Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 27 | |
From: Oct 20, 1998 |
To: Nov 4, 1998 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 15:23:34 (EST)
From: d@vid Email: ds@cpsds.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: Confused, as ever... Message: Forgive my complete ignorance, but is the jean-michael who seems to have a pro-BigM site sponsored by 'Snack-delights' over at GeoCities, the same guy who used to be one-of-us, or have I missed the plot entirely? Also... I'm trying to find a web site with info on non-church ceromonies for christenings, marriages and burials. If anyone would know where to start looking, I'd be very grateful. Thanks, David Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 15:44:04 (EST)
From: Jean-Michael Email: None To: d@vid Subject: Pro SHRI MAHARAJI !! Message: We're not speaking about the same maharaji! I'm trying to prove that the BM betrayed his guru, that His guru betrayed His, etc ... Everyone seems to be into cheating on everyone .... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 16:10:14 (EST)
From: d@vid Email: None To: Jean-Michael Subject: Pro SHRI MAHARAJI !! Message: My apologies Jean Michael... a combination of wine and age is taking its toll. I will spend some time exploring what looks a well-crafted site. Sorry... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 02:00:51 (EST)
From: Bruce Email: freedom@universal.net.au To: Jean-Michael Subject: Pro SHRI MAHARAJI !! Message: Jean, Michel, Perhaps you'll be horrified to know that d@vid has expressed what most unbiased people would think, that is, that the writings of Shri Hans actually enhance M's standing and authenticity. Keep up the good work! I've spent a lot of time around M over the past 20 years, and very recently at Amaroo. He hasn't changed what is important. His presence is still inspiring, joyfull, fun, enlightening. He is still devoted to his master and to fulfilling his master's work, which he is doing very well, despite opposition from people whom he trusted. Like yourself. You say 'everyone seems to be cheating on everyone'. Its the mirror phenomenom. A Master just holds a mirror up to people. You see M betraying his master, and Shri Hans betraying his master because you are betraying your master. Its perfectly obvious really. Bruce Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 02:55:59 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Bruce Subject: The power of belief Message: Hello bruce, I know how it is when you are a believer. It looks like smart stuff when you are already in that camp. But take a look at your own life, just like mine, almost no one shares your view of prem rawat and when they look at that stuff by charanand and the old dead rawat, they dont see it how you do. To a certain group of Iranians, the dead ayatollah was real brilliant, but I read his book and it is just amazingly stupid. Thats the dif. Jean Michel is so far the only former instructor that has shown the integrity to reveal truth. I agree that Jean Michel should write more commentary in each section of his web site. To help the gulllible see. Thanks for pointing that out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 03:50:39 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: bill Subject: The power of bruce Message: post for you down below Bruce, called, -Like Bruce- Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 03:52:28 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: bill Subject: The power of belief Message: Hi Bill, Thanks for your comments! I've already thought about the idea of making comments on the various issues I'm bringing up in 'my' site. I don't feel it necessary for the moment, I think the whole issue is OBVIOUS if you're trying to use your mind, like I did when I left the cult, like so many people do when they approach m & k. I've received comments from people like aspirants and newly interested people: reading some of the stuff and some of the posts on the forum was enough for them. These people had been a bit seduced by the 'new' presentation of m & k, but no need to say they've immediately understood what's behind it when reading this. They are still sane! No need to comment on Bruce's statements! He doesn't say anything about the Radhasoami/Sant Mat background by the way ... Nor does he say anything on the old mahatmas gibberish, the use of scriptures to back up m & k, etc And that 'betrayal' thesis is laughable: did m say he was the Lord, yes or no? Did the BM try to advocate and show an impeccable ethic? (I've been part of numerous meetings with him and I know it from my own experience). Does he (and did he) really behave accordingly himself, or is he merely asking his followers to do things he never does and never did? Yes or no? I believed in a liar, there is no betrayal in saying I've been abused and fooled! That's sanity! I would be ashamed not doing so. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 04:20:15 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: The power of belief Message: The thought I had after reading your post is that 'his mother would be proud of him' Maybe that is an american saying and not used in France, but the type of guy you have turned out to be is very impressive. Also, when Brian posts sometimes I feel relieved to see the stuff he is made of. Must be some 'grace' to being a webmaster of the X world. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 04:37:07 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: bb Subject: The power of belief Message: Hi bb, Your comments again strike something in me. There is definitely something very true in this: I have no shame anymore telling anybody about my past. People in fact get very interested in hearing that kind of first hand testimony, and we usually have very long discussions, leading to lots of interesting issues everybody has to face. I've invited many people to read this site and mine, and they said they're very impressed, and that these sites are amongst the best they know of (beside very professional sites like Microsoft etc). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 10:23:10 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: bb Subject: The power of belief Message: Dear Satgroovey, Just wanted to say that your post above about JM and Brian is exactly how I feel as well. Thanks for saying it. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 11:47:16 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: bb Subject: The power of belief Message: Maybe that is an american saying and not used in France, We have the same expression in French, and it means exactly the same thing! but the type of guy you have turned out to be is very impressive. I've heard what you said. What maybe makes the difference is that I've DONE something, and I'm still DOING something that could be considered 'against' someone we thought was/is supposedly almighty, all-knowing etc Sort of challenging Him! What's probably alive somewhere in us all is that the BM might be what we say he is NOT .... and that somehow some are more courageous than others, ..... something like that, you see what I mean. That's maybe the essential part of our programming. And maybe one way to de-program us is having that kind of attitude. I admit that doing all the things I've done since I've decided to leave the cult have helped me to convince myself that none of the things I believed so much in are true: the Lard has NO power AT ALL , beside the ability to convince his premies he is The Almighty One. the Lard has NO personnal ethic AT ALL, he is a liar and cheats on everybody including his own family what he calls 'Knowledge' does NOT exist I have as much value as anybody, and the BM & his 'teaching' don't represent ANYTHING enjoyable he is the biggest prick I ever met, he is not the only one charlatan obviously, and I have no shame admitting I've been fooled and abused by this ridiculous Indian businessman I won't shut my mouth as long as he won't be retired or out of his business this guy is the most obnoxious person I personnaly know. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 04:49:34 (EST)
From: jethro Email: None To: Bruce Subject: Pro SHRI MAHARAJI !! Message: 'Perhaps you'll be horrified to know that d@vid has expressed what most unbiased people would think, that is, that the writings of Shri Hans actually enhance M's standing and authenticity.' Sure it shows what prempal believes about himself. 'Krishna came with 14 divine powers, Ram with 16 divine powers and I come with all 64 divine powers' hansji. 'Keep up the good work!' yes it is good work in that it allows people to make informed decisions...which aspirants are not given. 'I've spent a lot of time around M over the past 20 years, and very recently at Amaroo. He hasn't changed what is important.' That means you have become stagnant. ' His presence is still inspiring, joyfull, fun, enlightening.' Sure, then ,maybe you or him would like to explain why so many ashram premies were thrown out on the street with nothing after years of giving their all.....or why he doesn't even address concerns over allegations against his official representatives. 'He is still devoted to his master and to fulfilling his master's work, which he is doing very well, despite opposition from people whom he trusted. Like yourself.' This is the rap of all 'masters'. At least hansji spoke to the common people. Also one of the premie lines when I came to k was that it has no value having a dead master....we need a living master. Could you explain why prempal is the only one allowed to have a dead master? 'Its the mirror phenomenom. A Master just holds a mirror up to people. ' A good devotee's answer which I myself would have given at one time. In fact it's a copout in that anything can be a mirror ...especially if you believe in the omnipresence of the True Master.....or don't you? 'You see M betraying his master, and Shri Hans betraying his master because you are betraying your master.' What makes a person someone's master? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 07:41:10 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Bruce Subject: Pro SHRI MAHARAJI !! Message: Just because Jean-Michel isn't overtly 'negative' or 'sour' on his website, does not make it a pro-Maharaji website. The information there is very informative for people trying to make up their minds about M. It's very well done. If you think the half-truths and contradictions by Maharaji and the Holy Family exposed there strengthen your master's position, well fine. You are too far gone. Enjoy! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 03:34:37 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Bruce Subject: Pro SHRI MAHARAJI !! Message: Its the mirror phenomenom. A Master just holds a mirror up to people. This mirror business is nonsense, Bruce. Maharaji's Maharaji, you're you, and I'm me. Isn't that what Maharaji's supposed to be teaching you, who YOU are? I don't think you've learned very much if you only see yourself as a reflection of him. Maybe when you've left the cult you'll know better. Nobody holds up a mirror to anybody. Be yourself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 02:09:20 (EST)
From: wondering why Email: None To: Jean-Michael Subject: Pro SHRI MAHARAJI !! Message: my last post here did not appear Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 12:31:54 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: wondering why Subject: Too long? Message: WW: Sometimes the length of a post will prevent its inclusion. If you are trying to do a long post, try cutting it in half and posting each separately. ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 15:45:32 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: d@vid Subject: Confused, as ever... Message: Dear D@vid: Jean-Michel is still anti-MJ. He is simply letting the world know what MJ and others used to say. As you know, new indoctrinees are never told about MJ's status as Lord of the Universe. Jean-Michel's site make this sort of thing pretty clear. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 20:53:31 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Gail Subject: Confused, so many Lords..... Message: My problem really is that I don't know anymore who REALLY is the Lord: which one? That's a big source of confusion! Please, Maharaji, heeeeeeeeeeelp me ! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 21:06:14 (EST)
From: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Confused, so many Lords..... Message: I would have thought that was obvious by now. Perhaps you don't get the Teletubbies in France. The Lord is not Satpal or Prempal or their Father. The Lord is Tinky Winky, Lord of all the Teletubbies. How fortunate are we that he walks those sacred hills of Teletubbieland. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 22:52:51 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Subject: All hail Tinkie Winkie Message: My daughter's guinea pig is named Tinkie Winkie. I have seen the Lord and the Lord is nigh. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 06:45:12 (EST)
From: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Email: Vicarage@toytown.com To: Helen Subject: All hail Tinkie Winkie Message: Alleluia and praise be, sister! You are the most fortunate amongst women. May Tinkie Winkie bless you an hundredfold. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 03:42:49 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Subject: Confused, so many Lords..... Message: I've seen this Teletubbieland show, once. I think it's the lamest thing I've ever seen. If I had kids, I would forbid them to watch it for fear they'd get brain damage from it. Maybe if I had a lobotomy it would appeal to me more, I don't know. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 09:39:37 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Teletubbies (ot) Message: I agree with you that show is very, um, different. Those teletubbies are whacked in the head. But children love that show, my six year old even. Go figure. The show is supposed to be for toddlers and so it is very simple. A little Telletubbie came to my door last night (for Hallo'ween) and I must admit she was very cute. As a friend of mine says, about the show 'Barney', 'it's DEFINITELY not for adults.' I understand, though, that Teletubbies has quite the cult following among college students. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 10:35:24 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Helen Subject: Teletubbies (ot) Message: I can see the show for toddlers. It's a nice gentle sort of introduction to the world of television, and I can even see where six year olds would enjoy it. But I think adults who like it are just being silly. JW once informed us that the majority of viewers, who like this show, are comprised of one year olds and crystal meth addicts. I believe it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 13:35:19 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jerry Subject: HA! (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 20:55:04 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: d@vid Subject: Confused, as ever... Message: You might like to try The British Humanist Association as I know they do ceremonies. I did attend a Humanist funeral a while back although I wasn't too impressed. It did seem too much like an end of school report of my dear deceased sister and didn't reflect her true character. Also there didn't seem to be much scope for expression of emotion which is important at such gatherings. But I've just seen the one example. Perhaps others are better. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 09:19:10 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Language of the heart Message: Astrid Rush, in 'Wit And Wisdom', quotes Maharaji as saying: The language of the heart, even the deaf can hear. How profound... not. Why do premies think that they've got the inner scoop on the 'language of the heart', like the rest of humanity knows nothing about it? How pompous. Astrid's also the dear who wrote this in 'Expressions': Your eyes are the ocean My soul is the sea We're one and the same now What is you, is now me Freaky. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 10:00:14 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Language of the heart Message: Jerry: Also, she is IMPLYING (there, see I do know how to use the word... he he he) that she has 'merged' with our dear lard. If she isn't a fully-realized soul, then she is parroting something she has heard 'can' happen. In other words: LIAR! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 10:50:42 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: Language of the heart Message: Liar! Mike, That was my initial reaction, too. Glad you said it first. Of course, the entire site is based on a lie, that there is something people can do to reach the mythical state of enlightenment. And the site's purpose is to attract or convince new people to join the cult. Misery loves company, I guess. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 20:34:44 (EST)
From: Laura Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Language of the heart Message: Dear Gerry, You wrote, 'that there is something people can do to reach the mythical state of enlightenment.' Why is this state mythical, because we don't know anyone we would call enlightened? I don't want to fool myself anymore but there is a part of me that still wants to be enlightened. A part of me that believes in things holy. What these holy things are I don't know but I would like to have them in my life if they exist. I know that GM and knowledge is definitely not the way. I don't believe in religion. I don't want to spend the rest of my life searching for a Way or a path. The only way I know to go inside is K and I don't trust it and it never really 'got me anywhere.' What to do? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 23:37:22 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Laura Subject: I think you're S.O.L. Message: Here I am, four months on the LAM (life after MJ to coin someone else's phrase). I'm still waiting for a postcard or some sort of revelation from god. I think I may be waiting for the rest of my life. Good luck finding something to fill the void. I hope you do. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 03:48:22 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Laura Subject: Like Bruce! Message: You can love your life and the folks in it. I hang out with all kinds and types and heard a lot of views on life this year. The fact that there are so many different approaches and beliefs and subdivided groups indicates that if there is a god, or a self concious larger force, it is very loose about how we view it and talk to it, or dont. The intent here is not to produce some human version of ants or bees. Because we can't by design get along very well and we have a strong tendency to do things our own way. Tyrants come in all flavors and they want to dominate us to see things their way and all live up to and live according to thier dictates. rawat is another tyrant. I have a few christian friends and they belong to dif. groups and have dif. views. One, wants me to join his group called 'mighty men of god'! But I suppose if I go, the 'mighty men' will have to take some action to feel used by god and I can only imagine the long list of to-do's that a 'mighty man' must do. A lot of tyrants can't pull off thier own religion, so they become the definers of some religion they grew up with. That way they get to direct others with the authority of 'god', they are 'serving god' doing 'god's work' Of course most are not tyrants at all, just believers. Like Bruce! Stationed in amaroo. The 'mighty man of god' helping to set up the kingdom of god! A lot of dads and moms also get into the dominant tyrant thing with thier kids because they are too lazy to have patience and respect consistantly. Tyrants large and small are immature and selfish, and insecure without thier supporting reasons for why they are 'the boss'- as rawat likes to be referred to. rawat will be a player in the coming years and the lesson will be that tyrants are to be avoided because they are liers. The coming year 2000 disaster will give rawat another second wind and he will come marching along as the great savior. This website may not even be available for a while. Senators Bennett, Dodd, Moniyhan, Nunn, have said we are in for it and they are right. I say the crowned lord of the millenium universe is not through with his attempts to ensnare and enslave under the banner of truth. Life is wacky enough to allow him to foist his radiant glory on the larger world before he is through. Wont zealots like bruce be happy to proclaim his coming. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 11:02:41 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Language of the heart Message: I once thought the same I now see it's so lame I feel so ashamed My illusions have been maimed The trip is a sham Knowledge is a scam He's a criminal on the lam I wished him to be damned This poem really sucks But hey it's not the words So i'll finish this up Maharaj ji is a turd Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 15:55:10 (EST)
From: larkin Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Helen Subject: ok, the job's all yours... Message: Succinct, eloquent, true. Thanks :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 14:40:40 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: larkin Subject: Thanks Message: Thanks, Larkin. You wouldn't be related to the famous poet, Philip Larkin, would you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 19:35:25 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Helen Subject: A question Message: Hi Helen - Larkin is one of the poet laureates of the ex-premie site (room for many more - like you). He rhymes AND scans, and still sticks to the subject. RT is another - check his Journey's entry for an example. Literarily yours from Katie Oops and PS. What I wanted to ask you is if you know the name of that Philip Larking about 'They fuck you up'. I've read it several times, but when I try and find it to show it to someone, I draw a blank. Any help appreciated, including the text of the poem [I think it's relevant here, but you can always put (OT) after the heading]. Thanks! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 21:14:17 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Katie Subject: A question Message: A buddy in my book club has that Larkin poem. I will get it next weekend and post it to you. DId RT write the song to the tune of The Beverly Hillbillies theme song? That was a hoot and a half, brilliant. Are you a poetry/literature lover, Katie? If so, when you were practicing K did you feel guilty reading novels and other non-spiritual stuff? I sure did. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 16:43:20 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Helen Subject: to Helen Message: Hi Helen - I love poetry and fiction. Since I've been posting on here, I've realized I have a suprising lot of poetry (including the Bible) by heart. I have a harder time reading non-fiction, but do try to read some of Nigel's and Jim's recommendations. I do remember feeling somewhat guilty about reading while I was a premie, but I am just one of those people that HAS to read. I think I solved it by reading science fiction and fantasy - things like that. Also some supposedly 'spiritual' books (like 'Even Cowgirls Get the Blues' - ha ha! That's a seditious anti-Maharaji book if I ever read one!). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 16:07:36 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Katie Subject: The Magic of Books Message: Katie, Rediscovering reading (reading non-spiritual stuff) was one of the things that helped my mind develop a new framework as I was wending away from the Guru trip. I decided to give the whole spiritual quest a rest and to just start reading again. My imagination (long neglected) came back and I started allowing my mind to stretch farther and farther. My dreams became more vivid, my life opened up wider and wider! Then I started to see that my mind wasn't the horrible demon after all! I realized I was a good person and that my mind was my friend. I have gotten some writing--curricula, articles-- published in the past few years and attempted wtg a fantasy novel for young adults. The theme of the novel has to do with the seduction of bliss trips vs. facing and embracing life here on earth. Attempting a novel has really made me appreciate reading so much more. I read good paragraphs over and over, realizing that I am beholding a gem distilled from the writer's blood and heart and hard work. How many years go into a good book, and then I read it and toss it aside. WHen we hold a book, we really do hold in our hands a living gem. Books inform me, and sometimes have saved me, in the sense of keeping me going, like music (like The Dead did for you in your Journey story). Keep on readin'! Tell me your favorite books if you get a chance. Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 21:17:30 (EST)
From: Larkin Email: the usual To: Katie/Helen Subject: This be the verse Message: Thanks Helen and Katie, They fuck you up, your mum and dad They may not mean to but they do They give you all the faults they had Then add some others, just for you...' But they in turn were fucked up...' I can't remember any more off the top of my head, but the poem is called 'This be the verse', as I guess Larkin had anticipated the excitement his (once only) use of the word 'fuck' would cause, and was trying to help book browsers of the future look it up. Maybe he should have just called it 'They fuck you up'? I sort of borrowed Larkin's name, but also associated it with larkin' around, lurkin' and barkin' mad. I'm certainly no relation, more's the pity. It only got started when I wrote my 'lord is but a fraud' epic and signed it 'Larkin'. Thereafter I got stuck with the name, since I realised the typical scientific and serious Nigel-type posts weren't to everyone's liking, but they liked the Larkin ones. Can't be bothered with mainting the split-self anymore, but will probably carry on using the two names for convenience to differentiate 'poem' from 'shite'. Larkin was apparently a grumpy old sod who worked at Hull University as librarian for a couple of centuries and published poems in his spare time. I read 'The Whitsun Weddings' and thought he was brilliant. |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 21:42:35 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Larkin Subject: The poem Message: All right, Larkin! You had the poem partially memorized, COOL! So are you and Nigel one and the same then? I have to confess I have posted as Worf the Clingon and Dr. Ruth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 22:27:13 (EST)
From: Larkin Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Dr Ruth Subject: The poem Message: Yup, I'm afraid so, Helen. Nigel is Larkin and occasionally Ena Blighter. So you're Dr Ruth? Couldn't you go and sort out Wildman's problems... :) BTW: Philip Larkin is great, but my favourites are Dylan Thomas (especially the prose stuff) and Auden (esp. The Shield of Achilles). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 10:42:11 (EST)
From: Dylan Email: None To: Larkin Subject: The poem Message: 'The force that through the green fuse drives the flower also drives my soul' but its not the 'knowledge' that's for sure. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 19:16:31 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Larkin, et al Subject: The poem (ot) Message: I will have to check out their work more than I have. Always looking for new stuff for my book club (we're pretty adventurous and read a little of everything) I am crazy for British lit (must be my ANglo-Irish blood) but also love AMerican lit and art too. My favorite book of all time is My Antonia by Willa Cather. I am also a huge Walker Percy fan, whose novels are very philosophical and downright funny at the same time. I also like really strange stuff like Beowulf, the epic poem. WHen I was teaching, my students liked that as well. Well, I'm always up for chatting about literature--looking forward to reading more of your poems. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 06:50:01 (EST)
From: seymour Email: None To: Bill Cooper and everyone Subject: best intentions Message: Hi y'all, I have been moved by Bill Cooper's story and would like to echo the sentiments of the others that have replied saying to Bill that you did what you thought was right so there is no need to feel bad about it. We have all blundered along in an idealist haze due to our involvement with DLM and all it's trappings, but it was not our fault. As JW says.. 'we were trying to be sincere. Like somebody wrote below, we bought the lemon used car from Maharaji because we trusted him and that was a big mistake. But it wasn't because we were malevolent or devious, it was because we were idealistic, sincere, very young, suggestible, had a desire for something 'more,' to know the truth, to know who or what god was, and to be happy.' I think that applies to all of us, and that is why premies and ex-premies are, on the whole such a good bunch of people. I think that we all share a feeling that there is more to life than the pursuit of personal power and wealth. We want to communicate and understand one another and the Universe we inhabit. Many of us are also sensitive to the suffering we see around us and realise that we can never be quite happy while it is going on. As Eugene Debs said 'While there is a soul in prison I am not free'. Whether this makes us selfish in wanting to stop it or not I am not sure, but at least we share an awareness of the problems in society and would like to see an improvement. Without believing that GM is the Lord and has a direct connection to God then the knowledge becomes just another way to bury our heads in the sand and 'enjoy life' even though all around us are going through hell. IMHO a more honest way to do this would be to become a drug addict. I used to believe that GM was the boss and, despite what seemed sensible to our limited intellect, would guide us through this life with the vision of someone who knows what it is all about. He seemed to be something like a general standing on the clifftop directing those below who could not see the lay of the land or where the enemy were. This belief was necessary in order to practice something that, without surrendering to a higher plan (which you cannot possibly hope to understand), is so blatantly self centered and escapist that I and many others would not have entertained it. What Bill Cooper went through with his mother, and many of have gone through - i.e. trying to get people to get knowledge rather than relating to them as fellow humans that have much to offer in the exchange of ideas and experience, is something that we, as ex-premies, are now free of. Whatever we did in the name of k. and m. was with the best intentions ( even though they say that's what the road to hell is paved with) and I don't think we should blame ourselves for making the mistakes we did. Hope you are all enjoying life, Seymour Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 11:16:16 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: seymour Subject: Thank you, see-more Message: I have to tell you that I have read this post and the one with the Vonnegut quote several times. I just wanted you to know you're having a very positive impact on me, and making me think in new ways Thanks, brother. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 11:40:05 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: See-more Subject: Thank you, addendum Message: Your analogy of a general atop the mountain is so fitting, a general who issues commands without sullying himself down in the trenches. It reminds me of poetry about war from teaching British lit, this one by Jonathan Swift attacked the Duke of Marlborough, who Swift accused of prolonging a war to make money: A Satirical Elegy on the Death of a Late Famous General His Grace! Impossible! what, dead! Of old age, too, and in his bed! And could that Mighty Warrior fall? And so inglorious, after all! Well, since he's gone, no matter how, The last loud trump must wake him now; And, trust me, as the noise grows stronger, He'd wish to sleep little longer. And could he indeed be so old As by the newspapers we're told? Threescore, I think, is pretty high; 'Twas time in conscience he should die. This world he cumbered long enough; He burnt his candle to the snuff; And that's the reason some folks think, He left behind so great a stink. Behold his funeral appears, Nor widow's sighs, nor orphan's tears, Wont at such times each heart to pierce, Attend the progress of his hearse. But what of that, his friends may say, He had those honours in his day. True to his profit and his pride, He made them weep before he died. Come hither, all ye empty things, Ye bubbles raised by breath of Kings; Who float upon the tide of state, Come hither and behold your fate. Let Pride be taught by this rebuke, How very mean a thing's a duke; From all his ill-got hunours flung, Turned to that dirt from whence he sprung. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 11:42:22 (EST)
From: seymour Email: None To: Helen Subject: The pleasure is all mine Message: :-) I'm glad that you enjoyed the posts. Cheers Seymour Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 21:59:32 (EST)
From: Laura Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I have friends! Message: Thank you for your concern regarding my puke post. Yes, it makes me physically ill and mentally upset to read old satsangs and sometimes to hang around this site. But this is the only place I have to go right now. This is where I want to be. So thanks again for 'listening.' I am not feeling suicidal and if I get too depressed I will probably come visit one of you! Also, I thought the bed pan licker job (really gross) was the winner for a job for BM. And Jerry, your post about the used car salesman was the best! Thank you again. I'm glad to be here and glad you're all here too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 22:11:34 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Laura Subject: I have friends! Message: Glad you're OK, Laura! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 09:22:41 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Laura Subject: I have friends! Message: I'm glad you got a charge out of it, Laura. It was a moment of rare inspiration. I couldn't resist :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 09:55:56 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Laura Subject: Yes, you really do! Message: Laura: I'm REALLY glad that you recognize that 'you do have friends here.' I consider myself lucky to be in that group, Laura. I really enjoy your posts and consider it an honor to be associated with such an honest person as yourself. ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 15:59:56 (EST)
From: seymour Email: None To: Mike Subject: Yes, you really do! Message: I second that. Hope you are well Laura and I also enjoy your posts. All the best, Seymour Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 21:51:59 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: I remember at one point Diz suggested that the whole topic of premies and their sexuality, and premie relationships was a subject that deserved its own thread. I am curious (and nosey) about how those in the ashrams reentered the world of dating and relationships. I am curious about premie marriages/relationships and what happens when one person in the relationship develops serious doubts about GM and knowledge. I myself never 'dated' a premie or had a relationship with one: I did meet a guy at a festival but our short time together was oh so chaste and pure ( I suspect he had a wife back in Washington state now that I think about it). . I also had a huge crush on a premie but he turned out to be gay. Oh well. We became good friends and housemates anyway. Anyone care to open up this can of worms? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 22:35:44 (EST)
From: Mc Email: e_mc_42@hotmail.com To: Helen Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: Sure, let's open it up. My ex-wife & I were both premies, received K separately before we knew each other (we did have mutal friends) & had a 'premie' wedding - i.e., at the premie house. We both stopped practicing K at the same time so I can't contribute to that particular discussion thread. Sex between premies, in general, was fraught with concepts - 'the act should be pure & 'selfless' (right)' or the whole idea of it was 'maya' or simply being 'in your mind'; hey, more opportunities for guilt. The best anecdote I can think of happened shortly after M married. In reference to Durga Ji, a respectable, educated premie woman in the community said increduously: 'She balls him!?!!' (her emphasis) (please forgive my language but this is a quote). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 23:24:29 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mc Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: Hmmmm, well, GM did have to pick the most gorgeous in-your-face bombshell to marry. It is kind of weird though to think about having sex with the 'Lord'. I mean, talk about your submissive-dominant relationships. Oh,man, let's not even go THERE. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 01:41:31 (EST)
From: Insider Email: None To: Helen Subject: micro-phallus Message: I have it on good authority that GMJ isn't quite in league with John Holmes, if you get my drift. I'm not saying he suffers from micro-phallus syndrome, but..... You would think the lord could come up with something more impressive than below average size equipment. the person I talked to was very disappointed! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 02:08:34 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Insider Subject: micro-phallus Message: So, 'insider,' just how 'inside' are/were you? And who was this person who was disappointed? Was it Marolyn, Monika Lewis, or someone else? And disappointed in what? Knowledge? If Maharaji is 'Mr. Micro-penis,' I'm sure he just repeated what Bal Baghwan Ji used to say, that 'happiness is experience divided by expectation,' that you shouldn't have concepts, that it will be 'so beautiful inside,' and that you should be grateful for his gift, which should be measured by the heart, not the mind. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 10:23:52 (EST)
From: Dr Ruth Email: None To: Insider Subject: micro-phallus Message: Um...er....that vas perhaps more zan ve needed to know. Vell...maybe not, tell ALL! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 14:24:09 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Dr Ruth Subject: Tell All Message: Oh, Doctor. More than we needed to know? The more we discuss Maharaji was just a screwed up guy, the better, in my opinion. It kind of destroys the fake divinity he fosters. I say, tell all! So, what do you know? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 17:01:27 (EST)
From: Dr. Ruth Email: None To: JW Subject: Tell All Message: I zink zat sex is fun, fun, fun and dat zere vas too much guilt in dis, how you say, Maharachi cult. Loosen up, have fun! Dat's vat I say! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 12:24:13 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Insider Subject: micro-phallus Message: It WOULD make sense. I mean proportionally speaking and all. And then there's the need for all the impressive cars. That's often a sign. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 13:00:28 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Selene Subject: micro-phallus Message: Selene: If someone 'gives' him a Harley and he rides it, that will be confirmation..... he he he. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 04:23:57 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: Mike Subject: micro-phallus Message: Hi Captain Mike! I have seen him riding one! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 14:26:38 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: bb Subject: micro-phallus Message: Dear Bill, I KNOW a man with that problem also and HE has a Harely! :) Never knew of the signal though. :( Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 14:23:08 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Selene Subject: micro-phallus Message: Dear Selene, I was thinking the same thing about BM's proportions but the cars I hadn't thought of! Hahahahaha! Funny and TRUE! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 20:11:47 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Insider Subject: His eeny weeny peeny... Message: That's what I love about this website. No sacred cows here, ha-ha! For sure, he would have a small schlong, it's an Asian characteristic, nothing wrong with that - just related to the average size of the people! It just maybe gets lost in caucasian women...I can't believe I just said that, ah well. Hey you know this short man's complex people talk about? I think the Big M, sorry Miniscule M, by his sheer circumstance, probably avoided those usual insecurities, 'cause he's been worshiped by lots of men taller than himself....!! TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 22:32:24 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: TD Subject: His eeny weeny peeny... Message: Well you know what they say about men with big bellies, too--make sure you can see the birdie under the porch, honey! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 09:51:33 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Helen Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: To show you how far gone I was, I seriously wondered if Maharaji's first kid was brought into the world by immaculate conception. I have my good Catholic upbringing to thank for that, along with a serious dose of naivete. I really got confused by Maharaji's marriage. It was another contradiction I couldn't understand. Maharaji was given so much leniency in his involvement with worldliness. He would preach against wealth but it was cool for him to be wealthy because as the Lord, he was 'unattached' to his wealth. He would preach against getting married and raising a family, but then he could do the same, himself, because he was, again, 'unattached'. What a scam. The amount of justification I had to do to accept Maharaji as my master was sickening. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 10:09:01 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Mis-conception Message: Jerry: I'm speaking for myself, but I think that you were definitely NOT alone in your belief that 'immaculate' conception was a possibility. I think that we were, once again, trying to rationalize the lard's inconsistent behavior. 'Gee, it couldn't be that he had 'normal' sexual desires, now could it.... no, no, no, get out Mr. Mind, you're trying to mess with this totally divine act of love for ALL of his premies... bad mind, bad, bad, bad!' I rememeber someone (not sure who) said that in this act, he was 'marrying' ALL the premies!!!! What a crock! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 10:28:34 (EST)
From: Sister Helen Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: Yeah, he gets away with murder, how does he do it? It's the 'lila loophole', no? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 10:46:59 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jerry Subject: You really thought that? Message: You serious, Jerry? You honestly thought that M could have sired his kids without his peepee? Holy shit! I wouldn't go around telling people that, you know. I mean, you didn't write it down anywhere or anything, did you? You didn't publish it or something... did you? Oh my God, Jer. I don't know what to say. I mean, yes, I thought he was God and everything.. You really thought that? ........... REALLY? Holy shit...... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 11:08:16 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: I really thought that Message: Unfuckingbelievable, isn't it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 13:03:52 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: I actually kind of liked the idea that Guru Maharaj Ji got married. I think that was partly because we got to take those ugly pictures of the holy family off the altars at about the same time. I found the holy family much more confusing than M's marriage. The existence of the holy family the hardest thing to explain, and one of the greatest impediments to harrassing people into joining our cult. Plus, Durga Ji seemed like a nice, maybe not the brightest, good-looking woman, and her picture looked a lot better on the altars than that cow mata ji did. As I think I've said before, although I didn't believe in immaculate conception, I never could imagine in my mind Maharaji e ever having sex, especially with a blonde woman who was quite a bit taller than he was. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 22:49:50 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: JW Subject: photos of Durga Ji Message: JW, I remember when M got married and the Holy family photos were replaced by photos of 'Durga Ji'. Ha ha! I remember my premie relatives saying: 'Isn't she beautiful? Isn't she the most beautiful woman you have ever seen? It's so beautiful that Maharaji got married.' It was proof in their minds that he was the Lord if he could get this gorgeous woman. I agree with you that Durga Ji was quite a trump card for premies to play because she was much more appealing to look at than Mata Ji or his brothers were. I remember thinking she was a BIG fool to marry such an ugly guy. I thought she could do better. I was kind of young and I guess I was sort of hung up on looks, but then again, so were those premies. Speaking of Marolyn, I wonder how the person who gave the site that letter from her is doing now. Does anyone know? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 02:22:52 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Helen Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: I am curious (and nosey) about how those in the ashrams reentered the world of dating and relationships Well, I would say that while in the ashram, sex was constantly on the minds of absolutely every one of the ashram premies, and if they denied this, I am confident they were lying. Considering that, I'm surprised that not very much sex actually went on. I think most of the ashramites did comply with their celibacy vows and if they didn't they were usually found out and expelled. The ashram sisters I knew talked constantly about the brothers, but the brothers didn't talk about sex to anyone. Sex was NEVER discussed, except to say it was a bad thing to be avoided. It was one of the biggest desires that the mind would use to knock you off the path of righteousness in the ashram. As such, it had a very negative connotation. I did notice that many of the straight ashram premies kind of 'paired-up' with each other after the ashrams closed. By and large those relationships failed, although there were exceptions. I was in the ashram during almost my entire involvement in the cult, so I never had a relationship with any premie. I can't imagine it frankly. We were so indoctrinated with ideas about all that stuff that I can't imagine a relationship between premies as being anything other than weird. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 10:40:06 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: JW Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: There was a very beautiful woman in the ashram who said that GM took care of 'that aspect of life, also' ( I asked her point blank about what it was like to be celibate) I think she meant that she got so blissed out on him that she sublimated her passion into loving him, and he fulfilled her in some mystical way. Like a 'bride of Christ' kind of thing for nuns. To me, in a way, at least she was dealing with the fact that she was a woman with sexual needs rather that just trying to deny it. It's hard for me too to imagine a relationship with a premie. Marriage is difficult enough (and I have a great husband, I'm not complaining here) without all those trips about sex, attachment, conflict, anger etc. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 11:29:22 (EST)
From: Mc Email: e_mc_42@hotmail.com To: JW Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: JW: I used to know a 'worldly wise' premie sister who told me a story: At an ashram gathering she was having a conversation with a brother and asked him if he lived in the ashram; he replied 'No, I don't'. She said: 'That's funny, you look horney'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 12:45:44 (EST)
From: St. John of the Closet Email: None To: JW Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: Joe: Actually, when I used to go through the darshan line, I tried to faint into the arms of some 'hot' sister. You know someone like Julian West. One time, I succeeded! There I was, in HER arms, pressed tightly against her gorgeous finite bod. I relaxed deeply into the holiest of breaths and felt myself swooning, intoxicated by her arms wrapped tightly around my ever expanding waist. But alas, seeking more and contact with her I became such a burden that a brother stepped in and tried to take me off her hands. Over come as I was with pure gloriously lustful desire I mumbled 'oh maraji oh maraji' and clutched wildly at Julian pretending that I thought she was maraji. I wrapped myself around her, and stroked her body, all the while whispering 'maraji maraji my lord and my bod'. She was obviously also feeling the effect of years of celibacy so she hustled me into one of the private side rooms. She forced me to the floor and climbed on top of me and took full advantage of the situation. It was without a doubt my most memorable darshan! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 12:53:49 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: St. John of the Closet Subject: so that's why.... Message: They have premies sitting in front of doors all over those halls. At last an answer to a mystery that has plagued me for years. I have often asked why they are sitting or standing at these doors that no one wants to go through anyway. Now I know. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 14:58:01 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: St. John of the Closet Subject: Great story! Message: St. John, I haven't heard such a good 'getting laid' story, as your's, since I was... oh... 14, I guess. Me and my friends used to tell them to each other all the time, and every one of them was true, just like your's. Scout's honour. No shit, really. I remember once.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 15:05:12 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: St. John of the Closet Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: Interesting fantasy. I wonder how many premie sisters fantasized about having sex with Maharaji? Anyone admit to that? We were always told, back in the 70s, that Guru Maharaj Ji was very old-fashioned when it came to sex. Little did we know how 'liberated' and 'modern' he became just a few years later, with affairs and mistresses. I think I told this story once before, but for a couple of years I lived in the ashram in San Antonio, Texas, which was a combination ashram and ashram novitiate program. People applying to live in the ashram got sent there from all over the country for a kind of ashram 'boot camp.' They also tended to send recalcitrant mahatmas there for recycling, like Parlokanand after he got caught molesting little boys, and 'problem' ashram premies from places like Denver got sent there for, shall we say, 're-education.' It was a big place, over 100 premies. One of the premies started teaching a 'therapeutic massage class' and the question arose about whether it was okay for celibate ashram premies to massage someone of the opposite sex. After going through all the appropriate channels, the word came down from 'the residence' that such a thing was downright sinful and absolutely forbidden. I think the reason was sort of like the Catholic doctrine of being put in the 'occasion of sin.' Of course, even the possibility that some of us were gay and so the rule was kind of irrelevent, didn't even arise. That was considered just out of the question. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 16:58:32 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: JW Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: The up close and personal stories about the inner workings of the cult that you and Gail have to tell are so valuable in popping the bubble of mystique around knowledge. Thanks, JW! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 15:49:56 (EST)
From: Wildman Email: None To: St. John of the Closet Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: Great story John! I'm not quite sure what 'St. John of the Coset' means, but you are very funny Sexuality is a great subject, gets my blood boiling. In fact, I would say that K and sex have been synonymous throughout my history with K. The only thing about sex that bothered me were the stories about how conservative M was at the residence about the women wearing bikinis or something. I had heard a long time ago that at this one ashram on Wilsher Blvd. in L.A. the guys were all sleeping with someone in the ashram. The last rumour I heard was about an incident that happeneded about five years ago up at the residence. M had caught Marolyn in one of the trailors banging a South American premie. It was about that time I stopped going to the residence. Marolyn seemed very available, and I thought the girls were fat and ugly It seemed everyone I met in the L.A. area was into sex. Did you ever hear about Bhari Singh banking some chick in the Palisades house and M comes down to find out what all the commotion was and says, 'Hey, I want some of that!' or 'Save some for me!' And what about when he was dating Marolyn. He used to drive dowm to San Diego and bang her in the back seat of the car. I was always looking for a premie chick to bang. Satsang was the great pick-up place in any city. I just stayed away from the moralizers. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 21:07:14 (EST)
From: Laura Email: None To: Wildman Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: I don't usually defend anti-Maharaji posts, but your post sounds like bullshit. I'm here to learn, not to read made up stories. Sex and Knowledge synonomous? You were always looking for a premie chick to bang? I hope this is the only fuck you got, here it is - FUCK YOU. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 12:13:35 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Helen Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: I hated being married to a premie even though I was one. It was great at first, lots of inspiration and hope for the future. We both felt we were doing 'The' thing to do in this life. Later when we had the usual conflicts that any couple do, he would 'satsang' me and give me guilt trips that it was my ego or lack of connection that was causing problems/ always with some arrogant assumption that HE was more 'connected' of course :) Then there was the pressure to attend all those dumb festivals. And the insistance on putting BM before ourselves and our marriage, even our kids! YUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's my rant. Not very constructive but it was great to be able to write it. I wish he could read this. Premies are not the only people who pull down a cloak of pretentious spirituality whenever conflict comes along. But they do it too. Still do from when I have experienced in the very recent past. And, being apremie in those days made me feel really uptight about sex. After all, the teen age lord of the universe spouted all this stuff about 'the body' not being important. And the ashram prmies were looked at as being more devoted and their celibacy considered a great expression of devotion and following agya. So I didn't know WHAT to do about sex! Funny that the guilt tripping satsang giving one never got that way! He kind of conveniently ignored the inference toward celibacy. heh!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 12:32:30 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Selene Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: You go, girl! I had a boyfriend like your ex. He was into Muktananda, was always high on pot, unemployed, and was living with me and mooching off of me. When I'd be frantically trying to finish a deadline for my job, and trying to study for school, he would tell me i was 'losing my focus'. I guess being focussed meant being a bum! Oh we were a fine pair with our Guru trips going! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 12:40:15 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Helen Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: Thanks Helen It really was a form of abuse in a way. Or at least brain washing and power tripping. I am SO grateful those days are over and that I escaped with a good part of my life still ahead of me. The first thing I had to learn was how to like myself, and how to be assertive and believe it was OK to stick up for myself. OH yeah, and little things like how to get along with people and keep a job. I couldn't even go clothes shopping I didn't know how. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 12:51:46 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Helen Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: I had two relatively long-term relationships with premie men during the time when I was a premie. We were all fairly young: late teens to early twenties. I even lived in the same room with one guy in a premie house for a while - everyone treated us like a couple. Our participation in the M cult was really bad for both relationships, in my opinion. In those days (early to late seventies), there were only two 'acceptable' life paths for premies could go: move in to the ashram or become a householder: get married and have kids. Anyway, I knew I wanted to be a 'householder', which to me meant being in a male/female relationship. Both of the men that I was in relationships with were very torn about whether they should move into the ashram and FULLY devote themselves. This was really hard for both me and them: they felt guilty all the time for being in a relationship with a woman (because it distracted them from GM), and I felt like I was somehow distracting them from their worship of M - that they were much 'higher' than me because they didn't really want to be in the relationship. Sex was a big problem. One of my boyfriends used to get really mad (and I mean REALLY mad) at me for 'tempting' him away from GM. Basically, I didn't do much, if any, actual 'tempting' - just my presence was enough. I think a lot of the guys in DLM felt that way back then - that women were a distraction that needed to be overcome. I am not sure if women felt this way too. I think a lot of the people who were in conjugal relationships (marriages, etc) tried to be celibate or witholding so that they could focus their energies on M instead of the other person. I also think a lot of people used their worship of M to avoid intimacy. I really noticed this in one relationship I was in. At the time he was seeing me, I don't think that this guy wanted much more than a casual relationship with a woman, which is OK, but he used his devotion to Maharaji to justify this, which wasn't fair. It made me feel like I was inferior because I wasn't devoted enough TOO, and that the ideal was for both partners to be devoted to M and to use the relationship as a means of fufilling practical needs such as sex, childrearing, and so forth. This was extremely difficult for me to live with, and in fact was one of the reasons I left M and quit practicing Knowledge. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 16:11:51 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: I also think a lot of people used their worship of M to avoid intimacy. I believe this was true in my case, Katie. I was seeing a woman, who wasn't a premie, for about 2 years when I received K. She had her heart set on getting married and starting a family, but I knew that this could never happen, that it was either her or Maharaji. I wanted to move into an ashram and just leave her behind, this was in 1981, but for some reason, I was told this wasn't possible. Even so, in time the relationship (if it can be called that) just fizzled out. Too bad. This girl really loved me and we probably could have had a happy life together if I wasn't as emotionally retarded as I was. I had other problems, too, besides my infatuation with M, but it was Maharaji who I was ready to give up everything for. I did this twice, actually. Later on, another woman fell head over heels for me but I treated her like she was a second fiddle too. I was really an asshole. And like you say, I think my failure in relationships was due to a fear of intimacy, not love for Maharaji. I was just hiding behind him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 16:22:27 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Speaking of Closets ... Message: This premie guy pursued me until I said OK. Then he started sleeping over (in my closet). He would quote celebacy passages from the saints. It turned out that he was uncertain whether or not he was gay. I really got him though. One night after a shift at the bar, I brought the maitre'd home to observe G in the closet. It was quite embarrassing for G, no doubt. Another time, Randy Purdy (Prouty--something like that) came to town. He pointed at me and said, 'And there are those women who wear lipstick like flashing neon signs--look at me, look at me.' (In his case, look but don't touch!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 17:08:10 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Gail Subject: You harlot, you! (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 17:15:22 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Gail Subject: Speaking of Closets ... Message: I recall a number of premie women saying that they intentionally gained weight, wore frumpy clothes, wore glasses, didn't wear make-up, etc., in order to make themselves less attractive to men, in order to avoid sex and intimacy and to remain 100% dedicated to Maharaji, without the 'distractions' of a relationship. And here is another story. I knew personally, two premies who had lived in the ashram for a number of years, but began seeing each other romatically. They were two of the most immature people I ever met. They were not, however, interested in getting married. Anyhow, the woman got pregnant. They considered an abortion, since neither was in any position to get married, either financially or emotionally, but they were told that Maharaji was adamantly OPPOSED to abortion and, so, they got married with disastrous consequences. I think the marriage maybe lasted two years, the kid was a total mess, etc. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 17:58:12 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Gail Subject: Speaking of Closets ... Message: God, Gail, I can't believe that initiator said that! Have you ever seen how much lipstick Marolyn wears? Daya too! I guess it's only for the chosen few... I DO believe that the guy lived in your closet, unfortunately. Maybe we can trade stories sometimes! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 17:28:25 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Katie & Jerry Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: Thanks for your relationship stories. Katie you were on your own at a very young age, that struck me from your journey story. You know, nothing in the GM trip addressed the idea of commitment & obligation to others. It was a whole avoidance of intimacy, you are right. What you both went through is another example of being 'cut into pieces' as Diz said-- in a relationship, but leaving the door open for the ashram. It sounds so confusing. It would've made me nuts (well, it would have been a short trip!) I have a dear friend who was in turmoil for 15 years about whether or not he should commit to being a Franciscan monk. He was in the monastery for 7 yrs, then out, then trying to decide what to do. After being in a series of relationships, he is finally at the age of 45, getting engaged. That is such a heavy thing to have to go through! Jeez, it's so all or nothing, black & white! I knew that the ashram life was NOT for me. The lack of privacy, not having control over your time, etc. I would have been reading books all night with a flashlight cause I would not have been able to live without them! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 17:58:13 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Helen Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: Helen: All these stories are... eh...em...ahem... I wanna go home now... he he he ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 22:42:31 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Everyon Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: Well, er, um this concludes our premie sexuality round table. (Please feel free to continue the discussion folks if the inspiration strikes) I'm really embarrased that I have now told the world my deep dark secrets. Well, I take comfort in knowing I wasn't the only confused puppy out there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 22:57:07 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Helen and Jerry Subject: Premie Sexuality Message: Hi Helen - Yes, I do think you understand what I was going through. I wanted to be able to have relationships like any other teenage-early 20's age person, but I wanted to be devoted to M too. There was basically no provision made for that. Either you got married right away (which several of my friends did, and had kids at age seventeen and eighteen and so forth), or you moved into the ashram. I feel really glad that I avoided having children at such a young age, but I'm sorry that our premie male-female relationships back then had to be such a mess (such as Jerry related), and I'm also sorry that so many of my premie friends found it necessary to get married and have children at such a young age. I think it's hard enough for men and women to commit to each other without having yet another commitment - that to Guru Maharaji - in between one's committent to one another. That added commitment probably made the other commitments impossible, especially because it was supposed to supercede ALL other commitments. I feel fortunate to have made it out of the maze intact. I got married for the first time at age thirty-nine (could NOT have done it earlier), and am glad I waited until then. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 09:42:51 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Katie Subject: Premies' Children Message: Hey Katie, I think it is indefensible on Maharaji's part that 18 and 19 year olds were marrying and having children. On the 'quality of life' continuum, that has got to be at the far lowest rung of a lifestyle. I guess with support from grandparents it could be tolerable, but let's face it, raising children is a tough and expensive job. I just think this was all part of this fantasy that 'Guru Mahraji will provide & take care of us' BULLSHIT!!!! Man, that is so true about the 2 choices being householder and ashram premie. I'm telling you those 'double bind' situations create mental illness and possible suicides. Glad you worked your way out of the maze, Katie. Ain't it a trip? Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 21:02:47 (EST)
From: RT Email: mmmmmmmm To: Everyone Subject: Our Resigned Right Mission Message: Dear Friends; I want to compile a list numbered from 1 to 99+ called: 99 REASONS WE LEFT THE ROOM..TO DOUBT MAHARAJI Once assembled, we could email it to anyone! It is similiar to JW's post May 19 1998: '10 commandments '. A collective wisdom from our web sages, and perhaps Brian could post it on it's own page. Here's a start: 1. We realize that there is NO inner connection between Maharaji and the inner experience of the meditation he reveals. 2. Devotion to him is a brainwashing trap and an option. -Try to keep the statements consise. I appreciate your input and look forward to some nice new threads! Each of you could easily submit 3 or more I think. Sound OK? thanks, RT > JUST SAY KNOW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 21:13:01 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: RT Subject: Our Resigned Right Mission Message: Here's one: Maharaji's 'knowledge' is wilfully blind to the growing knowledge we have of the world, life and, in particular, the brain. People might look into Maharaji's dark closet because they think there's something there but, when they end up staying for years and years, they're really just hiding. They might as well throw a blanket over their heads. It is absolutely impossible to be a premie and a student of brain science. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 21:20:42 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: RT Subject: Here Ya Go Message: Top three reasons I left the cult: l. My mental and physical health suffered.(Mentally--arrested development, physically--not paying attention to health) 2. I found that other things (people, school, music, studying other religions, career) became more interesting to me once I got some distance from 'the trip' 3. I developed some morals and ethics and saw that the GM trip didn't address those topics Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 21:39:20 (EST)
From: Mc Email: e_mc_42@hotmail.com To: RT Subject: Our Resigned Right Mission Message: Why I left It: 1) It wasn't working; all the effort was futile, a waste. I was in it for God realization and it was going nowhere. 2) It had become a religion. (Catholicism had already been enough religion for one lifetime) 3) Premie bullshit - i.e., trip laying, guilt, etc. 4) It wasn't working. 5) It just wasn't working. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 11:27:31 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Mc and RT Subject: Our Resigned Right Mission Message: Thanks, Mc, you made this easy for me. Your reasons matched mine EXACTLY, right down to the Catholic thing. So I repeat you: Why I left It: 1) It wasn't working; all the effort was futile, a waste. I was in it for God realization and it was going nowhere. 2) It had become a religion. (Catholicism had already been enough religion for one lifetime) 3) Premie bullshit - i.e., trip laying, guilt, etc. 4) It wasn't working. 5) It just wasn't working. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 21:42:21 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: RT Subject: Our Resigned Right Mission Message: Well I didn't try to leave the cult - it just dried up over here in 1983. Within a few years I'd realised that the whole trip had been an insanity and I no longer agreed with any of it any more. However, if you want the best reason of all why I never went back it's because Maharaji really WASN'T the Lord. Just a bare faced liar. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 02:42:45 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: RT Subject: Our Resigned Right Mission Message: 1. I got to the point that I was so miserable and hated being a premie so much, that I had to leave, and I didn't care if M's threats about going to hell were true or not. It was a question of survival. 2. I found that what Maharaji was doing and what was going on in the cult, especially what I saw happening to people I cared about, attacked values I had held my whole life. I realized Maharaji didn't know, care about, or give a shit about the premies and never had. 3. When I stopped believing in Maharaji, he just became an odd, greasy little Indian guy who was incredibly greedy. When I saw him at programs, I was repulsed, not attracted. 4. Knowledge didn't work and it never had worked. We just told ourselves and each other over and over that it did. Meditation might help make you calm, but what Maharaji offered was just a religion, and a religion that was narcissistic, valueless and with no apparent purpose except to enrich Maharaji. 5. It was clear that Maharaji's priority was not spreading knowledge, it was accumulating wealth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 10:44:03 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: JW Subject: Amen, brother !(nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 03:59:09 (EST)
From: bill burke Email: None To: JW Subject: Our Resigned Right Mission Message: He was so angry at his mom for telling the truth about him that he refused to see her for 17 years till she finally died. He still refuses to see two of his brothers and we are supposed to think he is the master of life and we are to love him. He has cheated on his wife for years with instructor monica lewis. His wife knows and objects but to no avail. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 15:46:02 (EST)
From: RT Email: mmmmmmmm To: all the exes Subject: Resigned Right Mission: soon! Message: ...thanks to the commenters. I will complile a few other gems from other recent posts and credit each writer by initials only...then post for ye all to cut 'n' paste....suitable for framing... Maharaji! ....not too soon tho, I need to find another car! RT who reads the want ads religiously and skips the seeks ads. seek and ye shall want? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 20:33:11 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: RT Subject: Our Resigned Right Mission Message: RT, honey, you are going to have to edit these, as some are going to overlap with others, but here's mine: 1. Feeling like I was smothered, stifled, and suffocated. 2. Finding it impossible to have a loving relationship with a premie of the opposite sex. 3. Feeling incredibly guilty because I could never do ENOUGH meditation, service, and satsang for the person who I believed was the Lord of the Universe. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 12:02:24 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: RT Subject: Our Resigned Right Mission Message: RT, I know I'm a little late on this thread, but here are my reasons: 1. The movement had no sense of humour. 2. Everybody talked about love; no one appeared to be experiencing love. 3. I left room for doubt in my mind. 4. I did not experience the peace I was promised. 5. BM seemed less and less like the Perfect Master and more and more like the Perfect Materialist. 6. The movement had no sense of humour!! 7. The devotional music sucked. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 05:34:13 (EST)
From: jethro Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Our Resigned Right Mission Message: Mickey I hope you allow yourself to put of until tomorrow would you could do today......of course only if you want to. jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 20:06:09 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Breath of fresh air Message: Hey, for a good show check out the dialogue between Golden Oldie and Keith over on the uncensored premie page, the one most premies are afraid to post on: http://www.paradise-web.com/plus_le/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&id=134.209517740645 Keith is such a twerp but GO seems like a kind of neat guy. Religious, caught up in the cult and all that, but honest. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 11:37:48 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Figures don't lie Message: The premies now report: a) more than 5,000 people a day hit their page. Must be that pretty footprint. Something just keeps bringing me back. Woo-oo-woo-oo!! b) more than 9,000 people got k this year including a whopping 280 North Americans. Hey, I know a winner when I see one. I'm outta here. Time to get back on the peace train, folks! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 18:05:44 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: Figures don't lie Message: Hey Jim: I think they are counting each and every ip packet sent to their site as a hit. 5000 people a day is rediculous! I doubt that 5000 people even know about it, yet. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 18:44:53 (EST)
From: Anon Email: None To: Jim Subject: 6000 hits is NOT 6000 people Message: Well, I think there may be an explanation here. I know of a simple personal homepage which, according to the stats page (that the server provides), got 8636 hits so far just this week. Some weeks as much as 12000. This sounds great but is a bit deceiving. The index page counter only registers around 7000 total. Why the discrepency? I made some enquiries and discovered that the servers 'stats' figures count every thing that is loaded ie: a single graphic icon will count as 1 hit etc. and each time a page is loaded within the site , it counts that too plus all the graphic incidences (background gifs, pictures etc). So those 'stats' figures that people quote are, I understand, not a true indication of the number of people tuning in. I would guess that it would not be too inaccurate to divide those large figures by about 100. That would still indicate about 86 people a week stopping by at this homepage which hasn't been updated for months and could no way be described as a particularly resourceful URL. I wouldn't be surprised if 60 people per day tune in to the 'EnjoyingLifemorethanothers' page. 6000 people is unrealistic in my opinion. I am rather surprised that more premies have not submitted their testimonies. Don't you think that the page (reserved for the hallowed memories of Charananand and other revered luminaries) entitled 'Remembrances' is a bit over reverential sounding. 'We are gathered here to share our remembrances of the spotless and blessed past'! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 04:02:42 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Anon Subject: 'spotless and blessed past' Message: Great line Anon Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 09:02:58 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Anon Subject: 6000 hits is NOT 6000 people Message: You're correct in saying that each file that the browser retrieves from a site is counted as a 'hit' in the log file, since it takes a separate transaction to retrieve each graphic and each frame (EL.O just loves those frames). But as for their inane boasting, Maharaji will either believe it or not. If he believes their numbers, then he has to believe that the numbers ALSO represent the secret readers of this site. If he doesn't believe the numbers, then he has to face the fact that his only 'web presence' is being maintained by bumbling fools. In light of their willingness to bite life's shiny hooks, I'd have to go with the bumbling fools choice above. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 11:31:42 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Yeah, right, Michele Message: Whatever I ever asked of Maharaji, and whatever I ever expected, he has always given me so much more. Funny, every single premie I ever knew asked for the moon -- God realization, for starts. Peace of mind, peace that passeth all understanding, freedom FROM the mind. Better service, more darshan... and that's just the devotional wish list. We're not full of shit here, are we Michele? Hm? Just a little maybe? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 21:33:03 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yeah, right, Michele Message: Ya know one thing he gave me is a bad case of constipation from sitting in cars & driving 1,000 miles to Miami, Kissimmee and Denver and sitting in halls for hours listening to satsang, and eating high fat, high calorie food to 'ground' myself at those damn festivals. Not to mention a backache and sunburn. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 11:25:39 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Yeah, right, Rosie Message: I am Muslim who loves her religion, and when I was first introduced to Knowledge and Maharaji I loved the feeling, but I felt that if I accepted Maharaji I was betraying my religion. I had a hard time coming to terms with this. It took me five years before I was ready to accept that it was OK to receive Knowledge. Hey, Rosie, Here's a fun suggestion for the holiday season (You do have one, don't you?). Tell your local mullah about Maharaji getting his students to line up to kiss his feet. But first, red him your poem to Maharaji. HaHaHaHaHA! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 00:08:39 (EST)
From: Bill Cooper Email: billnlynda @xtra.co.nz To: Everyone Subject: I was a premie Fuckwit Message: I haven't written here for quite a long time, although I do lurk on a fairly regular basis. Anyway, I have recently been doing a first aid course and it brought back memories that I would like to share,. My mother died when I was in my early twenties she had angina and died from a coronary thrombosis. At the time I was an ardent premie, but going through a lot of personal conflict. I did not see my parents very much as they lived in the North of England and I was at university in the Midlands. I did use every opportunity to bombard them with the truth of the living Lord. I got them to watch videos etc, which looking back on it they did with enormous grace. Anyway, this summer I had spent in Greece most of the time on my own in a tent in the Haldakikis practising my karate, doing yoga and of course meditation on the Supreme knowledge. When I got back to England I called up my mother and told her I would be travelling up to Sunderland to see them the next day. Really this was pretty selfish, it was to get a few good meals and free board and accommodation while my clothes were being washed. I never got to talk to my mother. When I got home she was at the shops and my brother was at home. We waited for her to come back. When she arrived at the back door of our terraced house accompanied by several other women she was in a terrible state looking breathless and confused. Within about 10 minutes from then she was dead. I got my brother to ring for an ambulance. And I was alone with her in the living room. I could see she was going to die. I tried to do the light technique on her and told her to watch her breath as she went in to the light. Within a short period of time she stopped breathing the face puffed up a rich purple colour and her pulse ceased. The ambulance eventually came, the men took away the corpse and we were obviously devastated. What a fuck wit I was!!! In my premie delusions I had given greater priority to my mother having got the techniques of knowledge rather than C P R. I think that island by Aldous Huxley also had some influence. The thing is that I had completely forgotten this episode, thinking that my mother had just died, instead of her dying and me doing no First Aid what so ever. Who knows? Perhaps she would have died anyway, but perhaps she would have lived to have met my wife and been a Grand mother to our children. I find that these days more and more of these disturbing memories come to light. In some sense I feel that I was in the Brown shirt movement and know I am having to come to terms with some of the atrocities that I committed in my fanaticism for the Third Reich. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 07:57:52 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Bill Cooper Subject: I was a premie Fuckwit Message: Bill, I too have done a lot of dimwitted things in my past (really really dumb things), this will be very hard for you to forgive yourself for. I have found that guilt is useful to the extent that it makes me change my behavior and vow not to do the stupid hurtfult thing ever again. You were quite deluded during that period of time but now you are trying to think clearly. That's all you can do, you cannot change the past. Memory is a very very painful & difficult thing to deal with. I think JW said the answer is to bring the memories to the light and deal with them rather than repress them. Therapy is helpful too. Bless you for sharing your memory with us. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 08:33:28 (EST)
From: Bill Email: None To: Helen Subject: I was a premie Fuckwit Message: I meant to say guilt is ONLY useful to the extent that it makes us change our behavior. Also, Bill, your mother would not want you beating yourself up for this the rest of your life. She would want you to have your life, a meaningful, full, rich life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 12:30:40 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Bill Subject: I was a premie Fuckwit Message: Sorry I posted that last post as from you to me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 12:19:36 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Bill Cooper Subject: I was a premie Fuckwit Message: Bravo for your honesty to yourself. The only thing worse than dredging that stuff up is leaving it buried. I think most premies made some really dumb mistakes. Of course, not everyone found themselves in your position, but I'd guess many would have done the same as you, or at least thought of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 12:42:12 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Bill Cooper Subject: Your Mother would understand Message: Yeah, I like 'Vis' too. I owe you an email about my UFO sighting by the way. I'll post it soon. If there IS life after death then I think your mother would understand that your motives were loving even though perhaps a little confused. She would know you tried to do the best thing for her, as you saw it. I once had a bad angina attack myself and I was very close to dying. I was in a mad panic and hoping that the ambulance would get to me real quick! I ended up collapsing onto the living room floor and clutching my chest but as I started to go unconscious it all felt pretty peaceful and my surroundings felt very distant. Your mother may not have even been conscious of what you were doing and if she was she probably thought you were just trying to calm her down. Getting someone's heart started again if they've just had a cardiac arrest due to thrombosis is a very difficult and hit and miss affair. It would have required more specialised equipment than you had available and mere heart massage almost certainly wouldn't have been enough. If there's a myocardial infarction and a major artery is blocked which must have been the case if the heart stopped, then heart massage alone would not have restarted the heart. The blocked blood vessel would have prevented that. So don't beat yourself up. You did what you felt was a loving gesture. You own Mother would understand, I'm sure. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 12:58:54 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Bill Cooper Subject: I was a premie Fuckwit Message: I am the queen at beating myself up over the past. I have had a lot of support from people here about guilt over putting the bigM and traveling to see him over my children's needs. One thing I have learned is we did what we thought was right. He did present himself as a divine being, someone who could bring us beyond what we could do ourselves. So the reasoning was, if we followed M's instructions and did what was expected of a good premie, than we would somehow be a better parent, a better person, etc. You were sincere and thought it was the best thing you could do. And we are all different people now. My heart goes out to you and I think it's great you could share this with us. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 14:33:19 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Bill Cooper Subject: I was a premie Fuckwit Message: Bill, I agree with Rick that talking about these things you are remembering is all part of the healing process. I also think it's doubtful that doing CPR, even if you knew what that was then,[I didn't,] would do much. Like David said, I think you need pretty specialized equipment to get a heart beating again, and I'm sure whatever you did for your mother in those last minutes were done because you cared for her, and that's what's important. I also have some memories of things I did to people I loved because of our 'brown shirt' mentality in Maharaji's cult. Maharaji was so disdainful of families, particularly parents, because he set himself up as our true father. It's revolting to think about, but true. It was almost like you had to prove your devotion and love for Maharaji by witholding the love from your own family. It was like there wasn't enough love to go around, and Maharaji wanted it ALL. I actually felt guilty in the cult because I had a place in my own heart for my family that I didn't give to M, much as I tried. Nevertheless, I missed my own grandfather's funeral and my little sister's wedding, and I did other really rotten stuff because I was trying to be a devotee of Maharaji. But, we were deluded and we did what we thought was right. There is no undoing it now, but it's much healthier to bring all this stuff up into the light of day and see it for what it is. Hey, we were trying to be sincere. Like somebody wrote below, we bought the lemon used car from Maharaji because we trusted him and that was a big mistake. But it wasn't because we were malevolent or devious, it was because we were idealistic, sincere, very young, suggestible, had a desire for something 'more,' to know the truth, to know who or what god was, and to be happy. There is nothing wrong in any of that, but it can be USED by charlatans like Maharaji for their own selfish ends. And what's worse, it appears he is still trying to do it. That's why it's so important for people like you to tell your story. Not only for yourself, but others as well. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 14:39:54 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: JW Subject: Very well said, JW (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 29, 1998 at 18:42:26 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Bill Cooper Subject: I was a premie Fuckwit Message: Dear Bill - Your story made me cry. I hope you are OK today, and and are not feeling too awful about what happened. There are two things that I see that you did that were RIGHT: -You did what you thought was the right thing to do. You loved your mother enought to do what you thought what was the best thing for her. That really counts, believe me. -You stayed there, being with and touching your mother, while she died. I think this is really important, and I am sure that it meant a lot to your mom, and was very comforting. I hope you give yourself credit for that. Bill, I am really sorry about your mom's death, but I DON'T think you were a fuckwit. I think you were a loving son who tried to do what he thought was best for his mom. I hope that you feel all right about this. I think you're a really good person. Lots of love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 10:29:40 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Katie & Bill Subject: Right on target... Message: Katie: You said it. I couldn't agree more! Bill: YOU ARE NOT a fuckwit. As one who lost a parent early in my life, I can tell you that I wish I had the chance to hold my mom in her last moments. No matter what, I think that one act was probably the most important thing that YOU could have done for her. I'm also quite certain that if there were any way to comfort her in her last moments, YOU ACCOMPLISHED IT! Don't be hard on yourself for doing what you honestly believed was the right thing to do. BEING THERE was the most important thing... TRUST ME! If you have any doubts about this, think about 'hospice' and its purpose! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 09:19:37 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Bill Cooper Subject: It could have been much worse Message: Bill, I agree with everyone here in that there are lots of reasons you shouldn't feel guilty (but accept that there are still a few you should). I think, on a practical level, you can just be thankful that, realistically, you probably did nothing at all to either hurt or disappoint your mother. It was in all likelihood her final moments no matter what and what you did was, in a sense, no different than imposing your own sacred form of 'last rites'. It could have been worse. Imagine how a Jehovah's Witness might feel if they ever woke up from that cult after depriving a loved one of the chance for a blood transfusion. Now that WOULD be a horse of an entirely different colour. A real nightmare, I guess you could say. Not that it sounds like you're really doing so, but please, don't ever think your behaviour was anything like that. It wasn't. You know, while we're talking about this I have to ask you, did you feel guilty in another way? Did you feel guilty that you'd 'revealed the techniques' for whatever reason? I ask because this is something I've often wondered about: would I have felt that I could 'give Knowledge' to someone back then in desparate circumstances without Maharaji's agya? What did you think? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 15:55:40 (EST)
From: Bill Cooper Email: None To: Jim Subject: It could have been much worse Message: Thanks to all for the very helpful comments. It's been a funny couple of weeks with old memories popping to the surface. At the time Jim I didn't really think about Maharajis Agya, I just didn't want my mother to die not having fulfilled the purpose of her life ( to receive knowledge ). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 16:32:58 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Bill Cooper Subject: It could have been much worse Message: Bill, you're love for your mother forgives you ten times over for any fuckwit thing you might have done. I really hope that you don't crucify yourself for dumb things you've done in the past. You seem like a good person. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 20:47:53 (EST)
From: Laura Email: None To: Bill Cooper Subject: I was a premie Fuckwit Message: Dear Bill, I read your post with great sadness. You have moved far beyond the young man who sincerely tryed to help his mother in the best way he knew how. Because you were a loving, open-hearted person, looking for truth, you accepted Maharaj Ji and his lies. Those people who never responded to GM are of a different ilk. How could someone have not responded to his message in those days? I had a similar experience with my mother about three years ago. I actually 'pulled the plug', believing that since I had superior knowledge and she really wasn't going to 'die', she was going to GM, that I had every right to do that. I'm still reliving this and regretting my actions. I believe we have to forgive ourselves. My mother and yours, I sincerely hope, have already forgiven us. Thank you again for sharing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 08:32:25 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Laura Subject: I was a premie Fuckwit Message: Bill, Your caring for your mother is obvious. You wanted her to have something you thought was great and tried to give her that. David is right, there was probably nothing you could have done to help her (did you even know CPR back then?) You made her comfortable in her last moments, even if your motivation was misguided. I'm really sorry that your mother is gone. I know that must be hard. Laura, Thanks for sharing that. You also did what you thought was the right thing. I don't know the specifics of your mother's situation, but 'pulling the plug' can sometimes be the most humane thing for the person on the machine and for the family. Even though your mom didn't go to Maharaji, that is ok. I'm sorry you lost your mom and hope you are ok. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 13:11:15 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Laura Subject: To Laura Message: Dear Laura - thanks for telling us about your mom - I'm sorry that that happened to you. I had to make a similar decision about my dad, and it's very difficult to know if you are doing the right thing. I do know that hospitals will almost always NOT give you (the family member) the option of 'pulling the plug' unless it's a pretty hopeless situation. In my case, I knew certainly it was what my father would have wanted but I still felt guilty about it for a long time. I hope you are OK. BTW, everyone I have talked to since I had to make the decision about my dad says that they WANT their plug pulled if that option is available (some hospitals don't allow it).. I also encourage people to make living wills so that their relatives can know for sure what you want. Take care, Laura Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 22:26:10 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: To Laura Message: I meant to mention something to you earlier. My spouses' aunt had to make the same decision for her husband. It was difficult for her, but ended up being the best thing for everyone. Katie is right, things are hopeless for the person before the docs even consider this. Thinking of you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |