Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 23 | |
From: Aug 26, 1998 |
To: Sep 22, 1998 |
Page: 3 Of: 5 |
Chuck -:- Knowledge -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 04:14:15 (EDT) __bill -:- The devil is in the details. -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 08:12:29 (EDT) __Jim -:- De Gustibus no Disputate -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 10:11:38 (EDT) ____Laura -:- De Gustibus no Disputate -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 19:59:55 (EDT) ______Mike -:- De Gustibus no Disputate -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 10:41:11 (EDT) ________Laura -:- Pathetic & Tragic -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 11:28:40 (EDT) __________Mike -:- Your take is... -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 11:49:01 (EDT) ____________Laura -:- Your take is... -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 12:03:21 (EDT) ______________Mike -:- No, but... -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 12:31:08 (EDT) ________________Mike -:- Additionally, -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 12:41:28 (EDT) __________________Laura -:- Additionally, -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 14:40:28 (EDT) ____________________Mike -:- IMHO means -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 14:59:01 (EDT) __JW -:- Knowledge -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 12:52:40 (EDT) ____Gerry -:- Knowledge -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 13:06:10 (EDT) ____Mike -:- Knowledge -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 13:55:25 (EDT) __Jim -:- Children of the corn -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 13:33:49 (EDT) ____a friend -:- Children of the corn -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:19:35 (EDT) ____Mike -:- Children of the corn -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:47:18 (EDT) ______Mike -:- Memorex.... -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 15:35:13 (EDT) ____Gail -:- You nailed it! -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 17:42:49 (EDT) ______Jim -:- You nailed it! -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 17:49:52 (EDT) ____Gerry -:- Children of the corn -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 22:36:16 (EDT) ______Jim -:- Children of the corn - Gerry -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 11:21:13 (EDT) ________Gerry -:- Kinder, Gentler -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 13:20:31 (EDT) __________Gerry -:- Kinder, Gentler -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 13:30:04 (EDT) ____________Gerry -:- More to the point. -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 14:26:06 (EDT) __Jerry -:- Knowledge -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:41:01 (EDT) x -:- chronic premie -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 01:26:09 (EDT) __Jean-Michel -:- chronic premie -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 03:38:43 (EDT) __Mike -:- so here we have... -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 15:21:04 (EDT) __leon -:- chronic premie -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 19:11:17 (EDT) ____Jean-Michel -:- Read that quote! -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 03:46:06 (EDT) __Diz -:- chronic premie -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 09:04:47 (EDT) Becky -:- Science v religion? -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:31:40 (EDT) __Mike -:- Welcome back... -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 14:09:41 (EDT) ____Mickey the Pharisee -:- Pardon me but I disagree..... -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 16:17:10 (EDT) ______Mike -:- You certainly can... -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 16:37:36 (EDT) ________Mickey the Pharisee -:- You certainly can... -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 16:50:01 (EDT) __________Jim -:- You certainly can... -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 17:16:28 (EDT) ____________JW -:- You certainly can... -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 17:34:23 (EDT) ______________Jim -:- words, words, words -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:00:45 (EDT) ________________JW -:- Christ as a Role Model -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:29:35 (EDT) ____________Mickey the Pharisee -:- You certainly can... -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:59:50 (EDT) ______________Jim -:- You certainly can... -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 19:17:08 (EDT) ________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- You certainly can... -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 20:39:55 (EDT) __________________Jim -:- You certainly can... -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 21:43:47 (EDT) ____________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- You certainly can... -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 21:52:55 (EDT) ______________________Jim -:- Watch it, bud -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 21:57:55 (EDT) ________________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Watch it, bud -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 00:20:15 (EDT) __________________________Mike -:- I watched the whole thing -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 15:51:43 (EDT) ______________________Jim -:- Bible's purpose -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 16:16:04 (EDT) ________________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Bible's purpose -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 17:55:07 (EDT) __________________________Sir David -:- The fall of Rome -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 05:47:18 (EDT) ____________________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- The fall of Rome -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 11:29:19 (EDT) ______________________________Mike -:- The fall of Rome -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 11:52:55 (EDT) ________________________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- The fall of Rome -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 15:23:48 (EDT) __________________________________Mike -:- The fall of Rome -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 15:50:38 (EDT) __________________VP -:- You certainly can... -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 23:54:30 (EDT) __________Mike -:- Ahhh...got me....pahdna -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:07:14 (EDT) __________VP -:- You certainly can... -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 00:42:51 (EDT) ____________Mickey the Pharisee -:- You certainly can... -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 00:51:00 (EDT) ____Scott T. -:- Welcome back... -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 22:44:55 (EDT) __VP -:- Science v religion? -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 14:59:03 (EDT) __Jim -:- Science v religion? -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 17:05:50 (EDT) ____Robyn -:- Jim -:- Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 17:40:24 (EDT) __Jerry -:- Science v religion? -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 13:19:05 (EDT) __corvus rosaceus -:- Science v religion? -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 18:46:22 (EDT) ____Becky -:- Fried brain and square eyes -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 13:26:05 (EDT) ______Mike -:- You missed my point -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 13:38:40 (EDT) ________Mike -:- Correction and additional info -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 14:20:52 (EDT) ______Jim -:- Thanks for the memo, Becky -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 10:27:49 (EDT) ________Becky -:- Accept what? -:- Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 07:22:53 (EDT) __________Mike -:- Accept what? -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 13:24:26 (EDT) ____________Becky -:- Accept what? -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 15:17:35 (EDT) ______________Mike -:- Stagnation -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 15:51:06 (EDT) Jean-Michel -:- Gain more old Indian Wisdom -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:00:59 (EDT) __Mike -:- Entraped -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:29:20 (EDT) ____Jean-Michel -:- Entraped: dozens of them -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 17:51:36 (EDT) __CD -:- Gain more old Indian Wisdom -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 15:00:10 (EDT) eb the groupy -:- Off Topic-I Got High Last Nite -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 12:41:44 (EDT) __Mike -:- High on what? he he -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 12:56:01 (EDT) ____eb -:- High on what? he he -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 14:51:02 (EDT) __Sir -:- I'm more than a little jealous -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:11:58 (EDT) ____Sir -:- Yours Is No Disgrace -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:20:43 (EDT) ______eb -:- John Anderson as Guru -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:50:58 (EDT) __Robyn -:- Off Topic-I Got High Last Nite -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:11:21 (EDT) eliza -:- a little jealous -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 00:41:25 (EDT) __Robyn -:- a little jealous -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 01:25:35 (EDT) ____Gregg -:- a little jealous -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 12:20:00 (EDT) ______eliza -:- a little jealous -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:12:32 (EDT) ______eliza -:- a little jealous -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:58:30 (EDT) ________eliza -:- a little jealous -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 04:21:52 (EDT) Sir David -:- No more divine light -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 20:54:52 (EDT) __Jerry -:- No more divine light -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 21:38:36 (EDT) ____Sir David -:- No more divine light -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 21:56:59 (EDT) ______Selene -:- No more divine light -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 23:20:38 (EDT) ______Jerry -:- No more divine light -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 23:37:18 (EDT) ________Sir David -:- No more divine light -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 06:41:23 (EDT) __________TD -:- No more divine light -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 08:23:19 (EDT) __________Jerry -:- No more divine light -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 10:16:34 (EDT) __________Judith -:- No more divine light -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 20:08:25 (EDT) ____________Gerry -:- No more divine light -:- Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 22:30:45 (EDT) __Robyn -:- light & nectar -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 01:34:25 (EDT) __Mike -:- Migraines -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 11:17:18 (EDT) ____Sir -:- Migraines - no thanks -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:01:18 (EDT) ______Mike -:- Please do keep -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:10:04 (EDT) JW -:- Loose Premies -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 20:03:43 (EDT) __Selene -:- Loose Premies -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 23:16:45 (EDT) ____JW -:- Loose Premies -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 12:47:57 (EDT) ______Mike -:- Loose Premies -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:06:40 (EDT) ______Selene -:- Loose Premies -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 16:35:44 (EDT) ________Mike -:- Loose Premies -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:24:26 (EDT) __________selene -:- I even left stuff out! -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:56:26 (EDT) ____________Mike -:- I believe you... -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 19:15:21 (EDT) ____________JW -:- I even left stuff out! -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 13:49:00 (EDT) ______________Selene -:- I even left stuff out! -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 15:56:00 (EDT) ________________Mike -:- Whew! -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 16:42:33 (EDT) __________________Selene -:- Whew! -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 19:26:53 (EDT) ____________________Mike -:- Whew! -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 19:48:43 (EDT) ______________I'm not telling -:- Some 90's Premies... -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 13:09:40 (EDT) ________________Mike -:- Some 90's Premies... -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 13:22:46 (EDT) ________________JW -:- Some 90's Premies... -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 14:18:13 (EDT) __________________CD -:- Some 90's Premies... -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 19:47:27 (EDT) __TD -:- Loose Premies -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 08:01:03 (EDT) ____petebear -:- Loose Premies -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 19:57:16 (EDT) ______Barney -:- Loose Premies in the 70s -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 01:31:17 (EDT) ______JW -:- Loose Premies -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 13:56:06 (EDT) ________Barney -:- Loose Premies -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 01:12:23 (EDT) __________JW -:- Loose Premies -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 12:53:00 (EDT) ____________Gerry -:- Loose Premies -:- Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 23:20:04 (EDT) Juan -:- Barcelona event -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 07:28:00 (EDT) __Mike -:- Barcelona event -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 11:06:00 (EDT) __Selene -:- Barcelona event -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 17:25:13 (EDT) __VP -:- Barcelona event -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 21:46:18 (EDT) __Gail -:- Barcelona event -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 18:13:36 (EDT) Brian -:- Feedback from another Ex -:- Sat, Aug 29, 1998 at 18:43:30 (EDT) __Judith -:- Feedback from another Ex -:- Sat, Aug 29, 1998 at 19:48:53 (EDT) __Sir David -:- Feedback from another Ex -:- Sat, Aug 29, 1998 at 21:20:06 (EDT) ____Jim -:- Feedback from another Ex -:- Sun, Aug 30, 1998 at 14:49:47 (EDT) ______Sir David -:- Well Jim -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 06:59:30 (EDT) ________Nigel -:- Correction -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 10:20:01 (EDT) ________Judith -:- Well Jim -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 19:36:12 (EDT) __________Rick -:- Identity Crisis -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 20:05:18 (EDT) __________Diz -:- identity crisis -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 20:57:38 (EDT) ____________Judith -:- identity crisis - to Diz -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 20:49:41 (EDT) ______________Diz -:- identity crisis - to Judith -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 08:29:38 (EDT) __________Sir David -:- Well Jim -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 21:49:26 (EDT) ____________Robyn -:- I forgot to tell you-light -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 22:35:19 (EDT) ____________Carol -:- Superstition... -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 18:31:16 (EDT) __Jim -:- Thanks much, Arthur -:- Sun, Aug 30, 1998 at 14:09:52 (EDT) ____JW -:- Arthur's Account -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 15:35:29 (EDT) ______Jim -:- Arthur's Account -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:06:11 (EDT) ________Gerry -:- Arthur's Account -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:37:46 (EDT) __________Jim -:- And what if you're wrong? -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 22:36:33 (EDT) ____________Gerry -:- And what if you're wrong? -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 10:11:27 (EDT) ______________VP -:- And what if you're wrong? -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 17:26:18 (EDT) ________________Gerry -:- to VP -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 17:47:59 (EDT) __________________VP -:- to Gerry -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 12:24:22 (EDT) ____________________Gerry -:- to VP -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 14:43:14 (EDT) ______________________VP -:- sex is great, M ain't-Gerry -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 15:07:08 (EDT) ____________Gerry -:- Inspired! -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:14:15 (EDT) ________JW -:- Arthur's Account -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:40:06 (EDT) __________Gerry -:- Arthur's Account -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:48:32 (EDT) __________Judith -:- Arthur's Account -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 20:57:40 (EDT) ____________Judith -:- Arthur's Account shd be TO JW -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 20:59:40 (EDT) ______Jim -:- Arthur's Account -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 22:15:16 (EDT) ________JW -:- Arthur's Account -:- Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 23:08:09 (EDT) __________Judith -:- Arthur's Account -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 21:09:18 (EDT) ____arthur chappel -:- Thanks much, Arthur -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 15:06:04 (EDT) __TD -:- A great journey... -:- Sun, Aug 30, 1998 at 17:56:05 (EDT) __Nigel -:- Wonderful. -:- Sun, Aug 30, 1998 at 20:28:39 (EDT) ____Nigel -:- Hyperventilation -:- Sun, Aug 30, 1998 at 20:50:14 (EDT) ______Mike -:- Hyperventilation -:- Sun, Aug 30, 1998 at 22:20:55 (EDT) ________Judith -:- Hyperventilation -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 00:54:24 (EDT) ______Diz -:- Hyperventilation -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 00:50:48 (EDT) ________Mike -:- Hyperventilation -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 10:35:29 (EDT) ______Rick -:- Hyperventilation -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 15:10:00 (EDT) ________Judith -:- Hyperventilation - to Rick -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 19:40:03 (EDT) __Diz -:- Feedback from another Ex -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 01:04:01 (EDT) __VP -:- Thanks, Arthur -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 14:17:04 (EDT) ____Arthur Chappell -:- Thanks, Arthur -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:56:41 (EDT) ______Judith -:- Thanks, Arthur -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 21:26:10 (EDT) |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 04:14:15 (EDT)
From: Chuck Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Knowledge Message: I am new to the internet. I use a friend's computer about once every 2 weeks. I read Mishler's thing and lots of stuff on forum. I received Knowledge 22 years ago (1976) and have practised it ever since. I have always been a hedonist. I do what gives me enjoyment. That is how I live my life. I saw the movie Titanic 6 times. I am excessive with things I like. I guess I am part of the Titanic cult. I talked to a an 11 year old girl with a Titanic shirt. She saw it 7 times. For those that cannot understand this phenomenon, I will explain it. Some people feel an incredible magic watching this movie which gives them one of the most beautiful experiences of their entire life and they will never be the same again. They adore the movie and others are upset by this devotion. Growing up I read a lot (self-improvement and all religions), and practised Kenpo karate (very devoted), Tai Chi, yoga, Zen and had fun. I never took drugs since they would slow my fighting reflexes and I was (still am) a health entusiast. Martial Arts is a whole lifestyle with reverence towards a teacher. (See movie Karate Kid). I personally think taking drugs is self destrucive, but I know most people have alot of self hate. Also I played sports and would go into an altered state where I was totally in the moment (see book Be Here Now), lost awareness of time, was extremely satisfied and nothing mattered to me. Psychology Magazine called it 'the flow experience.' So I never stopped playing the sport until I was forced to (other players stopped playing).I wanted to do this (mostly volleyball and soccer) 24 hours per day for the rest of eternity. I do not feel that beliefs of any kind will bring people happiness whether it be that Jesus is Lord or Maharaji is God or that in reality only one Supreme thing exists. Sometimes I sit and practise Knowledge many hours per day (similar to Catholics Saints praying and meditating most of day.) Our society considers this SICK. I don't care. I do it because it gves me sinfully exessive amounts of extreme enjoyment (Indian scriptures refer to superhuman enjoment). Indian culture worships people who sit and VEGITATE alot like me (how my witty mother refered to it). Our society would prefer me to be rich and famous like Mike Tyson and bag lots of babes (Wilt Chamberlin did over 1,000) or go clubbing, or dancing,or play bridge, or read alot or play music or for the latest thing that people do in their quest for enjoyment and happiness- be an internet devotee. In response to people wondering why Maharaji makes no references to all to all those cultish things talked about on this website, Maharaji said several months ago that he said that Knowledge was beyond cultures but he was trying to import the Indian culture into other cultures which he now considers to be very bad and inconsiderate. (My note-you have heard of cultural shock). Everything is still the same in India ie the darshan, arti, ashrams etc. The Indian culture is very different than ours with lots of incarnations of God like Krishna, Rama, Buddha, Jesus, Guru Nanak, Ramakrishna etc. If you talk against these gus in India, you could get hurt. Here merely mentioning them means you are posessed by the devil (I saw The Exorcist). At least Maharaji did not try to import the Turkish custom of cutting off the hand for stealing or selling drugs. I bet thats gotta hurt. In Muslim countries if you talk against Allah, it is morally wrong NOT to kill you. In our culture God is omnipresent so how can a person be God? I can see around Maharaji. When I was 9 my mother showed me a newspaper article and said 'have you ever heard anything more ridiculous than this if your life?' It said 'over one million people in India believe that this 8 year old boy is God.' Here it is ridiculous. Over there they have instructions on how to recognise the incarnation of God everytime (certain traits). Over there they all know who Balyogeshwar (born Lord of the yogis) is. It is short for Balyogeshwar Paramhans Satgurudev Shri Sant Ji Maharaj. Maharaji used the only way that his father used to spread Knowledge to a million people (all in India). Right now millions of people around the world beleive Satya Sai Baba, in India, is God. Lots of books on him sold here. Maharaji now says to give Knowledge a fair chance and if you don't like it, you can leave with no hard feelings. He just gave it to his eldest daughter and said that it is up to her what she does with it. Also he says that he has more than enough people in India joining the ashrams because in that culture, at a certain age all Indians are supposed to do that. In Turkey, if you stop practising Knowledge they cut off your hand and poke out an eye in keeping with that culture. No, just kidding. What is important to me is- I feel good. What else is really important? Some of the things that were made fun of on this website brought back fond memories for me. I could tell many amazing stories that happened to me. I can not judge any of you because I know I am unique. I never respected peer pressure from anyone including premies. Many of them tried to get me to stop meditating so much. They tried to lay all these trips on me. Maybe one time I accidentally did something very good that caused me to be blessed and be the luckiest peron alive and feel lots of magic in my life. I felt this at a young age (way before Knowledge). I am 42 and half Russian Jewish and half Irish Catholic. We celebrated both Christmas and Chanukah. My family showered lots of love on me and treated me like I was very special. My mother gave me lots of positive feedback. When I was a baby, my grandmother was an extremeist in doing the thing that she loved doing most of all- holding me! If Maharaji was the greatest incarnation of God ever and I am unhappy, that would suck. If I am happy and Maharaji is the greatest incarnation of evil to ever set foot on this planet, then that is nice. Why would I want to begrudge him having fun in his life. I like the music of Mariah Carey, Celine Dion, Boyz to Men and Elton John. When it comes to comedy I feel that Jerry Seinfeld is God. His show was also (like Titanic) a phenomenon. I also saw that movie (Phenomenon) with my 2nd favorite Scientologist- John Travolta (my favorite one is Tom Cruise). Something About Mary is the funniest movie ever. Titanic is by far the best movie ever made. The ad for Titanic said 'this is nothing you have seen. This is nothing you have felt. This is something you will never forget.' In closing Nimrod sings 'life is unpredictable but in the end its right. I hope you had the time of your life.