roadblock to, achieving New Age enlightenment, some New Agers are making a metaphysical claim about the nature of knowing reality itself, namely, that achieving this knowledge is fundamentally non- logical or non- rational. For example, Shirley MacLaine writes,

'If people insist upon remaining within their 'logical' belief systems they are safe within their own perceived reality, and thus are safe within the position of power they hold, whatever that power might be. They will not change themselves or grow into an expanded awareness of themselves.'


So, thus you've tricked people here, wasted their time and basically contributed nothing. You've thrown little baby tantrums and insulted everyone. 'LET THE DEBATE BEGIN!!' But there's no talking with you. You've made a shield of your embarrasment and that blocks out all reason. I say the same thing I said when you signed off shaken and ashamed of the fool you'd made of yourself last week, 'good riddance'.

Of course the only reason you'll keep changing names here is to get people to give you a little attention. That's pathetic, man.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 23:50:53 (EDT)
From: Swamiji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: We cannot scram
Message:
'If people insist upon remaining within their 'logical' belief systems they are safe within their own perceived reality, and thus are safe within the position of power they hold, whatever that power might be. They will not change themselves or grow into an expanded awareness of themselves.'
( quote ; Shirley Maclaine ).

I agree with the above quotation .

Jim , one way or another you and I
co-inhabit the same planet .

We cannot scram .
We are a part of the miracle .

Your analysis of my behavior and motivations are quite wrong.
Take to heart Shirley's quotation above and you may yet
realise that heart and mind are meant to be lovers of each
other .

At least try debating again ; instead of grasping onto
yesterdays drama's ; as seems your way .
You don't like me ; but you really don't know me .
Swamiji
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 09:58:02 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Swamiji
Subject: Shirley's quote
Message:
'If people insist upon remaining within their 'logical' belief systems they are safe within their own perceived reality, and thus are safe within the position of power they hold, whatever that power might be. They will not change themselves or grow into an expanded awareness of themselves.'( quote ; Shirley Maclaine ).

I agree with the above quotation.


Do you really agree with this quotation? It seems to me that Shirley is suggesting that we abandon our own good common sense, and venture into a world of unknowns beyond our personal experience. This to me is a call to fantasy, not unlike M's claims that only by his grace can K manifest.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 10:18:58 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: Shirley's quote
Message:
Dear Jerry,
Hi, don't think I've posted to you yet. I do believe Shirley's quote but think there is a balance between that side of me and the logical side which work together to sift through all the things that come by me. I just recently found out about something called psi that does use intuition and the paranormall with logic. Just what I've felt in my life. I am just learning about it and won't have time to really get into it until the end of the month.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 11:47:31 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Shirley's quote
Message:
I do believe Shirley's quote but think there is a balance between that side of me and the logical side which work together to sift through all the things that come by me.

You actually believe this idiocy, Robyn? Too bad for you.

LOVE,

Jim
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:42:32 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Shirley's quote
Message:
Jim,
Good thing I don't live my life to please you, eh?
LOVE!!!!!
Robyn

Just wanted you to know that I don't omit Dear and Love from my posts to you because of bad feelings but because I believe it irritates you. :)
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 15:35:46 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Shirley's quote
Message:
Hi, don't think I've posted to you yet.

Hi Robyn. I think that IS your first post to me. I used to feel left out because all these 'Love, Robyn' were going everywhere but to me. Now I'm tingling all over.

Love,
Jerry

PS- I thought a lot before posting this. I hope it doesn't sound TOO stupid.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 16:17:46 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: Shirley's quote
Message:
Dear Jerry,
Sounds dear not stupid and I am just smiling.
Love you too Jerry!,
Robyn :)
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 09:11:20 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Okay, then scram
Message:
Dear Keith and Jim,
I also believe in your quote, but that probably doesn't suprise(sp) either of you! I like Keith but some of your posts do concern me. It does seem like you have a lot of anger and I wonder if you feel like you are gaining any thing personally from being here and being in conflict. Maybe it helps you clarify you position as you do seem to flip flop on your feelings for M. Please take care of yourself Keith and say hi to Mirabi for me!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 09:04:37 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: nt?
Message:
Jim,
Carol wrote a post to me and all it said was 'nt'. I thought it was a mistake and moved on but here it is again. What does it mean please?
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 09:41:14 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: nt = no text
Message:
nt (It means you have said everything you want to say in the title. You do need to put something in the body to be able to post the message, but it will keep people from having to open it up and look at it).
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 10:15:18 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: nt = no text
Message:
Dear Katie,
Oh.
Thanks,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 23:48:58 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Keith
Subject: I mind and you've gone beyond
Message:
Mind is very powerful.

Yes, but software is even more so.

When you want to participate in discussions instead of simply posting as often as you can under as many names as you are capable of thinking up, let me know. I thought you had moved well beyond this sort of childish behavior - that you left it and Vacol behind. But here we are again.

You are now on the One-A-Day plan. Choose your words carefully. You only get 1000 characters. Let the debate be brief.

And to re-quote Tolkien, 'do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and quick to anger'.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 04:10:06 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Brian and everyone
Subject: I mind and you've gone beyond
Message:
AUTHORITARIANISM
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:17:10 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Keith
Subject: Definitions
Message:
AUTHORITARIANISM = Not letting Keith post whatever he wants.
HYPOCRISY = Disagreeing with whatever Keith posts.
DIALECTIC = Keith rambling in an almost coherent manner.
SPIRITUAL DISCOURSE = Keith rambling in an incoherent manner.

All definitions are from 'Vacol's Vacuous Vocabulary Video,
Volume V.'
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:21:02 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Definitions
Message:
Mickey: Now THAT was a good one! BTW, are you really a priest and if so, what denomination?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 15:31:16 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mike
Subject: Definitions
Message:
Yes, Mike, I really am a priest, ordained in apostolic succession in the Episcopal Church of the United States of America.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 15:57:41 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Definitions
Message:
Thanks Mickey, I really was interested. I've found your posts to be very thoughtful and interesting, to say the least. The wife of a very close friend of mine is becoming very involved in the episcopal church. I'm not exactly sure, but I think she is becoming a priest(?), too. I'm not sure if female priests are allowed (pardon my ignorance), but I thought that was what she was doing. I know she has had to do ALOT of schooling for it. Anyway, thanks for responding so quickly.

BTW, I REALLY LIKED your Keith definitions. A sense of humor, you have! One other thing: you mentioned that 'larkin' did an arti parody. I can't seem to locate it. Do you have any idea what the timeframe was? Thanks, pahdna.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 16:04:03 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mike
Subject: Definitions
Message:
Hi Mike,
Yes, there are many women priests in my church, and some women bishops, too!
I think that Larkin did his thang early in the year, maybe January or so, but it may have even been last year around Xmas. Anyone else remember when Larkin's Arti parody happened?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:10:27 (EDT)
From: larkin
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Arti
Message:
Check out: http://www.redcrow.demon.co.uk/barkin.html
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:23:51 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: larkin
Subject: Arti
Message:
Thank YOU!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:55:08 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: larkin
Subject: Arti
Message:
Dear Larkin,
Duh, didn't even think of it. I'll write down the URL and save it on my computer at home!
Love,
Robyn

Just out there lurking are we?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:50:07 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Definitions
Message:
Dear Mike,
It was after January because I was already posting when Larkin posted that, I'd say March or later, maybe Feb. Good luck, I need to get back to the archives or that web wizard will have my head!!
Love,
Robyn

Hey, Mike are you Mike Appelman?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 18:47:59 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Definitions
Message:
Thanks for the info Robyn. Larkin put the url on a post. It's pretty funny stuff. I like parody. No, I'm not Mike Appelman. I'll send you an email Robyn.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:13:25 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: to Mike and Robyn
Message:
Hi Robyn - it's MARK Appleman, not Mike. He is in the Journeys entries, along with his e-mail address.

Hi Mike - I need your e-mail address to keep on hand for occasions such as yesterday. Is it OK if I get it from Robyn, if and when I need it?

Thanks,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:21:30 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: to Mike and Robyn
Message:
Dear Katie,
OK with me if it's OK with Mike. I just added him to my quick address list and he is now the newest addition to the 25 ex's I email! I am such a social butterfly! Of course only some of them are regular correspondence and I think one of them is in there twice as themselves and an alias, hmmmmm....
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:12:47 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: to Robyn & Katie
Message:
Of course it's alright with me if Robyn gives you my email address. I just ask that it not be given out unless I say it's ok. Thanks You for asking. Yesterday was a hoot, wasn't it?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:56:18 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: LOL nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:59:36 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: g's mom
Subject: LOL nt
Message:
Dear g's mom,
LOL = ?
I am not acrynom savy! It took me weeks to figure out BTW when I was first here but then I wasn't comfortable enough looking like a doult to ask, now the cat's out of the bag long ago so I don't care!
Love,
Robyn

Love Jerry too!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 23:19:08 (EDT)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: LOL nt
Message:
LOL is laughing out loud
There is also rolling on the floor laughing out loud rotflol
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 10:00:20 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: G's mom
Subject: LOL nt
Message:
Dear G's mom,
Thanks, I seem to have a mental block about these acrynoms but I am trying. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:35:19 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Keith
Subject: Keith
Message:
Dear Keith,
Hey Keith, you know I like you so I have to push myself here a bit to ask you about a post I just discovered.

Katie , you are such a gopie . such a sorry excuse for an individual. you worship idiots . you are brainwashed. you tippie toe about ; careful to not upset those brain-damaged mother fuckers . you are supporting the losers. perhaps it would be cheaper to get group psychiatry : you and the deranged ones you adore so much.

Keith, This doesn't sound like the loving person I see in you. As I posted to you as MB before I knew who you were, you seem SO angry. Katie is a sweet heart. I love her also and I will stand up to protect her if I know someone has hurt her. BTW I am also a Brian gopie! :) I can like and love all of you, even Jim but don't tell him that. Shhhhh.

Keith, if you like please email me.
Love you,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 01:10:33 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Katie is great!
Message:
I am worried about Keith. I suspect he may have some serious problems and I hope that he gets the help he needs.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 09:51:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Wha'ts with this 'love' thing?
Message:
Keith, This doesn't sound like the loving person I see in you.

Robyn,

Does this word 'love' have any meaning to you? You seem to use it like some all-purpose verb/noun cleanser. Is that just because you're a really loving person and you just kind of love everybody you talk to? Just curious.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 10:15:52 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Wha'ts with this 'love' thing?
Message:
Jim,
I think it started just because it is how I learned to write a letter in Catholic grade school and they were very picky. I think when I started posting I would you 'Take care' or 'Take good care' and as I got more comfortable I started using Love. Yes the word means A LOT to me and if you've noticed people generally respond to me in a positive way. Except for you. Do you realize that? Just curious.
There are differing degrees of love you know and just because I use the word it doesn't mean I am drooling love goo here at job1. It is a greeting. I love Katie, Rick, Brian, Gerry and on and on because they have become more than just posts on the forum and then there are those like Mike and Jerry who I have recently 'met' I can easily write dear and love to them because it is how I was taught to write a letter and because they haven't shown me any reason to not trust them. They have the benifit of doubt, start out with a clean slate.
I have always been the type of person to be to open and honest at the start and I think your inquiry has to do with that. What or who is there here who would cause me to withold my good feelings toward people in general. I am actually trying to get a bit more skepticism going in my life as I know I am to trusting. On the other hand I am not going to try to LOVE YOU because you don't appreciated the comradary in that exchange with me. I harbor no grudges toward you and leave you out because it is what you want. I DO NOT force myslef or my beliefs on you or anyone else. I am who I am and write from my heart, not the premie heart thing but from a place of caring.
I think it would be so good for you to just try to accept me in my differences from you. I really have my doubts that you are capable of that but I think it would be good for you. I, unlike Keith and Bobby can, have and will again just ignore you if you start with me. You little edgy posts to me in the last few days were fine if not happily recieved but I WILL NOT get into a going no where argument/debate with you.
Clear the deck and get your birthday hats out! I am who I am and you can accept me or leave me alone. I respect your not being intrested in my caring fine, try to find and use just a tad of respect for me, please.
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 10:49:31 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Okay, okay, but just one thing
Message:
it is how I was taught to write a letter

You were taught to sign all your letters 'love'? By who?

Don't freak. I'm just asking.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 11:26:42 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Okay, okay, but just one thing
Message:
Jim,
It is to bad but not suprizing that your only comment to my post that you asked for, was about who fucking taught me to write love at the end of a letter, especially since I already told you! Nuns in Catholic school. I had all subject, math, english, spelling etc including Italian in Kindergarden and a full school day which was not the norm back then. We had to hold chalk in 1 certain way with our left arm behind our backs, they were very controling, that is all. Practice letters include, dear and love or sincerely for business letters.
I can't help but see a similarity to your answers to me or non answers as the case may be and the way premies do that to you and others. I don't mean to say you don't make sense, you do have that going for you but the way you selectivly ingore major points to comment on the drivel. Why is that, I bet it has something to do with how much you were like these premies when you were one, eh?
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 11:44:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Okay, okay, but just one thing
Message:
Why is that, I bet it has something to do with how much you were like these premies when you were one, eh?

No. I mean yes. I mean, I'm not sure if you're being sincere. I'm not even sure if I'M being sincere. Don't worry about it.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 12:38:19 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: I'm sincere-nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:53:06 (EDT)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I was taught the same thing.
Message:
Robyn, the town I grew up in in western Mass. was very Catholic (Irish and Polish) and we were taught to sign any personal correspondece with Love, and any business letters with Sincerely,

I had a hard time breaking out of starting a letter Dear and ending it with Love but it started to embarrass me to write that so I stopped. It says a lot about me and a lot about you that you are comfortable with it. But it doesn't mean you are wrong and I thought your answer to Jim was very articulate and right on the mark. Good for you.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 16:03:18 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Selena
Subject: I was taught the same thing.
Message:
DEAR Selena,
Thanks for that sweetie.
LOVE YOU,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 16:39:03 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Now knock that out!
Message:
DEAR Selena,
Thanks for that sweetie.
LOVE YOU,
Robyn


Oh Lord, why hast thou forsaken me?
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Date: Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 14:50:24 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: We're all LOVE, LOVE, LOVE,
Message:
by our grace. Why kick a gift horse in the mouth?

Love,

Gail
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Date: Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 18:03:44 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: We're all LOVE, LOVE, LOVE,
Message:
Dear Gail,
I agree!
LOVE,
Katie
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 16:56:05 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I was taught the same thing.
Message:
Dear Robyn and Selena -
Just to confirm this (and show that it ain't just a Catholic thang): My husband Peter was taught the exact same thing. 'Dear' to start; 'love' to end, for personal letters. And he went to public school with a bunch of Norwegian Lutherans.

Love,
Katie
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 19:10:04 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: I was taught the same thing.
Message:
Dear Katie,
Apparently those Lutherians are pretty controling, I think Brian would tell you that, if I remember correctly.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 19:20:06 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Lutherans off topic
Message:
Dear Robyn,
You probably don't want to know about the intricacies of the Lutheran Church, but I'll tell you anyway. Brian is what they call a 'Missouri Synod' Lutheran (mostly German). These Lutherans have a few more rules than the ALCA Lutherans (mostly Scandinavian), which is what Peter is, and my family was too, originally, before we became Episcopalians (and then some of us became lapsed Episcopalians - sorry Michael!).

Love,
Katie
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 06:20:23 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Lutherans off topic
Message:
Dear Katie,
No, I am glad you told me. Information is always good! Thanks.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 00:29:39 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I was taught the same thing.
Message:
Dear Robyn, Selena, and Katie,
I went to a school on Okinawa run by fundamentalist Southern Baptists, Nazarenes, and Pentecostals, and I was taught the same thing. Maybe it's a Christian thang!
Love,
Michael
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 06:27:25 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: I was taught the same thing.
Message:
Dear Mickey,
I haven't ever even thought about it, if other people here do it, Dear/Love, I mean. :) What a way to start out a note to a priest! Somehow I think you wouldn't flinch. Anyway even since I started wondering I keep forgetting to take note but yours is the first one I have noticed and don't know if you did it because of the topic or because you just do it. Now I feel like I have to go back and check all the posts, Nigel, can we do a 'study' on it if I count?
Now I also want to know what other people were taught. Hey/See ya, or Hello/Tottle Pip, What! What else could be taught in schools.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 23:45:03 (EDT)
From: Francis Warren
Email: Warrenpeas@mindless.com
To: Keith
Subject: Hope you like your One-a-day
Message:
Hope you like your One-A-Day Geritol,

Dear Keith aka Swamiji,
I seldom post here but I just wanted to let you know, I for one enjoyed your supposed 'ramblings'. Perhaps I'm just another hopeless romantic, as I'm sure monsieur Heller thinks, but I too still believe that there are still many things out there that our puny brains can only pretend to understand, yet our hearts still know.
Right now I'm sure monsieur Heller is probably saying to himself, 'Oh no, not another one of them! Lord, help me! I just despise these hopelessly confused romantics!' Jim, please don't waste your time trying to refute me. Hopeless romantics and ruthless rationalists never have mixed too well, never have and never will. It's kind of like having a poet and a scientist in the same room trying to explain to one another the meaning of life. Makes for interesting conversation, but ultimately is futile for both.
Keith, still, all of these monikers, hope you stick with a simple 'Keith' from now on.
Please email me if you get tired of dealing with all of the ruthless rationalists around here. I'd like to know more about you.

Sincerely,

Francis Warren

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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:51:49 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Francis Warren
Subject: Hope you like your One-a-day
Message:
Whose says a poet can't be a scientist, or a scientist can't be a poet?

Also, you can read minds? You actually know what Jim's thinking? You ARE an amazing fellow.

Speak for yourself when you say puny brains.
I guess maybe you are.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:40:28 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: I mind and you've gone beyond
Message:
Let the debate be brief.

I almost spit out a mouthful of diet coke on this one.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:56:46 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: I mind and you've gone beyond
Message:
Jim,
Personally my favorite part was the re quote!
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 18:21:31 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: me too
Message:
The requote was the best part IMHO - I did laugh out loud at that one (LOL = Laugh Out Loud.) Isn't it nice to have a wizard around when you need one?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 18:58:22 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: A splendid....
Message:
Yes and he's a splendid wizard, too.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:16:48 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: A splendid....
Message:
Yes and he's a splendid wizard, too.

You ain't just whistling 'Dixie' there, Mike, although yesterday he was more like the cavalry. (IMHO, anyway!)
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:29:49 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: me too
Message:
Dear Katie,
I just can't remember that one, Laugh Out Loud, I keep wanting to say Laught a lot, but when I get to the 'a', I know I'm wrong and am facing a blank mind, flash back from my premie days I guess! Yes a wizard and the cavalry, what a man!
Love,
Robyn

I started to sign this Katie and I LOL! Forgetting myself again.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:51:18 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Astrology:an experiment -help!
Message:
Hi everyone,

It's a little off-topic, but the subject of astrology comes around with some regularity on this forum, so I'd like to invite you all to take part in a short experiment. I'll explain the full rationale and method once I've gathered the data. For this, I'd need your .

It's at : http://www.redcrow.demon.co.uk/horoscopes.html

(if you're shy about using email to take part, I guess you could post your entries in this thread, if Brian and Katie don't mind.)

Get a friend to do it too, and double the size of my sample group.

Thanks in anticipation,
Nigel
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 19:38:40 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: or least innacurate...!
Message:
I have had one email saying both horoscopes were way off-target. In such cases, please try to fall off the fence one way or the other. Pick the least innacurate . That'll do fine. Thanks.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 09:12:33 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Can't help but what about this
Message:
Since both those astrological predictions were way off I wouldn't even begin to consider one of them as near to the truth. But my point is this; Astrology was invented thousands of years ago when seafarers discovered they could navigate by the stars. Now it is well known that the constellations have moved in the heavens since astrology was first invented and the twelve constellations of Aries through to Pisces are in a totally different position in relation to out planet.

Yet astrologers STILL make astrological charts based upon where the twelve constellations were over two thousand years ago and not where they are today. Can anyone explain why we should take astrology seriously when this major flaw is apparent?

Also, the constellations are an optical illusion. They are not really as they appear. They are not flat groups of stars but are actually varying immense distances from the Earth. They only appear to be close to each other from our viewpoint. The stars are actually many light years apart from each other. A bit like looking through a window and seeing a speck of dirt on it and then lining that up with a star to create a 'double star'. As soon as you move your head you can see that the speck on the window and the star bear no relation to each other.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 11:58:54 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Hey, I want out
Message:
Nigel,

|I replied to your survey but, sorry, I have to agree. Neither a nor b fit worth shit. I was trying to be helpful by picking oen but it was truly such an arbitrary call. Needless to say, I think astrology's bogus. So, please factor in my would-be retraction however you will. Why are you doing this anyway?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 14:46:11 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Astrolololology
Message:
Yes I do wonder sometimes. Yes I do wonder sometimes. I'm Gemini, and do get on superbly with Aquarians and also Pisceans; and I know that we are not just influenced by our sun sign, but at the same time I think it has its limitations. I've got Cancer moon and Scorpio rising and am therefore very emotional. but Jim's probably got Capricorn and Leo and is still emotional. And Gerry's Gemini (MY BROTHER!! MY BROTHER!! NO, MY BROTHER. NO, MY BROTHER) and could have Pisces and a bit of Libra, but he could be rational like Capricorns are supposed to be. GET MY DRIFT? in other words, people is people.
by the way, Jim and Gerry, do not take the above examples to be anything other than examples to demonstrate my point.
by the way, have you thought of starting up your own icecream company? JIM and GERRY'S STRAWBERRY SOUFFLE flavour. ONLY TEASING! MY BRAIN IS SPAGHETTI BECAUSE ITs BEEN AN 11 HOUR DAY.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 14:58:40 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Astrolololology
Message:
Becky,

I think it's a little presumptuous for you to self-diagnose like that. You're not a doctor are you? How do YOU know why your brain is spaghetti? Please, a little humility in the face of the wonders of nature, if you don't mind.

My attitude about astrology is similar to my attitude about religions or other belief systems. Go back to its inception. Does it make any sense? Yes? Look further. No? Toss it without further ado. How fast? Faster! This fast? No, faster!

To be fair and complete, the only exception might be when there's OVERWHELMING evidence of some unexplained phenomena. For example, say astrology sounded like it came from nonsense but it was substantially impressive -- NOT slightly -- as a predictor or analytical tool. Then, I think, you have to deal with it differently. But neither astrology nor religion nor any new age belief system I'm aware of comes even close to that standard. Not even close. Thus, plan A -- look at its inception.

If you were there when the first guy looked up and said, 'hey, that looks like a scorpion, doesn' it?' and started to tell you some story therefrom, would you give it any credence? No, of course not. Not with our modern understanding of life and the universe. So why in the world give the tradition any greater respect just because people weren't savvy enough to call him on his bullshit from the start.

Same with gurus. Just because they've been playing this game in India for who knows how long, doesn't mean dick. Go back to the first guy who thought it up and ask him, 'what the hell you talking, boy?'

Same, of course, with all religious leaders. Jesus, Mohammed. Even David Koresh was probably just deluded.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 22:03:12 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jim
Subject: Starry starry night
Message:
Yes and I forgot to add to my prenious posts, that the reason why the constellations don't look a bit like scorpions, rams or lions is because the stars have moved within the so called groups. Now after 3,000 years odd, not only are the constellations in different places in the sky but they are unreckognisable from their ancient patterns.

You don't think stars move? The Pole star is now used to navigate due north but in the middle ages it was out by about five degrees and is already now shifting away from its northern point. Our galaxy is spinning like powdered milk on top of a stirred cup of coffee. Nothing in the heavens is fixed.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:56:07 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm impressed Jim!
Message:
With the way you are communicating with Becky here and with me when you responded with No Fucking Way. You are expressing your disagreement about the ideas without putting us down personally. I feel so much more willing to 'talk' when the opposition of ideas doesn't cause aggressive verbal attacks!!!Thankyou! I think I love you! (Want to share Robyn?)

Now on astrology, You share a sign with my ex-husband Jim (Nov. 17)and my brother(Nov.14), with whom there were major communication breakdowns. I share a sign with Joan Baez and birthday with Richard Nixon, Jan.9, Yikes!

What does this dream mean that I had last night. I was married to a premie, Jim, from 1975 to 1986. I haven't seen him for five years and we don't communicate much. He's still a premie as far as I know. I dreamt that he visited in our old home where neither of us lives anymore and I decided to tell him I wasn't a premie anymore. I said that M is not the only one to show the techniques. He got really angry and threatening and started to hit me. I woke up shortly. He never hit me, but I was afraid of his (or any) expressions of anger back then. Maybe I still am. I am now happily married to a kind and smart man who was never a premie (he didn't like the videos, thank goodness!)
Carol
Carol
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 15:03:51 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Becky
Subject: Astrolololology
Message:
Dear Becky,
Another gemini, knew I liked you! :) When is your birthday, mine is 6/2/55. When I was a premie there were a shit(just so I know I'm on the forum and not forum lite :). load of us that had birthdays in a row from I think 5/22 or 23 to 6/5 or something. One year we had a BIG party, FUN!
I am on a sabatical but in another week and 2 DAYS I will once again become actively involved in birthdays on the forum!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 16:13:09 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Astrolololology
Message:
Another gemini, knew I liked you!

But you like everyone, Robyn. Sheesh! Isn't there some other forum for this kind of stuff? Oh, if only. Gerry, why don't you start something. Kind of like a new age kindergarten.

I am on a sabatical but in another week and 2 DAYS I will once again become actively involved in birthdays on the forum!

Ohhhh, yippeeeeee!!!!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 16:59:05 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Everybody
Subject: Astrolololology
Message:
If anybody's looking for me, I'll be over at the New Age Kindergarten

Thanks for the plug opportunity, Jim!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 17:31:33 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Thanks, Jim and Rick
Message:
The New Age Kindergarten: a frou-frou forum!

As my stepfather used to say about good jokes: 'Hey, I like it! I'll use it!'
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:38:08 (EDT)
From: Selena (brain dead)
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Astrolololology
Message:
I am not coherent. Too many hours programming and trying to fix awful software.
I just asked you for the link to MMt and now I see you have already posted it.
(maybe my Mercury is in retrograde)
see? I am past Kindergarten if I can say something like that I deserve 3rd grade at least!
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 16:04:25 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Selena (brain dead)
Subject: Astrolololology
Message:
That's ok, Selena. I'm trying to warn Patty off the stuff (software,) but the woman won't be deterred. Maybe you could talk to her sometime.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:41:17 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Astrolololology
Message:
Jim,
You are such a shit Jim!
But I LIKE gemini's BEST OF ALL, except for Kaite! God, Jim can't I write anything without your approval. You'd better post your email and then I can send my proposed posts and you can post them for me if they pass your test. Don't think anyone would ever hear from me again, eh?
I guess you don't give a crap that I have worked 70-80 hours a week for 8 fucking months and I am so looking forward to having my life back so fuck you. You like your birthday bucko as I saw you enticing Rick to be nice to you by offering an invite to your party in Novemeber I think, November 14th maybe. I've got it written down somewhere. If your lucky I'll be gone by then so I won't bother you with some good cheer! Here I was going to send you a birthday pinata too, oh well.
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 01:00:29 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Geminis
Message:
I've never known any before you guys! I think I like them,(you) too! The split personalities keep things so interesting. But I don't think I'd want to marry one! No chance of that though.
Carol
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 11:05:27 (EDT)
From: RT
Email: mmm
To: Robyn
Subject: Cobol-ology
Message:
Hi Robyn

Been real busy and not responding, out of rhymes for the present (too hot) barely time to read.

How is your cobol training going? Let me know, I think I love you.

RT the Robyn Hood Winker ;)
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 19:30:47 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: RT
Subject: Cobol-ology
Message:
Dear Robyn Hood,
Thank for your post, the semester doesn't start for 2 weeks and I have one more week of 70 hour work weeks. I think we need to get a Cobol forum going. :) It was good to see a post without rhymn, I LOVE your posts but this was a nice change.
Let me now quote L. Wayne Horn and Gary M. Gleason from one of my favorites, 'Comprehensive Structured COBOL'
Each chapter contains a full complement of 'Self Test Exercises.' These short answere questions test vocab, basic skills, and programming techniques. They enhance the learning process by providing students with immediate feedback, as all Self Test answers appear in a separate section at the end of the book. Now THOSE are words to live by!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 16:50:18 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, don't stifle sceptical
Message:
...enquiry, Jim.

Why are you doing this anyway?

(a) because it's fun, and

(b) for what you might call 'educational' purposes.

Unlike the astrololological apolologist, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and make a testable prediction . That prediction is based on a reliable well-established principle known as probability theory.

As G's mom said recently, horoscopes are all very well but it doesn't really matter which star sign you pick - or words to that effect. My experiment will show exactly that. (I'll describe the method in full once its over).

Keith replied to Gmom that you had to study astrology 'seriously'.

This is a kop-out of the first order, and one that all 'serious' astrologers are wont to adopt: 'You really can't take horoscopes too seriously, it's the birth charts that matter (come see me for a private consultation at $100 a throw)'

If I were a serious astrologer and believed birthcharts to be valid whilst also believing magazine horoscopes were crap, I would speak out vociferously against the triviality of horoscopes because of the damage they could do to the integrity of my ancient science. Astrologers never do that, of course. Most of them knock out horoscopes on the side, and thousands (millions?) worldwide read them and believe in them.

One of my biggest personal obsessions in life is collecting crap theories, usually in second-hand paperback format. Dianetics, Biorythms, Eugenics, the Krishna perspective on reincarnation,
The World's Greatest Mystics, etc., you name it, I buy it - provided its both cheap and second-hand. (I don't like paying money to fraudsters).

Anyway, I went into the bookshop today and bought Alan Oken's 'The Horoscope, the Road and the Traveller'. It cost me 50p (approx= 1 dollar). I was still ripped-off, but it was maybe worth it. It explains in precise detail exactly how to draw up a birthchart. It has tables of logarithms and everything, and the whole thing looks very complicated and scientific. I believe it is that mathematical complexity, in fact, that makes the astrologers themselves believe their mumbo-jumbo is a science.

Of course there is absolutely nothing about the method for drawing up a birthchart that should give it any more credibility than stringing a few generalisations together to compile a horoscope would.

James Randi once used to compile a newspaper horoscope column by cutting and pasting random sentences from old horoscopes in any old order. Readers wrote in to praise their accuracy. He was sacked following the incident when, bored, he wrote a horoscope that went something like: 'None of the miseries or depairs of your life will prepare you for what shall befall you today!'

The newspaper switchboard was swamped by the calls of terrified readers - which just shows how seriously some people do take this hokum.

Astrology for me typifies the worst kind of cultural phenomenon - what they like to call 'ancient wisdom', which is really nothing more than primitive superstition masquerading as science. I despise it.

Cheers Jim,
Nigel

BTW: Please let me use your data, Jim. And please, don't anyone else withdraw theirs.

If I don't get a few more participants soon, everybody will have forgotten what happened in July and I'll have to call the whole thing off.

But thanks everyone who has responded so far. Much appreciated.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 15:56:21 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Sir David
Subject: You're absolutely right, Sir
Message:
Spot on, David.

The earth, in addition to rotating upon its own axis, performs a secondary partial rotation, rather in the manner of a spinning-top that has been knocked slightly off- balance. A trajectory continuing the line of the earth's axis northwards will, at present, eventually reach a point in space fairly close to Polaris, the 'pole' star. In some 13,000 years time the axis will have adjusted to a position at an angle of 60 degrees to its current situation, and Vega will be the pole star. The implications for astrology are these: some 2000 years ago, for the thirty-odd days following the vernal equinox (21st of March), the sun would rise daily in the constellation of Aries - the first sign of the zodiac. However, because of the rotation of the earth's axis in an anticlockwise direction, the point of sunrise on this day has crept backwards through Pisces, and will soon (no-one knows exactly where the line should be drawn), enter Aquarius ('this is the dawning of the...')

Two distinct schools of opinion have emerged regarding the 'correct zodiac' problem. In eastern countries the 'sidereal' zodiac is favoured - people are not attributed with the characteristics of Aries 'the ram' unless the sun actually rises in Aries on the day of their birth, ie. some time in late April onwards. In the west, astrologers of the 'tropical' school have kept the first day of Aries firmly fixed to the vernal equinox. The concept of sun-sign characteristics is so central to astrological theory, that clearly the two outlooks are irreconcilable.

The majority of astrological textbooks use the tropical zodiac, and it is western astrology that has come under the scrutiny of scientific research. Within western astrology, two basic assertions seem to be fairly universal: that personality is to some extent defined by astrological influences at the time of birth, and that all manner of important global or personal events are similarly 'written in the stars'.

Researchers have shown near-unanimity in rejecting astrological claims. Culver & Ianna tested the frequently made claim that certain sun-signs are more suited than others to particular career choices (eg. Scorpio for soldiers), and will hence be more represented in those professions. Using a very large sample group that spanned over sixty professions, they recorded not one instance of any association between sun-sign and career that was statistically significant.

Silverman investigated rates of divorce among a large sample of Americans, and found no evidence to support the popular notion that certain romantic pairings of sun-sign are incompatible. Per Dalen a Dutch researcher tested another assertion that often appears in astrological 'textbooks', namely, that susceptability to certain diseases are associated with specific sun-signs, which they're not of course...

Hey, I've just realised this thread isn't off-topic, after all.

One of the very first premie songs I ever heard (published by BM's own organisation) went:

We were in the Age of Water, now's the Age of Air
People don't expect the Lord in robes and flowing hair
He will come when and how he pleases, don't expect a thing,
We will know him by his Word, now hear the children sing [yuk!]


Good grief! - what a pile of bandicoot dung...

Cheers,
Nigel
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 16:15:52 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: What is a .......
Message:
Nigel, I know what dung is (step in it all the time), but what the heck is a bandicoot?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 16:54:37 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Mike
Subject: Bandicoots
Message:
It's an insect and plant-eating marsupial (it says here). Literally means 'destructive rat' in its original Indian form.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:23:41 (EDT)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Astrology:an experiment -help!
Message:
Nigel,
I am an Aquarius and in early July received a registered certified letter that has made a serious change in my life - though it will take about a year.
Also my grandson was born on July 6.
I would say choice A applies rather strongly.
and it kind of startled me! It's like you know me or something.
(ok ok I can hear the jokes now.)
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:32:11 (EDT)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: oops - I made a mistake
Message:
You know what? The letter came to me at the end of June. But the rest is right on. It's a complex matter that I needed a lawyer for and also it involves some serious financial stuff.
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 14:31:42 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: You got that right
Message:
It's like you know me or something.

Ha ha ha ha ha!
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 17:51:59 (EDT)
From: Selene (it's official)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You got that right
Message:
Sort of. That's the name I want but I'm waiting on the legal change because I am not in the mood to deal with more laywers at the moment.
Except of course you, Dear Jim.
What does ha ha ha ha ha mean?
I suppose that Nigel could have looked at every post I put here and pieced together that I am an Aquarius and that I received notice of something very important about six week ago but do you really believe that?
Or what? ha ha ha ha ha doesn't give me much to go on.
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 18:46:16 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow,demon. blah blah
To: Selene (it's official)
Subject: Nope, you aquarians are too bo
Message:
ring for that ;-)

Nigel

Swam in the Bullshit, '75
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 20:54:44 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: boring
Message:
I've been called far worse. I like the boring, I can use it to offset some other adjectives that have been applied :)

Jim it DID fit and it was weird. I am not going to read a lot into it but it is weird that it was so specific. hell I don't know!!
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 22:02:03 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: not boring
Message:
Selene/Selena/Celine, I was talking about aquarians generally, I mean, you must know what they're like. But nobody who changes their name three times in a week could ever be boring in my book... (er, am I making things worse here?)

Selena, You're cool. It's me that's boring... :-}
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 22:48:28 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Selene
Subject: boring
Message:
Dear Selena,
From what I know of you BORING is NOT a word I would use to describe you! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 19:03:13 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You got that right
Message:
Selene,

I was just laughing at the idea that Nigel's astrological description fit you as well as all that.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:41:51 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Black and white
Message:
OK Jim if you need things spelling out one hundred percent literally: no I would not go by Mohammed's teachings if he was a murderous man. Unfortunately I did not look fully at the Lucifer Principle because this is not my PC, I am at work, and was unable to get access to it for a decent length of time, but thank you for the trouble of posting it.
What is odd about the way you obtain information about Islam is that you go to Christian and Hindu fundamentalist websites. Looking at this logically, I would have thought that these websites would have a slightly distorted view of islam. Likewise, with Islam, you BELIEVE it is founded on a myth. that's fine. You can find ample materials to back up your belief. That's fine. You prefer to judge islam is 100% guilty without ever having tried to look at things from another point of view, without ever having read the Qur'an, without having studied Islam in context. In terms of law I guess this would mean that you would hang a man because of the things people said about him, rather than listen to both sides and weigh up the evidence.
I am more than willing to give information about islam, to try to help you to understand it, but you do not even take the trouble to comment on it.
The imam in Marseilles' name is Soheib Ben Cheikh. Why not check out what he has to say?
As for Mohammed, of course people are going to be saying contradictory things about him. Of course they are going to say he was cruel, violent, mysoginistic.
I'm not buying into islam, I am merely studying it with an open mind, and I am not assuming the arrogance of knowing what it is when there is yet so much that I do not know. Until I have weighed up what I have found, which, as I said before, may take many years, I shall not take it upon myself to judge.
Sorry if that sounds sanctimonious Gerry.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:19:05 (EDT)
From: M.b
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Black and white
Message:
Oh Becky , oh fair minded kindred soul ,
do you not realise that you inhabit the kingdom of judges
here on this forum ?
But please keep your thoughts a'flowing ; for your gentle
waters can help to freshen these polluted and dammed rivers.
I kid you not ; you are a flower of hope .
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 14:25:47 (EDT)
From: MB
Email: None
To: M.b
Subject: Hope
Message:
Thank you for your kind and understanding words.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 14:28:01 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: MB
Subject: the above is from me
Message:
The above is from me. I keep typing the name in the wrong box.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:03:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Black and white
Message:
OK Jim if you need things spelling out one hundred percent literally: no I would not go by Mohammed's teachings if he was a murderous man.

Alright! We're getting somewhere. Now as far as I'm concerneed, all that needs to be done is to get to the bottom of what exactly he did with that jewish town. Don't you agree?

Becky, I have spent a fair bit of time trying to track something down on the net and it ain't easy. If I were the paranoid type I might almost think people are hesitant if not loathe to post anything critical of Mohammed because of the infamous threat of retaliation this often invites. So you've got to help me out here. You keep suggesting that Islam's got another spin on the incident I keep mentioning. How do you know that? Is this just your wishful thinking? Why won't you say just what that spin is if you know?

And as for less partial sources, will you help me find one or two? It's a little disappointing that I went to all that trouble to post that chapter from The Lucifer Principle only to learnm that for whatever reason, you didn't read it.

This whole thing about studying the Koran (what's wrong with that spelling?) or studying Islam 'in context' is a non-starter with me. I'm more interested in the man who started all this show. If he's nothing more than just one more raver who cares about all the time and energy that followed him? Certainly not me. And certainly not you either by what you've said above.

So let's get to the bottom of this. First, what is the 'official' Islamic explanation for Mohammed's activities in that jewish town he's said to have wiped out?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 16:29:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: One account
Message:
Here's one account of what happened, again from a jewish source (although I'd hate to think that you, Becky, would necessarily dismiss it out of hand for that reason). The emphasis is mine:

''There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet!' With this cry, a new religion was born in the Arabian Peninsula and, within less than a hundred years, spread into North Africa and east all the way to Central Asia.
The basic tenets of Islam have much in common with those of Judaism. Obviously, the Prophet Muhammad (570?-632) had at least a passing familiarity with the Torah. In fact, some scholars believe that Muhammad hoped to convert the Jews living in Arab countries to Islam by proclaiming himself as the last in a line of prophets which included Elijah and Jesus of Nazareth. However, when the Jewish community of his capital city, Medina, rebuffed him in 627, he ordered 600 Jewish heads of families executed and their families sold into slavery. After this, he turned his attention to converting and unifying the desert tribes of the Arabian peninsula.[10]

The Muslim Arabs (also called Saracens), who took Jerusalem from the Byzantines in 637 A.D., reached Bukhara in 709. In 874, the Saminid (Sunni Muslim) dynasty established its capital there. While the Saminids imposed heavy taxes upon all who refused to accept Islam, the caliphs were fairly tolerant of the religious practices of the resident Jews, to whom they accorded the status of dhimmi or 'protected Unbelievers'. Since alcohol was forbidden to Muslims, the Jews enjoyed a monopoly on wine-making. Also during this period, a group of Jewish merchants known as the Radanites financed trading caravans over the Great Silk Road to China in the East and Damascus in the West.

This period was a high point in Arabic culture and the arts. The renowned Arab scholar and physician Avicenna (Ibn Sina) was born near Bukhara in 980 and grew up studying the philosophy of Aristotle as well as Greek medicine and mathematics.

The Saminids fell in 999 to the Qarakhanids, and years of unrest followed. Although by now cut off geographically, culturally and linguistically from all contact with the Jews of Europe, Persian Jews managed to remain in touch with other Jewish communities under Arab rule, even those as far away as Morocco and Moorish Spain, where the great rabbi Moses Maimonides (1135-1204) was engaged in codifying the Mishna Torah. Although he did not mention Bukhara, Benjamin of Tudela noted during his travels in 1170 the existence of a Jewish community numbering 50,000 in nearby Samarkand.'
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 16:44:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Another
Message:
This one's from a Christian site. Oh well, refute it factually, if you can. Again, the emphasis is mine:

'We were (sitting) in the mosque when the Messenger of Allah came to us and said: (Let us) go to the Jews. We went out with him until we came to them. The Messenger of Allah stood up and called out to them (saying): 'O ye assembly of Jews, accept Islam (and) you will be safe.' They said: Abu'l Qasim (=Mohammed) you have communicated (Allah's message to us).' 'This was twice repeated with the same answer. Then Mohammed added: 'You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I wish that I should expel you from this land.' Mohammed expelled Banu Nadir. ('Sahih Muslim' II, pages 963-960 and 'Mishkat' II, page 454). The Banu Quraiza (also Jews) put up a resistance.
'Then he killed their men and distributed their women, children and properties among the Muslims, except that some of them had joined the Messenger of Allah, who granted them security. They embraced Islam.' ('Sahih Muslim' III, pages 963-964).

'The people of Quraiza surrendered accepting the decision of Saïd ibn Mu'adh (a loyal Muslim) about them....Saïd said; 'You will kill their fighters and capture their women and children.' (Hearing this), the Prophet said: 'You have judged by the command of God.' ' (ibid. page 966).

We are told in practically all the explanations of this incident, that the Quraiza had been acting treacherously towards the Muslims. We could not find this claim confirmed in any Hadis, but even if we had, the following event would not be justified:

'Then the Apostle of Allah went out to the market place of Medinah....and caused to be dug in it trenches. Then he sent for them and beheaded them in those trenches. They were brought forth unto him as sent for....there were 600 - 700 of them. And he who estimates their number highest says that they were between 800 and 900....And that state of affairs did not come to an end until the Apostle of Allah had finished with them....
Ayshah says:

'None of their women were slain, except one woman....she was with me, talking with me....while the Apostle of Allah was killing her men in the market place, when a crier cried out her name.....She said, 'It is I, by God.' I said to her, 'Alas for thee, what is the matter with thee?' She said, 'I shall be killed.'I said, 'And why?' She said, 'For the talk which I talk.' Then she was taken off and beheaded.' Ayshah used to say, ' By Allah, I do not forget my surprise at her, the godliness of her person....' 'Then verily the Apostle of Allah divided the goods of the Banu Quraiza and their wives and children among the Muslims....And the Apostle of God chose for himself of their women Rihânah....and she was with the Apostle of Allah until he died from her, and she was among his concubines.' (Siratu'l Rasool vss. 689-693). '
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 14:24:37 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: One account
Message:
Jim, I've printed off what you've said and will take it home tonight to compare with the sources/accounts that I have.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:40:19 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Black and white
Message:
Becky: I know I haven't chimed in on this one (and probably shouldn't), but for what it's worth, here's my opinion on this subject. I spent alot of time in the Middle East, seeing Islam in action. I've read the Qur'an (I don't claim to be an expert on it, though). Just like most of the other 'holy' books, the precepts taught are, for the most part, a first-class way to run your own life, if that is what you choose to do. My problem with them has always been in the area of 'application' and practical interpretation. What the clergy say and/or do doesn't seem to jive with what the book says (there's a big surprise, right?). The same applies to the 'plain folk' that profess to follow the precepts, as well. While I was in the middle east, I DID SEE spousal abuse (with religion used as the justification). I SAW extreme disrespect shown towards women, in general (again, with the same justification). Women are NOT ALLOWED to speak their minds in public (under pain of DEATH, with the same justification). Where they get that justification from, I don't know 'cause it ain't in their book! Maybe the average joe/jane doesn't actually read the book or they are taught that they are too stupid to understand the finer points (boy, there's a unique way to fool someone, huh?). I am NOT, by the way, singling out Islam here; this can, and probably does, apply to any organized religion (no disrespect intended Mickey). I guess my bottom line is this: Just like we've done with M (now!), you must consider the source before you accept any interpretation or guidance from that source. Be skeptical as hell! Be Careful about accepting anyone else's interpretation of the book. Read it and understand it for yourself. In other words, don't fall into the same basic 'cult' trap of allowing someone else to make up your mind for you. Better yet, don't associate yourself with a 'religious group' at all. Study it yourself, by yourself, for yourself. Considering your past, I think god would understand your resistance to group-joining. Did that make sense?

BTW, did you know that the Qu'ran is NOT TO BE TRANSLATED from Arabic. It is not to be READ or RECITED in any other language than Arabic! Period! Don't ask me, but that's a very vocal belief espoused in the Middle East. Something about its losing ALL of its meaning in any other language. (Really, I'm not making this up!)
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:43:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Freudian interpretation?
Message:
Women are NOT ALLOWED to speak their minds in public (under pain of DEATH, with the same justification).

Mike,

When I first read this I thought you wrote 'with some justification' -- as a joke, of course. I laughed. Sorry.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 16:10:18 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Freudian interpretation?
Message:
Jim: Now is that a telling statement or what??? snicker..snicker.
Actually, your interpretation is just about right, because that justification ain't in the book.....
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 14:23:17 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Yes Mike I agree
Message:
Absolutely. What you saw in the Middle East is also what I saw. There is SO MUCH cultural bullshit that people cite as religious. There are also some ludicrous interpretations of the Qur'an. (Jim, Koran is fine, I just choose to write it how it sounds). Some very learned people justify the most inhuman things by something in the Qur'an that is very mild. I read an article by Yusuf Islam who said the poetry was not allowed. He justified this by quoting a verse from the Qur'an which says something like 'Do not follow the poets because they will lead you astray'. I wrote a letter to him saying that the Qur'an was actually warning against men who are excellent with words ( such as M) and who allow people to treat them like prophets, when very often they don't practice what they preach. The Qur'an does not say anything against POETRY.
I met a Sudanese Muslim called Zafar, who said the Islam had been sent by God to the Arabs because (generally speaking) they are not a gentle people and so needed it. (Although I have met some incredibly gentle and honourable Arabs).
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 06:06:09 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: M.B. is not me
Message:
Hi guys

Whoever is posting as M.B. is not me, I've been taking time off to write a couple of crime prevention funding applications on behalf of Aboriginal communities over the last few weeks, so I have not able to stay up to date with whats been happening on the Forum.
If I post, I will post As Mel Bourne to avoid confusion, so M.B. can continue to post as M.B.

I will graciously forgive any of the negative comments addressed to 'Mel', but intended for M.B.

Incidently, I haven't read any of M.B.'s postings

Regards

Mel Bourne
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 10:19:00 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Apologies to Mel Bourne
Message:
Say Mel,

You're miles above this M.B. character. Katie knew right away it wasn't you . Unfortunately, I didn't have her insight to recognize it wasn't you. I thought you had snapped. Glad to hear it's not you and again, sorry.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 10:47:34 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Apologies to Mel Bourne
Message:
Gerry

Your apologies accepted - many thanks,

Sometimes I think we tend to misjudge each other when communicating on the Forum.

Afterall, when normal communication happens the whole spectrum of body language, nuance of tone and a host of other factors come into play to convey meaning. All these 'extras' are lost here and can give rise to huge misunderstandings. I guess if we are aware of that and try to make allowance for it, may be the 'fights' that occur may not appear so overwhelming (although, obviously, people will always disagree with each other)

Mel

PS I think Katie has the advantage of checking the ISP for postings, so I'm not surprised she that she did not confuse me with M.B.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 10:55:48 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Apologies to Mel Bourne
Message:
Hi Mel -
I actually could tell that it wasn't you without checking the ISP - I don't know your ISP anyway. If you read some of MB's posts, you'll probably see why (but then you might feel REALLY insulted!)

Regards from Katie
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:22:33 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Apologies to Mel Bourne
Message:
How easily we jump to assumptions.
I never intimated that I was Mel Bourne and yet a number of
great thinkers assumed I was.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:35:04 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: Apologies to Mel Bourne
Message:
MB: Yeah, aren't you just so proud of yourself? 'I can use the initials MB and fool them into thinking I'm Mel.' WOW, that really proved your point, didn't it? By the way, what WAS your point pinhead? Let's see what meaningless drivel springs forth from your pen, now.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:44:53 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Apologies to Mel Bourne
Message:
Listen ASSHOLE ; FUCKWIT , (self-confessed) , which just
goes to show how true it must be .

M.B was meant to be B.M in reverse ; too fucking difficult
wasn't it big brain?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:50:55 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: Apologies to Mel Bourne
Message:
Well now... that was educational!
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:04:43 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Apologies to Mel Bourne
Message:
See Mike , with a little humility, life has a way
to show you just those ropes you need in order to climb
higher.
Just a little deference to your superiors now and then ,
and they will bestow onto you riches unimagined here or
hereafter.
Ask and you shall be lied to .
Ask with a honest heart and you shall be shown the keys
to unlock your deepest secrets.
Now isn't all this educational too .
Have you found your true master ?
On your knees with you ; weep with joy!
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:44:35 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Misjudging
Message:
I agree Mel. for example, if Gerry could see me face to face I am sure he would find it unnecessary to call me the names that he did. Gerry I'm sorry if I upset you with my comments about western men. Please accept my apologies.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:48:16 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: BM MB? OH NO!
Message:
My surname begins with M. That makes me BM. Can everybody please stop insulting each other. (by the way, I always post as Becky, so if you want to insult me, you won't confuse me with any one else.)
HERE'S TO INSULTS AND IN-FIGHTING!
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:07:33 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: What, me insult?
Message:
Awww mom, you never let me have any fun... (Big smile on my face) ;-)
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:57:40 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Misjudging
Message:
As long as this is an apology thread, please accept mine for calling you a sucker and a twit. You sound like a sincere person, I just hate to see you give your energies to more religious corruption, but it's your life and your decision.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:01:29 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Hi...Tape
Message:
I didn't send the tape yet, sorry. Will do soon.
Carol
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 16:52:36 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: glyng @techline.com
To: Carol
Subject: Hi...Tape
Message:
Yes, Carol that tape...I've never seen the adult BM in action, in fact the first adult pictures I'd seen of him were at this website. I'd love to see his current act. Thanks, you do have my snail mail address, don't you?
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:10:26 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Hi...Tape
Message:
I sent it by cheap mail today!Carol
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 10:59:34 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: THAT'S DISGUSTING!!!
Message:
Yes, Carol that tape...I've never seen the adult BM in action, in fact the first adult pictures I'd seen of him were at this website. I'd love to see his current act.

Talk about throwing up! Gery, I can't believe your mind can even begin to go there. Holy shit! Are you serious? Believe me, I certainly DON'T want to see anything of the kind. No thanks!
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 17:40:59 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: lol nt!
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 19:40:54 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: M.B. is not me
Message:
Thanks, Mel. I'm glad MB isn't you. As I said below, I was afraid you had changed personalities entirely. I'm glad you didn't. Hope things are going well.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 19:59:21 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: MB IS KEITH!
Message:
Well I think so at least. Look at this way:

Keith is upset and disappears on Sunday (not permanently I hope, Keith. I'm sure most of us who disagree with with the stuff you post still like you as a person, so come back please ;-).

The frustration of having signed off (I've been there and worn the t-shirt) can get pretty bad after three days or so.

Suddenly we have this new character, neither avowed premie nor ex, yet seems to know all about the forum and its contributors.

Also he has a lot to say. Phrases his sentences and arranges them in the window in a similar way as Keith did....

My apologies Keith if you are not MB.
My apologies MB if you are not Keith.

Tell me I'm jumping to conclusions if you like, but I'd like one of you to tell me I'm wrong.

Best wishes,
Nigel
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:12:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: MB IS KEITH!
Message:
I was just talking to Laurie at work. 'Anything new on the page?' she asks. 'Naw, not really.' 'So who's this m.b. piece of work? Do you think it's Keith? It has the same dumb thinking, pomposity and style?' 'Yeah, maybe. Hey, look! Here's a post from Nigel that just came up. He thinks m.b.'s Keith. Let me see.'

Nigel,

I think you're right. And no, I don't like Keith. Really, what's to like? You know, we had this politician here in B.C., a member of the legislature, who got busted for writing letters under fake names to various newspapers extolling his virtues and condemning his opponents. A real sniveller. He got caught, woudl barely admit it, and forced his constituency to go through a recall thingamuhjig instead of resigning fair and square. Like I say, a real sniveller.

IF Keith is m.b., once again, he's sputtering dumb, dumb, DUMB inanities and trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. You can have him, Nige, but to me he's just a worm.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:51:45 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: MB IS KEITH!
Message:
I don't like Keith. Really, what's to like?

I don't know Keith, Jim. Neither do you. Come to that, I don't really know you, Katie, JW, Brian, BB etc., either. But Keith did shed a tear for England's going out of the World Cup in tragic circumstances. I can relate to that.

I disagree with practically everything Keith has posted regarding our fake guru, astrology, NDE's, Jung and the rest of it. So what? And I don't like being accused of being part of some group-thinking hate cult.

But I like discussing things with people I disagree with. So do you. Win your argument and you might help both the person you're arguing with and curious onlookers.

At least Keith (in his various incarnations as Vacol, Vayu etc.) has stuck around to engage in various debates - unlike 'Student' or 'a premie'. He even seems to have changed over the last few months. He certainly didn't regard M as 'authoritarian' when he delivered 'Vacol: My Testimony, part 1'.

I'm not being prurient here but if someone goes through personal changes in a public arena like this, I admire that in a strange sort of way. Call me a sicko, if you like, but it makes me curious.

pranam ;-)
nigel
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:06:57 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: nigel
Subject: MB IS KEITH!
Message:
Dear Nigel,
I don't think you are a sicko! I think I have done just that here also although not about BM but I think that is why Keith and I hit it off because I felt a connection to him that went beyond his words and maybe what you describe is just what I saw in him. I have always thought I gave to much info to freely but it has also been helpful to me.

I'm not being prurient here but if someone goes through personal changes in a public arena like this, I admire that in a strange sort of way. Call me a sicko, if you like, but it makes me curious.

I know I like how you said this here.

Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:12:16 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: MB IS KEITH!
Message:
But I like discussing things with people I disagree with. So do you. Win your argument and you might help both the person you're arguing with and curious onlookers.

At least Keith (in his various incarnations as Vacol, Vayu etc.) has stuck around to engage in various debates - unlike 'Student' or 'a premie'.


Nigel,

I love to argue about things but only fairly. Keith doesn't have the mental clarity, fortitude or whatever to do that. He's a jerk and a dumb one at that.

He even seems to have changed over the last few months. He certainly didn't regard M as 'authoritarian' when he delivered 'Vacol: My Testimony, part 1'.

I wonder how much 'change' he'd have undergone if there was a place for premies, and not just ex's, to get together. Nigel, the guy's a goof. I don't know how else to say it. He's just a goof.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:16:35 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: MB IS KEITH!
Message:
I wonder how much 'change' he'd have undergone if there was a place for premies, and not just ex's, to get together. Nigel,

Exactly!

Isn't that what makes the ex-premie forum such a wonderful thing?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:18:25 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: MB IS KEITH!
Message:
I think that MB is Keith too, Nigel. I just asked a few other people and they concurred. I kind of liked Keith too, and I actually thought that he kind of liked me a little - boy was I wrong!

Anyway, welcome back, Keith, if it is you. I won't answer any of your posts any more.

Katie
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:22:41 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Katie and all
Subject: Who cares who it is
Message:
Seems like we wasted enuf of our lives on BM. Do we really WANT to waste more on premies and sympathetic apologists? I mean, who wants to know WHOEVER it is that has been posting that shit?

I know it's not quite that simple but... I'm not really here to argue with these people.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:30:22 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Runamok
Subject: What motivates indifference?
Message:
So if arguing with them is a waste of time, then posting to say you don't want to argue with them must be... I dunno? ;-)
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:31:09 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Who cares who it is
Message:
One reason it might be important to people that MB is a person who has posted here before is that they might have already decided to save their breath and not argue with the person! Also, I think that 'MB' sounds like he/she was about to lose it, and I was concerned for both them and the forum. But otherwise, I do think that engaging this MB person in argument is a huge waste of time for me personally. Like you - I'm not here to argue with this people (although others may be into it).
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:35:16 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Who cares who it is
Message:
Hi Katie (in real time!)

I don't really care who was, either, but I'm still sort of patting myself on the back for having spotted it. God! have none of us anything better to do?

best wishes
Nigel
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:48:55 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Who cares who it is
Message:
Personally, I think all of us are just total wastrels and slackers, Nigel. I have lots of better things to do, but I persist in posting on this forum. (Isn't that what MB said?). I am considering emulating you and turning off my modem for a while.

I do need to tell you though, that you're only the first person who guessed who MB was, and then put it on the forum. But that means you have the courage of your convictions, so I guess you do deserve a pat on the back anyway. Consider yourself patted.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:20:52 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Call that a pat?
Message:
Ouch! Not so hard.

Anyway, bet I even thought it before you thought it, nya nya de nya nya... ;-)

Time to lock up the modem and get some sleep, methinks.

All the best
Nigel
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:25:16 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Katie, Nigel
Subject: Excuse me...
Message:
But who guessed on Aug 4 at 20:36:45 under the'' knowledge'' thread, that MB was Keith??? Yours truly. (it's in the inactive)

You other guys are mere johnny-come-lately's.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:30:03 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Gerry's right
Message:
I stand corrected. Pat for Nigel, double pats for Gerry, plus a gold star.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:29:16 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: And I was wrong
Message:
But who AM I trying to remember??? Maybe it was Vacol.
Carol
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:54:28 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: me too
Message:
Carol, it took me a long time to figure out that it was Keith, because MB said some pretty vile things - things I didn't think Keith would say.

A lot of the people who attack the forum start to sound really similar to me - maybe because they generally say a lot of the same things.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 00:47:40 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Excuse me...
Message:
Gerry also deserves credit for spotting Mel Bourne as a questionable character, and I believe he may have coined the phrase BM.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 09:17:16 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Excuse me...
Message:
Dear Rick,
I don't know about Mel Borne (is that his real name? It is so close to the name of that card game. One of the only games I like about a French car race, I think.)
Gerry DEFINITELY coined BM. I remember being Thrilled with it and asking him if I could use it!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:36:47 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Runamok
Subject: Who cares who it is
Message:
Hey Run,
For me anyway, the reason I care is that if MB is Keith, he has been here for sometime and I care about him. If it is Keith I want to know he is OK. We watched him, from the side lines go through a metamorphisis and I think that some other people here care about him too.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 00:53:12 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Robyn
Subject: Who it is
Message:
I know, it's just that we spend so much time with people trashing the damn thing. If it was a physical environment they would have to be asked to leave.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:12:43 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: all
Subject: MB is definitely Keith!
Message:
I've just looked again at the 'anger therapy' thread.

Now I would put money on it. MB is Keith.

Listen, Keith, it doesn't really matter if you've quit the forum and want to come back That's Ok - just be Keith, and I for one will talk to you - regardless of previous misunderstandings.

Just don't ever accuse me of worshipping at the lotus (and probably smelly) feet of Jim Heller. The guy is bad news and a good laugh too - but follow his teachings? - well I don't know. he's wrong about Chomsky for starters... ;-)

Cue JW...

(stage whisper:) hssss! I said cue JW.... Chomsky...
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:14:32 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: MB is definitely Keith!
Message:
Nigel,

We ran you and the Chomsky parade out of town. You want to do this all over again? I'll sick runamok on ya'.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:23:27 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: MB is definitely Keith!
Message:
Hsss! cue JW....

Much as (sort of) like having Keith around, Jim Ji, I still like you better ;-)

nige
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:53:27 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I don't think so...
Message:
I can't remember the one I think it is, yet.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:57:34 (EDT)
From: Niegl
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Baffling me again!
Message:
Hi Carol,

You mean you don't think it's Keith?

£200 (virtual pounds sterling) says it is. Or if you wanna go higher...
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:32:22 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Niegl
Subject: Baffling me again!
Message:
Sorry, I admitted my wrong before I read this. I wasn't sure enough to bet anyway. Good intuition Nigel, or was it investigation....
Carol
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:02:55 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: I don't think so...
Message:
Hi Carol -
If you go into the last archived forum, and look at the posts there (they are not ZIPPED yet), compare the format and punctuation style, not to mention the writing style. If it's not Keith, then it's someone trying to imitate his style, his thoughts, and his feelings about the forum.

BTW, I would feel better if MB was not Keith. I just think he is, which is sad

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 04:35:28 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Anger therapy
Message:
So this is the place for angry mother fuckers to hang out
in .
That's a good looking face to present to the outside
world .
Hey , all you lurkers and forum devotee's , do you have
anger to express ?
Let it all go ; here on your very own angry-busters forum.
Follow the thoughtless instructions of your angry hosts ;
learn how to give others hell and feel better for it .
Learn how to twist words into fucking tangles by
asking Jim if you can be his student.
Join the many others who have benifited from his course
in 'how to fuck the downtrodden until they see the light'.
Ask the inner circle of HIS growing org.
Rick , Gerry , Katie (who kindly claps from the side-
lines) , Nigel , Mike, Father Micky , oh the list is
endless.
Of course all these ex-premie instructors will insist
that they speak for themselves.
That Jim only gave them the fucking key.
That they are all free mother fuckers.
Of course , the more awakened among the forum lurkers
know what a lot of baloney that is.
But anger being what it is knows no bounds and Jim is
doing humanity a great service in encouraging others
to be the little rotters they really are ; no more
hiding ; good tantric type emotional release therapy.

From the clutches of Maharaji into the claws of Jim !
No fucking way .
I'll just wander in the darkness for a few more life-
times!
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:31:27 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: Anger therapy
Message:
My, my, my....did we wake up a little testy this morning? Cut down on the caffeine, it'll help.

By-the-by: I AM A FUCK-WIT (and an ASSHOLE, too!) Thanks for noticing. Do you like it? It's an old look for me, but hey, it's all mine.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:28:54 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Anger therapy
Message:
Congratulations ! Mike .
You win the prize for being the first to own up !
Don't you feel reborn?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:14:18 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: You need - Anger therapy
Message:
'BM in reverse:' Yup, it's envigorating to acknowledge the truth, try it. You see, once you acknowledge the fact that you are something, you can fix it if you don't like it. But, I'm sure you have already figured that out, haven't you?

By the way, it's been real enjoyable goading you into getting angry (actually, I think you were already that way, I just made it a bit more pointed). See how easy it is for someone else to control your life when you don't take firm control of it yourself? This is the damage that M has done to alot of folks and this is THE reason that this site exists. Everyone here has had to deal with it individually. There is NO group-think here; which would be obvious to even the MOST lame observer. The personalities here are as unique as they can be. The fact that we agree on some issues is not group-think. The fact that some have become athiest is not evidence of group-think. What IS EVIDENCE of group-think is when an INDIVIDUAL isn't even 'permitted' to say their piece (including vehement disagreements). M's cult is a great example of group-think and group-hallucination (seeing him as god was definitely a group hallucination). I MAY be able to manipulate your thoughts and feelings, IF you are open to it, but I cannot CHANGE YOUR MIND. Your mind is yours; YOU have to change it. That is what this site is about; making YOUR MIND all yours, again.

No, I don't want to get into a useless shouting(?) match with you and I certainly don't like using expletives, much. It takes too much energy away from my main target...M! So if all you want to do is stir 'my' pot, don't bother. If, on the other hand, you wish to discuss YOUR ideas, I'm more than willing to read them. I like it when people exercise their minds, it makes them healthy again after their long M-slumber.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:28:02 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mike You missed a joke cue
Message:
BM in reverse is known as constipation or blockage. Seriously impedes the flow of life. (MB, what you said is drivel, must be drippage from your blockage.)
Carol
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:00:25 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Mike You missed a joke cue
Message:
Oooooooo... Carol, good one! Didn't know ya had it in ya, girl!
;-) ;-) nudge, nudge

I just don't see how anyone could think that 'group-think' is happening here. Man, talk about a 'grouping' of distinct individuals! I don't believe that I have EVER seen so many individual personalities with such diverse ideas on life (and proud of it, thank you) in one place. I haven't seen a large amount of agreement on anything, except that M has done alot of damage. AND that is as it should be! We don't NEED to agree with each other; we're not in a cult anymore. But we can sure as heck enjoy each other's company. Maybe another thing to think about is our 'artificially inbred' need to have others agree with us (or us agree with them). WE are individuals. We don't really NEED to have anyone agree with us. Of course, it's nice to have a little agreement, once in a while, but is it absolutely necesssary to our existence? I think not. The proof of that is right HERE! We are getting along just fine without necessarily agreeing with anything that anyone else has to say. How's that for diversity?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:44:26 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: You need - Anger therapy
Message:
That was educational too Mike.
Are we talking ?
No expletives eh ?
I'll try .
Fucking difficult though !

Hmmmm ; what to say that is of real consequence .
Well your last post was shooting straight from the hip.
I did appreciate that .
Not that I agree with all your opinions.
But hey , that's what thinking our own thoughts is all
about .
No group mind sets here , you say , well I'm glad to
soften my claim to the contrary .
If you will soften yours .
Or do folks on this forum represent a freedom well in
advance of humanity at large ?

I've looked into my own psyche a bit and behold !
I saw a coward who's instincts were driven by a need
to survive .
And a need to confront the fear of death .
And as silly as it sounds , when I fear banishment from
the group , I fear death itself.
So I realised that becoming free from the group mentality
is no simple task.
And if one is a tad bit sensitive one can smell that fear
where others might smell roses.
Can't help it Mike .
When I sniff the air and smell hypocracy I just get the
urge to get creative.
You know that smug group and individual air of superiority
that premies tend to emit ; well do you think that premies
have a monopoly on this ?
It can be subtle .
And it's like walking around all day with your pant buttons
undone and being the last to realise it .

Who , Mike , is going to scrutinise the scrutiners ?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:52:19 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: You need - Anger therapy
Message:
Carol , what do you do with all your constipated craps ?
Oh sorry ; the answer is so obvious .
You share them on the forum.
It works for you , eh?
Good show !
The forum is like one big bog-house.
Or like a huge hankie to catch our collective drivel .
Or Carol , have you the keys to the higher kingdom ;
the drivel-less paradise .
If so , please give me a sign.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:09:30 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: You need - Anger therapy
Message:
MB, I usually try to be kind. I admit to my own blockages. I like humor and if I find an opportunity to exercise my humor muscles, I like to take it. You were fair game considering some mean statements you made about very good people (Katie to be specific). I'm glad you aren't Mel Bourne, I should have known. If you clean up your act you may not be subject to potty talk...but you said MB was the opposite of BM, so....

The way to the higher kingdom is to Put Love First. That's the only sign I know.
Carol
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:15:17 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: You need - Anger therapy
Message:
Carol , don't you feel deep in your bones that the mild
mannered ones (like Katie for example ) can do with a
little hard-edged confrontation once in a while .
Especially as she is in the position of assistant web-
master and feels the need to play the game with tippie
toey impartiality (which she does quite well , actually ) .
Come on ; jim has been seemingly keeping bods on their toes
with well aimed darts for eons ; who is beyond a little
sabre rattling invective ?
Anyway Carol , besides all that , isn't it just wonderful to
chat away like this ?
And to think ; I hardly know you .
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:48:05 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: M.B
Subject: Anger therapy
Message:
M.B.
You sound VERY angry to me. When I was a premie I felt an overpouring of love radiating from me. Where's your love M.B. Is that one of the other things Knowledge Lite did away with?
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:04:17 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Anger therapy
Message:
Robyn , open your sweet ears .
Who said I was a fucking premie ?
As for love .
Robyn , I LOVE YOU , honestly , this is all a big
fucking performance I'm putting on ; just so you forum
dwellers can see a demon when you look into the mirror .
Get it ?
There are demons who walk and talk amongst you .
But they project their demonic diatribes onto those they
have judged as criminals of humanity.
I , as fucking difficult as it is , try to balance the
accounts .
Robyn , don't you know how to play this game .
Hide and seek .
Because the irony is that many who profess openess are hiding.
And many who are hiding are open , but perhaps a little
wised up .
AH , the long night of the soul !
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:11:43 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: Katie, who did you say...?
Message:
This looks like the posts of someone else we've seen before.
Carol
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:31:14 (EDT)
From: m.b
Email: None
To: Carol and Katie
Subject: Katie, who did you say...?
Message:
The way of a cheat is to spoil the game for everyone.
Who did you say was a cheat ?
The one who ratted ?
The one who sold secrets to the press ?
The spy ?
The one who possessed secret knowledge and who was willing to
abuse it ?
Well , anything to protect queen and country .
I mean , it is a fucking war isn't it ?
But , what I like about some games , is that there are many
ways to play ; Sometimes I even like to change the rules .
Who said I can't ? I'll think for myself .

For those who have not the foggiest what I'm raving on about ,
tune out ; hey, it wasn't meant for you anyway .
And for the others who may have an inkling ; I'm feeling
to retire for a bit and re-enter as King Lear or
perhaps Thomas the doubter .
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:25:25 (EDT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: What is your name?
Message:
I know you are an ex-premie who has posted here before. But I'm too lazy to go try to find out who by reading old posts. There's a rule for us to follow, not to use multiple names, 'though I know we don't get kicked out for it. But how about revealing the game a bit more?
Carol
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:41:35 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: What is your name?
Message:
Carol , who are you ?
Can I know you by name alone ?
Or by what presentation of yourself can I know you ?
You speak of the rules .
What rules are they ?
Can you spell them out ?
I assure you I am only ever one person at a time .
But change is the spice of life , isn't it ?
And rules are so boring anyway , don't you think .
I believe in self-imposed rules ; for then I must be in
control of myself .
For better or for worse I then have to play the game with
a sense of danger ; for the true path is untrodden .
What's the alternative ?
To my mind the only alternative is to buckle under and
cower under the intimidatory power of those who's rules
would enslave me .
Long live the internet !
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:34:56 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: Anger therapy
Message:
MB, you said: 'There are demons who walk and talk amongst you .
But they project their demonic diatribes onto those they
have judged as criminals of humanity.'

Ahhh... Divide and conquer. Problem is, MB, we're already divided. We ARE individuals and from what I can see here, fully capable of making up our own minds individually. That's what makes a diverse group, such as this one, so powerful in searching for the truth. It doesn't matter what I think, it doesn't matter what Jim thinks, it doesn't matter what Rick thinks. What matters is that WE ARE THINKING and questioning and developing, as individuals who broke away from an incredibly destructive cult. As hard as it may be for you to accept, Jim and I (for example) are likely light-years apart on most opinions. We come from very different backgrounds and were, very likely, brought up in very different ways. We certainly have/had very different professions. He a lawyer, me a career military man. Those are about as far apart as they can be. What we do have in common is the sincere belief that M is an incredibly destructive influence. We know this from FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE. That particular life-experience, my friend, we DO have in common. As to what our subsequent 'philosophy of life' is, well that's another question. But, I'm pretty sure we are eons apart on that one, too. (and it doesn't matter a bit!)
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:57:38 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Anger therapy
Message:
Mike , guess what ?
I kind of agree with you .
You are presenting another bead onto the thread .
But nothing you are saying feels to me like a direct
contradiction to what I've said .
Just highlights the fucking complexity of it all .
Sugar and spice and all things nice !
If you can blend them ; all things can become nice .
Like dear Becky said in her above thread/post ,
things are not black and white .
Just as dear friend Bobby has been saying .
Just as lion hearted Keith tried to say .
Just as others who have posted here have tried to say .
But , there are those here who KNOW .
And Mike , it is so difficult to discuss with those who
KNOW.
For them there is only black and white and never the twain
shall meet .
But as long as such bigots speak out so they will be
confronted by those fair-minded ones who seek to know
without grabbing at simplistically distorted ideas.

Yes , you and Jim , for instance can speak freely here .
And I think I can too . And for that we all should be
thankful .
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:01:50 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundog@hotmail.com
To: M.B
Subject: Anger therapy
Message:
M.B.
So your not a premie, who are you, not your name but why are you here besides showing us our reflection in the mirror is demonic. That has you close to my heart already! Thanks.
I have never enjoyed games, head or board, thankyou again, so, no, I don't know how to play this game. Why don't you read me the rules?
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:22:27 (EDT)
From: M.b
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Anger therapy
Message:
Robyn , this game is create it as you go along .
The one golden rule is ; enjoy the game !
And if you feel close to my heart then you are on the
winning side .
No more clues ; wink , wink , nod , nod .
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:19:29 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: Anger therapy
Message:
Why Keith/MB, if you claim to LOVE Robyn, are being so rude to her at the same time?

Maybe you should 'open you sweet ears', too.

Best wishes,
Nigel
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:56:02 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: Pot Calls Kettle Black
Message:
Gee, MB, you are expressing quite a lot of anger and it's funny that you accuse others of doing the same thing. As you say, that's okay here. It isn't forbidden. In fact it's really healthy to express your anger. But now that you are so into expressing your anger against Jim and everyone else here, I doubt you would be surprised if you get a little back in your direction.

So, why do you hate Jim and Katie so much? Why ARE you so angry? Come on MB tell us your story.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 16:05:22 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Pot Calls Kettle Black
Message:
JW: Judging from 'all' of the previous posts in this thread, especially the last one to Robyn, I think MB is trying to get us to believe that the Big M has graced us with his presence (especially with that 'close to my heart' you're a winner thing). Figure the odds....
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 16:55:00 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Pot Calls Kettle Black
Message:
More evidence. Check this out. It came from a post in a thread further down called, 'OK the first one was oldhat':

'Good work TD.
And PT.
Blessings from MB.
OK ?'

Is this strange stuff, or what?
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 21:57:43 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Fuckwits are fuckwits.
Message:
I went to a video event last night .
Just for the hell of it.
Perhaps to watch my responses.
Two videos . About half an hour each.
Maharaji's words were a mixture of profound truth and
insidious indoctrinarian nonsense.
That's not a black and white demarcation.
It's a blend. Take the good stuff and throw out the rest.
But what I read on this forum is the same.
A blend. The same type of blend too.
Who is responsible for sifting , either in e.v or here?????
A premie fuckwit is equal to an ex-premie fuckwit .
A pound of butter or a pound of margarine ? That's a
matter of taste.
And there are obviously a lot of ex-premie fuckwits.
One tries to talk reasonably but eventually gives up .
The forum fuckwits deserve no better response than 'fuck you!'
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 22:05:25 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: Fuckwits are fuckwits.
Message:
Maharaji's profundity ..... go on, I'm listening.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 22:20:18 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fuckwits are fuckwits.
Message:
For instance oh wise seer ,
Maharaji spoke of the need to ask the big questions .
'Don't just follow the crowd ; ask your questions .
What is all this about ? ' and so on.
But it is not just in the words . It's the context .
It's the silence . The body and facial language .
Maharaji speaks from a clarity and from the experience he
refers to .
And yet he also indoctrinates one into believing in his
nonsense too .
As if he means , question everything else but not me .
His problem is essentially one of universal myopia.
He tells his flock to worship the telescope but not the
microscope.
The inner is portrayed as divine and the outer as shit.
Instead of encouraging his followers to seek for a way to
embrace the binary and the unitary .
But he does say many things that are very profound and
not to realise that is also stupid.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 03:30:23 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: M has Minuscule Content
Message:
'Don't just follow the crowd ; ask your questions .
What is all this about ? ' and so on.


You found this PROFOUND? I think M got these words from that song 'Alfie' from the 60s.

But it is not just in the words . It's the context .
It's the silence . The body and facial language .
Maharaji speaks from a clarity and from the experience he
refers to .


Yeah, the context and the silence can be really important. By 'silence' do you mean all those long pauses M puts between each simplistic statement he makes? Considering how little content there is in what he says, I guess those pauses become more significant.

How do you know he is speaking from clarity and experience? How do you know he isn't just repeating the same crap he's said for 25 years, perhaps with some toning down of the Hindu rhetoric over the years?

And yet he also indoctrinates one into believing in his
nonsense too .


Well, yes he does. Listen, every con man puts some truth in the con. He puts some stuff that actually makes sense to people. Otherwise no one would listen to him in the first place. That doesn't mean, however, that he actually delivers on any of what he says. Sure, maybe it makes sense to people that the truth is within you, which M says, but he uses that to trap people into believing he is the source of any inner experience. Since the 'true' statements are contaminated with deceit, it's all deceitful. In my opinion, even the 'profound' stuff he says is ridiculously simplistic and trite. It's only the long pauses that make it sound really profound.

Also, he says a lot of stuff that might not be either profound or deceitful, it's just nonsense.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 06:42:22 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: M has Minuscule Content
Message:
J.W ,
So where do we disagree ?
Not everyone here would agree with you that 'he' mixes a
little profundity in with the other .
The truth is within caper might be old hat to you , btw,
but for many who are lost out there , 'in here' , might be
a profound idea.
Maharaji is sincere.
Disprove it otherwise .
He may be not your cup of tea ; nor mine ; but for many he
is tasty enough.
Who are we J.W to say what is good or bad for others based
only on our own likes and dislikes ?
Well I do ; because I'm a fucking hypocrite ; but hey , I'm
in good company.
I would really dig a little real honesty.
If only we would get out of our own minds for a moment and
confess how little we know about what we prattle on about.
And how we all play games with each other ; which are nothing
more than one-up-manship.
No , that's not the whole story.
There is some stripping down that goes on too.
But some of these self-righteous mother fuckers who preach
their gospels of lies get me mighty aroused at times.

BTW ; I'm not Mel.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:49:21 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: M has Minuscule Content
Message:
>The truth is within caper might be old hat to you , btw,
but for many who are lost out there , 'in here' , might be
a profound idea.

This is certainly true.

And, even those who know about it forget.
A bit like visiting a city, being away for a while, then returning and realizing that things are not quite what you remembered.
Not complicated, but people do need to continually revisit.

CD
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:54:54 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: M has Minuscule Content
Message:
Not everyone here would agree with you that 'he' mixes a little profundity in with the other.

Maybe not, but you do. That's what you said in you previous post.

Maharaji is sincere. Disprove it otherwise .

I can't prove a negative, but I think for any intelligent person the burden of proof is on the other side. Indeed, you are saying that he mixes truth with nonsense. I think you would have to assume that he is therefore either sincerely ignorant of what he's doing, which implies a level of stupidity and self-deception that I cannot accept, or he is very insincere. I think I would tend to believe the latter.

Who are we J.W to say what is good or bad for others based only on our own likes and dislikes ?

You got it wrong, Mel. I have never said what is good or bad for others, only what is good or bad for me. But I think what I say about my experience with M is relevent and has some credibility, because I followed him for 10 years, doing exactly what he told me to do, devoted my entire life for that period, and I still think what he taught was basically crap, and also very destructive to me, my family and my life, and he did it all for his own selfish ends. It's a cult, Mel. That's not a good thing for people, despite the fact that he might speak a few pearls of truth now and then. It's all intertwined in a cult, which limits a person's ability to use their own judgment and to trust their own personal experience to separate the truth from his nonsense. You have to either swallow it all or get out. And people, like me, whaste much of their lives following him because that kind of programming keeps people trapped. That's not a good thing, in my experience, and lots and lots of ex-premies tell me they feel the same way.

If only we would get out of our own minds for a moment and confess how little we know about what we prattle on about. And how we all play games with each other ; which are nothing more than one-up-manship.

Well, here you sound like a premie. I don't want to get 'out of' my mind. It's part of me. It isn't the devil, evil, or bad. That is a myth taught by M (this is part of the destructive stuff he preaches). That mind/heart dichotomy is total bullshit. It caused me lots of pain and whasted energy.

I think, Mel, that you likely know quite a lot about M and his cult and the effect it had on you. That can be valuable information for you and others to consider.

'One-up-manship?' What are you talking about? Do you maybe have a little problem with confrontation, or people disagreeing with you?

But some of these self-righteous mother fuckers who preach
their gospels of lies get me mighty aroused at times.


Who are you talking about here, preaching lies? Maharaji? Yes, that gets me aroused too.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:35:23 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: m.b. can't read
Message:
m.b., have you ever posted here before under another name? Yes or no?

Anyway, you're a dunce fella. You wrote:

J.W ,
So where do we disagree ?
Not everyone here would agree with you that 'he' mixes a
little profundity in with the other .


And that surprised me. So I went back and read JW's preceding post and nowhere does he say that Maharaji says anything profound. Nowhere.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 22:22:02 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fuckwits are fuckwits.
Message:
Hey, I just realized...Fuckwits are fuckwits. Yes, how true, yes, I see it. It's a basic truism. Thank you for that Mel, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:41:46 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Fuckwits are fuckwits.
Message:
yes Gerry , but just to throw a bit of relativism into
the pot pouri ; some fuckwits are denser fuckwits than others ;
like you and jim for instance.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 22:17:33 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: M.B
Subject: ungratefulness is.............
Message:
I guess they didn't really allow your opinion at the program. You can always dump all your anger on the ex-premies here. So what if it takes the work of the webmaster... your ideas are more important, right? If you're really so important, we probably won't understand you- you might as well not post. Oh yes, maybe I'm just ungrateful for your insight. It must have taken alot of effort to phrase your entry correctly. Thanks again- you're right - maybe I should leave the ex-premies now too. Can I come stay with you?
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 22:33:19 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: ungratefulness is.............
Message:
You can't come and stay with me because then we would
form a new cult .
Who's ego is the most seemingly independent ?
Who's thoughts run amok the most?
Who's the reluctant messiah pretending to be oh so humble?
WHO WHO WHO ???
What game do we play ?
Who throws darts at Maharaji and pretends to be an innocent
victim ?
Who sets the agenda ?
And why?
Who the fuck are you?
And why?
How many fuckwits can you fit into a forum?
And why ?
How incoherent can a post get ?
And why?
How sane can an ex-premie appear and why?
Who will win the game and why?
So many questions ! And I've just begun.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:53:00 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: M.B
Subject: ungratefulness is.............
Message:
Isn't there, like, a premie forum for you to like, bliss out on premieji?

Gee and I thought you wanted to be close.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:13:11 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: ungratefulness is.............
Message:
Silly goon you ;
I'm an ex-premie-ji .
Just like you .
And we are close .
Can't you feel the heat?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 01:38:41 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: X-files
Message:
I'm just so embarassed about this Mel baby,
I'm going to be spending alot of time in therapy.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:25:08 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: Fuckwits are fuckwits.
Message:
Gee, M.B., you sure have a dirty mouth for someone so full of love! Are you trying to work the 'F' word into your vocabulary? When Keith was here last, he was working on 'dialectic.' Good luck with the word exercises!
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 03:35:06 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Fuckwits are fuckwits.
Message:
Micky , you son of god you ,
a few fuck type words expressed helps free up the soul ;
helps to pontificate instead of fornicate.
Be careful though ; G-- is watching!
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 04:34:35 (EDT)
From: x
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: get a life
Message:
You are one mixed up cookie MB, you claim to be an ex premie, yet you're still all starry eyed over bm. You think his little platitudes are clever and original, when actually they're tired and stale. I can get as much, if not more, wisdom from a Hallmark card. Maybe if you keep lurking around this forum, you might even be able to deprogram yourself from the brainwashing you got back in the 70's(I assume). At least you've got your foot in the door, you consider yourself an ex-premie, you state that bm says some stupid things, and youre hungrily devouring the tidbits offered here. Also the fact that Jim has struck such a nerve with you is probably a good sign. Have you ever considered exactly why you get so defensive(and offensive) over this forum? Maybe you should detach a little. Try some meditation, MB, because you are really in your mind, bad.
good luck x
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 06:01:33 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: x
Subject: get a life
Message:
Thank ye X ,
Wow , I needed that . You are one great mind reader .
Worked me out ; analysed me ; guided me .
See I'm so stuffed up ; so in my head , that I believe
Maharaji isn't the only bod who repeats tired old platitudes.
Good God , if it wasn't for the X's in this world .
'Try meditating you say , now there's a novel idea , where
have I heard that before ?
X , have you ever thought about taking one of Jim's courses. They are free . Perhaps the one where He instructs well meaning ones like yourself to give advice at the same time as fucking with their brains.
And X , please find out for me how I'm to get a life .
Have you got one ?
Lucky bugger ! I'm so in my mind .
Can you or Jim or any other enlightened one please tell me
how to get out of this fucked mind of mine?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:18:58 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: F***wits are f***wits.
Message:
M.B. sprayed the following on the wall: 'a few fuck type words expressed helps free up the soul'

Gee, I guess your soul must really be soaring by now!
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:51:03 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: F***wits are f***wits.
Message:
Come on Micky .
Say it !
Not f*** . FUCK .
It will help ; promise .
Say fuck , and then look upwards with piety and say ,
G** , PLEASE show me you still love me , your son
who has sinned.
Just trying to help.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:53:54 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Micky
Subject: F***wits are f***wits.
Message:
Just kidding Micky .
You have said fuck many times .
You are one cool son of a god.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:03:16 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: M.B--I'm so frustrated!!!
Message:
First, I can't get a word in edgewise on the thread about fighting, and now, I can't summon the appropriate response to your message. Jeez Louise, what's a f(what you said) to do? I'm just so frustrated.

It's a good thing we don't have a rule against name-calling around here, or you'd really be in for it, buddy. Why, if you were one of my kids, I'd bend you over my knee and, er, oh forget it. I can't spank children. Well anyway, you'd be in Time Out for a long, long time mister potty mouth.

Hey Jim, how come you're always flirting with everyone else except me?
eb
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:11:16 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: M.B--I'm so frustrated!!!
Message:
e.b , the thought of you putting me over your knee
and --- , sorry , I tend to get off on visuals .
You want jim to flirt with you ?
I'll pray for you my dear .
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:05:39 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: M.B--I'm so frustrated!!!
Message:
Hey Jim, how come you're always flirting with everyone else except me?

You don't know, do you? We've got plans for you, sweet thing.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:17:49 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: M.B--I'm so frustrated!!!
Message:
Laura , get your own back against that slut of a man of yours . What are you doing tonight sweet thing ?
Laura ?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 17:40:26 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: M.B--I'm so frustrated!!!
Message:
MB: Don't you think you might have gone a bit over-the-line on this one?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 17:43:31 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thank you, Jim
Message:
You made my day, dahling.

eb
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