Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 23

From: Aug 26, 1998

To: Sep 22, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5



jhughey -:- family impact -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 23:04:28 (EDT)
__Selene -:- family impact -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 12:39:36 (EDT)
____Mike -:- family impact -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 13:07:48 (EDT)
______VP -:- family impact -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 18:30:40 (EDT)
________Mike -:- family impact -:- Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 17:11:10 (EDT)
__________Judith -:- family impact -:- Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 21:23:59 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- family impact -:- Thurs, Sep 10, 1998 at 15:32:52 (EDT)
______________Jerry -:- family impact -:- Thurs, Sep 10, 1998 at 16:44:50 (EDT)
______________Diz -:- family impact -:- Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 09:31:34 (EDT)
________________Mike -:- To Jerry & Diz -:- Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 12:18:53 (EDT)
____jhughey -:- family impact -:- Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 19:40:50 (EDT)
____Mike -:- For Selene: Off-topic -:- Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 16:58:29 (EDT)
______Selene -:- For Selene: Off-topic -:- Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 17:42:34 (EDT)

Selene -:- biochemistry and nirvana -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 17:38:17 (EDT)
__Judith -:- biochemistry and nirvana -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 19:24:56 (EDT)
____Selene -:- better than what? -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 20:44:37 (EDT)
______Sir David -:- A fishy business -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 21:11:18 (EDT)
________Selene -:- A fishy business -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 22:57:01 (EDT)
__________Selene -:- lithium -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 23:03:25 (EDT)
____________Cheeseman -:- lithium -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 12:16:46 (EDT)
__Peter -:- biochemistry and my gramma -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 23:18:59 (EDT)
____Selene -:- biochemistry and my gramma -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 20:07:13 (EDT)
__Jean-Miche -:- Horrible NDE! -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 11:43:58 (EDT)
____Selene -:- Horrible NDE! -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 12:46:17 (EDT)
______Jean-Michel -:- Horrible NDE! -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 13:28:57 (EDT)

TD -:- The Spiritual Void -:- Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 20:42:56 (EDT)
__Katie -:- The Spiritual Void -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 01:14:30 (EDT)
____kEITH -:- The Spiritual Void -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 02:02:23 (EDT)
__bill -:- The Life on earth -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 03:30:40 (EDT)
____Sir David -:- The Life on earth -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 09:05:41 (EDT)
____Jerry -:- The Life on earth -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 10:09:54 (EDT)
______bill -:- The earth -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 04:20:13 (EDT)
____VP -:- The Life on earth -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 12:17:53 (EDT)
____Carol -:- The Life on earth:Thanks Bill! -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 18:49:34 (EDT)
______dvid m -:- The Life on earth:Thanks Bill! -:- Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 13:18:39 (EDT)
__Jean-Michel -:- The Spiritual Void? -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 10:49:23 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- Next issue -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 11:40:37 (EDT)
____Jerry -:- Therapy -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 13:05:21 (EDT)
______Jean-Michel -:- Therapy -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 17:03:31 (EDT)
________Mili -:- Therapy -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 17:28:38 (EDT)
__________Sir David -:- Therapy -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 20:57:38 (EDT)
____________jean-michel -:- Therapy -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 05:06:43 (EDT)
__________jethro -:- Therapy -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 03:17:16 (EDT)
__________TD -:- Therapy -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 07:35:19 (EDT)
________Jerry -:- K hallucinations -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 22:37:38 (EDT)
__________Diz -:- K hallucinations -:- Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 09:07:36 (EDT)
______Peter -:- Therapy -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 23:41:54 (EDT)
________Jerry -:- Therapy -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 00:07:31 (EDT)
__________TD -:- Making friends with the void -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 07:29:47 (EDT)
____________Jean-Michel -:- Making friends with the void -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 11:41:44 (EDT)
____________Rick -:- Making friends with the void -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 16:50:08 (EDT)
______________eb -:- Making friends with the void -:- Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 19:31:19 (EDT)
________________Judith -:- Making friends with the void -:- Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 21:39:03 (EDT)
____________Katie -:- Making friends with the void -:- Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 09:15:42 (EDT)
______________Judith -:- Making friends with the void -:- Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 21:43:25 (EDT)
________________Katie -:- Psychiatrists - to Judith -:- Thurs, Sep 10, 1998 at 18:11:06 (EDT)
__________________TD -:- Psychiatrists -:- Thurs, Sep 10, 1998 at 19:29:39 (EDT)
____________________Diz -:- Psychiatrists -:- Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 08:43:09 (EDT)
__________________Rick -:- Psychiatrists - to Judith -:- Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 00:11:27 (EDT)
____________________VP -:- Therapists-to Katie -:- Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 13:30:58 (EDT)
______________________Katie -:- Therapists-to VP and Rick -:- Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 14:08:59 (EDT)

Brian -:- Mr. Natural Meets 'The Kid' -:- Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 13:21:24 (EDT)
__Rick -:- Mr. Natural Meets 'The Kid' -:- Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 14:16:30 (EDT)
____Katie -:- Thanks to RT -:- Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 15:02:45 (EDT)
______Selene -:- Thanks to RT -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 15:25:31 (EDT)
________Judith -:- Thanks to RT: to Selene -:- Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 21:49:09 (EDT)
__________Crumb -:- It was the same on I think -:- Thurs, Sep 10, 1998 at 00:33:18 (EDT)
____________Selene -:- It was me, last post -:- Thurs, Sep 10, 1998 at 00:37:37 (EDT)
__Jerry -:- Mr. Natural Meets 'The Kid' -:- Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 15:01:48 (EDT)
____Bobby -:- Mr. Natural Meets 'The Kid' -:- Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 15:53:57 (EDT)
______TD -:- Mr. Natural Meets 'The Kid' -:- Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 17:27:03 (EDT)
________Katie -:- to TD -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 01:45:43 (EDT)
______Carol -:- Mr. Natural Meets 'The Kid' -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 19:07:57 (EDT)
__Katie -:- Forgot to say... -:- Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 18:18:20 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- Forgot to say... -:- Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 19:59:03 (EDT)
__Ar T -:- Mr. Natural Meets 'The Kid' -:- Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 22:19:54 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- You confused (ex-)premies -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 13:19:14 (EDT)
__Mike -:- More confused than ever... -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 15:04:09 (EDT)
____CD -:- More brain power -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 15:41:30 (EDT)
______Mike -:- No, more education -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 16:02:48 (EDT)
________Mickey the Pharisee -:- No, more education -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 19:55:17 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- Ok, then -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 13:20:34 (EDT)
______nigel -:- pah!!! -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 20:38:25 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- More confused than ever... -:- Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 16:56:47 (EDT)
__nigel -:- Three birthdays? -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 20:16:08 (EDT)
____VP -:- Test a theory -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 20:39:04 (EDT)
______nigel -:- Sorry - crap theory. -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 20:47:16 (EDT)
________VP -:- Sorry - crap theory. -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 20:52:22 (EDT)
__________nigel -:- Sorry - crap theory. -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 21:04:25 (EDT)
____________VP -:- oh, no! NOT the bank balance!! -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 21:12:58 (EDT)
______________nigel -:- genes for this, genes for that -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 21:31:29 (EDT)
________________VP -:- genes for this, genes for that -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 21:48:15 (EDT)
________________Carol -:- genes for this, genes for that -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 22:07:09 (EDT)
__________________Nigel -:- genes for this, genes for that -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 22:44:16 (EDT)
____________________Nigel -:- The man who mistook his -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 23:12:12 (EDT)
______________________Carol -:- The man who mistook his -:- Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 16:47:54 (EDT)
________________________nigel -:- Poland syndrome -:- Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 20:47:36 (EDT)
______________nigel -:- Whaddya mean? -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 21:39:32 (EDT)
________________VP -:- Whaddya mean? -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 21:53:00 (EDT)
__________________bookworm -:- can't disagree (nt) -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 22:09:05 (EDT)

Rick -:- Katie Thinks She's Slick -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 10:59:10 (EDT)
__VP -:- Katie Thinks She's Slick -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 11:20:20 (EDT)
__Mike -:- You're both SLICK! -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 12:09:48 (EDT)
__Katie -:- To Rick -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 13:13:49 (EDT)
__Nigel -:- I was pretty damn close! -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 20:06:02 (EDT)

Pheonix -:- Risen from the ashes -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 05:51:11 (EDT)

corvus rosaceus -:- Karma? - NO WAY! -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 18:56:25 (EDT)
__Keith -:- Karma? - NO WAY! -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 01:39:11 (EDT)
__VW -:- What Virginia Said -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 03:16:14 (EDT)
____Keith -:- Bounty -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 05:07:24 (EDT)
______corvus rosaceous -:- Instant Karma -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 16:59:31 (EDT)
________Mike -:- Instant Karma -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 17:04:08 (EDT)
__________Keith -:- Instant Karma -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 18:46:16 (EDT)
____________Carol -:- Instant Karma -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 18:51:19 (EDT)
______________Keith -:- Instant Karma -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 19:12:09 (EDT)
____________Jerry -:- Instant Karma -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 21:49:15 (EDT)
____________corvus rosaceus -:- K - Rap -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 14:09:28 (EDT)
______________Mike -:- K - Rap -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 14:24:54 (EDT)
______________Keith -:- c-pap -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 14:53:06 (EDT)
________________Jerry -:- c-pap -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 15:58:17 (EDT)
________________corbus rosaceus -:- One more time -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 16:04:16 (EDT)
__________________Mike -:- One more time -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 16:58:40 (EDT)
______________Jerry -:- K - Rap -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 15:56:42 (EDT)
________Gail -:- Instant Karma -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 18:25:07 (EDT)
________Carol -:- Instant Karma -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 18:38:30 (EDT)
________Jerry -:- Instant Karma -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 21:43:25 (EDT)

Keith -:- SELF -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 07:05:40 (EDT)
__bill -:- touch of grey -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 09:18:10 (EDT)
____eb -:- touch of grey -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:01:27 (EDT)
______bill -:- touch of gas -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:12:19 (EDT)
________Gerry -:- just plain touched -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:17:56 (EDT)
__________eb -:- just plain touched -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:48:40 (EDT)
__________bb -:- just plain -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:50:37 (EDT)
____________Gerry -:- just plain glad -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 15:08:25 (EDT)
______________bill -:- plain brown wrapper -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 15:33:53 (EDT)
________________Keith -:- plain brown wrapper -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 19:52:37 (EDT)
________bambi -:- touch of class -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:44:48 (EDT)
__________bb -:- touched by instructor fingers -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 15:08:50 (EDT)
____________eb -:- I agree. NT -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 16:53:04 (EDT)
____________VP -:- touched by instructor fingers -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 16:54:44 (EDT)
__________Robyn -:- touch of class -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 21:58:32 (EDT)
______bill -:- For Passing Thru -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:39:46 (EDT)
__Jim -:- ARE you 'Cosmon'? -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 10:16:00 (EDT)
__Richard -:- Too much self? -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 12:02:24 (EDT)
____Selene -:- Too much self? -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 19:02:30 (EDT)
______Judith -:- Too much self? - to Selene -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 19:25:18 (EDT)
________Selene -:- Too much self? - to Selene -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 14:14:35 (EDT)
______Jerry -:- Depression -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 21:59:53 (EDT)
________Selene -:- Depression - thanks Jerry -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 17:23:57 (EDT)
__________Peter -:- Styron's depression -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 00:32:49 (EDT)
______bill -:- Too much self? -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 00:43:21 (EDT)
________Katie -:- Too much self? to bill -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 01:32:15 (EDT)
__________Bobby -:- medication - off topic -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 09:20:36 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- Bobby- off topic -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 18:06:09 (EDT)
______________Bobby -:- Bobby- off topic -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 22:07:59 (EDT)
__________bb -:- Too much bill -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 10:34:44 (EDT)
____________Katie -:- Not enough bill -:- Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 13:05:09 (EDT)
______________VP missing bb's posts -:- Not enough bill lately-nt -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 13:05:40 (EDT)
________Selene -:- thank you too Bill! -:- Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 17:30:54 (EDT)
______Richard -:- Too much self? -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 05:57:17 (EDT)
________Judith -:- Too much self? -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 20:45:09 (EDT)
________Selene -:- Too much self? -:- Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 16:33:58 (EDT)
__John -:- warning, negative post -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 12:16:18 (EDT)
____Peter -:- nausea -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 01:10:01 (EDT)
__Mike -:- Trust -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 12:59:43 (EDT)
__VP -:- SELF -:- Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:34:52 (EDT)
____Keith -:- responding -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 01:30:27 (EDT)
______Jim -:- responding -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 11:08:56 (EDT)
________Keith -:- my punctuation -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 14:07:01 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- You just failed, bud -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 16:45:46 (EDT)
__Gail -:- SELF -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 18:33:12 (EDT)
____Keith -:- SELF -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 19:38:47 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Cliched goof -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 20:52:50 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Cliched goof -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 20:52:51 (EDT)
________Keith -:- Cliched goof -:- Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 21:39:54 (EDT)
__________bill -:- Cliched goof -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 01:23:49 (EDT)
____________Keith -:- Who cares ? -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 03:22:57 (EDT)
______________bill -:- Who cares ??? -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 11:09:06 (EDT)
________________Curmudgeon -:- Here's another Who cares ??? -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 11:27:33 (EDT)
__________________Keith -:- Here's another Who cares ??? -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 15:04:27 (EDT)
________________Gerry the terrible -:- Who cares ??? -:- Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 22:46:25 (EDT)
______________Mike -:- Who cares ? -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 14:47:46 (EDT)
______Gail -:- SELF -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 13:11:44 (EDT)
________bill -:- SELF made god -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 22:24:55 (EDT)
__________Gerry (curmudgeon) -:- SELF made god -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 22:42:27 (EDT)
____________Bobby -:- Economic change -:- Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 23:31:25 (EDT)
______________bill -:- Economic spare change -:- Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 11:00:05 (EDT)
________________Gerry -:- I have a dream... -:- Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 13:36:33 (EDT)
__________________Gerry -:- I might add... -:- Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 13:55:44 (EDT)
____________________Jerry -:- I might add... -:- Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 14:50:09 (EDT)
______________________Gerry -:- I might add... -:- Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 15:10:29 (EDT)
________________________Selene -:- I might add... -:- Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 16:49:14 (EDT)
__________________________Gerry -:- I might add... -:- Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 18:28:38 (EDT)
________________________Jerry -:- I might add... -:- Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 00:10:03 (EDT)
______________________Katie -:- I might add... -:- Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 18:00:13 (EDT)
________________________Jerry -:- I might add... -:- Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 23:51:42 (EDT)
__________________carol -:- I have a dream... -:- Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 16:57:19 (EDT)
____________________Gerry -:- I have a dream... -:- Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 18:49:45 (EDT)
______________________VP -:- I have a dream... -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 13:00:45 (EDT)
________________bobby -:- Economic spare change -:- Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 16:00:06 (EDT)
__________________bill -:- Economic spare change -:- Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 04:41:38 (EDT)


Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 23:04:28 (EDT)
From: jhughey
Email: jhughey@bigfoot.com
To: Everyone
Subject: family impact
Message:
I am interested in other people's experience in the relation to a premie and the effect on their and their children's lives. Growing up 'premie' bait-- how does a mother hold on and maintain the children's right to be themselves..
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 12:39:36 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: jhughey
Subject: family impact
Message:
I think my children were so put off by the whole premie thing, that it was a natural deterrant. They are real sharp, and picked up on the bullshit fairly quickly, once they reached those cynical teenage years.
Plus, I never pushed it on them.
When they were younger, they just had fun, lots of other kids their age to play with, our 'community' had lots of kiddie birthday parties, and potlucks, hiking activities, etc.
and kids were allowed at satsang and they liked the music and getting all the attention.
The traveling was grueling on me, but I am not sure they hated it as much as me.
I have seen some of the other kids grow up fully indoctrinated, but this doesn't seem to be the usual case. The ones I am thinking of have a step father initiator so that's pretty understandable.
I have a lot of faith in children's ability to see when their adults around them are full of it. x are you out there? I'll bet you have something to say on this.
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 13:07:48 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: family impact
Message:
Selene: I agree, children are alot smarter and are more observant than we give them credit for. All we have to do is remember when we were kids and the point becomes clear. I'm pretty sure that you recognized an asshole when you saw one, I know I did. It wasn't until later that I lost my ability to 'discriminate.' I sure would like to know how THAT happened!
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 18:30:40 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: family impact
Message:
I guess I wasn't as discriminating when I was a child...my psychic powers probably weren't developed yet-HA!

Seriously, as a child I did know that there was something wrong with M. I didn't like that dishonest look in his eye and I didn't believe he was who he said he was. My problem was that I DID like the ideas he was presenting. The promises of exploding the peace bomb-'saving everyone on the planet', God in human form alive walking among us, and peace within were tantalizing for a preteen searching for meaning and a place in the world. I even liked the idea of giving up all of one's worldly possessions (what was I thinking?)

The idea that Jesus taught this knowledge was stronger than my own intuitions were.
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Date: Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 17:11:10 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: family impact
Message:
VP: I'll give you that one! The message was very strong and rang all of the 'right' bells in me, too. Everything seemed to fall into place with this bozo. All of the prophesies fulfilled, all of the promises kept, etc, etc. Jeez, I wanted it to be true! I wonder what would have happened if we all had possessed the fine 'discrimination' necessary to realize that we were being hoodwinked by a liar and a total boob. I wonder..... :-)
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Date: Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 21:23:59 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: family impact
Message:
Mike
When you say you wanted it to be true - was it true for you during the time you believed it? And when you realised it was 'not true' then it not only became no longer true, but never true. And therefore, who were you when you believed it was true? Were you false? Who is the creator of the beliefs (and the reality those beliefs 'create' or promote?).
It makes a kind of identity dilemna; though I suspect one moves beyond 'beliefs' and ceases to 'believe', as a way out of this form of 'maya' or whatever.
Certainly these days I trust my feelings more than my mind, but I don't necessarily mean 'emotions'.
I think a lot of stuff people formulate/theorise is slightly irrelevant or non-productive: that is where someone like Maharaji comes in. He can point out the obvious; all this is great, but are you happy? You figured out all this stuff, but are you enjoying your life (short as it is?). That's where 'scientific' thinking alone can leave people vulnerable to such 'leaders' - because it doesn't answer all the questions or needs of human beings.
The sad thing IMO is we are all getting so used to being ripped off in the world of the economic hierarchy.
Perhaps 'common sense' and better education will one day make a come-back, and a more enlightened society prevail.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 10, 1998 at 15:32:52 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Judith
Subject: family impact
Message:
Judith: GOOD QUESTIONS! The problem is that I 'wished' it were true, but it never came to fruition. I had faith, but it was blind, to be sure. I think that 'I' was 'false' (at least with myself) during that time because I would gloss over the obvious incongruities like M's luxuriant lifestyle and the fact that he was really presenting a BAD example to us (e.g he didn't meditate, etc). Even Jesus supposedly practiced what he preached, if that which is written about him is true. M didn't practice anything but greed. I 'hoped' that I was just not 'understanding' M. Well, like all of us here, I came to my senses and realized I was lying to myself if I didn't look at the man and acknowledge the deceipt.

Science isn't the be-all, end-all for everyone. It never claimed to be that. It is simply research and discovery. It is wanting to know how and why things work. I think, in this regard, that it hasn't done badly. The problem is the 'expectations' of the public at large. If anyone thought technology would answer all questions, then I would have to say that this is an unrealistic expectation. Yeah, I know that scientists over the years have led people to 'believe' that, but it ain't so (and we know it). These are guys that are trying to find answers to questions and solutions to today's problems. As a group, they're very interested in what they are doing. I believe they ARE happy.

When I was a kid, I was a very happy person. I didn't need M, or anyone like him, to tell me how to be happy. Somewhere along the line, I got convinced that I wasn't happy and that these people had all of the answers to my unhappiness. Hook, line and sinker, I fell. NOW the tide has turned. If I'm going to be 'happy,' then I think it is time for me to 'make myself happy,' instead of expecting someone to do it for me. It just so happens that digging into a problem in astrophysics makes me VERY happy. Looking into the heavens with a telescope makes me very happy. Hiking and camping with my family makes me very happy. Watching my daughter turning into a good human being makes me VERY, VERY, VERY happy. I guess I'm on my way and guess what? I don't need M or anyone else to tell me anything about happiness. I still have some nagging questions about 'things,' but they are MINE to answer. I've found that no one, absolutely no one else can answer them for ME.

So there it is Judith, in a nutshell. Are you still with me or did I derail you a few paragraphs back? :-)
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Date: Thurs, Sep 10, 1998 at 16:44:50 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: family impact
Message:
Right on, Mike, and I mean that 100% wholeheartedly. I think if we just trusted ourselves and our own natural inclinations, we'd be OK. I don't know how I got into the unhappiness game, myself. Somewhere along the line, I just did. Before then, I just did what felt right or seemed like a fun thing to do. Then, for some reason, I got real deep and serious. That's when M came into my life. I guess he was just what the doctor ordered, at that time. My girlfriend, at the time, who was neither a premie nor had any interest in being one, used to always tell me to give myself a break. If I had been honest with myself, I would have heard her and realized what she was saying, but I didn't. It's really about honesty, I think. If I'm honest with myself about M, he's little more than something to puke up and be rid of. Thanks for the post, Mike. Once again, you hit the nail right on the head.
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Date: Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 09:31:34 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: family impact
Message:
Go Mike! I love it. THAT's real responsibility, not some new age concept that everything that happens to you is because of how you're thinking, nor some premie concept that any problems you have with MJ must be your fault!

I guess we ARE taking responsibility for how we felt around MJ. Not by doing more meditation to get 'out of our minds', but by moving out of range and finding our own ways to be happy. And more than happy, real, involved, whatever. I can understand the camping and the pride in your daughter, can't quite see the astrophysics part of it. But I'm so glad you get off on it.

Love

Diz
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Date: Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 12:18:53 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: J & D
Subject: To Jerry & Diz
Message:
J & D: Yeah, I just got really tired of hanging my hat, so to speak, on someone else's concept of happiness or fulfillment. I'm not 'great' at it yet, but I'm trying and it works! I just sat down one day and took an self-inventory and found out that certain things made me really happy. If I looked at it the 'right' way, all I was searching for was some kind of nebulous 'reward.' SCREW REWARDS! I don't need no stinking reward. Once I completely stop looking for that rediculous reward (whatever it is), I'm sure I will be even happier.

- Is there life after death? I don't REALLY care when it comes right down to it! Every second that I spend on chasing that 'answer' is a second wasted, in my opinion. What I see as my 'life' is enough for me. Just experiencing the beauty of life is enough for me. Whether it be a hike (with all of the attendant problems..he he he), watching my little girl grow, looking into the beautiful eyes of my wife or using my brain (that ACTUALLY WORKS!) doesn't matter. I said this in an earlier post: I get more awe from looking at a snow covered mountain surrounded by a clear sky, than I EVER did from K. I feel more peace from listening to a small waterfall than I EVER experienced from K. If there IS a 'flow,' (another nagging question) I know that I'm closer to following it when I'm enjoying life than I ever was by the practice of K. In fact, K seemed to drag me away from life and into the realm of misery! Never satisfied with what I already had.

- I'm happy with what I have and I think that I SHOULD be! Again, I'm not an expert at it, but it IS working and it 'feels' right, too. I guess it boils down to this: 'I'm not looking for the pie-in-the-sky when I die. I'm not looking for the pie-in-the-sky while I'm alive. I'm going to ENJOY my life while I have it.' If there is 'more,' (and that is a BIG 'if') then I think it will 'reveal' itself without any effort on my part. Why do I believe it wouldn't take any effort on my part? Well, I became ALIVE without any effort on my part, and that is a pretty fantastic thing, wouldn't you agree?
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Date: Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 19:40:50 (EDT)
From: jhughey
Email: jhughey@bigfoot.com
To: Selene
Subject: family impact
Message:
Yeah, the kids wouldn't swallow it and resented the money and attention lost to them. Thanks for your imput.
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Date: Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 16:58:29 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: For Selene: Off-topic
Message:
Selene: I thought your 'chosen' name had a familiar ring. In the language of my Great Grandmother (a Native American), your name means, 'The place in the flower where the pollen rests.' Pretty, eh? Sorry it took me so long to figure it out, but I'm a little slow with my 'second language' sometimes.
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Date: Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 17:42:34 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: For Selene: Off-topic
Message:
Thanks for that info! I started out as Selena, then kind of moved on, (Selena was quite angry and confused back in January)

Katie also said Selene means moon, and another friend said it was the name of the goddess of the moon before Artemis.

:)
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 17:38:17 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: biochemistry and nirvana
Message:
Some athiests I have known have proposed that all of it, the near death tunnel of light , the warmth and love, all of the spiritual recorded experiences are just a matter of certain chemicals firing off as a result of certain stimuli. Which makes me even more in awe of brain chemisty.
I posted in part to express amazement at what my anti-depressant anti-anxiety meds have done to me in the last month. And to reiteriate how much this biochemical adjustment has helped me.

Also, to thank Richard, Judith, Bill, and all of the rest of you who responded to my post in the SELF thread below.
You have all been so very good for me.
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 19:24:56 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: biochemistry and nirvana
Message:
Glad you're feeling better Selene.
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 20:44:37 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Judith
Subject: better than what?
Message:
Yup, definitely feeling better.

but doesn't it make you wonder? All the amazing artistic ventures
that have come from deep depression, if a simple matter of adjusting the brain chenistry could take care of those who are social misfits, well then, would we still have seen those artistic achievements? and does it even matter? Isn't that like the 1984 movie > when they had Soma?
oh well, I guess I shouldn't look a gift horse in the cabeza?,
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 21:11:18 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Selene
Subject: A fishy business
Message:
I saw on AMerican TV tonight that research has shown that eating fish oils greatly reduces depression. The survey shows that people who live in countries where fish is the predominant protein, have a significently less people suffering from depression compared to meat eating cultures.

A striking constast was between Japan and New Zealand. Japanese eat a lot of fish while Kiwis eat a lot of homegrown meat. There are sixty times more incidences of depression per capita in NZ than in Japan.

Scientists have discovered exactly why this is. The fish oils help keep the neuro receptors in good condition, in a nutshell. Omega 3 fish oil capsules have been found to greatly reduce depression in people.
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 22:57:01 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: A fishy business
Message:
I love, love seafood. and this in combo with sea salt (post
from Jerry(?) sea salt contains lithium) , well, I am so psyched to go on my high protein sea food diet, I'll add sea salt!
And do my drugs, since they seem to be helping so much, this is
my new regiment. F#CK satsang service and meditation. I'll take sea salt, fish, and pharmaceuticals. Thanks anyway M.
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 23:03:25 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: lithium
Message:
Sorry Bill,
It was you who told about the sea salt lithium connection. I am easily confused, but...
I'm so happy cause today I found my friends, they're in my head.
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 12:16:46 (EDT)
From: Cheeseman
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Selene
Subject: lithium
Message:
A friend in the head is worth two in Magnitagorsk.
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 23:18:59 (EDT)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: biochemistry and my gramma
Message:
My grandmother went through an experience very similar to yours, in terms of the effects of neuroactive meds, except that hers went from up to down then back up. I was fairly young (ten or twelve) when it happened, so I'm not sure that my recollections are 100% accurate, but here's what I remember:

My grandmother lived alone and was taking medication for what was diagnosed as schizophrenia (practically everything was diagnosed as schizophrenia back then). She had moved out of her house into an apartment; a friend of hers lived in the same apartment complex. After her friend died, she decided to stop taking her medication (didn't tell anyone). She deteriorated until her behavior was really strange and she was put into a psych ward. I didn't see her in this condition, since we lived many states away, but picked up tidbits from my dad who went out to help her. As I recall, she didn't recognize him, and he barely recognized her. Physically she looked the same, but 'she', the person my dad knew, his mother, was NOT there. I seem to recall behaviors such as lots of animal noises and going around with no clothes on.

Anyway, they started her back on the meds, which god knows were even more hit-and-miss back then than they are now, and although it took several weeks or a month, the 'real her' gradually re-emerged, that is, the person who had her personality and remembered her history. She was again exactly how she had been.

This really hit home to me as I got older, in terms of realizing that we are all (in addition to whatever else we may be) bags of biochemicals, and that one screwup in that biochemistry can cause us to become unrecognizable, and that correcting that screwup can bring us back.

Peter

P.S.--Thanks for the answer to my Tom Waits post. Now there's a unique bag of biochemicals. Out of my top five musicians, he was the first to become a favorite. I saw him on Halloween, definitely his element, two years in a row--probably when I was 19 and 20.
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 20:07:13 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: biochemistry and my gramma
Message:
The Big Time music video is him goofing on New Year's Eve.
That video is near and dear to me, it got me through a suicidal holiday season. I kid you not. I was ready to check out. I went to the video store and picked it up cause I just knew he'd be what I needed, strong medicine. He is truly insane in a good way, for me anyway.
That is an amazing story about your gramma. Thanks for telling it. It's scary as well, how delicate the balance is and how little we have to hold on to.
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 11:43:58 (EDT)
From: Jean-Miche
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Horrible NDE!
Message:
What about those HORRIBLE NDE people usually have?

I know some people who had ....
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 12:46:17 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jean-Miche
Subject: Horrible NDE!
Message:
Hi JM
I am not sure if the good or the horrible NDE's are chemically induced or from another source but I am kind of leaning to the fact that they are chemically induced. I suppose the experience of the person could be colored by whatever is most in their psyche, if they have a lot of fear or some trauma they haven't gotten over, I guess it could come out at a time like that.
I remember going through a period right after my divorce when I had really gruesome nightmares most every night. They were always about violence and what bothered me was, more often than not I was the one inflicting the act upon someone else.
then, they just cleared up, just like that. Somehow I think that relates to the awful NDE's but I am not sure how.
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 13:28:57 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Horrible NDE!
Message:
My idea is that the content of these 'NDE' is very close to the dream's content.
There are very likely many factors involved, chemical AND subconscious obviously.
The content obviously means a lot to the dreamer, but doesn't
indicate more than that ...
Dreams are real, as well as imagination ...
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Date: Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 20:42:56 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: thedefector@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The Spiritual Void
Message:
Last night, for the first time in about 8 years, I went to church (give or take 3 weddings and a funeral along the way). I went for two reasons. The first, it was Fathers Day here yesterday (it's Monday morn here at the mo. We're a day ahead of you lot which means for a small foretellers fee, I can predict for you what your next day will be like, ha-ha!) and the old man asked me to go after spending the day with him, and secondly, I went because of the enormous spiritual void that has been left in me since flicking the Big M/K and having my spiritual idealism crushed like a little bug.

So, I went along. The minister was a young charismatic South African whose family had converted from Judaism and who had only been in Oz a couple of years, and it was a communion service as well. I largely knew the routine. From the age of 0 to 16 I had won all the best attendance prizes at church for my age group, which was due partly to my parents own regular attendance, but more to do with the fact that this church was the social focal point for our suburb at that particular time. That is, all the non-Presbyterian cool kids would still come to the Youth Group/Fellowship, 'cause there were a lot of fun activities, and there was nothing much else to do. The attraction was most definitely not the Christian teachings!

Anyway, from the moment the first song started I found myself squirming in my pew, desperate to leave. The songs were all the guilt laden ones I had always had a problem with, the we-are-sinners, JC-died-so-that-we-get-forgiveness etc, etc. Plus the sermon was based on a psalm from Genesis, the one about Sarah getting conceived with Isaac at a really old age, and the 'gift of laughter' that we had been given by God, as Sarah laughs when she hears about the conception. I thought, I know of better Aboriginal/Native American tales/parables that illustrate the 'gift of laughter' than this one. This one seems pretty lame in comparison...although I'm sure that was purely a subjective reaction.

And so I sat there, unmoved, watching the others around me so outwardly joyous and happy, without signs of scepticism, while I felt uncomfortable as all hell. This minister looked so radiant as he spoke about 'love' and yet I found myself thinking 'How can I trust that you are sincere and are really feeling that and that you don't ever carry serious doubts about your faith, and that this is not an act?” I believed Maharaji was so sincere and the epitome of love in all his satsangs, and yet his words have hardly transcended into reality for me and for others.

Despite this, I have great admiration for Christians who embrace the 'essence of JC's teachings', in that they act lovingly, with forgiveness and do lots of charitable things for others (my parents are of this ilk, God bless 'em) and they seem to do more selfless acts for others than I ever saw premies, or myself do (although this notion of Christians doing stuff for the world will always be open to conjecture when you look at the effects in history, but let's not get into that here!). But how can you get to this point, this essence of being a loving/forgiving humanbean without having to be subject to all the controversial baggage that goes with organised religion/cult-life, or via meditation? Can you do it simply by some kind of daily self-affirmation? Or can it only be strengthened by joining a like-minded community/group and where you all actively work towards those goals? Even as I write that, I think how distrustful I now am of even mentioning a like-minded group, but all groups can’t be that bad. After all this website is effectively a little community and it's done me the world of good so far, but maybe that’s because we’re only like-minded in certain ways? Hmmmm.

I guess part of the reason I'm 'lost in the desert' at the mo, is that I no longer have easy access to the indigenous ceremonies I had prior to getting into M & K (moved away and am now in the big bad city) which I'm sure would help alleviate the pain of this void.

So I would appreciate any advice/wisdom etc from you exes on how you dealt with the spiritual void you were left with after cutting out the M & K abscess...

Regards, TD
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 01:14:30 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: TD
Subject: The Spiritual Void
Message:
Dear TD - I don't have any words of wisdom for you, but I just wanted to tell you that I'd experienced the same thing. JW and I call it the 'spiritual rip-off'. I have become very cynical about outward expressions of religious faith since I was a premie. I guess it goes with the territory, but it seems a shame to me. Sorry I can't say anything to help, but at least I know where you are coming from...and you can know that you are not alone in feeling this.

Love from Katie
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 02:02:23 (EDT)
From: kEITH
Email: None
To: T.D
Subject: The Spiritual Void
Message:
T.D , why not read some of the wonderful spiritual literature that abounds if you find the right type for you . Not religious literature . Try reading Sri Aurobindo's ' The Life Divine ', or Ken Casey's ' The third Millenium . '
Or perhaps Jiddu Krishnamurti or Sri Nisargadatta's 'I AM THAT',
priceless stuff . Mirrors to your own soul knowledge .
That's what you need . Mirrors that will awaken the knowledge that is already yours .
The wisdom you seek is all around you . But you need to throw off enough of the past to be able to seek with an open heart .
And remember , YOU are the crucial element . You are really seeking your own SELF. It is your own SELF that will enter the void and fill it . Not your ego . Your SELF .
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 03:30:40 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: The Life on earth
Message:
Hi TD,

I just got in from walking around in the moonlight and the
warm wind blowing across my almost naked body in the high
school recreation fields down the street. A beautiful sky,
incredible air, wide vistas, and I am standing in the middle
of two concentric circles in one of the fields.

I am feeling joy and loving life.
The live version of 'Elizabeth Reed' comes on the radio,
I do a slow dance around the center circle and think- How
does loving life fit into any of the various hand me down
theories on life?

In that moment some say 'the guru is somehow involved'
His mom disagrees.
some say 'yeah but there are levels of attainment and you need
to view life as an obstacle course and you are in this moment
alone.'
I can't just love my life?

some say 'the blood of jesus was a needed sacrifice to get
the god to forgive me of my sins and there is a world of
things to know and do.'
I can't just love this life?

Some say 'there is no life but the life in me and I am the living
god in form and as soon as I 'identify with the divine',
the sooner I realize there is no life to love, just me, in that field,
contemplateing my own extended 'self'.
Can't I just love this life?

Some say 'I am just an emergent property of my dna's need to
reproduce itself and the joy of the moments is just an
accidental deviation from the actual business of life
and once the dna gets a grip on the out of line brain excesses,
that should eliminate the mistaken notions of guilt and
uncertainty and the pesky identity problem and the out of
control need for things like beany babies and all the products
that are causeing pollution and environmental damage to
other dna lifeforms. ect, ect,'
Can I er, ah, love my life?

Some say ' bow to mecca 5 times a day, there is a black rock there and that is the most important rock anywhere.'
There is no greater rock on any of the planets I see in the sky?
Can I love my life?

Some say 'there are lots of ascended beings and saints and
there are buddhas floating and there is lots of folks at the
right and left hand of god (and thier mom's!) and I should
think of all them out there in the field.'
Can I please just love life?

Some say 'You need to have 'personal power' and motivate
yourself to attain your goals and realize your potential and
get self-satisfaction.'
Can I just stand here and love life?

Some say 'You owe it to your neighbors and relatives to be
someone who is somehow able to get thier approval and not
thier free flowing judgement.'
Can I skip the impossible and just love my life?

Some say 'weight loss, muscle gain, lifting, tucking and
clothes and hair style and personal poise will make me
'feel so much better about yourself!'
can I avoid the mirror worship and love my life?

Have a nice week you all.
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 09:05:41 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: bill
Subject: The Life on earth
Message:
Dividing oneself up into different selves is, I think, potentially damaging. Saying that you should destroy your ego for a higher self is old Maharaji talk. Nobody and I repeat, nobody has ever destroyed their ego and become a higher self. Just witness all the people who claim to have done such a thing and you'll see a normal ego lurking there in the background, pretending to be spiritual.

What is the reality? We are just us, with all our faults and fiobles and hopes and dreams. There's nothing wrong with having an ego and we'd be in poor shape without it. We must not and cannot try to erase it. All that happens is that we invent another ego which is a spiritual one.

Sometimes we get high and feel full of love, or something like that. But the truth is, we aren't going to be like that all the time. So why attempt the impossible? I think we can do some things to make ourselves feel better and that is individual to everyone, what we do. Nobody here can lay down a path and say, 'This is the way'. I personally still do some meditation and sometimes it gets me high and sometimes it doesn't. I realise it's not a cure all and my life improved when I WASN'T meditating. Meditation can sometimes make people feel good, but it's like a drug for me and other people have their own opiates. And sometimes meditation is the last thing I want to do. I have other opiates too. And there are other equally powerful methods of self enhancement, that I know of.

I was very disillusioned with God for a long time. Even now, I look at some of the terrible suffering in the world and I think, those people are not going to be interested in hearing about God when they are suffering like that. People in the west forget how lucky they are. They don't have to walk five miles in bare feet over scorched earth to get some dirty water to drink. They don't have to queue for hours to get a loaf of bread that costs them half a week's wages. They don't have to work hard all year to just see their crop fail and starvation stare them in the face. They haven't seen all their family brutally murdered by 'freedom fighters'.

And yet in the west we also suffer, quite terribly. Some people have extraordinarilly difficult lives. There are personal tragedies everywhere and I think it would be sticking our heads in the sand to just pretend that such tragedies never happen. Lose a loved one and what use is talk of Truth or God.

The only way I cope with all of the above is to try to make my bit of the world a better place. There is no obvious solution and we've already been through the 'Lord who has come to save the world' trip. To have been through that and found it to be a lie, is a heavy one to assimulate. But we can recover from it because we are human and humans are amazingly adaptable and resourceful. That may be due to our having out evolved everything else on the planet. But Jim is the expert on that.

Actually, I'm thinking of going to a local church because I want my children to know some other 'nice' children who will be a good influence. I think a little bit of Christianity and brotherhood didn't hurt anyone. And yes, I liked your post, Bill, tremendously.
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 10:09:54 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: The Life on earth
Message:
Sounds like a satsang given by the Big M himself, bill. Of course, he makes a lot more money than you do talking this way and he's not nearly as cohesive. I guess he just had rich parents and a better start than you did. I remember a competing guru once saying about M that he was taking over his father's business. It didn't register at the time. But anyway, it's his talking in this manner that made the deepest impression on me and allowed Big M to hold on to me for as long as he did. Maharaji was good at confirming my own deep convictions, primarily that the best life is going to get is a well enjoyed moment. Right now, as I'm typing this, I'm listening to Madonna's latest album, Ray Of Light. It doesn't have quite the same impact as it did when I first got into it but it still can make the moment count. Music is my great escape. There are other things I enjoy getting into, and you're right, what gets in the way of my enjoying them is all the rule makers telling me that there's important business that needs to be done, prayers that have to be said, confessions that have to be made, weight that has to be lost and, today especially, laundry that has to be done, that will nag me, most definitely, until I do it. Even Maharaji, who's always talking about loving this life is always demanding more effort at it. Very confusing. I think I'm mature enough where I know I've got to mix work with play for survival's sake. But I'm not getting any younger, either. At 45, I'm not planning the conquest of the planet, and my adventures with drugs and alcohol could have very well left me dead, as it has others, so I'm ahead of the game just by still being alive. Now, I'm off to do the laundry. Thanks for your input. It struck the right chord.
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 04:20:13 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The earth
Message:
Hi Jerry,

I thought I was leaving monday but I'm leaving in an hour.

It's that oblique thing again, or bad english.
When I said 'my life' or 'this life' what I meant was -the earth I'm
on, the people I'm with, the things I do, all the stuff right in
front of me.

Whatever maraji is saying involves the 'enjoyment' of kissing
his feet, watching his speeches, paying him money so that
more people can be told he is the master of life and that they
too should recognise that 'enjoyment of life' is doing these
things.
I agree with JM.
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 12:17:53 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: The Life on earth
Message:
bill,
Damn good post.
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 18:49:34 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: The Life on earth:Thanks Bill!
Message:
I copied this to my personal files.
In appreciation, Carol
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Date: Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 13:18:39 (EDT)
From: dvid m
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: The Life on earth:Thanks Bill!
Message:
Hey Bill ......
thanks for the post ive been in northern michigan for about a month..enjoying lake michigan and the sleeping bear sandunes...your post was so cooll to read ..thanks again...hey what about jessica..alman bros band...dave
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 10:49:23 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: The Spiritual Void?
Message:
Hi TD,

I think I had to go through all this myself too, and still have some unresolved questions and feelings about it.

What I understand about this, is that the question is wrong altogether.
I had that question because I was feeling the lack of 'something' when I decided to separated myself from the BM and his picture of 'knowledge' I had inside of me. Like when you loose something you love dearly.
What I understand now is that what I called 'knowledge' is something that took the place of a lot of stuff inside of me, and I guess it varies from individual to individual: father, love, social relationships, etc etc

Now that I've found a lot of these things back, like my real personality, lots of things I renounced to, friendships etc, I don't feel that 'void' so much anymore.
I think it takes time, and therapy is very helpful to recover one's senses and true genuine feelings back.

The BM and his k are VERY deceitful in that sense.
'Knowledge' doesn't exist at all, IMHO.

IT IS A BELIEF THAT IS BUILT DURING THE ASPIRANT PROCESS, AND DURING YOUR INVOLVEMENT IN THE CULT.

I know it's a hard one to swallow .....
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 11:40:37 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Next issue
Message:
Now come the obvious questions:

Do you really want to substitute m's belief system with another one?
Why do you want/need that kind of belief system?
Do you really want to be involved in that kind of stuff?
Now that you've realized that you've been deceived, don't you want to be a bit more careful?
Are you going to be a sitting duck for the most recent new age theory/group/charlatan?
How come that we are (have been) such easy preys for the guru?
If so, can't we do something to find where the problem lies and maybe find other answers, other options? We are not the first one going through this!
etc etc etc
I think all these questions are worth asking.

Now you can also choose NOT asking these questions, keep you focus on your 'void' or lack of something, and god knows where it's going to take you ..... be careful please!
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 13:05:21 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Therapy
Message:
I think it takes time, and therapy is very helpful to recover one's senses and true genuine feelings back.

I find my thoughts are often jumbled as I try to put the pieces of the puzzle together. For this reason, I've considered therapy for some time, just so a trained professional can help me keep my thoughts cohesive and on the right track. I notice that a lot of my thinking is in sync with M's. I shouldn't be surprised by this since it was M whom I've assumed had all the answers for most of my adult life. I'm beginning to wonder just how much of my thinking is my own and how much of it is just a reflection of his. I've always frowned upon therapy, thinking it's basically for whiner's who can afford it and think it's very chique, but lately I've been giving it serious consideration. Hell, why not? It's the only thing I haven't tried yet.
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 17:03:31 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Therapy
Message:
I notice that a lot of my thinking is in sync with M's. I shouldn't be surprised by this since it was M whom I've assumed had all the answers for most of my adult life. I'm beginning to wonder just how much of my thinking is my own and how much of it is just a reflection of his.

HOW CAN YOU SAY YOU KNOW ANYTHING of m's thinking?
What you've heard is nothing of what he really THINKS !
Do you believe any of the testimonies you've read here?

What m thinks has NOTHING to do with the BS theories he's trying to 'teach'!
We've only be BRAINWASHED by his discourses!

You have to find your true self back, and your true self, I mean the REAL one , has NOTHING to do with what the BM makes you hallucinate!

Getting out of the hallucinating mode is nothing easy.
The 'knowledge experience' is an hallucination, I'm sorry.

We have a SERIOUS problem when we've been convinced that what we believed is reality is really NOT!
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 17:28:38 (EDT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Therapy
Message:
Boy, you guys are having some serious problems here! ;o)
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 20:57:38 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Mili
Subject: Therapy
Message:
Mili; I hope you're not mocking people who are having problems. If you don't understand the problems some people are facing then it is not your place to mock.

Jean-Michel; I don't fully understand what you mean when you say that the knowlege experience is an hallucination. Do you mean the knowlege as Maharaji describes it or experiences from meditation in general? In my instance, I never merged into 'Maharaji's world' and had the experience that other people had at programs etc. However, I have experienced something from meditation. Agreed, the experience is off and on for me but there are times when I feel a definite experience from meditation. I wouldn't call that an hallucination. Of course, it's not the constant thing that I can always depend on which Maharaji used to advertise but an experience different to the norm has been felt by me. This experience has not come about through practising the knowledge as Maharaji advises but by doing meditation my own way.

Whether I benefit from this in the long term is a debatable point. Taking drugs alters the consciousness too but doesn't benefit in the long term. Meditation experiences are difficult to pin down and are elusive. I think that trying to engineer one's whole life in order to get meditation experiences is a folly. This is what Maharaji has always preached.

I realised in the eighties that nobody was ever going to get to this magical kingdom of heaven by following Maharaji. Any premie who followed Maharaji through the seventies realised that. He kept telling us we would get to the kingdom of heaven but nobody ever did and in the end, most people stopped listening to him.
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 05:06:43 (EDT)
From: jean-michel
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Therapy
Message:
Hi David!

I don't fully understand what you mean when you say that the
knowlege experience is an hallucination. Do you mean the knowlege
as Maharaji describes it or experiences from meditation in general?


I'm just saying that what m calls 'knowledge' is NOT what you can feel within you, through meditation or any other way.
The core of the problem with m, is that he brainwashes you with his show to the point you don't know anymore what's what!

I call this an hallucination, because the experience you have and you feel is real, is as real as a dream or an hallucination. It has it's own reality. The question is: do we want to dream and live in a dream we call reality ?

If not: we have to de-associate meditation and our inner experiences with m&k.
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 03:17:16 (EDT)
From: jethro
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Therapy
Message:
'Boy, you guys are having some serious problems here! ;o)'

Just some raw honesty which has been buried in the premie cult.
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 07:35:19 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Therapy
Message:
Boy, you guys are having some serious problems here! ;o)

Yeah, but it could be worse. We could still be premies.
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 22:37:38 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: K hallucinations
Message:
The 'knowledge experience' is an hallucination, I'm sorry.

I never had any outrageous experiences with K like I've heard other people speak about, Jean-Michel. I agree with you about their hallucinatory qualities. The best I've ever experienced from K is the constancy of the experience. I find that reassuring, that there is something constant within me that I can always depend on to be there whenever I close my senses to the outside world. This experience was there before I received K. I am not blissed out by the experience. Maharaji has just given me a point of reference to meditate on for re-centering myself, nothing more. It's relaxing. I'm just upset that he would require my life's devotion for such a simple means to centering myself and holding out the promise that there is so much more to these techniques than there actually is. I've read about other techniques in books that have the same effect, one even better, and I find Tai-chi to be much more relaxing than K ever was.

When I talk about M's thinking, I guess you're right. How do I know what his thinking really is? I only know of his stage persona and what he presents with that. The sync that I am talking about is with the thoughts that he presents in that vein. I don't know what his private thoughts are. But on stage he has expressed a philosophy which I found myself never questioning, only attempting to understand and incorporate into my own life. I've often found myself, in discussions, expressing M's opinions on things as if they were the final, absolute truth. Anybody who disagreed with me or argued the point, I would just chalk up as being ignorant because they didn't have K. This has got to stop. M's opinions on matters should be as much subject to my critical analysis as anybody elses. They haven't been until now because I have been regarding him as an enlightened soul, to say the least, who has the inside scoop on everything.
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Date: Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 09:07:36 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: K hallucinations
Message:
Hey Jerry

Maybe a therapist might help, but it strikes me you're already doing a lot of what you say you'd like help to do. You've recognised your MJ conditioning, and you're questionning whether YOU really believe what's coming into your head or out of your mouth. Sounds like a healthy process.

I don't think it's a question necessarily of rejecting everything out of hand. You might decide that you want to keep some bits - can't think what at the moment, but you know what I mean. The idea isn't just to flip to some opposite type of belief. That's still just a reaction to the old conditioning, rather than what you really believe. I know you know that.

Maybe writing down some of the 'conditioned' ideas, your reaction to them, and what you think about that issue now (albeit tentatively, perhaps), might help. Hey, I got that idea from a therapist. But she was a therapist who encouraged people to develop their own resources for dealing with situations/
understanding what was going on. I think that's important. She also helped people to get together to toss ideas around, which I guess is a similar idea to this forum - which, for me, has been the most powerful tool for de-programming myself yet - and I checked out a lot of possibilities, because I started questionning MJ some years before Katie and Brian got this site going, and I was really in a bad way. The beauty of the forum is that it's right on topic. (Plus it's got some brilliant people on it, and a range of viewpoints. And people can be very supportive.) The beauty of a good therapist, or friends who can really understand, is that you can get more personal, probably be more uncertain or silly than I, for one, am prepared to be in public.

Love

Diz
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 23:41:54 (EDT)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Therapy
Message:
Jerry--

Just wanted to let you know that I have found therapy very helpful both in terms of seeing what I'm like and why I'm like that, and in changing to something I'd rather be.

I've also experienced a very wide range in terms of quality of therapy. I've been to more who were worthless than to ones who were worthwhile, so if it doesn't seem good to you when (if) you first try it, try a different one.

I find my thoughts are often jumbled as I try to put the pieces of the puzzle together. For this reason, I've considered therapy
I'm not sure what you mean by 'put the pieces of the puzzle together,' but I don't want to oversell therapy. I think it's very personal, NOT universal. It can't tell you what the meaning of life is, but it can help you figure out what you think or believe about the meaning of life. That's pretty much what Jean-Michel is saying.
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 00:07:31 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Therapy
Message:
I've also experienced a very wide range in terms of quality of therapy. I've been to more who were worthless than to ones who were worthwhile, so if it doesn't seem good to you when (if) you first try it, try a different one.

I do have concerns regarding this. Thanks for your suggestion on how to go about seeking a quality therapist.

It can't tell you what the meaning of life is, but it can help you figure out what you think or believe about the meaning of life.

That's exactly what I would hope therapy is capable of doing.

Thank you for your input, Peter. You've been most helpful.
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 07:29:47 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Making friends with the void
Message:
I gotta tell you, I love this website! You exes are worth your weight in shrink tokens, that's for sure.

Thanks so much, each and everyone of you for your input to this thread. You got me thinking from a different angle, and hence helped me come at my problem from a different angle, which in turn, has helped shift me from that spiritual inertia I was stuck in.

I now know what I have got to do, and that is make friends with this void. I hope that doesn't sound too twee, but I've got to acknowledge it, maybe go and explore it a bit, but definately not see it as something to fill, avoid, escape or what have you. After reading these posts earlier, and letting it sink in, already the void feels like it is dissipating, or it's at least not as suffocating as it was yesterday. Like some of you mentioned, life is about whatever comes your way, be it good or bad, and not the futility of seeking out some illusionary 100% blissful experience - cause it just ain't going to happen.

It's a case of the ole 'everything in moderation' thing, isn't it? If Knowledge had been given to us, without strings attached, without any 'you must do this x hours a day' type regulations, without all the Big M devotion-crap, then we probably wouldn't be so messed up. The whole Big M trip demands that everything in your life be thrown out of balance (just like any kind other kind of addiction), which is not conducive to being a balanced healthy happy human-being.

Thanks again for all your thoughts, and I'll certainly seek out a therapist if it hits me again big time. Just one question, if any of you have seen a therapist, have you seen just a regular one, or one who specialises in 'ex-cult' behaviour?

Regards, TD
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 11:41:44 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Making friends with the void
Message:
make friends with this void. I hope that doesn't sound too twee, but I've got to acknowledge it, maybe go and explore it a bit, but definately not see it as something to fill, avoid, escape or what have you.

'Spirituality' might have been the first thing you stumbled into,
and you used it to fill that 'void' (it's a well known ancient drug in a way - could of course be used to something else).
Maybe you have (like I had) some reasons of your own to feel that
'void' ... And it is very possible that that void will slowly vanish when you'll find what you're (and were - when you got involved) missing! That's why I think therapy is extremely valuable.
That's also a beginning of an answer to your other question.

if any of you have seen a therapist, have you seen just a regular one, or one who specialises in 'ex-cult' behaviour?

I've been in therapy with a regular one, and some people I know here did the same with great results.
I never imagined I had a problem with k when I started therapy, but it became obvious after a while.
When you start thinking and talking about what's important in your life, and if you're honest with yourself (otherwise why would you go to a therapist), as a premie your involvement with m&k is a major issue!
And when you really start thinking about it, and everything that's
related to it - like all the time, energy, friendships & everything you dedicate to it - there is a lot that comes out!
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 16:50:08 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Making friends with the void
Message:
I saw a regular therapist after I was divorced. I had already started separating from the cult but I was still very enmeshed in it. I never mentioned the cult to the therapist because I knew he'd think I was nuts. Besides, I wasn't ready to face alot of the issues that were involved. The therapist sniffed out alot of my delusional thinking, anyway, that had in seeped into other areas of my life (thinking I was superior, not wanting to succeed, thinking magic would solve my problems, etc.).

The hardest part of seeing a therapist, for me, was maintaining the final authority of what I believed. I was very vulnerable at the time and it was hard to not turn the therapist into a guru.
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Date: Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 19:31:19 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Rick and TD
Subject: Making friends with the void
Message:
Hi Rick,
You wrote: The hardest part of seeing a therapist, for me, was maintaining the final authority of what I believed. I was very vulnerable at the time and it was hard to not turn the therapist into a guru.

I agree wholeheartedly, but it took a long time (7+ years of therapy) before I stopped doing it. It's that whole transference-thing, ya know? For a long time, I thought the only way therapy worked was if a guru/devotee relationship was happening. I see someone nowadays just to sort things out once in awhile, but she's never been my guru.

In his book, If you Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him,, Sheldon Kopp talks about exactly this topic and how easy it is for therapists to fall into the trap of believing that they have the answers for their patients. It's got some great therapy stories, too.

Best wishes to you TD,
Love,
eb
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Date: Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 21:39:03 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Making friends with the void
Message:
I made my first therapist into a guru - and ended therapy after I got knowledge (cause I couldn't have two!).
Now I have started seeing someone again and it's a lot more casual but it's actually helping a great deal and I have not transferred onto her.
It's interesting how it works. It is all a process and I guess the transference only happens for a reason if it does, and it's true you can move past that. (Or leave and deal with it later, etc. The door is always open in more than just Maharaji's world).

I just wanted to add this post 'cause I was please to see eb's comments. Identification is so healthy - I must speak up more often as it seems perhaps some kind of communal 'knowledge' is particularly helpful - eg David's thread on Omega 3: i'd heard about that too. I guess it doesn't make something true but it is a kind of accumulated wisdom and we can share each other's findings. Just like sitting round the old campfire, eh? No teacher, just us. I like it.
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Date: Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 09:15:42 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Making friends with the void
Message:
Hi TD - regarding therapists: I have seen several, none of whom were specially knowledgeable about cults. I'm not sure if that's necessary or not. What I've found is really important is to get a good referral to a good therapist. There are some very good therapists, lots of mediocre ones, and some very ineffective ones. (I don't recommend that you see a psychiatrist, btw. They are more like medical doctors and drug prescribers.)

Good luck. I think therapy can really help if you find the right person. It has helped me a lot.

Regards from Katie
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Date: Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 21:43:25 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Making friends with the void
Message:
Katie I wonder why you don't recommend someone see a psychiatrist. I think that is a very big statement to make. In this country, for one thing, one can see a psychiatrist for a very low cost, due to the medical system. In my personal experience I have found them to be much more helpful and more qualified than any other kind of therapist. They prescribe medication when appropriate, just like any other doctor. But they are trained to do therapy, not just give out pills, in Australia anyway.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 10, 1998 at 18:11:06 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Judith
Subject: Psychiatrists - to Judith
Message:
Hi Judith -
I was afraid something like this might happen if I put my opinion of psychiatrists on the forum! I should have qualified my statement, because I don't know what the mental health treatment system in other countries is like.

In the US, it costs almost twice as much per hour to see a psychiatrist than to see any other kind of therapist. Thus the appointments are usually very short: basically, what is called 'med checks' to get prescriptions, check on reactions to medication, change doses, etc. I have met one psychiatrist who I liked very much, but I haven't thought too much of the other ones I've spoken to. I think they just push medication at the expense of talk therapy. (Some of my other therapists have shared this opinion, by the way.) Anyway, I am glad things are different in Australia! I hope TD takes note of this.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 10, 1998 at 19:29:39 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Katie/Judith
Subject: Psychiatrists
Message:
Yeah, I gather there are substantial differences between the way mental health is handled in both our countries. An American friend who stayed with me here once, was appalled to find that anybody could set themselves up as a counsellor/therapist, even if they'd only done a couple of rebirthing workshops! It's slowly changing here, but a number of years ago, you probably would have kept really quiet about seeing anyone, in case people thought you were a total fruitbean, whereas the US appears to have had a socially acceptable 'therapy-culture' for some time.

A friend of mine has a saying on psychologists: 'Psychologists are like English travellers. 9 out of 10 that you meet are complete headcases, and then just when you're about to write them off as a species, along comes 1 brilliant one who makes up for the rest!' I know two psychiatrists, and wouldn't like to judge the rest of the profession on them, as one is a 'mind-fucker', and the other is as neurotic as all hell, but I love her dearly. Actually, as a little ditty here, I went to Amsterdam with her about 10 years ago, and just to be social, we went and smoked a big joint down by one of the canals. Well, it was her first smoke, and my God, if ever you have seen a psychiatrist psycho-analyse themselves as they get further and further stoned, then you will know what I mean. Like drinking and driving, shrinks and joints just DON'T mix!

Anyway, I would only go to either a shrink/therapist who had been recommended to me by someone I trust, as you can waste a lot of time and possibly mess yourself up further if you go to someone who's crap. Thanks everyone for your advice on this thread.

Regards, TD
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Date: Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 08:43:09 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Psychiatrists
Message:
Hi TD

Love the image of your psychiatrist friend getting stoned. She's done you a favour if she's got you treating shrinks, and other therapists, with caution. My experience is that they can be helpful, however basically it's up to me - a good one is a resource which can help me sort through particular issues, but that's about it. For a start, it takes time to get an appointment, and often-times I need to get a handle on something NOW! I write things to myself, pick up the phone and ring someone, send an e-mail, go pull out weeds in the garden, play some music. Even going to work, getting absorbed in the day to day activity and the office banter, helps - very human, very unreligious, and heart-warming as a result.

Mind you, a good therapist can be useful for really letting out feelings: getting really angry, or crying buckets - stuff you wouldn't really want to lay on a friend.

I agree with Bill's post, and with everyone who put in a plug for the wonders of regular life. On that topic, Katie's post at the top of this thread - about how she empathised but didn't have answers - made me smile. Seems to me she's living the answers. Her balance, honesty, compassion, humor - they're the stuff of life, and I love it. Each person here, and each person I meet - well, almost every one - has their own unique, quirky, way of being, and I'm finding I get off on it more every day. Which I'm sure is partly because I'm leaving the rules (a la bill), behind, and just being able to enjoy where I'm at.

I don't know if this is dangerous. Maybe something terrible will happen and then I'll see MJ was right!! Still, I think I might get more support, physical, moral and 'spiritual', from the people I'm hanging out with now, and from general community resources, than from premies whose focus is on service and programs. Let alone from MJ. Meditation? I still think it has its place (as someone who, like Sir David, does feel something from 'going inside'). But I don't want to see it as the only thing that's worthwhile in life. No, 'the world' isn't perfect, but it's got its beauty, if I look out for it.

Thank you TD for your zany humor, your honesty, your insight and your courage. Hang in there, you've got lots going for you.

Love

Diz
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Date: Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 00:11:27 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Psychiatrists - to Judith
Message:
Hi Katie,
I don't know if this is current, but in the past, psychiatrists did Freudian psychoanalysis and 'therapists' (psychologists, MFCC's, or those with Masters degrees) did more emotionally-oriented treatments like Transactional Analysis or Gestalt. I'd agree with you about psychiatrists--although my exposure is limited, all I've ever heard has been arrogant.
Rick
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Date: Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 13:30:58 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Therapists-to Katie
Message:
Have you heard of the short term behavioral therapists? They only see a client two to ten times (fast food of analysis!). They are mainly set up to help people with very specific problems. They do no dwell on someone's past, but they concentrate on the present.

They believe that conventional therapy is good for some things, but that people tend to get 'hooked' laboring over the problems of their past. (Bogged down in the mire). They do believe it is important to examine the past, just not to stay there too long. I wonder if this kind of counseling could work for ex-cult members?
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Date: Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 14:08:59 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Therapists-to VP and Rick
Message:
Hi Veep -
I have heard of short-term therapy. I do think some of the motivation for it is that most HMO's only allow people to have a few therapy sessions. I think it can help some people, but I am not sure how effective it is in general.

I think short-term therapy borrows a lot from Rational-Emotive (or cognitive) therapy. If anyone's interested in this, the best book I've read on it is 'Feeling Good' by David D. Burns. Anyway, most of it is based on changing negative thoughts which lead to negative behaviors. And, as you said, it is present, rather than past, oriented.

Regards from Katie

P.S. To Rick - I am not sure WHAT psychiatrists do these days, except prescribe medication. The ones that I have known (my mom and dad both saw psychiatrists, neither of whom were very effective!) did not do traditional Freudian analysis. I do think you're right in that psychiatrists did formerly tend to embark on lengthy analysis of the person's past, while other therapists did more present-oriented therapy. But now it seems like psychiatrists do more of the medical part of therapy and leave the talk therapy part to psychologists or other therapists.
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Date: Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 13:21:24 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Mr. Natural Meets 'The Kid'
Message:
I finished uploading the latest archive today. It crapped during my first attempt and I lost interest for a while.

I was working on getting THIS online. This was sent in by Katie (yeah, the troublemaking one...) and I enjoyed it so much that I let other stuff slide while I cleaned up the scanned graphics. Enjoy!
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Date: Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 14:16:30 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Mr. Natural Meets 'The Kid'
Message:
Fucking brilliant! Thanks Katie and Brian.
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Date: Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 15:02:45 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Thanks to RT
Message:
It was a cooperative effort, but RT provided the original copy of the comic, so he gets a lot of credit too. Glad you guys liked it - I thought it was great.
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 15:25:31 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks to RT
Message:
Thanks all of you. My husband is going to lose it, I can't wait to show it to him tonight. He loved all those comics and we recently saw Crumb - those guys were weird!
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Date: Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 21:49:09 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Thanks to RT: to Selene
Message:
Did you see a documentary on R. Crumb or did you see him? There was an amazing doco I saw where he went to visit his two brothers and mother (all very dysfunctional). He said he and his wife were leaving the States - he had traded a suitcase of comics for a hide-away cottage in Provence or somewhere. In the film the urban decay of the area he lived in was shown - it gave a horrible picture of life in America. Really shocking. I wonder where that was that he was living. I too found him weird - unusual - hey, one of a kind people are still allowed in our society? Amazing!
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Date: Thurs, Sep 10, 1998 at 00:33:18 (EDT)
From: Crumb
Email: None
To: Judith
Subject: It was the same on I think
Message:
Hi Judith,
It was a documentary, had to be the same one, the real brothers
etc., I think you saw it too. The mother scene and all family scenes were weird indeed.

Amazing that ANY society could handle them, but then, they
didn't see them coming did they?
I always think one of the best things about living in the states is, they don't see some of our
greatest talents til they get published, things move too fast for censorship. ah but isn't that how we got the KID in the first place? such is the price of so called freedom.

Let's hear it for wackyness. Just be prepared to pay the price.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 10, 1998 at 00:37:37 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Crumb
Subject: It was me, last post
Message:
Duh, I guess the same society allows goofy posts to get
to post under the wrong name. anyway, if anyone
else knows about this documentary I'd love to hear about it.

Selene -- wishing I had half their talent and half
their neurosis.
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Date: Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 15:01:48 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Mr. Natural Meets 'The Kid'
Message:
Great stuff. I would have liked a happier ending but I don't think I've ever laughed harder or enjoyed a comic strip more in my life. I've got tears rolling out of my eyes. Thanks a lot.
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Date: Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 15:53:57 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Mr. Natural Meets 'The Kid'
Message:
That's a classic comic from the 70's. It came out just after Millenium I think.
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Date: Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 17:27:03 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Mr. Natural Meets 'The Kid'
Message:
Brilliantissimo! I loved it. How very appropriate! I think I'm going to make photocopies of it to leave with the ex-premie.org cards at the next aspirant event...

Thanks RT,Katie,Brian.
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 01:45:43 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: to TD
Message:
TD - you have got to see the 'Lord of the Universe' video. I think you'll get a chance to view it, but if not, let me know, and we can arrange it. It's definitely an eye-opener for 80's premies!
Regards,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 19:07:57 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Mr. Natural Meets 'The Kid'
Message:
I remember reading it! Wisg I had the original now!
Carol
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Date: Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 18:18:20 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Forgot to say...
Message:
Many kudos to Brian for 'cleaning up' this comic. RT sent me a copy which was a bit hard to decipher because of the aging of the original paper. We scanned it here, but it still appeared dingy and aged. Brian's done a wonderful job of scubbing it up - looks brand new!
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Date: Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 19:59:03 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Forgot to say...
Message:
I already know I love Brian and Katie but now I think I love RT also! Thanks.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 22:19:54 (EDT)
From: Ar T
Email: mmmmmmmm
To: Brian et al
Subject: Mr. Natural Meets 'The Kid'
Message:
Wonderful scan, man! As an ex-fan of the SatMan,
it's evolutionary -and planetary!

Yer welcomes to all. I laughed too, and I gots it memorized.

-RT who has more in store.... Anyone for:
Prachar Dreck-The Ex-Generation?

PS: to Katie, I think I sent you other cartoons?
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 13:19:14 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: You confused (ex-)premies
Message:
finally get to understand everything about knowledge reading the new online chapter of Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, at:

Learn the most secret stuff from Maharaji's master
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 15:04:09 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: More confused than ever...
Message:
JM: I quote from your document,'Astronomy's newest mystery, at present, is the source of quasar energy, which vibrates, and sets up radio waves and resonances in outer space. This has been identified with what had been described in the past by the Indian seers, as 'Prana' - , the vital energy, which sustains the universe.'

- So now I'm 'sustained' by quasars. Interesting.... I'm sure that other Astrophysicists would find this enlightening (no pun intended). By their definition, god is a quasar????? Where, oh where do they get these ideas from? ...snicker...snicker... :-)
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 15:41:30 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: More brain power
Message:
Because people name something a certain way you snicker?

Like detailed stuff. Try Gravitation and Black Holes and Time Warps.

But in the end you still won't have an ultimate answer.
Instead of infinity and the square root of 2, try the 3 body problem (math details leading to Chaos) on for a logical puzzle. That will clarify the matter or energy so to speak!

CD
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 16:02:48 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: No, more education
Message:
CD: I've read 'em, thanks. I snicker not at the 'naming,' I snicker at the false 'identification' of prana with 'quasar energy.' These are physical phenomina that are well identified. This marrying of an old indian concept with a physical thing occurs often and it occurs when the 'thing' has yet to be fully explained by science. Once the thing is explained, the identification (marriage) is dropped. This is just another example. CD, in case you didn't know (e.g. you haven't read my posts with scott), I majored in astrophysics with a minor in computer science. I think I am well qualified to 'snicker at the wedding,' so to speak.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 19:55:17 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: No, more education
Message:
Mike wrote: 'I think I am well qualified to 'snicker at the wedding,' so to speak.'

I always cry at weddings!
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 13:20:34 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Ok, then
Message:
MP: I REALLY hope that you cried at this one...... It was 'destined' for divorce..... he he he.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 20:38:25 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: CD
Subject: pah!!!
Message:
Whenever you're lost for good argument, CD (which I have to admit isn't every ten minutes) you cut your losses and plead infinity.

Infinity, for the benefit of those who feel intimidated by this kind of stuff, is a mathematical concept applicable within the enclosed framework of inductive logic and Maths departments generally, and (literally) nothing to worry about.

I have yet to hear Hawking tell us 'Guru is God' or 'Happiness is everlasting'. Keep us posted on latest developments, CD. We'll try and catch up later.
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Date: Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 16:56:47 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: More confused than ever...
Message:
What's interesting in all these BS theories is that I did believe in them, and that many premies I know have still the same kind of 'new age' explanation for everything they don't know or don't (want to) understand.

Simple explanation for everything, this is part of what makes 'knowledge' so attractive. Having a simple explanation for everything without using your brain and your human feelings is part of the cult.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 20:16:08 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Three birthdays?
Message:
The Divine Light Mission owes its birth and growth to its founder, the late Shri Hans Ji Maharaj whose birthday is celebrated on November 8, 9, and 10 every year under the auspices of the Mission.

Lucky bastard.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 20:39:04 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Test a theory
Message:
The document states that if you are raised Christian, you will be Christian as an adult. If you are raised atheist, you will be atheist as an adult. Anyone volunteer to test this theory?
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 20:47:16 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: VP
Subject: Sorry - crap theory.
Message:
Not just raised a christian, VP, but raised a Baptist . Full immersion job. The whole works.

And still I came back and begged good ol' Lotus Bollocks for his precious secret of life. Am I stupid, or what???? :)
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 20:52:22 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Sorry - crap theory.
Message:
I think you are quite intelligent.

I wasn't really raised with any belief system to speak of. I think my Dad was/is atheist or agnostic. I do believe in God, for now anyway, so this one didn't apply to me either.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 21:04:25 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Sorry - crap theory.
Message:
I think you are quite intelligent.

Come to think of it, you're not so dumb either, Veeps. :-)

Sorry, I get a bit carried away once I'm in ranting mode.
(BTW: Nice to meet you in real time.)

I think most kids rebel against their parents' beliefs. Some come back later, some don't. Do you know that saying 'apples never fall that far from the tree'? Probably true in most cases.

Steve Jones (a geneticist whose books I like, but who is sceptical about the ways genetic theory gets abused), has written that the two most obviously heritable characteristics a child can acquire are 'religious conviction' and 'bank balance'. So maybe Hans was right after all??
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 21:12:58 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: oh, no! NOT the bank balance!!
Message:
Yes, nice to meet you in real time, too. Thanks for the compliment:)

How does Jones think that genetic theory gets abused? (blaming all characteristics of offsprings on genes?)

I sure hope I don't inherit my Dad's bank balance. I'll be paying off HIS bills forever.

VP
has a pathetic social life this Friday night
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 21:31:29 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: genes for this, genes for that
Message:
Basically, whenever you hear on the news that scientists have discovered a gene for x, y, or z, take it with a large pinch of salt.

If x, y, or z is an unmistakable physical characteristic we'll soon know about it if they're wrong. EG: The link between Huntingdon's disease and the gene responsible for it, is irrefutable. On the other hand, if they are talking about a gene for a socially-defined behaviour pattern, as with all the recent blather about 'criminal genes', steer a very wide berth. They're making it up (and trying to get more research funding).

95% of Finns are Lutheran. Doesn't mean there is a gene for it, even if their genes are fairly similar.

If you know Kipling at all, think to yourself: 'Just so story'.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 21:48:15 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: genes for this, genes for that
Message:
I have a feeling the Elephant didn't have his nose stretched by a crocodile. My son believes this with all his heart.

Likewise, my mother-in-law thinks that everyone in her family is an alcoholic due to an 'alcoholic' gene being passed down from each generation to the next. The funniest part of this is that NONE of them are alcoholics. They enjoy a beer or two every now and again.

But she IS a Baptist.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 22:07:09 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: genes for this, genes for that
Message:
Hi Nigel,
My son (and his Dad) have Asperger Syndrome. Do a search on the net to find out more if you want. Autism and Tourette's Syndrome which my son has, too, are currently being researched. There seems to be a strong genetic component. Many of the defining symptoms are 'socially defined'. Such as: failure to sustain eye contact, inability or deficit perceiving or displaying non-verbal communication, 'awkward' stance or walk, somewhat clumsy, tendency to have compulsions or obsessions, dis-inhibition, unusual and intense focus on one or more areas of interest, etc.

Anyway, identifying the genetic nature of certain neurological conditions is very helpful to the people who have them!
Carol
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 22:44:16 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Carol
Subject: genes for this, genes for that
Message:
Hi Carol,

I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever that Autism has a genetic basis - or at least a physiological cause that occurs before birth. (I think in some cases rubella during pregnancy has been suggested, but that wouldn't account for many instances)

The 'concordance rate' between autistic identical twins is almost 100%, and given that the symptoms begin in early infancy there isn't much scope for alternative explanations. My last post was referring to characteristics that are wholly socially-defined. That's why I made the point about Huntingdon's, in the sense that the link goes way beyond reasonable doubt. (maybe that wasn't so clear from the way I phrased it.)

Yes, most of the symptoms of Autism are socially-defined - but not all of them. And socially-defined conditions also point towards physiology whenever you get a 'syndrome' of associated abnormalities that always tend to occur together. (My youngest son has Poland Syndrome - which is how I first came to read up on this stuff.)

All I'm saying, Carol, is I agree with you completely and I hope my last post didn't give the wrong impression.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 23:12:12 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: The man who mistook his
Message:
patients for a literary career. (Only joking)

BTW: have you read Oliver's Sacks' 'The man who mistook his wife for a hat'?

Fascinating stuff. There is a chapter in it on Tourette's Syndrome, mostly about a guy he calls 'Witty Ticky Ray' who was given a drug to control the condition. The drug worked, but Ray didn't like the way it suppressed what he thought was a vital part of himself. He was a jazz drummer at the weekends and he said the Tourette's symptoms used to help his spontaneous improvisations. He needed to be slightly twitchy to syncopate properly so he ended up taking the drug during the week and laying off it when playing with the band.
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Date: Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 16:47:54 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The man who mistook his
Message:
Yes, I loved reading that and another one by him: An Anthropologist on Mars. It has a chapter on a Surgeon with Tourette's. Caelin is definitely unique and somewhere on the spectrum of nuerological differences which include TS and Asperger's and OCD. It would be easier to understand and treat if it were 'just' TS! I'll have to look up Poland Syndrome...if you're not joking! Never heard of it!
Carol
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Date: Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 20:47:36 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Carol
Subject: Poland syndrome
Message:
Hi Carol,

Poland Syndrome is real. Very real, in fact. It is a physical syndrome, though, and not like Tourette's or Asperger's (missing limbs and various other problems involved). I didn't explain what I was saying very well, which is that it was through reading up on Poland Syndrome I came to understand what 'syndrome' means.

In Oliver's (my son's) case, the syndrome is definitely biological, but not genetic. It involved constriction in the womb according to the geneticist we talked to about it, and some books I read.

When I was talking about 'genes for this, genes for that' in this thread, the point I should have made was the importance of non-genetic biological factors in determining childrens' and then adults' behaviour. People often talk about the 'nature/nurture' debate about human behaviour (rather than structure) in terms of genes versus environment, whilst meaning biology versus environment - which tends to muddle the issues, somewhat.

A missing arm is a huge difference physically, but genes had nothing to do with it. This is probably why I am so irritated by evolutionary psychologists who talk about 'criminal genes', 'gay genes', 'schizophrenia genes', 'genes for intelligence' etc., without paying any regard to developmental factors.

We are definitely our biology, but not necessarily our genetic blueprint.

Even Dawkins (one of my heroes) is culpable in this kind of negligence.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 21:39:32 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Whaddya mean?
Message:
VP
has a pathetic social life this Friday night


Are you suggesting that talking genetics with a brit you've never met isn't quite wine, women and song...?
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 21:53:00 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Whaddya mean?
Message:
Are you suggesting that talking genetics with a brit you've never met isn't quite wine, women and song...?

Don't forget literature-Kipling.
It's pretty cool, actually.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 22:09:05 (EDT)
From: bookworm
Email: bookworm@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: bookworm
Subject: can't disagree (nt)
Message:
(nt) :)
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 10:59:10 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Katie Thinks She's Slick
Message:
I thought I'd bring this post to the top. Katie tried to slip it in down below, where it went inactive in just a few hours... very clever.

Hey, we just got home from vacation last night and there were two threads on what we did in California. (I hope it wasn't THAT bad, guys!) It was pretty funny, but somewhat unnerving too. Here's some true facts about what really happened there, as seen thru my subjective filter.

1. Michael (a.k.a. Mickey the Pharisee) is NOT Maharaji. Nor did Maharaji appear, either with or without a limo, during the whole time we were in California, for which I am truly grateful.

2. But, while we were visiting Michael, he did mention that he had volunteered to play Bal Baghwan Ji in the ex-premie movie version of 'The Maharaji Story'.

3. The next night when we were visiting Rick, we were talking about how Bill Burke thought some of the premies who had posted on the site were Maharaji (a.k.a. Rawat). Being in a uncharacteristically frivolous frame of mind induced by Rick's presence, I said something like 'I should post that Mickey is really Maharaji, and really get Bill's goat.' Rick offered to post it for me, but then demurred for fear he might offend Mickey. I, having just met Mickey, knew he wouldn't be offended, so I told Rick to go ahead and post it. However, the rest of the story about Mickey Maharaji (the limo, etc.) is completely Rick's invention. I am not that creative and/or diabolical. I did think it was funny as hell, and I sure hope everyone else thought so too.

4. Incidentally, Michael would be GREAT for the role of Maharaji in the movie version of this site, although he might require quite a bit of makeup and padding. The guy can act...plus he's a good preacher too.

5. The story about the moths getting into the light fixture was suggested by Rick and elaborated on by Rick and my husband.

6. If anyone is going to Northern California, I highly recommend that they take the time to see JW, Michael, and Rick. All are really great people, and have very nice significant others/children/pets. Plus they all like good food and either know how to cook, or how to order a good meal in a restaurant.

7. The squid with spicy salt and pepper is very good, and I recommend that highly as well.


Then I responded:

'Being in a uncharacteristically frivolous frame of mind induced by Rick's' presence...

Oh, I get it... Rick is maharaji. Right, then.

'However, the rest of the story about Mickey Maharaji (the limo, etc.) is completely Rick's invention. I am not that creative and/or diabolical.'

Let me get this right: You invented the major theme of the story but all you did was '...say something like'. I added the props and the window dressing, but I am diabolical. How did you manage to get off so easily?
Rick
-no peace without justice


Then Katie responded to my reponse:

Dear Rick -
I can't get the line about my being 'uncharacteristically frivolous' to paste. However, what I mean by that is that I liked you and that I was in a good mood. Got that, tunahead? I suppose you would have preferred it if I would thrown your vegan dinner in the garbage??

You wrote:
Let me get this right: You invented the major theme of the story but all you did was '...say something like'. I added the props and the window dressing, but I am diabolical. How did you manage to get off so easily?

Gosh Rick, I had no idea that you would dislike being called diabolical. If you want, I'll claim all credit for masterminding the plot, but I didn't think guys liked that kind of stuff...

You also wrote:
no peace without justice

You ain't just a'whistling Dixie there, pal. However, I think the current situation is definitely too minor to apply THAT principle to.

Love from your friend,
Katie


Katie,
I'm just wondering if you could send back that salt shaker you lifted during dinner.
Rick
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 11:20:20 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Katie Thinks She's Slick
Message:
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! I knew you wrote that story, (or at least helped with it) Rick.
Slick or diabolical, both of you are hilarious.
:)
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 12:09:48 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Rick & Katie
Subject: You're both SLICK!
Message:
Rick & Katie: Thanks for the FANTASTIC entertainment. I've heard some well-told whoppers in my day, but this one is one of the VERY BEST! I think we have the 'script writers' for the movie. What do you other ex'e think? I vote Rick & Katie.....

;-)
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 13:13:49 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: To Rick
Message:
Dear Rick -
You asked:
I'm just wondering if you could send back that salt shaker you lifted during dinner.

No way, man. I'm also keeping your autographed copy of 'Be Here Now' that I took when you were in the bathroom. I'm going to enshrine them with the swan faucet we took from Mickey's bathroom, the solid gold dog food dish that we 'borrowed' from JW, and the plastic dinosaur that VP left behind when he was here.

By the way, Mickey, we don't have any of your silverware. I think that must have been taken by one of those priests that's always hanging around your place.

Love,
Katie

P.S. Rick - when are you going to tell everyone the REST of the story? (I might be able to think of stuff, but I sure can't tell it like you can.)
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 20:06:02 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Rick, kate, mick et al..
Subject: I was pretty damn close!
Message:
Anyway, here's my theory:

From what I imagine I know about all of you, Katie would not have have spun this yarn about Mickey without his own consent, which either he gave, or otherwise there was actually all four of you sat together in that restaurant plotting ways to wind-up the rest of us. Or maybe you invented the whole thing later - who knows?

But it was the way you told the story, Rick. I have to admit that for about two seconds, when the fat fraud pulled up and the car window came down, I experienced that old familiar buzz of the first hand darshan story . I guess the poison runs deep, still.

And the moth riddle was almost too perfect. Wonderful.


Thanks again, whoever...
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 05:51:11 (EDT)
From: Pheonix
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Risen from the ashes
Message:
The old Magical Mystery Tour forum is back online. Click on the link below to go there.


Go to Magical Mystery Tour forum


Don't be shy. A new name for this forum has been requested. Any suggestions?
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 18:56:25 (EDT)
From: corvus rosaceus
Email: corvus@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Karma? - NO WAY!
Message:
The rain it raineth on the just
And also on the unjust fella
But mostly on the just, because
The unjust steals the just's umbrella. :-)
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 01:39:11 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: corvus rosaceus
Subject: Karma? - NO WAY!
Message:
The rain falleth on those who ,
did not find shelter , and here's a clue ,
do we not assist in lifes parade ? ,
whether we call it karma or lifes charade .
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 03:16:14 (EDT)
From: VW
Email: None
To: corvus rosaceus
Subject: What Virginia Said
Message:
The fine rain, the gentle rain, poured equally over the mitred and the bareheaded with an impartiality which suggested that the god of rain, if there was a god, was thinking:
Let it not be restricted to the very wise, the very great, but let all breathing kind, the muckers and the chewers, the ignorant, the unhappy, those who toil in the furnace making innumerable copies of the same pot, those who bore red hot minds through contorted letters, and also Mrs. Jones in the alley, share my bounty.

-Virginia Woolf
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 05:07:24 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Those breathing creatures
Subject: Bounty
Message:
And indeed a bounty it is for those who can be baptised in the
gentle rains of spiritus sanctus.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 16:59:31 (EDT)
From: corvus rosaceous
Email: corvus@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Keith
Subject: Instant Karma
Message:
Cosmo, all I meant by this:
Fate is very hit-or-miss
Those who sweat and humbly serve
Rarely get what they deserve
So 'All is well' in Paradise?
Cut the crap and open eyes.
D'you see balance? - show me where.
Tell ya, bud, life isn't fair
'cept for cowboy darshan dealers
fakirs, fakes and psychic healers
Holy joes and guru frauds
Lying lizard living lords
Steal your trust and then abuse it
Never have to face the music.
The Just just don't get just desserts
The Unjust always steal their shirts.

Instant Karma - Where'd you go?
Zap that guru down below
Zap him where it hurts the worst
Rip the lining from his purse
Let him feel humiliation:
All the day-to-day frustration
Dealt to millions round the planet
Far more worthy than this gannet.
See him gorge on others' giving!
(What a way to make a living)
60 million bucks p.a.
Whoever said 'crime doesn't pay'?
Make him own up for his lies,
Grovel, crawl, apologize
Admit he's mortal like the rest
A powerless, parasitic pest
Come on karma, do your stuff!
You're overdue. I've had enough.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 17:04:08 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: corvus rosaceous
Subject: Instant Karma
Message:
CR: Let me here an.... AMEN.... brothers and sisters.

Nigel: Put it to music and it could be OUR anthem! :-)
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 18:46:16 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Curvy Rosy
Subject: Instant Karma
Message:
You're feelings burn like tortured trances ,
images that flow into patterned dances ,

not exactly random in their turnings ,
nor without free will in heartfelt churnings ,

instant karma is hence a mixture ,
not totally free , nor rigid fixture ,

as for fakes , frauds and vermin ,
look not only outward but as well within ,

for lying demons living in dark places ,
often have the most victimised faces ,

ti's of no avail what Rosy thinketh ,
if those thoughts make heart a'sinketh ,

rise above this putrid hate and agony ,
no-one has robbed you of eyes to see ,

no thief has stolen a heart to love and care ,
never did a guru alone cause such despair ,

we are all beings who meet and pass on by ,
playing roles that influence in truth and lie ,

who is to blame in histories charade ?,
are we not all of history made ?

and not only that , but who you blame and call insane ,
may be for me , viewed through another window pane ,

transform past into new visions of hope ,
must be , for survival to denounce hangmans rope ,

wrongs have been done to me many a time ,
but anger must not my soul entwine ,

I have no shame in spirits glory robe ,
nor in messengers who spread knowledge round the globe,

and if the ignorent parts do show too ,
then ti's for us to not confuse the two ,

enough said , for this debate is ancient ,
bless us all and make us patient .
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 18:51:19 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Instant Karma
Message:
I copied yours, too, Keith. An apt response. I like the last two lines especially.
Carol
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 19:12:09 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Instant Karma
Message:
It pleaseth me that you can see ,
both sides and still be free ,
thankyou for aptly saying so ,
wanted to say this ; now I shall go .
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 21:49:15 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Instant Karma
Message:
Sorry, Keith. Corvus gets my vote for best ex-premie rapper.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 14:09:28 (EDT)
From: corvus rosaceus
Email: corvus@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Keith
Subject: K - Rap
Message:
You're feelings burn like tortured trances ,
images that flow into patterned dances ,


What do you know, bud? I'm happy!
I'll still say that the world is crappy
Though - especially for those guys
Who lost their hearts to prem pal's lies

not exactly random in their turnings ,
nor without free will in heartfelt churnings ,

instant karma is hence a mixture ,
not totally free , nor rigid fixture ,


What the fuck was that about?
I'm still trying to work it out.
(Needs more work there on the metre
Have you read the Bhagvad Gita?)

as for fakes , frauds and vermin ,
look not only outward but as well within ,

for lying demons living in dark places ,
often have the most victimised faces ,


Call me those things one more time,
You'll tempt me into heinous crime.
Is this your SELF you speak about?
Be my guest... just leave me out!

ti's of no avail what Rosy thinketh ,
if those thoughts make heart a'sinketh ,

rise above this putrid hate and agony ,
no-one has robbed you of eyes to see ,


My eyes are fine (a bit longsighted)
Hate and pain have them ne'er blighted
I don't need your pity, mate
The pubs are open. I'll be late...

no thief has stolen a heart to love and care ,
never did a guru alone cause such despair ,


Boy you talk some utter shite.
Ever heard of Applewhite?

we are all beings who meet and pass on by ,
playing roles that influence in truth and lie ,

who is to blame in histories charade ?,
are we not all of history made ?


What you trying to say by this?
That we betrayed Him with a kiss?
Blameless as the driven snow:
Good old guru Holy Joe.

and not only that , but who you blame and call insane ,
may be for me , viewed through another window pane ,
transform past into new visions of hope ,
must be , for survival to denounce hangmans rope ,
wrongs have been done to me many a time ,
but anger must not my soul entwine ,
I have no shame in spirits glory robe ,
nor in messengers who spread knowledge round the globe,
and if the ignorent parts do show too ,
then ti's for us to not confuse the two ,
enough said , for this debate is ancient ,
bless us all and make us patient .


Spread the Knowledge! Kill the Mind!
Let's all sing it one more time.
Cosmo, you could win an Emmy
Kidding us you're not a premie.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 14:24:54 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: corvus rosaceus
Subject: K - Rap
Message:
CR: Bravo....bravo....encore, encore (my match is lit).
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 14:53:06 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: corvus rosaceus
Subject: c-pap
Message:
' What do you know, bud? I'm happy!
I'll still say that the world is crappy
Though - especially for those guys
Who lost their hearts to prem pal's lies'

The world is not crappy , the world is fine ,
World or ignorence ? ; one must draw the line ,
Forget Prem Pal , he's not you , rosaceus bud ,
Water is to some what to others is wine .
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 15:58:17 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: c-pap
Message:
Wimp.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 16:04:16 (EDT)
From: corbus rosaceus
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: One more time
Message:
Roses singing, birds in bloom,
Let's hear no more doom and gloom
The sky is out, the sun is blue,
The Guru's in the money too

World ain't crappy. World is fine
Chant that mantra one more time.

No more anger, no more hatred
Never mind the planet's wasted
War and want and ruin and riot?
Go within, it's nice and quiet!

World ain't crappy. World is fine
Chant that mantra one more time.

Acts of god (must be in error)
Acts of man that bring swift terror
Guru promised 'twenty years'
We'd see an end to war and tears

World ain't crappy. World is fine
Chant that mantra one more time.

'MB', you took vicious fury
to new heights; as judge and jury
of some dear sweet people here.
Why'd you do that? Love to hear...

World ain't crappy. World is fine
Chant your mantra one more time.

How do you hope to spread the word
Amongst us doomed and hell-bound horde?
Why not do some meditation?
I prefer man's education.

The sky is out, the sun is blue,
They're smiling down in Malibu
As guru soaks up warm devotion
Sipping cocktails by the ocean.

World ain't crappy. World is fine
Chant that matra one more time.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 16:58:40 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: corbus rosaceus
Subject: One more time
Message:
CR: I BOW to the master..... I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy. :-)
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 15:56:42 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: corvus rosaceus
Subject: K - Rap
Message:
You are just tooooo baaadd, corvus, toooo baadd.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 18:25:07 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: corvus rosaceous
Subject: Instant Karma
Message:
Wow! Your work is wonderful. Thank you.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 18:38:30 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com
To: corvus rosaceous
Subject: Instant Karma
Message:
Hi, I keep wanting to think: curvaceous rose. Do you have another alias here?

I love your creative expression and copied this post to my personal documents! Thanks!
Carol
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 21:43:25 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: corvus rosaceous
Subject: Instant Karma
Message:
Not bad.
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 07:05:40 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: SELF
Message:
Where is the MAGIC ?
Without it , life feels so tragic,
Mindscapes without that magic,
Entropy and die .

Where is the POWER ?
Without it , living is sour,
Wordlings without that power,
Are nothing but a lie .

Where is the GRACE ?
Without it , I have no place,
Moments without that grace,
End always in a sigh .

Poetic words ; but for me pointing towards a very concrete reality. Knowledge is one way among many to reconnect to that
magic , power and grace that is the essense of our true SELVES.
All the ideas about everything fade into some cosmic noise when the true sound of the SELF reverebates . The heart needs to speak through the mind . Or play through a musical instrument .
Again I say , WE ARE ALL DIVINE , but we are so lost in our mental
entanglements that we believe we are what our minds imagine .

Who sees through these eyes ?
Who thinks with this mind ?
Who feels lows and highs ?
It is the SELF you must find .

Who builds this identity ?
Who constructs a prison so ?
Who threw away the key ?
The SELF directs the entire show .

How is one to awaken ?
How to know the SELF again?
How when one feels forsaken ?
SELF is so close : so when ? so when ?
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 09:18:10 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: touch of grey
Message:
Hello Kieth,

What is your favorite hobby?

Do you like some special vacation spot?

What is your favorite show on tv? Don't lie about that.

When you and your wife go out where do you go?

Isn't it more fun with mira bai when she is just her usual
cantankerous changable self than when she is in a lofty
-spirit in a body- mode?

If it was possible for my wife to be constant, that would be
perhaps temporarily a relief, but it ain't gonna happen
and why should I fret?

The design, or whatever, is what it is, and utopia gets better
press than it deserves. We aren't so bad in spite of our
wicked, wacky, (and wonderful,by the way) ways.

When you mention 'self', what part of the various definitions
available are you drawing from and what actually are you
referring to? The slant you give to it can make you a bit
black and white. Either/or. full or empty. joy or bleak.

Shades of grey aren't ok?
If you were the designer of the show, how would you make it?
Put us all on instinct and that's that?
Make us all one in some perceptual way?
Maybe the fragmented mess is more fun.

I live with six other people, 4 kids and one Maryclaire and one
grandma. They only share one trait, they run REAL hot
sometimes and I am the only cool one in the bunch.
(cult repressed behavior probabaly) whatever, they all view
life differently and it varies by the age, food, weather, day of the
week, ect, ect, you know the scene.

Honest to god, (oops, excuse that), what is Mira Bai REALLY
like? You live with her right? what lurks 'beyond' the
loving earth mother spiritual woman?
Not her fault I would say, Not a result of not enough
meditation or surrender to the 'self'.

Give this a fair shot, look around a try to pick someone
who you have heard about that has become the 'self' enough
and see if we can not find that persons grevious defects
or apparent contradictions. Maybe the 'ideal' is not
something that we can even hope to actually have as a
large group manifestation on earth, because ......well,
lets see if you can list someone that we can start with.

Looks like you are off the 1000 character restriction.
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:01:27 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: touch of grey
Message:
Dear Bill,

The description of your home life sounds like mine. Can you believe it: I'm the calm one generally. Well, except for a few panic attacks from time to time.

I grew up in a large family of strong personalities, so this isn't new to me. But all the conflict can be very tiring. As a kid, I was in touch with a different reality. I used to deliver satsang-like speeches about a loving God and 'can't we all just get along?' I thought life was magical; still do marvel at how strange it all is. My kids think I'm very spacey, but I figure everyone's got their perspective, and mine happens to include lots of awe.

Love,
eb
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:12:19 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: touch of gas
Message:
Hello bimbo, oops i mean binky, er, i mean Bambi!

Do you call him 'precious' like that guy in Lord of the Rings
Gollum? He called his ring 'precious' and it was a blessing and a
curse.

You'r kids would think you were 'really cool' if only you weren't
related. How many girls are in your brood?
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:17:56 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: just plain touched
Message:
Ramblin bill,

you make less sense all the time. Get off her case you fuck!
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:48:40 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: just plain touched
Message:
Hey Gerry, thanks for jumping in, but Bill and I go way back.
He knows my secrets.
Heck, you all know my secrets.
I guess that makes them no longer secrets.
I'm just plain touched too.
Love,
eb
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:50:37 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: just plain
Message:
Hi Gerry,
I don't think eb is all that vulnerable.
I think you missed the back and forth she and I have had
and the Bambi/Precious stuff is her code words.
Sometimes I post to her under other names and she knows that.

Don't worry, she will probably laugh at my code back to her.

I'm an eb lover from way back.
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 15:08:25 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: just plain glad
Message:
Bill,

I apologize. I thought you were attacking eb, who I think is a real sweetie. You are a little, er, oblique at times and I have to read your stuff several times before I get the jist of it and even then I'm not so sure I follow you. Sorry about the ''you fuck.'' You seem like a really nice guy .
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 15:33:53 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: plain brown wrapper
Message:
I get accused of mumbleing incoherently sometimes in
day to day life but I usually think I'm not.

I have tried to follow CD and drink beer at music bars but
although the high is kind of like my acid days, if I dare speak,
it better be to someone who has drunk exactly as much and
is also about to throw up because while it will seem like
coherent talk to me, it is embarrasing jibberish.

Just before pukeing, others conversation turns to white
noise and sounds like the adult characters in a charlie brown
cartoon.

No wonder CD's posts are a bit short.
got to run to the bathroom.

Frankly, I have looked at some of my posts in the archives and
I groan. I know I wasn't drinking then, so I can't blame it on
that. But it was a war zone then anyway.
Got to go
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 19:52:37 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: plain brown wrapper
Message:
LOL ! Really Bill , you are one witty guy.
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:44:48 (EDT)
From: bambi
Email: None
To: el presidente
Subject: touch of class
Message:
Dearest Bill,

This is very eerie. You understand me way too well.

Re: the girls. I have two daughters; one living at home and one who moved out this past summer. While they are together, the cat brawls were unbelievable! The one still at home hates her step-father with such passion as I have never known. The energy in my house is never restful. Hence, my desire to hike the John Muir Trail for a few years.

I grew up with 3 sisters, however, and I want to state my own hypothesis regarding the myth circulating about how women tend to cycle together when they live together. Totally untrue in our case. Someone was always going off on the PMS train to hell! Never any peace to be had.

And you, Bill, how many girls?
eb
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 15:08:50 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: bambi
Subject: touched by instructor fingers
Message:
No gals eb,
I got 4 future beasts of burden.
Girls call and come home and ask you out for lunch
and shopping so you have that to look forward to.

The biggest phone day of the year is Mothers day while
fathers day has less calls than a regular work day.

As far as women cycleing together when they live together,
the lesbian capital of the world-Northamptom mass, has a
battered womens shelter...for lesbian couples that fight!
Actually, TWO shelters.
Dykes shouldn't imitate guys all THAT much i suppose.

We just vacationed in Provicetown, a gay mecca, and those
kind of places seem like the least likely place to see a fight.

Except if someone came on to my 17 yr old perhaps.
He is ready to rumble.
I know about that train to hell you mentioned, I had 5 sisters!

I regret that my post got Gerry ticked, but look at that!
Someone came to your defense. Nice to know the guys here
look out for you eb.
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 16:53:04 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: I agree. NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 16:54:44 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: touched by instructor fingers
Message:
I love P-town. I am jealous that you just went there. Sigh.
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 21:58:32 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: bambi
Subject: touch of class
Message:
Dear eb, Bill and all,
I am the middle of 5 girls, explains a lot right there, and I have 2 girls. No wonder I have always had more men than women friends!
It always pisses me off if one of my daughters starts her 'moon cycle' before me.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:39:46 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: For Passing Thru
Message:
Hello PT,
I wrote a couple questions a few threads down but I
retract them.

When you say maharaji said it was 'unfortunate', about the
indian influence, was that recently?
And what was your impression of what he fully
meant.

Where I agree with you on the breath issue,
I don't really see the use or necessity for the ashram.
What kind of severe comments come along with entering
the ashram in india? Move out and you are dead spiritually?
Since you yourself have not made any effort to mention
the part maharaji plays in your inner life, do you think that
there is a actual need for that type of lifestyle?
In india it comes with a lifetime commitment I believe.

Since bal bhagwan has ashrams in India, I would think that
would be enough of a reason for maharaji to NOT do it.

While it seems that wife-allowed affairs (or wife-endured affairs)
are popularly considered 'private business', (I disagree),
Do you see where the behaviour of the religious person
should count?
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 10:16:00 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: ARE you 'Cosmon'?
Message:
Keith,

Sorry, it wasn't clear to me. Were you posting as 'Cosmon'?
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 12:02:24 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Too much self?
Message:
Dear Keith,

I'm sorry you're feeling low. My wife (not a premie nor an ex) feels this way most of the time and her life has become one long analysis of WHY?

Trouble is, this is a vicious circle from which the only escape is to let it go. (The analysis that is). She is on many various types of pills, medications and counselling from a range of 'doctors'. But being treated by 'doctors' seems only to reaffirm to her the fact that she is 'ill'.

I'm not suggesting that you are either 'ill' or 'depressed' but there are similarities with concentrating on what you are dissatisfied with rather than looking ahead to how you would like to be.

I hope you can accept this post in the spirit which it is meant and not take it as a criticism.

Be well.

regards

Richard
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 19:02:30 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Too much self?
Message:
Hi Richard
I can't speak for Keith but I have suffered from chronic depression for most of my life.
It's not as simple as telling yourself positive thoughts or allt he other good things people say to do. For one thing, one can't get UP enough to do this. I tried for about 6 years and just went back on meds about 6 weeks ago and feel better already.
NOW i can work on thoughts and actions and exercise and diet and all that good stuff. I just couldn't before. I believe in my case there is a biochemical problem as well. depression and anxiety are very misunderstood and all too often I hear the equivilant of
'look on the bright side' It doesn't work that way.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 19:25:18 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Too much self? - to Selene
Message:
Selene could I ask how do you find your depression affects your relationship with your partner? Thanks for sharing about it. I think anyone with a recurring, incapacitating condition could relate to this discussion.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 14:14:35 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Judith and Richard
Subject: Too much self? - to Selene
Message:
Hi
Richard I wasn't offended. You are right on about there being the psychical and the psychological side to it. One may very well bring on the other. I remember way way back when I was a young child I was happy. I could spend hours playing alone in the snow drifts and imagining i was the Snow Queen, etc. (I always was the wicked witch in my fantasies) somewhere along the line school and dealing with abuse and people in general took it's toll. maybe I didn't have the right chemicals to cope with it, but I think it would have caused depression and anxiety in anyone. Once it's there, for whatever reason, it can get very serious and intervention, whether by medication and/or good therapy is needed.
Judith, my current husband is understanding. My reaction to severe anxiety and depression is to withdraw, totally. This hurts him but his is kind. We have had to cancel social engagements, etc. because i was too down or too anxious.
Others have not been so understaning. My first husband would get angry and yell at me and worse. No wonder I withdraw!
I am taking Serzone and Clonapin every day right now. I got real bad back in June and July. Things are very improved now, though I do worry about Clonapin being addictive since it's a benzodiazepam (always loved those benzos!)
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 21:59:53 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Depression
Message:
I agree, Selene. When I was 18, I slipped into a deep depression that never really let up until I was in my thirties. I don't know what caused it but I do know there was nothing anybody could do to alleviate it. I don't know if it was a chemical imbalance because I don't suffer from it today. I do suggest that anybody suffering from depression seek medical care. Maybe all that's required for it is simply the right medication. If it is, you could be saving yourself from a lot of unnecessary misery.
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 17:23:57 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Depression - thanks Jerry
Message:
Thanks Jerry.
I hope you see this, it took a while for your msg. to sink into my overloaded brain.
The meds seem to be helping me, that's for sure!
I can get out of bed on the weekends, when I don't have to for work, and shower and brush my teeth!! And maybe even go shopping or talk to badly neglected friends. And they have all been so
forgiving, they seem to know that I would have been there before if I could have.
Thank you for writing that to me. I really appreciate it.
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 00:32:49 (EDT)
From: Peter
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Selene
Subject: Styron's depression
Message:
The author William Styron went through a relatively brief but very deep depression fairly late in life and wrote an interesting book about it called Darkness Visible. His depression started shortly after he quit alcohol after abusing it for forty years (not from conscious effort but because his body rebelled and drinking made him extremely nauseous). He also was strongly convinced that Halcion, a benzodiazepene that he started taking to help him sleep, contributed significantly. He briefly discusses the idea that traumatic loss and incomplete mourning contribute to the development of depression, which I found very interesting. Personally, I believe that any emotion that a person feels but cannot bring themself to face and experience can cause depression--including the emotions involved in mourning.

Styron tried numerous drugs and psychotherapy with no positive effects, almost tried to kill himself, then slowly pulled out of the depression in a psychiatric hospital. He credits the serenity and order imposed on him there. It sounds to me as if he had a severe anxiety problem, and that treating that may have helped the depression.

Anyway, it's a very interesting book, and very short (84 pages). I'm finished with it and would be happy to send it to anyone who wants it.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 00:43:21 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Too much self?
Message:
Hi Selene,

My freind ed used to be depressed and anxious also.
But after about 17 years of therapy he turned his life around.
Now he is anxious and depressed.

Consider takeing vitamins and seasalt.
My neice had good sucess with lithium.
That is something in sea salt.
She was deficient apparently and getting it did wonders
according to her family.

Of course you are female and perhaps you have early
hormonal changes that need pills to substitute.

Of course you could always follow the advice of all the
eastern thinking and just realize your very own godhead/self
and identify with the divine and all that work.

I guess we aren't allowed to just be our regular old selves
and be content with that. Always this greener grass just
around the next realization of our REAL self.

I find that scenerio more depressing than the one Jim likes...
that we are the outer edge limit of intelligence and that human
natures characteristics are completely without any meaning
but purely the survival rule.

I myself am a little too much of a scaredy cat to embrace either
of those. In a world of vast poverty and low standards of
living I am one rich fat cat. (without the fat).
No physical pain, (unlike my wife),
great food, I try to love those I live with in spite of themselves,
beautiful sky, nature, time, the only one I am willing to pound on is
my poor guru and who knows? maybe him, his father, and
his eldest brother will be waiting like a mugging squad at the
pearly gates.

I'm not to worried about that since prem rawat doesn't believe in
any god himself.

But I am a bit leery of dismissing any possibility of life appreciating
a bit of gratitude out of me for my very nice life.

I don't think anything will mind if I steer clear of any views that at
least one person is living off.

How do you like that last sentence?

Sounds good, but I'm not sure I can fully do that.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 01:32:15 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Too much self? to bill
Message:
Hi Bill - I just wanted to say that I did agree with Selene and Jerry on the subject of depression. I have seen medication work wonders with my family and friends - for both depression and other 'psychological disorders'. I wish more had been known about it when I was younger - I probably wouldn't even have become a premie! I don't think it's the answer for everyone, but I am glad we have the medication option now.

I also wanted to say that I hope that you didn't mind me and Rick giving you a hard time about your '____ is Rawat' posts. Your posts are great and we really like them - we just wanted to tease you (I AM from the East Coast after all. Rick is not, but he might as well be...the New Age hasn't rubbed off on him any too well...)

Love,
Katie
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 09:20:36 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: medication - off topic
Message:
>>>I have seen medication work wonders with my family and friends - for both depression and other 'psychological disorders'

Just to chime in here to present an alternative view.

I've seen medication for 'psychological disorders' work horrors in many cases, particularly in more severe cases. I support those for whom the medication works, but IJWTS that for many it doesn't.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 18:06:09 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Bobby
Subject: Bobby- off topic
Message:
Dear Bobby,
What has happend to you! and your email?
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 22:07:59 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Bobby- off topic
Message:
So sorry sweetie, major changes over the past several weeks.
I'm just starting to get stabilized now.
Email on it's way to you.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 10:34:44 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Too much bill
Message:
Hi Katie, welcome back.
I'm mostly out of town also.

I'm still delusional about the 'doc' issue.
Mr Barnum comes to mind.
I did a double take on Ricks post. It was a great story line.
I knew mickey wasn't in the 'doc' catagory, but I wasn't
up to date on all the details of your trip arrangements so
I had to spend a minute with that wild bug in the light
logic. The slim jim, the only slip up was the limo idea.
He has too many fine cars to ride in a crummy limo.

I find I have to read some JW just to get a grip sometimes.
After all my religion investigating, I only mention some of it
here, I get stupified by the vast ___________.

It seems though that most folks just extract some slivers
of whatever thier parents handed them and put it in the
back of thier brains to be used when necessary.
those that think we OWE something to the whatever
enlarge the 'to do' list all the time.
Some want to rule and dominate and politics and business is
beyond them but religion beckons. I met a guy who works at
the princeton theological seminary and he said he thinks it is
harder to work there because of the interpersonal stuff he
thinks is higher (or rougher) there.
Good grief.

Are we going to get a post of your trip?
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Date: Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 13:05:09 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Not enough bill
Message:
Hi Bill,
Regarding our trip - I didn't announce it on the forum beforehand so that's why you didn't know. I don't want to make a long post about it since Rick's already told more than most people ever wanted to know, but here's a short essay on 'My summer vacation'

We were in Northern California for 10 days. We spent one evening with JW and got to see his house and dog, the next evening with Mickey and got to meet his spouse, daughter, and cat, and the next evening with Rick and HIS cat in his mountain hideaway. We camped at Rick's place, which was a lot of fun. All these guys are really great - nicer and even more funny than on the forum, if you can believe it. Plus they all took us around and showed us a lot of neat stuff where they live - things we wouldn't have gotten to see if we had just been travelling alone as usual.

Then we went farther north for ten days: the Mendocino Coast, the redwoods, and the Lost Coast. It was great and I wish I lived there. Quite a shock to come back to the Midwest where both the humidity and temperature are so high as to be unbearable.

What are you doing out of town all the time - I assume this is work related? I miss your posts and so does Peter. I'm glad you thought Rick's post was funny - I did too. (You are right about M and the limo though...I think. But I might not know the difference between a limo and a luxury car. We saw a Rolls Royce in the wine country and I didn't know what it was.)

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 13:05:40 (EDT)
From: VP missing bb's posts
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Not enough bill lately-nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Sep 07, 1998 at 17:30:54 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: thank you too Bill!
Message:
I guess one of the most awful symtoms of depression is not seeing
the glass half full. I hope you see this. I am only now re reading this thread, and seeing all the wondrful, thoughtful responses to me.
Sea salt and lithium! Who would have though! I am goint to buy some, the very next tiem I can go in a store.
I too, don't want to be part of anytning anyone is living off, not in the mode M is anyway. I don't mind helping the economy and spreading it around, etc.. but doors that sink into the walls and floors, just so one doens't have to crank a window gismo to have a better experience of the Malibu Coast? huh!! not me, no more!!
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 05:57:17 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Too much self?
Message:
Dear Selene,

It's not as simple as telling yourself positive thoughts or all the other good things people say to do.

No, of course it's not and I hope that was not the impression that I gave. Depression is a highly debilitating, painful and exhausting illness which few among us could easily cope with.

However, there are, in my experience, two major elements to the illness, each of which may require different types of treatment. The origin, (which may be clinical in nature, such as a chemical deficiency, or the result of an external trauma etc.), and the psychological contribution, which may well result from the suffering experienced.

Differentiating between the two is almost impossible and making any valid measurement of the contribution of each to the whole is totally impossible.

The origin element is the province of qualified psychiatrists, psychologists, neurologists etc.. but the psychological element is more usually dealt with by practicing therapists and/or counsellors in conjunction with the patient themselves. THIS is the element I intended to refer to in my post to Keith and it is here where coping strategies, distraction, positive thinking etc. have their place.

Being ill (from anything) is bad enough but we are all prone to 'secondary' depression if our lives are screwed up, particularly when the world moves as rapidly as it does now, and we feel that we may be left behind. Consider the dragging feet of the child who has been away from school for a fortnight.

Recovering from or dealing with depression is a long and arduous process but the patient will always have to be a participant.

Wishing you well Selene, I hadn't meant to infer that it is all in the mind.

regards

Richard
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 20:45:09 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Too much self?
Message:
Thanks everyone who participated in the discussion.
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Date: Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 16:33:58 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Too much self?
Message:
Richard, I already responded above to this post, but I just
wanted to say thank you, again. You really do understand
depression and I really appreciate that.
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 12:16:18 (EDT)
From: John
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: warning, negative post
Message:
'Where is the MAGIC ?
Without it , life feels so tragic,'

My gawd, is it just me, or does this type of stuff make anyone else nauseous?

Keith, why don't you post this on the premie forum? This is exactly the kind of stuff that belongs there, IMHO.

BTW, I can't believe you really sit around and wonder where the magic is. And if you do, my deepest sympathies.
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 01:10:01 (EDT)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: John
Subject: nausea
Message:
No, John, it's not just you. Pass the dramamine. I just realized, looking at the name, what an appropriate medication it is for nausea caused by too much drama.
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 12:59:43 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Trust
Message:
Keith: Why does there have to be 'magic?' Why is life tragic, without it?

- Life is life. It is, at its very least, a collection of molecules and atoms that somehow come together to form a being that is 'attracted' to, and wishes to communicate with, other life 'forms.' Isn't that magic, enough? The simple fact that we want to know how it happened is 'magic.' The fact that the answers that we have are of a 'physical' nature, doesn't negate the 'magic.' You speak as if this so-called magic is something that has to be revealed. It does not. Personally, I find that the more science tells me about how it works, the more 'magic' it becomes.

- Do we need a maharaji to tell us this? I THINK NOT! Scientists, and others, do this without asking for anything from us. Think about it, they are revealing the 'secrets of the universe' to us, for absolutely nothing. Well, ok, they need money for research, but sure as hell, they don't ask us for 'devotion.'

- Keith, never mind 'who' is looking thru your eyeballs. USE the eyeballs while you have them. USE your mind, while you still have it. Enjoy the fact that you possess these tools. Again, no meditation or revelation required here. It's just simple fact; but it IS very special. Among all of the stars that we can see, we appear to be the only planet, as yet, to have life on it. Why not enjoy that life, as it is? The fact that YOU CAN THINK is pretty phenominal, isn't it? Why not 'get-off' on that, instead of chasing a 'dream?'

- YOU aren't forsaken! I'm talking to you, aren't I? You are not the only bag-o-molecules around, you know. So why do you 'feel' alone? Why are you so enthralled with your SELF? To put it another way, why are you so SELF-ish?
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Date: Wed, Sep 02, 1998 at 14:34:52 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: SELF
Message:
'Where is the MAGIC?'

It's all around you, Keith. Just because M isn't magical, doesn't mean that events in life aren't. Call it magic or call it science and logic, the world is an amazing place. I hope you find a way to see that.

'Where is the GRACE?
without it I have no place.'

I think most people here have probably felt this at one time or another after discovering that Maharaji is a phoney. I don't think you are alone in this. You do deserve to be happy in this world. I also hope you find a way to see this.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 01:30:27 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: responding
Message:
I am so sorry . My poems were not describing some phase I
am passing through . They were a way of bringing attention to a
a few issues that mean a lot to me.
Firstly , I was describing a type of meloncholy mood that sometimes occurs when I forget Knowledge ; or at least , when I
forget to re-connect to that feeling of core-SELF that I was
alluding to .
It is true that I felt a little of that mood when I typed those poems , but in the very act of remembering and turning within my
mood changed ; and therefore the poems were not intended to be
depressive .
As I've tried to make clear at other times , I do not regard
change or even constant change as pathological .
The SELF I refer to is not the ego-self . This I realise is a contentious issue . Many who post here believe the SELF I refer to is a figment of my new age imagination . So be it .
Some would have me try to prove the existence of this 'universal'
SELF ; but alas , I cannot .
I agree with whoever it was above who said that my poems were better posted on the other forum . Well , events are underfoot that will hopefully create a new forum . Not an anti-Maharaji
forum , not a pro-Maharaji forum , neither a place where those who hold extreme (fundamentalist-type) views will be welcome .
But a forum where divergent views can be expressed and shared ,
without anyone feeling put upon or ridiculed .
B.T.W ; Jim , Cosmon was not me , but was someone I know who was posting in sympathy to me . It was not Mirabai either .

The SELF I speak of is not of mind ,
nor created from biology ,
this SELF is the source , that if you find ,
suddenly SELF becomes cosmology ;

The SELF I speak of is not of earth ,
nor a figment of psychology ,
an omni-present Consciousness that is our hearth ,
an experience of divinity .
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 11:08:56 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: responding
Message:
Keith,

You have a really important message for the world. There's no doubt about that. So, why don't you get your punctuation up to speed for a mission as great as yours? I'm talking about giving up that irritating habit of placing extra spaces before puncutation marks. I'm not sure if it's your universal self thta's doing this or one of the other ones but you guys should have a meeting and figure it out and just tell the guy to stop. Only then will your destiny be fulfilled.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 14:07:01 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: my punctuation
Message:
No-one has expressed such annoyance with my faulty punctuation
as you Jim . Now , lay down comfortably on that couch , breath deeply , and tell me when this obsession with other peoples
punctuation began . The first therapy session will be free .
In regards to my mission ; do you not shed tears that but for my poor punctuation (grammer and style) I would surely be the true saviour the world is waiting for .
Never mind ; my Universal SELF will inform all those wayward
personalities of mine that all is well in paradise .
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 16:45:46 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: You just failed, bud
Message:
Keith,

The punctuation thing was just a test. I'm not really that annoyed by it. It's just that it's clearly wrong -- you don't put extra spaces before periods and commas -- and, for some reason you and your 'friend' Cosmon are the only people I know who do this. No, I just wanted to see how thick and stubborn you were. I think I've got the answer now. Thanks.

Keith, you remind me of someone trying to wash dishes with a dirty rag. You know, the guy just ends up semaring the dirt around. None of your thoughts are clear, as far as I can tell. It's all murky and, too bad for you, you don't understand that life doesn't have to be that way.

By the way, I don't think you'll ever change. It's gotten to the point where you think your food probably tastes best that way. Oh well.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 18:33:12 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: SELF
Message:
Dear Keith:

What happened to you? I thought you were an ex-premie. Have you converted back to Guru Maharaj Ji again?

He is a fake, and you know it.

What are you holding on to?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 19:38:47 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: SELF
Message:
Gail , I have ventured far and wide and tried to look at
things from many angles . No I am not converted back to MR M .
I do not wish to be a convert of anything except my own shifting visions and the truth as I experience it .
I never was a premie ; after all , for god sake , I was
connected to other teachers too and even practiced many other techniques as well as knowledge ; all against the rules !
But I am not an ex-premie either . I do acknowledge and value Maharaji as something more than the demon he is portrayed as by some on this forum . And Gail , what really is a premie anyway ? Do premies have different colour blood to ex-premies ?
And if it is a mind set ; then where is the line between a premie and a non-premie or an ex-premie to be drawn?
Or shall we just follow the trend and place people into little boxes to save us from some serious thinking and some hard questions ?
In the same way I would ask , exactly what is an ex-premie ?
Do ex-premies have attributes that I sorely am without ?
Do they have special markings on their butts ?
Do you understand Gail , what I'm trying to say here ?
Labels are for clothes , not people .
History is full of people using stereotypes to create a fixed illusory line between us and them . The jews are this , the blacks are this , the commies are that .
I refuse to accept these stereotypes as anything more than
examples of tunnel vision or hatred personified .
People are wonderfully more complex than such simplistic lables would try to infer .
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 20:52:50 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Cliched goof
Message:
Keith,

You're writing with a really dull pencil, there, aren't you? You mean to say you don't know what a premie is? Honestly, Keith? Honestly?

But you do know what a cosmic, universal self is right? Honestly, Keith? Honestly?

You don't know shit, bud. Honestly.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 20:52:51 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Cliched goof
Message:
Keith,

You're writing with a really dull pencil, there, aren't you? You mean to say you don't know what a premie is? Honestly, Keith? Honestly?

But you do know what a cosmic, universal self is right? Honestly, Keith? Honestly?

You don't know shit, bud. Honestly.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 03, 1998 at 21:39:54 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Cliched goof
Message:
It's taken me a while to work this one out ; but I've finally realised (bless my little soul) that responding to Jim is a waste of time and energy .
So , let this post be a kind if 'bye bud , I wish I could say it's been fun . Although I'll admit it's had it's moments ;
not many , but a few .'
So Jim (bless your little soul)please let us finalise our divorce once and for all .
Genug ist genug !
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 01:23:49 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Cliched goof
Message:
I don't know Kieth, Jim is a resource that comes standard
with this forum and without him this place would have always
been at least 50% a satsang hall.

Others have thier complaints about him but what do you think
his point is to you?
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 03:22:57 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Who cares ?
Message:
To be honest Bill , I really don't care about what his point is
to me .
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 11:09:06 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Who cares ???
Message:
I think Jim is primarily a fanatic for intellectual honesty.
(although he does make allowances for dawkins penchant
for assumption where science doesn't fill in the gap)

Now that might sound like I have found even one sentence
where you are not sincere. I haven't, but I do not have Jim's
discerning eye. I have watched people post things that I
could not comment on because I didn't have the eyes to see
the logic flaw. And then Jim would post and peel it apart
and damned if I could tell him where he was wrong.

The only gripe I could make (and I did once or twice early on),
was that he gets ferocious. And I had to give him that
because he almost always will come on to the person easy at
first.

I wasn't going to go on about this at all but when you wrote
'who cares?', I think a majority do care about his thinking.

Not me of course, I posted under Mili's name a few times just
so I could call him names.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 11:27:33 (EDT)
From: Curmudgeon
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Here's another Who cares ???
Message:
Mili
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 15:04:27 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Curmudgeon
Subject: Here's another Who cares ???
Message:
Thanks for the link to this wonderful site .
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Date: Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 22:46:25 (EDT)
From: Gerry the terrible
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Who cares ???
Message:
bill,

You are riotously funny! I'm so sorry I jumped on you when I thought you were being shitty to Selene. I should have known better! I do now. Thanks for all the laughs!
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 14:47:46 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Who cares ?
Message:
Keith: You are as intolerant of Jim's ideas as he appears to be of yours. Dodging questions is not 'tolerance,' it's insulting. Answering questions with questions isn't answering questions, it's dodging. 'Cosmic generalities' and poems do not qualify as specifics, when specifics are asked for. Communications is a two way street. If you don't think someone is understanding YOU then it is YOUR responsibility to try to fix it, not theirs. So, let's start with intellectual honesty and go from there. You know, Keith, it is ok to say, 'I don't know...I'm not sure,' in response to a question concerning your belief system. It's ok to change your mind and it's ok to have strong opinions. BUT when you do/say any of those things please SAY you do, don't hide behind poetry and 'cosmic nonsense.' I think you'll find that intellectual dishonesty causes more apparent 'conflicts' on this forum than anything else. Does this help or do you not 'care' about me, either?
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 13:11:44 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: SELF
Message:
I agree-you're right. The only really disconcerting part of the whole thing for me was believing MJ was the Lord and his words were my commands. I wish no one believed that anymore.

For a second, I thought you were still buying all the MJ stuff.
Some of what he says is true. Things such as 'What a nice sky today.' The rest of what he says is BS. He doesn't know anything more than we do--except of course how to never leave doubt in his mind that he deserves his god-like existence.

I want to develop that philosophy for myself. I believe that I deserve the most and the best of everything this world has to offer. The trick is really believing it.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 22:24:55 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: SELF made god
Message:
Hi Gail, you asked about how was marolyn disabled.

She had a brain anyerism.
Or two, and reactions to medications.
She is still under the effects as you can read as we have
a letter from her in the archives.

In addition to her status she has to call her husband 'master'
and put up with his long running affairs with his prostitute
slut monica lewis and the valet situation.

You might want to get all the best of whatever quickly as
we are headed for more limiting times financially.

We got waylaid by a fake lord during the greatest
period of wealth ever in history.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 22:42:27 (EDT)
From: Gerry (curmudgeon)
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: SELF made god
Message:
You might want to get all the best of whatever quickly as
we are headed for more limiting times financially.


Bill,

I think you are correct here. Been feeling the pinch myself for over a year. The commodity markets are usually the leading indicators of economic health. Not many people realize this.
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Date: Fri, Sep 04, 1998 at 23:31:25 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Gerry (curmudgeon)
Subject: Economic change
Message:
I'm sorry you've lost money Gerry. Please don't take it personally if I express my opinion here.

Making money on the economic markets doesn't happen in a vacuum. People in societies other than America (and people in America itself) are impacted by Wall Street success, often in very deleterious ways.

This is part of the reason why I don't have any interest in making money in the stock market.

I don't want to see anyone hurt, but it is clear to me that a lot of people in America will be hurt when the market crashes. Some may have been hurt through recent developments. I'm talking about the good, honest people that have put in their life savings. Many in other parts of the world are hurting now and have been hurting resulting from America's economic party.

I remember some politicians saying back in the eighties during some kind of economic slump or recession that the party was over and we 'all had to bear our share of the cleanup.' Bullshit. Lots of us never went to that 'party'. Some of us deliberately chose not to.

We are all interconnected. Economics is one facet of interconnectedness. We don't hear about that on the news nor is it taught in schools.
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Date: Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 11:00:05 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Economic spare change
Message:
Hi Bobby,
You mentioned crash.
I don't know if Gerry thinks we are in for a crash or not,

y2k may give us something like that for a brief time but there is at least 32 trillion in the hands of the big boys and they
are quite determined to keep an actual crash from occuring.

severe recession, well, we get those, some deflation, we got some
of that stuff now, Always there are people with almost nothing
(ashram residents!) The haitians are naked in the hill communities! Pretty close to here I'd say.

But I got a freind who works with the aid group there and the
people in the hills -he says- are actually happy and sing as a
group often. So when you say you don't want to see people hurt
by less money, I agree, but why arent they happy now in the midst
of plenty?

What do you think is the key to happiness?
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Date: Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 13:36:33 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: glyng@techline.com
To: bill
Subject: I have a dream...
Message:
Well, not as earth shaking as Dr. King's, but one of my goals when I started trading in commodities was to establish a separate account from my profits which would be the basis for a ''Banco de Confidencia.'' I believe this concept started in India in the seventies with loans of small amounts of money (100$) at no or low interest for the purpose of establishing a small business enterprise.

This concept has spread to other countries funded by various groups and individuals. I was inspired by an article on a former baseball player for the Texas Rangers, whose first name I believe is Mark (I tried contacting the Rangers for his name and where I could contact him, to no avail) This will be a self sustaining source of loan capitol for small loans. I chose Honduras as my ''client'' country, partly because it is the poorest of Latin American countries and also I can speak a little Spanish.

I was doing very well and ready to spin off the new account when the currency and economic woes hit the Far East. This dried up demand for American products that I was trading (wheat, corn, the soybean complex and the meats.) The lack of demand and the high value of the dollar versus other currencies brought prices sharply lower and I lost most of my account.

I still own two corn contracts which are deeply in the hole but at least I've managed to hold on to them and prices have turned around slightly in the last couple of days. Maybe we've seen the bottom, I don't know.

My method for trading is a conservative one based on the law of supply and demand. It is a fundamentally safe and profitable method for trading commodities, which is usually considered highly risky.

I learned this method from an older gentleman who has traded this way for over thirty years without a losing year until this one. This is the worst he's ever seen by far, he said a couple of weeks ago. He has a total of almost fifty years experience in the commodity markets.

I'm working on a website dedicated to this trading method (there are a few commercial sites out there already) and my plan for a ''Banco de Confidencia.'' If anyone is interested, they can e-mail me.
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Date: Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 13:55:44 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I might add...
Message:
lest anyone thinks this is the tinkering of a rich kid born with a silver spoon...

I got my seed money for trading by mortgaging my house, which was an old wreck I fixed up and refinanced for the increased equity produced by my labor and improvements.

I was fortunate in buying this house in that my dad gave me five thousand dollars and I was able to put together an owner financing, and loan assumption deal which did not require bank financing.
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Date: Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 14:50:09 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: I might add...
Message:
I'm glad you added what you did, Gerry. I don't really know much about the stock market outside of what I learned from the movie Wall Street. As far as I'm concerned, the character portrayed by Michael Douglas and others like him can jump out a window for all I care. But you seem to be just one of so many that are trading just to keep a little ahead of the game. I'm sorry things aren't working out for you.

I work for a labor union called UNITE which is the Union of Needletrade Industries and Textile Employees. We got slammed during the Reagan-Bush administration and quite honestly, Clinton hasn't really done anything to insure our survival, either. The main problem is that manufacturers are closing down their factories here in the states where people were making decent salaries with decent health benefits, and re-locating them in third world countries where their workers are often working under slave conditions. So, whenever I hear about American troubles in the global market, I don't feel much pity. Fom what I know, America's investment in the third world is basically an exploitation of it.

These businesses that you invest in, in Honduras, how are their workers treated? Do you know? Are they doing jobs that were formally done by American workers? If so, what happened to those workers? Did they once have decent paying jobs and are now flipping burgers at the local McDonalds? These are tough questions but there's a lot of this going on in our country today. It's shameful. I know you would never be, consciously, a contributing factor to this sorrow, but I wonder how many decent individuals like yourself are, unwittingly, just that.
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Date: Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 15:10:29 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I might add...
Message:
Jerry,

First, commodities trading is completely different than stock market investing. Night and Day. It's a long story and I hope to explain it all on my forth coming website. However, there is tons of info readily available on the web now. I can point you some directions if you're interested. Also I have written a brief about it and could email it to you.

These businesses that you invest in, in Honduras, how are their workers treated? Do you know? Are they doing jobs that were formally done by American workers? If so, what happened to those workers? Did they once have decent paying jobs and are now flipping burgers at the local McDonalds?

Bancos de Confidencia is a generic term. I would actually be setting up a small Honduran company (I have relatives there) sustained by trading profits which would lend individuals small amounts of money to start their own small businesses. This allows individuals access to start up capitol they may otherwise never have. We're talking the poorest of the poor here, many whom have never had ANY job before other than pick up labor on farms.

They actually have to pay the loans back from the profits of their cottage industries like everyone else. The default rate on these loans is very small and these people are able (hopefully) to create jobs for themselves through their own efforts in small business. And we're talking really small, here. Like a food stand or a service type business they can start. There is no corporate involvement at all.

Please realize that this is not my idea, other people have done this before, so a model exists already to emulate. It is still in the dream/planning stage and will have to wait until things get a little rosier, financially, which I'm sure they will.
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Date: Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 16:49:14 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: I might add...
Message:
Gerry, can you keep me posted? This is very interesting and in line with what I have been doing with my life recently.
Katie has my email address.
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Date: Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 18:28:38 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Selene and katie
Subject: I might add...
Message:
Sure Selene, I'd be glad to keep you posted. I'm assuming that you mean the 'Bancos' aspect rather than the commodities trading (which is merely the vehicle to support the bank.) I could be wrong, but either way I'll keep you posted.

Katie,

Sounds like you had a great trip! Could you send me Selene's email address? I'd like to send here some stuff. (Loved your little scam, btw, but sorry, I smelled a rat right away. My ''sacred'' intuition, I guess.)
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Date: Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 00:10:03 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: I might add...
Message:
Don't jump out that window! You're one of the good guys. Thanks for your offer about educating me on commodities. It's tempting. I can actually see myself getting caught up in it and speculating, investing, and losing a fortune and then becoming a curmudgeon cursing out people on the forum... Nah. I wouldn't do that. I don't know anybody like that. Do you know anybody like that, Gerry? :)
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Date: Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 18:00:13 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I might add...
Message:
Hi Jerry - I am not a rich kid either, but I also have money in the stock market. I was lucky enough to inherit some money because my dad died at age 58 (I probably would have gotten nothing if he had died later!). I put this money in the stock market on the advice of my mom, who became a certified financial planner at age 50, after being a housewife since age 25 (I think you would like her, even though she's a CFP). Plus my husband's IRA and retirement fund are partially invested in the stock market. We started working at 'real' jobs (with retirement, etc.) at a relatively late age, and we feel that we must save as much money for retirement as possible, since we started so late.

Generally, investment advisors tell you to have some money invested in emerging/foreign markets. However, after reading an article in Harper's magazine last year about the exploitation of people in Asia, I changed my stock accounts to US-based mutual funds.

I really appreciate what you said about the clothing trades in other countries. I do think people there are exploited, and I know that employers often relocate there so they won't have to pay a decent wage. I try to consider this when I make purchases. There is a really good song by the band 'Sweet Honey in the Rock' about this issue. I heard it in concert so I don't know the name, but it's about buying a blouse at Sears that was made in Honduras by a woman who was making slave wages. The last line is 'Are my hands clean?'. It's a great song, and really made ME think. My hand aren't clean yet, but I'm working on it.

Regards,
Katie
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Date: Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 23:51:42 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I might add...
Message:
I don't think your hands are dirty, Katie. I just think we live in a dirty world. I have no qualms about decent people who care about doing the right thing trying to make life easier for themselves. Good luck with your investments.
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Date: Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 16:57:19 (EDT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: I have a dream...
Message:
The news yesterday said that boats are stuck in docks at Astoria and other OR and WA harbors full of Tuna that no one will buy because of the glut on the market, largely due to an increase in fishing and sales, especially by the Asians hurting for profits. You can go buy fresh Whole Tuna for $1.00 a pound. I was thinking, why doesn't the Gov't buy it and distribute it to hungry people or give vouchers to buy it or something. They subsidize the tobacco and beef industries and others. But it is probably too much to expect that bureaucracies could come up with practical and timely solutions for problems like this!
Carol
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Date: Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 18:49:45 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: I have a dream...
Message:
Hi Carol,

Too bad there wasn't some private organization in place which could buy some of this tuna and distribute it...maybe there is. Even individuals could do this. The food banks should be stuffing there freezers with this fish. Maybe they don't know about. I always prefer private responses to situations over government answers.
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 13:00:45 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: I have a dream...
Message:
I have most of my stock investments in technical stocks. So far they have been doing ok considering how poorly everything else seems to be faring. I know this good fortune is not going to last forever.

I might be interested in the commodities thing, so if you ever email me, feel free to send info on that as well. I have some friends in Malasia and Russia, so maybe something there would be practical for me?
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Date: Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 16:00:06 (EDT)
From: bobby
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Economic spare change
Message:
>>but why arent they happy now in the midst of plenty?

'cause money really doesn't do it.

>>>What do you think is the key to happiness?

spirit, levity, letting go
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Date: Tues, Sep 08, 1998 at 04:41:38 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bobby
Subject: Economic spare change
Message:
Nice answer Bobby, have a good week.
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