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 08:12:29 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Chuck Subject: The devil is in the details. Message: You might be 42, but you aren't half russian jew and half irish catholic. Thats just two misperceptions of identity and two misperceptions of life by groups of people that want to propogate thier own separate false specialness. They are stuck viewing life through thier lenses until what? maharaji comes and frees them from that and upgrades them to the master/student relationship and shows them the door to the ashram? A good attitude can sail you through life certainly, and you have one today. But that does not mean that your slant on things is 100% accurate. Your 'society' doesn't want you to have money and treat women like mike tyson. We want you to have money because it allows you to play ball all day long and have a place to go home to. And we (your society) wants you to treat your women like you wanted some guy to treat your grandma when whe was young. The hindu scriptures say very little about enjoyment and say a lot about how to limit a womens enjoyment of life and how to judge your nieghbor and mistreat him because the 'supremely enjoying' religious genius leaders pretended there were 4 castes, and good luck getting rid of that. When maharaji treats woman like he does, and elevates himself above others when there is no reality to back that up, is that what 'supreme enjoyment' brings? there is a saying, 'the devil is in the details'. If you can sail on in life and not get too ensnared by the ideas of the other humans, that's great, a bit hard to do, and rare, But really, the crap level of the groups you mention is deep and awful and if you can just skate across it that is good. The scientologists are totally into fantasy, and web sites exist to alert people to the reality of that- to save others from having to go through the whole deal and waste time. Why should maharaji have ashrams anywhere? let those people be free to live thier own lives. He is not worthy of directing peoples lives like that. Maybe our resident initiator can tell you about all the countries in the west that feet kissing has come back in. So much for the 'cultural' excuse. Sounds like the only group you dismiss is the 'jesus is lord' group. What makes the rest warrent your approval? I hope i'm not being too much on your first posting. Welcome. I liked your effort at sailing above the details of the things that could sink you titanic style. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 10:11:38 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Chuck Subject: De Gustibus no Disputate Message: It's been a while, but isn't that Latin for 'there's no discussing taste'. Actually, as a kid I always thought it was 'BAD taste', 'There's no discussing bad taste'. Chuck, I'm not sure if that's true or not, that there's no point discussing taste, so, being that I'm not sure, let me say this -- you've got the shittiest taste I've ever seen a grown man admit to. It's like, somehow, all those years with Maharaji have made you a fake Gump or something. You're obviously intelligent enough to string a few sentences together but something's wrong. Have you ever heard of Chris Dickey, by chance? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 19:59:55 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: Jim/Chuck Subject: De Gustibus no Disputate Message: I have limited time to read/write on this forum and it is one of my favorite places in the whole world to spend time - Jim, you always make me laugh, I really like your words and the way you think. And Chuck, my goodness, you see too many movies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 10:41:11 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Laura Subject: De Gustibus no Disputate Message: Laura: A guy in New York was standing outside a theatre, that was showing Titanic, selling tee-shirts that read, 'IT SANK...Get over it!' He said he was doing it in reponse to the amount of emotion that the movie is evoking. Apparently he sold 500 tee-shirts in less than a few hours (at 10 bucks apiece!). Pretty funny, eh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 11:28:40 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: Mike Subject: Pathetic & Tragic Message: Actually I thought the movie was too long and quite pathetic. The story of Titanic was made into a romance, because that's what people buy, romance. I don't believe in romantic love, it disappoints me every single time (although to be very honest a part of me would still like to experience it again). The tragedy of Titanic was the display of the baseness of human nature. Raw fear stopped people from helping each other. I was revolted by it. I promised myself after seeing this movie that if I were ever involved in a situation similar to that, I would rise above my own fear and see more of the total scene, hopefully enabling me to act out of clarity instead of reacting out of fear. I was living in NY with a premie, about 1974, when the walls of the apartment we lived in suddenly spewed ash and the air started filling with smoke. We then heard fire engines and realized our building was on fire. My friend and I, living on the 6th and top floor of this building, knocked on every single door of this building yelling 'fire, get out now', thinking we were alerting our neighbors. When we reached the street we were surprised to see all of our neighbors already there. No one had alerted us, they had just deserted the building. At least they didn't block our exit from the building. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 11:49:01 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Laura Subject: Your take is... Message: Laura: Not that I would have want anyone in a war zone (certainly not my friends), but I would 'serve' with you anytime. Believe me, that is the very best thing that I can say about anyone! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 12:03:21 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: Mike Subject: Your take is... Message: Thanks Mike, that's a brave thing to say. Why do you say that about me? Do you know me? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 12:31:08 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Laura Subject: No, but... Message: Laura: No I don't know you personally, but I'm not bad at 'judging' character from what people say and write. YOU have really impressed me with your honesty and forthright manor. Don't be so hard on yourself, I think you are REALLY a good person (and the more you write, the more I'm convinced of it!). (IMHO) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 12:41:28 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Laura Subject: Additionally, Message: Laura: Sorry, I forgot to answer your very specific first question with a specific answer. I said that because you put the value other 'lives' above your own. That is a very hard attribute to foster in anyone. What you did was a very dangerous thing. It's easy when it's a family member (the dna-survival-instinct-thing kicks in), but when it involves people that you don't know, it's a conscious choice that you have made. It says more about your character than anything I can imagine. (Again, IMHO). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 14:40:28 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: Mike Subject: Additionally, Message: Mike, what is IMHO? I don't know about putting the value of other lives above my own. What I believe/think in dangerous situations, is that it is my responsibility to keep a clear head and guide others. i don't believe i'll actually die in a situation, i'm a survivor. After all, i survived being a premie for umpteen years, then i can survive just about everything else. And I enjoy reading your posts too - I agree that personalities come through. The anymonity afforded by the forum lets us be very real, outgoing, even aggressive, testing our thoughts and belief systems out loud. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 14:59:01 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Laura Subject: IMHO means Message: Laura: In My Humble Opinion. As to the rest of your post: The survival instinct helps to prevent us from thinking about our own death in a dangerous situation. We KNOW we will survive. But, the reality of the situation is that YOU put it on-the-line to save others from burning to death. The reality of the situation is that YOU could have burned to death. The reality of the situation is that YOU made a conscious choice to do what you did. By the way, most 'heros,' or people 'guilty' of heroic acts, never relate to themselves as such. They say things like, 'anyone would have done the same,' etc, etc. The problem with that statement is that YOU, yourself, said that EVERYONE was out on the street when you got there. NONE of them did what you did (or you would have heard them or run into them in the process)! Hey...come on...take the compliment. YOU REALLY DO DESERVE IT....IMHO. - SO THERE...see you ARE a good person! he he he. Gotcha! ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 12:52:40 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Chuck Subject: Knowledge Message: Good for you that you are so blessed and hedonistic and that you get all your gratification needs met, even if you do say so yourself. Hey, Chuck, did anyone ever suggest to you that you are just a tad egotistical and self-centered? I didn't notice that your varied interests extend to doing anything for anyone other than yourself. Perhaps you are the perfect candidate for Maharaji's cult. The cult of TOTAL self-absorption and total obsession with your own experience and gratification and total lack of any interest in anything or anyone else except Maharaji. Yes, a perfect candidate for the cult because you are so much like Maharaji himself. Maharaji said several months ago that he said that Knowledge was beyond cultures but he was trying to import the Indian culture into other cultures which he now considers to be very bad and inconsiderate. If this is true, it sounds like the Big M might be admitting he screwed up big time. Has he ever apologized for being so 'bad' and 'inconsiderate?' Who did he say this to? How big of him. Has he also ever mentioned that thousands of people had their lives messed up by his insistence on total dedication and surrender, living in his ashrams, and those other 'imports' from Indian culture he laid on us for a good 13 years? Has he ever taken any responsbility for this? Everything is still the same in India ie the darshan, arti, ashrams etc. I don't know much about India, JM is more aware of that, but I would note he gave darshan in Australia recently, so he still does that 'inconsiderate' India import in the West, too. At least Maharaji did not try to import the Turkish custom of cutting off the hand for stealing or selling drugs Yes, I am counting my blessings. Chuck, this little gem falls into the category of 'damning by faint praise,' or 'at least it wasn't a lot worse.' Maharaji now says to give Knowledge a fair chance and if you don't like it, you can leave with no hard feelings. This is idiotic. Remember the tons of rotten vegetables satsang? Recall Maharaji saying that if you left devition to the perfect master you would go to hell? He always spoke out of both sides of his mouth on this one. Even if he is saying this currently, it's a big departure from what he used to say. Has he ever explained the contraction? Has he ever apologized for scaring the shit out of this devotees for many years, especially if that's not what he really meant? I never respected peer pressure from anyone including premies. Apparently you didn't respect it from Maharaji either. Good for you, but it's a little surprising you would just ignore what your lord and master was telling you to do. We should have all been so lucky. Chuck, the word 'revisionism' always comes to mind when I read stuff like you wrote. But, whatever gets you through the night, as they say. It seems that premies who just ignored what Maharaji said and didn't do anything he demanded, are the most satisfied with him, why thousands of those who did think he is a fat fraud. Funny how that works. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 13:06:10 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: JW Subject: Knowledge Message: If you fell for the bullshit, it's YOUR problem. Quit blaming M. You had free will. You chose what to believe. This guy has a good time, so what? He's supposed to save the world? I say let him be. It's his life, his reality. To each, his own. Chrrrist!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 13:55:25 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: JW Subject: Knowledge Message: JW: BULLSEYE! Dead-center 'X'! Good shootin', pahdna! he he he. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 13:33:49 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Chuck Subject: Children of the corn Message: Chuck, In my other reply to your post I only teased you about having terrible taste and, for some strange reason, reminding me of Chris Dickey ('CD'). I mention CD because he, too, seems corny to a point almost beyond imagination. If this were a play or movie, no one would believe the CD character. It's a little early to say but it's possible that you'd seem a bit far-fetched yourself. Let's try to figure this out, shall we? You write: I do what gives me enjoyment. That is how I live my life. I saw the movie Titanic 6 times. I am excessive with things I like. I guess I am part of the Titanic cult. I talked to a an 11 year old girl with a Titanic shirt. She saw it 7 times. For those that cannot understand this phenomenon, I will explain it. Some people feel an incredible magic watching this movie which gives them one of the most beautiful experiences of their entire life and they will never be the same again. They adore the movie and others are upset by this devotion. Now, Chuck, this IS interesting. You know, don't you, that most 42 year-olds don't quite take to that movie like you have. Most, I'd imagine, find it technically impressive, pleasing, dramatic and grabbing in places (the destruction, of course) and, in retrospect, a few days after seeing it perhaps, rather formulaic (the stupid love story) and cloying. Like, most 42 year olds DON'T 'feel an incredible magic watching this movie'. It does NOT give most 42 year-olds 'one of the most beautiful experiences of their entire life.' Sad or not, it's a fact that most 42 year-olds will indeed 'be the same again', even if they, for some reason, see the film twice. So what's different about Chuck? And what, if any, light might the answer to that question shed on another: how did CD get that way? Chuck, when I first moved into the ashram, at 19 in 1973, I tried to sacrifice any notion of myself as 'cool'. 'Cool', 'sexy', these were selfish accolades for the wordly persona I now knew was illusory. Real 'cool' meant being unafraid to come to the Lord as a 'guileless' child, innocent beyond self-consciousness, pure, clean. The mind was dirty but I could, if I trusted enough and availed myself of the divine support my sweet Lord offered, ignore its ignorance and focus, instead, on the purity inside. Give up the sharpness, cultivate warmth. Share the love, love the sharing. Be like a child, be like a child, let go and let the Lord move me like his graceful leaf falling through the gentle, gift of warm, happy, sweet, fresh air. 'Jai Sat Chit Anand, Mr. Sunbeam!' 'Jai Sat Chit Anand, premie-Ji!' 'Isn't this a beuatiful day, Mr. Sunbeam? Our Lord, the same who made me and you, by His infinite mercy, will come to give us satsang again this afternoon, by His grace. But even that is only his Lila. I wait for nothing, Mr. Sunbeam, but feel his grace even now. He is here. He is lila. In truth, I know, we are not separate, brother Sunbeam, for you and I are but reflections of his grace on the ocean of his merciful creation. Now, I have sat on my sleeping bag (which I am not attached to and only laugh when I think about how 'mindful' I became when my housemother bought it for me. As IF it mattered whether she got the one that was good for temperatures down to twenty degrees below freezing. As you yourself said in satsang last night, Lord, you give us these things as TOOLS, not toys. There's no point 'getting into' my sleeping bag, it's just an empty possession. And there I made a joke, by your Grace, and I didn't even try to! Oh my Lord, you are so merciful! 'But now, by your grace, I will walk over to the tap and brush my teeth. I am feeling your Holy Name so beautifully now, Lord, you are so close to me. Life is magic. I am so full of love. 'Look at that sister over there! Look at that face. That's the kind of face I ..... 'Holy shit, the mind, Maharaji! My crazy mind! Oh Lord, I am truly the craziest of all your devotees! Oh Lord, keep me so close to you. Let me talk with her just a bit. Here, I've got to hurry up a bit.... No, relax, give it up! Meditate, feel your breath. I wonder if she's in the ashram somewhere. Lots of premies are leaving the ashram. Oh I love her, I think this is real. You, sister, can you feel me loving you in the Holy Name over here? Oh Maharaji, please, let me ... let me meditate! 'Oh Lord, I don't WANT this crazy mind! Please, if I ever think I'm too sophistacated to love you, please Lord, remind me that we are all children. Let me be a child of love, Lord. Like that kid's book, At The Back of the North Wind, let me be your secret, eternal child.' Chuck, I figure that's what happens to people in this cult. They cultivate childlike qualities. Only then can they appreciate Maharaji's stupid jokes, his empty message, the sickly music, the simplistic revisionism. It's all feigned. And yet, do it long enough, I guess it becomes second nature. Your eleven year old friend will grow up. In twenty or thirty years, if she ever sees that movie again, she'll appreciate its limitations. Is it sad for kids to realize there's no Santa? What's the alternative? I guess, never tell them the story in the first place. But, as you know, kids' imaginations are just suckers for the fantastic. Adults, on the other hand, are supposed to know better. Chuck, it sounds like you're certainly beyond reach and serve best as a cautionary tale: follow this guru long enough and you, too, might like Boys II Men, Celine Dion and Mariah Carey. I guess, Chuck, we could add that 'you'll laugh way too hard and too long at really stupid jokes told by the guru and you'll actually smile like an idiot when you see him dance like a giant, mutant grub.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:19:35 (EDT)
From: a friend Email: None To: Jim Subject: Children of the corn Message: I just love 'dance like a giant, mutant grub' the best description I've heard yet! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:47:18 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: Children of the corn Message: Jim: I kid you not(!), that was the best rendition of 'premie thought process' that I've ever heard. That struck DEEP! I swear that I have thought those exact thoughts, before. Is it 'LIVE' or is it memorex..... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 15:35:13 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: Memorex.... Message: Jim: I figured it out, it's not 'live' and it's not 'memorex,' it's 'memory-of-an-EX'..... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 17:42:49 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jim Subject: You nailed it! Message: Wow! Your sections about devotion, etc. above could have been me. I can still hear myself thinking and saying that sort of stuff. When I would start to think, I would concentrate really hard on my breath and imagine windshield wipers waving away my thoughts. I often used to think about being dead so that I wouldn't have to try anymore. Do you remember the time Joan Apter said the same thing. She mentioned that she was on a plane and thought about opening the hatch and jumping out even though she knew it would be impossible. Of course, she attributed it to her crazy mind. To think we wasted even 5 minutes on that fraud. PS Did you get your parcel yet? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 17:49:52 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gail Subject: You nailed it! Message: Gail, Thanks for all that. No, no parcel yet. That's Canada Post for you, I guess. I promise I'll let you know as soon as I get it. By return mail, of course. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 22:36:16 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Children of the corn Message: Jim, Even if you now hate my guts, this is hilarious! Good job by the master of sarcasm and cutting humor (I mean humour). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 11:21:13 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Children of the corn - Gerry Message: Gerry, I don't 'hate your guts' but I do think you're fucking up here a bit. And I find it puzzling. I find it hard to reconcile the asshole you've been recently with first Arthur, then JW, with the nice guy I met this summer. Really. Let's say you met Arthur in person and he told you some of the things you either didn't believe or agree with. I can't for the life of me imagine you reacting like you have here. All I can see you doing, if you chose to express yourself, is questioning him, maybe even teasing him a bit. You find the girl/ship story far-fetched? You'd say as much -- probably with some humo(u)r -- and give him a chance to address your skepticism. The fact is, we've all heard of much stranger coincidences I'm sure. Yes, maybe it wasn't true but maybe it was. You had absolutely no right, as far as I'm concerned, blasting Arthur right off the the bat as a liar. I mean, even if you happen to be right, it would still be just a lucky guess on your part. You didn't KNOW and acting as if you did just made you look like an idiot, quite frankly. As for Arthur's aversion (?) to sex, I don't know. Maybe you were just so hot on the notion that you were dealing with a 'convicted' liar to begin with -- again, all your mistake -- that maybe you just lost all common sense. The fact is, there, too, you're completely off base. Arthur's sexual 'hangup' doesn't make him any of the thnigs you've called him. You just ended up looking like an ignoramus in your analysis and a complete prick in your denouncement of him. Sorry, Gerry, but it's true. I was really disappointed to read your shit and shit it was. I just have to ask you, has Patty read any of that discussion? I'd be amazed if she supported you in the slightest in any of it. Well actually, I take that back. She might have initially agreed with you that Arthur's girl/ship story SEEMED suspicious. She might have agreed that his sexual history seems a little strange. AND she might have even agreed with you that everything Arthur writes seems 'bloated' or however your described it. But I'd bet a fair bit of money that, at most, she'd note those responses as initial and tentative and not the firm, daming conclusions you've jumped to. I think you've got some serious thinking to do on this one, Gerry. Mind you, tat's just my opinion. Maybe you see yourself blazing new trails of clarity or something. I sure don't. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 13:20:31 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Kinder, Gentler Message: Let's pretend I just read The Last Tabboo(sic) and other Arthurisms for the first time. I just took a nice pill, so now I would say: Gee, I don't know. The guy seems awfully sex negative. His views on sexuality seem quite distorted. This makes me question where he's coming from. (No pun intended.) I was surprised to see that he thinks sports, competition and capitalism are bad things. And that Renoir is a pornographer. And that girl/ship story sounds a little fishy to me. (Pun intended.) It's really OK with me that he lives with his parents at age thirty six. Lot's of guys do, I guess. But he really should have reported that ped. Might have saved some other kids a lot of misery, even if he himself was able to scare the man off. Lots of eleven year olds scare adult men. Maybe he has a little problem with self esteem, calling himself a ''hippo wallowing in the mud.'' Makes you wonder if some of the things he writes might be a tad puffed up to boost a faltering ego. But I don't know, I never finished college, so anything I say doesn't count. I'll have to take anything this fellow says with a grain of salt. Ah, but what the heck, He's Anti M say he has to be OK. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 13:30:04 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Patty Subject: Kinder, Gentler Message: Uh, Patty, yoo hoo. What do you think? Patty? Patty? Ah heck she's got her nose stuck in that damn computer book studying for one of those worthless and light weight Microsoft (gasp!) certifications like that dummy CD has. And preparing for a new job interview. What's wrong with that girl? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 14:26:06 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: More to the point. Message: Actually Jim, I was quite content to leave the Arthur thing alone and keep my opinions to myself UNTIL you told me to 'quit being an asshole' This goaded me on. I wouldn't have bothered to read his grotesque ''Tabboo'' article without your ''asshole'' provocation. What did I do to JW besides disagreeing with him? Oh, yeah, I called him an asshole. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:41:01 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Chuck Subject: Knowledge Message: You say that Maharaji is changing his act and removing the Hindi culture from Knowledge here in the west. It's true, these days he asks only 3 things of premies. 1) Don't show K to anyone, 2) Give Knowledge a chance, 3) Keep in touch. That's a far cry from what it used to be. But still, what's the big deal if you show Knowledge to someone? What harm will be done? He's never said. But the paranoia is rampant on what might happen if you do. What does he mean by give Knowledge a chance? When do you give up on it? So far as I know, M has never said. He only says that if you're having a problem with Knowledge, it's because you can't accept it. He makes you feel stupid and ignorant if you're struggling with Knowledge. He doesn't provide any real assistance. Why does he want you to keep in touch? Are we too stupid to remember how to practice these techniques? Are we incapable of judging for ourselves their value or lack of which is often the case? Don't kid yourself that M is taking a more human slant on this thing. He still wants to remain very much in control and is very much into being the master. He never wants to let go of that and he never wants you to let go of him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 01:26:09 (EDT)
From: x Email: None To: Everyone Subject: chronic premie Message: I had an interesting encounter today with an old school premie I've known since the 70's. He started to give me satsang, the old fashioned kind, and I could feel the seductive force of it drawing me in. It was funny how all his stories and examples were the same rehash I've heard from all the others, and big m. He knew them all, he said using the tecniques without devotion to m was like vacuuming with an unplugged vacuum. I asked him about service, and he said sending rawatt money equals service, helping to spread the knowledge. This guy lives on public assistance, but credits his survival to m rather than taxpayers. I pointed out that lots of people recieve entitlements, who dont even know who m is. He said the world is a dark bad place and knowledge protects him blah blah. I asked him about people who were happy and enjoyed life without k and he replied that those people just think they're happy and that they're happiness depends on external things whereas he is happy from an internal source. All this stuff sounds great, if you dont know whats really going on. I imagined how seductive these things would sound to a neophyte. I was halfway ready to rejoin the fold, then I remembered that I, perhaps unfortunately, live in reality(in my mind?) The thing with rawatts world, is it's so negative. Maharaji always disses everything about the outside world, and claims that so called normal people are stupid and clueless. I dont even know where I'm going with this, so I'm going to just end it here. regards x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 03:38:43 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: x Subject: chronic premie Message: Maharaji always disses everything about the outside world, and claims that so called normal people are stupid and clueless. Don't you think that HE is not 'normal'? He's trying to survive in his old Indian cultish world - because he's born into it, and we've joined him because we were not satisfied with the 'world' either at some point in our lives? Then we've watched his magical professional show - Dr Lord's Circus (remember that old story?), learned his 'wisdom' listening to his theories and fairy tales, believed in them as the Truth, and there we are, completely re-programmed in that new cultish culture. I very likely have a tendency to make friend with people having the same problem as me, and he is the perfect example of someone living in a total fantasy, completely separated from the 'world'. There are many people like him, not all of them so attractive. He is the 'living proof' that you can succeed and thrive in this imaginary world (thanks to those who give him money and allow him to do so), and we were ready to believe in the whole thing. The problem is that there can be only one person thriving in this system. He's the producer of the show, you pay for it in every sense of the word, and you enjoy it for whatever it's worth: Indian magic. Doesn't take you anywhere. This is how I now understand it for myself, otherwise I can't find any reason why I've been sucked into this BS for so long. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 15:21:04 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: x Subject: so here we have... Message: X: So here we have a guy, on public assistance, sending money he can't afford to lose, to a guy (M) that apparently doesn't pay any taxes despite his ludicrously luxuriant lifestyle. What's wrong with THIS picture? Hmmmm.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 19:11:17 (EDT)
From: leon Email: None To: x Subject: chronic premie Message: I have been tempted by the snake-like, elusive talk of bongo premies like your pal also. I remember what a therapist told me once about my ponderings. To be in a cult requires a splitting off off the psyche. What then is repressed and depressed comes out in other ways. It is called a 'gurunoid' persona. The feeling of not being worthy of the master comes from a place of deep pleading. The pleading is for little drops of mercy. One remains truly unworthy and in a state of longing when in this type of guru/disciple relationship. short cuts have limitations. A fellow abstainer. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 03:46:06 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: leon Subject: Read that quote! Message: In my quest for old stuff, I stumbled on that one: Submersion of the mind into the Divine Light, obedience and service to the Satguru with supreme Love for Him, consecration of body, mind and all activities to Him, constitute sublime devotion. Hence is ensured perpetual peace, eternal bliss and salvation within this lifetime. There is absolutely no other way to achieve them. (Param Hans Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj - June, 1961, Prem Nagar Ashram) .... and I'm using it now as a motto on my homepage at: Nothing's changed since Prem Nagar Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 09:04:47 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: x Subject: chronic premie Message: Hi x Don't let 'em get to ya, mate. I find one problem with premie encounters is that their pat answers resonate with all the conditioning I've absorbed over the years I've gone to programs, hung out with premies, etc. Are you the x with the premie mum? If so, you must have copped quite a socialisation process, all mixed up with premie-think. From inside the premie world, it all makes sense - there's an internal logic which kinda fits together if you don't challenge some basic assumptions, such as that to experience K is the only worthwhile thing in life. I find I can still slip back into that old framework, particularly when lectured by someone who believes that worldview one hundred percent, who does indeed leave no room for doubt in their mind, and who therefore comes on as unchallengable, right, sincere, overbearing and self-righteous. Your arguments are valid. Living on welfare is not a sign that MJ's grace is great (let alone a sign that he's therefore the most wonderful person in the world and that we all should follow him). People are happy without K, and it's real. I know lots of them. Hey, I am one of them. Personally, I like my vacuum cleaner unplugged, if plugging it in means I have to submit to an authoritarian system, and keep my questions to the 'why are you so beautiful' variety. The world isn't perfect, that's for sure, but I know I interact every day with people that are just great. I agree that MJ is really negative. If K is so great, then why does he need to put other things down?? Surely it should be able to stand on its own merits. Dissing everything but K and MJ means limiting your life to a ridiculous extent, I reckon. Believe in your own wisdom, x. I think it's a lot sounder than your premie friend's Love Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:31:40 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Science v religion? Message: Jim, I'm not dissing science, and sure I'll check out the exact meaning of the words that mean embryo and sperm - since there are many translations of the Qur'an. Science hasn't finished and nor has Islam - science evolves and religion evolves, and the two aren't necessarily disconnected or opposed. Your fervour for your point of view certainly does seem to verge on the religious. By the way, on a slightly different tack: what led you to Maharaji, and what were your feelings and beliefs then? Your journey is quite impersonal. - don't take that as an insult. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 14:09:41 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Becky Subject: Welcome back... Message: Becky: If I may stick my nose into this one just a bit. Don't you think that ANY religion that bases its belief system on an 'old' book will, by its nature, tend towards non-evolution? It's pretty hard to square the biblical account of creation with science, particularly the way the bible is currently interpreted. Jeez, that account is about 4000 years old and it doesn't appear to have 'evolved' at all, in my opinion. There are many, many, many people that believe that god created the earth in six earth-days. We KNOW that's bull. I don't see Islam doing any better with the koran. If Islam had evolved, wouldn't you expect the clothing to have, at the very least, changed? I know that isn't a 'great' example, but it gives one pause to think. What I see in mainstream Islam is an attempt to turn back the clock; devolve, if you will. I don't see ANY religion racing towards the future, Islam included. YOU may be an exception, but if that's the case, then you can't possibly be interpreting the koran the same way as the mainstream. In other words, you would appear to be making up your own religion and basing it on Islamic principles; which isn't necessarily bad, but it would clarify your position concerning Islam a little bit. IMHO. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 16:17:10 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Mike Subject: Pardon me but I disagree..... Message: Mike, I want to let you know that the majority of Christians in mainline churches do not believe that God created the world in six days, most accept the two creation stories in Genesis to be myth. The so-called Creation Scientists are pretty much a fringe group in Christianity and are seen as irrational by Christians, too. My professor in my systematic theology class starts his first lecture talking about how there were several millenia when the only living thing on the planet was blue-green algae. Even Origen, an early Church Father, did not read the Bible literally; biblical fundamentalism is a product of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries and is a reaction to the acceptance of Darwin and science among theologians and clergy. The Bible is interpreted in many ways, not just in the style of the literalists. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 16:37:36 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: You certainly can... Message: MP: I, by no means, meant that ALL christians believe that way, but you have to admit that there are a very large number of those that do. The Baptists are a very large group that, on the whole, believe in the 'literal' bible creation story. I know that your church (because of the friend I told you about) and the presbyterians and maybe even the catholics take a more modern view, but I maintain that an extremly large number believe the bible, literally. In fact, Mickey, I think the number of people that follow that line is growing. I'm not an expert, by any means, but I think the basic principle of 'inertia' applies when you talk about religion launching itself into the future. The inertia is created by the wholehearted belief that ANY book has all of the answers. Why look for a real explanation when all of the answers are in your hand already? Again, I'm not picking on you personally (or the episcopal church), especially since I don't know what you believe 'exactly and personally.' I'm making a generalized statement about religion, not specific sects within it. I readily admit that I could be wrong, but that is my take on it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 16:50:01 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Mike Subject: You certainly can... Message: Mike, I guess I'm sensitive because these morons have taken the name Christian and now it is defined as mouth-breathing, ignorant, misogynist, homophobic, irrational, hypocritcal, fetus-protector. I don't think that the number of creationists is growing; I think that many people are joining the fundie churches because the don't want to think, but they may be giving lip-service to creationism because they want to fit in, just like we claimed to believe lots of stupid stuff when we were premies. I find it difficult to belive that one with any education can really believe the creation story is any thing more than myth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 17:16:28 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: You certainly can... Message: Mickey, Aren't there some aspects to being a Christian that are non-negotiable? Say, for example, Christ's divinity. If you reject that, isn't that the end of the ballgame? I'd sure say so. So there you have it, a core belief that is absolutely now and for ever more, immutable. Any 'evolution' the religion's going to enjoy is going to be within the understanding that it's still chained at the ankle to that particular pillar of faith. Think about it. In two hundred thousand years, if there's still a humanity, any calling themselves Christian will, by definition, share that same belief. That doesn't really look much like a recipe for growth to me. In fact, when I hear modern Christians, like yourself, try to meet the world on reasonable, open-minded terms, I'm all the more struck by what appears to me as a big albotross around your neck. You might perch him on your shoulder, you might dress him up and make him useful around the office. But, truth be told, he ain't moving. That's fiath for you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 17:34:23 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: You certainly can... Message: I think Christianity is a pretty diverse category and includes people who believe all sorts of things. For example, a church I go to sometimes which is 'christian,' has a lot of members who do not believe Christ was divine. They consider his teachings as a basis for their lives and hence consider themselves 'christian' but don't accept his divinity. The Catholics have not, for hundreds of years, preached a literal interpretation of the bible and even Baptists don't preach that. Certain Baptists do, but many don't. I agree with Mickey that fundamentalist christians are a minority of christians, even in the US, where their numbers are probabaly the largest. Europe has comparatively fewer fundamentalist christians. It's really more of an American thing. I also agree that fundamentalism sprung up as a reaction to scientific advances, especially the general acceptance of evolution, but I think it's broader than that. Basically, fundamnetalsim is a reaction to, and a fear of, the modern world. It's a reactionary belief that one should return to a simpler, supposedly better, time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:00:45 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: words, words, words Message: I think Christianity is a pretty diverse category and includes people who believe all sorts of things. For example, a church I go to sometimes which is 'christian,' has a lot of members who do not believe Christ was divine. They consider his teachings as a basis for their lives and hence consider themselves 'christian' but don't accept his divinity. Joe, if these guys don't believe in Christ's divinity they really have no right to call themselves 'Christian'. Boy, if I were a Christian and I saw the term abused like that I'd vote for a fatwa, jihad, the whole bit. Really. I mean without divinity there's no basis for giving any special notice to Christ. After all, what did he say, create or discover that was so monumental? It's not as if he invented Viagra or anything. Nor was he much of a theorist or philosopher. Even his moral teachings were nothnig earth-shattering, much as the faithful might think otherwise. No, he was special, if at all, because he came with a note from his father. Reject that and he's really just another guy in the classroom. Worse, in fact, because of all those fake notes he's pretending God gave him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:29:35 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Christ as a Role Model Message: I mean without divinity there's no basis for giving any special notice to Christ. After all, what did he say, create or discover that was so monumental? As someone who was raised Catholic, the thing I was most attracted to about Christ's life was as a role model or an example of how to live, not his supposed divinity, which made him seem a lot more distant. He actually said, or it's written that he said, quite a lot that was revolutionary at the time. The idea of loving your neighbor as much as yourself, of not judging other people, of not worshiping material possessions, caring for the sick, the beatitudes, feeding the hungry etc. The whole idea that a religion is more than a belief system -- you actually are supposed to carry out those beliefs in your life and manifest them in your relationships with other people. It was a big change from what had gone before. So, those people who don't focus on whether he was divine or not, tend to be very humanist in their outlook. This church I was talking about is really more of a social service organization than any kind of church I have ever known. It emphasises carrying out the teachings of Christ, and celebrating some kind of community, rather than focusing on worship or spirituality. But it's still 'christian' and the people still consider themselves 'christian.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:59:50 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Jim Subject: You certainly can... Message: Jim, my area of study in Christian history and I am concentrating on the patristic period, the first three centuries of Xianity. Believe me, Xianity evolves and changes all the time. There have been disputes regarding the divinity of Christ since the beginning and they continue to this day. If one told everyone to simply hum the parts of the Nicene creed in which they did not agree, I think that it would sound like a bee hive during that part of the service. Since you are a fundamentalist Dawkinite, nothing I said could ever defend Xianity to you, and I don't even try; I just try to keep you honest when you quote the Jesus Seminar and scholarship on the historical Jesus since I don't think you read the books but just read the reviews and synopses. Do you really think that there will be no humanity in two hundred years? Have you no 'fiath' in anything? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 19:17:08 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: You certainly can... Message: Mickey, I ONLY read reviews and synopses. I have lots of fiath that others will interpret the orignial texts just fine, thank you very much. So I'm a fundamentalist Dawkinite, am I? By that I assume you mean that I've accepted some doctrine as unquestionable. Now what might that be? Hm? By the way, do YOU believe in the divinity of Christ? Is that negotiable as far as you're concerned? As for humanity, didn't I say 'two hundred thousand years'? That's what I meant. Will we be around by then? Who knows? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 20:39:55 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Jim Subject: You certainly can... Message: Jim wrote: 'So I'm a fundamentalist Dawkinite, am I? By that I assume you mean that I've accepted some doctrine as unquestionable. Now what might that be? Hm?' I meant that you are dogmatic in your belief and even 'evangelical' in your zeal! I remember reading a post where you were saying that you read something in 'The Blind Watchmaker' that morning and it I had a visual image of you reading it every morning like a fundie doing Bible study before breakfast. As far as my beliefs regarding the divinity of Christ, I really don't know; sometimes I'm sure regarding his divinity and other times unsure. Was Jesus the human being divine? No. Jesus, the Christ? Of course, the Christ is the Annointed One, the Messiah. By definition the Christ is divine. Will that work for Jim Heller? Probably not. I, too, don't know if we will be around in 20,000 years. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 21:43:47 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: You certainly can... Message: I meant that you are dogmatic in your belief and even 'evangelical' in your zeal! I remember reading a post where you were saying that you read something in 'The Blind Watchmaker' that morning and it I had a visual image of you reading it every morning like a fundie doing Bible study before breakfast. Mickey, Dawkins REASONS with his readers. The Bible just tells it like it is. Big diff, I'd say. As far as my beliefs regarding the divinity of Christ, I really don't know; sometimes I'm sure regarding his divinity and other times unsure. Was Jesus the human being divine? No. Jesus, the Christ? Of course, the Christ is the Annointed One, the Messiah. By definition the Christ is divine. Will that work for Jim Heller? Probably not. A better question, I think, is how in the world that works for Mickey the Pharisee. I mean, with all due respect, Mickey, you don't have to tell me that the 'Christ' is, by definition, divine. I know that. My question's really simple and you've already answered it -- you don't know. Look at it this way, you say that sometimes you're 'sure' he's divine, other times you're not. But how could that be? How could you be 'sure' of something intermittently? Isn't it more the case that you'd LIKE to be sure and, at times, can almost persuade yourself that you are? With measured passion, Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 21:52:55 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Jim Subject: You certainly can... Message: Yeah, dat's da ticket! And remember, the purpose of the Bible is not to reason with you, heck, I don't think the people who wrote it (Hebrew scriptures especially) were even aware of that kind of stuff. Its purpose was to explain some peoples' understanding of God and how God worked in their lives. It is inaccurate as history, as science, and can't tell you how to change a fuse. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 21:57:55 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Watch it, bud Message: Mickey, If you're not careful you're going to turn into a Unitarian. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 00:20:15 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Jim Subject: Watch it, bud Message: OH MY GAWD! You're right, Jim! I will be much more careful. I hope my bishop doesn't hear about this... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 15:51:43 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: I watched the whole thing Message: MP: Don't worry, I won't tell the Bishop. I do want to say one thing: You've got to be the coolest priest I've ever had the pleasure to meet (and needle, too...he he he). I used to know a Presbyterian pastor that must have been cut from the same 'branch,' if you will. This thread kind of reminded me of him. :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 16:16:04 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Bible's purpose Message: Its purpose was to explain some peoples' understanding of God and how God worked in their lives. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the purpose fo the bible is to tell people what and why God did this or that, to encourage them to have faith in him and to warn people not to disbelieve its authors? By the way, you didn't carry on discussing your intermittent faith in Jesus's divinity. Should we just drop that? If not, I'd be interested in knowing what you think about him during all those times you DON'T think he's 'the Christ'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 17:55:07 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Jim Subject: Bible's purpose Message: I think that some see the Bible's purpose as that which you described, but that is not how I see it. It is a collection of writings from different times and different schools of thought explaining how those people understood God. It is true that there are some people who think that 'God wrote the Bible' and that it is the product of automatic writing or something (Paul, take a letter!) but we all know that such ideas are silly. As far as my intermittant faith in Jesus' divinity, I would prefer to discuss it off-line, via e-mail, as I don't want to discuss it here on the fourm. You got my e-mail address, pal. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 05:47:18 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: The fall of Rome Message: I read a commentary in an ancient Bible from the 1700s that the Revelations were really prophesy/description of the fall of the Roman Empire. I re-read Revelations and this new perspective seemed to fit perfectly. Of course, you may not want to comment about this here but if you do, anything you say about this would be interesting. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 11:29:19 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Sir David Subject: The fall of Rome Message: I agree that it may be about Rome, but I also think that it was written to deal with the trauma of the destruction of Jerusalem. Such a reading does make a lot of sense out of a book which is difficult to understand. The main problem involves all that 1st century imagery and symbology which we don't understand. I do not believe that it is a prophesy of what is to come, it was a discription of what had already happened. As far as Rome is concerned, Bernard McGinn, in his book 'Antichrist: Two Thousand Years of the Human Fascination with Evil' says that the 666 which has everybody so worked up was a numerological association to the name of Nero. There were actual fears that Nero would return from the dead and really tear the place up! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 11:52:55 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: The fall of Rome Message: MP: I know absolutely nothing about numerology, but does McGinn supply the necessary 'proofs' of his assumption? In other words, could a 'sincere' follower of numerology today, come to the same conclusion? This is interesting. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 15:23:48 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Mike Subject: The fall of Rome Message: From McGinn's 'Antichrist...' pp 52-53: 'The identification of the slain and revived head with Nero also helps explain the mysterious number of the Beast (Rev. 13:18), that is, 666. Since the second century, various interpretations of 666 have been offered (not helped by the fact that a number of manuscripts read 616 rather than 666). Students of apocalypticism have been uncertain whether to take the number as an example of general number symbolism (according to which we might say that 666 is total imperfection just as 888 would be complete perfection), or of gematria, the special number symbolim popular in antiquity that calculated names according to the numbers signified by the letters. In addition, some have opted for gematria based on Hebrew letters, others on Greek. The simplest and most likely solution is that 666 is a gematria for the Hebrew 'nrwn qsr,' that is, 'Nero Emperor.'' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 15:50:38 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: The fall of Rome Message: MP: That's veddy interesting! I had never heard that theory before. Thanks for the abstract! I'm going to get the book, if it's still in print. It looks like it will be good reading. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 23:54:30 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: You certainly can... Message: As far as my beliefs regarding the divinity of Christ, I really don't know; sometimes I'm sure regarding his divinity and other times unsure. Was Jesus the human being divine? No. Jesus, the Christ? Of course, the Christ is the Annointed One, the Messiah. By definition the Christ is divine. Mickey, Thanks for that answer. I feel the same way. I still haven't worked this out. It is refreshing to see this honesty from someone in the religion field. Thanks again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:07:14 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Ahhh...got me....pahdna Message: MP: That was a nice line of descriptors, if I ever read one...he he he. - You may be right about the 'fitting in' part, too. I HAVE noticed that the lesser-educated seem to gravitate in the direction of those particular sects that preach literal creationism (probably because thinking gives them a headache). - I know a guy, who is going to be a Baptist minister, that seriously believes that men were on earth with dinosaurs(????). They 'had' to be for the creation story (literal) to be correct. So, now he mentions the fact that homonid footprints have been found beside dinosaur footprints. Never mind that the two substrates were from different epochs (they're next to each other, dammit... yeah, right!). - In reality, I never 'saw' the creation vs. science argument in the first place. I always thought the bible story was generally in-line with the order of appearance (e.g. sea creatures before land creatures, etc). It was just the 'timing' that was messed up. That could easily be explained by examining the results from a simple question, 'How long is a DAY?' I guess they don't want to ask that one, either (might damage their brain tissue if they use it, ya know!). The logical follow-on question would be: How was it done? (Obviously, every educated person is still working on that one). Then there's one last, very important, question: Was life 'directed' to exist, in the first place, or was it 'spontaneous?' I know that this is a major over-simplification of 'the questions', but hey, you have to start somewhere. Obviously, you know this, Mickey, but I'm afraid the majority of so-called Christians don't. I really do believe that the 'mainstream' (read that: educated) sects are in the minority these days (I really do hope I'm wrong). - One thing I have noticed about certain Christian sects (yours included) is that they do, in fact, leave room for the 'I don't know' factor. That IS a good thing, in my book. Those sects WILL evolve while the others continue to atrophy their brains thru lack of use. My fear is that the fundie (I like that) sects are growing at an alarming rate and they have many cult-like aspects about them (like hypnotic prayer meetings, mindless speaking in tongues, etc). Those characteristics are a major draw for the uneducated and then the 'you will go to hell' stranglehold ensures their compliance with whatever the leadership says (including literal creationism). Look at the charismatic movement and you'll understand where I'm coming from. This isn't exactly conducive to 'launching into the future.' IMHO. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 00:42:51 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: You certainly can... Message: I guess I'm sensitive because these morons have taken the name Christian and now it is defined as mouth-breathing, ignorant, misogynist, homophobic, irrational, hypocritcal, fetus-protector. You need the bumper sticker that reads: LORD, SAVE ME FROM YOUR FOLLOWERS! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 00:51:00 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: VP Subject: You certainly can... Message: VP, I saw a great bumper-sticker today, it read: The Truly Educated Never Graduate. I told my wife about it and she said, 'yeah, that's you, never graduating' (I'm in my fifth year at seminary). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 22:44:55 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mike Subject: Welcome back... Message: Mike: I've been away for quite awhile. My system crashed and I had to reformat the hard drive and reinstall Windows four different times befor I got a stable installation. Not sure whether my drive is going out, but the nice folks at Micron are going to send me a new drive anyway. Seems ok now. At any rate, I just wanted to make the comment that in general there are two basic points of veiw about anything that has acquired a 'cannon,' such as most religions and most legal systems. One side is the 'interpretive' while the other bills itself as the 'literal.' In general the 'interpretive turn' (which came with Kant in western philosophy) holds that all things are filtered through an individual's internal categorizations. (Kant tried to find some universal categories, w/o much luck.) In religion these two positions are often referred to as the 'orthodox' and the 'progressive,' but roughly the same thing occurs in the academic disciplines, in the sciences, in mathematics, and in law. Come to think of it, maybe those are some universal categories. What do you think? BTW, I won't be around from now until the 7th. Going on a little trip. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 14:59:03 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Becky Subject: Science v religion? Message: Becky, If you want to read something really personal by Jim, check in the archives for his Millenium letter. It will give you insight into Jim the premie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 17:05:50 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Becky Subject: Science v religion? Message: Jim, I'm not dissing science, and sure I'll check out the exact meaning of the words that mean embryo and sperm - since there are many translations of the Qur'an. Science hasn't finished and nor has Islam - science evolves and religion evolves, and the two aren't necessarily disconnected or opposed. Your fervour for your point of view certainly does seem to verge on the religious. Becky, Good to hear from you again. I'm only good when I argue. You know that. The rest of the time I just go dormant like a mud lizard. So, thanks. And please -- don't leave again until I'M ready to leave. Thanks again. You're not serious about finding 'sperm' or 'empbryo' in the Koran, are you? Really, how could that be? I think not. Yes, science evolves but religion? Religions that are not bound to an initial authority figure or sacred text (if any such exist) might well evolve, I guess, but a religion like Islam doesn't provide that same freedom, now does it? I've read Mike's post and agree with all he says in that respect. I'd be interested in hearing just how you'd say otherwise. By the way, on a slightly different tack: what led you to Maharaji, and what were your feelings and beliefs then? Your journey is quite impersonal. - don't take that as an insult. I also read VP's post and partially agree that my Millenium letter, which I only have because I got it back from my mother ten years ago, is somewhat personal. That is, I talk there a bit about the 'love' I looked for here and there and alluded to certain people and circumstances my mom and sister could relate to. But most of the letter is sadly robotic, impersonal, boilerplate satsang, kind of like Chrisspeak only juicier. I got knowledge because I had no inkling of what I now know which helps me see through the 'illusion of design'. My paternal grandfather was a very religious, humble jew, despised, unfortuantely, by my father and uncle for his inability to be a good provider for their family. (He was a peddlar, come over from Austria. Used to sell clothes from the trunk of his car. Had some health problems and never really established himself). My dad and uncle, on the other hand, were major hustlers. They took Windsor, Ontario by storm, made money, had lots of fun, were real characters. Part of their 'modern' attitude was rampant hedonism, materialism and atheism. The latter was based on no more than a simple hunch, I guess. God was something their unfortuante father was into. Not them. Ironically, years later, my uncle got heavily involved in Humanistic Judaism and the skeptic movement. Believe it or not, he always thought I was too gullible and impressionable vis a vis all the issues we discuss here. For example, back then, in the eighties and before his death, I was much more undecided about spirituality. I might ahve rejected Maharaji but I thought knowledge was credible. Plus, I was fascinated by Terence McKenna's well-spun psychedlic voyager yarn. And there were others. My uncle and father thought I was still just a dumb hippie (okay, with a law degree). Anyway, I got knowledge because I thought my father didn't know dick and that, in the wonderfully anti-rational spirit of the early 70s, I decided that truth, in the form of a fat, little guru from India, had found me out just like Baba Ram Dass ('Be Here Now') said it would. I disliked my father's sharp cynicism and closed-mindedness. I was going to show the universe another kind of Heller. And that's about it. From that point on my story's the same as all those other fresh-faced 19 year olds waiting in the boats to storm the beaches. Becky, given that religion itself is what we're discussing, I'd suggest it's ill-advised to compare my faith in science with religious zealotry. Religion's all about faith. I'm into proof. Soem ahve tried to characterize trusting the process of science as being just another form of blind faith. I think that's bullshit as it really turns the concept of 'faith' on its head. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 17:40:24 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Jim Message: Jim, This may be when you are the happiest but you are also very good when you are witty and humorous. I'm only good when I argue. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 13:19:05 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Becky Subject: Science v religion? Message: Science is actually more fun than religion. I was browsing through a copy of Pinker's How The Mind Works where he talks about how eyes resolve a three dimensional world and I felt like a kid in school again learning some really interesting things, real things. With religion, there's always that nagging question; 'Is this real'? I don't feel that way while learning from science. I just feel fascination at how the universe and things in it work. With religion, I'm left with a nagging suspicion that what I'm being taught is just a bunch of horse shit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 18:46:22 (EDT)
From: corvus rosaceus Email: corvus@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Becky Subject: Science v religion? Message: 'Religions die when they are proved to be true' (Oscar Wilde.) nige Chewed a carpet in Bournemouth, Oct '78 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 13:26:05 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Jim Subject: Fried brain and square eyes Message: That's how I feel at the moment. It's been a hard day's work, so be gentle with me. I'm not at home at the moment. Back in London demain so will check out ASAP the translations for sperm and embryo. I want to verify what the words at the time were for them and if those are the words used in the Qur'an. another interesting thing, but I can't get the exact quote because I am bookless ce moment, is that in the Qur'an is says that the planets have their own orbits, and points to copernicus' theory 800 years before Cop. Re: the above discussion about six days. Yes, that's symbolic or mythical. Re: Christ's divinity. In Islam it is blasphemous to say that Christ was divine. He was simply a human being inspired by an essential truth, and he was in the right place at the right time for him to have an effect. Jim, interesting family history. I also have Jewish ancestors from Germany, Austria and Holland. They came over to the East End of London. One guy (Frederick Rosen) was a music hall impresario. I only discovered all this about eight months ago. Ironic when I'm looking into Islam, eh? The Jewish bit was kept hush hush in our family. Re: Proof. Some things aren't provable in this life. This is a terrible example but here goes: how could I prove that I love someone? Or that I'm in love with them, not infatuated? How, also, can you prove that what you saw in your dream last night is not just something you 'imagined'. Mike: It may sound as if I am making up my own religion based on Islam. I am not Muslim. I am trying to sort through the crap that surrounds Islam so that I get as closely as I can to the message. This means disgarding a lot of cultural stuff. (Female circumcision has nothing to do with Islam for example). When you mention the clothes - boy! that makes me laugh. You are looking at the way people dress from a Western culural point of view. You're forgetting that its bloody hot in most Islamic countries and that the clothes are ideally suited to that weather. Turbans and headscarves are great for keeping off the burning sun. would you wear jeans in the desert or the jungle? Also, when you are in an islamic country, what people wear seems perfectly normal. No big deal. Back soon. I'm PCless for the moment. Bear with me until I'm sorted out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 13:38:40 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Becky Subject: You missed my point Message: Becky: You missed it entirely. I'm well aware of the heat in the middel east. I know that turbins and such work very well. BUT, and this is a big BUT, the BLACK outfits that the women are REQUIRED to wear, some with metal masks, have NOTHING to do with the heat. They are using the koran to justify making women wear that stuff. The women in iraq used to wear clothing that more closely approximated what we wear here in the desert southwest (very practical from a 'heat' point of view). Now that the fundies have taken over there, the women are FORCED to wear that BMO outfit. (BMO, by the way, stands for: Black Moving Object, because that is exactly what it looks like on the street). Now, since you know that I live in the desert, you tell me how the BLACK clothing color works well in the heat. - My REAL point is that 'mainstream' islam isn't rocketing itself into the future any faster or better than any other religion that follows, or claims to follow, an old book (with a very literal bent). With some notable exceptions (within sects), any religion that follows an ancient book is, by its nature, 'tied' to the ancient ideas and customs that are written in the book. It kind of goes with the territory, no? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 14:20:52 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Becky Subject: Correction and additional info Message: Becky: I meant IRAN, not IRAQ. But you can add the UAE, Oman and Saudi Arabia to the list. Additionally, how do you explain the fact that the 'men' where very lightweight WHITE clothing while they require the women to wear the black outfits I described in my last post? This is why you don't see very many women on the street during the day. Add to this, the fact that the women are fully clothed underneath that outfit and the clothing is usually of a 'western' bent. How do I know this? Because I lived there on several occasions, including one stint that lasted a year. I was invited into Saudi homes and the women remove the 'outer wear' like we would a jacket. If you touch that fabric after it has been outdoors, you would KNOW that it can't possibly be comfortable, nor is it worn to ward-off the heat. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 10:27:49 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Becky Subject: Thanks for the memo, Becky Message: Re: wild goose chase through Koran for proof of astonishing (divine?) anachronistic knowledge -- have fun! I can't believe that you're seriously doing this but, then, that's religion for you. Re: Christ' divinity -- Why do you accept the Muslim interpretation over the Christian? (Shit, I can't believe I'm doing this!) Re: proof -- you're right. That's a terrible example. Re: whether or not you're creating your own custom little religion from the antique cloth of islam -- it sure sounds like it. Re: whether or not the possible benefit long clothes might have to someone in desert heat the least bit justifies forcing women to dress any which way -- of course not. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 07:22:53 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Jim Subject: Accept what? Message: Jim, I never said I accepted the Muslim version of what Christ was over the Christian. I am simply STATING what it is. Personally I don't consider my interesing in and feeling for Islam to be a wild goose chase. And unlike you Jim, as I have said before, I don't say guilty without trial. I don't allow myself to retreat into my Wesern cultural prejudices when judging other cultures and other religions. I see two ways (if not more) not one way. I am aware that human beings have fundamenally different percerptions, values and starting points on which they base their lives. You'd make a great colonialist Jim. Mike: Women in Iran (which is SHI'A not SUNNI Islam) do NOT wear face veils (Niqab). Women in Saudi are even called 'crows' by other Muslim cultures, and the dress that they where only came in in the 18th century with a puritan-style of Islam. Many Muslims actually call the Saudi govt. the 'enemy of Islam'. As I have said approximately a hundred times on this forum: Islam is NOT MONOLITHIC. If you look at Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Niger, Senegal, Mali, Sudan, Somalia, India, Uzbeckistan, Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia and China, you will not see any women wearing BLACK abayas. OK? Yes Islamic world has huge problems with its attitude to modernisation, and I would probably be a minority liberal if I was a Muslim, but there are Muslims who are fighting for a modern interpretation of the Qur'an, the re-establishment of the original feminist message of Islam etc. But it still has a long and painful way to go. Hasta la vista Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 13:24:26 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Becky Subject: Accept what? Message: Becky: Although this discussion is not really about clothing, I will make a correction: Saudi Arabia is NOT the only country where the women wear black and veils. Almost every country on the saudi peninsula does. Be careful when you look at pictures of women on the street there, to make your determination because many of the women there are hindu houseworkers, etc. - The issue of clothing is just an 'indicator' of the main point of this thread. Let me put it another way: Show me where islam has 'rocketed' into the future. Show me where being a member of that religion has assisted in recent scientific discovery rahter than delaying it. Show me where it says 'sperm' in the koran. Becky, THAT is the point of this thread. Religion, with some notable exceptions, has generally been an agent of inertia, NOT an agent of change. THAT IS THE POINT! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 15:17:35 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Mike Subject: Accept what? Message: Mike - I think your point is disputable. Christianity aside (because yes, Christianity was incredibly and stupidly oppressive - although that has nothing to do with Jesus's message) Islam advanced science rapidly until the 16th/17th century when it started to stagnate. Yes it is stagnating now. This is a great problem, and as I said to Jim, there are many Muslims and others who are trying to break through this stagnation. A little reminder: Arab Muslims only make up 10-15% of all Muslims. As I pointed out in my little list of other Muslim countries, most of the Muslim female population does not dress in black. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 15:51:06 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Becky Subject: Stagnation Message: Becky: You just made my point: For over 300 years this religion has stagnated (since the 17th century, in your words). That isn't 'recent' by any definition, except maybe geological time. The fact that a 'few' people are trying to break-out isn't a 'movement,' either. When I look at 'mainstream' Islam, as I said before, I see inertia. The 'movement' occurs in spite of religion, not BECAUSE of it. Like I said, this isn't about clothing, it's about science and religion. Again, show me recent indications of Islam making that forward movement, not some of its adherents, but the religion itself as a monolithic entity. You won't be able to and THAT IS MY POINT! Values written in an old book are just fine because values are 'generally' universal and time-independent, but to use them as a basis for scientific knowledge is ludicrous. Jeez, many textbooks on astronomy that are a mere 30 years old are incredibly inaccurate and, thus, useless. A book that is a thousand years old is even more so. Adhering to the 'scientific' content of those books, as if they were something special, is rediculous in the extreme. To do so invites interia! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:00:59 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Gain more old Indian Wisdom Message: At: The 4 blind people, the Astrologer, the Mango and a few other new stories .... like the Philosopher's stone, the Ashram premie who decided to get married, etc... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:29:20 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Entraped Message: JM: WOW, the ashram premie story (I didn't remember that one) was particularly telling, wasn't it. It is a very profound story, in terms of how M feels about marriage (big surprise he can't keep his zipper up) and in terms of how 'disjointed' his thought process is. It, once again, clearly describes how M wants everyone to relate to GMJ in terms of devotion (e.g. he is god or greater than god, etc, etc) You know, I've never, ever considered by marriage to be entrapment. I've always thought of it as sharing my life with my very best friend. Hmmmmm... Obviously M doesn't give it that kind of respect. What really amazes me is that we didn't see thru those stories to the motive that drove them... 'ENTRAPMENT' BY M. He EVEN GAVE US the key words and we didn't see it. Are we stupid, or what? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 17:51:36 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Mike Subject: Entraped: dozens of them Message: The more I go into this old stories recollection, the more I find it totally surrealistic. And I still have dozens of stories of that type to scan and to edit. How is it possible to be trapped by such philosophy? I am really into trying to find the answer for myself: What in me LIKED these stories. What part of me was it answering? How can we be so tired of the world, friends etc? Or is it the fact that I was so attracted by him that I sticked to HIS views? Now that I think of it, I think that was a very important factor for me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 15:00:10 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Gain more old Indian Wisdom Message: Frogs, not toads - g! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 12:41:44 (EDT)
From: eb the groupy Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Off Topic-I Got High Last Nite Message: I know this isn't the arena for this, but since I've grown to love you, my fellow exes, I wanted to share this with you. I went to two concerts in the last two nights: Jethro Tull on Sunday and Emerson, Lake, and Palmer last night. For ELP we were front row in the center of a small venue. It was so much fun!!! Greg Lake gave me a pick and said he loves me. Keith shook my hand. And Carl Palmer was absolutely awesome! (My goth daughter says you can tell how bad a band is by the number of gongs they have--ELP had two). Tull concert: Ian Anderson was hoarse, but the music was great. He cracked me up when he couldn't remember the name of a song off his first album. Neither could Martin. (His memory may be bad, but he's still got lots of energy. And he was old when I was a teenager; the guy's got to be in his late 60's). During that concert I realized what an integral part of my growing up Jethro Tull was, philosophically-speaking. One song off the Benefit album that I love goes like this: 'I'm going back to the ones that I know with whom I can be what I want to be. Just one week for the feeling to go and with you there to help me, well then it probably will'. I am an exception to the study indicating that people who spend lots of time on the internet tend to become depressed; since finding you all, I've felt a whole lot better. I feel that I can be myself here. And besides gaining a perspective on my lost years as a premie, the groupie within is emerging again and I'm damn glad she's back! Love, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 12:56:01 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: eb the groupy Subject: High on what? he he Message: EB: you are sooooo retro...snicker...snicker. Yeah, I am the same way. I saw the moody blues and YES, recently. Those concerts were alot of fun and really very good. The performers were on-top of their performances, so they weren't hoarse or off-key. REALLY GREAT! I didn't know that ELP and Tull were still around. I'll BET you had fun. The premie (and military) lifestyle stifled the kid in me a bit, so I'm enjoying my 'freedom' alot these days. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 14:51:02 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: Mike Subject: High on what? he he Message: Dear Mike, You made me think here: in a way, the premie lifestyle I adopted in the early 70's helped me to stop worshipping rock stars and being so promiscuous. I guess that was a good thing. yeah right. Party on. eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:11:58 (EDT)
From: Sir Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: eb the groupy Subject: I'm more than a little jealous Message: ELP eh. That's enough to make me feel young. I used to do a freaky dance to Tarkus down at the Heavy Rock Club in Coventry when I was about 17-18. A few pints of local ale and I was a star! Those were the days. Happy hippy days of loon pants, clanging jewelry and long hair when it was cool to be freaky... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:20:43 (EDT)
From: Sir Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Old heads Subject: Yours Is No Disgrace Message: I used to do a freaky dance to that one too. Best rock tune I ever heard. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:50:58 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: Sir Subject: John Anderson as Guru Message: I love Yes. They take me there, if you know what I mean. Same with Keith Emerson on keyboards. He was playful last night. Came out in sunglasses and played the accordian on C'est La Vie. As usual, he dragged out an old piano and stabbed it several times with a plastic knife. (As you can imagine, I found it rather stimulating). I'm still high, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:11:21 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: eb the groupy Subject: Off Topic-I Got High Last Nite Message: Dear Eb, I wish I could have seen either of those concerts but especially Tull. So glad you are getting to feel real cozy here. I have promised myself to get caught up on email tonight. Just woke up from a 5 hour nap! Love ya sweetie, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 00:41:25 (EDT)
From: eliza Email: None To: Everyone Subject: a little jealous Message: 'it's about suppression' that's what I guess this whole cult is doing... like the ads for zovirax.but what about premies as they get to be elderly? Will they be better off than me- who deals with depression and certain tortures of the mind? Can you really get away your whole life with this shit and never leave the cult and then if you never had any serious problems with it or doubts about it- just go into death having lived a number but perhaps less painful life?I'm of course not talking about the people on this website- the exes I'm talking about several people I know- who have handed me business card sized white cards with the phone number for m stuff in my area.just that. maharaji and the number.The people I'm talking about are 20 plus years older than me and are at least 20 year members of the gig.no ashrams, they are premie lites. they don't seem to be in severe financial crisis over their donations, donating ten percent of their income perhapsI saw m in long beach 96 I think. It was pretty fucked. camel dung shit cake story, his daughter singing;'he's our lord , he's our life, he's our maharaji'something about 'you need me, but I need something higher'stale video; 'I'm the wind, you're the sail' said while walking down the beach in a polyester golf shirtlots of $15 cassette tapes for sale- too steep for meI special ordered Who is Guru Maharaji from the archives of my local libraryI managed to get the techniques explained to me I liked 'sound' I even grooved on it as being the primordial vibration of the universe- did it in the bathtubtoo bad mr.maharaji has to go and ruin everything by fitting the profile of the abusive, unavailable , seductive father many of us have dealt withI'm sort of lost. I actually fantasize about what it would be like to surrender my mind to this assholeI try to scramble my thoughts with various techniques when the thoughts get too depressing and self criticalI'm working on quelling the 'angst' and finding inner peace- I Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 01:25:35 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: eliza Subject: a little jealous Message: Dear Eliza, Take what feels good about those techniques and don't spend a moments worry about the rest. Works better without the 'Perfect Master'/Meditation Teacher/Spoiled Rich Brat. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 12:20:00 (EDT)
From: Gregg Email: gpainter@dnvr.uswest.net To: Eliza Subject: a little jealous Message: Nice stream of consciousness post there, Eliza. Know whatcha mean. Just want to say that if you are interested in pursuing the feeling you get from 'the techniques,' or are interested in going 'beyond' those yogic techniques to simply abiding in pure awareness, there are plenty of genuine teachers and schools to go to. You don't have to choose between surrendering the reins of your life to a bogus guru and living a life of meaningless depression. Good luck to ya! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:12:32 (EDT)
From: eliza Email: None To: Robyn and Gregg Subject: a little jealous Message: I appreciate the responses-sorry about the crammed in style of my post- It was visually challenging to say the least- I'm very newto cyber anythingm was 'introduced' to me in 1992 and I've been hitwith some promotional pr from some premies to the point where I started to believe they were betteroff than me.There are so many other factors involvedthat's what all the trickiness shows itselfPreying on my moodswing one day, gregg, a premie acquaintence did actually present the m trip as a choice between existential angst/ being suicidaland 'the truth'/ the void being filledAll the secrecy about k and the guilt about rippingm off by using the techniques without him breathing foryou- what a mindfuck I can't enjoy putting my fingers in my ears in the bathtub so much afterreading through this website- it's taintedthanks again for the imput- I get into black/whiteall or nothing thinking/cognitive distortions andthat can lead me into being vulnerable to certain cultpr scams Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:58:30 (EDT)
From: eliza Email: None To: Gregg and Robyn Subject: a little jealous Message: thanks for the imput, both of youI was introduced to the whole concept of the m and klifestyle in 1992 and due to the sometimeseuphoric sounding pr promotional hype Ithink the premies I know are better off than I.That's the whole trickiness of the trickeryAlso, there are many, many factors that gointo the difference between myself and the premiesI know.I was actually presented with the notion thatpremiedom was the antithesis to existential angst/feeling suicidal.presenting it in that light hit me where I wasalready vulnerable- prone to all or nothing/ blackor white thinking.there is a suction cup factor to the cult.the secrecy, the guilt, the promises, us and themexclusivityI need to go deeper into what I'm really envious aboutthanks again Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 04:21:52 (EDT)
From: eliza Email: None To: the eraser Subject: a little jealous Message: I sent one too many reply missals.If anyone can wipe out one of them I'd appreciate it.I'm barely learning computer stuff. thanks Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 20:54:52 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Everyone Subject: No more divine light Message: Exuse me for being slow and going over old ground but I've just recently realised something. About the myth of divine light. I don't normally meditate on the light or first technique and have never given it much serious practise since I received knowledge in 1972. However, recently I decided to really put some time into practising the technique, which I've simplified slightly. All I have been doing is concentrating at the point between my eyebrows - no eyeball pressing or even touchning my eyes. Well, I have been seeing light. But at the same time I've also been getting bad headaches, dissiness and finding it difficult to read small print. Today I realised what looking at 'light' is actually doing. For a start, the light I've been seeing is not some sort of light of God but actually retina light caused by my optic nerve. By concentrating on it and getting it to come more and more, I've been distorting my vision, giving myself migrain headaches and making myself feel sick. This light is definitely not divine and I think that if I were to continue trying to look at it, I could make myself seriously ill, given time. We are talking about damaging the optic nerve here, through concentration on an optic distortion. So that's one technique down and out of the four techniques of 'knowledge'. Well some of you are going to be pleased with this honest appraisal. But I've still got three techniques left! However, in my opinion this light technique could be damaging and I feel obliged to say so. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 21:38:36 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Sir David Subject: No more divine light Message: Sir David, If you're making the light come 'more and more', you're probably forcing something you shouldn't be. I rarely use the formal 1st technique, myself, but will, on occasion, just close my eyes and focus on whatever I see without forcing the issue. I find it to be relaxing, no strain at all. I don't even try to focus on the '3rd eye' area. I just look and see with a minimum of conscious effort. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 21:56:59 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jerry Subject: No more divine light Message: No I wasn't forcing it Jerry. I was seeing light without forcing it and just got into it for longer than my usual 30 seconds. I was really getting into it and afterwards I couldn't see properly and my brain felt like it was splitting in two. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 23:20:38 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Sir David Subject: No more divine light Message: I'm surprised you have a nectar technique left after that nectar thread down below. It must be the 'brain sex' part that has you intrigued :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 23:37:18 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Sir David Subject: No more divine light Message: I don't see much of what I would call light. I know if I press hard on my eyes that really brightens thing up but it also hurts and I see no good reason for it. I'm a little baffled by the number of exes on this forum that would go to extremes to see light or taste nectar. I never got the impression, myself, that these extremes were necessary. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 06:41:23 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jerry Subject: No more divine light Message: I wasn't going to extremes to see light and neither was I pressing on my eyeballs. I had been looking at light evry day for over a week and had been seeing more of it as the days passed. While before this time, I used to try seeing light and then give up and go onto music, I made a concerted effort to actually practise for 10-15 minutes on light each day. In the end, I was seeing light very easily and it was there without doing the technique. The damn thing is still there now as I'm typing. But it's not divine and I have deduced that it is an inbalance or something, in the optic nerve that is producing light. It's akin to having a migrain and it's not pleasant. All the other techniques I've concentrated on, without any ill effects. Now I feel like I've damaged my optic nerve. And just from practising looking at light for a week! I had heard a few other premies express the same opinion that light could damage the optic nerve but I just thought they meant by pressing on their eyeballs (the old method). Now, in my opinion, the reason why most premies don't see light is because they haven't caused this optical imbalance. Perhaps some people really do see something called divine light (you know, God and stuff) but I'm just saying what I've seen. Light getting brighter and more prevailent which has turned out to be an optical misfunction. Caused by concentration on the third eye area and NOT by pressing eyeballs etc. Well I've practised listening to music for years and have never had any adverse effects from that. The sounds I sometimes hear are most beautiful and captivating. And they only served to charm and delight me. I do suffer from tinnitus and the sounds I've heard from the music are not that. They are too magical and mysterious to be tinnitus. I think!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 08:23:19 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Sir David Subject: No more divine light Message: Sir David, it was only after a few months after I stopped practising K, that I realised that those pesky painful headaches I'd been suffering had anything to do with the techniques. I didn't make the connection while a premie, because they didn't hit straight after practising, but at different times later in the day. It doesn't surprise me at all that sticking three of your fingers hard into your eyes/forehead for more than 15 minutes at a time, is going to have some sort of side-effect. If pressure points in massage can achieve a lot when only pressed for a few minutes, then imagine how your body reacts to such an intense localised pressure on such sensitive parts of the body for such long periods of time. Bloody ridiculous. Regards, TD Gave up the migraines in '98 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 10:16:34 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Sir David Subject: No more divine light Message: It doesn't sound good, Sir David. You may have hurt yourself and might consider seeing a doctor who can tell you if you have done any actual damage to your eyes. I hope no real harm has been done. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 20:08:25 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Sir David Subject: No more divine light Message: Sir David The premie who told me about knowledge said that when he practiced a lot he saw light all the time. HE said he could see my aura and if only I knew how incredible I looked, what I really was. Personally I didn't like the idea of seeing light all the time at all. Like permanently tripping. But he did say it was only when he practiced a lot. Just telling you this to confirm that you have experienced sounds right - some sort of damage to the optical nerve. There is no way this guy had any spiritual kind of qualities that would seem to accompany such a saintly state as seeing light everywhere. Not judging him but just saying - I don't think the light is 'divine' as you say. It is a very literal concept of experiencing 'god'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 22:30:45 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Judith Subject: No more divine light Message: Hi Judith, Glad to see you're back and hope things are well with you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 01:34:25 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Sir David Subject: light & nectar Message: Dear Sir, I have to tell you that I enjoyed light very much as a premie and since. Just different strokes, I think. I never had any experience with music or nectar and powerful ones with light and word. I lurked her for a few minutes yesterday and read some about the nectar technique between you and JW maybe and I have found myself, today, working on resting my tounge back to try again to stretch it. I use to push or force it and never got anywhere. I was also horrified yet unfortunately not shocked to hear how that technique has changed and was facinated to read how some of you experienced putting your tounge back and up. I was content with having imaginary Bad Robin to take all the heat when there was trouble when I was a child. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 11:17:18 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Migraines Message: Sir: I know that people (non-premies, never initiated) who get migraines, often times see 'lightning' bolts and other visual disturbances. It 'may' be that you are migraine-prone at the moment and looking at the light starts it back up. I think you should see a physician concerning your migraines and that may cure the whole thing. If you haven't been pressing your eyeballs, I don't think you have damaged anything. Just a thought... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:01:18 (EDT)
From: Sir Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Mike & Jerry Subject: Migraines - no thanks Message: Thanks for your concern, Jerry and Mike. I think the disturbance to my optic nerve may clear up on its own. Of course I'll see a doctor if it doesn't. Yes I am prone to a certain type of migrain and some other head problems usually associated with chemical sensitivity and allergies. I'll certainly lay of the 'divine light' in future. Certainly for me, concentration in that area is potentially damaging. It's funny that after all these years, I've only just found out. Although I do remember that when I did sparodically practise light meditation in the early seventies, I did get headaches and wierd brain splitting sensations but I had put that down to doing the old light technique. Now I know it was the light also which causes a problem, in me anyway. I'll crawl back into my cave now, creature of darkness that I am...See you in the dark. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:10:04 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Sir Subject: Please do keep Message: am eye (no pun intended) on it, Sir. I know that migraines are no joke... they hurt like hell. I agree with you that the problem will likely clear itself up.... just keep an eye on it, OK? We DO care about you, you know. :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 20:03:43 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Loose Premies Message: As I walked through the financial district today, I saw what looked like human hair all over the street and falling out of windows. I assume it's the hair of many stock brokers responding to today's market meltdown. Well, maybe the boom is coming to an end, but I think we'll see lower interest rates so everybody get out there and REFINANCE, okay? Now, on an entirely different subject: I left the Maharaj Ji cult in 1983. But I was speaking with an ex-premie recently who remained a premie during the 80s and this person said that the 'morals' among premies, and apparently Maharaji, really changed during that period from what they had been before. For example, I know the ashrams closed, but I was told that premies got into all kinds of risque sexual activities like wife-swapping, got into all kinds of recreational drugs, like cocaine, and that many did so taking cues from Maharaji. Apparently it was widely known among the premies that Maharaji was really into smoking, drinking, recreational drugs, and sex with women other than his wife during this period and some premies took that as permission to get into this stuff themselves. This woudln't be surprising, since when I was a premie, we even tried to wear the same cologne M wore (Paco Raban (yuck!)) and if we knew he was doing other illicit stuff we would feel we had license to do it ourselves. But this would be a real change, since the cult morals were so puritan in the 70s and early 80s, and anyone who was violating those norms would have to keep it under wraps or be subject to a lot of put-downs by the other premies and the initiators. Anyhow, those of you who were around after 1983 have any comments on this? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 23:16:45 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: JW Subject: Loose Premies Message: It's true. Cocaine got really popular for quite some time. Most of the premie marriages I knew of broke up. Lots of wild stuff going on, but I never knew I was copying M! I think it's because there was no more satsang, so people needed something to do with each other at night :) I am serious, we didn't have a clue how to relate as adults without that structure. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 12:47:57 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Selene Subject: Loose Premies Message: Selene: What you said if fascinating. Prior to the time I left, Maharaji said, at least publicly and through the initiators that drug use was a big no no. First, it was a requirement that an aspirant be drug free for some period of time prior to receiving knowledge, and then I recall the initiators being adamant that premies were NOT to used drugs, even marijuana. It was also the old premie line that one practicing knowledge and being a premie made you so 'high' that you didn't need drugs anymore. It was no sacrifice to give them up because you had found something better. No matter that Maharaji was a big hypocrite at the time and was engaging in using illegal drugs and cheating on his wife all the while he was telling us not to. But nightly satsang was such an integral part of the whole premie scene, that I wondered what would happen when it stopped. I guess you have filled in some of the details. Frankly, it was one thing to have to be around the premies in structured satsang, but having to socialize with them in another context would have been too unbearable, if you ask me. I guess in that case, I'd have taken drugs, too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 13:06:40 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: JW Subject: Loose Premies Message: JW: - I agree! When I was in Norfolk, I met a premie couple that were living the 'new' premie lifestyle. They were nice enough, but that's where it ended. They had no social skills, at all. Everything revolved around M. If you wanted to talk about anything else, they would just clam-up. They were so shallow. If I had any doubts about 'leaving,' these folks convinced me, by their behavior, that I wasn't going to let the 'screen door' hit me in the bum while doing so. RUN AWAY...RUN AWAY! - I don't know if they were doing drugs, but it wouldn't have surprised me. All they wanted to do was sit around and watch M-videos. It's hard to tell where the stare of self-hypnotism stops and the drug-induced stare starts, you know. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 16:35:44 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: JW & Mike Subject: Loose Premies Message: And it got worse! Premies I know were dealing BIG TIME (as in blue samsonite) And automatic weapons. And ripping each other off in every way. Nice stuff. It took me a while to extricate myself, most of the 80' actually, because I still believed, well, hey! they are premies so they must be good people right? I was that naiive, honestly. I mean, I did it but never even liked coke. - I'm more of a psychedelic type - or good tranquilizers - so obviously coke didn't agree but I just hung around, just like with M. Weirder still, I saw one of these big 'players' at an event recently and there he was, expensive suit, smiling angelically, you would never know he'd just gotten out from doing well deserved time. Just all blissed out from the love of the lord. gag. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:24:26 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Selene Subject: Loose Premies Message: Selene: SAY WHAAAAAAA???? You HAVE got to be kidding! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:56:26 (EDT)
From: selene Email: None To: Mike Subject: I even left stuff out! Message: Really, Mike, this story and more are true. I wouldn't make that up just to make premies look bad or something. I do live in a wild place, lots of drug activity from down south, etc. so that might explain some of it. To me it's part of the non-morality of the whole premie thing. When your soul source of wisdom, guidance, importance, is one person .. and he has a tendency to not bother with things like morality... well is it all really so surprising? As long as one goes to events, pushing K at people, does 'service' - not feeding the poor but pulling up weeds in Amaroo or sweeping the dust on the residence driveway - as long as one does this and maybe even the meditation, than nothing matters in 'this world' You can lie cheat steal and worse... It's not part of that world of knowledge. That's how I see it and that's how I call it. I didn't gain this insight the easy way, believe me!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 19:15:21 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: selene Subject: I believe you... Message: Selene: I was just incredulous. I don't 'think' the premies in my day would have considered this stuff, but of course, I can definitely be wrong/blind/whatever. If I had seen this stuff, I would have RUN AWAY, big time. But, you are right: M makes it seem like nothing in this world matters and that could easily be interpreted to mean 'anything goes.' If this is a general feeling among premies now, then this cult has taken a MAJOR turn into the dark-area, if you know what I mean. These guys have the very real potential to become Jonestown-dangerous, Waco-dangerous, ISKON-dangerous, etc. This really is a frightening prospect! Do you think things have improved or gotten worse? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 13:49:00 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: selene Subject: I even left stuff out! Message: Selene, did this kind of activity stop at some point? Are premies in the 90s more conservative than in the 80s? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 15:56:00 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: JW and Mike Subject: I even left stuff out! Message: Hi I don't communicate with any of these people anymore. I do know some of the people I mentioned got into 12 step programs or other forms of counseling. Also, our bodies start to rebel after a while you know! Can't keep that stuff up forever. My guess is the few stragglers hanging out in our community are representative of other small communities. They seem somewhat lost, indulge in their drugs of choice but far less frequently, and the big drug now is attending events. I don't know of a lot of drug dealing anymore, anyone who made it through that either got rich and left or settled down to legal businesses. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 16:42:33 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Selene Subject: Whew! Message: Selene: That is 'good' to hear. I would be very concerned if they were still doing that stuff. You gotta admit, that would be a 'frightening' prospect. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 19:26:53 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Mike Subject: Whew! Message: It's all frightening to me Mike. The fact that millions of dollars gets filtered through (what?) Swiss bank accounts or whatever for M, the fact that he is a fraud, that his premies are stuck in a very stagnant place that leaves no room for truly caring about anyone else, that is frightening too. Though I admit the violence and drug stuff is scary in and of itself, and adding a premie think layer on top of is over the top. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 19:48:43 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Selene Subject: Whew! Message: Selene: OOOOOOOH yeah! I'm not minimizing the cult aspect, at all. It was just the 'thought' of that other stuff that put me over-the-top. Obviously, we've seen the results of that kind of activity and it's never 'pretty.' As to the cult, I hope our presence, here, helps with that. Thanks Selene. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 13:09:40 (EDT)
From: I'm not telling Email: None To: JW Subject: Some 90's Premies... Message: are still dealing drugs big time. The sex orgies of the 80's in our close-knit community appeared to have ended though. However, I wouldn't call the premies 'conservative'--more like facists in liberal clothing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 13:22:46 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: I'm not telling Subject: Some 90's Premies... Message: INT: You DO know what a conservative is, don't you? Answer: A liberal that's been 'mugged.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 14:18:13 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: I'm not telling Subject: Some 90's Premies... Message: I just meant 'conservative' in the sense of being less wild, drug-wise, sexually, etc. I found most premies to be incredibly apolitical, and really very ignorant of what was going on in the world. Again, it kind of mirrored their guru and his simplistic views of the way the 'world' and the 'people of the world,' are. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 19:47:27 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: JW Subject: Some 90's Premies... Message: >Again, it kind of mirrored their guru and his simplistic views of the way the 'world' and the 'people of the world,' are. The simplistic view is that there is something fundamentally the same and good about all people. Social, political and religious training obscures that similarity. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 08:01:03 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: JW Subject: Loose Premies Message: Hey this is really interesting JW, and may put a few missing pieces into the ole premie puzzle. I once nonchantly asked an old premie buddy of my ex if he ever had difficulty practising K etc, and he told me that in the 80's he rejected premie-life for a year, made heaps of cash and shoved it all up his nose! I certainly didn't relate it to a wider trend, but considering what you've just said, maybe it was. This bloke had done a lot of personal service for the Big M too. As for wife-swapping etc, because most of the premies I knew were old hippies and they all seemed to have slept with each other even prior to coming into contact with the Big M, any stories of that ilk that I heard about, didn't phase me too much, even if it did take place in the 80s! I also think the premie scene here (and other Oz-exes can probably back this up) has always been a bit incestuous - maybe not so much partner-swapping, but more like successive moving around the premie community. As for the recreational drug use, the premies I know who still do it, do it very sporadically and in a 'sacred' context, again it seems, leftover behaviour from their hippie LSD days. I obviously don't mind this too much, since I've already divulged tales of my own fungi escapades! I've learnt a hell of a lot about dubious premie morality in these last few months, and it's not surprising it is so questionable considering that their role model preaches one thing and practises another. Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 19:57:16 (EDT)
From: petebear Email: None To: TD Subject: Loose Premies Message: I remember the festivals near Disney World in 1978 and 1979 - Hans Jayanti - as I recall. Anyway there was a significant arm of the security people that were full time trying to close up organised prostitution and drug distribution at the tent site. At the time I thought ' How terrible - don't they know what they are missing' now I think 'Just a big bunch of people doing cops and robbers type stuff - but very bizarre' Maharaj Ji never mentioned that when he yacked on about 'what a great place this is, all these premies practicing knowledge together - etc etc etc' Cheers Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 01:31:17 (EDT)
From: Barney Email: None To: petebear Subject: Loose Premies in the 70s Message: Indeed, that's what I heard about the Kissimee festivals too. And I know of 'deals' and stuff moving north from there. The drugs really started mid-late 70s. Supposedly, drug deals might have been a precursor to jumbling, too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 13:56:06 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: petebear Subject: Loose Premies Message: There were lots of drugs coming in from South America on the charter flights to the festivals in Kissimmee in 1978 and 1979. I think the drugs were bought and sold at the festivals and then distributed around the country. I also heard about the prostitution ring as well, although I think it might have also been connected to the drug sales, as some kind of payment for getting drugs. It's the main reason there were not more big, international, outdoor festivals in the states after 1979. It got to hot because of the drug trade. There was also a lot of drug dealing in and around the Miami satsang hall by premies in the Miami community in 1979 and 1980. The FBI actually had undercover agents IN the satsang hall to try to get evidence. I was actually told this by FBI agents, when I was CC in Miami during this period. It was a real mess. I used to specifically ask people I knew to be drug dealers to make large contributions to the Boeing 707 plane project everytime we had one of those 'emergency' fundraisers and everything had to be in cash. They usually made the contributions I asked for. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 01:12:23 (EDT)
From: Barney Email: None To: JW Subject: Loose Premies Message: Jeezus, JW! That's pretty serious stuff! You must have imagined the consequences of a big bust and the press. But, I guess as the CC and a true devotee you would having been willing to take the rap instead ratting up, huh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 12:53:00 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Barney Subject: Loose Premies Message: We were really careful to fully cooperate with the FBI. This was both in regard to the community and the festivals. We gave them full cooperation and access because the publicity for the cult would have been awful. I didn't personally have anything to do with it. The community premie also had a big immigration problem because premies from other countries would stay in Miami after programs, illegally. That's also why the big international programs at that Kissimmee swamp never happened again. M needed to distance himself from the drug trade. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 23:20:04 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: JW Subject: Loose Premies Message: This is good stuff. I wish everyone would write down their memoirs. I'll bet one hell of a good book could be pieced together. I thought about writing a book myself ( I have one complete book under my belt, unpublished, of course--lame credentials I admit, and even told Jim about this idea, in a fit of manic activity) but I bet the talent exists right here on this forum to do a great job of it. I think it would sell, too, but maybe I'm being manic again :) Beats the shit out of paranoid, don't you think JW? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 07:28:00 (EDT)
From: Juan Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Barcelona event Message: Hello premies and ex-premies, I have just discovered this interesting site at a house of a friend. I have just attended the Barcelona festival and must say that I have since had doubts. In Spain here we do not have much active access to Elan Vital and I thought that much that was said at the event was lacking in content. I have had knowledge for 8 years and am now thinking that I have been taken for a ride. Maharaji is not saying that he is anything but I think he is implying that he is knowing more than ordinary people and that because of this we should practice these techniques in order to become happy and make the best of this life. I now do not think that he knows what he talks about. If he does not know this he should not be trying to influence people to adopt his preferred lifestyle and from the small amount I have read on this forum, his advice and teachings can actually do harm to people. I am pleased to have found this site as it has convinced me not to carry on trying to achieve happiness through using the tools that Maharaji has given me. They have given some good experience but cut me off from many others. I hope that this is comprended as I have not practiced my english very much lately. Juan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 11:06:00 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Juan Subject: Barcelona event Message: Juan: Excellent post. Don't worry about your use of english, it is fine. I think you will find that some ex-premies on this site continue to use the techniques and some don't. Some believe in god and some don't. But, ALL of us (ex-premies) agree that maharaji's personality cult is misleading and dangerous at the very least. 'Taken for a ride' is a very nice way of describing it, Juan. You appear to be coming to the same conclusion that many have after seeing one of his programs. The 'man' just doesn't measure up to the hype. You have started to question his truthfulness. This is a good thing. I think, after you have spent awhile here, that you will be very surprised by the amount of information that you DIDN'T know about maharaji. I think I can speak for everyone here by saying, 'Welcome' to this site. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 17:25:13 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Juan Subject: Barcelona event Message: You English is fine! You should read or hear my Spanish, it's not even close to how well you are doing. Thank you for saying the nice things about forum. I think a lot of people come here and have a certain filter on, and call the posts they read 'negative' This gets said a lot and it is too simplistic. Although people do express anger, there is also a lot of funny stuff and happy things and also a lot of therapy going on here. What bugs me about M (what doesn't?) is he may not say he is something but he implies it third hand. He will have vidoes going and he is talking over the video about 'The Master' while the video is showing him. Isn't that implicitly saying that He is the master he is talking about? And it goes on and on .... Sounds like brainwashing techniques to me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 21:46:18 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Juan Subject: Barcelona event Message: Hola, Juan. Su ingles is muy bien-mejor que mi espanol. Me gusta su composicion (es composicion una palabara en espanol?) Que dice Maharaji in Barcelona? Porque no le gusta? (en ingles, por favor) No creo en Maharaji. El tiene mucho dinero y pregunta los premies por sus dinero siempre. El dice los premies, 'Digame todos el amor'-hay no amor por sus familias de los premies. Hay premies in mi familia, pero no estoy una premie. Quera ver una premie por veinte-cinco anos, pero ahora no quiere ver una premie. Me gusta este website. Algunos de los personas que escriben aqui son muy intelligente y interesante. Ellos ayudan personas in este 'cult' si quieren salir el groupo. Lo siento, mi espanol is muy mal. Yo escribia en ingles in el futuro. Hasta la vista, mi amigo! VP (Don't laugh, eb, it's been years and I did the best I could :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 18:13:36 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Juan Subject: Barcelona event Message: I'm happy you found this site. All the best to you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Aug 29, 1998 at 18:43:30 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Feedback from another Ex Message: This was sent as Feedback to the site, but I want to post it here also so that people can check out Arthur's website. He includes an account of his time in DLM on his site, but for those who want to jump right to that page, you can do so by clicking here. Hello, it's good to see so many brave ex-premies speaking out and reminding people of the effects of DLM. I see so many active premies also communicating with you, some of whom I know (even under their real names, not just the aliases they use in the letters they send). My own story of cult involvement is given in full along with many other cult related articles and a devastating attack on meditation in general on my web site http://www.arthurchappell.clara.net/ just go to my contents page when you get there for details. I welcome your feedback, and I may print up some of the best (& worst) so let me know if you'd prefer anonymity if you do. Best wishes. Arthur Chappell arthurchappell@clara.net Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Aug 29, 1998 at 19:48:53 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Brian Subject: Feedback from another Ex Message: Dear Brian, I found Arthur's account to be very generous and authentic. I certainly hope he shares here if he feels the interest. Thanks for posting the link. It has brought up some un-thought of connections for me between being recruited into 'Knowledge' and into doing New Age Seminars. I like the way Arthur asks questions about religion as a whole as well. Most of all though, I love reading other people's stories when they include self-awareness and lots of grokky little details that make you feel like you were there! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Aug 29, 1998 at 21:20:06 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Brian Subject: Feedback from another Ex Message: Interesting but I don't see the need to get into another 'ism' myself. Also his attack on meditation seems a bit pointless. It's a bit like someone attacking tennis or cycling. If he doesn't like meditation of any kind then that's his preference but he won't convert anybody who feels a benefit from meditation. My own form of meditation suits me fine but I wouldn't expect everyone to want to get into it. I think such things are a personal choice and such things as temperement and psychological make-up play an important part. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Aug 30, 1998 at 14:49:47 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Feedback from another Ex Message: Interesting but ... 'Interesting'? Come on, David, Arthur's story is a little more than that, isn't it? Like how about one of the best-stated accounts yet of someone's capture and escape from Maharaji's clutches? I don't see the need to get into another 'ism' myself. But don't you see, David, you've already got one? You believe in 'God', right? Sure, your God is non-denominational, amorphous, hard to pin down and not asking for donations. But he's still there all the same, isn't he? The term 'humanist' does not denote an 'ism' such as you suggest. In that respect, it's a funny word, delineated more by what it says about what a person doesn't believe than what they do. Basically, as I see it, it means someone who rejects God but not much of the core moral traditions we've usually associated with religious teachings, e.g. being kind of nice to people and putting on a happy. Also his attack on meditation seems a bit pointless. It's a bit like someone attacking tennis or cycling. That's not true at all. Tennis and cycling are sports plain and simple. Meditation ... what is it? That's a good question, isn't it? Is it a link to some higher consciousness? Is it a relaxation technique? Is it an ultimately destructive mind-fuck? Do you know for sure what the answer is? I don't. I think it's completely fair for Arthur to state his opinion even though you may not share it. If he doesn't like meditation of any kind then that's his preference but he won't convert anybody who feels a benefit from meditation. In fact he may. My own form of meditation suits me fine but I wouldn't expect everyone to want to get into it. I think such things are a personal choice and such things as temperement and psychological make-up play an important part. Fine, but why discourage discussion on the issue? I mean you're more than happy to share your meditation experiences, what you think about it and all. What's wrong with Arthur simply telling it like he sees it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 06:59:30 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jim Subject: Well Jim Message: I just feel like going against the common opinion here, it must be the mood I'm in. There was some misunderstanding about meditation which came from the article. Maharaji doesn't advocate hypaventilation as a practise. And Arthur wasn't saying that Maharaji was advocating hypaventilation. He was just talking about some methods of meditation. Meditation is not a cure all and I do think that cults can make it into something which it isn't. It's not God realisation and all that chakre stuff is balony, as far as I'm concerned. I think a cult tries to invent an identity for people and then make them try to attain it. But nobody ever does attain it. Meditation has its place. It can slow people down. But then so can hypnosis or self hypnosis. I don't meditate all the time but I do find myself coming back to it, when the spirit takes me and I feel like doing it. I think 'over meditation' can be harmful or expecting too much from it. That could lead to extreme introversion and isolation. Regarding your email; I may read The Blind Watchmaker but I'll have to see what my spirit guides say about it first. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 10:20:01 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Sir David Subject: Correction Message: David, I don't think there is anything ambiguous about what Arthur said about hyperventilation and the the 'Word', and he definitely appears to be talking about Knowledge and not other meditations: 3/. THE HOLY NAME (THE VIBRATION) - This is basically deep hyperventilation, or over-breathing. Inhale slowly, deeply, smoothly, through your nose, and then slowly exhale, but before all the air is out you start breathing in again, and you just keep going, never quite letting all the air out. This overfeeds the brain with oxygen, and creates an artificial but potent drug like high which can obliterate some brain cells in the process. This was part of his description of the four Knowledge techniques that he received. Like you, I had never heard of it being taught or practised in this way, which is why I raised the query below. I suppose the method might have come about through an initiator doing his own thing, or was maybe a passing fashion that developed within the Manchester community. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 19:36:12 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Well Jim Message: I think a cult tries to invent an identity for people and then make them try to attain it. But nobody ever does attain it. Wow what a perceptive comment SD. Now you really got me thinking. Since I left Knowledge, I have been having quite an 'identity crisis'. Can anyone else (esp. those who newly left Knowledge?) relate? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 20:05:18 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Judith Subject: Identity Crisis Message: As I slowly pulled away from maharaji in the early eighties, I deleloped an identity crisis (more like an identity virus). But then, I had an identity crisis before I went in. Come to think of it, I've always had an identity crisis (especially while I was following maharaji). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 20:57:38 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Judith Subject: identity crisis Message: Dear Judith Yes, I can relate. Actually, feeling like I was getting further and further from who I really was was one of the first triggers for me in questionning MJ. Part of the process since then has been one of trying to reclaim myself. Not that I was particularly together when I got K in my early twenties. For me, getting comfortable about who I am has been a major theme in the whole process of questionning my involvement with MJ, leaving, and recovering. Re Sir David's comment about the cult-invented identity: YES. I was particularly stupid in that I really tried to live up to the premie ideal. I had a dad who had very high expectations for me which I couldn't meet and I think that translated over into trying to be the best premie. Which was impossible. And thus painful. And FUCKING RIDICULOUS! The process of getting comfortable with who I am was often hard, sometime still is, but overall has been very rewarding. Love Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 20:49:41 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Diz Subject: identity crisis - to Diz Message: Diz thanks for answering. For me, getting comfortable about who I am has been a major theme in the whole process of questionning my involvement with MJ, leaving, and recovering. This I totally relate to, it's exactly what I'm going through. I have been through this horrible period of self-hate but I see it's probably always been there, I just never could confront it. So running to stuff like Knowledge is a way of agreeing - yeah I'm not good enough and I really need saving (or 'transforming' or 'drugging'). I've been wondering what on earth I expected of myself in my life - did I think I was supposed to be the first woman on the moon or something? Thanks for all your posts, I have gained a lot from reading them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 08:29:38 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Judith Subject: identity crisis - to Judith Message: Ta Judith, that's really sweet of you. It's completely my pleasure. Actually, after I sent off that message to you I realised how I'd managed, in one breath, to say I was getting more accepting of myself (which is indeed true), and also to get down on myself for having been a 'try hard' premie. I sat on the train and wrote a reframing of my involvement, which wasn't such a put-down. I've been hanging around this forum for about a month now, and have really learned a lot. Sometimes, like what happened with that post to you, I see the inconsistencies and conditioned thinking in myself. So - it's an opportunity to become clearer, to drop some of the rubbish I worked so hard to absorb for 20 years. Best wishes Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 21:49:26 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Judith Subject: Well Jim Message: In the recent light of my realisation of what divine light is, I can now see the whole cult in a totally new light. The old name, 'Divine Light Mission' was based on a dangerous myth that gazing at an optical distortion was divine and not what it really is - a damaging practise. Look, I've really realised something here. For the first time in 25 years I've actually seriously got into practising the light technique. And after less than a week of regular practise of looking at this 'light', I cannot see properly and have a migrain headache. I guess I'll get over it but it clearly illustrates what a myth the whole identity of being a premie is based on. It's fallen at the first hurdle - light is a damaging and unnatural practise. What other myths have we assimulated without realising it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 22:35:19 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Sir David Subject: I forgot to tell you-light Message: Dear Sir, I think I spaced out last night when posting about light. When I meditated on light steadily for months the light changed from blobs of color and colored donuts into symetrical designs. I think it is like most of what this life has to offer, many different things for the different ways people relate. I have experienced light without trying and have had what I call visions, seeing things I know aren't really 'there'. Some of that was light some I'm not so sure. Hope your feeling better though and no more migranes. I can't even stand to have the slightest headache so I can't imagine. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 18:31:16 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Superstition... Message: A cause which might be attributed to your experience is from a superstitious and paranoid perception that I might have once believed as a premie...that the negative experience is a consequence of your leaving M and revealing techniques to others! I'm glad to be free of that! The fact that I can state the fear/justification angle on it shows the programming I received as a premie. Hope you are better soon! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Aug 30, 1998 at 14:09:52 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Brian Subject: Thanks much, Arthur Message: Arthur, Your story is really well told. Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain what happened so poignantly. Perhaps you could ask Brian to include your speech in the Journey's section and to link your site to this. Really, I can't imagine your tale NOT being available to any premie or aspirant finding this page. Some parts of your story are absolutely chilling. To think that the cult had slipped into acting out some of the cliche strong-arm tactics that were still a bit foreign to us in my days (72 to 81). Like that thing about being 'held' in the anteroom ('anti-room'?) during satsang. In fact that whole part of your story, and how the cult wrestled and 'negotiated' with you for that last bit of independent thinking. That's incredible. Back in the seventies we prided ourselves on a certain restraint we felt we exercised given that we did indeed have THE truth, THE Lord, THE only way. That is, we WEREN'T strong-arming each other like the Moonies, we weren't blatantly lying to one another or 'even' outsiders. By your time, though, it seems that premies did indeed slip to a lower level of pressure tactics more akin to classic cult manoeuvres. I'd be interested in hearing anything more you'd care to tell us about. By the way, how old are you? How old were you when you first got sucked in? Have you had any interesting encounters with premies since leaving? Really, Arthur, any other details you'd like to tell us about. Your report should be essential reading for anyone thinking of joining this cult. Thanks again. Look forward to hearing more from you. If you like, I wouldn't mind hearing from you directly as well: heller@bc1.com Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 15:35:29 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Arthur's Account Message: The Maharaji cult is based on deceit. That's for sure. But I frankly don't recall that satsang was intentionally deceptive, or that premies or aspirants were ever told to stop asking questions or get out, like apparently happened to Arthur. Clearly, there was a lot of pressure for aspirants to repress questions or doubts they had, because to express them was evidence that one wasn't 'ready.' So, it was a big lie, and still is, that the aspirant process is for 'getting someone's questions answered.' It's the opposite, it applies pressure to learn to repress questions and doubts, a process that is very important and used extensively after one becomes a premie. Satsang was 'deceptive' in that those of us who were already programmed into the cult, learned to fear our own minds as well as those of other premies or aspirants, and we also learned not to really answer people's questions, but I don't ever recall this as a conscious effort to deceive, or that we manipulated someone's weaknesses or confusion to try to ensnare them. I mean, the whole cult was set up in a way that might have had that effect, but I don't think, at least in the states, it constituted any kind of conscious attempt or that there was any kind of a stated conspiracy among the premies to do that. And I am speaking as someone who was sometimes in charge or aspirant programs in some communities. For example, Arthur says there was a 'strategy' in recruitment that included trying to 'divert his attention,' don't answer any questions, smile at him a lot...charm, smarm, sales pitch... and that these were 'classic brainwashing techniques to keep you off balance so you can't assess what is happening to you' and relies on 'information overload.' Now, in retrospect (other than the information overload, as there really isn't much 'information' in my opinion), these things might have the EFFECT, but I'm not so sure that it was an actual 'strategy.' I DO agree that another powerful force in getting people into the cult was group pressure, and the desire to BELONG to the group. I do recall going to satsang before I received knowledge, and feeling that everyone there had something I didn't, understood and communicated on a level with each other that I couldn't, 'knew' something that made everything else fall into place, and fit into a supportive environment that I wasn't a part of. It is a very powerful thing to see and then want to experience what that is all about. Plus, I think Arthur clearly explains the idea that you have to be 'ready' for knowledge, and that you are totally programmed as a cult member before you even receive it. That's were the real brainwashing takes place, not afterwards. The 'carrot' of being given this beautiful 'gift' and making you continually more anxious to get it, and when you do, you have invested so much, that you are very committed in wanting it all to be true. But I get a little skeptical, when someone describes these events as conscious efforts to deceive. I don't really recall it as a conscious effort on my part. I really believed it was true, and was so programmed that I didn't see anything deceptive about the process. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:06:11 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Arthur's Account Message: But I get a little skeptical, when someone describes these events as conscious efforts to deceive. I don't really recall it as a conscious effort on my part. I really believed it was true, and was so programmed that I didn't see anything deceptive about the process. Joe, You're right we never overtly worked each other over the way Arthur's described. I remember thinking so often that we couldn't be a cult simply because we didn't do that shit. Lock people in rooms, stuff like that. But, I also find Arthur's account very plausible on its face. I'm left thinking that, at least in Manchester, things deteriorated that far. What's the alternative? That Arthur's lying? Could be but I don't get that feeling. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:37:46 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Arthur's Account Message: Personally, I think he is lying, or consciously exaggerating, but what the fuck's the difference? I found the whole thing boring, too long, disconnected, and a chore to wade through. And the rest of his stuff, the puffed up opinions of another blowhard. The part that did me in was the one where the girl giving satsang supposedly said the ''the light he had given her was the best orgasm she had ever achieved in her life. '' Yeah, right, she said that. The whole thing reeks of fabrication. That's just my opinion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 22:36:33 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: And what if you're wrong? Message: Personally, I think he is lying, or consciously exaggerating, but what the fuck's the difference? I found the whole thing boring, too long, disconnected, and a chore to wade through. And the rest of his stuff, the puffed up opinions of another blowhard. Gerry, I've emailed Arthur explaining that some on the forum are pretty skeptical about some of his account. Hopefully he'll reply here or in email and we can better assess his story. But I really wonder how you can be so sure that he's at least 'consciously exaggerating'. What exactly did he say that makes it such a sure bet for you? The part that did me in was the one where the girl giving satsang supposedly said the ''the light he had given her was the best orgasm she had ever achieved in her life. '' Yeah, right, she said that. So that's it? You're so sure that she didn't say that? I heard premies say shit like that all the time. Nectar was 'inner pussy' if you want to get right down to it. How do you like that? Am I a liar too? The whole thing reeks of fabrication. That's just my opinion. And if you're wrong? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 10:11:27 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: And what if you're wrong? Message: And what if you're wrong? Then I'm wrong. Big Fucking Deal. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 17:26:18 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Gerry Subject: And what if you're wrong? Message: Gerry, Hey, that evil twin is coming out :) You gemini, you! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 17:47:59 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: VP Subject: to VP Message: Thanks for the laugh, VP. I do intend to answer your email. I just haven't been ''in the mood,'' lately. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 12:24:22 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Gerry Subject: to Gerry Message: Gerry, I'll look forward to hearing from you, but wait until the other twin emerges from hiding. Just kidding. BTW, my stocks have taken a beating, so I can relate to your mood. Don't see any end to that in sight either:( About Arthur, cults attract some pretty weird messed up folks as well as some who are normal. It doesn't surprise me AT ALL that someone mixed-up with Maharaji could have sexual hang-ups or other problems (depression, low self esteem, trouble with reality, trouble telling the truth, etc.) Just remember some of the posts that have been made here by premies. It seems to me that the majority of his cult experience story could be real. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 14:43:14 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: VP Subject: to VP Message: About Arthur, cults attract some pretty weird messed up folks as well as some who are normal. It doesn't surprise me AT ALL that someone mixed-up with Maharaji could have sexual hang-ups or other problems (depression, low self esteem, trouble with reality, trouble telling the truth, etc.) I agree, I just can't trust someone who mixes in fantasy and fact. As far as sexual hang-ups, there's help available and these things shouldn't be treated lightly, or accepted as OK. Given how strong the sexual instinct is, it can come out in some twisted and pretty harmful ways when not expressed. And who are the usual victims? Women and children. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 15:07:08 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Gerry Subject: sex is great, M ain't-Gerry Message: I'm not being cavalier about sexual hang-ups or other psychological disfunctions. I agree that people with these problems need help. This is another way that Maharaji's message has potential to be so harmful: people who need REAL help think they are getting it, but they aren't. They get a placebo instead of the treatment they need. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:14:15 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Inspired! Message: Nectar was 'inner pussy' if you want to get right down to it. How do you like that? I'm going for a knowledge review! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:40:06 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Arthur's Account Message: But, I also find Arthur's account very plausible on its face. I'm left thinking that, at least in Manchester, things deteriorated that far. What's the alternative? I don't think he is lying; it's just the way he interpreted the situation. I think it might be that the initiator wanted to have a one-on-one interview with him and he had to wait in a room for it while satsang was going on. I think likely old Arthur was labeled a 'bongo aspirant.' I kind of get that in reading between the lines he wrote that he saw himself that way as well. Premies may have seen him as disruptive, perhaps hostile, or just kind of nuts, and decided that the initiator should talk to him to find our where he was at. I bet dimes to donuts it was David Smith, who was in the UK about that time. He made it sound like he was intentionally PREVENTED from going to satsang, and forced to sit in an adjacent room to drive home that he had been excluded, and this was all done intentionally to make him want knowledge even more. I tend to doubt that. I just never saw anything like that in my involvement, but I wouldn't be surprised that someone could interpret it that way Arthur did when it was happening to them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 18:48:32 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: JW Subject: Arthur's Account Message: It was a speech he gave. Of course he juiced it up for public consumption. He just shouldn't try to spoon feed it here. The bullshit detectors are too well developed. He could get away with it in a ''secular'' crowd, but we were there. Two thumbs down. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 20:57:40 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: JW Subject: Arthur's Account Message: JW I don't think he is lying; it's just the way he interpreted the situation. That's exactly how I saw it. You are so SENSIBLE. Are you a Libra? (since we're onto the astrology cliches). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 20:59:40 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Judith Subject: Arthur's Account shd be TO JW Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 22:15:16 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Arthur's Account Message: Joe, I agree with all you say. However, what if things just kind of slid a bit? I mean, what if Arthur is simply telling the truth? This is the point I've tried to make a few times when we've discussed premie lying. There is necessarily a bigger cover-up now, requiring more conscious deception, than I ever experienced. Maybe big-shot premies in my day knew so much more that had to be concealed but I didn't. I used to unabashedly ask people to ask me anything, I wasn't afraid. My guru had no secrets and neither did I. (Once, when I was sent to the interior of British Columbia to do 'Frontier Prachar'I arranged to do a radio interview at the local station in Kelowna. The deejay was compeltely friendly, seemingly interested and all that until we got on the air. As soon as we did, he pummelled me with the family split, ostentatious wealth, Millenium predictions gone flat. Naively, I thought I could deal with all of them, jsut by carefully explaining away the confusion, referring to the timeless truth, even the master's lila. I must have sounded like one of those Heaven's Gaters they left behind.) Now, however, every premie who was around then knows that they have to deceive people to get them to even listen with a straight face. They're further down the road of deception than we ever were and maybe, just like Arthur says, they're playing at a more blatant level of coercion than we ever were. Anyway, I plan to email Arthur about all this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 01, 1998 at 23:08:09 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Arthur's Account Message: Arthur was talking about 1981, Jim. I was still around then. The only explanation would be that things were really different in the UK than in the states. That's possible, but Idoubt premies ever felt confident enough to actually lock people up against their will and force some kind of ultimatum on them. I wasn't ever afraid of questions either. I had an answer for everything, mainly that it doesn't matter because Maharaji was offering the one true experience, the purpose of life. I think the decption now is just that nobody can say anything to new people or aspirants. Nothing. Questions aren't asked OR answered. They just watch videos and Maharaji is SO paranoid that he forces the premies to read canned scripts. That's how far the deception has gotten. By the time questions are allowed, the aspirant is programmed into repressing them, so they ask softball questions, like 'why are you so beautiful?' and 'why am I so lucky to know you?' Gag, barf. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 21:09:18 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: JW Subject: Arthur's Account Message: By the time questions are allowed, the aspirant is programmed into repressing them, so they ask softball questions, like 'why are you so beautiful?' and 'why am I so lucky to know you?' Gag, barf. I've said this before but I'll tell it again. When I got knowledge we were encouraged to show our gratitude when he asked if there were any questions (at the end of the session). So I said 'Maharaji, ever since I heard about you, my life has been changed' and he said 'for the better I hope'. Now I think of it, how's that for a cynical, knowing kind of reply? I mean it wasn't ' that's wonderful, my child' or something - whatever I was hoping he'd say (in my idealistic child-state as someone pointed out here recently). Sounds like even he can't cope with the gush and the effusion, eh? And mine was pretty straight compared to what some others said. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 15:06:04 (EDT)
From: arthur chappel Email: arthurchappell@clara.net To: Jim Subject: Thanks much, Arthur Message: Answers to your points; I'm now 36, (born Feb 9th 1962) and I was 19 when initially approached by DLM in 1981. (May). I briefly went to college when I did my degree studies (Bolton Institute of Higher Ed) and a Premie (still active) was on the course with me, and even after I wrote a brief article on cults for the student Magazine (my first public statement of my experiences and an attack on another sect recruiting on campus) we remained friends. He took the trouble to tell me when another dear Premie friend of mine died of cancer, which was thoughtful. Another Premie used to cross the stree to avoid me after I left, and looked panic stricken when he realised i was serving at a market or car boot sale stall he was visiting; couldn't run off fast enough). A few Premies I knew are correspondants on this site, and one has contacted me, though not yet about my article, which you are welcome to reproduce onthe site, and if possible plug myown site, where several articles touch on DLm, cults in general and anti-meditation. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Aug 30, 1998 at 17:56:05 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Brian/Arthur Subject: A great journey... Message: Thanks very much for your story Arthur. As always I'm grateful to hear, in detail, premies journeys to and from the Big M... Also very interesting to read the Humanist stuff as well. Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Aug 30, 1998 at 20:28:39 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: None To: Arthur Subject: Wonderful. Message: Thanks Arthur (and Brian, lest we forget!) I'm going to read this at least twice more. I think, on first reading, it is the most the most compelling, comprehensive first-hand acount of our collective experience I have come across yet. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Aug 30, 1998 at 20:50:14 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: all Subject: Hyperventilation Message: I am intrigued by Arthur's account of 'the Word' technique. As he describes it, it does indeed sound like enforced hyperventilation which is a well-documented method used by Rajneesh and other guru frauds to engineer a quick 'natural high'. But that isn't how I remember the breath-watching aspect of our devotions - nor has anyone posting here ever described the technique like that - where you start the next intake of breath before the previous one is fully expired. If M has picked up on this trick and adopted it as approven modus operandi then I can only say his fraudulence is even more transparent than I had realised. Can anybody clarify or confirm this adjustment to the student's rule book? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Aug 30, 1998 at 22:20:55 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Hyperventilation Message: Nigel: If this account of the technique is accurate, it sounds like M wanted to 'improve' it, ala kundalini yoga. Force hyperventilation breathing exercises and breat holding are their fare. Yeah, it'll get you high....then it gives you a hell of a headache. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 00:54:24 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Mike Subject: Hyperventilation Message: We were told to relax and not force the breathe. It doesn't seem to have been a latter-day practice. I'm still thinking about the comments on people sort of fabricating a lot of their experiences in their own minds. This has got me really wondering about how desperate people are to have these experiences or at least to believe they are having them. In a way, maybe it is better for those people to have a 'figurehead' to believe in then not to have anything to believe in? I mean if they do have a genuine experience it's regardless of Knowledge, and if they don't they are self-deceivers but obviously feel the need to be. The longer I live the more tolerant I feel of ignorance and foolishness because the more I see my own self more clearly. Rick's comment about 'what you really want' strikes me as being most important about life. All the rest is just window dressing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 00:50:48 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Hyperventilation Message: As of 3-4 years ago, the idea was still to keep your breathing natural. I don't think the problem lies in the techniques per se. It's in the meanings that surround them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 10:35:29 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Diz Subject: Hyperventilation Message: Diz: Agreed. I know that isn't what I was taught, either. Breathing 'normally' was what we were told to do. It just sounded like, maybe, the technique had changed like the others have. Someone that was initiated after I was (1973) would have to make that call, though. So I appreciate your input, considering your more 'recent' arrival on the scene. I know, as I stated in an earlier post, that the 'kundalini' people use hyperventilation as a technique. The fact that they 'get high' is of little surprise. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 15:10:00 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Hyperventilation Message: I recognize this description as similar to Rebirthing. I tried it once and didn't like it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 19:40:03 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Rick Subject: Hyperventilation - to Rick Message: Rick Well spotted - that is the technique used for Rebirthing. I hadn't remembered it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 01:04:01 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Arthur Subject: Feedback from another Ex Message: Dear Arthur What a story! I've never heard someone express so clearly the cult aspects of involvement with GMJ. I don't doubt you are telling the truth. I thought what happened to ME as a premie was heavy - yours takes the cake! That Manchester mob sound like something else. I have never thought of the premies I was involved with as being so heavy, so consciously manipulative - I don't think they were, for the most part. But many of the messages and strategies you talked about were so recognisable. So much can be justified in the name of 'truth.' Thank you for your honesty and insight. Agree with those above that it would be excellent to have your journey as part of this site. I'm still shaking. Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 14:17:04 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Brian Subject: Thanks, Arthur Message: Hey Arthur, That was a great piece of work. Thank you for writing it and thanks to Brian for sharing it. I had NO idea what the significance of the lotus flower was. I'm really glad you included that. I was also fascinated with the way you were denied Satsang in order to get control over your mind before they would allow you to receive Knowledge. Very disturbing-- I never heard of this before. Some of the stuff that the initiators said to you was so weird. I guess that is why everything is so rehearsed and controlled now. I noticed that you also think Maharaji looked like Carmen Miranda--great minds think alike, eh? Seriously, it deserves a link somewhere. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:56:41 (EDT)
From: Arthur Chappell Email: arthurchappell@clara.net To: VP Subject: Thanks, Arthur Message: This is actually a reply to all the correspondence I'vereadon my article based on my talk about my experiences in DLM (1981-5). Thank you to everyone for your observations. Some of you clearly agree with me and others are angry, and a few suspect I am lying, or decieved about what was going on for sure. Much Premie experience is unbelievable to a non-cult member's audience. My initial talks were to forums of ex-cult members and the families of cult victims, who were aware of some dangers in cults and could relate to what was being covered, but a new audience of little direct experince of cults, (beyond slamming a door in a Jehovas Witness's face) is a different matter, so talking of Darshan, meditation blankets and drinking Charananda Water which our Guru washed his feet in, is a real eye opener for a generally non-credulous audience. My aim was to convey total self honesty in many ways. Note that I don't regard myself as a passive victime, totally manipulated bythe cult, but emphasise some elements of choice and self-responsibility too. I don't blame the cult for what was initially an opportunist capture of me, (they were genuinely surprised I turned up both the first and second times I went, thinking me too cynical). The hard line tactics were largely due to my harsh, critical questioning, which was often accusatory, and probably put a few other would-be recruits off joining. It was their alternative to kicking me out altogether as unsuitable material. In some ways it was a desperate, and unusual measure, so I'm not surprised that it wasn't universal in many of your experiences, though some of you may have seen or heard of similar. Yes, as JW observes in his letter, they and I saw me as a 'bongo aspirant' a loose cannon. Think about it as to how they might feel now if I suddenly went back. They wouldn't rust me and would probably feel threatened by my presense. At first at least, they would be sure to want to protect their latst recruits from contact with me for fear of me putting them off. That is actually how they regarded me then (and I wasn't even consciously tryingthen. In many ways itis giving satsangs that awakened my articulate creative delivery style, and made me start re-evaluating and questioning my experiences in such a brutally analytical way, despite their viewson the mind. Readers not familier with my article can find it on http://www.arthurchappell.clara.net/brainwashing.htm and look on my contents.htm page for related articles, especially my savage critique of meditation in all its forms (one that really got fierce replies when it appeared in The Skeptic. My 'The Last Tabboo article on my site deals with my ongoing virginity and briefly with the period of celibacy and abstinence of myy DLM period. It's probably the most self-honest piece of my work and the best place for gauging my sincerity and my sanity with regard to the article you are studying. I suspect the holy name is a form of hyperventilation, mild compared to some, ie, the Rajneesh extreme, but I could usually tell when I was sat next to a Premie in holy nmame from the sharp nasal breathing and vacuum cleaner attachment like noise. Again, my meditation article might help people here. It's not unknown for premies to get the techniques wrong. One girl I knew, initiated originally in Alask, finally got her Knowledge review eight years later in Manchester England (same day as my own, though mine was a mere week after initiation) and found she had practiced it all wrong for 8 years. And of course, Maharaji has modified the techniques, which were initially much more rigid a discipline than now, and i remember the anger some Premies felt when Beragons fell out of common usage in the cult. Thank you all for your feedback. Let me know if i can quote your views on my own site and if you want naming or even pseudo-naming in such. I'll watch this column with interest. Best wishes; arthurchappell@clara.net Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 21:26:10 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Arthur Chappell Subject: Thanks, Arthur Message: Arthur You reminded me that when I was doing service on a knowledge review, a year after I got knowledge, an instructor showed me I was doing the first technique 'wrongly'. I was astounded - a) that it happened b)it wasnt picked up at a knowledge review I went to But mainly, that's when I started becoming more aware of what was happening to me. Because at first I thought, oh, now maybe I will see light, I've been doing it wrong. And when that didn't happen I realised - how could it be so technical? The fingers just here, or you don't get enlightened? It made me realise how ridiculous 'knowledge' is. There's certainly something 'missing' and it isn't a correct technique. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |