Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 24 | |
From: Sep 14, 1998 |
To: Oct 1, 1998 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 06:00:35 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Catholic Church is a cult Message: according to an old friend. When we were together he checked out MJ twice for a few months each time. He ended up attacking Anne Johnson and Chuck ? at a public program in Toronto. He stood up and announced that this was a cult. However, he had a real fetish for the Catholic way of life. We called a truce. I didn't have MJ pictures and he took his pictures of the pope down. After a few more dreadful love affairs, he got really religious. He started going to 07:00 mass every weekday before work. The parish priests noticed and began coercing him to check out the priesthood. After a few months of hanging out with these boys, he realized that what he really needed was psychotherapy--not god. I had a great time talking to him last night. I'm still ticked that he didn't try to wake me up. I could have saved 13 years. We could recognize that each other's cult trip but not our own. I guess the Cardinals are starting to think about a new pope. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 12:27:24 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: anyone Subject: I guess I'm really desparate Message: for company. Imagine looking up old boyfriends from a decade ago just to have someone familiar to talk to. Needless to say--I haven't seen any of the premies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 13:34:44 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Gail Subject: I guess I'm really desparate Message: Gail, I think it's called 'picking up the pieces.' You gotta start somewhere. I think it's rather admirable for you to be reaching out again for some 'real' human contact. Right on, girl! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 17:41:43 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: mc@hamzen.demon.co.uk To: Gail Subject: I guess I'm really desparate Message: I know it's worthless and not what you need right now, but a BIG hug for you. I'd be more than happy to swap e-mails if you want to. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 20:03:13 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Gail Subject: I guess I'm really desparate Message: Gail I think its really great what you did (and clever - seems you picked the right person to talk with). At the moment I am living in a garden flat belonging to a premie. Guess what, this flat was partly built by her ex, who I went to school with 25 years ago (a tiny, independent school - 30 in our whole year). What's more, he used to be a premie but is no longer. And have I called him to have a chat? No way - too scared. But I long to pick up a lot of pieces in my life - when will I get the courage to locate and call old friends? (I'm the idiot who never went to the high school reunion.) So I admire what you did. Gail there is more to my 'lost life' than 4-5 years involvement with Maharaji. If you would like to exchange some e-mails about 'starting over' I also would enjoy a more private exchange about this. I must say, I've had some good tips from people here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 20:42:26 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Gail Subject: Picking up the pieces Message: Dear Gail - I really liked Gerry's image of 'picking up the pieces'. I have had to do that twice in my life: once after my time with M (which was much shorter than yours), and once after a long-term enmeshed relationship that didn't end well. I found it most helpful in both cases to try and connect with the person who I'd been BEFORE I got involved with M, and involved in the relationship. I think calling up your old boyfriend is very positive - it's really helped me to call old friends (or boyfriends) who I've known since 'before', listen to music that I liked 'before', and do things that I liked 'before'. All have helped me piece a sense of MY OWN identity back together. I hope you are all right, Gail. Your posts today have been great - thanks! You certainly have retained quite a sense of humor and irony, and I appreciate it. Love from Katie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 21:15:08 (EDT)
From: On Ron's Behalf Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Giving Credit Where It's Due Message: Laugh at a couple of spelling errors and ignore content? Sorry to bust your bubbles, but Ron didn't write that other post, I did. And proud to do it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 21:23:22 (EDT)
From: It's OK, Ron... Email: None To: On Ron's Behalf Subject: We still love you. nt Message: wheeeeeeee Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 21:23:29 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: On Ron's Behalf Subject: We are not worthy Message: At the risk of repeating myself -'Not to save your souls, but good ol' fashion care.' Care to elucidate on the difference? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 21:24:36 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: On Ron's Behalf Subject: Giving Credit Where It's Due Message: I'll accept that you're not Ron. Too bad you can't use your real name but I guess you've got your reasons. Anyway, either you know nothing about the dumb cult Ron's in and you're just stumping for your bud or you do and you're an idiot. If the former, what would you like to know? If the latter, too bad for you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 21:53:45 (EDT)
From: Sister Mary Elephant Email: None To: On Ron's Behalf Subject: Giving Credit Where It's Due Message: I too, being a Sister of Mercy, am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Please tell me, how long have you known Ron? Does he speak to you about his experience in the uh, religious club? What does he think about Jesus? He sounds like a very nice boy and brave, too. I still shiver when I think of him chasing off that seven foot giant knife wielding would-be rapist! The Lord must have truly been with him. Maybe that Ron really does have something going for him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 22:17:15 (EDT)
From: On Behalf of Ron Email: None To: Sister Mary Elephant Subject: Giving Credit Where It's Due Message: Thanks. After watching Ron get into all this last night I'm happy to see there's some real insight here. It's 'obvious' he didn't write that post. He would of spoke of his association with Maharaj Ji, not himself. He knows I'm of another 'religion' /I can play too guys/and respects that so he really doesn't speak to much about all this. I've known him for almost five years since he moved to this community. He told me the story of the attack though. He was walking through the woods and heard screams. He saw a teen age girl get her dress riped off as she was being punched in the face. Ron ran in on the scene and caused the attacker to stop. Thanks for the nice words, he really is one of the good guys. Got to go feed my kids. See ya Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 23:07:55 (EDT)
From: On Behalf of Ron Email: None To: Sister Mary Elephant Subject: Giving Credit Where It's Due Message: My daughter mentioned Christmas at the dinner table and it dawned on me that you asked me about Jesus. I can tell he loves him very much. His family goes all out at Christmas time yet he's always reminding us to not forget what the holiday is really all about. Thanks for the support and the good words about Ron. Have to go do dishes. Bye Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 03:14:20 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: None To: ORB Subject: Listen Orb... Message: May I call you Orb? I think what you need to understand about this forum is that the debates that appear here are not about the moral character of its contributors; whether they keep their language clean or chase rapists out of sherwod forest - and just because somebody happens to have a heart of gold and is a fine, upstanding pillar of the community it isn't worth a handful of beans around here if that person chooses to speak out on behalf of Guru Maharaj Ji without confronting any of the difficult questions that arise from adopting that stance. The way I see it, if you are a member of any organisation, and speak up on behalf of that organisation, you should be prepared to either defend the words and actions of your leader, or if you don't feel comfortable in any way with your leader's behaviour, then speak out clearly against it. For example, many Catholics feel the Pope's position on contraception is outdated and immoral given third-world poverty and overpopulation and will say so clearly. I asked Ron a dozen or so such questions (See my post 'Before you go...') Ron, however, when faced with difficult questions about his 'living perfect master' will simply shrug them off. Ron may pose as laughing boy without a care in the world (though Larkin seems to have popped that bubble, since Ron's reply makes him look like a humourless idiot) and having NO DOUBTS about his guru's divinity, but his contributions here are largely 'passive aggressive'. Failing to engage with the people you are talking to will inevitably lead to some pretty sharp remarks which, to the casual observer - such as 'Impressed with Ron' - may make it look like the guy is receiving more hostility than he deserves. But back to those questions: I spent some time writing that post and I was sincerely interested in what the answers my be. Most of the questions could be answered one way the other in very few words. Ron, however, made fleeting references to a couple of them in his 'goodbye' post, but didn't answer those he referred to, he ignored the really difficult ones completely before saying that to find the answers, you must 'go within'. He knows, I know (and, I suspect, you know) that whatever does happen when you sit under a blanket, questions do not get answered. Perhaps Ron feels that they do. Irrelevent. This forum is not a meditation blanket, and part of its function is calling Maharaj Ji to account. Anyone posting here in defence of their cult leader should be prepared for the consequences and not cry 'foul' when they get flamed for their evasions. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 13:25:06 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: On Ron's Behalf Subject: Giving Credit Where It's Due Message: Sorry orb, it doesn't wash. He resfused to answe a SINGLE question except with the 'go within' answer. So, I'll give YOU my answer about 'going within': I've been there (within) and my take is that there is NOTHING there except me. No maharaji, no peace, no whatever. SO, after following Ron's advice (for 11 years), my take is that it is BULL! M is a liar and anyone who defends him is a liar because they have only experienced their own IMAGINATIONS (KNOW IT!) and don't own up to that FACT! SO there, Ron (or whoever you are), I've done as you asked already, how about YOU answer our questions with honest answers! Start with Jim's, if you like: DO YOU THINK M IS GOD? Yes or no, that's all you have to accomplish... Just spell 'yes' or 'no' on your keyboard. YES OR NO! All we want to know, for now, is 'yes' or 'no.' - Before you get bent out of shape: Remember that you asked me a couple of questions like, 'did you receive K, when, etc.' I GAVE YOU the answers in a straight-forward manner. I didn't say, 'guess,' I didn't say 'look within to find the answers,' I didn't say ask M for his divine answer. I GAVE YOU the answer to your question. SO do us a favor and return the favor, huh? THAT, my friend, IS RESPECT! All that you (Ron) have shown is disrespect by evading simple questions presented to YOU in a simple manner. So pat yourself on the back for lying about 'respect for us,' along with all of your good deeds! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 12:59:06 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Ron & Orb Subject: I'm waiting..... Message: Ron & Orb: I didn't think you would have the guts to nail yourself down and tell us that you think M is god (or not).... And you wonder why you have such a hard time here. If you can't even answer a simple yes/no question with yes/no, then you can't possibly KNOW anything about your own beliefs, much less 'reality.' IMAGINATION, IMAGINATION, IMAGINATION! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 13:26:46 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Mike Subject: I'm waiting..... Message: That's really funny! I don't have any difficulty to admit I've been believing, totally convinced, nobody would have proved me otherwise, that the BM was God Himself, for 25 years almost. And so many of my friends did, and still do! It is such a strong experience, why not admit it? Shame? The Sahi Baba followers admit it, they're proud of it, like so many followers in so many cults. How yes .... this is NOT a cult! What makes the difference between premies and other followers? Never thought about it? The BM must be a very lame teacher and illusionist, too corrupted, why ? why ? That is reality! Anybody has an idea? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 14:01:02 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Don't hold your breath... Message: JM: EXACTLY! You said it, exactly. I believed M was god, too. I have no fear of saying that, at all. I certainly had no fear of saying it then, either. Why is it that current premies will not admit it? I don't care who 'I' thought he was (I already KNOW what I thought), so Ron exhorting us to look 'inside' wasn't the proper response to a question addressed to him, anyway. I want to know who RON thinks M is. Once we have a baseline, we can discuss and I'm sure that this is what Jim wanted, too. I'm also sure that Jim wanted to see if a premie would give an 'honest' answer to THE central question of M's divinity. But no, we get some premie-speak, around the corner, down-the-block, don't-try-to-nail-me-down, deniably meaningless generalities. Maybe it's true: those that have had the MOST years trying to reconcile/justify/rationalize M's actions have twisted their minds so badly that they don't even understand what a question is, much less how to answer one. Maybe lying to yourself for that long actually has a deleterious (physical?) effect on your overall ability to reason. I'm probably stretching it here, but I really wonder..... It's certainly a question that's worth asking and thinking about. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 20:31:34 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: I'm waiting..... Message: Dear JM: You probably helped to spread this condition of amnesia to the premies (just kidding). The instructors came to town and gave us new instructions: 1. Don't tell new folks he is the Lord. People were supposed to realize that for themselves. 2. Don't talk to anyone about your experiences concerning K & MJ. 3. Stop hanging out with premies. Make new friends and spread the K. No chit-chat with each other. 4. Do not discuss the new K techniques with premies who didn't make it to the program. Let them go see him themselves and he will show them. (Do you remember when he said something to the effect of, 'When you get home, premies who didn't come will ask, 'What did he say?' If I were a premie, I would want to go and hear what he said for myself.' On and on it goes. Ron knows MJ is the Lord, but he can't tell anyone. MJ doesn't want anyone getting any preconceived ideas. MJ has said not to and he still wants to please MJ. Remember--'It's okay if your boss gets mad at you (right--cause you skipped out of work for the fiftieth time), but don't get the big boss mad at you. You might do the biggest thing, you know and MJ will forgive you. Then, you might do the smallest thing and MJ will never forgive you.' Or how about this one: Don't call MJ's land (Amaroo) 'the land' because people might think it belongs to MJ. Call it the Ivory Rock Convention Centre. Ron is not even free to tell the world that 'Our Lord is here.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Sep 29, 1998 at 03:37:00 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Gail Subject: I'm waiting.....Can't believe! Message: I can't believ what you just wrote! I'm trying to have my mind working in the 'premie mode' (not that easy anymore ... IT IS SUCH A FRUSTRATING FORCED BEHAVIOR !!!! Not being able to share your feelings, talking about your life, I mean what are these premies going to tell their friends? These instructors obviously don't have any (beside EV freaks)! Poor fellows .... I've had a conversation with an ex friend the other day: there are very few solutions for these poor fellows to live with this 1/ getting more and more involved in EV, and having nothing to do with the world (except for making some money) - like I did for decades. 2/ getting involved in another new age spiritual whatever, and keeping M on their altar (this is what my friend does in order not to become crazy) 3/ freeking out all the time - being some sort of 'fringe premie' - smoking some dope to cope with this (many still do) 4/ leaving Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Sep 29, 1998 at 11:22:03 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: I'm waiting.....Can't believe! Message: I'll take the leaving, but if we could only take the leaving as easy as the meeting, we could turn the pages and would not have to cry. Geez, for all the work we, supposedly did on ourselves re detachment, we are not very detached. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 01, 1998 at 14:22:29 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Gail Subject: Detachment Message: Gail: I'm not sure about the specifics of your 'spiritual' history. Given what I believed at the time of meeting M, I should have known better, especially in the 'detachment' department. When devotional songs such as 'focus on the form of satguru' came out, I should have heard the alarm-bells going off. You don't/can't become 'detached' while 'attaching' yourself to a 'form.' At least not according to any ancient spiritual text on the subject that I've ever read (quite a few). I can't even remember how I rationalized this one away, either. Man, removing 'tentacles' is a REAL job, isn't it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 01, 1998 at 22:27:53 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Mike Subject: Detachment Message: Ya, no kidding. I tell you, it's like having a long-term case of syphillis. The penicillin is going to take a while. It will work eventually, though. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 20:27:27 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Keith's credibility Message: Keith hadn't posted anything here for a while so I thought I'd just let it go. Sure, he continued his stupid ramblings on the other two forums but, well, who cares? Then he showed up here again and I asked him if he was telling the truth before when he denied being Cosmon (remember? Another idiot about as thick as Keith. Same dumb style, same jellied brain. Keith had denied being him but did say that Cosmon was a 'good friend' of his). So I asked Keith. I asked him here and then I asked him again over on the sissy forum. Too bad Gerry removed my question and Keith's response there. I'm now pretty sure that Keith was lying all along. That is, I'm sure Keith was in fact Cosmon and didn't have the guts to admit it. So, again, Keith came on with an alternative name rooted to the same inferior brain. Now, if you really wnat to see something funny, check out his ridiculous thought process over on MMT on the 'Maharaji' thread he started. The guy's retarded. By the way, I, for one, will post whatever I want from and about whatever I read there or on the premie site. Here, watch: Keith's 'Thought' Process 'It is not M's grace . That is a misunderstanding . I have heard Maharaji himself knock that idea on the head . Maharaji is a conduit or a catalyst . Again it comes down to understanding who Guru Maharaji really is . I think that Maharaji really did help to confuse people back then . Why ? Partly because he was not a great communicator . He knew what he felt but his ways of communicating especially to the West I feel , fell short . But , for those who thought more deeply or understood more penetratingly his words were nevertheless better related to .Now this sounds like I'm saying that Maharaji never said anything stupid or inaccurate . Perhaps it sounds like I'm saying that although Maharaji's communication skills were not up to scratch the main problem was that premies were too stupid to understand what he meant . Well that's not entirely true . I think that if someone has deficiencies (as we all do surely to some extent) in communicating exactly what you want , then a part of the responsibility for mis-leading others should be accepted too . And if we realise that our very beliefs undergo change then we should also accept responsibility for the influences that our beliefs had on others back then when we believed differently to now . But , this is really all part of human growth and change . It's the way it is . I cannot carry the guilt of a million yesterdays on my shoulders . If so , we may as well all drown together in mutual recriminations . Like some christians saying that they live in perpetual sin .' Too much, huh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 21:02:09 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: tsk,tsk Message: By the way, I, for one, will post whatever I want from and about whatever I read there or on the premie site. Here, watch: I love a rebel!!!! From Keith's mind: Maharaji is a conduit or a catalyst . Again it comes down to understanding who Guru Maharaji really is I strongly disagree with this line of thinking. It implies that BM is something special, a teacher or legitimate authority and that his ''knowledge'' is real. I don't think so, Keith. This is the main flaw in your thinking, IMO. The rest of the stuff about taking responsibilty for misleading people if you find out you were wrong in your previous statements is only common decency. Don't expect anything of the sort out of BM. . And if we realise that our very beliefs undergo change then we should also accept responsibility for the influences that our beliefs had on others back then when we believed differently to now . But , this is really all part of human growth and change . It's the way it is . I cannot carry the guilt of a million yesterdays on my shoulders . If so , we may as well all drown together in mutual recriminations . Like some christians saying that they live in perpetual sin .' I can't ague with the above, when applying it to ordinary people who are not putting themselves forward as the savior of mankind. But Keith, you still have that terrible blind spot about BM, in my opinion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 08:24:46 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jim Subject: Keith's credibility Message: Unfortunately, 'Cosmon' did grab the wheel of Keith's Happy Bus-load of personalities. Mr. Simon, being a person who highly prizes honesty in others, is now on a prolonged haitus (hate-us?). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 10:42:57 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Brian Subject: worthless piece of shit Message: To think that Keith would come back on here under a false name after the shit he went through before doing that! If any of you weren't around, Keith masqueraded as some absolutely atrocious personalities. Yes, Simon was one (I can't recall the other). The one thing all his masks share in common is that the eyes are dul and unfocused and the tongue hangs out (a bit, not a lot). He was detected and begged forgiveness and understanding. Now, knowing that Cosmon was another of his tricks, and remembering that he didn't have the guts or integrity to admit it, I'd say that Keith is a perfect example of the benefits of so-called spirituality. Lies and self-deceit make one a liar. All his talk is the talk of one who cares nothing for truth and has no honour. Over on the sissy site, Keith is pontificating with shit like this: To be expanded or not to be expanded (just be) . That is the question . Interesting . I shall ponder these two posts . Are not the words we use and the way we use them an interesting study in themselves ? Boy, is it ever a good thing Gerry started MMT! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 19:45:55 (EDT)
From: On Ron's Behalf Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Everyone Makes Mistakes Message: I was with Ron Sherwood last night when you people where posting. You might want to slow down. Not only are you all mistaken about him personally, he at no time was ever even close to temper. In fact he was almost laughing. He felt since the other guy wrote such an awful story about Maharaji, using questionable language, that callng him a punk in return, wouldn't even phase you flamers. Boy was he wrong. Touchie, aren't we boys. I was happy to see that at least one other person was impressed. Let me tell ya a bit about the lad. Not only has he had an amazing music career, that has every potential to give the world some fine rock & roll: He takes part in his community where he lives and truely makes a difference. One example is the singing and guitar playing he performs for the childrens' ward at local hospitals. His reputation is of a person who can be depended on who is a man of good character and heart. Before you try to figure what my relidion is, let me inform you that I don't frequent either of these sites. All I can say is what ever a 'cultist' is: It's not Ron Sherwood. People is this community are prividged that he's here. We hope he doesn't move back to Malibu. I don't know what he's experiencing. But if a man like Ron says it's real, then it can't be an imagination. You seem to need to attack. Everyone makes mistakes. For your own good, maybe we all need to consider ourselves a little more before attacking others. Sometimes the olbvious fact is so simpe it's overlooked. His only reason for joining in briefly, was because he cared. Not to save your souls, but good ol' fashion care. The only mistake he made, as I see it, was even trying in this case. And this site should be ashamed of itself for the language I see on it. If you had any self respect, you clean it up. He nor I will ever join you again. One mistake is enough. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 19:59:57 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: On Ron's Behalf Subject: Gimme a break, RON! (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 20:06:44 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: On Ron's Behalf Subject: Everyone Makes Mistakes Message: 'Not to save your souls, but good ol' fashion care.' Care to elucidate on the difference? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 20:19:44 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: On Ron's Behalf Subject: Everyone Makes Mistakes Message: Every once in a while I read something that makes me laugh out loud. This post certainly did that. Thanks for the belly laugh, Ron. You made my day. Are you related to the legendary and elusive Cosmon by any chance? Some highlights for me: Sometimes the olbvious fact is so simpe it's overlooked. Ha Ha Ha! Before you try to figure what my relidion is, let me inform you that I don't frequent either of these sites. Huh??? And my favorite: And this site should be ashamed of itself for the language I see on it. Yes, mother, sorry. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 20:30:51 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Impressed Subject: Still proud of your boy? Message: How 'bout it, Imp? Still think Ron's got a shred of credibility, respect or even common courtesy left? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 21:31:01 (EDT)
From: Impressed Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Still proud of your boy? Message: I agree with his friend, and yes I'm still impressed. As I said before this negitivity is not helping me. Think I'll surf some sex sites. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 22:03:33 (EDT)
From: Sister Mary Elephant Email: None To: Impressed Subject: Oh my! Message: I agree with his friend, and yes I'm still impressed. As I said before this negitivity is not helping me. Think I'll surf some sex sites. Excuse me for being pedantic, dear, but it's spelled negativity. And why not try saying a few decades of the Rosary instead of visiting those nasty sites, dear. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 22:32:44 (EDT)
From: Impressed Email: None To: Sister Mary Elephant Subject: Oh my! Message: Wow, everyone is really into this spelling thing! Oh well, I guess it's better then hating. And the sex thought was just a joke. You're right about the Rosary. It's time to get impressed with myself and say goodbye. Somehow Ron did help me though. He's got a good heart. That's what I felt. Bless you Sister. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 13:29:47 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Impressed Subject: Oh my! Message: boy, some people think that being 'nice' is all powerful and is ok to mask anything. More -lets play pretend- Lets pretend that the posts to ron were not really an undeserved assist to a long term cult member. Lets pretend that ron read the posts and actually heard what was being said. Lets pretend that -impressed- is deserving of any respect at all when he clearly is too embarassed to use his name. Lets pretend that Mike and Nigel and others were not crystal clear and a hand reaching out to a deluded man with little integrity who bleated out his programming with deaf ears. Lets pretend that we cant guess who impressed is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 13:42:07 (EDT)
From: fan-o-bill Email: None To: bill Subject: I have some guesses... Message: about who impressed is, but I don't want to be the first to go. Who do you think it is, bill? gerry Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 00:43:08 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: fandango Subject: I have some guesses... Message: I'm like you, I think outing is one of Jim's jobs. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 14:41:15 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Waldorf schools Message: I want to add some links to interesting info about Waldorf. Does anyone remember that this was the cool way to educate a premie child? http://www.dandugan.com/waldorf/ http://www.dandugan.com/waldorf/articles/Separation_of_Guru.html http://rainforest.parentsplace.com/dialog/get/waldorfschools.html Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 14:54:00 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: g's mom Subject: Waldorf schools Message: I haven't checked out the links yet but one of my friends in Olympia sent his kid to a Waldorf school. The expense in time, head space, and money finally became too much. The local public school was literally just down the street. It was a tremendous relief for them when the boy switched. My friend says he's replacing the old bumper sticker on his car which read 'Waldorf: Education from the Inside Out' to Waldorf: Yes it is a Cult' That says it all, I guess. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 14:59:54 (EDT)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Waldorf schools Message: LOL LOL LOL!!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 15:08:19 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: G's mom Subject: Waldorf schools Message: Too bad about the Waldorf schools as they have appeared to play out in practice *in some places*. I've also heard good things. My local public school is none too swift, though better than other area public schools I know about. I always appreciated Waldorf attention to individual creativity. My daughter went to one for one year, kindergarten. Later she was fortunate to go to a special Philadelphia alternative school in the neighborhood. Unfortunately my son has had some difficult school experiences. Our Pennsylvania governor in my opinion has a 'Neanderthal' dependence on grilling of the 'three R's'. Shit. Doesn't speak to my 16 year-old son's individuality and sensitivity. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 15:16:36 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Did you see it as a cult? Message: I am just curious. I really do not know more than what I have read at this site and on a BB. But I think ex premies can spot a cult faster than you can say Amway. I read about these things called 'Nature Tables' that were like altars in each room. They had pictures of them they really did look like little altars. Also Steiner was apparently rascist and anti semitic. Also they apparently teach really weird pseudo science kind of new age stuff. I thought it was fascinating. I am sure there are good parts too, but what I have been reading certainly gets the cult antennae going. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 15:24:15 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: all Subject: some examples Message: http://www.dandugan.com/waldorf/articles/Weird_Science.html Trouble began when Dugan picked up one of Steiner's books, on sale at the school. Steiner lectured (Germany, 1922): 'If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will become increasingly dense if men do not arrive at a form of intelligence that is independent of blondness.' How could apparently intelligent and sensitive people be publishing this stuff in the 1980's? They would have to be wearing the blinders of cult indoctrination. Then his son complained 'they're teaching us baby science.' A specialist science teacher had told the sixth grade 'the elements are earth, air, fire, and water.' Dugan looked at several science lesson books, and found more bad news. 'Planetary influences' were said to affect the growth of plants. In physiology, the body was said to be made up of 'the nerve-sense system, the metabolic-muscular system, and the rhythmic system.' Worse than the occasional items of cult pseudoscience was what was left out. The science curriculum was based entirely on observation, and the theories which form the backbone of scientific knowledge were almost completely omitted. The children were not to be 'prejudiced' by 'materialistic dogma,' but were to make up their own minds about how the world worked from direct observation. Dugan proposed a parents committee to reform the science teaching. No other parents were interested. Interesting isn't it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 15:29:15 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: all Subject: nature table link Message: http://www.dandugan.com/waldorf/articles/nature_table/nature_table.html Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 17:54:01 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: g's mom Subject: Steiner's stuff Message: I do not remember blatant racism as quoted. (Where is this supposed to be from?) Most of the occultists of the early 20th century included racism or racialism in their teaching. Madame Blavatsky was probably the most racist. Alice Bailey a possible second. However it is arguable and can only be properly researched from source material. Obviously it is very important because the rise of Hitler is somewhat tied to this trend. I don't have any Steinerbooks anymore and I do not recall material of this (racist) nature but if it was there it was by far the least virulent. Steiner was extremely Christian in his doctrine, separating him from other occultists. The most dismaying aspect of his work in retrospect was the way he would claim spontaneous knowledge of all kinds of things through the occult (people's past lives, all kinds of unknown historical facts). However, his architecture still fascinates me and some metaphysical ideas I read about through his work hold some interest to me. I recall reading or hearing about him standing up to the Nazis and being physically attacked or killed. The overall contribution of the occult in Germany would have probably been to help rationalize the Reich even if the teachers didn't actually agree with it due to the kind of racist mentality that existed (the purpose of the Aryan to glorify God or whatever). I have also read that the Nazis had imported Tibetan lamas to Berlin as part of their swastika ceremoniousness... Maybe we should dis the Dalai Lama. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 15:49:09 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: g's mom Subject: Did you see it as a cult? Message: I'm not so agreeable with the discussions here of cult/non-cult so I won't get into whether Waldorf was a cult. I think there are mixtures of truth and fiction in all schools of thought. I'm more or less agnostic of everything. I've read some of Steiner. I'm sure he's flawed but so is everyone it seems to me. The part of the anti-semitism and bigotry was a strong part of European parlor thinking in the 20's and 30's. A big social flaw. One of the greatest poets of the 20th century, Ezra Pound was stridently anti-semitic. Some really interesting discussions on how Pound came to terms with this at the end of his life are recorded in biographies and and essays of Allen Ginsberg. Allen Ginsberg met him in the 70's, smoked some pot and played him some Dylan and the Beatles. They conversed about the anti-semitism. Pound said he regretted it. Ginsberg of course was a jew. I've read some good stuff about Steiner. According to some, those who have adopted some of his rather outlandish appearing soil fertility techniques achieved impressive results. Steiner was a theosophist, the same school originally where Krishnamurti was coronated avatar, then walked away from it all. Steiner broke away and formed the Anthroposophical society. There were numerous schisms in theosophy. A fascinating history. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 16:01:48 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: G's Mom Subject: Did you see it as a cult? Message: Colin Wilson wrote a book about Steiner. I haven't read it, but have read some of his other books and must say they man is quite a thinker and a great writer. (Colin Wilson that is. I don't have a very high opinion of Steiner from the little I know of him) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 16:39:04 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Did you see it as a cult? Message: I've read several of Colin Wilson's books. Mysteries, the Occult, a book about Crowley and perhaps one or two others. I had a remarkable synchroncity occur at the time I read Mysteries. The day before I was to take a mensa test, in 1981, I read in Mysteries about a synchronistic corroboration of Wilhelm Reich weather generation experiments vis a vis Max Fogel, of EPPI in Philadelphia, the same administrator of the same tests I was taking in the same location. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 07:22:15 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: g's mom Subject: Waldorf schools Message: I was told that prempal said that Steiner schools were closest to the perfect school. My daughter went to a Steiner Kindergarten in Balham, London. One day she came home and told us how the teacher was continually physically abusing one child. When my wife questioned this behaviour, .......to cut a long story short.......my daughter was expelled and our family was put into coventry by the Steiner community. I would stringly advise any parent not to send their children to Steiner school...and if they already have make an in-depth check into their teacher's credentials. I haven't got time to write more now, but if people are interested I will. They(Steinerists) are a group of the biggest scumbags I have met in my life. Premies were particularly fooled by the Steiner 'vibe'. Jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 03:20:04 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: g's mom Subject: Waldorf schools Message: PS Thanks for the links. I have a 30 page report to send them on the goings on at the balhamSteiner school. Regards jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 23:08:15 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: jethro Subject: thanks for your info Message: and glad you were able to get your child out. I am glad the links were of use to you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 04:22:02 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: About ashrams & K sessions Message: For those who've recently received knowledge, finally learn everything you need to know about Maharaji's ashrams (still exist in India) - new revised version - at: Ashrams' history and it's code, as written by M and for those who believe the knowledge techniques have always been shown the same way, know everything you don't know about the old premies' secrets - new revised version - plus Rev. Michael Dresbach complete comments on the Bible quotes used to validate knowledge, at Mme Tussaud's Knowledge session Thanks for your comments! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 10:17:40 (EDT)
From: Read that quote! Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: from Rev. M. D. Message: In the spirit of taking passages out of context, I will quote the Apostle Paul’s first letter to the Christians in Corinth: “Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.” (I Cor. 8:1b). Jean-Michel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 17:53:34 (EDT)
From: x Email: None To: JM Subject: ashram lunacy Message: JM, Gee, I just read the ashram rules, and I have to say that They sound a little repressive and uptight. No idle talk, soldier! Out of the kitchen you bum! At least they got an extra hour of sleep on Sundays. Priceless. What a laugh. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 14:02:16 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: x Subject: All external lights out? Message: The ashram not only put out the light of freedom, but the light of our minds. The light of love of family, and friends, of possesions, I dont know where -impressed- gets the idea that being 'nice' is valued in the maharaji environment. The ashram in hartford was filled with seething discontent that came out in highly judgemental behaviours in all the upper dust. The instructors were not nice. maybe some were but that was VERY conditional. the rawat clan were not nice that is for damn sure. Since we were in that cult, why should we be -nice- freaks now? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:51:11 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV.Net To: Everyone Subject: Goodbye and thanks for the Luv Message: Well, it's clear in my heart that it's time to bid you adeu. The messege of 'Great Meditations' is really true and that's really what I've been trying to say from the start: Find what feels good to your heart and enjoy your life. You seem to hunger so, so I've expressed a bit about how I feel and what I'm experiencing in respect to no doubt and undenyable. I can feel some true sincerity yet there is so much hostility, cuteness that is so smug and childish (And someone called me smug?) No I've been up front, clear and sincere to all of you. I've shown the respect that you've all rarely gave. Does that tell you anything? You need to get off this site, where ever you go, that's for sure. You're starting to remind me of the 'Lost Boys' from Peter Pan. I really won't be back. I wasn't going to come back on tonight, but I felt a couple of you deserved a reply. I give you my word of honor: That after I punch this sucker in, I'm gone...for good. So take care and that's a good word and the one I'll leave you with...honor. It has been my honor. Thank you. Ron Sherwood Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 01:32:02 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Ron Sherwood Subject: Honor? Message: How does someone wave the banner of honor at us? As he waves from satgurus boat of deciet. Well, he ignored a flood of great clear posts from you guys. The honorable ones of truth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 11:11:49 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Ron Sherwood Subject: Premie Cocksucker Message: No I've been up front, clear and sincere to all of you. What an asshole to say something like this!!! I asked him one simple question -- Is Maharaji the Lord? -- and he told me the answer was within. Never mind Maharaji, I'm beginning to hate PREMIES. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 11:49:24 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Premie Cocksucker Message: You know what Jim I'm beginning to agree with you. Last week when he was on with all the unbelievable grammar, spellings and lack of sense, it struck me he was a real simple person but desperate and lost without realizing it. He obviously wasn't dyslexic. Only conclusion I could come to. I mean he was walking into a site that isn't exactly pro where he is coming from, yet he made absolutely no effort, hadn't realized how appalling his postings were. How could he have so little self-respect. I reckon he was a bit nervous coming on site to save our souls the other day. This time much more articulate, not logical no, just articulate about his purpose here. I would also like to apologize for having a pop at you for your aggression when I first came on the site. I'd forgotten just how unbelievable premies could be and because of the route I took around knowledge just had NO IDEA the stuff that had gone on. Are there ever any out and out premies. who come here and who it's possible to have any kind of meaningful dialogue with? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 20:09:46 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Premie Cocksucker Message: Hamzen, No worries on the past. I had to think a bit to even recall what you were talking about. Are there premies amenable to meaningful dialogue? The short answer's 'no'. The closest I know were OP (short for Old Premie) and a guy I argued with for a while named Lance Tane back before the page began and we just chatted a bit on alt.support.ex-cult. Both seemed completely hip to the difference between responsive and evasive answers and, ostensibly committed to the former. Both jammed out when the going got tough. Lance, at least, had the decency to admit that he just wouldn't allow himself to stay rational and go deep. OP was cheerful, 'civil' but a little slimier. No, I say we keep this subject line forever. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 11:41:33 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Ron Sherwood Subject: Goodbye and thanks for the Luv Message: Ron: YOU may call naming someone a 'swine' (as in 'pearls before swine') or 'squirmy punk' respect, but I call it what it is! You didn't come here with ANY respect in your mind, at all. YOU LIAR! Well I guess M has taught you one thing, HOW TO LIE about yourself in public and HOW TO LIE to yourself in private! I've got YOUR 'lost boy' right here.... Am I PISSED? YOU BET and I'm truthful enough to say so. YOU OVERBEARING, EGOTISTICAL, CONCEITED, PRESUMPTUOUS, LYING ASSHOLE! - Squirm your way out of this little 'revelation' of YOUR TRUE nature, Rahhhhnnnn. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 12:16:39 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Everyone Subject: To everyone else: Message: To everyone except Rahhhhhnnnn: My apologies for the tirade, particularly the profanity. It was NOT meant for your eyes, only for the LIAR that said he came here with 'respect for us.' I can take a lot of things, but hypocrisy really pisses me off, especially when soemone tries to hide it behind a thin veil of 'holier than thou.' Mike Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 23:32:07 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: None To: Mike Subject: relax... Message: If you weren't doing it, one or other of the rest of us would be. Call it 'service' or something, and don't get guilty. ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 12:51:59 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Mike Subject: Can't understand Message: Why are you calling these premies names? I can't understand this: I do have very good old friends who are exactly like that, same kind of reasoning. I met 2 of them yesterday, I had not seen for 1 year 1/2 since I don't go to those EV meetings. They looked catatonic, twas a shock for me. Maybe they were already like this before .... I was so close to them I wouldn't notice. Can you imagine how you are when you spend 2 hours meditating (on your 'mind') 2 hours a day, guilty about it, going to watch videos almost every night, I mean that's for typical premies, and desperately trying to have some kind of wrecked life of your own.... These guys are victims, more or less, that's all. No need to make them feel bad this way. When I see this, I can't help thinking that there is ONE responsible for this, and that is the BM, and that's all. I don't really know why these guys post here in spite of m's agya. Maybe they try to show something to the other premies, or try to convince some wavering premies, whatever. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 13:13:06 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Let me help! Message: JM: When someone comes here and refers to me (personally) as 'swine' and Jim as a 'squirmy punk,' then I get a little righteously indignant. Especially when that same guy (Ron) posts that he 'came with respect for us.' I DIDN'T start the name-calling, but I won't let someone get away with it either. Maybe letting them know (in a strong way) what they are doing will bring them to their senses. Like I said in my follow-on post, it wasn't meant for you, it was meant for one guy (and only one guy), Ron. - As I hope you've noticed, I don't call people names and I don't use profanity (most of the time). I've never called Keith or Bobby anything disrespectful, even though I don't often (if ever) agree with anything they say. I HAVE had words with Mel (as he knows), but he UNDERSTOOD the context and everything settled down quickly. I've found that by responding in an 'unusual' manner (e.g. in some way other than my norm), people will take REAL notice. NO PREMIE or anyone else will receive insults (or name-calling) from me unless they start it and get REALLY insulting. Obviously, I don't like being referred to as 'swine.' - Again, JM, this is NOT my norm and I'm sorry if it offended you. But I 'felt' the need and I went with my 'feelings.' It was directed to the purveyor of the insults, not at premies in general. - Thanks for your thoughtful post, JM. It allowed me to better express my feelings on 'flaming' in general. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 16:27:22 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Mike Subject: Let me help! Message: he he .... It looks like I haven't read all of those guys posts! He is sooo boring! Why did you read all his stuff BTW ? I can't. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 16:56:03 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Well..... Message: JM: You brought up a really good question. I THOUGHT we (Ron and I) were going to have a 'dialogue.' Well, I've now learned what you guys were talking about with premies that visit this forum. I got a first-hand look at it. I did him the respect of reading what he wrote (all of it) and hoped he would do the same. I will say one thing, though. We MUST have gotten to him a little bit because he was ready to 'blow.' His temper was on the edge and, to me, that's a good sign. BUT YOU ARE RIGHT.... BOOOOORING! he he he. ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 18:24:59 (EDT)
From: Impressed and Goodbye Email: None To: Mike Subject: Well..... Message: I'm going through a lot of the things you guys are; and I'm really seeing that a lot of what Ron said is true. We flame, he throws a little match and you say he was about to blow? I don't think so. Impressed and Goodbye Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 19:02:24 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Impressed and Goodbye Subject: Silly.... Message: Imp: You say, 'we flame and he throws a match.....' I'm going to say this one last time: HE threw the match and THEN I lit the flame. Get the order right, ok? He DID NOT HAVE to try to flame me because he was getting it from elsewhere. I'm an individual,too. I deserve some respect, too. I'm not going to cut him any slack for being a member of a mind-bending cult. I was treating him with some respect, but he wasn't happy with that. He wanted me to AGREE with him. Sorry, but I've been 'there' and I've done 'that' and it's NOT TRUE from my point of view. I can't even bring myself to partially agree, but at least I'm telling you that up front. Now if you want to leave because I (we, whatever) disagree with your take on Ron, then go ahead. I haven't left this forum, even though I'm in a definite political minority and have taken some MAJOR hits for being so. That's just silly, in my opinion. If you can't take disagreement with an opinion, then you need to work on the 'thickness' of your skin. I didn't flame because of a difference of opinion, I flamed him because he threw an unnecessary, personal insult at me.... Period! You can try to 'paint' a happy face on it all you want, but an insult it was! - You'll notice that I spoke with Ron the exact same way I'm speaking with you. That's my preferred method and you didn't try to 'light my flame thrower.' HE DID! He was ANGRY because he wasn't 'winning us over.' - If you do read this and still decide to leave, then goodbye and have a nice weekend. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 19:27:56 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Impressed and Goodbye Subject: Well..... Message: I'm going through a lot of the things you guys are What do you mean by this, Impressed? Are you disillusioned with M as we are? If you are, this is the place to talk about it. Please do. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 20:56:21 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Impressed and Goodbye Subject: Think, Imp. Think Message: Imp, I lost it with Ron because he promised to discuss Maharaji openly, civilly and thoroughly but, as soon as I asked him to state his opinion on Maharaji's alleged divine or alleged swell guy status, he replied: I can only guide you to the place, where you can find your answer and that's within. What good is it to you what I would say. You have to find out for yourself. If you get stood up for a date you're entitled to get pissed off. It's got nothing to do with whether the other person raised their voice or even stopped smiling. The point is they mislead you and wasted your time or expectation. Ron did that. Can't you see that? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 13:45:44 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Can't understand Message: Come on Jean-Michel, Ron came here to save our souls, Student came here to take the piss and have a laugh in a moment of boredom. No room for doubt in either of their minds. To those of you who first started posting when you were half and half didn't you find the courage to express some doubt or indecision. Last week when he came I was prepared to offer him the benefit of doubt especially with the deranged nature of his posts and felt quite sad for him but this time he left no room for doubt, he was quite explicit about his position. You can have too much niceness, isn't that how greaseball cons everyone. He uses their niceness and naivete. By the way thanks for all the work you do on the site, I don't know how you can bare even looking at that stuff when you are sorting it out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 16:38:39 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Can't understand Message: I don't know how you can bare even looking at that stuff when you are sorting it out. It's all the stuff I still have in MY head, and I've discovered it needs examination! I'm the 1st one to be surprised. Regarding Ron Student etc, I think I understand their rage. We're attacking their faith and doing what they'd like doing I guess ... But I couldn't find the energy discussing with them. Like those 2 premies I saw the other day: they couldn't stop talking about nothing and anything. I had to tell them : shut up, do this, don't do that, listen to me, litterally, like speaking to little children, when they are 45. I mean children are not that stupid. I was feeling very sorry for them. Couldn't tell them my feelings. Finally they thanked me, I don't know for what! I must still have some magical power with me, I've been an instructor after all !! he he Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 19:18:46 (EDT)
From: xyz Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: post spite of m's agya? Message: besides his general dislike for the internet, as they say, did you hear that m gave 'agya' not to post? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 19:33:48 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: xyz Subject: post spite of m's agya? Message: Please, more info. I've read rumours here that he was anti-net, but no-one has ever been able to quote directly, unless I missed it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 19:51:35 (EDT)
From: xyz Email: None To: hamzen Subject: post spite of m's agya? Message: Jean-Michel wrote I don't really know why these guys post here in spite of m's agya. I was actually asking, looked back at my post and it did look like a statement. Am i to assume that this is true? you know, play it safe? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 03:40:18 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: xyz Subject: m's agya? Message: I have to admit that I wasn't there when M said that. But when he says he's pissed with something, shouts a bit and give some phone calls, guess what it's called? When the Lord gets mad about something, what do PAMs do? and premies? They OBEY. They'll do anything they can to please their Lord. Does it really need to be more precise? Even M said something like the previous sentence, I've heard it myself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 05:47:51 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: Jean-Michel Subject: MJ's agya for sure--I was ... Message: This is for certain. He said it in Miami, May 8-10, 1998. That is how I found out about this site. MJ distinctly said, 'Don't go out on the net (I knew he meant, don't punch my title into the net). When MJ said this, I shivered; it sent warning bells off in my head. If it had not been for this site, I would still be operating against my will. THANK GOODNESS FOR YOU FOLKS AND THIS CYBERSPACE. I gave two videos of this event to Jim. I still have two. I will check my two videos. If it is not on there, maybe Jim can waste a couple of hours with his two sessions of garbage. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 06:02:50 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Gail Subject: MJ's agya for sure--I was ... Message: Thanks for that Gail. Validation of the site or what! BIG shout out to those who set the site up and do/have done all the background work that keeps it going. Much appreciated. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 06:04:43 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Hamzen Subject: He has also said numerous ... Message: times, 'The net is more like a parking lot than a super info-highway.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 05:51:23 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: m's agya? Message: Sorry to labour the point Jean-Michel, but could you give any of the background story, if not direct quotes re slimeballs comments. The reason I'm asking is that I have an ongoing debate with a premie, certainly one a lot more open to dialogue than the ones who call in here. I was married to her for 15 years. But I've found the best parts of my debate with her are when I can pin her down directly about gm, especially when I can give direct quotes or can say that a number of different people from different source routes have picked up information about him. She will respond differently depending on the reliability of the evidence and I know from a previous discussion she can't believe gm would be so anti- the net, in fact got quite defensive but all I could say to her was that there was a suspicion that he had asked for the premie web site to be shut down last year. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 06:23:47 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: hamzen Subject: m's agya? Message: My 'experience' is that it's pointless arguing with premies. When they really start discussing issues by themselves, then this is another story ... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 07:00:53 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: m's agya? Message: Bottom line I'm sure you're right (re gm), but I do know for sure that my ex HAS altered her positions on a number of things around so called 'spiritual' stuff and does not see gm as perfect in every single area which leaves some room for sharing with someone you have some feeling/respect for. She is prepared to debate and really try to understand my position. The recent stuff I've been finding about tryptamines/dmt in our brains and connections to the pineal gland she found fascinating and explained a lot to her. Now she might well have what I would class as dodgy explanations about god setting it all up but she wasn't in the least bit threatened by it. For her, her internal experience of god/spirit/her self has always come before gm. As she said herself recently, if I had to choose between my internal experience and gm, no contest. Internal is way ahead. I see a difference between arguing & debate-sharing information. All the years we were together we were way outside all the official stuff and altered our perceptions through a number of different information sources. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 12:57:15 (EDT)
From: xyz....Wm Email: None To: hamzen Subject: m's agya? Message: I am kind of the same way, need more specifics. I have a page I have set up with my server and it has generated some work and my family keeps more in touch through email, can't remember that last snail mail I got. There is the tech help and updates for the occasional software I buy, tv guide, weather report, and pay porn. Since we are not being specific, M did set up the vidio only 'propagation'. I could say 'recieve knowledge, this is my experiance'; or just 'this is my experiance', and I can see it being against his wishs. Jeans right, I guess I have been fooling myself. I'm am still going to be on the net and its easy to click over here but reading and not particapating is getting to predictable and even Jim's railing against premie cocksuckers doesn't faze me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 13:19:45 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: xyz....Wm Subject: NEW PREMIE WEB SITE Message: You'll like this one then, just been speaking to my ex. She informs me that a net site is being set up by premies in London, who are completely pissed off with all the anti-m material here on the ex-premie site. Should be getting more details tonight. But then what if the quote from m, see Gails post, is explicit that you shouldn't be on the net? It can't be easy following a luddite guru, but remember that he only says it so as to protect the new premies from confusion. Realize I'm already starting to sound a bit sarkey. How do you do deal with conflicts like that, doesn't m's position re controlling information worry you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 13:41:20 (EDT)
From: Wm Email: None To: hamzen Subject: NEW PREMIE WEB SITE Message: The words of Alfred E Newman comes to mind 'what?.. me worry'. 'What if's are not easy to deal with, but I don't want to ignore your question. I would not stop using the internet. and If Maharaji came into my house in the middle of the night, dressed in black and with a mask on, robbing me. I would shoot him. Post that http location of the new premie here or over at the other premie site thanks Wm Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 12:11:00 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Wm Subject: NEW PREMIE WEB SITE Message: 'The words of Alfred E Newman comes to mind 'what?.. me worry'. 'What if's are not easy to deal with, but I don't want to ignore your question. I would not stop using the internet' Good, nothing better than a sense of personal independence. You'll like the company of this new site. No start date or site address yet but the people starting it are well aware of gm's antithesis toward anything on the net. They are still going ahead. Whether they will if they get direct agya is another question. We will see. Re Katies interesting response, let us know when and what kind of response you get by e-mail from ev, if they are still using the same approach now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 07:54:12 (EDT)
From: Wm Email: None To: hamzen Subject: NEW PREMIE WEB SITE Message: sure, I guess I will have to set up a junk email address. I'll do it tonight, got to go to work now. I may or may not post there, we'll see. I guess I could post here again with the new email address listed above, and if you want to email me the location, as this thread will eventually go to la la land. Wm Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 04:42:41 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: hamzen Subject: PREMIE WEB SITE:can't believe Message: I don't believe it! Those guys will definitely receive strong satsang and hours of talks with EV's managers. I'm ready to bet their site won't last, let's say more than 1 month .... if they put it up by surprise, not one day if they're already known. Let's see. Talking about an interactive site, not the kind of site like the one that's already up with phone # and one picture! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 17:35:15 (EDT)
From: hamz en Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: PREMIE WEB SITE:can't believe Message: A while back my source was telling me it was all rumours that HE was agin the web. Since that has now been blown to smithereens, I'm told that there ARE independent free thinking renegade premies prepared to follow their inner voice even when HE doesn't want it. The wonders of premie hope. How hard it must be to see their lord being ridiculed! The frustration of the devotional path in an open society, especially when he has to protect the babies on the route. It's all so..... unjust. 'Lets see', says it all really. What a breakthrough if it was to happen though. . Dream on hamzen. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 15:34:56 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: None To: xyz....Wm Subject: Whooo...! Message: and even Jim's railing against premie cocksuckers doesn't faze me. Why not step right in, slugger? Your fellow beleaguered cultsters could do with a big-hitter right now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 14:01:22 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: hamzen Subject: M and the net - some info Message: Hi Hamzen, xyz, and all - Here's what I know about what M has said about premies posting on the Net. 1. There was an premie website with a guestbook, phone numbers, everything. Lots of premies posted devotional messages on this site. The site was run by two premies named Harlan and Mili. The site was taken down within the last year (can't remember exact date, but I think it was around the beginning of this year), and has been replaced by a short listing of phone numbers. When asked, Mili said that 'people around Maharaji' (a.k.a. PAM) asked them to take down the site. He further added that he heard that Maharaji thought it was 'too much of an exclusive club', whatever that means. 2. People who had posted on the premie website were apparently contacted and told that Maharaji did not want premies talking about Knowledge on the internet. The reason we know this is because Brian (our webmaster) had posted on the premie site using another e-mail address, and he was contacted by e-mail and phone by premies named Booth Dyess (sp?) and David Coyne and told this. Brian asked if this was direct agya from Maharaji, and was told, I believe, that 'people around Maharaji' (PAM) wanted this. Brian used to have the whole story of this phone call on the web site. It might still be there, but I can't find it (I've asked him where it is and am waiting to hear back from him). 3. According to Gail and others, Maharaji has been very anti-internet in his talks at recent events. 4. Also, a premie that I know in Australia has said that he knows FOR SURE that one premie in his country has been given the job of reading the ex-premie site. Premies who post on the ex-premie site and put their e-mail addresses are contacted and told to quit posting on the ex-premie site. I think Gail also said once that one of the premies in Canada had the job of monitoring this site (they must get pretty bored when we talk about Bill Clinton...). That's all I know - hope it sheds some light on the subject. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 14:11:09 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: all Subject: M and the net - some info Message: I found the URL for the story of the phone call that Brian got. It's at Calling all Premies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 14:16:22 (EDT)
From: xyz Email: None To: Katie Subject: M and the net - some info Message: File Not Found The requested URL /forum3/'//www.ex-premie.org/pages/calling.htm was not found on this server. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 14:28:08 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: xyz Subject: oops - try it again now Message: I fixed the link in my previous post. If you want to cut and paste, the URL is: http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/calling.htm Sorry about that! Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 14:24:49 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: John Coyne tried to help Message: Brian actually gave me John Coyne's phone number and I called him. You asked yesterday, Ham, if premies always lie and dissmemle when confronted and I mentioned OP and Lance Tane. Well, there's another kind of posturing too, that demonstrated by Coyne. I told him all the reasons I could think of why Maharaji's a worthless piece of shit and John told me that,if nothing else, I sounded 'really sincere'. As a boon, he was going to try to contact Maharaji, or someone pretty damn close, and try to arrange for me to talk with the man. I told him it was extremely nice - but even more naive for him to do so. There was no way in the world Maharaji would talk with me/us/anyone. In fact, I told him Linda Gross, the presidnet of Elan Vital U.S. had made the same promise and, after a few apprently softly peddled inquiries to the Office of Maharaji (OM?), came back empty-handed. Still, John said he'd try. I checked back with him a little while later -- no luck. Hey, what a surprise. Good thing I hadn't packed yet. I also talked with David Smith once, asking him if it would be possible to get some answers from Maharaji. He was a real cipher. It was like talking to a CD without the grin. Anyway, Coyne told me that he and some others who were close to Maharaji 'took it upon themselves' to try to discourage premies from posting on the premie page. Maharaji was clearly agin it and they wanted to spread the word. Nothing heavy, just a little friendly advice. For 'your soul', you know. I hope a premie page does start up because it would be a real hoot. As Harlan's page demonstrated -- especially after ham-fisted Mili started helping him -- there is no way the premies of 1998 can be allowed to discuss Maharaji with one another. There are too many firmly convinced he's the Lord and too many equally sure he's never gone anywhere near that far in exclaiming his 'specialness' and, to whom, such reports are wrong and crazy. So let them start talking. This'll be fun. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 16:55:58 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Jim Subject: John Coyne tried to help Message: If I was bi-sexual Jim, I'd ask you to come over to merry England. Love ya and REALLY appreciate everything you do here. Thanks for the feedback. 'I hope a premie page does start up because it would be a real hoot. As Harlan's page demonstrated -- especially after ham-fisted Mili started helping him -- there is no way the premies of 1998 can be allowed to discuss Maharaji with one another. There are too many firmly convinced he's the Lord and too many equally sure he's never gone anywhere near that far in exclaiming his 'specialness' and, to whom, such reports are wrong and crazy. So let them start talking. This'll be fun.' My sentiments exactly. Could be really amusing, we'll see. After my call tonight it seems that no dates have been set for up and running, that she knows of. Caused a few problems too by releasing this info, whoops, as usual everything should be kept quiet in the premie world. Why do I get the impression this site is getting up a few peoples noses. Technology and democracy, what a threatening combination to holy deception. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 17:33:57 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Katie Subject: M and the net - some info Message: Much appreciation for the info, Katie, how long can he stop the leakage I wonder, certainly not for ever. But I bet he shuts this new one down pronto. Either that or it will just be a PR job with no interaction. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 20:32:05 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Katie Subject: M and the net - some info Message: I think they know it will put people off to read the truth about what the cult does to you - when you see in black and white some idiot (like me 6 months ago) saying how much they love Maharaji, how he is their special love, the reason they are alive, whatever, they know how bad it looks to outsiders. The instructor suggested to me not to say any sort of 'feeling' stuff when telling people about 'Him' but just to say something like: there's someone you might enjoy listening to. They must know damn well they are encouraging people to 'cover up' and thus deceive others, about their 'true' feelings: which are encouraged in you once you've been 'reeled in'. For example I was told 'even though you will see many people at an event - just think - he's MY Maharajai'. I was told by an instructor - Just think - he's come to save me, to protect me and (something else I can't remember). This was when I was very vulnerable - when begging to receive knowledge. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 21:49:38 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Judith Subject: Superior, what us! Message: Doesn't it just give you the creeps, eh Judith! I can remember being so holier-than-thou too, about the Children of God, with all of their deceptions and whatnot! Is this a bad dream I'm having or what? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 04:35:56 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Katie Subject: M and the net - monitoring Message: Gail also said once that one of the premies in Canada had the job of monitoring this site ( A spanish ex confirmed this on the French forum: there are also spanish premies monitoring the site. As far as I know, it's always been like that: premies have always been monitoring the anti-cult articles in magazines, books, TV shows, etc, even getting in touch with anti-cults campains responsibles, trying to explain them how EV is not a cult. Quite laughable. I think it does exactly the contrary. They can't understand this, they live in another world, Maharaji's! Plenty of EV's meetings on this very issue for PR staff and EV's managers. Nothing new. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 19:59:10 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Can't understand Message: 'I don't really know why these guys post here in spite of m's agya.' Jean-Michel, do you have any quotes or background info? I've only seen rumours here that he was anti the net, nothing concrete. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 14:49:51 (EDT)
From: Impressed with the Luv Email: None To: Mike Subject: Goodbye and thanks for the Luv Message: There was something different about this guy. Again, I'm not so far gone that I couldn't feel it. He didn't come off to me as an overbearing egotistical conceited presumtuous liar but just the opposite. Nor did he speak like he didn't realize his words could be appalling to us. But mostly, I felt he had a sincere self respect for himself and a respect for us. When he finally shot back with 'punk' I felt further balance in him like he cared but wasn't afraid either. Yes, he had self respect. Impressed with Ron Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 15:17:34 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Impressed with the Luv Subject: Goodbye and thanks for the Luv Message: I think his ''self respect'' and ''respect'' were indeed extremely thin facades which quickly crumbled. But what do I know. I am probably ''too far gone.'' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 15:30:49 (EDT)
From: Impressed with Ron Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Goodbye and thanks for the Luv Message: I didn't think anything crumbled. And he had been called a lot of names before he called someone a punk. No, he didn't start it. I felt something kind in him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 15:40:58 (EDT)
From: Impressed with Ron Email: None To: Mike Subject: Goodbye and thanks for the Luv Message: I think his 'swine' was a figure of speech and not directed at you personally. And some of what he said has been good for me. Impressed Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 15:54:36 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Impressed with Ron Subject: trying to understand you Message: I think his 'swine' was a figure of speech and not directed at you personally. And some of what he said has been good for me. Impressed Well, I don't recall him saying that directly to me, although certainly he directed it to the people to whom he was talking. What ''good'' did you get out of his posts? I am sincere here. Maybe I missed something? Can you be specific if it's not too much trouble? (going back through things that is) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 17:03:47 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Impressed with Ron Subject: NO Agreement at all! Message: Imp: I wholeheartedly DISAGREE with you. He was everything I said and more. His facade of equanimity was crumbling because he lost his temper (a fairly obvious sign). 'I' didn't call him ANYTHING but Ron, until he got insulting. Look at the dates/times of my posts and his. You will KNOW the truth on this one. Sorry, but when someone says they aren't going to tell me something because it's 'casting pearls before swine,' what the heck am I to infer? That he thinks I a worthwhile person? That my opinions count, too? Yeah, right! - The only thing impressive about Ron is the depth of his self-inflicted blindness! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 17:27:25 (EDT)
From: Impressed with Ron Email: None To: Mike Subject: NO Agreement at all! Message: The thing I need in this site is an attempt to be honest. His Maharaj Ji was degraded he felt with bad language and he called that person a punk. So what? I don't think that he lost his temper or was blind. What good I felt in him was kindness toward everyone. Maybe that person didn't call him names, but others did; Many times and it never bothered him. Maybe he showed we can dish it out better then we can take it. And infer? That anything he would confide in us we would down, I think it's fairly true. Even after he said punk he said to have a nice night. Temper, no; dishing and kindness, is what I feel. Have to go now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 17:40:26 (EDT)
From: Now I get it... Email: None To: All Subject: Imp's a premie! nt Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 18:10:07 (EDT)
From: Impressed Email: None To: Now I get it... Subject: Imp's a premie! nt Message: How little you know. You're completely wrong. I'm breaking free from this site of sorry negitivity. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 18:19:34 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Impressed Subject: Imp's a premie! nt Message: Imp: you may be right about the 'negativity.' But, when we do get happy, it IS based upon something REAL, not an 'imaginary voyage.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 19:14:46 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Impressed with Ron Subject: NO Agreement at all! Message: 'His m------ -- was degraded' because mr mindsuck himself never gave a flying fig about degrading everyone on this site not forgetting the many who'll never be able to make it here. Ron chose to come here, the frontispiece for the site makes it plain you need to lurk for a while to get the flavour and the background to the communicative style.. Kindness my arse, he came here to save our souls. This site is predicated on debate. He would not debate. If he had of done, there would have been a better chance of a reasonable response. As it was I was amazed at the self-constraint of most of the responses to him. So he was polite, but not the people here. Maybe that's the problem you're having. Your a gentle soul and the world is a cruel place? In an ideal site when everyone has dealt with their anger, maybe that will happen. But this is the real world of feelings and people will go over the top to balance things out. There are a few issues to deal with, n'est ce pas? Isn't that how you-know-who sucked us all in on some level or other. Our innocence left us all standing there waiting with our mouths wide open for the hook to drop. People have lost decades because of it, but hey that's irrelevant. Ron knows that only the love of the Lord counts. In my eyes that makes him an insulting apologist. And that's without looking into his circular logic and spiritual arrogance. What are people supposed to do with their righteous anger when confronted with all of the above, smile sweetly and stay calm? I'm not having a pop, I would genuinely like to know. Yes it would be good to have a measured tone but that builds from relationships. I would like to talk more from the so called 'spirit' side but I've waited a month before risking inflaming people with just such topics. Until Ron turned up it wasn't so hard. But Ron was just on a flying visit. So where was his kindness on that one? I'm also aware I'm not perfect in this regard. Apologies again Sir D if I was out of order. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 17:38:38 (EDT)
From: x Email: None To: Mike Subject: Ron Surewierd Message: I think Ron is a pompous fool, and I had to restrain myself from getting involved in his discussion.Ron's just like any self obsessed, deluded religion addict who's well being depends on believing that he is superior, and knows more than the average 'rabble'. Just be glad you escaped a nutty cult, and managed to reclaim your life. Leave Ron in his little fairy tale with his imaginary friend/alarm clock, he's happy there.bye, x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 17:58:14 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: x Subject: Ron Surewierd Message: x: Long time, no hear! You are right, of course. I like the 'imaginary friend/alarm clock.' That was pretty good.... he he he. ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 19:03:06 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Ever notice... Message: that the fuzzheads (premies) who post here, with rare exception, can barely string two sentences together in a literate manner? I mean, check out their spelling, grammar, punctuation, sentence and paragraph construction. Never mind their logic. Could this be a sign of some real and serious organic brain damage? Is it possible that the ''practice of Knowledge'' can cause physical harm? Or am I getting too far out here? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 19:21:48 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Ever notice... Message: Gerry: I think we 'might' be stretching a bit. I think it's an indicator of the general lack of education. This is compounded by the fact that they don't continue their education because M has already given them all of the REAL answers. This same problem exists with the Jehovah's Nitwits cult. They believe (again and again) that the earth is going to end. Because of this, most of their kids don't have a college degree. They've practically ruined an entire generation because of this nonsense. So here's another similarity between cults. God forbid that you learn something that might disagree with your concepts or 'why bother, because the earth is going to blow-up anyway.' - In this arena I get very negative because I see no end to cults and the people that want to take their seats there. No, there aren't commies behind every tree... we were mistaken... it was cult leaders behind every tree! Well, at least we got it right eventually.... he he he Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 19:27:22 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Ever notice... Message: Language can only exist with at least a minimal level of logic and self-questioning as part of your daily reality? No mind = no sense? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 06:19:06 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Yup--you're too far out there. Message: I never had difficulty reading, writing or being logical. The only time logic left was when it came to cult matters. The people you are referring to may have been scooped by the cult at 15 and did not pursue further education. Many premies I know have a poor education and don't read. One thing, though--Peter Lennin told me that I didn't have to read fiction books anymore, and I believed him. I have never read a book for pleasure since receiving K. Of course, we must not forget that MJ is constantly poo-pooing the newspaper and news telecasts. I once said to a collegue, 'I don't need to read the newspaper to tell you what's happening. It's all bad.' KEEP THE PREMIES IGNORANT. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 10:09:55 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Gail Subject: reading Message: Good point about reading, Gail. People rarely leave school with a totally sound grasp of grammar, punctuation or (especially) spelling - even the brightest kids. But the more you read later on, the more you absorb correct usage, I think, without any special effort. And - of course - the more you read, the more you learn! What does suggest lack of intelligence for me, though, is the way Maharaj Ji, even after all these years in the west, will rarely see a single train of thought through from start to finish when he is speaking. He still talks this crazy, infuriating shorthand that involves constantly interrupting himself mid-sentence. ( I've heard this condition called 'grasshopper mind'.) I think it is a form of self defense that prevents his satsangs being analysed, since the broken fragments of ideas he puts across don't actually add up to anything when taken in total. When it comes down to it, he is essentially saying nothing at all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 13:35:47 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: nigel Subject: reading Message: Good point Nigel, isn't that the classic blank slate for anyone to project what they want to onto him in their mind's eye? The more mystery the better, little snippets to keep people going but no more. He can never be pinned down about where he is coming from. Until he radically changes position. Isn't that one of the things that's great about this site. The deconstruction and demythologizing of mr wonderful and all his works. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 20:10:47 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: nigel Subject: M's crazy talk Message: I've heard it said that if you just read the speeches of Hitler, in retrospect, not being a part of the nationalistic spirit and huge crowds he spoke to, that his speeches are all total nonsense, possessing nothing of genuine content. Isn't this the case of all charismatic leaders? Don't they somehow appeal to a need in the people they address that allows them to say anything they want, just so long as that need is addressed? They don't have to neccesarily fulfill that need, just so long as they give the impression that they can. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 20:51:59 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: nigel Subject: reading Message: Nigel glad to hear you say this. It all helps. When I first started listening to Maharaji I had had a kind of breakdown. And I thought his mind was so brilliant I just couldn't follow his thoughts. It made me feel like I must be very scattered and lost in my mind. Maybe I wasn't. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:30:49 (EDT)
From: Chuck Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Great meditation exp. contd. Message: When dealing with all these thoughts, isn't there stress? Aren't most people very stressed out? Isn't hate and anger part of stress. The biggest effect of meditation on me is the opposite of stress. It could be called relaxation but the Starr report is all about President Clinton's method of relaxation. I call it tranquility. But there appears to be no end to how tranquil I can feel. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 01:10:19 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Chuck Subject: Great meditation exp. contd. Message: Well, this site is not actually here because we are for or against the breath in us and all humans since ages ago. It is the deceptive religion that was handed to us and our gripes with that. Also, for us to just quietly let prem rawat go about his marketing of himself as lord, is very irresponsible and not at all what is called for. Lots of people have felt the breath before you and were not freed up in thier life because prem rawat dominated our lives so much and claimed to be holding 'that experience' just out of reach and completely at his disposal to give. I amnot talking about getting the so called knowledge, we already had that. Cmon Chuck, there are two very seperate subjects here, our life inside, and prem rawats claims. One does not validate the other. Do you think it is ok to do a global hindu guru trip when the facts are that he is no more than you and me. Do you see that it is two very seperate things? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 01:48:21 (EDT)
From: Chuck Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Great meditation exp. contd. Message: When experiencing my heart or 'that other place' there is no me or you or Maharaji, just that feeling that people want to feel but do not even know it exists. Maharaji's father said that if you think that meditation makes you one with everyone, then you are wrong (do you agree with this). You are already one with everyone but meditation lets you feel (experience) it. I could say that you are infinitely happy now but it does you no good unless you are feeling it. From my experience that place is beyond suffering and misery. It could be called love, peace, tranquility, contentment, satisfaction, happiness but you have probably felt thousands of different feelings that are all different but could be described with those few words. But there is a place where every good feeling you could ever have is there. You could call it the mother load. This place existed before Maharaji was born, before Maharaji's rise to power existed, before you were born and before the physical world existed (big bang). My experience in meditation. Previously I called it beyond time and space. It existed before these existed and will be there when they are no longer there. It is your true self or original nature. But I am telling FIRST HAND that it does exist and will never not exist even though your hates will perish. There are side effects of experincing this place. It burns away traumas, hurts, disappointments, fears, hate, frustration, anxiety and all these NORMAL feelings. Is it real or not real? Is it live or Memorex? This is for the theologians to argue out since they don't have much enjoyment. Now President Clinton and Monica were not discussing if what they felt was real or not real or imaginary. They were to busy enjoying the experience they were having. That is why they did what they did. They did not do it so they could all this press coverage. As far as the mind wondering if something is real or not, sometimes you are dreaming but think it is real until you wake up. How do you know that you are not dreaming now and merely dreamt that you woke up from last night's sleep? Well you don't but it does not matter. Even when you are dreaming you want to feel good. Do you ever say to yourself that it is OK if you have extremely horrifying dreams (nightmares) since they are not real? Did you ever want to go back asleep and continue an unreal dream because it felt really good? Could all good feelings come from one place and all bad feelings come from another place? Is there something you can do to put you more in touch with the place where all good feelings come from? Can someone go beyond misery and suffering while still alive? Did Buddha find a cure for sickness, old age, death and all suffering? These are the important questions to ask. Any psychologist in our culture will tell you that if 2 people are arguing over whether a certain living, breathing lifeform is God or not, then they are both crazy. In India there are a number of incarnations of God walking around. One of them (Babaji) is over 2,000 years old but does not even look a day over 1,000 years old. If you have not experienced this other place, you can not imagine what it is like. You can only imagine experiences similar to what you have had. If you tell a gay man how nice your sex with a woman was, it will sound disgusting to him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 02:19:23 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Chuck Subject: Great meditation exp. contd. Message: Wow, you made a lot of sentences there and certainly different people in the forum can discuss different ones. Chuck, I will stick to your first comments, certainly his father had a very difficult time with rage. even prem rawat will admit that althought he tries to give some excuse like it was helpful to beat that guy with the stick numerous times. Like Ron saying, 'maybe maharaji hit those people in the stomach in a loving way' maharaji used tomake fun of his mom regularly and managed to avoid her for 17 years till she died. If you think YOU can shout and scream at folks, prem rawat has taken pride in how good he can yell. stated in fact that he can yell at someone and if he keeps going, first they become stunned, then they lose bodily control then they lose consiousness, then if he keeps yelling, they die. Just the facts mam. him and his father dont think there is a god so they can pretend to be the god. That is why they are so nuts in my opinion. Would a careing heart filled with holy name drive his wife to say'I know he loves me premies, but that is the thing I doubt the most.' why? because of his behaviour. Because of REALITY. Would a careing heart filled with holy name fuck around on his wife for many years and he is so brazen with his cheating that she is dishonored to the point that she has to say she doesnt want her to come in the house. Are you married? Does that sentence mean anything to you? And at the bottom of your post but the same issue, just because someone says there is a 1000 year old guy in india, you believe it? Is there nothing that makes you say 'duh, maybe people are liars very often in life and I have to watch out so I don't be a sucker for them all.' You are sincere, that does not make everyone sincere. If god was really so prevelant in us, ...I mean, do you have much interaction with people? You discount the possibility of liars in religion matters, and you discount the reality that most people are good and have actual honest to god real moments of great experience as a matter of natural course in thier lives without any so called spiritual method. care to restate some of your post? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 20:55:32 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Chuck Subject: Oh no no no that's not true Message: Hey Chuck, you must be God. But if you're not then I think you've bought into the Hindu trip a little too much. What you experience in meditation can be very peaceful. Very tranquil. But it isn't the thing that was here before the universe was here. That's just ridiculous. Likewise, any peace you get from meditation is not rock solid. I know. I have done meditation off and on since 1972. The experience comes and goes just like the weather. It is not constant and you're fooling people if you say it is. You can have a good meditation and then a few minutes later, lose your temper or just feel depressed. If you meditate there's no guarantee that you're going to feel good. You might feel awful later on. ANd look; regarding this stuff about going to that place where the universe started - come on man, we know that's not true. You've just read it in Hindu scriptures or heard it in satsang. You're still sitting in your room. You haven't gone anywhere. You may have slowed down and felt some relaxation but really; gone to that place beyond time and space? Who are you trying to kid? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 01:52:50 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Chuck Subject: Great meditation exp. contd. Message: You call WHAT tranquility? bill clintons method of stress relief? Of course there is an end to that tranquility you can feel. After you snuggle with the wife, just mention she would be able to move better if she lost a couple pounds. Time to call up an old forum ghost. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 10:41:14 (EDT)
From: Fan of bill Email: None To: bill Subject: Great meditation exp. contd. Message: bill, you crack me up! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:16:15 (EDT)
From: Chuck Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Great meditation experiences Message: I have been reading the latest forum messages. There are 2 things in us. One has been called the ego or mind and the other is called the heart (previously called soul but no longer politically correct). I am a current student of Maharaji (since 1976). All of this discussion is what comes from the mind- thoughts. The heart just wants to feel good. If Maharaji is God or good has nothing to do with the heart wanting to feel good. Trying to find truth in M's words does not work. At the same time there was talk about M being God, there were the stories about why M (the Satguru) is greater than God. How can God be greater than God. Also everyone has their own opinion on what God is. If God is everywhere then everything and everybody is God. So people saying that M is not God are saying he is beyond God. Hindus beleive that Buddha is an incarnation of God. Buddhists don't beleive in God and beleive Buddha was an enlightened being. If Maharaji is like Buddha then which belief is right. All belie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 01:26:26 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Chuck Subject: Great meditation experiences Message: If you like, I will post the actual words of buddha so you can see what a total charlatan he was. Beliefs cannot change that fact. Your saying that if god is everywhere then everyone is god is something someone told you but have another look. Why stop at the first sentence that someone throws you and ignore all the realities of the way things actually are around you? Life is not endlessly foggy and you dont actually view life as if everyone is god. If evidence is there to be seen, we have the option of accepting it. Denying evidence is an option, and we are free to mispercieve life all we want and do, best of luck in this but dont fergit that 'mind thoughts' are part and parcel of our design and why should we listen to those geniuses who make distainful comments obout our thinking capacity? Like it is less than this -mythical spirituality.- Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 03:21:19 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Chuck Subject: Great meditation experiences Message: There are 2 things in us. One has been called the ego or mind and the other is called the heart (previously called soul but no longer politically correct) Who's told you that? Try to remember if you had that kind of idea BEFORE knowing anything about m's knowledge? This is one of the points where m's endoctrination starts. 'Knowledge' is a belief system, linked to some of your genuine aspirations, and to some of your weaknesses (we all have some). The 'knowledge' system brings some sort of an answer to everything. At a big cost. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 10:16:58 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Chuck Subject: M's words Message: Trying to find truth in M's words does not work. Then why bother even listening to them? Why, then, would one of the agreements you have with M be that you 'keep in touch' once you've received Knowledge? Why go to video presentations or events? Doesn't he talk at these? Do you not try to find 'truth' in the words he speaks when he does? You're only trying to justify things he's said in the past, Chuck. In fact, you're going beyond justification. You're discounting what he's said in the past. You're saying there's no truth in what he's said. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 06:44:59 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Chuck Subject: Great meditation experiences Message: Do you really believe this? The real truth of the matter is that you are living your life within the limited, finite, confines of a mindless cult. As MJ said, 'Words are true but not truth. You can turn them 180 degrees at anytime.' How true it is. This is the one thing he is a master at--DECEIT! Think of it. You have donated your life to a person you don't know. You take his word as gospel. He said himself, 'I don't know what's going to happen. This is life. This is live.' In other words, he is making the stuff up as he goes along. He doesn't know more that you do. Probably, he know less. Remember how he used to talk about reincarnation, dah, dah, dah. Then he did a 180 about 10 years ago and said that we were finite and that after this life, we would never exist again. After that program, I came home and cried for two weeks. I should have quit the cult then. He told us there would be no payoff. My only joy would be coming from doing things I didn't want to do (meditation, satsang, and travel). Grovel at his feet if you must, but wouldn't it be better to stand on your own two feet as a free man? YOU ARE NOT FREE. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 07:33:32 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Gail/Chuck Subject: Great meditation experiences Message: YOU ARE NOT FREE. Spot on Gail. Finding your posts today inspiring and very articulate. Chuck, Bill's point re seperating the experience of k from gm is crucial. You can walk away from him, think of him as the most evil person on earth and still have that feeling of connecting to something special inside of yourself, while practicing the techniques. Your focus is what gives you the experience. It's by YOUR grace that you experience the joy/love/stress relief, whatever you want to call it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:00:31 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Everyone Subject: why hate the past? Message: Hi everyone. Been trying to examine myself lately - ie my conscience, for want of a better word. It struck me that I have done a lot of things in my life which later I have turned around and hated. I just wonder if this is truly the best way to move on. Maybe for myself I need to acknowledge that Maharaji is just a person like anyone else, a flawed human being. I didn't get everything I wanted from Knowledge but it did provide a 'sanctuary' for a few years. I was hurting very badly when I heard about Maharaji. The feeling that I was 'saved' or 'forgiven' was what I NEEDED to believe. Doesn't 'reality' work this way? Parents tell kids there is a father christmas - when they are older they 'find out' the 'truth' (in reality he doesn't exist - but in people's hearts as a symbol, he does). . Now that the 'veil has been ripped away' and I see that I couldn't really go to heaven by blocking off my eyes and ears - should I really hate and loudly trash someone who gave me hope for a while? That's my personal feeling - I know many of you didn't need the hope - you were young. But you know perhaps Maharaji has saved as many people from suicide as have committed it from feeling unworthy. If you look at it one way - all life is a big rip-off, isnt it? Where is the love that as kids we felt was our birthright? I am afraid that if I keep on focusing on hating Maharaji, I will grow more and more bitter and empty. Can anyone help with this? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:14:08 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Everyone Subject: why hate the past? - cont. Message: I realise it sounds like I am back-sliding. What I really want to know is - this 'betrayal' by Maharaji is just another level, isn't it. It's like realising one day your parents never really loved you. Not the way you wanted them to. It's like realising life is never going to give you what you dreamed of. You are not the person you want to be. etc. Yes - there's that big cliff of your own delusions/illusions to fall off, too. NOt just letting go of Maharaji. If I turn around and hate Maharaji, it's like - where do I stop. You see what I am getting at? In hating my illusions, I hate my own life. Do I have a real self at all? Seriously thinking of joining a convent. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:44:54 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Judith Subject: why hate the past? - cont. Message: In my experience Judith there is a big difference between righteous anger and hate. Righteous anger I see as VERY healthy. Hate as a form of loss of self. Ther's also the fact that he is still there getting away with it, still sucking people in. My mate who has only had knowledgs two months was just starting to get sucked into the first stages of devotion because the further he was going in he was beginning to think maybe there was nothing wrong with it, lack of self-esteem, 'I mean gm must know more than me.' He's going through all the historical stuff now and is appalled. How shall I put it, his position has changed just a touch! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:45:19 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV.Net To: Judith Subject: why hate the past? - cont. Message: Judith: Are you sure it was he who left you? Didn't you experience anything in meditation? And if not maybe you ought to give it another go. I have no doubt, he's still there and dreams can come true. And others we haven't even dreamt yet. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 12:09:28 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Ron Sherwood Subject: why hate the past? - cont. Message: Ron: SEEEEEEEE.... You even SPEAK of your experience as a DREAM! (e.g NOT REAL!) God, you don't even see the glimmers of TRUTH that escape your own mouth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:49:39 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Judith Subject: I don't hate Maharaji Message: Dear Judith - Just wanted you to know that I don't hate Maharaji. I was ambivalent about him for years until I found this site, then I got very angry when I found out that a premie friend of mine had killed himself, and when I read what had really happened in the ashrams. I still feel flashes of anger from time to time when some ex-premie relates a story of what was done to him by Maharaji or in Maharaji's name. Mostly I feel indifferent to him (my mom always used to say that the opposite of love is indifference), and sometimes I feel compassion and pity. I certainly wouldn't want to BE him. I didn't give up very much to be a premie. In fact, for the first two years or so, being a premie was probably much preferable to what I'd been doing before. I got some help and support from the other premies, but I give the credit to them and not to Maharaji. A lot of them were very good people. I don't see Maharaji as a very caring person, yet he attracted some very caring and loving people (and some not-so-great people too, of course!). I think anger towards Maharaji is a stage people need to go through to detach themselves from him. I am sure you know the steps of the grieving process: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. I don't think it's good to get stuck in anger towards Maharaji, but many people who post on here have a lot more anger to work through than I do (and maybe than you do). A friend of mine said today 'Who knows, maybe we do fight the forces of darkness every time we post on the forum.' I believe that might be true, although I don't believe that Maharaji himself is a 'force of darkness'. The belief system surrounding him may be, I don't know. Anyway, that's why I keep posting. Hang in there, girl! Your posts are great, and always thought-provoking. Love from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 23:03:11 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Judith Subject: I don't hate Maharaji either Message: I loved your line about joining the convent... Ronnie says give meditation another go. Gosh darn, I don't know about that. I think you are on the right track. Listen to your own advice. You are fine as you are. Life's a trip isn't it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:08:30 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: All Subject: I take it back, I do hate BM, Message: especially after what Gail said and reading the latest from that dick head Ron Sherwood. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:11:21 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Judith Subject: why hate the past? - cont. Message: I have not read the posts below me but I for one would encourage your present thought process . Of course others have their own pasts and their own angle on it all . But I agree with your sentiments and feel simular . We kind of get what we ask for . After all if we feel we've been duped then it was our own incapacity to realise that , that contributed . If Mr Z dupes me , then I should learn from this and move on . And realise that if it wasn't Mr Z it probably would have been someone else . Anyway I personally don't feel duped by Maharaji . But that only says something about me . And no-one can judge me for that without projecting their own bias onto the situation . It's great to move on , regardless of the past . I once knew a vietnamese man who had as a teenager watched his whole family slaughtered . His was wise , humble and kind . He typified a type of higher consciousness . It is possible . But not if one chooses to hold onto the anger and bitterness . I'm with you Judith ; in spirit , if you are trying to resolve and let go of the past and rather live for the present and future . Love the past . For the past is your unique journey . And then move on . Anyway , that is my perspective and believe me my past was often traumatic . Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 09:39:43 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: why hate the past? - cont. Message: We kind of get what we ask for . Keith, if we got what we asked for, we'd still be devoted to M and this forum wouldn't exist. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 13:17:17 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jerry Subject: WOW! Message: Jerry: Now THAT was a pearl-of-wisdom (AND TRUTH), if I ever heard one. You are a man of few words, aren't you???? ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 10:58:08 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: Cruel New Age belief Message: I think I can put this baby to rest using your own words, Keith. We kind of get what we ask for . I once knew a vietnamese man who had as a teenager watched his whole family slaughtered I guess this man kinda asked for it, huh. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 12:27:34 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Keith Subject: why hate the past? - cont. Message: Hello Keith: You may be right about the possibility of being duped by someone else, if we hadn't 'picked' M. I HAVE to give you that possibility because we were searching for something. But, it doesn't make it right for duping to occur in the first place. Just because other 'gurus' dupe people, doesn't mean that M had any right to do so. We can't wash away his part of the guilt that easily, right? It's like saying, 'well, tim burglarized a house, so it's ok for me to do it.' - As for anger: If you bottle up your true feelings (even 'anger') you are denying the truth of a situation. Keith, if you are pissed, you are pissed. It's that simple. 'Denying' the fact that you are pissed will not make it go away. The ONLY way to get rid of it is to work through it. YES, some form of self-control is necessary, but denial isn't the same thing as self-control. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 07:53:01 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Judith Subject: why hate the past? - cont. Message: >>>>Yes - there's that big cliff of your own delusions/illusions to fall off, too. IMO there are cliffs to fall off all along the way. The way I've gotten through is to let go and let fall. That which is 'true' continues by its very nature. When I got involved with Maharaji in 71, I had already fallen from some 'cliffs' -- in a sense one quite literally, I fell three stories landed on my head, and broke every bone in my skull. And I emotionally hurt pretty bad growing up as an adolescent. In 1969/70 I spent six months on the back wards of a mental institution, was beaten, raped and given heavy drugs. These difficult experiences, and many others since, were kinds of cliffs. There were patterns of belief, frames of reference that constituted my model of the world. For myself I needed to find meaning to my life. When the old ways no longer worked I had to re-examine what was true. This too, often felt difficult. In 1971 I was looking for a guru. I heard some premies speaking about Maharaj Ji and got involved. For me, the difficulties didn't stop. Through the seventies I lived in premie houses and ashrams, did some travelling and got married. I was there through many 'waves of interpretation' of just what Maharaji was all about. The 'heavy devotional' periods made me quite uncomfortable and I never really got into that sense that others professed of Maharaji being the 'Lord'. However I was open to that possibility in a subtle sense, for instance that his 'non-cosmic' image was part of his game and that I needed to get past my own cosmic structures. (I still believe this in a way -- although Maharaji does not seem to be an especially realized being, I sense a game in Universe afoot that expresses itself through *all* forms, including Maharaji being an apparent impostor). Actually my experiences with some premies were often difficult too. I couldn't relate to a lot of the folks. I felt very hurt and alone at times. However, I did meet quite a few folks who were very beautiful, wise and loving. Some of these folks remain my close friends today, after many years. Some remain premies and some not. I agree with the eastern teachings that all is illusion. Yet we also must honor the sense and apparent 'reality'. This has been a big lesson for me. There are worlds of illusion, worlds within worlds. Nothing is absolute. Even my readings of 'new physics' bears this out. What I experienced during my Near-Death, almost 30 years ago, remains for me the 'most real experience'. The realms of 'reason' and 'proof' and experiences consistent with material reality have their own coherence, yet are flawed and disconsonate with other realms that I have had first hand experience with. The current frame of reference that makes the most sense to me at this time is Tibetan Buddhism. Tibetan Buddhism - the diamond vehicle - is a very personal experience. There is room for my extreme experiences, contexts and profound love. I read lots of stories and have had beautiful spiritual encounters. Buddhism gives me meaning and context. In Buddhism, all is essentially 'empty' and void. Yet, a core to all the phenomena is profound Love and Wisdom. There's really no way to conceptualize this, its more an experience. I don't believe that reality can be conceptualized. There are signs and pointers, but we only get meaning from experience. Meaning is very important for me. I wish you well Judith. I honestly do. I hesitate responding here on this forum cause I don't want to get into heavy argument. However I read responses from people as yourself and want to offer my own feelings and perceptions in the hope that you might get even a little benefit or cheering up from the perceptions of another. Love, Bobby Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 13:28:04 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Bobby Subject: why hate the past? - cont. Message: Apart from believing that those experiences are almost certainly produced by mood enhancers and psychedelic drugs built into my own body system and that when I have synchronistic experiences I'm probably contacting quantum levels of reality, couldn't agree more. For myself I'm much closer in spirit to zen, taoism and shamanism than tibetan buddhism, although I have no desire for any formal route. Had more than my fill of that. In terms of explaining what I would previously have described as spiritual experiences I've been doing a lot of checking up on d.m.t and it's relationship with our brains. Latest stuff I've found is that it has strong contact with serotonin levels (hormonal mood enhancer among a long list of key effects) and the pineal gland. It is likely to produce when highly activated a powerful sense of belonging, connectedness to a deep source of meaning in the universe and experiences of magical moving patterns and light as well as a strong high pitched sound amongst a range of other peculiar experiences. What is also peculiar is that the body never develops tolerance to it, which with the fact that there are perfect fit receptor sites in the the brain implies that it is a key part of our biology. Suspicion also exists, although researrch is only just beginning, that because of it's hallucinatory nature, mixed with the non-tolerance factor (you do not have to take more and more of it to get the same experience) it's a good candidate for psychotropic and psychotic experiences. What is really funny is that as I'm writing this I'm getting increasing light patterns happening. Ah, the wonder of guru maharaj ji's grace. Unlike most people here, the techniques of knowledge (except for the early days) have always worked for me at a very profound level. After about 8 years of practicing knowledge I decided to see if I could get the experiences without the techniques, what a surprize (irony), not only was I having the experiences still, they were stronger. This is even more true now that I'm way away from anything to do with slimeball and the dominator culture with all the fear and worthlessness it inspires, which he so loves. I walked away from him because he never helped anyone to experience knowledge, his survival depends on it not working, or at the most, tiny amounts so he is needed and so that he can take the credit, not us and thus increase our dependency Maybe this should be in the journeys section, not here where it's likely to muddy the waters. Felt that I had to be honest, especially because of the openess, heart and honesty of the interactions here, but also for any lurkers who can't relate to all the people who had such little experience when practicing. If like mr delusion, ron sherwood and I suspect 'impressed with ron' you are having deep feelings, don't fool yourself, it's nothing to do with mr sweetey pie. Your using him as a focus when you are producing it yourself. The only thing he's likely to have done is give you the confidence to go further than you would have done because he's given you the security of belief/faith. If you walk away from slimeball and you ARE having experiences you value, they won't stop, unless he's really infected you with the fear that they will. Just another example of how he perverts our own experiences. Always remember when Bob Mishler died how so many people saw it as retribution from his holiness, even had doubts myself. Isn't that absolutely appalling. If it was true it would be even more appalling. But no, the thought never crossed anyones mind. This may not be applicable but it also goes out to gail, laura, eb and judith. I know I'm in a minority here but I also know people coming into knowledge who are open and experiencing something they value, which they are beginning to wonder whether coming from greaseball in some form or other. It's garbage. It's all you. For them, I throw in one of gm's own comments paraphrased since I don't have anything of his here. 'Knowledge isn't anything new. I'm just showing you something you already have.' For those of you who never had an experience of anything but pain around gm, I really apologize for any anger this causes. REALLY apologise. But I can't be a part of this site and have another Ron Sherwood visit and not feel I can really respond. Maybe I shoudn't be here at all if I'll create conflict and distraction from the support network and exposee of a devious bastard. That is the last thing I want. The work and reason for this site is TOO important. With love to you all, mr verbose. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 13:55:57 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: hamzen Subject: why hate the past? - cont. Message: Ham, Personally, I appreciate posts like yours. I am fascinated by the possibility of having these experiences of out-of-the-ordinary everyday consciousness. I never experienced much in meditation and nothing around BM, not even the group high. LSD sure did it for me, though. You know, the feeling of cosmic oneness and love for everyone and everything. I liked it. A lot. It didn't occur every time I tripped and in fact, when it stopped altogether, I stopped tripping. I am wonderingly lately what it would be like to trip again, maybe with some mushrooms. A old friend of mine began doing LSD and mushrooms again after a layoff of years (decades really) and he loves it. I would like to hear stories of yours or anyones experiences of expanded awareness (no matter what the cause). If people think it may not be appropriate for this Forum, perhaps we could discuss it on MMT? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 14:02:05 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Gerry Subject: An interesting note Message: Gerry: Considering your 'past,' as it were, you might want to read a book that is almost EXACTLY inline with what you just posted. It's called, 'Lazy Man's Guide to Enlightenment' by Thaddeus Golas. No, I'm not joking, it's a real book. He had some interesting thoughts on the whole 'enlightenment' thing and how a person gets there (including chemically induced). A really unique (in print, at least) take. Read it and let me know what you think. ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 14:16:28 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: An interesting note Message: Hi Mike, I'll check the book out. Maybe you could cheat a little and tell me a little more about it. The juicy parts. Re: enlightenment. Is there really such a thing? Do we have to 'get there?' Is a place, a state of mind, a myth? There definitely exists states of consciousness other than the mundane day to day one. LSD proves that. Even if it is chemically induced. My thinking is that all such states (including the mundane) are dependent on brain chemistry. Do (did) you ever go into an ''expanded'' or some how different state? I'm not knocking everyday awareness, just curious as ever. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 16:50:37 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Why, yes I did Message: Gerry: I thought the 'title' might get your attention....he he he. Sorry, I didn't respond right away, but work (yecch) calls. - Here's a 'juicy' quote from the book: Enlightenment doesn't care how you get there. (did that pique your interest?) I don't have it sitting in front of me, so I can't remember any other good ones, but it is definitely worth reading, I think. If you search on the web for 'thaddeus golas,' you will find many quotes out of the book, by the way. - As for my personal experiences: YES, I have been in the 'expanded' state of consciousness. It was a LONG time ago. While I was living and working at the Grand Canyon, I had a series of experiences that were totally 'awesome' and totally powerful. Sorry for the 'awesome thing,' but I can't think of a word to describe it. I HAD NOT heard of M, yet, so when I talk about meditation, I'm talking about the mantra/yantra thing. Anyway, while meditating on the opposite wall of the canyon (it had a very symetric feature) I seemed to be going 'deeper' than usual into the meditation. I started to experience a 'vibration' that began in the solar-plexus area and spread radially throughout my entire body. To say the vibration was pleasant would be an extreme understatement! It was wonderful. Once I felt (and started meditating on) the vibration, I started to see a light that got incredibly bright. It just kept getting brighter and brighter and brighter. I had always said that if I were actually looking at it with my eyes, I would be blind. It, literally, made the sun seem like a candle. I am being absolutely serious here, when I was immersed in that light, the only thought in my mind was 'father, why has it been so long?' I don't remember 'it' talking back or answering me in words. Anyway, this experience only lasted a few hours (by the clock) and when I was 'on my way back,' as it were, what looked like a HUGE drop of brilliant-red blood appeared to drop out of the light and onto the rock shelf that was in front of me (I could barely see the shelf because of all the light, but that's where it appeared to go) and I 'heard' a 'sizzling' sound when it hit. That 'sound' sent me 'elsewhere.' It was the most beautiful thing I had seen/heard. The light that's brighter than ten-million suns was at my finger-tips (figuratively, of course). For days afterwords, I could 'see' the light everywhere, in everything, sustaining everything. I'm sorry Gerry, my attempt at a desription doesn't do it any justice, at all. IT WAS POWERFUL! - I had two more experiences after this, in relatively short order. One happened while I was hiking the length of the Canyon and the other occurred in my house, up there. Each was MORE powerful than the one that came before. All occurred during meditation and they were all beautiful. At the time, the only negative aspect was that I couldn't 'merge.' I would fight it at the last possible moment. All the experiences had an after-glow period where I would clearly 'see' the light in everything/everyone. It was an amazing time. But then the 'HELL' happened. The experiences didn't come anymore and I felt SOOOOO separated from the light/vibration and so cold, alone. I would meditate and NOTHING! Anyway, that's when I started my 'search' in earnest. No kidding, I KNEW what I was searching for, I just needed someone to show me..... Guess who said all the right things and made all the right claims and knew all of the buzzwords and HOOKED ME LIKE A FISH? Three guesses and the first two don't count against you! - So, in a very shortened form, you know how it happened to me. Was it brain chemistry? Was it 'real'? I just don't know for sure, but I'm sure as hell more skeptical about the claims of 'gurus' to be able to show it to me. In fact, I'm pretty skeptical about all of it (big surprise, right?). I do tend to think of it as brain chemistry (but lovely brain chemistry, to be sure). After the M non-experience, could you blame me? Yup, that's right.... I experienced NOTHING from K meditation. Ten or eleven years of serious meditation and NOTHING! Premies can infer all they want from this story, but NOTHING is NOTHING! M promised and failed to keep ANY PART of that promise....Period. I remember that promise: It was in the 'Who is GMJ' book! In plain black and white lettering. I'm sure you've seen it, too. - Gerry, if you have any other q's, let me know. I'll answer them as best I can. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 17:09:10 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: Why, yes I did Message: Thanks, Mike I'm saving this one. And awesome is an appropriate word here! PS I hiked to the bottom of the canyon years again. I'm hoping to show it to Patty sometime soon. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 18:04:54 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Why, yes I did (off topic) Message: Gerry: Let me know whenever you consider doing it. I've hiked the entire length of the canyon and all known trails within it. I lived there for a few years and my job was to let hikers know current conditions and how/what 'to pack,' etc, etc. You'd be amazed at how many people (that should've known better) didn't bring enough water containers. They would think that the temperature in the bottom was the same as on the rim. Can you say heat stroke???? Sure, you can.... AMAZING!!! Not a bad job, eh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 18:52:38 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: glyng@techline.com To: Mike Subject: Why, yes I did (off topic) Message: What a GREAT job! When I hiked to the bottom, there was this idiot who was chewing reds like popcorn the whole way down. He kept discarding this expensive (and new) equipment and I kept picking it up. Needless to say, he came out in a helicopter and I never saw him again. E-mail me so I'll know how to get in contact. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 23:33:56 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Mike Subject: Why, yes I did Message: Hi Mike (and Gerry) I can really relate to this! I love hearing your story. I had an experience where I was totally high and full of love and absolutely sure of God's presence within and all around me. It happened in Nov. of 1971 when I took LSD. But it was unlike any LSD trip I'd had before. It also lasted a few days and everytime I talked about it or remembered it I felt a new rush of love and energy. I quickly learned some meditation techniques to try to sustain it longer when it began to fade, and then...like you: ' All the experiences had an after-glow period where I would clearly 'see' the light in everything/everyone. It was an amazing time. But then the 'HELL' happened. The experiences didn't come anymore and I felt SOOOOO separated from the light/vibration and so cold, alone. I would meditate and NOTHING! Anyway, that's when I started my 'search' in earnest. No kidding, I KNEW what I was searching for, I just needed someone to show me..... Guess who said all the right things and made all the right claims and knew all of the buzzwords and HOOKED ME LIKE A FISH? Three guesses and the first two don't count against you!' I felt extreme duality and sort of crazy. Then I saw M and got knowledge in the summer. I was never so high for so long again, though. Although I have had some fairly recent blissful experiences of shorter duration! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 11:31:04 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Carol Subject: Thanks Carol Message: Carol: See, even a new-age redneck (me) can have an 'experience'..... he he he. Seriously, thanks for the feedback. It's nice(?) to know that someone else experienced the 'hell' of separation. Man, that was a powerful inducement to find the 'answer.' Unfortunately, the guy who claimed to have the answer, was a charlatan. But, if there is a bright side to the whole thing it is the fact that while I was doing K, I was not feeling SO lonely. With the passage of time (spinning my K wheels, so to speak) the 'alone-feeling' became more distant and, thus, tolerable. Sometimes, I wonder about the 'reality' of the experiences I had, but I don't question them too much because they were GREAT. Boy did they have a 'hang-over,' though! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 16:34:10 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Carol Subject: Thanks, PT.II Message: Carol: BTW, in case you were ever wondering (in our earlier days) why I was SO intent on being initiated QUICKLY, now you know. I know that I was a mahatma-pest (and premie-pest, for that matter)to the max. Well, what would you expect? he he he. Now, too, you understand the true depth of my disappointment once I found out that M was a liar and could not, in fact, produce. Wandering around with a lovee-dovee look on my face (and tons of devotion) was no replacement for the aforementioned experiences. I'm pretty sure it wasn't in your case, either. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 20:06:24 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Mike/Bobby/Gerry/Carol Subject: LSD/Mike/Bobby/Gerry/Carol Message: Mike loved your trippy experience gremlinsinthe machine tonight meanI'velostapostthatstakendays towriteup fuckitfuckitfuckitfuckit 1point-Itoostartedsearchingafteracid andwaslostfornearlythreeyearsuntil..... youguessedit whatabunchofolehippiesweallare lovetoyouall ham Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 14:21:07 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Gerry Subject: why hate the past? - cont. Message: Hamzen and Gerry: I too have been fascinated over the years by psychedelics and their potential. I've done quite a bit, mostly in decades past. For what its worth I must say that my near-death experience was quantumly beyond anything I've ever done with psychelics. I've also had spontaneous spiritual experiences and experiences in meditation that eclipsed the very radical psychedelic experiences I have had. Awareness and chemicals affect each other strongly. Mind affects body, body affects mind. In my view they are interconnected in several dimensions. My NDE was experienced outside and beyond my body. That's my view and I'm entitled to it. I was in another dimension with a presence who knew me intimately. I don't care what people think or try to prove otherwise. This is my reality. Call it axiomatic. We all base our perceptions on unproven built-in axioms such as Euclidian geometry, multiple universes, single universe, the role of the observer, objectivity, etc. I think the perceptions of the degree of chemical linking to altered states of awareness is fascinating, but as far as I can see, awareness is not dependent solely on chemicals. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 14:33:29 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Bobby Subject: why hate the past? - cont. Message: Hi Bobby, You never have to defend your right to express your reality to me. I explicitly support your right to your views and their expression. And I respect you immensely for your courage and tenacity in the face of (multiple) hardships. Now... I think you may be on to something here. Awareness may possibly exist apart from the physical. I don't have personal knowledge of this, but the anecdotal ''evidence'' for this is overwhelming, as it is for UFO sightings and related experiences. BTW, I just finished reading The Secret School by Whitley Strieber. An eerie and fascinating memoir of his childhood and more. What was your take? Oops maybe we should take this over to MMT, I am feeling a little ''warmth'' coming my way already... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 14:59:57 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Gerry Subject: drugs and altered states Message: Yes Gerry, as I said to you I believe by email a few months ago, I had some amazing and profound experiences reading The Secret School. I had some of the same experiences that Strieber speaks of. Also interesting Real Audio interviews with Strieber are available on his website for download. http://www.strieber.com/ Another interesting site containing Strieber and other UFO interviews: http://www.aim.tj/JAM/ufo/seancii.htm --------------------------------------------------- Drugs work radically differently with different people. They are by no means totally predictable. The same drug has also worked radically differently for *me* at different times. Set and setting are important. These are awareness and environmental factors. Another thing I find very interesting is my reaction to the low-dose chemo I've taken for cancer. For much of the 'trip' I have the very opposite reaction that most people have taking the same drugs. I had more 'energy' (though yin-deficient) and had greater appetite. Yes, I think we should probably move this conversation over to MMT. It's just that there are some interesting posts here and this is a cleaner interface. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 12:48:14 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Gerry Subject: why hate the past? - cont. Message: Gerry do you have any sources for 'but the anecdotal ''evidence'' for this is overwhelming,'. I used to suspect that this was the case but now I suspect that out of body experiences, the same as for visualising events elsewhere, if they are actual events, are likely to be quantum connected in some way and even if the person is out there, they are still connected to their own body. Surely if something was to happen to them physically during the experience it would quickly finish? I've read of numerous reports of out of body experiences where something has happened to pull people back in, suggesting a state of connectivity. While tripping with some mates in 1970 one of our group had an out of body experience for almost eight hours. He was one of the most rational people I've known and calmly accepted the experience but now not having done any psychedelics since 1971, leading a professional life since 74 & now a headmaster he can't even remember the experience. Another friend who took mushrooms for the first time in 92 had an experience of being communicated to by those strange alien type munchkin figures beloved of dmt trips, communicating to him about love and sending him loads of it as well. He also cannot now remember this experience. This happened before he had read any of Terence Mckenna's or related literature and before I knew of these alien munchkins. We had never discussed such things and it completely freaked him when it happened. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 15:22:33 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: hamzen Subject: I hate McKenna Message: Ah, but I used to love him. What I hate about him is his rapturous appetite for authoritative mystique. His intentional use of arcane words, rare authorities and overall blarney used to impress me like hell. Now I think he's just fucking with his head and those of his readers and audiences. No wonder his wife kicked him out. I'm into really trying to understand life but I think Terrance is just into telling stories. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 15:49:31 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Jim Subject: I hate McKenna Message: I got about half way through one of his books Jim, but I kept getting headaches all the time. Something didn't seem right there. I didn't feel he was rigorous enough. When you get into that territory I think you've got to leave more space for question marks. My mate loved his stuff for a while. Now completely away from all of that. Also his angle of embracing the rave scene was a bit shallow and serious. Leary's approach to the music seemed better because there was more of the Irish leprechaun laughter about it. I've got one early track from the Sheffield bleep scene done with Leary which is wicked. Intoning over and over, 'think for yourself, question authority'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 16:31:45 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Gerry Subject: tryptamines Message: Thank god for that. Didn't think anyone would appreciate my post. Expected everyone to react or ignore, as obviously from past experience did Bobby. I'd rather do it here because I feel it's a weakness of this site at present. Covering all the angles etc. I know some exes who don't post and get involved here because of the absence of topics like this. I suspect this is what Judith's been getting at or maybe it's just the anger and no lightness. If the response is mostly negative then definitely MMT is the place. But I don't like the visual layout there and I'm getting really irritated by it's ghettoness This stuff is a major part of my life. Feel like I've seperated any brainwashing out of the topic, probably fooling myself that I'm completely clear, not easy when you're having regular daily experiences from the same territory as gm was drip feeding. Suspect it's taken me a lot longer to clarify than someone who didn't experience much around knowledge, even though it meant I was pulling further and further away for years, probably before I would have done otherwise. Like you I didn't take any psychedelics for a long time,over twenty years before having a pretty strong burst on psylocybin mushrooms for three years. Just had a three year break but I'm feeling a strong urge to start again at the end of this month. One of the interesting things about mushrooms/lsd is that they hit very similar areas as the dmt sites in the brain, but are not perfect fits which is why the comedown is longer, as is the takeup, whereas dmt hits almost instantaneously. Never taken dmt by the way, not sure I could handle it. My experiences on psylocybin mushrooms out in a natural environment have been very moving, also certainly explained house music to my neural network. I was going to free festivals with powerful sound systems for a while. If you do Gerry, I'm sure you'll have a great time. But yeah I would REALLY like to follow this topic up. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 16:44:11 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: hamzen Subject: tryptamines Message: >>> Expected everyone to react or ignore, as obviously from past experience did Bobby. Sorry you think I reacted or ignored you. I didn't get that. A good read is Shamanism and Psychedelics, done within the last couple years. That may not be the exact title. I can get the title if interested. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 18:06:40 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Bobby Subject: tryptamines Message: I wasn't referring to our communication, Bobby, but the general topic area of your response to Judith -'I hesitate responding here on this forum cause I don't want to get into heavy argument'. I get the feeling that it is a topic area where self-censuring takes place here because of the reasons I've stated elsewhere but also because of nervousness/whatever, which is what I thought you were referring to. I've only been around a month or two and thought that was why the mmt forum was set up in the first place. Then I'm thinking what a hypocrite I am, remembering back to my responses re god with Sir D. If you're reading Sir D, apologies if I was over the top. To digress slightly, the few people I was close to all the years, all had really strong experiences from meditation. I was probably hoping for more discussion around this topic on the site, to help me de-mythologize as much as provide support for premies wanting to seperate knowledge from mr beautiful-puke and who were ready for turning. Although I'd felt pretty certain it was down to set & setting, interaction both ways in the self(attitude)/brain dialogue, all the stuff I'd read was from a psychological angle, I don't know enough about this. My knowledge is piecemeal. I suppose I thought there would be more detailed info available here. Then on arriving I find so much anger, so few discussions re above. Having somehow by-passed the effects of mr sharp suits and his hellfire and brimstones period, not been in the ashrams, mostly followed what I felt when it conflicted with the words coming from his lordship and seeing and reading peoples testimonies and the appalling background material, most of which I was completely unaware of, I assumed that this wasn't the place for such discussion. Coming across quite a few sarky quotes re premies who didn't go the whole hog but stayed outside and picked and chose I was wary of touching on the topic area. Also my understanding of bio-chemistry you could fit on a napkin. Again same argument. None really on mmt. That's what happens when you spend all those years in the flow! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 12:53:39 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Bobby Subject: tryptamines Message: 'A good read is Shamanism and Psychedelics, done within the last couple years'. Would be very interested in the title, Bobby. Apologies for the late response. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 13:48:15 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: hamzen Subject: tryptamines Message: *Psychedelic Shamanism* by Jim DeKorne. The book is available through Amazon. If you like you can search (and order) through my site. Here's the link to my 'virtual bookstore'. http://www.well.com/user/bobby/resources/bobbybooks.html btw - DMT natural sources include Ayajuasca, the South American plant used commonly by indigenous shamans and Phalaris Grass, a common grass that grows worldwide. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 15:53:22 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: hamzen Subject: why hate the past? - cont. Message: Thanks for your post and the honesty in it, hamzen. You ARE a part of the support network, experiences with K and all. You're the only person I've met so far who isn't trying to talk over my head, because you've had the 'experience' and I haven't. You're not afraid to come out from behind that wall and meet me person to person; a terrifying prospect, apparently, for premies. As a result, you have my respect, something no premie I've met, so far, has gained. But as for your musical tastes, I got a chance to hear a couple of cuts from Photek's 'Form and Function'. Sorry, Ham, you can keep it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 16:54:17 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Jerry Subject: why hate the past? - cont. Message: Appreciated Jerry. I would much rather do it on this forum because otherwise it feels like denial, which we all know too much about from elsewhere. Also as Bobby said above, the visuals here are miles more pleasant and for myself this feels more like my site than mmt. But I haven't been around for long and didn't want to seriously aggravate/distract. Re Photek, shame. If you've never been into breakbeat stuff it might be a bit much without at least a few chemicals floating around your bloodstream. I've never heard 'Form and Function', is it a 12' or album? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 17:25:37 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: hamzen Subject: why hate the past? - cont. Message: It's an album, a CD. I think it just came out, recently. I listened to a couple of cuts from it at a listening station in a music store. As for posting here or at MMT, there's no rule that you can't post here on certain subjects. It's just that, if you do, there's no rules against 'flaming' if somebody has something nasty to say in response to what you post. But I think you're the kind of person who could stand a little scorching if somebody had a mind to flame anything you had to say. So feel free to post whatever you want, here, whenever you want. At MMT, though, there's no flaming allowed. To some people, that's important. That's why they post there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 20:56:06 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Bobby Subject: why hate the past? - cont. Message: Buddhism gives me meaning and context. In Buddhism, all is essentially 'empty' and void. Yet, a core to all the phenomena is profound Love and Wisdom. There's really no way to conceptualize this, its more an experience. I don't believe that reality can be conceptualized. There are signs and pointers, but we only get meaning from experience. Meaning is very important for me. Dear Bobby, thankyou so much for sharing this with me. I really appreciate it and I really like what you said. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 11:30:02 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judith Subject: don't be stupid Message: this 'betrayal' by Maharaji is just another level, isn't it. It's like realising one day your parents never really loved you. Judith, This is ridiculous. My parents loved me a lot more than Maharaji and they asked a lot less. I have to agree with Gail's post, I'm afraid. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 19:17:19 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim you haven't changed Message: Dear Jim We've had the same old disagreement so many times in the past I don't know why you bother commenting. Put it this way: the intention of my post was to try and open some new ground. My intention is to actually get well; move on; grow; make it count; make it worth something. I get the feeling that if I looked at this Forum in 5 years, and you still have the same attitude, your posts will be identical as to now. Not very encouraging for people trying to leave a CULT where there is no room for their own thoughts, their own ideas, no room for anything but what the MASTER believes. Tell me; why do you so often find it necessary to squash every opinion voiced here which does not match your own? Has it ever occured to you that some people don't want to be like you, and don't see your model of 'recovery' as where they want to end up? Maybe if you stuck to saying what you think, and left others free to say what they think, there will be less of this destructive energy of dog eat dog which is rampant at times on this Forum. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 00:13:59 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judith Subject: I said something about change? Message: Judith, What's with all this 'recovery' talk? Judith, I'm not sure that you're 'sick', so I can't really understand what you mean by getting 'well'. Nor do I understand what you mean by you were trying to open some new ground. The fact is you were starting to say some dumb shit -- that Maharaji's no more a rip-off than anything else in life, that Maharaji's betrayal was like our parents' -- and I called you on it. And waht's this nonsense about saying what I think? I just did and you've got a problem with it. Oh I see: say what I think, let others say what they think and don't discuss what the other says. Is that it? Judith, when will you learn? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 12:29:30 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: bobby2@mindspring.com To: Judith Subject: Jim you haven't changed Message: Judith, here's my email address. Please contact me if interested in further exchange, or give me your email and I will contact you. I don't post a lot to this forum as I have in the past. I enjoy communicating in open and personally meaningful dialogue. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 23:24:57 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Judith Subject: why hate the past? Message: I have wasted a lot more time and cash than you have. I am old and angry. It's hard to pick myself up and get going in a new direction (what is the direction?). It's painful to think I have been wasting my time for so long. It's painful to realize that I am not the smart person I thought I was. Children, illiterates (almost everyone) could see he was a fake, but not me. Instead of living my life the way I wanted to, I have done many things against my will. I have meditated against my will. I have gone to satsang and video events against my will. I have travelled extensively against my will (and may I add that I have seen nothing except the satsang halls and hotel rooms of the places I have been). I have lived my life through the eyes of the MASTER. I have been overwhelmed with guilt and inadequacy for years (one can never do enough, give enough, love enough, kiss his feet enough, dah, dah, dah--you know the drill). You remind me of an amateur actress (born in August) with a keen sense for the dramatic. If I had been involved with GOOMERAGEE'S CULT for as little time as you were, I would consider myself lucky. You missed the really heavy, prolonged, mind-wrecking horrors of the trip. Why don't you send GOOMER a thank you note if you're so grateful. You got a mild case of cylmidea (spelling). I've had syphillis for 24 years. I'm afraid my brain is just about rotted out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |